14 10 181 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sierra Jenkins Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Geoffrey Gilmore OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Black Student Center OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Gilmore, Geoffrey. Interview April 14th, 2021. SC027-04 01:12:56 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection Campus oral histories CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; csusm Black Student Center student success California State University San Marcos Black experience Geoffrey Gilmore Sierra Jenkins moving image GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5092b218abace83b431090029a7e6156.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 36 Childhood Gilmore briefly discusses his childhood growing up in Seattle and his feeling of isolation without close family. Seattle ; Los Angeles ; isolation ; family 0 177 Developing an understanding of Blackness Gilmore speaks about how his understanding of blackness came mostly from books, documentaries, lectures, and his family and peers. self-education ; informal education 0 300 Learning about Black history and the Black experience in childhood and adolescence Gilmore talks about her exposure to Black history in school, which was largely misinformation and seen through a lens of whiteness. Black history ; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Malcom X ; Civil Rights Movement ; Black Panthers ; power ; teacher 0 680 College experience Gilmore reflects on his time in college at Washington State University. In contrast to his earlier education experience, he was able to take Black studies courses and interact with a diversity of Black people. He talks in length about a television series titled “Them” and how its premise and conclusion has impacted him. Black history ; Black studies ; Black and white relations ; Them television series ; racism ; power dynamic 0 1703 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements Gilmore reflects on his main philosophy that is Black empowerment through education. He has spent his career helping students to realize how they can succeed in education and in their careers. educational philosophy ; student success ; empowerment through education ; student struggle ; student learning ; remedial education 0 2624 Early focus of the Black Student Center's initiatives, programming, events Gilmore speaks about many events sponsored by the Black Student Center. From his perspective, the main purpose of the Center was to be focused on education and student success. Black Student Center ; education ; learning ; events ; Kwanzaa ; Black Panters ; Tulsa Massacre ; Black health 0 2992 Gilmore's role in establishing the Black Student Center Gilmore speaks about his role in establishing the Center, including his initial oversight of the Center. From his perspective, the main purpose of the Center was to be focused on education and student success. Black Student Center ; student success ; Dr. Gail Cole-Avent ; John Rawlins III ; Jake Northington ; organizational structure 0 3147 The process of creating the Black Student Center Gilmore discusses the initial push by students for a Black Student Center. Black Student Center ; meeting ; President Karen Haynes ; formal request 0 3295 Leaders of the Black Student Center project, their contributions, and unsung heroes Gilmore mentions how to find a list of people who were involved in establishing the Black Student Center. He also talks about the faculty and staff working behind the scenes on this student-driven initiative Black Student Center website ; CSUSM faculty ; CSUSM staff ; student-driven 0 3441 University Administration’s vision for the Black Student Center Gilmore speaks about the priorities for the Black Student Center being student success, engagement, and involvement. The Black Student Center was moved from Student Academic Support Services to Student Life. Black Student Center ; student success ; student engagement ; Student Academic Support Services ; Student Life 0 3607 Opposition to the creation of the Black Student Center Gilmore briefly speaks to campus worries about the establishment of a Black Student Center on campus. Black Student Center ; white student center ; pushback 0 3732 Experiencing the Grand Opening of the Black Student Center/BSC's impact on the campus communitiy Gilmore reflects on the grand opening of the Center, especially the emphasis on creating relationships with the local Black community. grand opening ; relationships ; local service area ; Black Student Unions ; pipeline ; community members ; careers ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Jack and Jill organization ; conference 0 4118 Personal impact of the Black Student Center on Gilmore Gilmore reflects on how the educational events and connection with students in the Black Student Center impacted him. educational events ; student connection 0 4273 Future expectations of the Black Student Center Future expectations of the Black Student Center. Gilmore shares his expectation for taking the Black Student Center to the next level. Dr. Gail Cole-Avent ; John Rawlins III ; student success ; graduation 0 oral history Dr. Geoffry Gilmore specifically touches on the issues of Black people within academic spaces and his experience helping students to succeed on a university level. Dr. Gilmore also discusses his own history as he moved from Los Angeles to Seattle, and back to California. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:01:00.000 Today is Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at two zero eight p.m. I am Sierra Jenkins, student at CSU San Marcos, and today I'm interviewing Dr. Geoffrey Gilmore for the Black Student Center oral history project, a collaboration of the CSUSM Black Student Canter and CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Dr. Gilmore, thank you for being here with me today. How are you doing? Geoffrey Gilmore: I'm doing well. Thank you. Jenkins: Glad to hear it. So I'm just gonna' jump right in. So our first question for today is where were you born and where did you grow up? Gilmore: I was born in, I was born in, in Los Angeles, California, and I grew up in Seattle, Washington. Jenkins: How was it growing up in Seattle as compared to Los Angeles? Gilmore: It was different, you know, it was, you know, it was a lot, it was a lot different. 00:01:00.000 --> 00:02:00.000 It was isolating in the sense that, in the sense that, that the family that we had here in California was very expansive. We have a lot of family who had migrated and settled and stayed in the Los Angeles area for a long time. And so I've got a lot of family in the Los Angeles area and particularly in Pasadena, California, and you know, in Washington, when we moved up there, that wasn't the case. I think, a little later on, we had a couple of cousins 00:02:00.000 --> 00:03:00.000 who were up there, but, who had moved up there, but other than that there wasn't, there were not, there were not that many. So yeah, it was different. Jenkins: How old were you when you moved to Seattle? Gilmore: I was, I was very young. I was four years old. Jenkins: Okay. And how old were you when you moved back out to California? Gilmore: When I moved back to California, I was, I was 30. Jenkins: Oh, wow. So you definitely grew up in Seattle completely. Gilmore: Right. Jenkins: How did you come to your understanding of Blackness? Gilmore: A lot of it, I would say a lot of it came from 00:03:00.000 --> 00:04:00.000 experience and then there was, family as well. And then on top of that, there was the education I received. And I will emphasize that when I say education, I'm not talking about education in the formal sense of school, although school did attempt to educate me to accept what the role that society had actually established for Black people in this country. But, you know, it was more so self-education, as well as informal 00:04:00.000 --> 00:05:00.000 experiences, where maybe peers or other members within the Black community had actually referred me to information from different books, documentaries, and, having attended different lectures, all that kind of stuff. So educationally, it was largely informal but then, of course, like I said, there's the life experience as well as, the education that came from family. Jenkins: Thank you for that. What were you taught in childhood and adolescence about Black history and the Black experience? Gilmore: It's 00:05:00.000 --> 00:06:00.000 interesting that you asked that question. Really when it came down to Black experience, what I was educated is that in school in particular, is that Black people are in a lower social class than white people. And really than anybody else in the world that we are at the bottom when it comes to when it comes to social class, based on race and was also educated--actually, I'll tell you what--I'll tell you a story that sort of underscores what that was. I can remember, I believe it may have been 00:06:00.000 --> 00:07:00.000 in the fourth grade that this really occurred. We were learning about, I guess, quote, Black history in the classroom, and it was all about slavery and the struggle of the Black people in the Civil Rights Movement, and how Martin Luther King was this great person because he encouraged the struggle to be non-violent, whereas Malcolm X and the Black Panthers were violent, racist, haters of white people and wanted to kill white people and 00:07:00.000 --> 00:08:00.000 all this kind of stuff. And as she went into that part of our education, I can remember that one of the white students in the class had raised his hand and asked the teacher a question, and the question that he asked was if we were to ever let Black people have power then would they put us in slavery and do the same things to us that we've done to them. And the teacher thought about the question for a moment and really her answer to that question reinforced what the intention 00:08:00.000 --> 00:09:00.000 of that lesson was, right? And really, reinforced what the whole message about power in this country is all, as it pertains to race, is all about. And her answer to the question was you know that's a really good question. I don't know. And so the thing is, just in looking at, in really unpacking that question and what the student was asking, first of all just in asking, if we ever let Black people have power, first of all, that means that the white people have the 00:09:00.000 --> 00:10:00.000 power, and the only way that Black people can ever have power is if the white people let Black people have power. Right? And so that's the first thing. And then, the second thing was this fear that what they have imposed on Black people would be reciprocated back to them and all of that. Right? And just in what the teacher was saying all of that message was the message that she clearly intended to get across given the answer to that question. And that answer basically confirmed that, yes, her intent was to--what's to say that white people have all the power 00:10:00.000 --> 00:11:00.000 and the only way Black people can ever have power is if white people let them have power? And that it is a real fear of white people that Black people with power would return the evil that has been imposed on our people. So that was the gist of the formal education that I was given about Black people in school. And I can tell you that really from year to year moving on from there, and even before that, that was the message that was being delivered. That was the, that was what we were being educated to 00:11:00.000 --> 00:12:00.000 believe. Jenkins: That's horrible. That's such an interesting story to have experienced in fourth grade. What did you learn after adolescence prior to coming to CSUSM? Gilmore: Well, there's a whole lot of time in between adolescence and CSUSM. So, I would say--I guess you're talking about, after I left high school, correct? Jenkins: Yes. Gilmore: Okay. So when I left high school and went to college, it was different. And it was different in the sense that while 00:12:00.000 --> 00:13:00.000 attending a predominantly white college, or university, I also, the company I kept was largely Black. We had a sizable enough Black community at Washington State that really was who I was with the majority of the time I was there, you know? And so educationally speaking, it was different in the sense that, at this point I'm actually--I could actually take Black studies courses 00:13:00.000 --> 00:14:00.000 and actually learn more in a formal educational setting about Black people in this country and around the world. On top of that, there was the informal education, that was in the same vein, along the same vein of what I had mentioned before with peers and with other people in the community and what--really just being referred to different books, different documentaries, all that kind of stuff. And even in special lectures and all that kind of stuff. And even that, 00:14:00.000 --> 00:15:00.000 looking at a lot of these things on my own, that was a big part, but also, I would say that interacting with people who had come to Washington State from a continent, that was a huge educational experience in itself as well. And to be able to learn more about the continent and about what had, what had actually gone on the continent beyond slavery, beyond the slave trade, was a very illuminating experience. And so that kind of gets back to your previous 00:15:00.000 --> 00:16:00.000 question about what I learned about Black people growing up. And one thing that I would say that I walked away from my K-12 experience with was the warped understanding that Africa was all about National Geographic or apartheid, one of the two. And so therefore, my perspective was that anybody from, anybody who I met from Africa, either lived in apartheid under the apartheid system, being oppressed by white people, or they live like National Geographic in the bush. And that was my understanding 00:16:00.000 --> 00:17:00.000 coming out of high school and it was very illuminating to be able to go to college and actually get to know and interact with people who had come over to the United States from the continent and get their college education at Washington State like I did. And in doing that, that understanding or that misunderstanding, and that miseducation as to what Africa was all about was dispelled definitively in the--through those interactions. 00:17:00.000 --> 00:18:00.000 And I would have to say that what, in learning about what had actually occurred in various places around the continent over, around the continent that I came to realize that I'd been lied to, and it's that sort of thing to where when you have a--let's say if you're talking to your parents growing up and they asked you a question about what happened and you give them a part of the story but not the whole story as to what happened and what are they going to say? They're going to say that you lied. Right? And essentially 00:18:00.000 --> 00:19:00.000 that's what happened in my educational experience, that a part of the story that really made them look good or powerful maybe--I wouldn't even say look good because much of our story in this country as it pertains to Black and white race relations much of that is rooted in pure evil, you know? And I don't know if you've seen that, the Lovecraft Country show, or if you've seen Them, which just came out on Amazon Prime. Jenkins: I've heard a lot about it, and I haven't heard the best of things. 00:19:00.000 --> 00:20:00.000 And that's what kind of pushed me away from it. 'Cause it has a lot of our trauma on screen and some of that can be triggering. So I kind of stayed away from it. I've planned to watch Lovecraft, 'cause I know that that one has more of a better ending, but I've heard that Them doesn't really come to a conclusion--that it, it's kind of just like our trauma for entertainment. Gilmore: Them had a conclusion. Jenkins: Oh, it did? Gilmore: Yes, it did. And it had a very powerful conclusion at that. And I would say that as far as that show is concerned, that it is important for us to watch that, the creator's expression of 00:20:00.000 --> 00:21:00.000 the Black experience, is through that, through that program because the creator really nailed the trauma as you put it of the Black experience in this country 100%, and the way in which he did it, in my opinion, was pure genius, you know? So, I would highly, highly, highly recommend it, very highly recommend it. It was difficult to watch, and it was painful in much--I would say the majority of it was painful, but the way in which it ended, it ended 00:21:00.000 --> 00:22:00.000 with power, and again, I most definitely wholeheartedly recommend that show. There's a lot to unpack in that show. And one of the things about it is that we recognize our experience and the experience of those who came before us because I'll tell you one of the things about watching something like that, right? Is where we can hear about the experiences that the people who came before us went through, right? But to really see it and to really understand it is a whole 'nother thing. And to really get down to the 00:22:00.000 --> 00:23:00.000 evil of racism that has existed in our country and still exists in our country is critical for us to really wake up and determine our place in the society. Really the way in which the system has been set up and continues to be set up is that we're supposed to know our place in a society. We're supposed to know our role and stay in it, you know? And that's the way that it's designed. But if we're all to also understand that the, 00:23:00.000 --> 00:24:00.000 really the power to determine what our role is going to be in society and take that role on, the power to do that actually lies within ourselves to make that determination and to and stand by it, you know? And so that's where I think that this program really hit the nail on the head and really delivered that message. And the other thing, too, is that it's one of those things where I was watching--in watching the show, 00:24:00.000 --> 00:25:00.000 it made me think about my grandfather, right? And I had to go back and really think about what the kinds of things that my grandparents would say about their experiences and what their attitudes were. You know, what about this society and about what was and was not possible, all kinds of stuff, right? And in doing that, I actually just on a whim typed my grandfather's name into Google and looked up 00:25:00.000 --> 00:26:00.000 --and was trying to look up and see if there was any information there about him and about that time, and in doing so, I came across an article that was about my great-grandmother in the LA (Los Angeles) Times. And the article was really just a human interest piece that was talking about her because she had turned a hundred and really, in coming to California, that's where a lot of family just actually just came from her and is in the Los Angeles area as a result. 00:26:00.000 --> 00:27:00.000 And there was one part in there where they were talking to her, and she was talking about coming to California and how--from the deep South--and how that, and how, in some ways what she experienced in California was worse than what she experienced in the deep South. And that's where it--that show really resonated because that's what the show is centered on. Centered on Black people coming to California from the South. And moving into neighborhoods that are 00:27:00.000 --> 00:28:00.000 predominantly, if not all white. And how they were and how they were received. And so I can--it gave a picture as to what may have been behind that statement, you know? Yeah. So-- Jenkins: I’ll try it. I will, but 'cause my grandma, she also had a similar experience. She came from Seattle to California around the fifties. And so, but she lived in like a Black area. She, yeah. Gilmore: Okay. Jenkins: How has Black social justice and activism such as the Civil Rights Movement, feminism, the natural hair movement, and Black Lives Matter affected you? 00:28:00.000 --> 00:29:00.000 Hmm. How has it affected me? Jenkins: Yes. Gilmore: You know, I'll tell you what, when I was in school, I was very much involved in social justice and activism on our campus at Washington State. I would also say that when it comes to 00:29:00.000 --> 00:30:00.000 my life beyond college, it has taken on a different form than the activism that I was involved in when I was a student in school. And the form that it is taken on has been more so in my work, right? And so we can look at that basically, given that I've been in education, it's been more about empowerment through education, and that has actually been a philosophy that I have, 00:30:00.000 --> 00:31:00.000 that has, that has grounded in my work. That philosophy of empowerment through education has grounded my work. And that would be through math, through writing, through--and really through looking at ourselves and looking at our history and where we come from and also looking at the possibilities of where we can go and--if we so desire and how to get there. And that's where I would say that connecting the students to resources, helping students to see that 00:31:00.000 --> 00:32:00.000 what they may have thought was out of reach when it comes to their education is actually actually tangible. It's possible to learn this stuff. And one of the things--we talk a lot about impostor syndrome. That's something, that's a term that I've heard used quite a bit when it comes to people not realizing or understanding that they can actually learn what's there and that it's not a reflection of their intelligence or ability that they struggle with certain 00:32:00.000 --> 00:33:00.000 material because the thing is that when it comes down to it, say for instance, we struggling with math, right? And I've heard so many students saying that I'm just not good at math. Right? And the thing to understand there is that there's no such thing as not being good at math. The thing to understand is that you are in school and in being in school, you're here to learn. And the fact that you don't know the information that is being presented to you in the classroom--is not--that's the way it's supposed to be, right? Because you're here to learn it, you know? And so you're not going into the classroom already knowing how to do what they're presenting to you. 00:33:00.000 --> 00:34:00.000 Otherwise you're wasting your time. If you're just sitting there to showcase that you know how to do stuff that--and and basically pay him money to take a class, to show you how to do stuff that you already know how to do, you know? And so that is--that has been what a large part of what I've done after college. One thing, for instance, was at Washington State, I was Director of the Freshman Seminar Program at Washington State for a while. And while I was doing that I was called by the athletics department. Right? And they had all these football players 00:34:00.000 --> 00:35:00.000 during the summertime who were taking a math course that they were failing. And in order to be eligible to play in the fall, they absolutely had to pass this class. And so they called me in to help them pass the--help them with the math and to help them pass the class. And so I did that and what we ended up doing was we ended up addressing the concepts that they were being presented in that class. And as they address those concepts, they gained, they started gaining understanding of how these things work, of how the concepts that they were being presented with work and on how to use those--and how and when to use the different concepts that they were being given 00:35:00.000 --> 00:36:00.000 and what they ended up discovering was that the knowledge that they had previously thought was unreachable and was out of--and unattainable was actually accessible and that all they had to do was the learning, right? And so coming to that understanding that just because I don't know what's--what this is all about going into it, doesn't mean that I can't learn it. Right? And what you ended up seeing was that with this, in this classroom full of football players, who I was working with, who are majority Black, finding out that that knowledge was accessible and actually coming to that understanding of what this 00:36:00.000 --> 00:37:00.000 education was all about, what you saw them do after that experience was consider the possibilities for their own lives and start to see that, well, Hey, maybe I can be a doctor, or maybe I can be an engineer. And what you saw was you saw these students changing their majors from general studies, or from social sciences, just anything that they had signed up for because they were told that it was going to be easier for them to do while they were playing football and change their majors to physics or to engineering or to pre-med and--or other fields that they thought might be 00:37:00.000 --> 00:38:00.000 of interest or might--that they might want to go into. And that was that empowerment, right? To where it's like coming to that understanding then they ended up really taking a look at their own lives and their own direction and determining where they were going to go. And for the next few years after that I would see those same students, those same football players, progressing through the different levels of math. They started out at the class that I was helping them with was considered a remedial math course, right? And in taking that class, they then 00:38:00.000 --> 00:39:00.000 advanced to the next level and then to the next level. And were taking calculus two, calculus three, depending on what their major was asking for and approaching it from that standpoint of learning. And to this day, a couple of those students are actually doctors to that--medical doctors. There's, another one that I know of who did and end up becoming an engineer and then there was, I think there were a couple others who went into business and actually started their own businesses and are successful in doing so. So that's what I'm talking about when it comes to empowerment through education. And even when I got here 00:39:00.000 --> 00:40:00.000 at Cal State San Marcos that was the thing that I was brought into address. I was brought into address math and writing. And in particular, those students who were coming into the university with a knowledge foundation that was below the college level, so it was a matter of helping those students to get up to speed with what they needed to know to do--to be successful in school. Right? And that's what I did. And that was actually one of the things that I had told--that I would tell students as they came into the university. And I would tell these students and you would see it, too, when it came down to actually talking to the students, what, you 00:40:00.000 --> 00:41:00.000 would see that in orientation, when they dismissed the students who did not need to attend the discussion on what was called remedial math or writing, then the students who were left were largely Black and Latino. And on any given day, that would--orientation day, when I would speak to the students, it would be the case. And that's the thing that I would that I will conclude with when I would talk to them, after telling them about the requirements, after telling them about the classes that they would have to take, and addressing all of those things. 00:41:00.000 --> 00:42:00.000 I would tell them to take a look at the name badges, where their test scores were printed out--the placement scores--and where the classes that they would have to take were listed and the--their requirement for early start was on there as well. And I would tell them that this is the most important thing that I was going to tell them out of that whole presentation. And in looking at that, their name badges with their test scores in those classes, I would tell them those scores and those classes are not a reflection of your intelligence, nor are they a reflection of your ability, but they are a reflection of what you know and what you don't know right now. And all of that that I just presented 00:42:00.000 --> 00:43:00.000 is, it's about what you are required to learn and to understand that when you are learning new knowledge, that that learning experience is supposed to be a struggle. And so the fact that you may have struggled with math and writing in the past, that does not mean that you are not good at it. It just means that you've come across some knowledge that you don't know right now, but you can learn it and that we're here to support you in learning it. And as a result of that, seeing countless students go through, starting at the, from the lowest levels of math and go on into, going into fields that they thought were not accessible to them just like the, those football players. Same with students who were, who needed 00:43:00.000 --> 00:44:00.000 a stronger foundation in writing, same kind of thing. And in doing so, helping them to think about what it was that they wanted to do and how it is that they can leverage what they were learning in the classroom to actually do those things that they wanted to do, you know? So that was the, that was what, has been in large part what my experience has been since leaving the state of Washington. There's been more and, as you know, I was a part of actually helping to establish the Black Student Center here at Cal State San Marcos, as well. And so when, that was 00:44:00.000 --> 00:45:00.000 in large part from the, from an administrative standpoint, but at the same time also setting the tone from an educational standpoint as to what the Center was to, what it was to be about, which was education, right? And learning and advancing yourself to go back into the community and build up the community. And so, when they were, there were quite a few things that we did to actually do that through the Black Student Center. One, I would say, was through 00:45:00.000 --> 00:46:00.000 a lot of the educational events that we put on. One of those events was that we brought a panel of Black Panthers to the University to speak on their experiences and what that was all about. And we also had a photography display up in the Library, where you had all these pictures of Black Panthers and narratives where they were telling their stories and their experiences in the movement. We also had an event where we, what we brought the founder of Kwanzaa to the University to preside over the Kwanzaa ceremony and to also educate us on where it came from 00:46:00.000 --> 00:47:00.000 and why it was, why was it established here in this country. We also brought in some people who, from Tulsa, Oklahoma, to talk about the Tulsa Massacre you know where--and I'm sure you've probably heard you, you're probably knowledgeable of that history. And it was those kinds of things that we did to really create a learning environment about the Black experience, as well as establishing a forum 00:47:00.000 --> 00:48:00.000 within the Black Student Center for students to exchange knowledge and also to learn from each other with what they were learning in the classroom and to help uplift each other in that sense. Another thing that we did was to also address the Black experience, whether that be in general or whether that be on this campus. And to really help students to come to an understanding of what it is that they're going through, and what it is that is happening with them 00:48:00.000 --> 00:49:00.000 when it comes to stress, when it comes to their interactions with others, and to understand that what they may be experiencing is not abnormal, and that there are many of us, have, and do experience the same things. You know, we brought in a psychologist from Student Health and Counseling Services to come in and talk about Black stress and how as Black people, there is so much that we carry around on a daily basis that 00:49:00.000 --> 00:50:00.000 is a huge contributor to the high blood pressure that many of us experience to the hypertension that many of us experience and into our general health. And so those are the kinds of things that we did with the, in establishing the Black Student Center. Jenkins: That definitely goes into my next questions that are all centered on the Black Student Center. So you touched on, kind of what, how, what you guys have done now that it's already created, but what role did you play in the beginning or the creation of the Black Student Center? Gilmore: So the Black Student Center was actually established in my area, 00:50:00.000 --> 00:51:00.000 which is Student Academic Support Services. Right? And so, you know Dr. Cole-Avent, right? Oh, you don't know Dr. Cole-Avent-- Jenkins: --I'm new, I'm like very new. Like I started fall 2020, so we've already, we've been in, quarantine and Zoom school, so I haven't gotten to know anybody in any fundamental way. Gilmore: Sure. Okay. So, but you know, Mr. Rawlins, John Rawlins? Jenkins: Yes. I met him and I also met Jake (Northington). Gilmore Okay. So Dr. Cole-Avent is Mr. Rawlins' direct supervisor. Right? And so I was 00:51:00.000 --> 00:52:00.000 essentially, when the Black Student Center was established, I was in that role, to where the Black Student Center, the Director of the Black Student Center reported to me. Right? And so in establishing the Black Student Center, the, like I had mentioned, the way in which I wanted to approach it was from more of an educational standpoint, more of a educational success standpoint. And with that, with that success, with the end goal of that success, actually being what I previously mentioned about being employed upon graduation and going out into the community and thriving in the community, and 00:52:00.000 --> 00:53:00.000 being that mover and shaker in this society. So that was the role that I played in the establishment of the Black Student Center. Jenkins: Okay. Had you seen a push for the creation of a center before? Gilmore: Had I done what? Jenkins: Had you seen a push for a center before it was created? Gilmore: Yes, actually. And when I was, I was actually at the forum where the president, our previous president, President Haynes, was speaking about the--she was speaking, I believe she may have been being, giving an update on the campus budget to the campus community. And 00:53:00.000 --> 00:54:00.000 there were some Black students who came to that meeting and essentially expressed the need and the desire for a Black Student Center on this campus. And so the president had informed the students that she was open to it and that and that they needed to submit a formal request. And so in the background, I was helping the students who were working on that formal request with the information that they needed to support that request. And so 00:54:00.000 --> 00:55:00.000 more information about the Black experience on this campus. And how students were performing in their classes on this campus and what a Black Student Center would do to bolster the success of Black students at CSUSM. Jenkins: It definitely sounds like you were one of the leaders in the creation of the Black Student Center. Were there anyone that worked on this project and their contributions, including any unsung heroes we may not know about? Gilmore: There were quite a few, and so 00:55:00.000 --> 00:56:00.000 I would say a lot of the people who were involved in the and actually establishing the Black Student Center at Cal State San Marcos are listed on the website under the history of the Black Student Center. So you can find a lot of the names there. As far as unsung heroes are concerned, I would say that there were quite a few faculty and staff who worked 00:56:00.000 --> 00:57:00.000 in the background in supporting the students to help them get the Center established, you know? And so this was in large part, it was a student-driven thing. Establishing a Black Student Center, it was definitely student driven, but at the same time, it was supported and--it was supported by a lot of our Black faculty and staff on this campus. Jenkins: Okay, awesome. What did the university administration communicate was their vision? You kind of already touched on this, that it was 00:57:00.000 --> 00:58:00.000 mainly education. And was there anything else that they envisioned? Gilmore: Yes. Let me, I'll tell you what, when it comes to the vision, right? I would say that student success was a large part of that. So students actually being successful in their classes and also going on into careers. 00:58:00.000 --> 00:59:00.000 That was a large part of it being in my area ; whereas, the other piece that they really wanted to be more emphasized was the student engagement piece and the student involvement piece, right? And so that's where you have it moving from Student Academic Support Services over to Student Life. And so now the emphasis, at least in the vision of the institution, 00:59:00.000 --> 01:00:00.000 really wanted to make this more, make the students, the Black Student Center, have more of a student engagement and student life emphasis. I don't--and that's not to say that there's no interest in student success and that that educational aspect is not is no longer a part of that part of that vision. But that's the vision that the institution really wanted to emphasize was the student life and student involvement aspect. Jenkins: Okay. When it came to the creation of the BSC, was there external or institutional pushback, and did you 01:00:00.000 --> 01:01:00.000 experience or witness any pushback on the creation of the Center within the Center or on social media? Gilmore: Well, I can answer the social media question right now. And that is that I didn't see anything on social media for the simple fact that I'm not on social media, so I try to keep my digital footprint pretty light. So I can't speak to what may have been going on social media. But one thing that I can say that I heard repeatedly was doesn't establishing a Black Student Center doesn't that, isn't that encourage more division and more in isolation of our Black students instead of folding them into the fabric 01:01:00.000 --> 01:02:00.000 of the entire campus community? And if we're going to have a Black Student Center, then why not a white student center? That was another thing that I heard. And then another thing that I heard was a worry that other groups might want a center as well. So what if the Asian students start asking for a center and all that kind of stuff and that was the, those were the type--kinds of things that I heard when it came to pushback. 01:02:00.000 --> 01:03:00.000 Yeah. I would just leave it at that, that was, those were the kinds of things that I heard. Jenkins: Okay. Were you at the BSC's grand opening? Gilmore: I was. Jenkins: Okay. What was your experience? Gilmore: I thought that it was a great experience. It was very celebratory experience. There were a lot of people who came out from the community and a lot of different constituents from our community in the area. Were very pleased to see this, the Black Student Center opening, and were actually very involved in what was going on in the Center. And it was one of those things where 01:03:00.000 --> 01:04:00.000 it opened the door to connect with a lot of people in our local service area to interact with our students. And, like one of the things, when you were talking about vision, one of the things we really wanted to do was to create relationships with the schools within our local service area, which extends from San Diego up to Riverside and Orange County. So we were in, we were engaging with schools as far out as 01:04:00.000 --> 01:05:00.000 Hemet and connecting with the BSU’s (Black Student Unions) that they had out there and in, Hemet, Murrieta, and Menifee, and going into Poway and right here in San Marcos and Oceanside and all over the local service area. And we were connecting with Black students and with Black community organizations and with the teachers and administrators and counselors who were working with the different student groups to really establish that connection in an attempt to 01:05:00.000 --> 01:06:00.000 create a pipeline into the University from those entities. And so that was a big part of it. Another part of it was in connecting with community members, one of the things that we also wanted to establish was a pipeline out of the University. And so what we wanted to do was to bring in various community members in different--in a wide range of professions--to come in and talk to the students and provide the, provide insight into different careers 01:06:00.000 --> 01:07:00.000 and in different professional fields for the students to be able to see themselves in those areas. And so that was one of the things that that grand opening really did was allow us to make those, allow us to make those connections and really build on those connections. Another thing that we did was we connected with the North County chapter of the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People). We connected with North County chapters of different NPHC (National Pan-Hellenic Council) organizations. So, and have those organizations different, doing different activities with the students on our campus. And one 01:07:00.000 --> 01:08:00.000 of the things that they were doing was in really promoting voting, so that was one just an example of one of the things that the community brought to the table. Another thing that we did was, it was, we connected with the Jack and Jill organization (a membership organization of mothers with children ages 2-19, dedicated to nurturing future African-American leaders), and they ended up having their national conference at CSUSM. So you had all of these Black students from all over, in fact, I saw people from the state of Washington who came in and people who I knew who came in and were a part of that. And it was a 01:08:00.000 --> 01:09:00.000 huge and very empowering experience to see and be a part of. So yeah, those were the things. Jenkins: The more I'm hearing about the grand opening of the BSC, I wish I was there, you know? Gilmore: Yes. Jenkins: We didn't have anything like that at CSUN (California State University Northridge), so it just sounds really amazing. My next question is what has been the impact of the BSC on you personally? Gilmore: The impact of the BSC on me personally. You know, I would say that the impact on me personally 01:09:00.000 --> 01:10:00.000 has been that, I too have been able to receive from the types of educational events that we put on and to learn from those events about things that I didn't know about and so education is, was a big part. Or has been a big part. The other very big part and was being able to connect with the students, you know? And so because I had the Black Student Center in my area then that was one of the places where I would come in and actually spend time with students. 01:10:00.000 --> 01:11:00.000 And I would say that, in my role, student interaction is something that doesn't occur as often as I would like. And so having oversight of the Black Student Center actually gave me the opportunity to interact with our students a whole lot more. And so that would--so those would be those things. And then also, as I mentioned, the connections around the community that were established. Those would be the impacts that the 01:11:00.000 --> 01:12:00.000 Black Center has had on me personally. Jenkins: Amazing. What do you expect to see next for the BSC? Gilmore: Well, I see the Black Student Center really just going to the next level under the direction of Mr. Rawlins and Dr. Cole-Avent. And really seeing the two of them bring to fruition the kinds of things that we've been talking about here, which is really that student success and also engaging students in those very meaningful 01:12:00.000 --> 01:12:56.000 activities and experiences that would contribute to their success as students and also to their success as professionals as they get ready to graduate and leave this University. Jenkins: (Unintelligible) Are there any questions I should have asked that I didn't? Gilmore: I think you have done an excellent job of asking questions in this interview and I can't think of anything. Jenkins: Awesome. Thank you. Let me see what I have here. Well, thank you for very much for your time today. And thanks for being a part of this project. We all really appreciate it. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.xml GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Gilmore, Geoffrey. Interview April 14th, 2021. Description An account of the resource Dr. Geoffrey Gilmore played a key role in the development of the Black Student Center at CSUSM. In this interview, Gilmore touches on the issues of Black people within academic spaces and his experience helping students to succeed on a university level. Dr. Gilmore also discusses his own history as he moved from Los Angeles to Seattle, and back to California. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-04 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-14 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Geoffrey Gilmore Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sierra Jenkins Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America Activism, Student Anti-Black Racism California State University San Marcos, Black Student Center Student Success, Black Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Los Angeles (Calif.) Seattle (Wash.) San Marcos (Calif.) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Regina Eisenbach OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. higher education;women in leadership;Western Association of Schools and Colleges;mentorship;administration OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Eisenbach, Regina. Interview July 1, 2025. SC027-085 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm higher education ; women in leadership ; Western Association of Schools and Colleges ; mentorship ; administration Regina Eisenbach Jennifer Fabbi moving image EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1b6dd8309f4ca65c7028d0d2f151d601.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 39 Childhood and adolescence Eisenbach reflects on her childhoood. She was born in Puerto Rico but is of Cuban descent. She was very close with her parents. She attended University of Miami for her undergraduate degree. San Juan, Puerto Rico ; Cuban ; only child ; Miami ; Massachusetts ; University of Miami ; Gainesville 0 175 College experience Eisenbach's undergraduate degree was in psychology after which she started a PhD program in Management Studies in the COllege of Business at University of Miami. psychology ; academic ; business ; organizational behavior ; calculus ; Program in Management Studies 0 399 Eisenbach meets her spouse Eisenbach met her husband at the same time as she started her PhD program when she was twenty years old. They have now been together since 1987. Hialeah, Florida ; Madonna ; young ; girlfriend 0 509 Moving to San Marcos Eisenbach found out about a faculty position at CSU San Marcos from her PhD advisor. She interviewed a few places but ended up accepting the job at CSU San Marcos. Her plan was to be in San Marcos for two years and to move back to Miami. Chet Schriesheim ; young woman ; Dean Bernie Hinton ; faculty position ; marriage ; Spanish speaking ; Cal Poly Pomona ; Florida Atlantic University ; Len Jessop 0 878 CSU San Marcos when Eisenbach arrived When Eisenbach arrived at CSUSM, the "campus" was in an office park a few miles away from where the permanent campus would eventually be built. She was an instrumental contributor to the creation of the Business curriculum. She loved teaching, but research more of a challenge for her. College of Business Administration ; San Diego State ; curriculum ; research agenda ; teaching ; service ; Academy of Management ; administration 0 1232 Administrative path Eisenbach started on her path to administration early in her tenure at CSUSM. She reflects on the positions she has held and some of the ups and downs along the way. dean ; interim dean ; Kathleen Watson ; associate dean ; Mohammed Mustafa ; friendships ; challenges ; Dennis Guzman ; work-life balance ; disappointment ; provost ; Graham Oberem ; Patricia Prado-Olmos 0 1919 Role in Academic Programs Eisenbach was named as the Associate Vice President of Academic Programs (now Dean of Academic Programs) in 2013. In this role, she has overseen the academic catalog, the curriculum, assessment, and accreditation. In 2019, academic advising was added to her to her portfolio. catalog ; curriculum ; Western Association of Schools and Colleges ; Accreditation Liaison Officer ; accreditation ; dean ; asessment ; advising ; President Karen Haynes ; student affairs ; academic affairs 0 2112 Evolution of CSUSM After thirty-four years at CSUSM, Eisenbach reflects on its evolution. The building of the physical campus was a key milestone, and she was very closely involved with the building of the Markstein Hall. She also discussed the growth of the student body. Regina expresses her gratitude for getting to be a part of the evolution from the beginning and being able to build CSUSM for future generations. campus ; buildings ; Markstein Hall ; enrollment growth ; City of San Marcos ; infrastructure 0 2304 Becoming an academic Eisenbach discusses her unexpected path to a career as an academic. teacher ; academic struggle ; academic conference ; research 0 2449 High points at CSUSM and impactful work Eisenbach reflects on the high points and low points of her time at CSUSM. Highs include the opening of Markstein Hall, the great people she has worked with, and her son graduating from CSUSM. She also discusses her work and what she thinks has been most impactful. Markstein Hall ; Melissa Simnett ; reaccreditation ; son ; graduation ; Academic Advising ; Academic Programs ; Curriculog ; Acalog ; catalog ; curriculum ; pandemic 0 2742 People who have influenced Eisenbach's career Eisenbach gives credit to colleagues and mentors who have influenced her career over the years. Dennis Guzman ; Beverly Anderson ; mentorship ; women in leadership ; Pat Worden ; President Karen Haynes ; Kamel Haddad ; Graham Oberem ; Dawn Formo ; David Barsky 0 3034 Plans in retirement Eisenbach discusses her professional plans for retirement as she will be participating in the Faculty Early Retirement Program. Faculty Early Retirement Program ; Voluntary Separation Incentive Program ; Western Association of Schools and Colleges ; WASC accreditation teams ; Ecuador 0 Oral history Dr. Regina Eisenbach is retiring from CSUSM as the Dean of Academic Advising and Academic Programs in 2025. After thirty-four years at the University, she shares a rich history of CSUSM’s evolution over time. In this interview, she discusses what brought her to CSUSM, her path to administration, people who have influenced her professionally, and the physical and structural changes to CSUSM through its development. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:23.000 Hello, this is Jennifer Fabbi, and today I'm interviewing Dr. Regina Eisenbach for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History program. Today is July 1st, 2025 at 10:30 a.m. This interview is taking place at Regina's office on the CSU San Marcos campus. Regina, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:26.000 Thank you. I'm honored that you asked. 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:39.000 Okay. So to start off, we'll start young. Can you tell me about your childhood and adolescence, for example, where you were born and a bit about your family? 00:00:39.000 --> 00:02:43.000 Sure. so I was born in San Juan, Puerto Rico by accident. I'm not Puerto Rican, but I'm actually Cuban. I'll get to that in a second. My dad was there on business. My mom went to go see him, and she was bedridden for six months to have me. And so she was in Puerto Rico and got stuck there basically. And so I was born there. I think that's telling because it shows the kind of parents that I had. So I was an only child and they'd lost--my mom miscarried four times before me, and after me, I had a brother who died after a day. And so my parents lost a lot of children. I was the only surviving kid, so they were, (tears up)--didn't think it would start this early. So they were very devoted to me. And you'd say overprotective, but as a young child, it was great. So we lived in, we moved to Miami early on and then moved to Massachusetts for a little bit, came back to Miami. And so I grew up in Miami from second grade all the way through college. And went to the University of Miami because when I graduated from high school, wasn't really ready to leave home. So went there and went to graduate school there as well, because I thought I might wanna' go away to grad school, and a little independence from my parents at that point when I was, you know, twenty or so. And when I said, Yeah, I think I might go to Gainesville or something, they'd say, oh, they said, Okay, we'll come with you. Okay. That defeats the purpose. So I think I will just stay here. And so I did. And so I went straight from my parents' house to my husband's house. I have never lived alone. So that also says a little bit about me. 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:55.000 Okay. So you started to talk a little bit about your education. Can you tell me about your formal education, including your areas of academic focus? 00:02:55.000 --> 00:06:35.000 Yeah, so I my undergraduate degree was in psychology. And I did my undergrad in three years. And so when I was, I graduated from college, I was, I wasn't even--I was twenty and wasn't ready to leave school. So I know some folks say that, you know, they always knew they wanted to be an academic or they always knew they wanted to be such and such. I didn't know what I wanted to do. All I knew is I wasn't ready to leave school. So I was looking for graduate programs. And I got word that this professor over in the College of Business was starting a PhD program in business. It was gonna be brand new in organizational behavior. And I thought, Okay, that's, you know, psychology adjacent, let's check this out. And one of those vivid memories I still remember and he did, too--what I was wearing the day that I went to see him 'cause I was wearing red high top Reebok sneakers. This was in 1980--Lord, '87. So yeah, I swear it was in style then. And I wandered into his office and he said, yeah, we're gonna start this new PhD program, but it'll be great. And so I said, sure, why not? So I got in, it was a full assistantship, so I didn't have to pay for it. I actually didn't have to pay for any of my education. It's something that I look back on. And I think, how did that work? Because my parents didn't make a lot of money. I got lot of scholarships. And so my undergrad was completely covered. And then the PhD program was a full ride. Truly blessed. Didn't really know at the time what a blessing it was. And so I thought, all right, I'll try this. And the PhD program, since it was brand new, I was the first student admitted. And there weren't classes for just us in business, so we took classes--there was, there were only two or three, there were a few IO (industrial organizational) psych students in the program at the time, but there was five of us total, if that. So we would take classes with the other PhD students and other disciplines. But when I started my PhD advisor said, Well, you haven't taken calculus. And I said, Yes, I know. That was intentional. He said, well, business folks have to take calculus. And so I did. As a graduate student, one of my classes was to take calculus with the freshmen. And I got an A minus, I still remember. So that first summer of the PhD program, since I didn't have an undergraduate degree in business, I had to take classes with the MBA students. And it was the name has since changed, but I am not even making this up. The program was called the PMS (laughter) Program in Management Studies. And it was basically a business bootcamp, so really condensed all of the basics of business. And I learned that I hated accounting and I hated economics, and I sucked at it. And I got my first Cs ever in school in those two classes. But overall, you know, I liked school and I liked the--I thought, Okay, I'll, you know, keep doing this. And so that's how I got into the PhD program. It wasn't anything premeditated, which is actually the story of my life. It wasn't a plan. It was just, Eh, this'll work out. 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:39.000 And Regina, when did you meet your husband and where? 00:06:39.000 --> 00:08:19.000 I met him the day after I started the PhD program. So I was twenty years old. We both grew up in the same town in Hialeah, Florida. And met through a mutual friend. He, my friend and my husband worked at Marshall's together. And it was, the Madonna was going on tour, the Who's That Girl concert. And back in the day, he had to sleep in the parking lot. You may even be too young to remember this. You had to sleep in the parking lot to get concert tickets. And so my husband and my friend were sleeping for the Madonna tickets, and I was supposed to meet them in the morning to give them my money for my ticket and stand in line when they bought them. My husband had no idea. He just thought I was coming 'cause I was, you know, Rick--our friend's name was Rick--Rick's friend. And so I showed up. So we met in the parking lot of Westland Mall, very romantic. And I saw him, and the first thing I thought of was, He looks very young. And so I pulled Rick aside. I said, Rick, how old is this guy? He goes, no, I swear he is your age. Okay, great. Turns out he is, he's two days younger than I am. And it was, I mean, for me it was like, wow. Almost love at first sight. And so that was June 6th that we met. And we went out, we started talking on the phone every day. And we went out in a big group on June 12th, and he asked me to be his girlfriend. And we've been together ever since. 1987. 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:29.000 Okay. So how did you find out about the CSU San Marcos faculty position? And what was the process of you moving here? 00:08:29.000 --> 00:14:25.000 So as I mentioned in my retirement speech, like one of those moments that just sticks in your mind. I was standing in my PhD advisor's office and his name was Chet Schriesheim. And my mom, who I alluded to, I'm Cuban. So my mom was raised in Cuba, born in Spain. My dad was Hungarian. And my mom had a very thick accent when she spoke English. And we used to joke that she had her own language 'cause the way she pronounced things so she could not say Schriesheim to save her life. So she called him Shoeshine. And so we all did. So I was standing in Shoeshine's office, and Shoeshine knew my mom called him Shoeshine. We got very close. He became--not that I needed a father 'cause my father was very, very strong presence in my life. But he became a father figure. So much so that his son was the ring bearer at my wedding. And so I was standing in his office and 'cause I was really young at the time, I remember I was, you know, twenty when I started grad school, I was twenty. And so he really, you know, made it a point of raising me in the academy as well as, you know, trying to prepare me for being a young, very young woman in this field. So anyway, I'm standing in his office and he, back then, it was all mail obviously. And so he got a letter from then acting Dean Bernie Hinton, who was founding faculty here who was recruiting. And so he sent letters to all the PhD chairs at institutions that he was familiar with. And so Shoeshine read the letter to me and it said do you know of anybody who wants to take on the opportunity of building the first new public university in twenty-five years in this country? And I said, Alright, I'll give it a shot. And so that's how I ended up interviewing here. And when I came to interview, I--so at the time, I was with Angel and we had already made plans to get married. And so we were looking at the job market together, and we said, We need to go someplace where people speak Spanish. And so ignorantly, now we know, we said, Oh, San Diego. Great. They speak Spanish there, and Mexicans, Cubans, same deal. Yeah, it's not at all. But we figured, all right, California would be, you know, pretty cool. So I interviewed at Cal Poly Pomona, and I interviewed here, and I interviewed at Florida Atlantic University in Boca. We didn't wanna' leave Miami, and we thought we never would leave Miami. And in fact, the, I was heartbroken to know that U of M wouldn't hire me 'cause they didn't, they really didn't like to hire their own grad students. 'Cause the plan was supposed to be, I was supposed to stay in Miami, and we were gonna buy the house next door to my parents. And that's it. We were gonna stay there. So I came out here to interview and remember somebody that, you know, picked me up, Len Jessop. He was on the faculty then went on to become UNLV's President. And he picked me up. There was no campus, it was Cal State Jerome's. He took me to the office park. None of that bothered me 'cause I was young. And he drove me down Barham, and they pointed at the dirt and they said, There's gonna be a campus there. Oh, great. And they showed me the drawing and all the things. And I remembered the people seemed to be a little younger as compared to Cal Poly Pomona, especially. A little younger. Very excited and super energized. And I thought, Wow, this is great. Too bad I'm never gonna' leave Miami. So the, I did get offered eventually the job at Cal Poly Pomona, but I thought, no, it's just the, the vibe was very traditional and it felt old to me. I was twenty-four. Everything feels old when you're twenty-four. And Florida Atlantic only had a visiting position, so Angel and I thought Well, we'll go to California for a couple years, and we'll come back 'cause by then something will have opened up. And so we did. And moving out here was--we got married August 2nd, moved out here August 12th, 1991. And it was one of the most traumatic things we have-I have--ever done, we have ever done. We got here, got to our apartment on Mission, still there. And had to buy everything 'cause we came with no furniture, nothing. So we went to Jerome's and we bought an apartment full of furniture, and went to the grocery store where the Stater Brothers is now. And got on a payphone, called home and said we wanted to come back. And we were going to 'cause we had bought round trip tickets because it was cheaper. And so we thought, All right, the round trip goes back in a week. We can, we can go. And we kind of thought we were 'cause it was just, it was heartbroken, it was the fir-- heartbreaking. It was the first time we had ever been away from our families. And Angel moved out here sight unseen. He had never even been to California. So thankfully, I think the next day I went onto into the office, I can't even say campus 'cause it was an office park. And saw the people again, got excited about the opportunity. And that's why we decided, All right, we'll give it, we'll give it the two years. 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:38.000 And you've talked a little bit about this, but what was the entity, the organization, CSU San Marcos, like when you arrived? 00:14:38.000 --> 00:17:29.000 Well, it was, there were no offices. So I was, you know, in a cubicle for the first, what, three years. Everybody knew, literally, everybody knew everybody 'cause it was tiny. When I got hired in COBA (College of Business Administration), there were eight faculty, and then four were hired when I got there at the same time as me. Three Asian guys and me. And it was--in some ways it's good that I was so young because I didn't know that I should be terrified because of everything that we had to do. They--the curriculum in COBA was basically just San Diego State's repackaged. And, but the Dean, Bernie at the time said, you know this is just a placeholder for us. We're gonna, and then the first thing we're gonna do is we're gonna create our own. Well, I didn't even know what curriculum was, so I had to go to the library to get a book to, because back then, PhD programs did not train perspective faculty in teaching pedagogy, curriculum design, or any of that stuff. It was straight up research. And by the way, my PhD advisor, Shoeshine, thought I was nuts to come here because he said, you are gonna' be overwhelmed with service. You're not gonna' be able to get your research agenda off the ground. And I said, Yeah, you know, two years, it'll be fine. So yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot that just fell into place, me coming here because, you know--spirit of full disclosure--as far as the profession. I loved to teach. I was very good at it, not just to toot my own horn, but I was very good at it. And students loved me. I loved the students. So I was a great teacher. The research I could do. It wasn't my passion, though. And so coming here was a blessing in that way because I was able to lean into my strength, which was teaching and this whole new thing of service that as a faculty member or as a PhD student, I had no clue what that was about. Shoeshine used to call it administrivia, if he ever had to serve on a committee. And when I would go to conferences, the Academy of Management, and I would go to the PhD or the new faculty seminars, and I would talk to people and they would look at me like, You're doing what? You're on what committee? What? And they thought I was insane. But looking back, it was the best training for an administrator that you could ever have as a faculty member. So I, you know, unbeknownst to me, I was kind of on this trajectory towards becoming an administrator without even knowing it. 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:43.000 Okay. So your focus for the first years of your career was in the classroom. And what did you teach? And then what was the focus of your research and service, which you've spoken to a little bit, but anything else you'd like to add? 00:17:43.000 --> 00:20:20.000 Yeah, so I taught management and organizational behavior. And I taught IO (industrial organizational) psych in the early days. And I taught H--I think I taught HR once, but mostly it was the basic organizational behavior class. And the classrooms were storefronts back then. So there was a glass in the back and there's little shutters, but inside it looked like a classroom. And almost all of my students were older than me. I think all of my students were older than me. So back then I used to always wear suits and professional stuff and wear glasses to look older. So yeah, on the research side I continued to work with some of my PhD student colleagues to get, because, you know, you have to get enough stuff out the door to get tenure. So, so I did that. The great secret of my life was that I came here at the time ABD ("All But Dissertation"). So I was, I wasn't done with my dissertation, which in retrospect was insane. Coming into a brand new job, brand new everything. And I was scared to death. I didn't tell anybody when I got here and then finally one day I just broke down in the dean's office in Bernie's office and said, I just, I wasn't able to finish the year, but I'm almost done. I just have to write this stuff up. And he said, Don't worry about it, you'll finish it. So by March of the spring semester, I was done and I walked. So part of my first semester was, you know, finish up the dissertation, get started on your res- on your teaching. And oh, by the way, you'll be on all these committees. I don't know. I don't know how I did it. So those were the yeah, the early years. And then the yeah, the service stuff was just all, everything you can imagine. So there's a faculty member in computer science at the time, Shell Baning. And he said, Oh, you should be on Academic Senate. I, what, what is that? And so I was, that was one of the first things I did. And I remember then, and it's still true now, how can they spend forty-five minutes talking about one sentence in a document? I don't understand. So that's why when folks, Academic Senate, now when I see things, it's like, I, what, so what's new? I've seen this for years. 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:32.000 Okay. So you started your administrative path relatively early on in your career. Can you tell me what that path looked like for you and the positions that you've held? 00:20:32.000 --> 00:31:53.000 So in 1999 we had a dean search. And for reasons completely unbeknownst to me 'cause I was an associate professor at the time, the then-vice president for Academic Affairs, he was not pro--the title didn't include Provost yet. That's a not recent anymore, but in '99 it was just the VPAA (Vice President for Academic Affairs). He asked me to serve as the Dean Search Committee Chair. And so, Alright, sure. And unfortunately the search was not successful. So the VPAA had to pick an interim dean and chose one of my colleagues, Kathleen Watson. And she and I were very close and close friends as well as colleagues. We did consulting together. We were friends outside of work. And so he thought--the VPAA thought I could be her associate dean. And so I was made interim Associate Dean in 1999. And I thought, you know, sure, for a year, I'll try it. I don't have any idea what it entails. Because up until then, the associate deans in the colleges had been these older full professors at the time. I thought they were old. I now look back and think they were like way younger than I am now. I am sure. And so I didn't know. I didn't know what I didn't know. And so I said, yes, I would be associate dean 'cause I figured I'm working with Kathleen, it'll be okay. And then there was another dean search and that one also failed, and the VPAA--no wait, no, that dean search was successful, sorry. And he, the dean who came in, came from Cal State Long Beach, Mohammed Mustafa. Called him Mo, rest his soul. He kept me on as associate dean, and he made me permanent. And the first, the first semester was fine ; after that thing started going sideways because his management style and what the faculty wanted at the time were completely different. And the faculty--he began to get really suspicious of them. They began to really hate him. And I was stuck right in the middle. And so that was, I'm sure one of the questions is gonna' be, what's the most chal-- what are the most challenging times that you faced here? That was really one of them, if not the most, because I basically lost all my friends because Kathleen and the other senior faculty thought that I had betrayed them because I stayed on as Associate Dean. They thought I should have resigned. But, you know, at the time, I liked the job and I didn't want to, I didn't wanna' quit. And they never got over the fact that I stayed on as Mo's Associate Dean. And so lost my friends. They wouldn't talk to me. People would yell at me in meetings 'cause they couldn't yell at him. So it was really unpleasant. And so after eighteen months, Mo resigned and that was the only time that I started looking for jobs elsewhere. And I actually got an interview as--for a dean of faculty position in, outside of Boston, Massachusetts at a Catholic school called Easton. And it was when Vince was three, and I remember that because he couldn't pronounce Massachusetts. And so I had to, when I left, Angel would tell him that I was going on an airplane to Massachusetts and he would say, Mama, go airpane Ma-chusetts. (laughter). So that was a great experience because I thought, Okay, I'm a relatively new associate dean. It was only a couple years out, and they still wanted to interview me. And the people were really nice, and I didn't get the job, but at least I felt validated, like, Okay, I could do this. And then thankfully there was a dean search, and the dean who came in was Dennis Guzman. And he was--he ended up being the stability that COBA needed. So prior to that, I said Mo stayed for eighteen months. The permanent dean before Mo stayed eighteen months. There had been a bunch of interims. So the, there was a revolving door in the dean's office basically every eighteen months for the first about ten years of Cal State San Marcos's existence. But when Dennis came in, he was a great people person. He really got to know the faculty. They began to trust him. He ended up serving as dean for ten years. He made it his mission the first couple of years to get folks to respect me again and to treat me well. And it worked. I never got my friends back, like Kathleen and I never fully recovered our friendship. We got to at least talk 'cause she wouldn't even talk to me. We got to at least be on speaking terms and be civil and thanks to Dennis. And he also was great because he--Vince was young. And he let me do all of the things that moms can do. I never had to miss any of his things. I could go on field trips, if I needed any time, Dennis would give it to me. And so he let me be a mom to a young child, which was the most important thing to me. So when I first became Associate Dean, Vince was three. And I figured, I'm gonna be--and I was really young at the time--so I was gonna be the youngest everything. I was gonna' be the youngest provost. I was gonna' be the youngest president. I was going all the way before I was forty. And then Vince started kindergarten, and I realized, holy moly, he needs me. And this time is not gonna' come back. And if I miss it, I am gonna' regret it. And we only have the one kid we couldn't have anymore. So like, this is my one shot. And so thankfully Dennis let me do that. And so that's why I stayed on as Associate Dean for thirteen years. And then he decided--so provost came, new provost came in. She was quite something, and they didn't get along. And so he decided to step down. And I thought, Oh God. Because I used to tell him, Dennis, don't leave 'cause I don't want your job. But by the time he stepped down, I had been Associate Dean for like eleven years. So they asked me to be the interim dean. And I thought, all right, I'll give it a shot. And so I was, and found that, you know, I'm a chameleon. I can adapt pretty darn well. 'Cause It's a completely different skillset, associate dean to dean, as you well know. Being the the associate dean, you're the support, you're the details, you're the sounding board, you're all the things. As the dean, you are it. If you don't think of it, it doesn't get done. You need to--and then in COBA, you had to fundraise. There was an advisory board, all of the things. So business, community stuff. So all kinds of stuff I was learning. But I loved, I liked it. I liked it a lot. And so when the fall semester went well, when the spring semester rolled around and the dean search started, I put my hat in the ring. I thought, You know, why the heck not? And the Provost at the time, she said that, you know, I was doing a great job. She loved working with me, I liked working with her. Everything was going great. Dean search happened. And I didn't get the job. And I still remember to this day, it was April 1st, 2012. She called me and told me I didn't get the job. And I cried harder than I had ever cried. 'Cause I gave my heart and soul to this, to the job. And I thought I should have gotten it. People were telling me I should have gotten it. The advisory board was. Everybody was thankfully rallying around me, but, you know, to no avail. 'Cause the person that they picked at the time, and I'm not, I'm not saying anything that anybody doesn't know, she left after two years and gave the provost at the time--so the provost shift, Graham came in, Graham Oberem--gave him two weeks notice. So, she basically came here to get her retirement. But the provost who hired her saw dollar signs because she had come from San Diego State and raised, supposedly raised, thirteen million dollars. And so they thought, oh, she'd come here and do the same. So that didn't work out. And she, you know, I did my best. I swear it wasn't sour grapes or anything like that. I did my best to transition her in and to work with her. But her work style and mine were very different. Like, I'd come in and before 7:00 a.m. there were sixteen emails for me to do stuff. She was having me do spreadsheets left, right, and sideways for absolutely no reason. And so after a year, I thought I can't do this anymore. So I was gonna' go back to faculty, and Graham called me 'cause David Barsky was stepping down as the--it was AVP (Associate Vice President) of faculty--of Academic Programs at the time. And Graham asked me, do you want to do it? And I said, no, I don't, because let's see, David works until midnight, and I don't know what the job entails and, you know, but let me sleep on it. So I did. And Angel and I talked and he said, You know, what have you got to lose? Do it for a year. I said, okay. Twelve--it would've been twelve years today that I stayed in this job. And, you know, turns out that Patricia Prado-Olmos told me this, and it's true. That the COBA dean thing was, you know, the best thing that never happened to me because this gig was really, you know, very well suited to what I like to do, what I like to think I'm good at, and allowed me to work with faculty across the University, which I didn't get to do in COBA. Gave me a really a bigger picture view. Had I decided to go on to be a provost someplace else, it really would've positioned me well for that. And so, you know, looking back, there really has--well, I haven't had a plan for my career. There has been a plan by someone, you know. So I'm a person of faith, so I believe God took care of me somehow. Put me where I was supposed to be when I was supposed to be at each stage of my career. 00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:59.000 So tell me what an AVP of Academic Programs does. 00:31:59.000 --> 00:34:55.000 So the evolution of--so started off with basically the catalog maintenance. And back then it was a paper catalog and then shifted to PDF. So the catalog and then the curriculum. So curriculum goes through a bazillion approval steps--new courses, new programs, all the way up to the Chancellor's Office. And so all of those steps really shepherding, shepherding faculty along in their creativity around new courses and new programs to get them through all of the myriad of steps. So the position originally was an AVP and it didn't do--David didn't do accreditation and what else didn't he do? And he did first year programs. So when I took it over, first year programs really wasn't in Academic Programs anymore. Neither was scheduling, which he had for a while. And then after about a year, we had--we were ramping up for our WASC (Western Association of Schools and Colleges) reaffirmation in 2014 at the time. And Sharon Hamill was our campus Accreditation Liaison Officer. And she was a faculty member. We had our visit from the Vice President from WASC, and he recommended that it be an administrator. And so Sharon and I talked, I had, you know, gotten to know the VP from WASC. I was really impressed. And I said, you know, sure, I'll do it. And so that's how the WASC piece came over. Then Academic Affairs reorganized, and we brought in a Vice Provost for the first time. And when that happened, that's when the AVP position became a dean position because they wanted all of the senior leaders in academic affairs to be at the dean level. And so I became Dean of Academic Programs and still doing the accreditation, assessment, curriculum, catalog. So those basic things. Then in 2018, President Haynes called me into our office, and there had been a task force put together to look at advising and infrastructure and organization around academic advising on the campus. And they said that it should be consolidated in one division 'cause It was bifurcated in Student Affairs and Academic Affairs at the time. And they wanted all in Academic Affairs. And Karen--President Haynes--asked me if I would do it. And I said, why me? Academic programs, advising, why? She said, you know, we really think that you can make it work. And so that's how advising, that's how it became Dean of Academic Advising and Academic Programs in 2019, I think we launched. 00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:57.000 Yeah, it's been a long road. 00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:59.000 Yeah, it has been. 00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:12.000 Okay. So you've been a faculty member and administrator on campus for 34 years. What has been the evolution at CSUSM? How has it changed? 00:35:12.000 --> 00:37:16.000 Well buildings are nice. (laughter) It still boggles my mind to this day. I will just like stand in Palm Court and look up the stairs 'cause for the longest time, those stairs were there and there was no building. And they were the stairs to nowhere. That's what we would call them 'cause Markstein Hall didn't open, hadn't opened yet. So every single building on campus, I have seen open. I've been in many of them before they were even built, like this building, I got to--I have a rivet from this building. So just basically growing up with the campus was just insane. And it's not, you know, it really exceeded expectations 'cause I certainly hoped that once we decided to stay here 'cause I mentioned we were gonna' be here for two years. After two years and, you know, this weather, we called home and we said, Yeah, we're not going back. And so my parents packed up and moved, and eventually, Angel's family packed up and moved. So once we decided to stay, and I got to, you know, we were at 400 students when I started. We're at what, close to 17,000 now. So just seeing that, and all of the talk in the early years was always about the City of San Marcos, the region needs us 'cause there's gonna be this explosion in the college age population. North County's population is exploding. We need to be here. And they, the City, you know, put its money where its mouth was. The Twin Oaks (Valley Road) has been as it is today, since before there was a campus. So they really were thinking ahead. And so, all of those promises and dreams so many of them came true. And I got to see that. I got to--(weeps) I knew this would happen. 00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:20.000 It's okay. We very much want you to be as vulnerable as you can. 00:37:20.000 --> 00:38:13.000 And anybody who knows me knows that I cry. So it's okay. But I got to be a part of that. I got to, to build, build this place. And I think, wow, you know, I built it, and then my son came here. So I built it for him, for all of the other students that have graduated. And for all the faculty who have come here. So, you know, if you look for God, did you, did you go someplace where they let you make an impact? Yeah, I did. I did. And I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that Shoeshine got that letter that day and that I gave it a chance. 00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:24.000 Did you always know that you wanted to be an academic or this was something that Shoeshine, like, helped to develop? 00:38:24.000 --> 00:40:33.000 Yeah I, when I was little, I used to play school, and I'd line up my stuffed animals, and I had blue books, and I thought they were the coolest thing in the world, and I would give them little tests. So I guess leaning towards teaching was always a thing for me. But being a professor, no. And in fact, Angel can tell you this, when we, since I met him the day after I started the PhD program, I hated my classes. 'Cause they were very quantitative. I was a psych major. This was not my wheelhouse. And it was a lot more difficult. Like, I had been a really good student my whole life. Even in my undergrad, I got two B's. So school came easy to me. That all ended in grad school. It was not easy anymore. And so I would cry on the phone with him every night that we were talking, Oh, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this program. And so after the first year, I got an internship in HR for a bank. It was called Sun Bank at the time, in Florida, in Miami. And it was on Brickell Avenue, which is a beautiful big office right on the bay. And so I just had an intern job. But I got offered, at the end of the summer, I got offered a permanent job for ten dollars an hour. And I thought, Wow, that's lot of money. This was in 1988. That's a lot of money. Maybe I should drop out of the PhD program since I hate it so much. And I almost did. Oh my God, thank you. I went to my first academic conference at around the same time. And at the conference when I met other PhD students, when I saw faculty presenting on their research, I said, oh, okay. This is what faculty do. It's not these quantitative classes that I hate. So I was able to see the bigger picture. And so at that point, I, and then I started teaching in the PhD program, too. And I thought, okay. I like this. I like this part. Now, being an administrator, never crossed my mind. But being faculty-- 00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:37.000 Until you started to be an administrator and then you were going all the way to the top. 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.000 Yep. Then I was gonna' be president. Yep. 00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:49.000 Okay, I get it. Okay. So can you speak to your highs and lows at CSUSM? You talked about one of the lows. 00:40:49.000 --> 00:43:48.000 Yeah. So highs. This building, Markstein Hall. I was involved from the very, very early stages. I saw, I think I was on the first building committee, the first building design--people might not know this--was a circular building, but then in the CSU that can't work because it's too much wasted space. And then on the inside, so the scrap that, came up with the design, so work from the--work with the architect from the very beginning, as I said, was in this building multiple times as it was going up. And so when it finally opened, this was like my child. So it's funny now that I'm back in here, it's like, oh, I'm, I'm home. I feel completely comfortable. I was like, I picked out this furniture. Fourth floor, all of it, you know, we, the I--the fourth floor, I picked. Dennis, let me pick it. Dennis, let me pick this chair. It is a Coach leather chair in green. It's mine. This, I tell Angel, this is going home with me when I retire. And he says, University property. No, it's my chair. So opening this building was just awesome. The, in this job, well, accreditation, you know. Getting ten years when I didn't know anything about was going into this and was able to put a great team together, work with great people. God bless Melissa Simnett, you know, we were able to pull off a ten-year reaffirmation, which was awesome. Just seeing the growth, that's just been so exciting. My son graduating from here, that was, you know, best day of my life, no doubt. I was able to--I used to, before we got the, it's not an AI reader, it's a--how would you call our, how we do names at graduation now? So it's the computer reads them basically, but it's a human voice. Anyway, before that, it used to be faculty, and I used to coordinate the reading of the names and I would read names. So I got to read his name, and I got to say "my son Vincent Lorente," and my voice cracked just like that. So that was like one of the best days ever. Actually, every graduation is just amazing. And so those are all high points. The last thing I'll say is, you know, working with Academic Advising and getting to know those folks. This team of in Academic Programs that I'm working with now, like the stuff that's been happening recently, that's, that's all been awesome. I've loved it. Low points. I mentioned the one that was the lowest. What was the other one? Yeah, there really haven't been many. There really haven't been many. Yeah, I'll leave it at that. 00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:59.000 Okay. Do you have work that you've accomplished in your career that you think has been the most impactful? Like if you had to name one or two things? 00:43:59.000 --> 00:45:36.000 Curriculog and Acalog. So our curriculum system--curriculum management and our catalog--that's fully online. 'Cause that's, I mean, that's a piece of infrastructure that's gonna' last us. And we, that was entirely. I don't do "me" very much, but that one was me doing the research. Other CSUs, only three were using it at the time. But we had to do something 'cause we had paper forms that we're chasing all around campus. And we tried working with IT to do something that was an early version of DocuSign, but the technology wasn't there yet. And so these companies just started up then that were saying, Hey, we can do it all for you. And so I started researching them and thankfully we chose these folks. And now most of the CSUs uses 'em. And so that, while I don't fool myself into thinking it's gonna last us forever, I'm sure there's gonna be a better mousetrap someday. It has taken us quite far and took us through the pandemic, which if we had not had that, then there is no way. Everything would've ground to a halt. So I think that's had a big impact. This building, this thing's my legacy right here. So those things, and I guess just all the, I haven't counted, maybe I should, all of the program proposals, new programs, all of the things that have gotten approved in the last twelve years while I've been in this job. Like, at least--not a hundred, but about fifty easy. And so so those things. 00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:42.000 Great. Can you tell me about the people who have most influenced you in your career? 00:45:42.000 --> 00:50:24.000 Hmm. So going--I mentioned Dennis Guzman, who had been the dean in COBA. So he was a great mentor and a great friend. And he rebuilt my self-esteem such that I could stay on as an administrator and not think that I was the piece of dirt that all of the faculty thought I was at the time. Beverly Anderson. So she was the first permanent dean hired in 1992. And she was, unfortunately, not what the senior faculty at the time wanted. I don't know if there were gender issues then. I was too young and blind to see any of that at the time. But they did not like her. They wanted to get rid of her and made her life miserable. And in fact, they co-opted us junior faculty. 'Cause I was twenty-six, what did I know from anything at the time? These, you know, senior faculty, who had been around forever, different universities were telling me, oh no, this isn't what we need in a dean. So they co-opted all of us and did a vote of no confidence against her. And so she stepped down after eighteen months. And then as I got a little bit older, I had a little bit more experience. After about three years, I realized, Man, that was a mistake. Beverly was good people and she was a good dean. And so I went to her and I said, Beverly, I am so sorry if you could ever forgive me. And so she became a mentor to me. She became a very close friend, and we stay in touch to this day. And she is like the exemplar of what a woman in the academy should be like. She came up in a time when women weren't respected, but yet she kept her head high. And I still remember the things that she told me. Like she said, nobody insults you without your permission. She taught me that careers are cyclical and that they go up, they go down, they go up, they go down. So never when they're down, when you're down, never worry about it 'cause it's gonna' go back up. So she had a huge impact on me. I'd say Karen Haynes, so she was a great mentor to me. She and Pat Worden, who was a VP of Student Affairs for a while, had been all of the things, like she had been Associate Dean in, it wasn't CHABSS (College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral and Social Sciences) then, it was COAS, College of Arts and Sciences. Lots of positions on campus. And so she was a mentor to me and she, Karen and wait, yeah, she, Karen and I taught a class on women in leadership. And so that was super exciting. And that's how I got to know President Haynes as a person. And she wasn't just like in name only, she, we team taught that class and she was there. Like, she would come, she would lecture, she would discussion, all of the things. So she was a great influence on me. Kamel Haddad. He was just amazing. He made me better, you know, he just had a way of, you know, he was tough. He was hard to understand sometimes, not verbally, but just, What is it that you want from me? and I can't do it! And he yes, you can. And he taught me. And he was so patient. And so he made me better. Graham. Graham, he came in from the the provost who didn't give me the job. And he treated me fairly. He respected me. He--I guess that was a low time when I didn't get the job, the dean job. But Graham came in and saved the day for me. And so he was, he was definitely a mentor. My super close friend here, Dawn Formo. She and I have been together now for what, thirty years we've been friends. And so I always looked to her for like, what would Dawn do if? 'Cause she always does the right thing. Yeah, I'd say those, those folks. I'm sure there's more. I'm leaving out. Oh, David Barsky, who held the position before me. So he taught me. He spent a whole year training me, and I was thinking, I can't do this, David. I can't do it your way. But he still taught me and he taught me well, and he was always there to answer questions. 00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:32.000 So what do you plan to do during retirement? Personally and professionally. Today is your first day of retirement, I will say-- 00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:33.000 It is. 00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:34.000 --and you're in your office-- 00:50:34.000 --> 00:52:27.000 --and here I am. (laughter) Aye-yai-yai. So I am going to FERP, faculty early retirement. And so as part of that, I need to continue my--funny how I phrase that--I need to continue my work on WASC because the retirement was unexpected. My plan had been 2026 after my sixtieth birthday in September, after we had done our WASC reaffirmation visit, which is in March of 2026. But this VSIP (Voluntary Separation Incentive Program) thing came up, and it was too good to turn down. So I retired now. But leaving this place in a lurch with accreditation wasn't an option for me. And thankfully, the Provost and Vice Provost agreed. And so that's my fac--my FERP assignment is instead of going back to the classroom, I'm going to continue on as the, the WASC ALO and lead us through the accreditation visit. Also, since I'm not being replaced yet, the whole what happens to academic programs and academic advising question is still a very real one. And so I will be a faculty fellow for accreditation and curriculum, which means, kind of have to figure out how much I can do within the constraints of my FERP assignment to kind of keep the boat afloat for a year. So in a lot of ways, nothing has changed but then everything has changed. So I'm just, I'm still trying to figure out in my head what that means. I think at minimum it means that I set my schedule. And that I am the boss of no one for the first time since 1999. And that technically no one is the boss of me, other than my dogs. (Laughter) 00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:31.000 Will you still continue to do professional work with WASC? 00:52:31.000 --> 00:53:56.000 Yes. So I will still serve on teams. So I've been doing that for about ten years now. I got involved with WASC after our visit because I was very impressed with them as an organization, because you think accreditation and it, you think it's about checking a bunch of boxes and oh, you don't do this right. WASC is not that. WASC is all about, you know, maybe it's the California philosophy, I don't know, but it's all about let's try to make you better. Let's get to know you, let's help you be a better version of you. And so that felt really good. And it also felt good to learn about other institutions because since this is the only place I've ever worked in higher ed, you know, that's my, that's a strength and it's a weakness because it's all I knew. And so getting involved in WASC exposed me to all types of institutions, you know, private, not-for-profit, for-profit, all of the things. Big schools, little schools, international schools. They sent me to the Emirates to review a school, I'm going to Ecuador next year. So really, WASC like swung open the door on professional development for me as someone in higher ed. And so I will absolutely love to keep doing that. And in fact, I just did a sub-change review yesterday for a school in Africa, of all places. Didn't go there, obviously. It was Zoom. But yeah, Ecuador in April. 00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:10.000 Very cool. Okay. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about in this interview? Anything that we missed? 00:54:10.000 --> 00:55:17.000 So in my retirement speech, I made a reference to Hamilton," and I read part of George Washington's farewell speech. I won't do that again. But the one thing I didn't say was another quote from Hamilton and it says "legacy is planting seeds in a garden you never get to see." I got to see the garden. So that's pretty cool. And as I said earlier, I'm really grateful for that. Hopefully there's still some flowers that will bloom once I'm gone. But that won't be for another, well, I can FERP for five years. And that's my plan, you know, I think, God, old people retire and I'm not old, you know, fifty-eight, I'll be fifty-nine, but I've got five years now, and so I can see going all the way through five years for sure. Unless and until Vince has a baby. If that happens, then we are Napa bound and I will be raising grandchildren. (laughter) 00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:43.000 Very good. Okay. Well thank you. I will say the theme that came across to me the most in this interview is your like, can do, I can do it for a year, I can do it for two years. I could, I can do it for six months. And you've obviously been open to these possibilities, and that is really what has made your career and CSUSM so much better. So thank you so much for interviewing today. Thank you. Thank you for letting me talk about myself for two hours. (laughter) 00:55:43.000 --> 01:55:49.000 Thank you. Thank you for letting me talk about myself for two hours. (laughter) NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.xml EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Eisenbach, Regina. Interview July 1, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Regina Eisenbach is retiring from CSUSM as the Dean of Academic Advising and Academic Programs in 2025. After thirty-four years at the University, she shares a rich history of CSUSM’s evolution over time. In this interview, she discusses what brought her to CSUSM, her path to administration, people who have influenced her professionally, and the physical and structural changes to CSUSM through its development. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-085 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-07-01 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Regina Eisenbach Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos -- History California State University San Marcos -- Administration Education, Higher Women in leadership Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Juan (P.R.) Miami (Fla.) San Marcos (Calif.) CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0068bb6bea2ea5f55c2f9c5c968a5d27.pdf a666cc68c14f402d6f965e1b1ace736a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Schaffman, Karen. Interview transcript, June 5, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Karen Schaffman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-06-05 Subject The topic of the resource Higher education Dance Study and teaching Improvisation in dance Movement education California State University San Marcos -- Faculty Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Connecticut Amherst (Mass.) Riverside (Calif.) San Francisco (Calif.) Holland Germany San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Karen Schaffman Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_transcript Art and artists CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2f5f1f5e8e2ab849149ddd2d77b15aa4.jpg ba32d71554e6120c0b7841a00e58146b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alphonso Cevera titled "Poc-Chuc Iteraciión 4" Description An account of the resource Guest artist choreographer Alphonso Cevera. Collaboration and Performance with Dance Studies Students: Vanesa Bedolla, Nicole Carr, Kati Echeverria, Xochitl Garnica, Alex Maravillas, Emilia Medina, Raelen Pellos, Karen Rocha, Maria Sandoval, and Nina Watts. This performance is part of the The Experimental Dance Project (EDP), which celebrates dance through interaction with professional artists and project-based learning. The EDP brings outstanding dance artists to perform, lecture, dialogue, teach and create with CSUSM students. Importantly, the EDP offers cutting-edge training and performance opportunities by hosting dance artists across the spectrum, including people of color, Latinx, Black, and LGBTQ identities. The EDP embraces our campus’ mission of inclusivity.  The EDP focuses on experimental and improvisational approaches to dance, with a particular emphasis on social justice and community engagement. The EDP aims to break down societal norms around dance and create a space where students can explore their own unique movement styles. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tim Richards https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/803d77588fbc77f28af85130979c60c1.jpg 9ced4a5c7480b90010047507e5db9e0e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jaamil Olawale Kosoko titled "The Chameleon Complex" Description An account of the resource Guest artist choreographer Alphonso Cevera. With Live composition/sound designer Malesha Tayloy, Professor/Dr. Karen Schaffman and Dance Studies students: Kevine Benitez, Xochitl Garnica, Alex Maravilles, Emilia Medina, Raelene Palos and Cornelius Stringer. This performance is part of the The Experimental Dance Project (EDP), which celebrates dance through interaction with professional artists and project-based learning. The EDP brings outstanding dance artists to perform, lecture, dialogue, teach and create with CSUSM students. Importantly, the EDP offers cutting-edge training and performance opportunities by hosting dance artists across the spectrum, including people of color, Latinx, Black, and LGBTQ identities. The EDP embraces our campus’ mission of inclusivity.  The EDP focuses on experimental and improvisational approaches to dance, with a particular emphasis on social justice and community engagement. The EDP aims to break down societal norms around dance and create a space where students can explore their own unique movement styles. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tim Richards https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0e7e677cdb8596e444b17c80b2adfb8c.jpg 45067d84631621666986f8424dcf45c0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Karen Schaffman and Ishmael Houston Jones Description An account of the resource Karen Schaffman and Ishmael Houston Jones at Think Gravity Dance Tank.Think Gravity Dance Tank: Celebrating & Reckoning with Contact Improvisation and Performance was an intergenerational research gathering in Boulder Colorado from March 21-26, 2022. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tim Richards https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5f893935bd6c92420817c088e0d444cc.jpg 5e968aadd43e72d0487cb77679d8b7c9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Karen Schaffman and Darrell Jones Description An account of the resource Karen Schaffman and Darrell Jones at Think Gravity Dance Tank.Think Gravity Dance Tank: Celebrating & Reckoning with Contact Improvisation and Performance was an intergenerational research gathering in Boulder Colorado from March 21-26, 2022. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tim Richards Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Schaffman, Karen. Photographs, June 5, 2025. Description An account of the resource Four photos related to the oral history of Karen Schaffman. Photograph #1 depicts dancers in a performance of the Experimental Dance Project titled "Poc-Chuc Iteraciión 4." Photograph #2 depicts dancers in a performance of the Experimental Dance Project titled "The Chameleon Complex." Photograph #3 depicts Karen Schaffman with with Ishmael Houston Jones in the Think Gravity Dance Project. Photograph #4 depicts Karen Schaffman with Darrell Jones in the Think Gravity Dance Project. Click on the thumbnails to view the full images in more detail. https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/abdeb6b5993217c41d7d8f3dc1554cff.mp4 3c6df60dbdd1c712db4b06dd7a37c483 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral history of Tiffaney Boyd, April 15, 2021 Description An account of the resource Tiffaney Boyd is a CSUSM alumna and former president of Associated Students, Incorporated (ASI). She was a driving force in the creation of the Black Student Center (BSC), Cougar Pantry, and Sigma Gamma Rho. In this interview, Boyd Tiffaney details the process in which she and her fellow ASI cohorts proposed the idea of the BSC. She also discusses the politics that were involved in the process and the major contributors helping to bring the BSC to life. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tiffaney Boyd Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-15 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos -- Students Activism, Student Black experience in America Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calf.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Tiffaney Boyd License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource moving image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Boyd Tiffaney_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-15 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral history of Tiffaney Boyd, April 15, 2021 Description An account of the resource Oral history interview of Tiffaney Boyd on 2021-04-15 for the Black Student Center Oral History Project at California State University San Marcos. Tiffaney goes into detail about the process in which she and her fellow Associated Students, Incorporated cohorts proposed the idea of the Black Student Center. She also discusses the politics that were involved in the process and who were major contributors to helping bring the BSC to life. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tiffaney Boyd Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-15 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos, Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos, Black Student Center California State University San Marcos--Students Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Tiffaney Boyd License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BoydTiffaney_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-15 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Karen Schaffman OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Schaffman, Karen. Interview June 6, 2025. SC027-084 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Karen Schaffman Jennifer Fabbi moving image SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5c41e45a9e19b8754a22c3428a572fc2.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 56 Experience with dance as a child and adolescent Schaffman reflects on being a lifelong dancer starting with her initial experience with dance as a child and her mother’s role in exposing her to dance. lifelong dancer ; mother ; Connecticut Ballet ; ballet ; jazz ; Hartford Conservatory 0 382 Formal education Schaffman details her formal undergraduate and graduate education in dance including a degree at the European Dance Development Center in Holland and a PhD in Dance History and Theory at University of California, Riverside. University of Massachusetts ; women's studies ; feminism ; gap year ; San Francisco ; improvisation ; Holland ; Germany ; California ; University of California, Riverside ; Feldenkrais Method ; Dr. Moshe Feldenkrais 0 874 Foundational theory and practice for Schaffman’s work Schaffman describes theories and practices that underpin her work including a somatic approach to dance, perceptual improvisation, dance dialects, and contact improvisation. somatics ; perceptual improvisation ; dance dialects ; contact improvisation ; performance and cultural theory 0 1802 Service to the community and profession Schaffman discusses her teaching, scholarship, and service and how she was able to differentiate her service from teaching and scholarship during the retention, tenure, and promotion process. teaching ; scholarship ; creative activity ; service ; David Avalos ; Susan Foster ; Lower Left ; Bonnie Biggs ; Mtfti Imara ; California Center for the Arts ; Andrea Liss ; Kristine Diekman ; Meryl Goldberg ; Center ARTES ; Marilyn Huerta ; Arts and Lectures ; curriculum 0 2233 International work Schaffman speaks to her work in and travels to different countries and the influence this has had on her life and career. global citizen ; intercultural exchange ; Europe ; Mexico ; Pachuca ; Day of the Dead ; Holland 0 2238 Plans in retirement Schaffman shares her plans for retirement including slowing down, participating in a training institute in Vienna, and coming back to teaching at CSUSM as part of the Faculty Early Retirement Program. Donna Ray ; Feldenkrais ; training institute ; Vienna ; Pilates 0 2456 Schaffman’s journey to CSUSM and evolution of the campus and curriculum Schaffman reflects on the evolution of CSUSM, especially regarding the growth of the dance curriculum and program, faculty, and guest artists. curriculum ; University Curriculum Committee ; dance minor ; Choreographies of Resistance ; Michael McDuffie ; Ranjeeta Basu ; Cheri Hill ; breadth ; active learning ; social justice ; diversity ; Arts and Lectures ; Dancing through Prison Walls ; Visual and Performing Arts ; space ; theater ; Anya Cloud 0 4019 Working during the Covid pandemic Schaffman talks about her work during the Covid pandemic and the rise of Black Lives Matter and murder of George Floyd. (keywords: pandemic, Black Lives Matter, George Floyd, online performances, Historically Black Colleges and Universities, Mtfti Imara, T. Lang, Melicia Taylor, Black artists, Zoom, Skyla Miles, Minnie Atkins, sabbatical, Think Gravity Dance Tank, symposium, Anya Cloud, Ishmael Houston-Jones, contact improvisation, Contact Dance International Film Festival, Makisig Akin) pandemic ; Black Lives Matter ; George Floyd ; online performances ; Historically Black Colleges and Universities ; Mtfti Imara ; T. Lang ; Melicia Taylor ; Black artists ; Zoom ; Skyla Miles ; Minnie Atkins ; sabbatical ; Think Gravity Dance Tank ; symposium ; Anya Cloud ; Ishmael Houston-Jones ; contact improvisation ; Contact Dance International Film Festival ; Makisig Akin 0 4486 Schaffman’s most impactful work Schaffman reflects on what she considers to be her most impactful work. She believes the creation of the Dance program at CSUSM is the most important accomplishment of her career. Debra Hay ; Lower Left ; dance program ; Summer Arts ; Think Gravity 0 5169 Additional projects and collaborations Schaffman adds a few more collaborative projects that she wants to give her colleagues and the University credit for. United and Severed ; Kristine Diekman ; traumatic injury ; PTSD ; palliative care ; Mindfulness Center ; Elizabeth Hospice Center 0 Oral history Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:29.614 Hello, this is Jen Fabbi, and today I am interviewing Dr. Karen Schaffman for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History program. Today is June 5th, and it is 2:10 p.m. This interview is taking place at Karen's office on the CSU San Marcos campus, where we are guests on traditional unceded Luiseño/Payómkawichum land. Karen, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:29.614 --> 00:00:31.545 Thank you. 00:00:31.545 --> 00:00:41.375 So to start off, can you tell me about your experience with dance as a child and adolescent and where you got your passion for dance? 00:00:41.375 --> 00:00:47.495 Great, thank you. And first, I'd like to begin by also thanking you so much for the opportunity to share my story, and it's really truly an honor in this moment of my life to have this interview. 00:00:47.495 --> 00:00:49.638 Absolutely. 00:00:49.638 --> 00:00:54.228 Thank you so much. 00:00:54.228 --> 00:00:56.064 You're welcome. 00:00:56.064 --> 00:01:30.356 My childhood story began with dance. So I've been dancing--I'm a lifelong dancer. And I began dancing as a kid. And very young. My mom, there was, we lived on the end of a street, and there was a summer creative dance program. I must have been two or three. I don't have the exact date from my mom. And that's where I fell in love with dance. I have some little picture somewhere stored away with me like in some kind of end of something performance. But it was on the playground, and it was outdoors,and that's where my dance career began. Dance for me--should I just ramble? Is that good? 00:01:30.356 --> 00:01:34.752 Yeah. 00:01:34.752 --> 00:05:45.834 Dance for me was always a sense of a place for me to belong and I'll say survive. I was very supported to go to dance through my whole childhood, but we were a middle class family, and so I relied on scholarships, I usually got them. I was seriously into dance. So I danced until I was probably in seventh grade, No, maybe sixth grade, like twice a week. And then I got into a dance company, and I had a child's part in the Connecticut Ballet, regional Ballet Company. So very early on was I in a very kind of intergenerational environment, and you'll hear through this interview that that's really important to my work and maturing as a still as a performing artist. So it was really, uh, that was like a turning point for me to be in that company. But it was also a time in my life where I had been studying ballet where--my body started to change and I knew that, and then peer pressure and things like high school and things like that. So I changed to modern dance and jazz. So at the time, jazz dance was really predominant. So that's my, just my, like, early days. But I think I'm really not getting to the heart of it with my mom, because my mom really shuttled me back and forth. She was a nurse and, uh, full time, so I had a lot of chores at home to do and things like that. But I always knew that after the chores, my mother was coming home from work and basically going back to the same neighborhood. And so, yeah, it was a really important time for me. My brothers were very into sports and at the time we didn't have Title IX, and I was not encouraged to do sports. I think I probably would've been a good athlete, actually, but I wasn't really invited or included. So dance was really a natural place for me to be physical. But I loved going to dance class. I loved--in the ballet--I was in a ballet conservatory. It was called the Hartford Conservatory. Again, I was one of the young ones there. And there was a live pianist. His name was Julius. And I just remember just loving going there. And I had two older brothers, and it was really, it wasn't a great home environment. My brothers were pretty rough on me to put it lightly. So going to dance was always a place for me to just go and be. And I had really, really good training. I have to be--I'm so grateful that I landed in those places because my teachers were very supportive, but they were also slow with me. They were like--I was called Little K--Little K, we're not putting you on point shoes yet because your ankles aren't strong enough. So I actually had really, really, really good training. So I'm very--I'm very, very grateful for that. My mom, later in life, showed me a letter that they were encouraging me to go to a performing arts high school, and my mother didn't want me to go. And it was after I got my PhD and a career in dance that she said, You know, I need to--it was like she needed to make amends. So she showed me the letter from the Hartford Conservatory encouraging my mother to put me in a professional program, but she didn't. So, but that's interesting. So I don't know where my career would've went at that time. But I stayed in. So, my time with dance was--but I was very, very shy, I have to say. So I grew into not being shy as I got older, but as a kid I was a very shy, and so people asked me to dance in front of them. I'd always be like, no, I--it's like I didn't, I wasn't one of those kids who would be like, get up on the table or get up in front of grandma and grandpa and show them what you do. So I was very, very shy as a kid. So dance was a place where I-- and performance was a place for me to go. Yeah. I could go on and on about that, but. 00:05:45.834 --> 00:06:22.134 Well, maybe it'll come up in some questions. Okay. So you have substantial formal education. You earned a BA in Dance and Literature at UMass Amherst, and an equivalent degree in experimental dance at the European Dance Development Center in the Netherlands, and also your PhD in Critical Dance Studies at UC Riverside. And please fill in anything that I missed. How did your formal education impact who you are as a professional? 00:06:22.134 --> 00:14:14.595 So I only applied to three schools for undergraduate, and it was not a given, but pretty much where I grew up in a very middle class family that I would go to college. I didn't get into Cornell. That was my first choice. I didn't know how I was gonna afford that anyway. And then University of Connecticut was my backup, but they didn't have a dance program, so I didn't really want to go there, but my parents encouraged me. And at the time, there was this five-hour radius of driving, like, it was very strict where we were gonna apply back then. And I was on my own, actually, my grandmother was very ill, and my grandparents had moved from Brooklyn to be next to my mom. So I got into a dance major program at University of Massachusetts, and it's a very good program. They had something called the Five College Dance Program, which is part of a consortium with Smith College, Hampshire College, Mount Holyoke, and Amherst. So I got to pay, it was still outta state, Massachusetts, but got to take advantage of the five college dance program. But even finishing my first year, I was like, something's wrong here. I didn't really like the dance program. It was very competitive. And even though I didn't have any issues with what they thought would maybe be too much weight in the wrong places or anything, they were very critical of other dancers. And I knew right at that age that I wasn't really jiving with that program. Though I was even teaching my first year 'cause I was very advanced. So they gave me the work study teaching, like for the university. So I kind of gave up that opportunity, and I dropped out of the dance program, and I did what was called a bachelor's degree with an independent concentration. So I did dance and literature. So I always continued dancing, but I took all of my dance classes in the five college area. So I kind of got this semi Ivy League or alternative school 'cause Hampshire is a very alternative education. And then I took other classes at UMass, but UMass just opened my eyes up to many things. I did musical theater there and, but my dance and literature was really, really important because I did a lot of, what we called then, well, was--it was UMass had one of the first women's studies programs. So I did a lot of women's literature and I did, I learned about feminism, I was like, this was like my awakening. Yeah. I took a lot of what we call then third-world women's writing and literature courses. So I'm not from the third world, but we don't even use that phrasing anymore. But UMass was in the forefront of politics in the body at the time. So, it's interesting how that became, came back and around. So I had a great education there. I did take what we call now a gap year at the time 'cause I needed to get out into the world. And then I went, I lived in San Francisco for a while and then I knew I wanted to live overseas or go overseas, but I didn't wanna be a tourist. So I got in--there was no internet or anything then. So I was studying in San Francisco with Joe Good in a summer workshop. And this woman who's now well known in New York, Sarah (now I show my absent mind). Sarah Mickelson said, you should go here. She was British. and so there was a school in Holland, and they take two guests a year, and they accepted me with like my CV and a cover letter and a letter of recommendation. And I had no money. My parents were not supporting me at all in this phase of my life. I was waitressing in San Francisco and doing dictation. I worked on the first little Mac box. And I got a loan--I think I'll share this--from the Hebrew Free Loan Association. They gave me $2,000 up front, but I had to pay, start paying back $50 a month. And off I went to Europe, and I paid my tuition. And so I had like, I don't know, I had only like $500 left in my pocket, and I went to the school in Holland. And that basically just changed my life. So it was very alternative. And it was very much based in improvisation, but many of the teachers were coming from either England or the United States, from New York. So it was kind of the New York, the downtown scene, all of the people who were working with somatics in the body. So really doing deep research in terms of inner sensation and anatomical release it was called. So it was a very particular kind of dancing. And I was just like, I would just, I was just mind blown. I would stand there in the studio and somebody would do a performance where they would just take ten minutes to raise their arms. And it was the most beautiful thing I ever saw in my life. I was like, okay, what is this? And then the school split. They opened a new school in the town called Arnhem, and I went to Arnhem, and I spent two years there. And I had an amazing experience there with many amazing artists that I'm still, some of them I'm still in touch with. And I've curated, actually, here at the school and in summer arts. And so I went to there, changed my life. And then I got a job teaching in Germany before Germany had master's degrees in dance. And I worked in a conservatory environment there in a clown and dance school, So I taught at a clown and dance school for three years. And that was a great experience. But at the time I was involved with someone. I had to make a decision. So I decided to move to California. And, I was, What am I gonna' do here? And that's a longer story, but there was a brand-new program that I was thinking about getting a master's, but because I became so open to this other way of dancing, there was really no master's programs at the time that I was interested in, except maybe in New York. And I was like, Well, I live in California now. But there was a brand-new program at UC Riverside. It was the third year, and it was one of the very, among the very first top three universities that gave a PhD in dance. And so when I saw the poster in the back of one of these magazines called Contact Quarterly is how I found out about it, I was like, Oh, wow. So I went and I sat in on a few seminars and I was like, I wanna go there. So I applied. And so then I went to UC, Riverside. And it's really a groundbreaking program in terms of dance studies, the field of dance studies, which is different than just getting a degree in dance. Yeah. Dance studies is really about the political, social, and cultural impact and of the body and dance in the world. So that's what I did. And then I have one more education that I did that's very extensive called the Feldenkrais Method. So thank you to this university who partially funded that education. Yes. It's a four-year program, and it's based on the somatic educational method. And it's based on research of someone named Dr. Moshe Feldenkrais, and he was part of the human development generation. Yeah. He was also born the same year as my grandfather in the Ukraine, which was interesting. But he had a knee injury. He was one of the first white people, men, white men, to learn judo. And he learned judo, and he brought a lot of Eastern philosophy into this body modality. So it's not a dance training, it's really about finding ease in your own movement. So I still do that now. I bring that into all I do. And so I have, those are my key big degrees. 00:14:14.595 --> 00:14:34.754 So following up on that your focus for your career for the last several decades has been on somatics, perceptual improvisation, contact improvisation, and performance and cultural theory. Can you tell me a little bit more about these areas of focus? 00:14:34.754 --> 00:18:27.000 Yes. So you had somatic, perceptual improvisation, cultural theory, and contact improvisation? Yeah. So a somatic approach to dance, or the body, has to do with more about feeling than how it looks. It's really about inner sensation and really getting in touch with oneself on a very cellular level, if I can speak that way. It's more about embodied and lived experience and of course, that has cultural and impact culturally and through people's cultural history and ancestry. But it--and it really includes this very sensorial based way of dancing and through the world. So it's not about how it looks like, for example, like ballet where you have to look a certain way or something, but really about an inner sensorial world that brings forward the dance or the healing or whatever. So it's, it's an ancient way of being with oneself before we had technologies and things like that. So that's the somatic piece. Is that clear kind of? It is? And then perceptual improvisation really has to do with, again, responding to the conditions. So it's a little bit more related to the visual art world. And one of my areas that I researched, well, probably since I'm a kid, but is visual art. And I also studied--I took Harvard summer school one summer way, way back when, and I did video when it was a three-quarter inch and you sit down (unintelligible). So I did some--I've studied some videos. So I'm, it's really about--how do I explain perception improvisation on an interview like this? Let's see. Something about how do we, how do we perceive the world? So it's, it really does relate a lot to visual arts in terms of perspective and visual field and responding, but could be your auditory field as well. So it's related to somatics in that way. It also is really, really related to Eastern thought, which is about inner perception and meditation and things like that. So I've cultivated a more contemplative way of approaching dance as well. Yeah. It comes from, I wouldn't say I am a Buddhist or anything like that, but I've studied Eastern philosophy. I've done a little bit of martial arts, just a little bit. So I've kind of come at it with that. And then cultural theory is dance and cultural studies. Dance studies is really a blend of dance and the field of cultural studies. So we're really looking about diversity in dance, and we're considering not just a European perspective of dance, which becomes very stereotypical. And so it's changed so much then. But it's really the dance studies field really emerged out of celebrating and analyzing, honoring the histories and practices of diverse cultures across the world. I mean, there's so many dance dialects that around the world. So dance studies really opened my eyes up to how big the world of dance is and how much of an impact it has politically and socially on our identity and things like that. So everything we learn about dance can be applied to (unintelligible). Dance studies can be applied to any field, really, in my opinion, because it has so much to do with the politics of the body. Yeah. 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:28.000 That's really interesting. 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:35.444 Yeah. Yeah. And I bring that here to Cal State. 00:18:35.444 --> 00:18:43.535 So how have your areas of focus benefited your students? Many students over the years? 00:18:43.535 --> 00:23:12.493 Well, and I did talk about contact, so I'll bring that back 'cause that's what my area of research was about. I think I should say something about contact now. Is that okay? So my PhD was based on contact improvisation, which is, brings together all of those other practices--somatics, perceptual improvisation, dance technique, and then cultural studies. So I was looking at something that emerged from the fifties and sixties, which was a huge art movement in New York and really influenced a lot of people. And it was based on gravity and momentum and touch. So contact improvisation. My dissertation was really also a lot about touch and how contact improvisation, which is a touch-based dance form. It's like what happens when two bodies move together? And with gravity and momentum? Now we do this, people do this, not me, in tango, in salsa, and all sorts of dance traditions around the world. But contact has a particular aesthetic. And so it might look like something, but it's so much based in sensorial awareness. So this was--has been--a big part of my life is contact improvisation. And so--but contact improvisation sometimes universalizes this idea of what the body is. So my dissertation also took that apart and down a bit that said, No, this is very particular as a particular way of moving. It's not universal. Not everybody does it, you know, things like that. So anyway, it's a longer discussion, but I bring all of that into San Marcos when I--CSUSM--when I came here there was no program. And so it was clear to me that I was starting in a very challenging place but also really exciting place. One of the reasons I took the job here--I got an offer at a school that was already established as well. Because dance, dance for here, the byline here is that dance is for everybody and every body. And that this would be an inclusive environment and that this would be an environment that welcomes all students. So it would not be conservatory driven or even wanting to go in that direction. Even though we would be working on our technique, on our awareness--we would use words like awareness rather than virtuosity. You know, virtuosity is great, but would be more about awareness. So it's a very inclusive environment. And I think I was highly successful at that. And that is actually happening. So I think that's the biggest thing. But the students always are like, it's really different here. When people come to visit or high schools come always like, oh, it's really different here because it's really about community and there's a lot of support. We don't just dance. We talk about where we're at. We take a weather report. What's going on? One word, you know, everybody share a word. How do you feel today? We talk about access needs. We don't make assumptions in the class that everybody's gonna do everything. So there's a lot of that. So it's really with what my friend, Anya Cloud, collaborator, brought the phras--she was a lecturer here for nine years--"Dancing with the body you have." So yeah, no assumptions. No assumptions. Yeah. And also adaptability. access needs, cultural backgrounds, what's going on in the world. We don't ignore, we don't go, you may get a great escape in a dance class, but dance studies is not about this dream. that dance helps me escape the world. It's basically the opposite. It's really about grounding in the reality and what am I dealing with and what are the conditions right here and now? So I've cultivated those kinds of values here. And then the other big thing is because I went to Riverside, early on I brought in that students need to relate whatever we're learning in the class. almost every, and almost--not all classes, but many classes are like--how do you relate this to your major or something you care about in the world? Because dance is always in dialogue. We're always in relationship to the world. 00:23:12.493 --> 00:23:14.733 That's really, it sounds very unique. 00:23:14.733 --> 00:23:28.015 Yes, it is. (laughter) It's a unique program that that emerged. And, um, yeah, see where it goes, too, so I'm hopeful. 00:23:28.015 --> 00:23:35.375 So what has scholarship and creative activity looked like in your career as a professor of dance? 00:23:35.375 --> 00:24:20.000 Um, in my career? Or just, what was, can you repeat the question? I'm sorry. I was looking at my note up before that. I just said at the end, I wrote myself a little note about my area of focus. "It's fun and entertaining, but it's also much more than that." I talk to students. First of all, it's more than just the steps. We're not gonna just learn phrases in here and look in the mirror. I wanna add that students freak out 'cause in many classes we're like, let's close the curtains. Like, we don't always have to--and that's the somatic aspect, okay, is can you feel this movement? Why are you staring at yourself in the mirror? The mirrors can be very helpful, but, so I just wanted to sort of add that. 00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:33.743 So the, the question, the question was, as a professor of dance, what does scholarship and creative activity look like to you? 00:24:33.743 --> 00:24:36.664 Oh. 00:24:36.664 --> 00:24:47.233 And, and one, so in your CV, you also give example, a lot of examples of curated performance processes.And so are those things related? 00:24:47.233 --> 00:29:24.000 They are, for me, but in terms of teaching, I think it relates again to students who find--for our students here--is to find the connection of what dance does for the world and how it is universal. And if it's not, it's because it's being policed, right? By a government that won't allow dance. And like, where are we going now? So the scholarship in dance is about the awareness of what the body can do, like in music or visual art. You know, like we have art history, but we only have dance historians that take it really seriously. And there's tons of books now about dance. But in terms of curation, that's like a separate thing. Yeah. So my own scholarship has been that I've done a lot around--writing about contact improvisation and presenting on that. But I often combine my creative projects with political and historical research. So, for example, a project that was before--that I didn't curate, that I was invited on was like a European project based on a fictional choreographer named Veronika Blumstein. So I ended up spending like two years on that. And then she comes back every now and then, came back during COVID. I was like, okay. Somebody invited me 'cause they were interested in my work with Veronica. And so these Polish and German artists and one person from Slovenia came together in a research project. And they didn't know what to do. And for some reason, at the time, the zeitgeist at the time was a really, like a lot around healing in terms of World War II and the European Holocaust and genocide there. And so, and then the Polish people were so impacted by the war in another way. So this opened up a huge pot of research for me by looking into Veronika Blumstein. And I lived in Europe, but I had never gone into some of my own personal roots. And so I did a lot of ancestral work at the time. And then through that project many things came up because they wrote a fictional--they wrote about a fictional character who happened to be a Jewish woman who escaped and went to New York and studied with all these people that were like part of my own dance lineage. So it became a lineage project. So in that way, I was like weaving together all of these different things. Now, like curation is kind of, I'm, it happens globally, but I know it because I've spent so much time in Europe, like this kind of careful 'cause curation--because they have different funding sources. So in the US, our, the field of dance curation has grown so much and it's--there's so many amazing people doing great projects. But my work in curation, well, I just recently did this Think Gravity Project, which we'll talk about. But I did a big project called the Live Legacy Project. And so I was invited by a former classmate of mine from the school I went to in Holland Center for New Dance Development, which became European Dance Development Center. And we did a whole cultural history on how dance migrated from US and Ukraine, uh, Ukraine--US and the UK through the Dutch school into Germany. So she was living in Germany and the German government gave a huge sum of money to this curation. So we had a symposium that resulted in a film, but we brought together many dance elders and then the younger generation. So it was a big intergenerational project. So we had workshops. So we did everything at the symposium. It wasn't a talking symposium. We had the workshops, intensives alongside the talks, alongside the films. But everybody went to everything. So it wasn't like, I will choose at a conference, it would be like a symposium for a hundred people. And then they came to everything. It was very, very well documented. They all experienced everything together. Yeah. So it's like educational and creative all at once and people got to share their work. Okay. So in that way, like the curation is a way to bring about a living archive. So I'm interested in curation that's very much alive. Does that make sense? 00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:26.222 It does. 00:29:26.222 --> 00:29:35.275 Okay. There's a lot of topics we're we're hitting now, so I hope they're making sense. 00:29:35.275 --> 00:29:47.000 They are. So, you talk, have talked a lot about, you know, previous to this interview about your involvement with Arts and Lectures on campus. 00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:48.809 Yes. 00:29:48.809 --> 00:30:02.505 And so, like a more broad question is what does campus and community service look like in your career over the years? But I know that Arts and Lectures, you know, we talked about as being a substantial-- 00:30:02.505 --> 00:33:42.000 Yes. Well, before I get into Arts and Lectures, what's interesting is I'm flashing now to David Avalos, who was a mentor for me. And, he really helped me when I arrived here, especially with my file, because I, like my service and my scholarship and my teaching all intertwined. And the committees at first didn't really get that. So he had me write this intro and it was really helpful. And so I also share that forward with other people I'm on committees with because it's known now. But even twenty years ago when I was a PhD student, we didn't do a practical PhD. Now there's many practicing dance PhDs. And at the time, one of the most famous godmothers of dance studies, my mentor, Susan Foster, said, Karen, you need to put dancing aside for a while. Get reading, get writing. And I didn't really do that at the time. I still was, I had a very active performing career, and I was curating with a group called Lower Left in San Diego. So it's just like doing way too much. But that's what I did for a large, most of my life. So it's that intertwining of these things that I think is really important. That my service here was always intertwined with my own work in the classroom. Because also, I was performing with students or creating performances with students both at the, in the early years. And it was like, that was my service. I didn't get course release or it wasn't counted as a class, even though I was teaching a class or a project that added another ten hours a week for six to eight weeks. So that's what we do, though. We dance. You gotta make the work. It doesn't fit into a four hour a week class. So my service really got intertwined entwined with dancing. But then I got involved right away because I had been curating in Europe. I had been cur--you know, when I was teaching at the clown school was my first curating. And then I, when I arrived here, I got involved with Bonnie Biggs from the Library, who was running Arts and Lectures, and she invited Mtfiti Imara, Dr. Imara, to do a performance. So that was another big project. He did a--he created a song that was called Power to the People. And I had a group of dancers. It was all extracurricular in our first year. We did a big performance at Center for the Arts in Escondido. It was amazing. And then Bonnie--oh, and then another curatorial thing was happening was Dr. Andrea Liss, who I collaborated with a lot, and Dr. Kristine Diekman. I mean, excuse me. Not Dr. Professor. (Kristine. I love you. You know, it's just as important. what you've done.) Okay. So they were doing a women's rights symposium. So in my second year or my first year--I can't remember, it's in the flyer (points to flyer). It was a really wonderful symposium. So I made a student piece for that, intergenerational. I was on a panel and then I also performed, they invited me. I did this piece in the late nineties called Monster Girl. And it was a very pop piece, feminist piece. And I wore, like, you know, I was standing on a Tide box and doing my soapbox and dancing to Mission Impossible. And it was just like wild. Blue wig-- 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:43.000 I saw the box up there-- 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:44.882 Oh yeah. Blue wig. Oh-- 00:33:44.882 --> 00:33:45.617 --that says Monster Girl. 00:33:45.617 --> 00:36:43.000 Oh yeah. It has the handcuffs in it, too. I mean, it was just like this kind of rant about women's rights. And so they knew I did the piece. Kristine had actually seen it at Sushi Performance and Visual Arts in '98. So they invited me to perform that. So I kind of came off and running, like performing, early on a lot. I performed a lot less as the years grew on, and I became more administratively driven. So yeah, so that was a curatorial piece. And then Meryl Goldberg picked up Arts and Lectures, and I was on the committee when she was interim. And then she got started in Center ARTES, so I came on and that was a big part of my service for the University. I worked with Marilyn Huerta for many years and for about--I think I was running it for five years. I used to call myself the unofficial Director 'cause they didn't give me that position. That's what--didn't really didn't compensate me. It was just my service, but I can tell you it was more than nine hours a week. And we did between thirty-nine and forty-two events a year for many years. And even the language that's on the website, I'm like, maybe you should update it. No offense (no shade there, Gina, or the committee). Hey, if it's still working, I'm honored. You know, Meryl also came up with some of those, uh, invoke, inspire. So, but I really brought so many performances to this campus. I mean, Dance has always done at least two a year, but I could tell you this year, we got an IRA grant this school year. We did, I don't know, but there must have been--but I have other faculty working with me. So, but Dance Studies probably hosted at least twelve major public events open to the public. So a lot. So it's big. And then my other service to the campus was, I mean, I created the program. I wrote twenty-eight courses. Of course, they're not all offered. There wasn't any, there was a, few courses on the books, and I did keep one called Global Modern Dance, which I think is very sophisticated. Don Funes wrote that when he founded the program. And, I mean, I guess you probably have knew, you already know the history of this program. It started off as an interdisciplinary program, and then there was the desire to branch out into our own disciplines. But there's always been a desire to work cross-disciplinary and interdisciplinary. and Dance always does. We work with theater, we've worked with visual art, we've worked with literature and writing, we've worked with women's studies, we've worked with theater. And so I've done many projects with all of the faculty. I was actually hired as a collaborator that wasn't going--the job description was to be a collaborator. Even though it was for somebody in dance, was to be a collaborator. So I did that. I definitely did that. 00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:44.000 Yeah, you did. 00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:48.264 Yeah. Am I talking too fast, also? 00:36:48.264 --> 00:36:50.815 I think that you are doing just fine. 00:36:50.815 --> 00:36:55.025 Okay, great. Okay. It's a lot. 00:36:55.025 --> 00:37:13.000 Okay. So you've done a substantial amount of international work, and you talked about your desire to live overseas and not be a tourist. And--but how has that work outside of the United States contributed to your development in the field? And you've already kind of touched on this. But if there's anything else you'd like to say. 00:37:13.000 --> 00:40:30.235 Well, to lift up our campus with the, especially with what's going on right now in the world i--the goal is for us to be global citizens. Isn't that part of our mission still? And so learning about other cultures and living elsewhere gives one that lived experience of intercultural exchange, opens your world perspective. It demands one to be flexible and adaptable. I'm open to new ideas. So it's really enriched my life a lot. And it's given me a lot of empathy, compassion, inspiration, all of those things for ways of being in the world. And, I mean, I've primarily worked in Europe, but I've also--I've been to Mexico a few times on some big projects. And those were really, really wonderful experiences. And because our campus is in, you know, our demographic is so Latinx, that it's really important for me to have firsthand experiences there. So I've traveled personally there, but I've also done artistic project projects there. And it's been an incredible experience. Most recently, I went to Pachuca with Kristine Diekman. And we did an incredible project with sound and movement and electronic art. It was really amazing. So that was so great. And it was based on Day of the Dead. And even though I'm not from that culture, people are super open, and I learned so much at the time. And in fact, my mom had just passed, and so they were like--there were ofrendas everywhere. It was very meaningful for me. I got to learn a lot. So it's like just stepping out of one's, where one's from, you know. So yeah. I mean, I think it's super important and I--really sad to hear that programs like that are in jeopardy right now in our country. 'Cause it's like huge. It's a win-win for everybody. So, but yeah, I've had really amazing experiences overseas. I mean, the school I went to in Holland, we were seventy students from twenty-three countries. So it was on one hand chaotic. But on the other hand, we were from a lot of different cultures, but our language was dance. So we were really in the room together and just, and, you know, there was a lot of nonverbal relational experiences. And so that's where dance comes in as its own language. And it's not a universal language, even though we all have, you know, not all, but many of us, or most of us who are fortunate enough to have our four limbs and or five limbs if you count your spine and your whatever, you know, count many, many limbs. But it was, it was a life changing experience for me. And I had traveled one year. I had traveled in my gap year as well, too. So it was an experience. Yeah. Very big travels (unintelligible). 00:40:30.235 --> 00:40:56.255 Okay. So now turning in earnest to your time at CSUSM--you've been a faculty member on campus for twenty-four years. You already talked about what brought you to CSUSM, but what has been the evolution of CSUSM for you and your time here? For example, what did dance on the campus look like in 2001 compared to now? 00:40:56.255 --> 00:42:50.000 Okay. Yeah. Like I mentioned, I had another offer in Idaho. I mean, I had a lot of interviews, so I was very fortunate for that. I got two offers, and it was kind of like no brainer. It was like, ah, this is just opening. There's so much potential. There were a few courses on the books and they were taught by a lecturer named Terry Sprig, to honor her. She's a dance artist, local. I don't know if she's making work still. So she taught a few classes, but I don't even know to the extent. But as soon as I came in, they gave us, it was, days were different. They were like, okay, you have ten days--they don't tell you us before you get hired--you have ten days to get the courses you want to teach on the books. We're gonna be fast tracking those in in UCC (University Curriculum Committee). I'm like, okay, I don't even know what it's called then. So I wrote some quick courses, and one of the courses I wrote was Women in Performance: Choreographies of Resistance 'cause that really came out of my research and my dissertation. And I did a lot of work on circus when I was in grad school. Even though I did contact improvisation, I did a lot of work on physical culture, the turn of the century, the turn of the 19th to the 20th century. So I got to put that class on the books. I put on a technique class and--but there was like, there was only like three classes. One was Global Modern Dance, which we kept, or was it Cultures in Motion? There was a few. Cultures in Motion we kept, too. Upper division general ed. And then, you know, Bill Bradbury was the chair, and he was like, you need an intro course, so write it. So we like--literally, I'm teaching three courses and then I had to write-- 00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:52.000 --this curriculum. All this curriculum. 00:42:52.000 --> 00:49:49.000 Yeah. Yeah. So it was a lot. But now it's, now it's really challenging. It's great. We don't get a lot of allocations because of how the students have a shopping cart and how they, how they go through the system. 'Cause we're still a Dance minor. So when I got here, there were only a couple of classes on the books. And I was offered the opportunity within the first ten days, faculty when we arrived, you jump in, you teach your three courses and you get on a committee and then we'd like you to write the courses you'd like to teach in the next ten days. I'm like, okay. So I did that. I know that one of the courses I wrote was called Women in Performance: Choreographies or Resistance 'cause I was really fresh outta graduate school. This was my research of feminism and performance. And so I taught that class for like twelve years. Really exciting. And it became a general--upper division general ed class. And I'm looking forward to teaching it when I come back FERPing (Faculty Early Retirement Program) actually, 'cause I haven't taught it for a while. And then I put technique classes on the books, and then we all were putting in these intro classes. So I put an Intro to Dance class on the books. I think at that time, it might have been a year or two later. It's hard to remember, but I wrote twenty-eight classes over time.mI am grateful to the Dean's office when Michael McDuffie was there and Ranjita Basu, and Michael gave me great advice on how to create curriculum that would satisfy many things. So I had a lot of topics courses at the beginning and things like that. So, I've also--one of the most popular classes--the program has grown in just so many ways. So we were just me. And then there were me one lecturer. And then at one point there were me and like five or six lecturers. And then it was down to just me and like two lecturers, you know, with the ups and downs of the, of our economy. And now we are just--it's been a wonderful group of people. We're five people. In fact, two of them are, one of them just got their PhD as well from UC Riverside. And another one is getting their PhD, Cuauhtemoc Peranda. And Dava Hernandez just got her degree too. So, and then we have Nhu Nguyen and we have finally got a new hire because that was supposed to be related to the development of our own major. And so after many years, Dance got another tenure track line. And so I'm working with Cheri Hill, doing great job and will be the next leader of Dance Studies. I'm really excited about that. Sheri comes with a lot of experience as a teaching artist, and she's worked in the field of arts and ed and dance and education. So before she came, I had already been working with Liberal Studies and Meryl Goldberg on creating a class that would feed Liberal Studies. So we do actually six courses a year that feed Liberal Studies. So that's great. But it's also, we are losing some of our allocations. So it's hard, but it's great. It's great for the field, it's great for the students. And I'm really excited about the way that's really grown. The other area of the program that's grown is like, the diversity of the kinds of classes we wrote, that I wrote, over the years. So I really tried to--we're not doing, like--we're not doing ballet, modern, and jazz, you know. We had hip hop. It declined. We're gonna have--Cheri just wrote a new course. We're gonna have a wonderful new intro to hip hop class coming on that's related to, it's called Hip Hop Fundamentals. So it'll really meet the criteria of general ed. And then we will learn about the history of hip hop and alongside the commercial aspects so, and the very, the strong politics of the field. So we're really doing a lot. And then I'm really proud of a class that I co-wrote called Contemporary Folklorico. So that course has been on the books for almost ten years now. And I wrote it with Alfonso Cervera, and he was a student over at UC Riverside as well, and now is teaching at Ohio State. Amazing job. Amazing leader in dance in terms of Latinx work. And so that class is one of our most popular classes. We teach five or six sections a year, too. And I'm really proud of that because it really meets our demographic here and serving our Hispanic service--our Hispanic learning institution goals. So I just think it's very important that dance just stays--it's an alive field. So it's also, it's not the course--like there were other institutions where you might go work and they would--at least 20 years ago--they would just hand you the book and they're like, here, teach this dance appreciation class. But I've always been like, no, you teach what you know, I'm gonna trust that you're gonna teach some breadth. So when I hire faculty, I make sure that they can teach the breadth of the field and touch on many things, but they can really focus in on their, on their areas of research. So Cuauhtemoc, for example, is really--their p PhD is on voguing. And so they're really teaching the students like the history of voguing, the roots of voguing, the political significance of voguing. And so it touches on a lot of different things in terms of sociology and political science and history. And so we do all of that. So all of the dance classes have built in a practice-theory component. So there's always something, whether it's just a project that's embodied--so the students step out outside of the box and have to do something physically--that you know, that they're able to do. So it's a very active learning environment in Dance Studies. And that's really different here. And I think school--other schools have grown into that, but I was able to start that off at the ground. And so I'm actually really proud of that. This program really fosters that way of learning. So we're not just like watching a movie, we're gonna, at some point you're gonna get up and either make a movie or do a documentary and step into what the work is. Yeah, so we're moving towards a major. Unfortunately it didn't pass UCC, and Cheri is leading that and I'm working with Cheri on that. And we're looking at it as really like a degree that meets many branches of the field. So we still wanna' be creating and nurturing those that wanna' be dance makers. We're also meeting the field of arts and education, integrative arts and learning, and also social justice. So, we could say that word (unintelligible). Social justice. 00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:50.835 Absolutely. 00:49:50.835 --> 00:49:55.625 Yes. All of those things are a threat today, so-- 00:49:55.625 --> 00:49:55.848 Yeah, of course. 00:49:55.848 --> 00:52:55.000 But that's what we do. And you know I will say like every course that got passed here has the word diversity in it because that's what we do in dance. Dance is a diverse field. And even though I'm a white woman, I mean, from the beginning I always started with Black dance in America because when I taught lower division general ed, because our country is built upon the history of African people. So, dance is so infused with the migrant experience from so many different cultures. So, and then over the years, we have done a few things with American Indian Studies as well. So we're, we're working, we're working it here on our campus. We do a lot of outreach. So whoever we're bringing in is working that way. It's very integrative. So just this semester I'm really proud of a project. Can I say a little bit more about that? In terms of curriculum? So, I always brought guest artists here. And because it's really important for students to meet people working in the field outside of the institution--even though I am working outside of the institution in the summers and in general with my research. But, so I've always brought in guest artists through Arts and Lectures but also through Dance Studies through grants and things like that. So we started off with a very small lab budget, and it's grown. So I have a little line item to bring in guest choreographers. So I've brought in some amazing people. Many of them my teachers. And so those projects really influence the curriculum. So even though we might offer a choreography class, students can take it three times because it'll be different every time. Yeah. And this year, we brought Dancing Through Prison Walls, and it was just a very profound experience. So, I got a nice grant from IRA (Instructionally Related Activities fund) and Arts and Lecturers, and they came, and we did a residency. So again, in terms of like the hours with dance--and I my offer students alternatives if they're working and they can't make it--but they, I always, for the last, before COVID, there were three years and, yeah, three years of artist residency projects. So artists would come and they would either stay with me or friends, or last year we got a little grant money, they could get their own Airbnb. But I put up several artists over the years and they'd make a piece with students and they would leave and then either I or another faculty member would nurture that. And Anya Cloud and I did that for several years together. We did that for three years, where artists would come for a week and then they would leave and then we would rehearse and nurture the piece all the way through the spring dance concert. So yeah. The spring dance concert is our culminating event. Yeah. It's amazing. Very big event. Did I answer your question? 00:52:55.000 --> 00:53:30.304 You did. Okay. So this is a little bit more general, but ,it sounds like, from what you've talked about and your history, that you could have chosen different paths when it comes to dance. Different career paths in terms of what you did with that. Or even back to the high school, right? Like what would've happened if you had gone to the performing arts high school? But you chose a career in higher education. How has that lived up to your expectations? 00:53:30.304 --> 01:03:00.324 Wow. Good question. I have to say I'm super grateful because at least in the U.S., there's not very many jobs in dance. I'm extremely grateful to have a salaried position in the beginning, a pension. So I don't take that lightly. And, yeah. That's big. And there's not that many jobs in dance and higher education. So I feel very, very fortunate that I got this job as well. And that's why when I got it, I mean, I take it very, very seriously. There's a lot of work to be done in the field. And this--I don't even like the word fighters--but everybody working in dance and higher education is, we're fighting for it all 'cause the resources are less and less, unless you're in certain institutions. But it's a lot. It's a lot of work. So I worked really hard, I realized. My mom used to even say--'cause I, when I was chair also of VPA (Visual and Performing Arts) for a year and a half, almost two years. Interim chair. And I would go see my parents on spring break 'cause they're from the East coast. And so I'd bring my computer and my mother would be like, You gotta' take a break. You gotta' take a break. You gotta' take a break. So, yeah, I mean I worked a lot. I worked way more than forty hours a week in this job, like way more. And I don't have any regrets. I'm a little tired, maybe, but I know I'll refuel. Hence retiring a little sooner than I thought I was going to. 'Cause we'll probably get to that question, I imagine. Somewhere along the way. But, you know, our campus has grown a lot, but we all in the School of Arts are working hard. You know, we, how do I say this? Lots of gratitude, but we've all, you know, we've all talked about how we need space, how we need a theater. Our university has grown to a size that we're really ready for--I'm not so fixed on dance has to be in a theater. But we do need a place. So I think dance could grow more and could have grown more had we had a space. So we have a beautiful studio that doubles as a black box theater and we share it with Theater. But that's all we have. So, and then we use--Music, Theater, and Dance share the theater, the performance hall that was designed for music. So that's been hard. And so it's like, it gets to be, I used--I don't even use the expression anymore, but for like five, the last five years, I'm like, broken record. Like, we cannot, how, you know, what do you need? Or, you know, if I'm writing with Cheri, the needs that we'll need to have a major, and just because we write we need space doesn't mean that that should halt the major. We have to keep moving forward. But it's that whole what what comes first. It doesn't really work in today's economy, but dance is more important than ever, I believe. And I think the, our SoCal and our nation's culture around dance has changed so much in positive ways. With social media and many things. I'm like, wow. You know, and when I, you know, there was like ten years where people are like, do you watch Dancing With the Stars? When it came out. And I'm kind of like, no you know, like I don't have time to watch that show. Or, you know, like, oh I'm going to the theater this weekend. Because I'm really into promoting for students live art, live dance. Students, when they go and see a show here, they've never been--so many students.have never been to the theater. And it's like, so I really, I'm so grateful for my parents that I had that experience. And again, we weren't, I was from a very working class family, but it was a priority for my parents. And my mom used to take me to Brooklyn College. So I saw like really traditional, amazing Black dance in America throughout the seventies. I mean, my dance education was really opened by having my grandparents in New York and going in and out of New York. And my mother would just take me to these things that I probably would never have seen before. So, I just think the live art experience is really important, and I think our University could be cultivating that more. So that's an expect--that's one criticism. Like we had a President who called it the crown jewel, and it really is, and it could be more of a cultural hub. So that, but otherwise, you know, like I'm super grateful. It took me a long time to get to the pro--dance program. So I worked for fifteen years just doing what a program director does but not compensated for that. I just built the program because what else was I gonna' do? Everybody else was building around me. So I'm like, okay, well build a program. So I kind of floated around a little bit. So I reported to Visual Arts for a while and, but I was still doing the work of being a director. So it's really my--the art. When we sent things up to CAPC (Curriculum and Academic Policy Committee), there was a year that, my colleagues stood up for me and said, It's now time for dance to get a hire. So, to be a program. And then there was the moment where to get a hire--so I was, dance got ranked finally for a hire--but that took like five years once the School of Arts stood behind dance, moving up the line. So there was just many, many years where I was carrying everything. You know, I had a great colleague in Anya Cloud did a lot, and Cherie Hill is doing an amazing job. And all of the lecturers right now are above and beyond. But I also, and I also give them autonomy to do what they want. First of all, I can't do it all on my own anymore, but it's like, in terms of positionality, you know, we're very, we've got a wide spectrum of cultural identities and ethnic identities in our makeup of our program. And that's really important. And so for me, it's like I need to step aside what other people bring, people who they wanna' bring. Even though we always had conversations, I was kind of carrying it. But that now I'm able to find a little pot of money so that they can get a little stipend for curating something that they wanna' bring. So I'm really--contact improvisation at it's heart is about horizontal politics, so I lead with horizontal politics here. And I always have too much information. I send too many emails after the Dean's meeting, even though they're lecturers, I'd send them what's going on because we're, we say we're small and mighty. So in order for the program to grow, let the young people come forward as well. Though I do believe in intergenerational, but I also believe, you know, let the young people come forward. And Cheri is doing and also she's gonna do a great job. And she's already done so much since she's here. So, I trust that it's gonna carry forward. I don't know in what ways, but I'm open to that. You know, and I think I, I believe and have faith that the School of Arts is in full support of Dance. I have great colleagues. I've done many things, but we're all working really hard so--but it's just a great group of people. It always has been. So what was the question? Has CSUSM lived to my exectations? Well, yeah. I would say yes. And yet we know we really, we do need some more space, and I wish we had more allocations 'cause we can't build the min--we can't build the major unless we get the classes. And then you can't get the classes if you can't offer them. And you can't get, you can't offer them if the students don't sign up for them. So there was that moment where the shopping cart card came forward for students. I don't think that was great. I liked when we used to do--it was a lot of work. And even I didn't have a program I used to advise for Visual and Performing Arts. So I would have my own list. You know, the chair would say, Karen, here's your list. You're gonna advise all these people. Okay, what, what do they need to take? You know, they're visual arts students. But these halls used to be full, lined up, you know, when we'd be registering for classes. So you'd get to really meet the students, but then you would ensure that all these classes are gonna be full. But now the students, it's a different climate, but, you know, I can't change the system, so-- 01:03:00.324 --> 01:03:04.231 Bringing on the technology and you know, having-- 01:03:04.231 --> 01:05:40.445 it's great. But it's also, I think students, they need the advice and the opportunity to sit down with not just advising, but here. I think I'm taking a tangent from the--okay. So I hope, I hope that the, I hope that, yeah. I've also, the other thing that I've done with the curriculum that I've been en enabled to do with some amazing colleagues on our campus is create community engagement projects. I didn't really talk about that, but I did a few highlights. I did-- I started the collaboration with A Step Beyond, and our dean is now on the board, a fairly new dean, Dean Leora Gubkin. And for five years I taught a class over there. So, and that really ties into our dance and education pathway that may or may not grow into directly into that, but it's a great opportunity for students. And Meryl is working with Cheri and other faculty on this big arts and education certification. Arts certification project. So we're really in that already. And then I've gotten a few students jobs over at A Step Beyond. And so that was great. And I worked with Community Engagement. I got a little stipend at one point to work with them and create a course that was specific to working with them called Dance in the Community. That was inspired by Kristine Diekman as well. She did a big video in the community project for many years that always inspired me. She made public service announcements with like, so many underserved communities in our area. And so she's always been like, how do you do that? So she, she lit the way for me, so I wanna' acknowledge her also in this interview. So there was that. And then I did, I worked with Veronica Anover and worked at the Glenner Town Center, which is an Alzheimer's day center. And we did a whole project there. And then I did another fundraiser over at the Conrad Prebys theater in La Jolla. So I've done a few big community projects. I worked with the Museum of--it was called Museum of Man then--at Balboa Park. And I worked with Judy Bauerlein, and we brought guest artists there, and we did big project there. So I think those kinds of experiences for students are so important. 01:05:40.445 --> 01:05:45.172 Yeah. And a lot of like community feelers and outreach. 01:05:45.172 --> 01:06:24.000 Yeah. And bringing community to campus, too. I've brought a lot of community to campus 'cause I brought some well-known artists here. So different schools would come here. I worked with NCHEA (North County Higher Education Alliance) as well for like five years in my early days. And we did some really big projects. We brought legendary Donald McKayle here. He was at UC Irvine. He was already in his late seventies, early eighties when he came. I think it was early eighties. And he was the Alvin Aileys teacher. And so we've done, we've done some big things. I'm sure there will be more big things. Yeah. So to our little campus, we've done some big projects. 01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:59.605 That's right. Okay. So this is changing gear a bit. Okay so my, the overarching question is what did you do during Covid? But in our pre-interview you mentioned, you talked about the double pandemic and that the Covid-19 virus increased awareness of systemic racism. So the question really is what did you do during Covid? When we were all kind of locked inside-- 01:06:59.605 --> 01:14:20.635 Well, I did a lot during Covid. I--with the rise of Black Lives Matter and the murder of George Floyd, you know, everything stopped in certain ways. And I immediately, you know--for a moment--and then I immediately gathered with other colleagues in School of Arts, a few of us, we worked the entire summer to create a series. We got some money from the dean's office through some donors, through the Wagner family. And we used all of that money to program online lectures and performances. So that was like a big project. I don't know. We did at least nine, ten events per semester that was open to whole campus. But we really geared it towards School of art students to get them, to get them going. And it was, at that time during COVID, too, there was a HBCU (Historically Black Colleges and Universities) project that I worked that Mtifiti Imara invited me to be part of. So I worked with a faculty member.So the artist that we worked with was T. Lang. And we also worked with Melicia Taylor, who's become a friend and collaborator Melicia was a lecturer here in Music. So Melicia was also hired. So these are significant Black artists. Melicia is a sound designer and an opera singer. And Melicia came here and brought compositions. And we did a piece with, I think it was my choreography class. It was choreography or improvisation. We did a dance film called I Am, and the students did their own choreographies at home. And then she worked with a filmmaker to sew it together. So we did a film. I brought another artist. We were still in--well we were just opening--Jose Abad from San Francisco, another Black artist. So I brought a lot of--working with a lot of Black artists to campus. I was doing that. like I said, I've been doing that all along. But it was really a focus on that with HBCU--our campus relationship grew with that. Cheri just did that project this year. So yeah, I was really amazed at that. And we worked with students. We came in even though the campus was on lockdown. We got permission to come in and students got to work with some of these choreographers over Zoom and made their own works. So Skyla Miles and Minnie Atkins both made work, both alum from Dance Studies with, during this HBCU project. Also brought, Mayfield Brooks, who was very known in New York and in Europe and South America, and well, globally, for her work with--she calls it improvising while Black. And she has written a lot and did a lot of projects around Black culture and survival and things. So yeah, it was very, very prolifically busy and happening. And then at the same time, I was gearing up for my sabbatical application. And so even though we were in, still in Covid, I wrote my application to do this project called Think Gravity Dance Tank. So that was really involving--it was happening still during Covid. And we had a symposium and it was taking on the 50th anniversary of contact improvisation. So that's my, it was almost a continuation. It's kind of is a continuation of what I wrote about in my PhD in 2001 about contact not being universalist and who writes the history. So we brought forward some less recognized histories. So Ishmael Houston-Jones was my teacher in Holland way back when, in 1990. No, 1989. 1989. That's his brick (points to brick on window sill). He has a very famous bit called White Hope that he dances with this brick and he's danced with a brick internationally. And he's a very well respected artist. So it was a very creative way to do a curatorial project, where we invited four people, and we let them invite four people. And then we brought students. So Anya Cloud got a job at, in Boulder, University of Colorado. So they have a much bigger facility. So we did it there. And we had a week-long symposium, and we called it a reckoning with contact improvisation. And we stepped back 'cause we're both white women and we let everybody else lead. And, but we held the container and things like that. And then from that, we created a film because we had so much stuff. We had interview, we interviewed everybody, and then we had incredible footage. So we made a documentary. That documentary won best documentary at the Toronto Dance Film Festival. So we were happy with that. Or Contact Festival (Contact Dance International Film Festival) was just recently. And we've screened it in a few places, and it's gotten really good feedback. So it's a bit of a reckoning with the history in terms of who's identified 'cause contact improvisation is historicized as very white. Whereas its influences are very much based in African American culture, history and ways of working in jazz music and things like that. In terms of what is a jam, what is it to improvise. And then also there is a history of Eastern Asian American and Asian art influences in terms of what is yielding, what is gravity, what is meditation. So we brought in other voices to speak about cultural histories and positionality in terms of race and culture. So it was really, it was really productive and it was a deep experience. And it was cool 'cause we brought--I got student success funds from here and Anya got some money from her institution. So we involved, we were about twenty-six people, something like that. Between twenty-four and twenty-eight. But half of them were students. So it was really important to bring the future forward. So again, this was another project that really is based in intergenerational community and containers. And I'm really happy 'cause Makisig Akin is Philippinx and they took the model of curation and they did a whole BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, People of Color) dance festival in Berlin, probably one of the first or of the first. And they used that model of curation and they were really, really excited that, to learn that way of curating. So there's that curating piece of mine, too, that yeah. People, if nobody curates, then you're not gonna' have the work, you know And we're, it's strong to curate one at a time, but it's also strong to curate symposiums that bring people togetherfor some time. Yeah. 01:14:20.635 --> 01:14:32.795 Okay. So do you have work, a work that you've accomplished in your career that has been most impactful in your opinion? 01:14:32.795 --> 01:14:34.704 Impactful on the field or-- 01:14:34.704 --> 01:14:35.805 To you. 01:14:35.805 --> 01:14:42.104 Oh, to me or to the field? 01:14:42.104 --> 01:14:46.305 Or both. 01:14:46.305 --> 01:16:17.000 Well, in terms of my training, my work with Debra Hay affected my perceptual improvisation very greatly. So Deborah Hay is a, still working artist and dance elder. And I studied with her, I saw her perform in Holland, but I wasn't in her class. And then I brought her with this group Lower Left that I worked with for many years in San Diego. So I've dipped in and out of her work. And I'm really proud that I recently got to perform with her in her work at the Getty. It was a re-dance, a recreation of a work from the sixties. So she was a very significant artist that emerged in the sixties. And she's continued to emerge internationally. So she really had a great impact on my career of how I dance. But I think--I don't know, it's such a hard question. I guess--now I'll get a little emotional because I guess creating the program is probably my biggest impact. I mean, it was a lot of work. 01:16:17.000 --> 01:16:19.000 A lot of work. A lot of really important work. 01:16:19.000 --> 01:19:24.505 I hope University continues to support it. I mean, I think it had the greatest impact 'cause I--thousands of students have taken dance classes here. And I'm sure, because you can read it, some of them was whoa, but most of them always write in the evals, I didn't know dance could be like this, or I didn't know--I just can't imagine that we would talk about dance like this, or dance could be this way or this class--even if I'm not teaching it. But creating a program where the people are invited to teach what they love to teach, to teach what they know and but to also really keep bringing in this idea that we're gonna embody the learning. I think San Marcos is unique like that, and I think the way it's open has and its opening, is pretty unique. And, but I guess, you know, I've, and I've done Summer Arts as well, so I've worked within the system and I did six summers with Summer Arts. I did two as an artist. One was during my hire, one was before my hire. And that program is over. It just got closed. 'Cause one of the biggest things the State of California did for the arts was like, oh my gosh. But I think it's, I guess I never really thought about that when you said is there some favorite work? And I was like, favorite, I mean, you know, Think Gravity was enormous. Veronica was enormous. Live Legacy was enormous. You know? I had a big practice in San Diego with people for seven years. We met every Thursday researching dance, and then I'll show you after on the wall. Lower Left was huge part of my life. Holland, Riverside was huge. But I guess the biggest accomplishment or impact, the greatest impact would be I guess this Wow. I never thought about it like that. When I visited, when I was doing, um, the Deborah Hay work--Deborah Hay is friends with Susan Foster, who's the, who I referred to as the godmother of dance studies. I don't know if she'd like that title, but I'll give it to her. She was like--I went to visit her house. She was like, You did it. She, because I think when they took me into that program, I was a bit of a wild card card 'cause they took a lot of scholars. They didn't--at the time wasn't practicing PhD, but I was dancing, like really committed to dancing and performing still. And so I was a bit of a wild card. I didn't get the, I didn't get the scholarship, you know, the first year. I didn't get the teaching the first year. They took me, but they didn't give me the, they didn't give me the scholarship. And, but I was like, I'm gonna do this anyway and see how I like it. And so that, but she looked at me, she's like, You did it. 'Cause you know, I guess I did, right? There's a program here. So time to let it go to the next people. 01:19:24.505 --> 01:19:26.000 Well, that comes to the last question-- 01:19:26.000 --> 01:19:28.000 --the last question, I imagine-- 01:19:28.000 --> 01:19:29.000 which is-- 01:19:29.000 --> 01:19:30.496 now you got me going. 01:19:30.496 --> 01:19:43.234 Oh it's. We want to, we want to get your feelings in there, too. What do you plan to do both personally and professionally in your retirement? 01:19:43.234 --> 01:23:27.185 Well, the first thing I want to do, and I am doing it, is slowing down a bit. I'm coming off of a season of lot of loss, too, a lot of loss of family. So yeah, I wanna' slow down. So I'm gonna slow down this summer and do some organizing. Continue to clean the office a little bit. And also, um, yeah, do some organizing. And then planning for my fall. I'm gonna go to Austria. I've been invited by my mentor, Donna Ray, who's a top-level Feldenkrais teacher. And she runs the institute in Vienna, the training institute. So I'm gonna' go with, there's a brand-new cohort starting. So I rented myself an apartment overlooking some park in Vienna, and it has a beautiful view of a park. And I'll walk through the park every morning and I, I'll be an assistant in the training. That means I'll be working basically. And I'm hoping that will really hone my skills even more so as I transition into retirement, I'm still gonna' be working. I'm not like retiring. So there's a woman who, as a dance legend, there's just many dance legends, you know, who work into their nineties. It's not like you stop. I really think I will always be working in the field in some way. I don't know what that is yet. I would like to curate in a theater, but they don't have those kinds of spaces in San Diego anymore, where you can just have a studio like that where you can. That's one of the things I would, I could imagine. So I'm gonna' do that and I'm gonna' go to visit a former student who's now a well-known Swiss actress and has a wonderful family. So I'm gonna' stay with her and watch her on the big stage and take a walk in the Alps. And then I'm going to do a vocal training. And it something--it's called Roy Hart. And I studied with them in San Francisco, one of their proteges. It's in a long line of lineage from the thirties and forties. And it's a vocal technique that was used in theater, like experimental theater, in the fifties and sixties. But it's also like, I'll use the word therapy. I'm not afraid of that. It's therapeutic as all art can be therapeutic, healing. Like let's transform. That's what we do in the arts, we transform. So I'm going to study some voice. And then when I come back, I'm already invited--there's a, I used to, I put myself through graduate school as a Pilates trainer, even though I'm not certified at Pilates. But I'm gonna bring Feldenkrais into their Pilates studio and do like a little one night a week class. And then, my friend Anya is up for--Anya and Mcsig are up for a big, NEFA, the New England Foundation of the Arts is one of the few funders that give fairly big money in dance in our country. They're a finalist if they get that they're doing an interdisciplinary dance project. And I guess I'll be performing. So that's the goal. The goal is to keep doing yoga, dance, walk, social activism. And I also like to paint and write. 01:23:27.185 --> 01:23:27.965 Wow. 01:23:27.965 --> 01:23:33.154 We'll see. There'll be a little more time for that. Yeah. 01:23:33.154 --> 01:23:36.994 I love that. You're gonna keep busy. 01:23:36.994 --> 01:23:41.045 Yeah, I'll be busy, but I've also, this summer, I'm gonna slow it down. 01:23:41.045 --> 01:23:51.000 And that's really good, too. So is there anything else you'd like to talk about in this interview? 01:23:51.000 --> 01:25:41.064 I think what I would like to do though is we talked about taking a few photos. And I'm really happy--I guess what I'll say is that I'm really happy that the University's interested in this interview and maybe scanning some of the posters and all things that were presented. Maybe they can even use it to use it as fuel to get a theater or a bigger production venue. Or, or a unit that would like to take care of some of these things so that faculty don't have to do all that work, But I also, I guess I wanna' really honor the founding faculty. Maybe just take a moment. I could close with that. Everybody worked really hard, and I'm really honored to have been part of the upstart. And I hope and believe that our campus will keep on during whatever's going on in the world. And I really hope that the arts can really stay strong here. Yeah. I think we are such an incredible group of artists in the School of Arts, so I just wanna' wish everybody well and to keep on. And I really, I hope that students will--and faculty and committees and the administration will--see really the value of what Dance does. 'Cause dance is really, plays a big role in the world. And like I said, it can be a lot of fun, but it goes way deeper than that. 01:25:41.064 --> 01:25:57.645 Well, that's a really great note to end on. Yeah. Thank you. And I just want to thank you for allowing us to celebrate you and your career and every, all the hard work that you've done all of this time. And I know there's a lot more to come for you, but kind of at this milestone-- 01:25:57.645 --> 01:25:58.354 Thank you. 01:25:58.354 --> 01:26:01.805 --you know, moment for you. Just thank you for sharing with us. 01:26:01.805 --> 01:26:09.234 Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Yeah, thank you. 01:26:09.234 --> 01:29:28.000 There's a few projects that I'd like to highlight that were highly sponsored by the University and that had a great, also had a great impact on my life. And the first one is a project called United and Severed. I think that I will reach for the pamphlet to refresh myself on how important this project was. So I did this with Professor Kristine Diekman, and actually this project was really personal, but I was able to take a very personal experience--this is what artists do if you don't write memoirs, and they take it out into the world. And so it was following my own--I had a very severe traumatic injury while I was employed here. Lived through that. And I stood in as like a surrogate body on film for the topic of that window of time. So it deals with women and traumatic injury and PTSD. So at the time, I was also in close relationship with somebody who is working as a active--not active duty--non-active duty for the military, who was working around soldiers and PTSD and the Afghanistan and Iran and Iraq aftermath. And so Kristine and I looked for alum and students from our school, who were survivors of traumatic injury and how they dealt with it. And so Kim Anderson is--was in it and she was a CSUSM Liberal Studies major. And Ivy Kensinger was a student of mine and also Veronica Anover. She survived a horrific car accident on the way to campus. And turns out she is now a PhD in psychology. So very--came through in a miracle way. And we did a project that was a very poetic representation of movement and understanding disability. So that was featured. And we also worked with Butoh dancers because it was also during the time of some wild fires out in East County. So we took a group of students and we took down a tree from the extremities down to the trunk that was burned. And Richard Keeley is a professor, was a professor at San Diego State--is retired. and Anna O'Cain is a professor, visual art professor, who was working at Miracosta. And we did a huge project together that was featured at Center for the Arts Escondido. So I really wanted to highlight that. It was a very deep project. We have beautiful video footage. Kristine did an incredible job editing. I was sitting alongside her. She pushed all the buttons. Of course, it was really her editing that made the project so spectacular. And our work was featured in many film festivals internationally. So I just really wanted to mention that we have this beautiful artifact from that. And then the other project that I wanted to talk about was, um, wait a minute. 01:29:28.000 --> 01:29:30.315 Your palliative care work. 01:29:30.315 --> 01:30:59.000 Oh, my current work that I will continue when I'm, that I actually have a meeting in ten minutes for, that I'm working with Palliative Care--that's a pilot project--that's run by Michael McDuffie. And I'm working with Ranjita Basu and Andrew Spieldenner. And now we have a cohort of people from the Mindfulness Center working on it. And we're working with Elizabeth Healthcare Center, Elizabeth Hospice Center. And we're doing a once-a-month project on mindfulness. And so I'm bringing in the somatic piece. So really it's been a great, We've been working on that together for about a year and a half. And now we're enacting it over there in Escondido. And next week we'll have our third monthly session, and it will go through the year. So I will be still staying involved as a volunteer for that, while I'm off the books. And so I'm very happy to be doing practical applications in different fields. And that connects as I interweave everything that I've said today, that you know, that what I do with dance and what I believe dance can do in the world has a great impact because we're working with the body and compassionate empathy. We all have a body. We're always moving, even if it's, we're just, we're down to the breath. Breath is movement. And so with that, I'll just take a breath and say thank you. 01:30:59.000 --> 01:31:00.000 Thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Schaffman, Karen. Interview June 6, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-084 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-06-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Karen Schaffman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Higher education Dance Study and teaching Improvisation in dance Movement education California State University San Marcos -- Faculty Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Connecticut Amherst (Mass.) Riverside (Calif.) San Francisco (Calif.) Holland Germany Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Karen Schaffman Art and artists CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/ea24b429155af41d444a44919d85e657.pdf ab3045bf6d40ed747bf10654c0b06d48 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Knowles, Cheryl (Cheryl Dinning). Interview transcript, May 16, 2013. Description An account of the resource Transcript of interview of Cheryl Knowles (Cheryl Dinning), Petty Officer First Class, United States Navy. In her interview, Knowles discusses her enlistment, basic and advanced training, and four deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. Knowles also discusses life in the Navy, including shipboard life, as well as what it was like serving in the Navy as a lesbian during the Don't Act, Don't Tell era, and how it forced her to lead a double life and impacted her ability to be her genuine self and to grieve the loss of her daughter. This interview was conducted as part of the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project, now called the CSUSM Veterans Voices project. WAHA was conducted by the California State University San Marcos History Department in collaboration with the CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center) from 2012-2013. The project aimed to document, preserve, and make accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. Portions of this interview were edited, including the removal of the interviewer from the recording. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cheryl Knowles (Cheryl Dinning) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Anthony Mino California State University San Marcos. History Department Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-16 Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001-2021 Gay military personnel--United States Great Lakes Naval Training Center (Great Lakes, Ill.) Iraq War, 2003-2011 LGBTQ+ life United States. Navy United States. Navy -- Recruiting, enlistment, etc. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Afghanistan Dubai Iraq San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived War At Home and Abroad oral histories Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/4/resources/55">CSUSM Veterans Voices oral histories</a> (external link) Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KnowlesCheryl_WAHA_2013-05-16_transcript Community history CSUSM Veterans Voices LGBTQIA+ experience Veteran experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/bfc2d82b5e9047e6b1800bd05678e389.pdf bd0290ddc910011850030dbfa284a3ab Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rafael, Joel. Interview transcript, August 20, 2025. Description An account of the resource Joel Rafael is an American singer-songwriter and folk musician from San Diego County, California. Joel has been making music with his band and solo for over fifty years. He is well known for his writing and performance in the style of Woody Guthrie. In this part one interview, Rafael discusses his early musical influences, his participation in the 1960s counterculture movement, and the beginnings of his success in the music industry. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joel Rafael Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-08-20 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joel Rafael License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RafaelJoel_FabbiJennifer_2025-08-20_transcript Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Chicago (Ill.) Covina (Calif.) West Covina (Calif.) Portland (Oregon) Seattle (Wash.) Fallbrook (Calif.) Subject The topic of the resource Songwriters -- United States Folk music Counterculture -- United States Guthrie, Woody, 1912-1967 Art and artists Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Martin Leyva OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Leyva, Martin. Interview October 27, 2022 SC027-19 02:24:21 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection Campus oral histories CSUSM csusm Formerly incarcerated individuals Imprisonment Parolees Prison-industrial complex San Marcos (Calif.) Santa Barbara (Calif.) Transitions (Program) California State University San Marcos. Project Rebound MiraCosta College. Transitions Program Palomar College. Transitions Program Martin Leyva Sean Visintainer mp4 LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.mp4 1.0:|16(8)|33(11)|51(12)|62(7)|79(8)|91(15)|111(5)|126(4)|145(12)|155(12)|178(8)|192(7)|205(5)|218(8)|235(15)|251(15)|270(10)|282(11)|295(4)|311(3)|321(3)|341(3)|350(13)|363(6)|379(14)|391(4)|402(11)|414(3)|425(9)|443(8)|461(12)|479(13)|491(3)|507(8)|525(8)|539(6)|551(17)|572(13)|585(11)|600(6)|614(11)|628(18)|647(5)|673(10)|707(13)|728(4)|749(10)|770(5)|800(9)|813(10)|822(10)|849(8)|862(12)|875(12)|907(17)|916(12)|941(13)|954(7)|972(5)|988(9)|1013(15)|1034(12)|1055(4)|1068(6)|1098(4)|1113(9)|1147(4)|1179(8)|1198(7)|1225(3)|1243(4)|1262(14)|1293(17)|1310(7)|1329(11)|1347(16)|1364(8)|1406(2)|1460(5)|1478(4)|1494(4)|1519(16)|1538(18)|1557(9)|1589(7)|1603(4)|1626(8)|1642(12)|1664(9)|1693(10)|1720(13)|1739(4)|1750(3)|1777(3)|1789(3)|1809(4)|1842(11)|1866(20)|1900(16)|1918(19)|1928(12)|1947(7)|1967(4)|1986(7)|1998(13)|2023(17)|2041(15)|2062(12)|2076(7)|2097(3)|2119(16)|2147(9)|2158(9)|2173(6)|2204(3)|2225(4)|2238(4)|2251(17)|2273(5)|2305(2)|2317(9)|2328(10)|2347(9)|2360(5)|2386(10)|2406(15)|2425(5)|2444(16)|2472(12)|2494(9)|2506(17)|2530(4)|2543(12)|2563(4)|2582(7)|2600(10)|2611(3)|2622(6)|2641(6)|2666(10)|2678(10)|2700(4)|2721(9)|2732(3)|2747(12) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c5caf9a55a3ead1fafbf38f16091217c.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Introduction of Martin Leyva (narrator) and date and place of interview (October 27th, 2022 at California State University San Marcos University Library). 0 23 Roles at Cal State San Marcos, Palomar College, and MiraCosta College Leyva discusses his roles with Project Rebound at California State University San Marcos, as well as with the Transitions Programs at Palomar and MiraCosta Colleges, and his role as a Professor of Sociology. Leyva also discusses the Rising Scholars community college program, and what support from university and system administrations, as well as the nonprofit sector looks like. California State University San Marcos ; MiraCosta College ; Palomar College ; professional development ; Project Rebound ; Rising Scholars ; Transitions Program 0 494 Typical day of work Leyva discusses what a day of work is like for him, including supporting students, and the emotional labor that comes with his work, how to build trust with formerly incarcerated students, and what success looks like in his role. academic instruction ; California State University San Marcos ; emotional labor ; MiraCosta College ; Palomar College ; scholarship ; student success ; trust-building 0 1453 Santa Barbara City College and the Transitions Program Leyva relates how he was released from prison and had trouble with employment. At the recommendation of his niece, Leyva attended college and began forming a community with other formerly incarcerated students, which led to an informal support group. Leyva relates how that support group became a cohort model for formerly incarcerated individuals Employment ; Extended Opportunities, Programs and Services Office ; Santa Barbara City College ; Transitions Program 0 1764 Employment realities after prison Leyva relates issues he encountered in gaining and retaining employment after release from prison, and the barriers that formerly incarcerated people face in re-entering the workforce. Leyva recounts finding work on campus at Santa Barbara City College and recent legislation that is intended to lessen barriers for formerly incarcerated folks. Employment barriers ; Extended Opportunities, Programs and Services ; Santa Barbara City College ; student success 0 2930 Enabling success for formerly incarcerated students Leyva discusses "just showing up" as a way to model success and assist students in acclimating to an academic environment. Leyva also discusses peers doing work in assisting formerly incarcerated students and/or affecting change, and the characteristics that make for successful re-entry for people getting out of prison. belonging ; Frankie Guzman ; imposter syndrome ; James Binnall ; student success 0 3571 Pathways for formerly incarcerated students in academia Leyva discusses what majors and programs tend to be popular with formerly incarcerated students, what areas Leyva thinks we need more formerly incarcerated people involved in, and what professions they cannot be involved in for legal reasons. college majors ; Education ; employment barriers ; Human Services ; Justice Studies ; Nursing ; Political Science ; Social Work ; Sociology and Criminology ; STEM fields ; student success 0 3898 Employment in prison Leyva discusses the process of employment in prison ; how incarcerated individuals find employment, what that employment looks like, and what the pay is like for incarcerated people. Leyva also discusses what the prison-industrial complex and onshoring movement means for exploitation of labor in prisons. Leyva describes his experience working as a landscaper while in prison. labor exploitation ; landscaping ; legislation ; prison employment ; prison-industrial complex ; Thirteenth Ammendment ; UNICOR 0 4374 Media narratives Leyva discusses how media narratives and election cycles drive public policy and public perceptions of crime and impact non-violent offenders. Leyva also discusses the importance of being critical of our government, the systems in place, and our corporations. carceral system ; corporate criticism ; governmental criticism ; media narratives 0 4707 Childhood in Santa Barbara Leyva discusses his childhood in Santa Barbara and his hometown neighborhood, what his community looked like when he was growing up ; his family, his gathering places, corner stores, Ortega Park murals, barbecue, and childhood rolemodels. Leyva also discusses what his mother did for a living, and his family's work ethic. Manuel Unzueta ; murals ; Oak Park ; Ortega Park ; role models ; Santa Barbara ; work ethic 0 5339 First legal troubles, observational learning, and patriarchy Leyva discusses stealing mopeds and getting caught, observational learning, and substance abuse. Leyva also discusses modeling emotional intelligence and emotional management, sobriety, mindfulness, and the importance of dismantling patriarchy. Leyva tells the story of how he got caught with the stolen mopeds. Honda Spree ; moped theft ; observational learning ; patriarchy 0 5921 Further legal troubles and post-incarceration life Leyva describes his continuing legal troubles and trajectory into the carceral system, crime as a call for help, and how patriarchy doesn't teach skills to be emotionally vulnerable and to be supportive. Leyva also recalls severing a relationship upon coming back to his community, and what defying this meant. Leyva relates this experience to the struggles incarcerated people face in doing the work to heal. Leyva also discusses what home is to him, and how it changes during the healing process post-incarceration. healing ; Juvenile Detention ; patriarchy ; post-incarceration ; robbery ; substance abuse 0 6839 Recidivism, books and education in prison, and mentors in prison Leyva discusses how he won't say he will never be back in prison. He also recalls education in prison, and prison mentors that guided his reading and helped him start the healing process. Leyva also discusses prison subcultures and what literature is dangerous to have in prison. banned books ; critical pedogogy ; mentorship ; My Life Is a Sun Dance ; Pedagogy of the Oppressed ; prison subculture ; recidivism ; The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom 0 7746 Graduate school Leyva discusses coming to North San Diego County for graduate school at California State University San Marcos and the justice studies program in the Sociology Department. Leyva also discusses how our systems and environment drive the choices we make. Antioch University ; California State University San Marcos ; Chris Bickel ; Justice Studies ; rational choice ; Xuan Santos 0 7926 Prison abolition Leyva discusses his feelings on prison abolition, dismantling patriarchy, and feminist thought theory. Leyva describes his wishes for alternatives to incarceration and what a world without patriarchy looks like. feminism ; patriarchy ; prison abolition 0 8369 Project Rebound in the future Leyva discusses how he'd like to see Project Rebound grow, how formerly incarcerated people could have opportunity through it, and how he would like to see CSUSM's Project Rebound become a community hub and place to grow, student or not. community ; Project Rebound 0 8556 Closing thoughts Leyva offers his closing thoughts on the conversation, what his work means to him, and paying homage to his mentors through his work. global incarceration ; paying it back 0 Oral History Martin Leyva was the program coordinator from 2019-2023 for Project Rebound at California State University San Marcos, an on-campus support system for formerly incarcerated students which assists in their efforts to succeed in school and beyond. In his interview Leyva also discusses a similar program - the Transitions Program at Palomar and MiraCosta, colleges, and talks about his experience as a formerly incarcerated person and how his experience re-integrating into society and academia prompted his interest in Project Rebound, dismantling patriarchy, and supporting other members of the formerly incarcerated community.&#13 ; &#13 ; Leyva also discusses his experience with incarceration and post-incarceration life, especially in regards to prison employment and the prison-industrial complex, barriers experienced by prisoners upon release, and the mentorship that Leyva received from members of his fellow incarcerated community. Sean Visintainer: This is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Martin Leyva as part of the California State University San Marcos Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Today is Thursday, October 27th, 2022, and the interview is taking place at the University Library at Cal State San Marcos. Martin, thank you so much for talking with us today. I thought we'd start off by talking about the work that you do, and I was wondering if you can speak to your roles at Cal State as well as Palomar and MiraCosta Colleges. Martin Leyva: Yeah. so currently I'm the program coordinator for Project Rebound here at Cal State San Marcos. Project Rebound started three years ago as a program that supports formerly incarcerated students. I'm also a lecturer within the Sociology [department] Criminology and Justice Studies [program]. And my work primarily is around formerly incarcerated students. It includes Palomar College's Transitions Program that started in 2016, 2017? 2017, and I worked there, also a professor of sociology there, as well as the support person for Transitions students. And same thing at MiraCosta, [unclear] teaches sociology, lecture and sociology there, as well as work with their Transitions students, so formerly incarcerated students. And the cool thing is now they're Rising Scholars, which is the Chancellor's, California Chancellor's Office support for formerly incarcerated folks within the community college. So that's what I do. Visintainer: What does that support look like from the -- you said the Chancellor's Office? Leyva: Yeah, so well, there's two parts. One, Project Rebound also gets support from the Chancellor's office to have programs in the CSU, provides financial support for formerly incarcerated folks. And that's the same thing at the community college with Rising Scholars Network is financial support and professional development for formerly incarcerated students all supported by the Chancellor's office. And that's all new initiatives that just happened in the last couple years. Rising Scholars just happened this past year, funding to community colleges, which is a big help, a huge help. Visintainer: How did Rising Scholars come to be? Leyva: Rising-- I mean Rising Scholars came to be because they saw the need. They saw like a lot of community colleges starting to build up and amplify their services to incarcerated and formally incarcerated students. I love the work. I started doing this work back in 2007 when I came home from prison. Started community college and you know, it's just, I don't know. It wasn't -- there wasn't a lot of support back in 2007 for formerly incarcerated folks and building that program and other programs that got built around existing programs and what we were doing at Santa Barbara City College, last 15 years is just more and more community colleges throughout the state started doing this work. Project rebound, expanded from San Francisco State on to thirteen other campuses. The UC [University of California] system started creating Underground Scholars that supported you know, Underground Scholars first started in Berkeley, and it had started expanding to the UCs. And I think the state of California just saw like, there was a movement and momentum around laws and policies and procedures that supported -- they needed to support formerly incarcerated students, because a lot were coming home and a lot were going to college. And it's been nothing but positivity, you know, I mean, the more they realize, the more degrees we get, the less the likelihood of us going back to prison drops significantly. And they started to fund them. So, it's been so beautiful to watch. Visintainer: Yeah. For sure. What you mentioned the that there's financial support and professional development that's provided and what does that look like? Leyva: So, professional development-- someone like myself who's been to prison, who's got a record it's really hard, especially in areas like this state, right? To get a job with felonies on your record or having an extensive background. But a lot of these programs, they're actually encouraging for institutions to hire people with lived experience. And so it opens, the professional development opens up the doors to people like myself to be able to come work for -- you know, it's interesting because at one point, how much distrust, and I dunno what the word is, distrust. And just like I was property of the state for a long time. &lt ; Affirmative&gt ; [Be]cause property of the county from county probation to the state of California being in prison and on parole, you're property of the state, and then to suddenly go to work for the state, it's kind of an interesting trajectory. But the professional development is they're encouraging institutions to hire formerly incarcerated folks to lead the charge to work with formerly incarcerated students. And I think that, that, I could see myself in admin work now. I could see myself as, you know, someday becoming like a dean of a department or-- and that was something I never thought as a formerly incarcerated individual that I'd ever see myself at that level. And I think that that through Project Rebound, I'm able to see myself as, "Wow, I can actually do this." And that's the part of the professional development, because if I was to leave here, I'm building the skills it takes to continue this work in other academic institutions or nonprofits or, you know what I mean, other places. And I think that there's a lot of skills that's being built working for the university. So-- Visintainer: So it's skill building its opening doors with state government also, I assume with private organizations. Leyva: Yeah. I mean, again, the nonprofit sector. A lot of organizations that are taking on issues around incarceration, around formerly incarcerated, around reentry you know, there are big nonprofits too. And you know, this is the professional development that if I was to leave the university, which I don't foresee me leaving the university anytime soon. You know, I got skills to be able to apply for these jobs that I would've never had. Right? And I'd be taking leadership or taking mentorship from some of our leadership here. I'm really understanding what it is to maybe someday lead an organization, right? And yeah, so the nonprofit sector even, I don't know, I don't ever foresee, like me going back to the prison system to work. But if, you know, job came up and it was, you know, proactive in helping people get out of prison, finding resources, I would take a job back into the, you know well not back into, but go back to the prison system to work to make sure that incarcerated folks had an easier time transitioning from prison to society, right? And so, I think those skills are being developed here. There's a lot of sectors that I can see myself working in. Yeah. Visintainer: So you're a lecturer. You have you have a hand in three different colleges, programs with helping formally incarcerated individuals with their college experiences. So you're very busy. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: What does, what does like a typical day of work look like for you? Leyva: A typical day of work-- it depends on the semester, but it is, it's a typical day is, you know, get up, get ready for work, you take care of your household things, show up to university, check in, do your emails, support students, check in on students. Prepare for meetings, prepare agendas for meetings attend a lot of meetings. &lt ; Laugh&gt ; There's a lot of meetings in the university. And it's in, it's also preparing for class. And I don't prepare for class. You know, that's usually after hours or before work. And then, you know, different schedules, different colleges, different days. You know Monday, Wednesday for instance, I'm at MiraCosta teaching formerly incarcerated folks, sociology intro class. So, you know, the typical lecture here's the information, the grading, the mentoring of students. Tuesday, Thursday, I'm doing the same thing for Palomar College. And then quite honestly, I mean I stay busy, so I go home and I'm prepared a little food, hang out with the dog, and then all of a sudden you're--[be]cause I'm also in a doctoral program right now. So gotta do research, gotta write. It's a very &lt ; laugh&gt ; now that I say that out loud, it's super busy. But you know, I think that I also see the importance all of it, right? I see the opportunity that has been placed in front of me. And I know that there's a good benefit to it all right? I think it's also-- I stay busy as a formerly incarcerated individual. I know a lot of formerly incarcerated individuals are watching me and they see me and they could see them-- They could see their lives changing too. And I think that that's the super important part is that the mentoring that I've gotten, I got to give it away, right? And so that's a typical day is just, you know, Monday through Friday and on weekends, hopefully get a little downtime and hang out a little bit, if not, you know, I'm sitting there researching, writing, and grading and-- Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Wouldn't trade my life for anything. Cause I think I've seen the worst of worst and I don't wanna see that anymore. And I think I can do something about that if I continue to do what I do. So-- Visintainer: So you mentioned that you-- part of your day is supporting students and checking in with students. And I imagine, and I'm making a bit of an assumption here, please, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that there's a significant amount of emotional labor that goes into your work. What, I guess my question is what is the emotional labor that goes into assisting students with their transition to college life? Leyva: Yeah, there's a lot of emotional labor attached to it. [Be]cause it's not just formally incarcerated students here, when I teach here at the university, I'm teaching sociology to undergraduate students from all walks of life. And but when it comes to students in general, I think a lot of students still, especially at the community college, working with them, they struggle a lot with imposter syndrome. A lot of less, you know, they don't have the best self-esteem or self-value. A lot of 'em can't believe that they can actually make it. And you know, you want to support them as much as you can, you know, encourage them. Words of encouragement, sharing, you know, even the tutoring part, which is second nature to me: this is how you write a paper. This is what you should think about with research. Like, that's, that's like second nature to me now. But I also remember what it was like to be a student coming outta prison and going through education, which I'm still doing now. I've built so many skills and other skills I give away. But there's a lot of times where I think the emotional, real emotional labor comes is when students don't succeed. Right. We still have a lot of students that deal with the barriers, you know the getting a job, the family unification, addiction, alcoholism, even students that still deal with, you know, family trauma, neighborhood trauma, like gangs and stuff, right? And you, a lot of times I tell students, you, especially coming from that background, I tell students, you gotta be careful having one foot in your trauma and one foot in education, cause one of them's gonna win. And we try our best to have education heal that trauma, but a lot of times we see students go back to the old ways and that, you know, it's a little emotional taxing. I just shared in a discussion I had today that you can't change the person who's not ready to change, but what you can do is just plant the seeds that help them change, you know, and keep an open door. But there is, I find myself, this is actually a really good question cause I find myself at night when I lay down, my brain will tell me what to do next because I'll think about that student that still struggles and that's emotional. Like I carry that with me. And I think it's also a motivator to be like, "Okay, here's what I can do different. Here's who I can reach out to." This work is not just me. It is a huge community around. And there's a lot of emotional labor with that, you know, And again, just students that you know, I had mentors believe in me before I believed in myself. And there's still areas where I don't believe in myself where I still have people believing in me. And that's the thing, like I always tell students, Don't worry, you might not believe in yourself now, but I believe in you. You can do this. You might be looking through distorted eyes, but I could see the clear picture, you know, and it's a matter of them just trusting you. We also deal with the population that doesn't trust very well. You know what I mean? And so that can be emotionally taxing. It can be. And but again, we show up, we role model. And eventually the more you show up, the more they show up because they, you know, you're role modeling what you want them to do. And that's, that's super important. So. Visintainer: Is, is that the key to building trust or are there other things that you do to build that relationship? I assume there's like a feeling out stage that happens and then there's a trust that's built. I guess my question is how do you go about building trust with somebody? Leyva: I think that the students that gravitate towards me also recognize that there's a big similarity. Whether it's like, cause I, I'm very open with students, [I'm] a student in recovery, been clean and sober nineteen years. I'm a student whose, or an individual who has addressed a lot of healing within myself. And I think that when students know where I've come from and know where I'm at, they still see me for where I come from. So I'm an insider for a lot of them, right? And so there's already trust there. But again, it's also to like and I'll say it straight up, "You might not trust me now, but eventually you will." And it gets to that point where they're like, you know, you're reliable. You know, they're gonna call, they're gonna email. They don't really email. They'll call or text. And I answer and whatever they need, I say, Here, look, call this person. Go here, go that or come see me. I'll go, I'll meet you. Come to the office, or whatever. And students we rely on each other and they also know we're like-minded. You know I'll never tell a student to do something that I haven't done or not doing. I'll never ask a student to step outta their comfort zone without support. Right. And so they know that they're always gonna be supported and and cared for. They're always gonna be seen. And so, yeah, I think it, it takes a little bit to build trust, but it happens. It happens. And this is also, goes back to that question about professional development, is it's important to bring people into these institutions who actually have the lived experience of the people coming in. Visintainer: Hm-hmm. Leyva: Because we're here trying our best to succeed. And we're showing these folks that are just like us, just at a different level, that they too can be here. And they know that. It's like, there's like this insider trust, this insider knowledge, this insider acceptance that, you know I see them, they see me, and we have each other. We're gonna hold each other accountable. I will hold, I will hold students accountable. Right? And this isn't just formally incarcerated students, which is most of my workers around this has to do with students who are in the classroom here at Cal State San Marcos, who are also like Chicano or Chicana. They come from this marginal background. Maybe they're first generation, actually most of them are first generation. And then they see a professor. Cause I don't look like a typical professor, but they recognize my aesthetics, their language, my dress style. They recognize that as very similar to them. And so then you become those mentors for those students. Right. You know, when they come see you at the office, it's like, "Oh yeah, check out this resource, check out that resource." And nobody's really sharing with them that knowledge and introducing them to folks on campus that can help support their success. Right. Or their, their trajectory towards success. And the trust gets built and once it's built, it's there, right. And it's also always being there. And I, and I laugh because it's like, I've had students share with me, like, "Every time I call you answer." I'm like, "Trust me, that's my job. Because I believe in you." Right. And I want to be there for you. And cause a lot of times we deal with students who understand what disappointment and abandonment looks like. And if they come here and they get the same treatment, they're not really gonna be successful. Or, you know, the retention rates for them are gonna drop and we're not gonna hold onto them. And so I think it's important to have someone like me, someone like Dr. Xuan Santos, some of the other professors on this campus who mirror, you know, Rafael Hernandez. A lot of professors on this campus who come from the backgrounds of our students and students can see themselves in our places. And that's what we want. So it all starts with trust. We have to, they have to build trust first. And we just go from there, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Can you talk about a great success that you had at work with either a student or a policy change? I'm just interested, like, what does a really great day at work look like and feel like? Leyva: What's a really great day at work look like? Actually quite a few and, you know, I'll share one. So I had a student, it was my first year actually teaching here. It was I felt like I'd been teaching a really long time, but after I got my master's degree here, and I started, like the following semester, I had a class and a student in this class who was very quiet, very reserved. And he was just kind of like, came out, came up with me after class. He's like, "I've never seen a professor like you." And then he started to share about him, his upbringing and his family. And right away I gravitated towards like, what this student was sharing and how he can be successful. And it was a little mentor/mentee relationship built. And a great day here is when you get the email says, I decided to go to grad school. I want to apply for this program. Can you help me? And I'm like, yes! And we're, I'm writing a letter for him for grad school. And then he gets, he sends me another letter. I got into grad school. And just that last semester, spring, spring quarter last year, he graduated with a master's degree in social work. Visintainer: Awesome. Leyva: Got a student in my office right now who formally incarcerated. He spent twenty-nine years in prison, came out an older gentleman. I met him when he first came out and he started Palomar to be able to help him. He got two associates degrees, came here, got his bachelor's degree, and he just started his first year of graduate school, right. And it's, I have, there's, so I'm truly-- I feel blessed because I have like, so many little stories. And I say little because they're gonna continue to grow, because these individuals are also gonna guide the next generation of students coming in. That helps. I mean that's success to me. And then just being part of, like, when I first started Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College, to watch that program kind of grow into this big thing that policy changes, where finally, politicians are saying we need to fund programs and start programs and to see programs. Community college goes into schools-- community college goes into jails and prisons to teach associates degrees, and to me, success is like knowing that I played a small part in that. Right. And to be able to be an advocate and a voice for people ending life without the possibly of parole for minors who went to prison and playing a small part in that. Now you ask that question, I'm like, 'cause I never really think about it. I just do the work. Yeah. I just kinda show up and, and everything about, you know, like, what's, what's success to you? I'm like, you know, just show up to work. But to realize now when you say that, [unclear] had even just a small part of all these beautiful things. And as my mentor, Dr. Chris Bickel, he says, he's like, "Man, the work just began for you." Right. Yeah, I never really even think about it. Just kinda show up to do work. &lt ; laughs&gt ; And, yeah, I think that's every day too. You get students show up in the office and they get to share, like, "I got an A on this test, thank you!" And I'm like, "Don't thank me. I didn't do no-- I didn't do the study and I didn't do, I just gave you a couple encouraging words and you showed up, you took the test. It's not me, it's you, right?" And I think that you know, I get at least one piece of good news every day and that's a good thing. So, yeah. Never even thought about that, man. Thanks. Visintainer: &lt ; Laughs&gt ; Well, you're welcome. Thank you for sharing. Let's see. So, you started the Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College. Can you talk a little bit about how the Transitions Program there came to be? Leyva: Yeah, so I got released from prison in 2007. And I didn't know what I wanted to do. All I knew was I didn't wanna back to prison. Education was not really on my mind. Change was though, right? Just not going back to jail. Not going back to prison. Not using drugs, not using alcohol, not going back to the neighborhood. I knew that that was what I didn't want. But I lost-- because of my record, I lost three jobs in three months. And my niece just had this idea, "Why don't you go to school?" And I went to the, I went to Santa Barbara City College. I was scared. It was the first time I'd really ever felt like I was-- you know I was scared to be there. I didn't feel like I fit in. I didn't feel like I belonged there. I didn't fit in [unclear] scared. My niece was the one who really practically held my hand in my first semester. And I always tell folks: that transition started out of an act of fear because I was scared to be there. I didn't feel like I fit in. And every time I went to the parole office, I was telling another formerly incarcerated individual. Back then, we were still using the word convict, right. And I'd be like, "Hey, you should come up and check out school." Selfishly, I wanted him there. Right. And I also saw two individuals I'd always see at the parole office. I saw 'em on campus. And I did really quickly, I recognized I didn't have the ability to ask for help. I didn't have the ability to raise my hand. I read and I was engaged in here, but I wasn't vocal about what I was learning. And these two individuals were Black. They're Black men. And in prison we walk around really fine racial lines. Right. These unwritten rules around race. And so, I at the time I was kind of scared to approach them because of race, but I was still institutionalized. And then really quickly, I said, I want to be here and I know they want to be here. And so I approached them, Tyrone and Malik and I introduced myself to them. We just got to talking about school, classes. Then they also felt the exact same things I was feeling. And next thing you know, we started a little support group. Me, Malik, Tyrone, and then there was a woman that joined and another person that joined another person-- and then we just started this transitions support group that turned into the school EOPS Director at the time, Marsha Wright, I said, "Hey, we need a little spot to meet." And she's like, "Yeah, I'm gonna get you a room so you can continue the support group." And that happened so quickly. The summer right after that, we had our very first cohort model of education for formerly incarcerated individuals. And I think the first cohort we had like fourteen formerly incarcerated students. Second, we had like twenty-two, then we had twenty-five, and we had twenty-five every year after that up until Covid, because Covid shut down a lot of the programs. But, you know, the Transitions Program was born and you know, addressing access to college, recruiting resources, you know learning disabilities, like a lot of the departments got involved because they saw a big need. And there this was the small community of Santa Barbara. We have students coming from Ventura, from San Louis Obispo to do the program. And so I think that that sparked the conversation. You know, campuses should address that. It's been such a pleasure and honor to be a part of that. Cause when I moved out here in 2016 to come to school, Cal State San Marcos, that first year we took it to MiraCosta and MiraCosta ran with it for one year. Second year I was here. Palomar. We had approached Palomar. Palomar started their Transition Program, which still both, now both campuses have one. And they're doing such amazing work. Right. And yeah, like I said, you know, it sparked a good movement. It's an honor to be fifteen years removed. I would say I'm fifteen years removed from prison, but I'm fifteen years born in education. Right. And that feels good to be part of that work. Visintainer: Yeah. I have so many follow up questions from what you just said. I'm gonna try and frame 'em in kind of a logical order. Okay. So you, you mentioned that you tried three jobs after getting out of prison. And did you say you were let go from 'em? Yeah. what were the jobs? Leyva: My first job was doing construction. My neighbor, I paroled back to my sister's house and the neighbor was, you know, essentially a good guy. His name's Joe. He was doing construction at the time. He said, I can get you a job at this construction company. And I was excited to work. Two things happened with that job. One, it was a big commercial industrial construction company they built, wasn't like building houses. We were building huge buildings. They ran a background check and it took about, you know, twenty days to then to come back. And they came back and this says, it's a lot of liability here. You just got out of prison and so we can't get you the job. The other thing was my parole officer. I was in Santa Barbara County and literally the job site was about three miles outside Ventura County. So, because I left Santa Barbara County into Ventura County, he's like, "You can't have that job." I'm like, "It's a job though, right?" And so not only did the construction company not continue employing me because there was a lot of liability, parole officer said, "You can't leave the county." Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: So I lost that job. So then my sister introduced me to temporary work. Right. A temp agency. And I got a job with, great job with, Powell-Peralta working, making skateboards. I thought that was a great job-- Visintainer: Cool! Leyva: Loved the skate culture. Right. And it was really cool designs and was learning how to make boards and the temp agency, I was working there. I, you know and after thirty days of working there they said, "Oh, we want to hire you're a good worker. You show up, you do your job. And you're--" They really liked me. And, to go from temp agency to permanent employment, they ran a background check and they also said, "You know, you're just too fresh out. You just gotten out a couple months," or not even a month maybe a month and a week, month and two weeks or two months, whatever. So then they didn't hire me on. And then I went to go work for janitorial, same temp agency. I was doing janitorial, cleaning buildings at night, nobody in sight, just me and you know, cleaning supplies. And after the same thing, after thirty days, they said, "We really like your work. You're good. Let's hire you on." And then background check. And so it was, it deflated me pretty quick. Like, it was just exhausting. I just, I just wanted to do well. I wanted to do good and I wanted to make some money for my kids and get back on track, whatever that meant. And that's why when my niece introduced me to school, should I go to school and then I think when I attended, started Santa Barbara City College, my parole officer said, "Well, I'm glad you're in school, but that's not a job." Right. FAFSA's not money. And I was like, It's kind of money &lt ; laughs&gt ; , right? But he's like, "No, you need a job." And then fairly quickly, I remember talking to my EOP counselor, EOPS counselor and I said, "I need a job." And she's just like, "Oh, this this thing called federal work study. You should try to get a job on campus." And I was like, "What's that?" So I explored it. Next thing you know, I'm working for English as a Second Language Department and I was doing administrative assistant work. And I'm like, "How am I do--? I don't even know what I'm doing!" But they gave me an opportunity. City College said, you know, you don't have certain crimes, so we're just gonna hire you. And I was like &lt ; surprised gesture&gt ; "Hmm." You know, next thing I know I'm working in, and I've been working in education since. An interesting thing is, same thing that happened to me back in 2007, trying to get a job is the same thing happening to people now. And this is why, again, this work is so important. We address those issues. We hire students on campuses. So. Visintainer: And you said the construction company said that the insurance liability was too much. And so when formerly incarcerated individuals are coming back and they're getting jobs and they're going through these background checks, I assume that's just a huge barrier. And things like insurance liability come up. How do you address that with students that you're mentoring and how do folks get over that barrier? Leyva: Yeah. Well now, I mean, this is the other thing about doing this work for so long: policy change has happened. Now we have the Fair Chance Act where you give me a job application and it says, "Have you been convicted of a felony?" You don't actually-- you don't have to mark anything down anymore. This allows for your application, at least to maybe go through the second process of an interview. They cannot run a background check on you until they hire you. So I always tell students, "You know what?" 'Cause some students just don't know, some formerly incarcerated folks just don't know. They see that box and they just don't even-- why is that box still on the application? I don't know. It should be removed from all applications, especially in the state of California. But I tell them, "If you see that box, don't even mark it. Put in all your skills, send me your resume, let's hook up your resume." Even if somebody doesn't have any real work experience for, you know maybe there's a five-year gap because they've been in prison, there's still skills being built, whether you worked in laundry, worked in the kitchen, did landscaping, did some type of machine shop, there's skills that are being built and we can put that in your resume. And so working with students, and the hard part is working with formerly incarcerated folks, we don't come in contact with all formerly incarcerated folks. So there's still a large portion, a large population of formerly incarcerated individuals who don't get this mentorship. But the ones that do, you know, let's work on your communication. Let's work on interview skills, let's work on all this stuff so that when they're ready to go for that job, they have a little bit of a leg up. Right. And you know, the Fair Chance Act has really given a lot of formerly incarcerated folks the opportunity to get work. Now, is it a livable wage? Probably not, but it's something, right? It's a starting point. But it's still an uphill battle. Cause we have a student currently in Project Rebound right now who is just having a hard time trying to find a job with a decent wage and attend school full time. And thinking about, you know, doing something different like truck driving school until you can save some money. There's still a lot of barriers. And as much mentorship and guidance we can give, there's still certain jobs that say, "Yeah, we wanna hire 'em." And then as soon as they find that there is a criminal background, you know, just like pull the blanket out or pull the carpet out from underneath you and you feel like you're stage one again. Right. And so it's hard. That's the other-- that's the emotional labor that we were talking about earlier. It's like, you know, I feel like I've reached a place in my career where I feel okay, but it's hard to be here knowing that there's so many other folks that still don't feel that yet. And it's both emotionally taxing, but also I feel grateful too because it's like, I understand that I've been in those shoes before and it's like, just keep showing up for them and they'll be okay. And telling them, show for yourself. You know, show for yourself. So, Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. I have a question, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure exactly. I'm gonna let it gestate as we continue talking. Cause I'm not entirely sure what I want to ask, if that makes sense. There's something there if that makes sense. Leyva: Yeah. It makes total sense to me. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Okay. So let's see. So let's circle back then to the Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College. And we've talked a little bit about how that came to be. That was-- it was really interesting. And I guess something that you mentioned there was a cohort that started and it was a smaller cohort, and then it grew as the years go on. And I was curious about how that communication starts. When before you have a program and you know that there are formerly incarcerated students on your campus, how do you get the word out about a program to help them? Leyva: It was really grassroots. So I'll start from the very-- like me and Tyrone, Malik, Christina, the number of folks in the very beginning, we would sit at this little bench on campus, right? And we would meet each other there in the morning. We'd talk about school, talk about tutoring, talk about resources. We'd support each other. But when you see a group of formerly incarcerated people or people that &lt ; airquote gesture&gt ; look formally incarcerated, the cops are also looking, right? You can see campus security, like, you know, what's this group of people doing here? Right? And I've been asked too, when the early days by campus security or can I help you? Are you a student here? I'm like, Yeah, I'm a student here. And they're like, "Can I see your ID?" And I'm like, at the time I'm like, I'm on parole. I'm like, "Yes, you can see my ID." Technically they had no right to do that right. I didn't know that. So I knew that there was like this surveillance aspect that was happening to us. And so that's why I approached the school, not to start a program, but to, "Hey, can you give us a safe place to meet?" Here's this group of people. We're all formerly incarcerated, We're all here. And it was like, yeah. So that's, that's that entry to the, to the dialogue as we're here and we need a safe place. And I said, you know, the campus security is always like looking at us or questioning one of us when we're coming into the college. And so the people that I was talking to were like, "Oh, that's not right. They shouldn't do that." Right. And they help us help ourselves by saying, If they ask you that, you don't have to answer any questions. You can actually call me or whatever. Right. They were really supportive. But then you realize when you start asking more and more formally incarcerated people to come to school, that something needs to happen. And the good thing is, is that the school, especially EOPS at that time at Santa Barbara City College, still to this day, their goal is to help marginal students their whole, And they saw the need really quickly, and they said, "You think you can get a program started?" And I was like, I actually know I can get a program started, but what is a program? Right? And they asked me like, "What do you think a program would look like?" I said, "We get a whole classroom for formerly incarcerated folks." I don't even know what you would teach, but we could all learn together and we can support each other and we can build I don't even know if I knew what the definition of cohort was before that. And then I was told, "You think you can get a cohort going?" And I just said, I didn't know what it was. I was like, "Sure. What is it?" You know what I mean? But, just-- they were really supportive. And then next thing you know, they're talking funding, they're talking, you know, "Oh, we'd like to hire you as a peer advisor to run this program and do this stuff." And I was, I was just like, "Yes." Because it was a job. It was being around the people that made me comfortable, which were four other formerly incarcerated folks. I felt good about what I was doing and I was also doing drug and alcohol treatment or going to school for drug and alcohol treatment at the time so everything we were talking about in class was fitting into this model that was being built. Right. And so I had my teachers, my professors in those classes actually telling me about group process and all this other stuff. It just felt like everything was organic at that moment. And that's how the conversation started. And that's you know, I think me and Malik and Tyrone, we just ran with it, you know, and it was yeah. And that's how the conversation happened. And that's also goes back to professional development because I feel like when they start talking about funding and, you know, writing up a budget and all this stuff, I was like, I have no idea what this means. And here I am just like watching these EOPS counselors and these program coordinators talk about this stuff, and I'm watching them do the work, and I'm like, "Oh, I want to learn this." It's not something-- not a skill I've ever had or been around. Again, I didn't know it would take me to this place, but I knew that there was some skills being built there. Right. And I think I answered your question. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Yeah. What is what is EOPS? Leyva: I always get this wrong. Extended Opportunities, Programs and Services. So it's like EOP here, and here it has a different definition, but it's pretty much like EOPS is the program that yeah-- So there's like single mothers, there's you know, marginal students that need extra support. Visintainer: Mmm-hmm Leyva: They're gonna provide the, the support, the resources, the mentorship, the guidance, the tutoring. We have tutoring labs in this department. And our own academic counselors in there too. We were just like, Here's your head plan. And IGETC [Intersegmental General Education Transfer Curriculum ; course that California community college students can complete to satisfy general education requirements] and all that other stuff that goes along with, you know, students that are getting ready to transfer. And Transitions fell into the lap of Noel Gomez in the early, his name was Noel Gomez. And we pretty much formulated the program together. He was working at administration. We had the students do the work. We started collaborating. He still runs to this day. He runs the Transitions Program. And he is the EOPS director now too, or interim director, I think. Visintainer: Okay. Leyva: So he stayed in the same field doing the same work. And it's just it's cool to still have those ties, those connections and still watching him do such beautiful work and be a mentor to me, you know, So. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: So you mentioned that the college gave you a meeting space. And then-- and then you get your first kind of cohort together. What was the-- can you talk about the first meeting that you had? Leyva: With the school or with the students? Visintainer: With the students? Leyva: &lt ; laughs&gt ; Yeah. 'Cause that was interesting because they said, "You can start your own program, or you can start this program. Can you get students?" And I said, "Yes." The first meeting was really interesting because we had a small group of students who had already started community college who were helping. But I remember just like they're like, "Just make a flyer." And I had no idea I can make a really fancy flyer now. Back then I said I think I even said "Transitions Program." Program-- ex-convicts I think was written on the flyers. Very unethical or very, like, these are not the language we're using anymore. But I had the, the email and the phone number to call. I remember making-- so funny because I made a Word document and I put the information on the top and then a copy and paste and put it below and then printed 'em out and then cut 'em in half. Like this, this is like my ideal of making flyers, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But I remember, like my first conversation with students or potential students is every time I was at the parole office, I'd show up like, "Hey man, you should try to go to school where, you know, we got this program going off in school." Most people were like, uninterested or like, no, I remember even seeing one guy, he's like, "Oh, yeah, I'll check it out." And then he crumbled it up and threw it away. Right. But I'd show up to the courthouse and I'd see folks walking out of the court and I'd be like, you know, "Hey, you should try coming to school, try going to school." I'd put flyers in the sober living homes, or I'd go to sober living homes and hand out flyers or and so it was, it was that conversation. It wasn't just me. It was me and Malik and Tyrone. And even in our neighborhoods where we'd know people who were our friends that are formerly incarcerated, it'd be like, "Hey, you should try home to school." And we already knew that they were kind of tired of the old lifestyle too so they were like, "Yeah, I'll try it out." And it just quickly-- that was the first meetings. That was the first conversations about going to school. And I also knew that when they did come up to school, that I would have to show 'em, this is where the-- this is how you feel like application. This is where you do your FAFSA [Free Application for Federal Aid]. This is, you know, this is a financial aid, academic counseling or academic advising or, everything my niece showed me, I showed them. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And everything I wanted to know, I was asking EOPS counselors and director, you know, "What do I do if a student asked about a job?" And they're like, "Oh, go to Human Resources. See what jobs are available on campus, make sure they have federal work study." So I learned it all pretty quickly. And that was the conversations with students. Cause I'm like, "Look, we can you get a job up here, you can do, you can get food up here." They were, you know, there's you know, there's-- I have a learning disability, so I was a part of the DSS, the Disabled Students Program. And I was like, "Look, if you got learning disabilities," and you know trying to break that stigma too right away. Right. So it's all about gathering resources. And every time I've met with a group of students, potential students, or individually, it was like all this information that I was giving 'em. Right. So it was quickly getting the buy in, but I also felt really good about what I was doing. Yeah. You know, and that it felt good to be like, "Yeah, okay, I'll do it. I'll sign up." And then you just meet 'em at the campus and you're filling out the application. Just at that time, it was just one finger typing too. Cause I didn't know how to type either, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But I, you know, I just, it just felt good. And they did, there was a lot of, still to this day, people come into college and this community college, or even come to the university, there's that imposter syndrome. "I can't do it." And it's just like, "Yes you can. Yes you can." And you know, it's still, yeah. That was the first conversation. And it's-- and it feels like it still happens to this day. Right. Even though we got somewhat of a formula, we have great people, great resources. It feels like those first conversations happen all the time. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And which even though a lot of things have changed, the individual self hasn't. "I don't believe in myself, I can't do it." And it's like, "Yes, you can. Yes you can." It feels like 2007 and 2022, those conversations are still the same. Right. So Yeah. It's conversations happen on a regular, so. Visintainer: You've talked to a couple times about Imposter Syndrome and that's like, so rampant in academia. Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: And then you throw students that are maybe not familiar with an academic environment into the mix, and you add all these barriers, these like bureaucratic and logistical barriers, like university campuses are not necessarily easy places to navigate. Especially for folks that aren't familiar with them. So how did you go about addressing and facilitating students to be successful? Navigating the bureaucracy? Leyva: You just show up &lt ; laughs&gt ; , you know what I mean? You just show up. You don't wanna show up or you feel you're gonna get push back or you feel like you don't belong. I mean, there's so many feelings even now. I mean, I still deal with that now and my role in administration and I love this campus because it's been very supportive of the programs, of me, of our students. It's a great community. Even Palomar, MiraCosta is very open. But you just show up. You just, you just show up. And I think for me, and I think also too, for a lot of our students, we know it's waiting for us if we don't show up, you know. We know what the other side of this looks like. The gangs, the drugs, the alcohol, the jails, the prisons. And that's not for all, all of us, right? There's not drugs and alcohol with everybody. But we understand what's on the other side. If we're not doing this, what else do we have? Right? And so we just show up and it feels good to actually do this work. And when that imposter syndrome or you know, that belief in self isn't there, or our value is low, self-esteem is low, we still just show up. You know, we show up. And I, you know, I think I've seen people show up and I'm like, "God, I have to do that." Cause I get in my own head. And I know that same thing when I show up, other people show up and it's like we're there. Right. You just show up and the bureaucracy is the bureaucracy, it's gonna be there. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: When I'm getting pushback, not the funding or, "You can't do that program," or you can't, you know, it's like I always tell folks we've heard no so many times their life is here. No. Again, it's not gonna hurt us, but we're still gonna show up, you know? And I think that we've had a lot of doors closed our faces or a lot of denials for jobs or resources. And it happens with formerly incarcerated folks it happens and it's gonna, it's gonna happen even more, but we're still gonna show up. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And we're still gonna show that we can do the work. We're gonna do the work. And statistically thinking or talking that's like all incarcerated people in the United States, 95% of people are coming home someday. And that always is one of those driving things to say, like, coming home to what? Let's create something so that when they do come home, there's resources in the community. There's resources in academia, there's resources that're gonna help their mental health, their PTSD [Post Traumatic Stress Disorder], their you know, and we have to, we have to build those really soft landings for folks to come home and have a fighting chance to make it in society. You know? And I think that we live within a system that still, even though we see a lot of positivity and we're going in the right direction, there's still a lot of barriers. There's still a lot of doubt. There's still an industrial complex in the prison that relies on our labor, relies on our, the exploitation of who we are. There's still laws and policies and politicians that say, "Well, we can create these laws and policies to continue funneling people into the prison system." It still exists. And it's-- I mean, we still have the thirteenth Amendment &lt ; laughs&gt ; , you know, we're still combating just the thirteenth amendment alone, let alone all these local laws and policies that just flood our jails and prisons. We just show up. We continue to do the work, and we continue to role model. We continue to, to, you know, I love watching people like you know, Frankie Guzman up in Oakland who's you know, a formerly incarcerated lawyer who's a policy lawyer, you know James Binnall from Long Beach, he's a professor, Dr. James Binnall, who-- he's a formerly incarcerated lawyer, he did his LSATs [Law School Admission Test] in prison, and now he's a professor and he does a lot of policy work. And it's like folks like that ; they're inspiring. You know what I mean? They're inspiring. It's like, you know, we-- again, they show up. I show up, they're motivation for me. And I can just rattle off a bunch of names of people who are formerly incarcerated who're serious allies for this population. And they want to, they want to do, they wanna do great work. Or they do great work. And it's just like that, that encourages me to continue doing the best work I can. Visintainer: Yeah. It sounds like tenacity then is a really big ingredient to success? Leyva: Yes. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some other characteristics or expand upon that if you want, but I was just curious, like, what are the characteristics that you feel are really important to build, uh, for folks to build when they're getting out of prison? Leyva: I always tell folks this: I say, "Greatest education that you have is your own lived experience." Right. That we use every time we've had a door shut in our face, every time we've been denied something, every time we've been at the lowest place in our life. Like those, that's the motivator to create change. That right there should be single-handedly the thing we use to create change. So you know, our strength is just who we are. You know, I've seen unfortunate-- some of the-- California Department of Corrections is a hard place to live. Yeah. You know, there's everything from drugs and alcohol and violence and assault and denial of medical, mental health services, medical services, it's hard. And it's like that right there though is probably one of the greatest teachers we have that builds our character up to be like, "I don't wanna take no for an answer. No, I'm here. I'm gonna do something else." Right. And I always tell folks, it gives us a reason to fight, a reason to &lt ; unintelligible&gt ; . And obviously not talking physically, but mentally, emotionally. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Politics and, you know, getting involved with like, you know, they should build us up to this place where we feel empowered to create change. We already have it. We've already been to the lowest places that society can send us. Right. And I think that we can only go up from here if we stop colluding with the system that's there. Right. We have to stop colluding with it. Visintainer: Yeah. What, what do you mean by that? Colluding with the system? Leyva: You know, we bump up against it. You know, it's just same thing if you-- when an individual, and I see this happen, and it's disheartening when an individual loses a job or can't get a job and he or she knows that, you know, the informal economy exists, like selling drugs or, you know, hustling for what they need. I respect that. You gotta do what you have to do as a person, as a family person. But we get denied jobs, get denied access to certain resources, and then our only, we can resort back to some drug sales or some criminal activity. We're colluding with them. We're actually saying, "Well you know, you're gonna call me bad or create this level where I can't succeed. I'm gonna do what I have to do." And we go back to colluding with the system that send us to jail or prison. Stick with it. Stay within the long haul. We're always gonna get what we want. But, and the more we collude with the system, the more we actually allow the system to say, "This is why we need laws and policies. This is why crime rates are the way they are. This is--" And so it's like it's like we have to just really try our best to not collude with that system but change that system. And as insiders, we can change the prison system. We can change the laws around gang injunctions, mandatory minimums, three strikes laws, and all these things that are created through laws and policies. Why can't we become the politicians to change that? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Formerly incarcerated people can be politicians. You know, we can actually be [on] school boards, city councils, county supervisors, all the way to the state level, all the way to the federal level. We can be politicians and instead of colluding with this criminality as they used the word, you know, let's just bump up against the system and change the system. Make it work for all people. So it's fair and just and equitable. And that's what we push. That's what I push, you know? And, you know, and I'm not alone. There's a lot of beautiful people doing great work out there. Men and women, gay, straight, able, disabled. There's a lot of formerly incarcerated people who are doing this work that, you know, we just, yeah. We just put our best foot forward and keep walking. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: I was curious if there was any particular like majors or disciplines that students that you mentor through either Transitions or Project Rebound here if they tend to gravitate towards any specific majors, disciplines in academia? Leyva: Yeah. The biggest one we see across the state, not just here at Cal State San Marcos, across the state, is usually sociology and criminology, right? Because we want to, we come from that. We know that so well and we do that. But also like human services, like counselors, drug and alcohol treatment counselors MSWs [Master's of Social Work], because we want to, we also wanna help, right? We're very empathetic. Some of the majors they don't gravitate to, which I'm actually excited about at Cal State San Marcos, it's usually like STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math] fields. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: We do have four students here at Cal State San Marcos that are in STEM, which is probably the most, because we don't gravitate to it. We gravitate towards how can we create change. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So sociology, criminology, justice studies, MSW, counseling. Those are the main fields. You know, some psychology 'cause you do-- we're helpers. We want formerly incarcerated folks want to help out another individual. My goal is to get people into political science and other fields to be like, "Let's go to Washington." You know what I mean? Let's get in those halls. Yeah. And you can do that with sociology and stuff. But those are the main, those are the big disciplines or the big majors that people go into. And that was mine, bachelor's degree in psychology. My master's degree in sociology. And my doctorate will be in education. And that's all because I want to create, understand these systems so well that I could create the change within 'em, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And that's formerly incarcerated folks. I got a group of twenty-two formerly incarcerated students at MiraCosta right now. And all of 'em say same thing. I want to help people. So I wanna do sociology. I wanna become a counselor, I wanna do this, I wanna do that. And I'm like, "Where's my politicians at though?" You know what I mean? Where's my &lt ; laughs&gt ; ? Where's my--'cause you know, there's also, they understand that, you know, some of 'em say they want to be nurses, but there's no access to nursing if you're formally incarcerated. There's a lot of fields that uh-- actually not a whole lot. Nursing is one. Education is another. 'Cause a lot of times if you're formally incarcerated, you can't go back in the high schools to teach, can't get your credentials if you're formerly incarcerated, which I think should change. I think we would make great teachers, especially of high school students. Right. Visintainer: Yeah. I think there would be real value in, in having people who are formerly incarcerated in classrooms. Leyva: Yeah. And we see that too, because when I was in Santa Barbara, I was working in the high schools teaching social and emotional intelligence and social justice work through a non-profit. And the high schools over there saw my value. Out here, we could take Project Rebound students and other students we work in, you know, continuation high schools and court, juvenile court community schools, and those schools sees the value of formerly incarcerated students coming into their school, doing the mentorship, doing all that stuff. And there is a lot of value in it, you know, and not just, I mean, you know, we gravitate towards drug and alcohol treatment or counseling because we understand those folks really well. We also understand marginal high school students and middle school students, they say, "Let us in here" because we can actually really change the outcome for a lot of the students, especially our Black and Brown students that get targeted in other places other than the schools ; their communities, even their homes. We can actually-- I feel like we can really do a lot of work in that area, but until the policies around hiring formerly incarcerated folks to work in high schools, to work as teachers, to work as nurses, caretakers-- The other thing too is we're doing that work in prison. Nurses in prison exist, but some of the main caretakers-- people doing like CNA [Certified Nursing Assistant] work or LVN [Licensed Practical Nurse] work, they're inmates. They're, I don't really want to use the word inmates anymore. They're incarcerated folks doing that type of work. They're caretaking for elders, they're caretaking for people with terminal illness. They're doing dentistry work. They're being, you know, incarcerated folks are already doing that work. We, they allow us to do it there, but as soon as we step out of the prison, "Oh, you're not allowed to do that work anymore." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and it's like, we can benefit. We have a big benefit to society if you allow us to do that work. Right. Just like incarcerated firefighters, they're out here fighting some of the biggest fires. We can do it, we can do it while we're in prison, but we come out and we can't join a fire station. And the laws, that's the other thing too. That's another part of where laws have changed. Now formerly incarcerated firefighters can get a job doing forestry fighting now. And that's, you know our next step is let us in the firehouses in the cities, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So small policy changes, small changes are happening. Visintainer: And how does employment in prison happen? Leyva: Ah, that's a good question. You know, you go to prison and there's a couple ways. One if you're an incarcerated folk like I was, I had to serve eighty-five percent of my sentence. So a lot of resources for somebody already serving that much time. You kind of get put on the back burner. There's also a population of incarcerated folks that go and do, they have to do fifty percent of the time. So they get sentenced to ten years. They only do five. They have to earn that five years. So they put 'em to work right away. And then also if you're, if you're lucky enough to just be like, I got certain skills. 'Cause they do, they run your resume. "What kind of work have you done? What kind of skills do you have?" And they'll place you if there's jobs available, right? So it all really depends what skills you have, how much time you have. So there's a few defining things that get work. But you know, when you go to prison and you get a job, I was a landscaper in prison and it was a job I landed just because somebody was going home and they made a recommendation saying, "Hey Martin should do this job," right? So they hired me right away and it was-- The pay scale. I think the pay scale recently changed. So they're hiring certain people with certain jobs that actually is a decent wage. But I was making thirteen cents an hour in prison. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And because they had restitution, they were taking fifty-five percent of my thirteen cents to pay back restitution. And so at the end of a month, you get paid once a month. maybe able to buy maybe a jar coffee, &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. Jar of coffee, a couple soups and not a whole lot coming from there, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So and there's still a lot of prisons that are still paying their people cause they're still paying folks. Pennies, pennies on the dollar, you know. Visintainer: And is that based out of like some sort of private company using labor? Leyva: Um. Visintainer: Why is there, uh, why is there such a huge disparity between the wages that somebody's being paid when they're incarcerated and somebody that's not incarcerated doing the same work? Leyva: It's just the exploitation of labor, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Depending on what you're doing inside prison, what prison, what industry is contracted with the prison because certain, you know, IBM and Levi jeans and, you know, no longer Victoria's Secret, but there's a lot of companies that contract with the prison industry for cheap labor. Right? So it just depends on those contracts. And that's the rise of mass incarceration though, right? You can actually have companies and corporations that on Wall Street, stock market, made in America. You know, you be careful. Chevron and Exxon, they all have a lot of products made in prison. There're so many companies that use prison labor cause it's cheap and they can say that their product is being made in the USA right? And it sucks. Even like the federal prison system for instance, they have a corporation called UNICOR [Federal Prison Industries] and they make all like military flak jackets and military gear. And yes, they're made in the USA but they're made by cheap labor, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And again, given that we're doing the labor in prison, we're getting the skills, much needed skills, but it doesn't equate to jobs as soon as we leave prison. And I think that's where, you know, I'm glad to be working while I'm in prison, keeping our minds busy staying active, which is good. But you know, you've got the private prison industry, it's, you know, you got an entire industry that's on Wall Street. People can actually put money in the stock market and just relies on the exploitation of people. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's kind of a gross system that we have &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and I've seen the labor, you know, everything from making our license plates to maybe a lot of this furniture that's actually here was built in prison. Our shoes, our clothing items, everything that we have is actually built in prison. So it's like there's an entire industry that relies on our labor, you know? There's another thing: a lot of people don't really understand that, you know? They think that jobs went overseas. Yes. Jobs went over overseas for sure, but jobs also went into the prison system. Jobs that could have been for a lot of people. So we can't blame fully overseas. We blame our prison system and the allowance of written contracts to have this labor be done there. You know? And a lot of people are just, they don't-- They're just not well informed about what's really going on. Right. And so yeah. One, I'm glad that was working 'cause I would drive myself nuts if I wasn't. But it's also like, you know, you're completely exploiting, you know, my labor. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. When you were a landscaper, excuse me. So you were landscaping like outside of the prison? Leyva: No, it was on the inside. It was on the inside, Yeah. And, you know, it was sure around some of the offices, never was allowed off the grounds in the prison system. But the aesthetics of the prison was important for the face. Right. It has to look good on the outside. The inside was really quite run down, but the outside, the grass was cut nicely. The hedges were trimmed, the flowers were growing on the outside. And that's what you're doing. And trust me, I really enjoyed it 'cause I like being in the sun. I love gardening. I love plants. I love the work. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But, you know, yeah, it was-- I was happy to do the work. I wasn't, you know, especially then I was like, "Oh, I'm cool with this job. I like these thirteen cents an hour," because I was misinformed. I was uneducated. Soon as I came home, and I knew that there was like some exploitation happening, [unclear] understand it, you know, on the outside I'd be getting paid ten dollars an hour, fifteen dollars an hour, whatever I was doing on the outside. And in here it sucks to get thirteen cents an hour or whatever. But now that I'm in academe, I'm educated, I understand these, how the system allows for this to happen with the thirteenth amendment and all these laws and policies and how I really honestly feel like even in education, how I was targeted as a Brown male, it all makes sense to me when I see the rise of the prison system, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: At one point, crime rate, crime rates are kind of going up right now, but for the longest time, crime rates were dropping. Were on a steady decline, but our prison system kept growing. And it took education for me to really understand what is happening with laws and policy, what is happening with contracts in the prison system, what is happening with our politicians who are, you know, law and order issue. You know, "We need to get crime under control!" I'm like, crime rates are dropping though. Why is our prison population 2.3 million people in the United States if crime rates are dropping now, Covid and everything else. Yeah. Crime rates are, are rising, but they're not at a dangerous level. Right. Where our prison system stays at the same amount of people. You know, we can, I love research &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: I love research, right? Visintainer: Yeah. And I don't know if this is necessarily a question, but then there's also, you know, I've been seeing like people talking about New York, the crime rates are not actually rising, but there's this narrative that the crime rates in the city are rising. So you have like Adams, the mayor, you know, running on this like tough on crime cop platform and getting elected. And so, I don't know, I don't know what my question is, but I think there's something there too with, with media narratives being-- Leyva: Oh, yeah. I mean that's huge for us. And it's also the time of the year too, right? With, with elections coming up, obviously gonna be this focus on crime and crime in America and all these things. And they're gonna, it's easy for politicians and media to be like, "Well, this crime happened in Chicago, this crime happened in New York, and they could be like all people, right?" It's like, no, that was an incident. Right? And it's gonna happen at this time of the year during elections, midterm elections presidential elections. It's gonna, you're gonna hear about how horrible we are, right? And as soon as the elections stop, you'll go, we'll go focus on something else, Right? Monkey Pox or something else, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's always gonna be something to focus on. But right now, crime rates are the thing because of this media. And that's the interesting thing is how we always, I always call this the sandwich effect, right? When you take media and they'll start the conversation with "murderers this, murderers that," and then they'll have like this middle part of like low-level crimes and criminals, and which is a huge bulk of the percentage of people in prison are crimes that are just like, you know, stealing or property crimes or something that's not dangerous, but it is a crime. So you start off with murderers and murderers and all these violent crimes, which is a very small percentage. And then you talk about this big section of people who are low level crimes and petty criminals, whatever they call 'em. It's a huge percentage of our prison system. And then you end with like rapists and child molesters, people who are misinformed through our media, they hear murderers and then something else, and then they'll end with like murders and rapists, and that's where they lump everybody up. But our major prison population is really people that are like systematically inundated with inequality, lack of access to jobs, lack of access to resources like medical, and they commit crimes that are like informal economies. They're like, you know, petty thief or selling drugs or, you know, something-- that's the bulk of our prison system. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: But media more entrepreneurship says murderers, killers and violent crime, and then they end with murder or rapists and child molesters. And that's a very small percentage of our prison population. You know? And but when you, when you start with that and end with this? We're all bad people. Right. And it's not-- Yeah, I'm so critical about media &lt ; laughs&gt ; , you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: 'Cause they, they strategically figured out how to get the vote. You know? And I'm not talking about, I'm not voting for one. It's like, you know, liberal Democrats are one way and conservative Republicans are another. And I kind of feel like, no, there's a lot of in between that we're ignoring you know? There's a lot of great politicians or people who are just silenced by these two big conglomerates. Right. And they're supported by these big media corporations. And they're all-- I would say they're all in it together. Let's just be very critical about them. That's my job as a citizen, as an educator, is let's just be critical about our government, the systems that run our government, the corporations that run our government. Because if it isn't about the prison system, it's also about lack of education for people. It's also about lack of medical care. It's a lack of good livable wages. You know what I mean? There's so much more if we just remove the prison system, there's so much more to focus on. We just need to be critical about the entire system we're living in. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I think Covid taught me that because we breathe the same air, we should be talking about the same things. Right? &lt ; laughs&gt ; One person gets sick. We should all think about, we all can get sick too, right? And I think there's an illness with the prison system. It impacts us all. Your tax dollars, my tax dollars. I think there's forty-five percent of people in the United States who have a loved one in prison or who know somebody's been locked up. Some major portion of our population who know somebody's impacted by the prison system. We should all be focusing on it together. Right? Visintainer: Yeah. And we're the largest carcell-. Sorry, I didn't have trouble with this word. Leyva: Carceral. Visintainer: Carceral, Thank you. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; Laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Carceral country on earth, aren't we? Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: I always say it's a, you know, United States is five percent of the world's population, but twenty-five percent of the world's prison population. It's pretty wild. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and you think, like, you know, China and other countries are bigger than ours, but they, they have less prison system. Right. And it's again, we can get into the exploitation of labor. But-- Visintainer: Yeah. And I do want to talk about systems with you, but could we shift for a little bit and talk a little bit about kind of your journey to where you got and then I want to follow up with systems. I got some kind of more big picture questions for you. So I just wanted to ask, where did you grow up? Leyva: Born and raised in Santa Barbara [California]. I always have to name my neighborhood. The west side of Santa Barbara is my home. I love that place. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Don't want to ever want to move back, but I love that place. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Yeah. What do you love about it? Leyva: It's just a great little community. It's beautiful beaches, mountains family still there. A lot of history there. When I go back, just like cruising certain neighborhoods, certain streets. It's just a lot of-- it's just a beautiful place. Visintainer: Yeah. What did in your childhood, what did your community look like? Leyva: It's interesting you ask that question because growing up my community was just like, it's a beautiful community. A lot of good little restaurants, a lot of good neighbors, a lot of good food, a lot of good communities. But you don't know what you don't know, right? But it was a lot of poverty, a lot of crime, a lot of sadness, a lot of hardships. But you don't really see that when you're in the middle of it. Right. You don't really ever, you don't ever really critique it when you're like, this is my life. Right. So it was, there was a lot of that and a lot of-- there's a lot of beautiful community built around this ugly thing, you know what I mean? Like the crime and the police and, you know, the lack of schools. But if you don't know what it is, you just, and that's all you know, and you're accepted, right? Yeah. It is beautiful. My family, my mom, my two sisters, and, you know, cousins and community members-- its good people all around. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. What were some of the gathering places? Leyva: The gathering places in my community growing up? The home is always one. That's the best one. But, you know, our, you know, little parks. And for me, I like this question actually, the gathering places. I don't know why the-- places like Oak Park and Alameda Park, these places are ringing a bell, but also the corners. Right. thinking one in particular. San Andres and Micheltorena Street, like those were the gathering spots. Those are like--Bath and Ortega Street. You just see the little cornerstore friends and family gathered there, you know? Yeah. Starting trouble or laughing or yelling at each other or something. But yeah, those are-- I like that question. Visintainer: Yeah. What did Oak Park look like? Leyva: Was Oak Park and Ortega Park were the two main parks and I'm thinking Oak Park was just that a lot of oak trees, a lot of barbecue pits what they would call the kiddie pool. Right. The pool that's only like a foot deep and the playground. And on weekends there was the smell of barbecue and beer &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Visintainer: You know, and Ortega Park is still to this day, one of the most beautiful places there in Santa Barbara because there's same thing, the swimming pool, the playground, the basketball courts, the soccer field, and it's just a block wide. It's not even that big of a park. But there's murals, right? That's like kind of Santa Barbara's own Chicano Park. It's just one little area. Okay. But there's murals on the wall and there's growing up I didn't see the, the crime that was happening, the drug you started, I didn't see that stuff because that's just, you're in the mix, right? You're in the, that's just what happens there. Now I can see it differently through different spectacles, but yeah, it was just the same thing. The smell of barbecue and beer and laughing and music, you know what I mean? Visintainer: Did you have a favorite mural or do you have a favorite mural? Leyva: God, I wish I could show you the picture of it. Yes. There's like this Aztec warrior mural and it was just like this side view. A guy named Manuel Unzueta is the muralist and he's from Santa Barbara. He did a lot of the murals there. But yeah, it was like this Aztec god kind of person. And back then I wasn't really like really into the history yet as I am now, but I remember going back to Ortega Park after being educated after coming home from prison and be like this, like now there's like a connection, not only that's my childhood, but also like academically thinking like I understand the history of where we come from, right? Yeah. So but also I love bright colors and love like images, so yeah. That was, that was one that always stood out. Visintainer: You talked about barbecue a couple times. What kind of barbecue? What did folks like to barbecue? Leyva: Oh, you know, tri-tip and chicken! Santa Barbara, it was Santa Maria nearby. Santa Maria is the birthplace of tri-tip. And so this tri-tip and chicken and corn wrapped in foil, &lt ; laughs&gt ; put on the barbecue pit. And that was, that was the thing. Visintainer: That sounds good. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Who were your childhood role models? Leyva: Um. My childhood role models. Quote unquote the "bad guys." I didn't see 'em as bad guys, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: It's funny because uh, just had this conversation earlier today, but you know, family members, like my uncles, you know, they were the cool guys who dressed nice, who got the handshakes, who got the respect in the neighborhood. And again, growing up in that, you don't see or think about the negativity that's going on. But they were my role models because they were the ones who like would give me a hug and tell me they loved me or tell me they see me or buy me a coke or an ice cream. Right? And you look up to that, right? Not understanding that the money that they used to buy that stuff for people in the neighborhood, like little kids in the neighborhood also came from drug sales. You don't see that, or nor do you even think about that. You just know that these role models were like the men who were, you know, the men who actually recognized me and saw me. The women who would always be like, "Are you doing your homework?" And, you know, and the women weren't particularly like into a positive lifestyle either, but they would use terms like mijo or mi rey, right? "My little king." And they would always say, you know, go to school and do good. And the kid, the men would be like, "Don't get into trouble." You know what I mean? You know, but if you got in trouble, they'd be like, "Good job." You know what I mean? &lt ; laughter&gt ; So it's like one on one hand, don't get in trouble. Second hand like, alright, good job! You know what I mean? So yeah. They were, they were the ones that actually saw us for who we were. Right. And I love having that experience in life and now being able to see it from a different vantage point. Right. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: They were just doing the best they can with what they had. Right. And that they had a-- you know, my mom and my stepdad and my uncles and all the other men and women in the neighborhood giving me the best they can with their own unresolved trauma. Right. That they did the best they can and that their life was better than what they had when they were kids. And that my life was better than they had it. And that my generation after me, my kids have it better than what I had it. And that's the trajectory of life right, now that I'm able to see it from a vantage point. Absolutely. Love those role models. You know, even though now I'm like, "Ah, you were doing some shady stuff, but I love you for it." You know what I mean? So, Yeah. Visintainer: What did your stepdad and your mom do? Did they do for a living? Leyva: My mom main job was house cleaning, cleaning hotel rooms or cleaning houses or factory work. And my stepdad was a-- he worked in a nursery and a, he worked in a nursery taking care of plants and also a mechanic at the nursery. That was their main industry. You know, I was, I did the first gen talk today and that was interesting. I'm a first-generation college student. College, school wasn't that important to my family. Work was, you know, they valued work over education. You know and working hard too. I think I got my work ethic from my mom. My mom sometimes especially after my stepdad left, would work, guaranteed two jobs and sometimes if she could three jobs, which wasn't the best for my upbringing pertaining to like a mom I could come home to and do homework with. I never grew up with that. Right? So, you know, I left high school in ninth grade, so prior to going to prison and getting my high school diploma in prison, I was, had a ninth-grade education. And so that's what I felt like when I entered these spaces. I'm like, I've a ninth-grade education 'cause I don't remember my high school diploma. But, you know, thinking about my mom, I mean, that was, you know, she was, she's a hard worker. She was a hard worker. She retired early because she worked so hard. Right. Medically retired. But yeah, it was uh-- good work ethic I'll tell that. Show up to work and were just sick or not, show up &lt ; laughs&gt ; . I'm like-- When I'm sick. But she's like, "No, you gotta go to work." I'm like, all right. Going to work sick. But going. Visintainer: Yeah. We come back to tenacity then. Leyva: Yeah. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Yeah. Can you tell me about the first time that you got in legal trouble? Leyva: Yeah. About fifteen [years old]. I mean, kind of a funny story, but you know, I got in trouble for stealing mopeds. I remember going to court for it and like, "Why are you stealing mopeds?" Or, you know, they didn't ask the question. I just wanted to ride a moped. I didn't to sell it or try to make money. I was just like, I learned how to hot wire a moped. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And as soon as I did that, every time I saw a little Honda Spree, I pop the top, pop the front cover off and pull the wire and it'd just kick right over. And it was just fun. And you know, I got in trouble for having, I think like three Honda Sprees in my backyard, you know, and got popped and got in trouble and, you know, I'm, you know, committing crimes you know. Visintainer: And how did you learn how to hot wire a moped? Leyva: Once again, observational learning. Yeah. I think I think there's this like misunderstanding how people commit crimes and yeah. Certain people will teach you how to do certain things, but for a majority of people in prison, we just learned by observation. You know, I saw this older guy in my neighborhood and I don't even remember. He's like, "I gotta go!" And he went up to this Honda Spree, he did like the little move. And he just took a little knife out of his pocket and popped it and I saw him take the wires out and jumped on it and kick started it. And just hit the handlebars cause the handlebars had the little lock on it. The lock broke real easy. And he just took off. You know, I was like, "I'm gonna try that." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and then I saw a Honda Spree and I know stealing ain't nice. I know it's wrong, but at the time you're like, that was so cool. How did you do that? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I saw a Honda Spree downtown one day and I think it took me a little longer &lt ; laughs&gt ; to get it going, but as soon as I got it going, there was a rush. Right. And again, I'm not saying it was okay cause it's not. But that rush felt good. Visintaienr: Yeah. Leyva: You know, and I saw him, I'm like, "Ah, where'd you get that little, where'd you get that little Honda?" I'm like, "I took it." He's like, "Oh, let me take it." And he took it from me. Right. So it's like when you steal a bike in the neighborhood, it becomes a neighborhood bike. Everybody's using the same stolen bike. Right. And yeah. It's just a thing to do right? Through observations. Even like I talk about my addiction cause I was addicted to substances and alcohol. And I say it openly with students. I was addicted to heroin for a long time, and it wasn't like somebody taught me how to do it. It wasn't-- You weren't literally taught how to do it. You just see it happening. And when you see it happening, it just becomes, "I know how to do that," because you saw somebody else how to unfortunately use drugs, whether intravenously or not, you just learn it by watching. And I think that's how we learn how to say the things we say, dress how we dress, act like we act, respond, how we respond, whether you know, violence was never taught to me, but it's something I grew up watching. Right. I remember everything from like learning how to express sadness. I remember my stepdad would be like mad, like sad and then he would just like hit the door with his hand. And when you're a little kid and you're watching that or he'd say like, I'm so mad. And then he hit something. If I'm mad too, I gotta hit something. Right. And it's everything with committing crimes to expressing feelings and emotions. It's all observational. Visintainer: Yeah. So, is there an analog to the work you do now? Providing-- Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Providing, modeling for people that are learning? Leyva: Yeah. Emotional intelligence and emotional management. When we feel something, you know, it's me. I've been clean and sober nineteen years and when my mom died four years ago, because I trained my mind that when I feel a big emotion, my mind goes automatically to the reaction, which is the drug use the violence or whatever. Even though my mind thought about it, I've taught myself that there's no visceral reaction. My biological response doesn't have to, I don't have to do these things. I don't have to act out in these ways. And so when I work with individuals around emotional management and understanding that we have no control over our emotions, you're gonna feel something, you're gonna feel it! But how we respond to it, the emotional management part is how we should focus on. Mindfulness, meditation, taking a deep breath, taking a step back. I always say, "Pretend you're the outsider looking in." Take a step back and take a look at what is gonna hap-- what you know is gonna happen or what you feel is gonna happen and respond from that place rather than inside of it. And I'm also big on dismantling patriarchy 'cause I feel like patriarchy is the number one pusher of so many systemic issues of oppression. Even the war in Ukraine is patriarchy. Right. Like patriarchy is very dangerous. And as somebody who is raised in it and colluded with it, they've created it so well-- I want my kids to have a good understanding of who their father is. Not in that violent state, but in this healed or healing individual who can talk about feelings and emotions, who can allow myself to cry without feeling something I couldn't, I could wear a pink shirt and pink socks without somebody saying something to me because I'm very comfortable with who I am. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And I think that working with individuals that becomes my educational piece, is we have to really learn who we are and how we respond. Because how we respond sometimes takes us to the places we are, the jails and the prisons, our addictions, our own self harm, our own self destruction. I love these places, these places. And education has given me this understanding of who society constructs me to be versus who I want to be. And a lot of times we follow the construction because they make it glorious or cool or like, this is all I have. It's not all we have, we're meant to be other people. We're meant to be who we really are. Empathetically, empathetic, caring, understanding, loving, warm, you know. So yeah. I teach a lot of emotional intelligence to our students. 'Cause I think we need to be there for our families and our communities. And we can't do that if we're angry or mad or not-- being angry or mad is okay. But how we respond to it is different. Right. We shouldn't have to respond in negative ways, you know? And so far so good. I've been doing this work for a long time. I see a lot of change. So, you know. Visintainer: That is beautiful statement. Thank you. Um, I don't know, I think a lot about, you know, growing up in patriarchy and masculinity and how harmful, like, I didn't even know how harmful it was, you know? Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: And yeah, I don't know. I'm glad you're doing the work at dismantling it, I guess is all I have to say about it. Leyva: &lt ; laughs&gt ; Yeah. No, it's an uphill battle sometimes, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But I always say, you know what, in football they always say it's a ten-yard fight. Just go ten yards and start again. Go ten yards, start again. And but I feel it's an obligation too, it's an obligation. And I want to, if there's one way to shut down the prison system is really help people stop going. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know. That's the goal. Visintainer: Yeah. So, you had three mopeds in your backyard. So how did you, how did you get caught? Leyva: Just being reckless, right. Driving without, you know, back then you didn't need a helmet. But you know, driving through my neighborhood and just crossing stop signs and cops, you know, or like, I remember one time I was driving. And if you remember the Honda Sprees, they had like this little section where you put your little feet right? And I was driving and had one guy standing right in front of me. So I was leaning to the side to look where I was going. And then I had another friend of mine sitting behind me. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So, three people on a small Honda Spree, cop saw us and said, pull 'em over. Right. And as soon as I stopped, my two friends just took off. And I'm like, "Well, here I am." Right. And so obviously the cop could see the wires on hanging on the side and, you know, it's so funny to think back at the little things I used to do and be like, how did I think I can get away with this stuff? You know? And that's how you got caught. Just being reckless and I guess funny at the same time. But, you know, the, the consequence isn't something to laugh at, right. &lt ; Laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: You know. So-- Visintainer: Did you go to juvenile detention? Leyva: Went to juvenile detention. Juvenile court. Mom was always working. So my sister, remember my sister going to court with me, they were both older than me. Back then it really was a slap on the wrist, a little juvenile detention you know, a little probation check-in here and there. You know, the more I got in trouble... I dunno life moved really fast 'cause actually, you know, I'm eighteen and going in and out the county jail again for, you know, driving cars without licenses for DUIs [Driving Under the Influence], for stolen-- possession of stolen property. Not like, and not saying that DUIs is not a big deal, it's a huge deal But you know, nothing really big or major. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Levya: Right. No violence. And sure there was violence happening, it just never got caught doing it. Right? And I always tell folks like, I've been really lucky not to go away for the crimes that I have committed. Not to say I should have gotten away with it, but I did. And it's like, also it's another fuel that adds, it's more fuel to be like, "I need to do this work because I know that there's a lot of people doing things they wish they weren't doing and they're just not getting caught for it." It's like, let's give them another avenue to go down. You know? So but I think my life led to the point where, you know, I got in trouble for selling guns or having, you know, illegal guns and, you know, this stuff was again, all just part of a lifestyle that I was living that, we don't critique it. We're just in the middle of it. All the way to my last, my last prison term which was a robbery, you know, walked into a place and demanded some money, not even demanded it. Just say, "Hey, I need some money." I knew, I actually knew I would get caught on my last crime. I knew I would get caught. I didn't run, didn't try to pretend it wouldn't happen. Committed a robbery in 2004 and knew I would get in trouble. And I think it was my, I think it was my cry for help because I was so embedded within my addiction and-- no, I felt like I didn't have another way out. I didn't know how to ask for help. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And so when I think about my crimes as a juvenile, just the trajectory of how just, you know, petty crimes to maybe not so petty crimes, but gun sales to more violations of probation to led to, you know, a robbery that wasn't an armed property, I didn't have a knife or gun. But still it was a pretty significant robbery. I think that that time going to prison was my cry for help. You know, I just didn't want to do drugs and alcohol or live this life where I just felt really like in a sense like I wanted to die. Right. I talk to a lot of folks who were formerly incarcerated who say, you know, "I've reached that point where I didn't know what else to do. I'd rather go to prison than have to deal with the struggle out here, the suffering that happens out here." And I think our prison is full of individuals who feel like they had no other option. You know, because a lot of times when we grow up in this very patriarchal environment, especially for men to say, "I'm sad, I need help. I wanna change, but I don't know how," because that's a sign of weakness to say like, "I feel emotional." And for other men or even women to say, oh, they use these negative connotations. Like stop being-- you know, they relate it to words that are used for women and they just, we don't wanna feel that. So what do we do? Go out, commit a crime, go to prison. And I know I've had conversations with other men in prison and be like, "I just, I'd rather be here than out there." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I know men who've gone-- who are in prison and they, their date, their release date's coming up and they automatically like go after another inmate or they go after a guard and they commit another crime so they can stay longer. I never understood that when I was in prison and then I come home and I start doing this work and I'm like this place is harsh on us. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, and there was even a time when I first left prison where I felt like [unclear] I can't get a job. I keep losing this job. You know, I'm sleeping on my sister's couch. You know, my daughter wants to hang out but I don't have money in my pocket. I was like, "Fuck I'd rather be back in prison than have to deal with this stuff." Right. And I, you know, that was me in 2007 and that's the individual I could talk to right now. Who just got out. It's like. It's easier to live in prison than it is there. You know, you got strict rules and boundaries. But we understand that life. And when I committed my crime in 2004 and I committed the robbery, that was a cry for help. And I'll never say that prison saved my life because it didn't. But it gave me an understanding. Finally I was ready to do the work. You know, something happened all of a sudden where I'm like, I get out and I'm gonna try my best to stay out and I'm gonna be humble. And, you know, if I turned away a lot of friends when I came home from prison because as soon as I got out my neighborhood was like, "Hey, you want to hang out? You wanna do some--Let's go partying!" For me to say no to the people that I've never said no to was the hardest thing. Right. And that was me facing patriarchy right on. I had a friend when I came home from prison, literally the day after, I hadn't heard from him the entire time I was a prison. He offered me a thousand dollars and an ounce of, of methamphetamines. Right. This was his way to show love his way. He wasn't trying to get me in trouble. He wasn't trying to set me up. But this is my understanding of this is how we take care of each other. And sure. As he's standing in front of me, he's offering me this. "You know, it's just to help you get back on your feet," is what he said to me. And for me to say no in that moment, I knew that I was defying an entire system that was set up for me. 'Cause he looked at me and he is like, "Okay, okay. Like, that's kind of weird." You don't, you don't say no to this in this neighborhood. You don't say no in this culture. You don't say-- you don't deny this offering. But I denied it. And when I denied it, I defied the system that I knew well. Visintainer: And did that, did that sever that relationship? Leyva: It did. I've not talked to the guy ever since. This is fifteen years ago. Visintainer: Do you mourn those relationships that are gone? Leyva: I think there's an emotional and mental and in a way a spiritual transition that needed to happen. Yeah. Because, you know, I mean these just like-- I took care of them. They took care of me. On the outside. They didn't care for me when I was in prison. That's usually what happens. But I knew that once I denied that, if I needed help, he was gonna deny me. Right. Or there needed to be a reckoning of that. And by not hearing from him anymore, I knew that okay, my life. Yeah. You defied this thing and I kind of felt like, okay, my circle all of a sudden got real small. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. And I just shared today in my talk today, that the more healing one does, the more healing I did, the more work I did on myself, the smaller and smaller my circle gets. Right. Some people just will not accept you anymore unless you're doing what they're doing. As long as they feel like you need them and they need you because misery is old--the saying misery loves company, right? They don't know a lot of people in my community, a lot of people in other areas, they don't know what to do with healed or healing people. Right. And my circle got real, my circle's small to this day, my circle is real small and I think now I prefer it that way. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I feel safer. I feel more included. I seem more like it's easier for me to ask for help. It's easier for me to, to give help. Right. Because a lot of times when you're in the mix of misery, you're carrying the burdens of that too. And I still, I carry a lot of burdens on me 'cause I got people coming home from prison every single day. People coming home from jail every single day. People relapsing and reaching out. I need help. I need a rehab, or I need a detox or I need something and, and to be of service rather than, you know, to be part of the solution rather than being a part of the problem. It's a, it is a heavy load to carry, but it's a lot lighter than carrying the load of my neighborhood when I denied that guy, my homeboy. I can't, I appreciate you, I love you and thank you for this offer, but I can't accept it. That all of a sudden put, you know, Martin-- the rumors started, Martin is oh, he must have snitched or he must have done this or he must have done that. Or you know, all of a sudden there's speculation about who I am versus they can't just accept the fact that I want to change my life. Right. But yeah, it's that's a struggle that a lot of incarcerated people are thinking about when they're coming home. And a lot of formerly incarcerated are faced with when they walk outside the door. And they wanna change. You know? And this is why programs like the in the community college or the university are so important because we give people that visibility and understanding that there's nothing wrong with you. And I don't even wanna say there's something wrong with my community because it's a culture that's there, right? But we don't have to partake in that culture anymore. That I can still be me. I can still be aesthetically who I am. I can still understand that. And I don't have to code switch if I don't want to. But again, I don't have to feed into that, you know? And so yeah. We went from my first crime to this &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But it's all, it's all really interconnected because I think that people are committing crimes because we don't know what else to do with ourselves and we don't know how to ask for help and we don't know how to-- We're being denied resources or jobs and so we commit crimes. And you know, sometimes I remember getting paychecks, you know, I was doing construction for a while and I look at my paycheck and, you know, I just had my first daughter was born. I was like, this isn't enough money to pay for rent and food and all this stuff. So I'd go out and I'd sell little drugs and do a little this and all of a sudden I had a little extra money. Not like I was selling to try to get rich. I was selling to try to keep the lights on or try to, I want to provide. One of my daughters wanted, oh, this little bike is cool, my paycheck ain't enough, but you know, I could sell a little bit of this and then go get that bike. You know what I mean? It makes me feel-- I know it's not the right thing to do. I know now, but at the time it's like the joy of seeing my daughter have something. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: The joy of seeing a family around Christmas and Christmas presents, knowing that it's gonna put a smile on their faces. You think I'm really caring about the feeling I had about selling drugs to get that money. Not, you know, and it's you know, could I do it now? Absolutely not. Right. 'Cause I know there's harm being created, but yeah. Visintainer: That must have, that must be like a really difficult part of the journey going home and realizing, I guess is realizing that a home is not exactly the home that you're-- it's not the same place that it was before you went to, I guess. Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Or it is but you're not the same. Leyva: You're not the same. No, it's hard because it depends how we define home. Right? My home with my sisters and my mom, she unfortunately passed away four years ago. Home changed when she, when she died, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Home changed when I decided to stop being the identified patient, Right. Because in my home, everybody's worried about Martin. Everybody's worried about, he's in jail, he's on drugs, he's doing this, he's doing that. I was the identified patient. And when I stopped being the identified patient in my family, my family didn't know what to do with me, let alone my community. You know, my friends growing up, like all of a sudden he's different. He's-- you know there's a loss there, right? But also now looking at home, whether it's the family or the community, now that I can see home as a different thing, I can help create a better home for those around me. Right. Access to, oh, let me help you with your job resume so you can get a better job. Let me help you get into college. Whether it's a welding certification or a HVAC certification, a job that'll get you a better pay. Right. And you can have a record and still do this work. Like, understanding this is like now I can actually help mold a new home for people, including my home. 'Cause my neighborhood in Santa Barbara is still my home. I live in San Marcos in a little neighborhood. That's considered my home too because it mirrors the same neighborhood I grew up in. Escondido, Ocean-- certain parts of Ocean[side], like these places around here. The struggle of my neighborhood is the struggle of these neighborhoods. They're not different. So I get to define and create what home is. Right. And I hope that makes sense. 'Cause it to me it's like, I think that's an obligation I feel like I have. And I always tell formerly incarcerated folks that we have an obligation to create the change that we didn't have. Be the mentors we didn't have be the fathers, we didn't have be the uncles and the brothers and everything that we didn't have or the mothers or the sisters. You know what I mean? This is-- gender's important, but we get to define home now. Hopefully better. Right. It's a matter of whether the people around us want to accept it or not. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Yeah. You know what I mean? So. Visintainer: The, the last time that you went into prison, did you know when you were in prison last time that you weren't going back? Or was that something that you realized afterwards? Leyva: You wanna hear something pretty wild? I still don't know if I'm going back. Cause I'm not the individual that says I'm never going back to prison. Visintainer: Gotcha. Leyva: I'm not the individual who says I'm never gonna drink or use again. I just know that right now, today, I'm not gonna go back and I'm not gonna drink. I'm not gonna use tomorrow. I can't predict, I can't predict two days from now. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And so I live my life that way. Right. But I knew-- This is a whole conversation itself. I didn't know, I knew when I was in prison, I was like, you know, this is, I know what rules to follow. I know what rules to adhere to. I know what rules to, to press. Right. I knew how to discipline somebody if they crossed the rule or broke a rule. That was a, is a easy life for me. I think what was, I think what happened -- actually, I don't think -- I know what happened is I met a group of men this time in prison that I was listening to. These men who were like talking to me about feelings and emotions. They were talking to me about spirituality and the sweat lodge and praying. They were talking to me about critical pedagogy, like mass incarceration and the war on drugs and gang injunctions. And I was like, "What the hell are you talking about?" These are not words that I know. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: Right. And then they would give me books to read and they would like I remember after again-- I remember asking if I can go to college and the prison counselor was like, no, because you have a write up. I don't even know why I was asking for college. I got a high school diploma. I was like, I just wanted to-- I knew other people were doing college on their bunks right. From their cells. And they denied me college right away. But I still got educated in there because I read Pedagogy of the Oppressed for the first time in prison. I read My Life Is a Sun Dance by Leonard Peltier. I read Fanon, Marx and Lennon and I read all these books in prison. I had no idea what they meant. But these men were trying to critically teach me in the belly of the beast, mass incarceration. We build these buildings, we create the labor force and all this stuff. And I was back then, knowing what I know now, right this second, back then I was like, "What the hell are you talking about?" But I was still reading it. I was still listening. I was still paying attention. And when I entered college for the first time, and I'm sitting there and in sociology, they're talking, well, mass incarceration, these laws and policies and all of a sudden I'm thinking about Mitch and Joe and Squeaks these men who already put these language in my head. And I was like, this is why I gotta be critical. Right. And it all made sense. And I believe in the universe. It was the universe put that stuff in front of me. Even if it made no sense, it made sense later. Right. How did we even get here? &lt ; Laughter&gt ; But there, there is, right? I think this is super important because it's like we become, I knew I didn't know that I would never go back to prison. I still don't know. I didn't know that. I all I knew is that when I left prison, I didn't want to go back. How I was gonna do it? I don't know. But I also knew-- one advice my uncle gave me, who also I learned through observation about drug use and violence. My uncle told me a long time ago, I don't even know, I mean thirty years ago, he told me, "When you get to prison," 'cause it was a matter of if it was a matter of when or, "When you get locked up, don't drink, don't use." He always said, "Use that as a moment of clarity." And so I took that to heart. So every time I've been incarcerated at any time, I've never drank or used in prison or jail. And I think this last time I spent years not drinking, not using, because it's easy in jail, in prison to use. And I think it just had this moment of clarity where I was like, "I don't want this." And I had this guy, Mitch Bodner, who was one of my elders in prison. And he passed away this past year, last year. Early on in my sentence, he's like-- he's like, you remember pointing this finger at me and saying, "You don't belong here. There's something about you. You don't belong here." And I got offended. I was like, "What do you mean? I mean I'm here. I got the same tattoo you got!" Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, "I run with the same group you run, what do you mean I don't belong here?" And he mentored me from that day on. And he's just like, when you go home, you help the people. When you, you know, you gotta be there for your kids. You have to be a father. You have to, you know what I mean? He kept plugging me in with all this stuff. And for the beginning I was like, "You're full of shit old man." Right. But he wasn't. He wasn't. He knew what he was talking about. And I am friends with his son who's also formerly incarcerated. And as Mitch passed away, me and -- his name's Creighton Bodner -- I could see, I could see Mitch's wisdoms spewed out on him too. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Right. And I understand what Mitch was saying, like, people around you matter and they can, you take care of them and they'll take care of you. You take care of each other, you got an entire community of people who advocate for each other. And I learned that through some random dude I met in prison. So yeah. I didn't know I wanted to, I just knew, All I knew is I didn't wanna go back to prison. And so far I'm fifteen years successful. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Visintainer: Could we talk a little bit more about the mentors that you met? Leyva: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: So how did you meet them? Leyva: Well, Mitch and Rodeo Joe were part of the same subculture. I don't call 'em gangs anymore. Like, "Oh, you're part of a prison gang." I was like, "I'm part of a prison subculture that kept me safe." And they were both-- Rodeo Joe was an artist, is an artist. And Mitch was part of uh, he's kind of a revolutionary. And Mitch was really that one guy who was like the father-figure. Right. The guy who was like-- mentored me around spirituality especially. And I always say, the sweat lodge and Native spirituality really is my practice today, it saved my life. Really. And he showed me songs and rituals and these things that, you know, I felt like got a father finally. Right? And Rodeo Joe was the, he's always reading and creating art. Reading and art. And he always-- he handed me books and said, "What do you think about this book?" And I-- we'd have conversations about different books. He was like my, both of 'em were like my teacher. But Squeaks on the other hand, I talk about Squeaks quite a bit to folks cause Squeaks was an old Black man. And in prison you don't cross lines ; drugs and cigarettes and even water. Right. Like, things you just don't do. And it's a funny story. And I've written this story before where it was easier for Joe and Mitch to be my mentors 'cause they're part of my subculture. But for somebody like Squeaks who I always say, and I'm writing about this in my dissertation, where out of Squeaks, I've cultivated this idea of a cellblock intellectual. 'Cause I remember sitting in my cell one day, the yard was open, We can exit our building, we can do everything. And I was reading The Four Agreements[: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom]. Ruiz, no not Ruiz, anyway, The Four Agreements, I don't remember the author's name, um, Miguel Ruiz. I was reading The Four Agreements and I remember Squeaks came up to my cell just to the door and he said, he's like, "What are you reading?" And we kinda have a little exchange of eyeball exchange because, you know, he's Black and I'm Native and we just had to have this understanding. It was a really funny story. And I was like, Four Agreements. And he's like, "Oh, that's a good book. It's kind of a shitty read." You know, &lt ; Visintainer laughs&gt ; like he started critically thinking like, "It's a crappy book, son! You know what I mean?" And he's the one who first handed me Pedagogy of the Oppressed. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: And he said, "You should read this book." And what was it? Maybe he was, no, actually I think he handed me Leonard Peltier's book. And he's like, "Here, you should read this." He starts telling me about the book. "Just to help you understand the place you're in." I took the book and I said, "Cool, thanks." Didn't pay it no mind. And sure enough, as soon as I opened it, I started reading it, I didn't really understand it, but I knew because Leonard Peltier was also Native and in prison, I had a connection to Uncle Leonard, right? And like a week and a half, two weeks later, about a week and a half, I was walking the yard and Squeak comes up to me, said, "What'd you think of that book?" And it was like, I knew that there was something there when I said, "That's pretty good." And he started to started telling me about the book. Like he had it memorized. And from there he became my mentor. And nobody ever questioned the relationship between me and Squeaks and race because they knew it was about education. Wasn't about drugs, it wasn't about food, it wasn't about anything illegal is about books. And nobody ever questioned the mentorship around literature in prison, everything else they would've. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. So there are certain ways for people in prison to interact across the racial lines then-- Leyva: Yeah. Visintainer: Where that, where that dynamic is not present or not as present. Leyva: Definitely. Definitely. And I think that education is one and you know, you can talk to whoever you want to talk to, but we also know that, you know, Squeaks and I both knew and Squeaks was an old dude already. So he wasn't involved in politics even though he would definitely go head to head against the system. But the prison politics, he wasn't involved. But we also knew that if anything was ever happened amongst races, we would go against each other. We just knew that without a doubt. Right. What's interesting, and it makes it very important thing to note, is that even Miguel Ruiz's book, The Four Agreements, Pedagogy [of] the Oppressed," even like the The Souls of Black [Folk], like all these books that I was reading in prison, they're all considered banned books. They're considered banned books out here. Right. And in the prison system, I can get-- Squeaks and Rodeo Joe, we can all get written up for having these books. And the more writeups we can get a sent to administrative segregation for literature. We can have our visitation privileges removed. Our commissary privileges removed, our job detail removed. Just for literature. And he always said, "Here, read this and don't get this book taken away from you." And I never understood that, "Well, who's gonna take away this book?" Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: You know, I had to learn about banned books when I came out here and I realized that every single one of those books I read was on a list that the prison system had. That if you get caught-- Pedagogy of the Oppressed had like a paper bag cover on it Didn't even say Pedagogy of the Oppressed on the outside. I remember this didn't happen to me, but I remember like books that would say, you know, Holy Bible on the outside, but on the inside it's like a whole other book. Right? Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Leyva: And they strategically hid literature inside other literature. Danielle Steele and these fucking novels, these love novels that people would always read. A lot of times it was just the covers but the books on the inside were different. Of course people were reading like love books and stuff, but I can never get into that prison book &lt ; laughs&gt ; . But I understood banned books when I came out here and I began to read about banned books and I began to understand like I can, you know, I don't understand why it's just literature. But, you know, the Attica uprising and racial groups banding together is dangerous for the system. Right. They don't want us to band together. 'Cause it would become, I always say it become like a union force. Right. And they don't want that. So they make it difficult and, and make it difficult for us to have these books. They make it punishable to have these books. Squeaks and Joe and Mitch and others knew that this was a thing. I didn't at the time, I just read the books and had conversations. Right. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: But that was my mentors and that, you know, I wholeheartedly to this day hold them in high regard. And I remember it was Mitch who said-- he always said this whole thing and people said this old cliche too. He's like, "Make sure you burn your idols. Anybody you idolize be better than them. Never-- anybody comes in your life that is teaching you something. Make sure you learn it better than they have it." And that's the goal too, when I mentor somebody, it's like, "Oh, Martin, I want to be just like you." I'm like, "Why you wanna be like me? Be better. Go higher, go farther, help more people." Do you know what I mean? It's like you always gotta, and that's what Squeaks and Mitch and Joe taught me. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: And their mentorship was, is, is, and from my understanding, well one: I know Squeaks and Mitch have passed on and I think Joe is still alive. I'd love to get an interview with Joe. But yeah, that's the goal is just, you know, take their mentorship, their guidance, their love and amplify it. Visintainer: Yeah. That's a good goal. Leyva: And that's what I feel like I'm doing. I think I'm paying them a lot of respect by doing the work I do right now. Visintainer: Thank you. Thank you for talking with me a little bit about your background and how you kind of came to where you're at now. I was curious-- let's see. What led you to North San Diego County? Leyva: Graduate school. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Graduate school. Which I never thought I'd do. Right. I'm the first male in my family to go to college, let alone get an associate's degree or bachelor's degree? I got my bachelor's degree in Santa Barbara at Antioch University. Cost too much money. But Dr. Chris Bickel, who teaches here was teaching at San Luis Obispo at the time, encouraged me to go to graduate school. And it just so happened he just started teaching out here too. The same year. I came out as the same year. I think it was here about a year and a half before I came out here. But North County, San Diego was home because of graduate school and because it's a critical-- Cal State San Marcos was a very critical department of sociology, you know, they teach justice studies rather than criminology. Justice studies for me I knew for a fact when I got my bachelor's degree in psychology, I was like, "I wanna be a MFT or social worker." And then I was like, what brought me here was the idea that they were gonna pick apart rational choice here. Cause I always heard rational choice, like, people choose to drink, people choose to commit crime, people do this. And I was like, Dr. Bickel, Dr. [Xuan] Santos were like, there's systems that make-- that create this playing field that's not fair, just. There's, people don't just choose to wake up like, I'm gonna commit a crime. No. It's like your access to jobs, your access to money, your access to all these things is denied. So then we commit crimes. Right. I remember, and I did this -- really quickly -- I did this in my neighborhood: I did a little experiment in my neighborhood in Santa Barbara. I stood on the corner for like four hours, four or five hours. Hung out on the corner. In about every seven minutes there was a cop that drove by. And then I counted the liquor stores in my neighborhood. Nine block radius, eleven liquor stores. And I remember hearing a judge once tell me when I got in trouble for alcohol. They're like, you know, "You're nothing but an alcoholic." You're, you know I don't know what the judge said, but I was like, okay, you're blaming me for my alcoholism. Who's blaming you for allowing so many liquor store in my neighborhood? "Oh, you're always continuing to getting pulled over by the police. You must be trouble." I said, "Why is there then a cop driving through my neighborhood every seven minutes?" Cause they're looking for something. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: So you want-- I want to be accountable for the things I do, yes. But this school brought me out here. I came out here to this school because they're gonna help me hold the system accountable for the things they're doing too. The long, long que-- a long answer to that, why I'm out here, right. &lt ; laughter&gt ; Sorry. Visintainer: No, it's all good. And it's a um, I think it's a really good segue into some questions I wanted to ask. So do you believe in prison-- excuse me, prison abolition? Leyva: That's a loaded question for me because I do, I believe that we have, there's a better way. I think there's really good alternatives to incarceration. And the only reason I am not one-hundred percent sold on abolition work is because we live in a society that has not dismantled patriarchy. And so, even like Feminist Thought Theory says we should shut down the prison system, or feminist abolition work, I love it. It's beautiful work. But if we don't teach men and women to dismantle patriarchy, how are we going to open up the doors to prison for men and for women? Cause they feed into it as well. Gender, like, I would say gender's super important. We can't open up a prison or, or dismantle the prison system where people haven't dismantled sexism, racism, classism, heterosexism. Right. These integral parts of patriarchy. Are we ready for that? I think that unfortunately I do, I've met people in prison who I've like, I hope I don't know, I hope you don't get out now, but I think everybody can be rehabilitated. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Leyva: I don't think we have a prison system that's doing a-- not even a halfway decent job. I wish we didn't have prison systems. I wish we had alternatives to incarceration because people do commit crimes and people commit heinous crimes. And I think that we have to be careful saying we want to abolish a prison system. I don't think we need a prison system at the magnitude that it is. You know, I don't think that there's 2.3 million people in the United States that are bad and dangerous people. I think that there's a small, maybe even less than five percent of that number that maybe should be in a facility of some sort, some rehabilitative community, some therapeutic community -- we don't have to call it a prison -- who need real help. Right. But I don't think we can abolish a prison system unless we dismantle patriarchy first. I don't think we can do it. And I've been there, I've lived inside the prison system. I've lived inside the jails, I lived inside the violence enough to know that if we abolish this system, especially coming from feminist theory, we're not ready for. Right. &lt ; shrugs&gt ; It's also a goal though. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: How do we begin to do the work on patriarchy to set people up so they can have a successful reentry. Right. So I'm not one-hundred percent sold on abolition, even though I do push a lot of abolitionist thought. You know, I mean, we have better, we can have better systems knowing what we know now. But I think we need to really focus on dismantling patriarchy before we open up the doors. Visintainer: Yeah. I think, you know, generally speaking, people have a hard time envisioning a world without a prison system, without police, you know, things like that. Without-- and I guess maybe the question that I want to ask in light of your answer to your last question is without patriarchy as well, people have trouble envisioning a world without that. Even if it's all around us and we don't even necessarily see it all the time, right. So what does a society without patriarchy look like? Leyva: I think it looks like-- I do often think about this. I think a, a society without patriarchy looks a little bit more empathetic and caring, a little bit more understanding, a little bit more -- very much actually -- community-based approaches to everyday things that happen. Arguments and fights and misunderstandings, miscommunications. Right. That if we-- I think patriarchy, there's a response to it. Right. Anger, yelling or violence or these gender roles, right. These gender roles of what women are supposed to do, what men are supposed to do. Gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans folks, all these folks, like all these people that live within our society. Elderly, young people, disabled, able-bodied, like the intersections of all those things, race, class, gender, ethnicity. That we need a world without patriarchy is an understanding that everybody here should be on the equal level playing field. And when something or somebody commits something against a group, right. This is the importance of restorative justice. This is the importance of conflict resolution, of alternative to violence, like all these great fields. I think that if we started teaching this stuff in literally preschool or pre-k[indergarten], first grade, second grade, third grade, all the way up has a curriculum that's based around feelings and emotions and understanding. I think we'll get to a generation someday who's less violent. Less violent, more empathetic, more caring, more-- sees the world completely different. Right. Maybe this is a big hope and dream of mine. Right. Maybe this is something that's maybe never gonna happen. But I always look at it as, you know, it's always worth the shot because what we have right now ain't working for shit, &lt ; laughs&gt ; you know what I mean? It's not working. And, you know, we gotta understand all the intersections of single parents or, or children growing up without parents or the foster care system or, you know, the world we live in with you know, sexual exploitation of young people and like a world that's a really harsh place. Right. But if we don't start teaching this stuff at a young age of how to really see each other, care about each other, you know, but I think that uh, but I do think, I think we can grow up in a world where there's less patriarchy or more defined like, you know, I'm not saying that being masculine or being-- there's something wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just our response to things doesn't have to be so like, harsh, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: We can have disagreements and a conversation after. We can have a disagreement and space apart from each other, then come back and talk about it. Like, we can still have our feelings and emotions, but we teach people how to dismantle their reaction. I think little by little a world without patriarchy is more caring, you know? And it doesn't have to be loving. Nobody has to love each other. Right. But we have to care about each other. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: We're in it together. Covid taught us that. &lt ; laughs&gt ; We're in it together. Right. So yeah. Visintainer: What's your future plans for Project Rebound? Or where would you like to see it head? Leyva: I think my future plan is the same future plan as a lot of the coordinators and directors across the state. But just to see it in every CSU. To see every incarcerated person have the access to associates degrees when they come home, they can, if they want, can come to a CSU and be successful and grow as an individual. I also would love to see Project Rebound here and other places. Cause we, every time we do somebody does something at their Project Rebound, we share the information. Right. I'd like to see it become a hub for not just students, but community members come get their records expunged, come and find jobs or resources, come get food. And what we say in the office is come in and shoot the shit. Let's come in and talk. Some people gotta get stuff off their chest and it's a hub where we just see each other and care about each other. Right. And right now, that's what we kind of have down there. We're just kind of building on it. It's a very small community. We want more community members that are students, but we want a bigger community of people around the university to say like, Project Rebound is supporting and helping us and that we're getting the help we need. Right. I think I see the, the work in the future for Project Rebound that it's just a place to come in and grow. Visintainer: Yeah. Leyva: Student or not, you know what I mean? And you know, and we get, I get this idea from students who are not formally incarcerated, but are system impacted. When a student comes into my office, or, and I'm not gonna say my office comes into the office and they say, "Oh, my dad's incarcerated and I don't know what to do." And we're sitting there, me or Lawrence or one of our formerly incarcerated students to sit there to talk to the student about what they're feeling, what they're going through. I see that as a community space to heal. Right. So that's where I see the future. It's just a place to grow and heal and be seen and cared for. Visintainer: Yeah. As you know, I spend some time working around the corner from you there and from my perspective you have a community there. I see a lot of engagement. I see a lot of students talking with you and it's pretty cool. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. It is really nice. Especially post-- pre-Covid. I mean, I was trying to, I was trying to sit there in little desks and do work and there'd be like ten people in that small space and I'm like, I gotta put some earphones on or something cause &lt ; laughs&gt ; yeah. I'm trying to get work done here. Right. It is, there is a community built there and it's nice to see it come back pretty quickly now that we're back on campus and yeah, I'm grateful for that space. Visintainer: Yeah. Is there anything I should have asked you that I didn't? Leyva: No. No. I think I really have appreciated this interview, this conversation. I wouldn't even call it an interview. It's a, it's a conversation because I think-- I know I'm super grateful for this opportunity to be in this academic space and this community around people that I love being around. And I mean, as a formerly incarcerated person, again, feel obligated to continue helping people because in a way I'm really helping myself. Do you know what I mean? Like, I, sometimes I feel like I'm overpaid. Like I can go home even though I take a lot of the stress home with me or the emotional labor home with me. But I also know that every day I'm putting my best foot forward and I'm doing the work. And that pays homage to Joe and Mitch and Squeaks and others. 'Cause I still remember the day I walked out of prison, the faces I left behind. Yeah. And this is my obligation to those men there. Not just the men, but all incarcerated people across this globe because incarceration is a global issue. You know, we just have the biggest one in the United States, but it is a global issue. Right. So, but I think question wise, or I think I'm good. Visintainer: All right. Well, I really appreciate your time and the conversation, so thank you very much. Leyva: You're welcome. Thank you. Visintainer: All right. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.xml LeyvaMartin_VisintainerSean_2022-10-27.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/archival_objects/22735 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Leyva, Martin. Interview October 27, 2022 Description An account of the resource Martin Leyva was the program coordinator from 2019-2023 for Project Rebound at California State University San Marcos, an on-campus support system for formerly incarcerated students which assists in their efforts to succeed in school and beyond. In his interview Leyva also discusses a similar program - the Transitions Program at Palomar and MiraCosta, colleges, and talks about his experience as a formerly incarcerated person and how his experience re-integrating into society and academia prompted his interest in Project Rebound, dismantling patriarchy, and supporting other members of the formerly incarcerated community. Leyva also discusses his experience with incarceration and post-incarceration life, especially in regards to prison employment and the prison-industrial complex, barriers experienced by prisoners upon release, and the mentorship that Leyva received from members of his fellow incarcerated community. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-19 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Project Rebound Formerly incarcerated individuals Imprisonment MiraCosta College. Transitions Program Palomar College. Transitions program Prison-industrial complex Santa Barbara City College. Transitions Program Transitions (Program) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-27 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Martin Leyva Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Santa Barbara (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Martin Leyva Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Anthony L. Jackson OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JacksonAnthony_VisintainerSean_2023-03-07_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Jackson, Anthony. Interview March 7, 2023. SC027-32 2:18:08 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM csusm California State University San Marcos ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; Military families ; Mormon Church ; Piracy -- Indian Ocean ; Racism ; United States. Marine Corps ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Houston (Tex.) ; Indian Ocean ; Oakland (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Stuttgart (Germany) ; United States. Africa Command. Anthony L. Jackson Sean Visintainer JacksonAnthony_VisintainerSean_2023-03-07_access.mp4 2.0:|72(14)|107(6)|150(11)|238(14)|318(10)|378(6)|429(9)|478(5)|513(6)|550(15)|599(3)|636(6)|675(8)|701(7)|744(6)|778(3)|837(7)|886(11)|920(15)|983(7)|1022(16)|1047(11)|1097(18)|1155(12)|1211(5)|1239(4)|1286(11)|1308(15)|1359(3)|1403(14)|1438(17)|1491(2)|1534(15)|1577(4)|1628(9)|1666(10)|1714(2)|1746(10)|1766(5)|1841(2)|1872(10)|1906(14)|1950(3)|1999(3)|2022(6)|2061(11)|2091(3)|2124(4)|2167(3)|2194(9)|2275(11)|2301(14)|2328(13)|2395(13)|2425(8)|2461(11)|2492(10)|2558(16)|2602(17)|2647(2)|2687(9)|2745(9)|2776(12)|2807(8)|2872(15)|2921(18)|2971(2)|3025(4)|3119(3)|3140(9) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/8e01398f12b5d84483867231d0d018cf.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Major General Anthony L. Jackson, March 7th, 2023, by Sean Visintainer, Head of Special Collections, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 43 Childhood and formative years Jackson describes his childhood, growing up in a military family that moved around the world, as well as his schooling, meals, and football recruitment. He also describes what life is like on military bases, and how he was fortunate to grow up at the time that he did, with opportunity provided by the sacrifices people made during the civil rights movement. civil rights movement ; Germany ; Hawaii ; Houston, Texas ; military base life ; military family ; Oakland, California 0 937 Father's military experience / Growing up in Houston and Fort Hood during the civil rights era Jackson speaks to his father's military experience and the challenges his father faced as a Black enlisted soldier, as well as his father's feelings on Jackson joining the Marine Corps. Jackson recalls the part of his childhood spent in Houston and nearby Fort Hood. He describes the segregated nature of the area, and participating in a sit-in at a local drug store. Jackson also recalls his sister's refusal to move to the back of the bus, fighting in high school and being picked on because of his accent, and speaks to his idea of equality vs. equity, using a metaphor for starting life with a backpack. enlisted Black soldier experience ; General Frank E. Petersen ; Houston, Texas ; racism 0 2290 Family deployments Jackson discusses his father's and brother's deployments, including why his brother was drafted to fight in Vietnam and his brother's medical evacuation to San Francisco. Butte College ; California State University Chico ; drafts and deferments ; Korean War ; Matt Jackson ; medical evacuations ; Vietnam War ; World War II 0 2515 Support systems for deployed soldiers Jackson discusses how support systems evolved in the armed services for deployed soldiers from his father experience to his own. Jackson discusses informal and formal structures and how military spouses play a role in supporting each other. Jackson also discusses the necessity of taking care of military families and how that impacts combat ability. Army ; Key Volunteer Program ; Marine Corps ; military spouses ; Navy ; Ombudsman Program 0 2987 Jackson's dating, marriage, and enlistment Jackson recounts meeting his wife, Sue, at San Jose State University and their courtship. Jackson describes interracial dating at the time and their family's reactions, and recall his ring-buying expedition which ended with a job. Jackson speaks to his work in the insurance industry, and decision to quit that job and enlist in the Marine Corps, and later to re-enlist. courtship ; enlistment ; interracial relationships ; Mike Anderson Agency ; Paul Barriger ; re-enlistment ; Sue Jackson ; U.S.S. Mayaguez ; Vietnam War 0 4116 Qualities of a successful Marine and a successful marriage Jackson describes the value of judgement and moral courage in making one a successful Marine. He discusses the value his older enlistment age gave him, and recruit training. Jackson also describes why he and Sue have a strong marriage. courage ; judgement ; marriage 0 4424 Working as the Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT [Marine Corps Forces Central Command] Jackson describes his work towards the end of his career, including as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT [Marine Corps Forces Central Command], where Jackson and his staff - especially civilian scientist Susan Alderson - were instrumental in getting MRAPs [mine resistant, ambush protected vehicles] to forces in Afghanistan and Iraq. MARCENT ; MRAPs ; Susan Alderson 0 5040 Working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, Africa Command [AFRICOM] Jackson recalls his work as the first Director of Military Operations and Logistics for the newly created United States Africa Command, and recalls in detail piracy around the Horn of Africa, and operations resulting from Somali pirates capturing of the U.S. cargo ship Maersk Alabama in 2009. AFRICOM ; Maersk Alabama ; piracy ; Somalia 0 5520 Returning to Camp Pendleton Jackson recounts a career fork where he could have gone back to Iraq to be a chief of staff, but instead ended up as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West). Jackson recounts his previous times at Camp Pendleton as a colonel and his family's decision to build a house in Fallbrook while Jackson was deployed to various places including Japan and Iraq. Jackson also recalls getting shelled while eating in a mess hall in Al Anbar Governate in Iraq. Camp Pendleton ; Fallbrook, California ; Marine Corps Installation West 0 6078 Jackson's relationship with CSUSM and work with California State Parks Jackson recalls returning to the area and getting acquainted with former university President Karen Haynes and joining the CSUSM Foundation's board. Jackson describes not desiring to work after his retirement from the military, and why he decided to go to work for California State Parks as their director. Jackson also discusses the similarity and differences between working in the military and parks, and discusses his decision to leave California State Parks. California State Parks ; CSUSM ; Jim Mickelson ; Karen Haynes 0 7203 Camp Pendleton and military bases Jackson discusses how Camp Pendleton specifically and military bases in general integrate with their surrounding communities. Jackson also discusses how federal aid and military projects have an effect on the surrounding community. Jackson recounts a negative experience with an invitation to speak at his high school alma mater where he was asked not to wear his uniform. base-community relationships ; Camp Pendleton ; Economic Recovery Act ; federal aid ; prejudice towards servicemen 0 7757 Family history Jackson shows a family history album that his wife, Sue, created, and discusses his family tree, his father's prize fighting career, his grandparents, siblings and extended family. Jackson recounts his mother's side of the family history and their ancestor Green Flake, who was an enslaved man who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Jackson speaks to the presence Green Flake has left in history. boxing ; Brigham Young ; enslaved peoples ; family history ; Green Flake ; Jackson family ; monuments ; Mormonism ; Salt Lake City 0 Moving image Major General Anthony L. Jackson retired from the United States Marine Corps on January 1st, 2011, after more than thirty-six years of service. After retiring form the Marine Corps, he served as the Director, California State Parks and Recreation from November 2012 through June, 2014. Major General Jackson has also served as the Chairman of the California State University, San Marcos, Foundation Board of Directors.&#13 ; &#13 ; In his interview, Jackson discusses his upbringing in a military family, including participating in a sit-in in a local drug store, and offers a comparison between his military service and that of his father, who served in the United States Army. Jackson discusses life on military bases and support systems for deployed soldiers. Jackson recounts the courtship of his future wife, Sue, their early relationship, and the experience of being in an interracial relationship in the 1970s. Jackson discusses his later career with the Marines, including serving as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT, where he helped make the case for the military to purchase Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs) during the second Iraq war, and working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, AFRICOM. Jackson also discusses finishing his military career by returning to Camp Pendleton and other western U.S. bases as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West).&#13 ; &#13 ; Jackson also discusses his time working for California State Parks, his relationship with Cal State San Marcos, and his family lineage, which includes the enslaved wagon driver Green Flash, who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Sean Visintainer: Hello, this is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Major General Anthony Jackson for the California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History initiative. Today is March 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Major General Jackson, thank you for interviewing with us today. Anthony Jackson: Yeah, you're welcome. It's a, it's a privilege, kind of a, an honor, I guess I should say. Visintainer: These are, uh, the favorite part of my job that I get to do. So it's a real pleasure to have you. I forgot to mention that I will take some notes as we're interviewing, just so you know. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: So I can circle back to questions if I have them. Jackson: All right. Visintainer: Uh, things like that. And I wanted to just start off by asking you about your childhood and your formative years. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: Um, where were you born? Jackson: I was born at Madigan General Hospital in Fort Lewis, Washington. My father was a career soldier. So I was the fourth of his children. Uh, let's see. And being a military brat, you grow up in a lot of different places. But, uh, yeah, my dad, uh, he lied about his age and lied about his parentage to join the army shortly after Pearl Harbor. He met his, my mother in, May of [19]42, and married her in June of the same year. And then he went overseas to Europe for, for three years. In those days they went for the duration and came home to see my, uh, oldest sister was three years old when he got home. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And then, my older brother was born in [19]46, and then Matt, and then Don was born in [19]48, and then I was born in [19]49, and the Korean War broke out so my mother got a break. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And dad came home in [19]52, and Clay was born in [19]53. And then Dana was born in, uh, [19]56, and Tawnya was born in [19]57. I guess they're Irish twins. And that was the last of the kids. But if you notice, I was seven. The girls, Betty is the oldest, and Tanya the youngest. And then there's five boys, and I'm the top dead-center. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, and, uh, highly competitive sports-oriented family with the boys. And, uh, I guess I should say that the main thing in that growing up was, I was kind of taking notes and reviewing my own life a couple weeks ago ; that I started school in Germany, did kindergarten and first grade in Germany, and then my dad got stationed in Los Angeles. So I, uh, spent the second grade in Los Angeles. Then I spent the third grade-- He got sent someplace else, spent the third grade in Houston, Texas, his hometown. And then I spent four through the seventh grade in Colorado at two different schools. And then back to Texas for the eighth. And then in the middle of the ninth grade, a couple months into the ninth grade, we moved to California in 1963 as uh, and all my teachers in Texas were excited. I was going to such a great state for academics. And so I got here in October [19]63 as a ninth grader, as the brand new kid talking funny, dressing, funny and-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Fighting my way through the ninth grade. But, so I was fortunate to go to high school in Oakland. You know that they have three-year high school. So all my high school years, I was the first of my brothers and sisters. If you'll see those days, you'll see that they got ripped off and didn't go to one single high school, my older one. So I was the first one that kind of got planted at one place. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then, um, and that was really good because counselors and everybody started prepping me for college. Uh, Mrs. [Phyllis] Collier wouldn't let me go. She constantly -- she was my counselor -- constantly tried to get me into college prep classes, which she did, and make me take the SATs. You're not going to the state wrestling finals unless you take the SATs. And, uh, and that was a good experience. Yeah. Football became my, uh, my great love of sports, although played a lot of baseball, basketball, and all those kinds of things, wrestled in high school. But I got a football scholarship, offered several scholarships. I was lucky to be... I was born at exactly the right time. You know, the high, the civil rights movement, the, all the sacrifices of so many people during the Civil Rights Movement. When I graduated from high school in 1967, universities were looking for me in terms of race, in terms of athleticism, in terms of grades and SATs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I just happened to be born at that exact right juncture of the civil rights movement and who could get that young African American into the university. But I took a football scholarship, because I knew that was just based on pure athleticism or whatever. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: But it was still important. That was, the doors were opening wide, and I just happened to be the right age, born at right time as well. So that was my kind of through high school, uh, living in a lot of different places. Three years in Germany, four years in Colorado, off and on in Texas. And so, um, with mom and dad always providing a good solid family basis, and my mother was incredibly, like, I still look back and, you know here I was a high-ranking officer, [inaudible] and having two kids was expensive. Here my dad was a sergeant in the army, not an officer. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And he, and somehow she managed to put together great meals that we were all healthy and athletic and all that. And I still wonder how she did it. It was pretty-- she was pretty fantastic. She sewed our clothes and did all kinds of things that, you know sometimes I see the kids walking around here with patches and torn jeans and all that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That would've been so embarrassing for my family. &lt ; laughter&gt ; We were, we were poor, you know, and here these kids, I guess middle class kids that, that wanted to look like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: We would've been totally embarrassed. And mom would sew up those torn spots. Visintainer: You said she was, uh, she managed to make great meals for everybody in your family. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: I was curious, is there a, is there a, a particular meal or food that really evokes memories of your childhood? Jackson: I would say that we ate a lot of cooked cereal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, things like cornmeal and oatmeal and grits and yeah. And, um, it was because it was inexpensive and filled with nutrition. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I presume and it filled you up, you know? And so, uh, yeah. And you never turned your back on your plate. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Spaghetti and meatballs, you turn your back. One of those meatballs was gonna be missing you know. I mean, you never missed dinner. You never missed a meal. You were always home. You didn't wear a watch. You didn't have a watch, but you knew what dinnertime was. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And you knew, you knew that, uh, you know, to be home for dinner. Um, so my mother was a, just a great cook. And, uh, and I just remember that there was always a meal, uh, sometimes they were pretty creative. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Like, she would make syrup out of, uh, out of sugar and water, and she'd just melt it down. And that would be the syrup for your pancakes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, she didn't, orange juice, you know, if the can said "mix three cans of water with this," she'd probably mix four, four or five you know, stretching things out. She could do that. But, uh... Man, she-- Yeah, you would never turn down one of her meals. I would just say that, uh, everything she cooked was worthy of eating. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Except turnips. Visintainer: So that was the, that was the vegetable. That was-- Jackson: Yeah, that was the one. I mean I liked all the other green vegetables and stuff like that. But I never really, I was kind of amazed when I was being recruited. I was being recruited to play football at UC [University of California] Berkeley. And, um, they brought me into the Bear's Lair, Bear's Lair, their kind of campus restaurant. And they put a salad in front of me, a green salad with just lettuce-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I said, what &lt ; laughs&gt ; , what am I supposed to do with this? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Because I'd never had a lettuce salad that I could ever have recalled. So I had to watch, uh what the coaches who were recruiting me were doing with that 'cause our meals were substantial. And [inaudible] they were designed to fill you up, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: As a kid more than anything. Yeah. Visintainer: Did, uh, did you live on bases? Jackson: Yeah. We s-- you know, um... We, we, we lived on and off base. The military, it wasn't until my time in the military, the military used to be when you got stationed overseas, families had to move off the base housing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And it was in my times in, I think in the, uh, I want to say in the 1980s, that even though your, uh, spouse was overseas, you could stay on base, uh, at least in the Marine Corps. But we lived, um, sometimes we'd stay a while with relatives. But my mother was from Salt Lake City, Utah. And so we would sometimes stage there for a couple months before we went overseas or before we went to California or something like that. And, but, let's see, on-- in Germany, yeah, all that time was on military base. Colorado was four years on military base. Oakland, the first couple of years we lived on a military base, but my dad also kept a little home in Houston, Texas. And a couple of times we would move into that house. And uh, but when he retired from the Army when I was a senior in high school, he bought a home in Oakland. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: And that was my senior year so that was the first year I had moved up in the pecking order to get a bedroom by myself. 'Cause we usually lived in a three-bedroom house, one [bedroom] for mom and dad, one for the two girls and then the last one, was either for my older brother, if it was small. And we, like in Colorado the older brother had a room, and then the four younger ones slept in the basement. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: In bunk beds, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then finally when I was a senior, I got a room to myself for a few months when, you know, so, um--But we settled, the family settled in Oakland. And that's where my mother and father lived until they passed away. And, uh, they-- so it was, uh, the military bases are sort of protected in some ways from-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: A little bit different than society, you know. And then even as I went through my career, we stayed on bases sometimes. Not always. Visintainer: Uh, you said that the military bases are protected and different from society. Jackson: Yeah. Its-- They're, they're a little bit different-- Visintainer: Could you explain-- Jackson: Because first of all, I'll never forget, like when we were stationed in Hawaii, and my kids were like six months old when we got there, and two years old. So they were pretty young. But by the time they were there, we were there for a year or two. The military police knew where your kids belong. They knew what house. If they saw your kid running amuck someplace, "Yeah, maybe you had to go back to your yard," you know, because-- And so from that standpoint, and military police are a different sort of presence. They're more like the old neighborhood police officers. They're Marines essentially. And now they have some civilians that do that on military bases. The other thing is: all your neighbors, you're all in the same boat. You know, you're gonna say, although, you know, you have sometimes segregated housing based on rank. Um, um, and they [military bases] have their elementary school, they have their grocery stores. They have their equivalent of a Walmart or 7-Eleven. They have their gas stations, their fire department, the hospital. So you have a city, literally, or maybe even several towns, like as big as Camp Pendleton is, there are several schools in like the northern part. Once you get to high school, uh, and junior high, you go to San Clemente Public Schools. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: On the, on the eastern side, where I lived on the base, or southeastern side, you go to Fallbrook schools and on the south side of the base, you go to Ocean-- your kids go to Oceanside schools. So, uh, but, um, everybody's employed, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: There is a hierarchy, you know. If you're-- That is respected. Kids stop when they're hearing the national anthem is being played every morning at eight o'clock. If they're at the playground in the morning at eight o'clock, or when the flag's coming down in the evening at sunset, they'll stop. And you'll see kindergarteners stand in position of attention, while getting off the swings and the teeter-totter or whatever they call them now. And uh, it's kind of unique. Even my Great Dane used to know to stop and sit when the national anthem was being played, you know, just-- So it's a, and race is erased. Mostly. I mean we're all a product of American society. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Um, um, and it's more, I would say it's more of a meritocracy in terms of what you experience and how you experience, and your rank and your uniform automatically entitles you to X amount of respect. And everybody rec-- and that includes the general has to respect the most junior person, you know. And so uh, you're somewhat protected and there's rules that are, that are pretty strict, you know? And even the, even the nurses in the emergency room got to know my sons. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "Hey, Brian, what are you in here for this time?" You know. He's a skateboarder. Bashed his skull, skinned his face, you know, all of that stuff. And they know him. "Uh, okay. You're a Jackson kid. All right. Okay." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Do you, do you think that that experience was similar for your father? Jackson: No my dad, he lived a whole different world. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's one of the stage setters. When he, when he was 17 years old, trying to get into the military in 1942, Marines didn't accept Blacks into the military. It wasn't until a year later, you know. And he lived in Texas, you know, grew up in Texas. And in his youth and for a long time, even through a portion of my youth, Texas was one of the most violent places to be African American. I mean I had a, I had one of my Marines, a master gunnery sergeant, a very senior enlisted Marine, who was my senior enlisted advisor. And he's a Texan, African American. And his father was lynched in Texas. And so what's your, um-- You know, so there's, there's, there's only a generation or two that separates you from that kind of conduct. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And when my dad joined the Army, it was segregated. Matter of fact, he was stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City, 'cause that's where one of the last of the Buffalo Soldiers were stationed at, at, at, um, even at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century, the Buffalo Soldiers had been stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City. And so when they started bringing in African Americans into the US Army for World War II, that became a place where they trained. And so they didn't have a USO [United Service Organization], they had a USO for white soldiers, but they didn't even have a USO for Black soldiers. So in creating a USO for Black soldiers, now they recruited my mother, you know, to be one of the hostesses. And that's how they met. And within two weeks they were married. Geez. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they stayed married, you know. Um, so. And dad, I am sure when I see, you know, I think he was extraordinarily smart, extraordinarily clever. And you had to be more clever to survive, I think, in those days, because there were a lot of racial booby traps that you could walk into. And I think that, um, I don't know all of the history of that, but he should have been, with the number of years he spent in, 24 years, he should have been a higher rank in most circumstances. And I won't recall what the family's story is as to why, but I have pictures of him at a higher rank. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then he retired at another rank, lowered, 10 years later, you know. So he was, so there was an incident that occurred, I think, with my older brother, Matt. And he was, an officer had bumped him on his bicycle and knocked him to the ground and knocked a tooth out, and when my dad was called to the scene, this is more family lore, the officer used the N-word in referring to my, my brother. And the officer was white, and my dad reflexively hit him. And he was a master sergeant at the time. And, uh, this was when we lived in Germany. And my dad was a prize fighter too. He was really good. At one time he was, uh, rated in the world and he was an alternate on the 1948 Olympic team as a light heavyweight. And, um, and so, uh... But the army liked him enough to keep him, but they had to do something. And so he became reduced in rank by one and then permanently put in that rank. Jackson: And he stayed in that rank for another, I want to say twelve years, which is not normal. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Even today or yesteryear, that wouldn't have been normal. So they liked him, but they [inaudible]. So he paid a price that I could-- I didn't pay. And when I joined the Marine Corps, I'll never forget what him saying, "Why did you want to join that redneck outfit?" Because remember, in [19]42, they wouldn't take, they took a lot of, and it was [19]43, they had their first [Black] officer, they had their first [Black] pilot in about 1950, first general African American in 1981, Frank Petersen. So it's uh, it was kind of a, you know, my, my my answer to him was, if not me, who? Somebody has to be. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I was not the first but I was one of the few at the time that came in. And General Petersen leading the way, of course. But yeah, dad had a different life. Mom had a different life. She, I mean education, that was the key difference. You know, is that I was fortunate my mother and father were both high school grads and both of them believed in the power of education. So that was, I think it was really vital to the development of all of us. And then coming to California, which when I came here, it was the number one best school system, public school system in the nation. And I don't know-- If I understand, it doesn't rank very high now, but when I came here, the, you know, from the high school to the community colleges, to the state colleges and state universities, uh, it couldn't be better. So another lucky break for Tony Jackson. Visintainer: Yeah. Um, you mentioned your dad grew up in Texas. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And he had kept a house there for quite a while. Jackson: Right. Visintainer: Was he particularly, uh, happy when he got stationed in Houston? Jackson: You know, that's something that I would've been too young. He was, he wasn't stationed in Houston. He was stationed in another-- at, uh, Fort Hood, which is outside [Houston]. I don't think that-- he never expressed that. And I was too young if he, if he emoted it to my mother, you know? That was, that would've been grown-up talk back in those days. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But Houston was segregated. It was, the schools were segregated. It was kind of ironic because I'd lived on army bases. I'd done most of my-- Up until the time we moved to Texas, when I was in the third grade, I did kindergarten, first grade in Germany at integrated school, at the military school on base. And then we came out to California. But that was a short stay. But I did second grade in integrated schools. Then all of a sudden, in third grade, I'm in this town and the part of town where dad had a house, everybody's Black, the policeman's Black, the pharm is Black, the teachers and principals, they're all Black. And that was the first, you know, uh, 1958. And, uh, it was, uh, it was very interesting. Corporal punishment. That's the first time I met that one too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Where the teachers could paddle you? Yeah. You, they, they, they still did that. I remember getting my hand paddled because my writing was so poor. Um, but, um... So we moved there [Houston] because he did not want us probably to live in the part of Texas where that base was, and close to relatives. He had a, uh, his, his half-sister lived there, the aunt that helped raise him lived in Houston. And so, and his father lived in Houston. And so, uh, we lived there just a half mile or so from his sister and my aunt, Juanita. And so, uh... And he never gave any indication that he wanted, um, wanted to live there permanently in Houston. You know, I mean, the movie theaters, in those days, you had to sit in the balcony, even the beaches were s-- you know, they had a rope. This was for white people. This was for Black people. Don't cross the rope. The drinking. I remember as a 13 year-old doing a sit-in, in the eighth grade, when we moved back there the second time, the civil rights movement was pretty churned up. And young people, high school, college were doing sit-ins at, uh, at the drug stores that didn't allow you to sit at the soda fountains. You might be able to buy something there, but don't sit down at the counter. And I remember myself from a couple of my eighth and ninth grade buddies, we decided, we were waiting for a bus, and we wanted a RC Cola and a moon pie. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And we walked into the local drugstore to buy 'em, and we decided we were gonna sit at the lunch counter, like all these kids were doing around the nation. So we did our little sit-in, and they, this big old guy comes out from somewhere in the warehouse, and he's pounding on a billy club, like, "Hmm, what are you kids doing?" But he didn't say anything to us, just the, the waitress behind the counter. She was very nervous trying to get us to get up. And we looked over and saw him and just waved. And then our bus came and we walked out. But it was our little, that was our little act of defiance. And every now and then, you'd have to say if not me who? And so we sat at a lunch counter for a while, you know. Visintainer: So I had seen it in another interview. You'd referenced this, uh, lunch counter sit-in. Uh, didn't go into detail. And so I wanted to ask you a few questions about it. So it was, uh, it was totally spontaneous? You were-- Jackson: Yeah. It was spontaneous. We, it was, it was in the news. People were doing it in Virginia, in Memphis, and, you know, and it was a, you knew there was a kind of a hazard you could end up, you know, uh... in jail or something, you know. But we just, I think there's been a couple of times where I've been involved in civil rights protests, but where you just have to do something, you know. I mean, I mean, you just-- I watched my older sister, probably one of the greatest acts of defiance that I've ever seen: my older sister, Betty, she's 80 years old yesterday, and she's just as tough as she was when she was. But I was riding a bus with her in Houston, and this was in the fifties too, so it had to be about [19]58. And we were riding across town, heading home, and we, we sat right in front of the bus. Whether she was thinking, you know... You got to, she's, she's a pretty feisty little-- and then she would've only been about 13 or 14, and I would've been third grade. And, so we sat in the front of the bus, and the bus driver stopped, and the bus was crowded, and he wanted-- bus driver stopped and came out, told her she had to get up, go back of the bus and let these white people sit down. And I'm like, "Hmm." I'm only nine years old. So I'm like, hmm, this big old guy is. And then she refused to move. And, um... And then he balled up his fist and he threatened her, and she refused to move. And, uh, and she just sat there, and then he had to go drive that bus, and he left her alone the rest of the ride. She never budged. Visintainer: That's very courageous. Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the way she is. And so you, you know, I've seen, and, you know you grew up with those pictures on tv, the Birmingham and all that stuff, and Little Rock and, bombings and kids with-- and so you knew that there was this tension. But like I tell people, and I gave a speech the other day for Black History. I was always a person that took literally the words of the, the, the preamble to the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Gettysburg Address. And I remember I had to memorize the preamble in the Gettysburg Address and the first couple of paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence when I was in segregated schools in Houston, Texas, in the ninth grade. And I took those words literally. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I looked at my dad's service, and he had obviously paid a, you know, paid for his citizenship, wearing that uniform for 24 years. And so I always have had the feeling and, uh, that, "Hey, if you're, if you're better than me, that means you can whip me in the football field or wrestling, or you can beat me on the spelling bee or the math bee or something like that. But you don't automatically get that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That's not an automatic. I walk through the door like you walk through the door, and then we'll see how it goes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, and I guess that's, I even, uh, even in my own career, I kept that same kind of attitude. And you know, and I've got deep roots that in terms of where my family comes from, especially on my mother's side. My wife does these great genealogies. And, I actually book brought the book that she has kind of put together. Rather than just a photo album, she puts together genealogical albums, and they're kind of cool. Visintainer: Nice. Jackson: I'll show you at some point if you want to see it. Visintainer: Yeah, I'd love to. Jackson: Yeah. But, so, but, you know. One of the things I do tell people, sometimes younger people is that, we like to say that we're all born equal. And that's a kind of an idealistic sort of thing. But if your mother was a drug addict and you were born addicted, you're not the same as the guy who's like, my kids, you know, their dad was already an officer, and already was financially stable, their mother was healthy, a registered dietician, and what she did during her pregnancy is very different than what this-- And so the kids start out equal in terms of under whatever your religion is, under your god's eye, maybe they're equal, but in terms of what the world's offering 'em right now, real different. Okay. And so things like race-- and so I say, "Everybody's born with a backpack, and in that backpack is X amount of rocks." And it's a little bit different, what the weight is at birth. Now, as you go through life, you can take out a rock or you can add a rock. Some of 'em are based on choices of, of your own choice. And some of 'em are based on family choices or just accidents. And race is one of those things that can either be, um, a rock, a heavy rock in your pack. Or it can lighten your load. And that's one of the ironic things about it is for my dad, it was probably a heavier rock, but for me, it lightened the load. It might have actually lightened the load, you know? And so as we-- As you-- And so as a result of that, his carrying a heavy rock and me having much lighter load, I owe him something. But more than that, I owe the next generation something too for that. And, you know, does that make sense? Visintainer: Yeah, that's a wonderful analogy. And something I've never heard phrased that way. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I think it's, it's uh, befitting somebody who was in the military to talk about weight and backpacks. Jackson: Yeah, right, yeah. I guess, so. Visintainer: Did you come up with the analogy when you were in the military,?Jackson: Yeah. Yeah, probably. I did. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. I was in you know, it is, uh, it's -- life is like that. Now, and you, and a lot of times, and once you get to be a certain age, and I was telling this young man that I met, he was very bold. He was in the high school, junior ROTC [Reserve Officers Training Corps] at an event a month or so ago, and he walks right up to me having, I was introduced as a general. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And here's this, you know, maybe 14 year-old kid. He was in the ninth grade. And I said, "You know what?" I said, uh, I asked him about his grades and all that. I said kind of, "You're lightening your load. You're an honor student. You wear that uniform well. You're doing athletics, keep doing that. Everything you do, it counts from the ninth grade on. I mean, that's when you're getting your GPA counts, you getting your PSATs, you're doing all these kinds of things that people are gonna judge your next opportunity on -- post high school." And says, "So, you young man are lightening your load, you know, so keep it going." Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Yeah. So it is kind of a, yeah. I guess it's military speak. Can't help it. Visintainer: Yeah. Um, I just had one follow up question about, uh, about your drugstore sit-in. Well, actually, I guess I had a couple. What was the drugstore? Jackson: You know, I'm trying to remember the, because I don't want to-- we had a lot of Walgreens in that part of the country. So I think it was Walgreens at the time, that, uh, it was right at our bus stop. And, uh, yeah. Then they, they became quite a target for students, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's a, nowadays they don't even have the soda fountains in the drugstore like they did in those days, you know? But yeah, I'm pretty, I'm about 90% sure it was Walgreens. Because number one, because I don't remember any other of the drug stores that were there. And it was, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But-- Visintainer: Did, uh, did you ever tell your parents? Jackson: Yeah. Well, at that time, dad was someplace else. I think dad was stationed in close to the North Pole in Greenland. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Yeah. And so we were in Houston for that stay. And, um... And I probably told my mother. When I was that [inaudible] age... I really, it was hard for me to imagine living beyond eighteen. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We lived in Houston. You know, we lived-- we were bused to school past the white high school and junior high into what you might call the ghetto. Fifth Ward in Houston. And it was nicknamed "Bloody Fifth" for good reason, because somebody was getting killed kind of routinely. It was a very violent part of Houston, Texas. And, uh, my junior high and eighth and ninth grade was in Fifth Ward. And my older brothers and sister, they went to Phyllis Wheatley [High School]. I went to E.O. Smith [Junior High] which was named after a African American poet. And, I was probably in a fight, like... I mean, here I was this guy that didn't have an accent. And I was marked, even my teacher, I remember my English teacher mocking my, uh, "trying to talk like a Kennedy," she told me. She told the whole class, 'cause I was reading something and she stopped me. And she, "What are you trying to talk like a Kennedy?" I said, "This is the way we talk in my family." I didn't know this was any different, but yeah, coming to the south, you're talking different and you don't have their accent. And, uh, and so I was kind of a prime target for a while. And yeah. And fortunately I played football and you know, and I had two big bad older brothers. And so, but it was like-- you know, you had to fight. And then right in the middle of ninth grade, I moved to Oakland. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Which hardly is just that much better. But that was only two fights. So that was quick and easy. And fortunately we were all trained to box and stuff like that, so it turned out all right. But really when I was fourteen, fifteen, I thought eighteen would be, "Yeah. Eighteen's about right." You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so you, you, you were already, you know, so when I say I'm seventy-three, you know, I'm a happy camper. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: Exceeded expectations. Yeah. Visintainer: Um, I was curious about when your, when your father was deployed, you said he was deployed to Korea and was he deployed in World War II? Jackson: He was in World War II, but I was not even born, and so the war, he wasn't deployed. He had seven kids by the time Vietnam, so the Army wouldn't send him. You know, that would've been quite a burden. So he did not, well, he served during the Vietnam War in the early stages, he never deployed to Vietnam. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: The family member that got deployed to Vietnam was my older brother, Matt. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: He was, he was drafted. Uh, and yeah, the way it worked out was that my older sister had graduated from high school. I ended up being the first one to graduate from college, just 'cause my older sister, it wasn't the norm or the expectation. And she had gotten married and had a kid, so, and she's probably as smart or smarter than every one of us. And then Matt, my older brother, there wasn't the financials in the family and he had gone to four. Different. High schools. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Every year. And so, although he's a better athlete than I ever was, he was never recognized in one spot, scouted out by universities or anything. So he ended up going to Chico State [California State University, Chico] a year later on an English literature scholarship. Um, and because he was a year behind his peers, he didn't have the college credits necessary to avoid the draft. And so he got drafted. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And then he goes in the army, goes to Vietnam and gets really some disease and maybe even Agent Orange. Uh, he-- affected him very badly over there. And so he was medically evacuated from Vietnam to San Francisco. There was a big army hospital in San Francisco and eventually discharged, got his GI bill, went back to college, got his B.A., Got his master's degree, and became a dean of students up at Butte [California] Community College. So he lived a really good life. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Great kids, two outstanding kids. And then a terrific wife, Billie. Billie passed away a couple years ago, but she's just been selected, gonna have a big induction ceremony through the Chico State Hall of Fame. And so she, and here's his daughter is the CEO, Joy is the CEO. It's not the GRE but there's another graduate record thing, you know, and so Matt did well, so. Don, my older brother, short time in the Air Force, booted him out for whatever he did wrong, you know, but I'm the only one that made it a career [inaudible]. So, uh, um, yeah. But, but mom was always that glue. Just like my wife Sue is the glue for my boys and who did most of the child raising. I had this big strong boxer-soldier dad that I really looked up to and was my lifetime hero. But mom was actually doing the hard work. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And probably the same thing in my family in terms of, you know, dad's a Marine and a officer and doing his thing and going away and, and, but the military spouses who get left behind, they do a lot of the child raising, set the standards. And so when people say thank you for your service, they really ought to be talking to the spouses. Visintainer: Well, and that's something I was kind of curious about in that, when, when somebody's deployed, and if there's, I guess this is kind of a complicated question that I'm formulating as I go along, so I apologize if it gets a little jumbled, but when somebody's deployed, like in your father's time, um, were there support services involved with the Army to help out, to help out the parents that were staying and raising children? Or were they more informal in nature? Jackson: They were very, very, very informal. Not, and I, quite frankly, I can't-- I can't say I have memories of during my father and mother's time that they had the support services which are ingrained in the services now. And even when I came in, to be honest, in [19]75, the military's attitude, the Marine Corps' attitude was probably, well if the, if the Marine Corps wanted you to have a, wanted you to have a spouse they'd have put her in your, in your sea bag when they issued you the gear. Was that in there? Okay. And that was probably the attitude. It wasn't until the eighties that the Navy and the Marine Corps, and I'm not quite sure when the Army, but I'm sure about the same time with them, we started putting together really substantial programs. And first it, it revolved around volunteers and-- but organized in what they call the Key Volunteer Program. And in the Navy it was the Ombudsman Program. And, and, and that, and that was in the eighties. And in, in the, in the, um, 2000s, as we were getting more involved in the Middle East, they actually started hiring family counselors, Members that take, they literally took the place, for each battalion, they would have professional kind of family counselors. And so, and they still had the Key Volunteers, but then they paid people and they had, uh, it was presumed prior to that, that the wives, an officer's wife, the senior officer's wife, would take the lead whether she was-- wanted to or not. It was, it was presumed that that would happen or the senior enlisted wife would team up with her and they would take care of all the younger ones and all that. And there were just some women who were not, you know, not that social or did not want to do that, or were-- wasn't in their personality. So there was a lot. When I was a young commanding officer, a company, I knew if I was over in the Far East in Japan or something and with my whole company and Corporal Ramos' wife was about ready to have a baby here at Camp Pendleton I'd call my wife, buy some flowers for Corporal Ramos' wife, put his name on 'em and take 'em over to the base hospital and make sure she knows that he's thinking about her. And my wife was willing to do that, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so, and I would willingly pay for it out of my pocket too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Uh, but it, it, it's, it is now much more formal and it's expected and it's expected in the military, and now you have a lot of, we probably have more daycare centers per capita than the, than regular society, you know? There's, I forget, there's a half a dozen or more daycare centers on Camp Pendleton. Miramar has theirs all the bases and have the childcare centers. And so I think that there's much more, the military has taken a, uh, realize happy wife, happy spouse. You're more likely to have a career, [inaudible] soldier, sailor, marine. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You're taking care of the family too. Visintainer: It makes sense in terms of retention and morale and all of that, yeah. Jackson: All of that. You know, one of the things I found is it translates in many ways to combat power. You know that no matter what happens to you, that your family's gonna be taken care of and you're gonna be taken care of. And so that's, that gives you strength, that gives every marine, every soldier, every sailor, that kind of strength. You know that I saw in other foreign armies that you got wounded and you're not killed you, you [shakes head]. So their soldiers weren't as aggressive. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Uh, they didn't have the same initiative to, you know, and it is not because they were less, you know, a man or less brave. It's just that they had that, well, there's no VA [Veteran's Administration], there's no, there's no widow's pension. There's no, you know. And so he's gotta be a little bit more careful, you know? So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It does equate to the combat power. Visintainer: I's a, it's a rock in your pack perhaps. Jackson: Yeah. In terms of success for the mission that you're about ready to accomplish. Visintainer: Yeah. Okay. Um, excuse me, you mentioned the Key Volunteer Program and so I, so I understand like the, you know, the purpose of a counselor or the purpose of a daycare-- Jackson: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: But I was curious as to what the Key Volunteer Program, like what their purpose was, what types of activities they undertook, and as a support-- Jackson: I, I think the main focus was to make sure if the families had a need, that it was taken care of while the service member was overseas. And a lot of times the wives would organize parties and picnics for the kids and, uh, things like that. Or they would exchange phone numbers so that you knew who to call in case of, you know, there's a rattlesnake in the garage the day after your husband left, you know, the car broke down the day after your husband left. Um, uh, so, but the whole idea of the Key Volunteer Program was to make sure that the families knew where to go when they needed support, when the spouse was deployed overseas. Uh, and, uh, and they were literally volunteer in the most part. In the early days, you didn't get guys, it was mostly the wives, but now we have more you know, the, the... The military member may be the, the, the, the, the woman and the man is now the spouse that needs help when-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you. And so that was the whole point of the, um, the Key Volunteer Program: to bring them together, they knew there was a tight-knit family that would help take care of-- It was kind of like, uh, East Battalion had its own village, you know? And the village was designed to take care of, of all of the people that were left behind. Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So yeah, Visintainer: That's, that's pretty interesting. I'd never, never heard of this, uh, program before. Jackson: Yeah. It's a, it's a really good program. They professionalized the lead person at the battalion in about two thousand and three. A battalion's about a thousand Marines. Like on Camp Pendleton you have battalions and squadrons. Squadrons is the aviation equivalent of a battalion. And they would all have a senior lady, and they put, they actually had paid people do that. I think they're maybe toning that down a little bit with no war, but they still have the program. Uh, um, and, uh, yeah. Visintainer: Excuse me. Um, let's talk about how you decided to enlist. So I understand you were, you were graduated with a master's [degree] at this point. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: You were working and-- Jackson: Well, let's see. I got married. Sue and I got married. We met at San Jose State [University]. Um, I had always aspired to be an officer. I thought I'd join the Army when I-- I was in ROTC just for a short while, at San Jose State in Army ROTC. And, it didn't sit well with all the other things that I was doing. But I still aspired to be an officer. Okay. I met my wife in an anatomy and physiology class in Spring of 1969. And, um, and it was a night class, so I would just walk her back to her sorority and I'd go down the street to my dorm. It was just a matter of safety and coming out of class after nine o'clock in an urban environment. And, and that was it. We didn't date or anything. I would just escort her. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, football player escorting pretty sorority girl home. And she's only two blocks from, or three blocks from where I was staying in the dorm. But the next fall, we were on campus and I met her on campus, just kind of bumped into each other again, not thinking much of that previous spring. And she said she had moved outta the sorority house, "come on over." So, mm-- you know, I was a little reluctant, you know, uh, blonde blue-eyed. And those days I wasn't dating blonde, blue-eyed gals. So I recruited a couple more football players, Black, to come over and visit her and her friends, just so it would be-- And uh, son of a gun if the three football players and her three roommates all left and went to a party! So there we were, you know, and, uh, we studied together and then we got to start getting together on Thursday nights just to study. My grades shot up which was really good. And she was a home ec[onomics] major, and so she'd experiment with foods with me and being a football player, I could take all the calories she could pump out, you know. So I'd get an extra meal every day, &lt ; laughs&gt ; kind of, every Thursday, when we'd get together. And then finally by the end of that semester, or close to it, I said, "Are we an item?" You know? And we decided that we were an item. So 1970 rolls around, and we, we decide to get permission from her side of the family. My side of the family reluctantly accepted the interracial dating, my dad being a Texan, that, that, you know, he had bad memories of that stuff. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And, uh, my mother was, she loved everybody no matter what. But her [Sue's] parents weren't real happy. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So the explosion went off and which actually drove us tighter together. We just wanted to date openly. Um, I often say that we had gone to see the movie, Guess Who's Coming To Dinner with Sidney Poitier... And, uh. And when her parents found out about it, and I suddenly realized I was not Sidney Poitier. It wasn't gonna work out. But that sort of drove us together. And within, uh, four or five months, I just asked her to marry me. And, uh, because her family disowned her for the very fact that we'd gotten-- we were wanting to date. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they didn't want her to date. And I had never told her I loved her. Visintainer: Yeah. Wow. Jackson: We just wanted to date openly. And so... We uh, as the, as the, her world crowded in on her to try to break us up, it forced us together and me to be more defensive of her. And her-- she stood her ground. And uh, I once told my mother, "Well I don't know what love is, but I know what sacrifice is, and she has opted to date me," as opposed to a family that-- I mean, she's 21 years-old, you don't just give up your family. Her family gave up her, you know, and so, and that was just her mother and father by the way, not cousins or grandparents. Um, uh, and so. Uh, we got married. I asked her at Thanksgiving in 1970, "Hon, will you marry me?" You know, and she said, "When?" I had no idea when. I said, "semester break!" Jackson: It was my senior year. She was in grad school. And, uh, so I didn't have a job, but I'd just played my last football game the previous Saturday. And so the scholarship was gonna run out at the end of, uh, at graduation. So I was on time, Four years you know, because four years scholarship, you know, and, uh, so, uh... I s--, but I didn't have any rings or anything. So I go, um, but there was one alum, and this is another reason why I will have to reach back. There was one alum, Paul Barracker, little Jewish guy. He owned, I thought he only owned one jewelry store. He ended up owning four. But this little guy. And I told her [Sue], I asked her on Thanksgiving to marry me. And I said -- when we get back, we were visiting her sister in Sacramento -- "When we get back to San Jose, we'll go to Paul's Jewelers, downtown San Jose, and we'll get rings." Now, I didn't have a nickel. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That's the ironic self-confident naive, uh, kid I was, I guess. And so Monday rolls around and we go down to Paul's, which is just, you could walk off campus, to Paul's-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And Paul's in the store. It's one of these stores that, you know, straight in downtown, it's jewelry on this side, jewelry on that side, just walk back to the counter. Very narrow store. Paul's in the back and he sees me come and I, you know, he was an alum who would come to football practice, sometimes fly to the games on the same plane as the team. So that's how I knew him. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: As this alum who supported football, not as a friend. I mean, he was old enough to be obviously my dad or, or, or maybe even older than that. And Paul comes running out, I mean, little bitty arms. I could wrap my hand around his bicep, close my fingers. Right. And he's in a football stance. "Tony so good to see you!" "Paul, hold it!" He's really enthusiastic. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Old European kind of an accent. And, uh, he-- I said, "Paul, hold it. I want you to meet my fiancé, Sue." And he said, "Oh, so pleased to meet you, Sue!" Does this double handshake. I'll never forget this. And then he goes, I said, "Well, what are you doing?" I said, "Paul, I came to buy, uh, our wedding rings and engagement ring." He says, "Oh, good! Good, good, good!" I said, "But Paul, I don't have any money, so if you hire me, I'll start to work." He says, "Okay! Okay, okay. You stop bothering me. Go back, talk to my secretary, fill out the application. You can come to work. Sue, you can buy anything in the store." So I got, I got a job selling jewelry through, through grad school, paid for those rings. I come to find out just a few years ago that Sue gave him a $25 down payment or something, but she just told me that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But I worked for Paul. He taught me all about sapphires and all the diamonds and his jeweler, the guy who made some of the jewelry, he would teach me. He was from France. And he would, we had, I'd give him some English lessons, and now he liked my accent because it was flat. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, it didn't come with a New York or a twang or anything like that, accent. And so we exchanged a little bit of, he would teach me about clarity and diamonds, and I would clarify some words he didn't understand. Okay. But I did that for about a year and a half. And I also, uh, coached at a junior college -- football -- and realized that I didn't want to be a football coach. But I had finished my master's degree, started my PhD at UC [University of California] Santa Cruz in history. And just, and I was teaching a class -- History of Third World Peoples -- as a grad student. And I just said, "Stop. I gotta, I gotta get on with life." Sue was a high school teacher. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I actually went to work for an insurance company. So time is marching on. In the back of my mind, I still want to be a military officer. I still, war is going on in Vietnam, and I'm sitting here now, I'm in the insurance business. I'm making a lot of money. We bought a house in what became Silicon Valley. I can't even afford that house now. But bought a house. She got tenured. I was making a lot of money in the insurance business. My boss was really glad that I decided, you know, again, I was offered several jobs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, when I finally decided to work, he tried to recruit me right outta college. And my, before I-- Right when Sue and I got married, he tried to get me to go to work for him at his insurance company, and I'd turned it down, but now here I was a year or two later and I was working for him and he was really good. It was like having somebody, being in a master's degree class, the Michael Anderson Agency with Penn Mutual Life. And this guy, Mike Anderson, was just a terrific teacher and mentor. And, and so I got off to fast start under his wing in insurance, and I was the consummate kind of, you know, I'd just been the captain of the football team, and all that [inaudible]. I'd been in San Jose for five years and all that stuff. So I knew a lot of people. And so I could contact them. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But one day I was with a bunch of clients in, uh, in, uh, Candlestick Park, the old Giants, San Francisco Giants watching the Giants and Dodgers play in May of 1975. And across the screen, the-- from days on end, you saw pictures in the news of Marines and soldiers evacuating people from Saigon [now Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam] and helicopter, dramatic, people holding onto the rails of helicopters trying to get out as the North Vietnamese took over the country. And the same thing was happening in Camb-- Cambodia, and Phnom Penh. And so, uh, I... And an American ship, the U.S.S Mayaguez had been captured by the Khmer Rouge, a communist group, and we didn't know where the sailors were from that ship. And across the screen at the ballgame, kind of the old ticker tape kind of thing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: "US Marines, recapture the Mayaguez." Said the thing. And I'm sitting here with hotdogs and beer and entertaining clients at a game. So the next day I put on my suit and I went to a recruiter. Didn't tell my wife. He goes, "Hey, you go to college?" And I said, yeah. And he said, "Well, you need to go see the officer selection offer in Alameda." So I took all my tests, signed up all in one day, came home and told her. I remember the guy, he goes, "Do, you wanna, you want me to come home? I got a great movie we can show your wife. About what you're about ready to experience." I said, "You don't want me in my house tonight," &lt ; laughter&gt ; , "When I tell her what I just did." So I became private Anthony Jackson for a while before I went off OCS [Officer Candidate School]. But I was twenty-six, I was running out of time, and these guys were serving overseas, risking their lives. And here I had done nothing to really validate what I thought. And my idealistic view was to validate my citizenship and ensure that you could never deny me. As my father did, as my little brother did. So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I still promised my wife it would only be for three years. Said, "Three honey. That's it." I actually got out and went into the reserves for about a year in keeping that three-year promise, which really, I was kind of sliding. I didn't realize I was gonna, eh long-- I found that the Marine Corps was my calling. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And even I got out, went to work, another high-paying job. Got, they gave me a brand new car with Kaiser Aluminum &amp ; Chemical, and sent me to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. But I just couldn't believe I'd be working. Uh, and I, so I joined a reserves unit to stay in touch, and then I realized that I started living for that reserve weekend. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And not what I was doing with Kaiser and, uh, and money wasn't important to me. And so I asked the Marine Corps to take me back, and the rest is kind of history at [inaudible] point. Visintainer: Had you ever expressed to Sue before you, uh, before you enlisted, that you had this idea? Jackson: Yeah, she knew that. She knew that that was kind of in my bones, but I really wanted-- I, in the first couple years with that flare-up in her family over our marriage, I wanted to make sure we had a solid marriage. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Before I all of the sudden ran off and left her, you know. I really did. I think that was why I delayed for so long, uh, was, you know, that was a pretty big sacrifice on her part. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And it was never healed back up. I never, I had never met my-- I met my mother-in-law, but I never did meet my father-in-law. Although we did have a civil conversation on the phone one time. But that was the only time I even talked to him. And that was in like 1978. So, um, and then he passed away. As if-- it was ironic because he and I should have been really good friends. We're, you know, he's a naval officer. He was a World War II destroyer escort. And he had, he'd graduated from UC Berkeley, their ROTC program. He was down here in San Diego when Pearl Harbor was attacked, on his reserve duty and mobilized right away. And they sailed into Pearl Harbor just the week after. You know, he was still smoldering. Things were still, they were still trying to find guys that were in capsized ships that were still alive. And, um, and he kept a diary. And, a part of that time, he had great distinguished service during World War II, became the CO [Commanding Officer] of a ship. He was a junior ensign when Pearl Harbor happened, but he had his own ship by the time the war ended. And, uh, and then he retired as a Navy-- captain in the Navy, in the reserves, started his own business in, uh, he became a plumbing contractor, not a-- the guy that supplies all the contractors with all their gear. And during the boom years of growth in the Bay Area and made millions. And of course my wife probably didn't know how many millions he made, but she was disinherited. And that was, that was, uh, her sister got it all when he passed away. And that's probably how we found out. But, um, and so, yeah. She's, she's tough. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, and, and held her ground and, uh, and it has been a source of strength and you don't really recognize all those things. She is motivating. She won't take credit, but she has been a prime motivating factor in my life. Um, uh, I mean she has her own, she has her own opinions, her own thoughts, et cetera. But, you know, you want to, you want to do well for those who believe in you kind of a deal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So you know, I've always wanted, I mean, I've taken great risk at times without thinking about that, but I think one of the things that's always in the back of my mind is that, you know, I do owe this woman something. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so don't screw it up, buddy. But that means certainly you have to be a person of strength, especially if you're in an organization like the Marine Corps. You know, you're not a yes person. I mean, you can't be a yes person. I mean, you, you, you, you have to gauge when you should engage and you have to engage when you should just, maybe just shut up, but be willing to take on the right fights, you know? And sometimes you win 'em, sometimes you lose 'em, but don't back down until it's time to back down and then have the judgment to know when it's time to back down, you know. So it's kind of a give and take thing, because sometimes you're the boss and sometimes you're the junior guy that has to execute the plan. Visintainer: And having that judgment, I think is really difficult when you're, uh, so invested in something. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I imagine if you're in the Marine Corps and you're in a situation where you need to have that judgment, you're very invested in it. Jackson: Yeah. And, uh, and I've been on those sides of that, you know. I've lost an argument and then had to be the presenter, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, you're the guy that, uh, "Wait a minute! I was the only one in the room that objected." "Yeah. But you're, you're the communicator. You're gonna communicate it up the chain, right?" "Wait a minute, I'm-- there were twelve guys that agreed with you, sir." "Yeah, Tony, but you were the most articulate, you're presenting it! Just make sure you win!" Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "When you present it up the chain, you know?" So I've been on that side of the coin. And, you know, you-- And the other thing is, I did appreciate the Marine Corps. That the Marine Corps appreciates strength and not weakness, not, you know, it appreciates the fact that you will pick the right time and place. You know, you don't want to embarrass the boss, but will you challenge him? And so you have to have that combination of moral courage and judgment and communication skills to win over when it's not, it may not be a smooth subject. Okay? I think that is both been an asset and may have cost me a little bit of something at some point, but not nothing that-- I mean, my career exceeded my expectations. I'm not a Naval Academy guy. I'm not an ROTC guy. I didn't come out as a 21 year-old. I came in as second oldest guy in my OCS platoon. There was one other army guy that was a former soldier that was older than me, but I was, I was already as a-- the same age as my first bosses, my first commanding officers when I was a second lieutenant. And so I was always kind of -- agewise -- I think that was an edge, actually, that lightened my load because I had a sense of humor and I wasn't afraid of the process. I wasn't afraid of the process. Yeah. Because you had to. Yeah. When you go to OCS or recruit training, like down here in San Diego, you just have to drop who you are. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: For that twelve weeks. You gotta just drop who you are and accept that you're gonna be a mold. You get to be who you are once you get out of that process, you know, of them breaking you down and building you back up. So I think my age was actually a benefit. Because of my body was still, uh, easily willed into Marine Corps shape. So, yeah. And having a dad who was a sergeant in the army probably helped me a lot too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I already knew how to make a military bed, you know, to inspection standards. We did that before we went to Sunday school. We got inspected. You know, it's really funny about not remembering this as a kid. You're standing in front of your bunk just like I did at OCS, and your dad's inspecting the shine on your shoes and the crease in your trousers and stuff like that, you know. And here you are, you're ten, you're ten years old, and dad's throwing a quarter on the bed to see if it bounces. The bed's that tight. The bed has to be tight enough of that coin to bounce up, you know? So Yeah. We got those inspections on Sundays. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Boys lined up. Uh, yeah. But, uh, yeah. So, yeah. So it's been what? Sue and I have been married, yeah, we just celebrated our 52nd [wedding anniversary], you know-- Visintainer: Congratulations. Jackson: Whew. Yeah. That's, uh, it's been, it's been a road. It's been a good road. 'Cause we, you know, we, we, we have a lot of things. I tell her that the reason why we're a successful marriage is because we have absolutely nothing in common. You know? I'm a hunter and she's a doggone near herbivore. You know, not quite, but you know, uh, yeah. And we, we, we have a lot of, a lot of differences, which make it kind of good because she has her leans, and I have my leans, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. It gives you space to be your own person and you can come together around commonalities. Jackson: Right, right. And so, and then we'll come together for like a trip to the Sierras [Sierra Nevada mountain range]. Well I'll do fishing, and she'll do her native plant art, her botanical art. She likes to do that. And, uh, and so it's really kind of interesting. They'll come back at the end of the day, she'll show me her drawings and I'll show her my one little fish. So, yeah. But, uh, Visintainer: Excuse me. So, um, so you've had a really long and distinguished career and I don't think we have time to go through it in like, phase, you know, and, and every phase of it. So I'd like to skip forward just a bit towards the end of your military career. Jackson: Okay. Visintainer: And talking about the work that you did, as I understand it, as the commander of, marine camps, Marine Corps, Installations West. Jackson: Right. Visintainer: Um, and so this is a, this is a big deal, right? Jackson: This is the culmination of, uh, um, all of my general officer assignments were big deals, I thought. I mean, they were shocking the amount of responsibility a nation was willing to give a person and this special trust and confidence that you build up over, you know, twenty-eight, twenty-nine years and they finally make you a general. Um, so, uh, if you don't mind, I'll talk about the first assignment. I was, uh-- here, I was selected for my first star as Brigadier General. And I was given the assignment to be the Deputy Commanding General for Marine [Corps] Forces Central Command. MARCENT in shorthand. So, which meant that I was gonna be the deputy for first General [Wallace "Chip"] Gregson, then General [John F.] Sattler, and then general, I had three generals who became my bosses, general [James N.] Mattis. Um, so in that capacity, my headquarters, I had two headquarters, one in Tampa, Florida, where Central Command is, and one in, Bahrain, which is on the Arabian Gulf near Saudi Arabia. And, my main job was to ensure that commanders and marines in contact on the battlefield had what they need. You're, you're the link for, the commander needs this, and industry makes it, and your headquarters. You were the judge on whether: did they really need it? And if they really needed it -- which I always agreed with the commander on the battlefield, because he knew his needs -- does the industry have it? And if headquarters is fighting it, tell them to get it, we're buying it. And I had that budget too, and so I would visit the battlefields and visit the commanders, uh, both Afghanistan and Iraq during that two year assignment. And they, and, and the-- so being in and out of the battlefield, it was different than being deployed. I had been deployed to Iraq as a colonel, but as a general, I was in and out. And I would also do diplomatic stuff in Egypt for the United States military. In Egypt, in Pakistan, and Bahrain and Oman. And I would go around and visit the military commanders and my peers. And, um, but the most critical thing I did was teaming up with a scientist named Susie Alderson, who is from right here in Fallbrook. And we, the battlefield, the commanders were wanting a vehicle that was more durable and could sustain the improvised explosive device explosions [IEDs]. And we just did not have that. Uh, we had the vehicle that our, our, our explosive ordinance disposal teams, they had a vehicle called a mine resistant, ambush protected vehicle, an MRAP. And if they got hit by a mine, it, because these guys went out into mine fields all the time and diffused them, or blew 'em up or whatever. They had this one special vehicle that the South Africans had developed that MRAP, but the [US armed] services weren't, they were sold on the Humvee for some reason. We were taking horrific casualties from these improvised explosion devices. Taking off arms, legs, killing people. And so when I was in Afghanistan, I had a United, I visited this United Nations mine clearing team, and they invited me to ride in one of these South African-built MRAPs as they were gonna clear mines. And here this general, my aide was a young captain. He did not want to get in that vehicle, but they had kind of like, "come on for the ride," okay sort of challenge you. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm in a helmet, flack jacket. I've even got ballistic protection where it really counts, you know, and, uh, so, and these guys were dressed much like you. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so I took-- accepted their ride, and we hit probably seven mines, more? Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: But they were all -- fortunately -- anti-personnel mines. And so we got rattled and we could hear the shrapnel hitting the sides of the vehicle, but we were okay. But-- Visintainer: What did that feel like when you hit a mine that first time? Jackson: Well, this vehicle was pretty solid, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I mean, what it, what it just, it kind of set off alarms and gives you a little adrenaline rush. And it was kind of like if you'd had, you ever had a rock hit the windshield in front of your car? The way it smacks that hard. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Yeah. It's like a bunch of those at once. Except they're hitting metal, so you-- And I could see our chase! They gave us a chase vehicle just in case we got stranded out there, you know, vehicle breakdown. And I could see he was hitting them too. So it wasn't doing any, anybody, any good. The Soviets had laid a lot of mines and they were just, they were just horrible in Afghanistan, 'cause they put 'em in these farmers' fields so they wouldn't grow, couldn't grow crops. And that's what the UN was doing there, clearing them as we were fighting Taliban or whoever else. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I came home. I had this passion to get this vehicle, and I had, but I wasn't gonna be able to do it. Generals, the Army had refused, the Marine Corps had refused to get this vehicle. There was a whole, I didn't realize this fight was going on. I just knew my experience. And I had seen them before. General Gregson had showed me one. And here comes Susie Alderson. She had been in Iraq for a number of months, and she on her own initiative, she was a scientist assigned to me. And so she had been over there. Um, mine was a new command, so they had just set up MARCENT to handle the Middle East. And so I was the first permanent. So here I had this scientist assigned to me, and I hadn't tasked her with anything mm-hmm. But she had been over there and she did a study on survivability in various vehicles. So she had all the data laid out, if you're in this kind of, um Humvee you're gonna get killed. If you're in this kind, ehhh, there's a 80% chance you're gonna get killed. You're gonna get your legs blown off. If you're in this truck, this-- but if you're in this MRAP that the improvised explosive of the [inaudible] explosive warning disposal teams, you're most likely only gonna feel concussion. Not a death. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So I said, "Susie, great! That fits my passion." I called my staff together, put Susie and them together. Said, "You got ten PowerPoint slides, and we're gonna present this to the three-star [general]. So you [inaudible] no more than ten, they w-- general officers will fall asleep if you got more than ten PowerPoint slides. Do not do that." So I left the room and left her to my staff to power-- come up. They came in a couple hours later, "Sir, this is the brief." And I said, "Perfect." I didn't make a change to it. Susie and my chief of staff put this, it was beautiful. I called up on a secure VTC [video teleconference] because my boss was out here at Camp Pendleton, and here I was in Tampa. Got him on a little secure video of the day and told Susie, "Susie, you're the briefer. The generals have never won this argument, but you got the right voice." And, so she briefed it and they, General Sattler stopped it, or slide number seven. Next thing you know, we called up the commandant, okay, he got it in three slides. And I started buying these vehicles. I mean, and I won't bore you with the technical part of it, but Susie's data got those vehicles in within six or seven months. I mean, I sent her around to all the big vehicle manufacturers in the US said, it's gotta have this transmission, it's gotta have this drivetrain, it's gotta have this engine. And these are the three different prototypes that you can build. You know, the John Deeres of the world that build heavy equipment, they changed assembly lines. They were happy to pitch in. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, the first 300 [IED] hits in 2006, no Marine Corps deaths. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So Susie becomes the mother of the MRAP and gets the highest decoration that a civilian can get in peace time in the, in the Department of Navy. So that was a big deal. And then as a two, that was as a one-star, that was one of the best effects as a one. As a two-star. I get assigned as the, uh, we have these four star commands, combatant commands is what they're called. One for the Pacific, one for Europe, one for South America, um, Pacific, European Command, Southern Command... And, we're gonna develop another one. And it's US Africa Command. And I'm chosen to be the first Director of Military Operations and Logistics, the J3 and the J4 for that command, headquartered outta Stuttgart, Germany and our focus would be the continent of Africa and all the associated islands. Minus Egypt. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We kept Egypt in Central command. And, uh, so, uh, it's brand new! There's nothing there. I mean, we're in rehabbed Army World War II buildings that belonged to the Wehrmacht in 1930. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Its [inaudible] journey. And so we gotta build this new command. And there were two two-stars there that were, we had a four-star boss, uh, General Walls [William E. Ward] and uh, and the Air Force, his [Wards's] chief of staff was an Air Force two-star. But I was the Director of Military Operations, which, you know, is-- I mean, you're just, you're thinking about it for every military event that goes on in the, in the continent of Africa that the US is involved in, you're gonna be the director and the advisor to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the president, the National Security Council, and the President of the United States. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You're gonna be the direct guy. And my boss was the kind of guy that, uh, general Ward, when I said Walls-- General Ward was the kind of guy, he liked to do all the diplomatic high stuff, flying around, meeting with heads of state and senior military. And he left the operational kind of running of things to me. Which I liked, but it kind of was, uh, it was interesting. Sometimes I would just wonder, okay, if we do this one, so probably the most prominent one would be in, um the, the pirates off the coast of Africa, off of Somalia. And, uh, and we had, and they generally speaking stayed away from US ships. But they would take these ships. These guys were once fishermen whose fishing industry... I mean the guys who actually were the pirates, not the businessmen in London and Somalia, the kingpins in Somalia, the warlords, but the ones who executed, the actual pirates, you know, they would get word from London who's flagship, what cargo was on it, what the crew was, all that would come out of London. And they'd filter it into Somalia. Visintainer: So there's somebody in London doing research to let them know what's headed their way? Wow. Jackson: Yeah. And so, and they know what insurance company and all this, and these guys had been fishermen, but the industrial fishing of China or Korea or Japan had just about depleted their waters. So they could not-- and so you had an understanding from an intelligence standpoint of why there was this piracy, these guys who could execute it. And they were just the lower end of the whole international cabal. But-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, um, but when they captured the Maersk Alabama, uh, which was a U.S. Flagship. No way. 'Cause we weren't gonna negotiate with those guys. So-- Visintainer: When was this? Jackson: This was 2008. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: They captured the Maersk Alabama, probably the spring. With a U.S. crew on it. And, uh, so, um... let me think. Yeah, I think that was under President Bush. Let me think for a second. 2009? Yeah, it was 2009. I think that was, I think it was actually one of the first decisions that I had to get out of President Obama. So that had to be 2009. And so it was very early in his term. So it was either late winter or early spring of 2009. And there was one guy, uh, the crew overpowered most of the pirates themselves. Without a gun fight. But, a shot was fired. One of the pirates was injured. And, uh, three of 'em captured the captain, of the ship, Captain [Richard] Phillips, and lowered a life boat and got off the ship. They made a movie outta this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, um, and, uh... So now we had, they had a hostage. We had the ship back, but they had an American hostage. And so myself, um, Admiral [William H.] McRaven was the head of our Joint Special Operations Command out of Fort Bragg [now Fort Liberty] here. So he had the Navy Seals and all the special ops guys. But they're, it was Africa's, AFRICOM's territory. My boss's out galivanting. So McRaven and I, we had the [Navy] Seals put on standby and they started rehearsing. And we had -- it's amazing -- we do several rehearsals on paper and drills. We had done a rehearsal of this on paper the year before. And so we kind of knew what the plan would be, you know? We didn't know how it [would] end, the very end of it, but we knew how we would get the right forces to the point that they could execute a mission. And then once they were at that point, it was up to them exactly how, but getting them from the States to-- so McRaven and I reviewed the plan, called up the, the Joint Chiefs, the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman [of the Joint Chiefs of Staff], and briefed the plan. And we both agreed that we had a good plan to get the Navy Seals to be able to get the, the captain back. And we got pretty fast approval from the president. I think that's what we were all surprised 'cause he's a young senator we were all grizzly old admirals and generals older than the president, you know? And so we didn't have a lot of confidence 'cause these things are time sensitive, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, we, you know. You know it ended sadly in one way, because we killed all three of the pirates. Killed three of 'em. The one guy that survived was wounded when the crew took over. And so he, he was medevacked to one of our ships prior to... And we, Captain Phillips, we brought him home and it was it. So that was one, um, of a significant event. But I guess the thing is, is that you're making these life and death decisions. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That, you know, I would often tell myself that, "Hey, you have to look yourself in the mirror. And then when you get to the pearly gates, he's the only one that can pass judgment on your, on your judgment." You know, because there's been a couple of circumstances where, you know, you've directly impacted whether or not people have lost their lives or you've taken life. And so, uh, it's-- it's just one of those things and there's certain people that have to make those hardcore decisions and to think that you're in that position. And so after two years of doing that, which was a real from the bottom up, creating a command and all of the, I mean, bringing tech, I mean we're, we're talking about copper wires that were put in by the Germans in the 1930s under Hitler that we're pulling out and pulling fiber optic cable on. So we're literally building buildings and running this command and making those kinds of decisions and other decisions which have national significance, you know. And then I was the first ordered to, or to go to Baghdad [Iraq] to be the chief of staff for our forces in Iraq for General [Raymond T.] Ordierno. And, but my boss, General Ward, he'd have had to let me go early, but he had, he had become so, uh, reliant on me -- and it was a new command -- and the Marine Corps promised him a full two years that he would have me, because they had to convince him to take a Marine. He's an Army four-star, and they had to convince him to put a Marine in that very position. And he, and he took me, you know, he probably had some young Army two-star that he would've liked to put in there, but he took me in on his command. And so when the Marine Corps said, "Hey, if you leave six months early, you can go back to war." And which from a, from a Marines standpoint, it would've been best for me to go back to Baghdad. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: And be the chief of staff for General Ordierno, that would open up more opportunities as a flag officer, more senior rolls. But to get stationed at Camp Pendleton, my wife's a Californian. It was the alternative. So when General Ward objected to me leaving six months early, it became, uh, the fallback was the Marine Corps assigned me to be the Commanding General for Marine Corps Installations, West. MCI West, which included seven Marine Corps bases out west, to be the senior guy and be stationed in my wife's hometown in a place where we had owned homes in the past. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Great place for my kids to go to school. And, and so, and my kids had already, I had in 2004... In 2002, my oldest son graduated from Fallbrook High. He got, we came here in [19]98 and he-- my wife said, "I don't know where you're gonna be for the next four years, but we're going to be here as the kids go to one school." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so Brian was on his 10th or 11th school then going into the ninth grade. And so I deployed to Japan in 2002 as a colonel. And then my other son, Blaine was gonna graduate in 2004. And so I went overseas and the family stayed on base at Camp Pendleton. And then I came back and from the Far East, 'cause I didn't do the initial march to Baghdad. And I joined the unit at Camp Pendleton and we're ordered back to Iraq. And the theme went on, "I don't know where you're gonna be, but we're gonna be here." So Blaine graduated in 2004 from Fallbrook High. He got all his four years at one school. And so they were already locked in. And the wife, when I went over to Japan, I left her to, uh... She was, had chosen some land five acres in Fallbrook in 2000. Yeah. 2000. She chose five acres of this. "There's nothing here, honey." She says, "Well, I'm designing a house with an architect." I said, "Great! Then I got ordered overseas and left her to build a house. And so I departed. I came home to help her move in to a house from the base to this house that she designed with an architect. And she interviewed five or six general contractors and hired one and stayed on the work site. I was in, doing things for the nation in Japan, Korea, and Philippines. And I came back home and helped her move in and then came back from a year without family and was here for four or five months. And we got redeployed the whole, all the, most of the combat Marines at Camp Pendleton went back to Iraq in the Al Anbar Province. And I was the Plans Officer, kind of responsible for getting all the beans, band aids, bullets, people over there and married up with their equipment on a timeline, and then be the last man to, to arrive. And I remember getting there and sitting in the, getting down, getting ready to eat a meal as my host was showing me where I was gonna sleep that night and all that. And we get a bunch of incoming rounds and the whole chow hall emptied out, two of us are sitting there. And I said, "Well, there's no point in running. You might run into one, you might run into incoming." So we went ahead and finished our meal while the stuff was coming down. You know, it's random. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's random. And so, when I got stationed back here, the wife had come to live with me when I, we finally got to live together. That was, there was that time period from 2002 to 2007 that we never really lived together. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Because I was in Tampa. She stayed here with the boys, and then they both started college. And, and I got orders to go overseas to Africa command in Stuttgart. And I said, "Hey, it's your home country. Would you like to come with me?" So she came over there for the year and a half or so. And the boys were going to college and doing what college-aged guys do without parents. Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: To provide any guidance. Jeez. And then, so when I got stationed, uh, the fallback position from not going over again to Baghdad was here. It was beautiful for family. And I knew that that would be my twilight, my last tour in the Marine Corps. So from 2009 to late 2011, I got to be the commanding general for, we have our mountain warfare training center up in Bridgeport, California. We have our Marine Corps... The real main Marine Corps ground combat center out of 29 Palms [California]. Yuma has our air station, Yuma Arizona. Miramar [Marine Corps Air Station, in San Diego], Camp Pendleton, and the Air Station on Camp Pendleton. And Barstow [Marine Corps Logistics Base, Barstow California] was the seventh one. So you're kind of the, you're kind of the governor is the way I equate it. And each one of those is a city, or in case of Camp Pendleton, several cities in a county. And so they're, they have their commanding officer, a colonel. And, so I'm basically the overseer for those to make sure they have the resources to do their job. And fortunately for me, it was the beginning of the Obama era where the Economic Recovery Act was, uh, they were looking for projects and the money was there. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: To fund a lot of things. And so new hospital at Camp Pendleton, well, I got that new chow hall, new barracks, new childcare centers, all that kind of stuff. I was getting billions of dollars during my watch to build that stuff. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so it was, uh, it was a good time. I've told these young Marines now that, well, it's not gonna be like that for a while. That was during a war. And the funding was there. We had a happy Congress and they weren't squabbling over money for the military, but as soon as the wars die down, money to the military becomes scarce. Um, so, but, uh, so that was a good assignment. I would, I would say that it was, it was a little bit different than my operational time as a general officer, but we had a lot of impact. Visintainer: So this is really interesting. And I think it's, it's kind of interesting how, maybe if I'm, if I'm understanding you correctly, maybe it wouldn't have been your first choice. Jackson: Yeah. It wouldn't have been my first choice as a, yeah-- Visintainer: But in some ways it works out really nicely. Jackson: Yeah! Visintainer: To be around family-- Jackson: Because I get to be around family. I get to be-- I meet this university again. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, I never, when I, when I left, when I left here in 1986, I mean, there was nothing here. This was a stinky old chicken farm. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Uh, you know, and, uh, when I come back, your [university] president is Karen Haynes, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And her husband, gentleman Jim Mickelson is on the staff and doing what he's doing with ACE program, ACE Scholars [Services, a program for foster youth at CSUSM]. And I'm the commanding general over there. And I'm a guy with war credentials and all that kind of stuff. And, uh, and they invite me over here. And, uh, and I'm just shocked that, you know, I'd driven by a couple times on 78 and seen the building there. And, but she [Haynes] invited me to lunch and then her husband drove me around his little golf cart, you know, to campus, and I'm in uniform. And, you know, California's weird. Southern California, this uni-- our uniforms are really welcome. But Northern California is not the same place, you know. Um, and, uh, and I, and so I, she took me over and showed me the nascent Veteran Center that it was then, not what this is now. And it was kind of really a good experience and to meet Karen and see her leadership, which I would compare with any general that I'd ever served with or-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I've served with some of the best this nation has to offer. And, uh, so, so, um... It's kind of interesting that I could not develop the relationship at San Jose State. I tried to, I mean of course distance was an enemy. Yeah. You know, but they kept changing leadership. Even now, I think they're in search of another president. And that's five or six presidents in, in-- I visited the campus when I was on active duty, a one-star. And giving presentations, this one doctor there, Dr. Jonathan Ross, he was really interested. I funded a little books and furniture for their library. He had a military history library set up in the history department. And so, and I was funding a scholarship and I wasn't get-- there was no feedback. There was no feedback. Except for Jonathan. He would try, and he still sends me emails every now and then, but the university was really like... But anyway, I wasn't gonna work when I retired at first, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Okay. I certainly wasn't gonna be a commuter to San Diego and the freeways just like trying to get here today. I said, ah, I forgot there's construction. I should have went this way and that way and, uh, but, um... But, I really hit it off with that, uh, with the leadership that was here, and I retired and I was sitting around, enjoying trying to be a gardener, thinking about my next trip, doing this and that. And I turned down several nice jobs, mainly for my wife because she didn't want me to work, and I was, you know, sixty, about ready to get Social Security, max out Social Security, and then, you know, so why work? And Karen called and said, "Hey, how would you like to be on our foundation board?" And I said, okay. Man. Was that? I mean, she hooked me for, she had me set up. And I thought, hey, yeah. And I was on several boards, and so-- none of 'em paid. And, and I was gonna stay that way. And I'd bought my RV [recreational vehicle]. That was my retirement gift to myself, you know, nice. On that Mercedes chassis, looking good, driving down the freeway, camping out, fishing. And we did enjoy it. We do still have that. So we still enjoy it. And, I got calls from the governor's office. You know the boards were kind of pretty demanding anyway, and California State Parks was in a horrible position. They had money that they couldn't account for. It was mishandled. It wasn't stolen, thank goodness. Nobody lined their pockets with it, but it was making the headlines and, and, and I couldn't believe that Parks was so screwed up. Visintainer: If you want, I can pause this. Jackson: I'll just stop. No, this is.. It's amazing how these people get your number. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: My kids would text, my wife would text, you know, but these people will uh, are clever. Visintainer: Yeah. So that would've been around 2012 if I-- Jackson: Yeah. That was two thousand, yeah, twelve. Yeah. So, uh, and I'm just, I was in-- I was kind of amazed. We have no idea what the civilian sector pays for jobs in the military. As a general officer, you're basically working for nothing. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Because you've, you've maxed out the retirement scale, and because you can retire when you hit 30 years, you get 75% of your base pay. When you, in two and a half years, every year there after, so I was at 36 and a half years, so you'd imagine that I'm 75%, two and a half years times, and so I was already at 95, 97%, something like that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, you're, you are working because you love what you do. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Yeah. I mean, you're, you're, you're totally into what you're doing and it takes care of your family and all that. So I really didn't want to work. There was one job that I might have taken, and that was when the Chancellor for the UC system asked me if I would like to apply to be the President of CSU Maritime Academy. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Up in Vallejo. And that was in the spring, only two months after I had retired from the Marine Corps. And it was just, it would've just been the wrong time. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But our, but I did accept the Rockefeller Family Fund. I got to be known for some of the speeches that I gave, rather, now that I've seen the video, rather impassioned speeches about why we go to war, to a group of engineers and scientists, in particular, this one speech. And I was still in uniform and giving that speech, and I told them that, I just asked the audience of hundreds. I said, "Why is it that we're at war in the Middle East?" And you could hear the word oil echo out. You know? And, uh, and, uh, and I told 'em it was their responsibility to take us off of being dependent so we don't have to send our men and women overseas to bleed, you know, and I didn't realize they were videoing the damn thing. And it pops up all over the internet, right. So, and my job as MCI West, I mean, this is the military is a multi-billions of dollar industry in California. And as the commanding general of MCI West, you had access to the governor and Governor [Arnold] Schwarzenegger when I first got there, Governor [Jerry] Brown, later, you would meet with them once or twice a year. If there's any issues, like, you know, there's a state park on Camp Pendleton, it's one of the most profitable parks in the state park system. So this, it was good. They got the park for a $1 lease of several miles of beach, you know, and that was gonna come up for negotiation in a couple of years. And Secretary of the Navy wants real money for it now. It's not just a being a kind person anymore. It's, uh, so you have mutual interests and the environmental California Clean Air Act and all this kind of stuff and whether or not we can meet our tanks can meet your emission standards. No. So what's gonna be the offset? Things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So you're up there negotiating and trying to make them aware. And being a Californian, it also gave me a little bit, um, adopted Californian anyway, it gave me a little bit different access because I was one of them sort of. And so when I talked to a senator or to the member of the of the governor's cabinet, it came out, uh, we had positive discussions. So they knew me in Sacramento. And they knew I had a green side. And they knew that we were doing all of our green development on our bases. We were doing a lot. It was funded by the Secretary of the Navy, Secretary [Ray] Mabus and President Obama. And so, we were being really green. And so I was speaking the language of the Commander In Chief and the Secretary of the Navy, being really green, and as my war experience as well made me have pretty much total buy-in. And my wife's Prius. And the fact that she put in, I gave her $30,000 and put in solar at our house. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, you know, all of those things, you know. And so I got a call from the, from the governor's office and the Secretary of Natural Resources, if I would please consider being the director of California State Parks. I said, "Oh, man, that sounds so good. I could do my job in my RV." And my wife, who's just a natural member of, at that time of the Sierra Club and the California Native Plant Society and all that. This, that's actually a job I'll consider. So I told her about it, and she said, "Well, if that's what you want to do." Which is her logical, her normal answer too. And so I took that up, I mean, to get the millions of dollars back in the right place. They had a morale problem. But they're kind of like military people in as much as, uh, a bunch of really dedicated people that don't get paid much for their dedication. They work for the state, the state doesn't realize, matter of fact, I'd say in some of the assignments that the park rangers have, they live more austere than a military family would definitely live. And the state doesn't recognize that, but they're-- If you're a ranger and you've got a series of parks in Carmel, Monterey, and those beach parks and stuff like that, and the state can't pay you enough for housing and stuff, things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And some of the more remote places, it's amazing! Old ranch houses that they'll rehabilitate, you know, and they learn to love what they're doing. You know, they, they, they do it because they love the great outdoors. They love people, they love the animals and all of that stuff. And they hear they, "Hey, I want to give you a pay raise, bring you to Sacramento and put you at my right hand." "Oh, no sir. I want to be, I want to be right down here where I am. I don't want to be in Sacramento." Uh, and they, they, they, there's a very different, uh, they're, they're much like Marines, but they don't have an up or out sort of ethic or, or, or, or value system. Theirs is, "I'm here. Like, this is my park, these are my parks, and this is where I want to raise my family, even if it's a twenty-five mile bus ride for my kids to go to kindergarten." This is, this is in the, I loved them for that. Great people. And, and I think they were, I don't want to talk too badly of my predecessor, but they needed the kind of leadership that's taught and admired in the Marine Corps. So getting in my, I literally got my RV, we have a state park on-- Border Fields State Park right there at the fence. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Separating Tijuana from us. And we have one all the way on the Oregon border. Arizona border. Nevada border. And so I just, my wife and I, and I call the office in, um, and I tell my secretary, Lynn Black, I say, "Lynn, tomorrow I'm gonna be at Humboldt State Park. You can tell him now." Okay. But I didn't want her to tell him, you know, a week in adva-- I didn't want him scrambling. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: You know, I know how it is in the military when you know the general's gonna show up. It might be two weeks of scrubbing brass, you know, you know, if they got two weeks notice, they have two weeks of panic. If they, if they have twenty-four hours of notice, they only got twenty-four hours of panic. And you can't fix much that's broken in 24 hours. So that was great. I, I did enjoy that. I did not want a new career though. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, I told the governor I've got two or three years, and not only that, I had grown spoiled, as a general officer to make critical decisions, life decisions. And you cannot do that. I mean, you're a political appointee of the governor, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And you gotta be approved by, you know, two-thirds of the state senate. So you had to go through those hearings and all that, so you could not be totally, you could be what the governor wanted. But maybe not the governor's staff. The initiative was a little bit frightening. My initiative I think was a little bit frightening in Sacramento, and I can't stand micromanagers. Visintainer: Yeah. How was it frightening? Jackson: Uh, say your question again? Visintainer: How was it frightening? Jackson: Um, who, my initiative? Because I might do something that, uh, that might be really good for parks, really good for parks' people, but maybe it doesn't suit the governor's budget agenda. It might be too, you know, and so you did not want, and you didn't want to be that guy that-- but you wanted to do the right things, and you had to have people that would kind of support you in, in, in, in, uh, that you were trying to do the right thing. Now, they could argue, and you might not be able to do it, but I did not feel that-- the military's incredible in terms of the responsibilities that I was given. And it was based on the special trust and confidence that I had built up over, you know, thirty years of service. And that, I mean that is, you're making really important decisions affecting people and maybe tens of thousands of people. And so to come down from that, it was, was, was not ideal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you had to come down from that, uh, you know, uh, your ego. Something had to, had to, had to back off. That you no longer had that much special trust and confi-- You had some trust and confidence. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But you didn't have that ultimate special trust, you know, because, you know. And, uh, and so I, I, I, I decided that certainly I didn't wanna spend any more time in that environment than fixing what I could fix. So got the budget money straight, got it all back, started fixing restrooms, started-- I, you know, I took it like it was a military operation: to develop a campaign plan, publish it to everybody. To everybody. Put it on the, on the website so every employee could read it. Visintainer: And at some point-- Jackson: I, you know, I set up a, it still goes, they dropped me off the mailing list. My wife is still on the mailing list, but it's an email newsletter goes out every Friday. It's the same thing the Marine Corps does. I still get 'em from the, from the... from the Chief of Naval Operations. And I get a daily report of what's important. And then from the Marine Corps, every Friday I get one. You know, so that when I'm communicating as a member of a community, I'm talking from some firsthand knowledge. Not all of it, I don't, I'm not nothing secret, all open source stuff that we can communicate when we're out in our communities. As a flag officer, you still have certain responsibilities. Visintainer: Sure. Jackson: That, uh, uh, so yeah. So the civilian world's a little bit different, you know, and it was kind of... I think you have to, you have to adapt to it though, it's not gonna adapt to you. And so I, you know, after about two years, I kind of said, okay, and things are relatively stable here, for you. And, I would, I'm gonna step down and I was like I'm, I was just ready not to, and my wife one day, she goes, I was, I was commuting back and forth. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So I would like fly home on Friday night and maybe Thursday night sometimes, and then I'd fly out Sunday night back to Sacramento or early Monday morning. And, you know, and that-- one day she looks at me and she says, "This is just like you're deployed." Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know. So I knew it was about time to put in the hat. Those two things came together, that deployment remark. And I was like, challenged whether or not I did, I wanted to give up the idea of that special trust and confidence that I had grown so used to as a military officer. Visintainer: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Jackson: Mm-hmm. So. Visintainer: I had a couple questions about Camp Pendleton I wanted to ask you. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: One was, I was, I was curious about the base's relationship with the surrounding North County community and how that changed, how you've seen that change over time, if it has, maybe it hasn't? Jackson: Actually. Um, you know when Oceanside [California] was like shootouts at the O.K .Corral, not shootouts, but get drunk, go to a strip club, that kind of thing. In the seventies, it was, it was pretty, pretty harsh. And 'cause the Marine Corps was, it was, it was-- those were tough times for the Marine Corps and the city and the development. You didn't have the growth boom that's occurred over the last forty to fifty years for sure. But, I think it's really good relationship with the, with the uh, with the community. With the colleges, community colleges. I think this is a great relationship that Cal State San Marcos has with the military community in San Diego, writ large. And I think that Camp Pendleton... I think, I think the region knows that like 65% of the Marine Corps' combat power is here and you can add on the Yuma Air Station with it, is here, this is the main war-fighting engine, and you got similar but smaller in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina and forward deployed in Okinawa, Japan. But they're smaller and they have different wartime commitments. This is the heavy punch. And these bases, both the airspace, the sea space and the ground space for training are unmatched in the world. So you have the finest, this geographic area, just, just what God put here makes it that way, you know, and you can have every just about climatic condition within MCI West, with the exception of a tropical jungle, you know. From the Sierras and our cold weather arctic training to the desert, to mountains and all this kind of stuff, the beaches. And, I mean, it's incredible training. And that's why Camp Pendleton, you know, was initially, what do they call it when the city comes in and takes your property? They took Camp Pendleton-- Visintainer: Eminent domain? Jackson: Eminent domain. That's how it was. You know, here's $4 million, you're out of here. The O'Neill family, and they're the ones that developed San Clemente and all that region up north of San Clemente, you know, big developers, they're still here. The O'Neil family still, part of it's still here. But that eighteen miles of coastline, the number of military and military families associated with it. That, and the Navy, I think this is, we generate billions, like thirty-six billion dollars annually. And then in the state of California, it's over fifty-six billion dollars. So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Just about one in every eleven or twelve defense dollars comes to California. Visintainer: Wow. That's significant. Jackson: Yeah. I mean, you considered there's 50 states. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they pay taxes too. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, um, I mean, Vista, the mayors, the, and the, and the San Clemente and, and Oceanside and San Marcos, they show up at events. They're invitees. They're on the invitation list to events. The old mayor of Oceanside, he used to be quite a character, but he was kind of losing it a little bit, and he's a really nice guy and he's had some strokes and stuff like that, but he'd still show up, you know? To things. And so I think that both from an economic development standpoint, and I think Camp Pendleton also felt that during my time there, that we were really helping San Diego, San Diego County, and the local communities with our investments that were given through the Economic Recovery Act. We were employing the citizens out there. It's a, you know, it's a kind of a domino effect on money spent from the military community here. So I think there's a really good relationship between the military. And I, and I, and, and I appreciate it because I don't think every community in California, although I'm on the governor's military council, and so I get to visit-- matter of fact, we have a meeting in another week or two. I better look at my calendar up at Vandenberg Air Force Base. But we meet all over the state where there's military communities, and we try to tie the, one of the things we try to do is tie the communities with the military base around them, and a lot of, and the communities have embraced that to the benefit of both. Because if you have a, um, a water problem or a waste management problem on your base, well, that's part of the community's problem too, because you're probably locked into the system. If you're trying to do renewable energies on the base, that's probably the community's issue too. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: If the schools aren't properly funded in the communities around the base, then you're, it's probably the base people are gonna be concerned. The military families are gonna be concerned, and they're not gonna want to go there if the schools aren't good schools. And so, I mean, we did a, around both Camp Pendleton, the Fallbrook Union School, elementary school district, and around Edwards Air Force Base, north of Los Angeles, they were both schools that are impacted by the military but weren't, were slipping in terms of, oh, quality of education, quality of facilities, and getting instructors. And some of these places are hardcore. And so the military worked with them to get matching funding in both of those school districts to, to rebuild schools, to hire teachers and things like that, that affects quality of life for military families as well as, you know, the community writ large. So it behooves the communities to, uh, to be kind of tied in with the bases, and it behooves the bases to be tied in. And so the commanders normally really recognize that and are accepted in the community. I have had one negative experience. It was actually, I was at [employed at] state parks and I was asked to be the commencement speaker at my high school in Oakland. It's kind of nice. I'm a retired general coming, and then I got a phone call from them, saying the principal wanted to make sure that I would not wear my uniform to the [ceremony]. Now I've been retired for, probably couldn't fit in my uniform and he should have thought of that. "Don't wear your uniform," basically. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm going, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, wait a minute." The high school principal's asking a guy who spent thirty-six and a half years in this uniform, that he doesn't want him to wear it. Now, first of all, I wouldn't have thought of wearing my uniform to, uh, you know, if it's a military event... No, I still wouldn't have worn a uniform. Get a new tuxedo. I mean, you're in ship, tip-shop shape when you're in there. You know, you're you know. I think I've grown a little bit rotund since those days, right. Gently so. But, uh, and so that uniform is fitted to you, you know? And so I wouldn't have dreamed of it. But he, it was such an insult. I said, unless they withdraw that I'm not gonna speak. And so I didn't speak at my high school. And that was after retirement, and it was a totally unnecessary thing. But that's the difference. I mean, you'll run into that at the, at northern, you know. You know, I remember days going to watch the students riot at Berkeley and all that, but that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That was an attitude out of a principal in Oakland and my old alma mater. So, uh, and that's the only negative that, but I thought that was uh, and I just told him, I said, "Well, I can't come." I said, because it, it's like you're dishonoring-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You want me to deny I am a general. Visintainer: That's a huge part of your, your existence-- Jackson: When you, you know, as I remember Commandant General James Conway going, no matter what, gentlemen-- all the generals in the Marine Corps get together once a year, and those who aren't forward deployed anyway, and he says, "I don't want you all worrying about whether you're a one-star, two-star, three-star, whatever. You're all just going to be generals and when they put it on your tombstone, that's what everybody will remember." They don't remember if you're, whatever, general, general, Lieutenant General. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so I thought that was good advice for, you know, and, uh, yeah. But yeah, it's kind of an interesting, well, let me show you one thing here. &lt ; laughs&gt ; I brought this because my wife told me to bring it, but she's my smartest counselor. She does these really cool, she doesn't do like family albums, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: She tells the family story in this, in these, so you can-- Visintainer: Can I [inaudible]? &lt ; Visintainer moves camera to show album sitting in Jackson's lap&gt ; . Jackson: She does these drawings. Yeah. Yeah. So all the drawings you see in this, she does, there's an old oak tree down by the Santa Margarita River and it's been chopped and it's been burned, and the top's been blown off in high winds, but it's just resilient, you know? So she says, that's kind of the story of your family-- Visintainer: Uh-huh. Jackson: Resilience, you know, and so, uh... So you'll see these different drawings, and then she'll go through and then she's found, it's kind of hard ; we know that on my mother's side, this is my dad's, I mean, you can see how thin [the family tree is], when you're descendants of slaves, you don't necessarily get all the way back on the African descendants' side. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Very far. And this is my dad's little genealogical tree. And then this is my mother's. And what's interesting is from my mother's side, and this is where my dad lied on his draft card and said his parents were deceased. And, so that's my dad as a like 16 year-old. I said, he looks like older than that, and this is him at the Korean War, and this is kind of his story. And then when I said he is a boxer, now this is my dad, when I was a senior in high school. Do you think I'd ever mess with my dad? Visintainer: No you can definitely he was a, he was a prize fighter. Jackson: But he never lifted weights. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And this is a newspaper article when he was-- about why he chose to stay [inaudible]. He was a rated heavyweight fighter, but he chose to stick with the Army. And in this article there, they asked him why. And he just said it was more secure. But I only saw him in person fight one time. And he knocked the guy out with a, and this is his father and his mother. And yeah, that's my oldest sister and grandmother and my dad's sister. But there's, now it goes over to my mother's side, and this is my mother as a girl. And this is all seven, there's very few pictures of all seven of my brothers and sisters. And this is like third grade Tony right there with his finger in his mouth. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And this is, and this is us in Oakland. This is in Texas. And this is all seven of the kids. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, my dad's funeral, I think that's what got us back together. But my family goes back to the original pioneers on my mother's side of, founding, they were with Brigham Young's party. And, um, and this tells the story, and one of the three people were with Brigham Young that were slaves. And my great-great-great grandfather [Green Flake] was a slave to, that was with that original Mormon party. And so he becomes a founder. That's my great-grandmother. There's a couple of pictures in here that are kind of neat. But Green Flake, that's him, was a slave. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That came with the original. This tells the story of the original Mormon party that he was with. And he was, he was a scout. And um, and he-- and um, a road builder. And he drove Brigham Young's wagon. So when Brigham Young ends up in Salt Lake, the guy who he says, "This is the place," is my great-great-great grandfather, Green Flake. Now this is kind of a, this is my, this is Green Flake's daughter, my great-great-grandmother. This is my great-grandmother. This is that same great-grandmother with my grandmother, with my mother, with my older sister. Now, the curious thing is: so far the oldest of each generation is a woman, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then now down here, this is a picture with my grandmother: her, my mother, her ; my sister, her right there ; her daughter Lonnie, the first of that generation, and her daughter. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So for seven consecutive generations, it's all girls. Visintainer: That's amazing. Jackson: And then finally she broke the mold. She now has a son, which is the first of that generation. And this is another curious thing. This is my great-great grandfather, one of them. And he's Mexican. And he changed his name to George Stevens. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: It doesn't show up much in my DNA, less than 1%. So my family has always had this knowledge. And then my wife got really into it. And then, and Green Flake-- This is a statue of Brigham Young, which is in downtown Salt Lake City, if you've ever been there. Visintainer: I've never been. Jackson: And in it, they list all of the original pioneers. And then down in a corner it has the three slaves, and which includes my great-great-great grandfather, Green Flake, you know. And, um, so he becomes the oldest living member of the original Mormon pioneers. Of the original ones. And so he's at the Jubilee, the 50th anniversary, he gets invited back from his farm in Idaho to be an honored guest as the oldest living. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And so, and here this lady stands up, this is from the Salt Lake Union Tribune of 1903 or something like that when he's there. And [the lady] asked him what it's like to be a slave. And so we actually have in quotes from the Tribune what it was like. 'Cause he was born in 1828. So, so that was kind of curious. And so where they did make a marker at a park, Pioneer Park. This marker was there, and somebody tore it down years ago. And I took my sons to see it with my mother, and this is his tombstone, which is kind of cool. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And, uh, so somebody tore this down, and then, so this-- It was amazing, this summer, last summer past, they finally-- that's my family reunion, right? This picture right here, that's my sister and aunt. They finally built this thing. Look how small they look. Over a 10-foot statue of Green Flake now is in the, the historic park, um, Heritage Park of Salt Lake City, Utah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's got this oversized statue of Green is finally made the, besides the footnote. But anyway, that was just in July I think they commemorated that statue. So that's part of what gives Jackson strength. Visintainer: Yes. Jackson: You know, is knowing that you have a, you know, a big history with this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Are we over time? Visintainer: Uh, we-- we we're actually almost out of [camera] battery strength. We've talked for a while, so I think it's as good a place of any is to end the interview. I actually have so many more questions for you, but-- Jackson: That's all right. Visintainer: We'll run out of, we're run out of battery so-- Jackson: That's okay. It was fun to talk. Visintainer: It is a real pleasure to have you-- Jackson: Be hoarse the rest of the day. Visintainer: Yeah. It's a pleasure to have you visit us and-- Jackson: Yeah, well thanks for inviting me to recall some good things and, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: There were no real flashbacks, you know? Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: It can happen though. Every now and then, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Oh man. Visintainer: Well, thank you again. Jackson: Okay. Hopefully that was-- Visintainer: I'm gonna go ahead and end the interview. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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Description An account of the resource Major General Anthony L. Jackson retired from the United States Marine Corps on January 1st, 2012, after more than thirty-six years of service. After retiring form the Marine Corps, he served as the Director, California State Parks and Recreation from November 2012 through June, 2014. Major General Jackson has also served as the Chairman of the California State University, San Marcos, Foundation Board of Directors. In his interview, Jackson discusses his upbringing in a military family, including participating in a sit-in in a local drug store, and offers a comparison between his military service and that of his father, who served in the United States Army. Jackson discusses life on military bases and support systems for deployed soldiers. Jackson recounts the courtship of his future wife, Sue, their early relationship, and the experience of being in an interracial relationship in the 1970s. Jackson discusses his later career with the Marines, including serving as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT, where he helped make the case for the military to purchase Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs) during the second Iraq war, and working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, AFRICOM. Jackson also discusses finishing his military career by returning to Camp Pendleton and other western U.S. bases as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West). Jackson also discusses his time working for California State Parks, his relationship with Cal State San Marcos, and his family lineage, which includes the enslaved wagon driver Green Flash, who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-32 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Civil rights demonstrations Iraq War, 2003-2011 Military families Mormon Church Piracy -- Indian Ocean Racism United States. Africa Command United States. Marine Corps Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-07 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anthony L. Jackson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Houston (Tex.) Indian Ocean Oakland (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Stuttgart (Germany); Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived SC027 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Anthony L. Jackson