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Oral Histories
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Faye A. Jonason
Interviewee
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Leslee K. Roberts
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RobertsLeslee_JonasonFaye_2022-11-29.xml
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5.4 Roberts, Leslee K. Interview November 11, 2022. SC027-23 0:38:15 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection Community oral histories CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm United States. Marine Corps Poway (Calif.) Women marines Korean War, 1950-1953 Veterans -- United States Telephone operators Leslee K. Roberts Faye A. Jonason mp4 RobertsLeslee_JonasonFaye_2022-11-29.mp4 1:|16(2)|32(7)|45(3)|64(2)|86(17)|113(4)|144(2)|174(4)|195(17)|225(13)|257(15)|284(3)|310(18)|335(4)|374(2)|406(7)|436(16)|459(15)|493(8)|511(16)|545(5)|594(12)|616(5)|639(6)|682(5)|719(11)|736(4)|753(13)|808(4)|852(2)|898(2)|932(5)|953(11)|989(11)|1019(4)|1050(9)|1089(10)|1156(10)|1167(16) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/73ed728127e92b4e01be2617427312f6.mp4 Other video English 0 Entering the Marine Corps/ Boot camp training Leslee Roberts discusses her decision to join the Marine Corps during the Vietnam War. She recounts growing up in Cleveland, OH and how she had originally joined the Sisters of Charity, but that her independent personality made her a difficult fit to become a nun. Her brother who had ambitions to join the Marine Corps later introduced her to a recruiter and she enlisted. Leslee also discusses her boot camp training at Parris Island and the strict grooming rules that were expected of women Marines. Cleveland (Ohio) ; Marine corps ; Nuns ; Parris Island (S.C.) ; Sisters of Charity ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Vietnam War ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 349 Assignment at Camp Pendleton Leslee Roberts discusses being assigned to Camp Pendleton in 1966 or 1967. She was around twenty-four years old. She worked in the Marine Corps Exchange and trained other Marines due to her previous work experience. It was during this period in which she met her husband. Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Marine Corps ; Marine Corps Exchange ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 510 Working as a switchboard operator Leslee Roberts recounts her work as a switchboard operator in the Marines. She began this work prior to joining the Marines when she worked at the Salvation Army’s hospital. She briefly explains the technology behind the switchboard. She describes the most enjoyable part of the work was interacting with other people and learning about their day-to-day lives. Leslee also describes the Marine Corps uniforms that were worn during the summertime and wintertime. Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Marine Corps ; Marine Corps Exchange ; Marine Corps uniforms ; Military uniforms ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Switchboard operator ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 746 Women Marine barracks at Camp Pendleton Leslee Roberts discusses living at the Women Marine barracks when she was assigned to Camp Pendleton. She describes the experience as unpleasant and lived there for less than a year before moving off base. She explains that the Woman Marine barracks were “squad based” and that Marines had to maintain their quarters to strict regulations. Leslee also briefly describes the social life in the barracks and how rank and rules affected daily life for the Marines. Barracks ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Marine Corps ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military ; Women Marine barracks 0 1042 Marriage Leslee Roberts describes her marriage to her husband who she met while assigned to Camp Pendleton. Her husband was a Gunnery Sergeant. They moved to Oceanside, CA after getting married and lived in Oceanside for five years before moving to Poway, CA. She explains that she continued to work for the Marine Corps Exchange after getting married. She also recounts the various military regulations that she and her husband had to jump through in order to get married. She explains that due to her low rank and her gender, she had to ask permission to marry her husband from her Commanding Officer. She also explains that she received an honorable discharge once she became pregnant. Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Gunnery Sergeant ; Marine Corps ; Marine Corps Exchange ; Marriage ; Military regulations ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Poway (Calif.) ; Pregnancy ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 1318 Living in San Diego County Leslee Roberts describes her current life in San Diego County. She has lived in the same house in Poway, CA since 1972. She explains how Poway was a new community and that she enjoyed watching it grow. She recalls participating in events, greeting new citizens in Poway, and watching the construction of various developments and schools. Community center ; Developming community ; North County San Diego ; Poway (Calif.) ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego County ; Schools 0 1545 Reflecting on the Marine Corps Leslee Roberts reflects on the Marine Corps from a gender lens. She explains that while women were seen as second-class citizens during the Vietnam War, that men and women both enlist for the same reasons. She expresses her how she is glad to see women being granted the same honor and privileges as men in the military in the twenty-first century. Gender ; Marine Corps ; Sexism ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 1676 The community of Poway, CA Leslee Roberts continues to reflects on the community of Poway, CA. She recalls the history of Poway’s schools that eventually led to the formation of Poway Unified School District. She also discusses the fight to create a community center and a community pool. Leslee also discusses the complicated relationship between North County and the City of San Diego, such as North County citizens having to abide by San Diego tax laws or relying on San Diego to fix their streets. Community center ; Developing community ; North County San Diego ; Poway (Calif.) ; Poway Unified School District ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego County ; Schools ; Taxes 0 Oral history An oral history interview with Leslee K. Roberts, a Marine Corps veteran, who shares her experiences growing up in Ohio, deciding not to become a nun and choosing to leave Ohio by joining the U.S. Marine Corps. She discusses some military regulations, meeting and marrying her husband, and her various homes in North County. She talks about her involvement and support of the Poway community as well as Poway’s early development. Faye Jonason: Good afternoon. It is November 29th, 2002―22, and we are at the
 ; Marine Corps Mechanized Museum. And I am interviewing―my name is Faye Jonason
 ; and I’m interviewing Leslee Roberts, and we’re doing this for CSU San Marcos’s
 ; Program for Oral History and for Marine Corps Base, Camp Pendleton’s Oral
 ; History Archives. So, thank you for being here.
 ; 
 ; Leslee Roberts: My pleasure.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And I’m going to ask you your name—your full name—and for you to spell
 ; your last name, please.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes. My name is Leslee Kaye Roberts. That’s R-O-B-E-R-T-S.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And you were in the Marine Corps!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes,
 ; 
 ; ma’am.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, I’d like to know, very much, how you came about the decision and
 ; how you came to the Marine Corps.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (sighs) That’s a bit of a story. Um, number one, I have a―I had a
 ; brother and it was his dream to become a Marine. He was about four years younger
 ; than I and that’s all he ever talked about. Number one. That was not originally
 ; my ambition. I joined the Sisters of Charity to become a nun and that did not
 ; work out too well. I’m very independent individual, had hard time conforming.
 ; So, I was told that I would not fit with the Sisters of Charity. So, I left.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Now this was in Cleveland?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: This was in Cleveland. Uh, like
 ; 
 ; I was, uh, in my twenties, and I had no job, and I bounced around for a while,
 ; and my brother—bless his heart—kept telling me “Join the Marine Corps. Join the
 ; Marine Corps.” It was something that he had desired and something that he worked
 ; at for—all through his high school years. He even knew the, um, recruiter, okay?
 ; So, he introduced me to the recruiter and the young man convinced me
 ; that—what–what’s three years—okay? So, at the time I was doing nothing, and I
 ; said, all right. And I put my hand in the air and I became a Marine.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (laughs) What did your family think about that?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: They weren’t too happy. My mom—she always went along with whatever
 ; decision I made,
 ; 
 ; within reason. My dad took it very hard. It was during the Vietnam War, and he
 ; even laid his head in my lap and cried, “Please don’t do this!” But it was too
 ; late. I already had my hand in the air and I belonged to the United States of America.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (chuckles) Okay. So, what happened next?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I went to bootcamp!
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Where?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Parris Island, and spent a good s–almost eight weeks—I guess it was—in training.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: What did they train you to do?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: To be honest, as I kind of mentioned here before, um, the whole idea of
 ; boot camp wasn’t any different than becoming a sister for Sisters of Charity.
 ; (Jonason laughs) The whole idea of both institutions was to take my personality,
 ; take me
 ; 
 ; (points to herself) away and to think as one individual. I was not allowed to
 ; have individual thoughts or ideas. And the Marine Corps was basically the same.
 ; You were to think as one unit and not as a person, but as one unit.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And so, you’re training―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: In–in the Marine Corps? Boot camp is basically the same. There was a
 ; lot of, uh, book learning to learn whatever. There was a lot of marching,
 ; learning to follow rules. Um, I don’t know if I can be any more specific than that.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did they teach—you know—I know the Marine Corps taught makeup to some women.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (shaking her head) No. I was never taught about makeup.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: You were—you weren’t taught ―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: You weren’t even allowed to wear makeup.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (clears her throat) Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Okay? The—one of the things I remember the most is your hair had to be short.
 ; 
 ; It could touch the collar (points to her collarbone) but not cover the collar.
 ; But, again, I didn’t follow those rules and I got away with it.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Hm.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (sighs) I have a hard time conforming, still do.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: The rule was it could not—it could–it could touch but not cover, you
 ; know, the–the collar (gestures to her shoulder area). So, all I did was wear it
 ; up. And as long as I got up every day before Reveille was called, I made sure my
 ; hair was up and I had eyebrows on, because you weren’t allowed to wear make up either.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh. (laughs)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (shrugs) So―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, you got your training in Parris Island.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And then what happened? Where did you go after that?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, I was given leave, for two weeks and I—while I was in boot camp, I
 ; had choices. I didn’t
 ; 
 ; necessarily—I wouldn’t necessarily get those choices. But, I asked for San
 ; Diego, California. And I got California! (she smiles)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And why did you ask for San Diego, California?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Because I’d never been out of Ohio.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh, okay. And did they say―I guess they sent you to San Diego.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: They did, all the way to Camp Pendleton.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. And what year was that? Do you know?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I believe it was ’66, ’67, yeah.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. And how–how were you assigned your job?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, (sighs) that’s a good question. I assumed my job—Number one, I was
 ; a bit of older recruit, okay? And I had experience in working—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: You said you were in your twenties.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I was around twenty-four.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: So, that made me a little bit older than most recruits coming in. They
 ; were eighteen, nineteen—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —years old. Because I had the experience, they took that experience and
 ; they gave me an M.O.S., which was forty-one eleven, which was an Exchange person
 ; accou–accountant and Commissary accountant.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And you say you also did some kind of interviewing or training other Marines.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: When I got into working for—in the Exchange—I did—I interviewed people
 ; to work in the Exchange, okay?
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: And hired them. I worked in Personnel.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: And handled most stuff regarding that.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And how long did you do that?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: For the three years that I was in.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And what do you remember best about your time at Camp Pendleton during
 ; that time.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I met my husband.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Ah! (chuckles) And how did you meet your husband?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: He also worked
 ; 
 ; in the Exchange. Of course, he was higher up than I was. And, he ran his own
 ; store. And, um, at times I was a switchboard―I would work the switchboard and
 ; relieve at lunch time. And we got to communicating on the switchboard, and he
 ; finally come over and introduced himself.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: And I don’t have to tell you, from that point on, we clicked!
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. Tell me about your switchboard work, because that doesn’t exist
 ; anymore, does it?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: What was that like?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: ―not that I know of. Um, I enjoyed it, okay? It was work that I also
 ; did at the hospital when I worked for the Salvation Army (unintelligible). And
 ; um, so because I had that experience it was on my record, so to speak. And when
 ; I went to work for the Exchange, I kind of relieved people. I worked in the office.
 ; 
 ; We were all in the same facility. And I would relieve them for lunch, or if
 ; someone called in sick, or whatever, so―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: How does the―most―myself, I have never run a switchboard.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: How would I go about doing that?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, that’s kind of hard to say! (laughs) And that’s—you know—a
 ; switchboard! Um, it was just another way of communicating from phone to phone
 ; within the offices. And each phone had a number, and there was a number on the
 ; board, and there were the cords that you would plug in outside or you could plug
 ; them into each other.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh, okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, it’s like something you―like—I’m trying to think of what they’re called.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I can’t think of anything at this time that would―I could compare it
 ; to, except if you had a–a phone with buttons, you know.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Yeah. Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: You just plugged them in!
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Interesting, interesting. And so, you were here for three years and what
 ; 
 ; were your uniforms that you were required to wear while you were working and
 ; while you were doing other―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I always was in uniform.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Which was?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Summertime, wintertime. I worked with the uniform.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: What―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I was in the Marine Corps.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: —what kind of uniform?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: In the summertime, we had a–a light uniform, fit for the weather. In
 ; the winter, we had a much heavier, darker-colored uniform.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. And you always had to wear a cover outside?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Outside, always.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. Is there anything about that work experience that you would like
 ; to tell us about?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, you got to meet a lot of people!
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Yeah?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Always. And uh, it was always—it was a bit fun, in a way, because you
 ; could for months communicate with an individual and talk and say, “How was your day?”
 ; 
 ; and “Oh, I just had a baby,” or whatever, okay? And never, ever see their faces.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Uh, (chuckles) okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: So, that was kind of different. Yes. And it was always a fun experience
 ; when they were able to come and say “Hi, I’m so-and-so. I work for―” whatever.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, were there civilians that came in and shopped where you were?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, absolutely! I mean, this was a Commissar―uh, well, at the time it
 ; was an Exchange, the Military Exchange. And of course, all civilians, troops―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Their families.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Their families, absolutely. Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Were there any special events that associated with your–your work?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Can you be more specific?
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did they hold any special events at—I guess—at the exchange.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No. We–we celebrated the Marine Corps birthday, uh―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did they close down the store? Did you have spe―I mean, what did they
 ; do for that?
 ; 
 ; (clears her throat)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Bec–being civilian, not a lot, okay? Because not only the military
 ; shopped there ; their families did, which was not military, okay? Um, the―we
 ; would be closed on holidays. And, we were just like any outside, whether you
 ; were working at Target or J.C. Penny or whatever.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. Um―
 ; 
 ; (A second interviewer, Maryellen Cortellini, seems to be asking Leslee a
 ; question, because Leslee looks to her right, away from Faye.)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: (less audible) Where did you live when you first got to Camp Pendleton?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I didn’t hear the question.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Excuse me. What was the question? (It sounds as though Jonason turns to
 ; ask the Cortellini to repeat the question.)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Where did she live?
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh, where did you live when you first came to Camp Pendleton?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I lived in the W.M., Women Marine’s barracks. Um, it was not my cup of
 ; tea. And when I was able, I moved off base. It wasn’t quite, um, legal, but I did.
 ; 
 ; I had a― (sighs) there was a―I can’t remember her rank. I think she was a Staff
 ; Sergeant, and she was being transferred to, um, Virginia, and she had pets, and
 ; she knew I did not like living in the barracks with a bunch of teenagers. So,
 ; she offered me her home if I would take care of her pets! And—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —I moved off base, oh, within eight months or so and lived in Carlsbad.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: And took care of her home and her pets.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, how long had you stayed in the Women Marine barracks themselves?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, actually, it wasn’t even a full year.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. And these were wooden buildings?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No. At the―these were new barracks that they had just recently built.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, they were, what, squad based?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Squad based! Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: How many―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: A great big―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: ―bunks?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Well, I think we had about twenty in the squad bay I lived in. And you
 ; were judged—you were put in the squad bay according to your rank.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And so, you’re–you’re one bunk above and below?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Exactly.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And you were required to keep them a certain way.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Absolutely.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Regulation.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: You had–you had, um, I can’t remember the exact term. Forgive me.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Junk on the bunk?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No, uh―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (laughs) That’s what I was told.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: We―well, not then! We had to maintain and keep them clean, okay? And
 ; so, it was a–a group thing that was done once a week, no matter what your rank
 ; was. You were required, you know. Wash floors, windows, whatever.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did you also do other things besides your job in maintaining the–the
 ; barracks? Did you―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh! Had a good time! (both she and Jonason chuckle)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Well, you did more than that, I know! (Roberts laughs) Did they have
 ; you do—picking
 ; 
 ; up around the barracks, and―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: ―all that kind of stuff?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes. We had, um, um―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Field day?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Outside to maintain the—you know—the grass, and the bushes and
 ; whatever. Yes, that was also part of our requirement. We were to treat it like
 ; it was our home. And we would do those things if we were within our own home. So.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Had you ever gone to the Green Hat Club?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No. The Green Hat Club was after me.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Okay? I’m not sure what year. Yes, there were a lot of, uh–uh, what do
 ; you call them, um―
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: (inaudible)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —officers clubs. There were different clubs for different rank and of
 ; course I was a peon, so I―till I made sergeant, but yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: How did ch–becoming sergeant change your life?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It gave―it made me more independent.
 ; 
 ; I didn’t have to follow some of the rules and regulations.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, did you live―you said you lived in the barracks about a year. So,
 ; you lived in the–in the Staff Sergeant’s house about two?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: About two years. Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. And then what did―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Not legally, but I did. (both she and Jonason laugh.)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Well, nowadays, you’d get permissions or something. Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I’m not sure (smiles wide).
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (laughs) Um, is there any other part of that work that you’d like to
 ; share with us?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: As far as the military is concerned?
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: In a way, um, it was―I think once I left the military, I was more
 ; conscious of my responsibility when I was in the Marine Corps.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: The motto of a W.M., which we were called—Women Marines—was to release
 ; a fighting man. And of course, it was during the Vietnam War, and it was a
 ; 
 ; difficult time for the United States and for everyone. So, I didn’t think about
 ; it a lot but once I left the military, I realized what my job was or had been,
 ; to help win that war.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: You–you appreciated it more?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Much more.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And so, then when you left you got married?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes, I did.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And where did you go?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: In fact, I don’t know. I don’t remember all the times, but my husband
 ; who was stationed here at Camp Pendleton and his career was basically here,
 ; okay? He was a Gunnery Sergeant and he owned a home in Oceanside. And so, when
 ; we—naturally when we got married, I moved into his home in Oceanside.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And how long did you stay there?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (sighs) Uh, quite a few years. We didn’t move out—I guess I was there
 ; 
 ; at least five years, at least five years, and then we bought a home elsewhere in
 ; San Diego. He retired.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Why did you like San Diego?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: He liked San Diego.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did you?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes, I guess so. My children were born here. It became my home. Uh,
 ; yes. Yes. I liked it.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did you work outside the home once you were married?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I did, but not until my children got a little older. I actually went to
 ; work for the Marine Corps Exchange. (both she and Jonason laugh)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. And how long did you do that?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, now you’re asking a question you have to think about. It was a few years.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Yeah?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I would say five or six years. Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. Well, that’s good.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: What was the Marine Corps reaction to your announcement that you
 ; wanted to get married?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I–I—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh, you said—Yeah!—How did you―when you decided
 ; 
 ; to get married, there were regulations that you had to jump through before you
 ; could do that.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (chuckles) Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Both you and your husband.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Being―being a–a low rank, number one, and being a woman Marine, I had
 ; to ask permission from my C.O., the sergeant in charge, and—which I had to do.
 ; Uh, between you and me, I did it because it was considered one of my
 ; responsibilities. Otherwise, I thought it was a silly rule.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (chuckles) And your husband had to do the same thing, right?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Well, he did. He did. And my―for me, he did it for me. Not so much for
 ; himself. He’d been married before. His first wife had passed. So, um, he was a–a
 ; bit youn–older than I am or was. And um, so no he didn’t. But, he did,
 ; 
 ; for me. Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: He asked permission for you.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Right. We went together.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh! Very interesting. And were there any other situa―parts of that that
 ; were required?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No, because when we married, there–there was no problem. But because of
 ; our age, okay, we wanted a family. And the–the motto of the Marine Corps was if
 ; we wanted you to have a child, we’d issued you one.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: I see.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: So, as soon as I became pregnant, I was automatically dis–discharged.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (coughs) Excuse me.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I got an honorable discharge, but, yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Huh.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: So, that’s how I left.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Interesting. And were you―after you were married, you moved into his
 ; house. Were you still a Marine at that poin–time?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: I’m trying to clarify that.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, until I became―
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Pregnant.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: ―pregnant. Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay. (
 ; 
 ; Roberts: We lived there for two children.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (chuckles)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: He retired. He went to work for the Post Office and we moved into San
 ; Diego area.
 ; 
 ; Terry Norwood: Where were your children—(barely audible) first and second—born?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Camp Pendleton, at the old hospital.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Because he was still in the military? Or―
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No. We were―because he was what is considered a lifer, someone who put
 ; in twenty-two years of his life. He continued to have privileges—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Ah.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —military privileges.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, he wasn’t in the Corps still, when they were born?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And what did he do?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: My husband went to work for the U.S. Post Office.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm. He took the test and passed and–and continued to work there for
 ; thirty years.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Wonderful!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And I understand that you’re still living in San Diego area.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, actually I live in the same house.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (chuckles) Oh, my goodness!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Live in the same house. We bought a new home outside of Poway and I’ve
 ; lived there ever since. I think it was 1972, or something like that.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Wow! You must like it there.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It’s paid for! (she chuckles and Jonason laughs) For sure!
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Are there parts of the community that you enjoy more than others?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: In–in San Diego? San Diego?—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: In Poway, San Diego County.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, you know, I had two other children born there, and, um, it—number
 ; one, it was very new. We were one of the first housing developments in the area.
 ; So, basically, I watched it grow (raises her hands to indicate something
 ; growing) into this huge community.
 ; 
 ; And, um, I felt like it was home. And yes, I do. I like it there. I can’t think
 ; of any place else.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: (unintelligible, but sounds like “Chopped Liver”)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, I’m not sure. A pool, oh (shrugs)—as far as activities—(looking at
 ; Cortellini) is that–is that what we’re talking about? Okay—
 ; 
 ; Norwood: What do you like about the community?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh! I did—yes, I’m talking about the beginning of living in the
 ; community and why I stayed there. Uh, I’m very active. Well, I won’t say active
 ; but I have a lot of activities within the community since I’ve lived there. So—
 ; I like to swim and do water aerobics, and—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: This is a community pool, I take it? Or—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes, it is. Number one, I–I got to watch the community grow. Like I
 ; said, we were one of the first developments in the area, housing developments,
 ; and so I got to watch
 ; 
 ; it grow.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: There must be a story about being one of the first of the development.
 ; Was there—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: —an event or something?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —number one, now you want me to be silly? It was a ch—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: No. (laughs)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, okay. (laughs also) No, it was just a very new community and it was
 ; fun greeting all the new people and watching different developments grow,
 ; watching schools being built and my children being able to go to those schools.
 ; I know—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Did you get to pick specific flooring and that type of thing in your
 ; house wh—at that time? Was that something that—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Pretty much.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: —Yeah?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Pretty much so. Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I mean, the house was built and then I did what I wanted to the inside
 ; of it (smiles wide) and outside, of course.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: But that wasn’t with the builder, though. That was on your own, right?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: That was on my own.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Interesting. Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (apparently she turns to Cortellini) Are there other questions that you
 ; would like to see asked?
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Um, it would be nice if she (rest of question is inaudible, but
 ; seems to be talking about entering something into a document)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Well, we’ll have that in the–in the file. Um—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Just the fact that she left her close-knit family and friends, and
 ; her small town of Eastlake, Ohio to travel all the way to South Carolina to
 ; enlist in Marine Corps bootcamp. How brave and courageous as a young woman to
 ; make that monumental decision.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (turning her head from Cortellini back to Jonason, smiling) She does—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Well, I think she–she went in from the frying pan into the fire—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: The fire.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: —didn’t you! (laughs)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Amen! (laughs also)
 ; 
 ; Norwood: But she’s a cast iron skillet.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (turning to Norwood): Pardon me?
 ; 
 ; Norwood: But you’re a cast iron skillet.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, is that—Oh, I–I’ve never quite thought of myself that way, but—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: (continuing to laugh) Yeah, but hey—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —I will take the compliment. (turns back to Jonason)
 ; 
 ; Norwood: And the other thing I think you could give perspective on is how the
 ; military has grown since you’ve been here.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, absolutely. Uh, as–for women? Yes, absolutely. Uh, it was—we
 ; 
 ; were considered second class citizens back in 1966. Like I think I said
 ; previously, we were given the title of releasing a fighter–a fighting man, okay?
 ; And we were supposed to, uh—our jobs basically were to fill in where the men
 ; would have to leave and we would fill in and take their jobs. So, it was—it’s
 ; different today. Women join the military exactly the reason that men do. They
 ; want the—They want to do something for their country, number one. I can’t speak
 ; for all of them, but yes. I think they—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —they have the same honor and privileges that they–you–this country
 ; offers their military. So, yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: If you had a message for a young Marine today, what would it be?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Whoa! (Jonason laughs)
 ; 
 ; Um, I really wouldn’t have a message for them. It—Number one, I believe it’s
 ; something that they—nowadays—let me put it this way. Nowadays, I think both men
 ; and women join the military because they want t–to, because it offers them
 ; something that they desire. Back in the day of, say, 1966, uh, men were drafted.
 ; Okay? And women were second class citizens. But they did it anyways, (shrugs)
 ; whatever their purpose—for their country ; for themselves ; for their family. So,
 ; times have changed.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay! Well, thank you very much.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: You’re very welcome.
 ; 
 ; (the video then stops and starts, and cuts off the beginning portion of what
 ; Leslee Roberts is saying, but she continues speaking, turning to Cortellini now:)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —San Diego people. Or we could become Poway people living in San
 ; 
 ; Diego.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: Mm. Okay. And that, I can’t tell you how huge that is to the
 ; education—well, this is not necessar—this is going off on a tangent—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No, no. It had a–had a big—yes. Because—
 ; 
 ; Norwood: It did!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: just a community—
 ; 
 ; Norwood: It did.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Mira Mesa, down the road is San Diego.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: So, we were given a choice, and we made it. And we made the Poway
 ; U—part, we helped make Poway Unified School what they are.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: That right there tells—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Is key.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —what this woman is about. So, to–I–just—and—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I never thought about it, but—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: (inaudible due to Jonason asking a further question)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: So, you’re saying that there was no Poway schools when you—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Poway, yes. Poway had their own little, uh—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: No, it wasn’t.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —They didn’t even have a high—They—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: They didn’t have a—They were not a unified school district until late—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No, they weren’t. Until much later.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: But, did–did they have a school?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh yes. They had several, um, elementary schools. What was that? (turns
 ; from Jonason to Cortellini) They had Poway High—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: They had one—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: — and one middle school.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —one middle school.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: And they, and they were—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (turns to Jonason) Midland. Yeah, it was Midland. (holds up her left hand)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: They were part of Escondido. They weren’t really in their s–unified
 ; school district,—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No, they weren’t considered—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: but they were—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: But they—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It was—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: And then we had (inaudible)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It was–Actually, it was–it was considered—it was kind of a country town.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It was just this country little, country city. They were themselves,
 ; okay? And, um, they did have schools for their kids and whatnot. But that was
 ; very small, very limited. I can’t even begin to tell you—Even now, there’s only
 ; one main—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Okay. I’m st—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —road, going through Poway, and it’ll always be the main th–main road
 ; through Poway because everyone built to the sidewalks! There’s no way of
 ; widening it. (Jonason laughs) There’s no way of expanding it. (Jonason clears
 ; her throat) It’s all the way up to, uh, Ramona, bay–basically.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: So, now, I’m going to the Poway Museum and the R.B. Museum to see
 ; what historical data is there, because based on more—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Now—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —info about the school district and how it came to be, because—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: See,
 ; 
 ; now Rancho Bernardo was—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —that is really—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Rancho Bernardo was always there. It was considered more—back in
 ; (lowers voice) those (back to speaking voice) days, it was, uh, for seniors.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Seniors.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It was more of a senior place.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: It was a community planned—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: And um, yes.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: And, uh, they did attend, those that were–that lived in, say, Rancho
 ; Bernardo. They did attend the Poway school. Okay? Those were the—That was the
 ; only school district around. San Diego was a little far ou– far away for them.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: But–but it wasn’t even a formed Unified School District in the early 70s.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Till much later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Okay. And then, also, um, you’re–you’re being modest. You haven’t
 ; been asked to write your history, so I get it.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (turns to Jonason and shrugs)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: But just sitting here, I’m thinking of how you guys fought for the
 ; community center,—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, yeah.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —the pool that you swim in.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yeah. Oh, absolutely.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: You know? All the things—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: And what happened with the community center?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It was a—We wanted it. They made it. Um, (sighs) how do I say it? It–it
 ; wa–I guess—it
 ; 
 ; wasn’t—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: The city—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —exactly a community—how–how–what would you call the pool, ‘cuz I’ve
 ; been going there for twenty years.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Yeah. It was a community center.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: It was.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Um, and the city decided to change—all that nastiness out of my
 ; mouth real quick—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: You can say it. I–my ears are used to it. (Jonason chuckles)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Then, um, this—When the city decided that to change their Charter
 ; and a lot of their zoning and who they were going to support or–or–in–like–They
 ; were no longer going to have a senior center. Okay? And they were—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —no longer going to have a community pool. But the community rallied—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: But it was considered growing, and they wanted to grow into something
 ; besides Poway which we kind of fought for.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: And, yet, they didn’t want to bring in a Y.M.C.A. They wanted to be—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —their own thing and have it be bigger. But it’s just not what the
 ; people wanted at the time.
 ; 
 ; So, these ladies were part of the movement.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Well, back then, yeah, we kind of steadfast and we voted.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: How were you—How old were your kids at that time?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh they were—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Oh, this was only like ten years ago.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yeah. Well—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: But–but I—but I’ve only known you for maybe ten—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Sss—Yeah. Bu–bu–well, when they started building schools—This was the
 ; thing that–that we fought for. Number one was technically, technically I live in
 ; San Diego. Okay? But Poway is our school district. Poway is our hospitals. Poway
 ; is, you know, all the stuff that makes a city a city. We were able to stay in
 ; that group, and—well, Rancho Bernardo, too. But we—whereas just down the road
 ; about three or four miles, we have San Diego, Mira Mesa,
 ; 
 ; some of the other ones.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: It’s very—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: They’re all San Diego, so they have to follow the San Diego taxes, the
 ; San Diego whatever, whatever.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Well, we do too.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No, no, I know. But I’m trying to think of things.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: It’s very convoluted up where we are. It took me a while to wrap my
 ; head around—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Everything.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: —how in the world could we be part of Poway Unified when we’re a San
 ; Di—city of San Diego address. It was really complex.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: We—But we kind of fought for that. In fact, I can remember Mount Carmel—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Well, I’m grateful (chuckles)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: —Mount Carmel wa—uh, all the kids in my–in our area went to Poway High,
 ; went to Midland Junior High, okay? S–and–and the elementary school. And my kids
 ; started off at Me–Meadowbrook. Meadowbrook? (looks toward Jonason)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Whatever, for kindergarten through ninth, (Jonason coughs) or whatever
 ; it was, until we fought for our own schools (Jonason coughs) and our own area.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Hhm, that’s interesting.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: So, I mean, yeah. I can remember when they built
 ; 
 ; the high school.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Do you?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Carmel Mountain.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: You’re a legend in my community, girl.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (laughs) I don’t know about that, but— (Jonason laughs) we
 ; didn’t—Poway, um, was recognized as having a very good school system, okay? Or,
 ; whatever. And we wanted to continue with what Poway was giving to our students.
 ; Where San Diego was—I mean, look at San Diego. San Diego is a huge place, and
 ; it’s gotten huger, so—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Is Poway considered part of North County?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes. So—
 ; 
 ; Norwood: And, for many, many, many, many, many years, Rancho Bernardo, where I
 ; live—She lives in Poway, but sh–very close to R.B., um, but she’s not affected
 ; like we are because she’s in Poway. So, R.B. is the farthest north of San Diego.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: San Diego, yep (nodding).
 ; 
 ; Norwood: She is right
 ; 
 ; beneath us.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: On the edge, Mm-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: We are North County and we are–don’t—We have to fight for the city of
 ; San Diego to fix our streets, to—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: To do whatever.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: To–to do whatever we need—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Right.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: —because we’re so far north. They forget about us. They’ll take our tax revenue—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, they do take that!
 ; 
 ; Norwood: —but they’ll forget about us, which is one of–just one of many reasons
 ; why we wanted to integrate into our own sch–school system up there.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, no. I—
 ; 
 ; Norwood: Because it was so small, we could be more vocal. We could give more
 ; input into a smaller school district versus being a part of San Diego.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Well, parents were included. You were invited to come to the–to the
 ; school board meetings. You were, you know what I mean? You were invited to
 ; participate in becoming a school board member—I mean—so, you were part of it.
 ; Where as far as San Diego is concerned, which is—like I said—just five miles
 ; down the road, um, they were totally into, uh,
 ; 
 ; San Diego, (shrugs) Mira Mesa and all the ones around there now. So— (shrugs)
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Aah, we did that a bit, I guess. I don’t— (laughs) We fought for it.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Well, it sounds like you’re a very active person in your community.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Uh, (sighs, shaking her head), that was a long time ago. This old lady
 ; has settled in. (she and Jonason laugh) I’m not as active as I used to be.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: I just wanted to say. You know, when I first met Leslee, before I
 ; knew she was a Marine, over time, I started calling her “our fearless leader”
 ; (Roberts and Jonason laugh) at the pool, because she had this wonderful way of
 ; recruiting more people and she—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I had a mouth!
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: She singlehandedly—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: It’s a good thing!
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: She–but she s—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: When I don’t agree with you, you’re gonna hear about it. (all laugh)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: She’s still humble about it. But, she singlehandedly turned a water
 ; aerobics, or water exercise class into a family. That’s how we became friends.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yes.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Oh.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: She roped me in, and she writes–ropes in everybody!
 ; 
 ; (laughs)
 ; 
 ; Norwood: Yes. She makes you feel wanted.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: She makes you feel like a family, and then makes everyone feels
 ; welcome, and now, they—you wouldn’t believe the size of our water aerobics.
 ; We’re up to forty-plus people (somewhat unintelligible, faint voice, and there
 ; is background traffic noise)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I know.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: And that’s the summer.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Well, I think we have around, about thirty permanent, you know, oldies
 ; but goodies.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: That’s—but that’s also—
 ; 
 ; Norwood: (can’t distinguish what she says, due to crosstalk)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: In the summertime.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Seriously. I give you credit for that, and you really—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Oh, not totally. There were—
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: But, she’s—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Look at Doreen,
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: And see, that’s where
 ; 
 ; Norwood: (unintelligible, due to crosstalk)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Doreen.
 ; 
 ; (Norwood and Cortellini crosstalk ; unintelligible)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Yeah. It wasn’t just me.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: (first few words unintelligible) incorporated those values, a team and—
 ; 
 ; Jonason: You feel that? Do you feel that the Marine Corps has helped you be
 ; organized and get people together?
 ; 
 ; Roberts: I never thought about it, ‘cuz I was always a mouth.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Well, but—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: Why do you think they kicked me out of the Sisterhood.
 ; 
 ; Jonason: Because you needed to be a Marine. (laughs)
 ; 
 ; Roberts: No. Because I didn’t fit in. (laughs)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: What did we go to the Mayor’s office for?
 ; 
 ; Norwood: Oh, that was film week again. (next few words unintelligible)
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Okay.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (nodding) Yeah.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: Still! Still!
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: Leslee has—I know—Leslee has been an advocate for myself,
 ; 
 ; my project, my books. She—
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (to Jonason) Like I said, I’m a mouth.
 ; 
 ; Cortellini: She has shared my books with everybody.
 ; 
 ; Roberts: (to Jonason) And sometimes, if you’re loud enough, people just don’t
 ; say no to you.
 ; 
 ; Norwood: I called her my agent there—she still is my agent (rest of sentence is unintelligible).
 ; 
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Title
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Roberts, Leslee K. Interview November 11, 2022.
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Leslee K. Roberts, a Marine Corps veteran, who shares her experiences growing up in Ohio, deciding not to become a nun and choosing to leave Ohio by joining the U.S. Marine Corps. She discusses some military regulations, meeting and marrying her husband, and her various homes in North County. She talks about her involvement and support of the Poway community as well as Poway’s early development.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-23
Subject
The topic of the resource
Camp Pendleton (Calif.)
Korean War, 1950-1953
Switchboard operators
United States. Marine Corps
Veterans -- United States
Women marines
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-11-23
Format
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video
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Leslee K. Roberts
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Faye A. Jonason
Maryellen Cortellini
Terry Norwood
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Poway (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Leslee K. Roberts
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Veteran experience
Women's experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f49e1fc474b566146db157adf2b4fa32.pdf
f3996b4f578fa89be82fa7b47bb89d82
PDF Text
Text
CHANEL BRADLEY
TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW
2023-04-14
Michael De Maria:
My name is Michael De Maria. I’m a graduate research assistant with Kellogg Library, I'm here today
with Chanel Bradley discussing her involvement in the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM (California State
University San Marcos), as well as the Black Student Union. So to kick things off, Chanel, I just wanted to
ask about your background. I want you to talk about the community that you grew up in and kind of
describe what that was like.
Chanel Bradley:
I grew up in Orange County. I was raised by a single parent, so I moved a lot. And like for example, in
high school, I went to two different high schools (laughs). If you don't know about Orange County, it's
like predominantly a white county. And we lived in a predominantly white area, so I was normally like
one of few that looked like myself. And so I kind of quickly learned what it was like to be, other, and
found myself kind of like congregating with other others, (laughs). And that sort of became my
community. Typically, I would spend my time with like Latino and like Black students and like even at my
church, like, I went to Saddleback until I was about sixteen. I was in the choir, and my grandmother was
the choir director. And Saddleback is like a megachurch in Orange County. So she was kind of like a local
celebrity (laughs). So like people would know, like, about our family or about her. And so there was a lot
of, of colorful acquaintances. But I would say the people that I felt kind of most comfortable with how to
share like cultural experience.
De Maria:
I see. And going forward from there, what led you to attend CSU San Marcos and get involved with the
CCC (Cross-Cultural Center)?
Bradley:
So I was originally gonna go to a school in Florida. And my dad, he didn't want me to leave the state
(laughs), so it was more of a forced choice. And so, I applied to other colleges and universities in the
state. And I think we ended up picking Cal State (San Marcos) because, of the distance, I think at the
time he was living in, Rancho Santa Margarita. And so, it was very easy to kind of like go home on like
weekends or something like that. But I actually ended up living in the dorms and so I didn't go home too
often, but I started going to the Cross-Cultural Center (laughs), as most college students is motivation is
free things (laughs). So the Cross-Cultural Center had free food. And so, my friends and I were always
like trying to find the next thing that had free food. So I went to an event, I don't even remember what
the event was called. And they had so many like student services, like I could print for free. You know,
they had books that I could borrow for classes if I needed to. And, I think for me being multi-ethnic, like I
don't really fit into a particular box. And so it was nice to go to a place where like, oh, I can like get like,
you know, experiences from all walks of life. So, I think that's kind of what--why I kept coming back.
And then I served on the committee. What did I do? (whispers) It's, it's, it's like what, almost 20 years
(laughs) ago, so I have to kind of like think about it. But, I remember either like going to the CrossCultural Center director (laughs). I, I was a very adventurous college student, so I got into some trouble. I
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ended up (laughs) being convicted of a misdemeanor and my last semester of my freshman year, I
couldn't finish my exams because I was waiting for trial. So, I think what had happened was I ended up
volunteering so that I could gain work experience after that incident that I had. And so, I believe Sara
Sheikh had suggested that I assist her with the Social Justice Summit. And so I created some of the
marketing material for it. And then, I believe, maybe a year or so after that, I ended up participating on
the committee again. And I believe that same year, might have been the same year or maybe, you know,
few years after I applied to be a peer educator for the center. So that was kind of like the beginnings of
involvement (laughs) with the Cross-Cultural Center.
De Maria:
Got it. So, it sounds like the CCC just provided a positive space for you to inhabit and kind of rebuild
some elements of your life after that incident. Which I think is super, super cool. Regarding the projects
that you worked on, I'd love to hear more about the Social Justice Summit, since you were involved in
the very first one (Bradley laughs). So, if you could just take me through your experience with that, and
just, you know, what, what it was like, what was discussed, and just giving me an image of what all
occurred.
Bradley:
So, I think I remember what happened. I ended up, attending the first Social Justice Summit, as a
participant. And I, (laughs) yeah, that's what happened. I remember. Okay. (laughs) I feel like as I'm
talking, I'm remembering the timeline. So (laughs), pardon me if I'm like having to go back into the, the
files of my brain.
De Maria:
No, that's, that's good (both Laugh).
Bradley:
Yeah, so I, I was a participant. I attended the retreat with my boyfriend at the time. And--I would say I've
always been like a fairly consciously aware person like, you know, growing up in a predominantly white
area, and like knowing that I was not white, was something that I knew. But I think as you--or at least as
I grew up, you kind of learn how to adapt in those environments. And so, things that are probably like
triggering or, you know, maybe the, not the most like PC thing to say, I would kind of say to fit in or
whatever I was doing at the time. So when I went to the Social Justice Summit, it was really eye-opening
’cause they were talking about, like, individual identity. They were talking about oppression and
marginalization, which again, like I knew, but I didn't know that it existed, in like different intersects.
And--they also talked about like allyship. So I met a lot of people there that I still talk to today. Yeah,
that's, that's how I started. And then I think after that, that's when I was on the committee, the planning
committee. And I did the marketing and I pretty much just kept continuing to participate with the Social
Justice Summit because it was very impactful for me. I think it helped build my activism, if you will. It
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gave me...language to talk about my experiences. It gave me like, curriculum to teach other people
about how to start their journey or like continue their journey or, you know, come back from taking a
rest (laughs) if you will. It exposed me to like a lot of things that were happening on campus, that were
unjust. And I, because I had those experiences I felt empowered enough to not just let them happen,
but to like speak about them. I developed like lifelong mentors from that summit. I think, if I'm not
mistaken, I probably went to like three or four of them. The first one being a participant and the others I
was on the committee. And then the, the last one, I ended up--I was a co-facilitator, so.
De Maria:
Got it. Very, very cool. And I previously interviewed Sara Sheikh, so she was able to also walk me
through, a bit of that experience, but that's awesome hearing your perspective. And then regarding
some of the projects that you did for the CCC, you've previously been described by your peers as
someone who always got incredible results, but thought outside the box and didn't necessarily play by
the rules to achieve those results. So I was just curious in your own words if you had an instance of a
project or an objective you achieved where you didn't necessarily play by the rules.
Bradley:
That's funny. (laughs) I've always been like a really creative person. So--I... I like to see kind of like, what
is the baseline? And I'm like, “okay, what, what more can we do from here?” So, we had an event called
Cafe La Paz, and it was essentially a way to talk about, different cultural backgrounds and experiences, in
an interactive way. And then I believe we served food (laughs). I think all our events we serve food,
that's how you get students (laughs), make sure you get a Costco pizza and, and all the desserts and
then you will have students. But yeah, so we had to work with, or we were tasked to work with the
other centers, so the Women's Center (now Gender Equity Center) and the LGBT Pride Center, LGBTQIA,
Pride Center (laughs).
And so, I don't remember like the actual identities that we had to talk about, but it was like two or three
of them, and we had to find a way to kind of put them together. And, I like to do things where people
aren't just like listening to a lecture or watching a movie. I feel like it's, like it works if it's like twenty
minutes or something that's short. Like when you get people to move and talk and engage with each
other, I feel like that's more impactful to their learning process. So I honestly don't remember the game
or what it's called. Oh, yes, I do (laughs). So, it's a game, called mafia and, it basically simulates this like
inner and outer group and then, like people who reinforce the system and then, people who are trying
to change the system.
And so, I found a way to talk about experiences in the community or in classrooms and then incorporate
this game that I played with other college students. So, I guess that's a way of being creative and
thinking outside the box. I know I definitely broke some rules as far as my attendance goes. (Be)cause
my, my, punctuality then was not (laughs) not very good. So I guess that would probably be some ways
that I, you know, was a little bit rebellious. But I would say for the most part it was just really my
creativity that drove me to, think of things that weren't being done. So like, another example is like
when we, I think this might have been--when was this? This might have been like the second or third
social justice event that I was on the committee with.
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And we were like, thinking of names to title it, or what have you. And I'm very simple. Like I don't--I'm
not really someone that wants like a word vomit of a title, like make it impactful, how can we say this in
the fewest words possible? So I like, took--then they had the RED campaign (division of The ONE
Campaign to end extreme poverty and preventable disease by 2030). I don't know if you remember that.
De Maria:
Um-hm
Bradley:
It was a RED campaign for Apple or like, for HIV awareness, or something like that. And so in that
campaign, they put brackets over the R and the E. So I found a way to like use the word power and then
I put brackets around the word, the words W-E So it looks like, like we are the power that we, that we
want to, like we have the power, we the people have the power essentially. And so I remember making
it, and it was like, the most simple one that I had ever done in all of the designs that I had created. And I
believe that same year the registration, like was full by like the end of the day or like the next day. So
that was really cool to kind of see how something so simple can intrigue people enough to want to join
something that they probably wouldn't normally going to.
De Maria:
Absolutely. And it's super cool to hear about your art making such a tangible impact as well. Regarding
the operation of the CCC again, through my research I've heard several people kind of cite the students
as sort of like the lifeblood of the organization. The people who affected change and essentially help
those projects get off the ground. So I was just interested in hearing about what your relationships were
like with other student staff as well as your superiors?
Bradley:
So my first two years, ’cause I think I was there for three years, it’s been three years, oh my gosh
(laughs). My first couple of years. The person, did he, I think he, I think he was the one that referred for
me to apply, or it was Sara (Sheikh). I don't exactly remember. But I have a friend who's like, essentially
someone who I've been friends with since then, but his name is Gerardo Cabral or he goes by G now.
But G, I met him at that event that I said where I got the free pizza for the first time. I honestly didn't
know that it was his event. He tells me later that it was, and I was like, he's like, “Yeah, I remember you
coming in.” And (laughs) I don't even remember what I was saying, but I was like, extra, as the word that
people would use then.
And so when I started working with him, him and I started to develop a closer relationship outside of
work. He, I think at the time, like either my car wasn't working or like I had to walk to campus, and I was
living off of campus, so he would pick me up like every day. ’cause I was, I wasn't too far from campus,
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but it was far enough where, like you didn't want to walk, because as everybody knows, Cal State San
Marcos sits on a hill. So (laughs) if you're walking from off campus, and it's already far enough, like you
got (to) trek up, a mountainside to get there. And so--and this was before the (University) Student
Union, because there were like ways that you can get up without using stairs that I figured out, but the
easiest way is to take stairs.
But yeah, so became like really close to Gerardo and, I, I, I believe because of like the experience that I
had with like the incident that I had my freshman year I really connected with Sara. She like has a very
therapeutic presence. And as someone who like experienced trauma young and (laughs) very, very
colorful past it was comforting to have a supervisor that didn't really feel like a supervisor. Like she, you
know, obviously was my supervisor, but it just felt different. I've never had a supervisor where I
connected in that way. So when she left, it, it was a really big hole, like for the whole center because
everyone loved her. I mean, they still love her, like I still love her. But like me and G especially were like
basically mourning (laughs) her transition.
And I think that experience also brought us closer. I was in his wedding, like he's came to all of my
graduations, I've gone to his. So we still talk to this day. And my experience with Floyd (Lai, the next
director of the Cross-Cultural Center), because I was so connected with Sara, was definitely rocky at first.
I was so used to like a certain way, that things were, and then when Floyd came, he didn't necessarily
disrupt everything and like change everything. We kind of kept most things, if not all. But I definitely was
a little bit taken aback by having to deal with like, a, a power shift, if you will. But Floyd has always been
super supportive. And at the time I was also involved in InterVarsity, InterVarsity is a Christian student
group on campus.
I don't know if they're still there, but I had a mentor there who was telling me, he was like, “You have to
be a leader.” Like a 360 leader. Sometimes you have to lead the people that you are, that are supposed
to lead you. Not to say that Floyd didn't lead me, it was just like, because he was a new person, he kind
of came to me with like, “Okay, what information do you have? What knowledge do you have? Do you
have background information about this event or that?” And so I kind of felt like I was in a way his little
guide. And so that was new for me. I'd never been in a position where people are looking at me for
answers. So I think it helped me develop my leadership skills as a result.
And also be able to reconcile relationships too. So, some of the other like staff that I work with, I still
touch base with every once in a while, but--like when was it? Was it the 25th anniversary? I don't
remember. But there (laughs), there was a, what was it, third year? I don't remember. But I went to an
event and I came back to campus after graduating and I ran into Allie Moreno, I think she has a different
last name now, but Allie Moreno I also worked with. And she was there at the event, so I got to
reconnect with her. Same thing with Diana (Salidvar).
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I'm bad with names, so I apologize. Diana, I believe, is her name. I still like connect with her through
social media, so I--it's, it's like, a very unique time in your life when you're like, “I'm an adult,” but also
like, you're still learning. You're still learning how to be an adult, you're still learning how to function in
the world. You have to take care of yourself. Like, I had to, you know, get a job and I couldn't really rely
on my parents to help me out of situations (laughs) if you will. So I had to learn how to be resourceful.
And I think the Cross-Cultural Center gave me the resources among other, you know services that I used
on campus to survive and thrive there.
De Maria:
Yeah, absolutely. One comment on that, I will second Sara Sheikh's, therapeutic nature (both laugh).
She's, she's definitely an incredible person. And, yeah, it definitely sounds like when you were able to
kind of inhabit that role as sort of like a guide for the others in the center, it sounds like you kind of
reached a point of pride and were able to kind of reflect in your accomplishments and just some of the
things that you had done. Which I also think is super cool. Now that I've kind of jogged your memory a
little bit from those experiences, I want to know what your favorite memory of the Cross-Cultural Center
is.
Bradley:
(laughs) It's very simple. Like I--the, the one thing that my dad taught me was that you can change an
atmosphere just by stepping into the room. And so I would be very big on atmosphere, or ambiance if
you will. My friends and I call it am-Beyonce (laughs), like, because Beyonce has that, that energy and
aura to her too. And so what I would do when I would be working my shift is I would play music that I
enjoyed, and then I would ask students like, “What do you wanna listen to?” So I would kind of like be a
DJ, like a little bit (laughs). So I enjoyed just creating a welcoming space for them to come in. And I've
had students--and in a way I sort of became like a therapist come to me like stressed out about
something and they are looking for advice or guidance, or just like helping individuals who are coming in
trying to figure out like, “Oh, what's this place?” (laughs) You know? So I think that was probably my
favorite part of working at the Cult--Cross-Cultural Center, was just creating that space for students.
De Maria:
Very cool. I definitely understand that impact of ambiance, so it's definitely nice that you were able to
be a little selfless in a way and kind of provide that, that atmosphere like you mentioned. And shifting
gears here, I know that you had a heavy involvement in the Black Student Union on campus as well.
You're cited as being an individual who essentially revived that organization or had a very big hand in
reviving it from inactivity. So just starting there, I want to know what that timeline looked like and how
you got involved in that project as well.
Bradley:
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So I was in BSU (Black Student Union) my freshman year, and it was pretty active then. We had a good
amount of members. They--I would say maybe a majority of them were like upperclassmen. And so, I
think I also served on the board my second year and that's when the president Charey or Trey stepped
down and then Raja stepped up. He had a lot of great ideas and he is a really good leader. I think it's just
really hard when you're--like imagine having to be the next head, like performance after like Patti
LaBelle (laughs). You're like “How do I top that (laughs)?” So I think it was some of that that happened
with Raja, but he did a really good job at getting a lot of the structural things that organizations need.
Like they need bylaws. They need to define their roles. They need recruitment efforts. They need to
have like good soil to be able to grow. After Raja graduated, because he was also upper class, I think he
ended up graduating before myself, maybe a couple years before me. So a lot of those upperclassmen
that made up a lot of the BSU moved on. And so it was just like the underclassmen that kind of had to
step up. I think there were like, if I'm not mistaken, a couple of attempts where students tried to revive
it and then it just became inactive. I don't know how long the inactive period was, but I think during that
time I was doing a lot of on-campus like protests. I was doing a lot of things with the Cross-Cultural
Center.
I was leading Bible studies. I was, also going to school, working, like I was doing a lot. And I think it was
my Women's Studies professor, I think at the end of my like sophomore year and she was like, “What
are you gonna do about BSU?” I'm like, “What do you mean (laughs)? Like, it's not my job (laughs).” And
I think another Women's Studies professor was like, “You should try to get that organization going
again.” And I was like, “Okay” (laughs). I work with a lot of student organizations when I was a peer
educator. So I'm like, okay, I see how they do things. I know all the background information. I know who
to talk to at, Student Life and Leadership so that I can try to expedite things if I need to.
I know where to go with ASI (Associated Student Inc.) like being a student worker really exposes you to a
lot of like the administrative side of a university. So I got to be able to experience that. So when I
stepped into that role, I already had all those resources. And I knew a lot of students, so they knew who
I was. And so when I started, I had enough members to make the organization active, which I believe is
three. You need a secretary, a vice (president) and a president. We talked extensively during the
summer about like, who's going to take up what role, and what are we gonna do and how are we gonna
do things? And kind of, things like that. I originally, I believe was just gonna be a vice president, another
student wanted to be president.
And I'm like, I have no ties to any role. My only objective is to make this organization active again. And I
think it was the week or two before classes started, both of them dropped out. And I was like, I don't
know what I'm gonna do, but I'll figure this out because I'm resourceful. So, I just started reaching out to
every student that I knew. I'm like, you remember when BSU was like, and all this stuff? And just trying
to--and even new students, I was like, “You look like a leader!” I was just heavy, heavy with my
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recruitment until I finally got two people to be in the role of vice president and treasurer. And then I was
able to go to Josh at the time who was like overseeing student organizations. (laughs).
I'm like, okay, “I have all the paperwork (laughs), like can we be active now?” And then it was definitely
really rocky. It was, it was really rocky, because at the time I was like, I'm just trying to get us back into a
place where we have presence on campus cause we're here, like Black students are here, they're just
not collectively coming here. And so I also, at the same time, I'm honestly, I don't know how I did all
these things, but at the same time (laughs) while I was in, in InterVarsity, they have like a Black student
body as well within that, that organization. And so I was working with Black Student Unions at other
campuses. I was like, let me see how you all do this because your group is so big. And then I'm like, okay,
well instead of trying to motivate these students who are like, I don't want to go (laughs), I'm gonna
work with these students who already have the--already energized about meeting together about, you
know, centering Black narrative and who want to move that forward.
So we attempted to do like events together. So, I feel like a lot of people get F.O.M.O (Fear Of Missing
Out), so I'm like, if I make the event cool enough and bring enough people, they're gonna want to come.
And so I did a lot of that, and I designed the logo. I fixed the bylaws and I worked a lot with other
students because I was like, I think this was like my, ‘cause this was my senior year, I had to do all of this
my senior year, graduate, you know, look for a job, all those things. And so I kind of searched for the
next presidents. I was like, “Hey, you have the potential. Come with me to this event, I think you would
benefit from it.” And I invested time in their development, like, not to pressure you, but I am leaving
(laughs) so, it would be great if someone could step into these roles.
And so I remember my last year and no one really what was stepping up and I was like, I just have to
leave it and hope that it works out. So I went to my mentor, Roger, who at the time was the director of
the LGBT Center and I was like, “Can you do me a favor?” (laughs) Can you, because he's an agitator, he,
he will make sure like something gets done. So I was like, “Can you please make sure that someone
steps up? Cause I'm, I'm graduating, like I can't do any more past this.” So yeah, that was, that was a lot
(laughs).
De Maria:
Yeah. It definitely sounds like you, kind of once again used out of the box style thinking to try and ensure
the future of the organization and the health of the organization, which is definitely, definitely needed
(laughs) in situations like that. Regarding the relationship between those organizations and just in
general on our campus, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with these
different organizations devoted to identity expression? Like, what kind of role do you think it inhabits
and still inhabits?
Bradley:
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So, I don't remember the name of it, but my friend G was trying to start like a council for all like,
multicultural student organizations to meet--to board leaders to meet together and be able to have a
space to discuss issues or concerns or what have you together like a, quasi-United Nations (laughs), if
you will. So I think that was the first time I kind of saw the way that the Cross-Cultural (Center) can
collaborate, and empower, and equip student organizations to not only self-express, but also to address
matters that are important for them. Or how to just really have representation. Because I think that was
really important. Like, for me, coming from a place where there wasn't that growing up, like I remember
(laughs), I remember going to the Career Center on campus and there was this--stand and repeat, and it
had a Black student on it.
And then I don't remember what the language was underneath it, but it basically implied as what I had
interpreted of it, was that like, Black students aren't gonna get employed, something like that. And I was
like, “You have to change that.” (laughs) That's not gonna work. Like, that's not gonna bring Black
students in here. You need to show them, themselves in the careers that they want, because they're out
there. There are successful people of color. And so--I mean, same thing with like posters around
campus. I'm like, “Who made that? There's not enough people that look diverse enough for that to be
representing our campus.” So yeah I think it, it, it equips and empowers, not only like the board
members on those--because like we had free printing. The Student Life and Leadership Center had a
place where you could make a-frames, like you could make the materials that you need.
Like you didn't have to do everything out of pocket. And especially for marginalized, you know minority
groups. Sometimes money is not something that you have to just make materials for. I remember
(laughs) the biggest thing for like, I feel like students tend to get behind is like, “Do I get a T-shirt
(laughs)?” If you have swag for them, they're like, “Yeah, I'll definitely show up.” So I was like, we need
to get T-shirts for Black Student Union. And because I was a student, because I worked, or you know,
worked at the Cross-Cultural Center and I knew the resources they had available, I was like, “I know
what website to make it on. I can order them. I can have them, have it done. I know where to go to get
scholarships for our group.” So I think, that is what's really like, special about that relationship with, you
know, centers who work with student organizations.
De Maria:
Yeah, totally. That's super cool. I heard on swag, that is definitely a great way to get, to get people in
through the door and get your message heard, funnily enough. My next set of questions and the, the
questions that we'll kind of wrap up on are a little bit more abstract. So I just wanted to ask you how
your experiences with Cross-Cultural Center, as well as Black Student Union on that note, impacted your
professional path and what you currently do?
Bradley:
So I'm, I'm sort of in a career transition space, so I wouldn't necessarily say that those experiences
impacted my profession. I would say they impacted me personally and my politics. I think it opened my
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eyes to a lot of different things, organizations, what people are doing in the community and it motivated
me to serve the community in a different way. Right after college, I ended up going on a missions trip in
Fresno, and seeing poverty in a different way. And I also worked with Inner City Youth in Escondido as
well as here in Central San Diego. So I think it definitely shaped my passion for development. And I guess
in some ways I still sort of do that in my role now. But my job I would say is, more like financially driven
decisions versus passions and what sort of shaped me there.
But after--I believe it, after (George) Floyd was murdered? I think it was during the pandemic like, 2020,
when that whole bit happened. I mean I was going to protests before then. Like I went to the Women's
March, I went to some other protests as well. I even brought some of my students (laughs). I was like,
“This is what a protest is.” And so when that happened in the pandemic, it just, it's hard because it's like
wrapped around tragedy, you know, these things that are so unjust that it, (laughs) I was telling my
therapist that I have like an--eloquent rage. Like I want (laughs) to do things in a certain way that will
affect change in the system that's already existing. Sometimes I do want to be very radical, but also I just
don't want like Black people to keep dying, you know?
And so I actually ended up kind of getting my boyfriend at the time into that too. I think he had always
been like into it, but the way that he would protest is virtually. And I'm like, come see what it's like
grassroots. Because It's a different feeling. And so we went in our cars, and we went up to like La Jolla
and came back to central San Diego and then went all the way down to National City as a protest. And
there was like hundreds of cars, it was all over the news. We had made posters. It was like a huge thing.
And I feel like, that moment kind of reminded me of when I was at the Social Justice Summits and
watching someone's lightbulb turn on almost like, oh wow, like this is what it, what it's like, l being in
solidarity with other, with others and wanting the change that we need.
We don't want individuals to be brutalized and murdered by individuals that we thought we could trust
to keep us safe, you know? And so I get, I get chills thinking about it. I remember there was one student,
he was like, “How can you just get up there and like, speak on the mic and not be afraid?” And I'm like,
“I am afraid!” I'm very afraid, but I also don't want this to happen anymore. It's not okay. And so I would
rather be afraid and find the courage to get through it, than be afraid and do nothing.
De Maria:
Absolutely. And I'm sorry, it's just super profound (laughs) super profound things that you're talking
about. And also just so much value in being able to relate those experiences back together. And also,
again, tangibly seeing results from, your own efforts make--be them personal or professional. So very,
very cool. Just a few more questions left. What direction do you think the Cross-Cultural Center should
grow in?
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�CHANEL BRADLEY
TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW
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Bradley:
I visit like maybe every, two or three years (both laughs). So I don't know what the last three years have
been because I, the la--I think the last time I went to campus was like maybe (20)17 or (20)18. So it's
been a while since I've been there. And it's a different, it's a different vibe than how it was when I was
there. We were like a smaller center, you know, we didn't have this beautiful (University) Student Union.
We had the Commons, and if anyone knows what the Commons are, there were these small little
rooms, (laughs) that we just made work, you know? And they would be filled with students. And so I
remember seeing the blueprints of this Student Union. And for me, I'm just like, “This is awesome!” I
feel like I was, you know, part of the building blocks of this, and I'm just honestly proud of how things
have evolved.
I will say (laughs) the, this is maybe not necessarily like the Cross-Cultural Center, but I've heard that the
parking permits there are ridiculous. Like, for passes, like I go, I, I got my master's at University of San
Diego, their annual passes are under a hundred dollars. And so to have a parking pass that's $600 or
something like that, I was like, that's wild. If I was there, I'd be protesting about it. This is ridiculous. Like,
what are you, let me see your (laughs), let me see your expenditure sheets, let me see your multi-year
budget plans, because this doesn't make sense, like it should not be that expensive. I really don't know
what the student activism looks like. You know, I know that when I was there that a lot of people kind of
saw the Cross-Cultural Center as like a Pan-Asian space, because that's kind of a lot of the students that
would come to that space.
And so when I was there, I was like, I want to see everybody (laughs). I want to go and like find where
you guys are and let you know, this is here, like MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan)
come over, you know, Black students come over. I'd be like, “Okay, what movie do you want to see?
(laughs) I'm about to put it on the TV. You know, like make you feel comfortable. So yeah, I think that's
kind of something that was needed then. I don't know what it's like now. I know when I kind of like
popped in it's--there was mostly Asian students there, but you know, I think as long as students are
using the space, I think that's what matters most. That's what it's there for. I think it's great that you
know, peer educators can, I don't know if they're doing this now, but when I was there, I would go into
classrooms and I would teach curriculum to students about identity and allyship.
So I hope that they're still doing stuff like that because there are situations where I--where it impacts
the world, it impacts, you know, that, that macrocosm. And in turn we, you know, sometimes professors
don't know what to say and some of those students might be having a hard time being present, learning
about, I don't know, whatever subject, like microorganisms, (laughs), you know what I mean? And so
how can you as a professor tie in like what's going on in the world to address it, but also like be there for
the students in a way that, you know, maybe is not necessarily like a savior complex, but in a way that's
supportive. Like “I see you, I see that, you know, this could be something that, you may or may not be
noticing in life or affected by, but there's this place where you can go,” or like bringing in those students
to those classrooms. And nothing against the hard sciences. We love math, we love science. But you
know, sometimes those spaces are very black and white and the Cross-Cultural Center lives in a gray
space. And so to be able to show students that and help them with identity development, because like I
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TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW
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said, college is such a unique time. You’re a quasi-adult, but not really. And you have to take on all these
responsibilities in addition to graduating. So.
De Maria:
Yeah. Absolutely. My next question, and again this is going to kind of reference the current landscape of
CSUSM. So don't worry if you can't think of like a super accurate answer or anything. You can also
comment about the time, like around the time that you graduated and moved on. But what
communities do you feel are underrepresented on campus?
Bradley:
Hmm... I don't really know. I know like when I was a student... so, I know I, I definitely got involved with
like undocumented students ’cause that experience was something that I personally didn't have like
experience in. But I had a friend, several friends, who were undocumented. And I remember going to
Social Justice Summit and having that lightbulb. And we were talking about undocumented students and
I was like, “Oh my God.” Like I drove one of my friends who I know is undocumented and I didn't have
like (laughs), this is again, me living rebelliously. I was driving, and my license plate was expired or
something like that? And I was like, “Oh my gosh.” If I had gotten pulled over and this police officer
wasn't chill, I could have endangered my friend. And so, I think it grew my like empathy for that
community.
I remember their group was like, sort of active, sort of not, at the time when I was a student. I think
MEChA-DeMaria:
Um-hmm.
Bradley:
Is such a big organization like nationally that sometimes the undocumented experience kind of becomes
adjacent to that. So one of the friends that I was referring to, I believe she served in a leadership role
for, I don't remember what the name of that undocumented student organization was, but I remember
her talking about that and kind of trying to differentiate that group as a result. I also have another friend
that I still talk to today. She created an organization called Et Cetera. And her whole goal was to be a
catchall for the others. Like you're not really feeling like a certain cultural identity. Like maybe you don't
want to be in the math group, like maybe you don't want to be in a fraternity, like come to Et Cetera
(laughs). And so I thought that that was really cool that she wanted to create a space for individuals who
either like myself live in like a duality, or others who just maybe don't identify in a particular space.
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TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW
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De Maria:
Totally. I have two questions left to just wrap things up. So first one, what is the most important lesson
you've taken from your experience with the Cross-Cultural Center?
Bradley:
There were so many lessons (both laughs). Definitely difficult to pick one. I think I, I, I learned my power.
And at that time I learned a, that I had power and leadership potential, but also that how to use it, in a
way that would affect change. Like I remember when--I hope that this tabloid paper doesn't exist on
that campus anymore. Because If it does, I'm driving (laughs) to make sure it's not there. But--they, it
was called The Koala. The Koala also existed on I think UCSD (University of California San Diego), but
basically it was a tabloid paper, and they would just write, just excuse my language, but like, bullshit
about people, about groups, about minority groups. And they're like, “Oh, but it's satire.” And I'm like,
“This still doesn't make it okay.” I was such an agitator to them that they put me in one of their editions.
And so I remember noticing that this was not okay, you know, me stepping into my power and then I
protested by myself. I was like, I'm gonna stand next to you. I'm not gonna say anything, but I'm gonna
hold this sign up, and I'm gonna stand next to you, so that other people understand that this is not okay
and that you shouldn't be passing this out on campus. And like my friends were like coming up to me
and they're like, “Oh my gosh, like you are so awesome for doing this." And I connected with other
campuses and I'm like, “What are you guys doing about this (laughs) paper?” Because you know, such
and such. And then I remember other people kind of in solidarity doing other things to expose the
students and who are doing these salacious things, like who the editor was (laughs). They wrote it on
the steps, like the steps that are next to the clock.
They wrote the names of all the members in the organization. This person is in it and this person is in it
and they want to hide, but (laughs), they're not gonna hide. We're gonna bring them to light. They
actually bit their--put their own shoe in their mouth. But I think the editor attempted to run for ASI
president.
De Maria:
Right?
Bradley:
And if he had accomplished his goal, that paper would've been basically passed out, like how the Cougar
News (student newspaper) gets passed out. But he ended up (laughs) fraud, like basically doing identity
theft and faking votes so that he could win. So I was like, “Well, not only did you lose, but you also are
gonna have to be prosecuted for like 500 counts of identity theft.” And that's a federal offense (laughs).
So I think it was a mixture of, you know, stepping into my power, but also knowing that I have, like I
have a cap, I have a battery, at some point my battery is gonna go down and I need to recharge.
Transcribed by
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TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW
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So I think that was another lesson that I learned, was like how to recharge, how to self-preserve.
Because I know there were times that I was doing a lot of things. And even just thinking about it, I was
like, “That sounds like a lot like (laughs). When did you have you time?” I remember there was a point
where I had stopped making such a fuss about that paper, and there was a student who was doing a
class project where they were interviewing people about that paper. And I was like, I wrote in the
comments, I was like, “Don't stop agitating, keep going.” So even in my time of preservation, I was still
encouraging others to develop their power and what they found to be important for them.
De Maria:
Yeah. So comments on that. That's a really crazy intense story. And also just on a personal level, I'm glad
that you were there to be the initial agitator essentially. And you know, just, affect that change, like how
you said. So that's definitely a demonstration of power (laughs) used responsibly and for a good end.
Bradley:
Yeah.
De Maria:
Which is very, very cool. For my final question, I want to relate back to something you said at the very
beginning of the interview. You described feeling like an other in your community growing up in Orange
County. So, I just would like to know, as someone who has also felt like an other growing up in a
community, if someone feels that way, what tips or advice would you give them to start agitating or get
involved in social justice?
Bradley:
I mean--I feel like my experiences as an other sort of like, I describe it like a butterfly, because I am like-ambiguous (laughs) physically and mentally. I just kind of butterfly my way through groups and I learn
from all those experiences. So being an other doesn't necessarily have to define you into the other box.
It can give you capacity to be in every box. I remember my sister for those demographic questions
where they're like, “What race are you?” And she was like, “I just check all of them!” (laughs) So in a way
you just check all of them. You can go into this group, you can go into that group and people would
welcome me, like regardless. So that was like really nice, to experience. But also I think--
I don't know if every school campus has like a Social Justice Summit type of thing, but I honestly think
that something like that definitely informs the way that you develop in your social justice identity or
your social justice, activism. But honestly, you could, just join a march, like when they had the Women's
March or I think there was another march for all of the like school shootings that were happening that
were student led. Just being a part of grassroots organizations can shape that activist part in individuals
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�CHANEL BRADLEY
TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW
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as well as shaping identity, you know. But I think what I noticed in school (laughs) is when you learn
about other cultures, especially in American history, it's terrible. They don't really put you into this really
wonderful light. It's like genocide, slavery, and then President Obama (laughs).
And you're like, okay--but where's all the in between? And so, you know, even just having literature, I
would hope you know that the Kellogg Library has a lot of options, but I had friends who gave me
literature that helped me to develop that part of myself and to see--people who looked like me that
were successful, but also people who were affecting change. Who were women, who were, you know,
minority groups, who were young. I think for me, growing up in a single parent household, you want to,
or at least for me, I wanted to see a strong woman and like my grandma, she's definitely a part of my
strong personality, but also it's like different when it's not your mom. And so for me, I was like looking
for that maternal figure and so I found it a lot in supervisors, or professors, and I was like, that's the kind
of woman that I want to be, who doesn't just sit and let things happen but will be willing to stand up for
what I believe in.
De Maria:
I think that's excellent advice. And again, just, a manifestation of taking pride in your identity rather than
allowing that box or that label to define you or your actions, even if those actions are advantageous to
social justice. So I completely get that.
Bradley:
Yeah
De Maria:
And with that, I know that we're at time. So I just wanted to thank you for taking the time out for this
interview, Chanel. We definitely covered a lot, in terms of your personal experience, and I also learned a
lot more about the CCC as I continue to interview more people for this project and kind of embark on
this journey myself. So overall, just wanted to thank you for opening up and allowing others to be part
of that experience and kind of understand what you went through and what you did.
Bradley:
Yeah, definitely. Well, if you want any contacts for other people--who to interview or if you have
enough, that's cool too. (Both laugh) If you want some of the OGs, (De Maria laughs) I still talk to them.
De Maria:
Absolutely. We'll talk offline, but (both laugh)
Transcribed by
Geneva Martinot
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�CHANEL BRADLEY
TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW
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Bradley:
Yeah.
De Maria:
Thank you so much Chanel
Bradley:
You’re welcome, okay.
Transcribed by
Geneva Martinot
16
2023-10-06
�
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Transcripts
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Bradley, Chanel. Interview transcript. April 14, 2023.
Description
An account of the resource
Chanel Bradley is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Women's and Gender Studies in 2012. Chanel worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2012 and was involved in various social identity related causes on campus. In this interview, Chanel discusses her experience as a peer educator at the Cross-Cultural Center and her recollections of the center during her time at CSUSM. Bradley was also involved in the Women's Center [now Gender Equity Center]. In her interview, Bradley also recalls how she revived the campus Black Student Union, protested the unauthorized student newspaper, The Koala, and came into her power.
Creator
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Chanel Bradley
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Michael De Maria
Geneva Martinot
Date
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2023-04-12
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California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
Civil rights
Civil rights demonstrations -- California -- San Marcos
Education, Higher
Human rights
Minorities in higher education
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San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University University Library
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English
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Chanel Bradley
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text
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BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14_transcript
Activists and activism
Black experience
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
Women's experience
-
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Oral History
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Interviewer
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Michael De Maria
Interviewee
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Chanel Bradley
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RED Campaign;Social Justice Summits;Cross-Cultural Center peer mentorship
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5.4 Bradley, Chanel. Interview April 14th, 2023. SC027-35 01:12:01 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection Campus oral histories CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Civil rights Civil rights demonstrations -- California -- San Marcos RED Campaign ; Social Justice Summits ; Cross-Cultural Center peer mentorship Chanel Bradley Michael De Maria BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14.mp4 1:|11(3)|19(12)|31(6)|39(13)|49(3)|56(13)|63(2)|75(13)|88(9)|99(1)|108(5)|116(13)|129(12)|136(17)|147(10)|157(2)|167(15)|181(5)|193(7)|204(14)|217(11)|228(3)|240(7)|252(2)|262(13)|273(11)|285(3)|297(5)|308(7)|322(2)|329(14)|341(2)|352(11)|364(12)|375(10)|386(17)|397(8)|409(4)|420(6)|432(3)|440(10)|450(10)|460(5)|473(8)|485(5)|493(12)|502(3)|511(12)|521(2)|531(8)|540(5)|550(6)|563(3)|576(15)|588(2)|600(5)|611(2)|619(6)|633(2)|644(11)|654(14)|665(9)|679(11)|693(19)|704(9)|720(3)|730(8)|741(12)|750(11)|760(9)|771(11)|798(3)|800(1) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d4ea6df2420ccf154c84a6af1258992a.mp4 Other video 0 Interview Introduction Michael De Maria interviews Chanel Bradley in regards to her background and experience at California State University San Marcos. 0 24 Childhood Bradley discusses growing up in a predominately white community in Orange County and how she formed community there. 0 152 Choosing to attend CSUSM and get involved in Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) Bradley's parents wanted her close to home so she chose to attend CSUSM and live in the dorms. She originally attended the CCC due to all of its free resources but soon enjoyed the diverse community it created. Bradley soon began volunteering due to obtaining a misdemeanor but eventually applied as a peer educator at the center a few years later. Sara Sheikh ; Social Justice Summit ; multi-ethnic 0 458 First Social Justice Summit Experience/ Finding Her Voice Bradley discusses how as growing up she would often suppress her identity as a person of color to fit in. By attending the Social Justice Summit it gave her ways to express herself and to feel empowered within her identity. empowered ; Social Justice Summit 0 736 Using Her Creativity to Drive the CCC Bradley discusses how her creative nature was able to be put into practice at the CCC. She used games and slogans to help educate and encourage students to find their power. power ; impactful ; peer mentorship 0 1124 Staff Relationship/ Developing leadership skills Bradley explains how supervisors and staff at the CCC had a close connection due to cultural similarities and beliefs. She explains how when there was a change in management at the CCC, Bradley became the one that guided the new supervisor. This helped her to gain leadership skills and relationship skills as well. leadership ; leader ; relationships ; mentor ; Floyd Lai 0 1640 Creating a Welcoming Space Bradley explains how her favorite memory was being able to create an ambiance that made students feel represented and safe. welcoming ; ambiance ; atmosphere ; guidance 0 1760 Reviving Black Student Union Bradley discusses how she revived the Black Student Union after its inactivity. She explains how her experience with the CCC provided her with resources and knowledge to begin an organization. She fixed the bylaws, encouraged protests, and recruited members for the board. protests ; BSU ; organization ; Black Student Union 0 2364 The role of the Cross-Cultural Center Bradley explains how the Cross-Cultural Center aids various organizations on campus by equipping, empowering, and helping with self expression and representation. empower ; equip ; educate ; represent 0 2674 Impact of the Cross-Cultural Center/ Finding the Courage Bradley explains how the Cross-Cultural Center opened her eyes up and helped her mature politically and socially. It gave her the passion to speak up and educate others about social issues that are often suppressed. politics ; serve 0 3045 Current Direction of the Cross-Cultural Center Bradley explains how the growth of our campus should also be focused and centered on the students needs. either being socially, politically or financially focused. She talks about how professors should remain personable and bring current situations into the curriculum. activism ; identity ; allyship ; protesting 0 3387 Underrepresented Communities on Campus Bradley discusses how the undocumented experience becomes adjacent to the Chicano student movement. She recalls the Et Cetera club, a student organization that created space for those who may not identify with other organizations at that time. undocumented ; under represented ; duality ; Et Cetera club 0 3616 Lessons Learned From Cross-Cultural Center Bradley was taught that not only she had power and leadership potential but how to use it as well. She exercised her power by speaking up against a paper writing false claims towards minority groups. She also discusses how she learned to recharge as an affective leader. power ; protest ; minority ; self preserve 0 3965 How to Practice Your Voice Bradley explains how one should educate themselves, and get involved in social groups that represent them as a minority. To stand up for what one believes in and to not let a box or label define you. 0 Chanel Bradley is a California State University San Marcos alumni. She graduated with her degree in Women's and Gender Studies in 2012. Chanel worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2012 and was involved in various social identity related centers on campus. In this interview, Chanel discusses her experience as a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center and her recollections of the center during her time at CSUSM. Bradley was also involved in the Women's Center [now Gender Equity Center]. In her interview, Bradley also recalls how she revived the campus Black Student Union, protested the campus (unauthorized) student newspaper, The Koala, and came into her power. Michael De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I’m a graduate research assistant
 ; with Kellogg Library, I'm here today with Chanel Bradley discussing her
 ; involvement in the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM (California State University
 ; San Marcos), as well as the Black Student Union. So to kick things off, Chanel,
 ; I just wanted to ask about your background. I want you to talk about the
 ; community that you grew up in and kind of describe what that was like.
 ; 
 ; Chanel Bradley: I grew up in Orange County. I was raised by a single parent, so
 ; I moved a lot. And like for example, in high school, I went to two different
 ; high schools (laughs). If you don't know about Orange County, it's like
 ; predominantly a white
 ; 
 ; county. And we lived in a predominantly white area, so I was normally like one
 ; of few that looked like myself. And so I kind of quickly learned what it was
 ; like to be, other, and found myself kind of like congregating with other others,
 ; (laughs). And that sort of became my community. Typically, I would spend my time
 ; with like Latino and like Black students and like even at my church, like, I
 ; went to Saddleback until I was about sixteen. I was in the choir, and my
 ; grandmother was the choir director. And Saddleback is like a megachurch in
 ; 
 ; Orange County. So she was kind of like a local celebrity (laughs). So like
 ; people would know, like, about our family or about her. And so there was a lot
 ; of, of colorful acquaintances. But I would say the people that I felt kind of
 ; most comfortable with how to share like cultural experience.
 ; 
 ; De Maria: I see. And going forward from there, what led you to attend CSU San
 ; Marcos and get involved with the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center)?
 ; 
 ; Bradley: So I was originally gonna go to a school in Florida. And my dad, he
 ; didn't want me to leave the state (laughs), so it was more of a forced choice.
 ; And so, I applied to other
 ; 
 ; colleges and universities in the state. And I think we ended up picking Cal
 ; State (San Marcos) because, of the distance, I think at the time he was living
 ; in, Rancho Santa Margarita. And so, it was very easy to kind of like go home on
 ; like weekends or something like that. But I actually ended up living in the
 ; dorms and so I didn't go home too often, but I started going to the
 ; Cross-Cultural Center (laughs), as most college students' motivation is free
 ; things (laughs). So the Cross-Cultural Center had free food. And so, my friends
 ; 
 ; and I were always like trying to find the next thing that had free food. So I
 ; went to an event, I don't even remember what the event was called. And they had
 ; so many like student services, like I could print for free. You know, they had
 ; books that I could borrow for classes if I needed to. And, I think for me being
 ; multi-ethnic, like I don't really fit into a particular box. And so it was nice
 ; to go to a place where like, oh, I can like get like, you know, experiences from
 ; all walks of life. So, I think that's kind of what--why I kept coming back.
 ; 
 ; And then I
 ; 
 ; served on the committee. What did I do? (whispers) It's, it's, it's like what,
 ; almost 20 years (laughs) ago, so I have to kind of like think about it. But, I
 ; remember either like going to the Cross-Cultural Center director (laughs). I, I
 ; was a very adventurous college student, so I got into some trouble. I ended up
 ; (laughs) being convicted of a misdemeanor and my last semester of my freshman
 ; year, I couldn't finish my exams because I was waiting for trial. So,
 ; 
 ; I think what had happened was I ended up volunteering so that I could gain work
 ; experience after that incident that I had. And so, I believe Sara Sheikh had
 ; suggested that I assist her with the Social Justice Summit. And so I created
 ; some of the marketing material for it. And then, I believe, maybe a year or so
 ; after that, I ended up participating on the committee again. And I believe that
 ; same year,
 ; 
 ; might have been the same year or maybe, you know, few years after I applied to
 ; be a peer educator for the center. So that was kind of like the beginnings of
 ; involvement (laughs) with the Cross-Cultural Center.
 ; 
 ; De Maria: Got it. So, it sounds like the CCC just provided a positive space for
 ; you to inhabit and kind of rebuild some elements of your life after that
 ; incident. Which I think is super, super cool. Regarding the projects that you
 ; worked on, I'd love to hear more about the Social Justice Summit, since you were
 ; involved in the very first one (Bradley laughs). So, if you could just take me
 ; through your experience with that, and just, you know, what, what it was like,
 ; what was discussed, and just giving me an image of what all occurred.
 ; 
 ; Bradley: So, I think I remember what happened. I ended up, attending the first
 ; Social Justice Summit, as a participant. And I, (laughs) yeah, that's what
 ; happened. I remember. Okay. (laughs) I feel like as I'm talking, I'm remembering
 ; the timeline. So (laughs), pardon me if I'm like having to go back into the, the
 ; files of my brain.
 ; 
 ; De Maria: No, that's, that's good (both Laugh).
 ; 
 ; Bradley: Yeah, so I, I was a participant. I attended the retreat with my
 ; boyfriend at the time. And--I would say I've always been like a fairly
 ; consciously aware person like, you know, growing up in a predominantly white
 ; area, and like knowing that I was not white,
 ; 
 ; was something that I knew. But I think as you--or at least as I grew up, you
 ; kind of learn how to adapt in those environments. And so, things that are
 ; probably like triggering or, you know, maybe the, not the most like PC thing to
 ; say, I would kind of say to fit in or whatever I was doing at the time. So when
 ; I went to the Social Justice Summit, it was really eye-opening ’cause they were
 ; talking about, like, individual identity. They were talking about oppression and
 ; marginalization, which again, like I knew, but I didn't know that it existed, in
 ; like different intersects.
 ; 
 ; And--they
 ; 
 ; also talked about like allyship. So I met a lot of people there that I still
 ; talk to today. Yeah, that's, that's how I started. And then I think after that,
 ; that's when I was on the committee, the planning committee. And I did the
 ; marketing and I pretty much just kept continuing to participate with the Social
 ; Justice Summit because it was very impactful for me. I think it helped build my
 ; activism, if you will. It gave me...language to talk about my experiences. It
 ; gave me like, curriculum to teach other people about how to start their journey
 ; or like continue their journey
 ; 
 ; or, you know, come back from taking a rest (laughs) if you will. It exposed me
 ; to like a lot of things that were happening on campus, that were unjust. And I,
 ; because I had those experiences I felt empowered enough to not just let them
 ; happen, but to like speak about them. I developed like lifelong mentors from
 ; that summit. I think, if I'm not mistaken, I probably went to like three or four
 ; of them. The first one being a participant and the others I was on the
 ; committee. And then the, the last one, I ended up--I was a co-facilitator,
 ; 
 ; so.
 ; 
 ; De Maria: Got it. Very, very cool. And I previously interviewed Sara Sheikh, so
 ; she was able to also walk me through, a bit of that experience, but that's
 ; awesome hearing your perspective. And then regarding some of the projects that
 ; you did for the CCC, you've previously been described by your peers as someone
 ; who always got incredible results, but thought outside the box and didn't
 ; necessarily play by the rules to achieve those results. So I was just curious in
 ; your own words if you had an instance of a project or an objective you achieved
 ; where you didn't necessarily play by the rules.
 ; 
 ; Bradley: That's funny. (laughs) I've always been like a really creative person.
 ; 
 ; So--I... I like to see kind of like, what is the baseline? And I'm like, “okay,
 ; what, what more can we do from here?” So, we had an event called Cafe La Paz,
 ; and it was essentially a way to talk about, different cultural backgrounds and
 ; experiences, in an interactive way. And then I believe we served food (laughs).
 ; I think all our events we serve food, that's how you get students (laughs), make
 ; sure you get a Costco pizza and, and all the desserts and then you will have students.
 ; 
 ; But yeah, so we had to work with, or we were tasked to work with the other
 ; centers, so the Women's Center (now Gender Equity Center) and the LGBT Pride
 ; Center, LGBTQIA, Pride Center (laughs).
 ; 
 ; And so, I don't remember like the actual identities that we had to talk about,
 ; but it was like two or three of them, and we had to find a way to kind of put
 ; them together. And, I like to do things where people aren't just like listening
 ; to a lecture or watching a movie. I feel like it's, like it works if it's like
 ; twenty minutes or something that's short. Like when you get people to move and
 ; talk and engage with each other, I feel like that's
 ; 
 ; more impactful to their learning process. So I honestly don't remember the game
 ; or what it's called. Oh, yes, I do (laughs). So, it's a game, called mafia and,
 ; it basically simulates this like inner and outer group and then, like people who
 ; reinforce the system and then, people who are trying to change the system.
 ; 
 ; And so, I found a way to talk about experiences in the community or in
 ; classrooms and then incorporate this game that I played with other college
 ; students. So, I guess that's a way of being creative and thinking outside the
 ; box. I
 ; 
 ; know I definitely broke some rules as far as my attendance goes. (Be)cause my,
 ; my, punctuality then was not (laughs) not very good. So I guess that would
 ; probably be some ways that I, you know, was a little bit rebellious. But I would
 ; say for the most part it was just really my creativity that drove me to, think
 ; of things that weren't being done. So like, another example is like when we, I
 ; think this might have been--when was this? This might have been like the second
 ; or third social justice event that I was on the committee with.
 ; 
 ; And we were like, thinking of names to title it, or what have you. And
 ; 
 ; I'm very simple. Like I don't--I'm not really someone that wants like a word
 ; vomit of a title, like make it impactful, how can we say this in the fewest
 ; words possible? So I like, took--then they had the RED campaign (division of The
 ; ONE Campaign to end extreme poverty and preventable disease by 2030). I don't
 ; know if you remember that.
 ; 
 ; De Maria: Um-hm
 ; 
 ; Bradley:It was a RED campaign for Apple or like, for HIV awareness, or something
 ; like that. And so in that campaign, they put brackets over the R and the E. So I
 ; found a way to like use the word power and then I put brackets around the word,
 ; the words W-E So it looks like, like we are the power that we, that we want to,
 ; like we have the power,
 ; 
 ; we the people have the power essentially. And so I remember making it, and it
 ; was like, the most simple one that I had ever done in all of the designs that I
 ; had created. And I believe that same year the registration, like was full by
 ; like the end of the day or like the next day. So that was really cool to kind of
 ; see how something so simple can intrigue people enough to want to join something
 ; that they probably wouldn't normally going to.
 ; 
 ; De Maria: Absolutely. And it's super cool to hear about your art making such a
 ; tangible impact as well. Regarding the operation of the CCC again, through my
 ; research I've heard several people kind of cite the students as sort of like the
 ; lifeblood of the organization. The people who
 ; 
 ; affected change and essentially help those projects get off the ground. So I was
 ; just interested in hearing about what your relationships were like with other
 ; student staff as well as your superiors?
 ; 
 ; Bradley: So my first two years, ’cause I think I was there for three years, it’s
 ; been three years, oh my gosh (laughs). My first couple of years. The person, did
 ; he, I think he, I think he was the one that referred for me to apply, or it was
 ; Sara (Sheikh). I don't exactly remember. But I have a friend who's like,
 ; essentially someone who I've been friends with since then, but his name is
 ; Gerardo Cabral or he goes by G now. But G, I met him at
 ; 
 ; that event that I said where I got the free pizza for the first time. I honestly
 ; didn't know that it was his event. He tells me later that it was, and I was
 ; like, he's like, “Yeah, I remember you coming in.” And (laughs) I don't even
 ; remember what I was saying, but I was like, extra, as the word that people would
 ; use then.
 ; 
 ; And so when I started working with him, him and I started to develop a closer
 ; relationship outside of work. He, I think at the time, like either my car wasn't
 ; working or like I had to walk to campus, and I was living off of campus, so he
 ; would pick me up like every day. ’cause I was, I wasn't too far from campus, but
 ; it was far enough where, like you didn't want to walk, because as everybody
 ; knows, Cal State San Marcos sits on a hill. So (laughs)
 ; 
 ; if you're walking from off campus, and it's already far enough, like you got
 ; (to) trek up, a mountainside to get there. And so--and this was before the
 ; (University) Student Union, because there were like ways that you can get up
 ; without using stairs that I figured out, but the easiest way is to take stairs.
 ; 
 ; But yeah, so became like really close to Gerardo and, I, I, I believe because of
 ; like the experience that I had with like the incident that I had my freshman
 ; year I really connected with Sara. She like has a very therapeutic presence. And
 ; as someone who like experienced trauma young and (laughs) very, very colorful
 ; past it was
 ; 
 ; comforting to have a supervisor that didn't really feel like a supervisor. Like
 ; she, you know, obviously was my supervisor, but it just felt different. I've
 ; never had a supervisor where I connected in that way. So when she left, it, it
 ; was a really big hole, like for the whole center because everyone loved her. I
 ; mean, they still love her, like I still love her. But like me and G especially
 ; were like basically mourning (laughs) her transition.
 ; 
 ; And I think that experience also brought us closer. I was in his wedding, like
 ; he's came to all of my graduations, I've gone to his. So we still talk to this
 ; day. And my experience with Floyd (Lai, the next director of the Cross-Cultural
 ; Center), because I was so connected with
 ; 
 ; Sara, was definitely rocky at first. I was so used to like a certain way, that
 ; things were, and then when Floyd came, he didn't necessarily disrupt everything
 ; and like change everything. We kind of kept most things, if not all. But I
 ; definitely was a little bit taken aback by having to deal with like, a, a power
 ; shift, if you will. But Floyd has always been super supportive. And at the time
 ; I was also involved in InterVarsity, InterVarsity is a Christian student group
 ; on campus.
 ; 
 ; I don't know if they're still there, but I had a mentor there who was telling
 ; me, he was like, “You have to be a leader.” Like a 360 leader. Sometimes you
 ; have to
 ; 
 ; lead the people that you are, that are supposed to lead you. Not to say that
 ; Floyd didn't lead me, it was just like, because he was a new person, he kind of
 ; came to me with like, “Okay, what information do you have? What knowledge do you
 ; have? Do you have background information about this event or that?” And so I
 ; kind of felt like I was in a way his little guide. And so that was new for me.
 ; I'd never been in a position where people are looking at me for answers. So I
 ; think it helped me develop my leadership skills as a result.
 ; 
 ; And also be able to reconcile relationships too. So, some of the other
 ; 
 ; like staff that I work with, I still touch base with every once in a while,
 ; but--like when was it? Was it the 25th anniversary? I don't remember. But there
 ; (laughs), there was a, what was it, third year? I don't remember. But I went to
 ; an event and I came back to campus after graduating and I ran into Allie Moreno,
 ; I think she has a different last name now, but Allie Moreno I also worked with.
 ; And she was there at the event, so I got to reconnect with her. Same thing with
 ; Diana (Salidvar).
 ; 
 ; I'm bad with names, so I apologize. Diana, I believe, is her name. I still like
 ; connect with her through social media, so I--it's, it's like, a
 ; 
 ; very unique time in your life when you're like, “I'm an adult,” but also like,
 ; you're still learning. You're still learning how to be an adult, you're still
 ; learning how to function in the world. You have to take care of yourself. Like,
 ; I had to, you know, get a job and I couldn't really rely on my parents to help
 ; me out of situations (laughs) if you will. So I had to learn how to be
 ; resourceful. And I think the Cross-Cultural Center gave me the resources among
 ; other, you know services that I used on campus to survive and thrive there.
 ; 
 ; De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. One comment on that, I will second Sara Sheikh's,
 ; therapeutic nature (both laugh). She's, she's definitely an incredible person.
 ; And, yeah, it
 ; 
 ; definitely sounds like when you were able to kind of inhabit that role as sort
 ; of like a guide for the others in the center, it sounds like you kind of reached
 ; a point of pride and were able to kind of reflect in your accomplishments and
 ; just some of the things that you had done. Which I also think is super cool. Now
 ; that I've kind of jogged your memory a little bit from those experiences, I want
 ; to know what your favorite memory of the Cross-Cultural Center is.
 ; 
 ; Bradley: (laughs) It's very simple. Like I--the, the one thing that my dad
 ; taught me was that you can change an atmosphere just by stepping into the room.
 ; And so I would be very big on atmosphere, or ambiance if you will. My friends
 ; and I call it am-Beyonce
 ; 
 ; (laughs), like, because Beyonce has that, that energy and aura to her too. And
 ; so what I would do when I would be working my shift is I would play music that I
 ; enjoyed, and then I would ask students like, “What do you wanna listen to?” So I
 ; would kind of like be a DJ, like a little bit (laughs). So I enjoyed just
 ; creating a welcoming space for them to come in. And I've had students--and in a
 ; way I sort of became like a therapist come to me like stressed out about
 ; something and they are looking for advice or guidance, or just like helping
 ; individuals who are coming in trying to figure out like, “Oh, what's this
 ; place?” (laughs) You know? So I think that was probably my favorite part of
 ; working at the Cult--Cross-Cultural Center, was just
 ; 
 ; creating that space for students.
 ; 
 ; De Maria: Very cool. I definitely understand that impact of ambiance, so it's
 ; definitely nice that you were able to be a little selfless in a way and kind of
 ; provide that, that atmosphere like you mentioned. And shifting gears here, I
 ; know that you had a heavy involvement in the Black Student Union on campus as
 ; well. You're cited as being an individual who essentially revived that
 ; organization or had a very big hand in reviving it from inactivity. So just
 ; starting there, I want to know what that timeline looked like and how you got
 ; involved in that project as well.
 ; 
 ; Bradley: So I was in BSU (Black Student Union) my freshman year, and it was
 ; pretty active
 ; 
 ; then. We had a good amount of members. They--I would say maybe a majority of
 ; them were like upperclassmen. And so, I think I also served on the board my
 ; second year and that's when the president Charey or Trey stepped down and then
 ; Raja stepped up. He had a lot of great ideas and he is a really good leader. I
 ; think it's just really hard when you're--like imagine having to be the next
 ; head, like performance after like Patti LaBelle (laughs). You're like “How do I top
 ; 
 ; that (laughs)?” So I think it was some of that that happened with Raja, but he
 ; did a really good job at getting a lot of the structural things that
 ; organizations need.
 ; 
 ; Like they need bylaws. They need to define their roles. They need recruitment
 ; efforts. They need to have like good soil to be able to grow. After Raja
 ; graduated, because he was also upper class, I think he ended up graduating
 ; before myself, maybe a couple years before me. So a lot of those upperclassmen
 ; that made up a lot of the BSU moved on. And so it was just like the
 ; underclassmen that kind of had to step up. I think there were like, if I'm not
 ; mistaken, a
 ; 
 ; couple of attempts where students tried to revive it and then it just became
 ; inactive. I don't know how long the inactive period was, but I think during that
 ; time I was doing a lot of on-campus like protests. I was doing a lot of things
 ; with the Cross-Cultural Center.
 ; 
 ; I was leading Bible studies. I was, also going to school, working, like I was
 ; doing a lot. And I think it was my Women's Studies professor, I think at the end
 ; of my like sophomore year and she was like, “What are you gonna do about BSU?”
 ; I'm like, “What do you mean (laughs)? Like, it's not my job (laughs).” And I
 ; think another Women's Studies professor was like, “You should try to
 ; 
 ; get that organization going again.” And I was like, “Okay” (laughs). I work with
 ; a lot of student organizations when I was a peer educator. So I'm like, okay, I
 ; see how they do things. I know all the background information. I know who to
 ; talk to at, Student Life and Leadership so that I can try to expedite things if
 ; I need to.
 ; 
 ; I know where to go with ASI (Associated Student Inc.) like being a student
 ; worker really exposes you to a lot of like the administrative side of a
 ; university. So I got to be able to experience that. So when I stepped into that
 ; role, I already had all those resources. And I knew a lot of students, so they
 ; knew who I was. And so when I started, I had enough
 ; 
 ; members to make the organization active, which I believe is three. You need a
 ; secretary, a vice (president) and a president. We talked extensively during the
 ; summer about like, who's going to take up what role, and what are we gonna do
 ; and how are we gonna do things? And kind of, things like that. I originally, I
 ; believe was just gonna be a vice president, another student wanted to be president.
 ; 
 ; And I'm like, I have no ties to any role. My only objective is to make this
 ; organization active again. And I think it was the week or two before classes
 ; started, both of them dropped out. And I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna
 ; do, but I'll figure this out because I'm resourceful. So,
 ; 
 ; I just started reaching out to every student that I knew. I'm like, you remember
 ; when BSU was like, and all this stuff? And just trying to--and even new
 ; students, I was like, “You look like a leader!” I was just heavy, heavy with my
 ; recruitment until I finally got two people to be in the role of vice president
 ; and treasurer. And then I was able to go to Josh at the time who was like
 ; overseeing student organizations. (laughs).
 ; 
 ; I'm like, okay, “I have all the paperwork (laughs), like can we be active now?”
 ; And then it was definitely really rocky. It was, it was really rocky, because at
 ; the time I was like, I'm just trying to get us back into a place where we
 ; 
 ; have presence on campus cause we're here, like Black students are here, they're
 ; just not collectively coming here. And so I also, at the same time, I'm
 ; honestly, I don't know how I did all these things, but at the same time (laughs)
 ; while I was in, in InterVarsity, they have like a Black student body as well
 ; within that, that organization. And so I was working with Black Student Unions
 ; at other campuses. I was like, let me see how you all do this because your group
 ; is so big. And then I'm like, okay, well instead of trying to motivate these
 ; students who are like, I don't want to go (laughs), I'm gonna work with these
 ; students who already have the--already energized about meeting together about,
 ; you know, centering Black narrative and who want
 ; 
 ; to move that forward.
 ; 
 ; So we attempted to do like events together. So, I feel like a lot of people get
 ; F.O.M.O (Fear Of Missing Out), so I'm like, if I make the event cool enough and
 ; bring enough people, they're gonna want to come. And so I did a lot of that, and
 ; I designed the logo. I fixed the bylaws and I worked a lot with other students
 ; because I was like, I think this was like my, ‘cause this was my senior year, I
 ; had to do all of this my senior year, graduate, you know, look for a job, all
 ; those things. And so I kind of searched for the next presidents. I was like,
 ; “Hey, you have the potential. Come with me to this event, I think you would
 ; benefit from it.” And
 ; 
 ; I invested time in their development, like, not to pressure you, but I am
 ; leaving (laughs) so, it would be great if someone could step into these roles.
 ; 
 ; And so I remember my last year and no one really what was stepping up and I was
 ; like, I just have to leave it and hope that it works out. So I went to my
 ; mentor, Roger, who at the time was the director of the LGBT Center and I was
 ; like, “Can you do me a favor?” (laughs) Can you, because he's an agitator, he,
 ; he will make sure like something gets done. So I was like, “Can you please make
 ; sure that someone steps up? Cause I'm, I'm graduating, like I can't do any more
 ; past this.” So yeah, that was,
 ; 
 ; that was a lot (laughs).
 ; 
 ; De Maria: Yeah. It definitely sounds like you, kind of once again used out of
 ; the box style thinking to try and ensure the future of the organization and the
 ; health of the organization, which is definitely, definitely needed (laughs) in
 ; situations like that. Regarding the relationship between those organizations and
 ; just in general on our campus, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center
 ; playing as it coexists with these different organizations devoted to identity
 ; expression? Like, what kind of role do you think it inhabits and still inhabits?
 ; 
 ; Bradley: So, I
 ; 
 ; don't remember the name of it, but my friend G was trying to start like a
 ; council for all like, multicultural student organizations to meet--to board
 ; leaders to meet together and be able to have a space to discuss issues or
 ; concerns or what have you together like a, quasi-United Nations (laughs), if you
 ; will. So I think that was the first time I kind of saw the way that the
 ; Cross-Cultural (Center) can collaborate, and empower, and equip student
 ; organizations to not only self-express, but also to address matters
 ; 
 ; that are important for them. Or how to just really have representation. Because
 ; I think that was really important. Like, for me, coming from a place where there
 ; wasn't that growing up, like I remember (laughs), I remember going to the Career
 ; Center on campus and there was this--stand and repeat, and it had a Black
 ; student on it.
 ; 
 ; And then I don't remember what the language was underneath it, but it basically
 ; implied as what I had interpreted of it, was that like, Black students aren't
 ; gonna get employed, something like that. And I was like,
 ; 
 ; “You have to change that.” (laughs) That's not gonna work. Like, that's not
 ; gonna bring Black students in here. You need to show them, themselves in the
 ; careers that they want, because they're out there. There are successful people
 ; of color. And so--I mean, same thing with like posters around campus. I'm like,
 ; “Who made that? There's not enough people that look diverse enough for that to
 ; be representing our campus.” So yeah I think it, it, it equips and empowers, not
 ; only like the board members on those--because like we had free printing. The
 ; Student Life and Leadership Center had a place where you could make a-frames,
 ; like you could make the
 ; 
 ; materials that you need.
 ; 
 ; Like you didn't have to do everything out of pocket. And especially for
 ; marginalized, you know minority groups. Sometimes money is not something that
 ; you have to just make materials for. I remember (laughs) the biggest thing for
 ; like, I feel like students tend to get behind is like, “Do I get a T-shirt
 ; (laughs)?” If you have swag for them, they're like, “Yeah, I'll definitely show
 ; up.” So I was like, we need to get T-shirts for Black Student Union. And because
 ; I was a student, because I worked, or you know, worked at the Cross-Cultural
 ; Center and I knew the resources they had available, I was like, “I know what
 ; website to make it on. I can order them. I can have them, have it done. I know
 ; where to go to get scholarships for our
 ; 
 ; group.” So I think, that is what's really like, special about that relationship
 ; with, you know, centers who work with student organizations.
 ; 
 ; De Maria: Yeah, totally. That's super cool. I heard on swag, that is definitely
 ; a great way to get, to get people in through the door and get your message
 ; heard, funnily enough. My next set of questions and the, the questions that
 ; we'll kind of wrap up on are a little bit more abstract. So I just wanted to ask
 ; you how your experiences with Cross-Cultural Center, as well as Black Student
 ; Union on that note, impacted your professional path and what you currently do?
 ; 
 ; Bradley: So I'm, I'm sort
 ; 
 ; of in a career transition space, so I wouldn't necessarily say that those
 ; experiences impacted my profession. I would say they impacted me personally and
 ; my politics. I think it opened my eyes to a lot of different things,
 ; organizations, what people are doing in the community and it motivated me to
 ; serve the community in a different way. Right after college, I ended up going on
 ; a missions trip in Fresno, and seeing poverty in a different way. And I also
 ; worked with Inner City Youth in Escondido as well as here in
 ; 
 ; Central San Diego. So I think it definitely shaped my passion for development.
 ; And I guess in some ways I still sort of do that in my role now. But my job I
 ; would say is, more like financially driven decisions versus passions and what
 ; sort of shaped me there.
 ; 
 ; But after--I believe it, after (George) Floyd was murdered? I think it was
 ; during the pandemic like, 2020, when that whole bit happened. I mean I was going
 ; to protests before
 ; 
 ; then. Like I went to the Women's March, I went to some other protests as well. I
 ; even brought some of my students (laughs). I was like, “This is what a protest
 ; is.” And so when that happened in the pandemic, it just, it's hard because it's
 ; like wrapped around tragedy, you know, these things that are so unjust that it,
 ; (laughs) I was telling my therapist that I have like an--eloquent rage. Like I
 ; want (laughs) to do things in a certain way that will affect change in the
 ; system that's already existing. Sometimes I do want to be very radical, but also
 ; I just don't want like Black people to keep dying, you know?
 ; 
 ; And so I actually ended up kind of getting my boyfriend at the time into that
 ; too. I think he had always been like into it, but the way that he would protest
 ; is virtually. And I'm like, come see what it's like grassroots. Because It's a
 ; different feeling. And so we went in our cars, and we went up to like La Jolla
 ; and came back to central San Diego and then went all the way down to National
 ; City as a protest. And there was like hundreds of cars, it was all over the
 ; news. We had made posters. It was like a huge thing. And I feel like, that
 ; moment kind of reminded me of when I was at the Social Justice Summits and
 ; watching someone's
 ; 
 ; lightbulb turn on almost like, oh wow, like this is what it, what it's like, l
 ; being in solidarity with other, with others and wanting the change that we need.
 ; 
 ; We don't want individuals to be brutalized and murdered by individuals that we
 ; thought we could trust to keep us safe, you know? And so I get, I get chills
 ; thinking about it. I remember there was one student, he was like, “How can you
 ; just get up there and like, speak on the mic and not be afraid?” And I'm like,
 ; “I am afraid!” I'm very afraid, but I also don't want this to happen anymore.
 ; It's not okay. And so I would rather
 ; 
 ; be afraid and find the courage to get through it, than be afraid and do nothing.
 ; 
 ; De Maria: Absolutely. And I'm sorry, it's just super profound (laughs) super
 ; profound things that you're talking about. And also just so much value in being
 ; able to relate those experiences back together. And also, again, tangibly seeing
 ; results from, your own efforts make--be them personal or professional. So very,
 ; very cool. Just a few more questions left. What direction do you think the
 ; Cross-Cultural Center should grow in?
 ; 
 ; Bradley: I visit like maybe every, two or three years (both laughs). So I don't
 ; know what the last three years have been because I, the la--I think the last
 ; time I went to campus was like maybe (20)17 or (20)18. So it's been a while
 ; since I've been there. And it's a different, it's a different vibe than how it
 ; was when I was there. We were like a smaller center, you know, we didn't have
 ; this beautiful (University) Student Union. We had the Commons, and if anyone
 ; knows what the Commons are, there were these small little rooms, (laughs) that
 ; we just made work, you know? And they would be filled with students. And so I
 ; remember seeing the blueprints of this
 ; 
 ; Student Union. And for me, I'm just like, “This is awesome!” I feel like I was,
 ; you know, part of the building blocks of this, and I'm just honestly proud of
 ; how things have evolved.
 ; 
 ; I will say (laughs) the, this is maybe not necessarily like the Cross-Cultural
 ; Center, but I've heard that the parking permits there are ridiculous. Like, for
 ; passes, like I go, I, I got my master's at University of San Diego, their annual
 ; passes are under a hundred dollars. And so to have a parking pass that's $600 or
 ; something like that, I was like, that's wild. If I was there, I'd be protesting
 ; about it. This is ridiculous. Like, what are you, let me see your (laughs), let
 ; me see your expenditure sheets, let me see your multi-year budget plans, because
 ; this doesn't make
 ; 
 ; sense, like it should not be that expensive. I really don't know what the
 ; student activism looks like. You know, I know that when I was there that a lot
 ; of people kind of saw the Cross-Cultural Center as like a Pan-Asian space,
 ; because that's kind of a lot of the students that would come to that space.
 ; 
 ; And so when I was there, I was like, I want to see everybody (laughs). I want to
 ; go and like find where you guys are and let you know, this is here, like MEChA
 ; (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan) come over, you know, Black students
 ; come over. I'd be like, “Okay, what movie do you want to see? (laughs) I'm about
 ; to put it on the TV. You know, like make you feel comfortable. So yeah, I think
 ; that's kind of something that was needed then. I don't know what it's like now.
 ; I know when I kind of like popped in it's--there was mostly Asian students there,
 ; 
 ; but you know, I think as long as students are using the space, I think that's
 ; what matters most. That's what it's there for. I think it's great that you know,
 ; peer educators can, I don't know if they're doing this now, but when I was
 ; there, I would go into classrooms and I would teach curriculum to students about
 ; identity and allyship.
 ; 
 ; So I hope that they're still doing stuff like that because there are situations
 ; where I--where it impacts the world, it impacts, you know, that, that macrocosm.
 ; And in turn we, you know, sometimes professors don't know what to say and some
 ; of those students might be having a hard time being present, learning about, I
 ; don't know,
 ; 
 ; whatever subject, like microorganisms, (laughs), you know what I mean? And so
 ; how can you as a professor tie in like what's going on in the world to address
 ; it, but also like be there for the students in a way that, you know, maybe is
 ; not necessarily like a savior complex, but in a way that's supportive. Like “I
 ; see you, I see that, you know, this could be something that, you may or may not
 ; be noticing in life or affected by, but there's this place where you can go,” or
 ; like bringing in those students to those classrooms. And nothing against the
 ; hard sciences. We love math, we love science. But you know, sometimes those
 ; spaces are very black and white and the Cross-Cultural Center lives in a gray
 ; space. And so to be able to show students that and help them with identity
 ; development, because like I said,
 ; 
 ; college is such a unique time. You’re a quasi-adult, but not really. And you
 ; have to take on all these responsibilities in addition to graduating. So.
 ; 
 ; De Maria: Yeah. Absolutely. My next question, and again this is going to kind of
 ; reference the current landscape of CSUSM. So don't worry if you can't think of
 ; like a super accurate answer or anything. You can also comment about the time,
 ; like around the time that you graduated and moved on. But what communities do
 ; you feel are underrepresented on campus?
 ; 
 ; Bradley: Hmm...
 ; 
 ; I don't really know. I know like when I was a student... so, I know I, I
 ; definitely got involved with like undocumented students ’cause that experience
 ; was something that I personally didn't have like experience in. But I had a
 ; friend, several friends, who were undocumented. And I remember going to Social
 ; Justice Summit and having that lightbulb. And we were talking about undocumented
 ; students and I was like, “Oh my God.” Like I drove one of my friends who I know
 ; is undocumented and I didn't have
 ; 
 ; like (laughs), this is again, me living rebelliously. I was driving, and my
 ; license plate was expired or something like that? And I was like, “Oh my gosh.”
 ; If I had gotten pulled over and this police officer wasn't chill, I could have
 ; endangered my friend. And so, I think it grew my like empathy for that community.
 ; 
 ; I remember their group was like, sort of active, sort of not, at the time when I
 ; was a student. I think MEChA--
 ; 
 ; DeMaria: Um-hmm.
 ; 
 ; Bradley: Is such a big organization like nationally that sometimes the
 ; undocumented experience kind of becomes adjacent to that. So one of the friends
 ; that I
 ; 
 ; was referring to, I believe she served in a leadership role for, I don't
 ; remember what the name of that undocumented student organization was, but I
 ; remember her talking about that and kind of trying to differentiate that group
 ; as a result. I also have another friend that I still talk to today. She created
 ; an organization called Et Cetera. And her whole goal was to be a catchall for
 ; the others. Like you're not really feeling like a certain cultural identity.
 ; Like maybe you don't want to be in the math group, like maybe you don't want to
 ; be in a fraternity, like come to Et Cetera (laughs). And so I thought that that
 ; was really cool that she wanted to create a space for individuals who either
 ; like myself live in like a duality, or others who just
 ; 
 ; maybe don't identify in a particular space.
 ; 
 ; De Maria: Totally. I have two questions left to just wrap things up. So first
 ; one, what is the most important lesson you've taken from your experience with
 ; the Cross-Cultural Center?
 ; 
 ; Bradley: There were so many lessons (both laughs). Definitely difficult to pick
 ; one. I think I, I, I learned my power. And at that time I learned a, that I had
 ; power and leadership potential, but also that how to use it, in a way
 ; 
 ; that would affect change. Like I remember when--I hope that this tabloid paper
 ; doesn't exist on that campus anymore. Because If it does, I'm driving (laughs)
 ; to make sure it's not there. But--they, it was called The Koala. The Koala also
 ; existed on I think UCSD (University of California San Diego), but basically it
 ; was a tabloid paper, and they would just write, just excuse my language, but
 ; like, bullshit about people, about groups, about minority groups. And they're
 ; like, “Oh, but it's satire.” And I'm like, “This still doesn't make it okay.” I
 ; was such an agitator to them that they put me in one of their editions.
 ; 
 ; And so I remember noticing that this was not
 ; 
 ; okay, you know, me stepping into my power and then I protested by myself. I was
 ; like, I'm gonna stand next to you. I'm not gonna say anything, but I'm gonna
 ; hold this sign up, and I'm gonna stand next to you, so that other people
 ; understand that this is not okay and that you shouldn't be passing this out on
 ; campus. And like my friends were like coming up to me and they're like, “Oh my
 ; gosh, like you are so awesome for doing this." And I connected with other
 ; campuses and I'm like, “What are you guys doing about this (laughs) paper?”
 ; Because you know, such and such. And then I remember other people kind of in
 ; solidarity doing other things to expose the students and who are doing these
 ; salacious things, like who the editor was (laughs). They wrote it on the steps,
 ; like the steps that are next to the clock.
 ; 
 ; They wrote the names of all the members in the organization.
 ; 
 ; This person is in it and this person is in it and they want to hide, but
 ; (laughs), they're not gonna hide. We're gonna bring them to light. They actually
 ; bit their--put their own shoe in their mouth. But I think the editor attempted
 ; to run for ASI president.
 ; 
 ; De Maria:
 ; 
 ; Right?
 ; 
 ; Bradley: And if he had accomplished his goal, that paper would've been basically
 ; passed out, like how the Cougar News (student newspaper) gets passed out. But he
 ; ended up (laughs) fraud, like basically doing identity theft and faking votes so
 ; that he could win. So I was like, “Well, not only did you lose, but you also are gonna
 ; 
 ; have to be prosecuted for like 500 counts of identity theft.” And that's a
 ; federal offense (laughs). So I think it was a mixture of, you know, stepping
 ; into my power, but also knowing that I have, like I have a cap, I have a
 ; battery, at some point my battery is gonna go down and I need to recharge.
 ; 
 ; So I think that was another lesson that I learned, was like how to recharge, how
 ; to self-preserve. Because I know there were times that I was doing a lot of
 ; things. And even just thinking about it, I was like, “That sounds like a lot
 ; like (laughs). When did you have you time?” I remember there was a point where I
 ; had stopped making such a fuss about that paper,
 ; 
 ; and there was a student who was doing a class project where they were
 ; interviewing people about that paper. And I was like, I wrote in the comments, I
 ; was like, “Don't stop agitating, keep going.” So even in my time of
 ; preservation, I was still encouraging others to develop their power and what
 ; they found to be important for them.
 ; 
 ; De Maria: Yeah. So comments on that. That's a really crazy intense story. And
 ; also just on a personal level, I'm glad that you were there to be the initial
 ; agitator essentially. And you know, just, affect that change, like how you said.
 ; So that's definitely a demonstration of power (laughs) used responsibly and for
 ; a good end.
 ; 
 ; Bradley: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; De Maria: Which
 ; 
 ; is very, very cool. For my final question, I want to relate back to something
 ; you said at the very beginning of the interview. You described feeling like an
 ; other in your community growing up in Orange County. So, I just would like to
 ; know, as someone who has also felt like an other growing up in a community, if
 ; someone feels that way, what tips or advice would you give them to start
 ; agitating or get involved in social justice?
 ; 
 ; Bradley: I mean--I feel like my experiences as an other sort of like, I describe
 ; it like a butterfly, because I am like--ambiguous
 ; 
 ; (laughs) physically and mentally. I just kind of butterfly my way through groups
 ; and I learn from all those experiences. So being an other doesn't necessarily
 ; have to define you into the other box. It can give you capacity to be in every
 ; box. I remember my sister for those demographic questions where they're like,
 ; “What race are you?” And she was like, “I just check all of them!” (laughs) So
 ; in a way you just check all of them. You can go into this group, you can go into
 ; that group and people would welcome me, like regardless. So that was like really
 ; nice, to experience. But also I think--
 ; 
 ; I don't know if every school campus has like a Social Justice
 ; 
 ; Summit type of thing, but I honestly think that something like that definitely
 ; informs the way that you develop in your social justice identity or your social
 ; justice, activism. But honestly, you could, just join a march, like when they
 ; had the Women's March or I think there was another march for all of the like
 ; school shootings that were happening that were student led. Just being a part of
 ; grassroots organizations can shape that activist part in individuals as well as
 ; shaping identity, you know. But I think what I noticed in school (laughs) is
 ; when you learn about other cultures, especially in American history, it's
 ; 
 ; terrible. They don't really put you into this really wonderful light. It's like
 ; genocide, slavery, and then President Obama (laughs).
 ; 
 ; And you're like, okay--but where's all the in between? And so, you know, even
 ; just having literature, I would hope you know that the Kellogg Library has a lot
 ; of options, but I had friends who gave me literature that helped me to develop
 ; that part of myself and to see--people who looked like me that were successful,
 ; but also people who were affecting change. Who were women, who were, you know,
 ; minority groups, who were young. I think for me,
 ; 
 ; growing up in a single parent household, you want to, or at least for me, I
 ; wanted to see a strong woman and like my grandma, she's definitely a part of my
 ; strong personality, but also it's like different when it's not your mom. And so
 ; for me, I was like looking for that maternal figure and so I found it a lot in
 ; supervisors, or professors, and I was like, that's the kind of woman that I want
 ; to be, who doesn't just sit and let things happen but will be willing to stand
 ; up for what I believe in.
 ; 
 ; De Maria: I think that's excellent advice. And again, just, a manifestation of
 ; taking pride in your identity rather than allowing that box or
 ; 
 ; that label to define you or your actions, even if those actions are advantageous
 ; to social justice. So I completely get that.
 ; 
 ; Bradley: Yeah
 ; 
 ; De Maria: And with that, I know that we're at time. So I just wanted to thank
 ; you for taking the time out for this interview, Chanel. We definitely covered a
 ; lot, in terms of your personal experience, and I also learned a lot more about
 ; the CCC as I continue to interview more people for this project and kind of
 ; embark on this journey myself. So overall, just wanted to thank you for opening
 ; up and allowing others to be part of that experience and kind of understand what
 ; you went through and what you did.
 ; 
 ; Bradley:
 ; 
 ; Yeah, definitely. Well, if you want any contacts for other people--who to
 ; interview or if you have enough, that's cool too. (Both laugh) If you want some
 ; of the OGs, (De Maria laughs) I still talk to them.
 ; 
 ; De Maria: Absolutely. We'll talk offline, but (both laugh)
 ; 
 ; Bradley: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; De Maria: Thank you so much Chanel
 ; 
 ; Bradley: You’re welcome,
 ; 
 ; okay.
 ; 
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Title
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Bradley, Chanel. Interview April 14th, 2023.
Description
An account of the resource
Chanel Bradley is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Women's and Gender Studies in 2012. Chanel worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2012 and was involved in various social identity-related causes on campus. In this interview, Chanel discusses her experience as a peer educator at the Cross-Cultural Center and her recollections of the center during her time at CSUSM. Bradley was also involved in the Women's Center [now Gender Equity Center]. In her interview, Bradley also recalls how she revived the campus Black Student Union, protested the unauthorized student newspaper, The Koala, and came into her power.
Identifier
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SC027-35
Subject
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California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
Education, Higher
Human rights
Civil rights
Civil rights demonstrations -- California -- San Marcos
Minorities in higher education
Date
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2023-04-14
Format
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video
Creator
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Bradley, Chanel
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
De Maria, Michael
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
San Marcos (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Chanel Bradley
Activists and activism
Black experience
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
Women's experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/747be3f849be63b46622662e44e0c283.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
Transcript
Tanis Brown: Okay. So, today is February 2nd, 2023, and this is a part of the North County Oral
History Initiative. My name is Tanis Brown, and today I will be interviewing Sharon Jenkins. So,
hi Sharon. Thanks very much for coming in today. You and I have been friends for a long time,
but there are some things about you that I don’t really know. So, I’d like to find out a little bit
more about your San Marcos story.
Sharon Jenkins: Right. Thanks for having me, Tanis. This—I’m excited you’re doing this.
Brown: Good. Well, I’d like to start from the beginning. Where were you born, Sharon?
Jenkins: I was born in Quincy, Massachusetts—
Brown: Oh my gosh.
Jenkins: —and I moved from Quincy when I was very young. I don’t even know how young,
less than five. And I moved to Scituate, Massachusetts. And I lived there until 1971, when we
moved to San Marcos.
Brown: Okay. So, you came to San Marcos in 1971, and would you still have been going to
school at that time?
Jenkins: So, yes. I started San Marcos High School in 1971 as a freshman.
Brown: Okay. And the school was just ten years old at that time, so—
Jenkins: Yes.
Brown: —it was a new school.
Jenkins: Yes, very small.
Brown: How many students in the–in the graduating class, Sharon?
Jenkins: So, I don’t remember the number. I would guess maybe less than two hundred.
Brown: Mm-hmm.
Jenkins: I know when we graduated, we could sit on the visitor’s side of the bleachers in the old
gym.
Brown: (chuckles)
Jenkins: So, that’s how small we were.
Brown: Okay. Did you have a football team and everything, and—
Jenkins: We had a football team, yes, yes.
Brown: All right. So, any changes between the east coast and coming to the west coast?
Jenkins: I think I was so young that I probably didn’t understand what those changes were.
�Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: Um, I remembered it–I remembered feeling like it was very, um, —things were very
scattered here, and–and not very busy.
Brown: Oh, compared to the east coast.
Jenkins: Right, right.
Brown: Interesting. Um, so other than changing coasts, do you have any other childhood
memories that stick out in your mind that maybe you carry forward today, or any traits about
yourself?
Jenkins: I would say, as far as high school and that era, um, making–making friends that some of
them I still have as friends today.
Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: San Marcos was very small back then. So, um, there was a lot of people connected and,
even though we’re much larger today, a lot of those connections are still in place. When I moved
here there were, I believe, less than 10,000 people in San Marcos.
Brown: Wow. That’s so cool. And you actually moved to Lake San Marcos when you first came
here?
Jenkins: Yes, I did. I moved to Lake San Marcos. Um, that’s where my parents purchased a
house. And my dad was a pilot and commuted to L.A. when he needed to fly. And, um, he
decided on Lake San Marcos because he felt that it was such a great, safe community. And he
had a friend in Escondido who told him that San Marcos had a new high school and had a very
good reputation. So, that’s another reason why he–he picked San Marcos.
Brown: Okay. Oh, that’s interesting. So, Lake San Marcos was kind of an entity unto itself when
it was first constructed and was highly touted as a–a kind of upscale community. Did you–did
you notice any of that growing up in terms of–of students or residents of San Marcos? Did you
always feel yourself a part of the community of San Marcos?
Jenkins: Yes, always. So, when I moved there, as I look back, I think there were less than five
children living in Lake San Marcos, because it was a retirement community back then. And most
of the homes that are there today were not there. It was m–majority was empty lots that homes
hadn’t been constructed yet—
Brown: Okay
Jenkins: —um, along the streets. (nods her head)
Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: So, I think the big thing I noticed, um, was very few—in fact, I don’t eve–I think I only
knew one or two—other kids that lived there, but always felt it was a part of San Marcos to me.
(nods her head again)
�Brown: Okay. That’s great. Okay. So, just in terms of the overall community of San Marcos back
in 1971 and during your high school years, wha–what were the big deals? What was–what was
the city like at that time for you growing up?
Jenkins: Um, I was—since I was new to the community—I didn’t have some of the connections
that many of the other kids had that had been through school from however young. Um, so I
think some of the connections were um, um, you know, as you made friends, hanging out with
those friends, I remember a teacher encouraged my mom, “Get her involved in something.” And
I think I was on the tennis team for a year. (chuckles) Um, never play tennis. But the whole thing
was, you know, the staff at that time was to get kids involved in–in things. Um, Friday night
football was a big deal back then and um, um, just hanging out with whatever friends you had.
Brown: Mm-hmm. So, in the community, though, did your parents get involved in the
community? Were they involved in Kiwanis and Rotary and that kind of thing?
Jenkins: No.
Brown: Were those organizations available at that time, or—
Jenkins: I don’t know. I s–assume so.
Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: No. They were involved in playing golf. (laughs)
Brown: Okay. Okay. And that was a big thing in Lake San Marcos—
Jenkins: Yes!
Brown: —to play golf. They had, what, an executive course?
Jenkins: I don’t think they had the executive course then.
Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: But they did have the big course, and I’m sure that was one of the reasons why my dad
selected there, too, because they both played golf.
Brown: All right.
Jenkins: And I played golf too. My dad taught me–started to teach me, um, when I was about
nine. And, um–and so I would go out and play. There was a couple of people–a couple kids at
that time, and another gal and I would go out and play periodically.
Brown: Okay. So, today San Marcos is fairly well-known for its colleges. We have Palomar
Community College and Cal State San Marcos. After graduating from high school, did–did
you—you might not of even had those opportunities, although Palomar, I think, was here at that
point in time. Where–what did you do after high school, after graduating from high school?
Jenkins: So, I graduated from high school and went to Palomar College because it had such a
great reputation back then as it does now. I went to Palomar, and then, um, transferred to San
Diego State. But it was right around the time—actually, I think that I was going on campus to
�San Diego, and then as I got closer to finishing—it took me much longer than two years, because
I worked. But, as I got closer to finishing, they started to have some remote classes in North
County, and I think a couple of classes I went to—one was in the–a middle school in Vista, on a
Saturday, I think, and another one was in, um, a business class from an—off of Furniture Row.
So, San Diego—so, Cal State San Marcos wasn’t here, but they had started to expand some
opportunities for the No–North County kids. So, it wasn’t a lot of classes, but it was just enough
that you could take a couple and not have to commute to San Diego.
Brown: All right. Great. So, you finished up at–at San Diego State, and did you have a vocation
or an avocation in mind, um, while you were going to college?
Jenkins: Business.
Brown: Business.
Jenkins: Yes. I focused on business administration and accounting at the time.
Brown: Okay. And you said you were–you worked your way through college? You were
working while you were going to college.
Jenkins: I worked while I went to college. I ended up, um—after I left Palomar—I always
worked part-time. After I left Palomar, I think I might have started to work full-time and then I
took classes at night, and would commute down to San Diego State at night, a couple of nights a
week.
Brown: Oh. So, you had a busy life, even back then.
Jenkins: Yes.
Brown: (laughs) Wow, that’s great. So, commuting to school—what was driving to San Diego
State from San Marcos like? What–how–what was the timeframe?
Jenkins: So, I always thought it was a good, um, a good travel time if I could do it in about thirty
minutes. (both of them chuckle) Most of the time it was more than that. But it depended, you
know. If it was a class that ended at nine o’clock, then you could pretty much get home within
thirty minutes or so.
Brown: Mm-hmm.
Jenkins: But there definitely were times of the day when it was more difficult to get there, even
back then! That would have been in the, um, let’s see, probably the late seventies.
Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: So. And the freeways weren’t as big as they are today.
Brown: Right.
Jenkins: But we didn’t have as many cars back then.
Brown: Okay. So, then after graduation did you look for employment in, locally, or interested in
going someplace else?
�Jenkins: So, while I was in high school, my first job during high school after my sophomore year
was working at Taco Bell in Escondido. And then–um, and then I started my junior year and then
I was an aide for one of the high school counselors and he had a neighbor who had a business in
Escondido. And he said, “Sharon, you–this–my neighbor is looking for some work. Why don’t
you go see if they could–if, you know–apply for a job there.” And that was the summer after my
junior year. So, I worked the summer after my junior year at the company, and then when my
senior year started, I was only going half-day. And so, I would go to high school in the morning,
and then I would go work in the afternoon. And then I graduated mid-year my senior year. So, I
was able to start Palomar and I still worked part-time for the company. And then, while I was
going to Palomar, I just continued to work part-time and plan my classes accordingly. So, when I
finished college, I conti–started full-time with the company. In fact, I probably started full-time
before a graduated from college and finished college at night. I think that’s how it went.
Brown: Wow. So, you were a working woman early on.
Jenkins: Very early.
Brown: Yeah. And did you stay in the accounting field for a long time?
Jenkins: Yes. Most of my work there was office type work, accounting related work. And then I
worked there for about ten years, and then I applied for, while I was in college, I applied for a
internship, I guess you will, at IBM in San Diego. And so, I was hired to work part-time. I don’t
know what it was called exactly, but similar to a internship. And then I worked a year doing that.
And then–and then after that year, I started full-time there and I stayed there, um, for probably
early 90s. And then–and then I quit so I could stay home with my kids.
Brown: All right. Wow. Okay. So, when I first met you, you were involved in real estate. How
did that transition happen?
Jenkins: So, I think we actually met earlier than that, when Allan and I were on the school board
together.
Brown: Oh, okay.
Jenkins: Okay? Um, and, um, so I–I stayed home with my kids. Did different part-time things.
Volunteered a lot in the schools. That’s how I met Allan and eventually you. And then as my la–
my second daughter was about to graduate from high school, I thought well what am I going to
do now? And so then a friend said, “Why don’t you think about becoming a realtor?” And I
never gave it a thought. But, I said, “Okay, well, I’ll check into that.” And so, I did that and it–
it’s a way to help people which is what I like to do. And so, it has worked out well. So, I’ve been
doing that for, mm, probably close to seventeen years.
Brown: All right. That’s great. Well, you segued right into the kind of second theme of my
interview questions and that is your very long career in local government, starting with the
school district. And so, my question to you about that is, um, you know, what–what–what
inspired you to get involved beyond the local parent organization in the school district here in
San Marcos?
�Jenkins: So, I think being involved in–in the local parent groups actually was my segue into the
next part. Because I was involved in different parent organizations. I was involved in the 1996
School Board Bond effort. I co-chaired that with two other people. And then after that, once you
volunteer for something, as Dennis well knows, (they both chuckle) you are encouraged to
volunteer for more. And one day somebody caught me in one of the school parking lots and said,
“Have you ever running for the school board?” which I said, “I’ve—No.” And then, so then
finally in 1998, Lucy Gross who was a school board member for a long time which even Allan
knew well, was leaving the board and she–and she also approached me and said, “You know,
you should think about this because of the involvement with the schools.” And so–so I was on
the school board from 1998 until 2012.
Brown: Wow. So, during that time, how much did the school district change in those years?
Jenkins: I would say dramatically, more so towards the last half than the beginning. But San
Marcos was growing considerably then. I want to say, when I first started, there might have
been—I don’t know—maybe eight, maybe ten thousand students. I’d have to go back and look at
that. And now there are cl–close to, you know, approximately twenty [thousand]. So, it was a
very growth intensified time, a lot of schools being built, always financial troubles from–due to
state funding. But somehow, we got it all done.
Brown: Mm-hmm.
Jenkins: And I think during the last, um–you know, during the last five years or so, my term
there is just, I think, when dramatic things change. It was always interesting. I was told, and I–I
didn’t realize this until–until later, but I was told that, um, at different times of an organization,
there’s different priorities. And sometimes it’s a–it’s a school building cycle. Sometimes it’s a
curriculum cycle that you’re working to overcome. Sometimes it’s a financial cycle that you’re
working to overcome. And, um, and so as I look back, I realize when I first got on, it was a
growth cycle. So, it was building. And then later it became more curriculum focused cycle. All–
always–always focused on curriculum, but you–you pick and choose things to make things
happen sooner than later. And so, looking back, I–I–I now see what that very intelligent person
meant.
Brown: So, what was your favorite thing about—or a couple of your favorite things—about
being in a leadership position for a school district?
Jenkins: I would say my colleagues on the school board and staff. I think—you know, we’re
supposed to have the vision at a–at a high level, figure out what those goals are. And then it’s the
staff that makes it happen. And I think San Marcos—both on a school district and city-wide
too—has always had great staff. I think we were lucky. And we had school board members that
kept their focus on the kids and what was best for the kids. We couldn’t always get there as
quickly as we wanted, but eventually we would get there.
Brown: Yeah.
Jenkins: I think also the staff and the–the other electeds, but also, um, some of the things that I–I
find the most memorable to me are buildings, seeing the new schools open. High school
graduations are always great because, you know, it’s a huge success for the kids and the–and the
�staff, to get them to where they were that day. And also, I think the–the two school bonds that we
worked on over the years. Those were—that brought such change to the community, both of
those. And–and as an elected official, sometimes it’s difficult when you have to make really
difficult decisions. But it’s also gratifying when you–when you realize, okay, I made the right
decision. It's difficult, but I made the right decision.
Brown: And you come out on the–on the other end of it feeling really positive.
Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Brown: Yeah. That’s good. So, from the school board, then you put your name in to be a city
council representative and that comes with a whole ‘nother group of–of learning curves and–and,
uh, opportunities and challenges. So, any differences between the s–what you were dealing with
on the school board versus the city council?
Jenkins: I would say, um, a couple differences. The–the school district had, probably when I
started, maybe, I don’t know, maybe not even a thousand employees and less than ten schools.
Whereas I think the school district is more complex with a lot of the issues they have to deal
with. I think the city is–just has a smaller scale to it. And the needs are—you’re looking at
different needs than what the school district is looking at. You know, we have, say, two hundred
and some employees and many facilities. But those facilities are, in my mind, are less
complicated than a school facility.
Brown: Oh. Interesting. Wow. So, what was the first year you were elected to the city council?
Jenkins: 2012.
Brown: So, 2012. So, there was no break between the school district and moving right into city
council.
Jenkins: No. I was mid-term—
Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: —in 2012. So, I had two years into my four-year term. And there was a sitting
councilmember who wasn’t running. And so, again, I had a–a couple people approach me and
say, “You know, you should think about this.” And I said, “I know nothing about any of that.” I
said, “I haven’t been on the planning commission. How do I learn all that.” (both of them
chuckle) And so about maybe–maybe about a year, maybe s–not quite six months before the
election, I started to talk to as many people as I could to see, you know, what their thoughts
were. We, at that point, had lost redevelopment money to the state. The state clawed back, I think
it was twenty-some million dollars of redevelopment money, and I had a couple people say,
“Why would you even want to go into that because, you know, there’s a huge situation going on
here.” But I just decided that, after talking to a number of people, that I felt I had good support,
and I thought, you know, I can–I can learn this. I can do this. I had a lot of people that said, you
know, “Come back and talk to me whenever you need to.” And so, I did it.
Brown: Yeah. Were the–was the campaigning different between the school board and the city
council?
�Jenkins: Um, not–not drastically back then. To me it was citywide and to me the school board at
that point in time was also citywide. So, I had–I think I had some name recognition with the
parents and then because of being involved in different things in the district, then that–I think
that gave me a leg up.
Brown: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Jenkins: So, it’s about—yeah, I would say, at that point in time, it was about the same.
Brown: Okay. So, another continuing growth effort in our city over the time that you have been
serving on the city council. So, I’d like to ask you—in that time that you’ve been on which is
like ten years going on a few more years—so, um, looking back on that last ten years, what are
you—I mean—wha–what do you see as the most value that–that the city council and you,
yourself, have been involved in for the–for the community?
Jenkins: Um, I would say doing our best to listen to all residents. We can’t always do what
residents want us to do. That can be a little frustrating because they don’t realize–al–some of
what we do is out of our control. We really push for local control here in San Marcos so that we
make our own decisions. But more and more state, mainly, and federal is–is telling us we have to
do things differently. Or we have to adhere to certain things. And, you know, sometimes we may
feel like that’s not the best thing for our community, but we don’t have a choice.
Brown: Yeah.
Jenkins: Or we’d be sued.
Brown: So, if you had a magic wand today, is there anything in San Marcos that you would
change or–or improve that would make a huge difference or, uh, for our future?
Jenkins: I can’t think of anything right now off the top of my head. Um, I would like to see us,
um—traffic is always a big concern in San Marcos. So, I would say we have continuing efforts
to work on that. It’s not necessarily all about expanding roads. Some of it’s infrastructure and–
and–and other things. So, I would say, um, just trying to keep working through what we can in
that area and we’re working on it. We’re spending lots of money on it. I can’t think of anything
particular. We’re–I’m excited to have the bridges done in a few months. That has been
something that was talked about long before I got on the council. So, I think that would be a–a
big plus to the community to get that traffic flow.
Brown: That’s great. So, Sharon, I would like to kind of conclude this interview with giving you
an opportunity to just—if there’s anything we haven’t covered. I–I do have one more question
that I kind of have been thinking about in terms of my— Knowing you for so many years, one of
the things that I appreciate so much about you is your continually willingness and outreach to all
the people that you’ve known for so long, which is, I’m sure, a growing number every year. How
do you–how do you continue to keep in contact with this growing number of friends and
colleagues that you have grown over the course of your time here in San Marcos?
Jenkins: Um, let’s see. I don’t know. How do any of us do that? I think you just make an effort
to–to get together with people and have meet-ups and, um, see them at different events. I try to,
when things are going on within the city, I try to email people that I know would have an interest
�in that. And almost always I get emails back saying, “Wow. You know, we really appreciate that,
because we don’t–we don’t have access to that. And so, we’re glad to hear about something.”
Just, you know, again just doing your best to try to reach out to people.
Brown: Mm-hmm.
Jenkins: And–and see them when you can.
Brown: Uh-huh. Well, I certainly think that makes you a very effective leader in our community
in terms of keeping in t–touch with the way people feel. And I appreciate it.
Jenkins: Thank you. I think another thing that’s important too is, um, as things have changed in
the recent years, I think it is important for–for future councils and–and to understand that even
though we’re in voting districts, I think it’s important that we represent all of San Marcos.
Brown: Yeah.
Jenkins: Um, I’m in a particular district but I reach out to people in other districts all the time.
Listening is the best thing we can do.
Brown: Mm-hmm.
Jenkins: And responding to questions.
Brown: Yeah. So, in closing, is there anything else you’d like to share with us that we haven’t
covered today, but you’d like our audience to hear.
Jenkins: Let’s see. I would say that I’m just very pleased that I’ve been able to live in one town
for so long. Growing up I, you know, you always think, “Oh, I just want to get out of here.” But
I’m glad that I’ve–I’ve been here as long as I have. I’m glad my daughters—one lives here. Her–
her two children are going to San Marcos schools. In fact, one of them is going to Discovery
Elementary and I was one of the founding PTO board members of that. So, that’s kind of fun to
go back and see that school. And then my other daughter’s nearby in San Diego. So, I think
being able to see them enjoy what’s going on here in North County—that, things that, you know,
I enjoyed growing up. And they’re now realizing that–that it’s a good place.
Brown: Absolutely.
Jenkins: Yeah.
Brown: All right.
Jenkins: Thank you for having me.
Brown: Well, thank you very much for your time today and this concludes our interview for the
North County Oral History Initiative.
�
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Jenkins, Sharon. Interview transcript. February 2, 2023
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Sharon Jenkins was born in Quincy, Massachusetts, grew up in Scituate, Mass., and moved to Lake San Marcos, California in 1971 where she attended San Marcos High School. She was a business major in college; after college she worked in the accounting profession for 15 years. Her involvement as a parent volunteer led her to run for San Marcos City School Board where Jenkins served for 14 years. Jenkins was elected to San Marcos City Council in 2012 and will complete her final term in 2024. She is also a Realtor. The interview focuses primarily on her high school years and her experiences serving on San Marcos' School Board and City Council.
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Sharon Jenkins
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Tanis Brown
Melissa Martin
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2023-02-02
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Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos
Local government -- California -- San Marcos
Public administration -- California -- San Marcos
School boards -- California -- San Marcos
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San Marcos (Calif.)
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Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Politics and governance
Women's experience
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Sharon Jenkins
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5.4 Jenkins, Sharon. Interview, February 2, 2023 SC027-32 0:34:26 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos Local government -- California -- San Marcos Public administration -- California -- San Marcos School boards -- California -- San Marcos Sharon Jenkins Tanis Brown mp4 JenkinsSharon_BrownTanis_2023-02-02_access.mp4 1:|18(10)|47(8)|69(7)|85(1)|96(5)|114(2)|124(6)|156(2)|167(1)|176(13)|199(9)|222(2)|231(9)|245(8)|253(6)|267(7)|276(7)|285(6)|296(3)|306(11)|318(1)|329(6)|342(11)|351(16)|370(4)|379(10)|391(11)|405(8)|418(11)|428(1)|438(5)|448(14)|473(5)|483(2) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2fbd5c479eb53fc879b7df28dcab0e80.mp4 Other video English 0 Childhood/ Moving to San Marcos, CA Sharon Jenkins briefly discusses her early childhood in Massachusetts before moving to San Marcos, CA. She grew up in Quincy, MA as a young child before her family moved to Scituate, MA. Her family lived in Scituate until 1971, when they purchased a home in Lake San Marcos. Jenkins explains that her father was a pilot and commuted to Los Angeles, CA for work. Jenkins was a high school freshman when they first arrived to San Marcos and she attended San Marcos High School. She explains that San Marcos High School was only ten years old at the time, and was a small school in the 1970s. She estimates that only two hundred students were in her graduating class. Jenkins also recalls making life-long friends in high school. High school ; Lake San Marcos (Calif.) ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Quincy (Mass.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos High School ; School ; Scituate (Mass.) ; Small community ; Small town ; Students 256 The community of San Marcos, CA Sharon Jenkins describes the new community of San Marcos during the 1970s. As a new student, her teachers encouraged her parents to sign her up for sports teams and other activities, which is how Jenkins became more active in the San Marcos community. She describes feeling connected to the community by socializing with friends at Friday night football games. Jenkins also explains that playing golf was a popular activity in Lake San Marcos. Football games ; Golfl ; High school ; Lake San Marcos (Calif.) ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos High School ; School ; Small community ; Small town ; Students ; Tennis 480 College education Sharon Jenkins recounts her busy life as a college student. After graduating from San Marcos High School, she enrolled in Palomar College and then transferred to San Diego State University (SDSU). Jenkins majored in business and administration in college. Jenkins also worked throughout her college career, working part-time while attending Palomar College, and then working full-time after transferring to SDSU. She explains that she took night classes when attending SDSU, and she would be fortunate if she made it from San Marcos to SDSU within a thirty-minute commute. She explains that her commutes were usually a much more difficult drive due to the San Diego traffic—even during the 1970s. Business and administration ; Commute ; Commuting ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Palomar College ; San Diego freeways ; San Diego State Univeristy ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Students ; Traffic 700 Career in accounting and real estate Sharon Jenkins describes her career in accounting and real estate. She explains that she began working at an accounting firm part-time the summer after her junior year in high school, and continued working at the firm throughout her education at Palomar College. Jenkins then accepted an internship at IBM in San Diego and worked there for a year while in college, before accepting a full-time position at the company. She stayed at IBM until the early 1990s before leaving the position and becoming a homemaker. Jenkins explains that she later transitioned to the field of real estate after her second daughter graduated from high school. At the time of the interview’s recording, Jenkins has worked in real estate for seventeen years. Accounting ; Accounting firms ; Homemaker ; IBM ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Parenthood ; Real estate ; Realtor ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) 966 Involvement in the San Marcos school board Sharon Jenkins recounts her involvement in the local school district of San Marcos. She first became involved in the local parent groups, parent organizations, and the 1996 School Board Bond effort, which she co-chaired with two other individuals. She then joined the school board, and was an active member from 1998 to 2012. Jenkins also reflects on how she has seen the San Marcos school district change over the years. When she first joined the school board, eight to ten thousand students were enrolled in the district, and at the time of the interview’s recording, she explains that approximately twenty thousand are now enrolled. She also explains that the school board also has to tackle many issues, such as financial issues due to the lack of state funding. Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; School ; School board ; School bonds ; School district ; Small community ; Small town ; State funding ; Students 1239 Reflections on being in leadership Sharon Jenkins reflects on being in a leadership position. She explains that she enjoys working with her colleagues on the school board and its staff. She continues that San Marcos is has a great staff and the school board has its best intentions in mind for its students. She also found the opening of new schools and high school graduations to be a very memorable experiences while in the position. Decision making in leadership ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; School ; School board ; Small community ; Small town ; Staff ; Students 1374 Joining the city council Sharon Jenkins discusses her campaign to join the city council in 2012 and the lessons she learned on the campaign trail. She also discusses the differences between working on the city council and in the school district. She notes that the school district was more complex and dealt with a plethora of issues when compared with the city council. She also explains that the school district and city council both had different needs to which needed attending. City council ; City council campaign ; City council election ; City council representative ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos city council ; School board ; School district ; Small community ; Small town ; Students 1628 The value of the city council for the community Sharon Jenkins reflects on the city council’s value to the community of San Marcos. She explains that the city council does its best to listen to its residents and push for local control. She expresses frustration over state and federal government asserting themselves into local governmental matters. Jenkins is also passionate about continuing efforts to fix and expand infrastructure in the city. Bridges ; City council ; City council representative ; Federal government ; Funding ; Infrastructure ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Roads ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos city council ; Small community ; Small town ; State government ; Traffic 1813 Final thoughts/Closing of interview Sharon Jenkins concludes the interview by discussing the importance of reaching out to others, whether that being staying in contact with friends in the community or reaching out to individuals in other districts and listening to them and responding to their questions. City council ; City council representative ; Colleagues ; Family ; Friends ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Representation in small districts ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Small community ; Small town ; Staying connected Oral history Sharon Jenkins was born in Quincy, Massachusetts, grew up in Scituate, Mass., and moved to Lake San Marcos, California in 1971 where she attended San Marcos High School. She was a business major in college ; after college she worked in the accounting profession for 15 years. Her involvement as a parent volunteer led her to run for San Marcos City School Board where Jenkins served for 14 years. Jenkins was elected to San Marcos City Council in 2012 and will complete her final term in 2024. She is also a Realtor. The interview focuses primarily on her high school years and her experiences serving on San Marcos' School Board and City Council. Tanis Brown: Okay. So, today is February 2nd, 2023, and this is a part of the North County Oral History Initiative. My name is Tanis Brown, and today I will be interviewing Sharon Jenkins. So, hi Sharon. Thanks very much for coming in today. You and I have been friends for a long time, but there are some things about you that I don' ; t really know. So, I' ; d like to find out a little bit more about your San Marcos story. Sharon Jenkins: Right. Thanks for having me, Tanis. This--I' ; m excited you' ; re doing this. Brown: Good. Well, I' ; d like to start from the beginning. Where were you born, Sharon? Jenkins: I was born in Quincy, Massachusetts-- Brown: Oh my gosh. Jenkins: --and I moved from Quincy when I was very young. I don' ; t even know how young, less than five. And I moved to Scituate, Massachusetts. And I lived there until 1971, when we moved to San Marcos. Brown: Okay. So, you came to San Marcos in 1971, and would you still have been going to school at that time? Jenkins: So, yes. I started San Marcos High School in 1971 as a freshman. Brown: Okay. And the school was just ten years old at that time, so-- Jenkins: Yes. Brown: --it was a new school. Jenkins: Yes, very small. Brown: How many students in the--in the graduating class, Sharon? Jenkins: So, I don' ; t remember the number. I would guess maybe less than two hundred. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: I know when we graduated, we could sit on the visitor' ; s side of the bleachers in the old gym. Brown: (chuckles) Jenkins: So, that' ; s how small we were. Brown: Okay. Did you have a football team and everything, and-- Jenkins: We had a football team, yes, yes. Brown: All right. So, any changes between the east coast and coming to the west coast? Jenkins: I think I was so young that I probably didn' ; t understand what those changes were. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: Um, I remembered it--I remembered feeling like it was very, um, --things were very scattered here, and--and not very busy. Brown: Oh, compared to the east coast. Jenkins: Right, right. Brown: Interesting. Um, so other than changing coasts, do you have any other childhood memories that stick out in your mind that maybe you carry forward today, or any traits about yourself? Jenkins: I would say, as far as high school and that era, um, making--making friends that some of them I still have as friends today. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: San Marcos was very small back then. So, um, there was a lot of people connected and, even though we' ; re much larger today, a lot of those connections are still in place. When I moved here there were, I believe, less than 10,000 people in San Marcos. Brown: Wow. That' ; s so cool. And you actually moved to Lake San Marcos when you first came here? Jenkins: Yes, I did. I moved to Lake San Marcos. Um, that' ; s where my parents purchased a house. And my dad was a pilot and commuted to L.A. when he needed to fly. And, um, he decided on Lake San Marcos because he felt that it was such a great, safe community. And he had a friend in Escondido who told him that San Marcos had a new high school and had a very good reputation. So, that' ; s another reason why he--he picked San Marcos. Brown: Okay. Oh, that' ; s interesting. So, Lake San Marcos was kind of an entity unto itself when it was first constructed and was highly touted as a--a kind of upscale community. Did you--did you notice any of that growing up in terms of--of students or residents of San Marcos? Did you always feel yourself a part of the community of San Marcos? Jenkins: Yes, always. So, when I moved there, as I look back, I think there were less than five children living in Lake San Marcos, because it was a retirement community back then. And most of the homes that are there today were not there. It was m--majority was empty lots that homes hadn' ; t been constructed yet-- Brown: Okay Jenkins: --um, along the streets. (nods her head) Brown: Okay. Jenkins: So, I think the big thing I noticed, um, was very few--in fact, I don' ; t eve--I think I only knew one or two--other kids that lived there, but always felt it was a part of San Marcos to me. (nods her head again) Brown: Okay. That' ; s great. Okay. So, just in terms of the overall community of San Marcos back in 1971 and during your high school years, wha--what were the big deals? What was--what was the city like at that time for you growing up? Jenkins: Um, I was--since I was new to the community--I didn' ; t have some of the connections that many of the other kids had that had been through school from however young. Um, so I think some of the connections were um, um, you know, as you made friends, hanging out with those friends, I remember a teacher encouraged my mom, " ; Get her involved in something." ; And I think I was on the tennis team for a year. (chuckles) Um, never play tennis. But the whole thing was, you know, the staff at that time was to get kids involved in--in things. Um, Friday night football was a big deal back then and um, um, just hanging out with whatever friends you had. Brown: Mm-hmm. So, in the community, though, did your parents get involved in the community? Were they involved in Kiwanis and Rotary and that kind of thing? Jenkins: No. Brown: Were those organizations available at that time, or-- Jenkins: I don' ; t know. I s--assume so. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: No. They were involved in playing golf. (laughs) Brown: Okay. Okay. And that was a big thing in Lake San Marcos-- Jenkins: Yes! Brown: --to play golf. They had, what, an executive course? Jenkins: I don' ; t think they had the executive course then. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: But they did have the big course, and I' ; m sure that was one of the reasons why my dad selected there, too, because they both played golf. Brown: All right. Jenkins: And I played golf too. My dad taught me--started to teach me, um, when I was about nine. And, um--and so I would go out and play. There was a couple of people--a couple kids at that time, and another gal and I would go out and play periodically. Brown: Okay. So, today San Marcos is fairly well-known for its colleges. We have Palomar Community College and Cal State San Marcos. After graduating from high school, did--did you--you might not of even had those opportunities, although Palomar, I think, was here at that point in time. Where--what did you do after high school, after graduating from high school? Jenkins: So, I graduated from high school and went to Palomar College because it had such a great reputation back then as it does now. I went to Palomar, and then, um, transferred to San Diego State. But it was right around the time--actually, I think that I was going on campus to San Diego, and then as I got closer to finishing--it took me much longer than two years, because I worked. But, as I got closer to finishing, they started to have some remote classes in North County, and I think a couple of classes I went to--one was in the--a middle school in Vista, on a Saturday, I think, and another one was in, um, a business class from an--off of Furniture Row. So, San Diego--so, Cal State San Marcos wasn' ; t here, but they had started to expand some opportunities for the No--North County kids. So, it wasn' ; t a lot of classes, but it was just enough that you could take a couple and not have to commute to San Diego. Brown: All right. Great. So, you finished up at--at San Diego State, and did you have a vocation or an avocation in mind, um, while you were going to college? Jenkins: Business. Brown: Business. Jenkins: Yes. I focused on business administration and accounting at the time. Brown: Okay. And you said you were--you worked your way through college? You were working while you were going to college. Jenkins: I worked while I went to college. I ended up, um--after I left Palomar--I always worked part-time. After I left Palomar, I think I might have started to work full-time and then I took classes at night, and would commute down to San Diego State at night, a couple of nights a week. Brown: Oh. So, you had a busy life, even back then. Jenkins: Yes. Brown: (laughs) Wow, that' ; s great. So, commuting to school--what was driving to San Diego State from San Marcos like? What--how--what was the timeframe? Jenkins: So, I always thought it was a good, um, a good travel time if I could do it in about thirty minutes. (both of them chuckle) Most of the time it was more than that. But it depended, you know. If it was a class that ended at nine o' ; clock, then you could pretty much get home within thirty minutes or so. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: But there definitely were times of the day when it was more difficult to get there, even back then! That would have been in the, um, let' ; s see, probably the late seventies. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: So. And the freeways weren' ; t as big as they are today. Brown: Right. Jenkins: But we didn' ; t have as many cars back then. Brown: Okay. So, then after graduation did you look for employment in, locally, or interested in going someplace else? Jenkins: So, while I was in high school, my first job during high school after my sophomore year was working at Taco Bell in Escondido. And then--um, and then I started my junior year and then I was an aide for one of the high school counselors and he had a neighbor who had a business in Escondido. And he said, " ; Sharon, you--this--my neighbor is looking for some work. Why don' ; t you go see if they could--if, you know--apply for a job there." ; And that was the summer after my junior year. So, I worked the summer after my junior year at the company, and then when my senior year started, I was only going half-day. And so, I would go to high school in the morning, and then I would go work in the afternoon. And then I graduated mid-year my senior year. So, I was able to start Palomar and I still worked part-time for the company. And then, while I was going to Palomar, I just continued to work part-time and plan my classes accordingly. So, when I finished college, I conti--started full-time with the company. In fact, I probably started full-time before a graduated from college and finished college at night. I think that' ; s how it went. Brown: Wow. So, you were a working woman early on. Jenkins: Very early. Brown: Yeah. And did you stay in the accounting field for a long time? Jenkins: Yes. Most of my work there was office type work, accounting related work. And then I worked there for about ten years, and then I applied for, while I was in college, I applied for a internship, I guess you will, at IBM in San Diego. And so, I was hired to work part-time. I don' ; t know what it was called exactly, but similar to a internship. And then I worked a year doing that. And then--and then after that year, I started full-time there and I stayed there, um, for probably early 90s. And then--and then I quit so I could stay home with my kids. Brown: All right. Wow. Okay. So, when I first met you, you were involved in real estate. How did that transition happen? Jenkins: So, I think we actually met earlier than that, when Allan and I were on the school board together. Brown: Oh, okay. Jenkins: Okay? Um, and, um, so I--I stayed home with my kids. Did different part-time things. Volunteered a lot in the schools. That' ; s how I met Allan and eventually you. And then as my la--my second daughter was about to graduate from high school, I thought well what am I going to do now? And so then a friend said, " ; Why don' ; t you think about becoming a realtor?" ; And I never gave it a thought. But, I said, " ; Okay, well, I' ; ll check into that." ; And so, I did that and it--it' ; s a way to help people which is what I like to do. And so, it has worked out well. So, I' ; ve been doing that for, mm, probably close to seventeen years. Brown: All right. That' ; s great. Well, you segued right into the kind of second theme of my interview questions and that is your very long career in local government, starting with the school district. And so, my question to you about that is, um, you know, what--what--what inspired you to get involved beyond the local parent organization in the school district here in San Marcos? Jenkins: So, I think being involved in--in the local parent groups actually was my segue into the next part. Because I was involved in different parent organizations. I was involved in the 1996 School Board Bond effort. I co-chaired that with two other people. And then after that, once you volunteer for something, as Dennis well knows, (they both chuckle) you are encouraged to volunteer for more. And one day somebody caught me in one of the school parking lots and said, " ; Have you ever running for the school board?" ; which I said, " ; I' ; ve--No." ; And then, so then finally in 1998, Lucy Gross who was a school board member for a long time which even Allan knew well, was leaving the board and she--and she also approached me and said, " ; You know, you should think about this because of the involvement with the schools." ; And so--so I was on the school board from 1998 until 2012. Brown: Wow. So, during that time, how much did the school district change in those years? Jenkins: I would say dramatically, more so towards the last half than the beginning. But San Marcos was growing considerably then. I want to say, when I first started, there might have been--I don' ; t know--maybe eight, maybe ten thousand students. I' ; d have to go back and look at that. And now there are cl--close to, you know, approximately twenty [thousand]. So, it was a very growth intensified time, a lot of schools being built, always financial troubles from--due to state funding. But somehow, we got it all done. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And I think during the last, um--you know, during the last five years or so, my term there is just, I think, when dramatic things change. It was always interesting. I was told, and I--I didn' ; t realize this until--until later, but I was told that, um, at different times of an organization, there' ; s different priorities. And sometimes it' ; s a--it' ; s a school building cycle. Sometimes it' ; s a curriculum cycle that you' ; re working to overcome. Sometimes it' ; s a financial cycle that you' ; re working to overcome. And, um, and so as I look back, I realize when I first got on, it was a growth cycle. So, it was building. And then later it became more curriculum focused cycle. All--always--always focused on curriculum, but you--you pick and choose things to make things happen sooner than later. And so, looking back, I--I--I now see what that very intelligent person meant. Brown: So, what was your favorite thing about--or a couple of your favorite things--about being in a leadership position for a school district? Jenkins: I would say my colleagues on the school board and staff. I think--you know, we' ; re supposed to have the vision at a--at a high level, figure out what those goals are. And then it' ; s the staff that makes it happen. And I think San Marcos--both on a school district and city-wide too--has always had great staff. I think we were lucky. And we had school board members that kept their focus on the kids and what was best for the kids. We couldn' ; t always get there as quickly as we wanted, but eventually we would get there. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: I think also the staff and the--the other electeds, but also, um, some of the things that I--I find the most memorable to me are buildings, seeing the new schools open. High school graduations are always great because, you know, it' ; s a huge success for the kids and the--and the staff, to get them to where they were that day. And also, I think the--the two school bonds that we worked on over the years. Those were--that brought such change to the community, both of those. And--and as an elected official, sometimes it' ; s difficult when you have to make really difficult decisions. But it' ; s also gratifying when you--when you realize, okay, I made the right decision. It' ; s difficult, but I made the right decision. Brown: And you come out on the--on the other end of it feeling really positive. Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brown: Yeah. That' ; s good. So, from the school board, then you put your name in to be a city council representative and that comes with a whole ' ; nother group of--of learning curves and--and, uh, opportunities and challenges. So, any differences between the s--what you were dealing with on the school board versus the city council? Jenkins: I would say, um, a couple differences. The--the school district had, probably when I started, maybe, I don' ; t know, maybe not even a thousand employees and less than ten schools. Whereas I think the school district is more complex with a lot of the issues they have to deal with. I think the city is--just has a smaller scale to it. And the needs are--you' ; re looking at different needs than what the school district is looking at. You know, we have, say, two hundred and some employees and many facilities. But those facilities are, in my mind, are less complicated than a school facility. Brown: Oh. Interesting. Wow. So, what was the first year you were elected to the city council? Jenkins: 2012. Brown: So, 2012. So, there was no break between the school district and moving right into city council. Jenkins: No. I was mid-term-- Brown: Okay. Jenkins: --in 2012. So, I had two years into my four-year term. And there was a sitting councilmember who wasn' ; t running. And so, again, I had a--a couple people approach me and say, " ; You know, you should think about this." ; And I said, " ; I know nothing about any of that." ; I said, " ; I haven' ; t been on the planning commission. How do I learn all that." ; (both of them chuckle) And so about maybe--maybe about a year, maybe s--not quite six months before the election, I started to talk to as many people as I could to see, you know, what their thoughts were. We, at that point, had lost redevelopment money to the state. The state clawed back, I think it was twenty-some million dollars of redevelopment money, and I had a couple people say, " ; Why would you even want to go into that because, you know, there' ; s a huge situation going on here." ; But I just decided that, after talking to a number of people, that I felt I had good support, and I thought, you know, I can--I can learn this. I can do this. I had a lot of people that said, you know, " ; Come back and talk to me whenever you need to." ; And so, I did it. Brown: Yeah. Were the--was the campaigning different between the school board and the city council? Jenkins: Um, not--not drastically back then. To me it was citywide and to me the school board at that point in time was also citywide. So, I had--I think I had some name recognition with the parents and then because of being involved in different things in the district, then that--I think that gave me a leg up. Brown: Mm-hmm. Okay. Jenkins: So, it' ; s about--yeah, I would say, at that point in time, it was about the same. Brown: Okay. So, another continuing growth effort in our city over the time that you have been serving on the city council. So, I' ; d like to ask you--in that time that you' ; ve been on which is like ten years going on a few more years--so, um, looking back on that last ten years, what are you--I mean--wha--what do you see as the most value that--that the city council and you, yourself, have been involved in for the--for the community? Jenkins: Um, I would say doing our best to listen to all residents. We can' ; t always do what residents want us to do. That can be a little frustrating because they don' ; t realize--al--some of what we do is out of our control. We really push for local control here in San Marcos so that we make our own decisions. But more and more state, mainly, and federal is--is telling us we have to do things differently. Or we have to adhere to certain things. And, you know, sometimes we may feel like that' ; s not the best thing for our community, but we don' ; t have a choice. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: Or we' ; d be sued. Brown: So, if you had a magic wand today, is there anything in San Marcos that you would change or--or improve that would make a huge difference or, uh, for our future? Jenkins: I can' ; t think of anything right now off the top of my head. Um, I would like to see us, um--traffic is always a big concern in San Marcos. So, I would say we have continuing efforts to work on that. It' ; s not necessarily all about expanding roads. Some of it' ; s infrastructure and--and--and other things. So, I would say, um, just trying to keep working through what we can in that area and we' ; re working on it. We' ; re spending lots of money on it. I can' ; t think of anything particular. We' ; re--I' ; m excited to have the bridges done in a few months. That has been something that was talked about long before I got on the council. So, I think that would be a--a big plus to the community to get that traffic flow. Brown: That' ; s great. So, Sharon, I would like to kind of conclude this interview with giving you an opportunity to just--if there' ; s anything we haven' ; t covered. I--I do have one more question that I kind of have been thinking about in terms of my-- Knowing you for so many years, one of the things that I appreciate so much about you is your continually willingness and outreach to all the people that you' ; ve known for so long, which is, I' ; m sure, a growing number every year. How do you--how do you continue to keep in contact with this growing number of friends and colleagues that you have grown over the course of your time here in San Marcos? Jenkins: Um, let' ; s see. I don' ; t know. How do any of us do that? I think you just make an effort to--to get together with people and have meet-ups and, um, see them at different events. I try to, when things are going on within the city, I try to email people that I know would have an interest in that. And almost always I get emails back saying, " ; Wow. You know, we really appreciate that, because we don' ; t--we don' ; t have access to that. And so, we' ; re glad to hear about something." ; Just, you know, again just doing your best to try to reach out to people. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And--and see them when you can. Brown: Uh-huh. Well, I certainly think that makes you a very effective leader in our community in terms of keeping in t--touch with the way people feel. And I appreciate it. Jenkins: Thank you. I think another thing that' ; s important too is, um, as things have changed in the recent years, I think it is important for--for future councils and--and to understand that even though we' ; re in voting districts, I think it' ; s important that we represent all of San Marcos. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: Um, I' ; m in a particular district but I reach out to people in other districts all the time. Listening is the best thing we can do. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And responding to questions. Brown: Yeah. So, in closing, is there anything else you' ; d like to share with us that we haven' ; t covered today, but you' ; d like our audience to hear. Jenkins: Let' ; s see. I would say that I' ; m just very pleased that I' ; ve been able to live in one town for so long. Growing up I, you know, you always think, " ; Oh, I just want to get out of here." ; But I' ; m glad that I' ; ve--I' ; ve been here as long as I have. I' ; m glad my daughters--one lives here. Her--her two children are going to San Marcos schools. In fact, one of them is going to Discovery Elementary and I was one of the founding PTO board members of that. So, that' ; s kind of fun to go back and see that school. And then my other daughter' ; s nearby in San Diego. So, I think being able to see them enjoy what' ; s going on here in North County--that, things that, you know, I enjoyed growing up. And they' ; re now realizing that--that it' ; s a good place. Brown: Absolutely. Jenkins: Yeah. Brown: All right. Jenkins: Thank you for having me. Brown: Well, thank you very much for your time today and this concludes our interview for the North County Oral History Initiative. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Title
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Jenkins, Sharon. Interview, February 2, 2023
Description
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Sharon Jenkins was born in Quincy, Massachusetts, grew up in Scituate, Mass., and moved to Lake San Marcos, California in 1971 where she attended San Marcos High School. She was a business major in college; after college she worked in the accounting profession for 15 years. Her involvement as a parent volunteer led her to run for San Marcos City School Board where Jenkins served for 14 years. Jenkins was elected to San Marcos City Council in 2012 and will complete her final term in 2024. She is also a Realtor. The interview focuses primarily on her high school years and her experiences serving on San Marcos' School Board and City Council.
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SC027-33
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Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos
Local government -- California -- San Marcos
Public administration -- California -- San Marcos
School boards -- California -- San Marcos
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2023-02-02
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video
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Sharon Jenkins
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Tanis Brown
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San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Sharon Jenkins
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Moving image
Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Politics and governance
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/9173acfb4043d98a992ece390b686936.pdf
745685fd9a5c04a10e7e266af852c2c4
PDF Text
Text
ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Sean Visintainer:
Hello, this is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Major General Anthony Jackson for the California
State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History initiative. Today is March
7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Major General Jackson, thank you
for interviewing with us today.
Anthony Jackson:
Yeah, you're welcome. It's a, it's a privilege, kind of a, an honor, I guess I should say.
Visintainer:
These are, uh, the favorite part of my job that I get to do. So it's a real pleasure to have you. I forgot to
mention that I will take some notes as we're interviewing, just so you know.
Jackson:
Sure.
Visintainer:
So I can circle back to questions if I have them.
Jackson:
All right.
Visintainer:
Uh, things like that. And I wanted to just start off by asking you about your childhood and your formative
years.
Jackson:
Yeah.
Visintainer:
Um, where were you born?
Jackson:
I was born at Madigan General Hospital in Fort Lewis, Washington. My father was a career soldier. So I
was the fourth of his children. Uh, let's see. And being a military brat, you grow up in a lot of different
places. But, uh, yeah, my dad, uh, he lied about his age and lied about his parentage to join the army
shortly after Pearl Harbor. He met his, my mother in, May of [19]42, and married her in June of the same
year. And then he went overseas to Europe for, for three years. In those days they went for the duration
and came home to see my, uh, oldest sister was three years old when he got home.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
And then, my older brother was born in [19]46, and then Matt, and then Don was born in [19]48, and
then I was born in [19]49, and the Korean War broke out so my mother got a break.
Visintainer:
Yeah. <laughs>.
Jackson:
And dad came home in [19]52, and <laughs> Clay was born in [19]53. And then Dana was born in, uh,
[19]56, and Tawnya was born in [19]57. I guess they're Irish twins. And that was the last of the kids. But
if you notice, I was seven. The girls, Betty is the oldest, and Tanya the youngest. And then there's five
boys, and I'm the top dead-center.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
Uh, and, uh, highly competitive sports-oriented family with the boys. And, uh, I guess I should say that
the main thing in that growing up was, I was kind of taking notes and reviewing my own life a couple
weeks ago; that I started school in Germany, did kindergarten and first grade in Germany, and then my
dad got stationed in Los Angeles. So I, uh, <Visintainer coughs> spent the second grade in Los Angeles.
Then I spent the third grade-- He got sent someplace else, spent the third grade in Houston, Texas, his
hometown. And then I spent four through the seventh grade in Colorado at two different schools. And
then back to Texas for the eighth <laughs>. And then in the middle of the ninth grade, a couple months
into the ninth grade, we moved to California in 1963 as uh, and all my teachers in Texas were excited. I
was going to such a great state for academics. And so I got here in October [19]63 as a ninth grader, as
the brand new kid talking funny, dressing, funny and-Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Fighting my way through the ninth grade. But, so I was fortunate to go to high school in Oakland. You
know that they have three-year high school. So all my high school years, I was the first of my brothers
and sisters. If you'll see those days, you'll see that they got ripped off <laughs> and didn't go to one
single high school, my older one. So I was the first one that kind of got planted at one place.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And then, um, and that was really good because counselors and everybody started prepping me for
college. Uh, Mrs. [Phyllis] Collier wouldn't let me go. She constantly -- she was my counselor -constantly tried to get me into college prep classes, which she did, and make me take the SATs. You're
not going to the state wrestling finals unless you take the SATs. And, uh, and that was a good
experience. Yeah. Football became my, uh, my great love of sports, although played a lot of baseball,
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
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basketball, and all those kinds of things, wrestled in high school. But I got a football scholarship, offered
several scholarships. I was lucky to be... I was born at exactly the right time. You know, the high, the civil
rights movement, the, all the sacrifices of so many people during the Civil Rights Movement. When I
graduated from high school in 1967, universities were looking for me in terms of race, in terms of
athleticism, in terms of grades and SATs.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And I just happened to be born at that exact right juncture of the civil rights movement and who could
get that young African American into the university. But I took a football scholarship <laughs>, because I
knew that was just based on pure athleticism or whatever.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
But it was still important. That was, the doors were opening wide, and I just happened to be the right
age, born at right time as well. So that was my kind of through high school, uh, living in a lot of different
places. Three years in Germany, four years in Colorado, off and on in Texas. And so, um, with mom and
dad always providing a good solid family basis, and my mother was incredibly, like, I still look back and,
you know here I was a high-ranking officer, [inaudible] and having two kids was expensive. <laughs>
Here my dad was a sergeant in the army, not an officer.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And he, and somehow she managed to put together great meals that we were all healthy and athletic
and all that. And I still wonder how she did it. It was pretty-- she was pretty fantastic. She sewed our
clothes and did all kinds of things that, you know sometimes I see the kids walking around here with
patches and torn jeans and all that.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
That would've been so embarrassing for my family. <laughter> We were, we were poor, you know,
<laughs> and here these kids, I guess middle class kids that, that wanted to look like that <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
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TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Jackson:
We would've been totally embarrassed. And mom would sew up those torn spots.
Visintainer:
You said she was, uh, she managed to make great meals for everybody in your family.
Jackson:
Yeah.
Visintainer:
I was curious, is there a, is there a, a particular meal or food that really evokes memories of your
childhood?
Jackson:
I would say that we ate a lot of cooked cereal.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
You know, things like cornmeal and oatmeal and grits and yeah. And, um, it was because it was
inexpensive and filled with nutrition.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
I presume and it filled you up, you know? And so, uh, yeah. And you never turned your back on your
plate.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Spaghetti and meatballs, you turn your back <laughs>. One of those meatballs was gonna be missing you
know, <laughs>. I mean, you never missed dinner. You never missed a meal. You were always home. You
didn't wear a watch. You didn't have a watch, but you knew what dinnertime was.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
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And you knew, you knew that, uh, you know, to be home for dinner. Um, so my mother was a, just a
great cook. And, uh, and I just remember that there was always a meal, uh, sometimes they were pretty
creative.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Like, she would make syrup out of, uh, out of sugar and water, and she'd just melt it down. And that
would be the syrup for your pancakes.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
You know, she didn't, orange juice, you know, if the can said "mix three cans of water with this," she'd
probably mix four, four or five you know, stretching things out. She could do that. But, uh... Man, she-Yeah, you would never turn down one of her meals. I would just say that, uh, everything she cooked was
worthy of eating.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Except turnips. <laughter>
Visintainer:
So that was the, that was the vegetable. That was-Jackson:
Yeah, that was the one. I mean I liked all the other green vegetables and stuff like that. But I never
really, I was kind of amazed when I was being recruited. I was being recruited to play football at UC
[University of California] Berkeley. And, um, they brought me into the Bear's Lair, Bear's Lair, their kind
of campus restaurant. And they put a salad in front of me, a green salad with just lettuce-Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And I said, what <laughs>, what am I supposed to do with this?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
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Jackson:
Because I'd never had a lettuce salad that I could ever have recalled. So I had to watch, uh what the
coaches who were recruiting me were doing with that <laughs>, 'cause our meals were substantial. And
[inaudible] they were designed to fill you up, you know?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
As a kid more than anything. Yeah.
Visintainer:
Did, uh, did you live on bases?
Jackson:
Yeah. We s-- you know, um... We, we, we lived on and off base. The military, it wasn't until my time in
the military, the military used to be when you got stationed overseas, families had to move off the base
housing.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And it was in my times in, I think in the, uh, I want to say in the 1980s, that even though your, uh, spouse
was overseas, you could stay on base, uh, at least in the Marine Corps. But we lived, um, sometimes
we'd stay a while with relatives. But my mother was from Salt Lake City, Utah. And so we would
sometimes stage there for a couple months before we went overseas or before we went to California or
something like that. And, but, let's see, on-- in Germany, yeah, all that time was on military base.
Colorado was four years on military base. Oakland, the first couple of years we lived on a military base,
but my dad also kept a little home in Houston, Texas. And a couple of times we would move into that
house. And uh, but when he retired from the Army when I was a senior in high school, he bought a
home in Oakland.
Visintainer:
Okay.
Jackson:
And that was my senior year so that was the first year I had moved up in the pecking order to get a
bedroom by myself. 'Cause we usually lived in a three-bedroom house, one [bedroom] for mom and
dad, one for the two girls and then the last one, <laughs> was either for my older brother, if it was small.
And we, like in Colorado the older brother had a room, and then the four younger ones slept in the
basement.
Visintainer:
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Yeah.
Jackson:
In bunk beds, right?
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And then finally when I was a senior, I got a room to myself for a few months when <laughs>, you know,
so, um--But we settled, the family settled in Oakland. And that's where my mother and father lived until
they passed away. And, uh, they-- so it was, uh, the military bases are sort of protected in some ways
from-Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
A little bit different than society, you know. And then even as I went through my career, we stayed on
bases sometimes. Not always.
Visintainer:
Uh, you said that the military bases are protected and different from society.
Jackson:
Yeah. Its-- They're, they're a little bit different-Visintainer:
Could you explain-Jackson:
Because first of all, I'll never forget, like when we were stationed in Hawaii, and my kids were like six
months old when we got there, and two years old. So they were pretty young. But by the time they
were there, we were there for a year or two. The military police knew where your kids belong. They
knew what house. If they saw your kid running amuck someplace, "Yeah, maybe you had to go back to
your yard," you know, because-- And so from that standpoint, and military police are a different sort of
presence. They're more like the old neighborhood police officers. They're Marines essentially. And now
they have some civilians that do that on military bases. The other thing is: all your neighbors, you're all
in the same boat <laughs>. You know, you're gonna say, although, you know, you have sometimes
segregated housing based on rank. Um, um, and they [military bases] have their elementary school, they
have their grocery stores. They have their equivalent of a Walmart or 7-Eleven. They have their gas
stations, their fire department, the hospital. So you have a city, literally, or maybe even several towns,
like as big as Camp Pendleton is, there are several schools in like the northern part. Once you get to high
school, uh, and junior high, you go to San Clemente Public Schools.
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Visintainer:
Okay.
Jackson:
On the, on the eastern side, where I lived on the base, or southeastern side, you go to Fallbrook schools
and on the south side of the base, you go to Ocean-- your kids go to Oceanside schools. So, uh, but, um,
everybody's employed, you know?
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
There is a hierarchy, you know. If you're-- That is respected. Kids stop when they're hearing the national
anthem is being played every morning at eight o'clock. If they're at the playground in the morning at
eight o'clock, or when the flag's coming down in the evening at sunset, they'll stop. And you'll see
kindergarteners stand in position of attention, while getting off the swings and the teeter-totter or
whatever they call them now. And uh, it's kind of unique. Even my Great Dane used to know to stop and
sit when the national anthem was being played <laughs>, you know, just-- So it's a, and race is erased.
Mostly. I mean we're all a product of American society.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Um, um, and it's more, I would say it's more of a meritocracy in terms of what you experience and how
you experience, and your rank and your uniform automatically entitles you to X amount of respect. And
everybody rec-- and that includes the general has to respect the most junior person, you know. And so
uh, you're somewhat protected and there's rules that are, that are pretty strict, you know? And even
the, even the nurses in the emergency room got to know my sons <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
"Hey, Brian, what are you in here for this time?" You know <laughs>. He's a skateboarder. Bashed his
skull, skinned his face, you know, all of that stuff. And they know him. "Uh, okay. You're a Jackson kid. All
right. Okay."
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm. Do you, do you think that that experience was similar for your father?
Jackson:
No my dad, he lived a whole different world.
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Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
He's one of the stage setters. When he, when he was 17 years old, trying to get into the military in 1942,
Marines didn't accept Blacks into the military. It wasn't until a year later, you know. And he lived in
Texas, you know, grew up in Texas. And in his youth and for a long time, even through a portion of my
youth, Texas was one of the most violent places to be African American. I mean I had a, I had one of my
Marines, a master gunnery sergeant, a very senior enlisted Marine, who was my senior enlisted advisor.
And he's a Texan, African American. And his father was lynched in Texas. And so what's your, um-- You
know, so there's, there's, there's only a generation or two that separates you from that kind of conduct.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And when my dad joined the Army, it was segregated. Matter of fact, he was stationed at Fort Douglas
in Salt Lake City, 'cause that's where one of the last of the Buffalo Soldiers were stationed at, at, at, um,
even at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century, the Buffalo Soldiers had been stationed at Fort Douglas
in Salt Lake City. And so when they started bringing in African Americans into the US Army for World
War II, that became a place where they trained. And so they didn't have a USO [United Service
Organization], they had a USO for white soldiers, but they didn't even have a USO for Black soldiers. So
in creating a USO for Black soldiers, now they recruited my mother <laughs>, you know, to be one of the
hostesses. And that's how they met. And within two weeks they were married. Geez.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And they stayed married, you know. Um, so. And dad, I am sure when I see, you know, I think he was
extraordinarily smart, extraordinarily clever. And you had to be more clever to survive, I think, in those
days, because there were a lot of racial booby traps that you could walk into. And I think that, um, I
don't know all of the history of that, but he should have been, with the number of years he spent in, 24
years, he should have been a higher rank in most circumstances. And I won't recall what the family's
story is as to why, but I have pictures of him at a higher rank.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And then he retired at another rank, lowered, 10 years later, you know. So he was, so there was an
incident that occurred, I think, with my older brother, Matt. And he was, an officer had bumped him on
his bicycle and knocked him to the ground and knocked a tooth out, and when my dad was called to the
scene, this is more family lore, the officer used the N-word in referring to my, my brother. And the
officer was white, and my dad reflexively hit him. And he was a master sergeant at the time. And, uh,
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
this was when we lived in Germany. And my dad was a prize fighter too. He was really good. At one time
he was, uh, rated in the world and he was an alternate on the 1948 Olympic team as a light
heavyweight. And, um, and so, uh... But the army liked him enough to keep him, but they had to do
something. And so he became reduced in rank by one and then permanently put in that rank.
Jackson:
And he stayed in that rank for another, I want to say twelve years, which is not normal.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Even today or yesteryear, that wouldn't have been normal. So they liked him, but they [inaudible]. So he
paid a price that I could-- I didn't pay. And when I joined the Marine Corps, <laughs>, I'll never forget
what him saying, "Why did you want to join that redneck outfit?" Because remember, in [19]42, they
wouldn't take, they took a lot of, and it was [19]43, they had their first [Black] officer, they had their first
[Black] pilot in about 1950, first general African American in 1981, Frank Petersen. So it's uh, it was kind
of a, you know, my, my my answer to him was, if not me, who? Somebody has to be.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
I was not the first but I was one of the few at the time that came in. And General Petersen leading the
way, of course. But yeah, dad had a different life. Mom had a different life. She, I mean education, that
was the key difference. You know, is that I was fortunate my mother and father were both high school
grads and both of them believed in the power of education. So that was, I think it was really vital to the
development of all of us. And then coming to California, which when I came here, it was the number one
best school system, public school system in the nation. And I don't know-- If I understand, it doesn't rank
very high now, but when I came here, the, you know, from the high school to the community colleges, to
the state colleges and state universities, uh, it couldn't be better. So another lucky break for Tony
Jackson.
Visintainer:
Yeah. <Jackson laughs> Um, you mentioned your dad grew up in Texas.
Jackson:
Yeah.
Visintainer:
And he had kept a house there for quite a while.
Jackson:
Right.
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2023-03-7
Visintainer:
Was he particularly, uh, happy when he got stationed in Houston?
Jackson:
You know, that's something that I would've been too young. He was, he wasn't stationed in Houston. He
was stationed in another-- at, uh, Fort Hood, which is outside [Houston]. I don't think that-- he never
expressed that. And I was too young if he, if he emoted it to my mother, you know? That was, that
would've been grown-up talk back in those days.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
But Houston was segregated. It was, the schools were segregated. It was kind of ironic because I'd lived
on army bases. I'd done most of my-- Up until the time we moved to Texas, when I was in the third
grade, I did kindergarten, first grade in Germany at integrated school, at the military school on base. And
then we came out to California. But that was a short stay. But I did second grade in integrated schools.
Then all of a sudden, in third grade, I'm in this town and the part of town where dad had a house,
everybody's Black, the policeman's Black, the pharm is Black, the teachers and principals, they're all
Black. And that was the first, you know, uh, 1958. And, uh, it was, uh, it was very interesting. Corporal
punishment, <laughs>. That's the first time I met that one too.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Where the teachers could paddle you? Yeah. You, they, they, they still did that. I remember getting my
hand paddled because my writing was so poor <laughs>. Um, but, um... So we moved there [Houston]
because he did not want us probably to live in the part of Texas where that base was, and close to
relatives. He had a, uh, his, his half-sister lived there, the aunt that helped raise him lived in Houston.
And so, and his father lived in Houston. And so, uh, we lived there just a half mile or so from his sister
and my aunt, Juanita. And so, uh... And he never gave any indication that he wanted, um, wanted to live
there permanently in Houston. You know, I mean, the movie theaters, in those days, you had to sit in
the balcony, even the beaches were s-- you know, they had a rope. This was for white people. This was
for Black people. Don't cross the rope. The drinking. I remember as a 13 year-old doing a sit-in, in the
eighth grade, when we moved back there the second time, the civil rights movement was pretty
churned up. And young people, high school, college were doing sit-ins at, uh, at the drug stores that
didn't allow you to sit at the soda fountains. You might be able to buy something there, but don't sit
down at the counter. And I remember myself from a couple of my eighth and ninth grade buddies, we
decided, we were waiting for a bus, and we wanted a RC Cola and a moon pie.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
And we walked into the local drugstore to buy 'em, and we decided we were gonna sit at the lunch
counter, like all these kids were doing around the nation. So we did our little sit-in, and they, this big old
guy comes out from somewhere in the warehouse, and he's pounding on a billy club, like, "Hmm, what
are you kids doing?" But he didn't say anything to us, just the, the waitress behind the counter. She was
very nervous trying to get us to get up. And we looked over and saw him and just waved. And then our
bus came and we walked out. But it was our little, that was our little act of defiance. And every now and
then, you'd have to say if not me who? And so we sat at a lunch counter for a while, you know.
Visintainer:
So I had seen it in another interview. You'd referenced this, uh, lunch counter sit-in. Uh, didn't go into
detail. And so I wanted to ask you a few questions about it. So it was, uh, it was totally spontaneous?
You were-Jackson:
Yeah. It was spontaneous. We, it was, it was in the news. People were doing it in Virginia, in Memphis,
and, you know, and it was a, you knew there was a kind of a hazard you could end up, you know, uh... in
jail or something, you know. But we just, I think there's been a couple of times where I've been involved
in civil rights protests, but where you just have to do something, you know. I mean, I mean, you just-- I
watched my older sister, probably one of the greatest acts of defiance that I've ever seen: my older
sister, Betty, she's 80 years old yesterday, and she's just as tough as she was when she was. But I was
riding a bus with her in Houston, and this was in the fifties too, so it had to be about [19]58. And we
were riding across town, heading home, and we, we sat right in front of the bus. Whether she was
thinking, you know... You got to, she's, she's a pretty feisty little-- and then she would've only been
about 13 or 14, and I would've been third grade. And, so we sat in the front of the bus, and the bus
driver stopped, and the bus was crowded, and he wanted-- bus driver stopped and came out, told her
she had to get up, go back of the bus and let these white people sit down. And I'm like, "Hmm." I'm only
nine years old. So I'm like, hmm, this big old guy is <Jackson gestures>. And then she refused to move.
And, um... And then he balled up his fist and he threatened her, and she refused to move. And, uh, and
she just sat there, and then he had to go drive that bus <laughs>, and he left her alone the rest of the
ride. She never budged.
Visintainer:
That's very courageous.
Jackson:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the way she is. And so you, you know, I've seen, and, you know you grew up
with those pictures on tv, the Birmingham and all that stuff, and Little Rock and, bombings and kids
with-- and so you knew that there was this tension. But like I tell people, and I gave a speech the other
day for Black History. I was always a person that took literally the words of the, the, the preamble to the
Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Gettysburg Address. And I remember I had to
memorize the preamble in the Gettysburg Address and the first couple of paragraphs of the Declaration
of Independence when I was in segregated schools in Houston, Texas, in the ninth grade. And I took
those words literally.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Transcribed by
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Jackson:
And I looked at my dad's service, and he had obviously paid a, you know, paid for his citizenship,
wearing that uniform for 24 years. And so I always have had the feeling and, uh, that, "Hey, if you're, if
you're better than me, that means you can whip me in the football field or wrestling, or you can beat me
on the spelling bee or the math bee or something like that. But you don't automatically get that
<laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
That's not an automatic. <laughs> I walk through the door like you walk through the door, and then we'll
see how it goes.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And, uh, and I guess that's, I even, uh, even in my own career, I kept that same kind of attitude. And you
know, and I've got deep roots that in terms of where my family comes from, especially on my mother's
side. My wife does these great genealogies. And, I actually book brought the book that she has kind of
put together. Rather than just a photo album, she puts together genealogical albums, and they're kind
of cool.
Visintainer:
Nice.
Jackson:
I'll show you at some point if you want to see it.
Visintainer:
Yeah, I'd love to.
Jackson:
Yeah. But, so, but, you know. One of the things I do tell people, sometimes younger people is that, we
like to say that we're all born equal. And that's a kind of an idealistic sort of thing. But if your mother
was a drug addict and you were born addicted, you're not the same as the guy who's like, my kids, you
know, their dad was already an officer, and already was financially stable, their mother was healthy, a
registered dietician, and what she did during her pregnancy is very different than what this-- And so the
kids start out equal in terms of under whatever your religion is, under your god's eye, maybe they're
equal, but in terms of what the world's offering 'em right now, real different. Okay. And so things like
race-- and so I say, "Everybody's born with a backpack, and in that backpack is X amount of rocks." And
it's a little bit different, what the weight is at birth. Now, as you go through life, you can take out a rock
or you can add a rock. Some of 'em are based on choices of, of your own choice. And some of 'em are
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
based on family choices or just accidents. And race is one of those things that can either be, um, a rock,
a heavy rock in your pack. Or it can lighten your load. And that's one of the ironic things about it is for
my dad, it was probably a heavier rock, but for me, it lightened the load. It might have actually lightened
the load, you know? And so as we-- As you-- And so as a result of that, his carrying a heavy rock and me
having much lighter load, I owe him something. But more than that, I owe the next generation
something too for that. And, you know, does that make sense?
Visintainer:
Yeah, that's a wonderful analogy. And something I've never heard phrased that way.
Jackson:
Yeah.
Visintainer:
And I think it's, it's uh, befitting somebody who was in the military to talk about <Jackson laughs> weight
and backpacks.
Jackson:
Yeah, right, yeah. <laughter>, I guess, so <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Did you come up with the analogy when you were in the military,?
Jackson:
Yeah. Yeah, probably. I did. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. I was in you know, it is, uh, it's -- life is like that.
Now, and you, and a lot of times, and once you get to be a certain age, and I was telling this young man
that I met, he was very bold. He was in the high school, junior ROTC [Reserve Officers Training Corps] at
an event a month or so ago, and he walks right up to me having, I was introduced as a general.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And here's this, you know, maybe 14 year-old kid. He was in the ninth grade. And I said, "You know
what?" I said, uh, I asked him about his grades and all that. I said kind of, "You're lightening your load.
You're an honor student. You wear that uniform well. You're doing athletics, keep doing that. Everything
you do, it counts from the ninth grade on. I mean, that's when you're getting your GPA counts, you
getting your PSATs, you're doing all these kinds of things that people are gonna judge your next
opportunity on -- post high school." And says, "So, you young man are lightening your load, you know,
so keep it going."
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Transcribed by
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2023-03-7
Jackson:
Yeah. So it is kind of a, yeah. I guess it's military <laughs> speak. Can't help it <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah. Um, I just had one follow up question about, uh, about your drugstore sit-in. Well, actually, I guess
I had a couple. What was the drugstore?
Jackson:
You know, I'm trying to remember the, because I don't want to-- we had a lot of Walgreens in that part
of the country. So I think it was Walgreens at the time, that, uh, it was right at our bus stop. And, uh,
yeah. Then they, they became quite a target for students, you know?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
It's a, nowadays they don't even have the soda fountains in the drugstore like they did in those days, you
know? But yeah, I'm pretty, I'm about 90% sure it was Walgreens. Because number one, because I don't
remember any other of the drug stores that were there. And it was, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But-Visintainer:
Did, uh, did you ever tell your parents?
Jackson:
Yeah. Well, at that time, dad was someplace else. I think dad was stationed in close to the North Pole in
Greenland.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
Yeah. And so we were in Houston for that stay. And, um... And I probably told my mother. When I was
that [inaudible] age... I really, it was hard for me to imagine living beyond eighteen.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
We lived in Houston. You know, we lived-- we were bused to school past the white high school and
junior high into what you might call the ghetto. Fifth Ward in Houston. And it was nicknamed "Bloody
Fifth" for good reason, because somebody was getting killed kind of routinely. It was a very violent part
of Houston, Texas. And, uh, my junior high and eighth and ninth grade was in Fifth Ward. And my older
brothers and sister, they went to Phyllis Wheatley [High School]. I went to E.O. Smith [Junior High] which
was named after a African American poet. And, I was probably in a fight, like... I mean, here I was this
Transcribed by
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
guy that didn't have an accent. And I was marked, even my teacher, I remember my English teacher
mocking my, uh, "trying to talk like a Kennedy," she told me. She told the whole class, 'cause I was
reading something and she stopped me. And she, "What are you trying to talk like a Kennedy?" I said,
"This is the way we talk in my family." I didn't know this was any different, but yeah, coming to the
south, you're talking different and you don't have their accent. And, uh, and so I was kind of a prime
target for a while. And yeah. And fortunately I played football and you know, and I had two big bad older
brothers. And so, but it was like-- you know, you had to fight. And then right in the middle of ninth
grade, I moved to Oakland.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Which hardly <laugh>, is just that much better. <Jackson holds up fingers about an inch apart, laughs>
But that was only two fights. So that was quick and easy. And fortunately we were all trained to box and
stuff like that, so it turned out all right. But really when I was fourteen, fifteen, I thought eighteen would
be, "Yeah. Eighteen's about right." You know?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
You know, so you, you, you were already, you know, so when I say I'm <laughs> seventy-three, you
know, I'm a happy camper. <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jackson:
Exceeded expectations. <laughs>. Yeah.
Visintainer:
Um, I was curious about when your, when your father was deployed, you said he was deployed to Korea
and was he deployed in World War II?
Jackson:
He was in World War II, but I was not even born, and so the war, he wasn't deployed. He had seven kids
by the time Vietnam, so the Army wouldn't send him. You know, that would've been quite a burden. So
he did not, well, he served during the Vietnam War in the early stages, he never deployed to Vietnam.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
The family member that got deployed to Vietnam was my older brother, Matt.
Visintainer:
Okay.
Jackson:
He was, he was drafted. Uh, and yeah, the way it worked out was that my older sister had graduated
from high school. I ended up being the first one to graduate from college, just 'cause my older sister, it
wasn't the norm or the expectation. And she had gotten married and had a kid, so, and she's probably as
smart or smarter than every one of us. And then Matt, my older brother, there wasn't the financials in
the family and he had gone to [Jackson makes chopping motion with hand] four. Different. High schools.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Every year. And so, although he's a better athlete than I ever was, he was never recognized in one spot,
scouted out by universities or anything. So he ended up going to Chico State [California State University,
Chico] a year later on an English literature scholarship. Um, and because he was a year behind his peers,
he didn't have the college credits necessary to avoid the draft. And so he got drafted.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
And then he goes in the army, goes to Vietnam and gets really some disease and maybe even Agent
Orange. Uh, he-- affected him very badly over there. And so he was medically evacuated from Vietnam
to San Francisco. There was a big army hospital in San Francisco and eventually discharged, got his GI
bill, went back to college, got his B.A., Got his master's degree, and became a dean of students up at
Butte [California] Community College. So he lived a really good life.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Great kids, two outstanding kids. And then a terrific wife, Billie. Billie passed away a couple years ago,
but she's just been selected, gonna have a big induction ceremony through the Chico State Hall of Fame.
And so she, and here's his daughter is the CEO, Joy is the CEO. It's not the GRE but there's another
graduate record thing, you know, and so Matt did well, so. Don, my older brother, short time in the Air
Force, booted him out for whatever he did wrong <laughs>, you know, but I'm the only one that made it
a career [inaudible]. So, uh, um, yeah. But, but mom was always that glue. Just like my wife Sue is the
glue for my boys and who did most of the child raising. I had this big strong boxer-soldier dad that I
really looked up to and was my lifetime hero. But mom was actually doing the hard work.
Visintainer:
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Yeah.
Jackson:
And probably the same thing in my family in terms of, you know, dad's a Marine and a officer and doing
his thing and going away and, and, but the military spouses who get left behind, they do a lot of the
child raising, set the standards. And so when people say thank you for your service, they really ought to
be talking to the spouses. <laughs>
Visintainer:
Well, and that's something I was kind of curious about in that, when, when somebody's deployed, and if
there's, I guess this is kind of a complicated question that I'm formulating as I go along, so I apologize if it
gets a little jumbled, but when somebody's deployed, like in your father's time, um, were there support
services involved with the Army to help out, to help out the parents that were staying and raising
children? Or were they more informal in nature?
Jackson:
They were very, very, very informal. Not, and I, quite frankly, I can't-- I can't say I have memories of
during my father and mother's time that they had the support services which are ingrained in the
services now. And even when I came in, to be honest, in [19]75, the military's attitude, the Marine
Corps' attitude was probably, well if the, if the Marine Corps wanted you to have a, wanted you to have
a spouse they’d have put her in your, in your sea bag when they issued you the gear. Was that in there?
Okay. <laughs> And that was probably the attitude. It wasn't until the eighties that the Navy and the
Marine Corps, and I'm not quite sure when the Army, but I'm sure about the same time with them, we
started putting together really substantial programs. And first it, it revolved around volunteers and-- but
organized in what they call the Key Volunteer Program. And in the Navy it was the Ombudsman
Program. And, and, and that, and that was in the eighties. And in, in the, in the, um, 2000s, as we were
getting more involved in the Middle East, they actually started hiring family counselors, Members that
take, they literally took the place, for each battalion, they would have professional kind of family
counselors. And so, and they still had the Key Volunteers, but then they paid people and they had, uh, it
was presumed prior to that, that the wives, an officer's wife, the senior officer's wife, would take the
lead whether she was-- wanted to or not. It was, it was presumed that that would happen or the senior
enlisted wife would team up with her and they would take care of all the younger ones and all that. And
there were just some women who were not, you know, not that social or did not want to do that, or
were-- wasn't in their personality. So there was a lot. When I was a young commanding officer, a
company, I knew if I was over in the Far East in Japan or something and with my whole company and
Corporal Ramos' wife was about ready to have a baby here at Camp Pendleton I'd call my wife, buy
some flowers for Corporal Ramos' wife, put his name on 'em and take 'em over to the base hospital and
make sure she knows that he's thinking about her. And my wife was willing to do that, you know?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And so, and I would willingly <laughs> pay for it out of my pocket too.
Visintainer:
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Yeah.
Jackson:
Uh, but it, it, it's, it is now much more formal and it's expected and it's expected in the military, and now
you have a lot of, we probably have more daycare centers per capita than the, than regular society, you
know? There's, I forget, there's a half a dozen or more daycare centers on Camp Pendleton. Miramar has
theirs all the bases and have the childcare centers. And so I think that there's much more, the military
has taken a, uh, realize happy wife, happy spouse. You're more likely to have a career, [inaudible]
soldier, sailor, marine.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
You're taking care of the family too.
Visintainer:
It makes sense in terms of retention and morale and all of that, yeah.
Jackson:
All of that. You know, one of the things I found is it translates in many ways to combat power. You know
that no matter what happens to you, that your family's gonna be taken care of and you're gonna be
taken care of. And so that's, that gives you strength, that gives every marine, every soldier, every sailor,
that kind of strength. You know that I saw in other foreign armies that you got wounded and you're not
killed you, you [shakes head]. So their soldiers weren't as aggressive.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Uh, they didn't have the same initiative to, you know, and it is not because they were less, you know, a
man or less brave. It's just that they had that, well, there's no VA [Veteran's Administration], there's no,
there's no widow's pension. There's no, you know. And so he's gotta be a little bit more careful, you
know? So-Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
It does equate the combat power.
Visintainer:
I's a, it's a rock in your pack perhaps.
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Jackson:
Yeah. In terms of success for the mission that you're about ready to accomplish.
Visintainer:
Yeah. Okay. Um, <Visintainer coughs> excuse me, you mentioned the Key Volunteer Program and so I,
so I understand like the, you know, the purpose of a counselor or the purpose of a daycare-Jackson:
Mm-hmm.
Visintainer:
But I was curious as to what the Key Volunteer Program, like what their purpose was, what types of
activities they undertook, and as a support-Jackson:
I, I think the main focus was to make sure if the families had a need, that it was taken care of while the
service member was overseas. And a lot of times the wives would organize parties and picnics for the
kids and, uh, things like that. Or they would exchange phone numbers so that you knew who to call in
case of, you know, <laughs>, there's a rattlesnake in the garage the day after your husband left, you
know, the car broke down <laughs> the day after your husband left. Um, uh, so, but the whole idea of
the Key Volunteer Program was to make sure that the families knew where to go when they needed
support, when the spouse was deployed overseas. Uh, and, uh, and they were literally volunteer in the
most part. In the early days, you didn't get guys, it was mostly the wives, but now we have more you
know, the, the... The military member may be the, the, the, the, the woman and the man is now the
spouse that needs help when-Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And you. And so that was the whole point of the, um, the Key Volunteer Program: to bring them
together, they knew there was a tight-knit family that would help take care of-- It was kind of like, uh,
East Battalion had its own village, you know? And the village was designed to take care of, of all of the
people that were left behind. Yeah.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
So yeah,
Visintainer:
That's, that's pretty interesting. I'd never, never heard of this, uh, program before.
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Jackson:
Yeah. It's a, it's a really good program. They professionalized the lead person at the battalion in about
two thousand and three. A battalion's about a thousand Marines. Like on Camp Pendleton you have
battalions and squadrons. Squadrons is the aviation equivalent of a battalion. And they would all have a
senior lady, and they put, they actually had paid people do that. I think they're maybe toning that down
a little bit with no war, but they still have the program. Uh, um, and, uh, yeah.
Visintainer:
<Visintainer coughs> Excuse me. Um, let's talk about how you decided to enlist. So I understand you
were, you were graduated with a master's [degree] at this point.
Jackson:
Yeah.
Visintainer:
You were working and-Jackson:
Well, let's see. I got married. Sue and I got married. We met at San Jose State [University]. Um, I had
always aspired to be an officer. I thought I'd join the Army when I-- I was in ROTC just for a short while,
at San Jose State in Army ROTC. And, it didn't sit well with all the other things that I was doing. But I still
aspired to be an officer. Okay. I met my wife in an anatomy and physiology class in Spring of 1969. And,
um, and it was a night class, so I would just walk her back to her sorority and I'd go down the street to
my dorm. It was just a matter of safety and coming out of class after nine o'clock in an urban
environment. And, and that was it. We didn't date or anything. I would just escort her.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
You know, football player escorting pretty sorority girl home. And she's only two blocks from, or three
blocks from where I was staying in the dorm. But the next fall, we were on campus and I met her on
campus, just kind of bumped into each other again, not thinking much of that previous spring. And she
said she had moved outta the sorority house, "come on over." So, <Jackson makes "I don't know"
expression> mm-- you know, I was a little reluctant, you know, uh, blonde blue-eyed. And those days I
wasn't dating blonde, blue-eyed <laughs> gals. So I recruited a couple more football players, Black, to
come over and visit her and her friends, just so it would be-- And uh, son of a gun if the three football
players and her three roommates all left and went to a party! <laughter> So there we were, you know,
and, uh, we studied together and then we got to start getting together on Thursday nights just to study.
My grades shot up <raises hand, laughs>, which was really good. And she was a home ec[onomics]
major, and so she'd experiment with foods with me and being a football player, I could take all the
calories she could pump out, you know. So I'd get an extra meal every day, <laughs> kind of, every
Thursday, when we'd get together. And then finally by the end of that semester, or close to it, I said,
"Are we an item?" You know? And we decided that we were an item. So 1970 rolls around, and we, we
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2023-03-7
decide to get permission from her side of the family. My side of the family reluctantly accepted the
interracial dating, my dad being a Texan, that, that, you know, he had bad memories of that stuff.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And, uh, my mother was, she loved everybody no matter what. But her [Sue's] parents weren't real
happy.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
So the explosion went off and which actually drove us tighter together. We just wanted to date openly.
Um, I often say that we had gone to see the movie, Guess Who's Coming To Dinner with Sidney Poitier...
And, uh <laughs>. And when her parents found out about it, and I suddenly realized I was not Sidney
Poitier. It wasn't gonna work out. But that sort of drove us together. And within, uh, four or five months,
I just asked her to marry me. And, uh, because her family disowned her for the very fact that we'd
gotten-- we were wanting to date.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And they didn't want her to date. And I had never told her I loved her.
Visintainer:
Yeah. Wow.
Jackson:
We just wanted to date openly. And so... We uh, as the, as the, her world crowded in on her to try to
break us up, it forced us together and me to be more defensive of her. And her-- she stood her ground.
And uh, I once told my mother, "Well I don't know what love is, but I know what sacrifice is, and she has
opted to date me," as opposed to a family that-- I mean, she's 21 years-old, you don't just give up your
family. Her family gave up her, you know, and so, and that was just her mother and father by the way,
not cousins or grandparents. Um, uh, and so. Uh, we got married. I asked her at Thanksgiving in 1970,
"Hon, will you marry me?" You know, and she said, "When?" <laughs> I had no idea when <laughs>. I
said, "semester break!" <laughs>.
Jackson:
It was my senior year. She was in grad school. And, uh, so I didn't have a job, but I'd just played my last
football game the previous Saturday. And so the scholarship was gonna run out at the end of, uh, at
graduation. So I was on time, Four years you know, because four years scholarship, you know, and, uh,
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so, uh... I s--, but I didn't have any rings or anything. So I go, um, but there was one alum, and this is
another reason why I will have to reach back. There was one alum, Paul Barracker, little Jewish guy. He
owned, I thought he only owned one jewelry store. He ended up owning four. But this little guy. And I
told her [Sue], I asked her on Thanksgiving to marry me. And I said -- when we get back, we were visiting
her sister in Sacramento -- "When we get back to San Jose, we'll go to Paul's Jewelers, downtown San
Jose, and we'll get rings." Now, I didn't have a nickel.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
<laughs>. That's the ironic self-confident naive, uh, kid I was, I guess. And so Monday rolls around and
we go down to Paul's, which is just, you could walk off campus, to Paul's-Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And Paul's in the store. It's one of these stores that, you know, straight in downtown, it's jewelry on this
side, jewelry on that side, just walk back to the counter. Very narrow store. Paul's in the back and he
sees me come and I, you know, he was an alum who would come to football practice, sometimes fly to
the games on the same plane as the team. So that's how I knew him.
Visintainer:
Okay.
Jackson:
As this alum who supported football, not as a friend. I mean, he was old enough to be obviously my dad
or, or, or maybe even older than that. And Paul comes running out, I mean, little bitty arms. I could wrap
my hand around his bicep, close my fingers. Right. And he's in a football stance. "Tony so good to see
you!" "Paul, hold it!" He's really enthusiastic.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Old European kind of an accent. And, uh, he-- I said, "Paul, hold it. I want you to meet my fiancé, Sue."
And he said, "Oh, so pleased to meet you, Sue!" Does this double handshake. I'll never forget this. And
then he goes, I said, "Well, what are you doing?" I said, "Paul, I came to buy, uh, our wedding rings and
engagement ring." He says, “Oh, good! Good, good, good!" I said, "But Paul, I don't have any money, so
if you hire me, I'll start to work." He says, "Okay! Okay, okay. You stop bothering me. Go back, talk to my
secretary, fill out the application. You can come to work. Sue, you can buy anything in the store."
<laughs>. So I got, I got a job selling jewelry through <Visintainer laughs>, through grad school, paid for
those rings. I come to find out just a few years ago that Sue gave him a $25 down payment or
something, but she just told me that.
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Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
But I worked for Paul. He taught me all about sapphires and all the diamonds and his jeweler, the guy
who made some of the jewelry, he would teach me. He was from France. And he would, we had, I'd give
him some English lessons, and now he liked my accent because it was flat.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
You know, it didn't come with a New York or a twang or anything like that, accent. And so we exchanged
a little bit of, he would teach me about clarity and diamonds, and I would clarify some words he didn't
understand. Okay. But I did that for about a year and a half. And I also, uh, coached at a junior college -football -- and realized that I didn't want to be a football coach. But I had finished my master's degree,
started my PhD at UC [University of California] Santa Cruz in history. And just, and I was teaching a class
-- History of Third World Peoples -- as a grad student. And I just said, "Stop." <laughs>, "I gotta, I gotta
get on with life." Sue was a high school teacher.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And so I actually went to work for an insurance company. So time is marching on. In the back of my
mind, I still want to be a military officer. I still, war is going on in Vietnam, and I'm sitting here now, I'm
in the insurance business. I'm making a lot of money. We bought a house in what became Silicon Valley.
I can't even afford that house now. But bought a house. She got tenured. I was making a lot of money in
the insurance business. My boss was really glad that I decided, you know, again, I was offered several
jobs.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
You know, when I finally decided to work, he tried to recruit me right outta college. And my, before I-Right when Sue and I got married, he tried to get me to go to work for him at his insurance company,
and I'd turned it down, but now here I was a year or two later and I was working for him and he was
really good. It was like having somebody, being in a master's degree class, the Michael Anderson Agency
with Penn Mutual Life. And this guy, Mike Anderson, was just a terrific teacher and mentor. And, and so
I got off to fast start under his wing in insurance, and I was the consummate kind of, you know, I'd just
been the captain of the football team, and all that [inaudible]. I'd been in San Jose for five years and all
that stuff. So I knew a lot of people. And so I could contact them.
Visintainer:
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TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
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Yeah.
Jackson:
But one day I was with a bunch of clients in, uh, in, uh, Candlestick Park, the old Giants, San Francisco
Giants watching the Giants and Dodgers play in May of 1975. And across the screen, the-- from days on
end, you saw pictures in the news of Marines and soldiers evacuating people from Saigon [now Ho Chi
Minh City, Vietnam] and helicopter, dramatic, people holding onto the rails of helicopters trying to get
out as the North Vietnamese took over the country. And the same thing was happening in Camb-Cambodia, and Phnom Penh. And so, uh, I... And an American ship, the U.S.S Mayaguez had been
captured by the Khmer Rouge, a communist group, and we didn't know where the sailors were from
that ship. And across the screen at the ballgame <Jackson holds hands in front of self and widens them>,
kind of the old ticker tape kind of thing.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
"US Marines, recapture the Mayaguez." Said the thing. And I'm sitting here with hotdogs and beer and
entertaining clients at a game. So the next day I put on my suit and I went to a recruiter. Didn't tell my
wife. He goes, "Hey, you go to college?" And I said, yeah. And he said, "Well, you need to go see the
officer selection offer in Alameda." So I took all my tests, signed up all in one day, came home and told
her <laughs>. I remember the guy, he goes, "Do, you wanna, you want me to come home? I got a great
movie we can show your wife. About what you're about ready to experience." I said, "You don't want
me in my house tonight," <laughter>, "When I tell her what I just did." So I became private Anthony
Jackson for a while before I went off OCS [Officer Candidate School]. But I was twenty-six, I was running
out of time, and these guys were serving overseas, risking their lives. And here I had done nothing to
really validate what I thought. And my idealistic view was to validate my citizenship and ensure that you
could never deny me. As my father did, as my little brother did. So-Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And I still promised my wife it would only be for three years. Said, "Three honey. That's it." I actually got
out and went into the reserves for about a year in keeping that three-year promise, which really, I was
kind of sliding. I didn't realize I was gonna, eh long-- I found that the Marine Corps was my calling.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And even I got out, went to work, another high-paying job. Got, they gave me a brand new car with
Kaiser Aluminum & Chemical, and sent me to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. But I just couldn't believe I'd be
working. Uh, and I, so I joined a reserves unit to stay in touch, and then I realized that I started living for
that reserve weekend.
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Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And not what I was doing with Kaiser and, uh, and money wasn't important to me. And so I asked the
Marine Corps to take me back, and the rest is kind of history at [inaudible] point.
Visintainer:
Had you ever expressed to Sue before you, uh, before you enlisted, that you had this idea?
Jackson:
Yeah, she knew that. She knew that that was kind of in my bones, but I really wanted-- I, in the first
couple years with that flare-up in her family over our marriage, I wanted to make sure we had a solid
marriage.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Before I all of the sudden ran off and left her, you know. I really did. I think that was why I delayed for so
long, uh, was, you know, that was a pretty big sacrifice on her part.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And it was never healed back up. I never, I had never met my-- I met my mother-in-law, but I never did
meet my father-in-law. Although we did have a civil conversation on the phone one time. But that was
the only time I even talked to him. And that was in like 1978. So, um, and then he passed away. As if-- it
was ironic because he and I should have been really good friends. We're, you know, he's a naval officer.
He was a World War II destroyer escort. And he had, he'd graduated from UC Berkeley, their ROTC
program. He was down here in San Diego when Pearl Harbor was attacked, on his reserve duty and
mobilized right away. And they sailed into Pearl Harbor just the week after. You know, he was still
smoldering. Things were still, they were still trying to find guys that were in capsized ships that were still
alive. And, um, and he kept a diary. And, a part of that time, he had great distinguished service during
World War II, became the CO [Commanding Officer] of a ship. He was a junior ensign when Pearl Harbor
happened, but he had his own ship by the time the war ended. And, uh, and then he retired as a Navy-captain in the Navy, in the reserves, started his own business in, uh, he became a plumbing contractor,
not a-- the guy that supplies all the contractors with all their gear. And during the boom years of growth
in the Bay Area and made millions. And of course my wife probably didn't know how many millions he
made, but she was disinherited. And that was, that was, uh, <laughs> her sister got it all when he passed
away. And that's probably how we found out. But, um, and so, yeah. She's, she's tough <laughs>.
Visintainer:
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TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
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Yeah.
Jackson:
You know, and, and held her ground and, uh, and it has been a source of strength and you don't really
recognize all those things. She is motivating. She won't take credit, but she has been a prime motivating
factor in my life. Um, uh, I mean she has her own, she has her own opinions, her own thoughts, et
cetera. But, you know, you want to, you want to do well for those who believe in you kind of a deal.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
So you know, I've always wanted, I mean, I've taken great risk at times without thinking about that, but I
think one of the things that's always in the back of my mind is that, you know, I do owe this woman
something <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
You know, so don't screw it up, buddy. <laughter> But that means certainly you have to be a person of
strength, especially if you're in an organization like the Marine Corps. You know, you're not a yes
person. I mean, you can't be a yes person. I mean, you, you, you, you have to gauge when you should
engage and you have to engage when you should just, maybe just shut up, but be willing to take on the
right fights, you know? And sometimes you win 'em, sometimes you lose 'em, but don't back down until
it's time to back down and then have the judgment to know when it's time to back down, you know. So
it's kind of a give and take thing, because sometimes you're the boss and sometimes you're the junior
guy that has to execute the plan.
Visintainer:
And having that judgment, I think is really difficult when you're, uh, so invested in something.
Jackson:
Yeah.
Visintainer:
And I imagine if you're in the Marine Corps and you're in a situation where you need to have that
judgment, you're very invested in it.
Jackson:
Yeah. And, uh, and I've been on those sides of that, you know. I've lost an argument and then had to be
the presenter, you know?
Visintainer:
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
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Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
You know, you're the guy that, uh, "Wait a minute! I was the only one in the room that objected." "Yeah.
But you're, you're the communicator." <laughs> "You're gonna communicate it up the chain, right?"
"Wait a minute, I'm-- there were twelve guys that agreed with you, sir." "Yeah, Tony, but you were the
most articulate, you're presenting it! <laughs> Just make sure you win!" <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
"When you present it up the chain, you know?" So I've been on that side of the coin. And, you know,
you-- And the other thing is, I did appreciate the Marine Corps. That the Marine Corps appreciates
strength and not weakness, not, you know, it appreciates the fact that you will pick the right time and
place. You know, you don't want to embarrass the boss, but will you challenge him? And so you have to
have that combination of moral courage and judgment and communication skills to win over when it's
not <laughs>, it may not be a smooth subject. Okay? I think that is both been an asset and may have
cost me a little bit of something at some point, but not nothing that-- I mean, my career exceeded my
expectations. I'm not a Naval Academy guy. I'm not an ROTC guy. I didn't come out as a 21 year-old. I
came in as second oldest guy in my OCS platoon. There was one other army guy that was a former
soldier that was older than me, but I was, I was already as a-- the same age as my first bosses, my first
commanding officers when I was a second lieutenant. And so I was always kind of -- agewise -- I think
that was an edge, actually, that lightened my load because I had a sense of humor and I wasn't afraid of
the process. <laughs> I wasn't afraid of the process. Yeah. Because you had to. Yeah. When you go to
OCS or recruit training, like down here in San Diego, you just have to drop who you are.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
For that twelve weeks. You gotta just drop who you are and accept that you're gonna be a mold. You get
to be who you are once you get out of that process, you know, of them breaking you down and building
you back up. So I think my age was actually a benefit. Because of my body was still, uh, easily willed into
Marine Corps shape. So, yeah. And having a dad who was a sergeant in the army probably helped me a
lot too.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
I already knew how to make a military bed, <laughs> you know, to inspection standards. <laughs> We
did that before we went to Sunday school. We got inspected. You know, it's really funny about not
remembering this as a kid. You're standing in front of your bunk just like I did at OCS, and your dad's
inspecting the shine on your shoes and the crease in your trousers and stuff like that, you know,
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2023-03-7
<laughter>. And here you are, you're ten, you're ten years old, and dad's throwing a quarter on the bed
to see if it bounces. The bed's that tight. The bed has to be tight enough of that coin to bounce up, you
know? So Yeah. We got those inspections on Sundays.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Boys lined up <laughs>. Uh, yeah. But, uh, yeah. So, yeah. So it's been what? Sue and I have been
married, yeah, we just celebrated our 52nd [wedding anniversary], you know-Visintainer:
Congratulations.
Jackson:
Whew. Yeah. That's, uh, it's been, it's been a road. It's been a good road. 'Cause we, you know, we, we,
we have a lot of things. I tell her that the reason why we're a successful marriage is because we have
absolutely nothing in common. <laughs> You know? I'm a hunter and she's a doggone near herbivore.
You know, not quite, but <laughs>, you know, uh, yeah. And we, we, we have a lot of, a lot of
differences, which make it kind of good because she has her leans, and I have my leans, you know?
Visintainer:
Yeah. It gives you space to be your own person and you can come together around commonalities.
Jackson:
Right, right. And so, and then we'll come together for like a trip to the Sierras [Sierra Nevada mountain
range]. Well I'll do fishing, and she'll do her native plant art, her botanical art. She likes to do that. And,
uh, and so it's really kind of interesting. They'll come back at the end of the day, she'll show me her
drawings and I'll show her my one little fish. <laughter> So, yeah. But, uh,
Visintainer:
Excuse me. So, um, so you've had a really long and distinguished career and I don't think we have time
to go through it in like, phase, you know, and, and every phase of it. So I'd like to skip forward just a bit
towards the end of your military career.
Jackson:
Okay.
Visintainer:
And talking about the work that you did, as I understand it, as the commander of, marine camps, Marine
Corps, Installations West.
Jackson:
Right.
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Visintainer:
Um, and so this is a, this is a big deal, right?
Jackson:
This is the culmination of, uh, um, all of my general officer assignments were big deals, I thought. I
mean, they were shocking the amount of responsibility a nation was willing to give a person and this
special trust and confidence that you build up over, you know, twenty-eight, twenty-nine years and they
finally make you a general. Um, so, uh, if you don't mind, I'll talk about the first assignment. I was, uh-here, I was selected for my first star as Brigadier General. And I was given the assignment to be the
Deputy Commanding General for Marine [Corps] Forces Central Command. MARCENT in shorthand. So,
which meant that I was gonna be the deputy for first General [Wallace "Chip"] Gregson, then General
[John F.] Sattler, and then general, I had three generals who became my bosses, general [James N.]
Mattis. Um, so in that capacity, my headquarters, I had two headquarters, one in Tampa, Florida, where
Central Command is, and one in, Bahrain, which is on the Arabian Gulf near Saudi Arabia. And, my main
job was to ensure that commanders and marines in contact on the battlefield had what they need.
You're, you're the link for, the commander needs this, and industry makes it, and your headquarters.
You were the judge on whether: did they really need it? And if they really needed it -- which I always
agreed with the commander on the battlefield, because he knew his needs -- does the industry have it?
And if headquarters is fighting it, tell them to get it, we're buying it. And I had that budget too, and so I
would visit the battlefields and visit the commanders, uh, both Afghanistan and Iraq during that two
year assignment. And they, and, and the-- so being in and out of the battlefield, it was different than
being deployed. I had been deployed to Iraq as a colonel, but as a general, I was in and out. And I would
also do diplomatic stuff in Egypt for the United States military. In Egypt, in Pakistan, and Bahrain and
Oman. And I would go around and visit the military commanders and my peers. And, um, but the most
critical thing I did was teaming up with a scientist named Susie Alderson, who is from right here in
Fallbrook. And we, the battlefield, the commanders were wanting a vehicle that was more durable and
could sustain the improvised explosive device explosions [IEDs]. And we just did not have that. Uh, we
had the vehicle that our, our, our explosive ordinance disposal teams, they had a vehicle called a mine
resistant, ambush protected vehicle, an MRAP. And if they got hit by a mine, it, because these guys went
out into mine fields all the time and diffused them, or blew 'em up or whatever. They had this one
special vehicle that the South Africans had developed that MRAP, but the [US armed] services weren't,
they were sold on the Humvee for some reason. We were taking horrific casualties from these
improvised explosion devices. Taking off arms, legs, killing people. And so when I was in Afghanistan, I
had a United, I visited this United Nations mine clearing team, and they invited me to ride in one of
these South African-built MRAPs as they were gonna clear mines. And here this general, my aide was a
young captain. He did not want to get in that vehicle, but they had kind of like, "come on for the ride,"
okay sort of challenge you.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And I'm in a helmet, flack jacket. I've even got ballistic protection where it really counts <laughs>, you
know, and, uh, so, and these guys were dressed much like you.
Visintainer:
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Yeah.
Jackson:
And so I took-- accepted their ride, and we hit probably seven mines, more?
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
But they were all -- fortunately -- anti-personnel mines. And so we got rattled and we could hear the
shrapnel hitting the sides of the vehicle, but we were okay. But-Visintainer:
What did that feel like when you hit a mine that first time?
Jackson:
Well, this vehicle was pretty solid, right?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
I mean, what it, what it just, it kind of set off alarms and gives you a little adrenaline rush. And it was
kind of like if you'd had, you ever had a rock hit the windshield in front of your car? The way it smacks
that hard.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Yeah. It's like a bunch of those at once. <laughs> Except they're hitting metal, so you-- And I could see
our chase! They gave us a chase vehicle just in case we got stranded out there, you know, vehicle
breakdown. And I could see he was hitting them too. So it wasn't doing any, anybody, any good. The
Soviets had laid a lot of mines and they were just, they were just horrible in Afghanistan, 'cause they put
'em in these farmers' fields so they wouldn't grow, couldn't grow crops. And that's what the UN was
doing there, clearing them as we were fighting Taliban or whoever else.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And so I came home. I had this passion to get this vehicle, and I had, but I wasn't gonna be able to do it.
Generals, the Army had refused, the Marine Corps had refused to get this vehicle. There was a whole, I
didn't realize this fight was going on. I just knew my experience. And I had seen them before. General
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Gregson had showed me one. And here comes Susie Alderson. She had been in Iraq for a number of
months, and she on her own initiative, she was a scientist assigned to me. And so she had been over
there. Um, mine was a new command, so they had just set up MARCENT to handle the Middle East. And
so I was the first permanent. So here I had this scientist assigned to me, and I hadn't tasked her with
anything mm-hmm. But she had been over there and she did a study on survivability in various vehicles.
So she had all the data laid out, if you're in this kind of, um Humvee you're gonna get killed. If you're in
this kind, ehhh, there's a 80% chance you're gonna get killed. You're gonna get your legs blown off. If
you're in this truck, this-- but if you're in this MRAP that the improvised explosive of the [inaudible]
explosive warning disposal teams, you're most likely only gonna feel concussion. Not a death.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
So I said, "Susie, great! That fits my passion." I called my staff together, put Susie and them together.
Said, "You got ten PowerPoint slides, and we're gonna present this to the three-star [general]. So you
[inaudible] no more than ten, they w-- general officers will fall asleep if you got more than ten
PowerPoint slides. Do not do that." So I left the room and left her to my staff to power-- come up. They
came in a couple hours later, "Sir, this is the brief." And I said, "Perfect." I didn't make a change to it.
Susie and my chief of staff put this, it was beautiful. I called up on a secure VTC [video teleconference]
because my boss was out here at Camp Pendleton, and here I was in Tampa. Got him on a little secure
video of the day and told Susie, "Susie, you're the briefer. The generals have never won this argument,
but you got the right voice." And, so she briefed it and they, General Sattler stopped it, or slide number
seven. Next thing you know, we called up the commandant, okay, he got it in three slides. And I started
buying these vehicles. I mean <laughs>, and I won't bore you with the technical part of it, but Susie's
data got those vehicles in within six or seven months. I mean, I sent her around to all the big vehicle
manufacturers in the US said, it's gotta have this transmission, it's gotta have this drivetrain, it's gotta
have this engine. And these are the three different prototypes that you can build. You know, the John
Deeres of the world that build heavy equipment, they changed assembly lines. They were happy to pitch
in.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And, uh, the first 300 [IED] hits in 2006, no Marine Corps deaths.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
So Susie becomes the mother of the MRAP and gets the highest decoration that a civilian can get in
peace time in the, in the Department of Navy. So that was a big deal. And then as a two, that was as a
one-star, that was one of the best effects as a one. As a two-star. I get assigned as the, uh, we have
these four star commands, combatant commands is what they're called. One for the Pacific, one for
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Europe, one for South America, um, Pacific, European Command, Southern Command... And, we're
gonna develop another one. And it's US Africa Command. And I'm chosen to be the first Director of
Military Operations and Logistics, the J3 and the J4 for that command, headquartered outta Stuttgart,
Germany and our focus would be the continent of Africa and all the associated islands. Minus Egypt.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
We kept Egypt in Central command. And, uh, so, uh, <holds arms wide> it's brand new! There's nothing
there. I mean, we're in rehabbed Army World War II buildings that belonged to the Wehrmacht in 1930.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Its [inaudible] journey. And so we gotta build this new command. And there were two two-stars there
that were, we had a four-star boss, uh, General Walls [William E. Ward] and uh, and the Air Force, his
[Wards's] chief of staff was an Air Force two-star. But I was the Director of Military Operations, which,
you know, is-- I mean, you're just, you're thinking about it for every military event that goes on in the, in
the continent of Africa that the US is involved in, you're gonna be the director and the advisor to the
Joint Chiefs of Staff and the president, the National Security Council, and the President of the United
States.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
You're gonna be the direct guy. And my boss was the kind of guy that, uh, general Ward, when I said
Walls-- General Ward was the kind of guy, he liked to do all the diplomatic high stuff, flying around,
meeting with heads of state and senior military. And he left the operational kind of running of things to
me. Which I liked, but it kind of was, uh, it was interesting. Sometimes I would just wonder, okay, if we
do this one, so probably the most prominent one would be in, um the, the pirates off the coast of Africa,
off of Somalia. And, uh, and we had, and they generally speaking stayed away from US ships. But they
would take these ships. These guys were once fishermen whose fishing industry... I mean the guys who
actually were the pirates, not the businessmen in London and Somalia, the kingpins in Somalia, the
warlords, but the ones who executed, the actual pirates, you know, they would get word from London
who's flagship, what cargo was on it, what the crew was, all that would come out of London. And they'd
filter it into Somalia.
Visintainer:
So there's somebody in London doing research to let them know what's headed their way? Wow.
Jackson:
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Yeah. And so, and they know what insurance company and all this, and these guys had been fishermen,
but the industrial fishing of China or Korea or Japan had just about depleted their waters. So they could
not-- and so you had an understanding from an intelligence standpoint of why there was this piracy,
these guys who could execute it. And they were just the lower end of the whole international cabal. ButVisintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
So, um, but when they captured the Maersk Alabama, uh, which was a U.S. Flagship. <shakes head> No
way. 'Cause we weren't gonna negotiate with those guys. So-Visintainer:
When was this?
Jackson:
This was 2008.
Visintainer:
Okay.
Jackson:
They captured the Maersk Alabama, probably the spring. With a U.S. crew on it. And, uh, so, um... let me
think. Yeah, I think that was under President Bush. Let me think for a second. 2009? Yeah, it was 2009. I
think that was, I think it was actually one of the first decisions that I had to get out of President Obama.
So that had to be 2009. And so it was very early in his term. So it was either late winter or early spring of
2009. And there was one guy, uh, the crew overpowered most of the pirates themselves. Without a gun
fight. But, a shot was fired. One of the pirates was injured. And, uh, three of 'em captured the captain, of
the ship, Captain [Richard] Phillips, and lowered a life boat and got off the ship. They made a movie
outta this.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And, um, and, uh... So now we had, they had a hostage. We had the ship back, but they had an American
hostage. And so myself, um, Admiral [William H.] McRaven was the head of our Joint Special Operations
Command out of Fort Bragg [now Fort Liberty] here. So he had the Navy Seals and all the special ops
guys. But they're, it was Africa's, AFRICOM's territory. My boss's out galivanting. So McRaven and I, we
had the [Navy] Seals put on standby and they started rehearsing. And we had -- it's amazing -- we do
several rehearsals on paper and drills. We had done a rehearsal of this on paper the year before. And so
we kind of knew what the plan would be, you know? We didn't know how it [would] end, the very end
of it, but we knew how we would get the right forces to the point that they could execute a mission. And
then once they were at that point, it was up to them exactly how, but getting them from the States to--
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
so McRaven and I reviewed the plan, called up the, the Joint Chiefs, the Secretary of Defense and the
Chairman [of the Joint Chiefs of Staff], and briefed the plan. And we both agreed that we had a good
plan to get the Navy Seals to be able to get the, the captain back. And we got pretty fast approval from
the president. I think that's what we were all surprised 'cause he's a young senator we were all grizzly
old admirals and generals older than the president, you know? And so we didn't have a lot of confidence
'cause these things are time sensitive, you know?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And, uh, we, you know. You know it ended sadly in one way, because we killed all three of the pirates.
Killed three of 'em. The one guy that survived was wounded when the crew took over. And so he, he was
medevacked to one of our ships prior to... And we, Captain Phillips, we brought him home and it was it.
So that was one, um, of a significant event. But I guess the thing is, is that you're making these life and
death decisions.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
That, you know, I would often tell myself that, "Hey, you have to look yourself in the mirror. And then
when you get to the pearly gates, he's the only one that can pass judgment on your, on your judgment."
You know, because there's been a couple of circumstances where, you know, you've directly impacted
whether or not people have lost their lives or you've taken life. And so, uh, it's-- it's just one of those
things and there's certain people that have to make those hardcore decisions and to think that you're in
that position. And so after two years of doing that, which was a real from the bottom up, creating a
command and all of the, I mean, <laughs> bringing tech, I mean we're, we're talking about copper wires
that were put in by the Germans in the 1930s under Hitler that we're pulling out and pulling fiber optic
cable on. So we're literally building buildings and running this command and making those kinds of
decisions and other decisions which have national significance, you know. And then I was the first
ordered to, or to go to Baghdad [Iraq] to be the chief of staff for our forces in Iraq for General [Raymond
T.] Ordierno. And, but my boss, General Ward, he'd have had to let me go early, but he had, he had
become so, uh, reliant on me -- and it was a new command -- and the Marine Corps promised him a full
two years that he would have me, because they had to convince him to take a Marine. He's an Army
four-star, and they had to convince him to put a Marine in that very position. And he, and he took me,
you know, he probably had some young Army two-star that he would've liked to put in there, but he
took me in on his command. And so when the Marine Corps said, "Hey, if you leave six months early,
you can go back to war." And which from a, from a Marines standpoint, it would've been best for me to
go back to Baghdad.
Visintainer:
Okay.
Jackson:
Transcribed by
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
And be the chief of staff for General Ordierno, that would open up more opportunities as a flag officer,
more senior rolls. But to get stationed at Camp Pendleton, my wife's a Californian. It was the alternative.
So when General Ward objected to me leaving six months early, it became, uh, the fallback was the
Marine Corps assigned me to be the Commanding General for Marine Corps Installations, West. MCI
West, which included seven Marine Corps bases out west, to be the senior guy and be stationed in my
wife's hometown in a place where we had owned homes in the past.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Great place for my kids to go to school. And, and so, and my kids had already, I had in 2004... In 2002,
my oldest son graduated from Fallbrook High. He got, we came here in [19]98 and he-- my wife said, "I
don't know where you're gonna be for the next four years, but we're going to be here as the kids go to
one school."
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And so Brian was on his 10th or 11th school then going into the ninth grade. And so I deployed to Japan
in 2002 as a colonel. And then my other son, Blaine was gonna graduate in 2004. And so I went overseas
and the family stayed on base at Camp Pendleton. And then I came back and from the Far East, 'cause I
didn't do the initial march to Baghdad. And I joined the unit at Camp Pendleton and we're ordered back
to Iraq. And the theme went on, "I don't know where you're gonna be, but we're gonna be here." So
Blaine graduated in 2004 from Fallbrook High. He got all his four years at one school. And so they were
already locked in. And the wife, when I went over to Japan, I left her to, uh... She was, had chosen some
land five acres in Fallbrook in 2000. Yeah. 2000. She chose five acres of this <holds hands out, palms
up>. "There's nothing here, honey." She says, "Well, I'm designing a house with an architect." I said,
"Great! <Visintainer laughs>. Then I got ordered overseas <laughs> and left her to build a house. And so
I departed. I came home to help her move in to a house from the base to this house that she designed
with an architect. And she interviewed five or six general contractors and hired one and stayed on the
work site. I was in, doing things for the nation in Japan, Korea, and Philippines. And I came back home
and helped her move in and then came back from a year without family and was here for four or five
months. And we got redeployed the whole, all the, most of the combat Marines at Camp Pendleton
went back to Iraq in the Al Anbar Province. And I was the Plans Officer, kind of responsible for getting all
the beans, band aids, bullets, people over there and married up with their equipment on a timeline, and
then be the last man to <laughs> to, to, arrive. And I remember getting there and sitting in the, getting
down, getting ready to eat a meal as my host was showing me where I was gonna sleep that night and
all that. And we get a bunch of incoming rounds and the whole chow hall emptied out, two of us are
sitting there. And I said, "Well, there's no point in running. You might run into one <laughs>, you might
run into incoming." So we went ahead and finished our meal while the stuff was coming down. You
know, <laughs>, it's random.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Jackson:
You know?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
It's random. And so, when I got stationed back here, the wife had come to live with me when I, we
finally got to live together. That was, there was that time period from 2002 to 2007 that we never really
lived together.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Because I was in Tampa. She stayed here with the boys, and then they both started college. And, and I
got orders to go overseas to Africa command in Stuttgart. And I said, "Hey, it's your home country.
Would you like to come with me?" So she came over there for the year and a half or so. And the boys
were going to college and doing what college-aged guys do without parents.
Visintainer:
Yep.
Jackson:
To provide any guidance. Jeez. And then, so when I got stationed, uh, the fallback position from not
going over again to Baghdad was here. It was beautiful for family. And I knew that that would be my
twilight, my last tour in the Marine Corps. So from 2009 to late 2011, I got to be the commanding
general for, we have our mountain warfare training center up in Bridgeport, California. We have our
Marine Corps... The real main Marine Corps ground combat center out of 29 Palms [California]. Yuma
has our air station, Yuma Arizona. Miramar [Marine Corps Air Station, in San Diego], Camp Pendleton,
and the Air Station on Camp Pendleton. And Barstow [Marine Corps Logistics Base, Barstow California]
was the seventh one. So you're kind of the, you're kind of the governor is the way I equate it. And each
one of those is a city, or in case of Camp Pendleton, several cities in a county. And so they're, they have
their commanding officer, a colonel. And, so I'm basically the overseer for those to make sure they have
the resources to do their job. And fortunately for me, it was the beginning of the Obama era where the
Economic Recovery Act was, uh, they were looking for projects and the money was there.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
To fund a lot of things. And so new hospital at Camp Pendleton, well, I got that new chow hall, new
barracks, new childcare centers, all that kind of stuff. I was getting billions of dollars during my watch to
build that stuff.
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TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And so it was, uh, it was a good time. I've told these young Marines now that, well, it's not gonna be like
that for a while. That was during a war. And the funding was there. We had a happy Congress and they
weren't squabbling over money for the military, but as soon as the wars die down, money to the military
becomes scarce. Um, so, but, uh, so that was a good assignment. I would, I would say that it was, it was
a little bit different than my operational time as a general officer, but we had a lot of impact.
Visintainer:
So this is really interesting. And I think it's, it's kind of interesting how, maybe if I'm, if I'm understanding
you correctly, maybe it wouldn't have been your first choice.
Jackson:
Yeah. It wouldn't have been my first choice as a, yeah-Visintainer:
But in some ways it works out really nicely.
Jackson:
Yeah!
Visintainer:
To be around family-Jackson:
Because I get to be around family. I get to be-- I meet this university again.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
You know, I never, when I, when I left, when I left here in 1986, I mean, there was nothing here. This
was a stinky old chicken farm.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Uh, you know, and, uh, when I come back, your [university] president is Karen Haynes, right?
Visintainer:
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And her husband, gentleman Jim Mickelson is on the staff and doing what he's doing with ACE program,
ACE Scholars [Services, a program for foster youth at CSUSM]. And I'm the commanding general over
there. And I'm a guy with war credentials and all that kind of stuff. And, uh, and they invite me over
here. And, uh, and I'm just shocked that, you know, I'd driven by a couple times on 78 and seen the
building there. And, but she [Haynes] invited me to lunch and then her husband drove me around his
little golf cart, you know, to campus, and I'm in uniform. And, you know, California's weird. Southern
California, this uni-- our uniforms are really welcome. But Northern California is not the same place, you
know. Um, and, uh, and I, and so I, she took me over and showed me the nascent Veteran Center that it
was then, not what this is now. And it was kind of really a good experience and to meet Karen and see
her leadership, which I would compare with any general that I'd ever served with or-Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And I've served with some of the best this nation has to offer. And, uh, so, so, um... It's kind of
interesting that I could not develop the relationship at San Jose State. I tried to, I mean of course
distance was an enemy. Yeah. You know, but they kept changing leadership. Even now, I think they're in
search of another president. And that's five or six presidents in, in-- I visited the campus when I was on
active duty, a one-star. And giving presentations, this one doctor there, Dr. Jonathan Ross, he was really
interested. I funded a little books and furniture for their library. He had a military history library set up in
the history department. And so, and I was funding a scholarship and I wasn't get-- there was no
feedback. There was no feedback. Except for Jonathan. He would try, and he still sends me emails every
now and then, but the university was really like... But anyway, I wasn't gonna work when I retired at
first, you know?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Okay. I certainly wasn't gonna be a commuter to San Diego and the freeways just like trying to get here
today. I said, ah, I forgot there's construction. I should have went this way and that way and, uh, but,
um... But, I really hit it off with that, uh, with the leadership that was here, and I retired and I was sitting
around, enjoying trying to be a gardener, thinking about my next trip, doing this and that. And I turned
down several nice jobs, mainly for my wife because she didn't want me to work, and I was, you know,
sixty, about ready to get Social Security, max out Social Security, and then <laughs>, you know, so why
work? And Karen called and said, "Hey, how would you like to be on our foundation board?" And I said,
okay. Man. Was that? <makes gesture like casting a fishing rod> I mean, she hooked me for, she had me
set up. And I thought, hey, yeah. And I was on several boards, and so-- none of 'em paid. And, and I was
gonna stay that way. And I'd bought my RV [recreational vehicle]. That was my retirement gift to myself,
you know, nice. On that Mercedes chassis, looking good, driving down the freeway, camping out, fishing.
And we did enjoy it. We do still have that. So we still enjoy it. And, I got calls from the governor's office.
You know the boards were kind of pretty demanding anyway, and California State Parks was in a
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horrible position. They had money that they couldn't account for. It was mishandled. It wasn't stolen,
thank goodness. Nobody lined their pockets with it, but it was making the headlines and, and, and I
couldn't believe that Parks was so screwed up. <Jackson's phone rings>.
Visintainer:
If you want, I can pause this.
Jackson:
I'll just stop. No, this is.. It's amazing how these people get your number.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
My kids would text, my wife would text, you know, but these people will uh, are clever <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah. So that would've been around 2012 if I-Jackson:
Yeah. That was two thousand, yeah, twelve. Yeah. So, uh, and I'm just, I was in-- I was kind of amazed.
We have no idea what the civilian sector pays for jobs in the military. As a general officer, you're
basically working for nothing.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Because you've, you've maxed out the retirement scale, and because you can retire when you hit 30
years, you get 75% of your base pay. When you, in two and a half years, every year there after, so I was
at 36 and a half years, so you'd imagine that I'm 75%, two and a half years times, and so I was already at
95, 97%, something like that.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
So, you're, you are working because you love what you do.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
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Yeah. I mean, you're, you're, you're totally into what you're doing and it takes care of your family and all
that. So I really didn't want to work. There was one job that I might have taken, and that was when the
Chancellor for the UC system asked me if I would like to apply to be the President of CSU Maritime
Academy.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
Up in Vallejo. And that was in the spring, only two months after I had retired from the Marine Corps.
And it was just, it would've just been the wrong time.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
But our, but I did accept the Rockefeller Family Fund. I got to be known for some of the speeches that I
gave, rather, now that I've seen the video, <laughs> rather impassioned speeches about why we go to
war, to a group of engineers and scientists, in particular, this one speech. And I was still in uniform and
giving that speech, and I told them that, I just asked the audience of hundreds. I said, "Why is it that
we're at war in the Middle East?" And you could hear the word oil echo out. You know? And, uh, and,
uh, and I told 'em it was their responsibility to take us off of being dependent so we don't have to send
our men and women overseas to bleed, you know, and I didn't realize they were videoing the damn
thing. And it pops up all over the internet, right. <laughs> So, and my job as MCI West, I mean, this is the
military is a multi-billions of dollar industry in California. And as the commanding general of MCI West,
you had access to the governor and Governor [Arnold] Schwarzenegger when I first got there, Governor
[Jerry] Brown, later, you would meet with them once or twice a year. If there's any issues, like, you
know, there's a state park on Camp Pendleton, it's one of the most profitable parks in the state park
system. So this, it was good. They got the park for a $1 lease of several miles of beach, you know, and
that was gonna come up for negotiation in a couple of years. And Secretary of the Navy wants real
money for it now. It's not just a being a kind person anymore. It's, uh, so you have mutual interests and
the environmental California Clean Air Act and all this kind of stuff and whether or not we can meet our
tanks can meet your emission standards. No. So what's gonna be the offset? Things like that.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
So you're up there negotiating and trying to make them aware. And being a Californian, it also gave me a
little bit, um, adopted Californian anyway, it gave me a little bit different access because I was one of
them sort of. And so when I talked to a senator or to the member of the of the governor's cabinet, it
came out, uh, we had positive discussions. So they knew me in Sacramento. And they knew I had a
green side. And they knew that we were doing all of our green development on our bases. We were
doing a lot. It was funded by the Secretary of the Navy, Secretary [Ray] Mabus and President Obama.
And so, we were being really green. And so I was speaking the language of the Commander In Chief and
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the Secretary of the Navy, being really green, and as my war experience as well made me have pretty
much total buy-in. And my wife's Prius <laughs>. And the fact that she put in, I gave her $30,000 and put
in solar at our house.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
So, you know, all of those things, you know. And so I got a call from the, from the governor's office and
the Secretary of Natural Resources, if I would please consider being the director of California State
Parks. I said, "Oh, man, that sounds so good. I could do my job in my RV." And my wife, who's just a
natural member of, at that time of the Sierra Club and the California Native Plant Society and all that.
This, that's actually a job I'll consider. So I told her about it, and she said, "Well, if that's what you want
to do." Which is her logical, her normal answer too. And so I took that up, I mean, to get the millions of
dollars back in the right place. They had a morale problem. But they're kind of like military people in as
much as, uh, a bunch of really dedicated people that don't get paid much for their dedication. They work
for the state, the state doesn't realize, matter of fact, I'd say in some of the assignments that the park
rangers have, they live more austere than a military family would definitely live. And the state doesn't
recognize that, but they're-- If you're a ranger and you've got a series of parks in Carmel, Monterey, and
those beach parks and stuff like that, and the state can't pay you enough for housing and stuff, things
like that.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And some of the more remote places, it's amazing! Old ranch houses that they'll rehabilitate, you know,
and they learn to love what they're doing. You know, they, they, they do it because they love the great
outdoors. They love people, they love the animals and all of that stuff. And they hear they, "Hey, I want
to give you a pay raise, bring you to Sacramento and put you at my right hand." "Oh, no sir. <Visintainer
laughs> I want to be, I want to be right down here where I am. I don't want to be in Sacramento." Uh,
and they, they, they, there's a very different, uh, they're, they're much like Marines, but they don't have
an up or out sort of ethic or, or, or, or value system. Theirs is, "I'm here. Like, this is my park, these are
my parks, and this is where I want to raise my family, even if it's a twenty-five mile bus ride for my kids
to go to kindergarten." This is, this is in the, I loved them for that. Great people. And, and I think they
were, I don't want to talk too badly of my predecessor, but they needed the kind of leadership that's
taught and admired in the Marine Corps. So getting in my, I literally got my RV, we have a state park on-Border Fields State Park right there at the fence.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Separating Tijuana from us. And we have one all the way on the Oregon border. Arizona border. Nevada
border. And so I just, my wife and I, and I call the office in, um, and I tell my secretary, Lynn Black, I say,
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"Lynn, tomorrow I'm gonna be at Humboldt State Park. You can tell him now." Okay. But I didn't want
her to tell him, you know, a week in adva-- I didn't want him scrambling.
Visintainer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jackson:
You know, I know how it is in the military when you know the general's gonna show up. It might be two
weeks of scrubbing brass, you know, you know, if they got two weeks notice, they have two weeks of
panic. <Visintainer coughs>. If they, if they have twenty-four hours of notice, they only got twenty-four
hours of panic. And you can't fix much that's broken in 24 hours <laughs>. So that was great. I, I did
enjoy that. I did not want a new career though.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
You know, I told the governor I've got two or three years, and not only that, I had grown spoiled, as a
general officer to make critical decisions, life decisions. And you cannot do that. I mean, you're a
political appointee of the governor, right?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And you gotta be approved by, you know, two-thirds of the state senate. So you had to go through
those hearings and all that, so you could not be totally, you could be what the governor wanted. But
maybe not the governor's staff. The initiative was a little bit frightening. My initiative I think was a little
bit frightening in Sacramento, and I can't stand micromanagers.
Visintainer:
Yeah. How was it frightening?
Jackson:
Uh, say your question again?
Visintainer:
How was it frightening?
Jackson:
Um, who, my initiative? Because I might do something that, uh, that might be really good for parks,
really good for parks' people, but maybe it doesn't suit the governor's budget agenda. It might be too,
you know, and so you did not want, and you didn't want to be that guy that-- but you wanted to do the
right things, and you had to have people that would kind of support you in, in, in, in, uh, that you were
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trying to do the right thing. Now, they could argue, and you might not be able to do it, but I did not feel
that-- the military's incredible in terms of the responsibilities that I was given. And it was based on the
special trust and confidence that I had built up over, you know, thirty years of service. And that, I mean
that is, you're making really important decisions affecting people and maybe tens of thousands of
people. And so to come down from that, it was, was, was not ideal.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And you had to come down from that, uh, you know, uh, your ego. Something had to, had to, had to
back off. That you no longer had that much special trust and confi-- You had some trust and confidence.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
But you didn't have that ultimate special trust <laughs>, you know, because, you know. And, uh, and so
I, I, I, I decided that certainly I didn't wanna spend any more time in that environment than fixing what I
could fix. So got the budget money straight, got it all back, started fixing restrooms, started-- I, you
know, I took it like it was a military operation: to develop a campaign plan, publish it to everybody. To
everybody. Put it on the, on the website so every employee could read it.
Visintainer:
And at some point-Jackson:
I, you know, I set up a, it still goes, they dropped me off the mailing list. My wife is still on the mailing
list, but it's an email newsletter goes out every Friday. It's the same thing the Marine Corps does. I still
get 'em from the, from the... from the Chief of Naval Operations. And I get a daily report of what's
important. And then from the Marine Corps, every Friday I get one. You know, so that when I'm
communicating as a member of a community, I'm talking from some firsthand knowledge. Not all of it, I
don't, I'm not nothing secret, all open source stuff that we can communicate when we're out in our
communities. As a flag officer, you still have certain responsibilities.
Visintainer:
Sure.
Jackson:
That, uh, uh, so yeah. So the civilian world's a little bit different, you know, and it was kind of... I think
you have to, you have to adapt to it though, it's not gonna adapt to you. And so I, you know, after about
two years, I kind of said, okay, and things are relatively stable here, for you. And, I would, I'm gonna step
down and I was like I'm, I was just ready not to, and my wife one day, she goes, I was, I was commuting
back and forth.
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Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
So I would like fly home on Friday night and maybe Thursday night sometimes, and then I'd fly out
Sunday night back to Sacramento or early Monday morning. And, you know, and that-- one day she
looks at me and she says, "This is just like you're deployed." <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
You know <laughter>. So I knew it was about time to put in the hat. Those two things came together,
that deployment remark. And I was like, challenged whether or not I did, I wanted to give up the idea of
that special trust and confidence that I had grown so used to as a military officer.
Visintainer:
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
Jackson:
Mm-hmm. So.
Visintainer:
I had a couple questions about Camp Pendleton I wanted to ask you.
Jackson:
Sure.
Visintainer:
One was, I was, I was curious about the base's relationship with the surrounding North County
community and how that changed, how you've seen that change over time, if it has, maybe it hasn't?
Jackson:
Actually. Um, you know when Oceanside [California] was like shootouts at the O.K .Corral, not
shootouts, but get drunk, go to a strip club, that kind of thing. In the seventies, it was, it was pretty,
pretty harsh. And 'cause the Marine Corps was, it was, it was-- those were tough times for the Marine
Corps and the city and the development. You didn't have the growth boom that's occurred over the last
forty to fifty years for sure. But, I think it's really good relationship with the, with the uh, with the
community. With the colleges, community colleges. I think this is a great relationship that Cal State San
Marcos has with the military community in San Diego, writ large. And I think that Camp Pendleton... I
think, I think the region knows that like 65% of the Marine Corps' combat power is here <waves hand in
circular motion> and you can add on the Yuma Air Station with it, is here, this is the main war-fighting
engine, and you got similar but smaller in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina and forward deployed in
Okinawa, Japan. But they're smaller and they have different wartime commitments. This is the heavy
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punch. And these bases, both the airspace, the sea space and the ground space for training are
unmatched in the world. So you have the finest <waves hand in circular motion>, this geographic area,
just, just what God put here makes it that way, you know, and you can have every just about climatic
condition within MCI West, with the exception of a tropical jungle, you know. From the Sierras and our
cold weather arctic training to the desert, to mountains and all this kind of stuff, the beaches. And, I
mean, it's incredible training. And that's why Camp Pendleton, you know, was initially, what do they call
it when the city comes in and takes your property? They took Camp Pendleton-Visintainer:
Eminent domain?
Jackson:
Eminent domain. That's how it was. You know, here's $4 million, you're out of here. The O'Neill family,
and they're the ones that developed San Clemente and all that region up north of San Clemente, you
know, big developers, they're still here. The O'Neil family still, part of it's still here. But that eighteen
miles of coastline, the number of military and military families associated with it. That, and the Navy, I
think this is, we generate billions, like thirty-six billion dollars annually. And then in the state of
California, it's over fifty-six billion dollars. So-Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Just about one in every eleven or twelve defense dollars comes to California.
Visintainer:
Wow. <Jackson laughs>, that's significant <Jackson laughs>.
Jackson:
Yeah. I mean, you considered there's 50 states <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And they pay taxes too <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
So, um, I mean, Vista, the mayors, the, and the, and the San Clemente and, and Oceanside and San
Marcos, they show up at events. They're invitees. They're on the invitation list to events. <laughs> The
old mayor of Oceanside, he used to be quite a character, but he was kind of losing it a little bit, and he's
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a really nice guy and he's had some strokes and stuff like that, but he'd still show up, you know? To
things. And so I think that both from an economic development standpoint, and I think Camp Pendleton
also felt that during my time there, that we were really helping San Diego, San Diego County, and the
local communities with our investments that were given through the Economic Recovery Act. We were
employing the citizens out there. It's a, you know, it's a kind of a domino effect on money spent from
the military community here. So I think there's a really good relationship between the military. And I,
and I, and, and I appreciate it because I don't think every community in California, although I'm on the
governor's military council, and so I get to visit-- matter of fact, we have a meeting in another week or
two. I better look at my calendar up at Vandenberg Air Force Base. But we meet all over the state where
there's military communities, and we try to tie the, one of the things we try to do is tie the communities
with the military base around them, and a lot of, and the communities have embraced that to the
benefit of both. Because if you have a, um, a water problem or a waste management problem on your
base, well, that's part of the community's problem too, because you're probably locked into the system.
If you're trying to do renewable energies on the base, that's probably the community's issue too.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
If the schools aren't properly funded in the communities around the base, then you're, it's probably the
base people are gonna be concerned. The military families are gonna be concerned, and they're not
gonna want to go there if the schools aren't good schools. And so, I mean, we did a, around both Camp
Pendleton, the Fallbrook Union School, elementary school district, and around Edwards Air Force Base,
north of Los Angeles, they were both schools that are impacted by the military but weren't, were
slipping in terms of, oh, quality of education, quality of facilities, and getting instructors. And some of
these places are hardcore. And so the military worked with them to get matching funding in both of
those school districts to, to rebuild schools, to hire teachers and things like that, that affects quality of
life for military families as well as, you know, the community writ large. So it behooves the communities
to, uh, to be kind of tied in with the bases, and it behooves the bases to be tied in. And so the
commanders normally really recognize that and are accepted in the community. I have had one negative
experience. It was actually, I was at [employed at] state parks and I was asked to be the commencement
speaker at my high school in Oakland. It's kind of nice. I'm a retired general coming, and then I got a
phone call from them, saying the principal wanted to make sure that I would not wear my uniform to
the [ceremony]. Now I've been retired for, probably couldn't fit in my uniform and he should have
thought of that. "Don't wear your uniform," basically.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And I'm going, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, wait a minute." The high school principal's asking a guy who
spent thirty-six and a half years in this uniform, that he doesn't want him to wear it. Now, first of all, I
wouldn't have thought of wearing my uniform to, uh, you know, if it's a military event... No, I still
wouldn't have worn a uniform <laughs>. Get a new tuxedo. I mean, you're in ship, tip-shop shape when
you're in there. You know, you're <makes gesture indicating slim>, you know. I think I've grown a little
bit rotund since those days, right. <laughs> Gently so <laughter>. But, uh, and so that uniform is fitted to
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you, you know? And so I wouldn't have dreamed of it. But he, it was such an insult. I said, unless they
withdraw that I'm not gonna speak. And so I didn't speak at my high school. And that was after
retirement, and it was a totally unnecessary thing. But that's the difference. I mean, you'll run into that
at the, at northern, you know. You know, I remember days going to watch the students riot at Berkeley
and all that, but that.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
That was an attitude out of a principal in Oakland and my old alma mater. So, uh, and that's the only
negative that, but I thought that was uh, and I just told him, I said, "Well, I can't come." I said, because
it, it's like you're dishonoring-Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
You want me to deny I am a general.
Visintainer:
That's a huge part of your, your existence-Jackson:
When you, you know, as I remember Commandant General James Conway going, no matter what,
gentlemen-- all the generals in the Marine Corps get together once a year, and those who aren't forward
deployed anyway, and he says, "I don't want you all worrying about whether you're a one-star, two-star,
three-star, whatever. You're all just going to be generals and when they put it on your tombstone, that's
what everybody will remember." They don't remember if you're, whatever, general, general, Lieutenant
General.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And so I thought that was good advice for, you know, and, uh, yeah. But yeah, it's kind of an interesting,
well, let me show you one thing here. <laughs> I brought this because my wife told me to bring it, but
she's my smartest counselor. <Visintainer laughs>. She does these really cool, she doesn't do like family
albums, right?
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
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She tells the family story in this, in these, so you can-Visintainer:
Can I [inaudible]? <Visintainer moves camera to show album sitting in Jackson's lap>.
Jackson:
She does these drawings. Yeah. Yeah. So all the drawings you see in this, she does, there's an old oak
tree down by the Santa Margarita River and it's been chopped and it's been burned, and the top's been
blown off in high winds, but it's just resilient, you know? So she says, that's kind of the story of your
family-Visintainer:
Uh-huh.
Jackson:
Resilience, <laughs> you know, and so, uh... So you'll see these different drawings, and then she'll go
through and then she's found, it's kind of hard; we know that on my mother's side, this is my dad's, I
mean, you can see how thin [the family tree is], when you're descendants of slaves, you don't
necessarily get all the way back on the African descendants' side.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Very far. And this is my dad's little genealogical tree. And then this is my mother's. And what's
interesting is from my mother's side, and this is where my dad lied on his draft card and said his parents
were deceased <laughs>. And, so that's my dad as a like 16 year-old. I said, he looks like older than that,
and this is him at the Korean War, and this is kind of his story. And then when I said he is a boxer, now
this is my dad, when I was a senior in high school. Do you think I'd ever mess with my dad <laughter>?
Visintainer:
No you can definitely he was a, he was a prize fighter.
Jackson:
But he never lifted weights.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
And this is a newspaper article when he was-- about why he chose to stay [inaudible]. He was a rated
heavyweight fighter, but he chose to stick with the Army. And in this article there, they asked him why.
And he just said it was more secure. But I only saw him in person fight one time. And he knocked the guy
out with a, and this is his father and his mother. And yeah, that's my oldest sister and grandmother and
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my dad's sister. But there's, now it goes over to my mother's side, and this is my mother as a girl. And
this is all seven, there's very few pictures of all seven of my brothers and sisters. And this is like third
grade Tony right there with his finger in his mouth.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And this is <laughs>. And this is us in Oakland. This is in Texas. And this is all seven of the kids.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
Uh, my dad's funeral, I think that's what <laughs> got us back together. But my family goes back to the
original pioneers on my mother's side of, founding, they were with Brigham Young's party. And, um, and
this tells the story, and one of the three people were with Brigham Young that were slaves. And my
great-great-great grandfather [Green Flake] was a slave to, that was with that original Mormon party.
And so he becomes a founder. That's my great-grandmother. There's a couple of pictures in here that
are kind of neat. But Green Flake, that's him, was a slave.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
That came with the original. This tells the story of the original Mormon party that he was with. And he
was, he was a scout. And um, and he-- and um, a road builder. And he drove Brigham Young's wagon. So
when Brigham Young ends up in Salt Lake, the guy who he says, "This is the place," is my great-greatgreat grandfather, Green Flake. Now this is kind of a, this is my, this is Green Flake's daughter, my greatgreat-grandmother. This is my great-grandmother. This is that same great-grandmother with my
grandmother, with my mother, with my older sister. Now, the curious thing is: so far the oldest of each
generation is a woman, right?
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And then now down here, this is a picture with my grandmother, <points> her; my mother, her; my
sister, her right there; her daughter Lonnie, the first of that generation, and her daughter.
Visintainer:
Wow. <laughter>.
Jackson:
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So for seven consecutive generations, it's all girls.
Visintainer:
That's amazing.
Jackson:
And then finally she broke the mold. She now has a son, which is the first of that generation. And this is
another curious thing. This is my great-great grandfather, one of them. And he's Mexican. And he
changed his name to George Stevens.
Visintainer:
Okay.
Jackson:
<laughs> It doesn't show up much in my DNA, less than 1%. So my family has always had this knowledge.
And then my wife got really into it. And then, and Green Flake-- This is a statue of Brigham Young, which
is in downtown Salt Lake City, if you've ever been there.
Visintainer:
I've never been.
Jackson:
And in it, they list all of the original pioneers. And then down in a corner it has the three slaves, and
which includes my great-great-great grandfather, Green Flake, you know. And, um, so he becomes the
oldest living member of the original Mormon pioneers. Of the original ones. And so he's at the Jubilee,
the 50th anniversary, he gets invited back from his farm in Idaho to be an honored guest as the oldest
living.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
And so, and here this lady stands up, this is from the Salt Lake Union Tribune of 1903 or something like
that when he's there. And [the lady] asked him what it's like to be a slave. And so we actually have in
quotes from the Tribune what it was like. 'Cause he was born in 1828. So, so that was kind of curious.
And so where they did make a marker at a park, Pioneer Park. This marker was there, and somebody
tore it down years ago. And I took my sons to see it with my mother, and this is his tombstone, which is
kind of cool.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
And, uh, so somebody tore this down, and then, so this-- It was amazing, this summer, last summer past,
they finally-- that's my family reunion, right? This picture right here, that's my sister and aunt. They
finally built this thing. Look how small they look. Over a 10-foot statue of Green Flake now is in the, the
historic park, um, Heritage Park of Salt Lake City, Utah.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
He's got this oversized statue of Green is finally made the, besides the footnote. But anyway, that was
just in July I think they commemorated that statue. So that's part of what gives Jackson strength.
Visintainer:
Yes.
Jackson:
You know, is knowing that you have a, you know, a big history with this.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Are we over time?
Visintainer:
Uh, we-- we we're actually almost out of [camera] battery strength. <Jackson laughs> We've talked for a
while, so I think it's as good a place of any is to end the interview. I actually have so many more
questions for you, but-Jackson:
That's all right.
Visintainer:
We'll run out of, we're run out of battery so-Jackson:
That's okay. It was fun to talk.
Visintainer:
It is a real pleasure to have you-Jackson:
Be hoarse the rest of the day.
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Visintainer:
Yeah. <Jackson laughs> It's a pleasure to have you visit us and-Jackson:
Yeah, well thanks for inviting me to recall some good things and, you know.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
There were no real flashbacks, you know?
Visintainer:
Yep.
Jackson:
It can happen though. Every now and then, you know.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Oh man.
Visintainer:
Well, thank you again.
Jackson:
Okay. Hopefully that was-Visintainer:
I'm gonna go ahead and end the interview.
Transcribed by
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�
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Jackson, Anthony. Interview transcript. March 7, 2023.
Description
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Major General Anthony L. Jackson retired from the United States Marine Corps on January 1st, 2012, after more than thirty-six years of service. After retiring form the Marine Corps, he served as the Director, California State Parks and Recreation from November 2012 through June, 2014. Major General Jackson has also served as the Chairman of the California State University, San Marcos, Foundation Board of Directors.
In his interview, Jackson discusses his upbringing in a military family, including participating in a sit-in in a local drug store, and offers a comparison between his military service and that of his father, who served in the United States army. Jackson discusses life on military bases and support systems for deployed soldiers. Jackson recounts the courtship of his future wife, Sue, their early relationship, and the experience of being in an interracial relationship in the 1970s. Jackson discusses his later career with the Marines, including serving as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT, where he helped make the case for the military to purchase Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs) during the second Iraq war, and working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, AFRICOM. Jackson also discusses finishing his military career by returning to Camp Pendleton and other western U.S. bases as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West).
Jackson finishes his interview discussing his time working for California State Parks, his relationship with Cal State San Marcos, and his family lineage, which includes the enslaved wagon driver Green Flash, who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City.
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Anthony Jackson
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Sean Visintainer
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2023-03-07
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California State University San Marcos
Camp Pendleton (Calif.)
Civil rights demonstrations
Iraq War, 2003-2011
Military families
Mormon Church
Piracy -- Indian Ocean
Racism
United States. Africa Command.
United States. Marine Corps
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Houston (Tex.)
Indian Ocean
Iraq
Oakland (Calif.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
Stuttgart (Germany)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Anthony Jackson
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SC027-32
Activists and activism
Black experience
Community history
Veteran experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/68cc93b349d572359c4680f7c6576237.pdf
742db1a15707b29f357b16addcd6bf62
PDF Text
Text
ROBERTA ESTRADA
TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-11-03
Suzy Karasik: Good afternoon. Today is November 3rd, 2022. My name is Suzy Karasik and I
am interviewing Roberta Estrada as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Roberta
Estrada, thank you for joining me today.
Roberta Estrada: My pleasure.
Karasik: Great. So, I think probably the best part–the best place to start is a little bit of
background—where you were born—and let’s talk about what was your childhood, like when
you went to school, and how you identified yourself. So, I’ll give you plenty of time to go over
that.
Estrada: Well, I was born in–at Camp Pendleton at the old Marine Corps Hospital in 1945, and
I’m the oldest of three children. My parents met at Camp Pendleton because my dad is from the
Midwest, and we’re a very tight-knit family, and did a lot of things together. My mother i–wa–
well, she’s passed away, but my mother was French and Native American from San Luis Rey
area, and I am actually a—let me think now, what—third, fourth-born native of the area. So, I
went to school very, very short period of time in Oceanside where we lived at the time when I
started kindergarten. And my dad says, “No, that’s too close to Camp Pendleton. I’m out of the
Marine Corps now. So, we’re going to move.” So we moved to Vista (chuckles), long ways
away. So, I only attended there for two months. At the time there was no busing for kindergarten
children in Vista, so I didn’t go to school until I went into first grade. Went for two years in Vista
and my dad says, “Met a couple and they said ‘Oh no, you have to put your child in school in
San Marcos because the schools are smaller and we liked them.’” So, he says, “Okay, we’ll shift
you over there.” So, I came to San Marcos in the third grade, and was there until I finished eighth
grade, first graduating class out of what was then Alvin Dunn School, and then—now it’s
changed to La Mirada Academy. Then I went to—we didn’t have high school in San Marcos. So,
the kids that–the children that went to school in San Marcos and finished eighth grade were split
up between Escondido and a few of us went in to Vista, because we were on the border of Vista
and San Marcos. And, it was a much bigger school than San Marcos was when it was built, and
so my dad says, “We’ll get you in there.” Okay. So, my junior year of high school, I switched
back to San Marcos schools with all of the people that–children–all the friends that I had and
been raised with through school, and I finished high school the year that San Marcos became a
city in 1963.
Karasik: Very interesting.
Estrada: Yes, and it’s been—
Karasik: And how was your experience there, like, when you said you were happy to go back to
the school that you’d been with your friends in grade school? And were there other Native
American children there? And let’s talk a little bit about also your Mexican last name and how
you felt that might have been an advantage.
Estrada: Well, at that time, my last name was not Estrada. At that time, my last name was Guy,
very Anglo. So, in school, while I was in school in Vista, there were more of the local Hispanic
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�ROBERTA ESTRADA
TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-11-03
children, and I don’t think I even associated with Native American children being—or picked out
children as being—Native American at that time. All the way through school. I don’t believe I
ever did. And I don’t think that that even happened until after I finished high school and I did go
to college and majored in Spanish, and with a general education for elementary studies. But, I
don’t ever remember connecting to the Native Americans at that time. My husband, his family—
well, his fam–his immediate family was from Anaheim, but his father was from Pala. So, he was
the Native. But he had the Native American in him. And the only reason that he got the Native
American—the last name of Estrada was because that–his grandfather worked for people whose
name was Estrada, and if they went to get any kind of bank accounts or do anything in town,
they had to have a last name. They couldn’t just go by their Native American names. So, they
took the last name of what we call the dueños, and those are the people that had the–the owners
of the ranches and that’s where the Estrada name came from. But, um, my husband was the first
one to get in—no, actually my mother, because her mother was Native American, and her father
was also Native American. And s–their–my grandfather is from one of the prominent families in
Oceanside, the Foussat family. And he is one of three brothers. So, he had a truck farm and we
all learned how to help out on the truck farm. And that’s when I met a lot of the other Natives, I
guess you would say, or—well, actually there weren’t a lot of Natives. There were more
Hispanics than there were Natives that, uh, were in that area.
Karasik: And back in that time, those years, did they k–refer to people as Natives or as Indians.
Estrada: As Indians and if you talked to my father-in-law who was half-blood, he said that they
could not claim being Indian or Native American and–or they would be put on—just like on the
opposite side of the room at the end of the line or whatever. They had to claim–they ha–the
Hispanic background, the Mexican background, in order to be eligible for a lot of things. And—
Karasik: So, this was talked about at home, and you were prepared to know how to best present
yourself when you were in school or those situations.
Estrada: I would say not until I probably was late high school.
Karasik: Mm-hmm. But it was talked about at home.
Estrada: A little bit. Well, be–the first thing that happened was that my father didn’t speak any—
well, my mother spoke Spanish and that–because that was–they didn’t use a lot of the Native
language at the time, and my father didn’t. So, it was, “Speak to the children in English. They
need to learn in English.” And they were married in the Catholic church, but my father had to—
and in San Luis Rey Mission, in fact—but my father had to sign papers to say that my mother
was to be allowed to raise the children as she was raised. So, because he was from the Midwest,
and—
Karasik: She would be allowed—
Estrada: She would be allowed— (nodding)
Karasik: —to raise the children.
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TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW
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Estrada: Yes. She would be.
Karasik: And this was the San Luis Rey Mission—
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: —Band.
Estrada: They were—well, yes. They were married in–at the San Luis Rey Mission in 1944, and
that’s when–shortly after I was–I was probably about late high school when I–when my mother
was getting more involved with the Native American group. She was more into helping others
than–than trying to–to say “You’re–you’re Native American, Roberta. You need to think about
this. You need to do this. You need to do that.” She never really pointed that out to us. I have a
younger sister and a younger brother, and the three of us have become pretty involved with the
tribe now, of which I am part of the Tribal Council. My husband was part of the Tribal Council
first, but when he could not do it any longer, then I was helping him by sitting by his side to start
with. And then–and then I became part of the Tribal Council itself, aft–no, before he passed
away.
Karasik: I’m curious there. It sounds like, because you became part of the Tribal Council, and
you are now, are women more respected and it’s a matriarchal kind of a society? And how did
that feel for you, looking at other cultures where women weren’t perhaps quite as—
Estrada: Yes. There is more, um,—When you—If you look at our Tribal Council, I think it is a
majority of women. I never even thought about it that way. But yes. And the other thing is that I
would say that there were times when I would say, “Why don’t they let her speak. Why don’t–
Why does he have to talk for her?” You know, when I would meet other families. And I, when I
came—I went away to college, came back, and taught school here in San Marcos. And, um, the
first class I taught was a kindergarten class and they were hiring–I was hired as a bilingual
teacher, because I did have a Spanish major. And I can remember parents bringing their children
in and not being allowed. The–the mother usually was not allowed to speak for the–for–for them.
Or she would speak for the child, but if I asked a question, the mother would always turn and
look to see if it was okay to answer or not.
Karasik: And what year was this?
Estrada: 1976. When I changed my name. Well, actually I came back in ’70—let’s see, ’68.
Karasik: Right.
Estrada: I came back in ’68. I–What I had intended in–When I went to college, I went to college
at a–what was called a county Normal School in the state of Wisconsin, because that was where
my dad was from. I moved there. I lived with family so that I didn’t have to pay the extra in–
tuition for anything. And when I came—and that was an experience in itself, because the— I
mean, my first teaching classes, my student teaching classes, were in one-room schools where
they had everybody. The first room was just kindergarten through fourth grade, and the teacher I
was teaching under was actually the principal of the school too. The second session was
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TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW
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(chuckles) an eighth grade and that was even more interesting because that eighth grade had
these kids that were much bigger than I was at the time. And, I mean, ‘cuz it was only two years
after I had finished high school. And, uh, then when I–I said, “You know. I like Wisconsin. I like
the changes in the weather and the foliage and all of that. It was just really nice. But I’m a
California girl.” I came back. I went to school when they were first building Cal State San
Bernardino. And I finished off my—Well, first when I came back, I had to get the basics from
Palomar because we skipped right to the last two years of school. And now I had to go back and
get my beginning language, my beginning math, my beginning sciences that the colleges require.
Then I went to—When I finished at Palomar, I went to Cal State San Bernardino for two years
and got my Life Credential for teaching, which is a no more existing thing now, anyhow. I don’t
have to go back to take classes in order to teach. I could—I’ve been retired for thirteen plus years
now. But I could go in and apply and still be eligible to get a job now if I wanted to, which I
don’t because I’m too involved with too many other things.
Karasik: Great. Um, yeah, I’m aware of that. They do not offer the Lifetime anymore. So, what
was it like when you said, “I’m a California girl, and I want to come back.” It sounds like a lot of
things had changed within you as well. And I thought it was really interesting the way that you
noticed how the women didn’t feel as comfortable–comfortable to speak. But what kind of
changes did you see when you came back to the area, and—not even so much what did you see,
but how did it feel for you? Obviously, you were thrilled to be back. But what–what did you kind
of notice then and how did that shape the way that you carried on with your life?
Estrada: Well, I think that I noticed at that time, probably into my maybe second or third year
here, that the parents, the mothers were becoming more involved in what was going on. And they
were more interested in how to help their children at the time. And that was a–a plus. I had a lot
of connections to people that I could call on in the city also that helped out. I mean, yes, we had–
I had friends that would bring their sheep in to show what happened to the sheep when they
sheared it. And one of the boys that graduated from high school with me ended up to be the fire
captain and I would call them and they would come out and do demonstrations during the–that.
So, it just–and parents just really wanted to be a part of what was going on. And I think the
moms became more involved because dads had to be working.
Karasik: Right. And so was that part of the curriculum or was it–were you more free then to say
“Hey, I think it would be a good idea for these children to see these kinds of living situations.”
Estrada: It was integrated into the curriculum. Yes. I’m going to say it that way. Because I could
make a lesson—and I’m not bragging—but I could make a lesson out of, you know, a Hershey’s
candy bar and teaching fractions. But it was something that you just made the children feel like
they were part of your school community then. Other than that, they didn’t, you know—you go
to school, you sit at a desk, you see, you pay attention to what the te—You’re here to learn is
what they were taught. And I have to admit that was one of the things that the parents really
instilled in them. But we would integrate a lot of the—
Karasik: Life skills.
Estrada: —skills. Life skills. And we—
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TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW
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Karasik: Yes.
Estrada: We made ice cream, so they’d learn how to measure. And we would—we celebrated all
the cultures. You couldn’t celebrate Christmas as Christmas. This was an interesting one. So I
incorporated all the different countries that I could think of and incorporated it into finding out
about different cultures and their traditions at that time. So that was how I helped.
Karasik: And there wasn’t a problem with that?
Estrada: Not as long as I did that. I was—
Karasik: That you knew of.
Estrada: There were—I was observed just like every other teacher had to be observed. I was
observed a lot, and everything—I never had any problems with—and we had to turn in lesson
plans on it. You know, it was just like “you want me to tell you exactly what I’m going to be
doing in every single minute?” “Yes, we do.” “Okay. So, I’ll write down general ones and you
can come in and look any time you want.” (laughs)
Karasik: Right. Well, it sounds like, uh, it was definitely an–a–a–a plus or an advantage for you
to have been from the area, having gone to another area to kind of gain that knowledge including
your school. But that experience. And so would you say that it was definitely a benefit for you to
feel like more imbedded in the community and you had all those—
Estrada: Oh, yes.
Karasik: —connections and that made your life a lot more.
Estrada: And because I taught for thirty-two years, I actually ended up teaching children of
classmates that I had in school. Because a lot a—at that time they weren’t moving out of California.
I mean, they weren’t moving out of San Marcos (laughs) as far as that goes. A lot of people stayed.
Karasik: And people weren’t moving in as much, as well, as they are now.
Estrada: We did–yeah. The–in my later years in teaching, then we had the–the children from
Vietnam, the chil—you know, that–the immigrants from there. So—
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Estrada: During that Vietnam time.
Karasik: And I would assume that you integrate that—integrated them into the class. Or how did
you handle some of that?
Estrada: (laughs) You’re going to laugh, but I would speak Spanish to them. And I forget–I forget
that wasn’t their second lan–their first language. And I would—but I—uh, there’s just one little–
one little Vietnamese girl that sticks out in my mind so vividly is because she did not speak English
when she started. So, we ran the—well, we were already using an ESL program because of going
in to—well, having mostly Spanish children in the classroom at the time. And then, um, she made
such a tremendous advance. By the time she graduated from high school, she was Valedictorian.
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TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-11-03
Karasik: Oh, isn’t that great!
Estrada: Yeah. So, in her–in her twelve years, you know, she was, um–she just moved right up the
ladder. But it didn’t hurt her at all that we were speaking to her in Spanish. She picked up some!
(laughs)
Karasik: At a young age, yes.
Estrada: Uh-huh.
Karasik: It’s a lot easier. Well, I’d kind of like to move on to—I mean there’s—we could talk
about how your work has changed since then. But I do happen to know that you’re a–a basket
weaver. I don’t know if it’s a—if there’s certain levels or if you’re a professional.
Estrada: I’m a beginner!
Karasik: Oh, you are? But you’re very involved with the community and so maybe you could tell
us, then. You were probably noticing changes, because certainly after the war and then after the
Vietnam War, you know, society was changing considerably.
Estrada: Oh, yes!
Karasik: But when did you—like with the basket weaving and some of that, has that just been later
in your retirement years or was it in—and you were raising children?
Estrada: I have two sons, yes. I have two sons that are—I don’t even know—they’re 43 and 40, I
think, right now. Forty—no, they’re 41 and 44. One’s going to be 44 next week. And I have to say
that I didn’t really become involved in–as much with the tribe until after I retired. So, it’s been in
the last thirteen plus years, only because I didn’t feel like I had enough time. I–I know you were a
teacher also. But I–And I know that that just took up so much of my time, and my husband used
to tell me, “Aren’t you done—Aren’t you off your job clock yet?” Or something like that would
always be the remark. Now, he passed away three years ago, and I think that’s when I’ve really
become more involved in the basket weaving, only because I felt like I needed to have something
more that occupied me than sitting and thinking about what was going on. But, my cousin Diania
Caudell says, “Come with me. You’re not working today. Come with me. I’m going to do a
presentation at a school,” or “Come and help me.” That’s how it started. And, when we teach in
the schools, we do a different style of basket only because it’s a little bit easier and we don’t use
traditional plants at that time, because you don’t know if they’ve had any insecticide in them. You
don’t know if they—you know, how safe or they’re going to have a reaction. And that’s the last
thing you want if you go into a cla–into a group of 50 kids and have to do a–a–a basket and have
somebody breaking out with a rash all over them. But so we went to cane products and we do a
basic weave, and we make the starts for them. So, that’s what I’ve been doing now. Because we’re
doing it in another couple of weeks. We have a couple of groups going on. And then, they just
finish the basket. And that has been going with kids from, oh, Montessori aged schools—I mean,
Montessori–for preschools all the way through to like eighth grade, and then some—Well, we’ve
done it with the Cal State San Marcos and San Diego State also, um, college kids. Because they
were in their Native American classes and their Native Studies classes, and we did baskets with
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TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-11-03
them. And they would come and visit what we call Indian Rock in Vista. And it’s a puberty rock
for girls, puberty stage. And so, um, they would come up and the–the schools have been–wa–Cal
State San Marcos was involved in putting native plants there. And so, we worked very closely with
them. I have a cousin now who was a professor at San Diego State, so we’ve become involved
with some of her classes too. We also have—we do demonstrations that we call demonstrations
where we use the native plants and do the native weave which is a little bit different and a little bit
more complex because you have to use the awl in order to get the thread through. And so, we use
the–the juncus and the–and the deer grass, and we’re going to be doing that tomorrow! At a school
in San Luis Rey.
Karasik: Oh, there’s so much there. One thing—when you said “cane,” I–I’m–I’m thinking sugar
cane.
Estrada: Oh, no. It’s—
Karasik: Wha—
Estrada: —it’s the in–inside part of bamboo.
Karasik: Of bamboo! Okay.
Estrada: Yeah. They take it out and they compress it. And so, then it—and it–it comes—
Karasik: Now, who’s they. Do you get it—?
Estrada: It’s from—we get it from a company in–in–in Huntington Beach.
Karasik: So, it is processed.
Estrada: It’s processed.
Karasik: And they grow those there like they have maybe a ware–a greenhouse of—
Estrada: He gets it into a warehouse. We get it from a guy in a warehouse up there.
Karasik: Uh-huh.
Estrada: Only because, um, it’s just safer—
Karasik: It’s trusted.
Estrada: —to use with it—
Karasik: —a trusted source, yeah.
Estrada: I should have brought it inside because I—
Karasik: I—yeah.
Estrada: I had some outside because I had to bring some for Diania! (laughs)
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Karasik: Oh yeah? And so, the other thing that I think is really interesting when you said “Puberty
Rock.” So is this something that was passed down for generations, and do you think that our an—
your ancestors, I mean the—
Estrada: I’m sure that there were ancestors that went there and you—there’s markings. It’s on
Indian Rock Road in Vista, off of Indian Rock. But it has markings and signs, handprints. But then
of course, in the modern day, it’s been vandalized and so we’ve worked a lot with different
companies and different schools and different technicians in order to find out how to remove a lot
of that, because you can’t just go up there and paint over it like they do on the curbs and the houses
and the sides of the walls, now. So, it has–(chuckles) it has poison oak around it, on purpose—
(laughs)
Karasik: Oh!
Estrada: —now, so that you can’t go near it. But it was–the—Moro Hill near Camp Pendleton is
part of our creation story. And it was from there a short distance to this Indian Rock and that’s
where girls would go and do their handprints, or do a s–sign that, you know, a—
Karasik: Like a coming-of-age ceremony.
Estrada: It’s much different than the boys. The boys go through a much rougher one. I mean, ants,
and I don’t know what else. But the girls did, but—
Karasik: Did you participate?
Estrada: I did not participate in that. And I was trying to get that information out of my mom. She
reset—she told me that she remembered doing something, but then that’s it, you know. I never
really—before she passed away—never really found out what the “it” was or the “something” was.
Karasik: Right.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: And that’s―is there some sadness around that, or just wishing that you―
Estrada: Oh, I―definitely now, because I’m learning so much more about the Native culture and
the tribe itself, the intertwining of the families, the knowing that I have cousins beyond cousins,
this kind of thing, and trying to have somebody right here (taps her right shoulder) on my little
shoulder sometimes that would say, “Oh, that’s the daughter of your aunt blah-blah-blah. Or
your cousin blah,” and just trying to make sure that I knew. And she guided along that, because
she was the–considered the elder in the tribe, when she passed away. And that’s been four years,
a little bit over four years now. But, attended everything, and so that’s when I would learn more.
I’d say, “I’ve seen them before, mom, but I don’t really remember.” She says, “Well, when we
were at your uncle’s house in the valley, that part of his family―” And I thought, okay. Those
were the kinds of things that―
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Karasik: When you say, “I’ve seen them,” you’re talking about some of the people that were in
your family.
Estrada: You would―either the family or people that would be associated with the family. I
mean, I was at a Dia de Los Muertos last weekend in Fallbrook, and I thought, “Gee, a lot of
these people (turning her head from side to side) I recognize.” And I would stop to think, and I’d
have to either go up and ask them, “Have I met you before?” (laughs) Or something like that. So
that I would be able to make a connection.
Karasik: Mmm.
Estrada: And some of them I actually had met before.
Karasik: Great. So, was there any, um, ritual that was done in the home, or anything that your
parents ever talked about (Estrada shakes her head to indicate no) that was kind of handed down
from the ancestors. Because I know there was certainly a time―like you said, sometimes it was
more advantageous to be Latin or―
Estrada: Mexican.
Karasik: ―Mexican. Did you feel like, oh I would–I would love to have known more of the
rituals or some of the ceremonies.
Estrada: I’m just learning a lot about that now. As a family, we did not practice a lot of that. But
then―I say we didn’t practice a lot of that. What I really feel like, maybe in a roundabout way,
we did, because we always had large family gatherings. Now, in our tribe, we’ve had a powwow
the second weekend of June every year until Covid hit. But it, um,―prior to that, it was―we
would be gathering at a–a park, at a water place. I mean we were up at some creek up in
Pamu―the Pauma area. Just places where―and it would be huge family gatherings, and, um,
because there were eleven in my mom’s family, and then their kids and down through that, so―
And then, besides the other brothers. One brother–one of my grandfather’s brother—had all
daughters. I think there’s eleven or twelve of those. And then the other brother had six or seven.
So that they―it–you know, so you just kind of (makes pulling apart gesture with her hands)―and
then when you get these families all together― (makes pushing together gesture with her fists)
My grand–my paren–my grandfather’s fa–family lived in Oceanside. And so, he was kind of the
in-between the San Luis Rey brother and the Cardiff brother. So, it made a―The people in my
mother’s family―I felt like she was a–a mediator or the in-between person to get to know this
brother’s kids with this brother’s kids (gestures pulling from the left and the right into the
center). And that’s kind of what I’m doing now.
Karasik: Interesting.
Estrada: Following in the footsteps, I guess you’d say.
Karasik: Of your mother. How–what a beautiful way to honor her.
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Estrada: Well, and on top of that, I have my husband’s family, who is from Pala and San Jacinto
area, and trying to get them to know the rest of this family. So, you know, it’s always “I’m going
to call Roberta, because she’ll know.” Well, if Roberta doesn’t know, she tries to figure it out
and find out who it is, you know, make a connection.
Karasik: Right. So, I wanted to―I guess I would use the word “pride.” Was―because the–the
times have changed now, di–but, when you were younger or compared to now, was the certain
pride about being Native American? And then there were times where that was not talked about,
like where you said it was easier to say I’m Mexican.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: And, um, whe–where is that now, and h–how has that changed over the years? And do
you feel much more–more pride and feel that it’s more important? Or―
Estrada: I think it’s very important, because there are seven Luseño tribes in the area. And San
Luis Rey is the only unrecognized tribe. We are still trying to get the recognition process done.
But I think we’re working at it together. We may not be federally recognized, but we are
recognized by the people and the cities in the area. Last night, we went for a proclamation from
the city of Oceanside. And, um, I think there were ten or twelve of us there last night, at the City
Council meeting. And, um, it just made me feel like, “Oh! This is getting good.” Because now
they’re becoming more involved. For a while, it’s always the same group. And that group is
getting up there in years. And we need to pass it along. And we’re trying to―right now, I’m
working with a younger cousin who has, um, aspirations to involve the younger people, the
thirty-and-unders people, to get in–more involved. And so, we’re working together and getting
those―I couldn’t believe the amount of people that were there that were in that age group. And
then at the―We went–After that, we went to the Inyan–Indian monument that’s in San Luis Rey
Mission cemetery, in the old cemetery part. There’s an Indian monument, and we had quite a
large group there, that we put candles out and all the great-grandmothers and uncles and aunts,
and so forth, around there. It was very, very touching moment, to feel–to feel that so many of
these people―And then, at the end they were even saying, “Well, we’d like to know more about
this. Or maybe learn about that.” Because there was a period of time when―I know my boys―
Karasik: I wanted to ask you about your boys, if they’ve claimed their culture.
Estrada: My boys did not know a lot about the Native Americans to start with.
Karasik: Those two pages in the history book weren’t enough in eighth grade? (chuckles)
Estrada: No. And it–they were not. And now they’re, um―they don’t live in the area. They both
live in Arizona now. But they’re―because of their work, and they will ask questions, though.
And they will want, say, “Oh, are we going to do that this year? Oh, I think I’ll come for
powwow. Are we going to have it?” “Mom, I don’t think I’m quite sure on what to do with this.”
But they both learned how to make their frybread. (chuckles)
Karasik: Yes.
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Estrada: That’s something that was stuck with them, and that was there. So―
Karasik: Yeah. I think it’s really interesting how throughout the decades, if you will, it’s been
sort of not in fashion―
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: ―to look at your culture. Now, it’s very much in fashion.
Estrada: Land acknowledgment, right now, is one of the big things. And so, you’ll hear that
when you go to different, um, occasions, or different presentations. They’ll say, “We want to
acknowledge that we are on Native land.” We want to―
Karasik: Absolutely.
Estrada: ―you know. That’s more going on now, and you see that in their speeches. Whereas you
didn’t see that before.
Karasik: Absolutely. I–I find that in–in, just when I’m on a Zoom―in fact, my name―and then I
put what city I’m in, and then I put what stolen lands that I occupy. Be―
Estrada: Mm-hmm. Right now, we’re on (gestures quotes with her fingers)
Karasik: Kume―
Estrada: ―Native land. We’re on Ku―we’re―well, yes. We’re not on Kumeyaay land. We’re
on―we’re in between, now. It’s between the Luseño and the Kumeyaay area.
Karasik: And so, Luseño is sort of the umbrella of the six or seven tribes―
Estrada: Seven tribes.
Karasik: ―that you were talking about. And the recognition―are there certain aspects of it from
the government or from the tr–tribe itself?
Estrada: Government.
Karasik: From the government.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: So, the tribes, for sure, recognize you, but it’s some kind of a governmental
requirements to―
Estrada: Yeah. There’s a lot of r–there’s a lot of red tape, you may as well say―
Karasik: Right, right.
Estrada: ―that you have to jump through.
Karasik: And–and is―
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Estrada: You have to have proof of being a government from a–for a period of time. And so,
that’s one of the things.
Karasik: Of being like a sovereign―
Estrada: Mm-hmm.
Karasik: ―nation or–or―
Estrada: Yeah.
Karasik: You know.
Estrada: Where you have a―where you do things then. So, you’ll find if they’re doing any
activities, you’ll find people that are recording that, so they’ll have a recording of what’s going
on now. And―
Karasik: Documentation―
Estrada: ―documentation of all of that.
Karasik: ―every―Right.
Estrada: Going back to when we were talking about the basket weaving, we do a lot of things
with the–the schools now. And so then, before we start with that, we tell them where we’re from.
Yes, we know that this part―now, like when we went to do it at San Diego State. Yes, we are on
Kumeyaay land right now. We were invited to do this. And what we use for the schools is a
Cherokee style. And so, we were given permission from Tekua, so that it was–would be
available. Giving―I don’t want to say permission―I want to say you recognize where
everything came from. You don’t say it’s yours if it’s not yours.
Karasik: So, there’s a respect for the origin of it, and then there’s also a–a, like you said, a
recognition or a–um, yeah. I–I’m–I’m thinking of so many things. I–You said “tekua.” Is that
some organization, or what―
Estrada: It’s the Cherokee, Cherokee band.
Karasik: Oh! Okay. And who’s that umbrella?
Estrada: Cherokee.
Karasik: Ok. And then Tekua is underneath―
Estrada: Yeah. They’re part of the Cherokee.
Karasik: ―that. And then are they a little bit more going east, like to Arizona? Or are they―
Estrada: No. They’re, um, more, um, Oklahoma area.
Karasik: Oh, right. Okay.
Estrada: In that area.
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Karasik: Okay. Um, oh, there’s just so much there. And you’ve really been wonderful to kind of
branch into some of the questions that I wanted to ask you. Um, I think I–I want you to tell me
how you feel about doing this oral history, and how important it is. What–what are–what kinds
of things do you want our descendants to know, and how important will that be for–for them, and
that’s why we’re doing this oral history. And then, maybe you can add in there some of your
accomplishments, if there’s any regrets that you might have had, um, and kind of how your life
path has changed, I think more since your retirement, and how that feels for you to, um, be more
involved and have that pride and want to really pass that on and tell this story.
Estrada: Well, it’s interesting, because I do have two twenty-year-old grandchildren, a sixteenyear-old, and a six-year-old, and trying to make them understand their heritage at the same time.
And so, yes, I’m doing that with them, but I hope that other people are letting their children
know about their culture and heritage, no matter what culture and heritage it is. And, um, having
the pride, not hiding yourself. And it’s important to know that one of the things that—I mean,
San Marcos―I have to say. I don’t live in San Marcos. I lived in San Marcos at one time. I did
after I was married. Also, I lived there for a short time before we moved into Escondido and then
Vista. So, we’ve lived in North County. But it’s always had a place in my heart. And the people
are just so interested in what everybody else is doing. I grew up in this area being friends with
people from the egg ranch—Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch—and just having, you know, and like all
those race horses over here on the other side, and then the farmers on the other side. So, it was a
big diverse. And I need to have my boys tell their kids that there’s more to it than Minecraft on
the computer.
Karasik: Uh, absolutely.
Estrada: And so―
Karasik: So, when you said egg ranch, it was like, “oh, there’s probably a whole story there.” So,
some of those, the egg ranch and the others that you will mention, they’re still here. So that’s―
Estrada: (shakes her head).
Karasik: Oh, they’re not. Oh.
Estrada: C.S.U. S.M. was–is built―
Karasik: On―
Estrada: ―on the egg ranch, on Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch.
Karasik: Oh! On all those lands. How was that?
Estrada: It was hard at first.
Karasik: Were there burial grounds there as well―
Estrada: Um, probably.
Karasik: ―that we know of?
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Estrada: No. Probably, probably. In the extension that they were building at San Marcos High
School, they’re–in where they’re working, where the construction is now, there will be a lot of
orange fencing. In the Creek Project in San Marcos, too, there’s a lot of orange fencing, because
that’s all—the Natives lived along the water source, and I know that my mom’s aunts worked
and–and my mom—I don’t think my mom’s mother did but—my mom’s aunts were in a lot of
those camps, cooking for the people that were, you know, working on, or living in these areas, or
working in these areas.
Karasik: Yeah. I’m curious there, because I–I know back, you know, pre-modern technology,
they often moved because first they respected the land. And there were different growing periods
and animals. There are all kinds of reasons that they would move. And so, that would be then
sometimes how the women might go there and then support that, or―
Estrada: Ours went–Our tribe went from the ocean to the mountains, because they would go up
in the mountains and collect the acorns and so forth. But my grandfather’s father was a sheep
herder.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Estrada: And he would–would go up in that area. His―My grandmother’s brothers were miners
and helped at the mining area in the Pala area. So, you know there was this way, and this way.
San Luis Rey Mission is built on our Indian village site. The, um―they were given the
opportunity to move up to the mountains or just spread (indicates spreading out in groups with
her hands) and diverse themselves, and that’s what they did. A lot of them went into the farming
and into construction and things like that.
Karasik: So, you heard about your mother’s mother and father, or your–even like your husband’s
parents and grandparents. Those were just stories that were kind of passed down. Do you feel―
Estrada: It’s all oral story.
Karasik: Yeah. And–and so that oral history, you―
Estrada: Is important.
Karasik: ―Absolutely.
Estrada: It’s not all recorded, except (points to her head) up here now.
Karasik: And that’s a lot why we’re doing it here.
Estrada: That’s a big reason why I’m very into what’s going on right now. Yes.
Karasik: And I think you’ve done a fantastic job.
Estrada: Oh.
Karasik: We could go on and on. I also think it’s ironic that, um, Cal State San Marcos, who’s
doing this project, is on that land.
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Estrada: Mm-hmm.
Karasik: So, in a way, it is–they are giving back.
Estrada: They’re sharing.
Karasik: Which is–is really good.
Estrada: The best part of this whole thing is this “site” (gestures air quotes) that we’re in today
was actually on the elementary school that I went to. It was our cafeteria.
Karasik: This specific building?
Estrada: This specific building. It was our cafeteria, and we had our (gestures quotes with her
hands) “dances” inside this building. We did our choir from the stage.
Karasik: This stage?
Estrada: This stage. The only thing that’s different about it now is there used to be a kitchen
connected. Because when we were in maybe fourth grade up, you could be a–you could be a
cafeteria helper.
Karasik: Sure.
Estrada: And, um, you’d help serve at the lunch line, and I did that. But it―
Karasik: It’s interesting. When you said “dancing.” So, it was okay to dance. And that dancing,
was it more like “American culture?” Or was―
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: It was.
Estrada: Yes. It had nothing to do–do (shaking her head) with the Natives at all.
Karasik: Okay.
Estrada: Mm-hmm.
Karasik: Yeah. Um, I could talk about that, but this is your story.
Estrada: (laughs)
Karasik: Um, so, I’m thinking there’s not very many regrets. It sounds like you’ve really had a
wonderful life.
Estrada: I think after my retirement, um, I became more involved and then it made me feel even
more proud of my heritage.
Karasik: Yes.
Estrada: And then the–on top of that, um, I made a lot of connections to different family
members and my husband’s family, and trying to get that all focused on, so that I could
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intermingle that so I could pass that on to my boys who could pass it on to their children. And I
really feel that by doing things like this and coming out and talking about it―I know that when I
first started, Diania would say, “Let’s go.” Okay. I’d go and I’d stand in the background. Well, I
listened a lot. Well, that’s how I learned my Spanish in the first place, because my grandfather
sold to―he sold the rabbits and the guy that came to pick up the rabbits couldn’t speak English
and he would speak Spanish to him. And here would be Roberta by his side. So, I mean, he was
one of the influential people, I’m learning, that second language that was so important in this
area. But, um, now I’m interested in trying to pick up the Luseño language, the Chamteela. I
can’t even say it. Because we’re called the Payómkawichum, which are the people of the west.
And so, it goes all along the western coast and in–into the mountain.
Karasik: And is there anyone still around―
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: ―to teach some of that?
Estrada: Yes. I have to take my time and go to those classes.
Karasik: So―
Estrada: Right now, they’re just starting some Zoom classes for―they called it for the young
people. But there’s a lot of people that want to learn it beyond that. So, we’ll see what happens.
But they’re doing them on Zoom right now.
Karasik: You―
Estrada: Because you need to hear it.
Karasik: I’m sure, yes.
Estrada: You need to hear it. You can’t do it from the book―
Karasik: You have to―
Estrada: ―and read it. And, um, I’ve got several little kid’s books that I’ve gotten from my
grandkids that have the English on one side and the Luseño language on the other side and yes,
you can do it that way, but you still don’t hear the correct pronunciation.
Karasik: Yeah. That’s really important. The–it’s–I’m feeling like in some ways it’s full circle.
You know. It’s coming back full circle, and now a–a–the pride is really more known amongst―
Estrada: I think it’s more evident now and you can feel it.
Karasik: And even outside of your culture.
Estrada: Yeah, you can see it coming back. Because looking out at the people that were sitting at
the City Hall last night, and them paying attention to what was being said about our culture,
about ourselves, by the captain at the time. Mel was talking and you just look out at the people
and you could see them really into what was being said about what was going on there, so―
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Karasik: That must feel wonderful.
Estrada: Yeah. And so, I mean, it makes you feel. I told them that. I told somebody else, after the
Dia de Los Muertos thing last night. I just go, “You know, I really feel very proud to be part of
this group.” And it ma–it makes you feel like―
Karasik: Right.
Estrada: ―you’re doing something good.
Karasik: Absolutely. I’m so happy for you.
Estrada: (chuckles)
Karasik: And so, I guess, um, in closing, obviously if there’s anything else that you’d really like
to say, but I feel like we’ve had a–a really wonderful conversation. And I hope you do as well.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: But if you―you know, there’s a lot of work done now too, around, beyond the veil.
Like people have passed and sometimes people want to get in touch with them, or wish that they
could have, you know, tell―
Estrada: Conversations.
Karasik: Right! And so, if you had that―if some of our–your descendants had the opportunity to
talk with you, which is a lot of what this will be for them―
Estrada: Oh, yes.
Karasik: ―what–what would you tell them that is most important, the things that they should
really pay attention to, and the things that don’t be so concerned with. Like, what’s the most
important thing, particularly involving your culture and how they want to live their lives that–
that honors your–your history, your heritage.
Estrada: I would say―well, I do this to my boys right now. I tell them, you know, “You need to
live your life like you feel. But you also need to remember and respect all the adults.” I mean, as
we were raising the two boys, Richard and I did not allow them to speak out of turn to–to them.
Not to say harsh things or anything like that. And I think that that’s fallen away right now. And
that’s really something important that needs to be brought back, is the respect for your ancestors.
Whether they be living or not. And I hope that this is one of the programs that shows the
importance of the lives of people that have been and what they’ve gone through. I mean,
nothing’s been real easy for me, but I have to say that with the support that you have, no matter
where it comes from, it’s important that they pick it up.
Karasik: And how important that support was in your life. Had you been, for example, stayed
back in Wisconsin―although they have some pretty strong tribal activities―
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Estrada: I have―my dad has got a brother-in-law that his whole family, all his nieces and
nephews, are really into it. But it’s not a―I guess it’s because it’s not immediately connected.
Maybe that’s what it is? I mean “in bloodline” means nothing. Or how much blood―”quantum”
does not mean anything. It means–what means something–what should mean something to them
is that they were related to someone who spoke up and tried to help others in the area. And that’s
what we’re doing as a tribe, non-federally recognized tribe. Yes, we have a California
recognition, and basically that’s because of water rights. But the Califor–the federally recognized
tribes, some of them, look down on you now. But who’s doing the work? Just keep plugging
along and making sure that you’re doing what you think is best for yourself and your family.
Karasik: That’s beautiful. Who’s doing the work.
Estrada: Yeah.
Karasik: Yes. Well, I think this is probably a good place to stop―
Estrada: Okay.
Karasik: ―all though we could go on. And we’ll see what happens with the archives, and what
else we might want to do. Like, it would be really wonderful to videotape a basket weaving class.
I don’t know if that’s possible. And I’m certainly wanting to attend and–and learn more, but―
Estrada: There will be some on November twelfth. That’s basket weaving.
Karasik: Is that the same day as the Luseño honoring that?
Estrada: (nods)
Karasik: Yes.
Estrada: Yes, it is.
Karasik: Oh, and we didn’t mention, which I thought was so wonderful, that this happens to be
Native American―
Estrada: Native American month.
Karasik: ―American Heritage month. So, we’re celebrating and honoring it.
Estrada: (chuckles)
Karasik: And we have one of the best elders here.
Estrada: Oh, thank you.
Karasik: Oh, that was one question I wanted to ask you. The word “crone,” does that come from
your culture?
Estrada: The what?
Karasik: Crone?
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Estrada: No.
Karasik: Okay. It’s an elder woman. And I’m not really sure where it comes from. I think it
might be Celtic or another matriarchal based culture.
Estrada: Uh-huh.
Karasik: But I think that the respect for the elders in your culture is–is very strong.
Estrada: It’s very strong.
Karasik: And that’s really so important. And that–I think what the children―which you have
shown in your family and with all your–all your relations.
Karasik: Omitaki.
Estrada: (laughs) A lot of them.
Karasik: Yeah. That’s wonderful. Well, thank you so very much.
Estrada: And thank you for having me.
Karasik: Yes, and again this is Roberta Estrada. And we are in San Marcos at the Heritage
Museum here and this is all part of the Cal State San Marcos Archive pro–Oral History program.
Estrada: Oral history.
Karasik: Yes. Thank you very much!
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GLOSSARY
Alvin Dunn School (pg.1)
Cardiff (pg.9)
Caudell, Diania (pg.6)
Chamteela (pg.16)
Creek Project (pg.14)
Dia de Los Muertos (pg.9)
Duenos (pg.2)
Foussat (pg.2)
Frybread (pg. 11)
Indian Rock Road (pg.8)
Kumeyaay (pg.11)
La Mirada Academy (pg.1)
Life Credential (pg.4)
Luseño (pg.10)
Marine Corps Hospital (pg.1)
Mel (pg.17)
Moro Hill (pg.8)
Normal School (pg.4)
Omitaki (pg.19)
Pala (pg.2)
Palomar (pg.4)
Pamu (pg.9)
Pauma (pg.9)
Payómkawichum (pg.16)
Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch (pg.13)
San Jacinto (pg.10)
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San Luis Rey Mission (pg.2)
San Marcos High School (pg.14)
Tekua (pg.12)
Tribal Council (pg.3)
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�
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Estrada, Roberta. Interview Transcript. November 3. 2022.
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Roberta Estrada is a Luiseño woman from the San Luis Rey Mission Band of Mission Indians. She grew up in Vista, CA and was educated throughout the North County school districts. She attended college, earning both Spanish and General Education degrees. She taught ESL in the San Marcos Unified District for thirty-two years. After retirement, she became more involved in the Indigenous community and learned basketry. She accompanies her cousin, Diania Caudell, on school group presentations and teaches audiences about basket-weaving and native plants. Estrada is proud of her Luiseño heritage, and continues reconnecting with family members and getting involved in Indigenous community activities. Estrada also discusses in her interview, the process of tribal recognition with the United States government, teaching English to Vietnam refugees, and the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch.
This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos.
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Roberta Estrada
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Suzy Karasik
Melissa Martin
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2022-11-03
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Basket making
Education, ESL
Endemic plants -- Southern California
Luiseño Indians
Refugees -- Vietnam
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San Marcos (Calif.)
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English
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Roberta Estrada
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Community history
Native American experience
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Suzy Karasik
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Roberta Estrada
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5.4 Estrada, Roberta. Interview November 3, 2022 SC027-31 0:58:38 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Basket making Education, ESL Endemic plants -- Southern California Luiseño Indians Refugees -- Vietnam San Marcos (Calif.) Roberta Estrada Suzy Karasik mp4 EstradaRoberta_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-03_access.mp4 1:|17(8)|25(7)|32(10)|45(2)|57(5)|65(7)|74(11)|89(9)|116(12)|124(8)|137(2)|147(6)|162(3)|171(11)|182(10)|193(7)|206(7)|222(4)|240(10)|257(6)|277(6)|299(4)|309(11)|319(10)|329(10)|340(6)|386(7)|398(9)|420(10)|430(2)|449(4)|463(8)|473(8)|492(1)|506(10)|515(10)|526(15)|548(5)|574(10)|618(12)|634(2)|655(12)|666(2)|674(3)|708(4)|721(4)|734(10)|772(3)|803(4)|817(11)|842(6)|865(12)|890(13)|908(11)|916(11)|928(3)|944(14)|988(11) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/740a3fad6534f024735fd2e1671bc774.mp4 Other video English 0 Childhood and school years/ Indigenous identity Roberta Estrada discusses her childhood through college years. She was born into a tight-knit family, and explains that her mother was French and Native American from the San Luis Rey Mission Band tribe. She grew up in Vista, CA, but went to school in San Marcos, CA. She attended Alvin Dunn School, which is now renamed La Mirada Academy. Estrada explains that at the time, San Marcos did not have a high school district, so she attended Vista’s high school until San Marcos became a city in 1963 in her junior year. She also discusses that while in school, there were many more Hispanic children than there were Indigenous children and does not remember associating with Indigenous classmates at that time. She explains that she became more aware of her Luiseño identity later in life when her mother became involved in Indigenous groups. Estrada then recalls attending college and majoring in Spanish with a general education degree for elementary studies. She also describes her husband’s Pala background, particularly how his family acquired the surname “Estrada.” Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; College ; Hispanic community ; Hispanic people ; Identity ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Pala Band Of Mission Indians ; San Luis Rey Mission ; San Luis Rey Mission Band ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Spanish language ; Vista (Calif.) 618 Career in education Roberta Estrada discusses the sexism observed in her Indigenous community and in the school systems she taught in. She describes attending college and completing her student teaching in Wisconsin before returning back to Southern California. She explains that she attended Palomar College to complete more training before enrolling at California State University Bernadino and earning a Life Credential for teaching. She taught K-12 in the San Marcos Unified District as a bilingual teacher for thirty-two years. Estrada also discusses other aspects of her career as an educator, such as how members from the San Marcos community became involved in students’ learning and how she incorporated life skills into her curriculum. Finally, Estrada recalls teaching students who immigrated to the U.S. during the Vietnam War. California State University Bernadino ; Education ; Educators ; English language ; ESL ; Gender ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous people ; Palomar College ; San Bernardino (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Schools ; Sexism ; Spanish language ; Students ; Vietnam War ; Wisconsin 1276 Basketry Roberta Estrada discusses her involvement in basket-weaving. She explains that she has recently become involved with basketry by joining her cousin, Diania Caudell, on her school group presentation demonstrations. They also provide demonstrations to local universities about native plants. Estrada explains that they utilize processed plants from a company in Huntington Beach, CA for their presentations in order to ensure safety for their school groups. This ensures that are not handling plants that are sprayed with insecticides. Estrada also briefly explains an Indigenous coming-of-age ceremony that boys and girls participate in in the Luiseño culture. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Insecticides ; Luiseño people ; Native plants ; Pesticides ; San Luis Rey Mission Band ; School presentations 1732 Family background Roberta Estrada reflects on her Indigenous heritage and on her family’s background. She discusses how her late mother was an elder of their tribe, and how she had always turned to her mother for guidance in learning about their Luiseño culture and extended family. She also explains how she has more recently started learning about her Indigenous culture, traditions, and practices. She discusses current family traditions, such as powwows and other family gatherings. Extended family ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Native American elders ; San Luis Rey Mission Band 2032 Pride in heritage Roberta Estrada reflects on the feeling of proud of her Indigenous heritage. She explains how there are seven Luiseño tribes in the area, and yet, the San Luis Rey Mission Band tribe is the only federally unrecognized tribe. Estrada also discusses the San Luis Rey Mission Band’s recent attendance at the proclamation at the City of Oceanside meeting. She explains that this demonstrates that they are becoming more involved and making themselves more recognized in the community. She is excited to see younger San Luis Rey individuals become involved in the community. Community outreach ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous heritage ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; San Luis Rey Mission Band 2267 Land recognition and governmental involvement Roberta Estrada discusses the topic of land recognition. She explains that land acknowledgement is a much more recent component that has been added to events and presentations, whether in-person or virtual. She also explains how to present a land acknowledgment statement. Estrada also briefly explains the many obstacles that Indigenous tribes have to navigate through in order to be recognized by the U.S. government. Governmental involvment ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous lands ; Indigenous people ; Land acknowledgement ; Land recognition ; Native lands ; U.S. government 2473 Tribe's involvement in North County/ Identity and heritage Roberta Estrada reflects on North County. Specifically, she recalls her friends who operated Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch. The ranch’s land was eventually used to build California State University San Marcos. She also discusses how her family’s tribe aided the community and respected the land, such as cooking meals for the community. Estrada also explores the importance of oral history, especially in communities where histories are not recorded. Finally, she reflects on her heritage, explaining that she feels prouder of her Indigenous identity after entering retirement. She explains how she has reconnected with family members and her desire to pass on her heritage to her sons and grandchildren. She also expresses interest in continuing her education in learning the Luiseño language. California State University San Marcos ; Community outreach ; Extended family ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous heritage ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño language ; Luiseño people ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Oral history ; Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch ; San Luis Rey Mission Band ; San Marcos (Calif.) 3158 Advice to descendants Roberta Estrada provides advice to her descendants. She describes that she and her husband taught their two sons to live their life as they wish and to respect their elders. She is concerned that respect to one’s ancestors is a custom that is no longer practiced, and hopes that this is a life lesson that will be observed by future generations. Estrada ends the interview by discussing her upcoming basket-weaving presentations. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Descendants ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous heritage ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Native American elders ; San Luis Rey Mission Band Oral history Roberta Estrada is a Luiseño woman from the San Luis Rey Mission Band tribe. She grew up in Vista, CA and was educated throughout the North County school districts. She attended college, earning both Spanish and General Education degrees. She taught ESL in the San Marcos Unified District for thirty-two years. After retirement, she became more involved in the Indigenous community and learned basketry. She accompanies her cousin, Diania Caudell, on school group presentations and teaches audiences about basket-weaving and native plants. Estrada is proud of her Luiseño heritage, and continues reconnecting with family members and getting involved in Indigenous community activities. Estrada also discusses in her interview, the process of tribal recognition with the United States government, teaching English to Vietnam refugees, and the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch. April 6, 2023 Transcript Suzy Karasik: Good afternoon. Today is November 3rd, 2022. My name is Suzy Karasik and I am interviewing Roberta Estrada as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Roberta Estrada, thank you for joining me today. Roberta Estrada: My pleasure. Karasik: Great. So, I think probably the best part--the best place to start is a little bit of background--where you were born--and let' ; s talk about what was your childhood, like when you went to school, and how you identified yourself. So, I' ; ll give you plenty of time to go over that. Estrada: Well, I was born in--at Camp Pendleton at the old Marine Corps Hospital in 1945, and I' ; m the oldest of three children. My parents met at Camp Pendleton because my dad is from the Midwest, and we' ; re a very tight-knit family, and did a lot of things together. My mother i--wa--well, she' ; s passed away, but my mother was French and Native American from San Luis Rey area, and I am actually a--let me think now, what--third, fourth-born native of the area. So, I went to school very, very short period of time in Oceanside where we lived at the time when I started kindergarten. And my dad says, " ; No, that' ; s too close to Camp Pendleton. I' ; m out of the Marine Corps now. So, we' ; re going to move." ; So we moved to Vista (chuckles), long ways away. So, I only attended there for two months. At the time there was no busing for kindergarten children in Vista, so I didn' ; t go to school until I went into first grade. Went for two years in Vista and my dad says, " ; Met a couple and they said ' ; Oh no, you have to put your child in school in San Marcos because the schools are smaller and we liked them.' ; " ; So, he says, " ; Okay, we' ; ll shift you over there." ; So, I came to San Marcos in the third grade, and was there until I finished eighth grade, first graduating class out of what was then Alvin Dunn School, and then--now it' ; s changed to La Mirada Academy. Then I went to--we didn' ; t have high school in San Marcos. So, the kids that--the children that went to school in San Marcos and finished eighth grade were split up between Escondido and a few of us went in to Vista, because we were on the border of Vista and San Marcos. And, it was a much bigger school than San Marcos was when it was built, and so my dad says, " ; We' ; ll get you in there." ; Okay. So, my junior year of high school, I switched back to San Marcos schools with all of the people that--children--all the friends that I had and been raised with through school, and I finished high school the year that San Marcos became a city in 1963. Karasik: Very interesting. Estrada: Yes, and it' ; s been-- Karasik: And how was your experience there, like, when you said you were happy to go back to the school that you' ; d been with your friends in grade school? And were there other Native American children there? And let' ; s talk a little bit about also your Mexican last name and how you felt that might have been an advantage. Estrada: Well, at that time, my last name was not Estrada. At that time, my last name was Guy, very Anglo. So, in school, while I was in school in Vista, there were more of the local Hispanic children, and I don' ; t think I even associated with Native American children being--or picked out children as being--Native American at that time. All the way through school. I don' ; t believe I ever did. And I don' ; t think that that even happened until after I finished high school and I did go to college and majored in Spanish, and with a general education for elementary studies. But, I don' ; t ever remember connecting to the Native Americans at that time. My husband, his family--well, his fam--his immediate family was from Anaheim, but his father was from Pala. So, he was the Native. But he had the Native American in him. And the only reason that he got the Native American--the last name of Estrada was because that--his grandfather worked for people whose name was Estrada, and if they went to get any kind of bank accounts or do anything in town, they had to have a last name. They couldn' ; t just go by their Native American names. So, they took the last name of what we call the dueños, and those are the people that had the--the owners of the ranches and that' ; s where the Estrada name came from. But, um, my husband was the first one to get in--no, actually my mother, because her mother was Native American, and her father was also Native American. And s--their--my grandfather is from one of the prominent families in Oceanside, the Foussat family. And he is one of three brothers. So, he had a truck farm and we all learned how to help out on the truck farm. And that' ; s when I met a lot of the other Natives, I guess you would say, or--well, actually there weren' ; t a lot of Natives. There were more Hispanics than there were Natives that, uh, were in that area. Karasik: And back in that time, those years, did they k--refer to people as Natives or as Indians. Estrada: As Indians and if you talked to my father-in-law who was half-blood, he said that they could not claim being Indian or Native American and--or they would be put on--just like on the opposite side of the room at the end of the line or whatever. They had to claim--they ha--the Hispanic background, the Mexican background, in order to be eligible for a lot of things. And-- Karasik: So, this was talked about at home, and you were prepared to know how to best present yourself when you were in school or those situations. Estrada: I would say not until I probably was late high school. Karasik: Mm-hmm. But it was talked about at home. Estrada: A little bit. Well, be--the first thing that happened was that my father didn' ; t speak any--well, my mother spoke Spanish and that--because that was--they didn' ; t use a lot of the Native language at the time, and my father didn' ; t. So, it was, " ; Speak to the children in English. They need to learn in English." ; And they were married in the Catholic church, but my father had to--and in San Luis Rey Mission, in fact--but my father had to sign papers to say that my mother was to be allowed to raise the children as she was raised. So, because he was from the Midwest, and-- Karasik: She would be allowed-- Estrada: She would be allowed-- (nodding) Karasik: --to raise the children. Estrada: Yes. She would be. Karasik: And this was the San Luis Rey Mission-- Estrada: Yes. Karasik: --Band. Estrada: They were--well, yes. They were married in--at the San Luis Rey Mission in 1944, and that' ; s when--shortly after I was--I was probably about late high school when I--when my mother was getting more involved with the Native American group. She was more into helping others than--than trying to--to say " ; You' ; re--you' ; re Native American, Roberta. You need to think about this. You need to do this. You need to do that." ; She never really pointed that out to us. I have a younger sister and a younger brother, and the three of us have become pretty involved with the tribe now, of which I am part of the Tribal Council. My husband was part of the Tribal Council first, but when he could not do it any longer, then I was helping him by sitting by his side to start with. And then--and then I became part of the Tribal Council itself, aft--no, before he passed away. Karasik: I' ; m curious there. It sounds like, because you became part of the Tribal Council, and you are now, are women more respected and it' ; s a matriarchal kind of a society? And how did that feel for you, looking at other cultures where women weren' ; t perhaps quite as-- Estrada: Yes. There is more, um,--When you--If you look at our Tribal Council, I think it is a majority of women. I never even thought about it that way. But yes. And the other thing is that I would say that there were times when I would say, " ; Why don' ; t they let her speak. Why don' ; t--Why does he have to talk for her?" ; You know, when I would meet other families. And I, when I came--I went away to college, came back, and taught school here in San Marcos. And, um, the first class I taught was a kindergarten class and they were hiring--I was hired as a bilingual teacher, because I did have a Spanish major. And I can remember parents bringing their children in and not being allowed. The--the mother usually was not allowed to speak for the--for--for them. Or she would speak for the child, but if I asked a question, the mother would always turn and look to see if it was okay to answer or not. Karasik: And what year was this? Estrada: 1976. When I changed my name. Well, actually I came back in ' ; 70--let' ; s see, ' ; 68. Karasik: Right. Estrada: I came back in ' ; 68. I--What I had intended in--When I went to college, I went to college at a--what was called a county Normal School in the state of Wisconsin, because that was where my dad was from. I moved there. I lived with family so that I didn' ; t have to pay the extra in--tuition for anything. And when I came--and that was an experience in itself, because the-- I mean, my first teaching classes, my student teaching classes, were in one-room schools where they had everybody. The first room was just kindergarten through fourth grade, and the teacher I was teaching under was actually the principal of the school too. The second session was (chuckles) an eighth grade and that was even more interesting because that eighth grade had these kids that were much bigger than I was at the time. And, I mean, ' ; cuz it was only two years after I had finished high school. And, uh, then when I--I said, " ; You know. I like Wisconsin. I like the changes in the weather and the foliage and all of that. It was just really nice. But I' ; m a California girl." ; I came back. I went to school when they were first building Cal State San Bernardino. And I finished off my--Well, first when I came back, I had to get the basics from Palomar because we skipped right to the last two years of school. And now I had to go back and get my beginning language, my beginning math, my beginning sciences that the colleges require. Then I went to--When I finished at Palomar, I went to Cal State San Bernardino for two years and got my Life Credential for teaching, which is a no more existing thing now, anyhow. I don' ; t have to go back to take classes in order to teach. I could--I' ; ve been retired for thirteen plus years now. But I could go in and apply and still be eligible to get a job now if I wanted to, which I don' ; t because I' ; m too involved with too many other things. Karasik: Great. Um, yeah, I' ; m aware of that. They do not offer the Lifetime anymore. So, what was it like when you said, " ; I' ; m a California girl, and I want to come back." ; It sounds like a lot of things had changed within you as well. And I thought it was really interesting the way that you noticed how the women didn' ; t feel as comfortable--comfortable to speak. But what kind of changes did you see when you came back to the area, and--not even so much what did you see, but how did it feel for you? Obviously, you were thrilled to be back. But what--what did you kind of notice then and how did that shape the way that you carried on with your life? Estrada: Well, I think that I noticed at that time, probably into my maybe second or third year here, that the parents, the mothers were becoming more involved in what was going on. And they were more interested in how to help their children at the time. And that was a--a plus. I had a lot of connections to people that I could call on in the city also that helped out. I mean, yes, we had--I had friends that would bring their sheep in to show what happened to the sheep when they sheared it. And one of the boys that graduated from high school with me ended up to be the fire captain and I would call them and they would come out and do demonstrations during the--that. So, it just--and parents just really wanted to be a part of what was going on. And I think the moms became more involved because dads had to be working. Karasik: Right. And so was that part of the curriculum or was it--were you more free then to say " ; Hey, I think it would be a good idea for these children to see these kinds of living situations." ; Estrada: It was integrated into the curriculum. Yes. I' ; m going to say it that way. Because I could make a lesson--and I' ; m not bragging--but I could make a lesson out of, you know, a Hershey' ; s candy bar and teaching fractions. But it was something that you just made the children feel like they were part of your school community then. Other than that, they didn' ; t, you know--you go to school, you sit at a desk, you see, you pay attention to what the te--You' ; re here to learn is what they were taught. And I have to admit that was one of the things that the parents really instilled in them. But we would integrate a lot of the-- Karasik: Life skills. Estrada: --skills. Life skills. And we-- Karasik: Yes. Estrada: We made ice cream, so they' ; d learn how to measure. And we would--we celebrated all the cultures. You couldn' ; t celebrate Christmas as Christmas. This was an interesting one. So I incorporated all the different countries that I could think of and incorporated it into finding out about different cultures and their traditions at that time. So that was how I helped. Karasik: And there wasn' ; t a problem with that? Estrada: Not as long as I did that. I was-- Karasik: That you knew of. Estrada: There were--I was observed just like every other teacher had to be observed. I was observed a lot, and everything--I never had any problems with--and we had to turn in lesson plans on it. You know, it was just like " ; you want me to tell you exactly what I' ; m going to be doing in every single minute?" ; " ; Yes, we do." ; " ; Okay. So, I' ; ll write down general ones and you can come in and look any time you want." ; (laughs) Karasik: Right. Well, it sounds like, uh, it was definitely an--a--a--a plus or an advantage for you to have been from the area, having gone to another area to kind of gain that knowledge including your school. But that experience. And so would you say that it was definitely a benefit for you to feel like more imbedded in the community and you had all those-- Estrada: Oh, yes. Karasik: --connections and that made your life a lot more. Estrada: And because I taught for thirty-two years, I actually ended up teaching children of classmates that I had in school. Because a lot a--at that time they weren' ; t moving out of California. I mean, they weren' ; t moving out of San Marcos (laughs) as far as that goes. A lot of people stayed. Karasik: And people weren' ; t moving in as much, as well, as they are now. Estrada: We did--yeah. The--in my later years in teaching, then we had the--the children from Vietnam, the chil--you know, that--the immigrants from there. So-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Estrada: During that Vietnam time. Karasik: And I would assume that you integrate that--integrated them into the class. Or how did you handle some of that? Estrada: (laughs) You' ; re going to laugh, but I would speak Spanish to them. And I forget--I forget that wasn' ; t their second lan--their first language. And I would--but I--uh, there' ; s just one little--one little Vietnamese girl that sticks out in my mind so vividly is because she did not speak English when she started. So, we ran the--well, we were already using an ESL program because of going in to--well, having mostly Spanish children in the classroom at the time. And then, um, she made such a tremendous advance. By the time she graduated from high school, she was Valedictorian. Karasik: Oh, isn' ; t that great! Estrada: Yeah. So, in her--in her twelve years, you know, she was, um--she just moved right up the ladder. But it didn' ; t hurt her at all that we were speaking to her in Spanish. She picked up some! (laughs) Karasik: At a young age, yes. Estrada: Uh-huh. Karasik: It' ; s a lot easier. Well, I' ; d kind of like to move on to--I mean there' ; s--we could talk about how your work has changed since then. But I do happen to know that you' ; re a--a basket weaver. I don' ; t know if it' ; s a--if there' ; s certain levels or if you' ; re a professional. Estrada: I' ; m a beginner! Karasik: Oh, you are? But you' ; re very involved with the community and so maybe you could tell us, then. You were probably noticing changes, because certainly after the war and then after the Vietnam War, you know, society was changing considerably. Estrada: Oh, yes! Karasik: But when did you--like with the basket weaving and some of that, has that just been later in your retirement years or was it in--and you were raising children? Estrada: I have two sons, yes. I have two sons that are--I don' ; t even know--they' ; re 43 and 40, I think, right now. Forty--no, they' ; re 41 and 44. One' ; s going to be 44 next week. And I have to say that I didn' ; t really become involved in--as much with the tribe until after I retired. So, it' ; s been in the last thirteen plus years, only because I didn' ; t feel like I had enough time. I--I know you were a teacher also. But I--And I know that that just took up so much of my time, and my husband used to tell me, " ; Aren' ; t you done--Aren' ; t you off your job clock yet?" ; Or something like that would always be the remark. Now, he passed away three years ago, and I think that' ; s when I' ; ve really become more involved in the basket weaving, only because I felt like I needed to have something more that occupied me than sitting and thinking about what was going on. But, my cousin Diania Caudell says, " ; Come with me. You' ; re not working today. Come with me. I' ; m going to do a presentation at a school," ; or " ; Come and help me." ; That' ; s how it started. And, when we teach in the schools, we do a different style of basket only because it' ; s a little bit easier and we don' ; t use traditional plants at that time, because you don' ; t know if they' ; ve had any insecticide in them. You don' ; t know if they--you know, how safe or they' ; re going to have a reaction. And that' ; s the last thing you want if you go into a cla--into a group of 50 kids and have to do a--a--a basket and have somebody breaking out with a rash all over them. But so we went to cane products and we do a basic weave, and we make the starts for them. So, that' ; s what I' ; ve been doing now. Because we' ; re doing it in another couple of weeks. We have a couple of groups going on. And then, they just finish the basket. And that has been going with kids from, oh, Montessori aged schools--I mean, Montessori--for preschools all the way through to like eighth grade, and then some--Well, we' ; ve done it with the Cal State San Marcos and San Diego State also, um, college kids. Because they were in their Native American classes and their Native Studies classes, and we did baskets with them. And they would come and visit what we call Indian Rock in Vista. And it' ; s a puberty rock for girls, puberty stage. And so, um, they would come up and the--the schools have been--wa--Cal State San Marcos was involved in putting native plants there. And so, we worked very closely with them. I have a cousin now who was a professor at San Diego State, so we' ; ve become involved with some of her classes too. We also have--we do demonstrations that we call demonstrations where we use the native plants and do the native weave which is a little bit different and a little bit more complex because you have to use the awl in order to get the thread through. And so, we use the--the juncus and the--and the deer grass, and we' ; re going to be doing that tomorrow! At a school in San Luis Rey. Karasik: Oh, there' ; s so much there. One thing--when you said " ; cane," ; I--I' ; m--I' ; m thinking sugar cane. Estrada: Oh, no. It' ; s-- Karasik: Wha-- Estrada: --it' ; s the in--inside part of bamboo. Karasik: Of bamboo! Okay. Estrada: Yeah. They take it out and they compress it. And so, then it--and it--it comes-- Karasik: Now, who' ; s they. Do you get it--? Estrada: It' ; s from--we get it from a company in--in--in Huntington Beach. Karasik: So, it is processed. Estrada: It' ; s processed. Karasik: And they grow those there like they have maybe a ware--a greenhouse of-- Estrada: He gets it into a warehouse. We get it from a guy in a warehouse up there. Karasik: Uh-huh. Estrada: Only because, um, it' ; s just safer-- Karasik: It' ; s trusted. Estrada: --to use with it-- Karasik: --a trusted source, yeah. Estrada: I should have brought it inside because I-- Karasik: I--yeah. Estrada: I had some outside because I had to bring some for Diania! (laughs) Karasik: Oh yeah? And so, the other thing that I think is really interesting when you said " ; Puberty Rock." ; So is this something that was passed down for generations, and do you think that our an--your ancestors, I mean the-- Estrada: I' ; m sure that there were ancestors that went there and you--there' ; s markings. It' ; s on Indian Rock Road in Vista, off of Indian Rock. But it has markings and signs, handprints. But then of course, in the modern day, it' ; s been vandalized and so we' ; ve worked a lot with different companies and different schools and different technicians in order to find out how to remove a lot of that, because you can' ; t just go up there and paint over it like they do on the curbs and the houses and the sides of the walls, now. So, it has--(chuckles) it has poison oak around it, on purpose--(laughs) Karasik: Oh! Estrada: --now, so that you can' ; t go near it. But it was--the--Moro Hill near Camp Pendleton is part of our creation story. And it was from there a short distance to this Indian Rock and that' ; s where girls would go and do their handprints, or do a s--sign that, you know, a-- Karasik: Like a coming-of-age ceremony. Estrada: It' ; s much different than the boys. The boys go through a much rougher one. I mean, ants, and I don' ; t know what else. But the girls did, but-- Karasik: Did you participate? Estrada: I did not participate in that. And I was trying to get that information out of my mom. She reset--she told me that she remembered doing something, but then that' ; s it, you know. I never really--before she passed away--never really found out what the " ; it" ; was or the " ; something" ; was. Karasik: Right. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: And that' ; s―is there some sadness around that, or just wishing that you― Estrada: Oh, I―definitely now, because I' ; m learning so much more about the Native culture and the tribe itself, the intertwining of the families, the knowing that I have cousins beyond cousins, this kind of thing, and trying to have somebody right here (taps her right shoulder) on my little shoulder sometimes that would say, " ; Oh, that' ; s the daughter of your aunt blah-blah-blah. Or your cousin blah," ; and just trying to make sure that I knew. And she guided along that, because she was the--considered the elder in the tribe, when she passed away. And that' ; s been four years, a little bit over four years now. But, attended everything, and so that' ; s when I would learn more. I' ; d say, " ; I' ; ve seen them before, mom, but I don' ; t really remember." ; She says, " ; Well, when we were at your uncle' ; s house in the valley, that part of his family―" ; And I thought, okay. Those were the kinds of things that― Karasik: When you say, " ; I' ; ve seen them," ; you' ; re talking about some of the people that were in your family. Estrada: You would―either the family or people that would be associated with the family. I mean, I was at a Dia de Los Muertos last weekend in Fallbrook, and I thought, " ; Gee, a lot of these people (turning her head from side to side) I recognize." ; And I would stop to think, and I' ; d have to either go up and ask them, " ; Have I met you before?" ; (laughs) Or something like that. So that I would be able to make a connection. Karasik: Mmm. Estrada: And some of them I actually had met before. Karasik: Great. So, was there any, um, ritual that was done in the home, or anything that your parents ever talked about (Estrada shakes her head to indicate no) that was kind of handed down from the ancestors. Because I know there was certainly a time―like you said, sometimes it was more advantageous to be Latin or― Estrada: Mexican. Karasik: ―Mexican. Did you feel like, oh I would--I would love to have known more of the rituals or some of the ceremonies. Estrada: I' ; m just learning a lot about that now. As a family, we did not practice a lot of that. But then―I say we didn' ; t practice a lot of that. What I really feel like, maybe in a roundabout way, we did, because we always had large family gatherings. Now, in our tribe, we' ; ve had a powwow the second weekend of June every year until Covid hit. But it, um,―prior to that, it was―we would be gathering at a--a park, at a water place. I mean we were up at some creek up in Pamu―the Pauma area. Just places where―and it would be huge family gatherings, and, um, because there were eleven in my mom' ; s family, and then their kids and down through that, so― And then, besides the other brothers. One brother--one of my grandfather' ; s brother--had all daughters. I think there' ; s eleven or twelve of those. And then the other brother had six or seven. So that they―it--you know, so you just kind of (makes pulling apart gesture with her hands)―and then when you get these families all together― (makes pushing together gesture with her fists) My grand--my paren--my grandfather' ; s fa--family lived in Oceanside. And so, he was kind of the in-between the San Luis Rey brother and the Cardiff brother. So, it made a―The people in my mother' ; s family―I felt like she was a--a mediator or the in-between person to get to know this brother' ; s kids with this brother' ; s kids (gestures pulling from the left and the right into the center). And that' ; s kind of what I' ; m doing now. Karasik: Interesting. Estrada: Following in the footsteps, I guess you' ; d say. Karasik: Of your mother. How--what a beautiful way to honor her. Estrada: Well, and on top of that, I have my husband' ; s family, who is from Pala and San Jacinto area, and trying to get them to know the rest of this family. So, you know, it' ; s always " ; I' ; m going to call Roberta, because she' ; ll know." ; Well, if Roberta doesn' ; t know, she tries to figure it out and find out who it is, you know, make a connection. Karasik: Right. So, I wanted to―I guess I would use the word " ; pride." ; Was―because the--the times have changed now, di--but, when you were younger or compared to now, was the certain pride about being Native American? And then there were times where that was not talked about, like where you said it was easier to say I' ; m Mexican. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: And, um, whe--where is that now, and h--how has that changed over the years? And do you feel much more--more pride and feel that it' ; s more important? Or― Estrada: I think it' ; s very important, because there are seven Luseño tribes in the area. And San Luis Rey is the only unrecognized tribe. We are still trying to get the recognition process done. But I think we' ; re working at it together. We may not be federally recognized, but we are recognized by the people and the cities in the area. Last night, we went for a proclamation from the city of Oceanside. And, um, I think there were ten or twelve of us there last night, at the City Council meeting. And, um, it just made me feel like, " ; Oh! This is getting good." ; Because now they' ; re becoming more involved. For a while, it' ; s always the same group. And that group is getting up there in years. And we need to pass it along. And we' ; re trying to―right now, I' ; m working with a younger cousin who has, um, aspirations to involve the younger people, the thirty-and-unders people, to get in--more involved. And so, we' ; re working together and getting those―I couldn' ; t believe the amount of people that were there that were in that age group. And then at the―We went--After that, we went to the Inyan--Indian monument that' ; s in San Luis Rey Mission cemetery, in the old cemetery part. There' ; s an Indian monument, and we had quite a large group there, that we put candles out and all the great-grandmothers and uncles and aunts, and so forth, around there. It was very, very touching moment, to feel--to feel that so many of these people―And then, at the end they were even saying, " ; Well, we' ; d like to know more about this. Or maybe learn about that." ; Because there was a period of time when―I know my boys― Karasik: I wanted to ask you about your boys, if they' ; ve claimed their culture. Estrada: My boys did not know a lot about the Native Americans to start with. Karasik: Those two pages in the history book weren' ; t enough in eighth grade? (chuckles) Estrada: No. And it--they were not. And now they' ; re, um―they don' ; t live in the area. They both live in Arizona now. But they' ; re―because of their work, and they will ask questions, though. And they will want, say, " ; Oh, are we going to do that this year? Oh, I think I' ; ll come for powwow. Are we going to have it?" ; " ; Mom, I don' ; t think I' ; m quite sure on what to do with this." ; But they both learned how to make their frybread. (chuckles) Karasik: Yes. Estrada: That' ; s something that was stuck with them, and that was there. So― Karasik: Yeah. I think it' ; s really interesting how throughout the decades, if you will, it' ; s been sort of not in fashion― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: ―to look at your culture. Now, it' ; s very much in fashion. Estrada: Land acknowledgment, right now, is one of the big things. And so, you' ; ll hear that when you go to different, um, occasions, or different presentations. They' ; ll say, " ; We want to acknowledge that we are on Native land." ; We want to― Karasik: Absolutely. Estrada: ―you know. That' ; s more going on now, and you see that in their speeches. Whereas you didn' ; t see that before. Karasik: Absolutely. I--I find that in--in, just when I' ; m on a Zoom―in fact, my name―and then I put what city I' ; m in, and then I put what stolen lands that I occupy. Be― Estrada: Mm-hmm. Right now, we' ; re on (gestures quotes with her fingers) Karasik: Kume― Estrada: ―Native land. We' ; re on Ku―we' ; re―well, yes. We' ; re not on Kumeyaay land. We' ; re on―we' ; re in between, now. It' ; s between the Luseño and the Kumeyaay area. Karasik: And so, Luseño is sort of the umbrella of the six or seven tribes― Estrada: Seven tribes. Karasik: ―that you were talking about. And the recognition―are there certain aspects of it from the government or from the tr--tribe itself? Estrada: Government. Karasik: From the government. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: So, the tribes, for sure, recognize you, but it' ; s some kind of a governmental requirements to― Estrada: Yeah. There' ; s a lot of r--there' ; s a lot of red tape, you may as well say― Karasik: Right, right. Estrada: ―that you have to jump through. Karasik: And--and is― Estrada: You have to have proof of being a government from a--for a period of time. And so, that' ; s one of the things. Karasik: Of being like a sovereign― Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: ―nation or--or― Estrada: Yeah. Karasik: You know. Estrada: Where you have a―where you do things then. So, you' ; ll find if they' ; re doing any activities, you' ; ll find people that are recording that, so they' ; ll have a recording of what' ; s going on now. And― Karasik: Documentation― Estrada: ―documentation of all of that. Karasik: ―every―Right. Estrada: Going back to when we were talking about the basket weaving, we do a lot of things with the--the schools now. And so then, before we start with that, we tell them where we' ; re from. Yes, we know that this part―now, like when we went to do it at San Diego State. Yes, we are on Kumeyaay land right now. We were invited to do this. And what we use for the schools is a Cherokee style. And so, we were given permission from Tekua, so that it was--would be available. Giving―I don' ; t want to say permission―I want to say you recognize where everything came from. You don' ; t say it' ; s yours if it' ; s not yours. Karasik: So, there' ; s a respect for the origin of it, and then there' ; s also a--a, like you said, a recognition or a--um, yeah. I--I' ; m--I' ; m thinking of so many things. I--You said " ; tekua." ; Is that some organization, or what― Estrada: It' ; s the Cherokee, Cherokee band. Karasik: Oh! Okay. And who' ; s that umbrella? Estrada: Cherokee. Karasik: Ok. And then Tekua is underneath― Estrada: Yeah. They' ; re part of the Cherokee. Karasik: ―that. And then are they a little bit more going east, like to Arizona? Or are they― Estrada: No. They' ; re, um, more, um, Oklahoma area. Karasik: Oh, right. Okay. Estrada: In that area. Karasik: Okay. Um, oh, there' ; s just so much there. And you' ; ve really been wonderful to kind of branch into some of the questions that I wanted to ask you. Um, I think I--I want you to tell me how you feel about doing this oral history, and how important it is. What--what are--what kinds of things do you want our descendants to know, and how important will that be for--for them, and that' ; s why we' ; re doing this oral history. And then, maybe you can add in there some of your accomplishments, if there' ; s any regrets that you might have had, um, and kind of how your life path has changed, I think more since your retirement, and how that feels for you to, um, be more involved and have that pride and want to really pass that on and tell this story. Estrada: Well, it' ; s interesting, because I do have two twenty-year-old grandchildren, a sixteen-year-old, and a six-year-old, and trying to make them understand their heritage at the same time. And so, yes, I' ; m doing that with them, but I hope that other people are letting their children know about their culture and heritage, no matter what culture and heritage it is. And, um, having the pride, not hiding yourself. And it' ; s important to know that one of the things that--I mean, San Marcos―I have to say. I don' ; t live in San Marcos. I lived in San Marcos at one time. I did after I was married. Also, I lived there for a short time before we moved into Escondido and then Vista. So, we' ; ve lived in North County. But it' ; s always had a place in my heart. And the people are just so interested in what everybody else is doing. I grew up in this area being friends with people from the egg ranch--Prohoroff' ; s Egg Ranch--and just having, you know, and like all those race horses over here on the other side, and then the farmers on the other side. So, it was a big diverse. And I need to have my boys tell their kids that there' ; s more to it than Minecraft on the computer. Karasik: Uh, absolutely. Estrada: And so― Karasik: So, when you said egg ranch, it was like, " ; oh, there' ; s probably a whole story there." ; So, some of those, the egg ranch and the others that you will mention, they' ; re still here. So that' ; s― Estrada: (shakes her head). Karasik: Oh, they' ; re not. Oh. Estrada: C.S.U. S.M. was--is built― Karasik: On― Estrada: ―on the egg ranch, on Prohoroff' ; s Egg Ranch. Karasik: Oh! On all those lands. How was that? Estrada: It was hard at first. Karasik: Were there burial grounds there as well― Estrada: Um, probably. Karasik: ―that we know of? Estrada: No. Probably, probably. In the extension that they were building at San Marcos High School, they' ; re--in where they' ; re working, where the construction is now, there will be a lot of orange fencing. In the Creek Project in San Marcos, too, there' ; s a lot of orange fencing, because that' ; s all--the Natives lived along the water source, and I know that my mom' ; s aunts worked and--and my mom--I don' ; t think my mom' ; s mother did but--my mom' ; s aunts were in a lot of those camps, cooking for the people that were, you know, working on, or living in these areas, or working in these areas. Karasik: Yeah. I' ; m curious there, because I--I know back, you know, pre-modern technology, they often moved because first they respected the land. And there were different growing periods and animals. There are all kinds of reasons that they would move. And so, that would be then sometimes how the women might go there and then support that, or― Estrada: Ours went--Our tribe went from the ocean to the mountains, because they would go up in the mountains and collect the acorns and so forth. But my grandfather' ; s father was a sheep herder. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Estrada: And he would--would go up in that area. His―My grandmother' ; s brothers were miners and helped at the mining area in the Pala area. So, you know there was this way, and this way. San Luis Rey Mission is built on our Indian village site. The, um―they were given the opportunity to move up to the mountains or just spread (indicates spreading out in groups with her hands) and diverse themselves, and that' ; s what they did. A lot of them went into the farming and into construction and things like that. Karasik: So, you heard about your mother' ; s mother and father, or your--even like your husband' ; s parents and grandparents. Those were just stories that were kind of passed down. Do you feel― Estrada: It' ; s all oral story. Karasik: Yeah. And--and so that oral history, you― Estrada: Is important. Karasik: ―Absolutely. Estrada: It' ; s not all recorded, except (points to her head) up here now. Karasik: And that' ; s a lot why we' ; re doing it here. Estrada: That' ; s a big reason why I' ; m very into what' ; s going on right now. Yes. Karasik: And I think you' ; ve done a fantastic job. Estrada: Oh. Karasik: We could go on and on. I also think it' ; s ironic that, um, Cal State San Marcos, who' ; s doing this project, is on that land. Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: So, in a way, it is--they are giving back. Estrada: They' ; re sharing. Karasik: Which is--is really good. Estrada: The best part of this whole thing is this " ; site" ; (gestures air quotes) that we' ; re in today was actually on the elementary school that I went to. It was our cafeteria. Karasik: This specific building? Estrada: This specific building. It was our cafeteria, and we had our (gestures quotes with her hands) " ; dances" ; inside this building. We did our choir from the stage. Karasik: This stage? Estrada: This stage. The only thing that' ; s different about it now is there used to be a kitchen connected. Because when we were in maybe fourth grade up, you could be a--you could be a cafeteria helper. Karasik: Sure. Estrada: And, um, you' ; d help serve at the lunch line, and I did that. But it― Karasik: It' ; s interesting. When you said " ; dancing." ; So, it was okay to dance. And that dancing, was it more like " ; American culture?" ; Or was― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: It was. Estrada: Yes. It had nothing to do--do (shaking her head) with the Natives at all. Karasik: Okay. Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: Yeah. Um, I could talk about that, but this is your story. Estrada: (laughs) Karasik: Um, so, I' ; m thinking there' ; s not very many regrets. It sounds like you' ; ve really had a wonderful life. Estrada: I think after my retirement, um, I became more involved and then it made me feel even more proud of my heritage. Karasik: Yes. Estrada: And then the--on top of that, um, I made a lot of connections to different family members and my husband' ; s family, and trying to get that all focused on, so that I could intermingle that so I could pass that on to my boys who could pass it on to their children. And I really feel that by doing things like this and coming out and talking about it―I know that when I first started, Diania would say, " ; Let' ; s go." ; Okay. I' ; d go and I' ; d stand in the background. Well, I listened a lot. Well, that' ; s how I learned my Spanish in the first place, because my grandfather sold to―he sold the rabbits and the guy that came to pick up the rabbits couldn' ; t speak English and he would speak Spanish to him. And here would be Roberta by his side. So, I mean, he was one of the influential people, I' ; m learning, that second language that was so important in this area. But, um, now I' ; m interested in trying to pick up the Luseño language, the Chamteela. I can' ; t even say it. Because we' ; re called the Payómkawichum, which are the people of the west. And so, it goes all along the western coast and in--into the mountain. Karasik: And is there anyone still around― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: ―to teach some of that? Estrada: Yes. I have to take my time and go to those classes. Karasik: So― Estrada: Right now, they' ; re just starting some Zoom classes for―they called it for the young people. But there' ; s a lot of people that want to learn it beyond that. So, we' ; ll see what happens. But they' ; re doing them on Zoom right now. Karasik: You― Estrada: Because you need to hear it. Karasik: I' ; m sure, yes. Estrada: You need to hear it. You can' ; t do it from the book― Karasik: You have to― Estrada: ―and read it. And, um, I' ; ve got several little kid' ; s books that I' ; ve gotten from my grandkids that have the English on one side and the Luseño language on the other side and yes, you can do it that way, but you still don' ; t hear the correct pronunciation. Karasik: Yeah. That' ; s really important. The--it' ; s--I' ; m feeling like in some ways it' ; s full circle. You know. It' ; s coming back full circle, and now a--a--the pride is really more known amongst― Estrada: I think it' ; s more evident now and you can feel it. Karasik: And even outside of your culture. Estrada: Yeah, you can see it coming back. Because looking out at the people that were sitting at the City Hall last night, and them paying attention to what was being said about our culture, about ourselves, by the captain at the time. Mel was talking and you just look out at the people and you could see them really into what was being said about what was going on there, so― Karasik: That must feel wonderful. Estrada: Yeah. And so, I mean, it makes you feel. I told them that. I told somebody else, after the Dia de Los Muertos thing last night. I just go, " ; You know, I really feel very proud to be part of this group." ; And it ma--it makes you feel like― Karasik: Right. Estrada: ―you' ; re doing something good. Karasik: Absolutely. I' ; m so happy for you. Estrada: (chuckles) Karasik: And so, I guess, um, in closing, obviously if there' ; s anything else that you' ; d really like to say, but I feel like we' ; ve had a--a really wonderful conversation. And I hope you do as well. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: But if you―you know, there' ; s a lot of work done now too, around, beyond the veil. Like people have passed and sometimes people want to get in touch with them, or wish that they could have, you know, tell― Estrada: Conversations. Karasik: Right! And so, if you had that―if some of our--your descendants had the opportunity to talk with you, which is a lot of what this will be for them― Estrada: Oh, yes. Karasik: ―what--what would you tell them that is most important, the things that they should really pay attention to, and the things that don' ; t be so concerned with. Like, what' ; s the most important thing, particularly involving your culture and how they want to live their lives that--that honors your--your history, your heritage. Estrada: I would say―well, I do this to my boys right now. I tell them, you know, " ; You need to live your life like you feel. But you also need to remember and respect all the adults." ; I mean, as we were raising the two boys, Richard and I did not allow them to speak out of turn to--to them. Not to say harsh things or anything like that. And I think that that' ; s fallen away right now. And that' ; s really something important that needs to be brought back, is the respect for your ancestors. Whether they be living or not. And I hope that this is one of the programs that shows the importance of the lives of people that have been and what they' ; ve gone through. I mean, nothing' ; s been real easy for me, but I have to say that with the support that you have, no matter where it comes from, it' ; s important that they pick it up. Karasik: And how important that support was in your life. Had you been, for example, stayed back in Wisconsin―although they have some pretty strong tribal activities― Estrada: I have―my dad has got a brother-in-law that his whole family, all his nieces and nephews, are really into it. But it' ; s not a―I guess it' ; s because it' ; s not immediately connected. Maybe that' ; s what it is? I mean " ; in bloodline" ; means nothing. Or how much blood―" ; quantum" ; does not mean anything. It means--what means something--what should mean something to them is that they were related to someone who spoke up and tried to help others in the area. And that' ; s what we' ; re doing as a tribe, non-federally recognized tribe. Yes, we have a California recognition, and basically that' ; s because of water rights. But the Califor--the federally recognized tribes, some of them, look down on you now. But who' ; s doing the work? Just keep plugging along and making sure that you' ; re doing what you think is best for yourself and your family. Karasik: That' ; s beautiful. Who' ; s doing the work. Estrada: Yeah. Karasik: Yes. Well, I think this is probably a good place to stop― Estrada: Okay. Karasik: ―all though we could go on. And we' ; ll see what happens with the archives, and what else we might want to do. Like, it would be really wonderful to videotape a basket weaving class. I don' ; t know if that' ; s possible. And I' ; m certainly wanting to attend and--and learn more, but― Estrada: There will be some on November twelfth. That' ; s basket weaving. Karasik: Is that the same day as the Luseño honoring that? Estrada: (nods) Karasik: Yes. Estrada: Yes, it is. Karasik: Oh, and we didn' ; t mention, which I thought was so wonderful, that this happens to be Native American― Estrada: Native American month. Karasik: ―American Heritage month. So, we' ; re celebrating and honoring it. Estrada: (chuckles) Karasik: And we have one of the best elders here. Estrada: Oh, thank you. Karasik: Oh, that was one question I wanted to ask you. The word " ; crone," ; does that come from your culture? Estrada: The what? Karasik: Crone? Estrada: No. Karasik: Okay. It' ; s an elder woman. And I' ; m not really sure where it comes from. I think it might be Celtic or another matriarchal based culture. Estrada: Uh-huh. Karasik: But I think that the respect for the elders in your culture is--is very strong. Estrada: It' ; s very strong. Karasik: And that' ; s really so important. And that--I think what the children―which you have shown in your family and with all your--all your relations. Karasik: Omitaki. Estrada: (laughs) A lot of them. Karasik: Yeah. That' ; s wonderful. Well, thank you so very much. Estrada: And thank you for having me. Karasik: Yes, and again this is Roberta Estrada. And we are in San Marcos at the Heritage Museum here and this is all part of the Cal State San Marcos Archive pro--Oral History program. Estrada: Oral history. Karasik: Yes. Thank you very much! https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Title
A name given to the resource
Estrada, Roberta. Interview November 3, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
Roberta Estrada is a Luiseño woman from the San Luis Rey Mission Band of Mission Indians. She grew up in Vista, CA and was educated throughout the North County school districts. She attended college, earning both Spanish and General Education degrees. She taught ESL in the San Marcos Unified District for thirty-two years. After retirement, she became more involved in the Indigenous community and learned basketry. She accompanies her cousin, Diania Caudell, on school group presentations and teaches audiences about basket-weaving and native plants. Estrada is proud of her Luiseño heritage, and continues reconnecting with family members and getting involved in Indigenous community activities. Estrada also discusses in her interview, the process of tribal recognition with the United States government, teaching English to Vietnam refugees, and the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-31
Subject
The topic of the resource
Basket making
Education, ESL
Endemic plants -- Southern California
Luiseño Indians
Refugees -- Vietnam
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-11-03
Format
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video
Creator
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Roberta Estrada
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Suzy Karasik
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
San Marcos (Calif.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Roberta Estrada
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving image
Community history
Native American experience
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c5940d5103570c06601179277b230b8f.pdf
6501572b27876302ad6780f8f8a675fb
PDF Text
Text
JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
Seth Stanley [Interviewer]:
This is Seth Stanley. Today I'm interviewing Jenny Ruiz for the California State University San Marcos
Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at
the University Library. Hi Jenny. Thank you for coming.
Jennie Ruiz [Narrator]:
Hi, Seth <laughs>.
SS:
To start out, uh, can you tell me a little bit about your background and how that maybe has influenced
your work in higher education?
JR:
Oh, goodness. Okay. Background. How far do you, how do you, how far do you want me to go?
SS:
As long as you want.
JR:
Oh goodness. Well, I was born, no, um-SS:
Go for it.
JR:
Background. Um, so I'm born and raised in San Diego, um, from Mira Mesa originally, um, went to
college up at Sonoma State. For my undergrad. And did, um, got my degree in sociology. So I did a few
different majors, but then I landed on sociology cause I had a really great Intro to Soc[iology] professor
who I really enjoyed. Um, and through my time at Sonoma State, I got involved in various things. I
mainly had to work on campus just to pay bills and live and all that. So I worked in like different food
service and I worked in retail off campus, and actually told the story last, it was, what was it, Tuesday at
a session I led about my like, professional journey.
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�JENNIE RUIZ
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But I had a, a job on campus where I was having to put up flyers across campus and I hated it. I would
have like hundreds of flyers to post. Um, this is before lot. This is before like electronic signage and all of
that. So I, um, and I was miserable but I saw a flyer for a job in the Career Center on campus and I'm like,
thank goodness no one else has seen this ad at this point ‘cause I'm putting the ads up, so I'm gonna
apply for this job, which I did. And that kind of took me into this path of, um, of higher ed and student
affairs. It kind of opened me up into, like the orientation, you know, kind of world new student
orientation, ‘cause a lot of things were run through that area. Academic advising, I interacted with, um,
the program called Freshman Seminar there, which is similar to our GEL program here [program geared
towards first-year students and student success in academia].
So I served in various leadership roles. I actually got, uh, I was on the dean's list one semester. There,
grades were never my thing, but one semester I got on the dean's list and I got an invitation to apply for
leadership positions on campus. So that in conjunction with my job in the Career Center just kind of
launched me into kind of the higher ed. like, oh, this is kind of fun! So I was an orientation leader. I
worked as a peer mentor in our freshman seminar class. I was a student assistant [at the] Career Center.
And then once I graduated, I was looking into kind of a counseling area. Um, didn't quite know what I
was going to do and my dad, funny enough, got me a book called What to Do with a Sociology Degree,
and I was reading it one day and there was a paragraph on college counseling and I was like, of course I
could do this job for work! I had never even connected [that] the professional staff that I worked with
were doing that as a career. So that kind of, you know, launched me and I applied for grad school. I went
to USD [University of San Diego] for my master's in counseling with a specialization in college student
development. Worked in my orientation, worked in the orientation program there as a grad assistant.
And then after that, got a job at Stony Brook University in New York as a residence hall director. Um, my
friend tipped me off to a job that was here at Cal State San Marcos to be Coordinator of New Student
Programs. So I applied for that job and I thankfully got it. And, um, that started my career here back in
2006, back when, funny enough, C3 [Cross-Cultural Center] was literally, I think the size of this room
when I first started on the fourth floor, third floor of, um, no, the administrative building past, then
[named] Craven Hall. So, and then since then I've just held a variety of positions and here I am. <laugh>.
SS:
[Inaudible] Tell me more about what motivated you to work in a specifically a college setting and
specifically supporting student success.
JR:
Yeah. I think people go into higher ed or any of their professions for one or two reasons: either they had
a really good experience or they had a really awful experience and didn't want that to be repeated for
somebody else. In my case, I had a fantastic college experience. I had great mentors, I had really great
opportunities. Um, so I felt very fortunate. And I just, you know, in my work as a peer mentor in the
freshman seminar class, I was meeting individually with these first time freshmen, really working with
them and, and you know, talking with them about just life and how to connect and find their place on
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campus. And I found myself really enjoying it and kind of becoming-- it was a natural thing to me. Um,
and so I think I wanted to feel that in my career, be able to really take that with me. And, one of the
great things about I think this campus, but just the CSU [California State University] is I think our
students are just so special and just work so hard. Not saying that students don't work hard other places
but that there's something about our students here. Um, there's a lot of gratitude, there's a lot of
understanding, I think, of the privilege they have of being here and getting their degree and, you know,
working with that population is really, really rewarding. So, you know, did I want-- I wanted to be that
for other students moving forward. But I just loved the feel of being on a college campus. There's
nothing like it. I now have a almost seven year-old and just, he's been able to be here since when, since
he was born. And just knowing that-- he actually said the other night, he's like, “You go to college!”
And I'm like, no, I don't go to col-- I'm not a college student, I work at a college. But he just, he
associates college with me. And that's just, he's grown up in that environment. And then my mom also
worked at USD for 30 years. So, I grew up going to campus with her and hanging out with college kids
who, funny enough, seemed significantly older than they do now. So, it was just always a part of, you
know, who I was. And so, I felt fortunate to find a place here.
SS:
And, now you're working as the Interim Director of Student Success Coaching, right? Can you walk us
through your experiences as that at the job?
JR:
In the five weeks I've been in the position, <laugh>, um, it's… it's been, it's been really great. It's actually
brought me back to I'd say my roots here because I started here at CSUSM overseeing orientation and
really working with new students and first year students and all that. So, it's been fun in the short time
I've been here to work with the team to really be creative about how we're gonna be engaging students
who are coming in this next year. We're kind of in this two… two paths right now. It's the finish this
semester, but then let's think big and creatively for the incoming class who're gonna be here in fall
[20]23. So just really, learning from the team and thinking about how impactful the work that they're
doing can really be for the retention success of the first-time freshman coming in.
So, I don't know how much you know about the program but it serves first-year students who are not in
an otherwise specialized program. So who are not in the Educational Opportunity Program who are not
in TRIO [Student Support Services], who are not in CAMP [College Assistance Migration Program], um,
ACE Scholars who are former foster youth, and then athletes or international students. So, we kind of
capture the rest of the students, so don't really have a home, you know, and we wanna be that contact
for them to kind of have that, that person they can go to for any questions that they have just about
college. Um, so it's going well. I'm really enjoying it. I'm able to be creative and think through things and
plan, which is something I love to do.
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SS:
So, I know you've only worked there for, you've only been working in this position for five weeks, but,
um, could you tell me, tell me about, your leadership style and how you adapted to different situations
and team members?
JR:
Yeah, I mean, I think I can relate it to, ‘cause I was in my old position as associate dean for almost seven
years. So I've been in management leadership roles for over ten, twelve years now. But yeah it's been
interesting because I joined a brand new team and so I really had the chance to kind of see how I was
gonna adapt myself to them and how they were gonna receive me. And you know, it's funny, my first
day I brought donuts and I said to them, ‘cause this team right now doesn't have a permanent space.
They're literally working in a temporary space right now. So my first thing was how do I provide them
with a level of, you know, kind of stability and structure. So even in an absence of a physical, permanent
location, they can kind of feel that stability.
SS:
Mm-hmm.
JR:
But I came in that first day and I was like, so I haven't started a new job in a very long time. So I said, I
just ask for your grace. But I'm as much as, as reasonable and appropriate, obviously it's just about the
human first. These are all human beings who are working in a job and if you don't connect that piece
and know what really matters to these people just in life, you're kind of missing the mark. So my goal
was, and I told people ‘cause they wanted to meet with me, people outside my team wanted to meet
with me very quickly to like talk about coaching and how I could collaborate. And I said, I want the first
month to be me focusing on the team, getting to know the team, building those relationships.
And so meeting with them individually and getting to know their strengths and kind of where there's
opportunities. But I, I'd say I'm very, I'm all about personal connections and relationships and being
collaborative. But I'm also good about being, like, sometimes we just kind of have to do things and we
can't bring everyone into the fold, but I want to be as transparent as possible, communicate, provide,
make sure people are in the loop. ‘Cause the less transparency there is, people then start to kind of
worry and, you know create a narrative themselves. And so, but also humor. I like to approach things
with humor. But Yeah.
SS:
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�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
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Well, sounds like you're the right person for the job. <laughter> Um, I'd like to ask, how have you
leveraged your networks and relationships to support student development and success?
JR:
Oh gosh.
SS:
<laughs>
JR:
You know, it's… so this talk I just gave on Tuesday, the Division of Student Affairs does, um, they just
started this series called Conversations with Leaders. And they finally, they asked, they asked me to
speak and I'm like, okay, because part of me is like, “You want me to talk? Oh, that's fine!” So I talked a
lot about this, but one of the benefits of my job, the job I had here when I first started with orientation:
it's such just by the nature of the job, so highly collaborative that, that set me up for how I have literally
done everything else in every other position I have here on campus. So, it had me working with event
planning, with catering, with parking facilities, with advising, with, you know, leadership to student life.
Like I work with every area on campus. And so through that, and I'm asking people to do things when I
don't have any leadership or jurisdiction over them. And so you very quickly had to establish this
relationship with people so you can-- ’cause all I would do in that job is ask people for favors. It's just, “I
need you to do this. Can you help with this?” And so, and I fast forward now, there's one of the
colleagues I've worked with, I met him my second day working, he works in advising and now I'm
meeting with him about coaching and how to collaborate. And it's just, we laugh now that I'm like, talk
about full circle and even doing training on some technology that we're gonna be implementing into the
program. The person in IT [Information Technology], I worked with him when PeopleSoft was first
coming on board. And so again, it's like “It's so fun to work with you again!”
But, all that to say, it's been so key. And I think what has been very validating is when I've come into this
job, the, the reactions I've gotten from people saying, “I'm so glad it's you and I can't wait to work with
you in this role.” And that's been really affirming and I feel like because of my relationships, I've been
able to, you know, there's credibility. I'm able to connect the coaches with people that they haven't
connected with before. And, you know, if they have a question, I'm like, ”Let me just ask this person
directly, like what the answer is.” They're like, “You can just do that?” I'm like, “Yeah, I just can chat
whoever, or text whoever and vice versa.” So what I shared on Tuesday at the session was relationships
is literally how I've gotten everything done here on this campus. It's, it's been so, so important. So I don't
think I answered the question?
SS:
No, I love that. I love that. I'm so glad to see you [indistinguishable].
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JR:
It's been, it's very sweet. I'm like, “Thank you!” It is very, because especially it's people that I've worked
with forever and you know, and you just want people who are collaborative and willing to hear you out
and you can laugh with. And I actually said to somebody the other day on the call, I said, “You don’t have
to be diplomatic with me. Just tell me there’s clearly something there. So just like, tell me how you’re
feeling so we can just deal with it.” And I think they appreciated it because with some people you have
to be very diplomatic and be very discreet in how you're saying things. And I'm like, just, “I've been here
long enough. Like, just tell me.”
SS:
[Indistinguishable] So I'd like to ask, how do you approach building rapport with students and
understanding their unique, needs?
JR:
Yeah. Um, so I've had the benefit, I mean, since I've started here to work directly with students. So in my
orientation job, I supervised volunteers who are on orientation team. I supervise students who were
paid staff. Like those were my direct reports. So I was directly supporting and working with students. I
think very similar with how I just work with anyone. I… it's so hard to describe something that I feel like
just kind of happens, but I try to feel people out. You know, again, I approach a lot of things with humor,
but obviously if this setting is not appropriate right, it's, you know, I'm able to kind of feel that out. I feel
like I'm very intuitive. Like, I joke that my superpower is intuition because I can… I can tell-- if I know
someone, I can tell like when they walk in a room and be like, there's something going on or what's
happening, and I'll just kind of give a look and be like, you let me know what you need. Like, but I just, I
stop and I make efforts. I get to know people and with students, that makes, that makes a difference.
You know just being visible and being authentic. Providing, you know, sharing with-- with discretion of
course, but like my own personal life and connections and here and there. Um, but you know, in my old- in my previous position, I was working with students in some really difficult circumstances ‘cause I was
overseeing student conduct. I was overseeing students who were really in a difficult situation within
their life. Whether it's, they've had very something very difficult happen to them and they're navigating
it and how they're acting may not be the most appropriate in that setting. And just, um, I'm really good
about student[s] coming in and being like, “What is going on? Like, what's, what's happening?” And also
good about being like, what we're doing here isn't working. So how do we, let’s figure it out. So through
the years I’ve gotten very good at being direct, but in a supportive manner? Um, some, well, supervisor
joked with me, she's like, “I've never met somebody who could suspend a student, and in the same
sentence, the student, thanks you.” <laugh> It's just, it's treating somebody as a human being. ’Cause,
even if you're making a decision that's difficult, you can still do it with compassion. And humor too. I
love to be sarcastic with students, like, especially O team [Orientation Team]. ‘Cause I still have a
connection with the students who are on orientation team. ‘Cause my previous position, I was still in the
same office and I would, they'd be laying down on orientation day and I'd just be like, “What are you
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doing?” They’re like, “Oh, sorry Jennie!” And I'm like, “Come on,” <laugh> “Get your, get yourself
together. Don't be laying down on the job.” So.
SS:
All right. Um, finally we're gonna get into the Cross-Cultural Center Questions.
JR:
I know this is like, this is getting us-- getting me warm. Okay.
SS:
I Really love that. Yeah. I love, like, you're just a person people can trust, a conduit of stability.
JR:
Conduit of stability. Oh, that's deep. Okay.
SS:
Could you, anyway, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began
engaging with it?
JR:
Mm-hmm. What I remember about C3 is what we call it. Um, so when I first started, we had, and I
imagine you're interviewing Alexis Monte Virgin,
SS:
Um, I'm not sure, she's not one I'm interviewing.
JR:
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Yeah, he was the coordinator when I first started. Um, he's like a president of a university now. It's
amazing. So he was, he was the coordinator. The, the interaction I had with C3 when I started… because
I oversaw orientation, the Student Life and Leadership Office at the time was this compacted space in,
um, past known as Craven Hall. And so when I had on orientation days, we needed a place for
Orientation Team to debrief the day. So we'd go up to C3. So that's how, that's what I remember it as.
We'd go up to, we'd go to C, we'd be sitting on the floor. They had these big red couches, the red
couches, the red chairs, and, it was small, but it was like, it was cozy. But yeah, we would just be having
people sit on every surface possible and have our debriefing sessions there. And that's kind of my initial
like, connection and, memory of how I first interacted.
SS:
This is a really big follow up, but, how did it shift over time? And did you have any role in this change?
JR:
Um, how it shifted? So, pretty quickly after I started, probably within the first year… and I think the plans
had already been happening, was we were gonna be moving spaces. We were gonna be moving, offices
to the first floor, no, to the third floor [of the Administration Building]. So I don't know if you're familiar
or not- where Ace Scholars is now, where the Tukwut courtyard is? That's where Student Life and
Leadership used to be. So we were already, when I first started, kind of in this future planning, dream
big mode of what can Student Life and Leadership look like. But at that time, C3 was under the purview
of Student Life and Leadership. So figuring out where and how that space - because it was very
important to have a designated space - not have it be interweaved into our office, but have a
community building location for the Center.
So, I am sure that I was part of conversations because we were doing like kind of physical planning of
the office, figuring out where everything was gonna kind of be. Um, because I was overseeing
orientation, the space back then it was, I had this massive cubicle… Um and then around the corner
through a door was where C3 was. So it was an office physically located like right off of the general
Student Life and Leadership office. So, kind of talking through and brainstorming how we were gonna fit
these red couches into that space. The space was kinda like a triangle. So doing the physical kind of
puzzle pieces, you know, figuring out, um, you know, what to put on the walls and to create that space
was definitely part of that conversation. So, but yeah I don't remember the nuances, but I would
imagine because it was physically located there, we were all part of that “What does this look like?”
conversation. So, um, how it's evolved since then? I mean, it was in that space. And then, if I remember
correctly, I don't know what happened first, but a leadership program was created within Student Life
and Leadership. It's called SLL [Student Life and Leadership]. And, the idea was to create a Tukwut
leadership. Um, is it Tukwut Leadership Center? Yeah. I think I'm remembering this correctly. So what
ended up happening, I think a space opened up in the Commons Building directly across from Commons
206, I think is the room. And so the Cross-Cultural Center moved up there and then the [TLC], that
[Tukwut] Leadership [Center] space, um, kind of a space for leadership programs and student
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organization meetings, stuff like that, moved into that triangle space on the third floor. So the space
when it was up there was… I mean, it was massive.
It was, I mean, comparatively speaking, I mean there was, there were windows, um, there was like a
welcome desk. There were the couches again, I believe. We had at one point, I don't know what the
timeframe was, but we had painted this like collective mural where everybody had like, it was a,
program that they had brought to campus with a muralist. And they pretty much gave us different
pieces to draw and paint. And that was put together, I think it's still up in the C3 here in the Student
Union, I wanna say. But that was up in the space and it was just bigger and more open. And I wanna say
it was up there until the Student Union opened, which I wasn't in as much conversation about because
at that time I had transitioned more into the Data Students Office-ish role.
So I wasn't gonna be under the same umbrella. But I remember the conversations about the physical
space in the Student Union and, the offices and having a balcony and having programming space and all
of that. And so you see this space now. I mean it's just, it's just beautiful. And it's with the balcony. And
we've held some retreats in there and separate kind of staff meeting stuff. And Floyd's [Lai, Director of
the CCC] great. He's always willing to host people. Um, so it's done a lot of trainings in there and stuff
like that. So, that's kind of how the physical space has evolved. It's gone a long way from this sized
office.
SS:
Thank you for that.
JR:
Yeah.
SS:
So many permutations. I love the red couches.
JR:
The red couches. I mean, that's the thing. And you probably will hear a consistent thing is this thread,
the red couches is what C3 was. Like, that is what was, you know, the signature furniture there.
SS:
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Yeah. [Indistinguishable]
JR:
Oh, I'm sure you did.
SS:
Anyways, um, I knew that you were temporary temporal, sorry. Temporarily responsible for the CrossCultural Center during a transition between associate directors. Let me ask you, what led you to that
position?
JR:
<laughs>
SS:
How’d that Happen?
JR:
I don't know. You know, I think, when you're in a-- when you're leading a department right? And
somebody leaves, you're kind of like, okay, who could kind of pick things up and keep them moving
while we're doing a search, right? I think the reason I was kind of a natural person to jump into that
position and I felt very grateful to do it, was because with my work with New Student Programs and
Orientation, I had collaborated with, with Sara Sheik, who remains one of my dearest friends, we had
collaborated on the creation of a peer mentoring program. So it was a orientation, New Student
Programs and Cross-Cultural Center, um, Multicultural Programs, collaborative program. Where we
focused on pairing up first-year students from underserved, underrepresented populations. So really it
was, I forget the criteria but, primarily students of color, first gen[eration] students who weren't part of
other specialized programs, which now I think about it, I'm like, that's funny. That's the population I'm
working with again. So, because we had worked so closely on that and had, we're really working with
the staff on creating that program, and we interviewed and hired the mentors and we onboarded the
mentees and all of that stuff. I think when Sara ended up leaving, I was a natural kind of… ‘Cause I had
already been working with the, with the directors and coordinators of the other, of the other centers. I
had already been working with the staff in C3 on this program. So, it was kind of a natural, you know,
“Can you just help with this for a little bit?” And so that way we, you know, can have some consistency?
Um, so it was a fun-
SS:
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Yeah, I tried to find how long you were in that position. I couldn't find it. How Long?
JR:
It was about a semest- I'd say it was about a semester, if not an entire semester. It was a couple of
months in the spring semester of… oh gosh, I don't know what year it was. [20]10, [20]11, [20]12,
around that time. Yeah, because it was before- ‘cause I moved into the Interim Assistant Dean of
Students position in January, 2013. So I would say it was probably nine [2009] or [20]10 possibly, but it
was only a couple months while we worked on, hiring and getting Floyd. So.
SS:
Perfect. I don’t wanna get too sidetracked but, I'd like, if you’re willing, I'd like you to tell me about your
friendship with Sara [Sheikh]. How is she?
JR:
God. Is this what she started crying about when she was asking about relationships?
SS:
I’m not sure. <laughs>
JR:
Oh gosh, Sara, what a special human. Um, she texted me earlier. She's like, how was your interview? I'm
like, it's at three. So I'll tell her that you all asked about her. Um, I remember interviewing her because
when we would bring candidates on for our department, you know, we'd all have a chance to meet all
the candidates and whatnot. She first off, she was not, how do? This is the diplomatic part of me. She
was not allowed to reach her fullest potential here. Her skills and her talents were not as tapped as they
possibly could have been here. She left before she should have. Um, but opportunities arose and she
had to take it. But she is, we are so incredibly different, but she is a quiet, calm, intentional, just
peaceful human being.
Everything she does is with intention and purpose. And she's one of those people in my life, and I tell
her all the time, and it's now her and her wife because they're, they're like cup filling people like you,
you hang out with them, you spend time with them. And I'm like, okay, my soul, has been refilled. Um,
not to get into politics, but this is, this is related the day of the, the day after the 2016 election, there
were various emotions. And she happened to be on campus that day. She, Sara was here, this was years
after she'd gone, but she happened to be bringing a group of students here to campus. And I told her, I
said, you are the perfect and only person I would've wanted to interact with on this day. Because she's
so good at just like being in a space with and just allowing space and asking intentional questions. But…
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and then her laugh is just so unique. Like when you get her laughing, it's just like, there's no laugh like it.
Um, but she just, the students so highly respected her, and everything that she touched here, again she
did with intention and purpose. And she makes everyone feel like literally you're the only person in the
room. She has nothing else to distract her. It's a very intentional, like, you're hearing it a, a pattern like
purposeful and intentional. She's just a good, good person. So, I remember, ‘cause I tend to talk a lot
and, um, and this isn't fair ‘cause you're asking me to talk, so there's no, there's no judgment here. But I
remember we were at a, we were doing a staff retreat and I had to get used to that. she would process.
So, you know, somebody would ask a question and a prompt, and we had to give space for Sara because
Sara needed time to kind of put all of the thoughts together and process and whatnot. And so, I've
always taken that with me. But, we've, you know, she was at my wedding. I was at her wedding. She met
my son when he was, you know just after he was born. I've had the privilege to, I was there the day that,
they officially adopted their son. I was taking pictures and just, just one of those people, you know? Just
one of those people in your life that I'm grateful for our relationship here. And just the connection and
it, I, it’s one of those things where I’m like, thank you for allowing me to stay in your life. Because
there’s days where I’m like, what do I bring to you? <laughs> Because she's just so fantastic. But she
would just kind of, she would brush that off and be like you’re nuts. So she's special.
SS:
I love that. That's incredibly great [indistinguishable]. That's amazing. I know we're in the little sidetrack
here, but-
JR:
No, it's fine. it's all connected.
SS:
It’s all oral history, its all about people, so.
JR:
It Is.
SS:
Back to the Cross-Cultural Center. Could you tell me about a favorite memory? Or not even a favorite,
just a memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center?
JR:
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Hmm. <laugh>.
SS:
This is a little stumped [one].
JR:
No, it's not stumped. I just, there's certain things that it's like, I just immediately remember and I'm like,
it doesn't have to be super deep, right?
SS:
Mm-hmm.
JR:
I remember there was a period of time, I don't know, I think it was before Sara left, but, um, there were
ti-- I don't know if she was out, but, we needed to have physical presence in the Center. And so each of
the SLL staff would sign up for shifts to sit at the front desk of the center. And, I remember, I love
NSYNC. It's a boy band. Yeah. And I remember I was listening to Pandora at the time, it was Pandora.
And I told them, I was up there, I had like a morning shift and I said, “If I am here at my shift, you are
hearing NSYNC and boy bands.” And it just became a thing. They’re like, “Oh, Jennie's here.” And I would
just play that music. And, it was, that's the first thing that kind of came to mind. It was just kind of funny.
They were like, “Oh God, Jenny's on shift.” But it was cool because it got us physically out of our own
offices and I looked forward to that, you know, physical, that physical location change. But then to
interact with students in different ways. Um, God, there's a lot of memories. I met a student, and I won't
say his name for obvious reasons you'll learn shortly, but I first met him in C3 and I remember him
‘cause he would walk in and he was always in military gear, but like not like he, he was like within the
military, he was always just wearing like military-grade-SS:
Camo?
JR: Yeah. He had like a, this military-grade backpack, like, the combat boots and just, and he was just the
sweetest, kindest person. And I, that's he, that was the first time I met him was in the C3. And he would
come in there all the time and that's where he would hang out and we would talk about life. And he
quickly disclosed to me that he had dealt with some significant mental health challenges. And just, my
brother has also dealt with some stuff and so he and I were connecting on that and just talking about life
and making those connections. And I remembered he had gone away for a bit and then he had returned
and he was, he was having some challenges as only a couple years ago. Unfortunately he passed away
last year. But I always remember just that connection I had with him.
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And I realized, you know, a lot of other people on campus had that connection with him. He was just, he
was just this unique soul. He was like an old soul. He dealt with so much adversity with mental and
physical health, but he just always came with just a presence of kindness and just sh- like sheer
gratitude. And when I… when I changed, when I moved outta my office a couple weeks ago, ‘cause I was
in that office for nine years. One of the things I was, I was cleaning this stuff out and I found a thank you
card from him. And I was like, wow, what a gift. And he had, it was after I was out of the role within
relation to [C3], but it's a couple years ago when I helped him with some stuff and it just said, “Thank
you for helping me in one of the difficult times in my life.” and I was just like, God, what a gift you just
gave me. So, um, I don't know if I would've had the chance to meet him had I not been in that, you
know, in that physical space because I know that was a space of safety for him, which was I know the
case for a lot of students, so.
SS:
Wow.
JR:
[Mm-hmm] <laugh>.
SS:
Sorry about that.
JR:
I know it’s tough and yeah. Yeah.
SS:
[indistinguishable] It's remembering NSYNC Radio, at least. <laugh>
JR:
NSYNC Radio. But I think even with him, I still smile, you know, and um, yeah, ‘cause again, he just
exuded gratitude and it, um, yeah. So mm-hmm.
SS:
Well on a lighter note! Uh.
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JR:
<laugh>, I know, sorry take these down.
SS:
No, no, no. It's perfect. It's perfect. I know you only worked there for a semester, but how might have
your work at the Cross-Cultural Center helped you develop as a professional?
JR:
Massively. I mean, you know, as a, as a White woman, straight CIS woman, I bring privilege with me and
I always am trying to learn and understand that what my physical presence may bring depending on the
space and I'm at right? And, the majority of the students who, who hung out in that space were, were
students of color, primarily students who were of Asian Pacific Islander descent. But, it was something
for me to be able to-- when I first got asked to kind of fill in the role, part of me was like I didn't want my
own identity to be a detriment to their development. But I realize now me even just knowing that I think
<laughs> makes a difference. That I'm aware of how my identity impacts those around me.
But there were some experiences that came up that I remember we were doing, we were doing some
activities… Oh we were doing a, an event and it was around, um, Judaism, and I don't remember what
the content of the workshop was, but Hillel, which is still an active organization for serving and
supporting Jewish students, but obviously non-Jewish students can be involved. There was some
concern about us offering this workshop and possibly providing false information. And it was one of
those things that in the moment you can get very defensive, right? You can be like, no, you know, we're
not, we're not trying to do anything to whatever. But what it had me do was, you need to stop for a
second and be-- again, the intentionality. It really taught me just you to think of anyone who could be
potentially impacted, but also leveraging the voices that you have and collaborate and pull them in.
Um, ‘cause why wouldn't have we have collaborated with folks on campus who live that on, on a daily
basis and could provide some additional you know, but I was advising students at this time and the
student was just doing what he was told. He was creating these workshops kind of in a vacuum. But it
was a really good lesson to, again, do things as intentionally as possible. Even if it means you have to
move the workshop a few weeks later, if it means we're doing it the right way, let's do that. So that was
a really good lesson and I think it ended up being fine. We ended up collaborating with them. Um, and
then just…Trying to think. I mean, just working with all different types of people and interacting with
students I probably normally wouldn't have just because they weren't involved in Orientation Team. Like
this, this particular pocket of students who worked as student assistants, within all the other centers
because there was kind of like this collective team they had of- at the time the Women's Center, the
Pride Center, and the Cross-Cultural Center, those three centers; our staffs would get together on a
frequent basis. And there’s folks from other staffs that I have connected with that I'm still in, contact
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with that I probably would never have interacted with. And to be honest, they probably would never
have even-- based on who I am and how I present and probably would never have even interacted with
me. And so, it was a great opportunity to kind of make those connections. But, um, I learned some more
things just about program planning. We, we planned some pretty big events and just again, how to
honor history and culture and doing it in a meaningful manner while advising students who just wanna
get things done. And it's like, how do you balance that? So that was, um, that was a good experience.
SS:
Yeah. That's great. Um, making connections. using your voices. Moving on, could you describe, and this
doesn't have to be with the Cross-Cultural Center ‘cause I know you worked a pretty short time over
there. Could you describe a project or initiative you with that you are particularly proud of, or were a
part of necessarily?
JR:
Hmm. Geez, just so many-SS:
<laughs>
JR:
I think I can discuss the peer mentoring program. Although it was short-lived, I think for what it was. It’s
one of those programs that no matter how good of a program you have, if you don't have the resources
to continue it, you can only do so much. And so… but it was, it was really cool because it was kind of a
brainchild of Sara and then she came to me and said, “You work with new students, can we just do this
connection?” And so we really got a chance to dig into the benefits of peer mentoring and we kind of,
we created it really from the ground up. We recruited current students to be peer mentors, created that
training for them. And because of my work with O-Team [Orientation Team], who is solely volunteers,
you know, I had a training with them, a weekly training with them on, in the spring semester, and then
we had retreats. And so I was able to really bring that component. Um, and then what Sara brought was
really the, the pieces of how-- why we're serving this particular population because there is an equity
gap that our white students are persisting at a higher rate and graduating at a higher rate than our
students of color. So, and then there was research that showed that peer mentoring specifically helps to
close-- is one of the most beneficial components that a student could have to have a peer to peer
connection. So it was really fun to work with her on that and really create the curriculum, create the, the
criteria for the mentors. And then I remember we had spreadsheets and we were divvying up the, the
caseloads of like who, or not the caseloads-- of like who would be matched with certain mentors and
stuff like that.
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Um, and so that was really fun. And then once Sara left and Floyd came on, um, I don't think it was a
while, but he and I had the idea to do like an overnight retreat with this program. So what we did was
we had them all come together. So we've had the mentors and the mentees, this is before school even
started, had them on a bus. We drove up to Julian [California] and we did kind of team-building
activities. And it was really-- I remember we had this, we wanted to do a ropes course and we had,
there's a ropes course at this camp. And I remember Floyd and I were brought in probably three days
before the retreat. And our boss at the time said, we can't spend the money on this. And we're like,
“What are we supposed to do?” So then he and I just like hunkered down and created like our own like,
internal team-building exercises, but we're like, “What the hell are we gonna do?” But we figured it out.
What's funny now is I think it was that year, one of the mentees is now on my coaching staff.
SS:
<laughs>.
JR:
So I've known him forever and it's really cool. And then funny enough we, well it's not funny but, we had
to buy a new car this past weekend, track me here-- and I, we go to San Diego County Credit Union
because that, we had literally just paid our car off on Thursday and that's when our car died. So we went
back to San Diego County Credit Union. Said we wanted to get a loan with you again. And as we’re
meeting with this loan officer, she’s like, where do you work? I told her, she’s like, “I knew you look
familiar!” And my husband's always like, “I swear to God, she knows people everywhere.” And she said,
“I was part of the peer mentoring program” and I remembered her ‘cause she was assigned to, I would
say was our best mentor ‘cause some of our mentors left a lot to be des-- like, “Can you talk? Can you
touch base with your students?” But this one -- and her last name was Ruiz as well -- and so we
connected on that, but it was so cool to see this student who had been in the peer mentoring program
and just being like, “I remember you!” And it was a nice little reunion. Um, but I thought it was a really
cool framework to create. Um, unfortunately the resources just weren't able to keep it going. So.
SS:
Yeah. That's cool that you saw your, your one mentor—[indistinguishable]
JR:
It was so funny that, “I know you look familiar!” When I said I worked at campus, it was funny.
SS:
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Yea I Know plenty of people working in the university space currently working with limited resources.
Yeah, it's definitely challenging.
JR:
It is. Especially when it's such meaningful work like that. I mean, it's literally to support, but now I'm in a
space again to be able to do that same kind of work, which is exciting.
SS:
Mm-hmm. What is the significance of having a space that champions underrepresented students?
JR:
Um, I mean so much. And with underrepresented students, obviously that's such a large umbrella, right?
And then every group and, and community that makes up that term needs different things and there's
an intersectionality and all that and it can-- but you know what it really comes down to, it's about
equity, right? And it's interesting having conversations with people who don't quite get it and there's
people who make comments sometimes it's like, “What about a space for us?” And I'm like, do you
understand that any-- I can go somewhere and see someone who looks like me and understands my
experience. I mean, generally speaking, pretty easily, if you have a student who comes to this campus
and does not see anyone who looks like them during the day, does not have a faculty member teaching
them who is from the same culture or community, to be able to have a space that a student knows they
can go to. To have an experience that just physical and mental and emotional safety on a daily basis, for
them to do homework and define that community will only help them to be better in all aspects of their
life. That's why programs like EOP [Educational Opportunity Program] and ACE Scholars and those
programs exist because they're-- every student should have access to the same level of services, right?
First and foremost. But, if you look at certain populations and certain areas where students are from,
they then need that much more support to get them to the same place that more majority populations
are. So I think providing spaces like this is one step in providing that, that equity. Um, because I can
imagine a student coming here and I've never really experienced it, but being like, “I don't see myself
here.” They're not gonna feel an emotional connection to the campus. They’re not gonna feel like going
to class because why would they care? I mean, there's some students who inherently they just have this
intrinsic motivation and they'll go to school and it's fine.
But you wanna have that, that community and sense of belonging. That'll just make it that much more
just robust of an experience for them. And the community pieces is massive. So spaces like this, if done
well, and intentionally and has good leadership and the resources it needs. Because the thing is these
centers-- and people joke a lot of times are placed in the basements of buildings, they're placed in
inaccessible areas that people don't necessarily know about. If you do it well and put 'em in high traffic
areas like the USU [University Student Union], have staffing and resources to really support those
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students, then it goes well. But just historically spaces like that are just under-resourced and which is an
issue. So.
SS:
Yeah. Um, I guess in that same sort of area of, doing it right. Are there any aspects of your time at the
Cross-Cultural Center that you would've approached differently if given the chance?
JR:
Mm. I, when I came in, because again, there was this like conglomerate of the three spaces. I would, and
it was a really short period of time, but I got kind of sucked into their drama <laughs>, and I wish I
would've come in and I don't know if I had fully found my voice yet like if I, knowing what I know now
about things and haven't gone through when I've gone through now, I feel like I would be able to go in
and be able to really help the students to be very… To, you know to collaborate, but not necessarily be
dependent on, I think, I wanted to collaborate with these other folks but I think there was almost a
sense of like I had to defer to what they wanted kind of thing. And so probably it would be fun to go
back in there now knowing what I know now and see how things would be different. But, I don't know. I
think that the state of where I was at the time, you learn based on where you're at in life. And I got
lessons, from it. I, um, there were-- I worked with my first student who I was aware of being
undocumented at the time and just learning about that process and learning about that impact for her
and just, I mean we literally, no one knew but she would, she would submit kind of a fake time sheet
every month just to have this sense of normalcy and that nobody would question. And just, that was
kind of my first, kind of opportunity to, to work with students experiencing those challenges. So. I can't
think of anything glaring. I was still I think pretty early and young in my profession. Um, so, there's still
days where I’m like, “You wanted me to be in there?” But, it worked out. But I think those are the things
I can, I can think of.
SS:
That’s good.
JR:
Yeah.
SS:
More experience.
JR:
More experience. It’s all, it’s all experience. Yes.
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SS:
Well, as we're wrapping-- winding down, I know you mentioned before that a lot of people that would
go to the Cross-Cultural Center were um--
JR:
Asian Pacific Islander.
SS:
Oh yeah. Asian Pacific Islanders.
JR:
<laughs> Yes.
SS:
I, a lot of questions are raised around like these cultural centers, like the Black Student Center and, the
Latinx Center and stuff like that. And should there be an Asian student center? Should there be a white
student center? What's your response to that?
JR:
<laughs> That's my response. <laughs> Um, I mean, I think I mentioned it before about the purpose of
these spaces. Everyone, every student should have access to support and resources on our campus. I do
not think inherently based on the setup of society, students at particular demographics are lacking
spaces where they see others like them.
SS:
Mm-hmm.
JR:
Like I said, things need to be, do, done well. You need to have the staffing. I think it's always going to be
met with some dissonance because there's gonna always be people who just don't get it. But the people
who are the ones traditionally, and I know there's people who may identify as the same within that
center and say, I don't think we should have, you know, separation or whatnot. But it depends where
20
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
people are at on their identity development. And when you kind of go through identity development,
you get to the point where you're comfortable enough in your space and your skin and your whatever to
understand that everyone else is in a different space and that's okay. And that some students may be
okay with it and some students may really need that space to be successful. And again, if having a Black
Student Center allows one black man who goes to school here to have a physical space that he can go to
feel safe, then I think that's been successful because otherwise where would he find that here? Right. I
think the people who ask those questions about, why don't we have this? Why don't we have this? And
it's like, I don't-- there's gonna always be people who ask those questions and they don't have an answer
for it. They don't have anything to kind of back up, you know, you ask the question of, “Why do you
think we need that space?” And they don't have any, you know, there's no research to back up the
answers that they're hoping to get. It's just, they're there-- The questions are just being asked, I think to
kind of stir things up. But again, the caveat is: you don't wanna just do it to do it to check off boxes. You
need to do it as intentionally as possible. And I'm far from being an expert on how to implement that.
But if you don't have the resources and don't have the institutional support, you're only gonna be,
you're set up to fail.
SS:
Mm-hmm. Perfect. Great. Um, yeah, I like that answer. If it helps. It's worth it.
JR:
Yep. Mm-hmm.
SS:
To conclude connecting to that question, uh, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it
coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces?
JR:
I would imagine, I'll say Floyd specifically ‘cause he has been the longest-tenured, um, director in there
now. [Floyd] is probably been asked how he's gonna be-- What is the Cross-Cultural Center? How does
the Cross-Cultural Center kind of stand apart from the other identity centers? I think with the CrossCultural Center, although other centers talk about intersectionality and you know, and that sort of thing,
I think what the Cross-Cultural Center can really focus on is really that multiculturalism, how all the
different identities intersect and kind of can help to facilitate those conversations and understandings
and that sort of thing. I would imagine there's been conversations about-- do we have a space for, you
know, our APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American] students? Because that tends to be the space
that, that population tends to spend time.
21
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
I think, there were conversations way back in the day where, ‘cause they're Kamalayan Alliance, I don't
know if it's a really big organization now, but Kamalayan Alliance was a massive student organization
back in the day, and that was primarily the students who made up the space in the center and some
people had issues with it. It's kind of like but this is not supposed to be just for Filipino students, but it's
like, who defines that? You know? It depends on who has a connection here and who feels connected.
So, I would imagine-- I know there's some campuses who have, I mean, tons of different affinity spaces
and identity centers. And I'm sure there's gonna be conversation about what, what is C3’s role in that?
Um, I don't know the answer I'm not privy to those conversations, but I'm sure the questions have come
up of what is the space for this type of physical and identity space in the midst of adding all these
different, identity spaces? Other campuses do it. It's just, I'm sure there's a lot of conversations about
what is the vision and mission and kind of, where's it gonna go, which can be exciting. Um, but I'm sure
there's also some pressure to be like, who are we? What is our, what is our mission here on campus?
But, um, the current leadership can figure it out. He's [Floyd Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center]
good. He's good.
SS:
Yeah, he is good.
JR:
He is good.
SR:
Anyways, thank you so much for coming here and—
JR:
This was Fun. <laughs>. I don’t know what I expected, But yeah.
SS:
Anyway, I’m gonna end the recording.
JR:
Okay.
22
TRANSCRIBED BY
SETH STANLEY
2023-04-23
�
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Oral history interview of Jennie Ruiz for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project on April 7, 2023. Biographical information about Jennie, how she started working for California State University San Marcos, her leadership and networking skills. Jennie’s friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu and its impact on her. Her experience running the Cross-Cultural Center, and her thoughts about its role at CSU San Marcos.
This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos.
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Jennie Ruiz
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Seth Stanley
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2023-04-07
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Student success
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San Marcos (Calif.)
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Women's experience
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5.4 2023-04-07 Ruiz, Jennie. Interview April 7, 2023 SC027-029 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral histories collection CSUSM This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos. California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Student success Jennie Ruiz Seth Stanley mp4 RuizJennie_StanleySeth_2023-04-07.mp4 1:|40(5)|52(10)|66(9)|77(15)|94(11)|105(8)|118(2)|135(1)|148(7)|166(14)|186(3)|212(2)|223(3)|235(3)|255(3)|273(1)|282(3)|292(4)|304(7)|342(5)|353(8)|368(2)|378(4)|388(3)|399(13)|410(1)|457(10)|468(7)|486(7)|510(1)|519(10)|529(9)|539(3)|549(4)|595(6)|606(1)|621(8)|633(13)|677(3)|690(1)|699(12)|713(1)|723(1)|736(10)|753(7)|764(3)|775(1)|794(6)|817(2)|837(9)|847(10)|860(10)|874(5)|885(2)|895(3)|937(11)|957(9)|968(3)|982(2)|1003(2)|1015(12)|1026(3) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/514cb50273b20f4b16cea6c5712830f4.mp4 Other video English 1 Introductions Introductions from Seth Stanley and Jennie Ruiz 34 Biographical/Educational Background Ruiz describes her personal and educational background. 85 Work During Education. Ruiz recalls working as a student and how it lead to her career in enabling student success in higher education. 187 Discovering Counseling Career Path Ruiz speaks about her beginnings of counseling as a career path and what led her to California State University San Marcos. 281 Experiences working for Student Success Ruiz recalls experiences supporting student success on campus, work as a peer mentor, the special-ness of the CSUSM student body, her work in the Dean of Students Office. CSUSM ; Student Success ; Student Success Coaching 555 Leadership Style and Experience Ruiz speaks about her leadership roles and leadership style in a university setting. CSUSM ; Faculty ; Leadership ; Staff ; Student Success Coaching 710 Network and Relationships on CSUSM Campus Ruiz details her networking skill and speaks about the relationships she's built at CSUSM CSUSM ; Faculty ; Networking ; relations ; Student Affairs 934 Relationships with Students and Building Rapport Ruiz speaks about her relationships with students on campus, building relationships with students and understanding their needs. CSUSM ; Faculty ; O-Team ; Orientation ; Student Relations ; Students ; Team-building 1162 Initial Experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center Ruiz speaks to her initial experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center, how she interacted with the CCC in her role overseeing student orientation, and what the center's physical space was initially like. C3 ; CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Jennie Ruiz ; SLL ; Student Life and Leadership 1260 Cross-Cultural Center's Change Over Time Ruiz recalls how the Cross-Cultural Center changed over time, how the space where the CCC was located in relation to other parts of Student Life and Leadership, and the center's move to the Commons Building, work on a collaborative mural, and then the move to the University Student Union building. C3 ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Floyd Lai ; Jennie Ruiz ; SLL ; Student Life and Leadership ; Tukwut Courtyard 1791 Friendship With Sara Sheikh-Arvizu Ruiz describes her friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu, former Associate Director of Multicultural Programs at CSUSM. CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Jennie Ruiz ; Sara Sheikh ; Sara Sheikh-Arvizu 2080 Favorite Memories From Cross-Cultural Center Ruiz recalls working at the front desk of the Cross-Cultural Center, and remembers a student with significant mental health challenges, who found refuge and friendship at the CCC. C3 ; CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Jennie Ruiz ; NSYCH ; Students 2344 How the Cross-Cultural Center Helped Her Develop as a Professional Ruiz speaks to the impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on her as a professional, her privilege, and centering voices in programming. Ruiz recalls a workshop with the campus Jewish community. CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; intentionality ; Jennie Ruiz ; Privilege 2652 Memories from the Peer Mentoring Program Ruiz recalls some of her experiences with the creation of the Peer Mentoring Program and recalls an overnight retreat. CSUSM ; Floyd Lai ; New Students ; Peer Mentoring Program ; Retreats ; Sara Sheikh ; Team Building 2956 Thoughts on the Significance of Identity-Specific Spaces Ruiz speaks to the importance of having identity-focused university spaces like the Black Student Center, the Latin
/x Center, etc, which champion underrepresented communities and assist with student success. ACE Scholars ; Community ; CSUSM ; Diversity ; EOP ; Equal Opportunity Program ; Identity-Specific Spaces ; Underrepresented 3354 Cross-Cultural Center and the Purpose of Identity-Specific Spaces Ruiz expands on why identity-specific spaces are necessary and what groups benefit from them. She also goes on to speak about the role the Cross-Cultural Center plays with the expansion of identity-specific spaces. APIDA ; C3 ; CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Identity Specific Spaces ; Jennie Ruiz ; Kamalayan Alliance ; Pacific Islanders Moving image Oral history interview of Jennie Ruiz for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project on April 7, 2023. Biographical information about Jennie, how she started working for California State University San Marcos, her leadership and networking skills. Jennie’s friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu and its impact on her. Her experience running the Cross-Cultural Center, and her thoughts about its role at CSU San Marcos. Seth Stanley [Interviewer]: This is Seth Stanley. Today I' ; m interviewing Jenny Ruiz for the California State University San Marcos Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Hi Jenny. Thank you for coming. Jennie Ruiz [Narrator]: Hi, Seth < ; laughs> ; . SS: To start out, uh, can you tell me a little bit about your background and how that maybe has influenced your work in higher education? JR: Oh, goodness. Okay. Background. How far do you, how do you, how far do you want me to go? SS: As long as you want. JR: Oh goodness. Well, I was born, no, um-- SS: Go for it. JR: Background. Um, so I' ; m born and raised in San Diego, um, from Mira Mesa originally, um, went to college up at Sonoma State. For my undergrad. And did, um, got my degree in sociology. So I did a few different majors, but then I landed on sociology cause I had a really great Intro to Soc[iology] professor who I really enjoyed. Um, and through my time at Sonoma State, I got involved in various things. I mainly had to work on campus just to pay bills and live and all that. So I worked in like different food service and I worked in retail off campus, and actually told the story last, it was, what was it, Tuesday at a session I led about my like, professional journey. But I had a, a job on campus where I was having to put up flyers across campus and I hated it. I would have like hundreds of flyers to post. Um, this is before lot. This is before like electronic signage and all of that. So I, um, and I was miserable but I saw a flyer for a job in the Career Center on campus and I' ; m like, thank goodness no one else has seen this ad at this point ' ; cause I' ; m putting the ads up, so I' ; m gonna apply for this job, which I did. And that kind of took me into this path of, um, of higher ed and student affairs. It kind of opened me up into, like the orientation, you know, kind of world new student orientation, ' ; cause a lot of things were run through that area. Academic advising, I interacted with, um, the program called Freshman Seminar there, which is similar to our GEL program here [program geared towards first-year students and student success in academia]. So I served in various leadership roles. I actually got, uh, I was on the dean' ; s list one semester. There, grades were never my thing, but one semester I got on the dean' ; s list and I got an invitation to apply for leadership positions on campus. So that in conjunction with my job in the Career Center just kind of launched me into kind of the higher ed. like, oh, this is kind of fun! So I was an orientation leader. I worked as a peer mentor in our freshman seminar class. I was a student assistant [at the] Career Center. And then once I graduated, I was looking into kind of a counseling area. Um, didn' ; t quite know what I was going to do and my dad, funny enough, got me a book called What to Do with a Sociology Degree, and I was reading it one day and there was a paragraph on college counseling and I was like, of course I could do this job for work! I had never even connected [that] the professional staff that I worked with were doing that as a career. So that kind of, you know, launched me and I applied for grad school. I went to USD [University of San Diego] for my master' ; s in counseling with a specialization in college student development. Worked in my orientation, worked in the orientation program there as a grad assistant. And then after that, got a job at Stony Brook University in New York as a residence hall director. Um, my friend tipped me off to a job that was here at Cal State San Marcos to be Coordinator of New Student Programs. So I applied for that job and I thankfully got it. And, um, that started my career here back in 2006, back when, funny enough, C3 [Cross-Cultural Center] was literally, I think the size of this room when I first started on the fourth floor, third floor of, um, no, the administrative building past, then [named] Craven Hall. So, and then since then I' ; ve just held a variety of positions and here I am. < ; laugh> ; . SS: [Inaudible] Tell me more about what motivated you to work in a specifically a college setting and specifically supporting student success. JR: Yeah. I think people go into higher ed or any of their professions for one or two reasons: either they had a really good experience or they had a really awful experience and didn' ; t want that to be repeated for somebody else. In my case, I had a fantastic college experience. I had great mentors, I had really great opportunities. Um, so I felt very fortunate. And I just, you know, in my work as a peer mentor in the freshman seminar class, I was meeting individually with these first time freshmen, really working with them and, and you know, talking with them about just life and how to connect and find their place on campus. And I found myself really enjoying it and kind of becoming-- it was a natural thing to me. Um, and so I think I wanted to feel that in my career, be able to really take that with me. And, one of the great things about I think this campus, but just the CSU [California State University] is I think our students are just so special and just work so hard. Not saying that students don' ; t work hard other places but that there' ; s something about our students here. Um, there' ; s a lot of gratitude, there' ; s a lot of understanding, I think, of the privilege they have of being here and getting their degree and, you know, working with that population is really, really rewarding. So, you know, did I want-- I wanted to be that for other students moving forward. But I just loved the feel of being on a college campus. There' ; s nothing like it. I now have a almost seven year-old and just, he' ; s been able to be here since when, since he was born. And just knowing that-- he actually said the other night, he' ; s like, " ; You go to college!" ; And I' ; m like, no, I don' ; t go to col-- I' ; m not a college student, I work at a college. But he just, he associates college with me. And that' ; s just, he' ; s grown up in that environment. And then my mom also worked at USD for 30 years. So, I grew up going to campus with her and hanging out with college kids who, funny enough, seemed significantly older than they do now. So, it was just always a part of, you know, who I was. And so, I felt fortunate to find a place here. SS: And, now you' ; re working as the Interim Director of Student Success Coaching, right? Can you walk us through your experiences as that at the job? JR: In the five weeks I' ; ve been in the position, < ; laugh> ; , um, it' ; s-- it' ; s been, it' ; s been really great. It' ; s actually brought me back to I' ; d say my roots here because I started here at CSUSM overseeing orientation and really working with new students and first year students and all that. So, it' ; s been fun in the short time I' ; ve been here to work with the team to really be creative about how we' ; re gonna be engaging students who are coming in this next year. We' ; re kind of in this two-- two paths right now. It' ; s the finish this semester, but then let' ; s think big and creatively for the incoming class who' ; re gonna be here in fall [20]23. So just really, learning from the team and thinking about how impactful the work that they' ; re doing can really be for the retention success of the first-time freshman coming in. So, I don' ; t know how much you know about the program but it serves first-year students who are not in an otherwise specialized program. So who are not in the Educational Opportunity Program who are not in TRIO [Student Support Services], who are not in CAMP [College Assistance Migration Program], um, ACE Scholars who are former foster youth, and then athletes or international students. So, we kind of capture the rest of the students, so don' ; t really have a home, you know, and we wanna be that contact for them to kind of have that, that person they can go to for any questions that they have just about college. Um, so it' ; s going well. I' ; m really enjoying it. I' ; m able to be creative and think through things and plan, which is something I love to do. SS: So, I know you' ; ve only worked there for, you' ; ve only been working in this position for five weeks, but, um, could you tell me, tell me about, your leadership style and how you adapted to different situations and team members? JR: Yeah, I mean, I think I can relate it to, ' ; cause I was in my old position as associate dean for almost seven years. So I' ; ve been in management leadership roles for over ten, twelve years now. But yeah it' ; s been interesting because I joined a brand new team and so I really had the chance to kind of see how I was gonna adapt myself to them and how they were gonna receive me. And you know, it' ; s funny, my first day I brought donuts and I said to them, ' ; cause this team right now doesn' ; t have a permanent space. They' ; re literally working in a temporary space right now. So my first thing was how do I provide them with a level of, you know, kind of stability and structure. So even in an absence of a physical, permanent location, they can kind of feel that stability. SS: Mm-hmm. JR: But I came in that first day and I was like, so I haven' ; t started a new job in a very long time. So I said, I just ask for your grace. But I' ; m as much as, as reasonable and appropriate, obviously it' ; s just about the human first. These are all human beings who are working in a job and if you don' ; t connect that piece and know what really matters to these people just in life, you' ; re kind of missing the mark. So my goal was, and I told people ' ; cause they wanted to meet with me, people outside my team wanted to meet with me very quickly to like talk about coaching and how I could collaborate. And I said, I want the first month to be me focusing on the team, getting to know the team, building those relationships. And so meeting with them individually and getting to know their strengths and kind of where there' ; s opportunities. But I, I' ; d say I' ; m very, I' ; m all about personal connections and relationships and being collaborative. But I' ; m also good about being, like, sometimes we just kind of have to do things and we can' ; t bring everyone into the fold, but I want to be as transparent as possible, communicate, provide, make sure people are in the loop. ' ; Cause the less transparency there is, people then start to kind of worry and, you know create a narrative themselves. And so, but also humor. I like to approach things with humor. But Yeah. SS: Well, sounds like you' ; re the right person for the job. < ; laughter> ; Um, I' ; d like to ask, how have you leveraged your networks and relationships to support student development and success? JR: Oh gosh. SS: < ; laughs> ; JR: You know, it' ; s-- so this talk I just gave on Tuesday, the Division of Student Affairs does, um, they just started this series called Conversations with Leaders. And they finally, they asked, they asked me to speak and I' ; m like, okay, because part of me is like, " ; You want me to talk? Oh, that' ; s fine!" ; So I talked a lot about this, but one of the benefits of my job, the job I had here when I first started with orientation: it' ; s such just by the nature of the job, so highly collaborative that, that set me up for how I have literally done everything else in every other position I have here on campus. So, it had me working with event planning, with catering, with parking facilities, with advising, with, you know, leadership to student life. Like I work with every area on campus. And so through that, and I' ; m asking people to do things when I don' ; t have any leadership or jurisdiction over them. And so you very quickly had to establish this relationship with people so you can-- ' ; cause all I would do in that job is ask people for favors. It' ; s just, " ; I need you to do this. Can you help with this?" ; And so, and I fast forward now, there' ; s one of the colleagues I' ; ve worked with, I met him my second day working, he works in advising and now I' ; m meeting with him about coaching and how to collaborate. And it' ; s just, we laugh now that I' ; m like, talk about full circle and even doing training on some technology that we' ; re gonna be implementing into the program. The person in IT [Information Technology], I worked with him when PeopleSoft was first coming on board. And so again, it' ; s like " ; It' ; s so fun to work with you again!" ; But, all that to say, it' ; s been so key. And I think what has been very validating is when I' ; ve come into this job, the, the reactions I' ; ve gotten from people saying, " ; I' ; m so glad it' ; s you and I can' ; t wait to work with you in this role." ; And that' ; s been really affirming and I feel like because of my relationships, I' ; ve been able to, you know, there' ; s credibility. I' ; m able to connect the coaches with people that they haven' ; t connected with before. And, you know, if they have a question, I' ; m like, " ; Let me just ask this person directly, like what the answer is." ; They' ; re like, " ; You can just do that?" ; I' ; m like, " ; Yeah, I just can chat whoever, or text whoever and vice versa." ; So what I shared on Tuesday at the session was relationships is literally how I' ; ve gotten everything done here on this campus. It' ; s, it' ; s been so, so important. So I don' ; t think I answered the question? SS: No, I love that. I love that. I' ; m so glad to see you [indistinguishable]. JR: It' ; s been, it' ; s very sweet. I' ; m like, " ; Thank you!" ; It is very, because especially it' ; s people that I' ; ve worked with forever and you know, and you just want people who are collaborative and willing to hear you out and you can laugh with. And I actually said to somebody the other day on the call, I said, " ; You don' ; t have to be diplomatic with me. Just tell me there' ; s clearly something there. So just like, tell me how you' ; re feeling so we can just deal with it." ; And I think they appreciated it because with some people you have to be very diplomatic and be very discreet in how you' ; re saying things. And I' ; m like, just, " ; I' ; ve been here long enough. Like, just tell me." ; SS: [Indistinguishable] So I' ; d like to ask, how do you approach building rapport with students and understanding their unique, needs? JR: Yeah. Um, so I' ; ve had the benefit, I mean, since I' ; ve started here to work directly with students. So in my orientation job, I supervised volunteers who are on orientation team. I supervise students who were paid staff. Like those were my direct reports. So I was directly supporting and working with students. I think very similar with how I just work with anyone. I-- it' ; s so hard to describe something that I feel like just kind of happens, but I try to feel people out. You know, again, I approach a lot of things with humor, but obviously if this setting is not appropriate right, it' ; s, you know, I' ; m able to kind of feel that out. I feel like I' ; m very intuitive. Like, I joke that my superpower is intuition because I can-- I can tell-- if I know someone, I can tell like when they walk in a room and be like, there' ; s something going on or what' ; s happening, and I' ; ll just kind of give a look and be like, you let me know what you need. Like, but I just, I stop and I make efforts. I get to know people and with students, that makes, that makes a difference. You know just being visible and being authentic. Providing, you know, sharing with-- with discretion of course, but like my own personal life and connections and here and there. Um, but you know, in my old-- in my previous position, I was working with students in some really difficult circumstances ' ; cause I was overseeing student conduct. I was overseeing students who were really in a difficult situation within their life. Whether it' ; s, they' ; ve had very something very difficult happen to them and they' ; re navigating it and how they' ; re acting may not be the most appropriate in that setting. And just, um, I' ; m really good about student[s] coming in and being like, " ; What is going on? Like, what' ; s, what' ; s happening?" ; And also good about being like, what we' ; re doing here isn' ; t working. So how do we, let' ; s figure it out. So through the years I' ; ve gotten very good at being direct, but in a supportive manner? Um, some, well, supervisor joked with me, she' ; s like, " ; I' ; ve never met somebody who could suspend a student, and in the same sentence, the student, thanks you." ; < ; laugh> ; It' ; s just, it' ; s treating somebody as a human being. ' ; Cause, even if you' ; re making a decision that' ; s difficult, you can still do it with compassion. And humor too. I love to be sarcastic with students, like, especially O team [Orientation Team]. ' ; Cause I still have a connection with the students who are on orientation team. ' ; Cause my previous position, I was still in the same office and I would, they' ; d be laying down on orientation day and I' ; d just be like, " ; What are you doing?" ; They' ; re like, " ; Oh, sorry Jennie!" ; And I' ; m like, " ; Come on," ; < ; laugh> ; " ; Get your, get yourself together. Don' ; t be laying down on the job." ; So. SS: All right. Um, finally we' ; re gonna get into the Cross-Cultural Center Questions. JR: I know this is like, this is getting us-- getting me warm. Okay. SS: I Really love that. Yeah. I love, like, you' ; re just a person people can trust, a conduit of stability. JR: Conduit of stability. Oh, that' ; s deep. Okay. SS: Could you, anyway, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? JR: Mm-hmm. What I remember about C3 is what we call it. Um, so when I first started, we had, and I imagine you' ; re interviewing Alexis Monte Virgin, SS: Um, I' ; m not sure, she' ; s not one I' ; m interviewing. JR: Yeah, he was the coordinator when I first started. Um, he' ; s like a president of a university now. It' ; s amazing. So he was, he was the coordinator. The, the interaction I had with C3 when I started-- because I oversaw orientation, the Student Life and Leadership Office at the time was this compacted space in, um, past known as Craven Hall. And so when I had on orientation days, we needed a place for Orientation Team to debrief the day. So we' ; d go up to C3. So that' ; s how, that' ; s what I remember it as. We' ; d go up to, we' ; d go to C, we' ; d be sitting on the floor. They had these big red couches, the red couches, the red chairs, and, it was small, but it was like, it was cozy. But yeah, we would just be having people sit on every surface possible and have our debriefing sessions there. And that' ; s kind of my initial like, connection and, memory of how I first interacted. SS: This is a really big follow up, but, how did it shift over time? And did you have any role in this change? JR: Um, how it shifted? So, pretty quickly after I started, probably within the first year-- and I think the plans had already been happening, was we were gonna be moving spaces. We were gonna be moving, offices to the first floor, no, to the third floor [of the Administration Building]. So I don' ; t know if you' ; re familiar or not- where Ace Scholars is now, where the Tukwut courtyard is? That' ; s where Student Life and Leadership used to be. So we were already, when I first started, kind of in this future planning, dream big mode of what can Student Life and Leadership look like. But at that time, C3 was under the purview of Student Life and Leadership. So figuring out where and how that space - because it was very important to have a designated space - not have it be interweaved into our office, but have a community building location for the Center. So, I am sure that I was part of conversations because we were doing like kind of physical planning of the office, figuring out where everything was gonna kind of be. Um, because I was overseeing orientation, the space back then it was, I had this massive cubicle-- Um and then around the corner through a door was where C3 was. So it was an office physically located like right off of the general Student Life and Leadership office. So, kind of talking through and brainstorming how we were gonna fit these red couches into that space. The space was kinda like a triangle. So doing the physical kind of puzzle pieces, you know, figuring out, um, you know, what to put on the walls and to create that space was definitely part of that conversation. So, but yeah I don' ; t remember the nuances, but I would imagine because it was physically located there, we were all part of that " ; What does this look like?" ; conversation. So, um, how it' ; s evolved since then? I mean, it was in that space. And then, if I remember correctly, I don' ; t know what happened first, but a leadership program was created within Student Life and Leadership. It' ; s called SLL [Student Life and Leadership]. And, the idea was to create a Tukwut leadership. Um, is it Tukwut Leadership Center? Yeah. I think I' ; m remembering this correctly. So what ended up happening, I think a space opened up in the Commons Building directly across from Commons 206, I think is the room. And so the Cross-Cultural Center moved up there and then the [TLC], that [Tukwut] Leadership [Center] space, um, kind of a space for leadership programs and student organization meetings, stuff like that, moved into that triangle space on the third floor. So the space when it was up there was-- I mean, it was massive. It was, I mean, comparatively speaking, I mean there was, there were windows, um, there was like a welcome desk. There were the couches again, I believe. We had at one point, I don' ; t know what the timeframe was, but we had painted this like collective mural where everybody had like, it was a, program that they had brought to campus with a muralist. And they pretty much gave us different pieces to draw and paint. And that was put together, I think it' ; s still up in the C3 here in the Student Union, I wanna say. But that was up in the space and it was just bigger and more open. And I wanna say it was up there until the Student Union opened, which I wasn' ; t in as much conversation about because at that time I had transitioned more into the Data Students Office-ish role. So I wasn' ; t gonna be under the same umbrella. But I remember the conversations about the physical space in the Student Union and, the offices and having a balcony and having programming space and all of that. And so you see this space now. I mean it' ; s just, it' ; s just beautiful. And it' ; s with the balcony. And we' ; ve held some retreats in there and separate kind of staff meeting stuff. And Floyd' ; s [Lai, Director of the CCC] great. He' ; s always willing to host people. Um, so it' ; s done a lot of trainings in there and stuff like that. So, that' ; s kind of how the physical space has evolved. It' ; s gone a long way from this sized office. SS: Thank you for that. JR: Yeah. SS: So many permutations. I love the red couches. JR: The red couches. I mean, that' ; s the thing. And you probably will hear a consistent thing is this thread, the red couches is what C3 was. Like, that is what was, you know, the signature furniture there. SS: Yeah. [Indistinguishable] JR: Oh, I' ; m sure you did. SS: Anyways, um, I knew that you were temporary temporal, sorry. Temporarily responsible for the Cross-Cultural Center during a transition between associate directors. Let me ask you, what led you to that position? JR: < ; laughs> ; SS: How' ; d that Happen? JR: I don' ; t know. You know, I think, when you' ; re in a-- when you' ; re leading a department right? And somebody leaves, you' ; re kind of like, okay, who could kind of pick things up and keep them moving while we' ; re doing a search, right? I think the reason I was kind of a natural person to jump into that position and I felt very grateful to do it, was because with my work with New Student Programs and Orientation, I had collaborated with, with Sara Sheik, who remains one of my dearest friends, we had collaborated on the creation of a peer mentoring program. So it was a orientation, New Student Programs and Cross-Cultural Center, um, Multicultural Programs, collaborative program. Where we focused on pairing up first-year students from underserved, underrepresented populations. So really it was, I forget the criteria but, primarily students of color, first gen[eration] students who weren' ; t part of other specialized programs, which now I think about it, I' ; m like, that' ; s funny. That' ; s the population I' ; m working with again. So, because we had worked so closely on that and had, we' ; re really working with the staff on creating that program, and we interviewed and hired the mentors and we onboarded the mentees and all of that stuff. I think when Sara ended up leaving, I was a natural kind of-- ' ; Cause I had already been working with the, with the directors and coordinators of the other, of the other centers. I had already been working with the staff in C3 on this program. So, it was kind of a natural, you know, " ; Can you just help with this for a little bit?" ; And so that way we, you know, can have some consistency? Um, so it was a fun- SS: Yeah, I tried to find how long you were in that position. I couldn' ; t find it. How Long? JR: It was about a semest- I' ; d say it was about a semester, if not an entire semester. It was a couple of months in the spring semester of-- oh gosh, I don' ; t know what year it was. [20]10, [20]11, [20]12, around that time. Yeah, because it was before- ' ; cause I moved into the Interim Assistant Dean of Students position in January, 2013. So I would say it was probably nine [2009] or [20]10 possibly, but it was only a couple months while we worked on, hiring and getting Floyd. So. SS: Perfect. I don' ; t wanna get too sidetracked but, I' ; d like, if you' ; re willing, I' ; d like you to tell me about your friendship with Sara [Sheikh]. How is she? JR: God. Is this what she started crying about when she was asking about relationships? SS: I' ; m not sure. < ; laughs> ; JR: Oh gosh, Sara, what a special human. Um, she texted me earlier. She' ; s like, how was your interview? I' ; m like, it' ; s at three. So I' ; ll tell her that you all asked about her. Um, I remember interviewing her because when we would bring candidates on for our department, you know, we' ; d all have a chance to meet all the candidates and whatnot. She first off, she was not, how do? This is the diplomatic part of me. She was not allowed to reach her fullest potential here. Her skills and her talents were not as tapped as they possibly could have been here. She left before she should have. Um, but opportunities arose and she had to take it. But she is, we are so incredibly different, but she is a quiet, calm, intentional, just peaceful human being. Everything she does is with intention and purpose. And she' ; s one of those people in my life, and I tell her all the time, and it' ; s now her and her wife because they' ; re, they' ; re like cup filling people like you, you hang out with them, you spend time with them. And I' ; m like, okay, my soul, has been refilled. Um, not to get into politics, but this is, this is related the day of the, the day after the 2016 election, there were various emotions. And she happened to be on campus that day. She, Sara was here, this was years after she' ; d gone, but she happened to be bringing a group of students here to campus. And I told her, I said, you are the perfect and only person I would' ; ve wanted to interact with on this day. Because she' ; s so good at just like being in a space with and just allowing space and asking intentional questions. But-- and then her laugh is just so unique. Like when you get her laughing, it' ; s just like, there' ; s no laugh like it. Um, but she just, the students so highly respected her, and everything that she touched here, again she did with intention and purpose. And she makes everyone feel like literally you' ; re the only person in the room. She has nothing else to distract her. It' ; s a very intentional, like, you' ; re hearing it a, a pattern like purposeful and intentional. She' ; s just a good, good person. So, I remember, ' ; cause I tend to talk a lot and, um, and this isn' ; t fair ' ; cause you' ; re asking me to talk, so there' ; s no, there' ; s no judgment here. But I remember we were at a, we were doing a staff retreat and I had to get used to that. she would process. So, you know, somebody would ask a question and a prompt, and we had to give space for Sara because Sara needed time to kind of put all of the thoughts together and process and whatnot. And so, I' ; ve always taken that with me. But, we' ; ve, you know, she was at my wedding. I was at her wedding. She met my son when he was, you know just after he was born. I' ; ve had the privilege to, I was there the day that, they officially adopted their son. I was taking pictures and just, just one of those people, you know? Just one of those people in your life that I' ; m grateful for our relationship here. And just the connection and it, I, it' ; s one of those things where I' ; m like, thank you for allowing me to stay in your life. Because there' ; s days where I' ; m like, what do I bring to you? < ; laughs> ; Because she' ; s just so fantastic. But she would just kind of, she would brush that off and be like you' ; re nuts. So she' ; s special. SS: I love that. That' ; s incredibly great [indistinguishable]. That' ; s amazing. I know we' ; re in the little sidetrack here, but- JR: No, it' ; s fine. it' ; s all connected. SS: It' ; s all oral history, its all about people, so. JR: It Is. SS: Back to the Cross-Cultural Center. Could you tell me about a favorite memory? Or not even a favorite, just a memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center? JR: Hmm. < ; laugh> ; . SS: This is a little stumped [one]. JR: No, it' ; s not stumped. I just, there' ; s certain things that it' ; s like, I just immediately remember and I' ; m like, it doesn' ; t have to be super deep, right? SS: Mm-hmm. JR: I remember there was a period of time, I don' ; t know, I think it was before Sara left, but, um, there were ti-- I don' ; t know if she was out, but, we needed to have physical presence in the Center. And so each of the SLL staff would sign up for shifts to sit at the front desk of the center. And, I remember, I love NSYNC. It' ; s a boy band. Yeah. And I remember I was listening to Pandora at the time, it was Pandora. And I told them, I was up there, I had like a morning shift and I said, " ; If I am here at my shift, you are hearing NSYNC and boy bands." ; And it just became a thing. They' ; re like, " ; Oh, Jennie' ; s here." ; And I would just play that music. And, it was, that' ; s the first thing that kind of came to mind. It was just kind of funny. They were like, " ; Oh God, Jenny' ; s on shift." ; But it was cool because it got us physically out of our own offices and I looked forward to that, you know, physical, that physical location change. But then to interact with students in different ways. Um, God, there' ; s a lot of memories. I met a student, and I won' ; t say his name for obvious reasons you' ; ll learn shortly, but I first met him in C3 and I remember him ' ; cause he would walk in and he was always in military gear, but like not like he, he was like within the military, he was always just wearing like military-grade-- SS: Camo? JR: Yeah. He had like a, this military-grade backpack, like, the combat boots and just, and he was just the sweetest, kindest person. And I, that' ; s he, that was the first time I met him was in the C3. And he would come in there all the time and that' ; s where he would hang out and we would talk about life. And he quickly disclosed to me that he had dealt with some significant mental health challenges. And just, my brother has also dealt with some stuff and so he and I were connecting on that and just talking about life and making those connections. And I remembered he had gone away for a bit and then he had returned and he was, he was having some challenges as only a couple years ago. Unfortunately he passed away last year. But I always remember just that connection I had with him. And I realized, you know, a lot of other people on campus had that connection with him. He was just, he was just this unique soul. He was like an old soul. He dealt with so much adversity with mental and physical health, but he just always came with just a presence of kindness and just sh- like sheer gratitude. And when I-- when I changed, when I moved outta my office a couple weeks ago, ' ; cause I was in that office for nine years. One of the things I was, I was cleaning this stuff out and I found a thank you card from him. And I was like, wow, what a gift. And he had, it was after I was out of the role within relation to [C3], but it' ; s a couple years ago when I helped him with some stuff and it just said, " ; Thank you for helping me in one of the difficult times in my life." ; and I was just like, God, what a gift you just gave me. So, um, I don' ; t know if I would' ; ve had the chance to meet him had I not been in that, you know, in that physical space because I know that was a space of safety for him, which was I know the case for a lot of students, so. SS: Wow. JR: [Mm-hmm] < ; laugh> ; . SS: Sorry about that. JR: I know it' ; s tough and yeah. Yeah. SS: [indistinguishable] It' ; s remembering NSYNC Radio, at least. < ; laugh> ; JR: NSYNC Radio. But I think even with him, I still smile, you know, and um, yeah, ' ; cause again, he just exuded gratitude and it, um, yeah. So mm-hmm. SS: Well on a lighter note! Uh. JR: < ; laugh> ; , I know, sorry take these down. SS: No, no, no. It' ; s perfect. It' ; s perfect. I know you only worked there for a semester, but how might have your work at the Cross-Cultural Center helped you develop as a professional? JR: Massively. I mean, you know, as a, as a White woman, straight CIS woman, I bring privilege with me and I always am trying to learn and understand that what my physical presence may bring depending on the space and I' ; m at right? And, the majority of the students who, who hung out in that space were, were students of color, primarily students who were of Asian Pacific Islander descent. But, it was something for me to be able to-- when I first got asked to kind of fill in the role, part of me was like I didn' ; t want my own identity to be a detriment to their development. But I realize now me even just knowing that I think < ; laughs> ; makes a difference. That I' ; m aware of how my identity impacts those around me. But there were some experiences that came up that I remember we were doing, we were doing some activities-- Oh we were doing a, an event and it was around, um, Judaism, and I don' ; t remember what the content of the workshop was, but Hillel, which is still an active organization for serving and supporting Jewish students, but obviously non-Jewish students can be involved. There was some concern about us offering this workshop and possibly providing false information. And it was one of those things that in the moment you can get very defensive, right? You can be like, no, you know, we' ; re not, we' ; re not trying to do anything to whatever. But what it had me do was, you need to stop for a second and be-- again, the intentionality. It really taught me just you to think of anyone who could be potentially impacted, but also leveraging the voices that you have and collaborate and pull them in. Um, ' ; cause why wouldn' ; t have we have collaborated with folks on campus who live that on, on a daily basis and could provide some additional you know, but I was advising students at this time and the student was just doing what he was told. He was creating these workshops kind of in a vacuum. But it was a really good lesson to, again, do things as intentionally as possible. Even if it means you have to move the workshop a few weeks later, if it means we' ; re doing it the right way, let' ; s do that. So that was a really good lesson and I think it ended up being fine. We ended up collaborating with them. Um, and then just--Trying to think. I mean, just working with all different types of people and interacting with students I probably normally wouldn' ; t have just because they weren' ; t involved in Orientation Team. Like this, this particular pocket of students who worked as student assistants, within all the other centers because there was kind of like this collective team they had of- at the time the Women' ; s Center, the Pride Center, and the Cross-Cultural Center, those three centers ; our staffs would get together on a frequent basis. And there' ; s folks from other staffs that I have connected with that I' ; m still in, contact with that I probably would never have interacted with. And to be honest, they probably would never have even-- based on who I am and how I present and probably would never have even interacted with me. And so, it was a great opportunity to kind of make those connections. But, um, I learned some more things just about program planning. We, we planned some pretty big events and just again, how to honor history and culture and doing it in a meaningful manner while advising students who just wanna get things done. And it' ; s like, how do you balance that? So that was, um, that was a good experience. SS: Yeah. That' ; s great. Um, making connections. using your voices. Moving on, could you describe, and this doesn' ; t have to be with the Cross-Cultural Center ' ; cause I know you worked a pretty short time over there. Could you describe a project or initiative you with that you are particularly proud of, or were a part of necessarily? JR: Hmm. Geez, just so many SS: < ; laughs> ; JR: I think I can discuss the peer mentoring program. Although it was short-lived, I think for what it was. It' ; s one of those programs that no matter how good of a program you have, if you don' ; t have the resources to continue it, you can only do so much. And so-- but it was, it was really cool because it was kind of a brainchild of Sara and then she came to me and said, " ; You work with new students, can we just do this connection?" ; And so we really got a chance to dig into the benefits of peer mentoring and we kind of, we created it really from the ground up. We recruited current students to be peer mentors, created that training for them. And because of my work with O-Team [Orientation Team], who is solely volunteers, you know, I had a training with them, a weekly training with them on, in the spring semester, and then we had retreats. And so I was able to really bring that component. Um, and then what Sara brought was really the, the pieces of how-- why we' ; re serving this particular population because there is an equity gap that our white students are persisting at a higher rate and graduating at a higher rate than our students of color. So, and then there was research that showed that peer mentoring specifically helps to close-- is one of the most beneficial components that a student could have to have a peer to peer connection. So it was really fun to work with her on that and really create the curriculum, create the, the criteria for the mentors. And then I remember we had spreadsheets and we were divvying up the, the caseloads of like who, or not the caseloads-- of like who would be matched with certain mentors and stuff like that. Um, and so that was really fun. And then once Sara left and Floyd came on, um, I don' ; t think it was a while, but he and I had the idea to do like an overnight retreat with this program. So what we did was we had them all come together. So we' ; ve had the mentors and the mentees, this is before school even started, had them on a bus. We drove up to Julian [California] and we did kind of team-building activities. And it was really-- I remember we had this, we wanted to do a ropes course and we had, there' ; s a ropes course at this camp. And I remember Floyd and I were brought in probably three days before the retreat. And our boss at the time said, we can' ; t spend the money on this. And we' ; re like, " ; What are we supposed to do?" ; So then he and I just like hunkered down and created like our own like, internal team-building exercises, but we' ; re like, " ; What the hell are we gonna do?" ; But we figured it out. What' ; s funny now is I think it was that year, one of the mentees is now on my coaching staff. SS: < ; laughs> ; . JR: So I' ; ve known him forever and it' ; s really cool. And then funny enough we, well it' ; s not funny but, we had to buy a new car this past weekend, track me here-- and I, we go to San Diego County Credit Union because that, we had literally just paid our car off on Thursday and that' ; s when our car died. So we went back to San Diego County Credit Union. Said we wanted to get a loan with you again. And as we' ; re meeting with this loan officer, she' ; s like, where do you work? I told her, she' ; s like, " ; I knew you look familiar!" ; And my husband' ; s always like, " ; I swear to God, she knows people everywhere." ; And she said, " ; I was part of the peer mentoring program" ; and I remembered her ' ; cause she was assigned to, I would say was our best mentor ' ; cause some of our mentors left a lot to be des-- like, " ; Can you talk? Can you touch base with your students?" ; But this one -- and her last name was Ruiz as well -- and so we connected on that, but it was so cool to see this student who had been in the peer mentoring program and just being like, " ; I remember you!" ; And it was a nice little reunion. Um, but I thought it was a really cool framework to create. Um, unfortunately the resources just weren' ; t able to keep it going. So. SS: Yeah. That' ; s cool that you saw your, your one mentor--[indistinguishable] JR: It was so funny that, " ; I know you look familiar!" ; When I said I worked at campus, it was funny. SS: Yea I Know plenty of people working in the university space currently working with limited resources. Yeah, it' ; s definitely challenging. JR: It is. Especially when it' ; s such meaningful work like that. I mean, it' ; s literally to support, but now I' ; m in a space again to be able to do that same kind of work, which is exciting. SS: Mm-hmm. What is the significance of having a space that champions underrepresented students? JR: Um, I mean so much. And with underrepresented students, obviously that' ; s such a large umbrella, right? And then every group and, and community that makes up that term needs different things and there' ; s an intersectionality and all that and it can-- but you know what it really comes down to, it' ; s about equity, right? And it' ; s interesting having conversations with people who don' ; t quite get it and there' ; s people who make comments sometimes it' ; s like, " ; What about a space for us?" ; And I' ; m like, do you understand that any-- I can go somewhere and see someone who looks like me and understands my experience. I mean, generally speaking, pretty easily, if you have a student who comes to this campus and does not see anyone who looks like them during the day, does not have a faculty member teaching them who is from the same culture or community, to be able to have a space that a student knows they can go to. To have an experience that just physical and mental and emotional safety on a daily basis, for them to do homework and define that community will only help them to be better in all aspects of their life. That' ; s why programs like EOP [Educational Opportunity Program] and ACE Scholars and those programs exist because they' ; re-- every student should have access to the same level of services, right? First and foremost. But, if you look at certain populations and certain areas where students are from, they then need that much more support to get them to the same place that more majority populations are. So I think providing spaces like this is one step in providing that, that equity. Um, because I can imagine a student coming here and I' ; ve never really experienced it, but being like, " ; I don' ; t see myself here." ; They' ; re not gonna feel an emotional connection to the campus. They' ; re not gonna feel like going to class because why would they care? I mean, there' ; s some students who inherently they just have this intrinsic motivation and they' ; ll go to school and it' ; s fine. But you wanna have that, that community and sense of belonging. That' ; ll just make it that much more just robust of an experience for them. And the community pieces is massive. So spaces like this, if done well, and intentionally and has good leadership and the resources it needs. Because the thing is these centers-- and people joke a lot of times are placed in the basements of buildings, they' ; re placed in inaccessible areas that people don' ; t necessarily know about. If you do it well and put ' ; em in high traffic areas like the USU [University Student Union], have staffing and resources to really support those students, then it goes well. But just historically spaces like that are just under-resourced and which is an issue. So. SS: Yeah. Um, I guess in that same sort of area of, doing it right. Are there any aspects of your time at the Cross-Cultural Center that you would' ; ve approached differently if given the chance? JR: Mm. I, when I came in, because again, there was this like conglomerate of the three spaces. I would, and it was a really short period of time, but I got kind of sucked into their drama < ; laughs> ; , and I wish I would' ; ve come in and I don' ; t know if I had fully found my voice yet like if I, knowing what I know now about things and haven' ; t gone through when I' ; ve gone through now, I feel like I would be able to go in and be able to really help the students to be very-- To, you know to collaborate, but not necessarily be dependent on, I think, I wanted to collaborate with these other folks but I think there was almost a sense of like I had to defer to what they wanted kind of thing. And so probably it would be fun to go back in there now knowing what I know now and see how things would be different. But, I don' ; t know. I think that the state of where I was at the time, you learn based on where you' ; re at in life. And I got lessons, from it. I, um, there were-- I worked with my first student who I was aware of being undocumented at the time and just learning about that process and learning about that impact for her and just, I mean we literally, no one knew but she would, she would submit kind of a fake time sheet every month just to have this sense of normalcy and that nobody would question. And just, that was kind of my first, kind of opportunity to, to work with students experiencing those challenges. So. I can' ; t think of anything glaring. I was still I think pretty early and young in my profession. Um, so, there' ; s still days where I' ; m like, " ; You wanted me to be in there?" ; But, it worked out. But I think those are the things I can, I can think of. SS: That' ; s good. JR: Yeah. SS: More experience. JR: More experience. It' ; s all, it' ; s all experience. Yes. SS: Well, as we' ; re wrapping-- winding down, I know you mentioned before that a lot of people that would go to the Cross-Cultural Center were um-- JR: Asian Pacific Islander. SS: Oh yeah. Asian Pacific Islanders. JR: < ; laughs> ; Yes. SS: I, a lot of questions are raised around like these cultural centers, like the Black Student Center and, the Latinx Center and stuff like that. And should there be an Asian student center? Should there be a white student center? What' ; s your response to that? JR: < ; laughs> ; That' ; s my response. < ; laughs> ; Um, I mean, I think I mentioned it before about the purpose of these spaces. Everyone, every student should have access to support and resources on our campus. I do not think inherently based on the setup of society, students at particular demographics are lacking spaces where they see others like them. SS: [Mm-hmm.] JR: Like I said, things need to be, do, done well. You need to have the staffing. I think it' ; s always going to be met with some dissonance because there' ; s gonna always be people who just don' ; t get it. But the people who are the ones traditionally, and I know there' ; s people who may identify as the same within that center and say, I don' ; t think we should have, you know, separation or whatnot. But it depends where people are at on their identity development. And when you kind of go through identity development, you get to the point where you' ; re comfortable enough in your space and your skin and your whatever to understand that everyone else is in a different space and that' ; s okay. And that some students may be okay with it and some students may really need that space to be successful. And again, if having a Black Student Center allows one black man who goes to school here to have a physical space that he can go to feel safe, then I think that' ; s been successful because otherwise where would he find that here? Right. I think the people who ask those questions about, why don' ; t we have this? Why don' ; t we have this? And it' ; s like, I don' ; t-- there' ; s gonna always be people who ask those questions and they don' ; t have an answer for it. They don' ; t have anything to kind of back up, you know, you ask the question of, " ; Why do you think we need that space?" ; And they don' ; t have any, you know, there' ; s no research to back up the answers that they' ; re hoping to get. It' ; s just, they' ; re there-- The questions are just being asked, I think to kind of stir things up. But again, the caveat is: you don' ; t wanna just do it to do it to check off boxes. You need to do it as intentionally as possible. And I' ; m far from being an expert on how to implement that. But if you don' ; t have the resources and don' ; t have the institutional support, you' ; re only gonna be, you' ; re set up to fail. SS: Mm-hmm. Perfect. Great. Um, yeah, I like that answer. If it helps. It' ; s worth it. JR: Yep. Mm-hmm. SS: To conclude connecting to that question, uh, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces? JR: I would imagine, I' ; ll say Floyd specifically ' ; cause he has been the longest-tenured, um, director in there now. [Floyd] is probably been asked how he' ; s gonna be-- What is the Cross-Cultural Center? How does the Cross-Cultural Center kind of stand apart from the other identity centers? I think with the Cross-Cultural Center, although other centers talk about intersectionality and you know, and that sort of thing, I think what the Cross-Cultural Center can really focus on is really that multiculturalism, how all the different identities intersect and kind of can help to facilitate those conversations and understandings and that sort of thing. I would imagine there' ; s been conversations about-- do we have a space for, you know, our APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American] students? Because that tends to be the space that, that population tends to spend time. I think, there were conversations way back in the day where, ' ; cause they' ; re Kamalayan Alliance, I don' ; t know if it' ; s a really big organization now, but Kamalayan Alliance was a massive student organization back in the day, and that was primarily the students who made up the space in the center and some people had issues with it. It' ; s kind of like but this is not supposed to be just for Filipino students, but it' ; s like, who defines that? You know? It depends on who has a connection here and who feels connected. So, I would imagine-- I know there' ; s some campuses who have, I mean, tons of different affinity spaces and identity centers. And I' ; m sure there' ; s gonna be conversation about what, what is C3' ; s role in that? Um, I don' ; t know the answer I' ; m not privy to those conversations, but I' ; m sure the questions have come up of what is the space for this type of physical and identity space in the midst of adding all these different, identity spaces? Other campuses do it. It' ; s just, I' ; m sure there' ; s a lot of conversations about what is the vision and mission and kind of, where' ; s it gonna go, which can be exciting. Um, but I' ; m sure there' ; s also some pressure to be like, who are we? What is our, what is our mission here on campus? But, um, the current leadership can figure it out. He' ; s [Floyd Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center] good. He' ; s good. SS: Yea, he is good. JR: He is good. SR: Anyways, thank you so much for coming here and-- JR: This was Fun. < ; laughs> ; . I don' ; t know what I expected, But yeah. SS: Anyway, I' ; m gonna end the recording. JR: Okay. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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Title
A name given to the resource
Ruiz, Jennie. Interview April 7, 2023
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history interview of Jennie Ruiz for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project on April 7, 2023. Biographical information about Jennie, how she started working for California State University San Marcos, her leadership and networking skills. Jennie’s friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu and its impact on her. Her experience running the Cross-Cultural Center, and her thoughts about its role at CSU San Marcos.
Identifier
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SC027-029
Subject
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California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
Education, Higher
Human rights
Student success
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-04-07
Format
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video
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Jennie Ruiz
Type
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Moving image
Creator
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Jennie Ruiz
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Seth Stanley
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
San Marcos (Calif.)
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
Women's experience