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Oral Histories
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Judith Downie
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Rich Link
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LinkRich_BixbyMarianne_LortonGreg_DownieJudith_2017-07-09.xml
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5.4 Link, Rich, Mary Anne Bixby, and Greg Lorton. Interview July 9, 2017. SC027-054 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Home brewing -- California -- San Diego County Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity (San Diego, Calif.) Rich Link Mary Anne Bixby Greg Lorton Judith Downie mp3 1.0:|11(14)|23(17)|36(13)|61(3)|79(10)|91(9)|104(2)|122(2)|136(14)|155(8)|170(5)|191(4)|218(5)|232(15)|246(15)|258(12)|273(2)|286(13)|303(18)|320(9)|334(13)|365(2)|386(5)|399(7)|416(3)|440(12)|464(2)|492(3)|511(16)|543(14)|575(11)|602(6)|626(11)|650(8)|674(4)|697(10)|721(7)|738(7)|762(13)|779(7)|798(6)|814(11)|824(10)|851(13)|877(11)|903(15)|925(6)|943(9)|971(12)|996(8)|1014(12)|1041(7)|1074(4)|1086(12)|1108(15)|1128(4)|1145(2)|1161(14)|1188(2)|1204(14)|1215(16)|1233(10)|1253(8)|1276(16)|1294(4)|1306(7)|1343(10)|1371(5)|1400(17)|1437(2)|1456(3)|1486(11)|1514(10)|1531(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/be8d74a35bca81c3d4728150a1225ccc.mp3 Other audio English Rich Link, Mary Anne Bixby and Greg Lorton are all early members of Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity (QUAFF), a San Diego area homebrewing group.
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 ; In this interview, Link, Bixby, and Lorton discuss their introduction to craft beer, early home brewing experiences, QUAFF, various local breweries, mead, and womens’ participation in homebrewing. None have worked in the industry professionally, but all are certified beer judges and Lorton and Bixby also judge mead competitions.
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 ; Link wrote for the Celebrator Beer News magazine on the Southern California beer scene and his experiences visiting European breweries. He served several terms as QUAFF President. He is a certified beer judge.
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 ; Lorton served as QUAFF Newsletter editor and President. (He has provided a separate oral history.)
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 ; Bixby, with her late husband, Horace, switched from wine making to beer making. She belonged to the SDSS (San Diego Suds Sorority) which was a women-only subgroup of QUAFF.
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 ; Recording was made on the front exterior patio of Burning Beard Brewery in El Cajon ; there are periods of traffic noise which interfered with recording. Judith Downie: Okay. It's July 9th, 2017. This is Judith Downie interviewer, with Rich Link and Mary Anne Bixby and Greg Lorton, all QUAFF members, former officials of QUAFF, for oral history about their experiences with homebrewing and QUAFF (Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity home brewers club.). It should be able to pick up everybody. So basically, you know, you can kind of look at those questions I gave you. You can start talking maybe from, how did you start homebrewing? What got you interested? Rich Link: Well, I liked beer. And I saw something on TV one day and I saw something in a liquor store and it had a recipe and I said, “You can actually make beer at home?” And then I just looked in the yellow pages and there was Wine Art (supply shop) at the time over here on Fletcher Parkway (El Cajon). And, uh, that was in 1980 as I recall it. And at that time, homebrewers essentially made a five-gallon batch with a can of malt and four pounds of corn sugar, holding back a cup of corn sugar for bottling. For the bottling. And it was okay. It was as actually better than, you know, the mass-produced beers here in the United States ‘cause you know, we just couldn't take that stuff anymore. 90% of what I would drink would come from England and Germany. And at that time those were really good beers. Downie: And where were you finding these beers? Link: Yeah, in liquor stores. Yeah. Like that time, I think we had like Liquor Barn and some of the little hole-in-the-walls would have some good imports, but you know, it was like some beers were like $10, $12 a six pack and that was pretty expensive. You could make about two and a half cases of beer for about $10 or $15., seems like. Yeah. You know, I remember my first batch very, very clearly. It was a Pale Ale and it got all funked up with the yeast and it was cidery and it's like, “Okay, but you know, there's still something behind there that tastes really good.” It actually had good malt flavor and some hop flavor. Had no idea what the hops were because we just bought a bag that said ‘boiling hops’ and another one that said ‘finishing hops’. (Laughter.) Greg Lorton: But you made it. Link: Yeah. And it was cool. And I remember when the fermentation took off and you'd see the head on the beer. It's like, “Wow, that's pretty cool.” Smelled amazing. Bottling sure was a pain in the butt. Mary Anne Bixby: It always is. Lorton: Yeah. That's the one thing that pushes me towards Rich and uh, yeah. Mary Anne, what about you and Bix (Horace Bixby)? Bixby: Well, my first experience with home brewed beer was in college and it wasn't my own, it was friends' and the guys had made this beer that they had in mason jars. It was all cloudy. so, it was very yeasty. That part I remember very well and it was awful. It was awful. I think all I could say was give me a glass of wine. Lorton: Were you a, you were a chemistry major? Bixby: At one time. Lorton: Okay. At Purdue? Bixby: At Purdue. Lorton: Okay. Bixby: But, when I got married, we were winemakers and we started out with Wine Art in Chicago and they had these plans where you could make four wines and they had the classes and… Wine Art at that time was, like early seventies, not into beer that much. They had some cans of malt on the shelf, but nowhere near what we have available now with yeasts and the hops and so on. So Bix and I were making wine and he did try beer once but it started exploding in the basement. So I think we dumped most of it out. Link: I can’t tell you how many times I've heard that story about exploding beers. “Oh yeah. My uncle used to make beer. It used to explode.” Man, I never had one explode. Lorton: Yeah, I would wake up in the morning, go out in the garage and “Hmm. Smells like malt.” Bixby: Oh oh. Lorton: You look at the shelf and there's stuff dripping down, a wet spot with bottles there and there's one bottle that looks a little shorter than the others. And yeah, it blew apart and the top sank down. Yeah, I had. And it wasn't until, you know, I never had that with an extract brew. But once I started all grain brewing… Lorton: I never had a bad extract brew. I never had great extract brew. But once I went to all grain, I had some really good ones. Some pretty bad ones. (Laughter.) So now when was this all this wine making stuff? Bixby: Well, in the 70s and then we moved here to California in ‘75 and we started with the Wine Art again with making wine with their program. And then all this stuff started appearing on the shelves and Bix got interested in the beer, and before you know it, he was making beer and also we joined QUAFF. And that went that direction totally. I think we only made a few wines after that ; it was all beer. Downie: So, my understanding is that Audrey Eckblom and Owen were kind of the nucleus of the startup QUAFF. But I have not been able to reach Audrey and I know she's in Nevada and I tried to call her and I've tried writing her and don't get a response. So, what do you remember about beer in Wine Crafts? I know she took it over when Wine Crafts decided to close the location and she became Beer and Wine Crafts. But you know anything about her history as a brewer or anything like that? Lorton: Yeah, I moved down here in 1988 and I was living in Carlsbad, but that was the only place to go. And they opened a second shop in San Marcos. Probably in the, I'm thinking, uh, mid-nineties… Link: Mid-nineties, something like that, 1995. Lorton: Yeah, it was you know, I can show you exactly where it is in San Marcos. Link: I remember it. Lorton: But I mean that was a lot closer for me. Yeah. It was near Bent Avenue. Bixby: Well before Audrey and Owen had the place, there was, it was owned by somebody named Peter, I think it was Peter, his name. And he I guess got out of the business, I don't know, cause then it was Audrey and Owen and she was pretty, she was really very helpful. Link: She used to make wine. She was actually an employee there. And I remember the girl that was one of the owners, she had an accent. I don't remember her name, but it was shortly after that that they, Owen and Audrey bought the place from her. Now Owen was actually a beer judge. He, he knew beer. Bixby: I didn’t know that. Link: Yeah. Now, I don't know about any accreditation. It certainly wasn't with the AHA (American Homebrewers Association), but, he was labeled a beer judge. So yeah. I was a pretty good beer judge myself from college days. Downie: Well, accreditation would have been maybe a little bit later because it was Carter's era that, even home brewing was legal again. So, you really couldn't probably do accredited judging until, you know, you'd had a few years being legal again. Link: I don't remember when the AHA started, but I think the legalization was in ‘79. Yeah. And that's when the bill by Alan Cranston. Yeah. Downie: He signed it and Carter signed it in ‘78. Link: The US bill started by a Senator in Wisconsin. Downie: And then everything winds up having to come down to state level and then county level and city level. Lorton: But California was at the forefront of that kind of stuff. So. Yeah. Downie: And so Rich, you were telling Greg that you were the third QUAFF president who was president number one and number two? Link: So, president number one was Greg Schwaller and so now I wasn't there. So a lot of what I get is from Bob Whritner. Lorton: And I have an email from Greg Schwaller going the fact that your part of that where he was, you know, kind of you're remembering what the original, he was the one who came up with the name of QUAFF. Bixby: Interesting. Lorton: And he was citing a verse from Poe, Edgar Allen Poe as the source. And what they were doing is they were thinking, you know, all, most homebrew clubs have some clever pun-related acronym. And, you know, they felt that, well, QUAFF is, let's think of something that QUAFF sounds like a beer-drinking term. So, let's come up with some words that fit that. So that's where Quality Ale Fermentation Fraternity came from. Unfortunately, Bob gave me some stuff that documented all of that. It was like the originals. I gave it to Peter (Zien) and I'm not sure if it still exists. I meant to ask Peter when I last saw him, but you know, it actually has the legal yellow pad where it has the names of the… Downie: Is this is Peter Zien? Bixby: Oh, you need to ask him. Lorton: Yeah. I have to ask Peter. Yeah. Peter Zien, (several people talking) you know, I meant to ask him. Judith and I talked with Peter a couple of weeks ago and I forgot then I (inaudible). Peter's birthday party, I forgot. Link: That was a busy day. Lorton: Yeah. And I'm hoping they still have it. Downie: Yeah, I've still got the oral history to arrange with Peter and Vicky, so I'll put that on my list to ask as well. Lorton: Yeah, I guess Greg Schwaller now, lives, I think at Three Rivers, which is near Sequoia. At least that was where he was I think 2010 or so. Link: Okay. Bixby: Gosh, that's a long time ago, yeah. Link: I thought Bob, last I talked with Bob, he thought he was up Montana or Wyoming or something like that, but who knows. Lorton: Yeah, I can send you the email that has that. Downie: That would be lovely, yeah, that'd be a real touchstone for QUAFF’s history. Lorton: It would because I, I never met him…met Greg. Bob is, Rich and Bob or someone Bixby: Who was after you? Link: After me? Skip (Virgilio). Lorton: Who was before you? Link: Paul Wesley (second QUAFF president). So I remember when QUAFF was starting because Owen tried to get me to go to the meetings. At that time, I wasn't really interested in, it wasn't all that interested in joining or being part of things. So… Bixby: A loner type, huh. Link: Well yeah. But I do remember him telling me, you know, we're having a meeting down at, it was Old Columbia (Karl Strauss brewery). That's what everyone called it back then. And it was before Chris (Cramer) really wanted to stress the Karl Strauss part of it. And then I still didn't want to go. I mean, their beer wasn't all that great. Why would I want to go all the way downtown? Downie: How much was gas a gallon then? Link: Yeah, yeah, 30 cents. But then, you know, like I said, Paul Wesley followed Greg. And Paul lived out here in Lakeside, and then Owen and Audrey kept working on me and working on me. And then finally they convinced me to go to a meeting at Callahan's (Pub & ; Brewery). At the original Callahan's, this was in 1990. Bixby: That's your first time you went? Link: Uh-huh. And, you know, after like two to three meetings, you know, Paul pretty much recruited me to take over. In those days you needed someone, you know. And so, he kind of felt that I was trustworthy and knew some things. But the club at that time was, I mean we had it from, most of the guys were, like I talked about earlier, the extract corn sugar brewers who are really interested in making liquid alcohol for as cheap as they could make it. Link: And cheap was like the number one priority, truly. And I'm not trying to just make fun of these guys, but that was it. Yeah. They can make 10 cent pints of beer, man, they were in heaven. But we also had guys like Vinnie Cilurzo, and John Thomas and Bob Whritner and Greg Schwaller, some of the guys who really knew what they were doing, you know. So that was pretty cool. And we'd have a little corner and bring in beers and taste them and give remarks and stuff. And that was all pretty cool. But there was a great deal of the club at the time that was not interested in going beyond, you know, the kit type mentality. And I was. In fact most of the guys had never even heard of the AHA. That was kind of my goal is get involved with the AHA more. Link: And that was when we had our first club-only competition and it was a pale ale and Whritner, Bob Whritner, was our representative and he got a second place on the national level in that competition. That kind of lit everyone up cause “Look, we do make good beer and we can get some recognition, let's go for it.” And things got pretty exciting at that time and, beer kinda got better. And you know, we had recently come across liquid yeast, you know, a couple of years earlier, it seemed like it was ’87, ‘86, something like that. So beer was getting much better and a lot more fun to brew. I remember making great wort, just absolutely great man, this is the best beer I've ever made. And then throwing in the packet of yeast and when it comes out and like crap. It's just very disappointing. And then Wyeast (yeast laboratory) was the first pack of liquid yeast I remember. In smack packs. Lorton: Is Bob still around here? Are you still in contact with him? Link: A little bit here and there. They spend, I'd say 90% of their time up in June Lake, but they do have the place in Rancho Bernardo. Lorton: Yeah, I mean Bob would be a good guy to talk to you. I mean, he's really a colorful guy. I think he's an ice scientist or something like that who would go on cruises to research the Arctic. And alcohol is not permitted on a ship, but you've got a bunch of scientists who are really creative, so yeah. Bixby: Better than prison brew. Lorton: Yeah. He would tell me about the breweries or the places to get beer in Tromsø, Norway. You know, some of the story, and Bob is such a funny guy. Somebody was talking about Bob at Peter's party too, it may have been you. Link: Yeah, it was probably me. We had dinner with them and Skip and Mary last summer. Okay. About a year ago. Yeah, he's 80 years old now. He's getting along a little slower as people do. Yeah. Downie: Honestly, you can remember, remember what happened. That's it sounds like he's probably, yeah. So he's definitely on my list of people to approach. Mary Anne. When did you join QUAFF, you and Bix? Bixby: I think it was like ‘92 or so but I remember going to meetings at La Jolla Brewing on Fay Street. (Avenue, La Jolla) Link: Yeah, we moved there. Because Callahan's was too slow, too small. Bixby: So you went from Callahan’s to La Jolla and then back to Callahan’s. Link: Yeah. And then the PB (Pacific Beach) Brewhouse. Lorton: I remember my first meeting was at PB Brewhouse, but it was there because Skip was the brewer there and he was doing a tour. And that was probably May or June of ‘94 because I was lucky enough to win best in show for the AFC (America’s Finest City home brewers competition). And so they said, yeah, why don't you come to a meeting? But I think the normal meeting place at that point was La Jolla Brewing on Fay Street. Yeah. Bixby: That's where I first started. Yeah. That little back room. Isn't that where you gave your slide presentation on? Link: No, the slide was at the expanded Callahan's. Well, when we first started at Callahan's, it was just that one room and we couldn't close it off to the public, you know, so we'd have our meeting and the public and it was not, just not. Downie: Not when you are passing out beer. Link: Well, and the club started to grow. I mean we would have, you know, a lot of nights we'd have 15 or 20 people, but then there was one year at the Del Mar Fair where it got a lot of visibility and the next meeting there was like 40 people and it was like standing room only. It's like, wow, we can't do this anymore. And, and, and La Jolla Brewing Company was just opening and they had a nice big back room. It's like October of 1990. And, so then we moved there. They only lasted a year, a year and a half. And Callahan's had expanded so they had a room that they could close off for us. So that was nice. So we went back there and then, then PB Brew House had, but we actually met in the brewery as I recall it. Didn't we? Lorton: I remember Skip. That first meeting, that was the only QUAFF meeting that I went to that was PB Brew House. But Skip had a tour. Link: They weren't there very long. Lorton: No. And Skip was, he was the president at the time and you know, showing how everything was done. That's the only, only time. And again, that was May or June of 1994. Bixby: Was Dion (Hollenbeck) after Skip then? Link: Yes. Lorton: I think Ted Newcomb. Link: Oh, Ted. Bixby: Oh, Ted. And then Skip then Dion? Lorton: Yeah. And then Todd. Link: I think Ted was a one year. Lorton: Yeah, I've got a list of who is president after from Skip on. So, when I get home I'm now going to pull it out (inaudible). Downie: Wow. Yeah. That's so great. At what point would you say QUAFF actually formalized, ‘cause you said you were kind of recruited into the presidency and it sounds like maybe you kind of recruited Skip to be your relief at some point. Link: It’s kind of still that way. (Laughter) Bixby: Are we really formalized? Link: What does that mean? Downie: Bylaws… Lorton: You know, Rich will go to the restroom. Okay quick. Let's decide on president. Rich. Oh, it's unanimous. Come back from the restroom. “Hey Rich, congratulations you’re president.” Downie: The moral there is don't leave the room. Lorton: Yeah. You know when I became president and Peter was the president, it was Todd Fitzsimmons then Peter and then me. But it was always the case as well. You know, Peter's kind of taking over the stuff that Todd was doing. So Peter is kind of a natural guy for that and I think I kind of fell into the same thing. And Harold Gulbransen was after me and so he got in there and then Bob McKay. Bixby: My impression has always been, the president has always fallen into that position. It's like, man… Link: I think there was one year. Bixby: Willing to do the job to, to pick up, you know, to take up the reins and go for it. And, and we've been very, very fortunate in my tenure. I mean, I mean my time with QUAFF to have some really good people dedicated. Link: But there was one year where we had a vote at a club vote. Bixby: Oh, you remember that, who was this then? Link: Well, I think that was Skip’s second term, but we dodged the bullet. And I think that thought, cause I was, when I handed it off to Skip, you know, we would have essentially closed board meetings and I said “I nominate Skip.” And that was pretty much it. Yeah. Yeah. And then something came up about voting for it, and it was hard to, hard to argue on that point, but we did. But boy, there was something close. I remember that was something that was averted. Link: Yeah, but since then I remember, I think when Todd was president, there was some kind of czar-ish directive. (Laughter) Bixby: Czar-ish, it that what you said? Lorton: Well we, you know, when I was on the board from the time I was the newsletter editor from ‘96 on and ‘til I became president, but it was always a board decision on what the officers were going to be rather than, and we would put it up to the meeting if, you know, the board has decided that this should be the slate of officers. Does anybody have any objection or, you know, I think, I can't recall if we actually said all those in favor, say aye and everybody would go “Give me another beer, aye.” You know? Downie: Then everybody had an opportunity to say something, so it wasn't completely closed or anything. Lorton: Well, and the other thing is that the people who were really interested in how the club was running were the board members. Bixby: That's true. Yeah. No, that's a good statement. Yeah. Downie: A process of natural selection. Bixby: Yes, and those who are actually doing most of the work. Lorton: I think that’s the way it continues now. Bixby: Yes, and we've tried to get more newer board members, we want QUAFF to continue. Downie: Right. Bixby: And we've been throwing it out there over and over, you know, but people are reluctant to, they have their own lives. This is not, you know, like any group. It's a volunteer kind of position. So try to get some of these young people, we have, we have several very great new ideas and so on. I love that part. I just want it to continue. I love QUAFF so much. Lorton: You know, you haven't been a one of the senior officers. Bixby: Never, not yet. Link: (Showing photograph) So that was the original room at Callahan. Downie: That's wonderful. Bixby: Can I see that? Lorton: I’ve got to see that too. Link: And then they added on that section right there where they could actually rope it off. Lorton: Yeah, I remember we had one meeting. There was a point at which we were kind of, we kind of hit a minimum and I remember Harold Gulbransen was giving a talk and it was in October and he was competing with the World Series which was on the TV screen behind him. Bixby: Which was hard for him as one eye was probably on the Series and one eye on the…That’s really great. You have a date on the back too? Lorton: This guy is much more… Link: I would say this is probably about 92-ish. This is not like the photos when we were kids that had the date on the back or on the margins. Downie: Well of course I am trying to work with Lee (Doxtader) at Callahan’s and he can probably give me some dates. I would hope he would remember QUAFF’s presence. Bixby: Was Lee around that long ago? Oh my, (another photograph) well that's… Downie: Chris with Karl Strauss. Bixby: Yeah. Yeah. I remember one of those is a beer dinners they had. I actually sat at the table with Karl and his wife. It was kind of fun. Bixby: I think they still have the same chef. Link: You know, I think so. Bixby: Gunther. Downie: You even remember his name. Bixby: Good food! Link: I knew I had a picture. Bixby: Yeah. That's great. Downie: So. the pictures are wonderful. I mean that would be something that I would be interested in digitizing, giving you copies of the digital files. Link: Most of those are pre-digital, so they're just going to be… Downie: Negatives floating around, if you still have the negatives. Link: They’re somewhere. Yeah, it's tough. Downie: It is. I'm going through my parents’ things and my mother was, you know, a historian at heart and I actually, when I was emptying out the house, I found up on the very highest shelf in the entry hall closet, so, of course that's where the heat all rises. Six eight-millimeter films, pre-sound. My parents' wedding day. My cousins, there's actually some of me, I took them to ScanDiego and they were able to salvage pretty much everything and digitize them. So, I have to give my family, you know, pictures, you know, the films on a DVD and say, here you go. And if anybody, I filled in what I knew what I could recognize and some of them I had to kind of guesstimate the date saying, well, okay, I'm in there. So, I know that had to be this year, but I'm not in that one and this cousin looks younger, so it was probably a couple of years earlier. And I've asked the family, of course, you know, probably none of them have actually stopped and taken the time to look at the DVDs. If I put them online like in Dropbox and link them and said, here, go look at these and you know, give me some feedback. They'd probably do that. But you know, a lot of people don't have DVD players even anymore. Link: DVD? Downie: Yeah, I do have the online digital files. Link: That’s our media now. Downie: Yeah, for me. I've got DVD player and stuff. Bixby: (to Lorton) Which one did you get? Lorton: Get Thee to a Nunnery. (beer name) Bixby: I’m telling you, that is going to be one of my new favorites. Link: Did you try the English (inaudible)? Lorton: Oh, the Banksy? Link: No, the (inaudible). Lorton: No I didn’t. Link: What was it, something about all night or midnight or something. Down Through the Night? Bixby: We'll wait for you if you go get a beer. Loron: I'm just going to say… Link: Well now you can talk about me… Lorton: Let me check on my record to see if I... Link: Quite frankly, there were a lot of QUAFF members at that time that didn't like what I was doing and they stopped coming. But I think it was the right thing to do to make QUAFF more.... Bixby: What years were you in? Link: I was president in 1990. So for two years. Lorton: Yeah. I had the same experience. Bixby: I must have this come in on the end of you. I don't remember being displeased. Link: Well, I think people like us, we're happy with the direction it’s going. But the guys that were making the 10 cent pints, were not. Bixby: Oh, there is a different mentality. When you talk to people across the, yeah, it's a different mentality. Lorton: I mean there was a group, they were complaining, “Oh, you guys are too focused on competition.” Bixby: But it was, I never thought it was, so much as focus on competitions is focusing on bettering your craft is what it was. And so the competitions were feedback. I always looked at it in a totally different way. Lorton: Well, it depends on your perspective ‘cause I agree totally with you. Link: But, there were a lot of members even after the exodus in my period, there were still a lot of members thought we were too fixated on competitions. And I would just tell them don't worry about it. Yeah. Downie: You don't have to participate. It can be a goal for some. Bixby: Yeah, yeah. Link: Just learn from it. Come and enjoy it. What did you want? Bixby: Another Nun. Lorton: Let me know what that British beer was Rich that you said if I had… Link: Oh, it’s Down through the Night, a British Strong. Lorton: Oh okay, now I haven’t had that. Bixby: You know, I live so close, I should have had everything here. Lorton: You know, getting drunk has no appeal to me. Bixby: No, no, no, no, no. You know, that's not the point. Lorton: I know a lot of people who, “Oh yeah,” like get, well, I mean, but I'm not one of them. Bixby: You get drunk, you can't taste another good beer. Lorton: Yeah, I get headaches the next morning. You know, if it's too much, the bed starts spinning around. Bixby: It’s been a long time since that happened. Lorton: I was just going to say, that's when I was a wine person. Downie: So, Mary Anne, tell me about Mead Day and the celebration at your house. Bixby: You know I cannot remember the first time I did it. You’re kind of, like have some trust you know, in your reminisces. Lorton: The unfortunate thing is a lot of my memory is actually in the newsletters that I did. And I don't know if my newsletters predate mead day and I'm trying to remember where else we were. I told Judith that Frank Golbeck came to one of our mead days a few years ago. Bixby: But I'd had them before Frank came along. Lorton: They were quite, I don't know how, I don't remember. It just seems like a long time we have done this. And it's the national mead day, which is the first Saturday in August, which is kind of hot in El Cajon usually, which is an understatement. But sometimes it rained a couple times, but other than that… Lorton: I told her about Death Mead Day. Downie: Yeah. I heard about the Death Mead and anything called Death Mead Day is definitely a must attend. Lorton: What kind of alcoholic beverage do you want to not drink a whole lot of when its hot? Bixby: I know it. (Laughter) Link: At least it’s not Imperial Stout Day. Lorton: It’s stronger than Imperial Stout. Bixby: It's been fun over the years. And, we had one guy who was, owned the Downtown Johnny Brown's, for a while and he made mead cocktails and brought them to Mead Day. So even that was fun. We has meads from all over the place. Lorton: Yeah, we started Mead Day probably when AHA started recognizing it (in 2002). It wouldn’t surprise me because we were into meads back in the early 2000s, late 1990s. Bixby: I should check on the original when AHA started that cause they used to have an official recipe. So, it was like, okay, my garage wasn't so full at the time. So we used to make mead in the garage, which kept all the mess and the stickiness right there. And the, and I would… Lorton: The bees. Bixby: …clean out. Well we did have that. Lorton: When you make mead, if you do it outside, you get bees. Bixby: Oh yeah. Downie: There's a cautionary tale. Link: You come in the garage, you get, come on, really? Get outta here. Lorton: Yeah, they like honey. Bixby: But there was an official recipe and I tried to encourage people, you know, this is the official recipe we're going to do. And since I was hosting it hard for me to make it, but I'm trying to get other people to do it and we, we had some pretty good meads. Lorton: Yeah. Well, there's always… Bixby: Hot or not. I mean it was never blasting. Lorton: Yeah. There's always, always more meads. You end up with a whole bunch leftover when we’re done. Bixby: Yeah, because I tried to collect not just the ones on my travels, but some of the competition meads, even the ones where when we had the homebrew competitions. Then they were like unknown cause I never got the printout to say number whatever is such and such. So we just opened them. I still have a few for this year from last year’s competitions. Lorton: Yeah. So, you know, if we have a, if there's a competition, you know, the idea is submit two bottles. If yours is the best in your category and there's three to five categories, then that best in that category will go on and compete for the best of show. But everything else is just a second bottle, looking for a home. Bixby: (Inaudible) was my home for a long time. Downie: There's the advantage to having it at your house. Bixby: Well I didn't drink them, I saved them so we could share. Cause you never, you didn't know what they were. Lorton: At your house. It was better than being at my house. Bixby: Oh maybe so. Lorton: But yeah. And it was good because I think at the time, and we’re still doing this. There are quite a few people who are interested in being mead judges and it's good to look at “Well, this mead isn't quite so good for this reason. It's too hot and too, you know, too alcoholic” Bixby: Or no flavor. Lorton: Yeah. Things like that. So, but yeah, you know, I'm trying to remember if it was at someplace besides your place when we first got started. Bixby: I don't know. I can't remember that. That's too far off. But I know I did it because Bix was into making beer and mead making was similar to wine making. So, it interested me. And so, I started making mead. Link: With your daughter? Bixby: You know, actually I, I know I did it before, but the only mead my daughter and I ever made was in 2000 there's one bottle left. I have no idea how it tastes. I hate to open it without her. If she could ever come to Mead Day, I would open it. But she helped formulate the recipe. Downie: So good. Rich, have you ever done mead or cider? Link: Yeah, I did a few. It wasn't something that I really wanted to do much of because I didn't drink a lot of mead. It was tough for me to, it was just tough to drink that much mead. Yeah. Bixby: Are you a wine maker? I mean a wine drinker at all? You are? Link: Yeah. Bixby: You are. Lorton: I am not. Link: It is a lot easier for me to drink a bottle of wine than it was for mead. Mead was just too much. Lorton: Yeah. I'm kind of the same way. You know, I go through periods when, “Oh, that mead really tastes good. I need to make some.” And then I, you know, I've made a whole bunch and okay and I've got to get rid of these bottles, you know, and… Bixby: No, I agree. When your palate has tasted so many things, I've gone through stages too. So you know, maybe I'm into a hop mood and maybe I'm not, you know, or something like that. Lorton: Well, and for me, I have a beer with dinner and there aren't many foods that don't go well with beer, but there are a lot of foods that don't go well with wine or mead. Bixby: That's interesting. Cause I remember when all this pairing stuff, remember when they were into the pairing and the food and the beer dinners and so on. And that was one of the things I heard right from the beginning. The guys, the chefs, saying not the drinkers, but the chefs would say, yeah, they had an easier time with the beer. Lorton: Yeah. What kind of wine or me goes best with a hamburger or what kind of pizza goes best with wine? Downie: Well, I have to say when I was in the Craft Beer Expo last September and did the chocolate and beer pairing with Bill Sysak. Saturday morning at 9:00 AM, I'm sitting there with chocolate and beer in front of me going, “This is something real wrong, cause I'm not that big a beer drinker.” But Bill made the argument that the carbonation in beer actually because it cuts through the fatty of the foods, makes for a better drink with any food. Link: That’s why it’s so much better with cheese than wine is, you know, the whole wine thing is wine and cheese. Well no, it doesn't work as well as beer. Downie: And with wine, until you get into this whole, you've got red, you've got white, you've got these very distinct strong categories where with beer there seems to be a, because of the hops and things, there seem to be a more consistent thread through it. So, it just seems to be more all-purpose maybe, I am not explaining it very well. Lorton: Well, I mean there's so many, I mean beer is such a much more diverse than wine. Link: I've had arguments with wine makers about that. Oh you know, wine does this. So there's so many variations. And I said, okay, let's just talk about beer, the different kinds of malts, the different kinds of hop, different kinds of yeast. It's like infinite. Yeah, it's, it's truly infinite. Wine. Like you said, you got your reds and whites, you got blends and stuff, but they only got about five or six different categories. Really. Bixby: That was fun for me to watch. The homebrewing community really affect what we drink now because the guys had no limits. And so, we had people making beer with Jolly Ranchers or something from the grocery store, cereal bins, or something like that. And then these ideas just kind of, I think progress and what the creativity is, was part of the whole thing. That's what I love. And then of course the gadgetry, I was in love with the gadgetry. Oh my gosh you guys… Link: There were a lot of engineers and scientists that brew. Bixby: It was beautiful. That's what I love. I did love that part. That so much. Lorton: Yeah. And you see that in commercial brewing now. I mean, if you look at the new things that the brewers are making, you know, I went to a golf and beer festival a couple of weeks ago or a couple of months ago, eight breweries where there, you know, Stone, Mother Earth, Mike Hess, Latitude 33, five of those eight had a citrus IPA. You know, three years ago how many citrus IPAs were out there? Ballast Point was there with Grapefruit Sculpin. Latitude 33 had their Blood Orange IPA. Stone had Tangerine IPA, but three years ago, how many citrus IPAs were out there, and then all these new things are coming along. Man, that Blood Orange IPA from Latitude 33 is so good. Went up to Double Peak (Park) a couple of weeks ago and came back to a Japanese restaurant, a sushi bar, and they had, you know, Asahi, Kirin, Sapporo and this “blood orange stuff that we can't get rid of.” “Oh, I'll take that one. Is that from Latitude 33?” “I don't know I’ll check. Yes, it's from Latitude 33.” Bixby:Interesting. Downie: Interesting that they wouldn't. Of course when somebody goes to a sushi restaurant, they probably want to drink culturally appropriate beer. Lorton: This was in San Marcos, not far from where, you know, Homebrew Mart, whatever, Beer and Wine Crafts was located. Bixby: It’s San Diego County after all. Lorton: Oh man, it went so well, I had tempura so… Link: Are you grasping the hops nowadays? I ‘cause we used to have… Lorton: Yeah. Link: You know, arguments. I really mean ‘cause I would hop my beers. Bixby: You two would? Link: Well exceedingly hoppy and you know, and it was way too hoppy for Greg. Lorton: I would like a beer with a little bit of diacetyl in it. Link and Bixby: Oh no! Lorton: A little bit is a lot. This guy, if you open a beer with that in it in the room… Bixby: He said it a long time ago and it sticks in my mind. Link: I'm across the room going alright, who opened that up? Get that outta here! Lorton: Yeah, you and Skip. Well I normally like Belgian beers. I like non-hoppy beers, but if I'm going to have a pizza, it's got to be an IPA. you know, I really like a hoppy beer with pizza or hot chili. Downie: Spicy. Lorton: Yeah. Yeah. I haven't found a wine yet that goes well with those, but, and I haven't looked real hard either. But you know, for a beer like for a food like pizza or chili and I really kinda want a hoppy beer. Link: Chiantis, the Sangiovese with Pizza Hut. (Laughter) Bixby: There you go. Lorton: Oh man. Your masculinity is just gone into that. (Laughter) Yeah. I stopped being a wine person as soon as I discovered homebrewing. I haven't had a wine in at least a year. Bixby: Oh, I’m afraid I am an all-purpose drinker. Downie: Since you have made wine… Bixby: It depends on it, whatever my mood is. Sometimes I am in the mood for hops… Link: I don't discriminate against any alcohol. Bixby: Nor do I. Lorton: I don't have any wine in my house. Bixby: A good single malt scotch sometimes that’s what you want. Lorton: I’ve got a bottle of Laphroaig and Balmore in my refrigerator. I like them cool. But, uh, no wine. Bixby: Oh dear. Link: So where did we leave off on the QUAFF? Downie: My questions were fairly generic here, so I'm just kind of looking. You've talked about the growth of the membership, which I think really says something. I do have other QUAFF past-presidents like Peter Zien to talk to yet, but it sounds like you are still members of a very strong supportive community and you know, you're very open minded too, except for that one thing that you've talked about that you could smell it across the room. It sounds like you're a super smeller. Lorton: Diacetyl, it’s butter, it’s buttery aroma. Downie: Okay. Lorton: Really good. Bixby:For me, it’s skunky. I’ll get the skunkiness out of anything, I hate it. Link: Great on popcorn. Not so good in beer. Lorton: But I mean Rich is one of these people that is, yeah… Bixby: You know the thing you said about supportive, I think the key that I've always found with QUAFF. Supportive, not just in the, oh, who needs help brewing, but just in other ways too. When my husband died, I knew if I needed something…I'm usually, I'm a loner and I'll do it myself kind of thing. But I knew if I really needed something, I could call on somebody and I had many offers. So, I think that's, that's what it became, well, I mean, I said it in Sheldon’s (Kaplan) movie (SUDS County, USA). QUAFF to me was always a family, like a second family. Lorton: I, then one thing that Rich brings is, I mean you've been all over the world tasting beer and you know, you can talk about places in Brussels to go if you want a good beer. Places, you know… Bixby: The knowledge you mean? Lorton: Yeah. Just, well experiencing those beers at the source. You know, for me, my favorite beer city is Bamberg, Germany. Bixby: You like those malt beers. Lorton: I like it. You know, the majority of the breweries there don't make smoked beers, but you know, they all make good beer and but yeah, I do love the smoked beer. I mean almost as much as buttery beer. Downie: Where do you stand on smoked beer Rich? Link: I like it. Okay. Oh yeah. You do have common ground there somewhere. Lorton: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Link: I mean there isn't a beer style that I hate unless they put cucumber in it. (Laughter) Bixby: I might have to agree with you on that. Like cucumber water. Link: I haven't figured that one out yet. Downie: That does sound like it would be a mistake. Link: Yeah. But I see it on the shelves now. Bixby: Oh dear. Oh you do? Link: Yeah. Not kidding. Lorton: I'm trying to remember if at that beer festival I had one with cucumber in it. In the competitions, I usually like to judge what we call weird beers, which is fruit beers, spice or vegetable beers, specialty. And occasionally you run into a cucumber. But I've had some cucumber beers lately. They weren't bad, but cucumber is not my favorite. I guess that's a vegetable I don’t know and uh, yeah, it's not, I've never made one with cucumber in it. Bixby: I like cucumbers but not in water and probably would not like it in beer. Link: People like it. And that's fine. Bixby: I’ve had asparagus beer that I thought was… Link: WOW. wow. Bixby: No, I know when I saw it the guys were saying this is at GABF and so, ”You have to try this, you have to try that.” Oh, okay. And then it was done perfectly. It's like how do you get asparagus in a beer and not have it like be yucky or something? Although it did have the same effect after the fact, as eating asparagus, unfortunately. (laughter) Lorton: Thank you. TMI. I’ve never had an asparagus beer. Or spinach Bixby: It’s interesting, the different beers, you know, you run into at GABF (Great American Beer Festival) when you're, when you're working in the back with all the beers. A job. I like. Lorton: Oh wow. Link: I remember an early QUAFF meeting and the guy brought in a beer that he brewed based on some historical reading. He had dug up with bananas. And he brought it up and we're tasting it. I'm going, “Oh my God. You know, I've done everything I can to get banana tastes and flavors out of my beers. Why would you intentionally put it in?” Bixby: That’s really interesting. Link: Historical significance? Okay. Don’t like it. Lorton: I've heard that. Bixby: Not on that Sumerian tablet, I’m sure. Downie: A sacrifice for historical research. Well, there actually is in ancient Greece, if a woman was having trouble nursing a child after birth, there was a recipe involving worms crushed up in beer to correct the situation. Bixby:Oh, that's interesting. They could have minused the worms. I'm sure she would have been happier. Downie: Yeah. Maybe. Maybe the worms were to keep her from drinking too much. I don't know, but… Bixby: Maybe that's a good point. Lorton: You know, probably 15 years ago we were talking about cock ale. Randy Barnes made a beer with chicken in it and it wasn't very good. He said, well, okay, I made the cock ale and Randy, he's the guy who's the vice president of educational services with a community college district. Bixby: He’s the dean or something. Lorton: Yeah, he's the kind of guy who would do it. He's the guy who you'd never expect is a professional, if you ever ran into him. Bixby: That's right. Lorton: If, but I, yeah and he’s really… Bixby: Creative. Lorton: And he's really smart and with a sense of humor that just would never stop. Link: Jim Koch told me about doing that once their little brewery (Sam Adams) back in Boston. A pilot brewery. It wasn't so good. Downie: Yeah, it doesn't… Link: Throwing in chickens into the… Bixby: I can't even, why would you even consider that? Downie: Any meat product does not sound like it would… Link: There is some historical significance about it, which I couldn't even grasp. Lorton: Yeah, I didn't. Yeah, that's a good, I don't know. Link: Cause you know he based a lot of things on historical significance. Lorton: Yeah. Yeah. Bixby: Oh, I am going to have to read up on that now. Chicken and beer and see what I get. Lorton: Cock Ale. Ask Randy. He would probably recall. Bixby: Why he would do, I don't know about the historical, maybe he would. Lorton: Well yeah, I can't remember how we got onto that, but it was enough that it kind of sustained itself for a couple months. Downie: That's something I'm seeing here in your stories is the fact that you're supportive of each other, that you've kept in touch with each other, that you've had fun. Bixby: Oh my gosh. I don't know about these guys, but I had a blast probably, you know, I'm, I married a guy who was kinda quiet, not a social kind of person. In fact, even now when I'm thinking about him after a couple, you know, a year and a half, it's like I look up, you know, Asperger's in adults. I go, that sounds like my man. No, he just was not a social kind of guy, but QUAFF, there was a home for him in QUAFF and everybody seemed to accept him and he felt, you know, quote end quote loved there, whatever you want to call it. That was just the right place to be. I mean, it just, for us as geeky, nerdy, whatever you want to call us, we fit. Lorton: Well, and the other thing is that, you know, one of the reasons I really like making beer as opposed to making wine is that when I was married, I had a brother-in-law who was a real wine snob and he was a spirits snob, and you know, it was, it just grated on me. And you know, beer people aren't like that. Well, you know, most beer people aren't. Bixby: But do you think so? I don't think they are. Link: There are some, but yeah, there's you know… Lorton: There are a few that say, well, I'm not going to drink that. Bixby: Even the women who drink wine a lot, they’ll drink beer now and then. Link: Any, aspect of, like cheese or hamburger, anything. People are purist people. Yeah. Lorton: You have people in QUAFF who will say, “I'm not gonna drink a Ballast Point beer because they're owned by Constellation Brands. Or I'm not going to buy a…”, you know, yeah. Downie: Well, that can go back to when gas hit a dollar a gallon. People saying, “I'm not buying any more gas. Well, I'd like to see you try.” Lorton: That’s the nice thing, in beer is a much more community, you know, it, it's… Bixby: I'm not sure what it is across the country ‘cause I don't know anywhere else, but San Diego and I just feel they've been cooperative and giving. Lorton: I think it’s like that in most places, yeah. Link: Mm-hum. Bixby: I mean, I know when I've traveled all these years with Bix, we always of course, stopped at breweries nearby, right. If not aimed towards them specifically. That if you start talking to the guys, and I always like just sitting at the bar talking to who brews this. And then pretty soon somebody comes out. Oh, let me show you my tanks. And it's usually, like Peter, and like AleSmith started out with dairy tanks or something and I, and I had to weld this and I had to do that and I go, Oh yeah. So that's just a different… Lorton: It's like that all over the country. It, and it was funny because when I was teaching business classes that you'd have marketing people who didn't know beer saying, well, you know, there's not a lot of cooperation among competitors in an industry. And I say, well, you need to look at the brewing industry because you know, like, when there was a hop shortage eight years ago, you know, some brewers were giving hops to others or selling at a low price to allow them to continue. Sam Adams was selling hops, at their, you know, their costs as opposed to what the price was. You know, when there was the hop shortage. Bixby: Oh, cause they had the option. Link: Well, they bought futures, future contracts. Lorton: I mean, look at all the homebrew clubs. I was looking at the names of some of those clubs, like Brewers United for Real Potables in Virginia, the Greater Denver Yeast Infection and you know, Maltose Falcons and, you know, playing on the Maltese Falcon. Bixby: That’s a good one. Lorton: There’s Foam on the Brain here. And you know, QUAFF there, there's so many funny names that Strange Brew in Oregon, you know, and in all kinds, Urban Knaves of Grain, in Chicago. Yeah, I mean there's so many funny names, so. Yeah. And that's because that's how brewers are. They, you know, Hey, you know, this is fun. You know, we're not taking it too seriously. We are, you know, really studying, brewing, but it's for fun, you know. Bixby: Seems you know, that'd be a good lesson all over. Link: I think is just more of a social fun drink than spirits. Lorton: If I'm going to go to a place where I'm going to have a drink with other people and I have to go home, I'm going to have a beer. I'm not going to have a, you know, scotch on the rocks, you know, I'm not gonna to do that, you know? Bixby: Well, there is a group that would do that. You know, what do they think about, you know, my martini for dinner and scotch after or… Lorton: Beer seems like it's a much more sociable drink that let's go have a beer. Bixby: More for the common man and we're all just common man. I don’t know, I don’t know what the deal is. Lorton: You know, maybe a lower alcohol and a… Link: Yes, lower alcohol. You get a pint. You can drink for a half hour or more and still drive home. Lorton: Even if your home is like a mile away or so. Link: Yeah, right up there. Bixby: Mine is max 10 minutes. And that's taking the slow road here. Lorton: Well, yeah, I was gonna say when I went to Mead Day last year, I came here first and then I got on the road and I was driving and some guy’s really slow SUV or something or a Leer truck. Oh, it's Teresa and Rich. Oh, they're going to the same place I’m going. Link: It was after a day at Mead Day we decided to stop here. Yeah. Lorton: Well I did it before, which was probably a little bit of a mistake. Yeah. Downie: Well, one final thing I'd like to ask about…the increase of women in brewing, are you seeing that reflected in the membership in QUAFF? Link: I can't talk to that cause I haven't been to a QUAFF meeting. Bixby: I would, I would say no. I mean I belong to SUDS. Downie: The San Diego sorority. Bixby: Yeah. Yeah. And those women are not involved in commercial brewing. They are, it's not like the Pink Boots, it's more that they want to do their own thing. They know what they're doing and like, they do know what they're doing in spite of what you guys might think, (interjected denials from Link and Lorton) these girls do know what they're doing. In fact, I was, you know, it's really interesting cause when Juli first, Juli Goldenberg, first came up with the idea for this group (San Diego Suds Sorority), she talked at a QUAFF meeting and I said, “Oh shoot, you know, I grew up in the 60s we'd marched for equal rights, we burned our bras, we did all this kind of stuff. And why do we want to separate, you know, why do we want it something separate?” And Harold, I know I mentioned that to Harold, he goes, why don’t you just get involved in that? Why don't you see what they're all about? Cause something, I dunno what it was that he saw. So I thought. Okay. And I went and I was really impressed because they knew what they wanted to do. He knew about brewing, they had been brewing, they just wanted a group that wasn't going to be intimidating. And I went to a talk when we had our last (inaudible) conference here was in 2015 and it was about women. And that whole idea was a panel discussion on, I thought it was absolutely excellent cause there were groups of women from different women's groups across the country talking about that whole idea. And one other woman my age, as she appeared to be, got up and said, “Why do we want to be separated” and I go, “Oh gosh, that's what I voiced.” Bixby: But then the group panel kind of, you know, said because when we do stuff with the guys they want to take over, you know, it's a natural… Link: You’re a minority. It's tougher. Bixby: Thank you very much. Lorton: Well, no, no true. Bixby: In the brewing community. Yes. Not in life. Okay, that's true. So it's like what do we know about the science or the whole art of brewing? And they said this way, you know, we have this, this separateness that we can kind of teach each other and have this open kind of a... And one of the ladies said, “All guys were asking if they could come and join. Yes, you can come and be part of it, but you have to sit over there and be eye candy.” (laughter) Link: And don’t talk. Bixby: Yeah. And if we need something lifted. Downie: I was going to say there might be something of the chivalry aspect where that's big as, you're a little woman and let me help you with that. Bixby: But I thought that was a very interesting topic and it was pertinent too. And I, since I joined the SDSS and have been part of that, I've been totally impressed with the beers that come out of there. And the girls, they're just, they're fun. Lorton: Yeah. Well, if you look at who won this year at (the San Diego) International Beer Festival, I mean Liz Chism is the brewer at Council (Brewing Company). She's the one who made the beer that won. And… Bixby: It's nice that her husband Curtis really makes a point of that is not, he's not intimidated. So for me he has a lot of… Lorton: Well it was a little bit of a mind change too for me that, ‘cause I thought Curtis was the brewer. Bixby: I knew from the beginning. Lorton: He clarified that with me. That Liz is the one who brews, she's the one who makes the recipes. Bixby: So that's very impressive. She's very good at… Lorton: Oh yeah. Yeah. I've judged with both of them and she definitely, I mean it was clear that she really understands. Bixby: I don’t know, I don't see, I mean I don't know what Pink Boots (Society, organization for women and non-binary brewers) says. I know there's women in the industry, but as far as home brewing, I don't see a big enough presence in QUAFF. And I don't know if it's intimidation. I don't think so. I don't, I think it's like what's more important in your life? What's going on? Do you need to… Link: The time that you have available, its pretty easy to go order a beer. Bixby:You know, a guy is going to go out, that's his thing. You know, where a woman might say I got, especially if she has kids and then she's got a job and then she's got a house and I'm sorry guys. But it's still that way you're as the female, you're still the one that, because it's your nest and it's, and that's okay. It's just, you know, when I was growing up it's like gender equality, course, you know, I will always be for financial equality, but you know, these days there is no gender equality. We are different and that's okay. And once we get past that then we can go on. Lorton: Well, you know, before the Industrial Revolution, women were the ones who made beer. You know, that was part… Bixby: That way before, cause you guys were doing the, catching those mammoths and whatever else you guys, you know. Lorton: So you know, that was their job. I think. Yeah, it's unfortunate. I think that, you know, there is this, still you know, homebrewing is still predominantly a male kind of thing. The other thing that I think is surprising, and I didn't realize this until after I'd started all grain brewing is I'm essentially cooking, you know? Yeah. Here I am in the kitchen, slaving over a hot stove. (laughter) I'm cooking. So, yeah. And you know, and I realize, I'm creating recipes thinking, okay... (brief interruption by the server.) Downie: You did want your crowler. Don’t forget. Bixby: Oh that’s right, cause I'm going to the meeting tomorrow. Lorton: Oh, and for Mead Day, I went to a new meadery last week in Vista. Bixby: Which one? Lorton: Twisted Horn. Bixby: I've heard of that. How was it? Lorton: Yeah, they had some good meads. I'm waiting for Billy (Beltz) to open his meadery (Lost Cause Meadery). Bixby: Me too. Lorton: …and he's going to be in Miramar. That's going to be something. Link: What’s the name of it? Lorton: Lost Cause. Link: Isn’t there another meadery just opened there? Lorton: Well, Twisted Horn. Oh, it's Serendipity Cider is there. Bixby: He’s in the same spot is as... Lorton: And I think he's been having some regulatory problems, but there are four meaderies. There's also one called Mediocrity. Bixby: Yeah. And then the Bronto group guys. Lorton: Oh, I haven't heard that one. Bixby: Yeah, they're not making good stuff. Mediocrity is okay. Lorton: I have not tried theirs. Bixby: They're like up in there. They're okay. Link: Are they like mediocre? (laughter) Bixby: I don't know why somebody would choose that name. Lorton: We were talking about how about Black Plague (Brewing Company) as a name for a brewery? Link: Yeah. Bixby: I'm not sure where these guys come up with this stuff, but… Lorton: Well, Twisted Horn is a big Viking thing. And they're in the area with all the Vista breweries. Bixby: Were they on the sweet side or no, is Viking sweet? Lorton: No, they were semi-sweet. But they had, you know, they had like, it was posted Horn Mead and Cider and I only tried the meads but they had probably six meads to choose from. The one I liked the best was a blueberry melomel, but they had various collections. I'll bring some, I'll stop by there and get a small growler to bring by. But yeah, on Lost Cause, I mean when they get situated there's going to be five breweries and meaderies literally across the street (Miralani Drive, San Diego) from each other. Bixby: And sake. Lorton: Okay. Yeah. Cause I mean Two Kids, Align, what’s that, Thunderhawk? And there’s another one, Projector? Bixby: I know. Downie: There's Protector. Link: Protector. That’s the one, they're not a meadery? Lorton: I don't think they are. Bixby: Protector. Now see that's not one I have heard of. I can't keep up. These guys are moving too fast. Lorton: Well yeah, I've got to talk with my son cause my son likes to make mead and… Bixby: Oh, his son made the best. I'm sorry, I'm sorry Greg, but his bouchet was wonderful. Lorton: Bouchet is a mead that's made from caramel from sugar that's been, or honey that's been carmelized. Downie: Ooh. Bixby: And you know I tasted one at Mike Buck’s. Mike Buck made one that was really good too. Lorton: Yeah. I made one. But it was kind of underdone. Bixby: Yeah, your son's was… Lorton: Yeah, he made a good one. It was distinctive. Bixby: I can definitely remember one. Mine just tasted really good at the beginning, getting at all those bubblegum flavors and all that. And then it just dissipated. Okay. That's not non distinct. Lorton: Right. Unfortunately, mine is gone, long gone, so I don't know what… Bixby: Mine's gone too. Lorton: That tastes like. But yeah, that area, that Miralani Drive is… Bixby: I know and it's getting… Link: Oh, they're (Protector Brewery) all organic. Organic. Lorton: Okay. Downie: Yeah. I was just looking at them last night. Bixby: Oh dear. So what’s not organic about honey? Lorton: True. Link: They’re not a meadery, they’re a brewery. Bixby: Oh. Oh. Downie: And probably the biggest challenge is organic hops. Bixby: Oh, that makes sense. So is anybody doing that locally? Organic hops? I mean, how many local hops growers do we have? We have Star B (ranch and hop farm in Ramona, CA)… Lorton: Well, I would guess I met with a guy (Eric March) from Star B one time and we were talking about you know, meads, but you know, it wouldn't surprise me. And there's an article in West Coaster I think this month about Star B also. Bixby: Is there? Lorton: Yeah. Get the West Coaster here. Bixby: Is it in there? Lorton: Yeah. Okay. But yeah, you know, I think one of the interesting things is, you know, looking at businesses and that's one thing that I've been trying to study a lot is you know, what's the factors lead to success in business. And you know, we see that, okay, apparently Lightning (Brewery, Poway CA) is selling all their stuff. Bixby: Yeah. I don't know what, Jim (Crute), I think is too academic or… Lorton: No marketing at all. Bixby: Yeah. I think, I mean, he was a great brewer and all that and I loved it. He was a great guy. Lorton: But did you see Intergalactic (Brewing Company) is looking at maybe getting it, you need to get the West Coaster (San Diego brewing magazine, defunct). Downie: And the Intergalactic website is saying that they are definitely taking a different direction, whether it's to close or… Bixby: No kidding. Lorton: There's an article on it. Link: I heard that last Friday Lorton: And you know, I think the way to go in the future is just do it small. You know, don't they expect to conquer the world? Bixby: You mean don't start thinking Ballast Point billion dollars-ish. I think that's going to do you in, ‘cause we are San Diego and you would like some of our local, um… Lorton: There's also an interview with Jim Crute in that and he says if he was ever to get back in the business it would be as a nanobrewery making a small amount of beer for a localized customer base. Bixby: Like, like local English pub kind of thing made locally. Link: Like this here (Burning Beard Brewery). Bixby: Oh well like, yeah, they don't want to screw this up because this is too close to my house. And I know it's a bit like, I don't even have to go to Santee. I'm right here. Lorton: Like I was telling Judith that El Cajon was pretty much a beer desert. Bixby: Oh, you don't even go there. I know how many times I was like, “Oh, the Bostonia Ballroom (El Cajon, CA), that huge building there. I thought that's a great place for some fun.” Well, no, now I don't know what they're doing over there. Link: Yeah, that area is… Bixby: Don't say that. There's where I live. I don't know what's going on in that area. Link: It’s a commercial area. Bixby: I mean, I don't know what's happening with El Cajon in general. Lorton: It’s a great place to visit, but not to live. (laughter) Bixby: Find me a house in La Mesa so I can walk to a coffee. Lorton: Yeah. But you’re east of that, right? You're closer to Alpine than anybody else here. Bixby: Yeah. I am close to Alpine. Bixby: Yeah. I used to go the Breadbasket all the time when before it was Alpine Brewing. Lorton: Is that right? Bixby: Yeah. Downie: Well, at this point I'm going to end our recording and I want to thank you all for the time and the stories. This has been absolutely fascinating. I'm filling in some of the gaps and given me leads of more people to go chase down for more histories. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. 
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Title
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Link, Rich, Mary Anne Bixby, and Greg Lorton. Interview July 9, 2017.
Description
An account of the resource
<span><strong>Rich Link, Mary Anne Bixby and Greg Lorton</strong> are all early members of <strong>Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity (QUAFF)</strong>, a San Diego area homebrewing group. In this interview, Link, Bixby, and Lorton discuss their introduction to craft beer, early home brewing experiences, QUAFF, various local breweries, mead, and womens’ participation in homebrewing. None have worked in the industry professionally, but all are certified beer judges and Lorton and Bixby also judge mead competitions.</span><br /><br /><span><strong>Link</strong> wrote for the </span><em>Celebrator Beer News</em><span> magazine on the Southern California beer scene and his experiences visiting European breweries. He served several terms as QUAFF President. He is a certified beer judge.</span><br /><br /><span><strong>Lorton</strong> served as QUAFF Newsletter editor and President. (He has provided a separate oral history.)</span><br /><br /><span><strong>Bixby</strong>, with her late husband, Horace, switched from wine making to beer making. She belonged to the SDSS (San Diego Suds Sorority) which was a women-only subgroup of QUAFF.<br /></span>
<p><span data-contrast="auto"><strong>QUAFF</strong> was founded in 1989 for San Diego area homebrewers to learn, improve, and successfully compete with their beers, ciders, meads, and other fermented beverages. The group also assists members with earning national Beer Judge Certification (BJCP) and encourages participation in club-only and external competitions and charity events. </span><span data-ccp-props="{"134233117":true,"134233118":true}"> </span><span data-ccp-props="{"134233117":true,"134233118":true}"> </span></p>
<p><span data-contrast="auto">QUAFF is noted for sponsoring the America’s Finest City Homebrew Competition. One recipe from the pool of first-place winners considered for Best of Show at this event is selected for production at a local commercial brewery. Participating breweries have included Stone Brewing and AleSmith Brewing. The beers produced include Stone’s Xocovesa, developed by member Chris Banker. The club has garnered awards such as the American Homebrewers Association’s Radegast Award for community involvement and California and National Homebrew Club of the Year Awards, based on competition points earned. </span><span data-ccp-props="{"134233117":true,"134233118":true}"> </span></p>
<p><span data-contrast="auto">Dozens of QUAFF members have ‘gone pro’ either finding employment in the beer industry in a variety of positions or opening their own brewery. Some have opened breweries in San Diego County and others have moved either elsewhere in California or out of state.</span><span data-ccp-props="{"134233117":true,"134233118":true}"> </span></p>
<p><span data-ccp-props="{"134233117":true,"134233118":true}"> </span><span data-contrast="auto">As the group has grown, the monthly meetings have moved from member’s homes, to Callahan’s Pub, Karl Strauss Brewery and Gardens, and now meet at The Gärten (Bay Park neighborhood beer garden space shared by Lost Cause Mead, Oddish Wine, and Deft Brewing.) </span><span data-ccp-props="{"134233117":true,"134233118":true}"> </span><span data-ccp-props="{"134233117":true,"134233118":true}"> </span></p>
<p><span data-contrast="auto">Their website is found at </span><a href="https://quaff.org/"><span data-contrast="none">https://quaff.org/</span></a><span data-contrast="auto"> </span><span data-ccp-props="{"134233117":true,"134233118":true}"> </span></p>
<span>This recording was made on the front exterior patio of Burning Beard Brewery in El Cajon; there are periods of traffic noise which interfered with recording.</span>
Identifier
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SC027-054
Subject
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Home brewing -- California -- San Diego County
Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity (San Diego, Calif.)
Women brewers -- California -- San Diego County
Date
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2017-07-09
Format
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audio
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Rich Link
Mary Anne Bixby
Greg Lorton
Contributor
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Judith Downie
Coverage
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San Diego County (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos
Language
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English
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Rights Holder
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California State University San Marcos
Brewchive(r)
Women's experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/350ab5bf49cba0e9a4a923eb587611ce.pdf
f11c38b6b10d6cbed0c2b9dd40740984
PDF Text
Text
RICH LINK, MARIANNE
BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
Judith Downie: 00:00:00
Okay. It's July 9th, 2017.1 This is Judith Downie interviewer, with Rich Link
and Mary Anne Bixby and Greg Lorton, all QUAFF members, former officials
of QUAFF, for oral history about their experiences with homebrewing and
QUAFF. 2 It should be able to pick up everybody. So basically, you know,
you can kind of look at those questions I gave you. You can start talking
maybe from, how did you start homebrewing? What got you interested?
Rich Link:
00:00:40
Well, I liked beer. And I saw something on TV one day and I saw something
in a liquor store and it had a recipe and I said, “You can actually make beer
at home?” And then I just looked in the yellow pages and there was Wine
Art at the time over here on Fletcher Parkway.3 And, uh, that was in 1980
as I recall it. And at that time, homebrewers essentially made a five-gallon
batch with a can of malt and four pounds of corn sugar, holding back a cup
of corn sugar for bottling. For the bottling. And it was okay. It was as
actually better than, you know, the mass-produced beers here in the
United States ‘cause you know, we just couldn't take that stuff anymore.
90% of what I would drink would come from England and Germany. And at
that time those were really good beers.
Downie:
00:01:54
And where were you finding these beers?
Link:
00:01:56
Yeah, in liquor stores. Yeah. Like that time, I think we had like Liquor Barn
and some of the little hole-in-the-walls would have some good imports, but
you know, it was like some beers were like $10, $12 a six pack and that was
pretty expensive. You could make about two and a half cases of beer for
about $10 or $15., seems like. Yeah. You know, I remember my first batch
very, very clearly. It was a Pale Ale and it got all funked up with the yeast
and it was cidery and it's like, “Okay, but you know, there's still something
behind there that tastes really good.” It actually had good malt flavor and
some hop flavor. Had no idea what the hops were because we just bought
a bag that said ‘boiling hops’ and another one that said ‘finishing hops’.
[Laughter.]
Greg Lorton:
00:02:56
But you made it.
Link:
00:02:58
Yeah. And it was cool. And I remember when the fermentation took off and
you'd see the head on the beer. It's like, “Wow, that's pretty cool.” Smelled
amazing. Bottling sure was a pain in the butt.
Mary Anne Bixby: 00:03:12 It always is.
Recording on front exterior patio of Burning Beard Brewery in El Cajon, there are periods of traffic noise which
interfered with recording.
2
Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity home brewers club.
3
In the 1980s, Wine Art was a nation-wide chain of supply shops for home wine making. It was located on Fletcher
Parkway in El Cajon, California.
1
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
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�RICH LINK, MARIANNE
BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
Lorton:
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
Yeah. That's the one thing that pushes me towards Rich and uh, yeah. Mary
Anne, what about you and Bix?4
Bixby:
00:03:28
Well, my first experience with home brewed beer was in college and it
wasn't my own, it was friends' and the guys had made this beer that they
had in mason jars. It was all cloudy. so, it was very yeasty. That part I
remember very well and it was awful. It was awful. I think all I could say
was give me a glass of wine.
Lorton:
00:03:51
Were you a, you were a chemistry major?
Bixby:
At one time.
Lorton:
Okay. At Purdue?
Bixby:
At Purdue.
Lorton:
Okay.
Bixby:
00:04:00
But, when I got married, we were winemakers and we started out with
Wine Art in Chicago and they had these plans where you could make four
wines and they had the classes and… Wine Art at that time was, like early
seventies, not into beer that much. They had some cans of malt on the
shelf, but nowhere near what we have available now with yeasts and the
hops and so on. So Bix and I were making wine and he did try beer once
but it started exploding in the basement. So I think we dumped most of it
out.
Link:
00:04:39
I can’t tell you how many times I've heard that story about exploding beers.
“Oh yeah. My uncle used to make beer. It used to explode.” Man, I never
had one explode.
Lorton:
00:04:47
Yeah, I would wake up in the morning, go out in the garage and “Hmm.
Smells like malt.”
Bixby
Oh oh.
Lorton:
You look at the shelf and there's stuff dripping down, a wet spot with
bottles there and there's one bottle that looks a little shorter than the
others. And yeah, it blew apart and the top sank down. Yeah, I had. And it
wasn't until, you know, I never had that with an extract brew. But once I
started all grain brewing…
4
Bix is the nickname for Mary Ann’s husband, Horace Bixby, another early member, deceased.
Transcribed by Ernest
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BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
Lorton:
00:05:21
I never had a bad extract brew. I never had great extract brew. But once I
went to all grain, I had some really good ones. Some pretty bad ones.
[Laughter.] So now when was this all this wine making stuff?
Bixby:
00:05:45
Well, in the 70s and then we moved here to California in ‘75 and we
started with the Wine Art again with making wine with their program. And
then all this stuff started appearing on the shelves and Bix got interested in
the beer, and before you know it, he was making beer and also we joined
QUAFF. And that went that direction totally. I think we only made a few
wines after that; it was all beer.
Downie:
00:06:20
So, my understanding is that Audrey Eckblom and Owen were kind of the
nucleus of the startup QUAFF. But I have not been able to reach Audrey
and I know she's in Nevada and I tried to call her and I've tried writing her
and don't get a response. So, what do you remember about beer in Wine
Crafts? I know she took it over when Wine Crafts decided to close the
location and she became Beer and Wine Crafts. But you know anything
about her history as a brewer or anything like that?
Lorton:
00:07:02
Yeah, I moved down here in 1988 and I was living in Carlsbad, but that was
the only place to go. And they opened a second shop in San Marcos.
Probably in the, I'm thinking, uh, mid-nineties…
Link:
Mid-nineties, something like that, 1995.
Lorton:
Yeah, it was you know, I can show you exactly where it is in San Marcos.
Link:
I remember it.
Lorton:
But I mean that was a lot closer for me. Yeah. It was near Bent Avenue.
Bixby:
00:07:42
Well before Audrey and Owen had the place, there was, it was owned by
somebody named Peter, I think it was Peter, his name. And he I guess got
out of the business, I don't know, cause then it was Audrey and Owen and
she was pretty, she was really very helpful.
Link:
00:08:02
She used to make wine. She was actually an employee there. And I
remember the girl that was one of the owners, she had an accent. I don't
remember her name, but it was shortly after that that they, Owen and
Audrey bought the place from her. Now Owen was actually a beer judge.
He, he knew beer.
Bixby:
I didn’t know that.
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BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
Link:
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
Yeah. Now, I don't know about any accreditation. It certainly wasn't with
the AHA, but, he was labeled a beer judge.5 So yeah. I was a pretty good
beer judge myself from college days.
Downie:
00:08:45
Well, accreditation would have been maybe a little bit later because it was
Carter's era that, even home brewing was legal again. So, you really
couldn't probably do accredited judging until, you know, you'd had a few
years being legal again.
Link:
00:09:00
I don't remember when the AHA started, but I think the legalization was in
‘79. Yeah. And that's when the bill by Alan Cranston.6 Yeah.
Downie:
00:09:16
He signed it and Carter signed it in ‘78.
Link:
00:09:20
The US bill started by a Senator in Wisconsin.7
Downie:
00:09:28
And then everything winds up having to come down to state level and then
county level and city level.
Lorton:
00:09:33
But California was at the forefront of that kind of stuff. So. Yeah.
Downie:
00:09:40
And so Rich, you were telling Greg that you were the third QUAFF
president who was president number one and number two?
Link:
00:09:47
So, president number one was Greg Schwaller and so now I wasn't there.
So a lot of what I get is from Bob Whritner.
Lorton:
00:10:02
And I have an email from Greg Schwaller going the fact that your part of
that where he was, you know, kind of you're remembering what the
original, he was the one who came up with the name of QUAFF.
Bixby
Interesting.
Lorton:
And he was citing a verse from Poe, Edgar Allen Poe as the source. And
what they were doing is they were thinking, you know, all, most
homebrew clubs have some clever pun-related acronym. And, you know,
they felt that, well, QUAFF is, let's think of something that QUAFF sounds
like a beer-drinking term. So, let's come up with some words that fit that.
So that's where Quality Ale Fermentation Fraternity came from.
Unfortunately, Bob gave me some stuff that documented all of that. It was
like the originals. I gave it to Peter and I'm not sure if it still exists. 8 I meant
5
AHA is the American Homebrewers Association.
Cranston’s bill was specifically for California.
United States (Federal level).
8
Peter Zien
6
7
Transcribed by Ernest
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BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
to ask Peter when I last saw him, but you know, it actually has the legal
yellow pad where it has the names of the…
Downie:
00:11:17
Bixby:
Lorton:
Oh, you need to ask him.
00:11:20
Link:
Lorton:
Yeah. I have to ask Peter. Yeah. Peter Zien, [several people talking] you
know, I meant to ask him. Judith and I talked with Peter a couple of weeks
ago and I forgot then I [inaudible]. Peter's birthday party, I forgot.
That was a busy day.
00:11:41
Downie:
Lorton:
Is this is Peter Zien?
Yeah. And I'm hoping they still have it.
Yeah, I've still got the oral history to arrange with Peter and Vicky, so I'll
put that on my list to ask as well.
00:11:54
Yeah, I guess Greg Schwaller now, lives, I think at Three Rivers, which is
near Sequoia. At least that was where he was I think 2010 or so.
Link:
Okay.
Bixby:
Gosh, that's a long time ago, yeah.
Link:
00:12:09
I thought Bob, last I talked with Bob, he thought he was up Montana or
Wyoming or something like that, but who knows.
Lorton:
00:12:19
Yeah, I can send you the email that has that.
Downie:
00:12:20
That would be lovely, yeah, that'd be a real touchstone for QUAFF’s
history.
Lorton:
00:12:26
It would because I, I never met him…met Greg. Bob is, Rich and Bob or
someone
Bixby:
Who was after you?
Link:
After me? Skip.9
Lorton:
Who was before you?
9
Skip Virgilio.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
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BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
Link:
Paul Wesley.10 So I remember when QUAFF was starting because Owen
tried to get me to go to the meetings. At that time, I wasn't really
interested in, it wasn't all that interested in joining or being part of things.
So…
Bixby:
A loner type, huh.
Link:
Well yeah. But I do remember him telling me, you know, we're having a
meeting down at, it was Old Columbia.11 That's what everyone called it
back then. And it was before Chris really wanted to stress the Karl Strauss
part of it.12 And then I still didn't want to go. I mean, their beer wasn't all
that great. Why would I want to go all the way downtown?
Downie:
00:13:29
How much was gas a gallon then?
Link:
00:13:36
Yeah, yeah, 30 cents. But then, you know, like I said, Paul Wesley followed
Greg. And Paul lived out here in Lakeside, and then Owen and Audrey kept
working on me and working on me. And then finally they convinced me to
go to a meeting at Callahan's.13 At the original Callahan's, this was in 1990.
Bixby:
00:14:03
That's your first time you went?
Link:
00:14:09
Uh-huh. And, you know, after like two to three meetings, you know, Paul
pretty much recruited me to take over. In those days you needed
someone, you know. And so, he kind of felt that I was trustworthy and
knew some things. But the club at that time was, I mean we had it from,
most of the guys were, like I talked about earlier, the extract corn sugar
brewers who are really interested in making liquid alcohol for as cheap as
they could make it.
Link:
00:14:44
And cheap was like the number one priority, truly. And I'm not trying to
just make fun of these guys, but that was it. Yeah. They can make 10 cent
pints of beer, man, they were in heaven. But we also had guys like Vinnie
Cilurzo, and John Thomas and Bob Whritner and Greg Schwaller, some of
the guys who really knew what they were doing, you know. So that was
pretty cool. And we'd have a little corner and bring in beers and taste them
and give remarks and stuff. And that was all pretty cool. But there was a
great deal of the club at the time that was not interested in going beyond,
you know, the kit type mentality. And I was. In fact most of the guys had
never even heard of the AHA. That was kind of my goal is get involved with
the AHA more.
Wesley served as second QUAFF president.
Karl Strauss’ Old Columbia Brewing Company. Original location on Columbia St. San Diego.
12
Chris Cramer, co-founder of Karl Strauss Brewing Company.
13
Callahan’s Pub & Brewery on Mira Mesa Blvd, San Diego.
10
11
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
6
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BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
Link:
00:15:39
And that was when we had our first club-only competition and it was a pale
ale and Whritner, Bob Whritner, was our representative and he got a
second place on the national level in that competition. That kind of lit
everyone up cause “Look, we do make good beer and we can get some
recognition, let's go for it.” And things got pretty exciting at that time and,
beer kinda got better. And you know, we had recently come across liquid
yeast, you know, a couple of years earlier, it seemed like it was ’87, ‘86,
something like that. So beer was getting much better and a lot more fun to
brew. I remember making great wort, just absolutely great man, this is the
best beer I've ever made. And then throwing in the packet of yeast and
when it comes out and like crap. It's just very disappointing. And then
Wyeast was the first pack of liquid yeast I remember.14 In smack packs.15
Lorton:
00:16:48
Is Bob still around here? Are you still in contact with him?
Link:
00:16:52
A little bit here and there. They spend, I'd say 90% of their time up in June
Lake, but they do have the place in Rancho Bernardo.
Lorton:
00:17:00
Yeah, I mean Bob would be a good guy to talk to you. I mean, he's really a
colorful guy. I think he's an ice scientist or something like that who would
go on cruises to research the Arctic. And alcohol is not permitted on a ship,
but you've got a bunch of scientists who are really creative, so yeah.
Bixby:
Better than prison brew.
Lorton:
Yeah. He would tell me about the breweries or the places to get beer in
Tromsø, Norway. You know, some of the story, and Bob is such a funny
guy. Somebody was talking about Bob at Peter's party too, it may have
been you.
Link:
00:17:50
Downie:
Bixby:
Yeah, it was probably me. We had dinner with them and Skip and Mary last
summer. Okay. About a year ago. Yeah, he's 80 years old now. He's getting
along a little slower as people do. Yeah.
Honestly, you can remember, remember what happened. That's it sounds
like he's probably, yeah. So he's definitely on my list of people to approach.
Mary Anne. When did you join QUAFF, you and Bix?
00:18:24
I think it was like ‘92 or so but I remember going to meetings at La Jolla
Brewing on Fay Street.16
Yeast laboratory.
Smack-pack yeast packaging contains an internal activator packet to break open before adding to the wort.
16
Fay Avenue, La Jolla.
14
15
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Cisneros and Judith Downie
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BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
Link:
Yeah, we moved there. Because Callahan's was too slow, too small.
Bixby:
So you went from Callahan’s to La Jolla and then back to Callahan’s.
Link:
Yeah. And then the PB Brewhouse.17
Lorton:
00:18:48
I remember my first meeting was at PB Brewhouse, but it was there
because Skip was the brewer there and he was doing a tour. And that was
probably May or June of ‘94 because I was lucky enough to win best in
show for the AFC.18 And so they said, yeah, why don't you come to a
meeting? But I think the normal meeting place at that point was La Jolla
Brewing on Fay Street. Yeah.
Bixby:
00:19:21
That's where I first started. Yeah. That little back room. Isn't that where
you gave your slide presentation on?
Link:
00:19:26
No, the slide was at the expanded Callahan's. Well, when we first started at
Callahan's, it was just that one room and we couldn't close it off to the
public, you know, so we'd have our meeting and the public and it was not,
just not.
Downie:
Not when you are passing out beer.
Link:
Well, and the club started to grow. I mean we would have, you know, a lot
of nights we'd have 15 or 20 people, but then there was one year at the
Del Mar Fair where it got a lot of visibility and the next meeting there was
like 40 people and it was like standing room only. It's like, wow, we can't
do this anymore. And, and, and La Jolla Brewing Company was just opening
and they had a nice big back room. It's like October of 1990. And, so then
we moved there. They only lasted a year, a year and a half. And Callahan's
had expanded so they had a room that they could close off for us. So that
was nice. So we went back there and then, then PB Brew House had, but
we actually met in the brewery as I recall it. Didn't we?
Lorton:
00:20:48
I remember Skip. That first meeting, that was the only QUAFF meeting that
I went to that was PB Brew House. But Skip had a tour.
Link:
They weren't there very long.
Lorton:
No. And Skip was, he was the president at the time and you know, showing
how everything was done. That's the only, only time. And again, that was
May or June of 1994.
17
18
Pacific Beach Brewhouse, on Mission Boulevard, San Diego.
America’s Finest City home brewers competition. 1994 was the first year.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
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BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
Bixby:
Was Dion after Skip then?19
Link:
Yes.
Lorton:
I think Ted Newcomb.
Link:
Oh, Ted.
Bixby:
Oh, Ted. And then Skip then Dion?
Lorton:
Yeah. And then Todd.
Link:
I think Ted was a one year.
Lorton:
Yeah, I've got a list of who is president after from Skip on. So, when I get
home I'm now going to pull it out [inaudible].
Downie:
Wow. Yeah. That's so great. At what point would you say QUAFF actually
formalized, ‘cause you said you were kind of recruited into the presidency
and it sounds like maybe you kind of recruited Skip to be your relief at
some point.
Link:
It’s kind of still that way. [Laughter]
Bixby:
Are we really formalized?
Link:
What does that mean?
Downie:
Bylaws…
Lorton:
00:22:00
You know, Rich will go to the restroom. Okay quick. Let's decide on
president. Rich. Oh, it's unanimous. Come back from the restroom. “Hey
Rich, congratulations you’re president.”
Downie:
The moral there is don't leave the room.
Lorton:
Yeah. You know when I became president and Peter was the president, it
was Todd Fitzsimmons then Peter and then me. But it was always the case
as well. You know, Peter's kind of taking over the stuff that Todd was
doing. So Peter is kind of a natural guy for that and I think I kind of fell into
the same thing. And Harold Gulbransen was after me and so he got in there
and then Bob McKay.
19
Dion Hollenbeck.
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Cisneros and Judith Downie
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BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
Bixby:
00:22:25
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
My impression has always been, the president has always fallen into that
position. It's like, man…
Link:
I think there was one year.
Bixby:
willing to do the job to, to pick up, you know, to take up the reins and go
for it. And, and we've been very, very fortunate in my tenure. I mean, I
mean my time with QUAFF to have some really good people dedicated.
Link:
00:23:11
But there was one year where we had a vote at a club vote.
Bixby:
Oh you remember that, who was this then?
Link:
Well, I think that was Skip’s second term, but we dodged the bullet. And I
think that thought, cause I was, when I handed it off to Skip, you know, we
would have essentially closed board meetings and I said “I nominate Skip.”
And that was pretty much it. Yeah. Yeah. And then something came up
about voting for it, and it was hard to, hard to argue on that point, but we
did. But boy, there was something close. I remember that was something
that was averted.
Link:
00:24:05
Bixby:
Yeah, but since then I remember, I think when Todd was president, there
was some kind of czar-ish directive. [Laughter]
Czar-ish, it that what you said?
Lorton:
00:24:22
Well we, you know, when I was on the board from the time I was the
newsletter editor from ‘96 on and ‘til I became president, but it was always
a board decision on what the officers were going to be rather than, and we
would put it up to the meeting if, you know, the board has decided that
this should be the slate of officers. Does anybody have any objection or,
you know, I think, I can't recall if we actually said all those in favor, say aye
and everybody would go “Give me another beer, aye.” You know?
Downie:
00:24:56
Then everybody had an opportunity to say something, so it wasn't
completely closed or anything.
Lorton:
00:25:01
Well, and the other thing is that the people who were really interested in
how the club was running were the board members.
Bixby:
00:25:07
That's true. Yeah. No, that's a good statement. Yeah.
Downie:
A process of natural selection.
Bixby:
Yes, and those who are actually doing most of the work.
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Cisneros and Judith Downie
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BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
Lorton:
I think that’s the way it continues now.
Bixby:
Yes, and we've tried to get more newer board members, we want QUAFF
to continue.
Downie:
Right.
Bixby:
And we've been throwing it out there over and over, you know, but people
are reluctant to, they have their own lives. This is not, you know, like any
group. It's a volunteer kind of position. So try to get some of these young
people, we have, we have several very great new ideas and so on. I love
that part. I just want it to continue. I love QUAFF so much.
Lorton:
You know, you haven't been a one of the senior officers.
Bixby:
Never, not yet.
Link:
[Showing photograph] So that was the original room at Callahan.
Downie:
That's wonderful.
Bixby:
Can I see that?
Lorton:
I’ve got to see that too.
Link:
And then they added on that section right there where they could actually
rope it off.
Lorton:
Yeah, I remember we had one meeting. There was a point at which we
were kind of, we kind of hit a minimum and I remember Harold Gulbransen
was giving a talk and it was in October and he was competing with the
World Series which was on the TV screen behind him.
Bixby:
Which was hard for him as one eye was probably on the Series and one eye
on the…That’s really great. You have a date on the back too?
Lorton:
This guy is much more…
Link:
I would say this is probably about 92-ish. This is not like the photos when
we were kids that had the date on the back or on the margins.
Downie:
20
00:26:44
Well of course I am trying to work with Lee at Callahan’s and he can
probably give me some dates. 20 I would hope he would remember QUAFF’s
presence.
Lee Doxtader, co-founder of Callahan’s and San Diego Brewing Company
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Cisneros and Judith Downie
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BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
Bixby:
Was Lee around that long ago? Oh my, [another photograph] well that's…
Downie:
Chris with Karl Strauss.
Bixby:
Yeah. Yeah. I remember one of those is a beer dinners they had. I actually
sat at the table with Karl and his wife. It was kind of fun.
Bixby:
00:27:48
I think they still have the same chef.
Link:
You know, I think so.
Bixby:
Gunther.
Downie:
You even remember his name.
Bixby:
Good food!
Link:
I knew I had a picture.
Bixby:
Yeah. That's great.
Downie:
00:28:03
So. the pictures are wonderful. I mean that would be something that I
would be interested in digitizing, giving you copies of the digital files.
Link:
00:28:09
Most of those are pre-digital, so they're just going to be…
Downie:
Negatives floating around, if you still have the negatives.
Link:
They’re somewhere. Yeah, it's tough.
Downie:
00:28:22
It is. I'm going through my parents’ things and my mother was, you know, a
historian at heart and I actually, when I was emptying out the house, I
found up on the very highest shelf in the entry hall closet, so, of course
that's where the heat all rises. Six eight-millimeter films, pre-sound. My
parents' wedding day. My cousins, there's actually some of me, I took them
to ScanDiego and they were able to salvage pretty much everything and
digitize them. So, I have to give my family, you know, pictures, you know,
the films on a DVD and say, here you go. And if anybody, I filled in what I
knew what I could recognize and some of them I had to kind of
guesstimate the date saying, well, okay, I'm in there. So, I know that had to
be this year, but I'm not in that one and this cousin looks younger, so it was
probably a couple of years earlier. And I've asked the family, of course, you
know, probably none of them have actually stopped and taken the time to
look at the DVDs. If I put them online like in Dropbox and link them and
said, here, go look at these and you know, give me some feedback. They'd
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
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BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
probably do that. But you know, a lot of people don't have DVD players
even anymore.
Link:
DVD?
Downie:
Yeah, I do have the online digital files.
Link:
That’s our media now.
Downie:
Yeah, for me. I've got DVD player and stuff.
Bixby:
[to Lorton] Which one did you get?
Lorton:
Get Thee to a Nunnery. 21
Bixby:
I’m telling you, that is going to be one of my new favorites.
Link:
00:29:42
Did you try the English [inaudible]?
Lorton:
Oh, the Banksy?
Link:
No, the [inaudible].
Lorton:
No I didn’t.
Link:
What was it, something about all night or midnight or something. Down
Through the Night?
Bixby:
We'll wait for you if you go get a beer.
Loron:
I'm just going to say…
Link:
Well now you can talk about me…
Lorton:
Let me check on my record to see if I...
Link:
Quite frankly, there were a lot of QUAFF members at that time that didn't
like what I was doing and they stopped coming. But I think it was the right
thing to do to make QUAFF more....
Bixby:
What years were you in?
Link:
I was president in 1990. So for two years.
21
Beer name.
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Cisneros and Judith Downie
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BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
Lorton:
Yeah. I had the same experience.
Bixby:
I must have this come in on the end of you. I don't remember being
displeased.
Link:
Well, I think people like us, we're happy with the direction it’s going. But
the guys that were making the 10 cent pints, were not.
Bixby:
Oh, there is a different mentality. When you talk to people across the,
yeah, it's a different mentality.
Lorton:
00:30:52
Bixby:
Lorton:
I mean there was a group, they were complaining, “Oh, you guys are too
focused on competition.”
But it was, I never thought it was, so much as focus on competitions is
focusing on bettering your craft is what it was. And so the competitions
were feedback. I always looked at it in a totally different way.
00:31:14
Well, it depends on your perspective ‘cause I agree totally with you.
Link:
But, there were a lot of members even after the exodus in my period, there
were still a lot of members thought we were too fixated on competitions.
And I would just tell them don't worry about it. Yeah.
Downie:
You don't have to participate. It can be a goal for some.
Bixby:
Yeah, yeah.
Link:
Just learn from it. Come and enjoy it. What did you want?
Bixby:
Another Nun.
Lorton:
00:31:59
Let me know what that British beer was Rich that you said if I had…
Link:
Oh, it’s Down through the Night, a British Strong.
Lorton:
Oh okay, now I haven’t had that.
Bixby:
You know, I live so close, I should have had everything here.
Lorton:
You know, getting drunk has no appeal to me.
Bixby:
No, no, no, no, no. You know, that's not the point.
Lorton:
I know a lot of people who, “Oh yeah,” like get, well, I mean, but I'm not one
of them.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
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BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
Bixby:
You get drunk, you can't taste another good beer.
Lorton:
Yeah, I get headaches the next morning. You know, if it's too much, the bed
starts spinning around.
Bixby:
It’s been a long time since that happened.
Lorton:
I was just going to say, that's when I was a wine person.
Downie:
00:32:34
So, Mary Anne, tell me about Mead Day and the celebration at your house.
Bixby:
00:32:40
You know I cannot remember the first time I did it. You’re kind of, like have
some trust you know, in your reminisces.
Lorton:
00:32:48
The unfortunate thing is a lot of my memory is actually in the newsletters
that I did. And I don't know if my newsletters predate mead day and I'm
trying to remember where else we were. I told Judith that Frank Golbeck
came to one of our mead days a few years ago.
Bixby:
But I'd had them before Frank came along.
Lorton:
They were quite, I don't know how, I don't remember. It just seems like a
long time we have done this. And it's the national mead day, which is the
first Saturday in August, which is kind of hot in El Cajon usually, which is an
understatement. But sometimes it rained a couple times, but other than
that…
Lorton:
I told her about Death Mead Day.
Downie:
Yeah. I heard about the Death Mead and anything called Death Mead Day
is definitely a must attend.
Lorton:
What kind of alcoholic beverage do you want to not drink a whole lot of
when its hot?
Bixby:
I know it. [Laughter]
Link:
00:33:54
At least it’s not Imperial Stout Day.
Lorton:
It’s stronger than Imperial Stout.
Bixby:
It's been fun over the years. And, we had one guy who was, owned the
Downtown Johnny Brown's, for a while and he made mead cocktails and
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
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BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
brought them to Mead Day.22 So even that was fun. We has meads from all
over the place.
Lorton:
00:34:19):
Yeah, we started Mead Day probably when AHA started recognizing it. It
wouldn’t surprise me because we were into meads back in the early 2000s,
late 1990s.23
Bixby:
I should check on the original when AHA started that cause they used to
have an official recipe. So, it was like, okay, my garage wasn't so full at the
time. So we used to make mead in the garage, which kept all the mess and
the stickiness right there. And the, and I would…
Lorton:
The bees.
Bixby:
…clean out. Well we did have that.
Lorton:
When you make mead, if you do it outside, you get bees.
Bixby:
Oh yeah.
Downie:
There's a cautionary tale.
Link:
You come in the garage, you get, come on, really? Get outta here.
Lorton:
Yeah, they like honey.
Bixby:
But there was an official recipe and I tried to encourage people, you know,
this is the official recipe we're going to do. And since I was hosting it hard
for me to make it, but I'm trying to get other people to do it and we, we
had some pretty good meads.
Lorton:
Yeah. Well, there's always…
Bixby:
Hot or not. I mean it was never blasting.
Lorton:
Yeah. There's always, always more meads. You end up with a whole bunch
leftover when we’re done.
Bixby:
Yeah, because I tried to collect not just the ones on my travels, but some of
the competition meads, even the ones where when we had the homebrew
competitions. Then they were like unknown cause I never got the printout
to say number whatever is such and such. So we just opened them. I still
have a few for this year from last year’s competitions.
22
23
Downtown Johnny Brown’s is a sports bar in downtown San Diego that was an early supporter of craft beer.
According to the Bay Area Society of Homebrewers, the first AHA Mead Day was 2002.
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BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
Lorton:
00:35:57
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
Yeah. So, you know, if we have a, if there's a competition, you know, the
idea is submit two bottles. If yours is the best in your category and there's
three to five categories, then that best in that category will go on and
compete for the best of show. But everything else is just a second bottle,
looking for a home.
Bixby:
[Inaudible] was my home for a long time.
Downie:
There's the advantage to having it at your house.
Bixby:
Well I didn't drink them, I saved them so we could share. Cause you never,
you didn't know what they were.
Lorton:
At your house. It was better than being at my house.
Bixby:
Oh maybe so.
Lorton:
But yeah. And it was good because I think at the time, and we’re still doing
this. There are quite a few people who are interested in being mead judges
and it's good to look at “Well, this mead isn't quite so good for this reason.
It's too hot and too, you know, too alcoholic”
Bixby:
Or no flavor.
Lorton:
Yeah. Things like that. So, but yeah, you know, I'm trying to remember if it
was at someplace besides your place when we first got started.
Bixby:
00:37:11
I don't know. I can't remember that. That's too far off. But I know I did it
because Bix was into making beer and mead making was similar to wine
making. So, it interested me. And so, I started making mead.
Link:
With your daughter?
Bixby:
You know, actually I, I know I did it before, but the only mead my daughter
and I ever made was in 2000 there's one bottle left. I have no idea how it
tastes. I hate to open it without her. If she could ever come to Mead Day, I
would open it. But she helped formulate the recipe.
Downie:
00:37:54
So good. Rich, have you ever done mead or cider?
Link:
00:37:56
Yeah, I did a few. It wasn't something that I really wanted to do much of
because I didn't drink a lot of mead. It was tough for me to, it was just
tough to drink that much mead. Yeah.
Bixby:
00:38:15
Are you a wine maker? I mean a wine drinker at all? You are?
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BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
Link:
00:38:20
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
Yeah.
Bixby:
You are.
Lorton:
I am not.
Link:
It is a lot easier for me to drink a bottle of wine than it was for mead. Mead
was just too much.
Lorton:
00:38:28
Yeah. I'm kind of the same way. You know, I go through periods when, “Oh,
that mead really tastes good. I need to make some.” And then I, you know,
I've made a whole bunch and okay and I've got to get rid of these bottles,
you know, and…
Bixby:
00:38:45
No, I agree. When your palate has tasted so many things, I've gone through
stages too. So you know, maybe I'm into a hop mood and maybe I'm not,
you know, or something like that.
Lorton:
00:38:57
Well, and for me, I have a beer with dinner and there aren't many foods
that don't go well with beer, but there are a lot of foods that don't go well
with wine or mead.
Bixby:
00:39:09
That's interesting. Cause I remember when all this pairing stuff, remember
when they were into the pairing and the food and the beer dinners and so
on. And that was one of the things I heard right from the beginning. The
guys, the chefs, saying not the drinkers, but the chefs would say, yeah, they
had an easier time with the beer.
Lorton:
00:39:30
Yeah. What kind of wine or me goes best with a hamburger or what kind of
pizza goes best with wine?
Downie:
00:39:40
Well, I have to say when I was in the Craft Beer Expo last September and
did the chocolate and beer pairing with Bill Sysak. Saturday morning at
9:00 AM, I'm sitting there with chocolate and beer in front of me going,
“This is something real wrong, cause I'm not that big a beer drinker.” But
Bill made the argument that the carbonation in beer actually because it
cuts through the fatty of the foods, makes for a better drink with any food.
Link:
00:40:10
That’s why it’s so much better with cheese than wine is, you know, the
whole wine thing is wine and cheese. Well no, it doesn't work as well as
beer.
Downie:
00:40:18
And with wine, until you get into this whole, you've got red, you've got
white, you've got these very distinct strong categories where with beer
there seems to be a, because of the hops and things, there seem to be a
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BIXBY, AND GREG
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more consistent thread through it. So, it just seems to be more all-purpose
maybe, I am not explaining it very well.
Lorton:
00:40:36
Well, I mean there's so many, I mean beer is such a much more diverse
than wine.
Link:
00:40:42
I've had arguments with wine makers about that. Oh you know, wine does
this. So there's so many variations. And I said, okay, let's just talk about
beer, the different kinds of malts, the different kinds of hop, different kinds
of yeast. It's like infinite. Yeah, it's, it's truly infinite. Wine. Like you said,
you got your reds and whites, you got blends and stuff, but they only got
about five or six different categories. Really.
Bixby:
00:41:12
That was fun for me to watch. The homebrewing community really affect
what we drink now because the guys had no limits. And so, we had people
making beer with Jolly Ranchers or something from the grocery store,
cereal bins, or something like that.24 And then these ideas just kind of, I
think progress and what the creativity is, was part of the whole thing.
That's what I love. And then of course the gadgetry, I was in love with the
gadgetry. Oh my gosh you guys…
Link:
There were a lot of engineers and scientists that brew.
Bixby:
It was beautiful. That's what I love. I did love that part. That so much.
Lorton:
Bixby:
24
25
00:41:56
Yeah. And you see that in commercial brewing now. I mean, if you look at
the new things that the brewers are making, you know, I went to a golf and
beer festival a couple of weeks ago or a couple of months ago, eight
breweries where there, you know, Stone, Mother Earth, Mike Hess,
Latitude 33, five of those eight had a citrus IPA. You know, three years ago
how many citrus IPAs were out there? Ballast Point was there with
Grapefruit Sculpin. Latitude 33 had their Blood Orange IPA. Stone had
Tangerine IPA, but three years ago, how many citrus IPAs were out there,
and then all these new things are coming along. Man, that Blood Orange
IPA from Latitude 33 is so good. Went up to Double Peak a couple of weeks
ago and came back to a Japanese restaurant, a sushi bar, and they had, you
know, Asahi, Kirin, Sapporo and this “blood orange stuff that we can't get
rid of.”25 “Oh, I'll take that one. Is that from Latitude 33?” “I don't know I’ll
check. Yes, it's from Latitude 33.”
Interesting.
Hard candy in intense fruit flavors.
Double Peak Park in San Marcos, California.
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BIXBY, AND GREG
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Downie:
00:43:17
Interesting that they wouldn't. Of course when somebody goes to a sushi
restaurant, they probably want to drink culturally appropriate beer.
Lorton:
00:43:24
This was in San Marcos, not far from where, you know, Homebrew Mart,
whatever, Beer and Wine Crafts was located.
Bixby:
It’s San Diego County after all.
Lorton:
Oh man, it went so well, I had tempura so…
Link:
Are you grasping the hops nowadays? I ‘cause we used to have…
Lorton:
Yeah.
Link:
You know, arguments. I really mean ‘cause I would hop my beers.
Bixby:
You two would?
Link:
Well exceedingly hoppy and you know, and it was way too hoppy for Greg.
Lorton:
I would like a beer with a little bit of diacetyl in it.
Link and Bixby:
Oh no!
Lorton:
A little bit is a lot. This guy, if you open a beer with that in it in the room…
Bixby:
He said it a long time ago and it sticks in my mind.
Link:
I'm across the room going alright, who opened that up? Get that outta
here!
Lorton:
Yeah, you and Skip. Well I normally like Belgian beers. I like non-hoppy
beers, but if I'm going to have a pizza, it's got to be an IPA. you know, I
really like a hoppy beer with pizza or hot chili.
Downie:
Spicy.
Lorton:
Yeah. Yeah. I haven't found a wine yet that goes well with those, but, and I
haven't looked real hard either. But you know, for a beer like for a food like
pizza or chili and I really kinda want a hoppy beer.
Link:
Chiantis, the Sangiovese with Pizza Hut. [Laughter]
Bixby:
There you go.
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Lorton:
Oh man. Your masculinity is just gone into that. [Laughter] Yeah. I stopped
being a wine person as soon as I discovered homebrewing. I haven't had a
wine in at least a year.
Bixby:
Oh, I’m afraid I am an all-purpose drinker.
Downie:
Since you have made wine…
Bixby:
It depends on it, whatever my mood is. Sometimes I am in the mood for
hops…
Link:
I don't discriminate against any alcohol.
Bixby:
Nor do I.
Lorton:
I don't have any wine in my house.
Bixby:
A good single malt scotch sometimes that’s what you want.
Lorton:
I’ve got a bottle of Laphroaig and Balmore in my refrigerator. I like them
cool. But, uh, no wine.
Bixby:
Oh dear.
Link:
00:45:45
So where did we leave off on the QUAFF?
Downie:
00:45:48
My questions were fairly generic here, so I'm just kind of looking. You've
talked about the growth of the membership, which I think really says
something. I do have other QUAFF past-presidents like Peter Zien to talk to
yet, but it sounds like you are still members of a very strong supportive
community and you know, you're very open minded too, except for that
one thing that you've talked about that you could smell it across the room.
It sounds like you're a super smeller.
Lorton:
Diacetyl, it’s butter, it’s buttery aroma.
Downie:
Okay.
Lorton:
Really good.
Bixby:
For me, it’s skunky. I’ll get the skunkiness out of anything, I hate it.
Link:
Great on popcorn. Not so good in beer.
Lorton:
But I mean Rich is one of these people that is, yeah…
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Bixby:
00:46:37
You know the thing you said about supportive, I think the key that I've
always found with QUAFF. Supportive, not just in the, oh, who needs help
brewing, but just in other ways too. When my husband died, I knew if I
needed something…I'm usually, I'm a loner and I'll do it myself kind of
thing. But I knew if I really needed something, I could call on somebody and
I had many offers. So, I think that's, that's what it became, well, I mean, I
said it in Sheldon’s movie.26 QUAFF to me was always a family, like a
second family.
Lorton:
00:47:16
I, then one thing that Rich brings is, I mean you've been all over the world
tasting beer and you know, you can talk about places in Brussels to go if
you want a good beer. Places, you know…
Bixby:
The knowledge you mean?
Lorton:
Yeah. Just, well experiencing those beers at the source. You know, for me,
my favorite beer city is Bamberg, Germany.
Bixby:
You like those malt beers.
Lorton:
I like it. You know, the majority of the breweries there don't make smoked
beers, but you know, they all make good beer and but yeah, I do love the
smoked beer. I mean almost as much as buttery beer.
Downie:
00:48:03
Where do you stand on smoked beer Rich?
Link:
00:48:06
I like it. Okay. Oh yeah. You do have common ground there somewhere.
Lorton:
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Link:
I mean there isn't a beer style that I hate unless they put cucumber in it.
[Laughter]
Bixby:
00:48:22
I might have to agree with you on that. Like cucumber water.
Link:
00:48:25
I haven't figured that one out yet.
Downie:
That does sound like it would be a mistake.
Link:
Yeah. But I see it on the shelves now.
Bixby:
Oh dear. Oh you do?
The movie referred to is SUDS County, USA, (2012), produced by Sheldon Kaplan about the San Diego craft beer
industry.
26
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BIXBY, AND GREG
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Link:
Yeah. Not kidding.
Lorton:
I'm trying to remember if at that beer festival I had one with cucumber in
it. In the competitions, I usually like to judge what we call weird beers,
which is fruit beers, spice or vegetable beers, specialty. And occasionally
you run into a cucumber. But I've had some cucumber beers lately. They
weren't bad, but cucumber is not my favorite. I guess that's a vegetable I
don’t know and uh, yeah, it's not, I've never made one with cucumber in it.
Bixby:
00:49:05
I like cucumbers but not in water and probably would not like it in beer.
Link:
00:49:09
People like it. And that's fine.
Bixby:
I’ve had asparagus beer that I thought was…
Link:
WOW. wow.
Bixby:
No, I know when I saw it the guys were saying this is at GABF and so, ”You
have to try this, you have to try that.”27 Oh, okay. And then it was done
perfectly. It's like how do you get asparagus in a beer and not have it like
be yucky or something? Although it did have the same effect after the fact,
as eating asparagus, unfortunately. [laughter]
Lorton:
Thank you. TMI.28 I’ve never had an asparagus beer. Or spinach
Bixby:
It’s interesting, the different beers, you know, you run into at GABF when
you're, when you're working in the back with all the beers. A job. I like.
Lorton:
Oh wow.
Link:
00:49:58
Bixby:
Link:
I remember an early QUAFF meeting and the guy brought in a beer that he
brewed based on some historical reading. He had dug up with bananas.
And he brought it up and we're tasting it. I'm going, “Oh my God. You
know, I've done everything I can to get banana tastes and flavors out of my
beers. Why would you intentionally put it in?”
That’s really interesting.
00:50:28
Historical significance? Okay. Don’t like it.
Lorton:
I've heard that.
Bixby:
Not on that Sumerian tablet, I’m sure.
27
28
Great American Beer Festival, Denver Colorado.
Too much information.
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BIXBY, AND GREG
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Downie:
A sacrifice for historical research. Well, there actually is in ancient Greece,
if a woman was having trouble nursing a child after birth, there was a
recipe involving worms crushed up in beer to correct the situation.
Bixby:
Oh, that's interesting. They could have minused the worms. I'm sure she
would have been happier.
Downie:
Yeah. Maybe. Maybe the worms were to keep her from drinking too much.
I don't know, but…
Bixby:
Maybe that's a good point.
Lorton:
00:51:08
You know, probably 15 years ago we were talking about cock ale. Randy
Barnes made a beer with chicken in it and it wasn't very good. He said,
well, okay, I made the cock ale and Randy, he's the guy who's the vice
president of educational services with a community college district.
Bixby:
He’s the dean or something.
Lorton:
Yeah, he's the kind of guy who would do it. He's the guy who you'd never
expect is a professional, if you ever ran into him.
Bixby:
That's right.
Lorton:
If, but I, yeah and he’s really…
Bixby:
Creative.
Lorton:
And he's really smart and with a sense of humor that just would never
stop.
Link:
00:51:51
Jim Koch told me about doing that once their little brewery back in
Boston.29 A pilot brewery. It wasn't so good.
Downie:
Yeah, it doesn't…
Link:
Throwing in chickens into the…
Bixby:
I can't even, why would you even consider that?
Downie:
Any meat product does not sound like it would…
Owner of Boston Beer Company which makes Sam Adams beer. This is a bit of sarcasm in referencing “their little
brewery.”
29
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BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
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Link:
There is some historical significance about it, which I couldn't even grasp.
Lorton:
Yeah, I didn't. Yeah, that's a good, I don't know.
Link:
Cause you know he based a lot of things on historical significance.
Lorton:
Yeah. Yeah.
Bixby:
Oh, I am going to have to read up on that now. Chicken and beer and see
what I get.
Lorton:
00:52:34
Cock Ale. Ask Randy. He would probably recall.
Bixby:
Why he would do, I don't know about the historical, maybe he would.
Lorton:
Well yeah, I can't remember how we got onto that, but it was enough that
it kind of sustained itself for a couple months.
Downie:
00:52:50
That's something I'm seeing here in your stories is the fact that you're
supportive of each other, that you've kept in touch with each other, that
you've had fun.
Bixby:
00:53:03
Oh my gosh. I don't know about these guys, but I had a blast probably, you
know, I'm, I married a guy who was kinda quiet, not a social kind of person.
In fact, even now when I'm thinking about him after a couple, you know, a
year and a half, it's like I look up, you know, Asperger's in adults. I go, that
sounds like my man. No, he just was not a social kind of guy, but QUAFF,
there was a home for him in QUAFF and everybody seemed to accept him
and he felt, you know, quote end quote loved there, whatever you want to
call it. That was just the right place to be. I mean, it just, for us as geeky,
nerdy, whatever you want to call us, we fit.
Lorton:
00:53:45
Well, and the other thing is that, you know, one of the reasons I really like
making beer as opposed to making wine is that when I was married, I had a
brother-in-law who was a real wine snob and he was a spirits snob, and
you know, it was, it just grated on me. And you know, beer people aren't
like that. Well, you know, most beer people aren't.
Bixby:
00:54:13
But do you think so? I don't think they are.
Link:
There are some, but yeah, there's you know…
Lorton:
There are a few that say, well, I'm not going to drink that.
Bixby:
00:54:23
Even the women who drink wine a lot, they’ll drink beer now and then.
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Link:
00:54:27
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
Any, aspect of, like cheese or hamburger, anything. People are purist
people. Yeah.
Lorton:
You have people in QUAFF who will say, “I'm not gonna drink a Ballast
Point beer because they're owned by Constellation Brands. Or I'm not
going to buy a…”, you know, yeah.
Downie:
Well, that can go back to when gas hit a dollar a gallon. People saying, “I'm
not buying any more gas. Well, I'd like to see you try.”
Lorton:
00:54:56
That’s the nice thing, in beer is a much more community, you know, it,
it's…
Bixby:
00:55:01
I'm not sure what it is across the country ‘cause I don't know anywhere
else, but San Diego and I just feel they've been cooperative and giving.
Lorton:
00:55:12
I think it’s like that in most places, yeah.
Link:
Mm-hum.
Bixby:
00:55:14
I mean, I know when I've traveled all these years with Bix, we always of
course, stopped at breweries nearby, right. If not aimed towards them
specifically. That if you start talking to the guys, and I always like just sitting
at the bar talking to who brews this. And then pretty soon somebody
comes out. Oh, let me show you my tanks. And it's usually, like Peter, and
like AleSmith started out with dairy tanks or something and I, and I had to
weld this and I had to do that and I go, Oh yeah. So that's just a different…
Lorton:
00:55:50
It's like that all over the country. It, and it was funny because when I was
teaching business classes that you'd have marketing people who didn't
know beer saying, well, you know, there's not a lot of cooperation among
competitors in an industry. And I say, well, you need to look at the brewing
industry because you know, like, when there was a hop shortage eight
years ago, you know, some brewers were giving hops to others or selling at
a low price to allow them to continue. Sam Adams was selling hops, at
their, you know, their costs as opposed to what the price was. You know,
when there was the hop shortage.
Bixby:
Oh, cause they had the option.
Link:
Well, they bought futures, future contracts.
Lorton:
I mean, look at all the homebrew clubs. I was looking at the names of some
of those clubs, like Brewers United for Real Potables in Virginia, the
Greater Denver Yeast Infection and you know, Maltose Falcons and, you
know, playing on the Maltese Falcon.
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BIXBY, AND GREG
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Bixby:
That’s a good one.
Lorton:
There’s Foam on the Brain here. And you know, QUAFF there, there's so
many funny names that Strange Brew in Oregon, you know, and in all
kinds, Urban Knaves of Grain, in Chicago. Yeah, I mean there's so many
funny names, so. Yeah. And that's because that's how brewers are. They,
you know, Hey, you know, this is fun. You know, we're not taking it too
seriously. We are, you know, really studying, brewing, but it's for fun, you
know.
Bixby:
Seems you know, that'd be a good lesson all over.
Link:
00:57:42
Lorton:
I think is just more of a social fun drink than spirits.
If I'm going to go to a place where I'm going to have a drink with other
people and I have to go home, I'm going to have a beer. I'm not going to
have a, you know, scotch on the rocks, you know, I'm not gonna to do that,
you know?
Bixby:
00:58:01
Well, there is a group that would do that. You know, what do they think
about, you know, my martini for dinner and scotch after or…
Lorton:
00:58:11
Beer seems like it's a much more sociable drink that let's go have a beer.
Bixby:
More for the common man and we're all just common man. I don’t know, I
don’t know what the deal is.
Lorton:
You know, maybe a lower alcohol and a…
Link:
Yes, lower alcohol. You get a pint. You can drink for a half hour or more
and still drive home.
Lorton:
Even if your home is like a mile away or so.
Link:
Yeah, right up there.
Bixby:
00:58:35
Mine is max 10 minutes. And that's taking the slow road here.
Lorton:
00:58:42
Well, yeah, I was gonna say when I went to Mead Day last year, I came
here first and then I got on the road and I was driving and some guy’s really
slow SUV or something or a Leer truck. Oh, it's Teresa and Rich. Oh, they're
going to the same place I’m going.
Link:
00:59:03
It was after a day at Mead Day we decided to stop here. Yeah.
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Lorton:
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
Well I did it before, which was probably a little bit of a mistake. Yeah.
Downie:
00:59:15
Well, one final thing I'd like to ask about…the increase of women in
brewing, are you seeing that reflected in the membership in QUAFF?
Link:
00:59:28
I can't talk to that cause I haven't been to a QUAFF meeting.
Bixby:
I would, I would say no. I mean I belong to SUDS.
Downie:
The San Diego sorority.
Bixby:
Yeah. Yeah. And those women are not involved in commercial brewing.
They are, it's not like the Pink Boots, it's more that they want to do their
own thing. They know what they're doing and like, they do know what
they're doing in spite of what you guys might think, <interjected denials
from Link and Lorton> these girls do know what they're doing. In fact, I
was, you know, it's really interesting cause when Juli first, Juli Goldenberg,
first came up with the idea for this group, she talked at a QUAFF meeting
and I said, “Oh shoot, you know, I grew up in the 60s we'd marched for
equal rights, we burned our bras, we did all this kind of stuff.30 And why do
we want to separate, you know, why do we want it something separate?”
And Harold, I know I mentioned that to Harold, he goes, why don’t you just
get involved in that? Why don't you see what they're all about? Cause
something, I dunno what it was that he saw. So I thought. Okay. And I went
and I was really impressed because they knew what they wanted to do. He
knew about brewing, they had been brewing, they just wanted a group
that wasn't going to be intimidating. And I went to a talk when we had our
last <inaudible> conference here was in 2015 and it was about women.
And that whole idea was a panel discussion on, I thought it was absolutely
excellent cause there were groups of women from different women's
groups across the country talking about that whole idea. And one other
woman my age, as she appeared to be, got up and said, “Why do we want
to be separated” and I go, “Oh gosh, that's what I voiced.”
Bixby:
01:01:39
But then the group panel kind of, you know, said because when we do stuff
with the guys they want to take over, you know, it's a natural…
Link:
You’re a minority. It's tougher.
Bixby:
Thank you very much.
Lorton:
Well, no, no true.
30
San Diego Suds Sorority, a women-only home brewer group formed within QUAFF. AKA SDSS (pronounced Suds).
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Bixby:
In the brewing community. Yes. Not in life. Okay, that's true. So it's like
what do we know about the science or the whole art of brewing? And they
said this way, you know, we have this, this separateness that we can kind
of teach each other and have this open kind of a... And one of the ladies
said, “All guys were asking if they could come and join. Yes, you can come
and be part of it, but you have to sit over there and be eye candy.”
<laughter>
Link:
And don’t talk.
Bixby:
Yeah. And if we need something lifted.
Downie:
I was going to say there might be something of the chivalry aspect where
that's big as, you're a little woman and let me help you with that.
Bixby:
But I thought that was a very interesting topic and it was pertinent too.
And I, since I joined the SDSS and have been part of that, I've been totally
impressed with the beers that come out of there. And the girls, they're
just, they're fun.
Lorton:
01:02:59
Yeah. Well, if you look at who won this year at International Beer Festival, I
mean Liz Chism is the brewer at Council.31 She's the one who made the
beer that won. And…
Bixby:
01:03:11
it's nice that her husband Curtis really makes a point of that is not, he's not
intimidated. So for me he has a lot of…
Lorton:
01:03:20
Well it was a little bit of a mind change too for me that, ‘cause I thought
Curtis was the brewer.
Bixby:
01:03:29
I knew from the beginning.
Lorton:
01:03:30
He clarified that with me. That Liz is the one who brews, she's the one who
makes the recipes.
Bixby:
So that's very impressive. She's very good at…
Lorton:
Oh yeah. Yeah. I've judged with both of them and she definitely, I mean it
was clear that she really understands.
Bixby:
31
32
01:03:46
I don’t know, I don't see, I mean I don't know what Pink Boots says.32 I
know there's women in the industry, but as far as home brewing, I don't
see a big enough presence in QUAFF. And I don't know if it's intimidation. I
San Diego International Beer Festival. Council Brewing Company in San Diego.
Pink Boots Society, an organization for women and non-binary individuals in the fermentation industries.
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don't think so. I don't, I think it's like what's more important in your life?
What's going on? Do you need to…
Link: ;
The time that you have available, its pretty easy to go order a beer.
Bixby:
You know, a guy is going to go out, that's his thing. You know, where a
woman might say I got, especially if she has kids and then she's got a job
and then she's got a house and I'm sorry guys. But it's still that way you're
as the female, you're still the one that, because it's your nest and it's, and
that's okay. It's just, you know, when I was growing up it's like gender
equality, course, you know, I will always be for financial equality, but you
know, these days there is no gender equality. We are different and that's
okay. And once we get past that then we can go on.
Lorton:
01:04:53
Well, you know, before the Industrial Revolution, women were the ones
who made beer. You know, that was part…
Bixby:
01:05:00
That way before, cause you guys were doing the, catching those
mammoths and whatever else you guys, you know.
Lorton:
01:05:09
So you know, that was their job. I think. Yeah, it's unfortunate. I think that,
you know, there is this, still you know, homebrewing is still predominantly
a male kind of thing. The other thing that I think is surprising, and I didn't
realize this until after I'd started all grain brewing is I'm essentially cooking,
you know? Yeah. Here I am in the kitchen, slaving over a hot stove.
<laughter> I'm cooking. So, yeah. And you know, and I realize, I'm creating
recipes thinking, okay... <brief interruption by the server.>
Downie:
You did want your crowler. Don’t forget.
Bixby:
Oh that’s right, cause I'm going to the meeting tomorrow.
Lorton:
Oh, and for Mead Day, I went to a new meadery last week in Vista.
Bixby:
Which one?
Lorton:
Twisted Horn.
Bixby:
I've heard of that. How was it?
Lorton: Yeah, they had some good meads. I'm waiting for Billy to open his
meadery.33
Bixby:
33
Me too.
Billy Beltz, owner of Lost Cause Meadery.
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Cisneros and Judith Downie
30
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�RICH LINK, MARIANNE
BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
Lorton:
…and he's going to be in Miramar. That's going to be something.
Link:
What’s the name of it?
Lorton:
Lost Cause.
Link:
Isn’t there another meadery just opened there?
Lorton:
Well, Twisted Horn. Oh, it's Serendipity Cider is there.
Bixby:
He’s in the same spot is as...
Lorton:
And I think he's been having some regulatory problems, but there are four
meaderies. There's also one called Mediocrity.
Bixby:
01:06:51
Yeah. And then the Bronto group guys.
Lorton:
Oh, I haven't heard that one.
Bixby:
Yeah, they're not making good stuff. Mediocrity is okay.
Lorton:
I have not tried theirs.
Bixby:
They're like up in there. They're okay.
Link:
Are they like mediocre? <laughter>
Bixby:
I don't know why somebody would choose that name.
Lorton:
We were talking about how about Black Plague as a name for a brewery?34
Link:
Yeah.
Bixby:
I'm not sure where these guys come up with this stuff, but…
Lorton:
01:07:18
Well, Twisted Horn is a big Viking thing. And they're in the area with all the
Vista breweries.
Bixby:
Were they on the sweet side or no, is Viking sweet?
Lorton:
No, they were semi-sweet. But they had, you know, they had like, it was
posted Horn Mead and Cider and I only tried the meads but they had
probably six meads to choose from. The one I liked the best was a
34
Black Plague Brewing Company, opened in Oceanside in Jully 2017.
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Cisneros and Judith Downie
31
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�RICH LINK, MARIANNE
BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
blueberry melomel, but they had various collections. I'll bring some, I'll
stop by there and get a small growler to bring by. But yeah, on Lost Cause, I
mean when they get situated there's going to be five breweries and
meaderies literally across the street from each other.35
Bixby:
And sake.
Lorton:
Okay. Yeah. Cause I mean Two Kids, Align, what’s that, Thunderhawk? And
there’s another one, Projector?
Bixby:
I know.
Downie:
There's Protector.
Link:
Protector. That’s the one, they're not a meadery?
Lorton:
I don't think they are.
Bixby:
Protector. Now see that's not one I have heard of. I can't keep up. These
guys are moving too fast.
Lorton:
01:08:32
Well yeah, I've got to talk with my son cause my son likes to make mead
and…
Bixby:
01:08:38
Oh, his son made the best. I'm sorry, I'm sorry Greg, but his bouchet was
wonderful.
Lorton:
Bouchet is a mead that's made from caramel from sugar that's been, or
honey that's been carmelized.
Downie:
Ooh.
Bixby:
01:08:55
And you know I tasted one at Mike Buck’s. Mike Buck made one that was
really good too.
Lorton:
Yeah. I made one. But it was kind of underdone.
Bixby:
Yeah, your son's was…
Lorton:
Yeah, he made a good one. It was distinctive.
Bixby:
I can definitely remember one. Mine just tasted really good at the
beginning, getting at all those bubblegum flavors and all that. And then it
just dissipated. Okay. That's not non distinct.
35
The street referred to is Miralani Drive in San Diego.
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Cisneros and Judith Downie
32
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�RICH LINK, MARIANNE
BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
Lorton:
Right. Unfortunately, mine is gone, long gone, so I don't know what…
Bixby:
Mine's gone too.
Lorton:
That tastes like. But yeah, that area, that Miralani Drive is…
Bixby:
I know and it's getting…
Link:
01:09:38
Oh, they're all organic.36 Organic.
Lorton:
Okay.
Downie:
Yeah. I was just looking at them last night.
Bixby:
Oh dear. So what’s not organic about honey?
Lorton:
True.
Link:
They’re not a meadery, they’re a brewery.
Bixby:
Oh. Oh.
Downie:
And probably the biggest challenge is organic hops.
Bixby:
01:10:02
Oh, that makes sense. So is anybody doing that locally? Organic hops? I
mean, how many local hops growers do we have? We have Star B…37
Lorton:
Well, I would guess I met with a guy from Star B one time and we were
talking about you know, meads, but you know, it wouldn't surprise me. 38
And there's an article in West Coaster I think this month about Star B also.
Bixby:
Is there?
Lorton:
Yeah. Get the West Coaster here.
Bixby:
Is it in there?
Lorton:
01:10:34
Yeah. Okay. But yeah, you know, I think one of the interesting things is, you
know, looking at businesses and that's one thing that I've been trying to
Referring to Protector Brewery.
Star B is a ranch and hop farm in Ramona, California.
38
Probably referring to Eric March who was an owner.
36
37
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
33
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�RICH LINK, MARIANNE
BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
study a lot is you know, what's the factors lead to success in business. And
you know, we see that, okay, apparently Lightning is selling all their stuff.39
Bixby:
01:11:01
Yeah. I don't know what, Jim, I think is too academic or…40
Lorton:
No marketing at all.
Bixby:
Yeah. I think, I mean, he was a great brewer and all that and I loved it. He
was a great guy.
Lorton:
01:11:11
But did you see Intergalactic is looking at maybe getting it, you need to get
the West Coaster.41
Downie:
01:11:18
And the Intergalactic website is saying that they are definitely taking a
different direction, whether it's to close or…
Bixby:
Lorton:
No kidding.
01:11:26
There's an article on it.
Link:
I heard that last Friday
Lorton:
And you know, I think the way to go in the future is just do it small. You
know, don't they expect to conquer the world?
Bixby:
01:11:40
You mean don't start thinking Ballast Point billion dollars-ish. I think that's
going to do you in, ‘cause we are San Diego and you would like some of our
local, um…
Lorton:
01:11:53
There's also an interview with Jim Crute in that and he says if he was ever
to get back in the business it would be as a nanobrewery making a small
amount of beer for a localized customer base.
Bixby:
01:12:07
Like, like local English pub kind of thing made locally.
Link:
Like this here.42
Bixby:
Oh well like, yeah, they don't want to screw this up because this is too
close to my house. And I know it's a bit like, I don't even have to go to
Santee. I'm right here.
Lightning Brewery in Poway, California.
Jim Crute, owner of Lightning Brewery.
41
Intergalactic Brewing Company. The West Coaster was a local beer-focused publication. Its online presence has
been archived at https://archives.csusm.edu/westcoastersd/.
42
Referring to Burning Beard.
39
40
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
34
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BIXBY, AND GREG
LORTON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2017-07-09
Lorton:
Like I was telling Judith that El Cajon was pretty much a beer desert.
Bixby:
Oh, you don't even go there. I know how many times I was like, “Oh, the
Bostonia Ballroom, that huge building there.43 I thought that's a great place
for some fun.” Well, no, now I don't know what they're doing over there.
Link:
Yeah, that area is…
Bixby:
Don't say that. There's where I live. I don't know what's going on in that
area.
Link:
It’s a commercial area.
Bixby:
I mean, I don't know what's happening with El Cajon in general.
Lorton:
It’s a great place to visit, but not to live. <laughter>
Bixby:
Find me a house in La Mesa so I can walk to a coffee.
Lorton:
Yeah. But you’re east of that, right? You're closer to Alpine than anybody
else here.
Bixby:
01:13:10
Yeah. I am close to Alpine.
Bixby:
01:13:13
Yeah. I used to go the Breadbasket all the time when before it was Alpine
Brewing.
Lorton:
Is that right?
Bixby:
Yeah.
Downie:
43
01:13:26
Well, at this point I'm going to end our recording and I want to thank you
all for the time and the stories. This has been absolutely fascinating. I'm
filling in some of the gaps and given me leads of more people to go chase
down for more histories.
Building erected in 1932 on Broadway in El Cajon, California and noted for hosting country music performances.
Transcribed by Ernest
Cisneros and Judith Downie
35
2024-04
�
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Link, Rich, Mary Anne Bixby, and Greg Lorton. Interview transcript. July 9, 2017.
Description
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<span><strong>Rich Link, Mary Anne Bixby and Greg Lorton</strong> are all early members of <strong>Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity (QUAFF)</strong>, a San Diego area homebrewing group. In this interview, Link, Bixby, and Lorton discuss their introduction to craft beer, early home brewing experiences, QUAFF, various local breweries, mead, and womens’ participation in homebrewing. None have worked in the industry professionally, but all are certified beer judges and Lorton and Bixby also judge mead competitions.</span><br /><br /><span><strong>Link</strong> wrote for the </span><em>Celebrator Beer News</em><span> magazine on the Southern California beer scene and his experiences visiting European breweries. He served several terms as QUAFF President. He is a certified beer judge.</span><br /><br /><span><strong>Lorton</strong> served as QUAFF Newsletter editor and President. (He has provided a separate oral history.)</span><br /><br /><span><span><strong>Bixby</strong>, with her late husband, Horace, switched from wine making to beer making. She belonged to the SDSS (San Diego Suds Sorority) which was a women-only subgroup of QUAFF.<br /></span></span>
<p><span data-contrast="auto"><strong>QUAFF</strong> was founded in 1989 for San Diego area homebrewers to learn, improve, and successfully compete with their beers, ciders, meads, and other fermented beverages. The group also assists members with earning national Beer Judge Certification (BJCP) and encourages participation in club-only and external competitions and charity events. </span><span data-ccp-props="{"134233117":true,"134233118":true}"> </span><span data-ccp-props="{"134233117":true,"134233118":true}"> </span></p>
<p><span data-contrast="auto">QUAFF is noted for sponsoring the America’s Finest City Homebrew Competition. One recipe from the pool of first-place winners considered for Best of Show at this event is selected for production at a local commercial brewery. Participating breweries have included Stone Brewing and AleSmith Brewing. The beers produced include Stone’s Xocovesa, developed by member Chris Banker. The club has garnered awards such as the American Homebrewers Association’s Radegast Award for community involvement and California and National Homebrew Club of the Year Awards, based on competition points earned. </span><span data-ccp-props="{"134233117":true,"134233118":true}"> </span></p>
<p><span data-contrast="auto">Dozens of QUAFF members have ‘gone pro’ either finding employment in the beer industry in a variety of positions or opening their own brewery. Some have opened breweries in San Diego County and others have moved either elsewhere in California or out of state.</span><span data-ccp-props="{"134233117":true,"134233118":true}"> </span></p>
<p><span data-ccp-props="{"134233117":true,"134233118":true}"> </span><span data-contrast="auto">As the group has grown, the monthly meetings have moved from member’s homes, to Callahan’s Pub, Karl Strauss Brewery and Gardens, and now meet at The Gärten (Bay Park neighborhood beer garden space shared by Lost Cause Mead, Oddish Wine, and Deft Brewing.) </span><span data-ccp-props="{"134233117":true,"134233118":true}"> </span><span data-ccp-props="{"134233117":true,"134233118":true}"> </span></p>
<p><span data-contrast="auto">Their website is found at </span><a href="https://quaff.org/"><span data-contrast="none">https://quaff.org/</span></a><span data-contrast="auto"> </span><span data-ccp-props="{"134233117":true,"134233118":true}"> </span></p>
<span>This recording was made on the front exterior patio of Burning Beard Brewery in El Cajon; there are periods of traffic noise which interfered with recording.</span>
Creator
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Rich Link
Mary Anne Bixby
Greg Lorton
Contributor
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Judith Downie
Ernest Cisneros
Date
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2017-07-09
Subject
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Home brewing -- California -- San Diego County
Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity (San Diego, Calif.)
Women brewers -- California -- San Diego County
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San Diego County (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos
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English
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California State University San Marcos
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text
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LinkRich_BixbyMaryAnne_LortonGreg_DownieJudith_2017-07-09_transcript
Brewchive(r)
Women's experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1498564f1d3d6285c3208cc178e223fb.pdf
f1b8f51c40feae933ebcff6608d835fc
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Blankemeier, Rick. Interview transcript, January 3rd, 2025.
Description
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Rick Blankemeir was a quality manager at Stone Brewery from 2010 - 2017. Rick and his colleague, Robbie Chandler, was the first to win Stone's internal brewing competition which was called the Stone Spotlight in 2014. Rick and Robbie's beer was called Sprocketbeir and it was brewed and distributed nationally as part of the competition. Rick was also the Director of Brewing Operations for Modern Times from 2017 - 2019 and the Quality Manager of Belching Beaver from 2019 - 2022. He also taught a brewing course at UCSD.
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Rick Blankemeier
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Judith Downie
Robert Sheehan
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2025-01-03
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Brewing industry
Stone Brewing Co.
Brewing industry -- Quality control
Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County
Belching Beaver Brewing
Modern Times Beer + Coffee
Brewing industry -- Accidents
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Rick Blankemeier
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BlankemeierRick_DownieJudith_2025-01-03_transcript
Brewchive(r)
Community history
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Judith Downie
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Rick Blankemeier
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6.0 Blankemeier, Rick. Interview January 3rd, 2025. SC027-067 01:28:35 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Brewing industry ; Stone Brewing Company ; Belching Beaver Brewery ; Modern Times Beer + Coffee ; Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County ; Brewing industry -- Quality control ; Brewing industry -- Accidents Rick Blankemeier Judith Downie sound BlankemeierRick_DownieJudith_2025-01-03.m4a 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/bd5e888c4de2b7cf6584dfe5ca3b1bcb.m4a Other audio English 0 Introduction Oral history of Rick Blankemeier on January 3rd, 2025 by Judith Downie, Special Collections Librarian at the University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 150 Getting Started in Brewing Rick Blankemeier discusses his education as well as how he got his start in brewing through his wife who got him his first home brew kit. Brewing ; Home brewing ; Colorado 0 618 Quality Control Manager Rick talks about his work at Stone Brewery, Modern Times Brewing, and Belching Beaver Brewery as a quality control manager and the collaborative spirit of the San Diego brewing scene. collaboration ; brewing ; Stone Brewery ; Modern Times ; Belching Beaver 0 1038 Winning Stone's Spotlight Competition and Leaving Stone for the Director of Brewing Operations at Modern Times Rick talks about how he and Robbie Chandler won Stone Brewing's first Spotlight competition by creating Spröcketbier. After spending years as a quality control manager at Stone Brewing, Rick jumped on the opportunity to become a Director of Brewing Operations at Modern Times, another brewery in San Diego. He talks about the transition from one position to another and how he needed to reshape his way of thinking to encompass a larger picture of the brewing business. Manager ; Director of Brewing Operations ; Brewing ; Stone Brewery ; Modern Times Brewing 0 1751 Designing Spröcketbier's label and a Tribute to Matt Courtright Rick talks about how he came up with the Spröcketbier label design and how that gave tribute to Matt Courtright who lost his life in a forklift accident while working at Stone. That accident had a big impact on how Rick approached safety while working for Modern Times and Belching Beaver. Matt Courtright ; Label Design ; Workplace accident ; Workplace safety 0 2186 The Physical Toll of Brewing Rick talks about how the manual labor of brewing at scales like Stone, Modern Times, and Belching Beaver can have an impact on the quality of life and health of workers later on in life. 0 2301 Marketing Spröcketbier Rick talks about how he and Robbie Chandler were flown around the country to go to different brewing events and talk about Spröcketbier. Spröcketbier ; Work trip ; all expenses paid ; Brewing events 0 2746 The Impact of the COVID Pandemic on Brewing Rick talks about how the COVID-19 pandemic impacted the brewing industry in San Diego. COVID ; Pandemic ; Shutdowns 0 3537 Belching Beaver and International Relations Rick talks about being let go by Modern Times and going back to his roots as a Quality Control Manager at Belching Beaver Brewing. At Belching Beaver he developed relationships with Chinese distributers while educating them on the quality control process. international relations ; quality control ; Belching Beaver 0 4013 Leaving Brewing Rick talks about how both he and his wife decided to leave the brewing industry during COVID because of the poor treatment of service industry workers and the rocky ups and downs of the economy. 0 4254 Teaching at UCSD Rick talks about his time teaching at UCSDs Brewing Extension program. He started as a substitute instructor whenever the courses' primary instructor was absent and eventually became the primary teacher. UCSD ; Teaching ; Brewing Extension program 0 4736 Still Enjoying Craft Beer Rick talks about how he still enjoys the craft beer scene even though he is no longer involved with brewing. His favorite watering hole is Battle Mage Brewing in Vista, California. 0 Oral history Rick Blankemeier was a quality manager at Stone Brewery from 2010 - 2017. Rick and his colleague, Robbie Chandler, were the first to win Stone's internal brewing competition which was called the Stone Spotlight in 2014. Rick and Robbie's beer was called Sprocketbeir and it was brewed and distributed nationally as part of the competition. Blankemeier was also the Director of Brewing Operations for Modern Times from 2017 - 2019 and the Quality Manager of Belching Beaver from 2019 - 2022. He also taught a brewing course at UCSD. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.220 --> 00:00:06.264 And that, and send that to you later. So. Okay. Well, Rick, if you will start by introducing yourself and what you do now. 00:00:06.264 --> 00:00:20.065 Oh, okay. Um, yeah. My name is Rick Blankemeier. I am a, right now I'm the quality, one of the quality engineers at a place called Hydronautics, which makes reverse osmosis filtration membranes. 00:00:20.065 --> 00:00:22.925 Ah, So you're still kind of in consumable beverages in a way. 00:00:22.925 --> 00:00:25.675 A little bit, yeah. In like the water side of things, 00:00:25.675 --> 00:00:25.684 Uhhuh. 00:00:25.684 --> 00:00:53.195 Like we make desalination elements. And, stuff for wastewater treatment and, uh, dairy processing. That's like one of our big things we do is make elements to separate the curds and the whey in cheese making. So, but we do sell elements to breweries too. And, like Belching Beaver, I know buys them and Stone does for all their reclamation operations that they have there still. So, yeah we're pretty happy about that. 00:00:53.195 --> 00:01:01.244 Yeah. So are they any of them using your systems for the water that they're using to brew with? Or is it more for their reclamation? 00:01:01.244 --> 00:01:30.000 Uh. Both. Yeah. So we have different elements that, you know, perform differently. The--one of our elements is definitely better for just--brackish--we call it brackish solutions. It's basically filtering city water or even just like slightly heavier salt water. But then we have desal stuff, which they don't use, but then we also have wastewater reclamation elements that are more specialized for that. And like high pH environments. 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:37.045 And certainly something that we need around here. With our abbreviated waters supplies, which, you know, yeah. I've grown up with. 00:01:37.045 --> 00:01:53.114 Actually most of our clients are customers are in the Middle East and India. Actually. It's like, where a lot of it's being used. We actually sell the desal elements to the Gaza Strip's desal plant for drinking water for all the Gaza folks there. So-- 00:01:53.114 --> 00:01:56.305 And there's probably a lot of that that's been blown up and ruined and-- 00:01:56.305 --> 00:02:06.444 Yeah. Well, they try not to target infrastructure like that Because it also feeds drinking water into other parts of Israel too. So, I think it'll, yeah-- 00:02:06.444 --> 00:02:09.693 Yeah. So there's some self self concern going on there. 00:02:09.693 --> 00:02:10.638 A little bit. 00:02:10.638 --> 00:02:10.875 Oh, man. 00:02:10.875 --> 00:02:12.884 Yeah. It's a pretty bad situation over there. 00:02:12.884 --> 00:02:15.568 Well, but that certainly is, is keeping you busy. 00:02:15.568 --> 00:02:16.104 Yeah, no, absolutely. 00:02:16.104 --> 00:02:19.895 So anyway, well, we'll--we're gonna start delving into your past. 00:02:19.895 --> 00:02:19.905 Okay. 00:02:19.905 --> 00:02:26.432 And of course, focusing on the brewing industry. But first, where are you from and what's your educational process or path been? 00:02:26.432 --> 00:04:05.625 Oh, okay. Yeah. Um, so I, my, both my parents were in the military, so we moved around a fair amount, but when I was younger, if I was gonna say like where I'm from, it'd be Colorado. And we settled down in Aurora when my parents were stationed there, and then they retired. Yeah, so we--I stayed there from basically ages, uh, six until we moved out here for work. But, uh, they--my education path's pretty similar, but I got in, I went to the University of Colorado at Boulder, and I did a combination master's, uh, a bachelor's/master's degree in chemical engineering with an emphasis on bioengineering. So I did a lot of, uh, actually it was specialized in tissue engineering. And then once I graduated, decided not to do anything with that and went into natural gas. Um, and so I did a natural gas plant and worked, you know, to set up a process for turning natural gas into hydrogen for fuel cell cars. And also for other hydrogen needs that a lot of other, you know, applications in the petrochemical business. So we'd sell hydrogen to other plants for that. And then, uh, I hated it. And so, my wife and I, well, my girlfriend at the time, now my wife, got me a homebrew kit and, uh, when I was kind of miserable and really enjoyed that. So I found a job out here, and that's when we moved out here in April of 2010. To work at Stone. And I started as a brewer and worked my way up to the quality manager there. 00:04:05.625 --> 00:04:09.844 Do you think it was advantageous to work as a brewer before you went into quality management? 00:04:09.844 --> 00:04:51.944 I think so. Yeah. Um, brewers, at least when I worked with them, I'm not sure if that's the same now, but they definitely respected you more if you worked on the floor. They called the office people, carpet walkers, a lot. And, uh, which they're--a lot of 'em are very necessary for the operation of business. But in terms of the amount of respect, they definitely respected anyone who was, you know, worked on the floor at least, and a recent amount of time, so like, and plus I had to be on the floor a lot, you know to help out with certain things. And, you know, I still enjoyed brewing, so I helped out with brewing a fair amount too. During that time. 00:04:51.944 --> 00:04:57.754 So going back to your home brewing, do you remember the first beer that you brewed? 00:04:57.754 --> 00:06:24.605 I think it was a red ale. It was just a, it was a, just a kit that came with, I think, their home brew kit that my wife got me. And so I brewed that up and kind of got hooked on that. I do remember, it was really funny though because like we just moved in together--this is in Colorado, and I needed shoulder surgery because we went on a rafting trip and my--I was like, try, I got--our boat got turned over in the rapids, and then I tried to swim for it and my arm, like, came out of its socket. So then I had to, I know it was pretty--and it was one of those things where it, uh, tore a labrum, so it was kind of loosey-goosey. So if I like stretched too much on it, it would just like pop out. And I was like, ah! So I eventually got that repaired. And so, my wife kind of helped me with my convalescence with that. But right before I got into surgery, I brewed a beer and put it in the closet. And it just went crazy and kind of, I think over pitched yeast on it, and it kind of just put like, all the clothes in there got like sprayed with yeasty beer, and then she's like, yeah--I was like recovering from soldier shoulder surgery. And she was like, "you clean this up now." So anyways, we had--we had a little rocky start to the home brewing thing, but she eventually-- 00:06:24.605 --> 00:06:26.086 Well, she stuck with you-- 00:06:26.086 --> 00:06:26.721 She did! 00:06:26.721 --> 00:06:27.770 You know, you learn not to over pitch your yeast. 00:06:27.770 --> 00:06:30.996 She got involved in the brewing industry too, so-- 00:06:30.996 --> 00:06:31.722 Oh, really? 00:06:31.722 --> 00:07:10.964 After that, and she was, uh, she was a tour guide at Stone for a bit and then she was the--basically the admin assistant for the brewing department for a few years. And then she left there to go work at Lost Abbey for a bit at the Confessional and, uh, what's it called? The--Cardiff. And was a bartender there for a number of years and really enjoyed it. So she's--she and I are both out of beer now. She's working as a dev test for medical device company in Carlsbad. So. I know. It's like, well, we're actually earning money now, that's crazy. 00:07:10.964 --> 00:07:18.132 Yeah. Well, yeah, you kind of touched on a--on a pretty common theme and you know, you do it for the passion. You do not do it for the income. 00:07:18.132 --> 00:07:19.725 No, no, no. 00:07:19.725 --> 00:07:35.754 You know, you're--I'm--we're watching all these breweries right now closing, and it's this, and, so many of 'em gone up for sale and nobody's buying 'em because they just, you know, they're, "yeah, I'm gonna pour all this money in and not make any, so, you know, can't do that right now. It's just not feasible." 00:07:35.754 --> 00:08:15.000 Yeah. I mean, I feel like probably from like 20--you know, 2006 to about 2018 or so, there was like this, I don't know, I feel like it was more of like a gold rush mentality. I'm sure you have better perspective on it than I do, but being in the industry, it felt like people were just getting into it and thinking that either they would make a pretty decent living on doing it, and they were homebrewers or whatnot, or they were trying to strike it rich somehow and it was felt like that, you know, if you got into this niche and did well, you can make a bunch of money at beer. And I don't think until it's like economies of scale bigger, you don't really make a lot of money with that. 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:48.004 Yeah. You don't. Yeah. I mean, the margin is way too small on your individual glass or can of beer to be making a fortune until you go, like you say, the economies of scale. But, uh, that's something that a lot of people went into because they were making beer and all their friends--they had a passion for it. Their friends told them they were making great beer, you really ought to open up a brewery I'll put some money behind you and yet nobody really had a true business plan or an understanding, or especially when 2020 came around an allowance for some kind of crisis. 00:08:48.004 --> 00:09:27.065 Right! Yeah. Like a kind of a, you know, the emergency funds or like a plan for anything like that happening. Yeah. It was, um, I mean, that was how I actually wanted to get into beer in the first place, was that I wanted to like work at a brewery, so I knew what it was like. So, you know, when I asked, you know, friends, family, and investors for, you know, starting my own brewery one day, that I know what I'm talking about. And like, what I was expecting. And then of course, like after the years went on, I was like, I am, there's no way in hell I'm opening a brewery. There's so much work and there's so much capital in terms of all the stainless you have to buy and-- 00:09:27.065 --> 00:09:53.284 The hours you have to put in the headaches. I mean, the amount of legislation and just reporting and--oh yeah. My head swims when I look at all that stuff and just go, you know, and if you go into it because it's an emotional passion, be because it's creative. That is exactly the sort of thing that you don't do, don't excel at, hate, you know, things like that. But you were wise. You got into it and you saw what was going on and you said, oh, wait a minute. 00:09:53.284 --> 00:10:18.835 Yeah. I mean, it was fun and I really enjoyed, and I learned a lot and, you know, did a lot of work, especially on the quality side and learned a lot about what breweries should be doing in terms of quality assurance, quality control, and that I just wasn't seeing a lot of it. And the breweries that succeeded ultimately, like, had really good marketing and really good beer. I mean, that's essentially what it boiled down to. 00:10:18.835 --> 00:10:52.335 Well, and the good beer goes back to the quality control because there are a lot of the smaller breweries that don't really have the capacity to do really thorough quality control. They're doing the best they can, but it shows when the beer, you know, you've got this one beer that's one of maybe your staple beers that you've always got on tap, but it changes from brew cycle to brew cycle, which part of that is the ingredients change, but your quality control is where it's supposed to step in and say, "oh, wait a minute, this isn't what people are going to expect, and what do we do to fix it?" 00:10:52.335 --> 00:11:34.485 Right. Yeah. And that was kind of--and oh, I was the sort of defacto, being at Stone, and then later at Modern Times a little bit and--but also at Belching Beaver--at Stone, I was definitely like, I felt like the quality control person for all the breweries in the area because they would come, it's like, "Hey, Rick, there's this issue. What should I do?" And I'm like, well, you know, sometimes I'd be like, oh yeah, I'll maybe do this and this and see if it works and they're like, "Oh, it worked really good!" "Thanks Rick!" Uh, but then there were other times where I'm like, uh, dump it. I'm sorry, dude. There's not much you can do without that. Yeah. It's, uh, that's kind of SOL. I just, I would not serve that in any sense or form to you know, a customer. 00:11:34.485 --> 00:11:47.575 Yeah. I mean, and that's hard news for somebody, but really you're not doing in favors to say, hey, go ahead and try this and see if you can resurrect it when you just know is not gonna work. That's just, you know, that's not the San Diego spirit-- 00:11:47.575 --> 00:11:47.585 No. 00:11:47.585 --> 00:12:17.105 --San Diego. Everybody's been so collaborative with each other. That's one of the things, when we first started looking at founding the Brewchive®, I started talking to some brewers and they all said, oh, you need to talk to so and so, and you need to talk to so and so. And giving me all these names, of course, of people who I didn't know but it was just like, people really like each other. I would've thought in an industry where you're all trying to cover the same consumer base you'd be at each other's throats and that's not what San Diego does. Very different. 00:12:17.105 --> 00:13:22.085 No. And that collaborative spirit, I feel like is what really elevated a lot of other breweries and even with like collaborations and everything, it seems like that, it's like definitely an exchanging of information, but also just like better practices too. Felt like the breweries, like I know for sure that I went to other breweries, not even in San Diego, but other places and, you know, like Chicago or down south in like Atlanta and all that. And I saw see things, and I was like, oh, this is a really brilliant way of doing this. Oh, I'm definitely, you know, as our--after Mitch left Stone, Joel Grosser was the kind of brewmaster there, and he'd always say like, yeah, if you see like something at another brewery that was like, better practices, even if it's like just like safety related, or better cleanliness or whatever? Yeah. Steal that, steal with pride. He used to say that, and I was like, and he came from Anheuser-Busch, so I'm not sure--(laughter)--I'm not sure if that means anything, but I was like, yeah, steal with pride! 00:13:22.085 --> 00:13:24.004 Yeah. I like that saying. 00:13:24.004 --> 00:13:48.683 But, I mean it was about like, more about like seeing better ways of organizing things, cleaning things. Safety related, which I feel like is like every brewery would be like, yeah, no. like we understood that like a rising tide lifts all boats and everything. And we know that if a brewery was really bad, that would look--people, the average consumer, at least for the most part, we feel like doesn't really, like they lump all the craft beer in one, in like one bucket. 00:13:48.683 --> 00:13:50.485 Yeah. If one's bad, they're all gonna be bad. 00:13:50.485 --> 00:13:51.284 Yeah so that's-- 00:13:51.284 --> 00:13:51.524 That's not the way. 00:13:51.524 --> 00:14:24.000 So that's what we, I think we're trying to avoid and that's why I helped out so many other breweries with their quality control issues, was that, you know, (we) were at another company. They were like, oh, they're having quality control issues, good. So we're good. But then, yeah, I was actually encouraged at places like Stone and Belching Beaver to help out some other breweries with some of their issues as long as it didn't take away from my duties. But if it's like a phone call and be like, yeah, do this, do this, this, this, hang up, it's fine. And they didn't feel like it was like violating an NDA or anything along those lines. 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:42.325 Right. Did you find much opportunity with all your, with your working to go visit other breweries? That seems to be a real constant around San Diego is a lot of the brewers, front of house, back of house, whoever they go and they drink at other breweries as well, you know. It's not like, oh, I gotta spend all my money at my own brewery. I'm gonna go visit everybody else's and find stuff I like. 00:14:42.325 --> 00:15:19.485 Well I feel like it was actually the opposite, is that we didn't wanna spend any of our money at our own brewery because they weren't paying us enough, and then we'd give them back our money. So, yeah. I mean, me personally, I would always drink other people's beer. I would only like bring, you know, the free beer I'd get at Stone, just because I'm like, here, have some beer from Stone. And it was always polite whenever you went to other breweries is to bring gifts of your own beer and everything there. And then they would also in turn, give you free beer and like a tour of the place. And you get to see everything and that was, kind of that it was like a cultural exchange, it felt like. 00:15:19.485 --> 00:15:41.884 And you never know, you might wind up working with those people at some point too because there's so much cross pollination and job jumping for whatever reason within the local breweries. But then again, being collaborative and getting along with people, leaves those doors open where if you've always talked bad about another brewery, well, they're never gonna hire you if you did need a job somewhere else. You know, that's just not gonna happen. 00:15:41.884 --> 00:16:42.215 Although I have to have a confession that I did talk badly about Modern Times when, um, because Jacob McKean worked at Stone. And, I just, I--full like, you know, full confession. I was not, I did not enjoy him as a person in the very brief instances we worked, because he was on the marketing side, I was on the brewing side, but then he came in and did like, you know, some videos of like, me working the lab you know, the marketing stuff and he's like, you still write all this down? Like, why don't you use like spreadsheets and everything? I'm like, well, I do. I double enter. So then if I lose one or the other, like if you know, the shared drive fails, then at least I have like the paper copy of it because this is all important stuff in terms of quality control. If I can't look back and see like, oh yeah, this had this bacteria in it then, and then something happens, or, you know, it gets in a fire or lose all the saved data, then I don't have that reference to come back to. 00:16:42.215 --> 00:16:44.187 Or if you're walking around with a laptop and beer gets spilled in it. 00:16:44.187 --> 00:16:54.235 Which happens a lot. Yeah. So, I don't know. I just, I wasn't a fan of him. But then later on, I, uh, you know, when I applied for the job, I was like, oh, okay. I think he's kind of gotten a little bit less snooty. A little bit. 00:16:54.235 --> 00:17:10.755 Well, you know, and you know, when it's put to you in a certain way, sometimes your hackles just raise. I mean, it's like you're attacking the way I do things. And it works for me. So, you know, great. If it doesn't work for you, fine. But, so yeah. First impression sometimes. 00:17:10.755 --> 00:17:20.884 Yeah, I know. But in general though, I enjoyed the Modern Times beers. When the opportunity for a director brewing operations position opened up, that's where I went to it. 00:17:20.884 --> 00:17:25.164 Because that was, that would be a step up from where you were at Stone at the point. Right? 00:17:25.164 --> 00:17:58.865 Yeah. And I didn't really have a good--once I got to be Quality Manager, they kept putting people above me from outside from, usually from Anheuser-Busch. And, I was like, well, I don't really have a good career path. And even my boss at the time was like, when I put in my notice, he's like, "yeah, you know, it's, I don't see--I understand you don't really have like a path for growth here anymore." I'm like, yeah. 'cause you got, you've got where I wanted to go. But anyways. But after that, that's where I went to Modern Times for a little bit. It was only there for about two years before I went to Belching Beaver. 00:17:58.865 --> 00:18:08.345 So well before we leave Stone and jump to Modern Times and your experience there, of course, you know, you with Robbie Chandler--now, who is Robbie? 00:18:08.345 --> 00:19:06.983 So Robbie was the warehouse lead at Stone. He was the kind of the--he was the forklift jockey, the guy unloading the trucks. I think eventually became the warehouse supervisor there. But, you know, he was the guy, just big personality and just a bear of a man, big old beard and everything, and he and I just really got along well together. The funny thing was--is that when they announced that if you wanted to be part of the Spotlight competition you pair off with, you know, whoever you wanted to do it with. And so it came down to it. I was like, I signed up for it and then I was like, who do I want to brew with me? Oh, Robbie said he wanted to brew with me. And so I was like, Hey, Robbie, you want to come? He's like, oh, yeah, no, I'll brew with you. And I didn't realize that he had another partner that was already set up, so he just totally like, ditched that, that group, and then came over to my side and people were angry. It's like, I didn't, I didn't know. I just asked him. 00:19:06.983 --> 00:19:08.684 Yeah, yeah. You didn't poach him! 00:19:08.684 --> 00:19:15.085 I know I didn't, I had no idea. He didn't even tell me that. He was like, no, I'm with you on this one. So. 00:19:15.085 --> 00:19:22.384 Well. If he had been talking to you about brewing with you and that, that was the opportunity, I can kind of see why, but yeah, I can see feelings being being maybe a little bit hurt there too. 00:19:22.384 --> 00:19:34.525 And I mean, and bless Robbie, he's got such a good personality and such a, he was very jovial. He just didn't know as much about the beer brewing process as I did. So, you know, I basically-- 00:19:34.525 --> 00:19:36.204 He, he had not been home brewing then? 00:19:36.204 --> 00:19:52.434 He did a little bit of home brewing, but it wasn't like when we were coming up with a recipe, you know, I was just like, Hey, just feel free to jump in if you want, change anything. But I was thinking like, let's do something different, something kind of off the wall, at least-- 00:19:52.434 --> 00:19:53.674 Very Stone that way. 00:19:53.674 --> 00:20:17.404 Yeah. And let's do a black rye kölsch. And he is like, yeah, that sounds good. I'm like, no notes or anything? He's like, no, let's just do it. And I was like, okay. All right. So I guess we're doing a black rye kölsch. Sure. And we spent most of the other time talking about what we'd name it, and we were both fans of SNL and the sprockets skit that Mike Myers was on when he was on SNL. 00:20:17.404 --> 00:20:18.525 Boy, I don't even remember that one. 00:20:18.525 --> 00:20:23.684 Uh, it was like, um, the German ones. He's like, "Velcome to Shprockets, My name is Dieter," you know. 00:20:23.684 --> 00:20:24.674 Oh, okay. The Dieters. 00:20:24.674 --> 00:20:44.884 Yeah. The, yeah. And he is like, yeah, "Vould you like to touch my monkey?" You know, stuff like that. And I guess that's what with my German last name, he (was) always like, um, he's like, no, Rick, I do not to touch your monkey. But anyways, we were all goofing around and kind of riffing off each other and doing these silly little bits, but that's what we wanted to call it Sprocketbier. 00:20:44.884 --> 00:21:07.065 Okay. Okay. Well then that explains the name. I'll have to go back. And probably on YouTube there's some of those old, and rewatch those 'cause, it's been, it's been so, so long. So when you were designing that beer, did you have test batches that you made? How much time did you have to prepare for the competition and it-- 00:21:07.065 --> 00:21:21.204 We made one test batch before we brewed the kind of scaled up one on the small system at Stone. So I did, you know, we did that at Robbie's house 'cause he had a better house for that, to kind of brew on there. So we just did once. And-- 00:21:21.204 --> 00:21:24.355 Your wife probably wasn't real happy about you maybe having beer in the closet again. 00:21:24.355 --> 00:22:22.025 Well, she, uh, she was fine with it after that. We'd have better areas to store things at that point. But, yeah. But we brewed one batch of it, and it came out pretty well. We made--I made some adjustments to the amount of Carafa malt, which is like, that de-bittered black malt. We'd add to it. But after that, we just kind of scaled it up to the small system and brewed it. And yeah. It was Robbie and I kind of on there with the--under the supervision of Steve Gonzalez, who was the small batch manager. I think he still is at Stone, at this point. But, uh, yeah, no, we brewed that. And really, I was hoping to do well, like come in like the top three, but I really didn't expect to win on that. Well 'cause everyone else was like doing IPAs, like fun or other kinds of like, fun kind of Belgian-style beers. And I wasn't really expecting to actually do anything too revolutionary with it. 00:22:22.025 --> 00:22:23.724 Who were the judges, do you know? 00:22:23.724 --> 00:22:27.904 Yeah, it was Greg, Steve and Mitch. Yeah. So. 00:22:27.904 --> 00:22:28.859 The highest level. 00:22:28.859 --> 00:22:29.815 Highest level. Yeah. It was-- 00:22:29.815 --> 00:22:32.914 There was nobody to go to if you wanted to contest the results. 00:22:32.914 --> 00:23:54.924 Well, I mean the whole concept of the Spotlight series came about from sort of the amount of unhappiness of the brewers of not having ways of being creative. So, I think it was in 2013 or 2012 or 2013, they did like the first employee survey. And, they did like a kind of a presentation on that and for everyone, and kind of understood that like there was a lot of unhappy people working at Stone at the time . And, the brewers more specifically were very unhappy with the lack of creative control that they had, which is, I mean, looking back at it, I'm like, it's, you know--it wasn't necessary. I don't know, like it was, we had a lot of really talented brewers. Very, you know, very talented brewers. And I think that they thought working at Stone that they'd get a chance to do a lot more of the creative stuff. And then they did like the creative casks thing where they would like pull beer off into a cask, do cask conditioning and add different ingredients to the base of our core lineup of beers. And that was fun. But then they also wanted to make something that could potentially do well for the company in a national release. And that's where the Spotlight series kind of came in. 00:23:54.924 --> 00:24:06.055 Yeah. There's that tension between personal creativity, what's gonna be marketable, and how many people wanna participate, and how sustainable a program like that actually is. 00:24:06.055 --> 00:24:16.325 Right. And I think that, you know, I'm sure if they reflected on it, they would've gone with a much smaller batch, and-- 00:24:16.325 --> 00:24:17.884 Well, how big was the batch? 00:24:17.884 --> 00:24:41.590 Um, so, I think it was three fermenters for it, which is pretty good for nationwide release at the time, based on the distribution network. So that was, and each batch was about 350 barrels after filtration. So 350, so 700 and about just about a thousand. 00:24:41.590 --> 00:24:42.117 Yeah, Over thousand barrels or more. 00:24:42.117 --> 00:24:44.799 Yeah. And so, yeah, they, that's what they did. Of course-- 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:45.581 That's big. 00:24:45.581 --> 00:25:24.355 Next year was only two fermenters, and then the year after that was only one fermenter as far as from what I remember. But they wanted to, I think, to keep doing a little bit of that in case like something, you know, like a hit happened. Ballast Point, that was the reference of it 'cause Ballast Point had their Homebrew Mart. And they would brew, you know, a few beers and I mean, obviously that's where Sculpin came from. That's where some of their other hits, uh, Indra Kunindra. That weird curry beer that they made that actually did pretty well came from that system. So Stone wanted something similar, I think as like a sort of incubator for interesting, you know, a potential beer that could do well for them. 00:25:24.355 --> 00:25:50.674 Yeah. 'cause I'm thinking, I'm not clear on the date on this, but the American Homebrew Association competition, that Stone sponsored, and then they would take the winning beer and, you know, it's like Chris Banker Xocoveza. Um, Ken, now his name escapes me right this minute. I can see his face in my head! But, you know, uh, Ken did the, um, he always wears Hawaiian shirts, big guy with a beard. 00:25:50.674 --> 00:25:51.815 Oh! Um-- 00:25:51.815 --> 00:25:53.743 I'm just blanking on his name and-- 00:25:53.743 --> 00:25:56.375 Yeah. The coconut porter? 00:25:56.375 --> 00:25:58.265 Yeah. So he did that. And, uh-- 00:25:58.265 --> 00:25:59.835 Yeah, I know you exactly what you're talking about. 00:25:59.835 --> 00:26:06.334 Yeah. And so Mo-J's come out of that, you know, so there've been beers that have come out and like Xocoveza now is a staple. 00:26:06.334 --> 00:26:06.875 It is. Yeah. 00:26:06.875 --> 00:26:16.704 I mean, that really, that went over very well. But I'm not sure when those beers started as opposed to the Spotlight series. 00:26:16.704 --> 00:26:41.944 Yeah. So, the Homebrewer competition stuff was at the same time. I mean, I started in 2010 and we did the first, I think the first of the Homebrew was Ken's beer. And that was the year before, I think in 2009. And then we did all those collaboration series as well. with like Jolly Pumpkin and Firestone and all those other ones. So-- 00:26:41.944 --> 00:26:41.954 Yeah, Dogfish Head-- 00:26:41.954 --> 00:26:43.243 There was always these-- 00:26:43.243 --> 00:26:47.484 There was, I think, was it Dogfish Head, Stone and, you know-- 00:26:47.484 --> 00:26:48.412 Victory. 00:26:48.412 --> 00:26:51.000 They would do like a triangle--Victory. They would do triangle along the, along the bottle. 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:54.145 That was the Saison du BUFF. 00:26:54.145 --> 00:27:06.724 Each year the position of the breweries would switch around. I mean, 'cause I've got a lot of those bottles from Greg and going, what's the difference between these two bottles? Oh, wait a minute. Stone's on the top now Dogfish Head's at the top now at the apex. 00:27:06.724 --> 00:27:11.164 Yeah. Saison du BUFF. That was kind of one of Greg's fun collaborations with-- 00:27:11.164 --> 00:27:13.365 Yeah. Then the wOOtstout. 00:27:13.365 --> 00:27:33.365 wOOtstout. That was fun. I got to meet Wil Wheaton because he was a homebrew nerd at the time. He's now sober. But, he came in in the lab and was like nerding out. And I told him, and he actually brought some of his homebrew. And then I ran it through our alkalizer, which measures alcohol content so I could tell him what his alcohol and everything was. 00:27:33.365 --> 00:27:33.993 Oh, very good! 00:27:33.993 --> 00:27:35.483 Yeah. It was a lot of fun. 00:27:35.483 --> 00:27:40.085 Yeah, I didn't understand how Wil Wheaton had gotten into that, but, you know, if he homebrewed, then yeah. That would-- 00:27:40.085 --> 00:27:46.285 Yeah. I think it was he homebrewed and kind of, you know, I think probably got approached by Greg or something like that to make-- 00:27:46.285 --> 00:27:47.000 Or he approached Greg at a festival who knows. 00:27:47.000 --> 00:28:21.325 Or something. I forgot what it was, but yeah. Yeah. So that was, that was a--that was a real fun part of the process. Like that was what kind of kept me going on, was meeting these really cool people, not only from like Wil Wheaton, all them, but from other breweries as well. On these collaborations, kind of like, just talking shop about how they did things differently, how we did things differently. You know, I was--I've always been kind of that person that wants to expand my horizons or best practices. I'm like, oh yeah, that makes total sense! Why aren't we doing that? You know? 00:28:21.325 --> 00:28:23.464 Yeah. Steal with pride! 00:28:23.464 --> 00:28:24.891 Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. 00:28:24.891 --> 00:28:32.460 But yeah. Yeah. I mean, people should always be learning in my book, but, oh, yeah--Uh, so, Spröcketbier won first-- 00:28:32.460 --> 00:28:34.983 Yeah. It did, 00:28:34.983 --> 00:28:44.355 And then you brewed over a thousand barrels of it. And, you know, that's a lot of gallons of beer. So, you need to promote that! 00:28:44.355 --> 00:29:16.884 Well, yeah. And I, and that was, uh, there was--actually you can look on YouTube. We actually did some little videos. At least the marketing team did. Tyler Graham was the I think, head--no, I don't think he was head of marketing, but he was kind of the head videographer and creative presence there. He did a really good job with us. Actually, one of the fun things that we ended up doing was actually being very involved with the making of the label. 00:29:16.884 --> 00:29:19.365 I was gonna ask, how was the label designed? 00:29:19.365 --> 00:29:43.404 Yeah, actually, I'll show you. It was, um, for the--so the Monarose, who was actually a wife of one of the brewers came in and we wanted to do like, homages to the other brewers there. So we had this whole entire like, side of the label here. And all these have like little, I guess homages or-- 00:29:43.404 --> 00:29:44.454 References of some sort-- 00:29:44.454 --> 00:29:45.714 References to people who worked at Stone. 00:29:45.714 --> 00:29:49.484 Yeah 'cause there's a rooster. There's a couple of profiles. Well. 00:29:49.484 --> 00:29:50.994 Yeah. Well, that's us. Yeah. 00:29:50.994 --> 00:29:53.404 Okay. Because I was gonna, I'm not quite sure who that-- 00:29:53.404 --> 00:29:55.065 That's Robbie. That's, that's me. 00:29:55.065 --> 00:29:55.505 Okay. 00:29:55.505 --> 00:29:56.565 And then, so. 00:29:56.565 --> 00:29:59.845 Powell, and it looks like a little space--spaceman helmet or something? 00:29:59.845 --> 00:30:27.000 So one of the brewers we had, his name was, well, his nickname was Rooster and he's actually brewing down in Mexico right now. But he would just, like, we called him Rooster because he would just be like, "what's up Rooster?" And like, and he would just caw at us. So we wanted to have Rooster there. One of the other brewers, I don't know, we almost considered him kind of like our mascot 'cause he really--I love the guy. Robskie 00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:28.404 That's the letter bit. 00:30:28.404 --> 00:30:28.785 Yeah. 00:30:28.785 --> 00:30:29.317 The "S." 00:30:29.317 --> 00:30:39.657 He'd always just like, like a finger up and be like, "Hey, money, how's it going money?" And he had like a higher-pitch voice. And so we would--so that's a reference to him. And then-- 00:30:39.657 --> 00:30:41.745 Pow is? 00:30:41.745 --> 00:31:17.164 Is for, oh gosh, I'm so sorry. I'm, uh, it's Cecil. Cecil. He's still there. He just, he was just like, pow! Because he'd always like make it like he's gonna, you know, punch you in the dick. And so he, that's where we got that from. And then this is a reference to Steve Via, who was another brewer there. And we used to draw these, like, he used to draw these stupid little faces, 'cause that's what he kinda looked like. And he'd draw these stupid little faces called, we called 'em Steve Heads, on like the whiteboards everywhere. 00:31:17.164 --> 00:31:19.005 Steve was here. 00:31:19.005 --> 00:31:28.525 Yeah. And then, we had a little tribute to the brewer that, uh, Matt, who lost his life at Stone on the forklift accident. 00:31:28.525 --> 00:31:30.194 Oh yeah. That's the hand with the finger pointing up. 00:31:30.194 --> 00:32:05.285 Yeah. With that, with the same tattoo that we, a bunch of us ended up getting on the finger right there. Because he, it was kind of a jab at him too in a playful way, is that he recently got a--he was very religious and had some Bible quotes tattooed on his bicep. But he was like, he over-ellipseed. And we'd make him fun of him for that. It's like, that's permanent, you know, on there? So then, but that's what we all ended up getting. 'cause he, instead of just doing the dot, dot dot, he'd do dot space, dot dot and so that's what we ended up doing for that. 00:32:05.285 --> 00:32:08.515 Well that's really, really sweet that he's memorialized there. 00:32:08.515 --> 00:32:50.525 Well, and then the burning roses was actually his submission. He actually ended up being able to, um, we, oh--so Chris Ketchum down at Liberty Station, he wasn't able to brew it 'cause he passed away before he was able to brew it on the system. But they made a bigger batch of this and like another couple, like three fermenters full to honor Matt Courtright for that. So that was actually his submission for the Spotlight series. And so he and I--I think it was Jason was his brewing partner on there, but yeah. So they brewed this and it was, it's super tasty. It's really good stuff. 00:32:50.525 --> 00:33:01.954 No, and that's very, very touching because I knew somebody had lost their life on the work floor, but hadn't really delved into who it was or what had happened or anything. 00:33:01.954 --> 00:34:20.525 Yeah, it was, you know, it was that--it was 2013 and it was that time at Stone where we were growing really rapidly and there was where the bottling line used to be, they moved that down to the new packaging hall that was just built. And then they set up a--it was just an empty area there. So it wasn't really, people didn't really forklift around that area very often. So they weren't really aware of where the pillars were. The support pillars. Because there was equipment in the way during that time, but it was a good, convenient storage area until we actually ended up filling it up more with fer--more fermenters. And he wasn't-- you know, looking back on it, at the time it felt like it was a result of Stone growing too fast, not caring about the employees, et cetera, et cetera. But really looking back on it, it was a lot of unfortunately bad decisions made by Matt. He wasn't wearing a seatbelt. There were some drug use implications. I'm not exactly sure if that was the case or not, but I mean, regardless of what he was doing, it was super tragic and he ended up, pop--you know, transporting a chemical drum, turned too fast with his forks up, which is still a bad idea. 00:34:20.525 --> 00:34:22.405 Oh, that's gonna throw your balance off. Yeah. 00:34:22.405 --> 00:35:33.764 He hit the pillar, tumbled over. He tried to jump out. That was also a no-no. So there, like, there was a series of mistakes that happened during that point that if he would've done one of those things, it would've, at least he might--he would've gotten hurt but he wouldn't have died. And, so it was really unfortunate, but we all were devastated. There was so much good talent there that ended up leaving over the next year and a half pretty quickly. I mean, that was other reason why the Spotlight series was kind of, you know, I think it was gonna dwindle down pretty quick because there was just a lack of involvement there. But I mean, we, the brewers that were involved in the Spotlight series, one was Hollie (Stephenson), she ended up being the brewmaster at the new Guinness facility in Maryland. Left to do that. Chris Baker, he ended up being the brewmaster at Mother Earth. Casey (Harris), he's now the co-founder and brewmaster at Topa Topa up in Ventura area. I mean, there was so many really awesome brewers that went on to do better at the brewing industry and just great things. Yeah. And it was just hard to lose all those folks. But losing somebody like that at work, I mean, that's-- 00:35:33.764 --> 00:35:34.795 That's very hard. 00:35:34.795 --> 00:36:02.164 Yeah. It's it at like Modern Times and, uh, Belching Beaver, after I left to work for those places, I always harped on safety as a huge thing because I saw what it did. When you, you know, someone gets seriously hurt or loses their life at the place, it just destroys morale. And I mean, really from some of the people that I still talk to at Stone, it really didn't recover until very recently. And that was only because I think Sapporo bought them and kind of changed-- 00:36:02.164 --> 00:36:06.204 There was much going on. It's kind of like, you know, you--you're looking forward. 00:36:06.204 --> 00:36:07.364 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 00:36:07.364 --> 00:36:13.222 Yeah. But you still wanna remember Matt. That's, that's just very, very important. But yeah. 00:36:13.222 --> 00:36:14.110 Yeah! 00:36:14.110 --> 00:36:25.025 That's Wow. That, yeah, people don't think about what goes on behind the taps. You know, that back of house stuff, the brewery operations are--things can happen. 00:36:25.025 --> 00:36:40.275 Oh yeah. No, it's dangerous back there, especially in big operations. That's why it costs so much to run a big brewery, is the automation that needs to get involved with that. Because you can't do all this just with the, your, you know, strength of your back in terms of labor. You gotta, you know-- 00:36:40.275 --> 00:37:23.715 Well, I have said, because I helped brew the last batch at Chuckalek with Sam (Samantha) Olson. It was a Pink Boots blend, and I'm a "pink booter," so I went out to help Sam and of course it was horribly hot that day and their little tiny operation. And I was going, it's hot, it's heavy, it's sticky, it's awful. I--this is a young person's job. My toes are near flame, I don't like this. But at least you know it, again, it gave me that view into the brewing process. So I had more appreciation for what brewers actually do. But I went, this is definitely a young person's occupation. And not forever because boy, your back is gonna give out eventually. I don't care how much automation you have to help you, there's still a lot that is just simply manual labor. 00:37:23.715 --> 00:38:20.704 Yeah. I mean, I--actually it was interesting. My wife is now working in the medical device industry. But one of the--she actually got to observe a surgery because her company does back surgery equipment and like procedural stuff and everything. And one of the people that was there was someone who worked in the warehouse most of their life at Wyeast who you know, they make the yeast that a whole bunch of breweries use and everything. And yeah it's just his spine was messed up from all the work that he was doing, from that. And I've just seen, so like the--how this amount of manual labor really does wear someone down. You can see somebody, or like, wow, that person has to be like 50 years-old and ends up they're like just coming out of their thirties. You're just like, ooh. That's a lot. That's why I was glad to where I was kind of doing stuff in the lab most of the time. If I wasn't jockeying a desk. So, yeah. 00:38:20.704 --> 00:38:39.105 Now, before I asked you a qu--I need to make a note to myself here about, uh, hopefully that word will remind me what I want to ask you, but I still wanna ask, because you said that after the beer was bottled, you've explained the labeling. You went on a promotional tour. 00:38:39.105 --> 00:39:53.344 Yes. Yeah. That was the real fun part was like over the course of about two months, like we'd go to a location for like a weekend or whatever and then fly back and then do that about three or four times. And, yeah, we went to try to hit all the major hubs. So we did like obviously a promotional thing here. Or at Liberty Station and also at Escondido. Went to Seattle, Atlanta, Cleveland and Philadelphia. From all these places. And so we'd made up with the Air District Sales Manager there, and they would take us where they would want us to, you know, sometimes it was a bottle shop, sometimes there was like a, you know, event happening or whatnot. And that was really super fun. Especially at that time. Because you know, Stone paid for everything, so it was like, okay, it was, you know, making as little as we did at the time, it was nice to go on kind of an all expense, essentially paid tour of these like, you know, places and either have the sales reps or Mitch's credit card kind of pay for everything. So it was--it was a lot of fun. Like Robbie and I got into some really good places, met some really good people and-- 00:39:53.344 --> 00:39:56.525 Did you have to spend a lot of time explaining the beer? 00:39:56.525 --> 00:40:55.954 A little bit. I mean, like, between you and me and the recording, if you tasted a black rye kölsch, and you're familiar with beer styles, you're like, wow, that tastes exactly like a Schwarzbier. It is a Schwarzbier, basically. It's, uh, we wanna make something that's low alcohol, or lower alcohol. I think it was like five point a half percent. Yeah. 5.4%. And so it was something that we could probably drink a lot of during the sales tour and not get too schnockered during that time, and, but yeah, no, we--we did a lot of explaining of the beer. We did, you know, to--we wanted to make it a little bit more unique with using kölsch yeast instead of like a lager yeast. Because I don't thi--at that time, they would've, uh, I think Mitch would've been like, we're using ale yeast for this because it's gonna, we don't want it to sit in a month in, you know, in these tanks. So using the kölsch yeast, that's why I picked kölsch because it turned around much quicker. 00:40:55.954 --> 00:40:57.905 Yeah. Yeah. 00:40:57.905 --> 00:41:13.000 And I like rye. Rye is like one of my favorite grains, so. And I like, kind of like the idea of like using Carafa malt, which was originally designed to use in Schwarzbiers in Germany as a de-bittered black malt so you don't get a lot of the flavor of the malt, of the black malt, but you get the color. 00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:15.945 Right. Okay. 00:41:15.945 --> 00:41:16.644 So, yeah. 00:41:16.644 --> 00:41:18.585 Very interesting. 00:41:18.585 --> 00:41:33.275 Yeah. So we did all that and journeyed around the place and did--we had a, it was a place in Seattle where we did--we chugged boots of this beer. It was like a race and so-- 00:41:33.275 --> 00:41:34.684 Good it was 5.4%! 00:41:34.684 --> 00:42:08.885 Yeah, I know. I was getting kind of, I was definitely getting a little tired of all that after, at the time. But I mean, I wasn't. The traveling part was a lot of fun, especially since they always took the--to their best accounts and their--they were just geeking out that they had brewers there to kind of help like promote it. And people came up and asked us a bunch of really good questions about the process and you know, what--how everything is, how we're doing, you know? And what do you do for all this? How, how does this work on a scaled up process, all the geeky homebrewer questions that come our way. 00:42:08.885 --> 00:42:12.992 Yeah. Well, and it also, you know, it humanizes Stone. I mean-- 00:42:12.992 --> 00:42:13.335 Oh yeah. 00:42:13.335 --> 00:42:35.795 Stone has become such so mythic, you know, with the gargoyle and everything else. That to actually have brewers there and real people there from Stone representing Stone. It's not that big mega monolith that the bigger beer brands are, that you don't know who those people are, and they--they're so distanced from the brewing itself that you don't feel the connection. 00:42:35.795 --> 00:43:00.281 Well, and to kind of expand on that, at the time, Greg was very much the face of Stone. And people--and Greg had a kind of polarizing personality, still does, I think. But when you get to talk to with him one-on-one, he is like a super nice guy. Little bit awkward, you know, on that interpersonal basis, but when you get him in front of a camera or in front of a crowd, he turns into the "arrogant bastard" essentially the, you know--we joked around that it was like the Greg-face effect, back in the early days. 00:43:00.281 --> 00:43:16.125 I've seen a reference somewhere to Greg-face. I don't remember where it was-- 00:43:16.125 --> 00:43:54.195 He just had like a open mouth, like ahhhhhhhhh, and that was like his, you know, he's angry about, you know--was it, he's angry about making sure people have good beer or something like that. I don't know. It was marketing around him and I don't think it really landed as much as he was hoping it would land. But, I think part of the pro--but I think that was part of it was when you got the brewers out there, we're just, you know, normal people making beer and really enjoying it. And I think the crowd and people really enjoyed, like actually seeing that there was actually normal people working there. We're not all just like raging maniacs. 00:43:54.195 --> 00:44:10.605 Well, and that's the whole thing about craft beer is it's, you know, there are people and personalities behind it as opposed to anonymous, everything's automated production, so people who want that human interaction, that human touch or, you know, craft beer is really-- 00:44:10.605 --> 00:45:34.394 Literal blood, sweat, and tears going into this beer. I've seen it. It grossed me out, but I've seen it. No, it's, um--but yeah, no, it was--I think that was a big part and I think that's why like the cask events we did at the Escondido restaurant location and also at Liberty Station, the wOOt Fest. And when we released it during Comic-Con and we would make different casks and different beers with like, celebrities or like the minor ce--like kind of like geeky celebrities. That was fun and people I think really enjoyed seeing the brewers kind of working together with that instead of just being like you're saying against like a faceless monolith of a company, there was actually real people that work in this. You know, the ones working actually, like destroying our bodies to get beer to you. You know, and it's--that's a big part of it. I mean, that's why we were really focused on safety pretty hardcore, obviously after Matt's passing because of everything. And it was, uh, it was a big, you know, it was a big wake-up call for I think craft beer in San Diego in general because there was so many people that either knew Matt or knew about him. And then there was obviously like kind of self-reflecting of like, whoa, what if somebody died at our brewery? I mean, that was--that'd be devastating. And they saw that, so. 00:45:34.394 --> 00:45:41.580 Yeah. And that's part of the maturing of the industry is accepting that things aren't always going to stay the same and bad things can happen. 00:45:41.580 --> 00:45:42.686 A hundred percent. 00:45:42.686 --> 00:45:45.684 And it could happen to you just as easily as anybody else. 00:45:45.684 --> 00:46:22.045 Yeah. And like COVID was a big, you know, that was a huge, uh--I think the way I like to, at least I've thought about it and the way that it kind of looked to me was an accelerating event, meaning that it kind of accelerated the, you know, whether a brewery was gonna do well or--Like, you know, I think unfortunately a bad example, or a good, bad example would be Iron Fist. Iron Fist was kind of trailing off there for a bit, but after COVID it was just pretty much done. You know, it kind of accelerated that. I think if COVID didn't happen, they would've limped along for a couple more years, maybe. But I feel like-- 00:46:22.045 --> 00:46:22.605 Hard to say. 00:46:22.605 --> 00:46:25.804 Yeah. I feel like COVID kind of accelerated that. 00:46:25.804 --> 00:47:08.434 I--well, I think it did for a number of breweries, but then we also had a whole bunch of breweries that were in process. They would already, you know, bought--things were already ordered and stuff like that. So it was, well, either we dump everything we've done so far and just take this massive loss--or hope, because who knew how long COVID was going to last, you know, people took the gamble and unfortunately now those gambles and the loans and everything else, they're starting to catch up with everybody. So we're seeing this horrible downturn right now, which just breaks my heart. Every day it seems like there's somebody else. I'm just like, no, not another one! But, you know, if you prepared properly or through the luck of the draw, whatever, some are gonna make it and some aren't, unfortunately. 00:47:08.434 --> 00:47:08.445 Yeah, absolutely. 00:47:08.445 --> 00:47:30.804 So again, the maturing of our industry locally. And I think that if we looked at other regions, we'd probably see a lot of the same thing. Areas that became hotbeds of brewing before we did in California or whatever, we'd see that they've gone through the same sort of cycle, so it's not just us, so that it just, we're here. So it really hits us hard. 00:47:30.804 --> 00:47:42.445 Well, yeah. And, San Diego is such a tight-knit brewing community too. It's like, you know, you hear about, it's like, oh, did you hear that? Rouleur closed. Did you hear about this? And you're like, oh, yeah, I met all those guys. I know them. 00:47:42.445 --> 00:47:57.635 Yeah. I went to Rouleur's last day and, you know, Tomme Arthur was there, Paul Sangster was there, Chris Banker was there. I was seeing all these people that, you know, haven't seen 'em recently, for whatever reason. And it was kind of like, well, it's great to have an old home week, but it's a terrible reason to have an old home week. 00:47:57.635 --> 00:47:59.804 Right. I know. 00:47:59.804 --> 00:48:22.034 So, yeah. But we--we'll pick up and move on, I guess. So speaking of moving on, the little note I made to myself was, when I've been over at Stone, I have been stunned by the speed at which everything's bottled. And I understand that stuff is pulled off the line like every five minutes and checked for quality control? 00:48:22.034 --> 00:48:23.744 Mm-hmm. 00:48:23.744 --> 00:48:29.125 How do you manage it at that speed? I mean, that was just stunning to me. 00:48:29.125 --> 00:48:54.885 Um, I mean, I've seen it happen where there's like times where I went to like, on a tour of the Budweiser facility up in Van Nuys. And they run about twice as fast, if not three times as fast as what Stone does. It--there was a guy on the line, just like looking around, like, oh, looks at the time, says it's about time for collecting a sample. And you just (makes a "tchew" sound) and it just, it's like just second nature to them. He doesn't even do that. 00:48:54.885 --> 00:49:06.844 But then you've still gotta run it through the process. And what if it's bad? What if you do have to pull it? How do you find it? In all that stuff that's already, you know, all this other stuff's gone through in the time it took you to do the quality check. 00:49:06.844 --> 00:51:35.465 Well, I think that's the thing about most beer issues, at least from, like non-sour beers. Like non-barrel-aged sour beers is that if there is an issue, then that's why you drew a lot of--you try to find the quality issue earlier on when it's less expensive to do something about it. So, like with the ingredients, try to do as best as you can as a brewery, depending on, as like how big you are. You know, like friability of malt, you're looking at the quality of the water, making sure there's no chlorine in there. You know, hops themselves, you do sniff tests, and you make sure that's stored well. So once it goes through the process, then at certain points it'd be like, well, if the ingredient's bad, we're just not gonna brew it. Which is, you know, it sucks, but at least we're not gonna like, spend that much money. If we already bought the ingredients, that's one thing. But as soon as you start investing time and labor into it, then it gets more and more expensive. So hopefully by the time you actually put it into a bottle, you know exactly what the quality is gonna be on there. But you still gotta do those checks as due diligence. So the thing about most beer is that if there is an issue with the beer itself, it's as a result--it's like, it's gonna be a systemic issue. Like, with that batch, and not necessarily with like these, like three boxes over here. That you have to, it's like a needle in a haystack, what to call it. And so that's why you try to take samples during fermentation, do taste tests before you send it to the filtration or what, centrifuge, whatever you end up doing with the finishing process of the beer. And then once it's in the bright tank, you also take samples before it's packaged. Uh, for taste testing and approval. And that's kind of the final go/no go. And then you taste it after it gets bottled or canned as well, too, but at that point it's pretty much on a truck that's heading to distribution. So it's a lot more involvement in terms of like doing a recall. If there's an issue with that. So typically if it's a off flavor issue you catch it early enough. Usually it's right after fermentation because that's where most of the off flavor issues may occur. If it's during the pr--and then you take samples, at least on our size, we took microbiological samples, like samples of it, plated it, see what grew. Made sure it wasn't a beer-spoiling organism or anything there. 00:51:35.465 --> 00:51:38.835 How long does it generally take for something like that to develop? 00:51:38.835 --> 00:51:40.324 Well, so that's, that's a-- 00:51:40.324 --> 00:51:43.034 Coming from a non-scientist person, I have no idea. 00:51:43.034 --> 00:53:59.635 Well, no, it is actually kind of complicated because when you take--so I take a sample from, you know, let's say a bright tank. It's about ready to be packaged. I grow it, and look at it and there's some concerning cells that grow up there. It looks like there might be lactic acid producing bacteria on there like lactobacillus or pediococcus. That's immediately sends things, red flags up in my head. So then I inform, you know, my bosses to say like, Hey, I'd like to put a hold on this and do maybe some forced aging to see if it'll actually express itself. Sometimes you see these organisms and they grow on the plate, but they might not necessarily grow in the beer. Um, and with like a lot of--and that's where like a, I think a lot of breweries went hard on IPAs is that IPAs have a lot of hops in them, they're usually a little bit higher in alcohol, which would inhibit growth of bacteria like that if their process wasn't as clean. If you're making lagers, that's a lot harder because it's lower alcohol, it's lower bitterness, IBUs, which it also inhibits growth and bacterial growth. And so if it was like a lager that I found this in, I'd be like, yeah, we're not selling this. But if it was an IPA, I'd probably put a couple, like, you know, I get like--package a few of them put into our incubator for like a day or two and see if anything produces. And, it depends on the beer, but if it, usually, if you don't see anything growing more, or if after you plate it, you don't see any more colony forming units in there, you could pretty much say that it's not gonna grow in it. But that's typically like the bigger issue. And especially we didn't do any sort of, uh, what's it called? Uh, pasteurization at the time, too. That's actually a bigger issue for all the non-alcoholic beers we're making up now, is the pasteurization part of the process. That's the kind of the expense limiting step for it at this point. But, um, but yeah, so that--it might take a day or two, it might take a couple weeks. There's some times where it kind of like caught me sitting up at the time where I released a beer knowing that this isn't--feeling pretty confident it's not gonna grow in it. But then I'm like, well, what happens like six months from now or whatever? 00:53:59.635 --> 00:54:05.744 Yeah. When its sitting on a shelf in a store, especially if they, they're not rotating their stock properly. 00:54:05.744 --> 00:54:08.914 Or keeping at room temperature. Exactly. Exactly. 00:54:08.914 --> 00:54:12.925 Yeah. No, that sort of thing always alarms me. 00:54:12.925 --> 00:54:31.875 Oh yeah. No, it's--that's what keeps you up at night is being a quality manager, is that like, you know, there's that give and take. Like the job of the quality manager is to assess and inform your management about the risk. So, and then see how we can mitigate that risk. And so for-- 00:54:31.875 --> 00:54:36.925 But it's not really your final call. It's gonna be higher ups that are gonna say, we're gonna pull this. 00:54:36.925 --> 00:55:07.565 And it should be. because I'm the one informing them of what the risks are. It's like--and if there's something that's like super high risk, like in terms of like something they want to do, I'd be like, no. Absolutely not. Like I, when I was at Belching Beaver, they kept wanting to do a Radler and without pasteurization and I'm like, absolutely not. Because you are adding sugar to it. Because like sugar and grapefruit juice or sugar and lemon juice. Whatever, which way you go. And if there's anything growing in there, it's going to grow a lot more you know? 00:55:07.565 --> 00:55:09.045 Right. Something's gonna explode. 00:55:09.045 --> 00:55:12.025 And I don't want that. I do not want that. 00:55:12.025 --> 00:55:17.275 No, that's your name on the line plus the company and everything else. 00:55:17.275 --> 00:55:21.224 They called me a spoil sport and I'm like, good! I am. That's my job. 00:55:21.224 --> 00:55:22.724 That's exactly right. 00:55:22.724 --> 00:55:37.385 Like, there's times where I'm like, well, this plate might not grow or might not, but I'm informing you about the risk. I'm, you know, whatever direction you want to go. I'll be happy with. But then there's other ones where I'm like, absolutely not. No, I'm not gonna have my name attached to this. 00:55:37.385 --> 00:55:55.045 Yeah. No, good for you. Stand up for it. So, um, when you went to Modern Times then, in 2017 as Director of Brewing Operations, this meant you were not doing quality control anymore? Or how much interaction did you have with the QC people there? 00:55:55.045 --> 00:56:45.965 I had a lot of interaction. I mean, that was my background. So, you know, I really wanted to make sure that we focused on the QC aspect of it and any sort of money we could invest to help out with that. Modern Times did a lot of barrel-aged beers. And so Morgan Tenwick, who was the QC manager at the time, she was kind of struggling pretty hard with that. So I ended up purchasing more kits and we kind of worked with her on how to do better barrel testing. So when I was discussing before about how, like usually if it's a tank of beers, it's gonna be bad, it's gonna, you know, it's gonna be bad. But with like barrel-aged beers and sour beers, anything you put into a barrel, you have these discreet, like mini vessels, right? And you have to test pretty much all of them. 00:56:45.965 --> 00:56:50.844 Yeah. It's a much more uncontrolled environment because a barrel is wood. It's not-- 00:56:50.844 --> 00:57:17.885 It breathes. It has stuff in it. Yeah. So then that's why you have to pretty much do micro-testing on every single barrel that's going into a batch. That way if you find something in one barrel, you can leave that out of the blend. And so that's what we ended up doing for the barrel-aging program at Stone, after we kind of got hit on a few of the like big infections that came out of it. You know, we--because if as soon as you dump that infected barrel into the blend its-- 00:57:17.885 --> 00:57:18.405 Oh yeah. The whole thing's gone. 00:57:18.405 --> 00:57:31.000 Exactly. So that's what we ended up doing there. So I helped out with that a lot. Because that was like low volume, but high margin stuff for us. So we wanted to do that. And then-- 00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:35.596 And, Modern Times's reputation was really, is really reliant on a lot of that barrel-aged stuff. 00:57:35.596 --> 00:57:35.606 It's huge. 00:57:35.606 --> 00:57:45.105 I have several friends that are members and they just, you know, when the barrel-aged, you know, some of 'em have got massive cellars of the Modern Times barrel-aged. 00:57:45.105 --> 00:58:55.525 Oh, it's huge. Yeah. And it was really good too. And so that was one of our big priorities. The other beers, like, I mean, that was pretty much we could handle like the normal production stuff with our IPAs and whatnot. Um, the, yeah. My biggest adjustment was like actually caring about the budget. I mean, I always cared about the budget when I was on the quality side. But it was like, how do I, you know, they gave me this money. How do I spend that? What new equipment do I need? What--do I need to hire somebody else? Stuff like that. Instead of being like, okay, here's the budget. How do I deal it out to like, quality? How do I deal it to brewing and packaging? And so that was a big adjustment for me. And then of course, all the other things that happened during that time, that's when Modern Times is blowing up. They bought the Commons Brewery up in Portland. And so I had to go up there to help set them up. And you know, I think, Tim (Kamolz) and Andrew (Schwartz) did a lot of that work, and Matt (Walsh), who moved up there to take over that position as a brewer up there. And so I do a lot of that. And then we opened up downtown LA location, and then we-- 00:58:55.525 --> 00:58:56.844 There was a lot of expansion. 00:58:56.844 --> 00:59:22.804 Oh. So much expansion. And, you know, that's--it kind of got to me. Plus I was still living up in Vista, so I had to go all the way down to Point Loma all the time on that. So, and then they kind of did like a whole kind of reorg. And so I got, you know, thrust out of my position there. And then I, but I already was kind of looking at leaving too. So it was, it was good timing. And then that's where I went to Belching Beaver after that. But. 00:59:22.804 --> 00:59:29.000 Okay. So now Belching Beaver, again, you're going back to more quality management. 00:59:29.000 --> 01:00:54.074 I learned my lesson that I think, well, I could have done I think a good job at that position as a, well, DOBO, Director of Brewing Operation. But it was just getting to be a lot for me. Plus I wasn't really, you know, I think Modern Times was hurting by that time with all the expansion and it really just came to a forefront. I think after like, not only COVID, but the rat magnet thing that happened too after that. So, but the, uh, but yeah, going to Belching Beaver was, you know--it was like going like, kind of going back down again in scale. And it was very much like a family run, you know? It is, it was still a family run place and all that. But yeah, just a, they were having a lot of quality issues and they needed somebody to kind of with an experienced hand to help set things up in terms of their quality systems and do the micro testing. And, because they were selling a lot of beer to China, especially the peanut butter milk stout. And that was really super popular in China. So they wanted to make sure that, you know, and Chinese are very--they will try to get as much out of you as possible for as little money. It's kind of their business, way of doing business. And so when they were having a lot of quality issues going there, I found a lot of where the issues were coming from on the bottling line, because they only wanted bottles. They didn't want cans over in China. 01:00:54.074 --> 01:00:58.355 Well, when I think of Chinese beer, everything I can think of is in a bottle. 01:00:58.355 --> 01:01:48.005 Yeah. Mm-hmm. They like it. And you know, I think they have a big recycling program for glass bottles there. So like, we send those over and it was fine, but it was just, it was, you know, they--I had to be the kind of interface on the quality side. They take it very seriously there. And so I was like showing them what we were doing, where the issue came from, how we're resolving it, being very transparent with them kind of as a, you know, since we're the supplier, they're the customer, we wanna make sure that they basically saddled us as I'm using in my new industry, a supplier corrective action where I could actually like, basically tell them exactly what we were doing to resolve some of these quality issues and being very forefront with them, upfront with them, but also holding them accountable for how they store our beer. Because-- 01:01:48.005 --> 01:01:56.125 That seems to be a big problem with the imports. Or exports that we're putting out to other countries is how it's being handled on the other end. 01:01:56.125 --> 01:02:27.164 Well, because they, because, and they were--they didn't know much about the beer and how it should be stored. So I kind of educated them on that. So then they can, because the distributor, that distributor of beer, so then they can tell their customers when they come back for a, you know, as a complaint, the distributor can come back and be like, how did you store it? And it was like, did you transport this case of beer on the back of a scooter up this mountain after sitting out for like three days in like the sun? You know, it's not gonna taste the same as they remember it. 01:02:27.164 --> 01:02:29.324 How true. 01:02:29.324 --> 01:02:33.565 Yeah. And that's what we had to like, really deal with, was like-- 01:02:33.565 --> 01:02:40.034 Well, I mean, I'm sure people don't think how their actions can affect a product. 01:02:40.034 --> 01:03:13.244 Yeah. Well, and craft beer over there is very new. And or, and the beer that they were used to is the mass produced stuff from like, Snow and some of the other imports in the area. You know, coming in, but not American craft beer which is a lot more sensitive. We don't at least at that point, pasteurize our beer, which helped, you know, stabilize it, but also affected the flavor. Like the non-pasteurized stuff I think tastes better because it doesn't get cooked a little bit. You know, it's not designed for that. And so. 01:03:13.244 --> 01:03:19.525 Well, and that's the argument Coors has made for all those years, is we don't pasteurize so you get a better tasting beer. So, you know. 01:03:19.525 --> 01:03:21.474 Yeah. I think they still pasteurize a little bit. 01:03:21.474 --> 01:03:22.085 Yeah. It's-- 01:03:22.085 --> 01:03:24.474 But not the--that brand. 01:03:24.474 --> 01:03:32.454 Yeah. No, I remember their ads from when I was little. But anyway, so Belching Beaver, you were there during COVID? 01:03:32.454 --> 01:03:33.784 I was, yes. 01:03:33.784 --> 01:03:35.045 How did that work out? 01:03:35.045 --> 01:04:06.525 Um, you know what it was--I mean, we were all, it was a very confusing time whether I would get like furloughed during that or whatnot. But, with--at least we were considered an essential business, so we ended up doing a lot of production during that time. And actually our production increased significantly because like a lot of other breweries that were more reliant on taproom sales, we weren't as much. 01:04:06.525 --> 01:04:08.614 Right. You were already canning and-- 01:04:08.614 --> 01:04:09.490 And distributing. 01:04:09.490 --> 01:04:22.045 --distributing a lot of your stuff, which was very different because a lot of the smaller guys had only been tap rooms and they had to suddenly turn around and get canning equipment or a mobile canner or something to keep them in business. 01:04:22.045 --> 01:06:38.474 Absolutely. Yeah. So that was kind of the big turnaround there was that we were able to distribute to, you know, we used the Reyes Brothers (Reyes Beverage Group) distribution, and they got us into grocery stores a lot and our beer sold really well in the grocery stores. So actually, COVID was pretty decent to us, actually pretty good. I think the, obviously the restaurants that we had, the one, the pub in Vista and then the downtown one in downtown Vista suffered a little bit because of that. But after all, kind of like more restrictions were lifted and you can do outside seating and all that it was, you know, it turned out okay. But the beer definitely was helping us survive that and we actually did really well. That was like our biggest selling as far when I was there, it was actually during COVID in terms of like distributed sales. Which was actually pretty cool. So, but yeah, I mean, it was, it was weird, like wearing masks around the place. Really not knowing what sort of, I don't know, like what, like early on what actually was like the vector of contaminant--you know, of an infection was until it was like a, it was a, you know, respiratory infection. But what the interesting thing was, is like everything else that we did to try to like, reduce the amount of people working there, we furloughed a few of the brewers, so it was kind of a skeleton crew, but then we eventually had to bring them back on because we were making so much. The, the funny thing was, is just everything we were doing, like trying to help out with some of the other friends and family of the business. We actually had, one of Troy or one of our director of sales's friends is a barber and he came in and took over our bathroom and gave people haircuts in like our single stall bathroom, because they were all, like all the salons and haircut places were closed because they weren't considered an essential business. So that's how he made money, was like every week he'd come by and be like, who needs a haircut? And then we'd just go into the single serve bathroom across the way from my office. And give us haircuts. I got, it was a really nice haircut from him. 01:06:38.474 --> 01:06:42.965 Well, and that's also a bit of a morale boost that you can get yourself tidied up a little bit. 01:06:42.965 --> 01:06:45.965 Yeah! No, we were all looking a little rough there. Around the, the hair so it was-- 01:06:45.965 --> 01:06:52.525 Between all the emotional upheavals and the ups and downs everybody went through, just being able to get your hair cut was a big thing. 01:06:52.525 --> 01:08:36.000 Oh, yeah. No, and that, and that was, yeah. Like, so my wife, that was kind of the impetus of kind of both me and my wife to kind of consider where we'd want to go, you know? And beer kind of wasn't looking to be that direction. She was working at The Confessional at the time and in Cardiff. And of course they shut everything down was like supposed to be to go only, although she made exceptions for really good customers that come in and hang out, like socially distanced inside, but still just hang out and drink their beer at the bar, like a normal person instead of like having to go beers go out the front door. But, yeah, she--they had to set up the out--and then once they were allowed to do outside service, they had to set up these tables and then break 'em down again. So they wouldn't get stolen. And it was really like taking a toll on her. And we were watching a lot of Star Trek during that time. And she was like, man, I wanna be a programmer! And I was like, oh, interesting. Okay. I didn't really expect this, because she loved, I mean, she loved the customer service aspect. Like, we got to be decent friends with a lot of her regulars that were really good and, you know, met the celebrities of the Cardiff area that like to come in. Like Haro, Bob Haro of Haro Bikes. He was a regular out there and we met a lot of, you know, a lot of really cool people, including our realtor that bought our house, we met from there. So like, her wanting to move on, like she was getting really tired of moving all these tables and dealing with the customers that were upset about the whole, like, wearing your mask and-- 01:08:36.000 --> 01:08:38.835 The service staff got so dumped on. There was so many people. 01:08:38.835 --> 01:08:46.614 Yeah. Just because people were frustrated, the COVID thing, and they took it out on the service staff and they're just like, Hey man, we're just here trying to make some money. You know? Because-- 01:08:46.614 --> 01:08:48.925 We're not any happier about it than you are, but-- 01:08:48.925 --> 01:09:28.604 Yeah, but we're the ones that deal with it. But, and I mean, luckily enough of the regulars were, you know, kind of helped settle anyone that's like, Hey, you need to, you need to be quiet because she's doing the best she can. And she is an angel. But yeah. So, but she went to a coding bootcamp and got her certificate and then got a job at Tandem Diabetes. They make the insulin pumps for type 1 diabetes. And she was a tester for the software for the website that, you know, you order your refill kits and everything from. Um, yeah. And she misses customer service. But she doesn't miss the-- 01:09:28.604 --> 01:09:35.645 Day to day-to-day grinding part. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Watching people have to set up and break down tables and then all the cleaning you've gotta do, it's like-- 01:09:35.645 --> 01:09:37.034 Disinfecting and everything. 01:09:37.034 --> 01:09:38.925 Yeah. I got my own house to clean. Thank you. 01:09:38.925 --> 01:09:41.305 Right. I know. And that's, yeah. So I-- 01:09:41.305 --> 01:09:44.234 So yeah. That would get old again, you know, just-- 01:09:44.234 --> 01:10:23.864 Yeah, exactly. So that's what she--so that's kind of like where we were at at that point. And then, about just a little over two years ago was when, yeah, like there was kind of a, the big peak at Belching Beaver in terms of distribution during COVID. And then once everything started opening up again, I think people really wanted to go out. They didn't want to just buy beer from the grocery store anymore. So then our distribution sales fell off, but our restaurant sales went up. But the--I was probably the most expensive employee they had so they had to lay me off at that point, so. Which was good because I was actually kind of getting, I don't know, I like being in places where I learn new things and-- 01:10:23.864 --> 01:10:30.145 It sounded like you were already questioning, you know, you and your wife both. She had made a decision to make a change and, you know. 01:10:30.145 --> 01:10:44.725 Yeah. And I kind of wanted to follow that. So, yeah. And then I went--yeah, I got a job at Hydranautics and that was a little bit too--yeah. I started on Halloween of 2022. Or that was my first day. It was a Monday. 01:10:44.725 --> 01:10:47.000 A a memorable day. To say the least. 01:10:47.000 --> 01:10:53.324 Exactly. No. So, yeah. So that's why I kind of, that's how I got ended up out of beer at this point. 01:10:53.324 --> 01:10:58.604 But while you were in beer, you were teaching at UCSD in the Brewing Extension program? 01:10:58.604 --> 01:10:59.045 I was, yeah. I was teaching-- 01:10:59.045 --> 01:11:01.555 What classes and how, when did you teach? 01:11:01.555 --> 01:12:43.000 Yeah, so I remember like really--so it was when Yusuf first started, Yusuf Cherney first started up that--at least helped start up that program, I wasn't involved at the very beginning of it. Gwen Conley, she and I, she was kinda like my mentor--still is to a certain extent--in the business when she was at Lost Abbey. And so she was teaching the sensory classes at the time. So she actually ended up, when she wouldn't be able to make a class or whatever, she would ask me to be involved and then she would give me a portion of her money for that, which was really nice of her to do that. But I taught a little bit of that. But then, so that introduced me to them. Mitch left and stopped teaching after he left to go open his New Realm place in Atlanta. So then, Justinian took over, Justinian Caire, took over the work production class for about a year or so, but then he quit that. But then, so then they came to talk to me because Gwen recommended me. And so then I started teaching, uh, work production in 2017 -- 2018. And, I did that. At first it was pretty popular, so I did it like twice a year. I think usually like a spring and fall quarter because they did quarters there. And, but then it kind of started trailing off where I do once a year. And then last few years, it was like once every--and I taught during COVID. They wanted to have a class during COVID. So I did a whole entire remote session on Zoom and everything. The Zoom teaching, I'm sure you're all familiar with that process. 01:12:43.000 --> 01:12:44.326 Oh yeah. 01:12:44.326 --> 01:13:34.045 Yeah. It was, you know, I didn't like it just because, you know, people had their cameras off. I wasn't--I usually thrive on the back and forth, and I usually told my war stories about like, oh yeah, you should do this and let me tell you why about this. You know, like, and usually people, especially that want to go start their own breweries are kind of interested moreso in like my war stories than the actual like content of the--at least I think so otherwise they're humoring me. I'm not sure. But I know I got pretty good evaluations for on there. So, but yeah, I taught work production, recipe development for yeah--and my last class was actually, because they wound down that program. They only did the last class to help clean up anyone who still wanted to get their certificate. And that was of July of last year. Now 2024. 01:13:34.045 --> 01:13:34.645 Yeah. 01:13:34.645 --> 01:13:35.125 That was the last one. 01:13:35.125 --> 01:13:38.664 Still not used to last year being 2024. 01:13:38.664 --> 01:13:39.845 Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's-- 01:13:39.845 --> 01:13:49.805 But yeah, I mean, it was nice that they did actually get people through the program rather than just saying, okay, that's it. We're done. You know, we don't care where you are in the program. Ta-ta. 01:13:49.805 --> 01:14:11.664 Yeah. They just wanted to, yeah. There was a lot of gauging interest in who wanted to complete it because I mean, it was a lot of money people spent at that time and they just wanted very much try to get all that back. And it was a nice little supplement for my--like by the time it got around here, I was like, I was okay with letting this go. I mean, I still enjoyed it to a certain extent, but-- 01:14:11.664 --> 01:14:15.925 But you've already got a full-time job. This is on top of that. And yeah. 01:14:15.925 --> 01:14:28.000 I'm not even really in beer anymore. You know, like I have a lot of experience and a lot of knowledge about it and everything, and joy sharing that with people who were interested. But, you know, my last class, I only had three people in there. 01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:28.265 Oh gosh. 01:14:28.265 --> 01:14:34.675 Yeah. And one of 'em wasn't even signed up for the class, so, but they wanted to take it. That's fine! I'm okay with it. 01:14:34.675 --> 01:14:39.295 Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, get your knowledge where you can. 01:14:39.295 --> 01:14:39.305 Exactly. 01:14:39.305 --> 01:14:43.784 So at one point you were also on the Brewer's Association Quality Subcommittee. 01:14:43.784 --> 01:14:44.635 Oh yeah. 01:14:44.635 --> 01:14:47.755 What years was that and what did that committee actually do? 01:14:47.755 --> 01:17:38.244 Okay. Um, yeah, no, I kind of got kidnapped into that. But it's like, usually when these like subcommittees pop up, they always need people to like, kind of fill them. And, you know, there's a few people leaving or whatnot. But, I got in that in like 2019, I believe? Because we had some meetings over COVID. It was all Zoom meetings because it was people from breweries from all over the country. But yeah, I, um, I was involved with it. It was like the subcommittee on quality. So a lot of it was just prepping for any sort of quality talks that the Brewers Association wanted to demonstrate, like the lab, the lab in a--Lab In A Fishbowl. That's what it was called. The Lab In The Fishbowl that they always did at the Brewers Association, uh, the craft brewers conferences. And then anything else that might come up to promote quality from either the American Society of Brewing Chemists aspect, or the Master Brewers Association. And we just kind of discussed about programming and talking and any sort of big quality issues that are coming up. Like the big one they were hitting on at the time was hop creep. We're doing excessive dry hops, for usually hazy beers. Uh, ended up maybe causing some refermentation because of the enzymes that were present in these hops were--because one of the bigger innovations that came out last, like fifteen years or so, was to not kiln hops as hot. Because it, it made it like less fruity. Less flavorful, so. But as a result, some of the enzymes that are naturally present in hops kind of went in and maybe did some disassembling of some of the, like dextrins and all that and started creating more simple sugars inside the bottle or can and causing refermentation. And so it was a big quality issue and like how to avoid that. The other thing that came up, and I quit after I got my job outside of beer--I basically resigned my position. They're like, yep, you're outta beer so that's cool. All right. Well, good luck. Um, but, it was the people making non-alcoholic beer, but wanting to make sure that they know they have to pasteurize it. Because that's a big quality concern. Because not only are you having risk of like bottle or can explosions, but pathogenic bacteria too. Because you don't have alcohol. You don't have that aspect that prevents things like listeria and, you know, E coli. 01:17:38.244 --> 01:17:40.314 It's a full different basket of issues. 01:17:40.314 --> 01:18:02.226 Yeah. So that was a big thing that we talked about there. But it was, it was a good time. It was nice because I felt I was coming full circle. And one thing I forgot to mention was I was an intern at the Brewers Association when I lived in Colorado. And I helped work on the craftbeer.com website. And so I--my boss was Julia Herz, who's very famous in the industry. 01:18:02.226 --> 01:18:04.805 Yes. I've met Julia. 01:18:04.805 --> 01:18:45.845 She is a firecracker, full of energy, and she was very proud that I got a job at Stone. Um, you know, felt like she did her part to get some of these craft beer and evangelists in positions there. So, but yeah, she, that was kind of fun. So I got to be there for a year. And then we moved to out here from Colorado to work in the beer, the brewing industry actually in general. So I felt like going back to the Brewers Association, you know, at least on a subcommittee. I was like, oh, I'm doing things! It's good. I'm back here where I kind of started my little adventure. 01:18:45.845 --> 01:18:52.545 Yeah. Contributing to the industry in a broader scale than just, than just the locals. Not that there's anything wrong with just helping the locals. 01:18:52.545 --> 01:18:54.744 That's a hundred percent right. Yep. 01:18:54.744 --> 01:19:10.284 So, so then you were let go from Belching Beaver and you were already kind of looking to, you know, get out of the beer industry anyway. You kind of realized the financial repercussions of working for passion rather than-- 01:19:10.284 --> 01:19:32.234 Yeah. You know, it's, yeah. It is crazy how I was the Director of Brewing Operations for Modern Times was a very well known, very widely appreciated brewery at the time. And now I'm getting paid about 50% more than when I was--as a Director of Brewing Operations. Which is one of the highest positions in the company, so. It's just the way that it ends up working I think with that. 01:19:32.234 --> 01:19:34.798 Different industries have different pay scales. 01:19:34.798 --> 01:19:35.164 They do. 01:19:35.164 --> 01:19:40.005 It's just the fact of life, sadly. But, are you doing any homebrewing anymore? 01:19:40.005 --> 01:19:48.954 Um, no, I'm not, not homebrewing. I did get a little still, so I've been kind of home distilling. 01:19:48.954 --> 01:19:54.484 Okay. So you're kind of going, I mean, we are seeing more and more distilleries popping up. 01:19:54.484 --> 01:20:29.000 We are. Just, I mean, between you and me, it's just easier to distill because you don't have to worry about the fermentation quality or anything. You just, especially if like, I don't wanna spend like a weekend doing homebrewing anymore, just I'd rather do things around the house. Maybe play video games, but, you know, I'm not a into the, like, spending your weekends, like slaving over hot, you know turkey fryer burner, like I used to. But I do like the idea of distilling. I mean it, like--and it's all stovetop too. The way I do it. So it's, you know, it's simple. 01:20:29.000 --> 01:20:31.166 Very small batch. 01:20:31.166 --> 01:21:09.364 It's very small batch. Yeah. And so, I make like little, like, you know, like, I call ghetto fermentations of like corn and sugar. Kind of like this, like real moonshine. And I've done like, did a little mash and did some like maybe try to do my stint at like a single malt whiskey essentially. But right now my favorite thing is that they have actually a fair amount of wine in the break room at my wife's work. And so--but no one ever goes through all of that. So we have a bunch of like, half bottles of wine. So I make brandy out of it. 01:21:09.364 --> 01:21:11.784 I was gonna say, you're not gonna drink that are you? 01:21:11.784 --> 01:21:33.484 No, no, no. That's why I just distill it and make a little, uh, a little brandy. And then we put little, um, you can buy from like home brew stores online, like little like swirls or of oak. And then you put that in there. So you have oak-aged brandy. And that's like one of my things I do. 01:21:33.484 --> 01:21:34.274 Oh, how fun! 01:21:34.274 --> 01:22:02.725 It's easy too. Because you just pour a bunch of wine into this, put the lid on, and there's like a little coil and you keep that filled with water to cool it down and just brandy comes out of the condenser. I don't have to do a second distillation on it. It just, it comes around 20% or so. Which is plenty. I've done like the three times distillation ended up with like a mason jar this full of like a hundred and like sixty proof. 01:22:02.725 --> 01:22:04.164 Whoa! Goodness. 01:22:04.164 --> 01:22:13.125 Yeah. I was doing a little bit when I had access to lab equipment, so I was able to measure the potency of what I was doing. As long as I gave a sample to our brewmaster. 01:22:13.125 --> 01:22:20.290 There you go. So, being out of the industry, do you still enjoy any of the local beers? 01:22:20.290 --> 01:22:21.484 Oh, yes. 01:22:21.484 --> 01:22:24.145 Or are you just so focused on your distilling now? 01:22:24.145 --> 01:22:38.125 Oh, no. I'm not. It's like a maybe like once a month thing that I do. But, um, the yeah. Actually our kind of local like watering hole now is Battle Mage Brewing. That's where we go all the time. I actually-- 01:22:38.125 --> 01:22:40.592 I would assume you've walked over to Henebery then? 01:22:40.592 --> 01:22:41.086 Henebery's right there. 01:22:41.086 --> 01:22:43.364 Since they do the rye whiskey. Yeah. 01:22:43.364 --> 01:22:48.204 Yep. Yep. They have like a little, you know, they have a fun little collaboration. 01:22:48.204 --> 01:23:07.204 They're very collaborative. I mean, because I go to Henebery and meet up with friends Friday nights. So they can go down to Battle Mage and get glasses of beer and bring it back to drink it at Henebery. But they can't take the, any of the hard liquors over to Battle Mage. You know, I find that sort of dichotomy very interesting in the, you know, it's like-- 01:23:07.204 --> 01:23:19.000 Just alcohol. It's these alcohol rules, man. It's--they're so arcane and esoteric sometimes, you're just wondering, like, I don't know if you've heard of Yuseff's getting married story? 01:23:19.000 --> 01:23:20.150 No. Mm-hmm. 01:23:20.150 --> 01:23:48.564 Oh, gosh. So, you know, Yuseff being co-founder of Ballast Point then eventually Cutwater. He met his wife, now wife, um, she is the owner, or was the owner at the High Dive. I believe down there. And, you know, they dated and then they wanted to get married and they got married. But when they were processing their marriage license it got denied. 01:23:48.564 --> 01:23:50.414 What? 01:23:50.414 --> 01:24:16.005 Right. And they're like, well, what's the deal here? So it turns out as a result of the legislation that came out after Prohibition, it is illegal, or at least is--yeah, it's illegal or not allowed to have someone who owns a distillery or brewery marry an owner of a bar because they're worried about tied-house. 01:24:16.005 --> 01:24:20.185 Tied-house. That's extreme. That is crazy. 01:24:20.185 --> 01:24:27.965 So she, the, uh, and I totally forgot Yuseff's wife's name. Wife's name. And I'm friends with her on Facebook and everything but-- 01:24:27.965 --> 01:24:30.944 Yeah, and I'm--I know her name and it's, well, it's just like-- 01:24:30.944 --> 01:24:49.505 She speaks German and Spanish. She's lovely. Awesome person. But she had to sell her stake and the High Dive in order for them to officially get married, which they did at Valley High. And it was a whole thing, but they was like, yeah, we tried to get married now part deux, you know? 01:24:49.505 --> 01:24:55.604 Yeah. But the fact that anybody would even dig that up, I mean, we're talking a hundred years ago. 01:24:55.604 --> 01:25:03.164 Right! I didn't even think that. It's like, we know those old laws on the books that nobody enforces anymore. But apparently it's still a thing. They wouldn't allow it so. 01:25:03.164 --> 01:25:03.912 That's crazy. 01:25:03.912 --> 01:25:09.725 I know. I--it was kind of crazy to, I don't even know how they found out. Like how would you look that up? Like really? 01:25:09.725 --> 01:25:09.928 Yeah. 01:25:09.928 --> 01:25:14.244 I mean, because usually it's like, there's this person, there's this person, or you related? No, okay's. Let's do this. 01:25:14.244 --> 01:25:22.284 Yeah. Really, you know, you've done your blood tests and fine, you know? Great. You're now legal. So, oh, that's amazing. I hadn't heard that story. 01:25:22.284 --> 01:25:25.849 No, that's one of my favorite stories to tell, especially for history buffs. 01:25:25.849 --> 01:25:31.085 Well, it's a perfect example of how arcane our laws are and how they need to be cleaned up. 01:25:31.085 --> 01:25:31.704 A hundred percent. 01:25:31.704 --> 01:25:53.835 And of course, you know, with former President Carter passing away at a hundred, the fact that he actually gave homebrewing that kick to become, start commercializing. A lot of people are bringing that up now. And as you know, a way to remember him, you know? Oh, yeah remember Carter was the one that, you know, made home, homebrewing able to go commercial and stuff. 01:25:53.835 --> 01:26:08.614 Yeah. My dad was never a Jimmy Carter fan. Because you know, during--he was in the military at the time and he did a lot of pay cuts for the military. Of course, when Ronald Reagan came into play, we went into a lot of debt to give the military pay raises. 01:26:08.614 --> 01:26:09.784 Which they needed. 01:26:09.784 --> 01:26:16.005 But, he always says like, yeah, that's the only thing, good thing that Jimmy Carter did was legalized homebrewing. 01:26:16.005 --> 01:26:18.326 It certainly wasn't the fact that the brother brought up Billy Beer. 01:26:18.326 --> 01:26:21.164 Yeah. I was like. I was gonna say, I think it was more like his brother. Yeah. 01:26:21.164 --> 01:26:26.234 I think he had to apologize for Billy's beer. 01:26:26.234 --> 01:26:26.244 Billy Beer! 01:26:26.244 --> 01:27:03.305 Yeah. That's wild. Oh, Rick, this has been absolutely wonderful and very intriguing seeing your path through the ins and outs of the San Diego brewing industry from being brewer, but also working it through quality control. Because I think quality control, well, even proper packaging, those are unsung heroes. You know, if you don't treat the product right, it's not going to fly. And especially now after COVID with everybody expecting everything to be packaged, it makes a huge difference. 01:27:03.305 --> 01:27:55.814 No, it's, um, I think that's one of the biggest hurdles that many breweries run into is like really taking it seriously. You can't just like, put things in bottles or cans like you did when you were homebrewing. You really have to think about like, the steps that it takes to get there in order for it to be considered a high quality product. Going in. And of course quality is subjective. It really is. But the fact is, is that, you know, and of course the joke is that, quality is subjective, but it is the same definition as porn. I know it when I see it. You know. Or I know it when I taste it. So it's, you know, it's been hard at certain points to get to that point because a lot of breweries don't take quality issues seriously until it really seriously affects them or their brand. 01:27:55.814 --> 01:28:00.345 And some don't ever take it seriously. And that's the reasons they're no longer open. 01:28:00.345 --> 01:28:01.354 Exactly. Yeah. 01:28:01.354 --> 01:28:04.034 I mean there are some names I could name and I won't. 01:28:04.034 --> 01:28:29.354 Oh yeah, no, same, same. Yeah. But it's always the--it was always the case where if I knew they were trying to take it seriously and sometimes they just didn't either have the financial or the scientific expertise to go through it or the experience to do it, then it's like, I'll take you way more seriously because you want to, instead of some of these breweries that take pride that they don't, sometimes. And there was a few of those. 01:28:29.354 --> 01:28:34.854 Yeah. So, well, on that note, I will end the recording. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Blankemeier, Rick. Interview January 3rd, 2025.
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Rick Blankemeier was a quality manager at Stone Brewery from 2010 - 2017. Rick and his colleague, Robbie Chandler, were the first to win Stone's internal brewing competition which was called the Stone Spotlight in 2014. Rick and Robbie's beer was called Sprocketbeir and it was brewed and distributed nationally as part of the competition. Blankemeier was also the Director of Brewing Operations for Modern Times from 2017 - 2019 and the Quality Manager of Belching Beaver from 2019 - 2022. He also taught a brewing course at UCSD.
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SC027-067
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Brewing industry
Stone Brewing Co.
Belching Beaver Brewery
Modern Times Beer + Coffee
Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County
Brewing industry -- Quality control
Brewing industry -- Accidents
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2025-01-03
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Rick Blankemeier
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Judith Downie
Robert Sheehan
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San Diego County (Calif.)
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California State University San Marco University Library
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English
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Rick Blankemeier
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Brewchive(r)
Community history
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Oral Histories
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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Oral History
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Suzy Karasik
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Roberta Estrada
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5.4 Estrada, Roberta. Interview November 3, 2022 SC027-31 0:58:38 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Basket making Education, ESL Endemic plants -- Southern California Luiseño Indians Refugees -- Vietnam San Marcos (Calif.) Roberta Estrada Suzy Karasik mp4 EstradaRoberta_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-03_access.mp4 1:|17(8)|25(7)|32(10)|45(2)|57(5)|65(7)|74(11)|89(9)|116(12)|124(8)|137(2)|147(6)|162(3)|171(11)|182(10)|193(7)|206(7)|222(4)|240(10)|257(6)|277(6)|299(4)|309(11)|319(10)|329(10)|340(6)|386(7)|398(9)|420(10)|430(2)|449(4)|463(8)|473(8)|492(1)|506(10)|515(10)|526(15)|548(5)|574(10)|618(12)|634(2)|655(12)|666(2)|674(3)|708(4)|721(4)|734(10)|772(3)|803(4)|817(11)|842(6)|865(12)|890(13)|908(11)|916(11)|928(3)|944(14)|988(11) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/740a3fad6534f024735fd2e1671bc774.mp4 Other video English 0 Childhood and school years/ Indigenous identity Roberta Estrada discusses her childhood through college years. She was born into a tight-knit family, and explains that her mother was French and Native American from the San Luis Rey Mission Band tribe. She grew up in Vista, CA, but went to school in San Marcos, CA. She attended Alvin Dunn School, which is now renamed La Mirada Academy. Estrada explains that at the time, San Marcos did not have a high school district, so she attended Vista’s high school until San Marcos became a city in 1963 in her junior year. She also discusses that while in school, there were many more Hispanic children than there were Indigenous children and does not remember associating with Indigenous classmates at that time. She explains that she became more aware of her Luiseño identity later in life when her mother became involved in Indigenous groups. Estrada then recalls attending college and majoring in Spanish with a general education degree for elementary studies. She also describes her husband’s Pala background, particularly how his family acquired the surname “Estrada.” Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; College ; Hispanic community ; Hispanic people ; Identity ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Pala Band Of Mission Indians ; San Luis Rey Mission ; San Luis Rey Mission Band ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Spanish language ; Vista (Calif.) 618 Career in education Roberta Estrada discusses the sexism observed in her Indigenous community and in the school systems she taught in. She describes attending college and completing her student teaching in Wisconsin before returning back to Southern California. She explains that she attended Palomar College to complete more training before enrolling at California State University Bernadino and earning a Life Credential for teaching. She taught K-12 in the San Marcos Unified District as a bilingual teacher for thirty-two years. Estrada also discusses other aspects of her career as an educator, such as how members from the San Marcos community became involved in students’ learning and how she incorporated life skills into her curriculum. Finally, Estrada recalls teaching students who immigrated to the U.S. during the Vietnam War. California State University Bernadino ; Education ; Educators ; English language ; ESL ; Gender ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous people ; Palomar College ; San Bernardino (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Schools ; Sexism ; Spanish language ; Students ; Vietnam War ; Wisconsin 1276 Basketry Roberta Estrada discusses her involvement in basket-weaving. She explains that she has recently become involved with basketry by joining her cousin, Diania Caudell, on her school group presentation demonstrations. They also provide demonstrations to local universities about native plants. Estrada explains that they utilize processed plants from a company in Huntington Beach, CA for their presentations in order to ensure safety for their school groups. This ensures that are not handling plants that are sprayed with insecticides. Estrada also briefly explains an Indigenous coming-of-age ceremony that boys and girls participate in in the Luiseño culture. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Insecticides ; Luiseño people ; Native plants ; Pesticides ; San Luis Rey Mission Band ; School presentations 1732 Family background Roberta Estrada reflects on her Indigenous heritage and on her family’s background. She discusses how her late mother was an elder of their tribe, and how she had always turned to her mother for guidance in learning about their Luiseño culture and extended family. She also explains how she has more recently started learning about her Indigenous culture, traditions, and practices. She discusses current family traditions, such as powwows and other family gatherings. Extended family ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Native American elders ; San Luis Rey Mission Band 2032 Pride in heritage Roberta Estrada reflects on the feeling of proud of her Indigenous heritage. She explains how there are seven Luiseño tribes in the area, and yet, the San Luis Rey Mission Band tribe is the only federally unrecognized tribe. Estrada also discusses the San Luis Rey Mission Band’s recent attendance at the proclamation at the City of Oceanside meeting. She explains that this demonstrates that they are becoming more involved and making themselves more recognized in the community. She is excited to see younger San Luis Rey individuals become involved in the community. Community outreach ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous heritage ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; San Luis Rey Mission Band 2267 Land recognition and governmental involvement Roberta Estrada discusses the topic of land recognition. She explains that land acknowledgement is a much more recent component that has been added to events and presentations, whether in-person or virtual. She also explains how to present a land acknowledgment statement. Estrada also briefly explains the many obstacles that Indigenous tribes have to navigate through in order to be recognized by the U.S. government. Governmental involvment ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous lands ; Indigenous people ; Land acknowledgement ; Land recognition ; Native lands ; U.S. government 2473 Tribe's involvement in North County/ Identity and heritage Roberta Estrada reflects on North County. Specifically, she recalls her friends who operated Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch. The ranch’s land was eventually used to build California State University San Marcos. She also discusses how her family’s tribe aided the community and respected the land, such as cooking meals for the community. Estrada also explores the importance of oral history, especially in communities where histories are not recorded. Finally, she reflects on her heritage, explaining that she feels prouder of her Indigenous identity after entering retirement. She explains how she has reconnected with family members and her desire to pass on her heritage to her sons and grandchildren. She also expresses interest in continuing her education in learning the Luiseño language. California State University San Marcos ; Community outreach ; Extended family ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous heritage ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño language ; Luiseño people ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Oral history ; Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch ; San Luis Rey Mission Band ; San Marcos (Calif.) 3158 Advice to descendants Roberta Estrada provides advice to her descendants. She describes that she and her husband taught their two sons to live their life as they wish and to respect their elders. She is concerned that respect to one’s ancestors is a custom that is no longer practiced, and hopes that this is a life lesson that will be observed by future generations. Estrada ends the interview by discussing her upcoming basket-weaving presentations. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Descendants ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous heritage ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Native American elders ; San Luis Rey Mission Band Oral history Roberta Estrada is a Luiseño woman from the San Luis Rey Mission Band tribe. She grew up in Vista, CA and was educated throughout the North County school districts. She attended college, earning both Spanish and General Education degrees. She taught ESL in the San Marcos Unified District for thirty-two years. After retirement, she became more involved in the Indigenous community and learned basketry. She accompanies her cousin, Diania Caudell, on school group presentations and teaches audiences about basket-weaving and native plants. Estrada is proud of her Luiseño heritage, and continues reconnecting with family members and getting involved in Indigenous community activities. Estrada also discusses in her interview, the process of tribal recognition with the United States government, teaching English to Vietnam refugees, and the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch. April 6, 2023 Transcript Suzy Karasik: Good afternoon. Today is November 3rd, 2022. My name is Suzy Karasik and I am interviewing Roberta Estrada as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Roberta Estrada, thank you for joining me today. Roberta Estrada: My pleasure. Karasik: Great. So, I think probably the best part--the best place to start is a little bit of background--where you were born--and let' ; s talk about what was your childhood, like when you went to school, and how you identified yourself. So, I' ; ll give you plenty of time to go over that. Estrada: Well, I was born in--at Camp Pendleton at the old Marine Corps Hospital in 1945, and I' ; m the oldest of three children. My parents met at Camp Pendleton because my dad is from the Midwest, and we' ; re a very tight-knit family, and did a lot of things together. My mother i--wa--well, she' ; s passed away, but my mother was French and Native American from San Luis Rey area, and I am actually a--let me think now, what--third, fourth-born native of the area. So, I went to school very, very short period of time in Oceanside where we lived at the time when I started kindergarten. And my dad says, " ; No, that' ; s too close to Camp Pendleton. I' ; m out of the Marine Corps now. So, we' ; re going to move." ; So we moved to Vista (chuckles), long ways away. So, I only attended there for two months. At the time there was no busing for kindergarten children in Vista, so I didn' ; t go to school until I went into first grade. Went for two years in Vista and my dad says, " ; Met a couple and they said ' ; Oh no, you have to put your child in school in San Marcos because the schools are smaller and we liked them.' ; " ; So, he says, " ; Okay, we' ; ll shift you over there." ; So, I came to San Marcos in the third grade, and was there until I finished eighth grade, first graduating class out of what was then Alvin Dunn School, and then--now it' ; s changed to La Mirada Academy. Then I went to--we didn' ; t have high school in San Marcos. So, the kids that--the children that went to school in San Marcos and finished eighth grade were split up between Escondido and a few of us went in to Vista, because we were on the border of Vista and San Marcos. And, it was a much bigger school than San Marcos was when it was built, and so my dad says, " ; We' ; ll get you in there." ; Okay. So, my junior year of high school, I switched back to San Marcos schools with all of the people that--children--all the friends that I had and been raised with through school, and I finished high school the year that San Marcos became a city in 1963. Karasik: Very interesting. Estrada: Yes, and it' ; s been-- Karasik: And how was your experience there, like, when you said you were happy to go back to the school that you' ; d been with your friends in grade school? And were there other Native American children there? And let' ; s talk a little bit about also your Mexican last name and how you felt that might have been an advantage. Estrada: Well, at that time, my last name was not Estrada. At that time, my last name was Guy, very Anglo. So, in school, while I was in school in Vista, there were more of the local Hispanic children, and I don' ; t think I even associated with Native American children being--or picked out children as being--Native American at that time. All the way through school. I don' ; t believe I ever did. And I don' ; t think that that even happened until after I finished high school and I did go to college and majored in Spanish, and with a general education for elementary studies. But, I don' ; t ever remember connecting to the Native Americans at that time. My husband, his family--well, his fam--his immediate family was from Anaheim, but his father was from Pala. So, he was the Native. But he had the Native American in him. And the only reason that he got the Native American--the last name of Estrada was because that--his grandfather worked for people whose name was Estrada, and if they went to get any kind of bank accounts or do anything in town, they had to have a last name. They couldn' ; t just go by their Native American names. So, they took the last name of what we call the dueños, and those are the people that had the--the owners of the ranches and that' ; s where the Estrada name came from. But, um, my husband was the first one to get in--no, actually my mother, because her mother was Native American, and her father was also Native American. And s--their--my grandfather is from one of the prominent families in Oceanside, the Foussat family. And he is one of three brothers. So, he had a truck farm and we all learned how to help out on the truck farm. And that' ; s when I met a lot of the other Natives, I guess you would say, or--well, actually there weren' ; t a lot of Natives. There were more Hispanics than there were Natives that, uh, were in that area. Karasik: And back in that time, those years, did they k--refer to people as Natives or as Indians. Estrada: As Indians and if you talked to my father-in-law who was half-blood, he said that they could not claim being Indian or Native American and--or they would be put on--just like on the opposite side of the room at the end of the line or whatever. They had to claim--they ha--the Hispanic background, the Mexican background, in order to be eligible for a lot of things. And-- Karasik: So, this was talked about at home, and you were prepared to know how to best present yourself when you were in school or those situations. Estrada: I would say not until I probably was late high school. Karasik: Mm-hmm. But it was talked about at home. Estrada: A little bit. Well, be--the first thing that happened was that my father didn' ; t speak any--well, my mother spoke Spanish and that--because that was--they didn' ; t use a lot of the Native language at the time, and my father didn' ; t. So, it was, " ; Speak to the children in English. They need to learn in English." ; And they were married in the Catholic church, but my father had to--and in San Luis Rey Mission, in fact--but my father had to sign papers to say that my mother was to be allowed to raise the children as she was raised. So, because he was from the Midwest, and-- Karasik: She would be allowed-- Estrada: She would be allowed-- (nodding) Karasik: --to raise the children. Estrada: Yes. She would be. Karasik: And this was the San Luis Rey Mission-- Estrada: Yes. Karasik: --Band. Estrada: They were--well, yes. They were married in--at the San Luis Rey Mission in 1944, and that' ; s when--shortly after I was--I was probably about late high school when I--when my mother was getting more involved with the Native American group. She was more into helping others than--than trying to--to say " ; You' ; re--you' ; re Native American, Roberta. You need to think about this. You need to do this. You need to do that." ; She never really pointed that out to us. I have a younger sister and a younger brother, and the three of us have become pretty involved with the tribe now, of which I am part of the Tribal Council. My husband was part of the Tribal Council first, but when he could not do it any longer, then I was helping him by sitting by his side to start with. And then--and then I became part of the Tribal Council itself, aft--no, before he passed away. Karasik: I' ; m curious there. It sounds like, because you became part of the Tribal Council, and you are now, are women more respected and it' ; s a matriarchal kind of a society? And how did that feel for you, looking at other cultures where women weren' ; t perhaps quite as-- Estrada: Yes. There is more, um,--When you--If you look at our Tribal Council, I think it is a majority of women. I never even thought about it that way. But yes. And the other thing is that I would say that there were times when I would say, " ; Why don' ; t they let her speak. Why don' ; t--Why does he have to talk for her?" ; You know, when I would meet other families. And I, when I came--I went away to college, came back, and taught school here in San Marcos. And, um, the first class I taught was a kindergarten class and they were hiring--I was hired as a bilingual teacher, because I did have a Spanish major. And I can remember parents bringing their children in and not being allowed. The--the mother usually was not allowed to speak for the--for--for them. Or she would speak for the child, but if I asked a question, the mother would always turn and look to see if it was okay to answer or not. Karasik: And what year was this? Estrada: 1976. When I changed my name. Well, actually I came back in ' ; 70--let' ; s see, ' ; 68. Karasik: Right. Estrada: I came back in ' ; 68. I--What I had intended in--When I went to college, I went to college at a--what was called a county Normal School in the state of Wisconsin, because that was where my dad was from. I moved there. I lived with family so that I didn' ; t have to pay the extra in--tuition for anything. And when I came--and that was an experience in itself, because the-- I mean, my first teaching classes, my student teaching classes, were in one-room schools where they had everybody. The first room was just kindergarten through fourth grade, and the teacher I was teaching under was actually the principal of the school too. The second session was (chuckles) an eighth grade and that was even more interesting because that eighth grade had these kids that were much bigger than I was at the time. And, I mean, ' ; cuz it was only two years after I had finished high school. And, uh, then when I--I said, " ; You know. I like Wisconsin. I like the changes in the weather and the foliage and all of that. It was just really nice. But I' ; m a California girl." ; I came back. I went to school when they were first building Cal State San Bernardino. And I finished off my--Well, first when I came back, I had to get the basics from Palomar because we skipped right to the last two years of school. And now I had to go back and get my beginning language, my beginning math, my beginning sciences that the colleges require. Then I went to--When I finished at Palomar, I went to Cal State San Bernardino for two years and got my Life Credential for teaching, which is a no more existing thing now, anyhow. I don' ; t have to go back to take classes in order to teach. I could--I' ; ve been retired for thirteen plus years now. But I could go in and apply and still be eligible to get a job now if I wanted to, which I don' ; t because I' ; m too involved with too many other things. Karasik: Great. Um, yeah, I' ; m aware of that. They do not offer the Lifetime anymore. So, what was it like when you said, " ; I' ; m a California girl, and I want to come back." ; It sounds like a lot of things had changed within you as well. And I thought it was really interesting the way that you noticed how the women didn' ; t feel as comfortable--comfortable to speak. But what kind of changes did you see when you came back to the area, and--not even so much what did you see, but how did it feel for you? Obviously, you were thrilled to be back. But what--what did you kind of notice then and how did that shape the way that you carried on with your life? Estrada: Well, I think that I noticed at that time, probably into my maybe second or third year here, that the parents, the mothers were becoming more involved in what was going on. And they were more interested in how to help their children at the time. And that was a--a plus. I had a lot of connections to people that I could call on in the city also that helped out. I mean, yes, we had--I had friends that would bring their sheep in to show what happened to the sheep when they sheared it. And one of the boys that graduated from high school with me ended up to be the fire captain and I would call them and they would come out and do demonstrations during the--that. So, it just--and parents just really wanted to be a part of what was going on. And I think the moms became more involved because dads had to be working. Karasik: Right. And so was that part of the curriculum or was it--were you more free then to say " ; Hey, I think it would be a good idea for these children to see these kinds of living situations." ; Estrada: It was integrated into the curriculum. Yes. I' ; m going to say it that way. Because I could make a lesson--and I' ; m not bragging--but I could make a lesson out of, you know, a Hershey' ; s candy bar and teaching fractions. But it was something that you just made the children feel like they were part of your school community then. Other than that, they didn' ; t, you know--you go to school, you sit at a desk, you see, you pay attention to what the te--You' ; re here to learn is what they were taught. And I have to admit that was one of the things that the parents really instilled in them. But we would integrate a lot of the-- Karasik: Life skills. Estrada: --skills. Life skills. And we-- Karasik: Yes. Estrada: We made ice cream, so they' ; d learn how to measure. And we would--we celebrated all the cultures. You couldn' ; t celebrate Christmas as Christmas. This was an interesting one. So I incorporated all the different countries that I could think of and incorporated it into finding out about different cultures and their traditions at that time. So that was how I helped. Karasik: And there wasn' ; t a problem with that? Estrada: Not as long as I did that. I was-- Karasik: That you knew of. Estrada: There were--I was observed just like every other teacher had to be observed. I was observed a lot, and everything--I never had any problems with--and we had to turn in lesson plans on it. You know, it was just like " ; you want me to tell you exactly what I' ; m going to be doing in every single minute?" ; " ; Yes, we do." ; " ; Okay. So, I' ; ll write down general ones and you can come in and look any time you want." ; (laughs) Karasik: Right. Well, it sounds like, uh, it was definitely an--a--a--a plus or an advantage for you to have been from the area, having gone to another area to kind of gain that knowledge including your school. But that experience. And so would you say that it was definitely a benefit for you to feel like more imbedded in the community and you had all those-- Estrada: Oh, yes. Karasik: --connections and that made your life a lot more. Estrada: And because I taught for thirty-two years, I actually ended up teaching children of classmates that I had in school. Because a lot a--at that time they weren' ; t moving out of California. I mean, they weren' ; t moving out of San Marcos (laughs) as far as that goes. A lot of people stayed. Karasik: And people weren' ; t moving in as much, as well, as they are now. Estrada: We did--yeah. The--in my later years in teaching, then we had the--the children from Vietnam, the chil--you know, that--the immigrants from there. So-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Estrada: During that Vietnam time. Karasik: And I would assume that you integrate that--integrated them into the class. Or how did you handle some of that? Estrada: (laughs) You' ; re going to laugh, but I would speak Spanish to them. And I forget--I forget that wasn' ; t their second lan--their first language. And I would--but I--uh, there' ; s just one little--one little Vietnamese girl that sticks out in my mind so vividly is because she did not speak English when she started. So, we ran the--well, we were already using an ESL program because of going in to--well, having mostly Spanish children in the classroom at the time. And then, um, she made such a tremendous advance. By the time she graduated from high school, she was Valedictorian. Karasik: Oh, isn' ; t that great! Estrada: Yeah. So, in her--in her twelve years, you know, she was, um--she just moved right up the ladder. But it didn' ; t hurt her at all that we were speaking to her in Spanish. She picked up some! (laughs) Karasik: At a young age, yes. Estrada: Uh-huh. Karasik: It' ; s a lot easier. Well, I' ; d kind of like to move on to--I mean there' ; s--we could talk about how your work has changed since then. But I do happen to know that you' ; re a--a basket weaver. I don' ; t know if it' ; s a--if there' ; s certain levels or if you' ; re a professional. Estrada: I' ; m a beginner! Karasik: Oh, you are? But you' ; re very involved with the community and so maybe you could tell us, then. You were probably noticing changes, because certainly after the war and then after the Vietnam War, you know, society was changing considerably. Estrada: Oh, yes! Karasik: But when did you--like with the basket weaving and some of that, has that just been later in your retirement years or was it in--and you were raising children? Estrada: I have two sons, yes. I have two sons that are--I don' ; t even know--they' ; re 43 and 40, I think, right now. Forty--no, they' ; re 41 and 44. One' ; s going to be 44 next week. And I have to say that I didn' ; t really become involved in--as much with the tribe until after I retired. So, it' ; s been in the last thirteen plus years, only because I didn' ; t feel like I had enough time. I--I know you were a teacher also. But I--And I know that that just took up so much of my time, and my husband used to tell me, " ; Aren' ; t you done--Aren' ; t you off your job clock yet?" ; Or something like that would always be the remark. Now, he passed away three years ago, and I think that' ; s when I' ; ve really become more involved in the basket weaving, only because I felt like I needed to have something more that occupied me than sitting and thinking about what was going on. But, my cousin Diania Caudell says, " ; Come with me. You' ; re not working today. Come with me. I' ; m going to do a presentation at a school," ; or " ; Come and help me." ; That' ; s how it started. And, when we teach in the schools, we do a different style of basket only because it' ; s a little bit easier and we don' ; t use traditional plants at that time, because you don' ; t know if they' ; ve had any insecticide in them. You don' ; t know if they--you know, how safe or they' ; re going to have a reaction. And that' ; s the last thing you want if you go into a cla--into a group of 50 kids and have to do a--a--a basket and have somebody breaking out with a rash all over them. But so we went to cane products and we do a basic weave, and we make the starts for them. So, that' ; s what I' ; ve been doing now. Because we' ; re doing it in another couple of weeks. We have a couple of groups going on. And then, they just finish the basket. And that has been going with kids from, oh, Montessori aged schools--I mean, Montessori--for preschools all the way through to like eighth grade, and then some--Well, we' ; ve done it with the Cal State San Marcos and San Diego State also, um, college kids. Because they were in their Native American classes and their Native Studies classes, and we did baskets with them. And they would come and visit what we call Indian Rock in Vista. And it' ; s a puberty rock for girls, puberty stage. And so, um, they would come up and the--the schools have been--wa--Cal State San Marcos was involved in putting native plants there. And so, we worked very closely with them. I have a cousin now who was a professor at San Diego State, so we' ; ve become involved with some of her classes too. We also have--we do demonstrations that we call demonstrations where we use the native plants and do the native weave which is a little bit different and a little bit more complex because you have to use the awl in order to get the thread through. And so, we use the--the juncus and the--and the deer grass, and we' ; re going to be doing that tomorrow! At a school in San Luis Rey. Karasik: Oh, there' ; s so much there. One thing--when you said " ; cane," ; I--I' ; m--I' ; m thinking sugar cane. Estrada: Oh, no. It' ; s-- Karasik: Wha-- Estrada: --it' ; s the in--inside part of bamboo. Karasik: Of bamboo! Okay. Estrada: Yeah. They take it out and they compress it. And so, then it--and it--it comes-- Karasik: Now, who' ; s they. Do you get it--? Estrada: It' ; s from--we get it from a company in--in--in Huntington Beach. Karasik: So, it is processed. Estrada: It' ; s processed. Karasik: And they grow those there like they have maybe a ware--a greenhouse of-- Estrada: He gets it into a warehouse. We get it from a guy in a warehouse up there. Karasik: Uh-huh. Estrada: Only because, um, it' ; s just safer-- Karasik: It' ; s trusted. Estrada: --to use with it-- Karasik: --a trusted source, yeah. Estrada: I should have brought it inside because I-- Karasik: I--yeah. Estrada: I had some outside because I had to bring some for Diania! (laughs) Karasik: Oh yeah? And so, the other thing that I think is really interesting when you said " ; Puberty Rock." ; So is this something that was passed down for generations, and do you think that our an--your ancestors, I mean the-- Estrada: I' ; m sure that there were ancestors that went there and you--there' ; s markings. It' ; s on Indian Rock Road in Vista, off of Indian Rock. But it has markings and signs, handprints. But then of course, in the modern day, it' ; s been vandalized and so we' ; ve worked a lot with different companies and different schools and different technicians in order to find out how to remove a lot of that, because you can' ; t just go up there and paint over it like they do on the curbs and the houses and the sides of the walls, now. So, it has--(chuckles) it has poison oak around it, on purpose--(laughs) Karasik: Oh! Estrada: --now, so that you can' ; t go near it. But it was--the--Moro Hill near Camp Pendleton is part of our creation story. And it was from there a short distance to this Indian Rock and that' ; s where girls would go and do their handprints, or do a s--sign that, you know, a-- Karasik: Like a coming-of-age ceremony. Estrada: It' ; s much different than the boys. The boys go through a much rougher one. I mean, ants, and I don' ; t know what else. But the girls did, but-- Karasik: Did you participate? Estrada: I did not participate in that. And I was trying to get that information out of my mom. She reset--she told me that she remembered doing something, but then that' ; s it, you know. I never really--before she passed away--never really found out what the " ; it" ; was or the " ; something" ; was. Karasik: Right. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: And that' ; s―is there some sadness around that, or just wishing that you― Estrada: Oh, I―definitely now, because I' ; m learning so much more about the Native culture and the tribe itself, the intertwining of the families, the knowing that I have cousins beyond cousins, this kind of thing, and trying to have somebody right here (taps her right shoulder) on my little shoulder sometimes that would say, " ; Oh, that' ; s the daughter of your aunt blah-blah-blah. Or your cousin blah," ; and just trying to make sure that I knew. And she guided along that, because she was the--considered the elder in the tribe, when she passed away. And that' ; s been four years, a little bit over four years now. But, attended everything, and so that' ; s when I would learn more. I' ; d say, " ; I' ; ve seen them before, mom, but I don' ; t really remember." ; She says, " ; Well, when we were at your uncle' ; s house in the valley, that part of his family―" ; And I thought, okay. Those were the kinds of things that― Karasik: When you say, " ; I' ; ve seen them," ; you' ; re talking about some of the people that were in your family. Estrada: You would―either the family or people that would be associated with the family. I mean, I was at a Dia de Los Muertos last weekend in Fallbrook, and I thought, " ; Gee, a lot of these people (turning her head from side to side) I recognize." ; And I would stop to think, and I' ; d have to either go up and ask them, " ; Have I met you before?" ; (laughs) Or something like that. So that I would be able to make a connection. Karasik: Mmm. Estrada: And some of them I actually had met before. Karasik: Great. So, was there any, um, ritual that was done in the home, or anything that your parents ever talked about (Estrada shakes her head to indicate no) that was kind of handed down from the ancestors. Because I know there was certainly a time―like you said, sometimes it was more advantageous to be Latin or― Estrada: Mexican. Karasik: ―Mexican. Did you feel like, oh I would--I would love to have known more of the rituals or some of the ceremonies. Estrada: I' ; m just learning a lot about that now. As a family, we did not practice a lot of that. But then―I say we didn' ; t practice a lot of that. What I really feel like, maybe in a roundabout way, we did, because we always had large family gatherings. Now, in our tribe, we' ; ve had a powwow the second weekend of June every year until Covid hit. But it, um,―prior to that, it was―we would be gathering at a--a park, at a water place. I mean we were up at some creek up in Pamu―the Pauma area. Just places where―and it would be huge family gatherings, and, um, because there were eleven in my mom' ; s family, and then their kids and down through that, so― And then, besides the other brothers. One brother--one of my grandfather' ; s brother--had all daughters. I think there' ; s eleven or twelve of those. And then the other brother had six or seven. So that they―it--you know, so you just kind of (makes pulling apart gesture with her hands)―and then when you get these families all together― (makes pushing together gesture with her fists) My grand--my paren--my grandfather' ; s fa--family lived in Oceanside. And so, he was kind of the in-between the San Luis Rey brother and the Cardiff brother. So, it made a―The people in my mother' ; s family―I felt like she was a--a mediator or the in-between person to get to know this brother' ; s kids with this brother' ; s kids (gestures pulling from the left and the right into the center). And that' ; s kind of what I' ; m doing now. Karasik: Interesting. Estrada: Following in the footsteps, I guess you' ; d say. Karasik: Of your mother. How--what a beautiful way to honor her. Estrada: Well, and on top of that, I have my husband' ; s family, who is from Pala and San Jacinto area, and trying to get them to know the rest of this family. So, you know, it' ; s always " ; I' ; m going to call Roberta, because she' ; ll know." ; Well, if Roberta doesn' ; t know, she tries to figure it out and find out who it is, you know, make a connection. Karasik: Right. So, I wanted to―I guess I would use the word " ; pride." ; Was―because the--the times have changed now, di--but, when you were younger or compared to now, was the certain pride about being Native American? And then there were times where that was not talked about, like where you said it was easier to say I' ; m Mexican. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: And, um, whe--where is that now, and h--how has that changed over the years? And do you feel much more--more pride and feel that it' ; s more important? Or― Estrada: I think it' ; s very important, because there are seven Luseño tribes in the area. And San Luis Rey is the only unrecognized tribe. We are still trying to get the recognition process done. But I think we' ; re working at it together. We may not be federally recognized, but we are recognized by the people and the cities in the area. Last night, we went for a proclamation from the city of Oceanside. And, um, I think there were ten or twelve of us there last night, at the City Council meeting. And, um, it just made me feel like, " ; Oh! This is getting good." ; Because now they' ; re becoming more involved. For a while, it' ; s always the same group. And that group is getting up there in years. And we need to pass it along. And we' ; re trying to―right now, I' ; m working with a younger cousin who has, um, aspirations to involve the younger people, the thirty-and-unders people, to get in--more involved. And so, we' ; re working together and getting those―I couldn' ; t believe the amount of people that were there that were in that age group. And then at the―We went--After that, we went to the Inyan--Indian monument that' ; s in San Luis Rey Mission cemetery, in the old cemetery part. There' ; s an Indian monument, and we had quite a large group there, that we put candles out and all the great-grandmothers and uncles and aunts, and so forth, around there. It was very, very touching moment, to feel--to feel that so many of these people―And then, at the end they were even saying, " ; Well, we' ; d like to know more about this. Or maybe learn about that." ; Because there was a period of time when―I know my boys― Karasik: I wanted to ask you about your boys, if they' ; ve claimed their culture. Estrada: My boys did not know a lot about the Native Americans to start with. Karasik: Those two pages in the history book weren' ; t enough in eighth grade? (chuckles) Estrada: No. And it--they were not. And now they' ; re, um―they don' ; t live in the area. They both live in Arizona now. But they' ; re―because of their work, and they will ask questions, though. And they will want, say, " ; Oh, are we going to do that this year? Oh, I think I' ; ll come for powwow. Are we going to have it?" ; " ; Mom, I don' ; t think I' ; m quite sure on what to do with this." ; But they both learned how to make their frybread. (chuckles) Karasik: Yes. Estrada: That' ; s something that was stuck with them, and that was there. So― Karasik: Yeah. I think it' ; s really interesting how throughout the decades, if you will, it' ; s been sort of not in fashion― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: ―to look at your culture. Now, it' ; s very much in fashion. Estrada: Land acknowledgment, right now, is one of the big things. And so, you' ; ll hear that when you go to different, um, occasions, or different presentations. They' ; ll say, " ; We want to acknowledge that we are on Native land." ; We want to― Karasik: Absolutely. Estrada: ―you know. That' ; s more going on now, and you see that in their speeches. Whereas you didn' ; t see that before. Karasik: Absolutely. I--I find that in--in, just when I' ; m on a Zoom―in fact, my name―and then I put what city I' ; m in, and then I put what stolen lands that I occupy. Be― Estrada: Mm-hmm. Right now, we' ; re on (gestures quotes with her fingers) Karasik: Kume― Estrada: ―Native land. We' ; re on Ku―we' ; re―well, yes. We' ; re not on Kumeyaay land. We' ; re on―we' ; re in between, now. It' ; s between the Luseño and the Kumeyaay area. Karasik: And so, Luseño is sort of the umbrella of the six or seven tribes― Estrada: Seven tribes. Karasik: ―that you were talking about. And the recognition―are there certain aspects of it from the government or from the tr--tribe itself? Estrada: Government. Karasik: From the government. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: So, the tribes, for sure, recognize you, but it' ; s some kind of a governmental requirements to― Estrada: Yeah. There' ; s a lot of r--there' ; s a lot of red tape, you may as well say― Karasik: Right, right. Estrada: ―that you have to jump through. Karasik: And--and is― Estrada: You have to have proof of being a government from a--for a period of time. And so, that' ; s one of the things. Karasik: Of being like a sovereign― Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: ―nation or--or― Estrada: Yeah. Karasik: You know. Estrada: Where you have a―where you do things then. So, you' ; ll find if they' ; re doing any activities, you' ; ll find people that are recording that, so they' ; ll have a recording of what' ; s going on now. And― Karasik: Documentation― Estrada: ―documentation of all of that. Karasik: ―every―Right. Estrada: Going back to when we were talking about the basket weaving, we do a lot of things with the--the schools now. And so then, before we start with that, we tell them where we' ; re from. Yes, we know that this part―now, like when we went to do it at San Diego State. Yes, we are on Kumeyaay land right now. We were invited to do this. And what we use for the schools is a Cherokee style. And so, we were given permission from Tekua, so that it was--would be available. Giving―I don' ; t want to say permission―I want to say you recognize where everything came from. You don' ; t say it' ; s yours if it' ; s not yours. Karasik: So, there' ; s a respect for the origin of it, and then there' ; s also a--a, like you said, a recognition or a--um, yeah. I--I' ; m--I' ; m thinking of so many things. I--You said " ; tekua." ; Is that some organization, or what― Estrada: It' ; s the Cherokee, Cherokee band. Karasik: Oh! Okay. And who' ; s that umbrella? Estrada: Cherokee. Karasik: Ok. And then Tekua is underneath― Estrada: Yeah. They' ; re part of the Cherokee. Karasik: ―that. And then are they a little bit more going east, like to Arizona? Or are they― Estrada: No. They' ; re, um, more, um, Oklahoma area. Karasik: Oh, right. Okay. Estrada: In that area. Karasik: Okay. Um, oh, there' ; s just so much there. And you' ; ve really been wonderful to kind of branch into some of the questions that I wanted to ask you. Um, I think I--I want you to tell me how you feel about doing this oral history, and how important it is. What--what are--what kinds of things do you want our descendants to know, and how important will that be for--for them, and that' ; s why we' ; re doing this oral history. And then, maybe you can add in there some of your accomplishments, if there' ; s any regrets that you might have had, um, and kind of how your life path has changed, I think more since your retirement, and how that feels for you to, um, be more involved and have that pride and want to really pass that on and tell this story. Estrada: Well, it' ; s interesting, because I do have two twenty-year-old grandchildren, a sixteen-year-old, and a six-year-old, and trying to make them understand their heritage at the same time. And so, yes, I' ; m doing that with them, but I hope that other people are letting their children know about their culture and heritage, no matter what culture and heritage it is. And, um, having the pride, not hiding yourself. And it' ; s important to know that one of the things that--I mean, San Marcos―I have to say. I don' ; t live in San Marcos. I lived in San Marcos at one time. I did after I was married. Also, I lived there for a short time before we moved into Escondido and then Vista. So, we' ; ve lived in North County. But it' ; s always had a place in my heart. And the people are just so interested in what everybody else is doing. I grew up in this area being friends with people from the egg ranch--Prohoroff' ; s Egg Ranch--and just having, you know, and like all those race horses over here on the other side, and then the farmers on the other side. So, it was a big diverse. And I need to have my boys tell their kids that there' ; s more to it than Minecraft on the computer. Karasik: Uh, absolutely. Estrada: And so― Karasik: So, when you said egg ranch, it was like, " ; oh, there' ; s probably a whole story there." ; So, some of those, the egg ranch and the others that you will mention, they' ; re still here. So that' ; s― Estrada: (shakes her head). Karasik: Oh, they' ; re not. Oh. Estrada: C.S.U. S.M. was--is built― Karasik: On― Estrada: ―on the egg ranch, on Prohoroff' ; s Egg Ranch. Karasik: Oh! On all those lands. How was that? Estrada: It was hard at first. Karasik: Were there burial grounds there as well― Estrada: Um, probably. Karasik: ―that we know of? Estrada: No. Probably, probably. In the extension that they were building at San Marcos High School, they' ; re--in where they' ; re working, where the construction is now, there will be a lot of orange fencing. In the Creek Project in San Marcos, too, there' ; s a lot of orange fencing, because that' ; s all--the Natives lived along the water source, and I know that my mom' ; s aunts worked and--and my mom--I don' ; t think my mom' ; s mother did but--my mom' ; s aunts were in a lot of those camps, cooking for the people that were, you know, working on, or living in these areas, or working in these areas. Karasik: Yeah. I' ; m curious there, because I--I know back, you know, pre-modern technology, they often moved because first they respected the land. And there were different growing periods and animals. There are all kinds of reasons that they would move. And so, that would be then sometimes how the women might go there and then support that, or― Estrada: Ours went--Our tribe went from the ocean to the mountains, because they would go up in the mountains and collect the acorns and so forth. But my grandfather' ; s father was a sheep herder. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Estrada: And he would--would go up in that area. His―My grandmother' ; s brothers were miners and helped at the mining area in the Pala area. So, you know there was this way, and this way. San Luis Rey Mission is built on our Indian village site. The, um―they were given the opportunity to move up to the mountains or just spread (indicates spreading out in groups with her hands) and diverse themselves, and that' ; s what they did. A lot of them went into the farming and into construction and things like that. Karasik: So, you heard about your mother' ; s mother and father, or your--even like your husband' ; s parents and grandparents. Those were just stories that were kind of passed down. Do you feel― Estrada: It' ; s all oral story. Karasik: Yeah. And--and so that oral history, you― Estrada: Is important. Karasik: ―Absolutely. Estrada: It' ; s not all recorded, except (points to her head) up here now. Karasik: And that' ; s a lot why we' ; re doing it here. Estrada: That' ; s a big reason why I' ; m very into what' ; s going on right now. Yes. Karasik: And I think you' ; ve done a fantastic job. Estrada: Oh. Karasik: We could go on and on. I also think it' ; s ironic that, um, Cal State San Marcos, who' ; s doing this project, is on that land. Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: So, in a way, it is--they are giving back. Estrada: They' ; re sharing. Karasik: Which is--is really good. Estrada: The best part of this whole thing is this " ; site" ; (gestures air quotes) that we' ; re in today was actually on the elementary school that I went to. It was our cafeteria. Karasik: This specific building? Estrada: This specific building. It was our cafeteria, and we had our (gestures quotes with her hands) " ; dances" ; inside this building. We did our choir from the stage. Karasik: This stage? Estrada: This stage. The only thing that' ; s different about it now is there used to be a kitchen connected. Because when we were in maybe fourth grade up, you could be a--you could be a cafeteria helper. Karasik: Sure. Estrada: And, um, you' ; d help serve at the lunch line, and I did that. But it― Karasik: It' ; s interesting. When you said " ; dancing." ; So, it was okay to dance. And that dancing, was it more like " ; American culture?" ; Or was― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: It was. Estrada: Yes. It had nothing to do--do (shaking her head) with the Natives at all. Karasik: Okay. Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: Yeah. Um, I could talk about that, but this is your story. Estrada: (laughs) Karasik: Um, so, I' ; m thinking there' ; s not very many regrets. It sounds like you' ; ve really had a wonderful life. Estrada: I think after my retirement, um, I became more involved and then it made me feel even more proud of my heritage. Karasik: Yes. Estrada: And then the--on top of that, um, I made a lot of connections to different family members and my husband' ; s family, and trying to get that all focused on, so that I could intermingle that so I could pass that on to my boys who could pass it on to their children. And I really feel that by doing things like this and coming out and talking about it―I know that when I first started, Diania would say, " ; Let' ; s go." ; Okay. I' ; d go and I' ; d stand in the background. Well, I listened a lot. Well, that' ; s how I learned my Spanish in the first place, because my grandfather sold to―he sold the rabbits and the guy that came to pick up the rabbits couldn' ; t speak English and he would speak Spanish to him. And here would be Roberta by his side. So, I mean, he was one of the influential people, I' ; m learning, that second language that was so important in this area. But, um, now I' ; m interested in trying to pick up the Luseño language, the Chamteela. I can' ; t even say it. Because we' ; re called the Payómkawichum, which are the people of the west. And so, it goes all along the western coast and in--into the mountain. Karasik: And is there anyone still around― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: ―to teach some of that? Estrada: Yes. I have to take my time and go to those classes. Karasik: So― Estrada: Right now, they' ; re just starting some Zoom classes for―they called it for the young people. But there' ; s a lot of people that want to learn it beyond that. So, we' ; ll see what happens. But they' ; re doing them on Zoom right now. Karasik: You― Estrada: Because you need to hear it. Karasik: I' ; m sure, yes. Estrada: You need to hear it. You can' ; t do it from the book― Karasik: You have to― Estrada: ―and read it. And, um, I' ; ve got several little kid' ; s books that I' ; ve gotten from my grandkids that have the English on one side and the Luseño language on the other side and yes, you can do it that way, but you still don' ; t hear the correct pronunciation. Karasik: Yeah. That' ; s really important. The--it' ; s--I' ; m feeling like in some ways it' ; s full circle. You know. It' ; s coming back full circle, and now a--a--the pride is really more known amongst― Estrada: I think it' ; s more evident now and you can feel it. Karasik: And even outside of your culture. Estrada: Yeah, you can see it coming back. Because looking out at the people that were sitting at the City Hall last night, and them paying attention to what was being said about our culture, about ourselves, by the captain at the time. Mel was talking and you just look out at the people and you could see them really into what was being said about what was going on there, so― Karasik: That must feel wonderful. Estrada: Yeah. And so, I mean, it makes you feel. I told them that. I told somebody else, after the Dia de Los Muertos thing last night. I just go, " ; You know, I really feel very proud to be part of this group." ; And it ma--it makes you feel like― Karasik: Right. Estrada: ―you' ; re doing something good. Karasik: Absolutely. I' ; m so happy for you. Estrada: (chuckles) Karasik: And so, I guess, um, in closing, obviously if there' ; s anything else that you' ; d really like to say, but I feel like we' ; ve had a--a really wonderful conversation. And I hope you do as well. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: But if you―you know, there' ; s a lot of work done now too, around, beyond the veil. Like people have passed and sometimes people want to get in touch with them, or wish that they could have, you know, tell― Estrada: Conversations. Karasik: Right! And so, if you had that―if some of our--your descendants had the opportunity to talk with you, which is a lot of what this will be for them― Estrada: Oh, yes. Karasik: ―what--what would you tell them that is most important, the things that they should really pay attention to, and the things that don' ; t be so concerned with. Like, what' ; s the most important thing, particularly involving your culture and how they want to live their lives that--that honors your--your history, your heritage. Estrada: I would say―well, I do this to my boys right now. I tell them, you know, " ; You need to live your life like you feel. But you also need to remember and respect all the adults." ; I mean, as we were raising the two boys, Richard and I did not allow them to speak out of turn to--to them. Not to say harsh things or anything like that. And I think that that' ; s fallen away right now. And that' ; s really something important that needs to be brought back, is the respect for your ancestors. Whether they be living or not. And I hope that this is one of the programs that shows the importance of the lives of people that have been and what they' ; ve gone through. I mean, nothing' ; s been real easy for me, but I have to say that with the support that you have, no matter where it comes from, it' ; s important that they pick it up. Karasik: And how important that support was in your life. Had you been, for example, stayed back in Wisconsin―although they have some pretty strong tribal activities― Estrada: I have―my dad has got a brother-in-law that his whole family, all his nieces and nephews, are really into it. But it' ; s not a―I guess it' ; s because it' ; s not immediately connected. Maybe that' ; s what it is? I mean " ; in bloodline" ; means nothing. Or how much blood―" ; quantum" ; does not mean anything. It means--what means something--what should mean something to them is that they were related to someone who spoke up and tried to help others in the area. And that' ; s what we' ; re doing as a tribe, non-federally recognized tribe. Yes, we have a California recognition, and basically that' ; s because of water rights. But the Califor--the federally recognized tribes, some of them, look down on you now. But who' ; s doing the work? Just keep plugging along and making sure that you' ; re doing what you think is best for yourself and your family. Karasik: That' ; s beautiful. Who' ; s doing the work. Estrada: Yeah. Karasik: Yes. Well, I think this is probably a good place to stop― Estrada: Okay. Karasik: ―all though we could go on. And we' ; ll see what happens with the archives, and what else we might want to do. Like, it would be really wonderful to videotape a basket weaving class. I don' ; t know if that' ; s possible. And I' ; m certainly wanting to attend and--and learn more, but― Estrada: There will be some on November twelfth. That' ; s basket weaving. Karasik: Is that the same day as the Luseño honoring that? Estrada: (nods) Karasik: Yes. Estrada: Yes, it is. Karasik: Oh, and we didn' ; t mention, which I thought was so wonderful, that this happens to be Native American― Estrada: Native American month. Karasik: ―American Heritage month. So, we' ; re celebrating and honoring it. Estrada: (chuckles) Karasik: And we have one of the best elders here. Estrada: Oh, thank you. Karasik: Oh, that was one question I wanted to ask you. The word " ; crone," ; does that come from your culture? Estrada: The what? Karasik: Crone? Estrada: No. Karasik: Okay. It' ; s an elder woman. And I' ; m not really sure where it comes from. I think it might be Celtic or another matriarchal based culture. Estrada: Uh-huh. Karasik: But I think that the respect for the elders in your culture is--is very strong. Estrada: It' ; s very strong. Karasik: And that' ; s really so important. And that--I think what the children―which you have shown in your family and with all your--all your relations. Karasik: Omitaki. Estrada: (laughs) A lot of them. Karasik: Yeah. That' ; s wonderful. Well, thank you so very much. Estrada: And thank you for having me. Karasik: Yes, and again this is Roberta Estrada. And we are in San Marcos at the Heritage Museum here and this is all part of the Cal State San Marcos Archive pro--Oral History program. Estrada: Oral history. Karasik: Yes. Thank you very much! https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Title
A name given to the resource
Estrada, Roberta. Interview November 3, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
Roberta Estrada is a Luiseño woman from the San Luis Rey Mission Band of Mission Indians. She grew up in Vista, CA and was educated throughout the North County school districts. She attended college, earning both Spanish and General Education degrees. She taught ESL in the San Marcos Unified District for thirty-two years. After retirement, she became more involved in the Indigenous community and learned basketry. She accompanies her cousin, Diania Caudell, on school group presentations and teaches audiences about basket-weaving and native plants. Estrada is proud of her Luiseño heritage, and continues reconnecting with family members and getting involved in Indigenous community activities. Estrada also discusses in her interview, the process of tribal recognition with the United States government, teaching English to Vietnam refugees, and the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-31
Subject
The topic of the resource
Basket making
Education, ESL
Endemic plants -- Southern California
Luiseño Indians
Refugees -- Vietnam
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-11-03
Format
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video
Creator
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Roberta Estrada
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Suzy Karasik
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
San Marcos (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Roberta Estrada
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving image
Community history
Native American experience
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/68cc93b349d572359c4680f7c6576237.pdf
742db1a15707b29f357b16addcd6bf62
PDF Text
Text
ROBERTA ESTRADA
TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-11-03
Suzy Karasik: Good afternoon. Today is November 3rd, 2022. My name is Suzy Karasik and I
am interviewing Roberta Estrada as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Roberta
Estrada, thank you for joining me today.
Roberta Estrada: My pleasure.
Karasik: Great. So, I think probably the best part–the best place to start is a little bit of
background—where you were born—and let’s talk about what was your childhood, like when
you went to school, and how you identified yourself. So, I’ll give you plenty of time to go over
that.
Estrada: Well, I was born in–at Camp Pendleton at the old Marine Corps Hospital in 1945, and
I’m the oldest of three children. My parents met at Camp Pendleton because my dad is from the
Midwest, and we’re a very tight-knit family, and did a lot of things together. My mother i–wa–
well, she’s passed away, but my mother was French and Native American from San Luis Rey
area, and I am actually a—let me think now, what—third, fourth-born native of the area. So, I
went to school very, very short period of time in Oceanside where we lived at the time when I
started kindergarten. And my dad says, “No, that’s too close to Camp Pendleton. I’m out of the
Marine Corps now. So, we’re going to move.” So we moved to Vista (chuckles), long ways
away. So, I only attended there for two months. At the time there was no busing for kindergarten
children in Vista, so I didn’t go to school until I went into first grade. Went for two years in Vista
and my dad says, “Met a couple and they said ‘Oh no, you have to put your child in school in
San Marcos because the schools are smaller and we liked them.’” So, he says, “Okay, we’ll shift
you over there.” So, I came to San Marcos in the third grade, and was there until I finished eighth
grade, first graduating class out of what was then Alvin Dunn School, and then—now it’s
changed to La Mirada Academy. Then I went to—we didn’t have high school in San Marcos. So,
the kids that–the children that went to school in San Marcos and finished eighth grade were split
up between Escondido and a few of us went in to Vista, because we were on the border of Vista
and San Marcos. And, it was a much bigger school than San Marcos was when it was built, and
so my dad says, “We’ll get you in there.” Okay. So, my junior year of high school, I switched
back to San Marcos schools with all of the people that–children–all the friends that I had and
been raised with through school, and I finished high school the year that San Marcos became a
city in 1963.
Karasik: Very interesting.
Estrada: Yes, and it’s been—
Karasik: And how was your experience there, like, when you said you were happy to go back to
the school that you’d been with your friends in grade school? And were there other Native
American children there? And let’s talk a little bit about also your Mexican last name and how
you felt that might have been an advantage.
Estrada: Well, at that time, my last name was not Estrada. At that time, my last name was Guy,
very Anglo. So, in school, while I was in school in Vista, there were more of the local Hispanic
Transcribed by
Melissa Martin
1
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�ROBERTA ESTRADA
TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-11-03
children, and I don’t think I even associated with Native American children being—or picked out
children as being—Native American at that time. All the way through school. I don’t believe I
ever did. And I don’t think that that even happened until after I finished high school and I did go
to college and majored in Spanish, and with a general education for elementary studies. But, I
don’t ever remember connecting to the Native Americans at that time. My husband, his family—
well, his fam–his immediate family was from Anaheim, but his father was from Pala. So, he was
the Native. But he had the Native American in him. And the only reason that he got the Native
American—the last name of Estrada was because that–his grandfather worked for people whose
name was Estrada, and if they went to get any kind of bank accounts or do anything in town,
they had to have a last name. They couldn’t just go by their Native American names. So, they
took the last name of what we call the dueños, and those are the people that had the–the owners
of the ranches and that’s where the Estrada name came from. But, um, my husband was the first
one to get in—no, actually my mother, because her mother was Native American, and her father
was also Native American. And s–their–my grandfather is from one of the prominent families in
Oceanside, the Foussat family. And he is one of three brothers. So, he had a truck farm and we
all learned how to help out on the truck farm. And that’s when I met a lot of the other Natives, I
guess you would say, or—well, actually there weren’t a lot of Natives. There were more
Hispanics than there were Natives that, uh, were in that area.
Karasik: And back in that time, those years, did they k–refer to people as Natives or as Indians.
Estrada: As Indians and if you talked to my father-in-law who was half-blood, he said that they
could not claim being Indian or Native American and–or they would be put on—just like on the
opposite side of the room at the end of the line or whatever. They had to claim–they ha–the
Hispanic background, the Mexican background, in order to be eligible for a lot of things. And—
Karasik: So, this was talked about at home, and you were prepared to know how to best present
yourself when you were in school or those situations.
Estrada: I would say not until I probably was late high school.
Karasik: Mm-hmm. But it was talked about at home.
Estrada: A little bit. Well, be–the first thing that happened was that my father didn’t speak any—
well, my mother spoke Spanish and that–because that was–they didn’t use a lot of the Native
language at the time, and my father didn’t. So, it was, “Speak to the children in English. They
need to learn in English.” And they were married in the Catholic church, but my father had to—
and in San Luis Rey Mission, in fact—but my father had to sign papers to say that my mother
was to be allowed to raise the children as she was raised. So, because he was from the Midwest,
and—
Karasik: She would be allowed—
Estrada: She would be allowed— (nodding)
Karasik: —to raise the children.
Transcribed by
Melissa Martin
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�ROBERTA ESTRADA
TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-11-03
Estrada: Yes. She would be.
Karasik: And this was the San Luis Rey Mission—
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: —Band.
Estrada: They were—well, yes. They were married in–at the San Luis Rey Mission in 1944, and
that’s when–shortly after I was–I was probably about late high school when I–when my mother
was getting more involved with the Native American group. She was more into helping others
than–than trying to–to say “You’re–you’re Native American, Roberta. You need to think about
this. You need to do this. You need to do that.” She never really pointed that out to us. I have a
younger sister and a younger brother, and the three of us have become pretty involved with the
tribe now, of which I am part of the Tribal Council. My husband was part of the Tribal Council
first, but when he could not do it any longer, then I was helping him by sitting by his side to start
with. And then–and then I became part of the Tribal Council itself, aft–no, before he passed
away.
Karasik: I’m curious there. It sounds like, because you became part of the Tribal Council, and
you are now, are women more respected and it’s a matriarchal kind of a society? And how did
that feel for you, looking at other cultures where women weren’t perhaps quite as—
Estrada: Yes. There is more, um,—When you—If you look at our Tribal Council, I think it is a
majority of women. I never even thought about it that way. But yes. And the other thing is that I
would say that there were times when I would say, “Why don’t they let her speak. Why don’t–
Why does he have to talk for her?” You know, when I would meet other families. And I, when I
came—I went away to college, came back, and taught school here in San Marcos. And, um, the
first class I taught was a kindergarten class and they were hiring–I was hired as a bilingual
teacher, because I did have a Spanish major. And I can remember parents bringing their children
in and not being allowed. The–the mother usually was not allowed to speak for the–for–for them.
Or she would speak for the child, but if I asked a question, the mother would always turn and
look to see if it was okay to answer or not.
Karasik: And what year was this?
Estrada: 1976. When I changed my name. Well, actually I came back in ’70—let’s see, ’68.
Karasik: Right.
Estrada: I came back in ’68. I–What I had intended in–When I went to college, I went to college
at a–what was called a county Normal School in the state of Wisconsin, because that was where
my dad was from. I moved there. I lived with family so that I didn’t have to pay the extra in–
tuition for anything. And when I came—and that was an experience in itself, because the— I
mean, my first teaching classes, my student teaching classes, were in one-room schools where
they had everybody. The first room was just kindergarten through fourth grade, and the teacher I
was teaching under was actually the principal of the school too. The second session was
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(chuckles) an eighth grade and that was even more interesting because that eighth grade had
these kids that were much bigger than I was at the time. And, I mean, ‘cuz it was only two years
after I had finished high school. And, uh, then when I–I said, “You know. I like Wisconsin. I like
the changes in the weather and the foliage and all of that. It was just really nice. But I’m a
California girl.” I came back. I went to school when they were first building Cal State San
Bernardino. And I finished off my—Well, first when I came back, I had to get the basics from
Palomar because we skipped right to the last two years of school. And now I had to go back and
get my beginning language, my beginning math, my beginning sciences that the colleges require.
Then I went to—When I finished at Palomar, I went to Cal State San Bernardino for two years
and got my Life Credential for teaching, which is a no more existing thing now, anyhow. I don’t
have to go back to take classes in order to teach. I could—I’ve been retired for thirteen plus years
now. But I could go in and apply and still be eligible to get a job now if I wanted to, which I
don’t because I’m too involved with too many other things.
Karasik: Great. Um, yeah, I’m aware of that. They do not offer the Lifetime anymore. So, what
was it like when you said, “I’m a California girl, and I want to come back.” It sounds like a lot of
things had changed within you as well. And I thought it was really interesting the way that you
noticed how the women didn’t feel as comfortable–comfortable to speak. But what kind of
changes did you see when you came back to the area, and—not even so much what did you see,
but how did it feel for you? Obviously, you were thrilled to be back. But what–what did you kind
of notice then and how did that shape the way that you carried on with your life?
Estrada: Well, I think that I noticed at that time, probably into my maybe second or third year
here, that the parents, the mothers were becoming more involved in what was going on. And they
were more interested in how to help their children at the time. And that was a–a plus. I had a lot
of connections to people that I could call on in the city also that helped out. I mean, yes, we had–
I had friends that would bring their sheep in to show what happened to the sheep when they
sheared it. And one of the boys that graduated from high school with me ended up to be the fire
captain and I would call them and they would come out and do demonstrations during the–that.
So, it just–and parents just really wanted to be a part of what was going on. And I think the
moms became more involved because dads had to be working.
Karasik: Right. And so was that part of the curriculum or was it–were you more free then to say
“Hey, I think it would be a good idea for these children to see these kinds of living situations.”
Estrada: It was integrated into the curriculum. Yes. I’m going to say it that way. Because I could
make a lesson—and I’m not bragging—but I could make a lesson out of, you know, a Hershey’s
candy bar and teaching fractions. But it was something that you just made the children feel like
they were part of your school community then. Other than that, they didn’t, you know—you go
to school, you sit at a desk, you see, you pay attention to what the te—You’re here to learn is
what they were taught. And I have to admit that was one of the things that the parents really
instilled in them. But we would integrate a lot of the—
Karasik: Life skills.
Estrada: —skills. Life skills. And we—
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Karasik: Yes.
Estrada: We made ice cream, so they’d learn how to measure. And we would—we celebrated all
the cultures. You couldn’t celebrate Christmas as Christmas. This was an interesting one. So I
incorporated all the different countries that I could think of and incorporated it into finding out
about different cultures and their traditions at that time. So that was how I helped.
Karasik: And there wasn’t a problem with that?
Estrada: Not as long as I did that. I was—
Karasik: That you knew of.
Estrada: There were—I was observed just like every other teacher had to be observed. I was
observed a lot, and everything—I never had any problems with—and we had to turn in lesson
plans on it. You know, it was just like “you want me to tell you exactly what I’m going to be
doing in every single minute?” “Yes, we do.” “Okay. So, I’ll write down general ones and you
can come in and look any time you want.” (laughs)
Karasik: Right. Well, it sounds like, uh, it was definitely an–a–a–a plus or an advantage for you
to have been from the area, having gone to another area to kind of gain that knowledge including
your school. But that experience. And so would you say that it was definitely a benefit for you to
feel like more imbedded in the community and you had all those—
Estrada: Oh, yes.
Karasik: —connections and that made your life a lot more.
Estrada: And because I taught for thirty-two years, I actually ended up teaching children of
classmates that I had in school. Because a lot a—at that time they weren’t moving out of California.
I mean, they weren’t moving out of San Marcos (laughs) as far as that goes. A lot of people stayed.
Karasik: And people weren’t moving in as much, as well, as they are now.
Estrada: We did–yeah. The–in my later years in teaching, then we had the–the children from
Vietnam, the chil—you know, that–the immigrants from there. So—
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Estrada: During that Vietnam time.
Karasik: And I would assume that you integrate that—integrated them into the class. Or how did
you handle some of that?
Estrada: (laughs) You’re going to laugh, but I would speak Spanish to them. And I forget–I forget
that wasn’t their second lan–their first language. And I would—but I—uh, there’s just one little–
one little Vietnamese girl that sticks out in my mind so vividly is because she did not speak English
when she started. So, we ran the—well, we were already using an ESL program because of going
in to—well, having mostly Spanish children in the classroom at the time. And then, um, she made
such a tremendous advance. By the time she graduated from high school, she was Valedictorian.
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Karasik: Oh, isn’t that great!
Estrada: Yeah. So, in her–in her twelve years, you know, she was, um–she just moved right up the
ladder. But it didn’t hurt her at all that we were speaking to her in Spanish. She picked up some!
(laughs)
Karasik: At a young age, yes.
Estrada: Uh-huh.
Karasik: It’s a lot easier. Well, I’d kind of like to move on to—I mean there’s—we could talk
about how your work has changed since then. But I do happen to know that you’re a–a basket
weaver. I don’t know if it’s a—if there’s certain levels or if you’re a professional.
Estrada: I’m a beginner!
Karasik: Oh, you are? But you’re very involved with the community and so maybe you could tell
us, then. You were probably noticing changes, because certainly after the war and then after the
Vietnam War, you know, society was changing considerably.
Estrada: Oh, yes!
Karasik: But when did you—like with the basket weaving and some of that, has that just been later
in your retirement years or was it in—and you were raising children?
Estrada: I have two sons, yes. I have two sons that are—I don’t even know—they’re 43 and 40, I
think, right now. Forty—no, they’re 41 and 44. One’s going to be 44 next week. And I have to say
that I didn’t really become involved in–as much with the tribe until after I retired. So, it’s been in
the last thirteen plus years, only because I didn’t feel like I had enough time. I–I know you were a
teacher also. But I–And I know that that just took up so much of my time, and my husband used
to tell me, “Aren’t you done—Aren’t you off your job clock yet?” Or something like that would
always be the remark. Now, he passed away three years ago, and I think that’s when I’ve really
become more involved in the basket weaving, only because I felt like I needed to have something
more that occupied me than sitting and thinking about what was going on. But, my cousin Diania
Caudell says, “Come with me. You’re not working today. Come with me. I’m going to do a
presentation at a school,” or “Come and help me.” That’s how it started. And, when we teach in
the schools, we do a different style of basket only because it’s a little bit easier and we don’t use
traditional plants at that time, because you don’t know if they’ve had any insecticide in them. You
don’t know if they—you know, how safe or they’re going to have a reaction. And that’s the last
thing you want if you go into a cla–into a group of 50 kids and have to do a–a–a basket and have
somebody breaking out with a rash all over them. But so we went to cane products and we do a
basic weave, and we make the starts for them. So, that’s what I’ve been doing now. Because we’re
doing it in another couple of weeks. We have a couple of groups going on. And then, they just
finish the basket. And that has been going with kids from, oh, Montessori aged schools—I mean,
Montessori–for preschools all the way through to like eighth grade, and then some—Well, we’ve
done it with the Cal State San Marcos and San Diego State also, um, college kids. Because they
were in their Native American classes and their Native Studies classes, and we did baskets with
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them. And they would come and visit what we call Indian Rock in Vista. And it’s a puberty rock
for girls, puberty stage. And so, um, they would come up and the–the schools have been–wa–Cal
State San Marcos was involved in putting native plants there. And so, we worked very closely with
them. I have a cousin now who was a professor at San Diego State, so we’ve become involved
with some of her classes too. We also have—we do demonstrations that we call demonstrations
where we use the native plants and do the native weave which is a little bit different and a little bit
more complex because you have to use the awl in order to get the thread through. And so, we use
the–the juncus and the–and the deer grass, and we’re going to be doing that tomorrow! At a school
in San Luis Rey.
Karasik: Oh, there’s so much there. One thing—when you said “cane,” I–I’m–I’m thinking sugar
cane.
Estrada: Oh, no. It’s—
Karasik: Wha—
Estrada: —it’s the in–inside part of bamboo.
Karasik: Of bamboo! Okay.
Estrada: Yeah. They take it out and they compress it. And so, then it—and it–it comes—
Karasik: Now, who’s they. Do you get it—?
Estrada: It’s from—we get it from a company in–in–in Huntington Beach.
Karasik: So, it is processed.
Estrada: It’s processed.
Karasik: And they grow those there like they have maybe a ware–a greenhouse of—
Estrada: He gets it into a warehouse. We get it from a guy in a warehouse up there.
Karasik: Uh-huh.
Estrada: Only because, um, it’s just safer—
Karasik: It’s trusted.
Estrada: —to use with it—
Karasik: —a trusted source, yeah.
Estrada: I should have brought it inside because I—
Karasik: I—yeah.
Estrada: I had some outside because I had to bring some for Diania! (laughs)
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Karasik: Oh yeah? And so, the other thing that I think is really interesting when you said “Puberty
Rock.” So is this something that was passed down for generations, and do you think that our an—
your ancestors, I mean the—
Estrada: I’m sure that there were ancestors that went there and you—there’s markings. It’s on
Indian Rock Road in Vista, off of Indian Rock. But it has markings and signs, handprints. But then
of course, in the modern day, it’s been vandalized and so we’ve worked a lot with different
companies and different schools and different technicians in order to find out how to remove a lot
of that, because you can’t just go up there and paint over it like they do on the curbs and the houses
and the sides of the walls, now. So, it has–(chuckles) it has poison oak around it, on purpose—
(laughs)
Karasik: Oh!
Estrada: —now, so that you can’t go near it. But it was–the—Moro Hill near Camp Pendleton is
part of our creation story. And it was from there a short distance to this Indian Rock and that’s
where girls would go and do their handprints, or do a s–sign that, you know, a—
Karasik: Like a coming-of-age ceremony.
Estrada: It’s much different than the boys. The boys go through a much rougher one. I mean, ants,
and I don’t know what else. But the girls did, but—
Karasik: Did you participate?
Estrada: I did not participate in that. And I was trying to get that information out of my mom. She
reset—she told me that she remembered doing something, but then that’s it, you know. I never
really—before she passed away—never really found out what the “it” was or the “something” was.
Karasik: Right.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: And that’s―is there some sadness around that, or just wishing that you―
Estrada: Oh, I―definitely now, because I’m learning so much more about the Native culture and
the tribe itself, the intertwining of the families, the knowing that I have cousins beyond cousins,
this kind of thing, and trying to have somebody right here (taps her right shoulder) on my little
shoulder sometimes that would say, “Oh, that’s the daughter of your aunt blah-blah-blah. Or
your cousin blah,” and just trying to make sure that I knew. And she guided along that, because
she was the–considered the elder in the tribe, when she passed away. And that’s been four years,
a little bit over four years now. But, attended everything, and so that’s when I would learn more.
I’d say, “I’ve seen them before, mom, but I don’t really remember.” She says, “Well, when we
were at your uncle’s house in the valley, that part of his family―” And I thought, okay. Those
were the kinds of things that―
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Karasik: When you say, “I’ve seen them,” you’re talking about some of the people that were in
your family.
Estrada: You would―either the family or people that would be associated with the family. I
mean, I was at a Dia de Los Muertos last weekend in Fallbrook, and I thought, “Gee, a lot of
these people (turning her head from side to side) I recognize.” And I would stop to think, and I’d
have to either go up and ask them, “Have I met you before?” (laughs) Or something like that. So
that I would be able to make a connection.
Karasik: Mmm.
Estrada: And some of them I actually had met before.
Karasik: Great. So, was there any, um, ritual that was done in the home, or anything that your
parents ever talked about (Estrada shakes her head to indicate no) that was kind of handed down
from the ancestors. Because I know there was certainly a time―like you said, sometimes it was
more advantageous to be Latin or―
Estrada: Mexican.
Karasik: ―Mexican. Did you feel like, oh I would–I would love to have known more of the
rituals or some of the ceremonies.
Estrada: I’m just learning a lot about that now. As a family, we did not practice a lot of that. But
then―I say we didn’t practice a lot of that. What I really feel like, maybe in a roundabout way,
we did, because we always had large family gatherings. Now, in our tribe, we’ve had a powwow
the second weekend of June every year until Covid hit. But it, um,―prior to that, it was―we
would be gathering at a–a park, at a water place. I mean we were up at some creek up in
Pamu―the Pauma area. Just places where―and it would be huge family gatherings, and, um,
because there were eleven in my mom’s family, and then their kids and down through that, so―
And then, besides the other brothers. One brother–one of my grandfather’s brother—had all
daughters. I think there’s eleven or twelve of those. And then the other brother had six or seven.
So that they―it–you know, so you just kind of (makes pulling apart gesture with her hands)―and
then when you get these families all together― (makes pushing together gesture with her fists)
My grand–my paren–my grandfather’s fa–family lived in Oceanside. And so, he was kind of the
in-between the San Luis Rey brother and the Cardiff brother. So, it made a―The people in my
mother’s family―I felt like she was a–a mediator or the in-between person to get to know this
brother’s kids with this brother’s kids (gestures pulling from the left and the right into the
center). And that’s kind of what I’m doing now.
Karasik: Interesting.
Estrada: Following in the footsteps, I guess you’d say.
Karasik: Of your mother. How–what a beautiful way to honor her.
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Estrada: Well, and on top of that, I have my husband’s family, who is from Pala and San Jacinto
area, and trying to get them to know the rest of this family. So, you know, it’s always “I’m going
to call Roberta, because she’ll know.” Well, if Roberta doesn’t know, she tries to figure it out
and find out who it is, you know, make a connection.
Karasik: Right. So, I wanted to―I guess I would use the word “pride.” Was―because the–the
times have changed now, di–but, when you were younger or compared to now, was the certain
pride about being Native American? And then there were times where that was not talked about,
like where you said it was easier to say I’m Mexican.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: And, um, whe–where is that now, and h–how has that changed over the years? And do
you feel much more–more pride and feel that it’s more important? Or―
Estrada: I think it’s very important, because there are seven Luseño tribes in the area. And San
Luis Rey is the only unrecognized tribe. We are still trying to get the recognition process done.
But I think we’re working at it together. We may not be federally recognized, but we are
recognized by the people and the cities in the area. Last night, we went for a proclamation from
the city of Oceanside. And, um, I think there were ten or twelve of us there last night, at the City
Council meeting. And, um, it just made me feel like, “Oh! This is getting good.” Because now
they’re becoming more involved. For a while, it’s always the same group. And that group is
getting up there in years. And we need to pass it along. And we’re trying to―right now, I’m
working with a younger cousin who has, um, aspirations to involve the younger people, the
thirty-and-unders people, to get in–more involved. And so, we’re working together and getting
those―I couldn’t believe the amount of people that were there that were in that age group. And
then at the―We went–After that, we went to the Inyan–Indian monument that’s in San Luis Rey
Mission cemetery, in the old cemetery part. There’s an Indian monument, and we had quite a
large group there, that we put candles out and all the great-grandmothers and uncles and aunts,
and so forth, around there. It was very, very touching moment, to feel–to feel that so many of
these people―And then, at the end they were even saying, “Well, we’d like to know more about
this. Or maybe learn about that.” Because there was a period of time when―I know my boys―
Karasik: I wanted to ask you about your boys, if they’ve claimed their culture.
Estrada: My boys did not know a lot about the Native Americans to start with.
Karasik: Those two pages in the history book weren’t enough in eighth grade? (chuckles)
Estrada: No. And it–they were not. And now they’re, um―they don’t live in the area. They both
live in Arizona now. But they’re―because of their work, and they will ask questions, though.
And they will want, say, “Oh, are we going to do that this year? Oh, I think I’ll come for
powwow. Are we going to have it?” “Mom, I don’t think I’m quite sure on what to do with this.”
But they both learned how to make their frybread. (chuckles)
Karasik: Yes.
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Estrada: That’s something that was stuck with them, and that was there. So―
Karasik: Yeah. I think it’s really interesting how throughout the decades, if you will, it’s been
sort of not in fashion―
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: ―to look at your culture. Now, it’s very much in fashion.
Estrada: Land acknowledgment, right now, is one of the big things. And so, you’ll hear that
when you go to different, um, occasions, or different presentations. They’ll say, “We want to
acknowledge that we are on Native land.” We want to―
Karasik: Absolutely.
Estrada: ―you know. That’s more going on now, and you see that in their speeches. Whereas you
didn’t see that before.
Karasik: Absolutely. I–I find that in–in, just when I’m on a Zoom―in fact, my name―and then I
put what city I’m in, and then I put what stolen lands that I occupy. Be―
Estrada: Mm-hmm. Right now, we’re on (gestures quotes with her fingers)
Karasik: Kume―
Estrada: ―Native land. We’re on Ku―we’re―well, yes. We’re not on Kumeyaay land. We’re
on―we’re in between, now. It’s between the Luseño and the Kumeyaay area.
Karasik: And so, Luseño is sort of the umbrella of the six or seven tribes―
Estrada: Seven tribes.
Karasik: ―that you were talking about. And the recognition―are there certain aspects of it from
the government or from the tr–tribe itself?
Estrada: Government.
Karasik: From the government.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: So, the tribes, for sure, recognize you, but it’s some kind of a governmental
requirements to―
Estrada: Yeah. There’s a lot of r–there’s a lot of red tape, you may as well say―
Karasik: Right, right.
Estrada: ―that you have to jump through.
Karasik: And–and is―
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Estrada: You have to have proof of being a government from a–for a period of time. And so,
that’s one of the things.
Karasik: Of being like a sovereign―
Estrada: Mm-hmm.
Karasik: ―nation or–or―
Estrada: Yeah.
Karasik: You know.
Estrada: Where you have a―where you do things then. So, you’ll find if they’re doing any
activities, you’ll find people that are recording that, so they’ll have a recording of what’s going
on now. And―
Karasik: Documentation―
Estrada: ―documentation of all of that.
Karasik: ―every―Right.
Estrada: Going back to when we were talking about the basket weaving, we do a lot of things
with the–the schools now. And so then, before we start with that, we tell them where we’re from.
Yes, we know that this part―now, like when we went to do it at San Diego State. Yes, we are on
Kumeyaay land right now. We were invited to do this. And what we use for the schools is a
Cherokee style. And so, we were given permission from Tekua, so that it was–would be
available. Giving―I don’t want to say permission―I want to say you recognize where
everything came from. You don’t say it’s yours if it’s not yours.
Karasik: So, there’s a respect for the origin of it, and then there’s also a–a, like you said, a
recognition or a–um, yeah. I–I’m–I’m thinking of so many things. I–You said “tekua.” Is that
some organization, or what―
Estrada: It’s the Cherokee, Cherokee band.
Karasik: Oh! Okay. And who’s that umbrella?
Estrada: Cherokee.
Karasik: Ok. And then Tekua is underneath―
Estrada: Yeah. They’re part of the Cherokee.
Karasik: ―that. And then are they a little bit more going east, like to Arizona? Or are they―
Estrada: No. They’re, um, more, um, Oklahoma area.
Karasik: Oh, right. Okay.
Estrada: In that area.
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Karasik: Okay. Um, oh, there’s just so much there. And you’ve really been wonderful to kind of
branch into some of the questions that I wanted to ask you. Um, I think I–I want you to tell me
how you feel about doing this oral history, and how important it is. What–what are–what kinds
of things do you want our descendants to know, and how important will that be for–for them, and
that’s why we’re doing this oral history. And then, maybe you can add in there some of your
accomplishments, if there’s any regrets that you might have had, um, and kind of how your life
path has changed, I think more since your retirement, and how that feels for you to, um, be more
involved and have that pride and want to really pass that on and tell this story.
Estrada: Well, it’s interesting, because I do have two twenty-year-old grandchildren, a sixteenyear-old, and a six-year-old, and trying to make them understand their heritage at the same time.
And so, yes, I’m doing that with them, but I hope that other people are letting their children
know about their culture and heritage, no matter what culture and heritage it is. And, um, having
the pride, not hiding yourself. And it’s important to know that one of the things that—I mean,
San Marcos―I have to say. I don’t live in San Marcos. I lived in San Marcos at one time. I did
after I was married. Also, I lived there for a short time before we moved into Escondido and then
Vista. So, we’ve lived in North County. But it’s always had a place in my heart. And the people
are just so interested in what everybody else is doing. I grew up in this area being friends with
people from the egg ranch—Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch—and just having, you know, and like all
those race horses over here on the other side, and then the farmers on the other side. So, it was a
big diverse. And I need to have my boys tell their kids that there’s more to it than Minecraft on
the computer.
Karasik: Uh, absolutely.
Estrada: And so―
Karasik: So, when you said egg ranch, it was like, “oh, there’s probably a whole story there.” So,
some of those, the egg ranch and the others that you will mention, they’re still here. So that’s―
Estrada: (shakes her head).
Karasik: Oh, they’re not. Oh.
Estrada: C.S.U. S.M. was–is built―
Karasik: On―
Estrada: ―on the egg ranch, on Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch.
Karasik: Oh! On all those lands. How was that?
Estrada: It was hard at first.
Karasik: Were there burial grounds there as well―
Estrada: Um, probably.
Karasik: ―that we know of?
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Estrada: No. Probably, probably. In the extension that they were building at San Marcos High
School, they’re–in where they’re working, where the construction is now, there will be a lot of
orange fencing. In the Creek Project in San Marcos, too, there’s a lot of orange fencing, because
that’s all—the Natives lived along the water source, and I know that my mom’s aunts worked
and–and my mom—I don’t think my mom’s mother did but—my mom’s aunts were in a lot of
those camps, cooking for the people that were, you know, working on, or living in these areas, or
working in these areas.
Karasik: Yeah. I’m curious there, because I–I know back, you know, pre-modern technology,
they often moved because first they respected the land. And there were different growing periods
and animals. There are all kinds of reasons that they would move. And so, that would be then
sometimes how the women might go there and then support that, or―
Estrada: Ours went–Our tribe went from the ocean to the mountains, because they would go up
in the mountains and collect the acorns and so forth. But my grandfather’s father was a sheep
herder.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Estrada: And he would–would go up in that area. His―My grandmother’s brothers were miners
and helped at the mining area in the Pala area. So, you know there was this way, and this way.
San Luis Rey Mission is built on our Indian village site. The, um―they were given the
opportunity to move up to the mountains or just spread (indicates spreading out in groups with
her hands) and diverse themselves, and that’s what they did. A lot of them went into the farming
and into construction and things like that.
Karasik: So, you heard about your mother’s mother and father, or your–even like your husband’s
parents and grandparents. Those were just stories that were kind of passed down. Do you feel―
Estrada: It’s all oral story.
Karasik: Yeah. And–and so that oral history, you―
Estrada: Is important.
Karasik: ―Absolutely.
Estrada: It’s not all recorded, except (points to her head) up here now.
Karasik: And that’s a lot why we’re doing it here.
Estrada: That’s a big reason why I’m very into what’s going on right now. Yes.
Karasik: And I think you’ve done a fantastic job.
Estrada: Oh.
Karasik: We could go on and on. I also think it’s ironic that, um, Cal State San Marcos, who’s
doing this project, is on that land.
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Estrada: Mm-hmm.
Karasik: So, in a way, it is–they are giving back.
Estrada: They’re sharing.
Karasik: Which is–is really good.
Estrada: The best part of this whole thing is this “site” (gestures air quotes) that we’re in today
was actually on the elementary school that I went to. It was our cafeteria.
Karasik: This specific building?
Estrada: This specific building. It was our cafeteria, and we had our (gestures quotes with her
hands) “dances” inside this building. We did our choir from the stage.
Karasik: This stage?
Estrada: This stage. The only thing that’s different about it now is there used to be a kitchen
connected. Because when we were in maybe fourth grade up, you could be a–you could be a
cafeteria helper.
Karasik: Sure.
Estrada: And, um, you’d help serve at the lunch line, and I did that. But it―
Karasik: It’s interesting. When you said “dancing.” So, it was okay to dance. And that dancing,
was it more like “American culture?” Or was―
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: It was.
Estrada: Yes. It had nothing to do–do (shaking her head) with the Natives at all.
Karasik: Okay.
Estrada: Mm-hmm.
Karasik: Yeah. Um, I could talk about that, but this is your story.
Estrada: (laughs)
Karasik: Um, so, I’m thinking there’s not very many regrets. It sounds like you’ve really had a
wonderful life.
Estrada: I think after my retirement, um, I became more involved and then it made me feel even
more proud of my heritage.
Karasik: Yes.
Estrada: And then the–on top of that, um, I made a lot of connections to different family
members and my husband’s family, and trying to get that all focused on, so that I could
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intermingle that so I could pass that on to my boys who could pass it on to their children. And I
really feel that by doing things like this and coming out and talking about it―I know that when I
first started, Diania would say, “Let’s go.” Okay. I’d go and I’d stand in the background. Well, I
listened a lot. Well, that’s how I learned my Spanish in the first place, because my grandfather
sold to―he sold the rabbits and the guy that came to pick up the rabbits couldn’t speak English
and he would speak Spanish to him. And here would be Roberta by his side. So, I mean, he was
one of the influential people, I’m learning, that second language that was so important in this
area. But, um, now I’m interested in trying to pick up the Luseño language, the Chamteela. I
can’t even say it. Because we’re called the Payómkawichum, which are the people of the west.
And so, it goes all along the western coast and in–into the mountain.
Karasik: And is there anyone still around―
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: ―to teach some of that?
Estrada: Yes. I have to take my time and go to those classes.
Karasik: So―
Estrada: Right now, they’re just starting some Zoom classes for―they called it for the young
people. But there’s a lot of people that want to learn it beyond that. So, we’ll see what happens.
But they’re doing them on Zoom right now.
Karasik: You―
Estrada: Because you need to hear it.
Karasik: I’m sure, yes.
Estrada: You need to hear it. You can’t do it from the book―
Karasik: You have to―
Estrada: ―and read it. And, um, I’ve got several little kid’s books that I’ve gotten from my
grandkids that have the English on one side and the Luseño language on the other side and yes,
you can do it that way, but you still don’t hear the correct pronunciation.
Karasik: Yeah. That’s really important. The–it’s–I’m feeling like in some ways it’s full circle.
You know. It’s coming back full circle, and now a–a–the pride is really more known amongst―
Estrada: I think it’s more evident now and you can feel it.
Karasik: And even outside of your culture.
Estrada: Yeah, you can see it coming back. Because looking out at the people that were sitting at
the City Hall last night, and them paying attention to what was being said about our culture,
about ourselves, by the captain at the time. Mel was talking and you just look out at the people
and you could see them really into what was being said about what was going on there, so―
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Karasik: That must feel wonderful.
Estrada: Yeah. And so, I mean, it makes you feel. I told them that. I told somebody else, after the
Dia de Los Muertos thing last night. I just go, “You know, I really feel very proud to be part of
this group.” And it ma–it makes you feel like―
Karasik: Right.
Estrada: ―you’re doing something good.
Karasik: Absolutely. I’m so happy for you.
Estrada: (chuckles)
Karasik: And so, I guess, um, in closing, obviously if there’s anything else that you’d really like
to say, but I feel like we’ve had a–a really wonderful conversation. And I hope you do as well.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: But if you―you know, there’s a lot of work done now too, around, beyond the veil.
Like people have passed and sometimes people want to get in touch with them, or wish that they
could have, you know, tell―
Estrada: Conversations.
Karasik: Right! And so, if you had that―if some of our–your descendants had the opportunity to
talk with you, which is a lot of what this will be for them―
Estrada: Oh, yes.
Karasik: ―what–what would you tell them that is most important, the things that they should
really pay attention to, and the things that don’t be so concerned with. Like, what’s the most
important thing, particularly involving your culture and how they want to live their lives that–
that honors your–your history, your heritage.
Estrada: I would say―well, I do this to my boys right now. I tell them, you know, “You need to
live your life like you feel. But you also need to remember and respect all the adults.” I mean, as
we were raising the two boys, Richard and I did not allow them to speak out of turn to–to them.
Not to say harsh things or anything like that. And I think that that’s fallen away right now. And
that’s really something important that needs to be brought back, is the respect for your ancestors.
Whether they be living or not. And I hope that this is one of the programs that shows the
importance of the lives of people that have been and what they’ve gone through. I mean,
nothing’s been real easy for me, but I have to say that with the support that you have, no matter
where it comes from, it’s important that they pick it up.
Karasik: And how important that support was in your life. Had you been, for example, stayed
back in Wisconsin―although they have some pretty strong tribal activities―
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Estrada: I have―my dad has got a brother-in-law that his whole family, all his nieces and
nephews, are really into it. But it’s not a―I guess it’s because it’s not immediately connected.
Maybe that’s what it is? I mean “in bloodline” means nothing. Or how much blood―”quantum”
does not mean anything. It means–what means something–what should mean something to them
is that they were related to someone who spoke up and tried to help others in the area. And that’s
what we’re doing as a tribe, non-federally recognized tribe. Yes, we have a California
recognition, and basically that’s because of water rights. But the Califor–the federally recognized
tribes, some of them, look down on you now. But who’s doing the work? Just keep plugging
along and making sure that you’re doing what you think is best for yourself and your family.
Karasik: That’s beautiful. Who’s doing the work.
Estrada: Yeah.
Karasik: Yes. Well, I think this is probably a good place to stop―
Estrada: Okay.
Karasik: ―all though we could go on. And we’ll see what happens with the archives, and what
else we might want to do. Like, it would be really wonderful to videotape a basket weaving class.
I don’t know if that’s possible. And I’m certainly wanting to attend and–and learn more, but―
Estrada: There will be some on November twelfth. That’s basket weaving.
Karasik: Is that the same day as the Luseño honoring that?
Estrada: (nods)
Karasik: Yes.
Estrada: Yes, it is.
Karasik: Oh, and we didn’t mention, which I thought was so wonderful, that this happens to be
Native American―
Estrada: Native American month.
Karasik: ―American Heritage month. So, we’re celebrating and honoring it.
Estrada: (chuckles)
Karasik: And we have one of the best elders here.
Estrada: Oh, thank you.
Karasik: Oh, that was one question I wanted to ask you. The word “crone,” does that come from
your culture?
Estrada: The what?
Karasik: Crone?
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Estrada: No.
Karasik: Okay. It’s an elder woman. And I’m not really sure where it comes from. I think it
might be Celtic or another matriarchal based culture.
Estrada: Uh-huh.
Karasik: But I think that the respect for the elders in your culture is–is very strong.
Estrada: It’s very strong.
Karasik: And that’s really so important. And that–I think what the children―which you have
shown in your family and with all your–all your relations.
Karasik: Omitaki.
Estrada: (laughs) A lot of them.
Karasik: Yeah. That’s wonderful. Well, thank you so very much.
Estrada: And thank you for having me.
Karasik: Yes, and again this is Roberta Estrada. And we are in San Marcos at the Heritage
Museum here and this is all part of the Cal State San Marcos Archive pro–Oral History program.
Estrada: Oral history.
Karasik: Yes. Thank you very much!
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GLOSSARY
Alvin Dunn School (pg.1)
Cardiff (pg.9)
Caudell, Diania (pg.6)
Chamteela (pg.16)
Creek Project (pg.14)
Dia de Los Muertos (pg.9)
Duenos (pg.2)
Foussat (pg.2)
Frybread (pg. 11)
Indian Rock Road (pg.8)
Kumeyaay (pg.11)
La Mirada Academy (pg.1)
Life Credential (pg.4)
Luseño (pg.10)
Marine Corps Hospital (pg.1)
Mel (pg.17)
Moro Hill (pg.8)
Normal School (pg.4)
Omitaki (pg.19)
Pala (pg.2)
Palomar (pg.4)
Pamu (pg.9)
Pauma (pg.9)
Payómkawichum (pg.16)
Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch (pg.13)
San Jacinto (pg.10)
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San Luis Rey Mission (pg.2)
San Marcos High School (pg.14)
Tekua (pg.12)
Tribal Council (pg.3)
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�
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Estrada, Roberta. Interview Transcript. November 3. 2022.
Description
An account of the resource
Roberta Estrada is a Luiseño woman from the San Luis Rey Mission Band of Mission Indians. She grew up in Vista, CA and was educated throughout the North County school districts. She attended college, earning both Spanish and General Education degrees. She taught ESL in the San Marcos Unified District for thirty-two years. After retirement, she became more involved in the Indigenous community and learned basketry. She accompanies her cousin, Diania Caudell, on school group presentations and teaches audiences about basket-weaving and native plants. Estrada is proud of her Luiseño heritage, and continues reconnecting with family members and getting involved in Indigenous community activities. Estrada also discusses in her interview, the process of tribal recognition with the United States government, teaching English to Vietnam refugees, and the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch.
This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos.
Creator
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Roberta Estrada
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Suzy Karasik
Melissa Martin
Date
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2022-11-03
Subject
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Basket making
Education, ESL
Endemic plants -- Southern California
Luiseño Indians
Refugees -- Vietnam
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San Marcos (Calif.)
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English
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Roberta Estrada
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text
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EstradaRoberta_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-03_transcript
Community history
Native American experience
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Oral History
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Interviewer
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Michael De Maria
Interviewee
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Sara Sheikh-Arvizu
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5.4 Sheikh-Arvizu, Sara. Interview March 30, 2023 SC027-30 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Civil rights LGBTQ+ activism San Marcos (Calif.) LGBTQ life Chapman University Orange County Human Relations Commission (Orange County, Calif.) Sara Sheikh-Arvizu Michael De Maria .mp4 Sheikh-ArvizuSara_DeMariaMichael_2023-03-30.mp4 1:|10(12)|21(11)|30(12)|42(13)|49(13)|58(6)|68(14)|81(5)|91(17)|102(5)|110(12)|121(10)|132(3)|143(8)|155(16)|170(8)|179(10)|189(6)|205(12)|219(10)|230(6)|237(4)|245(7)|255(3)|266(16)|280(10)|287(17)|305(3)|315(16)|326(12)|334(17)|347(9)|357(10)|367(13)|378(13)|390(12)|403(2)|410(14)|420(5)|433(9)|444(11)|453(6)|463(14)|471(19)|482(3)|494(3)|503(19)|514(13)|524(7)|533(3)|542(3)|549(17)|557(16)|567(4)|578(10)|587(3)|598(5)|608(5)|618(16)|624(16)|631(7)|643(2)|662(5)|668(10)|676(11)|683(3)|691(18)|703(14)|712(5)|720(11)|728(19)|739(13)|749(5)|759(18)|768(11)|779(14)|787(4)|798(8)|808(12)|819(14)|829(4)|843(13)|852(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/8c3d53da6a7254a1d38286db42d7e1dc.mp4 Other video English 1 Intro Oral history interview of Sara Sheikh-Arvizu by Michael De Maria, March 30th, 2023. 0 48 Early experiences with Social Justice Sheikh-Arvizu describes her experiences with social justice in college and the experiences that led her to want to pursue it as a career, including diversity training that greatly influenced her. 0 220 Activities in Social Justice Sheikh-Arvizu describes talking to people with diverse identities while attending academic conferences, as well as the impacts that had on her work in social justice, including her role as Associate Director of the Cross-Cultural Center. 0 407 Projects at Chapman University Sheikh-Arvizu talks about the major projects that she led at Chapman University at the Office of Social Justice, where she held her first job after completing her undergraduate and graduate studies. 0 897 Joining the CSUSM Cross-Cultural Center Sheikh-Arvizu describes getting the opportunity to get to work for the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM as Associate Director ; she sought to execute a vision in a new space, as Chapman did not have a Cross-Cultural Center. 0 1116 Social Climate at CSUSM in 2008 Sheikh-Arvizu describes the climate of CSUSM at the time of her joining the Cross-Cultural Center as Associate Director in 2008. She describes the work around the Cross-Cultural Center as not being seen by the rest of campus and not being recognized as much as it should have been, with many students feeling like they were not being seen or heard as well. 0 1502 Proudest Accomplishments for the Cross-Cultural Center Sheikh-Arvizu discusses the major projects she led for the Cross-Cultural Center, including Cafe La Paz and the Social Justice Summit. 0 2170 Empowering Student Staff Sheikh-Arvizu recalls how she empowered her student staff at the CCC. Reflecting on herself a "yes person" who enjoys watching ideas become reality, Sheikh-Arvizu considers listening to her staff as a form of empowerment. She specifically recounts one experience with a former student staff member in their interview process. 0 2529 Sheikh-Arvizu's Favorite Memories of the Cross-Cultural Center After discussing ways in which she empowered her student staff, Sheikh-Arvizu shares two of her favorite memories revolving around the Cross-Cultural Center. One includes an individual memory regarding one of her first experiences running the Social Justice Summit, while another involves an interview of a potential CCC staffer. Sheikh-Arvizu recalls how the community of the CCC came together to support and prepare a student for their interview. 0 2890 How the CCC Impacted Sheikh-Arvizu's Professional Journey Sheikh-Arvizu remembers initial feelings of doubt regarding leadership of the CCC. However, she states she did not subscribe to the belief that a leader had to direct her staff. Rather, Sheikh-Arvizu remembers embracing and encouraging her staff to take charge and lead in their own way. Sheikh-Arvizu reflects on this setting the foundation for her professional career. Now working with Orange County Human Relations, Sheikh-Arvizu shares how the CCC has impacted her current work with diversity and inclusivity. 0 3491 Students, Community, Conversations, and the CCC Considering future students who interact with the Cross-Cultural Center, Sheikh-Arvizu shares that she would stress the importance of community. Sheikh-Arvizu considers the CCC as a community-friendly space that also engages with difficult conversations including racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, and other forms of oppression. In addition to encouraging friendly connections, Sheikh-Arvizu stresses the duality of the CCC as it enables connection and safe space for difficult conversations. 0 3735 Underrepresented Communities Sheikh-Arvizu considers underrepresented communities on campus, as well as those that she works with in her current position with Orange County Human Relations. She considers both the importance and challenges of statistical data and how this impacts minority students. Sheikh-Arvizu discusses the importance of having difficult conversations so as not to erase the history and lived experiences of minority groups impacted by various forms of oppression. 0 4057 Future Direction of the Cross-Cultural Center Sheikh-Arvizu once again considers the communal aspects to be a major point of the CCC, and as something she knows will continue in the future. In addition to creating that communal environment within the center, Sheikh-Arvizu also believes the Cross-Cultural Center will continue to work closely with other student centers and organizations to better improve that communal atmosphere. 0 4318 Advice for Those Seeking a Career in Social Justice Michael De Maria inquires about any potential advice for those seeking a career in social justice. Sheikh-Arvizu considers a "home base community" crucial to her work in social justice. She also recognizes the importance of being surrounded by diversity, as well as the ability to ask and address difficult or uncomfortable questions regarding social justice and diversity. Sheikh-Arvizu also discusses how her role as a parent has shifted her approach to diversity and social justice work. 0 Sara Sheikh-Arvizu was Assistant Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at California State University San Marcos from 2008 to 2011. In this interview, Sara discusses her roles at CSUSM and the various programs she initiated or facilitated. Sara also briefly discusses her current work with Orange County Human Relations. Michael De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I'm a graduate research assistant here at CSU (California State University) San Marcos with Kellogg Library’s Special Collections Department. I'm joined here today by Sarah Sheikh-Arvizu. The date is March 30th, 2023, and the time is ten thirty-six A.M. So today we're going to be focusing on Sarah's involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, especially as it pertains to her stint as the Associate Director of Programs at the Cross-Cultural Center. So Sarah, thank you for joining me today. To start things off, I actually wanted to take things back a little bit. My first question is more about your background in the field, and I wanted to know when you decided to make social justice a focal point of your career. Sara Sheikh-Arvizu: I, it's a great question. Thank you. I'm happy to be here and be part of this project. For me, you know, to get-- jump right into your question, I wanted social justice to be the center of my work and my work life, since I was in college. I, there's a training that stood out to me. When I first became a student staff member on my own undergraduate campus. I was gonna be starting working in housing, and there was a diversity training which feels so regular and normal now, that's just part of what training involves. And it was at the time for me as well. But there was something that happened in that training that I felt like, “You know, I wanna be in this work and I want to do better.” I, it was a training that was focused on race, and what happened was they asked us to split up into two different spaces. A space for white folks and a space for folks of color, and I being mixed race, and there was about five or six other folks also, all sort of like walked up to the people who were facilitating, who were not directly our staff members, as another organization who came in to do this training, and asked “Where do we go? We don't fit into either one of these spaces.” And for us, we were looking for an answer and also validation. We were also offering to create our own space and asking if we could do that. And we weren't given permission to do that. We were told to choose one of those spaces, and that was a choice that I feel like I shouldn't have been asked to make. None of the five or six of us should have been asked to make. And honestly, I didn't want other folks to have to choose something like that in their experience on a college campus. So that really was like the moment that I wanted to be part of social justice work. It was honestly that moment in college. De Maria: Very, very interesting. And from then on, what sorts of organizations or activities did you involve yourself in, to kind of further that goal? And then also where did you attend undergraduate studies? Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah so, my undergrad was at UC (University of California) Irvine , and other things I got involved with, some of it was just about learning for me. So, some of the things I got involved with were taking classes that were in gender studies, queer studies, and just learning more about what else was going on, right? Learning more about how we socially work together? You know, what does oppression look like? And kind of exploring and unpacking that. I think for me, other spaces that I was trying to get connected to and involved with was the LGBTQ Center on our campus. And so, I did a(n) internship there , connected to research. That was what my program, it was a requirement of my program as well, but I chose that as the place to do my site study. And then, and then just creating those spaces. So I, beyond my undergrad, the other places that I sought to be connected, education was always really important to me. And so, whenever I attended conferences as a professional, that was, I really focused all of the sessions I went to on learning more about folks that were different from me, had different identities than myself. So, I was drawn to topics about transgender students. I was drawn to topics about equity and how to measure and set out plans . So, like my (laughs) and my interest was wide. I wanted to, I tried to attend a lot of panels where folks were kind of sharing their stories or insight or, advice as it related to their identity. It was something that I felt like I needed to hear, but I also felt very validated in hearing those stories and really taking those on as something like, they were not my stories to take on, but they were the knowledge from what people were sharing I could take on and I could apply in other ways. De Maria: That's very, very profound, and look, talking about your background, I also know that you have your masters. Of course, you are quite educated , and you've emphasized a lot about the learning aspect of social justice and being a participant that way. So, I wanna shift gears here and start talking about your professional career, post education. I know that you were also a program coordinator at Chapman (University) prior to joining the Cross-Cultural Center. So, I just wanted to walk you through, or walk me through some of the major projects that you led there. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. (clears throat) Excuse me. Yeah, so I was at Chapman. That was my first professional job outside of undergrad and graduate school. And so, some of the projects that I focused on, so I was in the Office of Social Justice. So honestly, as a young professional it felt amazing to have a job where social justice was actually in the title of my position. I felt like it's what I was seeking . And what I found out when I was there was that they needed a lot of foundational work. So, something to really be a launching point for this Office of Social Justice. And so, what I did there was really try to figure out, “Okay, well what are the cornerstones of this office of the work?” And working directly with students to do that. For me, something that was a program that was well developed but was handed kind of, I don't know whether to say back to me or quote unquote my position or handed to me to lead, was a Safe, the Safe Space Training Program. So that was a program that I was kind of gifted. And for me, I wanted to expand it, expand the reach of that program, expand the depth of what that program could offer, with regard to training and education and visibility. And so, that was a focus area of what I tried to develop. So, to increase the committee that was really working on the safe space trainings and initiatives. We added a train the trainer component so that there were more trainers on campus and it wasn't, you know, focused on just three people doing every training for the whole campus. You know, rotating through, over and over. And then we increased the number and the types of trainings that we offered. So it wasn't, it wasn't solely like a-- essentially at the time LGBT101 ; really going over definitions and some case study work and unpacking bias and things like that. (We) started to do more trainings in addition to that, which was, which was amazing. And then other foundational pieces of the Office of Social Justice. Some of the work that students really wanted to do was have these landmark programs where they could keep doing it and build from every year, which I thought was a great foundation-setter. So, some of the programs that I remember starting there and then doing a few times in my time there (at Chapman), was we called it Reel Justice, R-E-E-L. So focused on films, right? So, exploring social justice through films. It was a film week, and we were showing films that were not, that were kind of along the lines of a theme. And something that was really unique that I loved that our students put into this was connecting with-- at Chapman there's an excellent film program where students are developing and creating and directing their own, producing their own films. So that was part of the Reel Justice program. Another one was a Peace and Earth Fair. So, it was also working with students who were in their student government, on a team called the Awareness Team. And so, they were also charged with doing programs that were more along the lines of awareness, raising awareness about justice was really the focus there. And so, they wanted to do a Peace and Earth Fair. And so, what was really cool about the way that they wanted to approach it, and they were kind of willing to explore was how do you align the purpose of the program with the process of the program? So, you know, if it's a Peace and Earth Fair and we're really focusing on earth justice, what kind of, what are we using? What are we, we're having tables out there, are we covering those tables with tablecloths? Are we covering them with something that we're gonna, you know, throw away? No! (laughs) So, really like going and going the extra mile to do research of, you know, how can we align this? How can we really show what this program is about in the way that we do it just as much as what's done. And then something that, two things that I was kind of proud of as well, that I think set the tone was starting to explore doing dialogue circles. So, something that I was hearing from more than more than a handful, particularly of white students, was saying, “I don't feel like I can be part of this conversation, this conversation about diversity, this conversation about equity, this conversation about social justice.” And my take is everyone can be part of this conversation and should be. And so, I created a dialogue circle that was really focused on opening space where folks could join, and be part of a conversation together. And it's really simple (laughs) in its, I don't know, in its purpose, was to just have this space. So, we put it out there, we collected people's schedules cause I didn't want schedules to be the thing that, you know, made people not able to participate in this conversation. We had a nine, it was like a nine or ten p.m. (laughs) dialogue circle that folks committed to, 'cause that's, those were the times that they were available and they were putting out there of like, “I wanna do it at this time.” And whew, as a non-student I was like, not exactly ready for a nine p.m. (laughs) dialogue. But that's when folks were available and wanted to participate. So, we did that and it really was just coming together in a circle, setting an intention and having this conversation where everybody was, could come and participate, and feel that sense of belonging to this conversation, belonging to this ideal of social justice. So those are some things that we tried to put together. I'm sure that there are more, but those are the ones that really stand out to me. De Maria: Very cool. And all of that sounds very foundational, so that's really awesome to hear. From that, I want to transition to discussing your involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. De Maria: So, I just wanted to ask, what led you to the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM, and why did you choose to depart from Chapman? Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah, so the opportunity came about like any opportunity does. I wasn't necessarily looking for anything, but you know, saw something come through just on a, on a listserv (computerized list utilized by organizations to email advertisements). And so, I looked at it. Something that Chapman did not have at the time was a Cross-Cultural Center. There was no physical space. Even the Office of Social Justice that I was the program coordinator for, it was an office. It was my office with a door and a window, and that was it and my desk. So, there was no concept of that physical space. Community looked very different, and ways to commune, to come together. It really was, you had to plan an event for people to come together. And so, I was really seeking to be in a space like that. Like the Cross-Cultural Center was named C3 at the time, (laughs) at Cal State San Marcos. And that's what I was seeking. There were, it was just a different kind of opportunity, a different way to build foundation and different kinds of opportunities as well. When I came in for my interview, you know I really was, I was taken aback in a very good way. Something that Dilcie (Perez), who was overseeing the (Cross-Cultural) Center and the Director of Student Life and Leadership at the time, something she wove into the interview, her interview with me, and I'm sure other candidates applying for the position was: “You know, we are a bit of pioneers here, so what does that look like for you?” And honestly, being asked that question just gave me a sense of there's opportunity here. There's an ability to have a vision, set a vision, and go for it. And I was really excited by that. I was excited that I was asked to think about that at an interview, not just when you know I, the day I started or whatnot. And that students were very much a center of the work. So, those things stood out to me. Different kind of opportunity and everything. Everything else that when people go for job interviews, all that excitement, energy that was there. De Maria: Very cool. And one thing that I'm kind of getting from our conversation is this theme of kind of laying down foundational work for others to build off of. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. De Maria: So, that just gives me a little bit of insight about you and is also very inspiring. I want you to take me back to 2008 and just describe the social climate of CSU San Marcos at the time. I know that you're quoted in The Pride, the CSUSM newspaper, as kind of giving a little blurb about Facebook and the advent of social media with regards to organizing. And then, you also, or during that time, it was also the beginning of, essentially the beginning of the Obama administration. Sheikh-Arvizu: Right. De Maria: So again, just reiterating on the social climate of the campus. What was that like? What were you facing when you got into the role? Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah, what was I facing when I got into the role? I think this is maybe less on the social climate, but also the professional climate that I was kind of stepping into as well. I think folks were feeling like: we're doing this work and it's not seen. And we're tired. It's so hard. We're not given, there's not a lot of resources and, or resources are hard to come by, you know whatever that looks like. And so, so I felt like there-- resources could be money, resources could be space, resources could be knowledge about, you know, what these centers could offer. So, a lot of different things when I say resources. And so, I think that there was a sense of, there's a lot of students who wanna feel like they belong, but don't quite feel like they belong. That's my sense of what the social climate, cultural climate really felt like. And I think in addition to that, there was sense of there's not enough of us, us in it. And again, there could be lots of definitions of “us.” There's not, there's not enough queer students, there's not enough students of color, there's not enough Black students specifically , to really feel like our voices are being heard and seen and understood. And, you know, I love statistical data. And I also feel like stats are not everything. Because if you take stock, do a survey, do a you know climate some kind of climate survey, which we did, and the numbers come back ; again just you know statistically, when a population is only one, two, three percent of the whole population or the everyone who took the survey, it's quote unquote not statistically significant. However, that does not mean that people's experiences are not significant. They most certainly are. And if we continue to move those experiences aside because they are not, quote unquote the majority, and as a group they never will be, because that's not the majority of people who are at Cal State San Marcos or so many places. So, I think that people were actually like feeling that. They were experiencing in real ways what, how we talk about data. I think that folks were experiencing that as people, right? They were feeling like they were not significant enough to the university or in their classroom. And I wanna balance that with, you know, it didn't mean-- there were a lot of folks that cared, but I think it was just a sense of like we're, we're here but people aren't listening, or people don't care. And we need change. And yet more people than quote unquote the “us” didn't see it. So yeah, that's what I feel like (laughs) the climate was. And I think for me as a professional, the other thing that I saw is that there were a lot of folks that were trying hard, I think that I said that at the beginning. They were trying really hard. They were putting a lot of effort in. And so for me, what I felt like I was seeing was all these individual spaces or people were trying really hard, but they weren't connecting. And so that is specifically what I came in feeling like, okay, this is what I wanna do (laughs). I wanna make some connections. I wanna work together. Because this sense of, if we all have this sense that we're not being, we're not strong enough or our voice isn't loud enough, or people aren't hearing us, or we know that we matter, but we don't feel like we belong, what can we do about that? And so, for me it was really important to start to make connections, work together, come together, develop programs together, (laughs) so that that voice is a collective voice. De Maria: I see. And thank you for kind of outlining the challenges that you faced stepping into the role kind of as it related to what I mentioned with the social climate. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. De Maria: So, similar to my question about your experience at Chapman, I'd love to hear about some of your proudest accomplishments for the Cross-Cultural Center, that you were spearheading when you were there. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. So, my time at Cross-- at Cal State San Marcos at the Cross-Cultural Center is like the little spark of my own candle that I feel like really continues to light what my professional career is, and it's because of the work that was done at San Marcos, the willingness, the people coming together. So, one of the programs that for me , I did have a vision for and also wanted folks to come together and envision together was the Social Justice Summit. And I know that it looks different now, as it should (laughs). It should not stay stagnant. That was never the intent. And however, but that's setting the foundation for having a multiple-day overnight retreat to talk, to unpack what social justice is, to unpack what the cycle of oppression and socialization look like, how it affects us, what we can do. That's what that program is about. And so for me, that was a program that I, like I said I had a vision for, but I wanted folks to come together and have this vision together and expand. It wasn't just about my vision. So, I worked with, at the time Rodger D’Andreas, who was the Director of the LGBTQ Pride Center. And I believe at the time briefly, he was also overseeing the Women's (and Gender Equity) Center, which I know is differently named now. Do you know what the name of that center is, Michael? De Maria: I, I—(interruption) Sheikh-Arvizu: It's okay if you don't! De Maria: I cannot recall it off the top of my head, unfortunately. Sheikh-Arvizu: That's okay. So, we'll just continue to call it the Women's Center because that's what I knew it as at the time. And, then other folks on campus and students coming together and saying, “Hey, this is this thought. What do you think? How can we do this? When can we do this? What would it look like? Let's develop essentially the curriculum.” And so, it was a-- people liked it. They wanted to be a part of it. They wanted to come, they wanted to be part of the committee, (laughs) they wanted to come. It was a great success. It was like one of those things where I feel like we were able to read what the social climate was and actually meet a need that was there. The need to come together, the need to know and see and understand that we weren't all alone. That there is actually a community that cares about a lot of these same things. And then this other piece of, now all of a sudden we had more language, we had more examples we had, and I say “we” cause I think that that is the important part. That was the important part, was that (clears throat). Excuse me. Folks did feel like a “we,” felt like there was a community. They could come together. So Social Justice Summit, and quickly I knew that, okay next year when we do this, we need to have student facilitators. It's not just about all of the staff and faculty coming together, teaching students. That's what, that's what happens every day in the classroom. But to have this kind of co-model of students and staff and faculty coming together to lead sessions, to lead dialogues, to conduct training together, conduct this Social Justice Summit together. And so, we started doing that as well the next year and just continuing to have a vision for what could be the future all the time. So that was a program. Something that was incredibly important to me was working together with other social centers, and to talk about what is this? What does social justice look like? Because if we're, if we're not working together then we're only really focusing on one kind of oppression. And when oppression, when one of us are affected by oppression, we all are. And there's not just one type of oppression. So I was, I feel so lucky that the professional staff and the student staff were so willing to come together. To come together to do trainings together, to come together to do programs together. Cafe La Paz was a program that came together where we opened one of the centers a week (at night). And that sounds kind of like, so what? (laughs) But it was really important because no center was open late at night. There was no space open at night for students. Now there's a student center (University Student Union) and it probably looks different. I'm imagining it looks different. I have been on campus, not at night though, since but it, the vibe is different now. But at the time, that wasn't the case. It was like five o'clock everyone's closed. And so, students were really saying, “We want a space to be, we're still here, we're still taking classes, or we're waiting for our next class. Like, but you're closed.” So, we tried to do that. Started with the once-a-week thing, and with the concept of rotating the center that was open so that again, this idea of community could continue to grow. So, Cafe La Paz grew out of that , that thought process. And it was a student run program. Professional staff weren't a part of it. We had a student from each of the centers who planned that week's or, oh gosh, I don't even know what time, I believe that week’s or that month's you know, Cafe La Paz was gonna be open late night. So, they planned what was gonna happen, what's the component from all three centers, what are we focusing on? What's the food, what's the, you know everything. So they really did that. And made sure that people showed up (laughs). And then for me, other things that... There's a lot of things that stand out, but for me, that central kind of line was making connections. So, making sure that faculty knew just as much about the Cross-Cultural Center and the social justice centers as staff did. That other offices did, that orientation did. And that we could start to be seen as a space where everyone was welcome. And that was really important to me. Again, back to that sense of, I started my career in social justice because I didn't feel like I belonged. And so, I wanted to continue to create opportunities and spaces where people felt like they could belong and connect no matter where they quote unquote were, right? On their own social justice journey. So, we did a trivia program and that came directly from (when) a student and I went to a conference. We heard a speaker talk about this idea of history and people of color having this history that's there, but it's totally, it's unknown in the U.S. (United States of America). When you , when you ask folks, you know U.S. history, anything about U.S. history, it's like this laundry list and it's all focused on the White center, right? And so, we were like, what would this, what would it look like if we started to actually know other kind, other histories that are not this list that everyone quote unquote knows and learns. Can we focus outside of the center? And so we did, we developed a (laughs), a multicultural trivia program. Again, it was meant as a thing of like, how can we connect? If folks don't want to come together, go to a Social Justice Summit for three days, that's not their thing, but they wanna do some trivia. Let's go it, let's do it. Right? So just trying to meet people in the space that they want to be in , or that's intriguing to them. And we did, we had some folks that came to trivia but never came to anything else. And that is totally fine because what we gained from that is someone who's still connected, still saying, “Oh this is important to learn. I'm excited to learn this because I'm showing up. And I have pizza, both.” (laughs) I think sometimes we, like in my profession in higher ed, when I was working in higher ed, we focus on the food a lot, a lot, a lot. And I actually think that the program stood on its own without pizza because people still participated. They didn't just show up for pizza and sit there and eat their pizza. They came, they got some pizza, they participated in the program. And really got into it (laughs). And we had zero prizes. It was a clap, like, “Yay, team four, you did it! You were the winners.” That's it. That's all you got. So it was really just like the experience of being there, coming together, having this fun, fun lunch. Which was very cool. De Maria: Very cool. So, just my takeaway from hearing about those programs, with regards to the summit in particular, it sounds like you were making a big impact on an issue that was more of a qualitative nature or difficult to quantify. And that also kind of shines through with the other examples of Cafe La Paz as well as those, that trivia program. In our introductory call, you also mentioned to me the importance of the student staff kind of being the lifeblood of the organization and providing tremendous assistance to you in a leadership position as well as other leaders. So, I just wanted to know about some of the ways that you empowered your student staff, and maybe what that experience was like. Sheikh-Arvizu: Oh, I loved working with students. You know, my approach to empowering my staff was to listen. It was to open up the opportunity for them to think and explore and discuss and I always consider myself a yes person. I really like ideas. I love to see how an idea could turn into something real. And so, I really just encourage my staff to do the same. There are some moments with student staff that really stand out to me and I hope that folks will be okay (with) me talking about them. But having a staff member, this is prior to them being a staff member, 'cause it was an interview. Actually I have two interview moments that really stand out to me. But one was with a staff member in his interview and two of us interviewed him. We asked the questions and this student really struggled with the language. Was you know, (unclear) defining and using terms that we generally feel like is important. However, he had amazing experiences (and) connections. He was making these connections but did not have the terminology. So, it was like you know, the other person who did the interview was like, “I don't know, they don't seem like a good fit. They don't have this knowledge.” And I'm like, “Yes, yes. They have the knowledge. They have the knowledge because let's look back at all of these examples they were able to give. They are on point, they get it.” And I think that's what a lot of students are experiencing. They understand what's going on. They have the experiences and we can help put some of those words together. That's not a problem in my mind. And so, when I made the offer to this student, I think it was a little bit of a surprise 'cause I don't think that they thought they had a good interview. Because all things considered they didn't (laugh)! You know, like they stumbled through questions, all of that stuff. But, I think for me it was just being able to see something and then telling them, telling students like, “Hey, I see this in you. You talked about this. Tell me more about it. You mentioned this. Tell me more about that.” And just opening that space to get to know them , get to understand some of their experiences and what they wanted to do with that or how they wanted to make an impact. The other thing that I tried to do right away was make sure that all of the student staff, and if we had interns, anyone, anyone who was like working in some way, shape or form for the Cross-Cultural Center to open up opportunities for them to be elsewhere on campus, on committees. I had students chair committees and I had supervisors who were really nervous about that. And at times I was nervous about that too. But I felt like, “Okay, if folks are nervous about that, let's explore what the nervousness is about and also let's ensure that whatever they're nervous about isn't gonna happen. And even if it does, it's okay.” But just coming from the perspective of like, I just wanted to open up opportunities for students to be seen, to be heard, to have a voice, to lead. And essentially that's it. Because I really like ideas. We also shifted to a new space (laughs) during my tenure. And so, with in that move it allowed us the opportunity to say, “Oh, let's look around. What is this new space we're in? What could it be?” And it really was working with them on defining what it could be. And so, I think when they experienced that, what their thoughts were, their ideas mattered, and we-- and they could actually see it happen. Then to me they felt empowered to do more, to do differently, to take risks to also see themselves as leaders. And that, to me was the point. De Maria: That's very cool. (both laugh). Kind of going off of that, I mean, obviously we've been talking about your experience at the Cross-Cultural Center in depth. But in your own opinion, or in your own words, what was your favorite memory? Sheikh-Arvizu: Favorite memory? Well, you know, I left-- there's two and one is (a) very tiny moment, but it has significance to me. And one feels like a big thing. I was driving home after the first Social Justice Summit. I'm a complete introvert. So being with people, I have to focus a lot of attention and energy to really be present. And I was just at a three-day retreat with, you know, fifty people (laughs). So, I'm driving home by myself. I have the windows rolled down, no music because I cannot handle more like input after the weekend. That I was like thinking and saying to myself in my quiet car, “That was amazing! And there's so much we could do with this program in the future.” Like my, I know that I'm sharing a memory that was by myself, but it really wasn't the memory of me being by myself. It was the memory of this amazing program and the way that we as staff were able to shift in the moment based on what we saw , what we ha-- what happened, and the flexibility there. And then the students in watching their transformation in just three days of you know, there was an evaluation that I had read before I left as well. And it was like, “I did not believe. I did not believe that you were gonna pull this off!” Right? Like, that's the beginning of the evaluation. Like, I'm sitting in session, I was sitting in session one and I didn't think it was gonna go anywhere. And then they continued to write, and then this happened and this happened and this happened and this was a great experience. And I was like, wow! To both be able to write like this criticism of like, I didn't think this was gonna go well, to this really changed my perspective. Was (laughs) it was a great moment kind of collectively, individually . I feel like I'm not doing a very good job actually expressing what I was feeling about this, very awesome moment. But, that's where it was. I was like literally in my car, just processing this entire, the entire weekend in the moment. But then, in the processing also feeling, “Wow, I have so much energy and I have so much, there's so much more we could give to this program. There's more we can do.” And being excited to do that, even though it was gonna be a year later (laughs). And then another moment was small, like I said. Totally different person (laughs) interviewing, getting ready to interview, because they wanted to work for the Cross-Cultural Center. And he walks in, he has a shirt, a tie, and his baseball hat , which he always wore. And I was like, okay, this is awesome. I'm interviewing him. Well, later I find out that his peers coached him on how to interview. And that for me was the moment of like, it's a great memory because the community was taking care of one another. He was ready to walk in, in like a t-shirt that he wears every single day, which really, in a lot of spaces that's okay. But his peers were saying, “No, you gotta step this up. You know, this is an interview. It's different, it's different than just walking into the Cross-Cultural Center every day.” And at the same time, he wanted to be himself cause they were encouraging him not to wear his hat, but he kept his hat on. That was part of him. Someone else gave him the tie, right? Like this was literally all (laughs), the community was caring for one another in that moment. And so, I was just so proud of folks coming together and I was proud of him for keeping his identity as part of something that he wanted to be present at the interview. Right? So, I don't know, those were my two moments of like, it, they just really stood out for very different reasons. (laughs) De Maria: No, I completely get that. And I think, another challenge that we seem to be getting back to is the quantitative versus qualitative issue. Especially with subjects as profound as this, where people might not be represented. So sometimes that qualitative evidence is also very powerful to see in action . So that's super cool. Next, I wanted to, and again, previously you described your experience at the Cross-Cultural Center as kind of being the spark that fueled the rest of your career. So, this is again kind of like an abstract question, but I wanted to know just how the Cross-Cultural Center helped you develop as a professional and further that journey? Sheikh-Arvizu: That's a great question. And also, I love abstract questions. (laughs) For me, I think part of me felt like I couldn't do it, be in that position, oversee and manage the Cross-Cultural Center. Because I had never worked in a Cross-Cultural Center before . And I had never been part of a student organization before (laughs). Particularly as it relates to, as it related to my identity. And so, part of me felt like, I don't know like I'm doing this work, but it kind of feels like I'm not doing this work. And at the same time, I also knew in my gut I could. It was just like fighting with my own perception of how other people might have perceived me, right? All in my head, but also all in my heart, right? Like, my experience as a person, as a human being, as a mixed-race person, as a queer person. I'm sitting in all these spaces where it's like, I don't often hear that I belong and I can do it. I could do this, I could do this thing that maybe it doesn't seem I'm really qualified for. And so, what the spark was, was I feel like I sort of came into my own power of I can do this and I don't have to be the center. I never really connected with this sense of a leader is someone at the front. They're taking the podium, they have the microphone, they can be seen, they are the first on the list for people to invite. Like I wasn't, I didn't subscribe to that kind of leadership. And so , I felt I could do my kind of leadership and I could also see other people's kind of leadership and say, “Do it! Do your kind of leadership, do it your way.” And I didn't feel I had to prove myself and say, “I am the center stage. This is my program!” No, it wasn't (laughs). I literally did not set structures like that where I was the one leading the program. I was the center. It really was let's do this together, or let me support you (laughs). It's not mine, it's yours. This is your idea. You carry it. Let's figure out how to do it. And, I think that what I learned was I could have a vision. I did have a vision for the Cross-Cultural Center and I could have that vision with other people. And I, that was really, really revolutionary to me that I could have a vision and we could have a shared vision together. And it didn't have to be so individualized. That does not seem like the rest of the culture around me, that does not seem like what it means to be in American society. And so I really held onto that. I still hold onto that, that sense of like, it's better when we do it together. It's better when we have a vision for this together. It's better when we can see our differences and learn what that means. Learn why things matter differently. Learn to take on perspectives that are different from you. So, it felt like I learned a lot during that process. It felt like I set a foundation for myself professionally, not just for that space, the Cross-Cultural Center as a space, as a community and things like that. I felt like I wanted to live what I said my values were. And that was the place that I feel like my alignment was really, really close. De Maria: Very, very cool. Going off of that line of questioning just about you as a professional , and kind of what you took from the experience, I know that you're currently working with OC (Orange County) Human Relations (Commission) on several projects. So, I just wanted to know how your experiences with Cross-Cultural Center influenced the programs that you're working on currently. And maybe what some of those programs are (both laugh). Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. Well, so I am a training specialist in Orange County Human Relations, (laughs). By the time this oral history project is done, we likely will have a different name as an organization (laughs). Okay. So it'll be a little bit obsolete, but that's okay. It is what it is. I, and I just started in my role. I was in a different role prior . So, some things that I've done in the organization that I feel like do have a connection to Cal State San Marcos, and working at the Cross- Cultural Center ; I'm training and I'm coaching folks on how to align who you say you are and how you do that work, right? So, we say diversity and equity and inclusion and belonging are all important to us and are important to us in our organization, are important to us in our school, our school district, or in our community? Okay! How do you do that? What does that look like? How do you measure that? Right? So, I feel like I asked very pointed questions right then like boom, boom, boom, right? And lots of times it's more gentle. It's, and also lots of times it's a lot of different kinds of questions. So, what I feel like is the connection for me, from (CSU) San Marcos is this idea of well, when you have a vision (you) have to be able to figure out how to put things in place, right? So, if we have the vision of, living in a community that values equity and enacts, that is an equitable place, then we need to do some hard work. And sometimes that hard work could be training, sometimes that hard work could be conversations and dialogues. Sometimes that hard work is assessing how hate and hate incidents and crimes are impacting our community. And that's all work that I feel like I'm touching or part of directly at Orange County Human Relations. And pulling community together I think is kind of the other theme. On a college campus community is, tends to be the college community or the community of students in particular. So, it's like this little bubble of, you know, built-in community. But working at Orange County Human Relations, that is not just built in. And, you know: timing, availability, interest, money, all of that. Funding, I should say, more than money. Right, all of that plays a role. And so, but still figuring out how do we come together and have a common vision. Literally just went through with a group on writing a mission statement (laughs). So, you know, creating that vision and also laying out how do we do this? This is who we say we are, how do we do it? De Maria: Very, very cool. I do have a few more questions left. And all of them are more about sort of the future of the Cross-Cultural Center and possibly social justice in general. But looking ahead, what aspirations do you have for future students who interact with the Cross-Cultural Center? Want to get involved? Sheikh-Arvizu: I feel like I would just want students to, to try it out. I mean community is really what we make it to be. And it's a we. So, if as a person, if right, if you're seeking community wherever you are, is where community can be. And it means, and it means stepping in, it means taking a risk. It means saying hi. It means going to a program. It means just seeing yourself there. That's all very abstract (laughs), but I think, you know, there's lots of places to connect and find community. You can connect and find community in the chem lab that you're working in, right? Or researching in or studying in. And, and I think for me, the Cross-Cultural Center is a different kind of community in that you can kind of go back and forth between exploring common interests and activities and also talking about how oppression, racism, sexism, identity, politics, how that plays a role in your life. And feel like oh, actually these other folks get it. I don't have to explain that much. And they're here with me for me. And, and we can eat fries together. It just spans so many different kinds of ways to connect. And I think, you know, if you're looking for multiple ways to connect, it's a great way, it's a great space! I would say any identity-based space is a great space cause it's like the opportunity to feel connected to other people, to other identities, to your own identity. And also potentially other things like music, food, we can go play sports together, you know, whatever that is. Yeah, I think that everyone needs, that needs to feel a sense of validation. And for me, I think identity spaces, social justice spaces are spaces where that can happen. De Maria: I think that's beautiful. Sheikh-Arvizu: Are you okay? You this like—(interruption) De Maria: I'm complete. I'm completely fine. Sheikh-Arvizu: Okay. De Maria: Just very, very profound experiences that you're sharing with me that I really appreciate. De Maria: So, regarding my next line of questioning, I also wanted to ask you about what communities you feel might be currently underrepresented on our campus, or possibly bringing some attention to some underrepresented communities that you're currently working with. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. Ooh, great question. I cannot possibly answer that question (laughs), because I'm not there and I have not looked, I've not really walked on campus. I haven't looked at any demographics at all again, like that like I can look at paper, I can look at numbers. However, I think that your last add in there to the question , like populations that I'm also working with you know. I think that... I, last year was charged with writing our hate crime report for the on behalf of the county and, something that I feel like were like central communities that were really impacted. And I personally feel like in the report, but I'm sure out of the report, beyond the report, the depth is much greater and could never be captured in a report. It was the Black community ; so small, percentage wise, right? In the county. And I'm in Orange County right now so, the Black population is about two, sometimes three percent of the whole population of Orange County. But the number of hate incidents and crimes that are because of Black hate, right? Is completely disproportionate, is like exponentially disproportionate. And so really focusing on seeing that community other communities as well. I feel like numbers keep rising for anti-Asian hate and Latinx hate. I feel like numbers... numbers, incidents, experiences, uh, like a little snippet of like media also capturing this rise also in numbers and gravity of anti-LGBTQ hate, and anti-Semitic hate and like how that, that actually as a center for lots of different kinds of hate, kind of like, it looks like what it looks like to the eye. And folks maybe particularly not in the Jewish community where, it's like you could see a swastika and also the n-word both at the same time, right? Graffiti somewhere and it's like, so is that anti-Semitic? Is that anti-black? Like what is that? Whew. And unpacking that is like so much I think for folks, I don't think it's so much for the Black community or the Jewish community, or the Black Jewish community both, right? To unpack. But I think for a lot of other folks it's like, “What kind of hate is that? How do we describe it? Why? Why is this, what is this connection?” But it's really important that we do unpack it, we do explore it, we do start to understand what that means and why, and how it's progressing. It really scares me that we are in a time of, where in the country , that history is being removed, that literally people's histories are being removed, people's existence are being removed from curriculum. And that's really scary to me. That did not exactly answer your question, but I think for me there was a connection there. De Maria: It did answer my question very thoroughly actually. So thank you. And I've got two more questions left to kind of wrap up the interview. But first I just wanted to ask you what direction you think the Cross-Cultural Center should grow in? Sheikh-Arvizu: Oh, also one that I do not feel equipped. So I was only there for like, two and a half years? Pretty small. And there, both on campus and with the Cross-Cultural Center, the Cross-Cultural Center is in a different space even than it was when I was there. I was there for two spaces and I was there to advocate for how much physical space the next Cross-Cultural Center should occupy. So, it is now in that space and now there are more identity spaces, more cultural spaces and centers. And for me, I think with the work that I'm doing now, it still has a collaborative communal coming together need. And I would hope that that's what's happening now too, for the Cross-Cultural Center, right? But there, that the Cross-Cultural Center, the students, the staff, are working with other centers and other spaces and other student organizations and there's connections. That's what I, that's what I, I don't know, future, future (laughs). But I think it's really important to come together. I think it's also really important to make statements, so people know that they're supported. And I think that this is not necessarily just about the Cross-Cultural Center specific space or leadership there ; it's like a broader everywhere that we look to leaders in positional, with positional power, specifically with titles , right? Like presidents, vice presidents, you know, whatever the titles are directors. We look to them, we expect that, we expect to hear from them when something affects the community. And I would encourage that to happen. Right? The-- I am not criticizing anything at all. I'm just saying it should happen, period. If it is awesome, because hopefully what that means is that students feel like they do belong and there's, there's connection there. And they're safe. They're safe in who they are. They're safe in their identity, they're safe to be and belong. And so that I think is important. To take a stand, to say something , right? To say, “We care to say this is not okay here.” If there is hate or if there is, and I say “if,” and really I know that it happens. It's there. It is there, it's everywhere. So yeah, just making sure people feel like they matter, individuals and communities. De Maria: Totally. And wrapping things up, again you continuously kind of reference this process of learning, which is an extremely important part of understanding social justice and also participating in it. Whether that's learning about somebody else's culture, learning how to communicate about someone else's culture to them, or learning how to ultimately take a stand and become a voice in your community. With that being said, if someone were interested in pursuing a career in social justice much like yourself, what tips would you give them? Sheikh-Arvizu: Wow. I think for me, having that sort of like home-base community or people is really important. Folks that you can say, “Hey, this is happening and I don't get it, or I feel like I messed up,” or “What am I missing?” It's really important to have those people in your life! Particularly doing social justice work, because social justice work is hard and it is literally every day. It could be your, the, you know, quote unquote nine to five, like what you're doing during the day , and then you go pick up some dinner and somehow there's still some like quote unquote “social justice work” that needs to be done there (laughs). So it doesn't necessarily, there's not like a timeline like, oh, it's five o'clock, I'm not doing this work anymore. So I think to like have, have your people, whoever those people are, people that you can count on, people that can support you, people that can listen, people that can challenge you, people that can show you a different perspective. And those people should not look like you. Not all of them, maybe some of them. They should-- and when I say look like you, I don't exactly just mean look like you, I mean look like you, think like you, have the same identity markers as you do, or if not like you like one kind of person, right? And to kind of do that inventory and see like what perspectives am I missing in my own life, in my professional life. I think don't be scared (laughs). Don't be scared to be the learner as much as the teacher or trainer or coach. Sometimes I feel like my career was like poking a stick. I was like, look at this (laughs, waves imaginary stick in air), right? Like, look at this thing, what's happening? And I wanted people to see, and you know what? There was certainly a place for that. There's a place for that in my career. I felt like the organization, you know, needed that at the time or different organizations, more than one, right? Needed to see what was happening! And I, what I appreciate now in my career too, and where I am, is that other folks can do that. I can still do that and it might look and sound a little bit different than it did when I was in my early career (laughs), in my career at Cal State San Marcos, where I could say, “Look at this! This is a problem!” And, or I could hear it from a student, I could say, “Then say that, right?” Like, you go do it. “Say that somewhere. Uh, your voice is powerful.” So I think like those lessons I, for someone who wants to get to get into social justice or stay, it doesn't mean you're not in a social justice like job career focus already, is to know your way, right? Know your power, find your power, explore it, see, you know, what works where. And it might be different tactics in different places, and I think it's important to test it out and to lean into other people, to um, you know, see if they could be more effective or more effective with you together. I think too that, you know, for a lot of folks it won't feel like social justice is the center of your work. It won't! You might be doing something else. It doesn't mean that you have to discard social justice or the idea or goal of equity. You don't have to toss it away. It can still be part of your work. There's a lot of like individual things that you can do. There's a lot of cultural things that you can do that, where it can still be central to the way you think about your work, to the way you approach your work, to the way you approach outside of the workplace. I'm now a parent. The way you approach parenting to the way (laugh). Like, I know for me, like what a mind-shift of like, oh, I value this in my work and in my life, but now I have a young human and they are doing things I did not expect! But am I doing things that I didn't expect with my values in social justice and equity with my values in listening and opening up space? Whew. That's hard (laughs). And it's hard, I know I'm framing it in this parent space, but also it's hard when you're in other workplaces again, where social justice might not be the center of the work that you're doing, but it's like, I'm in this organization and like I don't feel like I'm showing up as mys-- As the self I want to or I'm not being supported. Sometimes that means it's okay to leave. It is okay to leave! It's also okay to stay and challenge if that's what you have the capacity for. And you should, if you have the capacity for that or that's what drives you, then do it. Do it that way. If you do not have the capacity or it is a toxic environment, it is okay to leave. And continue your social justice work somewhere else in another space. It can look different. It's okay (laughs). It's not like you don't have to constantly struggle all the time or feel like you don't belong, or that you don't matter at all in a space that's not-- I mean those organizations need to change and do better and do different, but it doesn't mean that you have to be the, you don't have to bear the brunt of that work that they're not really ready to do. I was all over the place with that (laughs), but the, the, the thought of a career in social justice is, like... my thought before my career began in social justice is very different than what my career has been. And so that's where I feel like I have a lot of different like, thoughts of what that can mean for folks. And it can be so different based on the person and your identities and the institutions that you are in. Right? And who even is your network of people, or what's needed in the organ-- in different organizations. I thought I was a great fit for other jobs. I was not. I was not selected. There were other people out there who are doing this work, so also connect. It's okay! They're, they wanna do this work too. They're qualified to do this work. Like, so that sense of like leaving competition out. I dunno. Or putting it in check. De Maria: Very, very cool. I think based on those tips as well as the other information you shared with me, you're an excellent resource for someone who's interested in going into the social justice field. So I really appreciate you taking time out today, Sara, and speak to me about your involvement in the Cross-Cultural Center as well as some of the work that you're doing now. And I think this is gonna be a great resource for anyone trying to learn more about social justice initiatives in their community and how to get involved as well as the history of the Cross-Cultural Center itself. So just wanted to thank you again for taking time out to speak to me about this. This has been a very, very special, special interview. Sheikh-Arvizu: Of course. And I'm here, I'm still here. We have Zoom, we have phone calls, we have, there's so many ways to connect. So yes, if I'm a resource for someone that's listening or watching (laughs) in the future, but you wanna make a connection that's open, like that's available too, right? And I, and I'm pretty sure that, that, I hope, and I'm sure it will stand for other folks that are part of this project and that's why we wanna be part of this project, right? Like not just for the history component, but the future component, which is important. De Maria: Absolutely. Well, we obviously appreciate it. Again, thank you for your time and yeah, I know this isn't the end of your journey. So, (I’m) very excited to see what else you go on to do in your career and what other the communities you’ll impact. Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah, thank you Michael. Thank you. 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Sheikh-Arvizu, Sara. Interview March 30, 2023.
Description
An account of the resource
Sara Sheikh-Arvizu was Assistant Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at California State University San Marcos from 2008 to 2011. In this interview, Sara discusses her roles at CSUSM and the various programs she initiated or facilitated. Sara also briefly discusses her current work with Orange County Human Relations.
Identifier
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SC027-30
Subject
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California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
Chapman University
Civil rights
Education, Higher
LGBTQ+ activism
LGBTQ+ life
Orange County Human Relations Commission (Orange County, Calif.)
Date
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2023-03-30
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video
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Sara Sheikh-Arvizu
Contributor
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Michael De Maria
Coverage
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Orange (Calif.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Sara Sheikh-Arvizu
Activists and activism
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
LGBTQIA+ experience
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2ec9076e1d55c0a2899af8cdc2860b9a.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
SARA SHEIKH-ARVIZU
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-30
Michael De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I'm a graduate research assistant here at CSU
(California State University) San Marcos with Kellogg Library’s Special Collections Department. I'm joined
here today by Sarah Sheikh-Arvizu. The date is March 30th, 2023, and the time is 10:36 A.M. So today
we're going to be focusing on Sarah's involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, especially as it
pertains to her stint as the Associate Director of Programs at the Cross-Cultural Center. So Sarah, thank
you for joining me today. To start things off, I actually wanted to take things back a little bit. My first
question is more about your background in the field, and I wanted to know when you decided to make
social justice a focal point of your career.
Sara Sheikh-Arvizu: I, it's a great question. Thank you. I'm happy to be here and be part of this project.
For me, you know, to get-- jump right into your question, I wanted social justice to be the center of my
work and my work life, since I was in college. I, there's a training that stood out to me. When I first
became a student staff member on my own undergraduate campus. I was gonna be starting working in
housing, and there was a diversity training which feels so regular and normal now, that's just part of
what training involves. And it was at the time for me as well. But there was something that happened in
that training that I felt like, “You know, I wanna be in this work and I want to do better.” I, it was a
training that was focused on race, and what happened was they asked us to split up into two different
spaces. A space for white folks and a space for folks of color, and I being mixed race, and there was
about five or six other folks also, all sort of like walked up to the people who were facilitating, who were
not directly our staff members, as another organization who came in to do this training, and asked
“Where do we go? We don't fit into either one of these spaces.” And for us, we were looking for an
answer and also validation. We were also offering to create our own space and asking if we could do
that. And we weren't given permission to do that. We were told to choose one of those spaces, and that
was a choice that I feel like I shouldn't have been asked to make. None of the five or six of us should
have been asked to make. And honestly, I didn't want other folks to have to choose something like that
in their experience on a college campus. So that really was like the moment that I wanted to be part of
social justice work. It was honestly that moment in college.
De Maria: Very, very interesting. And from then on, what sorts of organizations or activities did you
involve yourself in, to kind of further that goal? And then also where did you attend undergraduate
studies?
Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah so, my undergrad was at UC (University of California) Irvine, and other things I got
involved with, some of it was just about learning for me. So, some of the things I got involved with were
taking classes that were in gender studies, queer studies, and just learning more about what else was
going on, right? Learning more about how we socially work together? You know, what does oppression
look like? And kind of exploring and unpacking that. I think for me, other spaces that I was trying to get
connected to and involved with was the LGBTQ Center on our campus. And so, I did a(n) internship
there, connected to research. That was what my program, it was a requirement of my program as well,
but I chose that as the place to do my site study. And then, and then just creating those spaces. So I,
beyond my undergrad, the other places that I sought to be connected, education was always really
important to me. And so, whenever I attended conferences as a professional, that was, I really focused
all of the sessions I went to on learning more about folks that were different from me, had different
identities than myself. So, I was drawn to topics about transgender students. I was drawn to topics
Transcribed by Michael De
Maria and Aaron Williams
1
2024-01-25
�SARA SHEIKH-ARVIZU
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-30
about equity and how to measure and set out plans. So, like my (laughs) and my interest was wide. I
wanted to, I tried to attend a lot of panels where folks were kind of sharing their stories or insight or,
advice as it related to their identity. It was something that I felt like I needed to hear, but I also felt very
validated in hearing those stories and really taking those on as something like, they were not my stories
to take on, but they were the knowledge from what people were sharing I could take on and I could
apply in other ways.
De Maria: That's very, very profound, and look, talking about your background, I also know that you
have your masters. Of course, you are quite educated, and you've emphasized a lot about the learning
aspect of social justice and being a participant that way. So, I wanna shift gears here and start talking
about your professional career, post education. I know that you were also a program coordinator at
Chapman (University) prior to joining the Cross-Cultural Center. So, I just wanted to walk you through, or
walk me through some of the major projects that you led there.
Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. (clears throat) Excuse me. Yeah, so I was at Chapman. That was my first
professional job outside of undergrad and graduate school. And so, some of the projects that I focused
on, so I was in the Office of Social Justice. So honestly, as a young professional it felt amazing to have a
job where social justice was actually in the title of my position. I felt like it's what I was seeking. And
what I found out when I was there was that they needed a lot of foundational work. So, something to
really be a launching point for this Office of Social Justice. And so, what I did there was really try to
figure out, “Okay, well what are the cornerstones of this office of the work?” And working directly with
students to do that. For me, something that was a program that was well developed but was handed
kind of, I don't know whether to say back to me or quote unquote my position or handed to me to lead,
was a Safe, the Safe Space Training Program.
So that was a program that I was kind of gifted. And for me, I wanted to expand it, expand the reach of
that program, expand the depth of what that program could offer, with regard to training and education
and visibility. And so, that was a focus area of what I tried to develop. So, to increase the committee that
was really working on the safe space trainings and initiatives. We added a train the trainer component
so that there were more trainers on campus and it wasn't, you know, focused on just three people doing
every training for the whole campus. You know, rotating through, over and over. And then we increased
the number and the types of trainings that we offered. So it wasn't, it wasn't solely like a-- essentially at
the time LGBT101; really going over definitions and some case study work and unpacking bias and things
like that. (We) started to do more trainings in addition to that, which was, which was amazing. And then
other foundational pieces of the Office of Social Justice. Some of the work that students really wanted to
do was have these landmark programs where they could keep doing it and build from every year, which
I thought was a great foundation-setter. So, some of the programs that I remember starting there and
then doing a few times in my time there (at Chapman), was we called it Reel Justice, R-E-E-L. So focused
on films, right? So, exploring social justice through films. It was a film week, and we were showing films
that were not, that were kind of along the lines of a theme. And something that was really unique that I
loved that our students put into this was connecting with-- at Chapman there's an excellent film
program where students are developing and creating and directing their own, producing their own films.
So that was part of the Reel Justice program.
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Another one was a Peace and Earth Fair. So, it was also working with students who were in their student
government, on a team called the Awareness Team. And so, they were also charged with doing
programs that were more along the lines of awareness, raising awareness about justice was really the
focus there. And so, they wanted to do a Peace and Earth Fair. And so, what was really cool about the
way that they wanted to approach it, and they were kind of willing to explore was how do you align the
purpose of the program with the process of the program? So, you know, if it's a Peace and Earth Fair and
we're really focusing on earth justice, what kind of, what are we using? What are we, we're having
tables out there, are we covering those tables with tablecloths? Are we covering them with something
that we're gonna, you know, throw away? No! (laughs) So, really like going and going the extra mile to
do research of, you know, how can we align this? How can we really show what this program is about in
the way that we do it just as much as what's done. And then something that, two things that I was kind
of proud of as well, that I think set the tone was starting to explore doing dialogue circles. So, something
that I was hearing from more than more than a handful, particularly of white students, was saying, “I
don't feel like I can be part of this conversation, this conversation about diversity, this conversation
about equity, this conversation about social justice.” And my take is everyone can be part of this
conversation and should be.
And so, I created a dialogue circle that was really focused on opening space where folks could join, and
be part of a conversation together. And it's really simple (laughs) in its, I don't know, in its purpose, was
to just have this space. So, we put it out there, we collected people's schedules cause I didn't want
schedules to be the thing that, you know, made people not able to participate in this conversation. We
had a nine, it was like a nine or ten p.m. (laughs) dialogue circle that folks committed to, 'cause that's,
those were the times that they were available and they were putting out there of like, “I wanna do it at
this time.” And whew, as a non-student I was like, not exactly ready for a nine p.m. (laughs) dialogue.
But that's when folks were available and wanted to participate. So, we did that and it really was just
coming together in a circle, setting an intention and having this conversation where everybody was,
could come and participate, and feel that sense of belonging to this conversation, belonging to this ideal
of social justice. So those are some things that we tried to put together. I'm sure that there are more,
but those are the ones that really stand out to me.
De Maria: Very cool. And all of that sounds very foundational, so that's really awesome to hear. From
that, I want to transition to discussing your involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center.
Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah.
De Maria: So, I just wanted to ask, what led you to the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM, and why did you
choose to depart from Chapman?
Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah, so the opportunity came about like any opportunity does. I wasn't necessarily
looking for anything, but you know, saw something come through just on a, on a listserv (computerized
list utilized by organizations to email advertisements). And so, I looked at it. Something that Chapman
did not have at the time was a Cross-Cultural Center. There was no physical space. Even the Office of
Social Justice that I was the program coordinator for, it was an office. It was my office with a door and a
window, and that was it and my desk. So, there was no concept of that physical space. Community
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looked very different, and ways to commune, to come together. It really was, you had to plan an event
for people to come together. And so, I was really seeking to be in a space like that. Like the CrossCultural Center was named C3 at the time, (laughs) at Cal State San Marcos.
And that's what I was seeking. There were, it was just a different kind of opportunity, a different way to
build foundation and different kinds of opportunities as well. When I came in for my interview, you
know I really was, I was taken aback in a very good way. Something that Dilcie (Perez), who was
overseeing the (Cross-Cultural) Center and the Director of Student Life and Leadership at the time,
something she wove into the interview, her interview with me, and I'm sure other candidates applying
for the position was: “You know, we are a bit of pioneers here, so what does that look like for you?” And
honestly, being asked that question just gave me a sense of there's opportunity here. There's an ability
to have a vision, set a vision, and go for it. And I was really excited by that. I was excited that I was asked
to think about that at an interview, not just when you know I, the day I started or whatnot. And that
students were very much a center of the work. So, those things stood out to me. Different kind of
opportunity and everything. Everything else that when people go for job interviews, all that excitement,
energy that was there.
De Maria: Very cool. And one thing that I'm kind of getting from our conversation is this theme of kind
of laying down foundational work for others to build off of.
Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah.
De Maria: So, that just gives me a little bit of insight about you and is also very inspiring. I want you to
take me back to 2008 and just describe the social climate of CSU San Marcos at the time. I know that
you're quoted in The Pride, the CSUSM newspaper, as kind of giving a little blurb about Facebook and
the advent of social media with regards to organizing. And then, you also, or during that time, it was also
the beginning of, essentially the beginning of the Obama administration.
Sheikh-Arvizu: Right.
De Maria: So again, just reiterating on the social climate of the campus. What was that like? What were
you facing when you got into the role?
Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah, what was I facing when I got into the role? I think this is maybe less on the social
climate, but also the professional climate that I was kind of stepping into as well. I think folks were
feeling like: we're doing this work and it's not seen. And we're tired. It's so hard. We're not given, there's
not a lot of resources and, or resources are hard to come by, you know whatever that looks like. And so,
so I felt like there-- resources could be money, resources could be space, resources could be knowledge
about, you know, what these centers could offer. So, a lot of different things when I say resources. And
so, I think that there was a sense of, there's a lot of students who wanna feel like they belong, but don't
quite feel like they belong. That's my sense of what the social climate, cultural climate really felt like.
And I think in addition to that, there was sense of there's not enough of us, us in it. And again, there
could be lots of definitions of “us.” There's not, there's not enough queer students, there's not enough
students of color, there's not enough Black students specifically, to really feel like our voices are being
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heard and seen and understood. And, you know, I love statistical data. And I also feel like stats are not
everything. Because if you take stock, do a survey, do a you know climate some kind of climate survey,
which we did, and the numbers come back; again just you know statistically, when a population is only
one, two, three percent of the whole population or the everyone who took the survey, it's quote
unquote not statistically significant. However, that does not mean that people's experiences are not
significant. They most certainly are. And if we continue to move those experiences aside because they
are not, quote unquote the majority, and as a group they never will be, because that's not the majority
of people who are at Cal State San Marcos or so many places. So, I think that people were actually like
feeling that. They were experiencing in real ways what, how we talk about data. I think that folks were
experiencing that as people, right? They were feeling like they were not significant enough to the
university or in their classroom. And I wanna balance that with, you know, it didn't mean-- there were a
lot of folks that cared, but I think it was just a sense of like we're, we're here but people aren't listening,
or people don't care. And we need change. And yet more people than quote unquote the “us” didn't see
it.
So yeah, that's what I feel like (laughs) the climate was. And I think for me as a professional, the other
thing that I saw is that there were a lot of folks that were trying hard, I think that I said that at the
beginning. They were trying really hard. They were putting a lot of effort in. And so for me, what I felt
like I was seeing was all these individual spaces or people were trying really hard, but they weren't
connecting. And so that is specifically what I came in feeling like, okay, this is what I wanna do (laughs). I
wanna make some connections. I wanna work together. Because this sense of, if we all have this sense
that we're not being, we're not strong enough or our voice isn't loud enough, or people aren't hearing
us, or we know that we matter, but we don't feel like we belong, what can we do about that? And so,
for me it was really important to start to make connections, work together, come together, develop
programs together, (laughs) so that that voice is a collective voice.
De Maria: I see. And thank you for kind of outlining the challenges that you faced stepping into the role
kind of as it related to what I mentioned with the social climate.
Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah.
De Maria: So, similar to my question about your experience at Chapman, I'd love to hear about some of
your proudest accomplishments for the Cross-Cultural Center, that you were spearheading when you
were there.
Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. So, my time at Cross-- at Cal State San Marcos at the Cross-Cultural Center is like
the little spark of my own candle that I feel like really continues to light what my professional career is,
and it's because of the work that was done at San Marcos, the willingness, the people coming together.
So, one of the programs that for me, I did have a vision for and also wanted folks to come together and
envision together was the Social Justice Summit. And I know that it looks different now, as it should
(laughs). It should not stay stagnant. That was never the intent. And however, but that's setting the
foundation for having a multiple-day overnight retreat to talk, to unpack what social justice is, to unpack
what the cycle of oppression and socialization look like, how it affects us, what we can do. That's what
that program is about. And so for me, that was a program that I, like I said I had a vision for, but I
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wanted folks to come together and have this vision together and expand. It wasn't just about my vision.
So, I worked with, at the time Rodger D’Andreas, who was the Director of the LGBTQ Pride Center. And I
believe at the time briefly, he was also overseeing the Women's (and Gender Equity) Center, which I
know is differently named now. Do you know what the name of that center is, Michael?
De Maria: I, I—(interruption)
Sheikh-Arvizu: It's okay if you don't!
De Maria: I cannot recall it off the top of my head, unfortunately.
Sheikh-Arvizu: That's okay. So, we'll just continue to call it the Women's Center because that's what I
knew it as at the time. And, then other folks on campus and students coming together and saying, “Hey,
this is this thought. What do you think? How can we do this? When can we do this? What would it look
like? Let's develop essentially the curriculum.” And so, it was a-- people liked it. They wanted to be a
part of it. They wanted to come, they wanted to be part of the committee, (laughs) they wanted to
come. It was a great success. It was like one of those things where I feel like we were able to read what
the social climate was and actually meet a need that was there. The need to come together, the need to
know and see and understand that we weren't all alone. That there is actually a community that cares
about a lot of these same things. And then this other piece of, now all of a sudden we had more
language, we had more examples we had, and I say “we” cause I think that that is the important part.
That was the important part, was that (clears throat). Excuse me. Folks did feel like a “we,” felt like there
was a community. They could come together. So Social Justice Summit, and quickly I knew that, okay
next year when we do this, we need to have student facilitators. It's not just about all of the staff and
faculty coming together, teaching students. That's what, that's what happens every day in the
classroom. But to have this kind of co-model of students and staff and faculty coming together to lead
sessions, to lead dialogues, to conduct training together, conduct this Social Justice Summit together.
And so, we started doing that as well the next year and just continuing to have a vision for what could
be the future all the time. So that was a program.
Something that was incredibly important to me was working together with other social centers, and to
talk about what is this? What does social justice look like? Because if we're, if we're not working
together then we're only really focusing on one kind of oppression. And when oppression, when one of
us are affected by oppression, we all are. And there's not just one type of oppression. So I was, I feel so
lucky that the professional staff and the student staff were so willing to come together. To come
together to do trainings together, to come together to do programs together. Cafe La Paz was a program
that came together where we opened one of the centers a week (at night). And that sounds kind of like,
so what? (laughs) But it was really important because no center was open late at night. There was no
space open at night for students. Now there's a student center (University Student Union) and it
probably looks different. I'm imagining it looks different. I have been on campus, not at night though,
since but it, the vibe is different now. But at the time, that wasn't the case. It was like five o'clock
everyone's closed. And so, students were really saying, “We want a space to be, we're still here, we're
still taking classes, or we're waiting for our next class. Like, but you're closed.” So, we tried to do that.
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Started with the once-a-week thing, and with the concept of rotating the center that was open so that
again, this idea of community could continue to grow.
So, Cafe La Paz grew out of that, that thought process. And it was a student run program. Professional
staff weren't a part of it. We had a student from each of the centers who planned that week's or, oh
gosh, I don't even know what time, I believe that week’s or that month's you know, Cafe La Paz was
gonna be open late night. So, they planned what was gonna happen, what's the component from all
three centers, what are we focusing on? What's the food, what's the, you know everything. So they
really did that. And made sure that people showed up (laughs). And then for me, other things that...
There's a lot of things that stand out, but for me, that central kind of line was making connections. So,
making sure that faculty knew just as much about the Cross-Cultural Center and the social justice
centers as staff did. That other offices did, that orientation did. And that we could start to be seen as a
space where everyone was welcome. And that was really important to me. Again, back to that sense of, I
started my career in social justice because I didn't feel like I belonged. And so, I wanted to continue to
create opportunities and spaces where people felt like they could belong and connect no matter where
they quote unquote were, right? On their own social justice journey. So, we did a trivia program and
that came directly from (when) a student and I went to a conference. We heard a speaker talk about this
idea of history and people of color having this history that's there, but it's totally, it's unknown in the
U.S. (United States of America). When you, when you ask folks, you know U.S. history, anything about
U.S. history, it's like this laundry list and it's all focused on the White center, right?
And so, we were like, what would this, what would it look like if we started to actually know other kind,
other histories that are not this list that everyone quote unquote knows and learns. Can we focus
outside of the center? And so we did, we developed a (laughs), a multicultural trivia program. Again, it
was meant as a thing of like, how can we connect? If folks don't want to come together, go to a Social
Justice Summit for three days, that's not their thing, but they wanna do some trivia. Let's go it, let's do
it. Right? So just trying to meet people in the space that they want to be in, or that's intriguing to them.
And we did, we had some folks that came to trivia but never came to anything else. And that is totally
fine because what we gained from that is someone who's still connected, still saying, “Oh this is
important to learn. I'm excited to learn this because I'm showing up. And I have pizza, both.” (laughs) I
think sometimes we, like in my profession in higher ed, when I was working in higher ed, we focus on
the food a lot, a lot, a lot. And I actually think that the program stood on its own without pizza because
people still participated. They didn't just show up for pizza and sit there and eat their pizza. They came,
they got some pizza, they participated in the program. And really got into it (laughs). And we had zero
prizes. It was a clap, like, “Yay, team four, you did it! You were the winners.” That's it. That's all you got.
So it was really just like the experience of being there, coming together, having this fun, fun lunch.
Which was very cool.
De Maria: Very cool. So, just my takeaway from hearing about those programs, with regards to the
summit in particular, it sounds like you were making a big impact on an issue that was more of a
qualitative nature or difficult to quantify. And that also kind of shines through with the other examples
of Cafe La Paz as well as those, that trivia program. In our introductory call, you also mentioned to me
the importance of the student staff kind of being the lifeblood of the organization and providing
tremendous assistance to you in a leadership position as well as other leaders. So, I just wanted to know
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about some of the ways that you empowered your student staff, and maybe what that experience was
like.
Sheikh-Arvizu: Oh, I loved working with students. You know, my approach to empowering my staff was
to listen. It was to open up the opportunity for them to think and explore and discuss and I always
consider myself a yes person. I really like ideas. I love to see how an idea could turn into something real.
And so, I really just encourage my staff to do the same. There are some moments with student staff that
really stand out to me and I hope that folks will be okay (with) me talking about them. But having a staff
member, this is prior to them being a staff member, 'cause it was an interview. Actually I have two
interview moments that really stand out to me. But one was with a staff member in his interview and
two of us interviewed him. We asked the questions and this student really struggled with the language.
Was you know, (unclear) defining and using terms that we generally feel like is important. However, he
had amazing experiences (and) connections. He was making these connections but did not have the
terminology. So, it was like you know, the other person who did the interview was like, “I don't know,
they don't seem like a good fit. They don't have this knowledge.” And I'm like, “Yes, yes. They have the
knowledge. They have the knowledge because let's look back at all of these examples they were able to
give. They are on point, they get it.” And I think that's what a lot of students are experiencing. They
understand what's going on. They have the experiences and we can help put some of those words
together. That's not a problem in my mind. And so, when I made the offer to this student, I think it was a
little bit of a surprise 'cause I don't think that they thought they had a good interview. Because all things
considered they didn't (laugh)! You know, like they stumbled through questions, all of that stuff.
But, I think for me it was just being able to see something and then telling them, telling students like,
“Hey, I see this in you. You talked about this. Tell me more about it. You mentioned this. Tell me more
about that.” And just opening that space to get to know them, get to understand some of their
experiences and what they wanted to do with that or how they wanted to make an impact. The other
thing that I tried to do right away was make sure that all of the student staff, and if we had interns,
anyone, anyone who was like working in some way, shape or form for the Cross-Cultural Center to open
up opportunities for them to be elsewhere on campus, on committees. I had students chair committees
and I had supervisors who were really nervous about that. And at times I was nervous about that too.
But I felt like, “Okay, if folks are nervous about that, let's explore what the nervousness is about and also
let's ensure that whatever they're nervous about isn't gonna happen. And even if it does, it's okay.” But
just coming from the perspective of like, I just wanted to open up opportunities for students to be seen,
to be heard, to have a voice, to lead. And essentially that's it. Because I really like ideas. We also shifted
to a new space (laughs) during my tenure. And so, with in that move it allowed us the opportunity to
say, “Oh, let's look around. What is this new space we're in? What could it be?” And it really was
working with them on defining what it could be. And so, I think when they experienced that, what their
thoughts were, their ideas mattered, and we-- and they could actually see it happen. Then to me they
felt empowered to do more, to do differently, to take risks to also see themselves as leaders. And that,
to me was the point.
De Maria: That's very cool. (both laugh). Kind of going off of that, I mean, obviously we've been talking
about your experience at the Cross-Cultural Center in depth. But in your own opinion, or in your own
words, what was your favorite memory?
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Sheikh-Arvizu: Favorite memory? Well, you know, I left-- there's two and one is (a) very tiny moment,
but it has significance to me. And one feels like a big thing. I was driving home after the first Social
Justice Summit. I'm a complete introvert. So being with people, I have to focus a lot of attention and
energy to really be present. And I was just at a three-day retreat with, you know, fifty people (laughs).
So, I'm driving home by myself. I have the windows rolled down, no music because I cannot handle more
like input after the weekend. That I was like thinking and saying to myself in my quiet car, “That was
amazing! And there's so much we could do with this program in the future.” Like my, I know that I'm
sharing a memory that was by myself, but it really wasn't the memory of me being by myself. It was the
memory of this amazing program and the way that we as staff were able to shift in the moment based
on what we saw, what we ha-- what happened, and the flexibility there. And then the students in
watching their transformation in just three days of you know, there was an evaluation that I had read
before I left as well. And it was like, “I did not believe. I did not believe that you were gonna pull this
off!” Right? Like, that's the beginning of the evaluation. Like, I'm sitting in session, I was sitting in session
one and I didn't think it was gonna go anywhere. And then they continued to write, and then this
happened and this happened and this happened and this was a great experience. And I was like, wow!
To both be able to write like this criticism of like, I didn't think this was gonna go well, to this really
changed my perspective. Was (laughs) it was a great moment kind of collectively, individually. I feel like
I'm not doing a very good job actually expressing what I was feeling about this, very awesome moment.
But, that's where it was. I was like literally in my car, just processing this entire, the entire weekend in
the moment. But then, in the processing also feeling, “Wow, I have so much energy and I have so much,
there's so much more we could give to this program. There's more we can do.” And being excited to do
that, even though it was gonna be a year later (laughs).
And then another moment was small, like I said. Totally different person (laughs) interviewing, getting
ready to interview, because they wanted to work for the Cross-Cultural Center. And he walks in, he has a
shirt, a tie, and his baseball hat, which he always wore. And I was like, okay, this is awesome. I'm
interviewing him. Well, later I find out that his peers coached him on how to interview. And that for me
was the moment of like, it's a great memory because the community was taking care of one another. He
was ready to walk in, in like a t-shirt that he wears every single day, which really, in a lot of spaces that's
okay. But his peers were saying, “No, you gotta step this up. You know, this is an interview. It's different,
it's different than just walking into the Cross-Cultural Center every day.” And at the same time, he
wanted to be himself cause they were encouraging him not to wear his hat, but he kept his hat on. That
was part of him. Someone else gave him the tie, right? Like this was literally all (laughs), the community
was caring for one another in that moment. And so, I was just so proud of folks coming together and I
was proud of him for keeping his identity as part of something that he wanted to be present at the
interview. Right? So, I don't know, those were my two moments of like, it, they just really stood out for
very different reasons. (laughs)
De Maria: No, I completely get that. And I think, another challenge that we seem to be getting back to is
the quantitative versus qualitative issue. Especially with subjects as profound as this, where people
might not be represented. So sometimes that qualitative evidence is also very powerful to see in action.
So that's super cool. Next, I wanted to, and again, previously you described your experience at the
Cross-Cultural Center as kind of being the spark that fueled the rest of your career. So, this is again kind
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of like an abstract question, but I wanted to know just how the Cross-Cultural Center helped you
develop as a professional and further that journey?
Sheikh-Arvizu: That's a great question. And also, I love abstract questions. (laughs) For me, I think part of
me felt like I couldn't do it, be in that position, oversee and manage the Cross-Cultural Center. Because I
had never worked in a Cross-Cultural Center before. And I had never been part of a student organization
before (laughs). Particularly as it relates to, as it related to my identity. And so, part of me felt like, I
don't know like I'm doing this work, but it kind of feels like I'm not doing this work. And at the same
time, I also knew in my gut I could. It was just like fighting with my own perception of how other people
might have perceived me, right? All in my head, but also all in my heart, right? Like, my experience as a
person, as a human being, as a mixed-race person, as a queer person. I'm sitting in all these spaces
where it's like, I don't often hear that I belong and I can do it. I could do this, I could do this thing that
maybe it doesn't seem I'm really qualified for. And so, what the spark was, was I feel like I sort of came
into my own power of I can do this and I don't have to be the center. I never really connected with this
sense of a leader is someone at the front. They're taking the podium, they have the microphone, they
can be seen, they are the first on the list for people to invite. Like I wasn't, I didn't subscribe to that kind
of leadership.
And so, I felt I could do my kind of leadership and I could also see other people's kind of leadership and
say, “Do it! Do your kind of leadership, do it your way.” And I didn't feel I had to prove myself and say, “I
am the center stage. This is my program!” No, it wasn't (laughs). I literally did not set structures like that
where I was the one leading the program. I was the center. It really was let's do this together, or let me
support you (laughs). It's not mine, it's yours. This is your idea. You carry it. Let's figure out how to do it.
And, I think that what I learned was I could have a vision. I did have a vision for the Cross-Cultural Center
and I could have that vision with other people. And I, that was really, really revolutionary to me that I
could have a vision and we could have a shared vision together. And it didn't have to be so
individualized. That does not seem like the rest of the culture around me, that does not seem like what
it means to be in American society. And so I really held onto that. I still hold onto that, that sense of like,
it's better when we do it together. It's better when we have a vision for this together. It's better when
we can see our differences and learn what that means. Learn why things matter differently. Learn to
take on perspectives that are different from you. So, it felt like I learned a lot during that process. It felt
like I set a foundation for myself professionally, not just for that space, the Cross-Cultural Center as a
space, as a community and things like that. I felt like I wanted to live what I said my values were. And
that was the place that I feel like my alignment was really, really close.
De Maria: Very, very cool. Going off of that line of questioning just about you as a professional, and kind
of what you took from the experience, I know that you're currently working with OC (Orange County)
Human Relations (Commission) on several projects. So, I just wanted to know how your experiences
with Cross-Cultural Center influenced the programs that you're working on currently. And maybe what
some of those programs are (both laugh).
Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. Well, so I am a training specialist in Orange County Human Relations, (laughs). By
the time this oral history project is done, we likely will have a different name as an organization (laughs).
Okay. So it'll be a little bit obsolete, but that's okay. It is what it is. I, and I just started in my role. I was in
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a different role prior. So, some things that I've done in the organization that I feel like do have a
connection to Cal State San Marcos, and working at the Cross- Cultural Center; I'm training and I'm
coaching folks on how to align who you say you are and how you do that work, right? So, we say
diversity and equity and inclusion and belonging are all important to us and are important to us in our
organization, are important to us in our school, our school district, or in our community? Okay! How do
you do that? What does that look like? How do you measure that? Right? So, I feel like I asked very
pointed questions right then like boom, boom, boom, right? And lots of times it's more gentle. It's, and
also lots of times it's a lot of different kinds of questions. So, what I feel like is the connection for me,
from (CSU) San Marcos is this idea of well, when you have a vision (you) have to be able to figure out
how to put things in place, right? So, if we have the vision of, living in a community that values equity
and enacts, that is an equitable place, then we need to do some hard work. And sometimes that hard
work could be training, sometimes that hard work could be conversations and dialogues. Sometimes
that hard work is assessing how hate and hate incidents and crimes are impacting our community.
And that's all work that I feel like I'm touching or part of directly at Orange County Human Relations.
And pulling community together I think is kind of the other theme. On a college campus community is,
tends to be the college community or the community of students in particular. So, it's like this little
bubble of, you know, built-in community. But working at Orange County Human Relations, that is not
just built in. And, you know: timing, availability, interest, money, all of that. Funding, I should say, more
than money. Right, all of that plays a role. And so, but still figuring out how do we come together and
have a common vision. Literally just went through with a group on writing a mission statement (laughs).
So, you know, creating that vision and also laying out how do we do this? This is who we say we are,
how do we do it?
De Maria: Very, very cool. I do have a few more questions left. And all of them are more about sort of
the future of the Cross-Cultural Center and possibly social justice in general. But looking ahead, what
aspirations do you have for future students who interact with the Cross-Cultural Center? Want to get
involved?
Sheikh-Arvizu: I feel like I would just want students to, to try it out. I mean community is really what we
make it to be. And it's a we. So, if as a person, if right, if you're seeking community wherever you are, is
where community can be. And it means, and it means stepping in, it means taking a risk. It means saying
hi. It means going to a program. It means just seeing yourself there. That's all very abstract (laughs), but
I think, you know, there's lots of places to connect and find community. You can connect and find
community in the chem lab that you're working in, right? Or researching in or studying in. And, and I
think for me, the Cross-Cultural Center is a different kind of community in that you can kind of go back
and forth between exploring common interests and activities and also talking about how oppression,
racism, sexism, identity, politics, how that plays a role in your life. And feel like oh, actually these other
folks get it. I don't have to explain that much. And they're here with me for me. And, and we can eat
fries together. It just spans so many different kinds of ways to connect. And I think, you know, if you're
looking for multiple ways to connect, it's a great way, it's a great space! I would say any identity-based
space is a great space cause it's like the opportunity to feel connected to other people, to other
identities, to your own identity. And also potentially other things like music, food, we can go play sports
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together, you know, whatever that is. Yeah, I think that everyone needs, that needs to feel a sense of
validation. And for me, I think identity spaces, social justice spaces are spaces where that can happen.
De Maria: I think that's beautiful.
Sheikh-Arvizu: Are you okay? You this like—(interruption)
De Maria: I'm complete. I'm completely fine.
Sheikh-Arvizu: Okay.
De Maria: Just very, very profound experiences that you're sharing with me that I really appreciate.
De Maria: So, regarding my next line of questioning, I also wanted to ask you about what communities
you feel might be currently underrepresented on our campus, or possibly bringing some attention to
some underrepresented communities that you're currently working with.
Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah. Ooh, great question. I cannot possibly answer that question (laughs), because I'm
not there and I have not looked, I've not really walked on campus. I haven't looked at any demographics
at all again, like that like I can look at paper, I can look at numbers. However, I think that your last add in
there to the question, like populations that I'm also working with you know. I think that... I, last year was
charged with writing our hate crime report for the on behalf of the county and, something that I feel like
were like central communities that were really impacted. And I personally feel like in the report, but I'm
sure out of the report, beyond the report, the depth is much greater and could never be captured in a
report. It was the Black community; so small, percentage wise, right? In the county. And I'm in Orange
County right now so, the Black population is about two, sometimes three percent of the whole
population of Orange County.
But the number of hate incidents and crimes that are because of Black hate, right? Is completely
disproportionate, is like exponentially disproportionate. And so really focusing on seeing that
community other communities as well. I feel like numbers keep rising for anti-Asian hate and Latinx
hate. I feel like numbers... numbers, incidents, experiences, uh, like a little snippet of like media also
capturing this rise also in numbers and gravity of anti-LGBTQ hate, and anti-Semitic hate and like how
that, that actually as a center for lots of different kinds of hate, kind of like, it looks like what it looks like
to the eye. And folks maybe particularly not in the Jewish community where, it's like you could see a
swastika and also the n-word both at the same time, right? Graffiti somewhere and it's like, so is that
anti-Semitic? Is that anti-black? Like what is that? Whew. And unpacking that is like so much I think for
folks, I don't think it's so much for the Black community or the Jewish community, or the Black Jewish
community both, right? To unpack. But I think for a lot of other folks it's like, “What kind of hate is that?
How do we describe it? Why? Why is this, what is this connection?” But it's really important that we do
unpack it, we do explore it, we do start to understand what that means and why, and how it's
progressing. It really scares me that we are in a time of, where in the country, that history is being
removed, that literally people's histories are being removed, people's existence are being removed from
curriculum. And that's really scary to me. That did not exactly answer your question, but I think for me
there was a connection there.
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De Maria: It did answer my question very thoroughly actually. So thank you. And I've got two more
questions left to kind of wrap up the interview. But first I just wanted to ask you what direction you
think the Cross-Cultural Center should grow in?
Sheikh-Arvizu: Oh, also one that I do not feel equipped. So I was only there for like, two and a half years?
Pretty small. And there, both on campus and with the Cross-Cultural Center, the Cross-Cultural Center is
in a different space even than it was when I was there. I was there for two spaces and I was there to
advocate for how much physical space the next Cross-Cultural Center should occupy. So, it is now in that
space and now there are more identity spaces, more cultural spaces and centers. And for me, I think
with the work that I'm doing now, it still has a collaborative communal coming together need.
And I would hope that that's what's happening now too, for the Cross-Cultural Center, right? But there,
that the Cross-Cultural Center, the students, the staff, are working with other centers and other spaces
and other student organizations and there's connections. That's what I, that's what I, I don't know,
future, future (laughs). But I think it's really important to come together. I think it's also really important
to make statements, so people know that they're supported. And I think that this is not necessarily just
about the Cross-Cultural Center specific space or leadership there; it's like a broader everywhere that
we look to leaders in positional, with positional power, specifically with titles, right? Like presidents, vice
presidents, you know, whatever the titles are directors. We look to them, we expect that, we expect to
hear from them when something affects the community. And I would encourage that to happen. Right?
The-- I am not criticizing anything at all. I'm just saying it should happen, period. If it is awesome,
because hopefully what that means is that students feel like they do belong and there's, there's
connection there. And they're safe. They're safe in who they are. They're safe in their identity, they're
safe to be and belong. And so that I think is important. To take a stand, to say something, right? To say,
“We care to say this is not okay here.” If there is hate or if there is, and I say “if,” and really I know that it
happens. It's there. It is there, it's everywhere. So yeah, just making sure people feel like they matter,
individuals and communities.
De Maria: Totally. And wrapping things up, again you continuously kind of reference this process of
learning, which is an extremely important part of understanding social justice and also participating in it.
Whether that's learning about somebody else's culture, learning how to communicate about someone
else's culture to them, or learning how to ultimately take a stand and become a voice in your
community. With that being said, if someone were interested in pursuing a career in social justice much
like yourself, what tips would you give them?
Sheikh-Arvizu: Wow. I think for me, having that sort of like home-base community or people is really
important. Folks that you can say, “Hey, this is happening and I don't get it, or I feel like I messed up,” or
“What am I missing?” It's really important to have those people in your life! Particularly doing social
justice work, because social justice work is hard and it is literally every day. It could be your, the, you
know, quote unquote nine to five, like what you're doing during the day, and then you go pick up some
dinner and somehow there's still some like quote unquote “social justice work” that needs to be done
there (laughs). So it doesn't necessarily, there's not like a timeline like, oh, it's five o'clock, I'm not doing
this work anymore. So I think to like have, have your people, whoever those people are, people that you
can count on, people that can support you, people that can listen, people that can challenge you, people
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that can show you a different perspective. And those people should not look like you. Not all of them,
maybe some of them. They should-- and when I say look like you, I don't exactly just mean look like you,
I mean look like you, think like you, have the same identity markers as you do, or if not like you like one
kind of person, right? And to kind of do that inventory and see like what perspectives am I missing in my
own life, in my professional life. I think don't be scared (laughs). Don't be scared to be the learner as
much as the teacher or trainer or coach. Sometimes I feel like my career was like poking a stick. I was
like, look at this (laughs, waves imaginary stick in air), right? Like, look at this thing, what's happening?
And I wanted people to see, and you know what? There was certainly a place for that. There's a place for
that in my career. I felt like the organization, you know, needed that at the time or different
organizations, more than one, right? Needed to see what was happening! And I, what I appreciate now
in my career too, and where I am, is that other folks can do that. I can still do that and it might look and
sound a little bit different than it did when I was in my early career (laughs), in my career at Cal State
San Marcos, where I could say, “Look at this! This is a problem!” And, or I could hear it from a student, I
could say, “Then say that, right?” Like, you go do it. “Say that somewhere. Uh, your voice is powerful.”
So I think like those lessons I, for someone who wants to get to get into social justice or stay, it doesn't
mean you're not in a social justice like job career focus already, is to know your way, right?
Know your power, find your power, explore it, see, you know, what works where. And it might be
different tactics in different places, and I think it's important to test it out and to lean into other people,
to um, you know, see if they could be more effective or more effective with you together. I think too
that, you know, for a lot of folks it won't feel like social justice is the center of your work. It won't! You
might be doing something else. It doesn't mean that you have to discard social justice or the idea or goal
of equity. You don't have to toss it away. It can still be part of your work. There's a lot of like individual
things that you can do. There's a lot of cultural things that you can do that, where it can still be central
to the way you think about your work, to the way you approach your work, to the way you approach
outside of the workplace.
I'm now a parent. The way you approach parenting to the way (laugh). Like, I know for me, like what a
mind-shift of like, oh, I value this in my work and in my life, but now I have a young human and they are
doing things I did not expect! But am I doing things that I didn't expect with my values in social justice
and equity with my values in listening and opening up space? Whew. That's hard (laughs). And it's hard, I
know I'm framing it in this parent space, but also it's hard when you're in other workplaces again, where
social justice might not be the center of the work that you're doing, but it's like, I'm in this organization
and like I don't feel like I'm showing up as mys-- As the self I want to or I'm not being supported.
Sometimes that means it's okay to leave. It is okay to leave! It's also okay to stay and challenge if that's
what you have the capacity for. And you should, if you have the capacity for that or that's what drives
you, then do it. Do it that way. If you do not have the capacity or it is a toxic environment, it is okay to
leave. And continue your social justice work somewhere else in another space. It can look different. It's
okay (laughs). It's not like you don't have to constantly struggle all the time or feel like you don't belong,
or that you don't matter at all in a space that's not-- I mean those organizations need to change and do
better and do different, but it doesn't mean that you have to be the, you don't have to bear the brunt of
that work that they're not really ready to do.
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I was all over the place with that (laughs), but the, the, the thought of a career in social justice is, like...
my thought before my career began in social justice is very different than what my career has been. And
so that's where I feel like I have a lot of different like, thoughts of what that can mean for folks. And it
can be so different based on the person and your identities and the institutions that you are in. Right?
And who even is your network of people, or what's needed in the organ-- in different organizations. I
thought I was a great fit for other jobs. I was not. I was not selected. There were other people out there
who are doing this work, so also connect. It's okay! They're, they wanna do this work too. They're
qualified to do this work. Like, so that sense of like leaving competition out. I dunno. Or putting it in
check.
De Maria: Very, very cool. I think based on those tips as well as the other information you shared with
me, you're an excellent resource for someone who's interested in going into the social justice field. So I
really appreciate you taking time out today, Sara, and speak to me about your involvement in the CrossCultural Center as well as some of the work that you're doing now. And I think this is gonna be a great
resource for anyone trying to learn more about social justice initiatives in their community and how to
get involved as well as the history of the Cross-Cultural Center itself. So just wanted to thank you again
for taking time out to speak to me about this. This has been a very, very special, special interview.
Sheikh-Arvizu: Of course. And I'm here, I'm still here. We have Zoom, we have phone calls, we have,
there's so many ways to connect. So yes, if I'm a resource for someone that's listening or watching
(laughs) in the future, but you wanna make a connection that's open, like that's available too, right? And
I, and I'm pretty sure that, that, I hope, and I'm sure it will stand for other folks that are part of this
project and that's why we wanna be part of this project, right? Like not just for the history component,
but the future component, which is important.
De Maria: Absolutely. Well, we obviously appreciate it. Again, thank you for your time and yeah, I know
this isn't the end of your journey. So, (I’m) very excited to see what else you go on to do in your career
and what other the communities you’ll impact.
Sheikh-Arvizu: Yeah, thank you Michael. Thank you. And for inviting me to be part of this.
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�
Dublin Core
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Transcripts
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Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
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Sheikh-Arvizu, Sara. Interview transcript March 30, 2023.
Description
An account of the resource
Sara Sheikh-Arvizu was Assistant Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at California State University San Marcos from 2008 to 2011. In this interview, Sara discusses her roles at CSUSM and the various programs she initiated or facilitated. Sara also briefly discusses her current work with Orange County Human Relations.
This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund.
Creator
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Sara Sheikh-Arvizu
Contributor
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Michael De Maria
Aaron Williams
Date
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2023-03-30
Subject
The topic of the resource
California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
Chapman University
Civil rights
Education, Higher
LGBTQ+ activism
LGBTQ+ life
Orange County Human Relations Commission (Orange County, Calif.)
Coverage
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Orange County (Calif.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Sara Sheikh-Arvizu
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<a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a>
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text
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Shiekh-ArvizuSara_DeMariaMichael_2023-03-30
Activists and activism
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
LGBTQIA+ experience
Women's experience
-
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Oral Histories
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Tanis Brown
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Sharon Jenkins
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JenkinsSharon_BrownTanis_2023-02-02_access.xml
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5.4 Jenkins, Sharon. Interview, February 2, 2023 SC027-32 0:34:26 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos Local government -- California -- San Marcos Public administration -- California -- San Marcos School boards -- California -- San Marcos Sharon Jenkins Tanis Brown mp4 JenkinsSharon_BrownTanis_2023-02-02_access.mp4 1:|18(10)|47(8)|69(7)|85(1)|96(5)|114(2)|124(6)|156(2)|167(1)|176(13)|199(9)|222(2)|231(9)|245(8)|253(6)|267(7)|276(7)|285(6)|296(3)|306(11)|318(1)|329(6)|342(11)|351(16)|370(4)|379(10)|391(11)|405(8)|418(11)|428(1)|438(5)|448(14)|473(5)|483(2) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2fbd5c479eb53fc879b7df28dcab0e80.mp4 Other video English 0 Childhood/ Moving to San Marcos, CA Sharon Jenkins briefly discusses her early childhood in Massachusetts before moving to San Marcos, CA. She grew up in Quincy, MA as a young child before her family moved to Scituate, MA. Her family lived in Scituate until 1971, when they purchased a home in Lake San Marcos. Jenkins explains that her father was a pilot and commuted to Los Angeles, CA for work. Jenkins was a high school freshman when they first arrived to San Marcos and she attended San Marcos High School. She explains that San Marcos High School was only ten years old at the time, and was a small school in the 1970s. She estimates that only two hundred students were in her graduating class. Jenkins also recalls making life-long friends in high school. High school ; Lake San Marcos (Calif.) ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Quincy (Mass.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos High School ; School ; Scituate (Mass.) ; Small community ; Small town ; Students 256 The community of San Marcos, CA Sharon Jenkins describes the new community of San Marcos during the 1970s. As a new student, her teachers encouraged her parents to sign her up for sports teams and other activities, which is how Jenkins became more active in the San Marcos community. She describes feeling connected to the community by socializing with friends at Friday night football games. Jenkins also explains that playing golf was a popular activity in Lake San Marcos. Football games ; Golfl ; High school ; Lake San Marcos (Calif.) ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos High School ; School ; Small community ; Small town ; Students ; Tennis 480 College education Sharon Jenkins recounts her busy life as a college student. After graduating from San Marcos High School, she enrolled in Palomar College and then transferred to San Diego State University (SDSU). Jenkins majored in business and administration in college. Jenkins also worked throughout her college career, working part-time while attending Palomar College, and then working full-time after transferring to SDSU. She explains that she took night classes when attending SDSU, and she would be fortunate if she made it from San Marcos to SDSU within a thirty-minute commute. She explains that her commutes were usually a much more difficult drive due to the San Diego traffic—even during the 1970s. Business and administration ; Commute ; Commuting ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Palomar College ; San Diego freeways ; San Diego State Univeristy ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Students ; Traffic 700 Career in accounting and real estate Sharon Jenkins describes her career in accounting and real estate. She explains that she began working at an accounting firm part-time the summer after her junior year in high school, and continued working at the firm throughout her education at Palomar College. Jenkins then accepted an internship at IBM in San Diego and worked there for a year while in college, before accepting a full-time position at the company. She stayed at IBM until the early 1990s before leaving the position and becoming a homemaker. Jenkins explains that she later transitioned to the field of real estate after her second daughter graduated from high school. At the time of the interview’s recording, Jenkins has worked in real estate for seventeen years. Accounting ; Accounting firms ; Homemaker ; IBM ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Parenthood ; Real estate ; Realtor ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) 966 Involvement in the San Marcos school board Sharon Jenkins recounts her involvement in the local school district of San Marcos. She first became involved in the local parent groups, parent organizations, and the 1996 School Board Bond effort, which she co-chaired with two other individuals. She then joined the school board, and was an active member from 1998 to 2012. Jenkins also reflects on how she has seen the San Marcos school district change over the years. When she first joined the school board, eight to ten thousand students were enrolled in the district, and at the time of the interview’s recording, she explains that approximately twenty thousand are now enrolled. She also explains that the school board also has to tackle many issues, such as financial issues due to the lack of state funding. Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; School ; School board ; School bonds ; School district ; Small community ; Small town ; State funding ; Students 1239 Reflections on being in leadership Sharon Jenkins reflects on being in a leadership position. She explains that she enjoys working with her colleagues on the school board and its staff. She continues that San Marcos is has a great staff and the school board has its best intentions in mind for its students. She also found the opening of new schools and high school graduations to be a very memorable experiences while in the position. Decision making in leadership ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; School ; School board ; Small community ; Small town ; Staff ; Students 1374 Joining the city council Sharon Jenkins discusses her campaign to join the city council in 2012 and the lessons she learned on the campaign trail. She also discusses the differences between working on the city council and in the school district. She notes that the school district was more complex and dealt with a plethora of issues when compared with the city council. She also explains that the school district and city council both had different needs to which needed attending. City council ; City council campaign ; City council election ; City council representative ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos city council ; School board ; School district ; Small community ; Small town ; Students 1628 The value of the city council for the community Sharon Jenkins reflects on the city council’s value to the community of San Marcos. She explains that the city council does its best to listen to its residents and push for local control. She expresses frustration over state and federal government asserting themselves into local governmental matters. Jenkins is also passionate about continuing efforts to fix and expand infrastructure in the city. Bridges ; City council ; City council representative ; Federal government ; Funding ; Infrastructure ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Roads ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos city council ; Small community ; Small town ; State government ; Traffic 1813 Final thoughts/Closing of interview Sharon Jenkins concludes the interview by discussing the importance of reaching out to others, whether that being staying in contact with friends in the community or reaching out to individuals in other districts and listening to them and responding to their questions. City council ; City council representative ; Colleagues ; Family ; Friends ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Representation in small districts ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Small community ; Small town ; Staying connected Oral history Sharon Jenkins was born in Quincy, Massachusetts, grew up in Scituate, Mass., and moved to Lake San Marcos, California in 1971 where she attended San Marcos High School. She was a business major in college ; after college she worked in the accounting profession for 15 years. Her involvement as a parent volunteer led her to run for San Marcos City School Board where Jenkins served for 14 years. Jenkins was elected to San Marcos City Council in 2012 and will complete her final term in 2024. She is also a Realtor. The interview focuses primarily on her high school years and her experiences serving on San Marcos' School Board and City Council. Tanis Brown: Okay. So, today is February 2nd, 2023, and this is a part of the North County Oral History Initiative. My name is Tanis Brown, and today I will be interviewing Sharon Jenkins. So, hi Sharon. Thanks very much for coming in today. You and I have been friends for a long time, but there are some things about you that I don' ; t really know. So, I' ; d like to find out a little bit more about your San Marcos story. Sharon Jenkins: Right. Thanks for having me, Tanis. This--I' ; m excited you' ; re doing this. Brown: Good. Well, I' ; d like to start from the beginning. Where were you born, Sharon? Jenkins: I was born in Quincy, Massachusetts-- Brown: Oh my gosh. Jenkins: --and I moved from Quincy when I was very young. I don' ; t even know how young, less than five. And I moved to Scituate, Massachusetts. And I lived there until 1971, when we moved to San Marcos. Brown: Okay. So, you came to San Marcos in 1971, and would you still have been going to school at that time? Jenkins: So, yes. I started San Marcos High School in 1971 as a freshman. Brown: Okay. And the school was just ten years old at that time, so-- Jenkins: Yes. Brown: --it was a new school. Jenkins: Yes, very small. Brown: How many students in the--in the graduating class, Sharon? Jenkins: So, I don' ; t remember the number. I would guess maybe less than two hundred. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: I know when we graduated, we could sit on the visitor' ; s side of the bleachers in the old gym. Brown: (chuckles) Jenkins: So, that' ; s how small we were. Brown: Okay. Did you have a football team and everything, and-- Jenkins: We had a football team, yes, yes. Brown: All right. So, any changes between the east coast and coming to the west coast? Jenkins: I think I was so young that I probably didn' ; t understand what those changes were. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: Um, I remembered it--I remembered feeling like it was very, um, --things were very scattered here, and--and not very busy. Brown: Oh, compared to the east coast. Jenkins: Right, right. Brown: Interesting. Um, so other than changing coasts, do you have any other childhood memories that stick out in your mind that maybe you carry forward today, or any traits about yourself? Jenkins: I would say, as far as high school and that era, um, making--making friends that some of them I still have as friends today. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: San Marcos was very small back then. So, um, there was a lot of people connected and, even though we' ; re much larger today, a lot of those connections are still in place. When I moved here there were, I believe, less than 10,000 people in San Marcos. Brown: Wow. That' ; s so cool. And you actually moved to Lake San Marcos when you first came here? Jenkins: Yes, I did. I moved to Lake San Marcos. Um, that' ; s where my parents purchased a house. And my dad was a pilot and commuted to L.A. when he needed to fly. And, um, he decided on Lake San Marcos because he felt that it was such a great, safe community. And he had a friend in Escondido who told him that San Marcos had a new high school and had a very good reputation. So, that' ; s another reason why he--he picked San Marcos. Brown: Okay. Oh, that' ; s interesting. So, Lake San Marcos was kind of an entity unto itself when it was first constructed and was highly touted as a--a kind of upscale community. Did you--did you notice any of that growing up in terms of--of students or residents of San Marcos? Did you always feel yourself a part of the community of San Marcos? Jenkins: Yes, always. So, when I moved there, as I look back, I think there were less than five children living in Lake San Marcos, because it was a retirement community back then. And most of the homes that are there today were not there. It was m--majority was empty lots that homes hadn' ; t been constructed yet-- Brown: Okay Jenkins: --um, along the streets. (nods her head) Brown: Okay. Jenkins: So, I think the big thing I noticed, um, was very few--in fact, I don' ; t eve--I think I only knew one or two--other kids that lived there, but always felt it was a part of San Marcos to me. (nods her head again) Brown: Okay. That' ; s great. Okay. So, just in terms of the overall community of San Marcos back in 1971 and during your high school years, wha--what were the big deals? What was--what was the city like at that time for you growing up? Jenkins: Um, I was--since I was new to the community--I didn' ; t have some of the connections that many of the other kids had that had been through school from however young. Um, so I think some of the connections were um, um, you know, as you made friends, hanging out with those friends, I remember a teacher encouraged my mom, " ; Get her involved in something." ; And I think I was on the tennis team for a year. (chuckles) Um, never play tennis. But the whole thing was, you know, the staff at that time was to get kids involved in--in things. Um, Friday night football was a big deal back then and um, um, just hanging out with whatever friends you had. Brown: Mm-hmm. So, in the community, though, did your parents get involved in the community? Were they involved in Kiwanis and Rotary and that kind of thing? Jenkins: No. Brown: Were those organizations available at that time, or-- Jenkins: I don' ; t know. I s--assume so. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: No. They were involved in playing golf. (laughs) Brown: Okay. Okay. And that was a big thing in Lake San Marcos-- Jenkins: Yes! Brown: --to play golf. They had, what, an executive course? Jenkins: I don' ; t think they had the executive course then. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: But they did have the big course, and I' ; m sure that was one of the reasons why my dad selected there, too, because they both played golf. Brown: All right. Jenkins: And I played golf too. My dad taught me--started to teach me, um, when I was about nine. And, um--and so I would go out and play. There was a couple of people--a couple kids at that time, and another gal and I would go out and play periodically. Brown: Okay. So, today San Marcos is fairly well-known for its colleges. We have Palomar Community College and Cal State San Marcos. After graduating from high school, did--did you--you might not of even had those opportunities, although Palomar, I think, was here at that point in time. Where--what did you do after high school, after graduating from high school? Jenkins: So, I graduated from high school and went to Palomar College because it had such a great reputation back then as it does now. I went to Palomar, and then, um, transferred to San Diego State. But it was right around the time--actually, I think that I was going on campus to San Diego, and then as I got closer to finishing--it took me much longer than two years, because I worked. But, as I got closer to finishing, they started to have some remote classes in North County, and I think a couple of classes I went to--one was in the--a middle school in Vista, on a Saturday, I think, and another one was in, um, a business class from an--off of Furniture Row. So, San Diego--so, Cal State San Marcos wasn' ; t here, but they had started to expand some opportunities for the No--North County kids. So, it wasn' ; t a lot of classes, but it was just enough that you could take a couple and not have to commute to San Diego. Brown: All right. Great. So, you finished up at--at San Diego State, and did you have a vocation or an avocation in mind, um, while you were going to college? Jenkins: Business. Brown: Business. Jenkins: Yes. I focused on business administration and accounting at the time. Brown: Okay. And you said you were--you worked your way through college? You were working while you were going to college. Jenkins: I worked while I went to college. I ended up, um--after I left Palomar--I always worked part-time. After I left Palomar, I think I might have started to work full-time and then I took classes at night, and would commute down to San Diego State at night, a couple of nights a week. Brown: Oh. So, you had a busy life, even back then. Jenkins: Yes. Brown: (laughs) Wow, that' ; s great. So, commuting to school--what was driving to San Diego State from San Marcos like? What--how--what was the timeframe? Jenkins: So, I always thought it was a good, um, a good travel time if I could do it in about thirty minutes. (both of them chuckle) Most of the time it was more than that. But it depended, you know. If it was a class that ended at nine o' ; clock, then you could pretty much get home within thirty minutes or so. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: But there definitely were times of the day when it was more difficult to get there, even back then! That would have been in the, um, let' ; s see, probably the late seventies. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: So. And the freeways weren' ; t as big as they are today. Brown: Right. Jenkins: But we didn' ; t have as many cars back then. Brown: Okay. So, then after graduation did you look for employment in, locally, or interested in going someplace else? Jenkins: So, while I was in high school, my first job during high school after my sophomore year was working at Taco Bell in Escondido. And then--um, and then I started my junior year and then I was an aide for one of the high school counselors and he had a neighbor who had a business in Escondido. And he said, " ; Sharon, you--this--my neighbor is looking for some work. Why don' ; t you go see if they could--if, you know--apply for a job there." ; And that was the summer after my junior year. So, I worked the summer after my junior year at the company, and then when my senior year started, I was only going half-day. And so, I would go to high school in the morning, and then I would go work in the afternoon. And then I graduated mid-year my senior year. So, I was able to start Palomar and I still worked part-time for the company. And then, while I was going to Palomar, I just continued to work part-time and plan my classes accordingly. So, when I finished college, I conti--started full-time with the company. In fact, I probably started full-time before a graduated from college and finished college at night. I think that' ; s how it went. Brown: Wow. So, you were a working woman early on. Jenkins: Very early. Brown: Yeah. And did you stay in the accounting field for a long time? Jenkins: Yes. Most of my work there was office type work, accounting related work. And then I worked there for about ten years, and then I applied for, while I was in college, I applied for a internship, I guess you will, at IBM in San Diego. And so, I was hired to work part-time. I don' ; t know what it was called exactly, but similar to a internship. And then I worked a year doing that. And then--and then after that year, I started full-time there and I stayed there, um, for probably early 90s. And then--and then I quit so I could stay home with my kids. Brown: All right. Wow. Okay. So, when I first met you, you were involved in real estate. How did that transition happen? Jenkins: So, I think we actually met earlier than that, when Allan and I were on the school board together. Brown: Oh, okay. Jenkins: Okay? Um, and, um, so I--I stayed home with my kids. Did different part-time things. Volunteered a lot in the schools. That' ; s how I met Allan and eventually you. And then as my la--my second daughter was about to graduate from high school, I thought well what am I going to do now? And so then a friend said, " ; Why don' ; t you think about becoming a realtor?" ; And I never gave it a thought. But, I said, " ; Okay, well, I' ; ll check into that." ; And so, I did that and it--it' ; s a way to help people which is what I like to do. And so, it has worked out well. So, I' ; ve been doing that for, mm, probably close to seventeen years. Brown: All right. That' ; s great. Well, you segued right into the kind of second theme of my interview questions and that is your very long career in local government, starting with the school district. And so, my question to you about that is, um, you know, what--what--what inspired you to get involved beyond the local parent organization in the school district here in San Marcos? Jenkins: So, I think being involved in--in the local parent groups actually was my segue into the next part. Because I was involved in different parent organizations. I was involved in the 1996 School Board Bond effort. I co-chaired that with two other people. And then after that, once you volunteer for something, as Dennis well knows, (they both chuckle) you are encouraged to volunteer for more. And one day somebody caught me in one of the school parking lots and said, " ; Have you ever running for the school board?" ; which I said, " ; I' ; ve--No." ; And then, so then finally in 1998, Lucy Gross who was a school board member for a long time which even Allan knew well, was leaving the board and she--and she also approached me and said, " ; You know, you should think about this because of the involvement with the schools." ; And so--so I was on the school board from 1998 until 2012. Brown: Wow. So, during that time, how much did the school district change in those years? Jenkins: I would say dramatically, more so towards the last half than the beginning. But San Marcos was growing considerably then. I want to say, when I first started, there might have been--I don' ; t know--maybe eight, maybe ten thousand students. I' ; d have to go back and look at that. And now there are cl--close to, you know, approximately twenty [thousand]. So, it was a very growth intensified time, a lot of schools being built, always financial troubles from--due to state funding. But somehow, we got it all done. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And I think during the last, um--you know, during the last five years or so, my term there is just, I think, when dramatic things change. It was always interesting. I was told, and I--I didn' ; t realize this until--until later, but I was told that, um, at different times of an organization, there' ; s different priorities. And sometimes it' ; s a--it' ; s a school building cycle. Sometimes it' ; s a curriculum cycle that you' ; re working to overcome. Sometimes it' ; s a financial cycle that you' ; re working to overcome. And, um, and so as I look back, I realize when I first got on, it was a growth cycle. So, it was building. And then later it became more curriculum focused cycle. All--always--always focused on curriculum, but you--you pick and choose things to make things happen sooner than later. And so, looking back, I--I--I now see what that very intelligent person meant. Brown: So, what was your favorite thing about--or a couple of your favorite things--about being in a leadership position for a school district? Jenkins: I would say my colleagues on the school board and staff. I think--you know, we' ; re supposed to have the vision at a--at a high level, figure out what those goals are. And then it' ; s the staff that makes it happen. And I think San Marcos--both on a school district and city-wide too--has always had great staff. I think we were lucky. And we had school board members that kept their focus on the kids and what was best for the kids. We couldn' ; t always get there as quickly as we wanted, but eventually we would get there. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: I think also the staff and the--the other electeds, but also, um, some of the things that I--I find the most memorable to me are buildings, seeing the new schools open. High school graduations are always great because, you know, it' ; s a huge success for the kids and the--and the staff, to get them to where they were that day. And also, I think the--the two school bonds that we worked on over the years. Those were--that brought such change to the community, both of those. And--and as an elected official, sometimes it' ; s difficult when you have to make really difficult decisions. But it' ; s also gratifying when you--when you realize, okay, I made the right decision. It' ; s difficult, but I made the right decision. Brown: And you come out on the--on the other end of it feeling really positive. Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brown: Yeah. That' ; s good. So, from the school board, then you put your name in to be a city council representative and that comes with a whole ' ; nother group of--of learning curves and--and, uh, opportunities and challenges. So, any differences between the s--what you were dealing with on the school board versus the city council? Jenkins: I would say, um, a couple differences. The--the school district had, probably when I started, maybe, I don' ; t know, maybe not even a thousand employees and less than ten schools. Whereas I think the school district is more complex with a lot of the issues they have to deal with. I think the city is--just has a smaller scale to it. And the needs are--you' ; re looking at different needs than what the school district is looking at. You know, we have, say, two hundred and some employees and many facilities. But those facilities are, in my mind, are less complicated than a school facility. Brown: Oh. Interesting. Wow. So, what was the first year you were elected to the city council? Jenkins: 2012. Brown: So, 2012. So, there was no break between the school district and moving right into city council. Jenkins: No. I was mid-term-- Brown: Okay. Jenkins: --in 2012. So, I had two years into my four-year term. And there was a sitting councilmember who wasn' ; t running. And so, again, I had a--a couple people approach me and say, " ; You know, you should think about this." ; And I said, " ; I know nothing about any of that." ; I said, " ; I haven' ; t been on the planning commission. How do I learn all that." ; (both of them chuckle) And so about maybe--maybe about a year, maybe s--not quite six months before the election, I started to talk to as many people as I could to see, you know, what their thoughts were. We, at that point, had lost redevelopment money to the state. The state clawed back, I think it was twenty-some million dollars of redevelopment money, and I had a couple people say, " ; Why would you even want to go into that because, you know, there' ; s a huge situation going on here." ; But I just decided that, after talking to a number of people, that I felt I had good support, and I thought, you know, I can--I can learn this. I can do this. I had a lot of people that said, you know, " ; Come back and talk to me whenever you need to." ; And so, I did it. Brown: Yeah. Were the--was the campaigning different between the school board and the city council? Jenkins: Um, not--not drastically back then. To me it was citywide and to me the school board at that point in time was also citywide. So, I had--I think I had some name recognition with the parents and then because of being involved in different things in the district, then that--I think that gave me a leg up. Brown: Mm-hmm. Okay. Jenkins: So, it' ; s about--yeah, I would say, at that point in time, it was about the same. Brown: Okay. So, another continuing growth effort in our city over the time that you have been serving on the city council. So, I' ; d like to ask you--in that time that you' ; ve been on which is like ten years going on a few more years--so, um, looking back on that last ten years, what are you--I mean--wha--what do you see as the most value that--that the city council and you, yourself, have been involved in for the--for the community? Jenkins: Um, I would say doing our best to listen to all residents. We can' ; t always do what residents want us to do. That can be a little frustrating because they don' ; t realize--al--some of what we do is out of our control. We really push for local control here in San Marcos so that we make our own decisions. But more and more state, mainly, and federal is--is telling us we have to do things differently. Or we have to adhere to certain things. And, you know, sometimes we may feel like that' ; s not the best thing for our community, but we don' ; t have a choice. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: Or we' ; d be sued. Brown: So, if you had a magic wand today, is there anything in San Marcos that you would change or--or improve that would make a huge difference or, uh, for our future? Jenkins: I can' ; t think of anything right now off the top of my head. Um, I would like to see us, um--traffic is always a big concern in San Marcos. So, I would say we have continuing efforts to work on that. It' ; s not necessarily all about expanding roads. Some of it' ; s infrastructure and--and--and other things. So, I would say, um, just trying to keep working through what we can in that area and we' ; re working on it. We' ; re spending lots of money on it. I can' ; t think of anything particular. We' ; re--I' ; m excited to have the bridges done in a few months. That has been something that was talked about long before I got on the council. So, I think that would be a--a big plus to the community to get that traffic flow. Brown: That' ; s great. So, Sharon, I would like to kind of conclude this interview with giving you an opportunity to just--if there' ; s anything we haven' ; t covered. I--I do have one more question that I kind of have been thinking about in terms of my-- Knowing you for so many years, one of the things that I appreciate so much about you is your continually willingness and outreach to all the people that you' ; ve known for so long, which is, I' ; m sure, a growing number every year. How do you--how do you continue to keep in contact with this growing number of friends and colleagues that you have grown over the course of your time here in San Marcos? Jenkins: Um, let' ; s see. I don' ; t know. How do any of us do that? I think you just make an effort to--to get together with people and have meet-ups and, um, see them at different events. I try to, when things are going on within the city, I try to email people that I know would have an interest in that. And almost always I get emails back saying, " ; Wow. You know, we really appreciate that, because we don' ; t--we don' ; t have access to that. And so, we' ; re glad to hear about something." ; Just, you know, again just doing your best to try to reach out to people. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And--and see them when you can. Brown: Uh-huh. Well, I certainly think that makes you a very effective leader in our community in terms of keeping in t--touch with the way people feel. And I appreciate it. Jenkins: Thank you. I think another thing that' ; s important too is, um, as things have changed in the recent years, I think it is important for--for future councils and--and to understand that even though we' ; re in voting districts, I think it' ; s important that we represent all of San Marcos. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: Um, I' ; m in a particular district but I reach out to people in other districts all the time. Listening is the best thing we can do. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And responding to questions. Brown: Yeah. So, in closing, is there anything else you' ; d like to share with us that we haven' ; t covered today, but you' ; d like our audience to hear. Jenkins: Let' ; s see. I would say that I' ; m just very pleased that I' ; ve been able to live in one town for so long. Growing up I, you know, you always think, " ; Oh, I just want to get out of here." ; But I' ; m glad that I' ; ve--I' ; ve been here as long as I have. I' ; m glad my daughters--one lives here. Her--her two children are going to San Marcos schools. In fact, one of them is going to Discovery Elementary and I was one of the founding PTO board members of that. So, that' ; s kind of fun to go back and see that school. And then my other daughter' ; s nearby in San Diego. So, I think being able to see them enjoy what' ; s going on here in North County--that, things that, you know, I enjoyed growing up. And they' ; re now realizing that--that it' ; s a good place. 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Jenkins, Sharon. Interview, February 2, 2023
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Sharon Jenkins was born in Quincy, Massachusetts, grew up in Scituate, Mass., and moved to Lake San Marcos, California in 1971 where she attended San Marcos High School. She was a business major in college; after college she worked in the accounting profession for 15 years. Her involvement as a parent volunteer led her to run for San Marcos City School Board where Jenkins served for 14 years. Jenkins was elected to San Marcos City Council in 2012 and will complete her final term in 2024. She is also a Realtor. The interview focuses primarily on her high school years and her experiences serving on San Marcos' School Board and City Council.
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SC027-33
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Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos
Local government -- California -- San Marcos
Public administration -- California -- San Marcos
School boards -- California -- San Marcos
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2023-02-02
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video
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Sharon Jenkins
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Tanis Brown
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San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Sharon Jenkins
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Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
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Women's experience
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Tanis Brown: Okay. So, today is February 2nd, 2023, and this is a part of the North County Oral
History Initiative. My name is Tanis Brown, and today I will be interviewing Sharon Jenkins. So,
hi Sharon. Thanks very much for coming in today. You and I have been friends for a long time,
but there are some things about you that I don’t really know. So, I’d like to find out a little bit
more about your San Marcos story.
Sharon Jenkins: Right. Thanks for having me, Tanis. This—I’m excited you’re doing this.
Brown: Good. Well, I’d like to start from the beginning. Where were you born, Sharon?
Jenkins: I was born in Quincy, Massachusetts—
Brown: Oh my gosh.
Jenkins: —and I moved from Quincy when I was very young. I don’t even know how young,
less than five. And I moved to Scituate, Massachusetts. And I lived there until 1971, when we
moved to San Marcos.
Brown: Okay. So, you came to San Marcos in 1971, and would you still have been going to
school at that time?
Jenkins: So, yes. I started San Marcos High School in 1971 as a freshman.
Brown: Okay. And the school was just ten years old at that time, so—
Jenkins: Yes.
Brown: —it was a new school.
Jenkins: Yes, very small.
Brown: How many students in the–in the graduating class, Sharon?
Jenkins: So, I don’t remember the number. I would guess maybe less than two hundred.
Brown: Mm-hmm.
Jenkins: I know when we graduated, we could sit on the visitor’s side of the bleachers in the old
gym.
Brown: (chuckles)
Jenkins: So, that’s how small we were.
Brown: Okay. Did you have a football team and everything, and—
Jenkins: We had a football team, yes, yes.
Brown: All right. So, any changes between the east coast and coming to the west coast?
Jenkins: I think I was so young that I probably didn’t understand what those changes were.
�Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: Um, I remembered it–I remembered feeling like it was very, um, —things were very
scattered here, and–and not very busy.
Brown: Oh, compared to the east coast.
Jenkins: Right, right.
Brown: Interesting. Um, so other than changing coasts, do you have any other childhood
memories that stick out in your mind that maybe you carry forward today, or any traits about
yourself?
Jenkins: I would say, as far as high school and that era, um, making–making friends that some of
them I still have as friends today.
Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: San Marcos was very small back then. So, um, there was a lot of people connected and,
even though we’re much larger today, a lot of those connections are still in place. When I moved
here there were, I believe, less than 10,000 people in San Marcos.
Brown: Wow. That’s so cool. And you actually moved to Lake San Marcos when you first came
here?
Jenkins: Yes, I did. I moved to Lake San Marcos. Um, that’s where my parents purchased a
house. And my dad was a pilot and commuted to L.A. when he needed to fly. And, um, he
decided on Lake San Marcos because he felt that it was such a great, safe community. And he
had a friend in Escondido who told him that San Marcos had a new high school and had a very
good reputation. So, that’s another reason why he–he picked San Marcos.
Brown: Okay. Oh, that’s interesting. So, Lake San Marcos was kind of an entity unto itself when
it was first constructed and was highly touted as a–a kind of upscale community. Did you–did
you notice any of that growing up in terms of–of students or residents of San Marcos? Did you
always feel yourself a part of the community of San Marcos?
Jenkins: Yes, always. So, when I moved there, as I look back, I think there were less than five
children living in Lake San Marcos, because it was a retirement community back then. And most
of the homes that are there today were not there. It was m–majority was empty lots that homes
hadn’t been constructed yet—
Brown: Okay
Jenkins: —um, along the streets. (nods her head)
Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: So, I think the big thing I noticed, um, was very few—in fact, I don’t eve–I think I only
knew one or two—other kids that lived there, but always felt it was a part of San Marcos to me.
(nods her head again)
�Brown: Okay. That’s great. Okay. So, just in terms of the overall community of San Marcos back
in 1971 and during your high school years, wha–what were the big deals? What was–what was
the city like at that time for you growing up?
Jenkins: Um, I was—since I was new to the community—I didn’t have some of the connections
that many of the other kids had that had been through school from however young. Um, so I
think some of the connections were um, um, you know, as you made friends, hanging out with
those friends, I remember a teacher encouraged my mom, “Get her involved in something.” And
I think I was on the tennis team for a year. (chuckles) Um, never play tennis. But the whole thing
was, you know, the staff at that time was to get kids involved in–in things. Um, Friday night
football was a big deal back then and um, um, just hanging out with whatever friends you had.
Brown: Mm-hmm. So, in the community, though, did your parents get involved in the
community? Were they involved in Kiwanis and Rotary and that kind of thing?
Jenkins: No.
Brown: Were those organizations available at that time, or—
Jenkins: I don’t know. I s–assume so.
Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: No. They were involved in playing golf. (laughs)
Brown: Okay. Okay. And that was a big thing in Lake San Marcos—
Jenkins: Yes!
Brown: —to play golf. They had, what, an executive course?
Jenkins: I don’t think they had the executive course then.
Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: But they did have the big course, and I’m sure that was one of the reasons why my dad
selected there, too, because they both played golf.
Brown: All right.
Jenkins: And I played golf too. My dad taught me–started to teach me, um, when I was about
nine. And, um–and so I would go out and play. There was a couple of people–a couple kids at
that time, and another gal and I would go out and play periodically.
Brown: Okay. So, today San Marcos is fairly well-known for its colleges. We have Palomar
Community College and Cal State San Marcos. After graduating from high school, did–did
you—you might not of even had those opportunities, although Palomar, I think, was here at that
point in time. Where–what did you do after high school, after graduating from high school?
Jenkins: So, I graduated from high school and went to Palomar College because it had such a
great reputation back then as it does now. I went to Palomar, and then, um, transferred to San
Diego State. But it was right around the time—actually, I think that I was going on campus to
�San Diego, and then as I got closer to finishing—it took me much longer than two years, because
I worked. But, as I got closer to finishing, they started to have some remote classes in North
County, and I think a couple of classes I went to—one was in the–a middle school in Vista, on a
Saturday, I think, and another one was in, um, a business class from an—off of Furniture Row.
So, San Diego—so, Cal State San Marcos wasn’t here, but they had started to expand some
opportunities for the No–North County kids. So, it wasn’t a lot of classes, but it was just enough
that you could take a couple and not have to commute to San Diego.
Brown: All right. Great. So, you finished up at–at San Diego State, and did you have a vocation
or an avocation in mind, um, while you were going to college?
Jenkins: Business.
Brown: Business.
Jenkins: Yes. I focused on business administration and accounting at the time.
Brown: Okay. And you said you were–you worked your way through college? You were
working while you were going to college.
Jenkins: I worked while I went to college. I ended up, um—after I left Palomar—I always
worked part-time. After I left Palomar, I think I might have started to work full-time and then I
took classes at night, and would commute down to San Diego State at night, a couple of nights a
week.
Brown: Oh. So, you had a busy life, even back then.
Jenkins: Yes.
Brown: (laughs) Wow, that’s great. So, commuting to school—what was driving to San Diego
State from San Marcos like? What–how–what was the timeframe?
Jenkins: So, I always thought it was a good, um, a good travel time if I could do it in about thirty
minutes. (both of them chuckle) Most of the time it was more than that. But it depended, you
know. If it was a class that ended at nine o’clock, then you could pretty much get home within
thirty minutes or so.
Brown: Mm-hmm.
Jenkins: But there definitely were times of the day when it was more difficult to get there, even
back then! That would have been in the, um, let’s see, probably the late seventies.
Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: So. And the freeways weren’t as big as they are today.
Brown: Right.
Jenkins: But we didn’t have as many cars back then.
Brown: Okay. So, then after graduation did you look for employment in, locally, or interested in
going someplace else?
�Jenkins: So, while I was in high school, my first job during high school after my sophomore year
was working at Taco Bell in Escondido. And then–um, and then I started my junior year and then
I was an aide for one of the high school counselors and he had a neighbor who had a business in
Escondido. And he said, “Sharon, you–this–my neighbor is looking for some work. Why don’t
you go see if they could–if, you know–apply for a job there.” And that was the summer after my
junior year. So, I worked the summer after my junior year at the company, and then when my
senior year started, I was only going half-day. And so, I would go to high school in the morning,
and then I would go work in the afternoon. And then I graduated mid-year my senior year. So, I
was able to start Palomar and I still worked part-time for the company. And then, while I was
going to Palomar, I just continued to work part-time and plan my classes accordingly. So, when I
finished college, I conti–started full-time with the company. In fact, I probably started full-time
before a graduated from college and finished college at night. I think that’s how it went.
Brown: Wow. So, you were a working woman early on.
Jenkins: Very early.
Brown: Yeah. And did you stay in the accounting field for a long time?
Jenkins: Yes. Most of my work there was office type work, accounting related work. And then I
worked there for about ten years, and then I applied for, while I was in college, I applied for a
internship, I guess you will, at IBM in San Diego. And so, I was hired to work part-time. I don’t
know what it was called exactly, but similar to a internship. And then I worked a year doing that.
And then–and then after that year, I started full-time there and I stayed there, um, for probably
early 90s. And then–and then I quit so I could stay home with my kids.
Brown: All right. Wow. Okay. So, when I first met you, you were involved in real estate. How
did that transition happen?
Jenkins: So, I think we actually met earlier than that, when Allan and I were on the school board
together.
Brown: Oh, okay.
Jenkins: Okay? Um, and, um, so I–I stayed home with my kids. Did different part-time things.
Volunteered a lot in the schools. That’s how I met Allan and eventually you. And then as my la–
my second daughter was about to graduate from high school, I thought well what am I going to
do now? And so then a friend said, “Why don’t you think about becoming a realtor?” And I
never gave it a thought. But, I said, “Okay, well, I’ll check into that.” And so, I did that and it–
it’s a way to help people which is what I like to do. And so, it has worked out well. So, I’ve been
doing that for, mm, probably close to seventeen years.
Brown: All right. That’s great. Well, you segued right into the kind of second theme of my
interview questions and that is your very long career in local government, starting with the
school district. And so, my question to you about that is, um, you know, what–what–what
inspired you to get involved beyond the local parent organization in the school district here in
San Marcos?
�Jenkins: So, I think being involved in–in the local parent groups actually was my segue into the
next part. Because I was involved in different parent organizations. I was involved in the 1996
School Board Bond effort. I co-chaired that with two other people. And then after that, once you
volunteer for something, as Dennis well knows, (they both chuckle) you are encouraged to
volunteer for more. And one day somebody caught me in one of the school parking lots and said,
“Have you ever running for the school board?” which I said, “I’ve—No.” And then, so then
finally in 1998, Lucy Gross who was a school board member for a long time which even Allan
knew well, was leaving the board and she–and she also approached me and said, “You know,
you should think about this because of the involvement with the schools.” And so–so I was on
the school board from 1998 until 2012.
Brown: Wow. So, during that time, how much did the school district change in those years?
Jenkins: I would say dramatically, more so towards the last half than the beginning. But San
Marcos was growing considerably then. I want to say, when I first started, there might have
been—I don’t know—maybe eight, maybe ten thousand students. I’d have to go back and look at
that. And now there are cl–close to, you know, approximately twenty [thousand]. So, it was a
very growth intensified time, a lot of schools being built, always financial troubles from–due to
state funding. But somehow, we got it all done.
Brown: Mm-hmm.
Jenkins: And I think during the last, um–you know, during the last five years or so, my term
there is just, I think, when dramatic things change. It was always interesting. I was told, and I–I
didn’t realize this until–until later, but I was told that, um, at different times of an organization,
there’s different priorities. And sometimes it’s a–it’s a school building cycle. Sometimes it’s a
curriculum cycle that you’re working to overcome. Sometimes it’s a financial cycle that you’re
working to overcome. And, um, and so as I look back, I realize when I first got on, it was a
growth cycle. So, it was building. And then later it became more curriculum focused cycle. All–
always–always focused on curriculum, but you–you pick and choose things to make things
happen sooner than later. And so, looking back, I–I–I now see what that very intelligent person
meant.
Brown: So, what was your favorite thing about—or a couple of your favorite things—about
being in a leadership position for a school district?
Jenkins: I would say my colleagues on the school board and staff. I think—you know, we’re
supposed to have the vision at a–at a high level, figure out what those goals are. And then it’s the
staff that makes it happen. And I think San Marcos—both on a school district and city-wide
too—has always had great staff. I think we were lucky. And we had school board members that
kept their focus on the kids and what was best for the kids. We couldn’t always get there as
quickly as we wanted, but eventually we would get there.
Brown: Yeah.
Jenkins: I think also the staff and the–the other electeds, but also, um, some of the things that I–I
find the most memorable to me are buildings, seeing the new schools open. High school
graduations are always great because, you know, it’s a huge success for the kids and the–and the
�staff, to get them to where they were that day. And also, I think the–the two school bonds that we
worked on over the years. Those were—that brought such change to the community, both of
those. And–and as an elected official, sometimes it’s difficult when you have to make really
difficult decisions. But it’s also gratifying when you–when you realize, okay, I made the right
decision. It's difficult, but I made the right decision.
Brown: And you come out on the–on the other end of it feeling really positive.
Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Brown: Yeah. That’s good. So, from the school board, then you put your name in to be a city
council representative and that comes with a whole ‘nother group of–of learning curves and–and,
uh, opportunities and challenges. So, any differences between the s–what you were dealing with
on the school board versus the city council?
Jenkins: I would say, um, a couple differences. The–the school district had, probably when I
started, maybe, I don’t know, maybe not even a thousand employees and less than ten schools.
Whereas I think the school district is more complex with a lot of the issues they have to deal
with. I think the city is–just has a smaller scale to it. And the needs are—you’re looking at
different needs than what the school district is looking at. You know, we have, say, two hundred
and some employees and many facilities. But those facilities are, in my mind, are less
complicated than a school facility.
Brown: Oh. Interesting. Wow. So, what was the first year you were elected to the city council?
Jenkins: 2012.
Brown: So, 2012. So, there was no break between the school district and moving right into city
council.
Jenkins: No. I was mid-term—
Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: —in 2012. So, I had two years into my four-year term. And there was a sitting
councilmember who wasn’t running. And so, again, I had a–a couple people approach me and
say, “You know, you should think about this.” And I said, “I know nothing about any of that.” I
said, “I haven’t been on the planning commission. How do I learn all that.” (both of them
chuckle) And so about maybe–maybe about a year, maybe s–not quite six months before the
election, I started to talk to as many people as I could to see, you know, what their thoughts
were. We, at that point, had lost redevelopment money to the state. The state clawed back, I think
it was twenty-some million dollars of redevelopment money, and I had a couple people say,
“Why would you even want to go into that because, you know, there’s a huge situation going on
here.” But I just decided that, after talking to a number of people, that I felt I had good support,
and I thought, you know, I can–I can learn this. I can do this. I had a lot of people that said, you
know, “Come back and talk to me whenever you need to.” And so, I did it.
Brown: Yeah. Were the–was the campaigning different between the school board and the city
council?
�Jenkins: Um, not–not drastically back then. To me it was citywide and to me the school board at
that point in time was also citywide. So, I had–I think I had some name recognition with the
parents and then because of being involved in different things in the district, then that–I think
that gave me a leg up.
Brown: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Jenkins: So, it’s about—yeah, I would say, at that point in time, it was about the same.
Brown: Okay. So, another continuing growth effort in our city over the time that you have been
serving on the city council. So, I’d like to ask you—in that time that you’ve been on which is
like ten years going on a few more years—so, um, looking back on that last ten years, what are
you—I mean—wha–what do you see as the most value that–that the city council and you,
yourself, have been involved in for the–for the community?
Jenkins: Um, I would say doing our best to listen to all residents. We can’t always do what
residents want us to do. That can be a little frustrating because they don’t realize–al–some of
what we do is out of our control. We really push for local control here in San Marcos so that we
make our own decisions. But more and more state, mainly, and federal is–is telling us we have to
do things differently. Or we have to adhere to certain things. And, you know, sometimes we may
feel like that’s not the best thing for our community, but we don’t have a choice.
Brown: Yeah.
Jenkins: Or we’d be sued.
Brown: So, if you had a magic wand today, is there anything in San Marcos that you would
change or–or improve that would make a huge difference or, uh, for our future?
Jenkins: I can’t think of anything right now off the top of my head. Um, I would like to see us,
um—traffic is always a big concern in San Marcos. So, I would say we have continuing efforts
to work on that. It’s not necessarily all about expanding roads. Some of it’s infrastructure and–
and–and other things. So, I would say, um, just trying to keep working through what we can in
that area and we’re working on it. We’re spending lots of money on it. I can’t think of anything
particular. We’re–I’m excited to have the bridges done in a few months. That has been
something that was talked about long before I got on the council. So, I think that would be a–a
big plus to the community to get that traffic flow.
Brown: That’s great. So, Sharon, I would like to kind of conclude this interview with giving you
an opportunity to just—if there’s anything we haven’t covered. I–I do have one more question
that I kind of have been thinking about in terms of my— Knowing you for so many years, one of
the things that I appreciate so much about you is your continually willingness and outreach to all
the people that you’ve known for so long, which is, I’m sure, a growing number every year. How
do you–how do you continue to keep in contact with this growing number of friends and
colleagues that you have grown over the course of your time here in San Marcos?
Jenkins: Um, let’s see. I don’t know. How do any of us do that? I think you just make an effort
to–to get together with people and have meet-ups and, um, see them at different events. I try to,
when things are going on within the city, I try to email people that I know would have an interest
�in that. And almost always I get emails back saying, “Wow. You know, we really appreciate that,
because we don’t–we don’t have access to that. And so, we’re glad to hear about something.”
Just, you know, again just doing your best to try to reach out to people.
Brown: Mm-hmm.
Jenkins: And–and see them when you can.
Brown: Uh-huh. Well, I certainly think that makes you a very effective leader in our community
in terms of keeping in t–touch with the way people feel. And I appreciate it.
Jenkins: Thank you. I think another thing that’s important too is, um, as things have changed in
the recent years, I think it is important for–for future councils and–and to understand that even
though we’re in voting districts, I think it’s important that we represent all of San Marcos.
Brown: Yeah.
Jenkins: Um, I’m in a particular district but I reach out to people in other districts all the time.
Listening is the best thing we can do.
Brown: Mm-hmm.
Jenkins: And responding to questions.
Brown: Yeah. So, in closing, is there anything else you’d like to share with us that we haven’t
covered today, but you’d like our audience to hear.
Jenkins: Let’s see. I would say that I’m just very pleased that I’ve been able to live in one town
for so long. Growing up I, you know, you always think, “Oh, I just want to get out of here.” But
I’m glad that I’ve–I’ve been here as long as I have. I’m glad my daughters—one lives here. Her–
her two children are going to San Marcos schools. In fact, one of them is going to Discovery
Elementary and I was one of the founding PTO board members of that. So, that’s kind of fun to
go back and see that school. And then my other daughter’s nearby in San Diego. So, I think
being able to see them enjoy what’s going on here in North County—that, things that, you know,
I enjoyed growing up. And they’re now realizing that–that it’s a good place.
Brown: Absolutely.
Jenkins: Yeah.
Brown: All right.
Jenkins: Thank you for having me.
Brown: Well, thank you very much for your time today and this concludes our interview for the
North County Oral History Initiative.
�
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Jenkins, Sharon. Interview transcript. February 2, 2023
Description
An account of the resource
Sharon Jenkins was born in Quincy, Massachusetts, grew up in Scituate, Mass., and moved to Lake San Marcos, California in 1971 where she attended San Marcos High School. She was a business major in college; after college she worked in the accounting profession for 15 years. Her involvement as a parent volunteer led her to run for San Marcos City School Board where Jenkins served for 14 years. Jenkins was elected to San Marcos City Council in 2012 and will complete her final term in 2024. She is also a Realtor. The interview focuses primarily on her high school years and her experiences serving on San Marcos' School Board and City Council.
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Sharon Jenkins
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Tanis Brown
Melissa Martin
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2023-02-02
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Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos
Local government -- California -- San Marcos
Public administration -- California -- San Marcos
School boards -- California -- San Marcos
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San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Sharon Jenkins
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SC027-033
Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Politics and governance
Women's experience