16 10 196 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/077ed05bf3a5fde17082d0253ae4443f.pdf 43177e3c473df256fea7700642f6432e PDF Text Text REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 Sean Visintainer: Okay. This is Sean Visintainer and I’m here today with Mayor Rebecca Jones of San Marcos, California, doing an oral history interview for the Oral History Special Collections Project at Cal State San Marcos. Today is April 12th. We’re doing the interview in the University library. Mayor Jones, thank you so much for joining us today. Mayor Rebecca Jones: Oh, it’s my pleasure. SV: I wanted to start off just by asking you some questions about local government. And I think that it’s something that maybe is a little, at times, opaque to people. And so, I was just curious because local government can look really different depending upon the municipality. For people that are going to watch this video, researchers in the future, could you describe a little bit about how local government in San Marcos happens? RJ: Well, it used to be the great mystery. So, when I actually got involved with the city, I had no idea how local government worked. So, I tried to remember and put myself from that perspective as being just a resident and making things easier. And so, what we do, essentially, is we spend taxpayer money— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —that is from different sources. Most of it is from sales tax. That’s actually where we have our largest amount of money to spend for the residents. But then we also have property tax. And most people don’t know this but out of all of the counties in the city, I believe we are the lowest city that has the smallest share of property tax. So, out of every dollar we get 7.2¢. So, if you look at just that in itself, it really is very important for us to figure out other ways to actually generate revenue. So, we are a charter city. And a charter city allows us to actually have property that we own which is owned by the residents of the city of San Marcos. And all of that revenue that we actually have coming in—so Creekside Marketplace would be an example of that as well as City Hall—but all of that money actually helps augment the very low sales tax that we have. SV: Okay. So, I assume then you have to be very fiscally responsible. RJ: Very fiscally responsible. And so, anyway, our job as a local government is to spend your money wisely; keep you safe which is, honestly, our number one concern in my opinion—it always has been—and then also making sure we have a good quality of life for people. And so, you know, during my time on the council, I always again, you know, try to remember as a resident what is important to our residents. And I actually—this is kind of crazy but when I am campaigning which, you know, I’ve won five elections now— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —when I’m out campaigning, I actually enjoy the part of knocking on a stranger’s door and knowing that I’m going to get some feedback that I might not ever get otherwise. And so, I think it’s really important for me to always remember that part of local government, who you’re serving, which is the residents of the city, but also keeping everyone safe whether you own a business, whether you live here, or whether you’re visiting here. We want to make sure that we have that as our highest priority and, you know, people can drive safely through our community, Transcribed by Melissa Martin 1 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 come and shop here. If they’re already passing through San Marcos, which a lot of people do, we want them to, you know, spend a little more money and enjoy themselves. So, just keeping all of that in perspective is always at the front of what I’m always thinking and part of what my leadership is and, you know, just having again a good quality of life where people love to visit, live here, and, you know, a good place to call home. SV: Mm-hmm. Can you speak a little bit to how the process of government works, the City Council, the other people that are involved, the Deputy Mayor, yourself? RJ: Yeah. So, essentially, there is a City Council Manager style government. So, you might hear about like a strong Mayor. It’s not that. There’s only one city in the entire county that has that and that’s the city of San Diego. But a Council Manager form of government, local government, means that there are five council people. We pretty much have the same authority. However, I can put anything on the agenda which I have done in the past. But also, you know, I work very closely with the City Manager. I don’t really have any extra authority. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: There’s a few little things but nothing major. And so, there are five of us that really have to look out for the best of what’s going on in the community. And we actually started districts back in 2018 and that actually changed things a bit, because that was the first time where we had councilmembers that were working specifically and being elected specifically in one area of the city. So, we have four districts and I’m at-large, so I’m elected by the entire city. And so, each one of us, you know, we have things that are important to us. We bring them forward. And then we try to get a consensus on them. My job is to make sure we’re all getting along— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —making sure that everyone’s voice is heard, and then also making sure that, you know, we always are remembering, even if you’re not representing technically District 1, for instance, that really District 2, 3, and 4 also matter. And, you know, we only have a certain amount of money, and we really need to make sure that we’re, you know, spending money where the greatest need is but also not just focusing on one part of the city. SV: Yeah. You spoke about consensus building, and I think that’s really interesting since it seems like a lot of decision making has to be shared decision making in San Marcos. How do you go about building consensus? RJ: Well, the biggest, most important thing, in my opinion, is not being political. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, once you bring political parties into it, you really just spoil everything, to be honest. And so, my job has always been as I’ve seen it is to be apolitical, for the most part. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And then also making sure that we are, you know, again spending money wisely and, you know, really addressing all of the needs and the wishes in the community. And making sure that Transcribed by Melissa Martin 2 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 everyone feels that they’re part of the city is also good, you know. It’s doing well. It’s safe. It’s very important for everyone, like I said, to be safe. I think that has always been super important but even more now than ever because there are a lot of people that don’t feel safe. You know, our world has changed. Laws are not the same that they used to be. And so, it’s really important to make sure that, again, your funding, your fire department, and then also your sheriff deputies—we are a contract city, which let me speak to that for just one moment. SV: Sure. RJ: I’ve had a lot of people during, you know, the downturn in the economy and, you know, during a lot of political things that have happened, saying to me, “Should we have our own police force?” Well, we actually still are one of the cities that has the lowest crime rate in the entire county. And so, that’s an important thing. Are we—what is the need? What is the problem? And so, you know, starting our own department would be very expensive, probably $3-4 million dollars. And, if it’s not broken, why fix it? SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, we actually are very lucky that we have some great captains that have come in. We have them for about two or three years, max. But they always end up being the cream of the crop. They end up moving on and actually being maybe an under-Sheriff or, you know, an assistant Sheriff. And so, you know, we really have had some great, you know, leaders in our Sheriff department. But a lot of people like to come back to our city. They might come here as a young Deputy, move on, and then they like to come back because it is a good place. We do have an excellent relationship with them, with the City Council and the Sheriff Department. And so, I think that really is very telling that, again, back to “if it’s not broken, why try to fix it when you’re doing very well.” And that’s, you know, one of the things that I think you do need to always keep in mind is, when things are going well, pay attention to what actually is working. You don’t have to change everything just for the sake of changing it. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But you also don’t need to have things that you look at and say, “Well, we’ve been doing it that way twenty years, the same way, and it doesn’t work.” That’s when you need to pay attention. So, anyway, I’m very happy with our sheriff deputies and then also our fire department too, because they really do bring a sense of wellbeing to our community. SV: Yeah. We had to call the fire department— RJ: Oh no! SV: —not too long ago. They responded very promptly. They— RJ: Good. SV: —were wonderful. RJ: Okay! Well, that’s good to know. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 3 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: So, we were very happy with how they did. RJ: Yeah. Good. SV: So, you talked about identifying change and maybe not needing change for the purpose of making change. RJ: Right. Yeah. That’s it in a nutshell. SV: I’m a little bit—I was curious how you identify need. So, it’s important to see what doesn’t need to be changed. But how do you go about recognizing where there is a need? RJ: Well, a lot of it has to do with feedback, to be honest. I mean, really, if you see something that maybe isn’t going as well as you had hoped, I mean a lot of it has to do with how people are feeling in the community. Do they feel like their voices are being heard? And their voice is being heard doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re getting everything that they want. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Sometimes, you have to say no. And, you know, that’s the big picture. We have nearly 100,000 people and we have—you know, that live here full-time, and we’ve got about 40,000 students that are coming in, that go to CSU, to Palomar College and all of our other higher learning institutions. It’s a lot of people. That’s really about 140,000 people that are, you know, coming into our city every day, whether they live here full-time or not. You know, you have to figure out how you serve them. So, again, you know, are you providing opportunities for them to actually enjoy themselves, have recreation. You know, we are actually known for our parks, which I think is really important at keeping people out and active. And, you know, during the pandemic for instance, many of the cities were closing their trails and their parks. We followed the health orders, but we kept our trails open, and we kept our parks, for the most part, open. We did close our climbing structures and that sort of thing. But we always felt that it was very important to keep people out and active and having those opportunities because mental wellbeing is important in a community. But then, also having opportunities for people to open businesses. And you know, one of the things that I’ve been talking about for years—and this year it is our first time; we’re actually calling it one of our goals— and that’s concierge service, that is the customer experience because the customers are the community. And then, also, the business owners, when they come into City Hall, do they feel welcomed? Do they feel like it’s easy for them? They get the support that they need to open a business. Or, if they’re making changes to their property or something like that, are we doing everything we can? And, again, do they have that concierge experience? And so, we’re doing a lot of different things. We actually are just launching something in the next couple of weeks that will help people understand more about conditional use permits and opening businesses and finding out where their dream can come true of opening a business in the city and where it’s actually available to already open pretty easily, or where it might take a little more work on their end. And so, you know, we just are trying to always make that experience a little bit better. And, you know, I’m really proud of all the work that we’ve done since I’ve been on the council. This is my 17th year on the city council. And so, it’s been a long time. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 4 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I remember when I first joined the council, I was the only woman at the time. And I remember saying “Well, you know it would be great if we had good customer service.” And at the time, that did not go over very well (Sean chuckles). There was this “Well, what is that all about?” And, you know, now if you look forward, you know, to where we are today and how important that is to us, we’ve changed a lot. And so, you know, again, changing things that you identify as having issues and it’s not just what I think. A lot of it really does have to do with getting feedback from our community. SV: Mm-hmm. How do you solicit feedback? RJ: Well, I try to make as many—myself—as available as possible. And, you know, we talked about this a little bit earlier about, you know, being available. This is a full-time job. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: It could happen in a grocery store. It could be happening at the park. Wherever I am, I know that it is important for me to be available. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, Chamber of Commerce events. Really anywhere is a way. I have a very opendoor policy, emails, social media, even though I don’t love social media. It does offer a way for people to connect with me. And so, I think, again, that is really important. You know, and then my cell phone. I have it on my cards. I give it to everyone. I have a lot of people that just reach out to me and say, “You know what? I met you at this event. You gave me your card because I asked for it. I didn’t really feel comfortable discussing this with you. But here’s what I’m thinking.” And I think that is, in itself, being a mayor of the people. Being available is so important. And, again, you know back to the point that I made a little earlier as well, and that is being as apolitical as possible. I really do believe that that’s the best way that you can serve your community. Not making anyone feel left out and bringing everyone together and being that consensus builder is really important. So, I work very wholeheartedly and very diligently at doing that. SV: Yeah. So, you’re pretty much always on duty. RJ: I am. SV: Yeah. RJ: I am which, you know, makes it difficult. It is a hard job— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —to do, you know, pretty much all day every day. But, you know, I have to say I look around the city and I do have to pinch myself sometimes, thinking “You know, I was a part of that.” And “Oh, I was a part of that.” I mean, I really am proud of what our community has become. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 5 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, and we really have grown significantly. We are a college town. And then, you know, we’ve really done a good job, I think, at juggling following state mandates, making sure, again you know, our community is a good place to call home, also to do business in. You know, it really encompasses a lot of different things. But I’ve been very intentional about, you know, making the things that are important to our residents important to me as well. SV: Mm-hmm. Could you talk a little bit about how the city government functions within the larger context of, I guess, the county? RJ: Oh yeah. SV: You know, how the different municipalities interact and then how the county government as well, functions with the city. RJ: So, all mental health is handled through the county. That’s probably the biggest difference of the county and then cities. So, there are 18 cities plus the county. And then what we have is several different, you know, regional groups that we are, you know, part of. So, one being SANDAG (San Diego Association of Governments) which is mainly transportation. And then you’ve got also North County Transit which is for North County. And it’s our transit operator. And so, and then there’s like the water—we don’t actually have our own water department. So, Vallecitos Water District handles that. We are a little different than some cities. Like the city of Carlsbad, they also serve the water as well. But we don’t do that. You know, just really the biggest thing is when we’re on a board together, you have to wear a regional hat. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You have to figure out—because we don’t work independently as silos. We do work together. You know, when you look at transportation in itself, you know a lot of people drive cars, about 97% of the county, about only 2-3% honestly actually use transit. It’s not a system that actually runs often enough for it to be, you know, serving most people for their lives. Plus, a lot of people have lifestyles that really it doesn’t fit within their lifestyles. But then there are a lot of people—well, not a lot, but the people that do use public transit, they really do rely on it. So, we need to figure out how to serve everyone. And so, you know, is there a possibility of having a transit system that actually can attract more riders? I believe so. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But it also relies on people making that shift. We need to make sure it’s safe. There is a lot of people that believe that only people that are homeless ride on public transit. That’s not the case. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Though there are some. I’m not going to pretend that there isn’t. There definitely are. But how do we make it more meaningful and easier for people to use it? So, we do need a balanced transportation system like I said. And that’s not punishing car drivers and trying to force them out of their cars. It’s not going to happen. Many people, especially people I think with kids, Transcribed by Melissa Martin 6 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 really rely on that, you know, getting their kids where they need to go. And I, you know, my kids—I have, well, I’ll just give you an example. I had a soccer player and she played competitive soccer, my daughter. And then my son was a surfer. And so, two very, very different, you know, life sorts of things that they like to do. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, for me, I was always driving. I was always driving, you know, a big SUV because usually I was like “Hey, you know what? I’ll pick up your kids too.” So, you know, for practices and all of that for my daughter, I did a lot of carpooling. With my son, not so much because he wanted to go, you know, when he wanted to go. So, you know, I’d go and try to run errands while he was at the beach. And then I’d go back and pick him up. So, you know, a lot of different lifestyles have different needs. And, you know, so that’s one of the things that I always try to mention when I’m on that SANDAG committee. I’m on the Board of Directors as Mayor. And I try to say, “Remember. Let’s not forget about, you know, the parents. Let’s not forget about our retirees. We really do need a transportation program that fits everyone’s needs.” And it is tricky. But I think it can be done. But our new regional plan, I think that it really does punish car drivers in a lot of ways. And we really need to bring more transit, in my opinion, up to North County. And what I’ve been talking about for quite some time, and it actually will be rolling out pretty soon, is having micro-transit within cities because that is a way for you to actually get where you need to go within the city. It’s not going to take you to work or anything like that. But, you know, on your short trips, you know, getting for instance our kids to school because the school district has very little busing. They are starting to bring some of it back. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But that really is only for the elementary kids. So, you know, the older kids, the middleschoolers, the high schoolers, how do you get them to school in a meaningful way? And I think micro-transit is a way to do that. But it’s also a way for people like if you want to go out and have dinner, have that glass of wine. You don’t have to drink and drive! You don’t have to call an Uber. If you’ve got a system that actually is on demand, it will meet those needs. And I think it would serve our community better. So, I think having more conversations about, you know, different aspects of a transportation plan that fits really the needs of the community like microtransit and then also autonomous vehicles. They are the future more than I think fixed rail or fixed routes on buses. I think it really does lend better to peoples’ lifestyles. So, you know, keeping that in mind, that’s what we do at SANDAG. But then also at North County Transit. It’s all about the same things that I just mentioned about transit. But, you know, working with other cities it happens a lot. We also have something on the 78 corridor that is something that not the rest of the nation has. I think it’s one of a kind. And it is that cities work together. And so, Innovate 78 (multi-city partnership supporting business ecosystem along the Highway 78 corridor) started. And it was really about attracting business to the region. I call us the “upside” of San Diego because we’re North County. SV: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 7 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: We’re very close to Riverside and to Orange County. And, you know, we really have a different bit of lifestyle. A lot of people that really enjoy the urban living don’t really enjoy it as much in North County. But we also, you know, we have a lot of space for jobs and, you know, we also have a lot of homes. And so, a lot of people, you know, North County is a little more affordable. As you get east of the 5, it, you know, gets a little more affordable. East of the 15 is a little more affordable. But, you know, also trying to figure out how to balance, again, the transportation, getting people to work, and all of that is a consideration. But, you know, when you have large cities like Carlsbad where they have a lot of jobs, where are those people going to live? Well, a lot of them do live in San Marcos, for instance, or Vista. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, you know, Innovate 78 was all about trying to figure out how to attract businesses. If the city of Vista has a business or the city of San Marcos has a business within our city, we can’t find the proper amount of land for them because they want to grow. We work together and our Economic Development Directors work together to figure out where can we move them to stay in North County, so they don’t have to disrupt their workforce, so they don’t have to disrupt their lifestyles. How can we work together to make that happen? And it has been very successful. I’m very proud of the work that we’ve done. And, you know, it has been recognized that we have done some really good work together. SV: Yeah. So, is Innovate 78 like a—is it a formalized structure? Do you have meetings that happen on a regular basis? Or is it more of a—I don’t know exactly what I’m trying to ask you here. RJ: I know what you’re trying to—So, we don’t have—Okay. So, there are quarterly meetings where it’s the mayors, generally, but not always, and council members. So, they kind of cycle in. And then they’re hosted in all the different cities. That’s a quarterly thing. But our Economic Development Directors and staff work actually—they do have monthly meetings. So, they do work together on a very, very regular basis. And, you know, that, again—You know, we’re policy makers. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, it’s not imperative that we are there all the time, you know, at a monthly meeting or something like that. It is when it comes to transportation like SANDAG but not with Innovate 78. And again, you know, there’s a lot of work that has gotten done where, you know, businesses rather than them, you know, locate elsewhere like another county or something like that or, you know, maybe in South County, we’ve been able to keep and retain them here in North County which is a good thing. SV: Yeah. That is a good thing. RJ: Yeah. SV: You talked about micro-transit. I just wanted to clarify what that is in case it becomes available. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 8 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: Oh, micro-transit is like a small shuttle sort of bus. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Not a big full-sized bus but more of a smaller bus. And it would be—and what North County transit is going to be—Have you ever seen the Carlsbad Connector? SV: I haven’t. RJ: Okay. Well, it’s kind of a, it’s a smaller bus and it would be on demand. That will be rolling out in San Marcos. SV: Okay. RJ: Through North County Transit. SV: Okay. When will that roll out? RJ: Actually, sometime probably fall or early next year. SV: Very cool! RJ: Yeah. SV: I wanted to ask you a little bit about your journey into politics. RJ: Oh my gosh! Yes. Everyone says, “What made you— SV: Yeah! RJ: “—want to be in politics?” Well, I could tell you this much. I never did. (laughs) It’s one of those things that I just kind of fell into. And so, what ended up happening is I was a young mom, and really, I didn’t even know how local government worked. I didn’t know what city government handled. I didn’t know anything about anything. And there was a public notice in the park next to my home. And, you know, I had a baby at home and a four-year-old. And I was like “What’s going on? What is happening?” you know. And some of my neighbors were saying “Oh, we don’t want this in our park.” And I said, “Well, what’s even going on?” And then, as I started delving into it and I got more information and I actually figured out what was going on, I went “Yeah. I don’t like that for the park either. I’m not in love with that.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, it really was being involved. I sat down with all of the council members at the time and I had two council members, a Republican and a Democrat, say to me, “Rebecca, you should get involved in politics.” And I said, “I have you. Why would I do that?” And they said, “Well, we’re definitely not going to be doing it forever.” I think both of them were probably right around 20-25 or 24 years, you know, being involved in the city. And I was like “Why? Why won’t you do this forever?” And they said, “Well, you know, it’s a big job. However, when you really want to help shape the community, it’s a good thing.” SV: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 9 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: And so, I had both of them, you know, talk me into it. First they kind of “voluntold” me. And I actually first joined the San Marcos Creek District Task Force, originally. And I thought that was really interesting because I learned a lot about land use, a lot about, you know, just creating spaces where people could come and, you know, congregate, and really making a community a place where people can, you know, meet up with their friends and, you know, have those restaurants and those spaces that are, you know, beautiful and, you know, signature to the community, very unique. And I really liked that. And so, I was like “Okay. Well, I do like this.” And I have to tell you, my background is that I was a new home sales agent when I was in my early twenties. SV Mm-hmm. RJ: And then, my ex and I started a furniture marketing company which became very successful. We had customers. We started out with zero sales. We actually built that into a $100 million dollars a year in sales with Walmart, Costco, BestBuy as some of our customers. So, it was a pretty lucrative business. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But, you know, it was really hard. And I remember when he came home one day from work, he said, “You know, we’re going to start our own business.” And I went “We??” And, you know, at that time we only had one child and he was one. And he said, “Yes. You’re going to do all of the business part of it. And I’m just going to do the sales.” And I went “Oh. Okay.” And I go “You know, I don’t know how to work a computer.” And he said, “Nah, that’s okay. You’re smart. You could figure it out.” And that’s, you know, that’s really how it started. And so, I’ve always been kind of a, you know, very I would say involved person. If someone, you know, gives me a challenge or a task, I will go all in, and I’ll make sure I’ll do a good job. I’m very conscientious. And so, that really is how it started. Started out, you know, had that background of business in my, you know, my marriage and owning it. And then, I just went “Well, you know what? It’s time for me to give back. It’s time for me to be part of the solution rather than, you know, trying to stop things that are happening, you know as far as development goes.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, there were a couple of other things. The second Walmart, I didn’t agree with that. I didn’t think the placement was correct. And then there was the Robertson’s Ready-Mix batch plant over on Barham. And I said “Yeah. This is negative. I’d rather be positive.” I don’t like negativity, as you could probably tell. I’m a very positive person. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And you know what? I just knew that it was probably the right thing to do. And so, I ended up actually applying for an appointment because my ex had gotten sick in 2006. So, I wasn’t able to run a campaign that year. And I applied for the appointment in 2007. I was selected. And then I have run five campaigns since then and been elected five times. So, I must be doing something right. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 10 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Always been the top vote getter, even if it was for two seats and, you know, I would say that no one outworks me. No one immerses themselves more into trying to be involved and prepared. And so, I think that sets me apart because I really am not a politician. I’m just a person that loves the community and wants to give back and has found a way that I can do that. SV: And you said that you applied for the appointment for city council, if I’m understanding correctly. RJ: Correct. SV: So, what is that process like? RJ: Boy, was that fun. I’m just kidding. (both laugh) So, you filled out an application and then you talked about your experience and what you wanted to bring to the table. And at that time, it was an interesting time. So, Jim Desmond had just been elected as mayor. And, you know, it was—there were four men on the council. Pia Harris-Sebert was our first woman ever elected to the city council. And she was the first woman, but she was really the only woman for quite a while. We did have Betty Evans that, I think, served one or two terms in between. But she wasn’t on there. And so, it was really—there were four men left on the city council. And, you know, Jim Desmond was talking about diversity back then. And, you know, he said, you know, I like what Rebecca brings to the table, the business background, which is really important. And I think everyone should have at least some sort of background as far as how you spend money. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, it’s—you don’t have a ton of money to spend and, you know, really being able to figure out how to best spend that. You know, when you’re a business owner and especially when you’re starting out a business, you are pretty much trying to figure out how you’re not going to starve. And so, that really does bring an interesting perspective, I think, to the table. Anyway, and so, I was selected. There were 27 applicants. I got up to the podium and one of the council members actually had a lot of disagreements with me. He was supportive of the second Walmart. And, you know, he brought that up. He said “Well, you know, Walmart, they’re one of your customers. They must be very forgiving because you didn’t agree with the second Walmart.” And I said, “Well, you know, it doesn’t mean that I’m against Walmart. It just meant that I didn’t think the location was okay.” And those two things—you can still feel both things and believe in both things. It doesn’t mean that you don’t like Walmart. I mean, there are a lot of people in my community that love Walmart. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, whether I’m a Walmart shopper or not, a lot of people want to shop there. And so, you know, I think it’s really important that you have a good mix of businesses. And, you know, I think I brought that to the table. But I also, you know, brought forward the part of—I really cared about, you know, being able to represent everyone. And I think I’ve been—It has been a very valuable voice at that table. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 11 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Mm-hmm. So, there’s not an election process for city council? Or there wasn’t at that time? RJ: Not for an appointment. No, not for an appointment. SV: Oh, because Desmond— RJ: Because I’m in an appointment. SV: Okay. Gotcha. RJ: Yeah. So, right now, there is a supervisor seat that is going to be vacated. So, there would be an opportunity for either an appointment or a special election. At that time, a special election was gauged to be around $300,000. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: It’s very expensive. If you can come up with an agreement on an appointment, it makes sense, if you can come to an agreement. But it doesn’t always happen. SV: Yeah. So— RJ: And, you know, a lot of people have been appointed and have not been able to get elected. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I think there were people that actually spoke against my appointment that when they saw what I did in my first two years, before I had my first election, they went “Wow. Okay.” And they’ve been some of my biggest supporters, to be honest. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, that does actually feel good because people do recognize how hard I work. It does feel good to have that recognized. SV: Yeah. So, then you ran for reelection then around 2009 or so? RJ: 2008— SV: 2008. RJ: —then ’12, and then ’16. I was elected as a woman’s—or as a first woman mayor in our city— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —to ever serve as mayor in 2018. And then, I was reelected last year, in 2022. SV: So, what does an election look like from your perspective when you’ve decided—let’s take your first time that you’re going after your appointment when you’re going to be reelected or elected to the city council? RJ: Oh, boy. It’s a lot of fun. So, first of all, you know, you need to raise money. So, do people believe in you? Because they’re not going to definitely, you know, donate to your campaign if Transcribed by Melissa Martin 12 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 they don’t believe in you. So, the good thing is I did have a record and I was able to point back to that. But not only was I able to point back to that, I was able to point back to the success in my business, how hard I’d worked, and all of those things. And, you know, it’s really important, I think, that you do connect to the community because at the end of the day you can raise all the money in the world but if you don’t have the votes, it’s really irrelevant. And so, can you get— And, you know, every single time—and I’ve run five elections—I’ve thought, “Oh my gosh. I’m losing. I’m losing!” (throws her head back and laughs) I’ve had, you know, like—I remember my first campaign. Oh my gosh. I showed up to this one woman’s house. This is really deflating. And she says to me “Oh, I already voted. And I didn’t vote for you.” (Sean chuckles) And I went “Oh. Okay.” (chuckles) And then I walked away, and I thought “Shoot! You know, why didn’t she even give me a chance to tell her about myself.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, so it’s a very humbling experience. And, honestly, I would say equally humbling is actually serving because really, you know, to have people believe in you and when they say to you, “You know what? I love what you’re doing in our community” it really does feel amazing because, again, you know back to your hard work but also, I do love the community. And I do want it to be the best that it possibly can be. And so having that part acknowledged is really important to me too. But, again, very humbling. And, you know, so every single campaign I’m like “Okay. Well, if I just go by what people are saying at the doors, I’m winning! Like I’m winning!” And then I’m like “That could not be how it is. They could just be saying that to me.” And so, you know, it really is a hard thing. And not everyone can put themselves out there. It’s nerve wracking. On that election night, you’re going “Okay. Waiting for the first numbers to come up. What’s it going to be?” And, you know, I have to say my fifth election, you know this last one, it was very ugly. It was very unfair because I was, you know—it was a smear campaign, honestly, on my integrity and what I had done for all these years and trying to paint me into a box. I don’t fit into a box. I’m going to be totally honest about that. I don’t fit into a box. I’m not a politician, don’t want to be a politician. I want to be a civic leader and someone that will read everything and make good decisions for the best of everyone. And, you know, you’re not going to make everyone happy. That part is kind of hard in elected office. But if you’re making most people happy and you’ve got a safe community, a thriving community, at the end of the day that’s all you can really hope for and, you know, again making most people happy but there are going to be some people that don’t like you. I’ve had people actually comment about what I look like which is very insulting. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: What I look like has nothing to do with the kind of job that I do. And, you know, trying to call me little nicknames and that sort of thing, I’m not a robot. I am a person so it does hurt a bit. But, you know, at the end of the day I do remember, you know, some people aren’t going to like me. That’s okay. I just know, at the end of the day really, if I go to bed and I know that I’ve done a good job that day, I wake up the next day and it’s a new day and, you know, I can let things go which it does take that in this job. You do have to let a lot of things go. You know, the personal insults really don’t matter, I guess, at the end. But, you know, I’m not a robot so it does affect me Transcribed by Melissa Martin 13 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 a bit. And, you know, you do have to really remember just to stay true to yourself. And I really am very proud that I have done that. SV: Yeah. What is your process for self-care when you’re having a negative day or a stressful time? RJ: Well, as I mentioned earlier, I have to get to the gym. I mean, I’m just one of those people, if I don’t get enough exercise I will literally overthink things. And so, for me, I’m really getting to the gym. And my gym! Oh, gosh. So, during COVID(-19 Pandemic), closed down in San Marcos. And I was like “Okay. I’m going to go to another one of them.” It was in Encinitas. But I really am very specific because it’s not a super long workout and I can do it whenever, you know, pretty much during, you know, business hours. But I like to be able to go and punch bags (laughs) and kick bags. It’s a kickbox workout. So, I’m not like punching someone. I don’t want to do that. But I do, you know—it’s a kickbox workout. So, now, I found another one. It’s in Rancho Bernardo. So, it’s not in the city which can be kind of beneficial because, you know, I’m not sweaty and looking like a mess. And then, you know, if I’m like I’m punching and I’m having an especially frustrating day, I can do that. The other thing I really love to do is hike. I admittedly have not hiked in a very long time. I actually, a few years ago, hiked in the Tetons. So, I had to do a lot of training for that. So, I was out on the trails two and three times a week which it’s actually better for me when I can find that time. The job is very, you know, —it does entail a lot of time for me. So, it is tough for me to actually do that during the day. And, you know, when we have rainy weather, that doesn’t help. Or weather that’s too hot, that doesn’t help. So, you know, really trying to find the time to at least do that. And then I love to cook. So, during the pandemic, I started cooking for a few elderly people. And so, I have some folks that I cook for. And when I need a mental health moment, I just go in my kitchen and I just cook up a storm and several meals and I mean soups and I just try lots of different, new recipes and find things that I can tweak and make my own. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But those are the things that I do. I do try to do that. I don’t get massages. I really need a massage many times though. I don’t really take the time to do that. So, really, the biggest thing is exercise and then getting that cooking in. You know, and then everyone benefits from it. SV: Yeah. RJ: Because I’m actually not a bad cook, so— (chuckles) SV: So, what’s your best dish? RJ: Oh, gosh. Well, that has evolved. I don’t know. I’ve become quite the soup maker. But I do have my tried and true. I’m really good at prime rib and au gratin potatoes. My kids are always like “Mom” —and, you know, they’re older. They’re twenty. Actually my daughter will be 23 in a few weeks, and my son just turned 27. You know, whenever they, you know, want a good meal, they’re like “Mom. Could you make this? Or can you make that?” and then I made chicken fingers for the first time ever. And they’re like “Mom. These are like the best I’ve ever had.” So, anyway, I’m like “Well, I could teach you how to do it.” And so, you know, I’ve had them over a Transcribed by Melissa Martin 14 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 couple of times and, you know, teaching people to cook, honestly is—You know, there are a lot of people that don’t cook in this world, and I think, you know, the less we eat processed food, the better it is for us. And so, I like to, you know—I cook almost solely organic. I try not to eat heavily processed food. I think it’s better for me. You know, I’m going to be 56 next year—Oh, oh my gosh. Not next year. This year! Oh, gosh! In a few weeks. Oh, gosh, about a month. So, yeah. I’ll be 56. You know, I think our bodies can actually be healthier and mentally better when we’re, you know, putting the right food in them and then also getting exercise too. So, I try to definitely do all that to take care of myself. I know that’s a long story but those are the things that I do. (chuckles) SV: Yeah. Well, thank you for answering. And I asked the food question because I used to be a chef. So, I’m always interested to know about people’s experiences. RJ: Oh, wow! Nice. Nice. SV: And then exercise, I agree. I mean, it’s so important. I think to bring it back to our interview, you know, something that I take advantage of is the bike lanes. RJ: Oh, yeah. SV: And I was curious as to what your—You know, you’ve talked about transit. You’ve talked about micro-transit and, you know, what your priorities are in terms of pedestrian and twowheeled transit as well. RJ: Yeah. Thanks for asking that. So, actually, at SANDAG, this is kind of interesting, I had actually voted against spending $140, I think it was $140 million dollars on bike lanes. And I had one of our residents send me a message. And he said, “You’re the worst mayor ever!” And I was like “Oh. Wow.” And he said, “I can’t believe how you don’t like cyclists.” And I said, “Well, that’s not exactly how that went.” And so, I explained, you know, that there’s no reason that bike lanes should be costing $5 million dollars a mile. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: That’s way too expensive. There’s no way that should be happening on a road that is literally already there. So, I said, you know, I had an issue with that. I have a real problem spending money in a wasteful way. And, you know, so I said, “Hey, let’s meet.” I sat down with him. He’s now a fan and definitely not, you know, against me any longer because he didn’t really know all of the reasons that I felt the way that I felt. I think getting input from cyclists is really important. You know, again, back to the point that we have 72 miles of, you know, trails. Those are often times, you know, available for cyclists and, you know, pedestrians, hikers, even horses because we still have horses in San Marcos. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, I am really proud about that. The one thing that, you know, I’ve done a lot of research on the different types of bike lanes, and I’m not sold on the cycle tracks. A lot of times the very serious cyclists are saying to me, “Rebecca, they’re very dangerous because you are confined in a space.” They look safe. Maybe for kids they’re safe. But they’re very expensive, first of all. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 15 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 And they really are not super safe because if you hit that curb for whatever reason, you could be thrown off of your bicycle and end up in the middle of a lane. That’s not very safe. Or there is a lot of crashes if you’ve got like—you know, most cyclists are in packs. Hardly anyone goes by themselves. I have a lot of friends that are very serious cyclists that, since this whole thing came forward, I’ve actually just from my friend group—and I do have some serious cyclists now in it. And they don’t really like those tracks. So, in my opinion, any time that we can have a sharrow, which is the bike lane that is a full lane with cyclists in it and then a car only lane, I think that’s probably a really good idea. Any time we can have a split because you’re not limited on space or real estate and have, you know, a separate bike lane that’s by itself but without all of the little candlesticks and the curbs and all that, I think that’s a good idea. It’s not always possible because a lot of times you’re putting them in after the fact. I would like to see more education. I am concerned that some people get really upset with cyclists. And some cyclists—I have to tell you. I actually had a property down at the beach, a second property, with my ex and, you know, every time I would go to back out of the driveway cyclists would come and they would like not pay attention to me. And I would go “Well, they’re not the only one on the road.” And then I would see them running stoplights and stop signs. And that actually upsets motorists. I hear people say it all the time. And I go, “I get where you’re coming from. However…” You know, I try to defend cyclists. But, you know, if we all ran by the same rules or all, you know, followed the same rules, that would actually be optimum. You’re probably never going to see that, you know. There are always people that are going to break rules. It’s just how it is. And they shouldn’t spoil it for everyone. And so, you know, I have to say I am very, very careful around cyclists, and I really wish everyone was because the truth is a cyclist is never going to win against your car. SV: Yeah. RJ: It, you know—And, you know, as soon as, you know, you hear of, you know, a cyclist getting hit by a car and they’re like “Oh, it’s obviously the car’s fault.” Sometimes it isn’t. I mean, really sometimes it isn’t. You know, sometimes yes, sometimes no. But I do think we need to, again, create the opportunities, education and, you know, let’s just get into eBikes for one second. The kids should not be on the eBikes that are above their ability. It is a moving vehicle. It is like being on a moped or a motorcycle. I am—oftentimes, I see the kids, you know, going wayward and crazy on them. And you know what? It’s a recipe for disaster. And then, you know what? There are accidents that happen. And, you know, it shouldn’t be all on the driver. The cyclists, you know, including the eBikes really need to be responsible. I really would love to see more education in that. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: I have brought that up numerous times. I think the school district really should take a lead in this. I know our deputies at our Sheriff’s station do it as well. But, you know, a lot of kids are riding them to school. And it’s very dangerous. Parents, pay attention! (laughs) SV: Yep. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 16 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: They just think, “Oh, it’s just a bicycle.” It’s really not. And it really is very dangerous and, you know, we can’t parent the kids. That’s not our job. The parents need to parent their kids and they need to teach them how to be responsible with their bicycles, their eBikes especially. SV: Yeah. eBikes are a new wrinkle to resolve, I think, in the whole transit conversation. RJ: They are. And scary! It really is scary but, you know, very beneficial because they can take you longer and, you know, longer distances quicker. And you don’t have to be in super good shape to use them. But if you’re not responsible with them, they’re very, very dangerous. SV: Yeah. They’re good for the hills around here too. RJ: Yeah. For sure. I know. Someone said “Oh, yeah, just, you know, ride your bicycle around town.” And I’m like “Yeah. That’s—” We’re very hilly in San Marcos. SV: Yep. (both laugh) All right. So, we talked a little bit about your campaign, that first campaign, in 2008. I guess I wanted to circle back a little bit to even before that, to the San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force that you served on from 2005-2007. RJ: Mm-hmm. SV: And I was just curious as to what was the goal of the Task Force? RJ: It was to come up with a plan of mixed use and utilizing that entire area which, by the way, you know, we’ve been updating our general plan. We’ve put that on hold for now and we’re going to have a greater emphasis on bringing the Creek District part into that because we do need to update that plan. So, FEMA has updated the flood plain and all of those, you know, different areas are going to be changed due to in a 100-year flood, what happens? You know, if we get the torrential sort of rain that we had, you know, recently, another time or worse than that, oh my gosh. It makes a big difference. We have—excuse me (hiccups) —we haven’t had a situation where it’s flooded all the way from Escondido. But it could very well happen. And so, you know, being prepared is important. You’re not going to build a bunch of buildings in the flood way. It just isn’t going to happen. Currently, there is, you know, the Valley Christian School that’s over there. It’s in the flood way. So, they can’t, you know, change their buildings or anything like that. The reason I bring that up is that’s kind of like the edge of the Creek District area and then it goes all the way over behind Grand, or right around Grand. And there’s actually affordable housing that’s right in that area. So, what we did is we approved a plan for that. And then we also started getting the permits from the agencies so we could build the infrastructure. The infrastructure will be done this year. That’s a big first step in actually moving that forward. But, then again, you know we still need to incorporate the part of the land use changes are going to happen. We also have had people like Gary London come in and say “You’ve got too much commercial to the residential. You’re going to need to make some tweaks.” So, it likely will not build as dense as we had originally approved. So, we really do need to update it and bring in those changes, you know, bringing in the flood plain. And then also the fact that the infrastructure is actually done also changes things too. SV: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 17 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: So, the emphasis will be on getting that updated as well as the general plan. SV: Okay. So, the original goal then with the Task Force and into when you served on it then was to create the plan that is now kind of being put into effect. RJ: Yes, exactly. SV: And did it account for a Creek District at that time? Because the Creek District is going to be like a public/private partnership that will help with development. RJ: Well, there was 62 property owners in there today. SV: Okay. RJ: You know, when we approved that, yeah. It was to bring an it, a place, a place where people could come— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —congregate, as I had mentioned earlier, and really, you know, a space where it would be, you know, open. And, you know, you could have, you know, different community events there and that sort of thing. Also, North City is that way. North City we actually approved as a university district back in 2009. We always thought the Creek would come first. Well, University District has now really become. And again, you know, we don’t even have an actual downtown in San Marcos. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, you know, creating a downtown, creating that space. It looks like North City is becoming that. You know, we’ve got the Belgian Waffle Ride coming this weekend. It’s the largest cycling event in the western United States. It’s a big deal. Thousands of cyclists are coming from all over. They’re going to be eating in our city. They’re going to be staying here. We don’t have a ton of hotels. There are going to be a couple of other ones in North City and then also in the Creek District eventually. But really creating that downtown was one of the things that we really wanted to do. But we always saw North City—a university district back then when we approved it—and then the creek, because they connect. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Having that as a center core for the city. SV: When do you think North City will be built out? RJ: Oof. Well, that depends on so many different things. If I had a crystal ball, I could answer that. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, they’ve been (sighs), they’ve been through a downturn in the economy. They’ve been through a pandemic. You know, they’ve been through a lot. If you go there today, you Transcribed by Melissa Martin 18 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 know, they’ve got several restaurants. They’ve got the only, first of its kind, building with the university which is the Extended Learning Building because there’s nothing like that in all of California. And then you’ve got like Mesa Rim. You’ve got Draft Republic which was the old Urge Gastropub. You have Newtopia Cyder, Fresh Café, Maya’s Cookies, Wynston’s Ice Cream, Copa Vida, Buona Forcbetta, Umami, a lot of things happening there but, you know, not the residences. You have a little bit of residence there. You’ve got the quad, which is university, you know, kids that live there. And then you have Block C. And then you have the block that’s The Wrap behind. And then also, you know, don’t forget too Pima Medical is right there. And then, you know, you’ve got medical offices now, Scripps Health. And so, a lot of things are happening. It really is on the edge of becoming something much bigger. They have broken ground on and they’re moving forward with the first large-scale residential in there. And it’s going to be about 12 stories high. And so that will really be a game changer, I think, for North City. I think that will be what brings the really the grocery store and the other businesses that they need that can actually handle those residents and offer the services that they need. And, you know, that’s always what the Creek was envisioned. I mean these are things that I learned when we were, you know, going on these field trips to old Pasadena and, you know, all these different places that were mixed use because we didn’t really have much mixed use at that time in the city. We have a little bit over off of Mission but it’s very, very small scale. You know, having the meeting spaces, having the, you know, congregation spaces where you can have like an open-air amphitheater, something like that, that’s all things that really we started with the planning of the Creek District. Again, you know, we have to update that. But really—And it, you know, kind of grew into also North City being part of that, being a large scale downtown core area for us. SV: Yeah. There is a lot of construction going on right now. RJ: Yes. There is. SV: You have the infrastructure going on along the Creek District. You have it seems like three or four different projects right around North City and in North City. RJ: Yeah. So, you know, okay. So, back when I was selling new homes in my early twenties, I was working at Discovery Creek, Discovery Trail, so Discovery Hills. And back then we had, you know, this big map that showed everything that was going to happen in the, you know, the adjoining property. Back then, Craven (Road) wasn’t even there. I mean this—just to date myself of how long I’ve been around in San Marcos. First moved here in 1987. Just looking at, you know, what it was going to be with Kaiser Hospital, Scripps Hospital which isn’t going to happen now. But they are going to have medical offices, much like Carmel Mount Ranch. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, pretty large-scale medical offices. You know, unfortunately, you know medical is always something that we need. And, you know, fortunately though we’ve got some space to put that. You know, we don’t want people to have to go all the way down to Carmel Mount Ranch to go to a doctor. And, you know, currently Kaiser Permanente doesn’t have a hospital. The nearest one is Mira Mesa. So, 180,000 subscribers in North County have to go all the way there for a hospital. So, it’s going to be opening up in August I’m told. They’ve got a ribbon cutting all Transcribed by Melissa Martin 19 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 scheduled. And the Creek project, the infrastructure, it’s about $112 million to start. That is our largest capital improvement project we’ve ever had. We broke ground on that on my one-year anniversary of taking office as Mayor, which is exciting being that, you know, I’d only been talking about it for 10-12 years (laughs) before that. And, you know, before me many other councils had talked about it. You know, this year is our 60th anniversary or birthday, and our sister city Vista, it’s their birthday as well. We were incorporated on January 28, 1963. And so, here we are. We’re in our birthday year, opening up our largest capital improvement project, opening up our hospital. I mean, a lot is happening. There’s also an extension of Discovery (Road) which is about $40 million as well, 30-40 million. That is going from Craven (Road) all the way through to Twin Oaks (Valley Road). That’s a big deal too, getting that done. But, you know, we’re trying to move people around in a meaningful way. That will be one of our first corridors that has intuitive lighting, stop lights that will help people get through. But one of the things that I’ve really focused on that I want to get done is to make sure that we’re getting the traffic flow better. Traffic, it does feel like it’s at its worst. That’s one of the things that my opponent (Randy Walton) was using against me during the campaign. I’m like “Well, we’ve got all this road construction. Sure as heck, we’re going to have terrible traffic right now.” But when it’s done, I believe it will be a significant improvement. You know, getting the flooding to stop so you no longer have that. Being able to have two lanes over Via Veracruz is a big deal. And I remember originally when we were talking about, you know, the Bent Crossing. We talked about a—to save money, well, what if we did an Arizona Crossing (culvert crossing), which I don’t know if you’re familiar with that. SV: I’m not. RJ: It would still flood! SV: Okay. RJ: And I said “No. No. No. Let’s, let’s not do that.” So, we were able to apply for federal funds. And so, a lot of it is grant funded but a lot of money also comes from San Marcos residents. So again, you know, back to wanting to spend their money wisely. Helping move them around the city is really important. We appreciate everyone being so patient—not always patient. But, you know, it has been a tough, tough project because we’ve had unprecedented rain this year, of course. Of course, it had to happen! Just when we weren’t expecting it to happen. But, you know, it would have been a heck of a lot worse had we not had the bridge at Bent opened. I think that could have been actually dangerous for our residents if we had not gotten so far ahead on that. But that will be done probably about a July timeframe. So, the infrastructure will be done. The hospital will come right after that in August. I would say it’s a good year, a good year that we’re getting a lot done, you know, the hospital done and everything, just a lot of good things for our residents. And again, you know, the jobs that we’re providing too, that’s a thousand jobs at Kaiser Permanente. So, those are some really good high-paying jobs. I think that’s a huge win. I’m really proud of that. You know, when I first got the call from their west coast person, he said to me “Are you still interested in the hospital?” And I was like “Where do I sign up?” (laughs) Because, yes! Of course, I’m still interested. Anything we can do to help make that happen, you know. And, you know, also having the university have, you know, the nursing program has been Transcribed by Melissa Martin 20 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 really important. And then, you know, also over at Palomar because, you know, these are also the ability to teach, you know, hands on is a big deal. And, you know, we’re becoming a healthcare hub, now, of North County which is great, you know, with the hospital opening up and then Scripps are moving forward with their big medical offices. It’s, you know, again it’s sad that people are not healthy, however good that they have the ability to get those healthcare options close to home. SV: Yeah. RJ: And the good jobs, of course. SV: Yes. RJ: Yeah. SV: Yeah. Definitely. RJ: In fact, my niece actually just got her nurse’s license. So, very exciting. SV: Congratulations to your niece. RJ: Yes, very exciting. SV: I wanted to circle back a little bit to 2018 and just ask you why did you decide to run for mayor then? RJ: Oosh, well, I decided well before 2018. I actually decided when I was getting elected in 2016 as mayor. I talked to my husband at the time and, you know, ’18 was a tough year, I have to tell you. I was finishing up my divorce. He told me he didn’t want to be married anymore in 2017. So, I was in the middle of a divorce. I had to sell the property, buy a property. I moved 10 days after the election. A lot of people don’t know how hard that was. It was really tough. But, you know, what I knew that, again, you know being apolitical, really pretty apolitical, was an important thing for our future. I think also, you know, having these large-scale things coming up. I wanted to see them through. And, you know, I have to tell you, looking back and seeing all that we have been able to accomplish during my time on the council, I’m so proud. I know that when I’m ready to retire, I can look back and be very proud of what I’ve been able to accomplish with very, you know, diverse group of people. We now have three women, by the way, on the city council which is great. But, you know, again, you know, for 2018 having the first mayor that’s a female, that’s pretty surprising. You know, as progressive as the city is and, you know, how entrepreneurial we’ve really been, I always thought it would be Pia Harris Ebert, which she has been a wonderful mentor to me. I can’t express enough how much I value her leadership, all of her 24 years on the city council. But, you know, when she told me she was retiring, I said, “What?? You can’t go!” and she said, “You know what? I can look back and I can be very proud.” I mean we used to be known for our chicken ranch and then our dairy. And that was it! We were known as a chicken ranch and dairy city, not for higher learning education, being a great place to run a family, a great school district. We were never known for that. We were known for other things. So, I really am proud of how we’ve elevated who we’ve become, the city that we are, and all that we have accomplished. And so, you know, I feel like, you know, the Transcribed by Melissa Martin 21 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 things needed to be seen through and now, you know, I’m on my second term as mayor just, you know, getting reelected last year. I am very happy. I’m very happy. But I’m also, you know, as concerned about, you know, creating opportunity for a new team to come in that is like-minded, focusing on us being a safe city, focusing on us being an entrepreneurial city, also making sure that we are serving our community and providing awesome trails and parks and all of that. And it becomes very challenging when you’re an infill city, and as built out as we are. So, you know, it’s got to be, you know, trying to find good people that want to come after me. And that’s, you know, what both Pia Harris Ebert and Hal Martin did. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And I appreciate that. And I take that responsibility very seriously as well. So, that’s what I’m going to be doing the next three years, three and a half years. And then, you know, making sure that we stay focused. And we’re going to have some tough financial times. You know, it’s—business has not come back the way that we’ve all hoped. And so, you know, we hear of layoffs all the time. You know, General Atomics, I think they laid off 400 people last week. That’s a lot! So, having those challenges you really do need to have a good team in there. But, you know, I’m trying to bring other people forward because that’s a big part of, you know, a succession plan. It’s really important. SV: Yeah. You mentioned businesses haven’t come back. Were you referring to from the (COVID-19) pandemic? RJ: Correct. Yes. SV: Yeah. RJ: Just not in the way—you know, we do have a lot of businesses that have opened. But, you know, we also lost some. I mean, San Marcos Brewery, I still am sad about that, you know, a long-time business in our city, gone. Couldn’t keep their doors open with the open and closing and all of that. There are a lot of stories like that, unfortunately. And so, you know, being able to support the business community, I work a lot at that. I mean if I—I try to do everything I possibly can to support our businesses. And, you know, it’s not like one business. It’s thousands, you know. We’ve got like four tho—let me think here—four thousand businesses here in the city. It’s a lot! SV: Yeah. RJ: It’s a lot. It’s actually upwards of four thousand. And, you know, many of those are store fronts and they’re very small and, you know, they’re family owned. And, you know, I love that. I love that they’re thriving. I love that they’re doing well. I was actually just at a business opening a couple of weeks ago. The father-in-law of this young woman that just opened a brand-new business, he is a long-time business owner in San Marcos, twenty—I think twenty-six years he’s been in business. So, you know, seeing those generations, you know, staying in the city, opening up new businesses. I love that. But, you know, they’re going to need our help. And, you know, they need us to congregate and go to their businesses and, you know, spend our money here locally. And I try to always, you know, emphasize that. You know, during the pandemic, I Transcribed by Melissa Martin 22 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 tirelessly spent so much time on, you know, media just hey talking about all of our great businesses, and what about this and what about that and you know they need us now. But they need us still now. It’s not going to end. And, you know, a lot of them are really struggling. So, as costs go up, people eat out less. They spend less of their money. And so, we’ve got to remember that, when you can, try to spend it locally, whenever possible. SV: Yeah. I imagine a lot of governance is trying to minimize the bad impacts of change, you know, unforeseen or foreseen. And you talked a little bit about the pandemic. I was curious as to, you know, what you could do to lessen the burden on folks during that time and what you all did do. RJ: Gosh. Wow, we did a lot actually. We were the first city that—you know, we have always had very good reserves. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, that’s something that is because we’ve been very fiscally responsible. That money is for rainy days. And when the pandemic came, that was a rainy day. SV: Yeah. RJ: It really was. And so, we set aside $3 million. We were the first city, I believe. The only other city that may have actually beat us was the city of San Diego. But I think they set aside like $5 million. We set aside $3 million. They’ve got a population of 1.3 million. SV: Yeah. RJ: We have a population of under 100. So, I think we really outshined them in that. And I’m really proud that we did that. And that is, you know, that’s being very, very pro-business. I’ve always been pro-business, you know, being that I owned my own business and I know how hard it was. I thought that was something that we should do. And I wholeheartedly believe it’s the right thing to do for our community. But, anyway, so we did that. And we had business loans. So, it was small business loans up to $50,000, depending on your circumstances. We hired an outside company to do all the credit checks. And just, you know, you couldn’t be late prior to Covid. You know, you had to meet a few guidelines. But we were very intentional about trying to get that money out fast, as fast as possible. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: The federal government didn’t have any money out. And we had already saved a lot of businesses. Then the other thing that we did is we were the first city that had our businesses, as soon as the governor—I remember watching the press conference. And Governor Newsom said, when he was talking about some of the businesses could no longer be operating inside, but he didn’t say outside! I was on the phone to our economic development director, and I said, “I’m thinking we can have outside businesses. What can we do to make this as quick as possible.” And we had people moving their businesses. And it was a lot of services, like haircutting and all of that. And then there was another issue about that because—and, you know, restaurants and everything. But there was another issue with that because they didn’t have their business Transcribed by Melissa Martin 23 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 licenses. So, we were actually fighting to open up. And, you know, I mean, again, tirelessly, the letters that I sent to the governor. I mean, I was on full blown action I felt like the whole time, which is very exhausting. SV: Yeah. RJ: But it was like okay, let’s get those businesses moved outside as soon as they can. And we had businesses and we’re like “Don’t worry about your permit. We’re going to check, make sure that you are following it. Just follow these guidelines and we’ll come and check on you.” We had businesses out there before any other. And we didn’t charge anyone a fee. There were a lot of cities that were out there charging them a fee. We’re like no. We need our businesses to stay in place. We need to support them, and we can’t just say that we’re supporting them. We actually have to do it. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, I am really proud that we did that. And, you know again, we didn’t close all of our trails. We were not very out in public, you know, screaming it from the rooftops that we’re open because we didn’t want our city residents to feel crowded because all of the other residents from the other cities were coming, though some people knew about them. It was just—it was important for us to do everything we could to support the community. So, fast forward to when we received our federal funds, we were actually able to take all of those loans and make them grants so they didn’t have to be paid back. That was huge. SV: Yeah. RJ: The other thing that we did is we set aside some of our ARPA (American Rescue Plan Act) funds to help our non-profits. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Because they were really hurting at that time too. And I am so proud of all of the things that we did during the pandemic because it was us being innovative, us cutting through the red tape, and us working hard to support our businesses and our community and our non-profits. Because our non-profits support our residents, right? And then the other thing that we also did is—and it’s not our responsibility, though we recognized that our community, our youth were doing very poorly. You know, I’ve been involved with the Boys and Girls Club for many years. And one of the things that they—I was having a conversation with them—one of the things that they were saying is that many of the kids that are at risk were not checking in. And so, you know, you’ve got parents that are very frustrated. The kids are at risk of being abused or neglected. And you’ve got this ultra tough situation happening. So, the mental health of our community, you know, we’ve really tried to focus on that too. And so, one of the things that we did for our youth in the community is we partnered with the school district, and we are equally funding the mental health program that they have rolled out to help the kids bounce back and figure out. You know, a lot of them are so confused. A lot of them have learning deficits. They don’t know how to articulate that, their frustration, their fear and, you know, just getting sick. You know, a lot of them are terrified of getting sick. And, you know, what is life going to be? It’s very different. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 24 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Yeah. RJ: You know, back to the whole pivot—I mean, I know pivot is kind of overused during the pandemic, but it’s a real thing. And so, for us as a city, you know, we made an intentional effort to do what we could to also help the kids. And, you know again, I think I told you this a little bit earlier, you know, I had people—I felt like a counselor many times during the pandemic. I had some of our folks calling me up and sending me messages and saying, you know, “I’m scared.” And so, I would check in on people and let them know, “Hey. You know what? You’re seen. You’re heard. We care about you.” So, you know, mayor’s job is not just all legislation. You know, there’s a lot of parts to it. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I think something that a lot of people think is really, it’s just all about rules and regulations. That’s all your job is. Well, I think as a mayor especially, and a councilmember to some degree, but I think as a mayor I’m the figurehead pretty much for the city council. A lot of people know who the mayor is, and they might not know who their councilperson is. For me to be the face of our city, out there letting people know that we care about them and letting them know that it’s not all about rules and regulations. We actually had a young man that was murdered within our community by one of his friends. He was in his early 20s. And, you know, we renamed a trail after him, actually the Gratitude Trail in his memory, right there around Discovery Lake because us doing things to help our community heal in tough times, in tragic times, is really important. And I really do think that that’s a part of government that sometimes people are like “Well, I’m a politician. I don’t have to do that.” Yeah, you don’t have to do it. But I think doing it is important because, again, you know, how—you know, during the pandemic, people needed to know we care about you. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: We care about your businesses. We’re all in with you. We’re going to do everything we can to keep you open and do it safely, of course. But, you know, when it was all the big businesses could stay open and then the small businesses were closed. They couldn’t adapt to that! SV: Yeah. RJ: Many of them went out of business. And, you know, so we had to make it so that it’s easy for every small business to get a fair shake, to be treated like a large business, you know, while also following the health order. So, it was a real tough time. And, again you know, back to grief. You’ve got to deal with grief too within a community and figure out how to move people forward. And, you know, one of the things that I think is always important is, even if you’re taking baby steps moving forward, you’ve got to move forward. Whatever that looks like. And sometimes it’s very different than two weeks ago even. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I mean when the pandemic hit, remember, two weeks! Staying home. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 25 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Yeah. We have a archive that we started mostly with the students, but with community as well, trying to record experiences during that time. RJ: Yeah. SV: And it’s amazing so many students especially writing “I thought I was going to have a twoweek vacation and here I am a year later.” And, you know, it’s just— RJ: Yeah. SV: —it’s just a traumatic experience all the way around. RJ: For sure. And, you know, I mean that is a part, I think, of being a mayor during a pandemic that I—you know, it’s kind of interesting. I was on a Zoom with some girl scouts, and they said to me “If you knew there was going to be a pandemic, would you still run for mayor?” (Sean laughs) And it was funny because I didn’t even hesitate and I said, “Absolutely!” SV: Yeah. RJ: And the reason being is because I was the right person at the right time. I am very positive and I’m very—I mean, you know, the glass is not half-full. The glass is almost to the top, right? There’s always a way to bring everyone together. There’s always a way to, you know, encourage people. And, you know, that’s what I did! My job changed. But I kept working. And, you know, there were a lot of people that really needed to be seen and I let them know they were being seen. SV: Yeah. RJ: I think without hesitation I am glad that I was the mayor at that point in time. SV: Mm-hmm. It’s a really interesting thing that you say about there being—I guess you’re saying so your job is obviously legislation. But it’s also emotional labor and care and I’m hearing as well, communication is important. RJ: Mm-hmm. SV: What are some other aspects? I guess my question is what would surprise people the most about your job that people don’t know? RJ: Oh, that’s a tough one. Gosh, I don’t even know if I have an answer to that. You know, it’s interesting. So, Jeff Zevely, he’s from Channel 8. He actually was doing a show on our birthday. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And he said to me, he goes “You know, if San Marcos had a cheer squad, would you be on it?” and I said, “I’m the head cheerleader! What are you talking about?” (both chuckle) And he even said to me after the interview, he goes “You were so fast. You didn’t even like stop for one second.” I said, “Well, that’s my job.” My job is to not just deal with all the tough stuff. It’s also to be out advocating that San Marcos is a great place to live. We have so much for—You know, you can start out, you know, as a baby. And pretty soon you’ll be able to be born here (indicates quotations with her fingers), actually born here, because—I mean, I guess you could be born at Transcribed by Melissa Martin 26 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 your house if you’ve got a midwife or something but, you know, it’s not a traditional thing. You could be born here, and you can earn a master’s degree and then you could work here, and you could have a good paying job. Like that is a remarkable thing if you look at our city from our humble roots: one stop light, chicken ranch, the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch right here where the university is today. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And Hollandia Dairy. That’s all we were known for. And so, yeah, I would say a lot of people might not know what that entails but it’s a lot of time and effort. I can assure you of that. SV: Yeah. RJ: Like it’s almost more than the actual job, although I do a lot of reading. So, that’s probably the most time consuming part of my job, you know, because when I show up, you know, I’ve even had people at SANDAG say—that are a different political party than me—say, “You know, I might not—” And actually this happened like maybe, well it’s happened a few times, but in the last couple of weeks, where this man got up and he said, “You know, Mayor Jones—” and I’m like going “Oh gosh. What’s he going to say?” (both laugh) You never know, right? And then he says, “Mayor Jones, even though I philosophically don’t agree with you on everything, I appreciate that you are always prepared, and you know exactly what you’re talking about because you’re prepared.” And it really does require a lot of time and effort. And, you know, there are times I wake up and I’m like “I’m tired today. I don’t want to work.” But I don’t get that luxury. I have to do what I have to do. And I’ve got to pull it together. And it is a very—you know, the cheerleading part of it and I’m not saying it, you know, like a cheerleader—but, you know, being again the spokesperson, the person that’s in the front, the person that’s out and about the most, probably one of the most identifiable positions in the community—even if people don’t know me, they know that there’s a mayor. You know, to be the mayor of such an incredible city, I’m really humbled by it. I really am. But it does take a lot of effort and it does take a lot of, you know, inner strength. And, you know, I had a pretty tough childhood and, you know, I was a latchkey kid a lot of the time. And, you know, my parents got divorced when I was eleven which is a really tough age. And I had a lot of things happen where I just go “Gosh, I wish it wouldn’t have been my life.” However, it was. But you know what? It also gives me the authority when people are, you know, telling me “You know, I’m going through tough times,” I get it! I was there. I’ve been there. And, you know, I think it helps me do a very good job. And, you know, not everyone thinks I do a good job. But I just got reelected so— SV: Yep! RJ: —again, 64% of the vote. I don’t think I mentioned that before. But the largest margin I’ve ever won by, I think that is a testament to how much I care for the community, how hard I work for the community, and the fact that it’s not all about legislation to me. It really is about being the cheerleader and the person that’s out in the front, talking about what a remarkable community we have. And when I say, “the community,” it’s the people. SV: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 27 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: It’s not me. It’s people that I represent. And I hope that they will always feel like they can reach out to me, and I will always try to help them in whatever I can. SV: Yeah. Thank you. I think I had maybe one or two more questions. But something that I didn’t necessarily prepare to talk about in this interview, I wanted to ask you about was you mentioned you’re the first mayor that was elected that’s a woman in San Marcos history. RJ: Mm-hmm. SV: And I was curious if there are considerations that, in your opinion, that women politicians have to take into account that men do not. RJ: Huh! (Sean chuckles) Well… SV: I know that’s a big question. RJ: Well, I’m also not married. So, it actually is quite awkward— SV: Yeah. RJ: —in a lot of ways, you know, because I am out there. It opens it up for—And, you know, there’s a lot of discussion about bias, right? SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: There is still bias against women. It’s sad. But there are. And women politicians! I don’t know if people are surprised all the time. But, I mean, I have been, I mean, I’ve been called names. I’ve been, you know, people try to box me in as I mentioned earlier. It’s hard to believe that it’s 2023 and things still happen the way that they happen because, you know, talking about what I look like, what my body looks like. I’ve had people actually talk about what my body looks like! I’m thinking, wow! You know? Would you say that to your mother? Because I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t. And so, you know, at a job like this that’s very out there, very highly visible—and I am highly visible—you know, I’ve had a few times, very inappropriate comments, inappropriate messages sent to me. And, you know, a couple of times I’m like “Gee, should I be worried?” And I send everything to the Sheriff’s department when I have things that are sent to me that are uncomfortable. But it’s different than being a man. One hundred percent. It’s very different than being a man. I don’t think you have to worry about people talking about what you look like. I don’t think that any man as a mayor would have people sending them messages about what they look like. SV: Yeah. RJ: I don’t think it would ever happen. Now, I don’t really mean if someone says “Oh, I really like how your style.” That’s not sexual. But the truth is a lot of things that are sent are very sexual and I think—I am actually flabbergasted, and you know I’m almost 56 years old. I’m flabbergasted that at 56 years old, as an elected mayor, that I would be treated like this. But it happens! SV: Yeah. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 28 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 RJ: It’s really hard to believe. And, honestly, I feel bad for every woman that is just trying to do a job and it gets distracted and convoluted by people bringing in other things that are just not appropriate. It’s just not appropriate. I mean, talking about what I look like or whether they—I mean, the first thing that someone said to me—I was offended but it was early on—was that my teeth were freakishly white. And I went (makes a puzzled and slightly disgusted look on her face) “Why would someone talk about that?” I don’t even think someone would say that about a man. SV: Yeah. RJ: But I feel like, as a woman, on some level there is this—it’s open to talk about what you’re wearing, what you look like, whether they think you are, you know, someone they would want to date or someone—I mean, like really inappropriate things when you’re just trying to darn well do a job, you know what I mean? So, it really is just hard to believe that here we are in 2025—or 2023. Gosh, I can’t even believe I just said that. (both laugh) SV: What would your advice— RJ: You can cut that part out! (both still laughing) SV: We’ll make a note. What would your advice be to women entering politics? RJ: That’s another tough one. You know, I have a podcast too. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And one of the things about my podcast that I love is that you’ve got women from every different, you know, career, all different political parties. It’s not at all political. But they’re all just doing their job and they found something that they love. So, I guess one of the things that I would tell women that are thinking about politics, if you love it, you should definitely do it because you’re going to be very, very effective when you can put your heart into it. There is a lot of preparation that happens. And like for me, you know, I now am the one with the historical knowledge because I’ve been around so long. There is a lot to learn. I mean, you really do need to try to figure out why things happened. I mean, when I first joined the council, I spent every single Friday, like half a day, with the City Manager because he was with the city for like 24 years to find out everything I could about the why and the how and, you know, just how things happen because I thought that would prepare me which it has. But don’t let the things—I mean, you are going to have to have thick skin. It’s true. You are going to have to have thick skin, thicker than a man that goes into politics. But don’t be deterred by people. You really need to follow what you think is right and bringing in your own style. Like I don’t know anyone that does my job the way that I do it because I do it my way. And I don’t let any political party call me up and tell me what to do. I follow what I believe is right. And I follow the kind of politician that I want to be, though I don’t really consider myself politician, technically I am. But I really just want to do a good job. I want to be prepared. I think as a woman you probably have to be a little more prepared. Otherwise, people will start thinking that “Well, you don’t belong there. You’re not smart enough. You’re not this.” It really is about taking information and making a good decision. If you’re a good decision-maker, you can do this job. You’re qualified. You love the community, you’re qualified. If you are willing to put a lot into it, you’re qualified. Not Transcribed by Melissa Martin 29 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 everyone has that qualification. And when I say qualification, it’s not just what others believe but it’s what you believe on the inside. And, you know again, back to my podcast, my podcast is about elevating women because we really still need elevating. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: As, you know, there’s a lot of talk about, you know, different segments of the population whether you’re a minority, whatever, it really still is about women too. We do fit into that. The equity and the inclusion isn’t all about your race. It’s about also your gender because our gender still is a hinderance. And some people don’t see that. And I wish more people paid attention to that because when you’re a woman, you’re a minority. You really do have more against you than a man that’s a minority. And as a woman that is not a minority, you still have things against you that are something that a man would not experience. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And I wish more people really paid attention to that. But, you know, back to the point of if you’re a woman and you really want to, if you have a heart for politics, you should not let any one person or segment of people deter you if you really, really have the heart for it because you can do it. It just is going to be probably a little harder than it is for a man. SV: Mm-hmm. Well, thank you for that answer. And I think it’s wonderful advice. RJ: Thank you. SV: I’ll give you a much nicer question. RJ: Nah, that’s not a hard question at all! I, honestly, and I really do believe it. I mean, it’s terrible! It really is terrible that we’re still there, in 2023. SV: Yeah. RJ: Why did I say 2025? I don’t know. (Sean laughs) SV: It happens. What is the best day of work that you’ve had? RJ: Oh, gosh. There have been a lot of them. I would say I had a really good one recently. And it’s weird because, you know, it’s always something different. But honestly, when I am out in the community at an event and there are kids and they ask me things like—I was at the Boys and Girls Club and I was, of all things, baking cookies with them. So, let me tell you a little story. So, during the pandemic, we decided at West Lake Village that we, the city, that we were—well, we already knew that we were going to have a long-term lease for the Boys and Girls Club so they could expand their services at that location. And then, when we got some of our ARPA (American Rescue Plan Act) funds, we were like okay, we’ll help them with the TIs (tenant improvements) because then that’ll be good for the community because kids can go there and, you know, spend, you know, more time there. So, anyway, I was like “Oh, they’re going to have a kitchen there.” And I was like “That’s so cool.” So, I called up the director—and by the way, I started a girls mentoring program at the Boys and Girls Club which during the pandemic we had to kind of shut down. But I used my tax refund to put some money into it. And I said to them, I Transcribed by Melissa Martin 30 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 said “You know what would be great?” I go, “I really want to come back and spend more time with the kids,” because I’ve been so busy since I got elected as mayor. I don’t always have time to do all the things I really want to do. And I said, “Can I come back and, you know, bake cookies with the kids?” And they were like “Yeah, sure.” And I said, “So, I want to also donate a mixer.” You know, not all kids get to use a really nice KitchenAid mixer. But it’s really cool to use and to learn and, you know again, like to your point, you know. When you’re a chef, you probably are going to be using one of those at some point in time. So, I was like “I really want to buy one.” I’m like “It’s on my heart. I want to do this.” So, I donated the mixer a while ago. And then I’m like, “Gosh. Okay, it’s January. I need to start figuring out when I’m going to get in and bake cookies with the kids because I really want to do it.” And so, we set up a date. It was right after the darn (Highway) 78 flooding happened. SV: Oh, yeah. RJ: And CalTrans (California Department of Transportation). And it was that day. It was that day at 4 o’clock. I was supposed to go over there and bake cookies with them. And then I had to cancel because Caltrans had to have this emergency meeting. And I was like on Zoom, and I was like “Oh, darn it.” I’m like “Oh, duty calls.” I’m like “Can we reschedule another day?” So, we rescheduled another day. I get there and the kids are so excited to meet the mayor first of all. And this is, by the way, intentionally in one of our lower income areas of the city. It’s over on Autumn Drive. And they’re like “Do you think I could be a mayor?” And I just got to hang out and talk to them and I’m like—and teach them how to make, you know, how to crack the eggs. They were doing so good. And, you know, so there was about—I think there was like 12 or 14 of them. I’m like “I want to go back and do that like so all the kids that go to that branch have that moment of time with me.” Because I appreciated it as much as they did. And so, for me, the moments like that or when I get to go and talk to, you know, kids that are at the Boys and Girls Club service groups like Girls Scouts, Boys Scouts. All of the kids groups, honestly, those are the best days that I always have. I mean, really, the kids are excited. I’m really excited to hear what they have to say. But I also am getting a different—and back to, you know, my point of going out and door knocking and meeting people and hearing what they have to say about the city. I’m hearing it from kids and they’re going to be 100% honest. SV: Yeah. RJ: They’re not going to sugarcoat it. SV: (laughs) That’s true. RJ: They’re not going to try to fluff me up. They’re not going to try to get something out of me. They are going to tell me exactly what they think about their community. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And you know what? I appreciate that. So, for me, it’s always about the moments with the kids when I get to go out and do things like that. It actually fills me so much more than any other moments because, again you know, you do have to put a lot into it. You know, when you’re out there on—and when I say “on” (air quotes with her fingers) you know, you’re talking to people. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 31 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 And I don’t want people to feel like they can’t approach me. So, I’m very approachable. And that is one of the things that I really do pride myself on. I don’t want anyone to feel like I ever don’t approach—you know, they can’t approach me. And so, one of our community members sent me this message recently and he said to me, “You know,” —his daughter was in the kids mentor, the girls mentor group—and he said “You know,” he goes “it was so cute. My daughter, we were talking about something.” And she’s also a Girl Scout. And he said “Yeah. She says ‘Well, I know the mayor.’” (both laugh) And he’s like “and she was saying this, you know, to my wife and, you know, to—we had friends over and she goes ‘yeah, I know the mayor.’” And he goes “It was the coolest thing because she really felt like she connected with me.” And I’m like “She did connect with me.” and I love that. I love that our kids in the community can feel like they connected with me because I feel like they will never probably forget that. And I oftentimes when I’m places—I actually did this a couple of weeks ago. I was getting some food to go from San Marcos Market. There was a mom and the daughter and I were just kind of talking. And I went out to my car, and I got her one of our city pens and then I said to her, and I say this very often—so, you know, our city emblem is a wayfinding sign, a compass—and I said to her, I said, “Do you know what this is?” I took it back to her. I said, “Do you know what this is?” And she goes, “No.” And I said, “Well, you’ll probably see it on all of our San Marcos signs. It’s a wayfinding sign, so it’s a compass.” And I said, “What it stands for is to discover life’s possibilities. And it’s going to be different for you than it is for me and for your little friends. Every single one of you has something that is your path to success.” And it’s not all— Everyone’s not going to go to a four-year college. I actually didn’t go to a four-year college. But everyone’s going to have a path to success. And I want everyone to know that they’ve got something inside of them that is what their path is and, you know, it might not be traditional. It might be traditional, but it might not. And I want everyone to know that there is their best self. There is a place that is a best self for every single person. And, again, it’s going to be very different for everyone. And, you know, my kids, my daughter just graduated from USD. My son went to Palomar. Totally different kids. Totally different people. But it doesn’t mean that one is going to be more successful than the other. And I want people to know that and believe that in themselves. I didn’t have parents that, you know, tried to make me feel like I could be successful in whatever I did. I honestly believe that my parents just wanted me to get married and have babies. And that was all they really hoped for me. And here I am. I’m the mayor of one of the best cities in the county. And I am so grateful for every moment that I get to spend in the community and encouraging people and spending my time letting them know that we believe in them. We care about them. That’s what my job is in a nutshell. And I know it is kind of back to a different point of what we were talking about. But the truth is every moment that you’re inspiring kids in the community is a win for me. SV: Yeah. RJ: So, those days are the best. And, you know, really I try to—I always carry my pens in the car. I’m like “Wait! Just wait!” I try to throw them, honestly, in my purse sometimes or in my pocket or whatever. I don’t always remember. But I think those moments when you just say that one thing, that could change the trajectory of someone’s life. And I know I remember my fourthgrade teacher, Mrs. Long. Here I am, you know, 56 years old almost. And I remember fourth Transcribed by Melissa Martin 32 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 grade, what she said to me. She said, “You can do bigger things than you think you can.” And I just know that that’s why I am the right person, right now, to do what I’m doing. SV: Yeah. RJ: And I’m so grateful for it. And I really have a hard time believing that I actually am doing this, but I love it. Most days I absolutely love it, SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And there are times when you’re tired and you go “I don’t want to get up today.” But then, you know, you have those days where you really just go “Okay. This is going to fill me in. Now, I can get through another week or whatever.” SV: Mm-hmm. Well, thank you. I think that’s a great sentiment to end our interview on. I did want to ask you just one more question and that is if there’s anything that I should have asked you that I did not. RJ: No, because honestly, you know how I—I think you realize what my style is. (both laugh) if you don’t bring it up and I want to say it, I’ll just bring it in there. So, no, I don’t think so. SV: Okay. RJ: Yeah, I don’t think so. It’s funny. At KUSI, they’re like “Oh, well, we’ll just ask you one question. You just know what to do.” (both laugh) “You know what, you can just get everything you want to say in.” I’m like “Oh, okay. Thanks!” And, you know, by the way, when I was first elected as mayor, I was like “I can’t go on TV! I’m scared to death! I’m going to be sweating. I’m going to be stressed. I’m going to say wrong things.” Like now, I’m like, I laugh about it. You know, what I said. I’m like “Aw, geez. Two thousand twenty-five. What am I saying?” (raises her hands and chuckles) You know, but I used to be really hard on myself. But you know what? I don’t think people really want perfection. They want truth and honesty and authentic. SV: Yeah. RJ: And, you know, I try to be those things. I try to be, you know—I don’t even honestly think about it. I just try not to be guarded when I am—And, you know, if I show up to something, I don’t want to be the person that is like “Cheese!” (motions as if smiling widely for a camera) take a picture and then leave. Like, I’m there to do whatever you need me to do. Like if I need to take out trash, get icky stuff on my hands, I’m going to do it. Like, I want to be fully engaged when I show up to things. And I don’t think every politician is like that. I honestly wish there were more people, not exactly my style, but really having the reason as the reason, as the real reason, you know what I mean? Not like “Oh, I’m looking for my next thing, my next higher office.” (makes air quotes with hands) You know, I am planning on running for county supervisor next. But if I’m not elected, I’m totally fine. I’ve done good. I really do believe that. I really do believe I’ve done good. SV: Yeah. When are you running for county supervisor? RJ: In 2026, when this term is over. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 33 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 SV: Okay. RJ: So, not to worry. I’m not going to skip like in the middle of my term. So, Jim Desmond will be termed out and I’m running for that seat. And, you know, it’s a bigger job but, you know, the good thing is I will get paid for the hours that I work. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And then I have staff. So, I think I can work on the same level, you know, put in the same amount but have more fruit because I have people working for me and I’m actually getting paid for it. So— SV: Yeah. RJ: You know, because we make less than $12,000 a year. I don’t know if you know that. SV: I didn’t know. RJ: Yeah. Yeah. I’m the best value in the county. (both laugh) Everyone’s like—Well, actually a bunch of my friends are like “You’re the hardest working mayor in the whole county!” And I go “Well, you know, yeah.” But, again, I’m not one of those people that shows up and like takes a picture and leaves. That’s just not my thing. SV: Yeah. RJ: I don’t do that. Anyway. Anything else? SV: No. Thank you so much for your time. RJ: Do you feel like you know me now? SV: I do! RJ: Okay, good. SV: I appreciate you spending some time— RJ: Yeah. SV: —talking with us today. And I think this is going to be really valuable to our students and researchers in the future. So, thank you. RJ: Well, again, you know our city has come such a long way. And we really do have a lot to be proud of. And I really do believe that people that live here and I hear it time and time again, showing up at their house and they’re like “I love it here.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: “I love this city. I really wouldn’t live anywhere else.” And, you know, even when they’re upset about things, they still don’t want to leave. They still are very happy. They’re like “But, it’s better than—” You know, blah, blah, blah. Or where else. So, I think, you know, we’ve built a great place. My first house was over behind Fire Station No. 2. (points in front and to the left Transcribed by Melissa Martin 34 2023-12 �REBECCA JONES TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-23 with her left hand) And now I live over off of La Moree. (points behind her right shoulder with her right hand) So, I’ve had three houses over here. So, I’ve owned four houses in the city. SV: Nice. RJ: I’m definitely not leaving. SV: Yeah. RJ: I love it here. SV: Well, thank you, again. I appreciate everything. RJ: Of course, yeah. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 35 2023-12 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jones, Rebecca. Interview transcript, April 12. 2023. Description An account of the resource Mayor Rebecca Jones has been involved in local governance of San Marcos, California since 2005, when she served on the San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force until 2007. Jones served on City Council from 2007 to 2018, winning re-election three times. Jones also served as Vice Mayor from 2012-2018, and was elected as Mayor in 2018 and re-elected in 2022. In addition to her role as Mayor, Jones represents San Marcos on the San Diego Association of Governments (SANDAG) Board of Directors and on the SANDAG executive committee and regional planning committee. Jones also sits on the Countywide Redevelopment Successor Agency Oversight Board. In her oral history, Jones discusses the structure of San Marcos's local government and how it interacts with the San Diego County government. Jones recalls her foray into politics and recounts previous elections as well as her service on the San Marcos Creek Task Force. Jones also offers her perspective on public transit, car transit, bike transit, and microtransit, development in San Marcos, and how the she and city navigated the COVID-19 pandemic. Jones delves into her experience as a woman in politics, and her place as San Marcos's first woman mayor, and offers advice to women interested in a political career. Jones also discusses her podcast, cooking, self-care, and the Boys and Girls Club of San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rebecca Jones Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Melissa Martin Sean Visintainer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-12 Subject The topic of the resource COVID-19 pandemic, 2020-2023 -- Economic aspects COVID-19 pandemic, 2020-2023 -- Government policy Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos Local government -- California -- San Marcos San Diego Association of Governments Women in politics Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Rebecca Jones License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JonesRebecca_VisintainerSean_2023-04-12_transcript Community history North County Oral History Initiative Politics and governance Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rebecca Jones OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JonesRebecca_VisintainerSean_2023-04-12.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Jones, Rebecca. Interview April 12, 2023. SC027-034 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Local government -- California -- San Marcos San Diego Association of Governments Jones, Rebecca San Marcos (Calif.) COVID-19 pandemic, 2020-2023 -- Economic aspects COVID-19 pandemic, 2020-2023 -- Government policy Women in politics San Diego County (Calif.) Rebecca Jones Sean Visintainer JonesRebecca_VisintainerSean_2023-04-12.mp4 1:|18(6)|33(5)|53(4)|69(9)|86(11)|109(10)|129(11)|145(10)|172(2)|201(5)|215(6)|230(13)|251(5)|271(16)|298(10)|317(14)|333(8)|353(7)|370(8)|387(6)|401(3)|416(15)|435(6)|453(11)|492(4)|513(8)|530(9)|549(11)|566(3)|585(8)|605(14)|622(8)|643(5)|677(10)|702(7)|719(4)|732(12)|745(3)|761(8)|777(5)|790(7)|812(9)|826(11)|848(13)|864(14)|878(16)|890(10)|904(2)|919(13)|942(5)|963(4)|975(7)|988(9)|1016(5)|1032(7)|1055(7)|1067(3)|1082(2)|1103(12)|1116(12)|1129(11)|1149(14)|1162(14)|1190(9)|1203(9)|1215(7)|1228(2)|1244(11)|1264(6)|1282(15)|1299(13)|1317(12)|1333(2)|1351(7)|1369(17)|1385(7)|1399(16)|1414(16)|1427(7)|1451(13)|1477(6)|1497(18)|1513(10)|1532(2)|1546(5)|1562(2)|1584(8)|1605(10)|1617(2)|1635(11)|1656(8)|1673(10)|1685(6)|1701(2)|1716(9)|1738(5)|1751(15)|1765(5)|1781(17)|1805(13)|1818(10)|1831(3)|1843(15)|1855(14)|1870(13)|1896(11)|1913(9)|1931(11)|1962(3)|2000(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1997e3f42e3e9c4d984c36d5eded7c44.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of San Marcos, California Mayor Rebecca Jones, by Sean Visintainer, Head of Special Collections, California State University San Marcos. Interview April 12, 2023 at the University Library. 0 50 San Marcos local governance Jones describes where the city's budget comes from, including property tax, sales tax, and via the ownership of property (thanks to status as a charter city). Jones also describes her priorities for her work and for San Marcos city government. local governance ; San Marcos city budget ; charter city 0 236 Structure of San Marcos government Jones outlines the structure of San Marcos city government, and how a City Council Manager government differs from a Strong Mayor model. Jones also speaks to building consensus, and what being a contract city entails, especially in regards to police, and fire departments. 0 569 Identifying needs Jones entails what feedback means to the act of local governance, how she solicits it, saying no, and thinking big picture about priorities and issues. Jones also touches on pandemic operations of parks and trails, supporting small businesses, and customer service. local governance ; COVID 19 pandemic ; small business ; San Marcos Parks and Trails 0 927 Local governance and San Diego County Jones speaks to the differences between county and local government, and how the City of San Marcos works within the county structure. Jones specifically addresses: mental health, SANDAG (San Diego Association of Governments), North County Transit, Vallecitos Water District. Jones elaborates on transit - public transportation, car transit, and microtransit. Jones also elaborates on Innovate 78 and how the organization functions, and is tied to job retention along the 78 corridor (Carlsbad, Oceanside, Vista, San Marcos, and Escondido). SANDAG (San Diego Association of Governments) ; North County Transit ; Vallecitos Water District ; public transportation ; car transit ; microtransit ; Innovate 78 0 1499 Starting in politics Jones recounts how she became involved in politics, through interest in a parks issue and sitting down with city council and receiving encouragement from sitting members of the council. Jones recalls serving on the San Marcos Creek District Task Force, and learning about the process of local governance through that task force. Jones also speaks to being involved in the private sector in real estate and as a business owner. Jones also recounts her feelings towards a couple of development projects and how that spurred her to get involved in politics. local politics ; San Marcos Creek District Task Force 0 1820 Appointment to San Marcos City Council Jones recounts how the process of being appointed to the city council and the council makeup when she was first appointed. Jones outlines the difference between an appointment and an election.&#13 ; Jim Desmond ; Pia Harris-Ebert ; Betty Evans ; San Marcos City Council 0 2077 Running for election and re-election Jones recounts some experiences from her previous elections interacting with constituents and with a difficult election. Jones speaks to the emotional toll an election can have on a candidate, and how she participates in self-care. elections ; self-care 0 2629 Cycling for transit and recreation Jones speaks to her experience on SANDAG and offers her perspective on bike lanes and cycling to facilitate transit and recreation. Jones also speaks to different styles of bike lanes, motorist and cyclist education, and eBikes, especially in regards to schoolchildren.&#13 ; bike lanes ; cycle tracks ; sharrows ; splits ; eBikes 0 3051 San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force and North City Jones discuss the goal of the task force, management of the Creek, and development of the Creek District. Jones also discusses development in North City (San Marcos, originally conceived of as a university district).&#13 ; San Marcos Creek District ; San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force ; Gary London ; public/private partnerships ; North City ; Belgian Waffle Ride 0 3490 More development in San Marcos Jones elaborates on additional development in the works in San Marcos, including medical offices and a hospital, and the Discovery Road extension, traffic, and flooding. &#13 ; Scripps Hospital ; Kaiser Hospital ; Kaiser Permanente ; Discovery Road ; traffic congestion ; healthcare 0 3844 Running for San Marcos Mayor Jones recalls the decision process of deciding to run for mayor, and speaks to being San Marcos's first woman mayor, as well as her mentors.&#13 ; Pia Harris-Ebert ; Hal Martin 0 4056 Business closures during the pandemic Jones discusses the difficulties small businesses in San Marcos encountered during the pandemic and supporting small businesses in San Marcos.&#13 ; COVID-19 pandemic ; small business 0 4244 The COVID-19 Pandemic Jones discusses what she and the city did during the pandemic to lessen the burden on San Marcos citizens. Jones discusses the city's rainy day fund, sending out small business loans (which were turned into grants), moving businesses outside, facilitating permits and bureaucracy for businesses in the process of opening, and advocacy to the governor. Jones also discusses keeping outside recreation open, nonprofit assistance, supporting schoolchildren, and mental health. Jones also enumerates how part of her job entails being emotionally available and supportive for constituents, and helping communities move forward from trauma. &#13 ; COVID-19 pandemic ; business and regulation ; outdoor recreation ; American Rescue Plan Act (ARPA) ; mental health ; trauma 0 4914 Other qualities of Jones's work Jones discusses additional qualities of her day-to-day work, including being a civic booster, reading and preparation, and empathy.&#13 ; Jeff Zevely ; Channel 8 ; Prohoroff Chicken Ranch ; Hollandia Dairy 0 5228 Women in politics Jones discusses her experiences as a woman in politics, including bias and harassment. Jones also discusses her podcast, SheEO, about elevating women, and Jones's advice to women entering politics. &#13 ; women politicians ; SheEO podcast 0 5734 San Marcos youth Jones discusses her work at the Boys and Girls Club of San Marcos and engagement with San Marcos youth.&#13 ; Boys and Girls Club of San Marcos ; Highway 78 flooding ; San Marcos Market ; American Rescue Plan Act (ARPA) 0 6352 Next steps and interview close Jones discusses her personal political style, the next steps in her career, and the love she has for the city of San Marcos. San Marcos ; San Diego County Supervisor 0 Mayor Rebecca Jones has been involved in local governance of San Marcos, California since 2005, when she served on the San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force until 2007. Jones served on City Council from 2007 to 2018, winning re-election three times. Jones also served as Vice Mayor from 2012-2018, and was elected as Mayor in 2018 and re-elected in 2022. In addition to her role as Mayor, Jones represents San Marcos on the San Diego Association of Governments (SANDAG) Board of Directors and on the SANDAG executive committee and regional planning committee. Jones also sits on the Countywide Redevelopment Successor Agency Oversight Board.&#13 ; &#13 ; In her oral history, Jones discusses the structure of San Marcos's local government and how it interacts with the San Diego County government. Jones recalls her foray into politics and recounts previous elections as well as her service on the San Marcos Creek Task Force. Jones also offers her perspective on public transit, car transit, bike transit, and microtransit, development in San Marcos, and how the she and city navigated the COVID-19 pandemic. Jones delves into her experience as a woman in politics, and her place as San Marcos's first woman mayor, and offers advice to women interested in a political career. Jones also discusses her podcast, cooking, self-care, and the Boys and Girls Club of San Marcos. Sean Visintainer: Okay. This is Sean Visintainer and I’m here today with Mayor Rebecca Jones of San Marcos, California, doing an oral history interview for the Oral History Special Collections Project at Cal State San Marcos. Today is April 12th. We’re doing the interview in the University library. Mayor Jones, thank you so much for joining us today. Mayor Rebecca Jones: Oh, it’s my pleasure. SV: I wanted to start off just by asking you some questions about local government. And I think that it’s something that maybe is a little, at times, opaque to people. And so, I was just curious because local government can look really different depending upon the municipality. For people that are going to watch this video, researchers in the future, could you describe a little bit about how local government in San Marcos happens? RJ: Well, it used to be the great mystery. So, when I actually got involved with the city, I had no idea how local government worked. So, I tried to remember and put myself from that perspective as being just a resident and making things easier. And so, what we do, essentially, is we spend taxpayer money— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —that is from different sources. Most of it is from sales tax. That’s actually where we have our largest amount of money to spend for the residents. But then we also have property tax. And most people don’t know this but out of all of the counties in the city, I believe we are the lowest city that has the smallest share of property tax. So, out of every dollar we get 7.2¢. So, if you look at just that in itself, it really is very important for us to figure out other ways to actually generate revenue. So, we are a charter city. And a charter city allows us to actually have property that we own which is owned by the residents of the city of San Marcos. And all of that revenue that we actually have coming in—so Creekside Marketplace would be an example of that as well as City Hall—but all of that money actually helps augment the very low sales tax that we have. SV: Okay. So, I assume then you have to be very fiscally responsible. RJ: Very fiscally responsible. And so, anyway, our job as a local government is to spend your money wisely ; keep you safe which is, honestly, our number one concern in my opinion—it always has been—and then also making sure we have a good quality of life for people. And so, you know, during my time on the council, I always again, you know, try to remember as a resident what is important to our residents. And I actually—this is kind of crazy but when I am campaigning which, you know, I’ve won five elections now— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —when I’m out campaigning, I actually enjoy the part of knocking on a stranger’s door and knowing that I’m going to get some feedback that I might not ever get otherwise. And so, I think it’s really important for me to always remember that part of local government, who you’re serving, which is the residents of the city, but also keeping everyone safe whether you own a business, whether you live here, or whether you’re visiting here. We want to make sure that we have that as our highest priority and, you know, people can drive safely through our community, come and shop here. If they’re already passing through San Marcos, which a lot of people do, we want them to, you know, spend a little more money and enjoy themselves. So, just keeping all of that in perspective is always at the front of what I’m always thinking and part of what my leadership is and, you know, just having again a good quality of life where people love to visit, live here, and, you know, a good place to call home. SV: Mm-hmm. Can you speak a little bit to how the process of government works, the City Council, the other people that are involved, the Deputy Mayor, yourself? RJ: Yeah. So, essentially, there is a City Council Manager style government. So, you might hear about like a strong Mayor. It’s not that. There’s only one city in the entire county that has that and that’s the city of San Diego. But a Council Manager form of government, local government, means that there are five council people. We pretty much have the same authority. However, I can put anything on the agenda which I have done in the past. But also, you know, I work very closely with the City Manager. I don’t really have any extra authority. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: There’s a few little things but nothing major. And so, there are five of us that really have to look out for the best of what’s going on in the community. And we actually started districts back in 2018 and that actually changed things a bit, because that was the first time where we had councilmembers that were working specifically and being elected specifically in one area of the city. So, we have four districts and I’m at-large, so I’m elected by the entire city. And so, each one of us, you know, we have things that are important to us. We bring them forward. And then we try to get a consensus on them. My job is to make sure we’re all getting along— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —making sure that everyone’s voice is heard, and then also making sure that, you know, we always are remembering, even if you’re not representing technically District 1, for instance, that really District 2, 3, and 4 also matter. And, you know, we only have a certain amount of money, and we really need to make sure that we’re, you know, spending money where the greatest need is but also not just focusing on one part of the city. SV: Yeah. You spoke about consensus building, and I think that’s really interesting since it seems like a lot of decision making has to be shared decision making in San Marcos. How do you go about building consensus? RJ: Well, the biggest, most important thing, in my opinion, is not being political. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, once you bring political parties into it, you really just spoil everything, to be honest. And so, my job has always been as I’ve seen it is to be apolitical, for the most part. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And then also making sure that we are, you know, again spending money wisely and, you know, really addressing all of the needs and the wishes in the community. And making sure that everyone feels that they’re part of the city is also good, you know. It’s doing well. It’s safe. It’s very important for everyone, like I said, to be safe. I think that has always been super important but even more now than ever because there are a lot of people that don’t feel safe. You know, our world has changed. Laws are not the same that they used to be. And so, it’s really important to make sure that, again, your funding, your fire department, and then also your sheriff deputies—we are a contract city, which let me speak to that for just one moment. SV: Sure. RJ: I’ve had a lot of people during, you know, the downturn in the economy and, you know, during a lot of political things that have happened, saying to me, “Should we have our own police force?” Well, we actually still are one of the cities that has the lowest crime rate in the entire county. And so, that’s an important thing. Are we—what is the need? What is the problem? And so, you know, starting our own department would be very expensive, probably $3-4 million dollars. And, if it’s not broken, why fix it? SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, we actually are very lucky that we have some great captains that have come in. We have them for about two or three years, max. But they always end up being the cream of the crop. They end up moving on and actually being maybe an under-Sheriff or, you know, an assistant Sheriff. And so, you know, we really have had some great, you know, leaders in our Sheriff department. But a lot of people like to come back to our city. They might come here as a young Deputy, move on, and then they like to come back because it is a good place. We do have an excellent relationship with them, with the City Council and the Sheriff Department. And so, I think that really is very telling that, again, back to “if it’s not broken, why try to fix it when you’re doing very well.” And that’s, you know, one of the things that I think you do need to always keep in mind is, when things are going well, pay attention to what actually is working. You don’t have to change everything just for the sake of changing it. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But you also don’t need to have things that you look at and say, “Well, we’ve been doing it that way twenty years, the same way, and it doesn’t work.” That’s when you need to pay attention. So, anyway, I’m very happy with our sheriff deputies and then also our fire department too, because they really do bring a sense of wellbeing to our community. SV: Yeah. We had to call the fire department— RJ: Oh no! SV: —not too long ago. They responded very promptly. They— RJ: Good. SV: —were wonderful. RJ: Okay! Well, that’s good to know. SV: So, we were very happy with how they did. RJ: Yeah. Good. SV: So, you talked about identifying change and maybe not needing change for the purpose of making change. RJ: Right. Yeah. That’s it in a nutshell. SV: I’m a little bit—I was curious how you identify need. So, it’s important to see what doesn’t need to be changed. But how do you go about recognizing where there is a need? RJ: Well, a lot of it has to do with feedback, to be honest. I mean, really, if you see something that maybe isn’t going as well as you had hoped, I mean a lot of it has to do with how people are feeling in the community. Do they feel like their voices are being heard? And their voice is being heard doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re getting everything that they want. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Sometimes, you have to say no. And, you know, that’s the big picture. We have nearly 100,000 people and we have—you know, that live here full-time, and we’ve got about 40,000 students that are coming in, that go to CSU, to Palomar College and all of our other higher learning institutions. It’s a lot of people. That’s really about 140,000 people that are, you know, coming into our city every day, whether they live here full-time or not. You know, you have to figure out how you serve them. So, again, you know, are you providing opportunities for them to actually enjoy themselves, have recreation. You know, we are actually known for our parks, which I think is really important at keeping people out and active. And, you know, during the pandemic for instance, many of the cities were closing their trails and their parks. We followed the health orders, but we kept our trails open, and we kept our parks, for the most part, open. We did close our climbing structures and that sort of thing. But we always felt that it was very important to keep people out and active and having those opportunities because mental well-being is important in a community. But then, also having opportunities for people to open businesses. And you know, one of the things that I’ve been talking about for years—and this year it is our first time ; we’re actually calling it one of our goals— and that’s concierge service, that is the customer experience because the customers are the community. And then, also, the business owners, when they come into City Hall, do they feel welcomed? Do they feel like it’s easy for them? They get the support that they need to open a business. Or, if they’re making changes to their property or something like that, are we doing everything we can? And, again, do they have that concierge experience? And so, we’re doing a lot of different things. We actually are just launching something in the next couple of weeks that will help people understand more about conditional use permits and opening businesses and finding out where their dream can come true of opening a business in the city and where it’s actually available to already open pretty easily, or where it might take a little more work on their end. And so, you know, we just are trying to always make that experience a little bit better. And, you know, I’m really proud of all the work that we’ve done since I’ve been on the council. This is my 17th year on the city council. And so, it’s been a long time. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I remember when I first joined the council, I was the only woman at the time. And I remember saying “Well, you know it would be great if we had good customer service.” And at the time, that did not go over very well (Sean chuckles). There was this “Well, what is that all about?” And, you know, now if you look forward, you know, to where we are today and how important that is to us, we’ve changed a lot. And so, you know, again, changing things that you identify as having issues and it’s not just what I think. A lot of it really does have to do with getting feedback from our community. SV: Mm-hmm. How do you solicit feedback? RJ: Well, I try to make as many—myself—as available as possible. And, you know, we talked about this a little bit earlier about, you know, being available. This is a full-time job. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: It could happen in a grocery store. It could be happening at the park. Wherever I am, I know that it is important for me to be available. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, Chamber of Commerce events. Really anywhere is a way. I have a very open-door policy, emails, social media, even though I don’t love social media. It does offer a way for people to connect with me. And so, I think, again, that is really important. You know, and then my cell phone. I have it on my cards. I give it to everyone. I have a lot of people that just reach out to me and say, “You know what? I met you at this event. You gave me your card because I asked for it. I didn’t really feel comfortable discussing this with you. But here’s what I’m thinking.” And I think that is, in itself, being a mayor of the people. Being available is so important. And, again, you know back to the point that I made a little earlier as well, and that is being as apolitical as possible. I really do believe that that’s the best way that you can serve your community. Not making anyone feel left out and bringing everyone together and being that consensus builder is really important. So, I work very wholeheartedly and very diligently at doing that. SV: Yeah. So, you’re pretty much always on duty. RJ: I am. SV: Yeah. RJ: I am which, you know, makes it difficult. It is a hard job— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —to do, you know, pretty much all day every day. But, you know, I have to say I look around the city and I do have to pinch myself sometimes, thinking “You know, I was a part of that.” And “Oh, I was a part of that.” I mean, I really am proud of what our community has become. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, and we really have grown significantly. We are a college town. And then, you know, we’ve really done a good job, I think, at juggling following state mandates, making sure, again you know, our community is a good place to call home, also to do business in. You know, it really encompasses a lot of different things. But I’ve been very intentional about, you know, making the things that are important to our residents important to me as well. SV: Mm-hmm. Could you talk a little bit about how the city government functions within the larger context of, I guess, the county? RJ: Oh yeah. SV: You know, how the different municipalities interact and then how the county government as well, functions with the city. RJ: So, all mental health is handled through the county. That’s probably the biggest difference of the county and then cities. So, there are 18 cities plus the county. And then what we have is several different, you know, regional groups that we are, you know, part of. So, one being SANDAG which is mainly transportation. And then you’ve got also North County Transit which is for North County. And it’s our transit operator. And so, and then there’s like the water—we don’t actually have our own water department. So, Vallecitos Water District handles that. We are a little different than some cities. Like the city of Carlsbad, they also serve the water as well. But we don’t do that. You know, just really the biggest thing is when we’re on a board together, you have to wear a regional hat. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You have to figure out—because we don’t work independently as silos. We do work together. You know, when you look at transportation in itself, you know a lot of people drive cars, about 97% of the county, about only 2-3% honestly actually use transit. It’s not a system that actually runs often enough for it to be, you know, serving most people for their lives. Plus, a lot of people have lifestyles that really it doesn’t fit within their lifestyles. But then there are a lot of people—well, not a lot, but the people that do use public transit, they really do rely on it. So, we need to figure out how to serve everyone. And so, you know, is there a possibility of having a transit system that actually can attract more riders? I believe so. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But it also relies on people making that shift. We need to make sure it’s safe. There is a lot of people that believe that only people that are homeless ride on public transit. That’s not the case. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Though there are some. I’m not going to pretend that there isn’t. There definitely are. But how do we make it more meaningful and easier for people to use it? So, we do need a balanced transportation system like I said. And that’s not punishing car drivers and trying to force them out of their cars. It’s not going to happen. Many people, especially people I think with kids, really rely on that, you know, getting their kids where they need to go. And I, you know, my kids—I have, well, I’ll just give you an example. I had a soccer player and she played competitive soccer, my daughter. And then my son was a surfer. And so, two very, very different, you know, life sorts of things that they like to do. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, for me, I was always driving. I was always driving, you know, a big SUV because usually I was like “Hey, you know what? I’ll pick up your kids too.” So, you know, for practices and all of that for my daughter, I did a lot of carpooling. With my son, not so much because he wanted to go, you know, when he wanted to go. So, you know, I’d go and try to run errands while he was at the beach. And then I’d go back and pick him up. So, you know, a lot of different lifestyles have different needs. And, you know, so that’s one of the things that I always try to mention when I’m on that SANDAG committee. I’m on the Board of Directors as Mayor. And I try to say, “Remember. Let’s not forget about, you know, the parents. Let’s not forget about our retirees. We really do need a transportation program that fits everyone’s needs.” And it is tricky. But I think it can be done. But our new regional plan, I think that it really does punish car drivers in a lot of ways. And we really need to bring more transit, in my opinion, up to North County. And what I’ve been talking about for quite some time, and it actually will be rolling out pretty soon, is having micro-transit within cities because that is a way for you to actually get where you need to go within the city. It’s not going to take you to work or anything like that. But, you know, on your short trips, you know, getting for instance our kids to school because the school district has very little busing. They are starting to bring some of it back. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But that really is only for the elementary kids. So, you know, the older kids, the middle-schoolers, the high schoolers, how do you get them to school in a meaningful way? And I think micro-transit is a way to do that. But it’s also a way for people like if you want to go out and have dinner, have that glass of wine. You don’t have to drink and drive! You don’t have to call an Uber. If you’ve got a system that actually is on demand, it will meet those needs. And I think it would serve our community better. So, I think having more conversations about, you know, different aspects of a transportation plan that fits really the needs of the community like micro-transit and then also autonomous vehicles. They are the future more than I think fixed rail or fixed routes on buses. I think it really does lend better to peoples’ lifestyles. So, you know, keeping that in mind, that’s what we do at SANDAG. But then also at North County Transit. It’s all about the same things that I just mentioned about transit. But, you know, working with other cities it happens a lot. We also have something on the 78 corridor that is something that not the rest of the nation has. I think it’s one of a kind. And it is that cities work together. And so, Innovate 78 started. And it was really about attracting business to the region. I call us the “upside” of San Diego because we’re North County. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: We’re very close to Riverside and to Orange County. And, you know, we really have a different bit of lifestyle. A lot of people that really enjoy the urban living don’t really enjoy it as much in North County. But we also, you know, we have a lot of space for jobs and, you know, we also have a lot of homes. And so, a lot of people, you know, North County is a little more affordable. As you get east of the 5, it, you know, gets a little more affordable. East of the 15 is a little more affordable. But, you know, also trying to figure out how to balance, again, the transportation, getting people to work, and all of that is a consideration. But, you know, when you have large cities like Carlsbad where they have a lot of jobs, where are those people going to live? Well, a lot of them do live in San Marcos, for instance, or Vista. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, you know, Innovate 78 was all about trying to figure out how to attract businesses. If the city of Vista has a business or the city of San Marcos has a business within our city, we can’t find the proper amount of land for them because they want to grow. We work together and our Economic Development Directors work together to figure out where can we move them to stay in North County, so they don’t have to disrupt their workforce, so they don’t have to disrupt their lifestyles. How can we work together to make that happen? And it has been very successful. I’m very proud of the work that we’ve done. And, you know, it has been recognized that we have done some really good work together. SV: Yeah. So, is Innovate 78 like a—is it a formalized structure? Do you have meetings that happen on a regular basis? Or is it more of a—I don’t know exactly what I’m trying to ask you here. RJ: I know what you’re trying to—So, we don’t have—Okay. So, there are quarterly meetings where it’s the mayors, generally, but not always, and council members. So, they kind of cycle in. And then they’re hosted in all the different cities. That’s a quarterly thing. But our Economic Development Directors and staff work actually—they do have monthly meetings. So, they do work together on a very, very regular basis. And, you know, that, again—You know, we’re policy makers. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, it’s not imperative that we are there all the time, you know, at a monthly meeting or something like that. It is when it comes to transportation like SANDAG but not with Innovate 78. And again, you know, there’s a lot of work that has gotten done where, you know, businesses rather than them, you know, locate elsewhere like another county or something like that or, you know, maybe in South County, we’ve been able to keep and retain them here in North County which is a good thing. SV: Yeah. That is a good thing. RJ: Yeah. SV: You talked about micro-transit. I just wanted to clarify what that is in case it becomes available. RJ: Oh, micro-transit is like a small shuttle sort of bus. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Not a big full-sized bus but more of a smaller bus. And it would be—and what North County transit is going to be—Have you ever seen the Carlsbad Connector? SV: I haven’t. RJ: Okay. Well, it’s kind of a, it’s a smaller bus and it would be on demand. That will be rolling out in San Marcos. SV: Okay. RJ: Through North County Transit. SV: Okay. When will that roll out? RJ: Actually, sometime probably fall or early next year. SV: Very cool! RJ: Yeah. SV: I wanted to ask you a little bit about your journey into politics. RJ: Oh my gosh! Yes. Everyone says, “What made you— SV: Yeah! RJ: “—want to be in politics?” Well, I could tell you this much. I never did. (laughs) It’s one of those things that I just kind of fell into. And so, what ended up happening is I was a young mom, and really, I didn’t even know how local government worked. I didn’t know what city government handled. I didn’t know anything about anything. And there was a public notice in the park next to my home. And, you know, I had a baby at home and a four-year-old. And I was like “What’s going on? What is happening?” you know. And some of my neighbors were saying “Oh, we don’t want this in our park.” And I said, “Well, what’s even going on?” And then, as I started delving into it and I got more information and I actually figured out what was going on, I went “Yeah. I don’t like that for the park either. I’m not in love with that.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, it really was being involved. I sat down with all of the council members at the time and I had two council members, a Republican and a Democrat, say to me, “Rebecca, you should get involved in politics.” And I said, “I have you. Why would I do that?” And they said, “Well, we’re definitely not going to be doing it forever.” I think both of them were probably right around 20-25 or 24 years, you know, being involved in the city. And I was like “Why? Why won’t you do this forever?” And they said, “Well, you know, it’s a big job. However, when you really want to help shape the community, it’s a good thing.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, I had both of them, you know, talk me into it. First they kind of “voluntold” me. And I actually first joined the San Marcos Creek District Task Force, originally. And I thought that was really interesting because I learned a lot about land use, a lot about, you know, just creating spaces where people could come and, you know, congregate, and really making a community a place where people can, you know, meet up with their friends and, you know, have those restaurants and those spaces that are, you know, beautiful and, you know, signature to the community, very unique. And I really liked that. And so, I was like “Okay. Well, I do like this.” And I have to tell you, my background is that I was a new home sales agent when I was in my early twenties. SV Mm-hmm. RJ: And then, my ex and I started a furniture marketing company which became very successful. We had customers. We started out with zero sales. We actually built that into a $100 million dollars a year in sales with Walmart, Costco, BestBuy as some of our customers. So, it was a pretty lucrative business. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But, you know, it was really hard. And I remember when he came home one day from work, he said, “You know, we’re going to start our own business.” And I went “We??” And, you know, at that time we only had one child and he was one. And he said, “Yes. You’re going to do all of the business part of it. And I’m just going to do the sales.” And I went “Oh. Okay.” And I go “You know, I don’t know how to work a computer.” And he said, “Nah, that’s okay. You’re smart. You could figure it out.” And that’s, you know, that’s really how it started. And so, I’ve always been kind of a, you know, very I would say involved person. If someone, you know, gives me a challenge or a task, I will go all in, and I’ll make sure I’ll do a good job. I’m very conscientious. And so, that really is how it started. Started out, you know, had that background of business in my, you know, my marriage and owning it. And then, I just went “Well, you know what? It’s time for me to give back. It’s time for me to be part of the solution rather than, you know, trying to stop things that are happening, you know as far as development goes.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, there were a couple of other things. The second Walmart, I didn’t agree with that. I didn’t think the placement was correct. And then there was the Robertson’s Ready-Mix batch plant over on Barham. And I said “Yeah. This is negative. I’d rather be positive.” I don’t like negativity, as you could probably tell. I’m a very positive person. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And you know what? I just knew that it was probably the right thing to do. And so, I ended up actually applying for an appointment because my ex had gotten sick in 2006. So, I wasn’t able to run a campaign that year. And I applied for the appointment in 2007. I was selected. And then I have run five campaigns since then and been elected five times. So, I must be doing something right. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Always been the top vote getter, even if it was for two seats and, you know, I would say that no one outworks me. No one immerses themselves more into trying to be involved and prepared. And so, I think that sets me apart because I really am not a politician. I’m just a person that loves the community and wants to give back and has found a way that I can do that. SV: And you said that you applied for the appointment for city council, if I’m understanding correctly. RJ: Correct. SV: So, what is that process like? RJ: Boy, was that fun. I’m just kidding. (both laugh) So, you filled out an application and then you talked about your experience and what you wanted to bring to the table. And at that time, it was an interesting time. So, Jim Desmond had just been elected as mayor. And, you know, it was—there were four men on the council. Pia Harris-Sebert was our first woman ever elected to the city council. And she was the first woman, but she was really the only woman for quite a while. We did have Betty Evans that, I think, served one or two terms in between. But she wasn’t on there. And so, it was really—there were four men left on the city council. And, you know, Jim Desmond was talking about diversity back then. And, you know, he said, you know, I like what Rebecca brings to the table, the business background, which is really important. And I think everyone should have at least some sort of background as far as how you spend money. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, it’s—you don’t have a ton of money to spend and, you know, really being able to figure out how to best spend that. You know, when you’re a business owner and especially when you’re starting out a business, you are pretty much trying to figure out how you’re not going to starve. And so, that really does bring an interesting perspective, I think, to the table. Anyway, and so, I was selected. There were 27 applicants. I got up to the podium and one of the council members actually had a lot of disagreements with me. He was supportive of the second Walmart. And, you know, he brought that up. He said “Well, you know, Walmart, they’re one of your customers. They must be very forgiving because you didn’t agree with the second Walmart.” And I said, “Well, you know, it doesn’t mean that I’m against Walmart. It just meant that I didn’t think the location was okay.” And those two things—you can still feel both things and believe in both things. It doesn’t mean that you don’t like Walmart. I mean, there are a lot of people in my community that love Walmart. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, whether I’m a Walmart shopper or not, a lot of people want to shop there. And so, you know, I think it’s really important that you have a good mix of businesses. And, you know, I think I brought that to the table. But I also, you know, brought forward the part of—I really cared about, you know, being able to represent everyone. And I think I’ve been—It has been a very valuable voice at that table. SV: Mm-hmm. So, there’s not an election process for city council? Or there wasn’t at that time? RJ: Not for an appointment. No, not for an appointment. SV: Oh, because Desmond— RJ: Because I’m in an appointment. SV: Okay. Gotcha. RJ: Yeah. So, right now, there is a supervisor seat that is going to be vacated. So, there would be an opportunity for either an appointment or a special election. At that time, a special election was gauged to be around $300,000. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: It’s very expensive. If you can come up with an agreement on an appointment, it makes sense, if you can come to an agreement. But it doesn’t always happen. SV: Yeah. So— RJ: And, you know, a lot of people have been appointed and have not been able to get elected. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I think there were people that actually spoke against my appointment that when they saw what I did in my first two years, before I had my first election, they went “Wow. Okay.” And they’ve been some of my biggest supporters, to be honest. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, that does actually feel good because people do recognize how hard I work. It does feel good to have that recognized. SV: Yeah. So, then you ran for reelection then around 2009 or so? RJ: 2008— SV: 2008. RJ: —then ’12, and then ’16. I was elected as a woman’s—or as a first woman mayor in our city— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —to ever serve as mayor in 2018. And then, I was reelected last year, in 2022. SV: So, what does an election look like from your perspective when you’ve decided—let’s take your first time that you’re going after your appointment when you’re going to be reelected or elected to the city council? RJ: Oh, boy. It’s a lot of fun. So, first of all, you know, you need to raise money. So, do people believe in you? Because they’re not going to definitely, you know, donate to your campaign if they don’t believe in you. So, the good thing is I did have a record and I was able to point back to that. But not only was I able to point back to that, I was able to point back to the success in my business, how hard I’d worked, and all of those things. And, you know, it’s really important, I think, that you do connect to the community because at the end of the day you can raise all the money in the world but if you don’t have the votes, it’s really irrelevant. And so, can you get—And, you know, every single time—and I’ve run five elections—I’ve thought, “Oh my gosh. I’m losing. I’m losing!” (throws her head back and laughs) I’ve had, you know, like—I remember my first campaign. Oh my gosh. I showed up to this one woman’s house. This is really deflating. And she says to me “Oh, I already voted. And I didn’t vote for you.” (Sean chuckles) And I went “Oh. Okay.” (chuckles) And then I walked away, and I thought “Shoot! You know, why didn’t she even give me a chance to tell her about myself.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, so it’s a very humbling experience. And, honestly, I would say equally humbling is actually serving because really, you know, to have people believe in you and when they say to you, “You know what? I love what you’re doing in our community” it really does feel amazing because, again, you know back to your hard work but also, I do love the community. And I do want it to be the best that it possibly can be. And so having that part acknowledged is really important to me too. But, again, very humbling. And, you know, so every single campaign I’m like “Okay. Well, if I just go by what people are saying at the doors, I’m winning! Like I’m winning!” And then I’m like “That could not be how it is. They could just be saying that to me.” And so, you know, it really is a hard thing. And not everyone can put themselves out there. It’s nerve wracking. On that election night, you’re going “Okay. Waiting for the first numbers to come up. What’s it going to be?” And, you know, I have to say my fifth election, you know this last one, it was very ugly. It was very unfair because I was, you know—it was a smear campaign, honestly, on my integrity and what I had done for all these years and trying to paint me into a box. I don’t fit into a box. I’m going to be totally honest about that. I don’t fit into a box. I’m not a politician, don’t want to be a politician. I want to be a civic leader and someone that will read everything and make good decisions for the best of everyone. And, you know, you’re not going to make everyone happy. That part is kind of hard in elected office. But if you’re making most people happy and you’ve got a safe community, a thriving community, at the end of the day that’s all you can really hope for and, you know, again making most people happy but there are going to be some people that don’t like you. I’ve had people actually comment about what I look like which is very insulting. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: What I look like has nothing to do with the kind of job that I do. And, you know, trying to call me little nicknames and that sort of thing, I’m not a robot. I am a person so it does hurt a bit. But, you know, at the end of the day I do remember, you know, some people aren’t going to like me. That’s okay. I just know, at the end of the day really, if I go to bed and I know that I’ve done a good job that day, I wake up the next day and it’s a new day and, you know, I can let things go which it does take that in this job. You do have to let a lot of things go. You know, the personal insults really don’t matter, I guess, at the end. But, you know, I’m not a robot so it does affect me a bit. And, you know, you do have to really remember just to stay true to yourself. And I really am very proud that I have done that. SV: Yeah. What is your process for self-care when you’re having a negative day or a stressful time? RJ: Well, as I mentioned earlier, I have to get to the gym. I mean, I’m just one of those people, if I don’t get enough exercise I will literally overthink things. And so, for me, I’m really getting to the gym. And my gym! Oh, gosh. So, during Covid, closed down in San Marcos. And I was like “Okay. I’m going to go to another one of them.” It was in Encinitas. But I really am very specific because it’s not a super long workout and I can do it whenever, you know, pretty much during, you know, business hours. But I like to be able to go and punch bags (laughs) and kick bags. It’s a kickbox workout. So, I’m not like punching someone. I don’t want to do that. But I do, you know—it’s a kickbox workout. So, now, I found another one. It’s in Rancho Bernardo. So, it’s not in the city which can be kind of beneficial because, you know, I’m not sweaty and looking like a mess. And then, you know, if I’m like I’m punching and I’m having an especially frustrating day, I can do that. The other thing I really love to do is hike. I admittedly have not hiked in a very long time. I actually, a few years ago, hiked in the Tetons. So, I had to do a lot of training for that. So, I was out on the trails two and three times a week which it’s actually better for me when I can find that time. The job is very, you know, —it does entail a lot of time for me. So, it is tough for me to actually do that during the day. And, you know, when we have rainy weather, that doesn’t help. Or weather that’s too hot, that doesn’t help. So, you know, really trying to find the time to at least do that. And then I love to cook. So, during the pandemic, I started cooking for a few elderly people. And so, I have some folks that I cook for. And when I need a mental health moment, I just go in my kitchen and I just cook up a storm and several meals and I mean soups and I just try lots of different, new recipes and find things that I can tweak and make my own. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: But those are the things that I do. I do try to do that. I don’t get massages. I really need a massage many times though. I don’t really take the time to do that. So, really, the biggest thing is exercise and then getting that cooking in. You know, and then everyone benefits from it. SV: Yeah. RJ: Because I’m actually not a bad cook, so— (chuckles) SV: So, what’s your best dish? RJ: Oh, gosh. Well, that has evolved. I don’t know. I’ve become quite the soup maker. But I do have my tried and true. I’m really good at prime rib and au gratin potatoes. My kids are always like “Mom” —and, you know, they’re older. They’re twenty. Actually my daughter will be 23 in a few weeks, and my son just turned 27. You know, whenever they, you know, want a good meal, they’re like “Mom. Could you make this? Or can you make that?” and then I made chicken fingers for the first time ever. And they’re like “Mom. These are like the best I’ve ever had.” So, anyway, I’m like “Well, I could teach you how to do it.” And so, you know, I’ve had them over a couple of times and, you know, teaching people to cook, honestly is—You know, there are a lot of people that don’t cook in this world, and I think, you know, the less we eat processed food, the better it is for us. And so, I like to, you know—I cook almost solely organic. I try not to eat heavily processed food. I think it’s better for me. You know, I’m going to be 56 next year—Oh, oh my gosh. Not next year. This year! Oh, gosh! In a few weeks. Oh, gosh, about a month. So, yeah. I’ll be 56. You know, I think our bodies can actually be healthier and mentally better when we’re, you know, putting the right food in them and then also getting exercise too. So, I try to definitely do all that to take care of myself. I know that’s a long story but those are the things that I do. (chuckles) SV: Yeah. Well, thank you for answering. And I asked the food question because I used to be a chef. So, I’m always interested to know about people’s experiences. RJ: Oh, wow! Nice. Nice. SV: And then exercise, I agree. I mean, it’s so important. I think to bring it back to our interview, you know, something that I take advantage of is the bike lanes. RJ: Oh, yeah. SV: And I was curious as to what your—You know, you’ve talked about transit. You’ve talked about micro-transit and, you know, what your priorities are in terms of pedestrian and two-wheeled transit as well. RJ: Yeah. Thanks for asking that. So, actually, at SANDAG, this is kind of interesting, I had actually voted against spending $140, I think it was $140 million dollars on bike lanes. And I had one of our residents send me a message. And he said, “You’re the worst mayor ever!” And I was like “Oh. Wow.” And he said, “I can’t believe how you don’t like cyclists.” And I said, “Well, that’s not exactly how that went.” And so, I explained, you know, that there’s no reason that bike lanes should be costing $5 million dollars a mile. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: That’s way too expensive. There’s no way that should be happening on a road that is literally already there. So, I said, you know, I had an issue with that. I have a real problem spending money in a wasteful way. And, you know, so I said, “Hey, let’s meet.” I sat down with him. He’s now a fan and definitely not, you know, against me any longer because he didn’t really know all of the reasons that I felt the way that I felt. I think getting input from cyclists is really important. You know, again, back to the point that we have 72 miles of, you know, trails. Those are often times, you know, available for cyclists and, you know, pedestrians, hikers, even horses because we still have horses in San Marcos. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, I am really proud about that. The one thing that, you know, I’ve done a lot of research on the different types of bike lanes, and I’m not sold on the cycle tracks. A lot of times the very serious cyclists are saying to me, “Rebecca, they’re very dangerous because you are confined in a space.” They look safe. Maybe for kids they’re safe. But they’re very expensive, first of all. And they really are not super safe because if you hit that curb for whatever reason, you could be thrown off of your bicycle and end up in the middle of a lane. That’s not very safe. Or there is a lot of crashes if you’ve got like—you know, most cyclists are in packs. Hardly anyone goes by themselves. I have a lot of friends that are very serious cyclists that, since this whole thing came forward, I’ve actually just from my friend group—and I do have some serious cyclists now in it. And they don’t really like those tracks. So, in my opinion, any time that we can have a sharrow, which is the bike lane that is a full lane with cyclists in it and then a car only lane, I think that’s probably a really good idea. Any time we can have a split because you’re not limited on space or real estate and have, you know, a separate bike lane that’s by itself but without all of the little candlesticks and the curbs and all that, I think that’s a good idea. It’s not always possible because a lot of times you’re putting them in after the fact. I would like to see more education. I am concerned that some people get really upset with cyclists. And some cyclists—I have to tell you. I actually had a property down at the beach, a second property, with my ex and, you know, every time I would go to back out of the driveway cyclists would come and they would like not pay attention to me. And I would go “Well, they’re not the only one on the road.” And then I would see them running stoplights and stop signs. And that actually upsets motorists. I hear people say it all the time. And I go, “I get where you’re coming from. However…” You know, I try to defend cyclists. But, you know, if we all ran by the same rules or all, you know, followed the same rules, that would actually be optimum. You’re probably never going to see that, you know. There are always people that are going to break rules. It’s just how it is. And they shouldn’t spoil it for everyone. And so, you know, I have to say I am very, very careful around cyclists, and I really wish everyone was because the truth is a cyclist is never going to win against your car. SV: Yeah. RJ: It, you know—And, you know, as soon as, you know, you hear of, you know, a cyclist getting hit by a car and they’re like “Oh, it’s obviously the car’s fault.” Sometimes it isn’t. I mean, really sometimes it isn’t. You know, sometimes yes, sometimes no. But I do think we need to, again, create the opportunities, education and, you know, let’s just get into eBikes for one second. The kids should not be on the eBikes that are above their ability. It is a moving vehicle. It is like being on a moped or a motorcycle. I am—oftentimes, I see the kids, you know, going wayward and crazy on them. And you know what? It’s a recipe for disaster. And then, you know what? There are accidents that happen. And, you know, it shouldn’t be all on the driver. The cyclists, you know, including the eBikes really need to be responsible. I really would love to see more education in that. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: I have brought that up numerous times. I think the school district really should take a lead in this. I know our deputies at our Sheriff’s station do it as well. But, you know, a lot of kids are riding them to school. And it’s very dangerous. Parents, pay attention! (laughs) SV: Yep. RJ: They just think, “Oh, it’s just a bicycle.” It’s really not. And it really is very dangerous and, you know, we can’t parent the kids. That’s not our job. The parents need to parent their kids and they need to teach them how to be responsible with their bicycles, their eBikes especially. SV: Yeah. eBikes are a new wrinkle to resolve, I think, in the whole transit conversation. RJ: They are. And scary! It really is scary but, you know, very beneficial because they can take you longer and, you know, longer distances quicker. And you don’t have to be in super good shape to use them. But if you’re not responsible with them, they’re very, very dangerous. SV: Yeah. They’re good for the hills around here too. RJ: Yeah. For sure. I know. Someone said “Oh, yeah, just, you know, ride your bicycle around town.” And I’m like “Yeah. That’s—” We’re very hilly in San Marcos. SV: Yep. (both laugh) All right. So, we talked a little bit about your campaign, that first campaign, in 2008. I guess I wanted to circle back a little bit to even before that, to the San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force that you served on from 2005-2007. RJ: Mm-hmm. SV: And I was just curious as to what was the goal of the Task Force? RJ: It was to come up with a plan of mixed use and utilizing that entire area which, by the way, you know, we’ve been updating our general plan. We’ve put that on hold for now and we’re going to have a greater emphasis on bringing the Creek District part into that because we do need to update that plan. So, FEMA has updated the flood plain and all of those, you know, different areas are going to be changed due to in a 100-year flood, what happens? You know, if we get the torrential sort of rain that we had, you know, recently, another time or worse than that, oh my gosh. It makes a big difference. We have—excuse me (hiccups) —we haven’t had a situation where it’s flooded all the way from Escondido. But it could very well happen. And so, you know, being prepared is important. You’re not going to build a bunch of buildings in the flood way. It just isn’t going to happen. Currently, there is, you know, the Valley Christian School that’s over there. It’s in the flood way. So, they can’t, you know, change their buildings or anything like that. The reason I bring that up is that’s kind of like the edge of the Creek District area and then it goes all the way over behind Grand, or right around Grand. And there’s actually affordable housing that’s right in that area. So, what we did is we approved a plan for that. And then we also started getting the permits from the agencies so we could build the infrastructure. The infrastructure will be done this year. That’s a big first step in actually moving that forward. But, then again, you know we still need to incorporate the part of the land use changes are going to happen. We also have had people like Gary London come in and say “You’ve got too much commercial to the residential. You’re going to need to make some tweaks.” So, it likely will not build as dense as we had originally approved. So, we really do need to update it and bring in those changes, you know, bringing in the flood plain. And then also the fact that the infrastructure is actually done also changes things too. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, the emphasis will be on getting that updated as well as the general plan. SV: Okay. So, the original goal then with the Task Force and into when you served on it then was to create the plan that is now kind of being put into effect. RJ: Yes, exactly. SV: And did it account for a Creek District at that time? Because the Creek District is going to be like a public/private partnership that will help with development. RJ: Well, there was 62 property owners in there today. SV: Okay. RJ: You know, when we approved that, yeah. It was to bring an it, a place, a place where people could come— SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: —congregate, as I had mentioned earlier, and really, you know, a space where it would be, you know, open. And, you know, you could have, you know, different community events there and that sort of thing. Also, North City is that way. North City we actually approved as a university district back in 2009. We always thought the Creek would come first. Well, University District has now really become. And again, you know, we don’t even have an actual downtown in San Marcos. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, you know, creating a downtown, creating that space. It looks like North City is becoming that. You know, we’ve got the Belgian Waffle Ride coming this weekend. It’s the largest cycling event in the western United States. It’s a big deal. Thousands of cyclists are coming from all over. They’re going to be eating in our city. They’re going to be staying here. We don’t have a ton of hotels. There are going to be a couple of other ones in North City and then also in the Creek District eventually. But really creating that downtown was one of the things that we really wanted to do. But we always saw North City—a university district back then when we approved it—and then the creek, because they connect. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Having that as a center core for the city. SV: When do you think North City will be built out? RJ: Oof. Well, that depends on so many different things. If I had a crystal ball, I could answer that. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, they’ve been (sighs), they’ve been through a downturn in the economy. They’ve been through a pandemic. You know, they’ve been through a lot. If you go there today, you know, they’ve got several restaurants. They’ve got the only, first of its kind, building with the university which is the Extended Learning Building because there’s nothing like that in all of California. And then you’ve got like Mesa Rim. You’ve got Draft Republic which was the old Urge Gastropub. You have Newtopia Cyder, Fresh Café, Maya’s Cookies, Wynston’s Ice Cream, Copa Vida, Buona Forcbetta, Umami, a lot of things happening there but, you know, not the residences. You have a little bit of residence there. You’ve got the quad, which is university, you know, kids that live there. And then you have Block C. And then you have the block that’s The Wrap behind. And then also, you know, don’t forget too Pima Medical is right there. And then, you know, you’ve got medical offices now, Scripps Health. And so, a lot of things are happening. It really is on the edge of becoming something much bigger. They have broken ground on and they’re moving forward with the first large-scale residential in there. And it’s going to be about 12 stories high. And so that will really be a game changer, I think, for North City. I think that will be what brings the really the grocery store and the other businesses that they need that can actually handle those residents and offer the services that they need. And, you know, that’s always what the Creek was envisioned. I mean these are things that I learned when we were, you know, going on these field trips to old Pasadena and, you know, all these different places that were mixed use because we didn’t really have much mixed use at that time in the city. We have a little bit over off of Mission but it’s very, very small scale. You know, having the meeting spaces, having the, you know, congregation spaces where you can have like an open-air amphitheater, something like that, that’s all things that really we started with the planning of the Creek District. Again, you know, we have to update that. But really—And it, you know, kind of grew into also North City being part of that, being a large scale downtown core area for us. SV: Yeah. There is a lot of construction going on right now. RJ: Yes. There is. SV: You have the infrastructure going on along the Creek District. You have it seems like three or four different projects right around North City and in North City. RJ: Yeah. So, you know, okay. So, back when I was selling new homes in my early twenties, I was working at Discovery Creek, Discovery Trail, so Discovery Hills. And back then we had, you know, this big map that showed everything that was going to happen in the, you know, the adjoining property. Back then, Craven wasn’t even there. I mean this—just to date myself of how long I’ve been around in San Marcos. First moved here in 1987. Just looking at, you know, what it was going to be with Kaiser Hospital, Scripps Hospital which isn’t going to happen now. But they are going to have medical offices, much like Carmel Mount Ranch. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: So, pretty large-scale medical offices. You know, unfortunately, you know medical is always something that we need. And, you know, fortunately though we’ve got some space to put that. You know, we don’t want people to have to go all the way down to Carmel Mount Ranch to go to a doctor. And, you know, currently Kaiser Permanente doesn’t have a hospital. The nearest one is Mira Mesa. So, 180,000 subscribers in North County have to go all the way there for a hospital. So, it’s going to be opening up in August I’m told. They’ve got a ribbon cutting all scheduled. And the Creek project, the infrastructure, it’s about $112 million to start. That is our largest capital improvement project we’ve ever had. We broke ground on that on my one-year anniversary of taking office as Mayor, which is exciting being that, you know, I’d only been talking about it for 10-12 years (laughs) before that. And, you know, before me many other councils had talked about it. You know, this year is our 60th anniversary or birthday, and our sister city Vista, it’s their birthday as well. We were incorporated on January 28, 1963. And so, here we are. We’re in our birthday year, opening up our largest capital improvement project, opening up our hospital. I mean, a lot is happening. There’s also an extension of Discovery which is about $40 million as well, 30-40 million. That is going from Craven all the way through to Twin Oaks. That’s a big deal too, getting that done. But, you know, we’re trying to move people around in a meaningful way. That will be one of our first corridors that has intuitive lighting, stop lights that will help people get through. But one of the things that I’ve really focused on that I want to get done is to make sure that we’re getting the traffic flow better. Traffic, it does feel like it’s at its worst. That’s one of the things that my opponent was using against me during the campaign. I’m like “Well, we’ve got all this road construction. Sure as heck, we’re going to have terrible traffic right now.” But when it’s done, I believe it will be a significant improvement. You know, getting the flooding to stop so you no longer have that. Being able to have two lanes over Via Veracruz is a big deal. And I remember originally when we were talking about, you know, the Bent Crossing. We talked about a—to save money, well, what if we did an Arizona Crossing, which I don’t know if you’re familiar with that. SV: I’m not. RJ: It would still flood! SV: Okay. RJ: And I said “No. No. No. Let’s, let’s not do that.” So, we were able to apply for federal funds. And so, a lot of it is grant funded but a lot of money also comes from San Marcos residents. So again, you know, back to wanting to spend their money wisely. Helping move them around the city is really important. We appreciate everyone being so patient—not always patient. But, you know, it has been a tough, tough project because we’ve had unprecedented rain this year, of course. Of course, it had to happen! Just when we weren’t expecting it to happen. But, you know, it would have been a heck of a lot worse had we not had the bridge at Bent opened. I think that could have been actually dangerous for our residents if we had not gotten so far ahead on that. But that will be done probably about a July timeframe. So, the infrastructure will be done. The hospital will come right after that in August. I would say it’s a good year, a good year that we’re getting a lot done, you know, the hospital done and everything, just a lot of good things for our residents. And again, you know, the jobs that we’re providing too, that’s a thousand jobs at Kaiser Permanente. So, those are some really good high-paying jobs. I think that’s a huge win. I’m really proud of that. You know, when I first got the call from their west coast person, he said to me “Are you still interested in the hospital?” And I was like “Where do I sign up?” (laughs) Because, yes! Of course, I’m still interested. Anything we can do to help make that happen, you know. And, you know, also having the university have, you know, the nursing program has been really important. And then, you know, also over at Palomar because, you know, these are also the ability to teach, you know, hands on is a big deal. And, you know, we’re becoming a healthcare hub, now, of North County which is great, you know, with the hospital opening up and then Scripps are moving forward with their big medical offices. It’s, you know, again it’s sad that people are not healthy, however good that they have the ability to get those healthcare options close to home. SV: Yeah. RJ: And the good jobs, of course. SV: Yes. RJ: Yeah. SV: Yeah. Definitely. RJ: In fact, my niece actually just got her nurse’s license. So, very exciting. SV: Congratulations to your niece. RJ: Yes, very exciting. SV: I wanted to circle back a little bit to 2018 and just ask you why did you decide to run for mayor then? RJ: Oosh, well, I decided well before 2018. I actually decided when I was getting elected in 2016 as mayor. I talked to my husband at the time and, you know, ’18 was a tough year, I have to tell you. I was finishing up my divorce. He told me he didn’t want to be married anymore in 2017. So, I was in the middle of a divorce. I had to sell the property, buy a property. I moved 10 days after the election. A lot of people don’t know how hard that was. It was really tough. But, you know, what I knew that, again, you know being apolitical, really pretty apolitical, was an important thing for our future. I think also, you know, having these large-scale things coming up. I wanted to see them through. And, you know, I have to tell you, looking back and seeing all that we have been able to accomplish during my time on the council, I’m so proud. I know that when I’m ready to retire, I can look back and be very proud of what I’ve been able to accomplish with very, you know, diverse group of people. We now have three women, by the way, on the city council which is great. But, you know, again, you know, for 2018 having the first mayor that’s a female, that’s pretty surprising. You know, as progressive as the city is and, you know, how entrepreneurial we’ve really been, I always thought it would be Pia Harris Ebert, which she has been a wonderful mentor to me. I can’t express enough how much I value her leadership, all of her 24 years on the city council. But, you know, when she told me she was retiring, I said, “What?? You can’t go!” and she said, “You know what? I can look back and I can be very proud.” I mean we used to be known for our chicken ranch and then our dairy. And that was it! We were known as a chicken ranch and dairy city, not for higher learning education, being a great place to run a family, a great school district. We were never known for that. We were known for other things. So, I really am proud of how we’ve elevated who we’ve become, the city that we are, and all that we have accomplished. And so, you know, I feel like, you know, the things needed to be seen through and now, you know, I’m on my second term as mayor just, you know, getting reelected last year. I am very happy. I’m very happy. But I’m also, you know, as concerned about, you know, creating opportunity for a new team to come in that is like-minded, focusing on us being a safe city, focusing on us being an entrepreneurial city, also making sure that we are serving our community and providing awesome trails and parks and all of that. And it becomes very challenging when you’re an infill city, and as built out as we are. So, you know, it’s got to be, you know, trying to find good people that want to come after me. And that’s, you know, what both Pia Harris Ebert and Hal Martin did. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And I appreciate that. And I take that responsibility very seriously as well. So, that’s what I’m going to be doing the next three years, three and a half years. And then, you know, making sure that we stay focused. And we’re going to have some tough financial times. You know, it’s—business has not come back the way that we’ve all hoped. And so, you know, we hear of layoffs all the time. You know, General Atomics, I think they laid off 400 people last week. That’s a lot! So, having those challenges you really do need to have a good team in there. But, you know, I’m trying to bring other people forward because that’s a big part of, you know, a succession plan. It’s really important. SV: Yeah. You mentioned businesses haven’t come back. Were you referring to from the pandemic? RJ: Correct. Yes. SV: Yeah. RJ: Just not in the way—you know, we do have a lot of businesses that have opened. But, you know, we also lost some. I mean, San Marcos Brewery, I still am sad about that, you know, a long-time business in our city, gone. Couldn’t keep their doors open with the open and closing and all of that. There are a lot of stories like that, unfortunately. And so, you know, being able to support the business community, I work a lot at that. I mean if I—I try to do everything I possibly can to support our businesses. And, you know, it’s not like one business. It’s thousands, you know. We’ve got like four tho—let me think here—four thousand businesses here in the city. It’s a lot! SV: Yeah. RJ: It’s a lot. It’s actually upwards of four thousand. And, you know, many of those are store fronts and they’re very small and, you know, they’re family owned. And, you know, I love that. I love that they’re thriving. I love that they’re doing well. I was actually just at a business opening a couple of weeks ago. The father-in-law of this young woman that just opened a brand-new business, he is a long-time business owner in San Marcos, twenty—I think twenty-six years he’s been in business. So, you know, seeing those generations, you know, staying in the city, opening up new businesses. I love that. But, you know, they’re going to need our help. And, you know, they need us to congregate and go to their businesses and, you know, spend our money here locally. And I try to always, you know, emphasize that. You know, during the pandemic, I tirelessly spent so much time on, you know, media just hey talking about all of our great businesses, and what about this and what about that and you know they need us now. But they need us still now. It’s not going to end. And, you know, a lot of them are really struggling. So, as costs go up, people eat out less. They spend less of their money. And so, we’ve got to remember that, when you can, try to spend it locally, whenever possible. SV: Yeah. I imagine a lot of governance is trying to minimize the bad impacts of change, you know, unforeseen or foreseen. And you talked a little bit about the pandemic. I was curious as to, you know, what you could do to lessen the burden on folks during that time and what you all did do. RJ: Gosh. Wow, we did a lot actually. We were the first city that—you know, we have always had very good reserves. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: You know, that’s something that is because we’ve been very fiscally responsible. That money is for rainy days. And when the pandemic came, that was a rainy day. SV: Yeah. RJ: It really was. And so, we set aside $3 million. We were the first city, I believe. The only other city that may have actually beat us was the city of San Diego. But I think they set aside like $5 million. We set aside $3 million. They’ve got a population of 1.3 million. SV: Yeah. RJ: We have a population of under 100. So, I think we really outshined them in that. And I’m really proud that we did that. And that is, you know, that’s being very, very pro-business. I’ve always been pro-business, you know, being that I owned my own business and I know how hard it was. I thought that was something that we should do. And I wholeheartedly believe it’s the right thing to do for our community. But, anyway, so we did that. And we had business loans. So, it was small business loans up to $50,000, depending on your circumstances. We hired an outside company to do all the credit checks. And just, you know, you couldn’t be late prior to Covid. You know, you had to meet a few guidelines. But we were very intentional about trying to get that money out fast, as fast as possible. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: The federal government didn’t have any money out. And we had already saved a lot of businesses. Then the other thing that we did is we were the first city that had our businesses, as soon as the governor—I remember watching the press conference. And Governor Newsom said, when he was talking about some of the businesses could no longer be operating inside, but he didn’t say outside! I was on the phone to our economic development director, and I said, “I’m thinking we can have outside businesses. What can we do to make this as quick as possible.” And we had people moving their businesses. And it was a lot of services, like haircutting and all of that. And then there was another issue about that because—and, you know, restaurants and everything. But there was another issue with that because they didn’t have their business licenses. So, we were actually fighting to open up. And, you know, I mean, again, tirelessly, the letters that I sent to the governor. I mean, I was on full blown action I felt like the whole time, which is very exhausting. SV: Yeah. RJ: But it was like okay, let’s get those businesses moved outside as soon as they can. And we had businesses and we’re like “Don’t worry about your permit. We’re going to check, make sure that you are following it. Just follow these guidelines and we’ll come and check on you.” We had businesses out there before any other. And we didn’t charge anyone a fee. There were a lot of cities that were out there charging them a fee. We’re like no. We need our businesses to stay in place. We need to support them, and we can’t just say that we’re supporting them. We actually have to do it. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And so, I am really proud that we did that. And, you know again, we didn’t close all of our trails. We were not very out in public, you know, screaming it from the rooftops that we’re open because we didn’t want our city residents to feel crowded because all of the other residents from the other cities were coming, though some people knew about them. It was just—it was important for us to do everything we could to support the community. So, fast forward to when we received our federal funds, we were actually able to take all of those loans and make them grants so they didn’t have to be paid back. That was huge. SV: Yeah. RJ: The other thing that we did is we set aside some of our ARPA funds to help our non-profits. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: Because they were really hurting at that time too. And I am so proud of all of the things that we did during the pandemic because it was us being innovative, us cutting through the red tape, and us working hard to support our businesses and our community and our non-profits. Because our non-profits support our residents, right? And then the other thing that we also did is—and it’s not our responsibility, though we recognized that our community, our youth were doing very poorly. You know, I’ve been involved with the Boys and Girls Club for many years. And one of the things that they—I was having a conversation with them—one of the things that they were saying is that many of the kids that are at risk were not checking in. And so, you know, you’ve got parents that are very frustrated. The kids are at risk of being abused or neglected. And you’ve got this ultra tough situation happening. So, the mental health of our community, you know, we’ve really tried to focus on that too. And so, one of the things that we did for our youth in the community is we partnered with the school district, and we are equally funding the mental health program that they have rolled out to help the kids bounce back and figure out. You know, a lot of them are so confused. A lot of them have learning deficits. They don’t know how to articulate that, their frustration, their fear and, you know, just getting sick. You know, a lot of them are terrified of getting sick. And, you know, what is life going to be? It’s very different. SV: Yeah. RJ: You know, back to the whole pivot—I mean, I know pivot is kind of overused during the pandemic, but it’s a real thing. And so, for us as a city, you know, we made an intentional effort to do what we could to also help the kids. And, you know again, I think I told you this a little bit earlier, you know, I had people—I felt like a counselor many times during the pandemic. I had some of our folks calling me up and sending me messages and saying, you know, “I’m scared.” And so, I would check in on people and let them know, “Hey. You know what? You’re seen. You’re heard. We care about you.” So, you know, mayor’s job is not just all legislation. You know, there’s a lot of parts to it. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I think something that a lot of people think is really, it’s just all about rules and regulations. That’s all your job is. Well, I think as a mayor especially, and a councilmember to some degree, but I think as a mayor I’m the figurehead pretty much for the city council. A lot of people know who the mayor is, and they might not know who their councilperson is. For me to be the face of our city, out there letting people know that we care about them and letting them know that it’s not all about rules and regulations. We actually had a young man that was murdered within our community by one of his friends. He was in his early 20s. And, you know, we renamed a trail after him, actually the Gratitude Trail in his memory, right there around Discovery Lake because us doing things to help our community heal in tough times, in tragic times, is really important. And I really do think that that’s a part of government that sometimes people are like “Well, I’m a politician. I don’t have to do that.” Yeah, you don’t have to do it. But I think doing it is important because, again, you know, how—you know, during the pandemic, people needed to know we care about you. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: We care about your businesses. We’re all in with you. We’re going to do everything we can to keep you open and do it safely, of course. But, you know, when it was all the big businesses could stay open and then the small businesses were closed. They couldn’t adapt to that! SV: Yeah. RJ: Many of them went out of business. And, you know, so we had to make it so that it’s easy for every small business to get a fair shake, to be treated like a large business, you know, while also following the health order. So, it was a real tough time. And, again you know, back to grief. You’ve got to deal with grief too within a community and figure out how to move people forward. And, you know, one of the things that I think is always important is, even if you’re taking baby steps moving forward, you’ve got to move forward. Whatever that looks like. And sometimes it’s very different than two weeks ago even. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And, you know, I mean when the pandemic hit, remember, two weeks! Staying home. SV: Yeah. We have a archive that we started mostly with the students, but with community as well, trying to record experiences during that time. RJ: Yeah. SV: And it’s amazing so many students especially writing “I thought I was going to have a two-week vacation and here I am a year later.” And, you know, it’s just— RJ: Yeah. SV: —it’s just a traumatic experience all the way around. RJ: For sure. And, you know, I mean that is a part, I think, of being a mayor during a pandemic that I—you know, it’s kind of interesting. I was on a Zoom with some girl scouts, and they said to me “If you knew there was going to be a pandemic, would you still run for mayor?” (Sean laughs) And it was funny because I didn’t even hesitate and I said, “Absolutely!” SV: Yeah. RJ: And the reason being is because I was the right person at the right time. I am very positive and I’m very—I mean, you know, the glass is not half-full. The glass is almost to the top, right? There’s always a way to bring everyone together. There’s always a way to, you know, encourage people. And, you know, that’s what I did! My job changed. But I kept working. And, you know, there were a lot of people that really needed to be seen and I let them know they were being seen. SV: Yeah. RJ: I think without hesitation I am glad that I was the mayor at that point in time. SV: Mm-hmm. It’s a really interesting thing that you say about there being—I guess you’re saying so your job is obviously legislation. But it’s also emotional labor and care and I’m hearing as well, communication is important. RJ: Mm-hmm. SV: What are some other aspects? I guess my question is what would surprise people the most about your job that people don’t know? RJ: Oh, that’s a tough one. Gosh, I don’t even know if I have an answer to that. You know, it’s interesting. So, Jeff Zevely, he’s from Channel 8. He actually was doing a show on our birthday. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And he said to me, he goes “You know, if San Marcos had a cheer squad, would you be on it?” and I said, “I’m the head cheerleader! What are you talking about?” (both chuckle) And he even said to me after the interview, he goes “You were so fast. You didn’t even like stop for one second.” I said, “Well, that’s my job.” My job is to not just deal with all the tough stuff. It’s also to be out advocating that San Marcos is a great place to live. We have so much for—You know, you can start out, you know, as a baby. And pretty soon you’ll be able to be born here (indicates quotations with her fingers), actually born here, because—I mean, I guess you could be born at your house if you’ve got a midwife or something but, you know, it’s not a traditional thing. You could be born here, and you can earn a master’s degree and then you could work here, and you could have a good paying job. Like that is a remarkable thing if you look at our city from our humble roots: one stop light, chicken ranch, the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch right here where the university is today. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And Hollandia Dairy. That’s all we were known for. And so, yeah, I would say a lot of people might not know what that entails but it’s a lot of time and effort. I can assure you of that. SV: Yeah. RJ: Like it’s almost more than the actual job, although I do a lot of reading. So, that’s probably the most time consuming part of my job, you know, because when I show up, you know, I’ve even had people at SANDAG say—that are a different political party than me—say, “You know, I might not—” And actually this happened like maybe, well it’s happened a few times, but in the last couple of weeks, where this man got up and he said, “You know, Mayor Jones—” and I’m like going “Oh gosh. What’s he going to say?” (both laugh) You never know, right? And then he says, “Mayor Jones, even though I philosophically don’t agree with you on everything, I appreciate that you are always prepared, and you know exactly what you’re talking about because you’re prepared.” And it really does require a lot of time and effort. And, you know, there are times I wake up and I’m like “I’m tired today. I don’t want to work.” But I don’t get that luxury. I have to do what I have to do. And I’ve got to pull it together. And it is a very—you know, the cheerleading part of it and I’m not saying it, you know, like a cheerleader—but, you know, being again the spokesperson, the person that’s in the front, the person that’s out and about the most, probably one of the most identifiable positions in the community—even if people don’t know me, they know that there’s a mayor. You know, to be the mayor of such an incredible city, I’m really humbled by it. I really am. But it does take a lot of effort and it does take a lot of, you know, inner strength. And, you know, I had a pretty tough childhood and, you know, I was a latchkey kid a lot of the time. And, you know, my parents got divorced when I was eleven which is a really tough age. And I had a lot of things happen where I just go “Gosh, I wish it wouldn’t have been my life.” However, it was. But you know what? It also gives me the authority when people are, you know, telling me “You know, I’m going through tough times,” I get it! I was there. I’ve been there. And, you know, I think it helps me do a very good job. And, you know, not everyone thinks I do a good job. But I just got reelected so— SV: Yep! RJ: —again, 64% of the vote. I don’t think I mentioned that before. But the largest margin I’ve ever won by, I think that is a testament to how much I care for the community, how hard I work for the community, and the fact that it’s not all about legislation to me. It really is about being the cheerleader and the person that’s out in the front, talking about what a remarkable community we have. And when I say, “the community,” it’s the people. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: It’s not me. It’s people that I represent. And I hope that they will always feel like they can reach out to me, and I will always try to help them in whatever I can. SV: Yeah. Thank you. I think I had maybe one or two more questions. But something that I didn’t necessarily prepare to talk about in this interview, I wanted to ask you about was you mentioned you’re the first mayor that was elected that’s a woman in San Marcos history. RJ: Mm-hmm. SV: And I was curious if there are considerations that, in your opinion, that women politicians have to take into account that men do not. RJ: Huh! (Sean chuckles) Well… SV: I know that’s a big question. RJ: Well, I’m also not married. So, it actually is quite awkward— SV: Yeah. RJ: —in a lot of ways, you know, because I am out there. It opens it up for—And, you know, there’s a lot of discussion about bias, right? SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: There is still bias against women. It’s sad. But there are. And women politicians! I don’t know if people are surprised all the time. But, I mean, I have been, I mean, I’ve been called names. I’ve been, you know, people try to box me in as I mentioned earlier. It’s hard to believe that it’s 2023 and things still happen the way that they happen because, you know, talking about what I look like, what my body looks like. I’ve had people actually talk about what my body looks like! I’m thinking, wow! You know? Would you say that to your mother? Because I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t. And so, you know, at a job like this that’s very out there, very highly visible—and I am highly visible—you know, I’ve had a few times, very inappropriate comments, inappropriate messages sent to me. And, you know, a couple of times I’m like “Gee, should I be worried?” And I send everything to the Sheriff’s department when I have things that are sent to me that are uncomfortable. But it’s different than being a man. One hundred percent. It’s very different than being a man. I don’t think you have to worry about people talking about what you look like. I don’t think that any man as a mayor would have people sending them messages about what they look like. SV: Yeah. RJ: I don’t think it would ever happen. Now, I don’t really mean if someone says “Oh, I really like how your style.” That’s not sexual. But the truth is a lot of things that are sent are very sexual and I think—I am actually flabbergasted, and you know I’m almost 56 years old. I’m flabbergasted that at 56 years old, as an elected mayor, that I would be treated like this. But it happens! SV: Yeah. RJ: It’s really hard to believe. And, honestly, I feel bad for every woman that is just trying to do a job and it gets distracted and convoluted by people bringing in other things that are just not appropriate. It’s just not appropriate. I mean, talking about what I look like or whether they—I mean, the first thing that someone said to me—I was offended but it was early on—was that my teeth were freakishly white. And I went (makes a puzzled and slightly disgusted look on her face) “Why would someone talk about that?” I don’t even think someone would say that about a man. SV: Yeah. RJ: But I feel like, as a woman, on some level there is this—it’s open to talk about what you’re wearing, what you look like, whether they think you are, you know, someone they would want to date or someone—I mean, like really inappropriate things when you’re just trying to darn well do a job, you know what I mean? So, it really is just hard to believe that here we are in 2025—or 2023. Gosh, I can’t even believe I just said that. (both laugh) SV: What would your advice— RJ: You can cut that part out! (both still laughing) SV: We’ll make a note. What would your advice be to women entering politics? RJ: That’s another tough one. You know, I have a podcast too. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And one of the things about my podcast that I love is that you’ve got women from every different, you know, career, all different political parties. It’s not at all political. But they’re all just doing their job and they found something that they love. So, I guess one of the things that I would tell women that are thinking about politics, if you love it, you should definitely do it because you’re going to be very, very effective when you can put your heart into it. There is a lot of preparation that happens. And like for me, you know, I now am the one with the historical knowledge because I’ve been around so long. There is a lot to learn. I mean, you really do need to try to figure out why things happened. I mean, when I first joined the council, I spent every single Friday, like half a day, with the City Manager because he was with the city for like 24 years to find out everything I could about the why and the how and, you know, just how things happen because I thought that would prepare me which it has. But don’t let the things—I mean, you are going to have to have thick skin. It’s true. You are going to have to have thick skin, thicker than a man that goes into politics. But don’t be deterred by people. You really need to follow what you think is right and bringing in your own style. Like I don’t know anyone that does my job the way that I do it because I do it my way. And I don’t let any political party call me up and tell me what to do. I follow what I believe is right. And I follow the kind of politician that I want to be, though I don’t really consider myself politician, technically I am. But I really just want to do a good job. I want to be prepared. I think as a woman you probably have to be a little more prepared. Otherwise, people will start thinking that “Well, you don’t belong there. You’re not smart enough. You’re not this.” It really is about taking information and making a good decision. If you’re a good decision-maker, you can do this job. You’re qualified. You love the community, you’re qualified. If you are willing to put a lot into it, you’re qualified. Not everyone has that qualification. And when I say qualification, it’s not just what others believe but it’s what you believe on the inside. And, you know again, back to my podcast, my podcast is about elevating women because we really still need elevating. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: As, you know, there’s a lot of talk about, you know, different segments of the population whether you’re a minority, whatever, it really still is about women too. We do fit into that. The equity and the inclusion isn’t all about your race. It’s about also your gender because our gender still is a hinderance. And some people don’t see that. And I wish more people paid attention to that because when you’re a woman, you’re a minority. You really do have more against you than a man that’s a minority. And as a woman that is not a minority, you still have things against you that are something that a man would not experience. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And I wish more people really paid attention to that. But, you know, back to the point of if you’re a woman and you really want to, if you have a heart for politics, you should not let any one person or segment of people deter you if you really, really have the heart for it because you can do it. It just is going to be probably a little harder than it is for a man. SV: Mm-hmm. Well, thank you for that answer. And I think it’s wonderful advice. RJ: Thank you. SV: I’ll give you a much nicer question. RJ: Nah, that’s not a hard question at all! I, honestly, and I really do believe it. I mean, it’s terrible! It really is terrible that we’re still there, in 2023. SV: Yeah. RJ: Why did I say 2025? I don’t know. (Sean laughs) SV: It happens. What is the best day of work that you’ve had? RJ: Oh, gosh. There have been a lot of them. I would say I had a really good one recently. And it’s weird because, you know, it’s always something different. But honestly, when I am out in the community at an event and there are kids and they ask me things like—I was at the Boys and Girls Club and I was, of all things, baking cookies with them. So, let me tell you a little story. So, during the pandemic, we decided at West Lake Village that we, the city, that we were—well, we already knew that we were going to have a long-term lease for the Boys and Girls Club so they could expand their services at that location. And then, when we got some of our ARPA funds, we were like okay, we’ll help them with the TIs (tenant improvements) because then that’ll be good for the community because kids can go there and, you know, spend, you know, more time there. So, anyway, I was like “Oh, they’re going to have a kitchen there.” And I was like “That’s so cool.” So, I called up the director—and by the way, I started a girls mentoring program at the Boys and Girls Club which during the pandemic we had to kind of shut down. But I used my tax refund to put some money into it. And I said to them, I said “You know what would be great?” I go, “I really want to come back and spend more time with the kids,” because I’ve been so busy since I got elected as mayor. I don’t always have time to do all the things I really want to do. And I said, “Can I come back and, you know, bake cookies with the kids?” And they were like “Yeah, sure.” And I said, “So, I want to also donate a mixer.” You know, not all kids get to use a really nice KitchenAid mixer. But it’s really cool to use and to learn and, you know again, like to your point, you know. When you’re a chef, you probably are going to be using one of those at some point in time. So, I was like “I really want to buy one.” I’m like “It’s on my heart. I want to do this.” So, I donated the mixer a while ago. And then I’m like, “Gosh. Okay, it’s January. I need to start figuring out when I’m going to get in and bake cookies with the kids because I really want to do it.” And so, we set up a date. It was right after the darn 78 flooding happened. SV: Oh, yeah. RJ: And CalTrans. And it was that day. It was that day at 4 o’clock. I was supposed to go over there and bake cookies with them. And then I had to cancel because Caltrans had to have this emergency meeting. And I was like on Zoom, and I was like “Oh, darn it.” I’m like “Oh, duty calls.” I’m like “Can we reschedule another day?” So, we rescheduled another day. I get there and the kids are so excited to meet the mayor first of all. And this is, by the way, intentionally in one of our lower income areas of the city. It’s over on Autumn Drive. And they’re like “Do you think I could be a mayor?” And I just got to hang out and talk to them and I’m like—and teach them how to make, you know, how to crack the eggs. They were doing so good. And, you know, so there was about—I think there was like 12 or 14 of them. I’m like “I want to go back and do that like so all the kids that go to that branch have that moment of time with me.” Because I appreciated it as much as they did. And so, for me, the moments like that or when I get to go and talk to, you know, kids that are at the Boys and Girls Club service groups like Girls Scouts, Boys Scouts. All of the kids groups, honestly, those are the best days that I always have. I mean, really, the kids are excited. I’m really excited to hear what they have to say. But I also am getting a different—and back to, you know, my point of going out and door knocking and meeting people and hearing what they have to say about the city. I’m hearing it from kids and they’re going to be 100% honest. SV: Yeah. RJ: They’re not going to sugarcoat it. SV: (laughs) That’s true. RJ: They’re not going to try to fluff me up. They’re not going to try to get something out of me. They are going to tell me exactly what they think about their community. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And you know what? I appreciate that. So, for me, it’s always about the moments with the kids when I get to go out and do things like that. It actually fills me so much more than any other moments because, again you know, you do have to put a lot into it. You know, when you’re out there on—and when I say “on” (air quotes with her fingers) you know, you’re talking to people. And I don’t want people to feel like they can’t approach me. So, I’m very approachable. And that is one of the things that I really do pride myself on. I don’t want anyone to feel like I ever don’t approach—you know, they can’t approach me. And so, one of our community members sent me this message recently and he said to me, “You know,” —his daughter was in the kids mentor, the girls mentor group—and he said “You know,” he goes “it was so cute. My daughter, we were talking about something.” And she’s also a Girl Scout. And he said “Yeah. She says ‘Well, I know the mayor.’” (both laugh) And he’s like “and she was saying this, you know, to my wife and, you know, to—we had friends over and she goes ‘yeah, I know the mayor.’” And he goes “It was the coolest thing because she really felt like she connected with me.” And I’m like “She did connect with me.” and I love that. I love that our kids in the community can feel like they connected with me because I feel like they will never probably forget that. And I oftentimes when I’m places—I actually did this a couple of weeks ago. I was getting some food to go from San Marcos Market. There was a mom and the daughter and I were just kind of talking. And I went out to my car, and I got her one of our city pens and then I said to her, and I say this very often—so, you know, our city emblem is a wayfinding sign, a compass—and I said to her, I said, “Do you know what this is?” I took it back to her. I said, “Do you know what this is?” And she goes, “No.” And I said, “Well, you’ll probably see it on all of our San Marcos signs. It’s a wayfinding sign, so it’s a compass.” And I said, “What it stands for is to discover life’s possibilities. And it’s going to be different for you than it is for me and for your little friends. Every single one of you has something that is your path to success.” And it’s not all—Everyone’s not going to go to a four-year college. I actually didn’t go to a four-year college. But everyone’s going to have a path to success. And I want everyone to know that they’ve got something inside of them that is what their path is and, you know, it might not be traditional. It might be traditional, but it might not. And I want everyone to know that there is their best self. There is a place that is a best self for every single person. And, again, it’s going to be very different for everyone. And, you know, my kids, my daughter just graduated from USD. My son went to Palomar. Totally different kids. Totally different people. But it doesn’t mean that one is going to be more successful than the other. And I want people to know that and believe that in themselves. I didn’t have parents that, you know, tried to make me feel like I could be successful in whatever I did. I honestly believe that my parents just wanted me to get married and have babies. And that was all they really hoped for me. And here I am. I’m the mayor of one of the best cities in the county. And I am so grateful for every moment that I get to spend in the community and encouraging people and spending my time letting them know that we believe in them. We care about them. That’s what my job is in a nutshell. And I know it is kind of back to a different point of what we were talking about. But the truth is every moment that you’re inspiring kids in the community is a win for me. SV: Yeah. RJ: So, those days are the best. And, you know, really I try to—I always carry my pens in the car. I’m like “Wait! Just wait!” I try to throw them, honestly, in my purse sometimes or in my pocket or whatever. I don’t always remember. But I think those moments when you just say that one thing, that could change the trajectory of someone’s life. And I know I remember my fourth-grade teacher, Mrs. Long. Here I am, you know, 56 years old almost. And I remember fourth grade, what she said to me. She said, “You can do bigger things than you think you can.” And I just know that that’s why I am the right person, right now, to do what I’m doing. SV: Yeah. RJ: And I’m so grateful for it. And I really have a hard time believing that I actually am doing this, but I love it. Most days I absolutely love it, SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And there are times when you’re tired and you go “I don’t want to get up today.” But then, you know, you have those days where you really just go “Okay. This is going to fill me in. Now, I can get through another week or whatever.” SV: Mm-hmm. Well, thank you. I think that’s a great sentiment to end our interview on. I did want to ask you just one more question and that is if there’s anything that I should have asked you that I did not. RJ: No, because honestly, you know how I—I think you realize what my style is. (both laugh) if you don’t bring it up and I want to say it, I’ll just bring it in there. So, no, I don’t think so. SV: Okay. RJ: Yeah, I don’t think so. It’s funny. At KUSI, they’re like “Oh, well, we’ll just ask you one question. You just know what to do.” (both laugh) “You know what, you can just get everything you want to say in.” I’m like “Oh, okay. Thanks!” And, you know, by the way, when I was first elected as mayor, I was like “I can’t go on TV! I’m scared to death! I’m going to be sweating. I’m going to be stressed. I’m going to say wrong things.” Like now, I’m like, I laugh about it. You know, what I said. I’m like “Aw, geez. Two thousand twenty-five. What am I saying?” (raises her hands and chuckles) You know, but I used to be really hard on myself. But you know what? I don’t think people really want perfection. They want truth and honesty and authentic. SV: Yeah. RJ: And, you know, I try to be those things. I try to be, you know—I don’t even honestly think about it. I just try not to be guarded when I am—And, you know, if I show up to something, I don’t want to be the person that is like “Cheese!” (motions as if smiling widely for a camera) take a picture and then leave. Like, I’m there to do whatever you need me to do. Like if I need to take out trash, get icky stuff on my hands, I’m going to do it. Like, I want to be fully engaged when I show up to things. And I don’t think every politician is like that. I honestly wish there were more people, not exactly my style, but really having the reason as the reason, as the real reason, you know what I mean? Not like “Oh, I’m looking for my next thing, my next higher office.” (makes air quotes with hands) You know, I am planning on running for county supervisor next. But if I’m not elected, I’m totally fine. I’ve done good. I really do believe that. I really do believe I’ve done good. SV: Yeah. When are you running for county supervisor? RJ: In 2026, when this term is over. SV: Okay. RJ: So, not to worry. I’m not going to skip like in the middle of my term. So, Jim Desmond will be termed out and I’m running for that seat. And, you know, it’s a bigger job but, you know, the good thing is I will get paid for the hours that I work. SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: And then I have staff. So, I think I can work on the same level, you know, put in the same amount but have more fruit because I have people working for me and I’m actually getting paid for it. So— SV: Yeah. RJ: You know, because we make less than $12,000 a year. I don’t know if you know that. SV: I didn’t know. RJ: Yeah. Yeah. I’m the best value in the county. (both laugh) Everyone’s like—Well, actually a bunch of my friends are like “You’re the hardest working mayor in the whole county!” And I go “Well, you know, yeah.” But, again, I’m not one of those people that shows up and like takes a picture and leaves. That’s just not my thing. SV: Yeah. RJ: I don’t do that. Anyway. Anything else? SV: No. Thank you so much for your time. RJ: Do you feel like you know me now? SV: I do! RJ: Okay, good. SV: I appreciate you spending some time— RJ: Yeah. SV: —talking with us today. And I think this is going to be really valuable to our students and researchers in the future. So, thank you. RJ: Well, again, you know our city has come such a long way. And we really do have a lot to be proud of. And I really do believe that people that live here and I hear it time and time again, showing up at their house and they’re like “I love it here.” SV: Mm-hmm. RJ: “I love this city. I really wouldn’t live anywhere else.” And, you know, even when they’re upset about things, they still don’t want to leave. They still are very happy. They’re like “But, it’s better than—” You know, blah, blah, blah. Or where else. So, I think, you know, we’ve built a great place. My first house was over behind Fire Station No. 2. (points in front and to the left with her left hand) And now I live over off of La Marie. (points behind her right shoulder with her right hand) So, I’ve had three houses over here. So, I’ve owned four houses in the city. SV: Nice. RJ: I’m definitely not leaving. SV: Yeah. RJ: I love it here. SV: Well, thank you, again. I appreciate everything. RJ: Of course, yeah. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JonesRebecca_VisintainerSean_2023-04-12.xml JonesRebecca_VisintainerSean_2023-04-12.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jones, Rebecca. Interview April 12, 2023. Description An account of the resource Mayor Rebecca Jones has been involved in local governance of San Marcos, California since 2005, when she served on the San Marcos Creek Specific Plan Task Force until 2007. Jones served on City Council from 2007 to 2018, winning re-election three times. Jones also served as Vice Mayor from 2012-2018, and was elected as Mayor in 2018 and re-elected in 2022. In addition to her role as Mayor, Jones represents San Marcos on the San Diego Association of Governments (SANDAG) Board of Directors and on the SANDAG executive committee and regional planning committee. Jones also sits on the Countywide Redevelopment Successor Agency Oversight Board. In her oral history, Jones discusses the structure of San Marcos's local government and how it interacts with the San Diego County government. Jones recalls her foray into politics and recounts previous elections as well as her service on the San Marcos Creek Task Force. Jones also offers her perspective on public transit, car transit, bike transit, and microtransit, development in San Marcos, and how the she and city navigated the COVID-19 pandemic. Jones delves into her experience as a woman in politics, and her place as San Marcos's first woman mayor, and offers advice to women interested in a political career. Jones also discusses her podcast, cooking, self-care, and the Boys and Girls Club of San Marcos. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-034 Subject The topic of the resource COVID-19 pandemic, 2020-2023 -- Economic aspects COVID-19 pandemic, 2020-2023 -- Government policy Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos Local government -- California -- San Marcos San Diego Association of Governments Women in politics Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-12 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rebecca Jones Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Rebecca Jones Community history North County Oral History Initiative Politics and governance Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a4eab2eb7098e5cb2da2844a583b4393.pdf 529a5a1d54025024f7f1fcfe7d125d1d PDF Text Text Transcript created March 31, 2023 Transcript Faye Jonason: Good afternoon. It is November 29th, 2002―22, and we are at the Marine Corps Mechanized Museum. And I am interviewing―my name is Faye Jonason and I’m interviewing Leslee Roberts, and we’re doing this for CSU San Marcos’s Program for Oral History and for Marine Corps Base, Camp Pendleton’s Oral History Archives. So, thank you for being here. Leslee Roberts: My pleasure. Jonason: And I’m going to ask you your name—your full name—and for you to spell your last name, please. Roberts: Yes. My name is Leslee Kaye Roberts. That’s R-O-B-E-R-T-S. Jonason: And you were in the Marine Corps! Roberts: Yes, ma’am. Jonason: So, I’d like to know, very much, how you came about the decision and how you came to the Marine Corps. Roberts: (sighs) That’s a bit of a story. Um, number one, I have a―I had a brother and it was his dream to become a Marine. He was about four years younger than I and that’s all he ever talked about. Number one. That was not originally my ambition. I joined the Sisters of Charity to become a nun and that did not work out too well. I’m very independent individual, had hard time conforming. So, I was told that I would not fit with the Sisters of Charity. So, I left. Jonason: Now this was in Cleveland? Roberts: This was in Cleveland. Uh, like I was, uh, in my twenties, and I had no job, and I bounced around for a while, and my brother—bless his heart—kept telling me “Join the Marine Corps. Join the Marine Corps.” It was something that he had desired and something that he worked at for—all through his high school years. He even knew the, um, recruiter, okay? So, he introduced me to the recruiter and the young man convinced me that—what–what’s three years—okay? So, at the time I was doing nothing, and I said, all right. And I put my hand in the air and I became a Marine. Jonason: (laughs) What did your family think about that? Roberts: They weren’t too happy. My mom—she always went along with whatever decision I made, within reason. My dad took it very hard. It was during the Vietnam War, and he even laid his head in my lap and cried, “Please don’t do this!” But it was too late. I already had my hand in the air and I belonged to the United States of America. 1 �Jonason: (chuckles) Okay. So, what happened next? Roberts: I went to bootcamp! Jonason: Where? Roberts: Parris Island, and spent a good s–almost eight weeks—I guess it was—in training. Jonason: What did they train you to do? Roberts: To be honest, as I kind of mentioned here before, um, the whole idea of boot camp wasn’t any different than becoming a sister for Sisters of Charity. (Jonason laughs) The whole idea of both institutions was to take my personality, take me (points to herself) away and to think as one individual. I was not allowed to have individual thoughts or ideas. And the Marine Corps was basically the same. You were to think as one unit and not as a person, but as one unit. Jonason: And so, you’re training― Roberts: In–in the Marine Corps? Boot camp is basically the same. There was a lot of, uh, book learning to learn whatever. There was a lot of marching, learning to follow rules. Um, I don’t know if I can be any more specific than that. Jonason: Did they teach—you know—I know the Marine Corps taught makeup to some women. Roberts: (shaking her head) No. I was never taught about makeup. Jonason: You were—you weren’t taught ― Roberts: You weren’t even allowed to wear makeup. Jonason: (clears her throat) Okay. Roberts: Okay? The—one of the things I remember the most is your hair had to be short. It could touch the collar (points to her collarbone) but not cover the collar. But, again, I didn’t follow those rules and I got away with it. Jonason: Hm. Roberts: (sighs) I have a hard time conforming, still do. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: The rule was it could not—it could–it could touch but not cover, you know, the–the collar (gestures to her shoulder area). So, all I did was wear it up. And as long as I got up every day before Reveille was called, I made sure my hair was up and I had eyebrows on, because you weren’t allowed to wear make up either. Jonason: Oh. (laughs) Roberts: (shrugs) So― Jonason: So, you got your training in Parris Island. 2 �Roberts: Yes. Jonason: And then what happened? Where did you go after that? Roberts: Uh, I was given leave, for two weeks and I—while I was in boot camp, I had choices. I didn’t necessarily—I wouldn’t necessarily get those choices. But, I asked for San Diego, California. And I got California! (she smiles) Jonason: And why did you ask for San Diego, California? Roberts: Because I’d never been out of Ohio. Jonason: Oh, okay. And did they say―I guess they sent you to San Diego. Roberts: They did, all the way to Camp Pendleton. Jonason: Okay. And what year was that? Do you know? Roberts: I believe it was ’66, ’67, yeah. Jonason: Okay. And how–how were you assigned your job? Roberts: Uh, (sighs) that’s a good question. I assumed my job—Number one, I was a bit of older recruit, okay? And I had experience in working— Jonason: You said you were in your twenties. Roberts: I was around twenty-four. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: So, that made me a little bit older than most recruits coming in. They were eighteen, nineteen— Jonason: Oh! Roberts: —years old. Because I had the experience, they took that experience and they gave me an M.O.S., which was forty-one eleven, which was an Exchange person accou–accountant and Commissary accountant. Jonason: And you say you also did some kind of interviewing or training other Marines. Roberts: When I got into working for—in the Exchange—I did—I interviewed people to work in the Exchange, okay? Jonason: Okay. Roberts: And hired them. I worked in Personnel. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: And handled most stuff regarding that. Jonason: And how long did you do that? 3 �Roberts: For the three years that I was in. Jonason: And what do you remember best about your time at Camp Pendleton during that time. Roberts: I met my husband. Jonason: Ah! (chuckles) And how did you meet your husband? Roberts: He also worked in the Exchange. Of course, he was higher up than I was. And, he ran his own store. And, um, at times I was a switchboard―I would work the switchboard and relieve at lunch time. And we got to communicating on the switchboard, and he finally come over and introduced himself. Jonason: Oh! Roberts: And I don’t have to tell you, from that point on, we clicked! Jonason: Okay. Tell me about your switchboard work, because that doesn’t exist anymore, does it? Roberts: No― Jonason: What was that like? Roberts: ―not that I know of. Um, I enjoyed it, okay? It was work that I also did at the hospital when I worked for the Salvation Army [unintelligible]. And um, so because I had that experience it was on my record, so to speak. And when I went to work for the Exchange, I kind of relieved people. I worked in the office. We were all in the same facility. And I would relieve them for lunch, or if someone called in sick, or whatever, so― Jonason: How does the―most―myself, I have never run a switchboard. Roberts: Yes. Jonason: How would I go about doing that? Roberts: Oh, that’s kind of hard to say! (laughs) And that’s—you know—a switchboard! Um, it was just another way of communicating from phone to phone within the offices. And each phone had a number, and there was a number on the board, and there were the cords that you would plug in outside or you could plug them into each other. Jonason: Oh, okay. Roberts: Mm-hmm. Jonason: So, it’s like something you―like—I’m trying to think of what they’re called. Roberts: I can’t think of anything at this time that would―I could compare it to, except if you had a–a phone with buttons, you know. Jonason: Yeah. Okay. 4 �Roberts: You just plugged them in! Jonason: Interesting, interesting. And so, you were here for three years and what were your uniforms that you were required to wear while you were working and while you were doing other― Roberts: I always was in uniform. Jonason: Which was? Roberts: Summertime, wintertime. I worked with the uniform. Jonason: What― Roberts: I was in the Marine Corps. Jonason: —what kind of uniform? Roberts: In the summertime, we had a–a light uniform, fit for the weather. In the winter, we had a much heavier, darker-colored uniform. Jonason: Okay. And you always had to wear a cover outside? Roberts: Outside, always. Jonason: Okay. Is there anything about that work experience that you would like to tell us about? Roberts: Oh, you got to meet a lot of people! Jonason: Yeah? Roberts: Always. And uh, it was always—it was a bit fun, in a way, because you could for months communicate with an individual and talk and say, “How was your day?” and “Oh, I just had a baby,” or whatever, okay? And never, ever see their faces. Jonason: Uh, (chuckles) okay. Roberts: So, that was kind of different. Yes. And it was always a fun experience when they were able to come and say “Hi, I’m so-and-so. I work for―” whatever. Jonason: So, were there civilians that came in and shopped where you were? Roberts: Uh, absolutely! I mean, this was a Commissar―uh, well, at the time it was an Exchange, the Military Exchange. And of course, all civilians, troops― Jonason: Their families. Roberts: Their families, absolutely. Yeah. Jonason: Were there any special events that associated with your–your work? Roberts: Can you be more specific? Jonason: Did they hold any special events at—I guess—at the exchange. 5 �Roberts: No. We–we celebrated the Marine Corps birthday, uh― Jonason: Did they close down the store? Did you have spe―I mean, what did they do for that? (clears her throat) Roberts: Bec–being civilian, not a lot, okay? Because not only the military shopped there; their families did, which was not military, okay? Um, the―we would be closed on holidays. And, we were just like any outside, whether you were working at Target or J.C. Penny or whatever. Jonason: Okay. Um― (A second interviewer, Maryellen Cortellini, seems to be asking Leslee a question, because Leslee looks to her right, away from Faye.) Cortellini: (less audible) Where did you live when you first got to Camp Pendleton? Roberts: I didn’t hear the question. Jonason: Excuse me. What was the question? (It sounds as though Jonason turns to ask the Cortellini to repeat the question.) Cortellini: Where did she live? Jonason: Oh, where did you live when you first came to Camp Pendleton? Roberts: I lived in the W.M., Women Marine’s barracks. Um, it was not my cup of tea. And when I was able, I moved off base. It wasn’t quite, um, legal, but I did. I had a― (sighs) there was a―I can’t remember her rank. I think she was a Staff Sergeant, and she was being transferred to, um, Virginia, and she had pets, and she knew I did not like living in the barracks with a bunch of teenagers. So, she offered me her home if I would take care of her pets! And— Jonason: Oh! Roberts: —I moved off base, oh, within eight months or so and lived in Carlsbad. Jonason: Oh! Roberts: And took care of her home and her pets. Jonason: So, how long had you stayed in the Women Marine barracks themselves? Roberts: Uh, actually, it wasn’t even a full year. Jonason: Okay. And these were wooden buildings? Roberts: No. At the―these were new barracks that they had just recently built. Jonason: So, they were, what, squad based? Roberts: Squad based! Mm-hmm. Jonason: How many― 6 �Roberts: A great big― Jonason: ―bunks? Roberts: Well, I think we had about twenty in the squad bay I lived in. And you were judged— you were put in the squad bay according to your rank. Jonason: And so, you’re–you’re one bunk above and below? Roberts: Exactly. Jonason: And you were required to keep them a certain way. Roberts: Absolutely. Jonason: Regulation. Roberts: You had–you had, um, I can’t remember the exact term. Forgive me. Jonason: Junk on the bunk? Roberts: No, uh― Jonason: (laughs) That’s what I was told. Roberts: We―well, not then! We had to maintain and keep them clean, okay? And so, it was a–a group thing that was done once a week, no matter what your rank was. You were required, you know. Wash floors, windows, whatever. Jonason: Did you also do other things besides your job in maintaining the–the barracks? Did you― Roberts: Oh! Had a good time! (both she and Jonason chuckle) Jonason: Well, you did more than that, I know! (Roberts laughs) Did they have you do—picking up around the barracks, and― Roberts: Uh― Jonason: ―all that kind of stuff? Roberts: Yes. We had, um, um― Jonason: Field day? Roberts: Outside to maintain the—you know—the grass, and the bushes and whatever. Yes, that was also part of our requirement. We were to treat it like it was our home. And we would do those things if we were within our own home. So. Jonason: Had you ever gone to the Green Hat Club? Roberts: No. The Green Hat Club was after me. 7 �Jonason: Okay. Roberts: Okay? I’m not sure what year. Yes, there were a lot of, uh–uh, what do you call them, um― Cortellini: [inaudible] Roberts: —officers clubs. There were different clubs for different rank and of course I was a peon, so I―till I made sergeant, but yes. Jonason: How did ch–becoming sergeant change your life? Roberts: It gave―it made me more independent. I didn’t have to follow some of the rules and regulations. Jonason: So, did you live―you said you lived in the barracks about a year. So, you lived in the– in the Staff Sergeant’s house about two? Roberts: About two years. Yes. Jonason: Okay. And then what did― Roberts: Not legally, but I did. (both she and Jonason laugh.) Jonason: Well, nowadays, you’d get permissions or something. Yeah. Roberts: I’m not sure (smiles wide). Jonason: (laughs) Um, is there any other part of that work that you’d like to share with us? Roberts: As far as the military is concerned? Jonason: Mm-hmm. Roberts: In a way, um, it was―I think once I left the military, I was more conscious of my responsibility when I was in the Marine Corps. Jonason: Oh! Roberts: The motto of a W.M., which we were called—Women Marines—was to release a fighting man. And of course, it was during the Vietnam War, and it was a difficult time for the United States and for everyone. So, I didn’t think about it a lot but once I left the military, I realized what my job was or had been, to help win that war. Jonason: You–you appreciated it more? Roberts: Much more. Jonason: And so, then when you left you got married? Roberts: Yes, I did. Jonason: And where did you go? 8 �Roberts: In fact, I don’t know. I don’t remember all the times, but my husband who was stationed here at Camp Pendleton and his career was basically here, okay? He was a Gunnery Sergeant and he owned a home in Oceanside. And so, when we—naturally when we got married, I moved into his home in Oceanside. Jonason: And how long did you stay there? Roberts: (sighs) Uh, quite a few years. We didn’t move out—I guess I was there at least five years, at least five years, and then we bought a home elsewhere in San Diego. He retired. Jonason: Why did you like San Diego? Roberts: He liked San Diego. Jonason: Did you? Roberts: Yes, I guess so. My children were born here. It became my home. Uh, yes. Yes. I liked it. Jonason: Did you work outside the home once you were married? Roberts: I did, but not until my children got a little older. I actually went to work for the Marine Corps Exchange. (both she and Jonason laugh) Jonason: Okay. And how long did you do that? Roberts: Uh, now you’re asking a question you have to think about. It was a few years. Jonason: Yeah? Roberts: I would say five or six years. Yeah. Jonason: Okay. Well, that’s good. Cortellini: What was the Marine Corps reaction to your announcement that you wanted to get married? Roberts: I–I— Jonason: Oh, you said—Yeah!—How did you―when you decided to get married, there were regulations that you had to jump through before you could do that. Roberts: [chuckles] Yes. Jonason: Both you and your husband. Roberts: Being―being a–a low rank, number one, and being a woman Marine, I had to ask permission from my C.O., the sergeant in charge, and—which I had to do. Uh, between you and me, I did it because it was considered one of my responsibilities. Otherwise, I thought it was a silly rule. Jonason: [chuckles] And your husband had to do the same thing, right? 9 �Roberts: Well, he did. He did. And my―for me, he did it for me. Not so much for himself. He’d been married before. His first wife had passed. So, um, he was a–a bit youn–older than I am or was. And um, so no he didn’t. But, he did, for me. Yes. Jonason: He asked permission for you. Roberts: Right. We went together. Jonason: Oh! Very interesting. And were there any other situa―parts of that that were required? Roberts: No, because when we married, there–there was no problem. But because of our age, okay, we wanted a family. And the–the motto of the Marine Corps was if we wanted you to have a child, we’d issued you one. Jonason: I see. Roberts: So, as soon as I became pregnant, I was automatically dis–discharged. Jonason: (coughs) Excuse me. Roberts: I got an honorable discharge, but, yes. Jonason: Huh. Roberts: So, that’s how I left. Jonason: Interesting. And were you―after you were married, you moved into his house. Were you still a Marine at that poin–time? Roberts: Yes. Jonason: I’m trying to clarify that. Roberts: Uh, until I became― Jonason: Pregnant. Roberts: ―pregnant. Yes. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: Mm-hmm. Jonason: Okay. ( Roberts: We lived there for two children. Jonason: (chuckles) Roberts: He retired. He went to work for the Post Office and we moved into San Diego area. Terry Norwood: Where were your children—(barely audible) first and second—born? Roberts: Camp Pendleton, at the old hospital. 10 �Jonason: Because he was still in the military? Or― Roberts: No. We were―because he was what is considered a lifer, someone who put in twentytwo years of his life. He continued to have privileges— Jonason: Ah. Roberts: —military privileges. Jonason: So, he wasn’t in the Corps still, when they were born? Roberts: No. Jonason: And what did he do? Roberts: My husband went to work for the U.S. Post Office. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: Mm-hmm. He took the test and passed and–and continued to work there for thirty years. Jonason: Wonderful! Roberts: Mm-hmm. Jonason: And I understand that you’re still living in San Diego area. Roberts: Uh, actually I live in the same house. Jonason: (chuckles) Oh, my goodness! Roberts: Live in the same house. We bought a new home outside of Poway and I’ve lived there ever since. I think it was 1972, or something like that. Jonason: Wow! You must like it there. Roberts: It’s paid for! (she chuckles and Jonason laughs) For sure! Jonason: Are there parts of the community that you enjoy more than others? Roberts: In–in San Diego? San Diego?— Jonason: In Poway, San Diego County. Roberts: Uh, you know, I had two other children born there, and, um, it—number one, it was very new. We were one of the first housing developments in the area. So, basically, I watched it grow (raises her hands to indicate something growing) into this huge community. And, um, I felt like it was home. And yes, I do. I like it there. I can’t think of any place else. Jonason: Yes. Norwood: (unintelligible, but sounds like “Chopped Liver”) 11 �Roberts: Uh, I’m not sure. A pool, oh (shrugs)—as far as activities—(looking at Cortellini) is that–is that what we’re talking about? Okay— Norwood: What do you like about the community? Roberts: Oh! I did—yes, I’m talking about the beginning of living in the community and why I stayed there. Uh, I’m very active. Well, I won’t say active but I have a lot of activities within the community since I’ve lived there. So— I like to swim and do water aerobics, and— Jonason: This is a community pool, I take it? Or— Roberts: Yes, it is. Number one, I–I got to watch the community grow. Like I said, we were one of the first developments in the area, housing developments, and so I got to watch it grow. Jonason: There must be a story about being one of the first of the development. Was there— Roberts: No— Jonason: —an event or something? Roberts: —number one, now you want me to be silly? It was a ch— Jonason: No. (laughs) Roberts: Oh, okay. (laughs also) No, it was just a very new community and it was fun greeting all the new people and watching different developments grow, watching schools being built and my children being able to go to those schools. I know— Jonason: Did you get to pick specific flooring and that type of thing in your house wh—at that time? Was that something that— Roberts: Pretty much. Jonason: —Yeah? Roberts: Pretty much so. Yes. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: I mean, the house was built and then I did what I wanted to the inside of it (smiles wide) and outside, of course. Jonason: But that wasn’t with the builder, though. That was on your own, right? Roberts: That was on my own. Jonason: Interesting. Okay. Roberts: Yes. Jonason: (apparently she turns to Cortellini) Are there other questions that you would like to see asked? 12 �Cortellini: Um, it would be nice if she (rest of question is inaudible, but seems to be talking about entering something into a document) Jonason: Well, we’ll have that in the–in the file. Um— Cortellini: Just the fact that she [Cortellini clarification: left her close-knit family and friends, and her small town of Eastlake, Ohio to travel all the way to South Carolina to enlist in Marine Corps bootcamp. How brave and courageous as a young woman to make that monumental decision.] Roberts: (turning her head from Cortellini back to Jonason, smiling) She does— Jonason: Well, I think she–she went in from the frying pan into the fire— Roberts: The fire. Jonason: —didn’t you! (laughs) Roberts: Amen! (laughs also) Norwood: But she’s a cast iron skillet. Roberts: (turning to Norwood): Pardon me? Norwood: But you’re a cast iron skillet. Roberts: Oh, is that—Oh, I–I’ve never quite thought of myself that way, but— Jonason: (continuing to laugh) Yeah, but hey— Roberts: —I will take the compliment. (turns back to Jonason) Norwood: And the other thing I think you could give perspective on is how the military has grown since you’ve been here. Roberts: Oh, absolutely. Uh, as–for women? Yes, absolutely. Uh, it was—we were considered second class citizens back in 1966. Like I think I said previously, we were given the title of releasing a fighter–a fighting man, okay? And we were supposed to, uh—our jobs basically were to fill in where the men would have to leave and we would fill in and take their jobs. So, it was— it’s different today. Women join the military exactly the reason that men do. They want the— They want to do something for their country, number one. I can’t speak for all of them, but yes. I think they— Jonason: Okay. Roberts: —they have the same honor and privileges that they–you–this country offers their military. So, yes. Jonason: If you had a message for a young Marine today, what would it be? Roberts: Whoa! (Jonason laughs) Um, I really wouldn’t have a message for them. It—Number one, I believe it’s something that they—nowadays—let me put it this way. Nowadays, I think 13 �both men and women join the military because they want t–to, because it offers them something that they desire. Back in the day of, say, 1966, uh, men were drafted. Okay? And women were second class citizens. But they did it anyways, (shrugs) whatever their purpose—for their country; for themselves; for their family. So, times have changed. Jonason: Okay! Well, thank you very much. Roberts: You’re very welcome. [the video then stops and starts, and cuts off the beginning portion of what Leslee Roberts is saying, but she continues speaking, turning to Cortellini now:] Roberts: —[San Di]ego people. Or we could become Poway people living in San Diego. Norwood: Mm. Okay. And that, I can’t tell you how huge that is to the education—well, this is not necessar—this is going off on a tangent— Roberts: No, no. It had a–had a big—yes. Because— Norwood: It did! Roberts: just a community— Norwood: It did. Roberts: Mira Mesa, down the road is San Diego. Norwood: Yeah. Roberts: So, we were given a choice, and we made it. And we made the Poway U—part, we helped make Poway Unified School what they are. Norwood: That right there tells— Jonason: Is key. Cortellini: —what this woman is about. So, to–I–just—and— Roberts: I never thought about it, but— Cortellini: (inaudible due to Jonason asking a further question) Jonason: So, you’re saying that there was no Poway schools when you— Roberts: Poway, yes. Poway had their own little, uh— Cortellini: No, it wasn’t. Roberts: —They didn’t even have a high—They— Cortellini: They didn’t have a—They were not a unified school district until late— Roberts: No, they weren’t. Until much later. 14 �Jonason: But, did–did they have a school? Roberts: Oh yes. They had several, um, elementary schools. What was that? (turns from Jonason to Cortellini) They had Poway High— Cortellini: They had one— Roberts: — and one middle school. Cortellini: —Mm-hmm. Roberts: —one middle school. Cortellini: And they, and they were— Roberts: (turns to Jonason) Midland. Yeah, it was Midland. (holds up her left hand) Cortellini: They were part of Escondido. They weren’t really in their s–unified school district,— Roberts: No, they weren’t considered— Cortellini: but they were— Roberts: No. Cortellini: But they— Roberts: It was— Cortellini: And then we had [inaudible] Roberts: It was–Actually, it was–it was considered—it was kind of a country town. Cortellini: Yes. Roberts: It was just this country little, country city. They were themselves, okay? And, um, they did have schools for their kids and whatnot. But that was very small, very limited. I can’t even begin to tell you—Even now, there’s only one main— Cortellini: Okay. I’m st— Roberts: —road, going through Poway, and it’ll always be the main th–main road through Poway because everyone built to the sidewalks! There’s no way of widening it. (Jonason laughs) There’s no way of expanding it. (Jonason clears her throat) It’s all the way up to, uh, Ramona, bay–basically. Cortellini: So, now, I’m going to the Poway Museum and the R.B. Museum to see what historical data is there, because based on more— Roberts: Now— Cortellini: —info about the school district and how it came to be, because— Roberts: See, now Rancho Bernardo was— 15 �Cortellini: —that is really— Roberts: Rancho Bernardo was always there. It was considered more—back in (lowers voice) those (back to speaking voice) days, it was, uh, for seniors. Cortellini: Seniors. Roberts: It was more of a senior place. Cortellini: It was a community planned— Roberts: And um, yes. Cortellini: Yeah. Roberts: And, uh, they did attend, those that were–that lived in, say, Rancho Bernardo. They did attend the Poway school. Okay? Those were the—That was the only school district around. San Diego was a little far ou– far away for them. Cortellini: But–but it wasn’t even a formed Unified School District in the early 70s. Roberts: Till much later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So— Cortellini: Okay. And then, also, um, you’re–you’re being modest. You haven’t been asked to write your history, so I get it. Roberts: (turns to Jonason and shrugs) Cortellini: But just sitting here, I’m thinking of how you guys fought for the community center,— Roberts: Oh, yeah. Cortellini: —the pool that you swim in. Roberts: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Cortellini: You know? All the things— Jonason: And what happened with the community center? Roberts: It was a—We wanted it. They made it. Um, (sighs) how do I say it? It–it wa–I guess—it wasn’t— Cortellini: The city— Roberts: —exactly a community—how–how–what would you call the pool, ‘cuz I’ve been going there for twenty years. Cortellini: Yeah. It was a community center. Roberts: It was. Cortellini: Um, and the city decided to change—all that nastiness out of my mouth real quick— 16 �Roberts: You can say it. I–my ears are used to it. (Jonason chuckles) Cortellini: Then, um, this—When the city decided that to change their Charter and a lot of their zoning and who they were going to support or–or–in–like–They were no longer going to have a senior center. Okay? And they were— Jonason: Oh. Cortellini: —no longer going to have a community pool. But the community rallied— Roberts: But it was considered growing, and they wanted to grow into something besides Poway which we kind of fought for. Cortellini: And, yet, they didn’t want to bring in a Y.M.C.A. They wanted to be— Roberts: No. Cortellini: —their own thing and have it be bigger. But it’s just not what the people wanted at the time. So, these ladies were part of the movement. Roberts: Well, back then, yeah, we kind of steadfast and we voted. Jonason: How were you—How old were your kids at that time? Roberts: Oh they were— Cortellini: Oh, this was only like ten years ago. Roberts: Yeah. Well— Cortellini: But–but I—but I’ve only known you for maybe ten— Roberts: Sss—Yeah. Bu–bu–well, when they started building schools—This was the thing that– that we fought for. Number one was technically, technically I live in San Diego. Okay? But Poway is our school district. Poway is our hospitals. Poway is, you know, all the stuff that makes a city a city. We were able to stay in that group, and—well, Rancho Bernardo, too. But we— whereas just down the road about three or four miles, we have San Diego, Mira Mesa, some of the other ones. Cortellini: It’s very— Roberts: They’re all San Diego, so they have to follow the San Diego taxes, the San Diego whatever, whatever. Cortellini: Well, we do too. Roberts: No, no, I know. But I’m trying to think of things. Cortellini: It’s very convoluted up where we are. It took me a while to wrap my head around— Roberts: Everything. 17 �Cortellini: —how in the world could we be part of Poway Unified when we’re a San Di—city of San Diego address. It was really complex. Roberts: We—But we kind of fought for that. In fact, I can remember Mount Carmel— Cortellini: Well, I’m grateful (chuckles) Roberts: —Mount Carmel wa—uh, all the kids in my–in our area went to Poway High, went to Midland Junior High, okay? S–and–and the elementary school. And my kids started off at Me– Meadowbrook. Meadowbrook? (looks toward Jonason) Cortellini: Yeah. Roberts: Whatever, for kindergarten through ninth, (Jonason coughs) or whatever it was, until we fought for our own schools (Jonason coughs) and our own area. Cortellini: Hhm, that’s interesting. Roberts: So, I mean, yeah. I can remember when they built the high school. Cortellini: Do you? Roberts: Carmel Mountain. Cortellini: You’re a legend in my community, girl. Roberts: (laughs) I don’t know about that, but— (Jonason laughs) we didn’t—Poway, um, was recognized as having a very good school system, okay? Or, whatever. And we wanted to continue with what Poway was giving to our students. Where San Diego was—I mean, look at San Diego. San Diego is a huge place, and it’s gotten huger, so— Jonason: Is Poway considered part of North County? Roberts: Yes. Jonason: Okay. Roberts: Yes. So— Norwood: And, for many, many, many, many, many years, Rancho Bernardo, where I live—She lives in Poway, but sh–very close to R.B., um, but she’s not affected like we are because she’s in Poway. So, R.B. is the farthest north of San Diego. Roberts: San Diego, yep (nodding). Norwood: She is right beneath us. Roberts: On the edge, Mm-hmm. Norwood: We are North County and we are–don’t—We have to fight for the city of San Diego to fix our streets, to— Roberts: To do whatever. 18 �Norwood: To–to do whatever we need— Roberts: Right. Norwood: —because we’re so far north. They forget about us. They’ll take our tax revenue— Roberts: Oh, they do take that! Norwood: —but they’ll forget about us, which is one of–just one of many reasons why we wanted to integrate into our own sch–school system up there. Roberts: Oh, no. I— Norwood: Because it was so small, we could be more vocal. We could give more input into a smaller school district versus being a part of San Diego. Roberts: Well, parents were included. You were invited to come to the–to the school board meetings. You were, you know what I mean? You were invited to participate in becoming a school board member—I mean—so, you were part of it. Where as far as San Diego is concerned, which is—like I said—just five miles down the road, um, they were totally into, uh, San Diego, (shrugs) Mira Mesa and all the ones around there now. So— (shrugs) Jonason: Yeah. Roberts: Aah, we did that a bit, I guess. I don’t— (laughs) We fought for it. Jonason: Well, it sounds like you’re a very active person in your community. Cortellini: Yes. Roberts: Uh, (sighs, shaking her head), that was a long time ago. This old lady has settled in. (she and Jonason laugh) I’m not as active as I used to be. Cortellini: I just wanted to say. You know, when I first met Leslee, before I knew she was a Marine, over time, I started calling her “our fearless leader” (Roberts and Jonason laugh) at the pool, because she had this wonderful way of recruiting more people and she— Roberts: I had a mouth! Cortellini: She singlehandedly— Jonason: It’s a good thing! Roberts: I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut. Cortellini: She–but she s— Roberts: When I don’t agree with you, you’re gonna hear about it. (all laugh) Cortellini: She’s still [Cortellini clarification: humble] about it. But, she singlehandedly turned a water aerobics, or water exercise class into a family. That’s how we became friends. Roberts: Yes. 19 �Jonason: Oh. Cortellini: She roped me in, and she writes–ropes in everybody! (laughs) Norwood: Yes. She makes you feel wanted. Cortellini: She makes you feel like a family, and then makes everyone feels welcome, and now, they—you wouldn’t believe the size of our water aerobics. We’re up to forty-plus people (somewhat unintelligible, faint voice, and there is background traffic noise) Roberts: I know. Cortellini: And that’s the summer. Roberts: Well, I think we have around, about thirty permanent, you know, oldies but goodies. Cortellini: That’s—but that’s also— Norwood: (can’t distinguish what she says, due to crosstalk) Roberts: In the summertime. Cortellini: Seriously. I give you credit for that, and you really— Roberts: Oh, not totally. There were— Cortellini: But, she’s— Roberts: Look at Doreen, Cortellini: And see, that’s where Norwood: (unintelligible, due to crosstalk) Roberts: Doreen. (Norwood and Cortellini crosstalk; unintelligible) Roberts: Yeah. It wasn’t just me. Cortellini: (first few words unintelligible) incorporated those values, a team and— Jonason: You feel that? Do you feel that the Marine Corps has helped you be organized and get people together? Roberts: I never thought about it, ‘cuz I was always a mouth. Jonason: Well, but— Roberts: Why do you think they kicked me out of the Sisterhood. Jonason: Because you needed to be a Marine. (laughs) Roberts: No. Because I didn’t fit in. (laughs) 20 �Cortellini: What did we go to the Mayor’s office for? Norwood: Oh, that was film week again. (next few words unintelligible) Cortellini: Okay. Roberts: (nodding) Yeah. Norwood: Still! Still! Cortellini: Leslee has—I know—Leslee has been an advocate for myself, my project, my books. She— Roberts: (to Jonason) Like I said, I’m a mouth. Cortellini: She has shared my books with everybody. Roberts: (to Jonason) And sometimes, if you’re loud enough, people just don’t say no to you. Norwood: I called her my agent there—she still is my agent (rest of sentence is unintelligible). 21 �GLOSSARY Carmel Mountain (pg.18) C.O. (pg.9) Doreen (pg.20) Green Hat Club (pg.7) Gunnery Sergeant (pg.9) Kingsley (pg.15) Marine Corps Base, Camp Pendleton (pg.1) Marine Corps Exchange (pg.9) Marine Corps Mechanized Museum (pg.1) Meadowbrook [CA] (pg.18) Midland Junior High (pg.18) M.O.S. (pg.3) Mount Carmel (pg.17) Parris Island (pg.2) Poway High (pg.14) Poway Museum (pg.15) Poway Unified School [District] (pg.14) Ramona [CA] (pg.15) Rancho Bernardo (pg.16-19) R.B. Museum (pg.15) Reveille (pg.2) Sisters of Charity (pg.1,2,20) Staff Sergeant (pg.8) W.M. (Women Marines [barracks]) (pg.5,6,8) 22 �23 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Roberts, Leslee K. Interview transcript, November 11, 2022. Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Leslee K. Roberts, a Marine Corps veteran, who shares her experiences growing up in Ohio, deciding not to become a nun and choosing to leave Ohio by joining the U.S. Marine Corps. She discusses some military regulations, meeting and marrying her husband, and her various homes in North County. She talks about her involvement and support of the Poway community as well as Poway’s early development. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Leslee K. Roberts Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Faye A. Jonason Maryellen Cortellini Melissa Martin Terry Norwood Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-23 Subject The topic of the resource Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Korean War, 1950-1953 Switchboard operators United States. Marine Corps Veterans -- United States Women marines Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Poway (Calif.) 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RobertsLeslee_JonasonFaye_2022-11-29_transcript Community history North County Oral History Initiative Veteran experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Faye A. Jonason Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Leslee K. Roberts OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RobertsLeslee_JonasonFaye_2022-11-29.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Roberts, Leslee K. Interview November 11, 2022. SC027-23 0:38:15 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection Community oral histories CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm United States. Marine Corps Poway (Calif.) Women marines Korean War, 1950-1953 Veterans -- United States Telephone operators Leslee K. Roberts Faye A. Jonason mp4 RobertsLeslee_JonasonFaye_2022-11-29.mp4 1:|16(2)|32(7)|45(3)|64(2)|86(17)|113(4)|144(2)|174(4)|195(17)|225(13)|257(15)|284(3)|310(18)|335(4)|374(2)|406(7)|436(16)|459(15)|493(8)|511(16)|545(5)|594(12)|616(5)|639(6)|682(5)|719(11)|736(4)|753(13)|808(4)|852(2)|898(2)|932(5)|953(11)|989(11)|1019(4)|1050(9)|1089(10)|1156(10)|1167(16) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/73ed728127e92b4e01be2617427312f6.mp4 Other video English 0 Entering the Marine Corps/ Boot camp training Leslee Roberts discusses her decision to join the Marine Corps during the Vietnam War. She recounts growing up in Cleveland, OH and how she had originally joined the Sisters of Charity, but that her independent personality made her a difficult fit to become a nun. Her brother who had ambitions to join the Marine Corps later introduced her to a recruiter and she enlisted. Leslee also discusses her boot camp training at Parris Island and the strict grooming rules that were expected of women Marines. Cleveland (Ohio) ; Marine corps ; Nuns ; Parris Island (S.C.) ; Sisters of Charity ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Vietnam War ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 349 Assignment at Camp Pendleton Leslee Roberts discusses being assigned to Camp Pendleton in 1966 or 1967. She was around twenty-four years old. She worked in the Marine Corps Exchange and trained other Marines due to her previous work experience. It was during this period in which she met her husband. Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Marine Corps ; Marine Corps Exchange ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 510 Working as a switchboard operator Leslee Roberts recounts her work as a switchboard operator in the Marines. She began this work prior to joining the Marines when she worked at the Salvation Army’s hospital. She briefly explains the technology behind the switchboard. She describes the most enjoyable part of the work was interacting with other people and learning about their day-to-day lives. Leslee also describes the Marine Corps uniforms that were worn during the summertime and wintertime. Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Marine Corps ; Marine Corps Exchange ; Marine Corps uniforms ; Military uniforms ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Switchboard operator ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 746 Women Marine barracks at Camp Pendleton Leslee Roberts discusses living at the Women Marine barracks when she was assigned to Camp Pendleton. She describes the experience as unpleasant and lived there for less than a year before moving off base. She explains that the Woman Marine barracks were “squad based” and that Marines had to maintain their quarters to strict regulations. Leslee also briefly describes the social life in the barracks and how rank and rules affected daily life for the Marines. Barracks ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Marine Corps ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military ; Women Marine barracks 0 1042 Marriage Leslee Roberts describes her marriage to her husband who she met while assigned to Camp Pendleton. Her husband was a Gunnery Sergeant. They moved to Oceanside, CA after getting married and lived in Oceanside for five years before moving to Poway, CA. She explains that she continued to work for the Marine Corps Exchange after getting married. She also recounts the various military regulations that she and her husband had to jump through in order to get married. She explains that due to her low rank and her gender, she had to ask permission to marry her husband from her Commanding Officer. She also explains that she received an honorable discharge once she became pregnant. Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Gunnery Sergeant ; Marine Corps ; Marine Corps Exchange ; Marriage ; Military regulations ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Poway (Calif.) ; Pregnancy ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 1318 Living in San Diego County Leslee Roberts describes her current life in San Diego County. She has lived in the same house in Poway, CA since 1972. She explains how Poway was a new community and that she enjoyed watching it grow. She recalls participating in events, greeting new citizens in Poway, and watching the construction of various developments and schools. Community center ; Developming community ; North County San Diego ; Poway (Calif.) ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego County ; Schools 0 1545 Reflecting on the Marine Corps Leslee Roberts reflects on the Marine Corps from a gender lens. She explains that while women were seen as second-class citizens during the Vietnam War, that men and women both enlist for the same reasons. She expresses her how she is glad to see women being granted the same honor and privileges as men in the military in the twenty-first century. Gender ; Marine Corps ; Sexism ; U.S. marines ; U.S. military ; Women in the Marine Corps ; Women in the military 0 1676 The community of Poway, CA Leslee Roberts continues to reflects on the community of Poway, CA. She recalls the history of Poway’s schools that eventually led to the formation of Poway Unified School District. She also discusses the fight to create a community center and a community pool. Leslee also discusses the complicated relationship between North County and the City of San Diego, such as North County citizens having to abide by San Diego tax laws or relying on San Diego to fix their streets. Community center ; Developing community ; North County San Diego ; Poway (Calif.) ; Poway Unified School District ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego County ; Schools ; Taxes 0 Oral history An oral history interview with Leslee K. Roberts, a Marine Corps veteran, who shares her experiences growing up in Ohio, deciding not to become a nun and choosing to leave Ohio by joining the U.S. Marine Corps. She discusses some military regulations, meeting and marrying her husband, and her various homes in North County. She talks about her involvement and support of the Poway community as well as Poway’s early development. Faye Jonason: Good afternoon. It is November 29th, 2002―22, and we are at the&#13 ; Marine Corps Mechanized Museum. And I am interviewing―my name is Faye Jonason&#13 ; and I’m interviewing Leslee Roberts, and we’re doing this for CSU San Marcos’s&#13 ; Program for Oral History and for Marine Corps Base, Camp Pendleton’s Oral&#13 ; History Archives. So, thank you for being here.&#13 ; &#13 ; Leslee Roberts: My pleasure.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And I’m going to ask you your name—your full name—and for you to spell&#13 ; your last name, please.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes. My name is Leslee Kaye Roberts. That’s R-O-B-E-R-T-S.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And you were in the Marine Corps!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes,&#13 ; &#13 ; ma’am.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: So, I’d like to know, very much, how you came about the decision and&#13 ; how you came to the Marine Corps.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (sighs) That’s a bit of a story. Um, number one, I have a―I had a&#13 ; brother and it was his dream to become a Marine. He was about four years younger&#13 ; than I and that’s all he ever talked about. Number one. That was not originally&#13 ; my ambition. I joined the Sisters of Charity to become a nun and that did not&#13 ; work out too well. I’m very independent individual, had hard time conforming.&#13 ; So, I was told that I would not fit with the Sisters of Charity. So, I left.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Now this was in Cleveland?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: This was in Cleveland. Uh, like&#13 ; &#13 ; I was, uh, in my twenties, and I had no job, and I bounced around for a while,&#13 ; and my brother—bless his heart—kept telling me “Join the Marine Corps. Join the&#13 ; Marine Corps.” It was something that he had desired and something that he worked&#13 ; at for—all through his high school years. He even knew the, um, recruiter, okay?&#13 ; So, he introduced me to the recruiter and the young man convinced me&#13 ; that—what–what’s three years—okay? So, at the time I was doing nothing, and I&#13 ; said, all right. And I put my hand in the air and I became a Marine.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (laughs) What did your family think about that?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: They weren’t too happy. My mom—she always went along with whatever&#13 ; decision I made,&#13 ; &#13 ; within reason. My dad took it very hard. It was during the Vietnam War, and he&#13 ; even laid his head in my lap and cried, “Please don’t do this!” But it was too&#13 ; late. I already had my hand in the air and I belonged to the United States of America.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (chuckles) Okay. So, what happened next?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I went to bootcamp!&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Where?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Parris Island, and spent a good s–almost eight weeks—I guess it was—in training.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: What did they train you to do?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: To be honest, as I kind of mentioned here before, um, the whole idea of&#13 ; boot camp wasn’t any different than becoming a sister for Sisters of Charity.&#13 ; (Jonason laughs) The whole idea of both institutions was to take my personality,&#13 ; take me&#13 ; &#13 ; (points to herself) away and to think as one individual. I was not allowed to&#13 ; have individual thoughts or ideas. And the Marine Corps was basically the same.&#13 ; You were to think as one unit and not as a person, but as one unit.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And so, you’re training―&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: In–in the Marine Corps? Boot camp is basically the same. There was a&#13 ; lot of, uh, book learning to learn whatever. There was a lot of marching,&#13 ; learning to follow rules. Um, I don’t know if I can be any more specific than that.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Did they teach—you know—I know the Marine Corps taught makeup to some women.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (shaking her head) No. I was never taught about makeup.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: You were—you weren’t taught ―&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: You weren’t even allowed to wear makeup.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (clears her throat) Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Okay? The—one of the things I remember the most is your hair had to be short.&#13 ; &#13 ; It could touch the collar (points to her collarbone) but not cover the collar.&#13 ; But, again, I didn’t follow those rules and I got away with it.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Hm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (sighs) I have a hard time conforming, still do.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: The rule was it could not—it could–it could touch but not cover, you&#13 ; know, the–the collar (gestures to her shoulder area). So, all I did was wear it&#13 ; up. And as long as I got up every day before Reveille was called, I made sure my&#13 ; hair was up and I had eyebrows on, because you weren’t allowed to wear make up either.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh. (laughs)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (shrugs) So―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: So, you got your training in Parris Island.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And then what happened? Where did you go after that?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, I was given leave, for two weeks and I—while I was in boot camp, I&#13 ; had choices. I didn’t&#13 ; &#13 ; necessarily—I wouldn’t necessarily get those choices. But, I asked for San&#13 ; Diego, California. And I got California! (she smiles)&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And why did you ask for San Diego, California?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Because I’d never been out of Ohio.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh, okay. And did they say―I guess they sent you to San Diego.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: They did, all the way to Camp Pendleton.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. And what year was that? Do you know?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I believe it was ’66, ’67, yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. And how–how were you assigned your job?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, (sighs) that’s a good question. I assumed my job—Number one, I was&#13 ; a bit of older recruit, okay? And I had experience in working—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: You said you were in your twenties.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I was around twenty-four.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: So, that made me a little bit older than most recruits coming in. They&#13 ; were eighteen, nineteen—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —years old. Because I had the experience, they took that experience and&#13 ; they gave me an M.O.S., which was forty-one eleven, which was an Exchange person&#13 ; accou–accountant and Commissary accountant.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And you say you also did some kind of interviewing or training other Marines.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: When I got into working for—in the Exchange—I did—I interviewed people&#13 ; to work in the Exchange, okay?&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: And hired them. I worked in Personnel.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: And handled most stuff regarding that.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And how long did you do that?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: For the three years that I was in.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And what do you remember best about your time at Camp Pendleton during&#13 ; that time.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I met my husband.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Ah! (chuckles) And how did you meet your husband?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: He also worked&#13 ; &#13 ; in the Exchange. Of course, he was higher up than I was. And, he ran his own&#13 ; store. And, um, at times I was a switchboard―I would work the switchboard and&#13 ; relieve at lunch time. And we got to communicating on the switchboard, and he&#13 ; finally come over and introduced himself.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: And I don’t have to tell you, from that point on, we clicked!&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. Tell me about your switchboard work, because that doesn’t exist&#13 ; anymore, does it?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: What was that like?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: ―not that I know of. Um, I enjoyed it, okay? It was work that I also&#13 ; did at the hospital when I worked for the Salvation Army (unintelligible). And&#13 ; um, so because I had that experience it was on my record, so to speak. And when&#13 ; I went to work for the Exchange, I kind of relieved people. I worked in the office.&#13 ; &#13 ; We were all in the same facility. And I would relieve them for lunch, or if&#13 ; someone called in sick, or whatever, so―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: How does the―most―myself, I have never run a switchboard.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: How would I go about doing that?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh, that’s kind of hard to say! (laughs) And that’s—you know—a&#13 ; switchboard! Um, it was just another way of communicating from phone to phone&#13 ; within the offices. And each phone had a number, and there was a number on the&#13 ; board, and there were the cords that you would plug in outside or you could plug&#13 ; them into each other.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh, okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: So, it’s like something you―like—I’m trying to think of what they’re called.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I can’t think of anything at this time that would―I could compare it&#13 ; to, except if you had a–a phone with buttons, you know.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Yeah. Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: You just plugged them in!&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Interesting, interesting. And so, you were here for three years and what&#13 ; &#13 ; were your uniforms that you were required to wear while you were working and&#13 ; while you were doing other―&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I always was in uniform.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Which was?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Summertime, wintertime. I worked with the uniform.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: What―&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I was in the Marine Corps.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: —what kind of uniform?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: In the summertime, we had a–a light uniform, fit for the weather. In&#13 ; the winter, we had a much heavier, darker-colored uniform.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. And you always had to wear a cover outside?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Outside, always.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. Is there anything about that work experience that you would like&#13 ; to tell us about?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh, you got to meet a lot of people!&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Yeah?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Always. And uh, it was always—it was a bit fun, in a way, because you&#13 ; could for months communicate with an individual and talk and say, “How was your day?”&#13 ; &#13 ; and “Oh, I just had a baby,” or whatever, okay? And never, ever see their faces.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Uh, (chuckles) okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: So, that was kind of different. Yes. And it was always a fun experience&#13 ; when they were able to come and say “Hi, I’m so-and-so. I work for―” whatever.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: So, were there civilians that came in and shopped where you were?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, absolutely! I mean, this was a Commissar―uh, well, at the time it&#13 ; was an Exchange, the Military Exchange. And of course, all civilians, troops―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Their families.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Their families, absolutely. Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Were there any special events that associated with your–your work?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Can you be more specific?&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Did they hold any special events at—I guess—at the exchange.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No. We–we celebrated the Marine Corps birthday, uh―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Did they close down the store? Did you have spe―I mean, what did they&#13 ; do for that?&#13 ; &#13 ; (clears her throat)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Bec–being civilian, not a lot, okay? Because not only the military&#13 ; shopped there ; their families did, which was not military, okay? Um, the―we&#13 ; would be closed on holidays. And, we were just like any outside, whether you&#13 ; were working at Target or J.C. Penny or whatever.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. Um―&#13 ; &#13 ; (A second interviewer, Maryellen Cortellini, seems to be asking Leslee a&#13 ; question, because Leslee looks to her right, away from Faye.)&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: (less audible) Where did you live when you first got to Camp Pendleton?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I didn’t hear the question.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Excuse me. What was the question? (It sounds as though Jonason turns to&#13 ; ask the Cortellini to repeat the question.)&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Where did she live?&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh, where did you live when you first came to Camp Pendleton?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I lived in the W.M., Women Marine’s barracks. Um, it was not my cup of&#13 ; tea. And when I was able, I moved off base. It wasn’t quite, um, legal, but I did.&#13 ; &#13 ; I had a― (sighs) there was a―I can’t remember her rank. I think she was a Staff&#13 ; Sergeant, and she was being transferred to, um, Virginia, and she had pets, and&#13 ; she knew I did not like living in the barracks with a bunch of teenagers. So,&#13 ; she offered me her home if I would take care of her pets! And—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —I moved off base, oh, within eight months or so and lived in Carlsbad.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: And took care of her home and her pets.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: So, how long had you stayed in the Women Marine barracks themselves?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, actually, it wasn’t even a full year.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. And these were wooden buildings?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No. At the―these were new barracks that they had just recently built.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: So, they were, what, squad based?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Squad based! Mm-hmm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: How many―&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: A great big―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: ―bunks?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Well, I think we had about twenty in the squad bay I lived in. And you&#13 ; were judged—you were put in the squad bay according to your rank.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And so, you’re–you’re one bunk above and below?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Exactly.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And you were required to keep them a certain way.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Absolutely.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Regulation.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: You had–you had, um, I can’t remember the exact term. Forgive me.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Junk on the bunk?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No, uh―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (laughs) That’s what I was told.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: We―well, not then! We had to maintain and keep them clean, okay? And&#13 ; so, it was a–a group thing that was done once a week, no matter what your rank&#13 ; was. You were required, you know. Wash floors, windows, whatever.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Did you also do other things besides your job in maintaining the–the&#13 ; barracks? Did you―&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh! Had a good time! (both she and Jonason chuckle)&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Well, you did more than that, I know! (Roberts laughs) Did they have&#13 ; you do—picking&#13 ; &#13 ; up around the barracks, and―&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: ―all that kind of stuff?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes. We had, um, um―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Field day?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Outside to maintain the—you know—the grass, and the bushes and&#13 ; whatever. Yes, that was also part of our requirement. We were to treat it like&#13 ; it was our home. And we would do those things if we were within our own home. So.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Had you ever gone to the Green Hat Club?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No. The Green Hat Club was after me.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Okay? I’m not sure what year. Yes, there were a lot of, uh–uh, what do&#13 ; you call them, um―&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: (inaudible)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —officers clubs. There were different clubs for different rank and of&#13 ; course I was a peon, so I―till I made sergeant, but yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: How did ch–becoming sergeant change your life?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: It gave―it made me more independent.&#13 ; &#13 ; I didn’t have to follow some of the rules and regulations.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: So, did you live―you said you lived in the barracks about a year. So,&#13 ; you lived in the–in the Staff Sergeant’s house about two?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: About two years. Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. And then what did―&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Not legally, but I did. (both she and Jonason laugh.)&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Well, nowadays, you’d get permissions or something. Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I’m not sure (smiles wide).&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (laughs) Um, is there any other part of that work that you’d like to&#13 ; share with us?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: As far as the military is concerned?&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Mm-hmm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: In a way, um, it was―I think once I left the military, I was more&#13 ; conscious of my responsibility when I was in the Marine Corps.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: The motto of a W.M., which we were called—Women Marines—was to release&#13 ; a fighting man. And of course, it was during the Vietnam War, and it was a&#13 ; &#13 ; difficult time for the United States and for everyone. So, I didn’t think about&#13 ; it a lot but once I left the military, I realized what my job was or had been,&#13 ; to help win that war.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: You–you appreciated it more?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Much more.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And so, then when you left you got married?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes, I did.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And where did you go?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: In fact, I don’t know. I don’t remember all the times, but my husband&#13 ; who was stationed here at Camp Pendleton and his career was basically here,&#13 ; okay? He was a Gunnery Sergeant and he owned a home in Oceanside. And so, when&#13 ; we—naturally when we got married, I moved into his home in Oceanside.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And how long did you stay there?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (sighs) Uh, quite a few years. We didn’t move out—I guess I was there&#13 ; &#13 ; at least five years, at least five years, and then we bought a home elsewhere in&#13 ; San Diego. He retired.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Why did you like San Diego?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: He liked San Diego.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Did you?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes, I guess so. My children were born here. It became my home. Uh,&#13 ; yes. Yes. I liked it.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Did you work outside the home once you were married?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I did, but not until my children got a little older. I actually went to&#13 ; work for the Marine Corps Exchange. (both she and Jonason laugh)&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. And how long did you do that?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, now you’re asking a question you have to think about. It was a few years.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Yeah?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I would say five or six years. Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. Well, that’s good.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: What was the Marine Corps reaction to your announcement that you&#13 ; wanted to get married?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I–I—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh, you said—Yeah!—How did you―when you decided&#13 ; &#13 ; to get married, there were regulations that you had to jump through before you&#13 ; could do that.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (chuckles) Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Both you and your husband.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Being―being a–a low rank, number one, and being a woman Marine, I had&#13 ; to ask permission from my C.O., the sergeant in charge, and—which I had to do.&#13 ; Uh, between you and me, I did it because it was considered one of my&#13 ; responsibilities. Otherwise, I thought it was a silly rule.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (chuckles) And your husband had to do the same thing, right?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Well, he did. He did. And my―for me, he did it for me. Not so much for&#13 ; himself. He’d been married before. His first wife had passed. So, um, he was a–a&#13 ; bit youn–older than I am or was. And um, so no he didn’t. But, he did,&#13 ; &#13 ; for me. Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: He asked permission for you.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Right. We went together.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh! Very interesting. And were there any other situa―parts of that that&#13 ; were required?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No, because when we married, there–there was no problem. But because of&#13 ; our age, okay, we wanted a family. And the–the motto of the Marine Corps was if&#13 ; we wanted you to have a child, we’d issued you one.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: I see.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: So, as soon as I became pregnant, I was automatically dis–discharged.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (coughs) Excuse me.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I got an honorable discharge, but, yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Huh.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: So, that’s how I left.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Interesting. And were you―after you were married, you moved into his&#13 ; house. Were you still a Marine at that poin–time?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: I’m trying to clarify that.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, until I became―&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Pregnant.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: ―pregnant. Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay. (&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: We lived there for two children.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (chuckles)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: He retired. He went to work for the Post Office and we moved into San&#13 ; Diego area.&#13 ; &#13 ; Terry Norwood: Where were your children—(barely audible) first and second—born?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Camp Pendleton, at the old hospital.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Because he was still in the military? Or―&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No. We were―because he was what is considered a lifer, someone who put&#13 ; in twenty-two years of his life. He continued to have privileges—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Ah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —military privileges.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: So, he wasn’t in the Corps still, when they were born?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And what did he do?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: My husband went to work for the U.S. Post Office.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm. He took the test and passed and–and continued to work there for&#13 ; thirty years.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Wonderful!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Mm-hmm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And I understand that you’re still living in San Diego area.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, actually I live in the same house.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (chuckles) Oh, my goodness!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Live in the same house. We bought a new home outside of Poway and I’ve&#13 ; lived there ever since. I think it was 1972, or something like that.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Wow! You must like it there.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: It’s paid for! (she chuckles and Jonason laughs) For sure!&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Are there parts of the community that you enjoy more than others?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: In–in San Diego? San Diego?—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: In Poway, San Diego County.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, you know, I had two other children born there, and, um, it—number&#13 ; one, it was very new. We were one of the first housing developments in the area.&#13 ; So, basically, I watched it grow (raises her hands to indicate something&#13 ; growing) into this huge community.&#13 ; &#13 ; And, um, I felt like it was home. And yes, I do. I like it there. I can’t think&#13 ; of any place else.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: (unintelligible, but sounds like “Chopped Liver”)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, I’m not sure. A pool, oh (shrugs)—as far as activities—(looking at&#13 ; Cortellini) is that–is that what we’re talking about? Okay—&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: What do you like about the community?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh! I did—yes, I’m talking about the beginning of living in the&#13 ; community and why I stayed there. Uh, I’m very active. Well, I won’t say active&#13 ; but I have a lot of activities within the community since I’ve lived there. So—&#13 ; I like to swim and do water aerobics, and—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: This is a community pool, I take it? Or—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes, it is. Number one, I–I got to watch the community grow. Like I&#13 ; said, we were one of the first developments in the area, housing developments,&#13 ; and so I got to watch&#13 ; &#13 ; it grow.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: There must be a story about being one of the first of the development.&#13 ; Was there—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: —an event or something?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —number one, now you want me to be silly? It was a ch—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: No. (laughs)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh, okay. (laughs also) No, it was just a very new community and it was&#13 ; fun greeting all the new people and watching different developments grow,&#13 ; watching schools being built and my children being able to go to those schools.&#13 ; I know—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Did you get to pick specific flooring and that type of thing in your&#13 ; house wh—at that time? Was that something that—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Pretty much.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: —Yeah?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Pretty much so. Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I mean, the house was built and then I did what I wanted to the inside&#13 ; of it (smiles wide) and outside, of course.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: But that wasn’t with the builder, though. That was on your own, right?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: That was on my own.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Interesting. Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (apparently she turns to Cortellini) Are there other questions that you&#13 ; would like to see asked?&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Um, it would be nice if she (rest of question is inaudible, but&#13 ; seems to be talking about entering something into a document)&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Well, we’ll have that in the–in the file. Um—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Just the fact that she left her close-knit family and friends, and&#13 ; her small town of Eastlake, Ohio to travel all the way to South Carolina to&#13 ; enlist in Marine Corps bootcamp. How brave and courageous as a young woman to&#13 ; make that monumental decision.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (turning her head from Cortellini back to Jonason, smiling) She does—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Well, I think she–she went in from the frying pan into the fire—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: The fire.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: —didn’t you! (laughs)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Amen! (laughs also)&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: But she’s a cast iron skillet.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (turning to Norwood): Pardon me?&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: But you’re a cast iron skillet.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh, is that—Oh, I–I’ve never quite thought of myself that way, but—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: (continuing to laugh) Yeah, but hey—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —I will take the compliment. (turns back to Jonason)&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: And the other thing I think you could give perspective on is how the&#13 ; military has grown since you’ve been here.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh, absolutely. Uh, as–for women? Yes, absolutely. Uh, it was—we&#13 ; &#13 ; were considered second class citizens back in 1966. Like I think I said&#13 ; previously, we were given the title of releasing a fighter–a fighting man, okay?&#13 ; And we were supposed to, uh—our jobs basically were to fill in where the men&#13 ; would have to leave and we would fill in and take their jobs. So, it was—it’s&#13 ; different today. Women join the military exactly the reason that men do. They&#13 ; want the—They want to do something for their country, number one. I can’t speak&#13 ; for all of them, but yes. I think they—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —they have the same honor and privileges that they–you–this country&#13 ; offers their military. So, yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: If you had a message for a young Marine today, what would it be?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Whoa! (Jonason laughs)&#13 ; &#13 ; Um, I really wouldn’t have a message for them. It—Number one, I believe it’s&#13 ; something that they—nowadays—let me put it this way. Nowadays, I think both men&#13 ; and women join the military because they want t–to, because it offers them&#13 ; something that they desire. Back in the day of, say, 1966, uh, men were drafted.&#13 ; Okay? And women were second class citizens. But they did it anyways, (shrugs)&#13 ; whatever their purpose—for their country ; for themselves ; for their family. So,&#13 ; times have changed.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay! Well, thank you very much.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: You’re very welcome.&#13 ; &#13 ; (the video then stops and starts, and cuts off the beginning portion of what&#13 ; Leslee Roberts is saying, but she continues speaking, turning to Cortellini now:)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —San Diego people. Or we could become Poway people living in San&#13 ; &#13 ; Diego.&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: Mm. Okay. And that, I can’t tell you how huge that is to the&#13 ; education—well, this is not necessar—this is going off on a tangent—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No, no. It had a–had a big—yes. Because—&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: It did!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: just a community—&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: It did.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Mira Mesa, down the road is San Diego.&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: So, we were given a choice, and we made it. And we made the Poway&#13 ; U—part, we helped make Poway Unified School what they are.&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: That right there tells—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Is key.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: —what this woman is about. So, to–I–just—and—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I never thought about it, but—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: (inaudible due to Jonason asking a further question)&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: So, you’re saying that there was no Poway schools when you—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Poway, yes. Poway had their own little, uh—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: No, it wasn’t.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —They didn’t even have a high—They—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: They didn’t have a—They were not a unified school district until late—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No, they weren’t. Until much later.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: But, did–did they have a school?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh yes. They had several, um, elementary schools. What was that? (turns&#13 ; from Jonason to Cortellini) They had Poway High—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: They had one—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: — and one middle school.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: —Mm-hmm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —one middle school.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: And they, and they were—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (turns to Jonason) Midland. Yeah, it was Midland. (holds up her left hand)&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: They were part of Escondido. They weren’t really in their s–unified&#13 ; school district,—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No, they weren’t considered—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: but they were—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: But they—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: It was—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: And then we had (inaudible)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: It was–Actually, it was–it was considered—it was kind of a country town.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: It was just this country little, country city. They were themselves,&#13 ; okay? And, um, they did have schools for their kids and whatnot. But that was&#13 ; very small, very limited. I can’t even begin to tell you—Even now, there’s only&#13 ; one main—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Okay. I’m st—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —road, going through Poway, and it’ll always be the main th–main road&#13 ; through Poway because everyone built to the sidewalks! There’s no way of&#13 ; widening it. (Jonason laughs) There’s no way of expanding it. (Jonason clears&#13 ; her throat) It’s all the way up to, uh, Ramona, bay–basically.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: So, now, I’m going to the Poway Museum and the R.B. Museum to see&#13 ; what historical data is there, because based on more—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Now—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: —info about the school district and how it came to be, because—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: See,&#13 ; &#13 ; now Rancho Bernardo was—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: —that is really—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Rancho Bernardo was always there. It was considered more—back in&#13 ; (lowers voice) those (back to speaking voice) days, it was, uh, for seniors.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Seniors.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: It was more of a senior place.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: It was a community planned—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: And um, yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: And, uh, they did attend, those that were–that lived in, say, Rancho&#13 ; Bernardo. They did attend the Poway school. Okay? Those were the—That was the&#13 ; only school district around. San Diego was a little far ou– far away for them.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: But–but it wasn’t even a formed Unified School District in the early 70s.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Till much later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Okay. And then, also, um, you’re–you’re being modest. You haven’t&#13 ; been asked to write your history, so I get it.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (turns to Jonason and shrugs)&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: But just sitting here, I’m thinking of how you guys fought for the&#13 ; community center,—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh, yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: —the pool that you swim in.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yeah. Oh, absolutely.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: You know? All the things—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: And what happened with the community center?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: It was a—We wanted it. They made it. Um, (sighs) how do I say it? It–it&#13 ; wa–I guess—it&#13 ; &#13 ; wasn’t—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: The city—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —exactly a community—how–how–what would you call the pool, ‘cuz I’ve&#13 ; been going there for twenty years.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Yeah. It was a community center.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: It was.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Um, and the city decided to change—all that nastiness out of my&#13 ; mouth real quick—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: You can say it. I–my ears are used to it. (Jonason chuckles)&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Then, um, this—When the city decided that to change their Charter&#13 ; and a lot of their zoning and who they were going to support or–or–in–like–They&#13 ; were no longer going to have a senior center. Okay? And they were—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: —no longer going to have a community pool. But the community rallied—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: But it was considered growing, and they wanted to grow into something&#13 ; besides Poway which we kind of fought for.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: And, yet, they didn’t want to bring in a Y.M.C.A. They wanted to be—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: —their own thing and have it be bigger. But it’s just not what the&#13 ; people wanted at the time.&#13 ; &#13 ; So, these ladies were part of the movement.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Well, back then, yeah, we kind of steadfast and we voted.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: How were you—How old were your kids at that time?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh they were—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Oh, this was only like ten years ago.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yeah. Well—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: But–but I—but I’ve only known you for maybe ten—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Sss—Yeah. Bu–bu–well, when they started building schools—This was the&#13 ; thing that–that we fought for. Number one was technically, technically I live in&#13 ; San Diego. Okay? But Poway is our school district. Poway is our hospitals. Poway&#13 ; is, you know, all the stuff that makes a city a city. We were able to stay in&#13 ; that group, and—well, Rancho Bernardo, too. But we—whereas just down the road&#13 ; about three or four miles, we have San Diego, Mira Mesa,&#13 ; &#13 ; some of the other ones.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: It’s very—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: They’re all San Diego, so they have to follow the San Diego taxes, the&#13 ; San Diego whatever, whatever.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Well, we do too.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No, no, I know. But I’m trying to think of things.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: It’s very convoluted up where we are. It took me a while to wrap my&#13 ; head around—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Everything.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: —how in the world could we be part of Poway Unified when we’re a San&#13 ; Di—city of San Diego address. It was really complex.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: We—But we kind of fought for that. In fact, I can remember Mount Carmel—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Well, I’m grateful (chuckles)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: —Mount Carmel wa—uh, all the kids in my–in our area went to Poway High,&#13 ; went to Midland Junior High, okay? S–and–and the elementary school. And my kids&#13 ; started off at Me–Meadowbrook. Meadowbrook? (looks toward Jonason)&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Whatever, for kindergarten through ninth, (Jonason coughs) or whatever&#13 ; it was, until we fought for our own schools (Jonason coughs) and our own area.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Hhm, that’s interesting.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: So, I mean, yeah. I can remember when they built&#13 ; &#13 ; the high school.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Do you?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Carmel Mountain.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: You’re a legend in my community, girl.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (laughs) I don’t know about that, but— (Jonason laughs) we&#13 ; didn’t—Poway, um, was recognized as having a very good school system, okay? Or,&#13 ; whatever. And we wanted to continue with what Poway was giving to our students.&#13 ; Where San Diego was—I mean, look at San Diego. San Diego is a huge place, and&#13 ; it’s gotten huger, so—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Is Poway considered part of North County?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes. So—&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: And, for many, many, many, many, many years, Rancho Bernardo, where I&#13 ; live—She lives in Poway, but sh–very close to R.B., um, but she’s not affected&#13 ; like we are because she’s in Poway. So, R.B. is the farthest north of San Diego.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: San Diego, yep (nodding).&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: She is right&#13 ; &#13 ; beneath us.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: On the edge, Mm-hmm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: We are North County and we are–don’t—We have to fight for the city of&#13 ; San Diego to fix our streets, to—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: To do whatever.&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: To–to do whatever we need—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Right.&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: —because we’re so far north. They forget about us. They’ll take our tax revenue—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh, they do take that!&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: —but they’ll forget about us, which is one of–just one of many reasons&#13 ; why we wanted to integrate into our own sch–school system up there.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh, no. I—&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: Because it was so small, we could be more vocal. We could give more&#13 ; input into a smaller school district versus being a part of San Diego.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Well, parents were included. You were invited to come to the–to the&#13 ; school board meetings. You were, you know what I mean? You were invited to&#13 ; participate in becoming a school board member—I mean—so, you were part of it.&#13 ; Where as far as San Diego is concerned, which is—like I said—just five miles&#13 ; down the road, um, they were totally into, uh,&#13 ; &#13 ; San Diego, (shrugs) Mira Mesa and all the ones around there now. So— (shrugs)&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Aah, we did that a bit, I guess. I don’t— (laughs) We fought for it.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Well, it sounds like you’re a very active person in your community.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Uh, (sighs, shaking her head), that was a long time ago. This old lady&#13 ; has settled in. (she and Jonason laugh) I’m not as active as I used to be.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: I just wanted to say. You know, when I first met Leslee, before I&#13 ; knew she was a Marine, over time, I started calling her “our fearless leader”&#13 ; (Roberts and Jonason laugh) at the pool, because she had this wonderful way of&#13 ; recruiting more people and she—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I had a mouth!&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: She singlehandedly—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: It’s a good thing!&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: She–but she s—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: When I don’t agree with you, you’re gonna hear about it. (all laugh)&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: She’s still humble about it. But, she singlehandedly turned a water&#13 ; aerobics, or water exercise class into a family. That’s how we became friends.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Oh.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: She roped me in, and she writes–ropes in everybody!&#13 ; &#13 ; (laughs)&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: Yes. She makes you feel wanted.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: She makes you feel like a family, and then makes everyone feels&#13 ; welcome, and now, they—you wouldn’t believe the size of our water aerobics.&#13 ; We’re up to forty-plus people (somewhat unintelligible, faint voice, and there&#13 ; is background traffic noise)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I know.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: And that’s the summer.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Well, I think we have around, about thirty permanent, you know, oldies&#13 ; but goodies.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: That’s—but that’s also—&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: (can’t distinguish what she says, due to crosstalk)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: In the summertime.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Seriously. I give you credit for that, and you really—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Oh, not totally. There were—&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: But, she’s—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Look at Doreen,&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: And see, that’s where&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: (unintelligible, due to crosstalk)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Doreen.&#13 ; &#13 ; (Norwood and Cortellini crosstalk ; unintelligible)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Yeah. It wasn’t just me.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: (first few words unintelligible) incorporated those values, a team and—&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: You feel that? Do you feel that the Marine Corps has helped you be&#13 ; organized and get people together?&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: I never thought about it, ‘cuz I was always a mouth.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Well, but—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: Why do you think they kicked me out of the Sisterhood.&#13 ; &#13 ; Jonason: Because you needed to be a Marine. (laughs)&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: No. Because I didn’t fit in. (laughs)&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: What did we go to the Mayor’s office for?&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: Oh, that was film week again. (next few words unintelligible)&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (nodding) Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: Still! Still!&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: Leslee has—I know—Leslee has been an advocate for myself,&#13 ; &#13 ; my project, my books. She—&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (to Jonason) Like I said, I’m a mouth.&#13 ; &#13 ; Cortellini: She has shared my books with everybody.&#13 ; &#13 ; Roberts: (to Jonason) And sometimes, if you’re loud enough, people just don’t&#13 ; say no to you.&#13 ; &#13 ; Norwood: I called her my agent there—she still is my agent (rest of sentence is unintelligible).&#13 ; &#13 ; https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RobertsLeslee_JonasonFaye_2022-11-29.xml RobertsLeslee_JonasonFaye_2022-11-29.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/archival_objects/22626iu Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Roberts, Leslee K. Interview November 11, 2022. Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Leslee K. Roberts, a Marine Corps veteran, who shares her experiences growing up in Ohio, deciding not to become a nun and choosing to leave Ohio by joining the U.S. Marine Corps. She discusses some military regulations, meeting and marrying her husband, and her various homes in North County. She talks about her involvement and support of the Poway community as well as Poway’s early development. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-23 Subject The topic of the resource Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Korean War, 1950-1953 Switchboard operators United States. Marine Corps Veterans -- United States Women marines Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Leslee K. Roberts Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Faye A. Jonason Maryellen Cortellini Terry Norwood Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Poway (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Leslee K. Roberts Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Community history North County Oral History Initiative Veteran experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f49e1fc474b566146db157adf2b4fa32.pdf f3996b4f578fa89be82fa7b47bb89d82 PDF Text Text CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Michael De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I’m a graduate research assistant with Kellogg Library, I'm here today with Chanel Bradley discussing her involvement in the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM (California State University San Marcos), as well as the Black Student Union. So to kick things off, Chanel, I just wanted to ask about your background. I want you to talk about the community that you grew up in and kind of describe what that was like. Chanel Bradley: I grew up in Orange County. I was raised by a single parent, so I moved a lot. And like for example, in high school, I went to two different high schools (laughs). If you don't know about Orange County, it's like predominantly a white county. And we lived in a predominantly white area, so I was normally like one of few that looked like myself. And so I kind of quickly learned what it was like to be, other, and found myself kind of like congregating with other others, (laughs). And that sort of became my community. Typically, I would spend my time with like Latino and like Black students and like even at my church, like, I went to Saddleback until I was about sixteen. I was in the choir, and my grandmother was the choir director. And Saddleback is like a megachurch in Orange County. So she was kind of like a local celebrity (laughs). So like people would know, like, about our family or about her. And so there was a lot of, of colorful acquaintances. But I would say the people that I felt kind of most comfortable with how to share like cultural experience. De Maria: I see. And going forward from there, what led you to attend CSU San Marcos and get involved with the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center)? Bradley: So I was originally gonna go to a school in Florida. And my dad, he didn't want me to leave the state (laughs), so it was more of a forced choice. And so, I applied to other colleges and universities in the state. And I think we ended up picking Cal State (San Marcos) because, of the distance, I think at the time he was living in, Rancho Santa Margarita. And so, it was very easy to kind of like go home on like weekends or something like that. But I actually ended up living in the dorms and so I didn't go home too often, but I started going to the Cross-Cultural Center (laughs), as most college students is motivation is free things (laughs). So the Cross-Cultural Center had free food. And so, my friends and I were always like trying to find the next thing that had free food. So I went to an event, I don't even remember what the event was called. And they had so many like student services, like I could print for free. You know, they had books that I could borrow for classes if I needed to. And, I think for me being multi-ethnic, like I don't really fit into a particular box. And so it was nice to go to a place where like, oh, I can like get like, you know, experiences from all walks of life. So, I think that's kind of what--why I kept coming back. And then I served on the committee. What did I do? (whispers) It's, it's, it's like what, almost 20 years (laughs) ago, so I have to kind of like think about it. But, I remember either like going to the CrossCultural Center director (laughs). I, I was a very adventurous college student, so I got into some trouble. I Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 1 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 ended up (laughs) being convicted of a misdemeanor and my last semester of my freshman year, I couldn't finish my exams because I was waiting for trial. So, I think what had happened was I ended up volunteering so that I could gain work experience after that incident that I had. And so, I believe Sara Sheikh had suggested that I assist her with the Social Justice Summit. And so I created some of the marketing material for it. And then, I believe, maybe a year or so after that, I ended up participating on the committee again. And I believe that same year, might have been the same year or maybe, you know, few years after I applied to be a peer educator for the center. So that was kind of like the beginnings of involvement (laughs) with the Cross-Cultural Center. De Maria: Got it. So, it sounds like the CCC just provided a positive space for you to inhabit and kind of rebuild some elements of your life after that incident. Which I think is super, super cool. Regarding the projects that you worked on, I'd love to hear more about the Social Justice Summit, since you were involved in the very first one (Bradley laughs). So, if you could just take me through your experience with that, and just, you know, what, what it was like, what was discussed, and just giving me an image of what all occurred. Bradley: So, I think I remember what happened. I ended up, attending the first Social Justice Summit, as a participant. And I, (laughs) yeah, that's what happened. I remember. Okay. (laughs) I feel like as I'm talking, I'm remembering the timeline. So (laughs), pardon me if I'm like having to go back into the, the files of my brain. De Maria: No, that's, that's good (both Laugh). Bradley: Yeah, so I, I was a participant. I attended the retreat with my boyfriend at the time. And--I would say I've always been like a fairly consciously aware person like, you know, growing up in a predominantly white area, and like knowing that I was not white, was something that I knew. But I think as you--or at least as I grew up, you kind of learn how to adapt in those environments. And so, things that are probably like triggering or, you know, maybe the, not the most like PC thing to say, I would kind of say to fit in or whatever I was doing at the time. So when I went to the Social Justice Summit, it was really eye-opening ’cause they were talking about, like, individual identity. They were talking about oppression and marginalization, which again, like I knew, but I didn't know that it existed, in like different intersects. And--they also talked about like allyship. So I met a lot of people there that I still talk to today. Yeah, that's, that's how I started. And then I think after that, that's when I was on the committee, the planning committee. And I did the marketing and I pretty much just kept continuing to participate with the Social Justice Summit because it was very impactful for me. I think it helped build my activism, if you will. It Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 2 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 gave me...language to talk about my experiences. It gave me like, curriculum to teach other people about how to start their journey or like continue their journey or, you know, come back from taking a rest (laughs) if you will. It exposed me to like a lot of things that were happening on campus, that were unjust. And I, because I had those experiences I felt empowered enough to not just let them happen, but to like speak about them. I developed like lifelong mentors from that summit. I think, if I'm not mistaken, I probably went to like three or four of them. The first one being a participant and the others I was on the committee. And then the, the last one, I ended up--I was a co-facilitator, so. De Maria: Got it. Very, very cool. And I previously interviewed Sara Sheikh, so she was able to also walk me through, a bit of that experience, but that's awesome hearing your perspective. And then regarding some of the projects that you did for the CCC, you've previously been described by your peers as someone who always got incredible results, but thought outside the box and didn't necessarily play by the rules to achieve those results. So I was just curious in your own words if you had an instance of a project or an objective you achieved where you didn't necessarily play by the rules. Bradley: That's funny. (laughs) I've always been like a really creative person. So--I... I like to see kind of like, what is the baseline? And I'm like, “okay, what, what more can we do from here?” So, we had an event called Cafe La Paz, and it was essentially a way to talk about, different cultural backgrounds and experiences, in an interactive way. And then I believe we served food (laughs). I think all our events we serve food, that's how you get students (laughs), make sure you get a Costco pizza and, and all the desserts and then you will have students. But yeah, so we had to work with, or we were tasked to work with the other centers, so the Women's Center (now Gender Equity Center) and the LGBT Pride Center, LGBTQIA, Pride Center (laughs). And so, I don't remember like the actual identities that we had to talk about, but it was like two or three of them, and we had to find a way to kind of put them together. And, I like to do things where people aren't just like listening to a lecture or watching a movie. I feel like it's, like it works if it's like twenty minutes or something that's short. Like when you get people to move and talk and engage with each other, I feel like that's more impactful to their learning process. So I honestly don't remember the game or what it's called. Oh, yes, I do (laughs). So, it's a game, called mafia and, it basically simulates this like inner and outer group and then, like people who reinforce the system and then, people who are trying to change the system. And so, I found a way to talk about experiences in the community or in classrooms and then incorporate this game that I played with other college students. So, I guess that's a way of being creative and thinking outside the box. I know I definitely broke some rules as far as my attendance goes. (Be)cause my, my, punctuality then was not (laughs) not very good. So I guess that would probably be some ways that I, you know, was a little bit rebellious. But I would say for the most part it was just really my creativity that drove me to, think of things that weren't being done. So like, another example is like when we, I think this might have been--when was this? This might have been like the second or third social justice event that I was on the committee with. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 3 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 And we were like, thinking of names to title it, or what have you. And I'm very simple. Like I don't--I'm not really someone that wants like a word vomit of a title, like make it impactful, how can we say this in the fewest words possible? So I like, took--then they had the RED campaign (division of The ONE Campaign to end extreme poverty and preventable disease by 2030). I don't know if you remember that. De Maria: Um-hm Bradley: It was a RED campaign for Apple or like, for HIV awareness, or something like that. And so in that campaign, they put brackets over the R and the E. So I found a way to like use the word power and then I put brackets around the word, the words W-E So it looks like, like we are the power that we, that we want to, like we have the power, we the people have the power essentially. And so I remember making it, and it was like, the most simple one that I had ever done in all of the designs that I had created. And I believe that same year the registration, like was full by like the end of the day or like the next day. So that was really cool to kind of see how something so simple can intrigue people enough to want to join something that they probably wouldn't normally going to. De Maria: Absolutely. And it's super cool to hear about your art making such a tangible impact as well. Regarding the operation of the CCC again, through my research I've heard several people kind of cite the students as sort of like the lifeblood of the organization. The people who affected change and essentially help those projects get off the ground. So I was just interested in hearing about what your relationships were like with other student staff as well as your superiors? Bradley: So my first two years, ’cause I think I was there for three years, it’s been three years, oh my gosh (laughs). My first couple of years. The person, did he, I think he, I think he was the one that referred for me to apply, or it was Sara (Sheikh). I don't exactly remember. But I have a friend who's like, essentially someone who I've been friends with since then, but his name is Gerardo Cabral or he goes by G now. But G, I met him at that event that I said where I got the free pizza for the first time. I honestly didn't know that it was his event. He tells me later that it was, and I was like, he's like, “Yeah, I remember you coming in.” And (laughs) I don't even remember what I was saying, but I was like, extra, as the word that people would use then. And so when I started working with him, him and I started to develop a closer relationship outside of work. He, I think at the time, like either my car wasn't working or like I had to walk to campus, and I was living off of campus, so he would pick me up like every day. ’cause I was, I wasn't too far from campus, Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 4 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 but it was far enough where, like you didn't want to walk, because as everybody knows, Cal State San Marcos sits on a hill. So (laughs) if you're walking from off campus, and it's already far enough, like you got (to) trek up, a mountainside to get there. And so--and this was before the (University) Student Union, because there were like ways that you can get up without using stairs that I figured out, but the easiest way is to take stairs. But yeah, so became like really close to Gerardo and, I, I, I believe because of like the experience that I had with like the incident that I had my freshman year I really connected with Sara. She like has a very therapeutic presence. And as someone who like experienced trauma young and (laughs) very, very colorful past it was comforting to have a supervisor that didn't really feel like a supervisor. Like she, you know, obviously was my supervisor, but it just felt different. I've never had a supervisor where I connected in that way. So when she left, it, it was a really big hole, like for the whole center because everyone loved her. I mean, they still love her, like I still love her. But like me and G especially were like basically mourning (laughs) her transition. And I think that experience also brought us closer. I was in his wedding, like he's came to all of my graduations, I've gone to his. So we still talk to this day. And my experience with Floyd (Lai, the next director of the Cross-Cultural Center), because I was so connected with Sara, was definitely rocky at first. I was so used to like a certain way, that things were, and then when Floyd came, he didn't necessarily disrupt everything and like change everything. We kind of kept most things, if not all. But I definitely was a little bit taken aback by having to deal with like, a, a power shift, if you will. But Floyd has always been super supportive. And at the time I was also involved in InterVarsity, InterVarsity is a Christian student group on campus. I don't know if they're still there, but I had a mentor there who was telling me, he was like, “You have to be a leader.” Like a 360 leader. Sometimes you have to lead the people that you are, that are supposed to lead you. Not to say that Floyd didn't lead me, it was just like, because he was a new person, he kind of came to me with like, “Okay, what information do you have? What knowledge do you have? Do you have background information about this event or that?” And so I kind of felt like I was in a way his little guide. And so that was new for me. I'd never been in a position where people are looking at me for answers. So I think it helped me develop my leadership skills as a result. And also be able to reconcile relationships too. So, some of the other like staff that I work with, I still touch base with every once in a while, but--like when was it? Was it the 25th anniversary? I don't remember. But there (laughs), there was a, what was it, third year? I don't remember. But I went to an event and I came back to campus after graduating and I ran into Allie Moreno, I think she has a different last name now, but Allie Moreno I also worked with. And she was there at the event, so I got to reconnect with her. Same thing with Diana (Salidvar). Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 5 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 I'm bad with names, so I apologize. Diana, I believe, is her name. I still like connect with her through social media, so I--it's, it's like, a very unique time in your life when you're like, “I'm an adult,” but also like, you're still learning. You're still learning how to be an adult, you're still learning how to function in the world. You have to take care of yourself. Like, I had to, you know, get a job and I couldn't really rely on my parents to help me out of situations (laughs) if you will. So I had to learn how to be resourceful. And I think the Cross-Cultural Center gave me the resources among other, you know services that I used on campus to survive and thrive there. De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. One comment on that, I will second Sara Sheikh's, therapeutic nature (both laugh). She's, she's definitely an incredible person. And, yeah, it definitely sounds like when you were able to kind of inhabit that role as sort of like a guide for the others in the center, it sounds like you kind of reached a point of pride and were able to kind of reflect in your accomplishments and just some of the things that you had done. Which I also think is super cool. Now that I've kind of jogged your memory a little bit from those experiences, I want to know what your favorite memory of the Cross-Cultural Center is. Bradley: (laughs) It's very simple. Like I--the, the one thing that my dad taught me was that you can change an atmosphere just by stepping into the room. And so I would be very big on atmosphere, or ambiance if you will. My friends and I call it am-Beyonce (laughs), like, because Beyonce has that, that energy and aura to her too. And so what I would do when I would be working my shift is I would play music that I enjoyed, and then I would ask students like, “What do you wanna listen to?” So I would kind of like be a DJ, like a little bit (laughs). So I enjoyed just creating a welcoming space for them to come in. And I've had students--and in a way I sort of became like a therapist come to me like stressed out about something and they are looking for advice or guidance, or just like helping individuals who are coming in trying to figure out like, “Oh, what's this place?” (laughs) You know? So I think that was probably my favorite part of working at the Cult--Cross-Cultural Center, was just creating that space for students. De Maria: Very cool. I definitely understand that impact of ambiance, so it's definitely nice that you were able to be a little selfless in a way and kind of provide that, that atmosphere like you mentioned. And shifting gears here, I know that you had a heavy involvement in the Black Student Union on campus as well. You're cited as being an individual who essentially revived that organization or had a very big hand in reviving it from inactivity. So just starting there, I want to know what that timeline looked like and how you got involved in that project as well. Bradley: Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 6 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 So I was in BSU (Black Student Union) my freshman year, and it was pretty active then. We had a good amount of members. They--I would say maybe a majority of them were like upperclassmen. And so, I think I also served on the board my second year and that's when the president Charey or Trey stepped down and then Raja stepped up. He had a lot of great ideas and he is a really good leader. I think it's just really hard when you're--like imagine having to be the next head, like performance after like Patti LaBelle (laughs). You're like “How do I top that (laughs)?” So I think it was some of that that happened with Raja, but he did a really good job at getting a lot of the structural things that organizations need. Like they need bylaws. They need to define their roles. They need recruitment efforts. They need to have like good soil to be able to grow. After Raja graduated, because he was also upper class, I think he ended up graduating before myself, maybe a couple years before me. So a lot of those upperclassmen that made up a lot of the BSU moved on. And so it was just like the underclassmen that kind of had to step up. I think there were like, if I'm not mistaken, a couple of attempts where students tried to revive it and then it just became inactive. I don't know how long the inactive period was, but I think during that time I was doing a lot of on-campus like protests. I was doing a lot of things with the Cross-Cultural Center. I was leading Bible studies. I was, also going to school, working, like I was doing a lot. And I think it was my Women's Studies professor, I think at the end of my like sophomore year and she was like, “What are you gonna do about BSU?” I'm like, “What do you mean (laughs)? Like, it's not my job (laughs).” And I think another Women's Studies professor was like, “You should try to get that organization going again.” And I was like, “Okay” (laughs). I work with a lot of student organizations when I was a peer educator. So I'm like, okay, I see how they do things. I know all the background information. I know who to talk to at, Student Life and Leadership so that I can try to expedite things if I need to. I know where to go with ASI (Associated Student Inc.) like being a student worker really exposes you to a lot of like the administrative side of a university. So I got to be able to experience that. So when I stepped into that role, I already had all those resources. And I knew a lot of students, so they knew who I was. And so when I started, I had enough members to make the organization active, which I believe is three. You need a secretary, a vice (president) and a president. We talked extensively during the summer about like, who's going to take up what role, and what are we gonna do and how are we gonna do things? And kind of, things like that. I originally, I believe was just gonna be a vice president, another student wanted to be president. And I'm like, I have no ties to any role. My only objective is to make this organization active again. And I think it was the week or two before classes started, both of them dropped out. And I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I'll figure this out because I'm resourceful. So, I just started reaching out to every student that I knew. I'm like, you remember when BSU was like, and all this stuff? And just trying to--and even new students, I was like, “You look like a leader!” I was just heavy, heavy with my Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 7 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 recruitment until I finally got two people to be in the role of vice president and treasurer. And then I was able to go to Josh at the time who was like overseeing student organizations. (laughs). I'm like, okay, “I have all the paperwork (laughs), like can we be active now?” And then it was definitely really rocky. It was, it was really rocky, because at the time I was like, I'm just trying to get us back into a place where we have presence on campus cause we're here, like Black students are here, they're just not collectively coming here. And so I also, at the same time, I'm honestly, I don't know how I did all these things, but at the same time (laughs) while I was in, in InterVarsity, they have like a Black student body as well within that, that organization. And so I was working with Black Student Unions at other campuses. I was like, let me see how you all do this because your group is so big. And then I'm like, okay, well instead of trying to motivate these students who are like, I don't want to go (laughs), I'm gonna work with these students who already have the--already energized about meeting together about, you know, centering Black narrative and who want to move that forward. So we attempted to do like events together. So, I feel like a lot of people get F.O.M.O (Fear Of Missing Out), so I'm like, if I make the event cool enough and bring enough people, they're gonna want to come. And so I did a lot of that, and I designed the logo. I fixed the bylaws and I worked a lot with other students because I was like, I think this was like my, ‘cause this was my senior year, I had to do all of this my senior year, graduate, you know, look for a job, all those things. And so I kind of searched for the next presidents. I was like, “Hey, you have the potential. Come with me to this event, I think you would benefit from it.” And I invested time in their development, like, not to pressure you, but I am leaving (laughs) so, it would be great if someone could step into these roles. And so I remember my last year and no one really what was stepping up and I was like, I just have to leave it and hope that it works out. So I went to my mentor, Roger, who at the time was the director of the LGBT Center and I was like, “Can you do me a favor?” (laughs) Can you, because he's an agitator, he, he will make sure like something gets done. So I was like, “Can you please make sure that someone steps up? Cause I'm, I'm graduating, like I can't do any more past this.” So yeah, that was, that was a lot (laughs). De Maria: Yeah. It definitely sounds like you, kind of once again used out of the box style thinking to try and ensure the future of the organization and the health of the organization, which is definitely, definitely needed (laughs) in situations like that. Regarding the relationship between those organizations and just in general on our campus, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with these different organizations devoted to identity expression? Like, what kind of role do you think it inhabits and still inhabits? Bradley: Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 8 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 So, I don't remember the name of it, but my friend G was trying to start like a council for all like, multicultural student organizations to meet--to board leaders to meet together and be able to have a space to discuss issues or concerns or what have you together like a, quasi-United Nations (laughs), if you will. So I think that was the first time I kind of saw the way that the Cross-Cultural (Center) can collaborate, and empower, and equip student organizations to not only self-express, but also to address matters that are important for them. Or how to just really have representation. Because I think that was really important. Like, for me, coming from a place where there wasn't that growing up, like I remember (laughs), I remember going to the Career Center on campus and there was this--stand and repeat, and it had a Black student on it. And then I don't remember what the language was underneath it, but it basically implied as what I had interpreted of it, was that like, Black students aren't gonna get employed, something like that. And I was like, “You have to change that.” (laughs) That's not gonna work. Like, that's not gonna bring Black students in here. You need to show them, themselves in the careers that they want, because they're out there. There are successful people of color. And so--I mean, same thing with like posters around campus. I'm like, “Who made that? There's not enough people that look diverse enough for that to be representing our campus.” So yeah I think it, it, it equips and empowers, not only like the board members on those--because like we had free printing. The Student Life and Leadership Center had a place where you could make a-frames, like you could make the materials that you need. Like you didn't have to do everything out of pocket. And especially for marginalized, you know minority groups. Sometimes money is not something that you have to just make materials for. I remember (laughs) the biggest thing for like, I feel like students tend to get behind is like, “Do I get a T-shirt (laughs)?” If you have swag for them, they're like, “Yeah, I'll definitely show up.” So I was like, we need to get T-shirts for Black Student Union. And because I was a student, because I worked, or you know, worked at the Cross-Cultural Center and I knew the resources they had available, I was like, “I know what website to make it on. I can order them. I can have them, have it done. I know where to go to get scholarships for our group.” So I think, that is what's really like, special about that relationship with, you know, centers who work with student organizations. De Maria: Yeah, totally. That's super cool. I heard on swag, that is definitely a great way to get, to get people in through the door and get your message heard, funnily enough. My next set of questions and the, the questions that we'll kind of wrap up on are a little bit more abstract. So I just wanted to ask you how your experiences with Cross-Cultural Center, as well as Black Student Union on that note, impacted your professional path and what you currently do? Bradley: So I'm, I'm sort of in a career transition space, so I wouldn't necessarily say that those experiences impacted my profession. I would say they impacted me personally and my politics. I think it opened my Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 9 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 eyes to a lot of different things, organizations, what people are doing in the community and it motivated me to serve the community in a different way. Right after college, I ended up going on a missions trip in Fresno, and seeing poverty in a different way. And I also worked with Inner City Youth in Escondido as well as here in Central San Diego. So I think it definitely shaped my passion for development. And I guess in some ways I still sort of do that in my role now. But my job I would say is, more like financially driven decisions versus passions and what sort of shaped me there. But after--I believe it, after (George) Floyd was murdered? I think it was during the pandemic like, 2020, when that whole bit happened. I mean I was going to protests before then. Like I went to the Women's March, I went to some other protests as well. I even brought some of my students (laughs). I was like, “This is what a protest is.” And so when that happened in the pandemic, it just, it's hard because it's like wrapped around tragedy, you know, these things that are so unjust that it, (laughs) I was telling my therapist that I have like an--eloquent rage. Like I want (laughs) to do things in a certain way that will affect change in the system that's already existing. Sometimes I do want to be very radical, but also I just don't want like Black people to keep dying, you know? And so I actually ended up kind of getting my boyfriend at the time into that too. I think he had always been like into it, but the way that he would protest is virtually. And I'm like, come see what it's like grassroots. Because It's a different feeling. And so we went in our cars, and we went up to like La Jolla and came back to central San Diego and then went all the way down to National City as a protest. And there was like hundreds of cars, it was all over the news. We had made posters. It was like a huge thing. And I feel like, that moment kind of reminded me of when I was at the Social Justice Summits and watching someone's lightbulb turn on almost like, oh wow, like this is what it, what it's like, l being in solidarity with other, with others and wanting the change that we need. We don't want individuals to be brutalized and murdered by individuals that we thought we could trust to keep us safe, you know? And so I get, I get chills thinking about it. I remember there was one student, he was like, “How can you just get up there and like, speak on the mic and not be afraid?” And I'm like, “I am afraid!” I'm very afraid, but I also don't want this to happen anymore. It's not okay. And so I would rather be afraid and find the courage to get through it, than be afraid and do nothing. De Maria: Absolutely. And I'm sorry, it's just super profound (laughs) super profound things that you're talking about. And also just so much value in being able to relate those experiences back together. And also, again, tangibly seeing results from, your own efforts make--be them personal or professional. So very, very cool. Just a few more questions left. What direction do you think the Cross-Cultural Center should grow in? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 10 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Bradley: I visit like maybe every, two or three years (both laughs). So I don't know what the last three years have been because I, the la--I think the last time I went to campus was like maybe (20)17 or (20)18. So it's been a while since I've been there. And it's a different, it's a different vibe than how it was when I was there. We were like a smaller center, you know, we didn't have this beautiful (University) Student Union. We had the Commons, and if anyone knows what the Commons are, there were these small little rooms, (laughs) that we just made work, you know? And they would be filled with students. And so I remember seeing the blueprints of this Student Union. And for me, I'm just like, “This is awesome!” I feel like I was, you know, part of the building blocks of this, and I'm just honestly proud of how things have evolved. I will say (laughs) the, this is maybe not necessarily like the Cross-Cultural Center, but I've heard that the parking permits there are ridiculous. Like, for passes, like I go, I, I got my master's at University of San Diego, their annual passes are under a hundred dollars. And so to have a parking pass that's $600 or something like that, I was like, that's wild. If I was there, I'd be protesting about it. This is ridiculous. Like, what are you, let me see your (laughs), let me see your expenditure sheets, let me see your multi-year budget plans, because this doesn't make sense, like it should not be that expensive. I really don't know what the student activism looks like. You know, I know that when I was there that a lot of people kind of saw the Cross-Cultural Center as like a Pan-Asian space, because that's kind of a lot of the students that would come to that space. And so when I was there, I was like, I want to see everybody (laughs). I want to go and like find where you guys are and let you know, this is here, like MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan) come over, you know, Black students come over. I'd be like, “Okay, what movie do you want to see? (laughs) I'm about to put it on the TV. You know, like make you feel comfortable. So yeah, I think that's kind of something that was needed then. I don't know what it's like now. I know when I kind of like popped in it's--there was mostly Asian students there, but you know, I think as long as students are using the space, I think that's what matters most. That's what it's there for. I think it's great that you know, peer educators can, I don't know if they're doing this now, but when I was there, I would go into classrooms and I would teach curriculum to students about identity and allyship. So I hope that they're still doing stuff like that because there are situations where I--where it impacts the world, it impacts, you know, that, that macrocosm. And in turn we, you know, sometimes professors don't know what to say and some of those students might be having a hard time being present, learning about, I don't know, whatever subject, like microorganisms, (laughs), you know what I mean? And so how can you as a professor tie in like what's going on in the world to address it, but also like be there for the students in a way that, you know, maybe is not necessarily like a savior complex, but in a way that's supportive. Like “I see you, I see that, you know, this could be something that, you may or may not be noticing in life or affected by, but there's this place where you can go,” or like bringing in those students to those classrooms. And nothing against the hard sciences. We love math, we love science. But you know, sometimes those spaces are very black and white and the Cross-Cultural Center lives in a gray space. And so to be able to show students that and help them with identity development, because like I Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 11 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 said, college is such a unique time. You’re a quasi-adult, but not really. And you have to take on all these responsibilities in addition to graduating. So. De Maria: Yeah. Absolutely. My next question, and again this is going to kind of reference the current landscape of CSUSM. So don't worry if you can't think of like a super accurate answer or anything. You can also comment about the time, like around the time that you graduated and moved on. But what communities do you feel are underrepresented on campus? Bradley: Hmm... I don't really know. I know like when I was a student... so, I know I, I definitely got involved with like undocumented students ’cause that experience was something that I personally didn't have like experience in. But I had a friend, several friends, who were undocumented. And I remember going to Social Justice Summit and having that lightbulb. And we were talking about undocumented students and I was like, “Oh my God.” Like I drove one of my friends who I know is undocumented and I didn't have like (laughs), this is again, me living rebelliously. I was driving, and my license plate was expired or something like that? And I was like, “Oh my gosh.” If I had gotten pulled over and this police officer wasn't chill, I could have endangered my friend. And so, I think it grew my like empathy for that community. I remember their group was like, sort of active, sort of not, at the time when I was a student. I think MEChA-DeMaria: Um-hmm. Bradley: Is such a big organization like nationally that sometimes the undocumented experience kind of becomes adjacent to that. So one of the friends that I was referring to, I believe she served in a leadership role for, I don't remember what the name of that undocumented student organization was, but I remember her talking about that and kind of trying to differentiate that group as a result. I also have another friend that I still talk to today. She created an organization called Et Cetera. And her whole goal was to be a catchall for the others. Like you're not really feeling like a certain cultural identity. Like maybe you don't want to be in the math group, like maybe you don't want to be in a fraternity, like come to Et Cetera (laughs). And so I thought that that was really cool that she wanted to create a space for individuals who either like myself live in like a duality, or others who just maybe don't identify in a particular space. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 12 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 De Maria: Totally. I have two questions left to just wrap things up. So first one, what is the most important lesson you've taken from your experience with the Cross-Cultural Center? Bradley: There were so many lessons (both laughs). Definitely difficult to pick one. I think I, I, I learned my power. And at that time I learned a, that I had power and leadership potential, but also that how to use it, in a way that would affect change. Like I remember when--I hope that this tabloid paper doesn't exist on that campus anymore. Because If it does, I'm driving (laughs) to make sure it's not there. But--they, it was called The Koala. The Koala also existed on I think UCSD (University of California San Diego), but basically it was a tabloid paper, and they would just write, just excuse my language, but like, bullshit about people, about groups, about minority groups. And they're like, “Oh, but it's satire.” And I'm like, “This still doesn't make it okay.” I was such an agitator to them that they put me in one of their editions. And so I remember noticing that this was not okay, you know, me stepping into my power and then I protested by myself. I was like, I'm gonna stand next to you. I'm not gonna say anything, but I'm gonna hold this sign up, and I'm gonna stand next to you, so that other people understand that this is not okay and that you shouldn't be passing this out on campus. And like my friends were like coming up to me and they're like, “Oh my gosh, like you are so awesome for doing this." And I connected with other campuses and I'm like, “What are you guys doing about this (laughs) paper?” Because you know, such and such. And then I remember other people kind of in solidarity doing other things to expose the students and who are doing these salacious things, like who the editor was (laughs). They wrote it on the steps, like the steps that are next to the clock. They wrote the names of all the members in the organization. This person is in it and this person is in it and they want to hide, but (laughs), they're not gonna hide. We're gonna bring them to light. They actually bit their--put their own shoe in their mouth. But I think the editor attempted to run for ASI president. De Maria: Right? Bradley: And if he had accomplished his goal, that paper would've been basically passed out, like how the Cougar News (student newspaper) gets passed out. But he ended up (laughs) fraud, like basically doing identity theft and faking votes so that he could win. So I was like, “Well, not only did you lose, but you also are gonna have to be prosecuted for like 500 counts of identity theft.” And that's a federal offense (laughs). So I think it was a mixture of, you know, stepping into my power, but also knowing that I have, like I have a cap, I have a battery, at some point my battery is gonna go down and I need to recharge. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 13 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 So I think that was another lesson that I learned, was like how to recharge, how to self-preserve. Because I know there were times that I was doing a lot of things. And even just thinking about it, I was like, “That sounds like a lot like (laughs). When did you have you time?” I remember there was a point where I had stopped making such a fuss about that paper, and there was a student who was doing a class project where they were interviewing people about that paper. And I was like, I wrote in the comments, I was like, “Don't stop agitating, keep going.” So even in my time of preservation, I was still encouraging others to develop their power and what they found to be important for them. De Maria: Yeah. So comments on that. That's a really crazy intense story. And also just on a personal level, I'm glad that you were there to be the initial agitator essentially. And you know, just, affect that change, like how you said. So that's definitely a demonstration of power (laughs) used responsibly and for a good end. Bradley: Yeah. De Maria: Which is very, very cool. For my final question, I want to relate back to something you said at the very beginning of the interview. You described feeling like an other in your community growing up in Orange County. So, I just would like to know, as someone who has also felt like an other growing up in a community, if someone feels that way, what tips or advice would you give them to start agitating or get involved in social justice? Bradley: I mean--I feel like my experiences as an other sort of like, I describe it like a butterfly, because I am like-ambiguous (laughs) physically and mentally. I just kind of butterfly my way through groups and I learn from all those experiences. So being an other doesn't necessarily have to define you into the other box. It can give you capacity to be in every box. I remember my sister for those demographic questions where they're like, “What race are you?” And she was like, “I just check all of them!” (laughs) So in a way you just check all of them. You can go into this group, you can go into that group and people would welcome me, like regardless. So that was like really nice, to experience. But also I think-- I don't know if every school campus has like a Social Justice Summit type of thing, but I honestly think that something like that definitely informs the way that you develop in your social justice identity or your social justice, activism. But honestly, you could, just join a march, like when they had the Women's March or I think there was another march for all of the like school shootings that were happening that were student led. Just being a part of grassroots organizations can shape that activist part in individuals Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 14 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 as well as shaping identity, you know. But I think what I noticed in school (laughs) is when you learn about other cultures, especially in American history, it's terrible. They don't really put you into this really wonderful light. It's like genocide, slavery, and then President Obama (laughs). And you're like, okay--but where's all the in between? And so, you know, even just having literature, I would hope you know that the Kellogg Library has a lot of options, but I had friends who gave me literature that helped me to develop that part of myself and to see--people who looked like me that were successful, but also people who were affecting change. Who were women, who were, you know, minority groups, who were young. I think for me, growing up in a single parent household, you want to, or at least for me, I wanted to see a strong woman and like my grandma, she's definitely a part of my strong personality, but also it's like different when it's not your mom. And so for me, I was like looking for that maternal figure and so I found it a lot in supervisors, or professors, and I was like, that's the kind of woman that I want to be, who doesn't just sit and let things happen but will be willing to stand up for what I believe in. De Maria: I think that's excellent advice. And again, just, a manifestation of taking pride in your identity rather than allowing that box or that label to define you or your actions, even if those actions are advantageous to social justice. So I completely get that. Bradley: Yeah De Maria: And with that, I know that we're at time. So I just wanted to thank you for taking the time out for this interview, Chanel. We definitely covered a lot, in terms of your personal experience, and I also learned a lot more about the CCC as I continue to interview more people for this project and kind of embark on this journey myself. So overall, just wanted to thank you for opening up and allowing others to be part of that experience and kind of understand what you went through and what you did. Bradley: Yeah, definitely. Well, if you want any contacts for other people--who to interview or if you have enough, that's cool too. (Both laugh) If you want some of the OGs, (De Maria laughs) I still talk to them. De Maria: Absolutely. We'll talk offline, but (both laugh) Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 15 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Bradley: Yeah. De Maria: Thank you so much Chanel Bradley: You’re welcome, okay. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 16 2023-10-06 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bradley, Chanel. Interview transcript. April 14, 2023. Description An account of the resource Chanel Bradley is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Women's and Gender Studies in 2012. Chanel worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2012 and was involved in various social identity related causes on campus. In this interview, Chanel discusses her experience as a peer educator at the Cross-Cultural Center and her recollections of the center during her time at CSUSM. Bradley was also involved in the Women's Center [now Gender Equity Center]. In her interview, Bradley also recalls how she revived the campus Black Student Union, protested the unauthorized student newspaper, The Koala, and came into her power. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chanel Bradley Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael De Maria Geneva Martinot Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-12 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Civil rights Civil rights demonstrations -- California -- San Marcos Education, Higher Human rights Minorities in higher education Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Chanel Bradley Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14_transcript Activists and activism Black experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Michael De Maria Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Chanel Bradley OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. RED Campaign;Social Justice Summits;Cross-Cultural Center peer mentorship OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Bradley, Chanel. Interview April 14th, 2023. SC027-35 01:12:01 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection Campus oral histories CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Civil rights Civil rights demonstrations -- California -- San Marcos RED Campaign ; Social Justice Summits ; Cross-Cultural Center peer mentorship Chanel Bradley Michael De Maria BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14.mp4 1:|11(3)|19(12)|31(6)|39(13)|49(3)|56(13)|63(2)|75(13)|88(9)|99(1)|108(5)|116(13)|129(12)|136(17)|147(10)|157(2)|167(15)|181(5)|193(7)|204(14)|217(11)|228(3)|240(7)|252(2)|262(13)|273(11)|285(3)|297(5)|308(7)|322(2)|329(14)|341(2)|352(11)|364(12)|375(10)|386(17)|397(8)|409(4)|420(6)|432(3)|440(10)|450(10)|460(5)|473(8)|485(5)|493(12)|502(3)|511(12)|521(2)|531(8)|540(5)|550(6)|563(3)|576(15)|588(2)|600(5)|611(2)|619(6)|633(2)|644(11)|654(14)|665(9)|679(11)|693(19)|704(9)|720(3)|730(8)|741(12)|750(11)|760(9)|771(11)|798(3)|800(1) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d4ea6df2420ccf154c84a6af1258992a.mp4 Other video 0 Interview Introduction Michael De Maria interviews Chanel Bradley in regards to her background and experience at California State University San Marcos. 0 24 Childhood Bradley discusses growing up in a predominately white community in Orange County and how she formed community there. 0 152 Choosing to attend CSUSM and get involved in Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) Bradley's parents wanted her close to home so she chose to attend CSUSM and live in the dorms. She originally attended the CCC due to all of its free resources but soon enjoyed the diverse community it created. Bradley soon began volunteering due to obtaining a misdemeanor but eventually applied as a peer educator at the center a few years later. Sara Sheikh ; Social Justice Summit ; multi-ethnic 0 458 First Social Justice Summit Experience/ Finding Her Voice Bradley discusses how as growing up she would often suppress her identity as a person of color to fit in. By attending the Social Justice Summit it gave her ways to express herself and to feel empowered within her identity. empowered ; Social Justice Summit 0 736 Using Her Creativity to Drive the CCC Bradley discusses how her creative nature was able to be put into practice at the CCC. She used games and slogans to help educate and encourage students to find their power. power ; impactful ; peer mentorship 0 1124 Staff Relationship/ Developing leadership skills Bradley explains how supervisors and staff at the CCC had a close connection due to cultural similarities and beliefs. She explains how when there was a change in management at the CCC, Bradley became the one that guided the new supervisor. This helped her to gain leadership skills and relationship skills as well. leadership ; leader ; relationships ; mentor ; Floyd Lai 0 1640 Creating a Welcoming Space Bradley explains how her favorite memory was being able to create an ambiance that made students feel represented and safe. welcoming ; ambiance ; atmosphere ; guidance 0 1760 Reviving Black Student Union Bradley discusses how she revived the Black Student Union after its inactivity. She explains how her experience with the CCC provided her with resources and knowledge to begin an organization. She fixed the bylaws, encouraged protests, and recruited members for the board. protests ; BSU ; organization ; Black Student Union 0 2364 The role of the Cross-Cultural Center Bradley explains how the Cross-Cultural Center aids various organizations on campus by equipping, empowering, and helping with self expression and representation. empower ; equip ; educate ; represent 0 2674 Impact of the Cross-Cultural Center/ Finding the Courage Bradley explains how the Cross-Cultural Center opened her eyes up and helped her mature politically and socially. It gave her the passion to speak up and educate others about social issues that are often suppressed. politics ; serve 0 3045 Current Direction of the Cross-Cultural Center Bradley explains how the growth of our campus should also be focused and centered on the students needs. either being socially, politically or financially focused. She talks about how professors should remain personable and bring current situations into the curriculum. activism ; identity ; allyship ; protesting 0 3387 Underrepresented Communities on Campus Bradley discusses how the undocumented experience becomes adjacent to the Chicano student movement. She recalls the Et Cetera club, a student organization that created space for those who may not identify with other organizations at that time. undocumented ; under represented ; duality ; Et Cetera club 0 3616 Lessons Learned From Cross-Cultural Center Bradley was taught that not only she had power and leadership potential but how to use it as well. She exercised her power by speaking up against a paper writing false claims towards minority groups. She also discusses how she learned to recharge as an affective leader. power ; protest ; minority ; self preserve 0 3965 How to Practice Your Voice Bradley explains how one should educate themselves, and get involved in social groups that represent them as a minority. To stand up for what one believes in and to not let a box or label define you. 0 Chanel Bradley is a California State University San Marcos alumni. She graduated with her degree in Women's and Gender Studies in 2012. Chanel worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2012 and was involved in various social identity related centers on campus. In this interview, Chanel discusses her experience as a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center and her recollections of the center during her time at CSUSM. Bradley was also involved in the Women's Center [now Gender Equity Center]. In her interview, Bradley also recalls how she revived the campus Black Student Union, protested the campus (unauthorized) student newspaper, The Koala, and came into her power. Michael De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I’m a graduate research assistant&#13 ; with Kellogg Library, I'm here today with Chanel Bradley discussing her&#13 ; involvement in the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM (California State University&#13 ; San Marcos), as well as the Black Student Union. So to kick things off, Chanel,&#13 ; I just wanted to ask about your background. I want you to talk about the&#13 ; community that you grew up in and kind of describe what that was like.&#13 ; &#13 ; Chanel Bradley: I grew up in Orange County. I was raised by a single parent, so&#13 ; I moved a lot. And like for example, in high school, I went to two different&#13 ; high schools (laughs). If you don't know about Orange County, it's like&#13 ; predominantly a white&#13 ; &#13 ; county. And we lived in a predominantly white area, so I was normally like one&#13 ; of few that looked like myself. And so I kind of quickly learned what it was&#13 ; like to be, other, and found myself kind of like congregating with other others,&#13 ; (laughs). And that sort of became my community. Typically, I would spend my time&#13 ; with like Latino and like Black students and like even at my church, like, I&#13 ; went to Saddleback until I was about sixteen. I was in the choir, and my&#13 ; grandmother was the choir director. And Saddleback is like a megachurch in&#13 ; &#13 ; Orange County. So she was kind of like a local celebrity (laughs). So like&#13 ; people would know, like, about our family or about her. And so there was a lot&#13 ; of, of colorful acquaintances. But I would say the people that I felt kind of&#13 ; most comfortable with how to share like cultural experience.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: I see. And going forward from there, what led you to attend CSU San&#13 ; Marcos and get involved with the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center)?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So I was originally gonna go to a school in Florida. And my dad, he&#13 ; didn't want me to leave the state (laughs), so it was more of a forced choice.&#13 ; And so, I applied to other&#13 ; &#13 ; colleges and universities in the state. And I think we ended up picking Cal&#13 ; State (San Marcos) because, of the distance, I think at the time he was living&#13 ; in, Rancho Santa Margarita. And so, it was very easy to kind of like go home on&#13 ; like weekends or something like that. But I actually ended up living in the&#13 ; dorms and so I didn't go home too often, but I started going to the&#13 ; Cross-Cultural Center (laughs), as most college students' motivation is free&#13 ; things (laughs). So the Cross-Cultural Center had free food. And so, my friends&#13 ; &#13 ; and I were always like trying to find the next thing that had free food. So I&#13 ; went to an event, I don't even remember what the event was called. And they had&#13 ; so many like student services, like I could print for free. You know, they had&#13 ; books that I could borrow for classes if I needed to. And, I think for me being&#13 ; multi-ethnic, like I don't really fit into a particular box. And so it was nice&#13 ; to go to a place where like, oh, I can like get like, you know, experiences from&#13 ; all walks of life. So, I think that's kind of what--why I kept coming back.&#13 ; &#13 ; And then I&#13 ; &#13 ; served on the committee. What did I do? (whispers) It's, it's, it's like what,&#13 ; almost 20 years (laughs) ago, so I have to kind of like think about it. But, I&#13 ; remember either like going to the Cross-Cultural Center director (laughs). I, I&#13 ; was a very adventurous college student, so I got into some trouble. I ended up&#13 ; (laughs) being convicted of a misdemeanor and my last semester of my freshman&#13 ; year, I couldn't finish my exams because I was waiting for trial. So,&#13 ; &#13 ; I think what had happened was I ended up volunteering so that I could gain work&#13 ; experience after that incident that I had. And so, I believe Sara Sheikh had&#13 ; suggested that I assist her with the Social Justice Summit. And so I created&#13 ; some of the marketing material for it. And then, I believe, maybe a year or so&#13 ; after that, I ended up participating on the committee again. And I believe that&#13 ; same year,&#13 ; &#13 ; might have been the same year or maybe, you know, few years after I applied to&#13 ; be a peer educator for the center. So that was kind of like the beginnings of&#13 ; involvement (laughs) with the Cross-Cultural Center.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Got it. So, it sounds like the CCC just provided a positive space for&#13 ; you to inhabit and kind of rebuild some elements of your life after that&#13 ; incident. Which I think is super, super cool. Regarding the projects that you&#13 ; worked on, I'd love to hear more about the Social Justice Summit, since you were&#13 ; involved in the very first one (Bradley laughs). So, if you could just take me&#13 ; through your experience with that, and just, you know, what, what it was like,&#13 ; what was discussed, and just giving me an image of what all occurred.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So, I think I remember what happened. I ended up, attending the first&#13 ; Social Justice Summit, as a participant. And I, (laughs) yeah, that's what&#13 ; happened. I remember. Okay. (laughs) I feel like as I'm talking, I'm remembering&#13 ; the timeline. So (laughs), pardon me if I'm like having to go back into the, the&#13 ; files of my brain.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: No, that's, that's good (both Laugh).&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Yeah, so I, I was a participant. I attended the retreat with my&#13 ; boyfriend at the time. And--I would say I've always been like a fairly&#13 ; consciously aware person like, you know, growing up in a predominantly white&#13 ; area, and like knowing that I was not white,&#13 ; &#13 ; was something that I knew. But I think as you--or at least as I grew up, you&#13 ; kind of learn how to adapt in those environments. And so, things that are&#13 ; probably like triggering or, you know, maybe the, not the most like PC thing to&#13 ; say, I would kind of say to fit in or whatever I was doing at the time. So when&#13 ; I went to the Social Justice Summit, it was really eye-opening ’cause they were&#13 ; talking about, like, individual identity. They were talking about oppression and&#13 ; marginalization, which again, like I knew, but I didn't know that it existed, in&#13 ; like different intersects.&#13 ; &#13 ; And--they&#13 ; &#13 ; also talked about like allyship. So I met a lot of people there that I still&#13 ; talk to today. Yeah, that's, that's how I started. And then I think after that,&#13 ; that's when I was on the committee, the planning committee. And I did the&#13 ; marketing and I pretty much just kept continuing to participate with the Social&#13 ; Justice Summit because it was very impactful for me. I think it helped build my&#13 ; activism, if you will. It gave me...language to talk about my experiences. It&#13 ; gave me like, curriculum to teach other people about how to start their journey&#13 ; or like continue their journey&#13 ; &#13 ; or, you know, come back from taking a rest (laughs) if you will. It exposed me&#13 ; to like a lot of things that were happening on campus, that were unjust. And I,&#13 ; because I had those experiences I felt empowered enough to not just let them&#13 ; happen, but to like speak about them. I developed like lifelong mentors from&#13 ; that summit. I think, if I'm not mistaken, I probably went to like three or four&#13 ; of them. The first one being a participant and the others I was on the&#13 ; committee. And then the, the last one, I ended up--I was a co-facilitator,&#13 ; &#13 ; so.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Got it. Very, very cool. And I previously interviewed Sara Sheikh, so&#13 ; she was able to also walk me through, a bit of that experience, but that's&#13 ; awesome hearing your perspective. And then regarding some of the projects that&#13 ; you did for the CCC, you've previously been described by your peers as someone&#13 ; who always got incredible results, but thought outside the box and didn't&#13 ; necessarily play by the rules to achieve those results. So I was just curious in&#13 ; your own words if you had an instance of a project or an objective you achieved&#13 ; where you didn't necessarily play by the rules.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: That's funny. (laughs) I've always been like a really creative person.&#13 ; &#13 ; So--I... I like to see kind of like, what is the baseline? And I'm like, “okay,&#13 ; what, what more can we do from here?” So, we had an event called Cafe La Paz,&#13 ; and it was essentially a way to talk about, different cultural backgrounds and&#13 ; experiences, in an interactive way. And then I believe we served food (laughs).&#13 ; I think all our events we serve food, that's how you get students (laughs), make&#13 ; sure you get a Costco pizza and, and all the desserts and then you will have students.&#13 ; &#13 ; But yeah, so we had to work with, or we were tasked to work with the other&#13 ; centers, so the Women's Center (now Gender Equity Center) and the LGBT Pride&#13 ; Center, LGBTQIA, Pride Center (laughs).&#13 ; &#13 ; And so, I don't remember like the actual identities that we had to talk about,&#13 ; but it was like two or three of them, and we had to find a way to kind of put&#13 ; them together. And, I like to do things where people aren't just like listening&#13 ; to a lecture or watching a movie. I feel like it's, like it works if it's like&#13 ; twenty minutes or something that's short. Like when you get people to move and&#13 ; talk and engage with each other, I feel like that's&#13 ; &#13 ; more impactful to their learning process. So I honestly don't remember the game&#13 ; or what it's called. Oh, yes, I do (laughs). So, it's a game, called mafia and,&#13 ; it basically simulates this like inner and outer group and then, like people who&#13 ; reinforce the system and then, people who are trying to change the system.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so, I found a way to talk about experiences in the community or in&#13 ; classrooms and then incorporate this game that I played with other college&#13 ; students. So, I guess that's a way of being creative and thinking outside the&#13 ; box. I&#13 ; &#13 ; know I definitely broke some rules as far as my attendance goes. (Be)cause my,&#13 ; my, punctuality then was not (laughs) not very good. So I guess that would&#13 ; probably be some ways that I, you know, was a little bit rebellious. But I would&#13 ; say for the most part it was just really my creativity that drove me to, think&#13 ; of things that weren't being done. So like, another example is like when we, I&#13 ; think this might have been--when was this? This might have been like the second&#13 ; or third social justice event that I was on the committee with.&#13 ; &#13 ; And we were like, thinking of names to title it, or what have you. And&#13 ; &#13 ; I'm very simple. Like I don't--I'm not really someone that wants like a word&#13 ; vomit of a title, like make it impactful, how can we say this in the fewest&#13 ; words possible? So I like, took--then they had the RED campaign (division of The&#13 ; ONE Campaign to end extreme poverty and preventable disease by 2030). I don't&#13 ; know if you remember that.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Um-hm&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley:It was a RED campaign for Apple or like, for HIV awareness, or something&#13 ; like that. And so in that campaign, they put brackets over the R and the E. So I&#13 ; found a way to like use the word power and then I put brackets around the word,&#13 ; the words W-E So it looks like, like we are the power that we, that we want to,&#13 ; like we have the power,&#13 ; &#13 ; we the people have the power essentially. And so I remember making it, and it&#13 ; was like, the most simple one that I had ever done in all of the designs that I&#13 ; had created. And I believe that same year the registration, like was full by&#13 ; like the end of the day or like the next day. So that was really cool to kind of&#13 ; see how something so simple can intrigue people enough to want to join something&#13 ; that they probably wouldn't normally going to.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Absolutely. And it's super cool to hear about your art making such a&#13 ; tangible impact as well. Regarding the operation of the CCC again, through my&#13 ; research I've heard several people kind of cite the students as sort of like the&#13 ; lifeblood of the organization. The people who&#13 ; &#13 ; affected change and essentially help those projects get off the ground. So I was&#13 ; just interested in hearing about what your relationships were like with other&#13 ; student staff as well as your superiors?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So my first two years, ’cause I think I was there for three years, it’s&#13 ; been three years, oh my gosh (laughs). My first couple of years. The person, did&#13 ; he, I think he, I think he was the one that referred for me to apply, or it was&#13 ; Sara (Sheikh). I don't exactly remember. But I have a friend who's like,&#13 ; essentially someone who I've been friends with since then, but his name is&#13 ; Gerardo Cabral or he goes by G now. But G, I met him at&#13 ; &#13 ; that event that I said where I got the free pizza for the first time. I honestly&#13 ; didn't know that it was his event. He tells me later that it was, and I was&#13 ; like, he's like, “Yeah, I remember you coming in.” And (laughs) I don't even&#13 ; remember what I was saying, but I was like, extra, as the word that people would&#13 ; use then.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so when I started working with him, him and I started to develop a closer&#13 ; relationship outside of work. He, I think at the time, like either my car wasn't&#13 ; working or like I had to walk to campus, and I was living off of campus, so he&#13 ; would pick me up like every day. ’cause I was, I wasn't too far from campus, but&#13 ; it was far enough where, like you didn't want to walk, because as everybody&#13 ; knows, Cal State San Marcos sits on a hill. So (laughs)&#13 ; &#13 ; if you're walking from off campus, and it's already far enough, like you got&#13 ; (to) trek up, a mountainside to get there. And so--and this was before the&#13 ; (University) Student Union, because there were like ways that you can get up&#13 ; without using stairs that I figured out, but the easiest way is to take stairs.&#13 ; &#13 ; But yeah, so became like really close to Gerardo and, I, I, I believe because of&#13 ; like the experience that I had with like the incident that I had my freshman&#13 ; year I really connected with Sara. She like has a very therapeutic presence. And&#13 ; as someone who like experienced trauma young and (laughs) very, very colorful&#13 ; past it was&#13 ; &#13 ; comforting to have a supervisor that didn't really feel like a supervisor. Like&#13 ; she, you know, obviously was my supervisor, but it just felt different. I've&#13 ; never had a supervisor where I connected in that way. So when she left, it, it&#13 ; was a really big hole, like for the whole center because everyone loved her. I&#13 ; mean, they still love her, like I still love her. But like me and G especially&#13 ; were like basically mourning (laughs) her transition.&#13 ; &#13 ; And I think that experience also brought us closer. I was in his wedding, like&#13 ; he's came to all of my graduations, I've gone to his. So we still talk to this&#13 ; day. And my experience with Floyd (Lai, the next director of the Cross-Cultural&#13 ; Center), because I was so connected with&#13 ; &#13 ; Sara, was definitely rocky at first. I was so used to like a certain way, that&#13 ; things were, and then when Floyd came, he didn't necessarily disrupt everything&#13 ; and like change everything. We kind of kept most things, if not all. But I&#13 ; definitely was a little bit taken aback by having to deal with like, a, a power&#13 ; shift, if you will. But Floyd has always been super supportive. And at the time&#13 ; I was also involved in InterVarsity, InterVarsity is a Christian student group&#13 ; on campus.&#13 ; &#13 ; I don't know if they're still there, but I had a mentor there who was telling&#13 ; me, he was like, “You have to be a leader.” Like a 360 leader. Sometimes you&#13 ; have to&#13 ; &#13 ; lead the people that you are, that are supposed to lead you. Not to say that&#13 ; Floyd didn't lead me, it was just like, because he was a new person, he kind of&#13 ; came to me with like, “Okay, what information do you have? What knowledge do you&#13 ; have? Do you have background information about this event or that?” And so I&#13 ; kind of felt like I was in a way his little guide. And so that was new for me.&#13 ; I'd never been in a position where people are looking at me for answers. So I&#13 ; think it helped me develop my leadership skills as a result.&#13 ; &#13 ; And also be able to reconcile relationships too. So, some of the other&#13 ; &#13 ; like staff that I work with, I still touch base with every once in a while,&#13 ; but--like when was it? Was it the 25th anniversary? I don't remember. But there&#13 ; (laughs), there was a, what was it, third year? I don't remember. But I went to&#13 ; an event and I came back to campus after graduating and I ran into Allie Moreno,&#13 ; I think she has a different last name now, but Allie Moreno I also worked with.&#13 ; And she was there at the event, so I got to reconnect with her. Same thing with&#13 ; Diana (Salidvar).&#13 ; &#13 ; I'm bad with names, so I apologize. Diana, I believe, is her name. I still like&#13 ; connect with her through social media, so I--it's, it's like, a&#13 ; &#13 ; very unique time in your life when you're like, “I'm an adult,” but also like,&#13 ; you're still learning. You're still learning how to be an adult, you're still&#13 ; learning how to function in the world. You have to take care of yourself. Like,&#13 ; I had to, you know, get a job and I couldn't really rely on my parents to help&#13 ; me out of situations (laughs) if you will. So I had to learn how to be&#13 ; resourceful. And I think the Cross-Cultural Center gave me the resources among&#13 ; other, you know services that I used on campus to survive and thrive there.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. One comment on that, I will second Sara Sheikh's,&#13 ; therapeutic nature (both laugh). She's, she's definitely an incredible person.&#13 ; And, yeah, it&#13 ; &#13 ; definitely sounds like when you were able to kind of inhabit that role as sort&#13 ; of like a guide for the others in the center, it sounds like you kind of reached&#13 ; a point of pride and were able to kind of reflect in your accomplishments and&#13 ; just some of the things that you had done. Which I also think is super cool. Now&#13 ; that I've kind of jogged your memory a little bit from those experiences, I want&#13 ; to know what your favorite memory of the Cross-Cultural Center is.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: (laughs) It's very simple. Like I--the, the one thing that my dad&#13 ; taught me was that you can change an atmosphere just by stepping into the room.&#13 ; And so I would be very big on atmosphere, or ambiance if you will. My friends&#13 ; and I call it am-Beyonce&#13 ; &#13 ; (laughs), like, because Beyonce has that, that energy and aura to her too. And&#13 ; so what I would do when I would be working my shift is I would play music that I&#13 ; enjoyed, and then I would ask students like, “What do you wanna listen to?” So I&#13 ; would kind of like be a DJ, like a little bit (laughs). So I enjoyed just&#13 ; creating a welcoming space for them to come in. And I've had students--and in a&#13 ; way I sort of became like a therapist come to me like stressed out about&#13 ; something and they are looking for advice or guidance, or just like helping&#13 ; individuals who are coming in trying to figure out like, “Oh, what's this&#13 ; place?” (laughs) You know? So I think that was probably my favorite part of&#13 ; working at the Cult--Cross-Cultural Center, was just&#13 ; &#13 ; creating that space for students.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Very cool. I definitely understand that impact of ambiance, so it's&#13 ; definitely nice that you were able to be a little selfless in a way and kind of&#13 ; provide that, that atmosphere like you mentioned. And shifting gears here, I&#13 ; know that you had a heavy involvement in the Black Student Union on campus as&#13 ; well. You're cited as being an individual who essentially revived that&#13 ; organization or had a very big hand in reviving it from inactivity. So just&#13 ; starting there, I want to know what that timeline looked like and how you got&#13 ; involved in that project as well.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So I was in BSU (Black Student Union) my freshman year, and it was&#13 ; pretty active&#13 ; &#13 ; then. We had a good amount of members. They--I would say maybe a majority of&#13 ; them were like upperclassmen. And so, I think I also served on the board my&#13 ; second year and that's when the president Charey or Trey stepped down and then&#13 ; Raja stepped up. He had a lot of great ideas and he is a really good leader. I&#13 ; think it's just really hard when you're--like imagine having to be the next&#13 ; head, like performance after like Patti LaBelle (laughs). You're like “How do I top&#13 ; &#13 ; that (laughs)?” So I think it was some of that that happened with Raja, but he&#13 ; did a really good job at getting a lot of the structural things that&#13 ; organizations need.&#13 ; &#13 ; Like they need bylaws. They need to define their roles. They need recruitment&#13 ; efforts. They need to have like good soil to be able to grow. After Raja&#13 ; graduated, because he was also upper class, I think he ended up graduating&#13 ; before myself, maybe a couple years before me. So a lot of those upperclassmen&#13 ; that made up a lot of the BSU moved on. And so it was just like the&#13 ; underclassmen that kind of had to step up. I think there were like, if I'm not&#13 ; mistaken, a&#13 ; &#13 ; couple of attempts where students tried to revive it and then it just became&#13 ; inactive. I don't know how long the inactive period was, but I think during that&#13 ; time I was doing a lot of on-campus like protests. I was doing a lot of things&#13 ; with the Cross-Cultural Center.&#13 ; &#13 ; I was leading Bible studies. I was, also going to school, working, like I was&#13 ; doing a lot. And I think it was my Women's Studies professor, I think at the end&#13 ; of my like sophomore year and she was like, “What are you gonna do about BSU?”&#13 ; I'm like, “What do you mean (laughs)? Like, it's not my job (laughs).” And I&#13 ; think another Women's Studies professor was like, “You should try to&#13 ; &#13 ; get that organization going again.” And I was like, “Okay” (laughs). I work with&#13 ; a lot of student organizations when I was a peer educator. So I'm like, okay, I&#13 ; see how they do things. I know all the background information. I know who to&#13 ; talk to at, Student Life and Leadership so that I can try to expedite things if&#13 ; I need to.&#13 ; &#13 ; I know where to go with ASI (Associated Student Inc.) like being a student&#13 ; worker really exposes you to a lot of like the administrative side of a&#13 ; university. So I got to be able to experience that. So when I stepped into that&#13 ; role, I already had all those resources. And I knew a lot of students, so they&#13 ; knew who I was. And so when I started, I had enough&#13 ; &#13 ; members to make the organization active, which I believe is three. You need a&#13 ; secretary, a vice (president) and a president. We talked extensively during the&#13 ; summer about like, who's going to take up what role, and what are we gonna do&#13 ; and how are we gonna do things? And kind of, things like that. I originally, I&#13 ; believe was just gonna be a vice president, another student wanted to be president.&#13 ; &#13 ; And I'm like, I have no ties to any role. My only objective is to make this&#13 ; organization active again. And I think it was the week or two before classes&#13 ; started, both of them dropped out. And I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna&#13 ; do, but I'll figure this out because I'm resourceful. So,&#13 ; &#13 ; I just started reaching out to every student that I knew. I'm like, you remember&#13 ; when BSU was like, and all this stuff? And just trying to--and even new&#13 ; students, I was like, “You look like a leader!” I was just heavy, heavy with my&#13 ; recruitment until I finally got two people to be in the role of vice president&#13 ; and treasurer. And then I was able to go to Josh at the time who was like&#13 ; overseeing student organizations. (laughs).&#13 ; &#13 ; I'm like, okay, “I have all the paperwork (laughs), like can we be active now?”&#13 ; And then it was definitely really rocky. It was, it was really rocky, because at&#13 ; the time I was like, I'm just trying to get us back into a place where we&#13 ; &#13 ; have presence on campus cause we're here, like Black students are here, they're&#13 ; just not collectively coming here. And so I also, at the same time, I'm&#13 ; honestly, I don't know how I did all these things, but at the same time (laughs)&#13 ; while I was in, in InterVarsity, they have like a Black student body as well&#13 ; within that, that organization. And so I was working with Black Student Unions&#13 ; at other campuses. I was like, let me see how you all do this because your group&#13 ; is so big. And then I'm like, okay, well instead of trying to motivate these&#13 ; students who are like, I don't want to go (laughs), I'm gonna work with these&#13 ; students who already have the--already energized about meeting together about,&#13 ; you know, centering Black narrative and who want&#13 ; &#13 ; to move that forward.&#13 ; &#13 ; So we attempted to do like events together. So, I feel like a lot of people get&#13 ; F.O.M.O (Fear Of Missing Out), so I'm like, if I make the event cool enough and&#13 ; bring enough people, they're gonna want to come. And so I did a lot of that, and&#13 ; I designed the logo. I fixed the bylaws and I worked a lot with other students&#13 ; because I was like, I think this was like my, ‘cause this was my senior year, I&#13 ; had to do all of this my senior year, graduate, you know, look for a job, all&#13 ; those things. And so I kind of searched for the next presidents. I was like,&#13 ; “Hey, you have the potential. Come with me to this event, I think you would&#13 ; benefit from it.” And&#13 ; &#13 ; I invested time in their development, like, not to pressure you, but I am&#13 ; leaving (laughs) so, it would be great if someone could step into these roles.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so I remember my last year and no one really what was stepping up and I was&#13 ; like, I just have to leave it and hope that it works out. So I went to my&#13 ; mentor, Roger, who at the time was the director of the LGBT Center and I was&#13 ; like, “Can you do me a favor?” (laughs) Can you, because he's an agitator, he,&#13 ; he will make sure like something gets done. So I was like, “Can you please make&#13 ; sure that someone steps up? Cause I'm, I'm graduating, like I can't do any more&#13 ; past this.” So yeah, that was,&#13 ; &#13 ; that was a lot (laughs).&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah. It definitely sounds like you, kind of once again used out of&#13 ; the box style thinking to try and ensure the future of the organization and the&#13 ; health of the organization, which is definitely, definitely needed (laughs) in&#13 ; situations like that. Regarding the relationship between those organizations and&#13 ; just in general on our campus, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center&#13 ; playing as it coexists with these different organizations devoted to identity&#13 ; expression? Like, what kind of role do you think it inhabits and still inhabits?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So, I&#13 ; &#13 ; don't remember the name of it, but my friend G was trying to start like a&#13 ; council for all like, multicultural student organizations to meet--to board&#13 ; leaders to meet together and be able to have a space to discuss issues or&#13 ; concerns or what have you together like a, quasi-United Nations (laughs), if you&#13 ; will. So I think that was the first time I kind of saw the way that the&#13 ; Cross-Cultural (Center) can collaborate, and empower, and equip student&#13 ; organizations to not only self-express, but also to address matters&#13 ; &#13 ; that are important for them. Or how to just really have representation. Because&#13 ; I think that was really important. Like, for me, coming from a place where there&#13 ; wasn't that growing up, like I remember (laughs), I remember going to the Career&#13 ; Center on campus and there was this--stand and repeat, and it had a Black&#13 ; student on it.&#13 ; &#13 ; And then I don't remember what the language was underneath it, but it basically&#13 ; implied as what I had interpreted of it, was that like, Black students aren't&#13 ; gonna get employed, something like that. And I was like,&#13 ; &#13 ; “You have to change that.” (laughs) That's not gonna work. Like, that's not&#13 ; gonna bring Black students in here. You need to show them, themselves in the&#13 ; careers that they want, because they're out there. There are successful people&#13 ; of color. And so--I mean, same thing with like posters around campus. I'm like,&#13 ; “Who made that? There's not enough people that look diverse enough for that to&#13 ; be representing our campus.” So yeah I think it, it, it equips and empowers, not&#13 ; only like the board members on those--because like we had free printing. The&#13 ; Student Life and Leadership Center had a place where you could make a-frames,&#13 ; like you could make the&#13 ; &#13 ; materials that you need.&#13 ; &#13 ; Like you didn't have to do everything out of pocket. And especially for&#13 ; marginalized, you know minority groups. Sometimes money is not something that&#13 ; you have to just make materials for. I remember (laughs) the biggest thing for&#13 ; like, I feel like students tend to get behind is like, “Do I get a T-shirt&#13 ; (laughs)?” If you have swag for them, they're like, “Yeah, I'll definitely show&#13 ; up.” So I was like, we need to get T-shirts for Black Student Union. And because&#13 ; I was a student, because I worked, or you know, worked at the Cross-Cultural&#13 ; Center and I knew the resources they had available, I was like, “I know what&#13 ; website to make it on. I can order them. I can have them, have it done. I know&#13 ; where to go to get scholarships for our&#13 ; &#13 ; group.” So I think, that is what's really like, special about that relationship&#13 ; with, you know, centers who work with student organizations.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah, totally. That's super cool. I heard on swag, that is definitely&#13 ; a great way to get, to get people in through the door and get your message&#13 ; heard, funnily enough. My next set of questions and the, the questions that&#13 ; we'll kind of wrap up on are a little bit more abstract. So I just wanted to ask&#13 ; you how your experiences with Cross-Cultural Center, as well as Black Student&#13 ; Union on that note, impacted your professional path and what you currently do?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So I'm, I'm sort&#13 ; &#13 ; of in a career transition space, so I wouldn't necessarily say that those&#13 ; experiences impacted my profession. I would say they impacted me personally and&#13 ; my politics. I think it opened my eyes to a lot of different things,&#13 ; organizations, what people are doing in the community and it motivated me to&#13 ; serve the community in a different way. Right after college, I ended up going on&#13 ; a missions trip in Fresno, and seeing poverty in a different way. And I also&#13 ; worked with Inner City Youth in Escondido as well as here in&#13 ; &#13 ; Central San Diego. So I think it definitely shaped my passion for development.&#13 ; And I guess in some ways I still sort of do that in my role now. But my job I&#13 ; would say is, more like financially driven decisions versus passions and what&#13 ; sort of shaped me there.&#13 ; &#13 ; But after--I believe it, after (George) Floyd was murdered? I think it was&#13 ; during the pandemic like, 2020, when that whole bit happened. I mean I was going&#13 ; to protests before&#13 ; &#13 ; then. Like I went to the Women's March, I went to some other protests as well. I&#13 ; even brought some of my students (laughs). I was like, “This is what a protest&#13 ; is.” And so when that happened in the pandemic, it just, it's hard because it's&#13 ; like wrapped around tragedy, you know, these things that are so unjust that it,&#13 ; (laughs) I was telling my therapist that I have like an--eloquent rage. Like I&#13 ; want (laughs) to do things in a certain way that will affect change in the&#13 ; system that's already existing. Sometimes I do want to be very radical, but also&#13 ; I just don't want like Black people to keep dying, you know?&#13 ; &#13 ; And so I actually ended up kind of getting my boyfriend at the time into that&#13 ; too. I think he had always been like into it, but the way that he would protest&#13 ; is virtually. And I'm like, come see what it's like grassroots. Because It's a&#13 ; different feeling. And so we went in our cars, and we went up to like La Jolla&#13 ; and came back to central San Diego and then went all the way down to National&#13 ; City as a protest. And there was like hundreds of cars, it was all over the&#13 ; news. We had made posters. It was like a huge thing. And I feel like, that&#13 ; moment kind of reminded me of when I was at the Social Justice Summits and&#13 ; watching someone's&#13 ; &#13 ; lightbulb turn on almost like, oh wow, like this is what it, what it's like, l&#13 ; being in solidarity with other, with others and wanting the change that we need.&#13 ; &#13 ; We don't want individuals to be brutalized and murdered by individuals that we&#13 ; thought we could trust to keep us safe, you know? And so I get, I get chills&#13 ; thinking about it. I remember there was one student, he was like, “How can you&#13 ; just get up there and like, speak on the mic and not be afraid?” And I'm like,&#13 ; “I am afraid!” I'm very afraid, but I also don't want this to happen anymore.&#13 ; It's not okay. And so I would rather&#13 ; &#13 ; be afraid and find the courage to get through it, than be afraid and do nothing.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Absolutely. And I'm sorry, it's just super profound (laughs) super&#13 ; profound things that you're talking about. And also just so much value in being&#13 ; able to relate those experiences back together. And also, again, tangibly seeing&#13 ; results from, your own efforts make--be them personal or professional. So very,&#13 ; very cool. Just a few more questions left. What direction do you think the&#13 ; Cross-Cultural Center should grow in?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: I visit like maybe every, two or three years (both laughs). So I don't&#13 ; know what the last three years have been because I, the la--I think the last&#13 ; time I went to campus was like maybe (20)17 or (20)18. So it's been a while&#13 ; since I've been there. And it's a different, it's a different vibe than how it&#13 ; was when I was there. We were like a smaller center, you know, we didn't have&#13 ; this beautiful (University) Student Union. We had the Commons, and if anyone&#13 ; knows what the Commons are, there were these small little rooms, (laughs) that&#13 ; we just made work, you know? And they would be filled with students. And so I&#13 ; remember seeing the blueprints of this&#13 ; &#13 ; Student Union. And for me, I'm just like, “This is awesome!” I feel like I was,&#13 ; you know, part of the building blocks of this, and I'm just honestly proud of&#13 ; how things have evolved.&#13 ; &#13 ; I will say (laughs) the, this is maybe not necessarily like the Cross-Cultural&#13 ; Center, but I've heard that the parking permits there are ridiculous. Like, for&#13 ; passes, like I go, I, I got my master's at University of San Diego, their annual&#13 ; passes are under a hundred dollars. And so to have a parking pass that's $600 or&#13 ; something like that, I was like, that's wild. If I was there, I'd be protesting&#13 ; about it. This is ridiculous. Like, what are you, let me see your (laughs), let&#13 ; me see your expenditure sheets, let me see your multi-year budget plans, because&#13 ; this doesn't make&#13 ; &#13 ; sense, like it should not be that expensive. I really don't know what the&#13 ; student activism looks like. You know, I know that when I was there that a lot&#13 ; of people kind of saw the Cross-Cultural Center as like a Pan-Asian space,&#13 ; because that's kind of a lot of the students that would come to that space.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so when I was there, I was like, I want to see everybody (laughs). I want to&#13 ; go and like find where you guys are and let you know, this is here, like MEChA&#13 ; (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan) come over, you know, Black students&#13 ; come over. I'd be like, “Okay, what movie do you want to see? (laughs) I'm about&#13 ; to put it on the TV. You know, like make you feel comfortable. So yeah, I think&#13 ; that's kind of something that was needed then. I don't know what it's like now.&#13 ; I know when I kind of like popped in it's--there was mostly Asian students there,&#13 ; &#13 ; but you know, I think as long as students are using the space, I think that's&#13 ; what matters most. That's what it's there for. I think it's great that you know,&#13 ; peer educators can, I don't know if they're doing this now, but when I was&#13 ; there, I would go into classrooms and I would teach curriculum to students about&#13 ; identity and allyship.&#13 ; &#13 ; So I hope that they're still doing stuff like that because there are situations&#13 ; where I--where it impacts the world, it impacts, you know, that, that macrocosm.&#13 ; And in turn we, you know, sometimes professors don't know what to say and some&#13 ; of those students might be having a hard time being present, learning about, I&#13 ; don't know,&#13 ; &#13 ; whatever subject, like microorganisms, (laughs), you know what I mean? And so&#13 ; how can you as a professor tie in like what's going on in the world to address&#13 ; it, but also like be there for the students in a way that, you know, maybe is&#13 ; not necessarily like a savior complex, but in a way that's supportive. Like “I&#13 ; see you, I see that, you know, this could be something that, you may or may not&#13 ; be noticing in life or affected by, but there's this place where you can go,” or&#13 ; like bringing in those students to those classrooms. And nothing against the&#13 ; hard sciences. We love math, we love science. But you know, sometimes those&#13 ; spaces are very black and white and the Cross-Cultural Center lives in a gray&#13 ; space. And so to be able to show students that and help them with identity&#13 ; development, because like I said,&#13 ; &#13 ; college is such a unique time. You’re a quasi-adult, but not really. And you&#13 ; have to take on all these responsibilities in addition to graduating. So.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah. Absolutely. My next question, and again this is going to kind of&#13 ; reference the current landscape of CSUSM. So don't worry if you can't think of&#13 ; like a super accurate answer or anything. You can also comment about the time,&#13 ; like around the time that you graduated and moved on. But what communities do&#13 ; you feel are underrepresented on campus?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Hmm...&#13 ; &#13 ; I don't really know. I know like when I was a student... so, I know I, I&#13 ; definitely got involved with like undocumented students ’cause that experience&#13 ; was something that I personally didn't have like experience in. But I had a&#13 ; friend, several friends, who were undocumented. And I remember going to Social&#13 ; Justice Summit and having that lightbulb. And we were talking about undocumented&#13 ; students and I was like, “Oh my God.” Like I drove one of my friends who I know&#13 ; is undocumented and I didn't have&#13 ; &#13 ; like (laughs), this is again, me living rebelliously. I was driving, and my&#13 ; license plate was expired or something like that? And I was like, “Oh my gosh.”&#13 ; If I had gotten pulled over and this police officer wasn't chill, I could have&#13 ; endangered my friend. And so, I think it grew my like empathy for that community.&#13 ; &#13 ; I remember their group was like, sort of active, sort of not, at the time when I&#13 ; was a student. I think MEChA--&#13 ; &#13 ; DeMaria: Um-hmm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Is such a big organization like nationally that sometimes the&#13 ; undocumented experience kind of becomes adjacent to that. So one of the friends&#13 ; that I&#13 ; &#13 ; was referring to, I believe she served in a leadership role for, I don't&#13 ; remember what the name of that undocumented student organization was, but I&#13 ; remember her talking about that and kind of trying to differentiate that group&#13 ; as a result. I also have another friend that I still talk to today. She created&#13 ; an organization called Et Cetera. And her whole goal was to be a catchall for&#13 ; the others. Like you're not really feeling like a certain cultural identity.&#13 ; Like maybe you don't want to be in the math group, like maybe you don't want to&#13 ; be in a fraternity, like come to Et Cetera (laughs). And so I thought that that&#13 ; was really cool that she wanted to create a space for individuals who either&#13 ; like myself live in like a duality, or others who just&#13 ; &#13 ; maybe don't identify in a particular space.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Totally. I have two questions left to just wrap things up. So first&#13 ; one, what is the most important lesson you've taken from your experience with&#13 ; the Cross-Cultural Center?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: There were so many lessons (both laughs). Definitely difficult to pick&#13 ; one. I think I, I, I learned my power. And at that time I learned a, that I had&#13 ; power and leadership potential, but also that how to use it, in a way&#13 ; &#13 ; that would affect change. Like I remember when--I hope that this tabloid paper&#13 ; doesn't exist on that campus anymore. Because If it does, I'm driving (laughs)&#13 ; to make sure it's not there. But--they, it was called The Koala. The Koala also&#13 ; existed on I think UCSD (University of California San Diego), but basically it&#13 ; was a tabloid paper, and they would just write, just excuse my language, but&#13 ; like, bullshit about people, about groups, about minority groups. And they're&#13 ; like, “Oh, but it's satire.” And I'm like, “This still doesn't make it okay.” I&#13 ; was such an agitator to them that they put me in one of their editions.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so I remember noticing that this was not&#13 ; &#13 ; okay, you know, me stepping into my power and then I protested by myself. I was&#13 ; like, I'm gonna stand next to you. I'm not gonna say anything, but I'm gonna&#13 ; hold this sign up, and I'm gonna stand next to you, so that other people&#13 ; understand that this is not okay and that you shouldn't be passing this out on&#13 ; campus. And like my friends were like coming up to me and they're like, “Oh my&#13 ; gosh, like you are so awesome for doing this." And I connected with other&#13 ; campuses and I'm like, “What are you guys doing about this (laughs) paper?”&#13 ; Because you know, such and such. And then I remember other people kind of in&#13 ; solidarity doing other things to expose the students and who are doing these&#13 ; salacious things, like who the editor was (laughs). They wrote it on the steps,&#13 ; like the steps that are next to the clock.&#13 ; &#13 ; They wrote the names of all the members in the organization.&#13 ; &#13 ; This person is in it and this person is in it and they want to hide, but&#13 ; (laughs), they're not gonna hide. We're gonna bring them to light. They actually&#13 ; bit their--put their own shoe in their mouth. But I think the editor attempted&#13 ; to run for ASI president.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria:&#13 ; &#13 ; Right?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: And if he had accomplished his goal, that paper would've been basically&#13 ; passed out, like how the Cougar News (student newspaper) gets passed out. But he&#13 ; ended up (laughs) fraud, like basically doing identity theft and faking votes so&#13 ; that he could win. So I was like, “Well, not only did you lose, but you also are gonna&#13 ; &#13 ; have to be prosecuted for like 500 counts of identity theft.” And that's a&#13 ; federal offense (laughs). So I think it was a mixture of, you know, stepping&#13 ; into my power, but also knowing that I have, like I have a cap, I have a&#13 ; battery, at some point my battery is gonna go down and I need to recharge.&#13 ; &#13 ; So I think that was another lesson that I learned, was like how to recharge, how&#13 ; to self-preserve. Because I know there were times that I was doing a lot of&#13 ; things. And even just thinking about it, I was like, “That sounds like a lot&#13 ; like (laughs). When did you have you time?” I remember there was a point where I&#13 ; had stopped making such a fuss about that paper,&#13 ; &#13 ; and there was a student who was doing a class project where they were&#13 ; interviewing people about that paper. And I was like, I wrote in the comments, I&#13 ; was like, “Don't stop agitating, keep going.” So even in my time of&#13 ; preservation, I was still encouraging others to develop their power and what&#13 ; they found to be important for them.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah. So comments on that. That's a really crazy intense story. And&#13 ; also just on a personal level, I'm glad that you were there to be the initial&#13 ; agitator essentially. And you know, just, affect that change, like how you said.&#13 ; So that's definitely a demonstration of power (laughs) used responsibly and for&#13 ; a good end.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Which&#13 ; &#13 ; is very, very cool. For my final question, I want to relate back to something&#13 ; you said at the very beginning of the interview. You described feeling like an&#13 ; other in your community growing up in Orange County. So, I just would like to&#13 ; know, as someone who has also felt like an other growing up in a community, if&#13 ; someone feels that way, what tips or advice would you give them to start&#13 ; agitating or get involved in social justice?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: I mean--I feel like my experiences as an other sort of like, I describe&#13 ; it like a butterfly, because I am like--ambiguous&#13 ; &#13 ; (laughs) physically and mentally. I just kind of butterfly my way through groups&#13 ; and I learn from all those experiences. So being an other doesn't necessarily&#13 ; have to define you into the other box. It can give you capacity to be in every&#13 ; box. I remember my sister for those demographic questions where they're like,&#13 ; “What race are you?” And she was like, “I just check all of them!” (laughs) So&#13 ; in a way you just check all of them. You can go into this group, you can go into&#13 ; that group and people would welcome me, like regardless. So that was like really&#13 ; nice, to experience. But also I think--&#13 ; &#13 ; I don't know if every school campus has like a Social Justice&#13 ; &#13 ; Summit type of thing, but I honestly think that something like that definitely&#13 ; informs the way that you develop in your social justice identity or your social&#13 ; justice, activism. But honestly, you could, just join a march, like when they&#13 ; had the Women's March or I think there was another march for all of the like&#13 ; school shootings that were happening that were student led. Just being a part of&#13 ; grassroots organizations can shape that activist part in individuals as well as&#13 ; shaping identity, you know. But I think what I noticed in school (laughs) is&#13 ; when you learn about other cultures, especially in American history, it's&#13 ; &#13 ; terrible. They don't really put you into this really wonderful light. It's like&#13 ; genocide, slavery, and then President Obama (laughs).&#13 ; &#13 ; And you're like, okay--but where's all the in between? And so, you know, even&#13 ; just having literature, I would hope you know that the Kellogg Library has a lot&#13 ; of options, but I had friends who gave me literature that helped me to develop&#13 ; that part of myself and to see--people who looked like me that were successful,&#13 ; but also people who were affecting change. Who were women, who were, you know,&#13 ; minority groups, who were young. I think for me,&#13 ; &#13 ; growing up in a single parent household, you want to, or at least for me, I&#13 ; wanted to see a strong woman and like my grandma, she's definitely a part of my&#13 ; strong personality, but also it's like different when it's not your mom. And so&#13 ; for me, I was like looking for that maternal figure and so I found it a lot in&#13 ; supervisors, or professors, and I was like, that's the kind of woman that I want&#13 ; to be, who doesn't just sit and let things happen but will be willing to stand&#13 ; up for what I believe in.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: I think that's excellent advice. And again, just, a manifestation of&#13 ; taking pride in your identity rather than allowing that box or&#13 ; &#13 ; that label to define you or your actions, even if those actions are advantageous&#13 ; to social justice. So I completely get that.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Yeah&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: And with that, I know that we're at time. So I just wanted to thank&#13 ; you for taking the time out for this interview, Chanel. We definitely covered a&#13 ; lot, in terms of your personal experience, and I also learned a lot more about&#13 ; the CCC as I continue to interview more people for this project and kind of&#13 ; embark on this journey myself. So overall, just wanted to thank you for opening&#13 ; up and allowing others to be part of that experience and kind of understand what&#13 ; you went through and what you did.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley:&#13 ; &#13 ; Yeah, definitely. Well, if you want any contacts for other people--who to&#13 ; interview or if you have enough, that's cool too. (Both laugh) If you want some&#13 ; of the OGs, (De Maria laughs) I still talk to them.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Absolutely. We'll talk offline, but (both laugh)&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Thank you so much Chanel&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: You’re welcome,&#13 ; &#13 ; okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14.xml BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bradley, Chanel. Interview April 14th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Chanel Bradley is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Women's and Gender Studies in 2012. Chanel worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2012 and was involved in various social identity-related causes on campus. In this interview, Chanel discusses her experience as a peer educator at the Cross-Cultural Center and her recollections of the center during her time at CSUSM. Bradley was also involved in the Women's Center [now Gender Equity Center]. In her interview, Bradley also recalls how she revived the campus Black Student Union, protested the unauthorized student newspaper, The Koala, and came into her power. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-35 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Civil rights Civil rights demonstrations -- California -- San Marcos Minorities in higher education Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-14 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bradley, Chanel Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource De Maria, Michael Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Chanel Bradley Activists and activism Black experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/747be3f849be63b46622662e44e0c283.pdf ce24c0a94044cfa6a84ec48e5febe6f4 PDF Text Text Transcript Tanis Brown: Okay. So, today is February 2nd, 2023, and this is a part of the North County Oral History Initiative. My name is Tanis Brown, and today I will be interviewing Sharon Jenkins. So, hi Sharon. Thanks very much for coming in today. You and I have been friends for a long time, but there are some things about you that I don’t really know. So, I’d like to find out a little bit more about your San Marcos story. Sharon Jenkins: Right. Thanks for having me, Tanis. This—I’m excited you’re doing this. Brown: Good. Well, I’d like to start from the beginning. Where were you born, Sharon? Jenkins: I was born in Quincy, Massachusetts— Brown: Oh my gosh. Jenkins: —and I moved from Quincy when I was very young. I don’t even know how young, less than five. And I moved to Scituate, Massachusetts. And I lived there until 1971, when we moved to San Marcos. Brown: Okay. So, you came to San Marcos in 1971, and would you still have been going to school at that time? Jenkins: So, yes. I started San Marcos High School in 1971 as a freshman. Brown: Okay. And the school was just ten years old at that time, so— Jenkins: Yes. Brown: —it was a new school. Jenkins: Yes, very small. Brown: How many students in the–in the graduating class, Sharon? Jenkins: So, I don’t remember the number. I would guess maybe less than two hundred. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: I know when we graduated, we could sit on the visitor’s side of the bleachers in the old gym. Brown: (chuckles) Jenkins: So, that’s how small we were. Brown: Okay. Did you have a football team and everything, and— Jenkins: We had a football team, yes, yes. Brown: All right. So, any changes between the east coast and coming to the west coast? Jenkins: I think I was so young that I probably didn’t understand what those changes were. �Brown: Okay. Jenkins: Um, I remembered it–I remembered feeling like it was very, um, —things were very scattered here, and–and not very busy. Brown: Oh, compared to the east coast. Jenkins: Right, right. Brown: Interesting. Um, so other than changing coasts, do you have any other childhood memories that stick out in your mind that maybe you carry forward today, or any traits about yourself? Jenkins: I would say, as far as high school and that era, um, making–making friends that some of them I still have as friends today. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: San Marcos was very small back then. So, um, there was a lot of people connected and, even though we’re much larger today, a lot of those connections are still in place. When I moved here there were, I believe, less than 10,000 people in San Marcos. Brown: Wow. That’s so cool. And you actually moved to Lake San Marcos when you first came here? Jenkins: Yes, I did. I moved to Lake San Marcos. Um, that’s where my parents purchased a house. And my dad was a pilot and commuted to L.A. when he needed to fly. And, um, he decided on Lake San Marcos because he felt that it was such a great, safe community. And he had a friend in Escondido who told him that San Marcos had a new high school and had a very good reputation. So, that’s another reason why he–he picked San Marcos. Brown: Okay. Oh, that’s interesting. So, Lake San Marcos was kind of an entity unto itself when it was first constructed and was highly touted as a–a kind of upscale community. Did you–did you notice any of that growing up in terms of–of students or residents of San Marcos? Did you always feel yourself a part of the community of San Marcos? Jenkins: Yes, always. So, when I moved there, as I look back, I think there were less than five children living in Lake San Marcos, because it was a retirement community back then. And most of the homes that are there today were not there. It was m–majority was empty lots that homes hadn’t been constructed yet— Brown: Okay Jenkins: —um, along the streets. (nods her head) Brown: Okay. Jenkins: So, I think the big thing I noticed, um, was very few—in fact, I don’t eve–I think I only knew one or two—other kids that lived there, but always felt it was a part of San Marcos to me. (nods her head again) �Brown: Okay. That’s great. Okay. So, just in terms of the overall community of San Marcos back in 1971 and during your high school years, wha–what were the big deals? What was–what was the city like at that time for you growing up? Jenkins: Um, I was—since I was new to the community—I didn’t have some of the connections that many of the other kids had that had been through school from however young. Um, so I think some of the connections were um, um, you know, as you made friends, hanging out with those friends, I remember a teacher encouraged my mom, “Get her involved in something.” And I think I was on the tennis team for a year. (chuckles) Um, never play tennis. But the whole thing was, you know, the staff at that time was to get kids involved in–in things. Um, Friday night football was a big deal back then and um, um, just hanging out with whatever friends you had. Brown: Mm-hmm. So, in the community, though, did your parents get involved in the community? Were they involved in Kiwanis and Rotary and that kind of thing? Jenkins: No. Brown: Were those organizations available at that time, or— Jenkins: I don’t know. I s–assume so. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: No. They were involved in playing golf. (laughs) Brown: Okay. Okay. And that was a big thing in Lake San Marcos— Jenkins: Yes! Brown: —to play golf. They had, what, an executive course? Jenkins: I don’t think they had the executive course then. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: But they did have the big course, and I’m sure that was one of the reasons why my dad selected there, too, because they both played golf. Brown: All right. Jenkins: And I played golf too. My dad taught me–started to teach me, um, when I was about nine. And, um–and so I would go out and play. There was a couple of people–a couple kids at that time, and another gal and I would go out and play periodically. Brown: Okay. So, today San Marcos is fairly well-known for its colleges. We have Palomar Community College and Cal State San Marcos. After graduating from high school, did–did you—you might not of even had those opportunities, although Palomar, I think, was here at that point in time. Where–what did you do after high school, after graduating from high school? Jenkins: So, I graduated from high school and went to Palomar College because it had such a great reputation back then as it does now. I went to Palomar, and then, um, transferred to San Diego State. But it was right around the time—actually, I think that I was going on campus to �San Diego, and then as I got closer to finishing—it took me much longer than two years, because I worked. But, as I got closer to finishing, they started to have some remote classes in North County, and I think a couple of classes I went to—one was in the–a middle school in Vista, on a Saturday, I think, and another one was in, um, a business class from an—off of Furniture Row. So, San Diego—so, Cal State San Marcos wasn’t here, but they had started to expand some opportunities for the No–North County kids. So, it wasn’t a lot of classes, but it was just enough that you could take a couple and not have to commute to San Diego. Brown: All right. Great. So, you finished up at–at San Diego State, and did you have a vocation or an avocation in mind, um, while you were going to college? Jenkins: Business. Brown: Business. Jenkins: Yes. I focused on business administration and accounting at the time. Brown: Okay. And you said you were–you worked your way through college? You were working while you were going to college. Jenkins: I worked while I went to college. I ended up, um—after I left Palomar—I always worked part-time. After I left Palomar, I think I might have started to work full-time and then I took classes at night, and would commute down to San Diego State at night, a couple of nights a week. Brown: Oh. So, you had a busy life, even back then. Jenkins: Yes. Brown: (laughs) Wow, that’s great. So, commuting to school—what was driving to San Diego State from San Marcos like? What–how–what was the timeframe? Jenkins: So, I always thought it was a good, um, a good travel time if I could do it in about thirty minutes. (both of them chuckle) Most of the time it was more than that. But it depended, you know. If it was a class that ended at nine o’clock, then you could pretty much get home within thirty minutes or so. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: But there definitely were times of the day when it was more difficult to get there, even back then! That would have been in the, um, let’s see, probably the late seventies. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: So. And the freeways weren’t as big as they are today. Brown: Right. Jenkins: But we didn’t have as many cars back then. Brown: Okay. So, then after graduation did you look for employment in, locally, or interested in going someplace else? �Jenkins: So, while I was in high school, my first job during high school after my sophomore year was working at Taco Bell in Escondido. And then–um, and then I started my junior year and then I was an aide for one of the high school counselors and he had a neighbor who had a business in Escondido. And he said, “Sharon, you–this–my neighbor is looking for some work. Why don’t you go see if they could–if, you know–apply for a job there.” And that was the summer after my junior year. So, I worked the summer after my junior year at the company, and then when my senior year started, I was only going half-day. And so, I would go to high school in the morning, and then I would go work in the afternoon. And then I graduated mid-year my senior year. So, I was able to start Palomar and I still worked part-time for the company. And then, while I was going to Palomar, I just continued to work part-time and plan my classes accordingly. So, when I finished college, I conti–started full-time with the company. In fact, I probably started full-time before a graduated from college and finished college at night. I think that’s how it went. Brown: Wow. So, you were a working woman early on. Jenkins: Very early. Brown: Yeah. And did you stay in the accounting field for a long time? Jenkins: Yes. Most of my work there was office type work, accounting related work. And then I worked there for about ten years, and then I applied for, while I was in college, I applied for a internship, I guess you will, at IBM in San Diego. And so, I was hired to work part-time. I don’t know what it was called exactly, but similar to a internship. And then I worked a year doing that. And then–and then after that year, I started full-time there and I stayed there, um, for probably early 90s. And then–and then I quit so I could stay home with my kids. Brown: All right. Wow. Okay. So, when I first met you, you were involved in real estate. How did that transition happen? Jenkins: So, I think we actually met earlier than that, when Allan and I were on the school board together. Brown: Oh, okay. Jenkins: Okay? Um, and, um, so I–I stayed home with my kids. Did different part-time things. Volunteered a lot in the schools. That’s how I met Allan and eventually you. And then as my la– my second daughter was about to graduate from high school, I thought well what am I going to do now? And so then a friend said, “Why don’t you think about becoming a realtor?” And I never gave it a thought. But, I said, “Okay, well, I’ll check into that.” And so, I did that and it– it’s a way to help people which is what I like to do. And so, it has worked out well. So, I’ve been doing that for, mm, probably close to seventeen years. Brown: All right. That’s great. Well, you segued right into the kind of second theme of my interview questions and that is your very long career in local government, starting with the school district. And so, my question to you about that is, um, you know, what–what–what inspired you to get involved beyond the local parent organization in the school district here in San Marcos? �Jenkins: So, I think being involved in–in the local parent groups actually was my segue into the next part. Because I was involved in different parent organizations. I was involved in the 1996 School Board Bond effort. I co-chaired that with two other people. And then after that, once you volunteer for something, as Dennis well knows, (they both chuckle) you are encouraged to volunteer for more. And one day somebody caught me in one of the school parking lots and said, “Have you ever running for the school board?” which I said, “I’ve—No.” And then, so then finally in 1998, Lucy Gross who was a school board member for a long time which even Allan knew well, was leaving the board and she–and she also approached me and said, “You know, you should think about this because of the involvement with the schools.” And so–so I was on the school board from 1998 until 2012. Brown: Wow. So, during that time, how much did the school district change in those years? Jenkins: I would say dramatically, more so towards the last half than the beginning. But San Marcos was growing considerably then. I want to say, when I first started, there might have been—I don’t know—maybe eight, maybe ten thousand students. I’d have to go back and look at that. And now there are cl–close to, you know, approximately twenty [thousand]. So, it was a very growth intensified time, a lot of schools being built, always financial troubles from–due to state funding. But somehow, we got it all done. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And I think during the last, um–you know, during the last five years or so, my term there is just, I think, when dramatic things change. It was always interesting. I was told, and I–I didn’t realize this until–until later, but I was told that, um, at different times of an organization, there’s different priorities. And sometimes it’s a–it’s a school building cycle. Sometimes it’s a curriculum cycle that you’re working to overcome. Sometimes it’s a financial cycle that you’re working to overcome. And, um, and so as I look back, I realize when I first got on, it was a growth cycle. So, it was building. And then later it became more curriculum focused cycle. All– always–always focused on curriculum, but you–you pick and choose things to make things happen sooner than later. And so, looking back, I–I–I now see what that very intelligent person meant. Brown: So, what was your favorite thing about—or a couple of your favorite things—about being in a leadership position for a school district? Jenkins: I would say my colleagues on the school board and staff. I think—you know, we’re supposed to have the vision at a–at a high level, figure out what those goals are. And then it’s the staff that makes it happen. And I think San Marcos—both on a school district and city-wide too—has always had great staff. I think we were lucky. And we had school board members that kept their focus on the kids and what was best for the kids. We couldn’t always get there as quickly as we wanted, but eventually we would get there. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: I think also the staff and the–the other electeds, but also, um, some of the things that I–I find the most memorable to me are buildings, seeing the new schools open. High school graduations are always great because, you know, it’s a huge success for the kids and the–and the �staff, to get them to where they were that day. And also, I think the–the two school bonds that we worked on over the years. Those were—that brought such change to the community, both of those. And–and as an elected official, sometimes it’s difficult when you have to make really difficult decisions. But it’s also gratifying when you–when you realize, okay, I made the right decision. It's difficult, but I made the right decision. Brown: And you come out on the–on the other end of it feeling really positive. Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brown: Yeah. That’s good. So, from the school board, then you put your name in to be a city council representative and that comes with a whole ‘nother group of–of learning curves and–and, uh, opportunities and challenges. So, any differences between the s–what you were dealing with on the school board versus the city council? Jenkins: I would say, um, a couple differences. The–the school district had, probably when I started, maybe, I don’t know, maybe not even a thousand employees and less than ten schools. Whereas I think the school district is more complex with a lot of the issues they have to deal with. I think the city is–just has a smaller scale to it. And the needs are—you’re looking at different needs than what the school district is looking at. You know, we have, say, two hundred and some employees and many facilities. But those facilities are, in my mind, are less complicated than a school facility. Brown: Oh. Interesting. Wow. So, what was the first year you were elected to the city council? Jenkins: 2012. Brown: So, 2012. So, there was no break between the school district and moving right into city council. Jenkins: No. I was mid-term— Brown: Okay. Jenkins: —in 2012. So, I had two years into my four-year term. And there was a sitting councilmember who wasn’t running. And so, again, I had a–a couple people approach me and say, “You know, you should think about this.” And I said, “I know nothing about any of that.” I said, “I haven’t been on the planning commission. How do I learn all that.” (both of them chuckle) And so about maybe–maybe about a year, maybe s–not quite six months before the election, I started to talk to as many people as I could to see, you know, what their thoughts were. We, at that point, had lost redevelopment money to the state. The state clawed back, I think it was twenty-some million dollars of redevelopment money, and I had a couple people say, “Why would you even want to go into that because, you know, there’s a huge situation going on here.” But I just decided that, after talking to a number of people, that I felt I had good support, and I thought, you know, I can–I can learn this. I can do this. I had a lot of people that said, you know, “Come back and talk to me whenever you need to.” And so, I did it. Brown: Yeah. Were the–was the campaigning different between the school board and the city council? �Jenkins: Um, not–not drastically back then. To me it was citywide and to me the school board at that point in time was also citywide. So, I had–I think I had some name recognition with the parents and then because of being involved in different things in the district, then that–I think that gave me a leg up. Brown: Mm-hmm. Okay. Jenkins: So, it’s about—yeah, I would say, at that point in time, it was about the same. Brown: Okay. So, another continuing growth effort in our city over the time that you have been serving on the city council. So, I’d like to ask you—in that time that you’ve been on which is like ten years going on a few more years—so, um, looking back on that last ten years, what are you—I mean—wha–what do you see as the most value that–that the city council and you, yourself, have been involved in for the–for the community? Jenkins: Um, I would say doing our best to listen to all residents. We can’t always do what residents want us to do. That can be a little frustrating because they don’t realize–al–some of what we do is out of our control. We really push for local control here in San Marcos so that we make our own decisions. But more and more state, mainly, and federal is–is telling us we have to do things differently. Or we have to adhere to certain things. And, you know, sometimes we may feel like that’s not the best thing for our community, but we don’t have a choice. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: Or we’d be sued. Brown: So, if you had a magic wand today, is there anything in San Marcos that you would change or–or improve that would make a huge difference or, uh, for our future? Jenkins: I can’t think of anything right now off the top of my head. Um, I would like to see us, um—traffic is always a big concern in San Marcos. So, I would say we have continuing efforts to work on that. It’s not necessarily all about expanding roads. Some of it’s infrastructure and– and–and other things. So, I would say, um, just trying to keep working through what we can in that area and we’re working on it. We’re spending lots of money on it. I can’t think of anything particular. We’re–I’m excited to have the bridges done in a few months. That has been something that was talked about long before I got on the council. So, I think that would be a–a big plus to the community to get that traffic flow. Brown: That’s great. So, Sharon, I would like to kind of conclude this interview with giving you an opportunity to just—if there’s anything we haven’t covered. I–I do have one more question that I kind of have been thinking about in terms of my— Knowing you for so many years, one of the things that I appreciate so much about you is your continually willingness and outreach to all the people that you’ve known for so long, which is, I’m sure, a growing number every year. How do you–how do you continue to keep in contact with this growing number of friends and colleagues that you have grown over the course of your time here in San Marcos? Jenkins: Um, let’s see. I don’t know. How do any of us do that? I think you just make an effort to–to get together with people and have meet-ups and, um, see them at different events. I try to, when things are going on within the city, I try to email people that I know would have an interest �in that. And almost always I get emails back saying, “Wow. You know, we really appreciate that, because we don’t–we don’t have access to that. And so, we’re glad to hear about something.” Just, you know, again just doing your best to try to reach out to people. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And–and see them when you can. Brown: Uh-huh. Well, I certainly think that makes you a very effective leader in our community in terms of keeping in t–touch with the way people feel. And I appreciate it. Jenkins: Thank you. I think another thing that’s important too is, um, as things have changed in the recent years, I think it is important for–for future councils and–and to understand that even though we’re in voting districts, I think it’s important that we represent all of San Marcos. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: Um, I’m in a particular district but I reach out to people in other districts all the time. Listening is the best thing we can do. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And responding to questions. Brown: Yeah. So, in closing, is there anything else you’d like to share with us that we haven’t covered today, but you’d like our audience to hear. Jenkins: Let’s see. I would say that I’m just very pleased that I’ve been able to live in one town for so long. Growing up I, you know, you always think, “Oh, I just want to get out of here.” But I’m glad that I’ve–I’ve been here as long as I have. I’m glad my daughters—one lives here. Her– her two children are going to San Marcos schools. In fact, one of them is going to Discovery Elementary and I was one of the founding PTO board members of that. So, that’s kind of fun to go back and see that school. And then my other daughter’s nearby in San Diego. So, I think being able to see them enjoy what’s going on here in North County—that, things that, you know, I enjoyed growing up. And they’re now realizing that–that it’s a good place. Brown: Absolutely. Jenkins: Yeah. Brown: All right. Jenkins: Thank you for having me. Brown: Well, thank you very much for your time today and this concludes our interview for the North County Oral History Initiative. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jenkins, Sharon. Interview transcript. February 2, 2023 Description An account of the resource Sharon Jenkins was born in Quincy, Massachusetts, grew up in Scituate, Mass., and moved to Lake San Marcos, California in 1971 where she attended San Marcos High School. She was a business major in college; after college she worked in the accounting profession for 15 years. Her involvement as a parent volunteer led her to run for San Marcos City School Board where Jenkins served for 14 years. Jenkins was elected to San Marcos City Council in 2012 and will complete her final term in 2024. She is also a Realtor. The interview focuses primarily on her high school years and her experiences serving on San Marcos' School Board and City Council. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sharon Jenkins Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tanis Brown Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-02-02 Subject The topic of the resource Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos Local government -- California -- San Marcos Public administration -- California -- San Marcos School boards -- California -- San Marcos Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-033 Community history North County Oral History Initiative Politics and governance Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Tanis Brown Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sharon Jenkins OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JenkinsSharon_BrownTanis_2023-02-02_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Jenkins, Sharon. Interview, February 2, 2023 SC027-32 0:34:26 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos Local government -- California -- San Marcos Public administration -- California -- San Marcos School boards -- California -- San Marcos Sharon Jenkins Tanis Brown mp4 JenkinsSharon_BrownTanis_2023-02-02_access.mp4 1:|18(10)|47(8)|69(7)|85(1)|96(5)|114(2)|124(6)|156(2)|167(1)|176(13)|199(9)|222(2)|231(9)|245(8)|253(6)|267(7)|276(7)|285(6)|296(3)|306(11)|318(1)|329(6)|342(11)|351(16)|370(4)|379(10)|391(11)|405(8)|418(11)|428(1)|438(5)|448(14)|473(5)|483(2) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2fbd5c479eb53fc879b7df28dcab0e80.mp4 Other video English 0 Childhood/ Moving to San Marcos, CA Sharon Jenkins briefly discusses her early childhood in Massachusetts before moving to San Marcos, CA. She grew up in Quincy, MA as a young child before her family moved to Scituate, MA. Her family lived in Scituate until 1971, when they purchased a home in Lake San Marcos. Jenkins explains that her father was a pilot and commuted to Los Angeles, CA for work. Jenkins was a high school freshman when they first arrived to San Marcos and she attended San Marcos High School. She explains that San Marcos High School was only ten years old at the time, and was a small school in the 1970s. She estimates that only two hundred students were in her graduating class. Jenkins also recalls making life-long friends in high school. High school ; Lake San Marcos (Calif.) ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Quincy (Mass.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos High School ; School ; Scituate (Mass.) ; Small community ; Small town ; Students 256 The community of San Marcos, CA Sharon Jenkins describes the new community of San Marcos during the 1970s. As a new student, her teachers encouraged her parents to sign her up for sports teams and other activities, which is how Jenkins became more active in the San Marcos community. She describes feeling connected to the community by socializing with friends at Friday night football games. Jenkins also explains that playing golf was a popular activity in Lake San Marcos. Football games ; Golfl ; High school ; Lake San Marcos (Calif.) ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos High School ; School ; Small community ; Small town ; Students ; Tennis 480 College education Sharon Jenkins recounts her busy life as a college student. After graduating from San Marcos High School, she enrolled in Palomar College and then transferred to San Diego State University (SDSU). Jenkins majored in business and administration in college. Jenkins also worked throughout her college career, working part-time while attending Palomar College, and then working full-time after transferring to SDSU. She explains that she took night classes when attending SDSU, and she would be fortunate if she made it from San Marcos to SDSU within a thirty-minute commute. She explains that her commutes were usually a much more difficult drive due to the San Diego traffic—even during the 1970s. Business and administration ; Commute ; Commuting ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Palomar College ; San Diego freeways ; San Diego State Univeristy ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Students ; Traffic 700 Career in accounting and real estate Sharon Jenkins describes her career in accounting and real estate. She explains that she began working at an accounting firm part-time the summer after her junior year in high school, and continued working at the firm throughout her education at Palomar College. Jenkins then accepted an internship at IBM in San Diego and worked there for a year while in college, before accepting a full-time position at the company. She stayed at IBM until the early 1990s before leaving the position and becoming a homemaker. Jenkins explains that she later transitioned to the field of real estate after her second daughter graduated from high school. At the time of the interview’s recording, Jenkins has worked in real estate for seventeen years. Accounting ; Accounting firms ; Homemaker ; IBM ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Parenthood ; Real estate ; Realtor ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) 966 Involvement in the San Marcos school board Sharon Jenkins recounts her involvement in the local school district of San Marcos. She first became involved in the local parent groups, parent organizations, and the 1996 School Board Bond effort, which she co-chaired with two other individuals. She then joined the school board, and was an active member from 1998 to 2012. Jenkins also reflects on how she has seen the San Marcos school district change over the years. When she first joined the school board, eight to ten thousand students were enrolled in the district, and at the time of the interview’s recording, she explains that approximately twenty thousand are now enrolled. She also explains that the school board also has to tackle many issues, such as financial issues due to the lack of state funding. Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; School ; School board ; School bonds ; School district ; Small community ; Small town ; State funding ; Students 1239 Reflections on being in leadership Sharon Jenkins reflects on being in a leadership position. She explains that she enjoys working with her colleagues on the school board and its staff. She continues that San Marcos is has a great staff and the school board has its best intentions in mind for its students. She also found the opening of new schools and high school graduations to be a very memorable experiences while in the position. Decision making in leadership ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; School ; School board ; Small community ; Small town ; Staff ; Students 1374 Joining the city council Sharon Jenkins discusses her campaign to join the city council in 2012 and the lessons she learned on the campaign trail. She also discusses the differences between working on the city council and in the school district. She notes that the school district was more complex and dealt with a plethora of issues when compared with the city council. She also explains that the school district and city council both had different needs to which needed attending. City council ; City council campaign ; City council election ; City council representative ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos city council ; School board ; School district ; Small community ; Small town ; Students 1628 The value of the city council for the community Sharon Jenkins reflects on the city council’s value to the community of San Marcos. She explains that the city council does its best to listen to its residents and push for local control. She expresses frustration over state and federal government asserting themselves into local governmental matters. Jenkins is also passionate about continuing efforts to fix and expand infrastructure in the city. Bridges ; City council ; City council representative ; Federal government ; Funding ; Infrastructure ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Roads ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos city council ; Small community ; Small town ; State government ; Traffic 1813 Final thoughts/Closing of interview Sharon Jenkins concludes the interview by discussing the importance of reaching out to others, whether that being staying in contact with friends in the community or reaching out to individuals in other districts and listening to them and responding to their questions. City council ; City council representative ; Colleagues ; Family ; Friends ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Representation in small districts ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Small community ; Small town ; Staying connected Oral history Sharon Jenkins was born in Quincy, Massachusetts, grew up in Scituate, Mass., and moved to Lake San Marcos, California in 1971 where she attended San Marcos High School. She was a business major in college ; after college she worked in the accounting profession for 15 years. Her involvement as a parent volunteer led her to run for San Marcos City School Board where Jenkins served for 14 years. Jenkins was elected to San Marcos City Council in 2012 and will complete her final term in 2024. She is also a Realtor. The interview focuses primarily on her high school years and her experiences serving on San Marcos' School Board and City Council. Tanis Brown: Okay. So, today is February 2nd, 2023, and this is a part of the North County Oral History Initiative. My name is Tanis Brown, and today I will be interviewing Sharon Jenkins. So, hi Sharon. Thanks very much for coming in today. You and I have been friends for a long time, but there are some things about you that I don&#039 ; t really know. So, I&#039 ; d like to find out a little bit more about your San Marcos story. Sharon Jenkins: Right. Thanks for having me, Tanis. This--I&#039 ; m excited you&#039 ; re doing this. Brown: Good. Well, I&#039 ; d like to start from the beginning. Where were you born, Sharon? Jenkins: I was born in Quincy, Massachusetts-- Brown: Oh my gosh. Jenkins: --and I moved from Quincy when I was very young. I don&#039 ; t even know how young, less than five. And I moved to Scituate, Massachusetts. And I lived there until 1971, when we moved to San Marcos. Brown: Okay. So, you came to San Marcos in 1971, and would you still have been going to school at that time? Jenkins: So, yes. I started San Marcos High School in 1971 as a freshman. Brown: Okay. And the school was just ten years old at that time, so-- Jenkins: Yes. Brown: --it was a new school. Jenkins: Yes, very small. Brown: How many students in the--in the graduating class, Sharon? Jenkins: So, I don&#039 ; t remember the number. I would guess maybe less than two hundred. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: I know when we graduated, we could sit on the visitor&#039 ; s side of the bleachers in the old gym. Brown: (chuckles) Jenkins: So, that&#039 ; s how small we were. Brown: Okay. Did you have a football team and everything, and-- Jenkins: We had a football team, yes, yes. Brown: All right. So, any changes between the east coast and coming to the west coast? Jenkins: I think I was so young that I probably didn&#039 ; t understand what those changes were. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: Um, I remembered it--I remembered feeling like it was very, um, --things were very scattered here, and--and not very busy. Brown: Oh, compared to the east coast. Jenkins: Right, right. Brown: Interesting. Um, so other than changing coasts, do you have any other childhood memories that stick out in your mind that maybe you carry forward today, or any traits about yourself? Jenkins: I would say, as far as high school and that era, um, making--making friends that some of them I still have as friends today. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: San Marcos was very small back then. So, um, there was a lot of people connected and, even though we&#039 ; re much larger today, a lot of those connections are still in place. When I moved here there were, I believe, less than 10,000 people in San Marcos. Brown: Wow. That&#039 ; s so cool. And you actually moved to Lake San Marcos when you first came here? Jenkins: Yes, I did. I moved to Lake San Marcos. Um, that&#039 ; s where my parents purchased a house. And my dad was a pilot and commuted to L.A. when he needed to fly. And, um, he decided on Lake San Marcos because he felt that it was such a great, safe community. And he had a friend in Escondido who told him that San Marcos had a new high school and had a very good reputation. So, that&#039 ; s another reason why he--he picked San Marcos. Brown: Okay. Oh, that&#039 ; s interesting. So, Lake San Marcos was kind of an entity unto itself when it was first constructed and was highly touted as a--a kind of upscale community. Did you--did you notice any of that growing up in terms of--of students or residents of San Marcos? Did you always feel yourself a part of the community of San Marcos? Jenkins: Yes, always. So, when I moved there, as I look back, I think there were less than five children living in Lake San Marcos, because it was a retirement community back then. And most of the homes that are there today were not there. It was m--majority was empty lots that homes hadn&#039 ; t been constructed yet-- Brown: Okay Jenkins: --um, along the streets. (nods her head) Brown: Okay. Jenkins: So, I think the big thing I noticed, um, was very few--in fact, I don&#039 ; t eve--I think I only knew one or two--other kids that lived there, but always felt it was a part of San Marcos to me. (nods her head again) Brown: Okay. That&#039 ; s great. Okay. So, just in terms of the overall community of San Marcos back in 1971 and during your high school years, wha--what were the big deals? What was--what was the city like at that time for you growing up? Jenkins: Um, I was--since I was new to the community--I didn&#039 ; t have some of the connections that many of the other kids had that had been through school from however young. Um, so I think some of the connections were um, um, you know, as you made friends, hanging out with those friends, I remember a teacher encouraged my mom, &quot ; Get her involved in something.&quot ; And I think I was on the tennis team for a year. (chuckles) Um, never play tennis. But the whole thing was, you know, the staff at that time was to get kids involved in--in things. Um, Friday night football was a big deal back then and um, um, just hanging out with whatever friends you had. Brown: Mm-hmm. So, in the community, though, did your parents get involved in the community? Were they involved in Kiwanis and Rotary and that kind of thing? Jenkins: No. Brown: Were those organizations available at that time, or-- Jenkins: I don&#039 ; t know. I s--assume so. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: No. They were involved in playing golf. (laughs) Brown: Okay. Okay. And that was a big thing in Lake San Marcos-- Jenkins: Yes! Brown: --to play golf. They had, what, an executive course? Jenkins: I don&#039 ; t think they had the executive course then. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: But they did have the big course, and I&#039 ; m sure that was one of the reasons why my dad selected there, too, because they both played golf. Brown: All right. Jenkins: And I played golf too. My dad taught me--started to teach me, um, when I was about nine. And, um--and so I would go out and play. There was a couple of people--a couple kids at that time, and another gal and I would go out and play periodically. Brown: Okay. So, today San Marcos is fairly well-known for its colleges. We have Palomar Community College and Cal State San Marcos. After graduating from high school, did--did you--you might not of even had those opportunities, although Palomar, I think, was here at that point in time. Where--what did you do after high school, after graduating from high school? Jenkins: So, I graduated from high school and went to Palomar College because it had such a great reputation back then as it does now. I went to Palomar, and then, um, transferred to San Diego State. But it was right around the time--actually, I think that I was going on campus to San Diego, and then as I got closer to finishing--it took me much longer than two years, because I worked. But, as I got closer to finishing, they started to have some remote classes in North County, and I think a couple of classes I went to--one was in the--a middle school in Vista, on a Saturday, I think, and another one was in, um, a business class from an--off of Furniture Row. So, San Diego--so, Cal State San Marcos wasn&#039 ; t here, but they had started to expand some opportunities for the No--North County kids. So, it wasn&#039 ; t a lot of classes, but it was just enough that you could take a couple and not have to commute to San Diego. Brown: All right. Great. So, you finished up at--at San Diego State, and did you have a vocation or an avocation in mind, um, while you were going to college? Jenkins: Business. Brown: Business. Jenkins: Yes. I focused on business administration and accounting at the time. Brown: Okay. And you said you were--you worked your way through college? You were working while you were going to college. Jenkins: I worked while I went to college. I ended up, um--after I left Palomar--I always worked part-time. After I left Palomar, I think I might have started to work full-time and then I took classes at night, and would commute down to San Diego State at night, a couple of nights a week. Brown: Oh. So, you had a busy life, even back then. Jenkins: Yes. Brown: (laughs) Wow, that&#039 ; s great. So, commuting to school--what was driving to San Diego State from San Marcos like? What--how--what was the timeframe? Jenkins: So, I always thought it was a good, um, a good travel time if I could do it in about thirty minutes. (both of them chuckle) Most of the time it was more than that. But it depended, you know. If it was a class that ended at nine o&#039 ; clock, then you could pretty much get home within thirty minutes or so. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: But there definitely were times of the day when it was more difficult to get there, even back then! That would have been in the, um, let&#039 ; s see, probably the late seventies. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: So. And the freeways weren&#039 ; t as big as they are today. Brown: Right. Jenkins: But we didn&#039 ; t have as many cars back then. Brown: Okay. So, then after graduation did you look for employment in, locally, or interested in going someplace else? Jenkins: So, while I was in high school, my first job during high school after my sophomore year was working at Taco Bell in Escondido. And then--um, and then I started my junior year and then I was an aide for one of the high school counselors and he had a neighbor who had a business in Escondido. And he said, &quot ; Sharon, you--this--my neighbor is looking for some work. Why don&#039 ; t you go see if they could--if, you know--apply for a job there.&quot ; And that was the summer after my junior year. So, I worked the summer after my junior year at the company, and then when my senior year started, I was only going half-day. And so, I would go to high school in the morning, and then I would go work in the afternoon. And then I graduated mid-year my senior year. So, I was able to start Palomar and I still worked part-time for the company. And then, while I was going to Palomar, I just continued to work part-time and plan my classes accordingly. So, when I finished college, I conti--started full-time with the company. In fact, I probably started full-time before a graduated from college and finished college at night. I think that&#039 ; s how it went. Brown: Wow. So, you were a working woman early on. Jenkins: Very early. Brown: Yeah. And did you stay in the accounting field for a long time? Jenkins: Yes. Most of my work there was office type work, accounting related work. And then I worked there for about ten years, and then I applied for, while I was in college, I applied for a internship, I guess you will, at IBM in San Diego. And so, I was hired to work part-time. I don&#039 ; t know what it was called exactly, but similar to a internship. And then I worked a year doing that. And then--and then after that year, I started full-time there and I stayed there, um, for probably early 90s. And then--and then I quit so I could stay home with my kids. Brown: All right. Wow. Okay. So, when I first met you, you were involved in real estate. How did that transition happen? Jenkins: So, I think we actually met earlier than that, when Allan and I were on the school board together. Brown: Oh, okay. Jenkins: Okay? Um, and, um, so I--I stayed home with my kids. Did different part-time things. Volunteered a lot in the schools. That&#039 ; s how I met Allan and eventually you. And then as my la--my second daughter was about to graduate from high school, I thought well what am I going to do now? And so then a friend said, &quot ; Why don&#039 ; t you think about becoming a realtor?&quot ; And I never gave it a thought. But, I said, &quot ; Okay, well, I&#039 ; ll check into that.&quot ; And so, I did that and it--it&#039 ; s a way to help people which is what I like to do. And so, it has worked out well. So, I&#039 ; ve been doing that for, mm, probably close to seventeen years. Brown: All right. That&#039 ; s great. Well, you segued right into the kind of second theme of my interview questions and that is your very long career in local government, starting with the school district. And so, my question to you about that is, um, you know, what--what--what inspired you to get involved beyond the local parent organization in the school district here in San Marcos? Jenkins: So, I think being involved in--in the local parent groups actually was my segue into the next part. Because I was involved in different parent organizations. I was involved in the 1996 School Board Bond effort. I co-chaired that with two other people. And then after that, once you volunteer for something, as Dennis well knows, (they both chuckle) you are encouraged to volunteer for more. And one day somebody caught me in one of the school parking lots and said, &quot ; Have you ever running for the school board?&quot ; which I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ve--No.&quot ; And then, so then finally in 1998, Lucy Gross who was a school board member for a long time which even Allan knew well, was leaving the board and she--and she also approached me and said, &quot ; You know, you should think about this because of the involvement with the schools.&quot ; And so--so I was on the school board from 1998 until 2012. Brown: Wow. So, during that time, how much did the school district change in those years? Jenkins: I would say dramatically, more so towards the last half than the beginning. But San Marcos was growing considerably then. I want to say, when I first started, there might have been--I don&#039 ; t know--maybe eight, maybe ten thousand students. I&#039 ; d have to go back and look at that. And now there are cl--close to, you know, approximately twenty [thousand]. So, it was a very growth intensified time, a lot of schools being built, always financial troubles from--due to state funding. But somehow, we got it all done. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And I think during the last, um--you know, during the last five years or so, my term there is just, I think, when dramatic things change. It was always interesting. I was told, and I--I didn&#039 ; t realize this until--until later, but I was told that, um, at different times of an organization, there&#039 ; s different priorities. And sometimes it&#039 ; s a--it&#039 ; s a school building cycle. Sometimes it&#039 ; s a curriculum cycle that you&#039 ; re working to overcome. Sometimes it&#039 ; s a financial cycle that you&#039 ; re working to overcome. And, um, and so as I look back, I realize when I first got on, it was a growth cycle. So, it was building. And then later it became more curriculum focused cycle. All--always--always focused on curriculum, but you--you pick and choose things to make things happen sooner than later. And so, looking back, I--I--I now see what that very intelligent person meant. Brown: So, what was your favorite thing about--or a couple of your favorite things--about being in a leadership position for a school district? Jenkins: I would say my colleagues on the school board and staff. I think--you know, we&#039 ; re supposed to have the vision at a--at a high level, figure out what those goals are. And then it&#039 ; s the staff that makes it happen. And I think San Marcos--both on a school district and city-wide too--has always had great staff. I think we were lucky. And we had school board members that kept their focus on the kids and what was best for the kids. We couldn&#039 ; t always get there as quickly as we wanted, but eventually we would get there. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: I think also the staff and the--the other electeds, but also, um, some of the things that I--I find the most memorable to me are buildings, seeing the new schools open. High school graduations are always great because, you know, it&#039 ; s a huge success for the kids and the--and the staff, to get them to where they were that day. And also, I think the--the two school bonds that we worked on over the years. Those were--that brought such change to the community, both of those. And--and as an elected official, sometimes it&#039 ; s difficult when you have to make really difficult decisions. But it&#039 ; s also gratifying when you--when you realize, okay, I made the right decision. It&#039 ; s difficult, but I made the right decision. Brown: And you come out on the--on the other end of it feeling really positive. Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brown: Yeah. That&#039 ; s good. So, from the school board, then you put your name in to be a city council representative and that comes with a whole &#039 ; nother group of--of learning curves and--and, uh, opportunities and challenges. So, any differences between the s--what you were dealing with on the school board versus the city council? Jenkins: I would say, um, a couple differences. The--the school district had, probably when I started, maybe, I don&#039 ; t know, maybe not even a thousand employees and less than ten schools. Whereas I think the school district is more complex with a lot of the issues they have to deal with. I think the city is--just has a smaller scale to it. And the needs are--you&#039 ; re looking at different needs than what the school district is looking at. You know, we have, say, two hundred and some employees and many facilities. But those facilities are, in my mind, are less complicated than a school facility. Brown: Oh. Interesting. Wow. So, what was the first year you were elected to the city council? Jenkins: 2012. Brown: So, 2012. So, there was no break between the school district and moving right into city council. Jenkins: No. I was mid-term-- Brown: Okay. Jenkins: --in 2012. So, I had two years into my four-year term. And there was a sitting councilmember who wasn&#039 ; t running. And so, again, I had a--a couple people approach me and say, &quot ; You know, you should think about this.&quot ; And I said, &quot ; I know nothing about any of that.&quot ; I said, &quot ; I haven&#039 ; t been on the planning commission. How do I learn all that.&quot ; (both of them chuckle) And so about maybe--maybe about a year, maybe s--not quite six months before the election, I started to talk to as many people as I could to see, you know, what their thoughts were. We, at that point, had lost redevelopment money to the state. The state clawed back, I think it was twenty-some million dollars of redevelopment money, and I had a couple people say, &quot ; Why would you even want to go into that because, you know, there&#039 ; s a huge situation going on here.&quot ; But I just decided that, after talking to a number of people, that I felt I had good support, and I thought, you know, I can--I can learn this. I can do this. I had a lot of people that said, you know, &quot ; Come back and talk to me whenever you need to.&quot ; And so, I did it. Brown: Yeah. Were the--was the campaigning different between the school board and the city council? Jenkins: Um, not--not drastically back then. To me it was citywide and to me the school board at that point in time was also citywide. So, I had--I think I had some name recognition with the parents and then because of being involved in different things in the district, then that--I think that gave me a leg up. Brown: Mm-hmm. Okay. Jenkins: So, it&#039 ; s about--yeah, I would say, at that point in time, it was about the same. Brown: Okay. So, another continuing growth effort in our city over the time that you have been serving on the city council. So, I&#039 ; d like to ask you--in that time that you&#039 ; ve been on which is like ten years going on a few more years--so, um, looking back on that last ten years, what are you--I mean--wha--what do you see as the most value that--that the city council and you, yourself, have been involved in for the--for the community? Jenkins: Um, I would say doing our best to listen to all residents. We can&#039 ; t always do what residents want us to do. That can be a little frustrating because they don&#039 ; t realize--al--some of what we do is out of our control. We really push for local control here in San Marcos so that we make our own decisions. But more and more state, mainly, and federal is--is telling us we have to do things differently. Or we have to adhere to certain things. And, you know, sometimes we may feel like that&#039 ; s not the best thing for our community, but we don&#039 ; t have a choice. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: Or we&#039 ; d be sued. Brown: So, if you had a magic wand today, is there anything in San Marcos that you would change or--or improve that would make a huge difference or, uh, for our future? Jenkins: I can&#039 ; t think of anything right now off the top of my head. Um, I would like to see us, um--traffic is always a big concern in San Marcos. So, I would say we have continuing efforts to work on that. It&#039 ; s not necessarily all about expanding roads. Some of it&#039 ; s infrastructure and--and--and other things. So, I would say, um, just trying to keep working through what we can in that area and we&#039 ; re working on it. We&#039 ; re spending lots of money on it. I can&#039 ; t think of anything particular. We&#039 ; re--I&#039 ; m excited to have the bridges done in a few months. That has been something that was talked about long before I got on the council. So, I think that would be a--a big plus to the community to get that traffic flow. Brown: That&#039 ; s great. So, Sharon, I would like to kind of conclude this interview with giving you an opportunity to just--if there&#039 ; s anything we haven&#039 ; t covered. I--I do have one more question that I kind of have been thinking about in terms of my-- Knowing you for so many years, one of the things that I appreciate so much about you is your continually willingness and outreach to all the people that you&#039 ; ve known for so long, which is, I&#039 ; m sure, a growing number every year. How do you--how do you continue to keep in contact with this growing number of friends and colleagues that you have grown over the course of your time here in San Marcos? Jenkins: Um, let&#039 ; s see. I don&#039 ; t know. How do any of us do that? I think you just make an effort to--to get together with people and have meet-ups and, um, see them at different events. I try to, when things are going on within the city, I try to email people that I know would have an interest in that. And almost always I get emails back saying, &quot ; Wow. You know, we really appreciate that, because we don&#039 ; t--we don&#039 ; t have access to that. And so, we&#039 ; re glad to hear about something.&quot ; Just, you know, again just doing your best to try to reach out to people. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And--and see them when you can. Brown: Uh-huh. Well, I certainly think that makes you a very effective leader in our community in terms of keeping in t--touch with the way people feel. And I appreciate it. Jenkins: Thank you. I think another thing that&#039 ; s important too is, um, as things have changed in the recent years, I think it is important for--for future councils and--and to understand that even though we&#039 ; re in voting districts, I think it&#039 ; s important that we represent all of San Marcos. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: Um, I&#039 ; m in a particular district but I reach out to people in other districts all the time. Listening is the best thing we can do. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And responding to questions. Brown: Yeah. So, in closing, is there anything else you&#039 ; d like to share with us that we haven&#039 ; t covered today, but you&#039 ; d like our audience to hear. Jenkins: Let&#039 ; s see. I would say that I&#039 ; m just very pleased that I&#039 ; ve been able to live in one town for so long. Growing up I, you know, you always think, &quot ; Oh, I just want to get out of here.&quot ; But I&#039 ; m glad that I&#039 ; ve--I&#039 ; ve been here as long as I have. I&#039 ; m glad my daughters--one lives here. Her--her two children are going to San Marcos schools. In fact, one of them is going to Discovery Elementary and I was one of the founding PTO board members of that. So, that&#039 ; s kind of fun to go back and see that school. And then my other daughter&#039 ; s nearby in San Diego. So, I think being able to see them enjoy what&#039 ; s going on here in North County--that, things that, you know, I enjoyed growing up. And they&#039 ; re now realizing that--that it&#039 ; s a good place. Brown: Absolutely. Jenkins: Yeah. Brown: All right. Jenkins: Thank you for having me. Brown: Well, thank you very much for your time today and this concludes our interview for the North County Oral History Initiative. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. 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Interview, February 2, 2023 Description An account of the resource Sharon Jenkins was born in Quincy, Massachusetts, grew up in Scituate, Mass., and moved to Lake San Marcos, California in 1971 where she attended San Marcos High School. She was a business major in college; after college she worked in the accounting profession for 15 years. Her involvement as a parent volunteer led her to run for San Marcos City School Board where Jenkins served for 14 years. Jenkins was elected to San Marcos City Council in 2012 and will complete her final term in 2024. She is also a Realtor. The interview focuses primarily on her high school years and her experiences serving on San Marcos' School Board and City Council. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-33 Subject The topic of the resource Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos Local government -- California -- San Marcos Public administration -- California -- San Marcos School boards -- California -- San Marcos Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-02-02 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sharon Jenkins Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tanis Brown Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Sharon Jenkins Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Community history North County Oral History Initiative Politics and governance Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/9173acfb4043d98a992ece390b686936.pdf 745685fd9a5c04a10e7e266af852c2c4 PDF Text Text ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Sean Visintainer: Hello, this is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Major General Anthony Jackson for the California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History initiative. Today is March 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Major General Jackson, thank you for interviewing with us today. Anthony Jackson: Yeah, you're welcome. It's a, it's a privilege, kind of a, an honor, I guess I should say. Visintainer: These are, uh, the favorite part of my job that I get to do. So it's a real pleasure to have you. I forgot to mention that I will take some notes as we're interviewing, just so you know. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: So I can circle back to questions if I have them. Jackson: All right. Visintainer: Uh, things like that. And I wanted to just start off by asking you about your childhood and your formative years. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: Um, where were you born? Jackson: I was born at Madigan General Hospital in Fort Lewis, Washington. My father was a career soldier. So I was the fourth of his children. Uh, let's see. And being a military brat, you grow up in a lot of different places. But, uh, yeah, my dad, uh, he lied about his age and lied about his parentage to join the army shortly after Pearl Harbor. He met his, my mother in, May of [19]42, and married her in June of the same year. And then he went overseas to Europe for, for three years. In those days they went for the duration and came home to see my, uh, oldest sister was three years old when he got home. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 1 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And then, my older brother was born in [19]46, and then Matt, and then Don was born in [19]48, and then I was born in [19]49, and the Korean War broke out so my mother got a break. Visintainer: Yeah. <laughs>. Jackson: And dad came home in [19]52, and <laughs> Clay was born in [19]53. And then Dana was born in, uh, [19]56, and Tawnya was born in [19]57. I guess they're Irish twins. And that was the last of the kids. But if you notice, I was seven. The girls, Betty is the oldest, and Tanya the youngest. And then there's five boys, and I'm the top dead-center. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, and, uh, highly competitive sports-oriented family with the boys. And, uh, I guess I should say that the main thing in that growing up was, I was kind of taking notes and reviewing my own life a couple weeks ago; that I started school in Germany, did kindergarten and first grade in Germany, and then my dad got stationed in Los Angeles. So I, uh, <Visintainer coughs> spent the second grade in Los Angeles. Then I spent the third grade-- He got sent someplace else, spent the third grade in Houston, Texas, his hometown. And then I spent four through the seventh grade in Colorado at two different schools. And then back to Texas for the eighth <laughs>. And then in the middle of the ninth grade, a couple months into the ninth grade, we moved to California in 1963 as uh, and all my teachers in Texas were excited. I was going to such a great state for academics. And so I got here in October [19]63 as a ninth grader, as the brand new kid talking funny, dressing, funny and-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Fighting my way through the ninth grade. But, so I was fortunate to go to high school in Oakland. You know that they have three-year high school. So all my high school years, I was the first of my brothers and sisters. If you'll see those days, you'll see that they got ripped off <laughs> and didn't go to one single high school, my older one. So I was the first one that kind of got planted at one place. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then, um, and that was really good because counselors and everybody started prepping me for college. Uh, Mrs. [Phyllis] Collier wouldn't let me go. She constantly -- she was my counselor -constantly tried to get me into college prep classes, which she did, and make me take the SATs. You're not going to the state wrestling finals unless you take the SATs. And, uh, and that was a good experience. Yeah. Football became my, uh, my great love of sports, although played a lot of baseball, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 2 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 basketball, and all those kinds of things, wrestled in high school. But I got a football scholarship, offered several scholarships. I was lucky to be... I was born at exactly the right time. You know, the high, the civil rights movement, the, all the sacrifices of so many people during the Civil Rights Movement. When I graduated from high school in 1967, universities were looking for me in terms of race, in terms of athleticism, in terms of grades and SATs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I just happened to be born at that exact right juncture of the civil rights movement and who could get that young African American into the university. But I took a football scholarship <laughs>, because I knew that was just based on pure athleticism or whatever. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: But it was still important. That was, the doors were opening wide, and I just happened to be the right age, born at right time as well. So that was my kind of through high school, uh, living in a lot of different places. Three years in Germany, four years in Colorado, off and on in Texas. And so, um, with mom and dad always providing a good solid family basis, and my mother was incredibly, like, I still look back and, you know here I was a high-ranking officer, [inaudible] and having two kids was expensive. <laughs> Here my dad was a sergeant in the army, not an officer. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And he, and somehow she managed to put together great meals that we were all healthy and athletic and all that. And I still wonder how she did it. It was pretty-- she was pretty fantastic. She sewed our clothes and did all kinds of things that, you know sometimes I see the kids walking around here with patches and torn jeans and all that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That would've been so embarrassing for my family. <laughter> We were, we were poor, you know, <laughs> and here these kids, I guess middle class kids that, that wanted to look like that <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 3 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: We would've been totally embarrassed. And mom would sew up those torn spots. Visintainer: You said she was, uh, she managed to make great meals for everybody in your family. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: I was curious, is there a, is there a, a particular meal or food that really evokes memories of your childhood? Jackson: I would say that we ate a lot of cooked cereal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, things like cornmeal and oatmeal and grits and yeah. And, um, it was because it was inexpensive and filled with nutrition. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I presume and it filled you up, you know? And so, uh, yeah. And you never turned your back on your plate. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Spaghetti and meatballs, you turn your back <laughs>. One of those meatballs was gonna be missing you know, <laughs>. I mean, you never missed dinner. You never missed a meal. You were always home. You didn't wear a watch. You didn't have a watch, but you knew what dinnertime was. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 4 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And you knew, you knew that, uh, you know, to be home for dinner. Um, so my mother was a, just a great cook. And, uh, and I just remember that there was always a meal, uh, sometimes they were pretty creative. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Like, she would make syrup out of, uh, out of sugar and water, and she'd just melt it down. And that would be the syrup for your pancakes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, she didn't, orange juice, you know, if the can said "mix three cans of water with this," she'd probably mix four, four or five you know, stretching things out. She could do that. But, uh... Man, she-Yeah, you would never turn down one of her meals. I would just say that, uh, everything she cooked was worthy of eating. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Except turnips. <laughter> Visintainer: So that was the, that was the vegetable. That was-Jackson: Yeah, that was the one. I mean I liked all the other green vegetables and stuff like that. But I never really, I was kind of amazed when I was being recruited. I was being recruited to play football at UC [University of California] Berkeley. And, um, they brought me into the Bear's Lair, Bear's Lair, their kind of campus restaurant. And they put a salad in front of me, a green salad with just lettuce-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I said, what <laughs>, what am I supposed to do with this? Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 5 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Because I'd never had a lettuce salad that I could ever have recalled. So I had to watch, uh what the coaches who were recruiting me were doing with that <laughs>, 'cause our meals were substantial. And [inaudible] they were designed to fill you up, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: As a kid more than anything. Yeah. Visintainer: Did, uh, did you live on bases? Jackson: Yeah. We s-- you know, um... We, we, we lived on and off base. The military, it wasn't until my time in the military, the military used to be when you got stationed overseas, families had to move off the base housing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And it was in my times in, I think in the, uh, I want to say in the 1980s, that even though your, uh, spouse was overseas, you could stay on base, uh, at least in the Marine Corps. But we lived, um, sometimes we'd stay a while with relatives. But my mother was from Salt Lake City, Utah. And so we would sometimes stage there for a couple months before we went overseas or before we went to California or something like that. And, but, let's see, on-- in Germany, yeah, all that time was on military base. Colorado was four years on military base. Oakland, the first couple of years we lived on a military base, but my dad also kept a little home in Houston, Texas. And a couple of times we would move into that house. And uh, but when he retired from the Army when I was a senior in high school, he bought a home in Oakland. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: And that was my senior year so that was the first year I had moved up in the pecking order to get a bedroom by myself. 'Cause we usually lived in a three-bedroom house, one [bedroom] for mom and dad, one for the two girls and then the last one, <laughs> was either for my older brother, if it was small. And we, like in Colorado the older brother had a room, and then the four younger ones slept in the basement. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 6 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: In bunk beds, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then finally when I was a senior, I got a room to myself for a few months when <laughs>, you know, so, um--But we settled, the family settled in Oakland. And that's where my mother and father lived until they passed away. And, uh, they-- so it was, uh, the military bases are sort of protected in some ways from-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: A little bit different than society, you know. And then even as I went through my career, we stayed on bases sometimes. Not always. Visintainer: Uh, you said that the military bases are protected and different from society. Jackson: Yeah. Its-- They're, they're a little bit different-Visintainer: Could you explain-Jackson: Because first of all, I'll never forget, like when we were stationed in Hawaii, and my kids were like six months old when we got there, and two years old. So they were pretty young. But by the time they were there, we were there for a year or two. The military police knew where your kids belong. They knew what house. If they saw your kid running amuck someplace, "Yeah, maybe you had to go back to your yard," you know, because-- And so from that standpoint, and military police are a different sort of presence. They're more like the old neighborhood police officers. They're Marines essentially. And now they have some civilians that do that on military bases. The other thing is: all your neighbors, you're all in the same boat <laughs>. You know, you're gonna say, although, you know, you have sometimes segregated housing based on rank. Um, um, and they [military bases] have their elementary school, they have their grocery stores. They have their equivalent of a Walmart or 7-Eleven. They have their gas stations, their fire department, the hospital. So you have a city, literally, or maybe even several towns, like as big as Camp Pendleton is, there are several schools in like the northern part. Once you get to high school, uh, and junior high, you go to San Clemente Public Schools. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 7 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: On the, on the eastern side, where I lived on the base, or southeastern side, you go to Fallbrook schools and on the south side of the base, you go to Ocean-- your kids go to Oceanside schools. So, uh, but, um, everybody's employed, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: There is a hierarchy, you know. If you're-- That is respected. Kids stop when they're hearing the national anthem is being played every morning at eight o'clock. If they're at the playground in the morning at eight o'clock, or when the flag's coming down in the evening at sunset, they'll stop. And you'll see kindergarteners stand in position of attention, while getting off the swings and the teeter-totter or whatever they call them now. And uh, it's kind of unique. Even my Great Dane used to know to stop and sit when the national anthem was being played <laughs>, you know, just-- So it's a, and race is erased. Mostly. I mean we're all a product of American society. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Um, um, and it's more, I would say it's more of a meritocracy in terms of what you experience and how you experience, and your rank and your uniform automatically entitles you to X amount of respect. And everybody rec-- and that includes the general has to respect the most junior person, you know. And so uh, you're somewhat protected and there's rules that are, that are pretty strict, you know? And even the, even the nurses in the emergency room got to know my sons <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "Hey, Brian, what are you in here for this time?" You know <laughs>. He's a skateboarder. Bashed his skull, skinned his face, you know, all of that stuff. And they know him. "Uh, okay. You're a Jackson kid. All right. Okay." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Do you, do you think that that experience was similar for your father? Jackson: No my dad, he lived a whole different world. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 8 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's one of the stage setters. When he, when he was 17 years old, trying to get into the military in 1942, Marines didn't accept Blacks into the military. It wasn't until a year later, you know. And he lived in Texas, you know, grew up in Texas. And in his youth and for a long time, even through a portion of my youth, Texas was one of the most violent places to be African American. I mean I had a, I had one of my Marines, a master gunnery sergeant, a very senior enlisted Marine, who was my senior enlisted advisor. And he's a Texan, African American. And his father was lynched in Texas. And so what's your, um-- You know, so there's, there's, there's only a generation or two that separates you from that kind of conduct. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And when my dad joined the Army, it was segregated. Matter of fact, he was stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City, 'cause that's where one of the last of the Buffalo Soldiers were stationed at, at, at, um, even at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century, the Buffalo Soldiers had been stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City. And so when they started bringing in African Americans into the US Army for World War II, that became a place where they trained. And so they didn't have a USO [United Service Organization], they had a USO for white soldiers, but they didn't even have a USO for Black soldiers. So in creating a USO for Black soldiers, now they recruited my mother <laughs>, you know, to be one of the hostesses. And that's how they met. And within two weeks they were married. Geez. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they stayed married, you know. Um, so. And dad, I am sure when I see, you know, I think he was extraordinarily smart, extraordinarily clever. And you had to be more clever to survive, I think, in those days, because there were a lot of racial booby traps that you could walk into. And I think that, um, I don't know all of the history of that, but he should have been, with the number of years he spent in, 24 years, he should have been a higher rank in most circumstances. And I won't recall what the family's story is as to why, but I have pictures of him at a higher rank. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then he retired at another rank, lowered, 10 years later, you know. So he was, so there was an incident that occurred, I think, with my older brother, Matt. And he was, an officer had bumped him on his bicycle and knocked him to the ground and knocked a tooth out, and when my dad was called to the scene, this is more family lore, the officer used the N-word in referring to my, my brother. And the officer was white, and my dad reflexively hit him. And he was a master sergeant at the time. And, uh, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 9 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 this was when we lived in Germany. And my dad was a prize fighter too. He was really good. At one time he was, uh, rated in the world and he was an alternate on the 1948 Olympic team as a light heavyweight. And, um, and so, uh... But the army liked him enough to keep him, but they had to do something. And so he became reduced in rank by one and then permanently put in that rank. Jackson: And he stayed in that rank for another, I want to say twelve years, which is not normal. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Even today or yesteryear, that wouldn't have been normal. So they liked him, but they [inaudible]. So he paid a price that I could-- I didn't pay. And when I joined the Marine Corps, <laughs>, I'll never forget what him saying, "Why did you want to join that redneck outfit?" Because remember, in [19]42, they wouldn't take, they took a lot of, and it was [19]43, they had their first [Black] officer, they had their first [Black] pilot in about 1950, first general African American in 1981, Frank Petersen. So it's uh, it was kind of a, you know, my, my my answer to him was, if not me, who? Somebody has to be. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I was not the first but I was one of the few at the time that came in. And General Petersen leading the way, of course. But yeah, dad had a different life. Mom had a different life. She, I mean education, that was the key difference. You know, is that I was fortunate my mother and father were both high school grads and both of them believed in the power of education. So that was, I think it was really vital to the development of all of us. And then coming to California, which when I came here, it was the number one best school system, public school system in the nation. And I don't know-- If I understand, it doesn't rank very high now, but when I came here, the, you know, from the high school to the community colleges, to the state colleges and state universities, uh, it couldn't be better. So another lucky break for Tony Jackson. Visintainer: Yeah. <Jackson laughs> Um, you mentioned your dad grew up in Texas. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And he had kept a house there for quite a while. Jackson: Right. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 10 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Was he particularly, uh, happy when he got stationed in Houston? Jackson: You know, that's something that I would've been too young. He was, he wasn't stationed in Houston. He was stationed in another-- at, uh, Fort Hood, which is outside [Houston]. I don't think that-- he never expressed that. And I was too young if he, if he emoted it to my mother, you know? That was, that would've been grown-up talk back in those days. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But Houston was segregated. It was, the schools were segregated. It was kind of ironic because I'd lived on army bases. I'd done most of my-- Up until the time we moved to Texas, when I was in the third grade, I did kindergarten, first grade in Germany at integrated school, at the military school on base. And then we came out to California. But that was a short stay. But I did second grade in integrated schools. Then all of a sudden, in third grade, I'm in this town and the part of town where dad had a house, everybody's Black, the policeman's Black, the pharm is Black, the teachers and principals, they're all Black. And that was the first, you know, uh, 1958. And, uh, it was, uh, it was very interesting. Corporal punishment, <laughs>. That's the first time I met that one too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Where the teachers could paddle you? Yeah. You, they, they, they still did that. I remember getting my hand paddled because my writing was so poor <laughs>. Um, but, um... So we moved there [Houston] because he did not want us probably to live in the part of Texas where that base was, and close to relatives. He had a, uh, his, his half-sister lived there, the aunt that helped raise him lived in Houston. And so, and his father lived in Houston. And so, uh, we lived there just a half mile or so from his sister and my aunt, Juanita. And so, uh... And he never gave any indication that he wanted, um, wanted to live there permanently in Houston. You know, I mean, the movie theaters, in those days, you had to sit in the balcony, even the beaches were s-- you know, they had a rope. This was for white people. This was for Black people. Don't cross the rope. The drinking. I remember as a 13 year-old doing a sit-in, in the eighth grade, when we moved back there the second time, the civil rights movement was pretty churned up. And young people, high school, college were doing sit-ins at, uh, at the drug stores that didn't allow you to sit at the soda fountains. You might be able to buy something there, but don't sit down at the counter. And I remember myself from a couple of my eighth and ninth grade buddies, we decided, we were waiting for a bus, and we wanted a RC Cola and a moon pie. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 11 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And we walked into the local drugstore to buy 'em, and we decided we were gonna sit at the lunch counter, like all these kids were doing around the nation. So we did our little sit-in, and they, this big old guy comes out from somewhere in the warehouse, and he's pounding on a billy club, like, "Hmm, what are you kids doing?" But he didn't say anything to us, just the, the waitress behind the counter. She was very nervous trying to get us to get up. And we looked over and saw him and just waved. And then our bus came and we walked out. But it was our little, that was our little act of defiance. And every now and then, you'd have to say if not me who? And so we sat at a lunch counter for a while, you know. Visintainer: So I had seen it in another interview. You'd referenced this, uh, lunch counter sit-in. Uh, didn't go into detail. And so I wanted to ask you a few questions about it. So it was, uh, it was totally spontaneous? You were-Jackson: Yeah. It was spontaneous. We, it was, it was in the news. People were doing it in Virginia, in Memphis, and, you know, and it was a, you knew there was a kind of a hazard you could end up, you know, uh... in jail or something, you know. But we just, I think there's been a couple of times where I've been involved in civil rights protests, but where you just have to do something, you know. I mean, I mean, you just-- I watched my older sister, probably one of the greatest acts of defiance that I've ever seen: my older sister, Betty, she's 80 years old yesterday, and she's just as tough as she was when she was. But I was riding a bus with her in Houston, and this was in the fifties too, so it had to be about [19]58. And we were riding across town, heading home, and we, we sat right in front of the bus. Whether she was thinking, you know... You got to, she's, she's a pretty feisty little-- and then she would've only been about 13 or 14, and I would've been third grade. And, so we sat in the front of the bus, and the bus driver stopped, and the bus was crowded, and he wanted-- bus driver stopped and came out, told her she had to get up, go back of the bus and let these white people sit down. And I'm like, "Hmm." I'm only nine years old. So I'm like, hmm, this big old guy is <Jackson gestures>. And then she refused to move. And, um... And then he balled up his fist and he threatened her, and she refused to move. And, uh, and she just sat there, and then he had to go drive that bus <laughs>, and he left her alone the rest of the ride. She never budged. Visintainer: That's very courageous. Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the way she is. And so you, you know, I've seen, and, you know you grew up with those pictures on tv, the Birmingham and all that stuff, and Little Rock and, bombings and kids with-- and so you knew that there was this tension. But like I tell people, and I gave a speech the other day for Black History. I was always a person that took literally the words of the, the, the preamble to the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Gettysburg Address. And I remember I had to memorize the preamble in the Gettysburg Address and the first couple of paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence when I was in segregated schools in Houston, Texas, in the ninth grade. And I took those words literally. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 12 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: And I looked at my dad's service, and he had obviously paid a, you know, paid for his citizenship, wearing that uniform for 24 years. And so I always have had the feeling and, uh, that, "Hey, if you're, if you're better than me, that means you can whip me in the football field or wrestling, or you can beat me on the spelling bee or the math bee or something like that. But you don't automatically get that <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That's not an automatic. <laughs> I walk through the door like you walk through the door, and then we'll see how it goes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, and I guess that's, I even, uh, even in my own career, I kept that same kind of attitude. And you know, and I've got deep roots that in terms of where my family comes from, especially on my mother's side. My wife does these great genealogies. And, I actually book brought the book that she has kind of put together. Rather than just a photo album, she puts together genealogical albums, and they're kind of cool. Visintainer: Nice. Jackson: I'll show you at some point if you want to see it. Visintainer: Yeah, I'd love to. Jackson: Yeah. But, so, but, you know. One of the things I do tell people, sometimes younger people is that, we like to say that we're all born equal. And that's a kind of an idealistic sort of thing. But if your mother was a drug addict and you were born addicted, you're not the same as the guy who's like, my kids, you know, their dad was already an officer, and already was financially stable, their mother was healthy, a registered dietician, and what she did during her pregnancy is very different than what this-- And so the kids start out equal in terms of under whatever your religion is, under your god's eye, maybe they're equal, but in terms of what the world's offering 'em right now, real different. Okay. And so things like race-- and so I say, "Everybody's born with a backpack, and in that backpack is X amount of rocks." And it's a little bit different, what the weight is at birth. Now, as you go through life, you can take out a rock or you can add a rock. Some of 'em are based on choices of, of your own choice. And some of 'em are Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 13 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 based on family choices or just accidents. And race is one of those things that can either be, um, a rock, a heavy rock in your pack. Or it can lighten your load. And that's one of the ironic things about it is for my dad, it was probably a heavier rock, but for me, it lightened the load. It might have actually lightened the load, you know? And so as we-- As you-- And so as a result of that, his carrying a heavy rock and me having much lighter load, I owe him something. But more than that, I owe the next generation something too for that. And, you know, does that make sense? Visintainer: Yeah, that's a wonderful analogy. And something I've never heard phrased that way. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I think it's, it's uh, befitting somebody who was in the military to talk about <Jackson laughs> weight and backpacks. Jackson: Yeah, right, yeah. <laughter>, I guess, so <laughs>. Visintainer: Did you come up with the analogy when you were in the military,? Jackson: Yeah. Yeah, probably. I did. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. I was in you know, it is, uh, it's -- life is like that. Now, and you, and a lot of times, and once you get to be a certain age, and I was telling this young man that I met, he was very bold. He was in the high school, junior ROTC [Reserve Officers Training Corps] at an event a month or so ago, and he walks right up to me having, I was introduced as a general. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And here's this, you know, maybe 14 year-old kid. He was in the ninth grade. And I said, "You know what?" I said, uh, I asked him about his grades and all that. I said kind of, "You're lightening your load. You're an honor student. You wear that uniform well. You're doing athletics, keep doing that. Everything you do, it counts from the ninth grade on. I mean, that's when you're getting your GPA counts, you getting your PSATs, you're doing all these kinds of things that people are gonna judge your next opportunity on -- post high school." And says, "So, you young man are lightening your load, you know, so keep it going." Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 14 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Yeah. So it is kind of a, yeah. I guess it's military <laughs> speak. Can't help it <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Um, I just had one follow up question about, uh, about your drugstore sit-in. Well, actually, I guess I had a couple. What was the drugstore? Jackson: You know, I'm trying to remember the, because I don't want to-- we had a lot of Walgreens in that part of the country. So I think it was Walgreens at the time, that, uh, it was right at our bus stop. And, uh, yeah. Then they, they became quite a target for students, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's a, nowadays they don't even have the soda fountains in the drugstore like they did in those days, you know? But yeah, I'm pretty, I'm about 90% sure it was Walgreens. Because number one, because I don't remember any other of the drug stores that were there. And it was, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But-Visintainer: Did, uh, did you ever tell your parents? Jackson: Yeah. Well, at that time, dad was someplace else. I think dad was stationed in close to the North Pole in Greenland. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Yeah. And so we were in Houston for that stay. And, um... And I probably told my mother. When I was that [inaudible] age... I really, it was hard for me to imagine living beyond eighteen. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We lived in Houston. You know, we lived-- we were bused to school past the white high school and junior high into what you might call the ghetto. Fifth Ward in Houston. And it was nicknamed "Bloody Fifth" for good reason, because somebody was getting killed kind of routinely. It was a very violent part of Houston, Texas. And, uh, my junior high and eighth and ninth grade was in Fifth Ward. And my older brothers and sister, they went to Phyllis Wheatley [High School]. I went to E.O. Smith [Junior High] which was named after a African American poet. And, I was probably in a fight, like... I mean, here I was this Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 15 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 guy that didn't have an accent. And I was marked, even my teacher, I remember my English teacher mocking my, uh, "trying to talk like a Kennedy," she told me. She told the whole class, 'cause I was reading something and she stopped me. And she, "What are you trying to talk like a Kennedy?" I said, "This is the way we talk in my family." I didn't know this was any different, but yeah, coming to the south, you're talking different and you don't have their accent. And, uh, and so I was kind of a prime target for a while. And yeah. And fortunately I played football and you know, and I had two big bad older brothers. And so, but it was like-- you know, you had to fight. And then right in the middle of ninth grade, I moved to Oakland. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Which hardly <laugh>, is just that much better. <Jackson holds up fingers about an inch apart, laughs> But that was only two fights. So that was quick and easy. And fortunately we were all trained to box and stuff like that, so it turned out all right. But really when I was fourteen, fifteen, I thought eighteen would be, "Yeah. Eighteen's about right." You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so you, you, you were already, you know, so when I say I'm <laughs> seventy-three, you know, I'm a happy camper. <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: Exceeded expectations. <laughs>. Yeah. Visintainer: Um, I was curious about when your, when your father was deployed, you said he was deployed to Korea and was he deployed in World War II? Jackson: He was in World War II, but I was not even born, and so the war, he wasn't deployed. He had seven kids by the time Vietnam, so the Army wouldn't send him. You know, that would've been quite a burden. So he did not, well, he served during the Vietnam War in the early stages, he never deployed to Vietnam. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 16 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 The family member that got deployed to Vietnam was my older brother, Matt. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: He was, he was drafted. Uh, and yeah, the way it worked out was that my older sister had graduated from high school. I ended up being the first one to graduate from college, just 'cause my older sister, it wasn't the norm or the expectation. And she had gotten married and had a kid, so, and she's probably as smart or smarter than every one of us. And then Matt, my older brother, there wasn't the financials in the family and he had gone to [Jackson makes chopping motion with hand] four. Different. High schools. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Every year. And so, although he's a better athlete than I ever was, he was never recognized in one spot, scouted out by universities or anything. So he ended up going to Chico State [California State University, Chico] a year later on an English literature scholarship. Um, and because he was a year behind his peers, he didn't have the college credits necessary to avoid the draft. And so he got drafted. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And then he goes in the army, goes to Vietnam and gets really some disease and maybe even Agent Orange. Uh, he-- affected him very badly over there. And so he was medically evacuated from Vietnam to San Francisco. There was a big army hospital in San Francisco and eventually discharged, got his GI bill, went back to college, got his B.A., Got his master's degree, and became a dean of students up at Butte [California] Community College. So he lived a really good life. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Great kids, two outstanding kids. And then a terrific wife, Billie. Billie passed away a couple years ago, but she's just been selected, gonna have a big induction ceremony through the Chico State Hall of Fame. And so she, and here's his daughter is the CEO, Joy is the CEO. It's not the GRE but there's another graduate record thing, you know, and so Matt did well, so. Don, my older brother, short time in the Air Force, booted him out for whatever he did wrong <laughs>, you know, but I'm the only one that made it a career [inaudible]. So, uh, um, yeah. But, but mom was always that glue. Just like my wife Sue is the glue for my boys and who did most of the child raising. I had this big strong boxer-soldier dad that I really looked up to and was my lifetime hero. But mom was actually doing the hard work. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 17 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: And probably the same thing in my family in terms of, you know, dad's a Marine and a officer and doing his thing and going away and, and, but the military spouses who get left behind, they do a lot of the child raising, set the standards. And so when people say thank you for your service, they really ought to be talking to the spouses. <laughs> Visintainer: Well, and that's something I was kind of curious about in that, when, when somebody's deployed, and if there's, I guess this is kind of a complicated question that I'm formulating as I go along, so I apologize if it gets a little jumbled, but when somebody's deployed, like in your father's time, um, were there support services involved with the Army to help out, to help out the parents that were staying and raising children? Or were they more informal in nature? Jackson: They were very, very, very informal. Not, and I, quite frankly, I can't-- I can't say I have memories of during my father and mother's time that they had the support services which are ingrained in the services now. And even when I came in, to be honest, in [19]75, the military's attitude, the Marine Corps' attitude was probably, well if the, if the Marine Corps wanted you to have a, wanted you to have a spouse they’d have put her in your, in your sea bag when they issued you the gear. Was that in there? Okay. <laughs> And that was probably the attitude. It wasn't until the eighties that the Navy and the Marine Corps, and I'm not quite sure when the Army, but I'm sure about the same time with them, we started putting together really substantial programs. And first it, it revolved around volunteers and-- but organized in what they call the Key Volunteer Program. And in the Navy it was the Ombudsman Program. And, and, and that, and that was in the eighties. And in, in the, in the, um, 2000s, as we were getting more involved in the Middle East, they actually started hiring family counselors, Members that take, they literally took the place, for each battalion, they would have professional kind of family counselors. And so, and they still had the Key Volunteers, but then they paid people and they had, uh, it was presumed prior to that, that the wives, an officer's wife, the senior officer's wife, would take the lead whether she was-- wanted to or not. It was, it was presumed that that would happen or the senior enlisted wife would team up with her and they would take care of all the younger ones and all that. And there were just some women who were not, you know, not that social or did not want to do that, or were-- wasn't in their personality. So there was a lot. When I was a young commanding officer, a company, I knew if I was over in the Far East in Japan or something and with my whole company and Corporal Ramos' wife was about ready to have a baby here at Camp Pendleton I'd call my wife, buy some flowers for Corporal Ramos' wife, put his name on 'em and take 'em over to the base hospital and make sure she knows that he's thinking about her. And my wife was willing to do that, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so, and I would willingly <laughs> pay for it out of my pocket too. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 18 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: Uh, but it, it, it's, it is now much more formal and it's expected and it's expected in the military, and now you have a lot of, we probably have more daycare centers per capita than the, than regular society, you know? There's, I forget, there's a half a dozen or more daycare centers on Camp Pendleton. Miramar has theirs all the bases and have the childcare centers. And so I think that there's much more, the military has taken a, uh, realize happy wife, happy spouse. You're more likely to have a career, [inaudible] soldier, sailor, marine. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You're taking care of the family too. Visintainer: It makes sense in terms of retention and morale and all of that, yeah. Jackson: All of that. You know, one of the things I found is it translates in many ways to combat power. You know that no matter what happens to you, that your family's gonna be taken care of and you're gonna be taken care of. And so that's, that gives you strength, that gives every marine, every soldier, every sailor, that kind of strength. You know that I saw in other foreign armies that you got wounded and you're not killed you, you [shakes head]. So their soldiers weren't as aggressive. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Uh, they didn't have the same initiative to, you know, and it is not because they were less, you know, a man or less brave. It's just that they had that, well, there's no VA [Veteran's Administration], there's no, there's no widow's pension. There's no, you know. And so he's gotta be a little bit more careful, you know? So-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It does equate the combat power. Visintainer: I's a, it's a rock in your pack perhaps. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 19 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Yeah. In terms of success for the mission that you're about ready to accomplish. Visintainer: Yeah. Okay. Um, <Visintainer coughs> excuse me, you mentioned the Key Volunteer Program and so I, so I understand like the, you know, the purpose of a counselor or the purpose of a daycare-Jackson: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: But I was curious as to what the Key Volunteer Program, like what their purpose was, what types of activities they undertook, and as a support-Jackson: I, I think the main focus was to make sure if the families had a need, that it was taken care of while the service member was overseas. And a lot of times the wives would organize parties and picnics for the kids and, uh, things like that. Or they would exchange phone numbers so that you knew who to call in case of, you know, <laughs>, there's a rattlesnake in the garage the day after your husband left, you know, the car broke down <laughs> the day after your husband left. Um, uh, so, but the whole idea of the Key Volunteer Program was to make sure that the families knew where to go when they needed support, when the spouse was deployed overseas. Uh, and, uh, and they were literally volunteer in the most part. In the early days, you didn't get guys, it was mostly the wives, but now we have more you know, the, the... The military member may be the, the, the, the, the woman and the man is now the spouse that needs help when-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you. And so that was the whole point of the, um, the Key Volunteer Program: to bring them together, they knew there was a tight-knit family that would help take care of-- It was kind of like, uh, East Battalion had its own village, you know? And the village was designed to take care of, of all of the people that were left behind. Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So yeah, Visintainer: That's, that's pretty interesting. I'd never, never heard of this, uh, program before. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 20 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Yeah. It's a, it's a really good program. They professionalized the lead person at the battalion in about two thousand and three. A battalion's about a thousand Marines. Like on Camp Pendleton you have battalions and squadrons. Squadrons is the aviation equivalent of a battalion. And they would all have a senior lady, and they put, they actually had paid people do that. I think they're maybe toning that down a little bit with no war, but they still have the program. Uh, um, and, uh, yeah. Visintainer: <Visintainer coughs> Excuse me. Um, let's talk about how you decided to enlist. So I understand you were, you were graduated with a master's [degree] at this point. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: You were working and-Jackson: Well, let's see. I got married. Sue and I got married. We met at San Jose State [University]. Um, I had always aspired to be an officer. I thought I'd join the Army when I-- I was in ROTC just for a short while, at San Jose State in Army ROTC. And, it didn't sit well with all the other things that I was doing. But I still aspired to be an officer. Okay. I met my wife in an anatomy and physiology class in Spring of 1969. And, um, and it was a night class, so I would just walk her back to her sorority and I'd go down the street to my dorm. It was just a matter of safety and coming out of class after nine o'clock in an urban environment. And, and that was it. We didn't date or anything. I would just escort her. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, football player escorting pretty sorority girl home. And she's only two blocks from, or three blocks from where I was staying in the dorm. But the next fall, we were on campus and I met her on campus, just kind of bumped into each other again, not thinking much of that previous spring. And she said she had moved outta the sorority house, "come on over." So, <Jackson makes "I don't know" expression> mm-- you know, I was a little reluctant, you know, uh, blonde blue-eyed. And those days I wasn't dating blonde, blue-eyed <laughs> gals. So I recruited a couple more football players, Black, to come over and visit her and her friends, just so it would be-- And uh, son of a gun if the three football players and her three roommates all left and went to a party! <laughter> So there we were, you know, and, uh, we studied together and then we got to start getting together on Thursday nights just to study. My grades shot up <raises hand, laughs>, which was really good. And she was a home ec[onomics] major, and so she'd experiment with foods with me and being a football player, I could take all the calories she could pump out, you know. So I'd get an extra meal every day, <laughs> kind of, every Thursday, when we'd get together. And then finally by the end of that semester, or close to it, I said, "Are we an item?" You know? And we decided that we were an item. So 1970 rolls around, and we, we Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 21 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 decide to get permission from her side of the family. My side of the family reluctantly accepted the interracial dating, my dad being a Texan, that, that, you know, he had bad memories of that stuff. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And, uh, my mother was, she loved everybody no matter what. But her [Sue's] parents weren't real happy. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So the explosion went off and which actually drove us tighter together. We just wanted to date openly. Um, I often say that we had gone to see the movie, Guess Who's Coming To Dinner with Sidney Poitier... And, uh <laughs>. And when her parents found out about it, and I suddenly realized I was not Sidney Poitier. It wasn't gonna work out. But that sort of drove us together. And within, uh, four or five months, I just asked her to marry me. And, uh, because her family disowned her for the very fact that we'd gotten-- we were wanting to date. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they didn't want her to date. And I had never told her I loved her. Visintainer: Yeah. Wow. Jackson: We just wanted to date openly. And so... We uh, as the, as the, her world crowded in on her to try to break us up, it forced us together and me to be more defensive of her. And her-- she stood her ground. And uh, I once told my mother, "Well I don't know what love is, but I know what sacrifice is, and she has opted to date me," as opposed to a family that-- I mean, she's 21 years-old, you don't just give up your family. Her family gave up her, you know, and so, and that was just her mother and father by the way, not cousins or grandparents. Um, uh, and so. Uh, we got married. I asked her at Thanksgiving in 1970, "Hon, will you marry me?" You know, and she said, "When?" <laughs> I had no idea when <laughs>. I said, "semester break!" <laughs>. Jackson: It was my senior year. She was in grad school. And, uh, so I didn't have a job, but I'd just played my last football game the previous Saturday. And so the scholarship was gonna run out at the end of, uh, at graduation. So I was on time, Four years you know, because four years scholarship, you know, and, uh, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 22 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 so, uh... I s--, but I didn't have any rings or anything. So I go, um, but there was one alum, and this is another reason why I will have to reach back. There was one alum, Paul Barracker, little Jewish guy. He owned, I thought he only owned one jewelry store. He ended up owning four. But this little guy. And I told her [Sue], I asked her on Thanksgiving to marry me. And I said -- when we get back, we were visiting her sister in Sacramento -- "When we get back to San Jose, we'll go to Paul's Jewelers, downtown San Jose, and we'll get rings." Now, I didn't have a nickel. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: <laughs>. That's the ironic self-confident naive, uh, kid I was, I guess. And so Monday rolls around and we go down to Paul's, which is just, you could walk off campus, to Paul's-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And Paul's in the store. It's one of these stores that, you know, straight in downtown, it's jewelry on this side, jewelry on that side, just walk back to the counter. Very narrow store. Paul's in the back and he sees me come and I, you know, he was an alum who would come to football practice, sometimes fly to the games on the same plane as the team. So that's how I knew him. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: As this alum who supported football, not as a friend. I mean, he was old enough to be obviously my dad or, or, or maybe even older than that. And Paul comes running out, I mean, little bitty arms. I could wrap my hand around his bicep, close my fingers. Right. And he's in a football stance. "Tony so good to see you!" "Paul, hold it!" He's really enthusiastic. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Old European kind of an accent. And, uh, he-- I said, "Paul, hold it. I want you to meet my fiancé, Sue." And he said, "Oh, so pleased to meet you, Sue!" Does this double handshake. I'll never forget this. And then he goes, I said, "Well, what are you doing?" I said, "Paul, I came to buy, uh, our wedding rings and engagement ring." He says, “Oh, good! Good, good, good!" I said, "But Paul, I don't have any money, so if you hire me, I'll start to work." He says, "Okay! Okay, okay. You stop bothering me. Go back, talk to my secretary, fill out the application. You can come to work. Sue, you can buy anything in the store." <laughs>. So I got, I got a job selling jewelry through <Visintainer laughs>, through grad school, paid for those rings. I come to find out just a few years ago that Sue gave him a $25 down payment or something, but she just told me that. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 23 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But I worked for Paul. He taught me all about sapphires and all the diamonds and his jeweler, the guy who made some of the jewelry, he would teach me. He was from France. And he would, we had, I'd give him some English lessons, and now he liked my accent because it was flat. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, it didn't come with a New York or a twang or anything like that, accent. And so we exchanged a little bit of, he would teach me about clarity and diamonds, and I would clarify some words he didn't understand. Okay. But I did that for about a year and a half. And I also, uh, coached at a junior college -football -- and realized that I didn't want to be a football coach. But I had finished my master's degree, started my PhD at UC [University of California] Santa Cruz in history. And just, and I was teaching a class -- History of Third World Peoples -- as a grad student. And I just said, "Stop." <laughs>, "I gotta, I gotta get on with life." Sue was a high school teacher. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I actually went to work for an insurance company. So time is marching on. In the back of my mind, I still want to be a military officer. I still, war is going on in Vietnam, and I'm sitting here now, I'm in the insurance business. I'm making a lot of money. We bought a house in what became Silicon Valley. I can't even afford that house now. But bought a house. She got tenured. I was making a lot of money in the insurance business. My boss was really glad that I decided, you know, again, I was offered several jobs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, when I finally decided to work, he tried to recruit me right outta college. And my, before I-Right when Sue and I got married, he tried to get me to go to work for him at his insurance company, and I'd turned it down, but now here I was a year or two later and I was working for him and he was really good. It was like having somebody, being in a master's degree class, the Michael Anderson Agency with Penn Mutual Life. And this guy, Mike Anderson, was just a terrific teacher and mentor. And, and so I got off to fast start under his wing in insurance, and I was the consummate kind of, you know, I'd just been the captain of the football team, and all that [inaudible]. I'd been in San Jose for five years and all that stuff. So I knew a lot of people. And so I could contact them. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 24 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: But one day I was with a bunch of clients in, uh, in, uh, Candlestick Park, the old Giants, San Francisco Giants watching the Giants and Dodgers play in May of 1975. And across the screen, the-- from days on end, you saw pictures in the news of Marines and soldiers evacuating people from Saigon [now Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam] and helicopter, dramatic, people holding onto the rails of helicopters trying to get out as the North Vietnamese took over the country. And the same thing was happening in Camb-Cambodia, and Phnom Penh. And so, uh, I... And an American ship, the U.S.S Mayaguez had been captured by the Khmer Rouge, a communist group, and we didn't know where the sailors were from that ship. And across the screen at the ballgame <Jackson holds hands in front of self and widens them>, kind of the old ticker tape kind of thing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: "US Marines, recapture the Mayaguez." Said the thing. And I'm sitting here with hotdogs and beer and entertaining clients at a game. So the next day I put on my suit and I went to a recruiter. Didn't tell my wife. He goes, "Hey, you go to college?" And I said, yeah. And he said, "Well, you need to go see the officer selection offer in Alameda." So I took all my tests, signed up all in one day, came home and told her <laughs>. I remember the guy, he goes, "Do, you wanna, you want me to come home? I got a great movie we can show your wife. About what you're about ready to experience." I said, "You don't want me in my house tonight," <laughter>, "When I tell her what I just did." So I became private Anthony Jackson for a while before I went off OCS [Officer Candidate School]. But I was twenty-six, I was running out of time, and these guys were serving overseas, risking their lives. And here I had done nothing to really validate what I thought. And my idealistic view was to validate my citizenship and ensure that you could never deny me. As my father did, as my little brother did. So-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I still promised my wife it would only be for three years. Said, "Three honey. That's it." I actually got out and went into the reserves for about a year in keeping that three-year promise, which really, I was kind of sliding. I didn't realize I was gonna, eh long-- I found that the Marine Corps was my calling. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And even I got out, went to work, another high-paying job. Got, they gave me a brand new car with Kaiser Aluminum & Chemical, and sent me to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. But I just couldn't believe I'd be working. Uh, and I, so I joined a reserves unit to stay in touch, and then I realized that I started living for that reserve weekend. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 25 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And not what I was doing with Kaiser and, uh, and money wasn't important to me. And so I asked the Marine Corps to take me back, and the rest is kind of history at [inaudible] point. Visintainer: Had you ever expressed to Sue before you, uh, before you enlisted, that you had this idea? Jackson: Yeah, she knew that. She knew that that was kind of in my bones, but I really wanted-- I, in the first couple years with that flare-up in her family over our marriage, I wanted to make sure we had a solid marriage. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Before I all of the sudden ran off and left her, you know. I really did. I think that was why I delayed for so long, uh, was, you know, that was a pretty big sacrifice on her part. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And it was never healed back up. I never, I had never met my-- I met my mother-in-law, but I never did meet my father-in-law. Although we did have a civil conversation on the phone one time. But that was the only time I even talked to him. And that was in like 1978. So, um, and then he passed away. As if-- it was ironic because he and I should have been really good friends. We're, you know, he's a naval officer. He was a World War II destroyer escort. And he had, he'd graduated from UC Berkeley, their ROTC program. He was down here in San Diego when Pearl Harbor was attacked, on his reserve duty and mobilized right away. And they sailed into Pearl Harbor just the week after. You know, he was still smoldering. Things were still, they were still trying to find guys that were in capsized ships that were still alive. And, um, and he kept a diary. And, a part of that time, he had great distinguished service during World War II, became the CO [Commanding Officer] of a ship. He was a junior ensign when Pearl Harbor happened, but he had his own ship by the time the war ended. And, uh, and then he retired as a Navy-captain in the Navy, in the reserves, started his own business in, uh, he became a plumbing contractor, not a-- the guy that supplies all the contractors with all their gear. And during the boom years of growth in the Bay Area and made millions. And of course my wife probably didn't know how many millions he made, but she was disinherited. And that was, that was, uh, <laughs> her sister got it all when he passed away. And that's probably how we found out. But, um, and so, yeah. She's, she's tough <laughs>. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 26 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: You know, and, and held her ground and, uh, and it has been a source of strength and you don't really recognize all those things. She is motivating. She won't take credit, but she has been a prime motivating factor in my life. Um, uh, I mean she has her own, she has her own opinions, her own thoughts, et cetera. But, you know, you want to, you want to do well for those who believe in you kind of a deal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So you know, I've always wanted, I mean, I've taken great risk at times without thinking about that, but I think one of the things that's always in the back of my mind is that, you know, I do owe this woman something <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so don't screw it up, buddy. <laughter> But that means certainly you have to be a person of strength, especially if you're in an organization like the Marine Corps. You know, you're not a yes person. I mean, you can't be a yes person. I mean, you, you, you, you have to gauge when you should engage and you have to engage when you should just, maybe just shut up, but be willing to take on the right fights, you know? And sometimes you win 'em, sometimes you lose 'em, but don't back down until it's time to back down and then have the judgment to know when it's time to back down, you know. So it's kind of a give and take thing, because sometimes you're the boss and sometimes you're the junior guy that has to execute the plan. Visintainer: And having that judgment, I think is really difficult when you're, uh, so invested in something. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I imagine if you're in the Marine Corps and you're in a situation where you need to have that judgment, you're very invested in it. Jackson: Yeah. And, uh, and I've been on those sides of that, you know. I've lost an argument and then had to be the presenter, you know? Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 27 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, you're the guy that, uh, "Wait a minute! I was the only one in the room that objected." "Yeah. But you're, you're the communicator." <laughs> "You're gonna communicate it up the chain, right?" "Wait a minute, I'm-- there were twelve guys that agreed with you, sir." "Yeah, Tony, but you were the most articulate, you're presenting it! <laughs> Just make sure you win!" <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "When you present it up the chain, you know?" So I've been on that side of the coin. And, you know, you-- And the other thing is, I did appreciate the Marine Corps. That the Marine Corps appreciates strength and not weakness, not, you know, it appreciates the fact that you will pick the right time and place. You know, you don't want to embarrass the boss, but will you challenge him? And so you have to have that combination of moral courage and judgment and communication skills to win over when it's not <laughs>, it may not be a smooth subject. Okay? I think that is both been an asset and may have cost me a little bit of something at some point, but not nothing that-- I mean, my career exceeded my expectations. I'm not a Naval Academy guy. I'm not an ROTC guy. I didn't come out as a 21 year-old. I came in as second oldest guy in my OCS platoon. There was one other army guy that was a former soldier that was older than me, but I was, I was already as a-- the same age as my first bosses, my first commanding officers when I was a second lieutenant. And so I was always kind of -- agewise -- I think that was an edge, actually, that lightened my load because I had a sense of humor and I wasn't afraid of the process. <laughs> I wasn't afraid of the process. Yeah. Because you had to. Yeah. When you go to OCS or recruit training, like down here in San Diego, you just have to drop who you are. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: For that twelve weeks. You gotta just drop who you are and accept that you're gonna be a mold. You get to be who you are once you get out of that process, you know, of them breaking you down and building you back up. So I think my age was actually a benefit. Because of my body was still, uh, easily willed into Marine Corps shape. So, yeah. And having a dad who was a sergeant in the army probably helped me a lot too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I already knew how to make a military bed, <laughs> you know, to inspection standards. <laughs> We did that before we went to Sunday school. We got inspected. You know, it's really funny about not remembering this as a kid. You're standing in front of your bunk just like I did at OCS, and your dad's inspecting the shine on your shoes and the crease in your trousers and stuff like that, you know, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 28 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 <laughter>. And here you are, you're ten, you're ten years old, and dad's throwing a quarter on the bed to see if it bounces. The bed's that tight. The bed has to be tight enough of that coin to bounce up, you know? So Yeah. We got those inspections on Sundays. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Boys lined up <laughs>. Uh, yeah. But, uh, yeah. So, yeah. So it's been what? Sue and I have been married, yeah, we just celebrated our 52nd [wedding anniversary], you know-Visintainer: Congratulations. Jackson: Whew. Yeah. That's, uh, it's been, it's been a road. It's been a good road. 'Cause we, you know, we, we, we have a lot of things. I tell her that the reason why we're a successful marriage is because we have absolutely nothing in common. <laughs> You know? I'm a hunter and she's a doggone near herbivore. You know, not quite, but <laughs>, you know, uh, yeah. And we, we, we have a lot of, a lot of differences, which make it kind of good because she has her leans, and I have my leans, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. It gives you space to be your own person and you can come together around commonalities. Jackson: Right, right. And so, and then we'll come together for like a trip to the Sierras [Sierra Nevada mountain range]. Well I'll do fishing, and she'll do her native plant art, her botanical art. She likes to do that. And, uh, and so it's really kind of interesting. They'll come back at the end of the day, she'll show me her drawings and I'll show her my one little fish. <laughter> So, yeah. But, uh, Visintainer: Excuse me. So, um, so you've had a really long and distinguished career and I don't think we have time to go through it in like, phase, you know, and, and every phase of it. So I'd like to skip forward just a bit towards the end of your military career. Jackson: Okay. Visintainer: And talking about the work that you did, as I understand it, as the commander of, marine camps, Marine Corps, Installations West. Jackson: Right. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 29 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Um, and so this is a, this is a big deal, right? Jackson: This is the culmination of, uh, um, all of my general officer assignments were big deals, I thought. I mean, they were shocking the amount of responsibility a nation was willing to give a person and this special trust and confidence that you build up over, you know, twenty-eight, twenty-nine years and they finally make you a general. Um, so, uh, if you don't mind, I'll talk about the first assignment. I was, uh-here, I was selected for my first star as Brigadier General. And I was given the assignment to be the Deputy Commanding General for Marine [Corps] Forces Central Command. MARCENT in shorthand. So, which meant that I was gonna be the deputy for first General [Wallace "Chip"] Gregson, then General [John F.] Sattler, and then general, I had three generals who became my bosses, general [James N.] Mattis. Um, so in that capacity, my headquarters, I had two headquarters, one in Tampa, Florida, where Central Command is, and one in, Bahrain, which is on the Arabian Gulf near Saudi Arabia. And, my main job was to ensure that commanders and marines in contact on the battlefield had what they need. You're, you're the link for, the commander needs this, and industry makes it, and your headquarters. You were the judge on whether: did they really need it? And if they really needed it -- which I always agreed with the commander on the battlefield, because he knew his needs -- does the industry have it? And if headquarters is fighting it, tell them to get it, we're buying it. And I had that budget too, and so I would visit the battlefields and visit the commanders, uh, both Afghanistan and Iraq during that two year assignment. And they, and, and the-- so being in and out of the battlefield, it was different than being deployed. I had been deployed to Iraq as a colonel, but as a general, I was in and out. And I would also do diplomatic stuff in Egypt for the United States military. In Egypt, in Pakistan, and Bahrain and Oman. And I would go around and visit the military commanders and my peers. And, um, but the most critical thing I did was teaming up with a scientist named Susie Alderson, who is from right here in Fallbrook. And we, the battlefield, the commanders were wanting a vehicle that was more durable and could sustain the improvised explosive device explosions [IEDs]. And we just did not have that. Uh, we had the vehicle that our, our, our explosive ordinance disposal teams, they had a vehicle called a mine resistant, ambush protected vehicle, an MRAP. And if they got hit by a mine, it, because these guys went out into mine fields all the time and diffused them, or blew 'em up or whatever. They had this one special vehicle that the South Africans had developed that MRAP, but the [US armed] services weren't, they were sold on the Humvee for some reason. We were taking horrific casualties from these improvised explosion devices. Taking off arms, legs, killing people. And so when I was in Afghanistan, I had a United, I visited this United Nations mine clearing team, and they invited me to ride in one of these South African-built MRAPs as they were gonna clear mines. And here this general, my aide was a young captain. He did not want to get in that vehicle, but they had kind of like, "come on for the ride," okay sort of challenge you. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm in a helmet, flack jacket. I've even got ballistic protection where it really counts <laughs>, you know, and, uh, so, and these guys were dressed much like you. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 30 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: And so I took-- accepted their ride, and we hit probably seven mines, more? Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: But they were all -- fortunately -- anti-personnel mines. And so we got rattled and we could hear the shrapnel hitting the sides of the vehicle, but we were okay. But-Visintainer: What did that feel like when you hit a mine that first time? Jackson: Well, this vehicle was pretty solid, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I mean, what it, what it just, it kind of set off alarms and gives you a little adrenaline rush. And it was kind of like if you'd had, you ever had a rock hit the windshield in front of your car? The way it smacks that hard. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Yeah. It's like a bunch of those at once. <laughs> Except they're hitting metal, so you-- And I could see our chase! They gave us a chase vehicle just in case we got stranded out there, you know, vehicle breakdown. And I could see he was hitting them too. So it wasn't doing any, anybody, any good. The Soviets had laid a lot of mines and they were just, they were just horrible in Afghanistan, 'cause they put 'em in these farmers' fields so they wouldn't grow, couldn't grow crops. And that's what the UN was doing there, clearing them as we were fighting Taliban or whoever else. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I came home. I had this passion to get this vehicle, and I had, but I wasn't gonna be able to do it. Generals, the Army had refused, the Marine Corps had refused to get this vehicle. There was a whole, I didn't realize this fight was going on. I just knew my experience. And I had seen them before. General Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 31 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Gregson had showed me one. And here comes Susie Alderson. She had been in Iraq for a number of months, and she on her own initiative, she was a scientist assigned to me. And so she had been over there. Um, mine was a new command, so they had just set up MARCENT to handle the Middle East. And so I was the first permanent. So here I had this scientist assigned to me, and I hadn't tasked her with anything mm-hmm. But she had been over there and she did a study on survivability in various vehicles. So she had all the data laid out, if you're in this kind of, um Humvee you're gonna get killed. If you're in this kind, ehhh, there's a 80% chance you're gonna get killed. You're gonna get your legs blown off. If you're in this truck, this-- but if you're in this MRAP that the improvised explosive of the [inaudible] explosive warning disposal teams, you're most likely only gonna feel concussion. Not a death. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So I said, "Susie, great! That fits my passion." I called my staff together, put Susie and them together. Said, "You got ten PowerPoint slides, and we're gonna present this to the three-star [general]. So you [inaudible] no more than ten, they w-- general officers will fall asleep if you got more than ten PowerPoint slides. Do not do that." So I left the room and left her to my staff to power-- come up. They came in a couple hours later, "Sir, this is the brief." And I said, "Perfect." I didn't make a change to it. Susie and my chief of staff put this, it was beautiful. I called up on a secure VTC [video teleconference] because my boss was out here at Camp Pendleton, and here I was in Tampa. Got him on a little secure video of the day and told Susie, "Susie, you're the briefer. The generals have never won this argument, but you got the right voice." And, so she briefed it and they, General Sattler stopped it, or slide number seven. Next thing you know, we called up the commandant, okay, he got it in three slides. And I started buying these vehicles. I mean <laughs>, and I won't bore you with the technical part of it, but Susie's data got those vehicles in within six or seven months. I mean, I sent her around to all the big vehicle manufacturers in the US said, it's gotta have this transmission, it's gotta have this drivetrain, it's gotta have this engine. And these are the three different prototypes that you can build. You know, the John Deeres of the world that build heavy equipment, they changed assembly lines. They were happy to pitch in. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, the first 300 [IED] hits in 2006, no Marine Corps deaths. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So Susie becomes the mother of the MRAP and gets the highest decoration that a civilian can get in peace time in the, in the Department of Navy. So that was a big deal. And then as a two, that was as a one-star, that was one of the best effects as a one. As a two-star. I get assigned as the, uh, we have these four star commands, combatant commands is what they're called. One for the Pacific, one for Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 32 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Europe, one for South America, um, Pacific, European Command, Southern Command... And, we're gonna develop another one. And it's US Africa Command. And I'm chosen to be the first Director of Military Operations and Logistics, the J3 and the J4 for that command, headquartered outta Stuttgart, Germany and our focus would be the continent of Africa and all the associated islands. Minus Egypt. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We kept Egypt in Central command. And, uh, so, uh, <holds arms wide> it's brand new! There's nothing there. I mean, we're in rehabbed Army World War II buildings that belonged to the Wehrmacht in 1930. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Its [inaudible] journey. And so we gotta build this new command. And there were two two-stars there that were, we had a four-star boss, uh, General Walls [William E. Ward] and uh, and the Air Force, his [Wards's] chief of staff was an Air Force two-star. But I was the Director of Military Operations, which, you know, is-- I mean, you're just, you're thinking about it for every military event that goes on in the, in the continent of Africa that the US is involved in, you're gonna be the director and the advisor to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the president, the National Security Council, and the President of the United States. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You're gonna be the direct guy. And my boss was the kind of guy that, uh, general Ward, when I said Walls-- General Ward was the kind of guy, he liked to do all the diplomatic high stuff, flying around, meeting with heads of state and senior military. And he left the operational kind of running of things to me. Which I liked, but it kind of was, uh, it was interesting. Sometimes I would just wonder, okay, if we do this one, so probably the most prominent one would be in, um the, the pirates off the coast of Africa, off of Somalia. And, uh, and we had, and they generally speaking stayed away from US ships. But they would take these ships. These guys were once fishermen whose fishing industry... I mean the guys who actually were the pirates, not the businessmen in London and Somalia, the kingpins in Somalia, the warlords, but the ones who executed, the actual pirates, you know, they would get word from London who's flagship, what cargo was on it, what the crew was, all that would come out of London. And they'd filter it into Somalia. Visintainer: So there's somebody in London doing research to let them know what's headed their way? Wow. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 33 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. And so, and they know what insurance company and all this, and these guys had been fishermen, but the industrial fishing of China or Korea or Japan had just about depleted their waters. So they could not-- and so you had an understanding from an intelligence standpoint of why there was this piracy, these guys who could execute it. And they were just the lower end of the whole international cabal. ButVisintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, um, but when they captured the Maersk Alabama, uh, which was a U.S. Flagship. <shakes head> No way. 'Cause we weren't gonna negotiate with those guys. So-Visintainer: When was this? Jackson: This was 2008. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: They captured the Maersk Alabama, probably the spring. With a U.S. crew on it. And, uh, so, um... let me think. Yeah, I think that was under President Bush. Let me think for a second. 2009? Yeah, it was 2009. I think that was, I think it was actually one of the first decisions that I had to get out of President Obama. So that had to be 2009. And so it was very early in his term. So it was either late winter or early spring of 2009. And there was one guy, uh, the crew overpowered most of the pirates themselves. Without a gun fight. But, a shot was fired. One of the pirates was injured. And, uh, three of 'em captured the captain, of the ship, Captain [Richard] Phillips, and lowered a life boat and got off the ship. They made a movie outta this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, um, and, uh... So now we had, they had a hostage. We had the ship back, but they had an American hostage. And so myself, um, Admiral [William H.] McRaven was the head of our Joint Special Operations Command out of Fort Bragg [now Fort Liberty] here. So he had the Navy Seals and all the special ops guys. But they're, it was Africa's, AFRICOM's territory. My boss's out galivanting. So McRaven and I, we had the [Navy] Seals put on standby and they started rehearsing. And we had -- it's amazing -- we do several rehearsals on paper and drills. We had done a rehearsal of this on paper the year before. And so we kind of knew what the plan would be, you know? We didn't know how it [would] end, the very end of it, but we knew how we would get the right forces to the point that they could execute a mission. And then once they were at that point, it was up to them exactly how, but getting them from the States to-- Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 34 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 so McRaven and I reviewed the plan, called up the, the Joint Chiefs, the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman [of the Joint Chiefs of Staff], and briefed the plan. And we both agreed that we had a good plan to get the Navy Seals to be able to get the, the captain back. And we got pretty fast approval from the president. I think that's what we were all surprised 'cause he's a young senator we were all grizzly old admirals and generals older than the president, you know? And so we didn't have a lot of confidence 'cause these things are time sensitive, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, we, you know. You know it ended sadly in one way, because we killed all three of the pirates. Killed three of 'em. The one guy that survived was wounded when the crew took over. And so he, he was medevacked to one of our ships prior to... And we, Captain Phillips, we brought him home and it was it. So that was one, um, of a significant event. But I guess the thing is, is that you're making these life and death decisions. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That, you know, I would often tell myself that, "Hey, you have to look yourself in the mirror. And then when you get to the pearly gates, he's the only one that can pass judgment on your, on your judgment." You know, because there's been a couple of circumstances where, you know, you've directly impacted whether or not people have lost their lives or you've taken life. And so, uh, it's-- it's just one of those things and there's certain people that have to make those hardcore decisions and to think that you're in that position. And so after two years of doing that, which was a real from the bottom up, creating a command and all of the, I mean, <laughs> bringing tech, I mean we're, we're talking about copper wires that were put in by the Germans in the 1930s under Hitler that we're pulling out and pulling fiber optic cable on. So we're literally building buildings and running this command and making those kinds of decisions and other decisions which have national significance, you know. And then I was the first ordered to, or to go to Baghdad [Iraq] to be the chief of staff for our forces in Iraq for General [Raymond T.] Ordierno. And, but my boss, General Ward, he'd have had to let me go early, but he had, he had become so, uh, reliant on me -- and it was a new command -- and the Marine Corps promised him a full two years that he would have me, because they had to convince him to take a Marine. He's an Army four-star, and they had to convince him to put a Marine in that very position. And he, and he took me, you know, he probably had some young Army two-star that he would've liked to put in there, but he took me in on his command. And so when the Marine Corps said, "Hey, if you leave six months early, you can go back to war." And which from a, from a Marines standpoint, it would've been best for me to go back to Baghdad. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 35 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And be the chief of staff for General Ordierno, that would open up more opportunities as a flag officer, more senior rolls. But to get stationed at Camp Pendleton, my wife's a Californian. It was the alternative. So when General Ward objected to me leaving six months early, it became, uh, the fallback was the Marine Corps assigned me to be the Commanding General for Marine Corps Installations, West. MCI West, which included seven Marine Corps bases out west, to be the senior guy and be stationed in my wife's hometown in a place where we had owned homes in the past. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Great place for my kids to go to school. And, and so, and my kids had already, I had in 2004... In 2002, my oldest son graduated from Fallbrook High. He got, we came here in [19]98 and he-- my wife said, "I don't know where you're gonna be for the next four years, but we're going to be here as the kids go to one school." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so Brian was on his 10th or 11th school then going into the ninth grade. And so I deployed to Japan in 2002 as a colonel. And then my other son, Blaine was gonna graduate in 2004. And so I went overseas and the family stayed on base at Camp Pendleton. And then I came back and from the Far East, 'cause I didn't do the initial march to Baghdad. And I joined the unit at Camp Pendleton and we're ordered back to Iraq. And the theme went on, "I don't know where you're gonna be, but we're gonna be here." So Blaine graduated in 2004 from Fallbrook High. He got all his four years at one school. And so they were already locked in. And the wife, when I went over to Japan, I left her to, uh... She was, had chosen some land five acres in Fallbrook in 2000. Yeah. 2000. She chose five acres of this <holds hands out, palms up>. "There's nothing here, honey." She says, "Well, I'm designing a house with an architect." I said, "Great! <Visintainer laughs>. Then I got ordered overseas <laughs> and left her to build a house. And so I departed. I came home to help her move in to a house from the base to this house that she designed with an architect. And she interviewed five or six general contractors and hired one and stayed on the work site. I was in, doing things for the nation in Japan, Korea, and Philippines. And I came back home and helped her move in and then came back from a year without family and was here for four or five months. And we got redeployed the whole, all the, most of the combat Marines at Camp Pendleton went back to Iraq in the Al Anbar Province. And I was the Plans Officer, kind of responsible for getting all the beans, band aids, bullets, people over there and married up with their equipment on a timeline, and then be the last man to <laughs> to, to, arrive. And I remember getting there and sitting in the, getting down, getting ready to eat a meal as my host was showing me where I was gonna sleep that night and all that. And we get a bunch of incoming rounds and the whole chow hall emptied out, two of us are sitting there. And I said, "Well, there's no point in running. You might run into one <laughs>, you might run into incoming." So we went ahead and finished our meal while the stuff was coming down. You know, <laughs>, it's random. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 36 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's random. And so, when I got stationed back here, the wife had come to live with me when I, we finally got to live together. That was, there was that time period from 2002 to 2007 that we never really lived together. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Because I was in Tampa. She stayed here with the boys, and then they both started college. And, and I got orders to go overseas to Africa command in Stuttgart. And I said, "Hey, it's your home country. Would you like to come with me?" So she came over there for the year and a half or so. And the boys were going to college and doing what college-aged guys do without parents. Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: To provide any guidance. Jeez. And then, so when I got stationed, uh, the fallback position from not going over again to Baghdad was here. It was beautiful for family. And I knew that that would be my twilight, my last tour in the Marine Corps. So from 2009 to late 2011, I got to be the commanding general for, we have our mountain warfare training center up in Bridgeport, California. We have our Marine Corps... The real main Marine Corps ground combat center out of 29 Palms [California]. Yuma has our air station, Yuma Arizona. Miramar [Marine Corps Air Station, in San Diego], Camp Pendleton, and the Air Station on Camp Pendleton. And Barstow [Marine Corps Logistics Base, Barstow California] was the seventh one. So you're kind of the, you're kind of the governor is the way I equate it. And each one of those is a city, or in case of Camp Pendleton, several cities in a county. And so they're, they have their commanding officer, a colonel. And, so I'm basically the overseer for those to make sure they have the resources to do their job. And fortunately for me, it was the beginning of the Obama era where the Economic Recovery Act was, uh, they were looking for projects and the money was there. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: To fund a lot of things. And so new hospital at Camp Pendleton, well, I got that new chow hall, new barracks, new childcare centers, all that kind of stuff. I was getting billions of dollars during my watch to build that stuff. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 37 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so it was, uh, it was a good time. I've told these young Marines now that, well, it's not gonna be like that for a while. That was during a war. And the funding was there. We had a happy Congress and they weren't squabbling over money for the military, but as soon as the wars die down, money to the military becomes scarce. Um, so, but, uh, so that was a good assignment. I would, I would say that it was, it was a little bit different than my operational time as a general officer, but we had a lot of impact. Visintainer: So this is really interesting. And I think it's, it's kind of interesting how, maybe if I'm, if I'm understanding you correctly, maybe it wouldn't have been your first choice. Jackson: Yeah. It wouldn't have been my first choice as a, yeah-Visintainer: But in some ways it works out really nicely. Jackson: Yeah! Visintainer: To be around family-Jackson: Because I get to be around family. I get to be-- I meet this university again. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, I never, when I, when I left, when I left here in 1986, I mean, there was nothing here. This was a stinky old chicken farm. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Uh, you know, and, uh, when I come back, your [university] president is Karen Haynes, right? Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 38 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Mm-hmm. Jackson: And her husband, gentleman Jim Mickelson is on the staff and doing what he's doing with ACE program, ACE Scholars [Services, a program for foster youth at CSUSM]. And I'm the commanding general over there. And I'm a guy with war credentials and all that kind of stuff. And, uh, and they invite me over here. And, uh, and I'm just shocked that, you know, I'd driven by a couple times on 78 and seen the building there. And, but she [Haynes] invited me to lunch and then her husband drove me around his little golf cart, you know, to campus, and I'm in uniform. And, you know, California's weird. Southern California, this uni-- our uniforms are really welcome. But Northern California is not the same place, you know. Um, and, uh, and I, and so I, she took me over and showed me the nascent Veteran Center that it was then, not what this is now. And it was kind of really a good experience and to meet Karen and see her leadership, which I would compare with any general that I'd ever served with or-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I've served with some of the best this nation has to offer. And, uh, so, so, um... It's kind of interesting that I could not develop the relationship at San Jose State. I tried to, I mean of course distance was an enemy. Yeah. You know, but they kept changing leadership. Even now, I think they're in search of another president. And that's five or six presidents in, in-- I visited the campus when I was on active duty, a one-star. And giving presentations, this one doctor there, Dr. Jonathan Ross, he was really interested. I funded a little books and furniture for their library. He had a military history library set up in the history department. And so, and I was funding a scholarship and I wasn't get-- there was no feedback. There was no feedback. Except for Jonathan. He would try, and he still sends me emails every now and then, but the university was really like... But anyway, I wasn't gonna work when I retired at first, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Okay. I certainly wasn't gonna be a commuter to San Diego and the freeways just like trying to get here today. I said, ah, I forgot there's construction. I should have went this way and that way and, uh, but, um... But, I really hit it off with that, uh, with the leadership that was here, and I retired and I was sitting around, enjoying trying to be a gardener, thinking about my next trip, doing this and that. And I turned down several nice jobs, mainly for my wife because she didn't want me to work, and I was, you know, sixty, about ready to get Social Security, max out Social Security, and then <laughs>, you know, so why work? And Karen called and said, "Hey, how would you like to be on our foundation board?" And I said, okay. Man. Was that? <makes gesture like casting a fishing rod> I mean, she hooked me for, she had me set up. And I thought, hey, yeah. And I was on several boards, and so-- none of 'em paid. And, and I was gonna stay that way. And I'd bought my RV [recreational vehicle]. That was my retirement gift to myself, you know, nice. On that Mercedes chassis, looking good, driving down the freeway, camping out, fishing. And we did enjoy it. We do still have that. So we still enjoy it. And, I got calls from the governor's office. You know the boards were kind of pretty demanding anyway, and California State Parks was in a Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 39 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 horrible position. They had money that they couldn't account for. It was mishandled. It wasn't stolen, thank goodness. Nobody lined their pockets with it, but it was making the headlines and, and, and I couldn't believe that Parks was so screwed up. <Jackson's phone rings>. Visintainer: If you want, I can pause this. Jackson: I'll just stop. No, this is.. It's amazing how these people get your number. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: My kids would text, my wife would text, you know, but these people will uh, are clever <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. So that would've been around 2012 if I-Jackson: Yeah. That was two thousand, yeah, twelve. Yeah. So, uh, and I'm just, I was in-- I was kind of amazed. We have no idea what the civilian sector pays for jobs in the military. As a general officer, you're basically working for nothing. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Because you've, you've maxed out the retirement scale, and because you can retire when you hit 30 years, you get 75% of your base pay. When you, in two and a half years, every year there after, so I was at 36 and a half years, so you'd imagine that I'm 75%, two and a half years times, and so I was already at 95, 97%, something like that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, you're, you are working because you love what you do. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 40 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. I mean, you're, you're, you're totally into what you're doing and it takes care of your family and all that. So I really didn't want to work. There was one job that I might have taken, and that was when the Chancellor for the UC system asked me if I would like to apply to be the President of CSU Maritime Academy. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Up in Vallejo. And that was in the spring, only two months after I had retired from the Marine Corps. And it was just, it would've just been the wrong time. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But our, but I did accept the Rockefeller Family Fund. I got to be known for some of the speeches that I gave, rather, now that I've seen the video, <laughs> rather impassioned speeches about why we go to war, to a group of engineers and scientists, in particular, this one speech. And I was still in uniform and giving that speech, and I told them that, I just asked the audience of hundreds. I said, "Why is it that we're at war in the Middle East?" And you could hear the word oil echo out. You know? And, uh, and, uh, and I told 'em it was their responsibility to take us off of being dependent so we don't have to send our men and women overseas to bleed, you know, and I didn't realize they were videoing the damn thing. And it pops up all over the internet, right. <laughs> So, and my job as MCI West, I mean, this is the military is a multi-billions of dollar industry in California. And as the commanding general of MCI West, you had access to the governor and Governor [Arnold] Schwarzenegger when I first got there, Governor [Jerry] Brown, later, you would meet with them once or twice a year. If there's any issues, like, you know, there's a state park on Camp Pendleton, it's one of the most profitable parks in the state park system. So this, it was good. They got the park for a $1 lease of several miles of beach, you know, and that was gonna come up for negotiation in a couple of years. And Secretary of the Navy wants real money for it now. It's not just a being a kind person anymore. It's, uh, so you have mutual interests and the environmental California Clean Air Act and all this kind of stuff and whether or not we can meet our tanks can meet your emission standards. No. So what's gonna be the offset? Things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So you're up there negotiating and trying to make them aware. And being a Californian, it also gave me a little bit, um, adopted Californian anyway, it gave me a little bit different access because I was one of them sort of. And so when I talked to a senator or to the member of the of the governor's cabinet, it came out, uh, we had positive discussions. So they knew me in Sacramento. And they knew I had a green side. And they knew that we were doing all of our green development on our bases. We were doing a lot. It was funded by the Secretary of the Navy, Secretary [Ray] Mabus and President Obama. And so, we were being really green. And so I was speaking the language of the Commander In Chief and Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 41 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 the Secretary of the Navy, being really green, and as my war experience as well made me have pretty much total buy-in. And my wife's Prius <laughs>. And the fact that she put in, I gave her $30,000 and put in solar at our house. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, you know, all of those things, you know. And so I got a call from the, from the governor's office and the Secretary of Natural Resources, if I would please consider being the director of California State Parks. I said, "Oh, man, that sounds so good. I could do my job in my RV." And my wife, who's just a natural member of, at that time of the Sierra Club and the California Native Plant Society and all that. This, that's actually a job I'll consider. So I told her about it, and she said, "Well, if that's what you want to do." Which is her logical, her normal answer too. And so I took that up, I mean, to get the millions of dollars back in the right place. They had a morale problem. But they're kind of like military people in as much as, uh, a bunch of really dedicated people that don't get paid much for their dedication. They work for the state, the state doesn't realize, matter of fact, I'd say in some of the assignments that the park rangers have, they live more austere than a military family would definitely live. And the state doesn't recognize that, but they're-- If you're a ranger and you've got a series of parks in Carmel, Monterey, and those beach parks and stuff like that, and the state can't pay you enough for housing and stuff, things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And some of the more remote places, it's amazing! Old ranch houses that they'll rehabilitate, you know, and they learn to love what they're doing. You know, they, they, they do it because they love the great outdoors. They love people, they love the animals and all of that stuff. And they hear they, "Hey, I want to give you a pay raise, bring you to Sacramento and put you at my right hand." "Oh, no sir. <Visintainer laughs> I want to be, I want to be right down here where I am. I don't want to be in Sacramento." Uh, and they, they, they, there's a very different, uh, they're, they're much like Marines, but they don't have an up or out sort of ethic or, or, or, or value system. Theirs is, "I'm here. Like, this is my park, these are my parks, and this is where I want to raise my family, even if it's a twenty-five mile bus ride for my kids to go to kindergarten." This is, this is in the, I loved them for that. Great people. And, and I think they were, I don't want to talk too badly of my predecessor, but they needed the kind of leadership that's taught and admired in the Marine Corps. So getting in my, I literally got my RV, we have a state park on-Border Fields State Park right there at the fence. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Separating Tijuana from us. And we have one all the way on the Oregon border. Arizona border. Nevada border. And so I just, my wife and I, and I call the office in, um, and I tell my secretary, Lynn Black, I say, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 42 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 "Lynn, tomorrow I'm gonna be at Humboldt State Park. You can tell him now." Okay. But I didn't want her to tell him, you know, a week in adva-- I didn't want him scrambling. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: You know, I know how it is in the military when you know the general's gonna show up. It might be two weeks of scrubbing brass, you know, you know, if they got two weeks notice, they have two weeks of panic. <Visintainer coughs>. If they, if they have twenty-four hours of notice, they only got twenty-four hours of panic. And you can't fix much that's broken in 24 hours <laughs>. So that was great. I, I did enjoy that. I did not want a new career though. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, I told the governor I've got two or three years, and not only that, I had grown spoiled, as a general officer to make critical decisions, life decisions. And you cannot do that. I mean, you're a political appointee of the governor, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And you gotta be approved by, you know, two-thirds of the state senate. So you had to go through those hearings and all that, so you could not be totally, you could be what the governor wanted. But maybe not the governor's staff. The initiative was a little bit frightening. My initiative I think was a little bit frightening in Sacramento, and I can't stand micromanagers. Visintainer: Yeah. How was it frightening? Jackson: Uh, say your question again? Visintainer: How was it frightening? Jackson: Um, who, my initiative? Because I might do something that, uh, that might be really good for parks, really good for parks' people, but maybe it doesn't suit the governor's budget agenda. It might be too, you know, and so you did not want, and you didn't want to be that guy that-- but you wanted to do the right things, and you had to have people that would kind of support you in, in, in, in, uh, that you were Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 43 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 trying to do the right thing. Now, they could argue, and you might not be able to do it, but I did not feel that-- the military's incredible in terms of the responsibilities that I was given. And it was based on the special trust and confidence that I had built up over, you know, thirty years of service. And that, I mean that is, you're making really important decisions affecting people and maybe tens of thousands of people. And so to come down from that, it was, was, was not ideal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you had to come down from that, uh, you know, uh, your ego. Something had to, had to, had to back off. That you no longer had that much special trust and confi-- You had some trust and confidence. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But you didn't have that ultimate special trust <laughs>, you know, because, you know. And, uh, and so I, I, I, I decided that certainly I didn't wanna spend any more time in that environment than fixing what I could fix. So got the budget money straight, got it all back, started fixing restrooms, started-- I, you know, I took it like it was a military operation: to develop a campaign plan, publish it to everybody. To everybody. Put it on the, on the website so every employee could read it. Visintainer: And at some point-Jackson: I, you know, I set up a, it still goes, they dropped me off the mailing list. My wife is still on the mailing list, but it's an email newsletter goes out every Friday. It's the same thing the Marine Corps does. I still get 'em from the, from the... from the Chief of Naval Operations. And I get a daily report of what's important. And then from the Marine Corps, every Friday I get one. You know, so that when I'm communicating as a member of a community, I'm talking from some firsthand knowledge. Not all of it, I don't, I'm not nothing secret, all open source stuff that we can communicate when we're out in our communities. As a flag officer, you still have certain responsibilities. Visintainer: Sure. Jackson: That, uh, uh, so yeah. So the civilian world's a little bit different, you know, and it was kind of... I think you have to, you have to adapt to it though, it's not gonna adapt to you. And so I, you know, after about two years, I kind of said, okay, and things are relatively stable here, for you. And, I would, I'm gonna step down and I was like I'm, I was just ready not to, and my wife one day, she goes, I was, I was commuting back and forth. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 44 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So I would like fly home on Friday night and maybe Thursday night sometimes, and then I'd fly out Sunday night back to Sacramento or early Monday morning. And, you know, and that-- one day she looks at me and she says, "This is just like you're deployed." <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know <laughter>. So I knew it was about time to put in the hat. Those two things came together, that deployment remark. And I was like, challenged whether or not I did, I wanted to give up the idea of that special trust and confidence that I had grown so used to as a military officer. Visintainer: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Jackson: Mm-hmm. So. Visintainer: I had a couple questions about Camp Pendleton I wanted to ask you. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: One was, I was, I was curious about the base's relationship with the surrounding North County community and how that changed, how you've seen that change over time, if it has, maybe it hasn't? Jackson: Actually. Um, you know when Oceanside [California] was like shootouts at the O.K .Corral, not shootouts, but get drunk, go to a strip club, that kind of thing. In the seventies, it was, it was pretty, pretty harsh. And 'cause the Marine Corps was, it was, it was-- those were tough times for the Marine Corps and the city and the development. You didn't have the growth boom that's occurred over the last forty to fifty years for sure. But, I think it's really good relationship with the, with the uh, with the community. With the colleges, community colleges. I think this is a great relationship that Cal State San Marcos has with the military community in San Diego, writ large. And I think that Camp Pendleton... I think, I think the region knows that like 65% of the Marine Corps' combat power is here <waves hand in circular motion> and you can add on the Yuma Air Station with it, is here, this is the main war-fighting engine, and you got similar but smaller in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina and forward deployed in Okinawa, Japan. But they're smaller and they have different wartime commitments. This is the heavy Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 45 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 punch. And these bases, both the airspace, the sea space and the ground space for training are unmatched in the world. So you have the finest <waves hand in circular motion>, this geographic area, just, just what God put here makes it that way, you know, and you can have every just about climatic condition within MCI West, with the exception of a tropical jungle, you know. From the Sierras and our cold weather arctic training to the desert, to mountains and all this kind of stuff, the beaches. And, I mean, it's incredible training. And that's why Camp Pendleton, you know, was initially, what do they call it when the city comes in and takes your property? They took Camp Pendleton-Visintainer: Eminent domain? Jackson: Eminent domain. That's how it was. You know, here's $4 million, you're out of here. The O'Neill family, and they're the ones that developed San Clemente and all that region up north of San Clemente, you know, big developers, they're still here. The O'Neil family still, part of it's still here. But that eighteen miles of coastline, the number of military and military families associated with it. That, and the Navy, I think this is, we generate billions, like thirty-six billion dollars annually. And then in the state of California, it's over fifty-six billion dollars. So-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Just about one in every eleven or twelve defense dollars comes to California. Visintainer: Wow. <Jackson laughs>, that's significant <Jackson laughs>. Jackson: Yeah. I mean, you considered there's 50 states <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they pay taxes too <laughs>. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, um, I mean, Vista, the mayors, the, and the, and the San Clemente and, and Oceanside and San Marcos, they show up at events. They're invitees. They're on the invitation list to events. <laughs> The old mayor of Oceanside, he used to be quite a character, but he was kind of losing it a little bit, and he's Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 46 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 a really nice guy and he's had some strokes and stuff like that, but he'd still show up, you know? To things. And so I think that both from an economic development standpoint, and I think Camp Pendleton also felt that during my time there, that we were really helping San Diego, San Diego County, and the local communities with our investments that were given through the Economic Recovery Act. We were employing the citizens out there. It's a, you know, it's a kind of a domino effect on money spent from the military community here. So I think there's a really good relationship between the military. And I, and I, and, and I appreciate it because I don't think every community in California, although I'm on the governor's military council, and so I get to visit-- matter of fact, we have a meeting in another week or two. I better look at my calendar up at Vandenberg Air Force Base. But we meet all over the state where there's military communities, and we try to tie the, one of the things we try to do is tie the communities with the military base around them, and a lot of, and the communities have embraced that to the benefit of both. Because if you have a, um, a water problem or a waste management problem on your base, well, that's part of the community's problem too, because you're probably locked into the system. If you're trying to do renewable energies on the base, that's probably the community's issue too. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: If the schools aren't properly funded in the communities around the base, then you're, it's probably the base people are gonna be concerned. The military families are gonna be concerned, and they're not gonna want to go there if the schools aren't good schools. And so, I mean, we did a, around both Camp Pendleton, the Fallbrook Union School, elementary school district, and around Edwards Air Force Base, north of Los Angeles, they were both schools that are impacted by the military but weren't, were slipping in terms of, oh, quality of education, quality of facilities, and getting instructors. And some of these places are hardcore. And so the military worked with them to get matching funding in both of those school districts to, to rebuild schools, to hire teachers and things like that, that affects quality of life for military families as well as, you know, the community writ large. So it behooves the communities to, uh, to be kind of tied in with the bases, and it behooves the bases to be tied in. And so the commanders normally really recognize that and are accepted in the community. I have had one negative experience. It was actually, I was at [employed at] state parks and I was asked to be the commencement speaker at my high school in Oakland. It's kind of nice. I'm a retired general coming, and then I got a phone call from them, saying the principal wanted to make sure that I would not wear my uniform to the [ceremony]. Now I've been retired for, probably couldn't fit in my uniform and he should have thought of that. "Don't wear your uniform," basically. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm going, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, wait a minute." The high school principal's asking a guy who spent thirty-six and a half years in this uniform, that he doesn't want him to wear it. Now, first of all, I wouldn't have thought of wearing my uniform to, uh, you know, if it's a military event... No, I still wouldn't have worn a uniform <laughs>. Get a new tuxedo. I mean, you're in ship, tip-shop shape when you're in there. You know, you're <makes gesture indicating slim>, you know. I think I've grown a little bit rotund since those days, right. <laughs> Gently so <laughter>. But, uh, and so that uniform is fitted to Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 47 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 you, you know? And so I wouldn't have dreamed of it. But he, it was such an insult. I said, unless they withdraw that I'm not gonna speak. And so I didn't speak at my high school. And that was after retirement, and it was a totally unnecessary thing. But that's the difference. I mean, you'll run into that at the, at northern, you know. You know, I remember days going to watch the students riot at Berkeley and all that, but that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That was an attitude out of a principal in Oakland and my old alma mater. So, uh, and that's the only negative that, but I thought that was uh, and I just told him, I said, "Well, I can't come." I said, because it, it's like you're dishonoring-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You want me to deny I am a general. Visintainer: That's a huge part of your, your existence-Jackson: When you, you know, as I remember Commandant General James Conway going, no matter what, gentlemen-- all the generals in the Marine Corps get together once a year, and those who aren't forward deployed anyway, and he says, "I don't want you all worrying about whether you're a one-star, two-star, three-star, whatever. You're all just going to be generals and when they put it on your tombstone, that's what everybody will remember." They don't remember if you're, whatever, general, general, Lieutenant General. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so I thought that was good advice for, you know, and, uh, yeah. But yeah, it's kind of an interesting, well, let me show you one thing here. <laughs> I brought this because my wife told me to bring it, but she's my smartest counselor. <Visintainer laughs>. She does these really cool, she doesn't do like family albums, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 48 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 She tells the family story in this, in these, so you can-Visintainer: Can I [inaudible]? <Visintainer moves camera to show album sitting in Jackson's lap>. Jackson: She does these drawings. Yeah. Yeah. So all the drawings you see in this, she does, there's an old oak tree down by the Santa Margarita River and it's been chopped and it's been burned, and the top's been blown off in high winds, but it's just resilient, you know? So she says, that's kind of the story of your family-Visintainer: Uh-huh. Jackson: Resilience, <laughs> you know, and so, uh... So you'll see these different drawings, and then she'll go through and then she's found, it's kind of hard; we know that on my mother's side, this is my dad's, I mean, you can see how thin [the family tree is], when you're descendants of slaves, you don't necessarily get all the way back on the African descendants' side. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Very far. And this is my dad's little genealogical tree. And then this is my mother's. And what's interesting is from my mother's side, and this is where my dad lied on his draft card and said his parents were deceased <laughs>. And, so that's my dad as a like 16 year-old. I said, he looks like older than that, and this is him at the Korean War, and this is kind of his story. And then when I said he is a boxer, now this is my dad, when I was a senior in high school. Do you think I'd ever mess with my dad <laughter>? Visintainer: No you can definitely he was a, he was a prize fighter. Jackson: But he never lifted weights. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And this is a newspaper article when he was-- about why he chose to stay [inaudible]. He was a rated heavyweight fighter, but he chose to stick with the Army. And in this article there, they asked him why. And he just said it was more secure. But I only saw him in person fight one time. And he knocked the guy out with a, and this is his father and his mother. And yeah, that's my oldest sister and grandmother and Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 49 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 my dad's sister. But there's, now it goes over to my mother's side, and this is my mother as a girl. And this is all seven, there's very few pictures of all seven of my brothers and sisters. And this is like third grade Tony right there with his finger in his mouth. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And this is <laughs>. And this is us in Oakland. This is in Texas. And this is all seven of the kids. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, my dad's funeral, I think that's what <laughs> got us back together. But my family goes back to the original pioneers on my mother's side of, founding, they were with Brigham Young's party. And, um, and this tells the story, and one of the three people were with Brigham Young that were slaves. And my great-great-great grandfather [Green Flake] was a slave to, that was with that original Mormon party. And so he becomes a founder. That's my great-grandmother. There's a couple of pictures in here that are kind of neat. But Green Flake, that's him, was a slave. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That came with the original. This tells the story of the original Mormon party that he was with. And he was, he was a scout. And um, and he-- and um, a road builder. And he drove Brigham Young's wagon. So when Brigham Young ends up in Salt Lake, the guy who he says, "This is the place," is my great-greatgreat grandfather, Green Flake. Now this is kind of a, this is my, this is Green Flake's daughter, my greatgreat-grandmother. This is my great-grandmother. This is that same great-grandmother with my grandmother, with my mother, with my older sister. Now, the curious thing is: so far the oldest of each generation is a woman, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then now down here, this is a picture with my grandmother, <points> her; my mother, her; my sister, her right there; her daughter Lonnie, the first of that generation, and her daughter. Visintainer: Wow. <laughter>. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 50 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 So for seven consecutive generations, it's all girls. Visintainer: That's amazing. Jackson: And then finally she broke the mold. She now has a son, which is the first of that generation. And this is another curious thing. This is my great-great grandfather, one of them. And he's Mexican. And he changed his name to George Stevens. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: <laughs> It doesn't show up much in my DNA, less than 1%. So my family has always had this knowledge. And then my wife got really into it. And then, and Green Flake-- This is a statue of Brigham Young, which is in downtown Salt Lake City, if you've ever been there. Visintainer: I've never been. Jackson: And in it, they list all of the original pioneers. And then down in a corner it has the three slaves, and which includes my great-great-great grandfather, Green Flake, you know. And, um, so he becomes the oldest living member of the original Mormon pioneers. Of the original ones. And so he's at the Jubilee, the 50th anniversary, he gets invited back from his farm in Idaho to be an honored guest as the oldest living. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And so, and here this lady stands up, this is from the Salt Lake Union Tribune of 1903 or something like that when he's there. And [the lady] asked him what it's like to be a slave. And so we actually have in quotes from the Tribune what it was like. 'Cause he was born in 1828. So, so that was kind of curious. And so where they did make a marker at a park, Pioneer Park. This marker was there, and somebody tore it down years ago. And I took my sons to see it with my mother, and this is his tombstone, which is kind of cool. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 51 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And, uh, so somebody tore this down, and then, so this-- It was amazing, this summer, last summer past, they finally-- that's my family reunion, right? This picture right here, that's my sister and aunt. They finally built this thing. Look how small they look. Over a 10-foot statue of Green Flake now is in the, the historic park, um, Heritage Park of Salt Lake City, Utah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's got this oversized statue of Green is finally made the, besides the footnote. But anyway, that was just in July I think they commemorated that statue. So that's part of what gives Jackson strength. Visintainer: Yes. Jackson: You know, is knowing that you have a, you know, a big history with this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Are we over time? Visintainer: Uh, we-- we we're actually almost out of [camera] battery strength. <Jackson laughs> We've talked for a while, so I think it's as good a place of any is to end the interview. I actually have so many more questions for you, but-Jackson: That's all right. Visintainer: We'll run out of, we're run out of battery so-Jackson: That's okay. It was fun to talk. Visintainer: It is a real pleasure to have you-Jackson: Be hoarse the rest of the day. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 52 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. <Jackson laughs> It's a pleasure to have you visit us and-Jackson: Yeah, well thanks for inviting me to recall some good things and, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: There were no real flashbacks, you know? Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: It can happen though. Every now and then, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Oh man. Visintainer: Well, thank you again. Jackson: Okay. Hopefully that was-Visintainer: I'm gonna go ahead and end the interview. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 53 2023-06-08 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jackson, Anthony. Interview transcript. March 7, 2023. Description An account of the resource Major General Anthony L. Jackson retired from the United States Marine Corps on January 1st, 2012, after more than thirty-six years of service. After retiring form the Marine Corps, he served as the Director, California State Parks and Recreation from November 2012 through June, 2014. Major General Jackson has also served as the Chairman of the California State University, San Marcos, Foundation Board of Directors. In his interview, Jackson discusses his upbringing in a military family, including participating in a sit-in in a local drug store, and offers a comparison between his military service and that of his father, who served in the United States army. Jackson discusses life on military bases and support systems for deployed soldiers. Jackson recounts the courtship of his future wife, Sue, their early relationship, and the experience of being in an interracial relationship in the 1970s. Jackson discusses his later career with the Marines, including serving as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT, where he helped make the case for the military to purchase Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs) during the second Iraq war, and working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, AFRICOM. Jackson also discusses finishing his military career by returning to Camp Pendleton and other western U.S. bases as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West). Jackson finishes his interview discussing his time working for California State Parks, his relationship with Cal State San Marcos, and his family lineage, which includes the enslaved wagon driver Green Flash, who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anthony Jackson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-07 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Civil rights demonstrations Iraq War, 2003-2011 Military families Mormon Church Piracy -- Indian Ocean Racism United States. Africa Command. United States. Marine Corps Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Houston (Tex.) 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-32 Activists and activism Black experience Community history Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/68cc93b349d572359c4680f7c6576237.pdf 742db1a15707b29f357b16addcd6bf62 PDF Text Text ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Suzy Karasik: Good afternoon. Today is November 3rd, 2022. My name is Suzy Karasik and I am interviewing Roberta Estrada as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Roberta Estrada, thank you for joining me today. Roberta Estrada: My pleasure. Karasik: Great. So, I think probably the best part–the best place to start is a little bit of background—where you were born—and let’s talk about what was your childhood, like when you went to school, and how you identified yourself. So, I’ll give you plenty of time to go over that. Estrada: Well, I was born in–at Camp Pendleton at the old Marine Corps Hospital in 1945, and I’m the oldest of three children. My parents met at Camp Pendleton because my dad is from the Midwest, and we’re a very tight-knit family, and did a lot of things together. My mother i–wa– well, she’s passed away, but my mother was French and Native American from San Luis Rey area, and I am actually a—let me think now, what—third, fourth-born native of the area. So, I went to school very, very short period of time in Oceanside where we lived at the time when I started kindergarten. And my dad says, “No, that’s too close to Camp Pendleton. I’m out of the Marine Corps now. So, we’re going to move.” So we moved to Vista (chuckles), long ways away. So, I only attended there for two months. At the time there was no busing for kindergarten children in Vista, so I didn’t go to school until I went into first grade. Went for two years in Vista and my dad says, “Met a couple and they said ‘Oh no, you have to put your child in school in San Marcos because the schools are smaller and we liked them.’” So, he says, “Okay, we’ll shift you over there.” So, I came to San Marcos in the third grade, and was there until I finished eighth grade, first graduating class out of what was then Alvin Dunn School, and then—now it’s changed to La Mirada Academy. Then I went to—we didn’t have high school in San Marcos. So, the kids that–the children that went to school in San Marcos and finished eighth grade were split up between Escondido and a few of us went in to Vista, because we were on the border of Vista and San Marcos. And, it was a much bigger school than San Marcos was when it was built, and so my dad says, “We’ll get you in there.” Okay. So, my junior year of high school, I switched back to San Marcos schools with all of the people that–children–all the friends that I had and been raised with through school, and I finished high school the year that San Marcos became a city in 1963. Karasik: Very interesting. Estrada: Yes, and it’s been— Karasik: And how was your experience there, like, when you said you were happy to go back to the school that you’d been with your friends in grade school? And were there other Native American children there? And let’s talk a little bit about also your Mexican last name and how you felt that might have been an advantage. Estrada: Well, at that time, my last name was not Estrada. At that time, my last name was Guy, very Anglo. So, in school, while I was in school in Vista, there were more of the local Hispanic Transcribed by Melissa Martin 1 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 children, and I don’t think I even associated with Native American children being—or picked out children as being—Native American at that time. All the way through school. I don’t believe I ever did. And I don’t think that that even happened until after I finished high school and I did go to college and majored in Spanish, and with a general education for elementary studies. But, I don’t ever remember connecting to the Native Americans at that time. My husband, his family— well, his fam–his immediate family was from Anaheim, but his father was from Pala. So, he was the Native. But he had the Native American in him. And the only reason that he got the Native American—the last name of Estrada was because that–his grandfather worked for people whose name was Estrada, and if they went to get any kind of bank accounts or do anything in town, they had to have a last name. They couldn’t just go by their Native American names. So, they took the last name of what we call the dueños, and those are the people that had the–the owners of the ranches and that’s where the Estrada name came from. But, um, my husband was the first one to get in—no, actually my mother, because her mother was Native American, and her father was also Native American. And s–their–my grandfather is from one of the prominent families in Oceanside, the Foussat family. And he is one of three brothers. So, he had a truck farm and we all learned how to help out on the truck farm. And that’s when I met a lot of the other Natives, I guess you would say, or—well, actually there weren’t a lot of Natives. There were more Hispanics than there were Natives that, uh, were in that area. Karasik: And back in that time, those years, did they k–refer to people as Natives or as Indians. Estrada: As Indians and if you talked to my father-in-law who was half-blood, he said that they could not claim being Indian or Native American and–or they would be put on—just like on the opposite side of the room at the end of the line or whatever. They had to claim–they ha–the Hispanic background, the Mexican background, in order to be eligible for a lot of things. And— Karasik: So, this was talked about at home, and you were prepared to know how to best present yourself when you were in school or those situations. Estrada: I would say not until I probably was late high school. Karasik: Mm-hmm. But it was talked about at home. Estrada: A little bit. Well, be–the first thing that happened was that my father didn’t speak any— well, my mother spoke Spanish and that–because that was–they didn’t use a lot of the Native language at the time, and my father didn’t. So, it was, “Speak to the children in English. They need to learn in English.” And they were married in the Catholic church, but my father had to— and in San Luis Rey Mission, in fact—but my father had to sign papers to say that my mother was to be allowed to raise the children as she was raised. So, because he was from the Midwest, and— Karasik: She would be allowed— Estrada: She would be allowed— (nodding) Karasik: —to raise the children. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 2 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Estrada: Yes. She would be. Karasik: And this was the San Luis Rey Mission— Estrada: Yes. Karasik: —Band. Estrada: They were—well, yes. They were married in–at the San Luis Rey Mission in 1944, and that’s when–shortly after I was–I was probably about late high school when I–when my mother was getting more involved with the Native American group. She was more into helping others than–than trying to–to say “You’re–you’re Native American, Roberta. You need to think about this. You need to do this. You need to do that.” She never really pointed that out to us. I have a younger sister and a younger brother, and the three of us have become pretty involved with the tribe now, of which I am part of the Tribal Council. My husband was part of the Tribal Council first, but when he could not do it any longer, then I was helping him by sitting by his side to start with. And then–and then I became part of the Tribal Council itself, aft–no, before he passed away. Karasik: I’m curious there. It sounds like, because you became part of the Tribal Council, and you are now, are women more respected and it’s a matriarchal kind of a society? And how did that feel for you, looking at other cultures where women weren’t perhaps quite as— Estrada: Yes. There is more, um,—When you—If you look at our Tribal Council, I think it is a majority of women. I never even thought about it that way. But yes. And the other thing is that I would say that there were times when I would say, “Why don’t they let her speak. Why don’t– Why does he have to talk for her?” You know, when I would meet other families. And I, when I came—I went away to college, came back, and taught school here in San Marcos. And, um, the first class I taught was a kindergarten class and they were hiring–I was hired as a bilingual teacher, because I did have a Spanish major. And I can remember parents bringing their children in and not being allowed. The–the mother usually was not allowed to speak for the–for–for them. Or she would speak for the child, but if I asked a question, the mother would always turn and look to see if it was okay to answer or not. Karasik: And what year was this? Estrada: 1976. When I changed my name. Well, actually I came back in ’70—let’s see, ’68. Karasik: Right. Estrada: I came back in ’68. I–What I had intended in–When I went to college, I went to college at a–what was called a county Normal School in the state of Wisconsin, because that was where my dad was from. I moved there. I lived with family so that I didn’t have to pay the extra in– tuition for anything. And when I came—and that was an experience in itself, because the— I mean, my first teaching classes, my student teaching classes, were in one-room schools where they had everybody. The first room was just kindergarten through fourth grade, and the teacher I was teaching under was actually the principal of the school too. The second session was Transcribed by Melissa Martin 3 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 (chuckles) an eighth grade and that was even more interesting because that eighth grade had these kids that were much bigger than I was at the time. And, I mean, ‘cuz it was only two years after I had finished high school. And, uh, then when I–I said, “You know. I like Wisconsin. I like the changes in the weather and the foliage and all of that. It was just really nice. But I’m a California girl.” I came back. I went to school when they were first building Cal State San Bernardino. And I finished off my—Well, first when I came back, I had to get the basics from Palomar because we skipped right to the last two years of school. And now I had to go back and get my beginning language, my beginning math, my beginning sciences that the colleges require. Then I went to—When I finished at Palomar, I went to Cal State San Bernardino for two years and got my Life Credential for teaching, which is a no more existing thing now, anyhow. I don’t have to go back to take classes in order to teach. I could—I’ve been retired for thirteen plus years now. But I could go in and apply and still be eligible to get a job now if I wanted to, which I don’t because I’m too involved with too many other things. Karasik: Great. Um, yeah, I’m aware of that. They do not offer the Lifetime anymore. So, what was it like when you said, “I’m a California girl, and I want to come back.” It sounds like a lot of things had changed within you as well. And I thought it was really interesting the way that you noticed how the women didn’t feel as comfortable–comfortable to speak. But what kind of changes did you see when you came back to the area, and—not even so much what did you see, but how did it feel for you? Obviously, you were thrilled to be back. But what–what did you kind of notice then and how did that shape the way that you carried on with your life? Estrada: Well, I think that I noticed at that time, probably into my maybe second or third year here, that the parents, the mothers were becoming more involved in what was going on. And they were more interested in how to help their children at the time. And that was a–a plus. I had a lot of connections to people that I could call on in the city also that helped out. I mean, yes, we had– I had friends that would bring their sheep in to show what happened to the sheep when they sheared it. And one of the boys that graduated from high school with me ended up to be the fire captain and I would call them and they would come out and do demonstrations during the–that. So, it just–and parents just really wanted to be a part of what was going on. And I think the moms became more involved because dads had to be working. Karasik: Right. And so was that part of the curriculum or was it–were you more free then to say “Hey, I think it would be a good idea for these children to see these kinds of living situations.” Estrada: It was integrated into the curriculum. Yes. I’m going to say it that way. Because I could make a lesson—and I’m not bragging—but I could make a lesson out of, you know, a Hershey’s candy bar and teaching fractions. But it was something that you just made the children feel like they were part of your school community then. Other than that, they didn’t, you know—you go to school, you sit at a desk, you see, you pay attention to what the te—You’re here to learn is what they were taught. And I have to admit that was one of the things that the parents really instilled in them. But we would integrate a lot of the— Karasik: Life skills. Estrada: —skills. Life skills. And we— Transcribed by Melissa Martin 4 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Karasik: Yes. Estrada: We made ice cream, so they’d learn how to measure. And we would—we celebrated all the cultures. You couldn’t celebrate Christmas as Christmas. This was an interesting one. So I incorporated all the different countries that I could think of and incorporated it into finding out about different cultures and their traditions at that time. So that was how I helped. Karasik: And there wasn’t a problem with that? Estrada: Not as long as I did that. I was— Karasik: That you knew of. Estrada: There were—I was observed just like every other teacher had to be observed. I was observed a lot, and everything—I never had any problems with—and we had to turn in lesson plans on it. You know, it was just like “you want me to tell you exactly what I’m going to be doing in every single minute?” “Yes, we do.” “Okay. So, I’ll write down general ones and you can come in and look any time you want.” (laughs) Karasik: Right. Well, it sounds like, uh, it was definitely an–a–a–a plus or an advantage for you to have been from the area, having gone to another area to kind of gain that knowledge including your school. But that experience. And so would you say that it was definitely a benefit for you to feel like more imbedded in the community and you had all those— Estrada: Oh, yes. Karasik: —connections and that made your life a lot more. Estrada: And because I taught for thirty-two years, I actually ended up teaching children of classmates that I had in school. Because a lot a—at that time they weren’t moving out of California. I mean, they weren’t moving out of San Marcos (laughs) as far as that goes. A lot of people stayed. Karasik: And people weren’t moving in as much, as well, as they are now. Estrada: We did–yeah. The–in my later years in teaching, then we had the–the children from Vietnam, the chil—you know, that–the immigrants from there. So— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Estrada: During that Vietnam time. Karasik: And I would assume that you integrate that—integrated them into the class. Or how did you handle some of that? Estrada: (laughs) You’re going to laugh, but I would speak Spanish to them. And I forget–I forget that wasn’t their second lan–their first language. And I would—but I—uh, there’s just one little– one little Vietnamese girl that sticks out in my mind so vividly is because she did not speak English when she started. So, we ran the—well, we were already using an ESL program because of going in to—well, having mostly Spanish children in the classroom at the time. And then, um, she made such a tremendous advance. By the time she graduated from high school, she was Valedictorian. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 5 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Karasik: Oh, isn’t that great! Estrada: Yeah. So, in her–in her twelve years, you know, she was, um–she just moved right up the ladder. But it didn’t hurt her at all that we were speaking to her in Spanish. She picked up some! (laughs) Karasik: At a young age, yes. Estrada: Uh-huh. Karasik: It’s a lot easier. Well, I’d kind of like to move on to—I mean there’s—we could talk about how your work has changed since then. But I do happen to know that you’re a–a basket weaver. I don’t know if it’s a—if there’s certain levels or if you’re a professional. Estrada: I’m a beginner! Karasik: Oh, you are? But you’re very involved with the community and so maybe you could tell us, then. You were probably noticing changes, because certainly after the war and then after the Vietnam War, you know, society was changing considerably. Estrada: Oh, yes! Karasik: But when did you—like with the basket weaving and some of that, has that just been later in your retirement years or was it in—and you were raising children? Estrada: I have two sons, yes. I have two sons that are—I don’t even know—they’re 43 and 40, I think, right now. Forty—no, they’re 41 and 44. One’s going to be 44 next week. And I have to say that I didn’t really become involved in–as much with the tribe until after I retired. So, it’s been in the last thirteen plus years, only because I didn’t feel like I had enough time. I–I know you were a teacher also. But I–And I know that that just took up so much of my time, and my husband used to tell me, “Aren’t you done—Aren’t you off your job clock yet?” Or something like that would always be the remark. Now, he passed away three years ago, and I think that’s when I’ve really become more involved in the basket weaving, only because I felt like I needed to have something more that occupied me than sitting and thinking about what was going on. But, my cousin Diania Caudell says, “Come with me. You’re not working today. Come with me. I’m going to do a presentation at a school,” or “Come and help me.” That’s how it started. And, when we teach in the schools, we do a different style of basket only because it’s a little bit easier and we don’t use traditional plants at that time, because you don’t know if they’ve had any insecticide in them. You don’t know if they—you know, how safe or they’re going to have a reaction. And that’s the last thing you want if you go into a cla–into a group of 50 kids and have to do a–a–a basket and have somebody breaking out with a rash all over them. But so we went to cane products and we do a basic weave, and we make the starts for them. So, that’s what I’ve been doing now. Because we’re doing it in another couple of weeks. We have a couple of groups going on. And then, they just finish the basket. And that has been going with kids from, oh, Montessori aged schools—I mean, Montessori–for preschools all the way through to like eighth grade, and then some—Well, we’ve done it with the Cal State San Marcos and San Diego State also, um, college kids. Because they were in their Native American classes and their Native Studies classes, and we did baskets with Transcribed by Melissa Martin 6 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 them. And they would come and visit what we call Indian Rock in Vista. And it’s a puberty rock for girls, puberty stage. And so, um, they would come up and the–the schools have been–wa–Cal State San Marcos was involved in putting native plants there. And so, we worked very closely with them. I have a cousin now who was a professor at San Diego State, so we’ve become involved with some of her classes too. We also have—we do demonstrations that we call demonstrations where we use the native plants and do the native weave which is a little bit different and a little bit more complex because you have to use the awl in order to get the thread through. And so, we use the–the juncus and the–and the deer grass, and we’re going to be doing that tomorrow! At a school in San Luis Rey. Karasik: Oh, there’s so much there. One thing—when you said “cane,” I–I’m–I’m thinking sugar cane. Estrada: Oh, no. It’s— Karasik: Wha— Estrada: —it’s the in–inside part of bamboo. Karasik: Of bamboo! Okay. Estrada: Yeah. They take it out and they compress it. And so, then it—and it–it comes— Karasik: Now, who’s they. Do you get it—? Estrada: It’s from—we get it from a company in–in–in Huntington Beach. Karasik: So, it is processed. Estrada: It’s processed. Karasik: And they grow those there like they have maybe a ware–a greenhouse of— Estrada: He gets it into a warehouse. We get it from a guy in a warehouse up there. Karasik: Uh-huh. Estrada: Only because, um, it’s just safer— Karasik: It’s trusted. Estrada: —to use with it— Karasik: —a trusted source, yeah. Estrada: I should have brought it inside because I— Karasik: I—yeah. Estrada: I had some outside because I had to bring some for Diania! (laughs) Transcribed by Melissa Martin 7 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Karasik: Oh yeah? And so, the other thing that I think is really interesting when you said “Puberty Rock.” So is this something that was passed down for generations, and do you think that our an— your ancestors, I mean the— Estrada: I’m sure that there were ancestors that went there and you—there’s markings. It’s on Indian Rock Road in Vista, off of Indian Rock. But it has markings and signs, handprints. But then of course, in the modern day, it’s been vandalized and so we’ve worked a lot with different companies and different schools and different technicians in order to find out how to remove a lot of that, because you can’t just go up there and paint over it like they do on the curbs and the houses and the sides of the walls, now. So, it has–(chuckles) it has poison oak around it, on purpose— (laughs) Karasik: Oh! Estrada: —now, so that you can’t go near it. But it was–the—Moro Hill near Camp Pendleton is part of our creation story. And it was from there a short distance to this Indian Rock and that’s where girls would go and do their handprints, or do a s–sign that, you know, a— Karasik: Like a coming-of-age ceremony. Estrada: It’s much different than the boys. The boys go through a much rougher one. I mean, ants, and I don’t know what else. But the girls did, but— Karasik: Did you participate? Estrada: I did not participate in that. And I was trying to get that information out of my mom. She reset—she told me that she remembered doing something, but then that’s it, you know. I never really—before she passed away—never really found out what the “it” was or the “something” was. Karasik: Right. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: And that’s―is there some sadness around that, or just wishing that you― Estrada: Oh, I―definitely now, because I’m learning so much more about the Native culture and the tribe itself, the intertwining of the families, the knowing that I have cousins beyond cousins, this kind of thing, and trying to have somebody right here (taps her right shoulder) on my little shoulder sometimes that would say, “Oh, that’s the daughter of your aunt blah-blah-blah. Or your cousin blah,” and just trying to make sure that I knew. And she guided along that, because she was the–considered the elder in the tribe, when she passed away. And that’s been four years, a little bit over four years now. But, attended everything, and so that’s when I would learn more. I’d say, “I’ve seen them before, mom, but I don’t really remember.” She says, “Well, when we were at your uncle’s house in the valley, that part of his family―” And I thought, okay. Those were the kinds of things that― Transcribed by Melissa Martin 8 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Karasik: When you say, “I’ve seen them,” you’re talking about some of the people that were in your family. Estrada: You would―either the family or people that would be associated with the family. I mean, I was at a Dia de Los Muertos last weekend in Fallbrook, and I thought, “Gee, a lot of these people (turning her head from side to side) I recognize.” And I would stop to think, and I’d have to either go up and ask them, “Have I met you before?” (laughs) Or something like that. So that I would be able to make a connection. Karasik: Mmm. Estrada: And some of them I actually had met before. Karasik: Great. So, was there any, um, ritual that was done in the home, or anything that your parents ever talked about (Estrada shakes her head to indicate no) that was kind of handed down from the ancestors. Because I know there was certainly a time―like you said, sometimes it was more advantageous to be Latin or― Estrada: Mexican. Karasik: ―Mexican. Did you feel like, oh I would–I would love to have known more of the rituals or some of the ceremonies. Estrada: I’m just learning a lot about that now. As a family, we did not practice a lot of that. But then―I say we didn’t practice a lot of that. What I really feel like, maybe in a roundabout way, we did, because we always had large family gatherings. Now, in our tribe, we’ve had a powwow the second weekend of June every year until Covid hit. But it, um,―prior to that, it was―we would be gathering at a–a park, at a water place. I mean we were up at some creek up in Pamu―the Pauma area. Just places where―and it would be huge family gatherings, and, um, because there were eleven in my mom’s family, and then their kids and down through that, so― And then, besides the other brothers. One brother–one of my grandfather’s brother—had all daughters. I think there’s eleven or twelve of those. And then the other brother had six or seven. So that they―it–you know, so you just kind of (makes pulling apart gesture with her hands)―and then when you get these families all together― (makes pushing together gesture with her fists) My grand–my paren–my grandfather’s fa–family lived in Oceanside. And so, he was kind of the in-between the San Luis Rey brother and the Cardiff brother. So, it made a―The people in my mother’s family―I felt like she was a–a mediator or the in-between person to get to know this brother’s kids with this brother’s kids (gestures pulling from the left and the right into the center). And that’s kind of what I’m doing now. Karasik: Interesting. Estrada: Following in the footsteps, I guess you’d say. Karasik: Of your mother. How–what a beautiful way to honor her. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 9 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Estrada: Well, and on top of that, I have my husband’s family, who is from Pala and San Jacinto area, and trying to get them to know the rest of this family. So, you know, it’s always “I’m going to call Roberta, because she’ll know.” Well, if Roberta doesn’t know, she tries to figure it out and find out who it is, you know, make a connection. Karasik: Right. So, I wanted to―I guess I would use the word “pride.” Was―because the–the times have changed now, di–but, when you were younger or compared to now, was the certain pride about being Native American? And then there were times where that was not talked about, like where you said it was easier to say I’m Mexican. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: And, um, whe–where is that now, and h–how has that changed over the years? And do you feel much more–more pride and feel that it’s more important? Or― Estrada: I think it’s very important, because there are seven Luseño tribes in the area. And San Luis Rey is the only unrecognized tribe. We are still trying to get the recognition process done. But I think we’re working at it together. We may not be federally recognized, but we are recognized by the people and the cities in the area. Last night, we went for a proclamation from the city of Oceanside. And, um, I think there were ten or twelve of us there last night, at the City Council meeting. And, um, it just made me feel like, “Oh! This is getting good.” Because now they’re becoming more involved. For a while, it’s always the same group. And that group is getting up there in years. And we need to pass it along. And we’re trying to―right now, I’m working with a younger cousin who has, um, aspirations to involve the younger people, the thirty-and-unders people, to get in–more involved. And so, we’re working together and getting those―I couldn’t believe the amount of people that were there that were in that age group. And then at the―We went–After that, we went to the Inyan–Indian monument that’s in San Luis Rey Mission cemetery, in the old cemetery part. There’s an Indian monument, and we had quite a large group there, that we put candles out and all the great-grandmothers and uncles and aunts, and so forth, around there. It was very, very touching moment, to feel–to feel that so many of these people―And then, at the end they were even saying, “Well, we’d like to know more about this. Or maybe learn about that.” Because there was a period of time when―I know my boys― Karasik: I wanted to ask you about your boys, if they’ve claimed their culture. Estrada: My boys did not know a lot about the Native Americans to start with. Karasik: Those two pages in the history book weren’t enough in eighth grade? (chuckles) Estrada: No. And it–they were not. And now they’re, um―they don’t live in the area. They both live in Arizona now. But they’re―because of their work, and they will ask questions, though. And they will want, say, “Oh, are we going to do that this year? Oh, I think I’ll come for powwow. Are we going to have it?” “Mom, I don’t think I’m quite sure on what to do with this.” But they both learned how to make their frybread. (chuckles) Karasik: Yes. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 10 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Estrada: That’s something that was stuck with them, and that was there. So― Karasik: Yeah. I think it’s really interesting how throughout the decades, if you will, it’s been sort of not in fashion― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: ―to look at your culture. Now, it’s very much in fashion. Estrada: Land acknowledgment, right now, is one of the big things. And so, you’ll hear that when you go to different, um, occasions, or different presentations. They’ll say, “We want to acknowledge that we are on Native land.” We want to― Karasik: Absolutely. Estrada: ―you know. That’s more going on now, and you see that in their speeches. Whereas you didn’t see that before. Karasik: Absolutely. I–I find that in–in, just when I’m on a Zoom―in fact, my name―and then I put what city I’m in, and then I put what stolen lands that I occupy. Be― Estrada: Mm-hmm. Right now, we’re on (gestures quotes with her fingers) Karasik: Kume― Estrada: ―Native land. We’re on Ku―we’re―well, yes. We’re not on Kumeyaay land. We’re on―we’re in between, now. It’s between the Luseño and the Kumeyaay area. Karasik: And so, Luseño is sort of the umbrella of the six or seven tribes― Estrada: Seven tribes. Karasik: ―that you were talking about. And the recognition―are there certain aspects of it from the government or from the tr–tribe itself? Estrada: Government. Karasik: From the government. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: So, the tribes, for sure, recognize you, but it’s some kind of a governmental requirements to― Estrada: Yeah. There’s a lot of r–there’s a lot of red tape, you may as well say― Karasik: Right, right. Estrada: ―that you have to jump through. Karasik: And–and is― Transcribed by Melissa Martin 11 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Estrada: You have to have proof of being a government from a–for a period of time. And so, that’s one of the things. Karasik: Of being like a sovereign― Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: ―nation or–or― Estrada: Yeah. Karasik: You know. Estrada: Where you have a―where you do things then. So, you’ll find if they’re doing any activities, you’ll find people that are recording that, so they’ll have a recording of what’s going on now. And― Karasik: Documentation― Estrada: ―documentation of all of that. Karasik: ―every―Right. Estrada: Going back to when we were talking about the basket weaving, we do a lot of things with the–the schools now. And so then, before we start with that, we tell them where we’re from. Yes, we know that this part―now, like when we went to do it at San Diego State. Yes, we are on Kumeyaay land right now. We were invited to do this. And what we use for the schools is a Cherokee style. And so, we were given permission from Tekua, so that it was–would be available. Giving―I don’t want to say permission―I want to say you recognize where everything came from. You don’t say it’s yours if it’s not yours. Karasik: So, there’s a respect for the origin of it, and then there’s also a–a, like you said, a recognition or a–um, yeah. I–I’m–I’m thinking of so many things. I–You said “tekua.” Is that some organization, or what― Estrada: It’s the Cherokee, Cherokee band. Karasik: Oh! Okay. And who’s that umbrella? Estrada: Cherokee. Karasik: Ok. And then Tekua is underneath― Estrada: Yeah. They’re part of the Cherokee. Karasik: ―that. And then are they a little bit more going east, like to Arizona? Or are they― Estrada: No. They’re, um, more, um, Oklahoma area. Karasik: Oh, right. Okay. Estrada: In that area. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 12 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Karasik: Okay. Um, oh, there’s just so much there. And you’ve really been wonderful to kind of branch into some of the questions that I wanted to ask you. Um, I think I–I want you to tell me how you feel about doing this oral history, and how important it is. What–what are–what kinds of things do you want our descendants to know, and how important will that be for–for them, and that’s why we’re doing this oral history. And then, maybe you can add in there some of your accomplishments, if there’s any regrets that you might have had, um, and kind of how your life path has changed, I think more since your retirement, and how that feels for you to, um, be more involved and have that pride and want to really pass that on and tell this story. Estrada: Well, it’s interesting, because I do have two twenty-year-old grandchildren, a sixteenyear-old, and a six-year-old, and trying to make them understand their heritage at the same time. And so, yes, I’m doing that with them, but I hope that other people are letting their children know about their culture and heritage, no matter what culture and heritage it is. And, um, having the pride, not hiding yourself. And it’s important to know that one of the things that—I mean, San Marcos―I have to say. I don’t live in San Marcos. I lived in San Marcos at one time. I did after I was married. Also, I lived there for a short time before we moved into Escondido and then Vista. So, we’ve lived in North County. But it’s always had a place in my heart. And the people are just so interested in what everybody else is doing. I grew up in this area being friends with people from the egg ranch—Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch—and just having, you know, and like all those race horses over here on the other side, and then the farmers on the other side. So, it was a big diverse. And I need to have my boys tell their kids that there’s more to it than Minecraft on the computer. Karasik: Uh, absolutely. Estrada: And so― Karasik: So, when you said egg ranch, it was like, “oh, there’s probably a whole story there.” So, some of those, the egg ranch and the others that you will mention, they’re still here. So that’s― Estrada: (shakes her head). Karasik: Oh, they’re not. Oh. Estrada: C.S.U. S.M. was–is built― Karasik: On― Estrada: ―on the egg ranch, on Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch. Karasik: Oh! On all those lands. How was that? Estrada: It was hard at first. Karasik: Were there burial grounds there as well― Estrada: Um, probably. Karasik: ―that we know of? Transcribed by Melissa Martin 13 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Estrada: No. Probably, probably. In the extension that they were building at San Marcos High School, they’re–in where they’re working, where the construction is now, there will be a lot of orange fencing. In the Creek Project in San Marcos, too, there’s a lot of orange fencing, because that’s all—the Natives lived along the water source, and I know that my mom’s aunts worked and–and my mom—I don’t think my mom’s mother did but—my mom’s aunts were in a lot of those camps, cooking for the people that were, you know, working on, or living in these areas, or working in these areas. Karasik: Yeah. I’m curious there, because I–I know back, you know, pre-modern technology, they often moved because first they respected the land. And there were different growing periods and animals. There are all kinds of reasons that they would move. And so, that would be then sometimes how the women might go there and then support that, or― Estrada: Ours went–Our tribe went from the ocean to the mountains, because they would go up in the mountains and collect the acorns and so forth. But my grandfather’s father was a sheep herder. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Estrada: And he would–would go up in that area. His―My grandmother’s brothers were miners and helped at the mining area in the Pala area. So, you know there was this way, and this way. San Luis Rey Mission is built on our Indian village site. The, um―they were given the opportunity to move up to the mountains or just spread (indicates spreading out in groups with her hands) and diverse themselves, and that’s what they did. A lot of them went into the farming and into construction and things like that. Karasik: So, you heard about your mother’s mother and father, or your–even like your husband’s parents and grandparents. Those were just stories that were kind of passed down. Do you feel― Estrada: It’s all oral story. Karasik: Yeah. And–and so that oral history, you― Estrada: Is important. Karasik: ―Absolutely. Estrada: It’s not all recorded, except (points to her head) up here now. Karasik: And that’s a lot why we’re doing it here. Estrada: That’s a big reason why I’m very into what’s going on right now. Yes. Karasik: And I think you’ve done a fantastic job. Estrada: Oh. Karasik: We could go on and on. I also think it’s ironic that, um, Cal State San Marcos, who’s doing this project, is on that land. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 14 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: So, in a way, it is–they are giving back. Estrada: They’re sharing. Karasik: Which is–is really good. Estrada: The best part of this whole thing is this “site” (gestures air quotes) that we’re in today was actually on the elementary school that I went to. It was our cafeteria. Karasik: This specific building? Estrada: This specific building. It was our cafeteria, and we had our (gestures quotes with her hands) “dances” inside this building. We did our choir from the stage. Karasik: This stage? Estrada: This stage. The only thing that’s different about it now is there used to be a kitchen connected. Because when we were in maybe fourth grade up, you could be a–you could be a cafeteria helper. Karasik: Sure. Estrada: And, um, you’d help serve at the lunch line, and I did that. But it― Karasik: It’s interesting. When you said “dancing.” So, it was okay to dance. And that dancing, was it more like “American culture?” Or was― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: It was. Estrada: Yes. It had nothing to do–do (shaking her head) with the Natives at all. Karasik: Okay. Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: Yeah. Um, I could talk about that, but this is your story. Estrada: (laughs) Karasik: Um, so, I’m thinking there’s not very many regrets. It sounds like you’ve really had a wonderful life. Estrada: I think after my retirement, um, I became more involved and then it made me feel even more proud of my heritage. Karasik: Yes. Estrada: And then the–on top of that, um, I made a lot of connections to different family members and my husband’s family, and trying to get that all focused on, so that I could Transcribed by Melissa Martin 15 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 intermingle that so I could pass that on to my boys who could pass it on to their children. And I really feel that by doing things like this and coming out and talking about it―I know that when I first started, Diania would say, “Let’s go.” Okay. I’d go and I’d stand in the background. Well, I listened a lot. Well, that’s how I learned my Spanish in the first place, because my grandfather sold to―he sold the rabbits and the guy that came to pick up the rabbits couldn’t speak English and he would speak Spanish to him. And here would be Roberta by his side. So, I mean, he was one of the influential people, I’m learning, that second language that was so important in this area. But, um, now I’m interested in trying to pick up the Luseño language, the Chamteela. I can’t even say it. Because we’re called the Payómkawichum, which are the people of the west. And so, it goes all along the western coast and in–into the mountain. Karasik: And is there anyone still around― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: ―to teach some of that? Estrada: Yes. I have to take my time and go to those classes. Karasik: So― Estrada: Right now, they’re just starting some Zoom classes for―they called it for the young people. But there’s a lot of people that want to learn it beyond that. So, we’ll see what happens. But they’re doing them on Zoom right now. Karasik: You― Estrada: Because you need to hear it. Karasik: I’m sure, yes. Estrada: You need to hear it. You can’t do it from the book― Karasik: You have to― Estrada: ―and read it. And, um, I’ve got several little kid’s books that I’ve gotten from my grandkids that have the English on one side and the Luseño language on the other side and yes, you can do it that way, but you still don’t hear the correct pronunciation. Karasik: Yeah. That’s really important. The–it’s–I’m feeling like in some ways it’s full circle. You know. It’s coming back full circle, and now a–a–the pride is really more known amongst― Estrada: I think it’s more evident now and you can feel it. Karasik: And even outside of your culture. Estrada: Yeah, you can see it coming back. Because looking out at the people that were sitting at the City Hall last night, and them paying attention to what was being said about our culture, about ourselves, by the captain at the time. Mel was talking and you just look out at the people and you could see them really into what was being said about what was going on there, so― Transcribed by Melissa Martin 16 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Karasik: That must feel wonderful. Estrada: Yeah. And so, I mean, it makes you feel. I told them that. I told somebody else, after the Dia de Los Muertos thing last night. I just go, “You know, I really feel very proud to be part of this group.” And it ma–it makes you feel like― Karasik: Right. Estrada: ―you’re doing something good. Karasik: Absolutely. I’m so happy for you. Estrada: (chuckles) Karasik: And so, I guess, um, in closing, obviously if there’s anything else that you’d really like to say, but I feel like we’ve had a–a really wonderful conversation. And I hope you do as well. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: But if you―you know, there’s a lot of work done now too, around, beyond the veil. Like people have passed and sometimes people want to get in touch with them, or wish that they could have, you know, tell― Estrada: Conversations. Karasik: Right! And so, if you had that―if some of our–your descendants had the opportunity to talk with you, which is a lot of what this will be for them― Estrada: Oh, yes. Karasik: ―what–what would you tell them that is most important, the things that they should really pay attention to, and the things that don’t be so concerned with. Like, what’s the most important thing, particularly involving your culture and how they want to live their lives that– that honors your–your history, your heritage. Estrada: I would say―well, I do this to my boys right now. I tell them, you know, “You need to live your life like you feel. But you also need to remember and respect all the adults.” I mean, as we were raising the two boys, Richard and I did not allow them to speak out of turn to–to them. Not to say harsh things or anything like that. And I think that that’s fallen away right now. And that’s really something important that needs to be brought back, is the respect for your ancestors. Whether they be living or not. And I hope that this is one of the programs that shows the importance of the lives of people that have been and what they’ve gone through. I mean, nothing’s been real easy for me, but I have to say that with the support that you have, no matter where it comes from, it’s important that they pick it up. Karasik: And how important that support was in your life. Had you been, for example, stayed back in Wisconsin―although they have some pretty strong tribal activities― Transcribed by Melissa Martin 17 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Estrada: I have―my dad has got a brother-in-law that his whole family, all his nieces and nephews, are really into it. But it’s not a―I guess it’s because it’s not immediately connected. Maybe that’s what it is? I mean “in bloodline” means nothing. Or how much blood―”quantum” does not mean anything. It means–what means something–what should mean something to them is that they were related to someone who spoke up and tried to help others in the area. And that’s what we’re doing as a tribe, non-federally recognized tribe. Yes, we have a California recognition, and basically that’s because of water rights. But the Califor–the federally recognized tribes, some of them, look down on you now. But who’s doing the work? Just keep plugging along and making sure that you’re doing what you think is best for yourself and your family. Karasik: That’s beautiful. Who’s doing the work. Estrada: Yeah. Karasik: Yes. Well, I think this is probably a good place to stop― Estrada: Okay. Karasik: ―all though we could go on. And we’ll see what happens with the archives, and what else we might want to do. Like, it would be really wonderful to videotape a basket weaving class. I don’t know if that’s possible. And I’m certainly wanting to attend and–and learn more, but― Estrada: There will be some on November twelfth. That’s basket weaving. Karasik: Is that the same day as the Luseño honoring that? Estrada: (nods) Karasik: Yes. Estrada: Yes, it is. Karasik: Oh, and we didn’t mention, which I thought was so wonderful, that this happens to be Native American― Estrada: Native American month. Karasik: ―American Heritage month. So, we’re celebrating and honoring it. Estrada: (chuckles) Karasik: And we have one of the best elders here. Estrada: Oh, thank you. Karasik: Oh, that was one question I wanted to ask you. The word “crone,” does that come from your culture? Estrada: The what? Karasik: Crone? Transcribed by Melissa Martin 18 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 Estrada: No. Karasik: Okay. It’s an elder woman. And I’m not really sure where it comes from. I think it might be Celtic or another matriarchal based culture. Estrada: Uh-huh. Karasik: But I think that the respect for the elders in your culture is–is very strong. Estrada: It’s very strong. Karasik: And that’s really so important. And that–I think what the children―which you have shown in your family and with all your–all your relations. Karasik: Omitaki. Estrada: (laughs) A lot of them. Karasik: Yeah. That’s wonderful. Well, thank you so very much. Estrada: And thank you for having me. Karasik: Yes, and again this is Roberta Estrada. And we are in San Marcos at the Heritage Museum here and this is all part of the Cal State San Marcos Archive pro–Oral History program. Estrada: Oral history. Karasik: Yes. Thank you very much! Transcribed by Melissa Martin 19 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 GLOSSARY Alvin Dunn School (pg.1) Cardiff (pg.9) Caudell, Diania (pg.6) Chamteela (pg.16) Creek Project (pg.14) Dia de Los Muertos (pg.9) Duenos (pg.2) Foussat (pg.2) Frybread (pg. 11) Indian Rock Road (pg.8) Kumeyaay (pg.11) La Mirada Academy (pg.1) Life Credential (pg.4) Luseño (pg.10) Marine Corps Hospital (pg.1) Mel (pg.17) Moro Hill (pg.8) Normal School (pg.4) Omitaki (pg.19) Pala (pg.2) Palomar (pg.4) Pamu (pg.9) Pauma (pg.9) Payómkawichum (pg.16) Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch (pg.13) San Jacinto (pg.10) Transcribed by Melissa Martin 20 2023-04-06 �ROBERTA ESTRADA TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-11-03 San Luis Rey Mission (pg.2) San Marcos High School (pg.14) Tekua (pg.12) Tribal Council (pg.3) Transcribed by Melissa Martin 21 2023-04-06 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Estrada, Roberta. Interview Transcript. November 3. 2022. Description An account of the resource Roberta Estrada is a Luiseño woman from the San Luis Rey Mission Band of Mission Indians. She grew up in Vista, CA and was educated throughout the North County school districts. She attended college, earning both Spanish and General Education degrees. She taught ESL in the San Marcos Unified District for thirty-two years. After retirement, she became more involved in the Indigenous community and learned basketry. She accompanies her cousin, Diania Caudell, on school group presentations and teaches audiences about basket-weaving and native plants. Estrada is proud of her Luiseño heritage, and continues reconnecting with family members and getting involved in Indigenous community activities. Estrada also discusses in her interview, the process of tribal recognition with the United States government, teaching English to Vietnam refugees, and the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roberta Estrada Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Suzy Karasik Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-03 Subject The topic of the resource Basket making Education, ESL Endemic plants -- Southern California Luiseño Indians Refugees -- Vietnam Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Roberta Estrada License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context EstradaRoberta_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-03_transcript Community history Native American experience North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience