16 10 181 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/94d2d0d7cb9c43df70faee7a952cb115.pdf 6eb9d98c96c0eaf4368f2bf5c86aa082 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spackman, Amy. Interview transcript, February 23, 2017. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Spackman, Amy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Downie, Judith Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) El Cajon (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href=" https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SpackmanAmy_DownieJudith_2017-02-23_ADAtranscript Subject The topic of the resource Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Description An account of the resource Amy Spackman began working in the tasting room at Mission Brewing in San Diego after switching careers from being a preschool teacher. In this interview she discusses her experience breaking into the San Diego craft brewing industry, her continuing education, and what it is like to be one of few women in the industry. License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Brewchive(r) Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Stella Clark OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ClarkStella_VisintainerSean_2023-08-09.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Clark, Stella. Interview August 9, 2023. SC027-46 01:26:18 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm California State University San Marcos ; Education, Higher ; California State University San Marcos. Modern Language Studies Department ; Kansas University ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; California State University San Bernadino ; San Bernadino (Calif.) ; Roma (Motion picture : 2018) ; Colonia Roma (Mexico City, Mexico) ; Mexicans--United States ; Mexican Americans--California--San Diego County ; Mexican Americans--Education (Higher) ; Immigrants--United States Stella Clark Sean Visintainer Video ClarkStella_VisintainerSean_2023-08-09.mp4 1.0:|22(4)|31(19)|44(8)|53(8)|72(13)|102(3)|117(3)|127(8)|135(7)|146(14)|162(6)|173(10)|186(7)|201(5)|212(11)|223(6)|238(8)|248(16)|258(10)|268(12)|282(4)|293(3)|304(10)|316(14)|328(9)|338(3)|347(11)|361(6)|377(13)|388(5)|400(13)|415(19)|425(7)|441(7)|451(3)|460(16)|469(15)|481(10)|491(6)|502(15)|517(16)|527(15)|537(3)|548(8)|560(4)|572(12)|591(5)|601(16)|611(14)|621(6)|635(6)|645(16)|653(18)|672(6)|680(15)|690(4)|701(10)|717(3)|731(7)|739(14)|752(5)|763(8)|772(16)|784(6)|794(14)|817(15)|827(12)|837(4)|848(13)|857(17)|866(3)|884(5)|896(4)|906(5)|915(11)|927(6)|940(12)|953(17)|962(9)|972(11)|984(11)|997(13)|1006(14)|1018(5)|1032(13)|1049(9)|1056(3) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/110ee8dd522d39f94e58d60fb1d44cf4.mp4 Other video english 0 Interview Introduction Interview with Dr. Stella Clark, August 9th, 2023. 0 44 Education and life synopsis Stella Clark is originally from Mexico City and moved to the U.S., East Lansing Michigan to be precise, in the eighth grade. She then moved to Oxford Mississippi in which she would be there from her high school years and into college. She discusses the culture shock she experienced and how schools were segregated at the time. Clark then moved to Kansas and received a masters and a PhD at Kansas University. She would eventually meet her husband while attending the university and then move to California and got her first job at California State University, San Bernardino. PhD ; Masters ; Mexico City ; Jose Clark ; Oxford, Mississipi ; East Lansing, Michigan ; California State University, San Bernadino 0 331 Living in Colonia Roma/Moving to U.S. Clark is from Colonia Roma, Mexico and her father first came to the U.S. to pursue his PhD in Texas. Once he finished, Clark's family moved to Lansing, Michigan where her father intended that the whole family would eventually achieve PhDs. Her mother received a PhD in Spanish just like Clark would in the future, and her father received a PhD in economics. Clark then goes on to describe her love for Mexico and how urbane it was compared to where she lived in the United States. She explains the difficulty of living in Michigan in regards to the social and cultural customs. Clark would soon move to Mississippi where she the ethos was similar to Mexico. PhD ; Texas ; Michigan State ; Mississippi ; Lansing, Michigan ; Colonia Roma ; Mexico ; cultural ; social customs 0 949 Spanish skills/Majoring in French Clark explains how she would maintain her Spanish speaking skills within the U.S. by reading novels. She eventually would earn her bachelor's degree in French and would pursue a graduate degree in French as well at KU. However, the department split and she would end up receiving a graduate degree in Spanish. This is where she would take multiple Spanish classes in which Clark not only maintained but advanced her Spanish speaking skills. Clark also spoke Spanish at home and would go on to marry a Cuban immigrant, whom she also spoke Spanish with. Spanish ; French ; Kansas University ; Ole Miss University ; Mississippi ; Cuban ; Married ; Graduate school ; Bachelors 0 1367 Teenage years/Finding her place Clark discusses how the U.S. education system underwent a transformative shift, evolving from a highly regimented structure to a greater emphasis on fostering individual student success. There was more flexibility and freedom within the classroom but still some rigidity that did not line up. Clark explains how she developed faster than most girls and it made it challenging for her to get along with the other teenage girls. It was not until she moved to Oxford, Mississippi that she would feel like she found her place and would meet her childhood best friend. regimented ; education shift ; transformation ; culture shock ; rigidity ; teenage ; mississippi ; 1950's 0 1910 Getting her PhD/ Meeting her husband Clark went to Kansas University (KU) to pursue her PhD in French which would become a PhD in Spanish. She explains how she met her husband at KU and would get married only a year after seeing one another. The main reason for the quick marriage was due to how conservative society was at the time and how she could jeopardize her position at the university. PhD ; Kansas University ; Latin America ; Marriage 0 2374 Clark's first professional position After receiving her PhD Clark would land her first job at California State University San Bernardino and her husband would get a job at the library at the same university. She explains how she would reject various administrative jobs for the sake of her husband. Eventually she would encourage him to go to graduate school so he could have a career out of being a librarian. Clark explains how her and her husband complement one another in terms of their professions. administrative ; career ; PhD 0 2695 Moving to California/Starting at CSUSM Clark explains how California is in such close proximity to Mexico and how it is advertised as paradise. She recalls how she made her switch from working at CSUSB to California State University San Marcos (CSUSM) from her desire to work in administration. However the position at CSUSM was a lot more intense since she had to create a program from scratch. 0 3049 Creating CSUSM's language lab Clark was tasked with creating a language lab at CSUSM and used her connections from CSUSB to help her build the lab. She explains how she built the lab and what was required from her. Clark learned that in order to get the best things one has to wheel and deal and ask for things that would make them excel in their positions. She explains how her focus was to help students become versatile in their career, but also highlighted the importance of faculty supporting them within their journey. &#13 ; language lab ; creating department 0 3602 Clark's dissertation Clark explains how her dissertation in graduate school was very unconventional and all the struggles she went through in order to get it approved. She was using an American method of close reading on Mexican literature in which analyzed the patterns of an individual. She explains how this would later help her in her career and help her understand individuals. dissertation ; academia ; graduate ; levi strauss ; spanish literature ; american literature 0 3926 Challenges of creating a department Clark describes the biggest challenges she experienced when founding the department at CSUSM. She explains how faculty on the campus often forgot that they are working for a community in which the students pay for their own schooling and support themselves. Clark admires how these students genuinely care for their education and want to learn in which was different to the students she taught at KU. She compares how different the students values were at CSUSM than to Kansas University. public education ; Kansas University ; student success 0 4251 What Clark's students have taught her Clark explains the challenges her students would go through but still managed to achieve their academic goals. She has a deep respect for CSUSM's students due to their resilience and desire to actually learn. She explains how she would buy books for her students who may not have been able to afford them and allow them to keep it for their own personal library. hardworking ; resiliance ; student success ; CSUSM student body 0 4643 "Roma" (the movie) Clark explains how the movie Roma perfectly describes what her life was like growing up in Roma, Mexico. The movie allowed her to understand the life of the working class in Mexico and see them from a different vantage point. She also explains how living in the U.S. as an exile how you always will feel a sense of foreignness. exile ; foreignness ; displacement ; mexico ; Roma 0 Video Dr. Stella Clark grew up in Colonia Roma, Mexico City, and moved to the U.S. in her early childhood. She grew up in a family who valued education ; both her parents received a PhD and she was expected to get one as well. Clark received her bachelor's degree in French and her master's and PhD degrees in Spanish. She began her professional career at California State University, San Bernardino and eventually applied to California State University San Marcos, where she founded the Modern Languages Department and created the university's language lab. Clark discusses how she made an impact not only on her students learning but life as well by encouraging all to pursue their academic dreams, and on the struggles that working students and women students face in getting an eduction. Visintainer: All right. Clark: Okay. Visintainer: All right. Thank you, Stella. This is Sean Visintainer, head of Special Collections at California State University San Marcos. Today I'm interviewing Dr. Stella Clark for our University Archives oral history collection. The date is August 9th, 2023, and this recording is happening on Zoom. Dr. Clark, thank you so much for interviewing with us today. Clark: I'm happy to be here answering your questions and having a chat with you. Visintainer: Yes. So we're really happy that you could join me for this interview as well. And so I wanted to start off talking about your childhood. And I understand you're originally from Mexico? Clark: I am. Visintainer: Where from, where in Mexico are you from? Clark: Well, I was born someplace else, but I should say that I was brought up in Mexico City. So, it's actually a big city. From the time that I was born, I was taken there. So it's not, you know, I mean it's--I didn't really change my life that much. Because actually Mexico City was a lot more advanced than where I went to live here in the United States. Because it was a city of five million. And I went to live in a town that had maybe twenty thousand? So, my dad was a college professor and he moved the whole family in the fifties. And I came along with the family. And my first experience in the United States was when I was in the eighth grade, in East Lansing, Michigan. So, it was quite a culture shock for me. Not because of Mexico to the US but because of the big city to the small town. And then we ended up living in Mississippi for most of, most of my high school years and my college years. So I ended, I started with the Midwest and then ended up in the South. And that is the deep south, Oxford, Mississippi. That's where I went to high school. And I went to college there. Visintainer: Okay. Clark: So that was a big culture shock, not because of the US thing, but because I came from the Midwest where I was getting kind of adjusted to US life in a small town to the big, to a smaller town in the south. And there was segregation at the time. So, of course I went to the white high school. Just because of the way I look. They never, they didn't think in the South, you're either black or you're white. At least at the time. They didn't go into any refinements of, you know, mestizo or mixed race or anything like that. So I ended up going to a white high school, and then I went to Ole Miss, the University of Mississippi. That's where I got my first degree. And then I ended up again in the Midwest, ‘cause I went to the University of Kansas for my graduate studies. And that's where another culture shock, because going from the deep South to the real--to the corn belt, you know? That was very conservative very, kind of a dull place to be, except that Lawrence, Kansas was a wonderful, wonderful town. And I got my degrees from the University of Kansas, both degrees, the MA and the PhD. And I met my husband there. And that was another culture shock because he's Cuban. And he was, you know, brought up very Cuban, even though he had lived in the US quite a bit. And so, we got married in 1967, so we just celebrated our fifty-sixth anniversary. Visintainer: Congratulations. Clark: Thank you. Yeah. We--our wedding date was August fifth, so we just celebrated it by doing nothing. (laughter) Visintainer: That's how we just celebrated ours as well. Clark: Oh, congratulations to you. (Visintainer laughs) Visintainer: Thank you. Clark: So anyway, it was a, it was a very pleasant time at the University of Kansas. And then my whole--my dream was always to come to California. So, when I was--I started looking for a job. I applied to a lot of places in California and I sent like five hundred letters, something like that. And then my first job, full-time faculty job was at Cal State San Bernardino. And I ended up staying there for nineteen years. So that was a whole early career, was at Cal State San Bernardino. Do you have any questions so far? Visintainer: I do. I actually wanted to circle back to Mexico. Clark: Okay. Visintainer: What neighborhood in Mexico City where you from? Clark: Colonia Roma. Visintainer: Okay. Okay. Clark: Have you seen the movie? Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. I saw Roma. And I've been there myself. It's a beautiful area. Clark: I lived there. I lived about five blocks from where that movie was shot. Visintainer: Okay. And that movie took place, when was that movie? It was the sixties, or? Clark: That was in the seventies. Visintainer: In the seventies. Clark: He (director Alfonso Cuarón) had to change a lot of things. He even had to do the (building) facades, but there are a lot of places that are the same as they were when I was a kid there in that neighborhood. And it was, it was a good place to live. My mother owned two townhouses there in Roma. So that's where I spent most of my childhood. But then she sold the houses when we moved to the US, for $5,000 each. And now, I think that would be in the millions. Visintainer: Yeah. Probably. Clark: It's a desirable neighborhood. Visintainer: Yes. Yeah. Definitely. What were--so why did your parents decide to emigrate? Clark: Well, my dad was a college professor, and college professors don't work out in Mexico very well ‘cause they have to have other careers. They don't pay that much at the university, so they have to have a second career that, like a day job, you know? And so, and my dad was German. That's a long history. I don't, I don't even want to get into that because it's really complicated and interesting. But so he, you know, he married my mother and they decided that they, he wanted to get his PhD in Texas. At the University of Texas. So he went, came to the US to get his PhD and left the family behind. But he started taking us one by one. First he took my mom, then my little brother who was very young. And the whole time we were staying with relatives, so. Anyway, so we ended up finally the whole family in the US in 1956. The whole family in Lansing, Michigan. But we came piecemeal. So it was, you know, staying with aunts and uncles. And living in different areas where I was sort of the, I wasn't really in my, with my family. So we were kind of aimless. Because, you know, since I was with so many different relatives, but my dad had a purpose. And so, he said, when he brought the whole family, he was gonna create a goal for us. And we all ended up studying, you know, higher, getting higher degrees. Having careers. And so, because of my dad. He also made my mother get a PhD. So, we all got degrees at the University of Mississippi first. Visintainer: Okay. And what were your parents' PhDs in? Clark: My mom was in Spanish, like me, and my dad was in economics. He actually turned out to be a pretty well-known professor in the, in Latin American economics. And he was very productive, being a good German. He wrote a lot of books. And he ended up at the University of West Florida. That was his last job. So at the time, professors were not used to staying in one place. They were used to going from job to job to improve their status. And so, he was an assistant professor at Michigan State, and then Mississippi hired him as a full professor. So he jumped a rank, so to speak. And then you know, I always miss Mexico. Even now I miss Mexico. I don't go back very much. But to me, that's just home, you know, or something. I never could get, could develop a love like I have in my heart for Mexico, for any other places where I've lived. Visintainer: What is— Clark: Yes? Visintainer: Oh, I'm sorry to interrupt. What is it that you, what is it that you miss or that has that, that fills that place in your heart when you think of Mexico? Clark: It's hard to describe because when I get together with relatives from down there, I'm immediately at home. You know, it's as if I had never left. And I grew up with a cousin who was my age, and I just hated to leave her so much. She, we were best friends and I always wanted to see her. And I wasn't always able to go back there. And so, you know, I really missed her so much. And just the family relations, the--also Mexico City was so urbane. I always felt like I was kind of in the sticks in the towns that we lived in, in the US. And I would go to Mexico and my cousin was all, you know, she has this hairdo, and I'd say, “What is that?” I've never seen anything like it. Because it was a big city. So you live, it was kind of like being in New York, you know, like a New Yorker living in New York. So, I miss that aspect of it. But I just, I didn't even like Mexican things, you know like Mexican, so-called Mexican food. I never really liked it that much, but as soon as I moved to the US I just, I was missing tortillas. We had to get tortillas--in Michigan, we had to get tortillas in the can. Visintainer: Okay. Clark: And there was no place to go eat anything that was typical. And in my middle school, nobody! Nobody, but nobody spoke Spanish. Not even high school Spanish or anything. So nobody tried to help me out as I was developing. So I was getting used to living there. And I remember that this, the gym class made us, they made us take a shower. And I did not wanna take my clothes off in front of people I did know. Even though they were young girls, but they were strangers. So I did not wanna take my clothes off. So I went to the teacher, tried in my best bad English, tried to explain to her that I didn't wanna take my clothes off in front of my classmates. And she said, “That's too bad. You gotta take a shower. So, you can't just be in gym and then be all sweaty and go back to class.” So I would leave my, my bra and my panties on, and then I would have to go the rest of the day with wet underwear. So, that was just a really bad year for me. (laughs) Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I told my mom, and she finally, you know, I didn't wanna tell my mom I was embarrassed. Finally, she went to talk to the teacher, but she said, “No, no, she has to adjust to the,” you know, it's that mentality that, “No, no, no, she has to adjust.” You know, “Everybody's the same here.” So I had wet underwear the whole year. And in Michigan, that's not pleasant when it's winter. Visintainer: No, that sounds like it would be tough. Clark: Anyway, so that was, and I made friends in Michigan, but I don't know, it wasn't the same. It wasn't my cousins. It wasn't my, you know, I wasn't in the same school as my brother and sister, so that was a bad year for me. And then when we moved to Mississippi everything changed. It was, because Mississippi, believe it or not, the the ethos is more like Mexico (laughs) Because of the stratification, the social stratification. That you were kind of more with middle class people or whatever. And so, I don't know. I hate to say it, because it sounds, you know, I don't wanna admit to anything like that. So anyway, but Oxford was a small town, but it was very friendly, and it was very, they were very welcoming to us. So, everything changed. And that's when I finally started to adjust to living in the US. The people were real characters. Our English teacher in the high school was married to Faulkner's, William Faulkner's best friend. So she was, she was such a character. She would say, “Don't let the lighting bug bite you because you'll never get rid of it.” (laughter) So anyway, so it was, it was a different world. And I finally got used to living there, and I started to miss Mexico a little bit less and less every year. Visintainer: You mentioned that you were learning English when you came to the US if I understood correctly. So— Clark: Yes. I knew a lot of English already, because I had English from the time I was in kindergarten until the eighth grade when I came to the US. So— Visintainer: So you were learning English and kind of in class, I assume, as well as being immersed in the English language. I was curious about your Spanish-language skills. Did you speak Spanish in the home? Clark: Of course. And I never forgot Spanish because I'm a reader, and I just always wanted to keep reading. We--my mother and I went to the library at Michigan State, and we checked out, you know, they had a big collection in Spanish of course. And so I checked out these Argentinian novels, and Colombian novels and everything. So I was always reading something that kept my skills up. I didn't do it on purpose, but I really wanted to stay, keep my Spanish so that when I went back to Mexico, people wouldn't make fun of me. Because they, you know, they said your English, your Spanish starts to get very what they call pocho. Which is, it has a lot of English influence. And I didn't wanna be called pocha. So I kept my Spanish skills as long as I could. And then I majored in French at Ole Miss. I was gonna major in math, but a woman professor who taught third semester calculus said to me, “I know why you're here. You're just looking for a husband.” And she just persecuted me in the class. So I said, “No, who needs this? I don't wanna be in this world.” So I switched to French, and I majored in French. And, and then that's another story, because when I went to--when I applied at KU for graduate school, I was supposed to go in the French department to get my PhD in French. But the department had split that year. It was a romance language department, and it split from Spanish and Portuguese into Spanish and Portuguese and French and Italian. So, they said, “Okay, you go here.” And all of a sudden you had to take all these Spanish classes. And I thought, well, I wonder why, but I'll, I'll take them. And I had taken more classes. They, I got a letter that says, you have to take more Spanish classes. And when I, when I was at Ole Miss, so I took more Spanish classes and I kept taking Spanish lit of different fields. And when I got there and I went to the advisor, he was the chair of the Spanish and Portuguese department, and he said, “You're gonna be teaching Spanish I as a TA (teacher’s assistant), and then you're gonna take these three Spanish classes.” (laughs) So I said, “Well, okay.” (laughter) I didn't, I was twenty you know, what did I know? So, I started taking Spanish classes. And it's a good thing because at the time, French was beginning to decline in demand, and I could never get used to speaking French either. I didn't like to, to say, oh. (laughs) I couldn't, you know, I just couldn't get used to the, the accent. So, I just stayed in Spanish. And that's what since you ask about my skills, they came in handy because I had read a lot of the works already as a kid, and I liked the people in the Spanish department. And that's where I stayed. Visintainer: Yeah, thank you. And I was, I was curious as to, because you went, you ended up, you know, getting your PhD in Spanish, how you kept those skills up being in an environment where outside of your home you didn't necessarily have the opportunity (Visintainer and Clark speaking over each other). Yes. Clark: I met the Cuban when I was my third year of graduate school. And he was in high school. So, his parents were my classmates. And so he was, you know my parents had a fit because he was nineteen. And when we got married, he turned twenty the next day. (laughs) And my parents thought he was gonna, he was too young. He was gonna, you know, leave me after a while. And I, but I thought, “Well, who cares? I'm gonna go for it.” And so, we spoke Spanish at home, and his parents spoke Spanish at, at home. So it was, I got into that other culture. And in fact, I got, I didn't have a Spanish accent when I was in college or with--when I was in high school. But I got, got the Spanish accent after living with Jose for all those years. Because we--and he doesn't have any accent. But anyway, so he came when he was fourteen, and so he had been in the US for five years. So anyway, that's how I ended up staying in the Spanish field. And kind of rediscovering my country through the academic degree. Because I specialize in Mexican literature. I met all these Mexican scholars. And I was in a totally different environment when I got back than I was when I left. I didn't, I only had one aunt who was kind of an academic, but everybody else, you know, they were home. They stayed at home and they didn't, typical Mexican wife role. But I did have an aunt, who had the best collection of Mexican literature that I've ever seen anywhere. And I was trying to get her to leave it to me, but it didn't work out. So. Anyway anything about graduate school, or? Visintainer: Yeah I was, well I was curious when you moved, just to circle back a little bit, when you moved to Lansing. And you moved there, and then you went down south to Mississippi, and you talked about the culture shock. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about the culture shock. What you found as you were just starting to adjust to the Midwest. And then you moved to the South, what you found was shocking and the differences in those places. Clark: Well, the school, first of all, most of the schools I went to had all girls. And of course, the school in Michigan was a mixed, you know, boys and girls. And there were things happening. This is the time in the fifties that when education in the US totally did a change, a pivot, you know. Because I read a book called The Lonely Crowd. And it explains what happened in the US in the fifties, that the school systems started to do things very differently than before. For example, instead of having a desk that flipped--that had a lid, so you could keep all your stuff hidden, and private. It started to have these chairs with a, just a paddle where you could write on, and all your stuff was in view for the rest of the world. And they started to put your stuff on the bulletin board, your work on the bulletin board. And that was very alien to me. I had gone to these schools where everything was very regimented, the nuns and the--even I went to a school that was not Catholic. And it did have boys and girls, but it was very regimented. And you had to obey the teacher. You had to, when the teacher came in the room, you stood up. And when you went--were gonna go out, you had to get in single file. And everything was very regimented. And we wore uniforms. Whereas here in the school in Michigan, no uniforms. The classrooms were all like people sitting around tables. What was that? (laughs) Like the Socratic method, all of a sudden. (laughs) And people sitting around these open tables. And so the kid--the boys would put their feet up on the table, and the teacher didn't say anything. We had a science teacher who brought apples to the class. You know, eating in class? Wow. So things like that. And then just kind of a lack of structure at the time in the, in the school when I was used to all that. But at the same time, this kind of a Nazi-- no, I take that back. The gym teacher who says, “No, you will not, you will take a shower.” She wouldn't even let me like, go early and take a quick shower by myself. You know, she didn't wanna make any accommodations. So, I couldn't understand that. I understood authority cause of the nuns, but I don't know. I just--my mom never really followed the conventions. She was always a free spirit. So, in that way, we never had all the regimented things that you find in Mexico. Like my aunt died. Her sister died very young, and she would refuse to wear black. So, all her relatives criticized her. And then all my cousins were saying, “How come you're not wearing black?” So that was something that, you know, I was used to. But in the US there were some other things that some rigidity that I couldn't understand. Anyway, I was thirteen, you know, so that's not a good age to change cultures. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I was kind of, I was a kind of, well-developed thirteen, so the boys were starting to pay attention. But the boys in Mexico were eighteen, for example. You know, people are used to difference in age. And the boys in Michigan were thirteen and they were shorter than I was. And just little boys. So that was also kind of sad because I was beginning to develop, you know, interest in the opposite sex. Plus the schools, you know, they were clannish. So of course, I was not a popular person because I didn't, I didn't speak the language. And I don't, I'm not talking about English, I'm talking about the teenage language, you know. I didn't have a group that I could hang out with. So I was kind of a nerd because I liked math. Then people didn't know where to put me cause I was too nerdish. And then at the same time, I was kind of sophisticated. I was more adult than they were. So it was a difficult time, to find a place there. Visintainer: When do you feel you found your place? Clark: Where? Visintainer: Where, yeah. Where? When? Clark: Kind of in Oxford. Because the girls were really friendly to me. Even the popular girls liked me. And they did the did the best they could to include me in all their activities and all the things that they were doing. And I found a friend there. We're still friends. We still write each other. We used to visit each other, but she was, she was a professor at USC (University of Southern California) and then she moved. She was--her father was a professor also. And this girl was, you know, she was kind of my intellectual equal in a way. She read a lot. She introduced me to a lot of English writers, cause her father was an English professor. And we used to kind of joke, with kind of sophisticated weight. I was--I really thought it was funny that I wish I had some stuff that I wrote when I was that age, because I think we were pretty witty at the time. And so that made me feel good. And she used to buy all these novels at the drugstore, and she would take off the front covers so her mother wouldn't know that they were X-rated (laughs). So, you know, I mean it was a fun time to be with somebody who was my age and was really into that stuff. And so she moved to Massachusetts, unfortunately. So that hit me in the head, because I don't fly anymore. And I don't think she's flying very much either. We're both--I'm gonna be eighty next month, and she's gonna be eighty in December, so we're getting there. So— Visintainer: But you've kept in touch. Clark: Yeah. Yeah. And that was great because she ended up at USC. She started out in Illinois, and then went to Texas, and she ended up at USC. So when she--her husband was at San Diego State, so she was living in La Jolla for a while. And we had to see each other a lot. So we still do a Zoom conversation once in a while. So that was, she contributed a lot to that. And then I have another friend that I stay in touch with who lives in Alabama. But we still stay in touch and they're Democrats (laughs). And then I had another friend who passed away two years ago. So, those three friends were great, and we were close. And so I didn't feel lonely anymore. I didn't date anybody until I was almost a freshman in college. I just wasn't attractive to guys, to the--I wasn't a southern bell. So I wasn't appealing to guys because I didn't just go and bat my eyelashes at anybody. I didn't know how to flirt at the time. Visintainer: Well and you needed you needed to find your group. Clark: Right. Visintainer: Yeah. So then you, you go to Lawrence (Kansas) after you graduated? Clark: Yes. Just, you know, my dad told me--asked me when I was a senior in high school, “Where is it that you wanna get your PhD?” (Laughs) He didn't even ask me, “Are you gonna get a PhD?” No. He says, “Where is it that you're going for your PhD?” So I, I'm one of those people who takes the first offer I get. I didn't take the first offer for marriage that I got, but I did take the first offer for graduate school. I took the first offer for the first job, for my first job. And then, the Cal State San Marcos job was kind of a first offer in the sense that it was new place. So anyway, I just I applied to places and I liked the--as I said, I was in French, so I applied at the University of Kansas because they had a good French department. So I got, it really appealed to me that, to study French at KU. And then I ended up studying Spanish. So. Visintainer: And so you came to KU and then you met Jose. And, so how did you meet Jose? Clark: Well, his parents were my classmates. Visintainer: That's right. Clark: And there was a party--this is a weird story too. There was a party, some Venezuelans, they--KU has an amazing number of programs with Latin America. I mean, just, you wouldn't believe it. And they had a program, with a Ford Foundation program to bring Venezuelan engineers to Kansas. So, my mother-in-law was the secretary to this project. And they invited her to a big party. And so her husband, who was also my classmate, and he was kind of a, had a roving eye. He had a crush on my roommate. So, he invited both of us so he could get to dance with my roommate. And then he went to Jose and said, “Hey, you know, I'm really interested in this girl. Would you mind dancing with the roommate?” (laughs) Who was me, “So that I can dance with Judy.” And so, he came and asked me to dance. And so, I thought, “Oh, how great.” Cause he was very good looking. And we just hit it off and we danced all night at that party. And at five in the morning his parents invited me to go have cognac in their--at their apartment. So, you know, we just started to see each other. But he was nineteen, and he looked like he was younger. So I thought, I'm really robbing the cradle big time, so I better stop this. So, I asked him point blank, how old are you? Because by this time, we had seen each other a couple of times, and he said, nineteen. And I thought, whew, you know, he's not underage (laughs). And also, you know, this is okay, we're having fun. No big deal. But we realized, you know, it was a lot more serious than we thought. So, we met--that was the Thanksgiving weekend of 1966. And we got married in (19)67 in August the next year. So, we didn't have a very long courtship. And what really speared that forward was that he was living with his parents in this duplex. And his grandmother was getting out of Cuba. You know, they were, they were Cuban refugees from the Castro regime. So, grandma was getting out and she had to share his bedroom, Jose's bedroom. So, I said, well, we couldn't live together. The department was very conservative, and I would've lost my assistantship if we had moved in together. It sounds hard to believe that people think in those terms now, but they were very, very conservative. So, I thought I didn't wanna jeopardize my studies. And so, we said, “Well, what do we do? We break up or we get married, you know, either one.” And so, he was just starting his freshman year anyway, so I said, “Well, I think we ought to break up because this is not--it's not viable.” I was living in this little apartment and, anyway I was making $240 a month, and I wasn't gonna marry somebody who didn't have any income. And his parents were students also. Cause when you got out of Cuba, no matter how much money you have, you have to get out with the clothes on your back. And his mother was a journalist, but she had, who came from a wealthy family, but she had to go work in a donut shop in Miami when they first came, got out of Cuba. So we didn't have any money, none of us. So I said, “Well, you know I don't know if we should get married. This is too serious. It's too soon.” And then, so then he gives me his grandmother's wedding band, and he says, “I'm serious. I really wanna marry you.” So we decided, okay, let's go ahead. And we got married and he got a job working in the language lab. And in the--at the library. (laughs) So we were living on like, with $350 a month. But we were living okay, you know? We discovered, yeah, we can make it go. And my parents came around and they really liked him, and they ended up just loving him to death, you know? So that was, that was a good thing. Even though a lot of people talked to us and said, “Don't do it. It's too soon.” Including the guy who married us was his speech professor. And he said, “Well, I'm not gonna marry you guys until I talk to you quite a bit.” So we had to go to his house many times. So he would give us--he was a Methodist minister, as well as being a professor on campus. And he talked to us a lot. And finally he says, “Yeah, I think you're gonna do okay.” And so, he married us. We had a very plain, very simple wedding in his parents' duplex. We invited friends who were also graduate students. They brought food. It was kind of a potluck. And here we are, fifty-six years later. Visintainer: It was a good start then. Clark: Yeah. That's been, to me, that's been the best part of my life is, you know, having Jose next to me for fifty-six years. Most of our lives. Anyway, so that was KU. I got my PhD in Spanish in ‘71. Like everybody else, I had to apply to a million places for a job. And I had, San Bernardino sounded really good to me because it was in California. I had my best friend, my best friend at KU was teaching there already. She had gotten her PhD at Ohio State, and she'd gotten hired at San Bernardino. We could have been done the same time, but I just, I wasn't in any hurry because Jose was not, wasn't graduating until ‘71. Oh, sorry. (laughs) Visintainer: No, you're fine. Clark: Tell me if I'm giving you too much information. Visintainer: No, no, no. It's really interesting. I'm happy you're sharing and thank you for sharing. So, Jose was graduating in 1971, so you had some time to kind of figure out your next steps. Clark: Yes. We didn't know what he was gonna do. So, he applied to graduate schools and he got accepted at UC Irvine. So we were happily planning for that. at And of course, I had to stay in San Bernardino cause I've never been a good driver. So, he was gonna drive to Irvine to go to graduate school there. But he thought the drive was a little bit too long. And we weren't used to commuting and all that California life. So he applied at the library at Cal State San Bernardino. They had a temporary job, and it was perfect. He just loved it. So, he started working there. And that was ironic because there were a lot of jobs that I didn't take because--that I didn't pursue, because they were always asking me, “What's your husband gonna do? What's he gonna work at?” And so they would turn off because he didn't, he was--didn't have a job yet. And I was also childbearing age, and a lot of people didn't wanna hire you. I won't mention a couple of universities that I got approached by. And according to my professors, I had a really good chance to get--go there. But they were worried about Jose. So ironically, he started working where I worked. And then he got another job since that was only, that was temporary. The funds for that dried up. And so, the University of Redlands hired him. The library there. And he loved it. But I said, “No, you better get your degree because you can't be, just be a clerk all the time.” So he started going to USC and very slowly, and finally I said, “No, you just quit whatever you're doing and finish your degree, because that's the only way you're gonna have a career out of being a librarian.” And at sure enough, it worked out so well because he's loved that career. And it's kept us on an even keel, always. Because my career sometimes was high pressure ‘cause I did some administrative work along the way. And so he, it was always good to have him in this job that he loved. And that wasn't super high pressure until he got in the county. And then that turned out to be very high pressure because he was--he became a supervisor. And that's, you know, anytime you go into administration, that's it for you because you start leaving the job that you love and doing a job that pays better, but gives you a little more prestige. But-- (laughs). Visintainer: Yep. It's very true. Well, as at a librarian, I'm very happy that Jose was able to find his avocation in our vocation. Clark: I know. And it's, you know, librarian is such an interesting, has such an interesting opportunity to do all kinds of different things. So that he's found that, and he's always worked with women really well, you know, because so many women are in the library. And I work with men really well. So, we compliment each other because we're not jealous people who think, “Oh, you're gonna be with this person.” You know, I just always hung out with guys in my profession. And he's always gotten along with women and met--made really good friends in both areas. Visintainer: Yeah. And to circle back a little bit to coming to CSU San Bernardino, you mentioned at that you had wanted to go to California, and I was curious as to what was the draw for California as opposed to other parts of the United States? Clark: Well, California has always had really good press, maybe until now that the states are so divided. But it always, it was always like paradise, if you wanna go to paradise in the US, go to California. And they show you all these orange groves and this beautiful weather and the ocean. And it was just, it just has a good ethos, you know? So I always really wanted to go to California. My parents ended up in Florida. I never had any desire to go to Florida, and for any, every reason in the world. But somehow California just seemed like this paradise. And also, you know, LA. Wow. San Francisco. (laughs) My dad lived in San Francisco many years, and he was always talking about San at Francisco being such a great place. And then LA with Hollywood and, you know, just sounded like--plus the proximity to Mexico. You know, I always kept thinking, “Well, if I'm in California, I can always cross the border.” You know, I always felt kind of uneasy when I felt--when I lived really far from the border. Which is ironic because now I never get down there (laughs) you know, just. But I did find some relatives who live in Tijuana, so that's been great. You know, they come to visit. And, it's really good to keep track of my family that way. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: I found them on Facebook of all places (laughs). Visintainer: So Facebook has some, has some good things about it. Clark: Yeah. (laughs) Visintainer: You can connect people. So you came to, so what was the decision to leave CSU San Bernardino at and come to San Marcos? Clark: Well, when I was about three or four years before I left there, I discovered that I'd like to be an administrator. Because the Dean of Humanities left, and he asked me if I would be his replacement. So even though it was a really hard job, because he didn't look after any budgets. I mean, he was just so, he was a wild, loose, kind of a loose cannon. And I had to go, and as one colleague told me, I had to go shovel a lot of cages at the zoo when I took over that job. But I loved that job. So, it was an interim job. I had it for two years, and then I, when I applied for the permanent job, I didn't get it. at So, I thought, “Well I, but I wanna do this.” So I started applying different places for dean's jobs. And I got, I did pretty well in the market, but it just wasn't appealing to me to go for several reasons. I had been in San Bernardino for nineteen years. I was used to the good weather. And so this, the Cal State San Marcos thing came up and he said, “You know, you start the, a program from scratch. Start the department from scratch.” And so I talked to people about it, and they, I said, “What do you do?” And says, “Oh, you can hire the kind of people that you want. You can go after the kind of faculty that you want. You can create the kind of curriculum that you want that you find is good. You can do a lot of stuff. It's, it's a huge opportunity.” So, I applied at for it, and sure enough, I got the job. So it was--I moved kind of laterally because I had tenure there. I was a full professor. But I had no idea of all the horrendous amount of work that you have to do when you start a program. And, I probably wouldn't do it again. And my dad had done that in Florida, and he said, “Oh, be careful, because it's so much work.” And I just, you know, I just went in there thinking, “Well, how bad can it be?” And it was pretty bad (laughs) because I had to work year-round. And it was one thing after the other. I'll give you an example. Marion Ried (Dean of the University Library) came up to at me and she was in charge of some funds that were assigned to the university. I don't know why they put her in charge of that. But anyway, she says, “You know, there's $150,000 earmarked for a language lab, and if you don't spend it,” this is in April when she talked to me, “If you don't spend it by the end of June, Bill Stacy's gonna take it.” He was the (university) president. “He's gonna just take it and spend it on something else because it’s gonna become available to the whole campus.” And I said, “We can't have a language department without a language lab. No way.” So, I had to go buy a language lab, and I had from April to end of June to do that. Well, how do you do that? Visintainer: Yeah, where did you begin? Clark: Yeah. I was lucky enough that the San Bernardino campus had redone its language lab, and they had formed a committee and they had, you know, interviewed different lab companies. And they had decided what kind of lab they wanted. And they already had the infrastructure though. And I had to start from zero. So I went to talk to the guy who ran that lab. Fortunately, he was somebody that I had supervised, and he just loved me. So he gave me all kinds of information and all kinds of help about what some of the pitfalls would be. And I picked that lab that, it was a Norwegian company, something like that. Norwegian, I think Norwegian. And I had to come up with a sole-source justification in just a little bit of time, because there was another company that was saying, “Why didn't you pick us? Why didn't you buy our lab?” And then I was lucky because I got two faculty who came, and they were very versed on the--they came from UC Irvine, and they had learned how the lab can be used as a teaching tool. And it was, you know, they had done workshops and they had done all kinds of stuff. And that's one of the reasons that I picked them to come be our next faculty. Because they had learned so much about what a language lab does other than just be an aide. Electronic aid, you know, technology aid. And it was a married couple. They both came together. And so she was the, she was doing all the all the software kind of stuff, and he was doing all the hardware kind of stuff. So, I was lucky that way that I--but I also see that as part of a, you know, being hired with experience. Because if I had been hired out of graduate school, I wouldn't have been able to do anything like that. And so, because I came with having chaired the department, having been a dean, and when you're Dean of Humanities, you deal with a lot of equipment. Because I had the arts under my supervision. And I had to deal with lots of interesting types of equipment. So it worked out. But it was a very tough two years. I was in, at one point, I was in like thirty-five hiring committees. Visintainer: Wow! Clark: And one of those committees was for literature, the literature department, which was called English at the time. We had eight hundred applicants for one position. Visintainer: Wow. Clark: So, you had to learn how to, you know, how to process stuff very quickly. And so, and also I had learned how to deal with administrators, higher administrators, to negotiate for things. So I was a little bit more informed as to how to deal with things. Because a lot of the faculty don't, they don't deal with anybody. They just go on, they do their great teaching and they do their research, but they don't they're not used to wheeling and dealing, for example. And so I learned very quickly that the first best, the people who got the best things, were wheelers and dealers in the faculty. I learned from some of my colleagues very well because you don't just get things by saying, “Yes, I accept the job. I'll be there this day. When do I start working?” You have to say, you know, “What, how much office space am I gonna get (laughs)? How much--what is gonna be my budget for traveling and for hiring? And how many faculty am I gonna have in five years? When you had to start that kind of thing. And in a way, I was not that good when I first came, but I learned very quickly. Very, very quickly you learned that. So that's what brought me to San Marcos wasn't the weather like a lot of people (laughs). It was the opportunity of starting a new department. And that was really interesting. But ironically, my ideal colleague--I was able to hire this guy. He was just wonderful. But he hated California. He couldn't, he couldn't live away from his mom. And so he left after two years. But I did get some of the other faculty that I think are ideal and wonderful. They're still here. Visintainer: That's good. So what was your vision when you started the department? Clark: Well, I wanted to, I wanted to have a major that would give the students the opportunity to go in different directions and to get lots of skills without having to, you know, because a lot of the majors are very academic. And I love the--I love that, but it doesn't give them many tools like to be teachers or to be like, go to work in business. And so I wanted to major that would be, that would help students be very versatile. And they could go in lots of different fields. And I think I accomplished that. Our major was, there were only two of us working on the major at the beginning, and it got accepted by the chancellor's office on the first meeting, you know. Because we came up with this modular plan, and also just wanted to hire a lot of faculty that I would love to work with. That was my vision as the harmonious department, because if people don't get along--and I came from a lot of programs where people didn't get along at all. Visintainer: That's really interesting. Cause yeah., cause there's a lot of at times disharmony in academia. Clark: Oh yeah! Visintainer: And in some ways, you know, for a good reason because there's a lot of debate and thought that has to go into things. But— Clark: I mean, a department is made up of a whole bunch of prima donnas. Visintainer: Yeah. (laughs) So how did you go about building harmony in a department, in your department? Clark: I don't know. I can't tell you exactly. You just have a feel for people. And I was, I just use my instincts a lot. And so I try to get people to apply that I knew were very easy to work with, that love to work with you, that no matter what you ask of them, they would do it. But the guy who came with me, the first guy, we went too far because he never said no to anybody. And at some point he burned out. But he was good to work with. I mean, he was good to be here the first two years. Unfortunately, he passed away not too long ago. But, anyway he--so I just, I just had a feeling that people who were my friends, besides being my colleagues. And I knew a lot of people, you know. I had--they applied a lot of people from different areas applied here because I went, I worked a long time for grading the Advanced Placement (AP) exam. So, I had a huge network because those, you meet people every year, and you get to know each other. And so that's what it was, just, you know--and then what my big goal was always to help people thrive. And not put any obstacles in their development. And one of my professors at KU said, because I, my dissertation was kind of weird. And then I said, “You know, I'm surprised that, that you approved it, because I know that it is very unconventional approach to literature.” And he said, “Look, to me, your dissertation is your beginning work. If I'm gonna consider that your master work, then you're in trouble. Because this is what's gonna kick you into the field and into the academic world.” And I did have a professor who didn't wanna approve it, and these guys kind of rallied. And they said, “We couldn't, you couldn't take it out of the building to read it.” And so, he refused to go to read it in the building. Visintainer: What, so what--what was weird about your dissertation? Clark: Well, it was a very like a very close reading of some works. Very, very close. I was using a method that was kind of controversial at the time. It was called the--what is it called? My head is not working anymore. But anyway, you, if you read a work very closely, you analyze, you know like even stylistic patterns in something. You can kind of make conclusions that are much broader about the work then you can if you approach it from the outside and just look at the--look at it from a bird's eye view. Like if you read something and you say, the plot is this and the blah, blah, blah. But if you’re really close, read closely and about all the language used in it and everything. And some people at the time didn't like that method. It was an, it was a method followed by some English writers, American writers. It was an American thing. But I applied it to Mexican literature. So, a lot of people thought that was, it was stupid that it didn't lead you anywhere. And this writer that I went--that I wrote on, had been written on by a lot of people. And so this guy who didn't wanna pass me said, “Where's the, where's the biography of this writer? Where's the list of the his works? You don't learn anything about the guy.” I said, “No, no, no. I don't wanna learn about the guy. I wanna learn about the worlds he's creating in his works. You know, what kind of world is he creating with the use of this language?” And so it was--you know, some people thought it was too weird or maybe it didn't go far enough out. You know, it was not a universal thing. But it was, I was kind of following a method by an anthropologist (Claude) Lévi-Strauss, you know. Have you heard of Lévi-Strauss? Visintainer: I have not. Clark: Anyway, he studied people by patterns of--I'm losing my train of thought here. He studied people by the patterns in their culture, not coming from you know, the outside and saying, “Oh, they do this, they eat at this time.” But it's following very, very specific things that they did. Anyway. So it worked for me and, and I learned a lot about analyzing literature. And so that helped me in my teaching. So, whereas this guy, the professor who didn't wanna pass me, pass my dissertation. Well he--I had a course from him and he ordered ten books. It was gonna, it was Romanticism in Spain, okay. Romanticism in literature in Spain. And he started with the eighteenth century before Romanticism. And he gave us so much stuff about the eighteenth century, he never got to Romanticism. So I returned all the books without reading them because he never got to the subject. And so that's, I wanted to avoid that at all costs. I said, “I wanna read the works, I wanna see what the work is itself, and I don't care if the author was, you know, if he was gay, if he was an idiot, I don't care. I wanna see what he left behind.” So it was very close text reading, textual reading. And some people didn't appreciate that. So. But it served me well. Lemme tell you, I use that method throughout my career and it really helped. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I'm still reading like that. I don't read as much anymore, but I'm still kind of, “Oh look, this word he uses here.” Anyway, any more questions? Visintainer: Yeah. Could we circle back to the kind of the founding of the department? Clark: Yes. Visintainer: And I was just curious, what do you think was your, like your biggest challenge in those early years in founding the department, and coming on board at CSUSM? Clark: Oh, I don't wanna say. Visintainer: (Laughs) Well, you don't have, you don't have to answer if you don't want to. Clark: No, no. Because, because this campus developed very--I came from a very organized campus. And most people didn’t wanna realize that this was a CSU campus. They thought they were gonna create something from scratch that was brand new. And there are all these people who came from these different backgrounds, like faculty who came from liberal stu--liberal arts colleges, from big research universities. And I said, “This is a Cal State, people. We, that doesn't mean we have to look down on anybody, but it's, we have to be real about who the students are gonna be, and then what they need to learn.” So, ‘cause I've always been kind of an elitist in my, in my own mind, but not when it comes to educating students. I think, you know, you really need to consider the fact that people come from backgrounds that maybe aren't, they're not up to here academically, but they're very bright people. So just look at them, look at their interests, look at their--what they wanna learn. And I always love the Cal States because people pay for their own education. People pay for their, you know, they’re often the first person in their family to go to college. They work forty hours a week to go to college. They have children, they have other interests. They have jobs, they have parents. If you come from a Latino family, you know, you have to take care of your parents. They have husbands who don't want them to study. There's machismo there. You know, a big, big obstacle for Latina women. Anyway, just look at the students that we get, and don't look down on them. Look at what the possibilities are with these people because they're, they wanna learn. They're here because they want to be, not because, you know like when my last class at KU was on Friday, it would meet Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays at four o'clock in the afternoon. And sometimes on a Friday, I wouldn't have anybody showing up. Even though they knew that it counted, that I took off for absences. They just didn't care, you know, because they were gonna go into daddy's business, or they were gonna go into their uncle’s (business), you know, these people who they just weren't interested. And so, I said, that's what I love about the Cal State, is it has such a mission of, like now it's right in line with us because of the upward mobility. Because I was lucky that I didn't have to think about that, ‘cause I had parents who were educated. I always had books in my house. I always had. But these people who are, they've never seen a book in their house. They don't even get a magazine. And all of a sudden they have to, they have all these things thrown at them, but they wanna learn. So, I always had a lot of respect for the Cal State system for that reason. And a lot of my colleagues just, it makes me sad that they think the students are not up to par, blah, blah, blah. But it's, I've always loved the state universities because they want to educate the masses. And I love, I love for the masses to learn! And I like to be in the trenches. So that was why I didn't wanna leave the system. At the same time, you know, I yearned for these people who, like my friend, the USC friend, she’s taught--she's had years when she taught five or six student graduate students. And that's her whole teaching load. Where my advisor who had a chair at KU and he could just go. He went through South America traveling one year and left us in his house, to house sit for them. And, just visiting different universities and different libraries and doing research all over the place for his book. And he didn't have to teach a single class in two years. So I yearn for that, but at the same time, I like the idea of seeing people. And I still have people who, you know, look me up. Visintainer: That's impact. Clark: My students have retired already. Some of my students, my first students from San Bernardino. Yeah this one woman, she tracked me down here, and every year she and her husband come to visit us for when they come on vacation. And she's a retired teacher already. So it's, you know, it's very sad how some people don't care. Once the students leave, that's it. Visintainer: Yeah. I think there's definitely an ethos that comes from--that comes from being at a teaching university and embracing it and— Clark: Right. Visintainer: Great things that it can do for social mobility and upward mobility. And I appreciated you mentioning and talking about our students. And that kind of had me spur a question that I wanted to ask you. And was, what do you think was the big takeaway that you've learned from our students over the years? Clark: That they want, they want to learn and that they want to prosper. And very often their circumstances do not allow them to prosper, and do not allow them to learn. Many, many people I had to--I had a husband one time coming from a student who was in a couple of my classes, and he said, “I wanna come and sit in your classes cause I wanna watch my wife and make sure she doesn't talk to any guys.” I said, “No, you're not welcome there, because you're not a student and you're there for the wrong reasons.” So, I was worried that she was gonna get the brunt of that, but she eventually left that guy. But he would sabotage her learning. And I think, you know, and she kept going. She kept going. And I had another one here on this campus who, she was regularly beaten by her husband because she wasn't--she didn't have the food cooked when she, you know, she was in class and she didn't have the meal prepared. And so she's--but she went ahead and got her master's degree somehow. And I think the students are very resilient and they work very hard to make it. They don't, of course there are a lot of deadbeats too, but that doesn't--they're everywhere. But the majority of the students, I mean, I ask in class, I never had to work as a waitress or anything like that, you know. And I asked in my class one time, “What, how many of you're working?” And I would say, I would calculate like eighty percent raised their hands. And I said, “How many of you work more than twenty hours a week?” And most of them raise their hands again. Whereas, you know, I got to work in the language lab, I got--but that was for my extras. You know, my dad said, “If you want this and that, if you wanna buy records or if you wanna buy this.” But we didn't have to go to work. And we had a home that supported doing homework. And my mom wasn't around completely. But anyway. It was good. I had a good upbringing in that sense, and I wanted the students to get help that way. So I did a few things that weren't, didn't mean very much but for example, when I went to Mexico City you can buy books. Like you can buy literature in the newsstands for like fifty cents a book or something. So, I would buy if I knew I was gonna use the book in my class, if you order it from, well now Amazon, but if you order it from a bookstore, they'd have to pay like ten dollars for that book. And I would buy all these books for fifty cents and then bring them back and say, “If you can't afford the books, come and see me.” So, they would come, sometimes very ashamed. But I said, “Don't be, don't be embarrassed. Just, you know, just come and see me.” And I’d say, “Okay, you can use this book. Use it in the class. If you really like it and you wanna keep it for your library, you can keep it. If you don't wanna keep it, just give it back to me.” And they would always keep it, because they were building a library. That was so cool. And then all my books, when my mother died, all her books came to me. And there were duplicates of a lot of stuff I had. So I took them to the office and I said to the graduate students, “Take anything you want.” And now we're, fortunately we get to leave things to the campus. We're fortunate that we're--we decided to leave our estate to the campus. Because we want to, we want students to prosper in any way they can. And sometimes it's just a question of a thousand dollars that's gonna put them over the edge. I wish we had millions, but we don't. So. Visintainer: Well that's, that's wonderful to be able to leave something to foster student success in the future. Clark: Yeah. Because I have a family, but they can look after themselves, they've had good opportunities. And, we don't have kids. So we're not responsible for anybody in particular. So, I don't wanna make, I don't wanna tire you because I've been talking so much about myself (laughs). Visintainer: No, no, you're fine. Well, we can, we can certainly look towards wrapping things up. I've enjoyed talking with you. I did wanna--I did want to ask you kind of a wrap up question. Is that, is there anything that you wish I would've asked you that I didn't? Clark: Not really. I think, I can just go ahead and talk forever about all this. It's an eighty-year-old life, so eighty years of being on this earth, that's a long time. And so there’s things that I don't remember at all. And the things that I remember so vividly, and when I went to see Roma (2018 film), I just cried throughout the whole movie. Bought it on Netflix, but I just--I cried and cried, and cried the whole movie. Because he captures that neighborhood so well. And he, there's a documentary that where he explains how he captured that neighborhood. And he was really meticulous about every single thing, like those little soldiers at parade every morning. I mean, there were details like that, that I've never seen in a movie before. And also because Mexico City always looks like a, this gray place with dirt, dirt streets and everything. And here's this guy who is just--captures the neighborhood that I grew up in. I mean, what are the chances? Because most people show you the tourist view of Mexico City. And so that's what, that's what I miss. It's like the daily noises, and the daily routines, and the kind of house that it is and the maid. Very sad because we did have a couple of maids, like the--like this girl, they would come and knock on your door and say they were there from Oaxaca and did you have any, did you have any work for them? And my mother took, did take a couple of people like that. We didn't have any money at the time, but anyway, she did take a couple of these girls. And they didn't even speak Spanish, these poor girls. So that just--that really got me, that movie. And so I always tell people, if you wanna get to know me, watch that movie. But I don't, I'm not the maid. I'm the, I'm the person from the señora, you know? Because the grandma didn't even know her name. And then I kept thinking, I didn't know any of these girl's names. I didn't know where they came from. And when she has a baby, and they take her to the hospital, says, “What's her name?” And she doesn't even know her name. Because there's, it's another world that I never got to know. And I used to think, “Oh, Oaxaca, that has to be the scum of the earth.” And, and I fell in love with Oaxaca the first time I went there. It kind of shows you that you don't, you never appreciate your own world until you're out of it. Visintainer: Yeah I, you know, as somebody who did not grow up in Roma but I saw the movie, I thought it was an amazing, just an amazing creation of space. And I didn't know if it was you know, how particularly accurate it was or not. So, it's nice to hear that it really spoke to you on an emotional and memory level. Clark: Yeah. There, this little scene, there's a scene when the guy leaves her (Cleodegaria "Cleo" Gutiérrez, main character of Roma), she says she's pregnant and the guy leaves her, and she's sitting on the steps of this movie theater. And there are all these noises because people go outside of the movie theater, they're selling a lot of stuff. Little toys and everything. And she's just surrounded by all these noises and she's just sitting there in her loneliness, you know? And here's the interesting cultural thing is that nobody goes to the movies on Sundays, except the maids and their boyfriends and, you know, the domestic help. That's when they go to the movies, and they go see Mexican movies. The middle class goes to see the American movies first run, you know. And they go during the week or on the week--on Saturday, but not on Sunday afternoon, belongs to the servants. So it's an upstairs/downstairs world that most people don't realize. And, so it's kind of hard to also to explain that to people that, you may not have anything in common who is from Mexico. There are people from Mexico that I have absolutely nothing in common with. Cause they were brought up--we had a cleaning lady, and she would not, she invited us to her house on her birthday. She would not sit down with us to eat, even though it was her birthday. And I knew. I understood it. And I, we didn't insist on anything, because she would not sit down with us to eat. So that's--it's a different world that is very hard to explain to people. And, so that's another challenge for me that I live in two worlds in my head. I've got one foot here and one foot there and they never come together. Visintainer: And I think that that's probably an experience for folks that move from country to country or even within countries. Clark: Exiles. Yeah. People who have grown up somewhere else. And, who was I talking to about that the other day? It was very interesting because we were saying because I--oh, I have a lot of, most of my friends are really from someplace else (laughs). Even though, not on purpose, they're faculty on campus. But, I was looking at my, one of my Zumba classes. There was nobody born in the US in that Zumba class. I don't know. I kept seeing, maybe there was one person. But there was a woman from Colombia, there was a woman from Japan, another one from Puerto Rico. Well, Puerto Rico's US, but they have another culture. And so it was just so strange that we're exiles and we do have a common denominator, but that never reaches you the most in the deepest way. You always have, you always have this farness. Visintainer: And I, yes. I wanted to share that I lived in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas- Clark: Oh, you did? Visintainer: And, yeah. And when I was there, you know, I had somebody tell me what they thought of the Valley, and I thought it was really interesting in that that he said, “It's a liminal place. It's a place that's not quite Texas, it's not quite Mexico.” It exists in its own way and with its own rules and its own identity. And that causes, in some ways, for folks that live in the Rio Grande Valley, that sense of displacement when they’re in other places because they don't feel quite--and I'm speaking in generalities but, you know, there's a feeling of not quite being Texas, not quite being the US, not quite being Mexico all wrapped into its own place and culture. That was really interesting. And, and I really— Clark: Yeah, I really wanna visit with you sometime and hear more about you, so. Visintainer: Yeah. Well, we can get together and chat, but this is not about me, and I just went on a tangent. I apologize. (laughs) Clark: I know, I know. No. No, but it's good. It's good. So well, thank you for the interview and I hope I didn't leave anything major out. But if I did, give me a call or send me an email because, you know how I'm always willing to talk about myself. (laughs) Visintainer: Sure, sure. Well I really appreciate you chatting with me today, Stella. And I'm gonna pause recording and then, and then we can wrap up with anything else. Clark: Okay. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with CSUSM. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ClarkStella_VisintainerSean_2023-08-09.xml ClarkStella_VisintainerSean_2023-08-09.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clark, Stella. Interview August 9, 2023. Description An account of the resource Dr. Stella Clark grew up in Colonia Roma, Mexico City, and moved to the U.S. in her early childhood. She grew up in a family who valued education; both her parents received a PhD and she was expected to get one as well. Clark received her bachelor's degree in French and her master's and PhD degrees in Spanish. She began her professional career at California State University, San Bernardino and eventually applied to California State University San Marcos, where she founded the Modern Languages Department and created the university's language lab. In her interview, Clark discusses how she made an impact not only on her students learning but life as well by encouraging all to pursue their academic dreams, and on the struggles that working students and women students face in getting an education. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-46 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Bernadino California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Modern Language Studies Department Education, Higher Immigrants -- United States Kansas University Mexican Americans -- California -- San Diego County Mexican Americans -- Education (Higher) Mexicans -- United States Roma (Motion picture : 2018) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-08-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stella Clark Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colonia Roma (Mexico City, Mexico) East Lansing (Mich.) Lawrence (Kan.) Oxford (Miss.) San Bernadino (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Stella Clark CSUSM history Immigrant experience Latine experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6ff9cd68c278df4403b4ebdf2c7d2a87.pdf 92b750fac8d50ff76fff1e7642bb1fb5 PDF Text Text STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: All right. Thank you, Stella. This is Sean Visintainer, head of Special Collections at California State University San Marcos. Today I'm interviewing Dr. Stella Clark for our University Archives oral history collection. The date is August 9th, 2023, and this recording is happening on Zoom. Dr. Clark, thank you so much for interviewing with us today. Clark: I'm happy to be here answering your questions and having a chat with you. Visintainer: Yes. So we're really happy that you could join me for this interview as well. And so I wanted to start off talking about your childhood. And I understand you're originally from Mexico? Clark: I am. Visintainer: Where from, where in Mexico are you from? Clark: Well, I was born someplace else, but I should say that I was brought up in Mexico City. So, it's actually a big city. From the time that I was born, I was taken there. So it's not, you know, I mean it's--I didn't really change my life that much. Because actually Mexico City was a lot more advanced than where I went to live here in the United States. Because it was a city of five million. And I went to live in a town that had maybe twenty thousand? So, my dad was a college professor and he moved the whole family in the fifties. And I came along with the family. And my first experience in the United States was when I was in the eighth grade, in East Lansing, Michigan. So, it was quite a culture shock for me. Not because of Mexico to the US but because of the big city to the small town. And then we ended up living in Mississippi for most of, most of my high school years and my college years. So I ended, I started with the Midwest and then ended up in the South. And that is the deep south, Oxford, Mississippi. That's where I went to high school. And I went to college there. Visintainer: Okay. Clark: So that was a big culture shock, not because of the US thing, but because I came from the Midwest where I was getting kind of adjusted to US life in a small town to the big, to a smaller town in the south. And there was segregation at the time. So, of course I went to the white high school. Just because of the way I look. They never, they didn't think in the South, you're either black or you're white. At least at the time. They didn't go into any refinements of, you know, mestizo or mixed race or anything like that. So I ended up going to a white high school, and then I went to Ole Miss, the University of Mississippi. That's where I got my first degree. And then I ended up again in the Midwest, ‘cause I went to the University of Kansas for my graduate studies. And that's where another culture shock, because going from the deep South to the real--to the corn belt, you know? That was very conservative very, kind of a dull place to be, except that Lawrence, Kansas was a wonderful, wonderful town. And I got my degrees from the University of Kansas, both degrees, the MA and the PhD. And I met my husband there. And that was another culture shock because he's Cuban. And he was, you know, brought up very Cuban, even though he had lived in the US quite a bit. And so, we got married in 1967, so we just celebrated our fifty-sixth anniversary. Visintainer: Congratulations. Clark: Thank you. Yeah. We--our wedding date was August fifth, so we just celebrated it by doing nothing. (laughter) Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: That's how we just celebrated ours as well. Clark: Oh, congratulations to you. (Visintainer laughs) Visintainer: Thank you. Clark: So anyway, it was a, it was a very pleasant time at the University of Kansas. And then my whole-my dream was always to come to California. So, when I was--I started looking for a job. I applied to a lot of places in California and I sent like five hundred letters, something like that. And then my first job, fulltime faculty job was at Cal State San Bernardino. And I ended up staying there for nineteen years. So that was a whole early career, was at Cal State San Bernardino. Do you have any questions so far? Visintainer: I do. I actually wanted to circle back to Mexico. Clark: Okay. Visintainer: What neighborhood in Mexico City where you from? Clark: Colonia Roma. Visintainer: Okay. Okay. Clark: Have you seen the movie? Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. I saw Roma. And I've been there myself. It's a beautiful area. Clark: I lived there. I lived about five blocks from where that movie was shot. Visintainer: Okay. And that movie took place, when was that movie? It was the sixties, or? Clark: That was in the seventies. Visintainer: In the seventies. Clark: He (director Alfonso Cuarón) had to change a lot of things. He even had to do the (building) facades, but there are a lot of places that are the same as they were when I was a kid there in that neighborhood. And it was, it was a good place to live. My mother owned two townhouses there in Roma. So that's where I spent most of my childhood. But then she sold the houses when we moved to the US, for $5,000 each. And now, I think that would be in the millions. Visintainer: Yeah. Probably. Clark: It's a desirable neighborhood. Visintainer: Yes. Yeah. Definitely. What were--so why did your parents decide to emigrate? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Clark: Well, my dad was a college professor, and college professors don't work out in Mexico very well ‘cause they have to have other careers. They don't pay that much at the university, so they have to have a second career that, like a day job, you know? And so, and my dad was German. That's a long history. I don't, I don't even want to get into that because it's really complicated and interesting. But so he, you know, he married my mother and they decided that they, he wanted to get his PhD in Texas. At the University of Texas. So he went, came to the US to get his PhD and left the family behind. But he started taking us one by one. First he took my mom, then my little brother who was very young. And the whole time we were staying with relatives, so. Anyway, so we ended up finally the whole family in the US in 1956. The whole family in Lansing, Michigan. But we came piecemeal. So it was, you know, staying with aunts and uncles. And living in different areas where I was sort of the, I wasn't really in my, with my family. So we were kind of aimless. Because, you know, since I was with so many different relatives, but my dad had a purpose. And so, he said, when he brought the whole family, he was gonna create a goal for us. And we all ended up studying, you know, higher, getting higher degrees. Having careers. And so, because of my dad. He also made my mother get a PhD. So, we all got degrees at the University of Mississippi first. Visintainer: Okay. And what were your parents' PhDs in? Clark: My mom was in Spanish, like me, and my dad was in economics. He actually turned out to be a pretty well-known professor in the, in Latin American economics. And he was very productive, being a good German. He wrote a lot of books. And he ended up at the University of West Florida. That was his last job. So at the time, professors were not used to staying in one place. They were used to going from job to job to improve their status. And so, he was an assistant professor at Michigan State, and then Mississippi hired him as a full professor. So he jumped a rank, so to speak. And then you know, I always miss Mexico. Even now I miss Mexico. I don't go back very much. But to me, that's just home, you know, or something. I never could get, could develop a love like I have in my heart for Mexico, for any other places where I've lived. Visintainer: What is-Clark: Yes? Visintainer: Oh, I'm sorry to interrupt. What is it that you, what is it that you miss or that has that, that fills that place in your heart when you think of Mexico? Clark: It's hard to describe because when I get together with relatives from down there, I'm immediately at home. You know, it's as if I had never left. And I grew up with a cousin who was my age, and I just hated to leave her so much. She, we were best friends and I always wanted to see her. And I wasn't always able to go back there. And so, you know, I really missed her so much. And just the family relations, the--also Mexico City was so urbane. I always felt like I was kind of in the sticks in the towns that we lived in, in the US. And I would go to Mexico and my cousin was all, you know, she has this hairdo, and I'd say, “What is that?” I've never seen anything like it. Because it was a big city. So you live, it was kind of like being in New York, you know, like a New Yorker living in New York. So, I miss that aspect of it. But I just, I didn't even like Mexican things, you know like Mexican, so-called Mexican food. I never really liked it that much, but as soon as I moved to the US I just, I was missing tortillas. We had to get tortillas--in Michigan, we had to get tortillas in the can. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 3 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: Okay. Clark: And there was no place to go eat anything that was typical. And in my middle school, nobody! Nobody, but nobody spoke Spanish. Not even high school Spanish or anything. So nobody tried to help me out as I was developing. So I was getting used to living there. And I remember that this, the gym class made us, they made us take a shower. And I did not wanna take my clothes off in front of people I did know. Even though they were young girls, but they were strangers. So I did not wanna take my clothes off. So I went to the teacher, tried in my best bad English, tried to explain to her that I didn't wanna take my clothes off in front of my classmates. And she said, “That's too bad. You gotta take a shower. So, you can't just be in gym and then be all sweaty and go back to class.” So I would leave my, my bra and my panties on, and then I would have to go the rest of the day with wet underwear. So, that was just a really bad year for me. (laughs) Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I told my mom, and she finally, you know, I didn't wanna tell my mom I was embarrassed. Finally, she went to talk to the teacher, but she said, “No, no, she has to adjust to the,” you know, it's that mentality that, “No, no, no, she has to adjust.” You know, “Everybody's the same here.” So I had wet underwear the whole year. And in Michigan, that's not pleasant when it's winter. Visintainer: No, that sounds like it would be tough. Clark: Anyway, so that was, and I made friends in Michigan, but I don't know, it wasn't the same. It wasn't my cousins. It wasn't my, you know, I wasn't in the same school as my brother and sister, so that was a bad year for me. And then when we moved to Mississippi everything changed. It was, because Mississippi, believe it or not, the the ethos is more like Mexico (laughs) Because of the stratification, the social stratification. That you were kind of more with middle class people or whatever. And so, I don't know. I hate to say it, because it sounds, you know, I don't wanna admit to anything like that. So anyway, but Oxford was a small town, but it was very friendly, and it was very, they were very welcoming to us. So, everything changed. And that's when I finally started to adjust to living in the US. The people were real characters. Our English teacher in the high school was married to Faulkner's, William Faulkner's best friend. So she was, she was such a character. She would say, “Don't let the lighting bug bite you because you'll never get rid of it.” (laughter) So anyway, so it was, it was a different world. And I finally got used to living there, and I started to miss Mexico a little bit less and less every year. Visintainer: You mentioned that you were learning English when you came to the US if I understood correctly. So-Clark: Yes. I knew a lot of English already, because I had English from the time I was in kindergarten until the eighth grade when I came to the US. So-Visintainer: So you were learning English and kind of in class, I assume, as well as being immersed in the English language. I was curious about your Spanish-language skills. Did you speak Spanish in the home? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 4 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Clark: Of course. And I never forgot Spanish because I'm a reader, and I just always wanted to keep reading. We--my mother and I went to the library at Michigan State, and we checked out, you know, they had a big collection in Spanish of course. And so I checked out these Argentinian novels, and Colombian novels and everything. So I was always reading something that kept my skills up. I didn't do it on purpose, but I really wanted to stay, keep my Spanish so that when I went back to Mexico, people wouldn't make fun of me. Because they, you know, they said your English, your Spanish starts to get very what they call pocho. Which is, it has a lot of English influence. And I didn't wanna be called pocha. So I kept my Spanish skills as long as I could. And then I majored in French at Ole Miss. I was gonna major in math, but a woman professor who taught third semester calculus said to me, “I know why you're here. You're just looking for a husband.” And she just persecuted me in the class. So I said, “No, who needs this? I don't wanna be in this world.” So I switched to French, and I majored in French. And, and then that's another story, because when I went to--when I applied at KU for graduate school, I was supposed to go in the French department to get my PhD in French. But the department had split that year. It was a romance language department, and it split from Spanish and Portuguese into Spanish and Portuguese and French and Italian. So, they said, “Okay, you go here.” And all of a sudden you had to take all these Spanish classes. And I thought, well, I wonder why, but I'll, I'll take them. And I had taken more classes. They, I got a letter that says, you have to take more Spanish classes. And when I, when I was at Ole Miss, so I took more Spanish classes and I kept taking Spanish lit(erature) of different fields. And when I got there and I went to the advisor, he was the chair of the Spanish and Portuguese department, and he said, “You're gonna be teaching Spanish I as a TA (teacher’s assistant), and then you're gonna take these three Spanish classes.” (laughs) So I said, “Well, okay.” (laughter) I didn't, I was twenty you know, what did I know? So, I started taking Spanish classes. And it's a good thing because at the time, French was beginning to decline in demand, and I could never get used to speaking French either. I didn't like to, to say, oh. (laughs) I couldn't, you know, I just couldn't get used to the, the accent. So, I just stayed in Spanish. And that's what since you ask about my skills, they came in handy because I had read a lot of the works already as a kid, and I liked the people in the Spanish department. And that's where I stayed. Visintainer: Yeah, thank you. And I was, I was curious as to, because you went, you ended up, you know, getting your PhD in Spanish, how you kept those skills up being in an environment where outside of your home you didn't necessarily have the opportunity (Visintainer and Clark speaking over each other). Yes. Clark: I met the Cuban when I was my third year of graduate school. And he was in high school. So, his parents were my classmates. And so he was, you know my parents had a fit because he was nineteen. And when we got married, he turned twenty the next day. (laughs) And my parents thought he was gonna, he was too young. He was gonna, you know, leave me after a while. And I, but I thought, “Well, who cares? I'm gonna go for it.” And so, we spoke Spanish at home, and his parents spoke Spanish at, at home. So it was, I got into that other culture. And in fact, I got, I didn't have a Spanish accent when I was in college or with--when I was in high school. But I got, got the Spanish accent after living with Jose for all those years. Because we--and he doesn't have any accent. But anyway, so he came when he was fourteen, and so he had been in the US for five years. So anyway, that's how I ended up staying in the Spanish field. And kind of rediscovering my country through the academic degree. Because I specialize in Mexican literature. I met all these Mexican scholars. And I was in a totally different environment when I got back than I was Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 when I left. I didn't, I only had one aunt who was kind of an academic, but everybody else, you know, they were home. They stayed at home and they didn't, typical Mexican wife role. But I did have an aunt, who had the best collection of Mexican literature that I've ever seen anywhere. And I was trying to get her to leave it to me, but it didn't work out. So. Anyway anything about graduate school, or? Visintainer: Yeah I was, well I was curious when you moved, just to circle back a little bit, when you moved to Lansing. And you moved there, and then you went down south to Mississippi, and you talked about the culture shock. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about the culture shock. What you found as you were just starting to adjust to the Midwest. And then you moved to the South, what you found was shocking and the differences in those places. Clark: Well, the school, first of all, most of the schools I went to had all girls. And of course, the school in Michigan was a mixed, you know, boys and girls. And there were things happening. This is the time in the fifties that when education in the US totally did a change, a pivot, you know. Because I read a book called The Lonely Crowd. And it explains what happened in the US in the fifties, that the school systems started to do things very differently than before. For example, instead of having a desk that flipped--that had a lid, so you could keep all your stuff hidden, and private. It started to have these chairs with a, just a paddle where you could write on, and all your stuff was in view for the rest of the world. And they started to put your stuff on the bulletin board, your work on the bulletin board. And that was very alien to me. I had gone to these schools where everything was very regimented, the nuns and the-even I went to a school that was not Catholic. And it did have boys and girls, but it was very regimented. And you had to obey the teacher. You had to, when the teacher came in the room, you stood up. And when you went--were gonna go out, you had to get in single file. And everything was very regimented. And we wore uniforms. Whereas here in the school in Michigan, no uniforms. The classrooms were all like people sitting around tables. What was that? (laughs) Like the Socratic method, all of a sudden. (laughs) And people sitting around these open tables. And so the kid--the boys would put their feet up on the table, and the teacher didn't say anything. We had a science teacher who brought apples to the class. You know, eating in class? Wow. So things like that. And then just kind of a lack of structure at the time in the, in the school when I was used to all that. But at the same time, this kind of a Nazi-- no, I take that back. The gym teacher who says, “No, you will not, you will take a shower.” She wouldn't even let me like, go early and take a quick shower by myself. You know, she didn't wanna make any accommodations. So, I couldn't understand that. I understood authority cause of the nuns, but I don't know. I just--my mom never really followed the conventions. She was always a free spirit. So, in that way, we never had all the regimented things that you find in Mexico. Like my aunt died. Her sister died very young, and she would refuse to wear black. So, all her relatives criticized her. And then all my cousins were saying, “How come you're not wearing black?” So that was something that, you know, I was used to. But in the US there were some other things that some rigidity that I couldn't understand. Anyway, I was thirteen, you know, so that's not a good age to change cultures. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I was kind of, I was a kind of, well-developed thirteen, so the boys were starting to pay attention. But the boys in Mexico were eighteen, for example. You know, people are used to difference Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 in age. And the boys in Michigan were thirteen and they were shorter than I was. And just little boys. So that was also kind of sad because I was beginning to develop, you know, interest in the opposite sex. Plus the schools, you know, they were clannish. So of course, I was not a popular person because I didn't, I didn't speak the language. And I don't, I'm not talking about English, I'm talking about the teenage language, you know. I didn't have a group that I could hang out with. So I was kind of a nerd because I liked math. Then people didn't know where to put me cause I was too nerdish. And then at the same time, I was kind of sophisticated. I was more adult than they were. So it was a difficult time, to find a place there. Visintainer: When do you feel you found your place? Clark: Where? Visintainer: Where, yeah. Where? When? Clark: Kind of in Oxford. Because the girls were really friendly to me. Even the popular girls liked me. And they did the did the best they could to include me in all their activities and all the things that they were doing. And I found a friend there. We're still friends. We still write each other. We used to visit each other, but she was, she was a professor at USC (University of Southern California) and then she moved. She was--her father was a professor also. And this girl was, you know, she was kind of my intellectual equal in a way. She read a lot. She introduced me to a lot of English writers, cause her father was an English professor. And we used to kind of joke, with kind of sophisticated weight. I was--I really thought it was funny that I wish I had some stuff that I wrote when I was that age, because I think we were pretty witty at the time. And so that made me feel good. And she used to buy all these novels at the drugstore, and she would take off the front covers so her mother wouldn't know that they were X-rated (laughs). So, you know, I mean it was a fun time to be with somebody who was my age and was really into that stuff. And so she moved to Massachusetts, unfortunately. So that hit me in the head, because I don't fly anymore. And I don't think she's flying very much either. We're both--I'm gonna be eighty next month, and she's gonna be eighty in December, so we're getting there. So-Visintainer: But you've kept in touch. Clark: Yeah. Yeah. And that was great because she ended up at USC. She started out in Illinois, and then went to Texas, and she ended up at USC. So when she--her husband was at San Diego State, so she was living in La Jolla for a while. And we had to see each other a lot. So we still do a Zoom conversation once in a while. So that was, she contributed a lot to that. And then I have another friend that I stay in touch with who lives in Alabama. But we still stay in touch and they're Democrats (laughs). And then I had another friend who passed away two years ago. So, those three friends were great, and we were close. And so I didn't feel lonely anymore. I didn't date anybody until I was almost a freshman in college. I just wasn't attractive to guys, to the--I wasn't a southern bell. So I wasn't appealing to guys because I didn't just go and bat my eyelashes at anybody. I didn't know how to flirt at the time. Visintainer: Well and you needed you needed to find your group. Clark: Right. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: Yeah. So then you, you go to Lawrence (Kansas) after you graduated? Clark: Yes. Just, you know, my dad told me--asked me when I was a senior in high school, “Where is it that you wanna get your PhD?” (Laughs) He didn't even ask me, “Are you gonna get a PhD?” No. He says, “Where is it that you're going for your PhD?” So I, I'm one of those people who takes the first offer I get. I didn't take the first offer for marriage that I got, but I did take the first offer for graduate school. I took the first offer for the first job, for my first job. And then, the Cal State San Marcos job was kind of a first offer in the sense that it was new place. So anyway, I just I applied to places and I liked the--as I said, I was in French, so I applied at the University of Kansas because they had a good French department. So I got, it really appealed to me that, to study French at KU. And then I ended up studying Spanish. So. Visintainer: And so you came to KU and then you met Jose. And, so how did you meet Jose? Clark: Well, his parents were my classmates. Visintainer: That's right. Clark: And there was a party--this is a weird story too. There was a party, some Venezuelans, they--KU has an amazing number of programs with Latin America. I mean, just, you wouldn't believe it. And they had a program, with a Ford Foundation program to bring Venezuelan engineers to Kansas. So, my mother-in-law was the secretary to this project. And they invited her to a big party. And so her husband, who was also my classmate, and he was kind of a, had a roving eye. He had a crush on my roommate. So, he invited both of us so he could get to dance with my roommate. And then he went to Jose and said, “Hey, you know, I'm really interested in this girl. Would you mind dancing with the roommate?” (laughs) Who was me, “So that I can dance with Judy.” And so, he came and asked me to dance. And so, I thought, “Oh, how great.” Cause he was very good looking. And we just hit it off and we danced all night at that party. And at five in the morning his parents invited me to go have cognac in their--at their apartment. So, you know, we just started to see each other. But he was nineteen, and he looked like he was younger. So I thought, I'm really robbing the cradle big time, so I better stop this. So, I asked him point blank, how old are you? Because by this time, we had seen each other a couple of times, and he said, nineteen. And I thought, whew, you know, he's not underage (laughs). And also, you know, this is okay, we're having fun. No big deal. But we realized, you know, it was a lot more serious than we thought. So, we met--that was the Thanksgiving weekend of 1966. And we got married in (19)67 in August the next year. So, we didn't have a very long courtship. And what really speared that forward was that he was living with his parents in this duplex. And his grandmother was getting out of Cuba. You know, they were, they were Cuban refugees from the Castro regime. So, grandma was getting out and she had to share his bedroom, Jose's bedroom. So, I said, well, we couldn't live together. The department was very conservative, and I would've lost my assistantship if we had moved in together. It sounds hard to believe that people think in those terms now, but they were very, very conservative. So, I thought I didn't wanna jeopardize my studies. And so, we said, “Well, what do we do? We break up or we get married, you know, either one.” And so, he was just starting his freshman year anyway, so I said, “Well, I think we ought to break up because this is not--it's not viable.” I was living in this little apartment and, anyway I was making $240 a month, and I wasn't gonna marry somebody who didn't have any income. And his parents were students Transcribed by Aaron Williams 8 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 also. Cause when you got out of Cuba, no matter how much money you have, you have to get out with the clothes on your back. And his mother was a journalist, but she had, who came from a wealthy family, but she had to go work in a donut shop in Miami when they first came, got out of Cuba. So we didn't have any money, none of us. So I said, “Well, you know I don't know if we should get married. This is too serious. It's too soon.” And then, so then he gives me his grandmother's wedding band, and he says, “I'm serious. I really wanna marry you.” So we decided, okay, let's go ahead. And we got married and he got a job working in the language lab. And in the--at the library. (laughs) So we were living on like, with $350 a month. But we were living okay, you know? We discovered, yeah, we can make it go. And my parents came around and they really liked him, and they ended up just loving him to death, you know? So that was, that was a good thing. Even though a lot of people talked to us and said, “Don't do it. It's too soon.” Including the guy who married us was his speech professor. And he said, “Well, I'm not gonna marry you guys until I talk to you quite a bit.” So we had to go to his house many times. So he would give us--he was a Methodist minister, as well as being a professor on campus. And he talked to us a lot. And finally he says, “Yeah, I think you're gonna do okay.” And so, he married us. We had a very plain, very simple wedding in his parents' duplex. We invited friends who were also graduate students. They brought food. It was kind of a potluck. And here we are, fifty-six years later. Visintainer: It was a good start then. Clark: Yeah. That's been, to me, that's been the best part of my life is, you know, having Jose next to me for fifty-six years. Most of our lives. Anyway, so that was KU. I got my PhD in Spanish in ‘71. Like everybody else, I had to apply to a million places for a job. And I had, San Bernardino sounded really good to me because it was in California. I had my best friend, my best friend at KU was teaching there already. She had gotten her PhD at Ohio State, and she'd gotten hired at San Bernardino. We could have been done the same time, but I just, I wasn't in any hurry because Jose was not, wasn't graduating until ‘71. Oh, sorry. (laughs) Visintainer: No, you're fine. Clark: Tell me if I'm giving you too much information. Visintainer: No, no, no. It's really interesting. I'm happy you're sharing and thank you for sharing. So, Jose was graduating in 1971, so you had some time to kind of figure out your next steps. Clark: Yes. We didn't know what he was gonna do. So, he applied to graduate schools and he got accepted at UC Irvine. So we were happily planning for that. And of course, I had to stay in San Bernardino cause I've never been a good driver. So, he was gonna drive to Irvine to go to graduate school there. But he thought the drive was a little bit too long. And we weren't used to commuting and all that California life. So he applied at the library at Cal State San Bernardino. They had a temporary job, and it was perfect. He just loved it. So, he started working there. And that was ironic because there were a lot of jobs that I didn't take because--that I didn't pursue, because they were always asking me, “What's your husband gonna do? What's he gonna work at?” And so they would turn off because he didn't, he was--didn't have a job yet. And I was also childbearing age, and a lot of people didn't wanna hire you. I won't mention a couple of universities that I got approached by. And according to my professors, I had a really good chance to get--go there. But they were worried about Jose. So ironically, he started working where I worked. And then he got another job since that was only, that was Transcribed by Aaron Williams 9 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 temporary. The funds for that dried up. And so, the University of Redlands hired him. The library there. And he loved it. But I said, “No, you better get your degree because you can't be, just be a clerk all the time.” So he started going to USC and very slowly, and finally I said, “No, you just quit whatever you're doing and finish your degree, because that's the only way you're gonna have a career out of being a librarian.” And sure enough, it worked out so well because he's loved that career. And it's kept us on an even keel, always. Because my career sometimes was high pressure ‘cause I did some administrative work along the way. And so he, it was always good to have him in this job that he loved. And that wasn't super high pressure until he got in the county. And then that turned out to be very high pressure because he was--he became a supervisor. And that's, you know, anytime you go into administration, that's it for you because you start leaving the job that you love and doing a job that pays better, but gives you a little more prestige. But-- (laughs). Visintainer: Yep. It's very true. Well, as a librarian, I'm very happy that Jose was able to find his avocation in our vocation. Clark: I know. And it's, you know, librarian is such an interesting, has such an interesting opportunity to do all kinds of different things. So that he's found that, and he's always worked with women really well, you know, because so many women are in the library. And I work with men really well. So, we compliment each other because we're not jealous people who think, “Oh, you're gonna be with this person.” You know, I just always hung out with guys in my profession. And he's always gotten along with women and met--made really good friends in both areas. Visintainer: Yeah. And to circle back a little bit to coming to CSU San Bernardino, you mentioned that you had wanted to go to California, and I was curious as to what was the draw for California as opposed to other parts of the United States? Clark: Well, California has always had really good press, maybe until now that the states are so divided. But it always, it was always like paradise, if you wanna go to paradise in the US, go to California. And they show you all these orange groves and this beautiful weather and the ocean. And it was just, it just has a good ethos, you know? So I always really wanted to go to California. My parents ended up in Florida. I never had any desire to go to Florida, and for any, every reason in the world. But somehow California just seemed like this paradise. And also, you know, LA. Wow. San Francisco. (laughs) My dad lived in San Francisco many years, and he was always talking about San Francisco being such a great place. And then LA with Hollywood and, you know, just sounded like--plus the proximity to Mexico. You know, I always kept thinking, “Well, if I'm in California, I can always cross the border.” You know, I always felt kind of uneasy when I felt--when I lived really far from the border. Which is ironic because now I never get down there (laughs) you know, just. But I did find some relatives who live in Tijuana, so that's been great. You know, they come to visit. And, it's really good to keep track of my family that way. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: I found them on Facebook of all places (laughs). Visintainer: So Facebook has some, has some good things about it. Clark: Yeah. (laughs) Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: You can connect people. So you came to, so what was the decision to leave CSU San Bernardino and come to San Marcos? Clark: Well, when I was about three or four years before I left there, I discovered that I'd like to be an administrator. Because the Dean of Humanities left, and he asked me if I would be his replacement. So even though it was a really hard job, because he didn't look after any budgets. I mean, he was just so, he was a wild, loose, kind of a loose cannon. And I had to go, and as one colleague told me, I had to go shovel a lot of cages at the zoo when I took over that job. But I loved that job. So, it was an interim job. I had it for two years, and then I, when I applied for the permanent job, I didn't get it. So, I thought, “Well I, but I wanna do this.” So I started applying different places for dean's jobs. And I got, I did pretty well in the market, but it just wasn't appealing to me to go for several reasons. I had been in San Bernardino for nineteen years. I was used to the good weather. And so this, the Cal State San Marcos thing came up and he said, “You know, you start the, a program from scratch. Start the department from scratch.” And so I talked to people about it, and they, I said, “What do you do?” And says, “Oh, you can hire the kind of people that you want. You can go after the kind of faculty that you want. You can create the kind of curriculum that you want that you find is good. You can do a lot of stuff. It's, it's a huge opportunity.” So, I applied for it, and sure enough, I got the job. So it was--I moved kind of laterally because I had tenure there. I was a full professor. But I had no idea of all the horrendous amount of work that you have to do when you start a program. And, I probably wouldn't do it again. And my dad had done that in Florida, and he said, “Oh, be careful, because it's so much work.” And I just, you know, I just went in there thinking, “Well, how bad can it be?” And it was pretty bad (laughs) because I had to work year-round. And it was one thing after the other. I'll give you an example. Marion Ried (Dean of the University Library) came up to me and she was in charge of some funds that were assigned to the university. I don't know why they put her in charge of that. But anyway, she says, “You know, there's $150,000 earmarked for a language lab, and if you don't spend it,” this is in April when she talked to me, “If you don't spend it by the end of June, Bill Stacy's gonna take it.” He was the (university) president. “He's gonna just take it and spend it on something else because it’s gonna become available to the whole campus.” And I said, “We can't have a language department without a language lab. No way.” So, I had to go buy a language lab, and I had from April to end of June to do that. Well, how do you do that? Visintainer: Yeah, where did you begin? Clark: Yeah. I was lucky enough that the San Bernardino campus had redone its language lab, and they had formed a committee and they had, you know, interviewed different lab companies. And they had decided what kind of lab they wanted. And they already had the infrastructure though. And I had to start from zero. So I went to talk to the guy who ran that lab. Fortunately, he was somebody that I had supervised, and he just loved me. So he gave me all kinds of information and all kinds of help about what some of the pitfalls would be. And I picked that lab that, it was a Norwegian company, something like that. Norwegian, I think Norwegian. And I had to come up with a sole-source justification in just a little bit of time, because there was another company that was saying, “Why didn't you pick us? Why didn't you buy our lab?” And then I was lucky because I got two faculty who came, and they were very versed on the--they came from UC Irvine, and they had learned how the lab can be used as a teaching tool. And it was, you know, they had done workshops and they had done all kinds of stuff. And that's one of the reasons that I picked them to come be our next faculty. Because they had learned so much about what a language lab does other than just be an aide. Electronic aid, you know, technology aid. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 11 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 And it was a married couple. They both came together. And so she was the, she was doing all the all the software kind of stuff, and he was doing all the hardware kind of stuff. So, I was lucky that way that I-but I also see that as part of a, you know, being hired with experience. Because if I had been hired out of graduate school, I wouldn't have been able to do anything like that. And so, because I came with having chaired the department, having been a dean, and when you're Dean of Humanities, you deal with a lot of equipment. Because I had the arts under my supervision. And I had to deal with lots of interesting types of equipment. So it worked out. But it was a very tough two years. I was in, at one point, I was in like thirty-five hiring committees. Visintainer: Wow! Clark: And one of those committees was for literature, the literature department, which was called English at the time. We had eight hundred applicants for one position. Visintainer: Wow. Clark: So, you had to learn how to, you know, how to process stuff very quickly. And so, and also I had learned how to deal with administrators, higher administrators, to negotiate for things. So I was a little bit more informed as to how to deal with things. Because a lot of the faculty don't, they don't deal with anybody. They just go on, they do their great teaching and they do their research, but they don't they're not used to wheeling and dealing, for example. And so I learned very quickly that the first best, the people who got the best things, were wheelers and dealers in the faculty. I learned from some of my colleagues very well because you don't just get things by saying, “Yes, I accept the job. I'll be there this day. When do I start working?” You have to say, you know, “What, how much office space am I gonna get (laughs)? How much--what is gonna be my budget for traveling and for hiring? And how many faculty am I gonna have in five years? When you had to start that kind of thing. And in a way, I was not that good when I first came, but I learned very quickly. Very, very quickly you learned that. So that's what brought me to San Marcos wasn't the weather like a lot of people (laughs). It was the opportunity of starting a new department. And that was really interesting. But ironically, my ideal colleague--I was able to hire this guy. He was just wonderful. But he hated California. He couldn't, he couldn't live away from his mom. And so he left after two years. But I did get some of the other faculty that I think are ideal and wonderful. They're still here. Visintainer: That's good. So what was your vision when you started the department? Clark: Well, I wanted to, I wanted to have a major that would give the students the opportunity to go in different directions and to get lots of skills without having to, you know, because a lot of the majors are very academic. And I love the--I love that, but it doesn't give them many tools like to be teachers or to be like, go to work in business. And so I wanted to major that would be, that would help students be very versatile. And they could go in lots of different fields. And I think I accomplished that. Our major was, there were only two of us working on the major at the beginning, and it got accepted by the chancellor's office on the first meeting, you know. Because we came up with this modular plan, and also just wanted to hire a lot of faculty that I would love to work with. That was my vision as the harmonious department, because if people don't get along--and I came from a lot of programs where people didn't get along at all. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 12 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: That's really interesting. Cause yeah., cause there's a lot of at times disharmony in academia. Clark: Oh yeah! Visintainer: And in some ways, you know, for a good reason because there's a lot of debate and thought that has to go into things. ButClark: I mean, a department is made up of a whole bunch of prima donnas. Visintainer: Yeah. (laughs) So how did you go about building harmony in a department, in your department? Clark: I don't know. I can't tell you exactly. You just have a feel for people. And I was, I just use my instincts a lot. And so I try to get people to apply that I knew were very easy to work with, that love to work with you, that no matter what you ask of them, they would do it. But the guy who came with me, the first guy, we went too far because he never said no to anybody. And at some point he burned out. But he was good to work with. I mean, he was good to be here the first two years. Unfortunately, he passed away not too long ago. But, anyway he--so I just, I just had a feeling that people who were my friends, besides being my colleagues. And I knew a lot of people, you know. I had--they applied a lot of people from different areas applied here because I went, I worked a long time for grading the Advanced Placement (AP) exam. So, I had a huge network because those, you meet people every year, and you get to know each other. And so that's what it was, just, you know--and then what my big goal was always to help people thrive. And not put any obstacles in their development. And one of my professors at KU said, because I, my dissertation was kind of weird. And then I said, “You know, I'm surprised that, that you approved it, because I know that it is very unconventional approach to literature.” And he said, “Look, to me, your dissertation is your beginning work. If I'm gonna consider that your master work, then you're in trouble. Because this is what's gonna kick you into the field and into the academic world.” And I did have a professor who didn't wanna approve it, and these guys kind of rallied. And they said, “We couldn't, you couldn't take it out of the building to read it.” And so, he refused to go to read it in the building. Visintainer: What, so what--what was weird about your dissertation? Clark: Well, it was a very like a very close reading of some works. Very, very close. I was using a method that was kind of controversial at the time. It was called the--what is it called? My head is not working anymore. But anyway, you, if you read a work very closely, you analyze, you know like even stylistic patterns in something. You can kind of make conclusions that are much broader about the work then you can if you approach it from the outside and just look at the--look at it from a bird's eye view. Like if you read something and you say, the plot is this and the blah, blah, blah. But if you’re really close, read closely and about all the language used in it and everything. And some people at the time didn't like that method. It was an, it was a method followed by some English writers, American writers. It was an American thing. But I applied it to Mexican literature. So, a lot of people thought that was, it was stupid that it didn't lead you anywhere. And this writer that I went--that I wrote on, had been written on by a lot of people. And so this guy who didn't wanna pass me said, “Where's the, where's the biography of this writer? Where's the list of the his works? You don't learn anything about the guy.” I said, “No, no, no. I don't Transcribed by Aaron Williams 13 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 wanna learn about the guy. I wanna learn about the worlds he's creating in his works. You know, what kind of world is he creating with the use of this language?” And so it was--you know, some people thought it was too weird or maybe it didn't go far enough out. You know, it was not a universal thing. But it was, I was kind of following a method by an anthropologist (Claude) Lévi-Strauss, you know. Have you heard of Lévi-Strauss? Visintainer: I have not. Clark: Anyway, he studied people by patterns of--I'm losing my train of thought here. He studied people by the patterns in their culture, not coming from you know, the outside and saying, “Oh, they do this, they eat at this time.” But it's following very, very specific things that they did. Anyway. So it worked for me and, and I learned a lot about analyzing literature. And so that helped me in my teaching. So, whereas this guy, the professor who didn't wanna pass me, pass my dissertation. Well he--I had a course from him and he ordered ten books. It was gonna, it was Romanticism in Spain, okay. Romanticism in literature in Spain. And he started with the eighteenth century before Romanticism. And he gave us so much stuff about the eighteenth century, he never got to Romanticism. So I returned all the books without reading them because he never got to the subject. And so that's, I wanted to avoid that at all costs. I said, “I wanna read the works, I wanna see what the work is itself, and I don't care if the author was, you know, if he was gay, if he was an idiot, I don't care. I wanna see what he left behind.” So it was very close text reading, textual reading. And some people didn't appreciate that. So. But it served me well. Lemme tell you, I use that method throughout my career and it really helped. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I'm still reading like that. I don't read as much anymore, but I'm still kind of, “Oh look, this word he uses here.” Anyway, any more questions? Visintainer: Yeah. Could we circle back to the kind of the founding of the department? Clark: Yes. Visintainer: And I was just curious, what do you think was your, like your biggest challenge in those early years in founding the department, and coming on board at CSUSM? Clark: Oh, I don't wanna say. Visintainer: (Laughs) Well, you don't have, you don't have to answer if you don't want to. Clark: No, no. Because, because this campus developed very--I came from a very organized campus. And most people didn’t wanna realize that this was a CSU campus. They thought they were gonna create something from scratch that was brand new. And there are all these people who came from these different backgrounds, like faculty who came from liberal stu--liberal arts colleges, from big research universities. And I said, “This is a Cal State, people. We, that doesn't mean we have to look down on anybody, but it's, we have to be real about who the students are gonna be, and then what they need to learn.” So, ‘cause I've always been kind of an elitist in my, in my own mind, but not when it comes to educating students. I think, you know, you really need to consider the fact that people come from Transcribed by Aaron Williams 14 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 backgrounds that maybe aren't, they're not up to here academically, but they're very bright people. So just look at them, look at their interests, look at their--what they wanna learn. And I always love the Cal States because people pay for their own education. People pay for their, you know, they’re often the first person in their family to go to college. They work forty hours a week to go to college. They have children, they have other interests. They have jobs, they have parents. If you come from a Latino family, you know, you have to take care of your parents. They have husbands who don't want them to study. There's machismo there. You know, a big, big obstacle for Latina women. Anyway, just look at the students that we get, and don't look down on them. Look at what the possibilities are with these people because they're, they wanna learn. They're here because they want to be, not because, you know like when my last class at KU was on Friday, it would meet Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays at four o'clock in the afternoon. And sometimes on a Friday, I wouldn't have anybody showing up. Even though they knew that it counted, that I took off for absences. They just didn't care, you know, because they were gonna go into daddy's business, or they were gonna go into their uncle’s (business), you know, these people who they just weren't interested. And so, I said, that's what I love about the Cal State, is it has such a mission of, like now it's right in line with us because of the upward mobility. Because I was lucky that I didn't have to think about that, ‘cause I had parents who were educated. I always had books in my house. I always had. But these people who are, they've never seen a book in their house. They don't even get a magazine. And all of a sudden they have to, they have all these things thrown at them, but they wanna learn. So, I always had a lot of respect for the Cal State system for that reason. And a lot of my colleagues just, it makes me sad that they think the students are not up to par, blah, blah, blah. But it's, I've always loved the state universities because they want to educate the masses. And I love, I love for the masses to learn! And I like to be in the trenches. So that was why I didn't wanna leave the system. At the same time, you know, I yearned for these people who, like my friend, the USC friend, she’s taught-she's had years when she taught five or six student graduate students. And that's her whole teaching load. Where my advisor who had a chair at KU and he could just go. He went through South America traveling one year and left us in his house, to house sit for them. And, just visiting different universities and different libraries and doing research all over the place for his book. And he didn't have to teach a single class in two years. So I yearn for that, but at the same time, I like the idea of seeing people. And I still have people who, you know, look me up. Visintainer: That's impact. Clark: My students have retired already. Some of my students, my first students from San Bernardino. Yeah this one woman, she tracked me down here, and every year she and her husband come to visit us for when they come on vacation. And she's a retired teacher already. So it's, you know, it's very sad how some people don't care. Once the students leave, that's it. Visintainer: Yeah. I think there's definitely an ethos that comes from--that comes from being at a teaching university and embracing it and-Clark: Right. Visintainer: Great things that it can do for social mobility and upward mobility. And I appreciated you mentioning and talking about our students. And that kind of had me spur a question that I wanted to ask Transcribed by Aaron Williams 15 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 you. And was, what do you think was the big takeaway that you've learned from our students over the years? Clark: That they want, they want to learn and that they want to prosper. And very often their circumstances do not allow them to prosper, and do not allow them to learn. Many, many people I had to--I had a husband one time coming from a student who was in a couple of my classes, and he said, “I wanna come and sit in your classes cause I wanna watch my wife and make sure she doesn't talk to any guys.” I said, “No, you're not welcome there, because you're not a student and you're there for the wrong reasons.” So, I was worried that she was gonna get the brunt of that, but she eventually left that guy. But he would sabotage her learning. And I think, you know, and she kept going. She kept going. And I had another one here on this campus who, she was regularly beaten by her husband because she wasn't--she didn't have the food cooked when she, you know, she was in class and she didn't have the meal prepared. And so she's--but she went ahead and got her master's degree somehow. And I think the students are very resilient and they work very hard to make it. They don't, of course there are a lot of deadbeats too, but that doesn't--they're everywhere. But the majority of the students, I mean, I ask in class, I never had to work as a waitress or anything like that, you know. And I asked in my class one time, “What, how many of you're working?” And I would say, I would calculate like eighty percent raised their hands. And I said, “How many of you work more than twenty hours a week?” And most of them raise their hands again. Whereas, you know, I got to work in the language lab, I got--but that was for my extras. You know, my dad said, “If you want this and that, if you wanna buy records or if you wanna buy this.” But we didn't have to go to work. And we had a home that supported doing homework. And my mom wasn't around completely. But anyway. It was good. I had a good upbringing in that sense, and I wanted the students to get help that way. So I did a few things that weren't, didn't mean very much but for example, when I went to Mexico City you can buy books. Like you can buy literature in the newsstands for like fifty cents a book or something. So, I would buy if I knew I was gonna use the book in my class, if you order it from, well now Amazon, but if you order it from a bookstore, they'd have to pay like ten dollars for that book. And I would buy all these books for fifty cents and then bring them back and say, “If you can't afford the books, come and see me.” So, they would come, sometimes very ashamed. But I said, “Don't be, don't be embarrassed. Just, you know, just come and see me.” And I’d say, “Okay, you can use this book. Use it in the class. If you really like it and you wanna keep it for your library, you can keep it. If you don't wanna keep it, just give it back to me.” And they would always keep it, because they were building a library. That was so cool. And then all my books, when my mother died, all her books came to me. And there were duplicates of a lot of stuff I had. So I took them to the office and I said to the graduate students, “Take anything you want.” And now we're, fortunately we get to leave things to the campus. We're fortunate that we're--we decided to leave our estate to the campus. Because we want to, we want students to prosper in any way they can. And sometimes it's just a question of a thousand dollars that's gonna put them over the edge. I wish we had millions, but we don't. So. Visintainer: Well that's, that's wonderful to be able to leave something to foster student success in the future. Clark: Yeah. Because I have a family, but they can look after themselves, they've had good opportunities. And, we don't have kids. So we're not responsible for anybody in particular. So, I don't wanna make, I don't wanna tire you because I've been talking so much about myself (laughs). Transcribed by Aaron Williams 16 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: No, no, you're fine. Well, we can, we can certainly look towards wrapping things up. I've enjoyed talking with you. I did wanna--I did want to ask you kind of a wrap up question. Is that, is there anything that you wish I would've asked you that I didn't? Clark: Not really. I think, I can just go ahead and talk forever about all this. It's an eighty-year-old life, so eighty years of being on this earth, that's a long time. And so there’s things that I don't remember at all. And the things that I remember so vividly, and when I went to see Roma (2018 film), I just cried throughout the whole movie. Bought it on Netflix, but I just--I cried and cried, and cried the whole movie. Because he captures that neighborhood so well. And he, there's a documentary that where he explains how he captured that neighborhood. And he was really meticulous about every single thing, like those little soldiers at parade every morning. I mean, there were details like that, that I've never seen in a movie before. And also because Mexico City always looks like a, this gray place with dirt, dirt streets and everything. And here's this guy who is just--captures the neighborhood that I grew up in. I mean, what are the chances? Because most people show you the tourist view of Mexico City. And so that's what, that's what I miss. It's like the daily noises, and the daily routines, and the kind of house that it is and the maid. Very sad because we did have a couple of maids, like the--like this girl, they would come and knock on your door and say they were there from Oaxaca and did you have any, did you have any work for them? And my mother took, did take a couple of people like that. We didn't have any money at the time, but anyway, she did take a couple of these girls. And they didn't even speak Spanish, these poor girls. So that just--that really got me, that movie. And so I always tell people, if you wanna get to know me, watch that movie. But I don't, I'm not the maid. I'm the, I'm the person from the señora, you know? Because the grandma didn't even know her name. And then I kept thinking, I didn't know any of these girl's names. I didn't know where they came from. And when she has a baby, and they take her to the hospital, says, “What's her name?” And she doesn't even know her name. Because there's, it's another world that I never got to know. And I used to think, “Oh, Oaxaca, that has to be the scum of the earth.” And, and I fell in love with Oaxaca the first time I went there. It kind of shows you that you don't, you never appreciate your own world until you're out of it. Visintainer: Yeah I, you know, as somebody who did not grow up in Roma but I saw the movie, I thought it was an amazing, just an amazing creation of space. And I didn't know if it was you know, how particularly accurate it was or not. So, it's nice to hear that it really spoke to you on an emotional and memory level. Clark: Yeah. There, this little scene, there's a scene when the guy leaves her (Cleodegaria "Cleo" Gutiérrez, main character of Roma), she says she's pregnant and the guy leaves her, and she's sitting on the steps of this movie theater. And there are all these noises because people go outside of the movie theater, they're selling a lot of stuff. Little toys and everything. And she's just surrounded by all these noises and she's just sitting there in her loneliness, you know? And here's the interesting cultural thing is that nobody goes to the movies on Sundays, except the maids and their boyfriends and, you know, the domestic help. That's when they go to the movies, and they go see Mexican movies. The middle class goes to see the American movies first run, you know. And they go during the week or on the week--on Saturday, but not on Sunday afternoon, belongs to the servants. So it's an upstairs/downstairs world that most people don't realize. And, so it's kind of hard to also to explain that to people that, you may not have anything in common who is from Mexico. There are people from Mexico that I have absolutely nothing in common with. Cause they were brought up--we had a cleaning lady, and she would not, she invited us to her house on her birthday. She would not sit down with us to eat, even though it was her birthday. And I knew. I understood it. And I, we didn't insist on anything, because she would not sit Transcribed by Aaron Williams 17 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 down with us to eat. So that's--it's a different world that is very hard to explain to people. And, so that's another challenge for me that I live in two worlds in my head. I've got one foot here and one foot there and they never come together. Visintainer: And I think that that's probably an experience for folks that move from country to country or even within countries. Clark: Exiles. Yeah. People who have grown up somewhere else. And, who was I talking to about that the other day? It was very interesting because we were saying because I--oh, I have a lot of, most of my friends are really from someplace else (laughs). Even though, not on purpose, they're faculty on campus. But, I was looking at my, one of my Zumba classes. There was nobody born in the US in that Zumba class. I don't know. I kept seeing, maybe there was one person. But there was a woman from Colombia, there was a woman from Japan, another one from Puerto Rico. Well, Puerto Rico's US, but they have another culture. And so it was just so strange that we're exiles and we do have a common denominator, but that never reaches you the most in the deepest way. You always have, you always have this farness. Visintainer: And I, yes. I wanted to share that I lived in the Rio Grande Valley of TexasClark: Oh, you did? Visintainer: And, yeah. And when I was there, you know, I had somebody tell me what they thought of the Valley, and I thought it was really interesting in that that he said, “It's a liminal place. It's a place that's not quite Texas, it's not quite Mexico.” It exists in its own way and with its own rules and its own identity. And that causes, in some ways, for folks that live in the Rio Grande Valley, that sense of displacement when they’re in other places because they don't feel quite--and I'm speaking in generalities but, you know, there's a feeling of not quite being Texas, not quite being the US, not quite being Mexico all wrapped into its own place and culture. That was really interesting. And, and I really-Clark: Yeah, I really wanna visit with you sometime and hear more about you, so. Visintainer: Yeah. Well, we can get together and chat, but this is not about me, and I just went on a tangent. I apologize. (laughs) Clark: I know, I know. No. No, but it's good. It's good. So well, thank you for the interview and I hope I didn't leave anything major out. But if I did, give me a call or send me an email because, you know how I'm always willing to talk about myself. (laughs) Visintainer: Sure, sure. Well I really appreciate you chatting with me today, Stella. And I'm gonna pause recording and then, and then we can wrap up with anything else. Clark: Okay. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 18 2024-04-26 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clark, Stella. Interview transcript, August 9, 2023. Description An account of the resource Dr. Stella Clark grew up in Colonia Roma, Mexico City, and moved to the U.S. in her early childhood. She grew up in a family who valued education; both her parents received a PhD and she was expected to get one as well. Clark received her bachelor's degree in French and her master's and PhD degrees in Spanish. She began her professional career at California State University, San Bernardino and eventually applied to California State University San Marcos, where she founded the Modern Languages Department and created the university's language lab. In her interview, Clark discusses how she made an impact not only on her students learning but life as well by encouraging all to pursue their academic dreams, and on the struggles that working students and women students face in getting an education. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stella Clark Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-08-09 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Bernadino California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Modern Language Studies Department Education, Higher Immigrants -- United States Kansas University Mexican Americans -- California -- San Diego County Mexican Americans -- Education (Higher) Mexicans -- United States Roma (Motion picture : 2018) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colonia Roma (Mexico City, Mexico) East Lansing (Mich.) Lawrence (Kan.) Oxford (Miss.) San Bernadino County (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. 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The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ClarkStella_VisintainerSean_2023-08-09_transcript CSUSM history Immigrant experience Latine experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steve Wagner OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Stone Brewing Company;Brewing history;Brewers;San Diego breweries;IPA OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Wagner, Steve. Interview October 24, 2018. SC027-064 01:00:20 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Stone Brewing Company ; Brewing history ; Brewers ; San Diego breweries ; IPA Steve Wagner Judith Downie audio 1.0:|18(14)|35(14)|50(7)|62(19)|73(3)|91(19)|104(5)|128(4)|146(11)|162(19)|175(12)|196(3)|208(16)|227(11)|244(8)|265(16)|290(2)|310(11)|322(7)|343(9)|360(13)|375(11)|390(12)|413(13)|427(3)|444(5)|463(15)|477(15)|493(19)|505(13)|523(17)|540(9)|568(4)|591(3)|613(16)|629(11)|637(10)|654(5)|669(14)|684(6)|699(10)|721(10)|739(6)|754(15)|773(2)|787(16)|803(15)|820(9)|842(6)|856(5)|875(17)|896(12)|918(19)|933(7)|945(10)|966(14)|986(15)|998(10)|1016(10)|1030(6)|1036(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4c12a198b29a2ac447131d9f6636ed05.mp3 Other audio Oral history Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Judith Downie: Today is October 24th, 2018. Judith Downie interviewer for the CSUSM Brewchive® with Steve Wagner, co-founder and co-owner of Stone Brewing. Steve Wagner: (Aside to office staff) Okay. Don't have to worry about that. Alright, great. Downie: So if you will first state your name and position. Wagner: Okay. This is Steve Wagner, I am the cofounder and president of Stone Brewing Company. Downie: Okay. And so if we could get into a little bit of your own background, what the path that led you to Stone would be very informative. Wagner: Yes, absolutely. My story starts in Evanston, Illinois suburb of Chicago where I was born. 1958 and my parents had attended Northwestern University. So, I grew up in the Chicago area until I was about 10 years old and my family moved to Los Angeles, California. My father took a job with Mattel Toy Company , which was very exciting for me and my brothers. In fact, I think that's where my first entrepreneurial venture was. I would get some of the new Hot Wheels™ cars before they were released and I would sell them to my school mates, at highly inflated prices because they were collecting them and they could get them before they came out. Downie: Yeah, hot demand for something nobody else had. Boy, you were doing it… Wagner: It was better, I made more money than the lemonade stand. I'll put it that way. Downie: Now of course, did you ever get into trouble for doing that either from Mattel or from the school because you were conducting business on school property? Wagner: Nope. Never got caught. So, okay, let's see. So, interests before brewing. While I was a lifelong musician, I started studying piano growing up in Chicago. When I think when I was six years old, I started taking piano lessons and played all the way through high school, had some incredible teachers and actually in high school I started playing some guitar and bass and started playing in some bands, some high school bands. And then, college I went to UC Santa Cruz. So, I was an English lit major and still played some music, with some friends and things. And then after college I moved back to Los Angeles and I was working in some restaurants and, you know, basically trying to figure out what to do and ended up meeting some other musicians at a party and we decided to form a band. And that was the beginning of the Balancing Act, which was the, I guess you'd say, the most successful band I was in. We ended up self-producing our first record and putting it out on our own label. So again, some, good entrepreneurial experience. Downie: So was this an LP? Wagner: It was an EP actually , an extended play. It was six songs I believe were on it. Just vinyl, this was right before CDs kind of became the new format. And, yeah, it was fun and we got some nice critical recognition and acclaim and, you know, played a lot in, in Southern California. And then, we actually got signed to I.R.S. records, which was a pretty cool record label at that time. And we ended up recording and releasing two albums for that label. Got to tour all over the US multiple times and every college town now I think in the US. (laughs) Those were our people. Downie: And so this was still as The Balancing Act? Wagner: Yes. Yep. And so, yeah, it was, it was a really great experience and it was four of us and we all wrote songs and sang. It was very much a collective and we had a lot of fun. Yeah, let's see. So, then I started, uh, I think that band, eventually we went our separate ways and I played in some other groups, a band in LA called the Bedshredders and another band called Walker Stories. I did some studio work and played, you know, played on recordings for other people and things like that. But I was kind of at that point thinking, okay, I was, I got married. I was not that keen to go back out on tour and on the road and do things like that. So, I was trying to think of what the next step in my career would be. And one of the guys in, actually I played with in both the Bedshredders and Walker Stories invited me over to do some homebrewing at his house. He was a homebrewer and I went over and did that and was immediately captivated by the process of brewing your own beer. I was already a beer fan and I mean, my touring days, you know, you'd always get, the band would get, a case of beer and I’d like try to get them to give us something, you know, a little out of the ordinary or something local. But there wasn't much choice in those days, but still enjoyed it. Downie: This would have been about what year? Wagner: This was the mid to late eighties, early nineties. Downie: So craft brewing is just starting to get a hold in places? Wagner: Yeah, you know, Sierra Nevada was around, but I think they were still really only California probably. Yeah, there were a few other things, but not much. So, let's see. So, yeah, I started homebrewing on my own ‘cause I wanted to do it more often and you know, really read up and studied as much as I could about it and brewed a lot and joined some Homebrew clubs in Los Angeles and really tried to learn as much as I could about it and do it in my spare time . And, as part of that journey, I wanted to, they were offering classes at (University of California) Davis in Northern California, extension classes on advanced home brewing and sensory evaluation of beer. And so I decided to make the trip up there one weekend to, you know, try to learn some more and check out the school up there. And so I went, I think on a Friday there was an advanced home brewing class that I went to and then on Saturday it was the sensory evaluation of beer class. And I look across the room and I see this long-haired guy and I go, ‘Wait a minute, that's my rock and roll landlord, Greg Koch.’ And it was funny, you know, I didn't, it was out of context and I think it took me a little while to figure out who it was and I'm like, ‘Oh yeah’, ‘cause we didn't know each other that well. We were acquaintances. Because he tells the story, he didn't know me that well ‘cause my band actually paid that rent on time. So, we rented music rehearsal space from his company. Downie: Now this was the LA location? Wagner: Yeah, downtown Los Angeles. Downie: There was a San Francisco location for a while. Wagner: Yeah. This was the downtown Los Angeles location. And so, you know, when we had the first break I went up and said hi and we started talking a little bit and realized we had a mutual interest in beer and craft beer and everything. And it was, it was cool. That as part of the sensory evaluation class, If you were a homebrewer, they said bring your beer and we'll taste it. And I had brought some of my beers and we tasted them and people liked them. Greg really liked them. Ironically, it was, you know, since we were such an anti-fruit beer brewery in the beginning, it was a peach ale that I had made, ‘cause I was actually, one of my side jobs when I was a musician, was working for a farmer who came down for the Santa Monica farmer's market and I would sell his stone fruits, peaches and stuff. And so I got some awesome peaches and I decided to make a beer out of it. So funny. Downie: So leading the way with fruit beer. Wagner: Yup. Yup. And so yeah, I think, you know, that's sort of me running into him there and drinking some beers together and stuff. You know, here this guy was a successful entrepreneur, and I was interested in getting into beer and we, you know, we started talking about maybe we should start our own brewery. I think we were both back in LA and we, you know, we did some home brews together and just kinda hung out together and started talking about things and seeing if we could see a way to do, you know, to start our brewery. So. Downie: Yeah. So Davis I think was in ‘94, ’93? Wagner: ’93 I think. I'm gonna say ‘93. Downie: I've got Greg’s textbooks from that. Wagner: Well we went back for some additional classes too. That might've been in ‘94, but I think that initial one was before that. Downie: So it really considering that Stone itself opened up in mid-year 1996... Wagner: Yeah. Downie: You worked on a pretty fast track to get Stone up and going. It seems like compared to what I'm seeing for some breweries now. Wagner: Yeah. I don't know. It felt like a pretty deliberate track to me ‘cause I actually, you know, in, in between there, I moved up to, had an opportunity to house sit for my brother and his soon to be wife up in Portland because they were taking the better part of a year off as a sabbatical. They both worked for Intel. They needed somebody to house sit for them. And so my wife Laura and I volunteered to go up and do that. And it, part of my thinking was, well, I'll find a job at a brewery up there, you know, get some hands-on experience and really make sure I, I enjoy the work and, you know, am as passionate about the work as I think I would be, you know. Yeah, so I think that was Spring of ‘94 that we moved up there and landed a job brewing for Pyramid shortly thereafter. Up in Kalama, Washington, you know, 30-minute commute North of Portland. And yeah, started, I mean I think I had two weeks of training and then they handed me the keys for the midnight night shift, the lone brewer in this pretty sizable plant at that point I was like, “Wow, this is happening pretty fast.’ But uh, Downie: How big was Pyramid? How many barrels do you remember? Wagner: I think they did about 90,000 barrels when I was there in ‘90. I was there through fall of ‘95, I guess. So, a little over a year, year and a half of it. It was great experience and I really loved, loved the work. You know, just the hands on of brewing and being part of a brewery like that. I had a lot of great mentors that I was able to learn a lot from . It was everything I had hoped it would be. In fact, I enjoyed it so much. I was happy to just keep working there. And eventually Greg got impatient like, ’Are we gonna do this or what?’ But I was like, ‘I don't know, I've enjoyed living in Portland.’ Downie: Yeah, it’s beautiful up there. Wagner: I’m enjoying working for a brewery, but you know, I realized ‘Yeah if we're going to do this, we need to do it.’ So, you know, so in some ways to me that seems like a longer timeline because I actually, you know, took the time to go get some hands-on experience and do that rather than just, ah, you know (inaudible). Downie: That was a very good deliberate move though to make sure that, you know, it wasn't just the activity of brewing but you could actually face the day-to-day work. Wagner: Yeah. Yup and it really helped me in, you know, shopping for our original equipment and putting the brewery together and how we wanted to do things and Pyramid had a pretty good focus on quality of their beer. And, you know, so that became one of our things at Stone too, was to, to create really consistent beers and beers that had decent shelf life. You know, the people would have the same experience every time they tried one. And that, that ended up being crucial for us because, you know, opening in 1996, that was kinda the beginning of the first shakeout in craft beer where a lot of people had rushed in who maybe didn't have brewing expertise and were looking to be quick buck and stuff. And there was a lot of issues with, you know, bad beer out there that wasn't consistent or had off flavors or different things. And so you know, I think that the time I spent at Pyramid really benefited us. The ability to pull off quality and consistency. So, because you know, when we first opened Stone and go out to try to sell our beer, I mean, Greg was the, you know, he was our lone salesman at the time. That's what I mean, he'd go out or it was all these, a lot of people who didn't want to take craft beer, they said, ‘No, we've done it’s a fad. You know , it's like the beer never tasted the same twice or you couldn't deliver it when we needed it. So we're not doing that anymore, you know?’ So that's what we were up against when we started the company. It was possibly the worst possible time to start it. Downie: Well, you sink or swim. Wagner: Yep, exactly. Downie: And so since you've been talking about your education, did you do any other education after opening Stone or were you just so busy with running Stone? Wagner: You know, before we had opened Stone, Greg and I would go to the craft brewers conference, the national conference, the annual conference. So, we would go to that every year. And as part of that, you know, obviously there there's a trade show, but they also do a lot of educational seminars and things like that. So, continued to take advantage of that. Even in the early days we would go to that and helped us keep up with what was happening in, you know, brewing techniques and science and equipment and stuff. Um, I'm trying to remember. I think I might have taken some other classes, but I think they might've been more finance- and accounting-focused because I had sort of assumed that hat in the brewery too, you know. It was interesting the dynamics when you start, at first I felt like all the pressure was on me, you know, to order the brewery equipment, get it installed, get it, get it working, get the beer to where I want it, you know, get the beer brewed and then all of a sudden all the pressure shifts to Greg. Right. It's like, ‘Well, here's all these kegs. You better go sell it.’ (Wagner and Downie laugh.) And to his credit, you know, he did it. But at that time, you know, maybe I was only brewing once a week or something. So, I took on the task of, you know, the invoices are coming in and collecting payments and paying our vendors and doing all that and just getting into the, you know, the accounting, finance end of it. And uh, never had really had experience doing that. But I kind of learned by doing and I realized I enjoyed being familiar with the numbers and understanding what was happening to the company, financially. So I really, you know, kind of had a… Downie: Somebody who got to watch those numbers. Wagner: Yes. Yup. It was important. Downie: So that does kind of answer down here in the Stone section. I did ask about your role in Stone's early years besides brewing. And of course, I have photographs from Greg's collection of all of you doing stuff. You know, building and you know, moving equipment and all that sort of thing. Wagner: Yeah. ‘Cause you know Greg had construction experience from building his rehearsal studio and that sort of stuff. So, he, he was very savvy with contractors and how to do that kind of stuff. So I focused more on, you know, figuring out the right brewery equipment for us and finding the best deal on that and getting it shipped. And he did a lot of the, you know, the construction stuff that we needed at the brewery, the trench drains, the different things. Downie: Was there ever a discussion between you and Greg about how the jobs were going to fall out or you just said, Greg, you've got the MBA, you've got , you know, and you just kind of naturally took that on and like you say, you were brewing once a week, so somebody had to deal with the invoicing, and all of the rest. Wagner: You know, there was always more than, you know, there was always too much to do. So it was, it was very much a chip in where you could ever, you could help type of situation, you know, whether it was deliver your keg to a customer who had run out over the weekend or something. You know, we both did a lot of that. You know, I would go out and do sales calls and things too, you know, to, to try to expand our, our impact. Yeah, it's very much a, you do whatever it takes type of thing. Downie: And Pizza Port was the first, in Solana Beach, was the first location to take a keg? Wagner: Yep. Yep. Downie: ‘Cause I've seen the plaque down there. Wagner: Yep. Yep. Greg, he tells a good story about that too. It gave us a very unrealistic view of the distribution business because they came and picked up the first keg ‘cause they wanted to be the first. We are like, ‘Oh this is easy. Everybody just comes to you and gets it.’ Right. Downie: Yeah. There you go. Wagner: That might've been the last time anybody did that. Downie: Other than maybe somebody picked up a keg for their own personal party, you know? Wagner: Yeah. Downie: You know you learn as you go along because that's really, there were so few models for a craft brewery, you know, a smaller brewery. You know, you can't take the models that work for AB (Anheuser Busch) or anybody else and apply them to you. It just doesn't work. Okay. So, um, we'll jump back up the list here. How, how, and why the name Stone Brewing. Oh good. You're laughing. Wagner: You can see the list of the names from the wheat beer that we did. We, we came up with a lot of names and we disagreed quite a bit about names, you know, I think, which was good. It kind of helped us make sure that we came up with something that we both thought was good and that usually it was better than something that only one of us thought was good. So , we went through a lot of lists of names and a lot of rejection of names that that didn't work for us. And, you know, I mean we came up on a deadline, right? We had called our corporation Koochenvagners kind of a play out our two names, but we're coming up to a deadline to, you know, we wanted to release a beer and we didn't have a name yet. And so we're feeling the pressure of that. And I think Greg came in with the name Stone one day. I think he might've had umlauts over it or something like that. (Laughs.) But, but there was something about it that I liked that it was just a simple and kind of classic and, not tied geographically to any place, you know, because we weren't sure we wanted that. We didn't, you know, there already was a San Diego Brewing Company, there already was a San Marcos Brewing Company. We kind of wanted to do something different. So, and I think also it stimulated a lot of kind of creative marketing ideas too. You know, the, you know, that as we thought of things that were made of stone and that the gargoyle kind of came out of that and our, you know, original tap handles were beach stones that we'd collect at the beach, which is probably illegal now, but we don't do it anymore. Yeah. It's funny because one of the (laughs) Downie: Probably the statute of limitations is out by now. Wagner: We started draft only, so we didn't have bottles, but one of the, the ideas that I came up with, you know, as we were thinking of slogans and stuff was, well Greg, our first one was “Welcome to the Stone Age”, you know, which is Greg's, which is kind of clever. I like that one. But I came up with one “Leave no stone unturned”, which we never actually used that. But now it's like a, you know we’re in a lawsuit with Keystone (MillerCoors) about them shortening their name to Stone. Now, they use that actually, which is funny. Downie: Oh, okay. Wagner: (Laughs.) A little side humor here. Downie: You know, that's an old, old, old phrase, you know, whoever decides to trademark gets it. And so you kind of said how the gargoyle because it's made of stone, became the representation. And also there's certainly text on the early bottles explaining, you know, the gargoyle protecting from bad taste and sort of… Wagner: I think we kinda felt like we needed to explain it ‘cause people like thought that it was the devil or something. I don't know what gargoyles actually do. You know, they protect them in their own churches. They protect against evil spirits. And so, you know, Greg and his creative mind kind of turned it into this protecting our beer from the evil spirits of cheap adjuncts and materials. Downie: That's a very good way explain it. Wagner: Yeah. Downie: And to eradicate the devil situation. Um, so, and you kind of talked about dealing with distribution issues. What about dealing with suppliers? I mean , since you were a smaller brewery again. Yeah. And was there much locally available or did you have to go far afield? Wagner: We had to go pretty far afield for, you know, no matter what it was brewing equipment, you know, raw materials. Obviously hops mostly came from, you know, Washington and Oregon. Malted barley came from, you know, Canada or the upper plains States in the US and, uh, even our water came from Colorado probably. (Laughter) Right. Yeah. You know, there were, there were people locally who could do good tradeswork and stuff. You know, we had, we had wonderful, uh, stainless steel welders and plumbers and you know, just great contractors and people to work with here locally in San Diego. But… Downie: But the actual supplies were another story… Wagner: Yep. That comes from the places that, you know, that's, that's tricky when you're not ordering a lot and you're trying to, you know, protect cashflow and things that you could, you know, you can find yourself short sometimes and critical moments. But you know, that's one of the, what are the cool things about craft beer that we found out very early on is that people are very supportive. And fellow brewers, you know, obviously Pizza Port, you know, Gina and Vince (Marsaglia). I mean they had their own brewery and their own place and still they wanted to serve our beer, you know, help us out and just, just passionate about good craft beer. So that's willingness to help and to, you know, sell somebody a bag of malt if they come up short or some hops or things like that. It still carries on to this day, which is pretty incredible. A lot of businesses like that. Downie: Well, I mean, I have the articles, copy of the articles of incorporation for the San Diego Brewers Guild from 1996 with Greg’s signature on it. And so that shows that, you know, early on there was this established environment of work together and cooperate or it's not going to happen, which I think was just really essential to the success of San Diego craft brewing. Wagner: Definitely. Downie: ‘Cause I get, I get that question from people elsewhere. It's like, ‘Well, why San Diego?’ And it's like, well I know that they've always collaborated with each other. When you don't fight with each other, you can spend your energy doing better things, hopefully surviving, you know. And so, how has your role changed over the years? You know, I mean early on you were, you know, were of course doing the brewing, but when I talked to you one time I asked when was the last time you brewed and you just kind of went, ‘I don’t know.’ Wagner: I am actually brewing tomorrow. Downie: Oh good! Good for you. Wagner: Probably ‘cause you asked me that. I'm like, gosh, it's been too long. Downie: You have to get back to your roots once in a while. Wagner: Yeah, definitely. Um, so let's see. How has my role changed? Yeah, I mean like in the, you know, in the early years, besides doing , I mean for the first six months or so, I did all the production work, you know, the brewing, the filtering, the packaging, everything, and then, you know, gradually was able to get some part time help and, you know, because I ended up managing the distribution part of things, you know, just the, the logistics and the managing the drivers and the warehouse. You know, as we started to add people. At first I think we just had drivers pull the beer and load their own truck and um, you know, manage the flow of invoicing and payments, and then accounts receivable, accounts payable, Human Resources. And to start doing that, you know, I was doing payroll and everything. So kind of doing all the operations and back office stuff. While Greg was out selling and he, you know, continued to create marketing momentum for us with all of his great ideas and things. Downie: So at what point did you formalize the HR and like release doing the payroll and things like that? Wagner: Yeah, I mean, we didn't, yeah, we probably waited too long to get some professional HR help. Yeah, at one point, I promoted my assistant, I had a kind of an assistant who was, you know, sort of an office manager type person to doing payroll and of some of the basic HR filings and stuff like that. But, yeah, I'm trying to remember how that transitioned exactly. But gradually we, we realized, you know, that it's a, it's something that needs to be done by the book and you know, somebody needs to pay attention to it very carefully. And so, we started hiring professional folks to do that. Downie: There are so many facets besides the brewing that, you know, really have legal ramifications if nothing else. And then, you know, employee climate. Wagner: Yup. Downie: Do you want to make sure you're doing things right and your employees are happy? Wagner: Yeah, absolutely. Wagner: So, yeah. Um, yeah, that's, that's one area that's gotten a lot more complex and difficult in the 22 years that we've been in business too. You know, plus as your company grows there, you know, a lot more rules and laws come into play. Right. When you're smaller kind of, you know, when you're under 10 people, it's pretty simple. When you're between 10 and 50, it gets more complex once you’re over 50 that it's, you know, you get the whole rule book thrown it. It was a lot to keep track of and lots to make sure you're doing right. Downie: Well, something I've gotten a sense of from just the photographs I was going through to scan for the documentary (The Beer Jesus from America), it seemed like there were a lot of events for employees. You know, either charity events like Dye Your Head Red. Um, there was also something where people had green hair at one point? Wagner: Well, we were doing it, I don't know if we did it every year, but at one point we're doing it every other year and we would change the color each time we did it. So, it would kind of rotate between blue, red, or green. Downie: Okay. I haven't seen any blue hair photographs, but there's a very distinct one where Lee Chase was walking around and obviously they had had to bleach his hair white in order to dye it green and it was up in what I call ‘the Smurf comb up’, you know, and it's like, wow, that's, that's really throwing himself into the green hair thing. But it seemed like it was something that the employees could get into and have some fun. But you also had a charity element. So, did Stone have a charity element from the beginning? Wagner: Uh, from our, yeah, I mean, because, you know, we, we realized early on, it's one of the best ways to get your brewery name out there is that, you know, California law allows brewers to donate beer to charities for their events. And so , um, you know, that became our grassroots marketing. We didn't have money to spend on marketing. You know, we're not buying advertising or anything. We still don't do that. But it was a low-cost way to get out there and tell our story, you know. So, we would, um, donate beer to these events and then we'd go and set up a booth and you know, pour the beer and tell people about us. And, uh, you know, it was just word of mouth that, you know, it's great, ‘cause people get sample the beer and taste and decide if they like it, but also they see you're out supporting the community in supporting nonprofits and things. So it was really an effective way to, to market and grow our company. And it's, you know, just sort of something Greg and I like to do anyways, you know, be involved in. Downie: Yeah. And it certainly has established a model where you see a lot of that going on now with even the very tiny, tiny craft breweries, which is wonderful. You know, charities need all the help they can get. Wagner: So that was the sort of the turning point was, I guess it was our second anniversary ‘cause our first anniversary we just had it within the brewery, you know, our licensed operations area. ‘Cause it was, you know, pretty small and we didn't charge admission or anything. And, but then the second year we, you know, we wanted to make it bigger and have more people and so to do, in order to do that you have to partner with a charity. They have to pull a special one-day license to allow you to, we wanted to take over a little bit in the parking lot to have our anniversary. And so that's kind of what started it. You know, we went to the, to the mayor I think in San Marcos and said, you know, we need a charity partner that we can partner with to do this anniversary party that we want to do. They said, ‘You know, Boys and Girls Club San Marcos is best organization in town. So why don’t you talk to them?’ That's, you know, they ended up getting me on the Board of Directors for 10 years there. A couple, couple terms as chair of the board and we continue to support them because it's a, you know, great organization that's doing wonderful work for them, the youth of San Marcos. Downie: So there are so many, how do you spread yourself and how do you choose between all of these very deserving causes? Wagner: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does get difficult. And so we're kind of in the mode now or, I mean the good news is that there's a lot more brewers in town too. So, it's like if we say we, you know, we're already supporting the maximum number of organizations we can right now. We can't take on another one, but here's some other great local brewers that would likely be happy to support them. Downie: Again, part of that collaboration and directing people, you know, whenever I worked with somebody and I can't give them what they need in the way of research help, I try to get them somewhere where they can. I mean that's just, I think that's just good humanity if nothing else. So excellent. Wagner: But that was kind of where it turned from, you know, us supporting the nonprofits by donating beer to them, to us realizing, you know, it's our anniversary, but it became more popular and we partnered with a charity that we could charge admission and raise this money and then raise our own funds to give to the, the nonprofits that's become, you know, really the way we create most of the funding that we do for local non-profits. Downie: I’m a member of Society of Barley Engineers they’re very tolerant of my dumb questions about brewing and they're always real pleased to be involved with, you know, homebrewing the sodas that you know are good for the designated driver. Wagner: They always do some really crazy stuff too. It fits in well. Downie: With the 21st Anniversary, I was walking around and I saw a young, obviously quite pregnant young woman and her three friends were all drinking. So obviously she was the designated driver and I said, ‘Do you realize that there is non-alcoholic soda here that you can have?’ ‘Cause she wasn't drinking. It's like kind of, you need to stay hydrated. She was like, ‘Oh great!’ You know, so she was able to get something. Wagner: They always have some amazing ones too. I always try them when I’m there. They're just… Downie: Yeah, they pride themselves on, you know, coming up with something new and different. And a couple of the Barley Engineers now have collaborated with Stone on beers. Chris Banker with Xocovesa and Corey Magers with Mojay. I don't know of any others, but then I haven't really surveyed the home brewing clubs to see who else has done this. Wagner: I’m not sure who else from the Society of Barley Engineers. Downie: It's on my list of, you know, further research. Wagner: There's definitely some other, there's some folks from QUAFF (Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity). I think some other ones too, that uh, won the homebrewers contest that we do. So yeah. Downie: When did you start the homebrewers contest, do you remember? Wagner: Gosh, that's a good question. Downie: I know it's hard to ask for dates. Wagner: Well, it wasn't until we had the bistro (located in Escondido) open ‘cause we would do it at the bistro. So, it was either 2007 probably would have been the earliest . But yeah, it certainly wasn't long after that, I can look back at the beers probably and find out when we released the first beer, which is probably the Ken Schmidt, the coconut porter. Downie: I think somebody who said… Wagner: ‘Maui Ken’ Schmidt. So, the original that I can find that out. Downie: Yeah. I have people ask me things like that. You know, when was the first this, when was the first that I'm like… Wagner: It’s not in here is it (referring to Stone timeline from their website)? Downie: I don't remember how far. I think that ends about 2006 on most of its information. Wagner: So the AleSmith/Mikkeller/Stone (collaboration beer)/ Let's see. We did some with brewers that says the Ken Schmidt one was 2009. Downie: Okay. Wagner: That was the winner of the Stone Age. That might've been the first one. Downie: Okay. Oh, of course they'll remember. Wagner: ‘Cause then we did the 2010 was with Kelsey McNair, I think he was in QUAFF. Right. And he started North Park. Downie: Yeah. He would've been in QUAFF. Wagner: North Park Beer Company that says. Yeah. Downie: Okay. I see. Good thing I brought that list. So, when you started Stone, you started with the IPA? Wagner: Well, Stone Pale Ale. Downie: Stone Pale Ale, okay. Downie: And then where did Arrogant Bastard fall in, into your first beers? Wagner: So the Stone Pale Ale was the first beer, released in July of ‘96 and then our second beer was, we did a, a seasonal called Winter Stone that I think was probably released in November of that year. And then we ended up keeping it around ‘cause we had a few customers who really liked it on draft. And so we changed the name to Stone Smoked Porter and kept brewing it. So that was our second beer. Downie: Stone Smoked Porter ‘cause I've seen those bottles and I think I've seen a Winter Stone. Wagner: Yeah. And now I'm talking about the year-round beers. So there may have been a couple of other ones in there. But then the Stone IPA was released on our first anniversary, so July of ‘97. So that was our third full time beer. And then I don't think Arrogant Bastard came out until 1998, till November of ‘98 I believe. We had the other year-round beers because we started doing some bottling then. Yeah. Just keeping up with what we had. Downie: So it was late ‘98 when you started bottling? Wagner: (paper rustling) I believe so. Okay. I'll confirm that . I think it's pretty sure it's (November of ’98). Downie: Well since when I asked you about that date code on the bottles and you made the very good point that that was probably when the bottles were printed, not when they were filled. I was like, ‘Oh yeah, that would make perfectly good sense.’ Okay. Now I don't even have to worry about the dates on the bottle anymore because that can be from any time really. That was, there went, a myth ‘cause I saw Chris Cochran, just after that and I said, well Chris, because Chris and Greg and both said, we think this is when the bottles were when beers were brewed. I said, well, Steve says, because you bought bottles and they sat in the warehouse, he goes, Oh, okay. So you know, busting that mythology there, which brings me to… Wagner: Yeah we used to put the date on the case boxes at first. You know, we didn't have the technology to put it actually on the bottle. It was, we were doing these little (inaudible) bottling machines. Downie: Yeah, yeah. You're, you're running lean and mean. You've got to get it out there. Yeah. But that does bring me to another mythology which, how Arrogant Bastard was born. You know, the higher hopped beer. I have heard from people who of course want to speak with some authority, but you would be the authority, that you accidentally double hopped a batch of beer. Wagner: I did. That is absolutely true. I think everybody agrees on that. You know, we were working out of Greg's condo in Solana Beach to, you know, start the business basically. And I was doing a lot of research on equipment and then I was also doing some pilot batches to, you know, work on some, some recipes for some of the beers. And we had, I had my own kind of homebrew equipment, then we invested in a nicer system that a little bit more capacity, I think it was like a 10-gallon system or something like that. It's, so it was one of the first brews I was doing on that system. And so all my calculations changed on volume bitterness units and all that stuff. I screwed up the first calculation and I way over hopped this beer. (Laughs) Downie: But then you didn't release the results of this mistake until a couple of years after being established. Wagner: We have differing opinions, Greg and I recall it differently because we definitely know I screwed it up. The question was, I think I thought I realized it right at the time and I just wanted to dump the batch, you know, Greg said, to my memory Greg said, ‘No, let's, you know, you've already made it. We might as well let it ferment and then we’ll bottle it. And then Greg's memory of it is that I didn't realize it until we tasted the bottles and then it's like, ‘Ah, geez, I messed this one up.’ and Greg is ‘This is the best beer I've ever had.’ Downie: Okay. Well it's nice to actually be able to say definitively that part that, that mythology is true. And so what is your role in developing new beers now? Wagner: You know what, I don't have a huge role other than, you know, tasting the new stuff that we come up with. Maybe making some comments here and there if there's things that I don't think are quite, quite what we're looking for, but, we have a super creative team and I'm happy to enjoy the fruits of their labors. We've got an innovation team with three guys, Chris Ketchum and Jeremy Moynier and Steve Gonzalez. They're just making unbelievable beers. It used to be such pressure for me to come up with a new beer as well, you know, doing all this other work in my day job and all this stuff. It's kind of nice when we got to that point where other people can contribute. You know, Lee Chase was the first who helped out with that. And then Mitch Steele came on board. You really embrace that, which is nice for me because… Downie: Speaking of Mitch (Steele) and Lee (Chase), did they start as volunteers or did they start as paid employees? Wagner: Yeah, I don't think we had volunteers that I recall. Lee started part time ‘cause he was, you know, he had been working at Brewers Union down in San Diego, the brew-your-own place and then I think he was working at White Labs too, maybe even doing some stuff for Pizza Port. But yeah, we hired him part time to help me with the brewing and kegging stuff ‘cause I just couldn't keep up with everything. Then eventually we got to the point where we're able to make him full time. Downie: And then he went out on his own. Wagner: Great job of growing with us for a long time. He was with us for 10 years or something. Super creative guy. Yeah, doing great on his own. Downie: Yeah. And he's a, he's another hard person to reach. But I am persistent. If nothing else, it does pay off eventually. What happened to your early brewing equipment? Wagner: Uh, my earliest brewing equipment, I actually have it. Yeah, do you want it? my musician friend, The guy Doug Freeman, still mine who invited me to homebrew with we, uh, I have that equipment actually. Downie: Yeah. If it's not as big as this (holds arms out indicating the current brewhouse), Wagner: it’s a 5 gallon. Downie: I would love to have it. That would be wonderful. Oh, I would love to have it because that's one thing I don't have is you know, equipment because that's kind of a space factor. But the, where it all started very first time, that would be…Oh, that would be so incredible, that that would just be so much fun. Wagner: Alright, it would make my wife very happy. Downie: And I'm sure, yeah. That's what I get from a number of the wives of brewers. It's like, ‘Oh, you'll only take that much?’ Oh, I can only take so much and I don't want anything that is not San Diego related. I'm sorry ‘cause I have women going, ‘He's got a hundred growlers and they're from all over the country.’ The boss has told me to stop collecting growlers. I’ve got about 45 so far. But the artwork on them is so incredible, you know, I mean I think just everything that you do to represent yourself says so much. Wagner: Yeah. Downie: It's like Karl Strauss and Ballast Point and they've changed their logos. They've changed their stories a little bit. So yeah, I just, I just love to collect real stuff because then people get really excited when they see, you know, a piece of paper they don't get too excited about, but when they see the real thing, they just get really excited and happy. Um, so, just if you care to talk about this, a couple of lows and highs in the progression of Stone, things that have happened that… Wagner: Let's see, I mean, you know, some of the highs were, let's see, in the early days, that'd be just some big wins on getting our beer to some places that, you know. I remember one of them, because one of the reasons I used to come down here was because my brothers were in school at UCSD and I was, I was already out of college and I was living in Los Angeles, but I'd come down and visit them and we'd go to the Del Mar racetrack and stuff. You know, it was just fun thing to do on the weekends and you know, so when we first got Stone Pale Ale on tap at the Del Mar racetrack, I thought, ‘Wow, it doesn't get any better than this.’ Yes, they're just little things. but just those little incremental things, sometimes... Downie: Well, they may feel a little but, that was really a big thing getting, getting out there with so many different people are going to be tasting your beer. That's huge. Wagner: So, yeah, that's what I remember I mean, you know, the first time that we'd started shipping our beer to another state, to Arizona. That's pretty big deal. Downie: Yeah. Especially Arizona was early. I mean, they passed Prohibition four or five years before the nation did. Yeah. That they were one of the reasons San Diego Brewing failed, or Mission Brewing, failed pre-prohibition because Mission was making Hopski which was a near beer and Arizona wouldn't even allow that in the state. And that's what actually caused Mission to shutter. Oh, I've got all kinds of weird little historical trivia. Wagner: Yeah. Let's see. The low points. I don't know. The, you know, the losing good people is always tough, you know? Um, what do you feel like you've let them down or something and not been able to provide the career path or the compensation they need or whatever it is. You know, sometimes that hits you hard when it's somebody who, really, really valuable member of the team that moves on from whatever is, it could be personal reasons, can be professional reasons. Um, those were some low points. You know, obviously Greg talks about when we got turned down by the distributor, you know? Yeah, yeah. That was a pretty big setback. Yeah. Downie: That, that would be terrifying. Wagner: Yeah. I dunno for me though, it was just, it just made me mad and it's like, alright, let me just, we're going to beat these guys at their own game. That we’re going to take action in those situations. But yeah, you know, it's, you don't really know how long you have to make a success of it, you know, and how long can the negative cashflow go on before decides just not gonna make it, you know, and we were close to that point. So it was definitely an inflection point. Downie: Do you have a year that you realize you had gone into the black? Wagner: I think it was about, I think it was probably ‘99 was probably our first profitable year. I can look back and I might still have some of those. Downie: Yeah, well that's not, that's not because Peter (Zien) at AleSmith says it was six, six years or so before he actually… Wagner: I think it was the first full year with Arrogant Bastard. ‘Cause I think that kind of took off pretty quickly for us. It really changed things around. You know, because we had just been trying to grow in San Diego and you know, do it the hard way. Right. Just hand to hand. So, it was a slow road, but that kind of gave a us a big shot in the arm. Downie: Well, a name like that, you know, I mean if nothing else, people are gonna buy it just because of the name. Yeah. Okay. Well then, I know we've talked about this before, but for the record, if Stone hadn't worked out, you know, I mean you did have a time where you came close, I'm sure. What would have been your plan B? Wagner: Yeah, I think the plan B, I mean I definitely wanted to stay involved in craft beer, you know, enjoyed brewing and a lot of aspects for it. So, you know, I thought about that since we talked a little bit last time. I think it probably would have been moving back up to Portland because both of my brothers and their families lived up there. Uh, looking for a job with a brewery up there. Really enjoyed living up there too. Downie: Yeah. Well I liked your, your response last time you said, ‘I didn't think about it.’ It wasn’t not going to happen. Wagner: I thought about it since you said like ‘What would we have done?’ Probably, you know… Downie: So, well it seems like you were so busy you didn't have time to think about what that plan B would be. Wagner: It’s really true, I think we're so focused on just a… Downie: Yeah, if you don't admit that there could be failure, you know, you haven't left yourself anywhere, but to go, but keep going, I guess. Wagner: I feel like we just put our heads down and just kept working with it. Downie: You obviously, you obviously did, I mean some of the photos from the buildout on Mata Way. I mean, obviously you're just, you're asleep in your chair. You just kept going until you couldn't go anymore. But you know that that hard work has paid off here 22 years later, 23 years later. So do you have any words of wisdom for future brewers? Wagner: Wow. Yeah, you know I used to say all those things like ‘chase your dreams’ and ‘if it's your passion’ stuff but the way the industry is now, I'm not sure. (Laughs) I'm not sure the best advice to give somebody, but, yeah, I mean, if you're, I would say if it's, if you're willing to commit everything to it and work harder than you've ever worked and you know, and you should only do that because you really love it. Then, yeah. I mean it's, it's great to do something that you love. You know, I think, I think you, you know, you have to have realistic financial expectations these days. You know, people aren’t going to grow into a $1 billion company probably at this point, you know, but, uh, but if you are passionate about it and you can find a lifestyle that works for you with the, you know, with that sort of employment or a job, I think it's, there's something to be said for it. Downie: Yeah. And Stone has certainly given rise to a lot of other brewers who have gained experience here and then gone out and been successful. Wagner: So it's not just us, it's the other brewers that had been around for a while too. Downie: Yeah. I tried to develop a genealogy, kind of you know, who had worked where with who and I gave up. It was such an inner tangled, shifting, people popping back and forth. I said, no, somebody else can do that. I'll just track the breweries because they're a fixed space and I can deal with it. Wagner: That, um, that would be a very complicated… Downie: What was the, I'm sure you and Greg have probably talked about where does Stone go from here, you know, as far as both expansion and what, when you both say ‘we want to step back, we want to retire’. Or whatever. Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's something we're, we're, you know, we're actively trying to figure out every day pretty much. It's how can we leave the company independent and you know, still a going enterprise, you know, when we're not involved anymore, can't be involved anymore. So that's still our goal. You know, we want to leave a company that has the ability to go its own way and not be told what to do. Uh, you know, be run by the people who work here. Downie: And hopefully hold to your founding principles of, you know, the quality, consistency... Wagner: Yeah. Downie: No paid advertising, you know, just good, good culture for people to work at and, and, and all of those. I mean, it seems like you've developed a very good, strong core of principles that have really served Stone well. Wagner: Yup. Downie: Hopefully they will remain. Wagner: Yeah. You know, we're, we're trying to figure that out. It doesn't seem like it'll be a family business at this point. You know, my sons are still a little young, not even sure if that something they'd be interested in. You know, Greg doesn't have any kids or anything, so it's not, it's not going to be like a family business that's passed on generation to generation probably. So, yeah. Downie: Well, have your children ever come in and like work for the summer helping out? Wagner: My youngest son was a host at the restaurant this summer. Downie: Okay. I'm never sure, I'm never sure if that's really a good insight into the world of, you know, the food and beverage business. Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. People are not always that pleasant. It was good for him because he needed to come out socially a little bit. So, you know, you're having to deal with strangers and be nice to them and make them happy. That's a good thing. Downie: Yeah, that's, it certainly it makes you appreciate what service staff go through. Wagner: Yup. Downie: If you work a little bit of it yourself, it's a very different world for them on the other side. And are there any styles of beer you have not tried? You know , I mean, it seems like there was a real explosion of beer styles for a while. Now, you know, the Brut IPA is the most recent thing I've heard of, but are there other styles that you have heard of that you haven't tried or other styles that you see Stone maybe experimenting with or at least investigating? Wagner: Uh, let's see. I'm sure there's styles that I haven't tried, but they're, they're probably more the historical, obscure type ones that, you know, maybe nobody’s brewing anymore or has tried to brew in a long time. Downie: They're not being made for a reason. Wagner: That’s right, most of them, most of them are not accepted styles. That'd be both, you know, between being a judge at GABF probably judged all the categories, the hundred or whatever there are, including the malt liquor category. Sometimes you have to pay your price. I mean, as far as places we’re looking or, I mean, you know, one of the nice things is having a brewery in Berlin now that sort of opened up a whole new range of things we can do there, you know, as it relates to more traditional styles, more traditional European styles and things. So, it's kinda fun to experiment with those, you know, doing the Berlinerweisse and doing some different Pilsners and lagers and things like that. So, yeah, I dunno, there's nothing we'd rule out, you know, I mean, there's such a lot of, uh, innovation going on with hop varieties and stuff that's really exciting to us. So, obviously we're doing a lot of different IPAs using those, you know, testing new hop varieties for the growers and things. Uh, let's see. Yeah, I don't know. Downie: Well, there's, there's still lots, still lots out there available to experiment. Wagner: You know, the ability to create new flavors and beers is pretty much limitless, I think. So we still want to be leading that charge for sure. Downie: But never giving up on your stable, the stable core beers. Wagner: Yeah. You still have to sell beer too. Downie: But somebody was bemoaning the oaken, the Oaked Arrogant Bastard and how much he missed that. And that was I just like ‘Never had it, can’t say.’ Wagner: The beautiful thing is we, you know, we reserve the right to bring back any beer at any time if we want to. Pretty much any of them we could brew again and we probably will at some point just for fun. Downie: Yeah. As long as those particular hops and all are still available. Wagner: Yeah. The Stone Pale Ale, although somebody told me, I was talking to Jeremy or somebody who told me something. They said that some of the growers are starting to plant the Ahtanum hop again. I guess, which is interesting. So I have to keep posted on that, we might have to do a throw back version of the Stone Pale Ale. Downie: What was old is new again. Wagner: Yeah, exactly. Downie: Well, is there anything that you would like to contribute to this history that we haven't touched on? Wagner: I'll have to think of that a little bit if I could get a second swing at it. But, no, I just think it's an amazing story of how San Diego ended up being this epicenter of it, you know, Capital of Craft™ and just, uh, you know, my best memories are just the wonderful people in this industry. You know, I consider many of them friends, just really good people who you know really pull together and help each other out. And I just thought that's something that we can keep going, you know, as it gets more competitive and things like that. ‘Cause it's, it's a pretty special place to be. Downie: Yes, exactly. Yeah I told Jen (Jennifer Fabbi, Dean of the CSUSM Library) , I said, if, if this was a combative industry, I would have come back to you and said, no, we do not want to get involved. Yeah. But I said, everybody has been collaborative and sharing and open and enthusiastic, which has really made developing the Brewchive® a joy because, I think there's, I don't know if the stars aligned right for San Diego or what, but it does seems like it's a really, there's something about this area and the people in it that has just created a very good place for the craft beer industry to be successful and be collaborative. Wagner: Yeah. And I think if there's one, one thing in particular that Stone did to make that happen was to take our beers outside of San Diego, you know, and probably the first ones to get any sort of serious distribution outside of Southern California to attract attention for, you know, Arrogant Bastard and then Stone IPA and some of those beers that, you know, I mean obviously there's a lot of tourism and military stuff for the word would spread about San Diego breweries, but we actually got the beer out there to the East Coast and other places where people, helped people realize, wow, there's something going on in San Diego. Downie: Yeah. And somebody sampling it here, they may not have any pull where when they go home to get the beer brought in. So yeah, you have to kind of push it to a receptive community. Wagner: You have to convince the distributor that you know that it will succeed or that there's people that would, Downie: And so now there Stone brewing, Stone has a distributorship. Um, I know Greg's got like the nut butter thing going on. (Wagner laughs) It seems like there's becoming a many-headed Hydra, not in a negative way. Wagner: That’s not a Stone thing (nut butter) though , that's, you know, he's got a couple other things he's involved in, you know, whether it's the, yeah, the nut butter or the wine thing, there are some other breweries and things. And I've got a little bit of that too with some of the brewers that I help out. But, yeah, I don't know. I think, you know, our three big pillars are obviously the brewery is the big one and continue to make beer that people want to buy and the challenges and the distribution. It's just a key strategic thing for us that allows us to control our brand and our sales in our home market. That's something that we'll always have that, you know, no matter how rough it gets out there and other parts of the country and stuff, we feel confident that we can, you know, always have strong sales here in Southern California. And then, uh, the hospitality is basically our marketing. You know, we don't invest a lot in advertising or those sort of traditional things for us. It's creating a good experience where people come to your place and you know, they leave and the next day they go to the store, they want to buy a six pack of Stone because they have these fond memories, you know. So far it’s worked. Will it continue to work? We’ll have to see. Downie: Well, sounds like it will. Well, I will end the interview here. I want to thank you so very much, Steve. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wagner, Steve. Interview October 24, 2018. Description An account of the resource Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24.mp3 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-24 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steve Wagner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Stone Brewing Company (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County University of California, Davis Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Evanston (Ill.) California -- Santa Cruz County -- Santa Cruz Los Angeles (Calif.) Portland (Or.) San Marcos (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en." target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Brewchive(r) Community history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4b980f381eb5f170b4d732a73f004a7d.pdf 2af1a32989492e0fe580e85a42ceffac Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wagner, Steve. Interview transcript, October 24. 2018. Description An account of the resource Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steve Wagner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-24 Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Stone Brewing Company (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County University of California, Davis Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Evanston (Ill.) California -- Santa Cruz County -- Santa Cruz Los Angeles (Calif). Portland (Or.) San Marcos (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p class="p2"><a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en." target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a></p> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_transcript Brewchive(r) Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lucy Wheeler Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Susan Cupaiuolo OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CupaiuoloSusan_WheelerLucy_2023-02-23_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Cupaiuolo, Susan. Interview February 23, 2023 SC027-24 0:41:03 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral histories collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Blueberries Cherimoya Orchards -- California -- Vista Tree crops Vista (Calif.) Susan Cupaiuolo Lucy Wheeler mp4 CupaiuoloSusan_WheelerLucy_2023-02-23_access.mp4 1:|13(1)|23(5)|31(7)|40(8)|47(3)|54(11)|61(1)|69(8)|77(9)|85(8)|95(3)|104(3)|111(7)|120(11)|130(14)|140(12)|148(9)|158(12)|166(1)|174(11)|184(6)|192(9)|204(13)|213(2)|222(12)|232(2)|240(9)|247(11)|255(12)|263(6)|271(8)|281(3)|289(5)|301(2)|313(2)|328(3)|336(10)|367(2)|387(7)|401(10)|415(6) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/7519142da692856f004bf07f963d4a93.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction about North County para-agriculture / Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo’s story The interview begins with an introduction to North County’s para-agriculture, which has been largely overlooked despite San Diego making up a large portion of the county’s agriculture. Susan Cupaiuolo discusses the life of her husband Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo, whom was called “Nino.” She explains that Nino grew up in Milan, Italy during World War II. Nino did not have a farming background. Instead, Nino worked in the field of international marketing and worked in the United States and Europe for forty years. She also explains that Nino loved growing a garden in the Orange County home that she shared with his first wife. Nino passed away in 2020 at the age of eighty-six years old. agriculture ; farming ; farms ; Independent farming ; Milan (Italy) ; Orange County (Calif.) ; para-agriculture 235 Marriage to Cupaiuolo/ Purchasing the farm Susan Cupaiuolo recounts the early days of her marriage to Nino Cupaiuolo, where they lived in Michigan before moving to Orange County, CA. She also recalls when Nino first introduced her to the avocado fields in Vista, CA that they would eventually turn into their cherimoya farm, The Primavera Orchard. agriculture ; Cherimoya ; farming ; farms ; Independent farming ; Michigan ; Orange County (Calif.) ; para-agriculture ; The Primavera Orchard ; Vista (Calif.) 456 Managing a farm/ Background on cherimoyas Susan Cupaiuolo discusses how she and Nino developed and managed a cherimoya farm. She explains that managing a farm is a long-term investment and that farmers may sometimes invest a lot of money, time, research, and other resources into their farm in order to see results. Cupaiuolo also discusses cherimoyas, their origins, and tips on growing and pollinating cherimoyas in the Southern Californian climate. Cupaiuolo had also brought a few cherimoyas to the interview, which she displays to the camera. Agriculture ; Cherimoya ; Ecuador ; Farming ; Farming techniques ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Peru ; Subtropical fruit ; Vista (Calif.) 850 Local resources Susan Cupaiuolo discusses local resources that she has found beneficial in her experience in farming. She recommends programs such as the University of California Cooperative Extension for soil analysis labs, as well as organizations such as the California Rare Fruit Growers, the California Cherimoya Association, and the Master Gardner Association for their workshops and other resources. She highlights the University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department and the South Coast Research and Extension Center for their agricultural research. Cupaiuolo also stresses the importance of the internet for making research on farming easier and more accessible to the general public. Agriculture ; California Rare Fruit Growers ; Cherimoya ; Farming ; Farming techniques ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Irvine (Calif.) ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Para-agriculture ; Research ; San Diego (Calif.) ; Soil analysis ; South Coast Research and Extension Center ; The California Cherimoya Association ; The County of San Diego Cooperative Extension ; The Farm and House Advisor ; The Master Gardener Association ; The United States Department of Agriculture ; The University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department ; University of California Cooperative Extension 1047 Selling produce and relationships with customers Susan Cupaiuolo discusses the business-side of managing a farm. Independently-owned grocery stores were an important avenue to individual farmers like the Cupaiuolos. She also discusses other avenues for where individual farmers can earn revenue and connect to the community, and recounts their experiences at farmers markets, free tasting events, and delivering to customers directly. She explains that their experience working with customers in these capacities helped build relationships and loyalty. Farm tours also facilitated socialization within their community. Agriculture ; Business ; Cherimoya ; Connecting with community ; Customers ; Farming ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Socialization in farming ; Vista (Calif.) 1494 Research and record-keeping in farming Susan Cupaiuolo discusses record-keeping strategies for farming. Specifically, record-keeping was beneficial to the Cupaiuolos for documenting their blueberry harvests. She explains that Nino collaborated with the Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program and the Farm Bureau and documented the blossoms, production, weight, soil, temperature, and varieties of blueberries. Cupaiuolo describes her role in blueberry record-keeping as financial and also explains the profit they made from selling the fruit. Agriculture ; Blueberries ; Farming ; Farming techniques ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Peru ; Record-keeping ; Research ; The Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program ; The Farm Bureau ; Vista (Calif.) 1835 Selling the farm/ Innovation in farming Susan Cupaiuolo briefly discusses the process of selling the farm to a new family after Nino’s death. She also discusses the importance of innovation in farming and explains that their farm was ahead of technological innovations in terms of the installation of an advanced irrigation system, solar panels, and a cell tower in the early 2000s. She recalls Nino’s artistic mind and speculates that his creativity allowed him to create these advanced designs for their farm. Agriculture ; Farming ; Farming irrigation ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Innovation in farming ; Irrigation ; Para-agriculture ; Technological innovations ; The Primavera Orchard ; Vista (Calif.) 2160 Advice to future farmers/ Agriculture economy Susan Cupaiuolo briefly offers advice to individuals who may be interested in starting their own farm. She suggests when buying a farm, it is imperative to have an understanding of the history of farming, the labor needed to sustain a farm, and the current economy and real-estate market. She further discusses the economy of individual farming, especially the competition farmers face against one another. Advice ; Agriculture ; Agriculture economy ; Competition in farming ; Economy ; Farming ; Farming advice ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Real estate market Moving image The Primavera Orchard was owned and operated by Giovanni and Susan Cupaiuolo from 1991 until Nino’s death in 2020 in Vista, California. It was a six acre peri-urban farm specializing in the growth, preparation, promotion and detailed hand-pollinated fruit from a variety of cherimoya trees. Cherimoya trees are a tropical fruit tree which will only grow in Southern California and are very expensive due to the complicated and dedicated care of the trees and cultivations. The Cupaiuolos later introduced blueberries to the area to provide this northern fruit into the local markets during the northern dormant season. Other fruits and vegetables were grown for personal use. Lucy Wheeler: Good afternoon. My name is Lucy Wheeler and it&#039 ; s February the 23rd, 2023. We&#039 ; re here to interview Susan-- Susan Cupaiuolo: Cupaiuolo. Wheeler: Kupaiyalo. Thank you. (Cupaiuolo chuckles) Uh, this is in behalf of the North County Oral History Initiative being put on by Cal State and San Marcos and the Museum of History here in San Marcos. The history of our North County--and just as a preliminary to your story, Susan--the county of San Diego is a very unique situation in that it&#039 ; s the ninth largest city in the United States, but it&#039 ; s in the community of the county. The fourth largest industry is agriculture, and most of that, or 70% of that, is soon to be in the North County. Part of that agricultural industry makes it a--well, it&#039 ; s the largest area in the United States with the most farms. Your story shows one of the areas of that agriculture which is kind of overlooked, and that is, in 2017 the county of San Diego estimated and actually counted that there were 5,000 small para-farmers, which is ten acres or less, and how they operate. And your story can bring us a wealth of information to that. So, with that beginning, tell us a little bit about yourself, your husband, where you were born, and what your interest in agriculture was. Cupaiuolo: (nods) I&#039 ; d be glad to give some background on this. My husband was Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo. He died in October 2020 at the height of the pandemic. Uh, he was 86 years old. He had been in declining health physically and cognitively, and I just wish that he were here to tell this adventure, but I&#039 ; ll do my best to--to share it. Um, I&#039 ; m going to call him &quot ; Nino.&quot ; He grew up in Milan, Italy during World War II. He had one brother. His father was from Naples and his mother from Sicily. Farming was not in his background, and, um, I&#039 ; m setting that up as making sure we don&#039 ; t have these assumptions about Italians who grew up on farms and have these big families, okay? Because that&#039 ; s--that&#039 ; s not the--the way it was for him. He had a master&#039 ; s degree in international marketing, and he spoke four languages. He sold industrial instrumentation in Europe and in the United States for over forty years. His first wife was an American. She worked at the U.S. Consulate in Milan. She was from Riverside, and they eventually settled with their three children in Orange County. For the first time, they had a yard! You know. Growing up in Milan, apartment, maybe you have a balcony with some pots. But the garden that he had, and they had chickens and the kids loved it. He learned that he loved growing things. Nino and I met and married in Michigan, where I am from. I was teaching and he was working there selling to the auto industry. He was transferred again in 1988 and we moved to Orange County. So, how did a schoolteacher from western Michigan and an Italian end up with a six-acre farm in north San Diego County? Well, I have to say at this point that it was driven by Nino, who was looking for a place to enjoy his retirement. I was happy teaching in Huntington Beach, but his territory stretched from San Diego to L.A. and beyond and he was on the road a lot. On Friday, one Friday, in 1991, he was returning from San Diego and he stopped off at a--a nursery in North Vista and, um, when he arrived home he said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ve found where we&#039 ; re going to retire.&quot ; So, the next day we started looking, and we found two acres on a subdivided avocado grove off of Gopher Canyon Road. And the journey began! At first, we commuted to the property on the weekends, and it--it was--it was perfect. It was hectic, but it was perfect. The Fuerte avocados there were in decline, and they were alive but failing, because after the introduction of the Hass variety, the--the cultivar, um, Fuerte fell out of favor. So, the 45-acre grove was subdivided into two-to-four-acre plots and put up for sale. So, what do you do with aging avocado trees? You stop watering them because avocados need 40 inches of rain a year. So, it didn&#039 ; t take long. When the adjacent four acres became available, we were able to buy them as well and that included a grove of already-producing persimmons--Hachiyas and Fuyus. So, that gave us a place to start. We moved to the farm in 1994, fixed up a small house on the property, and over the next year we removed all of the metal irrigation pipes (chuckles) and those dead avocado trees. By the way, avocado wood makes great firewood. We were selling it and giving it away for years! Okay, enough background. What does it take to have a small farm? Well, besides resources like land and equipment and irrigation, you need physical energy and strength (chuckles) and a lot of knowledge based on research. And that would include--before you even get started--the microclimate, the soil, the water sources. And then you have to choose, based on that information, what to grow! Well, Nino wanted fruit trees. Okay. As I was saying, he was the driver of all of this (chuckles), so I was just along for the ride. But, he, in particular, wanted cherimoyas, and that was because he had the year before, out of curiosity, bought a cherimoya fruit at a market and he loved it. He saved the seeds, and he planted them in pots. In fact, there was a cherimoya tree on the property, right by the front door! After much research--this was in 1993--early days of the internet, okay? But, we learned that cherimoyas would do really well in our area. Not from seed, however. (indicates &quot ; no&quot ; with her left pointer finger, and clears her throat.) It--it took a big commitment, that&#039 ; s for sure, because choosing to grow trees requires a longer-term outlook. Depending on how much time and money you have, you have to, um, invest, because the trees will take three to five years, or more, to produce, while row crops, like flowers or microgreens, for example, they can be seasonal. It was a big decision. It was a certain amount of trial and error--grafting, pollinating, planting. But, as it&#039 ; s important to small farms in choosing a unique or niche product, not supplied (again indicated &quot ; no&quot ; with her finger) by larger farmers, it worked out! Now, at the time, that really wasn&#039 ; t our focus, but it proved to be a huge advantage. A little bit about cherimoyas. They&#039 ; re a subtropical fruit, native to the mountain valleys of Peru and Ecuador. It can be large, often heart-shaped. (Reaches for a fruit and holds it up for the camera while the camera pans in.) I can show you one. (Lays it back down, and begins to rub her hands together). They have overlapping scales--that&#039 ; s what people call them, anyway. But, inside, it is white, and it has a custardy texture and it tastes like pineapple, banana, papaya, and in some varieties, even a pear! (Holds up a book with header reading &quot ; Gallery of Subtropical Plants&quot ; and contains a photo of the fruit and a cherimoya tree as well as textual information. Camera pans in on the page with the fruit image.) Southern California provides the--the best conditions in the United States for growing cherimoyas. The largest plantings are near Santa Barbara where most of that fruit is exported to Asia. The season is late winter to spring, so depending on the variety, that&#039 ; s from November, December to March and April. The tricky thing (rubs her hands together) about growing cherimoyas is the pollination. Each blossom is both male and female, but bees are too big to enter this fleshy flower. To get full-sized fruit, hand pollination with a paintbrush is the key. It&#039 ; s labor intensive in June, July, and August. It&#039 ; s not difficult, but it is time consuming. Now, (looks to her left, towards the fruit) part of farming has to be knowing the microclimate and (clears her throat) in general, in San Diego, people know the difference between the--the cool coastal and the warmer inland valleys. But (rubs hands) even with careful research on the--on the property, it&#039 ; s--it can throw you some--some confusing conditions, because, uh, there are different temperatures. You can have diff--places with sun, and soil, and wind. On our property, which dropped off to a--a canyon, the temperature dropped dramatically, including frost, and the prevailing westerly winds were an issue. We were able to grow for ourselves in that canyon, apples, cherries, pears, fruits that needed a lot of chill time. But we weren&#039 ; t selling those. (clears her throat, plane can be heard in the background) We also ended up, though, having to plant a wind break to protect the cherimoyas (chuckles) that we had planted. Who knew! But, we chose wisely because we chose Satsuma tangerines, which proved to be--be-- very popular, so it all worked out. (clears her throat again) Some research was more scientific because soil and water can be tested for pH and salinity and minerals, and there are a lot of excellent resources out--out there that--that I need to, uh, recommend, because um,--I&#039 ; m going to read this just to make sure I get it correct--um, the University of California Cooperative Extension has the names of labs. Okay, you have to pay for them. But, especially soil analysis is--is important, because you need to understand the plants ability to absorb nutrients. You can even take them leaves from your plants, and they will analyze whether they are taking up nutrients as needed. I also want to recommend specific groups like--we had the California Rare Fruit Growers. There&#039 ; s a--a branch in North County and also one at Balboa Park. There&#039 ; s the California Cherimoya Association and other fruits have their Associations as well. And, of course, the United States Department of Agriculture. And I can&#039 ; t forget the Master Gardener Association, because they have workshops and blogs and so much information. And in the past 20 to 30 years, it&#039 ; s been easy to find information, easier, because of the internet. And whether you&#039 ; re planting, or pruning, or harvesting, a YouTube video can teach you (starts to chuckle) just about anything you want! And they&#039 ; re fun! So, research is easier. But I still have to say that contact with people is key. The University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department--that&#039 ; s called the U.C.A.N.R.--is including--includes the County of San Diego Cooperative Extension and the Farm and Home Advisor--that&#039 ; s by county. And--and another part of the U.C.A.N.R. is the South Coast Research and Extension Center in Irvine, and (clears throat) it&#039 ; s a living laboratory for U.C. scientists where they are conducting agricultural research. It&#039 ; s a 200-acre facility, where they have outdoor events and demonstrations and classrooms. They have a glasshouse there. And they also have a huge cherimoya collection of trees that is just beautiful. And, of course, that was our connection to that place, besides the great people who are there. So, relationships and talking about them, kind of brings me to the selling part of all of this, because when we had enough fruit to sell, the Vista Farmer&#039 ; s Market was a consideration. But Nino decided to try small, family-owned, independent grocers first. Not chains (indicates &quot ; no&quot ; with her left finger). They won&#039 ; t even talk to you. Even Sprouts won&#039 ; t buy from individual farmers. So, let&#039 ; s find places where they will buy locally. Now, farmer&#039 ; s markets do have advantages--meeting other farmers, learning about crops, meeting the public. But, they require labor time away from the farm and picking for unknown demand in advance. And that, with fruit on trees, is problematic. So as an experienced (chuckles) salesman, Nino knew to find out what the customer wanted, and he harvested by their needs! He would check their stock, or they would call. Sometimes he would deliver two to three times a week, especially during times like the Lunar New Year, things like that. That special attention is what builds relationships and loyalty. He also learned to sell by (chuckles) uniform size. They didn&#039 ; t want all different sizes of fruit. They wanted uniform. But then he had to be creative, too. And he was always making sure that he was interacting with the produce people at the store, whether they&#039 ; re the guys putting out the fruit or the managers, because that kind of connection does it all. So, (sighs) pre-pandemic, Nino was even doing free tastings at Frazier Farms which was one of his main sources, uh, sales--of sales. He--he would cut up (gestures cutting with a knife) cherimoyas and take them there and they weren&#039 ; t well known but once people tried them, they were going to buy. Now, at one point, customers would see Nino delivering and they would stop him in the parking lot, asking to buy fruit themselves. He declined right away, partly because of the amount that they wanted. He realized that they were going to be reselling and competing with his customer right there in the store. So, it would be also disruptive to have these people coming to the property and wanting to buy, so, no. But it did get Nino thinking about sharing the experience of the farm. MeetUp groups were starting at that time. They were the thing, like signing up online for different activities. So, we started having U-Picks. We set up two timeslots on Saturday mornings, where people could sign up online, and they would come and Nino would give a presentation on the farm and the different fruits, and I provided samples of fruit and preserves and--and cherimoya ice cream and recipes. Oh, they loved that! So, it was a success. Families came with their kids, mostly from San Diego proper, you know. They were city people. But they were enjoying an outing in the country, and they enjoyed the property. They loved picking the fruit. So, these are people who wanted their kids to know where fruit comes from! Wow! (laughs) And the kids especially liked picking the tangerines. We made a lot of friends over the ten years that we did that, and we got to watch those kids grow up. They--they also liked feeding my chickens. Now, some customers--I put that in quotes (gestures making quotation marks with her hands) &#039 ; cuz yes they were customers but they became friends and they would volunteer to come and help during the summer with the hand pollination and the--of the cherimoyas and so we--we had some--some really good connections that way. We even found a couple of paid workers from that group. Now, over the years, we had a lot of visitors to the farm. Um, usually by word of mouth or connections to the Farm Bureau, and that would include restaurant owners, especially Asian and South American, produce managers from independent grocers. I think of Barons Market, especially, because we had one produce manager from one store come and pretty soon all of the stores were buying from us. We even had wholesale produce managers (rubs hands together), um, specialty produce in the San Diego. They--they sell to the public, but they would come and--and visit and see the farm. And we also had students come to visit. They were from Cal Poly Pomona and there&#039 ; s a College of Agriculture Plant Sciences there, and they were taking a class. I--I remember Dr. Greg Partida, who retired in 2010, but he had a class on subtropical fruit production and he would bring his students on field trips to the farm. So, that socialization is so important because farming, even on a small farm, can be really isolating. There&#039 ; s so much to do, day-to-day. People, since the pandemic, working from home, have found out how strange that is, really, that instead of going to the office every day, they&#039 ; re--they&#039 ; re at home. And--and that&#039 ; s kind of like what it&#039 ; s--what it is to--to be a small farmer, too. I wanted to talk a little bit about, um, record keeping, because it&#039 ; s so impart--important in farming and with the advent of the internet and--and computers, it&#039 ; s changed a lot. But, it&#039 ; s still a--a beneficial skill set, whether you&#039 ; re talking about taxes, or income, or expenses, or irrigation, equipment, payroll, any of that. But, um, another use for--for keeping track of--of information is monitoring the production of the--the crops, whether it&#039 ; s by varieties, where they&#039 ; re growing on the property, the quality from year to year. And an example of this is really in--in Nino&#039 ; s participation in the--the Cooperative Extension&#039 ; s Blueberry Test Plot Program, which was twenty years ago. Now, traditionally blueberries were a cold weather plant that would go dormant every year. In California, the plants bloom year-round, and they wear themselves out. So, Nino, once again, wanted to plant things that no one else plants and there was a lot of research going on as to how to extend the blueberry&#039 ; s range. Through the Farm and Home Advisor Ramiro Lobo, Nino was given four plants each of nine different varieties of southern blueberries. The soil pH that we had was way too alkaline and it had to be augmented. Temperature had to be monitored. Pests considered. The Farm Bureau was very supportive throughout all of this. They even ended up building us a netted structure to keep the birds off. But, Nino was instrumental in monitoring and recording the blossoms, the fruit, the production for each plant. They called him Mr. Spreadsheet (both she and Wheeler chuckle). Well, Excel to the rescue, you know? Because, in--and--I--I have a--a photo of him here, if you&#039 ; d like to see, where he is, um, (shows a photo of Nino, camera pans in) taking the blossoms off of the blueberry plants. Now, why would he be doing that? You know? For two years, he did that, so that the young plants could use their energy to grow. And then he would take the berries from each variety and weigh them and--and count them, and that&#039 ; s how they decided which varieties would be the most productive in southern California. Now, there were other farmers doing that too, but in 2002, California produced two million pounds of blueberries. Okay. Twenty years later, 53.4 million pounds of blueberries, sixth in the United States. This boom is due to technological growing skills and adventurous producers, and he was part of all of that. My part with the blueberries was, (clears her throat) when I retired from teaching, then I was in charge of the blueberries. Okay. But think of it this way. Four dollars for six ounces (gestures as if telling a secret)--I was selling them at school. So, that translates to twelve dollars a pound. Now, what ev--other fruit is going to sell for twelve dollars a pound! In the past ten years, in the United States, the output of blueberries has tripled. And that&#039 ; s in the U.S. alone. And the main states are Washington, Georgia, and my home state, Michigan. So, why is that increased so much. Because of the research talking about antioxidants. So, in ten years, they have become really huge crop. Okay, today, what country do you think grows the most blueberries? I&#039 ; ll tell you. Peru! Is that somethin&#039 ; or what? Which, for me, is kind of a full circle because that&#039 ; s where cherimoyas are from. Okay. So, I have just a little bit more, because I sold the farm after Nino&#039 ; s death. I had three people interested. One couple wanted it as an investment, (said in nasal utterance) ehh. Another couple ended up buying a larger property in Valley Center. But, the--the family that I--I sold to love it there, and they&#039 ; re trying to keep it going. They have no clue how much work it takes, especially with their three kids and two dogs, but hey. That&#039 ; s--that&#039 ; s--that&#039 ; s their issue. They&#039 ; re keeping it going, and I--I--I wish them all the best. Now, (clears her throat) when it--when it comes to innovation in farming, I guess that--that--that besides his interaction with people, innovation was something that--that Nino was very attracted to, because he was always trying new irrigation. We had installed a--a well, which saved on water. But electricity was expensive. So, we invested in solar panels. And in the year 2000, we were one of the fifty original installations of net metering in the--in the county. So, it was always somethin&#039 ; , you know. We had a cell tower on the property. Very good income. Verizon had been pursuing us for several years for that. And finally we were able to get them to choose a location and (chuckles) give us a fake tree design that was acceptable that we couldn&#039 ; t see from the house. So, always moving forward with something, that is the exciting part of changes and I mentioned these as evidence because technological innovation in all our lives, including farming, is key. What&#039 ; s next? (puts up her hands, palms facing camera) I don&#039 ; t know. Robots? (laughs) I don&#039 ; t know! But--but Nino was able to embrace new ideas and change. And new farmers are going to have to do the same. Wheeler: Oh. Thank you so much. It&#039 ; s so exciting because we are all changing no matter what we--what we do. The--I was really curious about--say more about how innovative--what--what made him feel that way, think that way. Curiosity coming from another country and embracing so many differences, but being innovative with that help, maybe in spite of it sometimes. Cupaiuolo: Well, he had many different abilities. I had mentioned that he spoke four languages. His father was an artist, and Nino was very artistic. So, he had a very creative part of his personality, besides being just so outgoing. And, um, he loved to--to try new things. Wheeler: And that is wonderful! The other thing that I think depicts all of this was the number of articles written about him and that he helped promote, and to let the world know how he was, um, being innovative― Cupaiuolo: Uh-huh. Wheeler: ―in a very creative way. And that personality came across, and people accepted that. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: And there was so much camaraderie in it. Did you ever do tours of your farm? Cupaiuolo: Uh, yes, there were farm tours that were set up. And people, through the Farm Bureau, would come from different parts of the country, even. They would come on a bus! (shrugs) Because small farms, for a long time really, have been a focus of--of many different states. We even had the president of the University of California come on one of the--the tours, and wrote us a--a very nice thank you letter afterward, because they were interested in how much they should be focusing on the part of the University of California that was devoted to agriculture and farming. Wheeler: That&#039 ; s great. Would--sometimes when we&#039 ; re driving in the freeway and it&#039 ; s pretty much a parking lot for a couple of hours of the day, and we get this vision of wouldn&#039 ; t it be nice to be on a little farm or little acreage somewhere, do you have any advice to people who have that dream. Cupaiuolo: (purses her lips and blows out air, then clears her throat) Well, I think that it takes more than people think in terms of resources and, um, research (chuckles), and it--it&#039 ; s not something to jump into lightly. It is possible to buy a farm that&#039 ; s already operating, and that--that&#039 ; s what the young family did from--from me, last year. So-- Wheeler: And the cost of real estate has made that less available to a lot of people, too. Cupaiuolo: Well, that is--that--that&#039 ; s (nodding) Wheeler: So much going on in this farming industry. That&#039 ; s why it&#039 ; s very important to have the history of how it has been, in order to build on to the future. Do you happen to have a photo of Nino? Cupaiuolo: I do! (reaches to her right, and pulls out a photo). What is--what&#039 ; s happening to that. There it is! Wheeler: Oh, and he has some of the cherimoyas. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: That one is large! How large do they get? Cupaiuolo: Well, that was a three pounder. Wheeler: Mmm--wow. Cupaiuolo: Yeah, that--that would be fifteen dollars right there. Wheeler: Yes. Cupaiuolo: And you know what? People would buy them! Wheeler: It&#039 ; s amazing the costs of them. But now that I understand more about the--the detail and the--the labor intensiveness of it, um-- Cupaiuolo: Course, if that--that wouldn&#039 ; t all be fruit-less, if people didn&#039 ; t love the fruit. So-- Wheeler: Right. Exactly. Um-- Cupaiuolo: But, hey, look at what we pay for blueberries per month. Wheeler: Do you know of any other orchards that are doing that right now? Or is it a popular-- Cupaiuolo: For the cherimoya? Wheeler: Yes. Cupaiuolo: Not that I know of. I mean, there are people on the side. Competition. There was a guy in Oceanside who had purchased a cherimoya orchard and he had small, misshapen fruit. And he offered to sell it to Frazier Farms for three dollars a pound rather than the five dollars a pound that we were selling fruit. So the produce manager from Frader--Frazier Farms came to Nino and said, &quot ; I have this guy that&#039 ; s going to sell me fruit at three dollars a pound, so that&#039 ; s all I&#039 ; m going to pay you.&quot ; And Nino said, &quot ; eh-eh.&quot ; (gestures with her finger as if saying no). So, he was then out there exploring new avenues. But, it didn&#039 ; t take long before that fruit just sat in the store and wouldn&#039 ; t sell. No matter what the price was. Because people had expectations of what they had seen before. Wheeler: Yes, wow. Very interesting. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: Thank you so much for sharing this part of para-agriculture, which is a pretty new phrase to a--phase for a lot of us. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. It was new to me. Wheeler: And the up--the fact that we are the largest county in the United States with that kind of urban and city mixture makes it even more diversified and more interesting to live here. It&#039 ; s not wonder to me that the price of land has gone up as much as it has. It&#039 ; s very desirable. The--We are, however, in my humble opinion, at a cusp of which direction are we going in the future. And how will agriculture look in twenty years from now. But, you&#039 ; ve given us a wonderful foundation for how it came this far, what kind of innovation it took, what kind of knowledge. It&#039 ; s not for the weak--physically, mentally, or otherwise. And I&#039 ; m so appreciative of what you&#039 ; ve done. Thank you so much. Cupaiuolo: Oh, it&#039 ; s been my pleasure. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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Interview February 23, 2023 Description An account of the resource The Primavera Orchard was owned and operated by Giovanni and Susan Cupaiuolo from 1991 until Nino’s death in 2020 in Vista, California. It was a six acre peri-urban farm specializing in the growth, preparation, promotion and detailed hand-pollinated fruit from a variety of cherimoya trees. Cherimoya trees are a tropical fruit tree which will only grow in Southern California and are very expensive due to the complicated and dedicated care of the trees and cultivations. The Cupaiuolos later introduced blueberries to the area to provide this northern fruit into the local markets during the northern dormant season. Other fruits and vegetables were grown for personal use. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-24 Subject The topic of the resource Blueberries Cherimoya Orchards -- California -- Vista Tree crops Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-02-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Susan Cupaiuolo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lucy Wheeler Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vista (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Susan Cupaiuolo Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5af2f72446a3d7bf9cdf8db3952005c8.pdf defee5e2470badc29a52a43f13afacbe PDF Text Text SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Lucy Wheeler: Good afternoon. My name is Lucy Wheeler and it’s February the 23rd, 2023. We’re here to interview Susan— Susan Cupaiuolo: Cupaiuolo. Wheeler: Kupaiyalo. Thank you. (Cupaiuolo chuckles) Uh, this is in behalf of the North County Oral History Initiative being put on by Cal State and San Marcos and the Museum of History here in San Marcos. The history of our North County—and just as a preliminary to your story, Susan—the county of San Diego is a very unique situation in that it’s the ninth largest city in the United States, but it’s in the community of the county. The fourth largest industry is agriculture, and most of that, or 70% of that, is soon to be in the North County. Part of that agricultural industry makes it a–well, it’s the largest area in the United States with the most farms. Your story shows one of the areas of that agriculture which is kind of overlooked, and that is, in 2017 the county of San Diego estimated and actually counted that there were 5,000 small parafarmers, which is ten acres or less, and how they operate. And your story can bring us a wealth of information to that. So, with that beginning, tell us a little bit about yourself, your husband, where you were born, and what your interest in agriculture was. Cupaiuolo: (nods) I’d be glad to give some background on this. My husband was Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo. He died in October 2020 at the height of the pandemic. Uh, he was 86 years old. He had been in declining health physically and cognitively, and I just wish that he were here to tell this adventure, but I’ll do my best to–to share it. Um, I’m going to call him “Nino.” He grew up in Milan, Italy during World War II. He had one brother. His father was from Naples and his mother from Sicily. Farming was not in his background, and, um, I’m setting that up as making sure we don’t have these assumptions about Italians who grew up on farms and have these big families, okay? Because that’s–that’s not the–the way it was for him. He had a master’s degree in international marketing, and he spoke four languages. He sold industrial instrumentation in Europe and in the United States for over forty years. His first wife was an American. She worked at the U.S. Consulate in Milan. She was from Riverside, and they eventually settled with their three children in Orange County. For the first time, they had a yard! You know. Growing up in Milan, apartment, maybe you have a balcony with some pots. But the garden that he had, and they had chickens and the kids loved it. He learned that he loved growing things. Nino and I met and married in Michigan, where I am from. I was teaching and he was working there selling to the auto industry. He was transferred again in 1988 and we moved to Orange County. So, how did a schoolteacher from western Michigan and an Italian end up with a sixacre farm in north San Diego County? Well, I have to say at this point that it was driven by Nino, who was looking for a place to enjoy his retirement. I was happy teaching in Huntington Beach, but his territory stretched from San Diego to L.A. and beyond and he was on the road a lot. On Friday, one Friday, in 1991, he was returning from San Diego and he stopped off at a–a nursery in North Vista and, um, when he arrived home he said, “I’ve found where we’re going to retire.” So, the next day we started looking, and we found two acres on a subdivided avocado grove off of Gopher Canyon Road. And the journey began! Transcribed by Melissa Martin 1 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 At first, we commuted to the property on the weekends, and it–it was–it was perfect. It was hectic, but it was perfect. The Fuerte avocados there were in decline, and they were alive but failing, because after the introduction of the Hass variety, the–the cultivar, um, Fuerte fell out of favor. So, the 45-acre grove was subdivided into two-to-four-acre plots and put up for sale. So, what do you do with aging avocado trees? You stop watering them because avocados need 40 inches of rain a year. So, it didn’t take long. When the adjacent four acres became available, we were able to buy them as well and that included a grove of already-producing persimmons— Hachiyas and Fuyus. So, that gave us a place to start. We moved to the farm in 1994, fixed up a small house on the property, and over the next year we removed all of the metal irrigation pipes (chuckles) and those dead avocado trees. By the way, avocado wood makes great firewood. We were selling it and giving it away for years! Okay, enough background. What does it take to have a small farm? Well, besides resources like land and equipment and irrigation, you need physical energy and strength (chuckles) and a lot of knowledge based on research. And that would include—before you even get started—the microclimate, the soil, the water sources. And then you have to choose, based on that information, what to grow! Well, Nino wanted fruit trees. Okay. As I was saying, he was the driver of all of this (chuckles), so I was just along for the ride. But, he, in particular, wanted cherimoyas, and that was because he had the year before, out of curiosity, bought a cherimoya fruit at a market and he loved it. He saved the seeds, and he planted them in pots. In fact, there was a cherimoya tree on the property, right by the front door! After much research—this was in 1993—early days of the internet, okay? But, we learned that cherimoyas would do really well in our area. Not from seed, however. (indicates “no” with her left pointer finger, and clears her throat.) It–it took a big commitment, that’s for sure, because choosing to grow trees requires a longer-term outlook. Depending on how much time and money you have, you have to, um, invest, because the trees will take three to five years, or more, to produce, while row crops, like flowers or microgreens, for example, they can be seasonal. It was a big decision. It was a certain amount of trial and error—grafting, pollinating, planting. But, as it’s important to small farms in choosing a unique or niche product, not supplied (again indicated “no” with her finger) by larger farmers, it worked out! Now, at the time, that really wasn’t our focus, but it proved to be a huge advantage. A little bit about cherimoyas. They’re a subtropical fruit, native to the mountain valleys of Peru and Ecuador. It can be large, often heart-shaped. (Reaches for a fruit and holds it up for the camera while the camera pans in.) I can show you one. (Lays it back down, and begins to rub her hands together). They have overlapping scales—that’s what people call them, anyway. But, inside, it is white, and it has a custardy texture and it tastes like pineapple, banana, papaya, and in some varieties, even a pear! (Holds up a book with header reading “Gallery of Subtropical Plants” and contains a photo of the fruit and a cherimoya tree as well as textual information. Camera pans in on the page with the fruit image.) Southern California provides the–the best conditions in the United States for growing cherimoyas. The largest plantings are near Santa Barbara where most of that fruit is exported to Asia. The season is late winter to spring, so depending on the variety, that’s from November, December to March and April. The tricky thing Transcribed by Melissa Martin 2 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 (rubs her hands together) about growing cherimoyas is the pollination. Each blossom is both male and female, but bees are too big to enter this fleshy flower. To get full-sized fruit, hand pollination with a paintbrush is the key. It’s labor intensive in June, July, and August. It’s not difficult, but it is time consuming. Now, (looks to her left, towards the fruit) part of farming has to be knowing the microclimate and (clears her throat) in general, in San Diego, people know the difference between the–the cool coastal and the warmer inland valleys. But (rubs hands) even with careful research on the–on the property, it’s–it can throw you some–some confusing conditions, because, uh, there are different temperatures. You can have diff–places with sun, and soil, and wind. On our property, which dropped off to a–a canyon, the temperature dropped dramatically, including frost, and the prevailing westerly winds were an issue. We were able to grow for ourselves in that canyon, apples, cherries, pears, fruits that needed a lot of chill time. But we weren’t selling those. (clears her throat, plane can be heard in the background) We also ended up, though, having to plant a wind break to protect the cherimoyas (chuckles) that we had planted. Who knew! But, we chose wisely because we chose Satsuma tangerines, which proved to be–be– very popular, so it all worked out. (clears her throat again) Some research was more scientific because soil and water can be tested for pH and salinity and minerals, and there are a lot of excellent resources out–out there that–that I need to, uh, recommend, because um,—I’m going to read this just to make sure I get it correct—um, the University of California Cooperative Extension has the names of labs. Okay, you have to pay for them. But, especially soil analysis is–is important, because you need to understand the plants ability to absorb nutrients. You can even take them leaves from your plants, and they will analyze whether they are taking up nutrients as needed. I also want to recommend specific groups like—we had the California Rare Fruit Growers. There’s a–a branch in North County and also one at Balboa Park. There’s the California Cherimoya Association and other fruits have their Associations as well. And, of course, the United States Department of Agriculture. And I can’t forget the Master Gardener Association, because they have workshops and blogs and so much information. And in the past 20 to 30 years, it’s been easy to find information, easier, because of the internet. And whether you’re planting, or pruning, or harvesting, a YouTube video can teach you (starts to chuckle) just about anything you want! And they’re fun! So, research is easier. But I still have to say that contact with people is key. The University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department—that’s called the U.C.A.N.R.—is including–includes the County of San Diego Cooperative Extension and the Farm and Home Advisor—that’s by county. And–and another part of the U.C.A.N.R. is the South Coast Research and Extension Center in Irvine, and (clears throat) it’s a living laboratory for U.C. scientists where they are conducting agricultural research. It’s a 200-acre facility, where they have outdoor events and demonstrations and classrooms. They have a glasshouse there. And they also have a huge cherimoya collection of trees that is just beautiful. And, of course, that was our connection to that place, besides the great people who are there. So, relationships and talking about them, kind of brings me to the selling part of all of this, because when we had enough fruit to sell, the Vista Farmer’s Market was a consideration. But Transcribed by Melissa Martin 3 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Nino decided to try small, family-owned, independent grocers first. Not chains (indicates “no” with her left finger). They won’t even talk to you. Even Sprouts won’t buy from individual farmers. So, let’s find places where they will buy locally. Now, farmer’s markets do have advantages—meeting other farmers, learning about crops, meeting the public. But, they require labor time away from the farm and picking for unknown demand in advance. And that, with fruit on trees, is problematic. So as an experienced (chuckles) salesman, Nino knew to find out what the customer wanted, and he harvested by their needs! He would check their stock, or they would call. Sometimes he would deliver two to three times a week, especially during times like the Lunar New Year, things like that. That special attention is what builds relationships and loyalty. He also learned to sell by (chuckles) uniform size. They didn’t want all different sizes of fruit. They wanted uniform. But then he had to be creative, too. And he was always making sure that he was interacting with the produce people at the store, whether they’re the guys putting out the fruit or the managers, because that kind of connection does it all. So, (sighs) pre-pandemic, Nino was even doing free tastings at Frazier Farms which was one of his main sources, uh, sales–of sales. He–he would cut up (gestures cutting with a knife) cherimoyas and take them there and they weren’t well known but once people tried them, they were going to buy. Now, at one point, customers would see Nino delivering and they would stop him in the parking lot, asking to buy fruit themselves. He declined right away, partly because of the amount that they wanted. He realized that they were going to be reselling and competing with his customer right there in the store. So, it would be also disruptive to have these people coming to the property and wanting to buy, so, no. But it did get Nino thinking about sharing the experience of the farm. MeetUp groups were starting at that time. They were the thing, like signing up online for different activities. So, we started having U-Picks. We set up two timeslots on Saturday mornings, where people could sign up online, and they would come and Nino would give a presentation on the farm and the different fruits, and I provided samples of fruit and preserves and–and cherimoya ice cream and recipes. Oh, they loved that! So, it was a success. Families came with their kids, mostly from San Diego proper, you know. They were city people. But they were enjoying an outing in the country, and they enjoyed the property. They loved picking the fruit. So, these are people who wanted their kids to know where fruit comes from! Wow! (laughs) And the kids especially liked picking the tangerines. We made a lot of friends over the ten years that we did that, and we got to watch those kids grow up. They–they also liked feeding my chickens. Now, some customers—I put that in quotes (gestures making quotation marks with her hands) ‘cuz yes they were customers but they became friends and they would volunteer to come and help during the summer with the hand pollination and the–of the cherimoyas and so we–we had some–some really good connections that way. We even found a couple of paid workers from that group. Now, over the years, we had a lot of visitors to the farm. Um, usually by word of mouth or connections to the Farm Bureau, and that would include restaurant owners, especially Asian and South American, produce managers from independent grocers. I think of Barons Market, especially, because we had one produce manager from one store come and pretty soon all of the Transcribed by Melissa Martin 4 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 stores were buying from us. We even had wholesale produce managers (rubs hands together), um, specialty produce in the San Diego. They–they sell to the public, but they would come and– and visit and see the farm. And we also had students come to visit. They were from Cal Poly Pomona and there’s a College of Agriculture Plant Sciences there, and they were taking a class. I–I remember Dr. Greg Partida, who retired in 2010, but he had a class on subtropical fruit production and he would bring his students on field trips to the farm. So, that socialization is so important because farming, even on a small farm, can be really isolating. There’s so much to do, day-to-day. People, since the pandemic, working from home, have found out how strange that is, really, that instead of going to the office every day, they’re– they’re at home. And–and that’s kind of like what it’s–what it is to–to be a small farmer, too. I wanted to talk a little bit about, um, record keeping, because it’s so impart–important in farming and with the advent of the internet and–and computers, it’s changed a lot. But, it’s still a–a beneficial skill set, whether you’re talking about taxes, or income, or expenses, or irrigation, equipment, payroll, any of that. But, um, another use for–for keeping track of–of information is monitoring the production of the–the crops, whether it’s by varieties, where they’re growing on the property, the quality from year to year. And an example of this is really in–in Nino’s participation in the–the Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program, which was twenty years ago. Now, traditionally blueberries were a cold weather plant that would go dormant every year. In California, the plants bloom year-round, and they wear themselves out. So, Nino, once again, wanted to plant things that no one else plants and there was a lot of research going on as to how to extend the blueberry’s range. Through the Farm and Home Advisor Ramiro Lobo, Nino was given four plants each of nine different varieties of southern blueberries. The soil pH that we had was way too alkaline and it had to be augmented. Temperature had to be monitored. Pests considered. The Farm Bureau was very supportive throughout all of this. They even ended up building us a netted structure to keep the birds off. But, Nino was instrumental in monitoring and recording the blossoms, the fruit, the production for each plant. They called him Mr. Spreadsheet (both she and Wheeler chuckle). Well, Excel to the rescue, you know? Because, in–and—I–I have a–a photo of him here, if you’d like to see, where he is, um, (shows a photo of Nino, camera pans in) taking the blossoms off of the blueberry plants. Now, why would he be doing that? You know? For two years, he did that, so that the young plants could use their energy to grow. And then he would take the berries from each variety and weigh them and–and count them, and that’s how they decided which varieties would be the most productive in southern California. Now, there were other farmers doing that too, but in 2002, California produced two million pounds of blueberries. Okay. Twenty years later, 53.4 million pounds of blueberries, sixth in the United States. This boom is due to technological growing skills and adventurous producers, and he was part of all of that. My part with the blueberries was, (clears her throat) when I retired from teaching, then I was in charge of the blueberries. Okay. But think of it this way. Four dollars for six ounces (gestures as if telling a secret)—I was selling them at school. So, that translates to twelve dollars a pound. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 5 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Now, what ev–other fruit is going to sell for twelve dollars a pound! In the past ten years, in the United States, the output of blueberries has tripled. And that’s in the U.S. alone. And the main states are Washington, Georgia, and my home state, Michigan. So, why is that increased so much. Because of the research talking about antioxidants. So, in ten years, they have become really huge crop. Okay, today, what country do you think grows the most blueberries? I’ll tell you. Peru! Is that somethin’ or what? Which, for me, is kind of a full circle because that’s where cherimoyas are from. Okay. So, I have just a little bit more, because I sold the farm after Nino’s death. I had three people interested. One couple wanted it as an investment, (said in nasal utterance) ehh. Another couple ended up buying a larger property in Valley Center. But, the–the family that I–I sold to love it there, and they’re trying to keep it going. They have no clue how much work it takes, especially with their three kids and two dogs, but hey. That’s–that’s–that’s their issue. They’re keeping it going, and I–I–I wish them all the best. Now, (clears her throat) when it–when it comes to innovation in farming, I guess that–that–that besides his interaction with people, innovation was something that–that Nino was very attracted to, because he was always trying new irrigation. We had installed a–a well, which saved on water. But electricity was expensive. So, we invested in solar panels. And in the year 2000, we were one of the fifty original installations of net metering in the–in the county. So, it was always somethin’, you know. We had a cell tower on the property. Very good income. Verizon had been pursuing us for several years for that. And finally we were able to get them to choose a location and (chuckles) give us a fake tree design that was acceptable that we couldn’t see from the house. So, always moving forward with something, that is the exciting part of changes and I mentioned these as evidence because technological innovation in all our lives, including farming, is key. What’s next? (puts up her hands, palms facing camera) I don’t know. Robots? (laughs) I don’t know! But–but Nino was able to embrace new ideas and change. And new farmers are going to have to do the same. Wheeler: Oh. Thank you so much. It’s so exciting because we are all changing no matter what we–what we do. The—I was really curious about—say more about how innovative—what–what made him feel that way, think that way. Curiosity coming from another country and embracing so many differences, but being innovative with that help, maybe in spite of it sometimes. Cupaiuolo: Well, he had many different abilities. I had mentioned that he spoke four languages. His father was an artist, and Nino was very artistic. So, he had a very creative part of his personality, besides being just so outgoing. And, um, he loved to–to try new things. Wheeler: And that is wonderful! The other thing that I think depicts all of this was the number of articles written about him and that he helped promote, and to let the world know how he was, um, being innovative― Transcribed by Melissa Martin 6 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Cupaiuolo: Uh-huh. Wheeler: ―in a very creative way. And that personality came across, and people accepted that. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: And there was so much camaraderie in it. Did you ever do tours of your farm? Cupaiuolo: Uh, yes, there were farm tours that were set up. And people, through the Farm Bureau, would come from different parts of the country, even. They would come on a bus! (shrugs) Because small farms, for a long time really, have been a focus of–of many different states. We even had the president of the University of California come on one of the–the tours, and wrote us a–a very nice thank you letter afterward, because they were interested in how much they should be focusing on the part of the University of California that was devoted to agriculture and farming. Wheeler: That’s great. Would—sometimes when we’re driving in the freeway and it’s pretty much a parking lot for a couple of hours of the day, and we get this vision of wouldn’t it be nice to be on a little farm or little acreage somewhere, do you have any advice to people who have that dream. Cupaiuolo: (purses her lips and blows out air, then clears her throat) Well, I think that it takes more than people think in terms of resources and, um, research (chuckles), and it–it’s not something to jump into lightly. It is possible to buy a farm that’s already operating, and that– that’s what the young family did from–from me, last year. So— Wheeler: And the cost of real estate has made that less available to a lot of people, too. Cupaiuolo: Well, that is–that–that’s (nodding) Wheeler: So much going on in this farming industry. That’s why it’s very important to have the history of how it has been, in order to build on to the future. Do you happen to have a photo of Nino? Cupaiuolo: I do! (reaches to her right, and pulls out a photo). What is–what’s happening to that. There it is! Wheeler: Oh, and he has some of the cherimoyas. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: That one is large! How large do they get? Cupaiuolo: Well, that was a three pounder. Wheeler: Mmm–wow. Cupaiuolo: Yeah, that–that would be fifteen dollars right there. Wheeler: Yes. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 7 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Cupaiuolo: And you know what? People would buy them! Wheeler: It’s amazing the costs of them. But now that I understand more about the–the detail and the–the labor intensiveness of it, um— Cupaiuolo: Course, if that–that wouldn’t all be fruit-less, if people didn’t love the fruit. So— Wheeler: Right. Exactly. Um— Cupaiuolo: But, hey, look at what we pay for blueberries per month. Wheeler: Do you know of any other orchards that are doing that right now? Or is it a popular— Cupaiuolo: For the cherimoya? Wheeler: Yes. Cupaiuolo: Not that I know of. I mean, there are people on the side. Competition. There was a guy in Oceanside who had purchased a cherimoya orchard and he had small, misshapen fruit. And he offered to sell it to Frazier Farms for three dollars a pound rather than the five dollars a pound that we were selling fruit. So the produce manager from Frader–Frazier Farms came to Nino and said, “I have this guy that’s going to sell me fruit at three dollars a pound, so that’s all I’m going to pay you.” And Nino said, “eh-eh.” (gestures with her finger as if saying no). So, he was then out there exploring new avenues. But, it didn’t take long before that fruit just sat in the store and wouldn’t sell. No matter what the price was. Because people had expectations of what they had seen before. Wheeler: Yes, wow. Very interesting. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: Thank you so much for sharing this part of para-agriculture, which is a pretty new phrase to a—phase for a lot of us. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. It was new to me. Wheeler: And the up—the fact that we are the largest county in the United States with that kind of urban and city mixture makes it even more diversified and more interesting to live here. It’s not wonder to me that the price of land has gone up as much as it has. It’s very desirable. The— We are, however, in my humble opinion, at a cusp of which direction are we going in the future. And how will agriculture look in twenty years from now. But, you’ve given us a wonderful foundation for how it came this far, what kind of innovation it took, what kind of knowledge. It’s not for the weak—physically, mentally, or otherwise. And I’m so appreciative of what you’ve done. Thank you so much. Cupaiuolo: Oh, it’s been my pleasure. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 8 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 GLOSSARY Barons Market (pg.5) California Cherimoya Association (pg.3) California Rare Fruit Growers (pg.3) Cherimoya (pg.2) College of Agriculture Plant Science [Cal Poly Pomona] (pg. 5) Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program (pg.5) County of San Diego Cooperative Extension (pg.3) Farm and Home Advisor (pg.3,5) Farm Bureau (pg.5) Frazier Farms (pg.4) Fuerte avocados (pg.2) Fuyu persimmons (pg.2) Hachiya persimmons (pg.2) Hass [avocado] (pg.2) Lobo, Ramiro (pg.5) Lunar New Year (pg.4) Master Gardener Association (pg.3) Museum of History [San Marcos] (pg.1) North County Oral History Initiative (pg.1) Para-agriculture (pg.8) Para-farmers (pg.1) Partida, Dr. Greg (pg.5) Satsuma tangerines (pg.3) South Coast Research and Extension Center (pg.3) United States Department of Agriculture (pg.3) University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department [U.C.A.N.R.] (pg.3) University of California Cooperative Extension (pg.3) Transcribed by Melissa Martin 9 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 U-Picks (pg.5) Valley Center (pg.6) Vista Farmer’s Market (pg.4) Transcribed by Melissa Martin 10 2023-04-04 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cupaiuolo, Susan. Interview transcript. February 23, 2023 Description An account of the resource The Primavera Orchard was owned and operated by Giovanni and Susan Cupaiuolo from 1991 until Nino’s death in 2020 in Vista, California. It was a six acre peri-urban farm specializing in the growth, preparation, promotion and detailed hand-pollinated fruit from a variety of cherimoya trees. Cherimoya trees are a tropical fruit tree which will only grow in Southern California and are very expensive due to the complicated and dedicated care of the trees and cultivations. The Cupaiuolos later introduced blueberries to the area to provide this northern fruit into the local markets during the northern dormant season. Other fruits and vegetables were grown for personal use. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Susan Cupaiuolo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lucy Wheeler Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-02-23 Subject The topic of the resource Blueberries Cherimoya Orchards -- California -- Vista Tree crops Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vista (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. 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Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CupaiuoloSusan_WheelerLucy_2023-02-23_transcript Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/3b6624b33deba86cb7ceb886c3d6cec2.mp4 b5ff77a5c0e25454c0dcaa2b8a431ee0 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral history of Tanis Brown, April 13, 2022 Description An account of the resource Tanis Brown is the President of the San Marcos Historical Society and is involved in many local history projects and educational outreach initiatives. In this interview, Tanis discusses her involvement in the city of San Marcos, CA since the 1970s. Tanis quickly became active in the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce and was among the first group of students to enroll in California State University San Marcos. A few years later, she became an employee of CSUSM, establishing the university’s first housing program and working in human resources. Now as President of the San Marcos Historical Society, Tanis is passionate about sharing San Marcos’ local history with her community and with future generations. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tanis Brown Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-13 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BrownTanis_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-13.mp4 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. SC027: California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f91f84e4831ca55340c80edba7503653.pdf bcf9238ee0a2132eaf9eae864a9bed04 PDF Text Text TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Julia Friedman: Today is Wednesday, April 13th, 2022, at 9:58 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Tanis Brown for the University Library Special Collections Oral History project. Tanis, thank you for being here with me today. Tanis Brown: Oh, thank you. Hang on just a minute. I have to—all right. Friedman: Perfect. I would like to start by discussing your early days in the city of San Marcos, California. Why did you first move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, I first came to San Marcos in 1976 in the kind of summertime. We moved to San Marcos from Escondido. Friedman: And why did you move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, my husband and I had kind of outgrown our house in Escondido and we were looking—he was looking for a little more yard space so he could start to garden. And so, we were looking for a little bit larger house with a little more backyard. Friedman: And what were your first impressions of the city? Brown: Well, when we were looking at houses, I can remember my husband telling the realtor, “I'm not sure we want to live in San Marcos. It's kind of the boonies, isn't it?” And, at that time, San Marcos was certainly not the city it is today. It was a lot more rural. Many, many mobile home parks, about twelve if I remember correctly. Only four to five elementary schools and we had two children in school, so we were looking for, you know, a close-by school and again. So, taking some choices about, well, do we want a little bit bigger yard or do we want to stay in a more developed city, like Escondido? And I'm certainly glad that we opted to move to San Marcos. Friedman: That's great. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: How did you first become involved in the community of San Marcos during your first years in the city? Brown: Okay, so, right after we moved to San Marcos, I enrolled in an early childhood development course at Palomar college. I had been teaching preschool for a number of years and the first night of class, the teacher said the city of San Marcos is looking for a preschool teacher for their Raggedy Anne and Andy Program, which was very popular. It was expanding at that time. And so, I went the next day and put in an application and ended up getting a job with the city right away within the first couple of months. And so, it was a wonderful opportunity to meet people that worked for the city. Our location was where San Marcos City Hall is now, but the building was the red barn that is now located at Walnut Grove Park, that was where all the city recreation programs were hosted out of. That was the main office for our park and recreation program. So, I started working for the Raggedy Anne and Andy Program and was able to meet a lot of people that worked for the city at that time. And that was kind of our first introduction. And because we were such a small community, a couple of the city council people had their children enrolled in our ragged Anne and Andy program. So immediately, I met two or three city council people and through their children. So that's kind of our quick introduction. And I remember thinking, “Oh my gosh, I grew up in San Diego. I never ever knew anybody who's elected to anything.” Transcribed by Julia Friedman 1 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 And here we are, serving, the city council members’ children. So, it was a very close connection to the local government. Friedman: Have you remained within those organizations? Brown: Yes. So, in addition, I only were worked for the city for about a little bit over a year because, we lived overseas shortly after that, but when I came back, I had already been familiar with the park and recreation program. So, I applied to be a commissioner for the park and recreation program, which is an advisory commission for the city of San Marcos, overseeing the parks and recreation. And I was appointed to that and it was a perfect timing because the city was growing quite a bit and we were developing new parks. So, we went from three parks to eight parks to twelve parks, and I ended up sitting on that commission for over twenty years. So, it was really a great time to watch the city not only develop, but also plan for open space, parks, trails, that kept up with the development of additional housing. Friedman: That's wonderful. Oh my goodness. So, you really saw the city expand in just your first few years in San Marcos. And then shortly after, you enrolled in Cal State San Marcos [California State University San Marcos]. You were among the first class to enroll in 1989. Why did you decide to attend the university? Brown: (laughs) Well, my other--one of the other hats that I have worn for many years is the San Marcos Historical Society. And through that organization, I got to be involved with the Chamber of Commerce. We had a reciprocal agreement and I was attending a lot of Chamber events, and I was lucky enough to meet Richard Rush, who was the Dean of the North San Diego campus at that time. And he kept talking about, you know, they were going to have, well at one point, it was going to be a San Diego State satellite campus up in North County. And, you know, just a lot about that. So, I got to know him fairly well. And then, in 1989, when San Marcos was going to be the host city for the university, I thought, “Well, I better get in on the ground floor of this.” So, I applied to go take all my many, many undergraduate units and apply them towards a degree. All my kids were now in school. Perfect timing. So, I applied to go to be in the first graduating class of Cal State San Marcos. So, it was wonderful. And I can remember in my first--one of my first classes on the first day, Dick Rush came in and waved, sat and waved out the window. So it was, it was like, “Oh, this is great, this feels like home.” So, it was--it was very comfortable. Friedman: Oh, that's wonderful. Because I understand that the original campus was a storefront property while the permanent one was being built across town. Can you discuss what it was like attending CSUSM [California State University San Marcos] during those early days as a university? Brown: Yes, we called it Cal State Jerome’s [CSUSM was located near to a Jerome’s furniture store] and we were in industrial park and, there were very few classes. I remember we didn't have a full compliment of majors like we do now. And the first several years of campus life were only upper-class juniors and seniors, as well as teaching programs. So, we had only upper division classes and every semester there were only so many classes for each department. So pretty much everybody who was in one class was in all your classes together, depending on what your major was. So, we really got to know one another and there was a lot of camaraderie between the faculty, the students, the staff, because we were all about the same age. The average age of students in the first few years of Cal State San Marcos was thirty-nine years old. So, you can imagine that, we--some of us were older than our faculty Transcribed by Julia Friedman 2 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 members, our professors, and certainly had a lot of a local experience. But most people, it was most certainly a commuter campus. There wasn't much campus life. Friedman: What did you major in? Brown: Well, I was an English major with a minor in women's studies. Friedman: That's great. And how many students were enrolled in your cohort, or in your class? Brown: I think our first graduating class was between ninety and ninety-five, something like that. So, we all fit in Craven Circle, in three rows of chairs, just about. Friedman: I was actually expecting it to be a little smaller, but that's actually really interesting. Could you elaborate a little more on the comradery amongst your classmates? Kind of like, what was the culture like in general within your cohort? Brown: Well, like I say, most students were, you know, adults who have lots of other stuff going on. Most people were working, or parents, or involved in community activities or especially jobs. We were all [reentering]--most of us were reentry students. And so, in addition to taking classes, we had other things going on in our lives. So, it was a little bit challenging. I know when we started to try to talk about having student groups and all that. But once again, we--there was a deli in the industrial park called the Full Belly Deli. A lot of people would go there for lunch if they were able to be on campus for a whole day. Usually people came and went. It was very kind of a drive-by campus if you will, you know. People were there because there were not gathering places. So, we did try. We had powwows. Bonnie Biggs, who was the dean of the library at that time, brought in a lot of musical performances and it was really enriching and exposed us to a lot of, you know, great music. And like I say, we were involved with the Native American tribal community in the North County and so we hosted a powwow. So those were things that were also included as part of our school requirements to, you know, get involved in these international things that were going on campus. Friedman: That's great. And from what I understand, there were already some student organizations established on campus, such as ASI--? Brown: Well, no, the first year, Dr. Ernie Zomalt who's the Executive Vice President and Sandy Punch, who was doing student affairs, really helped form the first group for an election for the first Associated Students. And I had just had a conversation with Charles Ragland who is one of the former ASI presidents back in the early years. And, the first couple of years we did have the Associated Students, but it wasn't an incorporation, it was just a campus organization. We did vote and we did actually vote for some student fees. But yeah, so we did have an election and I was on the first Associated Students group and we did a lot of the heavy lifting of bylaw writing and that kind of thing, as well as trying to establish some kind of connection between students and trying to encourage them to think about imposing fees that would not necessarily impact them at all, but would impact the future of the university. Friedman: Thank you for clearing that up. Brown: Yeah. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 3 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: That's really interesting. And then as I understand it, you later became an employee a few years after graduating at CSUSM. Can you explain those roles that that you worked at CSUSM? Brown: Sure. So, after I graduated, I went to work for a social service agency in Vista Lifeline Community Services. And I was a grant writer there for about a year and a half. In the meantime, the campus had grown and were about to launch a (laughs) full four-year student body. And so, all of a sudden housing was needed. And because of my relationship with, you know, kind of the community, I had a lot of access to, you know, where to rent an apartment or this and that. I knew a lot of community members, my, you know, just community contacts. And so, I applied for a job with the university to be a Special Projects Coordinator in the Vice President's office. So, I went back and worked part-time, doing special projects. And then that job got extended to fifty percent of also housing and trying to not only help faculty members find housing, but also to help students find housing. And then actually starting the first housing program at Cal State San Marcos. So that was that became a bigger and bigger job (laughs) because we didn't have a facility. So, we had to go out and find housing. We had to find suitable housing for a group of students so that we could, you know, kind of cluster them together and create opportunities that would be quasi student life. And it was, it was a very interesting endeavor. (laughs) Friedman: It's important though. From what I understand, you also were involved in HR for many years and in the Retirees Association. Could you explain a little bit about your roles in those departments as well? Brown: Sure. So, I moved over to Human Resources as the Training Coordinator and my job was to provide training opportunities for staff and also develop a new employee orientation. So, I had the really fun job in Human Resources. I was kind of known as the “cheerleader” because in addition to training opportunities, one of the things that I really enjoyed doing was at the end of every year, we would do an employee recognition. This was before they had employee the month or anything like that. So once a year we would have an event that would recognize employees for their years of service. And just to, you know, just to thank employees for being on campus. In the early years, people moved around a lot just because of the growing campus. And so, there was a lot of expectation that don't get too used to the office that you're sitting in because six months now you may be moving to another office down the hallway. So, it was just a way to recognize, and I think the, you know, all the managers and leadership at the university really recognized how so many of the employees got called on to do things that they never expected to do when they were hired, just because we were a new campus and something new would come up and we just have to do it. And, we were very limited in staff. We didn't have three or four people in an office, but it was great. People enjoyed one another. And I have wonderful friends that I made at Cal State San Marcos, and it's carried over to the Retirees Association as well. So, and the other thing I loved about my job with orientation is that I got to meet everybody that was a new employee at the campus. So, I was kind of the face of HR, I believe, for many years, in terms of, you know, within their first couple of weeks of work, they were going to spend a day with me and I was going to kind of show the ropes of Cal State San Marcos. Later on, a lot of my job required a lot of compliance training as well, sexual harassment, and a lot of things like that in addition to the kind of enrichment training. Friedman: Well, thank you. So much of what you did as a student and as an employee at CSUSM seemed to involve community on campus. How did you see the CSUSM community develop over time? Brown: Are you talking about the campus community? Transcribed by Julia Friedman 4 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: Oh, yes. Sorry. Yes. Brown: Okay. Well, I visited campus yesterday and we walked through the dome and in the olden days, the dome was the only really gathering place on campus. So, if you worked in Craven Hall you had to walk through the dome from the parking lot and so you pass through it, it was the place that you could eat your lunch. And usually you'd always see somebody you knew in the dome. So, there were those opportunities to make friends. And some of the employees at actually were also taking classes while they were working at Cal State San Marcos. So, it was an opportunity for just meeting and getting to know one another. But, you know, I still get that same feel just when I've been on campus other times that, people are anxious to help, they are anxious to reach out. And even the President was pretty accessible when I was there. You know, Dr. Haynes was primarily the longest serving President when I was at Cal State San Marcos and she'd be out and about on campus. And, it was, it was really great to see, you know, to know that the President was walking around, seeing what was going on as well. So, and I still get that feeling that there's a lot of opportunity for meeting and greeting it at the university. Friedman: That's wonderful. I would like to jump ahead now, or I suppose, change topics. You had mentioned that when you were a student at Cal State San Marcos, you were already involved in the San Marcos Historical Society. When did you first become involved in the organization? Brown: Well, as I mentioned early on, we moved to San Marcos and within the first eighteen months, my husband had an opportunity to go overseas and teach at a military facility. So, we moved to Germany. We rented out our house and bundled up our family and moved to Germany for two years. And while I was there, I was not working. And so, I just fell in love with history. And there, you know, Europe is a little bit older than Southern California (laughs), and I just really latched onto history. And within about a month of us coming back and getting resettled into our house, I was walking in the neighborhood and realized that we had a historical house at the top of a hill, not far from where I live and it was being vandalized. So, I contacted the city and I said, “Somebody needs to do something about this, because we don't have very many historical houses in San Marcos.” What's, you know, who owns it and trying to get to the bottom of that. Anyway, the city manager at the time recommended that I contact the Historical Society and they could tell me a little bit more the house, but in the meantime, they were going to check it out and they did follow up and say, “Oh, the house has just been purchased and they are planning to renovate it.” So, that was a good opportunity for something good to happen. But I did visit the Historical Society shortly after that and was privileged to meet several families of, you know, descendants of the pioneer families that lived here in San Marcos. So, I don't know all the old timers but kind of the second generation of old timers. And I just was amazed at the, you know, what a small town San Marcos had, but what a rich history it had, which I'm still marveling at that every day. So, yes. So, they kind of adopted me. I was quite a bit younger than anybody who was serving at the Historical Society at that time and just had an opportunity to meet some wonderful people who could tell me great stories about the history of San Marcos. And so, I got involved there and just continued to stay involved for a number of years, and then took a hiatus when I went back to school. And so then jump forward twenty years after I retired and my husband and I traveled for a few years and then came back and the Historical Society was going to be relocating their museum. And that's the time I kind of stepped up and said, “Sure, I can help.” And, so that was in 2009 and I'm still there. (Brown and Friedman laugh) Friedman: Is that when you became President or were you [unintelligible]? Transcribed by Julia Friedman 5 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Brown: Yeah, I have been the President for a very long time. But yes, but we have a really wonderful group of not so many of the pioneer families are left here in San Marcos. But we do have a steadfast group of volunteers that help out. We established a hands-on history program and we've had a lot of Cal State San Marcos students. Want to find out about that. That are going into the teaching program. And we've also had a few internships and I've been able to connect with the, uh, we are a community partner through the community service learning program at Cal State San Marcos. Friedman: What has been your goal as present of the historical society? Brown: Oh my gosh. Well, moving forward, thinking about where we need to be in the future is first and foremost, we have two historical houses that will always need a lot of tender love and care and upkeep because they were built at the end of the nineteenth century, so they're quite old. So establishing an endowment fund for the houses to keep them and other historical houses in perpetuity or as long as they can stand. We also have--my immediate project is a fire engine that I'm trying to get fixed up so we can add it to our hands-on history program. And then, of course, the wonderful thing that we have is the documentation of our history and our archives. And I am blessed to be able to work with Sean [Visintainer] and Jennifer Ho on establishing a really good archival program for our records in the hope that they would be worthy of someone's collection at some point if anything should happen to the Historical Society. So, just kind of laying the foundation for the future, kind of the “what ifs” and “what would happen if” and “how might we continue to preserve these things.” Friedman: That's wonderful. That's very smart. You always need to be thinking forward for your archive collection. Going to your archive, do you have any gems in the archive that you would like to talk about or share? Brown: We have a couple things that are pretty special. So, in the early years of first establishing San Marcos, there were three distinct communities. There was the Twin Oaks area out on the Northeastern side of San Marcos. There was the area known as Richland, which is kind of the center of town and where Cal State San Marcos is. And then on the West end, there was a community known as Barham township. And Barham township today is kind of right on the border of San Marcos and Encinitas. And there was a gentleman named William Webster Borden, and William Webster Borden was the postmaster. He wrote the first newspaper that we have documented called The Plain Truth. And it was postmarked from Barham, California. Anyway, his great-great-grandson delivered to us William Webster Borden’s type desk, which is a tall chest that contains all the little letters to make a newspaper, the individual letters. And so, we are pleased to have William Webster Borden’s type desk. Another thing that we have inherited from that area, there used to be Meadowlark Ranch that was off Rancho Santa Fe Road. And we have the corral gate from Meadowlark Ranch that was taken down in the 1950s. And it is barely standing, but we have figured it up on our backyard so people can have a chance to see that. And then we have an old schoolhouse bell from the 1910 schoolhouse. And that was given to us by William Carroll, who was quite a character. He ran the Outlook Newspaper. He bought the 1910 schoolhouse in the [19]60s and restored it as his newspaper office. He relocated it on Grand Avenue and it's still standing. But he left town in the nineties and moved to New Mexico and then Arcata, California. And once he got settled up there, he contacted us and said, “I'm going to give you the bell, but you have to come and get it.” So, it's a pretty far drive up there. And the thing weighs over two hundred and fifty pounds. So luckily, we were able to find someone who was making the trip down that would deliver it to us. So, we have the original bell from the 1910 schoolhouse in our museum. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 6 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: That's wonderful. Brown: Yeah. One last thing is our museum and building itself is pretty special in that it was built in 1939 by a grant for three thousand two hundred dollars, but it was built by the WPA, which is the Works Progress Administration under Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal. And so that was kind of the tail end of the WPA projects. And so, we provided the money for the supplies, but the government would actually supply the workers and pay the workers to complete the work. So, our museum today is one of those projects from the WPA back in 1939. Friedman: That's a great story. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: Wow. You mentioned how are a volunteer-run organization. How do you think the community of your organization and San Marcos in general have contributed to the preservation of the history of San Marcos? Brown: Hmm. Well. I guess one of the things that I'm thinking about in addition to the legacy that we leave is that the pandemic has helped me understand that sometimes you can't wait for people to come to you because we were closed so much of the time during the pandemic that a lot of our programs, a lot of our volunteers, you know, we didn't have them anymore. So, recently, I was on a trip up in Washington state and walking along some of the trails up there are these beautiful displays that show a picture of--you're looking at a building across the lake, but you're seeing a photo of what it was like in 1920 or something like that. And it’s called--the little caption underneath is called Trail Tales. And so, it occurred to me that we really do need to take history out to the public. And, not just on special occasions, when I go out to do a presentation or somebody calls the Historical Society. But just for anybody who's maybe going out for a walk. So, that is one of the things that I'd like to see us do as a city and just community activity is to identify some of these areas that have changed so much over the years and have a then-and-now photo, or a description of what they're looking at, what it used to look like back in the 1920s or in 1890s. So that we just don't get used to thinking that this is the way it's always been, and this is the way it'll always be that there was something before that--what you're seeing today. Friedman: How would you like to, I guess, bring awareness to kind of that issue? Brown: Well, I guess one of the things that we have to do is as, you know, try to work with maybe developers of new projects and have them incorporate some of these Trail Tales or historical icons, so that you can, actually, from the ground level, add that to the aesthetic of whatever's being built today. I mean, maybe we could start at Cal State University and have a photo of the Prohoroff Poultry Farm, (laughs) I don't know, but, there are endless possibilities here in San Marcos. And I was just thinking-there's a new Costco along San Marcos Boulevard and that--where those buildings were airports here in San Marcos, which I'm sure not too many people know about that we had two airports here in San Marcos. So, Julia, you pose a good question. It always requires a little leg work talking just to the right people and getting people excited about things. Friedman: I would like to see that happen someday. I—(laughs) Brown: Maybe we can work together. (laughs) Transcribed by Julia Friedman 7 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: Ooh, I like that. I guess see that as a project, as an exhibit. I could see that as many things. I'm excited. I hope to see that someday. (laughs) Brown: I would love that. Friedman: How have you seen your organization grow over the years? Brown: The Historical Society? Friedman: Yeah. Brown: Historical societies, or at least ours, has not grown. It has dwindled. I think a lot of—and hopefully that is not the--or it's changed, I guess. I think there are less and less, not opportunities, but there are less and less people that get actively involved in volunteerism as much as I remember growing up. Or at least back in the [19]80s, because most people would retire, you know, between fifty-eight, sixty-five [years old], and then they would dedicate a few years to a civic organization. In talking with other historical societies in North County, groups like Kiwanis [Kiwanis International] and Rotary [San Diego Rotary], I've noticed a kind of a steady decline in those memberships. And I don't think it's because people aren't equally as busy now as they used to be, but their time is spent differently than it maybe had been in the past. And I don't know. I think my generation of people, or maybe it's just me, I tend to be a joiner. I like doing stuff with other people because I think more gets accomplished. But that's a good question. Something, I think about a lot in terms of, you know, again, what happens if our volunteers, you know, we don't have as many people that are as interested in our future or our history and moving it forward. So, my big hope is kids as all, as we like to make sure that they think history is something important and to be cherished. Friedman: How do you like to reach out to school groups? Do you have like a school program? Do you have special exhibits for that? Brown: We have, prior to COVID, we had a pretty flourishing hands-on history program for elementary students and for the primary students, they would come out to Heritage Park and participate in kind of a round robin of activities. We'd have five different activities that they would participate in. They would learn about the Native American community that lived here in San Marcos. They would take a tour of two historical houses. They would learn a craft of what kids did one hundred and twenty years ago. What kind of crafts did they do? What kind of things did they have to work with? “Did they have markers? No.” (laughs) So we do a little activity like that. We do games that kids played with pine cones and old equipment and things like that that are kind of made-up games. And then we do chores. So, they do outdoor laundry in the tub. They wash the clothes, they plant in the garden and they make biscuits and butter from scratch. So, and then at the end of the session, we get to taste the butter that we have made. So it's really about, “What was life like in San Marcos back in 1890?” And so, kids get a chance to kind of see--we partner with the Vallecitos Water District, who's very gracious to help bust the students out to Heritage Park. And then they also do a little session on water conservation. And it blends right into our concept of, you know, how did people wash their clothes and wash their dishes and where did they go to the bathroom and take a bath when there were no inside restrooms? So, it's kind of an ecology lesson as well as a sustainability lesson, but also a history lesson as well. Friedman: Those sound really exciting. My next question I realize can pertain both to, I guess, lack of volunteers and also children's education. I didn't realize it pertained to what we just spoke about Transcribed by Julia Friedman 8 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 previously, but what would you like future historians to understand about lack of funding in both education and the nonprofit sphere? Brown: Well, I guess, you know, my family, both my husband and my fathers were both elementary school principals. So we’ve been in involved with public schools our whole lives, and supportive of what public schools do and taking advantage of just amazing teachers and, you know, people who give so much to help our kids learn. And I just think that, in today's world, the things that we celebrate and invest in, while they are important, to know about, I just wish as much money could be invested into education. And I'm not just talking about K-12, I'm talking about higher education and as well. I'm a strong believer in lifelong learning and, you know, education, libraries, civic organizations are really the things that provide a huge quality of life in our community. And, you know, it, pains me a little that so much money goes into sports, and I'm not against sports, or other things that people are high ticket items, that don't end up with a lot of bang for your buck. And I just think, that it's something that we all share and we can always make better. I know there's been a lot of, you know, down talking schools as a result of the last couple of years, and I just, feel bad that teachers kind of take a brunt of stuff and just trying to do the best I can every day. Friedman: Why do you think lack of funding could be so detrimental to the preservation and understanding of history? Brown: Well, I think, I mean, history tells a lot about where we go, and where we've been. And there are, I believe, cycles that come around. But I do think, you know, again, one of the things that excites me is that I get a lot of newsletters from schools and organizations just like Cal State San Marcos. I get the update of all the cool things that are going on on the campus on a weekly basis. And I compare that with the, you know, what's on the news every night, which is kind of depressing. And I'm thinking, “Why aren't we covering all these amazing things that are going on in the local schools?” And not just Cal State San Marcos or in our local schools, but a citywide and regionwide. I mean, students are just doing some amazing things but when there's not a lot of money to support those kinds of things, it does really affect, especially, those who are not--don't have the life experience to know that you can go to a free museum, or, you know, there are free things. And I do think that educational opportunities through schools provide a lot of awareness about ways to do things that don't cost a lot of money or that are enrichment activities through the classrooms. So, and it takes money to pay for that stuff. Friedman: Yeah. That's well said. What do you think these nonprofits need to do in order to survive during these difficult times? Brown: Stick together, I guess. (laughs) Well, you know what, you do what you can do. And, you know, I'm an advocate. I don't like to, you know, diss people for what they're not doing, but really, try to appreciate people for what they do do. And, you know, make the most of it. I think April is Volunteer Month and, you know, volunteering isn't going to happen if people go and they're not enjoying it, or they're not getting some kind of reward out of it. And I think that's, you know, we need to always kind of invest in our volunteers in terms of making sure that they are able to engage in the things they like to do when they come out and volunteer. But, the Historical Society--our members--we participate in a bigger group called CINCH [Council for the Interpretation of North County History], which is all the North County historical societies. We gather four times a year just to share ideas and, you know, tips and what they're doing. And you never know when you're going to get a really good idea from somebody that turns out to be lucrative. And then I'm always looking for partnerships. I'm always looking to work with Transcribed by Julia Friedman 9 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 our agencies, our city. We're so lucky to be able to be in our city park. So we have people that come out to the park and walk by and try to talk to people that come by, invite them in. So yeah, I mean, that's my approach and I guess have grant writers that will help find the money and put it in our hands. (laughs) Friedman: That's always important. I would like to jump back a bit to San Marco Marcos’ history. Brown: Okay. Friedman: From your experience working at the San Marcos Historical Society, who do you believe are some significant historical individuals in San Marcos history, such as prominent individuals or famous families? Brown: Okay. Well, the original home--well, first of all, the Twin Oaks area is primarily--was one of the settlement areas for the Luiseño tribe. And, well, I don't have access to direct descendants of those--the mission band of Luiseño Indians are really the kind of the original homesteaders there in the Twin Oaks Valley. So, I think that we should always recognize that, you know, somebody was here before the first covered wagons came or anything like that. And then our Rancho period was very short in San Marcos. So, the first, like homesteader families that are still European homesteader families are the Merriam family. And there are a few of them still living and in this area. The Uhlands have a huge connection, not only to Heritage Park, but the whole Twin Oaks Valley area. And there are still Uhlands family members in town. The Fultons, and a lot of these, like the Fultons, the Bordens, the Barhams--those are all San Marcos street names. So, you don't have to go too far to recognize that those families have had their own streets named after them. But we recently lost the original homestead of a Fulton family, which is very sad. They had a homestead at in San Marcos in 1893, and the last family member that had lived on the homestead, moved to Nebraska last fall. So, from 1893 to 2021, was inhabited by one family. And then also out here in Twin Oaks the Astleford family were only one of two families that owned property here in Twin Oaks Valley. I mentioned William Webster Borden, the Barhams. In the Richland area, there was another Borden, Reynold Bascom Borden his house is still standing in the Richland area. So, we have, you know, again, a number of families. Friedman: That's really interesting. Are there also any individuals from San Marcos history that not as well known that we should know about such as individuals from marginalized communities? Brown: Well, actually, this is kind of interesting. Several years ago we took a world map and tried to chart all the places that, you know, people that had moved to San Marcos, where they had come from. And, while, one of the things that we realized is that we had had a very large community of Serbian and Yugoslavian families that moved to San Marcos. The Prohoroffs were originally from Russia. They moved to Mexico and then migrated up through Mexico to Southern California. We do have, we have Meadowlark Cemetery that is off Rancho Santa Fe Road. It was a pioneer cemetery over on the West end of San Marcos. And there are several homesteaders there that, you know, were there prior, between the 1850s, 1870. I'm trying to think of other--of course, you know, I look at photos of early San Marcos. We had Japanese, we had a lot of Japanese farmers that had to leave during World War II. We have a lot of Hispanic families that have come and gone through San Marcos. And usually, we will meet those people that will come to the museum that, you know, their grandparents worked at Prohoroff Ranch or in the, one of the farms here in San Marcos. But they don't live here anymore. And so, we don't have the longevity of their history. But I'm always anxious to, you know, find out some of those kind of stories that, have lived on. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 10 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: That's really interesting. Thank you. Brown: Julia. I need to get a drink. Friedman: Oh, sure. Brown: Can we stop for a minute? Friedman: Yeah, absolutely. So interview with Tanis Brown paused at 11:01. Interview with Tanis Brown resumed at 11:02. If you were to interview someone from San Marcos for an oral history interview, who would be, and why? Brown: Well, we have captured a lot of, kind of the old timey history in San Marcos from the 1800s, 1900s. But I am interested in working with people that maybe are in their sixties that have gone through the entire San Marcos school district, or actually moved here as young children and watched San Marcos grow. As an adult, I’m pretty aware of that, you know, kind of the development of the city. But it would be interesting to get a sense of a student’s perspective as they have grown. And now are adults and their take on San Marco’s history, kind of the next gen[eration] of history for the future. I mean, we have a lot of, you know, kind of more recently women in politics. And I would like to interview Pia Harris [San Marcos' first female council member], Rebecca Jones [San Marcos Mayor at time of recording], and also some of our city employees who have just an amazing background of knowledge of how things came to be. Friedman: I like that. Those are really interesting people to interview. How have you seen the city of San Marcos develop over the last forty years? Brown: (laughs) Well, when my kids first walked to school in San Marcos in 1976, Woodland Park was an elementary school. It's now a middle school. And it was built in the seventies when there was really very little money for new schools. But it was an open school. So, there were no dividers. And the only dividers in the school were short bookcases. And when we walked down to meet the principal before school started, he was standing on a ladder in the very center of the building, looking around at all the-where the classrooms would be. And, we just kind of thought, “Oh my gosh.” It was very interesting, but on the way, walking to school, our children had--we had to skirt a pasture to get to school. We don't see that so much anymore. So those were kind of our first, you know, memories of moving to San Marcos and, really being in a rural community that neither my husband or I had ever felt so close to a rural atmosphere. To, you know, watching the university get built to watching buildings get moved and relocated for the city hall complex. For--certainly traffic is very different. There were no traffic signals in San Marcos until 1974. There was one four-way stop at Mission Empico Road when I was going to Palomar College. So that four-way stop on the first day school could get really crazy. But the thing that I feel kind of most proud about is that we really established, many years ago, that San Marcos would keep a quality of life through parks, open spaces, and trails, so that if you wanted to ride a bicycle from one end of town to the other, or to visit a park, there would be one in your neighborhood and you would have a connection to that. So that part of the growth of San Marcos, I think, is going to pay off in the long run as we continue to develop new neighborhoods like North City and still keeping a quality of life, as well as accommodating people who want to live here. And that doesn't mean just a certain, you know, type of person. We need to keep are community a blended community. So young people, old people, any stripe of person can move to San Marcos, find a home, and a connection. And I think Transcribed by Julia Friedman 11 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 between city, and the organizations, and the resources that we have is that we want to be a welcoming place for anybody who comes to San Marcos. Yeah. Friedman: Thank you. What to you makes San Marcos and San Marcos history so fascinating to study? Brown: Well, I just like the idea that you can, you know, you can create things. I think people come to different communities. Something usually draws them to an area. Like even as back as the first tribal communities, they found what was going to meet their needs: water, flat land, access to food, and shelter. And, I think people are still doing that. They're looking for something that meets their needs. And so I think as we move forward that it's our responsibility to make sure that we provide opportunities for people that come here. I'm not sure I answered that question very well. Friedman: No you did, thank you. And what do you think is so important or what is important about understanding local history? Brown: Okay. Well, I think, I mean, history's human. I mean, you know, a lot of people say, and we always have to second guess ourselves, because the minute you put something down on paper and then somebody--and it's written and somebody'll say, “Well, that isn’t the way I remember it.” So, there's so much humanity in history and it's how we, you know, how we look at it and maybe our opinion of that history changes. But it is. And there isn't just one history, you know. We all make our own history. And so, but I do think--I love the opportunity that we have, at least that I have, and that we're willing to share about information that people felt was important enough to document back in the 1880s or [18]90s, and may have some relevance for us today. We recently were going through the Fulton papers, which we’re archiving, and we found a reference in a letter about the 1916 flood that was here in San Marcos, which we have a photo of in our museum. And that same letter also referenced the pandemic in 1918. So, to me, and it's like, “Oh my gosh,” because we didn't, well, we weren't necessarily looking for it, as it related to San Marcos, but when we saw it, it was like, “Oh my gosh,” it talked about this lady who was willing to go over and help her neighbors out who had the Spanish Flu. And so here it was right here in San Marcos. And I don't know, that just to me create some kind of bond between people from 1918 that were right here in the same neighborhood or in the same place that we were, or we are now. And, so I don't know. That's just so exciting to me that a hundred years ago they were experiencing kind of the same thing and not exactly knowing how to deal with it. So, not that much has changed in spite of all the cars, in spite of all the buildings, not that much has changed. We're still people. And that's what I think history is really about people's stories. Friedman: Well, thank you so much, Tanis. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else you'd like to share today? Brown: Well, I would just like to say that, whoever is viewing this video is welcome to come out and visit Heritage Park in Walnut Grove Park. And, we welcome and would love to share history with you. Friedman: Very well said. Well, thank you. It was a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you so much for being part of this project. Brown: Well, I'm really happy to--I wasn't expecting to do that. I was expecting to share other people's names, but I'm happy to have shared my history with you. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 12 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: Thank you. We're so happy that you are a part of this project and we're so happy to have your story become a part of our collection. Brown: Great. Me too. Friedman: Well, thank you. Brown: Okay. So is that, is that it. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 13 2023-02-22 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brown, Tanis. Interview transcript. April 13, 2022. Description An account of the resource Tanis Brown is the President of the San Marcos Historical Society and is involved in many local history projects and educational outreach initiatives. In this interview, Tanis discusses her involvement in the city of San Marcos, CA since the 1970s. Tanis quickly became active in the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce and was among the first group of students to enroll in California State University San Marcos. A few years later, she became an employee of CSUSM, establishing the university’s first housing program and working in human resources. Now as President of the San Marcos Historical Society, Tanis is passionate about sharing San Marcos’ local history with her community and with future generations. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tanis Brown Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-13 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos San Marcos (Calif.) -- History San Marcos Historical Society -- California -- San Marcos Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Tanis Brown License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-20 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Julia Friedman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tanis Brown OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BrownTanis_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-13.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Unknown Date Oral history of Tanis Brown, April 13, 2022 SC027-20 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. California State University San Marcos San Marcos (Calif.) -- History San Marcos Historical Society -- California -- San Marcos Tanis Brown Julia Friedman BrownTanis_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-13.mp4 1:|16(5)|27(8)|42(8)|51(1)|62(5)|70(10)|81(6)|88(14)|99(9)|108(14)|120(12)|134(9)|142(8)|153(6)|160(6)|174(3)|181(10)|188(9)|197(10)|205(9)|213(13)|224(4)|236(5)|242(6)|252(3)|261(5)|270(14)|279(5)|289(12)|300(5)|306(16)|315(2)|324(1)|329(14)|336(10)|344(4)|354(10)|366(15)|374(2)|381(3)|392(1)|404(14)|419(1)|427(2)|437(4)|445(2)|452(10)|464(2)|469(5)|476(9)|486(11)|494(8)|503(7)|512(3)|520(16)|535(1)|542(3)|548(6)|554(3)|563(15)|569(6)|573(12)|589(7)|597(2)|605(7)|614(1)|620(7)|626(5)|633(13)|643(10)|651(14)|659(15)|666(10)|674(3)|686(2) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/3b6624b33deba86cb7ceb886c3d6cec2.mp4 Other video 0 Moving to San Marcos, CA / Involvement in the San Marcos Community Julia Friedman: Today is Wednesday, April 13th, 2022, at 9:58 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Tanis Brown for the University Library Special Collections Oral History project. Tanis, thank you for being here with me today. Tanis Brown: Oh, thank you. Hang on just a minute. I have to—all right. Friedman: Perfect. I would like to start by discussing your early days in the city of San Marcos, California. Why did you first move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, I first came to San Marcos in 1976 in the kind of summertime. We moved to San Marcos from Escondido. Friedman: And why did you move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, my husband and I had kind of outgrown our house in Escondido and we were looking—he was looking for a little more yard space so he could start to garden. And so, we were looking for a little bit larger house with a little more backyard. Friedman: And what were your first impressions of the city? Brown: Well, when we were looking at houses, I can remember my husband telling the realtor, “I'm not sure we want to live in San Marcos. It's kind of the boonies, isn't it?” And, at that time, San Marcos was certainly not the city it is today. It was a lot more rural. Many, many mobile home parks, about twelve if I remember correctly. Only four to five elementary schools and we had two children in school, so we were looking for, you know, a close-by school and again. So, taking some choices about, well, do we want a little bit bigger yard or do we want to stay in a more developed city, like Escondido? And I'm certainly glad that we opted to move to San Marcos. Friedman: That's great. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: How did you first become involved in the community of San Marcos during your first years in the city? Brown: Okay, so, right after we moved to San Marcos, I enrolled in an early childhood development course at Palomar college. I had been teaching preschool for a number of years and the first night of class, the teacher said the city of San Marcos is looking for a preschool teacher for their Raggedy Anne and Andy Program, which was very popular. It was expanding at that time. And so, I went the next day and put in an application and ended up getting a job with the city right away within the first couple of months. And so, it was a wonderful opportunity to meet people that worked for the city. Our location was where San Marcos City Hall is now, but the building was the red barn that is now located at Walnut Grove Park, that was where all the city recreation programs were hosted out of. That was the main office for our park and recreation program. So, I started working for the Raggedy Anne and Andy Program and was able to meet a lot of people that worked for the city at that time. And that was kind of our first introduction. And because we were such a small community, a couple of the city council people had their children enrolled in our ragged Anne and Andy program. So immediately, I met two or three city council people and through their children. So that's kind of our quick introduction. And I remember thinking, “Oh my gosh, I grew up in San Diego. I never ever knew anybody who's elected to anything.” And here we are, serving, the city council members’ children. So, it was a very close connection to the local government. Friedman: Have you remained within those organizations? Brown: Yes. So, in addition, I only were worked for the city for about a little bit over a year because, we lived overseas shortly after that, but when I came back, I had already been familiar with the park and recreation program. So, I applied to be a commissioner for the park and recreation program, which is an advisory commission for the city of San Marcos, overseeing the parks and recreation. And I was appointed to that and it was a perfect timing because the city was growing quite a bit and we were developing new parks. So, we went from three parks to eight parks to twelve parks, and I ended up sitting on that commission for over twenty years. So, it was really a great time to watch the city not only develop, but also plan for open space, parks, trails, that kept up with the development of additional housing. Tanis Brown describes why her family moved to San Marcos, CA and how she first became involved in the community. Advisory commission ; Education ; Parks and Recreation ; San Marcos (Calif.) 377 Experience as Member of First Graduating Class at CSUSM Friedman: That's wonderful. Oh my goodness. So, you really saw the city expand in just your first few years in San Marcos. And then shortly after, you enrolled in Cal State San Marcos [California State University San Marcos]. You were among the first class to enroll in 1989. Why did you decide to attend the university? Brown: (laughs) Well, my other--one of the other hats that I have worn for many years is the San Marcos Historical Society. And through that organization, I got to be involved with the Chamber of Commerce. We had a reciprocal agreement and I was attending a lot of Chamber events, and I was lucky enough to meet Richard Rush, who was the Dean of the North San Diego campus at that time. And he kept talking about, you know, they were going to have, well at one point, it was going to be a San Diego State satellite campus up in North County. And, you know, just a lot about that. So, I got to know him fairly well. And then, in 1989, when San Marcos was going to be the host city for the university, I thought, “Well, I better get in on the ground floor of this.” So, I applied to go take all my many, many undergraduate units and apply them towards a degree. All my kids were now in school. Perfect timing. So, I applied to go to be in the first graduating class of Cal State San Marcos. So, it was wonderful. And I can remember in my first--one of my first classes on the first day, Dick Rush came in and waved, sat and waved out the window. So it was, it was like, “Oh, this is great, this feels like home.” So, it was--it was very comfortable. Friedman: Oh, that's wonderful. Because I understand that the original campus was a storefront property while the permanent one was being built across town. Can you discuss what it was like attending CSUSM [California State University San Marcos] during those early days as a university? Brown: Yes, we called it Cal State Jerome’s [CSUSM was located near to a Jerome’s furniture store] and we were in industrial park and, there were very few classes. I remember we didn't have a full compliment of majors like we do now. And the first several years of campus life were only upper-class juniors and seniors, as well as teaching programs. So, we had only upper division classes and every semester there were only so many classes for each department. So pretty much everybody who was in one class was in all your classes together, depending on what your major was. So, we really got to know one another and there was a lot of camaraderie between the faculty, the students, the staff, because we were all about the same age. The average age of students in the first few years of Cal State San Marcos was thirty-nine years old. So, you can imagine that, we--some of us were older than our faculty members, our professors, and certainly had a lot of a local experience. But most people, it was most certainly a commuter campus. There wasn't much campus life. Friedman: What did you major in? Brown: Well, I was an English major with a minor in women's studies. Friedman: That's great. And how many students were enrolled in your cohort, or in your class? Brown: I think our first graduating class was between ninety and ninety-five, something like that. So, we all fit in Craven Circle, in three rows of chairs, just about. Friedman: I was actually expecting it to be a little smaller, but that's actually really interesting. Could you elaborate a little more on the comradery amongst your classmates? Kind of like, what was the culture like in general within your cohort? Brown: Well, like I say, most students were, you know, adults who have lots of other stuff going on. Most people were working, or parents, or involved in community activities or especially jobs. We were all [reentering]--most of us were reentry students. And so, in addition to taking classes, we had other things going on in our lives. So, it was a little bit challenging. I know when we started to try to talk about having student groups and all that. But once again, we--there was a deli in the industrial park called the Full Belly Deli. A lot of people would go there for lunch if they were able to be on campus for a whole day. Usually people came and went. It was very kind of a drive-by campus if you will, you know. People were there because there were not gathering places. So, we did try. We had powwows. Bonnie Biggs, who was the dean of the library at that time, brought in a lot of musical performances and it was really enriching and exposed us to a lot of, you know, great music. And like I say, we were involved with the Native American tribal community in the North County and so we hosted a powwow. So those were things that were also included as part of our school requirements to, you know, get involved in these international things that were going on campus. Friedman: That's great. And from what I understand, there were already some student organizations established on campus, such as ASI--? Brown: Well, no, the first year, Dr. Ernie Zomalt who's the Executive Vice President and Sandy Punch, who was doing student affairs, really helped form the first group for an election for the first Associated Students. And I had just had a conversation with Charles Ragland who is one of the former ASI presidents back in the early years. And, the first couple of years we did have the Associated Students, but it wasn't an incorporation, it was just a campus organization. We did vote and we did actually vote for some student fees. But yeah, so we did have an election and I was on the first Associated Students group and we did a lot of the heavy lifting of bylaw writing and that kind of thing, as well as trying to establish some kind of connection between students and trying to encourage them to think about imposing fees that would not necessarily impact them at all, but would impact the future of the university. Friedman: Thank you for clearing that up. Brown: Yeah. Tanis Brown recounts her experience as a student in the first graduating class at California State San Marcos when she enrolled in 1989. Tanis discusses the culture on campus, the class sizes, and the formation of the first Associated Students. California State University San Marcos ; Education ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; University ; University and community 942 Working at CSUSM Friedman: That's really interesting. And then as I understand it, you later became an employee a few years after graduating at CSUSM. Can you explain those roles that that you worked at CSUSM? Brown: Sure. So, after I graduated, I went to work for a social service agency in Vista Lifeline Community Services. And I was a grant writer there for about a year and a half. In the meantime, the campus had grown and were about to launch a (laughs) full four-year student body. And so, all of a sudden housing was needed. And because of my relationship with, you know, kind of the community, I had a lot of access to, you know, where to rent an apartment or this and that. I knew a lot of community members, my, you know, just community contacts. And so, I applied for a job with the university to be a Special Projects Coordinator in the Vice President's office. So, I went back and worked part-time, doing special projects. And then that job got extended to fifty percent of also housing and trying to not only help faculty members find housing, but also to help students find housing. And then actually starting the first housing program at Cal State San Marcos. So that was that became a bigger and bigger job (laughs) because we didn't have a facility. So, we had to go out and find housing. We had to find suitable housing for a group of students so that we could, you know, kind of cluster them together and create opportunities that would be quasi student life. And it was, it was a very interesting endeavor. (laughs) Friedman: It's important though. From what I understand, you also were involved in HR for many years and in the Retirees Association. Could you explain a little bit about your roles in those departments as well? Brown: Sure. So, I moved over to Human Resources as the Training Coordinator and my job was to provide training opportunities for staff and also develop a new employee orientation. So, I had the really fun job in Human Resources. I was kind of known as the “cheerleader” because in addition to training opportunities, one of the things that I really enjoyed doing was at the end of every year, we would do an employee recognition. This was before they had employee the month or anything like that. So once a year we would have an event that would recognize employees for their years of service. And just to, you know, just to thank employees for being on campus. In the early years, people moved around a lot just because of the growing campus. And so, there was a lot of expectation that don't get too used to the office that you're sitting in because six months now you may be moving to another office down the hallway. So, it was just a way to recognize, and I think the, you know, all the managers and leadership at the university really recognized how so many of the employees got called on to do things that they never expected to do when they were hired, just because we were a new campus and something new would come up and we just have to do it. And, we were very limited in staff. We didn't have three or four people in an office, but it was great. People enjoyed one another. And I have wonderful friends that I made at Cal State San Marcos, and it's carried over to the Retirees Association as well. So, and the other thing I loved about my job with orientation is that I got to meet everybody that was a new employee at the campus. So, I was kind of the face of HR, I believe, for many years, in terms of, you know, within their first couple of weeks of work, they were going to spend a day with me and I was going to kind of show the ropes of Cal State San Marcos. Later on, a lot of my job required a lot of compliance training as well, sexual harassment, and a lot of things like that in addition to the kind of enrichment training. Friedman: Well, thank you. So much of what you did as a student and as an employee at CSUSM seemed to involve community on campus. How did you see the CSUSM community develop over time? Brown: Are you talking about the campus community? Friedman: Oh, yes. Sorry. Yes. Brown: Okay. Well, I visited campus yesterday and we walked through the dome and in the olden days, the dome was the only really gathering place on campus. So, if you worked in Craven Hall you had to walk through the dome from the parking lot and so you pass through it, it was the place that you could eat your lunch. And usually you'd always see somebody you knew in the dome. So, there were those opportunities to make friends. And some of the employees at actually were also taking classes while they were working at Cal State San Marcos. So, it was an opportunity for just meeting and getting to know one another. But, you know, I still get that same feel just when I've been on campus other times that, people are anxious to help, they are anxious to reach out. And even the President was pretty accessible when I was there. You know, Dr. Haynes was primarily the longest serving President when I was at Cal State San Marcos and she'd be out and about on campus. And, it was, it was really great to see, you know, to know that the President was walking around, seeing what was going on as well. So, and I still get that feeling that there's a lot of opportunity for meeting and greeting it at the university. Tanis Brown discusses working as an employee at CSUSM. She describes her work as the Special Projects Coordinator in the Vice President’s office where she aided students and faculty in finding housing near the campus area. She later worked in Human Resources as the Training Coordinator. California State University San Marcos ; Education ; Housing projects ; Human resources ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; University ; University and community 1479 Involvement in the San Marcos Historical Society (SMHS) / SMHS Archives Friedman: That's wonderful. I would like to jump ahead now, or I suppose, change topics. You had mentioned that when you were a student at Cal State San Marcos, you were already involved in the San Marcos Historical Society. When did you first become involved in the organization? Brown: Well, as I mentioned early on, we moved to San Marcos and within the first eighteen months, my husband had an opportunity to go overseas and teach at a military facility. So, we moved to Germany. We rented out our house and bundled up our family and moved to Germany for two years. And while I was there, I was not working. And so, I just fell in love with history. And there, you know, Europe is a little bit older than Southern California (laughs), and I just really latched onto history. And within about a month of us coming back and getting resettled into our house, I was walking in the neighborhood and realized that we had a historical house at the top of a hill, not far from where I live and it was being vandalized. So, I contacted the city and I said, “Somebody needs to do something about this, because we don't have very many historical houses in San Marcos.” What's, you know, who owns it and trying to get to the bottom of that. Anyway, the city manager at the time recommended that I contact the Historical Society and they could tell me a little bit more the house, but in the meantime, they were going to check it out and they did follow up and say, “Oh, the house has just been purchased and they are planning to renovate it.” So, that was a good opportunity for something good to happen. But I did visit the Historical Society shortly after that and was privileged to meet several families of, you know, descendants of the pioneer families that lived here in San Marcos. So, I don't know all the old timers but kind of the second generation of old timers. And I just was amazed at the, you know, what a small town San Marcos had, but what a rich history it had, which I'm still marveling at that every day. So, yes. So, they kind of adopted me. I was quite a bit younger than anybody who was serving at the Historical Society at that time and just had an opportunity to meet some wonderful people who could tell me great stories about the history of San Marcos. And so, I got involved there and just continued to stay involved for a number of years, and then took a hiatus when I went back to school. And so then jump forward twenty years after I retired and my husband and I traveled for a few years and then came back and the Historical Society was going to be relocating their museum. And that's the time I kind of stepped up and said, “Sure, I can help.” And, so that was in 2009 and I'm still there. (Brown and Friedman laugh) Friedman: Is that when you became President or were you [unintelligible]? Brown: Yeah, I have been the President for a very long time. But yes, but we have a really wonderful group of not so many of the pioneer families are left here in San Marcos. But we do have a steadfast group of volunteers that help out. We established a hands-on history program and we've had a lot of Cal State San Marcos students. Want to find out about that. That are going into the teaching program. And we've also had a few internships and I've been able to connect with the, uh, we are a community partner through the community service learning program at Cal State San Marcos. Friedman: What has been your goal as present of the historical society? Brown: Oh my gosh. Well, moving forward, thinking about where we need to be in the future is first and foremost, we have two historical houses that will always need a lot of tender love and care and upkeep because they were built at the end of the nineteenth century, so they're quite old. So establishing an endowment fund for the houses to keep them and other historical houses in perpetuity or as long as they can stand. We also have--my immediate project is a fire engine that I'm trying to get fixed up so we can add it to our hands-on history program. And then, of course, the wonderful thing that we have is the documentation of our history and our archives. And I am blessed to be able to work with Sean [Visintainer] and Jennifer Ho on establishing a really good archival program for our records in the hope that they would be worthy of someone's collection at some point if anything should happen to the Historical Society. So, just kind of laying the foundation for the future, kind of the “what ifs” and “what would happen if” and “how might we continue to preserve these things.” Friedman: That's wonderful. That's very smart. You always need to be thinking forward for your archive collection. Going to your archive, do you have any gems in the archive that you would like to talk about or share? Brown: We have a couple things that are pretty special. So, in the early years of first establishing San Marcos, there were three distinct communities. There was the Twin Oaks area out on the Northeastern side of San Marcos. There was the area known as Richland, which is kind of the center of town and where Cal State San Marcos is. And then on the West end, there was a community known as Barham township. And Barham township today is kind of right on the border of San Marcos and Encinitas. And there was a gentleman named William Webster Borden, and William Webster Borden was the postmaster. He wrote the first newspaper that we have documented called The Plain Truth. And it was postmarked from Barham, California. Anyway, his great-great-grandson delivered to us William Webster Borden’s type desk, which is a tall chest that contains all the little letters to make a newspaper, the individual letters. And so, we are pleased to have William Webster Borden’s type desk. Another thing that we have inherited from that area, there used to be Meadowlark Ranch that was off Rancho Santa Fe Road. And we have the corral gate from Meadowlark Ranch that was taken down in the 1950s. And it is barely standing, but we have figured it up on our backyard so people can have a chance to see that. And then we have an old schoolhouse bell from the 1910 schoolhouse. And that was given to us by William Carroll, who was quite a character. He ran the Outlook Newspaper. He bought the 1910 schoolhouse in the [19]60s and restored it as his newspaper office. He relocated it on Grand Avenue and it's still standing. But he left town in the nineties and moved to New Mexico and then Arcata, California. And once he got settled up there, he contacted us and said, “I'm going to give you the bell, but you have to come and get it.” So, it's a pretty far drive up there. And the thing weighs over two hundred and fifty pounds. So luckily, we were able to find someone who was making the trip down that would deliver it to us. So, we have the original bell from the 1910 schoolhouse in our museum. Friedman: That's wonderful. Brown: Yeah. One last thing is our museum and building itself is pretty special in that it was built in 1939 by a grant for three thousand two hundred dollars, but it was built by the WPA, which is the Works Progress Administration under Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal. And so that was kind of the tail end of the WPA projects. And so, we provided the money for the supplies, but the government would actually supply the workers and pay the workers to complete the work. So, our museum today is one of those projects from the WPA back in 1939. Friedman: That's a great story. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: Wow. You mentioned how are a volunteer-run organization. How do you think the community of your organization and San Marcos in general have contributed to the preservation of the history of San Marcos? Brown: Hmm. Well. I guess one of the things that I'm thinking about in addition to the legacy that we leave is that the pandemic has helped me understand that sometimes you can't wait for people to come to you because we were closed so much of the time during the pandemic that a lot of our programs, a lot of our volunteers, you know, we didn't have them anymore. So, recently, I was on a trip up in Washington state and walking along some of the trails up there are these beautiful displays that show a picture of--you're looking at a building across the lake, but you're seeing a photo of what it was like in 1920 or something like that. And it’s called--the little caption underneath is called Trail Tales. And so, it occurred to me that we really do need to take history out to the public. And, not just on special occasions, when I go out to do a presentation or somebody calls the Historical Society. But just for anybody who's maybe going out for a walk. So, that is one of the things that I'd like to see us do as a city and just community activity is to identify some of these areas that have changed so much over the years and have a then-and-now photo, or a description of what they're looking at, what it used to look like back in the 1920s or in 1890s. So that we just don't get used to thinking that this is the way it's always been, and this is the way it'll always be that there was something before that--what you're seeing today. Friedman: How would you like to, I guess, bring awareness to kind of that issue? Brown: Well, I guess one of the things that we have to do is as, you know, try to work with maybe developers of new projects and have them incorporate some of these Trail Tales or historical icons, so that you can, actually, from the ground level, add that to the aesthetic of whatever's being built today. I mean, maybe we could start at Cal State University and have a photo of the Prohoroff Poultry Farm, (laughs) I don't know, but, there are endless possibilities here in San Marcos. And I was just thinking-- there's a new Costco along San Marcos Boulevard and that--where those buildings were airports here in San Marcos, which I'm sure not too many people know about that we had two airports here in San Marcos. So, Julia, you pose a good question. It always requires a little leg work talking just to the right people and getting people excited about things. Friedman: I would like to see that happen someday. I—(laughs) Brown: Maybe we can work together. (laughs) Friedman: Ooh, I like that. I guess see that as a project, as an exhibit. I could see that as many things. I'm excited. I hope to see that someday. (laughs) Brown: I would love that. Friedman: How have you seen your organization grow over the years? Brown: The Historical Society? Friedman: Yeah. Brown: Historical societies, or at least ours, has not grown. It has dwindled. I think a lot of—and hopefully that is not the--or it's changed, I guess. I think there are less and less, not opportunities, but there are less and less people that get actively involved in volunteerism as much as I remember growing up. Or at least back in the [19]80s, because most people would retire, you know, between fifty-eight, sixty-five [years old], and then they would dedicate a few years to a civic organization. In talking with other historical societies in North County, groups like Kiwanis [Kiwanis International] and Rotary [San Diego Rotary], I've noticed a kind of a steady decline in those memberships. And I don't think it's because people aren't equally as busy now as they used to be, but their time is spent differently than it maybe had been in the past. And I don't know. I think my generation of people, or maybe it's just me, I tend to be a joiner. I like doing stuff with other people because I think more gets accomplished. But that's a good question. Something, I think about a lot in terms of, you know, again, what happens if our volunteers, you know, we don't have as many people that are as interested in our future or our history and moving it forward. So, my big hope is kids as all, as we like to make sure that they think history is something important and to be cherished. Tanis Brown explains how she first became involved in the San Marcos Historical Society. As President of the organization, Tanis describes her goals moving forward for the SMHS, as well as significant items located in the SMHS archives. Education ; History ; Local history ; Nonprofit organizations ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Volunteers 2676 The Importance of Funding and Education Friedman: How do you like to reach out to school groups? Do you have like a school program? Do you have special exhibits for that? Brown: We have, prior to COVID, we had a pretty flourishing hands-on history program for elementary students and for the primary students, they would come out to Heritage Park and participate in kind of a round robin of activities. We'd have five different activities that they would participate in. They would learn about the Native American community that lived here in San Marcos. They would take a tour of two historical houses. They would learn a craft of what kids did one hundred and twenty years ago. What kind of crafts did they do? What kind of things did they have to work with? “Did they have markers? No.” (laughs) So we do a little activity like that. We do games that kids played with pine cones and old equipment and things like that that are kind of made-up games. And then we do chores. So, they do outdoor laundry in the tub. They wash the clothes, they plant in the garden and they make biscuits and butter from scratch. So, and then at the end of the session, we get to taste the butter that we have made. So it's really about, “What was life like in San Marcos back in 1890?” And so, kids get a chance to kind of see--we partner with the Vallecitos Water District, who's very gracious to help bust the students out to Heritage Park. And then they also do a little session on water conservation. And it blends right into our concept of, you know, how did people wash their clothes and wash their dishes and where did they go to the bathroom and take a bath when there were no inside restrooms? So, it's kind of an ecology lesson as well as a sustainability lesson, but also a history lesson as well. Friedman: Those sound really exciting. My next question I realize can pertain both to, I guess, lack of volunteers and also children's education. I didn't realize it pertained to what we just spoke about previously, but what would you like future historians to understand about lack of funding in both education and the nonprofit sphere? Brown: Well, I guess, you know, my family, both my husband and my fathers were both elementary school principals. So we’ve been in involved with public schools our whole lives, and supportive of what public schools do and taking advantage of just amazing teachers and, you know, people who give so much to help our kids learn. And I just think that, in today's world, the things that we celebrate and invest in, while they are important, to know about, I just wish as much money could be invested into education. And I'm not just talking about K-12, I'm talking about higher education and as well. I'm a strong believer in lifelong learning and, you know, education, libraries, civic organizations are really the things that provide a huge quality of life in our community. And, you know, it, pains me a little that so much money goes into sports, and I'm not against sports, or other things that people are high ticket items, that don't end up with a lot of bang for your buck. And I just think, that it's something that we all share and we can always make better. I know there's been a lot of, you know, down talking schools as a result of the last couple of years, and I just, feel bad that teachers kind of take a brunt of stuff and just trying to do the best I can every day. Friedman: Why do you think lack of funding could be so detrimental to the preservation and understanding of history? Brown: Well, I think, I mean, history tells a lot about where we go, and where we've been. And there are, I believe, cycles that come around. But I do think, you know, again, one of the things that excites me is that I get a lot of newsletters from schools and organizations just like Cal State San Marcos. I get the update of all the cool things that are going on on the campus on a weekly basis. And I compare that with the, you know, what's on the news every night, which is kind of depressing. And I'm thinking, “Why aren't we covering all these amazing things that are going on in the local schools?” And not just Cal State San Marcos or in our local schools, but a citywide and regionwide. I mean, students are just doing some amazing things but when there's not a lot of money to support those kinds of things, it does really affect, especially, those who are not--don't have the life experience to know that you can go to a free museum, or, you know, there are free things. And I do think that educational opportunities through schools provide a lot of awareness about ways to do things that don't cost a lot of money or that are enrichment activities through the classrooms. So, and it takes money to pay for that stuff. Friedman: Yeah. That's well said. What do you think these nonprofits need to do in order to survive during these difficult times? Brown: Stick together, I guess. (laughs) Well, you know what, you do what you can do. And, you know, I'm an advocate. I don't like to, you know, diss people for what they're not doing, but really, try to appreciate people for what they do do. And, you know, make the most of it. I think April is Volunteer Month and, you know, volunteering isn't going to happen if people go and they're not enjoying it, or they're not getting some kind of reward out of it. And I think that's, you know, we need to always kind of invest in our volunteers in terms of making sure that they are able to engage in the things they like to do when they come out and volunteer. But, the Historical Society--our members--we participate in a bigger group called CINCH [Council for the Interpretation of North County History], which is all the North County historical societies. We gather four times a year just to share ideas and, you know, tips and what they're doing. And you never know when you're going to get a really good idea from somebody that turns out to be lucrative. And then I'm always looking for partnerships. I'm always looking to work with our agencies, our city. We're so lucky to be able to be in our city park. So we have people that come out to the park and walk by and try to talk to people that come by, invite them in. So yeah, I mean, that's my approach and I guess have grant writers that will help find the money and put it in our hands. (laughs) Tanis Brown discusses the SMHS’s support of education, especially in collaborating with local schools and creating museum tours for school groups. Tanis also explains why the lack of funding in both the educational and nonprofit spheres is detrimental to the understanding of history. Education ; Funding ; History ; Local history ; Nonprofit organizations ; San Marcos (Calif.) 3321 San Marcos History Friedman: That's always important. I would like to jump back a bit to San Marco Marcos’ history. Brown: Okay. Friedman: From your experience working at the San Marcos Historical Society, who do you believe are some significant historical individuals in San Marcos history, such as prominent individuals or famous families? Brown: Okay. Well, the original home--well, first of all, the Twin Oaks area is primarily--was one of the settlement areas for the Luiseño tribe. And, well, I don't have access to direct descendants of those--the mission band of Luiseño Indians are really the kind of the original homesteaders there in the Twin Oaks Valley. So, I think that we should always recognize that, you know, somebody was here before the first covered wagons came or anything like that. And then our Rancho period was very short in San Marcos. So, the first, like homesteader families that are still European homesteader families are the Merriam family. And there are a few of them still living and in this area. The Uhlands have a huge connection, not only to Heritage Park, but the whole Twin Oaks Valley area. And there are still Uhlands family members in town. The Fultons, and a lot of these, like the Fultons, the Bordens, the Barhams--those are all San Marcos street names. So, you don't have to go too far to recognize that those families have had their own streets named after them. But we recently lost the original homestead of a Fulton family, which is very sad. They had a homestead at in San Marcos in 1893, and the last family member that had lived on the homestead, moved to Nebraska last fall. So, from 1893 to 2021, was inhabited by one family. And then also out here in Twin Oaks the Astleford family were only one of two families that owned property here in Twin Oaks Valley. I mentioned William Webster Borden, the Barhams. In the Richland area, there was another Borden, Reynold Bascom Borden his house is still standing in the Richland area. So, we have, you know, again, a number of families. Friedman: That's really interesting. Are there also any individuals from San Marcos history that not as well known that we should know about such as individuals from marginalized communities? Brown: Well, actually, this is kind of interesting. Several years ago we took a world map and tried to chart all the places that, you know, people that had moved to San Marcos, where they had come from. And, while, one of the things that we realized is that we had had a very large community of Serbian and Yugoslavian families that moved to San Marcos. The Prohoroffs were originally from Russia. They moved to Mexico and then migrated up through Mexico to Southern California. We do have, we have Meadowlark Cemetery that is off Rancho Santa Fe Road. It was a pioneer cemetery over on the West end of San Marcos. And there are several homesteaders there that, you know, were there prior, between the 1850s, 1870. I'm trying to think of other--of course, you know, I look at photos of early San Marcos. We had Japanese, we had a lot of Japanese farmers that had to leave during World War II. We have a lot of Hispanic families that have come and gone through San Marcos. And usually, we will meet those people that will come to the museum that, you know, their grandparents worked at Prohoroff Ranch or in the, one of the farms here in San Marcos. But they don't live here anymore. And so, we don't have the longevity of their history. But I'm always anxious to, you know, find out some of those kind of stories that, have lived on. Friedman: That's really interesting. Thank you. Brown: Julia. I need to get a drink. Friedman: Oh, sure. Brown: Can we stop for a minute? Friedman: Yeah, absolutely. So interview with Tanis Brown paused at 11:01. Interview with Tanis Brown resumed at 11:02. If you were to interview someone from San Marcos for an oral history interview, who would be, and why? Brown: Well, we have captured a lot of, kind of the old timey history in San Marcos from the 1800s, 1900s. But I am interested in working with people that maybe are in their sixties that have gone through the entire San Marcos school district, or actually moved here as young children and watched San Marcos grow. As an adult, I’m pretty aware of that, you know, kind of the development of the city. But it would be interesting to get a sense of a student’s perspective as they have grown. And now are adults and their take on San Marco’s history, kind of the next gen[eration] of history for the future. I mean, we have a lot of, you know, kind of more recently women in politics. And I would like to interview Pia Harris [San Marcos' first female council member], Rebecca Jones [San Marcos Mayor at time of recording], and also some of our city employees who have just an amazing background of knowledge of how things came to be. Friedman: I like that. Those are really interesting people to interview. How have you seen the city of San Marcos develop over the last forty years? Brown: (laughs) Well, when my kids first walked to school in San Marcos in 1976, Woodland Park was an elementary school. It's now a middle school. And it was built in the seventies when there was really very little money for new schools. But it was an open school. So, there were no dividers. And the only dividers in the school were short bookcases. And when we walked down to meet the principal before school started, he was standing on a ladder in the very center of the building, looking around at all the--where the classrooms would be. And, we just kind of thought, “Oh my gosh.” It was very interesting, but on the way, walking to school, our children had--we had to skirt a pasture to get to school. We don't see that so much anymore. So those were kind of our first, you know, memories of moving to San Marcos and, really being in a rural community that neither my husband or I had ever felt so close to a rural atmosphere. To, you know, watching the university get built to watching buildings get moved and relocated for the city hall complex. For--certainly traffic is very different. There were no traffic signals in San Marcos until 1974. There was one four-way stop at Mission Empico Road when I was going to Palomar College. So that four-way stop on the first day school could get really crazy. But the thing that I feel kind of most proud about is that we really established, many years ago, that San Marcos would keep a quality of life through parks, open spaces, and trails, so that if you wanted to ride a bicycle from one end of town to the other, or to visit a park, there would be one in your neighborhood and you would have a connection to that. So that part of the growth of San Marcos, I think, is going to pay off in the long run as we continue to develop new neighborhoods like North City and still keeping a quality of life, as well as accommodating people who want to live here. And that doesn't mean just a certain, you know, type of person. We need to keep are community a blended community. So young people, old people, any stripe of person can move to San Marcos, find a home, and a connection. And I think between city, and the organizations, and the resources that we have is that we want to be a welcoming place for anybody who comes to San Marcos. Yeah. Friedman: Thank you. What to you makes San Marcos and San Marcos history so fascinating to study? Brown: Well, I just like the idea that you can, you know, you can create things. I think people come to different communities. Something usually draws them to an area. Like even as back as the first tribal communities, they found what was going to meet their needs: water, flat land, access to food, and shelter. And, I think people are still doing that. They're looking for something that meets their needs. And so I think as we move forward that it's our responsibility to make sure that we provide opportunities for people that come here. I'm not sure I answered that question very well. Friedman: No you did, thank you. And what do you think is so important or what is important about understanding local history? Brown: Okay. Well, I think, I mean, history's human. I mean, you know, a lot of people say, and we always have to second guess ourselves, because the minute you put something down on paper and then somebody--and it's written and somebody'll say, “Well, that isn’t the way I remember it.” So, there's so much humanity in history and it's how we, you know, how we look at it and maybe our opinion of that history changes. But it is. And there isn't just one history, you know. We all make our own history. And so, but I do think--I love the opportunity that we have, at least that I have, and that we're willing to share about information that people felt was important enough to document back in the 1880s or [18]90s, and may have some relevance for us today. We recently were going through the Fulton papers, which we’re archiving, and we found a reference in a letter about the 1916 flood that was here in San Marcos, which we have a photo of in our museum. And that same letter also referenced the pandemic in 1918. So, to me, and it's like, “Oh my gosh,” because we didn't, well, we weren't necessarily looking for it, as it related to San Marcos, but when we saw it, it was like, “Oh my gosh,” it talked about this lady who was willing to go over and help her neighbors out who had the Spanish Flu. And so here it was right here in San Marcos. And I don't know, that just to me create some kind of bond between people from 1918 that were right here in the same neighborhood or in the same place that we were, or we are now. And, so I don't know. That's just so exciting to me that a hundred years ago they were experiencing kind of the same thing and not exactly knowing how to deal with it. So, not that much has changed in spite of all the cars, in spite of all the buildings, not that much has changed. We're still people. And that's what I think history is really about people's stories. Tanis Brown discusses prominent historical figures and families from San Marcos history, including the Barhams, Fultons, and Bordens. Tanis also explains the importance of studying and understanding local history. 19th century ; 20th century ; Education ; History ; Local history ; Local politics ; Nonprofit organizations ; San Marcos (Calif.) 4470 Closing of Interview Friedman: Well, thank you so much, Tanis. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else you'd like to share today? Brown: Well, I would just like to say that, whoever is viewing this video is welcome to come out and visit Heritage Park in Walnut Grove Park. And, we welcome and would love to share history with you. Friedman: Very well said. Well, thank you. It was a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you so much for being part of this project. Brown: Well, I'm really happy to--I wasn't expecting to do that. I was expecting to share other people's names, but I'm happy to have shared my history with you. Friedman: Thank you. We're so happy that you are a part of this project and we're so happy to have your story become a part of our collection. Brown: Great. Me too. Friedman: Well, thank you. Brown: Okay. So is that, is that it. Tanis Brown closes interview by welcoming viewers to share their history with the SMHS. Education ; History ; Local history ; Nonprofit organizations ; San Marcos (Calif.) Tanis Brown is the President of the San Marcos Historical Society and is involved in many local history projects and educational outreach initiatives. In this interview, Tanis discusses her involvement in the city of San Marcos, CA since the 1970s. Tanis quickly became active in the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce and was among the first group of students to enroll in California State University San Marcos. A few years later, she became an employee of CSUSM, establishing the university’s first housing program and working in human resources. Now as President of the San Marcos Historical Society, Tanis is passionate about sharing San Marcos’ local history with her community and with future generations. Julia Friedman: Today is Wednesday, April 13th, 2022, at 9:58 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Tanis Brown for the University Library Special Collections Oral History project. Tanis, thank you for being here with me today. Tanis Brown: Oh, thank you. Hang on just a minute. I have to--all right. Friedman: Perfect. I would like to start by discussing your early days in the city of San Marcos, California. Why did you first move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, I first came to San Marcos in 1976 in the kind of summertime. We moved to San Marcos from Escondido. Friedman: And why did you move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, my husband and I had kind of outgrown our house in Escondido and we were looking--he was looking for a little more yard space so he could start to garden. And so, we were looking for a little bit larger house with a little more backyard. Friedman: And what were your first impressions of the city? Brown: Well, when we were looking at houses, I can remember my husband telling the realtor, &quot ; I&#039 ; m not sure we want to live in San Marcos. It&#039 ; s kind of the boonies, isn&#039 ; t it?&quot ; And, at that time, San Marcos was certainly not the city it is today. It was a lot more rural. Many, many mobile home parks, about twelve if I remember correctly. Only four to five elementary schools and we had two children in school, so we were looking for, you know, a close-by school and again. So, taking some choices about, well, do we want a little bit bigger yard or do we want to stay in a more developed city, like Escondido? And I&#039 ; m certainly glad that we opted to move to San Marcos. Friedman: That&#039 ; s great. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: How did you first become involved in the community of San Marcos during your first years in the city? Brown: Okay, so, right after we moved to San Marcos, I enrolled in an early childhood development course at Palomar college. I had been teaching preschool for a number of years and the first night of class, the teacher said the city of San Marcos is looking for a preschool teacher for their Raggedy Anne and Andy Program, which was very popular. It was expanding at that time. And so, I went the next day and put in an application and ended up getting a job with the city right away within the first couple of months. And so, it was a wonderful opportunity to meet people that worked for the city. Our location was where San Marcos City Hall is now, but the building was the red barn that is now located at Walnut Grove Park, that was where all the city recreation programs were hosted out of. That was the main office for our park and recreation program. So, I started working for the Raggedy Anne and Andy Program and was able to meet a lot of people that worked for the city at that time. And that was kind of our first introduction. And because we were such a small community, a couple of the city council people had their children enrolled in our ragged Anne and Andy program. So immediately, I met two or three city council people and through their children. So that&#039 ; s kind of our quick introduction. And I remember thinking, &quot ; Oh my gosh, I grew up in San Diego. I never ever knew anybody who&#039 ; s elected to anything.&quot ; And here we are, serving, the city council members&#039 ; children. So, it was a very close connection to the local government. Friedman: Have you remained within those organizations? Brown: Yes. So, in addition, I only were worked for the city for about a little bit over a year because, we lived overseas shortly after that, but when I came back, I had already been familiar with the park and recreation program. So, I applied to be a commissioner for the park and recreation program, which is an advisory commission for the city of San Marcos, overseeing the parks and recreation. And I was appointed to that and it was a perfect timing because the city was growing quite a bit and we were developing new parks. So, we went from three parks to eight parks to twelve parks, and I ended up sitting on that commission for over twenty years. So, it was really a great time to watch the city not only develop, but also plan for open space, parks, trails, that kept up with the development of additional housing. Friedman: That&#039 ; s wonderful. Oh my goodness. So, you really saw the city expand in just your first few years in San Marcos. And then shortly after, you enrolled in Cal State San Marcos [California State University San Marcos]. You were among the first class to enroll in 1989. Why did you decide to attend the university? Brown: (laughs) Well, my other--one of the other hats that I have worn for many years is the San Marcos Historical Society. And through that organization, I got to be involved with the Chamber of Commerce. We had a reciprocal agreement and I was attending a lot of Chamber events, and I was lucky enough to meet Richard Rush, who was the Dean of the North San Diego campus at that time. And he kept talking about, you know, they were going to have, well at one point, it was going to be a San Diego State satellite campus up in North County. And, you know, just a lot about that. So, I got to know him fairly well. And then, in 1989, when San Marcos was going to be the host city for the university, I thought, &quot ; Well, I better get in on the ground floor of this.&quot ; So, I applied to go take all my many, many undergraduate units and apply them towards a degree. All my kids were now in school. Perfect timing. So, I applied to go to be in the first graduating class of Cal State San Marcos. So, it was wonderful. And I can remember in my first--one of my first classes on the first day, Dick Rush came in and waved, sat and waved out the window. So it was, it was like, &quot ; Oh, this is great, this feels like home.&quot ; So, it was--it was very comfortable. Friedman: Oh, that&#039 ; s wonderful. Because I understand that the original campus was a storefront property while the permanent one was being built across town. Can you discuss what it was like attending CSUSM [California State University San Marcos] during those early days as a university? Brown: Yes, we called it Cal State Jerome&#039 ; s [CSUSM was located near to a Jerome&#039 ; s furniture store] and we were in industrial park and, there were very few classes. I remember we didn&#039 ; t have a full compliment of majors like we do now. And the first several years of campus life were only upper-class juniors and seniors, as well as teaching programs. So, we had only upper division classes and every semester there were only so many classes for each department. So pretty much everybody who was in one class was in all your classes together, depending on what your major was. So, we really got to know one another and there was a lot of camaraderie between the faculty, the students, the staff, because we were all about the same age. The average age of students in the first few years of Cal State San Marcos was thirty-nine years old. So, you can imagine that, we--some of us were older than our faculty members, our professors, and certainly had a lot of a local experience. But most people, it was most certainly a commuter campus. There wasn&#039 ; t much campus life. Friedman: What did you major in? Brown: Well, I was an English major with a minor in women&#039 ; s studies. Friedman: That&#039 ; s great. And how many students were enrolled in your cohort, or in your class? Brown: I think our first graduating class was between ninety and ninety-five, something like that. So, we all fit in Craven Circle, in three rows of chairs, just about. Friedman: I was actually expecting it to be a little smaller, but that&#039 ; s actually really interesting. Could you elaborate a little more on the comradery amongst your classmates? Kind of like, what was the culture like in general within your cohort? Brown: Well, like I say, most students were, you know, adults who have lots of other stuff going on. Most people were working, or parents, or involved in community activities or especially jobs. We were all [reentering]--most of us were reentry students. And so, in addition to taking classes, we had other things going on in our lives. So, it was a little bit challenging. I know when we started to try to talk about having student groups and all that. But once again, we--there was a deli in the industrial park called the Full Belly Deli. A lot of people would go there for lunch if they were able to be on campus for a whole day. Usually people came and went. It was very kind of a drive-by campus if you will, you know. People were there because there were not gathering places. So, we did try. We had powwows. Bonnie Biggs, who was the dean of the library at that time, brought in a lot of musical performances and it was really enriching and exposed us to a lot of, you know, great music. And like I say, we were involved with the Native American tribal community in the North County and so we hosted a powwow. So those were things that were also included as part of our school requirements to, you know, get involved in these international things that were going on campus. Friedman: That&#039 ; s great. And from what I understand, there were already some student organizations established on campus, such as ASI--? Brown: Well, no, the first year, Dr. Ernie Zomalt who&#039 ; s the Executive Vice President and Sandy Punch, who was doing student affairs, really helped form the first group for an election for the first Associated Students. And I had just had a conversation with Charles Ragland who is one of the former ASI presidents back in the early years. And, the first couple of years we did have the Associated Students, but it wasn&#039 ; t an incorporation, it was just a campus organization. We did vote and we did actually vote for some student fees. But yeah, so we did have an election and I was on the first Associated Students group and we did a lot of the heavy lifting of bylaw writing and that kind of thing, as well as trying to establish some kind of connection between students and trying to encourage them to think about imposing fees that would not necessarily impact them at all, but would impact the future of the university. Friedman: Thank you for clearing that up. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: That&#039 ; s really interesting. And then as I understand it, you later became an employee a few years after graduating at CSUSM. Can you explain those roles that that you worked at CSUSM? Brown: Sure. So, after I graduated, I went to work for a social service agency in Vista Lifeline Community Services. And I was a grant writer there for about a year and a half. In the meantime, the campus had grown and were about to launch a (laughs) full four-year student body. And so, all of a sudden housing was needed. And because of my relationship with, you know, kind of the community, I had a lot of access to, you know, where to rent an apartment or this and that. I knew a lot of community members, my, you know, just community contacts. And so, I applied for a job with the university to be a Special Projects Coordinator in the Vice President&#039 ; s office. So, I went back and worked part-time, doing special projects. And then that job got extended to fifty percent of also housing and trying to not only help faculty members find housing, but also to help students find housing. And then actually starting the first housing program at Cal State San Marcos. So that was that became a bigger and bigger job (laughs) because we didn&#039 ; t have a facility. So, we had to go out and find housing. We had to find suitable housing for a group of students so that we could, you know, kind of cluster them together and create opportunities that would be quasi student life. And it was, it was a very interesting endeavor. (laughs) Friedman: It&#039 ; s important though. From what I understand, you also were involved in HR for many years and in the Retirees Association. Could you explain a little bit about your roles in those departments as well? Brown: Sure. So, I moved over to Human Resources as the Training Coordinator and my job was to provide training opportunities for staff and also develop a new employee orientation. So, I had the really fun job in Human Resources. I was kind of known as the &quot ; cheerleader&quot ; because in addition to training opportunities, one of the things that I really enjoyed doing was at the end of every year, we would do an employee recognition. This was before they had employee the month or anything like that. So once a year we would have an event that would recognize employees for their years of service. And just to, you know, just to thank employees for being on campus. In the early years, people moved around a lot just because of the growing campus. And so, there was a lot of expectation that don&#039 ; t get too used to the office that you&#039 ; re sitting in because six months now you may be moving to another office down the hallway. So, it was just a way to recognize, and I think the, you know, all the managers and leadership at the university really recognized how so many of the employees got called on to do things that they never expected to do when they were hired, just because we were a new campus and something new would come up and we just have to do it. And, we were very limited in staff. We didn&#039 ; t have three or four people in an office, but it was great. People enjoyed one another. And I have wonderful friends that I made at Cal State San Marcos, and it&#039 ; s carried over to the Retirees Association as well. So, and the other thing I loved about my job with orientation is that I got to meet everybody that was a new employee at the campus. So, I was kind of the face of HR, I believe, for many years, in terms of, you know, within their first couple of weeks of work, they were going to spend a day with me and I was going to kind of show the ropes of Cal State San Marcos. Later on, a lot of my job required a lot of compliance training as well, sexual harassment, and a lot of things like that in addition to the kind of enrichment training. Friedman: Well, thank you. So much of what you did as a student and as an employee at CSUSM seemed to involve community on campus. How did you see the CSUSM community develop over time? Brown: Are you talking about the campus community? Friedman: Oh, yes. Sorry. Yes. Brown: Okay. Well, I visited campus yesterday and we walked through the dome and in the olden days, the dome was the only really gathering place on campus. So, if you worked in Craven Hall you had to walk through the dome from the parking lot and so you pass through it, it was the place that you could eat your lunch. And usually you&#039 ; d always see somebody you knew in the dome. So, there were those opportunities to make friends. And some of the employees at actually were also taking classes while they were working at Cal State San Marcos. So, it was an opportunity for just meeting and getting to know one another. But, you know, I still get that same feel just when I&#039 ; ve been on campus other times that, people are anxious to help, they are anxious to reach out. And even the President was pretty accessible when I was there. You know, Dr. Haynes was primarily the longest serving President when I was at Cal State San Marcos and she&#039 ; d be out and about on campus. And, it was, it was really great to see, you know, to know that the President was walking around, seeing what was going on as well. So, and I still get that feeling that there&#039 ; s a lot of opportunity for meeting and greeting it at the university. Friedman: That&#039 ; s wonderful. I would like to jump ahead now, or I suppose, change topics. You had mentioned that when you were a student at Cal State San Marcos, you were already involved in the San Marcos Historical Society. When did you first become involved in the organization? Brown: Well, as I mentioned early on, we moved to San Marcos and within the first eighteen months, my husband had an opportunity to go overseas and teach at a military facility. So, we moved to Germany. We rented out our house and bundled up our family and moved to Germany for two years. And while I was there, I was not working. And so, I just fell in love with history. And there, you know, Europe is a little bit older than Southern California (laughs), and I just really latched onto history. And within about a month of us coming back and getting resettled into our house, I was walking in the neighborhood and realized that we had a historical house at the top of a hill, not far from where I live and it was being vandalized. So, I contacted the city and I said, &quot ; Somebody needs to do something about this, because we don&#039 ; t have very many historical houses in San Marcos.&quot ; What&#039 ; s, you know, who owns it and trying to get to the bottom of that. Anyway, the city manager at the time recommended that I contact the Historical Society and they could tell me a little bit more the house, but in the meantime, they were going to check it out and they did follow up and say, &quot ; Oh, the house has just been purchased and they are planning to renovate it.&quot ; So, that was a good opportunity for something good to happen. But I did visit the Historical Society shortly after that and was privileged to meet several families of, you know, descendants of the pioneer families that lived here in San Marcos. So, I don&#039 ; t know all the old timers but kind of the second generation of old timers. And I just was amazed at the, you know, what a small town San Marcos had, but what a rich history it had, which I&#039 ; m still marveling at that every day. So, yes. So, they kind of adopted me. I was quite a bit younger than anybody who was serving at the Historical Society at that time and just had an opportunity to meet some wonderful people who could tell me great stories about the history of San Marcos. And so, I got involved there and just continued to stay involved for a number of years, and then took a hiatus when I went back to school. And so then jump forward twenty years after I retired and my husband and I traveled for a few years and then came back and the Historical Society was going to be relocating their museum. And that&#039 ; s the time I kind of stepped up and said, &quot ; Sure, I can help.&quot ; And, so that was in 2009 and I&#039 ; m still there. (Brown and Friedman laugh) Friedman: Is that when you became President or were you [unintelligible]? Brown: Yeah, I have been the President for a very long time. But yes, but we have a really wonderful group of not so many of the pioneer families are left here in San Marcos. But we do have a steadfast group of volunteers that help out. We established a hands-on history program and we&#039 ; ve had a lot of Cal State San Marcos students. Want to find out about that. That are going into the teaching program. And we&#039 ; ve also had a few internships and I&#039 ; ve been able to connect with the, uh, we are a community partner through the community service learning program at Cal State San Marcos. Friedman: What has been your goal as present of the historical society? Brown: Oh my gosh. Well, moving forward, thinking about where we need to be in the future is first and foremost, we have two historical houses that will always need a lot of tender love and care and upkeep because they were built at the end of the nineteenth century, so they&#039 ; re quite old. So establishing an endowment fund for the houses to keep them and other historical houses in perpetuity or as long as they can stand. We also have--my immediate project is a fire engine that I&#039 ; m trying to get fixed up so we can add it to our hands-on history program. And then, of course, the wonderful thing that we have is the documentation of our history and our archives. And I am blessed to be able to work with Sean [Visintainer] and Jennifer Ho on establishing a really good archival program for our records in the hope that they would be worthy of someone&#039 ; s collection at some point if anything should happen to the Historical Society. So, just kind of laying the foundation for the future, kind of the &quot ; what ifs&quot ; and &quot ; what would happen if&quot ; and &quot ; how might we continue to preserve these things.&quot ; Friedman: That&#039 ; s wonderful. That&#039 ; s very smart. You always need to be thinking forward for your archive collection. Going to your archive, do you have any gems in the archive that you would like to talk about or share? Brown: We have a couple things that are pretty special. So, in the early years of first establishing San Marcos, there were three distinct communities. There was the Twin Oaks area out on the Northeastern side of San Marcos. There was the area known as Richland, which is kind of the center of town and where Cal State San Marcos is. And then on the West end, there was a community known as Barham township. And Barham township today is kind of right on the border of San Marcos and Encinitas. And there was a gentleman named William Webster Borden, and William Webster Borden was the postmaster. He wrote the first newspaper that we have documented called The Plain Truth. And it was postmarked from Barham, California. Anyway, his great-great-grandson delivered to us William Webster Borden&#039 ; s type desk, which is a tall chest that contains all the little letters to make a newspaper, the individual letters. And so, we are pleased to have William Webster Borden&#039 ; s type desk. Another thing that we have inherited from that area, there used to be Meadowlark Ranch that was off Rancho Santa Fe Road. And we have the corral gate from Meadowlark Ranch that was taken down in the 1950s. And it is barely standing, but we have figured it up on our backyard so people can have a chance to see that. And then we have an old schoolhouse bell from the 1910 schoolhouse. And that was given to us by William Carroll, who was quite a character. He ran the Outlook Newspaper. He bought the 1910 schoolhouse in the [19]60s and restored it as his newspaper office. He relocated it on Grand Avenue and it&#039 ; s still standing. But he left town in the nineties and moved to New Mexico and then Arcata, California. And once he got settled up there, he contacted us and said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to give you the bell, but you have to come and get it.&quot ; So, it&#039 ; s a pretty far drive up there. And the thing weighs over two hundred and fifty pounds. So luckily, we were able to find someone who was making the trip down that would deliver it to us. So, we have the original bell from the 1910 schoolhouse in our museum. Friedman: That&#039 ; s wonderful. Brown: Yeah. One last thing is our museum and building itself is pretty special in that it was built in 1939 by a grant for three thousand two hundred dollars, but it was built by the WPA, which is the Works Progress Administration under Franklin Roosevelt&#039 ; s New Deal. And so that was kind of the tail end of the WPA projects. And so, we provided the money for the supplies, but the government would actually supply the workers and pay the workers to complete the work. So, our museum today is one of those projects from the WPA back in 1939. Friedman: That&#039 ; s a great story. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: Wow. You mentioned how are a volunteer-run organization. How do you think the community of your organization and San Marcos in general have contributed to the preservation of the history of San Marcos? Brown: Hmm. Well. I guess one of the things that I&#039 ; m thinking about in addition to the legacy that we leave is that the pandemic has helped me understand that sometimes you can&#039 ; t wait for people to come to you because we were closed so much of the time during the pandemic that a lot of our programs, a lot of our volunteers, you know, we didn&#039 ; t have them anymore. So, recently, I was on a trip up in Washington state and walking along some of the trails up there are these beautiful displays that show a picture of--you&#039 ; re looking at a building across the lake, but you&#039 ; re seeing a photo of what it was like in 1920 or something like that. And it&#039 ; s called--the little caption underneath is called Trail Tales. And so, it occurred to me that we really do need to take history out to the public. And, not just on special occasions, when I go out to do a presentation or somebody calls the Historical Society. But just for anybody who&#039 ; s maybe going out for a walk. So, that is one of the things that I&#039 ; d like to see us do as a city and just community activity is to identify some of these areas that have changed so much over the years and have a then-and-now photo, or a description of what they&#039 ; re looking at, what it used to look like back in the 1920s or in 1890s. So that we just don&#039 ; t get used to thinking that this is the way it&#039 ; s always been, and this is the way it&#039 ; ll always be that there was something before that--what you&#039 ; re seeing today. Friedman: How would you like to, I guess, bring awareness to kind of that issue? Brown: Well, I guess one of the things that we have to do is as, you know, try to work with maybe developers of new projects and have them incorporate some of these Trail Tales or historical icons, so that you can, actually, from the ground level, add that to the aesthetic of whatever&#039 ; s being built today. I mean, maybe we could start at Cal State University and have a photo of the Prohoroff Poultry Farm, (laughs) I don&#039 ; t know, but, there are endless possibilities here in San Marcos. And I was just thinking-- there&#039 ; s a new Costco along San Marcos Boulevard and that--where those buildings were airports here in San Marcos, which I&#039 ; m sure not too many people know about that we had two airports here in San Marcos. So, Julia, you pose a good question. It always requires a little leg work talking just to the right people and getting people excited about things. Friedman: I would like to see that happen someday. I--(laughs) Brown: Maybe we can work together. (laughs) Friedman: Ooh, I like that. I guess see that as a project, as an exhibit. I could see that as many things. I&#039 ; m excited. I hope to see that someday. (laughs) Brown: I would love that. Friedman: How have you seen your organization grow over the years? Brown: The Historical Society? Friedman: Yeah. Brown: Historical societies, or at least ours, has not grown. It has dwindled. I think a lot of--and hopefully that is not the--or it&#039 ; s changed, I guess. I think there are less and less, not opportunities, but there are less and less people that get actively involved in volunteerism as much as I remember growing up. Or at least back in the [19]80s, because most people would retire, you know, between fifty-eight, sixty-five [years old], and then they would dedicate a few years to a civic organization. In talking with other historical societies in North County, groups like Kiwanis [Kiwanis International] and Rotary [San Diego Rotary], I&#039 ; ve noticed a kind of a steady decline in those memberships. And I don&#039 ; t think it&#039 ; s because people aren&#039 ; t equally as busy now as they used to be, but their time is spent differently than it maybe had been in the past. And I don&#039 ; t know. I think my generation of people, or maybe it&#039 ; s just me, I tend to be a joiner. I like doing stuff with other people because I think more gets accomplished. But that&#039 ; s a good question. Something, I think about a lot in terms of, you know, again, what happens if our volunteers, you know, we don&#039 ; t have as many people that are as interested in our future or our history and moving it forward. So, my big hope is kids as all, as we like to make sure that they think history is something important and to be cherished. Friedman: How do you like to reach out to school groups? Do you have like a school program? Do you have special exhibits for that? Brown: We have, prior to COVID, we had a pretty flourishing hands-on history program for elementary students and for the primary students, they would come out to Heritage Park and participate in kind of a round robin of activities. We&#039 ; d have five different activities that they would participate in. They would learn about the Native American community that lived here in San Marcos. They would take a tour of two historical houses. They would learn a craft of what kids did one hundred and twenty years ago. What kind of crafts did they do? What kind of things did they have to work with? &quot ; Did they have markers? No.&quot ; (laughs) So we do a little activity like that. We do games that kids played with pine cones and old equipment and things like that that are kind of made-up games. And then we do chores. So, they do outdoor laundry in the tub. They wash the clothes, they plant in the garden and they make biscuits and butter from scratch. So, and then at the end of the session, we get to taste the butter that we have made. So it&#039 ; s really about, &quot ; What was life like in San Marcos back in 1890?&quot ; And so, kids get a chance to kind of see--we partner with the Vallecitos Water District, who&#039 ; s very gracious to help bust the students out to Heritage Park. And then they also do a little session on water conservation. And it blends right into our concept of, you know, how did people wash their clothes and wash their dishes and where did they go to the bathroom and take a bath when there were no inside restrooms? So, it&#039 ; s kind of an ecology lesson as well as a sustainability lesson, but also a history lesson as well. Friedman: Those sound really exciting. My next question I realize can pertain both to, I guess, lack of volunteers and also children&#039 ; s education. I didn&#039 ; t realize it pertained to what we just spoke about previously, but what would you like future historians to understand about lack of funding in both education and the nonprofit sphere? Brown: Well, I guess, you know, my family, both my husband and my fathers were both elementary school principals. So we&#039 ; ve been in involved with public schools our whole lives, and supportive of what public schools do and taking advantage of just amazing teachers and, you know, people who give so much to help our kids learn. And I just think that, in today&#039 ; s world, the things that we celebrate and invest in, while they are important, to know about, I just wish as much money could be invested into education. And I&#039 ; m not just talking about K-12, I&#039 ; m talking about higher education and as well. I&#039 ; m a strong believer in lifelong learning and, you know, education, libraries, civic organizations are really the things that provide a huge quality of life in our community. And, you know, it, pains me a little that so much money goes into sports, and I&#039 ; m not against sports, or other things that people are high ticket items, that don&#039 ; t end up with a lot of bang for your buck. And I just think, that it&#039 ; s something that we all share and we can always make better. I know there&#039 ; s been a lot of, you know, down talking schools as a result of the last couple of years, and I just, feel bad that teachers kind of take a brunt of stuff and just trying to do the best I can every day. Friedman: Why do you think lack of funding could be so detrimental to the preservation and understanding of history? Brown: Well, I think, I mean, history tells a lot about where we go, and where we&#039 ; ve been. And there are, I believe, cycles that come around. But I do think, you know, again, one of the things that excites me is that I get a lot of newsletters from schools and organizations just like Cal State San Marcos. I get the update of all the cool things that are going on on the campus on a weekly basis. And I compare that with the, you know, what&#039 ; s on the news every night, which is kind of depressing. And I&#039 ; m thinking, &quot ; Why aren&#039 ; t we covering all these amazing things that are going on in the local schools?&quot ; And not just Cal State San Marcos or in our local schools, but a citywide and regionwide. I mean, students are just doing some amazing things but when there&#039 ; s not a lot of money to support those kinds of things, it does really affect, especially, those who are not--don&#039 ; t have the life experience to know that you can go to a free museum, or, you know, there are free things. And I do think that educational opportunities through schools provide a lot of awareness about ways to do things that don&#039 ; t cost a lot of money or that are enrichment activities through the classrooms. So, and it takes money to pay for that stuff. Friedman: Yeah. That&#039 ; s well said. What do you think these nonprofits need to do in order to survive during these difficult times? Brown: Stick together, I guess. (laughs) Well, you know what, you do what you can do. And, you know, I&#039 ; m an advocate. I don&#039 ; t like to, you know, diss people for what they&#039 ; re not doing, but really, try to appreciate people for what they do do. And, you know, make the most of it. I think April is Volunteer Month and, you know, volunteering isn&#039 ; t going to happen if people go and they&#039 ; re not enjoying it, or they&#039 ; re not getting some kind of reward out of it. And I think that&#039 ; s, you know, we need to always kind of invest in our volunteers in terms of making sure that they are able to engage in the things they like to do when they come out and volunteer. But, the Historical Society--our members--we participate in a bigger group called CINCH [Council for the Interpretation of North County History], which is all the North County historical societies. We gather four times a year just to share ideas and, you know, tips and what they&#039 ; re doing. And you never know when you&#039 ; re going to get a really good idea from somebody that turns out to be lucrative. And then I&#039 ; m always looking for partnerships. I&#039 ; m always looking to work with our agencies, our city. We&#039 ; re so lucky to be able to be in our city park. So we have people that come out to the park and walk by and try to talk to people that come by, invite them in. So yeah, I mean, that&#039 ; s my approach and I guess have grant writers that will help find the money and put it in our hands. (laughs) Friedman: That&#039 ; s always important. I would like to jump back a bit to San Marco Marcos&#039 ; history. Brown: Okay. Friedman: From your experience working at the San Marcos Historical Society, who do you believe are some significant historical individuals in San Marcos history, such as prominent individuals or famous families? Brown: Okay. Well, the original home--well, first of all, the Twin Oaks area is primarily--was one of the settlement areas for the Luiseño tribe. And, well, I don&#039 ; t have access to direct descendants of those--the mission band of Luiseño Indians are really the kind of the original homesteaders there in the Twin Oaks Valley. So, I think that we should always recognize that, you know, somebody was here before the first covered wagons came or anything like that. And then our Rancho period was very short in San Marcos. So, the first, like homesteader families that are still European homesteader families are the Merriam family. And there are a few of them still living and in this area. The Uhlands have a huge connection, not only to Heritage Park, but the whole Twin Oaks Valley area. And there are still Uhlands family members in town. The Fultons, and a lot of these, like the Fultons, the Bordens, the Barhams--those are all San Marcos street names. So, you don&#039 ; t have to go too far to recognize that those families have had their own streets named after them. But we recently lost the original homestead of a Fulton family, which is very sad. They had a homestead at in San Marcos in 1893, and the last family member that had lived on the homestead, moved to Nebraska last fall. So, from 1893 to 2021, was inhabited by one family. And then also out here in Twin Oaks the Astleford family were only one of two families that owned property here in Twin Oaks Valley. I mentioned William Webster Borden, the Barhams. In the Richland area, there was another Borden, Reynold Bascom Borden his house is still standing in the Richland area. So, we have, you know, again, a number of families. Friedman: That&#039 ; s really interesting. Are there also any individuals from San Marcos history that not as well known that we should know about such as individuals from marginalized communities? Brown: Well, actually, this is kind of interesting. Several years ago we took a world map and tried to chart all the places that, you know, people that had moved to San Marcos, where they had come from. And, while, one of the things that we realized is that we had had a very large community of Serbian and Yugoslavian families that moved to San Marcos. The Prohoroffs were originally from Russia. They moved to Mexico and then migrated up through Mexico to Southern California. We do have, we have Meadowlark Cemetery that is off Rancho Santa Fe Road. It was a pioneer cemetery over on the West end of San Marcos. And there are several homesteaders there that, you know, were there prior, between the 1850s, 1870. I&#039 ; m trying to think of other--of course, you know, I look at photos of early San Marcos. We had Japanese, we had a lot of Japanese farmers that had to leave during World War II. We have a lot of Hispanic families that have come and gone through San Marcos. And usually, we will meet those people that will come to the museum that, you know, their grandparents worked at Prohoroff Ranch or in the, one of the farms here in San Marcos. But they don&#039 ; t live here anymore. And so, we don&#039 ; t have the longevity of their history. But I&#039 ; m always anxious to, you know, find out some of those kind of stories that, have lived on. Friedman: That&#039 ; s really interesting. Thank you. Brown: Julia. I need to get a drink. Friedman: Oh, sure. Brown: Can we stop for a minute? Friedman: Yeah, absolutely. So interview with Tanis Brown paused at 11:01. Interview with Tanis Brown resumed at 11:02. If you were to interview someone from San Marcos for an oral history interview, who would be, and why? Brown: Well, we have captured a lot of, kind of the old timey history in San Marcos from the 1800s, 1900s. But I am interested in working with people that maybe are in their sixties that have gone through the entire San Marcos school district, or actually moved here as young children and watched San Marcos grow. As an adult, I&#039 ; m pretty aware of that, you know, kind of the development of the city. But it would be interesting to get a sense of a student&#039 ; s perspective as they have grown. And now are adults and their take on San Marco&#039 ; s history, kind of the next gen[eration] of history for the future. I mean, we have a lot of, you know, kind of more recently women in politics. And I would like to interview Pia Harris [San Marcos&#039 ; first female council member], Rebecca Jones [San Marcos Mayor at time of recording], and also some of our city employees who have just an amazing background of knowledge of how things came to be. Friedman: I like that. Those are really interesting people to interview. How have you seen the city of San Marcos develop over the last forty years? Brown: (laughs) Well, when my kids first walked to school in San Marcos in 1976, Woodland Park was an elementary school. It&#039 ; s now a middle school. And it was built in the seventies when there was really very little money for new schools. But it was an open school. So, there were no dividers. And the only dividers in the school were short bookcases. And when we walked down to meet the principal before school started, he was standing on a ladder in the very center of the building, looking around at all the--where the classrooms would be. And, we just kind of thought, &quot ; Oh my gosh.&quot ; It was very interesting, but on the way, walking to school, our children had--we had to skirt a pasture to get to school. We don&#039 ; t see that so much anymore. So those were kind of our first, you know, memories of moving to San Marcos and, really being in a rural community that neither my husband or I had ever felt so close to a rural atmosphere. To, you know, watching the university get built to watching buildings get moved and relocated for the city hall complex. For--certainly traffic is very different. There were no traffic signals in San Marcos until 1974. There was one four-way stop at Mission Empico Road when I was going to Palomar College. So that four-way stop on the first day school could get really crazy. But the thing that I feel kind of most proud about is that we really established, many years ago, that San Marcos would keep a quality of life through parks, open spaces, and trails, so that if you wanted to ride a bicycle from one end of town to the other, or to visit a park, there would be one in your neighborhood and you would have a connection to that. So that part of the growth of San Marcos, I think, is going to pay off in the long run as we continue to develop new neighborhoods like North City and still keeping a quality of life, as well as accommodating people who want to live here. And that doesn&#039 ; t mean just a certain, you know, type of person. We need to keep are community a blended community. So young people, old people, any stripe of person can move to San Marcos, find a home, and a connection. And I think between city, and the organizations, and the resources that we have is that we want to be a welcoming place for anybody who comes to San Marcos. Yeah. Friedman: Thank you. What to you makes San Marcos and San Marcos history so fascinating to study? Brown: Well, I just like the idea that you can, you know, you can create things. I think people come to different communities. Something usually draws them to an area. Like even as back as the first tribal communities, they found what was going to meet their needs: water, flat land, access to food, and shelter. And, I think people are still doing that. They&#039 ; re looking for something that meets their needs. And so I think as we move forward that it&#039 ; s our responsibility to make sure that we provide opportunities for people that come here. I&#039 ; m not sure I answered that question very well. Friedman: No you did, thank you. And what do you think is so important or what is important about understanding local history? Brown: Okay. Well, I think, I mean, history&#039 ; s human. I mean, you know, a lot of people say, and we always have to second guess ourselves, because the minute you put something down on paper and then somebody--and it&#039 ; s written and somebody&#039 ; ll say, &quot ; Well, that isn&#039 ; t the way I remember it.&quot ; So, there&#039 ; s so much humanity in history and it&#039 ; s how we, you know, how we look at it and maybe our opinion of that history changes. But it is. And there isn&#039 ; t just one history, you know. We all make our own history. And so, but I do think--I love the opportunity that we have, at least that I have, and that we&#039 ; re willing to share about information that people felt was important enough to document back in the 1880s or [18]90s, and may have some relevance for us today. We recently were going through the Fulton papers, which we&#039 ; re archiving, and we found a reference in a letter about the 1916 flood that was here in San Marcos, which we have a photo of in our museum. And that same letter also referenced the pandemic in 1918. So, to me, and it&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Oh my gosh,&quot ; because we didn&#039 ; t, well, we weren&#039 ; t necessarily looking for it, as it related to San Marcos, but when we saw it, it was like, &quot ; Oh my gosh,&quot ; it talked about this lady who was willing to go over and help her neighbors out who had the Spanish Flu. And so here it was right here in San Marcos. And I don&#039 ; t know, that just to me create some kind of bond between people from 1918 that were right here in the same neighborhood or in the same place that we were, or we are now. And, so I don&#039 ; t know. That&#039 ; s just so exciting to me that a hundred years ago they were experiencing kind of the same thing and not exactly knowing how to deal with it. So, not that much has changed in spite of all the cars, in spite of all the buildings, not that much has changed. We&#039 ; re still people. And that&#039 ; s what I think history is really about people&#039 ; s stories. Friedman: Well, thank you so much, Tanis. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else you&#039 ; d like to share today? Brown: Well, I would just like to say that, whoever is viewing this video is welcome to come out and visit Heritage Park in Walnut Grove Park. And, we welcome and would love to share history with you. Friedman: Very well said. Well, thank you. It was a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you so much for being part of this project. Brown: Well, I&#039 ; m really happy to--I wasn&#039 ; t expecting to do that. I was expecting to share other people&#039 ; s names, but I&#039 ; m happy to have shared my history with you. Friedman: Thank you. We&#039 ; re so happy that you are a part of this project and we&#039 ; re so happy to have your story become a part of our collection. Brown: Great. Me too. Friedman: Well, thank you. Brown: Okay. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BrownTanis_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-13.xml BrownTanis_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-13.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brown, Tanis. Interview April 13, 2022 Description An account of the resource Tanis Brown is the President of the San Marcos Historical Society and is involved in many local history projects and educational outreach initiatives. In this interview, Tanis discusses her involvement in the city of San Marcos, CA since the 1970s. Tanis quickly became active in the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce and was among the first group of students to enroll in California State University San Marcos. A few years later, she became an employee of CSUSM, establishing the university’s first housing program and working in human resources. Now as President of the San Marcos Historical Society, Tanis is passionate about sharing San Marcos’ local history with her community and with future generations. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-20 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos San Marcos (Calif.) -- History San Marcos Historical Society -- California -- San Marcos Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-13 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tanis Brown Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julia Friedman Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Tanis Brown Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience