17 10 181 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b522e906848aa65847db9109799b14eb.mp4 6f044aaeb04a95529c38e8ba1cc74d60 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral history of Thao Ha, April 19, 2022 Description An account of the resource Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at Mira Costa College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thao Ha Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-19 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam) Houston (Tex.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <table width="137"> <tbody> <tr> <td width="137"><span data-contrast="none"><a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en&nbsp;&nbsp;</a></span></td> </tr> </tbody> </table> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Thao Ha License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <table width="137"> <tbody> <tr> <td width="137"><a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a></td> </tr> </tbody> </table> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.mp4 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. SC027: California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/35e9e4684adf94123fb801dc0efe5b35.pdf 4f2797a71fce1b3f3f8626ce7b872d70 PDF Text Text THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, “Oh my God, it must have been so scary.” (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 1 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, “Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives” by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or…? Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 2 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, “How come you weren’t a pilot when you were already a pilot?” And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, “Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.” And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, “Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.” Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 3 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs; two, it was warm (laughs); and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, “Go back to my own country,” you know, “Go back to your country.” And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I—I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, “Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,” and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 4 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, “Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,” right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was—you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 5 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you’re in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, “Oh, I fallen and I can't get up,” and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, “They looked like gangsters,” and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 6 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, “Oh my God! We know him,” but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents-my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, “I did this like three years ago.” (laughs) Right? So I came home and I-and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, “Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now.” So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 7 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, “Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author.” And my parents were like, “Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?” And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, “Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.” And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don’t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, “Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I’ll just figure it out later and take the test.” Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it—or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking “Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.” And going more towards thinking “Well maybe I'll just get a job,” because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, “I don't know what I'm going to do.” And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, “That's it. I'll just go get a job.” And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, “Okay,” something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, “Okay, that's it, it's time to—" it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, “Okay if I go back to school,” which I definitely wanted to do, “I will study something that I want to.” And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, “Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!” And I thought, “Well, I will study law,” so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, “Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,” and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 8 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie’s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, “Okay, we got to get out of here,” right? “We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.” So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like-and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, “Okay, we got to get out of here!” And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, “There's a fight outside. We got to go!” So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, “Bang, bang, bang.” We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, “Why does my arm hurt so bad?” And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, “Fuck, I got shot!” right? And everybody's like, “What, what, what!?” And so, I'm like, “Drive to hospital!” Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking “What just happened?” And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe just Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 9 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 what happened.” And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, “Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.” And I was just like, “Ow!” It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, “No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this.” Like, “If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here.” I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, “Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,” right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, “Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky.” Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, “Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter.” I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, “Oh, you see that?” And so, he was pointing, and he said, “That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm.” And then he goes, “Oh, you see that? That's her nerve.” So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He’s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, “So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.” So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, “Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis.” And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents “Two millimeters.” That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, “Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up.” Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 10 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, “Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!” You know you watch on TV and it's like, “Let me know if you're cold!” Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, “I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it’s just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again.” Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, “What are your goals?” I was like, “Well I want to play volleyball again.” And he was like, “I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work.” Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, “I will write with my right hand!” So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, “Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything,” right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, “People study Vietnamese people?” It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. “Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.” So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 11 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, “Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor.” And I will never forget. She's like, “Oh, I know you.” she's like, “You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?” And I said, “No,” and she said, “Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!” And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, “Wow! I feel so special.” So, I said, “Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.” (laughs) And she was like, “You want to go to law school, huh?” So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, “Do you want to work eighty hours a week?” And I was like, “No.” And she said, “Well, you know that’s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality.” She was like, “Have you ever thought about being a professor?” I said, “No.” She said, “Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,” right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, “Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.” And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, “How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.” And I'm like, “Oh, wow.” So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, “I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side.” So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, “Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!” And I'm like, “Oh my God.” (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, “Your daughter should be a professor.” And my parents like, “Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.” (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. “Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.” And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, “If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.” So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, “Oh man, that's really what Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 12 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore,” and my parents were like, “Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer.” (laughs) “You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?” That's my mom, right? Like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.” So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, “Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.” So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, “Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study.” So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like “I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.” I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 13 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, “We should just do away with prisons,” prison abolition, like, “We don't need prisons in society.” And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, “Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society.” So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 14 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 15 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, “Oh, you did that and so you get out,” but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, “Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society,” people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don’t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, “Well, I learned that on TikTok.” Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, “Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!” I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 16 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, “Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?” And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, “I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.” And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, “I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.” So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 17 2022-05-11 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ha, Thao. Interview transcript. April 14, 2022. Description An account of the resource Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at Mira Costa College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thao Ha Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-14 Subject The topic of the resource Education Gangs -- Texas -- Houston MiraCosta College -- Transitions Program Refugees -- Vietnam Transitions (Program) Victims of violent crimes Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam) Houston (Tex.) Saigon (Vietnam) San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">in copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Thao Ha License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-21 Type The nature or genre of the resource text Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history History Department internship Immigrant experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Sheehan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Thao Ha OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. gang violence OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Oral history of Thao Ha, April 19, 2022 SC027-21 1:27:24 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Education Gangs -- Texas -- Houston Mira Costa College -- California -- Oceanside Refugees -- Vietnam Transitions (Program) Victims of violent crimes gang violence Thao Ha Robert Sheehan mp4 HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.mp4 1:|17(4)|30(1)|39(3)|50(1)|63(17)|75(3)|94(15)|109(3)|123(2)|136(1)|150(5)|157(9)|167(11)|180(4)|193(7)|203(4)|211(13)|221(4)|234(1)|246(1)|256(5)|269(2)|279(11)|291(3)|304(10)|314(8)|322(14)|335(2)|347(13)|360(13)|372(8)|381(10)|393(10)|406(5)|417(6)|427(2)|436(11)|445(16)|454(6)|463(2)|472(6)|484(14)|494(11)|507(3)|518(8)|529(10)|538(4)|544(14)|561(4)|571(16)|583(4)|601(7)|612(14)|625(18)|639(2)|650(7)|663(1)|674(13)|693(4)|705(8)|717(12)|727(14)|738(9)|750(6)|758(1)|769(2)|777(9)|789(5)|800(3)|810(5)|819(13)|831(3)|839(8)|849(4)|859(14)|870(13)|879(8)|888(14)|900(3)|910(2)|919(11)|928(16)|938(2)|951(13)|962(11)|972(15)|982(6) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e0bc9bd3a81619c640e7bc9fc529dc61.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction/ Childhood Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, “Oh my God, it must have been so scary.” (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, “Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives” by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Thao Ha discusses her early childhood. She was born in Vietnam and recounts the story of how she fled the country at the fall of Saigon as a toddler with her parents. She explains that they were processed into the United States as refugees and settled in San Antonio, Texas. HoChi Minh City ; refugees ; Saigon ; San Antonio (Tex.) ; Vietnam ; Vietnamese family 403 Family background/ Parents’ occupations Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or…? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, “How come you weren’t a pilot when you were already a pilot?” And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, “Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.” And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, “Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.” Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Thao Ha discusses her family’s background. She has two younger sisters and one younger brother. Their family also moved around often for their father’s work, and they have lived in San Antonio, TX, Knoxville, TN, Cedar Rapids, IA, and Houston, TX. Her family still resides in Houston. Thao also describes her parents’ occupations. Her father was a pilot in the South Vietnamese Air Force, but he had lost his log books when they fled to the U.S. In order to support his family, her father became a mechanic in the U.S. Thao explains that this is part of the refugee experience. She also explains that her mother was a seamstress who sewed t-shirts for babies in hospitals who was later contracted by an ophthalmologist to sew surgical eye patch garters. Her parents later collaborated with the ophthalmologist and worked together to create surgical eye patches that contained metal parts. Houston (Tex.) ; Mechanic ; pilot ; refugees ; Seamstresses ; Vietnamese family 845 Growing up in a Vietnamese community Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, “Go back to my own country,” you know, “Go back to your country.” And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I—I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, “Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,” and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Thao Ha discusses her experience growing up in a Vietnamese community in Houston, TX. She explains that Houston was an area in which secondary migration occurred for Vietnamese refugees due to job opportunities and affordable housing. Thao describes feeling connected to her community in Houston ; she had many Vietnamese friends in school, she spoke the language at home, and there were Vietnamese stores in town. As a refugee, however, Thao did also experience bullying and racism from other children in her community. It was also during this time that Thao began associating with other kids who had formed gangs. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; refugees ; Vietnamese community ; Vietnamese family ; Vietnamese-American gangs 1137 Relationship with sisters / Gang affiliations in Houston, TX Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, “Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,” right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was—you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you’re in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, “Oh, I fallen and I can't get up,” and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, “They looked like gangsters,” and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, “Oh my God! We know him,” but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Thao Ha discusses the responsibilities of being the eldest child in an immigrant household. She felt that there was a lot of pressure placed on her to set a good example for her younger siblings and to ensure their safety. Thao also explains the culture of gang affiliation for immigrant youth and teenagers. In Houston, Thao describes that gang affiliation was needed as a means for protection against non-Vietnamese teenagers. She further describes her teenage years living in Houston and her experience with friends and family in gangs. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; Refugees ; Vietnamese family ; Vietnamese-American gangs 1921 School years Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, “I did this like three years ago.” (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, “Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now.” So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, “Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author.” And my parents were like, “Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?” And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, “Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.” And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don’t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, “Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I’ll just figure it out later and take the test.” Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it—or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking “Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.” And going more towards thinking “Well maybe I'll just get a job,” because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, “I don't know what I'm going to do.” And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, “That's it. I'll just go get a job.” And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, “Okay,” something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, “Okay, that's it, it's time to—&quot ; it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, “Okay if I go back to school,” which I definitely wanted to do, “I will study something that I want to.” And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, “Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!” And I thought, “Well, I will study law,” so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, “Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,” and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Thao Ha first discusses her middle school and high school years. She recounts excelling in many subjects, but that fighting with students and truancy caused other problems while in the school system. She graduated from high school Cum Laude but describes struggling to find her path in college. Many of her friends were still involved in gang activity, and she did not know where she belonged. She explains that she decided to leave college and find a job to support her family. She also explains that after being shot in a pool hall and seeing more friends enter the prison system, she decided to go back to college and studying sociology. Crime ; Education ; Refugee ; Sociology ; Vietnamese-American gangs 2475 Getting shot at a pool hall Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie’s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, “Okay, we got to get out of here,” right? “We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.” So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, “Okay, we got to get out of here!” And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, “There's a fight outside. We got to go!” So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, “Bang, bang, bang.” We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, “Why does my arm hurt so bad?” And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, “Fuck, I got shot!” right? And everybody's like, “What, what, what!?” And so, I'm like, “Drive to hospital!” Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking “What just happened?” And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe just what happened.” And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, “Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.” And I was just like, “Ow!” It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, “No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this.” Like, “If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here.” I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, “Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,” right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, “Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky.” Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, “Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter.” I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, “Oh, you see that?” And so, he was pointing, and he said, “That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm.” And then he goes, “Oh, you see that? That's her nerve.” So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He’s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, “So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.” So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, “Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis.” And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents “Two millimeters.” That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, “Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up.” Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, “Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!” You know you watch on TV and it's like, “Let me know if you're cold!” Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, “I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it’s just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again.” Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, “What are your goals?” I was like, “Well I want to play volleyball again.” And he was like, “I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work.” Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Thao Ha describes in further detail the night she was shot at an American pool hall called Slick Willie’s. She recalls many Vietnamese at the pool hall that night when a fight broke out. She explains that she was shot as she and her friends were escaping the pool hall. She also describes her experience in the hospital and speaking with police. Thao also describes how being shot affected her volleyball career. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; pool halls ; refugee ; Vietnamese-American gangs 3230 Studying sociology in university Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, “I will write with my right hand!” So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, “Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything,” right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, “People study Vietnamese people?” It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. “Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.” So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, “Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor.” And I will never forget. She's like, “Oh, I know you.” she's like, “You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?” And I said, “No,” and she said, “Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!” And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, “Wow! I feel so special.” So, I said, “Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.” (laughs) And she was like, “You want to go to law school, huh?” So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, “Do you want to work eighty hours a week?” And I was like, “No.” And she said, “Well, you know that’s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality.” She was like, “Have you ever thought about being a professor?” I said, “No.” She said, “Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,” right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, “Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.” And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, “How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.” And I'm like, “Oh, wow.” So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, “I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side.” So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, “Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!” And I'm like, “Oh my God.” (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, “Your daughter should be a professor.” And my parents like, “Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.” (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Thao Ha recounts her decision to study sociology in college. Thao describes how her sociology professor mentored her in undergrad, provided her with research opportunities, and influenced her to go into teaching. Education ; Immigration studies ; refugee ; Sociology ; Teaching 3538 Decision to go into teaching / Dichotomy of identities Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. “Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.” And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, “If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.” So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, “Oh man, that's really what I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore,” and my parents were like, “Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer.” (laughs) “You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?” That's my mom, right? Like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.” So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, “Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.” So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, “Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study.” So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like “I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.” I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Thao Ha continues to discuss her decision to go into teaching. She also describes the dichotomy of her identity while in graduate school. She explains that she felt that she had to let go of her past while earning her PhD. Once Thao began working with individuals in the California prison system, however, she began to reconcile her past and present identities. Crime ; Education ; Identity ; Immigration studies ; refugee ; Refugee Studies ; Sociology ; Teaching ; Vietnamese-American gangs 3936 Future of the judicial system Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, “We should just do away with prisons,” prison abolition, like, “We don't need prisons in society.” And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, “Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society.” So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Thao Ha discusses the future of the judicial system. She explains her complicated opinions regarding the prison abolition movement and how she instead supports abolishing for-profit prisons and lifetime sentences for youth. Crime ; For-profit prisons ; Prison ; Prison abolition movements ; Refugee ; Wrongful convictions 4440 Family experiences with wrongful convictions/ Thoughts on reduced sentencing Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, “Oh, you did that and so you get out,” but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, “Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society,” people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Thao Ha discusses her family experiences with wrongful convictions in the prison system. She explains how a wrongful conviction can turn into a life sentence and how some punishments do not fit the crime. Thao also explains how reduced prison sentencing can depend on each state’s law. She discusses the different reduced sentencing laws in California and Texas. California ; Crime ; Prison ; Reduced sentencing ; Refugee ; Texas ; Wrongful convictions 4814 The value of education/ Experience teaching at a community college Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don’t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, “Well, I learned that on TikTok.” Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, “Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!” I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, “Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?” And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, “I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.” And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, “I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.” So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Thao Ha reflects on the value of education. She understands that a university education is expensive for many students and wants to see education become more accessible. She also discusses her career as a professor in the community college system and explains her passion for connecting with her students in a close-knit learning environment. Community college ; Education ; Refugee ; Sociology ; Teaching Oral history Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at Mira Costa College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I&#039 ; m here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that&#039 ; s where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they&#039 ; ve shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they&#039 ; re in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn&#039 ; t really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents&#039 ; lens, I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Oh my God, it must have been so scary.&quot ; (laughs) And, she&#039 ; s got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn&#039 ; t crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that&#039 ; s the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That&#039 ; s incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn&#039 ; t had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, &quot ; Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives&quot ; by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you&#039 ; re running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father&#039 ; s kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he&#039 ; s just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that&#039 ; s when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that&#039 ; s where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family&#039 ; s still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or--? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, &quot ; How come you weren&#039 ; t a pilot when you were already a pilot?&quot ; And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn&#039 ; t they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren&#039 ; t, that&#039 ; s something they didn&#039 ; t take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, &quot ; Well, I can&#039 ; t be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.&quot ; And they just, you know I think that&#039 ; s part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents&#039 ; generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can&#039 ; t be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you&#039 ; re alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don&#039 ; t think he has any--I&#039 ; m not sure, that was a good question. I&#039 ; ll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it&#039 ; s one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren&#039 ; t really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they&#039 ; re newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here&#039 ; s where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, &quot ; Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.&quot ; Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn&#039 ; t want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That&#039 ; s really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there&#039 ; s a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it&#039 ; s not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn&#039 ; t have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, &quot ; Go back to my own country,&quot ; you know, &quot ; Go back to your country.&quot ; And just the things that you&#039 ; ll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I--I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, &quot ; Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,&quot ; and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that&#039 ; s when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that&#039 ; s like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there&#039 ; s a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there&#039 ; s a dichotomy. There&#039 ; s the Thao at home. And then there&#039 ; s the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that&#039 ; s a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they&#039 ; ll tell you like, &quot ; Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,&quot ; right? Like if there&#039 ; s three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you&#039 ; d have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn&#039 ; t get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I&#039 ; m going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it&#039 ; s kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny&#039 ; s not the right word, but it&#039 ; s interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there&#039 ; s an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don&#039 ; t see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there&#039 ; s another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you&#039 ; re in the math club or if you&#039 ; re in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there&#039 ; s fun in that as well, but there&#039 ; s also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you&#039 ; re not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I&#039 ; m sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don&#039 ; t want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was--you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn&#039 ; t necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you&#039 ; re in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad&#039 ; s youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he&#039 ; s a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he&#039 ; s in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who&#039 ; s his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That&#039 ; s the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you&#039 ; re constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you&#039 ; re in a social setting who you don&#039 ; t want to mess with, and who you don&#039 ; t want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don&#039 ; t know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, &quot ; Oh, I fallen and I can&#039 ; t get up,&quot ; and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they&#039 ; d hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they&#039 ; d rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That&#039 ; s how he described them, &quot ; They looked like gangsters,&quot ; and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn&#039 ; t do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America&#039 ; s Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI&#039 ; s most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America&#039 ; s Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, &quot ; Oh my God! We know him,&quot ; but we didn&#039 ; t know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that&#039 ; s kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I&#039 ; d kind of like to circle back to your education. As you&#039 ; re going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you&#039 ; re doing well in school. But those two don&#039 ; t seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; I did this like three years ago.&quot ; (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn&#039 ; t learning. And I came home and I told my dad, &quot ; Hey, I don&#039 ; t know, dad. Like, I don&#039 ; t know what you want from us. I&#039 ; m sorry that we messed up. And I&#039 ; m sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I&#039 ; m getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I&#039 ; m in the eighth grade now.&quot ; So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don&#039 ; t have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, &quot ; Oh, I&#039 ; d love to be like a journalist or an author.&quot ; And my parents were like, &quot ; Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?&quot ; And I didn&#039 ; t know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, &quot ; Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.&quot ; And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn&#039 ; t let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don&#039 ; t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, &quot ; Oh, they don&#039 ; t take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don&#039 ; t have to go to class. I&#039 ; ll just figure it out later and take the test.&quot ; Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn&#039 ; t work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn&#039 ; t enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it--or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking &quot ; Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.&quot ; And going more towards thinking &quot ; Well maybe I&#039 ; ll just get a job,&quot ; because I need to help my friends figure out what they&#039 ; re doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t know what I&#039 ; m going to do.&quot ; And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn&#039 ; t do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, &quot ; That&#039 ; s it. I&#039 ; ll just go get a job.&quot ; And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, &quot ; Okay,&quot ; something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, &quot ; Okay, that&#039 ; s it, it&#039 ; s time to--&quot ; it&#039 ; s a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that&#039 ; s when I decided, &quot ; Okay if I go back to school,&quot ; which I definitely wanted to do, &quot ; I will study something that I want to.&quot ; And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, &quot ; Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We&#039 ; re just happy you&#039 ; re alive!&quot ; And I thought, &quot ; Well, I will study law,&quot ; so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, &quot ; Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,&quot ; and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there&#039 ; s a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie&#039 ; s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there&#039 ; s problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn&#039 ; t, I didn&#039 ; t really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, &quot ; Okay, we got to get out of here,&quot ; right? &quot ; We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.&quot ; So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We&#039 ; re like, &quot ; Okay, we got to get out of here!&quot ; And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I&#039 ; m recounting this because it&#039 ; s about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would&#039 ; ve left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, &quot ; There&#039 ; s a fight outside. We got to go!&quot ; So, we&#039 ; re running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we&#039 ; re running to the car, that&#039 ; s when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we&#039 ; d already heard, &quot ; Bang, bang, bang.&quot ; We&#039 ; d already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that&#039 ; s when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don&#039 ; t know if you&#039 ; ve never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don&#039 ; t know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn&#039 ; t even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that&#039 ; s kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, &quot ; Why does my arm hurt so bad?&quot ; And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Fuck, I got shot!&quot ; right? And everybody&#039 ; s like, &quot ; What, what, what!?&quot ; And so, I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Drive to hospital!&quot ; Because we can&#039 ; t call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I&#039 ; m in the car backseat and my sister&#039 ; s trying to tie a tourniquet and I&#039 ; m sitting here thinking &quot ; What just happened?&quot ; And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It&#039 ; s like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that&#039 ; s when I was like, &quot ; Oh my God, I can&#039 ; t believe just what happened.&quot ; And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, &quot ; Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.&quot ; And I was just like, &quot ; Ow!&quot ; It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn&#039 ; t as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that&#039 ; s what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, &quot ; No, I don&#039 ; t want to, I don&#039 ; t want to continue this.&quot ; Like, &quot ; If you go shoot up that guy, they&#039 ; re going to come back, shoot us up. Let&#039 ; s just end this here.&quot ; I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn&#039 ; t want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, &quot ; Let&#039 ; s just end here. I&#039 ; m going to trust the legal system. I&#039 ; m going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,&quot ; right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That&#039 ; s intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, &quot ; Oh, she&#039 ; s super lucky. She&#039 ; s super lucky.&quot ; Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, &quot ; Look at her X-ray. There&#039 ; s bullet matter, there&#039 ; s bone matter, there&#039 ; s tissue matter.&quot ; I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, &quot ; Oh, you see that?&quot ; And so, he was pointing, and he said, &quot ; That&#039 ; s her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would&#039 ; ve had to amputate her arm.&quot ; And then he goes, &quot ; Oh, you see that? That&#039 ; s her nerve.&quot ; So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He&#039 ; s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He&#039 ; s like, &quot ; So we&#039 ; re going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don&#039 ; t know how much mobility she&#039 ; ll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she&#039 ; ll have her arm. We won&#039 ; t have to cut it off and she&#039 ; ll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.&quot ; So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, &quot ; Oh, okay. So, I&#039 ; m lucky to be alive. I&#039 ; m lucky not to have amputation. I&#039 ; m lucky to have, not paralysis.&quot ; And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don&#039 ; t know why, but I remember him telling my parents &quot ; Two millimeters.&quot ; That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, &quot ; Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don&#039 ; t screw it up.&quot ; Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It&#039 ; s like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You&#039 ; re so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she&#039 ; s freaking out. She&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!&quot ; You know you watch on TV and it&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Let me know if you&#039 ; re cold!&quot ; Right? Like, because somebody&#039 ; s dying. And I was like, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t think I&#039 ; m dying sis[ter], I think it&#039 ; s just my arm. But I don&#039 ; t know if I&#039 ; m going to ever play volleyball again.&quot ; Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, &quot ; What are your goals?&quot ; I was like, &quot ; Well I want to play volleyball again.&quot ; And he was like, &quot ; I can&#039 ; t promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It&#039 ; s going to be how hard you work.&quot ; Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I&#039 ; m missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn&#039 ; t have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That&#039 ; s good to hear. So, you&#039 ; ve got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there&#039 ; s a lot of scar tissue in there. It&#039 ; s not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it&#039 ; s not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there&#039 ; s just too much scar tissue. So, it can&#039 ; t bend and it gets sore more easily. There&#039 ; s been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it&#039 ; s all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I&#039 ; m assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, &quot ; I will write with my right hand!&quot ; So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there&#039 ; s one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I&#039 ; m being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, &quot ; Oh gosh, if I could just change one person&#039 ; s life, it would mean everything,&quot ; right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; People study Vietnamese people?&quot ; It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. &quot ; Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.&quot ; So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that&#039 ; s why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there&#039 ; s something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, &quot ; Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you&#039 ; re my sociology professor.&quot ; And I will never forget. She&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Oh, I know you.&quot ; she&#039 ; s like, &quot ; You&#039 ; re a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; No,&quot ; and she said, &quot ; Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!&quot ; And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, &quot ; Wow! I feel so special.&quot ; So, I said, &quot ; Well, I came to ask you if there&#039 ; s any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.&quot ; (laughs) And she was like, &quot ; You want to go to law school, huh?&quot ; So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, &quot ; Do you want to work eighty hours a week?&quot ; And I was like, &quot ; No.&quot ; And she said, &quot ; Well, you know that&#039 ; s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I&#039 ; m just giving you a reality.&quot ; She was like, &quot ; Have you ever thought about being a professor?&quot ; I said, &quot ; No.&quot ; She said, &quot ; Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,&quot ; right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, &quot ; Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.&quot ; And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, &quot ; How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.&quot ; And I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Oh, wow.&quot ; So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, &quot ; I want you to present your paper at a conference. It&#039 ; s going to be at the college, and you&#039 ; ll be in front of hundreds of people, but don&#039 ; t worry, I&#039 ; ll be there. I&#039 ; ll be right there by your side.&quot ; So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don&#039 ; t know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, &quot ; Oh, we&#039 ; re so proud of you. You did so well!&quot ; And I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Oh my God.&quot ; (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I&#039 ; m sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, &quot ; Your daughter should be a professor.&quot ; And my parents like, &quot ; Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.&quot ; (laughs) Sheehan: It&#039 ; s nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor&#039 ; s Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. &quot ; Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor&#039 ; s now you can get in and finish your Master&#039 ; s in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you&#039 ; ll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.&quot ; And so literally she laid out this option for me. She&#039 ; s like, &quot ; If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.&quot ; So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, &quot ; Oh man, that&#039 ; s really what I want to do. I don&#039 ; t think I want to I go to law school anymore,&quot ; and my parents were like, &quot ; Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don&#039 ; t want to be a lawyer.&quot ; (laughs) &quot ; You&#039 ; re going to have to lie. You have to lie if you&#039 ; re a lawyer, do you want to do that?&quot ; That&#039 ; s my mom, right? Like, &quot ; Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.&quot ; So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that&#039 ; s a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can&#039 ; t hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I&#039 ; m like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn&#039 ; t what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Just forget about us. We&#039 ; re not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.&quot ; So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn&#039 ; t like, &quot ; Oh, you should totally make this your Master&#039 ; s degree study.&quot ; So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like &quot ; I&#039 ; m not going to tell anybody that&#039 ; s who I was. I don&#039 ; t want them to judge me. I don&#039 ; t want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.&quot ; I don&#039 ; t tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn&#039 ; t until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it&#039 ; s very full circle. So that&#039 ; s where I&#039 ; m at now. And that&#039 ; s kind of the work that I champion, and I&#039 ; m not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn&#039 ; t exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you&#039 ; ve had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that&#039 ; s a really good question, because there&#039 ; s so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, &quot ; We should just do away with prisons,&quot ; prison abolition, like, &quot ; We don&#039 ; t need prisons in society.&quot ; And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it&#039 ; s very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who&#039 ; ve done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It&#039 ; s like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It&#039 ; s a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there&#039 ; s other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they&#039 ; re out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don&#039 ; t think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who&#039 ; ve done long, long prison sentences. So, I&#039 ; m not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they&#039 ; ve done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don&#039 ; t think that that works. There&#039 ; s no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, &quot ; Well, you&#039 ; re done. We just need to be done with you in society.&quot ; So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that&#039 ; s a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we&#039 ; ve seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we&#039 ; re dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that&#039 ; s a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we&#039 ; re allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it&#039 ; s awful. I mean, let&#039 ; s look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They&#039 ; re not fully developed. We do stupid things when we&#039 ; re young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would&#039 ; ve gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would&#039 ; ve went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there&#039 ; s already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I&#039 ; m in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it&#039 ; s one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it&#039 ; s not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let&#039 ; s say there&#039 ; s a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I&#039 ; ve seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you&#039 ; re eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you&#039 ; re forty-eight years old. You&#039 ; ve missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we&#039 ; re incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there&#039 ; s a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn&#039 ; t really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I&#039 ; m not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would&#039 ; ve happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That&#039 ; s a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn&#039 ; t like an automatic, like, &quot ; Oh, you did that and so you get out,&quot ; but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, &quot ; Okay, you&#039 ; ve changed, and you&#039 ; ve rehabilitated, and you&#039 ; re no longer threat to society,&quot ; people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn&#039 ; t necessarily violent, let&#039 ; s say you--I&#039 ; m trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn&#039 ; t inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you&#039 ; re not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there&#039 ; s been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you&#039 ; re probably going do your full time. You&#039 ; re not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I&#039 ; m coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I&#039 ; ll guess I&#039 ; ll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you&#039 ; d like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it&#039 ; s 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It&#039 ; s not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don&#039 ; t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who&#039 ; s twenty years old, and she&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Well, I learned that on TikTok.&quot ; Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they&#039 ; re formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they&#039 ; re like, &quot ; Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!&quot ; I don&#039 ; t think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you&#039 ; ll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That&#039 ; s a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don&#039 ; t mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don&#039 ; t. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn&#039 ; t applied to any universities yet, I didn&#039 ; t qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, &quot ; Man, I&#039 ; ve got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?&quot ; And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that&#039 ; s different from university, but that&#039 ; s also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let&#039 ; s not discount it, given that we&#039 ; re going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we&#039 ; re not in person, right? But we&#039 ; re human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can&#039 ; t untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, &quot ; I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.&quot ; And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.&quot ; So, there&#039 ; s a financial benefit, there&#039 ; s the social benefit, there&#039 ; s the intimidation factor that is less because you&#039 ; re not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, &quot ; Oh my God, it must have been so scary.&quot ; (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, &quot ; Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives&quot ; by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or--? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, &quot ; How come you weren't a pilot when you were already a pilot?&quot ; And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, &quot ; Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.&quot ; And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, &quot ; Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.&quot ; Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, &quot ; Go back to my own country,&quot ; you know, &quot ; Go back to your country.&quot ; And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I--I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, &quot ; Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,&quot ; and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, &quot ; Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,&quot ; right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was--you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you're in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, &quot ; Oh, I fallen and I can't get up,&quot ; and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, &quot ; They looked like gangsters,&quot ; and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, &quot ; Oh my God! We know him,&quot ; but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, &quot ; I did this like three years ago.&quot ; (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, &quot ; Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now.&quot ; So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, &quot ; Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author.&quot ; And my parents were like, &quot ; Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?&quot ; And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, &quot ; Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.&quot ; And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don't know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, &quot ; Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I'll just figure it out later and take the test.&quot ; Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it--or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking &quot ; Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.&quot ; And going more towards thinking &quot ; Well maybe I'll just get a job,&quot ; because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, &quot ; I don't know what I'm going to do.&quot ; And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, &quot ; That's it. I'll just go get a job.&quot ; And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, &quot ; Okay,&quot ; something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, &quot ; Okay, that's it, it's time to--&quot ; it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, &quot ; Okay if I go back to school,&quot ; which I definitely wanted to do, &quot ; I will study something that I want to.&quot ; And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, &quot ; Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!&quot ; And I thought, &quot ; Well, I will study law,&quot ; so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, &quot ; Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,&quot ; and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie's. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, &quot ; Okay, we got to get out of here,&quot ; right? &quot ; We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.&quot ; So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, &quot ; Okay, we got to get out of here!&quot ; And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, &quot ; There's a fight outside. We got to go!&quot ; So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, &quot ; Bang, bang, bang.&quot ; We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, &quot ; Why does my arm hurt so bad?&quot ; And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, &quot ; Fuck, I got shot!&quot ; right? And everybody's like, &quot ; What, what, what!?&quot ; And so, I'm like, &quot ; Drive to hospital!&quot ; Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking &quot ; What just happened?&quot ; And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, &quot ; Oh my God, I can't believe just what happened.&quot ; And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, &quot ; Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.&quot ; And I was just like, &quot ; Ow!&quot ; It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, &quot ; No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this.&quot ; Like, &quot ; If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here.&quot ; I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, &quot ; Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,&quot ; right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, &quot ; Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky.&quot ; Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, &quot ; Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter.&quot ; I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, &quot ; Oh, you see that?&quot ; And so, he was pointing, and he said, &quot ; That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm.&quot ; And then he goes, &quot ; Oh, you see that? That's her nerve.&quot ; So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He's like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, &quot ; So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.&quot ; So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, &quot ; Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis.&quot ; And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents &quot ; Two millimeters.&quot ; That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, &quot ; Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up.&quot ; Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, &quot ; Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!&quot ; You know you watch on TV and it's like, &quot ; Let me know if you're cold!&quot ; Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, &quot ; I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it's just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again.&quot ; Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, &quot ; What are your goals?&quot ; I was like, &quot ; Well I want to play volleyball again.&quot ; And he was like, &quot ; I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work.&quot ; Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, &quot ; I will write with my right hand!&quot ; So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, &quot ; Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything,&quot ; right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, &quot ; People study Vietnamese people?&quot ; It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. &quot ; Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.&quot ; So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, &quot ; Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor.&quot ; And I will never forget. She's like, &quot ; Oh, I know you.&quot ; she's like, &quot ; You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; No,&quot ; and she said, &quot ; Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!&quot ; And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, &quot ; Wow! I feel so special.&quot ; So, I said, &quot ; Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.&quot ; (laughs) And she was like, &quot ; You want to go to law school, huh?&quot ; So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, &quot ; Do you want to work eighty hours a week?&quot ; And I was like, &quot ; No.&quot ; And she said, &quot ; Well, you know that's the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality.&quot ; She was like, &quot ; Have you ever thought about being a professor?&quot ; I said, &quot ; No.&quot ; She said, &quot ; Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,&quot ; right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, &quot ; Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.&quot ; And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, &quot ; How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.&quot ; And I'm like, &quot ; Oh, wow.&quot ; So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, &quot ; I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side.&quot ; So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, &quot ; Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!&quot ; And I'm like, &quot ; Oh my God.&quot ; (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, &quot ; Your daughter should be a professor.&quot ; And my parents like, &quot ; Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.&quot ; (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. &quot ; Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.&quot ; And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, &quot ; If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.&quot ; So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, &quot ; Oh man, that's really what I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore,&quot ; and my parents were like, &quot ; Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer.&quot ; (laughs) &quot ; You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?&quot ; That's my mom, right? Like, &quot ; Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.&quot ; So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, &quot ; Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.&quot ; So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, &quot ; Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study.&quot ; So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like &quot ; I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.&quot ; I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, &quot ; We should just do away with prisons,&quot ; prison abolition, like, &quot ; We don't need prisons in society.&quot ; And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, &quot ; Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society.&quot ; So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, &quot ; Oh, you did that and so you get out,&quot ; but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, &quot ; Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society,&quot ; people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don't know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, &quot ; Well, I learned that on TikTok.&quot ; Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, &quot ; Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!&quot ; I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, &quot ; Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?&quot ; And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, &quot ; I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.&quot ; And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, &quot ; I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.&quot ; So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.xml HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ha, Thao. Interview April 19, 2022 Description An account of the resource Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at MiraCosta College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-21 Subject The topic of the resource Education Gangs -- Texas -- Houston MiraCosta College -- Transitions Program Refugees -- Vietnam Transitions (Program) Victims of violent crimes Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-19 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thao Ha Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Houston (Tex.) Oceanside (Calif.) Vietnam Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Thao Ha Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history History Department internship Immigrant experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1889cecb528454849ec8fbed1d12c9ea.mp3 69e8fb585d91537bbcd272920b5d0c87 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral history of Theresa Rios, April 7, 2022 Description An account of the resource Theresa Rios is a retired Escondido librarian, where she created Las Embajadores Biblioteca. In this interview, Theresa discusses teaching children to read, empowering children to learn, and how her childhood impacted her passion for teaching children to read and love learning. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Theresa Rios Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madison Teater Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-07 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Arizona Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Theresa Rios License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d3c147170d930bc7f12d9f580bba4753.pdf ad9279d0bc173837718e150a224623cd PDF Text Text TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS MJ Teater: All right. It is recording now. All right. So today is Thursday, April 6th, 2022 at 1:07 PM. I am MJ Teater, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today I'm interviewing narrator Theresa Rios for the University Library Special Collections Oral History Project. Theresa, thank you for being here with me today. Theresa Rios: You're very welcome. Teater: <laughs> All right. Just to get started, can you introduce yourself, like, say your name and when you were, or maybe not when you were born, but where you were born? Rios: Mm-hmm. My name is Theresa Rios. I was born in Clifton, Arizona. Teater: I'm going to ask you a few questions about your childhood and maybe your upbringing. So, how long have you lived in San Diego if you were born in Arizona? Rios: I came to Escondido in 1970. I brought my four children and myself and we moved here and my exhusband and I have been here for fifty years. I lived in La Jolla for five years. I love Escondido. I came back to Escondido in I believe, [19]78. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And I have been here ever since. Teater: Wow. I love that. That's so cool. So at what point did you become a librarian? Or what was your journey to become a librarian? Rios: My journey was-- I have this write up from this Hispanic newspaper and it tells me here when I started the library was in... back in, oh my goodness. I’m little nervous, but not really. Anyway, I came, I started working, I came back to Escondido. I started going to Palomar College and from there I met my husband, Dan Rios. After that, I left Palomar College and I went to the employment office and they sent me to the [Escondido Public] library and I got this job at the library and I thought, my goodness, I love this job. And so I started by being a library assistant. And from there, they started giving me some privileges about -being Hispanic, there was no Hispanic library books for either the children and even the adults. So I Transcribed by MJ Teater 1 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS started-- Oh my goodness. I started, well translating for the library, whatever they needed. Anytime they needed a Hispanic to translate something, they would call me. I started teaching some of the librarians, what to, how to discuss things in Spanish or to answer in Spanish when someone came to the library and had no Spanish experience or could not. But there was no one that would write anything. I transferred papers, whatever they needed. Then I started seeing that the children, I started saying stories to the children and I noticed where a lot of the Hispanic children did not understand what we were saying [in English], what I was saying to them. And, so then I told my supervisor, I think we should start a Hispanic program – a storytelling time. And so he said, yes, whatever, it would be wonderful. Go ahead. Whatever you think. And at that time, I had a lot of the mothers that came with their children sometimes, and they also didn't know English. And so I decided to start Las Embajadores de Escondido. And they, they just thought again, Liz Painter was one of them. She helped, she helped a lot, because she was very friendly with all the people and she also wanted us to try something different. So again, I said, yes, let's do this. Let's tell the stories to the children in Spanish. And so there's a nice picture. The newspaper came over -- The [Escondido] Times Advocate -- and I have this, I'm sorry. Teater: It's okay. Do you want me to pause the recording? Rios: Yes. One moment. Okay. There's a very nice picture of me with this book that I would tell this story, Las Zapatitos Colorados, “The Red Shoes” and with this story, I would tell all the children to be very careful about who they went with, how not to go with just anyone and just sort of try to... tell them to be cautious, but at the same time, there was a lot to learn. We had a lot to learn. But you you'd have to see this, this article. And do you read Spanish? Teater: I know enough to muddle through it, you know <laugh> Rios: Oh good, good. Because this whole page is in Spanish. It's from the Hispanico, Hispanic Times. And it was way back in 2000. June 22nd, 2000. And it says Theresa Rios, nueva de delegate al club del parlementaria. Parliamentary. Teater: Oh cool. Rios: And before that well I was at Palomar College. I was with Concerned Citizens of Escondido at A Day With Your Neighbor Luncheon on May 7th, 1982: Theresa Rios, Pichacon Lupita, and George Lopez. And there's my boss over here. He's not mentioned, Jon Ericson. Anyway, there's a whole page of me with a picture of the, telling the story to the children. And I would like for you to see that, cause it just explains a lot. I had no idea I had done so much. <laughter>, it's bringing back all these memories and I loved it. I mean the, the library to me was like home. I mean wonderful. Teater: That's fantastic. Rios: Transcribed by MJ Teater 2 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS Anyway, again, like I say, anything you asked me to do, whether it was a police department or it was the library or my bosses, the children were very important to get them started learning. I still have many friends here in Escondido that when I see, we talk about all the things that we did. And the library I've been going there and Roberta, she was my dear friend there. Just a lot of the gals that were, that are still there. Some of them the other day I went to the library and there was Francine, this one, she said “Theresa! How are you? I haven't seen you in,” you know, things like that. And I just love the library. I love going back. I'm just gonna kinda stay in touch, you know? Teater: Yeah. That's, that's great. That's so great. Rios: Back to, I mean, back to the -- what other question, I mean, I think I mentioned... Teater: That was a good starting point. So, can you tell me more about the Embajadores program? Rios: Yes, the Embajadores we, like I said, the children's mothers, some of them, some were elderly ladies that came to the library that were my friends that I would tell them, come join us. I mean, come join the Embajadores. We want every child in Escondido to have a library card. Teater: Oh. Rios: I want every child to know, to learn how to read at a very young age. And so they came, they came from all over and we would have -- one time we had this salsa contest, not a contest, but everybody brought different kinds of salsa and my salsa won a blue ribbon. <laughs> Teater: Ooh. Rios: It was technically a blue ribbon. It was just a wonderful time. And the people came, we would have different places that would sponsor us. One of them was El Tapatilla in Escondido would send food. Again, a lot of stuff that's in this article brings back a lot of memories. But the Embajadores came and they gave tours. I taught them to give tours through the library. I taught 'em to sit and talk with people that need just answers in Spanish or just to get together with other ladies that, that spoke Spanish only. And then bring them in as far as, trying to -- if they wanted an education, if they wanted to join literacy [program], things like that. I mean, literacy was just starting; the literacy program. And, and we had, you know, different people teaching other people Spanish or English or... Teater: And about when were these programs happening? Rios: That was back in that era, which is, you know... [unclear] There's a lot of paperwork that have here that I I've been going through, but you know, it's been so long. It's been-Teater: Transcribed by MJ Teater 3 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS Yeah. Yeah. Well that's okay. We can keep going. So, can you explain how, like early reading programs are impactful for a child's life? Like why that was so important to you? Rios: Because when I went to-- the reason that I believe this is so important is because I also, when I went to started kindergarten, I did not know a word of English. Very little, very, very little. My parents did not, we did not speak English at home. My father knew a little more than my mother, my mother didn't. I mean, because of her hardships, her mother died when she was, I believe, in third grade, I'm not sure, but the schools were what, you know, and she lived in a ranch and she was left with four or five or six little ones that she helped grow up. And a baby that my, her, my grandmother, her mother died. So my mother always thought education was very important. You need it. She would get very upset. Um, so I knew that... And then I have -- Me marrying so young and having four children. I decided, nuh-uh, if I would've had this education before, I would have, you know, not being so afraid of trying of being around people that could teach me that could read, could that would teach me. I mean, there was no nothing in Clifton Arizona where I was born. There was, there was some things, but not enough to inspire me at a young age. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And so I believe that if the children could get it right into them and tell me their stories, and then I would try to direct them when I would ask questions. Well, what do you do? How do you read at home? Do you do this? No... Do you like coming to the library? Oh yes. We like it. Do you like to hear stories? Oh, yes. And then I would ask some of the children little questions. I don't know if I should say this, but What do you do? Oh, we drink tequila. Teater: <laugh> oh, no, Rios: We would laugh over that That. I said, “Oh, no, we gotta get this--” <laugh>. I mean, I don't mean to it it's part of growing up it's in their environment, their family so again, I, I would see parents and I would say, well, you know, good, this is not so good. But, oh my God. And it just, I mean, you'd have to talk to my supervisor, which was Joanne, oh, my away. Well, and Laura Mitchell was also one of my bosses. And like I said, city manager at the time, I can't, it's gone right now, but I'll have to get those names if you need 'em. But they would, give me card blank for whatever I wanted to do. I was so fortunate and so lucky and, a lot of like Graham Humphrey, he was the head of the library at the time. And he knew my husband very well. Dan Teater: Mm-hmm <affirmative>, Rios: Transcribed by MJ Teater 4 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS And again, all I had to do was, well, Mr. Humphrey told me I want more Hispanic children here. I want, I don't-- at the time, I don't know whether he meant to say anything like this, but he said, I don't wanna see all this white Anglo-Saxons <affirmative> and I thought, oh my God. I mean because I believe that they're the white or the black or the Hispanic. We, they all need to learn everybody. <affirmative> Everybody needs to get some sense when they're young of what's going on and reading stories. I had no prejudice whatsoever, but I also understood the situation: who had the opportunities at home who didn't. And the ones that didn't of course would take priority of my attention, because I would have to explain myself more to them or listen to them a little more, so that they give me ideas of what, how I could help and how everybody in the library could help. Not just me. I didn't want, whenever somebody treated any of 'em with disrespect, I would just jump up and say, no, it's not the way we treat people. I mean, I had to fight everybody, not fight, but kind of. Teater: But yeah, I know what you mean. Rios: And I'm still doing it. I still do it. Even in my church at resurrection and everybody is welcome. Everybody is a child of Jesus. Everybody deserves a right to be heard. Of course, sometimes people are not in the mood to be heard or this and that. But with me, they'll come and tell me anything. and I feel how can I say I, a lot of humility that they can do that with me. But I feel if they're wrong, I'll tell them if they're hurting, I'll listen. And if they just wanna talk, that's good too. So we get along and that's how I get along at the library, and all my life. Teater: That’s Fantastic Rios: I guess this is how I tried to be. And what else can I tell you? Teater: <laugh> all right. Let me, let me look through my questions because you're, you're answering so many of them. So what can library librarians who only speak English do to support the Spanish speakers of, you know, Escondido and San Diego? Rios: What could they do? Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: Is that the question? Teater: Transcribed by MJ Teater 5 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS Yes. Rios: They could take classes in Spanish mm-hmm <affirmative> They could have someone there to help interpret. They just like, you know, now a lot of people are coming like from other countries and we have to continue to learn. <affirmative> Although I'm fluent Spanish and English, I love French, but you know, I'm not that good at it. And I I'm very close to my Filipino friends. I have a daughter-in-law that's married to my son and a wonderful family. And here in Escondido, I very belong to my church at resurrection eighties and the man, all we are very good friends on the counter. I am a greeter at my church on Sundays. <affirmative> I, we all work together. So Like I say, whoever walks into that door always gets a good morning from me when I am greeting. And a lot of them too. And I say, we need to be very kind, but at the same time we need to. But anybody just run out, you know, they're having a problem. One, we have to kinda-Teater: What other, are there any other initiatives that you worked on while you were in the library? It sounds like you had a lot of support from your supervisors. Rios: Well I was on the desk. I started on the desk. Like I said, greeting people and what do they need? Or they would tell me what I need to find out this, I need to go to this desk or I need to go here. I need to, I need to know about that. So I would direct them to wherever. That was part of our job, to direct people, to wherever they needed to go and help them. If they couldn't find something, if they had the librarian on the desk was busy we could try and just keep them moving. But at the same time, I had meetings with several people. I mean they have this special room. Can't think of it right now. I mean, it's just upstairs, but I would do whatever it took to for the children to have special things going on. I mean, yeah, I have to go back. But if you see this picture of me taken when I would read stories, oh, and I got, I got this job at the library, like I said, way back then, but my husband and I were planning a trip to Mexico City, Mexico, a three week trip through me to Mexico. And I told my boss, I told Joanne Greenberg. I said, I think this was in August that I got hired around that time. And in December, we were planning to go to Mexico for three weeks, four weeks. And I said, I would have to work here, but I have to ask, my husband and I are going to go to Mexico, and I want to go very badly. I've never been to Mexico City. And, if you will, let me go. And, and let me come back to this job. I promise to work as hard as I can. And, you know, they let me do this after just being hired a couple of months. And I was all very grateful for that. We had a lovely time in Mexico. We had children running after our van and I mean things I saw and and my husband being a photographer, took pictures of the kids and the dresses, the colors. It was amazing. So I came back to the library and <affirmative>, I had all those stories in me from, for the children and for, you know, even adults. Teater: Mm-hmm <affirmative> sounds like, that sounds awesome. Rios: Seeing the no education, you know, a lot of we were out in the mountains where there were, and I said, and here they get a chance to come to America. And here we have all these mentees for them. So again, Mr. Humphrey had told me just whatever you need to do. And Joanne Greenberg the same. And then Transcribed by MJ Teater 6 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS Laura Mitchell, she's whatever I wanted to do till my husband got sick. And then I said, I can't anymore, I have to-- <affirmative> He had Gotten this infection that he hardly couldn't walk for about a year. Teater: Oh no. Rios: But I took care of him. And, and he, we did wonderful, I mean, far as, and he came out of it and now he's on dialysis. He has been for five years. And again, it's a challenge just every day is a something new, but, but I live a quiet life. And if I can be, I tell people at my church, I will be here, but if I can't-- <affirmative> And, and that's the way I said, if you want me that way fine. If not, well, I have to something else, because as far as my church and my masses, I can always see them at home. I can, you know, do other things, especially now that everything is on TV. So, yeah. But at the same time, I'm very close to my priests that we built this new church here in Escondido, Resurrection, and I have had a lot of opportunities to help there. And again, I meet a lot of my people from the library and invite 'em there and come and see and bring your children. And again, I'm still involved. Teater: So you're still involved with children's programs then? Rios: Not as much as I would like to be, because, like I said, I can't commit myself too much because of my husband. Teater: Yeah. Rios: I have things that I need to do, but any chance I have, and they're having something really special, I try to attend. Teater: That's Nice. Rios: Or I just, I have a kind connection with the children at the church. And, and I just love it; just even when they just say good morning, back to me, or hello or goodbye. And excited and on their way. And I'm on my way too. Teater: Sounds awesome. What has your-- what has connecting to children, or what has connecting to children meant to you? Like over the years as a librarian? Rios: Transcribed by MJ Teater 7 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS What has connected mean to children? Teater: No. What has your connection with children meant to you as a librarian over the years? Rios: The in, oh, I just love to hear a child read. I love to just see their little faces when they hear a story. I'm just know, like I said, I have four of my own and, and a lot of nieces, I come from a family of ten, five brothers and five sisters. So I have nieces and nephews. And, anytime I'm Aunt Terry or Aunt T, or <laugh>, you know, we have a connection with, and in the library, of course they all know that, that I worked there. Anybody could come and, and visit their friends, cousins, nieces, nephews. And one time I had my grandson at the library. I baby him in the summer. Because my daughter and her husband had business to take care of up in Woodland, California. I mean Auburn. <affirmative> And Mr. Humphrey says, oh, my, my grandson was, I think he was seven or, or so seven years anyway, I had him in, enrolled him into the Boys and Girls Club. And so I had my friend Darlene from the library take him and they came back, both of them crying. <laugh> Teater: Oh, no. Rios: My grandson wouldn't stay. He would, he wouldn't stay. And I was working at the library. I couldn't, you know, I've taken care of customers. And so they came back crying, and then I said, okay, you come to the back. And I set him down there and I said, don't you move, you stay right there and eat your lunch or whatever. And anyway Mr. Humphrey was very kind, he never said a word to me about, yeah. Was that of order or anything. I mean, he let me do whatever was necessary for me to continue working there. Teater: I love that. That's so sweet. Rios: My grandson. I mean he loved being there at the library with me. <laugh> can I say, I mean, family always came first with me and I tell all my, the people that I know when they can't attend a meeting, that I, or something that I'm involved with, I say, and they say, my family, my doc, or doctors do whatever families first you take care of that, do not worry about anything else. And I'm saying it's family first when they need whatever they need. But at the same time I live my own life. It's a different life because my husband and I have been married forty-one years. Cause he's my third husband. So I have to do what is necessary to have a good life. And at the same time, do what what's good for other people, especially children and others. But when I can't do it, I can't do it. Like I said, in my home comes first right now with my ill husband has been ill for over 20 years. Teater: Oh no. Rios: Transcribed by MJ Teater 8 2022-05-13 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07 THERESA RIOS And he retired. So, but he manages, he's a wonderful person. I mean, I could not ask for a better mate. Teater: Well, that's good to hear. I think those are all of my questions. Is there anything else that you want to add to your experience as a librarian or anything about that? Rios: Well, I just want you to make sure that, is there any way I can mail this literature to you, this newspaper articles and some of the things that I've did or I'll tell you, do you ever get to the pioneer room? Teater: I do not. So for here, I'm gonna pause the recording. --All right. Well, thank you so much for your time, Theresa. It was really great talking to you and learning all about your experience as a librarian and your impact on literacy in Escondido. It sounds so fulfilling. Thank you for your time today. Rios: You're so welcome. And Jay, what, what was your name, Jay? Teater: What? My name is MJ. Rios: MJ. I knew I had one right. Okay. MJ, thank you for calling me and giving me the opportunity to say all these things that I hope will help other people. Teater: Yeah, they will. Thank you so much for your time today. Rios: You're so welcome. Teater: Okay. All right. Have a good rest of your day. Rios: You too goodly. Teater: All right. Bye. Bye. Transcribed by MJ Teater 9 2022-05-13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rios, Theresa. Interview transcript. April 7, 2022. Description An account of the resource Theresa Rios is a retired Escondido librarian, where she created Las Embajadores Biblioteca. In this interview, Theresa discusses teaching children to read, empowering children to learn, and how her childhood impacted her passion for teaching children to read and love learning. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Theresa Rios Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource MJ Teater Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-07 Subject The topic of the resource Latine Americans Libraries -- Literacy Public libraries Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Arizona Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. 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Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Madison Teater Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Theresa Rios OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RiosTheresa_MadisonTeater-2022-04-06.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Las Embajadores de Escondido OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 2022-04-07 Oral history of Theresa Rios, April 7, 2022 SC027-17 00:34:29 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Escondido (Calif.) Hispanic Americans Libraries -- Literacy Public libraries Las Embajadores de Escondido Theresa Rios Madison Teater m4a RiosTheresa_MadisonTeater-2022-04-06.m4a 1:|24(4)|43(1)|52(14)|59(1)|66(7)|72(14)|86(14)|107(4)|122(11)|141(8)|159(6)|174(7)|193(3)|205(3)|219(12)|235(1)|249(11)|256(6)|271(5)|289(13)|315(15)|326(1)|337(12)|345(15)|352(7)|367(2)|383(1)|406(3)|433(13)|440(10)|456(13)|472(3)|491(7)|510(11) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1889cecb528454849ec8fbed1d12c9ea.mp3 Other audio English 68 The Introduction of Theresa Rios / Becoming a librarian Teater: &lt ; laughs&gt ; All right. Just to get started, can you introduce yourself, like, say your name and when you were, or maybe not when you were born, but where you were born? Rios: Mm-hmm. My name is Theresa Rios. I was born in Clifton, Arizona. Teater: I'm going to ask you a few questions about your childhood and maybe your upbringing. So, how long have you lived in San Diego if you were born in Arizona? Rios: I came to Escondido in 1970. I brought my four children and myself and we moved here and my ex-husband and I have been here for fifty years. I lived in La Jolla for five years. I love Escondido. I came back to Escondido in I believe, [19]78. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And I have been here ever since. Teater: Wow. I love that. That's so cool. So at what point did you become a librarian? Or what was your journey to become a librarian? Rios: My journey was-- I have this write up from this Hispanic newspaper and it tells me here when I started the library was in... back in, oh my goodness. I’m little nervous, but not really. Anyway, I came, I started working, I came back to Escondido. I started going to Palomar College and from there I met my husband, Dan Rios. After that, I left Palomar College and I went to the employment office and they sent me to the [Escondido Public] library and I got this job at the library and I thought, my goodness, I love this job. And so I started by being a library assistant. And from there, they started giving me some privileges about -- being Hispanic, there was no Hispanic library books for either the children and even the adults. So I started-- Oh my goodness. I started, well translating for the library, whatever they needed. Anytime they needed a Hispanic to translate something, they would call me. I started teaching some of the librarians, what to, how to discuss things in Spanish or to answer in Spanish when someone came to the library and had no Spanish experience or could not. But there was no one that would write anything. I transferred papers, whatever they needed. Then I started seeing that the children, I started saying stories to the children and I noticed where a lot of the Hispanic children did not understand what we were saying [in English], what I was saying to them. And, so then I told my supervisor, I think we should start a Hispanic program – a storytelling time. And so he said, yes, whatever, it would be wonderful. Go ahead. Whatever you think. And at that time, I had a lot of the mothers that came with their children sometimes, and they also didn't know English. And so I decided to start Las Embajadores de Escondido. And they, they just thought again, Liz Painter was one of them. She helped, she helped a lot, because she was very friendly with all the people and she also wanted us to try something different. So again, I said, yes, let's do this. Let's tell the stories to the children in Spanish. And so there's a nice picture. The newspaper came over -- The [Escondido] Times Advocate -- and I have this, I'm sorry. Teater: It's okay. Do you want me to pause the recording? Rios: Yes. One moment. Okay. There's a very nice picture of me with this book that I would tell this story, Las Zapatitos Colorados, “The Red Shoes” and with this story, I would tell all the children to be very careful about who they went with, how not to go with just anyone and just sort of try to... tell them to be cautious, but at the same time, there was a lot to learn. We had a lot to learn. But you you'd have to see this, this article. And do you read Spanish? Teater: I know enough to muddle through it, you know &lt ; laugh&gt ; Rios: Oh good, good. Because this whole page is in Spanish. It's from the Hispanico, Hispanic Times. And it was way back in 2000. June 22nd, 2000. And it says Theresa Rios, nueva de delegate al club del parlementaria. Parliamentary. Teater: Oh cool. Rios: And before that well I was at Palomar College. I was with Concerned Citizens of Escondido at A Day With Your Neighbor Luncheon on May 7th, 1982: Theresa Rios, Pichacon Lupita, and George Lopez. And there's my boss over here. He's not mentioned, Jon Ericson. Anyway, there's a whole page of me with a picture of the, telling the story to the children. And I would like for you to see that, cause it just explains a lot. I had no idea I had done so much. &lt ; laughter&gt ; , it's bringing back all these memories and I loved it. I mean the, the library to me was like home. I mean wonderful. Teater: That's fantastic. Rios: Anyway, again, like I say, anything you asked me to do, whether it was a police department or it was the library or my bosses, the children were very important to get them started learning. I still have many friends here in Escondido that when I see, we talk about all the things that we did. And the library I've been going there and Roberta, she was my dear friend there. Just a lot of the gals that were, that are still there. Some of them the other day I went to the library and there was Francine, this one, she said “Theresa! How are you? I haven't seen you in,” you know, things like that. And I just love the library. I love going back. I'm just gonna kinda stay in touch, you know? Teater: Yeah. That's, that's great. That's so great. Rios: Back to, I mean, back to the -- what other question, I mean, I think I mentioned... Theresa Rios talks about moving from Arizona to California and how she came to be a librarian in the city of Escondido. Clifton, Arizona ; Escondido ; La Jolla ; librarian ; Palomar College ; Spanish ; Translator Becoming a librarian ; Spanish programs ; Theresa Rios in the Hispanico newspaper ; Translating for the public library 601 The Embajadores Program Teater: That was a good starting point. So, can you tell me more about the Embajadores program? Rios: Yes, the Embajadores we, like I said, the children's mothers, some of them, some were elderly ladies that came to the library that were my friends that I would tell them, come join us. I mean, come join the Embajadores. We want every child in Escondido to have a library card. Teater: Oh. Rios: I want every child to know, to learn how to read at a very young age. And so they came, they came from all over and we would have -- one time we had this salsa contest, not a contest, but everybody brought different kinds of salsa and my salsa won a blue ribbon. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Teater: Ooh. Rios: It was technically a blue ribbon. It was just a wonderful time. And the people came, we would have different places that would sponsor us. One of them was El Tapatilla in Escondido would send food. Again, a lot of stuff that's in this article brings back a lot of memories. But the Embajadores came and they gave tours. I taught them to give tours through the library. I taught 'em to sit and talk with people that need just answers in Spanish or just to get together with other ladies that, that spoke Spanish only. And then bring them in as far as, trying to -- if they wanted an education, if they wanted to join literacy [program], things like that. I mean, literacy was just starting ; the literacy program. And, and we had, you know, different people teaching other people Spanish or English or... Teater: And about when were these programs happening? Rios: That was back in that era, which is, you know... [unclear] There's a lot of paperwork that have here that I I've been going through, but you know, it's been so long. It's been-- Teater: Yeah. Yeah. Well that's okay. We can keep going. So, can you explain how, like early reading programs are impactful for a child's life? Like why that was so important to you? Rios: Because when I went to-- the reason that I believe this is so important is because I also, when I went to started kindergarten, I did not know a word of English. Very little, very, very little. My parents did not, we did not speak English at home. My father knew a little more than my mother, my mother didn't. I mean, because of her hardships, her mother died when she was, I believe, in third grade, I'm not sure, but the schools were what, you know, and she lived in a ranch and she was left with four or five or six little ones that she helped grow up. And a baby that my, her, my grandmother, her mother died. So my mother always thought education was very important. You need it. She would get very upset. Um, so I knew that... And then I have -- Me marrying so young and having four children. I decided, nuh-uh, if I would've had this education before, I would have, you know, not being so afraid of trying of being around people that could teach me that could read, could that would teach me. I mean, there was no nothing in Clifton Arizona where I was born. There was, there was some things, but not enough to inspire me at a young age. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And so I believe that if the children could get it right into them and tell me their stories, and then I would try to direct them when I would ask questions. Well, what do you do? How do you read at home? Do you do this? No... Do you like coming to the library? Oh yes. We like it. Do you like to hear stories? Oh, yes. And then I would ask some of the children little questions. I don't know if I should say this, but What do you do? Oh, we drink tequila. Teater: &lt ; laugh&gt ; oh, no, Rios: We would laugh over that That. I said, “Oh, no, we gotta get this--” &lt ; laugh&gt ; . I mean, I don't mean to it it's part of growing up it's in their environment, their family so again, I, I would see parents and I would say, well, you know, good, this is not so good. But, oh my God. And it just, I mean, you'd have to talk to my supervisor, which was Joanne, oh, my away. Well, and Laura Mitchell was also one of my bosses. And like I said, city manager at the time, I can't, it's gone right now, but I'll have to get those names if you need 'em. But they would, give me card blank for whatever I wanted to do. I was so fortunate and so lucky and, a lot of like Graham Humphrey, he was the head of the library at the time. And he knew my husband very well. Dan Teater: Mm-hmm &lt ; affirmative&gt ; , Rios: And again, all I had to do was, well, Mr. Humphrey told me I want more Hispanic children here. I want, I don't-- at the time, I don't know whether he meant to say anything like this, but he said, I don't wanna see all this white Anglo-Saxons &lt ; affirmative&gt ; and I thought, oh my God. I mean because I believe that they're the white or the black or the Hispanic. We, they all need to learn everybody. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; Everybody needs to get some sense when they're young of what's going on and reading stories. I had no prejudice whatsoever, but I also understood the situation: who had the opportunities at home who didn't. And the ones that didn't of course would take priority of my attention, because I would have to explain myself more to them or listen to them a little more, so that they give me ideas of what, how I could help and how everybody in the library could help. Not just me. I didn't want, whenever somebody treated any of 'em with disrespect, I would just jump up and say, no, it's not the way we treat people. I mean, I had to fight everybody, not fight, but kind of. Teater: But yeah, I know what you mean. Rios: And I'm still doing it. I still do it. Even in my church at resurrection and everybody is welcome. Everybody is a child of Jesus. Everybody deserves a right to be heard. Of course, sometimes people are not in the mood to be heard or this and that. But with me, they'll come and tell me anything. and I feel how can I say I, a lot of humility that they can do that with me. But I feel if they're wrong, I'll tell them if they're hurting, I'll listen. And if they just wanna talk, that's good too. So we get along and that's how I get along at the library, and all my life. Theresa Rios talks about starting the Emajadores program, which gave Spanish speakers accessible resources in the library such as tours of the grounds, children's story times, and other elements for women, children, and the elderly. early reading programs ; El Tapatilla ; Embajadores program ; library ; literacy program dual-language learning ; Embajadores Program ; Library learning programs ; Spanish speaker ; Starting reading literacy programs at the library 1196 How to get Involved Teater: &lt ; laugh&gt ; all right. Let me, let me look through my questions because you're, you're answering so many of them. So what can library librarians who only speak English do to support the Spanish speakers of, you know, Escondido and San Diego? Rios: What could they do? Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: Is that the question? Teater: Yes. Rios: They could take classes in Spanish mm-hmm &lt ; affirmative&gt ; They could have someone there to help interpret. They just like, you know, now a lot of people are coming like from other countries and we have to continue to learn. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; Although I'm fluent Spanish and English, I love French, but you know, I'm not that good at it. And I I'm very close to my Filipino friends. I have a daughter-in-law that's married to my son and a wonderful family. And here in Escondido, I very belong to my church at resurrection eighties and the man, all we are very good friends on the counter. I am a greeter at my church on Sundays. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I, we all work together. So Like I say, whoever walks into that door always gets a good morning from me when I am greeting. And a lot of them too. And I say, we need to be very kind, but at the same time we need to. But anybody just run out, you know, they're having a problem. One, we have to kinda-- Teater: What other, are there any other initiatives that you worked on while you were in the library? It sounds like you had a lot of support from your supervisors. Rios: Well I was on the desk. I started on the desk. Like I said, greeting people and what do they need? Or they would tell me what I need to find out this, I need to go to this desk or I need to go here. I need to, I need to know about that. So I would direct them to wherever. That was part of our job, to direct people, to wherever they needed to go and help them. If they couldn't find something, if they had the librarian on the desk was busy we could try and just keep them moving. But at the same time, I had meetings with several people. I mean they have this special room. Can't think of it right now. I mean, it's just upstairs, but I would do whatever it took to for the children to have special things going on. I mean, yeah, I have to go back. But if you see this picture of me taken when I would read stories, oh, and I got, I got this job at the library, like I said, way back then, but my husband and I were planning a trip to Mexico City, Mexico, a three week trip through me to Mexico. And I told my boss, I told Joanne Greenberg. I said, I think this was in August that I got hired around that time. And in December, we were planning to go to Mexico for three weeks, four weeks. And I said, I would have to work here, but I have to ask, my husband and I are going to go to Mexico, and I want to go very badly. I've never been to Mexico City. And, if you will, let me go. And, and let me come back to this job. I promise to work as hard as I can. And, you know, they let me do this after just being hired a couple of months. And I was all very grateful for that. We had a lovely time in Mexico. We had children running after our van and I mean things I saw and and my husband being a photographer, took pictures of the kids and the dresses, the colors. It was amazing. So I came back to the library and &lt ; affirmative&gt ; , I had all those stories in me from, for the children and for, you know, even adults. Teater: Mm-hmm &lt ; affirmative&gt ; sounds like, that sounds awesome. Rios: Seeing the no education, you know, a lot of we were out in the mountains where there were, and I said, and here they get a chance to come to America. And here we have all these mentees for them. So again, Mr. Humphrey had told me just whatever you need to do. And Joanne Greenberg the same. And then Laura Mitchell, she's whatever I wanted to do till my husband got sick. And then I said, I can't anymore, I have to-- &lt ; affirmative&gt ; He had Gotten this infection that he hardly couldn't walk for about a year. Teater: Oh no. Rios: But I took care of him. And, and he, we did wonderful, I mean, far as, and he came out of it and now he's on dialysis. He has been for five years. And again, it's a challenge just every day is a something new, but, but I live a quiet life. And if I can be, I tell people at my church, I will be here, but if I can't-- &lt ; affirmative&gt ; And, and that's the way I said, if you want me that way fine. If not, well, I have to something else, because as far as my church and my masses, I can always see them at home. I can, you know, do other things, especially now that everything is on TV. So, yeah. But at the same time, I'm very close to my priests that we built this new church here in Escondido, Resurrection, and I have had a lot of opportunities to help there. And again, I meet a lot of my people from the library and invite 'em there and come and see and bring your children. And again, I'm still involved. Theresa rios discusses how Escondido Public Library and other libaries can support non-English speakers and become more accessible and inclusive of people of different backgrounds and speak different languages. classes ; library ; Mexico City ; Spanish speakers ; support Accessibility in Libraries ; Escondido Public Library ; How libraries can be more inclusive to non-English speakers 1659 Connection with children as a librarian Teater: So you're still involved with children's programs then? Rios: Not as much as I would like to be, because, like I said, I can't commit myself too much because of my husband. Teater: Yeah. Rios: I have things that I need to do, but any chance I have, and they're having something really special, I try to attend. Teater: That's Nice. Rios: Or I just, I have a kind connection with the children at the church. And, and I just love it ; just even when they just say good morning, back to me, or hello or goodbye. And excited and on their way. And I'm on my way too. Teater: Sounds awesome. What has your-- what has connecting to children, or what has connecting to children meant to you? Like over the years as a librarian? Rios: What has connected mean to children? Teater: No. What has your connection with children meant to you as a librarian over the years? Rios: The in, oh, I just love to hear a child read. I love to just see their little faces when they hear a story. I'm just know, like I said, I have four of my own and, and a lot of nieces, I come from a family of ten, five brothers and five sisters. So I have nieces and nephews. And, anytime I'm Aunt Terry or Aunt T, or &lt ; laugh&gt ; , you know, we have a connection with, and in the library, of course they all know that, that I worked there. Anybody could come and, and visit their friends, cousins, nieces, nephews. And one time I had my grandson at the library. I baby him in the summer. Because my daughter and her husband had business to take care of up in Woodland, California. I mean Auburn. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; And Mr. Humphrey says, oh, my, my grandson was, I think he was seven or, or so seven years anyway, I had him in, enrolled him into the Boys and Girls Club. And so I had my friend Darlene from the library take him and they came back, both of them crying. &lt ; laugh&gt ; Teater: Oh, no. Rios: My grandson wouldn't stay. He would, he wouldn't stay. And I was working at the library. I couldn't, you know, I've taken care of customers. And so they came back crying, and then I said, okay, you come to the back. And I set him down there and I said, don't you move, you stay right there and eat your lunch or whatever. And anyway Mr. Humphrey was very kind, he never said a word to me about, yeah. Was that of order or anything. I mean, he let me do whatever was necessary for me to continue working there. Teater: I love that. That's so sweet. Rios: My grandson. I mean he loved being there at the library with me. &lt ; laugh&gt ; can I say, I mean, family always came first with me and I tell all my, the people that I know when they can't attend a meeting, that I, or something that I'm involved with, I say, and they say, my family, my doc, or doctors do whatever families first you take care of that, do not worry about anything else. And I'm saying it's family first when they need whatever they need. But at the same time I live my own life. It's a different life because my husband and I have been married forty-one years. Cause he's my third husband. So I have to do what is necessary to have a good life. And at the same time, do what what's good for other people, especially children and others. But when I can't do it, I can't do it. Like I said, in my home comes first right now with my ill husband has been ill for over 20 years. Teater: Oh no. Rios: And he retired. So, but he manages, he's a wonderful person. I mean, I could not ask for a better mate. Teater: Well, that's good to hear. I think those are all of my questions. Is there anything else that you want to add to your experience as a librarian or anything about that? Rios: Well, I just want you to make sure that, is there any way I can mail this literature to you, this newspaper articles and some of the things that I've did or I'll tell you, do you ever get to the pioneer room? Teater: I do not. So for here, I'm gonna pause the recording. --All right. Well, thank you so much for your time, Theresa. It was really great talking to you and learning all about your experience as a librarian and your impact on literacy in Escondido. It sounds so fulfilling. Thank you for your time today. Rios: You're so welcome. And Jay, what, what was your name, Jay? Teater: What? My name is MJ. Rios: MJ. I knew I had one right. Okay. MJ, thank you for calling me and giving me the opportunity to say all these things that I hope will help other people. Theresa Rios talks about how being a children's librarian has effected her and how accomodating her supervisor was for her responsibilites that interfered with work. family ; husband ; librarian ; Mr. Humphrey ; nephew Appreciation as a librarian ; Appreciative employee ; family bonds ; legacy as a librarian Oral History Theresa Rios is a retired Escondido librarian, where she created Las Embajadores Biblioteca. In this interview, Theresa discusses teaching children to read, empowering children to learn, and how her childhood impacted her passion for teaching children to read and love learning. MJ Teater: All right. It is recording now. All right. So today is Thursday, April 6th, 2022 at 1:07 PM. I am MJ Teater, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today I&#039 ; m interviewing narrator Theresa Rios for the University Library Special Collections Oral History Project. Theresa, thank you for being here with me today. Theresa Rios: You&#039 ; re very welcome. Teater: &lt ; laughs&gt ; All right. Just to get started, can you introduce yourself, like, say your name and when you were, or maybe not when you were born, but where you were born? Rios: Mm-hmm. My name is Theresa Rios. I was born in Clifton, Arizona. Teater: I&#039 ; m going to ask you a few questions about your childhood and maybe your upbringing. So, how long have you lived in San Diego if you were born in Arizona? Rios: I came to Escondido in 1970. I brought my four children and myself and we moved here and my ex-husband and I have been here for fifty years. I lived in La Jolla for five years. I love Escondido. I came back to Escondido in I believe, [19]78. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And I have been here ever since. Teater: Wow. I love that. That&#039 ; s so cool. So at what point did you become a librarian? Or what was your journey to become a librarian? Rios: My journey was-- I have this write up from this Hispanic newspaper and it tells me here when I started the library was in... back in, oh my goodness. I&#039 ; m little nervous, but not really. Anyway, I came, I started working, I came back to Escondido. I started going to Palomar College and from there I met my husband, Dan Rios. After that, I left Palomar College and I went to the employment office and they sent me to the [Escondido Public] library and I got this job at the library and I thought, my goodness, I love this job. And so I started by being a library assistant. And from there, they started giving me some privileges about -- being Hispanic, there was no Hispanic library books for either the children and even the adults. So I started-- Oh my goodness. I started, well translating for the library, whatever they needed. Anytime they needed a Hispanic to translate something, they would call me. I started teaching some of the librarians, what to, how to discuss things in Spanish or to answer in Spanish when someone came to the library and had no Spanish experience or could not. But there was no one that would write anything. I transferred papers, whatever they needed. Then I started seeing that the children, I started saying stories to the children and I noticed where a lot of the Hispanic children did not understand what we were saying [in English], what I was saying to them. And, so then I told my supervisor, I think we should start a Hispanic program -- a storytelling time. And so he said, yes, whatever, it would be wonderful. Go ahead. Whatever you think. And at that time, I had a lot of the mothers that came with their children sometimes, and they also didn&#039 ; t know English. And so I decided to start Las Embajadores de Escondido. And they, they just thought again, Liz Painter was one of them. She helped, she helped a lot, because she was very friendly with all the people and she also wanted us to try something different. So again, I said, yes, let&#039 ; s do this. Let&#039 ; s tell the stories to the children in Spanish. And so there&#039 ; s a nice picture. The newspaper came over -- The [Escondido] Times Advocate -- and I have this, I&#039 ; m sorry. Teater: It&#039 ; s okay. Do you want me to pause the recording? Rios: Yes. One moment. Okay. There&#039 ; s a very nice picture of me with this book that I would tell this story, Las Zapatitos Colorados, &quot ; The Red Shoes&quot ; and with this story, I would tell all the children to be very careful about who they went with, how not to go with just anyone and just sort of try to... tell them to be cautious, but at the same time, there was a lot to learn. We had a lot to learn. But you you&#039 ; d have to see this, this article. And do you read Spanish? Teater: I know enough to muddle through it, you know &lt ; laugh&gt ; Rios: Oh good, good. Because this whole page is in Spanish. It&#039 ; s from the Hispanico, Hispanic Times. And it was way back in 2000. June 22nd, 2000. And it says Theresa Rios, nueva de delegate al club del parlementaria. Parliamentary. Teater: Oh cool. Rios: And before that well I was at Palomar College. I was with Concerned Citizens of Escondido at A Day With Your Neighbor Luncheon on May 7th, 1982: Theresa Rios, Pichacon Lupita, and George Lopez. And there&#039 ; s my boss over here. He&#039 ; s not mentioned, Jon Ericson. Anyway, there&#039 ; s a whole page of me with a picture of the, telling the story to the children. And I would like for you to see that, cause it just explains a lot. I had no idea I had done so much. &lt ; laughter&gt ; , it&#039 ; s bringing back all these memories and I loved it. I mean the, the library to me was like home. I mean wonderful. Teater: That&#039 ; s fantastic. Rios: Anyway, again, like I say, anything you asked me to do, whether it was a police department or it was the library or my bosses, the children were very important to get them started learning. I still have many friends here in Escondido that when I see, we talk about all the things that we did. And the library I&#039 ; ve been going there and Roberta, she was my dear friend there. Just a lot of the gals that were, that are still there. Some of them the other day I went to the library and there was Francine, this one, she said &quot ; Theresa! How are you? I haven&#039 ; t seen you in,&quot ; you know, things like that. And I just love the library. I love going back. I&#039 ; m just gonna kinda stay in touch, you know? Teater: Yeah. That&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s great. That&#039 ; s so great. Rios: Back to, I mean, back to the -- what other question, I mean, I think I mentioned... Teater: That was a good starting point. So, can you tell me more about the Embajadores program? Rios: Yes, the Embajadores we, like I said, the children&#039 ; s mothers, some of them, some were elderly ladies that came to the library that were my friends that I would tell them, come join us. I mean, come join the Embajadores. We want every child in Escondido to have a library card. Teater: Oh. Rios: I want every child to know, to learn how to read at a very young age. And so they came, they came from all over and we would have -- one time we had this salsa contest, not a contest, but everybody brought different kinds of salsa and my salsa won a blue ribbon. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Teater: Ooh. Rios: It was technically a blue ribbon. It was just a wonderful time. And the people came, we would have different places that would sponsor us. One of them was El Tapatilla in Escondido would send food. Again, a lot of stuff that&#039 ; s in this article brings back a lot of memories. But the Embajadores came and they gave tours. I taught them to give tours through the library. I taught &#039 ; em to sit and talk with people that need just answers in Spanish or just to get together with other ladies that, that spoke Spanish only. And then bring them in as far as, trying to -- if they wanted an education, if they wanted to join literacy [program], things like that. I mean, literacy was just starting ; the literacy program. And, and we had, you know, different people teaching other people Spanish or English or... Teater: And about when were these programs happening? Rios: That was back in that era, which is, you know... [unclear] There&#039 ; s a lot of paperwork that have here that I I&#039 ; ve been going through, but you know, it&#039 ; s been so long. It&#039 ; s been-- Teater: Yeah. Yeah. Well that&#039 ; s okay. We can keep going. So, can you explain how, like early reading programs are impactful for a child&#039 ; s life? Like why that was so important to you? Rios: Because when I went to-- the reason that I believe this is so important is because I also, when I went to started kindergarten, I did not know a word of English. Very little, very, very little. My parents did not, we did not speak English at home. My father knew a little more than my mother, my mother didn&#039 ; t. I mean, because of her hardships, her mother died when she was, I believe, in third grade, I&#039 ; m not sure, but the schools were what, you know, and she lived in a ranch and she was left with four or five or six little ones that she helped grow up. And a baby that my, her, my grandmother, her mother died. So my mother always thought education was very important. You need it. She would get very upset. Um, so I knew that... And then I have -- Me marrying so young and having four children. I decided, nuh-uh, if I would&#039 ; ve had this education before, I would have, you know, not being so afraid of trying of being around people that could teach me that could read, could that would teach me. I mean, there was no nothing in Clifton Arizona where I was born. There was, there was some things, but not enough to inspire me at a young age. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And so I believe that if the children could get it right into them and tell me their stories, and then I would try to direct them when I would ask questions. Well, what do you do? How do you read at home? Do you do this? No... Do you like coming to the library? Oh yes. We like it. Do you like to hear stories? Oh, yes. And then I would ask some of the children little questions. I don&#039 ; t know if I should say this, but What do you do? Oh, we drink tequila. Teater: &lt ; laugh&gt ; oh, no, Rios: We would laugh over that That. I said, &quot ; Oh, no, we gotta get this--&quot ; &lt ; laugh&gt ; . I mean, I don&#039 ; t mean to it it&#039 ; s part of growing up it&#039 ; s in their environment, their family so again, I, I would see parents and I would say, well, you know, good, this is not so good. But, oh my God. And it just, I mean, you&#039 ; d have to talk to my supervisor, which was Joanne, oh, my away. Well, and Laura Mitchell was also one of my bosses. And like I said, city manager at the time, I can&#039 ; t, it&#039 ; s gone right now, but I&#039 ; ll have to get those names if you need &#039 ; em. But they would, give me card blank for whatever I wanted to do. I was so fortunate and so lucky and, a lot of like Graham Humphrey, he was the head of the library at the time. And he knew my husband very well. Dan Teater: Mm-hmm &lt ; affirmative&gt ; , Rios: And again, all I had to do was, well, Mr. Humphrey told me I want more Hispanic children here. I want, I don&#039 ; t-- at the time, I don&#039 ; t know whether he meant to say anything like this, but he said, I don&#039 ; t wanna see all this white Anglo-Saxons &lt ; affirmative&gt ; and I thought, oh my God. I mean because I believe that they&#039 ; re the white or the black or the Hispanic. We, they all need to learn everybody. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; Everybody needs to get some sense when they&#039 ; re young of what&#039 ; s going on and reading stories. I had no prejudice whatsoever, but I also understood the situation: who had the opportunities at home who didn&#039 ; t. And the ones that didn&#039 ; t of course would take priority of my attention, because I would have to explain myself more to them or listen to them a little more, so that they give me ideas of what, how I could help and how everybody in the library could help. Not just me. I didn&#039 ; t want, whenever somebody treated any of &#039 ; em with disrespect, I would just jump up and say, no, it&#039 ; s not the way we treat people. I mean, I had to fight everybody, not fight, but kind of. Teater: But yeah, I know what you mean. Rios: And I&#039 ; m still doing it. I still do it. Even in my church at resurrection and everybody is welcome. Everybody is a child of Jesus. Everybody deserves a right to be heard. Of course, sometimes people are not in the mood to be heard or this and that. But with me, they&#039 ; ll come and tell me anything. and I feel how can I say I, a lot of humility that they can do that with me. But I feel if they&#039 ; re wrong, I&#039 ; ll tell them if they&#039 ; re hurting, I&#039 ; ll listen. And if they just wanna talk, that&#039 ; s good too. So we get along and that&#039 ; s how I get along at the library, and all my life. Teater: That&#039 ; s Fantastic Rios: I guess this is how I tried to be. And what else can I tell you? Teater: &lt ; laugh&gt ; all right. Let me, let me look through my questions because you&#039 ; re, you&#039 ; re answering so many of them. So what can library librarians who only speak English do to support the Spanish speakers of, you know, Escondido and San Diego? Rios: What could they do? Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: Is that the question? Teater: Yes. Rios: They could take classes in Spanish mm-hmm &lt ; affirmative&gt ; They could have someone there to help interpret. They just like, you know, now a lot of people are coming like from other countries and we have to continue to learn. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; Although I&#039 ; m fluent Spanish and English, I love French, but you know, I&#039 ; m not that good at it. And I I&#039 ; m very close to my Filipino friends. I have a daughter-in-law that&#039 ; s married to my son and a wonderful family. And here in Escondido, I very belong to my church at resurrection eighties and the man, all we are very good friends on the counter. I am a greeter at my church on Sundays. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I, we all work together. So Like I say, whoever walks into that door always gets a good morning from me when I am greeting. And a lot of them too. And I say, we need to be very kind, but at the same time we need to. But anybody just run out, you know, they&#039 ; re having a problem. One, we have to kinda-- Teater: What other, are there any other initiatives that you worked on while you were in the library? It sounds like you had a lot of support from your supervisors. Rios: Well I was on the desk. I started on the desk. Like I said, greeting people and what do they need? Or they would tell me what I need to find out this, I need to go to this desk or I need to go here. I need to, I need to know about that. So I would direct them to wherever. That was part of our job, to direct people, to wherever they needed to go and help them. If they couldn&#039 ; t find something, if they had the librarian on the desk was busy we could try and just keep them moving. But at the same time, I had meetings with several people. I mean they have this special room. Can&#039 ; t think of it right now. I mean, it&#039 ; s just upstairs, but I would do whatever it took to for the children to have special things going on. I mean, yeah, I have to go back. But if you see this picture of me taken when I would read stories, oh, and I got, I got this job at the library, like I said, way back then, but my husband and I were planning a trip to Mexico City, Mexico, a three week trip through me to Mexico. And I told my boss, I told Joanne Greenberg. I said, I think this was in August that I got hired around that time. And in December, we were planning to go to Mexico for three weeks, four weeks. And I said, I would have to work here, but I have to ask, my husband and I are going to go to Mexico, and I want to go very badly. I&#039 ; ve never been to Mexico City. And, if you will, let me go. And, and let me come back to this job. I promise to work as hard as I can. And, you know, they let me do this after just being hired a couple of months. And I was all very grateful for that. We had a lovely time in Mexico. We had children running after our van and I mean things I saw and and my husband being a photographer, took pictures of the kids and the dresses, the colors. It was amazing. So I came back to the library and &lt ; affirmative&gt ; , I had all those stories in me from, for the children and for, you know, even adults. Teater: Mm-hmm &lt ; affirmative&gt ; sounds like, that sounds awesome. Rios: Seeing the no education, you know, a lot of we were out in the mountains where there were, and I said, and here they get a chance to come to America. And here we have all these mentees for them. So again, Mr. Humphrey had told me just whatever you need to do. And Joanne Greenberg the same. And then Laura Mitchell, she&#039 ; s whatever I wanted to do till my husband got sick. And then I said, I can&#039 ; t anymore, I have to-- &lt ; affirmative&gt ; He had Gotten this infection that he hardly couldn&#039 ; t walk for about a year. Teater: Oh no. Rios: But I took care of him. And, and he, we did wonderful, I mean, far as, and he came out of it and now he&#039 ; s on dialysis. He has been for five years. And again, it&#039 ; s a challenge just every day is a something new, but, but I live a quiet life. And if I can be, I tell people at my church, I will be here, but if I can&#039 ; t-- &lt ; affirmative&gt ; And, and that&#039 ; s the way I said, if you want me that way fine. If not, well, I have to something else, because as far as my church and my masses, I can always see them at home. I can, you know, do other things, especially now that everything is on TV. So, yeah. But at the same time, I&#039 ; m very close to my priests that we built this new church here in Escondido, Resurrection, and I have had a lot of opportunities to help there. And again, I meet a lot of my people from the library and invite &#039 ; em there and come and see and bring your children. And again, I&#039 ; m still involved. Teater: So you&#039 ; re still involved with children&#039 ; s programs then? Rios: Not as much as I would like to be, because, like I said, I can&#039 ; t commit myself too much because of my husband. Teater: Yeah. Rios: I have things that I need to do, but any chance I have, and they&#039 ; re having something really special, I try to attend. Teater: That&#039 ; s Nice. Rios: Or I just, I have a kind connection with the children at the church. And, and I just love it ; just even when they just say good morning, back to me, or hello or goodbye. And excited and on their way. And I&#039 ; m on my way too. Teater: Sounds awesome. What has your-- what has connecting to children, or what has connecting to children meant to you? Like over the years as a librarian? Rios: What has connected mean to children? Teater: No. What has your connection with children meant to you as a librarian over the years? Rios: The in, oh, I just love to hear a child read. I love to just see their little faces when they hear a story. I&#039 ; m just know, like I said, I have four of my own and, and a lot of nieces, I come from a family of ten, five brothers and five sisters. So I have nieces and nephews. And, anytime I&#039 ; m Aunt Terry or Aunt T, or &lt ; laugh&gt ; , you know, we have a connection with, and in the library, of course they all know that, that I worked there. Anybody could come and, and visit their friends, cousins, nieces, nephews. And one time I had my grandson at the library. I baby him in the summer. Because my daughter and her husband had business to take care of up in Woodland, California. I mean Auburn. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; And Mr. Humphrey says, oh, my, my grandson was, I think he was seven or, or so seven years anyway, I had him in, enrolled him into the Boys and Girls Club. And so I had my friend Darlene from the library take him and they came back, both of them crying. &lt ; laugh&gt ; Teater: Oh, no. Rios: My grandson wouldn&#039 ; t stay. He would, he wouldn&#039 ; t stay. And I was working at the library. I couldn&#039 ; t, you know, I&#039 ; ve taken care of customers. And so they came back crying, and then I said, okay, you come to the back. And I set him down there and I said, don&#039 ; t you move, you stay right there and eat your lunch or whatever. And anyway Mr. Humphrey was very kind, he never said a word to me about, yeah. Was that of order or anything. I mean, he let me do whatever was necessary for me to continue working there. Teater: I love that. That&#039 ; s so sweet. Rios: My grandson. I mean he loved being there at the library with me. &lt ; laugh&gt ; can I say, I mean, family always came first with me and I tell all my, the people that I know when they can&#039 ; t attend a meeting, that I, or something that I&#039 ; m involved with, I say, and they say, my family, my doc, or doctors do whatever families first you take care of that, do not worry about anything else. And I&#039 ; m saying it&#039 ; s family first when they need whatever they need. But at the same time I live my own life. It&#039 ; s a different life because my husband and I have been married forty-one years. Cause he&#039 ; s my third husband. So I have to do what is necessary to have a good life. And at the same time, do what what&#039 ; s good for other people, especially children and others. But when I can&#039 ; t do it, I can&#039 ; t do it. Like I said, in my home comes first right now with my ill husband has been ill for over 20 years. Teater: Oh no. Rios: And he retired. So, but he manages, he&#039 ; s a wonderful person. I mean, I could not ask for a better mate. Teater: Well, that&#039 ; s good to hear. I think those are all of my questions. Is there anything else that you want to add to your experience as a librarian or anything about that? Rios: Well, I just want you to make sure that, is there any way I can mail this literature to you, this newspaper articles and some of the things that I&#039 ; ve did or I&#039 ; ll tell you, do you ever get to the pioneer room? Teater: I do not. So for here, I&#039 ; m gonna pause the recording. --All right. Well, thank you so much for your time, Theresa. It was really great talking to you and learning all about your experience as a librarian and your impact on literacy in Escondido. It sounds so fulfilling. Thank you for your time today. Rios: You&#039 ; re so welcome. And Jay, what, what was your name, Jay? Teater: What? My name is MJ. Rios: MJ. I knew I had one right. Okay. MJ, thank you for calling me and giving me the opportunity to say all these things that I hope will help other people. Teater: Yeah, they will. Thank you so much for your time today. Rios: You&#039 ; re so welcome. Teater: Okay. All right. Have a good rest of your day. Rios: You too goodly. Teater: All right. Bye. Bye. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-17 Subject The topic of the resource Latine Americans Libraries -- Literacy Public libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-07 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Theresa Rios Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madison Teater Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Arizona Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. 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University of California, Los Angeles (Calif.) helitack Loop Fire (Calif.) flight school Fort Wolters (Texas) Fort Knox (Kentucky) The Personal Experience - Helicopter Warfare in Vietnam We Were Soldiers hunter-killer team Bell AH-1 Cobra Pleiku (Vietnam) Phan Rang (Vietnam) Bearcat (Vietnam) napalm Fort Rucker (Alabama) Fort Hood (Texas) 1968 Democratic National Convention Gray Air Force Base (Texas) Ground-Controlled Approach Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association 7-17th CAV University of Virginia Qui Nhon (Vietnam) My Lai (Vietnam) free-fire zone return fire law school attorney Fort Polk (Louisiana) Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/abdeb6b5993217c41d7d8f3dc1554cff.mp4 3c6df60dbdd1c712db4b06dd7a37c483 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral history of Tiffaney Boyd, April 15, 2021 Description An account of the resource Tiffaney Boyd is a CSUSM alumna and former president of Associated Students, Incorporated (ASI). She was a driving force in the creation of the Black Student Center (BSC), Cougar Pantry, and Sigma Gamma Rho. In this interview, Boyd Tiffaney details the process in which she and her fellow ASI cohorts proposed the idea of the BSC. She also discusses the politics that were involved in the process and the major contributors helping to bring the BSC to life. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tiffaney Boyd Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-15 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos -- Students Activism, Student Black experience in America Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calf.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Tiffaney Boyd License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource moving image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Boyd Tiffaney_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-15 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral history of Tiffaney Boyd, April 15, 2021 Description An account of the resource Oral history interview of Tiffaney Boyd on 2021-04-15 for the Black Student Center Oral History Project at California State University San Marcos. Tiffaney goes into detail about the process in which she and her fellow Associated Students, Incorporated cohorts proposed the idea of the Black Student Center. She also discusses the politics that were involved in the process and who were major contributors to helping bring the BSC to life. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tiffaney Boyd Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-15 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos, Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos, Black Student Center California State University San Marcos--Students Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Tiffaney Boyd License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BoydTiffaney_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-15 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/189c1d079e520446dd42eb120b6f7ab1.pdf 204fd44f3c4c9c8820cf04c1b51da5a2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Boyd, Tiffaney. Interview transcript, April 15, 2021. Description An account of the resource Tiffaney Boyd is a CSUSM alumna and former president of Associated Students, Incorporated (ASI). She was a driving force in the creation of the Black Student Center (BSC), Cougar Pantry, and Sigma Gamma Rho. In this interview, Boyd Tiffaney details the process in which she and her fellow ASI cohorts proposed the idea of the BSC. She also discusses the politics that were involved in the process and the major contributors helping to bring the BSC to life. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tiffaney Boyd Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-15 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos -- Students Activism, Student Black experience in America Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calf.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Tiffaney Boyd Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BoydTiffaney_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-15_transcript Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sierra Jenkins Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tiffaney Boyd OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BoydTiffaney_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-15.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Boyd, Tiffaney. Interview, April 15th, 2021. SC027-11 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM Instructionally Related Activities funding csusm Tiffaney Boyd Sierra Jenkins moving image BoydTiffaney_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-15.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/abdeb6b5993217c41d7d8f3dc1554cff.mp4 Other video 0 Interview Introduction 0 39 Childhood Boyd discusses being born and raised in California's Inland Empire including her education. Moreno Valley ; Inland Empire ; economic divestment ; education 0 167 Learning about Black history and the Black experience in childhood and adolescence Boyd reflects on a lack of knowledge of Black history until college. Learning about Blackness related to how Black people are treated in the United States. Black history ; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Hemet ; police harrassment 0 293 Developing an understanding of Blackness Boyd speaks about the racial and ethnic diversity of her high school and her shock at the small population of Black students at California State University San Marcos. Blackness for her is about pride and the knowledge of the struggles that Black people have experienced. racial diversity ; infrastructure ; Black pride ; struggle ; sociology ; criminology ; inequality ; systemic racism 0 546 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements Boyd discusses her awareness of Black activism especially with Trayvon Martin's death. She believes Black people are trying and succeeding but it is much harder for them to do so. She also talks about the Natural Hair Show on campus. protest ; natural hair movement ; Trayvon Martin 0 827 Role in the creation of the Black Student Center Boyd talks about her roles in student government that allowed her to be involved in initial discussions in the development of the Black Student Center. Racism at universities across the nation impacted her concern for resources available for Black students at California State University San Marcos. At a campus open forum with the President, students brought up several issues impacting Black students including the need for a Black Student Center. Latinx Center ; racism ; U-Hour ; open forum 0 1161 Previous efforts to establish the BSC and initial opposition Boyd discusses initial lack of support of the idea of a Black Student Center by Associated Students, Incorporated (ASI) staff. She was met with a lot of resistance by a traditionally white, male ASI elected positions. There were several Black students who were willing to be vocal about their experiences and lack of support. food pantry ; Associated Students, Incorporated ; student success ; women of color 0 1509 Student governance meeting and discussion / vote on the resolution for the creation of the Black Student Center Boyd talks about her work in getting the resolution for the creation of the Black Student Center passed. There were challenges to this proposal including a student leader who claimed that slavery did not exist. Ultimately, his comment helped to propel a positive vote forward. public comment ; resolution ; vote ; slavery ; celebration 0 1809 Leaders on the Black Student Center project, their contributions, and unsung heroes Boyd speaks to the work that came next after the resolution for the Black Student Center passed. A task force was appointed to study the issue and propose details about the Center. Other diverse student groups stood aside Black students to support the development of the Center. task force ; Jamaéla Johnso ; Louis Adamsel ; Dilcie Perez ; Fredi Avalos ; Kai Guzman ; Sharon Elise 0 2028 The Black Student Center Grand Opening Boyd discusses her graduation and what went on after that time. The Black Student Center opened in the University Student Union. It was good for her to come back to the opening of the Center and reflect on the work she started. diversity office ; graduation ; student union ; advocacy ; coalition building 0 2363 Early focus of the BSC’s initiatives, programming, events Boyd speaks to the early plans for the Black Student Center to have programs focusing on Black women and amenities needed by Black students. Black women ; women of color ; safe haven ; cultural competence 0 2496 Early events and programs Boyd says she has not been able to reap the benefits of the Black Student Center since she graduated soon after the planning stages. 0 2562 Personal impact of the Black Student Center on Boyd Boyd reflects on how her experience with the Black Student Center was formative for her career in policy and government affairs. Boyd was a legislative aide for Shirley Weber, who was a key proponent of establishing ethnic studies in California schools. Shirley Weber ; ethnic studies ; legislation ; advocacy ; policy work ; change 0 Oral history Tiffaney Boyd is a CSUSM alumna and former president of Associated Students, Incorporated (ASI). She was a driving force in the creation of the Black Student Center (BSC), Cougar Pantry, and Sigma Gamma Rho. In this interview, Boyd Tiffaney details the process in which she and her fellow ASI cohorts proposed the idea of the BSC. She also discusses the politics that were involved in the process and the major contributors helping to bring the BSC to life. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:01:00.000 Today is Thursday, April 15th, 2021, at 3:04 PM. I am Sierra Jenkins, student at CSU (California State University) San Marcos, and today I'm interviewing Tiffany Boyd for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration of the CSUSM Black Student Center and CSUSM University Library, Special Collections. Tiffany, thank you for being here with me today. TIFFANEY BOYD: Thank you. JENKINS: All right, so I'm going to just jump right in with the questions. And the first one I have for you is, start out with where you were born and where did you grow up? BOYD: Sure. I was born in Moreno Valley, California. And I grew up in San Jacinto, well Hemet/San Jacinto area, which is Inland Empire, California. I don't know if you wanted me to go more, but I grew up there. JENKINS: Yeah. How was it growing up in that area? BOYD: Sure. So, 00:01:00.000 --> 00:02:00.000 so that area is kind of economically, uninvested in or divested in, right. I grew up in some apartment complexes there, and you know, a lot of crime, a lot of poverty to say the least, surrounds, and it was within Hemet California just because it is not close to big business or anything. It's 30 minutes out to the freeway. My high school was next to a dairy farm. And so the education system, I went to a high school that was brand new. We were the first freshmen, first graduating class out there and you could tell that. I didn't have to write essays in high school at all. I had a 00:02:00.000 --> 00:03:00.000 substitute teacher for three years. It was just, substitute teacher after year after year for my English class, in which I didn't have to write and really the students were able to kind of run the show for three years because the same teacher was assigned, but she was out. And so I think just going to that high school realized how much education was not, you know, like factored or very like highly focused on at my school. JENKINS: Oh, wow. That’s, That’s crazy. But that kind of goes into my next question of, what were you taught in childhood and adolescence about Black history and the Black experience, whether it be through education or life, family? BOYD: Sure. You know, I think within my family, it was always emphasized to go to school, to go to college eventually. But as far as Black history specifically, 00:03:00.000 --> 00:04:00.000 it wasn't much, taught in my school. It wasn't until much later into college and electives that I was really able to learn about Black history above and beyond MLK day or some type of form of Black History Month, but not really getting into the, I guess, the depths of our history and all of the fighters that were, you know, had to fight against oppression and, applied against the systems that continue to not invest in Black economics and Black justice. And so I think growing up with my parents, and in Hemet that is, was originally a retirement city for older folks, older white folks, and was a city that Black people weren't welcomed in and my dad was harassed by the police in Hemet, right, got like 21 tickets in one year, from just like 00:04:00.000 --> 00:05:00.000 walking, driving, biking, no matter what, just like: what are you doing here, never seen you before in this area? And so I think, watching my dad and his interaction with the criminal justice system younger kind of taught me, I think, a lot about Black history in some ways, or like the historic ways that in which Black people are treated in this country. And so, we're seeing a lot of that today as far as folks being harassed doing normal things as Black people, but still not being seen as a whole person or someone worth the dignity and right to live. JENKINS: How did you come to your own understanding of Blackness? BOYD: I don't know. I don't even know what that means. I mean, I don't even know. I think for me coming to college, I went to a high school that had, 00:05:00.000 --> 00:06:00.000 you know, Black and Brown and it was a very diverse high school. Not as far as diverse teachers, but the students were diverse. Coming to San Marcos where we were less than 3% of the population at the campus was something that was new for me. And it did throw me a little bit off that there wasn't, you could be the only Black person in campus or in your class often. I don't think I had one Black professor during my time at San Marcos and so that was also kind of just different, and made hyper aware of my, that I was Black, that I'm different. And I think that realizing that we didn't have a like organization like sororities fraternities at the time, we didn't have like Black focused clubs. There was a BSU (Black Student Union), 00:06:00.000 --> 00:07:00.000 but at that time it wasn't active. And so there was a very desired need just to be with people of likeness that kind of understood the Black experience, whatever that kind of means. But for me, Blackness just means pride or an understanding that there are struggles that we go through or that we've been through that other ethnicities and races haven't necessarily had that struggle. JENKINS: Okay. And, you mentioned that you came, like you learned more about your, about Black history and the Black experience in college was that through classes and I guess since you didn't use to have like the BSU and Black sororities, did it come through the Black Student Center later? BOYD: So I didn't come through the Black Student Center later because we didn't, I didn't get to benefit from the Black Student Center at all. I think through sociology classes 00:07:00.000 --> 00:08:00.000 and through criminology courses and communications courses. One course which is kind of almost the opposite, but yet it still points to it is The Communication of Whiteness, is a class taught by Jim Mamoon that kind of just put into perspective. I think a lot of times we do focus on the experience of Black people and how we've gotten, come to be, but it's like, how do we continue to perpetuate whiteness and how that affects the power structures that we face today? And so I think being able to talk about inequality and race in my sociology classes really put into perspective of how everything isn't necessarily so, I guess happenstance, but that systems are perpetuated and created and policies are perpetuated and created that allow the experience that I have in which I'm going to a school 00:08:00.000 --> 00:09:00.000 that is underfunded or that, I wasn't, you know, had access to AP courses or anything that it's perpetuated, that structural racism kind of works in that way. And so I think that that's how I was able to form more of a strong identity that, you know, we don't have a pipeline program at our, on our campus. That we’re not recognized as Black students, that our struggles are different than a traditional student or how higher education was originally formed. And so I think that, in that I wanted to create a space where, and dialogue and room for us to kind of talk about the experience of being at San Marcos and not necessarily being seen. JENKINS: That's awesome. That kind of goes back what you're talking about, with like what's going on today and like that kind of thing. So my next question is how has Black social justice and activism such as the Civil Rights 00:09:00.000 --> 00:10:00.000 movement, feminism, the natural hair movement and Black Lives Matter affected you? BOYD: Yeah, I would say it was affecting me a lot. So the first, the first iteration of some way, like I was already kind of aware, but I think it was like a appointment, like exclamation mark when Trayvon Martin died or was a murdered, assassin, killed. And I was in a sociology class and we were talking about Hurricane Katrina and just how that, how there wasn't help from the federal government to this area. And then of course, we're like studying this. And then at the same time, Trayvon Martin is killed through, with Skittles in his hand. And so that year, I want to say it was either, I want to say 2013 or 2014, we went and I had my parents come to a protest march in LA. 00:10:00.000 --> 00:11:00.000 And I think that in that you kind of just continue to be aware. And then you hear about Freddy (Gray) and you hear about Eric Garner and all of these folks. And so I think that that has really been something that has stayed with me. We did during our time, and you'll hear from other students about the natural hair show that we had at our campus. And, and you realize that folks are either afraid or ashamed of their hair texture as it is. And so I think that awareness of like what Black Lives Matter and what civil rights did and how they've pushed forward an agenda to say: hey, we are just as human, we’re as dignified as anybody else, and we deserve those same rights and the same ability to flourish and have jobs. And you just see the historical ways in which, again and again, Black people are trying and are succeeding. 00:11:00.000 --> 00:12:00.000 But they are, it's much harder for us to do so. JENKINS: Can you tell me about more about the natural hair show that you mentioned? I've actually never heard of, haven't heard of that yet. BOYD: Yeah. So, on our campus as, so when I was a freshman on the campus we didn't have, our BSU (Black Student Union) was not strong. We didn't have a core group of folks that were involved. We didn't have faculty that were invested either. And so a few students started that mantel my year and by the third year, BSU, like my third year of college, we had put on a natural hair show in which, when we first began as well we didn't have a (university) student union, which now we do have a student union in which people are able to do gather and be a center hub of the campus. And so that first year that it opened, 00:12:00.000 --> 00:13:00.000 we had this big hair show, Black natural hair show in which students volunteered to model their hair as it is, afros and curls and braids, and was just a celebration, had folks who were hairstylists and had their own businesses come and promote their businesses. And then had students able to walk the catwalk in a way, and then have some uplifting powering music and just a way to come together and celebrate to say, this is our hair texture and this is something to be celebrated that everybody is different, and beautiful in and of their own right. JENKINS: That sounds amazing. Did you guys only have it that year? Is it something that's reoccurred since then? BOYD: Yeah, so it's reoccurred since then, each year. I'm not quite sure, I'm about a few years removed. But I do know that 00:13:00.000 --> 00:14:00.000 Akilah Green, who was the, she had recently that time had, did the big chop. And she was impetus, or she was the go starter for this event. And I know that there's been a few times where she's been called back to participate in the natural hair show that she began. So I want to say that it's at least like the sixth year, if it's still continuing either virtually or not, I'm pretty sure that there have been students that kind of continued it on. But yeah, it's been like an annual thing and it's really a beautiful event. JENKINS: That's so cool. I'm going to definitely check that out. What is your relationship to the BSC (Black Student Center)? Why did you get involved? BOYD: Sure. So, my, in my senior year, my fifth year, I was present... Well, I guess it to go back, in 2014, 00:14:00.000 --> 00:15:00.000 I want to say, I was vice president in the... Actually, sorry, I'll go back even more. I was a representative. I was like a rep, a rep for the College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral, and Social Sciences (in Associated Students Incorporated, student government). And that year they were talking about the creation of a Latino Latina center (Latin /x Center) at our campus, and we were able to vote, and it was a big thing. We've had, only had the Cross-Cultural Center and we had the Women's Center (now Gender Equity Center) at the campus, and the Latinos, or Latinx population wanted a center. And so it was a big, big conversation. And in the end it had, you know, triumphed and we were, it had passed for the creation of Latino Latina center. You fast forward two years later, and I was a president at the time (of Associated Students Incorporated and there was a huge 00:15:00.000 --> 00:16:00.000 demonstration. There had been, there's always, or I won't say that there's always, but campuses continue to negotiate diversity and inclusion at their campuses is an ongoing theme across campuses. Not only in California, but across the nation. And at that time, Missouri, which they call a Mizzou University (University of Missouri at Columbia) where it was going through something where racism had occurred on campus toward Black students, but athletes had spoke out about the injustice that was faced on that campus and the president was unresponsive. And so the students had went on protest at Missouri, the student athletes, which is a huge, big deal because at that campus, they had football and that's a big revenue, that the campus was losing by them not performing or not, you know, doing the game. 00:16:00.000 --> 00:17:00.000 And so you see a lot of other things were happening at that time. And I don't quite remember all of the activities, but something had just happened I want to say at San Jose State University, something had happened at a different university. And the way in which the university treats Black students, welcomes Black students, and invests in Black students was like up in question, across all campuses. And so, as you know, as the student body president at the time, I also was concerned about Black students on our campus and what resources, or lack of thereof, resources for black students was available. At our campus, we do have what's called U Hour, which, from 12 to one (p.m.) on Tuesdays and Thursdays, students for the most part don't have classes. There's not classes resuming at that time. And so it allows for campus life to, for events or for clubs to meet you at that U Hour, University Hour. 00:17:00.000 --> 00:18:00.000 And so Black, so for BSU (Black Student Union) on Thursdays, of every other Thursday, I want to say, BSU was able to like gather and meet. And if you're able, if you're on campus on a Thursday and on a, and don't have classes and you're able to participate in BSU. But if you didn't, if you either were a commuter student, which a lot of students are, and maybe your classes are Monday and Wednesdays, or if you had a job that you had to go to, or something you're unable to really participate in the BSU because it's like only this time on the hour. So, and for the most part, you don't even see these Black students, you're not (sneezes) excuse me, running into them on campus because we're so spread out. And so when one day, like we were, the university, the campus university was having a, what is it called? An open forum, a diversity open forum 00:18:00.000 --> 00:19:00.000 about just the campus itself. It wasn't really even a diversity forum. It was just an open forum of the president (Karen Haynes) talking about the state of the campus and some initiatives that were going forward and students had rose up that day and said, hey, what about Black students? What are you doing about Black students on our campus? We're feeling isolated. We aren't having retention rates. We don't have professors and are feeling unsupported. And so when the campus president heard about it, she said, please address a letter to me, I, this is the first time that I'm hearing about this issue. And so that's kind of where I got involved, as the student government lens is that I also had put forth a resolution in support of a Black Student Center, or a resource center to be a hub where Black students can come, no matter the time or the date of, of the hour. Right. But that there would be somebody dedicated 00:19:00.000 --> 00:20:00.000 to the inclusion of Black students where you can get resources of paper or have dialogues that are hyper specific and culturally competent around this area or this issue. JENKINS: What was the initial response when you put that proposal in? BOYD: Sure. It was, it was complicated, I guess (laughs) you could say. So, student government at San Marcos is kind of its own institution, its own little bubble. Right. And I had been involved since a representative so by the time my, I was elected for president, it was my third year being involved in student government and the faculty who are, or not faculty, but the staff who are ever-present for us, and students of course come in 00:20:00.000 --> 00:21:00.000 and wash out. They weren't very supportive of me or my executive board. So we were the first, all-women of color executive board. There's three executives, there's the president, the vice president of student affairs and the vice president of operations, that are all elected and get to sit on the executive committee. And so prior to even this effort, which didn't start until October of the year, and you are elected in, I want to say like April or March of that year, so 2015 March, April is when I'm elected into the presidency. You fast forward to August. And we're trying to talk about what initiatives we have for the year. And I was already thinking, although I didn’t express it, that I 00:21:00.000 --> 00:22:00.000 wanted to look into the issue of a Black Student Center. And besides that was like a food pantry. And I wanted to look into social media. It's weird that social media is, you know, everywhere. It's like normal, but at the time we didn't have social media presence as, as the student government. And so I wanted to establish us, get a Snapchat, get us an Instagram at the time. And so, we're talking about social media, we're talking about events, we're talking about how can student government be more accessible and visible to the students? Because a lot of times we are a great resource and yet students either aren't taking advantage of the resource or don't really know or understand. And so figuring out ways to do that and be connected to the university more. And we were told that we're difficult women, that we should, that, you know, he wished as the executive director that he had, the SAE board back. And SAE stands for 00:22:00.000 --> 00:23:00.000 Sigma Alpha Epsilon. And they are a like on our campus at least historically white fraternity of males, and that is the brand of student government. At the time was that mostly it's like fraternity guys who get their own friends to vote for them. And that they weren't inclusive of the campus, they weren't representative of the campus. And you know, ASI kind of just did their own thing over there. So I was trying to bridge that gap and was met with a lot of resistance, from the beginning. And so when the Black Student Center came around and was another thing that was seen as unwelcome, it's all I can say. It's like not understood why we need an additional center when we have the Cross-Cultural Center. Two years ago we just had the Latino center. This is kind of just, you know, doing too much. There's not that many of you, why do you need a whole center, right? 00:23:00.000 --> 00:24:00.000 The argument for the Latino Latin /x Center was that: we're half the population of this campus, or like a significant amount. We’re a Hispanic Serving Institution, at least deemed that through federal government, through the federal side and so it's like we should be serving our students. And so on the opposite side, it's like, we're a small population, but it's necessary in order for the retention and rate of student success for this to be here. And so I would just say that that's kind of how it was. The Black Student Union at the time had some great Black students who were vocal, who were willing to put their story on the line about the isolation that they feel, about the microaggressions that are experienced, and the lack of support, but they weren't organized in a way to understand how, 00:24:00.000 --> 00:25:00.000 how to speak with the president, how to talk to the vice president, the vice, the Dean of Students, Student Affairs. And so I think that I was able to bridge that understanding of working with the administration to forward our goals, because there are, there were faculty who were supportive of this, that this initiative and idea, and were helping to craft the resolution language and trying to whip up the votes for other students to also buy-in. As the, as a woman of color and executive board, executive board of color, it was great to have that camaraderie within our executive board, but of course the board is much larger than just us (officers) and it gets much more diverse than folks of color. So we knew that it was an uphill battle because there were, I don't remember at the time how many representatives, but of course you got to get, you know, half plus 00:25:00.000 --> 00:26:00.000 one. JENKINS: So it sounds like there was a lot of pushback. So how was it when they approved the Black Student Center? What was that like? BOYD: Sure. So it was, it was a huge meeting. So the first, so basically the students, you know, spoke out. The president (Karen Haynes) said that she would look into the issue. But I believe that there was a caveat about going through student government or what does the student voice have to be, say, since we represent. So then I was like: my baton to start, my work. So I started my work as well. Fast forward to February of 2016. The executive director (of Associated Students Incorporated) that I had mentioned before is out on leave. He's no longer working for the student government. We have a new person who just started in February, who is a retired annuitant from San Diego State University, and we're at this huge meeting. 00:26:00.000 --> 00:27:00.000 If you know anything about student government, we don't have a lot of people at our meetings. People are not interested. (laughs) And our meetings, we have them on Fridays, afternoon and our campus is a commuter campus and nobody's on campus on Friday. On that day we moved our meeting from our small room that we had into a much larger room in the USU in the (University) Student Union to accommodate for the amount of folks. Public comment. Was a lot of public comment was happening. There was concerns about some of the language that was in the resolution, the resolution language, and there was process questions about the Student Advocacy Committee and their recommendation to the board. It was like, just a lot of, just a lot. And so you have students that are speaking out to say, we want this, this item to pass and there was other, you know, environmental stuff. And I think even the food pantry (Cougar Pantry) was like that day as well. So just like a lot of 00:27:00.000 --> 00:28:00.000 agenda items. And so during that time, we had a student who represented the College of Business and Administration, and he was kind of adamantly against this Black Student Center. And so during the open discussion around the bill in which people can make amendments to the language of the resolution if they want or anything, he was basically saying that slavery didn't exist. So, slavery was a part of the resolution for good or for bad. It started at, and any resolution kind of goes big and it goes narrow down to where, whereas this is, for these reasons this. And so he was like, slavery doesn’t exist, that the industrial revolution was the reason why we are a great country 00:28:00.000 --> 00:29:00.000 that we are. And so, you know, it of course is a touchy subject to say the least. And so students were upset and outraged that he made the comment and all of this stuff. But in the end, I think that that comment actually helped propel more than back up for students who were still on the fence, of student government representatives that were on the fence. We didn't know if we had enough votes for the resolution at the time, but I wanted to at least put the issue up. There had been a lot of turmoil within the ASI (Associated Students Incorporated) and just with the students. And so I just wanted to say, okay, it's on the floor, let's have a full discussion about what you'd like to see what you want, than for us to continue to have these like sidebar conversations. And so we went up for a vote and in the end, it passed. I think 00:29:00.000 --> 00:30:00.000 that student, that represented (College of) Business was the only student who voted against the bill, or the resolution. And so, I mean, it was celebratory, right? It's exciting because, we didn't know what was going to happen and to, to get so far, that initiative had started basically in October when they spoke out to the president. And so to have that, to have that in February, which is a kind of quick deadline, but like not that quick, was great. And it was because students, and myself, and other people were prepared to know how to do our job, with or without a staff helping us to craft language or go through the order. JENKINS: That's amazing. It sounds like you put a lot of work into doing this. So we talked about that. So you were definitely a leader on this project. Was there anybody 00:30:00.000 --> 00:31:00.000 else who you saw as like a great contributor to the Black Student Center and including any unsung heroes that we may not know about? BOYD: Sure. So, you know, after, after the resolution was passed that, you know, it doesn't stop there, right. There has to be a flushing out of what, what is the Center going to do? We have established that there's a problem, we've established that we're willing as student voice to put our, our stamp of approval to say that, deem this statewide, or a campus-wide problem. And then so there was a lot, there was then, the president then appointed a task force to study the issue and to come up with a proposal of what the student, what the Black resource name would be, where it would be hosted, what services would it 00:31:00.000 --> 00:32:00.000 have, and all of that good stuff. And so, as ASI (Associated Students Incorporated), I was able to be the representative there. And then as part of the BSU (Black Student Union), Jamaéla Johnson, who was actually the Vice President of Student Affairs (in ASI) at the time, but was also a really big BSU - I don't know what her office title was in the BSU. But she was a part of BSU. One thing that for me, I wasn't able to be like as an active member. And I think because of the work that I had, aside from campus that Thursday hour was constantly taken away from me or used in some way. But I always tried to stay in contact with whoever the president was and try to do whatever, you know, cross collaborations. I was president of like some other orgs and so tried to like just align efforts, but I wasn't like super involved. So 00:32:00.000 --> 00:33:00.000 as BSU representative, Jamaéla Johnson was there and we were able to really speak at the table with the administrators of Student Affairs and, I forget everybody who was at the table, but everybody who the president had assigned to this task force to really discuss it. Louis Adamsel, which was, he was really integral and helpful during this process. Brandy Williams was one of the students. Danii Thornton and, I forget her sister's name (Darneisha Thornton). They both started with a D but the Thorton twins were really helpful in getting the initiative and the voice out, and Dilcie Perez who at the time was the Dean of Students was really helpful, too. And there was a lot of faculty who were, Sharon Elise 00:33:00.000 --> 00:34:00.000 was great. Freddy Avalos, another professor that was great during it. Karen Guzman (now Kai Guzman). The Latino students who, MEChA is the organization that had passed the Latino center resolution. And they came in support and stood alongside Black students as, as we were advancing the idea of a Black Student Center, they were there as well to help, advocate and support and say that this is just as important. JENKINS: I love that it was such a community effort. That's really amazing for the Center. What, were you at the BSC’s grand opening? BOYD: Yes, I Was there. So – JENKINS: Tell me about it. BOYD: So what? JENKINS: Tell me about it. BOYD: Oh yeah, sure. So 00:34:00.000 --> 00:35:00.000 during that issue, so I think that, you know, Mizzou and everything that their president had been fired from the campus, he had actually left their campus, and this was the same time, allowed the president (Karen Haynes) to be like more listening to students. You don't want to be the president who's not listening to students when you're seeing the consequences of that in firing on other campuses, right? And then in February during the same time that, you know, we're pushing in advancing and it's Black History Month, our diversity officer was also let go. Nobody knew why our diversity officer was let go in February but they were also let go. And so that helped kind of propel as well, this angst around diversity. Other students were kind of upset that our diversity officer’s gone one day and he was a really good champion for these issues, right. We're talking about, 00:35:00.000 --> 00:36:00.000 you know institutionalizing some of it. And of course he's only one man. So yes, having a center with somebody else for programming or anything as well, it was important. And so I also just wanted to give that context, just to say that was also like part of the storm that helped create the Center, the birth of the Center. And so the diversity office was also like an unsung hero within that, that also kept students sane and helpful. But so that was that year and we graduated many other students who were a part of it ; Jamaéla Johnson, myself had both graduated and moved on in our lives. But excitingly enough, there was space in the (University Student) Union that they were able to retrofit. When we left, we talked about what resources we thought would be important for the (Black) Student Center, and where we identified some places. But it wasn't anything set in stone in that the president (Karen Haynes) got to identify and 00:36:00.000 --> 00:37:00.000 have the last word on that. And so, fast forward a year and the food pantry (Cougar Pantry) that I had already, that had passed uncontroversially. Which was good, but was controversial before, and this had passed. And so when we got invited back to campus to say that it's actually opening, that there's been identified place in the (University Student) Union, it was, it was much exciting. I was in, I want to say that I had already relocated to Sacramento by this time, which is Northern California. And so I flew back down, and they were just nice enough to give, I guess, space for myself, Akilah Green, who was the diversity and inclusion, I want to say, student representative on the student government. And she had been doing a lot of BSU (Black Student Union) work as well. And Jamaéla Johnson, 00:37:00.000 --> 00:38:00.000 all three of us were able to come back to campus to see the grand opening, to speak a little bit about our experience and our joy that, you know, to see it to come to life. And it was great because, again, the (University Student) Union was fairly new as we were exiting campus and so to see just how much campus life had grown and how much the Union had became a hub for students to converse. And to know that the Black Student Center was a part of that life, that it wasn't in a corner back by Markstein (Hall), which is where our meetings used to be, but that it was at the corner hub with all of the other centers there, was great to see that there was an identified place, that there was Black faces, like in the same room, and that there was artwork that was reflective and that there was a whole programming and director 00:38:00.000 --> 00:39:00.000 at the time. And to see it kind of come 360 was great because you always want to hopefully leave something better than what you found it, leave some type of legacy. And I really did feel that if we weren't in the position, if it was some other folks in student government, then I think that they might not have passed the resolution, or it would have been something that was dragged on and maybe unfinished. And I think that the effectiveness of coalition building, of advocacy, of people having different levels of involvement, from either protesting down or from having allies at the Dean of Students, really made it really effective, as well as a national climate that's saying: hey, like, we have to keep paying attention to this, that we can't just let it be some one-off thing, but that, this is something that has been historical since when students weren't even Black students, weren't allowed to be on campuses. Since we built our own Black campuses, right? To see this happen and 00:39:00.000 --> 00:40:00.000 acknowledged was a really great moment for I think everybody— JENKINS: You've mentioned a lot about like, the work you guys put in to see the Center come to life. Can you tell me more about the early focus of BSCs initiatives, programming events and like the focus of the Center itself? BOYD: Sure. So for us, we thought it was important that there was programming specifically for like uplifting and focusing on Black students and dialogue, Black women. We had like a Gender Equity Center, but a lot of times women of color can fall through the cracks of women’s initiatives. And so it was really important that there was programming, that there was printing so that students are able to print for free at the campus center, that there would be like a refrigerator 00:40:00.000 --> 00:41:00.000 for students to have their have meals refrigerated there, and be a place where people can frequently just come and like, hang out so that if you're in between classes that you can learn or meet other students of Black descent, hopefully, and of course anybody is welcome to come in and learn something. But I think that that was most important that the significance of having both resources there, but also just having a communal space in which folks know that it is a safe place to be where hopefully the microaggressions or the frustrations of campus that you might go through could be a place where, like a safe haven for you to kind of come touch base and then be able to flourish within the campus later. And I think that that was like a part of the focus ; have some concrete resources, have one person that's dedicated to programming there, and 00:41:00.000 --> 00:42:00.000 having culturally competent program and then have just like the physical space of saying like, this is a Black Student Center for you built by you, hopefully hiring students, as well, to shape it, form it, was what we had expected and hoped. JENKINS: In your opinion, have they succeeded and, what has been your favorite event that they've had or program? BOYD: Yeah. You know, it's unfortunate cause I don't really get to reap the benefits or the fruits of the labor. And I know from a distance about what's happening maybe on campus or what's happening with the Black Student Center. But I haven't been super involved since I kind of just like planted the seed. 00:42:00.000 --> 00:43:00.000 And so I don't know what events that they have done that were really successful or really impactful in the years that I left. JENKINS: I'm sorry to hear that. (laughs) This question, I guess you would be able to answer: what has been the impact of the BSU (BSC, Black Student Center) or, you know, petitioning for the BSU on your, on you personally? BOYD: Can you repeat the question? JENKINS: What has been the impact of the BSU (BSC) since you haven't been able to like experience it? What has been the impact of being like a leader, a leading advocate for the BSU (BSC) on you personally? BOYD: Yeah, I mean, I think it's formative of my whole trajectory of what I do now, to be honest. I currently, well, I guess what I was just doing, but it kind of falls into, I just got a new job. But I'm doing policy and government affairs 00:43:00.000 --> 00:44:00.000 right now, but I've been doing, I was a legislative aide for four years. And it was during San Marcos at a luncheon, a diversity and inclusion luncheon that Assembly Member Shirley Weber, who represents the 79th district in San Diego, came to our campus to speak around diversity, around change, around all things diversity. And so she spoke there and she talked about her legislation that she was working on. And I said: I want to work for her one day, right? And it's because she advances. She's a Africana Studies Professor, we didn't have Ethnic Studies on our campus at the time. We only had, they were starting a minor, an Ethnic Studies minor. And it was a dabble of if you took, you know, this sociology class or if you took this communications class and you could like kind of work it into being an Ethnic Studies minor. 00:44:00.000 --> 00:45:00.000 And just working towards issues that matter on our campus and saying, you know what? We don't have this, we should have this, we need this. It's something that could have improved the way that I had experienced the campus. It was great because I now apply that to the policies in which I advanced, and the legislature. And I ended up working for Assembly Member Weber, during my time. And so we were able to via my inexperience, it's almost like what I don't have or what I don't see is what I want to advocate for the most ; and so this past year in 2020, we established a graduation requirement, and a requirement for all CSU (California State University) campuses to have ethnic studies on their campus and to have a graduation requirement for all CSU students to at least take one 00:45:00.000 --> 00:46:00.000 ethnic studies course before they graduate. Within the four historically, recognized ethnic studies demographics, which is Native American, Chicano, Latino, Asian, API, and then an Africana or African studies. And so that's a, it's a huge, it was three years. It wasn't just like one and done, but it was impactful for my story, right. So because I advocated for the Black Student Center and all of these things and was a part of seeing how coalition building advocacy, how having folks in power works is it's, I apply that every day to like legislation as I'm trying to either advocate for ethnic studies or advocate for exonerated folks to have access to housing or, pregnant and, pregnant and parenting pupils in K through 12 and their access to education and not being pushed out. I'm asking folks: hey, like, please, it's unfortunate, but 00:46:00.000 --> 00:47:00.000 please tell your story to help paint a picture for folks so that they can understand what it is on the ground level. And then we're talking with legislators who have the ability and finance and budget to also say like, you know what we need to invest in this, this costs this much, but this is why this is so important. And so I think that has been super impactful to how I look at policy change, how I look at change in general, and the experiences that I'm having. It's like, it's not so again, so happenstance, right? It's like people aren't in the room where people, we haven't had the right people or the right time and the national climate to take action. We, in Sacramento, a student – person – had, Stefan Clark was shot, right. In Sacramento that same year that I'm out here my first year. And he, his cell phone is mistaken as a gun. 00:47:00.000 --> 00:48:00.000 That year is when we like, ran a use of force bill, right. To say that officers should shoot when it's necessary, not when they're just scared. And it's the same kind of process of getting folks on the ground, getting folks here and there, and putting in positions and then raising it, on a national level, to have that dialogue and the outrage and stuff. And then we can start ushering in more change. And it's unfortunate that that's kind of, it takes so much from so many different angles, but that's almost how it always is in order to best change. And it's just like, are you willing to continue to raise the issue again and again? JENKINS: Your work is very inspiring. It's so amazing that you also got to work with somebody you like, nope, I'm going to work with her. Like, that's really amazing. BOYD: Absolutely. JENKINS: 00:48:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000 So that's actually all I have for you because the rest of the questions are mainly like if you were at the BSC, experiencing it, that kind of thing. But my last question is, are there any questions that I should have asked that I have not? BOYD d: You know, I don't think so. I can't think of any question that you didn't or that I didn't touch upon it. I would just, yeah, I don't think so. JENKINS: Okay. So, thank you so much for participating and the Black Student Center Oral History Project. I, we all appreciate it so much and we, thanks. Thanks for being here. I'm gonna’ stop recording now. BOYD: Okay. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BoydTiffaney_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-15.xml BoydTiffaney_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-15.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Boyd, Tiffaney. Interview April 15th, 2021. Description An account of the resource Tiffaney Boyd is a CSUSM alumna and former president of Associated Students, Incorporated (ASI). She was a driving force in the creation of the Black Student Center (BSC), Cougar Pantry, and Sigma Gamma Rho. In this interview, Boyd Tiffaney details the process in which she and her fellow ASI cohorts proposed the idea of the BSC. She also discusses the politics that were involved in the process and the major contributors helping to bring the BSC to life. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-11 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-15 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tiffaney Boyd Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sierra Jenkins Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos -- Students Activism, Student Black experience in America Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Tiffaney Boyd Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history Women's experience