17 10 196 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steve Wagner OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Stone Brewing Company;Brewing history;Brewers;San Diego breweries;IPA OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Wagner, Steve. Interview October 24, 2018. SC027-064 01:00:20 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Stone Brewing Company ; Brewing history ; Brewers ; San Diego breweries ; IPA Steve Wagner Judith Downie audio 1.0:|18(14)|35(14)|50(7)|62(19)|73(3)|91(19)|104(5)|128(4)|146(11)|162(19)|175(12)|196(3)|208(16)|227(11)|244(8)|265(16)|290(2)|310(11)|322(7)|343(9)|360(13)|375(11)|390(12)|413(13)|427(3)|444(5)|463(15)|477(15)|493(19)|505(13)|523(17)|540(9)|568(4)|591(3)|613(16)|629(11)|637(10)|654(5)|669(14)|684(6)|699(10)|721(10)|739(6)|754(15)|773(2)|787(16)|803(15)|820(9)|842(6)|856(5)|875(17)|896(12)|918(19)|933(7)|945(10)|966(14)|986(15)|998(10)|1016(10)|1030(6)|1036(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4c12a198b29a2ac447131d9f6636ed05.mp3 Other audio Oral history Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Judith Downie: Today is October 24th, 2018. Judith Downie interviewer for the CSUSM Brewchive® with Steve Wagner, co-founder and co-owner of Stone Brewing. Steve Wagner: (Aside to office staff) Okay. Don't have to worry about that. Alright, great. Downie: So if you will first state your name and position. Wagner: Okay. This is Steve Wagner, I am the cofounder and president of Stone Brewing Company. Downie: Okay. And so if we could get into a little bit of your own background, what the path that led you to Stone would be very informative. Wagner: Yes, absolutely. My story starts in Evanston, Illinois suburb of Chicago where I was born. 1958 and my parents had attended Northwestern University. So, I grew up in the Chicago area until I was about 10 years old and my family moved to Los Angeles, California. My father took a job with Mattel Toy Company , which was very exciting for me and my brothers. In fact, I think that's where my first entrepreneurial venture was. I would get some of the new Hot Wheels™ cars before they were released and I would sell them to my school mates, at highly inflated prices because they were collecting them and they could get them before they came out. Downie: Yeah, hot demand for something nobody else had. Boy, you were doing it… Wagner: It was better, I made more money than the lemonade stand. I'll put it that way. Downie: Now of course, did you ever get into trouble for doing that either from Mattel or from the school because you were conducting business on school property? Wagner: Nope. Never got caught. So, okay, let's see. So, interests before brewing. While I was a lifelong musician, I started studying piano growing up in Chicago. When I think when I was six years old, I started taking piano lessons and played all the way through high school, had some incredible teachers and actually in high school I started playing some guitar and bass and started playing in some bands, some high school bands. And then, college I went to UC Santa Cruz. So, I was an English lit major and still played some music, with some friends and things. And then after college I moved back to Los Angeles and I was working in some restaurants and, you know, basically trying to figure out what to do and ended up meeting some other musicians at a party and we decided to form a band. And that was the beginning of the Balancing Act, which was the, I guess you'd say, the most successful band I was in. We ended up self-producing our first record and putting it out on our own label. So again, some, good entrepreneurial experience. Downie: So was this an LP? Wagner: It was an EP actually , an extended play. It was six songs I believe were on it. Just vinyl, this was right before CDs kind of became the new format. And, yeah, it was fun and we got some nice critical recognition and acclaim and, you know, played a lot in, in Southern California. And then, we actually got signed to I.R.S. records, which was a pretty cool record label at that time. And we ended up recording and releasing two albums for that label. Got to tour all over the US multiple times and every college town now I think in the US. (laughs) Those were our people. Downie: And so this was still as The Balancing Act? Wagner: Yes. Yep. And so, yeah, it was, it was a really great experience and it was four of us and we all wrote songs and sang. It was very much a collective and we had a lot of fun. Yeah, let's see. So, then I started, uh, I think that band, eventually we went our separate ways and I played in some other groups, a band in LA called the Bedshredders and another band called Walker Stories. I did some studio work and played, you know, played on recordings for other people and things like that. But I was kind of at that point thinking, okay, I was, I got married. I was not that keen to go back out on tour and on the road and do things like that. So, I was trying to think of what the next step in my career would be. And one of the guys in, actually I played with in both the Bedshredders and Walker Stories invited me over to do some homebrewing at his house. He was a homebrewer and I went over and did that and was immediately captivated by the process of brewing your own beer. I was already a beer fan and I mean, my touring days, you know, you'd always get, the band would get, a case of beer and I’d like try to get them to give us something, you know, a little out of the ordinary or something local. But there wasn't much choice in those days, but still enjoyed it. Downie: This would have been about what year? Wagner: This was the mid to late eighties, early nineties. Downie: So craft brewing is just starting to get a hold in places? Wagner: Yeah, you know, Sierra Nevada was around, but I think they were still really only California probably. Yeah, there were a few other things, but not much. So, let's see. So, yeah, I started homebrewing on my own ‘cause I wanted to do it more often and you know, really read up and studied as much as I could about it and brewed a lot and joined some Homebrew clubs in Los Angeles and really tried to learn as much as I could about it and do it in my spare time . And, as part of that journey, I wanted to, they were offering classes at (University of California) Davis in Northern California, extension classes on advanced home brewing and sensory evaluation of beer. And so I decided to make the trip up there one weekend to, you know, try to learn some more and check out the school up there. And so I went, I think on a Friday there was an advanced home brewing class that I went to and then on Saturday it was the sensory evaluation of beer class. And I look across the room and I see this long-haired guy and I go, ‘Wait a minute, that's my rock and roll landlord, Greg Koch.’ And it was funny, you know, I didn't, it was out of context and I think it took me a little while to figure out who it was and I'm like, ‘Oh yeah’, ‘cause we didn't know each other that well. We were acquaintances. Because he tells the story, he didn't know me that well ‘cause my band actually paid that rent on time. So, we rented music rehearsal space from his company. Downie: Now this was the LA location? Wagner: Yeah, downtown Los Angeles. Downie: There was a San Francisco location for a while. Wagner: Yeah. This was the downtown Los Angeles location. And so, you know, when we had the first break I went up and said hi and we started talking a little bit and realized we had a mutual interest in beer and craft beer and everything. And it was, it was cool. That as part of the sensory evaluation class, If you were a homebrewer, they said bring your beer and we'll taste it. And I had brought some of my beers and we tasted them and people liked them. Greg really liked them. Ironically, it was, you know, since we were such an anti-fruit beer brewery in the beginning, it was a peach ale that I had made, ‘cause I was actually, one of my side jobs when I was a musician, was working for a farmer who came down for the Santa Monica farmer's market and I would sell his stone fruits, peaches and stuff. And so I got some awesome peaches and I decided to make a beer out of it. So funny. Downie: So leading the way with fruit beer. Wagner: Yup. Yup. And so yeah, I think, you know, that's sort of me running into him there and drinking some beers together and stuff. You know, here this guy was a successful entrepreneur, and I was interested in getting into beer and we, you know, we started talking about maybe we should start our own brewery. I think we were both back in LA and we, you know, we did some home brews together and just kinda hung out together and started talking about things and seeing if we could see a way to do, you know, to start our brewery. So. Downie: Yeah. So Davis I think was in ‘94, ’93? Wagner: ’93 I think. I'm gonna say ‘93. Downie: I've got Greg’s textbooks from that. Wagner: Well we went back for some additional classes too. That might've been in ‘94, but I think that initial one was before that. Downie: So it really considering that Stone itself opened up in mid-year 1996... Wagner: Yeah. Downie: You worked on a pretty fast track to get Stone up and going. It seems like compared to what I'm seeing for some breweries now. Wagner: Yeah. I don't know. It felt like a pretty deliberate track to me ‘cause I actually, you know, in, in between there, I moved up to, had an opportunity to house sit for my brother and his soon to be wife up in Portland because they were taking the better part of a year off as a sabbatical. They both worked for Intel. They needed somebody to house sit for them. And so my wife Laura and I volunteered to go up and do that. And it, part of my thinking was, well, I'll find a job at a brewery up there, you know, get some hands-on experience and really make sure I, I enjoy the work and, you know, am as passionate about the work as I think I would be, you know. Yeah, so I think that was Spring of ‘94 that we moved up there and landed a job brewing for Pyramid shortly thereafter. Up in Kalama, Washington, you know, 30-minute commute North of Portland. And yeah, started, I mean I think I had two weeks of training and then they handed me the keys for the midnight night shift, the lone brewer in this pretty sizable plant at that point I was like, “Wow, this is happening pretty fast.’ But uh, Downie: How big was Pyramid? How many barrels do you remember? Wagner: I think they did about 90,000 barrels when I was there in ‘90. I was there through fall of ‘95, I guess. So, a little over a year, year and a half of it. It was great experience and I really loved, loved the work. You know, just the hands on of brewing and being part of a brewery like that. I had a lot of great mentors that I was able to learn a lot from . It was everything I had hoped it would be. In fact, I enjoyed it so much. I was happy to just keep working there. And eventually Greg got impatient like, ’Are we gonna do this or what?’ But I was like, ‘I don't know, I've enjoyed living in Portland.’ Downie: Yeah, it’s beautiful up there. Wagner: I’m enjoying working for a brewery, but you know, I realized ‘Yeah if we're going to do this, we need to do it.’ So, you know, so in some ways to me that seems like a longer timeline because I actually, you know, took the time to go get some hands-on experience and do that rather than just, ah, you know (inaudible). Downie: That was a very good deliberate move though to make sure that, you know, it wasn't just the activity of brewing but you could actually face the day-to-day work. Wagner: Yeah. Yup and it really helped me in, you know, shopping for our original equipment and putting the brewery together and how we wanted to do things and Pyramid had a pretty good focus on quality of their beer. And, you know, so that became one of our things at Stone too, was to, to create really consistent beers and beers that had decent shelf life. You know, the people would have the same experience every time they tried one. And that, that ended up being crucial for us because, you know, opening in 1996, that was kinda the beginning of the first shakeout in craft beer where a lot of people had rushed in who maybe didn't have brewing expertise and were looking to be quick buck and stuff. And there was a lot of issues with, you know, bad beer out there that wasn't consistent or had off flavors or different things. And so you know, I think that the time I spent at Pyramid really benefited us. The ability to pull off quality and consistency. So, because you know, when we first opened Stone and go out to try to sell our beer, I mean, Greg was the, you know, he was our lone salesman at the time. That's what I mean, he'd go out or it was all these, a lot of people who didn't want to take craft beer, they said, ‘No, we've done it’s a fad. You know , it's like the beer never tasted the same twice or you couldn't deliver it when we needed it. So we're not doing that anymore, you know?’ So that's what we were up against when we started the company. It was possibly the worst possible time to start it. Downie: Well, you sink or swim. Wagner: Yep, exactly. Downie: And so since you've been talking about your education, did you do any other education after opening Stone or were you just so busy with running Stone? Wagner: You know, before we had opened Stone, Greg and I would go to the craft brewers conference, the national conference, the annual conference. So, we would go to that every year. And as part of that, you know, obviously there there's a trade show, but they also do a lot of educational seminars and things like that. So, continued to take advantage of that. Even in the early days we would go to that and helped us keep up with what was happening in, you know, brewing techniques and science and equipment and stuff. Um, I'm trying to remember. I think I might have taken some other classes, but I think they might've been more finance- and accounting-focused because I had sort of assumed that hat in the brewery too, you know. It was interesting the dynamics when you start, at first I felt like all the pressure was on me, you know, to order the brewery equipment, get it installed, get it, get it working, get the beer to where I want it, you know, get the beer brewed and then all of a sudden all the pressure shifts to Greg. Right. It's like, ‘Well, here's all these kegs. You better go sell it.’ (Wagner and Downie laugh.) And to his credit, you know, he did it. But at that time, you know, maybe I was only brewing once a week or something. So, I took on the task of, you know, the invoices are coming in and collecting payments and paying our vendors and doing all that and just getting into the, you know, the accounting, finance end of it. And uh, never had really had experience doing that. But I kind of learned by doing and I realized I enjoyed being familiar with the numbers and understanding what was happening to the company, financially. So I really, you know, kind of had a… Downie: Somebody who got to watch those numbers. Wagner: Yes. Yup. It was important. Downie: So that does kind of answer down here in the Stone section. I did ask about your role in Stone's early years besides brewing. And of course, I have photographs from Greg's collection of all of you doing stuff. You know, building and you know, moving equipment and all that sort of thing. Wagner: Yeah. ‘Cause you know Greg had construction experience from building his rehearsal studio and that sort of stuff. So, he, he was very savvy with contractors and how to do that kind of stuff. So I focused more on, you know, figuring out the right brewery equipment for us and finding the best deal on that and getting it shipped. And he did a lot of the, you know, the construction stuff that we needed at the brewery, the trench drains, the different things. Downie: Was there ever a discussion between you and Greg about how the jobs were going to fall out or you just said, Greg, you've got the MBA, you've got , you know, and you just kind of naturally took that on and like you say, you were brewing once a week, so somebody had to deal with the invoicing, and all of the rest. Wagner: You know, there was always more than, you know, there was always too much to do. So it was, it was very much a chip in where you could ever, you could help type of situation, you know, whether it was deliver your keg to a customer who had run out over the weekend or something. You know, we both did a lot of that. You know, I would go out and do sales calls and things too, you know, to, to try to expand our, our impact. Yeah, it's very much a, you do whatever it takes type of thing. Downie: And Pizza Port was the first, in Solana Beach, was the first location to take a keg? Wagner: Yep. Yep. Downie: ‘Cause I've seen the plaque down there. Wagner: Yep. Yep. Greg, he tells a good story about that too. It gave us a very unrealistic view of the distribution business because they came and picked up the first keg ‘cause they wanted to be the first. We are like, ‘Oh this is easy. Everybody just comes to you and gets it.’ Right. Downie: Yeah. There you go. Wagner: That might've been the last time anybody did that. Downie: Other than maybe somebody picked up a keg for their own personal party, you know? Wagner: Yeah. Downie: You know you learn as you go along because that's really, there were so few models for a craft brewery, you know, a smaller brewery. You know, you can't take the models that work for AB (Anheuser Busch) or anybody else and apply them to you. It just doesn't work. Okay. So, um, we'll jump back up the list here. How, how, and why the name Stone Brewing. Oh good. You're laughing. Wagner: You can see the list of the names from the wheat beer that we did. We, we came up with a lot of names and we disagreed quite a bit about names, you know, I think, which was good. It kind of helped us make sure that we came up with something that we both thought was good and that usually it was better than something that only one of us thought was good. So , we went through a lot of lists of names and a lot of rejection of names that that didn't work for us. And, you know, I mean we came up on a deadline, right? We had called our corporation Koochenvagners kind of a play out our two names, but we're coming up to a deadline to, you know, we wanted to release a beer and we didn't have a name yet. And so we're feeling the pressure of that. And I think Greg came in with the name Stone one day. I think he might've had umlauts over it or something like that. (Laughs.) But, but there was something about it that I liked that it was just a simple and kind of classic and, not tied geographically to any place, you know, because we weren't sure we wanted that. We didn't, you know, there already was a San Diego Brewing Company, there already was a San Marcos Brewing Company. We kind of wanted to do something different. So, and I think also it stimulated a lot of kind of creative marketing ideas too. You know, the, you know, that as we thought of things that were made of stone and that the gargoyle kind of came out of that and our, you know, original tap handles were beach stones that we'd collect at the beach, which is probably illegal now, but we don't do it anymore. Yeah. It's funny because one of the (laughs) Downie: Probably the statute of limitations is out by now. Wagner: We started draft only, so we didn't have bottles, but one of the, the ideas that I came up with, you know, as we were thinking of slogans and stuff was, well Greg, our first one was “Welcome to the Stone Age”, you know, which is Greg's, which is kind of clever. I like that one. But I came up with one “Leave no stone unturned”, which we never actually used that. But now it's like a, you know we’re in a lawsuit with Keystone (MillerCoors) about them shortening their name to Stone. Now, they use that actually, which is funny. Downie: Oh, okay. Wagner: (Laughs.) A little side humor here. Downie: You know, that's an old, old, old phrase, you know, whoever decides to trademark gets it. And so you kind of said how the gargoyle because it's made of stone, became the representation. And also there's certainly text on the early bottles explaining, you know, the gargoyle protecting from bad taste and sort of… Wagner: I think we kinda felt like we needed to explain it ‘cause people like thought that it was the devil or something. I don't know what gargoyles actually do. You know, they protect them in their own churches. They protect against evil spirits. And so, you know, Greg and his creative mind kind of turned it into this protecting our beer from the evil spirits of cheap adjuncts and materials. Downie: That's a very good way explain it. Wagner: Yeah. Downie: And to eradicate the devil situation. Um, so, and you kind of talked about dealing with distribution issues. What about dealing with suppliers? I mean , since you were a smaller brewery again. Yeah. And was there much locally available or did you have to go far afield? Wagner: We had to go pretty far afield for, you know, no matter what it was brewing equipment, you know, raw materials. Obviously hops mostly came from, you know, Washington and Oregon. Malted barley came from, you know, Canada or the upper plains States in the US and, uh, even our water came from Colorado probably. (Laughter) Right. Yeah. You know, there were, there were people locally who could do good tradeswork and stuff. You know, we had, we had wonderful, uh, stainless steel welders and plumbers and you know, just great contractors and people to work with here locally in San Diego. But… Downie: But the actual supplies were another story… Wagner: Yep. That comes from the places that, you know, that's, that's tricky when you're not ordering a lot and you're trying to, you know, protect cashflow and things that you could, you know, you can find yourself short sometimes and critical moments. But you know, that's one of the, what are the cool things about craft beer that we found out very early on is that people are very supportive. And fellow brewers, you know, obviously Pizza Port, you know, Gina and Vince (Marsaglia). I mean they had their own brewery and their own place and still they wanted to serve our beer, you know, help us out and just, just passionate about good craft beer. So that's willingness to help and to, you know, sell somebody a bag of malt if they come up short or some hops or things like that. It still carries on to this day, which is pretty incredible. A lot of businesses like that. Downie: Well, I mean, I have the articles, copy of the articles of incorporation for the San Diego Brewers Guild from 1996 with Greg’s signature on it. And so that shows that, you know, early on there was this established environment of work together and cooperate or it's not going to happen, which I think was just really essential to the success of San Diego craft brewing. Wagner: Definitely. Downie: ‘Cause I get, I get that question from people elsewhere. It's like, ‘Well, why San Diego?’ And it's like, well I know that they've always collaborated with each other. When you don't fight with each other, you can spend your energy doing better things, hopefully surviving, you know. And so, how has your role changed over the years? You know, I mean early on you were, you know, were of course doing the brewing, but when I talked to you one time I asked when was the last time you brewed and you just kind of went, ‘I don’t know.’ Wagner: I am actually brewing tomorrow. Downie: Oh good! Good for you. Wagner: Probably ‘cause you asked me that. I'm like, gosh, it's been too long. Downie: You have to get back to your roots once in a while. Wagner: Yeah, definitely. Um, so let's see. How has my role changed? Yeah, I mean like in the, you know, in the early years, besides doing , I mean for the first six months or so, I did all the production work, you know, the brewing, the filtering, the packaging, everything, and then, you know, gradually was able to get some part time help and, you know, because I ended up managing the distribution part of things, you know, just the, the logistics and the managing the drivers and the warehouse. You know, as we started to add people. At first I think we just had drivers pull the beer and load their own truck and um, you know, manage the flow of invoicing and payments, and then accounts receivable, accounts payable, Human Resources. And to start doing that, you know, I was doing payroll and everything. So kind of doing all the operations and back office stuff. While Greg was out selling and he, you know, continued to create marketing momentum for us with all of his great ideas and things. Downie: So at what point did you formalize the HR and like release doing the payroll and things like that? Wagner: Yeah, I mean, we didn't, yeah, we probably waited too long to get some professional HR help. Yeah, at one point, I promoted my assistant, I had a kind of an assistant who was, you know, sort of an office manager type person to doing payroll and of some of the basic HR filings and stuff like that. But, yeah, I'm trying to remember how that transitioned exactly. But gradually we, we realized, you know, that it's a, it's something that needs to be done by the book and you know, somebody needs to pay attention to it very carefully. And so, we started hiring professional folks to do that. Downie: There are so many facets besides the brewing that, you know, really have legal ramifications if nothing else. And then, you know, employee climate. Wagner: Yup. Downie: Do you want to make sure you're doing things right and your employees are happy? Wagner: Yeah, absolutely. Wagner: So, yeah. Um, yeah, that's, that's one area that's gotten a lot more complex and difficult in the 22 years that we've been in business too. You know, plus as your company grows there, you know, a lot more rules and laws come into play. Right. When you're smaller kind of, you know, when you're under 10 people, it's pretty simple. When you're between 10 and 50, it gets more complex once you’re over 50 that it's, you know, you get the whole rule book thrown it. It was a lot to keep track of and lots to make sure you're doing right. Downie: Well, something I've gotten a sense of from just the photographs I was going through to scan for the documentary (The Beer Jesus from America), it seemed like there were a lot of events for employees. You know, either charity events like Dye Your Head Red. Um, there was also something where people had green hair at one point? Wagner: Well, we were doing it, I don't know if we did it every year, but at one point we're doing it every other year and we would change the color each time we did it. So, it would kind of rotate between blue, red, or green. Downie: Okay. I haven't seen any blue hair photographs, but there's a very distinct one where Lee Chase was walking around and obviously they had had to bleach his hair white in order to dye it green and it was up in what I call ‘the Smurf comb up’, you know, and it's like, wow, that's, that's really throwing himself into the green hair thing. But it seemed like it was something that the employees could get into and have some fun. But you also had a charity element. So, did Stone have a charity element from the beginning? Wagner: Uh, from our, yeah, I mean, because, you know, we, we realized early on, it's one of the best ways to get your brewery name out there is that, you know, California law allows brewers to donate beer to charities for their events. And so , um, you know, that became our grassroots marketing. We didn't have money to spend on marketing. You know, we're not buying advertising or anything. We still don't do that. But it was a low-cost way to get out there and tell our story, you know. So, we would, um, donate beer to these events and then we'd go and set up a booth and you know, pour the beer and tell people about us. And, uh, you know, it was just word of mouth that, you know, it's great, ‘cause people get sample the beer and taste and decide if they like it, but also they see you're out supporting the community in supporting nonprofits and things. So it was really an effective way to, to market and grow our company. And it's, you know, just sort of something Greg and I like to do anyways, you know, be involved in. Downie: Yeah. And it certainly has established a model where you see a lot of that going on now with even the very tiny, tiny craft breweries, which is wonderful. You know, charities need all the help they can get. Wagner: So that was the sort of the turning point was, I guess it was our second anniversary ‘cause our first anniversary we just had it within the brewery, you know, our licensed operations area. ‘Cause it was, you know, pretty small and we didn't charge admission or anything. And, but then the second year we, you know, we wanted to make it bigger and have more people and so to do, in order to do that you have to partner with a charity. They have to pull a special one-day license to allow you to, we wanted to take over a little bit in the parking lot to have our anniversary. And so that's kind of what started it. You know, we went to the, to the mayor I think in San Marcos and said, you know, we need a charity partner that we can partner with to do this anniversary party that we want to do. They said, ‘You know, Boys and Girls Club San Marcos is best organization in town. So why don’t you talk to them?’ That's, you know, they ended up getting me on the Board of Directors for 10 years there. A couple, couple terms as chair of the board and we continue to support them because it's a, you know, great organization that's doing wonderful work for them, the youth of San Marcos. Downie: So there are so many, how do you spread yourself and how do you choose between all of these very deserving causes? Wagner: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does get difficult. And so we're kind of in the mode now or, I mean the good news is that there's a lot more brewers in town too. So, it's like if we say we, you know, we're already supporting the maximum number of organizations we can right now. We can't take on another one, but here's some other great local brewers that would likely be happy to support them. Downie: Again, part of that collaboration and directing people, you know, whenever I worked with somebody and I can't give them what they need in the way of research help, I try to get them somewhere where they can. I mean that's just, I think that's just good humanity if nothing else. So excellent. Wagner: But that was kind of where it turned from, you know, us supporting the nonprofits by donating beer to them, to us realizing, you know, it's our anniversary, but it became more popular and we partnered with a charity that we could charge admission and raise this money and then raise our own funds to give to the, the nonprofits that's become, you know, really the way we create most of the funding that we do for local non-profits. Downie: I’m a member of Society of Barley Engineers they’re very tolerant of my dumb questions about brewing and they're always real pleased to be involved with, you know, homebrewing the sodas that you know are good for the designated driver. Wagner: They always do some really crazy stuff too. It fits in well. Downie: With the 21st Anniversary, I was walking around and I saw a young, obviously quite pregnant young woman and her three friends were all drinking. So obviously she was the designated driver and I said, ‘Do you realize that there is non-alcoholic soda here that you can have?’ ‘Cause she wasn't drinking. It's like kind of, you need to stay hydrated. She was like, ‘Oh great!’ You know, so she was able to get something. Wagner: They always have some amazing ones too. I always try them when I’m there. They're just… Downie: Yeah, they pride themselves on, you know, coming up with something new and different. And a couple of the Barley Engineers now have collaborated with Stone on beers. Chris Banker with Xocovesa and Corey Magers with Mojay. I don't know of any others, but then I haven't really surveyed the home brewing clubs to see who else has done this. Wagner: I’m not sure who else from the Society of Barley Engineers. Downie: It's on my list of, you know, further research. Wagner: There's definitely some other, there's some folks from QUAFF (Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity). I think some other ones too, that uh, won the homebrewers contest that we do. So yeah. Downie: When did you start the homebrewers contest, do you remember? Wagner: Gosh, that's a good question. Downie: I know it's hard to ask for dates. Wagner: Well, it wasn't until we had the bistro (located in Escondido) open ‘cause we would do it at the bistro. So, it was either 2007 probably would have been the earliest . But yeah, it certainly wasn't long after that, I can look back at the beers probably and find out when we released the first beer, which is probably the Ken Schmidt, the coconut porter. Downie: I think somebody who said… Wagner: ‘Maui Ken’ Schmidt. So, the original that I can find that out. Downie: Yeah. I have people ask me things like that. You know, when was the first this, when was the first that I'm like… Wagner: It’s not in here is it (referring to Stone timeline from their website)? Downie: I don't remember how far. I think that ends about 2006 on most of its information. Wagner: So the AleSmith/Mikkeller/Stone (collaboration beer)/ Let's see. We did some with brewers that says the Ken Schmidt one was 2009. Downie: Okay. Wagner: That was the winner of the Stone Age. That might've been the first one. Downie: Okay. Oh, of course they'll remember. Wagner: ‘Cause then we did the 2010 was with Kelsey McNair, I think he was in QUAFF. Right. And he started North Park. Downie: Yeah. He would've been in QUAFF. Wagner: North Park Beer Company that says. Yeah. Downie: Okay. I see. Good thing I brought that list. So, when you started Stone, you started with the IPA? Wagner: Well, Stone Pale Ale. Downie: Stone Pale Ale, okay. Downie: And then where did Arrogant Bastard fall in, into your first beers? Wagner: So the Stone Pale Ale was the first beer, released in July of ‘96 and then our second beer was, we did a, a seasonal called Winter Stone that I think was probably released in November of that year. And then we ended up keeping it around ‘cause we had a few customers who really liked it on draft. And so we changed the name to Stone Smoked Porter and kept brewing it. So that was our second beer. Downie: Stone Smoked Porter ‘cause I've seen those bottles and I think I've seen a Winter Stone. Wagner: Yeah. And now I'm talking about the year-round beers. So there may have been a couple of other ones in there. But then the Stone IPA was released on our first anniversary, so July of ‘97. So that was our third full time beer. And then I don't think Arrogant Bastard came out until 1998, till November of ‘98 I believe. We had the other year-round beers because we started doing some bottling then. Yeah. Just keeping up with what we had. Downie: So it was late ‘98 when you started bottling? Wagner: (paper rustling) I believe so. Okay. I'll confirm that . I think it's pretty sure it's (November of ’98). Downie: Well since when I asked you about that date code on the bottles and you made the very good point that that was probably when the bottles were printed, not when they were filled. I was like, ‘Oh yeah, that would make perfectly good sense.’ Okay. Now I don't even have to worry about the dates on the bottle anymore because that can be from any time really. That was, there went, a myth ‘cause I saw Chris Cochran, just after that and I said, well Chris, because Chris and Greg and both said, we think this is when the bottles were when beers were brewed. I said, well, Steve says, because you bought bottles and they sat in the warehouse, he goes, Oh, okay. So you know, busting that mythology there, which brings me to… Wagner: Yeah we used to put the date on the case boxes at first. You know, we didn't have the technology to put it actually on the bottle. It was, we were doing these little (inaudible) bottling machines. Downie: Yeah, yeah. You're, you're running lean and mean. You've got to get it out there. Yeah. But that does bring me to another mythology which, how Arrogant Bastard was born. You know, the higher hopped beer. I have heard from people who of course want to speak with some authority, but you would be the authority, that you accidentally double hopped a batch of beer. Wagner: I did. That is absolutely true. I think everybody agrees on that. You know, we were working out of Greg's condo in Solana Beach to, you know, start the business basically. And I was doing a lot of research on equipment and then I was also doing some pilot batches to, you know, work on some, some recipes for some of the beers. And we had, I had my own kind of homebrew equipment, then we invested in a nicer system that a little bit more capacity, I think it was like a 10-gallon system or something like that. It's, so it was one of the first brews I was doing on that system. And so all my calculations changed on volume bitterness units and all that stuff. I screwed up the first calculation and I way over hopped this beer. (Laughs) Downie: But then you didn't release the results of this mistake until a couple of years after being established. Wagner: We have differing opinions, Greg and I recall it differently because we definitely know I screwed it up. The question was, I think I thought I realized it right at the time and I just wanted to dump the batch, you know, Greg said, to my memory Greg said, ‘No, let's, you know, you've already made it. We might as well let it ferment and then we’ll bottle it. And then Greg's memory of it is that I didn't realize it until we tasted the bottles and then it's like, ‘Ah, geez, I messed this one up.’ and Greg is ‘This is the best beer I've ever had.’ Downie: Okay. Well it's nice to actually be able to say definitively that part that, that mythology is true. And so what is your role in developing new beers now? Wagner: You know what, I don't have a huge role other than, you know, tasting the new stuff that we come up with. Maybe making some comments here and there if there's things that I don't think are quite, quite what we're looking for, but, we have a super creative team and I'm happy to enjoy the fruits of their labors. We've got an innovation team with three guys, Chris Ketchum and Jeremy Moynier and Steve Gonzalez. They're just making unbelievable beers. It used to be such pressure for me to come up with a new beer as well, you know, doing all this other work in my day job and all this stuff. It's kind of nice when we got to that point where other people can contribute. You know, Lee Chase was the first who helped out with that. And then Mitch Steele came on board. You really embrace that, which is nice for me because… Downie: Speaking of Mitch (Steele) and Lee (Chase), did they start as volunteers or did they start as paid employees? Wagner: Yeah, I don't think we had volunteers that I recall. Lee started part time ‘cause he was, you know, he had been working at Brewers Union down in San Diego, the brew-your-own place and then I think he was working at White Labs too, maybe even doing some stuff for Pizza Port. But yeah, we hired him part time to help me with the brewing and kegging stuff ‘cause I just couldn't keep up with everything. Then eventually we got to the point where we're able to make him full time. Downie: And then he went out on his own. Wagner: Great job of growing with us for a long time. He was with us for 10 years or something. Super creative guy. Yeah, doing great on his own. Downie: Yeah. And he's a, he's another hard person to reach. But I am persistent. If nothing else, it does pay off eventually. What happened to your early brewing equipment? Wagner: Uh, my earliest brewing equipment, I actually have it. Yeah, do you want it? my musician friend, The guy Doug Freeman, still mine who invited me to homebrew with we, uh, I have that equipment actually. Downie: Yeah. If it's not as big as this (holds arms out indicating the current brewhouse), Wagner: it’s a 5 gallon. Downie: I would love to have it. That would be wonderful. Oh, I would love to have it because that's one thing I don't have is you know, equipment because that's kind of a space factor. But the, where it all started very first time, that would be…Oh, that would be so incredible, that that would just be so much fun. Wagner: Alright, it would make my wife very happy. Downie: And I'm sure, yeah. That's what I get from a number of the wives of brewers. It's like, ‘Oh, you'll only take that much?’ Oh, I can only take so much and I don't want anything that is not San Diego related. I'm sorry ‘cause I have women going, ‘He's got a hundred growlers and they're from all over the country.’ The boss has told me to stop collecting growlers. I’ve got about 45 so far. But the artwork on them is so incredible, you know, I mean I think just everything that you do to represent yourself says so much. Wagner: Yeah. Downie: It's like Karl Strauss and Ballast Point and they've changed their logos. They've changed their stories a little bit. So yeah, I just, I just love to collect real stuff because then people get really excited when they see, you know, a piece of paper they don't get too excited about, but when they see the real thing, they just get really excited and happy. Um, so, just if you care to talk about this, a couple of lows and highs in the progression of Stone, things that have happened that… Wagner: Let's see, I mean, you know, some of the highs were, let's see, in the early days, that'd be just some big wins on getting our beer to some places that, you know. I remember one of them, because one of the reasons I used to come down here was because my brothers were in school at UCSD and I was, I was already out of college and I was living in Los Angeles, but I'd come down and visit them and we'd go to the Del Mar racetrack and stuff. You know, it was just fun thing to do on the weekends and you know, so when we first got Stone Pale Ale on tap at the Del Mar racetrack, I thought, ‘Wow, it doesn't get any better than this.’ Yes, they're just little things. but just those little incremental things, sometimes... Downie: Well, they may feel a little but, that was really a big thing getting, getting out there with so many different people are going to be tasting your beer. That's huge. Wagner: So, yeah, that's what I remember I mean, you know, the first time that we'd started shipping our beer to another state, to Arizona. That's pretty big deal. Downie: Yeah. Especially Arizona was early. I mean, they passed Prohibition four or five years before the nation did. Yeah. That they were one of the reasons San Diego Brewing failed, or Mission Brewing, failed pre-prohibition because Mission was making Hopski which was a near beer and Arizona wouldn't even allow that in the state. And that's what actually caused Mission to shutter. Oh, I've got all kinds of weird little historical trivia. Wagner: Yeah. Let's see. The low points. I don't know. The, you know, the losing good people is always tough, you know? Um, what do you feel like you've let them down or something and not been able to provide the career path or the compensation they need or whatever it is. You know, sometimes that hits you hard when it's somebody who, really, really valuable member of the team that moves on from whatever is, it could be personal reasons, can be professional reasons. Um, those were some low points. You know, obviously Greg talks about when we got turned down by the distributor, you know? Yeah, yeah. That was a pretty big setback. Yeah. Downie: That, that would be terrifying. Wagner: Yeah. I dunno for me though, it was just, it just made me mad and it's like, alright, let me just, we're going to beat these guys at their own game. That we’re going to take action in those situations. But yeah, you know, it's, you don't really know how long you have to make a success of it, you know, and how long can the negative cashflow go on before decides just not gonna make it, you know, and we were close to that point. So it was definitely an inflection point. Downie: Do you have a year that you realize you had gone into the black? Wagner: I think it was about, I think it was probably ‘99 was probably our first profitable year. I can look back and I might still have some of those. Downie: Yeah, well that's not, that's not because Peter (Zien) at AleSmith says it was six, six years or so before he actually… Wagner: I think it was the first full year with Arrogant Bastard. ‘Cause I think that kind of took off pretty quickly for us. It really changed things around. You know, because we had just been trying to grow in San Diego and you know, do it the hard way. Right. Just hand to hand. So, it was a slow road, but that kind of gave a us a big shot in the arm. Downie: Well, a name like that, you know, I mean if nothing else, people are gonna buy it just because of the name. Yeah. Okay. Well then, I know we've talked about this before, but for the record, if Stone hadn't worked out, you know, I mean you did have a time where you came close, I'm sure. What would have been your plan B? Wagner: Yeah, I think the plan B, I mean I definitely wanted to stay involved in craft beer, you know, enjoyed brewing and a lot of aspects for it. So, you know, I thought about that since we talked a little bit last time. I think it probably would have been moving back up to Portland because both of my brothers and their families lived up there. Uh, looking for a job with a brewery up there. Really enjoyed living up there too. Downie: Yeah. Well I liked your, your response last time you said, ‘I didn't think about it.’ It wasn’t not going to happen. Wagner: I thought about it since you said like ‘What would we have done?’ Probably, you know… Downie: So, well it seems like you were so busy you didn't have time to think about what that plan B would be. Wagner: It’s really true, I think we're so focused on just a… Downie: Yeah, if you don't admit that there could be failure, you know, you haven't left yourself anywhere, but to go, but keep going, I guess. Wagner: I feel like we just put our heads down and just kept working with it. Downie: You obviously, you obviously did, I mean some of the photos from the buildout on Mata Way. I mean, obviously you're just, you're asleep in your chair. You just kept going until you couldn't go anymore. But you know that that hard work has paid off here 22 years later, 23 years later. So do you have any words of wisdom for future brewers? Wagner: Wow. Yeah, you know I used to say all those things like ‘chase your dreams’ and ‘if it's your passion’ stuff but the way the industry is now, I'm not sure. (Laughs) I'm not sure the best advice to give somebody, but, yeah, I mean, if you're, I would say if it's, if you're willing to commit everything to it and work harder than you've ever worked and you know, and you should only do that because you really love it. Then, yeah. I mean it's, it's great to do something that you love. You know, I think, I think you, you know, you have to have realistic financial expectations these days. You know, people aren’t going to grow into a $1 billion company probably at this point, you know, but, uh, but if you are passionate about it and you can find a lifestyle that works for you with the, you know, with that sort of employment or a job, I think it's, there's something to be said for it. Downie: Yeah. And Stone has certainly given rise to a lot of other brewers who have gained experience here and then gone out and been successful. Wagner: So it's not just us, it's the other brewers that had been around for a while too. Downie: Yeah. I tried to develop a genealogy, kind of you know, who had worked where with who and I gave up. It was such an inner tangled, shifting, people popping back and forth. I said, no, somebody else can do that. I'll just track the breweries because they're a fixed space and I can deal with it. Wagner: That, um, that would be a very complicated… Downie: What was the, I'm sure you and Greg have probably talked about where does Stone go from here, you know, as far as both expansion and what, when you both say ‘we want to step back, we want to retire’. Or whatever. Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's something we're, we're, you know, we're actively trying to figure out every day pretty much. It's how can we leave the company independent and you know, still a going enterprise, you know, when we're not involved anymore, can't be involved anymore. So that's still our goal. You know, we want to leave a company that has the ability to go its own way and not be told what to do. Uh, you know, be run by the people who work here. Downie: And hopefully hold to your founding principles of, you know, the quality, consistency... Wagner: Yeah. Downie: No paid advertising, you know, just good, good culture for people to work at and, and, and all of those. I mean, it seems like you've developed a very good, strong core of principles that have really served Stone well. Wagner: Yup. Downie: Hopefully they will remain. Wagner: Yeah. You know, we're, we're trying to figure that out. It doesn't seem like it'll be a family business at this point. You know, my sons are still a little young, not even sure if that something they'd be interested in. You know, Greg doesn't have any kids or anything, so it's not, it's not going to be like a family business that's passed on generation to generation probably. So, yeah. Downie: Well, have your children ever come in and like work for the summer helping out? Wagner: My youngest son was a host at the restaurant this summer. Downie: Okay. I'm never sure, I'm never sure if that's really a good insight into the world of, you know, the food and beverage business. Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. People are not always that pleasant. It was good for him because he needed to come out socially a little bit. So, you know, you're having to deal with strangers and be nice to them and make them happy. That's a good thing. Downie: Yeah, that's, it certainly it makes you appreciate what service staff go through. Wagner: Yup. Downie: If you work a little bit of it yourself, it's a very different world for them on the other side. And are there any styles of beer you have not tried? You know , I mean, it seems like there was a real explosion of beer styles for a while. Now, you know, the Brut IPA is the most recent thing I've heard of, but are there other styles that you have heard of that you haven't tried or other styles that you see Stone maybe experimenting with or at least investigating? Wagner: Uh, let's see. I'm sure there's styles that I haven't tried, but they're, they're probably more the historical, obscure type ones that, you know, maybe nobody’s brewing anymore or has tried to brew in a long time. Downie: They're not being made for a reason. Wagner: That’s right, most of them, most of them are not accepted styles. That'd be both, you know, between being a judge at GABF probably judged all the categories, the hundred or whatever there are, including the malt liquor category. Sometimes you have to pay your price. I mean, as far as places we’re looking or, I mean, you know, one of the nice things is having a brewery in Berlin now that sort of opened up a whole new range of things we can do there, you know, as it relates to more traditional styles, more traditional European styles and things. So, it's kinda fun to experiment with those, you know, doing the Berlinerweisse and doing some different Pilsners and lagers and things like that. So, yeah, I dunno, there's nothing we'd rule out, you know, I mean, there's such a lot of, uh, innovation going on with hop varieties and stuff that's really exciting to us. So, obviously we're doing a lot of different IPAs using those, you know, testing new hop varieties for the growers and things. Uh, let's see. Yeah, I don't know. Downie: Well, there's, there's still lots, still lots out there available to experiment. Wagner: You know, the ability to create new flavors and beers is pretty much limitless, I think. So we still want to be leading that charge for sure. Downie: But never giving up on your stable, the stable core beers. Wagner: Yeah. You still have to sell beer too. Downie: But somebody was bemoaning the oaken, the Oaked Arrogant Bastard and how much he missed that. And that was I just like ‘Never had it, can’t say.’ Wagner: The beautiful thing is we, you know, we reserve the right to bring back any beer at any time if we want to. Pretty much any of them we could brew again and we probably will at some point just for fun. Downie: Yeah. As long as those particular hops and all are still available. Wagner: Yeah. The Stone Pale Ale, although somebody told me, I was talking to Jeremy or somebody who told me something. They said that some of the growers are starting to plant the Ahtanum hop again. I guess, which is interesting. So I have to keep posted on that, we might have to do a throw back version of the Stone Pale Ale. Downie: What was old is new again. Wagner: Yeah, exactly. Downie: Well, is there anything that you would like to contribute to this history that we haven't touched on? Wagner: I'll have to think of that a little bit if I could get a second swing at it. But, no, I just think it's an amazing story of how San Diego ended up being this epicenter of it, you know, Capital of Craft™ and just, uh, you know, my best memories are just the wonderful people in this industry. You know, I consider many of them friends, just really good people who you know really pull together and help each other out. And I just thought that's something that we can keep going, you know, as it gets more competitive and things like that. ‘Cause it's, it's a pretty special place to be. Downie: Yes, exactly. Yeah I told Jen (Jennifer Fabbi, Dean of the CSUSM Library) , I said, if, if this was a combative industry, I would have come back to you and said, no, we do not want to get involved. Yeah. But I said, everybody has been collaborative and sharing and open and enthusiastic, which has really made developing the Brewchive® a joy because, I think there's, I don't know if the stars aligned right for San Diego or what, but it does seems like it's a really, there's something about this area and the people in it that has just created a very good place for the craft beer industry to be successful and be collaborative. Wagner: Yeah. And I think if there's one, one thing in particular that Stone did to make that happen was to take our beers outside of San Diego, you know, and probably the first ones to get any sort of serious distribution outside of Southern California to attract attention for, you know, Arrogant Bastard and then Stone IPA and some of those beers that, you know, I mean obviously there's a lot of tourism and military stuff for the word would spread about San Diego breweries, but we actually got the beer out there to the East Coast and other places where people, helped people realize, wow, there's something going on in San Diego. Downie: Yeah. And somebody sampling it here, they may not have any pull where when they go home to get the beer brought in. So yeah, you have to kind of push it to a receptive community. Wagner: You have to convince the distributor that you know that it will succeed or that there's people that would, Downie: And so now there Stone brewing, Stone has a distributorship. Um, I know Greg's got like the nut butter thing going on. (Wagner laughs) It seems like there's becoming a many-headed Hydra, not in a negative way. Wagner: That’s not a Stone thing (nut butter) though , that's, you know, he's got a couple other things he's involved in, you know, whether it's the, yeah, the nut butter or the wine thing, there are some other breweries and things. And I've got a little bit of that too with some of the brewers that I help out. But, yeah, I don't know. I think, you know, our three big pillars are obviously the brewery is the big one and continue to make beer that people want to buy and the challenges and the distribution. It's just a key strategic thing for us that allows us to control our brand and our sales in our home market. That's something that we'll always have that, you know, no matter how rough it gets out there and other parts of the country and stuff, we feel confident that we can, you know, always have strong sales here in Southern California. And then, uh, the hospitality is basically our marketing. You know, we don't invest a lot in advertising or those sort of traditional things for us. It's creating a good experience where people come to your place and you know, they leave and the next day they go to the store, they want to buy a six pack of Stone because they have these fond memories, you know. So far it’s worked. Will it continue to work? We’ll have to see. Downie: Well, sounds like it will. Well, I will end the interview here. I want to thank you so very much, Steve. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wagner, Steve. Interview October 24, 2018. Description An account of the resource Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24.mp3 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-24 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steve Wagner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Stone Brewing Company (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County University of California, Davis Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Evanston (Ill.) California -- Santa Cruz County -- Santa Cruz Los Angeles (Calif.) Portland (Or.) San Marcos (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) 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Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wagner, Steve. Interview transcript, October 24. 2018. Description An account of the resource Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steve Wagner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-24 Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Stone Brewing Company (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County University of California, Davis Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Evanston (Ill.) California -- Santa Cruz County -- Santa Cruz Los Angeles (Calif). Portland (Or.) San Marcos (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p class="p2"><a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en." target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a></p> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_transcript Brewchive(r) Community history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lucy Wheeler Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Susan Cupaiuolo OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CupaiuoloSusan_WheelerLucy_2023-02-23_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Cupaiuolo, Susan. Interview February 23, 2023 SC027-24 0:41:03 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral histories collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Blueberries Cherimoya Orchards -- California -- Vista Tree crops Vista (Calif.) Susan Cupaiuolo Lucy Wheeler mp4 CupaiuoloSusan_WheelerLucy_2023-02-23_access.mp4 1:|13(1)|23(5)|31(7)|40(8)|47(3)|54(11)|61(1)|69(8)|77(9)|85(8)|95(3)|104(3)|111(7)|120(11)|130(14)|140(12)|148(9)|158(12)|166(1)|174(11)|184(6)|192(9)|204(13)|213(2)|222(12)|232(2)|240(9)|247(11)|255(12)|263(6)|271(8)|281(3)|289(5)|301(2)|313(2)|328(3)|336(10)|367(2)|387(7)|401(10)|415(6) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/7519142da692856f004bf07f963d4a93.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction about North County para-agriculture / Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo’s story The interview begins with an introduction to North County’s para-agriculture, which has been largely overlooked despite San Diego making up a large portion of the county’s agriculture. Susan Cupaiuolo discusses the life of her husband Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo, whom was called “Nino.” She explains that Nino grew up in Milan, Italy during World War II. Nino did not have a farming background. Instead, Nino worked in the field of international marketing and worked in the United States and Europe for forty years. She also explains that Nino loved growing a garden in the Orange County home that she shared with his first wife. Nino passed away in 2020 at the age of eighty-six years old. agriculture ; farming ; farms ; Independent farming ; Milan (Italy) ; Orange County (Calif.) ; para-agriculture 235 Marriage to Cupaiuolo/ Purchasing the farm Susan Cupaiuolo recounts the early days of her marriage to Nino Cupaiuolo, where they lived in Michigan before moving to Orange County, CA. She also recalls when Nino first introduced her to the avocado fields in Vista, CA that they would eventually turn into their cherimoya farm, The Primavera Orchard. agriculture ; Cherimoya ; farming ; farms ; Independent farming ; Michigan ; Orange County (Calif.) ; para-agriculture ; The Primavera Orchard ; Vista (Calif.) 456 Managing a farm/ Background on cherimoyas Susan Cupaiuolo discusses how she and Nino developed and managed a cherimoya farm. She explains that managing a farm is a long-term investment and that farmers may sometimes invest a lot of money, time, research, and other resources into their farm in order to see results. Cupaiuolo also discusses cherimoyas, their origins, and tips on growing and pollinating cherimoyas in the Southern Californian climate. Cupaiuolo had also brought a few cherimoyas to the interview, which she displays to the camera. Agriculture ; Cherimoya ; Ecuador ; Farming ; Farming techniques ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Peru ; Subtropical fruit ; Vista (Calif.) 850 Local resources Susan Cupaiuolo discusses local resources that she has found beneficial in her experience in farming. She recommends programs such as the University of California Cooperative Extension for soil analysis labs, as well as organizations such as the California Rare Fruit Growers, the California Cherimoya Association, and the Master Gardner Association for their workshops and other resources. She highlights the University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department and the South Coast Research and Extension Center for their agricultural research. Cupaiuolo also stresses the importance of the internet for making research on farming easier and more accessible to the general public. Agriculture ; California Rare Fruit Growers ; Cherimoya ; Farming ; Farming techniques ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Irvine (Calif.) ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Para-agriculture ; Research ; San Diego (Calif.) ; Soil analysis ; South Coast Research and Extension Center ; The California Cherimoya Association ; The County of San Diego Cooperative Extension ; The Farm and House Advisor ; The Master Gardener Association ; The United States Department of Agriculture ; The University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department ; University of California Cooperative Extension 1047 Selling produce and relationships with customers Susan Cupaiuolo discusses the business-side of managing a farm. Independently-owned grocery stores were an important avenue to individual farmers like the Cupaiuolos. She also discusses other avenues for where individual farmers can earn revenue and connect to the community, and recounts their experiences at farmers markets, free tasting events, and delivering to customers directly. She explains that their experience working with customers in these capacities helped build relationships and loyalty. Farm tours also facilitated socialization within their community. Agriculture ; Business ; Cherimoya ; Connecting with community ; Customers ; Farming ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Socialization in farming ; Vista (Calif.) 1494 Research and record-keeping in farming Susan Cupaiuolo discusses record-keeping strategies for farming. Specifically, record-keeping was beneficial to the Cupaiuolos for documenting their blueberry harvests. She explains that Nino collaborated with the Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program and the Farm Bureau and documented the blossoms, production, weight, soil, temperature, and varieties of blueberries. Cupaiuolo describes her role in blueberry record-keeping as financial and also explains the profit they made from selling the fruit. Agriculture ; Blueberries ; Farming ; Farming techniques ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Peru ; Record-keeping ; Research ; The Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program ; The Farm Bureau ; Vista (Calif.) 1835 Selling the farm/ Innovation in farming Susan Cupaiuolo briefly discusses the process of selling the farm to a new family after Nino’s death. She also discusses the importance of innovation in farming and explains that their farm was ahead of technological innovations in terms of the installation of an advanced irrigation system, solar panels, and a cell tower in the early 2000s. She recalls Nino’s artistic mind and speculates that his creativity allowed him to create these advanced designs for their farm. Agriculture ; Farming ; Farming irrigation ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Innovation in farming ; Irrigation ; Para-agriculture ; Technological innovations ; The Primavera Orchard ; Vista (Calif.) 2160 Advice to future farmers/ Agriculture economy Susan Cupaiuolo briefly offers advice to individuals who may be interested in starting their own farm. She suggests when buying a farm, it is imperative to have an understanding of the history of farming, the labor needed to sustain a farm, and the current economy and real-estate market. She further discusses the economy of individual farming, especially the competition farmers face against one another. Advice ; Agriculture ; Agriculture economy ; Competition in farming ; Economy ; Farming ; Farming advice ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Real estate market Moving image The Primavera Orchard was owned and operated by Giovanni and Susan Cupaiuolo from 1991 until Nino’s death in 2020 in Vista, California. It was a six acre peri-urban farm specializing in the growth, preparation, promotion and detailed hand-pollinated fruit from a variety of cherimoya trees. Cherimoya trees are a tropical fruit tree which will only grow in Southern California and are very expensive due to the complicated and dedicated care of the trees and cultivations. The Cupaiuolos later introduced blueberries to the area to provide this northern fruit into the local markets during the northern dormant season. Other fruits and vegetables were grown for personal use. Lucy Wheeler: Good afternoon. My name is Lucy Wheeler and it&#039 ; s February the 23rd, 2023. We&#039 ; re here to interview Susan-- Susan Cupaiuolo: Cupaiuolo. Wheeler: Kupaiyalo. Thank you. (Cupaiuolo chuckles) Uh, this is in behalf of the North County Oral History Initiative being put on by Cal State and San Marcos and the Museum of History here in San Marcos. The history of our North County--and just as a preliminary to your story, Susan--the county of San Diego is a very unique situation in that it&#039 ; s the ninth largest city in the United States, but it&#039 ; s in the community of the county. The fourth largest industry is agriculture, and most of that, or 70% of that, is soon to be in the North County. Part of that agricultural industry makes it a--well, it&#039 ; s the largest area in the United States with the most farms. Your story shows one of the areas of that agriculture which is kind of overlooked, and that is, in 2017 the county of San Diego estimated and actually counted that there were 5,000 small para-farmers, which is ten acres or less, and how they operate. And your story can bring us a wealth of information to that. So, with that beginning, tell us a little bit about yourself, your husband, where you were born, and what your interest in agriculture was. Cupaiuolo: (nods) I&#039 ; d be glad to give some background on this. My husband was Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo. He died in October 2020 at the height of the pandemic. Uh, he was 86 years old. He had been in declining health physically and cognitively, and I just wish that he were here to tell this adventure, but I&#039 ; ll do my best to--to share it. Um, I&#039 ; m going to call him &quot ; Nino.&quot ; He grew up in Milan, Italy during World War II. He had one brother. His father was from Naples and his mother from Sicily. Farming was not in his background, and, um, I&#039 ; m setting that up as making sure we don&#039 ; t have these assumptions about Italians who grew up on farms and have these big families, okay? Because that&#039 ; s--that&#039 ; s not the--the way it was for him. He had a master&#039 ; s degree in international marketing, and he spoke four languages. He sold industrial instrumentation in Europe and in the United States for over forty years. His first wife was an American. She worked at the U.S. Consulate in Milan. She was from Riverside, and they eventually settled with their three children in Orange County. For the first time, they had a yard! You know. Growing up in Milan, apartment, maybe you have a balcony with some pots. But the garden that he had, and they had chickens and the kids loved it. He learned that he loved growing things. Nino and I met and married in Michigan, where I am from. I was teaching and he was working there selling to the auto industry. He was transferred again in 1988 and we moved to Orange County. So, how did a schoolteacher from western Michigan and an Italian end up with a six-acre farm in north San Diego County? Well, I have to say at this point that it was driven by Nino, who was looking for a place to enjoy his retirement. I was happy teaching in Huntington Beach, but his territory stretched from San Diego to L.A. and beyond and he was on the road a lot. On Friday, one Friday, in 1991, he was returning from San Diego and he stopped off at a--a nursery in North Vista and, um, when he arrived home he said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ve found where we&#039 ; re going to retire.&quot ; So, the next day we started looking, and we found two acres on a subdivided avocado grove off of Gopher Canyon Road. And the journey began! At first, we commuted to the property on the weekends, and it--it was--it was perfect. It was hectic, but it was perfect. The Fuerte avocados there were in decline, and they were alive but failing, because after the introduction of the Hass variety, the--the cultivar, um, Fuerte fell out of favor. So, the 45-acre grove was subdivided into two-to-four-acre plots and put up for sale. So, what do you do with aging avocado trees? You stop watering them because avocados need 40 inches of rain a year. So, it didn&#039 ; t take long. When the adjacent four acres became available, we were able to buy them as well and that included a grove of already-producing persimmons--Hachiyas and Fuyus. So, that gave us a place to start. We moved to the farm in 1994, fixed up a small house on the property, and over the next year we removed all of the metal irrigation pipes (chuckles) and those dead avocado trees. By the way, avocado wood makes great firewood. We were selling it and giving it away for years! Okay, enough background. What does it take to have a small farm? Well, besides resources like land and equipment and irrigation, you need physical energy and strength (chuckles) and a lot of knowledge based on research. And that would include--before you even get started--the microclimate, the soil, the water sources. And then you have to choose, based on that information, what to grow! Well, Nino wanted fruit trees. Okay. As I was saying, he was the driver of all of this (chuckles), so I was just along for the ride. But, he, in particular, wanted cherimoyas, and that was because he had the year before, out of curiosity, bought a cherimoya fruit at a market and he loved it. He saved the seeds, and he planted them in pots. In fact, there was a cherimoya tree on the property, right by the front door! After much research--this was in 1993--early days of the internet, okay? But, we learned that cherimoyas would do really well in our area. Not from seed, however. (indicates &quot ; no&quot ; with her left pointer finger, and clears her throat.) It--it took a big commitment, that&#039 ; s for sure, because choosing to grow trees requires a longer-term outlook. Depending on how much time and money you have, you have to, um, invest, because the trees will take three to five years, or more, to produce, while row crops, like flowers or microgreens, for example, they can be seasonal. It was a big decision. It was a certain amount of trial and error--grafting, pollinating, planting. But, as it&#039 ; s important to small farms in choosing a unique or niche product, not supplied (again indicated &quot ; no&quot ; with her finger) by larger farmers, it worked out! Now, at the time, that really wasn&#039 ; t our focus, but it proved to be a huge advantage. A little bit about cherimoyas. They&#039 ; re a subtropical fruit, native to the mountain valleys of Peru and Ecuador. It can be large, often heart-shaped. (Reaches for a fruit and holds it up for the camera while the camera pans in.) I can show you one. (Lays it back down, and begins to rub her hands together). They have overlapping scales--that&#039 ; s what people call them, anyway. But, inside, it is white, and it has a custardy texture and it tastes like pineapple, banana, papaya, and in some varieties, even a pear! (Holds up a book with header reading &quot ; Gallery of Subtropical Plants&quot ; and contains a photo of the fruit and a cherimoya tree as well as textual information. Camera pans in on the page with the fruit image.) Southern California provides the--the best conditions in the United States for growing cherimoyas. The largest plantings are near Santa Barbara where most of that fruit is exported to Asia. The season is late winter to spring, so depending on the variety, that&#039 ; s from November, December to March and April. The tricky thing (rubs her hands together) about growing cherimoyas is the pollination. Each blossom is both male and female, but bees are too big to enter this fleshy flower. To get full-sized fruit, hand pollination with a paintbrush is the key. It&#039 ; s labor intensive in June, July, and August. It&#039 ; s not difficult, but it is time consuming. Now, (looks to her left, towards the fruit) part of farming has to be knowing the microclimate and (clears her throat) in general, in San Diego, people know the difference between the--the cool coastal and the warmer inland valleys. But (rubs hands) even with careful research on the--on the property, it&#039 ; s--it can throw you some--some confusing conditions, because, uh, there are different temperatures. You can have diff--places with sun, and soil, and wind. On our property, which dropped off to a--a canyon, the temperature dropped dramatically, including frost, and the prevailing westerly winds were an issue. We were able to grow for ourselves in that canyon, apples, cherries, pears, fruits that needed a lot of chill time. But we weren&#039 ; t selling those. (clears her throat, plane can be heard in the background) We also ended up, though, having to plant a wind break to protect the cherimoyas (chuckles) that we had planted. Who knew! But, we chose wisely because we chose Satsuma tangerines, which proved to be--be-- very popular, so it all worked out. (clears her throat again) Some research was more scientific because soil and water can be tested for pH and salinity and minerals, and there are a lot of excellent resources out--out there that--that I need to, uh, recommend, because um,--I&#039 ; m going to read this just to make sure I get it correct--um, the University of California Cooperative Extension has the names of labs. Okay, you have to pay for them. But, especially soil analysis is--is important, because you need to understand the plants ability to absorb nutrients. You can even take them leaves from your plants, and they will analyze whether they are taking up nutrients as needed. I also want to recommend specific groups like--we had the California Rare Fruit Growers. There&#039 ; s a--a branch in North County and also one at Balboa Park. There&#039 ; s the California Cherimoya Association and other fruits have their Associations as well. And, of course, the United States Department of Agriculture. And I can&#039 ; t forget the Master Gardener Association, because they have workshops and blogs and so much information. And in the past 20 to 30 years, it&#039 ; s been easy to find information, easier, because of the internet. And whether you&#039 ; re planting, or pruning, or harvesting, a YouTube video can teach you (starts to chuckle) just about anything you want! And they&#039 ; re fun! So, research is easier. But I still have to say that contact with people is key. The University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department--that&#039 ; s called the U.C.A.N.R.--is including--includes the County of San Diego Cooperative Extension and the Farm and Home Advisor--that&#039 ; s by county. And--and another part of the U.C.A.N.R. is the South Coast Research and Extension Center in Irvine, and (clears throat) it&#039 ; s a living laboratory for U.C. scientists where they are conducting agricultural research. It&#039 ; s a 200-acre facility, where they have outdoor events and demonstrations and classrooms. They have a glasshouse there. And they also have a huge cherimoya collection of trees that is just beautiful. And, of course, that was our connection to that place, besides the great people who are there. So, relationships and talking about them, kind of brings me to the selling part of all of this, because when we had enough fruit to sell, the Vista Farmer&#039 ; s Market was a consideration. But Nino decided to try small, family-owned, independent grocers first. Not chains (indicates &quot ; no&quot ; with her left finger). They won&#039 ; t even talk to you. Even Sprouts won&#039 ; t buy from individual farmers. So, let&#039 ; s find places where they will buy locally. Now, farmer&#039 ; s markets do have advantages--meeting other farmers, learning about crops, meeting the public. But, they require labor time away from the farm and picking for unknown demand in advance. And that, with fruit on trees, is problematic. So as an experienced (chuckles) salesman, Nino knew to find out what the customer wanted, and he harvested by their needs! He would check their stock, or they would call. Sometimes he would deliver two to three times a week, especially during times like the Lunar New Year, things like that. That special attention is what builds relationships and loyalty. He also learned to sell by (chuckles) uniform size. They didn&#039 ; t want all different sizes of fruit. They wanted uniform. But then he had to be creative, too. And he was always making sure that he was interacting with the produce people at the store, whether they&#039 ; re the guys putting out the fruit or the managers, because that kind of connection does it all. So, (sighs) pre-pandemic, Nino was even doing free tastings at Frazier Farms which was one of his main sources, uh, sales--of sales. He--he would cut up (gestures cutting with a knife) cherimoyas and take them there and they weren&#039 ; t well known but once people tried them, they were going to buy. Now, at one point, customers would see Nino delivering and they would stop him in the parking lot, asking to buy fruit themselves. He declined right away, partly because of the amount that they wanted. He realized that they were going to be reselling and competing with his customer right there in the store. So, it would be also disruptive to have these people coming to the property and wanting to buy, so, no. But it did get Nino thinking about sharing the experience of the farm. MeetUp groups were starting at that time. They were the thing, like signing up online for different activities. So, we started having U-Picks. We set up two timeslots on Saturday mornings, where people could sign up online, and they would come and Nino would give a presentation on the farm and the different fruits, and I provided samples of fruit and preserves and--and cherimoya ice cream and recipes. Oh, they loved that! So, it was a success. Families came with their kids, mostly from San Diego proper, you know. They were city people. But they were enjoying an outing in the country, and they enjoyed the property. They loved picking the fruit. So, these are people who wanted their kids to know where fruit comes from! Wow! (laughs) And the kids especially liked picking the tangerines. We made a lot of friends over the ten years that we did that, and we got to watch those kids grow up. They--they also liked feeding my chickens. Now, some customers--I put that in quotes (gestures making quotation marks with her hands) &#039 ; cuz yes they were customers but they became friends and they would volunteer to come and help during the summer with the hand pollination and the--of the cherimoyas and so we--we had some--some really good connections that way. We even found a couple of paid workers from that group. Now, over the years, we had a lot of visitors to the farm. Um, usually by word of mouth or connections to the Farm Bureau, and that would include restaurant owners, especially Asian and South American, produce managers from independent grocers. I think of Barons Market, especially, because we had one produce manager from one store come and pretty soon all of the stores were buying from us. We even had wholesale produce managers (rubs hands together), um, specialty produce in the San Diego. They--they sell to the public, but they would come and--and visit and see the farm. And we also had students come to visit. They were from Cal Poly Pomona and there&#039 ; s a College of Agriculture Plant Sciences there, and they were taking a class. I--I remember Dr. Greg Partida, who retired in 2010, but he had a class on subtropical fruit production and he would bring his students on field trips to the farm. So, that socialization is so important because farming, even on a small farm, can be really isolating. There&#039 ; s so much to do, day-to-day. People, since the pandemic, working from home, have found out how strange that is, really, that instead of going to the office every day, they&#039 ; re--they&#039 ; re at home. And--and that&#039 ; s kind of like what it&#039 ; s--what it is to--to be a small farmer, too. I wanted to talk a little bit about, um, record keeping, because it&#039 ; s so impart--important in farming and with the advent of the internet and--and computers, it&#039 ; s changed a lot. But, it&#039 ; s still a--a beneficial skill set, whether you&#039 ; re talking about taxes, or income, or expenses, or irrigation, equipment, payroll, any of that. But, um, another use for--for keeping track of--of information is monitoring the production of the--the crops, whether it&#039 ; s by varieties, where they&#039 ; re growing on the property, the quality from year to year. And an example of this is really in--in Nino&#039 ; s participation in the--the Cooperative Extension&#039 ; s Blueberry Test Plot Program, which was twenty years ago. Now, traditionally blueberries were a cold weather plant that would go dormant every year. In California, the plants bloom year-round, and they wear themselves out. So, Nino, once again, wanted to plant things that no one else plants and there was a lot of research going on as to how to extend the blueberry&#039 ; s range. Through the Farm and Home Advisor Ramiro Lobo, Nino was given four plants each of nine different varieties of southern blueberries. The soil pH that we had was way too alkaline and it had to be augmented. Temperature had to be monitored. Pests considered. The Farm Bureau was very supportive throughout all of this. They even ended up building us a netted structure to keep the birds off. But, Nino was instrumental in monitoring and recording the blossoms, the fruit, the production for each plant. They called him Mr. Spreadsheet (both she and Wheeler chuckle). Well, Excel to the rescue, you know? Because, in--and--I--I have a--a photo of him here, if you&#039 ; d like to see, where he is, um, (shows a photo of Nino, camera pans in) taking the blossoms off of the blueberry plants. Now, why would he be doing that? You know? For two years, he did that, so that the young plants could use their energy to grow. And then he would take the berries from each variety and weigh them and--and count them, and that&#039 ; s how they decided which varieties would be the most productive in southern California. Now, there were other farmers doing that too, but in 2002, California produced two million pounds of blueberries. Okay. Twenty years later, 53.4 million pounds of blueberries, sixth in the United States. This boom is due to technological growing skills and adventurous producers, and he was part of all of that. My part with the blueberries was, (clears her throat) when I retired from teaching, then I was in charge of the blueberries. Okay. But think of it this way. Four dollars for six ounces (gestures as if telling a secret)--I was selling them at school. So, that translates to twelve dollars a pound. Now, what ev--other fruit is going to sell for twelve dollars a pound! In the past ten years, in the United States, the output of blueberries has tripled. And that&#039 ; s in the U.S. alone. And the main states are Washington, Georgia, and my home state, Michigan. So, why is that increased so much. Because of the research talking about antioxidants. So, in ten years, they have become really huge crop. Okay, today, what country do you think grows the most blueberries? I&#039 ; ll tell you. Peru! Is that somethin&#039 ; or what? Which, for me, is kind of a full circle because that&#039 ; s where cherimoyas are from. Okay. So, I have just a little bit more, because I sold the farm after Nino&#039 ; s death. I had three people interested. One couple wanted it as an investment, (said in nasal utterance) ehh. Another couple ended up buying a larger property in Valley Center. But, the--the family that I--I sold to love it there, and they&#039 ; re trying to keep it going. They have no clue how much work it takes, especially with their three kids and two dogs, but hey. That&#039 ; s--that&#039 ; s--that&#039 ; s their issue. They&#039 ; re keeping it going, and I--I--I wish them all the best. Now, (clears her throat) when it--when it comes to innovation in farming, I guess that--that--that besides his interaction with people, innovation was something that--that Nino was very attracted to, because he was always trying new irrigation. We had installed a--a well, which saved on water. But electricity was expensive. So, we invested in solar panels. And in the year 2000, we were one of the fifty original installations of net metering in the--in the county. So, it was always somethin&#039 ; , you know. We had a cell tower on the property. Very good income. Verizon had been pursuing us for several years for that. And finally we were able to get them to choose a location and (chuckles) give us a fake tree design that was acceptable that we couldn&#039 ; t see from the house. So, always moving forward with something, that is the exciting part of changes and I mentioned these as evidence because technological innovation in all our lives, including farming, is key. What&#039 ; s next? (puts up her hands, palms facing camera) I don&#039 ; t know. Robots? (laughs) I don&#039 ; t know! But--but Nino was able to embrace new ideas and change. And new farmers are going to have to do the same. Wheeler: Oh. Thank you so much. It&#039 ; s so exciting because we are all changing no matter what we--what we do. The--I was really curious about--say more about how innovative--what--what made him feel that way, think that way. Curiosity coming from another country and embracing so many differences, but being innovative with that help, maybe in spite of it sometimes. Cupaiuolo: Well, he had many different abilities. I had mentioned that he spoke four languages. His father was an artist, and Nino was very artistic. So, he had a very creative part of his personality, besides being just so outgoing. And, um, he loved to--to try new things. Wheeler: And that is wonderful! The other thing that I think depicts all of this was the number of articles written about him and that he helped promote, and to let the world know how he was, um, being innovative― Cupaiuolo: Uh-huh. Wheeler: ―in a very creative way. And that personality came across, and people accepted that. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: And there was so much camaraderie in it. Did you ever do tours of your farm? Cupaiuolo: Uh, yes, there were farm tours that were set up. And people, through the Farm Bureau, would come from different parts of the country, even. They would come on a bus! (shrugs) Because small farms, for a long time really, have been a focus of--of many different states. We even had the president of the University of California come on one of the--the tours, and wrote us a--a very nice thank you letter afterward, because they were interested in how much they should be focusing on the part of the University of California that was devoted to agriculture and farming. Wheeler: That&#039 ; s great. Would--sometimes when we&#039 ; re driving in the freeway and it&#039 ; s pretty much a parking lot for a couple of hours of the day, and we get this vision of wouldn&#039 ; t it be nice to be on a little farm or little acreage somewhere, do you have any advice to people who have that dream. Cupaiuolo: (purses her lips and blows out air, then clears her throat) Well, I think that it takes more than people think in terms of resources and, um, research (chuckles), and it--it&#039 ; s not something to jump into lightly. It is possible to buy a farm that&#039 ; s already operating, and that--that&#039 ; s what the young family did from--from me, last year. So-- Wheeler: And the cost of real estate has made that less available to a lot of people, too. Cupaiuolo: Well, that is--that--that&#039 ; s (nodding) Wheeler: So much going on in this farming industry. That&#039 ; s why it&#039 ; s very important to have the history of how it has been, in order to build on to the future. Do you happen to have a photo of Nino? Cupaiuolo: I do! (reaches to her right, and pulls out a photo). What is--what&#039 ; s happening to that. There it is! Wheeler: Oh, and he has some of the cherimoyas. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: That one is large! How large do they get? Cupaiuolo: Well, that was a three pounder. Wheeler: Mmm--wow. Cupaiuolo: Yeah, that--that would be fifteen dollars right there. Wheeler: Yes. Cupaiuolo: And you know what? People would buy them! Wheeler: It&#039 ; s amazing the costs of them. But now that I understand more about the--the detail and the--the labor intensiveness of it, um-- Cupaiuolo: Course, if that--that wouldn&#039 ; t all be fruit-less, if people didn&#039 ; t love the fruit. So-- Wheeler: Right. Exactly. Um-- Cupaiuolo: But, hey, look at what we pay for blueberries per month. Wheeler: Do you know of any other orchards that are doing that right now? Or is it a popular-- Cupaiuolo: For the cherimoya? Wheeler: Yes. Cupaiuolo: Not that I know of. I mean, there are people on the side. Competition. There was a guy in Oceanside who had purchased a cherimoya orchard and he had small, misshapen fruit. And he offered to sell it to Frazier Farms for three dollars a pound rather than the five dollars a pound that we were selling fruit. So the produce manager from Frader--Frazier Farms came to Nino and said, &quot ; I have this guy that&#039 ; s going to sell me fruit at three dollars a pound, so that&#039 ; s all I&#039 ; m going to pay you.&quot ; And Nino said, &quot ; eh-eh.&quot ; (gestures with her finger as if saying no). So, he was then out there exploring new avenues. But, it didn&#039 ; t take long before that fruit just sat in the store and wouldn&#039 ; t sell. No matter what the price was. Because people had expectations of what they had seen before. Wheeler: Yes, wow. Very interesting. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: Thank you so much for sharing this part of para-agriculture, which is a pretty new phrase to a--phase for a lot of us. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. It was new to me. Wheeler: And the up--the fact that we are the largest county in the United States with that kind of urban and city mixture makes it even more diversified and more interesting to live here. It&#039 ; s not wonder to me that the price of land has gone up as much as it has. It&#039 ; s very desirable. The--We are, however, in my humble opinion, at a cusp of which direction are we going in the future. And how will agriculture look in twenty years from now. But, you&#039 ; ve given us a wonderful foundation for how it came this far, what kind of innovation it took, what kind of knowledge. It&#039 ; s not for the weak--physically, mentally, or otherwise. And I&#039 ; m so appreciative of what you&#039 ; ve done. Thank you so much. Cupaiuolo: Oh, it&#039 ; s been my pleasure. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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Interview February 23, 2023 Description An account of the resource The Primavera Orchard was owned and operated by Giovanni and Susan Cupaiuolo from 1991 until Nino’s death in 2020 in Vista, California. It was a six acre peri-urban farm specializing in the growth, preparation, promotion and detailed hand-pollinated fruit from a variety of cherimoya trees. Cherimoya trees are a tropical fruit tree which will only grow in Southern California and are very expensive due to the complicated and dedicated care of the trees and cultivations. The Cupaiuolos later introduced blueberries to the area to provide this northern fruit into the local markets during the northern dormant season. Other fruits and vegetables were grown for personal use. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-24 Subject The topic of the resource Blueberries Cherimoya Orchards -- California -- Vista Tree crops Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-02-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Susan Cupaiuolo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lucy Wheeler Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vista (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Susan Cupaiuolo Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5af2f72446a3d7bf9cdf8db3952005c8.pdf defee5e2470badc29a52a43f13afacbe PDF Text Text SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Lucy Wheeler: Good afternoon. My name is Lucy Wheeler and it’s February the 23rd, 2023. We’re here to interview Susan— Susan Cupaiuolo: Cupaiuolo. Wheeler: Kupaiyalo. Thank you. (Cupaiuolo chuckles) Uh, this is in behalf of the North County Oral History Initiative being put on by Cal State and San Marcos and the Museum of History here in San Marcos. The history of our North County—and just as a preliminary to your story, Susan—the county of San Diego is a very unique situation in that it’s the ninth largest city in the United States, but it’s in the community of the county. The fourth largest industry is agriculture, and most of that, or 70% of that, is soon to be in the North County. Part of that agricultural industry makes it a–well, it’s the largest area in the United States with the most farms. Your story shows one of the areas of that agriculture which is kind of overlooked, and that is, in 2017 the county of San Diego estimated and actually counted that there were 5,000 small parafarmers, which is ten acres or less, and how they operate. And your story can bring us a wealth of information to that. So, with that beginning, tell us a little bit about yourself, your husband, where you were born, and what your interest in agriculture was. Cupaiuolo: (nods) I’d be glad to give some background on this. My husband was Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo. He died in October 2020 at the height of the pandemic. Uh, he was 86 years old. He had been in declining health physically and cognitively, and I just wish that he were here to tell this adventure, but I’ll do my best to–to share it. Um, I’m going to call him “Nino.” He grew up in Milan, Italy during World War II. He had one brother. His father was from Naples and his mother from Sicily. Farming was not in his background, and, um, I’m setting that up as making sure we don’t have these assumptions about Italians who grew up on farms and have these big families, okay? Because that’s–that’s not the–the way it was for him. He had a master’s degree in international marketing, and he spoke four languages. He sold industrial instrumentation in Europe and in the United States for over forty years. His first wife was an American. She worked at the U.S. Consulate in Milan. She was from Riverside, and they eventually settled with their three children in Orange County. For the first time, they had a yard! You know. Growing up in Milan, apartment, maybe you have a balcony with some pots. But the garden that he had, and they had chickens and the kids loved it. He learned that he loved growing things. Nino and I met and married in Michigan, where I am from. I was teaching and he was working there selling to the auto industry. He was transferred again in 1988 and we moved to Orange County. So, how did a schoolteacher from western Michigan and an Italian end up with a sixacre farm in north San Diego County? Well, I have to say at this point that it was driven by Nino, who was looking for a place to enjoy his retirement. I was happy teaching in Huntington Beach, but his territory stretched from San Diego to L.A. and beyond and he was on the road a lot. On Friday, one Friday, in 1991, he was returning from San Diego and he stopped off at a–a nursery in North Vista and, um, when he arrived home he said, “I’ve found where we’re going to retire.” So, the next day we started looking, and we found two acres on a subdivided avocado grove off of Gopher Canyon Road. And the journey began! Transcribed by Melissa Martin 1 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 At first, we commuted to the property on the weekends, and it–it was–it was perfect. It was hectic, but it was perfect. The Fuerte avocados there were in decline, and they were alive but failing, because after the introduction of the Hass variety, the–the cultivar, um, Fuerte fell out of favor. So, the 45-acre grove was subdivided into two-to-four-acre plots and put up for sale. So, what do you do with aging avocado trees? You stop watering them because avocados need 40 inches of rain a year. So, it didn’t take long. When the adjacent four acres became available, we were able to buy them as well and that included a grove of already-producing persimmons— Hachiyas and Fuyus. So, that gave us a place to start. We moved to the farm in 1994, fixed up a small house on the property, and over the next year we removed all of the metal irrigation pipes (chuckles) and those dead avocado trees. By the way, avocado wood makes great firewood. We were selling it and giving it away for years! Okay, enough background. What does it take to have a small farm? Well, besides resources like land and equipment and irrigation, you need physical energy and strength (chuckles) and a lot of knowledge based on research. And that would include—before you even get started—the microclimate, the soil, the water sources. And then you have to choose, based on that information, what to grow! Well, Nino wanted fruit trees. Okay. As I was saying, he was the driver of all of this (chuckles), so I was just along for the ride. But, he, in particular, wanted cherimoyas, and that was because he had the year before, out of curiosity, bought a cherimoya fruit at a market and he loved it. He saved the seeds, and he planted them in pots. In fact, there was a cherimoya tree on the property, right by the front door! After much research—this was in 1993—early days of the internet, okay? But, we learned that cherimoyas would do really well in our area. Not from seed, however. (indicates “no” with her left pointer finger, and clears her throat.) It–it took a big commitment, that’s for sure, because choosing to grow trees requires a longer-term outlook. Depending on how much time and money you have, you have to, um, invest, because the trees will take three to five years, or more, to produce, while row crops, like flowers or microgreens, for example, they can be seasonal. It was a big decision. It was a certain amount of trial and error—grafting, pollinating, planting. But, as it’s important to small farms in choosing a unique or niche product, not supplied (again indicated “no” with her finger) by larger farmers, it worked out! Now, at the time, that really wasn’t our focus, but it proved to be a huge advantage. A little bit about cherimoyas. They’re a subtropical fruit, native to the mountain valleys of Peru and Ecuador. It can be large, often heart-shaped. (Reaches for a fruit and holds it up for the camera while the camera pans in.) I can show you one. (Lays it back down, and begins to rub her hands together). They have overlapping scales—that’s what people call them, anyway. But, inside, it is white, and it has a custardy texture and it tastes like pineapple, banana, papaya, and in some varieties, even a pear! (Holds up a book with header reading “Gallery of Subtropical Plants” and contains a photo of the fruit and a cherimoya tree as well as textual information. Camera pans in on the page with the fruit image.) Southern California provides the–the best conditions in the United States for growing cherimoyas. The largest plantings are near Santa Barbara where most of that fruit is exported to Asia. The season is late winter to spring, so depending on the variety, that’s from November, December to March and April. The tricky thing Transcribed by Melissa Martin 2 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 (rubs her hands together) about growing cherimoyas is the pollination. Each blossom is both male and female, but bees are too big to enter this fleshy flower. To get full-sized fruit, hand pollination with a paintbrush is the key. It’s labor intensive in June, July, and August. It’s not difficult, but it is time consuming. Now, (looks to her left, towards the fruit) part of farming has to be knowing the microclimate and (clears her throat) in general, in San Diego, people know the difference between the–the cool coastal and the warmer inland valleys. But (rubs hands) even with careful research on the–on the property, it’s–it can throw you some–some confusing conditions, because, uh, there are different temperatures. You can have diff–places with sun, and soil, and wind. On our property, which dropped off to a–a canyon, the temperature dropped dramatically, including frost, and the prevailing westerly winds were an issue. We were able to grow for ourselves in that canyon, apples, cherries, pears, fruits that needed a lot of chill time. But we weren’t selling those. (clears her throat, plane can be heard in the background) We also ended up, though, having to plant a wind break to protect the cherimoyas (chuckles) that we had planted. Who knew! But, we chose wisely because we chose Satsuma tangerines, which proved to be–be– very popular, so it all worked out. (clears her throat again) Some research was more scientific because soil and water can be tested for pH and salinity and minerals, and there are a lot of excellent resources out–out there that–that I need to, uh, recommend, because um,—I’m going to read this just to make sure I get it correct—um, the University of California Cooperative Extension has the names of labs. Okay, you have to pay for them. But, especially soil analysis is–is important, because you need to understand the plants ability to absorb nutrients. You can even take them leaves from your plants, and they will analyze whether they are taking up nutrients as needed. I also want to recommend specific groups like—we had the California Rare Fruit Growers. There’s a–a branch in North County and also one at Balboa Park. There’s the California Cherimoya Association and other fruits have their Associations as well. And, of course, the United States Department of Agriculture. And I can’t forget the Master Gardener Association, because they have workshops and blogs and so much information. And in the past 20 to 30 years, it’s been easy to find information, easier, because of the internet. And whether you’re planting, or pruning, or harvesting, a YouTube video can teach you (starts to chuckle) just about anything you want! And they’re fun! So, research is easier. But I still have to say that contact with people is key. The University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department—that’s called the U.C.A.N.R.—is including–includes the County of San Diego Cooperative Extension and the Farm and Home Advisor—that’s by county. And–and another part of the U.C.A.N.R. is the South Coast Research and Extension Center in Irvine, and (clears throat) it’s a living laboratory for U.C. scientists where they are conducting agricultural research. It’s a 200-acre facility, where they have outdoor events and demonstrations and classrooms. They have a glasshouse there. And they also have a huge cherimoya collection of trees that is just beautiful. And, of course, that was our connection to that place, besides the great people who are there. So, relationships and talking about them, kind of brings me to the selling part of all of this, because when we had enough fruit to sell, the Vista Farmer’s Market was a consideration. But Transcribed by Melissa Martin 3 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Nino decided to try small, family-owned, independent grocers first. Not chains (indicates “no” with her left finger). They won’t even talk to you. Even Sprouts won’t buy from individual farmers. So, let’s find places where they will buy locally. Now, farmer’s markets do have advantages—meeting other farmers, learning about crops, meeting the public. But, they require labor time away from the farm and picking for unknown demand in advance. And that, with fruit on trees, is problematic. So as an experienced (chuckles) salesman, Nino knew to find out what the customer wanted, and he harvested by their needs! He would check their stock, or they would call. Sometimes he would deliver two to three times a week, especially during times like the Lunar New Year, things like that. That special attention is what builds relationships and loyalty. He also learned to sell by (chuckles) uniform size. They didn’t want all different sizes of fruit. They wanted uniform. But then he had to be creative, too. And he was always making sure that he was interacting with the produce people at the store, whether they’re the guys putting out the fruit or the managers, because that kind of connection does it all. So, (sighs) pre-pandemic, Nino was even doing free tastings at Frazier Farms which was one of his main sources, uh, sales–of sales. He–he would cut up (gestures cutting with a knife) cherimoyas and take them there and they weren’t well known but once people tried them, they were going to buy. Now, at one point, customers would see Nino delivering and they would stop him in the parking lot, asking to buy fruit themselves. He declined right away, partly because of the amount that they wanted. He realized that they were going to be reselling and competing with his customer right there in the store. So, it would be also disruptive to have these people coming to the property and wanting to buy, so, no. But it did get Nino thinking about sharing the experience of the farm. MeetUp groups were starting at that time. They were the thing, like signing up online for different activities. So, we started having U-Picks. We set up two timeslots on Saturday mornings, where people could sign up online, and they would come and Nino would give a presentation on the farm and the different fruits, and I provided samples of fruit and preserves and–and cherimoya ice cream and recipes. Oh, they loved that! So, it was a success. Families came with their kids, mostly from San Diego proper, you know. They were city people. But they were enjoying an outing in the country, and they enjoyed the property. They loved picking the fruit. So, these are people who wanted their kids to know where fruit comes from! Wow! (laughs) And the kids especially liked picking the tangerines. We made a lot of friends over the ten years that we did that, and we got to watch those kids grow up. They–they also liked feeding my chickens. Now, some customers—I put that in quotes (gestures making quotation marks with her hands) ‘cuz yes they were customers but they became friends and they would volunteer to come and help during the summer with the hand pollination and the–of the cherimoyas and so we–we had some–some really good connections that way. We even found a couple of paid workers from that group. Now, over the years, we had a lot of visitors to the farm. Um, usually by word of mouth or connections to the Farm Bureau, and that would include restaurant owners, especially Asian and South American, produce managers from independent grocers. I think of Barons Market, especially, because we had one produce manager from one store come and pretty soon all of the Transcribed by Melissa Martin 4 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 stores were buying from us. We even had wholesale produce managers (rubs hands together), um, specialty produce in the San Diego. They–they sell to the public, but they would come and– and visit and see the farm. And we also had students come to visit. They were from Cal Poly Pomona and there’s a College of Agriculture Plant Sciences there, and they were taking a class. I–I remember Dr. Greg Partida, who retired in 2010, but he had a class on subtropical fruit production and he would bring his students on field trips to the farm. So, that socialization is so important because farming, even on a small farm, can be really isolating. There’s so much to do, day-to-day. People, since the pandemic, working from home, have found out how strange that is, really, that instead of going to the office every day, they’re– they’re at home. And–and that’s kind of like what it’s–what it is to–to be a small farmer, too. I wanted to talk a little bit about, um, record keeping, because it’s so impart–important in farming and with the advent of the internet and–and computers, it’s changed a lot. But, it’s still a–a beneficial skill set, whether you’re talking about taxes, or income, or expenses, or irrigation, equipment, payroll, any of that. But, um, another use for–for keeping track of–of information is monitoring the production of the–the crops, whether it’s by varieties, where they’re growing on the property, the quality from year to year. And an example of this is really in–in Nino’s participation in the–the Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program, which was twenty years ago. Now, traditionally blueberries were a cold weather plant that would go dormant every year. In California, the plants bloom year-round, and they wear themselves out. So, Nino, once again, wanted to plant things that no one else plants and there was a lot of research going on as to how to extend the blueberry’s range. Through the Farm and Home Advisor Ramiro Lobo, Nino was given four plants each of nine different varieties of southern blueberries. The soil pH that we had was way too alkaline and it had to be augmented. Temperature had to be monitored. Pests considered. The Farm Bureau was very supportive throughout all of this. They even ended up building us a netted structure to keep the birds off. But, Nino was instrumental in monitoring and recording the blossoms, the fruit, the production for each plant. They called him Mr. Spreadsheet (both she and Wheeler chuckle). Well, Excel to the rescue, you know? Because, in–and—I–I have a–a photo of him here, if you’d like to see, where he is, um, (shows a photo of Nino, camera pans in) taking the blossoms off of the blueberry plants. Now, why would he be doing that? You know? For two years, he did that, so that the young plants could use their energy to grow. And then he would take the berries from each variety and weigh them and–and count them, and that’s how they decided which varieties would be the most productive in southern California. Now, there were other farmers doing that too, but in 2002, California produced two million pounds of blueberries. Okay. Twenty years later, 53.4 million pounds of blueberries, sixth in the United States. This boom is due to technological growing skills and adventurous producers, and he was part of all of that. My part with the blueberries was, (clears her throat) when I retired from teaching, then I was in charge of the blueberries. Okay. But think of it this way. Four dollars for six ounces (gestures as if telling a secret)—I was selling them at school. So, that translates to twelve dollars a pound. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 5 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Now, what ev–other fruit is going to sell for twelve dollars a pound! In the past ten years, in the United States, the output of blueberries has tripled. And that’s in the U.S. alone. And the main states are Washington, Georgia, and my home state, Michigan. So, why is that increased so much. Because of the research talking about antioxidants. So, in ten years, they have become really huge crop. Okay, today, what country do you think grows the most blueberries? I’ll tell you. Peru! Is that somethin’ or what? Which, for me, is kind of a full circle because that’s where cherimoyas are from. Okay. So, I have just a little bit more, because I sold the farm after Nino’s death. I had three people interested. One couple wanted it as an investment, (said in nasal utterance) ehh. Another couple ended up buying a larger property in Valley Center. But, the–the family that I–I sold to love it there, and they’re trying to keep it going. They have no clue how much work it takes, especially with their three kids and two dogs, but hey. That’s–that’s–that’s their issue. They’re keeping it going, and I–I–I wish them all the best. Now, (clears her throat) when it–when it comes to innovation in farming, I guess that–that–that besides his interaction with people, innovation was something that–that Nino was very attracted to, because he was always trying new irrigation. We had installed a–a well, which saved on water. But electricity was expensive. So, we invested in solar panels. And in the year 2000, we were one of the fifty original installations of net metering in the–in the county. So, it was always somethin’, you know. We had a cell tower on the property. Very good income. Verizon had been pursuing us for several years for that. And finally we were able to get them to choose a location and (chuckles) give us a fake tree design that was acceptable that we couldn’t see from the house. So, always moving forward with something, that is the exciting part of changes and I mentioned these as evidence because technological innovation in all our lives, including farming, is key. What’s next? (puts up her hands, palms facing camera) I don’t know. Robots? (laughs) I don’t know! But–but Nino was able to embrace new ideas and change. And new farmers are going to have to do the same. Wheeler: Oh. Thank you so much. It’s so exciting because we are all changing no matter what we–what we do. The—I was really curious about—say more about how innovative—what–what made him feel that way, think that way. Curiosity coming from another country and embracing so many differences, but being innovative with that help, maybe in spite of it sometimes. Cupaiuolo: Well, he had many different abilities. I had mentioned that he spoke four languages. His father was an artist, and Nino was very artistic. So, he had a very creative part of his personality, besides being just so outgoing. And, um, he loved to–to try new things. Wheeler: And that is wonderful! The other thing that I think depicts all of this was the number of articles written about him and that he helped promote, and to let the world know how he was, um, being innovative― Transcribed by Melissa Martin 6 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Cupaiuolo: Uh-huh. Wheeler: ―in a very creative way. And that personality came across, and people accepted that. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: And there was so much camaraderie in it. Did you ever do tours of your farm? Cupaiuolo: Uh, yes, there were farm tours that were set up. And people, through the Farm Bureau, would come from different parts of the country, even. They would come on a bus! (shrugs) Because small farms, for a long time really, have been a focus of–of many different states. We even had the president of the University of California come on one of the–the tours, and wrote us a–a very nice thank you letter afterward, because they were interested in how much they should be focusing on the part of the University of California that was devoted to agriculture and farming. Wheeler: That’s great. Would—sometimes when we’re driving in the freeway and it’s pretty much a parking lot for a couple of hours of the day, and we get this vision of wouldn’t it be nice to be on a little farm or little acreage somewhere, do you have any advice to people who have that dream. Cupaiuolo: (purses her lips and blows out air, then clears her throat) Well, I think that it takes more than people think in terms of resources and, um, research (chuckles), and it–it’s not something to jump into lightly. It is possible to buy a farm that’s already operating, and that– that’s what the young family did from–from me, last year. So— Wheeler: And the cost of real estate has made that less available to a lot of people, too. Cupaiuolo: Well, that is–that–that’s (nodding) Wheeler: So much going on in this farming industry. That’s why it’s very important to have the history of how it has been, in order to build on to the future. Do you happen to have a photo of Nino? Cupaiuolo: I do! (reaches to her right, and pulls out a photo). What is–what’s happening to that. There it is! Wheeler: Oh, and he has some of the cherimoyas. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: That one is large! How large do they get? Cupaiuolo: Well, that was a three pounder. Wheeler: Mmm–wow. Cupaiuolo: Yeah, that–that would be fifteen dollars right there. Wheeler: Yes. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 7 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Cupaiuolo: And you know what? People would buy them! Wheeler: It’s amazing the costs of them. But now that I understand more about the–the detail and the–the labor intensiveness of it, um— Cupaiuolo: Course, if that–that wouldn’t all be fruit-less, if people didn’t love the fruit. So— Wheeler: Right. Exactly. Um— Cupaiuolo: But, hey, look at what we pay for blueberries per month. Wheeler: Do you know of any other orchards that are doing that right now? Or is it a popular— Cupaiuolo: For the cherimoya? Wheeler: Yes. Cupaiuolo: Not that I know of. I mean, there are people on the side. Competition. There was a guy in Oceanside who had purchased a cherimoya orchard and he had small, misshapen fruit. And he offered to sell it to Frazier Farms for three dollars a pound rather than the five dollars a pound that we were selling fruit. So the produce manager from Frader–Frazier Farms came to Nino and said, “I have this guy that’s going to sell me fruit at three dollars a pound, so that’s all I’m going to pay you.” And Nino said, “eh-eh.” (gestures with her finger as if saying no). So, he was then out there exploring new avenues. But, it didn’t take long before that fruit just sat in the store and wouldn’t sell. No matter what the price was. Because people had expectations of what they had seen before. Wheeler: Yes, wow. Very interesting. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: Thank you so much for sharing this part of para-agriculture, which is a pretty new phrase to a—phase for a lot of us. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. It was new to me. Wheeler: And the up—the fact that we are the largest county in the United States with that kind of urban and city mixture makes it even more diversified and more interesting to live here. It’s not wonder to me that the price of land has gone up as much as it has. It’s very desirable. The— We are, however, in my humble opinion, at a cusp of which direction are we going in the future. And how will agriculture look in twenty years from now. But, you’ve given us a wonderful foundation for how it came this far, what kind of innovation it took, what kind of knowledge. It’s not for the weak—physically, mentally, or otherwise. And I’m so appreciative of what you’ve done. Thank you so much. Cupaiuolo: Oh, it’s been my pleasure. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 8 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 GLOSSARY Barons Market (pg.5) California Cherimoya Association (pg.3) California Rare Fruit Growers (pg.3) Cherimoya (pg.2) College of Agriculture Plant Science [Cal Poly Pomona] (pg. 5) Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program (pg.5) County of San Diego Cooperative Extension (pg.3) Farm and Home Advisor (pg.3,5) Farm Bureau (pg.5) Frazier Farms (pg.4) Fuerte avocados (pg.2) Fuyu persimmons (pg.2) Hachiya persimmons (pg.2) Hass [avocado] (pg.2) Lobo, Ramiro (pg.5) Lunar New Year (pg.4) Master Gardener Association (pg.3) Museum of History [San Marcos] (pg.1) North County Oral History Initiative (pg.1) Para-agriculture (pg.8) Para-farmers (pg.1) Partida, Dr. Greg (pg.5) Satsuma tangerines (pg.3) South Coast Research and Extension Center (pg.3) United States Department of Agriculture (pg.3) University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department [U.C.A.N.R.] (pg.3) University of California Cooperative Extension (pg.3) Transcribed by Melissa Martin 9 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 U-Picks (pg.5) Valley Center (pg.6) Vista Farmer’s Market (pg.4) Transcribed by Melissa Martin 10 2023-04-04 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cupaiuolo, Susan. Interview transcript. February 23, 2023 Description An account of the resource The Primavera Orchard was owned and operated by Giovanni and Susan Cupaiuolo from 1991 until Nino’s death in 2020 in Vista, California. It was a six acre peri-urban farm specializing in the growth, preparation, promotion and detailed hand-pollinated fruit from a variety of cherimoya trees. Cherimoya trees are a tropical fruit tree which will only grow in Southern California and are very expensive due to the complicated and dedicated care of the trees and cultivations. The Cupaiuolos later introduced blueberries to the area to provide this northern fruit into the local markets during the northern dormant season. Other fruits and vegetables were grown for personal use. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Susan Cupaiuolo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lucy Wheeler Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-02-23 Subject The topic of the resource Blueberries Cherimoya Orchards -- California -- Vista Tree crops Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vista (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. 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The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CupaiuoloSusan_WheelerLucy_2023-02-23_transcript Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/3b6624b33deba86cb7ceb886c3d6cec2.mp4 b5ff77a5c0e25454c0dcaa2b8a431ee0 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral history of Tanis Brown, April 13, 2022 Description An account of the resource Tanis Brown is the President of the San Marcos Historical Society and is involved in many local history projects and educational outreach initiatives. In this interview, Tanis discusses her involvement in the city of San Marcos, CA since the 1970s. Tanis quickly became active in the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce and was among the first group of students to enroll in California State University San Marcos. A few years later, she became an employee of CSUSM, establishing the university’s first housing program and working in human resources. Now as President of the San Marcos Historical Society, Tanis is passionate about sharing San Marcos’ local history with her community and with future generations. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tanis Brown Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-13 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BrownTanis_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-13.mp4 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. SC027: California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f91f84e4831ca55340c80edba7503653.pdf bcf9238ee0a2132eaf9eae864a9bed04 PDF Text Text TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Julia Friedman: Today is Wednesday, April 13th, 2022, at 9:58 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Tanis Brown for the University Library Special Collections Oral History project. Tanis, thank you for being here with me today. Tanis Brown: Oh, thank you. Hang on just a minute. I have to—all right. Friedman: Perfect. I would like to start by discussing your early days in the city of San Marcos, California. Why did you first move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, I first came to San Marcos in 1976 in the kind of summertime. We moved to San Marcos from Escondido. Friedman: And why did you move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, my husband and I had kind of outgrown our house in Escondido and we were looking—he was looking for a little more yard space so he could start to garden. And so, we were looking for a little bit larger house with a little more backyard. Friedman: And what were your first impressions of the city? Brown: Well, when we were looking at houses, I can remember my husband telling the realtor, “I'm not sure we want to live in San Marcos. It's kind of the boonies, isn't it?” And, at that time, San Marcos was certainly not the city it is today. It was a lot more rural. Many, many mobile home parks, about twelve if I remember correctly. Only four to five elementary schools and we had two children in school, so we were looking for, you know, a close-by school and again. So, taking some choices about, well, do we want a little bit bigger yard or do we want to stay in a more developed city, like Escondido? And I'm certainly glad that we opted to move to San Marcos. Friedman: That's great. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: How did you first become involved in the community of San Marcos during your first years in the city? Brown: Okay, so, right after we moved to San Marcos, I enrolled in an early childhood development course at Palomar college. I had been teaching preschool for a number of years and the first night of class, the teacher said the city of San Marcos is looking for a preschool teacher for their Raggedy Anne and Andy Program, which was very popular. It was expanding at that time. And so, I went the next day and put in an application and ended up getting a job with the city right away within the first couple of months. And so, it was a wonderful opportunity to meet people that worked for the city. Our location was where San Marcos City Hall is now, but the building was the red barn that is now located at Walnut Grove Park, that was where all the city recreation programs were hosted out of. That was the main office for our park and recreation program. So, I started working for the Raggedy Anne and Andy Program and was able to meet a lot of people that worked for the city at that time. And that was kind of our first introduction. And because we were such a small community, a couple of the city council people had their children enrolled in our ragged Anne and Andy program. So immediately, I met two or three city council people and through their children. So that's kind of our quick introduction. And I remember thinking, “Oh my gosh, I grew up in San Diego. I never ever knew anybody who's elected to anything.” Transcribed by Julia Friedman 1 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 And here we are, serving, the city council members’ children. So, it was a very close connection to the local government. Friedman: Have you remained within those organizations? Brown: Yes. So, in addition, I only were worked for the city for about a little bit over a year because, we lived overseas shortly after that, but when I came back, I had already been familiar with the park and recreation program. So, I applied to be a commissioner for the park and recreation program, which is an advisory commission for the city of San Marcos, overseeing the parks and recreation. And I was appointed to that and it was a perfect timing because the city was growing quite a bit and we were developing new parks. So, we went from three parks to eight parks to twelve parks, and I ended up sitting on that commission for over twenty years. So, it was really a great time to watch the city not only develop, but also plan for open space, parks, trails, that kept up with the development of additional housing. Friedman: That's wonderful. Oh my goodness. So, you really saw the city expand in just your first few years in San Marcos. And then shortly after, you enrolled in Cal State San Marcos [California State University San Marcos]. You were among the first class to enroll in 1989. Why did you decide to attend the university? Brown: (laughs) Well, my other--one of the other hats that I have worn for many years is the San Marcos Historical Society. And through that organization, I got to be involved with the Chamber of Commerce. We had a reciprocal agreement and I was attending a lot of Chamber events, and I was lucky enough to meet Richard Rush, who was the Dean of the North San Diego campus at that time. And he kept talking about, you know, they were going to have, well at one point, it was going to be a San Diego State satellite campus up in North County. And, you know, just a lot about that. So, I got to know him fairly well. And then, in 1989, when San Marcos was going to be the host city for the university, I thought, “Well, I better get in on the ground floor of this.” So, I applied to go take all my many, many undergraduate units and apply them towards a degree. All my kids were now in school. Perfect timing. So, I applied to go to be in the first graduating class of Cal State San Marcos. So, it was wonderful. And I can remember in my first--one of my first classes on the first day, Dick Rush came in and waved, sat and waved out the window. So it was, it was like, “Oh, this is great, this feels like home.” So, it was--it was very comfortable. Friedman: Oh, that's wonderful. Because I understand that the original campus was a storefront property while the permanent one was being built across town. Can you discuss what it was like attending CSUSM [California State University San Marcos] during those early days as a university? Brown: Yes, we called it Cal State Jerome’s [CSUSM was located near to a Jerome’s furniture store] and we were in industrial park and, there were very few classes. I remember we didn't have a full compliment of majors like we do now. And the first several years of campus life were only upper-class juniors and seniors, as well as teaching programs. So, we had only upper division classes and every semester there were only so many classes for each department. So pretty much everybody who was in one class was in all your classes together, depending on what your major was. So, we really got to know one another and there was a lot of camaraderie between the faculty, the students, the staff, because we were all about the same age. The average age of students in the first few years of Cal State San Marcos was thirty-nine years old. So, you can imagine that, we--some of us were older than our faculty Transcribed by Julia Friedman 2 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 members, our professors, and certainly had a lot of a local experience. But most people, it was most certainly a commuter campus. There wasn't much campus life. Friedman: What did you major in? Brown: Well, I was an English major with a minor in women's studies. Friedman: That's great. And how many students were enrolled in your cohort, or in your class? Brown: I think our first graduating class was between ninety and ninety-five, something like that. So, we all fit in Craven Circle, in three rows of chairs, just about. Friedman: I was actually expecting it to be a little smaller, but that's actually really interesting. Could you elaborate a little more on the comradery amongst your classmates? Kind of like, what was the culture like in general within your cohort? Brown: Well, like I say, most students were, you know, adults who have lots of other stuff going on. Most people were working, or parents, or involved in community activities or especially jobs. We were all [reentering]--most of us were reentry students. And so, in addition to taking classes, we had other things going on in our lives. So, it was a little bit challenging. I know when we started to try to talk about having student groups and all that. But once again, we--there was a deli in the industrial park called the Full Belly Deli. A lot of people would go there for lunch if they were able to be on campus for a whole day. Usually people came and went. It was very kind of a drive-by campus if you will, you know. People were there because there were not gathering places. So, we did try. We had powwows. Bonnie Biggs, who was the dean of the library at that time, brought in a lot of musical performances and it was really enriching and exposed us to a lot of, you know, great music. And like I say, we were involved with the Native American tribal community in the North County and so we hosted a powwow. So those were things that were also included as part of our school requirements to, you know, get involved in these international things that were going on campus. Friedman: That's great. And from what I understand, there were already some student organizations established on campus, such as ASI--? Brown: Well, no, the first year, Dr. Ernie Zomalt who's the Executive Vice President and Sandy Punch, who was doing student affairs, really helped form the first group for an election for the first Associated Students. And I had just had a conversation with Charles Ragland who is one of the former ASI presidents back in the early years. And, the first couple of years we did have the Associated Students, but it wasn't an incorporation, it was just a campus organization. We did vote and we did actually vote for some student fees. But yeah, so we did have an election and I was on the first Associated Students group and we did a lot of the heavy lifting of bylaw writing and that kind of thing, as well as trying to establish some kind of connection between students and trying to encourage them to think about imposing fees that would not necessarily impact them at all, but would impact the future of the university. Friedman: Thank you for clearing that up. Brown: Yeah. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 3 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: That's really interesting. And then as I understand it, you later became an employee a few years after graduating at CSUSM. Can you explain those roles that that you worked at CSUSM? Brown: Sure. So, after I graduated, I went to work for a social service agency in Vista Lifeline Community Services. And I was a grant writer there for about a year and a half. In the meantime, the campus had grown and were about to launch a (laughs) full four-year student body. And so, all of a sudden housing was needed. And because of my relationship with, you know, kind of the community, I had a lot of access to, you know, where to rent an apartment or this and that. I knew a lot of community members, my, you know, just community contacts. And so, I applied for a job with the university to be a Special Projects Coordinator in the Vice President's office. So, I went back and worked part-time, doing special projects. And then that job got extended to fifty percent of also housing and trying to not only help faculty members find housing, but also to help students find housing. And then actually starting the first housing program at Cal State San Marcos. So that was that became a bigger and bigger job (laughs) because we didn't have a facility. So, we had to go out and find housing. We had to find suitable housing for a group of students so that we could, you know, kind of cluster them together and create opportunities that would be quasi student life. And it was, it was a very interesting endeavor. (laughs) Friedman: It's important though. From what I understand, you also were involved in HR for many years and in the Retirees Association. Could you explain a little bit about your roles in those departments as well? Brown: Sure. So, I moved over to Human Resources as the Training Coordinator and my job was to provide training opportunities for staff and also develop a new employee orientation. So, I had the really fun job in Human Resources. I was kind of known as the “cheerleader” because in addition to training opportunities, one of the things that I really enjoyed doing was at the end of every year, we would do an employee recognition. This was before they had employee the month or anything like that. So once a year we would have an event that would recognize employees for their years of service. And just to, you know, just to thank employees for being on campus. In the early years, people moved around a lot just because of the growing campus. And so, there was a lot of expectation that don't get too used to the office that you're sitting in because six months now you may be moving to another office down the hallway. So, it was just a way to recognize, and I think the, you know, all the managers and leadership at the university really recognized how so many of the employees got called on to do things that they never expected to do when they were hired, just because we were a new campus and something new would come up and we just have to do it. And, we were very limited in staff. We didn't have three or four people in an office, but it was great. People enjoyed one another. And I have wonderful friends that I made at Cal State San Marcos, and it's carried over to the Retirees Association as well. So, and the other thing I loved about my job with orientation is that I got to meet everybody that was a new employee at the campus. So, I was kind of the face of HR, I believe, for many years, in terms of, you know, within their first couple of weeks of work, they were going to spend a day with me and I was going to kind of show the ropes of Cal State San Marcos. Later on, a lot of my job required a lot of compliance training as well, sexual harassment, and a lot of things like that in addition to the kind of enrichment training. Friedman: Well, thank you. So much of what you did as a student and as an employee at CSUSM seemed to involve community on campus. How did you see the CSUSM community develop over time? Brown: Are you talking about the campus community? Transcribed by Julia Friedman 4 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: Oh, yes. Sorry. Yes. Brown: Okay. Well, I visited campus yesterday and we walked through the dome and in the olden days, the dome was the only really gathering place on campus. So, if you worked in Craven Hall you had to walk through the dome from the parking lot and so you pass through it, it was the place that you could eat your lunch. And usually you'd always see somebody you knew in the dome. So, there were those opportunities to make friends. And some of the employees at actually were also taking classes while they were working at Cal State San Marcos. So, it was an opportunity for just meeting and getting to know one another. But, you know, I still get that same feel just when I've been on campus other times that, people are anxious to help, they are anxious to reach out. And even the President was pretty accessible when I was there. You know, Dr. Haynes was primarily the longest serving President when I was at Cal State San Marcos and she'd be out and about on campus. And, it was, it was really great to see, you know, to know that the President was walking around, seeing what was going on as well. So, and I still get that feeling that there's a lot of opportunity for meeting and greeting it at the university. Friedman: That's wonderful. I would like to jump ahead now, or I suppose, change topics. You had mentioned that when you were a student at Cal State San Marcos, you were already involved in the San Marcos Historical Society. When did you first become involved in the organization? Brown: Well, as I mentioned early on, we moved to San Marcos and within the first eighteen months, my husband had an opportunity to go overseas and teach at a military facility. So, we moved to Germany. We rented out our house and bundled up our family and moved to Germany for two years. And while I was there, I was not working. And so, I just fell in love with history. And there, you know, Europe is a little bit older than Southern California (laughs), and I just really latched onto history. And within about a month of us coming back and getting resettled into our house, I was walking in the neighborhood and realized that we had a historical house at the top of a hill, not far from where I live and it was being vandalized. So, I contacted the city and I said, “Somebody needs to do something about this, because we don't have very many historical houses in San Marcos.” What's, you know, who owns it and trying to get to the bottom of that. Anyway, the city manager at the time recommended that I contact the Historical Society and they could tell me a little bit more the house, but in the meantime, they were going to check it out and they did follow up and say, “Oh, the house has just been purchased and they are planning to renovate it.” So, that was a good opportunity for something good to happen. But I did visit the Historical Society shortly after that and was privileged to meet several families of, you know, descendants of the pioneer families that lived here in San Marcos. So, I don't know all the old timers but kind of the second generation of old timers. And I just was amazed at the, you know, what a small town San Marcos had, but what a rich history it had, which I'm still marveling at that every day. So, yes. So, they kind of adopted me. I was quite a bit younger than anybody who was serving at the Historical Society at that time and just had an opportunity to meet some wonderful people who could tell me great stories about the history of San Marcos. And so, I got involved there and just continued to stay involved for a number of years, and then took a hiatus when I went back to school. And so then jump forward twenty years after I retired and my husband and I traveled for a few years and then came back and the Historical Society was going to be relocating their museum. And that's the time I kind of stepped up and said, “Sure, I can help.” And, so that was in 2009 and I'm still there. (Brown and Friedman laugh) Friedman: Is that when you became President or were you [unintelligible]? Transcribed by Julia Friedman 5 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Brown: Yeah, I have been the President for a very long time. But yes, but we have a really wonderful group of not so many of the pioneer families are left here in San Marcos. But we do have a steadfast group of volunteers that help out. We established a hands-on history program and we've had a lot of Cal State San Marcos students. Want to find out about that. That are going into the teaching program. And we've also had a few internships and I've been able to connect with the, uh, we are a community partner through the community service learning program at Cal State San Marcos. Friedman: What has been your goal as present of the historical society? Brown: Oh my gosh. Well, moving forward, thinking about where we need to be in the future is first and foremost, we have two historical houses that will always need a lot of tender love and care and upkeep because they were built at the end of the nineteenth century, so they're quite old. So establishing an endowment fund for the houses to keep them and other historical houses in perpetuity or as long as they can stand. We also have--my immediate project is a fire engine that I'm trying to get fixed up so we can add it to our hands-on history program. And then, of course, the wonderful thing that we have is the documentation of our history and our archives. And I am blessed to be able to work with Sean [Visintainer] and Jennifer Ho on establishing a really good archival program for our records in the hope that they would be worthy of someone's collection at some point if anything should happen to the Historical Society. So, just kind of laying the foundation for the future, kind of the “what ifs” and “what would happen if” and “how might we continue to preserve these things.” Friedman: That's wonderful. That's very smart. You always need to be thinking forward for your archive collection. Going to your archive, do you have any gems in the archive that you would like to talk about or share? Brown: We have a couple things that are pretty special. So, in the early years of first establishing San Marcos, there were three distinct communities. There was the Twin Oaks area out on the Northeastern side of San Marcos. There was the area known as Richland, which is kind of the center of town and where Cal State San Marcos is. And then on the West end, there was a community known as Barham township. And Barham township today is kind of right on the border of San Marcos and Encinitas. And there was a gentleman named William Webster Borden, and William Webster Borden was the postmaster. He wrote the first newspaper that we have documented called The Plain Truth. And it was postmarked from Barham, California. Anyway, his great-great-grandson delivered to us William Webster Borden’s type desk, which is a tall chest that contains all the little letters to make a newspaper, the individual letters. And so, we are pleased to have William Webster Borden’s type desk. Another thing that we have inherited from that area, there used to be Meadowlark Ranch that was off Rancho Santa Fe Road. And we have the corral gate from Meadowlark Ranch that was taken down in the 1950s. And it is barely standing, but we have figured it up on our backyard so people can have a chance to see that. And then we have an old schoolhouse bell from the 1910 schoolhouse. And that was given to us by William Carroll, who was quite a character. He ran the Outlook Newspaper. He bought the 1910 schoolhouse in the [19]60s and restored it as his newspaper office. He relocated it on Grand Avenue and it's still standing. But he left town in the nineties and moved to New Mexico and then Arcata, California. And once he got settled up there, he contacted us and said, “I'm going to give you the bell, but you have to come and get it.” So, it's a pretty far drive up there. And the thing weighs over two hundred and fifty pounds. So luckily, we were able to find someone who was making the trip down that would deliver it to us. So, we have the original bell from the 1910 schoolhouse in our museum. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 6 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: That's wonderful. Brown: Yeah. One last thing is our museum and building itself is pretty special in that it was built in 1939 by a grant for three thousand two hundred dollars, but it was built by the WPA, which is the Works Progress Administration under Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal. And so that was kind of the tail end of the WPA projects. And so, we provided the money for the supplies, but the government would actually supply the workers and pay the workers to complete the work. So, our museum today is one of those projects from the WPA back in 1939. Friedman: That's a great story. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: Wow. You mentioned how are a volunteer-run organization. How do you think the community of your organization and San Marcos in general have contributed to the preservation of the history of San Marcos? Brown: Hmm. Well. I guess one of the things that I'm thinking about in addition to the legacy that we leave is that the pandemic has helped me understand that sometimes you can't wait for people to come to you because we were closed so much of the time during the pandemic that a lot of our programs, a lot of our volunteers, you know, we didn't have them anymore. So, recently, I was on a trip up in Washington state and walking along some of the trails up there are these beautiful displays that show a picture of--you're looking at a building across the lake, but you're seeing a photo of what it was like in 1920 or something like that. And it’s called--the little caption underneath is called Trail Tales. And so, it occurred to me that we really do need to take history out to the public. And, not just on special occasions, when I go out to do a presentation or somebody calls the Historical Society. But just for anybody who's maybe going out for a walk. So, that is one of the things that I'd like to see us do as a city and just community activity is to identify some of these areas that have changed so much over the years and have a then-and-now photo, or a description of what they're looking at, what it used to look like back in the 1920s or in 1890s. So that we just don't get used to thinking that this is the way it's always been, and this is the way it'll always be that there was something before that--what you're seeing today. Friedman: How would you like to, I guess, bring awareness to kind of that issue? Brown: Well, I guess one of the things that we have to do is as, you know, try to work with maybe developers of new projects and have them incorporate some of these Trail Tales or historical icons, so that you can, actually, from the ground level, add that to the aesthetic of whatever's being built today. I mean, maybe we could start at Cal State University and have a photo of the Prohoroff Poultry Farm, (laughs) I don't know, but, there are endless possibilities here in San Marcos. And I was just thinking-there's a new Costco along San Marcos Boulevard and that--where those buildings were airports here in San Marcos, which I'm sure not too many people know about that we had two airports here in San Marcos. So, Julia, you pose a good question. It always requires a little leg work talking just to the right people and getting people excited about things. Friedman: I would like to see that happen someday. I—(laughs) Brown: Maybe we can work together. (laughs) Transcribed by Julia Friedman 7 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: Ooh, I like that. I guess see that as a project, as an exhibit. I could see that as many things. I'm excited. I hope to see that someday. (laughs) Brown: I would love that. Friedman: How have you seen your organization grow over the years? Brown: The Historical Society? Friedman: Yeah. Brown: Historical societies, or at least ours, has not grown. It has dwindled. I think a lot of—and hopefully that is not the--or it's changed, I guess. I think there are less and less, not opportunities, but there are less and less people that get actively involved in volunteerism as much as I remember growing up. Or at least back in the [19]80s, because most people would retire, you know, between fifty-eight, sixty-five [years old], and then they would dedicate a few years to a civic organization. In talking with other historical societies in North County, groups like Kiwanis [Kiwanis International] and Rotary [San Diego Rotary], I've noticed a kind of a steady decline in those memberships. And I don't think it's because people aren't equally as busy now as they used to be, but their time is spent differently than it maybe had been in the past. And I don't know. I think my generation of people, or maybe it's just me, I tend to be a joiner. I like doing stuff with other people because I think more gets accomplished. But that's a good question. Something, I think about a lot in terms of, you know, again, what happens if our volunteers, you know, we don't have as many people that are as interested in our future or our history and moving it forward. So, my big hope is kids as all, as we like to make sure that they think history is something important and to be cherished. Friedman: How do you like to reach out to school groups? Do you have like a school program? Do you have special exhibits for that? Brown: We have, prior to COVID, we had a pretty flourishing hands-on history program for elementary students and for the primary students, they would come out to Heritage Park and participate in kind of a round robin of activities. We'd have five different activities that they would participate in. They would learn about the Native American community that lived here in San Marcos. They would take a tour of two historical houses. They would learn a craft of what kids did one hundred and twenty years ago. What kind of crafts did they do? What kind of things did they have to work with? “Did they have markers? No.” (laughs) So we do a little activity like that. We do games that kids played with pine cones and old equipment and things like that that are kind of made-up games. And then we do chores. So, they do outdoor laundry in the tub. They wash the clothes, they plant in the garden and they make biscuits and butter from scratch. So, and then at the end of the session, we get to taste the butter that we have made. So it's really about, “What was life like in San Marcos back in 1890?” And so, kids get a chance to kind of see--we partner with the Vallecitos Water District, who's very gracious to help bust the students out to Heritage Park. And then they also do a little session on water conservation. And it blends right into our concept of, you know, how did people wash their clothes and wash their dishes and where did they go to the bathroom and take a bath when there were no inside restrooms? So, it's kind of an ecology lesson as well as a sustainability lesson, but also a history lesson as well. Friedman: Those sound really exciting. My next question I realize can pertain both to, I guess, lack of volunteers and also children's education. I didn't realize it pertained to what we just spoke about Transcribed by Julia Friedman 8 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 previously, but what would you like future historians to understand about lack of funding in both education and the nonprofit sphere? Brown: Well, I guess, you know, my family, both my husband and my fathers were both elementary school principals. So we’ve been in involved with public schools our whole lives, and supportive of what public schools do and taking advantage of just amazing teachers and, you know, people who give so much to help our kids learn. And I just think that, in today's world, the things that we celebrate and invest in, while they are important, to know about, I just wish as much money could be invested into education. And I'm not just talking about K-12, I'm talking about higher education and as well. I'm a strong believer in lifelong learning and, you know, education, libraries, civic organizations are really the things that provide a huge quality of life in our community. And, you know, it, pains me a little that so much money goes into sports, and I'm not against sports, or other things that people are high ticket items, that don't end up with a lot of bang for your buck. And I just think, that it's something that we all share and we can always make better. I know there's been a lot of, you know, down talking schools as a result of the last couple of years, and I just, feel bad that teachers kind of take a brunt of stuff and just trying to do the best I can every day. Friedman: Why do you think lack of funding could be so detrimental to the preservation and understanding of history? Brown: Well, I think, I mean, history tells a lot about where we go, and where we've been. And there are, I believe, cycles that come around. But I do think, you know, again, one of the things that excites me is that I get a lot of newsletters from schools and organizations just like Cal State San Marcos. I get the update of all the cool things that are going on on the campus on a weekly basis. And I compare that with the, you know, what's on the news every night, which is kind of depressing. And I'm thinking, “Why aren't we covering all these amazing things that are going on in the local schools?” And not just Cal State San Marcos or in our local schools, but a citywide and regionwide. I mean, students are just doing some amazing things but when there's not a lot of money to support those kinds of things, it does really affect, especially, those who are not--don't have the life experience to know that you can go to a free museum, or, you know, there are free things. And I do think that educational opportunities through schools provide a lot of awareness about ways to do things that don't cost a lot of money or that are enrichment activities through the classrooms. So, and it takes money to pay for that stuff. Friedman: Yeah. That's well said. What do you think these nonprofits need to do in order to survive during these difficult times? Brown: Stick together, I guess. (laughs) Well, you know what, you do what you can do. And, you know, I'm an advocate. I don't like to, you know, diss people for what they're not doing, but really, try to appreciate people for what they do do. And, you know, make the most of it. I think April is Volunteer Month and, you know, volunteering isn't going to happen if people go and they're not enjoying it, or they're not getting some kind of reward out of it. And I think that's, you know, we need to always kind of invest in our volunteers in terms of making sure that they are able to engage in the things they like to do when they come out and volunteer. But, the Historical Society--our members--we participate in a bigger group called CINCH [Council for the Interpretation of North County History], which is all the North County historical societies. We gather four times a year just to share ideas and, you know, tips and what they're doing. And you never know when you're going to get a really good idea from somebody that turns out to be lucrative. And then I'm always looking for partnerships. I'm always looking to work with Transcribed by Julia Friedman 9 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 our agencies, our city. We're so lucky to be able to be in our city park. So we have people that come out to the park and walk by and try to talk to people that come by, invite them in. So yeah, I mean, that's my approach and I guess have grant writers that will help find the money and put it in our hands. (laughs) Friedman: That's always important. I would like to jump back a bit to San Marco Marcos’ history. Brown: Okay. Friedman: From your experience working at the San Marcos Historical Society, who do you believe are some significant historical individuals in San Marcos history, such as prominent individuals or famous families? Brown: Okay. Well, the original home--well, first of all, the Twin Oaks area is primarily--was one of the settlement areas for the Luiseño tribe. And, well, I don't have access to direct descendants of those--the mission band of Luiseño Indians are really the kind of the original homesteaders there in the Twin Oaks Valley. So, I think that we should always recognize that, you know, somebody was here before the first covered wagons came or anything like that. And then our Rancho period was very short in San Marcos. So, the first, like homesteader families that are still European homesteader families are the Merriam family. And there are a few of them still living and in this area. The Uhlands have a huge connection, not only to Heritage Park, but the whole Twin Oaks Valley area. And there are still Uhlands family members in town. The Fultons, and a lot of these, like the Fultons, the Bordens, the Barhams--those are all San Marcos street names. So, you don't have to go too far to recognize that those families have had their own streets named after them. But we recently lost the original homestead of a Fulton family, which is very sad. They had a homestead at in San Marcos in 1893, and the last family member that had lived on the homestead, moved to Nebraska last fall. So, from 1893 to 2021, was inhabited by one family. And then also out here in Twin Oaks the Astleford family were only one of two families that owned property here in Twin Oaks Valley. I mentioned William Webster Borden, the Barhams. In the Richland area, there was another Borden, Reynold Bascom Borden his house is still standing in the Richland area. So, we have, you know, again, a number of families. Friedman: That's really interesting. Are there also any individuals from San Marcos history that not as well known that we should know about such as individuals from marginalized communities? Brown: Well, actually, this is kind of interesting. Several years ago we took a world map and tried to chart all the places that, you know, people that had moved to San Marcos, where they had come from. And, while, one of the things that we realized is that we had had a very large community of Serbian and Yugoslavian families that moved to San Marcos. The Prohoroffs were originally from Russia. They moved to Mexico and then migrated up through Mexico to Southern California. We do have, we have Meadowlark Cemetery that is off Rancho Santa Fe Road. It was a pioneer cemetery over on the West end of San Marcos. And there are several homesteaders there that, you know, were there prior, between the 1850s, 1870. I'm trying to think of other--of course, you know, I look at photos of early San Marcos. We had Japanese, we had a lot of Japanese farmers that had to leave during World War II. We have a lot of Hispanic families that have come and gone through San Marcos. And usually, we will meet those people that will come to the museum that, you know, their grandparents worked at Prohoroff Ranch or in the, one of the farms here in San Marcos. But they don't live here anymore. And so, we don't have the longevity of their history. But I'm always anxious to, you know, find out some of those kind of stories that, have lived on. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 10 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: That's really interesting. Thank you. Brown: Julia. I need to get a drink. Friedman: Oh, sure. Brown: Can we stop for a minute? Friedman: Yeah, absolutely. So interview with Tanis Brown paused at 11:01. Interview with Tanis Brown resumed at 11:02. If you were to interview someone from San Marcos for an oral history interview, who would be, and why? Brown: Well, we have captured a lot of, kind of the old timey history in San Marcos from the 1800s, 1900s. But I am interested in working with people that maybe are in their sixties that have gone through the entire San Marcos school district, or actually moved here as young children and watched San Marcos grow. As an adult, I’m pretty aware of that, you know, kind of the development of the city. But it would be interesting to get a sense of a student’s perspective as they have grown. And now are adults and their take on San Marco’s history, kind of the next gen[eration] of history for the future. I mean, we have a lot of, you know, kind of more recently women in politics. And I would like to interview Pia Harris [San Marcos' first female council member], Rebecca Jones [San Marcos Mayor at time of recording], and also some of our city employees who have just an amazing background of knowledge of how things came to be. Friedman: I like that. Those are really interesting people to interview. How have you seen the city of San Marcos develop over the last forty years? Brown: (laughs) Well, when my kids first walked to school in San Marcos in 1976, Woodland Park was an elementary school. It's now a middle school. And it was built in the seventies when there was really very little money for new schools. But it was an open school. So, there were no dividers. And the only dividers in the school were short bookcases. And when we walked down to meet the principal before school started, he was standing on a ladder in the very center of the building, looking around at all the-where the classrooms would be. And, we just kind of thought, “Oh my gosh.” It was very interesting, but on the way, walking to school, our children had--we had to skirt a pasture to get to school. We don't see that so much anymore. So those were kind of our first, you know, memories of moving to San Marcos and, really being in a rural community that neither my husband or I had ever felt so close to a rural atmosphere. To, you know, watching the university get built to watching buildings get moved and relocated for the city hall complex. For--certainly traffic is very different. There were no traffic signals in San Marcos until 1974. There was one four-way stop at Mission Empico Road when I was going to Palomar College. So that four-way stop on the first day school could get really crazy. But the thing that I feel kind of most proud about is that we really established, many years ago, that San Marcos would keep a quality of life through parks, open spaces, and trails, so that if you wanted to ride a bicycle from one end of town to the other, or to visit a park, there would be one in your neighborhood and you would have a connection to that. So that part of the growth of San Marcos, I think, is going to pay off in the long run as we continue to develop new neighborhoods like North City and still keeping a quality of life, as well as accommodating people who want to live here. And that doesn't mean just a certain, you know, type of person. We need to keep are community a blended community. So young people, old people, any stripe of person can move to San Marcos, find a home, and a connection. And I think Transcribed by Julia Friedman 11 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 between city, and the organizations, and the resources that we have is that we want to be a welcoming place for anybody who comes to San Marcos. Yeah. Friedman: Thank you. What to you makes San Marcos and San Marcos history so fascinating to study? Brown: Well, I just like the idea that you can, you know, you can create things. I think people come to different communities. Something usually draws them to an area. Like even as back as the first tribal communities, they found what was going to meet their needs: water, flat land, access to food, and shelter. And, I think people are still doing that. They're looking for something that meets their needs. And so I think as we move forward that it's our responsibility to make sure that we provide opportunities for people that come here. I'm not sure I answered that question very well. Friedman: No you did, thank you. And what do you think is so important or what is important about understanding local history? Brown: Okay. Well, I think, I mean, history's human. I mean, you know, a lot of people say, and we always have to second guess ourselves, because the minute you put something down on paper and then somebody--and it's written and somebody'll say, “Well, that isn’t the way I remember it.” So, there's so much humanity in history and it's how we, you know, how we look at it and maybe our opinion of that history changes. But it is. And there isn't just one history, you know. We all make our own history. And so, but I do think--I love the opportunity that we have, at least that I have, and that we're willing to share about information that people felt was important enough to document back in the 1880s or [18]90s, and may have some relevance for us today. We recently were going through the Fulton papers, which we’re archiving, and we found a reference in a letter about the 1916 flood that was here in San Marcos, which we have a photo of in our museum. And that same letter also referenced the pandemic in 1918. So, to me, and it's like, “Oh my gosh,” because we didn't, well, we weren't necessarily looking for it, as it related to San Marcos, but when we saw it, it was like, “Oh my gosh,” it talked about this lady who was willing to go over and help her neighbors out who had the Spanish Flu. And so here it was right here in San Marcos. And I don't know, that just to me create some kind of bond between people from 1918 that were right here in the same neighborhood or in the same place that we were, or we are now. And, so I don't know. That's just so exciting to me that a hundred years ago they were experiencing kind of the same thing and not exactly knowing how to deal with it. So, not that much has changed in spite of all the cars, in spite of all the buildings, not that much has changed. We're still people. And that's what I think history is really about people's stories. Friedman: Well, thank you so much, Tanis. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else you'd like to share today? Brown: Well, I would just like to say that, whoever is viewing this video is welcome to come out and visit Heritage Park in Walnut Grove Park. And, we welcome and would love to share history with you. Friedman: Very well said. Well, thank you. It was a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you so much for being part of this project. Brown: Well, I'm really happy to--I wasn't expecting to do that. I was expecting to share other people's names, but I'm happy to have shared my history with you. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 12 2023-02-22 �TANIS BROWN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-13 Friedman: Thank you. We're so happy that you are a part of this project and we're so happy to have your story become a part of our collection. Brown: Great. Me too. Friedman: Well, thank you. Brown: Okay. So is that, is that it. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 13 2023-02-22 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brown, Tanis. Interview transcript. April 13, 2022. Description An account of the resource Tanis Brown is the President of the San Marcos Historical Society and is involved in many local history projects and educational outreach initiatives. In this interview, Tanis discusses her involvement in the city of San Marcos, CA since the 1970s. Tanis quickly became active in the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce and was among the first group of students to enroll in California State University San Marcos. A few years later, she became an employee of CSUSM, establishing the university’s first housing program and working in human resources. Now as President of the San Marcos Historical Society, Tanis is passionate about sharing San Marcos’ local history with her community and with future generations. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tanis Brown Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-13 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos San Marcos (Calif.) -- History San Marcos Historical Society -- California -- San Marcos Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-20 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Julia Friedman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tanis Brown OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BrownTanis_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-13.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Unknown Date Oral history of Tanis Brown, April 13, 2022 SC027-20 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. California State University San Marcos San Marcos (Calif.) -- History San Marcos Historical Society -- California -- San Marcos Tanis Brown Julia Friedman BrownTanis_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-13.mp4 1:|16(5)|27(8)|42(8)|51(1)|62(5)|70(10)|81(6)|88(14)|99(9)|108(14)|120(12)|134(9)|142(8)|153(6)|160(6)|174(3)|181(10)|188(9)|197(10)|205(9)|213(13)|224(4)|236(5)|242(6)|252(3)|261(5)|270(14)|279(5)|289(12)|300(5)|306(16)|315(2)|324(1)|329(14)|336(10)|344(4)|354(10)|366(15)|374(2)|381(3)|392(1)|404(14)|419(1)|427(2)|437(4)|445(2)|452(10)|464(2)|469(5)|476(9)|486(11)|494(8)|503(7)|512(3)|520(16)|535(1)|542(3)|548(6)|554(3)|563(15)|569(6)|573(12)|589(7)|597(2)|605(7)|614(1)|620(7)|626(5)|633(13)|643(10)|651(14)|659(15)|666(10)|674(3)|686(2) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/3b6624b33deba86cb7ceb886c3d6cec2.mp4 Other video 0 Moving to San Marcos, CA / Involvement in the San Marcos Community Julia Friedman: Today is Wednesday, April 13th, 2022, at 9:58 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Tanis Brown for the University Library Special Collections Oral History project. Tanis, thank you for being here with me today. Tanis Brown: Oh, thank you. Hang on just a minute. I have to—all right. Friedman: Perfect. I would like to start by discussing your early days in the city of San Marcos, California. Why did you first move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, I first came to San Marcos in 1976 in the kind of summertime. We moved to San Marcos from Escondido. Friedman: And why did you move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, my husband and I had kind of outgrown our house in Escondido and we were looking—he was looking for a little more yard space so he could start to garden. And so, we were looking for a little bit larger house with a little more backyard. Friedman: And what were your first impressions of the city? Brown: Well, when we were looking at houses, I can remember my husband telling the realtor, “I'm not sure we want to live in San Marcos. It's kind of the boonies, isn't it?” And, at that time, San Marcos was certainly not the city it is today. It was a lot more rural. Many, many mobile home parks, about twelve if I remember correctly. Only four to five elementary schools and we had two children in school, so we were looking for, you know, a close-by school and again. So, taking some choices about, well, do we want a little bit bigger yard or do we want to stay in a more developed city, like Escondido? And I'm certainly glad that we opted to move to San Marcos. Friedman: That's great. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: How did you first become involved in the community of San Marcos during your first years in the city? Brown: Okay, so, right after we moved to San Marcos, I enrolled in an early childhood development course at Palomar college. I had been teaching preschool for a number of years and the first night of class, the teacher said the city of San Marcos is looking for a preschool teacher for their Raggedy Anne and Andy Program, which was very popular. It was expanding at that time. And so, I went the next day and put in an application and ended up getting a job with the city right away within the first couple of months. And so, it was a wonderful opportunity to meet people that worked for the city. Our location was where San Marcos City Hall is now, but the building was the red barn that is now located at Walnut Grove Park, that was where all the city recreation programs were hosted out of. That was the main office for our park and recreation program. So, I started working for the Raggedy Anne and Andy Program and was able to meet a lot of people that worked for the city at that time. And that was kind of our first introduction. And because we were such a small community, a couple of the city council people had their children enrolled in our ragged Anne and Andy program. So immediately, I met two or three city council people and through their children. So that's kind of our quick introduction. And I remember thinking, “Oh my gosh, I grew up in San Diego. I never ever knew anybody who's elected to anything.” And here we are, serving, the city council members’ children. So, it was a very close connection to the local government. Friedman: Have you remained within those organizations? Brown: Yes. So, in addition, I only were worked for the city for about a little bit over a year because, we lived overseas shortly after that, but when I came back, I had already been familiar with the park and recreation program. So, I applied to be a commissioner for the park and recreation program, which is an advisory commission for the city of San Marcos, overseeing the parks and recreation. And I was appointed to that and it was a perfect timing because the city was growing quite a bit and we were developing new parks. So, we went from three parks to eight parks to twelve parks, and I ended up sitting on that commission for over twenty years. So, it was really a great time to watch the city not only develop, but also plan for open space, parks, trails, that kept up with the development of additional housing. Tanis Brown describes why her family moved to San Marcos, CA and how she first became involved in the community. Advisory commission ; Education ; Parks and Recreation ; San Marcos (Calif.) 377 Experience as Member of First Graduating Class at CSUSM Friedman: That's wonderful. Oh my goodness. So, you really saw the city expand in just your first few years in San Marcos. And then shortly after, you enrolled in Cal State San Marcos [California State University San Marcos]. You were among the first class to enroll in 1989. Why did you decide to attend the university? Brown: (laughs) Well, my other--one of the other hats that I have worn for many years is the San Marcos Historical Society. And through that organization, I got to be involved with the Chamber of Commerce. We had a reciprocal agreement and I was attending a lot of Chamber events, and I was lucky enough to meet Richard Rush, who was the Dean of the North San Diego campus at that time. And he kept talking about, you know, they were going to have, well at one point, it was going to be a San Diego State satellite campus up in North County. And, you know, just a lot about that. So, I got to know him fairly well. And then, in 1989, when San Marcos was going to be the host city for the university, I thought, “Well, I better get in on the ground floor of this.” So, I applied to go take all my many, many undergraduate units and apply them towards a degree. All my kids were now in school. Perfect timing. So, I applied to go to be in the first graduating class of Cal State San Marcos. So, it was wonderful. And I can remember in my first--one of my first classes on the first day, Dick Rush came in and waved, sat and waved out the window. So it was, it was like, “Oh, this is great, this feels like home.” So, it was--it was very comfortable. Friedman: Oh, that's wonderful. Because I understand that the original campus was a storefront property while the permanent one was being built across town. Can you discuss what it was like attending CSUSM [California State University San Marcos] during those early days as a university? Brown: Yes, we called it Cal State Jerome’s [CSUSM was located near to a Jerome’s furniture store] and we were in industrial park and, there were very few classes. I remember we didn't have a full compliment of majors like we do now. And the first several years of campus life were only upper-class juniors and seniors, as well as teaching programs. So, we had only upper division classes and every semester there were only so many classes for each department. So pretty much everybody who was in one class was in all your classes together, depending on what your major was. So, we really got to know one another and there was a lot of camaraderie between the faculty, the students, the staff, because we were all about the same age. The average age of students in the first few years of Cal State San Marcos was thirty-nine years old. So, you can imagine that, we--some of us were older than our faculty members, our professors, and certainly had a lot of a local experience. But most people, it was most certainly a commuter campus. There wasn't much campus life. Friedman: What did you major in? Brown: Well, I was an English major with a minor in women's studies. Friedman: That's great. And how many students were enrolled in your cohort, or in your class? Brown: I think our first graduating class was between ninety and ninety-five, something like that. So, we all fit in Craven Circle, in three rows of chairs, just about. Friedman: I was actually expecting it to be a little smaller, but that's actually really interesting. Could you elaborate a little more on the comradery amongst your classmates? Kind of like, what was the culture like in general within your cohort? Brown: Well, like I say, most students were, you know, adults who have lots of other stuff going on. Most people were working, or parents, or involved in community activities or especially jobs. We were all [reentering]--most of us were reentry students. And so, in addition to taking classes, we had other things going on in our lives. So, it was a little bit challenging. I know when we started to try to talk about having student groups and all that. But once again, we--there was a deli in the industrial park called the Full Belly Deli. A lot of people would go there for lunch if they were able to be on campus for a whole day. Usually people came and went. It was very kind of a drive-by campus if you will, you know. People were there because there were not gathering places. So, we did try. We had powwows. Bonnie Biggs, who was the dean of the library at that time, brought in a lot of musical performances and it was really enriching and exposed us to a lot of, you know, great music. And like I say, we were involved with the Native American tribal community in the North County and so we hosted a powwow. So those were things that were also included as part of our school requirements to, you know, get involved in these international things that were going on campus. Friedman: That's great. And from what I understand, there were already some student organizations established on campus, such as ASI--? Brown: Well, no, the first year, Dr. Ernie Zomalt who's the Executive Vice President and Sandy Punch, who was doing student affairs, really helped form the first group for an election for the first Associated Students. And I had just had a conversation with Charles Ragland who is one of the former ASI presidents back in the early years. And, the first couple of years we did have the Associated Students, but it wasn't an incorporation, it was just a campus organization. We did vote and we did actually vote for some student fees. But yeah, so we did have an election and I was on the first Associated Students group and we did a lot of the heavy lifting of bylaw writing and that kind of thing, as well as trying to establish some kind of connection between students and trying to encourage them to think about imposing fees that would not necessarily impact them at all, but would impact the future of the university. Friedman: Thank you for clearing that up. Brown: Yeah. Tanis Brown recounts her experience as a student in the first graduating class at California State San Marcos when she enrolled in 1989. Tanis discusses the culture on campus, the class sizes, and the formation of the first Associated Students. California State University San Marcos ; Education ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; University ; University and community 942 Working at CSUSM Friedman: That's really interesting. And then as I understand it, you later became an employee a few years after graduating at CSUSM. Can you explain those roles that that you worked at CSUSM? Brown: Sure. So, after I graduated, I went to work for a social service agency in Vista Lifeline Community Services. And I was a grant writer there for about a year and a half. In the meantime, the campus had grown and were about to launch a (laughs) full four-year student body. And so, all of a sudden housing was needed. And because of my relationship with, you know, kind of the community, I had a lot of access to, you know, where to rent an apartment or this and that. I knew a lot of community members, my, you know, just community contacts. And so, I applied for a job with the university to be a Special Projects Coordinator in the Vice President's office. So, I went back and worked part-time, doing special projects. And then that job got extended to fifty percent of also housing and trying to not only help faculty members find housing, but also to help students find housing. And then actually starting the first housing program at Cal State San Marcos. So that was that became a bigger and bigger job (laughs) because we didn't have a facility. So, we had to go out and find housing. We had to find suitable housing for a group of students so that we could, you know, kind of cluster them together and create opportunities that would be quasi student life. And it was, it was a very interesting endeavor. (laughs) Friedman: It's important though. From what I understand, you also were involved in HR for many years and in the Retirees Association. Could you explain a little bit about your roles in those departments as well? Brown: Sure. So, I moved over to Human Resources as the Training Coordinator and my job was to provide training opportunities for staff and also develop a new employee orientation. So, I had the really fun job in Human Resources. I was kind of known as the “cheerleader” because in addition to training opportunities, one of the things that I really enjoyed doing was at the end of every year, we would do an employee recognition. This was before they had employee the month or anything like that. So once a year we would have an event that would recognize employees for their years of service. And just to, you know, just to thank employees for being on campus. In the early years, people moved around a lot just because of the growing campus. And so, there was a lot of expectation that don't get too used to the office that you're sitting in because six months now you may be moving to another office down the hallway. So, it was just a way to recognize, and I think the, you know, all the managers and leadership at the university really recognized how so many of the employees got called on to do things that they never expected to do when they were hired, just because we were a new campus and something new would come up and we just have to do it. And, we were very limited in staff. We didn't have three or four people in an office, but it was great. People enjoyed one another. And I have wonderful friends that I made at Cal State San Marcos, and it's carried over to the Retirees Association as well. So, and the other thing I loved about my job with orientation is that I got to meet everybody that was a new employee at the campus. So, I was kind of the face of HR, I believe, for many years, in terms of, you know, within their first couple of weeks of work, they were going to spend a day with me and I was going to kind of show the ropes of Cal State San Marcos. Later on, a lot of my job required a lot of compliance training as well, sexual harassment, and a lot of things like that in addition to the kind of enrichment training. Friedman: Well, thank you. So much of what you did as a student and as an employee at CSUSM seemed to involve community on campus. How did you see the CSUSM community develop over time? Brown: Are you talking about the campus community? Friedman: Oh, yes. Sorry. Yes. Brown: Okay. Well, I visited campus yesterday and we walked through the dome and in the olden days, the dome was the only really gathering place on campus. So, if you worked in Craven Hall you had to walk through the dome from the parking lot and so you pass through it, it was the place that you could eat your lunch. And usually you'd always see somebody you knew in the dome. So, there were those opportunities to make friends. And some of the employees at actually were also taking classes while they were working at Cal State San Marcos. So, it was an opportunity for just meeting and getting to know one another. But, you know, I still get that same feel just when I've been on campus other times that, people are anxious to help, they are anxious to reach out. And even the President was pretty accessible when I was there. You know, Dr. Haynes was primarily the longest serving President when I was at Cal State San Marcos and she'd be out and about on campus. And, it was, it was really great to see, you know, to know that the President was walking around, seeing what was going on as well. So, and I still get that feeling that there's a lot of opportunity for meeting and greeting it at the university. Tanis Brown discusses working as an employee at CSUSM. She describes her work as the Special Projects Coordinator in the Vice President’s office where she aided students and faculty in finding housing near the campus area. She later worked in Human Resources as the Training Coordinator. California State University San Marcos ; Education ; Housing projects ; Human resources ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; University ; University and community 1479 Involvement in the San Marcos Historical Society (SMHS) / SMHS Archives Friedman: That's wonderful. I would like to jump ahead now, or I suppose, change topics. You had mentioned that when you were a student at Cal State San Marcos, you were already involved in the San Marcos Historical Society. When did you first become involved in the organization? Brown: Well, as I mentioned early on, we moved to San Marcos and within the first eighteen months, my husband had an opportunity to go overseas and teach at a military facility. So, we moved to Germany. We rented out our house and bundled up our family and moved to Germany for two years. And while I was there, I was not working. And so, I just fell in love with history. And there, you know, Europe is a little bit older than Southern California (laughs), and I just really latched onto history. And within about a month of us coming back and getting resettled into our house, I was walking in the neighborhood and realized that we had a historical house at the top of a hill, not far from where I live and it was being vandalized. So, I contacted the city and I said, “Somebody needs to do something about this, because we don't have very many historical houses in San Marcos.” What's, you know, who owns it and trying to get to the bottom of that. Anyway, the city manager at the time recommended that I contact the Historical Society and they could tell me a little bit more the house, but in the meantime, they were going to check it out and they did follow up and say, “Oh, the house has just been purchased and they are planning to renovate it.” So, that was a good opportunity for something good to happen. But I did visit the Historical Society shortly after that and was privileged to meet several families of, you know, descendants of the pioneer families that lived here in San Marcos. So, I don't know all the old timers but kind of the second generation of old timers. And I just was amazed at the, you know, what a small town San Marcos had, but what a rich history it had, which I'm still marveling at that every day. So, yes. So, they kind of adopted me. I was quite a bit younger than anybody who was serving at the Historical Society at that time and just had an opportunity to meet some wonderful people who could tell me great stories about the history of San Marcos. And so, I got involved there and just continued to stay involved for a number of years, and then took a hiatus when I went back to school. And so then jump forward twenty years after I retired and my husband and I traveled for a few years and then came back and the Historical Society was going to be relocating their museum. And that's the time I kind of stepped up and said, “Sure, I can help.” And, so that was in 2009 and I'm still there. (Brown and Friedman laugh) Friedman: Is that when you became President or were you [unintelligible]? Brown: Yeah, I have been the President for a very long time. But yes, but we have a really wonderful group of not so many of the pioneer families are left here in San Marcos. But we do have a steadfast group of volunteers that help out. We established a hands-on history program and we've had a lot of Cal State San Marcos students. Want to find out about that. That are going into the teaching program. And we've also had a few internships and I've been able to connect with the, uh, we are a community partner through the community service learning program at Cal State San Marcos. Friedman: What has been your goal as present of the historical society? Brown: Oh my gosh. Well, moving forward, thinking about where we need to be in the future is first and foremost, we have two historical houses that will always need a lot of tender love and care and upkeep because they were built at the end of the nineteenth century, so they're quite old. So establishing an endowment fund for the houses to keep them and other historical houses in perpetuity or as long as they can stand. We also have--my immediate project is a fire engine that I'm trying to get fixed up so we can add it to our hands-on history program. And then, of course, the wonderful thing that we have is the documentation of our history and our archives. And I am blessed to be able to work with Sean [Visintainer] and Jennifer Ho on establishing a really good archival program for our records in the hope that they would be worthy of someone's collection at some point if anything should happen to the Historical Society. So, just kind of laying the foundation for the future, kind of the “what ifs” and “what would happen if” and “how might we continue to preserve these things.” Friedman: That's wonderful. That's very smart. You always need to be thinking forward for your archive collection. Going to your archive, do you have any gems in the archive that you would like to talk about or share? Brown: We have a couple things that are pretty special. So, in the early years of first establishing San Marcos, there were three distinct communities. There was the Twin Oaks area out on the Northeastern side of San Marcos. There was the area known as Richland, which is kind of the center of town and where Cal State San Marcos is. And then on the West end, there was a community known as Barham township. And Barham township today is kind of right on the border of San Marcos and Encinitas. And there was a gentleman named William Webster Borden, and William Webster Borden was the postmaster. He wrote the first newspaper that we have documented called The Plain Truth. And it was postmarked from Barham, California. Anyway, his great-great-grandson delivered to us William Webster Borden’s type desk, which is a tall chest that contains all the little letters to make a newspaper, the individual letters. And so, we are pleased to have William Webster Borden’s type desk. Another thing that we have inherited from that area, there used to be Meadowlark Ranch that was off Rancho Santa Fe Road. And we have the corral gate from Meadowlark Ranch that was taken down in the 1950s. And it is barely standing, but we have figured it up on our backyard so people can have a chance to see that. And then we have an old schoolhouse bell from the 1910 schoolhouse. And that was given to us by William Carroll, who was quite a character. He ran the Outlook Newspaper. He bought the 1910 schoolhouse in the [19]60s and restored it as his newspaper office. He relocated it on Grand Avenue and it's still standing. But he left town in the nineties and moved to New Mexico and then Arcata, California. And once he got settled up there, he contacted us and said, “I'm going to give you the bell, but you have to come and get it.” So, it's a pretty far drive up there. And the thing weighs over two hundred and fifty pounds. So luckily, we were able to find someone who was making the trip down that would deliver it to us. So, we have the original bell from the 1910 schoolhouse in our museum. Friedman: That's wonderful. Brown: Yeah. One last thing is our museum and building itself is pretty special in that it was built in 1939 by a grant for three thousand two hundred dollars, but it was built by the WPA, which is the Works Progress Administration under Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal. And so that was kind of the tail end of the WPA projects. And so, we provided the money for the supplies, but the government would actually supply the workers and pay the workers to complete the work. So, our museum today is one of those projects from the WPA back in 1939. Friedman: That's a great story. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: Wow. You mentioned how are a volunteer-run organization. How do you think the community of your organization and San Marcos in general have contributed to the preservation of the history of San Marcos? Brown: Hmm. Well. I guess one of the things that I'm thinking about in addition to the legacy that we leave is that the pandemic has helped me understand that sometimes you can't wait for people to come to you because we were closed so much of the time during the pandemic that a lot of our programs, a lot of our volunteers, you know, we didn't have them anymore. So, recently, I was on a trip up in Washington state and walking along some of the trails up there are these beautiful displays that show a picture of--you're looking at a building across the lake, but you're seeing a photo of what it was like in 1920 or something like that. And it’s called--the little caption underneath is called Trail Tales. And so, it occurred to me that we really do need to take history out to the public. And, not just on special occasions, when I go out to do a presentation or somebody calls the Historical Society. But just for anybody who's maybe going out for a walk. So, that is one of the things that I'd like to see us do as a city and just community activity is to identify some of these areas that have changed so much over the years and have a then-and-now photo, or a description of what they're looking at, what it used to look like back in the 1920s or in 1890s. So that we just don't get used to thinking that this is the way it's always been, and this is the way it'll always be that there was something before that--what you're seeing today. Friedman: How would you like to, I guess, bring awareness to kind of that issue? Brown: Well, I guess one of the things that we have to do is as, you know, try to work with maybe developers of new projects and have them incorporate some of these Trail Tales or historical icons, so that you can, actually, from the ground level, add that to the aesthetic of whatever's being built today. I mean, maybe we could start at Cal State University and have a photo of the Prohoroff Poultry Farm, (laughs) I don't know, but, there are endless possibilities here in San Marcos. And I was just thinking-- there's a new Costco along San Marcos Boulevard and that--where those buildings were airports here in San Marcos, which I'm sure not too many people know about that we had two airports here in San Marcos. So, Julia, you pose a good question. It always requires a little leg work talking just to the right people and getting people excited about things. Friedman: I would like to see that happen someday. I—(laughs) Brown: Maybe we can work together. (laughs) Friedman: Ooh, I like that. I guess see that as a project, as an exhibit. I could see that as many things. I'm excited. I hope to see that someday. (laughs) Brown: I would love that. Friedman: How have you seen your organization grow over the years? Brown: The Historical Society? Friedman: Yeah. Brown: Historical societies, or at least ours, has not grown. It has dwindled. I think a lot of—and hopefully that is not the--or it's changed, I guess. I think there are less and less, not opportunities, but there are less and less people that get actively involved in volunteerism as much as I remember growing up. Or at least back in the [19]80s, because most people would retire, you know, between fifty-eight, sixty-five [years old], and then they would dedicate a few years to a civic organization. In talking with other historical societies in North County, groups like Kiwanis [Kiwanis International] and Rotary [San Diego Rotary], I've noticed a kind of a steady decline in those memberships. And I don't think it's because people aren't equally as busy now as they used to be, but their time is spent differently than it maybe had been in the past. And I don't know. I think my generation of people, or maybe it's just me, I tend to be a joiner. I like doing stuff with other people because I think more gets accomplished. But that's a good question. Something, I think about a lot in terms of, you know, again, what happens if our volunteers, you know, we don't have as many people that are as interested in our future or our history and moving it forward. So, my big hope is kids as all, as we like to make sure that they think history is something important and to be cherished. Tanis Brown explains how she first became involved in the San Marcos Historical Society. As President of the organization, Tanis describes her goals moving forward for the SMHS, as well as significant items located in the SMHS archives. Education ; History ; Local history ; Nonprofit organizations ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Volunteers 2676 The Importance of Funding and Education Friedman: How do you like to reach out to school groups? Do you have like a school program? Do you have special exhibits for that? Brown: We have, prior to COVID, we had a pretty flourishing hands-on history program for elementary students and for the primary students, they would come out to Heritage Park and participate in kind of a round robin of activities. We'd have five different activities that they would participate in. They would learn about the Native American community that lived here in San Marcos. They would take a tour of two historical houses. They would learn a craft of what kids did one hundred and twenty years ago. What kind of crafts did they do? What kind of things did they have to work with? “Did they have markers? No.” (laughs) So we do a little activity like that. We do games that kids played with pine cones and old equipment and things like that that are kind of made-up games. And then we do chores. So, they do outdoor laundry in the tub. They wash the clothes, they plant in the garden and they make biscuits and butter from scratch. So, and then at the end of the session, we get to taste the butter that we have made. So it's really about, “What was life like in San Marcos back in 1890?” And so, kids get a chance to kind of see--we partner with the Vallecitos Water District, who's very gracious to help bust the students out to Heritage Park. And then they also do a little session on water conservation. And it blends right into our concept of, you know, how did people wash their clothes and wash their dishes and where did they go to the bathroom and take a bath when there were no inside restrooms? So, it's kind of an ecology lesson as well as a sustainability lesson, but also a history lesson as well. Friedman: Those sound really exciting. My next question I realize can pertain both to, I guess, lack of volunteers and also children's education. I didn't realize it pertained to what we just spoke about previously, but what would you like future historians to understand about lack of funding in both education and the nonprofit sphere? Brown: Well, I guess, you know, my family, both my husband and my fathers were both elementary school principals. So we’ve been in involved with public schools our whole lives, and supportive of what public schools do and taking advantage of just amazing teachers and, you know, people who give so much to help our kids learn. And I just think that, in today's world, the things that we celebrate and invest in, while they are important, to know about, I just wish as much money could be invested into education. And I'm not just talking about K-12, I'm talking about higher education and as well. I'm a strong believer in lifelong learning and, you know, education, libraries, civic organizations are really the things that provide a huge quality of life in our community. And, you know, it, pains me a little that so much money goes into sports, and I'm not against sports, or other things that people are high ticket items, that don't end up with a lot of bang for your buck. And I just think, that it's something that we all share and we can always make better. I know there's been a lot of, you know, down talking schools as a result of the last couple of years, and I just, feel bad that teachers kind of take a brunt of stuff and just trying to do the best I can every day. Friedman: Why do you think lack of funding could be so detrimental to the preservation and understanding of history? Brown: Well, I think, I mean, history tells a lot about where we go, and where we've been. And there are, I believe, cycles that come around. But I do think, you know, again, one of the things that excites me is that I get a lot of newsletters from schools and organizations just like Cal State San Marcos. I get the update of all the cool things that are going on on the campus on a weekly basis. And I compare that with the, you know, what's on the news every night, which is kind of depressing. And I'm thinking, “Why aren't we covering all these amazing things that are going on in the local schools?” And not just Cal State San Marcos or in our local schools, but a citywide and regionwide. I mean, students are just doing some amazing things but when there's not a lot of money to support those kinds of things, it does really affect, especially, those who are not--don't have the life experience to know that you can go to a free museum, or, you know, there are free things. And I do think that educational opportunities through schools provide a lot of awareness about ways to do things that don't cost a lot of money or that are enrichment activities through the classrooms. So, and it takes money to pay for that stuff. Friedman: Yeah. That's well said. What do you think these nonprofits need to do in order to survive during these difficult times? Brown: Stick together, I guess. (laughs) Well, you know what, you do what you can do. And, you know, I'm an advocate. I don't like to, you know, diss people for what they're not doing, but really, try to appreciate people for what they do do. And, you know, make the most of it. I think April is Volunteer Month and, you know, volunteering isn't going to happen if people go and they're not enjoying it, or they're not getting some kind of reward out of it. And I think that's, you know, we need to always kind of invest in our volunteers in terms of making sure that they are able to engage in the things they like to do when they come out and volunteer. But, the Historical Society--our members--we participate in a bigger group called CINCH [Council for the Interpretation of North County History], which is all the North County historical societies. We gather four times a year just to share ideas and, you know, tips and what they're doing. And you never know when you're going to get a really good idea from somebody that turns out to be lucrative. And then I'm always looking for partnerships. I'm always looking to work with our agencies, our city. We're so lucky to be able to be in our city park. So we have people that come out to the park and walk by and try to talk to people that come by, invite them in. So yeah, I mean, that's my approach and I guess have grant writers that will help find the money and put it in our hands. (laughs) Tanis Brown discusses the SMHS’s support of education, especially in collaborating with local schools and creating museum tours for school groups. Tanis also explains why the lack of funding in both the educational and nonprofit spheres is detrimental to the understanding of history. Education ; Funding ; History ; Local history ; Nonprofit organizations ; San Marcos (Calif.) 3321 San Marcos History Friedman: That's always important. I would like to jump back a bit to San Marco Marcos’ history. Brown: Okay. Friedman: From your experience working at the San Marcos Historical Society, who do you believe are some significant historical individuals in San Marcos history, such as prominent individuals or famous families? Brown: Okay. Well, the original home--well, first of all, the Twin Oaks area is primarily--was one of the settlement areas for the Luiseño tribe. And, well, I don't have access to direct descendants of those--the mission band of Luiseño Indians are really the kind of the original homesteaders there in the Twin Oaks Valley. So, I think that we should always recognize that, you know, somebody was here before the first covered wagons came or anything like that. And then our Rancho period was very short in San Marcos. So, the first, like homesteader families that are still European homesteader families are the Merriam family. And there are a few of them still living and in this area. The Uhlands have a huge connection, not only to Heritage Park, but the whole Twin Oaks Valley area. And there are still Uhlands family members in town. The Fultons, and a lot of these, like the Fultons, the Bordens, the Barhams--those are all San Marcos street names. So, you don't have to go too far to recognize that those families have had their own streets named after them. But we recently lost the original homestead of a Fulton family, which is very sad. They had a homestead at in San Marcos in 1893, and the last family member that had lived on the homestead, moved to Nebraska last fall. So, from 1893 to 2021, was inhabited by one family. And then also out here in Twin Oaks the Astleford family were only one of two families that owned property here in Twin Oaks Valley. I mentioned William Webster Borden, the Barhams. In the Richland area, there was another Borden, Reynold Bascom Borden his house is still standing in the Richland area. So, we have, you know, again, a number of families. Friedman: That's really interesting. Are there also any individuals from San Marcos history that not as well known that we should know about such as individuals from marginalized communities? Brown: Well, actually, this is kind of interesting. Several years ago we took a world map and tried to chart all the places that, you know, people that had moved to San Marcos, where they had come from. And, while, one of the things that we realized is that we had had a very large community of Serbian and Yugoslavian families that moved to San Marcos. The Prohoroffs were originally from Russia. They moved to Mexico and then migrated up through Mexico to Southern California. We do have, we have Meadowlark Cemetery that is off Rancho Santa Fe Road. It was a pioneer cemetery over on the West end of San Marcos. And there are several homesteaders there that, you know, were there prior, between the 1850s, 1870. I'm trying to think of other--of course, you know, I look at photos of early San Marcos. We had Japanese, we had a lot of Japanese farmers that had to leave during World War II. We have a lot of Hispanic families that have come and gone through San Marcos. And usually, we will meet those people that will come to the museum that, you know, their grandparents worked at Prohoroff Ranch or in the, one of the farms here in San Marcos. But they don't live here anymore. And so, we don't have the longevity of their history. But I'm always anxious to, you know, find out some of those kind of stories that, have lived on. Friedman: That's really interesting. Thank you. Brown: Julia. I need to get a drink. Friedman: Oh, sure. Brown: Can we stop for a minute? Friedman: Yeah, absolutely. So interview with Tanis Brown paused at 11:01. Interview with Tanis Brown resumed at 11:02. If you were to interview someone from San Marcos for an oral history interview, who would be, and why? Brown: Well, we have captured a lot of, kind of the old timey history in San Marcos from the 1800s, 1900s. But I am interested in working with people that maybe are in their sixties that have gone through the entire San Marcos school district, or actually moved here as young children and watched San Marcos grow. As an adult, I’m pretty aware of that, you know, kind of the development of the city. But it would be interesting to get a sense of a student’s perspective as they have grown. And now are adults and their take on San Marco’s history, kind of the next gen[eration] of history for the future. I mean, we have a lot of, you know, kind of more recently women in politics. And I would like to interview Pia Harris [San Marcos' first female council member], Rebecca Jones [San Marcos Mayor at time of recording], and also some of our city employees who have just an amazing background of knowledge of how things came to be. Friedman: I like that. Those are really interesting people to interview. How have you seen the city of San Marcos develop over the last forty years? Brown: (laughs) Well, when my kids first walked to school in San Marcos in 1976, Woodland Park was an elementary school. It's now a middle school. And it was built in the seventies when there was really very little money for new schools. But it was an open school. So, there were no dividers. And the only dividers in the school were short bookcases. And when we walked down to meet the principal before school started, he was standing on a ladder in the very center of the building, looking around at all the--where the classrooms would be. And, we just kind of thought, “Oh my gosh.” It was very interesting, but on the way, walking to school, our children had--we had to skirt a pasture to get to school. We don't see that so much anymore. So those were kind of our first, you know, memories of moving to San Marcos and, really being in a rural community that neither my husband or I had ever felt so close to a rural atmosphere. To, you know, watching the university get built to watching buildings get moved and relocated for the city hall complex. For--certainly traffic is very different. There were no traffic signals in San Marcos until 1974. There was one four-way stop at Mission Empico Road when I was going to Palomar College. So that four-way stop on the first day school could get really crazy. But the thing that I feel kind of most proud about is that we really established, many years ago, that San Marcos would keep a quality of life through parks, open spaces, and trails, so that if you wanted to ride a bicycle from one end of town to the other, or to visit a park, there would be one in your neighborhood and you would have a connection to that. So that part of the growth of San Marcos, I think, is going to pay off in the long run as we continue to develop new neighborhoods like North City and still keeping a quality of life, as well as accommodating people who want to live here. And that doesn't mean just a certain, you know, type of person. We need to keep are community a blended community. So young people, old people, any stripe of person can move to San Marcos, find a home, and a connection. And I think between city, and the organizations, and the resources that we have is that we want to be a welcoming place for anybody who comes to San Marcos. Yeah. Friedman: Thank you. What to you makes San Marcos and San Marcos history so fascinating to study? Brown: Well, I just like the idea that you can, you know, you can create things. I think people come to different communities. Something usually draws them to an area. Like even as back as the first tribal communities, they found what was going to meet their needs: water, flat land, access to food, and shelter. And, I think people are still doing that. They're looking for something that meets their needs. And so I think as we move forward that it's our responsibility to make sure that we provide opportunities for people that come here. I'm not sure I answered that question very well. Friedman: No you did, thank you. And what do you think is so important or what is important about understanding local history? Brown: Okay. Well, I think, I mean, history's human. I mean, you know, a lot of people say, and we always have to second guess ourselves, because the minute you put something down on paper and then somebody--and it's written and somebody'll say, “Well, that isn’t the way I remember it.” So, there's so much humanity in history and it's how we, you know, how we look at it and maybe our opinion of that history changes. But it is. And there isn't just one history, you know. We all make our own history. And so, but I do think--I love the opportunity that we have, at least that I have, and that we're willing to share about information that people felt was important enough to document back in the 1880s or [18]90s, and may have some relevance for us today. We recently were going through the Fulton papers, which we’re archiving, and we found a reference in a letter about the 1916 flood that was here in San Marcos, which we have a photo of in our museum. And that same letter also referenced the pandemic in 1918. So, to me, and it's like, “Oh my gosh,” because we didn't, well, we weren't necessarily looking for it, as it related to San Marcos, but when we saw it, it was like, “Oh my gosh,” it talked about this lady who was willing to go over and help her neighbors out who had the Spanish Flu. And so here it was right here in San Marcos. And I don't know, that just to me create some kind of bond between people from 1918 that were right here in the same neighborhood or in the same place that we were, or we are now. And, so I don't know. That's just so exciting to me that a hundred years ago they were experiencing kind of the same thing and not exactly knowing how to deal with it. So, not that much has changed in spite of all the cars, in spite of all the buildings, not that much has changed. We're still people. And that's what I think history is really about people's stories. Tanis Brown discusses prominent historical figures and families from San Marcos history, including the Barhams, Fultons, and Bordens. Tanis also explains the importance of studying and understanding local history. 19th century ; 20th century ; Education ; History ; Local history ; Local politics ; Nonprofit organizations ; San Marcos (Calif.) 4470 Closing of Interview Friedman: Well, thank you so much, Tanis. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else you'd like to share today? Brown: Well, I would just like to say that, whoever is viewing this video is welcome to come out and visit Heritage Park in Walnut Grove Park. And, we welcome and would love to share history with you. Friedman: Very well said. Well, thank you. It was a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you so much for being part of this project. Brown: Well, I'm really happy to--I wasn't expecting to do that. I was expecting to share other people's names, but I'm happy to have shared my history with you. Friedman: Thank you. We're so happy that you are a part of this project and we're so happy to have your story become a part of our collection. Brown: Great. Me too. Friedman: Well, thank you. Brown: Okay. So is that, is that it. Tanis Brown closes interview by welcoming viewers to share their history with the SMHS. Education ; History ; Local history ; Nonprofit organizations ; San Marcos (Calif.) Tanis Brown is the President of the San Marcos Historical Society and is involved in many local history projects and educational outreach initiatives. In this interview, Tanis discusses her involvement in the city of San Marcos, CA since the 1970s. Tanis quickly became active in the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce and was among the first group of students to enroll in California State University San Marcos. A few years later, she became an employee of CSUSM, establishing the university’s first housing program and working in human resources. Now as President of the San Marcos Historical Society, Tanis is passionate about sharing San Marcos’ local history with her community and with future generations. Julia Friedman: Today is Wednesday, April 13th, 2022, at 9:58 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Tanis Brown for the University Library Special Collections Oral History project. Tanis, thank you for being here with me today. Tanis Brown: Oh, thank you. Hang on just a minute. I have to--all right. Friedman: Perfect. I would like to start by discussing your early days in the city of San Marcos, California. Why did you first move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, I first came to San Marcos in 1976 in the kind of summertime. We moved to San Marcos from Escondido. Friedman: And why did you move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, my husband and I had kind of outgrown our house in Escondido and we were looking--he was looking for a little more yard space so he could start to garden. And so, we were looking for a little bit larger house with a little more backyard. Friedman: And what were your first impressions of the city? Brown: Well, when we were looking at houses, I can remember my husband telling the realtor, &quot ; I&#039 ; m not sure we want to live in San Marcos. It&#039 ; s kind of the boonies, isn&#039 ; t it?&quot ; And, at that time, San Marcos was certainly not the city it is today. It was a lot more rural. Many, many mobile home parks, about twelve if I remember correctly. Only four to five elementary schools and we had two children in school, so we were looking for, you know, a close-by school and again. So, taking some choices about, well, do we want a little bit bigger yard or do we want to stay in a more developed city, like Escondido? And I&#039 ; m certainly glad that we opted to move to San Marcos. Friedman: That&#039 ; s great. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: How did you first become involved in the community of San Marcos during your first years in the city? Brown: Okay, so, right after we moved to San Marcos, I enrolled in an early childhood development course at Palomar college. I had been teaching preschool for a number of years and the first night of class, the teacher said the city of San Marcos is looking for a preschool teacher for their Raggedy Anne and Andy Program, which was very popular. It was expanding at that time. And so, I went the next day and put in an application and ended up getting a job with the city right away within the first couple of months. And so, it was a wonderful opportunity to meet people that worked for the city. Our location was where San Marcos City Hall is now, but the building was the red barn that is now located at Walnut Grove Park, that was where all the city recreation programs were hosted out of. That was the main office for our park and recreation program. So, I started working for the Raggedy Anne and Andy Program and was able to meet a lot of people that worked for the city at that time. And that was kind of our first introduction. And because we were such a small community, a couple of the city council people had their children enrolled in our ragged Anne and Andy program. So immediately, I met two or three city council people and through their children. So that&#039 ; s kind of our quick introduction. And I remember thinking, &quot ; Oh my gosh, I grew up in San Diego. I never ever knew anybody who&#039 ; s elected to anything.&quot ; And here we are, serving, the city council members&#039 ; children. So, it was a very close connection to the local government. Friedman: Have you remained within those organizations? Brown: Yes. So, in addition, I only were worked for the city for about a little bit over a year because, we lived overseas shortly after that, but when I came back, I had already been familiar with the park and recreation program. So, I applied to be a commissioner for the park and recreation program, which is an advisory commission for the city of San Marcos, overseeing the parks and recreation. And I was appointed to that and it was a perfect timing because the city was growing quite a bit and we were developing new parks. So, we went from three parks to eight parks to twelve parks, and I ended up sitting on that commission for over twenty years. So, it was really a great time to watch the city not only develop, but also plan for open space, parks, trails, that kept up with the development of additional housing. Friedman: That&#039 ; s wonderful. Oh my goodness. So, you really saw the city expand in just your first few years in San Marcos. And then shortly after, you enrolled in Cal State San Marcos [California State University San Marcos]. You were among the first class to enroll in 1989. Why did you decide to attend the university? Brown: (laughs) Well, my other--one of the other hats that I have worn for many years is the San Marcos Historical Society. And through that organization, I got to be involved with the Chamber of Commerce. We had a reciprocal agreement and I was attending a lot of Chamber events, and I was lucky enough to meet Richard Rush, who was the Dean of the North San Diego campus at that time. And he kept talking about, you know, they were going to have, well at one point, it was going to be a San Diego State satellite campus up in North County. And, you know, just a lot about that. So, I got to know him fairly well. And then, in 1989, when San Marcos was going to be the host city for the university, I thought, &quot ; Well, I better get in on the ground floor of this.&quot ; So, I applied to go take all my many, many undergraduate units and apply them towards a degree. All my kids were now in school. Perfect timing. So, I applied to go to be in the first graduating class of Cal State San Marcos. So, it was wonderful. And I can remember in my first--one of my first classes on the first day, Dick Rush came in and waved, sat and waved out the window. So it was, it was like, &quot ; Oh, this is great, this feels like home.&quot ; So, it was--it was very comfortable. Friedman: Oh, that&#039 ; s wonderful. Because I understand that the original campus was a storefront property while the permanent one was being built across town. Can you discuss what it was like attending CSUSM [California State University San Marcos] during those early days as a university? Brown: Yes, we called it Cal State Jerome&#039 ; s [CSUSM was located near to a Jerome&#039 ; s furniture store] and we were in industrial park and, there were very few classes. I remember we didn&#039 ; t have a full compliment of majors like we do now. And the first several years of campus life were only upper-class juniors and seniors, as well as teaching programs. So, we had only upper division classes and every semester there were only so many classes for each department. So pretty much everybody who was in one class was in all your classes together, depending on what your major was. So, we really got to know one another and there was a lot of camaraderie between the faculty, the students, the staff, because we were all about the same age. The average age of students in the first few years of Cal State San Marcos was thirty-nine years old. So, you can imagine that, we--some of us were older than our faculty members, our professors, and certainly had a lot of a local experience. But most people, it was most certainly a commuter campus. There wasn&#039 ; t much campus life. Friedman: What did you major in? Brown: Well, I was an English major with a minor in women&#039 ; s studies. Friedman: That&#039 ; s great. And how many students were enrolled in your cohort, or in your class? Brown: I think our first graduating class was between ninety and ninety-five, something like that. So, we all fit in Craven Circle, in three rows of chairs, just about. Friedman: I was actually expecting it to be a little smaller, but that&#039 ; s actually really interesting. Could you elaborate a little more on the comradery amongst your classmates? Kind of like, what was the culture like in general within your cohort? Brown: Well, like I say, most students were, you know, adults who have lots of other stuff going on. Most people were working, or parents, or involved in community activities or especially jobs. We were all [reentering]--most of us were reentry students. And so, in addition to taking classes, we had other things going on in our lives. So, it was a little bit challenging. I know when we started to try to talk about having student groups and all that. But once again, we--there was a deli in the industrial park called the Full Belly Deli. A lot of people would go there for lunch if they were able to be on campus for a whole day. Usually people came and went. It was very kind of a drive-by campus if you will, you know. People were there because there were not gathering places. So, we did try. We had powwows. Bonnie Biggs, who was the dean of the library at that time, brought in a lot of musical performances and it was really enriching and exposed us to a lot of, you know, great music. And like I say, we were involved with the Native American tribal community in the North County and so we hosted a powwow. So those were things that were also included as part of our school requirements to, you know, get involved in these international things that were going on campus. Friedman: That&#039 ; s great. And from what I understand, there were already some student organizations established on campus, such as ASI--? Brown: Well, no, the first year, Dr. Ernie Zomalt who&#039 ; s the Executive Vice President and Sandy Punch, who was doing student affairs, really helped form the first group for an election for the first Associated Students. And I had just had a conversation with Charles Ragland who is one of the former ASI presidents back in the early years. And, the first couple of years we did have the Associated Students, but it wasn&#039 ; t an incorporation, it was just a campus organization. We did vote and we did actually vote for some student fees. But yeah, so we did have an election and I was on the first Associated Students group and we did a lot of the heavy lifting of bylaw writing and that kind of thing, as well as trying to establish some kind of connection between students and trying to encourage them to think about imposing fees that would not necessarily impact them at all, but would impact the future of the university. Friedman: Thank you for clearing that up. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: That&#039 ; s really interesting. And then as I understand it, you later became an employee a few years after graduating at CSUSM. Can you explain those roles that that you worked at CSUSM? Brown: Sure. So, after I graduated, I went to work for a social service agency in Vista Lifeline Community Services. And I was a grant writer there for about a year and a half. In the meantime, the campus had grown and were about to launch a (laughs) full four-year student body. And so, all of a sudden housing was needed. And because of my relationship with, you know, kind of the community, I had a lot of access to, you know, where to rent an apartment or this and that. I knew a lot of community members, my, you know, just community contacts. And so, I applied for a job with the university to be a Special Projects Coordinator in the Vice President&#039 ; s office. So, I went back and worked part-time, doing special projects. And then that job got extended to fifty percent of also housing and trying to not only help faculty members find housing, but also to help students find housing. And then actually starting the first housing program at Cal State San Marcos. So that was that became a bigger and bigger job (laughs) because we didn&#039 ; t have a facility. So, we had to go out and find housing. We had to find suitable housing for a group of students so that we could, you know, kind of cluster them together and create opportunities that would be quasi student life. And it was, it was a very interesting endeavor. (laughs) Friedman: It&#039 ; s important though. From what I understand, you also were involved in HR for many years and in the Retirees Association. Could you explain a little bit about your roles in those departments as well? Brown: Sure. So, I moved over to Human Resources as the Training Coordinator and my job was to provide training opportunities for staff and also develop a new employee orientation. So, I had the really fun job in Human Resources. I was kind of known as the &quot ; cheerleader&quot ; because in addition to training opportunities, one of the things that I really enjoyed doing was at the end of every year, we would do an employee recognition. This was before they had employee the month or anything like that. So once a year we would have an event that would recognize employees for their years of service. And just to, you know, just to thank employees for being on campus. In the early years, people moved around a lot just because of the growing campus. And so, there was a lot of expectation that don&#039 ; t get too used to the office that you&#039 ; re sitting in because six months now you may be moving to another office down the hallway. So, it was just a way to recognize, and I think the, you know, all the managers and leadership at the university really recognized how so many of the employees got called on to do things that they never expected to do when they were hired, just because we were a new campus and something new would come up and we just have to do it. And, we were very limited in staff. We didn&#039 ; t have three or four people in an office, but it was great. People enjoyed one another. And I have wonderful friends that I made at Cal State San Marcos, and it&#039 ; s carried over to the Retirees Association as well. So, and the other thing I loved about my job with orientation is that I got to meet everybody that was a new employee at the campus. So, I was kind of the face of HR, I believe, for many years, in terms of, you know, within their first couple of weeks of work, they were going to spend a day with me and I was going to kind of show the ropes of Cal State San Marcos. Later on, a lot of my job required a lot of compliance training as well, sexual harassment, and a lot of things like that in addition to the kind of enrichment training. Friedman: Well, thank you. So much of what you did as a student and as an employee at CSUSM seemed to involve community on campus. How did you see the CSUSM community develop over time? Brown: Are you talking about the campus community? Friedman: Oh, yes. Sorry. Yes. Brown: Okay. Well, I visited campus yesterday and we walked through the dome and in the olden days, the dome was the only really gathering place on campus. So, if you worked in Craven Hall you had to walk through the dome from the parking lot and so you pass through it, it was the place that you could eat your lunch. And usually you&#039 ; d always see somebody you knew in the dome. So, there were those opportunities to make friends. And some of the employees at actually were also taking classes while they were working at Cal State San Marcos. So, it was an opportunity for just meeting and getting to know one another. But, you know, I still get that same feel just when I&#039 ; ve been on campus other times that, people are anxious to help, they are anxious to reach out. And even the President was pretty accessible when I was there. You know, Dr. Haynes was primarily the longest serving President when I was at Cal State San Marcos and she&#039 ; d be out and about on campus. And, it was, it was really great to see, you know, to know that the President was walking around, seeing what was going on as well. So, and I still get that feeling that there&#039 ; s a lot of opportunity for meeting and greeting it at the university. Friedman: That&#039 ; s wonderful. I would like to jump ahead now, or I suppose, change topics. You had mentioned that when you were a student at Cal State San Marcos, you were already involved in the San Marcos Historical Society. When did you first become involved in the organization? Brown: Well, as I mentioned early on, we moved to San Marcos and within the first eighteen months, my husband had an opportunity to go overseas and teach at a military facility. So, we moved to Germany. We rented out our house and bundled up our family and moved to Germany for two years. And while I was there, I was not working. And so, I just fell in love with history. And there, you know, Europe is a little bit older than Southern California (laughs), and I just really latched onto history. And within about a month of us coming back and getting resettled into our house, I was walking in the neighborhood and realized that we had a historical house at the top of a hill, not far from where I live and it was being vandalized. So, I contacted the city and I said, &quot ; Somebody needs to do something about this, because we don&#039 ; t have very many historical houses in San Marcos.&quot ; What&#039 ; s, you know, who owns it and trying to get to the bottom of that. Anyway, the city manager at the time recommended that I contact the Historical Society and they could tell me a little bit more the house, but in the meantime, they were going to check it out and they did follow up and say, &quot ; Oh, the house has just been purchased and they are planning to renovate it.&quot ; So, that was a good opportunity for something good to happen. But I did visit the Historical Society shortly after that and was privileged to meet several families of, you know, descendants of the pioneer families that lived here in San Marcos. So, I don&#039 ; t know all the old timers but kind of the second generation of old timers. And I just was amazed at the, you know, what a small town San Marcos had, but what a rich history it had, which I&#039 ; m still marveling at that every day. So, yes. So, they kind of adopted me. I was quite a bit younger than anybody who was serving at the Historical Society at that time and just had an opportunity to meet some wonderful people who could tell me great stories about the history of San Marcos. And so, I got involved there and just continued to stay involved for a number of years, and then took a hiatus when I went back to school. And so then jump forward twenty years after I retired and my husband and I traveled for a few years and then came back and the Historical Society was going to be relocating their museum. And that&#039 ; s the time I kind of stepped up and said, &quot ; Sure, I can help.&quot ; And, so that was in 2009 and I&#039 ; m still there. (Brown and Friedman laugh) Friedman: Is that when you became President or were you [unintelligible]? Brown: Yeah, I have been the President for a very long time. But yes, but we have a really wonderful group of not so many of the pioneer families are left here in San Marcos. But we do have a steadfast group of volunteers that help out. We established a hands-on history program and we&#039 ; ve had a lot of Cal State San Marcos students. Want to find out about that. That are going into the teaching program. And we&#039 ; ve also had a few internships and I&#039 ; ve been able to connect with the, uh, we are a community partner through the community service learning program at Cal State San Marcos. Friedman: What has been your goal as present of the historical society? Brown: Oh my gosh. Well, moving forward, thinking about where we need to be in the future is first and foremost, we have two historical houses that will always need a lot of tender love and care and upkeep because they were built at the end of the nineteenth century, so they&#039 ; re quite old. So establishing an endowment fund for the houses to keep them and other historical houses in perpetuity or as long as they can stand. We also have--my immediate project is a fire engine that I&#039 ; m trying to get fixed up so we can add it to our hands-on history program. And then, of course, the wonderful thing that we have is the documentation of our history and our archives. And I am blessed to be able to work with Sean [Visintainer] and Jennifer Ho on establishing a really good archival program for our records in the hope that they would be worthy of someone&#039 ; s collection at some point if anything should happen to the Historical Society. So, just kind of laying the foundation for the future, kind of the &quot ; what ifs&quot ; and &quot ; what would happen if&quot ; and &quot ; how might we continue to preserve these things.&quot ; Friedman: That&#039 ; s wonderful. That&#039 ; s very smart. You always need to be thinking forward for your archive collection. Going to your archive, do you have any gems in the archive that you would like to talk about or share? Brown: We have a couple things that are pretty special. So, in the early years of first establishing San Marcos, there were three distinct communities. There was the Twin Oaks area out on the Northeastern side of San Marcos. There was the area known as Richland, which is kind of the center of town and where Cal State San Marcos is. And then on the West end, there was a community known as Barham township. And Barham township today is kind of right on the border of San Marcos and Encinitas. And there was a gentleman named William Webster Borden, and William Webster Borden was the postmaster. He wrote the first newspaper that we have documented called The Plain Truth. And it was postmarked from Barham, California. Anyway, his great-great-grandson delivered to us William Webster Borden&#039 ; s type desk, which is a tall chest that contains all the little letters to make a newspaper, the individual letters. And so, we are pleased to have William Webster Borden&#039 ; s type desk. Another thing that we have inherited from that area, there used to be Meadowlark Ranch that was off Rancho Santa Fe Road. And we have the corral gate from Meadowlark Ranch that was taken down in the 1950s. And it is barely standing, but we have figured it up on our backyard so people can have a chance to see that. And then we have an old schoolhouse bell from the 1910 schoolhouse. And that was given to us by William Carroll, who was quite a character. He ran the Outlook Newspaper. He bought the 1910 schoolhouse in the [19]60s and restored it as his newspaper office. He relocated it on Grand Avenue and it&#039 ; s still standing. But he left town in the nineties and moved to New Mexico and then Arcata, California. And once he got settled up there, he contacted us and said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to give you the bell, but you have to come and get it.&quot ; So, it&#039 ; s a pretty far drive up there. And the thing weighs over two hundred and fifty pounds. So luckily, we were able to find someone who was making the trip down that would deliver it to us. So, we have the original bell from the 1910 schoolhouse in our museum. Friedman: That&#039 ; s wonderful. Brown: Yeah. One last thing is our museum and building itself is pretty special in that it was built in 1939 by a grant for three thousand two hundred dollars, but it was built by the WPA, which is the Works Progress Administration under Franklin Roosevelt&#039 ; s New Deal. And so that was kind of the tail end of the WPA projects. And so, we provided the money for the supplies, but the government would actually supply the workers and pay the workers to complete the work. So, our museum today is one of those projects from the WPA back in 1939. Friedman: That&#039 ; s a great story. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: Wow. You mentioned how are a volunteer-run organization. How do you think the community of your organization and San Marcos in general have contributed to the preservation of the history of San Marcos? Brown: Hmm. Well. I guess one of the things that I&#039 ; m thinking about in addition to the legacy that we leave is that the pandemic has helped me understand that sometimes you can&#039 ; t wait for people to come to you because we were closed so much of the time during the pandemic that a lot of our programs, a lot of our volunteers, you know, we didn&#039 ; t have them anymore. So, recently, I was on a trip up in Washington state and walking along some of the trails up there are these beautiful displays that show a picture of--you&#039 ; re looking at a building across the lake, but you&#039 ; re seeing a photo of what it was like in 1920 or something like that. And it&#039 ; s called--the little caption underneath is called Trail Tales. And so, it occurred to me that we really do need to take history out to the public. And, not just on special occasions, when I go out to do a presentation or somebody calls the Historical Society. But just for anybody who&#039 ; s maybe going out for a walk. So, that is one of the things that I&#039 ; d like to see us do as a city and just community activity is to identify some of these areas that have changed so much over the years and have a then-and-now photo, or a description of what they&#039 ; re looking at, what it used to look like back in the 1920s or in 1890s. So that we just don&#039 ; t get used to thinking that this is the way it&#039 ; s always been, and this is the way it&#039 ; ll always be that there was something before that--what you&#039 ; re seeing today. Friedman: How would you like to, I guess, bring awareness to kind of that issue? Brown: Well, I guess one of the things that we have to do is as, you know, try to work with maybe developers of new projects and have them incorporate some of these Trail Tales or historical icons, so that you can, actually, from the ground level, add that to the aesthetic of whatever&#039 ; s being built today. I mean, maybe we could start at Cal State University and have a photo of the Prohoroff Poultry Farm, (laughs) I don&#039 ; t know, but, there are endless possibilities here in San Marcos. And I was just thinking-- there&#039 ; s a new Costco along San Marcos Boulevard and that--where those buildings were airports here in San Marcos, which I&#039 ; m sure not too many people know about that we had two airports here in San Marcos. So, Julia, you pose a good question. It always requires a little leg work talking just to the right people and getting people excited about things. Friedman: I would like to see that happen someday. I--(laughs) Brown: Maybe we can work together. (laughs) Friedman: Ooh, I like that. I guess see that as a project, as an exhibit. I could see that as many things. I&#039 ; m excited. I hope to see that someday. (laughs) Brown: I would love that. Friedman: How have you seen your organization grow over the years? Brown: The Historical Society? Friedman: Yeah. Brown: Historical societies, or at least ours, has not grown. It has dwindled. I think a lot of--and hopefully that is not the--or it&#039 ; s changed, I guess. I think there are less and less, not opportunities, but there are less and less people that get actively involved in volunteerism as much as I remember growing up. Or at least back in the [19]80s, because most people would retire, you know, between fifty-eight, sixty-five [years old], and then they would dedicate a few years to a civic organization. In talking with other historical societies in North County, groups like Kiwanis [Kiwanis International] and Rotary [San Diego Rotary], I&#039 ; ve noticed a kind of a steady decline in those memberships. And I don&#039 ; t think it&#039 ; s because people aren&#039 ; t equally as busy now as they used to be, but their time is spent differently than it maybe had been in the past. And I don&#039 ; t know. I think my generation of people, or maybe it&#039 ; s just me, I tend to be a joiner. I like doing stuff with other people because I think more gets accomplished. But that&#039 ; s a good question. Something, I think about a lot in terms of, you know, again, what happens if our volunteers, you know, we don&#039 ; t have as many people that are as interested in our future or our history and moving it forward. So, my big hope is kids as all, as we like to make sure that they think history is something important and to be cherished. Friedman: How do you like to reach out to school groups? Do you have like a school program? Do you have special exhibits for that? Brown: We have, prior to COVID, we had a pretty flourishing hands-on history program for elementary students and for the primary students, they would come out to Heritage Park and participate in kind of a round robin of activities. We&#039 ; d have five different activities that they would participate in. They would learn about the Native American community that lived here in San Marcos. They would take a tour of two historical houses. They would learn a craft of what kids did one hundred and twenty years ago. What kind of crafts did they do? What kind of things did they have to work with? &quot ; Did they have markers? No.&quot ; (laughs) So we do a little activity like that. We do games that kids played with pine cones and old equipment and things like that that are kind of made-up games. And then we do chores. So, they do outdoor laundry in the tub. They wash the clothes, they plant in the garden and they make biscuits and butter from scratch. So, and then at the end of the session, we get to taste the butter that we have made. So it&#039 ; s really about, &quot ; What was life like in San Marcos back in 1890?&quot ; And so, kids get a chance to kind of see--we partner with the Vallecitos Water District, who&#039 ; s very gracious to help bust the students out to Heritage Park. And then they also do a little session on water conservation. And it blends right into our concept of, you know, how did people wash their clothes and wash their dishes and where did they go to the bathroom and take a bath when there were no inside restrooms? So, it&#039 ; s kind of an ecology lesson as well as a sustainability lesson, but also a history lesson as well. Friedman: Those sound really exciting. My next question I realize can pertain both to, I guess, lack of volunteers and also children&#039 ; s education. I didn&#039 ; t realize it pertained to what we just spoke about previously, but what would you like future historians to understand about lack of funding in both education and the nonprofit sphere? Brown: Well, I guess, you know, my family, both my husband and my fathers were both elementary school principals. So we&#039 ; ve been in involved with public schools our whole lives, and supportive of what public schools do and taking advantage of just amazing teachers and, you know, people who give so much to help our kids learn. And I just think that, in today&#039 ; s world, the things that we celebrate and invest in, while they are important, to know about, I just wish as much money could be invested into education. And I&#039 ; m not just talking about K-12, I&#039 ; m talking about higher education and as well. I&#039 ; m a strong believer in lifelong learning and, you know, education, libraries, civic organizations are really the things that provide a huge quality of life in our community. And, you know, it, pains me a little that so much money goes into sports, and I&#039 ; m not against sports, or other things that people are high ticket items, that don&#039 ; t end up with a lot of bang for your buck. And I just think, that it&#039 ; s something that we all share and we can always make better. I know there&#039 ; s been a lot of, you know, down talking schools as a result of the last couple of years, and I just, feel bad that teachers kind of take a brunt of stuff and just trying to do the best I can every day. Friedman: Why do you think lack of funding could be so detrimental to the preservation and understanding of history? Brown: Well, I think, I mean, history tells a lot about where we go, and where we&#039 ; ve been. And there are, I believe, cycles that come around. But I do think, you know, again, one of the things that excites me is that I get a lot of newsletters from schools and organizations just like Cal State San Marcos. I get the update of all the cool things that are going on on the campus on a weekly basis. And I compare that with the, you know, what&#039 ; s on the news every night, which is kind of depressing. And I&#039 ; m thinking, &quot ; Why aren&#039 ; t we covering all these amazing things that are going on in the local schools?&quot ; And not just Cal State San Marcos or in our local schools, but a citywide and regionwide. I mean, students are just doing some amazing things but when there&#039 ; s not a lot of money to support those kinds of things, it does really affect, especially, those who are not--don&#039 ; t have the life experience to know that you can go to a free museum, or, you know, there are free things. And I do think that educational opportunities through schools provide a lot of awareness about ways to do things that don&#039 ; t cost a lot of money or that are enrichment activities through the classrooms. So, and it takes money to pay for that stuff. Friedman: Yeah. That&#039 ; s well said. What do you think these nonprofits need to do in order to survive during these difficult times? Brown: Stick together, I guess. (laughs) Well, you know what, you do what you can do. And, you know, I&#039 ; m an advocate. I don&#039 ; t like to, you know, diss people for what they&#039 ; re not doing, but really, try to appreciate people for what they do do. And, you know, make the most of it. I think April is Volunteer Month and, you know, volunteering isn&#039 ; t going to happen if people go and they&#039 ; re not enjoying it, or they&#039 ; re not getting some kind of reward out of it. And I think that&#039 ; s, you know, we need to always kind of invest in our volunteers in terms of making sure that they are able to engage in the things they like to do when they come out and volunteer. But, the Historical Society--our members--we participate in a bigger group called CINCH [Council for the Interpretation of North County History], which is all the North County historical societies. We gather four times a year just to share ideas and, you know, tips and what they&#039 ; re doing. And you never know when you&#039 ; re going to get a really good idea from somebody that turns out to be lucrative. And then I&#039 ; m always looking for partnerships. I&#039 ; m always looking to work with our agencies, our city. We&#039 ; re so lucky to be able to be in our city park. So we have people that come out to the park and walk by and try to talk to people that come by, invite them in. So yeah, I mean, that&#039 ; s my approach and I guess have grant writers that will help find the money and put it in our hands. (laughs) Friedman: That&#039 ; s always important. I would like to jump back a bit to San Marco Marcos&#039 ; history. Brown: Okay. Friedman: From your experience working at the San Marcos Historical Society, who do you believe are some significant historical individuals in San Marcos history, such as prominent individuals or famous families? Brown: Okay. Well, the original home--well, first of all, the Twin Oaks area is primarily--was one of the settlement areas for the Luiseño tribe. And, well, I don&#039 ; t have access to direct descendants of those--the mission band of Luiseño Indians are really the kind of the original homesteaders there in the Twin Oaks Valley. So, I think that we should always recognize that, you know, somebody was here before the first covered wagons came or anything like that. And then our Rancho period was very short in San Marcos. So, the first, like homesteader families that are still European homesteader families are the Merriam family. And there are a few of them still living and in this area. The Uhlands have a huge connection, not only to Heritage Park, but the whole Twin Oaks Valley area. And there are still Uhlands family members in town. The Fultons, and a lot of these, like the Fultons, the Bordens, the Barhams--those are all San Marcos street names. So, you don&#039 ; t have to go too far to recognize that those families have had their own streets named after them. But we recently lost the original homestead of a Fulton family, which is very sad. They had a homestead at in San Marcos in 1893, and the last family member that had lived on the homestead, moved to Nebraska last fall. So, from 1893 to 2021, was inhabited by one family. And then also out here in Twin Oaks the Astleford family were only one of two families that owned property here in Twin Oaks Valley. I mentioned William Webster Borden, the Barhams. In the Richland area, there was another Borden, Reynold Bascom Borden his house is still standing in the Richland area. So, we have, you know, again, a number of families. Friedman: That&#039 ; s really interesting. Are there also any individuals from San Marcos history that not as well known that we should know about such as individuals from marginalized communities? Brown: Well, actually, this is kind of interesting. Several years ago we took a world map and tried to chart all the places that, you know, people that had moved to San Marcos, where they had come from. And, while, one of the things that we realized is that we had had a very large community of Serbian and Yugoslavian families that moved to San Marcos. The Prohoroffs were originally from Russia. They moved to Mexico and then migrated up through Mexico to Southern California. We do have, we have Meadowlark Cemetery that is off Rancho Santa Fe Road. It was a pioneer cemetery over on the West end of San Marcos. And there are several homesteaders there that, you know, were there prior, between the 1850s, 1870. I&#039 ; m trying to think of other--of course, you know, I look at photos of early San Marcos. We had Japanese, we had a lot of Japanese farmers that had to leave during World War II. We have a lot of Hispanic families that have come and gone through San Marcos. And usually, we will meet those people that will come to the museum that, you know, their grandparents worked at Prohoroff Ranch or in the, one of the farms here in San Marcos. But they don&#039 ; t live here anymore. And so, we don&#039 ; t have the longevity of their history. But I&#039 ; m always anxious to, you know, find out some of those kind of stories that, have lived on. Friedman: That&#039 ; s really interesting. Thank you. Brown: Julia. I need to get a drink. Friedman: Oh, sure. Brown: Can we stop for a minute? Friedman: Yeah, absolutely. So interview with Tanis Brown paused at 11:01. Interview with Tanis Brown resumed at 11:02. If you were to interview someone from San Marcos for an oral history interview, who would be, and why? Brown: Well, we have captured a lot of, kind of the old timey history in San Marcos from the 1800s, 1900s. But I am interested in working with people that maybe are in their sixties that have gone through the entire San Marcos school district, or actually moved here as young children and watched San Marcos grow. As an adult, I&#039 ; m pretty aware of that, you know, kind of the development of the city. But it would be interesting to get a sense of a student&#039 ; s perspective as they have grown. And now are adults and their take on San Marco&#039 ; s history, kind of the next gen[eration] of history for the future. I mean, we have a lot of, you know, kind of more recently women in politics. And I would like to interview Pia Harris [San Marcos&#039 ; first female council member], Rebecca Jones [San Marcos Mayor at time of recording], and also some of our city employees who have just an amazing background of knowledge of how things came to be. Friedman: I like that. Those are really interesting people to interview. How have you seen the city of San Marcos develop over the last forty years? Brown: (laughs) Well, when my kids first walked to school in San Marcos in 1976, Woodland Park was an elementary school. It&#039 ; s now a middle school. And it was built in the seventies when there was really very little money for new schools. But it was an open school. So, there were no dividers. And the only dividers in the school were short bookcases. And when we walked down to meet the principal before school started, he was standing on a ladder in the very center of the building, looking around at all the--where the classrooms would be. And, we just kind of thought, &quot ; Oh my gosh.&quot ; It was very interesting, but on the way, walking to school, our children had--we had to skirt a pasture to get to school. We don&#039 ; t see that so much anymore. So those were kind of our first, you know, memories of moving to San Marcos and, really being in a rural community that neither my husband or I had ever felt so close to a rural atmosphere. To, you know, watching the university get built to watching buildings get moved and relocated for the city hall complex. For--certainly traffic is very different. There were no traffic signals in San Marcos until 1974. There was one four-way stop at Mission Empico Road when I was going to Palomar College. So that four-way stop on the first day school could get really crazy. But the thing that I feel kind of most proud about is that we really established, many years ago, that San Marcos would keep a quality of life through parks, open spaces, and trails, so that if you wanted to ride a bicycle from one end of town to the other, or to visit a park, there would be one in your neighborhood and you would have a connection to that. So that part of the growth of San Marcos, I think, is going to pay off in the long run as we continue to develop new neighborhoods like North City and still keeping a quality of life, as well as accommodating people who want to live here. And that doesn&#039 ; t mean just a certain, you know, type of person. We need to keep are community a blended community. So young people, old people, any stripe of person can move to San Marcos, find a home, and a connection. And I think between city, and the organizations, and the resources that we have is that we want to be a welcoming place for anybody who comes to San Marcos. Yeah. Friedman: Thank you. What to you makes San Marcos and San Marcos history so fascinating to study? Brown: Well, I just like the idea that you can, you know, you can create things. I think people come to different communities. Something usually draws them to an area. Like even as back as the first tribal communities, they found what was going to meet their needs: water, flat land, access to food, and shelter. And, I think people are still doing that. They&#039 ; re looking for something that meets their needs. And so I think as we move forward that it&#039 ; s our responsibility to make sure that we provide opportunities for people that come here. I&#039 ; m not sure I answered that question very well. Friedman: No you did, thank you. And what do you think is so important or what is important about understanding local history? Brown: Okay. Well, I think, I mean, history&#039 ; s human. I mean, you know, a lot of people say, and we always have to second guess ourselves, because the minute you put something down on paper and then somebody--and it&#039 ; s written and somebody&#039 ; ll say, &quot ; Well, that isn&#039 ; t the way I remember it.&quot ; So, there&#039 ; s so much humanity in history and it&#039 ; s how we, you know, how we look at it and maybe our opinion of that history changes. But it is. And there isn&#039 ; t just one history, you know. We all make our own history. And so, but I do think--I love the opportunity that we have, at least that I have, and that we&#039 ; re willing to share about information that people felt was important enough to document back in the 1880s or [18]90s, and may have some relevance for us today. We recently were going through the Fulton papers, which we&#039 ; re archiving, and we found a reference in a letter about the 1916 flood that was here in San Marcos, which we have a photo of in our museum. And that same letter also referenced the pandemic in 1918. So, to me, and it&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Oh my gosh,&quot ; because we didn&#039 ; t, well, we weren&#039 ; t necessarily looking for it, as it related to San Marcos, but when we saw it, it was like, &quot ; Oh my gosh,&quot ; it talked about this lady who was willing to go over and help her neighbors out who had the Spanish Flu. And so here it was right here in San Marcos. And I don&#039 ; t know, that just to me create some kind of bond between people from 1918 that were right here in the same neighborhood or in the same place that we were, or we are now. And, so I don&#039 ; t know. That&#039 ; s just so exciting to me that a hundred years ago they were experiencing kind of the same thing and not exactly knowing how to deal with it. So, not that much has changed in spite of all the cars, in spite of all the buildings, not that much has changed. We&#039 ; re still people. And that&#039 ; s what I think history is really about people&#039 ; s stories. Friedman: Well, thank you so much, Tanis. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else you&#039 ; d like to share today? Brown: Well, I would just like to say that, whoever is viewing this video is welcome to come out and visit Heritage Park in Walnut Grove Park. And, we welcome and would love to share history with you. Friedman: Very well said. Well, thank you. It was a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you so much for being part of this project. Brown: Well, I&#039 ; m really happy to--I wasn&#039 ; t expecting to do that. I was expecting to share other people&#039 ; s names, but I&#039 ; m happy to have shared my history with you. Friedman: Thank you. We&#039 ; re so happy that you are a part of this project and we&#039 ; re so happy to have your story become a part of our collection. Brown: Great. Me too. Friedman: Well, thank you. Brown: Okay. So is that, is that it. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BrownTanis_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-13.xml BrownTanis_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-13.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brown, Tanis. Interview April 13, 2022 Description An account of the resource Tanis Brown is the President of the San Marcos Historical Society and is involved in many local history projects and educational outreach initiatives. In this interview, Tanis discusses her involvement in the city of San Marcos, CA since the 1970s. Tanis quickly became active in the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce and was among the first group of students to enroll in California State University San Marcos. A few years later, she became an employee of CSUSM, establishing the university’s first housing program and working in human resources. Now as President of the San Marcos Historical Society, Tanis is passionate about sharing San Marcos’ local history with her community and with future generations. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-20 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos San Marcos (Calif.) -- History San Marcos Historical Society -- California -- San Marcos Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-13 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tanis Brown Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julia Friedman Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Tanis Brown Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b522e906848aa65847db9109799b14eb.mp4 6f044aaeb04a95529c38e8ba1cc74d60 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral history of Thao Ha, April 19, 2022 Description An account of the resource Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at Mira Costa College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thao Ha Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-19 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam) Houston (Tex.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <table width="137"> <tbody> <tr> <td width="137"><span data-contrast="none"><a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en&nbsp;&nbsp;</a></span></td> </tr> </tbody> </table> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Thao Ha License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <table width="137"> <tbody> <tr> <td width="137"><a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a></td> </tr> </tbody> </table> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.mp4 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. SC027: California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/35e9e4684adf94123fb801dc0efe5b35.pdf 4f2797a71fce1b3f3f8626ce7b872d70 PDF Text Text THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, “Oh my God, it must have been so scary.” (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 1 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, “Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives” by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or…? Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 2 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, “How come you weren’t a pilot when you were already a pilot?” And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, “Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.” And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, “Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.” Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 3 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs; two, it was warm (laughs); and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, “Go back to my own country,” you know, “Go back to your country.” And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I—I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, “Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,” and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 4 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, “Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,” right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was—you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 5 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you’re in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, “Oh, I fallen and I can't get up,” and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, “They looked like gangsters,” and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 6 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, “Oh my God! We know him,” but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents-my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, “I did this like three years ago.” (laughs) Right? So I came home and I-and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, “Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now.” So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 7 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, “Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author.” And my parents were like, “Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?” And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, “Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.” And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don’t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, “Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I’ll just figure it out later and take the test.” Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it—or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking “Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.” And going more towards thinking “Well maybe I'll just get a job,” because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, “I don't know what I'm going to do.” And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, “That's it. I'll just go get a job.” And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, “Okay,” something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, “Okay, that's it, it's time to—" it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, “Okay if I go back to school,” which I definitely wanted to do, “I will study something that I want to.” And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, “Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!” And I thought, “Well, I will study law,” so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, “Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,” and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 8 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie’s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, “Okay, we got to get out of here,” right? “We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.” So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like-and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, “Okay, we got to get out of here!” And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, “There's a fight outside. We got to go!” So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, “Bang, bang, bang.” We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, “Why does my arm hurt so bad?” And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, “Fuck, I got shot!” right? And everybody's like, “What, what, what!?” And so, I'm like, “Drive to hospital!” Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking “What just happened?” And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe just Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 9 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 what happened.” And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, “Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.” And I was just like, “Ow!” It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, “No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this.” Like, “If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here.” I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, “Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,” right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, “Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky.” Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, “Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter.” I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, “Oh, you see that?” And so, he was pointing, and he said, “That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm.” And then he goes, “Oh, you see that? That's her nerve.” So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He’s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, “So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.” So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, “Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis.” And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents “Two millimeters.” That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, “Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up.” Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 10 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, “Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!” You know you watch on TV and it's like, “Let me know if you're cold!” Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, “I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it’s just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again.” Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, “What are your goals?” I was like, “Well I want to play volleyball again.” And he was like, “I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work.” Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, “I will write with my right hand!” So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, “Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything,” right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, “People study Vietnamese people?” It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. “Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.” So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 11 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, “Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor.” And I will never forget. She's like, “Oh, I know you.” she's like, “You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?” And I said, “No,” and she said, “Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!” And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, “Wow! I feel so special.” So, I said, “Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.” (laughs) And she was like, “You want to go to law school, huh?” So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, “Do you want to work eighty hours a week?” And I was like, “No.” And she said, “Well, you know that’s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality.” She was like, “Have you ever thought about being a professor?” I said, “No.” She said, “Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,” right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, “Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.” And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, “How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.” And I'm like, “Oh, wow.” So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, “I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side.” So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, “Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!” And I'm like, “Oh my God.” (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, “Your daughter should be a professor.” And my parents like, “Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.” (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. “Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.” And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, “If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.” So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, “Oh man, that's really what Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 12 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore,” and my parents were like, “Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer.” (laughs) “You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?” That's my mom, right? Like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.” So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, “Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.” So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, “Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study.” So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like “I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.” I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 13 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, “We should just do away with prisons,” prison abolition, like, “We don't need prisons in society.” And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, “Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society.” So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 14 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 15 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, “Oh, you did that and so you get out,” but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, “Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society,” people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don’t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, “Well, I learned that on TikTok.” Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, “Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!” I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 16 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, “Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?” And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, “I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.” And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, “I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.” So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 17 2022-05-11 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ha, Thao. Interview transcript. April 14, 2022. Description An account of the resource Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at Mira Costa College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thao Ha Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-14 Subject The topic of the resource Education Gangs -- Texas -- Houston MiraCosta College -- Transitions Program Refugees -- Vietnam Transitions (Program) Victims of violent crimes Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam) Houston (Tex.) Saigon (Vietnam) San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">in copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Thao Ha License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-21 Type The nature or genre of the resource text Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history History Department internship Immigrant experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Sheehan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Thao Ha OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. gang violence OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Oral history of Thao Ha, April 19, 2022 SC027-21 1:27:24 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Education Gangs -- Texas -- Houston Mira Costa College -- California -- Oceanside Refugees -- Vietnam Transitions (Program) Victims of violent crimes gang violence Thao Ha Robert Sheehan mp4 HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.mp4 1:|17(4)|30(1)|39(3)|50(1)|63(17)|75(3)|94(15)|109(3)|123(2)|136(1)|150(5)|157(9)|167(11)|180(4)|193(7)|203(4)|211(13)|221(4)|234(1)|246(1)|256(5)|269(2)|279(11)|291(3)|304(10)|314(8)|322(14)|335(2)|347(13)|360(13)|372(8)|381(10)|393(10)|406(5)|417(6)|427(2)|436(11)|445(16)|454(6)|463(2)|472(6)|484(14)|494(11)|507(3)|518(8)|529(10)|538(4)|544(14)|561(4)|571(16)|583(4)|601(7)|612(14)|625(18)|639(2)|650(7)|663(1)|674(13)|693(4)|705(8)|717(12)|727(14)|738(9)|750(6)|758(1)|769(2)|777(9)|789(5)|800(3)|810(5)|819(13)|831(3)|839(8)|849(4)|859(14)|870(13)|879(8)|888(14)|900(3)|910(2)|919(11)|928(16)|938(2)|951(13)|962(11)|972(15)|982(6) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e0bc9bd3a81619c640e7bc9fc529dc61.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction/ Childhood Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, “Oh my God, it must have been so scary.” (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, “Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives” by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Thao Ha discusses her early childhood. She was born in Vietnam and recounts the story of how she fled the country at the fall of Saigon as a toddler with her parents. She explains that they were processed into the United States as refugees and settled in San Antonio, Texas. HoChi Minh City ; refugees ; Saigon ; San Antonio (Tex.) ; Vietnam ; Vietnamese family 403 Family background/ Parents’ occupations Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or…? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, “How come you weren’t a pilot when you were already a pilot?” And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, “Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.” And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, “Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.” Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Thao Ha discusses her family’s background. She has two younger sisters and one younger brother. Their family also moved around often for their father’s work, and they have lived in San Antonio, TX, Knoxville, TN, Cedar Rapids, IA, and Houston, TX. Her family still resides in Houston. Thao also describes her parents’ occupations. Her father was a pilot in the South Vietnamese Air Force, but he had lost his log books when they fled to the U.S. In order to support his family, her father became a mechanic in the U.S. Thao explains that this is part of the refugee experience. She also explains that her mother was a seamstress who sewed t-shirts for babies in hospitals who was later contracted by an ophthalmologist to sew surgical eye patch garters. Her parents later collaborated with the ophthalmologist and worked together to create surgical eye patches that contained metal parts. Houston (Tex.) ; Mechanic ; pilot ; refugees ; Seamstresses ; Vietnamese family 845 Growing up in a Vietnamese community Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, “Go back to my own country,” you know, “Go back to your country.” And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I—I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, “Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,” and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Thao Ha discusses her experience growing up in a Vietnamese community in Houston, TX. She explains that Houston was an area in which secondary migration occurred for Vietnamese refugees due to job opportunities and affordable housing. Thao describes feeling connected to her community in Houston ; she had many Vietnamese friends in school, she spoke the language at home, and there were Vietnamese stores in town. As a refugee, however, Thao did also experience bullying and racism from other children in her community. It was also during this time that Thao began associating with other kids who had formed gangs. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; refugees ; Vietnamese community ; Vietnamese family ; Vietnamese-American gangs 1137 Relationship with sisters / Gang affiliations in Houston, TX Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, “Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,” right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was—you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you’re in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, “Oh, I fallen and I can't get up,” and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, “They looked like gangsters,” and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, “Oh my God! We know him,” but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Thao Ha discusses the responsibilities of being the eldest child in an immigrant household. She felt that there was a lot of pressure placed on her to set a good example for her younger siblings and to ensure their safety. Thao also explains the culture of gang affiliation for immigrant youth and teenagers. In Houston, Thao describes that gang affiliation was needed as a means for protection against non-Vietnamese teenagers. She further describes her teenage years living in Houston and her experience with friends and family in gangs. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; Refugees ; Vietnamese family ; Vietnamese-American gangs 1921 School years Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, “I did this like three years ago.” (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, “Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now.” So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, “Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author.” And my parents were like, “Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?” And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, “Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.” And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don’t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, “Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I’ll just figure it out later and take the test.” Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it—or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking “Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.” And going more towards thinking “Well maybe I'll just get a job,” because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, “I don't know what I'm going to do.” And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, “That's it. I'll just go get a job.” And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, “Okay,” something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, “Okay, that's it, it's time to—&quot ; it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, “Okay if I go back to school,” which I definitely wanted to do, “I will study something that I want to.” And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, “Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!” And I thought, “Well, I will study law,” so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, “Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,” and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Thao Ha first discusses her middle school and high school years. She recounts excelling in many subjects, but that fighting with students and truancy caused other problems while in the school system. She graduated from high school Cum Laude but describes struggling to find her path in college. Many of her friends were still involved in gang activity, and she did not know where she belonged. She explains that she decided to leave college and find a job to support her family. She also explains that after being shot in a pool hall and seeing more friends enter the prison system, she decided to go back to college and studying sociology. Crime ; Education ; Refugee ; Sociology ; Vietnamese-American gangs 2475 Getting shot at a pool hall Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie’s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, “Okay, we got to get out of here,” right? “We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.” So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, “Okay, we got to get out of here!” And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, “There's a fight outside. We got to go!” So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, “Bang, bang, bang.” We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, “Why does my arm hurt so bad?” And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, “Fuck, I got shot!” right? And everybody's like, “What, what, what!?” And so, I'm like, “Drive to hospital!” Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking “What just happened?” And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe just what happened.” And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, “Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.” And I was just like, “Ow!” It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, “No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this.” Like, “If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here.” I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, “Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,” right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, “Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky.” Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, “Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter.” I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, “Oh, you see that?” And so, he was pointing, and he said, “That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm.” And then he goes, “Oh, you see that? That's her nerve.” So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He’s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, “So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.” So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, “Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis.” And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents “Two millimeters.” That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, “Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up.” Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, “Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!” You know you watch on TV and it's like, “Let me know if you're cold!” Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, “I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it’s just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again.” Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, “What are your goals?” I was like, “Well I want to play volleyball again.” And he was like, “I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work.” Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Thao Ha describes in further detail the night she was shot at an American pool hall called Slick Willie’s. She recalls many Vietnamese at the pool hall that night when a fight broke out. She explains that she was shot as she and her friends were escaping the pool hall. She also describes her experience in the hospital and speaking with police. Thao also describes how being shot affected her volleyball career. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; pool halls ; refugee ; Vietnamese-American gangs 3230 Studying sociology in university Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, “I will write with my right hand!” So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, “Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything,” right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, “People study Vietnamese people?” It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. “Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.” So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, “Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor.” And I will never forget. She's like, “Oh, I know you.” she's like, “You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?” And I said, “No,” and she said, “Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!” And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, “Wow! I feel so special.” So, I said, “Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.” (laughs) And she was like, “You want to go to law school, huh?” So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, “Do you want to work eighty hours a week?” And I was like, “No.” And she said, “Well, you know that’s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality.” She was like, “Have you ever thought about being a professor?” I said, “No.” She said, “Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,” right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, “Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.” And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, “How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.” And I'm like, “Oh, wow.” So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, “I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side.” So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, “Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!” And I'm like, “Oh my God.” (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, “Your daughter should be a professor.” And my parents like, “Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.” (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Thao Ha recounts her decision to study sociology in college. Thao describes how her sociology professor mentored her in undergrad, provided her with research opportunities, and influenced her to go into teaching. Education ; Immigration studies ; refugee ; Sociology ; Teaching 3538 Decision to go into teaching / Dichotomy of identities Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. “Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.” And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, “If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.” So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, “Oh man, that's really what I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore,” and my parents were like, “Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer.” (laughs) “You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?” That's my mom, right? Like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.” So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, “Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.” So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, “Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study.” So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like “I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.” I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Thao Ha continues to discuss her decision to go into teaching. She also describes the dichotomy of her identity while in graduate school. She explains that she felt that she had to let go of her past while earning her PhD. Once Thao began working with individuals in the California prison system, however, she began to reconcile her past and present identities. Crime ; Education ; Identity ; Immigration studies ; refugee ; Refugee Studies ; Sociology ; Teaching ; Vietnamese-American gangs 3936 Future of the judicial system Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, “We should just do away with prisons,” prison abolition, like, “We don't need prisons in society.” And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, “Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society.” So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Thao Ha discusses the future of the judicial system. She explains her complicated opinions regarding the prison abolition movement and how she instead supports abolishing for-profit prisons and lifetime sentences for youth. Crime ; For-profit prisons ; Prison ; Prison abolition movements ; Refugee ; Wrongful convictions 4440 Family experiences with wrongful convictions/ Thoughts on reduced sentencing Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, “Oh, you did that and so you get out,” but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, “Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society,” people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Thao Ha discusses her family experiences with wrongful convictions in the prison system. She explains how a wrongful conviction can turn into a life sentence and how some punishments do not fit the crime. Thao also explains how reduced prison sentencing can depend on each state’s law. She discusses the different reduced sentencing laws in California and Texas. California ; Crime ; Prison ; Reduced sentencing ; Refugee ; Texas ; Wrongful convictions 4814 The value of education/ Experience teaching at a community college Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don’t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, “Well, I learned that on TikTok.” Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, “Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!” I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, “Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?” And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, “I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.” And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, “I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.” So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Thao Ha reflects on the value of education. She understands that a university education is expensive for many students and wants to see education become more accessible. She also discusses her career as a professor in the community college system and explains her passion for connecting with her students in a close-knit learning environment. Community college ; Education ; Refugee ; Sociology ; Teaching Oral history Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at Mira Costa College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I&#039 ; m here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that&#039 ; s where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they&#039 ; ve shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they&#039 ; re in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn&#039 ; t really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents&#039 ; lens, I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Oh my God, it must have been so scary.&quot ; (laughs) And, she&#039 ; s got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn&#039 ; t crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that&#039 ; s the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That&#039 ; s incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn&#039 ; t had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, &quot ; Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives&quot ; by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you&#039 ; re running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father&#039 ; s kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he&#039 ; s just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that&#039 ; s when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that&#039 ; s where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family&#039 ; s still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or--? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, &quot ; How come you weren&#039 ; t a pilot when you were already a pilot?&quot ; And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn&#039 ; t they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren&#039 ; t, that&#039 ; s something they didn&#039 ; t take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, &quot ; Well, I can&#039 ; t be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.&quot ; And they just, you know I think that&#039 ; s part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents&#039 ; generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can&#039 ; t be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you&#039 ; re alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don&#039 ; t think he has any--I&#039 ; m not sure, that was a good question. I&#039 ; ll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it&#039 ; s one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren&#039 ; t really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they&#039 ; re newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here&#039 ; s where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, &quot ; Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.&quot ; Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn&#039 ; t want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That&#039 ; s really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there&#039 ; s a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it&#039 ; s not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn&#039 ; t have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, &quot ; Go back to my own country,&quot ; you know, &quot ; Go back to your country.&quot ; And just the things that you&#039 ; ll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I--I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, &quot ; Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,&quot ; and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that&#039 ; s when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that&#039 ; s like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there&#039 ; s a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there&#039 ; s a dichotomy. There&#039 ; s the Thao at home. And then there&#039 ; s the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that&#039 ; s a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they&#039 ; ll tell you like, &quot ; Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,&quot ; right? Like if there&#039 ; s three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you&#039 ; d have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn&#039 ; t get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I&#039 ; m going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it&#039 ; s kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny&#039 ; s not the right word, but it&#039 ; s interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there&#039 ; s an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don&#039 ; t see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there&#039 ; s another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you&#039 ; re in the math club or if you&#039 ; re in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there&#039 ; s fun in that as well, but there&#039 ; s also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you&#039 ; re not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I&#039 ; m sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don&#039 ; t want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was--you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn&#039 ; t necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you&#039 ; re in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad&#039 ; s youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he&#039 ; s a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he&#039 ; s in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who&#039 ; s his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That&#039 ; s the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you&#039 ; re constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you&#039 ; re in a social setting who you don&#039 ; t want to mess with, and who you don&#039 ; t want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don&#039 ; t know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, &quot ; Oh, I fallen and I can&#039 ; t get up,&quot ; and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they&#039 ; d hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they&#039 ; d rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That&#039 ; s how he described them, &quot ; They looked like gangsters,&quot ; and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn&#039 ; t do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America&#039 ; s Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI&#039 ; s most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America&#039 ; s Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, &quot ; Oh my God! We know him,&quot ; but we didn&#039 ; t know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that&#039 ; s kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I&#039 ; d kind of like to circle back to your education. As you&#039 ; re going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you&#039 ; re doing well in school. But those two don&#039 ; t seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; I did this like three years ago.&quot ; (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn&#039 ; t learning. And I came home and I told my dad, &quot ; Hey, I don&#039 ; t know, dad. Like, I don&#039 ; t know what you want from us. I&#039 ; m sorry that we messed up. And I&#039 ; m sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I&#039 ; m getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I&#039 ; m in the eighth grade now.&quot ; So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don&#039 ; t have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, &quot ; Oh, I&#039 ; d love to be like a journalist or an author.&quot ; And my parents were like, &quot ; Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?&quot ; And I didn&#039 ; t know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, &quot ; Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.&quot ; And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn&#039 ; t let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don&#039 ; t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, &quot ; Oh, they don&#039 ; t take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don&#039 ; t have to go to class. I&#039 ; ll just figure it out later and take the test.&quot ; Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn&#039 ; t work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn&#039 ; t enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it--or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking &quot ; Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.&quot ; And going more towards thinking &quot ; Well maybe I&#039 ; ll just get a job,&quot ; because I need to help my friends figure out what they&#039 ; re doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t know what I&#039 ; m going to do.&quot ; And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn&#039 ; t do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, &quot ; That&#039 ; s it. I&#039 ; ll just go get a job.&quot ; And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, &quot ; Okay,&quot ; something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, &quot ; Okay, that&#039 ; s it, it&#039 ; s time to--&quot ; it&#039 ; s a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that&#039 ; s when I decided, &quot ; Okay if I go back to school,&quot ; which I definitely wanted to do, &quot ; I will study something that I want to.&quot ; And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, &quot ; Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We&#039 ; re just happy you&#039 ; re alive!&quot ; And I thought, &quot ; Well, I will study law,&quot ; so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, &quot ; Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,&quot ; and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there&#039 ; s a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie&#039 ; s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there&#039 ; s problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn&#039 ; t, I didn&#039 ; t really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, &quot ; Okay, we got to get out of here,&quot ; right? &quot ; We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.&quot ; So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We&#039 ; re like, &quot ; Okay, we got to get out of here!&quot ; And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I&#039 ; m recounting this because it&#039 ; s about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would&#039 ; ve left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, &quot ; There&#039 ; s a fight outside. We got to go!&quot ; So, we&#039 ; re running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we&#039 ; re running to the car, that&#039 ; s when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we&#039 ; d already heard, &quot ; Bang, bang, bang.&quot ; We&#039 ; d already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that&#039 ; s when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don&#039 ; t know if you&#039 ; ve never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don&#039 ; t know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn&#039 ; t even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that&#039 ; s kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, &quot ; Why does my arm hurt so bad?&quot ; And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Fuck, I got shot!&quot ; right? And everybody&#039 ; s like, &quot ; What, what, what!?&quot ; And so, I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Drive to hospital!&quot ; Because we can&#039 ; t call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I&#039 ; m in the car backseat and my sister&#039 ; s trying to tie a tourniquet and I&#039 ; m sitting here thinking &quot ; What just happened?&quot ; And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It&#039 ; s like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that&#039 ; s when I was like, &quot ; Oh my God, I can&#039 ; t believe just what happened.&quot ; And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, &quot ; Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.&quot ; And I was just like, &quot ; Ow!&quot ; It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn&#039 ; t as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that&#039 ; s what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, &quot ; No, I don&#039 ; t want to, I don&#039 ; t want to continue this.&quot ; Like, &quot ; If you go shoot up that guy, they&#039 ; re going to come back, shoot us up. Let&#039 ; s just end this here.&quot ; I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn&#039 ; t want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, &quot ; Let&#039 ; s just end here. I&#039 ; m going to trust the legal system. I&#039 ; m going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,&quot ; right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That&#039 ; s intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, &quot ; Oh, she&#039 ; s super lucky. She&#039 ; s super lucky.&quot ; Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, &quot ; Look at her X-ray. There&#039 ; s bullet matter, there&#039 ; s bone matter, there&#039 ; s tissue matter.&quot ; I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, &quot ; Oh, you see that?&quot ; And so, he was pointing, and he said, &quot ; That&#039 ; s her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would&#039 ; ve had to amputate her arm.&quot ; And then he goes, &quot ; Oh, you see that? That&#039 ; s her nerve.&quot ; So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He&#039 ; s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He&#039 ; s like, &quot ; So we&#039 ; re going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don&#039 ; t know how much mobility she&#039 ; ll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she&#039 ; ll have her arm. We won&#039 ; t have to cut it off and she&#039 ; ll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.&quot ; So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, &quot ; Oh, okay. So, I&#039 ; m lucky to be alive. I&#039 ; m lucky not to have amputation. I&#039 ; m lucky to have, not paralysis.&quot ; And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don&#039 ; t know why, but I remember him telling my parents &quot ; Two millimeters.&quot ; That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, &quot ; Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don&#039 ; t screw it up.&quot ; Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It&#039 ; s like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You&#039 ; re so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she&#039 ; s freaking out. She&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!&quot ; You know you watch on TV and it&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Let me know if you&#039 ; re cold!&quot ; Right? Like, because somebody&#039 ; s dying. And I was like, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t think I&#039 ; m dying sis[ter], I think it&#039 ; s just my arm. But I don&#039 ; t know if I&#039 ; m going to ever play volleyball again.&quot ; Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, &quot ; What are your goals?&quot ; I was like, &quot ; Well I want to play volleyball again.&quot ; And he was like, &quot ; I can&#039 ; t promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It&#039 ; s going to be how hard you work.&quot ; Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I&#039 ; m missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn&#039 ; t have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That&#039 ; s good to hear. So, you&#039 ; ve got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there&#039 ; s a lot of scar tissue in there. It&#039 ; s not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it&#039 ; s not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there&#039 ; s just too much scar tissue. So, it can&#039 ; t bend and it gets sore more easily. There&#039 ; s been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it&#039 ; s all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I&#039 ; m assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, &quot ; I will write with my right hand!&quot ; So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there&#039 ; s one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I&#039 ; m being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, &quot ; Oh gosh, if I could just change one person&#039 ; s life, it would mean everything,&quot ; right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; People study Vietnamese people?&quot ; It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. &quot ; Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.&quot ; So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that&#039 ; s why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there&#039 ; s something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, &quot ; Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you&#039 ; re my sociology professor.&quot ; And I will never forget. She&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Oh, I know you.&quot ; she&#039 ; s like, &quot ; You&#039 ; re a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; No,&quot ; and she said, &quot ; Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!&quot ; And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, &quot ; Wow! I feel so special.&quot ; So, I said, &quot ; Well, I came to ask you if there&#039 ; s any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.&quot ; (laughs) And she was like, &quot ; You want to go to law school, huh?&quot ; So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, &quot ; Do you want to work eighty hours a week?&quot ; And I was like, &quot ; No.&quot ; And she said, &quot ; Well, you know that&#039 ; s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I&#039 ; m just giving you a reality.&quot ; She was like, &quot ; Have you ever thought about being a professor?&quot ; I said, &quot ; No.&quot ; She said, &quot ; Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,&quot ; right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, &quot ; Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.&quot ; And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, &quot ; How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.&quot ; And I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Oh, wow.&quot ; So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, &quot ; I want you to present your paper at a conference. It&#039 ; s going to be at the college, and you&#039 ; ll be in front of hundreds of people, but don&#039 ; t worry, I&#039 ; ll be there. I&#039 ; ll be right there by your side.&quot ; So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don&#039 ; t know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, &quot ; Oh, we&#039 ; re so proud of you. You did so well!&quot ; And I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Oh my God.&quot ; (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I&#039 ; m sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, &quot ; Your daughter should be a professor.&quot ; And my parents like, &quot ; Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.&quot ; (laughs) Sheehan: It&#039 ; s nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor&#039 ; s Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. &quot ; Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor&#039 ; s now you can get in and finish your Master&#039 ; s in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you&#039 ; ll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.&quot ; And so literally she laid out this option for me. She&#039 ; s like, &quot ; If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.&quot ; So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, &quot ; Oh man, that&#039 ; s really what I want to do. I don&#039 ; t think I want to I go to law school anymore,&quot ; and my parents were like, &quot ; Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don&#039 ; t want to be a lawyer.&quot ; (laughs) &quot ; You&#039 ; re going to have to lie. You have to lie if you&#039 ; re a lawyer, do you want to do that?&quot ; That&#039 ; s my mom, right? Like, &quot ; Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.&quot ; So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that&#039 ; s a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can&#039 ; t hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I&#039 ; m like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn&#039 ; t what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Just forget about us. We&#039 ; re not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.&quot ; So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn&#039 ; t like, &quot ; Oh, you should totally make this your Master&#039 ; s degree study.&quot ; So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like &quot ; I&#039 ; m not going to tell anybody that&#039 ; s who I was. I don&#039 ; t want them to judge me. I don&#039 ; t want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.&quot ; I don&#039 ; t tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn&#039 ; t until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it&#039 ; s very full circle. So that&#039 ; s where I&#039 ; m at now. And that&#039 ; s kind of the work that I champion, and I&#039 ; m not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn&#039 ; t exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you&#039 ; ve had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that&#039 ; s a really good question, because there&#039 ; s so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, &quot ; We should just do away with prisons,&quot ; prison abolition, like, &quot ; We don&#039 ; t need prisons in society.&quot ; And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it&#039 ; s very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who&#039 ; ve done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It&#039 ; s like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It&#039 ; s a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there&#039 ; s other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they&#039 ; re out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don&#039 ; t think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who&#039 ; ve done long, long prison sentences. So, I&#039 ; m not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they&#039 ; ve done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don&#039 ; t think that that works. There&#039 ; s no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, &quot ; Well, you&#039 ; re done. We just need to be done with you in society.&quot ; So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that&#039 ; s a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we&#039 ; ve seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we&#039 ; re dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that&#039 ; s a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we&#039 ; re allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it&#039 ; s awful. I mean, let&#039 ; s look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They&#039 ; re not fully developed. We do stupid things when we&#039 ; re young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would&#039 ; ve gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would&#039 ; ve went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there&#039 ; s already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I&#039 ; m in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it&#039 ; s one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it&#039 ; s not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let&#039 ; s say there&#039 ; s a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I&#039 ; ve seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you&#039 ; re eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you&#039 ; re forty-eight years old. You&#039 ; ve missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we&#039 ; re incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there&#039 ; s a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn&#039 ; t really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I&#039 ; m not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would&#039 ; ve happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That&#039 ; s a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn&#039 ; t like an automatic, like, &quot ; Oh, you did that and so you get out,&quot ; but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, &quot ; Okay, you&#039 ; ve changed, and you&#039 ; ve rehabilitated, and you&#039 ; re no longer threat to society,&quot ; people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn&#039 ; t necessarily violent, let&#039 ; s say you--I&#039 ; m trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn&#039 ; t inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you&#039 ; re not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there&#039 ; s been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you&#039 ; re probably going do your full time. You&#039 ; re not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I&#039 ; m coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I&#039 ; ll guess I&#039 ; ll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you&#039 ; d like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it&#039 ; s 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It&#039 ; s not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don&#039 ; t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who&#039 ; s twenty years old, and she&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Well, I learned that on TikTok.&quot ; Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they&#039 ; re formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they&#039 ; re like, &quot ; Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!&quot ; I don&#039 ; t think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you&#039 ; ll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That&#039 ; s a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don&#039 ; t mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don&#039 ; t. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn&#039 ; t applied to any universities yet, I didn&#039 ; t qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, &quot ; Man, I&#039 ; ve got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?&quot ; And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that&#039 ; s different from university, but that&#039 ; s also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let&#039 ; s not discount it, given that we&#039 ; re going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we&#039 ; re not in person, right? But we&#039 ; re human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can&#039 ; t untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, &quot ; I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.&quot ; And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.&quot ; So, there&#039 ; s a financial benefit, there&#039 ; s the social benefit, there&#039 ; s the intimidation factor that is less because you&#039 ; re not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, &quot ; Oh my God, it must have been so scary.&quot ; (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, &quot ; Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives&quot ; by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or--? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, &quot ; How come you weren't a pilot when you were already a pilot?&quot ; And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, &quot ; Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.&quot ; And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, &quot ; Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.&quot ; Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, &quot ; Go back to my own country,&quot ; you know, &quot ; Go back to your country.&quot ; And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I--I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, &quot ; Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,&quot ; and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, &quot ; Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,&quot ; right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was--you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you're in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, &quot ; Oh, I fallen and I can't get up,&quot ; and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, &quot ; They looked like gangsters,&quot ; and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, &quot ; Oh my God! We know him,&quot ; but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, &quot ; I did this like three years ago.&quot ; (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, &quot ; Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now.&quot ; So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, &quot ; Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author.&quot ; And my parents were like, &quot ; Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?&quot ; And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, &quot ; Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.&quot ; And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don't know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, &quot ; Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I'll just figure it out later and take the test.&quot ; Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it--or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking &quot ; Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.&quot ; And going more towards thinking &quot ; Well maybe I'll just get a job,&quot ; because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, &quot ; I don't know what I'm going to do.&quot ; And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, &quot ; That's it. I'll just go get a job.&quot ; And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, &quot ; Okay,&quot ; something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, &quot ; Okay, that's it, it's time to--&quot ; it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, &quot ; Okay if I go back to school,&quot ; which I definitely wanted to do, &quot ; I will study something that I want to.&quot ; And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, &quot ; Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!&quot ; And I thought, &quot ; Well, I will study law,&quot ; so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, &quot ; Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,&quot ; and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie's. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, &quot ; Okay, we got to get out of here,&quot ; right? &quot ; We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.&quot ; So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, &quot ; Okay, we got to get out of here!&quot ; And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, &quot ; There's a fight outside. We got to go!&quot ; So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, &quot ; Bang, bang, bang.&quot ; We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, &quot ; Why does my arm hurt so bad?&quot ; And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, &quot ; Fuck, I got shot!&quot ; right? And everybody's like, &quot ; What, what, what!?&quot ; And so, I'm like, &quot ; Drive to hospital!&quot ; Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking &quot ; What just happened?&quot ; And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, &quot ; Oh my God, I can't believe just what happened.&quot ; And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, &quot ; Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.&quot ; And I was just like, &quot ; Ow!&quot ; It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, &quot ; No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this.&quot ; Like, &quot ; If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here.&quot ; I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, &quot ; Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,&quot ; right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, &quot ; Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky.&quot ; Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, &quot ; Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter.&quot ; I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, &quot ; Oh, you see that?&quot ; And so, he was pointing, and he said, &quot ; That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm.&quot ; And then he goes, &quot ; Oh, you see that? That's her nerve.&quot ; So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He's like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, &quot ; So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.&quot ; So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, &quot ; Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis.&quot ; And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents &quot ; Two millimeters.&quot ; That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, &quot ; Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up.&quot ; Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, &quot ; Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!&quot ; You know you watch on TV and it's like, &quot ; Let me know if you're cold!&quot ; Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, &quot ; I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it's just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again.&quot ; Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, &quot ; What are your goals?&quot ; I was like, &quot ; Well I want to play volleyball again.&quot ; And he was like, &quot ; I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work.&quot ; Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, &quot ; I will write with my right hand!&quot ; So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, &quot ; Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything,&quot ; right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, &quot ; People study Vietnamese people?&quot ; It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. &quot ; Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.&quot ; So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, &quot ; Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor.&quot ; And I will never forget. She's like, &quot ; Oh, I know you.&quot ; she's like, &quot ; You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; No,&quot ; and she said, &quot ; Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!&quot ; And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, &quot ; Wow! I feel so special.&quot ; So, I said, &quot ; Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.&quot ; (laughs) And she was like, &quot ; You want to go to law school, huh?&quot ; So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, &quot ; Do you want to work eighty hours a week?&quot ; And I was like, &quot ; No.&quot ; And she said, &quot ; Well, you know that's the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality.&quot ; She was like, &quot ; Have you ever thought about being a professor?&quot ; I said, &quot ; No.&quot ; She said, &quot ; Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,&quot ; right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, &quot ; Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.&quot ; And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, &quot ; How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.&quot ; And I'm like, &quot ; Oh, wow.&quot ; So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, &quot ; I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side.&quot ; So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, &quot ; Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!&quot ; And I'm like, &quot ; Oh my God.&quot ; (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, &quot ; Your daughter should be a professor.&quot ; And my parents like, &quot ; Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.&quot ; (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. &quot ; Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.&quot ; And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, &quot ; If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.&quot ; So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, &quot ; Oh man, that's really what I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore,&quot ; and my parents were like, &quot ; Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer.&quot ; (laughs) &quot ; You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?&quot ; That's my mom, right? Like, &quot ; Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.&quot ; So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, &quot ; Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.&quot ; So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, &quot ; Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study.&quot ; So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like &quot ; I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.&quot ; I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, &quot ; We should just do away with prisons,&quot ; prison abolition, like, &quot ; We don't need prisons in society.&quot ; And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, &quot ; Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society.&quot ; So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, &quot ; Oh, you did that and so you get out,&quot ; but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, &quot ; Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society,&quot ; people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don't know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, &quot ; Well, I learned that on TikTok.&quot ; Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, &quot ; Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!&quot ; I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, &quot ; Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?&quot ; And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, &quot ; I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.&quot ; And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, &quot ; I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.&quot ; So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.xml HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ha, Thao. Interview April 19, 2022 Description An account of the resource Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at MiraCosta College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-21 Subject The topic of the resource Education Gangs -- Texas -- Houston MiraCosta College -- Transitions Program Refugees -- Vietnam Transitions (Program) Victims of violent crimes Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-19 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thao Ha Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Houston (Tex.) Oceanside (Calif.) Vietnam Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Thao Ha Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history History Department internship Immigrant experience Women's experience