17 10 196 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c5940d5103570c06601179277b230b8f.pdf 6501572b27876302ad6780f8f8a675fb PDF Text Text JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 Seth Stanley [Interviewer]: This is Seth Stanley. Today I'm interviewing Jenny Ruiz for the California State University San Marcos Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Hi Jenny. Thank you for coming. Jennie Ruiz [Narrator]: Hi, Seth <laughs>. SS: To start out, uh, can you tell me a little bit about your background and how that maybe has influenced your work in higher education? JR: Oh, goodness. Okay. Background. How far do you, how do you, how far do you want me to go? SS: As long as you want. JR: Oh goodness. Well, I was born, no, um-SS: Go for it. JR: Background. Um, so I'm born and raised in San Diego, um, from Mira Mesa originally, um, went to college up at Sonoma State. For my undergrad. And did, um, got my degree in sociology. So I did a few different majors, but then I landed on sociology cause I had a really great Intro to Soc[iology] professor who I really enjoyed. Um, and through my time at Sonoma State, I got involved in various things. I mainly had to work on campus just to pay bills and live and all that. So I worked in like different food service and I worked in retail off campus, and actually told the story last, it was, what was it, Tuesday at a session I led about my like, professional journey. 1 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 But I had a, a job on campus where I was having to put up flyers across campus and I hated it. I would have like hundreds of flyers to post. Um, this is before lot. This is before like electronic signage and all of that. So I, um, and I was miserable but I saw a flyer for a job in the Career Center on campus and I'm like, thank goodness no one else has seen this ad at this point ‘cause I'm putting the ads up, so I'm gonna apply for this job, which I did. And that kind of took me into this path of, um, of higher ed and student affairs. It kind of opened me up into, like the orientation, you know, kind of world new student orientation, ‘cause a lot of things were run through that area. Academic advising, I interacted with, um, the program called Freshman Seminar there, which is similar to our GEL program here [program geared towards first-year students and student success in academia]. So I served in various leadership roles. I actually got, uh, I was on the dean's list one semester. There, grades were never my thing, but one semester I got on the dean's list and I got an invitation to apply for leadership positions on campus. So that in conjunction with my job in the Career Center just kind of launched me into kind of the higher ed. like, oh, this is kind of fun! So I was an orientation leader. I worked as a peer mentor in our freshman seminar class. I was a student assistant [at the] Career Center. And then once I graduated, I was looking into kind of a counseling area. Um, didn't quite know what I was going to do and my dad, funny enough, got me a book called What to Do with a Sociology Degree, and I was reading it one day and there was a paragraph on college counseling and I was like, of course I could do this job for work! I had never even connected [that] the professional staff that I worked with were doing that as a career. So that kind of, you know, launched me and I applied for grad school. I went to USD [University of San Diego] for my master's in counseling with a specialization in college student development. Worked in my orientation, worked in the orientation program there as a grad assistant. And then after that, got a job at Stony Brook University in New York as a residence hall director. Um, my friend tipped me off to a job that was here at Cal State San Marcos to be Coordinator of New Student Programs. So I applied for that job and I thankfully got it. And, um, that started my career here back in 2006, back when, funny enough, C3 [Cross-Cultural Center] was literally, I think the size of this room when I first started on the fourth floor, third floor of, um, no, the administrative building past, then [named] Craven Hall. So, and then since then I've just held a variety of positions and here I am. <laugh>. SS: [Inaudible] Tell me more about what motivated you to work in a specifically a college setting and specifically supporting student success. JR: Yeah. I think people go into higher ed or any of their professions for one or two reasons: either they had a really good experience or they had a really awful experience and didn't want that to be repeated for somebody else. In my case, I had a fantastic college experience. I had great mentors, I had really great opportunities. Um, so I felt very fortunate. And I just, you know, in my work as a peer mentor in the freshman seminar class, I was meeting individually with these first time freshmen, really working with them and, and you know, talking with them about just life and how to connect and find their place on 2 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 campus. And I found myself really enjoying it and kind of becoming-- it was a natural thing to me. Um, and so I think I wanted to feel that in my career, be able to really take that with me. And, one of the great things about I think this campus, but just the CSU [California State University] is I think our students are just so special and just work so hard. Not saying that students don't work hard other places but that there's something about our students here. Um, there's a lot of gratitude, there's a lot of understanding, I think, of the privilege they have of being here and getting their degree and, you know, working with that population is really, really rewarding. So, you know, did I want-- I wanted to be that for other students moving forward. But I just loved the feel of being on a college campus. There's nothing like it. I now have a almost seven year-old and just, he's been able to be here since when, since he was born. And just knowing that-- he actually said the other night, he's like, “You go to college!” And I'm like, no, I don't go to col-- I'm not a college student, I work at a college. But he just, he associates college with me. And that's just, he's grown up in that environment. And then my mom also worked at USD for 30 years. So, I grew up going to campus with her and hanging out with college kids who, funny enough, seemed significantly older than they do now. So, it was just always a part of, you know, who I was. And so, I felt fortunate to find a place here. SS: And, now you're working as the Interim Director of Student Success Coaching, right? Can you walk us through your experiences as that at the job? JR: In the five weeks I've been in the position, <laugh>, um, it's… it's been, it's been really great. It's actually brought me back to I'd say my roots here because I started here at CSUSM overseeing orientation and really working with new students and first year students and all that. So, it's been fun in the short time I've been here to work with the team to really be creative about how we're gonna be engaging students who are coming in this next year. We're kind of in this two… two paths right now. It's the finish this semester, but then let's think big and creatively for the incoming class who're gonna be here in fall [20]23. So just really, learning from the team and thinking about how impactful the work that they're doing can really be for the retention success of the first-time freshman coming in. So, I don't know how much you know about the program but it serves first-year students who are not in an otherwise specialized program. So who are not in the Educational Opportunity Program who are not in TRIO [Student Support Services], who are not in CAMP [College Assistance Migration Program], um, ACE Scholars who are former foster youth, and then athletes or international students. So, we kind of capture the rest of the students, so don't really have a home, you know, and we wanna be that contact for them to kind of have that, that person they can go to for any questions that they have just about college. Um, so it's going well. I'm really enjoying it. I'm able to be creative and think through things and plan, which is something I love to do. 3 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 SS: So, I know you've only worked there for, you've only been working in this position for five weeks, but, um, could you tell me, tell me about, your leadership style and how you adapted to different situations and team members? JR: Yeah, I mean, I think I can relate it to, ‘cause I was in my old position as associate dean for almost seven years. So I've been in management leadership roles for over ten, twelve years now. But yeah it's been interesting because I joined a brand new team and so I really had the chance to kind of see how I was gonna adapt myself to them and how they were gonna receive me. And you know, it's funny, my first day I brought donuts and I said to them, ‘cause this team right now doesn't have a permanent space. They're literally working in a temporary space right now. So my first thing was how do I provide them with a level of, you know, kind of stability and structure. So even in an absence of a physical, permanent location, they can kind of feel that stability. SS: Mm-hmm. JR: But I came in that first day and I was like, so I haven't started a new job in a very long time. So I said, I just ask for your grace. But I'm as much as, as reasonable and appropriate, obviously it's just about the human first. These are all human beings who are working in a job and if you don't connect that piece and know what really matters to these people just in life, you're kind of missing the mark. So my goal was, and I told people ‘cause they wanted to meet with me, people outside my team wanted to meet with me very quickly to like talk about coaching and how I could collaborate. And I said, I want the first month to be me focusing on the team, getting to know the team, building those relationships. And so meeting with them individually and getting to know their strengths and kind of where there's opportunities. But I, I'd say I'm very, I'm all about personal connections and relationships and being collaborative. But I'm also good about being, like, sometimes we just kind of have to do things and we can't bring everyone into the fold, but I want to be as transparent as possible, communicate, provide, make sure people are in the loop. ‘Cause the less transparency there is, people then start to kind of worry and, you know create a narrative themselves. And so, but also humor. I like to approach things with humor. But Yeah. SS: 4 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 Well, sounds like you're the right person for the job. <laughter> Um, I'd like to ask, how have you leveraged your networks and relationships to support student development and success? JR: Oh gosh. SS: <laughs> JR: You know, it's… so this talk I just gave on Tuesday, the Division of Student Affairs does, um, they just started this series called Conversations with Leaders. And they finally, they asked, they asked me to speak and I'm like, okay, because part of me is like, “You want me to talk? Oh, that's fine!” So I talked a lot about this, but one of the benefits of my job, the job I had here when I first started with orientation: it's such just by the nature of the job, so highly collaborative that, that set me up for how I have literally done everything else in every other position I have here on campus. So, it had me working with event planning, with catering, with parking facilities, with advising, with, you know, leadership to student life. Like I work with every area on campus. And so through that, and I'm asking people to do things when I don't have any leadership or jurisdiction over them. And so you very quickly had to establish this relationship with people so you can-- ’cause all I would do in that job is ask people for favors. It's just, “I need you to do this. Can you help with this?” And so, and I fast forward now, there's one of the colleagues I've worked with, I met him my second day working, he works in advising and now I'm meeting with him about coaching and how to collaborate. And it's just, we laugh now that I'm like, talk about full circle and even doing training on some technology that we're gonna be implementing into the program. The person in IT [Information Technology], I worked with him when PeopleSoft was first coming on board. And so again, it's like “It's so fun to work with you again!” But, all that to say, it's been so key. And I think what has been very validating is when I've come into this job, the, the reactions I've gotten from people saying, “I'm so glad it's you and I can't wait to work with you in this role.” And that's been really affirming and I feel like because of my relationships, I've been able to, you know, there's credibility. I'm able to connect the coaches with people that they haven't connected with before. And, you know, if they have a question, I'm like, ”Let me just ask this person directly, like what the answer is.” They're like, “You can just do that?” I'm like, “Yeah, I just can chat whoever, or text whoever and vice versa.” So what I shared on Tuesday at the session was relationships is literally how I've gotten everything done here on this campus. It's, it's been so, so important. So I don't think I answered the question? SS: No, I love that. I love that. I'm so glad to see you [indistinguishable]. 5 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 JR: It's been, it's very sweet. I'm like, “Thank you!” It is very, because especially it's people that I've worked with forever and you know, and you just want people who are collaborative and willing to hear you out and you can laugh with. And I actually said to somebody the other day on the call, I said, “You don’t have to be diplomatic with me. Just tell me there’s clearly something there. So just like, tell me how you’re feeling so we can just deal with it.” And I think they appreciated it because with some people you have to be very diplomatic and be very discreet in how you're saying things. And I'm like, just, “I've been here long enough. Like, just tell me.” SS: [Indistinguishable] So I'd like to ask, how do you approach building rapport with students and understanding their unique, needs? JR: Yeah. Um, so I've had the benefit, I mean, since I've started here to work directly with students. So in my orientation job, I supervised volunteers who are on orientation team. I supervise students who were paid staff. Like those were my direct reports. So I was directly supporting and working with students. I think very similar with how I just work with anyone. I… it's so hard to describe something that I feel like just kind of happens, but I try to feel people out. You know, again, I approach a lot of things with humor, but obviously if this setting is not appropriate right, it's, you know, I'm able to kind of feel that out. I feel like I'm very intuitive. Like, I joke that my superpower is intuition because I can… I can tell-- if I know someone, I can tell like when they walk in a room and be like, there's something going on or what's happening, and I'll just kind of give a look and be like, you let me know what you need. Like, but I just, I stop and I make efforts. I get to know people and with students, that makes, that makes a difference. You know just being visible and being authentic. Providing, you know, sharing with-- with discretion of course, but like my own personal life and connections and here and there. Um, but you know, in my old- in my previous position, I was working with students in some really difficult circumstances ‘cause I was overseeing student conduct. I was overseeing students who were really in a difficult situation within their life. Whether it's, they've had very something very difficult happen to them and they're navigating it and how they're acting may not be the most appropriate in that setting. And just, um, I'm really good about student[s] coming in and being like, “What is going on? Like, what's, what's happening?” And also good about being like, what we're doing here isn't working. So how do we, let’s figure it out. So through the years I’ve gotten very good at being direct, but in a supportive manner? Um, some, well, supervisor joked with me, she's like, “I've never met somebody who could suspend a student, and in the same sentence, the student, thanks you.” <laugh> It's just, it's treating somebody as a human being. ’Cause, even if you're making a decision that's difficult, you can still do it with compassion. And humor too. I love to be sarcastic with students, like, especially O team [Orientation Team]. ‘Cause I still have a connection with the students who are on orientation team. ‘Cause my previous position, I was still in the same office and I would, they'd be laying down on orientation day and I'd just be like, “What are you 6 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 doing?” They’re like, “Oh, sorry Jennie!” And I'm like, “Come on,” <laugh> “Get your, get yourself together. Don't be laying down on the job.” So. SS: All right. Um, finally we're gonna get into the Cross-Cultural Center Questions. JR: I know this is like, this is getting us-- getting me warm. Okay. SS: I Really love that. Yeah. I love, like, you're just a person people can trust, a conduit of stability. JR: Conduit of stability. Oh, that's deep. Okay. SS: Could you, anyway, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? JR: Mm-hmm. What I remember about C3 is what we call it. Um, so when I first started, we had, and I imagine you're interviewing Alexis Monte Virgin, SS: Um, I'm not sure, she's not one I'm interviewing. JR: 7 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 Yeah, he was the coordinator when I first started. Um, he's like a president of a university now. It's amazing. So he was, he was the coordinator. The, the interaction I had with C3 when I started… because I oversaw orientation, the Student Life and Leadership Office at the time was this compacted space in, um, past known as Craven Hall. And so when I had on orientation days, we needed a place for Orientation Team to debrief the day. So we'd go up to C3. So that's how, that's what I remember it as. We'd go up to, we'd go to C, we'd be sitting on the floor. They had these big red couches, the red couches, the red chairs, and, it was small, but it was like, it was cozy. But yeah, we would just be having people sit on every surface possible and have our debriefing sessions there. And that's kind of my initial like, connection and, memory of how I first interacted. SS: This is a really big follow up, but, how did it shift over time? And did you have any role in this change? JR: Um, how it shifted? So, pretty quickly after I started, probably within the first year… and I think the plans had already been happening, was we were gonna be moving spaces. We were gonna be moving, offices to the first floor, no, to the third floor [of the Administration Building]. So I don't know if you're familiar or not- where Ace Scholars is now, where the Tukwut courtyard is? That's where Student Life and Leadership used to be. So we were already, when I first started, kind of in this future planning, dream big mode of what can Student Life and Leadership look like. But at that time, C3 was under the purview of Student Life and Leadership. So figuring out where and how that space - because it was very important to have a designated space - not have it be interweaved into our office, but have a community building location for the Center. So, I am sure that I was part of conversations because we were doing like kind of physical planning of the office, figuring out where everything was gonna kind of be. Um, because I was overseeing orientation, the space back then it was, I had this massive cubicle… Um and then around the corner through a door was where C3 was. So it was an office physically located like right off of the general Student Life and Leadership office. So, kind of talking through and brainstorming how we were gonna fit these red couches into that space. The space was kinda like a triangle. So doing the physical kind of puzzle pieces, you know, figuring out, um, you know, what to put on the walls and to create that space was definitely part of that conversation. So, but yeah I don't remember the nuances, but I would imagine because it was physically located there, we were all part of that “What does this look like?” conversation. So, um, how it's evolved since then? I mean, it was in that space. And then, if I remember correctly, I don't know what happened first, but a leadership program was created within Student Life and Leadership. It's called SLL [Student Life and Leadership]. And, the idea was to create a Tukwut leadership. Um, is it Tukwut Leadership Center? Yeah. I think I'm remembering this correctly. So what ended up happening, I think a space opened up in the Commons Building directly across from Commons 206, I think is the room. And so the Cross-Cultural Center moved up there and then the [TLC], that [Tukwut] Leadership [Center] space, um, kind of a space for leadership programs and student 8 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 organization meetings, stuff like that, moved into that triangle space on the third floor. So the space when it was up there was… I mean, it was massive. It was, I mean, comparatively speaking, I mean there was, there were windows, um, there was like a welcome desk. There were the couches again, I believe. We had at one point, I don't know what the timeframe was, but we had painted this like collective mural where everybody had like, it was a, program that they had brought to campus with a muralist. And they pretty much gave us different pieces to draw and paint. And that was put together, I think it's still up in the C3 here in the Student Union, I wanna say. But that was up in the space and it was just bigger and more open. And I wanna say it was up there until the Student Union opened, which I wasn't in as much conversation about because at that time I had transitioned more into the Data Students Office-ish role. So I wasn't gonna be under the same umbrella. But I remember the conversations about the physical space in the Student Union and, the offices and having a balcony and having programming space and all of that. And so you see this space now. I mean it's just, it's just beautiful. And it's with the balcony. And we've held some retreats in there and separate kind of staff meeting stuff. And Floyd's [Lai, Director of the CCC] great. He's always willing to host people. Um, so it's done a lot of trainings in there and stuff like that. So, that's kind of how the physical space has evolved. It's gone a long way from this sized office. SS: Thank you for that. JR: Yeah. SS: So many permutations. I love the red couches. JR: The red couches. I mean, that's the thing. And you probably will hear a consistent thing is this thread, the red couches is what C3 was. Like, that is what was, you know, the signature furniture there. SS: 9 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 Yeah. [Indistinguishable] JR: Oh, I'm sure you did. SS: Anyways, um, I knew that you were temporary temporal, sorry. Temporarily responsible for the CrossCultural Center during a transition between associate directors. Let me ask you, what led you to that position? JR: <laughs> SS: How’d that Happen? JR: I don't know. You know, I think, when you're in a-- when you're leading a department right? And somebody leaves, you're kind of like, okay, who could kind of pick things up and keep them moving while we're doing a search, right? I think the reason I was kind of a natural person to jump into that position and I felt very grateful to do it, was because with my work with New Student Programs and Orientation, I had collaborated with, with Sara Sheik, who remains one of my dearest friends, we had collaborated on the creation of a peer mentoring program. So it was a orientation, New Student Programs and Cross-Cultural Center, um, Multicultural Programs, collaborative program. Where we focused on pairing up first-year students from underserved, underrepresented populations. So really it was, I forget the criteria but, primarily students of color, first gen[eration] students who weren't part of other specialized programs, which now I think about it, I'm like, that's funny. That's the population I'm working with again. So, because we had worked so closely on that and had, we're really working with the staff on creating that program, and we interviewed and hired the mentors and we onboarded the mentees and all of that stuff. I think when Sara ended up leaving, I was a natural kind of… ‘Cause I had already been working with the, with the directors and coordinators of the other, of the other centers. I had already been working with the staff in C3 on this program. So, it was kind of a natural, you know, “Can you just help with this for a little bit?” And so that way we, you know, can have some consistency? Um, so it was a fun- SS: 10 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 Yeah, I tried to find how long you were in that position. I couldn't find it. How Long? JR: It was about a semest- I'd say it was about a semester, if not an entire semester. It was a couple of months in the spring semester of… oh gosh, I don't know what year it was. [20]10, [20]11, [20]12, around that time. Yeah, because it was before- ‘cause I moved into the Interim Assistant Dean of Students position in January, 2013. So I would say it was probably nine [2009] or [20]10 possibly, but it was only a couple months while we worked on, hiring and getting Floyd. So. SS: Perfect. I don’t wanna get too sidetracked but, I'd like, if you’re willing, I'd like you to tell me about your friendship with Sara [Sheikh]. How is she? JR: God. Is this what she started crying about when she was asking about relationships? SS: I’m not sure. <laughs> JR: Oh gosh, Sara, what a special human. Um, she texted me earlier. She's like, how was your interview? I'm like, it's at three. So I'll tell her that you all asked about her. Um, I remember interviewing her because when we would bring candidates on for our department, you know, we'd all have a chance to meet all the candidates and whatnot. She first off, she was not, how do? This is the diplomatic part of me. She was not allowed to reach her fullest potential here. Her skills and her talents were not as tapped as they possibly could have been here. She left before she should have. Um, but opportunities arose and she had to take it. But she is, we are so incredibly different, but she is a quiet, calm, intentional, just peaceful human being. Everything she does is with intention and purpose. And she's one of those people in my life, and I tell her all the time, and it's now her and her wife because they're, they're like cup filling people like you, you hang out with them, you spend time with them. And I'm like, okay, my soul, has been refilled. Um, not to get into politics, but this is, this is related the day of the, the day after the 2016 election, there were various emotions. And she happened to be on campus that day. She, Sara was here, this was years after she'd gone, but she happened to be bringing a group of students here to campus. And I told her, I said, you are the perfect and only person I would've wanted to interact with on this day. Because she's so good at just like being in a space with and just allowing space and asking intentional questions. But… 11 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 and then her laugh is just so unique. Like when you get her laughing, it's just like, there's no laugh like it. Um, but she just, the students so highly respected her, and everything that she touched here, again she did with intention and purpose. And she makes everyone feel like literally you're the only person in the room. She has nothing else to distract her. It's a very intentional, like, you're hearing it a, a pattern like purposeful and intentional. She's just a good, good person. So, I remember, ‘cause I tend to talk a lot and, um, and this isn't fair ‘cause you're asking me to talk, so there's no, there's no judgment here. But I remember we were at a, we were doing a staff retreat and I had to get used to that. she would process. So, you know, somebody would ask a question and a prompt, and we had to give space for Sara because Sara needed time to kind of put all of the thoughts together and process and whatnot. And so, I've always taken that with me. But, we've, you know, she was at my wedding. I was at her wedding. She met my son when he was, you know just after he was born. I've had the privilege to, I was there the day that, they officially adopted their son. I was taking pictures and just, just one of those people, you know? Just one of those people in your life that I'm grateful for our relationship here. And just the connection and it, I, it’s one of those things where I’m like, thank you for allowing me to stay in your life. Because there’s days where I’m like, what do I bring to you? <laughs> Because she's just so fantastic. But she would just kind of, she would brush that off and be like you’re nuts. So she's special. SS: I love that. That's incredibly great [indistinguishable]. That's amazing. I know we're in the little sidetrack here, but- JR: No, it's fine. it's all connected. SS: It’s all oral history, its all about people, so. JR: It Is. SS: Back to the Cross-Cultural Center. Could you tell me about a favorite memory? Or not even a favorite, just a memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center? JR: 12 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 Hmm. <laugh>. SS: This is a little stumped [one]. JR: No, it's not stumped. I just, there's certain things that it's like, I just immediately remember and I'm like, it doesn't have to be super deep, right? SS: Mm-hmm. JR: I remember there was a period of time, I don't know, I think it was before Sara left, but, um, there were ti-- I don't know if she was out, but, we needed to have physical presence in the Center. And so each of the SLL staff would sign up for shifts to sit at the front desk of the center. And, I remember, I love NSYNC. It's a boy band. Yeah. And I remember I was listening to Pandora at the time, it was Pandora. And I told them, I was up there, I had like a morning shift and I said, “If I am here at my shift, you are hearing NSYNC and boy bands.” And it just became a thing. They’re like, “Oh, Jennie's here.” And I would just play that music. And, it was, that's the first thing that kind of came to mind. It was just kind of funny. They were like, “Oh God, Jenny's on shift.” But it was cool because it got us physically out of our own offices and I looked forward to that, you know, physical, that physical location change. But then to interact with students in different ways. Um, God, there's a lot of memories. I met a student, and I won't say his name for obvious reasons you'll learn shortly, but I first met him in C3 and I remember him ‘cause he would walk in and he was always in military gear, but like not like he, he was like within the military, he was always just wearing like military-grade-SS: Camo? JR: Yeah. He had like a, this military-grade backpack, like, the combat boots and just, and he was just the sweetest, kindest person. And I, that's he, that was the first time I met him was in the C3. And he would come in there all the time and that's where he would hang out and we would talk about life. And he quickly disclosed to me that he had dealt with some significant mental health challenges. And just, my brother has also dealt with some stuff and so he and I were connecting on that and just talking about life and making those connections. And I remembered he had gone away for a bit and then he had returned and he was, he was having some challenges as only a couple years ago. Unfortunately he passed away last year. But I always remember just that connection I had with him. 13 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 And I realized, you know, a lot of other people on campus had that connection with him. He was just, he was just this unique soul. He was like an old soul. He dealt with so much adversity with mental and physical health, but he just always came with just a presence of kindness and just sh- like sheer gratitude. And when I… when I changed, when I moved outta my office a couple weeks ago, ‘cause I was in that office for nine years. One of the things I was, I was cleaning this stuff out and I found a thank you card from him. And I was like, wow, what a gift. And he had, it was after I was out of the role within relation to [C3], but it's a couple years ago when I helped him with some stuff and it just said, “Thank you for helping me in one of the difficult times in my life.” and I was just like, God, what a gift you just gave me. So, um, I don't know if I would've had the chance to meet him had I not been in that, you know, in that physical space because I know that was a space of safety for him, which was I know the case for a lot of students, so. SS: Wow. JR: [Mm-hmm] <laugh>. SS: Sorry about that. JR: I know it’s tough and yeah. Yeah. SS: [indistinguishable] It's remembering NSYNC Radio, at least. <laugh> JR: NSYNC Radio. But I think even with him, I still smile, you know, and um, yeah, ‘cause again, he just exuded gratitude and it, um, yeah. So mm-hmm. SS: Well on a lighter note! Uh. 14 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 JR: <laugh>, I know, sorry take these down. SS: No, no, no. It's perfect. It's perfect. I know you only worked there for a semester, but how might have your work at the Cross-Cultural Center helped you develop as a professional? JR: Massively. I mean, you know, as a, as a White woman, straight CIS woman, I bring privilege with me and I always am trying to learn and understand that what my physical presence may bring depending on the space and I'm at right? And, the majority of the students who, who hung out in that space were, were students of color, primarily students who were of Asian Pacific Islander descent. But, it was something for me to be able to-- when I first got asked to kind of fill in the role, part of me was like I didn't want my own identity to be a detriment to their development. But I realize now me even just knowing that I think <laughs> makes a difference. That I'm aware of how my identity impacts those around me. But there were some experiences that came up that I remember we were doing, we were doing some activities… Oh we were doing a, an event and it was around, um, Judaism, and I don't remember what the content of the workshop was, but Hillel, which is still an active organization for serving and supporting Jewish students, but obviously non-Jewish students can be involved. There was some concern about us offering this workshop and possibly providing false information. And it was one of those things that in the moment you can get very defensive, right? You can be like, no, you know, we're not, we're not trying to do anything to whatever. But what it had me do was, you need to stop for a second and be-- again, the intentionality. It really taught me just you to think of anyone who could be potentially impacted, but also leveraging the voices that you have and collaborate and pull them in. Um, ‘cause why wouldn't have we have collaborated with folks on campus who live that on, on a daily basis and could provide some additional you know, but I was advising students at this time and the student was just doing what he was told. He was creating these workshops kind of in a vacuum. But it was a really good lesson to, again, do things as intentionally as possible. Even if it means you have to move the workshop a few weeks later, if it means we're doing it the right way, let's do that. So that was a really good lesson and I think it ended up being fine. We ended up collaborating with them. Um, and then just…Trying to think. I mean, just working with all different types of people and interacting with students I probably normally wouldn't have just because they weren't involved in Orientation Team. Like this, this particular pocket of students who worked as student assistants, within all the other centers because there was kind of like this collective team they had of- at the time the Women's Center, the Pride Center, and the Cross-Cultural Center, those three centers; our staffs would get together on a frequent basis. And there’s folks from other staffs that I have connected with that I'm still in, contact 15 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 with that I probably would never have interacted with. And to be honest, they probably would never have even-- based on who I am and how I present and probably would never have even interacted with me. And so, it was a great opportunity to kind of make those connections. But, um, I learned some more things just about program planning. We, we planned some pretty big events and just again, how to honor history and culture and doing it in a meaningful manner while advising students who just wanna get things done. And it's like, how do you balance that? So that was, um, that was a good experience. SS: Yeah. That's great. Um, making connections. using your voices. Moving on, could you describe, and this doesn't have to be with the Cross-Cultural Center ‘cause I know you worked a pretty short time over there. Could you describe a project or initiative you with that you are particularly proud of, or were a part of necessarily? JR: Hmm. Geez, just so many-SS: <laughs> JR: I think I can discuss the peer mentoring program. Although it was short-lived, I think for what it was. It’s one of those programs that no matter how good of a program you have, if you don't have the resources to continue it, you can only do so much. And so… but it was, it was really cool because it was kind of a brainchild of Sara and then she came to me and said, “You work with new students, can we just do this connection?” And so we really got a chance to dig into the benefits of peer mentoring and we kind of, we created it really from the ground up. We recruited current students to be peer mentors, created that training for them. And because of my work with O-Team [Orientation Team], who is solely volunteers, you know, I had a training with them, a weekly training with them on, in the spring semester, and then we had retreats. And so I was able to really bring that component. Um, and then what Sara brought was really the, the pieces of how-- why we're serving this particular population because there is an equity gap that our white students are persisting at a higher rate and graduating at a higher rate than our students of color. So, and then there was research that showed that peer mentoring specifically helps to close-- is one of the most beneficial components that a student could have to have a peer to peer connection. So it was really fun to work with her on that and really create the curriculum, create the, the criteria for the mentors. And then I remember we had spreadsheets and we were divvying up the, the caseloads of like who, or not the caseloads-- of like who would be matched with certain mentors and stuff like that. 16 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 Um, and so that was really fun. And then once Sara left and Floyd came on, um, I don't think it was a while, but he and I had the idea to do like an overnight retreat with this program. So what we did was we had them all come together. So we've had the mentors and the mentees, this is before school even started, had them on a bus. We drove up to Julian [California] and we did kind of team-building activities. And it was really-- I remember we had this, we wanted to do a ropes course and we had, there's a ropes course at this camp. And I remember Floyd and I were brought in probably three days before the retreat. And our boss at the time said, we can't spend the money on this. And we're like, “What are we supposed to do?” So then he and I just like hunkered down and created like our own like, internal team-building exercises, but we're like, “What the hell are we gonna do?” But we figured it out. What's funny now is I think it was that year, one of the mentees is now on my coaching staff. SS: <laughs>. JR: So I've known him forever and it's really cool. And then funny enough we, well it's not funny but, we had to buy a new car this past weekend, track me here-- and I, we go to San Diego County Credit Union because that, we had literally just paid our car off on Thursday and that's when our car died. So we went back to San Diego County Credit Union. Said we wanted to get a loan with you again. And as we’re meeting with this loan officer, she’s like, where do you work? I told her, she’s like, “I knew you look familiar!” And my husband's always like, “I swear to God, she knows people everywhere.” And she said, “I was part of the peer mentoring program” and I remembered her ‘cause she was assigned to, I would say was our best mentor ‘cause some of our mentors left a lot to be des-- like, “Can you talk? Can you touch base with your students?” But this one -- and her last name was Ruiz as well -- and so we connected on that, but it was so cool to see this student who had been in the peer mentoring program and just being like, “I remember you!” And it was a nice little reunion. Um, but I thought it was a really cool framework to create. Um, unfortunately the resources just weren't able to keep it going. So. SS: Yeah. That's cool that you saw your, your one mentor—[indistinguishable] JR: It was so funny that, “I know you look familiar!” When I said I worked at campus, it was funny. SS: 17 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 Yea I Know plenty of people working in the university space currently working with limited resources. Yeah, it's definitely challenging. JR: It is. Especially when it's such meaningful work like that. I mean, it's literally to support, but now I'm in a space again to be able to do that same kind of work, which is exciting. SS: Mm-hmm. What is the significance of having a space that champions underrepresented students? JR: Um, I mean so much. And with underrepresented students, obviously that's such a large umbrella, right? And then every group and, and community that makes up that term needs different things and there's an intersectionality and all that and it can-- but you know what it really comes down to, it's about equity, right? And it's interesting having conversations with people who don't quite get it and there's people who make comments sometimes it's like, “What about a space for us?” And I'm like, do you understand that any-- I can go somewhere and see someone who looks like me and understands my experience. I mean, generally speaking, pretty easily, if you have a student who comes to this campus and does not see anyone who looks like them during the day, does not have a faculty member teaching them who is from the same culture or community, to be able to have a space that a student knows they can go to. To have an experience that just physical and mental and emotional safety on a daily basis, for them to do homework and define that community will only help them to be better in all aspects of their life. That's why programs like EOP [Educational Opportunity Program] and ACE Scholars and those programs exist because they're-- every student should have access to the same level of services, right? First and foremost. But, if you look at certain populations and certain areas where students are from, they then need that much more support to get them to the same place that more majority populations are. So I think providing spaces like this is one step in providing that, that equity. Um, because I can imagine a student coming here and I've never really experienced it, but being like, “I don't see myself here.” They're not gonna feel an emotional connection to the campus. They’re not gonna feel like going to class because why would they care? I mean, there's some students who inherently they just have this intrinsic motivation and they'll go to school and it's fine. But you wanna have that, that community and sense of belonging. That'll just make it that much more just robust of an experience for them. And the community pieces is massive. So spaces like this, if done well, and intentionally and has good leadership and the resources it needs. Because the thing is these centers-- and people joke a lot of times are placed in the basements of buildings, they're placed in inaccessible areas that people don't necessarily know about. If you do it well and put 'em in high traffic areas like the USU [University Student Union], have staffing and resources to really support those 18 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 students, then it goes well. But just historically spaces like that are just under-resourced and which is an issue. So. SS: Yeah. Um, I guess in that same sort of area of, doing it right. Are there any aspects of your time at the Cross-Cultural Center that you would've approached differently if given the chance? JR: Mm. I, when I came in, because again, there was this like conglomerate of the three spaces. I would, and it was a really short period of time, but I got kind of sucked into their drama <laughs>, and I wish I would've come in and I don't know if I had fully found my voice yet like if I, knowing what I know now about things and haven't gone through when I've gone through now, I feel like I would be able to go in and be able to really help the students to be very… To, you know to collaborate, but not necessarily be dependent on, I think, I wanted to collaborate with these other folks but I think there was almost a sense of like I had to defer to what they wanted kind of thing. And so probably it would be fun to go back in there now knowing what I know now and see how things would be different. But, I don't know. I think that the state of where I was at the time, you learn based on where you're at in life. And I got lessons, from it. I, um, there were-- I worked with my first student who I was aware of being undocumented at the time and just learning about that process and learning about that impact for her and just, I mean we literally, no one knew but she would, she would submit kind of a fake time sheet every month just to have this sense of normalcy and that nobody would question. And just, that was kind of my first, kind of opportunity to, to work with students experiencing those challenges. So. I can't think of anything glaring. I was still I think pretty early and young in my profession. Um, so, there's still days where I’m like, “You wanted me to be in there?” But, it worked out. But I think those are the things I can, I can think of. SS: That’s good. JR: Yeah. SS: More experience. JR: More experience. It’s all, it’s all experience. Yes. 19 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 SS: Well, as we're wrapping-- winding down, I know you mentioned before that a lot of people that would go to the Cross-Cultural Center were um-- JR: Asian Pacific Islander. SS: Oh yeah. Asian Pacific Islanders. JR: <laughs> Yes. SS: I, a lot of questions are raised around like these cultural centers, like the Black Student Center and, the Latinx Center and stuff like that. And should there be an Asian student center? Should there be a white student center? What's your response to that? JR: <laughs> That's my response. <laughs> Um, I mean, I think I mentioned it before about the purpose of these spaces. Everyone, every student should have access to support and resources on our campus. I do not think inherently based on the setup of society, students at particular demographics are lacking spaces where they see others like them. SS: Mm-hmm. JR: Like I said, things need to be, do, done well. You need to have the staffing. I think it's always going to be met with some dissonance because there's gonna always be people who just don't get it. But the people who are the ones traditionally, and I know there's people who may identify as the same within that center and say, I don't think we should have, you know, separation or whatnot. But it depends where 20 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 people are at on their identity development. And when you kind of go through identity development, you get to the point where you're comfortable enough in your space and your skin and your whatever to understand that everyone else is in a different space and that's okay. And that some students may be okay with it and some students may really need that space to be successful. And again, if having a Black Student Center allows one black man who goes to school here to have a physical space that he can go to feel safe, then I think that's been successful because otherwise where would he find that here? Right. I think the people who ask those questions about, why don't we have this? Why don't we have this? And it's like, I don't-- there's gonna always be people who ask those questions and they don't have an answer for it. They don't have anything to kind of back up, you know, you ask the question of, “Why do you think we need that space?” And they don't have any, you know, there's no research to back up the answers that they're hoping to get. It's just, they're there-- The questions are just being asked, I think to kind of stir things up. But again, the caveat is: you don't wanna just do it to do it to check off boxes. You need to do it as intentionally as possible. And I'm far from being an expert on how to implement that. But if you don't have the resources and don't have the institutional support, you're only gonna be, you're set up to fail. SS: Mm-hmm. Perfect. Great. Um, yeah, I like that answer. If it helps. It's worth it. JR: Yep. Mm-hmm. SS: To conclude connecting to that question, uh, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces? JR: I would imagine, I'll say Floyd specifically ‘cause he has been the longest-tenured, um, director in there now. [Floyd] is probably been asked how he's gonna be-- What is the Cross-Cultural Center? How does the Cross-Cultural Center kind of stand apart from the other identity centers? I think with the CrossCultural Center, although other centers talk about intersectionality and you know, and that sort of thing, I think what the Cross-Cultural Center can really focus on is really that multiculturalism, how all the different identities intersect and kind of can help to facilitate those conversations and understandings and that sort of thing. I would imagine there's been conversations about-- do we have a space for, you know, our APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American] students? Because that tends to be the space that, that population tends to spend time. 21 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 �JENNIE RUIZ TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-07 I think, there were conversations way back in the day where, ‘cause they're Kamalayan Alliance, I don't know if it's a really big organization now, but Kamalayan Alliance was a massive student organization back in the day, and that was primarily the students who made up the space in the center and some people had issues with it. It's kind of like but this is not supposed to be just for Filipino students, but it's like, who defines that? You know? It depends on who has a connection here and who feels connected. So, I would imagine-- I know there's some campuses who have, I mean, tons of different affinity spaces and identity centers. And I'm sure there's gonna be conversation about what, what is C3’s role in that? Um, I don't know the answer I'm not privy to those conversations, but I'm sure the questions have come up of what is the space for this type of physical and identity space in the midst of adding all these different, identity spaces? Other campuses do it. It's just, I'm sure there's a lot of conversations about what is the vision and mission and kind of, where's it gonna go, which can be exciting. Um, but I'm sure there's also some pressure to be like, who are we? What is our, what is our mission here on campus? But, um, the current leadership can figure it out. He's [Floyd Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center] good. He's good. SS: Yeah, he is good. JR: He is good. SR: Anyways, thank you so much for coming here and— JR: This was Fun. <laughs>. I don’t know what I expected, But yeah. SS: Anyway, I’m gonna end the recording. JR: Okay. 22 TRANSCRIBED BY SETH STANLEY 2023-04-23 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ruiz, Jennie. Interview transcript April 7, 2023 Description An account of the resource Oral history interview of Jennie Ruiz for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project on April 7, 2023. Biographical information about Jennie, how she started working for California State University San Marcos, her leadership and networking skills. Jennie’s friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu and its impact on her. Her experience running the Cross-Cultural Center, and her thoughts about its role at CSU San Marcos. This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jennie Ruiz Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-07 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Student success Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Jennie Ruiz Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RuizJennie_StanleySeth_2023-04-07_transcript Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Madeleine Meyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Diana Saldivar OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SaldivarDiana_StanleySeth_2023-04-14.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Saldivar, Diana. Interview April 14th 2023. SC027-39 01:04:02 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance ; California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated ; San Diego State University ; California State University. Multicultural Programs ; Filipino Americans ; Student success ; Human rights Diana Saldivar Madeleine Meyer Video SaldivarDiana_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-14 1:|14(13)|32(10)|47(3)|59(10)|73(9)|92(14)|104(3)|133(8)|148(11)|164(15)|178(14)|202(11)|230(3)|259(11)|284(3)|297(6)|316(10)|334(4)|348(6)|363(4)|382(15)|404(11)|427(4)|443(13)|458(4)|481(6)|503(9)|523(11)|543(4)|554(3)|571(13)|584(12)|596(7)|615(16)|630(12)|644(6)|654(15)|682(5)|703(11)|717(13)|728(8)|744(4)|765(7)|776(17)|794(9)|812(9)|828(6)|848(11)|873(9)|888(8)|900(8)|919(13)|934(12)|949(15)|971(16)|990(13)|1009(8)|1031(9)|1046(18)|1065(6)|1080(6)|1103(11)|1121(9)|1148(6)|1152(15) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4ba35a3be1f188bd69a1d18341a5b736.mp4 Other video english 0 Childhood and Education Saldivar describes how she moved a lot and never had a solid group of friends due to her father's career in the military. She explains how she struggled navigating college as a first generation student. Saldivar started out at Palomar Community College, then California State University San Marcos and later moved onto San Diego State University for graduate school. Saldivar explains how she graduated during the recession and no one was hiring so she felt discouraged and had to take on volunteer work to maintain work experience. She also discusses what life was like growing up with parents who immigrated from the Philippines and China. Palomar Community College ; California State University San Marcos ; San Diego State University ; immigrant ; VA bill ; Military ; first generation ; childhood 0 780 Finding the Cross-Cultural Center and Getting Involved In Associated Students Incorporated Saldivar explains how the Cross-Cultural Center was very small and almost hidden amongst the campus. She explains how faculty encouraged her to apply for a position for Associated Students Incorporated (ASI, student governance). Saldivar explains how the Cross-Cultural Center exposed her to faculty that looked like her and represented her despite the campus being predominately white. Cross-Cultural Center ; Associated Students Incorporated ; representation ; identity 0 1205 Working and building up the CCC Saldivar explains how she started working at the Multicultural Center (now called Cross-Cultural Center) and helped to build the foundations of the center. She explains how in only three years the center was able to grow and become recognized on campus. The center was working with various other campus organizations to share resources and create appropriate spaces for students. Saldivar explains how the center impacted people within their identity. multi-cultural center ; start up ; building ; Pride Center ; LGBT ; Womens Center ; Asian Center ; Cross-Cultural Center 0 1690 CCC Began Growing Saldivar discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center began to expand and its new location allowed the center to become more visible to students. Programing for the center was created such as the Peer Educator Program, Multicultural Mondays and Dinner Dialogues. These programs provided a space and opportunity for students to explore, understand and discuss identities. Peer Educator Program ; Multicultural Mondays ; Dinner Dialogues ; identities ; representation ; LGBTQ ; Religion 0 2282 How the CCC Helped Saldivar Saldivar feels like her courses helped her identify who she was and understand how her background has shaped her as an individual, but the CCC is what allowed her to put those realizations into practice. The CCC allowed her to realize she must live intentionally and how to really make an impact in peoples lives. The CCC provided her with the skills she would use later on in her career. 0 2744 How Saldivar Met Her Husband Saldivar explains how she and Randy, her husband, met through the Cross-Cultural Center and ended up getting married. Saldivar reflects on the programs that she and Randy worked on for the CCC. Husband ; San Diego State ; University of San Diego ; University of Southern California ; Filipino American Organization 0 3191 Working Dynamics Between Saldivar and Her Husband Saldivar explains how she and Randy maintained a professional relationship while working at the center. She describes how they compliment one another and help one another become successful in their work. Kamalayan Alliance 0 3399 Asian Pacific Islander First Graduating Ceremony Saldivar discusses how the CCC helped the Asian Pacific Islander Club recognize their first graduating class. She explains how the lack of a budget forced the CCC and Asian Pacific Islander Club to get creative. Saldivar expresses her gratitude towards the university for always listening to the wants and needs of their students. Asian Pacific Islander Club ; Asian Pacific Islander graduation 0 3557 Impact of CCC on Others Saldivar discusses impact of the CCC on students and their academic success. She expresses the joy it brings to her when she sees how much her and her community has grown due to the center. Filipino ; student success 0 3723 Role of CCC Saldivar discusses how much the center has grown and how its programs are focused on the current needs of the students. 0 Video Diana Saldivar is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Communications, Sociology and Ethnic Studies. Saldivar worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2004-2007 and was also involved in the Asian Pacific Islander Student Society, Kamalayan Alliance, and with Associated Students Incorporated (student government). In her interview, Saldivar discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center provided her with a sense of belonging on campus and served as a second home. Saldivar explains how the center provided her with lifelong friendships, skills and connections that has helped her become the person she is today. Saldivar recounts how the CCC provided a safe space, allowing for conversations with others that are often deemed controversial, and how the center encouraged those to constantly seek knowledge. Madeleine Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Diana Saldivar at California State University San Marcos for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Friday, April 14th, 2023, and the time is eleven fifty-seven. I'd like to start with asking you a little bit about yourself. Where did you grow up and what was your early life like? Diana Saldivar: Ooh, that's a long question (both laugh). That's gonna be a long answer. How long do we have? Um, I actually was born here in San Diego, California on a military, one of the military bases. I don't know exactly which one. My mom forgot to give me those details, but all I know is that the hospital is now torn down. So I know it doesn't exist anymore, but I assume it was either 32nd or one of the Navy bases down south. Because I didn't know, we lived in North Park for a little bit, from there, because my dad's military career, we moved several places across, the West Coast. So I've been to Fallon, Nevada, San Francisco, Treasure Island, back to San Diego, Hawaii. And then once my dad retired, he retired at Camp Pendleton here in Oceanside. So I ended up being around probably fourteen, fifteen (years old). So right in the middle of my middle school, high school years is when I came to kind of be more of a, a transplant to San Diego. So--it was definitely still different from me, (laughs) for me from moving from San Francisco to a really big, you know, metropolitan city with a lot of diversity to Oceanside, which was very (laughs), in development still. Meyer: Um-Hm. Saldivar: So that was a big challenge. And then also because of me moving around to so many schools, I think I went to eight or nine schools by the time I was fifteen. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: So it wasn't like I grew up having solid friends, grew up with them during grade school and things like that. It was always a lot of transition. So me entering high school, middle school when everybody has friends since they were like second grade in kindergarten, that was very different for me. Fortunately, I was able to find my own community. I was able to find other, military transplants. So we just kind of found each other in a sense. So, I ended up graduating high school at Vista High, in 2000, oh (both laugh) that's so long ago. We just even had our 20th, annual, reunion. It was delayed because of the pandemic (COVID-19). Meyer: Right Saldivar: So it was 21(st annual reunion), which made it feel so much worse (laughs). So I graduated in Vista High and, I didn't really know what to do. I mean, I was kind of one of those, I was a first generation, what do you call it? Immigrant child who, my parents did some college, but it was more like vocational college. They didn't really understand the full traditional college career, how to get there. So I had a lot of high school counselors. They kind of helped with, you know, what are your thoughts about going into, you know, college, have you thought of, you know, applying and things like that. And it never really crossed my mind. I was just kind of going as it goes. But I ended up applying to San Diego State, Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos and one other college. Because of my dad's military career, he was able to get the GA or, the VA Bill (Veterans Affairs, often referred as GI Bill). So I was able to use it as his dependent, which was nice because affording college was just out of the question and having that nice little package was so good (laughs). So I had to stay in California, so I was very limited to where I could go. And I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I was like, you know, “Let's just go to Cal State San Marcos. It's close to home (laughs).” You know, I didn't really understand the whole, let's research and let's look at this and that and things. I'm just like, okay, I'll just go to college and put, I don't know, well non-major and stuff like that. And then, you know, I ended up being here, started 2000, dropped--got kicked out (both laugh) 2002 because I didn't meet the math requirement (laughs). I'm not sure if they still have that here, but as an undergrad you had to meet an English and math requirement. I definitely met the English because I did IB (International Baccalaureate) English, like honors English, but I was terrible at math, and I don't know why I was taking math classes at seven o'clock in the morning (Meyer laughs). So that was terrible setup for me. So then I ended up going to Palomar Community College for a couple years to get myself back on track, doing the, IGETC (Intersegmental General Education Transfer Curriculum) program. And probably by 2004 I found myself back here at Cal State San Marcos, you know, with a brand new focus, more (of an) understanding of what I wanted to do. Finally declared a major and two minors, like a crazy person. Like why would I wanna be the school more? I don't know. I ended up then graduating in the winter, or yet fall of 2007, but I walked, spring 2008, which was great because it felt really nice to kind of be able to represent my family, kind of being the first gen(eration) going across. And then it was like, what do I do now? And then I ended up going to San Diego State for my grad program, but that in itself wasn't even planned. Meyers: Um-Hm. Saldivar: This is kind of how my life has been. Meyers: Yeah. Saldivar: It just doesn't get planned. It just happens. Which is probably not a great (laughs) way to live life sometimes, unless you have a goal. It was my mentor, Dilcie Perez from the Cross-Cultural Center, or actually just kind of the student activities area and where she looked at me and she's like, “Did you ever think about making this a career?” And I was like, “What, I could get paid for this?” (both laugh). So that was kind of pretty much how it all happened in, the three months before I was graduating, I went to a info session about higher education programs and kind of figuring out that you could work with students, these are things that you could do to build your, your career in, in the collegiate setting. And I was like, oh, okay. I'll apply to of course, a California state school because that's how I can afford (laughs). And you know, still on my dad's, VA. Ended up getting in the San Diego State program. And so right after, the fall semester, I had a semester off because of the way that the, the, the calendar, schedule was laid out. So I had some work experience. So I ended up getting some work experience at the--oh my gosh. St. Paul? No, not St. Paul's. Oh my gosh. Father Joe's. Oh, my I’m like why I’m saying St. Paul's. Meyer: Yeah. Yeah. Saldivar: The Father Joe's Villages. I ended up, being a vocational counselor there for a couple months. And then I moved on to do my grad program at San Diego State. And then this was the longest title ever. Let me, let me see if I can get it right. Masters (laughs) of Arts in Higher Education with a Specialization in Student Affairs Administration. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: Yeah (both laugh). You should see what it looks like on the degree (Meyer laughs). It's like, my gosh, what did it say? I'm like, just higher ed. Just, just say higher ed. Meyer: Just put et cetera at the end. Saldivar: Right. And (both laugh) everything's an acronym. So yeah, I went to San Diego State, got do-- done, and then I graduated in 2010, when the economy was just (blows raspberry, gives thumbs down gesture). Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: So it was a terrible time-- Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: To graduate because education was literally redlined. Nobody was hiring. People were, either being laid off or decreased (furloughed) and things like that. So I, it was, it was a difficult time because, you know, I grew up with that mentality, especially that, first gen mentality that if you go to college and you get these degrees, you're going to get a good job at the end. You're gonna get paid well, you're gonna be able to buy a house and all these other things, which is a very, you know, generational (laughs), you understand. We're like, yeah, here, we're now still paying rent. Meyer: Yeah Saldivar: So it was, it was very, it was very humbling. At the same time it was, it was an eye-opener to the reality of like, this is not really the American dream that I was fed to believe in a sense. If that'll, you know, if you're educated, you'll be much more successful, whatever that looks like in that terminology. I would say at least, probably 80 to 85% of our class did not end up in higher ed. Meyer: Um-Hm. Saldivar: They only got in if they were already doing an internship and then was already kind of luckily able to find funding to continue that internship into a part-time or, uh, what do you call it? A contracted job? So it wasn't even like they were full on (jobs). It was, you know, you're, we could, we could help keep you on for another year. And it was like yearly basis until they finally, leveled out and then got the full-time benefit stuff. So that's what happened to a lot of my, cohort, either they all ended up going home to where they, came from and then going into nonprofit or some type of K-12 (Kindergarten-twelfth grade) education prep program. So we tried to find jobs, or I definitely tried to find jobs that could still, you know, help hone in my skills that are transferrable to get back into higher ed. But it took a long time to do that. So, I mean that's kind of more of my, educational professional side (laughs) about me. I guess, on a more personal side, I'm the first born of two. So I have a younger brother, two years younger than me. I, you know, grew up, like I said, all over the place. My parents are, my mom is from the Philippines and then my dad's Chinese. So he's from China, Hong Kong. They both immigrated to the states probably when they were fifteen, sixteen. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: Yeah. So they were like teenagers. So they still kind of had deep cultural ties to their homelands, but then also was at that point in where they were at school, where they could become more acclimated to their American culture and things like that. So I kind of, I wanted to be, say like, I'm one and a half, two generation kind of in a sense where they understood some of, you know, American norms and values and things like that, but at the same time had that duality of, how do we stay culturally close to ourselves and things like that. So it, growing up I still kind of, you know, butt heads in, in a sense (laughs) with my parents. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: Like, well, that's not how I feel doing that now. Meyer: Yeah Saldivar: You know? I mean, even my grandma had immigrated later on and so, I had a lot of my family in the Bay Area. The San Francisco, San Jose, or Stockton area. And my Chinese grandma, R.I.P. (Rest In Peace) love her to death. She was very, very strict Chinese ma--grandma. And where she tried to marry me off so (laughs), I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. (laughs). I mean, I was too young to understand what was going on, but at least my mom was like, “We are not doing that!” Meyer: Oh my God. Saldivar: Yeah (laughs). Meyer: How, how old were you? Saldivar: I was probably about seven or eight when my grandma was grooming-- Meyer: Oh-- Saldivar: Me to, you know, prepare for like, have you met this child? Or, you know, I have a friend's son who's on my oh. What the heck? (Meyer laughs) No! Meyer: Your mom is like, “We're not, (both talking) we’re not doing this—" Saldivar: Yeah, exactly. We're not exactly (laughs). Meyer: Oh my gosh. Saldivar: Yeah. It was kind of neat because my, my--the thing is because my dad is a firstborn male of the family. So he's spoiled and everything and oh, since I'm the first daughter, you know, we have to make sure she's married off well. And then my, my brother who's actually considered the first-born male of the firstborn son gets so much better benefits and perks than I do. So even though I'm the first born (unintelligible) oh no, you're a female. But my son--my brother still gets like, everything. Meyer: And he's the baby. So it's, yeah. (Saldivar laughs). Oh man. Saldivar: Yeah. So that's kind of just a little bit about me. I know that was, a real deep dive into a lot of stuff. Meyer: No, that's great. That's great. Um, yeah, I, well that answers my question about your educational journey too. Which is perfect. Saldivar: There you go. Meyer: Um, and then I was just going to ask, how did you first become aware of the Cross-Cultural Center when you came onto Cal State San Marcos’ campus? Saldivar: That’s a, (laughs) that's actually a really good question. Um— Meyer: How did you wander in? Yeah. Saldivar: Yeah. And I think that's always the funny thing is people don't know about it. I think what was hard was when I was here on campus and versus like how it is now, it wasn't visible. Meyer: Oh OK. Saldivar: You--it was not even like an indicator. There was no signage, there was not like, how the Veterans Center is literally right there in the middle of campus or, you know, the Student Center is right there. The, the Cross-Cultural Center, or what it was called formerly is the Multicultural Center was in a back office kind of like this. It was hidden in Craven Hall (now Administrative Building), fourth floor way in. So when you walk in, it's not right there. It's like you have to go halfway through, then down this tiny corridor and then it's a door. Meyer: Um-Hm. Saldivar: And it's, you think, okay, either it's a janitor’s closet or it's where they keep all the, um, what do you call it, the computer stuff and everything— Meyer: Yeah Saldivar: Like a storage closet. You're just like, “Where is this place? Am I in the right place?” And (they’re) like, “Keep going down. (laughs) You're following the right area”. Like we had signs and arrows and everything. In different bright colors to make it feel like it's okay, (Meyer laughs) it's a safe space. You're coming to, you're know, we're not going to kidnap you or anything. (both talking) Meyer: This is not a meat locker. Saldivar: Right, exactly. You're going to make it out alive. Meyer: Yeah, yeah. Saldivar: The way I ended up getting there, funny enough was I was just going through--when I returned back to school, my focus was just get my degree and go, you know, I wasn't even thinking about being involved, you know, student life, things like that. That wasn't even on my radar, until I started taking community, what do you call it? Sociology classes. So my major was Communications and I minored in Sociology and Ethnics Studies and my Ethnic Studies teacher --I am terrible with names (laughs). I see her face Dr. Elsie, (whispers: Elsie), no, Elsa, Elsie (Dr. Sharon Elise), something like that. Meyer: Uh-Hm. Salvidar: And she--was talking about, you know, race and, racial identity and things like that. And so she was very involved in the school, and something came up in where there’s a position for ASI, our Associated Student Inc. for a Director of Diversity and Cultural Events or, something like that. I'm terrible remember(ing), those kind of details years back. But yeah, it was with ASI and I, so it was a Cultural and and Diversity Coordinator. So it'd be in charge of all the events regarding, you know, student orgs ,and things like that. So she know would talk about in this class and she was like, you know, this is available if you guys are interested and stuff. And then she personally took me aside and she's like, “I think you should go for this Dee.” I was like, “really?” She was like, “I think you might be good for it. You should try it out.” I was like, “Okay, cool.” That was my thing. (laughs) I was just like, okay, people see something in me, I guess I'll try it. It wasn't anything like, oh, I have so wanted this job, or I should be interested. It's like, okay, let me just fill it out and stuff and you know, and ask questions, you know, your personal identity. What do you think you would bring on campus? Why is cultural diversity important to you and, and to the students? Those are kind of some of the things I remember. And, and you know, I was filling it out, just kind of taking a lot of the experience. I grew up, you know, being a military child and being in San Francisco and other places and having to adjust to those. It's just, you know, feeling--just more of creating a belonging on campus. Meyer: Um-Hm. Salvidar: Because especially during that time, there was not a lot of students of color on, on campus. It was very predom-- we called it the pre-primarily, PWI. Primarily a White Institution (Predominately White Institution). That was, what do you call it? Oh geez, I forgot what you call it. Commuter (student body). Yeah. So it was very big commuter student, there was no student life on campus. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: It wasn't as lively as it was, is now or a couple years before. So I applied for it. I think I was the only one (laughs) that applied for it because I don't think, because ASI wasn't even really built up either. We were such a young campus. And so I interview it. I ended up being on the board and so that was kind of my shoe into student activities and student involvement. And that's where I got to meet other people, meet other campus organizations, realized, oh my gosh, there's much more to on-campus than going to class. Meyer: Right. Saldivar So from there I ended up, you know, having to--part of that position allowed me to network and coordinate with a lot of different folks on campus, which was great. And that's when I caught the attention of Alexis (Montevirgen, second Associate Director of Multicultural Programs). Who was a part of the Multicultural Center at a student affair, student activities department. And he would be attending some of the stuff that ASI would be putting on. And he's like, “So have you thought of, you know, maybe wanting to move into student, you know, affairs and activities? You know, I have a position that'd be coming up,” you know, but because with ASI it was only a one-year thing. So it wasn't like you could continue. I mean, I could continue on if I wanted to, but, you know it was just my foot on the door just trying to see what, it was about. And he's like, “Yeah, you know, we actually have a center that you could be a peer educator and all this stuff come by. Let's talk. You know, I'd love to see what you'd be interested in doing for us.” And, and, it was kind of amazing to see a male Filipino-- Meyer: Um-Hm Saldivar: Faculty, staff member on campus. Because it was like, wait, there's somebody that looks like me and he's interested in what I have to do and talk about. So it was kind of really neat to kind of see him as a mentor and a friend and somebody that looks like me, but could understand also culturally, you know, where we come from. What was interesting was I hadn't really explored my Filipino identity as much, because I wasn't really exposed to it other than my family. And so I felt more closely to my Chinese American identity. So him being Filipino and being like, hey, you know, I see you, let’s work together. Let's figure out what we could do. I felt like it was an opportunity for me not just to, you know, be a part of that center, but also to help kind of selfishly myself, kind of, I learned who I am. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, in this role. So after I did ASI for the one year, they're like, “So you want to continue?” I'm like, “Actually I want to move over there (points, laughs).” So they, they always laugh because Sarah Gallegos was my supervisor for ASI. So her and Alexis, you know, would work together and stuff and she's like, “You stole my person (laughs).” So they would always joke about that and everything. “Stop stealing my people!” Meyer: They're poaching. Saldivar: Right. Exactly. He literally just straight up poached me. He's like, so you interested. So that's how I ended up being a part of the Multicultural Center as, it was, it was a different title at that time. It was, I, I don't know if it was ambassador or, because it wasn't even called peer educator at that time. It was just kind of like, I was his assistant because the peer educator program hadn't, hadn't even started yet. We were in, he was in the— the works of actually building it. So I kind of came on more as a, as like an executive assistant to him helping him organize what is the peer education supposed to look like? What are some programs we could start doing? Things like that. So looking at more of the administrative logistic planning of it before even, just even being a student. So it was kind of nice because, I was able to do some of my work experience to like, hey, you know, let's get my type A personality going here. Yeah. So (laughs). Yeah. So that's how I fell into it. And I was there for almost two and a half, three years. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: Yeah. I continued on with it. He was just like, yeah, you're staying on. I'm like, okay. (laughs). Meyer: Aw. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: Well, it sounds like you were really essential to the early space. Saldivar: I want to say I am, I guess. I mean, I was just in it because I felt like it was such a great opportunity to create a space for students who, didn't feel like they belonged on campus. And just to be with great minds who want to think big and create a culture and a system of, what do you call it? Just, you know, integrate a lot of things on campus that wasn't there. And it was, I felt like it was one of, what do you call it? Now, I'm looking back like I'm, when I was young I was like, “I’m in it. This is fun. Yay!” Just go ahead and do this because, you know, I just want to be part of it and I'm now looking back like, I was in an incubator. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: I literally was in a startup not realizing it was a startup. So yeah. I was kind of looking back like, oh dang, (laughs). I did all that. Oh— Meyer: You were at the beginning of something really big. Yeah. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: So it sounds like the Cross-Cultural Center, or the Multi-Cultural Center as it was called, was a lot smaller when you started. Saldivar: Oh my gosh, yes (both laugh). Meyer : How would you say it was different when you started and when you left? Saldivar: Oh my gosh. We had people (laughs), the campus community actually knew what the Cross-Cultural Center was. So that was really, it was so interesting to see within the two-and-a-half, three years how much it had grown. When I started it was just me and Alexis in this small little room, red couches, you know, we had some posters up. We had a bookcase full of just some, you know, books that we called “our library” (laughs). Now that, I think have a huge like, depository of information that people can have resources to. But at that time we didn't even have this library, so it was-- Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: I know it's hard to imagine (laughs). So there wasn't like a lot of resources focused on DEI (Diversity and Equity) work, you know, even it was even called DEI work at that time. It was just called, you know , you know, diversity and multiculturalism. So a lot of the lingo has even changed from the time I was there to now. I think what, I mean, just breaking it down to even certain years, the first year was just building, just building a foundation, getting down what is the Multi-Cultural Center about what’s its place on campus and how can we be in collaboration and community with all the other centers that were even being established. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So it was nice that it was a really good time for the Cross-Cultural Center, Women's Center, um, the LGBT (Lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, and transgender) Center, the Pride Center, all those centers kind of working together to build each other up. You know, we knew that it was important to have these centers, but we didn't wanna have just one centralized one that filled everything. Its like, no, we need to really, I don't wanna say--segment them. But we, they did needed to be segmented because there's all different sorts of needs for each one. But we also wanted to work together as, you know, we are here together as a whole but specifically they could help you with these certain things. You know. So we were, that was such a great time in where we didn't, we weren't fighting for resources and I think still they're not fighting for resources, so, which is good. So we started in Craven Hall, the small little area, and I think what really helped was just having students come and just hang out and know there's a space for them. Yeah. It ended up being a lot of API (Asian Pacific Islander) students of course. So, you know, it kind of, it was hard to get that stigma off for a while that's like, “Oh, that's the Asian Center.” It's like, no, we're actually open to a lot more people. But it just happened to be a lot of Asians in here. Meyer: You're not the first person who said that. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: I’ve heard that a few times. Saldivar: Yeah. I know Floyd is still dealing with that. (both talking) Meyer: Yeah, Floyd mentioned that. Saldivar: I’m sorry, I'm so sorry (laughs). Myere: No— Saldivar: Because what, what was nice about the, the, the Multicultural Center or when it changed to the Cross-Cultural Center was that it was a nice incubator for student organizations to start too. There was, since there's no space for folks, there's no space to grow. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: And no space to, to create communities. And so that's kind of what happened with the Cross-Culture Center--well, I like Cross-Cultural Center, but it's Multicultural Center--back then Multicultural Center (laughs) was, it was an incubator for, for student orgs (organizations). So Kamalayan Alliance actually started from there. The Filipino organization that me, and actually my husband was a part of the, the found founding group. Yeah. So we founded that and it's crazy to see how far they are. And I was, oh god, 20 something years later. Oh, that makes me feel old. And they're like, “Oh yeah, 26th anniversary.” I'm like, “has it been 26 years?” Meyer: You're like, can we say 15 maybe? Saldivar: Can we just say anniversary? Just, just leave the number out. Meyer: Yeah (both laugh). Saldivar: It's crazy to see how many generations have gone through that. I know--what do you call, APSA? The Asian Pacific Student Society? The Vietnamese group. I know we also helped, and this was later on also, you know, the Black Student Union, things like that. And kind of just developing and growing and finding spaces to find each other. And then being able to create that community. And then if they needed to go off and do their own thing, that was fine too. But we just were happy that, hey, people found each other through here and they were able to do something and create action. So that was kind of a really, something that I hold dear to my heart is that there was a space for students to do that and to find friendships and god, I don't know how many of them got married to each other. Meyer: Aw. Saldivar: (laughs) There’s a lot of people that are like, oh, you're still together. We're still best friends and now y'all have kids. And it's crazy how much the, the, that space had, impacted so many people so many years later. Meyer: Wow. Yeah. Saldivar: So I guess, so what else happened there? I mean, there's just so much (laughs). We did move three times, the time I was there, so it was nice that they realized this space is too small for us. They ended up, the main office ended up taking note of how many students were coming in a day. So then they could show to, I don't know, the chancellor, the provost, I still don't understand the hierarchy. And I'm a student and I'm in higher ed(ucation). And I was like, what (laughs) You know, they're like, there's a need here. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: You see what's happening is that these students are coming in, they're using the space, they're doing this, this, this, and this. So they were provide--so us, us students just hanging out and chilling and doing whatever we're doing there. They were using us, as I won’t saying using us. But, you know, they were using us as a case study saying, “Hey, this is something important to us. Look what's happening. We need a bigger space.” And so what was nice is that through, I think between 2005, five and six or six or six or seven, we ended up moving us to the bottom floor of the Craven Hall. Or was it the first floor? It's one of the, the lower ends. Which was nice because not only was it semi-visible to, the students now, because people would have to walk by the center to get to the one stop. And we were in front of that really nice, painted mural. But they also, it was a bigger space. It was an awkward space, but it was bigger. It was this weird triangle and were like, how are we gonna fit anything? So it was really weird, like sectioned off stuff. It was weird. But what was nice is that because of being more visible people were able to see, “Hey, wait, what's going on in there? Oh, that looks cool.” Then we were able to even promote more of our programs and be like, hey, have you guys heard of this? Or, you know, here's a flyer, here's A-frames. Things like that. The red couches still, still came with us because the red couches came (both laugh) wherever we went. Everybody knew us by the red couches. I think, that was really one of the key things that brought a lot of students in, because you know, I mean, before we just had-- Meyer: Benches Saldivar: Benches. And basic chairs. And it was not comfortable. It didn't feel welcoming. People like, “Hey, you wanna take a nap? We got some red couches.” People just pass out there next thing (Meyer laughs) you know, they made it a home. You know. Other things that happened in there was when a lot of programming was starting to be developed. So I was there as the assistant for about six months until the new semester kicked in. And me and Alexis had come up, helped develop the peer educator program. So the peer educator program consisted of four peer educators. I was kind of the main lead one. Jay (Franklin) was hired on as, the LGBTQ peer educator. And then there was Brittany, which I forgot her, what her specific one was. And then there was Stephanie who was like spiritual and religious. So we were kind of sectioned off into certain areas of our expertise to kind of help reach out to those groups. At that time it kind of worked because it was such a small population of the students, we could do that. As time has gone on, they just made 'em all peer educators and they were just kind of more cross trained in everything and anything. And whoever had those expertise would be kind of referred to. So it became more of a referral system than it was like, “Oh, you go to Jay because he's specifically this identity.” But it was great because we were able to all really learn from each other. Oh yeah. And then there was Cher, how can I forget, I forgot Cher. Cher is fun. Cher just, her (laughs) demeanor was so different, she was, very introverted, but once you got to know her, oh, she had the most sassiest mouth ever. And I'm just like, “Cher! We can't say that!” (Both laugh) But she was great. She, we, we came really close. And I think that's what I love about being in that peer educator program that we became really close. You know, we were all in it brand new. First of all, we were all students of color, so we're like, oh my god, there's more you know (laughs). And it was a great learning opportunity for all of us. So the things that we didn't know or understand, it was a safe space for us to explore that. So as peer educators, you know, we came up with some programming for the students. So we did things, and it kind of kind of all organically came together. You know, one, one of the things that we all worked on was called Multicultural Mondays. So on Mondays, once or every twice a month, I forgot what days.(laughs). There was a, you know, a certain schedule to it. We would, look at certain identities or things that would be meaningful for the students to wanna explore. So just kind of added programming to it. One of the things that I love that I hold dear to my heart was one of the programs we did called “Dinner Dialogues.” That was a very pricey program, but it worked (laughs). I'm like, “Do we have a budget?” (Both laugh) I didn't know what that was. I'm just like, “Can I have money for this?” Meyer: Well, Jay was saying, getting people in with food always worked. Saldivar: Oh gosh. Yeah. We ended up having a fridge and a microwave, but until we moved down to the, to the second floor. So yeah. That's one of things. Like we got food, we got pizza because, the campus was a food desert. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: We had nothing other than the Dome (food services originally operated by San Diego State University’s Aztec Shops). And the Dome was one of, first of all kind of expensive, and two, it was gross (both laugh). It was, oh. Oh no. So one of the things that we came up with called Dinner Dialogues, and it was a really great, I wanna say experience of how that organically happened as a program. It was just a bunch of students, hanging out in the Cross-Cultural Center past four o'clock, which was very rare because nobody wanted to be on campus past two. Usually the classes ended at two, you were gone. But these students felt safe. They felt home. They felt like, this is where I want to be. So we all ended up just getting food. I think this was when Chick-fil-A opened and we all got free, what do you call it? Chicken sandwich passes. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So we all went got like (laughs), thirty-five sandwiches. Oh, it was crazy. And yeah, we all sat there, we're just all eating. And we started talking about-- it was my, my good friend Jacob Dansler, he was, Black male and it was some of us and we were all, you know, all from different backgrounds and stuff. And we were talking about some of the challenges that we've had as a person of color or what it mean to be a man of color, or a woman of color or, you know, LGBQ person of color. And it was really cool to kind of just sit there and have that kind of dialogue with each other and learn and be able to ask questions that were, I wouldn't say in, in a way that we didn't feel like we were being judged for asking these questions. It was a very safe space and a space for learning and, and feeling, you know, we actually have a lot more in common than we realized. And people were like, you know, we need to make this a program. This is cool. I would love to have these kind of spaces where we could talk about these things like this. And so that's where Dinner Dialogues ended up coming out and we're like, yeah, free meal, but at the same time, let me talk with you about things that maybe we don't have these opportunities to talk about all the time . So it was really great. That program kicked off really well and we had ended up having, I think it was for two years until I actually ended up leaving. And then I don't know what happened if it continued or if it morphed and changed ‘cause it always changes with people who come in. But yeah, I think that was one of really one of the main things that kicked off there. And then Jay, because he was the LGBTQ peer educator, he also was able to bridge a lot of the communities together and start, start planning out the Pride Center. And so that was kind of really nice in where the, the Multicultural Center was the hub of creating more and building more and growing out. So while he was there, we worked together in supporting not only the, oh gosh, LGBT group, but then also, okay, how are we gonna get a space for these students as well? So that was a really big achievement for Jay and for the Cross-Cultural Center in that sense. And it was nice that we were able to support each other in building those communities. You know, mine was Kamalayan, his was-- Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, the pride, oh, we call it, I think Britney was helping with the BSU (Black Student Union) part, things like that. So we were all there to support each other, support the students and just, I don't know, we were just doing it because we wanted to. It's just ‘cause we had the passion for it and we loved it. I don't think we—it was like fully intentional what we were doing. And until we're like, oh crap, look what we did (laughs). Meyer: Yeah. You wanted to create a space for you and the people on campus and it just kept being a space. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: That's great. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: All right. Saldivar: I know, I think I've-- there's so much. I hope I'm catching everything (laughs). Meyer: No, you're, you're actually answering some of the questions before I even ask 'em, which is great-- (both talking) Saldivar: Oh, perfect. Okay good. Meyer: Yeah. How did it, how did the Cross-Cultural Center help you develop and express your cultural identity? Saldivar: Oh gosh. I think it made me, I think it was, it was, that was just one of the many layers upon my education studies here. Because in my communications major, and because minoring in sociology and ethnic studies, those classes helped me really look internally of who I was, what my identities meant, how they came across to, to the students, to the people that I work with. You know, really being able to put all that theory and then the Cross-Cultural Center allowed me to put it into practice. Oh god, I sound old (laughs). Meyer: No. Saldivar: Being able to put those together. I'm like, ah, makes me (unintelligible). Meyer: No that's, that's a great way to put it. Yeah. Saldivar: Yeah. And I think that helped me a lot in regards to the development of who I was becoming and who I am now. You know, coming into a college, like I said, you know, first gen(eration) Chinese, Filipino-American, I'd like, what does that, what did that mean to me? You know, even when I, I went into college, I didn't even know, I didn't even know that I was considered first gen. I was just like, yeah, I'm going to college because everybody says I should, or, you know, my parents weren't able to go and they said I should go, so I'm gonna go, you know, you just don't have that frame of reference until you get into a space. They're like, “Oh, are you the first one to go in your family? Oh, so you’re the first gen.” Wait, what, what does that mean? So, and so, you know, not realizing there's the support systems and things like that to help you and understand and develop that. And I think that's what really helped me was with that Cross-Cultural Center is to be--is to meet not only my community and people and friends, lifelong friends, who’re gonna help me, you know, be where I am today. But also meeting the mentors and the folks who do the work and how they've helped me understand more of, I guess the practice and, and the acknowledgement of like, it's okay to be uncomfortable. You know, it's, it, it's it, you have to be uncomfortable with the un-- you have to be comfortable with the uncomfortable, you know, these are things that I don't know, and it's okay not to know. You know, you're gonna move into certain spaces where you're gonna feel uncomfortable and how do you unpackage that? How do you take that and make it into a learning opportunity? And that's one thing that Dilcie Perez has-- she taught me throughout my time being there . She was such a great guidance and mentor for me that I give her kudos to everything about what I do with the work that I do. I remember when I was asked to return back for the 15th-year anniversary of the Cross-Cultural Center, and they asked me and Jay to be speakers, I was like, “Oh, good lord, what am I supposed to talk about?” (both laugh) There's so much to talk about! And it took me a while to realize what I wanted to say. And it came back in, to the fact of being intentional. And that always stuck with me. The one thing that Dilcie always said to me, she was like, what's your intentions on what you know, of what you're doing? Why are you doing this? Meyers: Um-Hm. Salvidar: So I wasn't just doing something for the sake of doing it, but just to understand, you know, is there an impact? What are the consequences? What is the bigger picture that you're trying to achieve? Even (Former Dean of Students, Gregory) Toya was a really great, mentor and where he asked, “What are the students learning outcomes?” I was like, students what (laughs)? What, what? He's like, yeah. Why are we putting on this? Why are you putting on this project? Or why are you putting on this program? What do you want the students to learn? So that really gave me a great foundation and understanding of, why am I doing this? Just, am I doing it for the sake of doing it? Is it self-serving, or is it really here for the students? And being kind of in a, in a selfish (selfless?) teaching moment. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So I, I wanna say that the Cross-Cultural center really helped me build, you know, a framework or a lens of how I move forward in doing whatever I do or move, as I grow up, you know, it's like, oh my gosh, it made me mature (laughs)! Meyer: They gave you a little toolkit with all the stuff you-- Salvidar: Right. Meyer: You needed for adult life. Saldivar: Exactly. And I, and I thank them for that. ‘Cause now that I'm, you know, now in kind of their space. In their spot. It's so weird to have that flip in where I was looking for mentors who look like me or who I could connect to. But now I'm in that space and where I'm the mentor and where I'm reaching out to students say, “Hey, I see you. Let me, you know, I'm here for you. If you need a space or someone to talk to, I'm here.” You know, and it's so weird to be in that odd spot (laughs) right now, but it's because of them that they were such great models by example that I now have those skills and that toolkit to be like, okay, you know what? I know what it feels like to be in that spot. Let me help you get to where you wanna be. Let me help you unpackage what's going on with your lives and things like that. You know, just an example was a couple weeks ago I had a grad student, who identifies as Chinese American reach out to me. And she's like, I wanna be in where you are at in doing marketing and communication. But how do I, you know, deal with the cultural, challenges with my parents who want me to be in the medical field. Meyer: Um-Hm. Salvidar: And I was like, oh girl, let's talk (both laugh)! You know? And so it was really nice and, and I would say the experience of being, being able to talk to her and her just at the end feeling so relieved and feeling like she could find someone that she could connect to. Someone that she was able to be like, oh my god, I'm not alone in this feeling and this experience and it's okay to feel what I'm feeling. Was such an elated moment for me to be like, oh my gosh, I can still help students (laughs). You know-- Meyer: You took that weight off her shoulders. Saldivar: Yeah. And it felt good to be, you know, I was there and I didn't have anyone to help me with navigating that. And I'm glad that I was able to be there for her to have those experiences that I could be able to connect with someone else who's going through the same thing. So yeah, the Cross-Cultural Center helped me grow a lot, Personally a lot. In understanding who I am, what space I take, what space I should take, you know, what being present means. In spaces that don't have many people of color or female people of color. Yeah. I mean it's (laughs). It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. Meyer: And I understand that you made a lot of friends there and met your husband at the Cross-Cultural Center. Saldivar: (laughs) Yes. Meyer: Tell us a little bit about how you guys met. Saldivar: Oh my gosh. (laughs). Meyer: Well, it's relevant to the Cross-Cultural Center, so. Saldivar: Right. Yeah. I mean, that's the funny thing. It's just, wow, y'all (both laugh) we're, we're like, y'all met and y'all married, now you have a kid. Okay! Meyer: So you're not the only ones. There's multiple. Saldivar: There were several people who, I would say yeah, got married some of our best friends and stuff. So me and Randy (Saldivar), met through a friend. It was not intentional when we first met. I was actually working with ASI at the time. So we were, I was at the cancer, one of the cancer walks, the Susan G. Koman cancer walks that we had on here at the field. I was a part of, you know, the walking team and my good friend Trish at the time, she was another Filipina-American and who were able to connect, was there with me to help support. And we were both at the check-in, check-in table at that time. And this is when we had the Nokia phones. Okay. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: This is how old it was. So she (laughs)--her. Randy had called her ‘cause I guess he was studying at the library. He was like, “Hey, what's up? What are you doing?” She's like, “Hey, come down.” You know, “I'm with my friend Dee, and we're at this thing, you know, just come and hang out.” He's like, okay. I didn't even know who he was. I didn't know who this guy was. She's like, oh, my friend's coming over. I'm like, okay, cool. I'm sitting there with my--I was in a Japanese 101 at this time, so I have my Japanese book out. I'm reading it, you know, he comes down with his boom box and (Meyers laughs) and I’m, I was like, what are you doing? He's like, oh yeah, you know, just B-boying. And I'm like, okay, cool. Whatever. You know, I didn't know anything about the hip-hop culture and stuff. And she's like, “Oh, this is my friend Randy, Randy this Dee,” I'm like, “Cool. Okay.” And he looks down and he is like, “Oh, you're studying Japanese?” I'm like, “Yeah, I'm in 101.” He's like, “Oh, I took it.” I was like, “Oh cool. How was it?” He's like, “Oh, it's really fun. He's like, do you need help with it?” I'm like, “No, I'm cool, thanks.” So (both laugh). So that's was my first initial meeting with him. Not even a thought. He was just a passing thought. And there was another time where they had the International Festival here on campus, and it was me and Trish again. And we're eating Ramen sitting on the floor. Randy comes by, says hi again. And this is a time where we had the old school, film. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: So we didn't have phones or anything. It was just, yeah, he was going around taking pictures, right, and--but this is where you could actually get it digitally downloaded, which was weird. On a CD, and he had taken a picture of me and Trish and it wasn't until years later when we started dating where we're going through photos. And it was labeled “Trish and Friend.” Meyer: Oh my God. (laughs) Saldivar: I was like-- Meyer: That's your wife. Saldivar: I was like, Randy, that's, that's me (both laugh). He was like, wait, what? He looks back, oh my god, I took a picture of you two (laughs). And we couldn’t stop dying. Just, we had all of these opportunities that we had met. And nothing. He wasn't attracted to me. I wasn't attracted to him. We had no clue. We even met each other. We're like, ah-ha. Cool. Okay. Bye. It wasn't until our friend Trish had decided when, you know after we were kind of starting the Cross-Cultural Center and stuff. It's, you know, let's create a, a student organization for Filipino-Americans or folks who were interested in the Filipino-American culture. Great. So she asked me to be on board. My friend Marvin, asked Randy to be on it, and her friend Katie. So it was the five of us. And we, we, that's when we literally first intentionally met each other. Like, oh, hey, okay. I thought of him as a little brother. I was like, cool (laughs), you know, whatever. And so then we would go to the Cross-Cultural Center, or the Multicultural Center to hold meetings just to hang out, you know? ‘Cause Alexis ended up being our advisor as well. So then we would ask him, okay, how do we, you know, how do we start this (student organization)? Or what are things that we need to do? You know, we ended up having our first GBM, you know, and, and saying, okay. So we started kind of building out the, the, the student org here and there. During that time there was probably about--we knew each other for about a good eight months by now. We just still friends. We just kil-, I don't even pay attention to him. He don't pay attention to me. We're just like, yeah, cool. Have you seen this movie? Cool. Have you seen this? Okay. Yeah. We're just hanging out. And then, masquerade ball was around the corner. And all of us were like, yeah, let's go. Let's go to masquerade ball. Woo! You know, let's just dress up and dance. And it was my friend Trish who was like, “So have you thought of, what do you think of Randy?” And I was like, what do you mean what do I think of Randy? “Like, you know, what do you think of him? Like, you think he's cute or something?” And I was like, “Uh, he's okay. I mean, he's nice.” Like she, I, you know, she's trying to plant seeds in my head. On the flip end, she's planting seeds on his end. Meyer: Oh. Saldivar: “So what do you think about Dee?” I was like, what! Meyer: One of those friends-- Saldivar: Yeah. Yeah. She's like, I see something, but you both don't see it. So she was playing matchmaker. And so one time, we were supposed to all meet and go to, a GBM meeting, or we call FCC, Filipino Collegiate Collaborative. So this is where, all the schools across San Diego, USC (University of Southern California), UCSD (University of San Diego), San Diego State and us (CSUSM) were supposed to meet all the Filipino American organizations. So we worked together outside of the school to work with other student orgs, which was really cool. So we were supposed to have our meeting, and it was supposed to be me, Trish, and Randy. And Trish was like, “Oh no, I'm sick. I can't go, but if you two wanna go.” I'm like, okay (laughs). Literally, that's kind of how it ended up going. “Okay. So, you wanna go to like, masquerade ball together?” “Sure. Okay.” So it ended up kind of being our first date in a sense. And then from there, you know, we were kind of dating and-- Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: Because we were still involved in, you know, Kamalayan Alliance. We were coming, as you could tell to the center, he would help out and volunteer a lot, you know, and he saw, you know, Alexis, he's like, “Hey, another Filipino. Yay!” So, you know, we all started kind of building the community and you know, we're spending more time together. He's helping out a lot. And then next thing you know, it's, I'm the one who asked him out (laughs). I was like, so, you know what's going on? (Meyer laughs) And he is like, hey, yeah. I was like, “So do you wanna go out or something?” And he looks at me and he's like, “Yeah, sure. Where do you want to eat?” (Meyer laughs) I was like, “What?” “Yeah. You said you wanna go out, so where do you want to eat?” I'm like, oh my god, you’re so dense. (laughs). I was like, no, do you, wanna be, you know, exclusive? He was like, “Oh yeah. Okay, cool.“ Meyer: Where do you want to eat? Right? Saldivar: He's like, uh, so this-- it tells you so much about his personality. We are so different from each other (laughs), you know, and, he's such a great support. He, when we talk about it, we laugh about it. I'm always the very type A business type of person behind the scenes. Let's get the logistics and stuff going. He's the PR (public relations) of it all. He can talk people's ear off, he can find people's stories, he can connect with them. And then once he does a connection here, here's Dee. And then, you know, I get all this stuff taken care of (laughs). So it was really cool. We've, we worked really well in tandem. And I, I'm surprised at the age that we were at, we were early twenties nobody knew we were dating. Meyer: Oh wow. Saldivar: We were very professional in a sense of where nobody knew in the student org or even sometimes in the Cross-Cultural Center that we were even together, we kept it very, professional. Didn't do the whole PDA (Public Display of Affection) thing. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: No. You know, we're not here to do that. We're here to serve our community. And I think at such a young age and stage of our relationship of being able to do that, helped us really kind of be able to be really good partners. In the sense where what we do here is for, you know, a different purpose versus what we do here. Meyer: Right Saldivar: I think it was the one time (laughs) at a GBM, this is where the students really started growing. You know, we had almost forty to fifty members by the second, third year, and we had people come through the center and stuff. (laughs) When GBM, he went to go off to go get lunch and he is like, let me go grab something before the, the, the meeting and I'll see you. I'll be right back. And then he gave me a kiss. Everyone freaked out. They're like, oh, what? Meyer: Oh. Saldivar: They're like, what? (laughs) We’re like, what? They’re like what was that? (points, laughs), and we’re like, oh, y'all don't know yet? Like really a core small group of us. The ones right here knew, you know. Meyer: But everyone else. Saldivar: Everyone else, because I guess because they didn't hang out with us outside of the Cross-Cultural Center or at our house or when we went to the dinner and things like that. We really kept it. We, we didn't know we were that good at keeping it very separate. You know, when we go out to sushi or dinner, hang out at people's houses and we were, you know, completely different people. But we were in a school setting or the Kamalayan setting, we were very--we are officers, we are representatives of this, you know, this space. We need to be kind of, you know, professional. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So yeah. That moment that kiss happened, people were like, (gasps)? And we had people, no, you're lying. You're all lying to us. You just, no, you're trying to prank, someone was so sure we were probably, we were trying to just get a rise out of people. We're like, no, we've been together for like six months now. They're like, (gasps) no! (laughs). So it was, it was crazy. It was, that's how we ended up meeting, you know, he graduated in Kinesiology in 2009. Yeah. He--and what was nice is that in, he was also the president of Kamalayan, probably within the first two or three years. And the Cross-Cultural Center helped in creating a lot of the success of Kamalayan and where we had the first API (Asian Pacific Islanders) graduate ceremony. Meyer: Oh. Saldivar: Now that has been going on. And we used the center, oh my gosh, that was so crazy. (laughs). We had used the Cross-Cultural Center as a place to build the graduate, the, the planning of the graduate. And we also made the stoles. This is how we had no budget. So we went to Michael's (craft store) and bought the thickest red stole, I mean, red ribbon we could. Meyer: Oh yeah. Saldivar: And black puffy paint. Meyer: Oh no. Saldivar: And we're sitting there, (painting) 2005. Meyer: And that never looks even or clean. Saldivar: Oh no. It was a hot, ugly mess. (Meyer laughs) And you know, we put API grad and there's, you know we're trying to sit there and make it dry, so nothing's smearing. We had red ribbons everywhere and Alexis was like, what the heck is going on? I'm like, “We're making stoles!” (Both laugh) And he's like, oh boy. So I'm--yeah. A lot of the things that happened, like I said, the Cross-Cultural Center was an incubator. A lot of things was DIY (Do It Yourself). It was handmade. You had no budget. So what were we gonna do? You know, we had a lot of, thank goodness we had a lot of support from departments and different, areas with, other API folks who were like, yeah, we got budgets that we could go ahead and just hand over to you or, you know, we'll support you or sponsor you in this or sponsor you in that. So, oh, thank goodness for this community because I don't know if we would’ve got where we are today without really, the support of the school to see that there is a need and it wasn't coming up from the president or things like that. It was coming from the ground up. So that was really cool. Meyer: You were asking for what you needed, not having someone tell you. Yeah. Saldivar: Exactly. And they're like, oh, we--that's what made a, I think Cal State San Marcos such a unique school is that they listen to the people from the ground. It's not directives always coming from the top saying, hey, we need this, or you need to do this, or you need to do this. It's like, no, the students are saying something, how can we meet their needs? Type of thing. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So it's been really cool in seeing that dynamic versus a lot of other institutions that believe or think that, you know, this is what the students want, but not really listening to them. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: So yeah. So yeah, all in all, that's how me and Randy met. And we ended up getting married after I finished my master's program. And then now we have a child. Two of our other friends, Mike and Darlene met through, he was part of Kamalayan and she was a part of VSA, the Vietnamese Student Association. And we worked really well together, or we worked closely together and we ended up being, you know, in the Cross-Cultural Center as well. And so she ended up asking him out and he was like, “Sure, okay. I didn't know you liked me.” (Both laugh). And now they're together, married. And then other, there's another couple come Kamalayan Alliance that also was a part of the Cross-Cultural Center and they ended up doing, PCN together, Filipino Culture Night. Which was another thing the Cross-Cultural Center helped create and establishing a lot of that stuff too. And now they're married (laughs). So yeah, there's a lot of married couples coming out and just, you know, we're still really all in touch with each other. People have ended up, generations after us, one of our good friends Jael he was part of Kamalayan Alliance, I'm not sure if he was part of the board, but now he owns and runs his own polvorón company, called Papa's Polvorón. And where he's now has his--it started out as like a at home kitchen type of thing. And he was at the farmer's markets. Now he has his product in a lot of the Filipino stores, across the nation. So it's like, geez, (laughs). Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, it's really nice to see where all of the students and people who've been through the Cross-Cultural Center and where they are now. You know, and I think that's just one of the biggest rewards I see. Being a part of that community was like, wow, I was there to see y'all start like, “I don't know what I wanna do. I just wanna go and, eat all you can eat sushi.” To, now they're having families and having own businesses and doing great things and great work, you know? So Yeah. So yeah. That's how I met my husband (laughs). Long story short. Meyer: Well it's so intertwined with the story of the Center for you. So I think it's really cool the, you know. Yeah. Saldivar: When we, took our engagement photos we came back to the center, we came back to the campus because this has so much meaning for us. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know-- Meyer: I'll add the pictures, to the file later. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: But, just so people know what you're talking about, the picture of you when you thought it was, like a conference and it was a surprise actually. Saldivar: Yeah. (laughs) Meyer: That’s that's really sweet. Yeah. What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing going forward as it coexist with these other identity-specific spaces? You said it's kinda like a support, an incubator, it helps kind of foster the activities of the other programs. Saldivar: Yeah. I think when, when it was in, during my time generation, that's what it was. Now, I mean, it's grown so much and where I, I want--in a sad way that I don't recognize it anymore, but that's a good thing. Because that means there has been growth and development and changes. And I'd rather see that than stay where it is stagnant-wise. What role it has now on the campus, I--I don't really know. Meyer: You've been off campus for awhile (laughs). Saldivar: I’ve been off campus for a while, so it's like, oh, I don’t know what it's gonna be. I mean, what they're doing now, it, it--and I want them to continue what they're doing: is to just continue to, to grow support, find changes. I mean, a lot of the things that I've seen is, you know, with their programming has changed. Which I think it's great, it's changing with the times and that's how all centers should be is, you know, they have to go with what's going on with the students. If they're not willing to change or, be flexible, then what's kind of, what's the purpose of the center? Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, that's kind of the (laughs) thing I could say because I mean, I've been so removed. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: I mean, other than coming back and, you know, being like, “Yay. Hi everybody.” I'm like-- Meyer: You haven't been hands-on with the center for a while. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: Of course, of course. Saldivar: Yeah. I'm, I'm the person that used to be here years ago (laughs). “No, don't call me Auntie, please!” (Both laugh) Meyer: And are there any other memories you wanna share that, um, like I know there were retreats that you guys (video cuts out, battery ran down, audio recording) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SaldivarDiana_StanleySeth_2023-04-14.xml SaldivarDiana_StanleySeth_2023-04-14.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saldivar, Diana. Interview April 14th 2023. Description An account of the resource Diana Saldivar is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Communications, Sociology and Ethnic Studies. Saldivar worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2004-2007 and was also involved in the Asian Pacific Islander Student Society, Kamalayan Alliance, and with Associated Students Incorporated (student government). In her interview, Saldivar discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center provided her with a sense of belonging on campus and served as a second home. Saldivar explains how the center provided her with lifelong friendships, skills and connections that has helped her become the person she is today. Saldivar recounts how the CCC provided a safe space, allowing for conversations with others that are often deemed controversial, and how the center encouraged those to constantly seek knowledge. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-39 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University. Multicultural Programs Filipino Americans Human rights Student success San Diego State University Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-14 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Diana Saldivar Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madeleine Meyer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Diana Saldivar Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4bcd8ed877ea09e7427c82b1554dcd38.pdf 1d119ec1d00bab23677c754d035b658b PDF Text Text Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Madeleine Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Diana Saldivar at California State University San Marcos for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Friday, April 14th, 2023, and the time is 11:57. I'd like to start with asking you a little bit about yourself. Where did you grow up and what was your early life like? Diana Saldivar: Ooh, that's a long question (both laugh). That's gonna be a long answer. How long do we have? Um, I actually was born here in San Diego, California on a military, one of the military bases. I don't know exactly which one. My mom forgot to give me those details, but all I know is that the hospital is now torn down. So I know it doesn't exist anymore, but I assume it was either 32nd or one of the Navy bases down south. Because I didn't know, we lived in North Park for a little bit, from there, because my dad's military career, we moved several places across, the West Coast. So I've been to Fallon, Nevada, San Francisco, Treasure Island, back to San Diego, Hawaii. And then once my dad retired, he retired at Camp Pendleton here in Oceanside. So I ended up being around probably fourteen, fifteen (years old). So right in the middle of my middle school, high school years is when I came to kind of be more of a, a transplant to San Diego. So--it was definitely still different from me, (laughs) for me from moving from San Francisco to a really big, you know, metropolitan city with a lot of diversity to Oceanside, which was very (laughs), in development still. Meyer: Um-Hm. Saldivar: So that was a big challenge. And then also because of me moving around to so many schools, I think I went to eight or nine schools by the time I was fifteen. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: So it wasn't like I grew up having solid friends, grew up with them during grade school and things like that. It was always a lot of transition. So me entering high school, middle school when everybody has friends since they were like second grade in kindergarten, that was very different for me. Fortunately, I was able to find my own community. I was able to find other, military transplants. So we just kind of found each other in a sense. So, I ended up graduating high school at Vista High, in 2000, oh (both laugh) that's so long ago. We just even had our 20th, annual, reunion. It was delayed because of the pandemic (COVID-19). Meyer: Right Saldivar: So it was 21(st annual reunion), which made it feel so much worse (laughs). So I graduated in Vista High and, I didn't really know what to do. I mean, I was kind of one of those, I was a first generation, what do you call it? Immigrant child who, my parents did some college, but it was more like vocational college. They didn't really understand the full traditional college career, how to get there. So I had a lot of high school counselors. They kind of helped with, you know, what are your thoughts about going into, you know, college, have you thought of, you know, applying and things like that. And it never really crossed my mind. I was just kind of going as it goes. But I ended up applying to San Diego State, Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos and one other college. Because of my dad's military career, he was able to get the GA or, the VA Bill (Veterans Affairs, often referred as GI Bill). So I was able to use it as his dependent, which was nice because affording college was just out of the question and having that nice little package was so good (laughs). So I had to stay in California, so I was very limited to where I could go. And I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I was like, you know, “Let's just go to Cal State San Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 1 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Marcos. It's close to home (laughs).” You know, I didn't really understand the whole, let's research and let's look at this and that and things. I'm just like, okay, I'll just go to college and put, I don't know, well non-major and stuff like that. And then, you know, I ended up being here, started 2000, dropped--got kicked out (both laugh) 2002 because I didn't meet the math requirement (laughs). I'm not sure if they still have that here, but as an undergrad you had to meet an English and math requirement. I definitely met the English because I did IB (International Baccalaureate) English, like honors English, but I was terrible at math, and I don't know why I was taking math classes at seven o'clock in the morning (Meyer laughs). So that was terrible setup for me. So then I ended up going to Palomar Community College for a couple years to get myself back on track, doing the, IGETC (Intersegmental General Education Transfer Curriculum) program. And probably by 2004 I found myself back here at Cal State San Marcos, you know, with a brand new focus, more (of an) understanding of what I wanted to do. Finally declared a major and two minors, like a crazy person. Like why would I wanna be the school more? I don't know. I ended up then graduating in the winter, or yet fall of 2007, but I walked, spring 2008, which was great because it felt really nice to kind of be able to represent my family, kind of being the first gen(eration) going across. And then it was like, what do I do now? And then I ended up going to San Diego State for my grad program, but that in itself wasn't even planned. Meyers: Um-Hm. Saldivar: This is kind of how my life has been. Meyers: Yeah. Saldivar: It just doesn't get planned. It just happens. Which is probably not a great (laughs) way to live life sometimes, unless you have a goal. It was my mentor, Dilcie Perez from the Cross-Cultural Center, or actually just kind of the student activities area and where she looked at me and she's like, “Did you ever think about making this a career?” And I was like, “What, I could get paid for this?” (both laugh). So that was kind of pretty much how it all happened in, the three months before I was graduating, I went to a info session about higher education programs and kind of figuring out that you could work with students, these are things that you could do to build your, your career in, in the collegiate setting. And I was like, oh, okay. I'll apply to of course, a California state school because that's how I can afford (laughs). And you know, still on my dad's, VA. Ended up getting in the San Diego State program. And so right after, the fall semester, I had a semester off because of the way that the, the, the calendar, schedule was laid out. So I had some work experience. So I ended up getting some work experience at the--oh my gosh. St. Paul? No, not St. Paul's. Oh my gosh. Father Joe's. Oh, my I’m like why I’m saying St. Paul's. Meyer: Yeah. Yeah. Saldivar: The Father Joe's Villages. I ended up, being a vocational counselor there for a couple months. And then I moved on to do my grad program at San Diego State. And then this was the longest title ever. Let me, let me see if I can get it right. Masters (laughs) of Arts in Higher Education with a Specialization in Student Affairs Administration. Meyer: Wow. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 2 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: Yeah (both laugh). You should see what it looks like on the degree (Meyer laughs). It's like, my gosh, what did it say? I'm like, just higher ed. Just, just say higher ed. Meyer: Just put et cetera at the end. Saldivar: Right. And (both laugh) everything's an acronym. So yeah, I went to San Diego State, got do-done, and then I graduated in 2010, when the economy was just (blows raspberry, gives thumbs down gesture). Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: So it was a terrible time-Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: To graduate because education was literally redlined. Nobody was hiring. People were, either being laid off or decreased (furloughed) and things like that. So I, it was, it was a difficult time because, you know, I grew up with that mentality, especially that, first gen mentality that if you go to college and you get these degrees, you're going to get a good job at the end. You're gonna get paid well, you're gonna be able to buy a house and all these other things, which is a very, you know, generational (laughs), you understand. We're like, yeah, here, we're now still paying rent. Meyer: Yeah Saldivar: So it was, it was very, it was very humbling. At the same time it was, it was an eye-opener to the reality of like, this is not really the American dream that I was fed to believe in a sense. If that'll, you know, if you're educated, you'll be much more successful, whatever that looks like in that terminology. I would say at least, probably 80 to 85% of our class did not end up in higher ed. Meyer: Um-Hm. Saldivar: They only got in if they were already doing an internship and then was already kind of luckily able to find funding to continue that internship into a part-time or, uh, what do you call it? A contracted job? So it wasn't even like they were full on (jobs). It was, you know, you're, we could, we could help keep you on for another year. And it was like yearly basis until they finally, leveled out and then got the full-time benefit stuff. So that's what happened to a lot of my, cohort, either they all ended up going home to where they, came from and then going into nonprofit or some type of K-12 (Kindergartentwelfth grade) education prep program. So we tried to find jobs, or I definitely tried to find jobs that could still, you know, help hone in my skills that are transferrable to get back into higher ed. But it took a long time to do that. So, I mean that's kind of more of my, educational professional side (laughs) about me. I guess, on a more personal side, I'm the first born of two. So I have a younger brother, two years younger than me. I, you know, grew up, like I said, all over the place. My parents are, my mom is from the Philippines and then my dad's Chinese. So he's from China, Hong Kong. They both immigrated to the states probably when they were fifteen, sixteen. Meyer: Wow. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 3 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: Yeah. So they were like teenagers. So they still kind of had deep cultural ties to their homelands, but then also was at that point in where they were at school, where they could become more acclimated to their American culture and things like that. So I kind of, I wanted to be, say like, I'm one and a half, two generation kind of in a sense where they understood some of, you know, American norms and values and things like that, but at the same time had that duality of, how do we stay culturally close to ourselves and things like that. So it, growing up I still kind of, you know, butt heads in, in a sense (laughs) with my parents. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: Like, well, that's not how I feel doing that now. Meyer: Yeah Saldivar: You know? I mean, even my grandma had immigrated later on and so, I had a lot of my family in the Bay Area. The San Francisco, San Jose, or Stockton area. And my Chinese grandma, R.I.P. (Rest In Peace) love her to death. She was very, very strict Chinese ma--grandma. And where she tried to marry me off so (laughs), I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. (laughs). I mean, I was too young to understand what was going on, but at least my mom was like, “We are not doing that!” Meyer: Oh my God. Saldivar: Yeah (laughs). Meyer: How, how old were you? Saldivar: I was probably about seven or eight when my grandma was grooming-Meyer: Oh-Saldivar: Me to, you know, prepare for like, have you met this child? Or, you know, I have a friend's son who's on my oh. What the heck? (Meyer laughs) No! Meyer: Your mom is like, “We're not, (both talking) we’re not doing this—" Saldivar: Yeah, exactly. We're not exactly (laughs). Meyer: Oh my gosh. Saldivar: Yeah. It was kind of neat because my, my--the thing is because my dad is a firstborn male of the family. So he's spoiled and everything and oh, since I'm the first daughter, you know, we have to make sure she's married off well. And then my, my brother who's actually considered the first-born male of the firstborn son gets so much better benefits and perks than I do. So even though I'm the first born (unintelligible) oh no, you're a female. But my son--my brother still gets like, everything. Meyer: And he's the baby. So it's, yeah. (Saldivar laughs). Oh man. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 4 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: Yeah. So that's kind of just a little bit about me. I know that was, a real deep dive into a lot of stuff. Meyer: No, that's great. That's great. Um, yeah, I, well that answers my question about your educational journey too. Which is perfect. Saldivar: There you go. Meyer: Um, and then I was just going to ask, how did you first become aware of the Cross-Cultural Center when you came onto Cal State San Marcos’ campus? Saldivar: That’s a, (laughs) that's actually a really good question. Um— Meyer: How did you wander in? Yeah. Saldivar: Yeah. And I think that's always the funny thing is people don't know about it. I think what was hard was when I was here on campus and versus like how it is now, it wasn't visible. Meyer: Oh OK. Saldivar: You--it was not even like an indicator. There was no signage, there was not like, how the Veterans Center is literally right there in the middle of campus or, you know, the Student Center is right there. The, the Cross-Cultural Center, or what it was called formerly is the Multicultural Center was in a back office kind of like this. It was hidden in Craven Hall (now Administrative Building), fourth floor way in. So when you walk in, it's not right there. It's like you have to go halfway through, then down this tiny corridor and then it's a door. Meyer: Um-Hm. Saldivar: And it's, you think, okay, either it's a janitor’s closet or it's where they keep all the, um, what do you call it, the computer stuff and everything— Meyer: Yeah Saldivar: Like a storage closet. You're just like, “Where is this place? Am I in the right place?” And (they’re) like, “Keep going down. (laughs) You're following the right area”. Like we had signs and arrows and everything. In different bright colors to make it feel like it's okay, (Meyer laughs) it's a safe space. You're coming to, you're know, we're not going to kidnap you or anything. (both talking) Meyer: This is not a meat locker. Saldivar: Right, exactly. You're going to make it out alive. Meyer: Yeah, yeah. Saldivar: The way I ended up getting there, funny enough was I was just going through--when I returned back to school, my focus was just get my degree and go, you know, I wasn't even thinking about being Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 5 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 involved, you know, student life, things like that. That wasn't even on my radar, until I started taking community, what do you call it? Sociology classes. So my major was Communications and I minored in Sociology and Ethnics Studies and my Ethnic Studies teacher--I am terrible with names (laughs). I see her face Dr. Elsie, (whispers: Elsie), no, Elsa, Elsie (Dr. Sharon Elise), something like that. Meyer: Uh-Hm. Salvidar: And she--was talking about, you know, race and, racial identity and things like that. And so she was very involved in the school, and something came up in where there’s a position for ASI, our Associated Student Inc. for a Director of Diversity and Cultural Events or, something like that. I'm terrible remember(ing), those kind of details years back. But yeah, it was with ASI and I, so it was a Cultural and and Diversity Coordinator. So it'd be in charge of all the events regarding, you know, student orgs ,and things like that. So she know would talk about in this class and she was like, you know, this is available if you guys are interested and stuff. And then she personally took me aside and she's like, “I think you should go for this Dee.” I was like, “really?” She was like, “I think you might be good for it. You should try it out.” I was like, “Okay, cool.” That was my thing. (laughs) I was just like, okay, people see something in me, I guess I'll try it. It wasn't anything like, oh, I have so wanted this job, or I should be interested. It's like, okay, let me just fill it out and stuff and you know, and ask questions, you know, your personal identity. What do you think you would bring on campus? Why is cultural diversity important to you and, and to the students? Those are kind of some of the things I remember. And, and you know, I was filling it out, just kind of taking a lot of the experience. I grew up, you know, being a military child and being in San Francisco and other places and having to adjust to those. It's just, you know, feeling--just more of creating a belonging on campus. Meyer: Um-Hm. Salvidar: Because especially during that time, there was not a lot of students of color on, on campus. It was very predom-, we called it the pre-primarily, PWI. Primarily a White Institution (Predominately White Institution). That was, what do you call it? Oh geez, I forgot what you call it. Commuter (student body). Yeah. So it was very big commuter student, there was no student life on campus. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: It wasn't as lively as it was, is now or a couple years before. So I applied for it. I think I was the only one (laughs) that applied for it because I don't think, because ASI wasn't even really built up either. We were such a young campus. And so I interview it. I ended up being on the board and so that was kind of my shoe into student activities and student involvement. And that's where I got to meet other people, meet other campus organizations, realized, oh my gosh, there's much more to on-campus than going to class. Meyer: Right. Saldivar So from there I ended up, you know, having to--part of that position allowed me to network and coordinate with a lot of different folks on campus, which was great. And that's when I caught the attention of Alexis (Montevirgen, second Associate Director of Multicultural Programs). Who was a part of the Multicultural Center at a student affair, student activities department. And he would be attending some of the stuff that ASI would be putting on. And he's like, “So have you thought of, you know, maybe Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 6 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 wanting to move into student, you know, affairs and activities? You know, I have a position that'd be coming up,” you know, but because with ASI it was only a one-year thing. So it wasn't like you could continue. I mean, I could continue on if I wanted to, but, you know it was just my foot on the door just trying to see what, it was about. And he's like, “Yeah, you know, we actually have a center that you could be a peer educator and all this stuff come by. Let's talk. You know, I'd love to see what you'd be interested in doing for us.” And, and, it was kind of amazing to see a male Filipino-Meyer: Um-Hm Saldivar: Faculty, staff member on campus. Because it was like, wait, there's somebody that looks like me and he's interested in what I have to do and talk about. So it was kind of really neat to kind of see him as a mentor and a friend and somebody that looks like me, but could understand also culturally, you know, where we come from. What was interesting was I hadn't really explored my Filipino identity as much, because I wasn't really exposed to it other than my family. And so I felt more closely to my Chinese American identity. So him being Filipino and being like, hey, you know, I see you, let’s work together. Let's figure out what we could do. I felt like it was an opportunity for me not just to, you know, be a part of that center, but also to help kind of selfishly myself, kind of, I learned who I am. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, in this role. So after I did ASI for the one year, they're like, “So you want to continue?” I'm like, “Actually I want to move over there (points, laughs).” So they, they always laugh because Sarah Gallegos was my supervisor for ASI. So her and Alexis, you know, would work together and stuff and she's like, “You stole my person (laughs).” So they would always joke about that and everything. “Stop stealing my people!” Meyer: They're poaching. Saldivar: Right. Exactly. He literally just straight up poached me. He's like, so you interested. So that's how I ended up being a part of the Multicultural Center as, it was, it was a different title at that time. It was, I, I don't know if it was ambassador or, because it wasn't even called peer educator at that time. It was just kind of like, I was his assistant because the peer educator program hadn't, hadn't even started yet. We were in, he was in the— the works of actually building it. So I kind of came on more as a, as like an executive assistant to him helping him organize what is the peer education supposed to look like? What are some programs we could start doing? Things like that. So looking at more of the administrative logistic planning of it before even, just even being a student. So it was kind of nice because, I was able to do some of my work experience to like, hey, you know, let's get my type A personality going here. Yeah. So (laughs). Yeah. So that's how I fell into it. And I was there for almost two and a half, three years. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: Yeah. I continued on with it. He was just like, yeah, you're staying on. I'm like, okay. (laughs). Meyer: Aw. Saldivar: Yeah. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 7 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Meyer: Well, it sounds like you were really essential to the early space. Saldivar: I want to say I am, I guess. I mean, I was just in it because I felt like it was such a great opportunity to create a space for students who, didn't feel like they belonged on campus. And just to be with great minds who want to think big and create a culture and a system of, what do you call it? Just, you know, integrate a lot of things on campus that wasn't there. And it was, I felt like it was one of, what do you call it? Now, I'm looking back like I'm, when I was young I was like, “I’m in it. This is fun. Yay!” Just go ahead and do this because, you know, I just want to be part of it and I'm now looking back like, I was in an incubator. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: I literally was in a startup not realizing it was a startup. So yeah. I was kind of looking back like, oh dang, (laughs). I did all that. Oh— Meyer: You were at the beginning of something really big. Yeah. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: So it sounds like the Cross-Cultural Center, or the Multi-Cultural Center as it was called, was a lot smaller when you started. Saldivar: Oh my gosh, yes (both laugh). Meyer : How would you say it was different when you started and when you left? Saldivar: Oh my gosh. We had people (laughs), the campus community actually knew what the CrossCultural Center was. So that was really, it was so interesting to see within the two-and-a-half, three years how much it had grown. When I started it was just me and Alexis in this small little room, red couches, you know, we had some posters up. We had a bookcase full of just some, you know, books that we called “our library” (laughs). Now that, I think have a huge like, depository of information that people can have resources to. But at that time we didn't even have this library, so it was-Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: I know it's hard to imagine (laughs). So there wasn't like a lot of resources focused on DEI (Diversity and Equity) work, you know, even it was even called DEI work at that time. It was just called, you know, you know, diversity and multiculturalism. So a lot of the lingo has even changed from the time I was there to now. I think what, I mean, just breaking it down to even certain years, the first year was just building, just building a foundation, getting down what is the Multi-Cultural Center about what’s its place on campus and how can we be in collaboration and community with all the other centers that were even being established. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So it was nice that it was a really good time for the Cross-Cultural Center, Women's Center, um, the LGBT (Lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, and transgender) Center, the Pride Center, all those centers kind of Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 8 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 working together to build each other up. You know, we knew that it was important to have these centers, but we didn't wanna have just one centralized one that filled everything. Its like, no, we need to really, I don't wanna say--segment them. But we, they did needed to be segmented because there's all different sorts of needs for each one. But we also wanted to work together as, you know, we are here together as a whole but specifically they could help you with these certain things. You know. So we were, that was such a great time in where we didn't, we weren't fighting for resources and I think still they're not fighting for resources, so, which is good. So we started in Craven Hall, the small little area, and I think what really helped was just having students come and just hang out and know there's a space for them. Yeah. It ended up being a lot of API (Asian Pacific Islander) students of course. So, you know, it kind of, it was hard to get that stigma off for a while that's like, “Oh, that's the Asian Center.” It's like, no, we're actually open to a lot more people. But it just happened to be a lot of Asians in here. Meyer: You're not the first person who said that. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: I’ve heard that a few times. Saldivar: Yeah. I know Floyd is still dealing with that. (both talking) Meyer: Yeah, Floyd mentioned that. Saldivar: I’m sorry, I'm so sorry (laughs). Myere: No— Saldivar: Because what, what was nice about the, the, the Multicultural Center or when it changed to the Cross-Cultural Center was that it was a nice incubator for student organizations to start too. There was, since there's no space for folks, there's no space to grow. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: And no space to, to create communities. And so that's kind of what happened with the CrossCulture Center--well, I like Cross-Cultural Center, but it's Multicultural Center--back then Multicultural Center (laughs) was, it was an incubator for, for student orgs (organizations). So Kamalayan Alliance actually started from there. The Filipino organization that me, and actually my husband was a part of the, the found founding group. Yeah. So we founded that and it's crazy to see how far they are. And I was, oh god, 20 something years later. Oh, that makes me feel old. And they're like, “Oh yeah, 26th anniversary.” I'm like, “has it been 26 years?” Meyer: You're like, can we say 15 maybe? Saldivar: Can we just say anniversary? Just, just leave the number out. Meyer: Yeah (both laugh). Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 9 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: It's crazy to see how many generations have gone through that. I know--what do you call, APSA? The Asian Pacific Student Society? The Vietnamese group. I know we also helped, and this was later on also, you know, the Black Student Union, things like that. And kind of just developing and growing and finding spaces to find each other. And then being able to create that community. And then if they needed to go off and do their own thing, that was fine too. But we just were happy that, hey, people found each other through here and they were able to do something and create action. So that was kind of a really, something that I hold dear to my heart is that there was a space for students to do that and to find friendships and god, I don't know how many of them got married to each other. Meyer: Aw. Saldivar: (laughs) There’s a lot of people that are like, oh, you're still together. We're still best friends and now y'all have kids. And it's crazy how much the, the, that space had, impacted so many people so many years later. Meyer: Wow. Yeah. Saldivar: So I guess, so what else happened there? I mean, there's just so much (laughs). We did move three times, the time I was there, so it was nice that they realized this space is too small for us. They ended up, the main office ended up taking note of how many students were coming in a day. So then they could show to, I don't know, the chancellor, the provost, I still don't understand the hierarchy. And I'm a student and I'm in higher ed(ucation). And I was like, what (laughs) You know, they're like, there's a need here. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: You see what's happening is that these students are coming in, they're using the space, they're doing this, this, this, and this. So they were provide--so us, us students just hanging out and chilling and doing whatever we're doing there. They were using us, as I won’t saying using us. But, you know, they were using us as a case study saying, “Hey, this is something important to us. Look what's happening. We need a bigger space.” And so what was nice is that through, I think between 2005, five and six or six or six or seven, we ended up moving us to the bottom floor of the Craven Hall. Or was it the first floor? It's one of the, the lower ends. Which was nice because not only was it semi-visible to, the students now, because people would have to walk by the center to get to the one stop. And we were in front of that really nice, painted mural. But they also, it was a bigger space. It was an awkward space, but it was bigger. It was this weird triangle and were like, how are we gonna fit anything? So it was really weird, like sectioned off stuff. It was weird. But what was nice is that because of being more visible people were able to see, “Hey, wait, what's going on in there? Oh, that looks cool.” Then we were able to even promote more of our programs and be like, hey, have you guys heard of this? Or, you know, here's a flyer, here's A-frames. Things like that. The red couches still, still came with us because the red couches came (both laugh) wherever we went. Everybody knew us by the red couches. I think, that was really one of the key things that brought a lot of students in, because you know, I mean, before we just had-Meyer: Benches Saldivar: Benches. And basic chairs. And it was not comfortable. It didn't feel welcoming. People like, “Hey, you wanna take a nap? We got some red couches.” People just pass out there next thing (Meyer Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 10 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 laughs) you know, they made it a home. You know. Other things that happened in there was when a lot of programming was starting to be developed. So I was there as the assistant for about six months until the new semester kicked in. And me and Alexis had come up, helped develop the peer educator program. So the peer educator program consisted of four peer educators. I was kind of the main lead one. Jay (Franklin) was hired on as, the LGBTQ peer educator. And then there was Brittany, which I forgot her, what her specific one was. And then there was Stephanie who was like spiritual and religious. So we were kind of sectioned off into certain areas of our expertise to kind of help reach out to those groups. At that time it kind of worked because it was such a small population of the students, we could do that. As time has gone on, they just made 'em all peer educators and they were just kind of more cross trained in everything and anything. And whoever had those expertise would be kind of referred to. So it became more of a referral system than it was like, “Oh, you go to Jay because he's specifically this identity.” But it was great because we were able to all really learn from each other. Oh yeah. And then there was Cher, how can I forget, I forgot Cher. Cher is fun. Cher just, her (laughs) demeanor was so different, she was, very introverted, but once you got to know her, oh, she had the most sassiest mouth ever. And I'm just like, “Cher! We can't say that!” (Both laugh) But she was great. She, we, we came really close. And I think that's what I love about being in that peer educator program that we became really close. You know, we were all in it brand new. First of all, we were all students of color, so we're like, oh my god, there's more you know (laughs). And it was a great learning opportunity for all of us. So the things that we didn't know or understand, it was a safe space for us to explore that. So as peer educators, you know, we came up with some programming for the students. So we did things, and it kind of kind of all organically came together. You know, one, one of the things that we all worked on was called Multicultural Mondays. So on Mondays, once or every twice a month, I forgot what days.(laughs). There was a, you know, a certain schedule to it. We would, look at certain identities or things that would be meaningful for the students to wanna explore. So just kind of added programming to it. One of the things that I love that I hold dear to my heart was one of the programs we did called “Dinner Dialogues.” That was a very pricey program, but it worked (laughs). I'm like, “Do we have a budget?” (Both laugh) I didn't know what that was. I'm just like, “Can I have money for this?” Meyer: Well, Jay was saying, getting people in with food always worked. Saldivar: Oh gosh. Yeah. We ended up having a fridge and a microwave, but until we moved down to the, to the second floor. So yeah. That's one of things. Like we got food, we got pizza because, the campus was a food desert. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: We had nothing other than the Dome (food services originally operated by San Diego State University’s Aztec Shops). And the Dome was one of, first of all kind of expensive, and two, it was gross (both laugh). It was, oh. Oh no. So one of the things that we came up with called Dinner Dialogues, and it was a really great, I wanna say experience of how that organically happened as a program. It was just a bunch of students, hanging out in the Cross-Cultural Center past four o'clock, which was very rare because nobody wanted to be on campus past two. Usually the classes ended at two, you were gone. But these students felt safe. They felt home. They felt like, this is where I want to be. So we all ended up just getting food. I think this was when Chick-fil-A opened and we all got free, what do you call it? Chicken sandwich passes. Meyer: Right. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 11 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: So we all went got like (laughs), thirty-five sandwiches. Oh, it was crazy. And yeah, we all sat there, we're just all eating. And we started talking about-- it was my, my good friend Jacob Dansler, he was, Black male and it was some of us and we were all, you know, all from different backgrounds and stuff. And we were talking about some of the challenges that we've had as a person of color or what it mean to be a man of color, or a woman of color or, you know, LGBQ person of color. And it was really cool to kind of just sit there and have that kind of dialogue with each other and learn and be able to ask questions that were, I wouldn't say in, in a way that we didn't feel like we were being judged for asking these questions. It was a very safe space and a space for learning and, and feeling, you know, we actually have a lot more in common than we realized. And people were like, you know, we need to make this a program. This is cool. I would love to have these kind of spaces where we could talk about these things like this. And so that's where Dinner Dialogues ended up coming out and we're like, yeah, free meal, but at the same time, let me talk with you about things that maybe we don't have these opportunities to talk about all the time. So it was really great. That program kicked off really well and we had ended up having, I think it was for two years until I actually ended up leaving. And then I don't know what happened if it continued or if it morphed and changed ‘cause it always changes with people who come in. But yeah, I think that was one of really one of the main things that kicked off there. And then Jay, because he was the LGBTQ peer educator, he also was able to bridge a lot of the communities together and start, start planning out the Pride Center. And so that was kind of really nice in where the, the Multicultural Center was the hub of creating more and building more and growing out. So while he was there, we worked together in supporting not only the, oh gosh, LGBT group, but then also, okay, how are we gonna get a space for these students as well? So that was a really big achievement for Jay and for the Cross-Cultural Center in that sense. And it was nice that we were able to support each other in building those communities. You know, mine was Kamalayan, his was-Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, the pride, oh, we call it, I think Britney was helping with the BSU (Black Student Union) part, things like that. So we were all there to support each other, support the students and just, I don't know, we were just doing it because we wanted to. It's just ‘cause we had the passion for it and we loved it. I don't think we—it was like fully intentional what we were doing. And until we're like, oh crap, look what we did (laughs). Meyer: Yeah. You wanted to create a space for you and the people on campus and it just kept being a space. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: That's great. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: All right. Saldivar: I know, I think I've-- there's so much. I hope I'm catching everything (laughs). Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 12 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Meyer: No, you're, you're actually answering some of the questions before I even ask 'em, which is great-- (both talking) Saldivar: Oh, perfect. Okay good. Meyer: Yeah. How did it, how did the Cross-Cultural Center help you develop and express your cultural identity? Saldivar: Oh gosh. I think it made me, I think it was, it was, that was just one of the many layers upon my education studies here. Because in my communications major, and because minoring in sociology and ethnic studies, those classes helped me really look internally of who I was, what my identities meant, how they came across to, to the students, to the people that I work with. You know, really being able to put all that theory and then the Cross-Cultural Center allowed me to put it into practice. Oh god, I sound old (laughs). Meyer: No. Saldivar: Being able to put those together. I'm like, ah, makes me (unintelligible). Meyer: No that's, that's a great way to put it. Yeah. Saldivar: Yeah. And I think that helped me a lot in regards to the development of who I was becoming and who I am now. You know, coming into a college, like I said, you know, first gen(eration) Chinese, Filipino-American, I'd like, what does that, what did that mean to me? You know, even when I, I went into college, I didn't even know, I didn't even know that I was considered first gen. I was just like, yeah, I'm going to college because everybody says I should, or, you know, my parents weren't able to go and they said I should go, so I'm gonna go, you know, you just don't have that frame of reference until you get into a space. They're like, “Oh, are you the first one to go in your family? Oh, so you’re the first gen.” Wait, what, what does that mean? So, and so, you know, not realizing there's the support systems and things like that to help you and understand and develop that. And I think that's what really helped me was with that Cross-Cultural Center is to be--is to meet not only my community and people and friends, lifelong friends, who’re gonna help me, you know, be where I am today. But also meeting the mentors and the folks who do the work and how they've helped me understand more of, I guess the practice and, and the acknowledgement of like, it's okay to be uncomfortable. You know, it's, it, it's it, you have to be uncomfortable with the un-- you have to be comfortable with the uncomfortable, you know, these are things that I don't know, and it's okay not to know. You know, you're gonna move into certain spaces where you're gonna feel uncomfortable and how do you unpackage that? How do you take that and make it into a learning opportunity? And that's one thing that Dilcie Perez has-- she taught me throughout my time being there. She was such a great guidance and mentor for me that I give her kudos to everything about what I do with the work that I do. I remember when I was asked to return back for the, 15th-year anniversary of the Cross-Cultural Center, and they asked me and Jay to be speakers, I was like, “Oh, good lord, what am I supposed to talk about?” (both laugh) There's so much to talk about! And it took me a while to realize what I wanted to say. And it came back in, to the fact of being intentional. And that always stuck with me. The one thing that Dilcie always said to me, she was like, what's your intentions on what you know, of what you're doing? Why are you doing this? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 13 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Meyers: Um-Hm. Salvidar: So I wasn't just doing something for the sake of doing it, but just to understand, you know, is there an impact? What are the consequences? What is the bigger picture that you're trying to achieve? Even (Former Dean of Students, Gregory) Toya was a really great, mentor and where he asked, “What are the students learning outcomes?” I was like, students what (laughs)? What, what? He's like, yeah. Why are we putting on this? Why are you putting on this project? Or why are you putting on this program? What do you want the students to learn? So that really gave me a great foundation and understanding of, why am I doing this? Just, am I doing it for the sake of doing it? Is it self-serving, or is it really here for the students? And being kind of in a, in a selfish (selfless?) teaching moment. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So I, I wanna say that the Cross-Cultural center really helped me build, you know, a framework or a lens of how I move forward in doing whatever I do or move, as I grow up, you know, it's like, oh my gosh, it made me mature (laughs)! Meyer: They gave you a little toolkit with all the stuff you-Salvidar: Right. Meyer: You needed for adult life. Saldivar: Exactly. And I, and I thank them for that. ‘Cause now that I'm, you know, now in kind of their space. In their spot. It's so weird to have that flip in where I was looking for mentors who look like me or who I could connect to. But now I'm in that space and where I'm the mentor and where I'm reaching out to students say, “Hey, I see you. Let me, you know, I'm here for you. If you need a space or someone to talk to, I'm here.” You know, and it's so weird to be in that odd spot (laughs) right now, but it's because of them that they were such great models by example that I now have those skills and that toolkit to be like, okay, you know what? I know what it feels like to be in that spot. Let me help you get to where you wanna be. Let me help you unpackage what's going on with your lives and things like that. You know, just an example was a couple weeks ago I had a grad student, who identifies as Chinese American reach out to me. And she's like, I wanna be in where you are at in doing marketing and communication. But how do I, you know, deal with the cultural, challenges with my parents who want me to be in the medical field. Meyer: Um-Hm. Salvidar: And I was like, oh girl, let's talk (both laugh)! You know? And so it was really nice and, and I would say the experience of being, being able to talk to her and her just at the end feeling so relieved and feeling like she could find someone that she could connect to. Someone that she was able to be like, oh my god, I'm not alone in this feeling and this experience and it's okay to feel what I'm feeling. Was such an elated moment for me to be like, oh my gosh, I can still help students (laughs). You know-Meyer: You took that weight off her shoulders. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 14 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: Yeah. And it felt good to be, you know, I was there and I didn't have anyone to help me with navigating that. And I'm glad that I was able to be there for her to have those experiences that I could be able to connect with someone else who's going through the same thing. So yeah, the Cross-Cultural Center helped me grow a lot, Personally a lot. In understanding who I am, what space I take, what space I should take, you know, what being present means. In spaces that don't have many people of color or female people of color. Yeah. I mean it's (laughs). It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. Meyer: And I understand that you made a lot of friends there and met your husband at the CrossCultural Center. Saldivar: (laughs) Yes. Meyer: Tell us a little bit about how you guys met. Saldivar: Oh my gosh. (laughs). Meyer: Well, it's relevant to the Cross-Cultural Center, so. Saldivar: Right. Yeah. I mean, that's the funny thing. It's just, wow, y'all (both laugh) we're, we're like, y'all met and y'all married, now you have a kid. Okay! Meyer: So you're not the only ones. There's multiple. Saldivar: There were several people who, I would say yeah, got married some of our best friends and stuff. So me and Randy (Saldivar), met through a friend. It was not intentional when we first met. I was actually working with ASI at the time. So we were, I was at the cancer, one of the cancer walks, the Susan G. Koman cancer walks that we had on here at the field. I was a part of, you know, the walking team and my good friend Trish at the time, she was another Filipina-American and who were able to connect, was there with me to help support. And we were both at the check-in, check-in table at that time. And this is when we had the Nokia phones. Okay. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: This is how old it was. So she (laughs)--her. Randy had called her ‘cause I guess he was studying at the library. He was like, “Hey, what's up? What are you doing?” She's like, “Hey, come down.” You know, “I'm with my friend Dee, and we're at this thing, you know, just come and hang out.” He's like, okay. I didn't even know who he was. I didn't know who this guy was. She's like, oh, my friend's coming over. I'm like, okay, cool. I'm sitting there with my--I was in a Japanese 101 at this time, so I have my Japanese book out. I'm reading it, you know, he comes down with his boom box and (Meyers laughs) and I’m, I was like, what are you doing? He's like, oh yeah, you know, just B-boying. And I'm like, okay, cool. Whatever. You know, I didn't know anything about the hip-hop culture and stuff. And she's like, “Oh, this is my friend Randy, Randy this Dee,” I'm like, “Cool. Okay.” And he looks down and he is like, “Oh, you're studying Japanese?” I'm like, “Yeah, I'm in 101.” He's like, “Oh, I took it.” I was like, “Oh cool. How was it?” He's like, “Oh, it's really fun. He's like, do you need help with it?” I'm like, “No, I'm cool, thanks.” So (both laugh). So that's was my first initial meeting with him. Not even a thought. He was just a passing thought. And there was another time where they had the International Festival here on Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 15 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 campus, and it was me and Trish again. And we're eating Ramen sitting on the floor. Randy comes by, says hi again. And this is a time where we had the old school, film. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: So we didn't have phones or anything. It was just, yeah, he was going around taking pictures, right, and--but this is where you could actually get it digitally downloaded, which was weird. On a CD, and he had taken a picture of me and Trish and it wasn't until years later when we started dating where we're going through photos. And it was labeled “Trish and Friend.” Meyer: Oh my God. (laughs) Saldivar: I was like-Meyer: That's your wife. Saldivar: I was like, Randy, that's, that's me (both laugh). He was like, wait, what? He looks back, oh my god, I took a picture of you two (laughs). And we couldn’t stop dying. Just, we had all of these opportunities that we had met. And nothing. He wasn't attracted to me. I wasn't attracted to him. We had no clue. We even met each other. We're like, ah-ha. Cool. Okay. Bye. It wasn't until our friend Trish had decided when, you know after we were kind of starting the Cross-Cultural Center and stuff. It's, you know, let's create a, a student organization for Filipino-Americans or folks who were interested in the Filipino-American culture. Great. So she asked me to be on board. My friend Marvin, asked Randy to be on it, and her friend Katie. So it was the five of us. And we, we, that's when we literally first intentionally met each other. Like, oh, hey, okay. I thought of him as a little brother. I was like, cool (laughs), you know, whatever. And so then we would go to the Cross-Cultural Center, or the Multicultural Center to hold meetings just to hang out, you know? ‘Cause Alexis ended up being our advisor as well. So then we would ask him, okay, how do we, you know, how do we start this (student organization)? Or what are things that we need to do? You know, we ended up having our first GBM, you know, and, and saying, okay. So we started kind of building out the, the, the student org here and there. During that time there was probably about--we knew each other for about a good eight months by now. We just still friends. We just kil-, I don't even pay attention to him. He don't pay attention to me. We're just like, yeah, cool. Have you seen this movie? Cool. Have you seen this? Okay. Yeah. We're just hanging out. And then, masquerade ball was around the corner. And all of us were like, yeah, let's go. Let's go to masquerade ball. Woo! You know, let's just dress up and dance. And it was my friend Trish who was like, “So have you thought of, what do you think of Randy?” And I was like, what do you mean what do I think of Randy? “Like, you know, what do you think of him? Like, you think he's cute or something?” And I was like, “Uh, he's okay. I mean, he's nice.” Like she, I, you know, she's trying to plant seeds in my head. On the flip end, she's planting seeds on his end. Meyer: Oh. Saldivar: “So what do you think about Dee?” I was like, what! Meyer: One of those friends-- Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 16 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: Yeah. Yeah. She's like, I see something, but you both don't see it. So she was playing matchmaker. And so one time, we were supposed to all meet and go to, a GBM meeting, or we call FCC, Filipino Collegiate Collaborative. So this is where, all the schools across San Diego, USC (University of Southern California), UCSD (University of San Diego), San Diego State and us (CSUSM) were supposed to meet all the Filipino American organizations. So we worked together outside of the school to work with other student orgs, which was really cool. So we were supposed to have our meeting, and it was supposed to be me, Trish, and Randy. And Trish was like, “Oh no, I'm sick. I can't go, but if you two wanna go.” I'm like, okay (laughs). Literally, that's kind of how it ended up going. “Okay. So, you wanna go to like, masquerade ball together?” “Sure. Okay.” So it ended up kind of being our first date in a sense. And then from there, you know, we were kind of dating and-Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: Because we were still involved in, you know, Kamalayan Alliance. We were coming, as you could tell to the center, he would help out and volunteer a lot, you know, and he saw, you know, Alexis, he's like, “Hey, another Filipino. Yay!” So, you know, we all started kind of building the community and you know, we're spending more time together. He's helping out a lot. And then next thing you know, it's, I'm the one who asked him out (laughs). I was like, so, you know what's going on? (Meyer laughs) And he is like, hey, yeah. I was like, “So do you wanna go out or something?” And he looks at me and he's like, “Yeah, sure. Where do you want to eat?” (Meyer laughs) I was like, “What?” “Yeah. You said you wanna go out, so where do you want to eat?” I'm like, oh my god, you’re so dense. (laughs). I was like, no, do you, wanna be, you know, exclusive? He was like, “Oh yeah. Okay, cool.“ Meyer: Where do you want to eat? Right? Saldivar: He's like, uh, so this-- it tells you so much about his personality. We are so different from each other (laughs), you know, and, he's such a great support. He, when we talk about it, we laugh about it. I'm always the very type A business type of person behind the scenes. Let's get the logistics and stuff going. He's the PR (public relations) of it all. He can talk people's ear off, he can find people's stories, he can connect with them. And then once he does a connection here, here's Dee. And then, you know, I get all this stuff taken care of (laughs). So it was really cool. We've, we worked really well in tandem. And I, I'm surprised at the age that we were at, we were early twenties nobody knew we were dating. Meyer: Oh wow. Saldivar: We were very professional in a sense of where nobody knew in the student org or even sometimes in the Cross-Cultural Center that we were even together, we kept it very, professional. Didn't do the whole PDA (Public Display of Affection) thing. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: No. You know, we're not here to do that. We're here to serve our community. And I think at such a young age and stage of our relationship of being able to do that, helped us really kind of be able to be really good partners. In the sense where what we do here is for, you know, a different purpose versus what we do here. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 17 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Meyer: Right Saldivar: I think it was the one time (laughs) at a GBM, this is where the students really started growing. You know, we had almost forty to fifty members by the second, third year, and we had people come through the center and stuff. (laughs) When GBM, he went to go off to go get lunch and he is like, let me go grab something before the, the, the meeting and I'll see you. I'll be right back. And then he gave me a kiss. Everyone freaked out. They're like, oh, what? Meyer: Oh. Saldivar: They're like, what? (laughs) We’re like, what? They’re like what was that? (points, laughs), and we’re like, oh, y'all don't know yet? Like really a core small group of us. The ones right here knew, you know. Meyer: But everyone else. Saldivar: Everyone else, because I guess because they didn't hang out with us outside of the CrossCultural Center or at our house or when we went to the dinner and things like that. We really kept it. We, we didn't know we were that good at keeping it very separate. You know, when we go out to sushi or dinner, hang out at people's houses and we were, you know, completely different people. But we were in a school setting or the Kamalayan setting, we were very--we are officers, we are representatives of this, you know, this space. We need to be kind of, you know, professional. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So yeah. That moment that kiss happened, people were like, (gasps)? And we had people, no, you're lying. You're all lying to us. You just, no, you're trying to prank, someone was so sure we were probably, we were trying to just get a rise out of people. We're like, no, we've been together for like six months now. They're like, (gasps) no! (laughs). So it was, it was crazy. It was, that's how we ended up meeting, you know, he graduated in Kinesiology in 2009. Yeah. He--and what was nice is that in, he was also the president of Kamalayan, probably within the first two or three years. And the Cross-Cultural Center helped in creating a lot of the success of Kamalayan and where we had the first API (Asian Pacific Islanders) graduate ceremony. Meyer: Oh. Saldivar: Now that has been going on. And we used the center, oh my gosh, that was so crazy. (laughs). We had used the Cross-Cultural Center as a place to build the graduate, the, the planning of the graduate. And we also made the stoles. This is how we had no budget. So we went to Michael's (craft store) and bought the thickest red stole, I mean, red ribbon we could. Meyer: Oh yeah. Saldivar: And black puffy paint. Meyer: Oh no. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 18 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: And we're sitting there, (painting) 2005. Meyer: And that never looks even or clean. Saldivar: Oh no. It was a hot, ugly mess. (Meyer laughs) And you know, we put API grad and there's, you know we're trying to sit there and make it dry, so nothing's smearing. We had red ribbons everywhere and Alexis was like, what the heck is going on? I'm like, “We're making stoles!” (Both laugh) And he's like, oh boy. So I'm--yeah. A lot of the things that happened, like I said, the Cross-Cultural Center was an incubator. A lot of things was DIY (Do It Yourself). It was handmade. You had no budget. So what were we gonna do? You know, we had a lot of, thank goodness we had a lot of support from departments and different, areas with, other API folks who were like, yeah, we got budgets that we could go ahead and just hand over to you or, you know, we'll support you or sponsor you in this or sponsor you in that. So, oh, thank goodness for this community because I don't know if we would’ve got where we are today without really, the support of the school to see that there is a need and it wasn't coming up from the president or things like that. It was coming from the ground up. So that was really cool. Meyer: You were asking for what you needed, not having someone tell you. Yeah. Saldivar: Exactly. And they're like, oh, we--that's what made a, I think Cal State San Marcos such a unique school is that they listen to the people from the ground. It's not directives always coming from the top saying, hey, we need this, or you need to do this, or you need to do this. It's like, no, the students are saying something, how can we meet their needs? Type of thing. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So it's been really cool in seeing that dynamic versus a lot of other institutions that believe or think that, you know, this is what the students want, but not really listening to them. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: So yeah. So yeah, all in all, that's how me and Randy met. And we ended up getting married after I finished my master's program. And then now we have a child. Two of our other friends, Mike and Darlene met through, he was part of Kamalayan and she was a part of VSA, the Vietnamese Student Association. And we worked really well together, or we worked closely together and we ended up being, you know, in the Cross-Cultural Center as well. And so she ended up asking him out and he was like, “Sure, okay. I didn't know you liked me.” (Both laugh). And now they're together, married. And then other, there's another couple come Kamalayan Alliance that also was a part of the Cross-Cultural Center and they ended up doing, PCN together, Filipino Culture Night. Which was another thing the CrossCultural Center helped create and establishing a lot of that stuff too. And now they're married (laughs). So yeah, there's a lot of married couples coming out and just, you know, we're still really all in touch with each other. People have ended up, generations after us, one of our good friends Jael he was part of Kamalayan Alliance, I'm not sure if he was part of the board, but now he owns and runs his own polvorón company, called Papa's Polvorón. And where he's now has his--it started out as like a at home kitchen type of thing. And he was at the farmer's markets. Now he has his product in a lot of the Filipino stores, across the nation. So it's like, geez, (laughs). Meyer: Yeah. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 19 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: You know, it's really nice to see where all of the students and people who've been through the Cross-Cultural Center and where they are now. You know, and I think that's just one of the biggest rewards I see. Being a part of that community was like, wow, I was there to see y'all start like, “I don't know what I wanna do. I just wanna go and, eat all you can eat sushi.” To, now they're having families and having own businesses and doing great things and great work, you know? So Yeah. So yeah. That's how I met my husband (laughs). Long story short. Meyer: Well it's so intertwined with the story of the Center for you. So I think it's really cool the, you know. Yeah. Saldivar: When we, took our engagement photos we came back to the center, we came back to the campus because this has so much meaning for us. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know-Meyer: I'll add the pictures, to the file later. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: But, just so people know what you're talking about, the picture of you when you thought it was, like a conference and it was a surprise actually. Saldivar: Yeah. (laughs) Meyer: That’s that's really sweet. Yeah. What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing going forward as it coexist with these other identity-specific spaces? You said it's kinda like a support, an incubator, it helps kind of foster the activities of the other programs. Saldivar: Yeah. I think when, when it was in, during my time generation, that's what it was. Now, I mean, it's grown so much and where I, I want--in a sad way that I don't recognize it anymore, but that's a good thing. Because that means there has been growth and development and changes. And I'd rather see that than stay where it is stagnant-wise. What role it has now on the campus, I--I don't really know. Meyer: You've been off campus for awhile (laughs). Saldivar: I’ve been off campus for a while, so it's like, oh, I don’t know what it's gonna be. I mean, what they're doing now, it, it--and I want them to continue what they're doing: is to just continue to, to grow support, find changes. I mean, a lot of the things that I've seen is, you know, with their programming has changed. Which I think it's great, it's changing with the times and that's how all centers should be is, you know, they have to go with what's going on with the students. If they're not willing to change or, be flexible, then what's kind of, what's the purpose of the center? Meyer: Yeah. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 20 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: You know, that's kind of the (laughs) thing I could say because I mean, I've been so removed. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: I mean, other than coming back and, you know, being like, “Yay. Hi everybody.” I'm like-Meyer: You haven't been hands-on with the center for a while. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: Of course, of course. Saldivar: Yeah. I'm, I'm the person that used to be here years ago (laughs). “No, don't call me Auntie, please!” (Both laugh) Meyer: And are there any other memories you wanna share that, um, like I know there were retreats that you guys (video cuts out, battery ran down, audio recording) Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 21 2023-11-13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saldivar, Diana. Interview transcript April 14th 2023. Description An account of the resource Diana Saldivar is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Communications, Sociology and Ethnic Studies. Saldivar worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2004-2007 and was also involved in the Asian Pacific Islander Student Society, Kamalayan Alliance, and with Associated Students Incorporated (student government). In her interview, Saldivar discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center provided her with a sense of belonging on campus and served as a second home. Saldivar explains how the center provided her with lifelong friendships, skills and connections that has helped her become the person she is today. Saldivar recounts how the CCC provided a safe space, allowing for conversations with others that are often deemed controversial, and how the center encouraged those to constantly seek knowledge. This oral history was created in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Diana Saldivar Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madeleine Meyer Geneva Martinot Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-14 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance California State University. Multicultural Programs Filipino Americans Human rights San Diego State University Student success Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SaldivarDiana_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-14_transcript Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Karen Schaffman OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Schaffman, Karen. Interview June 6, 2025. SC027-084 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Karen Schaffman Jennifer Fabbi moving image SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5c41e45a9e19b8754a22c3428a572fc2.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 56 Experience with dance as a child and adolescent Schaffman reflects on being a lifelong dancer starting with her initial experience with dance as a child and her mother’s role in exposing her to dance. lifelong dancer ; mother ; Connecticut Ballet ; ballet ; jazz ; Hartford Conservatory 0 382 Formal education Schaffman details her formal undergraduate and graduate education in dance including a degree at the European Dance Development Center in Holland and a PhD in Dance History and Theory at University of California, Riverside. University of Massachusetts ; women's studies ; feminism ; gap year ; San Francisco ; improvisation ; Holland ; Germany ; California ; University of California, Riverside ; Feldenkrais Method ; Dr. Moshe Feldenkrais 0 874 Foundational theory and practice for Schaffman’s work Schaffman describes theories and practices that underpin her work including a somatic approach to dance, perceptual improvisation, dance dialects, and contact improvisation. somatics ; perceptual improvisation ; dance dialects ; contact improvisation ; performance and cultural theory 0 1802 Service to the community and profession Schaffman discusses her teaching, scholarship, and service and how she was able to differentiate her service from teaching and scholarship during the retention, tenure, and promotion process. teaching ; scholarship ; creative activity ; service ; David Avalos ; Susan Foster ; Lower Left ; Bonnie Biggs ; Mtfti Imara ; California Center for the Arts ; Andrea Liss ; Kristine Diekman ; Meryl Goldberg ; Center ARTES ; Marilyn Huerta ; Arts and Lectures ; curriculum 0 2233 International work Schaffman speaks to her work in and travels to different countries and the influence this has had on her life and career. global citizen ; intercultural exchange ; Europe ; Mexico ; Pachuca ; Day of the Dead ; Holland 0 2238 Plans in retirement Schaffman shares her plans for retirement including slowing down, participating in a training institute in Vienna, and coming back to teaching at CSUSM as part of the Faculty Early Retirement Program. Donna Ray ; Feldenkrais ; training institute ; Vienna ; Pilates 0 2456 Schaffman’s journey to CSUSM and evolution of the campus and curriculum Schaffman reflects on the evolution of CSUSM, especially regarding the growth of the dance curriculum and program, faculty, and guest artists. curriculum ; University Curriculum Committee ; dance minor ; Choreographies of Resistance ; Michael McDuffie ; Ranjeeta Basu ; Cheri Hill ; breadth ; active learning ; social justice ; diversity ; Arts and Lectures ; Dancing through Prison Walls ; Visual and Performing Arts ; space ; theater ; Anya Cloud 0 4019 Working during the Covid pandemic Schaffman talks about her work during the Covid pandemic and the rise of Black Lives Matter and murder of George Floyd. (keywords: pandemic, Black Lives Matter, George Floyd, online performances, Historically Black Colleges and Universities, Mtfti Imara, T. Lang, Melicia Taylor, Black artists, Zoom, Skyla Miles, Minnie Atkins, sabbatical, Think Gravity Dance Tank, symposium, Anya Cloud, Ishmael Houston-Jones, contact improvisation, Contact Dance International Film Festival, Makisig Akin) pandemic ; Black Lives Matter ; George Floyd ; online performances ; Historically Black Colleges and Universities ; Mtfti Imara ; T. Lang ; Melicia Taylor ; Black artists ; Zoom ; Skyla Miles ; Minnie Atkins ; sabbatical ; Think Gravity Dance Tank ; symposium ; Anya Cloud ; Ishmael Houston-Jones ; contact improvisation ; Contact Dance International Film Festival ; Makisig Akin 0 4486 Schaffman’s most impactful work Schaffman reflects on what she considers to be her most impactful work. She believes the creation of the Dance program at CSUSM is the most important accomplishment of her career. Debra Hay ; Lower Left ; dance program ; Summer Arts ; Think Gravity 0 5169 Additional projects and collaborations Schaffman adds a few more collaborative projects that she wants to give her colleagues and the University credit for. United and Severed ; Kristine Diekman ; traumatic injury ; PTSD ; palliative care ; Mindfulness Center ; Elizabeth Hospice Center 0 Oral history Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:29.614 Hello, this is Jen Fabbi, and today I am interviewing Dr. Karen Schaffman for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History program. Today is June 5th, and it is 2:10 p.m. This interview is taking place at Karen's office on the CSU San Marcos campus, where we are guests on traditional unceded Luiseño/Payómkawichum land. Karen, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:29.614 --> 00:00:31.545 Thank you. 00:00:31.545 --> 00:00:41.375 So to start off, can you tell me about your experience with dance as a child and adolescent and where you got your passion for dance? 00:00:41.375 --> 00:00:47.495 Great, thank you. And first, I'd like to begin by also thanking you so much for the opportunity to share my story, and it's really truly an honor in this moment of my life to have this interview. 00:00:47.495 --> 00:00:49.638 Absolutely. 00:00:49.638 --> 00:00:54.228 Thank you so much. 00:00:54.228 --> 00:00:56.064 You're welcome. 00:00:56.064 --> 00:01:30.356 My childhood story began with dance. So I've been dancing--I'm a lifelong dancer. And I began dancing as a kid. And very young. My mom, there was, we lived on the end of a street, and there was a summer creative dance program. I must have been two or three. I don't have the exact date from my mom. And that's where I fell in love with dance. I have some little picture somewhere stored away with me like in some kind of end of something performance. But it was on the playground, and it was outdoors,and that's where my dance career began. Dance for me--should I just ramble? Is that good? 00:01:30.356 --> 00:01:34.752 Yeah. 00:01:34.752 --> 00:05:45.834 Dance for me was always a sense of a place for me to belong and I'll say survive. I was very supported to go to dance through my whole childhood, but we were a middle class family, and so I relied on scholarships, I usually got them. I was seriously into dance. So I danced until I was probably in seventh grade, No, maybe sixth grade, like twice a week. And then I got into a dance company, and I had a child's part in the Connecticut Ballet, regional Ballet Company. So very early on was I in a very kind of intergenerational environment, and you'll hear through this interview that that's really important to my work and maturing as a still as a performing artist. So it was really, uh, that was like a turning point for me to be in that company. But it was also a time in my life where I had been studying ballet where--my body started to change and I knew that, and then peer pressure and things like high school and things like that. So I changed to modern dance and jazz. So at the time, jazz dance was really predominant. So that's my, just my, like, early days. But I think I'm really not getting to the heart of it with my mom, because my mom really shuttled me back and forth. She was a nurse and, uh, full time, so I had a lot of chores at home to do and things like that. But I always knew that after the chores, my mother was coming home from work and basically going back to the same neighborhood. And so, yeah, it was a really important time for me. My brothers were very into sports and at the time we didn't have Title IX, and I was not encouraged to do sports. I think I probably would've been a good athlete, actually, but I wasn't really invited or included. So dance was really a natural place for me to be physical. But I loved going to dance class. I loved--in the ballet--I was in a ballet conservatory. It was called the Hartford Conservatory. Again, I was one of the young ones there. And there was a live pianist. His name was Julius. And I just remember just loving going there. And I had two older brothers, and it was really, it wasn't a great home environment. My brothers were pretty rough on me to put it lightly. So going to dance was always a place for me to just go and be. And I had really, really good training. I have to be--I'm so grateful that I landed in those places because my teachers were very supportive, but they were also slow with me. They were like--I was called Little K--Little K, we're not putting you on point shoes yet because your ankles aren't strong enough. So I actually had really, really, really good training. So I'm very--I'm very, very grateful for that. My mom, later in life, showed me a letter that they were encouraging me to go to a performing arts high school, and my mother didn't want me to go. And it was after I got my PhD and a career in dance that she said, You know, I need to--it was like she needed to make amends. So she showed me the letter from the Hartford Conservatory encouraging my mother to put me in a professional program, but she didn't. So, but that's interesting. So I don't know where my career would've went at that time. But I stayed in. So, my time with dance was--but I was very, very shy, I have to say. So I grew into not being shy as I got older, but as a kid I was a very shy, and so people asked me to dance in front of them. I'd always be like, no, I--it's like I didn't, I wasn't one of those kids who would be like, get up on the table or get up in front of grandma and grandpa and show them what you do. So I was very, very shy as a kid. So dance was a place where I-- and performance was a place for me to go. Yeah. I could go on and on about that, but. 00:05:45.834 --> 00:06:22.134 Well, maybe it'll come up in some questions. Okay. So you have substantial formal education. You earned a BA in Dance and Literature at UMass Amherst, and an equivalent degree in experimental dance at the European Dance Development Center in the Netherlands, and also your PhD in Critical Dance Studies at UC Riverside. And please fill in anything that I missed. How did your formal education impact who you are as a professional? 00:06:22.134 --> 00:14:14.595 So I only applied to three schools for undergraduate, and it was not a given, but pretty much where I grew up in a very middle class family that I would go to college. I didn't get into Cornell. That was my first choice. I didn't know how I was gonna afford that anyway. And then University of Connecticut was my backup, but they didn't have a dance program, so I didn't really want to go there, but my parents encouraged me. And at the time, there was this five-hour radius of driving, like, it was very strict where we were gonna apply back then. And I was on my own, actually, my grandmother was very ill, and my grandparents had moved from Brooklyn to be next to my mom. So I got into a dance major program at University of Massachusetts, and it's a very good program. They had something called the Five College Dance Program, which is part of a consortium with Smith College, Hampshire College, Mount Holyoke, and Amherst. So I got to pay, it was still outta state, Massachusetts, but got to take advantage of the five college dance program. But even finishing my first year, I was like, something's wrong here. I didn't really like the dance program. It was very competitive. And even though I didn't have any issues with what they thought would maybe be too much weight in the wrong places or anything, they were very critical of other dancers. And I knew right at that age that I wasn't really jiving with that program. Though I was even teaching my first year 'cause I was very advanced. So they gave me the work study teaching, like for the university. So I kind of gave up that opportunity, and I dropped out of the dance program, and I did what was called a bachelor's degree with an independent concentration. So I did dance and literature. So I always continued dancing, but I took all of my dance classes in the five college area. So I kind of got this semi Ivy League or alternative school 'cause Hampshire is a very alternative education. And then I took other classes at UMass, but UMass just opened my eyes up to many things. I did musical theater there and, but my dance and literature was really, really important because I did a lot of, what we called then, well, was--it was UMass had one of the first women's studies programs. So I did a lot of women's literature and I did, I learned about feminism, I was like, this was like my awakening. Yeah. I took a lot of what we call then third-world women's writing and literature courses. So I'm not from the third world, but we don't even use that phrasing anymore. But UMass was in the forefront of politics in the body at the time. So, it's interesting how that became, came back and around. So I had a great education there. I did take what we call now a gap year at the time 'cause I needed to get out into the world. And then I went, I lived in San Francisco for a while and then I knew I wanted to live overseas or go overseas, but I didn't wanna be a tourist. So I got in--there was no internet or anything then. So I was studying in San Francisco with Joe Good in a summer workshop. And this woman who's now well known in New York, Sarah (now I show my absent mind). Sarah Mickelson said, you should go here. She was British. and so there was a school in Holland, and they take two guests a year, and they accepted me with like my CV and a cover letter and a letter of recommendation. And I had no money. My parents were not supporting me at all in this phase of my life. I was waitressing in San Francisco and doing dictation. I worked on the first little Mac box. And I got a loan--I think I'll share this--from the Hebrew Free Loan Association. They gave me $2,000 up front, but I had to pay, start paying back $50 a month. And off I went to Europe, and I paid my tuition. And so I had like, I don't know, I had only like $500 left in my pocket, and I went to the school in Holland. And that basically just changed my life. So it was very alternative. And it was very much based in improvisation, but many of the teachers were coming from either England or the United States, from New York. So it was kind of the New York, the downtown scene, all of the people who were working with somatics in the body. So really doing deep research in terms of inner sensation and anatomical release it was called. So it was a very particular kind of dancing. And I was just like, I would just, I was just mind blown. I would stand there in the studio and somebody would do a performance where they would just take ten minutes to raise their arms. And it was the most beautiful thing I ever saw in my life. I was like, okay, what is this? And then the school split. They opened a new school in the town called Arnhem, and I went to Arnhem, and I spent two years there. And I had an amazing experience there with many amazing artists that I'm still, some of them I'm still in touch with. And I've curated, actually, here at the school and in summer arts. And so I went to there, changed my life. And then I got a job teaching in Germany before Germany had master's degrees in dance. And I worked in a conservatory environment there in a clown and dance school, So I taught at a clown and dance school for three years. And that was a great experience. But at the time I was involved with someone. I had to make a decision. So I decided to move to California. And, I was, What am I gonna' do here? And that's a longer story, but there was a brand-new program that I was thinking about getting a master's, but because I became so open to this other way of dancing, there was really no master's programs at the time that I was interested in, except maybe in New York. And I was like, Well, I live in California now. But there was a brand-new program at UC Riverside. It was the third year, and it was one of the very, among the very first top three universities that gave a PhD in dance. And so when I saw the poster in the back of one of these magazines called Contact Quarterly is how I found out about it, I was like, Oh, wow. So I went and I sat in on a few seminars and I was like, I wanna go there. So I applied. And so then I went to UC, Riverside. And it's really a groundbreaking program in terms of dance studies, the field of dance studies, which is different than just getting a degree in dance. Yeah. Dance studies is really about the political, social, and cultural impact and of the body and dance in the world. So that's what I did. And then I have one more education that I did that's very extensive called the Feldenkrais Method. So thank you to this university who partially funded that education. Yes. It's a four-year program, and it's based on the somatic educational method. And it's based on research of someone named Dr. Moshe Feldenkrais, and he was part of the human development generation. Yeah. He was also born the same year as my grandfather in the Ukraine, which was interesting. But he had a knee injury. He was one of the first white people, men, white men, to learn judo. And he learned judo, and he brought a lot of Eastern philosophy into this body modality. So it's not a dance training, it's really about finding ease in your own movement. So I still do that now. I bring that into all I do. And so I have, those are my key big degrees. 00:14:14.595 --> 00:14:34.754 So following up on that your focus for your career for the last several decades has been on somatics, perceptual improvisation, contact improvisation, and performance and cultural theory. Can you tell me a little bit more about these areas of focus? 00:14:34.754 --> 00:18:27.000 Yes. So you had somatic, perceptual improvisation, cultural theory, and contact improvisation? Yeah. So a somatic approach to dance, or the body, has to do with more about feeling than how it looks. It's really about inner sensation and really getting in touch with oneself on a very cellular level, if I can speak that way. It's more about embodied and lived experience and of course, that has cultural and impact culturally and through people's cultural history and ancestry. But it--and it really includes this very sensorial based way of dancing and through the world. So it's not about how it looks like, for example, like ballet where you have to look a certain way or something, but really about an inner sensorial world that brings forward the dance or the healing or whatever. So it's, it's an ancient way of being with oneself before we had technologies and things like that. So that's the somatic piece. Is that clear kind of? It is? And then perceptual improvisation really has to do with, again, responding to the conditions. So it's a little bit more related to the visual art world. And one of my areas that I researched, well, probably since I'm a kid, but is visual art. And I also studied--I took Harvard summer school one summer way, way back when, and I did video when it was a three-quarter inch and you sit down (unintelligible). So I did some--I've studied some videos. So I'm, it's really about--how do I explain perception improvisation on an interview like this? Let's see. Something about how do we, how do we perceive the world? So it's, it really does relate a lot to visual arts in terms of perspective and visual field and responding, but could be your auditory field as well. So it's related to somatics in that way. It also is really, really related to Eastern thought, which is about inner perception and meditation and things like that. So I've cultivated a more contemplative way of approaching dance as well. Yeah. It comes from, I wouldn't say I am a Buddhist or anything like that, but I've studied Eastern philosophy. I've done a little bit of martial arts, just a little bit. So I've kind of come at it with that. And then cultural theory is dance and cultural studies. Dance studies is really a blend of dance and the field of cultural studies. So we're really looking about diversity in dance, and we're considering not just a European perspective of dance, which becomes very stereotypical. And so it's changed so much then. But it's really the dance studies field really emerged out of celebrating and analyzing, honoring the histories and practices of diverse cultures across the world. I mean, there's so many dance dialects that around the world. So dance studies really opened my eyes up to how big the world of dance is and how much of an impact it has politically and socially on our identity and things like that. So everything we learn about dance can be applied to (unintelligible). Dance studies can be applied to any field, really, in my opinion, because it has so much to do with the politics of the body. Yeah. 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:28.000 That's really interesting. 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:35.444 Yeah. Yeah. And I bring that here to Cal State. 00:18:35.444 --> 00:18:43.535 So how have your areas of focus benefited your students? Many students over the years? 00:18:43.535 --> 00:23:12.493 Well, and I did talk about contact, so I'll bring that back 'cause that's what my area of research was about. I think I should say something about contact now. Is that okay? So my PhD was based on contact improvisation, which is, brings together all of those other practices--somatics, perceptual improvisation, dance technique, and then cultural studies. So I was looking at something that emerged from the fifties and sixties, which was a huge art movement in New York and really influenced a lot of people. And it was based on gravity and momentum and touch. So contact improvisation. My dissertation was really also a lot about touch and how contact improvisation, which is a touch-based dance form. It's like what happens when two bodies move together? And with gravity and momentum? Now we do this, people do this, not me, in tango, in salsa, and all sorts of dance traditions around the world. But contact has a particular aesthetic. And so it might look like something, but it's so much based in sensorial awareness. So this was--has been--a big part of my life is contact improvisation. And so--but contact improvisation sometimes universalizes this idea of what the body is. So my dissertation also took that apart and down a bit that said, No, this is very particular as a particular way of moving. It's not universal. Not everybody does it, you know, things like that. So anyway, it's a longer discussion, but I bring all of that into San Marcos when I--CSUSM--when I came here there was no program. And so it was clear to me that I was starting in a very challenging place but also really exciting place. One of the reasons I took the job here--I got an offer at a school that was already established as well. Because dance, dance for here, the byline here is that dance is for everybody and every body. And that this would be an inclusive environment and that this would be an environment that welcomes all students. So it would not be conservatory driven or even wanting to go in that direction. Even though we would be working on our technique, on our awareness--we would use words like awareness rather than virtuosity. You know, virtuosity is great, but would be more about awareness. So it's a very inclusive environment. And I think I was highly successful at that. And that is actually happening. So I think that's the biggest thing. But the students always are like, it's really different here. When people come to visit or high schools come always like, oh, it's really different here because it's really about community and there's a lot of support. We don't just dance. We talk about where we're at. We take a weather report. What's going on? One word, you know, everybody share a word. How do you feel today? We talk about access needs. We don't make assumptions in the class that everybody's gonna do everything. So there's a lot of that. So it's really with what my friend, Anya Cloud, collaborator, brought the phras--she was a lecturer here for nine years--"Dancing with the body you have." So yeah, no assumptions. No assumptions. Yeah. And also adaptability. access needs, cultural backgrounds, what's going on in the world. We don't ignore, we don't go, you may get a great escape in a dance class, but dance studies is not about this dream. that dance helps me escape the world. It's basically the opposite. It's really about grounding in the reality and what am I dealing with and what are the conditions right here and now? So I've cultivated those kinds of values here. And then the other big thing is because I went to Riverside, early on I brought in that students need to relate whatever we're learning in the class. almost every, and almost--not all classes, but many classes are like--how do you relate this to your major or something you care about in the world? Because dance is always in dialogue. We're always in relationship to the world. 00:23:12.493 --> 00:23:14.733 That's really, it sounds very unique. 00:23:14.733 --> 00:23:28.015 Yes, it is. (laughter) It's a unique program that that emerged. And, um, yeah, see where it goes, too, so I'm hopeful. 00:23:28.015 --> 00:23:35.375 So what has scholarship and creative activity looked like in your career as a professor of dance? 00:23:35.375 --> 00:24:20.000 Um, in my career? Or just, what was, can you repeat the question? I'm sorry. I was looking at my note up before that. I just said at the end, I wrote myself a little note about my area of focus. "It's fun and entertaining, but it's also much more than that." I talk to students. First of all, it's more than just the steps. We're not gonna just learn phrases in here and look in the mirror. I wanna add that students freak out 'cause in many classes we're like, let's close the curtains. Like, we don't always have to--and that's the somatic aspect, okay, is can you feel this movement? Why are you staring at yourself in the mirror? The mirrors can be very helpful, but, so I just wanted to sort of add that. 00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:33.743 So the, the question, the question was, as a professor of dance, what does scholarship and creative activity look like to you? 00:24:33.743 --> 00:24:36.664 Oh. 00:24:36.664 --> 00:24:47.233 And, and one, so in your CV, you also give example, a lot of examples of curated performance processes.And so are those things related? 00:24:47.233 --> 00:29:24.000 They are, for me, but in terms of teaching, I think it relates again to students who find--for our students here--is to find the connection of what dance does for the world and how it is universal. And if it's not, it's because it's being policed, right? By a government that won't allow dance. And like, where are we going now? So the scholarship in dance is about the awareness of what the body can do, like in music or visual art. You know, like we have art history, but we only have dance historians that take it really seriously. And there's tons of books now about dance. But in terms of curation, that's like a separate thing. Yeah. So my own scholarship has been that I've done a lot around--writing about contact improvisation and presenting on that. But I often combine my creative projects with political and historical research. So, for example, a project that was before--that I didn't curate, that I was invited on was like a European project based on a fictional choreographer named Veronika Blumstein. So I ended up spending like two years on that. And then she comes back every now and then, came back during COVID. I was like, okay. Somebody invited me 'cause they were interested in my work with Veronica. And so these Polish and German artists and one person from Slovenia came together in a research project. And they didn't know what to do. And for some reason, at the time, the zeitgeist at the time was a really, like a lot around healing in terms of World War II and the European Holocaust and genocide there. And so, and then the Polish people were so impacted by the war in another way. So this opened up a huge pot of research for me by looking into Veronika Blumstein. And I lived in Europe, but I had never gone into some of my own personal roots. And so I did a lot of ancestral work at the time. And then through that project many things came up because they wrote a fictional--they wrote about a fictional character who happened to be a Jewish woman who escaped and went to New York and studied with all these people that were like part of my own dance lineage. So it became a lineage project. So in that way, I was like weaving together all of these different things. Now, like curation is kind of, I'm, it happens globally, but I know it because I've spent so much time in Europe, like this kind of careful 'cause curation--because they have different funding sources. So in the US, our, the field of dance curation has grown so much and it's--there's so many amazing people doing great projects. But my work in curation, well, I just recently did this Think Gravity Project, which we'll talk about. But I did a big project called the Live Legacy Project. And so I was invited by a former classmate of mine from the school I went to in Holland Center for New Dance Development, which became European Dance Development Center. And we did a whole cultural history on how dance migrated from US and Ukraine, uh, Ukraine--US and the UK through the Dutch school into Germany. So she was living in Germany and the German government gave a huge sum of money to this curation. So we had a symposium that resulted in a film, but we brought together many dance elders and then the younger generation. So it was a big intergenerational project. So we had workshops. So we did everything at the symposium. It wasn't a talking symposium. We had the workshops, intensives alongside the talks, alongside the films. But everybody went to everything. So it wasn't like, I will choose at a conference, it would be like a symposium for a hundred people. And then they came to everything. It was very, very well documented. They all experienced everything together. Yeah. So it's like educational and creative all at once and people got to share their work. Okay. So in that way, like the curation is a way to bring about a living archive. So I'm interested in curation that's very much alive. Does that make sense? 00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:26.222 It does. 00:29:26.222 --> 00:29:35.275 Okay. There's a lot of topics we're we're hitting now, so I hope they're making sense. 00:29:35.275 --> 00:29:47.000 They are. So, you talk, have talked a lot about, you know, previous to this interview about your involvement with Arts and Lectures on campus. 00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:48.809 Yes. 00:29:48.809 --> 00:30:02.505 And so, like a more broad question is what does campus and community service look like in your career over the years? But I know that Arts and Lectures, you know, we talked about as being a substantial-- 00:30:02.505 --> 00:33:42.000 Yes. Well, before I get into Arts and Lectures, what's interesting is I'm flashing now to David Avalos, who was a mentor for me. And, he really helped me when I arrived here, especially with my file, because I, like my service and my scholarship and my teaching all intertwined. And the committees at first didn't really get that. So he had me write this intro and it was really helpful. And so I also share that forward with other people I'm on committees with because it's known now. But even twenty years ago when I was a PhD student, we didn't do a practical PhD. Now there's many practicing dance PhDs. And at the time, one of the most famous godmothers of dance studies, my mentor, Susan Foster, said, Karen, you need to put dancing aside for a while. Get reading, get writing. And I didn't really do that at the time. I still was, I had a very active performing career, and I was curating with a group called Lower Left in San Diego. So it's just like doing way too much. But that's what I did for a large, most of my life. So it's that intertwining of these things that I think is really important. That my service here was always intertwined with my own work in the classroom. Because also, I was performing with students or creating performances with students both at the, in the early years. And it was like, that was my service. I didn't get course release or it wasn't counted as a class, even though I was teaching a class or a project that added another ten hours a week for six to eight weeks. So that's what we do, though. We dance. You gotta make the work. It doesn't fit into a four hour a week class. So my service really got intertwined entwined with dancing. But then I got involved right away because I had been curating in Europe. I had been cur--you know, when I was teaching at the clown school was my first curating. And then I, when I arrived here, I got involved with Bonnie Biggs from the Library, who was running Arts and Lectures, and she invited Mtfiti Imara, Dr. Imara, to do a performance. So that was another big project. He did a--he created a song that was called Power to the People. And I had a group of dancers. It was all extracurricular in our first year. We did a big performance at Center for the Arts in Escondido. It was amazing. And then Bonnie--oh, and then another curatorial thing was happening was Dr. Andrea Liss, who I collaborated with a lot, and Dr. Kristine Diekman. I mean, excuse me. Not Dr. Professor. (Kristine. I love you. You know, it's just as important. what you've done.) Okay. So they were doing a women's rights symposium. So in my second year or my first year--I can't remember, it's in the flyer (points to flyer). It was a really wonderful symposium. So I made a student piece for that, intergenerational. I was on a panel and then I also performed, they invited me. I did this piece in the late nineties called Monster Girl. And it was a very pop piece, feminist piece. And I wore, like, you know, I was standing on a Tide box and doing my soapbox and dancing to Mission Impossible. And it was just like wild. Blue wig-- 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:43.000 I saw the box up there-- 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:44.882 Oh yeah. Blue wig. Oh-- 00:33:44.882 --> 00:33:45.617 --that says Monster Girl. 00:33:45.617 --> 00:36:43.000 Oh yeah. It has the handcuffs in it, too. I mean, it was just like this kind of rant about women's rights. And so they knew I did the piece. Kristine had actually seen it at Sushi Performance and Visual Arts in '98. So they invited me to perform that. So I kind of came off and running, like performing, early on a lot. I performed a lot less as the years grew on, and I became more administratively driven. So yeah, so that was a curatorial piece. And then Meryl Goldberg picked up Arts and Lectures, and I was on the committee when she was interim. And then she got started in Center ARTES, so I came on and that was a big part of my service for the University. I worked with Marilyn Huerta for many years and for about--I think I was running it for five years. I used to call myself the unofficial Director 'cause they didn't give me that position. That's what--didn't really didn't compensate me. It was just my service, but I can tell you it was more than nine hours a week. And we did between thirty-nine and forty-two events a year for many years. And even the language that's on the website, I'm like, maybe you should update it. No offense (no shade there, Gina, or the committee). Hey, if it's still working, I'm honored. You know, Meryl also came up with some of those, uh, invoke, inspire. So, but I really brought so many performances to this campus. I mean, Dance has always done at least two a year, but I could tell you this year, we got an IRA grant this school year. We did, I don't know, but there must have been--but I have other faculty working with me. So, but Dance Studies probably hosted at least twelve major public events open to the public. So a lot. So it's big. And then my other service to the campus was, I mean, I created the program. I wrote twenty-eight courses. Of course, they're not all offered. There wasn't any, there was a, few courses on the books, and I did keep one called Global Modern Dance, which I think is very sophisticated. Don Funes wrote that when he founded the program. And, I mean, I guess you probably have knew, you already know the history of this program. It started off as an interdisciplinary program, and then there was the desire to branch out into our own disciplines. But there's always been a desire to work cross-disciplinary and interdisciplinary. and Dance always does. We work with theater, we've worked with visual art, we've worked with literature and writing, we've worked with women's studies, we've worked with theater. And so I've done many projects with all of the faculty. I was actually hired as a collaborator that wasn't going--the job description was to be a collaborator. Even though it was for somebody in dance, was to be a collaborator. So I did that. I definitely did that. 00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:44.000 Yeah, you did. 00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:48.264 Yeah. Am I talking too fast, also? 00:36:48.264 --> 00:36:50.815 I think that you are doing just fine. 00:36:50.815 --> 00:36:55.025 Okay, great. Okay. It's a lot. 00:36:55.025 --> 00:37:13.000 Okay. So you've done a substantial amount of international work, and you talked about your desire to live overseas and not be a tourist. And--but how has that work outside of the United States contributed to your development in the field? And you've already kind of touched on this. But if there's anything else you'd like to say. 00:37:13.000 --> 00:40:30.235 Well, to lift up our campus with the, especially with what's going on right now in the world i--the goal is for us to be global citizens. Isn't that part of our mission still? And so learning about other cultures and living elsewhere gives one that lived experience of intercultural exchange, opens your world perspective. It demands one to be flexible and adaptable. I'm open to new ideas. So it's really enriched my life a lot. And it's given me a lot of empathy, compassion, inspiration, all of those things for ways of being in the world. And, I mean, I've primarily worked in Europe, but I've also--I've been to Mexico a few times on some big projects. And those were really, really wonderful experiences. And because our campus is in, you know, our demographic is so Latinx, that it's really important for me to have firsthand experiences there. So I've traveled personally there, but I've also done artistic project projects there. And it's been an incredible experience. Most recently, I went to Pachuca with Kristine Diekman. And we did an incredible project with sound and movement and electronic art. It was really amazing. So that was so great. And it was based on Day of the Dead. And even though I'm not from that culture, people are super open, and I learned so much at the time. And in fact, my mom had just passed, and so they were like--there were ofrendas everywhere. It was very meaningful for me. I got to learn a lot. So it's like just stepping out of one's, where one's from, you know. So yeah. I mean, I think it's super important and I--really sad to hear that programs like that are in jeopardy right now in our country. 'Cause it's like huge. It's a win-win for everybody. So, but yeah, I've had really amazing experiences overseas. I mean, the school I went to in Holland, we were seventy students from twenty-three countries. So it was on one hand chaotic. But on the other hand, we were from a lot of different cultures, but our language was dance. So we were really in the room together and just, and, you know, there was a lot of nonverbal relational experiences. And so that's where dance comes in as its own language. And it's not a universal language, even though we all have, you know, not all, but many of us, or most of us who are fortunate enough to have our four limbs and or five limbs if you count your spine and your whatever, you know, count many, many limbs. But it was, it was a life changing experience for me. And I had traveled one year. I had traveled in my gap year as well, too. So it was an experience. Yeah. Very big travels (unintelligible). 00:40:30.235 --> 00:40:56.255 Okay. So now turning in earnest to your time at CSUSM--you've been a faculty member on campus for twenty-four years. You already talked about what brought you to CSUSM, but what has been the evolution of CSUSM for you and your time here? For example, what did dance on the campus look like in 2001 compared to now? 00:40:56.255 --> 00:42:50.000 Okay. Yeah. Like I mentioned, I had another offer in Idaho. I mean, I had a lot of interviews, so I was very fortunate for that. I got two offers, and it was kind of like no brainer. It was like, ah, this is just opening. There's so much potential. There were a few courses on the books and they were taught by a lecturer named Terry Sprig, to honor her. She's a dance artist, local. I don't know if she's making work still. So she taught a few classes, but I don't even know to the extent. But as soon as I came in, they gave us, it was, days were different. They were like, okay, you have ten days--they don't tell you us before you get hired--you have ten days to get the courses you want to teach on the books. We're gonna be fast tracking those in in UCC (University Curriculum Committee). I'm like, okay, I don't even know what it's called then. So I wrote some quick courses, and one of the courses I wrote was Women in Performance: Choreographies of Resistance 'cause that really came out of my research and my dissertation. And I did a lot of work on circus when I was in grad school. Even though I did contact improvisation, I did a lot of work on physical culture, the turn of the century, the turn of the 19th to the 20th century. So I got to put that class on the books. I put on a technique class and--but there was like, there was only like three classes. One was Global Modern Dance, which we kept, or was it Cultures in Motion? There was a few. Cultures in Motion we kept, too. Upper division general ed. And then, you know, Bill Bradbury was the chair, and he was like, you need an intro course, so write it. So we like--literally, I'm teaching three courses and then I had to write-- 00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:52.000 --this curriculum. All this curriculum. 00:42:52.000 --> 00:49:49.000 Yeah. Yeah. So it was a lot. But now it's, now it's really challenging. It's great. We don't get a lot of allocations because of how the students have a shopping cart and how they, how they go through the system. 'Cause we're still a Dance minor. So when I got here, there were only a couple of classes on the books. And I was offered the opportunity within the first ten days, faculty when we arrived, you jump in, you teach your three courses and you get on a committee and then we'd like you to write the courses you'd like to teach in the next ten days. I'm like, okay. So I did that. I know that one of the courses I wrote was called Women in Performance: Choreographies or Resistance 'cause I was really fresh outta graduate school. This was my research of feminism and performance. And so I taught that class for like twelve years. Really exciting. And it became a general--upper division general ed class. And I'm looking forward to teaching it when I come back FERPing (Faculty Early Retirement Program) actually, 'cause I haven't taught it for a while. And then I put technique classes on the books, and then we all were putting in these intro classes. So I put an Intro to Dance class on the books. I think at that time, it might have been a year or two later. It's hard to remember, but I wrote twenty-eight classes over time.mI am grateful to the Dean's office when Michael McDuffie was there and Ranjita Basu, and Michael gave me great advice on how to create curriculum that would satisfy many things. So I had a lot of topics courses at the beginning and things like that. So, I've also--one of the most popular classes--the program has grown in just so many ways. So we were just me. And then there were me one lecturer. And then at one point there were me and like five or six lecturers. And then it was down to just me and like two lecturers, you know, with the ups and downs of the, of our economy. And now we are just--it's been a wonderful group of people. We're five people. In fact, two of them are, one of them just got their PhD as well from UC Riverside. And another one is getting their PhD, Cuauhtemoc Peranda. And Dava Hernandez just got her degree too. So, and then we have Nhu Nguyen and we have finally got a new hire because that was supposed to be related to the development of our own major. And so after many years, Dance got another tenure track line. And so I'm working with Cheri Hill, doing great job and will be the next leader of Dance Studies. I'm really excited about that. Sheri comes with a lot of experience as a teaching artist, and she's worked in the field of arts and ed and dance and education. So before she came, I had already been working with Liberal Studies and Meryl Goldberg on creating a class that would feed Liberal Studies. So we do actually six courses a year that feed Liberal Studies. So that's great. But it's also, we are losing some of our allocations. So it's hard, but it's great. It's great for the field, it's great for the students. And I'm really excited about the way that's really grown. The other area of the program that's grown is like, the diversity of the kinds of classes we wrote, that I wrote, over the years. So I really tried to--we're not doing, like--we're not doing ballet, modern, and jazz, you know. We had hip hop. It declined. We're gonna have--Cheri just wrote a new course. We're gonna have a wonderful new intro to hip hop class coming on that's related to, it's called Hip Hop Fundamentals. So it'll really meet the criteria of general ed. And then we will learn about the history of hip hop and alongside the commercial aspects so, and the very, the strong politics of the field. So we're really doing a lot. And then I'm really proud of a class that I co-wrote called Contemporary Folklorico. So that course has been on the books for almost ten years now. And I wrote it with Alfonso Cervera, and he was a student over at UC Riverside as well, and now is teaching at Ohio State. Amazing job. Amazing leader in dance in terms of Latinx work. And so that class is one of our most popular classes. We teach five or six sections a year, too. And I'm really proud of that because it really meets our demographic here and serving our Hispanic service--our Hispanic learning institution goals. So I just think it's very important that dance just stays--it's an alive field. So it's also, it's not the course--like there were other institutions where you might go work and they would--at least 20 years ago--they would just hand you the book and they're like, here, teach this dance appreciation class. But I've always been like, no, you teach what you know, I'm gonna trust that you're gonna teach some breadth. So when I hire faculty, I make sure that they can teach the breadth of the field and touch on many things, but they can really focus in on their, on their areas of research. So Cuauhtemoc, for example, is really--their p PhD is on voguing. And so they're really teaching the students like the history of voguing, the roots of voguing, the political significance of voguing. And so it touches on a lot of different things in terms of sociology and political science and history. And so we do all of that. So all of the dance classes have built in a practice-theory component. So there's always something, whether it's just a project that's embodied--so the students step out outside of the box and have to do something physically--that you know, that they're able to do. So it's a very active learning environment in Dance Studies. And that's really different here. And I think school--other schools have grown into that, but I was able to start that off at the ground. And so I'm actually really proud of that. This program really fosters that way of learning. So we're not just like watching a movie, we're gonna, at some point you're gonna get up and either make a movie or do a documentary and step into what the work is. Yeah, so we're moving towards a major. Unfortunately it didn't pass UCC, and Cheri is leading that and I'm working with Cheri on that. And we're looking at it as really like a degree that meets many branches of the field. So we still wanna' be creating and nurturing those that wanna' be dance makers. We're also meeting the field of arts and education, integrative arts and learning, and also social justice. So, we could say that word (unintelligible). Social justice. 00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:50.835 Absolutely. 00:49:50.835 --> 00:49:55.625 Yes. All of those things are a threat today, so-- 00:49:55.625 --> 00:49:55.848 Yeah, of course. 00:49:55.848 --> 00:52:55.000 But that's what we do. And you know I will say like every course that got passed here has the word diversity in it because that's what we do in dance. Dance is a diverse field. And even though I'm a white woman, I mean, from the beginning I always started with Black dance in America because when I taught lower division general ed, because our country is built upon the history of African people. So, dance is so infused with the migrant experience from so many different cultures. So, and then over the years, we have done a few things with American Indian Studies as well. So we're, we're working, we're working it here on our campus. We do a lot of outreach. So whoever we're bringing in is working that way. It's very integrative. So just this semester I'm really proud of a project. Can I say a little bit more about that? In terms of curriculum? So, I always brought guest artists here. And because it's really important for students to meet people working in the field outside of the institution--even though I am working outside of the institution in the summers and in general with my research. But, so I've always brought in guest artists through Arts and Lectures but also through Dance Studies through grants and things like that. So we started off with a very small lab budget, and it's grown. So I have a little line item to bring in guest choreographers. So I've brought in some amazing people. Many of them my teachers. And so those projects really influence the curriculum. So even though we might offer a choreography class, students can take it three times because it'll be different every time. Yeah. And this year, we brought Dancing Through Prison Walls, and it was just a very profound experience. So, I got a nice grant from IRA (Instructionally Related Activities fund) and Arts and Lecturers, and they came, and we did a residency. So again, in terms of like the hours with dance--and I my offer students alternatives if they're working and they can't make it--but they, I always, for the last, before COVID, there were three years and, yeah, three years of artist residency projects. So artists would come and they would either stay with me or friends, or last year we got a little grant money, they could get their own Airbnb. But I put up several artists over the years and they'd make a piece with students and they would leave and then either I or another faculty member would nurture that. And Anya Cloud and I did that for several years together. We did that for three years, where artists would come for a week and then they would leave and then we would rehearse and nurture the piece all the way through the spring dance concert. So yeah. The spring dance concert is our culminating event. Yeah. It's amazing. Very big event. Did I answer your question? 00:52:55.000 --> 00:53:30.304 You did. Okay. So this is a little bit more general, but ,it sounds like, from what you've talked about and your history, that you could have chosen different paths when it comes to dance. Different career paths in terms of what you did with that. Or even back to the high school, right? Like what would've happened if you had gone to the performing arts high school? But you chose a career in higher education. How has that lived up to your expectations? 00:53:30.304 --> 01:03:00.324 Wow. Good question. I have to say I'm super grateful because at least in the U.S., there's not very many jobs in dance. I'm extremely grateful to have a salaried position in the beginning, a pension. So I don't take that lightly. And, yeah. That's big. And there's not that many jobs in dance and higher education. So I feel very, very fortunate that I got this job as well. And that's why when I got it, I mean, I take it very, very seriously. There's a lot of work to be done in the field. And this--I don't even like the word fighters--but everybody working in dance and higher education is, we're fighting for it all 'cause the resources are less and less, unless you're in certain institutions. But it's a lot. It's a lot of work. So I worked really hard, I realized. My mom used to even say--'cause I, when I was chair also of VPA (Visual and Performing Arts) for a year and a half, almost two years. Interim chair. And I would go see my parents on spring break 'cause they're from the East coast. And so I'd bring my computer and my mother would be like, You gotta' take a break. You gotta' take a break. You gotta' take a break. So, yeah, I mean I worked a lot. I worked way more than forty hours a week in this job, like way more. And I don't have any regrets. I'm a little tired, maybe, but I know I'll refuel. Hence retiring a little sooner than I thought I was going to. 'Cause we'll probably get to that question, I imagine. Somewhere along the way. But, you know, our campus has grown a lot, but we all in the School of Arts are working hard. You know, we, how do I say this? Lots of gratitude, but we've all, you know, we've all talked about how we need space, how we need a theater. Our university has grown to a size that we're really ready for--I'm not so fixed on dance has to be in a theater. But we do need a place. So I think dance could grow more and could have grown more had we had a space. So we have a beautiful studio that doubles as a black box theater and we share it with Theater. But that's all we have. So, and then we use--Music, Theater, and Dance share the theater, the performance hall that was designed for music. So that's been hard. And so it's like, it gets to be, I used--I don't even use the expression anymore, but for like five, the last five years, I'm like, broken record. Like, we cannot, how, you know, what do you need? Or, you know, if I'm writing with Cheri, the needs that we'll need to have a major, and just because we write we need space doesn't mean that that should halt the major. We have to keep moving forward. But it's that whole what what comes first. It doesn't really work in today's economy, but dance is more important than ever, I believe. And I think the, our SoCal and our nation's culture around dance has changed so much in positive ways. With social media and many things. I'm like, wow. You know, and when I, you know, there was like ten years where people are like, do you watch Dancing With the Stars? When it came out. And I'm kind of like, no you know, like I don't have time to watch that show. Or, you know, like, oh I'm going to the theater this weekend. Because I'm really into promoting for students live art, live dance. Students, when they go and see a show here, they've never been--so many students.have never been to the theater. And it's like, so I really, I'm so grateful for my parents that I had that experience. And again, we weren't, I was from a very working class family, but it was a priority for my parents. And my mom used to take me to Brooklyn College. So I saw like really traditional, amazing Black dance in America throughout the seventies. I mean, my dance education was really opened by having my grandparents in New York and going in and out of New York. And my mother would just take me to these things that I probably would never have seen before. So, I just think the live art experience is really important, and I think our University could be cultivating that more. So that's an expect--that's one criticism. Like we had a President who called it the crown jewel, and it really is, and it could be more of a cultural hub. So that, but otherwise, you know, like I'm super grateful. It took me a long time to get to the pro--dance program. So I worked for fifteen years just doing what a program director does but not compensated for that. I just built the program because what else was I gonna' do? Everybody else was building around me. So I'm like, okay, well build a program. So I kind of floated around a little bit. So I reported to Visual Arts for a while and, but I was still doing the work of being a director. So it's really my--the art. When we sent things up to CAPC (Curriculum and Academic Policy Committee), there was a year that, my colleagues stood up for me and said, It's now time for dance to get a hire. So, to be a program. And then there was the moment where to get a hire--so I was, dance got ranked finally for a hire--but that took like five years once the School of Arts stood behind dance, moving up the line. So there was just many, many years where I was carrying everything. You know, I had a great colleague in Anya Cloud did a lot, and Cherie Hill is doing an amazing job. And all of the lecturers right now are above and beyond. But I also, and I also give them autonomy to do what they want. First of all, I can't do it all on my own anymore, but it's like, in terms of positionality, you know, we're very, we've got a wide spectrum of cultural identities and ethnic identities in our makeup of our program. And that's really important. And so for me, it's like I need to step aside what other people bring, people who they wanna' bring. Even though we always had conversations, I was kind of carrying it. But that now I'm able to find a little pot of money so that they can get a little stipend for curating something that they wanna' bring. So I'm really--contact improvisation at it's heart is about horizontal politics, so I lead with horizontal politics here. And I always have too much information. I send too many emails after the Dean's meeting, even though they're lecturers, I'd send them what's going on because we're, we say we're small and mighty. So in order for the program to grow, let the young people come forward as well. Though I do believe in intergenerational, but I also believe, you know, let the young people come forward. And Cheri is doing and also she's gonna do a great job. And she's already done so much since she's here. So, I trust that it's gonna carry forward. I don't know in what ways, but I'm open to that. You know, and I think I, I believe and have faith that the School of Arts is in full support of Dance. I have great colleagues. I've done many things, but we're all working really hard so--but it's just a great group of people. It always has been. So what was the question? Has CSUSM lived to my exectations? Well, yeah. I would say yes. And yet we know we really, we do need some more space, and I wish we had more allocations 'cause we can't build the min--we can't build the major unless we get the classes. And then you can't get the classes if you can't offer them. And you can't get, you can't offer them if the students don't sign up for them. So there was that moment where the shopping cart card came forward for students. I don't think that was great. I liked when we used to do--it was a lot of work. And even I didn't have a program I used to advise for Visual and Performing Arts. So I would have my own list. You know, the chair would say, Karen, here's your list. You're gonna advise all these people. Okay, what, what do they need to take? You know, they're visual arts students. But these halls used to be full, lined up, you know, when we'd be registering for classes. So you'd get to really meet the students, but then you would ensure that all these classes are gonna be full. But now the students, it's a different climate, but, you know, I can't change the system, so-- 01:03:00.324 --> 01:03:04.231 Bringing on the technology and you know, having-- 01:03:04.231 --> 01:05:40.445 it's great. But it's also, I think students, they need the advice and the opportunity to sit down with not just advising, but here. I think I'm taking a tangent from the--okay. So I hope, I hope that the, I hope that, yeah. I've also, the other thing that I've done with the curriculum that I've been en enabled to do with some amazing colleagues on our campus is create community engagement projects. I didn't really talk about that, but I did a few highlights. I did-- I started the collaboration with A Step Beyond, and our dean is now on the board, a fairly new dean, Dean Leora Gubkin. And for five years I taught a class over there. So, and that really ties into our dance and education pathway that may or may not grow into directly into that, but it's a great opportunity for students. And Meryl is working with Cheri and other faculty on this big arts and education certification. Arts certification project. So we're really in that already. And then I've gotten a few students jobs over at A Step Beyond. And so that was great. And I worked with Community Engagement. I got a little stipend at one point to work with them and create a course that was specific to working with them called Dance in the Community. That was inspired by Kristine Diekman as well. She did a big video in the community project for many years that always inspired me. She made public service announcements with like, so many underserved communities in our area. And so she's always been like, how do you do that? So she, she lit the way for me, so I wanna' acknowledge her also in this interview. So there was that. And then I did, I worked with Veronica Anover and worked at the Glenner Town Center, which is an Alzheimer's day center. And we did a whole project there. And then I did another fundraiser over at the Conrad Prebys theater in La Jolla. So I've done a few big community projects. I worked with the Museum of--it was called Museum of Man then--at Balboa Park. And I worked with Judy Bauerlein, and we brought guest artists there, and we did big project there. So I think those kinds of experiences for students are so important. 01:05:40.445 --> 01:05:45.172 Yeah. And a lot of like community feelers and outreach. 01:05:45.172 --> 01:06:24.000 Yeah. And bringing community to campus, too. I've brought a lot of community to campus 'cause I brought some well-known artists here. So different schools would come here. I worked with NCHEA (North County Higher Education Alliance) as well for like five years in my early days. And we did some really big projects. We brought legendary Donald McKayle here. He was at UC Irvine. He was already in his late seventies, early eighties when he came. I think it was early eighties. And he was the Alvin Aileys teacher. And so we've done, we've done some big things. I'm sure there will be more big things. Yeah. So to our little campus, we've done some big projects. 01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:59.605 That's right. Okay. So this is changing gear a bit. Okay so my, the overarching question is what did you do during Covid? But in our pre-interview you mentioned, you talked about the double pandemic and that the Covid-19 virus increased awareness of systemic racism. So the question really is what did you do during Covid? When we were all kind of locked inside-- 01:06:59.605 --> 01:14:20.635 Well, I did a lot during Covid. I--with the rise of Black Lives Matter and the murder of George Floyd, you know, everything stopped in certain ways. And I immediately, you know--for a moment--and then I immediately gathered with other colleagues in School of Arts, a few of us, we worked the entire summer to create a series. We got some money from the dean's office through some donors, through the Wagner family. And we used all of that money to program online lectures and performances. So that was like a big project. I don't know. We did at least nine, ten events per semester that was open to whole campus. But we really geared it towards School of art students to get them, to get them going. And it was, at that time during COVID, too, there was a HBCU (Historically Black Colleges and Universities) project that I worked that Mtifiti Imara invited me to be part of. So I worked with a faculty member.So the artist that we worked with was T. Lang. And we also worked with Melicia Taylor, who's become a friend and collaborator Melicia was a lecturer here in Music. So Melicia was also hired. So these are significant Black artists. Melicia is a sound designer and an opera singer. And Melicia came here and brought compositions. And we did a piece with, I think it was my choreography class. It was choreography or improvisation. We did a dance film called I Am, and the students did their own choreographies at home. And then she worked with a filmmaker to sew it together. So we did a film. I brought another artist. We were still in--well we were just opening--Jose Abad from San Francisco, another Black artist. So I brought a lot of--working with a lot of Black artists to campus. I was doing that. like I said, I've been doing that all along. But it was really a focus on that with HBCU--our campus relationship grew with that. Cheri just did that project this year. So yeah, I was really amazed at that. And we worked with students. We came in even though the campus was on lockdown. We got permission to come in and students got to work with some of these choreographers over Zoom and made their own works. So Skyla Miles and Minnie Atkins both made work, both alum from Dance Studies with, during this HBCU project. Also brought, Mayfield Brooks, who was very known in New York and in Europe and South America, and well, globally, for her work with--she calls it improvising while Black. And she has written a lot and did a lot of projects around Black culture and survival and things. So yeah, it was very, very prolifically busy and happening. And then at the same time, I was gearing up for my sabbatical application. And so even though we were in, still in Covid, I wrote my application to do this project called Think Gravity Dance Tank. So that was really involving--it was happening still during Covid. And we had a symposium and it was taking on the 50th anniversary of contact improvisation. So that's my, it was almost a continuation. It's kind of is a continuation of what I wrote about in my PhD in 2001 about contact not being universalist and who writes the history. So we brought forward some less recognized histories. So Ishmael Houston-Jones was my teacher in Holland way back when, in 1990. No, 1989. 1989. That's his brick (points to brick on window sill). He has a very famous bit called White Hope that he dances with this brick and he's danced with a brick internationally. And he's a very well respected artist. So it was a very creative way to do a curatorial project, where we invited four people, and we let them invite four people. And then we brought students. So Anya Cloud got a job at, in Boulder, University of Colorado. So they have a much bigger facility. So we did it there. And we had a week-long symposium, and we called it a reckoning with contact improvisation. And we stepped back 'cause we're both white women and we let everybody else lead. And, but we held the container and things like that. And then from that, we created a film because we had so much stuff. We had interview, we interviewed everybody, and then we had incredible footage. So we made a documentary. That documentary won best documentary at the Toronto Dance Film Festival. So we were happy with that. Or Contact Festival (Contact Dance International Film Festival) was just recently. And we've screened it in a few places, and it's gotten really good feedback. So it's a bit of a reckoning with the history in terms of who's identified 'cause contact improvisation is historicized as very white. Whereas its influences are very much based in African American culture, history and ways of working in jazz music and things like that. In terms of what is a jam, what is it to improvise. And then also there is a history of Eastern Asian American and Asian art influences in terms of what is yielding, what is gravity, what is meditation. So we brought in other voices to speak about cultural histories and positionality in terms of race and culture. So it was really, it was really productive and it was a deep experience. And it was cool 'cause we brought--I got student success funds from here and Anya got some money from her institution. So we involved, we were about twenty-six people, something like that. Between twenty-four and twenty-eight. But half of them were students. So it was really important to bring the future forward. So again, this was another project that really is based in intergenerational community and containers. And I'm really happy 'cause Makisig Akin is Philippinx and they took the model of curation and they did a whole BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, People of Color) dance festival in Berlin, probably one of the first or of the first. And they used that model of curation and they were really, really excited that, to learn that way of curating. So there's that curating piece of mine, too, that yeah. People, if nobody curates, then you're not gonna' have the work, you know And we're, it's strong to curate one at a time, but it's also strong to curate symposiums that bring people togetherfor some time. Yeah. 01:14:20.635 --> 01:14:32.795 Okay. So do you have work, a work that you've accomplished in your career that has been most impactful in your opinion? 01:14:32.795 --> 01:14:34.704 Impactful on the field or-- 01:14:34.704 --> 01:14:35.805 To you. 01:14:35.805 --> 01:14:42.104 Oh, to me or to the field? 01:14:42.104 --> 01:14:46.305 Or both. 01:14:46.305 --> 01:16:17.000 Well, in terms of my training, my work with Debra Hay affected my perceptual improvisation very greatly. So Deborah Hay is a, still working artist and dance elder. And I studied with her, I saw her perform in Holland, but I wasn't in her class. And then I brought her with this group Lower Left that I worked with for many years in San Diego. So I've dipped in and out of her work. And I'm really proud that I recently got to perform with her in her work at the Getty. It was a re-dance, a recreation of a work from the sixties. So she was a very significant artist that emerged in the sixties. And she's continued to emerge internationally. So she really had a great impact on my career of how I dance. But I think--I don't know, it's such a hard question. I guess--now I'll get a little emotional because I guess creating the program is probably my biggest impact. I mean, it was a lot of work. 01:16:17.000 --> 01:16:19.000 A lot of work. A lot of really important work. 01:16:19.000 --> 01:19:24.505 I hope University continues to support it. I mean, I think it had the greatest impact 'cause I--thousands of students have taken dance classes here. And I'm sure, because you can read it, some of them was whoa, but most of them always write in the evals, I didn't know dance could be like this, or I didn't know--I just can't imagine that we would talk about dance like this, or dance could be this way or this class--even if I'm not teaching it. But creating a program where the people are invited to teach what they love to teach, to teach what they know and but to also really keep bringing in this idea that we're gonna embody the learning. I think San Marcos is unique like that, and I think the way it's open has and its opening, is pretty unique. And, but I guess, you know, I've, and I've done Summer Arts as well, so I've worked within the system and I did six summers with Summer Arts. I did two as an artist. One was during my hire, one was before my hire. And that program is over. It just got closed. 'Cause one of the biggest things the State of California did for the arts was like, oh my gosh. But I think it's, I guess I never really thought about that when you said is there some favorite work? And I was like, favorite, I mean, you know, Think Gravity was enormous. Veronica was enormous. Live Legacy was enormous. You know? I had a big practice in San Diego with people for seven years. We met every Thursday researching dance, and then I'll show you after on the wall. Lower Left was huge part of my life. Holland, Riverside was huge. But I guess the biggest accomplishment or impact, the greatest impact would be I guess this Wow. I never thought about it like that. When I visited, when I was doing, um, the Deborah Hay work--Deborah Hay is friends with Susan Foster, who's the, who I referred to as the godmother of dance studies. I don't know if she'd like that title, but I'll give it to her. She was like--I went to visit her house. She was like, You did it. She, because I think when they took me into that program, I was a bit of a wild card card 'cause they took a lot of scholars. They didn't--at the time wasn't practicing PhD, but I was dancing, like really committed to dancing and performing still. And so I was a bit of a wild card. I didn't get the, I didn't get the scholarship, you know, the first year. I didn't get the teaching the first year. They took me, but they didn't give me the, they didn't give me the scholarship. And, but I was like, I'm gonna do this anyway and see how I like it. And so that, but she looked at me, she's like, You did it. 'Cause you know, I guess I did, right? There's a program here. So time to let it go to the next people. 01:19:24.505 --> 01:19:26.000 Well, that comes to the last question-- 01:19:26.000 --> 01:19:28.000 --the last question, I imagine-- 01:19:28.000 --> 01:19:29.000 which is-- 01:19:29.000 --> 01:19:30.496 now you got me going. 01:19:30.496 --> 01:19:43.234 Oh it's. We want to, we want to get your feelings in there, too. What do you plan to do both personally and professionally in your retirement? 01:19:43.234 --> 01:23:27.185 Well, the first thing I want to do, and I am doing it, is slowing down a bit. I'm coming off of a season of lot of loss, too, a lot of loss of family. So yeah, I wanna' slow down. So I'm gonna slow down this summer and do some organizing. Continue to clean the office a little bit. And also, um, yeah, do some organizing. And then planning for my fall. I'm gonna go to Austria. I've been invited by my mentor, Donna Ray, who's a top-level Feldenkrais teacher. And she runs the institute in Vienna, the training institute. So I'm gonna' go with, there's a brand-new cohort starting. So I rented myself an apartment overlooking some park in Vienna, and it has a beautiful view of a park. And I'll walk through the park every morning and I, I'll be an assistant in the training. That means I'll be working basically. And I'm hoping that will really hone my skills even more so as I transition into retirement, I'm still gonna' be working. I'm not like retiring. So there's a woman who, as a dance legend, there's just many dance legends, you know, who work into their nineties. It's not like you stop. I really think I will always be working in the field in some way. I don't know what that is yet. I would like to curate in a theater, but they don't have those kinds of spaces in San Diego anymore, where you can just have a studio like that where you can. That's one of the things I would, I could imagine. So I'm gonna' do that and I'm gonna' go to visit a former student who's now a well-known Swiss actress and has a wonderful family. So I'm gonna' stay with her and watch her on the big stage and take a walk in the Alps. And then I'm going to do a vocal training. And it something--it's called Roy Hart. And I studied with them in San Francisco, one of their proteges. It's in a long line of lineage from the thirties and forties. And it's a vocal technique that was used in theater, like experimental theater, in the fifties and sixties. But it's also like, I'll use the word therapy. I'm not afraid of that. It's therapeutic as all art can be therapeutic, healing. Like let's transform. That's what we do in the arts, we transform. So I'm going to study some voice. And then when I come back, I'm already invited--there's a, I used to, I put myself through graduate school as a Pilates trainer, even though I'm not certified at Pilates. But I'm gonna bring Feldenkrais into their Pilates studio and do like a little one night a week class. And then, my friend Anya is up for--Anya and Mcsig are up for a big, NEFA, the New England Foundation of the Arts is one of the few funders that give fairly big money in dance in our country. They're a finalist if they get that they're doing an interdisciplinary dance project. And I guess I'll be performing. So that's the goal. The goal is to keep doing yoga, dance, walk, social activism. And I also like to paint and write. 01:23:27.185 --> 01:23:27.965 Wow. 01:23:27.965 --> 01:23:33.154 We'll see. There'll be a little more time for that. Yeah. 01:23:33.154 --> 01:23:36.994 I love that. You're gonna keep busy. 01:23:36.994 --> 01:23:41.045 Yeah, I'll be busy, but I've also, this summer, I'm gonna slow it down. 01:23:41.045 --> 01:23:51.000 And that's really good, too. So is there anything else you'd like to talk about in this interview? 01:23:51.000 --> 01:25:41.064 I think what I would like to do though is we talked about taking a few photos. And I'm really happy--I guess what I'll say is that I'm really happy that the University's interested in this interview and maybe scanning some of the posters and all things that were presented. Maybe they can even use it to use it as fuel to get a theater or a bigger production venue. Or, or a unit that would like to take care of some of these things so that faculty don't have to do all that work, But I also, I guess I wanna' really honor the founding faculty. Maybe just take a moment. I could close with that. Everybody worked really hard, and I'm really honored to have been part of the upstart. And I hope and believe that our campus will keep on during whatever's going on in the world. And I really hope that the arts can really stay strong here. Yeah. I think we are such an incredible group of artists in the School of Arts, so I just wanna' wish everybody well and to keep on. And I really, I hope that students will--and faculty and committees and the administration will--see really the value of what Dance does. 'Cause dance is really, plays a big role in the world. And like I said, it can be a lot of fun, but it goes way deeper than that. 01:25:41.064 --> 01:25:57.645 Well, that's a really great note to end on. Yeah. Thank you. And I just want to thank you for allowing us to celebrate you and your career and every, all the hard work that you've done all of this time. And I know there's a lot more to come for you, but kind of at this milestone-- 01:25:57.645 --> 01:25:58.354 Thank you. 01:25:58.354 --> 01:26:01.805 --you know, moment for you. Just thank you for sharing with us. 01:26:01.805 --> 01:26:09.234 Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Yeah, thank you. 01:26:09.234 --> 01:29:28.000 There's a few projects that I'd like to highlight that were highly sponsored by the University and that had a great, also had a great impact on my life. And the first one is a project called United and Severed. I think that I will reach for the pamphlet to refresh myself on how important this project was. So I did this with Professor Kristine Diekman, and actually this project was really personal, but I was able to take a very personal experience--this is what artists do if you don't write memoirs, and they take it out into the world. And so it was following my own--I had a very severe traumatic injury while I was employed here. Lived through that. And I stood in as like a surrogate body on film for the topic of that window of time. So it deals with women and traumatic injury and PTSD. So at the time, I was also in close relationship with somebody who is working as a active--not active duty--non-active duty for the military, who was working around soldiers and PTSD and the Afghanistan and Iran and Iraq aftermath. And so Kristine and I looked for alum and students from our school, who were survivors of traumatic injury and how they dealt with it. And so Kim Anderson is--was in it and she was a CSUSM Liberal Studies major. And Ivy Kensinger was a student of mine and also Veronica Anover. She survived a horrific car accident on the way to campus. And turns out she is now a PhD in psychology. So very--came through in a miracle way. And we did a project that was a very poetic representation of movement and understanding disability. So that was featured. And we also worked with Butoh dancers because it was also during the time of some wild fires out in East County. So we took a group of students and we took down a tree from the extremities down to the trunk that was burned. And Richard Keeley is a professor, was a professor at San Diego State--is retired. and Anna O'Cain is a professor, visual art professor, who was working at Miracosta. And we did a huge project together that was featured at Center for the Arts Escondido. So I really wanted to highlight that. It was a very deep project. We have beautiful video footage. Kristine did an incredible job editing. I was sitting alongside her. She pushed all the buttons. Of course, it was really her editing that made the project so spectacular. And our work was featured in many film festivals internationally. So I just really wanted to mention that we have this beautiful artifact from that. And then the other project that I wanted to talk about was, um, wait a minute. 01:29:28.000 --> 01:29:30.315 Your palliative care work. 01:29:30.315 --> 01:30:59.000 Oh, my current work that I will continue when I'm, that I actually have a meeting in ten minutes for, that I'm working with Palliative Care--that's a pilot project--that's run by Michael McDuffie. And I'm working with Ranjita Basu and Andrew Spieldenner. And now we have a cohort of people from the Mindfulness Center working on it. And we're working with Elizabeth Healthcare Center, Elizabeth Hospice Center. And we're doing a once-a-month project on mindfulness. And so I'm bringing in the somatic piece. So really it's been a great, We've been working on that together for about a year and a half. And now we're enacting it over there in Escondido. And next week we'll have our third monthly session, and it will go through the year. So I will be still staying involved as a volunteer for that, while I'm off the books. And so I'm very happy to be doing practical applications in different fields. And that connects as I interweave everything that I've said today, that you know, that what I do with dance and what I believe dance can do in the world has a great impact because we're working with the body and compassionate empathy. We all have a body. We're always moving, even if it's, we're just, we're down to the breath. Breath is movement. And so with that, I'll just take a breath and say thank you. 01:30:59.000 --> 01:31:00.000 Thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Schaffman, Karen. Interview June 6, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-084 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-06-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Karen Schaffman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Higher education Dance Study and teaching Improvisation in dance Movement education California State University San Marcos -- Faculty Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Connecticut Amherst (Mass.) Riverside (Calif.) San Francisco (Calif.) Holland Germany Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Karen Schaffman Art and artists CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0068bb6bea2ea5f55c2f9c5c968a5d27.pdf a666cc68c14f402d6f965e1b1ace736a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Schaffman, Karen. Interview transcript, June 5, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Karen Schaffman is a Professor of Dance at California State University San Marcos since 2002. She has been pivotal to the development of the Dance program at CSUSM. For Karen dancing is a transformative, healing and transgressive force for self-awareness, political change and social communication. In this interview, Schaffman covers her early exposure to dance, her formal education, international work, and her time at CSUSM. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Karen Schaffman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-06-05 Subject The topic of the resource Higher education Dance Study and teaching Improvisation in dance Movement education California State University San Marcos -- Faculty Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Connecticut Amherst (Mass.) Riverside (Calif.) San Francisco (Calif.) Holland Germany San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Karen Schaffman Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SchaffmanKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-06-05_transcript Art and artists CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2f5f1f5e8e2ab849149ddd2d77b15aa4.jpg ba32d71554e6120c0b7841a00e58146b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alphonso Cevera titled "Poc-Chuc Iteraciión 4" Description An account of the resource Guest artist choreographer Alphonso Cevera. Collaboration and Performance with Dance Studies Students: Vanesa Bedolla, Nicole Carr, Kati Echeverria, Xochitl Garnica, Alex Maravillas, Emilia Medina, Raelen Pellos, Karen Rocha, Maria Sandoval, and Nina Watts. This performance is part of the The Experimental Dance Project (EDP), which celebrates dance through interaction with professional artists and project-based learning. The EDP brings outstanding dance artists to perform, lecture, dialogue, teach and create with CSUSM students. Importantly, the EDP offers cutting-edge training and performance opportunities by hosting dance artists across the spectrum, including people of color, Latinx, Black, and LGBTQ identities. The EDP embraces our campus’ mission of inclusivity.  The EDP focuses on experimental and improvisational approaches to dance, with a particular emphasis on social justice and community engagement. The EDP aims to break down societal norms around dance and create a space where students can explore their own unique movement styles. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tim Richards https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/803d77588fbc77f28af85130979c60c1.jpg 9ced4a5c7480b90010047507e5db9e0e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jaamil Olawale Kosoko titled "The Chameleon Complex" Description An account of the resource Guest artist choreographer Alphonso Cevera. With Live composition/sound designer Malesha Tayloy, Professor/Dr. Karen Schaffman and Dance Studies students: Kevine Benitez, Xochitl Garnica, Alex Maravilles, Emilia Medina, Raelene Palos and Cornelius Stringer. This performance is part of the The Experimental Dance Project (EDP), which celebrates dance through interaction with professional artists and project-based learning. The EDP brings outstanding dance artists to perform, lecture, dialogue, teach and create with CSUSM students. Importantly, the EDP offers cutting-edge training and performance opportunities by hosting dance artists across the spectrum, including people of color, Latinx, Black, and LGBTQ identities. The EDP embraces our campus’ mission of inclusivity.  The EDP focuses on experimental and improvisational approaches to dance, with a particular emphasis on social justice and community engagement. The EDP aims to break down societal norms around dance and create a space where students can explore their own unique movement styles. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tim Richards https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0e7e677cdb8596e444b17c80b2adfb8c.jpg 45067d84631621666986f8424dcf45c0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Karen Schaffman and Ishmael Houston Jones Description An account of the resource Karen Schaffman and Ishmael Houston Jones at Think Gravity Dance Tank.Think Gravity Dance Tank: Celebrating & Reckoning with Contact Improvisation and Performance was an intergenerational research gathering in Boulder Colorado from March 21-26, 2022. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tim Richards https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5f893935bd6c92420817c088e0d444cc.jpg 5e968aadd43e72d0487cb77679d8b7c9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Karen Schaffman and Darrell Jones Description An account of the resource Karen Schaffman and Darrell Jones at Think Gravity Dance Tank.Think Gravity Dance Tank: Celebrating & Reckoning with Contact Improvisation and Performance was an intergenerational research gathering in Boulder Colorado from March 21-26, 2022. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tim Richards Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Schaffman, Karen. Photographs, June 5, 2025. Description An account of the resource Four photos related to the oral history of Karen Schaffman. Photograph #1 depicts dancers in a performance of the Experimental Dance Project titled "Poc-Chuc Iteraciión 4." Photograph #2 depicts dancers in a performance of the Experimental Dance Project titled "The Chameleon Complex." Photograph #3 depicts Karen Schaffman with with Ishmael Houston Jones in the Think Gravity Dance Project. Photograph #4 depicts Karen Schaffman with Darrell Jones in the Think Gravity Dance Project. Click on the thumbnails to view the full images in more detail. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Sheehan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lilian Serrano OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SerranoLilian_SheehanRobert_2022-04-06.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Alianza Comunitaria National Latino Research Center Universidad Popular OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Oral History of Lilian Serrano, April 6, 2022 SC027-16 1:08:13 SC027 CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. California State University San Marcos Community organization Oxnard (Calif.) San Diego County (Calif.) Tijuana (Baja California, Mexico) Undocumented immigrants -- California -- San Diego County Alianza Comunitaria National Latino Research Center Universidad Popular Lilian Serrano Robert Sheehan Video SerranoLilian_SheehanRobert_2022-04-06.mp4 1:|23(2)|52(6)|66(5)|83(6)|100(11)|126(9)|138(4)|154(12)|174(1)|195(1)|210(1)|221(8)|234(12)|247(13)|266(4)|285(3)|296(7)|306(6)|322(11)|334(9)|350(4)|370(2)|382(5)|402(7)|438(2)|454(5)|467(11)|479(13)|503(5)|516(12)|530(4)|543(9)|555(9)|569(5)|581(1)|598(7)|611(7)|623(10)|637(1)|648(12)|665(1)|679(6)|691(11)|705(2)|717(8)|731(2)|744(3)|761(12)|774(1)|786(5)|799(5)|816(7)|827(13)|840(9)|857(7)|869(7)|883(1)|897(12)|909(10)|927(6)|943(9)|954(11)|967(16)|979(11)|996(9)|1008(5)|1021(11)|1056(12) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b6bf87a1a952cb442b90ba8ffd86ee22.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction/Living in Tijuana Robert Sheehan: So today is April the sixth, 2022. It's a Wednesday at 1:03 PM. I am Robert Sheehan, a graduate student at California State University, San Marcos. And today I am interviewing Lilian Serrano for the university library, special collections, oral history project. Lilian, thank you for being here with me today. Lilian Serrano: Uh, yes. Thank you, Robert &lt ; laugh&gt ; Sheehan: I'd like to first start kind of by asking you about your childhood: when and where were you born? Serrano: I was actually born in Chula Vista here in San Diego County, very close to the border, but I was raised in Tijuana. So actually my parents didn't live in Chula Vista at the time when I was born. My parents, just like many other border residents, took advantage of the geographic location where they were living at, and seek the best healthcare they could afford. And for my parents who were Tijuana residents, that meant Chula Vista. So I was born in Chula Vista. Sheehan: Okay. So you were born as an American citizen? Serrano: Yes. Sheehan: And your parents were still in Mexico? Serrano: Yes. Like I said my family is a transnational family that has made Tijuana/San Diego our home for many generations now. So, my parents were residents of Tijuana. They're Mexican citizens. And there is actually, um, contrary to public belief, there's actually nothing illegal about folks coming in and -- Robert, give me one second. Sheehan: Sure. [Interview interrupted] Sheehan: Hi, we are resuming the interview at 1:05. Lilian, you were talking about your parents in Tijuana and how they, uh, it was a common thing for people to move between the border. Serrano: Yeah, it continues to be actually a common thing for residents of the border region. My family has been going back and forth from the border to the U.S. and Mexico side for at least five generations now. But my family, it is all originally from Mexico. So, my parents as Mexican citizens and as Tijuana residents -- actually, both my parents were born and raised in Tijuana. Their whole lives, they cross back and forth between San Diego to Tijuana. They had at the time when I was born, they had their tourist visas. And like I was mentioning, contrary to popular belief, there's nothing illegal about folks being able, uh, receiving medical service in the U.S. as long as they're paying for them. And that's what my parents did at the time. They were able to, you know, afford to pay for every doctor visit, every medicine, everything that involves giving birth. So they did. And I was born in Chula Vista. And so did the rest of my sisters. So, there's three of us. All of us were born in Chula Vista and then actually a lot of my cousins and even just family friends that I grew up with. All of us, a lot of us, were born in, this U.S. side of the border, but we lived Tijuana to Mexican parents. Sheehan: That's very, very interesting. So do you still live on the American side of the border? Serrano: Yes, so actually it wasn't until I was probably about two weeks right before my 14th birthday that my family decided--and I mean they had been talking about it for a while--but they decided that it was time we made the hard decision of leaving, our hometown, my parent’s hometown, right, Tijuana, to the United States. And we moved to Oxnard, California in Ventura County. A small [unclear] cultural town where my great grandma had moved, like I said, many years before I was even born. And my grandparents were living there at the time. So my parents made the decision to move us to the United States. And I've been residing in the United States since I was two weeks before my 14th birthday until present. Sheehan: So do you still have family then south of the border in Tijuana? Serrano: Yeah, the house where I grew up, we still have it there. So I go visit. I still have a lot of family friends, family members, you know, aunts and uncles, cousins. Some of my cousins who are U.S. citizens that continue to live in Tijuana, I don't think really, they have ever in their entire lives, and they're like in their thirties now, ever lived actually live in the United States. They come visit, but they don't live here, their U.S. citizens that live in Tijuana. Chula Vista ; Oxnard ; Tijuana ; Transnational Families 550 Transition from middle school in Tijuana to high school in Oxnard Sheehan: So growing up, you went to school all the way up until the beginning of high school in Mexico. Serrano: Yeah, actually, I did up to one year of middle school. And because of when like the U.S. and Mexico, we don't have a synched schedule when we cut the birthdays to like a new grade. I ended up following this like gap in between, so I skipped eighth grade. &lt ; laugh&gt ; I didn't have eighth grade either in Mexico or here. So I did everything from preschool to seventh grade in Mexico. And then I moved to Oxnard to start ninth grade, or high school. So that's where I started my high school. And I did all my high school in Oxnard. Graduated from Oxnard High School. Sheehan: And how was that transition from a Mexican middle school to an American high school? Serrano: It was interesting. &lt ; laugh&gt ; It was very, um, I mean, once again, I had the privilege I think that a lot of folks don't have of my parents were, um, used to be able to afford for me to go to private schools. Now they were not the biggest, most popular or, you know, expensive private schools, but nonetheless, they were private schools. So I was able to get some extra help in my classes. I was used to my class sizes being about 15 to 20 students and that 20 students was a big class for us. Most of, for the most part, I had small classes in size. And I used to, you know, have just your regular, I guess, subjects. Right. History, um, I didn't have English. I had Spanish. English was taught as the foreign language. So when I transitioned to the United States, I transitioned from small classroom size, um, class to now being put in a public school in a community that lacks a lot of resources. So I was thrown into high school with now being the culture clash of my class now double in size. I didn't have as much support from teachers plus the language. Right. Like I struggled with my English. I didn't really, I don't think I really spoke English before I started high school. So now I had to learn the language. So I was placed in ELD or ESL classes. I was placed also in what was offered at the time for bilingual classes, which was really lower like level math and the lowest level of science and basically all of the subjects. And even at the time, right. I remember very clearly having the conversation with my math teacher. They did an assessment ; my math skills were actually really advanced for ninth graders. Because once again, I had had the support and I develop my math skills. But because of language, I was not able to be placed on the correct level of class because that level of class was not offered for ESL students. So I had to be placed in pre-algebra even though I had skills to be placed, I think in like geometry, which was at least one year, if not, two advanced. But I just didn't understand the language &lt ; laugh&gt ; . So that was a challenge for sure. I was also, once again, because I understood very clearly to me that the sacrifice my family was making was just to give me and my sisters opportunity to attend college. And me and my older sister had also that pressure, right. Now we have to make sure that our family sacrifice was worth it. So we had always, you know, since my first day of high school I had in mind that I was there to learn and to meet all the requirements to go to a four-year university. So as an ESL student that really meant having to reclassify, right? Like having to go through the whole process, finish and learn and acquire enough English skills to be able to be placed in college prep classes to then be able to meet the A through G requirements. All of that in the lapse of four years. And actually, I was able to achieve that. I ended up, um, I always kind of joke, but not really with my friends that I had to do the A through G requirements, which is supposed to take you four years. I completed those in two years. ‘Cause I took the first two years of my high school to really just learn the language. And then, like I said, gain enough proficiency to be able to be placed in college prep classes. And then it took me two years, which meant took classes before school, after school, attended community college classes during the summer. And any opportunity that I could to, like, I took to be able to gain those, uh, or be able to meet the A through G requirements that allowed me then my senior year apply to a four-year university. And not just apply, but actually be accepted. So I gained acceptance to a few universities actually. I think, I don't remember receiving any letter denying my acceptance. Then it became a matter of where I was gonna go. And I chose Cal State San Marcos. ESL ; high school ; Oxnard 879 Experience with bilingual program in high school Sheehan: So that was quite the journey then to come from Mexico and, like you said, to only have basically two years of that kind of more advanced high school because the school didn't have a bilingual program. So they placed you at a lower level. Do you think the-- Serrano: I mean, we did have a bilingual program, but the bilingual program was, we didn't have all the levels of math, all the levels of science proficiency in bilingual, right. Like, they just had like the beginner. So for those of us who had had the opportunity to actually have, uh, acquire some, you know, skills in our home countries or the countries we were coming from, and we were placed in the beginner just because they, it was not that many of us for them to create a full class. Plus, I'm pretty sure the school didn't have the resources to do that. Sheehan: Thank you for clarifying that. Yeah, that was gonna be my next question is, do you think that's endemic in American schools? They don't have the resources to teach children of immigrants. Serrano: Definitely. I mean, even though I'm not technically an immigrant, right. Because of my experience of coming from a different educational system and really living in, in outside of the United States and then coming in and learning the language, I did experience a little bit of what some folks experience when they transitioned into United States at a young age. So all of my classmates in high school and all my friends--really because our classmates become our friends at that age, especially as you're new in a new city--all of my classmates and friends for the most part were immigrants. Folks who were born outside of the United States. And we were all coming from very different backgrounds. Given the type of industry that prevails in Oxnard, a lot of them were coming from small village in Mexico and/or Central America in which their families were farmers. So when they came to United States, that's what they were gonna do. They were gonna be farm workers. So definitely, a lot of my classmates had never attended a formal school ever in their lives. Some of them were struggling to learn Spanish actually because their first language was an indigenous language. And some of them, you know, were still struggling with the education. So for them, definitely, they needed that kind of low math and low science classes because they didn't have the basic skills to be able to learn more advanced math. But for some of us--and it was, we were the minority, I guess, in that group that had had those opportunities outside of the United States--we were still placed in the same level of math and science, just because our English was just not at the same level as a regular high school student. So there is a lot of diversity, I will say among immigrant youth. And a lot of times we don't get to see that because we are focused only on those who have the biggest needs, I guess. bilingual education ; ESL ; high school ; immigrants ; Spanish 1266 Being in a multi-status family while studying at CSUSM Sheehan: Okay. Yeah. &lt ; laugh&gt ; So moving on then from high school going into college, you said you went to Cal State San Marcos, is that correct? Serrano: Yes. Yes, I decided that when I was looking at all the options, I guess I had, um, really, I didn't have that many options. I was happy and, you know, excited when I got all those accepting letters as a senior, especially, you know, I had you share, I had a tough journey. The reality was that my parents were still farm workers. The reality was my family was still struggling and I was going to get a lot of emotional support, but not financial support. So I was looking for a college that will help me financially. That will feel right for me. I was also looking for that, like home feel to it. And I also knew that I performed better in smaller classrooms. So for me, Cal State San Marcos definitely met all those things I was looking for. Also, I had, initially my sister originally, my older sister started at Cal State San Marcos. So when I chose that school, I also had the hope that we were both gonna be attending together. That ended up not happening. She ended up, unfortunately like many students, dropping out before I was able to join her. But the campus is still within the border region. It's still only a few minutes away from Tijuana and Chula Vista where I actually have a lot of family members. But at the same time, it was not close enough for me to feel like I was gonna go with my family. I still felt, you know, as a teenager, I was also looking to get away from family. So Cal State San Marcos provided that perfect in between. At least for me. And then also once again, being a smaller campus, a campus that had small class sizes. Also, we have a college assistant migrant program who once again, as a daughter of farm workers, provided a lot of support, especially my first year. So all of those were like incentives for me to pick Cal State San Marcos and decide to move back in 2008. college ; immigration status ; San Marcos ; undocumented 1692 Student Activism and the National Latino Research Center Sheehan: I have a, well, that leads me to my next question, actually. Coming from a multi-status family, did that impact your choice of career? Serrano: It did. It did. I think, indirectly, but it did. I went to high school once again, it kind of all goes back to high school years, right. ‘Cause for most of us, those are our formative years, right. The years where, even though we're making decisions unconsciously, that ends up impacting what we do. So when I was in high school, this was in 2006. I remember very vividly that Congress was having a conversation around undocumented immigrants and around, and how some politicians at the time were really pushing to criminalize undocumented immigrants. Currently being undocumented in the United States is a civil offense. It's not a criminal offense, but at the time there were a lot of pushing, a lot of conversations around criminalizing that, really making it a felony to be undocumented and or helping undocumented folks. So as a teenager that was literally struggling to learn English struggling, like kind of in a way I feel identified with the immigrant experience. I knew my parents were undocumented. Most of my friends were immigrants and a lot of them were undocumented. I felt these folks were speaking directly to my community, right. Directly to my family. Directly about my friends. And I knew that it wasn't true. Everything that they were saying was not true. That was not reflective of my experience and what I was seeing every day. So, 2006, there was a mass movement around immigrant rights. A push for an immigration reform and really to change that dialogue about how we were talking about undocumented immigrants. And as a high school student, I just jumped on board. I joined the protests. I ended up walking out of my high school. Like a lot of folks did back in 2006, we saw high school walkouts all throughout the state of California. I joined that movement, not knowing anything. I didn't know what the real implications of the conversations were. I didn't know how Congress works. I didn't know how we make laws. I just knew that what I was hearing and what I was watching on TV, like through the news was not right. So fast forward to when I started as a student at Cal State San Marcos. I had already had my first encounter with MEChA, which stands for Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan. And as a high school student, a lot of high schools do have MEChA. My high school didn’t. But when we started, you know, getting involved in organizing walkouts and protests, it was college students at the nearest community college who were involved with MEChA, who came out to make sure that police was not harassing us. To come out, to tell us like, Okay, this is what you do to stay safe during a protest. college ; immigrant rights ; immigration status ; MEChA ; National Latino Research Center ; San Marcos ; student activism 2125 From student activist to community organizer Sheehan: &lt ; laugh&gt ; . And so what resources can people use in North County that you've helped develop? Serrano: Yeah. So, through Universidad Popular we have developed classes, community classes where folks can actually start learning about the history of Latinos in the United States. It's all coming from a Chicano Studies lens. And for me like that, I also, it was in a Chicano Studies classes where I felt like empowered and I was able to feel that I could merge, right, like my knowledge and my experience with my education. So we definitely find that that's the perfect platform for, uh, to start that. So, we also have classes that help folks learn the history and civics of the United States to then be able to become citizens. So a lot of folks don't know, but undocumented folks, sorry, immigrants. Immigrants who are applying to become U.S. citizens have to pass a history and civics test before they're able to do that. So we help them study. We help them connect with attorneys or immigration attorneys that are able to, you know, assist them in the process of filling out their application. I myself sometimes serve as the interpreter. So I actually go with folks who are eligible to take their interviews in Spanish. I sit through there and I help them translate. And then, you know, we help them get through the finish line of becoming U.S. citizens. And after that, I help them register to vote. And then we also have some voter education classes and just activities in general, every time there's an election, in which we help first, new citizens register to vote, learning how to vote. Because voting is not as easy as it seems for those of us who are fluent in English and who are, um, grew up around our electoral system. And also, just learning about the candidates and, you know, the information or where to find information about the candidates. So you can make the right decisions for yourself and for your families. I also have helped develop an alert system specifically here in North County and that is part of what I've been doing now for many, many years on a volunteer basis. We developed an alert system that lets folks know when there is the presence of a checkpoint, a police--usually they're called DUI checkpoints--but the reality, we know that in the immigrant community, the perception is definitely that they are not there to catch folks who are driving under the influence, but really to catch folks who are driving without a license. Which is a lot of undocumented folks. And we haven't seen this in the last few years. But over 10 years ago, when this system started, we used to see a lot of collaboration with Border Patrol. So, I personally witnessed DUI checkpoints in which Border Patrol was standing right next to the officer or a block away. Right. So if you were somebody that was driving without a license and you look a certain way, you were Spanish speaker, you were for the most part presumed to be undocumented, and Border Patrol will be there to ask for your immigration status. And we also, unfortunately, documented some stories of folks that ended up being put in deportation procedures through this process. So we helped create an alert system in which when there's a DUI checkpoint in our community, when there's a Border Patrol checkpoint and, or an immigration raid, you know, in North County. And by North County, we really mean all the communities that touch the 78 and 76 corridors. So the cities of Oceanside and Vista, San Marcos, Escondido, and all of the unincorporated areas of Valley Center, Pauma Valley, Rincon, Pala, Fallbrook. Whenever there is one of those instances, we're able to send out a text message alert that goes to over 8,000 unique contacts. Plus, we're able to also to post information on our social media. All combined, we are able to reach anything between 50,000 to 100,000 community members, primarily Spanish speakers who live in North County. And a lot of them we know are immigrants. Alianza Comunitaria ; Border Patrol ; DUI checkpoint ; immigrant rights ; immigrants ; immigration status ; law enforcement ; North County ; social media ; Universidad Popular 2819 Advocating for Immigrant Rights Sheehan: That's really, really incredible. You said you've seen these DUI checkpoints where really Border Patrol is kind of hanging out there trying to catch undocumented persons. Have you experienced any other issues that immigrants face in, you know, the border region? Serrano: Yeah. I mean and, you know, just to clarify, that was many years back. Like close to 10 years back. And the reason I make that clarification is because things have changed. Policies and laws really for the state of California has changed that make that illegal to an extent &lt ; laugh&gt ; . So, I just wanna clarify that because I don't want the departments coming after me, like, you're saying we're violating the law. That's not true. Yes. But you did at one point. &lt ; laugh&gt ; Yes. I mean, there is a lot of challenges. Like I said, at this point I've been working with the immigrant community in North County for over 10 years. And there are challenges at all levels, from parents trying to navigate the schools. To folks not being able to access healthcare. We know that, unfortunately, undocumented folks, even if they qualify because of income and you know, the other requirements for medical, they're not able to access it just because of their immigration status. So I had to, even with my own family, have to navigate the system, or try to navigate the system because there's really no navigation when you're being denied services, because you don't have health insurance. And you're not able to access health insurance because you cannot afford private. And the ones that are subsidized by the government, you don't qualify because of your immigration status. So for me personally, that has been an important fight to ensure that our safety net is open, right. For the state of California our safety net is open for all of us, regardless of immigration status. We have been able to have some win. So as my work out in the community through Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular, I became an advocate for immigrant rights. So right now, we are in April 6th, 2022. And we're very excited because starting May 1st, so in a few couple of weeks, undocumented immigrants 50 years and older will be able to access full scope Medi-Cal if they qualify based on income regardless of their immigration status. So that is a huge win that took us many years. Literally, I had trips to these, sorry, to Sacramento. I have taken the 12-hour bus--and I know how long it takes--12-hour bus to Sacramento with undocumented folks. With folks who are cancer survivors. With folks who are dealing with diabetes and all kinds of chronic disease from North County. Here from our local community who have been living here 20, 30 years. Who have U.S. citizen kids, right. Who are doing everything on their end to be good members of our community. Who are blocked from receiving health services because of their immigration status. So I had the privilege of getting to know them, learning their story, helping them prepare and really become advocates for their own, uh, for themselves and their families. And now, you know, a few years later we are seeing some results from that advocacy. As we are changing the laws and really changing the way undocumented immigrants are perceived in our community. Of course, that has been statewide efforts, right. Like we are part of some statewide coalitions that have been able to bring us those results. But I can tell you that North County, San Diego has been part of all those conversations throughout the years in part, because of the work that me and other folks have been doing. Alianza Comunitaria ; health care ; immigrants ; immigration status ; legislation ; North County ; Universidad Popular 3294 SB54 California Values Act and Immigration Enforcement Sheehan: And so that, is it a bill or a law that's going into effect in May? That's a big win for the immigrant rights group. Is there any other progress that kind of stands out to you in the past 20 years? Serrano: Definitely. For me, the one that I was also very passionate and really sparked my interest in learning how advocacy works at the state level is the passage of SB 54 or the California Values Act back in 2000 and 2017. &lt ; laugh&gt ; Yes, it went into effect in January of 2018. So the SB 54, the California Values Act is also known at the national level as the California Sanctuary Law, which really prohibits law enforcement from collaborating with immigration enforcement. That's the law that I was hinting earlier &lt ; laugh&gt ; about me making sure that I clarify that those incidents happened before 2018. Because in the state of California--and we were the first state in the nation--and actually now a few years later, some states have been following our lead in ensuring that law enforcement, your local police department are not in the business of deporting community members. When we first started talking about--going back to my experience here in North County, right. I was involved in the community. I knew about this DUI checkpoints. They were becoming a ridiculous thing where we documented checkpoints on a Tuesday at 10:00 AM in front of a high school in Escondido. What drunk driver is driving at 10:00 AM in front of a high school on a Tuesday? And I mean, I know there might be folks driving under the influence at the time, but they’re definitely folks who need help. Because we were seeing the DUI checkpoints and not outside of bars, right. They're not there--once again, it was obvious to us that they were not targeting drunk drivers. They were targeting undocumented immigrants. And they were targeting because they were able to impound the car because at the time undocumented immigrants couldn't get a license. And once again, we were seeing immigration enforcement presence. So we were able to first tackle the license. So the state of California became the first, uh, one of the first states to give undocumented driver's licenses. But for us here in North County, we knew that the problem was really the collaboration, the close collaboration between immigration enforcement and law enforcement. A lot of folks don't know this, but the Escondido Police Department was one of the first ones to launch a pilot where ICE agents, or immigration enforcement agents, were literally riding along with the police department. They had an office within our department headquarters. They were one in the same, basically. That later translated in laws in the states of Arizona and other places. So we knew that North County had something to do with the birth of that collaboration. So we needed to be part of the disentanglement of that collaboration. We worked with legislators for many years, and finally in 2018 in the state of California, now it's illegal for police departments to fully collaborate with immigration enforcement. Unfortunately, there's still some exceptions to the law, so there continues to be collaboration. We continue to fight every single one of the forms of collaboration. But for the most part, the state of California is able to say that our law enforcement doesn't collaborate with immigration enforcement. And that has been part of the result of the advocacy that happened statewide. But I can say that Escondido specifically was constantly brought up in those conversations because we were one of the first departments to start that collaboration. So then we were definitely one of the first to stop after the state law was passed. Sheehan: And so do other border states like Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, do they have similar laws to what California is or do they even consider having those laws? Serrano: I think in the state of Arizona and Texas actually had been having the opposite fight. The state of Arizona was one of the first, I think it was the first to launch it statewide, to not just allow the collaboration, but it was almost like demand law enforcement to collaborate with immigration enforcement and demand law enforcement to become one in the same with immigration. So, yes, Arizona, sorry, California is right now the only one that has that state law, at least for the bordering states. I think the other one that will be kind of like a good example of the work on the opposite will be New York. And definitely some of the smaller states are. Their laws are not as strong as ours, but they are definitely on the way there to hopefully disentangle that. California Sanctuary Law ; California Values Act ; DUI checkpoints ; Escondido ; immigrant rights ; immigration status ; law enforcement ; North County 3612 Growing Latino Population, Redistricting in San Diego County, and Conclusion Sheehan: So that kind of brings me to the end of my questions here. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything you'd like to share? Serrano: Um, let me think. &lt ; laugh&gt ; I know I talked to you about many, many different things, but I think for me, something that resonates a lot the work that we've been doing is recently the whole San Diego County went through the redistricting process. For those who don't know, redistricting happens every 10 years after a census count. Now, when I arrived to this region, it was right before the last census in 2010. I arrived to North County in 2008. And I knew that there was a lot of Latinos, a lot of Spanish speakers, right. I felt right at home. But the 2010 census was severely undercounted Latinos. Now in 2020 census, I was able join the efforts to ensure that folks were counted. And even though we continue to see a severe undercount for our communities, now as we have the count and we get to redistrict our community, we get to say that the North County district, which right now will be District 5 for the County Board of Supervisors, is at least 45% Latino. So that to me just goes to show the amount of growth that our Latino community, immigrant communities, have had in North County. And, it was recent, but we are starting to see a trend on the change of policy makers. So we are seeing a lot of Latinos, a lot of immigrants and/or the children of immigrants being elected to school boards, being elected to city councils. You know, crossing fingers. So we will see them at the Board of Supervisors, and we will see them at the state and federal level representing North County. And I think for me, as somebody that has done a lot of work in this region in the last 10 years, it just goes to show the power our community has when we organize ourselves and we imagine what can be done. It wasn't there before. Because I remember 2008 when I arrived, this was a very conservative community, and it continues to be conservative, but it was, uh, I remember it was at Cal State San Marcos, the first time a peer, somebody my age called me beaner and told me to go back to Mexico. So that is the reality for a lot of families in North County. The racism that was just open and accepted, right. The practice by our policy makers and even by our neighbors of denigrating you because you're Mexican. Telling you to speak English because this is the United States or telling us to go back to Mexico. Even for folks who are not even originally from Mexico, right. Our Central American community members were being told to go back to Mexico. Fast forward to 10 years now, even though I recognize that we continue to be a very conservative community, North County is changing. And it's changing because the number of Latinos is increasing, and we are now creating a Latino leadership in a region. And I don't know if our administrators at Cal State San Marcos know, but in part is because of the presence of Cal State San Marcos. Because nowadays as an alum, as a Latina, as a Spanish speaker, I run into so many folks who have attended San Marcos, who are from this community and who are creating change. And we expect that that will continue to create an impact in our region. Sheehan: And so in the 2010 census, there were more immigrants here than the census showed. And then in 2020, that number had grown. What do you think keeps people from wanting to participate in that census? Is it a fear of deportation? Serrano: Yeah, definitely. When you're undocumented you want nothing to do with the government. Government is your enemy. And in part that has been because of our doing, as the United States. We have used every-- you know, it's almost like when we talk about immigration, it comes in waves, right. And every time that there is this like conservative tough on immigrant approach, we create fear, and we create cases in which folks get deported from our communities. Obama, the Obama administration has the record on deportations in all of the country. So when a Democrat president is deporting your family, and now you have another new administration, even if it's Democrat, Republican. As an immigrant, you fear them. They're your enemy. Regardless of who they are like, they're your enemy because they are the ones responsible for separating your family and/or separating a family that you know. So when you are undocumented, the government is your enemy and any interaction you avoid. And that's what we saw with the census, right. Even though the census should have absolutely nothing to do with immigration enforcement, folks are afraid of it because they don't know how it could be used against them. Also, unfortunately in 2020, the president that we had at the time, President Trump decided to make it a political move and decided and pushed really hard to include immigration questions on the census, which include a citizenship question. He really fought really hard to include those questions. Even though a court decided not to side with him, and they ended up siding with creating a census that will be more inviting for folks to participate versus creating questions that will prevent folks from feeling as safe participating. And those questions didn't make it to the questionnaire. The president coming on TV already saying that he wanted to use that as part of his immigration enforcement, nobody could take that away from us. So it was fresh on people's memories and I myself, right. Like me and my team, we were out there doing outreach for the census, and we will always get questions. “And how is Trump gonna use this against me?”, right. “How is this gonna be part of the deportation process?” And I can tell them a hundred times that that was not the case, but once again, they had already seen the president be on TV saying that it would be used against them. So those were some of the challenges that we saw with the census. Cal State San Marcos ; Escondido ; immigrants ; Latino population ; North County ; redistricting ; San Marcos ; U.S. Census Oral History Lilian Serrano is a California State San Marcos alum. She graduated with a degree in Human Development. Lilian worked with the National Latino Research Center (NLRC) at Cal State San Marcos before moving on to work with Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular. In this interview, Lilian discusses family life and growing up in Tijuana and Oxnard, her experiences as a student activist at CSUSM, and her work as an advocate for immigrant rights in North County. Robert Sheehan: So today is April the sixth, 2022. It&#039 ; s a Wednesday at 1:03 PM. I am Robert Sheehan, a graduate student at California State University, San Marcos. And today I am interviewing Lilian Serrano for the university library, special collections, oral history project. Lilian, thank you for being here with me today. Lilian Serrano: Uh, yes. Thank you, Robert &lt ; laugh&gt ; Sheehan: I&#039 ; d like to first start kind of by asking you about your childhood: when and where were you born? Serrano: I was actually born in Chula Vista here in San Diego County, very close to the border, but I was raised in Tijuana. So actually my parents didn&#039 ; t live in Chula Vista at the time when I was born. My parents, just like many other border residents, took advantage of the geographic location where they were living at, and seek the best healthcare they could afford. And for my parents who were Tijuana residents, that meant Chula Vista. So I was born in Chula Vista. Sheehan: Okay. So you were born as an American citizen? Serrano: Yes. Sheehan: And your parents were still in Mexico? Serrano: Yes. Like I said my family is a transnational family that has made Tijuana/San Diego our home for many generations now. So, my parents were residents of Tijuana. They&#039 ; re Mexican citizens. And there is actually, um, contrary to public belief, there&#039 ; s actually nothing illegal about folks coming in and -- Robert, give me one second. Sheehan: Sure. [Interview interrupted] Sheehan: Hi, we are resuming the interview at 1:05. Lilian, you were talking about your parents in Tijuana and how they, uh, it was a common thing for people to move between the border. Serrano: Yeah, it continues to be actually a common thing for residents of the border region. My family has been going back and forth from the border to the U.S. and Mexico side for at least five generations now. But my family, it is all originally from Mexico. So, my parents as Mexican citizens and as Tijuana residents -- actually, both my parents were born and raised in Tijuana. Their whole lives, they cross back and forth between San Diego to Tijuana. They had at the time when I was born, they had their tourist visas. And like I was mentioning, contrary to popular belief, there&#039 ; s nothing illegal about folks being able, uh, receiving medical service in the U.S. as long as they&#039 ; re paying for them. And that&#039 ; s what my parents did at the time. They were able to, you know, afford to pay for every doctor visit, every medicine, everything that involves giving birth. So they did. And I was born in Chula Vista. And so did the rest of my sisters. So, there&#039 ; s three of us. All of us were born in Chula Vista and then actually a lot of my cousins and even just family friends that I grew up with. All of us, a lot of us, were born in, this U.S. side of the border, but we lived Tijuana to Mexican parents. Sheehan: That&#039 ; s very, very interesting. So do you still live on the American side of the border? Serrano: Yes, so actually it wasn&#039 ; t until I was probably about two weeks right before my 14th birthday that my family decided--and I mean they had been talking about it for a while--but they decided that it was time we made the hard decision of leaving, our hometown, my parent&#039 ; s hometown, right, Tijuana, to the United States. And we moved to Oxnard, California in Ventura County. A small [unclear] cultural town where my great grandma had moved, like I said, many years before I was even born. And my grandparents were living there at the time. So my parents made the decision to move us to the United States. And I&#039 ; ve been residing in the United States since I was two weeks before my 14th birthday until present. Sheehan: So do you still have family then south of the border in Tijuana? Serrano: Yeah, the house where I grew up, we still have it there. So I go visit. I still have a lot of family friends, family members, you know, aunts and uncles, cousins. Some of my cousins who are U.S. citizens that continue to live in Tijuana, I don&#039 ; t think really, they have ever in their entire lives, and they&#039 ; re like in their thirties now, ever lived actually live in the United States. They come visit, but they don&#039 ; t live here, their U.S. citizens that live in Tijuana. Sheehan: Wow. So what did your parents do for living, Serrano: When now, or &lt ; laugh&gt ; ? Sheehan: Well, both when back then and now what do they do? Serrano: So, at the, uh, when, you know, back when I was born my parents had their own business. So, you know, that goes back to the ability to have a visa and actually be able to afford medical services. Also, I mean, giving birth back then, according to what my parents share with me, wasn&#039 ; t as expensive as it is now, right. Affording a medical services wasn&#039 ; t as expense. So my parents were definitely what some folks will consider maybe lower middle class, &#039 ; cause they had their own small business. A family run business. And so that&#039 ; s what they did for a living. As things start getting more complicated and you know, big corporations start coming in and it was just harder for them to keep up with their small business. That is actually a big part. That and the reality that hit them, that they had three girls aging, almost approaching college time and looking at college tuitions, not being as affordable. That the reality of them having to move the family to the United States to seek better opportunities. That&#039 ; s when they made that tough decision. So, they shut down their business and they moved to, like I said, to Oxnard, California. And Oxnard is a primarily agricultural town. So when they first arrived, my parents went from being business owners to them being farm workers. So my dad actually worked out in the tomato fields. It wasn&#039 ; t for a long time, but he nonetheless, the continue of the years, he continued to do work that indirectly was related to the agricultural field. From packing plants to transportation centers, and warehouse and everything that is involved within the production of fresh produce. And so did my mom. Actually, my mom until not a long time ago worked at packing vegetables. Just different variety of vegetables--tomatoes, avocados, broccoli. I think the list goes on. But my parents were for all my high school and most of my college years, they were considered farm workers. Nowadays as they are a little older--and they just recently moved to San Diego County--my dad is not working right now because of his health condition. And my mom, is uh, she&#039 ; s working at a manufacturing job. Labor work. Sheehan: And what was their small business in Mexico? What did they do? Serrano: Yeah, they had a little store, a little market. It&#039 ; s called abarrotes in Mexico. So, they sell a little bit of everything. You know, fresh produce, meats. Just like any corner convenient little market store that you can think of. That that&#039 ; s what my parents did. That business was actually originally opened by my great-grandparents when they first arrived to Tijuana and it was passed down generations until it was my parents who, once again, had to make the tough decision of shutting it down. Sheehan: So that really must have been a difficult decision to make, to leave all that behind. Serrano: It definitely was. I know that they invested many years of their lives. I mean, my mom grew up in that business. By the time my mom was born that my great grandparents already had the business. So, you know, my mom grew up there. I spent most the first, at least half of my life right there. Anything from having to help clean up the business to sometimes as I was getting older, having to take care of the registry and, you know, like just handling cash, fixing, restocking, everything, right? Like we, we have that in common with my mom where we both, we all grew up in that store. But yeah, it was a tough decision, but I think, you know, like most parents, they did what they had to do. Sheehan: So growing up, you went to school all the way up until the beginning of high school in Mexico. Serrano: Yeah, actually, I did up to one year of middle school. And because of when like the U.S. and Mexico, we don&#039 ; t have a synched schedule when we cut the birthdays to like a new grade. I ended up following this like gap in between, so I skipped eighth grade. &lt ; laugh&gt ; I didn&#039 ; t have eighth grade either in Mexico or here. So I did everything from preschool to seventh grade in Mexico. And then I moved to Oxnard to start ninth grade, or high school. So that&#039 ; s where I started my high school. And I did all my high school in Oxnard. Graduated from Oxnard High School. Sheehan: And how was that transition from a Mexican middle school to an American high school? Serrano: It was interesting. &lt ; laugh&gt ; It was very, um, I mean, once again, I had the privilege I think that a lot of folks don&#039 ; t have of my parents were, um, used to be able to afford for me to go to private schools. Now they were not the biggest, most popular or, you know, expensive private schools, but nonetheless, they were private schools. So I was able to get some extra help in my classes. I was used to my class sizes being about 15 to 20 students and that 20 students was a big class for us. Most of, for the most part, I had small classes in size. And I used to, you know, have just your regular, I guess, subjects. Right. History, um, I didn&#039 ; t have English. I had Spanish. English was taught as the foreign language. So when I transitioned to the United States, I transitioned from small classroom size, um, class to now being put in a public school in a community that lacks a lot of resources. So I was thrown into high school with now being the culture clash of my class now double in size. I didn&#039 ; t have as much support from teachers plus the language. Right. Like I struggled with my English. I didn&#039 ; t really, I don&#039 ; t think I really spoke English before I started high school. So now I had to learn the language. So I was placed in ELD or ESL classes. I was placed also in what was offered at the time for bilingual classes, which was really lower like level math and the lowest level of science and basically all of the subjects. And even at the time, right. I remember very clearly having the conversation with my math teacher. They did an assessment ; my math skills were actually really advanced for ninth graders. Because once again, I had had the support and I develop my math skills. But because of language, I was not able to be placed on the correct level of class because that level of class was not offered for ESL students. So I had to be placed in pre-algebra even though I had skills to be placed, I think in like geometry, which was at least one year, if not, two advanced. But I just didn&#039 ; t understand the language &lt ; laugh&gt ; . So that was a challenge for sure. I was also, once again, because I understood very clearly to me that the sacrifice my family was making was just to give me and my sisters opportunity to attend college. And me and my older sister had also that pressure, right. Now we have to make sure that our family sacrifice was worth it. So we had always, you know, since my first day of high school I had in mind that I was there to learn and to meet all the requirements to go to a four-year university. So as an ESL student that really meant having to reclassify, right? Like having to go through the whole process, finish and learn and acquire enough English skills to be able to be placed in college prep classes to then be able to meet the A through G requirements. All of that in the lapse of four years. And actually, I was able to achieve that. I ended up, um, I always kind of joke, but not really with my friends that I had to do the A through G requirements, which is supposed to take you four years. I completed those in two years. &#039 ; Cause I took the first two years of my high school to really just learn the language. And then, like I said, gain enough proficiency to be able to be placed in college prep classes. And then it took me two years, which meant took classes before school, after school, attended community college classes during the summer. And any opportunity that I could to, like, I took to be able to gain those, uh, or be able to meet the A through G requirements that allowed me then my senior year apply to a four-year university. And not just apply, but actually be accepted. So I gained acceptance to a few universities actually. I think, I don&#039 ; t remember receiving any letter denying my acceptance. Then it became a matter of where I was gonna go. And I chose Cal State San Marcos. Sheehan: So that was quite the journey then to come from Mexico and, like you said, to only have basically two years of that kind of more advanced high school because the school didn&#039 ; t have a bilingual program. So they placed you at a lower level. Do you think the-- Serrano: I mean, we did have a bilingual program, but the bilingual program was, we didn&#039 ; t have all the levels of math, all the levels of science proficiency in bilingual, right. Like, they just had like the beginner. So for those of us who had had the opportunity to actually have, uh, acquire some, you know, skills in our home countries or the countries we were coming from, and we were placed in the beginner just because they, it was not that many of us for them to create a full class. Plus, I&#039 ; m pretty sure the school didn&#039 ; t have the resources to do that. Sheehan: Thank you for clarifying that. Yeah, that was gonna be my next question is, do you think that&#039 ; s endemic in American schools? They don&#039 ; t have the resources to teach children of immigrants. Serrano: Definitely. I mean, even though I&#039 ; m not technically an immigrant, right. Because of my experience of coming from a different educational system and really living in, in outside of the United States and then coming in and learning the language, I did experience a little bit of what some folks experience when they transitioned into United States at a young age. So all of my classmates in high school and all my friends--really because our classmates become our friends at that age, especially as you&#039 ; re new in a new city--all of my classmates and friends for the most part were immigrants. Folks who were born outside of the United States. And we were all coming from very different backgrounds. Given the type of industry that prevails in Oxnard, a lot of them were coming from small village in Mexico and/or Central America in which their families were farmers. So when they came to United States, that&#039 ; s what they were gonna do. They were gonna be farm workers. So definitely, a lot of my classmates had never attended a formal school ever in their lives. Some of them were struggling to learn Spanish actually because their first language was an indigenous language. And some of them, you know, were still struggling with the education. So for them, definitely, they needed that kind of low math and low science classes because they didn&#039 ; t have the basic skills to be able to learn more advanced math. But for some of us--and it was, we were the minority, I guess, in that group that had had those opportunities outside of the United States--we were still placed in the same level of math and science, just because our English was just not at the same level as a regular high school student. So there is a lot of diversity, I will say among immigrant youth. And a lot of times we don&#039 ; t get to see that because we are focused only on those who have the biggest needs, I guess. Sheehan: So in your opinion, what would be the way that schools could go about helping that education process? Is there a way that someone who has more advanced skills like yourself in math would be able to apply those skills successfully in a high school setting? Serrano: Well, I think for that, it would require for us to really invest in our English learner programs. We know that, unfortunately, our English learner programs tend to be underfunded. Right. They just don&#039 ; t have the resources to really address the need. The need is big. We still have a lot of kids who are U.S. citizens who were born and attend, you know, all the K through 12 in the United States, but that never really reclassify, never really gained that proficiency in English in part, because they don&#039 ; t, um, you know, when they get home, they primarily speak Spanish. And they attend schools who don&#039 ; t have the resources to provide that more one on one that like individual support that a lot of students require. So I really think to address that question, like really the problem is that our schools are underserved. We don&#039 ; t have enough resources. We don&#039 ; t have enough teachers. We don&#039 ; t pay our teachers enough. Like we don&#039 ; t have enough specialized teachers. I still remember, and that was not my experience. But in my last year of high school, the amount of ESL students that we had in my high school was so big that we didn&#039 ; t have enough ESL teachers. So we ended up opening one class with a teacher who had, I think studied two years of Spanish &lt ; laugh&gt ; or something like that. So this is somebody that is not proficient in Spanish but ended up having to take an ESL class just because we didn&#039 ; t have enough teachers. And I can imagine, right. That was probably also a tough call for our administrators. But unfortunately, when we don&#039 ; t have, we don&#039 ; t invest in bilingual teachers, when we don&#039 ; t invest in our bilingual programs, that is the result, right. We have students who are not being challenged in the classroom, like I felt I wasn&#039 ; t. But also, students who actually need a lot of support just to catch up with their classmates and are not receiving that, and therefore are staying behind. So we are really underserving our students by doing that, right. Our classroom should be an environment where you should be able to learn basic skills, but also to be pushed and challenged. And we are, at least in my experience in high school, at an ESL program, that was not the case. Sheehan: And do you remember the percentage of kids who graduated from your graduating class? Serrano: &lt ; laugh&gt ; No. I don&#039 ; t remember. That was a long time ago. Sheehan: Okay. Yeah. &lt ; laugh&gt ; So moving on then from high school going into college, you said you went to Cal State San Marcos, is that correct? Serrano: Yes. Yes, I decided that when I was looking at all the options, I guess I had, um, really, I didn&#039 ; t have that many options. I was happy and, you know, excited when I got all those accepting letters as a senior, especially, you know, I had you share, I had a tough journey. The reality was that my parents were still farm workers. The reality was my family was still struggling and I was going to get a lot of emotional support, but not financial support. So I was looking for a college that will help me financially. That will feel right for me. I was also looking for that, like home feel to it. And I also knew that I performed better in smaller classrooms. So for me, Cal State San Marcos definitely met all those things I was looking for. Also, I had, initially my sister originally, my older sister started at Cal State San Marcos. So when I chose that school, I also had the hope that we were both gonna be attending together. That ended up not happening. She ended up, unfortunately like many students, dropping out before I was able to join her. But the campus is still within the border region. It&#039 ; s still only a few minutes away from Tijuana and Chula Vista where I actually have a lot of family members. But at the same time, it was not close enough for me to feel like I was gonna go with my family. I still felt, you know, as a teenager, I was also looking to get away from family. So Cal State San Marcos provided that perfect in between. At least for me. And then also once again, being a smaller campus, a campus that had small class sizes. Also, we have a college assistant migrant program who once again, as a daughter of farm workers, provided a lot of support, especially my first year. So all of those were like incentives for me to pick Cal State San Marcos and decide to move back in 2008. Sheehan: Very interesting. So what did you do for financial support then? Was it just kind of grants and student loans and things like that? Serrano: Yep. &lt ; laugh&gt ; So it was grants. It was, um, like I mentioned through camp, I was able to access some scholarships. And then I was able to, or ended up having to, sign up for student loans. Yeah. Sheehan: Mm-hmm, &lt ; affirmative&gt ; very much the American experience right now. &lt ; laugh&gt ; So you&#039 ; re one of three sisters. You had said your older sister had dropped out of college. Did your younger sister attend Cal State San Marcos or any other college? Serrano: So actually, yes, my older sister that dropping from Cal State San Marcos, just to later on, actually, she was part of the first class of Mira Costa students who graduated with a bachelor&#039 ; s. She has a Bachelor&#039 ; s of Science from Mira Costa College. And that was recent. And my younger sister, she is currently a student at UC Irvine. Sheehan: Wow. So you were the middle daughter and ended up with the first degree. Was that the first degree in your family? Serrano: Yes. Yes, that was the first degree in my family. And yes, I know. I ended up being the middle child as an example, I guess. &lt ; laugh&gt ; . Sheehan: And what was your degree in? Serrano: Mine? Sheehan: Yes. Serrano: I ended up doing my bachelor&#039 ; s in human development with my emphasis in health services. Sheehan: And then that led into your current position, or how did you end up where you are now? Serrano: I ended up doing a double major, sorry. I should have--I did a double major in Human Development and Spanish. So I wanted to make sure that I didn&#039 ; t lose my proficiency in the language, but also, I had always really liked literature and, you know, Spanish is my first language, so I felt a lot more comfortable in that language. So I ended up studying both. When I first started at Cal State San Marcos, I knew I had to find my home. &#039 ; Cause my family was far, far away. Especially because when my parents decided to move the family and overstay their visas, they became undocumented. Right. So even though if they had, you know like their whole lives, they had been moving back and forward and, like I shared, my great grandparents, my grandparents, they were all now, actually at the time I think they were already U.S. citizens. By the time we moved. If not, they were very close to becoming U.S. citizens. My parents only had visas. So when they moved and overstayed, they became undocumented. So something that wasn&#039 ; t thinking of when I picked the college is that because we are in the border now, there was an imaginary line dividing me and my parents. The way that our immigration system defines the border is a hundred miles from the port of entry. So for those of us who live in San Diego County, especially those of us who live in North County, we&#039 ; re very familiar with the Border Patrol checkpoints set on the 15 freeway and on the 5, which, you know, are around the areas of Temecula and San Clemente. So my parents, when I first started college, my freshman year, they were still undocumented. So they couldn&#039 ; t risk, and I myself couldn&#039 ; t ask them to risk, their ability to be with my younger sister who at the time was I think, a first grader, by crossing that checkpoint. Because every time an undocumented immigrant drives through that checkpoint, there&#039 ; s a possibility of being arrested and deported. So I, I was not--I knew about the checkpoint, but I didn&#039 ; t understand all the complications that come with it until I had already submitted everything for Cal State San Marcos. I had my orientation day and then I had to have that tough conversation that my parents couldn&#039 ; t drop me off for orientation. They did end up dropping me off for my first day at the dorms. But after that, I was basically on my own. If I wanted to see my parents, I would have to either drive or take the train and me being me, the U.S. citizen crossing that checkpoint versus my parents who were undocumented. So, I forgot what I was saying. &lt ; laugh&gt ; Sheehan: &lt ; laugh&gt ; That&#039 ; s all right. Serrano: [unclear]. Sheehan: I have a, well, that leads me to my next question, actually. Coming from a multi-status family, did that impact your choice of career? Serrano: It did. It did. I think, indirectly, but it did. I went to high school once again, it kind of all goes back to high school years, right. &#039 ; Cause for most of us, those are our formative years, right. The years where, even though we&#039 ; re making decisions unconsciously, that ends up impacting what we do. So when I was in high school, this was in 2006. I remember very vividly that Congress was having a conversation around undocumented immigrants and around, and how some politicians at the time were really pushing to criminalize undocumented immigrants. Currently being undocumented in the United States is a civil offense. It&#039 ; s not a criminal offense, but at the time there were a lot of pushing, a lot of conversations around criminalizing that, really making it a felony to be undocumented and or helping undocumented folks. So as a teenager that was literally struggling to learn English struggling, like kind of in a way I feel identified with the immigrant experience. I knew my parents were undocumented. Most of my friends were immigrants and a lot of them were undocumented. I felt these folks were speaking directly to my community, right. Directly to my family. Directly about my friends. And I knew that it wasn&#039 ; t true. Everything that they were saying was not true. That was not reflective of my experience and what I was seeing every day. So, 2006, there was a mass movement around immigrant rights. A push for an immigration reform and really to change that dialogue about how we were talking about undocumented immigrants. And as a high school student, I just jumped on board. I joined the protests. I ended up walking out of my high school. Like a lot of folks did back in 2006, we saw high school walkouts all throughout the state of California. I joined that movement, not knowing anything. I didn&#039 ; t know what the real implications of the conversations were. I didn&#039 ; t know how Congress works. I didn&#039 ; t know how we make laws. I just knew that what I was hearing and what I was watching on TV, like through the news was not right. So fast forward to when I started as a student at Cal State San Marcos. I had already had my first encounter with MEChA, which stands for Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan. And as a high school student, a lot of high schools do have MEChA. My high school didn&#039 ; t. But when we started, you know, getting involved in organizing walkouts and protests, it was college students at the nearest community college who were involved with MEChA, who came out to make sure that police was not harassing us. To come out, to tell us like, Okay, this is what you do to stay safe during a protest. They were not instituting the protest &#039 ; cause we were the ones really wanting to do everything, right. But they were there to make sure we were doing it in a safe way. So when I kind of started at Cal State San Marcos, find out we had a MEChA chapter, I knew since like orientation, I&#039 ; m joining this organization &#039 ; cause they&#039 ; re doing what I wanna be doing. So, it is actually through that, that I met one of my mentors, Arcela Nuñez[-Alvarez] who at the time was the director of the National Latino Research Center and the advisor for MEChA, um, that I actually started getting more involved here locally in North County. So a lot my years as a student at Cal State San Marcos, I really spent getting to know North County and the local immigrant rights movement through MEChA. And also, you know, we also got into some trouble at Cal State San Marcos as we were the biggest organization, student organization that represent Latino and Latinx students. And you know, at the time we were look[ing at a] tuition increase. We still--and until this day--Cal State San Marcos still doesn&#039 ; t have a Chicano Studies department. But back then we had even less Chicano professors. So there was a lot of things that I was seeing in my daily life that it just didn&#039 ; t feel right. Didn&#039 ; t feel that that was something, or an environment in which folks like myself could thrive. And my goal was always to try to, you know, create a world where I wanna live in and create a world where I want other generations--future generations--to live in. So I got involved and I was, you know, I struggled a little bit because I was taking classes and then I was doing all this community work and I never saw the bridge. Right. I never saw like the connection for me. So like, no, this is what I do because that&#039 ; s just what feels right to me. And I&#039 ; m going to class because one day I&#039 ; m gonna have a career, but I still didn&#039 ; t know what, &lt ; laugh&gt ; like most college students. So as my college year start--you know, I started approaching the end of my college career, I started seeing that overlap. Right. And I found that overlap initially, actually ended up getting hired as a student assistant. And then later on, I came right after graduation, came in as staff at the National Latino Research Center and in there--which is a department at Cal State San Marcos--I learned a lot about research. But also, I learned how research can be used to really bring attention to issues like that I was seeing. So that&#039 ; s kind of where I started seeing like, Okay, there&#039 ; s an overlap. I can actually do something with this education that I&#039 ; m getting to improve and continue to also use the skills that I learned as an organizer versus an activist. As an organizer in the community. And I can merge both. And I can merge them in a way in which I create the opportunities that I wanna see. Right. And I kind of was able to after graduation and after like a few years of experience working at the NLRC and now, you know, as Universidad Popular, that&#039 ; s what I&#039 ; m doing. I&#039 ; m still continuing to create the spaces and the opportunities that I really wish I had when I was in that position in my life. Right. So for young folks, but also for like our, um, just our immigrant communities in general. Especially in North County, which, once I moved here, I fell in love with this region and also came to find out that this region is severely underserved. If I struggled in Oxnard--like this community is severely underserved. So, I decided that [I&#039 ; d] dedicate my professional career to build resources here in North County. And it was all, you know, it was all as I was trying to merge my worlds into one. &lt ; laugh&gt ; Sheehan: &lt ; laugh&gt ; . And so what resources can people use in North County that you&#039 ; ve helped develop? Serrano: Yeah. So, through Universidad Popular we have developed classes, community classes where folks can actually start learning about the history of Latinos in the United States. It&#039 ; s all coming from a Chicano Studies lens. And for me like that, I also, it was in a Chicano Studies classes where I felt like empowered and I was able to feel that I could merge, right, like my knowledge and my experience with my education. So we definitely find that that&#039 ; s the perfect platform for, uh, to start that. So, we also have classes that help folks learn the history and civics of the United States to then be able to become citizens. So a lot of folks don&#039 ; t know, but undocumented folks, sorry, immigrants. Immigrants who are applying to become U.S. citizens have to pass a history and civics test before they&#039 ; re able to do that. So we help them study. We help them connect with attorneys or immigration attorneys that are able to, you know, assist them in the process of filling out their application. I myself sometimes serve as the interpreter. So I actually go with folks who are eligible to take their interviews in Spanish. I sit through there and I help them translate. And then, you know, we help them get through the finish line of becoming U.S. citizens. And after that, I help them register to vote. And then we also have some voter education classes and just activities in general, every time there&#039 ; s an election, in which we help first, new citizens register to vote, learning how to vote. Because voting is not as easy as it seems for those of us who are fluent in English and who are, um, grew up around our electoral system. And also, just learning about the candidates and, you know, the information or where to find information about the candidates. So you can make the right decisions for yourself and for your families. I also have helped develop an alert system specifically here in North County and that is part of what I&#039 ; ve been doing now for many, many years on a volunteer basis. We developed an alert system that lets folks know when there is the presence of a checkpoint, a police--usually they&#039 ; re called DUI checkpoints--but the reality, we know that in the immigrant community, the perception is definitely that they are not there to catch folks who are driving under the influence, but really to catch folks who are driving without a license. Which is a lot of undocumented folks. And we haven&#039 ; t seen this in the last few years. But over 10 years ago, when this system started, we used to see a lot of collaboration with Border Patrol. So, I personally witnessed DUI checkpoints in which Border Patrol was standing right next to the officer or a block away. Right. So if you were somebody that was driving without a license and you look a certain way, you were Spanish speaker, you were for the most part presumed to be undocumented, and Border Patrol will be there to ask for your immigration status. And we also, unfortunately, documented some stories of folks that ended up being put in deportation procedures through this process. So we helped create an alert system in which when there&#039 ; s a DUI checkpoint in our community, when there&#039 ; s a Border Patrol checkpoint and, or an immigration raid, you know, in North County. And by North County, we really mean all the communities that touch the 78 and 76 corridors. So the cities of Oceanside and Vista, San Marcos, Escondido, and all of the unincorporated areas of Valley Center, Pauma Valley, Rincon, Pala, Fallbrook. Whenever there is one of those instances, we&#039 ; re able to send out a text message alert that goes to over 8,000 unique contacts. Plus, we&#039 ; re able to also to post information on our social media. All combined, we are able to reach anything between 50,000 to 100,000 community members, primarily Spanish speakers who live in North County. And a lot of them we know are immigrants. Sheehan: That&#039 ; s incredible. So there&#039 ; s this whole support system for immigrants in North County that you&#039 ; ve created. Is that something that you&#039 ; ve done in, what was the timeframe on that? Serrano: So when I first kind of joined a group, it was kind of baby. It was barely community members. A lot of them college students, a lot of them Cal State San Marcos students who were going to these checkpoints to start documenting what was happening. Right. And they will just, because they were already there, they will just start texting their family and friends who will then forward that text message to their families and friends. So it was like a tree. And this started back in 2009. I joined the group in 2010, so months after it was first created. And we knew that we needed to reach people faster and also in a more effective way. So, I was able to, as a student, just volunteer my time. And, you know, also as a young person that grew up with technology, trying to figure out how do we use technology to do that, to do exactly that. So at the time--and this is 2009--Facebook had only been around for a few years, and it was barely kind of getting momentum. So we started using Facebook as an organizing tool. We were probably one of the first groups that started using Facebook. You know, later we also used Instagram as an organizing platform to do that. And then also we knew that a lot of community members that we were targeting, like the folks that needed to get this information, were not gonna be able to jump on a Facebook page because at the time they probably didn&#039 ; t have the technology or didn&#039 ; t know how to use it. So we knew that we needed to do something with direct text message. We didn&#039 ; t have resources. This is all volunteer work. We didn&#039 ; t have grants. We didn&#039 ; t have the ability to get donations really. Like, I mean, we were getting donations, but we&#039 ; re not a 501c3, right. There&#039 ; s no real exchange that could happen. So somebody literally just said, &quot ; I have an old Blackberry that you can have if you want it&quot ; . And then somebody was kind enough to say, &quot ; And I can add a new line to my family plan&quot ; . And then the rest of us just had to say, well, we will pitch in to pay the monthly payment. So we all started literally with an really old Blackberry, um, &lt ; laugh&gt ; that we will type the text message and send out and start kind of creating a list. Once we hit the 500 numbers, like, you know, 500 unique phone numbers that we were now texting every weekend, sometimes multiple times in the weekend, it became really hard because a Blackberry is not designed &lt ; laugh&gt ; to send more than 500 text message at the same time. It will take us three hours. Literally, one of us will be in the phone for three hours sending text message. And then we decided, okay, that&#039 ; s three hours is ridiculous. We can&#039 ; t be volunteering more than that. So we kind of stop adding new numbers, but the demand, right. Amount of people that every time we send a text message, they will text back, &quot ; Hey, can you add my cousin? Hey, can you add my neighbor?&quot ; Or we will be out -- because we were putting this out of pocket and I was a student, a first-generation college student that was signing up for, or getting student loans just to pay rent. I couldn&#039 ; t afford really an extra bill. And, you know, that was a reality for most of the folks that were doing this. Not all of us were college students, but, you know, we&#039 ; re all struggling. We started asking our Facebook friends on our page, &quot ; Hey, would you all be willing to pitch in to pay the bill?&quot ; Right. And yes, that response from the community immediately was yes. &quot ; Where can I meet you to get you five bucks, ten bucks, twenty?&quot ; So then we started attending community events to collect a donation, but of course, as we are at the community events, people are like, &quot ; Oh, you&#039 ; re with Alianza Comunitaria. Can I be added to your list?&quot ; And we had to say, no, we couldn&#039 ; t. So we figured out that we needed an online system, and we did everything car washes, literally hanging out at the swap meet, just collecting donations, asking folks who were receiving our text message, who will send them a text, right. Like, &quot ; Hey, can you help us? Anything will help.&quot ; And we were able to in 2013 transition to an online system that we have continued to have now for a few years. It continued to be all community funded. Now, as you know, some of us found more stability. We were paid out of pocket to continue this system. And we were able to bring in more and more numbers. So our numbers continue to grow. Every time I look at our list, it&#039 ; s bigger. The last time I looked, it was a little over 8,000, but I don&#039 ; t really know our exact number because people just sign up automatically on it. And our Facebook and Instagram, like I said, we get followers every weekend. Every time there is an alert that needs to go out, we get them and here and there, we will hear from community members who tell us, &quot ; I&#039 ; ve been following for 10 years&quot ; . And the amount of trust they have on this network is to the point where we still, we get a lot of messages primarily through our social media, where folks now are sharing with us a lot of very personal information with the hope that we are gonna be able to connect them with resources. Right. So many times, I am the one connecting folks with organizations who are able to provide legal services and/or directing them in the right way to where they can find information about medical or health services. There&#039 ; s a lot of questions around schools for their kids. So it becomes--even though we try not to promote it, &#039 ; cause it&#039 ; s still volunteer run, so it&#039 ; s capacity. It&#039 ; s an issue. We are part of the North County community, specifically the immigrant community. So they look at us for all sorts of information. So right now, during COVID we had folks who were looking at us for resources. What can we do to help feed our families or to access the vaccine? Like a lot of folks are, um, we had questions around, Will this affect my immigration status? Or I&#039 ; m undocumented. Can I access these resources? So we continue to do that work. And of course, our notification system continues to be up and running and just growing, even though we are trying not to grow it as much. Sheehan: That&#039 ; s really, really incredible. You said you&#039 ; ve seen these DUI checkpoints where really Border Patrol is kind of hanging out there trying to catch undocumented persons. Have you experienced any other issues that immigrants face in, you know, the border region? Serrano: Yeah. I mean and, you know, just to clarify, that was many years back. Like close to 10 years back. And the reason I make that clarification is because things have changed. Policies and laws really for the state of California has changed that make that illegal to an extent &lt ; laugh&gt ; . So, I just wanna clarify that because I don&#039 ; t want the departments coming after me, like, you&#039 ; re saying we&#039 ; re violating the law. That&#039 ; s not true. Yes. But you did at one point. &lt ; laugh&gt ; Yes. I mean, there is a lot of challenges. Like I said, at this point I&#039 ; ve been working with the immigrant community in North County for over 10 years. And there are challenges at all levels, from parents trying to navigate the schools. To folks not being able to access healthcare. We know that, unfortunately, undocumented folks, even if they qualify because of income and you know, the other requirements for medical, they&#039 ; re not able to access it just because of their immigration status. So I had to, even with my own family, have to navigate the system, or try to navigate the system because there&#039 ; s really no navigation when you&#039 ; re being denied services, because you don&#039 ; t have health insurance. And you&#039 ; re not able to access health insurance because you cannot afford private. And the ones that are subsidized by the government, you don&#039 ; t qualify because of your immigration status. So for me personally, that has been an important fight to ensure that our safety net is open, right. For the state of California our safety net is open for all of us, regardless of immigration status. We have been able to have some win. So as my work out in the community through Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular, I became an advocate for immigrant rights. So right now, we are in April 6th, 2022. And we&#039 ; re very excited because starting May 1st, so in a few couple of weeks, undocumented immigrants 50 years and older will be able to access full scope Medi-Cal if they qualify based on income regardless of their immigration status. So that is a huge win that took us many years. Literally, I had trips to these, sorry, to Sacramento. I have taken the 12-hour bus--and I know how long it takes--12-hour bus to Sacramento with undocumented folks. With folks who are cancer survivors. With folks who are dealing with diabetes and all kinds of chronic disease from North County. Here from our local community who have been living here 20, 30 years. Who have U.S. citizen kids, right. Who are doing everything on their end to be good members of our community. Who are blocked from receiving health services because of their immigration status. So I had the privilege of getting to know them, learning their story, helping them prepare and really become advocates for their own, uh, for themselves and their families. And now, you know, a few years later we are seeing some results from that advocacy. As we are changing the laws and really changing the way undocumented immigrants are perceived in our community. Of course, that has been statewide efforts, right. Like we are part of some statewide coalitions that have been able to bring us those results. But I can tell you that North County, San Diego has been part of all those conversations throughout the years in part, because of the work that me and other folks have been doing. Sheehan: And so what are some of the methods that you use to advocate? I know you, before you had mentioned when you were in high school and college, you had organized and been a part of protests. Is that the major way that you help advocate or -- Serrano: No, that&#039 ; s probably the most visible one for the outside world. And definitely we continue to use public protests as a way of getting attention to the issues. But there&#039 ; s many other ways. We ensure that my role has become being the teacher, right. Like the person that is helping community members learn how to tell their stories, because even though we know the experiences exist in the community, right. Like, I witness them sometimes, you know, like folks call me, like, I can&#039 ; t, I need a test or even in my own family, right. My mother-in-law was in a situation a long time ago where she wasn&#039 ; t feeling right, and she needed to get tested. And we couldn&#039 ; t get an appointment. I, myself, I couldn&#039 ; t sign her up anywhere because she didn&#039 ; t have health insurance because she was undocumented. So I&#039 ; m seeing this, I&#039 ; m living through it, but I know that it&#039 ; s hard for our community members to tell that story in a way that other folks are able to understand it and follow along. So I literally had taken the time to first teach folks how the laws are changed, right. Then we also take the time to see which laws need to be changed. Partner with those who have a lot more experience than myself in policy making and, you know, try to come together to create bills that we think might be able to solve the problem. And then have community members learn how to do the advocacy in the legislative process. Which means teaching them how to tell their own personal stories, accompany them to provide that testimony. What there is in a private meeting with legislators at their offices or public hearings. Like anything from public meetings, sorry, public hearings in Sacramento with our state legislators to city councils, right. A lot of times there is things city councils can be doing to improve the lives of folks, but most of us don&#039 ; t know about it or don&#039 ; t know how to communicate with them. I also have helped folks set up meetings or help folks set up meetings. And, at times, especially when some of these meetings are public, media has an interest. So lately that has been one of the skills I&#039 ; ve been developing on how do we better work with media to ensure that the stories of our community members are out there and folks who might not be in our communities are aware of. Because deep in my heart, I know that people, there&#039 ; s a lot of people that cares who just don&#039 ; t know, they just don&#039 ; t know what&#039 ; s happening. So part of the advocacy is really to ensure that everybody knows what&#039 ; s happening and how things can be fixed in a way that it will not take away from U.S. citizens. Because that&#039 ; s not the point. The point is not to take anything away from a U.S. citizen. The point is to ensure that all of us who contribute to our community get access to the same resources. And that is the part of the work that I have been doing in terms of advocacy. And sometimes we don&#039 ; t achieve that in a public protest, but sometimes you do, &lt ; laugh&gt ; right. So use the different tools in our toolkit for advocates. Sheehan: And so that, is it a bill or a law that&#039 ; s going into effect in May? That&#039 ; s a big win for the immigrant rights group. Is there any other progress that kind of stands out to you in the past 20 years? Serrano: Definitely. For me, the one that I was also very passionate and really sparked my interest in learning how advocacy works at the state level is the passage of SB 54 or the California Values Act back in 2000 and 2017. &lt ; laugh&gt ; Yes, it went into effect in January of 2018. So the SB 54, the California Values Act is also known at the national level as the California Sanctuary Law, which really prohibits law enforcement from collaborating with immigration enforcement. That&#039 ; s the law that I was hinting earlier &lt ; laugh&gt ; about me making sure that I clarify that those incidents happened before 2018. Because in the state of California--and we were the first state in the nation--and actually now a few years later, some states have been following our lead in ensuring that law enforcement, your local police department are not in the business of deporting community members. When we first started talking about--going back to my experience here in North County, right. I was involved in the community. I knew about this DUI checkpoints. They were becoming a ridiculous thing where we documented checkpoints on a Tuesday at 10:00 AM in front of a high school in Escondido. What drunk driver is driving at 10:00 AM in front of a high school on a Tuesday? And I mean, I know there might be folks driving under the influence at the time, but they&#039 ; re definitely folks who need help. Because we were seeing the DUI checkpoints and not outside of bars, right. They&#039 ; re not there--once again, it was obvious to us that they were not targeting drunk drivers. They were targeting undocumented immigrants. And they were targeting because they were able to impound the car because at the time undocumented immigrants couldn&#039 ; t get a license. And once again, we were seeing immigration enforcement presence. So we were able to first tackle the license. So the state of California became the first, uh, one of the first states to give undocumented driver&#039 ; s licenses. But for us here in North County, we knew that the problem was really the collaboration, the close collaboration between immigration enforcement and law enforcement. A lot of folks don&#039 ; t know this, but the Escondido Police Department was one of the first ones to launch a pilot where ICE agents, or immigration enforcement agents, were literally riding along with the police department. They had an office within our department headquarters. They were one in the same, basically. That later translated in laws in the states of Arizona and other places. So we knew that North County had something to do with the birth of that collaboration. So we needed to be part of the disentanglement of that collaboration. We worked with legislators for many years, and finally in 2018 in the state of California, now it&#039 ; s illegal for police departments to fully collaborate with immigration enforcement. Unfortunately, there&#039 ; s still some exceptions to the law, so there continues to be collaboration. We continue to fight every single one of the forms of collaboration. But for the most part, the state of California is able to say that our law enforcement doesn&#039 ; t collaborate with immigration enforcement. And that has been part of the result of the advocacy that happened statewide. But I can say that Escondido specifically was constantly brought up in those conversations because we were one of the first departments to start that collaboration. So then we were definitely one of the first to stop after the state law was passed. Sheehan: And so do other border states like Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, do they have similar laws to what California is or do they even consider having those laws? Serrano: I think in the state of Arizona and Texas actually had been having the opposite fight. The state of Arizona was one of the first, I think it was the first to launch it statewide, to not just allow the collaboration, but it was almost like demand law enforcement to collaborate with immigration enforcement and demand law enforcement to become one in the same with immigration. So, yes, Arizona, sorry, California is right now the only one that has that state law, at least for the bordering states. I think the other one that will be kind of like a good example of the work on the opposite will be New York. And definitely some of the smaller states are. Their laws are not as strong as ours, but they are definitely on the way there to hopefully disentangle that. Sheehan: So that kind of brings me to the end of my questions here. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything you&#039 ; d like to share? Serrano: Um, let me think. &lt ; laugh&gt ; I know I talked to you about many, many different things, but I think for me, something that resonates a lot the work that we&#039 ; ve been doing is recently the whole San Diego County went through the redistricting process. For those who don&#039 ; t know, redistricting happens every 10 years after a census count. Now, when I arrived to this region, it was right before the last census in 2010. I arrived to North County in 2008. And I knew that there was a lot of Latinos, a lot of Spanish speakers, right. I felt right at home. But the 2010 census was severely undercounted Latinos. Now in 2020 census, I was able join the efforts to ensure that folks were counted. And even though we continue to see a severe undercount for our communities, now as we have the count and we get to redistrict our community, we get to say that the North County district, which right now will be District 5 for the County Board of Supervisors, is at least 45% Latino. So that to me just goes to show the amount of growth that our Latino community, immigrant communities, have had in North County. And, it was recent, but we are starting to see a trend on the change of policy makers. So we are seeing a lot of Latinos, a lot of immigrants and/or the children of immigrants being elected to school boards, being elected to city councils. You know, crossing fingers. So we will see them at the Board of Supervisors, and we will see them at the state and federal level representing North County. And I think for me, as somebody that has done a lot of work in this region in the last 10 years, it just goes to show the power our community has when we organize ourselves and we imagine what can be done. It wasn&#039 ; t there before. Because I remember 2008 when I arrived, this was a very conservative community, and it continues to be conservative, but it was, uh, I remember it was at Cal State San Marcos, the first time a peer, somebody my age called me beaner and told me to go back to Mexico. So that is the reality for a lot of families in North County. The racism that was just open and accepted, right. The practice by our policy makers and even by our neighbors of denigrating you because you&#039 ; re Mexican. Telling you to speak English because this is the United States or telling us to go back to Mexico. Even for folks who are not even originally from Mexico, right. Our Central American community members were being told to go back to Mexico. Fast forward to 10 years now, even though I recognize that we continue to be a very conservative community, North County is changing. And it&#039 ; s changing because the number of Latinos is increasing, and we are now creating a Latino leadership in a region. And I don&#039 ; t know if our administrators at Cal State San Marcos know, but in part is because of the presence of Cal State San Marcos. Because nowadays as an alum, as a Latina, as a Spanish speaker, I run into so many folks who have attended San Marcos, who are from this community and who are creating change. And we expect that that will continue to create an impact in our region. Sheehan: And so in the 2010 census, there were more immigrants here than the census showed. And then in 2020, that number had grown. What do you think keeps people from wanting to participate in that census? Is it a fear of deportation? Serrano: Yeah, definitely. When you&#039 ; re undocumented you want nothing to do with the government. Government is your enemy. And in part that has been because of our doing, as the United States. We have used every-- you know, it&#039 ; s almost like when we talk about immigration, it comes in waves, right. And every time that there is this like conservative tough on immigrant approach, we create fear, and we create cases in which folks get deported from our communities. Obama, the Obama administration has the record on deportations in all of the country. So when a Democrat president is deporting your family, and now you have another new administration, even if it&#039 ; s Democrat, Republican. As an immigrant, you fear them. They&#039 ; re your enemy. Regardless of who they are like, they&#039 ; re your enemy because they are the ones responsible for separating your family and/or separating a family that you know. So when you are undocumented, the government is your enemy and any interaction you avoid. And that&#039 ; s what we saw with the census, right. Even though the census should have absolutely nothing to do with immigration enforcement, folks are afraid of it because they don&#039 ; t know how it could be used against them. Also, unfortunately in 2020, the president that we had at the time, President Trump decided to make it a political move and decided and pushed really hard to include immigration questions on the census, which include a citizenship question. He really fought really hard to include those questions. Even though a court decided not to side with him, and they ended up siding with creating a census that will be more inviting for folks to participate versus creating questions that will prevent folks from feeling as safe participating. And those questions didn&#039 ; t make it to the questionnaire. The president coming on TV already saying that he wanted to use that as part of his immigration enforcement, nobody could take that away from us. So it was fresh on people&#039 ; s memories and I myself, right. Like me and my team, we were out there doing outreach for the census, and we will always get questions. &quot ; And how is Trump gonna use this against me?&quot ; , right. &quot ; How is this gonna be part of the deportation process?&quot ; And I can tell them a hundred times that that was not the case, but once again, they had already seen the president be on TV saying that it would be used against them. So those were some of the challenges that we saw with the census. Sheehan: And so that 45% Latino/Latina is probably on the very low side. Serrano: Yes. Sheehan: So that&#039 ; s an incredible growth in North County. Serrano: Yes. Yes, cities like Escondido are now majority Latino with 52%. Cities like Vista and San Marcos are also very close to the 50% mark. Once again, if we were to account for the under count, it&#039 ; s probably safe to say that they&#039 ; re about half Latino population cities. Sheehan: &lt ; laugh&gt ; . That is an incredible rate. Serrano: Yeah, it is. Sheehan: All right. And did you have anything else that you would like to share? Serrano: No, I think that&#039 ; s all for me. Sheehan: All right. Well, thank you very much for your time today. Serrano: Yeah, no. Thank you for having me. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SerranoLilian_SheehanRobert_2022-04-06.xml SerranoLilian_SheehanRobert_2022-04-06.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Serrano, Lilian. Interview April 6, 2022 Description An account of the resource Lilian Serrano is a California State San Marcos alum. She graduated with a degree in Human Development. Lilian worked with the National Latino Research Center (NLRC) at Cal State San Marcos before moving on to work with Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular. In this interview, Lilian discusses family life and growing up in Tijuana and Oxnard, her experiences as a student activist at CSUSM, and her work as an advocate for immigrant rights in North County. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-16 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos Community organization Undocumented immigrants -- California -- San Diego County Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oxnard (Calif.) San Diego County (Calif.) Tijuana (Baja California, Mexico) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Lilian Serrano Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lilian Serrano Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Activists and activism Community history History Department internship Immigrant experience Latine experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2eee91e0e2d04044ac88b9eed26e8b6e.pdf 16109e90e2d9db6e598a6fded4b5ae71 PDF Text Text LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Robert Sheehan: So today is April the sixth, 2022. It's a Wednesday at 1:03 PM. I am Robert Sheehan, a graduate student at California State University, San Marcos. And today I am interviewing Lilian Serrano for the university library, special collections, oral history project. Lilian, thank you for being here with me today. Lilian Serrano: Uh, yes. Thank you, Robert <laugh> Sheehan: I'd like to first start kind of by asking you about your childhood: when and where were you born? Serrano: I was actually born in Chula Vista here in San Diego County, very close to the border, but I was raised in Tijuana. So actually my parents didn't live in Chula Vista at the time when I was born. My parents, just like many other border residents, took advantage of the geographic location where they were living at, and seek the best healthcare they could afford. And for my parents who were Tijuana residents, that meant Chula Vista. So I was born in Chula Vista. Sheehan: Okay. So you were born as an American citizen? Serrano: Yes. Sheehan: And your parents were still in Mexico? Serrano: Yes. Like I said my family is a transnational family that has made Tijuana/San Diego our home for many generations now. So, my parents were residents of Tijuana. They're Mexican citizens. And there is actually, um, contrary to public belief, there's actually nothing illegal about folks coming in and -Robert, give me one second. Sheehan: Sure. [Interview interrupted] Sheehan: Hi, we are resuming the interview at 1:05. Lilian, you were talking about your parents in Tijuana and how they, uh, it was a common thing for people to move between the border. Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 1 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Serrano: Yeah, it continues to be actually a common thing for residents of the border region. My family has been going back and forth from the border to the U.S. and Mexico side for at least five generations now. But my family, it is all originally from Mexico. So, my parents as Mexican citizens and as Tijuana residents -actually, both my parents were born and raised in Tijuana. Their whole lives, they cross back and forth between San Diego to Tijuana. They had at the time when I was born, they had their tourist visas. And like I was mentioning, contrary to popular belief, there's nothing illegal about folks being able, uh, receiving medical service in the U.S. as long as they're paying for them. And that's what my parents did at the time. They were able to, you know, afford to pay for every doctor visit, every medicine, everything that involves giving birth. So they did. And I was born in Chula Vista. And so did the rest of my sisters. So, there's three of us. All of us were born in Chula Vista and then actually a lot of my cousins and even just family friends that I grew up with. All of us, a lot of us, were born in, this U.S. side of the border, but we lived Tijuana to Mexican parents. Sheehan: That's very, very interesting. So do you still live on the American side of the border? Serrano: Yes, so actually it wasn't until I was probably about two weeks right before my 14th birthday that my family decided--and I mean they had been talking about it for a while--but they decided that it was time we made the hard decision of leaving, our hometown, my parent’s hometown, right, Tijuana, to the United States. And we moved to Oxnard, California in Ventura County. A small [unclear] cultural town where my great grandma had moved, like I said, many years before I was even born. And my grandparents were living there at the time. So my parents made the decision to move us to the United States. And I've been residing in the United States since I was two weeks before my 14th birthday until present. Sheehan: So do you still have family then south of the border in Tijuana? Serrano: Yeah, the house where I grew up, we still have it there. So I go visit. I still have a lot of family friends, family members, you know, aunts and uncles, cousins. Some of my cousins who are U.S. citizens that continue to live in Tijuana, I don't think really, they have ever in their entire lives, and they're like in their thirties now, ever lived actually live in the United States. They come visit, but they don't live here, their U.S. citizens that live in Tijuana. Sheehan: Wow. So what did your parents do for living, Serrano: When now, or <laugh>? Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 2 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Sheehan: Well, both when back then and now what do they do? Serrano: So, at the, uh, when, you know, back when I was born my parents had their own business. So, you know, that goes back to the ability to have a visa and actually be able to afford medical services. Also, I mean, giving birth back then, according to what my parents share with me, wasn't as expensive as it is now, right. Affording a medical services wasn't as expense. So my parents were definitely what some folks will consider maybe lower middle class, ‘cause they had their own small business. A family run business. And so that's what they did for a living. As things start getting more complicated and you know, big corporations start coming in and it was just harder for them to keep up with their small business. That is actually a big part. That and the reality that hit them, that they had three girls aging, almost approaching college time and looking at college tuitions, not being as affordable. That the reality of them having to move the family to the United States to seek better opportunities. That's when they made that tough decision. So, they shut down their business and they moved to, like I said, to Oxnard, California. And Oxnard is a primarily agricultural town. So when they first arrived, my parents went from being business owners to them being farm workers. So my dad actually worked out in the tomato fields. It wasn't for a long time, but he nonetheless, the continue of the years, he continued to do work that indirectly was related to the agricultural field. From packing plants to transportation centers, and warehouse and everything that is involved within the production of fresh produce. And so did my mom. Actually, my mom until not a long time ago worked at packing vegetables. Just different variety of vegetables--tomatoes, avocados, broccoli. I think the list goes on. But my parents were for all my high school and most of my college years, they were considered farm workers. Nowadays as they are a little older--and they just recently moved to San Diego County--my dad is not working right now because of his health condition. And my mom, is uh, she's working at a manufacturing job. Labor work. Sheehan: And what was their small business in Mexico? What did they do? Serrano: Yeah, they had a little store, a little market. It's called abarrotes in Mexico. So, they sell a little bit of everything. You know, fresh produce, meats. Just like any corner convenient little market store that you can think of. That that's what my parents did. That business was actually originally opened by my greatgrandparents when they first arrived to Tijuana and it was passed down generations until it was my parents who, once again, had to make the tough decision of shutting it down. Sheehan: So that really must have been a difficult decision to make, to leave all that behind. Serrano: It definitely was. I know that they invested many years of their lives. I mean, my mom grew up in that business. By the time my mom was born that my great grandparents already had the business. So, you know, my mom grew up there. I spent most the first, at least half of my life right there. Anything from having to help clean up the business to sometimes as I was getting older, having to take care of the Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 3 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 registry and, you know, like just handling cash, fixing, restocking, everything, right? Like we, we have that in common with my mom where we both, we all grew up in that store. But yeah, it was a tough decision, but I think, you know, like most parents, they did what they had to do. Sheehan: So growing up, you went to school all the way up until the beginning of high school in Mexico. Serrano: Yeah, actually, I did up to one year of middle school. And because of when like the U.S. and Mexico, we don't have a synched schedule when we cut the birthdays to like a new grade. I ended up following this like gap in between, so I skipped eighth grade. <laugh> I didn't have eighth grade either in Mexico or here. So I did everything from preschool to seventh grade in Mexico. And then I moved to Oxnard to start ninth grade, or high school. So that's where I started my high school. And I did all my high school in Oxnard. Graduated from Oxnard High School. Sheehan: And how was that transition from a Mexican middle school to an American high school? Serrano: It was interesting. <laugh> It was very, um, I mean, once again, I had the privilege I think that a lot of folks don't have of my parents were, um, used to be able to afford for me to go to private schools. Now they were not the biggest, most popular or, you know, expensive private schools, but nonetheless, they were private schools. So I was able to get some extra help in my classes. I was used to my class sizes being about 15 to 20 students and that 20 students was a big class for us. Most of, for the most part, I had small classes in size. And I used to, you know, have just your regular, I guess, subjects. Right. History, um, I didn't have English. I had Spanish. English was taught as the foreign language. So when I transitioned to the United States, I transitioned from small classroom size, um, class to now being put in a public school in a community that lacks a lot of resources. So I was thrown into high school with now being the culture clash of my class now double in size. I didn't have as much support from teachers plus the language. Right. Like I struggled with my English. I didn't really, I don't think I really spoke English before I started high school. So now I had to learn the language. So I was placed in ELD or ESL classes. I was placed also in what was offered at the time for bilingual classes, which was really lower like level math and the lowest level of science and basically all of the subjects. And even at the time, right. I remember very clearly having the conversation with my math teacher. They did an assessment; my math skills were actually really advanced for ninth graders. Because once again, I had had the support and I develop my math skills. But because of language, I was not able to be placed on the correct level of class because that level of class was not offered for ESL students. So I had to be placed in pre-algebra even though I had skills to be placed, I think in like geometry, which was at least one year, if not, two advanced. But I just didn't understand the language <laugh>. So that was a challenge for sure. I was also, once again, because I understood very clearly to me that the sacrifice my family was making was just to give me and my sisters opportunity to attend college. And me and my older sister had also that pressure, right. Now we have to make sure that our family sacrifice was worth it. So we had always, you know, since my first day of high school I had in mind that I was there to learn and to meet all the requirements to go to a four-year university. So as an ESL student that really meant having to reclassify, right? Like having to go through the whole process, finish and Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 4 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 learn and acquire enough English skills to be able to be placed in college prep classes to then be able to meet the A through G requirements. All of that in the lapse of four years. And actually, I was able to achieve that. I ended up, um, I always kind of joke, but not really with my friends that I had to do the A through G requirements, which is supposed to take you four years. I completed those in two years. ‘Cause I took the first two years of my high school to really just learn the language. And then, like I said, gain enough proficiency to be able to be placed in college prep classes. And then it took me two years, which meant took classes before school, after school, attended community college classes during the summer. And any opportunity that I could to, like, I took to be able to gain those, uh, or be able to meet the A through G requirements that allowed me then my senior year apply to a four-year university. And not just apply, but actually be accepted. So I gained acceptance to a few universities actually. I think, I don't remember receiving any letter denying my acceptance. Then it became a matter of where I was gonna go. And I chose Cal State San Marcos. Sheehan: So that was quite the journey then to come from Mexico and, like you said, to only have basically two years of that kind of more advanced high school because the school didn't have a bilingual program. So they placed you at a lower level. Do you think the-Serrano: I mean, we did have a bilingual program, but the bilingual program was, we didn't have all the levels of math, all the levels of science proficiency in bilingual, right. Like, they just had like the beginner. So for those of us who had had the opportunity to actually have, uh, acquire some, you know, skills in our home countries or the countries we were coming from, and we were placed in the beginner just because they, it was not that many of us for them to create a full class. Plus, I'm pretty sure the school didn't have the resources to do that. Sheehan: Thank you for clarifying that. Yeah, that was gonna be my next question is, do you think that's endemic in American schools? They don't have the resources to teach children of immigrants. Serrano: Definitely. I mean, even though I'm not technically an immigrant, right. Because of my experience of coming from a different educational system and really living in, in outside of the United States and then coming in and learning the language, I did experience a little bit of what some folks experience when they transitioned into United States at a young age. So all of my classmates in high school and all my friends--really because our classmates become our friends at that age, especially as you're new in a new city--all of my classmates and friends for the most part were immigrants. Folks who were born outside of the United States. And we were all coming from very different backgrounds. Given the type of industry that prevails in Oxnard, a lot of them were coming from small village in Mexico and/or Central America in which their families were farmers. So when they came to United States, that's what they were gonna do. They were gonna be farm workers. So definitely, a lot of my classmates had never attended a formal school ever in their lives. Some of them were struggling to learn Spanish actually because their first language was an indigenous language. And some of them, you know, were still struggling with the education. So for them, definitely, they needed that kind of low math and low science classes because they didn't have the basic skills to be able to learn more advanced math. But for some of us--and it was, we were the minority, I guess, in that Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 5 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 group that had had those opportunities outside of the United States--we were still placed in the same level of math and science, just because our English was just not at the same level as a regular high school student. So there is a lot of diversity, I will say among immigrant youth. And a lot of times we don't get to see that because we are focused only on those who have the biggest needs, I guess. Sheehan: So in your opinion, what would be the way that schools could go about helping that education process? Is there a way that someone who has more advanced skills like yourself in math would be able to apply those skills successfully in a high school setting? Serrano: Well, I think for that, it would require for us to really invest in our English learner programs. We know that, unfortunately, our English learner programs tend to be underfunded. Right. They just don't have the resources to really address the need. The need is big. We still have a lot of kids who are U.S. citizens who were born and attend, you know, all the K through 12 in the United States, but that never really reclassify, never really gained that proficiency in English in part, because they don't, um, you know, when they get home, they primarily speak Spanish. And they attend schools who don't have the resources to provide that more one on one that like individual support that a lot of students require. So I really think to address that question, like really the problem is that our schools are underserved. We don't have enough resources. We don't have enough teachers. We don't pay our teachers enough. Like we don't have enough specialized teachers. I still remember, and that was not my experience. But in my last year of high school, the amount of ESL students that we had in my high school was so big that we didn't have enough ESL teachers. So we ended up opening one class with a teacher who had, I think studied two years of Spanish <laugh> or something like that. So this is somebody that is not proficient in Spanish but ended up having to take an ESL class just because we didn't have enough teachers. And I can imagine, right. That was probably also a tough call for our administrators. But unfortunately, when we don't have, we don't invest in bilingual teachers, when we don't invest in our bilingual programs, that is the result, right. We have students who are not being challenged in the classroom, like I felt I wasn't. But also, students who actually need a lot of support just to catch up with their classmates and are not receiving that, and therefore are staying behind. So we are really underserving our students by doing that, right. Our classroom should be an environment where you should be able to learn basic skills, but also to be pushed and challenged. And we are, at least in my experience in high school, at an ESL program, that was not the case. Sheehan: And do you remember the percentage of kids who graduated from your graduating class? Serrano: <laugh> No. I don't remember. That was a long time ago. Sheehan: Okay. Yeah. <laugh> So moving on then from high school going into college, you said you went to Cal State San Marcos, is that correct? Serrano: Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 6 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Yes. Yes, I decided that when I was looking at all the options, I guess I had, um, really, I didn't have that many options. I was happy and, you know, excited when I got all those accepting letters as a senior, especially, you know, I had you share, I had a tough journey. The reality was that my parents were still farm workers. The reality was my family was still struggling and I was going to get a lot of emotional support, but not financial support. So I was looking for a college that will help me financially. That will feel right for me. I was also looking for that, like home feel to it. And I also knew that I performed better in smaller classrooms. So for me, Cal State San Marcos definitely met all those things I was looking for. Also, I had, initially my sister originally, my older sister started at Cal State San Marcos. So when I chose that school, I also had the hope that we were both gonna be attending together. That ended up not happening. She ended up, unfortunately like many students, dropping out before I was able to join her. But the campus is still within the border region. It's still only a few minutes away from Tijuana and Chula Vista where I actually have a lot of family members. But at the same time, it was not close enough for me to feel like I was gonna go with my family. I still felt, you know, as a teenager, I was also looking to get away from family. So Cal State San Marcos provided that perfect in between. At least for me. And then also once again, being a smaller campus, a campus that had small class sizes. Also, we have a college assistant migrant program who once again, as a daughter of farm workers, provided a lot of support, especially my first year. So all of those were like incentives for me to pick Cal State San Marcos and decide to move back in 2008. Sheehan: Very interesting. So what did you do for financial support then? Was it just kind of grants and student loans and things like that? Serrano: Yep. <laugh> So it was grants. It was, um, like I mentioned through camp, I was able to access some scholarships. And then I was able to, or ended up having to, sign up for student loans. Yeah. Sheehan: Mm-hmm, <affirmative> very much the American experience right now. <laugh> So you’re one of three sisters. You had said your older sister had dropped out of college. Did your younger sister attend Cal State San Marcos or any other college? Serrano: So actually, yes, my older sister that dropping from Cal State San Marcos, just to later on, actually, she was part of the first class of Mira Costa students who graduated with a bachelor’s. She has a Bachelor’s of Science from Mira Costa College. And that was recent. And my younger sister, she is currently a student at UC Irvine. Sheehan: Wow. So you were the middle daughter and ended up with the first degree. Was that the first degree in your family? Serrano: Yes. Yes, that was the first degree in my family. And yes, I know. I ended up being the middle child as an example, I guess. <laugh>. Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 7 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Sheehan: And what was your degree in? Serrano: Mine? Sheehan: Yes. Serrano: I ended up doing my bachelor's in human development with my emphasis in health services. Sheehan: And then that led into your current position, or how did you end up where you are now? Serrano: I ended up doing a double major, sorry. I should have--I did a double major in Human Development and Spanish. So I wanted to make sure that I didn't lose my proficiency in the language, but also, I had always really liked literature and, you know, Spanish is my first language, so I felt a lot more comfortable in that language. So I ended up studying both. When I first started at Cal State San Marcos, I knew I had to find my home. ’Cause my family was far, far away. Especially because when my parents decided to move the family and overstay their visas, they became undocumented. Right. So even though if they had, you know like their whole lives, they had been moving back and forward and, like I shared, my great grandparents, my grandparents, they were all now, actually at the time I think they were already U.S. citizens. By the time we moved. If not, they were very close to becoming U.S. citizens. My parents only had visas. So when they moved and overstayed, they became undocumented. So something that wasn't thinking of when I picked the college is that because we are in the border now, there was an imaginary line dividing me and my parents. The way that our immigration system defines the border is a hundred miles from the port of entry. So for those of us who live in San Diego County, especially those of us who live in North County, we're very familiar with the Border Patrol checkpoints set on the 15 freeway and on the 5, which, you know, are around the areas of Temecula and San Clemente. So my parents, when I first started college, my freshman year, they were still undocumented. So they couldn't risk, and I myself couldn't ask them to risk, their ability to be with my younger sister who at the time was I think, a first grader, by crossing that checkpoint. Because every time an undocumented immigrant drives through that checkpoint, there's a possibility of being arrested and deported. So I, I was not--I knew about the checkpoint, but I didn't understand all the complications that come with it until I had already submitted everything for Cal State San Marcos. I had my orientation day and then I had to have that tough conversation that my parents couldn't drop me off for orientation. They did end up dropping me off for my first day at the dorms. But after that, I was basically on my own. If I wanted to see my parents, I would have to either drive or take the train and me being me, the U.S. citizen crossing that checkpoint versus my parents who were undocumented. So, I forgot what I was saying. <laugh> Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 8 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Sheehan: <laugh> That's all right. Serrano: [unclear]. Sheehan: I have a, well, that leads me to my next question, actually. Coming from a multi-status family, did that impact your choice of career? Serrano: It did. It did. I think, indirectly, but it did. I went to high school once again, it kind of all goes back to high school years, right. ‘Cause for most of us, those are our formative years, right. The years where, even though we're making decisions unconsciously, that ends up impacting what we do. So when I was in high school, this was in 2006. I remember very vividly that Congress was having a conversation around undocumented immigrants and around, and how some politicians at the time were really pushing to criminalize undocumented immigrants. Currently being undocumented in the United States is a civil offense. It's not a criminal offense, but at the time there were a lot of pushing, a lot of conversations around criminalizing that, really making it a felony to be undocumented and or helping undocumented folks. So as a teenager that was literally struggling to learn English struggling, like kind of in a way I feel identified with the immigrant experience. I knew my parents were undocumented. Most of my friends were immigrants and a lot of them were undocumented. I felt these folks were speaking directly to my community, right. Directly to my family. Directly about my friends. And I knew that it wasn't true. Everything that they were saying was not true. That was not reflective of my experience and what I was seeing every day. So, 2006, there was a mass movement around immigrant rights. A push for an immigration reform and really to change that dialogue about how we were talking about undocumented immigrants. And as a high school student, I just jumped on board. I joined the protests. I ended up walking out of my high school. Like a lot of folks did back in 2006, we saw high school walkouts all throughout the state of California. I joined that movement, not knowing anything. I didn't know what the real implications of the conversations were. I didn't know how Congress works. I didn't know how we make laws. I just knew that what I was hearing and what I was watching on TV, like through the news was not right. So fast forward to when I started as a student at Cal State San Marcos. I had already had my first encounter with MEChA, which stands for Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan. And as a high school student, a lot of high schools do have MEChA. My high school didn’t. But when we started, you know, getting involved in organizing walkouts and protests, it was college students at the nearest community college who were involved with MEChA, who came out to make sure that police was not harassing us. To come out, to tell us like, Okay, this is what you do to stay safe during a protest. They were not instituting the protest ‘cause we were the ones really wanting to do everything, right. But they were there to make sure we were doing it in a safe way. So when I kind of started at Cal State San Marcos, find out we had a MEChA chapter, I knew since like orientation, I'm joining this organization ‘cause they're doing what I wanna be doing. So, it is actually through that, that I met one of my mentors, Arcela Nuñez[-Alvarez] who at the time was the director of the National Latino Research Center and the advisor for MEChA, um, that I actually started getting more involved here locally in North County. So a Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 9 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 lot my years as a student at Cal State San Marcos, I really spent getting to know North County and the local immigrant rights movement through MEChA. And also, you know, we also got into some trouble at Cal State San Marcos as we were the biggest organization, student organization that represent Latino and Latinx students. And you know, at the time we were look[ing at a] tuition increase. We still--and until this day--Cal State San Marcos still doesn't have a Chicano Studies department. But back then we had even less Chicano professors. So there was a lot of things that I was seeing in my daily life that it just didn't feel right. Didn't feel that that was something, or an environment in which folks like myself could thrive. And my goal was always to try to, you know, create a world where I wanna live in and create a world where I want other generations--future generations--to live in. So I got involved and I was, you know, I struggled a little bit because I was taking classes and then I was doing all this community work and I never saw the bridge. Right. I never saw like the connection for me. So like, no, this is what I do because that's just what feels right to me. And I'm going to class because one day I'm gonna have a career, but I still didn't know what, <laugh> like most college students. So as my college year start--you know, I started approaching the end of my college career, I started seeing that overlap. Right. And I found that overlap initially, actually ended up getting hired as a student assistant. And then later on, I came right after graduation, came in as staff at the National Latino Research Center and in there--which is a department at Cal State San Marcos--I learned a lot about research. But also, I learned how research can be used to really bring attention to issues like that I was seeing. So that's kind of where I started seeing like, Okay, there's an overlap. I can actually do something with this education that I'm getting to improve and continue to also use the skills that I learned as an organizer versus an activist. As an organizer in the community. And I can merge both. And I can merge them in a way in which I create the opportunities that I wanna see. Right. And I kind of was able to after graduation and after like a few years of experience working at the NLRC and now, you know, as Universidad Popular, that's what I'm doing. I'm still continuing to create the spaces and the opportunities that I really wish I had when I was in that position in my life. Right. So for young folks, but also for like our, um, just our immigrant communities in general. Especially in North County, which, once I moved here, I fell in love with this region and also came to find out that this region is severely underserved. If I struggled in Oxnard--like this community is severely underserved. So, I decided that [I’d] dedicate my professional career to build resources here in North County. And it was all, you know, it was all as I was trying to merge my worlds into one. <laugh> Sheehan: <laugh>. And so what resources can people use in North County that you've helped develop? Serrano: Yeah. So, through Universidad Popular we have developed classes, community classes where folks can actually start learning about the history of Latinos in the United States. It's all coming from a Chicano Studies lens. And for me like that, I also, it was in a Chicano Studies classes where I felt like empowered and I was able to feel that I could merge, right, like my knowledge and my experience with my education. So we definitely find that that's the perfect platform for, uh, to start that. So, we also have classes that help folks learn the history and civics of the United States to then be able to become citizens. So a lot of folks don't know, but undocumented folks, sorry, immigrants. Immigrants who are applying to become U.S. citizens have to pass a history and civics test before they're able to do that. Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 10 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 So we help them study. We help them connect with attorneys or immigration attorneys that are able to, you know, assist them in the process of filling out their application. I myself sometimes serve as the interpreter. So I actually go with folks who are eligible to take their interviews in Spanish. I sit through there and I help them translate. And then, you know, we help them get through the finish line of becoming U.S. citizens. And after that, I help them register to vote. And then we also have some voter education classes and just activities in general, every time there's an election, in which we help first, new citizens register to vote, learning how to vote. Because voting is not as easy as it seems for those of us who are fluent in English and who are, um, grew up around our electoral system. And also, just learning about the candidates and, you know, the information or where to find information about the candidates. So you can make the right decisions for yourself and for your families. I also have helped develop an alert system specifically here in North County and that is part of what I've been doing now for many, many years on a volunteer basis. We developed an alert system that lets folks know when there is the presence of a checkpoint, a police--usually they're called DUI checkpoints--but the reality, we know that in the immigrant community, the perception is definitely that they are not there to catch folks who are driving under the influence, but really to catch folks who are driving without a license. Which is a lot of undocumented folks. And we haven't seen this in the last few years. But over 10 years ago, when this system started, we used to see a lot of collaboration with Border Patrol. So, I personally witnessed DUI checkpoints in which Border Patrol was standing right next to the officer or a block away. Right. So if you were somebody that was driving without a license and you look a certain way, you were Spanish speaker, you were for the most part presumed to be undocumented, and Border Patrol will be there to ask for your immigration status. And we also, unfortunately, documented some stories of folks that ended up being put in deportation procedures through this process. So we helped create an alert system in which when there's a DUI checkpoint in our community, when there's a Border Patrol checkpoint and, or an immigration raid, you know, in North County. And by North County, we really mean all the communities that touch the 78 and 76 corridors. So the cities of Oceanside and Vista, San Marcos, Escondido, and all of the unincorporated areas of Valley Center, Pauma Valley, Rincon, Pala, Fallbrook. Whenever there is one of those instances, we're able to send out a text message alert that goes to over 8,000 unique contacts. Plus, we're able to also to post information on our social media. All combined, we are able to reach anything between 50,000 to 100,000 community members, primarily Spanish speakers who live in North County. And a lot of them we know are immigrants. Sheehan: That's incredible. So there's this whole support system for immigrants in North County that you've created. Is that something that you've done in, what was the timeframe on that? Serrano: So when I first kind of joined a group, it was kind of baby. It was barely community members. A lot of them college students, a lot of them Cal State San Marcos students who were going to these checkpoints to start documenting what was happening. Right. And they will just, because they were already there, they will just start texting their family and friends who will then forward that text message to their families and friends. So it was like a tree. And this started back in 2009. I joined the group in 2010, so months after it was first created. And we knew that we needed to reach people faster and also in a more effective way. So, I was able to, as a student, just volunteer my time. And, you know, also as a young person that grew up with technology, trying to figure out how do we use technology to do that, to do exactly that. So at the time--and this is 2009--Facebook had only been Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 11 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 around for a few years, and it was barely kind of getting momentum. So we started using Facebook as an organizing tool. We were probably one of the first groups that started using Facebook. You know, later we also used Instagram as an organizing platform to do that. And then also we knew that a lot of community members that we were targeting, like the folks that needed to get this information, were not gonna be able to jump on a Facebook page because at the time they probably didn't have the technology or didn't know how to use it. So we knew that we needed to do something with direct text message. We didn't have resources. This is all volunteer work. We didn't have grants. We didn't have the ability to get donations really. Like, I mean, we were getting donations, but we're not a 501c3, right. There's no real exchange that could happen. So somebody literally just said, “I have an old Blackberry that you can have if you want it”. And then somebody was kind enough to say, “And I can add a new line to my family plan”. And then the rest of us just had to say, well, we will pitch in to pay the monthly payment. So we all started literally with an really old Blackberry, um, <laugh> that we will type the text message and send out and start kind of creating a list. Once we hit the 500 numbers, like, you know, 500 unique phone numbers that we were now texting every weekend, sometimes multiple times in the weekend, it became really hard because a Blackberry is not designed <laugh> to send more than 500 text message at the same time. It will take us three hours. Literally, one of us will be in the phone for three hours sending text message. And then we decided, okay, that's three hours is ridiculous. We can't be volunteering more than that. So we kind of stop adding new numbers, but the demand, right. Amount of people that every time we send a text message, they will text back, “Hey, can you add my cousin? Hey, can you add my neighbor?” Or we will be out -because we were putting this out of pocket and I was a student, a first-generation college student that was signing up for, or getting student loans just to pay rent. I couldn't afford really an extra bill. And, you know, that was a reality for most of the folks that were doing this. Not all of us were college students, but, you know, we're all struggling. We started asking our Facebook friends on our page, “Hey, would you all be willing to pitch in to pay the bill?” Right. And yes, that response from the community immediately was yes. “Where can I meet you to get you five bucks, ten bucks, twenty?” So then we started attending community events to collect a donation, but of course, as we are at the community events, people are like, “Oh, you're with Alianza Comunitaria. Can I be added to your list?” And we had to say, no, we couldn't. So we figured out that we needed an online system, and we did everything car washes, literally hanging out at the swap meet, just collecting donations, asking folks who were receiving our text message, who will send them a text, right. Like, “Hey, can you help us? Anything will help.” And we were able to in 2013 transition to an online system that we have continued to have now for a few years. It continued to be all community funded. Now, as you know, some of us found more stability. We were paid out of pocket to continue this system. And we were able to bring in more and more numbers. So our numbers continue to grow. Every time I look at our list, it's bigger. The last time I looked, it was a little over 8,000, but I don't really know our exact number because people just sign up automatically on it. And our Facebook and Instagram, like I said, we get followers every weekend. Every time there is an alert that needs to go out, we get them and here and there, we will hear from community members who tell us, “I've been following for 10 years”. And the amount of trust they have on this network is to the point where we still, we get a lot of messages primarily through our social media, where folks now are sharing with us a lot of very personal information with the hope that we are gonna be able to connect them with resources. Right. So many times, I am the one connecting folks with organizations who are able to provide legal services and/or directing them in the right way to where they can find information about medical or health services. There's a lot of questions around schools for their kids. So it becomes--even though we try not to Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 12 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 promote it, ‘cause it's still volunteer run, so it's capacity. It's an issue. We are part of the North County community, specifically the immigrant community. So they look at us for all sorts of information. So right now, during COVID we had folks who were looking at us for resources. What can we do to help feed our families or to access the vaccine? Like a lot of folks are, um, we had questions around, Will this affect my immigration status? Or I’m undocumented. Can I access these resources? So we continue to do that work. And of course, our notification system continues to be up and running and just growing, even though we are trying not to grow it as much. Sheehan: That's really, really incredible. You said you've seen these DUI checkpoints where really Border Patrol is kind of hanging out there trying to catch undocumented persons. Have you experienced any other issues that immigrants face in, you know, the border region? Serrano: Yeah. I mean and, you know, just to clarify, that was many years back. Like close to 10 years back. And the reason I make that clarification is because things have changed. Policies and laws really for the state of California has changed that make that illegal to an extent <laugh>. So, I just wanna clarify that because I don't want the departments coming after me, like, you're saying we're violating the law. That's not true. Yes. But you did at one point. <laugh> Yes. I mean, there is a lot of challenges. Like I said, at this point I've been working with the immigrant community in North County for over 10 years. And there are challenges at all levels, from parents trying to navigate the schools. To folks not being able to access healthcare. We know that, unfortunately, undocumented folks, even if they qualify because of income and you know, the other requirements for medical, they're not able to access it just because of their immigration status. So I had to, even with my own family, have to navigate the system, or try to navigate the system because there's really no navigation when you're being denied services, because you don't have health insurance. And you're not able to access health insurance because you cannot afford private. And the ones that are subsidized by the government, you don't qualify because of your immigration status. So for me personally, that has been an important fight to ensure that our safety net is open, right. For the state of California our safety net is open for all of us, regardless of immigration status. We have been able to have some win. So as my work out in the community through Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular, I became an advocate for immigrant rights. So right now, we are in April 6th, 2022. And we're very excited because starting May 1st, so in a few couple of weeks, undocumented immigrants 50 years and older will be able to access full scope Medi-Cal if they qualify based on income regardless of their immigration status. So that is a huge win that took us many years. Literally, I had trips to these, sorry, to Sacramento. I have taken the 12-hour bus--and I know how long it takes--12-hour bus to Sacramento with undocumented folks. With folks who are cancer survivors. With folks who are dealing with diabetes and all kinds of chronic disease from North County. Here from our local community who have been living here 20, 30 years. Who have U.S. citizen kids, right. Who are doing everything on their end to be good members of our community. Who are blocked from receiving health services because of their immigration status. So I had the privilege of getting to know them, learning their story, helping them prepare and really become advocates for their own, uh, for themselves and their families. And now, you know, a few years later we are seeing some results from that advocacy. As we are changing the laws and really changing the way undocumented immigrants are perceived in our community. Of course, that has been statewide efforts, right. Like we are part of some statewide coalitions that have been able to bring us those results. Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 13 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 But I can tell you that North County, San Diego has been part of all those conversations throughout the years in part, because of the work that me and other folks have been doing. Sheehan: And so what are some of the methods that you use to advocate? I know you, before you had mentioned when you were in high school and college, you had organized and been a part of protests. Is that the major way that you help advocate or -Serrano: No, that's probably the most visible one for the outside world. And definitely we continue to use public protests as a way of getting attention to the issues. But there's many other ways. We ensure that my role has become being the teacher, right. Like the person that is helping community members learn how to tell their stories, because even though we know the experiences exist in the community, right. Like, I witness them sometimes, you know, like folks call me, like, I can't, I need a test or even in my own family, right. My mother-in-law was in a situation a long time ago where she wasn't feeling right, and she needed to get tested. And we couldn't get an appointment. I, myself, I couldn't sign her up anywhere because she didn't have health insurance because she was undocumented. So I'm seeing this, I'm living through it, but I know that it's hard for our community members to tell that story in a way that other folks are able to understand it and follow along. So I literally had taken the time to first teach folks how the laws are changed, right. Then we also take the time to see which laws need to be changed. Partner with those who have a lot more experience than myself in policy making and, you know, try to come together to create bills that we think might be able to solve the problem. And then have community members learn how to do the advocacy in the legislative process. Which means teaching them how to tell their own personal stories, accompany them to provide that testimony. What there is in a private meeting with legislators at their offices or public hearings. Like anything from public meetings, sorry, public hearings in Sacramento with our state legislators to city councils, right. A lot of times there is things city councils can be doing to improve the lives of folks, but most of us don't know about it or don't know how to communicate with them. I also have helped folks set up meetings or help folks set up meetings. And, at times, especially when some of these meetings are public, media has an interest. So lately that has been one of the skills I've been developing on how do we better work with media to ensure that the stories of our community members are out there and folks who might not be in our communities are aware of. Because deep in my heart, I know that people, there's a lot of people that cares who just don't know, they just don't know what's happening. So part of the advocacy is really to ensure that everybody knows what's happening and how things can be fixed in a way that it will not take away from U.S. citizens. Because that's not the point. The point is not to take anything away from a U.S. citizen. The point is to ensure that all of us who contribute to our community get access to the same resources. And that is the part of the work that I have been doing in terms of advocacy. And sometimes we don't achieve that in a public protest, but sometimes you do, <laugh> right. So use the different tools in our toolkit for advocates. Sheehan: And so that, is it a bill or a law that's going into effect in May? That's a big win for the immigrant rights group. Is there any other progress that kind of stands out to you in the past 20 years? Serrano: Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 14 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Definitely. For me, the one that I was also very passionate and really sparked my interest in learning how advocacy works at the state level is the passage of SB 54 or the California Values Act back in 2000 and 2017. <laugh> Yes, it went into effect in January of 2018. So the SB 54, the California Values Act is also known at the national level as the California Sanctuary Law, which really prohibits law enforcement from collaborating with immigration enforcement. That's the law that I was hinting earlier <laugh> about me making sure that I clarify that those incidents happened before 2018. Because in the state of California-and we were the first state in the nation--and actually now a few years later, some states have been following our lead in ensuring that law enforcement, your local police department are not in the business of deporting community members. When we first started talking about--going back to my experience here in North County, right. I was involved in the community. I knew about this DUI checkpoints. They were becoming a ridiculous thing where we documented checkpoints on a Tuesday at 10:00 AM in front of a high school in Escondido. What drunk driver is driving at 10:00 AM in front of a high school on a Tuesday? And I mean, I know there might be folks driving under the influence at the time, but they’re definitely folks who need help. Because we were seeing the DUI checkpoints and not outside of bars, right. They're not there--once again, it was obvious to us that they were not targeting drunk drivers. They were targeting undocumented immigrants. And they were targeting because they were able to impound the car because at the time undocumented immigrants couldn't get a license. And once again, we were seeing immigration enforcement presence. So we were able to first tackle the license. So the state of California became the first, uh, one of the first states to give undocumented driver's licenses. But for us here in North County, we knew that the problem was really the collaboration, the close collaboration between immigration enforcement and law enforcement. A lot of folks don't know this, but the Escondido Police Department was one of the first ones to launch a pilot where ICE agents, or immigration enforcement agents, were literally riding along with the police department. They had an office within our department headquarters. They were one in the same, basically. That later translated in laws in the states of Arizona and other places. So we knew that North County had something to do with the birth of that collaboration. So we needed to be part of the disentanglement of that collaboration. We worked with legislators for many years, and finally in 2018 in the state of California, now it's illegal for police departments to fully collaborate with immigration enforcement. Unfortunately, there's still some exceptions to the law, so there continues to be collaboration. We continue to fight every single one of the forms of collaboration. But for the most part, the state of California is able to say that our law enforcement doesn't collaborate with immigration enforcement. And that has been part of the result of the advocacy that happened statewide. But I can say that Escondido specifically was constantly brought up in those conversations because we were one of the first departments to start that collaboration. So then we were definitely one of the first to stop after the state law was passed. Sheehan: And so do other border states like Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, do they have similar laws to what California is or do they even consider having those laws? Serrano: I think in the state of Arizona and Texas actually had been having the opposite fight. The state of Arizona was one of the first, I think it was the first to launch it statewide, to not just allow the collaboration, but it was almost like demand law enforcement to collaborate with immigration enforcement and demand law enforcement to become one in the same with immigration. So, yes, Arizona, sorry, California is right Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 15 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 now the only one that has that state law, at least for the bordering states. I think the other one that will be kind of like a good example of the work on the opposite will be New York. And definitely some of the smaller states are. Their laws are not as strong as ours, but they are definitely on the way there to hopefully disentangle that. Sheehan: So that kind of brings me to the end of my questions here. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything you'd like to share? Serrano: Um, let me think. <laugh> I know I talked to you about many, many different things, but I think for me, something that resonates a lot the work that we've been doing is recently the whole San Diego County went through the redistricting process. For those who don't know, redistricting happens every 10 years after a census count. Now, when I arrived to this region, it was right before the last census in 2010. I arrived to North County in 2008. And I knew that there was a lot of Latinos, a lot of Spanish speakers, right. I felt right at home. But the 2010 census was severely undercounted Latinos. Now in 2020 census, I was able join the efforts to ensure that folks were counted. And even though we continue to see a severe undercount for our communities, now as we have the count and we get to redistrict our community, we get to say that the North County district, which right now will be District 5 for the County Board of Supervisors, is at least 45% Latino. So that to me just goes to show the amount of growth that our Latino community, immigrant communities, have had in North County. And, it was recent, but we are starting to see a trend on the change of policy makers. So we are seeing a lot of Latinos, a lot of immigrants and/or the children of immigrants being elected to school boards, being elected to city councils. You know, crossing fingers. So we will see them at the Board of Supervisors, and we will see them at the state and federal level representing North County. And I think for me, as somebody that has done a lot of work in this region in the last 10 years, it just goes to show the power our community has when we organize ourselves and we imagine what can be done. It wasn't there before. Because I remember 2008 when I arrived, this was a very conservative community, and it continues to be conservative, but it was, uh, I remember it was at Cal State San Marcos, the first time a peer, somebody my age called me beaner and told me to go back to Mexico. So that is the reality for a lot of families in North County. The racism that was just open and accepted, right. The practice by our policy makers and even by our neighbors of denigrating you because you're Mexican. Telling you to speak English because this is the United States or telling us to go back to Mexico. Even for folks who are not even originally from Mexico, right. Our Central American community members were being told to go back to Mexico. Fast forward to 10 years now, even though I recognize that we continue to be a very conservative community, North County is changing. And it's changing because the number of Latinos is increasing, and we are now creating a Latino leadership in a region. And I don't know if our administrators at Cal State San Marcos know, but in part is because of the presence of Cal State San Marcos. Because nowadays as an alum, as a Latina, as a Spanish speaker, I run into so many folks who have attended San Marcos, who are from this community and who are creating change. And we expect that that will continue to create an impact in our region. Sheehan: Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 16 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 And so in the 2010 census, there were more immigrants here than the census showed. And then in 2020, that number had grown. What do you think keeps people from wanting to participate in that census? Is it a fear of deportation? Serrano: Yeah, definitely. When you're undocumented you want nothing to do with the government. Government is your enemy. And in part that has been because of our doing, as the United States. We have used every-- you know, it's almost like when we talk about immigration, it comes in waves, right. And every time that there is this like conservative tough on immigrant approach, we create fear, and we create cases in which folks get deported from our communities. Obama, the Obama administration has the record on deportations in all of the country. So when a Democrat president is deporting your family, and now you have another new administration, even if it's Democrat, Republican. As an immigrant, you fear them. They're your enemy. Regardless of who they are like, they're your enemy because they are the ones responsible for separating your family and/or separating a family that you know. So when you are undocumented, the government is your enemy and any interaction you avoid. And that's what we saw with the census, right. Even though the census should have absolutely nothing to do with immigration enforcement, folks are afraid of it because they don't know how it could be used against them. Also, unfortunately in 2020, the president that we had at the time, President Trump decided to make it a political move and decided and pushed really hard to include immigration questions on the census, which include a citizenship question. He really fought really hard to include those questions. Even though a court decided not to side with him, and they ended up siding with creating a census that will be more inviting for folks to participate versus creating questions that will prevent folks from feeling as safe participating. And those questions didn't make it to the questionnaire. The president coming on TV already saying that he wanted to use that as part of his immigration enforcement, nobody could take that away from us. So it was fresh on people's memories and I myself, right. Like me and my team, we were out there doing outreach for the census, and we will always get questions. “And how is Trump gonna use this against me?”, right. “How is this gonna be part of the deportation process?” And I can tell them a hundred times that that was not the case, but once again, they had already seen the president be on TV saying that it would be used against them. So those were some of the challenges that we saw with the census. Sheehan: And so that 45% Latino/Latina is probably on the very low side. Serrano: Yes. Sheehan: So that's an incredible growth in North County. Serrano: Yes. Yes, cities like Escondido are now majority Latino with 52%. Cities like Vista and San Marcos are also very close to the 50% mark. Once again, if we were to account for the under count, it's probably safe to say that they're about half Latino population cities. Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 17 2022-11-12 �LILIAN SERRANO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-06 Sheehan: <laugh>. That is an incredible rate. Serrano: Yeah, it is. Sheehan: All right. And did you have anything else that you would like to share? Serrano: No, I think that's all for me. Sheehan: All right. Well, thank you very much for your time today. Serrano: Yeah, no. Thank you for having me. Transcribed by Kevin Vigil 18 2022-11-12 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Serrano, Lilian. Interview transcript. April 6, 2022. Description An account of the resource Lilian Serrano is a California State San Marcos alum. She graduated with a degree in Human Development. Lilian worked with the National Latino Research Center (NLRC) at Cal State San Marcos before moving on to work with Alianza Comunitaria and Universidad Popular. In this interview, Lilian discusses family life and growing up in Tijuana and Oxnard, her experiences as a student activist at CSUSM, and her work as an advocate for immigrant rights in North County. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lilian Serrano Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Kevin Vigil Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-06 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos Community organization Undocumented immigrants -- San Diego County (Calif.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oxnard (Calif.) San Diego County (Calif.) Tijuana (Baja California, Mexico) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Lilian Serrano License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <p class="p2"><a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> <b></b></p> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-16 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2022-11-23 Activists and activism Community history History Department internship Immigrant experience Latine experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David Shaffer OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ShafferDavid_BeyerJason_2025-11-20.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Veteran;Master Sergeant;United States Air Force;Germany;Portugal;Cold War;Six-Day War;Air Traffic Controller;San Diego County OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Shaffer, David. Interview November 20th, 2025 SC027-095 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran ; Master Sergeant ; United States Air Force ; Germany ; Portugal ; Cold War ; Six-Day War ; Air Traffic Controller ; San Diego County David Shaffer Jason Beyer Moving image ShafferDavid_BeyerJason_2025-11-20.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e60dc869cbce01c35fe843aa0a4ca62d.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction and Military Background David Shaffer served in Europe as a captain in the U.S. Air Force during the 1960s. US Air Force ; Captain ; Cold War ; Europe 0 56 Personal Background Shaffer was born in Colorado Springs, Colorado. At four years old, he and his family moved to San Diego, California where his father worked as an engineer for Consolidated Aircraft. His family lived in defense housing. Shaffer remembers a large celebration in Balboa Park on Victory over Japan Day. Colorado Springs (Colo.) ; Colorado ; San Diego (Calif.) ; California ; Consolidated Aircraft ; B-24 ; B-32 ; South Cheyenne Canyon Road (Colo.) ; Pikes Peak (Colo.) ; Convair ; VJ Day ; Victory over Japan Day ; Balboa Park 0 237 Military Veteran Family Members Shaffer says his great-grandfather was a soldier in the 2nd Pennsylvania Heavy Artillery Regiment in the American Civil War. He says he also had a Prussian ancestor who defected during the American Revolution and lived in German-speaking Pennsylvania. His grandfather’s brother was an Army cavalryman in the Philippines in 1898. Shaffer’s father tried to join the Navy but was rejected due to a knee injury. His father worked for Convair in Colorado Springs, studied engineering at Denver University, then moved to San Diego. 2nd Pennsylvania Heavy Artillery Regiment ; American Civil War ; Prussian ; British ; American Revolution ; Pennsylvania ; German ; American ; Philippines ; cavalryman ; Fort Bliss ; Texas ; Colorado ; Cortez (Colo.) ; Galloping Goose ; Denver and Rio Grande Railroad ; Navy ; Convair ; Colorado Springs (Colo.) ; Denver University ; San Diego (Calif.) 0 387 Work, Education, and Beginning of Military Service Shaffer was a marine engine mechanic on Shelter Island and a student at San Diego State. After college graduation, he enlisted in the U.S. Air Force. Shaffer wanted to be a pilot but was too tall, so he became an air traffic controller. Designing forward airfields was one of his responsibilities, which he did during the 1967 Arab–Israeli war. Shaffer got married at Lajes Field in the Azores, Portugal. He was a shift supervisor at Lajes Field for 18 months. He then transferred to Hahn, Germany and became the flight facilities officer at Hahn Air Base. Shaffer was the Officer in Charge of all the air traffic controllers at Hahn Air Base in West Germany from 1965 to ‘68. When his military service ended, he settled down in San Diego and became a high school teacher in North County. marine engine mechanic ; Shelter Island ; San Diego ; San Diego State University ; Air Force ; Officers Training School ; Second Lieutenant ; Air Force ; air traffic controller ; Keesler Air Force Base ; TERPS ; Terminal Instrument Procedures ; forward airfield ; U.S. Army Corps of Engineers ; Six-Day War ; Sinai Peninsula ; Lajes Field ; Azores (Portugal) ; Portugal ; Strategic Air Command ; General Curtis LeMay ; Hahn (Germany) ; Germany ; Officer in Charge ; Hahn Air Base ; West Germany ; North San Diego County 0 584 Decision to Join the Air Force Shaffer decided to join the Air Force because he always wanted to be a pilot. He was especially fond of the B-36 Peacemaker, which his father worked on as an engineer at Convair. Shaffer says his father hired many little people to install jet engines for the A model B-36 because they were small enough to enter the wing. Air Force ; B-36 ; B-36 Peacemaker ; Convair ; San Diego ; A model B-36 ; engineer ; little people 0 719 Military Training Shaffer began officers training school at Lackland Air Force Base. He tells a humorous story about how his training officers tricked the trainees into getting drunk at an officers' club then forced them to mow the lawn by hand. Shaffer’s air traffic controller training took place at Keesler Air Force Base. He then took his final exam at Tinker Air Force Base. When he returned to Keesler, he worked on the terminal instrument approach procedure (TERPS). Shaffer says he was the only TERPS certified officer while on air base in Germany. He recalls the impact that Jimmy Stewart’s films about officer responsibility had on him. Lackland Air Force Base ; San Antonio (Tex.) ; Texas ; officer trainee club ; officers' club ; Germany ; Keesler Air Force Base ; air traffic controller ; Air Force ; FAA ; Federal Aviation Administration ; ATC ; air traffic controller ; Navy ; Army ; Tinker Air Force Base ; Oklahoma City ; TERPS ; BFS ; Bundesanstalt für Flugsicherung ; Hahn (Germany) ; sergeants ; Azores (Portugal) ; Jimmy Stewart ; World War II ; Air Force 0 944 Military Promotions Shaffer was promoted to Captain while serving in Germany, but as an AFSC 1634B he could not fly. He did not receive pilot training due to his tall height and a shortage of air traffic controllers on base. Ultimately, Shaffer requested his release from active duty in Germany because he wanted pilot training. Azores ; Second Lieutenant ; First Lieutenant ; Captain ; Germany ; 1634B ; AFSC ; Air Force Specialty Code ; 1634A ; air traffic controller ; airmen ; sergeants ; Hahn (Germany) ; Air Force ; traveling ; skiing 0 1074 Adjusting to Military Life Shaffer says his disciplined childhood made adjusting to military life easy. He felt comfortable as an air traffic controller but wishes he could have flown a B-36, his favorite plane. childhood ; air traffic control ; B-36 ; Davis–Monthan Air Force Base ; Tucson (Ariz.) ; Arizona ; B-52 0 1137 Deployment to Europe After tech school, Shaffer was assigned to Lodges Field in the Azores, Portugal. Shaffer grew up in a Portuguese community of San Diego. When he arrived at Lodges Field, the family members of a childhood friend gave him a surprise welcome. He says being in the Azores felt like home. Shaffer married the daughter of a colonel at Lodges Field. Keesler Air Force Base ; Mississippi ; Lodges Field ; Azores (Portugal) ; Portugal ; San Diego (California) ; McGuire Air Force Base ; New Jersey ; Navy ; Air Force ; Colonel ; wife 0 1289 Designing Forward Airfields during the Six-Day War Shaffer designed forward airfields during the 1967 Arab–Israeli war, also known as the Six-Day War. The 50th Tactical Fighter Wing at Hahn Air Base needed a landing place in the Sinai Peninsula. Ultimately, the war was over before the forward bases could be used. Six-Day War ; forward airfield ; 50th Tactical Fighter Wing ; Hahn (Germany) ; U.S. Army Corps of Engineers ; Sinai Peninsula ; Israel ; Middle East 0 1374 Experience with Local Populations in Europe Shaffer would often snow ski during his free time in Europe. He and his friend once had a negative encounter with some German men in a bar who resented the American military presence, but overall people were very nice. While living in Kastellaun, Germany, he and his roommate decided to visit a nearby German Army base, Hunsrück-Kaserne, and drink beer with the Lieutenants there. At the base, he and his friend were treated to a German dinner with some lieutenants and colonels who told them a story. The German officers were in the Afrika Korps during WWII. In North Africa, they were captured by the British, held in a POW camp, then passed on to Americans who brought them to the United States. The German soldiers were held in a POW camp in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. In 1944, the U.S. military put them in civilian clothes and took them on a tour of the United States. Ultimately, they were sent to work on a loading dock for the R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company. At that job, there was an old night watchman called Old Gold. In 1957, after they returned to Germany, they received word that Old Gold had passed away. The German officers returned to the U.S. and served as pallbearers for Old Gold’s funeral. Shaffer concludes this story by noting how much those German officers loved the United States. snow ski ; Ramstein Air Base ; Austria ; Bavaria ; Lieutenants ; German ; World War II ; Hitler Youth ; Kastellaun (Germany) ; Germany ; Koblenz (Germany) ; Hunsrück-Kaserne ; military police ; BMW ; Afrika Korps ; Libya ; POW camp ; North Africa ; United States ; Winston-Salem (N.C.) ; North Carolina ; Marshall Plan ; Texas ; California ; Mount Rushmore ; Yellowstone National Park ; Iowa ; R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company ; Bundesrepublik Deutschland ; Federal Republic of Germany ; Bundeswehr ; West German Army 0 1854 Serving as an Air Traffic Controller in Germany In 1966, Shaffer got permission to visit Berlin where he got facility rated in the control tower at Tempelhofer Feld. Shaffer describes how the Americans did all the air traffic control in West Berlin. Shaffer says a C-130 once left Rhine-Maine and entered the corridor at Checkpoint Alpha, but the East Germans cancelled the flight plans. Shaffer believes that the East Germans wanted to cause a midair collision between an Air France passenger plane and an Air Force cargo plane. Shaffer describes how Vietnam War protests made the U.S. look like a “paper tiger” in Russia’s eyes. Shaffer was convinced that protests in the U.S. were going to cause a Soviet invasion of West Germany. Whenever Shaffer could take leave, he and his friends would go skiing. F-100 Super Sabre ; Hahn (Germany) ; Air Force ; Vietnam ; F-4 Phantom ; Ground-Controlled Approach ; Berlin (Germany) ; Keesler Air Force Base ; Mississippi ; Tempelhofer Feld ; Checkpoint Alpha ; Frankfurt (Germany) ; Checkpoint Bravo ; West Berlin ; Berlin Tegel Airport ; C-130 ; Frankfurt Rhine-Main ; Checkpoint Alpha ; Air France ; Sud Aviation Caravelle ; Stars and Stripes ; ADIZ ; Air Defense Identification Zone ; East Germany ; West Germany ; Soviet Union ; Europe ; Garmisch-Partenkirchen ; US Army ; Austria ; Kitzbühel (Austria) ; Canadian Air Force ; Zweibrücken (Germany) 0 2192 End of Military Service and Return to San Diego Shaffer was released from active duty in December 1967. He and his wife traveled to the Soviet Union, where many people admired their Western European clothes. They then spent a few weeks skiing in Austria before flying back to McGuire Air Force Base from Rhine-Main. Due to escalating anti-war protests in 1968, they returned to the U.S. in their civilian clothes. Shaffer took leave and decided to return to San Diego. He encountered protestors at Philadelphia Airport while disembarking from an Air Force bus. Shaffer says a “hippie” spit on him, so he “decked the hippie right there in the airport.” Shaffer was received well by his family and community in San Diego, which he considers a “military town.” Shaffer says he still hates those who dodged the military draft. Europe ; Austria ; Soviet Union ; Air Force ; Moscow (Russia) ; Munich (Germany) ; clothes ; Germany ; Frankfurt Rhine-Main (Germany) ; McGuire Air Force Base ; United States ; Vietnam ; the Pentagon ; Andrews Air Force Base ; San Diego (Calif.) ; Philadelphia Airport ; Philadelphia (Pa.) ; Navy ; Marines ; Army ; hippie ; protest ; Ohio ; San Diego (Calif.) ; family ; community ; draft dodgers ; New Zealand ; Australia ; Germany ; France ; Canada 0 2522 Return to Civilian Life, the G.I. Bill, and Pilot Training Shaffer started teaching high school upon his return to civilian life. He says kids’ attitudes had changed considerably since the early sixties, which he attributed to the influence of hippie culture. The G.I. Bill helped Shaffer get his master’s degree at San Diego State College (now San Diego State University) and his private pilot license. civilian life ; teaching credentials ; high school teacher ; Air Force ; hippies ; G.I. Bill ; pilot training ; VA ; Veterans Affairs ; ATP ; airline transport pilot ; private license ; San Diego State College ; Palomar Airport ; Carlsbad (Calif.) ; Fallbrook (Calif.) 0 2699 Maintaining Friendships After Service Shaffer had a close friend and skiing partner in the military, Fred Deal, who recently passed away. Their wives are still friends. friendship ; skiing ; Air Force ; Arkansas 0 2726 How Military Service Shaped His Identity reflection ; military service ; veteran ; Air Force ; Shaffer reflects on how military service shaped his identity. He says he wanted to serve in the military since he was a little kid. Shaffer hoped to fly planes in the military, but his height prevented him from receiving the necessary training. 0 2785 The F-4 Phantom Shaffer shares his experience with the McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II, also known as the F-4 Phantom. While serving at Hahn Air Base, Shaffer had to redesign the holding patterns in order to accommodate the F-4. In his opinion, the F-4 was not a good dogfighter. F-4 Phantom ; F-100 ; TACAN ; Tactical Air Navigation ; DME ; Distance Measuring Equipment ; German Air Force ; MiG ; Mikoyan ; Sukhoi ; Vietnam ; Wild Weasel ; F-105 ; radar ; anti-aircraft ; Navy ; Robert McNamara ; Lyndon Johnson ; Cuthbert A. Pattillo ; Russian ; Fulda Gap ; Hahn (Germany) ; the 50th Wing ; West Germany 0 2980 Message for Future Generations Shaffer says, “Patriotism is number one in my book.” He thinks that those who do not study history are bound to repeat it. Shaffer tells his granddaughter that “whatever land we think is ours is only ours as long as we're strong enough to keep it.” As a Freemason, he is dedicated to promoting patriotism with younger generations. history ; patriotism ; Freemasonry 0 3064 What More People Should Understand About Veterans Shaffer wishes that more people understood the difference between military veterans who were drafted and those who chose to enlist. He talks about his brother-in-law who is in poor health due to Agent Orange in Vietnam but is still proud of his military service. veteran ; draft ; Agent Orange ; Vietnam ; military 0 3144 Life Lessons from Military Service Shaffer reemphasizes that his military service taught him the importance of patriotism. He describes the United States as “the best country that ever existed on the face of the earth.” patriotism ; country 0 3211 Personal Connection with San Diego County Shaffer’s parents, sister, and friends were still living in San Diego County. After ending his military service, Shaffer accepted a job teaching high school industrial arts in North County, where he and his wife relocated. San Diego County (Calif.) ; Europe ; Germany ; Air Force ; wife ; parents ; sister ; friends ; high school ; teaching ; industrial arts ; North County 0 Oral history Captain David Shaffer served in Europe as an air traffic controller during the 1960s. Shaffer was raised in San Diego County where his father was an engineer for Convair. From a young age, Shaffer aspired to become a military pilot, a goal which his tall height prevented. As an air traffic controller, Shaffer spent most of his deployment in Portugal and West Germany during the Cold War. He designed forward airfields during the 1967 Arab–Israeli war, although the conflict was over before they could be used. After leaving military service, Shaffer taught high school industrial arts in North San Diego County. He used the G.I. Bill to gain his master’s degree from San Diego State College and his private pilot license. In this oral history interview, Shaffer tells stories from his military service and reflects on the importance of patriotism. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:03.544 --> 00:00:37.676 My name is Jason Beyer, and I'm a graduate of CSUSM (California State University San Marcos). Today's date is Thursday, November 20, 2025. And we're conducting this interview at CSUSM in the CSUSM Library, located in San Marcos, California. Today we're with veteran David Shaffer. This oral history will help preserve the lived experiences of United States military veterans. Please state your full name. 00:00:37.676 --> 00:00:39.715 David Bernard Shaffer. 00:00:39.715 --> 00:00:41.564 Your branch of service. 00:00:41.564 --> 00:00:43.424 US Air Force. 00:00:43.424 --> 00:00:45.234 The highest rank that you attained. 00:00:45.234 --> 00:00:47.103 Captain. 00:00:47.103 --> 00:00:52.005 And please state the war or conflict that was happening during your time in service. 00:00:52.005 --> 00:00:56.945 Well, it'd be the Cold War, 'cause I was in Europe in the 1960s. 00:00:56.945 --> 00:01:02.284 So right now we're gonna start with introductions. Where were you born and raised? 00:01:02.284 --> 00:01:25.105 I was born and raised in Colorado Springs, Colorado until I was four years old. Then we came to San Diego, California when I was four. My dad worked for Consolidated Aircraft building B-24s and B-32s and all other airplanes thereafter, till he retired in 1974. 00:01:25.105 --> 00:01:29.305 For the years that you were in Colorado, do you remember what that experience was like? 00:01:29.305 --> 00:02:28.004 Yes, I do. My dad—we lived on South Cheyenne Canyon Road and the river that came over Seven Falls came down in front of our house in a meadow. My dad used to go out every morning before he'd go to work, and the deer were being forced down off Pikes Peak, and he's gonna pick out a deer that he wanted for deer season and—nope, not that day. So the next day we'd do the same thing, and I'd go out there with him—oh, there's one. He'd shoot the deer. We'd pile in our '37 Ford and go up and go across our little stone bridge into that meadow, and he'd wrestle the deer up onto the fender—bring it back, hanging it up in the garage by its rear feet. My grandfather would come up and he and I would dress that deer all day long. I was a 3-year-old kid. Somewhere in my archives, I have a picture of me at three years old standing by that deer with a wooden gun (laughs). 00:02:28.004 --> 00:02:34.525 When you moved to San Diego, what was life like for you in San Diego? Or the transition to San Diego? 00:02:34.525 --> 00:03:57.064 Well, in San Diego we lived in defense housing, and my dad had told me then my mother that he's not coming home from work maybe once a month until this war was over—World War II. So he stayed at Convair—Consolidated Aircraft—24 hours a day, seven days a week, and expected his employees to do the same thing. And he said, if the soldier, sailors, airmen and Marines can live in tents and in foxholes, the last least he could do was stay at work until the war was over. And he did. I very seldom ever saw him. And on VJ Day (Victory over Japan Day)—was my sister's first birthday, so my mother's getting ready to go down and pick him up from work, and we're gonna go out to Balboa Park for a party—for a birthday party for my sister. I was a 5-year-old kid. So we went down there and my dad piled in the car and says, "Yeah, the Japanese surrendered today." So when we got to Balboa Park, I never saw such a party in my life. There were thousands of people hugging and kissing and drinking and having a grand old time. And at first I thought they were all there for my sister's birthday, but I realized they weren't (laughs). VJ Day, San Diego, in Balboa Park. 00:03:57.064 --> 00:04:00.985 Did anyone in your family ever serve in the military before you? 00:04:00.985 --> 00:06:27.274 Yes. My great-grandfather was a soldier of the second Pennsylvania heavy artillery (2nd Pennsylvania Heavy Artillery Regiment) in the Civil War (American Civil War). His dad and people before him were—well, I shouldn't say this, but I'm going to anyway. His grandfather—my grandfather's great-grandfather's grandfather—was a soldier with the Prussian army fighting with the British in the revolution (American Revolution). And he realized he'd made a big mistake. So he deserted, went over into Pennsylvania and took out a couple letters in his name and blended in in German-speaking Pennsylvania and became an American in that process in the 1700s. But yes, I have my Uncle Bliss, Bliss Shaffer. He was my grandfather's little brother. He joined the Army in 1898 and was in the Philippines. He was a horse soldier, cavalryman. And he was at Fort Bliss, Texas. And when I was a little kid, I always thought they named Fort Bliss after my Uncle Bliss. But I realized later they didn't. Anyway, he got outta the Army in 1928 and did a lot of jobs around Colorado. He had a pinto bean farm in Cortez. He drove the Galloping Goose (railcar) on the Denver and Rio Grande Railroad for a while. He drove my grandmother nuts 'cause he was always showin' up at the house with another saloon floozy (laughs)—that she called 'em. Anyway, Bliss, my grandfather, and my dad—and my dad would try to join the Navy, but my mother had taught him to ski and he'd really wrecked a knee. And he always had this trick knee the rest of his life. And the Navy wouldn't take him. He wanted to be a photographer with the Navy. So he ended up getting hired from Convair in Colorado Springs. They sent him to Denver University for a crash course in engineering that took about six or eight weeks—or months, I'm not exactly sure—in 1943. Then we came to San Diego in March of 1944. 00:06:27.274 --> 00:06:37.685 What were you doing before you joined the service? Were you going to school? Did you have a job? Or were you helping the family out? 00:06:37.685 --> 00:09:44.205 I had a job. I was a marine engine mechanic, outboard motors and inboard motors on Shelter Island in San Diego. I was a student at San Diego State (San Diego State University). The Air Force wouldn't talk to me until I had a college degree, 'cause I wanted to go to OTS—Officers Training School. So I graduated in January, 1963, then they would talk to me 'cause I could show 'em a diploma (laughs). And by the end of '63, I was a Second Lieutenant in the United States Air Force, but I was too tall to be a pilot, and that's what I wanted to be. I was six-foot four and about 220 pounds. And they said, "Nope, too tall." So I was—I said, "Okay, air traffic control, then. I wanna be an air traffic controller." So they sent me to Keesler Air Force Base in January of 1964 as a Second Lieutenant for tech school for air traffic control. And I finished that along with a TERPS (Terminal Instrument Procedures) certified terminal instrument approach procedure. It would've been my job, if we'd ever had to deploy to a forward airfield, to design the forward airfield to give it to the Corps of Engineers in the Army and also the BCE, the base civil engineers of the Air Force, to build the runway where I had designed it. And in 1967, that Six-Day War, I designed six of them in the Sinai Peninsula for real. But they never used 'em 'cause the war was over in six days. Which amazed me, 'cause I had gotten married the day that war started. I had a wife floating around somewhere in the world, and I didn't know where she'd gone. So after six days, I signed out on leave to go find her. And we ended up finding her. Had the church wedding in Lajes Field in the Azores (Portugal). Now air traffic control officers are required to be shift supervisors in bases that are run by the Strategic Air Command (SAC). General LeMay (General Curtis LeMay) said, "I want all of my shift supervisors and all SAC bases to be officers." Well, it was a good way of getting training to become a flight facilities officer later, like I was at Hahn, Germany. I was a shift supervisor in Lajes Field for 18 months, and then I was transferred to Hahn, Germany as the flight facilities officer. I was the OIC (Officer in Charge) of all the air traffic controllers at Hahn Air Base, West Germany from 1965 to '68. And then my wife—being an Air Force brat, I married the colonel's daughter that I found in the Azores—she didn't want to spend any more time living three years here and three years there, so I didn't go into air traffic control when I got back to San Diego. I had teaching credentials from the state. I started teaching industrial arts and history in high schools here in North San Diego County. 00:09:44.205 --> 00:09:48.433 Why did you particularly choose the branch that you served in? 00:09:48.433 --> 00:11:59.904 Well, I wanted the Air Force because I wanted to fly. I was in love with the B-36 Peacemaker, and I wanted to fly a B-36. I just, ever since I was a kid, my dad had—they brought—the B-36s were built by Convair. They came to San Diego. The A model did not have the jet engines on the wingtips, and all of the jet engines were added to the A model B-36 here in San Diego. And it was my dad's job to figure out how to put the—as an engineer at Convair—to figure out how to put those jet engines on an airplane that was already built. There was two ways of doing it. Either take the skin off of the wing and do all your work and then re-skin it, which meant you had to re-stress the wing—and it was very time consuming and expensive. Or, find somebody small enough to get out in that wing and do the work. So in the summer of 1951, I believe it was—50 or 51—he and two other engineers advertised all over the country for what we today call little people. But in those days we called 'em dwarfs and midgets—not to be derogatory, but that's what they were called. He hired 300 of them that came to San Diego that could get out in that wing and add all the hardware and tubing and brackets and everything to mount those jet engines. At one time, San Diego had more little people—midgets and dwarfs—than any other city in the United States. They were well thought of, they were well paid, and they were very valuable employees even after those jet engines were added to the A model B-36, because there's a lot of places in building an airplane that an adult six-foot tall or five-foot eight and above can't get into to do the work. So they were very, very valuable employees and very well considered. They were loved. 00:11:59.904 --> 00:12:07.715 So we're moving on to your early military experience. What do you remember about your first days in the military? 00:12:07.715 --> 00:13:34.595 Well, my first days in the military were in officers training school at Lackland Air Force Base, San Antonio, Texas. And it's basically what I thought it was going to be. They're not interested in my opinion. They just—I'm to do what I'm told. And so I did. I tried to cooperate the best I could. I made it through there. When our upper class graduated and got their commission as second lieutenants, on a Saturday we got all called together—we're lower classmen. They said, "Monday morning you're gonna be upper classmen, and what we're gonna let you do is go to the OT club"—the officer trainee club, just like a regular officers' club where they had beer and so forth. Now we're all college graduates. We're all 23, 24 years old, and we haven't had a beer in months, so we went in there and within two hours there wasn't a sober person in there. And all at once in the front door come all our training officers all upset with us. So we're out there mowing the lawn—by hand, mowing the lawn. Years later in Germany, I ran across a colonel that was one of the instructors there. And I told him about that. He says, "Oh yeah, we sat out front in the car, and we called the bartender once in a while. Are they ready yet?" It was a big setup, but I thought it was funny, anyway (laughs). 00:13:34.595 --> 00:13:37.475 What kind of training or schooling did you complete? 00:13:37.475 --> 00:14:43.345 Well, the schooling was at Keesler Air Force Base. It was basically—teach you how to be an air traffic controller. The Air Force was the only one at that time that used the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) written exam as an ATC, air traffic controller. The Navy and the Army had written their own—why, I don't know. But we went up to Tinker Air Force Base in Oklahoma City and took our final exam in the FAA headquarters there in Oklahoma City and then flew back to Keesler. And then after we got back to Keesler, we worked on this TERPS, this terminal instrument approach procedure that officers only are responsible for. I was the only TERPS certified officer on the air base there in Germany. But I worked with a BFS TERPS man from—the BFS is the German FAA (Federal Aviation Administration), the Bundesanstalt für Flugsicherung (Federal Institute for Air Traffic Control). And he and I would design all the—and would change all of the instrument approach or departure procedures for Hahn that needed to be changed, like holding patterns and so forth. 00:14:43.345 --> 00:14:49.264 Do you recall any instructors or leaders who had a lasting impact on you? 00:14:49.264 --> 00:15:44.304 Yes, I do. My sergeants. I learned more on a shift there in the Azores from my E7s and E6s and E5s that I worked with than I ever learned in officers training school—other than one thing in officers training school that I really enjoyed. Every week we had a little film done by Jimmy Stewart. And Jimmy Stewart was a general in the army. He was a bomber pilot in World War II, and he would make a film on officer responsibility—how we were supposed to behave as officers in the United States Air Force. And I really looked forward every week to sitting down and listening to that 20-minute or 30-minute film from Jimmy Stewart. It was really great. 00:15:44.304 --> 00:15:50.264 Were there any promotions or milestones during your early days of service that you'd like to share? 00:15:50.264 --> 00:17:54.597 Well, I was promoted in the Azores from Second Lieutenant to First Lieutenant. And I was promoted from First Lieutenant to Captain in Germany—almost the same time I got married in '67. That was all happening at the same time. And I was glad I made it to Captain, but as a 1634B, which is my AFSC, my Air Force Specialty Code, 1634B meant air traffic control officer, non-rated, no wings, maximum rank, captain. A 1634A was an air traffic control officer doing the same job with wings, maximum rank unlimited. And in 1967, I was trying to get—I was still young enough by about three months—to get into pilot training and they were gonna waiver me for my height. But the command that's in charge of air traffic controllers wouldn't release me from my air traffic control duties because it was less than 80% manned worldwide. I was authorized to have 96 airmen and sergeants work for me there in Hahn Germany. And I was lucky if I had 60, because the Air Force could not keep enough air traffic controllers to keep everybody fully staffed. And I understood that, but I lost my opportunity to become a winged pilot. I told them I would go right back into air traffic control if I could just get my wings and be a 1634A instead of a 1634B. And finally I decided to request a release from active duty. So I requested a release from active duty in Germany. My wife and I stayed there for a few more months traveling, around and skiing and so forth before we came home. 00:17:54.597 --> 00:18:00.000 What was the hardest adjustment to military life for you? 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:22.125 It wasn't really difficult. I had a very disciplined childhood. My dad was the kind that didn't tolerate fools very well. So if I acted like a fool, I got notified of the fact. So it wasn't really hard. It was very easy. As a lieutenant and captain. 00:18:22.125 --> 00:18:25.954 What part came naturally or felt the easiest for you? 00:18:25.954 --> 00:18:57.664 Well, the air traffic control just kind of was—not easy, but it was comfortable. I liked it. But I would've liked to have flown that B-36. But by the time I got in the Air Force in 1963, all of the B-36s were in the boneyard at Davis–Monthan Air Force Base in Tucson. The B-52 had taken over the B-36, but I was really in love with that B-36 from a little kid on. 00:18:57.664 --> 00:19:06.204 So we're moving on to your deployment to Europe. When and where were you deployed in Europe? 00:19:06.204 --> 00:21:29.115 Well, my first assignment out of tech school at Keesler Air Force Base in Mississippi was to Lodges Field in the Azores, Portugal. And I got those orders while I was still in tech school in Mississippi. And I'd grown up in a Portuguese colony here in San Diego. And all my kids and I from the fourth grade on were Portuguese. And one of my best friends could not believe that I got sent to Portugal. He thought that was a funny—"How'd you pull that?" I didn't, it just happened. When I got off the airplane in Lodges Field from McGuire Air Force Base in New Jersey in three o'clock in the morning, the only people on the airplane were Navy and Air Force personnel for the base, and I coming down the ladder there, the steps to get off the airplane, and there's a string of Air Force and Navy personnel to accept their new troops. And there are 10 Portuguese civilians standing there. And I thought, what in the world are they doing out here at three o'clock in the morning? I got down to the bottom of the steps, they hollered out my name, they all came running over, were shaking my hand and giving me hugs. They were the grandparents, uncles, cousins, all the relatives of the kid that I'd grown up with in this Portuguese community in San Diego. And my Colonel looks over at me. He says, "Come over, stand Lieutenant. You've been here before? How come you know everybody?" And I had to think about it for a minute, 'cause my mother had told all our neighbors that I was being—and they were all Portuguese for that, in that period of time—that I'm getting transferred to the Azores, Portugal. And one of my friends that I grew up with, the only kid in the fourth grade that was not Portuguese, that he and I got to be friends first—when I first went into this school in San Diego—he kept talking to my dad about it. He kept—"How in the world did they do that? Get to Portugal?" But I loved their father music, their folk music that we used to play in school. I loved their food they had. The Portuguese food, their wines. It was just like old home, being in the Azores. I met my wife there. She was a daughter of a Colonel there on the base. 00:21:29.115 --> 00:21:37.345 What stands out most about your time overseas? Moments that were meaningful or difficult? 00:21:37.345 --> 00:22:54.233 It was a little difficult with that Six-Day War. I thought for sure—I'd gotten married the day that thing started, and I got put on alert instantly. And I started designing those forward airfields because our 50th tac fighter wing (50th Tactical Fighter Wing) at Hahn had to have a place to go. And it was up to me to tell the Corps of Engineers (U.S. Army Corps of Engineers) and the Air Force where was a place that was proper to build an airfield in the Sinai (Sinai Peninsula). And I thought for sure I was gonna end up down there in the Sinai Peninsula. And that was a little difficult those times right in there. But the war was over in six days. I couldn't believe it. How could Israel have taken care of all that in six days? Was just amazing to me. So for those six days it was a little tiring, a little troublesome, 'cause we were dividing up our air traffic controllers to stay at Hahn and most of 'em were gonna go with me down to the Mid East. We were just—and all our fighters were getting ready to go down to the Middle East when the time came to help out. And we didn't get to go. Which is fine. 00:22:54.233 --> 00:22:59.204 What were your experiences like with the local populations or different cultures in Europe? 00:22:59.204 --> 00:35:51.695 Well, the local population, the Germans, were glad we were there. I liked to snow ski. So my friend who was stationed at Ramstein (Ramstein Air Base), he and I were snow skiers and we were always heading to Austria on our leave time to go skiing. We got down in Bavaria and it was so snowy and icy, we couldn't make it on into Austria. So we checked into a (unintelligible) down there. And there were—what did two young Lieutenants do the first thing they get their junk thrown in their room? They head for the bar for a beer! So we're down in the bar—and speaking English, of course—and a couple of guys that were only about six or eight years, maybe five years older than we were—German guys—way too much stupid juice came over and they wanted to pick a fight. They wanted to go out and fight in the snow. Mm-hmm (Shaffer shakes his head). You take a swing at me in here and that's gonna be the last one you swing at me. And finally some older guys came over—World War II vets—and told 'em to knock it off and to be thankful we were American military and not Russian military. And that calmed them down. They went away, but they were probably Hitler Youth and been brainwashed as teenagers. Never made it into the German army, but they had poor little alcohol on them. And up comes all of that stupidity from the—as a Hitler youth. But for the most part they were very nice. Very, very nice to us. And in our town where I lived, Kastellaun, Germany, which is just west of Koblenz, there's a Hunsrück-Kaserne (Hunsrück Barracks), Kastellaun, a German Army base there—tanks, Panzer base. And it was only about a half-a-mile from our house. And my roommate and I decided one afternoon—we were both wandering around the house, still in our uniforms—we're gonna go up to that Hunsrück-Kaserne, Kastellaun and have a beer with the other Lieutenants up there—see what they're up to. So we went up there, the gate guard, the MP (military police) at the gate wanted to know if we knew where the officer's club was. And I said, "No, we've never been on the base before. Driven around it a lot, but never on it." He said, "Well, let me show you." So he jumps on his BMW motorcycle and led us to the officer's club. Walked in there and there's nothing going on down the hall to the right in the bar. I couldn't figure it out. It's not like our fighter base where all the fighter pilots are in there trying to out story each other. Anyway, we walked down the hall and I heard voices in a room just to my left. And I opened the door to see what was in there, and it was a private dining-in with all these German army officers, from two Colonels all the way down to some Lieutenants at the end of the table. And I said, "Oh, excuse me." And I started to close the door. And the Colonel says, "Oh, wait a minute. Come here, come here. I wanna talk to you." So we walked in there. He says, "What's your deal here?" I said, "Well, we live downtown. We just thought we'd come up to the Hunsrück-Kaserne for a beer with the—your lieutenants—and have a beer with you guys." He says, "You had anything to eat yet?" No. "Would you like to join us?" So yes, that'd be nice. So the lieutenants set us up, a couple chairs down at the end in place setting. We had dinner with them—full dining-in, German style. And at the end of the dining-in, the two Colonels up at the—full Colonels—up at the end of the table said, "I wanna tell a story, especially to the two American Lieutenants down there." They had been soldiers, young soldiers, young Lieutenants, in the Afrika Korps. And they were taken prisoner by the British, and they were in a little field, POW camp in North Africa—in Libya probably. And when the United States entered the war in 19—and sent all the troops over in '42 to North Africa, the ships were gonna go back to the United States empty. So they put all of the POWs they'd collected—the British and the Americans—into those ships and brought 'em back to the United States. And these two colonels, along with two other Lieutenants were—four of 'em were buddies—they were put in a POW camp in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. So they spent the rest of the war in Winston-Salem. And because of the Marshall Plan, Marshall told all of the POW—all of the commanders of POW camps in the United States—to treat them well, because whatever's gonna become of Germany after the war is over, these guys that are in these POW camps are going to be the leaders of whatever Germany is to become. So treat them well, so they're not all pissed off at the United States. So in the summer of 1944, they gathered up all of these young Lieutenants and Captains and so forth into a room, into an auditorium, and told them that—that you guys are gonna be the leaders of Germany, and what we want you to do—you don't have to do it, but if you want to—we're gonna put you in civilian clothes, put you on a train, and give you a tour of the United States. So they did. The summer of '44, they went all the way down into Texas, across into California, and up across by Rushmore (Mount Rushmore), Yellowstone (Yellowstone National Park), all the way back across the north, through Iowa, and back to North Carolina. And when they got back there—this is the fall now or the late summer of '44—they said, "We need—if you want to, you would like to, there's an awful lot of businesses in the town here that need help. If you want to, we'd like to send you out to do something besides sitting in the camp." So the four of 'em decided, yeah, they wanted to do that. So they sent 'em to the loading dock on the R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, loading product on the trains in the evening at night shift. And there was an old night watchman on the dock there called Old Gold. And Old Gold was way up in his sixties or seventies. He weren't too sure he wanted four German Lieutenants on his dock. But after a few days he realized, these guys are okay. So Old Gold invited them over to his house for Thanksgiving 1944, Christmas of '44, and Easter of '45. The four of them went back to Germany, and when the Bundesrepublik (Bundesrepublik Deutschland, or "Federal Republic of Germany") was formed in 1953, they went back into the West German Army (Bundeswehr). And in 1957, they were probably all four of 'em Majors or Lieutenant Colonels, Old Gold died. All of 'em took leave from the West German Army, went back to Winston-Salem to be Old Gold's pallbearers. And I would love to have a picture of that if I could find it. Old Gold being buried and being carried by four West German Majors or Lieutenant Colonels. But their love for the United States was just as great as those guys I'd met down in Bavaria that said, "Be thankful they're American soldiers and not Russian soldiers." And in 1966, late '66, we had F-100 Super Sabres there at Hahn. The Air Force, decided to send them back to the States—probably needed them in Vietnam—and provide us with F-4 Phantoms. So there was a period in there of about eight weeks in the late fall, early winter of '66, where we didn't have any airplanes. So I got orders to send my controllers except for a skeleton crew that ran the GCA (Ground-Controlled Approach) and tower during the day—five days a week, just Monday through Friday—and shut down that air base until we got our F-4s. So I gathered 'em all together and asked them where they wanted to go. Some of my sergeants and airmen wanted to go to Berlin. Well, a fellow I'd gone to tech school with in Keesler Air Force Base down in Mississippi, he was doing the same job at Tempelhofer Feld in Berlin that I was doing at Hahn in Germany. So I said, "I want to go too. I wanna see what Berlin's like." So I got permission to go there, and I got facility rated in the control tower. I wasn't there long enough—as long as my sergeants were—I had other things I had to do. I had to get back to West Germany, prepare for the F-4. And the corridor between Checkpoint Alpha, which is just outside Frankfurt, and Checkpoint Bravo—it's when you enter the American sector of West Berlin. And everybody knows about Checkpoint Charlie. That's the third one. That's a footpath in and out east to east. It was all run by the East German air traffic controllers, en route air traffic controllers. So I was sitting there in the control tower one afternoon, and Tegel (Berlin Tegel Airport) was the only civilian airfield in West Berlin, and it was up in the French sector. And we did all the air traffic control in West Berlin—period. Whether it was the American sector, the British sector, or the French sector. So they had to get permission from us to take off and land at Tegel. We had up above Tempelhofer Feld in the American sector, what we call the upside down wedding cake. It wasn't real long approaches to—along the final. It was a kind of a spiral down and a spiral up to get into those corridors. So C-130 had left Rhine-Maine, which is in Frankfurt (Frankfurt Rhine-Main), and entered the corridor at Checkpoint Alpha. And the East Germans canceled his flight plan. And I thought at the time, "Well, why would they do that?" And they were—the pilots flying in and out of Berlin—were briefed, if they do that to you, to shut off all your electronics, all your transponders, everything, and pull out flaps and throttle back and go into what they call slow flight, but don't try to turn around in that corridor or they're gonna shoot you down. So I thought, "Well, he's almost 200 miles away, and he's in slow flight. Now what's the deal?" About that time an Air France Caravelle (Sud Aviation Caravelle) called me from Tegel for takeoff. And I said, "Well, I can't have him ascending in the corridor until I know where that C-130 is." So I told him to stay on the ground until further notice—stay right where he was. About the time I said that, the East German air traffic controller called me and says, "Clearance is approved on the 130." They wanted us to have a midair right over Berlin between an Air France passenger plane and an Air Force cargo plane." Can you imagine that? And every time there was a war protest that went on over here in the United States, especially in Berlin—draft burning and draft dodging and all this other stuff—the Stars and Stripes newspaper would publish it. Of course, the Russians were keeping track of what was going on here too. They thought it was hilarious that we were a paper tiger. They pushed the ADIZ, the Air Defense Identification Zone, between East Germany and West Germany, with just masses of aircraft. And I thought for sure we were gonna get invaded. I didn't think we'd ever not be invaded because of the actions of the war protestors here in the States, especially giving the Soviet Union a green light actually to invade by their attitude here. And fortunately they didn't, but I don't know why they didn't. Sure came close. 00:35:51.695 --> 00:35:59.005 While you were stationed in Europe, did you do anything for good luck or did you have good luck items during your time of service there? 00:35:59.005 --> 00:36:32.224 Well, I loved to snow ski, so I was always heading for Garmisch-Partenkirchen, which is run by the US Army, or the ski areas in Austria. Kitzbühel was my favorite spot in Austria. We'd take leave—probably a week or so, two weeks maybe—in January, and head for Kitzbühel, Austria to go skiing. All of us. The Canadian Air Force was at Zweibrücken down by Ramstein. All the Canadians and us we're always truckin' down to go skiing (laughs). 00:36:32.224 --> 00:36:41.000 So now we're getting ready to talk about your transition out of service. Do you remember the day your service ended? And please describe what that was like. 00:36:41.000 --> 00:40:47.905 Well, I got a release from active duty, actually on the 20th of December '67. And my wife and I decided to stay in Europe. We went back to Austria to go—she liked to ski too—so we went back to Austria. We did make a trip to the Soviet Union. I wanted to see how the other half lived. And I asked the Air Force if it'd be all right if I—my wife and I—went to Moscow. They said, "Oh hell yeah, Dave. You don't know anything. They'd pull all the fingernails outta you they want, but you're not gonna tell 'em anything that's important." So we did go to Moscow. And what Moscow reminded me of in January, 1968, was it was run by a bunch of junior high school kids. They didn't know how to make change in the store. They didn't know how to make change in the restaurants. They didn't seem to care if you were satisfied or not. They'd walk down the street and about knock you in the gutter in, and my wife was all dressed up in her Bavarian clothes 'cause she had been going to college in Munich when we got married. And so they saw these European clothes on us—Western European clothes. We could have gone back to the hotel every night naked because all the locals wanted to buy our clothes off of us. And after that we came back to the Germany and got the car and went down to Austria—spent about three weeks down there skiing and having a good time before we came back to the States. But when I went back up to Rhine-Main to fly back to McGuire, I was authorized to put my uniform back on. I was—all of us lined up to get on the airplane, and the Air Force personnel came out and said, "Do all you guys have civilian clothes?" Yes. "Well, please go put 'em on. Don't be going back to the United States in your military uniforms in '68." And so I went back in—had to put civilian clothes on a ride home. Embarrassing—because of the hatred for Vietnam they were taking that out on us. In 1966, as an Air Force officer in the com squadron, we were also responsible for all of the secret stuff that was going on in the combat operation center. And they had cards printed. And I would take the crypto cards back—had to take the crypto cards back to the Pentagon. And I thought, "Well, no way I can get out of Andrews Air Force Base back to Germany." But I got up to McGuire. And then I thought I'd take a leave and come back to San Diego for a couple days—visit my folks—hadn't seen 'em in several years. So I got a boarding pass out of Philadelphia Airport. And so I piled on the little Air Force bus and rode from McGuire Air Force Base to the airport in Philadelphia. I was the only officer on the bus. There were Navy, Marines, and Army on there. And as I came in there, I got to go through the door first, right into a bunch of hippies that were having a protest. And I got spit on—I decked the hippie right there in the airport. He was out cold instantly. And all the soldiers and sailors and airmen behind me kinda huddled around me, and we stepped over him and went onto our airplane. But that was my first interception of a hippie that spit on me. Now I wasn't so much worried what the Philadelphia police were gonna say to me for deckin' that hippie. I was worried what the Air Force is gonna say. Air Force officers aren't supposed to be decking hippies in airports. I was afraid of what—they were gonna chew me out for it. But nobody ever did anything. About somewhere over Ohio, I cleaned up my uniform and my knees quit shaking. I sat down properly in the airplane and rode on to San Diego. 00:40:47.905 --> 00:40:54.005 How were you received by your family and your community once you returned? Did you come back to San Diego? 00:40:54.005 --> 00:40:55.000 I came back to San Diego, yes. 00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:56.724 How were you received by them? 00:40:56.724 --> 00:40:58.485 Fine. Fine, yes. 00:40:58.485 --> 00:41:00.885 What about the community here in San Diego at this time? 00:41:00.885 --> 00:42:02.195 Oh, well, San Diego is a military town and was more so military in those days than it is today. And it's still a very much of a military town. So it wasn't hard to get accepted back in San Diego. However, I always had a heartburn for draft dodgers. I ran into neighbors, guys I worked with after I left the Air Force, that had all gone to New Zealand, Australia, Germany, France, everywhere—Canada—everywhere in the world to evade the draft—guys my age. And they wouldn't back off. They would call me a lifer. They had all these comments, and the hatred is still there. I have one that still lives in my neighborhood and I won't talk to him—that did that. I just want nothing to do with him. To run off—he ran off to New Zealand to stay away from the military draft. 00:42:02.195 --> 00:42:10.000 This sort of leads into our next question. So what was it like adjusting for you back into civilian life after the military? 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:52.000 Well, coming—I started—I had teaching credentials as a high school teacher before I ever went in the Air Force, so I started teaching high school. And one of the problems was, with my airmen, if I said something, it's "yes sir, no sir." And trying to convince high school kids that I'm in charge was not that easy. See—(Shaffer mockingly mumbles). The attitude of the kids had changed considerably since I got my teaching credentials in the early sixties. By the late sixties, they'd been influenced by too many damn hippies, I think—'cause I could not stand hippies (laughs). 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:59.000 Did the G.I. Bill influence your next steps after the military service as far as going back to school or— 00:42:59.000 --> 00:44:59.304 Yes, yes. I wanted to learn to fly since I was a kid. And since the Air Force wasn't gonna teach me to fly, I'm gonna do it myself. So I went—I thought, well, I'll use my GI bill to help with my pilot training. So I went down to the local office. They said, "Well, we don't pay for the private, but we'll pay for"—this is the VA (Veterans Affairs) now talking about—"we'll pay for everything above your private"— like the commercial, the instrument, the ATP (airline transport pilot) and all the others above it. So I said, "Well now, how am I gonna pay for the private license?" So I decided to sign up at San Diego State for my master's degree, went back to the VA and said, I'm going to go to San Diego State College to get my master's. I need—they said, "Good, we'll send you some money." Well, I used the money they sent me from my master's to get my private. And I got a master's and a private all at the same time. Then I transitioned—after that, now I have a private license—to Palomar Airport in Carlsbad, California to work on my commercial pilot's license. So I used the balance of my G.I. bill at Palomar Airport with flight trails on my commercial. I accumulated maybe 750 hours total by the end of that. And then I'm on my own nickel. So I joined flying clubs and had a friend at work that had an airplane, but he needed all of us at work that had pilot's licenses to rent it from him several times a month so he could make the monthly payments on it. So I rented his airplane for a long time. He lived in Fallbrook, California, and I'd fly it out of Fallbrook and take the wife and kid somewhere, if they wanted to go. 00:44:59.304 --> 00:45:03.835 Did you maintain any friendships after your time in service. 00:45:03.835 --> 00:45:26.585 With the people in the military? Yes. This Fred Deal, the one that I had gone skiing with. He left the Air Force about the same time I did. And yes, until he passed away just a few years ago. His wife Angie is still a friend of my wife's. They live in Arkansas now. He was a good friend. 00:45:26.585 --> 00:45:35.764 So now we're moving on to reflections. How has your military service shaped who you are today? 00:45:35.764 --> 00:49:40.074 I don't tell—I'm like my dad—I don't tolerate fools very well. And I like everything orderly and straightforward. I don't like wishy-washy things. And when I was a little kid, I thought to myself, "I don't want to be 85 years old and not be a veteran." And I think about that all the time. Now that I'm 85 years old and a veteran—good. I didn't want to ever be 85 and not be a veteran of something. Either I was gonna join the military right outta high school or right outta college. And since I wanted to fly airplane so bad in those days, as a kid, I thought, "Well, I'll wait until I'm outta college and then—" But being too big, they wouldn't take me. I wouldn't fit in the cockpit. One of my jobs in the Air Force, when we got the F-4 Phantom, they couldn't hold the holding patterns on our air base of the F-100. It would—the interturn between two TACAN (Tactical Air Navigation) radials at 15 DME (Distance Measuring Equipment) was—we were way over in a German Air Force's airspace. So I had to redesign the holding patterns for that F-4 'cause it ate up real estate like crazy. And I thought this is ridiculous. That F-4 should have been a bomber, not a fighter. It was not a good dogfighter, for instance. The German or the Russian MiGs (Mikoyan, MiG) and Sukhois (Sukhoi) could have outturned that thing in a heartbeat if we'd ever gone to war with them. Now in Vietnam, they used the F-4—and they had the same problem—but they used it for what they called the Wild Weasel. It would go in ahead of the 105s (F-105), pick up the radar from the anti-aircraft sites, and then fire a rocket right down the—their own rocket, their own radar right into them. But as a dogfighter, in my opinion and the Air Force's opinion, it was not a good dogfighter. It was heavy. It still had the Navy hook on the back—which we didn't need in the Air Force, but they had it anyway—McNamara (Robert McNamara) and Lyndon Johnson decided the Air Force was gonna have that. But my wing ops officer, Colonel Pattillo, Cuthbert Pattillo (Cuthbert A. Pattillo), who retired as a four-star general—three-star—he couldn't he couldn't tolerate having it. He didn't like it. It was gonna be a terrible airplane to fight the Russians over the clouds as they invaded through the Fulda Gap. And we couldn't run away because we gotta stay there. Our life expectancy at Hahn, if they'd ever invaded through the Fulda Gap, those of us that were left at Hahn was 20 minutes before we'd been vaporized. Our pilots used to practice in the F-4 and in the F-100s with a patch over one eye, 'cause each one, each pilot at Hahn had a target in the east. He'd never been there, of course, never seen it. He'd studied it on maps. So he knew to fly this road, that ridge line, that river, whatever it took to get to that spot, drop his ordinance and then be lucky if he ever made it back out. Only about 2% of our fighters in the 50th attack fighter wing (the 50th Wing) were ever expected to make it out. And if they did, they had a patch over one eye because with all the atomic weapons going off, their only way out is the good eye that was under the patch. And then there would be no airfields left in West Germany, because in 20 minutes we were all gonna be vaporized, 'cause every airfield, civilian and military was targeted. That they would just fly as far west as they could till they ran outta gas and the motor quit and then eject. 00:49:40.074 --> 00:49:49.324 What message would you want to leave for future generations who may watch or hear this interview? 00:49:49.324 --> 00:51:04.514 Well It's hard to say. Just that, if we don't know history and we don't study our history, we're bound to repeat it. So if this does anything to tell the younger generation—like I've told my granddaughter this stuff, I want her to always remember—that whatever land we think is ours is only ours as long as we're strong enough to keep it. If you look at the maps of the world, there's been so many changes of ownership on land over the centuries that we're only here as long as we're strong enough to keep it. Somebody else is gonna grab it if we get weak. And that's the thing I want to tell 'em. Patriotism is number one in my book. I try to promote patriotism with a younger generation. I belong to an organization in the Masons (Freemasonry) that is dedicated to that. And that's what I want to do. Try to promote patriotism and keep this country as strong or stronger than it is now forever. 00:51:04.514 --> 00:51:10.114 What do you wish more people understood about veterans? 00:51:10.114 --> 00:52:24.385 Well, there are two kinds of veterans. There are those that are drafted and those that go in on their own. I have—those that go in on their own, go in for a reason—their own personal reason. They want to, like I did. Those that are drafted—I don't say that they're not good. Some of 'em realize that this is the best thing they ever did in their life, and others don't. But it's hard to say. It's an individual thing. Like my brother-in-law. He's a year younger than I am. He was drafted into the army right outta college. I told him when he went in, I says, "With your college degree, why don't you become an officer?" "No, I don't wanna do that." Okay, it's your decision. You could have. But he's suffering now with Agent Orange so bad that I don't—from Vietnam—that I don't think he's gonna live much longer. I just went up to see him about a week and a half, two weeks ago, and he can barely move. He's in such bad shape. And—but yet he's proud of being in the military. He's glad he did it, even with the Agent Orange that he got in Vietnam. 00:52:24.385 --> 00:52:33.914 If you were to reflect on the journey of your service, what themes or life lessons emerge? 00:52:33.914 --> 00:53:31.505 Well, that's a good question. Patriotism, like I just mentioned. This is the best country in the world—the world has ever seen—and I thoroughly believe that. We have our problems, but we're still the best country that ever existed on the face of the earth. And it's all a personal—whether you join the military or not, we have good presidents and bad presidents, and we have good leadership and bad leadership from time to time. But generally, we gotta do the best we can to keep this country the way it is—and better—and stronger. And otherwise somebody will take it over on us. Sure as hell. 00:53:31.505 --> 00:53:39.000 So how did you become connected with San Diego County? Is this where you chose to come back after your time in Europe? 00:53:39.000 --> 00:54:24.135 Yeah, I—before I left Germany, before I got a release from active duty, I contacted the education center here in San Diego County, 'cause my parents still lived here, and my sister was living here, and a lot of all my friends were. My wife is an Air Force brat. She didn't have any long time friends. She'd lived three years here, three years there, three years all over the world and didn't have any real ties to any particular place. So yes, I came back here because this is where I was offered a job before I ever left the Air Force, teaching the high school industrial arts up here in North County. 00:54:24.135 --> 00:54:25.000 Thank you again for sharing your story. 00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:26.611 (Shaffer laughs.) 00:54:26.611 --> 00:54:28.735 It's an honor to help preserve it. 00:54:28.735 --> 00:54:31.000 Thank you. Was that okay? 00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:32.500 Yeah, you're good. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the &#13 ; creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ShafferDavid_BeyerJason_2025-11-20.xml ShafferDavid_BeyerJason_2025-11-20.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Shaffer, David. Interview November 20th, 2025 Description An account of the resource Captain David Shaffer served in Europe as an air traffic controller during the 1960s. Shaffer was raised in San Diego County where his father was an engineer for Convair. From a young age, Shaffer aspired to become a military pilot, a goal which his tall height prevented. As an air traffic controller, Shaffer spent most of his deployment in Portugal and West Germany during the Cold War. He designed forward airfields during the 1967 Arab–Israeli war, although the conflict was over before they could be used. After leaving military service, Shaffer taught high school industrial arts in North San Diego County. He used the G.I. Bill to gain his master’s degree from San Diego State College and his private pilot license. In this oral history interview, Shaffer tells stories from his military service and reflects on the importance of patriotism. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-095 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-11-20 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource David Shaffer Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. David Shaffer Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Subject The topic of the resource United States. Air Force Cold War Consolidated Aircraft Corporation Convair Victory over Japan Day Fort Bliss (Tex.) San Diego State University Keesler Air Force Base (Miss.) United States. Army Corps of Engineers Six-Day War Sinai Peninsula Lajes Field (Azores) Strategic Air Command (U.S.) Hahn Air Base (Germany) Lackland Air Force Base (Tex.) United States. Federal Aviation Administration Tinker Air Force Base (Okla.) Bundesanstalt für Flugsicherung (Germany) World War, 1939–1945 United States. Air Force—Occupational specialties Davis–Monthan Air Force Base (Ariz.) McGuire Air Force Base (N.J.) Ramstein Air Base (Germany) Hitler-Jugend European Recovery Program (1948–1952) Servicemen’s Readjustment Act of 1944 Andrews Air Force Base (Md.) United States. Department of Veterans Affairs McClellan–Palomar Airport (Calif.) Germany. Luftwaffe Mikoyan (Firm) Sukhoi (Firm) Johnson, Lyndon B. (Lyndon Baines), 1908–1973 Fulda Gap (Germany) Freemasons Agent Orange Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Europe Colorado Springs (Colo.) Colorado San Diego (Calif.) California Texas Philippines Pennsylvania Cortez (Colo.) Shelter Island (San Diego, Calif.) Azores (Portugal) Portugal Germany San Diego County (Calif.) San Antonio (Tex.) Oklahoma City (Okla.) Tucson (Ariz.) Arizona Mississippi New Jersey Israel Middle East Austria Bavaria Kastellaun (Germany) Koblenz (Germany) Libya Africa, North United States Winston-Salem (N.C.) North Carolina Iowa Vietnam Berlin (Germany) Frankfurt (Germany) Berlin (Germany : West) Germany (East) Germany (West) Soviet Union Garmisch-Partenkirchen (Germany) Kitzbühel (Austria) Zweibrücken (Germany) Moscow (Russia) Munich (Germany) Philadelphia (Pa.) Ohio New Zealand Australia France Canada Carlsbad (Calif.) Fallbrook (Calif.) Arkansas San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/bf4f4b113bcc11eb37cf6ce6bdf0b1fc.pdf 8c4371b5c262998739da418766fb3436 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Shaffer, David. Interview transcript, November 20, 2025. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource David Shaffer Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-11-20 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. David Shaffer License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShafferDavid_BeyerJason_2025-11-20_transcript Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Description An account of the resource Captain David Shaffer served in Europe as an air traffic controller during the 1960s. Shaffer was raised in San Diego County where his father was an engineer for Convair. From a young age, Shaffer aspired to become a military pilot, a goal which his tall height prevented. As an air traffic controller, Shaffer spent most of his deployment in Portugal and West Germany during the Cold War. He designed forward airfields during the 1967 Arab–Israeli war, although the conflict was over before they could be used. After leaving military service, Shaffer taught high school industrial arts in North San Diego County. He used the G.I. Bill to gain his master’s degree from San Diego State College and his private pilot license. In this oral history interview, Shaffer tells stories from his military service and reflects on the importance of patriotism. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Air Force Cold War Consolidated Aircraft Corporation Convair Victory over Japan Day Fort Bliss (Tex.) San Diego State University Keesler Air Force Base (Miss.) United States. Army Corps of Engineers Six-Day War Sinai Peninsula Lajes Field (Azores) Strategic Air Command (U.S.) Hahn Air Base (Germany) Lackland Air Force Base (Tex.) United States. Federal Aviation Administration Tinker Air Force Base (Okla.) Bundesanstalt für Flugsicherung (Germany) World War, 1939–1945 United States. Air Force—Occupational specialties Davis–Monthan Air Force Base (Ariz.) McGuire Air Force Base (N.J.) Ramstein Air Base (Germany) Hitler-Jugend European Recovery Program (1948–1952) Andrews Air Force Base (Md.) Servicemen’s Readjustment Act of 1944 United States. Department of Veterans Affairs McClellan–Palomar Airport (Calif.) Germany. Luftwaffe Mikoyan (Firm) Sukhoi (Firm) Johnson, Lyndon B. (Lyndon Baines), 1908–1973 Fulda Gap (Germany) Freemasons Agent Orange Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Europe Colorado Springs (Colo.) Colorado San Diego (Calif.) California Texas Philippines Pennsylvania Cortez (Colo.) Shelter Island (San Diego, Calif.) Azores (Portugal) Portugal Germany San Diego County (Calif.) San Antonio (Tex.) Oklahoma City (Okla.) Tucson (Ariz.) Arizona Mississippi New Jersey Israel Middle East Austria Bavaria Kastellaun (Germany) Koblenz (Germany) Libya Africa, North United States Winston-Salem (N.C.) North Carolina Iowa Vietnam Berlin (Germany) Frankfurt (Germany) Berlin (Germany : West) Germany (East) Germany (West) Soviet Union Garmisch-Partenkirchen (Germany) Kitzbühel (Austria) Zweibrücken (Germany) Moscow (Russia) Munich (Germany) Philadelphia (Pa.) Ohio New Zealand Australia France Canada Carlsbad (Calif.) Fallbrook (Calif.) Arkansas Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience