18 10 181 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steve Wagner OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Stone Brewing Company;Brewing history;Brewers;San Diego breweries;IPA OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Wagner, Steve. Interview October 24, 2018. SC027-064 01:00:20 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Stone Brewing Company ; Brewing history ; Brewers ; San Diego breweries ; IPA Steve Wagner Judith Downie audio 1.0:|18(14)|35(14)|50(7)|62(19)|73(3)|91(19)|104(5)|128(4)|146(11)|162(19)|175(12)|196(3)|208(16)|227(11)|244(8)|265(16)|290(2)|310(11)|322(7)|343(9)|360(13)|375(11)|390(12)|413(13)|427(3)|444(5)|463(15)|477(15)|493(19)|505(13)|523(17)|540(9)|568(4)|591(3)|613(16)|629(11)|637(10)|654(5)|669(14)|684(6)|699(10)|721(10)|739(6)|754(15)|773(2)|787(16)|803(15)|820(9)|842(6)|856(5)|875(17)|896(12)|918(19)|933(7)|945(10)|966(14)|986(15)|998(10)|1016(10)|1030(6)|1036(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4c12a198b29a2ac447131d9f6636ed05.mp3 Other audio Oral history Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Judith Downie: Today is October 24th, 2018. Judith Downie interviewer for the CSUSM Brewchive® with Steve Wagner, co-founder and co-owner of Stone Brewing. Steve Wagner: (Aside to office staff) Okay. Don't have to worry about that. Alright, great. Downie: So if you will first state your name and position. Wagner: Okay. This is Steve Wagner, I am the cofounder and president of Stone Brewing Company. Downie: Okay. And so if we could get into a little bit of your own background, what the path that led you to Stone would be very informative. Wagner: Yes, absolutely. My story starts in Evanston, Illinois suburb of Chicago where I was born. 1958 and my parents had attended Northwestern University. So, I grew up in the Chicago area until I was about 10 years old and my family moved to Los Angeles, California. My father took a job with Mattel Toy Company , which was very exciting for me and my brothers. In fact, I think that's where my first entrepreneurial venture was. I would get some of the new Hot Wheels™ cars before they were released and I would sell them to my school mates, at highly inflated prices because they were collecting them and they could get them before they came out. Downie: Yeah, hot demand for something nobody else had. Boy, you were doing it… Wagner: It was better, I made more money than the lemonade stand. I'll put it that way. Downie: Now of course, did you ever get into trouble for doing that either from Mattel or from the school because you were conducting business on school property? Wagner: Nope. Never got caught. So, okay, let's see. So, interests before brewing. While I was a lifelong musician, I started studying piano growing up in Chicago. When I think when I was six years old, I started taking piano lessons and played all the way through high school, had some incredible teachers and actually in high school I started playing some guitar and bass and started playing in some bands, some high school bands. And then, college I went to UC Santa Cruz. So, I was an English lit major and still played some music, with some friends and things. And then after college I moved back to Los Angeles and I was working in some restaurants and, you know, basically trying to figure out what to do and ended up meeting some other musicians at a party and we decided to form a band. And that was the beginning of the Balancing Act, which was the, I guess you'd say, the most successful band I was in. We ended up self-producing our first record and putting it out on our own label. So again, some, good entrepreneurial experience. Downie: So was this an LP? Wagner: It was an EP actually , an extended play. It was six songs I believe were on it. Just vinyl, this was right before CDs kind of became the new format. And, yeah, it was fun and we got some nice critical recognition and acclaim and, you know, played a lot in, in Southern California. And then, we actually got signed to I.R.S. records, which was a pretty cool record label at that time. And we ended up recording and releasing two albums for that label. Got to tour all over the US multiple times and every college town now I think in the US. (laughs) Those were our people. Downie: And so this was still as The Balancing Act? Wagner: Yes. Yep. And so, yeah, it was, it was a really great experience and it was four of us and we all wrote songs and sang. It was very much a collective and we had a lot of fun. Yeah, let's see. So, then I started, uh, I think that band, eventually we went our separate ways and I played in some other groups, a band in LA called the Bedshredders and another band called Walker Stories. I did some studio work and played, you know, played on recordings for other people and things like that. But I was kind of at that point thinking, okay, I was, I got married. I was not that keen to go back out on tour and on the road and do things like that. So, I was trying to think of what the next step in my career would be. And one of the guys in, actually I played with in both the Bedshredders and Walker Stories invited me over to do some homebrewing at his house. He was a homebrewer and I went over and did that and was immediately captivated by the process of brewing your own beer. I was already a beer fan and I mean, my touring days, you know, you'd always get, the band would get, a case of beer and I’d like try to get them to give us something, you know, a little out of the ordinary or something local. But there wasn't much choice in those days, but still enjoyed it. Downie: This would have been about what year? Wagner: This was the mid to late eighties, early nineties. Downie: So craft brewing is just starting to get a hold in places? Wagner: Yeah, you know, Sierra Nevada was around, but I think they were still really only California probably. Yeah, there were a few other things, but not much. So, let's see. So, yeah, I started homebrewing on my own ‘cause I wanted to do it more often and you know, really read up and studied as much as I could about it and brewed a lot and joined some Homebrew clubs in Los Angeles and really tried to learn as much as I could about it and do it in my spare time . And, as part of that journey, I wanted to, they were offering classes at (University of California) Davis in Northern California, extension classes on advanced home brewing and sensory evaluation of beer. And so I decided to make the trip up there one weekend to, you know, try to learn some more and check out the school up there. And so I went, I think on a Friday there was an advanced home brewing class that I went to and then on Saturday it was the sensory evaluation of beer class. And I look across the room and I see this long-haired guy and I go, ‘Wait a minute, that's my rock and roll landlord, Greg Koch.’ And it was funny, you know, I didn't, it was out of context and I think it took me a little while to figure out who it was and I'm like, ‘Oh yeah’, ‘cause we didn't know each other that well. We were acquaintances. Because he tells the story, he didn't know me that well ‘cause my band actually paid that rent on time. So, we rented music rehearsal space from his company. Downie: Now this was the LA location? Wagner: Yeah, downtown Los Angeles. Downie: There was a San Francisco location for a while. Wagner: Yeah. This was the downtown Los Angeles location. And so, you know, when we had the first break I went up and said hi and we started talking a little bit and realized we had a mutual interest in beer and craft beer and everything. And it was, it was cool. That as part of the sensory evaluation class, If you were a homebrewer, they said bring your beer and we'll taste it. And I had brought some of my beers and we tasted them and people liked them. Greg really liked them. Ironically, it was, you know, since we were such an anti-fruit beer brewery in the beginning, it was a peach ale that I had made, ‘cause I was actually, one of my side jobs when I was a musician, was working for a farmer who came down for the Santa Monica farmer's market and I would sell his stone fruits, peaches and stuff. And so I got some awesome peaches and I decided to make a beer out of it. So funny. Downie: So leading the way with fruit beer. Wagner: Yup. Yup. And so yeah, I think, you know, that's sort of me running into him there and drinking some beers together and stuff. You know, here this guy was a successful entrepreneur, and I was interested in getting into beer and we, you know, we started talking about maybe we should start our own brewery. I think we were both back in LA and we, you know, we did some home brews together and just kinda hung out together and started talking about things and seeing if we could see a way to do, you know, to start our brewery. So. Downie: Yeah. So Davis I think was in ‘94, ’93? Wagner: ’93 I think. I'm gonna say ‘93. Downie: I've got Greg’s textbooks from that. Wagner: Well we went back for some additional classes too. That might've been in ‘94, but I think that initial one was before that. Downie: So it really considering that Stone itself opened up in mid-year 1996... Wagner: Yeah. Downie: You worked on a pretty fast track to get Stone up and going. It seems like compared to what I'm seeing for some breweries now. Wagner: Yeah. I don't know. It felt like a pretty deliberate track to me ‘cause I actually, you know, in, in between there, I moved up to, had an opportunity to house sit for my brother and his soon to be wife up in Portland because they were taking the better part of a year off as a sabbatical. They both worked for Intel. They needed somebody to house sit for them. And so my wife Laura and I volunteered to go up and do that. And it, part of my thinking was, well, I'll find a job at a brewery up there, you know, get some hands-on experience and really make sure I, I enjoy the work and, you know, am as passionate about the work as I think I would be, you know. Yeah, so I think that was Spring of ‘94 that we moved up there and landed a job brewing for Pyramid shortly thereafter. Up in Kalama, Washington, you know, 30-minute commute North of Portland. And yeah, started, I mean I think I had two weeks of training and then they handed me the keys for the midnight night shift, the lone brewer in this pretty sizable plant at that point I was like, “Wow, this is happening pretty fast.’ But uh, Downie: How big was Pyramid? How many barrels do you remember? Wagner: I think they did about 90,000 barrels when I was there in ‘90. I was there through fall of ‘95, I guess. So, a little over a year, year and a half of it. It was great experience and I really loved, loved the work. You know, just the hands on of brewing and being part of a brewery like that. I had a lot of great mentors that I was able to learn a lot from . It was everything I had hoped it would be. In fact, I enjoyed it so much. I was happy to just keep working there. And eventually Greg got impatient like, ’Are we gonna do this or what?’ But I was like, ‘I don't know, I've enjoyed living in Portland.’ Downie: Yeah, it’s beautiful up there. Wagner: I’m enjoying working for a brewery, but you know, I realized ‘Yeah if we're going to do this, we need to do it.’ So, you know, so in some ways to me that seems like a longer timeline because I actually, you know, took the time to go get some hands-on experience and do that rather than just, ah, you know (inaudible). Downie: That was a very good deliberate move though to make sure that, you know, it wasn't just the activity of brewing but you could actually face the day-to-day work. Wagner: Yeah. Yup and it really helped me in, you know, shopping for our original equipment and putting the brewery together and how we wanted to do things and Pyramid had a pretty good focus on quality of their beer. And, you know, so that became one of our things at Stone too, was to, to create really consistent beers and beers that had decent shelf life. You know, the people would have the same experience every time they tried one. And that, that ended up being crucial for us because, you know, opening in 1996, that was kinda the beginning of the first shakeout in craft beer where a lot of people had rushed in who maybe didn't have brewing expertise and were looking to be quick buck and stuff. And there was a lot of issues with, you know, bad beer out there that wasn't consistent or had off flavors or different things. And so you know, I think that the time I spent at Pyramid really benefited us. The ability to pull off quality and consistency. So, because you know, when we first opened Stone and go out to try to sell our beer, I mean, Greg was the, you know, he was our lone salesman at the time. That's what I mean, he'd go out or it was all these, a lot of people who didn't want to take craft beer, they said, ‘No, we've done it’s a fad. You know , it's like the beer never tasted the same twice or you couldn't deliver it when we needed it. So we're not doing that anymore, you know?’ So that's what we were up against when we started the company. It was possibly the worst possible time to start it. Downie: Well, you sink or swim. Wagner: Yep, exactly. Downie: And so since you've been talking about your education, did you do any other education after opening Stone or were you just so busy with running Stone? Wagner: You know, before we had opened Stone, Greg and I would go to the craft brewers conference, the national conference, the annual conference. So, we would go to that every year. And as part of that, you know, obviously there there's a trade show, but they also do a lot of educational seminars and things like that. So, continued to take advantage of that. Even in the early days we would go to that and helped us keep up with what was happening in, you know, brewing techniques and science and equipment and stuff. Um, I'm trying to remember. I think I might have taken some other classes, but I think they might've been more finance- and accounting-focused because I had sort of assumed that hat in the brewery too, you know. It was interesting the dynamics when you start, at first I felt like all the pressure was on me, you know, to order the brewery equipment, get it installed, get it, get it working, get the beer to where I want it, you know, get the beer brewed and then all of a sudden all the pressure shifts to Greg. Right. It's like, ‘Well, here's all these kegs. You better go sell it.’ (Wagner and Downie laugh.) And to his credit, you know, he did it. But at that time, you know, maybe I was only brewing once a week or something. So, I took on the task of, you know, the invoices are coming in and collecting payments and paying our vendors and doing all that and just getting into the, you know, the accounting, finance end of it. And uh, never had really had experience doing that. But I kind of learned by doing and I realized I enjoyed being familiar with the numbers and understanding what was happening to the company, financially. So I really, you know, kind of had a… Downie: Somebody who got to watch those numbers. Wagner: Yes. Yup. It was important. Downie: So that does kind of answer down here in the Stone section. I did ask about your role in Stone's early years besides brewing. And of course, I have photographs from Greg's collection of all of you doing stuff. You know, building and you know, moving equipment and all that sort of thing. Wagner: Yeah. ‘Cause you know Greg had construction experience from building his rehearsal studio and that sort of stuff. So, he, he was very savvy with contractors and how to do that kind of stuff. So I focused more on, you know, figuring out the right brewery equipment for us and finding the best deal on that and getting it shipped. And he did a lot of the, you know, the construction stuff that we needed at the brewery, the trench drains, the different things. Downie: Was there ever a discussion between you and Greg about how the jobs were going to fall out or you just said, Greg, you've got the MBA, you've got , you know, and you just kind of naturally took that on and like you say, you were brewing once a week, so somebody had to deal with the invoicing, and all of the rest. Wagner: You know, there was always more than, you know, there was always too much to do. So it was, it was very much a chip in where you could ever, you could help type of situation, you know, whether it was deliver your keg to a customer who had run out over the weekend or something. You know, we both did a lot of that. You know, I would go out and do sales calls and things too, you know, to, to try to expand our, our impact. Yeah, it's very much a, you do whatever it takes type of thing. Downie: And Pizza Port was the first, in Solana Beach, was the first location to take a keg? Wagner: Yep. Yep. Downie: ‘Cause I've seen the plaque down there. Wagner: Yep. Yep. Greg, he tells a good story about that too. It gave us a very unrealistic view of the distribution business because they came and picked up the first keg ‘cause they wanted to be the first. We are like, ‘Oh this is easy. Everybody just comes to you and gets it.’ Right. Downie: Yeah. There you go. Wagner: That might've been the last time anybody did that. Downie: Other than maybe somebody picked up a keg for their own personal party, you know? Wagner: Yeah. Downie: You know you learn as you go along because that's really, there were so few models for a craft brewery, you know, a smaller brewery. You know, you can't take the models that work for AB (Anheuser Busch) or anybody else and apply them to you. It just doesn't work. Okay. So, um, we'll jump back up the list here. How, how, and why the name Stone Brewing. Oh good. You're laughing. Wagner: You can see the list of the names from the wheat beer that we did. We, we came up with a lot of names and we disagreed quite a bit about names, you know, I think, which was good. It kind of helped us make sure that we came up with something that we both thought was good and that usually it was better than something that only one of us thought was good. So , we went through a lot of lists of names and a lot of rejection of names that that didn't work for us. And, you know, I mean we came up on a deadline, right? We had called our corporation Koochenvagners kind of a play out our two names, but we're coming up to a deadline to, you know, we wanted to release a beer and we didn't have a name yet. And so we're feeling the pressure of that. And I think Greg came in with the name Stone one day. I think he might've had umlauts over it or something like that. (Laughs.) But, but there was something about it that I liked that it was just a simple and kind of classic and, not tied geographically to any place, you know, because we weren't sure we wanted that. We didn't, you know, there already was a San Diego Brewing Company, there already was a San Marcos Brewing Company. We kind of wanted to do something different. So, and I think also it stimulated a lot of kind of creative marketing ideas too. You know, the, you know, that as we thought of things that were made of stone and that the gargoyle kind of came out of that and our, you know, original tap handles were beach stones that we'd collect at the beach, which is probably illegal now, but we don't do it anymore. Yeah. It's funny because one of the (laughs) Downie: Probably the statute of limitations is out by now. Wagner: We started draft only, so we didn't have bottles, but one of the, the ideas that I came up with, you know, as we were thinking of slogans and stuff was, well Greg, our first one was “Welcome to the Stone Age”, you know, which is Greg's, which is kind of clever. I like that one. But I came up with one “Leave no stone unturned”, which we never actually used that. But now it's like a, you know we’re in a lawsuit with Keystone (MillerCoors) about them shortening their name to Stone. Now, they use that actually, which is funny. Downie: Oh, okay. Wagner: (Laughs.) A little side humor here. Downie: You know, that's an old, old, old phrase, you know, whoever decides to trademark gets it. And so you kind of said how the gargoyle because it's made of stone, became the representation. And also there's certainly text on the early bottles explaining, you know, the gargoyle protecting from bad taste and sort of… Wagner: I think we kinda felt like we needed to explain it ‘cause people like thought that it was the devil or something. I don't know what gargoyles actually do. You know, they protect them in their own churches. They protect against evil spirits. And so, you know, Greg and his creative mind kind of turned it into this protecting our beer from the evil spirits of cheap adjuncts and materials. Downie: That's a very good way explain it. Wagner: Yeah. Downie: And to eradicate the devil situation. Um, so, and you kind of talked about dealing with distribution issues. What about dealing with suppliers? I mean , since you were a smaller brewery again. Yeah. And was there much locally available or did you have to go far afield? Wagner: We had to go pretty far afield for, you know, no matter what it was brewing equipment, you know, raw materials. Obviously hops mostly came from, you know, Washington and Oregon. Malted barley came from, you know, Canada or the upper plains States in the US and, uh, even our water came from Colorado probably. (Laughter) Right. Yeah. You know, there were, there were people locally who could do good tradeswork and stuff. You know, we had, we had wonderful, uh, stainless steel welders and plumbers and you know, just great contractors and people to work with here locally in San Diego. But… Downie: But the actual supplies were another story… Wagner: Yep. That comes from the places that, you know, that's, that's tricky when you're not ordering a lot and you're trying to, you know, protect cashflow and things that you could, you know, you can find yourself short sometimes and critical moments. But you know, that's one of the, what are the cool things about craft beer that we found out very early on is that people are very supportive. And fellow brewers, you know, obviously Pizza Port, you know, Gina and Vince (Marsaglia). I mean they had their own brewery and their own place and still they wanted to serve our beer, you know, help us out and just, just passionate about good craft beer. So that's willingness to help and to, you know, sell somebody a bag of malt if they come up short or some hops or things like that. It still carries on to this day, which is pretty incredible. A lot of businesses like that. Downie: Well, I mean, I have the articles, copy of the articles of incorporation for the San Diego Brewers Guild from 1996 with Greg’s signature on it. And so that shows that, you know, early on there was this established environment of work together and cooperate or it's not going to happen, which I think was just really essential to the success of San Diego craft brewing. Wagner: Definitely. Downie: ‘Cause I get, I get that question from people elsewhere. It's like, ‘Well, why San Diego?’ And it's like, well I know that they've always collaborated with each other. When you don't fight with each other, you can spend your energy doing better things, hopefully surviving, you know. And so, how has your role changed over the years? You know, I mean early on you were, you know, were of course doing the brewing, but when I talked to you one time I asked when was the last time you brewed and you just kind of went, ‘I don’t know.’ Wagner: I am actually brewing tomorrow. Downie: Oh good! Good for you. Wagner: Probably ‘cause you asked me that. I'm like, gosh, it's been too long. Downie: You have to get back to your roots once in a while. Wagner: Yeah, definitely. Um, so let's see. How has my role changed? Yeah, I mean like in the, you know, in the early years, besides doing , I mean for the first six months or so, I did all the production work, you know, the brewing, the filtering, the packaging, everything, and then, you know, gradually was able to get some part time help and, you know, because I ended up managing the distribution part of things, you know, just the, the logistics and the managing the drivers and the warehouse. You know, as we started to add people. At first I think we just had drivers pull the beer and load their own truck and um, you know, manage the flow of invoicing and payments, and then accounts receivable, accounts payable, Human Resources. And to start doing that, you know, I was doing payroll and everything. So kind of doing all the operations and back office stuff. While Greg was out selling and he, you know, continued to create marketing momentum for us with all of his great ideas and things. Downie: So at what point did you formalize the HR and like release doing the payroll and things like that? Wagner: Yeah, I mean, we didn't, yeah, we probably waited too long to get some professional HR help. Yeah, at one point, I promoted my assistant, I had a kind of an assistant who was, you know, sort of an office manager type person to doing payroll and of some of the basic HR filings and stuff like that. But, yeah, I'm trying to remember how that transitioned exactly. But gradually we, we realized, you know, that it's a, it's something that needs to be done by the book and you know, somebody needs to pay attention to it very carefully. And so, we started hiring professional folks to do that. Downie: There are so many facets besides the brewing that, you know, really have legal ramifications if nothing else. And then, you know, employee climate. Wagner: Yup. Downie: Do you want to make sure you're doing things right and your employees are happy? Wagner: Yeah, absolutely. Wagner: So, yeah. Um, yeah, that's, that's one area that's gotten a lot more complex and difficult in the 22 years that we've been in business too. You know, plus as your company grows there, you know, a lot more rules and laws come into play. Right. When you're smaller kind of, you know, when you're under 10 people, it's pretty simple. When you're between 10 and 50, it gets more complex once you’re over 50 that it's, you know, you get the whole rule book thrown it. It was a lot to keep track of and lots to make sure you're doing right. Downie: Well, something I've gotten a sense of from just the photographs I was going through to scan for the documentary (The Beer Jesus from America), it seemed like there were a lot of events for employees. You know, either charity events like Dye Your Head Red. Um, there was also something where people had green hair at one point? Wagner: Well, we were doing it, I don't know if we did it every year, but at one point we're doing it every other year and we would change the color each time we did it. So, it would kind of rotate between blue, red, or green. Downie: Okay. I haven't seen any blue hair photographs, but there's a very distinct one where Lee Chase was walking around and obviously they had had to bleach his hair white in order to dye it green and it was up in what I call ‘the Smurf comb up’, you know, and it's like, wow, that's, that's really throwing himself into the green hair thing. But it seemed like it was something that the employees could get into and have some fun. But you also had a charity element. So, did Stone have a charity element from the beginning? Wagner: Uh, from our, yeah, I mean, because, you know, we, we realized early on, it's one of the best ways to get your brewery name out there is that, you know, California law allows brewers to donate beer to charities for their events. And so , um, you know, that became our grassroots marketing. We didn't have money to spend on marketing. You know, we're not buying advertising or anything. We still don't do that. But it was a low-cost way to get out there and tell our story, you know. So, we would, um, donate beer to these events and then we'd go and set up a booth and you know, pour the beer and tell people about us. And, uh, you know, it was just word of mouth that, you know, it's great, ‘cause people get sample the beer and taste and decide if they like it, but also they see you're out supporting the community in supporting nonprofits and things. So it was really an effective way to, to market and grow our company. And it's, you know, just sort of something Greg and I like to do anyways, you know, be involved in. Downie: Yeah. And it certainly has established a model where you see a lot of that going on now with even the very tiny, tiny craft breweries, which is wonderful. You know, charities need all the help they can get. Wagner: So that was the sort of the turning point was, I guess it was our second anniversary ‘cause our first anniversary we just had it within the brewery, you know, our licensed operations area. ‘Cause it was, you know, pretty small and we didn't charge admission or anything. And, but then the second year we, you know, we wanted to make it bigger and have more people and so to do, in order to do that you have to partner with a charity. They have to pull a special one-day license to allow you to, we wanted to take over a little bit in the parking lot to have our anniversary. And so that's kind of what started it. You know, we went to the, to the mayor I think in San Marcos and said, you know, we need a charity partner that we can partner with to do this anniversary party that we want to do. They said, ‘You know, Boys and Girls Club San Marcos is best organization in town. So why don’t you talk to them?’ That's, you know, they ended up getting me on the Board of Directors for 10 years there. A couple, couple terms as chair of the board and we continue to support them because it's a, you know, great organization that's doing wonderful work for them, the youth of San Marcos. Downie: So there are so many, how do you spread yourself and how do you choose between all of these very deserving causes? Wagner: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does get difficult. And so we're kind of in the mode now or, I mean the good news is that there's a lot more brewers in town too. So, it's like if we say we, you know, we're already supporting the maximum number of organizations we can right now. We can't take on another one, but here's some other great local brewers that would likely be happy to support them. Downie: Again, part of that collaboration and directing people, you know, whenever I worked with somebody and I can't give them what they need in the way of research help, I try to get them somewhere where they can. I mean that's just, I think that's just good humanity if nothing else. So excellent. Wagner: But that was kind of where it turned from, you know, us supporting the nonprofits by donating beer to them, to us realizing, you know, it's our anniversary, but it became more popular and we partnered with a charity that we could charge admission and raise this money and then raise our own funds to give to the, the nonprofits that's become, you know, really the way we create most of the funding that we do for local non-profits. Downie: I’m a member of Society of Barley Engineers they’re very tolerant of my dumb questions about brewing and they're always real pleased to be involved with, you know, homebrewing the sodas that you know are good for the designated driver. Wagner: They always do some really crazy stuff too. It fits in well. Downie: With the 21st Anniversary, I was walking around and I saw a young, obviously quite pregnant young woman and her three friends were all drinking. So obviously she was the designated driver and I said, ‘Do you realize that there is non-alcoholic soda here that you can have?’ ‘Cause she wasn't drinking. It's like kind of, you need to stay hydrated. She was like, ‘Oh great!’ You know, so she was able to get something. Wagner: They always have some amazing ones too. I always try them when I’m there. They're just… Downie: Yeah, they pride themselves on, you know, coming up with something new and different. And a couple of the Barley Engineers now have collaborated with Stone on beers. Chris Banker with Xocovesa and Corey Magers with Mojay. I don't know of any others, but then I haven't really surveyed the home brewing clubs to see who else has done this. Wagner: I’m not sure who else from the Society of Barley Engineers. Downie: It's on my list of, you know, further research. Wagner: There's definitely some other, there's some folks from QUAFF (Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity). I think some other ones too, that uh, won the homebrewers contest that we do. So yeah. Downie: When did you start the homebrewers contest, do you remember? Wagner: Gosh, that's a good question. Downie: I know it's hard to ask for dates. Wagner: Well, it wasn't until we had the bistro (located in Escondido) open ‘cause we would do it at the bistro. So, it was either 2007 probably would have been the earliest . But yeah, it certainly wasn't long after that, I can look back at the beers probably and find out when we released the first beer, which is probably the Ken Schmidt, the coconut porter. Downie: I think somebody who said… Wagner: ‘Maui Ken’ Schmidt. So, the original that I can find that out. Downie: Yeah. I have people ask me things like that. You know, when was the first this, when was the first that I'm like… Wagner: It’s not in here is it (referring to Stone timeline from their website)? Downie: I don't remember how far. I think that ends about 2006 on most of its information. Wagner: So the AleSmith/Mikkeller/Stone (collaboration beer)/ Let's see. We did some with brewers that says the Ken Schmidt one was 2009. Downie: Okay. Wagner: That was the winner of the Stone Age. That might've been the first one. Downie: Okay. Oh, of course they'll remember. Wagner: ‘Cause then we did the 2010 was with Kelsey McNair, I think he was in QUAFF. Right. And he started North Park. Downie: Yeah. He would've been in QUAFF. Wagner: North Park Beer Company that says. Yeah. Downie: Okay. I see. Good thing I brought that list. So, when you started Stone, you started with the IPA? Wagner: Well, Stone Pale Ale. Downie: Stone Pale Ale, okay. Downie: And then where did Arrogant Bastard fall in, into your first beers? Wagner: So the Stone Pale Ale was the first beer, released in July of ‘96 and then our second beer was, we did a, a seasonal called Winter Stone that I think was probably released in November of that year. And then we ended up keeping it around ‘cause we had a few customers who really liked it on draft. And so we changed the name to Stone Smoked Porter and kept brewing it. So that was our second beer. Downie: Stone Smoked Porter ‘cause I've seen those bottles and I think I've seen a Winter Stone. Wagner: Yeah. And now I'm talking about the year-round beers. So there may have been a couple of other ones in there. But then the Stone IPA was released on our first anniversary, so July of ‘97. So that was our third full time beer. And then I don't think Arrogant Bastard came out until 1998, till November of ‘98 I believe. We had the other year-round beers because we started doing some bottling then. Yeah. Just keeping up with what we had. Downie: So it was late ‘98 when you started bottling? Wagner: (paper rustling) I believe so. Okay. I'll confirm that . I think it's pretty sure it's (November of ’98). Downie: Well since when I asked you about that date code on the bottles and you made the very good point that that was probably when the bottles were printed, not when they were filled. I was like, ‘Oh yeah, that would make perfectly good sense.’ Okay. Now I don't even have to worry about the dates on the bottle anymore because that can be from any time really. That was, there went, a myth ‘cause I saw Chris Cochran, just after that and I said, well Chris, because Chris and Greg and both said, we think this is when the bottles were when beers were brewed. I said, well, Steve says, because you bought bottles and they sat in the warehouse, he goes, Oh, okay. So you know, busting that mythology there, which brings me to… Wagner: Yeah we used to put the date on the case boxes at first. You know, we didn't have the technology to put it actually on the bottle. It was, we were doing these little (inaudible) bottling machines. Downie: Yeah, yeah. You're, you're running lean and mean. You've got to get it out there. Yeah. But that does bring me to another mythology which, how Arrogant Bastard was born. You know, the higher hopped beer. I have heard from people who of course want to speak with some authority, but you would be the authority, that you accidentally double hopped a batch of beer. Wagner: I did. That is absolutely true. I think everybody agrees on that. You know, we were working out of Greg's condo in Solana Beach to, you know, start the business basically. And I was doing a lot of research on equipment and then I was also doing some pilot batches to, you know, work on some, some recipes for some of the beers. And we had, I had my own kind of homebrew equipment, then we invested in a nicer system that a little bit more capacity, I think it was like a 10-gallon system or something like that. It's, so it was one of the first brews I was doing on that system. And so all my calculations changed on volume bitterness units and all that stuff. I screwed up the first calculation and I way over hopped this beer. (Laughs) Downie: But then you didn't release the results of this mistake until a couple of years after being established. Wagner: We have differing opinions, Greg and I recall it differently because we definitely know I screwed it up. The question was, I think I thought I realized it right at the time and I just wanted to dump the batch, you know, Greg said, to my memory Greg said, ‘No, let's, you know, you've already made it. We might as well let it ferment and then we’ll bottle it. And then Greg's memory of it is that I didn't realize it until we tasted the bottles and then it's like, ‘Ah, geez, I messed this one up.’ and Greg is ‘This is the best beer I've ever had.’ Downie: Okay. Well it's nice to actually be able to say definitively that part that, that mythology is true. And so what is your role in developing new beers now? Wagner: You know what, I don't have a huge role other than, you know, tasting the new stuff that we come up with. Maybe making some comments here and there if there's things that I don't think are quite, quite what we're looking for, but, we have a super creative team and I'm happy to enjoy the fruits of their labors. We've got an innovation team with three guys, Chris Ketchum and Jeremy Moynier and Steve Gonzalez. They're just making unbelievable beers. It used to be such pressure for me to come up with a new beer as well, you know, doing all this other work in my day job and all this stuff. It's kind of nice when we got to that point where other people can contribute. You know, Lee Chase was the first who helped out with that. And then Mitch Steele came on board. You really embrace that, which is nice for me because… Downie: Speaking of Mitch (Steele) and Lee (Chase), did they start as volunteers or did they start as paid employees? Wagner: Yeah, I don't think we had volunteers that I recall. Lee started part time ‘cause he was, you know, he had been working at Brewers Union down in San Diego, the brew-your-own place and then I think he was working at White Labs too, maybe even doing some stuff for Pizza Port. But yeah, we hired him part time to help me with the brewing and kegging stuff ‘cause I just couldn't keep up with everything. Then eventually we got to the point where we're able to make him full time. Downie: And then he went out on his own. Wagner: Great job of growing with us for a long time. He was with us for 10 years or something. Super creative guy. Yeah, doing great on his own. Downie: Yeah. And he's a, he's another hard person to reach. But I am persistent. If nothing else, it does pay off eventually. What happened to your early brewing equipment? Wagner: Uh, my earliest brewing equipment, I actually have it. Yeah, do you want it? my musician friend, The guy Doug Freeman, still mine who invited me to homebrew with we, uh, I have that equipment actually. Downie: Yeah. If it's not as big as this (holds arms out indicating the current brewhouse), Wagner: it’s a 5 gallon. Downie: I would love to have it. That would be wonderful. Oh, I would love to have it because that's one thing I don't have is you know, equipment because that's kind of a space factor. But the, where it all started very first time, that would be…Oh, that would be so incredible, that that would just be so much fun. Wagner: Alright, it would make my wife very happy. Downie: And I'm sure, yeah. That's what I get from a number of the wives of brewers. It's like, ‘Oh, you'll only take that much?’ Oh, I can only take so much and I don't want anything that is not San Diego related. I'm sorry ‘cause I have women going, ‘He's got a hundred growlers and they're from all over the country.’ The boss has told me to stop collecting growlers. I’ve got about 45 so far. But the artwork on them is so incredible, you know, I mean I think just everything that you do to represent yourself says so much. Wagner: Yeah. Downie: It's like Karl Strauss and Ballast Point and they've changed their logos. They've changed their stories a little bit. So yeah, I just, I just love to collect real stuff because then people get really excited when they see, you know, a piece of paper they don't get too excited about, but when they see the real thing, they just get really excited and happy. Um, so, just if you care to talk about this, a couple of lows and highs in the progression of Stone, things that have happened that… Wagner: Let's see, I mean, you know, some of the highs were, let's see, in the early days, that'd be just some big wins on getting our beer to some places that, you know. I remember one of them, because one of the reasons I used to come down here was because my brothers were in school at UCSD and I was, I was already out of college and I was living in Los Angeles, but I'd come down and visit them and we'd go to the Del Mar racetrack and stuff. You know, it was just fun thing to do on the weekends and you know, so when we first got Stone Pale Ale on tap at the Del Mar racetrack, I thought, ‘Wow, it doesn't get any better than this.’ Yes, they're just little things. but just those little incremental things, sometimes... Downie: Well, they may feel a little but, that was really a big thing getting, getting out there with so many different people are going to be tasting your beer. That's huge. Wagner: So, yeah, that's what I remember I mean, you know, the first time that we'd started shipping our beer to another state, to Arizona. That's pretty big deal. Downie: Yeah. Especially Arizona was early. I mean, they passed Prohibition four or five years before the nation did. Yeah. That they were one of the reasons San Diego Brewing failed, or Mission Brewing, failed pre-prohibition because Mission was making Hopski which was a near beer and Arizona wouldn't even allow that in the state. And that's what actually caused Mission to shutter. Oh, I've got all kinds of weird little historical trivia. Wagner: Yeah. Let's see. The low points. I don't know. The, you know, the losing good people is always tough, you know? Um, what do you feel like you've let them down or something and not been able to provide the career path or the compensation they need or whatever it is. You know, sometimes that hits you hard when it's somebody who, really, really valuable member of the team that moves on from whatever is, it could be personal reasons, can be professional reasons. Um, those were some low points. You know, obviously Greg talks about when we got turned down by the distributor, you know? Yeah, yeah. That was a pretty big setback. Yeah. Downie: That, that would be terrifying. Wagner: Yeah. I dunno for me though, it was just, it just made me mad and it's like, alright, let me just, we're going to beat these guys at their own game. That we’re going to take action in those situations. But yeah, you know, it's, you don't really know how long you have to make a success of it, you know, and how long can the negative cashflow go on before decides just not gonna make it, you know, and we were close to that point. So it was definitely an inflection point. Downie: Do you have a year that you realize you had gone into the black? Wagner: I think it was about, I think it was probably ‘99 was probably our first profitable year. I can look back and I might still have some of those. Downie: Yeah, well that's not, that's not because Peter (Zien) at AleSmith says it was six, six years or so before he actually… Wagner: I think it was the first full year with Arrogant Bastard. ‘Cause I think that kind of took off pretty quickly for us. It really changed things around. You know, because we had just been trying to grow in San Diego and you know, do it the hard way. Right. Just hand to hand. So, it was a slow road, but that kind of gave a us a big shot in the arm. Downie: Well, a name like that, you know, I mean if nothing else, people are gonna buy it just because of the name. Yeah. Okay. Well then, I know we've talked about this before, but for the record, if Stone hadn't worked out, you know, I mean you did have a time where you came close, I'm sure. What would have been your plan B? Wagner: Yeah, I think the plan B, I mean I definitely wanted to stay involved in craft beer, you know, enjoyed brewing and a lot of aspects for it. So, you know, I thought about that since we talked a little bit last time. I think it probably would have been moving back up to Portland because both of my brothers and their families lived up there. Uh, looking for a job with a brewery up there. Really enjoyed living up there too. Downie: Yeah. Well I liked your, your response last time you said, ‘I didn't think about it.’ It wasn’t not going to happen. Wagner: I thought about it since you said like ‘What would we have done?’ Probably, you know… Downie: So, well it seems like you were so busy you didn't have time to think about what that plan B would be. Wagner: It’s really true, I think we're so focused on just a… Downie: Yeah, if you don't admit that there could be failure, you know, you haven't left yourself anywhere, but to go, but keep going, I guess. Wagner: I feel like we just put our heads down and just kept working with it. Downie: You obviously, you obviously did, I mean some of the photos from the buildout on Mata Way. I mean, obviously you're just, you're asleep in your chair. You just kept going until you couldn't go anymore. But you know that that hard work has paid off here 22 years later, 23 years later. So do you have any words of wisdom for future brewers? Wagner: Wow. Yeah, you know I used to say all those things like ‘chase your dreams’ and ‘if it's your passion’ stuff but the way the industry is now, I'm not sure. (Laughs) I'm not sure the best advice to give somebody, but, yeah, I mean, if you're, I would say if it's, if you're willing to commit everything to it and work harder than you've ever worked and you know, and you should only do that because you really love it. Then, yeah. I mean it's, it's great to do something that you love. You know, I think, I think you, you know, you have to have realistic financial expectations these days. You know, people aren’t going to grow into a $1 billion company probably at this point, you know, but, uh, but if you are passionate about it and you can find a lifestyle that works for you with the, you know, with that sort of employment or a job, I think it's, there's something to be said for it. Downie: Yeah. And Stone has certainly given rise to a lot of other brewers who have gained experience here and then gone out and been successful. Wagner: So it's not just us, it's the other brewers that had been around for a while too. Downie: Yeah. I tried to develop a genealogy, kind of you know, who had worked where with who and I gave up. It was such an inner tangled, shifting, people popping back and forth. I said, no, somebody else can do that. I'll just track the breweries because they're a fixed space and I can deal with it. Wagner: That, um, that would be a very complicated… Downie: What was the, I'm sure you and Greg have probably talked about where does Stone go from here, you know, as far as both expansion and what, when you both say ‘we want to step back, we want to retire’. Or whatever. Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's something we're, we're, you know, we're actively trying to figure out every day pretty much. It's how can we leave the company independent and you know, still a going enterprise, you know, when we're not involved anymore, can't be involved anymore. So that's still our goal. You know, we want to leave a company that has the ability to go its own way and not be told what to do. Uh, you know, be run by the people who work here. Downie: And hopefully hold to your founding principles of, you know, the quality, consistency... Wagner: Yeah. Downie: No paid advertising, you know, just good, good culture for people to work at and, and, and all of those. I mean, it seems like you've developed a very good, strong core of principles that have really served Stone well. Wagner: Yup. Downie: Hopefully they will remain. Wagner: Yeah. You know, we're, we're trying to figure that out. It doesn't seem like it'll be a family business at this point. You know, my sons are still a little young, not even sure if that something they'd be interested in. You know, Greg doesn't have any kids or anything, so it's not, it's not going to be like a family business that's passed on generation to generation probably. So, yeah. Downie: Well, have your children ever come in and like work for the summer helping out? Wagner: My youngest son was a host at the restaurant this summer. Downie: Okay. I'm never sure, I'm never sure if that's really a good insight into the world of, you know, the food and beverage business. Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. People are not always that pleasant. It was good for him because he needed to come out socially a little bit. So, you know, you're having to deal with strangers and be nice to them and make them happy. That's a good thing. Downie: Yeah, that's, it certainly it makes you appreciate what service staff go through. Wagner: Yup. Downie: If you work a little bit of it yourself, it's a very different world for them on the other side. And are there any styles of beer you have not tried? You know , I mean, it seems like there was a real explosion of beer styles for a while. Now, you know, the Brut IPA is the most recent thing I've heard of, but are there other styles that you have heard of that you haven't tried or other styles that you see Stone maybe experimenting with or at least investigating? Wagner: Uh, let's see. I'm sure there's styles that I haven't tried, but they're, they're probably more the historical, obscure type ones that, you know, maybe nobody’s brewing anymore or has tried to brew in a long time. Downie: They're not being made for a reason. Wagner: That’s right, most of them, most of them are not accepted styles. That'd be both, you know, between being a judge at GABF probably judged all the categories, the hundred or whatever there are, including the malt liquor category. Sometimes you have to pay your price. I mean, as far as places we’re looking or, I mean, you know, one of the nice things is having a brewery in Berlin now that sort of opened up a whole new range of things we can do there, you know, as it relates to more traditional styles, more traditional European styles and things. So, it's kinda fun to experiment with those, you know, doing the Berlinerweisse and doing some different Pilsners and lagers and things like that. So, yeah, I dunno, there's nothing we'd rule out, you know, I mean, there's such a lot of, uh, innovation going on with hop varieties and stuff that's really exciting to us. So, obviously we're doing a lot of different IPAs using those, you know, testing new hop varieties for the growers and things. Uh, let's see. Yeah, I don't know. Downie: Well, there's, there's still lots, still lots out there available to experiment. Wagner: You know, the ability to create new flavors and beers is pretty much limitless, I think. So we still want to be leading that charge for sure. Downie: But never giving up on your stable, the stable core beers. Wagner: Yeah. You still have to sell beer too. Downie: But somebody was bemoaning the oaken, the Oaked Arrogant Bastard and how much he missed that. And that was I just like ‘Never had it, can’t say.’ Wagner: The beautiful thing is we, you know, we reserve the right to bring back any beer at any time if we want to. Pretty much any of them we could brew again and we probably will at some point just for fun. Downie: Yeah. As long as those particular hops and all are still available. Wagner: Yeah. The Stone Pale Ale, although somebody told me, I was talking to Jeremy or somebody who told me something. They said that some of the growers are starting to plant the Ahtanum hop again. I guess, which is interesting. So I have to keep posted on that, we might have to do a throw back version of the Stone Pale Ale. Downie: What was old is new again. Wagner: Yeah, exactly. Downie: Well, is there anything that you would like to contribute to this history that we haven't touched on? Wagner: I'll have to think of that a little bit if I could get a second swing at it. But, no, I just think it's an amazing story of how San Diego ended up being this epicenter of it, you know, Capital of Craft™ and just, uh, you know, my best memories are just the wonderful people in this industry. You know, I consider many of them friends, just really good people who you know really pull together and help each other out. And I just thought that's something that we can keep going, you know, as it gets more competitive and things like that. ‘Cause it's, it's a pretty special place to be. Downie: Yes, exactly. Yeah I told Jen (Jennifer Fabbi, Dean of the CSUSM Library) , I said, if, if this was a combative industry, I would have come back to you and said, no, we do not want to get involved. Yeah. But I said, everybody has been collaborative and sharing and open and enthusiastic, which has really made developing the Brewchive® a joy because, I think there's, I don't know if the stars aligned right for San Diego or what, but it does seems like it's a really, there's something about this area and the people in it that has just created a very good place for the craft beer industry to be successful and be collaborative. Wagner: Yeah. And I think if there's one, one thing in particular that Stone did to make that happen was to take our beers outside of San Diego, you know, and probably the first ones to get any sort of serious distribution outside of Southern California to attract attention for, you know, Arrogant Bastard and then Stone IPA and some of those beers that, you know, I mean obviously there's a lot of tourism and military stuff for the word would spread about San Diego breweries, but we actually got the beer out there to the East Coast and other places where people, helped people realize, wow, there's something going on in San Diego. Downie: Yeah. And somebody sampling it here, they may not have any pull where when they go home to get the beer brought in. So yeah, you have to kind of push it to a receptive community. Wagner: You have to convince the distributor that you know that it will succeed or that there's people that would, Downie: And so now there Stone brewing, Stone has a distributorship. Um, I know Greg's got like the nut butter thing going on. (Wagner laughs) It seems like there's becoming a many-headed Hydra, not in a negative way. Wagner: That’s not a Stone thing (nut butter) though , that's, you know, he's got a couple other things he's involved in, you know, whether it's the, yeah, the nut butter or the wine thing, there are some other breweries and things. And I've got a little bit of that too with some of the brewers that I help out. But, yeah, I don't know. I think, you know, our three big pillars are obviously the brewery is the big one and continue to make beer that people want to buy and the challenges and the distribution. It's just a key strategic thing for us that allows us to control our brand and our sales in our home market. That's something that we'll always have that, you know, no matter how rough it gets out there and other parts of the country and stuff, we feel confident that we can, you know, always have strong sales here in Southern California. And then, uh, the hospitality is basically our marketing. You know, we don't invest a lot in advertising or those sort of traditional things for us. It's creating a good experience where people come to your place and you know, they leave and the next day they go to the store, they want to buy a six pack of Stone because they have these fond memories, you know. So far it’s worked. Will it continue to work? We’ll have to see. Downie: Well, sounds like it will. Well, I will end the interview here. I want to thank you so very much, Steve. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wagner, Steve. Interview October 24, 2018. Description An account of the resource Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24.mp3 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-24 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steve Wagner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Stone Brewing Company (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County University of California, Davis Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Evanston (Ill.) California -- Santa Cruz County -- Santa Cruz Los Angeles (Calif.) Portland (Or.) San Marcos (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) 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Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wagner, Steve. Interview transcript, October 24. 2018. Description An account of the resource Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steve Wagner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-24 Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Stone Brewing Company (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County University of California, Davis Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Evanston (Ill.) California -- Santa Cruz County -- Santa Cruz Los Angeles (Calif). Portland (Or.) San Marcos (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p class="p2"><a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en." target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a></p> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_transcript Brewchive(r) Community history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/71c8b4f9523f7776b3f38bb8961109e4.pdf 7d8200db0e9bea2a86b937c5c65a7c28 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wheeler, Lucy. Interview transcript, April 28, 2023. Description An account of the resource Lucy Wheeler discusses college, photojournalism, and San Diego agriculture, specifically the county's para-farms and family farms. Prior to attending Palomar College to study photography, she did street photography with the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce for several years. Gender roles and assumptions about age are also addressed. Additionally, Wheeler also contemplates the current state of American agriculture and potential prosperity, oral history, and her "gift of gab." This interview was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lucy Wheeler Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tanis Brown Charlie Colladay Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-28 Subject The topic of the resource Adult students Education, Higher Family farms -- California Oral history Photography Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Lucy Wheeler License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-045 Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Tanis Brown Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lucy Wheeler OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. photojournalism;education;college;administration;agriculture;gender OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Wheeler, Lucy. Interview, April 28, 2023. SC027-045 00:39:22 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Family farms--California ; Photography ; Adult students ; Education, Higher ; Oral history photojournalism ; education ; college ; administration ; agriculture ; gender Lucy Wheeler Tanis Brown mp4 WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2d8c14513d98ce9e8b8309f763c8fe46.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Interview of Lucy Wheeler by Tanis Brown and Charlie Colladay, April 28, 2023. Interview conducted at San Marcos Historical Society. 0 97 Post-retirement, education, and the gift of gab Wheeler discusses moving to San Marcos after retirement at the age of 80 and discovering photography through classes at Palomar College. Wheeler also touches on what she did before retirement, and how she discovered her “gift of gab,” especially for interviewing others, through going to back to school at Nazarene College. Palomar College ; Nazarene College ; photography 0 417 Photography Wheeler discusses in more detail her coursework in photography and her return to college which she illuminates through an encounter at a skate park. Wheeler also discusses the art of interviewing in further detail, and recounts a lesson she learned along those lines from a photography class. photography ; interviewing ; skate parks ; Sam Hodgins 0 822 Connecting the dots Wheeler discusses her concept behind her business card which states, “Connecting the dots,” and idea that originated from a man who worked with dementia patients and helped them connect the dots to their pasts. dementia ; memory 0 978 Technology, the pandemic, and Wheeler’s past Wheeler discusses her work for a medical laboratory in 1965, and how she learned to view and love technology as a tool. Wheeler ties those lessons to what carried her through the pandemic. Sperry Rand ; Control Data ; Covid-19 pandemic 0 1218 San Diego County’s para-farms and family farms Wheeler recounts being raised on a farm and San Diego County’s farming conditions. Wheeler outlines where her interest in documenting local farms arose during the pandemic, and discusses some of the para-farms’ farmers that she’s interviewed. para-farms ; family farms ; Yasukochi Farm ; Neil Nagata ; Rodriguez Farm ; Joe Rodriguez ; Susan Cupaiuolo ; Primavera Orchard ; cherimoya farming ; Covid-19 pandemic ; San Diego Food System Alliance 0 1801 Oral history Wheeler discusses the insights she’s learned about oral history and conducting a successful interview. oral history ; research 0 1947 Next projects Wheeler elaborates on her plans to expand her oral history work to look towards the future of San Diego farming, her “energy budget,” and her priorities for her future. Wheeler wraps up by discussing what she has learned about using her “gift of gab.” San Diego Food Alliance ; future of farming 0 oral history Lucy Wheeler discusses college, photojournalism, and San Diego agriculture, specifically the county's para-farms and family farms. Prior to attending Palomar College to study photography, she did street photography with the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce for several years. Gender roles and assumptions about age are also addressed. Additionally, Wheeler also contemplates the current state of American agriculture and potential prosperity, oral history, and her "gift of gab." NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:01:37.000 Okay. Good morning. This is April 28th, 2023. My name is Tanis Brown. I’m being assisted by Charlie Colladay on the camera this morning, and we are part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Lucy Wheeler is not only a member of our cohort, but she has also agreed to be an interviewee. So, we are very thankful, Lucy, that you’re willing to speak with us today. And I met you about a year ago when you stopped by the San Marcos Historical Society and brought some pictures of a famous artist from San Marcos. His name is Ted Wade. And you started to telling me about your experiences once you moved to San Marcos. And you handed me a little card introducing yourself. It said “Connecting the dots” which just was so intriguing to me. And then we had an exchange, and you were enthralled by getting involved with the Oral History Project. So, I’d like you to talk to our audience about how you got interested in conducting oral histories way before our project and some of the things that you’ve done since you came to San Marcos. 00:01:37.000 --> 00:03:42.000 Thank you so much for having me. It’s my pleasure to have been part of this program. The way I got started was I believe that everyone has been given a gift and thank goodness they’re not all the same because it brings different pictures to a project. And my gift, I think, was a gift of gab. And in this, back in the 1900s, 1930s, women weren’t supposed to do all this exploring and curiosity things. So, I kind of put a lid on that gift of gab and I prattled day and night. It took me a good number of years before I realized that I did have a voice, and once I found it and what I really wanted to say, I prattled less and listened more. And this is kind of how it evolved. And when I came to San Marcos, I had just retired at 80, and I thought I’ve carried this camera around with me all over. I’m going to go back and take better pictures. The first assumption from probably my classmates, but certainly people that I was photographing, was she must be coming back to take better pictures of her great-grandchildren. And that wasn’t the case. The case was to take better pictures and as I began to do that, I began to shut up and listen more and look more. And through this process—and I would like to say that it is not a matter of age, of when we discover what that gift is. It could start back in our 40s. It could—the 60s. Mine happened to be after I was 80 when I went back to school. 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:45.000 And where did you go to school, Lucy? 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:50.000 I have a degree in Business Administration from University of Minnesota. 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:51.000 Okay. 00:03:51.000 --> 00:05:26.000 And through an evolutionary process, I worked as a management consultant for Fortune 500 companies, and I’ve been in all 50 states and from the North Pole to the South Pole. I lived in Japan a couple of years. And through all of this, I’d had this mantra of “just keep moving.” Then I began to really listen and see that there’s stories. Everybody has a story. Everybody has characteristics and traits that they’d like to look for. And I’ve discovered that mine is actually interviewing. And it was through the help of Dean Nelson who is the head of the Journalist Department at Nazarene College. And he had just published a book at the beginning of Covid. Thank goodness he signed it for me. And I’ve been, through the last couple of years, taking classes through Zoom and keeping—working on it. So, I stepped into your offer at a perfect time and now my goal is to ask better questions so that when I’m asking the people that I’m interviewing, ask them the questions that will really make them talk about their true story, not the one that was—we all have kind of a fake story—but looking for that real story in people. That’s my goal. 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:40.000 So, what I’m hearing you saying is that once you moved to San Marcos and found some educational opportunities—and I think you told me you went to Palomar College for photography class? 00:05:40.000 --> 00:06:57.000 Oh yes. That’s where I began to really explore that creativity and getting rid of the old ideas that just because I had a camera doesn’t—at my age—doesn’t mean that I’m just taking pictures of my family or my kids. I do street photography for the Chamber of Commerce here in San Marcos. Been doing that for about 4 or 5 years now. And I’ve been involved in that. My characteristic or habits of exploring were kind of construed as masculine traits back in the 20s and 30s. And not to express—Well, all of a sudden, I am expressing. And I think, for a while, where I live here viewed me as a likeable tomboy. (Tanis chuckles) And now, I’m not. I’m just this loveable little old lady who is curious and adventuresome and turning it all into a better perspective where I listen more and talk less. 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:12.000 So, going back to school in your 80s, how many of your classmates—Did you have study groups or go on field trips or anything like that to hone your craft? 00:07:12.000 --> 00:08:42.000 No. No. We had assignments that we were to go out and—like one was speed, just to photograph in proper way. And this was very unique. I went to a skateboard place. And this gentleman who was very well dressed and saw me with my camera had a little grandson with him. And he had a designer cap on, a little tricycle, and he was following his grandfather around. So, the gentleman came over to me and he said, “Excuse me. What are you going to do with those pictures?” And I said, “Oh. I’m taking a class, and the assignment is speed.” He said, “Well, if my son ever saw him on Facebook, he’d kill me.” And I said, “Really? Well, I’m not taking them. I’m taking them, the speed of these” who were really good skaters, just flying through the air with the skateboard. So, a little bit later, he came over and asked me, he said “So, you’re going to Palomar.” And most of my class, I would say 50% of us were older people who were looking for just honing a skill, something that they would really do. Most of them were people that were looking for to go out and hike in the desert, you know, and walk all night and wait for the sun to come up on the right spot. 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:43.000 Ahh. 00:08:43.000 --> 00:10:13.000 But that wasn’t my intent. Anyway, he came over and he said, “So, you went back to college.” He said, “Hhmmm. The other day—” He said, “I’ve been retired now for about a year.” And he said, “The other day I went in to get a cup of coffee and my wife said, ‘Get out of my kitchen!’” (Tanis laughs) And he said, “What do I do now (shrugs) I’m retired and I don’t have anything really doing. I never thought of going back to college.” So, it’s exploring what’s available to us. And I’ll never forget how he was like “What do I do now?” (shrugs) And I see so many of my peers that are like “I don’t know how to get on Zoom. I don’t know how to handle Covid.” It has been a very upsetting time, and things are confused on any level. So, that was kind of the beginning of accepting my wonder and curiosity. And creativity was also considered back in the 2000s, well, especially during the Great Depression. Because survival was what you looked for. Curiosity was a waste of time. Buck up! And get out there and, you know, get the work done. 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:14.000 Okay. 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:15.000 So— 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:35.000 So, in addition to going to Palomar and taking photography and then, as I understand it, during the pandemic you got involved in interviewing or honing your interviewing skills. Now, tell me about how that got started. 00:10:35.000 --> 00:13:42.000 Well, there was a gentleman who is now I think the head of the photography department of the Union Tribune. His name was Sam Hodgkins. He had a workshop down at Balboa Park. And I was going to take an interviewing kind of class, of photography, photojournalism. And what he did was he told us about how you go out and you interview people out in the street, the vendors. And in that class, there was I think about 12 of us, 12 or 14, but there were 3 or 4 engineers. They were perfectionists when it came to the photography, but they didn’t know how to talk to people. I went out and with my gift of gab, “Hi. What’s your first name?” (Tanis chuckles) And I came back, and I had four. But there was one lady who was getting ready, and she had a keyboard. And she was getting ready to put it up and I said, “Oh!” The sun was just perfect on the keyboard. And the background was back, but her hands on the keyboard. And I interviewed her, and I asked her, she said “Well, I’m working my way through college, City College. And this is my way of making money, is with the tips.” And so, I went back, and we had to show these pictures. And I showed mine with the keyboard. And Sam said, “Whose picture is this?” And I said, “It’s mine.” (raises her finger and has a sheepish look on her face) And he said, “Now, that’s what I’m talking about. When you’re interviewing, get the photo that draws people in to asking the questions.” And I said, “Do you think I could make a living at this?” (both chuckle) And he laughed. And soon after that, in the photojournalism class, I had to interview a person who was doing what he was doing. So, I interviewed him. And we did it at the new public library downtown. And then, he and his wife—he’d just gotten married—went to Brooklyn, New York, and she was a writer, a journalist. And he was the photographer. And quite often, like in The Tribune even, you’ll have a photographer and then you’ll have a storyteller on a different aspect of it. But I kind of liked the fact that I can go out and take photos of the vendors, those candid moments that you try to get, and then ask them the right questions. And the more I practiced, the better it is. So, this was a great opportunity for growth for me, when I met you. But that’s how it all got started. 00:13:42.000 --> 00:14:04.000 That’s great. Well, your business card says, “Connecting the dots” and I think that’s a perfect description of what you do. And you talked to me a little bit about where that idea came from. You want to share that again? 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:09.000 Um, I’m not sure. 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:14.000 The man you met at the dementia-- 00:14:14.000 --> 00:16:18.000 Oh! Yes. There was a gentleman who had worked with dementia people, and they were used to him. And he note—And he was there, and they were comfortable with his being there. So, they just kind of assumed that he was part of the woodwork. But he observed that as the family would come to visit the people with dementia, they might not know their spouse. They might not know their children. But if they were given a photo of themselves when they were young, like 17, maybe after they’d been in the service, that they would light up and just say “Ah. That! I know! I recognize that.” So, then he began to have them pose in front of like a sink if they’re washing their face. One gentleman had a smile on his face because he saw himself as a member of the service in World War II. So, he then imposed that photo of him, when he was young, into the mirror. So, he was seeing himself as young. Another one was a lady who was a nurse. And she was also getting dressed. But behind her was a different nurse, probably a therapist that was holding a walker. And the lady is looking in the mirror, of herself as a nurse, thinking “I should be the one that’s doing that because that was my job.” And you could see the confusion on her face in both of those pictures. Another was a pharmacist who was stirring his little cup of coffee and he saw himself as a pharmacist stirring, when he was young. So, I thought, you don’t really have to have dementia to remember that. So, I started practicing in that and it was enjoyable. 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:41.000 So, the other thing I am really fascinated about is that, during the pandemic, that you took a wherewithal to look into continuing your education on Zoom. (Lucy chuckles) And so, how did you go about finding all these classes on interviewing or asking the right question? 00:16:41.000 --> 00:19:15.000 Well, I was fortunate in that I was in a—I was working in a medical laboratory in 1965. And at that time—it was in Minneapolis, which is where I had my degree in Business—they decided they were going to automate the laboratories. Sperry Rand and Control Data were both there. And at that time, there were more Fortune 500 companies in Minneapolis than any other city. That’s not the case now. But they were going to automate this laboratory. And this young man, probably 30, 35, was working for Sperry Rand and he said, “I know you people are really scared you’ll lose your job and there won’t be a need for you. But” he said, “this is just a tool. Technology is a tool. And it’s meant to help you, as a tool. What it can’t do is it can’t see the beautiful sunset where the Mississippi River and the Minnesota River come together. It can’t see the shoreline. It can’t see the sunsets. It’s just a tool.” I fell in love with technology then. And through my career as a management consultant then, I really came to appreciate more and more. I had my first computer when it was still a DOS. And quite different than it is now, much bigger. But I kept up with it and became kind of addicted to Windows. Now, I’ve changed to a iPhone because of Steve Jobs and his introduction to the school systems (Tanis laughs). But, and that’s another learning curve, switching from Windows to the iPhone. At any rate, then I was pretty much aware of the technology and its value when Covid hit. And I immediately was on to this whole thing. That was how I met Dean Nelson, any number of groups that would get—and you can talk to them and discuss things. And it was wonderful. It really carried me through the two years. I was not isolated because of that. 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:25.000 That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Well, truly, you know we talk about lifelong learners, and I certainly think that you are a perfect example of a lifelong learner! 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:26.000 Well— 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.000 And a lesson for all of us. 00:19:28.000 --> 00:20:15.000 —I think that all of us need to stop and look at what our gifts are and learn to develop them earlier. I’m grateful that I did. It all worked out in a constructive way. But we all have them. And it’s not everybody who is going to be an interviewer. A lot of people are really very, very creative. That has nothing to do with that. You don’t have to be an extrovert (both chuckle) in order to do that. So, I would encourage people to stop and think about the moment, not the future, not the past. But what do I want to have happen? 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:16.000 Yeah. 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:18.000 What do I want to express? 00:20:18.000 --> 00:21:20.000 So, I’d like to move our interview into now, once we got involved with this North County Oral History project. And during our first class—and we talked about our assignment and going out and interviewing at least two, and maybe three, people—you immediately knew exactly what direction you wanted to go in. And it was with the farming industry. And I was amazed because a lot of us that were in the class were kind of ticking off who might we interview. But you were really driven to capture some stories of people in the farming industry. So, I’m wondering how, where did that interest come from, Lucy? 00:21:20.000 --> 00:25:29.000 Well, I was raised on the farm in the Midwest. But I didn’t like it. Didn’t want to be there. (Tanis chuckles) It was isolated. It was, you know, not a—They needed men for the work of the farm. But the one interesting thing about this area is San Diego is the ninth largest city in the United States. But within its county, it has more farms—and especially para-farms—than any other county in the United States. That’s an unusual situation. I also know that it has 23 different kinds of soil that grows one thing on one area and then 10 miles down the road something else is better. They found that flowers and strawberries love the ocean whereas olive trees don’t. But inland, olive trees are great because the soil is different. The moisture is different. And, at the same time, there’s a crisis right now in our expensive way of living that developers want to develop the land rather than grow crops. And they would like to have condos instead of strawberries. So, it has put all of us into a very precarious situation about what’s the future of farming here. So, in order to know the past, present, and future, what better way than to go and look at the history. And, because I hang out at farmer’s markets—and in 2017 there were 5000 para-farms, which means 10 acres or less. They’re due to do a survey next year, 2014 (2024). This is done by the Farm Bureau. And I’d already been to their yearly groups and the Farm Bureau and that, and all of the farmer’s markets. And then when Vista was the only market that never closed during the pandemic. And he stood up to them and said, “If the grocery stores are open, we’re open.” And there were some vendors that came too. So, I had an inroad. So, I went back to a couple of vendors and started just curiously saying “Where did your farm start?” And I chose, first of all, the one that has the strawberry farm. And Mr. Nagata whose family came here in 1902 and was able to buy land at that time, and he married the Yasukochi family who were famous for their—everything from CSA. And their son, Neil Nagata, is the Farmer of the Year this year, here in San Diego County. Then I looked a little further and there was a farm up in north Escondido, close to Temecula, that is the Rodriguez farm. And they migrated here from Mexico in 1923. And I interviewed Joe Rodriguez who is the third generation of five in their farm. And then the third one was—and I have trouble with the last name on this because the gentleman was Italian, Capo-- (Cupaiuolo) 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:32.000 C. Susan C! (both laugh) 00:25:32.000 --> 00:30:01.000 Right! Exactly. And he passed away in 2020. But they had, he and his wife, had about 20 years of very successful cherimoya (sic) orchard which is very unusual and unique. And, as a side note, cherimoyas are only grown in San Diego County and Orange County. They won’t grow anywhere else in the United States because of the soil conditions and the moisture. But, at any rate, he passed away in 2020. So, I interviewed his wife. And she told about how they were able to make a construct of this. And this very representative, six acres, and very representative of how these farms that are under 10 acres can survive. And a lot of them didn’t during the Covid. They didn’t know how to market. They didn’t know how to sell their products. Their audience was gone. Instead of “Here’s my tomatoes I grew” where do the people come when the markets weren’t even open? So, there was a lot of things that her husband had contributed in that knowledge. He did a lot of work with Frazier Farms and promoted the cherimoyas (sic). And they had backups of ways that they survived. It was very, very interesting. And it was through this past adventure kind of thing that I’d been doing anyway that I continued then with that and pursued it, and fortunately found three families that had immigrated as well. So, as the techs from Cal State are doing these hashtags, you can look at it from immigrants that began farming. And especially the Rodriguez family was very interested in—because they’ve gone organic. And organic is a special kind of treatment that they have to go through to get their soil fertilized. It’s very costly. And yet he wants to promote now that he’s getting older. He would like to retire and just help younger people become interested in growing. Right now, the kids don’t want to be farmers. The immigrants don’t want to be farmers. Mr. Nagata told me that if they have to pay $15 an hour for minimum wage now to have people pick strawberries, they can’t afford, in this day and age, to sell wholesale. So, these things are all building up as to how they did it ; what we’re in the crisis with right now ; and then, with this San Diego Food System Alliance, look at new ways of developing foods that maybe we’ve never thought of before. Hydroponic (sic) gardening is one. There’s a few others—turning like—going against, not against, but seeing that milk products with cheese and that sort of thing maybe isn’t as productive for our own health as maybe almond milk that has plant-based cheese. And that’s scary to some people to think “Oh, my goodness. You know, let’s go back to the olden days.” (Tanis chuckles) And things change. No matter who we are or where we’re going. Attitudes change. Opinions change. Now, everybody has one whereas 70 years ago, no, you didn’t do that. So, it has been a really exciting time. I really love being out there and just talking to people about how did you do this and what do we do now? And where are my great-grandchildren going to go eat their lunch? 00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:18.000 Yeah. I’m curious because you seem so well-versed in understanding kind of the food production and history and future, is there anything through the interviews that you learned that surprised you? 00:30:18.000 --> 00:31:01.000 Um, not surprised me so much. But it brought out how do you ask better questions to get answers from people? In the storytelling process, the interviewing process, which is my thing, you have to learn to listen, and then think about it. And I made a couple of mistakes. But sometimes you have to make the mistakes to realize that that’s another growing experience, you know. Like “Oh, maybe I could have done that better. How can I do that better?” And ask a better question in a better way. 00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:02.000 Mm-hmm. 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:04.000 That’s what I think I’ve learned the most. 00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:30.000 Yeah. So, for anybody who’s listening to this interview and might consider either being interviewed or interviewing someone, how would you recommend or promote the idea of participating in oral histories? 00:31:30.000 --> 00:32:27.000 Well, I think if they know what their interest is—and mine just happened to be agriculture—but whatever it might be, do all the homework you can. Do the research of what do I need to know to ask the right questions to get to my point? The whole purpose of an interview is what’s the point? And if the point is to make a better understanding so we can build on the future, great. Whatever that avenue might be, do your homework. And one of the best sources is Madame Librarian. They are great at helping you see sources. They know how to get on the internet and dig deep. And the deeper you dig, the more insight you get about asking the right questions. 00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:44.000 Well, that’s great. So, as we wind down this interview, I would like to ask what’s next for Lucy Wheeler? (Lucy chuckles) What do you have brewing in your mind about where you go from here, Lucy? 00:32:44.000 --> 00:35:59.000 Last year, when we started this project, it was in September I believe? And right after that, the San Diego Food System Alliance had their second big global kind of meeting. And they met over at Escondido at the Center. And I went to it. And all of a sudden, I was in rooms with these future-thinking farmers of saying “I don’t even understand the language” because they had different speakers and different ways of presenting. And that’s when I started to say I need to dig deeper. So, I’m digging deeper into how this Alliance now is viewing the food system that they’re imagining. And part of it has gotten involved with the climate part. They’re trying to draw in it as well as drawing in all nationalities, not just one, and trying to understand it more global, really raise the arena. And I’d like to be part of that. And I had asked them when I went to it. It was just a few weeks after we’d started. And they just sent me, the next one will be in October. And they will be discussing this, and I’ll have a much better language to use by the time I go to that. And I don’t—I have—One of the things that happens as you get older is you don’t have the energy you had when you were 20 or 30. So, I have my energy budget more in focus on how I can put that into my future. And for however long. None of us know how long we’re going to live, you know, if it’s going to be tomorrow or 20 years from now. But, in that interim, I plan to just keep doing that kind of thing because it interests me and it’s my reason for getting up in the morning. But I don’t have the energy to spend all day on it. It’s putting it into priorities. And that’s one of my priorities, is that goal of being interested in what might I contribute to this. And we can. We just don’t think we can. We get caught up in our own thoughts of the past. And we don’t open our imagination. And these people are opening the imagination of what can be possible, maybe more healthy. I’m not sure. 00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:26.000 More healthy. So, is there anything that I haven’t asked you about your educational process and your taking what you’ve learned and actually doing something about it in our little interview? Is there anything that I missed that you would like to tell our audience? 00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:58.000 No. I think that’s pretty much it. As we get older, things get into a different perspective like the energy. But there’s still the priority of what’s important to us. And one of the things that’s really important to me is to be able to feel like that I could contribute something. And that just means digging deeper. Not worry about my toe hurt when I was two. (Tanis laughs) 00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:07.989 All right. So, just to clarify, what year did you come to San Marcos? 00:37:07.989 --> 00:37:08.000 2010. 00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:10.000 2010. 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:57.000 So, the last 13 years have been dedicated to really honing in on something that I always wanted to do all my life. I think I was born with the gift of gab. I just didn’t know how to use it. And it took me a lot of years to figure out that it’s pretty nice to listen. And if you really stop to think about it, when you’re talking about the weather or you’re talking about the neighbor, it’s not always focused on what our traits or skills could be, what the energy level could be. It’s a distraction. And, yeah, I think listen more and talk less. 00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:12.000 All right. Well, this has been a pleasure for me to have you share this with our audience and be part of the collection at Cal State San Marcos. So, thank you so much. 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:15.000 I have enjoyed it to the hilt. 00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:18.000 Great. Okay, enjoy, Lucy. 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:19.000 Thank you. 00:38:19.000 --> 00:39:22.000 Take care. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.xml WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wheeler, Lucy. Interview, April 28, 2023. Description An account of the resource Lucy Wheeler discusses college, photojournalism, and San Diego agriculture, specifically the county's para-farms and family farms. Prior to attending Palomar College to study photography, she did street photography with the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce for several years. Gender roles and assumptions about age are also addressed. Additionally, Wheeler also contemplates the current state of American agriculture and potential prosperity, oral history, and her "gift of gab." Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-045 Subject The topic of the resource Adult students Education, Higher Family farms -- California Oral history Photography Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-28 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lucy Wheeler Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tanis Brown Charlie Colladay Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Lucy Wheeler Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5b0f05f2cf213129ba63269ce29c982c.pdf e70f492593d23d2cab0d1ff78b24ba9c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource White, Alex. Interview transcript, April 8, 2024 Description An account of the resource Alex White is a Chamorro activist who experienced a two week long Chamorro immersion program histed by the Prugraman Sinipok organization. In this interview, he speaks on his experiences growing up in Colorado, his engagement with Chamorro culture, and his path to learning the Chamorro language. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alex White Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-04-08 Subject The topic of the resource Language revival Chamorro language Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania Colonization -- Japan Colonization -- United States -- Guam Decolonization -- Guam Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English and Chamorro Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Alex White License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WhiteAlex_SheehanRobert_2025-07-22_transcript Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Guam San Diego County (Calif.) Colorado Type The nature or genre of the resource text Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history Prugraman Sinipok Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Sheehan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Alex White OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WhiteAlex_SheehanRobert_2024-04-18.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Chamorro;imperialism;colonization;culture;decolonization;Guam OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 White, Alex. April 18th, 2024 SC027-082 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Chamorro (Micronesian people) Chamorro ; imperialism ; colonization ; culture ; decolonization ; Guam Alex White Robert Sheehan moving image WhiteAlex_SheehanRobert_2024-04-18.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a8a1f90cbd2908f9886a3aeb3bbc3e4f.mp4 Other video This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro 0 Introduction Oral history interview with Alex White, April 18th, 2024, by Robert Sheehan, Distinct Collections Specialist, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 ["[\"\"]"] 23 Background and Childhood White discusses his background and childhood growing up in Colorado before moving to California and living on a Miwok reservation. During his time in Colorado, White felt that he was unable to express himself freely due to the homogenous nature of living in a white, Christian, military town. White also talks about how his father was unwilling to speak Chamorro because of his own upbringing where he was beaten in school for speaking his native language. Colorado ; California ; Chamorro ; religion ; military life ; repression ; language 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 1137 Returning to Guam Alex talks about his return trip to Guam in 2015 and how that trip sparked his interest in learning more about his Chamorro history and culture. Guam ; Chamorro culture ; heritage ; Pacific island history 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1648 The Impact of Imperialism on Chamorro Culture Alex discusses how the extended periods of colonization and imperialism have affected Chamorro culture. From the Spanish colonization to American imperialism and Japanese occupation, the Chamorro community on Guam has had been forced to demonstrate their cultural resilience for more than 400 years. Colonizing forces have displaced Chamorro communities across the island of Guam and significantly affected everything from their culture, to their language, and how they live their lives. colonization ; imperialism ; Spanish colonialism ; American imperialism ; Japanese occupation ; Spanish American War ; World War Two ; WWII ; forced march 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2537 Differing Views of "Liberation" Alex talks about the cultural shift that is happening within the Chamorro community in regards to how "Liberation Day," the day that Guam was returned to US control from Japanese military occupation, is seen between elders and younger generations. The elders within the Chamorro community widely view Liberation Day in a positive light, but there is a growing feeling among younger generations that "liberation" really just means re-occupation. cultural shift ; imperialism ; opression ; displacement ; Chamorro culture 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2968 How Language can Renew the Path to Cultural Healing Alex demonstrates his views on how language can be a tool to reclaim parts of his heritage that imperialism and colonization have attempted to destroy. This is especially important for the Chamorro community because of how the Spanish words and linguistic nuances, like gendered terms, have infiltrated the Chamorro language. Reclaiming the Chamorro language also creates a connection between Alex and his ancestors and solidifies aspects of his religious beliefs. language ; generational trauma ; decolonization ; Chamorro culture ; cultural healing 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 3379 Inafa'maolek Inafa'maolek means in the literal sense to "make good" or "to do well." In the broader sense, Inafa'maolek describes the Chamorro concept of restoring harmony and reciprocity for good deeds and taking care of one another. Alex talks about how this concept is applied by Chamorro people both on Guam and in the Chamorro diaspora. community ; respect ; reciprocity ; harmony 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] Oral history Alex White is a Chamorro activist who experienced a two week long Chamorro immersion program histed by the Prugraman Sinipok organization. In this interview, he speaks on his experiences growing up in Colorado, his engagement with Chamorro culture, and his path to learning the Chamorro language. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:14.000 So today is July 18th, 2024. My name is Robert Sheehan and I'm here with Alex White for an oral history interview with, California State University San Marcos. How are you doing today, Alex? 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:16.000 I'm good. Yeah. Grateful to be here. 00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:30.000 Good. We're happy to have you. Thanks for being here with me today, it's really special that we get to do this oral history. If it's all right, I'd like to start with your childhood and family. Could you tell me a little bit about how you grew up and where you grew up? 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:34.000 Yeah. Any of it in Chamorro or, or 00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:41.000 Yeah, you can do any of it in Chamorro. We don't necessarily have a Chamorro translator, but if you wouldn't mind translating yourself, that be fine. 00:00:41.000 --> 00:02:07.000 Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, So my name is, Tadon Guita Pago. But my American name is Alex -- Alexander Michael White. I'm currently living in, on the territory of the Pomo and Miwok people in Santa Rosa, California. But I grew up in Carter Springs, Colorado, and I come from the families of Leon Guerrero White, from the Village of Manila and Todesco Cruz from the Village of Santa Rita. So I was just like, my somewhat traditional, like Chamorro greeting is like naming like who I am and the family that I, come from. And yeah, so that's, that's the, you have to gimme like, honestly, like my brain's a little foggy, so, I'll need, I'll need more prompting than usual just given the, given my current, yeah. 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:09.000 Sure. No worries. 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:11.000 Cognitive, cognitive sharpness, I suppose. 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:12.000 You bet. 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:14.000 So, but yeah, so that's, that's the intro. 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:16.000 How was it growing up in Santa Rosa? 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:18.000 So I grew up in Carter Springs. 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:19.000 Carter Springs. 00:02:19.000 --> 00:04:28.000 I would say being, mixed race, if you will. So my dad is Chamorro and my mom is, European descent, German and Italian predominantly. And, Carter Springs is known as the Evangelical Vatican, so there's more evangelical Christian churches per capita than anywhere else in the world. And then it's also triangulated by the Air Force Academy, Fort Carson and NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command) so it's kind of, a predominantly like white, militant, evangelical community and then growing up with, liberal parents, of, yeah, mixed race. So it was, the landscape was beautiful, but I'd say culturally very isolating. And I didn't, I never met another I Chamorro, my entire time. I had family there, but in saying in school and in the community, aside from Liberation, which is like one of our main, Chamorro holidays, I never, I rarely crossed paths. I never went to school with another Chamorro. so yeah, it was definitely very isolating and I think part of it being so conservative, as well as being such a, like a military town, as well as my dad's experiences after World War II. Growing up, he identified us as like, I'm American first and Guamanian second. So that's, and I didn't actually even know the term Chamorro until I was 10 years old. so I, I identified as Guamanian, but not, not Chamorro until, I was ten. So yeah, so there was, there was beautiful things. My material needs were met. I always had, you know, stable housing, food, had neighbors who were kind to us. But I'd say like there was a lot of, yeah, there was things that were challenging, I would say. 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:36.000 Like socio-culturally outside of, outside of like my like inner circle of like friends and, and neighbors. Yeah. 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:40.000 What sort of challenges did you face other than the isolationism? 00:04:40.000 --> 00:05:53.000 I'd say, the, I think of not being a evangelical Christian was probably like the, the most challenging. you know, it'd be kind of things like, my dad had a, or maybe it was my parents had a sticker on the back of the car that, had like the Darwin fish that said evolve. And so a car got keyed. You know, it was known that I wasn't that, like we weren't evangelical and so, you know, people leave like bibles on our car or like illustrated guys to salvation, like tucked in. It was also, I'd say like homophobic, and very heteronormative and, yeah, I think it was, I very much in order to feel safe, I was perceived as being white cis male and so I never really tried to step outside of that identity just to feel safe. So yeah. 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:55.000 It sounds like a little difficult growing up. 00:05:55.000 --> 00:06:11.000 Yeah, it was. I, you know, I wouldn't, growing up, I wouldn't say this is difficult. It's just upon reflection there's like a lot of, yeah, a lot of, yeah. I can reflect upon it as as as very challenging. Yeah. 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:17.000 Did your father speak any Chamorro in at home or does he speak any Chamorro now? 00:06:17.000 --> 00:08:44.000 No, I, the, the three phrases that I, the only three phases he really taught me were, . So Hafa Adai is hello. And that's kind of like every Chamorro at least knows Hafa Adai. And then Si Yu'os Ma'ase is, thank you. The literal translation is like "the creator is merciful." but Si Yu'os Ma'ase is like, our common for thank you. is the way my dad grew up saying, I love you. and then Hafa Tatatmanu Hao was like, how are you? I thought as a kid it meant I'm hungry. Please feed me. Because that was on the, one of the important phrases my dad taught me before he went back to Guam for the first time. So, but no, it, Chamorro was never spoken in the household. I know there was, Chamorro was a genderless language, and so my dad mixed up, he and she all the time, you know, which my mom found very frustrating and embarrassing. And the, I think my dad was of a generation where, you know, he was, he was beaten for speaking Chamorro, like growing up, like in schools. He was born in (19)41, so for the first 18 years of his life, he only spoke Chamorro at home, but he would go to school where it said English only if he spoke Chamorro, the nuns would beat him. And also his parents saw that in order for, you know, for his, for their children to have the greatest chance of like success and stability, they needed to learn English to get a good job. And to, also just to assimilate into American culture. So he moved to the States when he was 18, so in 1959 actually in Oceanside. And so from the time he left the island, the only time he spoke Chamorro was like with family and friends, but in the community, he really, he found like an immense sense of pride of being American, growing up. And so, very much just wanted to be American speak American act American get an American job. And so, yeah, so speaking the language like was never really a priority. And I only knew those phrases, and it's not like we ever said it really outside of like, when you like traveled to or preparing to travel to Guam for the first time. 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:47.000 When did you travel to Guam for the, the first time? 00:08:47.000 --> 00:09:56.000 First time was for Liberation in 1997, so I was 10 years old and actually was like full credit to my mom. She called the University of Guam, you know, it was like pre-internet, you know, really. So like called the University of Guam, and there's an 18 hour time difference. So I don't know if she like woke up early or stayed up late to call them and ordered a book, to be delivered to our house. And, you know, mail in a check , this is oral histories, I'm just telling, you know, like, you know, that's, it was pre, pre transferring to any funds digitally. And so she had a book delivered and that was, I remember distinctly that my dad was teaching me, like we were learning Chamorro History for the first time, and that's the first time I heard the word Chamorro was when I was 10-year-old, like from that book. But my dad was learning stories about Chamorro history that he had never learned growing up, 'cause he was taught American history, not Chamorro history. so that was very distinct. And yeah, so we went back for Liberation. So it would've been the third week of July, 1997. 00:09:56.000 --> 00:10:00.000 Is that the first time that you were kind of in a Chamorro community? 00:10:00.000 --> 00:14:28.000 Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I, we, because there's a large military presence, and I believe, you know, you can like factor, but something like, like four out of every five Chamorro, like are enlisted in the, in the military. It's like a very like high enlistment rate for our veterans. Because of the large military presence, there actually was a Chamorro community that existed, you know on base. And so, you know, once a year there would be a Liberation picnic, at a park in Colorado Springs. And so it was there, but that was really, more of like food, you know, it was like, I experienced culturae through food, but I don't have any recollection of the language or necessarily I couldn't, I wouldn't have been able to articulate that as like Chamorro like values or practices. So yeah, going on island, like for the first time, that was very much like the first time I experienced Chamorro culture and like the thing was though, is that I had a older cousin, tell me that because my mom is haole, which is like somewhat derogatory term for like a white person. not as much as like it is in Hawaii, but nevertheless, it's not like a, you don't want to be a haole , you know, like per se. But, because my last name is White, which has its own very unique story, but because my last name was White and my mom was white, and I'm light skinned, you know, my cousin said like, you're not Chamorro. and so since then, when I was 10 years old and I had a cousin telling me that, you know, who's like slightly older than me, then I, I thought like, well then I'm not allowed to, you know, I have a cousin telling me that, so I'm not allowed to say I'm Chamorro. So I would, I would say I was like Guamanian to non-Chamorros, but I wouldn't necessarily, if I was in a group of Chamorros, like I wouldn't say I was Chamorro too. Just because I thought, you know, yeah. Not that I had this language at the time, but I don't wanna be like appropriating or posing as Chamorro or like claiming an identity that I didn't have any right to. So yeah, it really wasn't until my early thirties that, I identified as Chamorro. Because of, because of that first time, like going back. I think an another experience that stood out was, that was like the first time I had experience with Taotaomo'na. So those are like our ancestors. and I remember going to a home that was next to a graveyard, and my dad asking permission, you know, for us to enter like doing like a kinda like indigenous protocol for entering like that type of space. And I remember going and then like feeling like picked up and like lifted up like as a kid. So that was like, those are like some of the, the things that I remember like standing out, like there was. And then the other was, that we were, my dad was, you know, it had been probably, let's see, he left in (19)59. They came back for their wedding one time. So it probably been about 15 years since he'd been, like, he went in (19)59, came back in the eighties (1980s) from my, my parents' honeymoon. And then it wasn't again until like (19)97. 'cause the thing is, it's, you know, there's like only one airline that goes there, and so they have a monopoly. So like nowadays it's $2,000, but you can kind of like adjust that for inflation. It's not, not like a quick, easy, affordable trip to go back. And so, you know, my parents were, working class and so it's not like we had the funds and there's actually like a story that goes with that, but I was just like, focus on that. But my dad was lost, like looking for directions on Guam. And, I just remember like, when you stop and ask people for directions, you know, they were like, oh, hey, come and eat, come and eat, you know, so, which is just very Inafa'maolek (striving for harmony). It's like our, our, like the Chamorro people are very generous and reciprocal and giving. And so that like stood out to me of like these complete strangers inviting us in to feed us food. So yeah, those are some of the, the memories from our first time. 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:37.000 Very cool. What caused you to want to kind of reconnect with your culture? And learn Chamorro and become and identify as Chamorro? 00:14:37.000 --> 00:16:51.000 Yeah, I would say, a couple things. First was that my dad had 12 siblings. Two that died during the forced march to concentration camp, on Guam. So they never survived infanthood. And I had two, my auntie Cindy and my uncle Danny passed away while I was in college. But around 2016, between 2016 and 2023, I lost my uncle Jesse, auntie Terry, auntie Annie, aunt Dorothy and uncle Vince. So I lost five of my dad's siblings. And so, especially after my aunt Dorothy, my dad became like the eldest surviving in his family. And the only one who like spoke Chamorro, his younger siblings, Agnes and David, they grew up, kinda like English first rather than like Chamorro first. and then they moved to the states when they were young, still in school. So they went to school, in the US. And so my dad was like the, the last of his, like his family, his lineage to speak Chamorro. And so just like, there's an enormous amount of grief around not learning more of the language. You know, there's, there's that saying that like, every time an elder passes, a library burns down. And so, so many of our families stories, passed with my aunties and uncles who passed in like, such a concentrated point of time, you know, it was just kind of like one after the other. So that was, you know, definitely motivated by that, of like, man, you don't have, like, you know, I felt like, at the time I very much felt like, like sand that was like trying to hold onto sand and it just like falling from my fingers of like not getting that, getting those stories while they were still here with us. 00:16:51.000 --> 00:18:17.000 The other was just going through, you know, kind of feeling spiritually malnourished, like trying to make sense of this world and my place in it. And, unfortunately got involved in some like, new age spiritual communities that didn't have good, spiritual hygiene. Did not necessarily, like appropriated practices without knowing the protocol or, consulting with elders. And just seeing a lot of harm, as a result of that. And it was connecting with other spiritual practitioners of, like indigenous, spiritual practitioners. And, I had like a specifically like a mentor Luna Pantera, who I like see as a spiritual counselor from the African diaspora had a saying that, like, you need to, you need to connect with your ancestral roots, otherwise, the coming storm will sweep you away. And so just kind of seeing where we're going, like in the larger, you know, sociopolitical, economic, conflict and chaos, , it feels like we're like, especially 2016 of how do we ground ourselves? 00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:57.000 And so like trying to develop an ancestral reverence like lineage practice, was was part of that journey of like really wanting to reconnect. And then also returning to Guam in 2015, with my siblings and my dad. And so like returning to the island and, and learning more of the history, in my adulthood, was really like another like another major catalyst for wanting to return to that. And yeah, so those are like, those are some, we'll take like a breath for you to ask my questions from there because it's like a lot. 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:01.000 Yeah. On that. so could you tell me about the trip in 2015? 00:19:01.000 --> 00:20:14.000 Yeah, that was the, that was like the first and maybe last time that, my siblings and all of their kids, and my dad all would go to Guam together. And so we went for Liberation again. But that time I was, very much like wanting to learn about, like, about our history outside of, you know, like you grow up kind of like on, like I grew up really only knowing the story of the, of World War II and the Americans coming to liberate, Guam. That's like really kind of, the extent of what I knew about that. And so returning, I was trying to learn about what our practices were, like, what our history was prior to not only like the Americans, but like pre-colonization. and so, you know, I bought a, ancient Chamorro Society book, and was reading about that, just like very hungry for all of that. 00:20:14.000 --> 00:21:47.000 And, man, I'm trying to remember. I think, and we also like went to, oh my God, I'm forgetting the name. It's in the south in Inarajan. Oh my God, I'm embarrassed. This is on his, that there's a village in the south, I think it's Inarajan that is near a cave. But, where it was like set up like a, it's not an actual ancient Chamorro village, but it was set up like a ancient Chamorro village. So, going through those practices and, and then also of like talking like of having the awareness that you don't have when you're ten of like, of speaking to elders. So I would go and like, visit the elders and ask them stories about like their past and their history, and, visiting my dad's, like our family's old house and our village, and really just very, very hungry to understand, understand my people because I was, you know, at that point I was, let's see, like twenty, twenty-seven, no, anyways, I was in my mid-twenties at that point. And so just like to be in your mid-twenties and still like questioning and like wouldn't be able really to explain anything about my, like where my people come from, I think was, yeah, I was like was very much like inspired, by that, like by that trip. 00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:59.000 How has Chamorro culture changed from pre-colonization to colonization to Japanese occupation, to liberation to US... 00:21:59.000 --> 00:23:28.000 How much time we got how, you know, it's, it's a miracle that like, we're here. You know, I'd say there's, there like our Hinengge, like our values, there's certain values that have survived like throughout the arc of, all of that, you know, I'd say like our, our values of like Inafa'maolek, so like of our kind of social reciprocity and mutual aid and like, I will support you and take care of you like when you're in need right now, because I know one day I'll be in need and like, you'll take care of me. Like that, that type of, that type of reciprocity that has survived amidst like, all of those changes like that, that cultural, like tenet is there. and I'd say like, , so like showing respect for, for elders, but as well as children. Like going both ways and just like a reverence for, you know, caring for those who are older than you, even if they're not your, even if you're not blood related, like they're your family, your community, like you take care of each other. you know. Mamahlao is like having, to have shame, like seeing that as like a good thing to like, Guaiya that's like the cultural value of love, like, and loving for each other. So those, there's certain values that have survived. 00:23:28.000 --> 00:24:33.000 And I'd say like really we're, it's kind of, it's existed in different forms, but of, of like our ancestral like reverence practices, our relationship with the land. And, you know, the foods that we make, those have all have survived, but so much has been lost, during, when the, I guess I mean, just to, just to kind of like set the context, like we were like the first first people to people, the Pacific. And so, you know, roughly 4,000 years ago, our ancestors from back then, like were at the edge, like maybe it was Taiwan, maybe it was the Philippines, probably not Indonesia, but maybe it was like one of those, like one of those points they were like on the, like eastern shoreline, like looking out over the Pacific, and they wondered like what was on the other side of that water. 00:24:33.000 --> 00:25:36.000 And so they, they carved a canoe by hand and filled, without any refrigeration, like filled their canoe with food and said goodbye to everyone they knew, not knowing if they would ever see anybody ever again. And just by like following the stars, like reading the stars and the pattern of the waves, [they] paddled east to try to find another land. And that's what they found this little 24 mile long island. And, actually it's like the birds that are like on the bill of my hat, the story goes that like they saw birds and so they knew if there was a bird, that there was land as they actually like followed the bird, like to Guam. So just thinking of like that and then creating this, creating this culture where like, you know, of course there was conflict, but there would be, it was like only amongst like the warrior class, and as soon as like one person was harmed, like, then it was over, like the conflict ended. 00:25:36.000 --> 00:26:38.000 and that all of our, our people, you know, that we had, we had healers, we had like Yo'amte, you know, like our medicine people who healed both like physical and spiritual ailments and used plants and, you know, I'm pretty sure the thing goes like is that people like live to be a hundred, and there was really an absence of like any disease and we had, you know, fresh water, we had birds that didn't exist anywhere else in the world. Like all these different, you know, it was like, it was like a paradise, you know, like of course there's conflict, you know, because there's human beings on there. And also there's these stories from like other indigenous tribes, like the, the Haida Gwaii, like the First Nations, who are like north of kwakwaka'wakw like of them, going across to like Taiwan and then down to New Zealand and everything like that. 00:26:38.000 --> 00:27:39.000 So like they, they went amongst other islands, like there was like international relations, but it was, there's like reciprocity and like sharing and that it was that way for like 3,500 years. Oh, also like the Latte Stone, like, it's like a really amazing thing. It's kind of like the Maria as islands versions of Easter Island, you know, it's these huge, these structures that like were carved that weigh thousands of pounds that they don't know how they moved these type of things. But that's like, we built our houses on top of those things. So there's things that are like, it's a very thriving, incredible culture that existed. And then, Guam was like the first one to be, colonized by like a European colony. So like in the, what was it like 1521 I think was when Magellan landed there. 00:27:39.000 --> 00:28:31.000 And you can like, I don't even wanna be telling like this story, you know, I'll just like, like share some of my stuff. But, you know, like, like say like my ninth great grandfather, say he was like eight or nine, like when the Spanish arrived, by the time he was 64, he was seen nine out of the 10 Chamorro people perish, either through like the Chamorro Spanish war or disease, you know, that the Spanish brought. And so just to think like, you know, my ninth great grandparents like survived a genocide, and to see nine out of the 10 of everyone they knew die, you know, like either killed or died. And just to, you know, that's like when they talk about like ancestral intergenerational trauma like that, like exists in our bones, like my bones are made of my ancestors that survive that. 00:28:31.000 --> 00:29:37.382 But that also, like, for us, it's like both trauma, but really trying to focus more on like the resilience of like, we still kept our culture alive, you know, amidst surviving, like that type of genocide. So there's like the Spanish period, which lasted from the 1500s to the1900s, and then the Spanish American War and just as imperialists do, you know, when America won the war, then the treat of Paris of 1898 was when, America "won" Guam like a trophy, but it's because it's one of the largest islands that far west in the Pacific. Like, it's the western most colony of America. It's incredibly strategically significant and important for imperial military operations. So it's like really significant. So then there's like the naval period, which is when my grandmother grew up. 00:29:37.382 --> 00:30:57.905 So like in the early 18, early 1900s , late 1800s, early 1900s, my grandmother and Gracia Tedasco Cruz, was growing up and yeah, so it was like, it wasn't run by the US government, it was like run by the, the Navy. And, just the way, like one of the stories that I connected with that is that like my dad is like, you know, he, he jokes about it as like the curse of the dirty corners, but it's like where like he always has to have, like, he can never leave the house. Like all the counters like have to be clean and like, even the corners have to be washed. And so I kind of like, it's, the way that manifests is like for me too is like there's like kind of this like low grade anxiety if things are cluttered or messy at home, because my dad always kept everything like super clean and he got that from his mom. 00:30:57.905 --> 00:31:15.000 But for his, like for my grandma Gracia, like my Nanan biha , like the Navy would come and do inspections of like Chamorro's houses, you know? And so if you have a Navy officer like coming in, in uniform inspecting the cleanliness of your house, like you have to keep it clean, like military standards type of thing. And so as a young girl, having this, like this, you know, white man in a uniform come in threatening, aggressive, like, you came in and clean, like you're gonna keep your house a certain level of clean. So those are just like small, like, you know, there's like kind of these like abstract academic things, but that's like the way, you know, it kind of like shows up. 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:16.000 And they weren't in the military at all? 00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:21.000 No, no, no. They were, they were just living on their land, their ancestors had for thousands of years. 00:31:21.000 --> 00:32:28.000 But, you know, you know, that's just the settler colonial mindset is like, "I am here to like dominate and impose my culture and my rules and my regulations on these people." You know, one of the things that I get I think about a lot too is like before the Navy were there, I mean, yeah, Spanish, like I think the Spanish imposed some type of taxes, but like when the US arrived, they started, having the Chamorro people pay taxes on their own land that they had lived on for thousands of years. And that was like the thing I just think about for my grandparents is like, they didn't pay for food, they didn't pay for water, they didn't pay for shelter and they didn't pay for healthcare. Because like, all of that comes from the land naturally, the earth gives us that, you know, , it's like we, it's like, you know, a tree's not gonna charge us for harvesting it, you know, like our responsibility is to steward that land is to care for it, you know, so that, that those things can survive. 00:32:28.000 --> 00:33:20.000 But, and you would like for the, for the So'ampti and the Suruhanu , like you gave them food as like an expression of gratitude, so you take care of them so they can continue to do, you know, you help harvest their medicine, but you're not, you're not bringing money. There's actually, like, it's really bad juju to like give money to like a healer because that's like, that's seen as like, you know, there's, there's a lot of negative energy that's associated with like, that type of transactional thing. Like, you wouldn't, like, why would you ever pay someone to heal you? Like you're healing them because they need healed, you know? but I think it's, I really try to impart on like young people, like, like young indigenous people, and especially like young people like in the Pacific diaspora and Chamorros is like, it's not that long ago. 00:33:20.000 --> 00:34:20.000 Like the way that we're living right now is not the only mode of existence. Like, it's not like capitalism is like the highest potential of our human expression, you know? It was not that long ago. It was like in our grandparents and great grandparents generation, which is less than 150 years ago where they didn't have to pay for food and for water and for shelter and healthcare. It's not that long ago. And so another way of living does exist. It's in our lineage and everything like that. But yeah, so when theUS came, like the Navy came, they were trying to diminish the influence of the Spanish missionaries, Catholicism, just freaking wreaked havoc on our island too. But the Catholic priests held like enormous kind of sway and power. 00:34:20.000 --> 00:35:18.000 And so in a way to diminish their power, trying to lessen it, the naval officers came in and burned all the Chamorro-English dictionaries. And the sentiment at the time too was that like, if you spoke Chamorro and English, you only had half a brain in each. And so, like, people were stupid. People were looked down on for being bilingual, you know, it's like if like English is the "most superior" language. Also, there's a thing called like the Insular cases from 1901, which is [where] the Supreme Court said that these unincorporated territories like Guam, like Puerto Rico are an alien race that can't understand Anglo-Saxon principles, which is why they don't have rights. Which that Supreme Court case is still why, like is that's still today. 00:35:18.000 --> 00:36:26.000 It's not like, that's not ancient history. Like that is still like a Supreme Court ruling. That is how our islands are governed. So that's like a lot. But, so they come in and they degrade and exploit and take advantage and control and extract the resources from our land. And then the same day that, so my dad was born, November 7th, 1941. And so he was a month old that the same day that Japan bombed Pearl Harbor [it] was also the same day they invaded Guam. But the US had intelligence around that, so they evacuated the US military members, but those US military members weren't allowed to bring their Chamorro families with them. So they're just like, they're like, "You're on your own Chamorros!" I mean like, "Good luck!" you know, like, "We know Japan's coming, but like, we just gotta get our white military people outta here and like fend for yourselves!" 00:36:26.000 --> 00:37:35.000 And so yeah, my dad was like, a month old, like when it happened. And so then it was, they were under a Japanese rule, which was, and there was some ways, some ways that it was like a little better than the US but most ways it was, it was, cruel and just like an immense amount of suffering that like, I don't necessarily have the energy to unpack, you know, at 10:00 in the morning. You know, the one story I'll tell is like when the, US military campaign was coming to reclaim, you know, like they're doing their, their Pacific theater of like going to... the military campaign to take back those territories and to fight back the Japanese Imperial Army. The Japanese were afraid, like, were afraid that the Chamorro people would side with the Americans, that there would be like that loyalty and allegiance to America, and that they would help the Americans as they came in. 00:37:35.000 --> 00:38:34.000 And so they gathered up all of the Chamorros that they could find, you know, and did a forced march to the Manenggon concentration camp. So my whole family, my dad was three or four [years old] having to do a forced march, no food, no water, middle of the summer, so like nineties [degrees Fahrenheit] humid. And that's what, so my, my auntie Anna, my Aunt Anna and my aunt Maria, I think they were like probably less than two [years old], twins. They were twins and they were being carried. And, during that forced marched the first, one of the first twins, passed away because they didn't, because of those really severe conditions. And, the Japanese guard made my grandparents just leave her on the side of the road. 00:38:34.000 --> 00:39:44.000 And, and then a few miles later, the second twin passed away and my grandpa, so we have a belief, with like a, a very... I'm gonna try to like tell this part... but basically he didn't, it was important to him that they not be alone. And so he, took a major risk and when he saw, a wasp nest, a hornet's nest, stuck his foot in it so his foot would swell up and he risked that so it looked like he basically said like, "I can't walk anymore," to the Japanese guard. and they could have just shot him on the spot. They did that to a lot of [people], but they figured that he would just perish. And so when night came, he walked back, to the first twin that died and buried them together, on the side of the road so they wouldn't be alone. 00:39:44.000 --> 00:40:32.000 And then he went and rejoined his family and they lived in a concentration camp without food or water or shelter, just in the jungle. With violence that I've never experienced or witnessed. And that is very difficult for our elders to even talk about. So yeah, that was, and that's something that's not really taught outside, I mean, it is kind of known about, but it's not really taught much. That experience of like what the Chamorro people suffered in that concentration camp. 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:34.000 Would you like to take a short break? 00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:38.000 Ah, no. . I'll just, I'll take a water. Yeah, I'll take a sip of water. 00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:44.000 Okay. that's such a traumatic experience. 00:40:44.000 --> 00:41:31.000 Yeah, and it just like, it, I think, you know, there's like our, it's traumatic and it just shows like our traumatic and our resilience that we could, you know, I think that's like any time that I, I'm going through like a hard time, I'm actually planning to get a tattoo, like next time I go back to Guam of, of a hornet's nest, like on my ankle, of the hive and, and it say , which in Chamorro means "this is the way" just like you'll do the right thing and you'll take care of like, of your family and your people. 00:41:31.000 --> 00:42:26.000 Like, whatever. It's like a communal thing. It's like, not about me, it's about us, you know? And so I just have that, yeah, I think that's like probably like one of like the strongest stories that lives in me, that I got from my family, and I just feel like, [it] is important to share. But yeah, so then the Americans came and they just, carpet bombed the whole island. They indiscriminately, you know, they didn't really care if there was Chamorros there, they were, they were just trying to kill as many Japanese as possible, so they leveled the whole island. And then for my dad, so it is absolutely the, like, the living conditions, the acute violence and trauma that the Chamorro people experienced under Japanese rule is like, there's no question about that. 00:42:26.000 --> 00:43:25.000 And so in terms of like being liberated from a concentration camp, yes, that is an accurate term. So that's what our Liberation day was like when the Americans arrived and liberated the Chamorros from the concentration camp. But that's what my dad's generation calls it. You know, the elders and yeah, if you're living in those conditions, and you have these Americans come in and they give you candy and you're gonna just be so patriotic, you know. You're free from Japanese rules. So that's where so much of the, there was a legitimate like love and reverence for the US military, especially the Marine Corps, like those who arrived. I mean, that's like one of our main roads on [Guam] is like Marine Corps Drive. So there's like a, almost borderline worship of the US military because of that, for my dad's generation. 00:43:25.000 --> 00:44:45.000 However, my generation sees it as... we call like Reoccupation day, because the US military came and took over two thirds of the island. You know, like stole the land from our ancestors. As we speak, they're, you know, clearing football fields, like multiple football fields of our ancient villages and our ancient burial grounds. They're like, our ancestors' bones are just in paper bags in military offices. One of our most sacred island or sacred parts of the island, the , because of the US military, you know, this is July, 2024. Like because of the enormous amount of violence that Okinawa people have experienced in Japan and the years of resistance of trying to get the military off of there. They're moving the US military service members from Okinawa to Guam, and they're setting up a firing range, over, you know, our ancient caves like a, a place [where] an eight spotted butterfly and this flower that don't exist anywhere else in the world or anywhere else on the island. 00:44:45.000 --> 00:45:46.000 This like precious, like limestone jungle that doesn't, that is like this precious one of a kind only place in the world ecosystem. They're putting in, a live firing range and doing war games and detonating, detonating, like the, it is like the, also like their way of getting rid of ammunition and things they fire from World War II and just military equipment they're not doing [anyhting with] is literally like creating like a burn pit. They're just like putting old bombs and toxic chemicals and like lighting it on fire, like on the beach, next to an aquifer that supplies 70% of the island's fresh water. You know, so like when we , when we say "liberation", you know it's a complicated term. 'Cause of course we're gonna honor our, our elders experience for like being liberated from that and are grateful to the young men who sacrificed their lives to free my elders and relatives from those oppressive conditions. 00:45:46.000 --> 00:46:20.000 And what is also true is like, it's not like we got our land back, you know? and so like we've never gotten that land back. Like we can't even go, Sumay [destroyed village in Guam] is like, you know, some of my family, we're not even able to go pay our respects to, you know, they, it's called like Sumay Day. Like, I think once a year people are allowed to go to like pay the respects to their elders, you know? So yeah it's very complicated. And, you know, if we had more time, I could even dig into that, but I'll take a breath and see what what questions are coming up for you. 00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:34.000 Yeah. Sounds like all that is a very emotionally complicated feeling to have on one hand, Liberation day for your elders and the new generation is saying it's Reoccupation day and having to walk that fine line 00:46:34.000 --> 00:47:33.000 . And we'd never say that to our elders, to the face, like ever, you know. But amongst us, you know, and it's, oh man. I was, I was there for Liberation Day in 2022 and actually for the first iteration of this Prugraman Sinipok, and man, it's just like, because they just parade all of the military equipment they have there, you know, and they're not shy about it at all. You know, they call it like "America's largest aircraft carrier." It's like how they refer to our island. and, you know, it just, it's, it's so militarized and unfortunately because you have that, because the military occupies like two thirds of the island, really the only two industries are like the military and tourism, you know, and also 'cause of the Jones Act. 00:47:33.000 --> 00:48:26.000 Like, we're not allowed to like import food from other countries, you know, it's the same thing as what happens with the Puerto Rico. So, you know, it's like, even though we're so close to China and Indonesia and like all of that, all of our food has to be imported from America. And so that's why like, a gallon of milk is like 10 bucks or something, you know, . It's insane. But because there's all that like markup, you know, the Chamorro people like, yes, we're like US citizens, but we don't have any representation. We have a representative to Congress, but they don't have any voting power. and so, you know, if you, you pay the taxes, you pay for this expensive food to be imported from America, you don't have control over your own land or your own water or your food. 00:48:26.000 --> 00:49:29.000 You know, there's all of that sloganeering of like, "land of the free, because of the brave." You know, it's like the military gives our freedom's. But how free? How free are we if we don't have any sovereignty? If we don't have any say. Also because we're a pawn, you know. North Korea is always talking about like, if they're gonna shoot a missile, that's the first thing they're gonna bomb is Guam. You know, it's like we're a pawn piece in larger imperial conflicts. It's not like Guam has any hostile relations to the Korean people, or like the Chamorro people don't have any hostilities towards China, you know, but because of the US military being there, we're caught in the middle of this larger imperial conflict. So, yeah. 00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:33.000 Can I shift gears, and talk about language for a second, 00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:34.498 Please? Yeah. 00:49:34.498 --> 00:49:43.000 Is language a way that the Chamorro people can regain part of that agency that might have been lost through colonization or occupation? 00:49:43.000 --> 00:50:58.000 Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Language is, I think language is the one of the most critical things we can do for cultural preservation and revitalization. Because there's so much of our values and our history that are woven in the language that could be lost. I have a Coast Miwok [Indigenous tribe in California] friend who, their last fluent elder passed in the seventies [1970s]. And so if they're wanting to learn Miwok, Coast Miwok, they're just listening to recordings of like, you know -- [I'm] thankful for people like yourselves who preserve that type of thing. And like, I don't ever wanna see, you know -- I will have failed the, I would have failed to fulfill the responsibility my ancestors have given me if my descendants, generations from now, are only able to hear Chamorro spoken through oral history collections, in libraries. We need to keep the language alive, you know, in like canonical terms, it is like in academic canonical terms, it's extinct. 00:50:58.000 --> 00:52:01.000 Because we only have like 20,000 speakers left in the world, and probably over 60% of those are like over the age of 80, you know, they're like my dad's generation. And so this is like an absolute critical time for us to be doing this language revitalization, and preservation and revitalization. You know, one of the things, one of the complicated things too is because we had four centuries of Spanish colonization, so much of our language has Spanish influence. So there's a lot of words. So gender comes in [from the Spanish], you know, so like saying, Maestro, Maestra, you know, instead of like, those are gender terms of like a teacher [in Spanish], but in Chamorro it's like Fafa'na'gue, you know, it's like someone who teaches and it's gender neutral. You know, there's, there's things like that in terms of like, of preserving, you know, our, our concepts of gender neutrality. 00:52:01.000 --> 00:53:03.000 I mean, one is that, you know, there's like Nana and Tata, like those are inherited terms, because prior to colonization, you know, there was, Saina was an elder, Che'lu was a sibling, and then like Patgon was a child. And so yes, you had a biological mother and father, but every elder was responsible for like caring for the children, you know, and every person your age was your sibling. And so there's that type of like, yes, that's language, but there's a worldview that exists, within understanding that framework, of like, just because we're not blood doesn't mean -- whether you're my blood relative or not, you're still an elder that I respect that I can go to, that I can count on that I also have a responsibility of caring for. Another example, you know, for Spanish, like paz is, you know, like if you're looking up like in the dictionary, like probably like the word for peace in Chamorro, but that's, that's inherited from Spanish. 00:53:03.000 --> 00:54:16.000 But [speaking in Chamorro language] that's actually like the, [speaking Chamorro language] means like "from the land." That's like the, the root of all of our Chamorro language that existed pre colonization. Hinagung is I believe breath. And so [speaking in Chamorro language] is peace. And so just like to understand those cultural concepts of like, we find peace in our breath, you know, there's, there's just these really deep spiritually culturally significant things that, come with like learning the language that -- and there's things just like, you know, the way I'm trying to parse the concepts of like mutual aid and reciprocity, like those are like the closest things that we can try to use English to explain, but there's a felt sense of Inafa'maolek like an, Inafa'maolek of like caring for each other. That is a felt embodied value and practice, cultural practice, that you can't get from speaking English. 00:54:16.000 --> 00:55:20.000 It's just, it's so critical that we learn the language and keep it alive and teach it to -- And then for me, so that's just in terms of like, in this realm, like in like of thinking ancestral reverence practices, that's another major reason I was motivated to learn the language is like I almost lost my dad in 2019. And part of my belief system is that, is to do that ancestral lineage healing is that we need to like call upon our like, well and elevated ancestors, so our ancestors that didn't experience any of this intergenerational trauma, and we ask them for their blessings to come down the lineage to heal everybody in between like me as the anchor and them as the well and elevated ancestor for us to heal that lineage. And you know, like, yes, there, I think there's prayers can be said and felt in a spiritual -- can be expressed in a spiritual sense and understood in a spiritual sense. 00:55:20.000 --> 00:56:18.000 And I think there's a critical, a thing that I, I won't even be able to explain until I become an ancestor myself, of praying, for ancestors in our mother language that just, you know. So for me, as I prepare for my dad to transition, 'cause he's 83, you know.We're all ancestors in training, and his training is nearing an end, you know? I feel responsibility to be able to call upon the ancestors in Chamorro, you know, and ask for them to support my dad's, like transition into that realm, you know. To make his transition welcoming and peaceful and loving and easeful as easeful as possible that I living in this realm can like, help support facilitate with. 00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:29.000 I know we're running short on time, so I might ask one more question. Does [attempts to say Inafa'maolek ] extend across the diaspora, the Chamorro diaspora? 00:56:28.989 --> 00:58:20.000 And so that's, that's him practicing Inafa'maolek in the diaspora. And you know, there's people who, you know, they'll see that and reciprocate, but a lot of times because that's not honored here, I think that's where a lot of Chamorros can struggle in the diaspora. Is when Inafa'maolek is not reciprocated. But, absolutely like if you see another Chamorro and they have Inafa'maolek in their heart, they will like take you in. And if I see any, I mean, that's part of me doing this interview right now is for that like Inafa'maolek of like hoping that someone watching this, you know, another Chamorro in that diaspora knows that we're here for you, you know, like Inafa'maolek exists in diaspora. You don't have to be back home for your people to care for you. 00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:28.989 Yeah. Yeah. I would say Inafa'maolek exists in the diaspora. That's kind of what you can -- for the like -- one way that I a quick story to tell about it was my dad was practicing Inafa'maolek, when he was a mechanic. So he really struggled [with] seeing mechanics take advantage of people, you know. Like up charging them for services they didn't need. So he started his own business and that there was a lot of conflict between my mom and dad. 'Cause she was the accountant, my dad was the mechanic. And, you know, if there was say like a starving college student or a single mom, he would go to the junkyard, find the part used, and then just charge at cost for the part and not charge any labor because they knew that mom needed her car to get to that job to feed her kids. 00:58:20.000 --> 00:59:33.000 And like, if you need support, we're here for you just need to call on us. Like, and we'll be there to support you, because, you know, one day we'll be in need of support and you'll support us, you know? So yeah, absolutely. Like Inafa'maolek is like the theme that unites us, like across all the diaspora. Actually I'll just like, if we got time. Yeah. Even during Typhoon Mawar, so that was the typhoon that hit last year [2023]. Man, if I had the statistics, we started like Inafa'maolek mutual aid and just within, you know, a few weeks we were able to get, two shipping containers full of water, clothes, generators, all of these needs that our relatives in the islands told us. Like we were able to get supplies to the most underserved communities on the island, before FEMA [Federal Emergency Management Agency] was able to even disperse like one emergency payment. And so, yeah, I know for a fact that Inafa'maolek is one of the things that unites us anywhere we are in the world. I think if there's like, if, if our people know that you're in need, like we will, like we'll be there for you. 00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:40.000 That's great. Thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and, and talk to me today. Is there anything else you'd like to say before we end the interview? 00:59:40.000 --> 01:00:49.000 Oh, man. Yeah, the thing I'll just say is like, it's, I think, one of the things that really -- , I think both on island and [speaking Chamorro] like in the diaspora where they struggle with is feeling like Chamorro enough. I think just like if any Chamorro, any indigenous student, any Pacific Islander, and especially like any Chamorro, like if you're feeling like you're not indigenous enough, you're not feeling Chamorro enough, I just want you to know that like, that is the voice of the colonizer that -- I promise you're Chamorro enough, you're indigenous enough. Just you existing and you having your ancestors in your bones, you are enough. 01:00:49.000 --> 01:01:44.000 It doesn't matter. Blood quantum is a control tactic of the colonizers, you know? It doesn't matter how much blood you have, how light your skin is, how much language you speak, if you know how to make our food. You have that in your bones alone and you having those Chamorro values in your heart, that makes you Chamorro. That makes you indigenous. So, you know, don't believe the lies. Don't believe what any of those external forces that -- you know. You can just -- if you need that support, reach out to your community and ask the ancestors for that support. Because you are enough and you have so much to be proud of. 01:01:44.000 --> 01:03:01.000 We have an incredible -- the fact that you're listening to this. The fact that you're listening to this and that you're here is a testament to our resilience. And so you are our ancestors wildest dreams. And so like whatever you choose, whatever path you choose, whatever you do in your life, just know that your ancestors are with you and your community's with you, and they have your back and you're never alone. And yeah, the last thing I'll say is [speaking in Chamorro language] which is like the Creator is the Creator and we are people. so just, you know, there's only so much that we can control in this room. There's so many other things that are happening outside of like our mortal perception. So just calling the creator, and you know, calling your ancestors and calling your community for support. And I think actually we have time. I'll just like end in a chant. and this comes from, Si Jeremy Cepeda, and so this is called Manetnon Hit. 01:03:01.000 --> 01:04:02.000 Manetnon hit guini på’go, Na ta tuna si Ásaina, i Yahúlulo’, Nu i gef fina’tinås-ña siha, Nu i lina’lå’-ta, nu iya hita, Nu i mañaina-ta, nu i pa’å’-ta siha, Nu i guinahå-ta, Yan hókkokok ayu ni ha na’guahåyi hit, Taiguenao Mohon 01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:06.000 [We come together here today, To praise the Creator, the Most High, For all of the great things they have done, For our lives, for each other, For our elders/ancestors, for our ancestral words of wisdom, For the things that we have, And for all of the things that the Creator provided for us, And so shall it be (Amen)] 01:04:06.000 --> 01:04:08.954 Thank you Alex. We really appreciate your time today. 01:04:08.954 --> 01:04:09.000 Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks for, thank you for doing this. 01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:10.000 Absolutely. 01:04:10.000 --> 01:14:34.000 Appreciate your work. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WhiteAlex_SheehanRobert_2024-04-18.xml WhiteAlex_SheehanRobert_2024-04-18.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource White, Alex. Interview, April 18th, 2024 Description An account of the resource Alex White is a Chamorro activist who experienced a two week long Chamorro immersion program hosted by the Prugraman Sinipok organization. In this interview, he speaks on his experiences growing up in Colorado, his engagement with Chamorro culture, and his path to learning the Chamorro language. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-082 Subject The topic of the resource Language revival Chamorro language Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania Colonization -- Japan Colonization -- United States -- Guam Decolonization -- Guam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-04-18 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alex White Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Guam San Diego County (Calif.) Colorado Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Alex White Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history Prugraman Sinipok Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer, Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Elmer Royce Williams OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Veteran;Korean War;Naval aviator;Dogfight OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Williams, Elmer Royce. Interview November 8th, 2024 SC027-074 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran ; Korean War ; Naval aviator ; Dogfight Elmer Royce Williams Jason Beyer, Marilyn Huerta, Adel Bautista Moving image WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d6799d074d31395fe8b6205edd027f3f.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 50 Military Background Williams lists his years of service, branches of service, the highest rank he attained, and the wars he participated in. Navy ; Army ; Navy Captain ; World War II ; Korean War ; Vietnam War 0 76 Childhood Williams describes growing up in rural South Dakota, where he lived on a farm and worked in a grocery store. Wilmar, South Dakota ; rural ; farm ; grocery store ; World War I 0 136 Military Enlistment Williams describes his decision to enlist in the Army. He was always fond of aviation, and the military provided the best training. enlistment ; Army ; aviation 0 221 Military Training Williams reflects on his military training. Includes his worst experience, his first assignment after basic training, his views on instructors, his switch from the Army to the Navy, and his promotions. training ; bootcamp ; promotion ; instructor ; Army ; Navy 0 600 Adaptation to Military Lifestyle Williams describes the highs and lows of adapting to military service and mentions the wartime conflicts he was part of. World War II ; Korean War ; Vietnam War ; family ; military lifestyle ; stateside service ; wartime service 0 751 The Korean War and the Dogfight Williams tells his remarkable story about surviving a solo dogfight against seven Soviet pilots during the Korean War. Includes contextual details about the Korean War as well as descriptions of the political aftermath. Williams describes how some historians have written about the event. dogfight ; Korean War ; Soviet Union ; combat ; Washington ; Eisenhower ; Admiral Briscoe ; history 0 2141 Keeping Military Secrets Williams describes how difficult it was to keep his experiences secret in order to preserve national security. He recalls seeing reports on military events that he knew to be inaccurate or untrue. secrets ; military ; history ; censorship ; lies 0 2180 Interactions With Local Cultures During Wartime Service Although most of his service was in aircraft, Williams describes a war-torn Seoul. Shares stories of how Korean political and military leaders continue to honor him with awards for his service. Korea ; Medal of Honor ; Seoul ; Eisenhower ; culture 0 2282 Comradery and Recreation During Service Williams describes the strong bonds he built with members of his squadron. He also describes recreational activities, including volleyball and reading. comradery ; friendship ; squadron ; recreation ; volleyball ; reading ; religion ; prayer 0 2458 Injury, End of Service, and Return Home Williams experienced a plane crash in San Diego. He recalls how he dealt with the injuries that would eventually lead him to retire from the navy. retirement ; injury ; plane crash ; hospital ; San Diego ; surgery 0 2774 Return to Civilian Life After leaving the service, Williams gets his master’s degree and works in business. He describes his experience with the GI Bill, working in law, joining veterans' organizations, and keeping friendships. college ; business ; GI Bill ; law ; veterans’ organizations ; friendship 0 2949 Life Lessons from Military Service Williams describes life lessons he gained from military service. His recent nomination for the Medal of Honor has kept him busy with speaking engagements. He is also the president of a local congregation. He encourages people to stay positive, find community, and treat their civic responsibilities seriously. Medal of Honor ; life lessons ; reflections ; congregation ; president ; community ; civic responsibilities 0 3126 Involvement in North County San Diego Community Williams describes his involvement in the North County San Diego community, particularly in the city of Escondido. He also describes some of his day-to-activities with his family. Escondido, California ; community ; family ; Ikebana ; shooting ; home building 0 3271 Reflections on the Experiences of Veterans Williams wishes more people understood that veterans are kind people who serve their nation and are an important productive part of their community. He says military service taught him that life is a team sport. He recommends having a family and says family has been important to him. veterans ; family ; nation ; military service ; community 0 Oral history Elmer Royce Williams is a retired United States naval aviator, nationally lauded for his solo dogfight against seven Soviet pilots during the Korean War. Since his time in service, he has been increasingly recognized for his achievements. He was awarded the Navy Cross in 2023 and has been nominated for the Medal of Honor. In his 2024 interview, Williams described that transformative moment in his life and how it affected the Korean War. He also discussed his childhood, military enlistment, and military training. Approaching 100 years old at the time, Williams reflected on how religion, family, community, civilian work, and veterans' organizations shaped his life after service. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:50.774 My name is Jason Beyer, and I'm a graduate of California State University San Marcos. Today I will be interviewing Elmer Royce Williams. Today's date is Friday, November 8, 2024. The general location where this interview is being conducted is at the Williams residence in Escondido, California. My relationship to the interviewee is that we are both military veterans. The names of the people attending this interview include Marilyn Huerta ; camera operator, Adel Bautista ; Jason Beyer, the interviewer ; Elmer Royce Williams, the interviewee. And the purpose of this interview is to conduct an oral history. Please state your full name. 00:00:50.774 --> 00:00:53.435 Elmer Royce Williams. 00:00:53.435 --> 00:00:56.045 What branch of service you were in? 00:00:56.045 --> 00:01:04.474 I started in the Army for a couple years, then I went into the Navy. I served 37 years. 00:01:04.474 --> 00:01:07.204 What was the highest rank that you attained? 00:01:07.204 --> 00:01:10.394 Navy Captain O-6. 00:01:10.394 --> 00:01:13.185 What war or conflicts were you a part of? 00:01:13.185 --> 00:01:16.545 World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. 00:01:16.545 --> 00:01:23.265 That's the easiest part of this interview. Now it's time for the questions. Where were you born? 00:01:23.265 --> 00:01:29.075 Wilmot, South Dakota in 1925. 00:01:29.075 --> 00:01:33.385 Does your family have any past affiliations with the military? 00:01:33.385 --> 00:01:45.745 My father was in World War I. My brother was in the same wars that I was. He retired as a Marine Colonel. 00:01:45.745 --> 00:01:50.504 Did you hold any jobs before entering the military? 00:01:50.504 --> 00:02:00.715 Yes, uh, I was in a rural area and I worked on farms. My father was a grocer, and I worked in the store. 00:02:00.715 --> 00:02:06.734 What was it like for you working in the store and growing up on a farm? 00:02:06.734 --> 00:02:16.645 Well, I think it was the standard of the day. And, it suited me. 00:02:16.645 --> 00:02:21.995 When and why did you choose to join the military? 00:02:21.995 --> 00:02:53.555 My first airplane ride was when I was four years old. I was enthused and my dreams—well, this brought me toward aviation. And, in those days, the best organized, publicized aviation was military. And I sort of switched my dreams in that direction. 00:02:53.555 --> 00:02:56.254 Did you—were you drafted or did you enlist? 00:02:56.254 --> 00:03:01.324 I enlisted when I was 16. 00:03:01.324 --> 00:03:05.925 And which branch did you enter, and why did you choose that branch? 00:03:05.925 --> 00:03:42.064 Army. And primarily it was National Guard that was nationalized. I had two cousins in it. They deployed to North Africa. My two cousins were killed. I didn't go because of my age, I think. So I continued to serve and I trained and spent time in Camp Ripley in Little Falls, Minnesota. 00:03:42.064 --> 00:03:50.224 The earlier days of service. For your earlier days of service, what type of training or school did you have? 00:03:50.224 --> 00:04:15.034 Primarily infantry training. Rifle range, cross country marches. And I was trained as a drill instructor, which came in handy for the unit I was attached to. 00:04:15.034 --> 00:04:27.824 What was your most vivid memory? Both best and worst parts of your time in training or in school. 00:04:27.824 --> 00:05:09.653 Well, I'll say interesting. We had a cross country toward dusk and it took us through some of the lakes and ponds in Minnesota and swarmed with mosquitoes. In that it was night, we had to orient our maps with a flashlight but not be seen. So I took my poncho, put it over my head, and studied the map. Trapped about 30 some mosquitoes when I did that. And that was unpleasant. 00:05:09.653 --> 00:05:12.425 So that was probably—I would say—your worst part of the training. 00:05:12.425 --> 00:05:16.584 Yeah, that was (laughs). 00:05:16.584 --> 00:05:21.694 What was your first assignment after basic training? 00:05:21.694 --> 00:05:54.653 The unit that was located at Ortonville, Minnesota. It's, uh, at the south tip of Big Stone Lake, which is 36 miles long and is a prominent part of the western border of Minnesota. It comes straight up from Iowa, and it hits Big Stone Lake and makes a jog. 00:05:54.653 --> 00:06:00.144 Do you recall your instructors while you were in school? 00:06:00.144 --> 00:06:08.795 Not by name. I'm not good at remembering names. But yes, I recall my training. 00:06:08.795 --> 00:06:11.605 Were they good instructors in your opinion? 00:06:11.605 --> 00:07:12.264 I thought so. Problem we had was we were on the rifle range with ammunition from World War I stored in Panama, which is moist and not good conditions. So we were advised that if we had a problem and it didn't fire—hang fire, we called it—to not open the breach but call the sergeant instructor. I had one that was poor performance. Pull the trigger and it fired, but the bullet landed in the grass about 10 feet in front of me. But down the line on the rifle range was a man that didn't follow instructions. And as he opened the breach, it fired and he lost an eye. 00:07:12.264 --> 00:07:25.795 Did you qualify for equipment such as vehicles, aircraft, radio, weapons? And if yes, what was the training like with that equipment? 00:07:25.795 --> 00:07:43.154 Well, definitely airplane. When I switched over to the Navy, I was in the aviation cadet program. And if I completed it completely, I would be on my way flying fighter aircraft off aircraft carriers. 00:07:43.154 --> 00:07:50.754 What was the switch like for you, and how did it make you feel switching from the Army over into the Navy? 00:07:50.754 --> 00:08:09.345 It's what I wanted. I wanted to be a carrier pilot, and this offered an avenue, and I was happy about it. 00:08:09.345 --> 00:08:17.024 Did you receive any promotions, and could you tell me about them during your time in the Navy? 00:08:17.024 --> 00:09:03.595 Yes, in the Navy I had sort of a head start going through bootcamp and was a company commander. And that followed me through aviation cadet training, as well. Because I was a corporal in the Army, I had training at, uh—gave me kind of a head start—And then in a long career I got commissioned, and I moved up the ladder in normal sequencing to an O-6 position. 00:09:03.595 --> 00:09:16.315 What would you say was the biggest difference between your enlisted promotions and your officer promotions? 00:09:16.315 --> 00:10:00.965 As an officer it was more wide-ranging at where instead of being a specialist, except for flying, was broad and personnel management. But records and maintenance training—many avenues and responsibility at a higher level—to where, eventually, as command of a ship it is a rather interesting and wide-range responsibility. 00:10:00.965 --> 00:10:08.865 What was the hardest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to? 00:10:08.865 --> 00:10:11.835 Being away from my wife and family. 00:10:11.835 --> 00:10:14.335 Why do you think that was? 00:10:14.335 --> 00:10:52.565 'Cause over long periods of time, it left my wife managing three sons. All different ages, different schools. I can't imagine how she was able to maintain the driving schedule. And when I retired she said, "Okay, now you do the income tax." So she had a wide range of responsibility. And unfortunately, I would love to have been partnering in it, but I was gone so much of the time. 00:10:52.565 --> 00:10:59.125 What was the easiest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to? 00:10:59.125 --> 00:11:25.325 Friendships. Harmony. You're part of a team. You get to know and like one another. Trust. Lean on. Depend. And, um—I think all aspects of military are—you're working with teamwork. 00:11:25.325 --> 00:11:37.924 What were your interactions like with people you encountered during your stateside service? 00:11:37.924 --> 00:12:08.384 Well, it was a variety of things. Often schools—even if you were just with a unit—it is mostly training in the fighter business. We would train over in the desert to fire rockets and bombs and guns and hit the target. Coordinate with the rest of the team. Prepare for combat. 00:12:08.384 --> 00:12:14.294 During your wartime service, what wartime conflicts were you a part of. 00:12:14.294 --> 00:12:31.294 World War II—I didn't actually get shot at by enemy—uh, Korea, Vietnam. I was rather heavily involved in those wars. 00:12:31.294 --> 00:12:36.365 Where and when did you serve in the Korean conflict? 00:12:36.365 --> 00:13:11.705 1952-53 on an aircraft carrier normally operating at the 38th parallel in support of ground forces and destruction of enemy logistics, trains, trucks, ox carts. But of course, air support for our fighters on the ground. Except for one novel incident that I got involved in. 00:13:11.705 --> 00:13:14.995 Do you care discussing that incident? 00:13:14.995 --> 00:29:24.605 Sure. Admiral (Joseph) Jocko Clark was Task Force 77, which was on site on the USS Missouri and was running the naval operations. That was basically the eastern half of Korea, both north and south. And the distance between targets—some of it was very important manufacturing and storage, and logistics is the heart of wars. So our job was to stifle, destroy their capability. And we couldn't get to all the targets because of distance. So Admiral Clark formed a task force of three carriers and probably twenty-some other ships, destroyers, including his battleship. And we moved north off the city of Ch'ŏngjin, which is about a hundred miles south of the Soviet Union and Vladivostok. And we operated there and could then reach all the other targets that we normally wanted to but couldn't. And, uh, I was on the first mission in the morning and we hit targets in a city called Hoeryong. It is right on the Yalu River, which is the border between the Soviet Union and North Korea. These operations stirred up the Soviets. We didn't go to their territory, which is having such—military operation that close to them got them very excited, and they launched lots of airplanes and the radio chatter became heavy and everything, you know, they were very concerned. Well, upon completion of that, I went back and landed on the aircraft carrier, and I was told to get lunch and get ready, and I was going to go off on the next combat air patrol. When the first flight, the weather was good and we were operating pretty much in clear air. In the meanwhile, a blizzard moved in and the bottom of the clouds were around 500 feet and the tops were at 12,000 feet. So we briefed. I got lunch. Briefed. We launched. And we rendezvoused four aircraft below the clouds, and then climbed two for an assignment above the clouds. And while in and on our way, our combat information center notified us that there were inbound bogies, meaning unidentified aircraft. They could be friendly or enemy. We didn't know. Well, as we popped on top of the clouds, I could see, coming from the north, seven contrails in formation headed right at us. I didn't particularly diagnose who they might be, but they were coming from the Soviet Union direction. Well, as they, uh, were getting near us, the leader of the flight had a warning light that his—well, engine warning problem came on and he was directed to take his wingman and return. We would stay over at the task force. So that left me and my wingman to handle the rest of the mission. So, they said to proceed and intercept. So I charged my guns and made everything ready for war and led the two of us climbing in their directions. Well, as they came over, they reversed and headed back from whence they came and out-distanced me. So when we got to 26,000 feet, they were probably 50 miles north of us and—extreme altitude, 50 some thousand feet, I'm sure—but making contrails, so they were easily sighted. But they split into two groups and turned away from each other and started diving out of that altitude. And when they left the contrail level, it was just plain sight to the airplanes. And I no longer could see them and reported that to the ship. And they had also lost sight in that it was a smaller target and they didn't hold 'em on the radar anymore. So I was directed to reverse course and set up a barricade between the last sighting of the aircraft—which I had identified as MiGs (Mikoyan and Gurevic), which meant enemy—and to patrol between the last sighting and the task force. Well, in that turn, four of them came in sort of head-on—ten o'clock position, all firing—and I knew the game was on. So as they passed, I made a hard turn and ended up on the tail of their last guy. And after a short burst, he fell out of formation and started going down, and my wingman left me and followed that aircraft on down. And so he was out of the fight. And I'm alone with the other three airplanes that dove in the other direction—now joining the group. So I am one against six. So they climbed sharply above me to a rate I couldn't maintain, but I was pointed at them and trailing, and they turned around and came back at me as I'm the target. And I was intending to encounter the guy that just lost his wingman, but I lost him in the sun, and I saw the other two already lined up coming at me. So I switched my aim and aimed at the lead aircraft who was already shooting with larger caliber guns and probably having capability to shoot in an encounter at a greater range. Well, when I sighted on them, I was in range and I fired a short burst. And he stopped, fired, and turned away. And I had later on learned enough information that I have surmised that he was probably hit. The other guy, his wingman, now was coming directly at me and shooting, and I turned and sighted on him. And when I was set ready with him, my target, I fired a burst and he quit firing. But he didn't maneuver. He just kept coming and went directly under my airplane. And I was hosing him all the way. So he was definitely going down. Probably killed. So they had now passed me, but the other three planes came in from the other direction and now they were all split into individuals and taking their turns attacking me. Well, my attention at that point was primarily my six o'clock tail position where they were taking turns on me. And I was their target, and my job was to spoil their aim and survive the attack. And as a good pilot, they often made the run, and then they pulled up abruptly to get back in position to make another run, um, at a rate that I couldn't follow. But there was another guy right behind him, so I was pretty much full-time defensive. Occasionally they made a mistake. One of them flew in front of me and I got on and I hit him close in, and pieces of the airplane were coming off, and I had to maneuver to avoid hitting him. Well, it went on like that for thirty-five minutes. Longer than any other such mission I ever heard of—ever. And they had kept up, and I occasionally had the opportunity to have the sights on 'em and shoot. I at one point was on the tail of one, and he was burning, smoking and going down—slowing. And I was going to give an extra burst, but I was out of ammunition. And I looked around and that's the first time I straightened out that much and didn't pay attention behind me and (he was) on me—right on my tail. So I maneuvered hard, and he kept firing, and he hit me with a 37 millimeter, which is an anti-aircraft size ammunition. And it went into the wing butt on the starboard side of my airplane and exploded in the accessory section of the engine, right mid-airplane and shrapnel everywhere. And it severed the cable connecting to the rudder. So I no longer had that control. And it destroyed all the electrical and—not all of it—but all of the hydraulics. So I had a hydraulic controlled N1s (low speed spools). So I had very little control of that, mainly elevator. But luckily out-maneuvering left me pointed directly at where the task force was, so I didn't have to do a lot of turning to head toward that blizzard and the clouds at 12,000 feet. And this guy settled right on my tail, and 300 feet or so—ideal range to shoot me down—and he was just firing away with all of his guns. But I was using my elevator and I would jam it forward then pull it back. And I'm doing this sort of thing. (Williams gestures up and down). So I'm seeing the bullets go under me, then over me. And this just kept out until I got into the clouds. Heavy clouds that he lost sight of me. I lost sight of him. And since I was damaged and the airplane wasn't flying right—was auto rigged—I did a little testing to see what my survival rate might be. And I was too far away from the task force to eject. I had planned on ejecting, but there wouldn't have been anybody there to rescue me. And that was winter time, the conditions of the water and all. And even with the immersion suit that I was wearing flying, I wouldn't lasted more than maybe 18 minutes. So I stuck with the airplane and kept on track to get to the task force, hoping that I could do something to get rescued there. I didn't believe I'd be able to get landed aboard an aircraft carrier in these conditions, and the conditions of the weather and all. But I got undone and was coming in, under the clouds. So I'm visible to them, and unfortunately they were general quarters. And for all the ships there, that means guns free if they have an unidentified target, hasn't been labeled friendly, they're cleared to shoot. Well, the coordination had broken down between air control and the gunnery liaison people. So they shot at me. And my commanding officer had just taken off to be my relief, to go up and be on the air patrol. And saw what was happening and called them off. Said, he's friendly, and they stopped firing. So I started coordinating with the landing signal officer on the Oriskany, the carrier I was flying from and making plans for what's next. And it looked like I might be able to at least approach the carrier, which means there would probably be rescue forces all over the place. And I still was just barely hopeful I would land on the ship. Well, they were loaded with all the ships aft, the tail end, on a straight deck carrier. So they had to all be moved to the front part of the flight deck to provide space for me to land. That took a while. And I used that time to position myself as best as I could to be where I should be when I got the signal to land. And I tested the airplane at that time, and I found out that it wouldn't fly below 200 miles an hour, 170 knots. So I informed him of that. And they talked to the commanding officer of the carrier and he said, "Bring him in. Any speed he wants." Strong winds from the storm and the ship could do 30 knots. So not a problem speedwise, but alignment was another thing. So when I got the signal to land, I was lined up with the ship into the wind for landing, but I couldn't line up going down the deck to make a landing. I would've come across the deck, which is just a short distance, and I'd (have) gone over into the ocean. At least I would be near rescue forces if I lived through the crash. So I was coming in, doing the best I could, and the captain of the ship saw my plight and, being an aviator, he knew the problem—the only time I ever heard of it. But he turned the ship and lined it up with me, and I landed to catch the number three wire, which is perfect. So I'm back aboard with a whole lot of holes in an airplane, but I'm safe. 00:29:24.605 --> 00:29:31.724 So what happened once you landed and had to—did you hear from Washington or— 00:29:31.724 --> 00:35:41.905 Yes, I went to the ready room. The ship was at general quarters. All the pilots that weren't flying were in the ready room, they're stationed in those conditions. And as I came in—I was surprised—they were all smiling, beaming, and no one's saying anything. And my next job is to be debriefed by the intelligence officer. So I asked him, "What's going on here?" And he says, "I had them all pledge that they wouldn't say anything until I got through debriefing. So we went to the debrief area, and he didn't start talking. I said, "What's going on?" He said, "We are waiting for the flight leader." Well, the flight leader was already over the ship and had nothing to do with this combat. But he waited for him, and when he came in with the last one to land, they'd eaten up a fair amount of time. And on the squat box or radio communication between other units of the ship, the intelligence center is calling in Mac, our intelligence officer, "Get in here, Washington's on the line and they want answers. Right now!" We didn't know anything because the intelligence center would send things on our little—sort of TV—saying that I was engaged and so forth. So they knew that. And they knew I was hit. But not the rest of the story. I didn't know! Actually my attention was that hitting somebody and then diverting it immediately to my next problem. So when the whole flight got back, he started with the flight leader to debrief. And then his wingman, which had a little to say—important. And then to me. And I got a little into it of what little I knew. And he just broke it right up. They just kept—"Mac, get in here, get in here." And so he had to make a report, and he made it up, and it wasn't true. And that became Navy history. They don't wanna' know the truth. All—moving on. It's our last line on the combat line, and we're going into Yokosuka for repairs, replenishment—R&R (rest and recuperation)—and I was ordered to report to Admiral Briscoe, the Senior Navy Admiral in the Pacific—Western Pacific. And when I—oh, on the way down there I saw an aviation boatswain's mate. They're the people that handled the aircraft on the carrier. And I told him who I was and I'd been the pilot and I'd like to take a last look at the airplane before going ashore. He said, "I'm sorry, sir, but we pushed it over the side." And so what I heard was that they robbed it of usable parts, and so forth, and got rid of it. Turns out later, that might not be true. But that's what I was told. So I met with Admiral Briscoe—and I knew his aides and stuff—and they brought me to the door. He said, "The Admiral's waiting." And sure enough I did. He closed the door and he said, "Now, what you're about to hear, you could never tell anybody ever." And that sealed it as far as straightening the record—I just couldn't talk about it. But I learned that we had a new capability called NSA (National Security Agency), and a lot of people say no such agency. They were very closed mouth and don't share information except probably with the President and a few others. But they were on the line on a cruiser right off the coast of Vladivostok, where the base from which these MiGs came. And they wanted that young man to know that he got at least three. Okay, but I can't tell anybody. So I didn't for fifty some years. But in the meantime, Soviet Union broke up, and the Russians out of Moscow came up with a story in 1992 talking about this mission, and they put the names of four that were shot down that day. And then a naval historian came up with a book about something "on the Yalu," covering the big engagement during the Korean War, which was mainly the Air Force half, which was on a daily routine of trying to shoot with another down. But it covered this incident. And of the seven, only one returned. And that's not well known, but that's what the history book says. And where was I going with this? Well, concluded my debrief with Admiral Briscoe and went back to the ship, and in short order learned that President Eisenhower had pledged that if elected, he would go to Korea and see firsthand how things are and what he ought to do about it. And then he learned about this and he says, I want to see Royce Williams. And so as he came over, I was set up to meet him. 00:35:41.905 --> 00:35:47.505 Was it hard for you to maintain that secrecy for so many years? 00:35:47.505 --> 00:36:20.000 It was initially 'cause I just saw a bunch of lies and they put it out as though I said—or Rolands, the wingman, or Middleton, the wingman of the flight leader—all having been in the area, but they gave them credit for things they never did and they never personally admitted that they did it until they got used to it. It sounded so darn good that they played along and abused history. 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:31.043 What were your interactions like with local cultures and the people you encountered during either your deployment in Korea or in Vietnam? 00:36:31.043 --> 00:38:02.315 Albeit in an aircraft carrier, I didn't have a lot of opportunity to see others. I was amazed and interested in the visit with President Eisenhower and his staffs and all in Seoul. It was such a battered city. They had two bridges crossing—the river goes through the middle of town—and they were both in the water. I went back and visited after that. They got 22 bridges almost per block crossing the river. And it's just beautiful. What an amazing change in the geography. But I do wanna' say that the Koreans—I can't believe this—have told me they think I saved their nation. And they have been acting like that. And their president came over here, and I met with him, and they presented me with their Medal of Honor. And I've just been inundated with visits from them—bringing presents, and invited me to the consul in Los Angeles, and the consul general's become a friend. I visited their ships. And it's been amazing. 00:38:02.315 --> 00:38:12.704 What kind of friendships and comradery did you form while serving in Korea or in Vietnam, and with whom? 00:38:12.704 --> 00:38:53.014 With the personnel on the ships I was on, primarily your own squadron. You have a ready room, which is the enclosure with seats and briefing materials and whatnot, where you ready yourself for flight. And actually, otherwise, it's sort of a central for that squadron, and people spend a fair amount of time there. Sometimes in the evening you have a movie and so that's kinda' home base outside of your quarters. 00:38:53.014 --> 00:38:58.304 What did you do for recreation when you were off duty? 00:38:58.304 --> 00:39:21.605 Volleyball, running, maybe a little sunbathing—very little. Some reading, some studies, some—you have other assignments besides flying, So you have to pay attention to that as well. 00:39:21.605 --> 00:39:29.824 Do you recall any particularly humorous or unusual events while on shift? 00:39:29.824 --> 00:40:34.364 Found to be a bunch of them (laughs). Well it's—our pilots get shot down, and if they're rescued, they eventually go by way of another ship and then used breeches buoy, which is a sort of a seat that you get on and have wires connecting two ships and you spin and you can send this little trolley thing with the chair back and forth to send supplies or people. And in a big storm, while they're doing that, the ships come together. Sometimes that close without engaging one another (Williams extends arms in front of himself). But that makes that line instead of taught go down like this (lowers arms). The people often get dipped in the ocean and then come snap it back out of it (raises arms). It's kind of an interesting drill. 00:40:34.364 --> 00:40:38.085 Was there something that you did for good luck? 00:40:38.085 --> 00:40:58.085 No, pray! I am religious and I give credit—I should not have survived that incident, but I did—and I did it with other outside help. God was with me. 00:40:58.085 --> 00:41:06.925 Do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you when your service ended? 00:41:06.925 --> 00:43:59.045 In San Diego, I had had a plane crash where I broke 11 vertebrae. I continued to serve and fly, but the medical department made exceptions in my case to where I was authorized certain medications that I should not have been taking and flying. And as time went on and I would indicate need for more help, they would increase it. And I got to a point of a ridiculous amount. And then the flight surgeon, when I came back from our first tour in Vietnam, talked to his friend who was the leader of the medical department at Pensacola, Florida. And they were so surprised they ordered me to go back to Pensacola for an evaluation. Well, during that they said everything is doable. For instance, thyroid normalcy is around two grains. They had me on five and a half grains a day. And they said, no, it's normal. Just stop taking it. Well, there were results. My hair's falling out, I'm just weary. I'm flying day and night off the carrier. And the results of that study was studied in Washington at the Bureau of Navy Medicine and Surgery. They said, this can't be. So, they got the Bureau of Personnel to give me new orders that you authorize for flight in combat, at sea, down at the actual command—at the actual controls. Why is the wing commander, for heaven's sake? I said, How do I run a wing in combat not flying? So I sent myself to the school for the rear seat—the naval flight officer, we call 'em now—now we have their old set of wings and so forth. At that time, it was so early in the game that we were using the wings that were also used for enlisted flight crew. But as time went on, I was a primary player in getting that law changed that didn't allow NFOs (Naval Flight Officers) to have command. So for officers, NFOs, they'd probably quit at lieutenant commander. There's just no further promotion for 'em. Well, we got that law changed and now we have four-star admirals as NFOs. 00:43:59.045 --> 00:44:02.965 Did you return home when your service ended— 00:44:02.965 --> 00:44:03.000 Oh, ah! 00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:04.000 —Sorry, go ahead. 00:44:04.000 --> 00:46:14.405 So where was I? My physical problems were starting to make life tougher. I started dragging the leg and they sent me to the hospital here in San Diego and operated on me. And I came out, and they put me on temporary retirement until I got healthy. Then I got recalled in 1980. This was—I went in early, second month in '42 and then went out in the first of January in '80. So there was a little gap from when I came out of the hospital until I was cleared for active duty again. And meanwhile, I'd had a ship and a whole lot of very important jobs. I had two-star job on Admiral McCabe staff, who was the first Inspector General, CINCPAC (Commander in Chief Pacific Fleet). I was Chief of Staff COMFAIRWESTPAC (Commander, Fleet Air Western Pacific). A whole lot of pretty important stuff. But I came on back and was on COMATG PAC staff (Afloat Training Group Pacific) when I went to the hospital and they operated on me, set me aside, I came back, and I got ordered as commodore with amphibious task force for training. So I took a group of 20 some ships to Hawaii and that sort of thing. And I came back and retired in 1980, built this house, and grew 200 rose bushes. Spent an awful lot of time below the hill (laughs). 00:46:14.405 --> 00:46:22.324 How did you readjust to civilian life? Did you work, or did you go back to school, or— 00:46:22.324 --> 00:46:52.505 I got a master's degree in college. And I worked for a company as vice president of a startup group. And I saw that they had problems, and I excused myself, and said if they straightened out their operation, I'd be pleased to come back. But in the meantime, they went to jail and I did not. 00:46:52.505 --> 00:46:56.824 Did the GI Bill affect you after you completed your service? 00:46:56.824 --> 00:46:57.293 The what? 00:46:57.293 --> 00:47:02.445 The Montgomery GI Bill or the GI Bill for education? 00:47:02.445 --> 00:47:02.652 —Yes— 00:47:02.652 --> 00:47:03.474 Did you use that? 00:47:03.474 --> 00:47:04.755 —Yes, I used that. 00:47:04.755 --> 00:47:06.000 What are your thoughts on it? 00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:57.065 Excellent. Yeah, it helped me feel fulfilled. I didn't actually use the ability—I also, once I completed the business part of it, I went into law and I was working down near San Ysidro and leaving here at about five-thirty in the morning and getting back at ten and spending all day Saturday in my office reading and my wife bringing me coffee. And just—I said, Why am I doing this? And I had no good reason. So I didn't continue in the law business. 00:47:57.065 --> 00:48:01.954 Did you join any veterans organizations? 00:48:01.954 --> 00:48:03.025 What type? 00:48:03.025 --> 00:48:05.164 Veterans. Military veterans— 00:48:05.164 --> 00:48:20.224 Oh, yes. Oh goodness, yes. All of them. Yeah. Legion (The American Legion), VFW (The Veterans of Foreign Wars of the U.S), the DAV (Disabled American Veterans), and a lot of local groups. Mostly aviation oriented. But I have something almost every day. 00:48:20.224 --> 00:48:27.394 Did you continue any friendships after the service and for how long? 00:48:27.394 --> 00:49:09.545 Well, I was taken out of the circle of friends. When I moved out here, I formed a lot of friendships, became engrossed in the Homeowner's Association. Golfing. But as far as contact, when I learned to play the email bit, I stayed in contact with some of my military friends. But most have died, and I just now get spam (smiles). 00:49:09.545 --> 00:49:20.864 These are reflections. So, how has your service impacted your life, your community, your faith, and your family? 00:49:20.864 --> 00:50:56.394 Wow, you covered it all (laughs). Immensely! Especially since an admiral that I had served with the four different times, at a reunion came to me and said, "Hey, Royce, there's more to your story than you've told, isn't there?" I said, Yes, sir. And he says, "Well, do you know that it's no longer classified and you could talk about it?" Well, new world. What am I gonna do with this? Nobody knows enough to even ask me to say anything. So I told my wife and she said, "Oh, Royce!" (laughs). But eventually the word got out, and I'm nominated for the Medal of Honor. And that has spread the word. I'm busy with speaking, visiting engagements. You know, it's impacted it very heavily. As far as the church goes, I've been president of the congregation—active in there until I got so old that I don't do that anymore. I've been busy, yeah. I've been involved—when I engage in something, I pretty well go in wholeheartedly and try to find a slot where they can use me. 00:50:56.394 --> 00:51:06.114 What are some life lessons you've learned from military service? 00:51:06.114 --> 00:51:27.954 Outlook. Keep positive. Try to be happy. Don't get mad—you don't have any enemies. Never did. People wanted to kill me, but that was the government's business. Same here in my part. 00:51:27.954 --> 00:51:36.585 What message would you like to leave for future generations who will view and hear this interview? 00:51:36.585 --> 00:52:06.934 To take their responsibilities in citizenship seriously. And if you can find a way to contribute—and there are lots of ways you can—do something for your country. When you do that, you're doing something for everybody and especially yourself. 00:52:06.934 --> 00:52:17.514 How did you become associated with the city of Escondido in this north San Diego County community? 00:52:17.514 --> 00:54:31.735 1965, I was a waiting commander. My headquarters at Miramar Naval Air Station. And I lived in south Escondido and had church membership in the community. I had three sons that were all at home at that time before they went in the Navy and whatnot. And a lovely wife who was involved in Ikebana Japanese floral arranging. And was very good at it, as you can see her hand right here at home. And a good cook. And I had some guns and enjoyed shooting. So if I wasn't required on the job on a Saturday, we would often—she'd make a picnic lunch and we'd take some of our guns and look for a place to shoot. And I found hidden metals before there were any homes out here. Just a dirt road coming up. And I loved it so much. It's just—it's beauty. So, later on in 1972, I was on Admiral McCabe's staff in Hawaii, and I already had far more than the 30 years of service, and I knew I would be required to leave any day soon and had no place to retire. So wife and I came back—space available—and borrowed my dad's car and came up to Escondido—he lived in San Diego at that time. And headed straight up here once I got my instructions right. And there were only two houses but underground facilities, roads, and beautiful place. And so I bought some property here, which I built on later. And, so from the very beginning, they've had my fingerprint up here. 00:54:31.735 --> 00:54:45.355 Thank you for taking the time to share your recollections of military service. Is there anything you've always wanted to share about your service or veteran experience that you never have? 00:54:45.355 --> 00:55:00.445 No, I've had plenty of opportunity to talk to groups, and I don't withhold anything that I think is of value, so it's pretty well out there. 00:55:00.445 --> 00:55:07.045 What do you wish more people knew about veterans? 00:55:07.045 --> 00:55:37.474 That the very highest percentage of them are genuine, loving Americans that felt they wanted to do something for the sake of everybody in the nation. And that once they get committed there, it's the lifetime and they're an important productive part of community. 00:55:37.474 --> 00:55:52.155 In your unveiling of the journey, what are the lessons learned from your military experience? 00:55:52.155 --> 00:56:23.144 Try and be somewhat organized but realize that there isn't much you're going to accomplish on your own. It's a team sport. Get to know other people. Some you'll find have a lot of guidance, maybe some provide opportunity. You're not gonna' do it by yourself. Have a family if you're so oriented. That's an important part of my life. 00:56:23.144 --> 00:56:24.635 Thank you, Captain Williams. 00:56:24.635 --> 00:56:25.635 You're welcome. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the &#13 ; creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.xml WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Williams, Elmer Royce. Interview November 8th, 2024 Description An account of the resource Elmer Royce Williams is a retired United States naval aviator, nationally lauded for his solo dogfight against seven Soviet pilots during the Korean War. Since his time in service, he has been increasingly recognized for his achievements. He was awarded the Navy Cross in 2023 and has been nominated for the Medal of Honor. In his 2024 interview, Williams described that transformative moment in his life and how it affected the Korean War. He also discussed his childhood, military enlistment, and military training. Approaching 100 years old at the time, Williams reflected on how religion, family, community, civilian work, and veterans' organizations shaped his life after service. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-074 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-08 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Elmer Royce Williams Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Marilyn Huerta Adel Bautista Subject The topic of the resource Korean War, 1950-1953 United States -- Armed Forces -- Veterans Air pilots, Military -- United States. Navy United States. Navy Air combat Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Wilmot (S.D.) Korea Vietnam San Marcos (Calif.) Africa, North Little Falls (Minn.) Ortonville (Minn.) Panama Soviet Union Escondido (Calif.) Hawaii San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Elmer Royce Williams License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1a4cb10af909f7e8e036bfff8b99ea18.pdf 1257c47452e8b4197dc47150c62d1be9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Williams, Elmer Royce. Interview transcript, November 8, 2024. Description An account of the resource Elmer Royce Williams is a retired United States naval aviator, nationally lauded for his solo dogfight against seven Soviet pilots during the Korean War. Since his time in service, he has been increasingly recognized for his achievements. He was awarded the Navy Cross in 2023 and has been nominated for the Medal of Honor. In his 2024 interview, Williams described that transformative moment in his life and how it affected the Korean War. He also discussed his childhood, military enlistment, and military training. Approaching 100 years old at the time, Williams reflected on how religion, family, community, civilian work, and veterans' organizations shaped his life after service. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Elmer Royce Williams Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Adel Bautista Marilyn Huerta Justin Gans Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Wilmot (S.D) Korea Vietnam San Marcos (Calif.) Africa, North Little Falls (Minn.) Ortonville (Minn.) Panama Soviet Union Escondido (Calif.) Hawaii San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Elmer Royce Williams Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WilliamsElmerRoyce_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_transcript Subject The topic of the resource Korean War, 1950-1953 United States--Armed Forces--Veterans Air pilots, Military -- United States. Navy United States. Navy Air combat Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/00489b285627c9a6866f172944112fe8.jpg 35c5e00c18f7596b84d9e666d6751988 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Aviation Cadet Description An account of the resource Williams dressed as an Aviation Cadet at an unknown location and unknown date https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/cbae0566763ce0270fef5d0ce938bcf7.jpg 6cfb3c021344133fed396067d8844597 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource P105 in Saipan Description An account of the resource Williams posing with a P105 plane in Saipan, 1946 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0282d85f8cb82816431c217d88442ad3.jpg c66638dba65f748b3e0953e8422311a5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wedding Day Description An account of the resource Camilla and Elmer Royce Williams on their wedding day in Clinton, Minnesota, June 1, 1947 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4a703a89795ad0efa0544261d8fd56e5.jpg 846e93989267282dbe4cfb29d90d9fdd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Christmas Dinner Description An account of the resource Mark, Elmer Royce, Bruce, and Craig Williams having Christmas dinner, December 25, 1962 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6cb0bce3640d8b5336eeafafe1c22ca4.jpg cba0af63d47198f9508ab961b6e2ec14 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arrival of VF-33 Description An account of the resource Commander Neilsen T.L., Camilla Williams, and Elmer Royce Williams at the arrival of VF-33 from Key West, U.S. Naval Air Station Oceana, Virginia Beach, Virginia, January 2, 1965 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Williams, Elmer Royce. Photographs, Various dates. Description An account of the resource Five photos related to the oral history of Elmer Royce Williams. Photograph #1 depicts Williams dressed as an Aviation Cadet at an unknown location and unknown date. Photograph #2 depicts Williams posing with a P105 plane in Saipan, 1946. Photograph #3 depicts Camilla and Elmer Royce Williams on their wedding day in Clinton, Minnesota, June 1, 1947. Photograph #4 depicts Mark, Elmer Royce, Bruce, and Craig Williams having Christmas dinner, December 25, 1962. Photograph #5 depicts Commander Neilsen T.L., Camilla Williams, and Elmer Royce Williams at the arrival of VF-33 from Key West, U.S. Naval Air Station Oceana, Virginia Beach, Virginia, January 2, 1965. Click on the thumbnails to view the full images in more detail. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource undated - 1962 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/112b21d9155ea35c00877f0832c5a9a6.pdf be319453aba0694528cf6ede19e42c5e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wyland, Mark. Interview transcript, April 10, 2024 Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Mark Wyland on 04/10/2023. In this interview, Wyland discusses his upbringing and family background, including his family business in Pine Tree & Lumber. Wyland explains his education background along with studying in Germany for a year, and how he was motivated to choose a career in politics. Wyland expanded on his career on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board, becoming a member of the California State Assembly from 2000-2006, and then being elected into the California Senate in 2006, serving until 2014. Wyland reflects on his trials and tribulations throughout the years, offering his thoughts and suggestions on the current state of American politics and how it can be improved. Wyland also speaks on K-12 school curriculum, Native American History, and the importance of Oral History being taught in the classroom. This oral history interview was made possible by the Ellie Johns Foundation stewarded by the Rancho Santa Fe Library Guild. It was created as part of CSUSM's University Library/History Department internship in oral history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mark Wyland Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ryan Willis Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-04-10 Subject The topic of the resource Bills, Legislative California. Legislature. Assembly California. Legislature. Senate International relations Legislation -- California Lumberyards -- California -- Escondido Oral history Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century School boards -- California -- Escondido Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) California Germany Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Mark Wyland License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10_transcript Community history History Department internship Politics and governance