19 10 208 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/694828807984d331d6d9c34d9ef41c55.mp3 b0e3053193e3e877f17a5c3dfe7d6e7a Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spackman, Amy. Interview February 23, 2017. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Amy Spackman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-066 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. community history Description An account of the resource Amy Spackman began working in the tasting room at Mission Brewing in San Diego after switching careers from being a preschool teacher. In this interview she discusses her experience breaking into the San Diego craft brewing industry, her continuing education, and what it is like to be one of few women in the industry. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-17 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) El Cajon (Calif.) Subject The topic of the resource Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Brewchive(r) Community history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Amy Spackman OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SpackmanAmy_DownieJudith_2017-02-13.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. San Diego brewing;women in brewing;Mission Brewing;brewing industry;craft brewing OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Spackman, Amy. Interview February 23, 2017. SC027-066 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm San Diego brewing ; women in brewing ; Mission Brewing ; brewing industry ; craft brewing Amy Spackman Judith Downie sound SpackmanAmy_DownieJudith_2017-02-13.mp3 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/694828807984d331d6d9c34d9ef41c55.mp3 Other audio Oral history Amy Spackman began working in the tasting room at Mission Brewing in San Diego after switching careers from being a preschool teacher. In this interview she discusses her experience breaking into the San Diego craft brewing industry, her continuing education, and what it is like to be one of few women in the industry. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:33.000 This is Judith Downie, oral historian for California State University, San Marcos, on February 23rd, 2017, collecting an oral interview from Amy Spackman of Mission Brewing, and she has signed the authorization documents and has been given a copy of the authorization, and we will now be starting the history. (Unintelligible) These are just some sample questions here. You definitely don't have to answer these questions. You can riff off in any direction that you want. 00:00:33.000 --> 00:01:29.000 Cool. All right. So, my name is Amy Spackman, I live in National City and yes, I am over twenty-one. Thankfully. All right. (Unintelligible). Okay, good. So pretty much how I got started working with beer, I taught preschool for seven years and got really burnt being in the field. It was something I was really passionate about before, and then it just wasn't really doing it for me any longer. And I didn't feel that it was something fulfilling. And I was looking at, you know, I'm in my early mid-twenties, what am I going to do to change that? I didn't want to become my dad that is counting down until Friday and when the weekend is and dreading that and bringing on that negativity so early on. So I decided to just quit, essentially. My director was really supportive of it. 00:01:29.000 --> 00:02:28.000 I told him, I said, this just isn't working out anymore, and I need to do something that's more authentic. And, it was an interesting couple of months of searching, honestly. I found out that coffee wasn't what I wanted to do. That wasn't a big enough passion. Even though it's a serious love, but beer was always something, and jokingly, the kids kind of drove me to drink beer all the time, and I was spending more and more time kind of nerding out on those things and collecting bottles with my husband. And it just dawned on me, why not try to work in beer? It’s San Diego, It's--why not? So, just kind of randomly set out some emails, and I was hoping, you know, am I gonna be taken seriously, I’m a teacher? What are they going to see as a value for me coming from preschool that's already viewed as a daycare. How is that going to apply into a brewery? So that was a really scary thing, honestly. I didn't know what was going to happen, if anything was going to happen, am I wasting my time? 00:02:28.000 --> 00:03:37.000 And then I got a response back from Twisted Manzanita in Santee, which bless their hearts at the time for bringing me on, for giving me the chance to jump over and seeing that as a teacher coming into beer, I had organization and things of the sort. And so I did some office work for them and then somehow just drifted into the tasting room, due to people not showing up for shifts and had no formal training whatsoever on anything. I didn't know how to change a keg. I didn't know how to, I hadn't worked cash register since my first job when I was in high school. I hadn't done any of these things and it was just, you were thrown out and the brewers really taught me everything. And I think that was one of the biggest things I loved about beer was that no one treated you like you were lesser because you didn't know. And it was always a learning opportunity, and ever since I started at that particular brewery, it was always something I was learning new every single day. And I thought that was the coolest thing that it was a community and that you were all in it together, even if the particular place wasn't the greatest. 00:03:37.000 --> 00:04:54.000 They've now since gone under, which is no surprise, but finding Mission was one of the best things because I had gone out into that job search again. I thought, oh God, you know, was this a reputable enough brewery? Am I gonna be able to get somewhere else? What am I going to do? And thankfully Mission just really just popped up, and it's extremely close to the house. And there were so many opportunities presented early on. I really connected with the staff right away, which was really cool to see such warmth. So now I do tours, which back to the teacher thing, you know, managing crowds, being organized, timely, things of the sort that was really helpful. And so that was nice to bring those skills over into that side. So I do tours here, I bartend, and I am also in charge of our merchandise. So that's been really fun to have a variance in the schedule and also be so close to the house and be with this--Mission (Brewery) I kind of consider it my extended family. I'm here all the time, all the time, and everyone is really sweet. And again, if I don't know something I'm not afraid to go ask another brewer or one of the supervisors of another department that I don't know something about, and they're more than happy to teach me. 00:04:54.000 --> 00:05:48.000 And I think that's the coolest thing, is again, that community furthered. It's a little daunting sometimes being, going from a woman-dominated field to the opposite. That was an interesting change being like I'm one of two, but here at Mission, we have so many. Our offices probably got five or six women that work in there. We've got three female bartenders, no female brewers at this point, but it's just really cool to have that element going on. And I think that's just really cool. But it, it can be kind of daunting to prove yourself that, you know, beer is a passion rather than the aesthetics behind the bar pouring a beer for somebody that doesn't quite understand that you know about beer. So that's why I've really been interested in continuing school. 00:05:48.000 --> 00:06:38.000 So I've been enrolled in the San Diego State (University) Business of Craft Beer program, finishing up my last class for the level one certification in May. And then I'm gonna take a break for baseball season, because that's a busy season for us and then go back probably in the fall to finish up my level two. And then I just judged my first beer competition, which was really scary and daunting at AleSmith (Brewing Company). And it was a really cool learning experience. I'm looking more into getting BJCP (Beer Judge Certification Program) certified and studying for my Cicerone test, hopefully in December to take that. So there's really no end all in my goal for where I want to go with beer, honestly. It's more, I like having my fingers in different pots ’cause it keeps it--there's variety, and I like that. I feel like you'd never know everything, and that's the coolest thing. 00:06:38.000 --> 00:07:28.000 I don't know anything about brewing. I'd be super excited to learn more about that. But yeah, the whole reason behind going to school is because it was something I was passionate about and because it was cool to finally learn something that was exciting. And again, you’d never know everything, and I've just wanted to get every beer book, read it all. I love obviously going out and drinking lots of beers at different places and every brewery has its own element. It's just a different family at each place, and I think that's the coolest, and for the most part, I feel like San Diego breweries are a big family and we all support each other in various ways, whether it's by sharing ingredients or sharing ideas, or just acknowledging that you do the same work. I think that's just the coolest thing. Um, yeah. 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:31.000 How many years have you been here at Mission? 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:49.000 Sunday will be my one year. So probably two years in beer now, coming up on two, which doesn't, it's really nothing. There's lots of people here that started real, way earlier on. So it's, it's been cool to jump into the school side of things to kind of make up for the lost time but it's been, it's been fun. 00:07:49.000 --> 00:08:25.000 And the involvement with the Pink Boots Society has been really exciting to collaborate with other women as well and learn about scholarship opportunities and network and support each other. I think that's a really fun organization. We just had a meeting last night, and it was, it was exciting. Big fan. It's neat to see the full circle of women coming back into beer, more in the spotlight from historical times to now that it's coming back around. And I think that's really cool. 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:35.000 Okay. So considering your, your educational process right now, it looks like you're planning on being in beer for a long time. 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:42.000 Yeah, I, I can't see myself leaving the industry honestly. It's not an option at this point. 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:58.000 Well let me go back to Twisted Manzanita. Since you did work there for a little bit, did they have any women working there with brewers? I mean, since they're gone, it's kind of like, you know, to piece in a little bit of missing history here. 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:51.000 There were no female brewers at Manzanita. There was a woman that ran the packaging line. Maybe one that volunteered once in a while on a very informal basis. And aside from our HR lady, that was really it. And one or two female bartenders, but they were just there to have a job. There was really no love kind of showing for beer. It was just more of a, uh, it was just definitely a job for them. And for me, I really liked to connect in with that early on with the customers being like, oh, well, what do you like to drink? Well, let me show you, let me teach you about this style. Let me show you that IPAs aren't scary. Let me show you that dark beers aren't scary. It was, it was cool. But yeah, Manzanita, there was no women there whatsoever. 00:09:51.000 --> 00:10:14.000 Let me think here for a minute, there was something on the tip, the tip of the skull and it's gone. Other than Pink Boots, do you see any formal or informal networking for the women in, in beer in San Diego? 00:10:14.000 --> 00:11:12.000 Pink Boots is kind of the main one. Um, I want to say, and I could be wrong on this. I know inside QUAFF (Quality Ale & Fermentation Society), the homebrewer society, I want to say there's one called Suds that's for women, but I haven't broken into the home brew community myself. So I'm, I'm really unsure on that, but that's something that I'd like to explore, but in order to brew, there's lots of there are home brew, um, there's lots of things that need to happen first. Like making space in our house and having an entire day off to make the beer for the first time. But I don't know if I'd ever want to open my own brewery, honestly. Once my husband gets out of the military, we're looking at, you know, making beer more frequently, ‘cause he'd have more time, but at the point of San Diego’s saturation with breweries, I don't know if I would be bold enough to believe that our short term home brewing would be good enough to open a place. 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:15.000 So does, does your husband brew? 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:31.000 We are gonna, we have the beginnings of a, of a brew system, but we haven't done it yet. Um, it's ready to go just when both of us have the same day off and an eight-hour chunk of time, which, it's been awhile. 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:46.000 Oh yeah. Martin at Quantum (Brewing) invited me to come down ‘cause I met him and I said, I don’t really, I don’t understand the brewing process. What’s actually entailed. So he said, come on down one morning when I’m brewing. And I went down and I was just like, oh, this is a lot more than I thought. 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:56.000 The homebrewing element, that’s a little scary. I can watch the guys do it all day, and I get the gist of it. But as far as making it actually happen in the kitchen, that's a little more frightening. 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:08.000 It seemed like there was a lot of watching temperatures and a lot more carefulness to it than I would have thought because of just my lack of knowledge about the brewing process. 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:42.000 Much more science oriented, much more math, which the two of those things are not my strong points. Which is why I'm letting everyone else brew. I’ll help you name a beer. I'll do more of the artsy side of things. But one of my favorite things, though, about brewing here, watching them at least, is coming in and the smell of the brewery. It's the most beautiful smell. Nothing bad can happen to you when that smell is going on. It's, it's just magical. Love that. That's my favorite. 00:12:42.000 --> 00:13:22.000 And then as far as any mentors, like I said, pretty much everybody in all different departments have, I mean, whether it's been at Manzanita or at Mission, everyone's been so great extending a hand or explaining what their positions are, like, how to overcome something that's challenging or encouraging you to continue on with school. There's, it's just kind of been a work of everybody. And I think that's really nice to be around, such a supportive, positive environment. And even on the worst day, it's beer at the end of the day. And just kinda reminds me to really appreciate what we're doing. 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:43.000 Okay. I remembered the question I had. You mentioned QUAFF and not breaking into that yet. So from your perspective, do you see not an adversarial position, but a division between QUAFF as a home brewer group and you know, the more professional, professionally-focused groups? 00:13:43.000 --> 00:14:07.000 I mean, there's definitely a lot of professionals are in QUAFF. I want to say, I think it's Jeff (Wiederkehr) from Burning Beard he's in that as well. So a lot of the pro brewers are in QUAFF as well, kind of supporting the people starting out in their kitchens and things of the sort. So again, all comes back to that support system. 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:18.000 Because I haven't reached out to QUAFF yet. I mean, I've seen, uh, Sheldon Kaplan's SUDS documentary (SUDS COUNTY, USA) where he relies a lot on QUAFF members. 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:19.000 Okay. 00:14:19.000 --> 00:15:20.000 Because that was done in 2000, I can't remember the exact date, but it was really kind of before a lot of the commercial breweries opened up. So he didn't have a huge body of those people to go to, although he did interview Peter (Zien) and Skip (Virgilio) and a lot of the other, the other originals, the long-termers, but he didn't, he didn't get to the newer people. And I'm, I will say I'm really thrilled to see the Mission name, because when I came to Pink Boots, and I talked about Katherine Zitt, poor woman, her unfortunate name, um, her husband did own Mission Brewing for a while. Interesting. And, of course, that was all pre-prohibition, but he did have San Diego Consolidated and Mission, he purchased later, but it was always with a group of investors. So he wasn't the solo owner, but you know, I'm like, “Oh good. You know, this ties back to Kate and you know, my pre-prohibition brewing.” 00:15:20.000 --> 00:16:10.000 It's really cool. Um, I've always been kind of a nerd for history, honestly. Um, I think it's just really cool, and being born and raised in San Diego, it's, it's really neat to be a part of one of the originals, um, and be able to explain that it's one of my, when I give our tours, that's one of my favorite parts to explain that to people, um, besides the brewing process, it's the history and how it came back. And, um, it's just cool that it's, it's still in existence. And, um, every customer has been just in awe that the name’s, you know, been revived and the building is really cool. Everyone thinks that's where we are over off of Washington. We're not. And it's cool to say we haven't been in that space since 1919 ‘cause prohibition. And, um, it's just really cool. It's, it's neat that both these buildings are still standing, um, and haven't been smushed over for condos or a stadium— 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:32.000 It would be wonderful if Mission could get back to the original building. That would be really, really cool because so many of our buildings are gone. It's, it's real sad. And so for me, as a historian, to see things like that gone, I get real, there's goes another piece of our history. Now, have you looked at the BEERology exhibit at the Museum of Man? What did you think of that? 00:16:32.000 --> 00:17:51.000 Yeah. Um, I thought it was a little small, um, but small is not always bad. Uh, I felt like there was a lot of things that kind of were left out. I mean, especially could have been more of an ode to modern day, um, beer and, um, I just, I feel like it could have been a lot more, uh, female centered for sure. Um, it was just, it was, it was a neat exhibit. I think it's really a, it's a really good start. Um, I feel like there's a lot more to go and always things to add, um, especially for how long beer has been around and how many, I mean, I, I feel like it did a really good job showcasing the different cultural varieties of traditional beers, but there's a lot more that could have been added to that, and beer’s everywhere, um, on, in all different countries. And, and I feel like it kind of only focused on, um, more Latin America and their influence in making beer. I would've liked to see more European influence of, you know, the alewives and things. Um, and yeah, again, more, more modern acknowledgements to San Diego’s roots, since it is featured at a San Diego museum. 00:17:51.000 --> 00:18:52.000 Have you ever been to the San Diego History Center and looked at their (exhibit) ‘cause they actually did an exhibit in 2013 on craft beer, or beer brewing, in San Diego. Their remnants of the online exhibit are still up there. Cool. But I've actually been into the materials because Jane Connelly, the archivist there has kind of kept everything. Those are the materials I've been mining for information about the women in San Diego beer, because there's really not much of anything else. And in the San Diego History Journal, which is available for free online, um, Ernie Liwag has written a couple of articles. The second one was really kind of a recap of his first, but it did have a little bit more information, but it's interesting because he doesn't mention women. It's just, you know, he does talk about Mission. He does talk about, you know, brewing and the effect of prohibition and stuff, but, uh, yeah, it's uh, so that's, that's real fun to, to mine that for interesting things. 00:18:52.000 --> 00:20:24.000 And then of course that's part of what we want to do with the Brewchive is save the history of what's going on in San Diego brewing and North County, including North County working with the San Diego region. But of course, with my focus on women's history, I'm like, you know, “I got to get the women,” because right now with what I'm running across with Kate is she's almost never mentioned anywhere. And she's not mentioned really in connection with San Diego Consolidated Brewing, except for once or twice in the newspaper when J. Henry her husband would be mentioned. And then, yeah. And, or, and of course he was always Mrs. J H Zitt in all the society pages and stuff, but what little prison she even had there. But I was looking to see, um, if there was any reaction to prohibition or to the temperance movement or anything, because as a woman, she would have been in women's groups. She was very active evidently in the floral society. And she's going to be running into women who are not going to approve of her husband's source of income, and the died childless. So probably any papers they had are gone. Yeah. I'm kind of hitting a brick wall on developing anymore about her, but it's been real interesting because absence says so much as well as presence. Yeah. So, yeah, but I'm just determined to not let our women now escape from us, you know that's, that's gotta be recorded. 00:20:24.000 --> 00:21:25.000 That's really cool. Uh, like one other thing I thought of, um, is with that career change, going from preschool to beer, um, it was really hard convincing some of the older members of my family, um, that it's a reputable industry, that it is really such a big impact in San Diego, that San Diego is very notable for their beer. Um, the west coast in general is notable for their beer, and I'm not going into a career that's just willy nilly. I'm not partying all the time, though that happens. Uh, it's trying to show those that wonder why you would abandon something reputable, as teaching, and go off into this. Um, that's been kind of a struggle to show that. So I think that's kind of my push for so much extra school, um, is to show the people that just assume, “Oh, you're, you know, you just haven't figured it out yet. You're just doing a job like this to tide you over, and you're just pouring beer,” and it's, it's bigger than that. 00:21:25.000 --> 00:22:11.000 And I think that's a really interesting point to bring up is the family support and the, the exterior perception of what the beer, the beer industry is like, the beer community is like, and you, especially as a woman in this beer situation. So thank you for bringing that up because that is not something I would have thought about. Um, so that brings me another question that I can add to my list. You know, what, what is your family or, you know, what kind of, not just your in-the-industry mentors, but what kind of support or reaction have you gotten from those around you that you love and interact with outside of the beer? 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:55.000 I feel like now it's, um, now that it's been a while and they see how much school has gone through and, um, all the resources when they come over, I've got books all over the coffee table. I think they respect it a lot more now. And it's, it's been really cool to bring in family, um, to show them the facility and, and explain, uh, veer a little more in depth, or to bring a beer out to my parents, they typically don't drink beer, or if they do it's, it's not that stellar. Um, it's, it's been really fun to introduce them to that. And I think people get it now. Um, and I think they see that it really lights me up, and I'm just really into it. Um, so that's been, that's always exciting. So anytime I get a chance to show something new at, the brewery, I'm like, “Oh good.” 00:22:55.000 --> 00:23:43.000 You know, or “I can teach you about this beer. I can invite you to a bottle share at our house,” um, which we love to host. Uh, we have so many beers that we cellar, uh, we're needing a second and maybe a third refrigerator, um, ‘cause we have so many. And it's just fun to share that with people or, um, when super like, “oh, it's beer’s gross,” or “I don't like beer.” That's my favorite person to talk to. It's like, “Well, do you like coffee? Do you like chocolate? Then you'll probably like a stout.” And finding the parallels between food and beer has been cool. Um, it's made me want to start cooking, which that's amazing and cooking with beers is really fun. Um, it's, it's cool to find a really neat, uh, like smoked Schwarzbier and marinate a tri tip in it and then make that. 00:23:43.000 --> 00:25:05.000 And my husband's like, “Wow, when did this happen?” And like, it's weird. Um, it motivates me to do things. Um, but, uh, one other thing I think is cool is that, um, the breweries are expanding down into South Bay. Um, we recently purchased a house about like four years ago and being in National City in an area that was kind of a beer free zone, it's really neat to see breweries start to creep down in there. Um, Machete Alehouse (Beer House) is I think it's Ale House is the rest of their name. Um, but it's a husband and wife that own it. And she's the sweetest she's always really, um, great, um, always really welcoming of women coming in. And it's so neat to see it pushing into South Bay into communities, like you said, that don't necessarily, um, reach out for craft beer. Um, that a lot of the, my neighbors, you know, to their bits kind of go into the liquor store, and they'll buy like a forty pack of Natty Ice for $4, when they wonder, “Why would you spend eight bucks on a 22 ounce of beer?” Um, and it's, it's cool to expose them to that, um, and be like, “Hey, this is, you know, this is an offering at your liquor store next to you, try this out” And then, you know, maybe they'll get into the community more as well and kind of find some advancement. But it's, it's great to see it pushing into National City now. 00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:20.000 Do you think National City is, um, because of the economic basis or was National City just not legislated for breweries? I know that's something that winds up having to be done in every single city. 00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:46.000 I know Chula Vista was a lot more welcoming to the breweries coming in, um, National City with it. Um, when I was a kid, there was lots of crime. Um, it's slowly kind of fading out now. So I don't, I, it could be a factor of that. Um, of seeing breweries is more of an invitation for those activities to go on. But, um, it could be a city thing. It could be, I don’t know. 00:25:46.000 --> 00:26:45.000 I mean, I can see a business person looking at that saying, you know, looking at the demographics, looking at the income level, looking at the legis—the rules and regs that the city has passed, you know. Is it a welcoming climate or not? Because you know, up in North County, I've been watching Indian Joe, I drive past Indian Joe every single day. And he's had his Coming Soon sign up now for a year? Or better? And, you know, and yet other breweries in Vista have seem to be opening up. So it's like, is it just he's had problems or is just, uh, did these other breweries that opened up--have they been in the process as long, but just not as visible as a big, giant sign on a building right next to Highway 78? Yeah. So I actually, one of our faculty members knows, um, the owner, and she goes, “Oh, and as soon as he's opened, you know, we'll go there and have a beer,” and I'm thinking, “Great, ‘cause I would love to pick his brain and see what's going on. 00:26:45.000 --> 00:28:35.000 But I know that Vista was very welcoming to a winery that was in Oceanside and then they moved into Vista and then they kind of collapsed and fell apart through no fault of the cities. But they did struggle a little bit with getting it there, even though Vista was supporting them to move in. It was like once they started trying to actually go through the process, it wasn't all that simple. And so, and I know the SUDS documentary there is mentioned in there. I think it was Skip Virgilio. But I'm not, I could be wrong, was saying how, when he went to get licenses or no, it was Chris Kramer of Karl Strauss. He said, “When we went to get licensed, you know, the city didn't know what to do with us. And we said well, what's Alpine doing or whoever it was?” And they didn't know that because nobody had ever gone to get a license. And so that kind of showed that, and of course, Chris didn't mean to expose somebody else, but he just said, “Well, you've got one open. Why can't we do the same model?” It turned out there was no model because the others hadn’t followed the process. So yeah, the legislation and all that is always real tricky and something of interest to me because I also, um, we're a government documents depository, so I kind of like that whole legal issue thing and the constraints that our government puts on us many times probably for our own good, but in other ways it really stifles things. But then, um, there was another question I had. Generally with an oral history, I'm just supposed to let you talk, but it's like, okay. You know, questions are coming up. And I can certainly ask and, um, oh, the Cicerone. Tell me about that process please. 00:28:35.000 --> 00:30:56.000 Oh man. So I believe the, uh, well, the whole process of Cicerone in the beginning is the certified beer server, which, um, a lot of breweries require you to have. Manzanita was encouraging and paid for it. Um, all of the $80 that it was. Um, but it was just general beer keeping, um, basic stuff. Um, I feel like that should be a requirement for all servers to know, um, which most places will require it, but I think it's just great knowledge. Um, so that's the level one. It's a recognized level and it's kind of not um, and then the next level is Certified Cicerone, and that's when you can officially call yourself a Cicerone. Um, once you pass that test, it's about 400 bucks and I believe there's a written component, a tasting, and a practical. Uh, one of our girls here just took her test, um, for the second time, and, um, it's a lot of studying independently. Um, you have to learn about hop flavors. Um, there's a syllabus outlined online, about what is, could possibly be on the test. Um, but it's really intense. I have had a couple of friends take it, uh, mixed, mixed reviews on how they did. Um, but, and then the next level is advanced Cicerone, I believe, uh, which is cool. One of my, uh, girlfriends, uh, over at Modern Times, she's the only Advanced Cicerone in southern California as a female, uh, which I think is really cool. Um, and then up from there is Master, and that's the highest level that you can go. So a Cicerone is kind of the equivalent of a Som (sommelier) for beer world. Um, but, uh, yeah, that's definitely something I want to, to go with. Uh, just studying independently sometimes goes better than expected or not expected. Um, all, I think I'm going to try to take it once I get out of the SDSU program. Um, so I feel like I'll have a, at least a general gist to refer back on to supplement any extra readings I've done. Um, cause I'll remember it back from a class. So that's kinda what I'm waiting for, but yeah, Cicerone is definitely something that's in the sights for sure. Um, and once I attain Cicerone, I'd be interested in going on to the other levels as well, because like I said, you never know everything, and there's so much about beer, there there's so many different avenues that you can go down and, um, you just you'll never know it all. And that's the coolest thing. 00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:35.000 And then you also mentioned, you know, cooking with beer and things like that. Um, something I've seen that I find very interesting is the, um, the tie of food trucks to tasting rooms and breweries. I mean, I realize it's a symbiotic relationship and the fact that the food trucks have to go get that health license because that's a whole different thing than what the breweries have to do. But, um, do you see that continuing, do you think that maybe it's more breweries are going to be going into opening their own eating establishments? 00:31:35.000 --> 00:32:45.000 Um, I mean, I know for us, everyone assumes because we're so large that we have a kitchen and there's also The Mission around the corner that serves the pancakes that everyone confuses us with. Um, and I have to explain to the customers, no, we're not the pancake place that's around the corner. Um, were the breweries having food trucks, a lot of it's, uh, licensing, um, that they can have a kitchen or there's not enough space. And it already is so costly to open a facility that extra kitchen staff and, um, again, all the regulations for health codes that would add a burden to people. Uh, so I think it's really cool to have the variety of food trucks and again, um, extend the community of support to, you know, expose another local business, to help out and partner up. Um, and also for the safety of the customer as being able to eat some food after they've had a few drinks and, um, hopefully manage themselves safely and accordingly. Um, it's always cool when there is a food truck at a brewery and you didn't expect it, or it's one of your favorite ones and you’re hanging out at the breweries a lot, you really get to know the owners of the food trucks and it's, it's kind of a fun relationship to follow them and support their journey as well. 00:32:45.000 --> 00:33:04.000 Yeah, I've noticed on some of the websites, they'll actually have the schedule of which food trucks are coming, and they'll actually say, “We're going to be brewing this, which we'll go with the food on that truck that day,” which I think is really wonderful. I've also met, um, I've talked to Johna (Richards) and met Tony of So Rich chocolates. Oh yeah. That chocolate. Oh my gosh. 00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:10.000 They’re my favorite chocolatier ever. 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:25.000 Oh, I had to email them cause I, I was at the Craft Beer Expo in Sacramento and I did, um, Dr. Bill's wine—or beer and chocolate tasting at 9:00 AM on a Saturday morning. And I was just like, “Really 9:00 a.m. beer.” 00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:28.000 Sounds perfect to me. Sounds a little late for me, honestly. 00:33:28.000 --> 00:34:17.000 Then you mentioned, you know, that they were in Vista and I was like, perfect. So, yeah. And I find that interesting that they've tied themselves and it's actually, it's funny because now that I think about it several years ago, um, I knit, and Thursday nights to get together with my knitting group. And there was one woman in there whose daughter was making cupcakes with beer and taking them in to a brewery up in North County. I won't say who, because that was probably highly illegal because it was just, you know, home baked beer-infused cupcakes, and everybody was just raving about them and stuff. And I know her daughter didn't continue to pursue that line, but I was like that, you know, that certainly seems like something that you could do because up here, all these breweries popping up, you know, you can start doing, you know, baked goods with beer. 00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:58.000 I love, uh, making, uh, the stout cupcakes. And again, back to I'd rather bake than cook. Um, but I was choosing a different beer every time I made it to see how it tasted and how it changed it. And then obviously keeping a beer for myself ‘cause I was realizing I was shorting the recipe because I was drinking it in the process of convincing myself to bake. Um, but that's fun, but I mean I'll bake, uh, treats with beer from the brewery and bring it to, um, the employees. Um, just as a thank you for all the kindness and yeah, Fall (Brewing Company?) has been requesting some more cookies from me. Um, I just heard from them last night. 00:34:58.000 --> 00:36:00.000 But yeah, actually, um, for one I also hike and one Friday, if we hike on Friday nights, we wind up at one of the local breweries. We were at Rip Current or whatever. And I brought chocolate cupcakes with chocolate coffee frosting, and everybody was raving about how good they were with the beer. And I had not even thought about it. It was just like, yeah, we want to celebrate Ken's birthday, and I'll bring him some cupcakes because he's a single older man that I know doesn’t bake, you know, and I just wanted to do something besides chocolate, although chocolate is always good. So I threw the coffee, instant coffee in there, and it was just perfect with the beers that they were drinking. I'm a very lightweight beer drinker. I don't, I think it's something that you have to work yourself up to. And when I was in Sacramento, um, I did get introduced to fruits sours, which were, you know, I was like, "Oh, okay. I can, I can do this.” It's not real overly coffee flavored or burnt flavored or hoppy or anything like that. 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:11.000 Sours are kind of my final frontier of, of beer. Um, my first love was stouts because I drank an obscene amount of coffee because of the preschool. Um, and that was just, I could— 00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:15.000 That seems like a real parallel level of a strength. 00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:59.000 Definitely. Um, and I could, I mean, I just, I love stouts. Um, I can drink a stout when it's a hundred degrees in July, and it's just what my most favorite style. I always default to it if I can't figure out what I want on the board and that's what I go for. Um, and then IPAs were a slow venture in, um, and with working in beer, presenting beer to new people that don't drink it all the time or they're intimidated by it. Um, I thought in order to like craft beer in the beginning that you had to love IPAs and the friends of mine that were presenting these beers to me, they were so aggressive and so intense that looking at, if I were to give that same beer to somebody new, there'd be no way. Um, and I think that's why I shunned IPAs until I finally zeroed in on what are my favorite hops? 00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:57.000 Um, why do I like this? Can I drink more than just a sip or two of this beer? And thus it went forward, but sours, I'm still trying to keep an open mind on, um, uh, try not to shut out. It's a slow process, but, um, yeah. And then the beer and cheese, that changed my life. Um, I thought I didn't like cheese until I had it with beer at Dr. Bill's class and now I go into a fromagerie, and I just, I spend all kinds of money and it's not so much that I'm pairing up the beers with the cheeses, but it just complements it so well. And, uh, we led, uh, or I led a beer and cheese pairing here with Smallgoods from La Jolla, it's husband and wife who own it. And that was really fun to see the parallels between beer and cheese and explain that to and make it accessible. And why is this beer grade? And, um, she was able to bring the cheese side of things, which I'm still lost on, but, um, it's opened up a box for me. 00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:17.000 It sounds almost like you could very easily find yourself in, again, kind of going back to your educational background, into tastings and marketing and you know, a more formalized education environment with beers, you know, kind of like what Dr. Bill or, you know— 00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:42.000 Yeah. I would love to teach. Um, I'm back when I was with the preschool, I always thought about teaching a children's literature class someday, um, just for fun. And, uh, once I get way more school to be considered anything reputable, um, I'd be interested in maybe doing something like that, even if it was just a community college level or just a workshop that, you know, we offered here. I think that'd be fun. 00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:44.000 Children’s books and beer. 00:38:44.000 --> 00:39:57.000 Um, I, yoga is a hobby of mine and, um, as I'm teaching my girlfriends, I say that you can either pay me in beer or you can enter a competition. And if it's a beer that I haven't had, you get an extra entry credit. Um, but I'm, I call myself the Craft Yogi and, uh, it's just the whole thing is we do yoga and then we will get a beer afterwards, which seems to be, um, I know there's lots of other females running the same kind of thing with the hobby yoga, and can't think of any other ones, but we just hosted one the other evening, but it's, it's great. Anything you can do to get women to drink beer. Um, so I feel like it's also a stigma of women don't drink beer. And if you are the only girl that orders a beer out with your girlfriends, everyone looks at you and I'm just used to it now, honestly. Um, and used to their, their faces of distaste when they try it and they can drink their fruity cocktails and their white Zin with ice cubes in it, um, I’ll just go ahead and drink my, my beers and be happy with that. Um it's but yeah, I've, I feel like it is a stigma for beer-drinking women, but I'm into it. Those are the kinds of ladies I want to know. 00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:04.000 You're breaking the barriers. The stereotypes have got to come down at some point. 00:40:04.000 --> 00:41:01.000 Definitely. Yeah, yeah. And I, I think too, um, with that it's, I mean, I've at this point in my life, maybe because of the teaching, I have no desire to have kids, um, because I spent so long with other people's kids, but I also feel like that's something that would be, um, an obstacle to overcome being a female in the beer industry is it's kind of frowned upon. I feel like, uh, as a girlfriend of mine was, uh, pregnant when she was bartending at a spot here in San Diego and, as she, her belly was getting larger, people were kind of looking at her like, “Oh, you're the pregnant bartender,” like. “That's classy.” And so there's a whole stigma with that too, of how people view you and is, is that appropriate and all this crap. And I just don't want to deal with that, honestly. Um, but I, I feel like one, I couldn't give up beer for that long do this is I don't want to take a break, um, on a career that's like finally getting going that to pause and have a family. That's, that's not quite my interest. 00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:41.000 Well, you sound confident. That's what matters. Yeah, no, um, no, I, I can see the, the, the impression people might have of a pregnant woman working around alcohol. That, that right there, because we've spent so many years talking about fetal alcohol syndrome and everything else. And then, you know, unfortunately there is still the, the low-class cache about for a lot of people, even though when they come into someplace like this and, you know, it's like, “Get over it.” 00:41:41.000 --> 00:42:08.000 Definitely. Um, or I mean, stigmas of even bringing kids to a brewery. Uh, I think even though I, I don't necessarily want children as part of my family at this particular moment in my life. Um, I think it's, you can't shun out the rest of the community that, you know, they're, they like beer just as much as they did before they had kids and you need to offer an environment for the families to come and, um, make alcohol kind of less of a, uh, I mean— 00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.000 Almost elicit. 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:41.000 Um, I, I look at European countries, and it's, it's so accepted. Um, and it's, if you make it a big thing, it's gonna to be a big thing. And I feel like if children are responsibly, you know, can see their parents responsibly enjoying, um, a beverage at dinner or something in the store. Um, they're going to have a, a less kind of inclination to go crazy when they get older. Um, because it's, it's just treated as something normal. And, um, I feel like a lot of the breweries that shun out the kids. Um— 00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:48.000 Well, are there any, uh, regulations against children being in a tasting room or a brewery? 00:42:48.000 --> 00:43:55.000 I know if you obviously have a full, um, liquor license, then you can't, um, there's a bar nearby that had an encounter with a family that didn't understand that, that you can't have babies around hard alcohol, um, at that particular place, um, some places will say, you know, after eight, you can't have any minors. Um, which I think is responsible. Cause adults still need their place to go and get away from kids. Um, there's one right now, but, um, yeah, I, I think there's a time and a place to bring the kids to brew, but I feel like it also needs to be a welcoming environment at the same time and not make the parents feel like they did something wrong because they came in to fill a growler and happened to have a baby on their arm. ‘Cause they're taking it to go. And it just, I don't know, but I feel like that's more of an individual brewery basis on their decision. Um here at Mission we're dog and kid friendly, um, over and beyond, we've got coloring pages for kids and games and um, we host lots of dog events here. It's they're all part of your family. So. 00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:57.000 You need cat events. 00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:01.000 Bring them in. That’d be cool. 00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:40.000 Oh yeah, she'd be real happy about that. She's a cranky old lady, but uh, oh, this has been great, Amy, you have, well, I mean, just your own personal story and then the things you've had to say about how you see your role as a woman, your place as a woman in the brewing industry. That's exactly the sort of thing I want to record. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; &#13 ;  &#13 ; &#13 ; 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SpackmanAmy_DownieJudith_2017-02-13.xml SpackmanAmy_DownieJudith_2017-02-13.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spackman, Amy. Interview February 23, 2017. Description An account of the resource Amy Spackman began working in the tasting room at Mission Brewing in San Diego after switching careers from being a preschool teacher. In this interview she discusses her experience breaking into the San Diego craft brewing industry, her continuing education, and what it is like to be one of few women in the industry. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-066 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Amy Spackman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Subject The topic of the resource Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) El Cajon (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Amy Spackman License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Brewchive(r) Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/94d2d0d7cb9c43df70faee7a952cb115.pdf 6eb9d98c96c0eaf4368f2bf5c86aa082 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. 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Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Spackman, Amy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Downie, Judith Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) El Cajon (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href=" https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SpackmanAmy_DownieJudith_2017-02-23_ADAtranscript Subject The topic of the resource Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Description An account of the resource Amy Spackman began working in the tasting room at Mission Brewing in San Diego after switching careers from being a preschool teacher. In this interview she discusses her experience breaking into the San Diego craft brewing industry, her continuing education, and what it is like to be one of few women in the industry. License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Brewchive(r) Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/07a30db156660d21bcc54bcf2578a48f.png e13aceb4ac3aad4e6fd69fef3dbf5efe Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource SpackmanA_250px Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ayana Ford Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ariel Stevenson OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=StevensonAriel_FordAyana_04-15-21.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Stevenson, Ariel. Interview April 15th, 2021 SC027-02 00:57:14 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral histories collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm Activism, Student ; Anti-Black racism ; California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated ; California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center ; California State University San Marcos. Office of Inclusive Excellence ; Student success, Black ; San Marcos (Calif.) Ariel Stevenson Ayana Ford mp4 StevensonAriel_FordAyana_04-15-21.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4bba51350f71895f7c2665d9240d7951.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction Oral history interview of Ariel Stevenson, April 15th, 2021, by Ayana Ford, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 ["[\"\"]"] 31 Childhood Stevenson talks about being raised in Farrell, Pennsylvania, in a tight-knit community with a high population of Black folks. Warren, Ohio ; Farrell, Pennsylvania ; community ; small population 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 163 Black identity and conception of Blackness Stevenson discusses her early knowledge of being Black and the importance of her community center in shaping that conception. She reflects on a negative experience she had outside of her community. community center ; Black identity ; Black pride 0 ["[\"\"]"] 315 Impact of Black advocacy and social justice movements Stevenson reflects on her family as a key influence in her cultivation into Blackness and Black history as well as her civic engagement in her younger years. active ; activated ; family influence ; Sandusky, Ohio ; Kent State ; mayor ; politics ; civic engagement ; natural hair ; community cultivation ; Civil Rights Movement, Black Lives Matter ; Buffalo Soldiers ; Karamu House ; Underground Railroad 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 594 College experience Stevenson talks about getting her undergraduate degree at Albright College in Reading, Pennsylvania. Upon moving to North San Diego County to pursue her master’s degree at California State University, San Marcos, she found racism that was reminiscent of her time spent in Ohio. master’s ; California State University, San Marcos ; Reading, Pennsylvania ; Albright College ; racism ; North County 0 [""] 681 Early campus spaces, outreach to Black students by Black staff and faculty Stevenson discusses the lack of campus spaces when she first arrived and the role of Black faculty and staff on campus in outreach to and retention of Black students. Her first position on campus was at the front counter, where she interacted with many prospective Black students and their families. Students lead the campaign for a Black Student Center, but faculty and staff encouraged them. space ; belonging ; University Student Union ; Clarke Field House ; Markstein ; Social and Behavioral Sciences Building ; entry-level position ; front counter ; orientation ; African American Faculty Staff Association ; Black Faculty Staff Association (BFSA) ; retention ; families ; cold calls ; welcome program 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1102 Needs of students, staff, and faculty involved in the Black Student Center's creation Stevenson speaks about how because the Black student population was small, it was important that Black students had a place to gather and be in community with one another. In this place, students could discuss shared experience amongst peers. Black population ; presence ; representation ; student experience ; peers ; gather 0 [""] 1272 Opening of the Black Student Center Stevenson reflects on the opening of the Black Student Center and the important ways that different student groups, such as students affiliated with the Latinx Center advocated for the Black Student Center. Jamaéla Johnson ; Tiffany Boyd ; Darniesha Thornton ; and Dani Thornton, Akilah Green ; strong women ; Latinx Center ; Black Lives ; Asian Americans ; Dr. Luke Wood ; advocates ; President Karen Haynes 0 [""] 1537 Opposition to the creation of the Black Student Center Stevenson speaks about opposition to the opening of the Black Student Center, including calls for a white-only space and resistance to the Black Lives Matter movement. She also talks about the people and strategies combating the social tension. Daryl Smith ; white space ; Ku Klux Klan ; Conversations that Matter ; Dr. Sharon Elise ; Dr. Melina Abdullah ; Black Lives Matter ; social tension ; Gloria Ladson-Billings ; resistance 0 [""] 1831 University Administration's vision for the Black Student Center Stevenson talks about how University administration attempted to work with students in designing the space and budget. She specifically reminisces about the first three women of color to serve as the Associated Students, Incorporated leadership. These women had to be persistent in the face of opposition. Dr. Lorena Checka ; assignment ; budget ; research ; Tiffaney Boyd ; Jamaéla Johnson ; Associated Students, Incorporated ; leadership ; women of color ; persistence ; opposition 0 [""] 2068 First visit to the Black Student Center Stevenson reflects fondly on the opening of the Black Student Center. However, the opening of the Center was not a panacea, and challenges continued to exist. celebration ; dashiki ; Black student retention ; challenges ; Black Lives Matter ; Latinx students ; Floyd Lai ; Cross-Cultural Center 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2322 Early focus of the Black Student Center Stevenson discusses her excitement to be involved with the Center. She states that the expectation of some that the space would be the end all be all for Black students and issues was problematic. excitement ; Student Affairs ; Academic Affairs ; vision ; Black scholars ; Black scholarship ; end all be all 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2424 Initiatives and programming in the Center's early days Stevenson lists some of the early initiatives of the Black Student Center including collaborations with the intent of highlighting Black faculty and staff on campus. Black step shows ; Black Wall Street ; Black Panthers ; Hidden Figures ; Black Excellence Month ; Unity Hour ; Black Faculty and Staff Association ; programming ; interests 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2577 Hurdles in the early days of the Black Student Center Stevenson discusses the nascent mission and goals of the Center when it opened and how this could lead to conflict. Once again, the idea that the space could be everything to everybody was not coming to fruition. mission and goals ; inclusive environment ; pandemic ; identity ; conflict 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2727 Purpose of the Black Student Center Stevenson talks about how the Black Student Center should be a hub for Black student success and those in roles that are working to make this purpose a reality. Black scholarship ; Black student success ; gather ; be in community ; facilitator ; hub ; John Rawlins III ; pandemic ; Dr. Gail Cole-Avent ; identity crisis 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2991 Impact of Black Student Center on Stevenson Stevenson speaks about her love for the Black Student Center as a welcoming space and collaborative colleagues. space ; welcoming ; events ; collaboration ; conversation 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 3060 Future expectations for the Black Student Center Stevenson shares what she would like to see for the Black Student Center in the future, including a continued focus on Black student success and scholarship. Black student success initiative ; John Rawlins III ; collaboration ; scholarship 0 ["[\"\"]"] 3130 Stevenson's role on campus as Assistant Director for Programs and Initiatives Stevenson discusses her role on campus as including the broad umbrella of inclusion, diversity, equity, and justice. She works with faculty to revise curriculum, creates and implements trainings, and builds relationships so that this work will be done across campus, not just in the Office of Inclusive Excellence. Assistant Director for Programs and Initiatives ; Office of Inclusive Excellence ; Chief Diversity Officer ; inclusion, diversity, equity, and justice ; anti-racist ; implicit bias ; curriculum ; Faculty Center ; Ethnic Studies ; facilitate ; build relationships ; Dr. Ranjeeta Basu ; capacity ; President Ellen Neufeldt 0 [""] 3376 Stevenson's thoughts on the Black Student Center Oral History Project In conclusion, Stevenson expresses her excitement about the Black Student Center Oral History Project and her appreciation to the University Library for their partnership. institutional memory ; University Library ; students ; partnership ; research ecosystem 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] oral history Ariel Stevenson works in the Office of Inclusive Excellence at California State University San Marcos where she works closely with students to increase the diversity on campus. Stevenson has been on campus for 15 years. In this interview Stevenson discusses her impact on campus, including the way she helped get the Black Student Center open through student impact and support. She also discusses her experience as a Black student and CSUSM employee. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:28.000 Okay. Today is Thursday, April 15th, 2021 at 11:35 AM. I am Ayana Ford. I'm a student at San Marcos. And today I'm interviewing Ariel Stevenson for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration between the CSUSM Black Student Center and CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Thank you for talking with me today. 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:31.000 Absolutely. Happy to be here. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:37.000 I'd like to start by talking about your childhood, when and where you were born. 00:00:37.000 --> 00:04:46.000 Okay. Childhood. Born in Warren, Ohio, raised in Farrell, Pennsylvania, super small population. The size of my community is not even three miles in Farrell, Pennsylvania, all the way around. For the size, population, I would say probably under two or three thousand. I'll have to look it up. Super, super duper small community. Most of the people in that community come from working-class communities, middle-income communities. At the time, factories and steel mills and those kinds of companies existed when I was younger, but those jobs started to fade away as I probably--by the time I entered maybe seventh and eighth grade. So, just a lot of working-class folks in those communities, right? Like when I think back on my childhood, ‘cause you surprised me with that question, I think about like being from one of the, they call them weed-and-seed communities, right? So, from the Department of Justice, kind of like the war on criminal activity and drugs. Right. Which is interesting because the community is so small. So, thinking about maybe even being policed in a community that was policed--looking now back then--but it didn't feel like that growing up. I remember just like football games and neighbors and fun and super love. And when you say community really being in like a community, right? Like parents knowing other parents really closely, looking out for one another, really tight knit, and most importantly for me, our Black community and with Black identity. I knew I was Black at a young age. That was super important for good reasons and when I would travel outside of my community, for other reasons. Like I remember being at my auntie's house, and we were playing kickball on the street, and this car with a Confederate flag, right, yells “get out the street, n-word.“ And then it becomes this whole thing in the neighborhood. I remember that, and I was a little girl, and so, you know, having that, even in the eighties, late eighties. Right. But in the nineties really just formulating who I was in my Black identity, because I went to a community center, it literally it was the center of our lives. My mom worked many jobs and so after school, we were at the center until it closed, and we did our homework there, and we wrote essays there, and we learned how to play chess there. And we learned how to garden there--guerilla gardening, which we used to like go to empty lots and plant seeds and grow food like for the community, right. Like the state or the government owned it, and we were like, We're going to take it back. Doing that at a young age because we had a lot of--when I was growing up-- there was a lot of Black pride. So, we had a lot of folks who were Africanists and being Black and proud and African identity, knowing that you were more than a slave was like super important in our history. That's what we were taught a lot at the community center. So, very fond memories of my childhood in my formative years, but definitely one that shaped who and what I am today. And that I'm proud of, yeah, super proud of. 00:04:46.000 --> 00:05:09.000 That's wonderful. That was actually my next question on how that shaped you. So, specifically on when it comes to the Black social justice movement, such as the Black Lives Matter movement, the Civil Rights Movement, the feminism movement, and the natural hair movement. How do you think those affected CSUSM and you personally? 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:12.000 That's a big question. [laughter] 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:16.000 We’ll start with you, like, how did that affect you primarily? 00:05:16.000 --> 00:09:04.000 So, because I came from a place where I was already cultivated in Blackness, and I say this, like, I remember being young and my uncle, my family was always active and activated. And so, things that they did not like in the community. So, the community where my mom came from where I was born, right. We were still pretty active ‘cause that's where my aunties, my grandmother, and my family lived. And then even though I was raised at another school in another community, you know, my mother, we were always back and forth. And so, I just remember, you know, stuff on the news where--I remember these things, Ayana you are recalling some things--like with the police pulling over this guy with a broken taillight. He ends up, you know, getting beat. I remember Sandusky, Ohio. And then I remember working there in the summers for college and Black folks having a very, having to protest in that area because of what was happening to Black college students. I remember my uncle running for mayor. He was going to be the first Black mayor at that time. And he went to Kent state, which is significant because I think during that time, that's when the shooting happened of a Kent state student, historically, if I'm not mistaken. My uncle, he's no longer with us anymore. But I say that to say like, so politically, my family has always been involved. I even remember from my civics class, being like the seventh grade and volunteering to count votes and doing the--this is how old I feel now--doing the chalk and writing the names on the board in the community center. And as it was coming in, really playing a role of like helping to count up the votes, where are we? Right. ‘Cause it's a small community. So, really every vote counting. I remember those things. I remember being like, when I was on, when I used to cheer, natural hair back then it wasn't as prevalent as it is now. But there was a--she's a woman now--there was a girl, she was a year older than me. And she was on the team, and she started just wearing her hair natural. And she was like, Why would I straighten my hair every day? And I was like, Why are we straightening our hair every day? Especially if the perm doesn't even take, like and it's a whole process. And I remember being seventeen or eighteen and wearing natural hair. And it was not the thing, Ayana. It was very much like, Why did you cut off all your hair? You know, people not thinking I'm not as pretty anymore. ‘Cause I had, you know, nice thick hair. So, all of those things, I had already gone through those things and those processes at a young age. So, by the time I came to Cal State San Marcos and even when I went to college, like I should say and also note I grew up--because I grew up in a Black community--I also went to a high school that was majority Black, my vice principal was Black, my science teachers were Black. And so, that's what I mean when I say I was cultivated. And when I went to undergrad, I had a very shocking, like Where are all the Black people? kind of moments. And so, what was good is that I was cultivated by my community, and so even though I was shocked in undergrad, I was, I felt prepared for the things that came with that and the experiences. So, by the time I came to Cal State as a master's student and as a working professional, that was seen in terms of like natural hair or what were the, some of the other things you named, Ayana? 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:08.000 The Civil Rights Movement, Black Lives Matter movement-- 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:53.000 Right. The Civil Rights Movement, like growing up knowing those things. Just because when I went to the community center, we learned about the Buffalo Soldiers and then we would go to the Karamu House in Cleveland, and they would do the play. And then at the bottom, they would do the tour of one of the places along the Underground Railroad because it was built on top of it or near it, where we would do a tour. So, the Civil Rights Movement and those teachings were a part of how I was cultivated as a young Black girl and transitioned into my later years. And so, Cal State San Marcos, I was just ready for it all, you know, is how I'll say it. 00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:58.000 So, did you go straight from high school to Cal State San Marcos? Or did you go-- 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:39.000 No, I went to, I did my master’s at Cal State San Marcos. I did my undergrad, so I went from high school to college, and I went to college outside of Philadelphia, in Pennsylvania, at this place called Reading, Albright College. And then from there, I worked for a year and then I moved to California because when you're from the East coast, you know, people talk about California in this way, like the sun and the trees, and so you're excited. And my mom, when she was younger, had moved to California--my mom and dad for a little bit--and so I had always had this fantasy about California. 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:40.000 Um-hmm. 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:58.000 So, I showed up, and I was like, This felt like Ohio, politically and socially, at least in North County, where I'm located and where I stay. So yeah, they got the palm trees and the sun, but racism is very similar. 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:18.000 That, yeah, I’ve been to the South, and I know that there's a kind of in that area. It’s very hard. So, have you seen, so during your time there, have you seen it like directly affect CSUSM and like the opening of the Black Student Center and stuff like that? 00:11:18.000 --> 00:14:24.000 Yeah, I mean the student would come, and they talked about it for a while. Like not having a space and not having a place and not feeling like they belong anywhere. And at that time, there was no USU (University Student Union), so let's just be clear. The Clarke Field House was the main multipurpose space for everything that we had had on campus. At least my time. I came to campus at year, 2006 to 2007? So, I've been with the campus it'll--on the seventeenth--ooh, it'll be fifteen years that I've been with the campus. Yes, my whole youth. So, the campus at that time, it was growing, like Markstein was like the newest building and there was no SBSB (Social and Behavioral Sciences Building), there was no USU--I already said that. Yeah, a lot of the building, there was no bench that's out there--that bench from the last president. It just looked different, and students would come to our--first, you know, I haven't always worked in the inclusive excellence office. So, my entry-level position was at the front counter, and I loved it because I feel, like I really feel like it's the gateway to students and families, and I would come, and I would see so many families and so many students. And I would interact with them prior to orientation because you know, we're helping them navigate, like what's missing on their application or if they have questions or the parents have questions. And so, that's how I first started to get to know a lot of the students that came through. But a lot of the students that were Black remembered my face and the other woman who was working, who was Black at the time. So, they would just come back because they remembered seeing me at orientation and whenever they would have a question, they would feel comfortable. And I would say, you know, You're here, we welcome you here. And whatever I could do for your experience to enhance it, to make it better, to help you navigate, I'm happy to do that, right. Because even, you know, you work your job, well--as sometimes on this campus as Black folks--you work your job, but you also work other jobs in this labor. And so, when there wasn't a space for Black students, the Black faculty and staff, we were the space. At the time was called African American Faculty Staff Association. And a lot of the programming is now called Black Faculty and Staff Association (BFSA) to be more inclusive for Black-identifying folks from all over the Americas. Right. All over the world. When they come to Cal State San Marcos so that they see themselves and their identity. Were you going to ask me another question? 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:35.000 Oh, I was actually going to ask you about, so early on, did you hear like a lot of the push for the Black Student Center? Like a center for students who identified as Black or African American? 00:14:35.000 --> 00:17:08.000 I felt like it was a push for, by students, yes, and led by students. But faculty and staff wanted them to have a space as well. Because going back to what I was saying is that, like, we just felt like the retention of our students, they were, they didn't, they didn't have anything. They didn't have anybody but us, as faculty and staff members, right. That's why I talked about, like, just being at that front counter and welcoming students, like that seems like a small thing. But seeing, like students have told me and their families, like, you know, I told my, I told my daughter, I told my son to like, you know, that lady, Ms. Stevenson, you find her ‘cause she's going to be helpful. She said she would help you. And they would come back. And so like, we became Black bodies at Cal State San Marcos became the institution for Black students. So, to answer your question, yes, students definitely led it, but faculty and staff definitely encouraged them to say, Yeah, you do belong. You should have a space. There's nothing wrong with asking for a space, yeah. ‘Cause we would even do cold calls, like Black Faculty and Staff Association would get on the phone—that’s how you know it's back in the day. And if students did not do their intent to enroll, we would call, we would have like a couple of days and we would split it up, and we would get in the office because, you know, we needed an outreach office or we used the outreach office. They would let us use it. And they would let us use their phones, and we will sign it for a few hours. And we would say, May first is coming. Right. Like right now. And if we didn't see it, We want you to choose Cal State San Marcos. We are Black Faculty Staff--or African American Faculty Staff Association--and we want you here. We'll, you know, take care of you. We'll love on you. We did, Ayana, we used to. And I smile because it's some of my best memories because you know, cold calling students, you know, we use everything now digitally, but calling them, a phone call meant something. Even, you know, twelve years ago, fifteen years ago, it meant something. It meant we want you ; we care about you. And you could come to us, and it meant to parents that they were in good hands, that even if whatever was happening or whatever their thoughts was about the institution that as Black Faculty and Staff Association, we were trying to dismantle those thoughts and say, No, you know, we'll still, we'll look out for them. 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:14.000 That's, that's wonderful. ‘Cause that would probably get a lot of students to feel welcome to come to San Marcos. 00:17:14.000 --> 00:18:09.000 We used to have a welcome program. I still think we have, it's just a little different. So, we would, you know, we would call them and then we'd have the welcome program. And the admissions director would be there and all the key resources and support for mental health for all of the Black faculty and staff, it was like a big deal. ‘Cause then they would come in on move in day and then we would invite their parents because we wanted their parents to say, like, You can't say you're going to be accountable to somebody's child. People want to look you in the eye because then they say, You told me he was going to be accountable for my child. You know? So, and it helped make some of the conversations easier to say, like, they will want to know What's they grades? And we'd be like, FERPA is a thing, we can't just bust out and tell you the grades, you know. The students have rights. I know they're eighteen, and they're your babies, but you know, so yeah. 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:25.000 Oh, my goodness. That takes me back to when I first got on campus. So, what do you think that the student and staff and faculty involved in the creation of the Black Student Center felt like they needed from the Black Student Center? 00:18:25.000 --> 00:21:00.000 I think they needed a place to see one another. That because the Black population is small, I think we're under, still under four percent, that they didn't see each other--and I can tell you this--they didn't see each other until it was time for the graduation and recognition ceremony. So, so many times prior to having a space where they gather, they do this part, where they call open mic. So many of them would look back to their student peers and say, I did not know that there were so many of us here. If I knew that, I would have, maybe my experience could have been different. So, I think just having a space where they know that they knew that they were there and present, because presence and representation means something. To be in a place, where you can have honest conversation about your experiences because I don't know where else and who else could identify with their experiences except for them, and faculty and staff--they're still professionals, right--faculty and staff are older. So, even though they're having a very similar, or they were having very similar experiences, students needed peers to kind of like, just talk to and talk through, right. And even if they were having classes or being able to share and say, You know, I took this professor, this professor is good. You'll definitely pass and do well. They needed that system. I'm going to say they needed their own railroad because they were trying to figure it out in this way, being sparse and in between and trying to find each other. And the Center became this place where they gathered. I will say the Black Student Union at that time was like, was a big facilitator, as well. I don't want to leave them out. That was, I almost felt like the numbers for their participation was large prior to the Center, just because it was the only space for students to be together and to gather. But if you were a student that was at like Extended Learning (Building) and you weren’t on main campus and you couldn't make the meetings, right, because of the schedule, then it was harder. But now I think the Center being open and being a present and stable place, and a sustained place, now they just know where to go. Am I answering your question? 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:02.000 Yes! 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:04.000 Okay. I'm like, I'm just on memory lane. 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:11.000 We want--I want that. We want that. [laughter] So, were you able to attend the Black Student Center’s grand opening? 00:21:11.000 --> 00:25:31.000 Yes. I wasn't going to miss that! I attended, I was there with the young women I remember, like Jamaéla (Johnson), Tiffany (Boyd), the twins Darniesha and Dani (Thornton), Akilah (Green), such beautiful women. And those women, they really led, those young women really led the conversation for the space to be created. And I also want to note this piece because I don't know if people know this piece that when the Latin center, Latin (Latinx) Center was being built, a lot of Black students supported that space for the Latin(x) Center to be built because they felt like they understood, and then when Black students needed the space, a lot of the Latinx students also supported. I was at the meeting, the open forum where some of the students came in and they had the sign, and they stood, and other students, I remember some of the Latinx leaders at that time, they stood right along with them because they remember when those students stood up with them when they needed a space. So, I would even say that those two spaces really came about because of students' voices, because students wanted a space and because those different populations were advocating for one another, which is super important, you know, when we think about what's happening in terms of you mentioned Black Lives. It's important to see when you see all over the internet and all over the world that you see different organizations, you see Asian Americans standing for Black Lives. You see all the different diverse groups standing for Black Lives. That means something, especially with the experiences of Black Lives and what that means. It's a very unique experience. And other experiences have their experiences and unique--I wouldn't take away from them--but to even focus on Black, what it means for a Black life right, in academia. I think – what I know is yes, Black lives matter. So Black scholarship matters, Black mind--as Dr. Luke Wood would say in his whole movement--it matters, you know. Black grades matter. Black, you know, leaders matter, right? And then higher education is where they're being shaped. So, to go back to those young students, the women and the newer young men that came on working together to make sure that it was a space, it was a very, it was a very beautiful thing, watching as a professional staff member on the outside, because you see your students, you see them evolve, you see them trying to navigate and understand and understand what the policies are and create a space, and those particular students, they weren't trying to like be disruptive or, if, you know, they were definitely advocating to just be students who were heard and welcomed and having better experiences, and they weren't doing it in a way that was like--even when it got to the protest or protesting at the forum--it wasn't like they were making a bunch of like super, like loud noise. They kind of stood up with a sign. They asked the President of that time (President Karen Haynes), ‘cause it wasn't our current President, for the space. You know, and I always see, when I see those young men and women even now, and they always were just, they were organized and advocates and activated. But when I even think about what they're doing now, they're all in like grad school or in wonderful, wonderful jobs or even coming back to our campus talking about free speech. And so, to me, that's why it's even that much more important for our campus community to keep cultivating those students because they come back and they enrich the campus community. 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:48.000 Exactly. So, to go back, did you see any external or internal pushback on the creation of the Black Student Center? Or did you directly witness any pushback on the creation on social media or anything like that? 00:25:48.000 --> 00:30:06.000 I did not see it for myself. Right. But I just remember the conversations, folks were saying things like--ooh, actually, I'll take it back. I do remember, I forgot all about this. We brought in Daryl Smith to campus to speak about diversity issues. And I remember a small group of white students standing up during her talk. And Daryl identifies as white and does diversity work and is known in the diversity field and really pushed back on the students. So, they were asking for a white space, and they were saying that if we're basically going to make a space for everybody, like we want a space as well. And I remember her saying something like, you have, thinking like that if you want a space for only whiteness in that way that you're saying, because they were saying it in a very harmful way, is how she was and how she took it. And she said, Yes, you have a space for your ideas. Go and join the Ku Klux Klan, where you belong. Right. Like that was like, that was controversial. But just trying to point out the supremacy in that thinking and culture, the way that it was approaching and not really understanding the conversations. And so, there was a lot of conversations about what it meant to have a space. One of the things that I do in our office, we have Conversations That Matter. And so, one of the things that's involved or that's a part of the Conversations That Matter series is you have to have a call to action. And I remember we had one that talked about Black studies matter, because we needed to educate folks on, well the students and the faculty wanted to come, and they want it to educate folks on what it meant to have Black studies in Black spaces. So, it was a campus conversation on that to try to negate, I guess, pushback or to answer questions. Right, and that was great. ‘Cause it had founding faculty from San Diego (State), founding faculty from the African, Africana Studies program, I think from SDSU, it had, I would have to go back. Dr. Sharon Elise had led that conversation. Dr. Melina (Abdullah) from Long Beach, who heads the Black Lives Matter LA version, I think, was on that conversation. I'm getting people's titles all wrong. But the point is, Black faculty from the CSU came to support CSU San Marcos on that conversation because it was a larger conversation, I think, having--happening in the system around spaces for Black students. And, you know, at that time Black Lives Matter, this is Black Lives Matter. People were not acceptable of Black Lives Matter. Like now you see people like donating bunches of, a bunch of money or protesting together and saying, “Black Lives Matter,” no matter how diverse they are to my point earlier, but that wasn't the conversation nationally. It was very much like when you say Black Lives Matter, what about blue lives? What about white lives? So, that is the tension, the social tension that was happening, even in the midst of like, they were coming off of that, even in the midst of this space of higher education, you know. And centers in itself, cultural centers, have been a longer conversation historically, I think, Gloria, Gloria Ladson-Billings, around her publishings on cultural centers. So yeah, it, there was. So yeah, to answer your question, I guess, to go back, there was some pushback for sure. Yes. And resistance coming from--yeah, there was. Sorry I had to reflect a little bit more. 00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:19.000 Oh no, please, please reflect ‘cause that's, that's really interesting, actually. So, what did the university admissions communicate was their vision when it comes to the Black Student Center, as well? 00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:21.000 Wait, say that again? 00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:31.000 What was the vision for the university administration communicating with their vision? 00:30:31.000 --> 00:34:19.000 If I remember correctly, I just remember the students had requested the space, and I think they were Dr. (Lorena) Checka and the President because she (Dr. Checka) oversees Student Affairs, was responsible for working with the students to kind of like look for a space, think about the budget, think about those things. So, I felt like the students were charged with making it happen, with the support of, maybe Dr. Checka trying to like help them make it happen, if that makes sense. But to be honest, I feel like, yeah, it was kinda’ like we asked for the space, the students, this is what the students had told me: We asked for the space and now they're making us do all of the work that administration would normally do to create the space. I think that could have probably been a little bit clearer for students because it made them feel like they're like, Well here, if you want the space, you figure it out, right. Where I think the, they were trying to do--and this is where I don't know for sure--but I think they were trying to be in partnership with the students so that the students also understood this is what it takes to create a space, this is what a budget of a space looks like, making them do the research which is okay. I feel like students need that scholarly, like this is how you research. So, if you get in a nonprofit or you request money or request a space, you need to know this information. But I think originally like just how it came across was interesting. And then even, you know, at the time, I felt like it wasn't, there because there wasn't specific ownership of the space--and maybe you’ll interview Tiffaney Boyd and she’ll have a, as a student, a better, she’ll have more to say about this. But, I remember, so, when Tiffaney was President (of Associated Students, Incorporated, ASI) and Jamaéla (Johnson) was one of the execs, and there was another young woman. I’m forgetting her name. They were, I think, the first women of color to be ASI leadership and executives, at that time, during their leadership time. And they themselves, as women of color, specifically Black women on this campus, was having some challenges just being the leaders of the student body. And, you know, some of the things that were just coming towards them was very, very interesting, like I was surprised, you know. I’m very proud of them because some folks did not make it easy for them. And they had some moments, you know. So, they had to be tough and strong, and they’re students, you know, they’re students trying to be students. But also trying to do this very important political and social thing for students futuristically, you know. And I don’t think that part of the story gets told. That those women of color, when they were leaders, they had some opposition for sure. And I think about that because, you know, whatever we could do to assist, where we could assist, you know. But, you know, I look at them, and they were strong. Whether they wanted to be or not, they had to be. And they had to figure it out. What was your question? I feel like I digressed. 00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:28.000 Oh no, you, you answered it perfectly. (laughter) So, what was it like when you first visited the Center for the first time? 00:34:28.000 --> 00:38:28.000 So, when they had a celebration, in the spirit of it all was like a super proud day. There was a ribbon cutting, there was like smiles everywhere. People had on, I felt like everybody had on the dashiki or dashiki dress or like something to be connected to their African-ness and faculty and staff--not everybody--but faculty and staff, they showed up, supporters of the space showed up. And so, being in that space in the very beginning and what it meant because the people who've been here for a while historically understood what it meant to gain such a place for Black students, when Black student retention and equity gaps and all of those things have been a conversation for so long. And to have this, yes it was one center, but to have it, really felt like okay, now we're going to be able to expand the Black population and do all of these things. So, the spirit of that day, the spirit of that first, you know, year on the outside was interesting. I think that the people who worked in the inside, the students and the staff probably had some interesting experiences ‘cause I think that people felt challenged. One thing about when people focus on things that are Black, it sometimes feels like everybody has input on why it can't be focused on just Blackness, which is interesting. Anytime that Blackness is centered, and we see that right, with Black Lives Matter, right? We can't even say Black lives matter without something, without somebody saying, What about blue lives? What about white lives? And people constantly saying, We never said that those things were not important! We’re saying that you never deemed Black life important since day zero. And we are making--like the young folks are making sure that we matter and that we count and to see that is important. And so, when the space to say like, Yes, all students matter! But we are making sure that we say we recognize and understand the experience, the negative experiences that Black students have been having, and we're trying to improve those, is important, right? That’s why I mentioned, wanted to mention the piece around the Latinx students who support it because I think they understood because they also had some similar things happening in a different kind of way, but just understood when people say we are focusing on this population, and there is nothing wrong to focus on this population. So, I think that the folks who worked there when people would come in and they didn't understand what the space is for, and were like Why? Or if they saw social media saying, here we go again with, you know, whatever people were saying. I think it was a challenge to, for them. And I think it was difficult for them. And you know, they did what they do and as Black folks, they held their head high and shoulders back. But that doesn't mean that those Black students who are just looking for a space, didn't feel again, like, Why is this happening? Why are people making us feel like we don't belong? Why are when I talk about Black people, you're saying et cetera and making me talk about something else, you know? But I think that's important. And also just like and other people that support it. I feel like even the director, Floyd Lai, from the Cross-Cultural Center always has been supportive of the other spaces. Just that understanding and those things are important as well. 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:43.000 Yeah. Those are very important to know. So, continue, can you tell me a little bit about the early focuses of the Black Student Center, the programming events and focuses? 00:38:43.000 --> 00:40:08.000 Yeah, I mean, I remember--I should say this too, Ayana--I remember I was excited for the Black Student Center. I had applied to be the director of the Black Student Center at one time. I was excited, like this is the place, you know? And so, the vision around it being a place really, even though being in Student Affairs, being connected to Academic Affairs, really developing Black scholars and scholarship, having that historical understanding for folks and that education. Before it was formed, I know that like it was, people have the vision, honestly, that it was going to be the end all be all of everything, which is problematic because one space can't answer all things for Black students. And having people realize that, you know, the diaspora is not a monolith, right. And the students are not monolithic in their thinking and their approaches. So, I think even now, you know, that's a challenge, understanding how the richness and diversity among Black people and Black students. So having it be this end all be all is interesting, was interesting. So that's ‘kinda what I remember about it. My little piece. Yeah. 00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:23.000 Mmm. So, expand upon that a little bit more about that. So, on that early, you didn't, any initiatives or programming specifically that you like knowingly like saw push, like right after the Black Student Center? 00:40:23.000 --> 00:42:40.000 I don't know if it was right after, but I know that they started to have Black step shows. They started to have Black Wall Street. They had the Black Panthers. They had one of my favorite events, they had something called Hidden Figures, and they were recognizing, they had it on so-called Valentine’s Day in February, which was also during a Black Excellence Month and they would recognize Black faculty and staff members on campus and their, the work that they did in a hidden way, and I was one of them. But one of the Black women, she doesn't work here anymore-- many of the Black women that were here don't work here anymore. It was just one of those events, it was one of my favorites because it was like, a we see you from the students, right. It was the student stance of Black faculty and staff, like we see you, we know what you do. They may not know, or other people may not know, but we know what you do for us, and we appreciate you for it. And it just, it was a really good event. So, there were a lot of great events when it first started, yeah, like four or five. But there they were having--oh, they would have Black Unity Hour, Unity Hour, I think they still have that. And they would try to do a lot of coordinator with the Black Faculty Staff Association. So, trying to welcome the Black Faculty Staff Association. They have this thing--I forget what it was called--but the Black Faculty and Staff Association, one person a week could come in and lead a conversation with the students on whatever topic that they were interested in. And, you know, so that was nice. I remember I did a topic in there with them, with another colleague, and we focused on white supremacy, white groups, and kind of like, what does that mean for Black lives and Black students, something like that, you know? So, they were doing a lot of programming, and they had a lot of interests. 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:48.000 So what are some wrinkles that do you think were worked out in the early days of the Center? 00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:50.000 That I can talk about? (laughter) 00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:54.000 Yeah. That you can, yeah. (laughter) 00:42:54.000 --> 00:45:20.000 Yeah. I think understanding the mission and the goal of the Center, like I think they might even be working on that, like understanding that, like we know it’s a Center and we know it’s the space for Black students. But having a unified goal from the very beginning, not sure if they had that from the very beginning. Who could be in this space? It was always like a conversation. Who could be in the space? And I was like, Well, the space is open to all, right, ‘cause we're an inclusive environment, but let us not forget the space is gonna’ focus on Black scholarship, like what it means to be Black and those different things. And so, they had to always debunk myths. I feel like in the beginning, people would, they had to debunk myths, because people were like, Well, can I be in here? And they're like, It's a space like any other space on campus. Do you ask the other spaces if you can be there? Like they had to do a lot of like that teaching folks, they probably still have to do that. And I'm saying, I don't know for sure ‘cause we're in a pandemic, but you know, but they're still having virtual events. But that was like one of the things like people were out constantly asking people who maybe who didn't understand if they could be in the space and they would always be like, Yeah, you could be in the space, but just know in the space, this is the focus. And if you support the mission and the focus of the space, then there's no problem. And I do think, I do feel like the students were challenged a lot in the space. And I also think there was some internal things happening in this space. Yeah, just trying to work out the identity. I think the identity of the space being worked out and what it meant, you know, and because it didn’t come with a very strong mission or had a strong mission, people made the mission, or the identity of the space based on who they were and what they wanted to see out of the space. So that, I think sometimes that leads to conflict. In terms of just like everybody had their idea of going back to, even, you know, faculty and staff. Everybody had wanted the space to be everything for everybody and then realizing real quick that that cannot be the case. 00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:27.000 So, what would you say is the purpose of the, of the Center specifically? 00:45:27.000 --> 00:48:05.000 Yeah, I would say the purpose of the space is Black scholarship for students is the first and foremost important part of the space. The space is in a place for higher education, and so the goal is to make sure that in whatever way the Center can help facilitate Black student success. So, Black student success and Black scholarship is what I would say is the most important facilitation of the space, right? Like how has that space facilitating Black students to graduate on time, to make sure that Black students know how to write, to make sure that, right, like we have the Writing Center and we have those other spaces, but if Black students are not going to those spaces for whatever reason, that they're also giving, getting that in some, to some degree, in the space. So, I think that’s one of the--this is my opinion--but yeah, one of the most important things that like Black, that Black student success is happening. And so, how they go about Black student success? I think the space gets to determine, right. But just like some of the things that I named, but also a place on a list to, if I had a list of what it's for, students to gather and be, and be in community. There's a long history, I think I even started with my beginning of like the importance of community to Black folks in the Americas. I would say globally, but I'm a scholar in the US mostly, I shouldn't say that. I have a Latin American studies minor. But and that was still like examining Blackness, you know? But yeah, Black student success overall. I know that's super general, but whatever it means for Black students. So, like if a Black student trying to graduate from Cal State, making sure I graduate, like, and I want to graduate, go to graduate school, what things can the space provide in conjunction with the services we have on campus? So maybe, you know, the Black Student Center is a facilitator, making sure that the students know what resources are available throughout the campus. So, a hub of facilitating that student success. 00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:11.000 So, do you think this purpose is being accomplished, the multiple lines that you mentioned, currently? 00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:15.000 Do I think the purpose is being accomplished right now? 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:16.000 Mmm-hmm. 00:48:16.000 --> 00:49:04.000 Yeah. I think that with their new student director, John Rawlins (III), I think that, well that we’re in a pandemic, but even in that, I think that John is trying to create some sustainable foundation for the space that wasn't there. So, I would say with the new director and with the new AVP Dr. (Gail) Cole-Avent (Associate Vice-President, Student Life), who also oversees all of the centers, they're definitely in tandem, working that that space is a place for student success, Black student success. Yes. I think they're on the journey. I don't know if they've arrived because the space is how old now, like three years? 00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:07.000 Three years, it'll be five coming up, about four years. 00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:42.000 Four years, and it’ll be five. Okay. So, and I think John has only been here one, maybe two, years, and Dr. Cole-Avent maybe one, maybe two years. So, you know, the space has gone through some, I want to say identity crisis, but I'm going to call it that for the lack of a better term. And they're trying to shape that and build that foundation and repair some things, repair some things. So, to your question, yes. I think that they are on the road to recovery and the road to making sure that the foundation for Black students for that space is student success. 00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:52.000 Ok. All right. So how has the Black Student Center affected you personally? 00:49:52.000 --> 00:50:54.000 I love the space. Sometimes just when I walk the campus, I'll go visit all the spaces. But I love that when I come in the space, I feel welcomed by students. I'm happy to see them and they seem happy to see me. Unless they think I'm going to have them, assign them some things. (laughter) Or ask them some questions about classes, if they've gone or not. But the presence of the space has been great to like some of the events that have, I don't know of the capacity if you, of those events could have been had on campus without the space and the collaboration of the space. But just going in there and just seeing like, what's going on, what are y'all up to? What are y'all working on? Sometimes, especially in, you know, thinking about some of the conversations that they were having or some of the programs just to walk by or to stop in for a moment just to see what's going on. So good on campus. 00:50:54.000 --> 00:51:00.000 So, with all that's going on, what do you expect to see next for the Black Student Center? 00:51:00.000 --> 00:52:00.000 I really expect that the Black student success initiative that's going to come down, I really hope that it can help grow our Black student population and have that space be a hub. And I say that, I'm trying to be gentle in saying that because John (Rawlins III, Director of the Black Student Center) is one person, right, and so doing, you know, the best that he can as one person. But what I would like to see next is those student initiatives out of the space, really concrete, and really growing and seeing scholarship, the scholarship that the students produce, the presentation opportunities, seeing, you know, the way that faculty continue to collaborate with the students and produce scholarship. That's what I think some of the next steps are. 00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:10.000 Okay, so you had mentioned previously, but can you talk a little bit about your role on, on the, on campus currently? 00:52:10.000 --> 00:56:09.000 Yeah. I'm the Assistant Director for Programs and Initiatives (in the Office of Inclusive Excellence). My role is to make sure, help make sure that the campus is inclusive and welcoming, to help make sure that the CDO (Chief Diversity Officer) and I, that we advise our presidential administration team on the best decisions for the campus to strategically be doing the work of inclusion, diversity, equity, and justice. And so, I know that's super broad, but it’s broad because, Ayana, it entails a lot. It looks different in different ways, right? It can look like a summit on what we're doing for specific populations. It can look like anti-racist work and implicit bias training. It can look like, what are we doing for students for putting together diversity work and sustainability work, and how is that helping student success? It can look like what are we doing with our social justice grants and how are people doing the work of diversity across campus? It has many forms. I do many things. It can look like, how do we decolonize a syllabus and work with the Faculty Center on a program, such as that and making sure that our faculty and staff also feel welcomed and included on campus doing this work. And that students, no matter where they go on campus, that we have some inclusive curriculum. It can look like there there's a new Ethnic Studies program coming, possibly, not program, I'm sorry bill or conversation, right. Like the work of the Office of Inclusive Excellence is very expansive across the campus because the goal was to make sure that inclusion is in everything that we do, whether in hiring, whether in our search process and our retention of our faculty, staff, and students, and our, again, in our curriculum, and the daily operations of like vendors and policies and how they're applied. So yeah, it's all of that with many forms and my job is to help facilitate it where I can, how I can, really building relationships across the campus and making sure that our Office is you know, also there to advise or to help and guide where folks need the assistance when they're, when they're trying to transform their department from, you know, a more inclusive space or department and they don't know what that looks like. So, it's a lot. I enjoy it. I enjoy working with our current, interim CDO (Dr. Ranjeeta Basu). We're in the midst of hiring a new chief--and I say CDO--that's the Chief Diversity Officer. And so, just trying to figure out where do we go from here? And I know where we go, we need to expand the capacity of our office so that we could continue to do this work all over, consistently. But what's nice is that the new President, President [Ellen] Neufeldt, has said this work belongs to the campus, and it is not just relegated to one office and that we all do this work of inclusion together. So, that's been a great relief, and you know, I applaud the new President for that. 00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:16.000 Okay. So, those are all my questions. Do you have anything you wanted to add or anything you would want to say? 00:56:16.000 --> 00:57:05.000 Yeah, I think this is a great project. I think that it's going to be important. I'm all into the institutional memory that we need to carry forward, especially with the conversations we're having now about like naming of buildings and why do we have those names or why do we have this space or what was the purpose. So, I'm very excited about the project and I love that the University Library was happy to partner with students, graduate students, with the (Black Student) Center, a lot of students, yourself and other students, who are doing the interviews, it becomes this whole research ecosystem, and I'm all happy for that. So good job. 00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:10.000 Thank you so much for allowing me to interview you. This is a wonderful interview. Thank you so much. 00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:12.000 No problem. 00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:14.000 Have a nice day. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en &#13 ; video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=StevensonAriel_FordAyana_04-15-21.xml StevensonAriel_FordAyana_04-15-21.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Stevenson, Ariel. Interview April 15th, 2021 Description An account of the resource Ariel Stevenson works in the Office of Inclusive Excellence at California State University San Marcos where she works closely with students to increase the diversity on campus. Stevenson has been on campus for 15 years. In this interview Stevenson discusses her impact on campus, including the way she helped get the Black Student Center open through student impact and support. She also discusses her experience as a Black student and CSUSM employee. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-02 Subject The topic of the resource Activism, Student Anti-Black racism California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Office of Inclusive Excellence Student success, Black Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-15 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ariel Stevenson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Farrell (Penn.) Warren (Ohio) Reading (Penn.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <span><a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a><br /></span> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Ariel Stevenson Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b428ee31bab3ba47aa9b2353b1ee70e4.pdf 88bb2f40eee9163df7c45f0134d9cf7f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Stevenson, Ariel. Interview transcript, April 15, 2021. Description An account of the resource Ariel Stevenson works in the Office of Inclusive Excellence at California State University San Marcos where she works closely with students to increase the diversity on campus. Stevenson has been on campus for 15 years. In this interview Stevenson discusses her impact on campus, including the way she helped get the Black Student Center open through student impact and support. She also discusses her experience as a Black student and CSUSM employee. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ariel Stevenson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-15 Subject The topic of the resource Activism, Student Anti-Black Racism California State University San Marcos, Black Student Center California State University San Marcos, Office of Inclusive Excellence Student success, Black Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Farrell (Penn.) Warren (Ohio) Reading (Penn.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Ariel Stevenson Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context StevensonAriel_FordAyana_2021-04-15_transcript Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Sheehan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David Taitingfong OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_access_2024-08-30.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Taitingfong, David. Interview August 30th, 2024. SC027-083 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM csusm Guam ; San Diego (Calif.) ; Chamorro language ; Decolonization ; Colonization ; Language revival David Taitingfong Robert Sheehan audio file TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_access_2024-08-30.wav 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/7dcf86c4fe6bc8b429316d83d49b9a41.mp4 Other video This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro 0 Introduction Dabit (David) Taitingfong sits down to discuss Chamorro, indigenous Guamanian, culture, heritage, and language. Chamorro ; language ; culture Guam ; Chamorro 0 23 Early Childhood and Growing up in San Diego David talks about where he was born and his early connection to the Chamorro community and culture. 0 183 Visiting Guam for the First Time David discusses how his first visit to Guam and his ancestral village, Yona, impacted his cultural and language learning process. 0 592 Colonial Occupation of Guam David talks about the history of colonialism on Guam and how that has affected the culture and the Chamorro language. 0 1481 Fluency vs. Literacy in Chamorro David talks about the two orthographies in the Chamorro language and how some Chamorro elders are only fluent in Chamorro and lack any education in Chamorro literacy. 0 2007 Chamorro Social Media David discusses how he created his Instagram page which is dedicated to teaching Chamorro language and culture. 0 2515 How the Chamorro Language Creates Connections within the Chamorro Community David talks about how his language learning process has reignited his family's and friend's interest in speaking Chamorro and learning more. 0 Oral history David Taitingfong is a member of the Chamorro community and involved with the group Prugraman Sinipok, which teaches a two week Chamorro language immersion program. David describes his involvement with Prugraman Sinipok and how his interest in sharing the Chamorro lanugage and culture has shaped his life. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:10.000 So today is Friday, August 30th, 2024. My name is Robert Sheehan and I'm here with David Taitingfong for an oral history interview with Cal State San Marcos. How are you doing today, David? 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:11.999 I'm good. How are you? 00:00:11.999 --> 00:00:23.000 I'm doing well, thank you. Thanks for being here with me today and dealing with our technical difficulties. Um, if it's all right, I'd like to start with your childhood, um, and your family. Could you tell me a little bit about where you grew up and how you grew up? 00:00:23.000 --> 00:01:24.000 Yeah, so I was born and raised in Southern San Diego. Um, my parents, we lived in Otay Mesa, which is real close to the border, about two or three exits away from the border. But because my parents had to work, we actually used my dad's mom's address as like, this is where we'll go to school. That way after school, I can go to my grandma's house. And so my childhood mostly was waking up, getting up, getting dropped off in a completely different neighborhood, like 30 minutes away. But that meant I got to be with my cousins because we all kind of went to the same, we all went to the same elementary school then like one or two middle schools, and then we branched out from high school. But, um, me and my brother, we did that growing up. Um, so that was more in Southeast San Diego. The, it was in the, the Jamacha neighborhood, which is near Skyline, which is, I mean, overall just, yeah, Southeast San Diego. And so that's where, that's where like most of my childhood was, honestly. 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:32.000 Okay. And other than your nuclear family, did you have any sort of connection with the Chamorro community, uh, outside of your family? 00:01:32.000 --> 00:02:24.000 Yes, very much so. So my grandma, my dad's mom, um, in the neighborhood she lived in right next door was her cousin, and across the street was her cousin. And then down the street was my mom's sister. And then around the corner was like my mom's aunt. And so it was just, it felt like I grew up around the community a lot. And then also the thing I remember a lot is in Southeast San Diego, in the Lincoln area, there's a club, The Sons and Daughters of Guam's Club. I think it used to be, I don't know if it used to be called the San Diego Guam Club, but either way, the initials work out the SD Guam Club. And every year they host like little fiestas for the patron saint of each village on Guam. And the saint where my mom's mom was from. 00:02:24.000 --> 00:03:01.000 That fiesta always happened around my birthday. And so that's where I, I would say I got most of the interaction with the Chamorro community at large was going to the fiesta, going to the fiesta, which was for the village of Yona, the village of Yona and Guam's. They call it the south. It's like the middle south, but it's where I would say I feel most mostly attached to. 'Cause it's the fiesta we always went to, and it's my mom's side. And like traditionally culturally, Chamorros' are matrilineal. And so for me it's like, I feel like I've always gravitated towards my mom's side at least later on. For sure. 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:04.000 And have you ever visited, is it Zonia? Yona? 00:03:04.000 --> 00:04:03.000 Yeah. Um, yeah, so I , I went to Guam two years ago, maybe for the first time in my life. I was supposed to go there for a language immersion program. I wasn't able to make it in time. I got there the day it ended and then I was like, you know what? My cousin was in it, let me just spend time with her. And then I got COVID and we all did actually. So I spent my entire trip with like five people, the same five people. But I was able to go to the village of Yona. I have a cousin who still lives there. I was like, I don't know if I should visit you because I got COVID. She's like, oh, I had it two weeks ago. You're fine. Like, come here. I have gifts for you . So I was able to visit, uh, I don't know exactly which parts within the village, my mom's side is from, but my cousin from my mom's side, she was there. So she showed me a little bit of her land and I was like, okay, this is cool. I, I'm, I actually going back next year. 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:10.000 Oh, very nice! It seems like a good way to connect back with family and cultural roots and stuff like that. Can you describe the village? 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:59.000 Uh, you know, not entirely, because again, like when I had went, it was kind of like, I don't know if I should, my cousin was like, just come on through. But where she lived most of the houses, it was like a house, and then I would say a good chunk of land around each house. Because even when she invited me, she's like, you come over and see the ranch. And I was like, what does that mean? You know? And sure enough, we go there. It's like she has a house and I mean, I'm not even good with geography, but she definitely had enough land that I could probably do like, maybe it was like two basketball courts side by side. And she's like, yeah, this is like, we grow stuff and catch pigs here sometimes 'cause they try and eat all her stuff. 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:34.000 But it's, yeah. And I want to say actually where she lives too used to be a lot of military housing. So it kind of has a feel like that where it looks modern American, but the military have since moved out of that specific area. I don't know if that's how it was, but that's how it felt like to me. Like I pulled up and I was like, okay, like a lot of these houses look like they were like, what's the -- cookie cutter? You know? Um, 'cause you go to other parts of Guam and it's not like that, like houses kind of tend to look different. 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:37.000 And there's a big military presence on, on Guam, correct? 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:52.000 Yeah. Yeah. Biggest I think would be [US] Air Force and Navy and I know they're building, or no, they've already built a Marine Corps base there, which I mean a department of the Navy. 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:58.000 How do local Guamanians and Chamorros feel about the United States military on Guam? 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:48.000 It's a, it's a mixed bag, I would say. Because after World War II, everyone was split. I know on my dad's side, they were more grateful. So there was, there's a story of a man, I believe his name was, Robert? Robert Tweed? Well, I just know his last name's Tweed. And he was one of, he was an American, service member who was hiding from the Japanese. And a lot of families helped him. My dad's mom, her family was one of the people who had helped him, like, helped him hide until more reinforcements came and stuff. And so I know on my dad's side of the family, they're very much grateful for that. I never really got much war stories from my mom's side. I don't know how they feel about that. 00:06:48.000 --> 00:07:26.000 But I would say where I'm at in my life now, most of my peers, most of the people I associate with are against it for sure. In the sense of like, at least against it in the sense of if you want to use our stuff, at least ask. 'cause that's currently not the relationship, right? It's pretty much anything at the federal level kind of just kind of just goes, GovGuam [Government of Guam] does a lot of stuff, but if the military's like, Hey, we want to do this. I think one of the requirements that they have to do is just like, conduct studies, but they conduct the study. So it's like, it's kind of kinda weird. 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:27.000 Who's watching the watchers kinda thing? 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:29.000 Yeah. . 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:35.000 Okay. Can I rewind a little bit back to high school? What high school did you go to? 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:41.491 I went to Morris High School, also in Southeast, skyline area. 00:07:41.491 --> 00:07:45.000 Okay. And was there a large contingent of Chamorro kids who went to your high school? 00:07:45.000 --> 00:08:47.000 Uh, I wouldn't say it was large. There's definitely, we all knew each other. I would say that for sure. And there was enough of us, because again, the Guam Club is literally down the street from Lincoln. Lincoln, while I was in high school, had closed for renovations. And so all the kids who could have went there had to go to other schools. A lot of 'em went to Morris. And I did meet a lot of Chamorros that way. And then because again, of the big military presence on Guam and the other island, on the other northern islands, kids tend to find their way, either through their -- mostly, I mean, if I was in high school -- through their parents. Right. And so most of the people I met, they're like, oh yeah, like my parent, my family just moved out here 'cause they're stationed here, you know? And so not a lot. Well enough for sure. It was nice. Like, you see somebody, you see, in their papers or in class, they're doing roll call. You hear the last name. You're like, that's, that's a chamorro last name. 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:51.000 Okay. Can you gimme some examples of what a Chamorro last name would be or how you can tell? 00:08:51.000 --> 00:09:50.000 Yeah. So like, my last name is, um, we would pronounce it Taitingfong. And so we have a lot of last names with T-A-I, it's a prefix that means like, without, and there's like a lot of history there, but if you heard someone Taitingfong, Taitano, Taimagung, Taisagui and then like on my mom's side, there's Acadino, and then there's some Spanish ones that are mixed in. But there's like, you, you could, if, so like my mom, her middle, um, her name was Mediola Acadino, and a Mendiola is not technically Chamorro, but if, if you say your name's Mendiola, and I look at you and I'm like you look Chamorro. Um, so there's some Spanish ones, but then yeah, like the Chamorro ones, [Chamorro surnames] there's like Q-U-I was another popular one, like a prefix where I was like, oh, that might be Chamorro. Because that's how the Spanish wrote it. But in our language, it would be like a K-E. 00:09:50.000 --> 00:10:09.000 And just like the US military, Spain has a long history in that area as well. And with language it seems to have bled through a little bit. Yeah. Uh, can you talk a little bit about how that heritage or history happened and how it affected language? 00:10:09.000 --> 00:11:08.000 Yeah. I want to say, I mean, 'cause Spain has, Spain had a presence in the Marianas for a long time, since like the 1500s. But from what I've read, it was primarily through commerce. They didn't have intentions of colonizing the islands. They were just like, we want a port here. We want to stop. 'Cause they were going from Mexico to the Philippines straight. But if they needed to stop, eventually at some point they're like, oh, here's Guam and here's the other islands, the Northerner Islands and stuff. But I wanna say Guam was the main port. It was the biggest island. And in terms of how that language spread, I mean, again, through commerce and stuff, and then through eventual colonization, primarily through a religious means, the language bled through. And one thing that I think is interesting though is that the Chamorros kind of took their words that they liked and they don't, sometimes they don't mean the same thing. 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:51.000 And then we also treat them as if they are Chamorro words, if that makes sense. Like, we affix them as if they're our own words. And one, one of my friends told me, he's like, the true tale of if we have fully adopted a word is if we afix it however we want, there's some words where we don't, we still -- there's certain phrases I think that stay through. Like, um, if someone says sabe dios, like, we took the word dios for God and say Yu'os, but we also don't say sabe. So like in that context of the phrase sabe dios, it's like, well, we kept that otherwise though. Yeah. We just took words and we're like, we're gonna say it how we say it. Hey, fix it how we affix it. 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:56.000 Very interesting! I like you kind of flip it around and say, no, this is our word now. 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:57.000 Yeah, yeah. 00:11:57.000 --> 00:11:58.000 Are you said that happens quite a bit in the Chamorro language. 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:00.000 Yeah. 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:06.000 And did you start speaking Chamorro at home when you were little or later on? 00:12:06.000 --> 00:13:35.000 Later on. Much later. When the pandemic started, my teacher at the time, Dr. Michael Lujan Bevacqua, he was doing a weekend class on Guam at a coffee shop, maybe like at max 10 people. When the Pandemic started, coffee shops closed, he was like, oh, I should just do it online. And a few months before he had actually like, kind of trial ran it with another group, a group that was based outta the east coast of the United States. And he did like a, I forgot how long it was, but he did a few classes online and was like, oh, this is a feasible way to instruct and so -- excuse me --. And so he was like, okay, I'll open it up to the public at large, you know, Saturday Guam time, Friday in the States. And that's when I, that's when I like really found a good schedule because the first time, technically when I learned online with him was when he did that trial run. And it, quite interestingly, I was on my honeymoon and I was like, Hey, can I do this? And she's like, if you're okay with the time difference, like, sure. You know, and so I was up at like 2:00 AM in Barcelona, in a class for an hour, you know? Um, but that's when it started for me. So I really only started 2020. At the beginning of 2020 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:37.998 Okay. Do you consider yourself fluent? 00:13:37.998 --> 00:14:05.000 I would say pretty, I would say, I could definitely hold a conversation with most speakers. Um, like the real, real fluent elders. Sometimes they speak really fast or if they're, if they're chewing pugua, which is a bit, um, beetle net, which is just something like we, we chew out on the islands sometimes, like the words can get jumbled. I can't catch it. Um, but I would say I'm pretty fluent now. 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:12.486 How popular is Chamorro on Guam? Do people still speak it as a primary language? 00:14:12.486 --> 00:15:02.000 Not right now. There's definitely a cultural shift to get there, especially recently, just within the past, I think month, there is a school that's been running for I think 17 ish years. The Chief Hurao Academy, they do [an] immersion program for children. And I know sometimes they try and do it for adults as well. They just got charter status. And so I want to say it's gonna grow to become even more. But definitely on Guam, it's been in a decline. It's been in decline since World War II. And then I can't speak much for the northern islands for Rota or Saipan. I know folks still speak it. Um, and I want to say though, it is still mostly a at home thing. 'cause even when I went there, I was like really excited to flex my tongue. And I was like, okay. 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:39.000 And then I'd go into a coffee shop, you know, I'm just like, hafa adai and they're like, hafa adai. And then like, that's it, you know? Or the first, actually the first time I was, I had a full conversation was I went to a cemetery to look for family, like family graves and stuff. And I saw this lady and I heard her speaking Chamorro to another coworker. So I walk up and I, I talk, I'm talking to her in Chamorro. And it's funny 'cause she's like snacking on something and she's like, oh, nen, how are you? And nen is short for neni, which is just like, it means baby, but, you know, and a term of endearment, oh nen, how can I help you? And I was just like, oh. 00:15:39.000 --> 00:16:28.000 [Speaking Chamorro] Which is like, oh, I'm sorry, like, if you don't mind, can you help me? And she like wiped her mouth and put her food away. And she was like, whoa. You know? She was kind of like -- and I think it's because I looked younger than somebody who she would assume can speak Chamorro. And I also, I think she could tell I wasn't from the island, you know, the way I was dressed and my accent wasn't good, or like, as typical sounding. And so she started talking back to me and she gave me instructions. And I was just like, okay [speaking Chamorro]. And then, yeah. But I could tell she was like, what is going on? Which was when I realized like, okay, out here, it's still, it's still blossoming, it's still, seeds are still being planted and it's definitely not as much. 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:38.000 Why do you think that the Chamorro language was in a decline and it's needed this revitalization? 00:16:38.000 --> 00:17:26.000 So post World War II, effectively it was made -- I don't know the correct, like legal terms -- I wanna say it was made law made mandate. I don't know what legal term they used, but effectively they were saying, you can't speak Chamorro in public. You can't speak Chamorro at schools. And then at schools, if you were speaking Chamorro, you were like fined financially or physically punished. And because of that, when, you know, you go home and that word gets to your family, they're like, okay, well learn English then. Like, well, maybe we'll speak Chamorro more to you at home. Like, I know my grandparents spoke Chamorro to each other, and I know my parents grew up hearing the language, but because of that, it, it just bled out into all of the villages. 00:17:26.000 --> 00:18:22.000 They're like, don't speak this language, it's your language, but don't speak it. And in public, in schools, you know, save it for the home. And because of that, the language -- maybe if it's only being spoken at home, you go out in public -- it's you, you go out in public and now post World War II, life is different, right? There's so many other things happening now. There's industries that are coming to fruition because of post-war. And, now it's like, well, if I can't speak Chamorro, I can't even create new terms for this. So it's like, I can't communicate, oh, we all speak English though, so, or we're all trying to learn English. So it was, I think it was definitely one of those things, 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:26.000 And that's horrible. First off, ut that, that kind of historical trauma, does it still have its kind of finger around moral culture? 00:18:26.000 --> 00:19:15.000 I would say yes. Um, and I actually didn't feel that way until recently. I tend to be on the optimistic side, I tend to feel very optimistic about the future of the language and the future of many things. Because, on my mom's side, I have one native speaker left. I might have -- my mom understands, I know her, one of her other sisters understands. I actually haven't talked with my uncles in a while. Should probably do that -- I don't know if they understand, but I know a lot of, like my mom's generation, they understand but they don't speak it. And so my mom's eldest sister, um, when I started learning, my mom was like, Hey, by the way, Dabit is learning the language, Dabit is what, like David in Chamorro, like Dabit's learning Chamorro, you should talk with them. 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:50.000 And at first my aunt was like, for real, you know? And I think she even said something to me like, really fast. And I was like, Ooh, I didn't catch that. So she said, it began slower. And I was like, okay, I have someone I can at least try to talk with. And when I finally sat and had a conversation with her, she did open up to me. And we actually had a good long cry, which just like it was, we were at a party and then we just kind of sat off to the side talking about our own thing. And she told me something that like her sisters didn't even know, you know? So when I asked my mom later -- like in the moment, I was already crying 'cause it was sad -- And then later I was like, Hey mom, how come you didn't tell me this? 00:19:50.000 --> 00:20:34.000 And she's like, I have no idea what you're talking about. And I was like, wow. Um, and then I found that to be the case with a lot of the elders, at least who I was talking to in my circles. And, you know, I would go to certain events and I would try and find someone who looks like they'll talk to me or maybe someone I already know and I'm like, oh, I can speak Chamorro now, let me try this. And some of 'em were receptive. Um, but I guess it would depend on where you're at. Because recently I had some family file from the east coast and my dad, it's on my dad's side, and he's like, Hey, your uncle speaks Chamorro, you should talk to him. And when I would try to talk Chamorro to him, he would acknowledge me, but respond in English, you know? 00:20:34.000 --> 00:21:24.000 And after a few sentences, he was like, why are you trying to learn the language? It's dead, you know? And I was like, whoa. Like, it was the first time I had an elder say that. So I was like, oh shoot. And so there's definitely, there's definitely people like that. There's definitely people out there and Chamorro's out there who were like, there's no point. Even though they have the, the knowledge and to share. It's the, I would say the trauma is still there. And then there's also the, um -- my, my mom's sister, the fluent speaker, one reason she was hesitant to converse with me -- primarily the way I asked her, I was like, can you teach me stuff? And the first thing she said was, I can't read the language. And I don't know, like the grammar, you know? And so I was like, okay, let me rephrase this. 00:21:24.000 --> 00:22:01.000 Can we just talk in Chamorro? You know, because like, I didn't care, right? Like your my [aunt], your mom, my grandma wasn't a teacher. Her mom wasn't [a teacher], her mom wasn't. Right. Like these official titles I think sometimes can prevent the elders from wanting to pass down the generation. 'cause they're like, oh, I don't know if it's right. You know? But it's like, but if this is the language you speak with all your peers, like it's technically right, right? Like we have grammar based rules, but at the same time, you know, language has changed, languages fluctuate. 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:10.000 Especially with the influx of all the new technology post World War II, we were talking about. How have the Chamorro people in the Chamorro language incorporated those new terms into language? 00:22:10.000 --> 00:23:05.000 I would say there's like three routes that I can think of off the top of my head. The first route is kind of a common sense approach. Like do we just, do we try to make a word for it or do we just call it what it's, right. So like the word bus, they just say bus. For truck, they just say truck for a machete, they just say machete, right? So like there's that where it's like, just take the word and say it in our tone. There's another approach which is like to take -- oh, and actually in that regard too -- it's like, take the English word or take the Spanish word or whatever and just kind of funnel it into the language. I would say the second approach is trying to create the word or change the word using our own words. 00:23:05.000 --> 00:24:37.000 So I would say one example is, -- excuse me again -- Um, the word escuela, we use it for school, but with a lot of my peers, we also have interest in like reclaiming the language, so to speak. And so when possible it's like, can we recreate this word? And so instead of saying escuela, um, I have friends, actually, I think this is a more accepted term now is fa'na'gue yanggen. And the word [speaking Chamorro] means to learn by doing. And then one of my favorite things about the language, we have a circum-fix. Something that encompasses a word. So it's fan and an if it ends in a consonant or fan and yan if it ends in a vowel. And so [speaking Chamorro] means like a place of learning. So there's like, there's that approach. Um, and then the third approach would be, if it's just too complicated, just spell it how it's, so one example is the app WhatsApp, right? Like, Chamorro's love WhatsApp. And if you have to literally write it, if there's like legal text or something, again, you might see escuela, [speaking Chamorro] and blah blah blah. But they'll put a single quote and just write WhatsApp single quote. And that's kind of how they take, that's kind of how we take the approach to the language. It's like what's actually being said? What can we create so that it's said? And then if not -- like no one's gonna translate X-ray. We're just gonna write X-ray. Just leave it alone. 00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:55.000 That's really interesting. I like that. You'd mentioned, um, kind of the grammatical structure of the language and also writing. You said your aunt was not fluent in a written way, but she was in an oral way. Are you fluent in Chamorro writing? 00:24:55.000 --> 00:26:05.000 Yes. And I would actually say maybe more so than some of my peers because in the current moment there are two official orthographies, orthography being the, like the written rules about how we portray the language. And so there's the Guam orthography and the NMI orthography, the Northern Marianas Island orthography. Um, the Guam orthography is a one word, one spelling approach. And the NMI orthography is a one sound, one symbol. And this comes in, I think they both have strengths, they both have weaknesses. Um, but I know both and right now, because, I mean Guam's the bigger island and, I would say they have more resources. I think more people know the Guam orthography than they do the NMI orthography. And so for me, I started with the Guam orthography and I was getting confused at some points. But once I started teaching I realized I liked the NMI orthography more for helping people pronunciate things. 00:26:05.000 --> 00:27:00.000 Because when you read something written in the NMI, it's written how it sounds, which is useful for reading. Um, I would say for new people it's confusing. Because like the word tiningo', which means like knowledge tiningo' that last syllable was like, ooh. Um, but when you start to afix it and change it, like if I wanted to say my knowledge, I would say tiningo'-hu right? And so that difference in sound when you read it, it's like, okay, yeah. But now if you're trying to learn the word, you don't know which one to look up really. Guam doesn't have that problem one word, one spelling, no matter how you say it. Which I think has created interesting variations in speakers already. Like I have friends who only know the Guam orthography and they pronounce words the way they see 'em. And I would say that's due to a lack of speakers around them. 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:33.000 But again, like that's probably just what's gonna happen. There's gonna be like a dialect of folks who learned by reading. Not a problem. But it's just like, it's something I've started to pick up on through my, through listening. Whereas like with the NMI orthography too. If I give somebody something in the NMI orthography, they think they're looking up like three or four words, you know? I'm like, oh no, this is the same word. It's just they spell it based on how it sounds and so that it can get confusing there. Uh, but yeah, to answer your question, I would say I'm pretty good with it. , 00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:45.000 It sounds like it! Your pretty knowledgeable about both just sets of orthographies. Is Chamorro a gendered language? Like Spanish is where there's a masculine and a feminine 00:27:45.000 --> 00:28:15.000 For borrowed words. Yeah. So like for teacher you would say most folks would probably say maestro or maestra. Uh, but we do have like, let's say an indigenous term fafa'na'gue, which isn't gendered at all. Um, and then we have like the word saina, which means like elder. But we do also have mom and dad, Nana and Tata. But I believe even those are borrowed. So in its the truest sense, no, but when we borrow words, definitely. 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:22.000 I see. Alright. Rewinding once again after high school, um, did you go to college? 00:28:22.000 --> 00:29:07.000 Yes. Yeah. So, well, I went to college and then I got DQ'ed, I got academically disqualified, went to community college and then was too proud to pull out loans or ask for money. So I was working. So I did that. School, got kicked out, work. I did that for four years. 2012, joined the military. A lot of irony there. Got out in 2016, went back to school. Well, I went back to school before I even got out. But at 2016, went back to Southwestern College in Chula Vista, got my associates, transferred to Cal State Long Beach. And then I finished up in 2019. 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:08.000 Okay. And what was your degree in? 00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:09.999 Computer science. 00:29:09.999 --> 00:29:12.000 Computer science. And what branch of the military were you in? 00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:13.998 Marine Corps. Yeah. 00:29:13.998 --> 00:29:26.000 Okay. And after you graduated, did you immediately go into the computer science field or was there a time where you were kind of figuring out what you wanted to do? 00:29:26.000 --> 00:30:33.000 So I went right into it because during my last semester, I had an internship when I was at Cal State Long Beach. I had an internship with Northrop Grumman in their, like, aerospace sector. They like renamed it. At the time it was called Aerospace. It might be called something different like space. Oh, it's called, I think now it's called Space Systems. And they have aeronautical systems. 'cause they wanted that elevation difference . Um, but I, so I was doing that. And yeah, it was a mix of like computer science, computer engineering, what I was doing there. When they gave me a job offer, I asked them if I can go to San Diego. They got me one, went down to San Diego, one of the offices in RB (Rancho Bernardo). And yeah, I was doing, I would say it was still like a mix of what I was doing. There was like a little computer sciencey somewhat IT, like some--they call it DevOps. Like it's kind of like the middle boat. And then now I work at Apple and I'm doing like legit software development. 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:44.000 Very cool. Congratulations! And do you meet Chamorro software engineers frequently or Pacific Islanders software engineers? 00:30:44.000 --> 00:31:55.000 Yeah. I wouldn't say frequently. 'cause that definitely whenever I meet even a Pacific Islander in, in tech, it's always like, oh wow. Um, in terms of Chamorro's though, I wanna say the first software engineer I met was through one of Dr. Michael's classes. I'm not, I'm gonna just call him Miget , um, Miget's classes. And he's a software engineer for Costco. I think he lives in the Pacific Northwest. And I was like, oh wow, that's cool. Like, I've never met another one. He's like, oh, have you met Benny? And so he introduced me to another, another guy older than me. I was like, should I call him uncle? I don't think so. But Benny, he's a, he's been a software developer for like 20 something years. Doing mostly like web development. And so I was like, oh wow, okay. There's more of us. But aside from that, I don't think, I know there is, I haven't met this person, but I know someone is running, there's like an online dictionary. They took this Chamorro dictionary and made it into a website. And I know they're running it or like they were given the grant to do it or something. And so I know, I don't know who that person is though. I, I should reach out. 00:31:55.000 --> 00:32:03.968 That's very cool. So they're like a, so it sounds like there's like a network--Or at least loosely? 00:32:03.968 --> 00:32:28.000 If there is, I'm not a part of it yet. I have always wanted to, because even though my interest started in computer science, because I got so deep in the language space, I, I have always wanted to do something in the computational linguistics field. Ever since I started learning, I'm like, man, this would be really cool. But I just haven't because I've been too busy trying to learn the language and trying to teach the language. 00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:48.000 Do you feel like you're close to a point now where you might be able to move towards that computational linguistics? Because from an outsider's perspective, it sounds like you're very fluent and very knowledgeable about the language and how it's structured and you could teach it. 00:32:48.000 --> 00:33:27.000 Yeah, I don't think so. I think it's, to me, it's still a dream just because I have found so much community and love and appreciation for the work I'm doing. Like, just like on social media, you know, or just by meeting with people and speaking the language to them. I think right now, that outweighs my desire to try and beat Google at creating a translate. Because if you go to translate.google.com, they have Chamorro. And in the past month we've been roasting it 'cause it's incredibly wrong. It's so wrong. It's funny. 00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:42.000 Okay. Um, speaking of social media, I noticed that you have an Instagram page that's kind of devoted to the Chamorro language and Chamorro culture and experience. What caused you to want to create that? 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:53.000 There was a time, I think I started last year. So currently I'm on break because I have a four month old at home. 00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:54.000 Congratulations! 00:33:54.000 --> 00:34:32.000 Thank you. But I was like, I'm gonna take a break because I'm probably not gonna have the time. And then my wife's back in school, so it was like, okay, really no time. But when I had started it, my cousin had showed me a video from TikTok and there was a guy, he's not even Chamorro, but I think his wife is Chamorro, and he was just speaking Chamorro. He was a student of the Chief Hurao Academy. He did their adult program. He's like, uh, he's like, I should learn because my kid, I want my kid to learn. And so he had a video and he made stuff he like, was just saying, I think, I don't even remember what the video was about. 00:34:32.000 --> 00:35:14.000 I think it was just phrases. But you can tell from the video that he was on island because he was making references that like, you probably only understand if you're around the culture. And specifically on the island though. And my cousin showed me this and she was like, Dabit, you should do this. You should make videos like you're a good teacher. 'cause at the time too, actually, I was doing my own Zoom class with my cousins, which reminds me, I told them I'd start back up and I haven't, but I was doing that and they're like, you should do this. You're so social, you're so out there. Like, you should just do it. And yeah, that's really it. I just, one day I was like, you know what, here's some lines. Make a video. I put it out there. And then I did it again. 00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:51.000 I don't think it was until maybe the fifth video where people were like, who is this guy? Why are you, you know? And then I had people comment, I had friends who were like, do you write scripts? And I was like, not really. They're like, you should write scripts, blah, blah, blah. They're like, it looks like you're doing all your videos in one take. I'm like, I am. They're like, don't. They're like, just say what you can. Don't stop recording if you mess up. Just like kind of run it back and just stitch things together. And I was like, oh my god. Yeah. This is so much better. Um, and then it's actually funny because I haven't made a video since like four or five months ago. But recently I went to Oregon. They had the first annual, the first ever, I don't know what the correct term is. 00:35:51.000 --> 00:37:01.000 There was a Mariana's Festival in Fair, Fairview, Oregon. And I went there and there's another Chamorro social, um, like social media person who doesn't make language content necessarily. It's like, not the focus, but she's trying to incorporate it. And she was like, we should go around and ask people stuff. I'll ask in English, you ask, you want, and when I checked this morning, I think the video, the video's been up for like a week and it has like over a hundred thousand views. Wow. People are texting my mom and she's like, is this your son? Because it came up on my feed. You know, people are, people are texting my wife, they're like, is this your husband? Like, what? he popped up on my feed? You know? Or like my sister-in-law, she's like, oh my God, look what just popped up on my feed. You, you know? And I'm just like, wow. Um, and yeah, like, man, like practically every comment is like, wow, it's so cool to hear the language. Because at the festival I knew the, I knew like my friends who were there, who were speakers who were in the same classes as me, so I felt comfortable asking them, you know, I was like, yeah, like blah, blah, blah. And people were like, wow, these people, these kids, you know, they look at me and they're like, these kids know the language and Okay. 00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:15.000 It, it's a very cool video. I actually watched it before our meeting today. It's really interesting. And I actually had a couple questions regarding the video. Mostly to do with kind of food and culture and how those two kind of intersect. You have mentioned that one of your favorite foods was apigigi'? 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:19.000 Apigigi' 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:21.497 Apigigi'. And what is apigigi'? 00:37:21.497 --> 00:38:02.000 So it is a, it's a cooked dessert. So you get like coconut shreds. Well, I used coconut shreds. I don't know if some people use the shredded coconut. I'm not sure. Actually. I use coconut shreds. But you put that and then you have, um, we call it mendioka. It's, I think it's tapioca like the starch and stuff. Um, with some leche niyok , which is the coconut milk and sugar, you mix it all together, you slap it in, traditionally a banana leaf and then you wrap it up, close it, you grill it, and then you wait until it closes down and then you can eat it. 00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:03.499 Sounds delicious! 00:38:03.499 --> 00:38:07.000 It is! Yeah. And it's not that many ingredients, you know, so it's like really easy. 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:11.000 And the other dish that I heard mentioned was, um, Kelaguen? 00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:12.000 Kelaguen. 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:16.000 And it sounded like you could have kelaguen with multiple different kinds of protein? 00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:17.000 Yes. 00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:18.998 So what is kelaguen? 00:38:18.998 --> 00:39:18.000 Kelaguen is effectively, it's kind of like an escabeche. That's how we say it. I don't even know what the?...a ceviche? Okay. Um, I think technically the term comes from a Filipino word, kilawin. And their kilawin was, I wanna say more fish based. But yeah, you, you effectively take a protein and cook it in acid. Like that's really all it is. I think. I was actually taught recently that the traditional word before kelaguen was just, um, naynay. And I could see how that can fall out of use. Mm. Um, but technically that, yeah, that it's just cooking something in like acids. So the most popular one is kelaguen mannok or chicken kelaguen. You grill your meat, you chop it up, not too big, not too small. And then you get like, salt, lemon, add your decorations, like your green onions and stuff. 00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:57.000 But effectively the salt also helps cook it. And it come and you serve it cold though, you know, so you, after you cook and everything, you mix everything. You don't serve it, you can eat it the same day. Growing up, my family always did it, and then we ate it the next day. Because it's a bit softer. The first and last time I made kelaguen katne, which is beef kelaguen. Um, I cut it too big. But yeah, it was just that. And then it was like lemon vinegar, soy sauce or something. So I forget all the ingredients I added. Put it in the fridge the next day we were eating it, you know, and I was like, I was like, is this really gonna cook it? And they're like, yes, chemistry, it's gonna work. I promise 00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:05.000 That's great. And when you prepare food, is it a communal thing or is it a single chef preparing meals for everyone? 00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:50.000 You know, growing up it was definitely a communal thing. At least when it came to, I mean, especially when it came to the Fiesta, you're doing a lot of things. You know, at the Guam Club, they have an outdoor kitchen, or they had, I haven't been there in a while, like the kitchen area, but I remember they had a table that was really just like a cutting board. The, the whole table was like a cutting board. And yeah, they would have people grilling, they'd bring the chicken over and you chop it up, you know, you're doing everything and then you pass it on to the next person. Each person kind of had a role, you know. You had people grilling, you had the people tearing the meat off the bone, then you had the people cutting, then you had the people mixing, you know, and then you had the people like, um, setting it aside, preparing it and stuff. 00:40:50.000 --> 00:41:44.000 When I, the last, the first and last time, no, no, no. It wasn't the first last time I made apigigi' I did it for the language immersion program we did here. Prugraman Sinipok. And I taught the class. And so like, that was a communal thing. We had everybody make it. I was worried at first 'cause like, oh, they're not gonna all be the same. But I think it gave it a kind of like, nice little style. It's like, oh, some people made it this way. Some people made 'em real small. Some people made 'em big , you know. And, and I remember when we brought it to the, the following day, there was a picnic for the Guam Liberation. And I brought it and people were so surprised. They were like, nobody ever does this. And in my mind I was like, what? This is the easiest thing to make . And so now it's like something I want to do, kind of a tradition. Like I almost wanna start in my family now. Maybe with just me first, like, oh, I think I can show you how to make it if you like it. Um, so traditionally I would say very communal thing. 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:58.359 And you mentioned your family and bringing the Chamorro culture into your family and making it a part of your own family. Do you speak Chamorro to your children? 00:41:58.359 --> 00:42:50.000 So I try to with our 4-year-old, gonna be five in October. I try to as much as I can with him because he is more cognizant and more responsive. It can be hard, but I know he's getting it. With our baby. I only speak Chamorro to the baby. Sometimes I'll say things to my mom in Chamorro because I know she understands. Not so much with my dad though, because I know his understanding is less. And so I guess it would depend on what it is. Like, if it's like, I'm like, oh, where's mom? I'll say that, you know. But with my mom, I can say like, oh, are you gonna go outside because if you are, can you do this? You know, like longer thoughts. My wife picks up the things I say to the kids. So she knows those words, but I don't talk to her in Chamorro. 00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:52.000 Okay. 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:56.000 And my sister lives with us. She said she wants to learn. She's waiting for me to start teaching 00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:00.000 So you gotta get on it. . 00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:02.994 Yeah, gotta get on it. 00:43:02.994 --> 00:43:09.000 Has your wife or your father or mother, have they shown more interest now that you are so into the language? 00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:23.000 Yes. My mom, especially now that I only speak Chamorro to this baby. And so within the last four months I've heard more Chamorro come out of my mom's mouth than the last two or three years we've lived together. Which is something, you know. 00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:24.000 That's wonderful. 00:43:24.000 --> 00:44:01.843 Yeah. Even if it's funny little things like, did you poop? Or why are you stinky? Let's change your diaper. But because it's the only way I communicate with this baby, I think it makes my mom want to. And my dad will say words like, you're stinky, you know, or you pooped, you threw up. You know, very short things. But definitely again, like the most Chamorro I've ever heard, leave his mouth, you know? Um, yeah. 00:44:01.843 --> 00:44:09.000 That's great! And, you mentioned the Prugraman Sinipok and that's a cultural immersion program. For two weeks or so outta the year, they take students from all over and immerse them in the Chamorro cultural and language. 00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:09.500 Yes. 00:44:09.500 --> 00:44:11.995 And how did that start? 00:44:11.995 --> 00:45:35.000 So this was the third year. This was the first year I helped though. It started through someone else. Uh, her name is June Pangelinan. She lives in like the Bay Area (near San Francisco, CA). Or near there, I would say. But she, it, it was like her thing. She was also a student of Miget's and was like, I think we should, I think we should do a language immersion program. You know, and Miget was just like, if you plan it, I'll do it. You know, 'cause Miget is always down, but in, in the same way. For me, it's like, I'm always down, but I don't want to plan. Like, if you tell me what I can do or give me a spot, I will fulfill that role for however long. I'm just not good at planning though. But yeah. So it was, it was June's like, whole vision. You know, she linked up with Miget and the first two years they actually did it on Guam. And like, so yeah, like that first year I tried to go. It, it didn't work out for me 'cause I was actually in the middle of switching jobs. So when the program was happening, that's when I was going to join Apple. And so it didn't line up. I tried to, I tried to make it line up. I was like, no, okay, I'll leave work, go to Guam, come back, start working. 00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:37.495 Just didn't quite line up. 00:45:37.495 --> 00:45:38.495 Yeah, exactly. 00:45:38.495 --> 00:45:45.000 And how many students in general have you seen the program grow over the last three years? Or has it stayed kind of the same core group of students? 00:45:45.000 --> 00:46:29.000 It's stayed the same number of students. I would say. Like no more than 20, maybe especially the first two years. Because they had to fly to Guam and then pay for the program and then probably get housing if they didn't have family or know anybody out there. Out here, it was less of a, I would say a burden, but maybe less of a interest for some people. Because from my understanding, from what I was told the first two years, I would say we're definitely more culturally focused. Not as much language. This year, there was a lot of language, but we didn't have as much culture. We definitely had culture and they definitely had language, but the offset was there for sure. 00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:34.000 Because it was harder to do here in San Diego. Couldn't go to the same Island towns? 00:46:34.000 --> 00:47:04.000 Yeah. I, we had a Liberation picnic at Balboa Park. They have a house of Chamorros, which is like amazing within itself because usually it's relegated for countries. Right. and then the Guam Club. And then we have local folks whose parents are still alive. And so like, there was a day where we went out, we went down to Chula Vista and, you know, tried to get with them and hear the language come from them. 00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:12.000 Very cool. Is it, is it common that elders will want to participate in the program? 00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:54.000 I would say not common. Definitely not common. We have some elders. We have some elders in the classes that Miget teaches because for them they're like, oh, I know the language, but I don't know how to read it. You know, or I don't know how to write it. So that's what they join for, but they speak the language mm-hmm. So it's like a big benefit to the other students who join. 'cause they could hear it come fluently. But then, and it's always funny too. Yeah. 'cause when I started communicating with, with these folks and when they would write stuff, I'm like, they're literally writing it the way they say it. And to me, that was amazing. You know, it's like, oh, I wasn't sick. 00:47:54.000 --> 00:48:15.000 But yeah,it was really hard. This wasn't my job and I'm thankful it wasn't my job. It was my friend, Clarissa Mangiola, I call her mames, which just means sweet. Reese, it was, it was, it was her job to find folks who would want to participate. And from what she told me, it was really hard. Yeah. 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:17.000 Why do you think that is? 00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:49.000 There's, I think this goes back to maybe the trauma part where some folks might not see use in the language. A lot of times they don't feel qualified to teach us. And I, I think it's part of the approach of the way we approach them, where it's like, can you teach these kids what you know? Or can, you know, impress upon them your knowledge or whatever. And they feel like, well, oh, they don't want to hear me speak because I don't speak like academically or I don't speak professionally. 00:48:49.000 --> 00:49:45.000 I don't speak eloquently. You know, which is to me always been funny because that's not the Chamorro I've ever wanted to learn. Like, I didn't want to learn like a city academic, Chamorro, you know, I wanted to hear the way my grandparents spoke, specifically my mom's mom. When I think back, my dad's mom did kind of feel, she definitely had an accent and stuff, but it definitely felt more proper. And where, and the village she's from is like the capital of Guam, you know? So it's like, very much surrounded by the like American culture, but where my mom's mom is from, considered the south and very much different. You know, more rural, you know, country living, so to speak. And so that, that's when I actually started learning the language. She, my mom's mom is who I picked to model my speak chapter. 00:49:45.000 --> 00:50:04.000 And my aunties are like, that's not how mom sounded, you know. But it's gotten me a lot of compliments from elders. They're like, wow, you're good. Like, where did you learn to speak? You know? I'm like, memory really? Because I don't have any audio recordings or anything of my grandmother. Just kind of what's embedded in me. 00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:07.000 Were you able to speak more with your grandmother while she was here? 00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:36.000 No. So I didn't start learning until 2020. My dad's mom passed in, 2009, 2010. And then my mom's mom passed in 2012. And so yeah, I did not. The closest I would say is my mom's sister. She's still around, thankfully. And every time I get the chance I talk to her in Chamorro. 00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:44.397 If you could have a conversation with your mom's mom, what would you like to talk about? 00:50:44.397 --> 00:51:30.000 Wow. That's a good question. I would probably, I would ask her about her childhood and just start from there. Because there's, when we started learning the language, when Miget started teaching the language, he told everyone, if you have speakers in your family, talk to them. He's like, don't ask them about the war. Do not ask them about the war. You know, he was always very, you know, because it's definitely not something they like to talk about, you know? Um, but I would definitely just be like, where did you actually grow up? 'cause I don't know if she grew up in Yona, it's the village. She repped and claimed, but I don't know if she like spent her childhood there. I would ask her what she remembers about her grandparents or her parents. What her favorite foods were, what her most annoying chores were. 00:51:30.000 --> 00:52:16.000 Things like, what did you do for fun? You know? 'cause that's like another thing that I came to realize was, something that kind of skipped--it would come into this language barrier where the things, as I've talked to other elders, I asked them what they used to do for fun. It's like stuff I wouldn't consider fun. It's like, not stuff I thought they would say. You know, like I had an elder tell me, oh, when we were cleaning, we would race to see who could clean certain-- a board of the house faster. You know, they would like, okay, these are my two boards. These are your two boards and we'll race. And the reason it was fun though, is because for scrubbers, they would literally use coconut shells, you know, the really husky ones and they would just like scrub it. 00:52:16.000 --> 00:53:03.000 They're like, whoever can do it first, you know, wins. And he told me that and I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. I mean, I could see how that could be fun if you're doing it with your siblings. You know, your friends. And so I definitely would like to know what my grandmas liked doing for fun, what her favorite foods were. 'cause they're definitely, I would assume different, you know? 'cause even something like kelaguen mannok, I wouldn't even consider that like an everyday meal because it takes so much labor. It's not, it's definitely not something you're doing all the time. You know, we have like soups for that, you know. If she remembers what kind of music. As I've learned, as I've delve deeper into the language, I've become more aware of cultural things. I'd probably ask her that. I'd ask her if there were any talageros who's in her family, which are like the fisher people who go out and throw the nets. 00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:39.000 If any of her family sang. Kantan Chamorrita, which is like a, it's like a free verse style singing, which I've come to been told is some folks used to communicate like that. Like just through singing they would say the language, they'd be singing what they're doing. And then if the other person knows the tune, they do it back. You know, some kantan chamorritas are meant for competition. Some of 'em are meant to be endearing. Some of 'em are meant to be wooing someone, you know. So I definitely would ask her like very specific her things, maybe village things. But then definitely would like, I'd be interested about the culture, 00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:45.000 That would be a very cool way to communicate with somebody in kind of a song. Call and repeat kind of thing. 00:53:45.000 --> 00:54:33.000 Yeah. When I went to Oregon, actually, when I was hanging out, I went there with two of my-- I went there to visit two of my friends, they live there. They're speakers. They're like, I would consider them my teachers now, you know? And we were out in the city, we were like walking back from dinner or something, and my friend just starts going with a tune, like, you know. And he was like and then he looked at me and I was like, oh, shoot, okay. I was like, you're not done with your verse, but I'll go, you know . And we just, we did that for a good couple of blocks and I was actually surprised. I was like, wow. Like I was able to do that, you know? 00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:35.000 I was like, sometimes they didn't make sense, but-- 00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:48.000 You just stuck with it and you were right there in the, the melody and verse.--and I know we're running out of time here, but did you have anything that you wanted to talk about or anything that you wanted to say? 00:54:48.000 --> 00:55:51.000 I don't know if I have anything specific. Just that I'm very grateful that I'm able to learn the language because I've had tremendous support from my family, from my friends, from my wife, my kids, you know. I know people who struggle to find the time, you know, struggle to fit it within the typical schedules, right? Like Miget's class used to be Fridays at 4:00 PM until-- 4:00 PM or 5:00 PM and 6:00 PM all the way up until 7:00 PM. And then, once November rolls around. We do daylight saving times. Guam doesn't. And so it's like 3:00 PM--, you know, now though, it's Saturday in the States 'cause he does 'em on Sunday, so it'll probably be a little bit easier. But, I just know so many people. There's people who we started in the same classes 2020 January. Right. And I'm so far ahead of them. 00:55:51.000 --> 00:56:53.000 It's, and I don't know if that's a testament to just how deep I went or also how much time I've been able to give because, yeah, like, at the festival I ran into someone and I was, we've been in classes for years and I was, I didn't have a good grasp of how fluent they were, but when I saw 'em, I was so excited. I hugged them really tight and I was like, oh my God. And then I just started going, you know, and she was just like, you're so fluent now. What happened? You know? And so, yeah, like honestly, I'm just incredibly grateful that I've been able to learn as much as I can. And actually recently, well not even recently, it's been since December, I have another teacher who's teaching me stuff too. I would say like deeper context of things because as much as I love Miget's class, there was a point where he has to start over. 00:56:53.000 --> 00:57:25.000 You know, it's like college for him. Gotta start over, gotta start over. And so there came to a certain point where I was like, shoot, I need more. You know? 'cause I definitely don't think staying in his classes forever will benefit you as much as getting the taste. It's like college, getting the taste and then going on. And so I'm just happy that I was able to find other people who also want to go deeper into the language, learn as much as we can. We found a teacher and so, I mean, that's really it. I'm just incredibly grateful. 00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:31.000 That's awesome. We're very grateful for you coming out here and spending the time and giving this interview. So I just wanna say thank you very much. 00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:33.545 Yeah, of course. Thank you. 00:57:33.545 --> 00:57:38.545 Alright., take this. We were an hour on the dot. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials&#13 ; from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_access_2024-08-30.xml TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_access_2024-08-30.xml https://archivessearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Taitingfong, David. Interview August 30th, 2024. Description An account of the resource David Taitingfong is a member of the Chamorro community and involved with the group Prugraman Sinipok, which teaches a two week Chamorro language immersion program. David describes his involvement with Prugraman Sinipok and how his interest in sharing the Chamorro lanugage and culture has shaped his life. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-083 Subject The topic of the resource Language revival Chamorro language Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania Colonization -- Japan Colonization -- United States -- Guam Decolonization -- Guam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-08-30 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f1954c51e658c7c1490af7202f3dbde2.pdf 5ca2c1981c17983bb5b3e2fb65211dd5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Taitingfong, David. Interview Transcript August 30th, 2024. Description An account of the resource David Taitingfong is a member of the Chamorro community and involved with the group Prugraman Sinipok, which teaches a two week Chamorro language immersion program. David describes his involvement with Prugraman Sinipok and how his interest in sharing the Chamorro lanugage and culture has shaped his life. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource David Taitingfong Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-07-22 Subject The topic of the resource Language revival Chamorro language Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania Colonization -- Japan Colonization -- United States -- Guam Decolonization -- Guam Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English and Chamorro Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. David Taitingfong License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_2025-07-22_Transcript Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Guam, United States San Diego (Calif.) Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history Prugraman Sinipok Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Linda Kallas Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joanne Tawfilis OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Tawfilis, Joanne. Interview October 31, 2022. SC027-052 01:11:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Military base closures ; United States. Army ; United States. Navy ; Muramid Arts Center (Oceanside, Calif.) ; Mural painting and decoration ; Bosnian Women's Initative ; Srebrenica Massacre, Srebrenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1995 ; Orphanages--Bosnia and Herzegovina ; International Atomic Energy Agency ; Unesco ; Art Miles Project Joanne Tawfilis Linda Kallas mp4 1.0:|18(13)|37(10)|52(10)|63(18)|75(9)|88(4)|102(6)|112(4)|126(7)|138(9)|149(7)|159(14)|169(10)|188(12)|198(5)|208(14)|218(3)|227(14)|242(9)|252(6)|268(6)|278(17)|287(9)|297(7)|310(8)|320(20)|330(11)|348(5)|359(6)|374(6)|384(15)|397(8)|408(13)|417(3)|428(8)|441(17)|451(5)|467(3)|476(18)|486(15)|496(11)|508(12)|519(5)|529(12)|540(11)|550(11)|559(5)|570(13)|579(12)|593(6)|607(11)|621(5)|630(4)|641(10)|655(13)|665(4)|676(5)|690(12)|701(4)|711(13)|728(15)|740(15)|749(7)|766(4)|776(13)|786(11)|798(10)|814(9)|825(13)|841(9)|854(16)|862(8)|953(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b2580fba038f13dc496911c1023b4dcf.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Interview with Joanne Tawfilis by Linda Kallas, October 31, 2022. Linda Kallas ; Joanne Tawfilis 0 45 Early life and childhood Tawfilis talks about her early life, where she was born in New London, Connecticut and offers a brief introduction to her family. Family ; New London Connecticut ; Filipino ; Dad 0 90 Moving and living in California Tawfilis talks about her moving to California, as well as mentions how San Diego County is one her favorite places she has ever been to. It is here where she also discovered her sense of community through the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center. San Diego ; 1971 ; travelling ; retirement ; moving ; Multicultural center ; Oceanside 0 240 Career as an artist Tawfilis talks about how she started her career in art, from doing illustrations with the U.S. Government, United Nations, and civilian sectors. Tawfilis's career included working at the Submarine School in Connecticut, the Navy and country's Bicentennial, and as an International Military Training Coordinator. Tawfilis also speaks to the impact of Chicano Park. Military ; United Nations ; San Diego ; Chicano Park ; Submarine School in Connecticut 0 597 International Work Tawfilis describes her time doing work both for the military and the United Nations. As part of her work with the military, Tawfilis did bas closure studies. Tawfilis was offered a job and moved to Germany, and from there had the opportunity to work in almost every European country doing base closures. Tawfilis also worked for the Vista Volunteer Program and then the United Nations. It is through these experiences that she learned other languages and honed her people skills. It is also through this opportunity that Tawfilis worked in countries going through turmoil and war, such as Somalia, and Cold War Germany, where she worked closely with the constant unrest around there. Military ; Travel ; United Nations ; Germany ; Austria ; Army ; Kettle Falls, Washington ; Europe ; Atomic Energy Agency ; United Nations Environment Program in Nairobi ; Sergeant Shriver ; Peace Corps ; Americorps ; Vista Volunteer Program ; Africa ; Somalia ; AIDS ; Gigiri ; War ; Germany ; Austria ; Cold war ; Berlin Wall ; Army Management Staff College 0 1077 Work with the United Nations Tawfilis talks about her time working with the United Nations, the conditions of U.N. employees that are local nationals, and briefly speaks about why she was car-napped. United Nations ; Vienna ; Austria ; Africa ; Kidnapping ; Bosnia 0 1211 Work in Bosnia / end of her career Tawfilis speaks about the end of her career, close to her retirement. Given a choice of working at the Pentagon or working in Bosnia, Tawfilis took a position as the Director of the Bosnian Women's Initiative (commonly known as the Widows of Srebrenica) in response to the Srebrenica massacre of six to seven thousand men. This choice led her to eventually work in an orphanage, where Tawfilis worked with children in creating art. Tawfilis mentions her TED talk "Painting Outside the Lines" where she goes into more detail on the project. Bosnia ; retirement ; Washington D.C ; Army ; Serbia ; Women ; murder ; TED Talk ; TED-X ; UCSD ; Orange Coast College ; Orphanage 0 1645 Artwork through the Orphanage Tawfilis describes her time working for the orphanage, and explains how working for the orphanage, led her to her passion for art through the children there. Tawfilis also began to work on murals honoring specific tragic events.&#13 ; &#13 ; Orphanage ; Children ; Yesterday and Tomorrow ; Art ; Religion ; Bombings ; UN ; Connecticut ; Art Mile ; Avenida de Los Artistas ; Foulad 0 2129 The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center Tawfilis describes setting up the The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, which is the first mural museum in the world. She explains here how they came up with ideas for various murals. She also breifly describes how they are made, using objects such as PVC to make the murals in multiple dimensions. Tawfilis also mentions how their murals are located all over the world. Giza ; The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center ; Pyramid ; Egypt ; Oceanside ; Irvine ; Japan ; Murals ; International Decade for the Culture of Peace 0 2280 Art Miles Tawfilis talks about the art project referred to as "Art Miles" which is a series of murals that spans a long distance. Mural themes have included peace, unity, and women, and also tackle issues from every human and natural disaster. The project has also done murals on cultural creations such as sports and music. Tawfilis details some of the murals and what they represent, and speaks to mural making as a form of self improvement and healing, in response to their often tragic origins. Women ; Art Miles ; diasters ; Murals ; climate change ; Children’s Environmental Health Network ; Music ; Sports ; Japan ; Guinness Book of World Records ; United Arab Emirates ; NCAI ; Africa ; Native Americans ; Guiness Book of World Records 0 3036 Murals, continued Tawfilis talks about how the ideas of the murals spread, and how they are able to reach out following a tragic event and create a mural for that community, hoping for something that will mean a lot to these people, instead of payment. Tawfilis also talks about some of the logistics of running a non-profit that creates murals. non-profit ; emotion ; Creator ; non-governmental organizations 0 3283 Sprituality, people, and culture in the murals Tawfilis speaks to the importance of culture and representation -- especially of indigenous cultures in murals, and that the Muramid's global scope is vital to North San Diego County's fabric. Catholic ; Connecticut ; Mission ; Luiseno ; North County ; Indigenous communities ; Diversity 0 3433 Enslaved Africans and indigenous peoples Tawfilis gives a background of slavery post-civil war and a loophole that was used to continue to bring enslaved peoples into the United States. Tawfilis speaks to how in Oceanside, the gentrification and commercialization of the area is leading to the destruction of its natural beauty and history. Tawfilis mentions the Muramid's ties to UNESCO as a Center for Peace for all of California and Baja. Tawfilis also speaks of Mexican and Luiseño peoples, how similar their experiences are with the destruction of their local communities for the sake of tourism and advancement. Slavery ; Mobile, Alabama ; Africa ; History ; Mural ; Commercialization ; Oceanside ; UNESCO ; Center for Peace for all of California and Baja ; Mashantucket Pequots ; Mexicans ; Indigenous people ; Machu Pichu ; Egypt ; Valley Arts Center ; Luiseño 0 3834 Future initiatives &#13 ; Tawfilis discusses her future plans which include writing books, finding a home for twelve miles of murals, and the Endangered Planet Foundation. History ; Murals ; Books ; Smithsonian ; Endangered Planet Foundation ; Cave Men ; Machu Pichu ; United States ; Expressing Emotion 0 4063 Final messages Tawfilis expresses her final thoughts, from acknowledging each other's differences in opinions, to never giving up on a goal like going to school. She also has one last moment to share her awards and how proud her father would be of her seeing her accomplishments. Opinions ; differences ; awards ; PhD ; Arlington National Cemetery ; Filipino ; North County 0 Joanne Tawfilis is the executive director of the Art Miles Mural Project, which has had the participation of over 500,000 people from 125 countries to paint murals. Tawfilis and her late husband Fouad started the Art Miles Mural Project after Tawfilis worked with orphans in Bosnia, where they created a murals using the only materials available -- a 10 gallon can of white wall pain and bedsheets riddled with bullet holes. The Art Miles Mural Project is currently homed at the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center in Oceanside, California, where there are electronic displays of over 5,000 murals, art classes, music, and spoken word performances. &#13 ; &#13 ; Tawfilis has had a storied career and has worked with the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Women of Srebrenica Project, and UNESCO. In her interview, Tawfillis discusses her career working as a civilian employee of the military, as well as her work with the United Nations, IAEA, and the Women of Srebrenica Project. Tawfilis also discusses the creation of the Art Miles Mural Project, the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, and her thoughts on art as a vehicle for healing, empathy, and peace. Linda Kallas: Today is October 31, 2022. I am Linda Kallas, and I am interviewing Joanne Tawfilis as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Thank you for joining me today, Joanne. Joanne Tawfilis: Thank you, Linda. Glad to be here. Kallas: It’s my pleasure. I’m going to give you some questions, and you’re going to answer them and to the best of your ability and we’ll just keep moving through the questions. Okay? Tawfilis: Okay, sounds good. Kallas: First of all, when and where were you born? Tawfilis: I was born in New London, Connecticut, and, um, a long time ago, (laughs) almost seventy-seven years. Kallas: And was your family an active part of any cultural communities where you grew up? Tawfilis: Actually, my family was one of the first Filipino American families in the town that I was born in. Um, we had a huge family, and then another family came and there was sort of a competition between the two families on, I think, who could have the most kids. Kallas: Oh! (chuckles) Tawfilis: And I think my dad won! (both Joanne and Linda laugh) Kallas: Um, so you didn’t grow up in North County. You moved here how many years ago? Tawfilis: Oh, it was—I moved here probably, um, in 1971, was when I first came to California. But then with my career I traveled all over the world, so I was back and forth on a regular basis. Uh, I had children and grandchildren here, and when I retired in the year 2000, I decided to settle here in paradise. (nods) Kallas: Nice. And how do you like living and working here since then? Tawfilis: Oh, I love San Diego County. Out of all the places I’ve ever been, I think that what I—I love the weather like everybody else, but it’s very multicultural, and, uh, makes life interesting that way. And grandchildren will always keep you where you are going to retire. Kallas: Um, do you feel like you’re part of the community? And do you have a support network? Tawfilis: I feel very much part of the community in many ways, but on―in some ways, no, because we’re—we’ve kind of discombobulated in this county where North County is kind of separated. But, I—my community is global, so it makes it a little bit interesting for me to try to be part of this community, despite the fact that I am, uh, running a multicultural center. Oceanside seems to be very focused on downtown and tourism, and, uh, I wanted to be here, even when I was downtown when we had our, um—it’s our studio and our center and our museum, the first mural museum in the world in Artists’ Alley. I—I thought we were really integrated into the community, but when—when I had to move out and come down here, it’s been a little different because we’re—we’re—we’re not considered you know neighborly, I think, is my—my feeling. We—we—we’re here. I love being part of being imbedded into the community, especially the indigenous community, because the Center was supposed to be focused on multiculturalism, with the focus on indigenous people. Kallas: Um, so prior to doing what you do now at the Mural Museum and the Art Miles, you had another whole career. Can you talk a little bit about that? Tawfilis: Yeah. I started out doing illustration work with the U.S. government, and when computers came out, they scared the heck out of me, being a non-technical person and being kind of a—I think, at that time, a very snobby artist (laughs), and then when people tell you what they want painted on, or drawn with specific directions, I had to question “Why, then, do you need me, if you’re not going to use my creative brain.” And the computer-generated art didn’t appeal to me because of that. Although now it’s grown into such a great variety of software programs, you can do almost anything, even with your own art. But as a young artist, I didn’t see it that way. So I worked for the military for most of my career in civil service, and then later on, combined my civil service career with the United Nations, and got to travel, a lot! Kallas: Um, so, some of the work—you want to talk about some of the work you did for the military, Civil Service department? Tawfilis: Yeah. After doing illustration, um, at the Submarine School in Connecticut, where we—where I was born, and my ex-husband was military, we traveled and that’s how I came—came to California. Um, and I worked really hard doing graphics here. Um, I rose in my career there to, to when the Bicentennial happened in, uh, 1975–76, the Navy and the country’s Bicentennial, and I got a little bit famous because I coordinated the whole military celebration down at the Broadway Pier , and things like that. And, then when, uh, uh, I went as far as I could, as far as a illustrator, was go—was my part of my career, and they started to do more and more graphics. I mean I worked at every military base in San Diego that you could think of. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then an opportunity came to become, uh, the first civilian and woman to be a, an international military training coordinator, and that’s how I got really involved with the international work, because the job was to be like a cultural, um, leader for the military people that came and their families, and setting up Friendship programs, and ex—not exchange programs, because these were, these were guys that were being trained on the equipment in the ships that we sold as part of the―what they call an international military exchange training program, I met and several others. So, I worked through all the bases doing that, and really loved, um, starting programs for the military and introducing them to American culture. And that was my real first experience, and getting international people to know the native cultures. And I did a lot of—I spent a lot of time down in San Diego, and Chicano Park, and I used to have the military, even the officers, lay down in the, the big, uh, like a pagoda―I’ve forgotten what you call it (chuckles), I think this is my senior moment―um, and look up to see the Inca and the Maya—Mayan civilization paintings, ‘cuz that’s where Chicano Park is sort of visualized and painted in amazing murals. And I did part of that on the bridge, the bridge stanchions that show how the Mexicans and the Spaniards came, and the farm workers came. And that was a lot of indigenous peoples from Mexico. And that got me interested. And then coming from Connecticut and New England where we had a lot of Native American tribes, a lot of international people ask about what happened to all the Indians in American culture? And a lot of—back then, a lot of international people only knew about cowboys and Indians, like most of us when we were growing up, you know, decades ago. And it also—it was very interesting to me because my minor in college was Native American Studies. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And that’s how I got introduced to it. But, you know, it was something that you think of academically, although it struck my heart because I was really angry at our educational system for not letting me know, among others, that where I grew up and lived most of my, you know, young adult life prior to college was Indian country. I mean, one of the thirteen colonies. And people don’t realize what kind of impact that had, has on people when you’re growing up. So, that affected my, my heart always. So, when I—in my career, I’ve always had that as a, I want to say, a big influence on what I’ve done to, to teach international people when I travel, both with the military and with the U.N. Kallas: Now, did the military send you to other countries as well? Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. I ended up—I started out doing, like I said, the international training stuff, but then I was on the base closure team, where my career went way up as far as getting higher promotions and better pay, and stuff like that. So I ended up, after doing base closures in most of the San Francisco Bay and Hawaii area, my territory was, I was one of twelve people that did the base closure studies. And then I had an opportunity—kind of as a fluke—to apply for an international job with the Army, and my supervisor and I both did it, um, as a—I don’t know, we just got a, a bug to say, “Oh, let’s see what happens if we apply to do what we’re doing here in the States, doing base closures.” And so, they offered her a job, and she turned it down. And they said “Oh well, the next person on the list is right in your office. Can we talk to her?” That was me! And so I ended up going to Germany. At the time I had been working for the Navy for over twenty years, in different positions like I said, from illustrator to management analyst, and working at foreign training and base closures. So then I ended up going to the Army in Germany, and that was, uh, right after, um, the Bicentennial had ended, and then I did a stint with—I took some time, and got, went on loan as a Vista volunteer, and went up to the Nespelem reservation in Colville, Kettle Falls area of Washington. I got really lucky cuz’ my hero was Chief Joseph (chuckles) and so I worked on that reservation in a parent aid program. But that’s another whole thing that maybe we could talk about later. Because going back to the military, I did this closing the bases in Europe and I became one of the heads of the base closure team there, and that’s how I got to travel to just about every European country there was. And, um, from there, I got recruited by the state department and through my federal military civilian job, went to work for the United Nations in, in Austria after the base closure job in Germany, that I went onward to, um, working on loan again. I went on loan from the Navy to the Army, from the Army to the International Atomic Energy Agency, and on loan again to the United Nations Environment Program in Nairobi. I mean there were jobs in between, but, and like I say that the stint I did at—I got to continue my career, even though I stopped working for the military for two years to work on, um, the Vista volunteer program. When Shriv—Sergeant Shriver started the Peace Corps, he also started the Vista volunteer program, which is now, I think, Americorps. So I was in that first round. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And then I went back to civil service and continued on, and onward to U.N. Kallas: And did they send you to, um, war torn countries, and where there was a lot of political unrest— Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. Kallas: —as a representative? Tawfilis: Yeah. When I went to, um—well, I could say my first stint overseas in Germany with the Army was when the wall came down. And I had just adopted two more children, and uh, I remember during that time the―when the wall came down, my kids were like, like—they were adopted from Mexico, and then—but they were Americans in a sense, so they were Mexican descent. And it was really interesting for them to learn German, so you see two little Mexicans speaking in German (chuckles). It was kind of cool. And, um, but the war torn part of it was―my job was because the war was over, the Cold War, and the wall came down, the government decided that’s why they wanted to close the bases because they didn’t need that anymore. We had so much military might invested in Germany because that was the actual front, that it made my job easy because the, the common sense of the economic support that they did for Europe, um, on the, well, it was called the front, made sense to start closing the bases. And so, I became a superstar, doing that, because I had people skills, so the generals that I worked for decided that it was great to have a woman civilian go give the commanding officers of the base the good news and the bad news that their base was going to be closed. And as a result of that, I was one of four women chosen to be, um, a member or take part in a study to decide whether civilians should become executive officers of military bases. So, they sent us to Army Management Staff College, and I was one of the four women that attended that. And so, the idea would be that I would become an executive officer of a military base so they could station military in the field. The problem with that is there’s no military that’s going to listen to a civilian as a boss. So, you can ask my son-in-law about that, ‘cuz he was Army. In fact, my daughter met him there in Germany. But, yeah, that was one. And then with the U.N., when I went to Africa, there’s all kinds of―I want to say―conflicts going on, including Somalia, Rwanda, during all that time, and so, yeah, I saw a lot. In fact, I was car-napped and my own personal safety was in danger there, not only from being exposed to so many people that were dying of AIDS, but because of the tribal—there’s like forty tribes in Nairobi alone and there were conflicts and a lot of cultural differences between the tribal people and a lot of, um, little―I want to say―mini wars going on and the political strife, and then of course, it was pretty bloody with Rwanda and then Somalia in that area. But I got to travel all over Africa, looking at—my job there was to consolidate the U.N. organizations in Nairobi and the base was called Gigiri, and, um, I got in trouble there, because I tried to support the local indigenous people with the financial area. So, if you want to talk about wars, and danger, and stuff like that, I think people think of shooting, you know, and bombs and stuff. But there’s other kind of wars, like economic ones. And I came up with this idea that civil service employees in international organizations should be cay—should be paid equally. But they have this system in the U.N. where local nationals are―have to go through a wage classification survey and they get the prevailing wage rate, whatever that country is. So, in other words, my secretary in Austria would get $3,000 a month, but my secretary in Nairobi would get $300 dollars a month. Kallas: Oh... Tawfilis: Yeah. And I just didn’t think that made sense, working with the U.N. So, it was kind of a battle there, and I think that was the biggest war for me, is trying to help the local nationals. And I did some―I want to say―out of the ordinary things, like promoting them when other people went out on mission they would hire people to come in and pay them exorbitant amounts of money, including me, because I, I was on a stipend on a daily basis, in addition to my very high salary. But the work was done by the local people. I think that happens everywhere, that the real worker bees don’t get recognized for the, all the work that they do, and they carry on the mission of whatever that country’s, you know, objectives are. And so, I think that’s one of the reasons I got car-napped, because I had a big mouth and I actually wrote a book about how to flatten the United Nations. So, they sent me back. I was on loan from the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna, Austria to Africa, and because I tried to help the local people, I think I wasn’t going to go much further, after ten years, you know, working for the U.N. So, that was my personal battle when you talk about wars, and dangerous things. I mean, when you get to the point where they don’t want you to talk―and it wasn’t the U.N. that did it―it was a person that probably wanted the job that I had―that arranged for this kidnapping or car-napping that I survived. So… Kallas: So, you also, um, had spent time in Bosnia during that— Tawfilis: Yeah, at the end of my career— Kallas: —that was after all the— Tawfilis: with—I was getting ready to retire and, uh, because I was on loan as a very high-ranked civilian, the only place they could put me would be the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. and I didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. I’d been at the headquarters many times with my job with the Army. I did a lot of stuff for the Army, like I said. And I really didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. So, they gave me a choice of going to Bosnia and working with the widows at Srebrenica, at the end of the conflict in the Balkans between the―where Yugoslavia had broken up. And I went on an interview sponsored by the Clinton Foundation to be the Director of the Bosnian Women’s Initiative or what they—most people know as the Widows of Srebrenica, where at some point they gathered the Bosnian women together―and I should say the Bosnian families together―in their village called Srebrenica which was a safe haven. And unfortunately it wasn’t a very well protected safe haven, and on July tenth and eleventh in 197―uh, 1995, the Serbs came in and gave the people ten minutes to come outside, and they put the women on one side of the street, women and children under fourteen and old people, real old people, and then they put the men and boys on the other side and then they took all the women, put them on buses and sent them to a village in the mountains, in Tuzla. And the men disappeared. They found some mass graves. They found some bodies in a forest where they were―tried to run away, I guess, some of the men. And, but they never found the whole―I would say, whole group of the over six to seven thousand. They, they suspect―there’s a lot of theories, and a lot of books written about it. But my job was to work with the women and help them do economic development and to heal and to also help identify bodies and get all their data because they had no pictures of their families. They had, you know, all this stuff that they—they left with nothing. And then to try to help reconciliation between the three entities, and I ended up, you know, working my, my heart and my head off, because working with people who have lost everything and witnessed the destruction of their country and their families getting killed and murdered and their men disappearing, and these were mostly farm women that didn’t even know how to write their name. So, I think I worked harder in my life those three or four years that I was there doing everything from gathering information to help put the war crimes together because these people were still on the loose. And then throughout the years, the military would find them and capture the war crime perpetrators and bring them to the Hague and they were imprisoned, and some of them—I won’t name names—passed away in prison before they could be tried. But it was terrible trying to identify remains with the women. Maybe it would be just shreds of a shirt but they recognized their husbands. And then having all that emotional—I think I have a whole book of stories I could write about their suffering. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: But because of that, I was encouraged to go work in the orphanage and there three hundred fifty orphans. I have a TED talk online, TED-X from Orange Coast College. And, it was―it’s called “Painting Outside the Lines.” I also have one from UCSD “Stem to Steam” because I put the art part in there. But back to the Bosnian situation and I guess as the point of my career that changed my life that we were going to talk about, because when I saw what the children had gone through and I―they―they told me—you were getting— I was getting very depressed, and they said “you need to go work in this orphanage.” So, the three hundred fifty orphans from all three entities, but they had not found or located all families. So, some of the kids had no survivors. I understand that most of them they were able to place them years later. But while I was there, my―my, uh, free time, if you want to call it free time, was to go and work with these kids to do art. And then after about three months of just sketching and coloring and stuff, they asked if they could make a very big painting and I interpreted that as a mural. And so if you―you’ll hear on the TED talk, how we found bed sheets in a closet that were full of sort of darned holes and the―they explained to me that the young ladies in Europe learn how to sew, which we did away with here in the United States. But there they sew everything. So, when they pulled out the sheets, and they had all these little stitches, and some still had holes, I, when I asked them what the holes were about, they said “Well, this used to be a hospital, and it was bombed. So these were from the shells and the shrapnel that, that, you know, made holes in the walls and the bedding and the whole bit of the ugly hospital beds over there.” So, what I did was the Army had left a 10-gallon pan―pail of white flat, white wall paint and I, I had them sew two sheets together and I put masking tape on the back where I thought there were the least amount of holes and then I just painted. I put a whole bunch of newspaper, and in the morning it turned into a very stiff canvas! So, we had a canvas and the kids got very excited. Every time I think about their faces when they saw that, and then it was like “Oh, we’ve got to paint that whole thing?” You know… Kallas: So, that’s when your two careers intersected, so you kind of went back to— Tawfilis: Right. Kallas: roots, and— Tawfilis: And I got to do art, right? So, but what changed my life were the, the children and the oldest one was about eighteen and then they had a little eighteen or nineteen-month-old baby in there, and they divided the kids up into groups of five. And they took two older, mostly teens, and then three younger kids, so they could take care of each other, ‘cuz they only had five people running this whole orphanage. There was psychologist, and then the other four were caregivers, and they cooked for them, and made sure that they were, you know, trying to keep them busy. There were—I don’t even think they had formal education for them, because there was nothing. And they were just being protected and fed, and trying—and I think doing the art was a real important thing in their lives. So, how my life changed was, the kids started—I said “you have to decide what you want to paint.” So, what they—I had them do, is I said “Draw something that you want on this canvas.” So, they all did it, and I still have some of the sketches. I should have brought some. But they, they, they had to come up with an idea that would go on the canvas. So, we looked at all the drawings and they started forming this dialogue and they started talking to each other. And you have to understand these kids were very depressed themselves, and they had these real— Kallas: Traumatized. Tawfilis: Yeah. They were all traumatized and they were kind of afraid of each other when they were—they knew that one was a Serb, and one was a Croat, and one was Bosnian. And they didn’t―they matched them up by age, not so much by what sect of religion they belonged to. So, and in children weren’t so attuned, maybe the older ones were a little bit more conscious of their religious differences, whatever. But in the discussions that they were doing, they started talking about the trauma that they had gone through. And some of the kids knew each other from the different villages that they had come from. And I found myself going outside, crying myself, because they started talking about what they saw, what they felt. And even now, when I think about it, it’s still—it burns a hole in your heart, but it —I wondered how this was going to work. And I’d go back in, and then they decided on a theme. And what was happening is they were going through a catharsis themselves, and they ended up with coming up with the theme “Yesterday and Tomorrow.” And the Yesterday section of this one―I guess we would call it a triptych in our art language, Yesterday, they did sketches of houses that had no roofs, ‘cuz they’d blown up. Airplanes dropping bombs, and then because the women were wearing kerchiefs because they were Bosnian Muslim, they had their heads covered. There, a lot of the little drawings had little pictures of women lined up, going, and they remembered having to come out of the houses in Srebrenica and line up on the other side of the street. So you saw ―you would see sketches of that, and dragons, and just ugly things that they, fires, things burning. And then the middle section where they had put the groups of five together, they drew their little new families, which was really cute. Kallas: That’s awesome. TAWFILIS: And then on the third panel was, were flowers and clowns and balloons and stuff like that. So they called it “Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow.” So after five days of going through that, I can say that was a life changer for me, and, and I was telling my husband about it, and we, we made that first mural, and he was in the process of constructing a new building, me, a gallery, and we called it Avenida de Los Artistas. So, we had a Spanish name in a German country, speaking country in Austria. We started , he started doing murals, or I started it on the wall, one of the walls of the museum that was being built, at the gallery. So, when I’d go back home, we were making murals, and after about a hundred of them we said “we should make this a project.” Because the latch kids would be coming, then the schools started sending kids over. So we turned it into a project, and actually Foulad, my husband, was the man who came up with the idea of calling it “Art Mile.” We didn’t know it was going to turn into twelve miles! But that’s how it started. And then at one point I met a professor from Wesleyan University, and I did some murals. The very first mural we did outside of Bosnia was in Austria. And then on one of my trips back to Connecticut, I met this professor from Wesleyan, and we did one at the university there. And he said “You need to tell the U.N. about your project.” And, so, there are lots of things going on, wars, conflicts all over. And so the United Nations had set up a program called the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And it was founded by Ambassador Chaudry of the U.N. who was at the time Under Secretary General for small developing nations and island nations. And he had written the resolution to start this International Decade from 2001 to the end of 2010. And so my husband and I had this crazy idea of going to New York and getting him to support it as a U.N. project. And at the same time, the son, the grandson of Jacques Cousteau heard about us, and said “I’d love to see what you’re doing. Maybe you should do murals about the sea.” So he flew from London and met us at the famous hotel in New York, and I was, while I was there to meet Ambassador Chaudry and said he would love to see us do murals about the oceans and the sea and the water. And at that time he was at grad school, I believe. And so our very first celebrity fan was Phillipe Cousteau, the son of Phillipe Cousteau, who passed away in a plane crash. He was one of the two sons of Jacques Cousteau. So we went on to the U.N. and just unrolled five canvases, one of them was done in Nairobi, and it went all the way down the hallway, cuz they were five feet by twelve feet, so we had almost fifty feet of canvas going down the hallway and Ambassador Chaudry’s office took up a whole floor of People in the U.N. building and they all came and looked at it and they all fell in love with the project. And that’s when we got his support and endorsement, and we started doing murals. And now we’ve got over twelve miles of murals from all over the world, which many of them are right here in this building. And our headquarters is in North County and Oceanside. Kallas: And that is called? Tawfilis: The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center. We had it set up as the first mural museum in the world, and for people who don’t know the word “Muramid” comes from murals that were being constructed into a pyramid which we had set up a project. My husband came up with the design and he did the photography of over a thousand murals and did them in miniature because we were going to create the Muramid Pyramid at the great Pyramids in Giza. And at the time, we had also, I had retired. We had moved to Egypt. We have a home there. And my husband spent a lot of time and a lot of money. What we called Back Cheese, with the paying under the table to the Minister of Education, Minister of Culture, to do a fourth pyramid to be constructed with piping, I don’t know if they call it, it wasn’t the PPV―PVC piping, it was metal. And he designed that. And then a company here in Oceanside―not Oceanside,―in Irvine, “Supercolor Photo,” were kind enough to make the model and take my husband’s design of the miniature murals and make a cover. And we were able to have a ten-foot model that we were going, we used in several places. In fact, we have ten models all over the world right now, including Japan. And we participated in international conferences and things like that. And the whole idea was to have, to have (someone enters the room, off camera) I thought I locked the door, sorry. Anyway, the whole idea was at the end of 2010 we would have this celebration to commemorate the closing of the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And then, what happened was, because we had so many conflicts we ended up with a second decade, which ended at the end of 2021. Kallas: Now all of your—you have twelve themes for your Art Miles. Tawfilis: Mm-hmm. Kallas: Can you share a little bit about that, and what, what people gained from doing these murals? Tawfilis: Sure. The first thing that we did was Peace, Unity, and Healing. And then we ended up with the Women, because the women’s influence on art and healing. That’s where the healing part came in. And you know when you think about peace, unity, and healing, then you talk about women and their role in it. And then we started environment, because everybody started complaining, and worrying about climate change. And as you know, that has a subject that has increased so many, so much all over the world. And it’s happening. We’re all experiencing that. And then we started doing murals in response to every human and natural disaster. That’s even when 9/11 happened in 2001, it was a big deal and we did, like, many murals and actually exhibited some of them on, at Ground Zero. We were there, doing the mural, at Georgetown University on September 11. And we got sequestered into the hotel that we were staying at, because we were doing a Children’s Environmental Health Network thing. But anyway, back to the themes, so that’s how the environment started. We, the third one was Children’s Environmental Health Network where they actually did a film about us there. And while we were doing that, we ended up being, watching the Twin Towers come down. And then from there we started Children’s and then Fairytale and then Sports and Music, and so now we have Hero and we had—then we started the Japanese government, or I should say our Japanese team started doing an exchange program. They called it, they call it the International Intercultural Mural Exchange where they do half of a mural in Japan and the other half in another country, with another school. So, there’s four hundred forty murals for each themed. They’re all, not all five by twelve, some of them are half sized. But our goal was to at least get to twelve miles, and then in 2008 we attempted to break the Guinness Book of World Records. But three weeks before that, we found out that the United Arab Emirates had already done that with the longest mural in the world. And we couldn’t surpass it, because they, they would, they did like ten-mile, not ten miles, ten murals more than us. But, even the, the grand master, whatever they call them, that comes to do the, to officiate measurements stuff, said ours weren’t connected , and they want a continuous theme. So, what the, what happened with the United Arab Emirates, they did, they did, I think at that time, like four miles, about women, and it was done for International Women’s Day and they featured the, all the children. And all the schools did murals about the sheikah, or the queen, I guess. And then they had to burn it, because it was done on paper, and Islam doesn’t allow images. So, but they did break the record. Plus, it cost ten thousand dollars to bring the guy over, and we didn’t have that kind of money. We still don’t have that kind of money, because we do it all from our hearts, very few donations. Kallas: And can you talk a little bit of how the initial concept of murals has evolved over the years, compared to where you started in Bosnia, and to where you are right now with the murals. Tawfilis: Yeah. I think the biggest change is education. We found that education has come to the forefront because whenever, whatever thing you’re working on, it teaches you something, you know, whether it’s fairy tales that are originally thought of by children and from their imaginations or sports. There are―you learn what the sport’s all about. Music, the same thing. We’ve even had music murals created while people are looking at a mural and they write music about it. And then, or vice versa. Or when it’s in the indigenous mile. At one time we presented a—because I was in Connecticut at the time, we had someone present the idea of doing—we discovered there were five hundred fifty recognized tribes. And so they did a resolution at the National Congress of American Indians, NCAI, that each tribe would contribute a mural. But we got so busy, and then my husband passed away. We have never followed up on that. I don’t know how long those resolutions last. But I would love to revive it. But since that time, I’ve also discovered there’s a whole bunch of non-recognized tribes. And I think that has appealed to me more, because I feel like, how could you not recognize a tribe? I don’t care. I know that there, their requirements have DNA and numbers of members and whether they have a reservation or whatever. But, it’s not accounting, some of the tribes don’t get credit for just being there, and being there first. And they were decimated by whatever colonial tribe or―how would I say―shouldn’t be―that’s the wrong word―colonial influence that came in and took over those lands, even in our own wars, in the Civil War. Even before that, they, you know, the genocide of Native Americans is something that most Americans don’t even know about. They don’t even know about there’s so many tribes in every country that they went through the same thing. You know, the genocide of every African nation. There’s thirty-three countries in Africa! And most Americans don’t know that. There―you could go there, and you could say “The Dutch took over this country. The Italians did this country. The Brits did this.” You know. And they left their influence, but they also started slavery, and brought it here. And then―and I think that’s why there is a bond between a lot of Native Americans. When you―one thing I’ve even discovered more of later in my life is how Native Americans helped so many slaves, you know, following the Civil War. Protected them, and hid them, and intermarried, and that’s why there’s a lot of controversy among white people about―they had this concept the Indians were “red.” First of all, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a red person, or a yellow Chinese person, or maybe caramel, like me. (both she and Linda chuckle) And when you think of black, kids in school when you say “These are Africans.” They use black crayons or black paint. There are some very black people, I think. Some countries have all shades. India has black India people from East India. And Senegal people mostly are darker than most, you know. But there’s also a whole shades, hues of people. But like Aki, our drummer, says “Inside we all have red blood. We all have bones.” You know, and when we all die, you can’t tell, maybe by the―anthropologists will tell you about the skulls and the framework and stuff like that. But color? No. Religion, you know, that’s another thing. So, the other—to get back to your question. The other evolution has been healing. I think the focus now is more on healing, because we have so much―what’s the word―conflicts around the world. And then personal violence going on with school shootings and the massive massacres with massive killings all over and accidents and natural disasters, with hurricanes and floods. Right here in California, the fires, right here! They came right up to the back door here, you know. And if you drive up through the mountains going to, to go buy a pie, you’re going to find out. You drive through all the reservation areas and you see where the fires from the past―you see those still the black, some of the trees, and there’s a big contrast with the silhouettes of those trees and then the―now the overgrown greenery. It’s so beautiful, and you know, things like that. So, healing has made a big difference, because when people―and what I’m really, I think, what I’d like to share in this interview with you―is that healing isn’t just the murals that we send to the people who have been become victims and their families of those who were killed or injured in these horrible violent events or disasters. It’s us, ourselves. When each school shooting happens, how many parents and people with a heart feel that pain, of, of—I can’t—every time I hear of a school shooting, I think of those poor little kids, and I grieve for them and for their families and for the friends and the neighbors that were there. And my first exposure to that was actually the, the widows watching those children, and then 9/11 when the Red Cross had murals being done all over. We have some amazing murals that came from all over the country and the world, displaying their feelings. And one of them, one of the ones that stands out in my mind, is Hope, Alaska did one. And it, the whole mural is the word “Hope” but inside the word “Hope” they drew people, and a lot of native and indigenous people are in that. And then, when Sandy Hook happened from my, where I’m from, Connecticut, I went there, and to see those little children, you know. How can anybody go in and kill all those little tiny kindergarten kids, and the teachers? And then what people don’t know there’s, in America, there’s a place called Beslan, near Russia, where the radicals, and the— Kallas: Government was involved in― Tawfilis: Yeah, over two hundred people, two hundred kids and teachers killed. And then again, recently, you know, I mean we could go on and on. And every time we did a mural, it was like once or twice a year, and now, I mean, I think in July we had three shootings , and, you know, things we had to respond to. And actually, I’m behind! We haven’t been able to do, Massa from the, Mahsa Imani―Amini, from the―from Iran, because we’re so busy. We just finished Ukraine, you know. There’s just, St. Louis. All this stuff keeps happening. So, healing! Kallas: So, part of your process in dealing with this tragedy is there’s a healing element for you to respond to those through a mural. And you send those murals to those places, correct? Tawfilis: Yeah. And we’ve been lucky. Sometimes we hear back, and sometimes we don’t. Because you can’t expect everybody, every city and town, to say “Oh, gosh, all these people.” You know, people send food and clothing. And a lot of people do art and murals and flowers and, and stuff like that. So, I know, you know, part of giving, what people don’t understand is we give and we do murals from our heart. We don’t expect a lot in return. What I expect is when people paint a mural to send that they are sharing that same emotion that I feel that they want people to know that we’re thinking of them, and that we’re sending our prayers and good wishes. I know people think that a lot of non-governmental organizations do things for money. Well, we’re, we’re a great example of “No” (laughs), because― Kallas: Non-profit. Tawfilis: Yeah, we are a true non-profit. And my husband and I and a lot of people have contributed. We don’t have an overhead staff that we, we pay for. We can’t. We just don’t, you know. Thank goodness we have good―there’s so many―I focus on the good people and the good things that come. If I started thinking about what I have or what I don’t, you know, what I don’t have, with other organizations that get grants, and they have sponsors and philanthropists look at them, I would never be able to do what I do. At this age, I’m just now starting―we have a Foundation that we’re working on, and my goal is to finally, if I realize it, if I want to have a legacy in the name, in the memory of my husband who gave up his career, and out of my true care and I say, I want to say concern for people who are suffering, and indigenous people, I think that’s why I want it here. That’s what brought my here. I think the Creator, whoever your Creator is, my Creator is a number of spiritual things, that I saw this place that we’re sitting in right now before we opened the Muramid and Artists Alley. And my husband said “It’s too small. It looks like a house!” And it was full of crazy stuff that had been here before. So, it was neglected and smelly. It didn’t have high ceilings when we peeked in the windows, and he, he just kind of passed it on. But, something called out to me in this place. And I remember driving around one day after I knew I had to leave Artists Alley, because he passed away. I hadn’t, didn’t have the infrastructure and the help that I do now with Aki and his drumming and neighbors and friends and people that have helped put this thing together. I remember driving around and it still had a For Rent style on here―sign―and I parked the car and I called the guy and the property manager. And it was still in the same shape that it had been, I guess, six years before. So, this place had been empty for a while. I think maybe something might have happened in between, but I doubt it, because judging from when we did get inside, and there was a lot of feces, dead animals, all kinds of stuff. But I can feel this place. When we took down the ceiling, because it was that―what do they call it―insulation hanging down, and I looked at the wood, and I realized “Wow, this place was here a long time ago.” I didn’t know the history of the place, but I’ve been told it was the original general store for the Mission. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then when I found out about the Mission and, you know, being a Catholic, in a former life, I thought “Wow, this is pretty cool!” Then I remember reading, like other things in Connecticut, that there were people here before the Mission came, and I got really passionate about “I’m going to put it right there.” And I want to dedicate the place to the Luiseño, because I found out that they are the people that this belongs to. And everybody that comes in the door, every single person, I can’t think of one that hasn’t come in the door for the first time and goes “Wow! This place, it has such great karma. It feels warm and friendly, and it’s inviting and it’s good to be in here and it’s so creative.” And I went (claps her hands together) “Yes! That’s what we’re all about.” And so, I think we are an important piece of the history of this place because I feel like an archive in here, of some sort. And the Mural Project has found its home, and I think that’s an important part of being the history up here in the North County, to have a project that’s global in scope that has been participated in by over a half a million people from over a hundred countries. To land in a place that is based on what everybody should know about indigenous communities. My hope is that―and I started out with my husband and I both said, you know, before we wanted to feature different cultures, because we felt that Americans weren’t quite educated enough to understand the diversity and the richness of cultures from other people, and other countries, including this country, you know. There’s so many―and I don’t want to use the term “white”―but there’s a lot of American, white people who don’t understand that they came here from other countries as well. And in their own country, if they look back in their roots, they’ll find out that they come in different shades as well. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And that the stolen land―you know, recently I watched a documentary about Alabama where the last slave ship came in and it was against the law to even bring slaves after 1860 or something like that. But it was one ship’s captain who said “I can show you how to do it, and I’m going to prove it.” And he did it out of rebellion and brought a hundred and twenty slaves from Africa, made them get off the ship, near Mobile, Alabama, and in the water, the swamp, they got on to the land. I understand they stayed there for a few weeks and then they divided them into three different plantations. But they burned that ship in that. They said they wanted to get rid of the evidence. Well, that was a genocide in and off itself, of history. And now after four hundred years or whatever, they’re finding all these remnants. You can go anywhere, even here. When we started doing the back, we found a cross in the yard that, that must have been buried in the ground from whatever was here before. And I always wondered what happened and what’s going on with all this gentrification and the new building over there. It hurts my heart. And I talked to a Luiseño member who is one of our drummers, a woman, she said “every time she goes by” and she’s a school bus driver, she said “it hurts my heart.” Because she knows there’s another thing covering it up and erasing part of the history of this place. And I’m really sorry that, you know, recently the newspaper said “the wave just got approved with the valley over there, and the rest of the valley. And I live in a place that I look at that, and I, I could cry just thinking about it. Right across the street from Pablo Tac Elementary School. They’re going to build a wave park like we need one so close to the ocean? I mean, come on. Commercialization is just really destroying the natural history of many places including right here where we live. So, I’m hoping that the owner of the properties here will never let this place become that wave even though I can see a beautiful little old town here. You know, I like to see more cultural things happen here. And I’d love to see the cultural district expand from downtown to where the real history is here. I mean, uh, it’s to me almost sinful that we don’t put more emphasis on what the history of this area, of Oceanside, is all about. It’s all on the front, at the waterfront. It’s all commercial. They even destroyed the waterfront in my eyes, by putting all that, the hotels and stuff. Kallas: Well, in trying to put it all together here, in breadth and in depth is community building. Tawfilis: Correct. Kallas: Through the murals, through the other work you’ve done. It seems to be the main theme of your life, and now you have the Center. And doesn’t it also have something to do with UNESCO? Tawfilis: Yes! We recently became the UNESCO Center for Peace for all of California and Baja. And with that I think will help enhance my opportunity and all the people that work with us to bring more cultural education and healing to this area, and to educate people about what real peace begins with me, and our neighbors and our families. And then, you know, I know this all sounds very philosophical but it’s true, you know. And, um, I think we have a pretty good mayor who supports local people more than others that I’ve seen. Maybe it’s because I see her out there in the community more than I’ve seen other mayors do. And I know that she is of Mexican descent, but I also believe that Mexicans have a lot of indigenous people here as well. Kallas: Right. Tawfilis: And when I talk about Mexicans, I don’t mean that they are the invaders of the people that took over. They too have been, you know, victims of genocide. All this belonging to part of that. But the first people here from all the history that I have been able to do my own research on, were the Luiseños. And so, my passion and dedication is going to be based on that. I am going to be looking at other cultures and introducing the people of the world to our local community through this center. But this is―This year, the Valley Arts Festival will feature my dedication to that. As I have this painting behind me. It’s kind of weird that we have this Mexican lady, native, behind me, and then my dancer, and then I am going to do a dedicated mural to the Spirit of the Valley, and to the tribal captain and a woman who happens to be his sister who I think is, in my eyes, the official historian of just about everything that could ever happen to the Luiseños here. And I feel very fortunate, um, coming from where I do, and what I did in Connecticut with the Mashantucket Pequots to see them grow and have the best museum in my eyes, in the whole world, indigenous or otherwise because it’s interactive. To be with people that are still alive that I can talk to and interact with that live right here in this community. So… Kallas: So, going forward, what, um, what other projects are on the horizon for you. Tawfilis: Well― Kallas: Besides what you just talked about, are there other avenues that you’re going to pursue? Tawfilis: Oh, thank you for asking. Because one way of documenting history is books. So, I’m writing, actually there’ll be four books that I hope will be coming from me. But interacting with other people, we’re doing, taking the murals now, what am I going to do with twelve miles of murals? My goal is to convince the Smithsonian that they need to take these, because to me it’s a visual documentation of two decades or more of history by the people and for the people. This is their words, not some author who wrote a book about the history of something. It’s from all over the world, and it addresses social issues everywhere. So, what I’m hoping to do is we have a Foundation that we’re going to be―we are part of, called the Endangered Planet Foundation, and our project will, will be embracing that and taking the mural images and trying to create practical products from the mural images and raising money through the sales of textiles and books and things like that, tangible things that can go into a fund that will keep this project going, and long after I’m gone. Hopefully until then I can help form a solid board and we can end up hiring a staff which we’ve never had, to carry on this project, because I think it’s something that can continue. Mural art has been growing all over the world. The cave men have come a long way from their images to creating murals not just on walls but on canvas and ours is mobile. I wanted to have a voice for people that could be shared, not stuck on a wall that you’re never going to― I’m maybe some people will never get to Machu Pichu or to the Egyptian temples and pyramids or caves where we have here in the United States with etchings and things on them. So, this way we can bring people closer together. So that’s the future, is I want to leave a legacy and because I know what works. What other non-profit organization can survive for almost twenty-five years with no money? I’ll tell you why. Because people believe in it, and we believe in it with all our hearts and souls. And, as nearing my seventy-seventh birthday, I bypassed seventy-five because of Covid. I think we have proof in the pudding, so, yeah, that’s the plan, is to continue. Kallas: And speaking from personal experience, I’ve actually experienced the healing process and that sense of community where we’re all working on the same thing at the same time. There’s just so much unity in that and it’s very, you could really internalize that. Tawfilis: Well you know the big―bottom line is mural art gives you a chance to express yourself even with a group, because as you know doing quilt, we do that kind of style with murals as well, in different forms or whatever. You get to express yourself individually but you do it with a group and it brings you all closer together, and in doing so you talk to each other, and the bottom line is you find out how much more we have in common than we have in differences. Which sounds like a cliché, but boy it’s true. Kallas: It’s very true. Tawfilis: We actually do it. And we make ourselves, I mean, better people because we get to know and appreciate other people’s opinions, even if we don’t agree with them. We hear what they’re thinking and feeling, and we learn a lot from each other. And I think that’s how peace is going to happen, when we begin to open our minds and our hearts to understanding that we’re different but we all have the same basic common needs. We all want to eat. We all want to be able to have a home over our heads and feel safe. And the richness of having other cultures influencing your life―it’s like if you’re only going to eat American hot dogs and hamburgers, what a boring life that would be, right? (Linda laughs) I always think of it simplistically like that because you end up going “Gee, I like Thai food. I like Chinese food. I like Italian food. Whatever.” Well, that comes from people, you know. And so, the blend and the magic of seeing the dancing from, and the music, the different forms of music, and you can be native American and play rock-n-roll music. I happen to know somebody who can do that and do it well. Or a Filipino that can sing beautiful, musical songs. Or the homeless people with the choir that was started right here from North County. I mean I think that’s a great, you know, cultural contribution to history. So. Kallas: Well, Joanne, thank you so much. It’s been an honor and a privilege to do this interview with you. And I want to repeat something I recently told a mutual friend about you, that I truly think you are a work of art. Tawfilis: Oh, my goodness. Kallas: And I just thank you so much. Tawfilis: Well, thank you. And I also want to say that I did get a PhD at the age of 71. So, my message to all those who think that you never learned and you can’t earn a degree as you get older, you’re wrong. You can get it, and mine was honorary, and I’m really proud of it now because I used to think―I’m very humble about it because I do understand how much hard work goes in to doing a dissertation. I almost got there. I could have done that, but I traveled so much I couldn’t finish. But understanding that when you do a life’s work dedicated to something, I think it’s deserved. I’m saying that today for the first time, that looking back on my career, I did earn it. Kallas: Yes, you did. Tawfilis: And I’m very happy that my, if my dad were alive and I received a big award when I retired. I got the highest award you could get as a civilian and they gave me miniature medal. It’s from the military. As well as a big one. And when I went to Arlington I put that miniature beneath my dad’s cross at Arlington National Cemetery. And I, when I got my PhD, my first trip to Washington, D.C., afterwards I went directly there, and I told my dad “Guess what, dad? You wanted me to get an education, and I got a Ph.D.” Kallas: Wow, what a great note to close on. Thank you again. I really appreciate this. Tawfilis: Thank you. (Looking off camera to someone else) Did I put you to sleep? Unknown male voice: No, that’s a wrap. GLOSSARY: Aki (pg.11,12) Ambassador Chaudry (pg.8) Americorps (pg.4) Arlington National Cemetery (pg.16) Army Management Staff College (pg.4) Artist’s Alley (pg.2) Art Miles (pg.2,8) Back Cheese (pg.9) Base closure team (pg.3) Besan (near Russia) (pg.11) Bosnian Women’s Initiative (pg.5) Broadway Pier (pg.2) Chicano Park (pg.3) Chief Joseph (pg.3) Children’s Environmental Health Network (pg.9) Colville (pg.3) Endangered Planet Foundation (pg.15) Foulad (pg.8) Friendship Program (pg.2) Gigiri (pg.5) International Atomic Energy Agency (pg.4,5) International Decade for the Culture of Peace (pg.8,9) International Intercultural Mural Exchange (pg.10) Kettle Falls (pg.3) Luiseño (pg.13,14) Mahsa Amini (pg.12) Mashantucket Pequots (pg.14) Mural Museum (pg.2) Muramid Arts and Cultural Center (pg.9) Muramid Pyramid (pg.9) National Congress of American Indians (pg.10) Nespelem (pg.3) Orange Coast College (pg.6) Pablo Tac Elementary School (pg.14) “Painting Outside the Lines” (pg.6) Peace, Unity, Healing (pg.9) Sergeant Shriver (pg.4) Srebrenica (pg.5) “Stem to Steam” (pg.6) Submarine School (pg.2) Supercolor Photo (pg.9) Tuzla (pg.6) UNESCO Center for Peace (pg.14) United Nation Environment Program, Nairobi (pg.4) Vista Volunteer Program (pg.4) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_access.xml TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tawfilis, Joanne. Interview October 31, 2022. Description An account of the resource Joanne Tawfilis is the executive director of the Art Miles Mural Project, which has had the participation of over 500,000 people from 125 countries to paint murals. Tawfilis and her late husband Fouad started the Art Miles Mural Project after Tawfilis worked with orphans in Bosnia, where they created a murals using the only materials available -- a 10 gallon can of white wall pain and bedsheets riddled with bullet holes. The Art Miles Mural Project is currently homed at the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center in Oceanside, California, where there are electronic displays of over 5,000 murals, art classes, music, and spoken word performances. Tawfilis has had a storied career and has worked with the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Women of Srebrenica Project, and UNESCO. In her interview, Tawfillis discusses her career working as a civilian employee of the military, as well as her work with the United Nations, IAEA, and the Women of Srebrenica Project. Tawfilis also discusses the creation of the Art Miles Mural Project, the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, and her thoughts on art as a vehicle for healing, empathy, and peace. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-052 Subject The topic of the resource Art Miles Project Bosnian Women's Initiative International Atomic Energy Agency Military base closures Mural painting and decoration Muramid Art and Cultural Center (Oceanside, Calif.) Orphanages--Bosnia and Herzegovina Srebrenica Massacre, Srebrenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1995 Unesco United States. Army United States. Navy Women artists Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-31 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joanne Tawfilis Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Linda Kallas Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceanside (Calif.) Srebrenica (Bosnia and Herzegovina) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joanne Tawfilis License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Activists and activism Art and artists Community history North County Oral History Initiative Politics and governance Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/650df26fcebb5e908a3a6386a0e71713.pdf 91b6788af9d667a1f9d0118bd55f634c PDF Text Text TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 Transcript Linda Kallas: Today is October 31, 2022. I am Linda Kallas, and I am interviewing Joanne Tawfilis as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Thank you for joining me today, Joanne. Joanne Tawfilis: Thank you, Linda. Glad to be here. Kallas: It’s my pleasure. I’m going to give you some questions, and you’re going to answer them and to the best of your ability and we’ll just keep moving through the questions. Okay? Tawfilis: Okay, sounds good. Kallas: First of all, when and where were you born? Tawfilis: I was born in New London, Connecticut, and, um, a long time ago, [laughs] almost seventy-seven years. Kallas: And was your family an active part of any cultural communities where you grew up? Tawfilis: Actually, my family was one of the first Filipino American families in the town that I was born in. Um, we had a huge family, and then another family came and there was sort of a competition between the two families on, I think, who could have the most kids. Kallas: Oh! [chuckles] Tawfilis: And I think my dad won! [both Joanne and Linda laugh] Kallas: Um, so you didn’t grow up in North County. You moved here how many years ago? Tawfilis: Oh, it was—I moved here probably, um, in 1971, was when I first came to California. But then with my career I traveled all over the world, so I was back and forth on a regular basis. Uh, I had children and grandchildren here, and when I retired in the year 2000, I decided to settle here in paradise. [nods] Kallas: Nice. And how do you like living and working here since then? Tawfilis: Oh, I love San Diego County. Out of all the places I’ve ever been, I think that what I— I love the weather like everybody else, but it’s very multicultural, and, uh, makes life interesting that way. And grandchildren will always keep you where you are going to retire. Kallas: Um, do you feel like you’re part of the community? And do you have a support network? Tawfilis: I feel very much part of the community in many ways, but on―in some ways, no, because we’re—we’ve kind of discombobulated in this county where North County is kind of separated. But, I—my community is global, so it makes it a little bit interesting for me to try to be part of this community, despite the fact that I am, uh, running a multicultural center. Oceanside seems to be very focused on downtown and tourism, and, uh, I wanted to be here, even when I was downtown when we had our, um—it’s our studio and our center and our 1 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 museum, the first mural museum in the world in Artists’ Alley. I—I thought we were really integrated into the community, but when—when I had to move out and come down here, it’s been a little different because we’re—we’re—we’re not considered you know neighborly, I think, is my—my feeling. We—we—we’re here. I love being part of being imbedded into the community, especially the indigenous community, because the Center was supposed to be focused on multiculturalism, with the focus on indigenous people. Kallas: Um, so prior to doing what you do now at the Mural Museum and the Art Miles, you had another whole career. Can you talk a little bit about that? Tawfilis: Yeah. I started out doing illustration work with the U.S. government, and when computers came out, they scared the heck out of me, being a non-technical person and being kind of a—I think, at that time, a very snobby artist [laughs], and then when people tell you what they want painted on, or drawn with specific directions, I had to question “Why, then, do you need me, if you’re not going to use my creative brain.” And the computer-generated art didn’t appeal to me because of that. Although now it’s grown into such a great variety of software programs, you can do almost anything, even with your own art. But as a young artist, I didn’t see it that way. So I worked for the military for most of my career in civil service, and then later on, combined my civil service career with the United Nations, and got to travel, a lot! Kallas: Um, so, some of the work—you want to talk about some of the work you did for the military, Civil Service department? Tawfilis: Yeah. After doing illustration, um, at the Submarine School in Connecticut, where we—where I was born, and my ex-husband was military, we traveled and that’s how I came— came to California. Um, and I worked really hard doing graphics here. Um, I rose in my career there to, to when the Bicentennial happened in, uh, 1975–76, the Navy and the country’s Bicentennial, and I got a little bit famous because I coordinated the whole military celebration down at the Broadway Pier, and things like that. And, then when, uh, uh, I went as far as I could, as far as a illustrator, was go—was my part of my career, and they started to do more and more graphics. I mean I worked at every military base in San Diego that you could think of. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then an opportunity came to become, uh, the first civilian and woman to be a, an international military training coordinator, and that’s how I got really involved with the international work, because the job was to be like a cultural, um, leader for the military people that came and their families, and setting up Friendship programs, and ex—not exchange programs, because these were, these were guys that were being trained on the equipment in the ships that we sold as part of the―what they call an international military exchange training program, I met and several others. So, I worked through all the bases doing that, and really loved, um, starting programs for the military and introducing them to American culture. And that was my real first experience, and getting international people to know the native cultures. And I did a lot of—I spent a lot of time down in San Diego, and Chicano Park, and I used to have the military, even the officers, lay down in the, the big, uh, like a pagoda―I’ve forgotten what you 2 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 call it [chuckles], I think this is my senior moment―um, and look up to see the Inca and the Maya—Mayan civilization paintings, ‘cuz that’s where Chicano Park is sort of visualized and painted in amazing murals. And I did part of that on the bridge, the bridge stanchions that show how the Mexicans and the Spaniards came, and the farm workers came. And that was a lot of indigenous peoples from Mexico. And that got me interested. And then coming from Connecticut and New England where we had a lot of Native American tribes, a lot of international people ask about what happened to all the Indians in American culture? And a lot of—back then, a lot of international people only knew about cowboys and Indians, like most of us when we were growing up, you know, decades ago. And it also—it was very interesting to me because my minor in college was Native American Studies. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And that’s how I got introduced to it. But, you know, it was something that you think of academically, although it struck my heart because I was really angry at our educational system for not letting me know, among others, that where I grew up and lived most of my, you know, young adult life prior to college was Indian country. I mean, one of the thirteen colonies. And people don’t realize what kind of impact that had, has on people when you’re growing up. So, that affected my, my heart always. So, when I—in my career, I’ve always had that as a, I want to say, a big influence on what I’ve done to, to teach international people when I travel, both with the military and with the U.N. Kallas: Now, did the military send you to other countries as well? Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. I ended up—I started out doing, like I said, the international training stuff, but then I was on the base closure team, where my career went way up as far as getting higher promotions and better pay, and stuff like that. So I ended up, after doing base closures in most of the San Francisco Bay and Hawaii area, my territory was, I was one of twelve people that did the base closure studies. And then I had an opportunity—kind of as a fluke—to apply for an international job with the Army, and my supervisor and I both did it, um, as a—I don’t know, we just got a, a bug to say, “Oh, let’s see what happens if we apply to do what we’re doing here in the States, doing base closures.” And so, they offered her a job, and she turned it down. And they said “Oh well, the next person on the list is right in your office. Can we talk to her?” That was me! And so I ended up going to Germany. At the time I had been working for the Navy for over twenty years, in different positions like I said, from illustrator to management analyst, and working at foreign training and base closures. So then I ended up going to the Army in Germany, and that was, uh, right after, um, the Bicentennial had ended, and then I did a stint with—I took some time, and got, went on loan as a Vista volunteer, and went up to the Nespelem reservation in Colville, Kettle Falls area of Washington. I got really lucky cuz’ my hero was Chief Joseph [chuckles] and so I worked on that reservation in a parent aid program. But that’s another whole thing that maybe we could talk about later. Because going back to the military, I did this closing the bases in Europe and I became one of the heads of the base closure team there, and that’s how I got to travel to just about every European country there was. And, um, from there, I got recruited by the state department and through my federal military civilian job, went to work for the United Nations in, in Austria after the base closure job in Germany, that I went onward to, 3 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 um, working on loan again. I went on loan from the Navy to the Army, from the Army to the International Atomic Energy Agency, and on loan again to the United Nations Environment Program in Nairobi. I mean there were jobs in between, but, and like I say that the stint I did at— I got to continue my career, even though I stopped working for the military for two years to work on, um, the Vista volunteer program. When Shriv—Sergeant Shriver started the Peace Corps, he also started the Vista volunteer program, which is now, I think, Americorps. So I was in that first round. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And then I went back to civil service and continued on, and onward to U.N. Kallas: And did they send you to, um, war torn countries, and where there was a lot of political unrest— Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. Kallas: —as a representative? TAWFILIS: Yeah. When I went to, um—well, I could say my first stint overseas in Germany with the Army was when the wall came down. And I had just adopted two more children, and uh, I remember during that time the―when the wall came down, my kids were like, like—they were adopted from Mexico, and then—but they were Americans in a sense, so they were Mexican descent. And it was really interesting for them to learn German, so you see two little Mexicans speaking in German [chuckles]. It was kind of cool. And, um, but the war torn part of it was―my job was because the war was over, the Cold War, and the wall came down, the government decided that’s why they wanted to close the bases because they didn’t need that anymore. We had so much military might invested in Germany because that was the actual front, that it made my job easy because the, the common sense of the economic support that they did for Europe, um, on the, well, it was called the front, made sense to start closing the bases. And so, I became a superstar, doing that, because I had people skills, so the generals that I worked for decided that it was great to have a woman civilian go give the commanding officers of the base the good news and the bad news that their base was going to be closed. And as a result of that, I was one of four women chosen to be, um, a member or take part in a study to decide whether civilians should become executive officers of military bases. So, they sent us to Army Management Staff College, and I was one of the four women that attended that. And so, the idea would be that I would become an executive officer of a military base so they could station military in the field. The problem with that is there’s no military that’s going to listen to a civilian as a boss. So, you can ask my son-in-law about that, ‘cuz he was Army. In fact, my daughter met him there in Germany. But, yeah, that was one. And then with the U.N., when I went to Africa, there’s all kinds of―I want to say―conflicts going on, including Somalia, Rwanda, during all that time, and so, yeah, I saw a lot. In fact, I was car-napped and my own personal safety was in danger there, not only from being exposed to so many people that were dying of AIDS, but because of the tribal—there’s like forty tribes in Nairobi alone and there were conflicts and a lot of cultural differences between the tribal people and a lot of, um, little―I want to say―mini wars going on 4 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 and the political strife, and then of course, it was pretty bloody with Rwanda and then Somalia in that area. But I got to travel all over Africa, looking at—my job there was to consolidate the U.N. organizations in Nairobi and the base was called Gigiri, and, um, I got in trouble there, because I tried to support the local indigenous people with the financial area. So, if you want to talk about wars, and danger, and stuff like that, I think people think of shooting, you know, and bombs and stuff. But there’s other kind of wars, like economic ones. And I came up with this idea that civil service employees in international organizations should be cay—should be paid equally. But they have this system in the U.N. where local nationals are―have to go through a wage classification survey and they get the prevailing wage rate, whatever that country is. So, in other words, my secretary in Austria would get $3,000 a month, but my secretary in Nairobi would get $300 dollars a month. Kallas: Oh... Tawfilis: Yeah. And I just didn’t think that made sense, working with the U.N. So, it was kind of a battle there, and I think that was the biggest war for me, is trying to help the local nationals. And I did some―I want to say―out of the ordinary things, like promoting them when other people went out on mission they would hire people to come in and pay them exorbitant amounts of money, including me, because I, I was on a stipend on a daily basis, in addition to my very high salary. But the work was done by the local people. I think that happens everywhere, that the real worker bees don’t get recognized for the, all the work that they do, and they carry on the mission of whatever that country’s, you know, objectives are. And so, I think that’s one of the reasons I got car-napped, because I had a big mouth and I actually wrote a book about how to flatten the United Nations. So, they sent me back. I was on loan from the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna, Austria to Africa, and because I tried to help the local people, I think I wasn’t going to go much further, after ten years, you know, working for the U.N. So, that was my personal battle when you talk about wars, and dangerous things. I mean, when you get to the point where they don’t want you to talk―and it wasn’t the U.N. that did it―it was a person that probably wanted the job that I had―that arranged for this kidnapping or car-napping that I survived. So… Kallas: So, you also, um, had spent time in Bosnia during that— Tawfilis: Yeah, at the end of my career— Kallas: —that was after all the— Tawfilis: with—I was getting ready to retire and, uh, because I was on loan as a very highranked civilian, the only place they could put me would be the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. and I didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. I’d been at the headquarters many times with my job with the Army. I did a lot of stuff for the Army, like I said. And I really didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. So, they gave me a choice of going to Bosnia and working with the widows at Srebrenica, at the end of the conflict in the Balkans between the―where Yugoslavia had broken up. And I went on an interview sponsored by the Clinton Foundation to be the Director of the Bosnian Women’s Initiative or what they—most people know as the Widows of Srebrenica, 5 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 where at some point they gathered the Bosnian women together―and I should say the Bosnian families together―in their village called Srebrenica which was a safe haven. And unfortunately it wasn’t a very well protected safe haven, and on July tenth and eleventh in 197―uh, 1995, the Serbs came in and gave the people ten minutes to come outside, and they put the women on one side of the street, women and children under fourteen and old people, real old people, and then they put the men and boys on the other side and then they took all the women, put them on buses and sent them to a village in the mountains, in Tuzla. And the men disappeared. They found some mass graves. They found some bodies in a forest where they were―tried to run away, I guess, some of the men. And, but they never found the whole―I would say, whole group of the over six to seven thousand. They, they suspect―there’s a lot of theories, and a lot of books written about it. But my job was to work with the women and help them do economic development and to heal and to also help identify bodies and get all their data because they had no pictures of their families. They had, you know, all this stuff that they—they left with nothing. And then to try to help reconciliation between the three entities, and I ended up, you know, working my, my heart and my head off, because working with people who have lost everything and witnessed the destruction of their country and their families getting killed and murdered and their men disappearing, and these were mostly farm women that didn’t even know how to write their name. So, I think I worked harder in my life those three or four years that I was there doing everything from gathering information to help put the war crimes together because these people were still on the loose. And then throughout the years, the military would find them and capture the war crime perpetrators and bring them to the Hague and they were imprisoned, and some of them—I won’t name names—passed away in prison before they could be tried. But it was terrible trying to identify remains with the women. Maybe it would be just shreds of a shirt but they recognized their husbands. And then having all that emotional—I think I have a whole book of stories I could write about their suffering. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: But because of that, I was encouraged to go work in the orphanage and there three hundred fifty orphans. I have a TED talk online, TED-X from Orange Coast College. And, it was―it’s called “Painting Outside the Lines.” I also have one from UCSD “Stem to Steam” because I put the art part in there. But back to the Bosnian situation and I guess as the point of my career that changed my life that we were going to talk about, because when I saw what the children had gone through and I―they―they told me—you were getting— I was getting very depressed, and they said “you need to go work in this orphanage.” So, the three hundred fifty orphans from all three entities, but they had not found or located all families. So, some of the kids had no survivors. I understand that most of them they were able to place them years later. But while I was there, my―my, uh, free time, if you want to call it free time, was to go and work with these kids to do art. And then after about three months of just sketching and coloring and stuff, they asked if they could make a very big painting and I interpreted that as a mural. And so if you―you’ll hear on the TED talk, how we found bed sheets in a closet that were full of sort of darned holes and the―they explained to me that the young ladies in Europe learn how to sew, which we did away with here in the United States. But there they sew everything. So, when they 6 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 pulled out the sheets, and they had all these little stitches, and some still had holes, I, when I asked them what the holes were about, they said “Well, this used to be a hospital, and it was bombed. So these were from the shells and the shrapnel that, that, you know, made holes in the walls and the bedding and the whole bit of the ugly hospital beds over there.” So, what I did was the Army had left a 10-gallon pan―pail of white flat, white wall paint and I, I had them sew two sheets together and I put masking tape on the back where I thought there were the least amount of holes and then I just painted. I put a whole bunch of newspaper, and in the morning it turned into a very stiff canvas! So, we had a canvas and the kids got very excited. Every time I think about their faces when they saw that, and then it was like “Oh, we’ve got to paint that whole thing?” You know… Kallas: So, that’s when your two careers intersected, so you kind of went back to—. Tawfilis: Right. Kallas: roots, and— TAWFILIS: And I got to do art, right? So, but what changed my life were the, the children and the oldest one was about eighteen and then they had a little eighteen or nineteen-month-old baby in there, and they divided the kids up into groups of five. And they took two older, mostly teens, and then three younger kids, so they could take care of each other, ‘cuz they only had five people running this whole orphanage. There was psychologist, and then the other four were caregivers, and they cooked for them, and made sure that they were, you know, trying to keep them busy. There were—I don’t even think they had formal education for them, because there was nothing. And they were just being protected and fed, and trying—and I think doing the art was a real important thing in their lives. So, how my life changed was, the kids started—I said “you have to decide what you want to paint.” So, what they—I had them do, is I said “Draw something that you want on this canvas.” So, they all did it, and I still have some of the sketches. I should have brought some. But they, they, they had to come up with an idea that would go on the canvas. So, we looked at all the drawings and they started forming this dialogue and they started talking to each other. And you have to understand these kids were very depressed themselves, and they had these real— Kallas: Traumatized. Tawfilis: Yeah. They were all traumatized and they were kind of afraid of each other when they were—they knew that one was a Serb, and one was a Croat, and one was Bosnian. And they didn’t―they matched them up by age, not so much by what sect of religion they belonged to. So, and in children weren’t so attuned, maybe the older ones were a little bit more conscious of their religious differences, whatever. But in the discussions that they were doing, they started talking about the trauma that they had gone through. And some of the kids knew each other from the different villages that they had come from. And I found myself going outside, crying myself, because they started talking about what they saw, what they felt. And even now, when I think about it, it’s still—it burns a hole in your heart, but it—I wondered how this was going to work. And I’d go back in, and then they decided on a theme. And what was happening is they were going through a catharsis themselves, and they ended up with coming up with the theme 7 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 “Yesterday and Tomorrow.” And the Yesterday section of this one―I guess we would call it a triptych in our art language, Yesterday, they did sketches of houses that had no roofs, ‘cuz they’d blown up. Airplanes dropping bombs, and then because the women were wearing kerchiefs because they were Bosnian Muslim, they had their heads covered. There, a lot of the little drawings had little pictures of women lined up, going, and they remembered having to come out of the houses in Srebrenica and line up on the other side of the street. So you saw―you would see sketches of that, and dragons, and just ugly things that they, fires, things burning. And then the middle section where they had put the groups of five together, they drew their little new families, which was really cute. Kallas: That’s awesome. TAWFILIS: And then on the third panel was, were flowers and clowns and balloons and stuff like that. So they called it “Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow.” So after five days of going through that, I can say that was a life changer for me, and, and I was telling my husband about it, and we, we made that first mural, and he was in the process of constructing a new building, me, a gallery, and we called it Avenida de Los Artistas. So, we had a Spanish name in a German country, speaking country in Austria. We started, he started doing murals, or I started it on the wall, one of the walls of the museum that was being built, at the gallery. So, when I’d go back home, we were making murals, and after about a hundred of them we said “we should make this a project.” Because the latch kids would be coming, then the schools started sending kids over. So we turned it into a project, and actually Foulad, my husband, was the man who came up with the idea of calling it “Art Mile.” We didn’t know it was going to turn into twelve miles! But that’s how it started. And then at one point I met a professor from Wesleyan University, and I did some murals. The very first mural we did outside of Bosnia was in Austria. And then on one of my trips back to Connecticut, I met this professor from Wesleyan, and we did one at the university there. And he said “You need to tell the U.N. about your project.” And, so, there are lots of things going on, wars, conflicts all over. And so the United Nations had set up a program called the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And it was founded by Ambassador Chaudry of the U.N. who was at the time Under Secretary General for small developing nations and island nations. And he had written the resolution to start this International Decade from 2001 to the end of 2010. And so my husband and I had this crazy idea of going to New York and getting him to support it as a U.N. project. And at the same time, the son, the grandson of Jacques Cousteau heard about us, and said “I’d love to see what you’re doing. Maybe you should do murals about the sea.” So he flew from London and met us at the famous hotel in New York, and I was, while I was there to meet Ambassador Chaudry and said he would love to see us do murals about the oceans and the sea and the water. And at that time he was at grad school, I believe. And so our very first celebrity fan was Phillipe Cousteau, the son of Phillipe Cousteau, who passed away in a plane crash. He was one of the two sons of Jacques Cousteau. So we went on to the U.N. and just unrolled five canvases, one of them was done in Nairobi, and it went all the way down the hallway, cuz they were five feet by twelve feet, so we had almost fifty feet of canvas going down the hallway and Ambassador Chaudry’s office took up a whole floor of People in the U.N. building and they all came and looked at it and they all fell in love with the project. And that’s when we got his support and endorsement, and we started doing murals. And 8 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 now we’ve got over twelve miles of murals from all over the world, which many of them are right here in this building. And our headquarters is in North County and Oceanside. Kallas: And that is called? Tawfilis: The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center. We had it set up as the first mural museum in the world, and for people who don’t know the word “Muramid” comes from murals that were being constructed into a pyramid which we had set up a project. My husband came up with the design and he did the photography of over a thousand murals and did them in miniature because we were going to create the Muramid Pyramid at the great Pyramids in Giza. And at the time, we had also, I had retired. We had moved to Egypt. We have a home there. And my husband spent a lot of time and a lot of money. What we called Back Cheese, with the paying under the table to the Minister of Education, Minister of Culture, to do a fourth pyramid to be constructed with piping, I don’t know if they call it, it wasn’t the PPV―PVC piping, it was metal. And he designed that. And then a company here in Oceanside―not Oceanside,―in Irvine, “Supercolor Photo,” were kind enough to make the model and take my husband’s design of the miniature murals and make a cover. And we were able to have a ten-foot model that we were going, we used in several places. In fact, we have ten models all over the world right now, including Japan. And we participated in international conferences and things like that. And the whole idea was to have, to have [someone enters the room, off camera] I thought I locked the door, sorry. Anyway, the whole idea was at the end of 2010 we would have this celebration to commemorate the closing of the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And then, what happened was, because we had so many conflicts we ended up with a second decade, which ended at the end of 2021. Kallas: Now all of your—you have twelve themes for your Art Miles. Tawfilis: Mm-hmm. Kallas: Can you share a little bit about that, and what, what people gained from doing these murals? Tawfilis: Sure. The first thing that we did was Peace, Unity, and Healing. And then we ended up with the Women, because the women’s influence on art and healing. That’s where the healing part came in. And you know when you think about peace, unity, and healing, then you talk about women and their role in it. And then we started environment, because everybody started complaining, and worrying about climate change. And as you know, that has a subject that has increased so many, so much all over the world. And it’s happening. We’re all experiencing that. And then we started doing murals in response to every human and natural disaster. That’s even when 9/11 happened in 2001, it was a big deal and we did, like, many murals and actually exhibited some of them on, at Ground Zero. We were there, doing the mural, at Georgetown University on September 11. And we got sequestered into the hotel that we were staying at, because we were doing a Children’s Environmental Health Network thing. But anyway, back to the themes, so that’s how the environment started. We, the third one was Children’s Environmental Health Network where they actually did a film about us there. And while we were doing that, we ended up being, watching the Twin Towers come down. And then from there we 9 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 started Children’s and then Fairytale and then Sports and Music, and so now we have Hero and we had—then we started the Japanese government, or I should say our Japanese team started doing an exchange program. They called it, they call it the International Intercultural Mural Exchange where they do half of a mural in Japan and the other half in another country, with another school. So, there’s four hundred forty murals for each themed. They’re all, not all five by twelve, some of them are half sized. But our goal was to at least get to twelve miles, and then in 2008 we attempted to break the Guinness Book of World Records. But three weeks before that, we found out that the United Arab Emirates had already done that with the longest mural in the world. And we couldn’t surpass it, because they, they would, they did like ten-mile, not ten miles, ten murals more than us. But, even the, the grand master, whatever they call them, that comes to do the, to officiate measurements stuff, said ours weren’t connected, and they want a continuous theme. So, what the, what happened with the United Arab Emirates, they did, they did, I think at that time, like four miles, about women, and it was done for International Women’s Day and they featured the, all the children. And all the schools did murals about the sheikah, or the queen, I guess. And then they had to burn it, because it was done on paper, and Islam doesn’t allow images. So, but they did break the record. Plus, it cost ten thousand dollars to bring the guy over, and we didn’t have that kind of money. We still don’t have that kind of money, because we do it all from our hearts, very few donations. Kallas: And can you talk a little bit of how the initial concept of murals has evolved over the years, compared to where you started in Bosnia, and to where you are right now with the murals. Tawfilis: Yeah. I think the biggest change is education. We found that education has come to the forefront because whenever, whatever thing you’re working on, it teaches you something, you know, whether it’s fairy tales that are originally thought of by children and from their imaginations or sports. There are―you learn what the sport’s all about. Music, the same thing. We’ve even had music murals created while people are looking at a mural and they write music about it. And then, or vice versa. Or when it’s in the indigenous mile. At one time we presented a—because I was in Connecticut at the time, we had someone present the idea of doing—we discovered there were five hundred fifty recognized tribes. And so they did a resolution at the National Congress of American Indians, NCAI, that each tribe would contribute a mural. But we got so busy, and then my husband passed away. We have never followed up on that. I don’t know how long those resolutions last. But I would love to revive it. But since that time, I’ve also discovered there’s a whole bunch of non-recognized tribes. And I think that has appealed to me more, because I feel like, how could you not recognize a tribe? I don’t care. I know that there, their requirements have DNA and numbers of members and whether they have a reservation or whatever. But, it’s not accounting, some of the tribes don’t get credit for just being there, and being there first. And they were decimated by whatever colonial tribe or―how would I say―shouldn’t be―that’s the wrong word―colonial influence that came in and took over those lands, even in our own wars, in the Civil War. Even before that, they, you know, the genocide of Native Americans is something that most Americans don’t even know about. They don’t even know about there’s so many tribes in every country that they went through the same thing. You know, the genocide of every African nation. There’s thirty-three countries in Africa! And most Americans don’t know that. There―you could go there, and you could say “The Dutch took over 10 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 this country. The Italians did this country. The Brits did this.” You know. And they left their influence, but they also started slavery, and brought it here. And then―and I think that’s why there is a bond between a lot of Native Americans. When you―one thing I’ve even discovered more of later in my life is how Native Americans helped so many slaves, you know, following the Civil War. Protected them, and hid them, and intermarried, and that’s why there’s a lot of controversy among white people about―they had this concept the Indians were “red.” First of all, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a red person, or a yellow Chinese person, or maybe caramel, like me. [both she and Linda chuckle] And when you think of black, kids in school when you say “These are Africans.” They use black crayons or black paint. There are some very black people, I think. Some countries have all shades. India has black India people from East India. And Senegal people mostly are darker than most, you know. But there’s also a whole shades, hues of people. But like Aki, our drummer, says “Inside we all have red blood. We all have bones.” You know, and when we all die, you can’t tell, maybe by the―anthropologists will tell you about the skulls and the framework and stuff like that. But color? No. Religion, you know, that’s another thing. So, the other—to get back to your question. The other evolution has been healing. I think the focus now is more on healing, because we have so much―what’s the word―conflicts around the world. And then personal violence going on with school shootings and the massive massacres with massive killings all over and accidents and natural disasters, with hurricanes and floods. Right here in California, the fires, right here! They came right up to the back door here, you know. And if you drive up through the mountains going to, to go buy a pie, you’re going to find out. You drive through all the reservation areas and you see where the fires from the past―you see those still the black, some of the trees, and there’s a big contrast with the silhouettes of those trees and then the―now the overgrown greenery. It’s so beautiful, and you know, things like that. So, healing has made a big difference, because when people―and what I’m really, I think, what I’d like to share in this interview with you―is that healing isn’t just the murals that we send to the people who have been become victims and their families of those who were killed or injured in these horrible violent events or disasters. It’s us, ourselves. When each school shooting happens, how many parents and people with a heart feel that pain, of, of—I can’t—every time I hear of a school shooting, I think of those poor little kids, and I grieve for them and for their families and for the friends and the neighbors that were there. And my first exposure to that was actually the, the widows watching those children, and then 9/11 when the Red Cross had murals being done all over. We have some amazing murals that came from all over the country and the world, displaying their feelings. And one of them, one of the ones that stands out in my mind, is Hope, Alaska did one. And it, the whole mural is the word “Hope” but inside the word “Hope” they drew people, and a lot of native and indigenous people are in that. And then, when Sandy Hook happened from my, where I’m from, Connecticut, I went there, and to see those little children, you know. How can anybody go in and kill all those little tiny kindergarten kids, and the teachers? And then what people don’t know there’s, in America, there’s a place called Besan, near Russia, where the radicals, and the— Kallas: Government was involved in―. 11 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 Tawfilis: Yeah, over two hundred people, two hundred kids and teachers killed. And then again, recently, you know, I mean we could go on and on. And every time we did a mural, it was like once or twice a year, and now, I mean, I think in July we had three shootings, and, you know, things we had to respond to. And actually, I’m behind! We haven’t been able to do, Massa from the, Mahsa Imani―Amini, from the―from Iran, because we’re so busy. We just finished Ukraine, you know. There’s just, St. Louis. All this stuff keeps happening. So, healing! Kallas: So, part of your process in dealing with this tragedy is there’s a healing element for you to respond to those through a mural. And you send those murals to those places, correct? Tawfilis: Yeah. And we’ve been lucky. Sometimes we hear back, and sometimes we don’t. Because you can’t expect everybody, every city and town, to say “Oh, gosh, all these people.” You know, people send food and clothing. And a lot of people do art and murals and flowers and, and stuff like that. So, I know, you know, part of giving, what people don’t understand is we give and we do murals from our heart. We don’t expect a lot in return. What I expect is when people paint a mural to send that they are sharing that same emotion that I feel that they want people to know that we’re thinking of them, and that we’re sending our prayers and good wishes. I know people think that a lot of non-governmental organizations do things for money. Well, we’re, we’re a great example of “No” [laughs], because― Kallas: Non-profit. Tawfilis: Yeah, we are a true non-profit. And my husband and I and a lot of people have contributed. We don’t have an overhead staff that we, we pay for. We can’t. We just don’t, you know. Thank goodness we have good―there’s so many―I focus on the good people and the good things that come. If I started thinking about what I have or what I don’t, you know, what I don’t have, with other organizations that get grants, and they have sponsors and philanthropists look at them, I would never be able to do what I do. At this age, I’m just now starting―we have a Foundation that we’re working on, and my goal is to finally, if I realize it, if I want to have a legacy in the name, in the memory of my husband who gave up his career, and out of my true care and I say, I want to say concern for people who are suffering, and indigenous people, I think that’s why I want it here. That’s what brought my here. I think the Creator, whoever your Creator is, my Creator is a number of spiritual things, that I saw this place that we’re sitting in right now before we opened the Muramid and Artists Alley. And my husband said “It’s too small. It looks like a house!” And it was full of crazy stuff that had been here before. So, it was neglected and smelly. It didn’t have high ceilings when we peeked in the windows, and he, he just kind of passed it on. But, something called out to me in this place. And I remember driving around one day after I knew I had to leave Artists Alley, because he passed away. I hadn’t, didn’t have the infrastructure and the help that I do now with Aki and his drumming and neighbors and friends and people that have helped put this thing together. I remember driving around and it still had a For Rent style on here―sign―and I parked the car and I called the guy and the property manager. And it was still in the same shape that it had been, I guess, six years before. So, this place had been empty for a while. I think maybe something might have happened in between, but I doubt it, because judging from when we did get inside, and there was a lot of feces, dead animals, all 12 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 kinds of stuff. But I can feel this place. When we took down the ceiling, because it was that―what do they call it―insulation hanging down, and I looked at the wood, and I realized “Wow, this place was here a long time ago.” I didn’t know the history of the place, but I’ve been told it was the original general store for the Mission. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then when I found out about the Mission and, you know, being a Catholic, in a former life, I thought “Wow, this is pretty cool!” Then I remember reading, like other things in Connecticut, that there were people here before the Mission came, and I got really passionate about “I’m going to put it right there.” And I want to dedicate the place to the Luiseño, because I found out that they are the people that this belongs to. And everybody that comes in the door, every single person, I can’t think of one that hasn’t come in the door for the first time and goes “Wow! This place, it has such great karma. It feels warm and friendly, and it’s inviting and it’s good to be in here and it’s so creative.” And I went [claps her hands together] “Yes! That’s what we’re all about.” And so, I think we are an important piece of the history of this place because I feel like an archive in here, of some sort. And the Mural Project has found its home, and I think that’s an important part of being the history up here in the North County, to have a project that’s global in scope that has been participated in by over a half a million people from over a hundred countries. To land in a place that is based on what everybody should know about indigenous communities. My hope is that―and I started out with my husband and I both said, you know, before we wanted to feature different cultures, because we felt that Americans weren’t quite educated enough to understand the diversity and the richness of cultures from other people, and other countries, including this country, you know. There’s so many―and I don’t want to use the term “white”―but there’s a lot of American, white people who don’t understand that they came here from other countries as well. And in their own country, if they look back in their roots, they’ll find out that they come in different shades as well. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And that the stolen land―you know, recently I watched a documentary about Alabama where the last slave ship came in and it was against the law to even bring slaves after 1860 or something like that. But it was one ship’s captain who said “I can show you how to do it, and I’m going to prove it.” And he did it out of rebellion and brought a hundred and twenty slaves from Africa, made them get off the ship, near Mobile, Alabama, and in the water, the swamp, they got on to the land. I understand they stayed there for a few weeks and then they divided them into three different plantations. But they burned that ship in that. They said they wanted to get rid of the evidence. Well, that was a genocide in and off itself, of history. And now after four hundred years or whatever, they’re finding all these remnants. You can go anywhere, even here. When we started doing the back, we found a cross in the yard that, that must have been buried in the ground from whatever was here before. And I always wondered what happened and what’s going on with all this gentrification and the new building over there. It hurts my heart. And I talked to a Luiseño member who is one of our drummers, a woman, she said “every time she goes by” and she’s a school bus driver, she said “it hurts my heart.” Because she knows there’s another thing 13 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 covering it up and erasing part of the history of this place. And I’m really sorry that, you know, recently the newspaper said “the wave just got approved with the valley over there, and the rest of the valley. And I live in a place that I look at that, and I, I could cry just thinking about it. Right across the street from Pablo Tac Elementary School. They’re going to build a wave park like we need one so close to the ocean? I mean, come on. Commercialization is just really destroying the natural history of many places including right here where we live. So, I’m hoping that the owner of the properties here will never let this place become that wave even though I can see a beautiful little old town here. You know, I like to see more cultural things happen here. And I’d love to see the cultural district expand from downtown to where the real history is here. I mean, uh, it’s to me almost sinful that we don’t put more emphasis on what the history of this area, of Oceanside, is all about. It’s all on the front, at the waterfront. It’s all commercial. They even destroyed the waterfront in my eyes, by putting all that, the hotels and stuff. Kallas: Well, in trying to put it all together here, in breadth and in depth is community building. Tawfilis: Correct. Kallas: Through the murals, through the other work you’ve done. It seems to be the main theme of your life, and now you have the Center. And doesn’t it also have something to do with UNESCO? Tawfilis: Yes! We recently became the UNESCO Center for Peace for all of California and Baja. And with that I think will help enhance my opportunity and all the people that work with us to bring more cultural education and healing to this area, and to educate people about what real peace begins with me, and our neighbors and our families. And then, you know, I know this all sounds very philosophical but it’s true, you know. And, um, I think we have a pretty good mayor who supports local people more than others that I’ve seen. Maybe it’s because I see her out there in the community more than I’ve seen other mayors do. And I know that she is of Mexican descent, but I also believe that Mexicans have a lot of indigenous people here as well. Kallas: Right. Tawfilis: And when I talk about Mexicans, I don’t mean that they are the invaders of the people that took over. They too have been, you know, victims of genocide. All this belonging to part of that. But the first people here from all the history that I have been able to do my own research on, were the Luiseños. And so, my passion and dedication is going to be based on that. I am going to be looking at other cultures and introducing the people of the world to our local community through this center. But this is―This year, the Valley Arts Festival will feature my dedication to that. As I have this painting behind me. It’s kind of weird that we have this Mexican lady, native, behind me, and then my dancer, and then I am going to do a dedicated mural to the Spirit of the Valley, and to the tribal captain and a woman who happens to be his sister who I think is, in my eyes, the official historian of just about everything that could ever happen to the Luiseños here. And I feel very fortunate, um, coming from where I do, and what I did in Connecticut with the Mashantucket Pequots to see them grow and have the best museum in my eyes, in the whole world, indigenous or otherwise because it’s interactive. To be with people that are still alive that I can talk to and interact with that live right here in this community. So… 14 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 Kallas: So, going forward, what, um, what other projects are on the horizon for you. Tawfilis: Well― Kallas: Besides what you just talked about, are there other avenues that you’re going to pursue? Tawfilis: Oh, thank you for asking. Because one way of documenting history is books. So, I’m writing, actually there’ll be four books that I hope will be coming from me. But interacting with other people, we’re doing, taking the murals now, what am I going to do with twelve miles of murals? My goal is to convince the Smithsonian that they need to take these, because to me it’s a visual documentation of two decades or more of history by the people and for the people. This is their words, not some author who wrote a book about the history of something. It’s from all over the world, and it addresses social issues everywhere. So, what I’m hoping to do is we have a Foundation that we’re going to be―we are part of, called the Endangered Planet Foundation, and our project will, will be embracing that and taking the mural images and trying to create practical products from the mural images and raising money through the sales of textiles and books and things like that, tangible things that can go into a fund that will keep this project going, and long after I’m gone. Hopefully until then I can help form a solid board and we can end up hiring a staff which we’ve never had, to carry on this project, because I think it’s something that can continue. Mural art has been growing all over the world. The cave men have come a long way from their images to creating murals not just on walls but on canvas and ours is mobile. I wanted to have a voice for people that could be shared, not stuck on a wall that you’re never going to― I’m maybe some people will never get to Machu Pichu or to the Egyptian temples and pyramids or caves where we have here in the United States with etchings and things on them. So, this way we can bring people closer together. So that’s the future, is I want to leave a legacy and because I know what works. What other non-profit organization can survive for almost twenty-five years with no money? I’ll tell you why. Because people believe in it, and we believe in it with all our hearts and souls. And, as nearing my seventy-seventh birthday, I bypassed seventy-five because of Covid. I think we have proof in the pudding, so, yeah, that’s the plan, is to continue. Kallas: And speaking from personal experience, I’ve actually experienced the healing process and that sense of community where we’re all working on the same thing at the same time. There’s just so much unity in that and it’s very, you could really internalize that. Tawfilis: Well you know the big―bottom line is mural art gives you a chance to express yourself even with a group, because as you know doing quilt, we do that kind of style with murals as well, in different forms or whatever. You get to express yourself individually but you do it with a group and it brings you all closer together, and in doing so you talk to each other, and the bottom line is you find out how much more we have in common than we have in differences. Which sounds like a cliché, but boy it’s true. Kallas: It’s very true. Tawfilis: We actually do it. And we make ourselves, I mean, better people because we get to know and appreciate other people’s opinions, even if we don’t agree with them. We hear what they’re thinking and feeling, and we learn a lot from each other. And I think that’s how peace is 15 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 going to happen, when we begin to open our minds and our hearts to understanding that we’re different but we all have the same basic common needs. We all want to eat. We all want to be able to have a home over our heads and feel safe. And the richness of having other cultures influencing your life―it’s like if you’re only going to eat American hot dogs and hamburgers, what a boring life that would be, right? [Linda laughs] I always think of it simplistically like that because you end up going “Gee, I like Thai food. I like Chinese food. I like Italian food. Whatever.” Well, that comes from people, you know. And so, the blend and the magic of seeing the dancing from, and the music, the different forms of music, and you can be native American and play rock-n-roll music. I happen to know somebody who can do that and do it well. Or a Filipino that can sing beautiful, musical songs. Or the homeless people with the choir that was started right here from North County. I mean I think that’s a great, you know, cultural contribution to history. So. Kallas: Well, Joanne, thank you so much. It’s been an honor and a privilege to do this interview with you. And I want to repeat something I recently told a mutual friend about you, that I truly think you are a work of art. Tawfilis: Oh, my goodness. Kallas: And I just thank you so much. Tawfilis: Well, thank you. And I also want to say that I did get a PhD at the age of 71. So, my message to all those who think that you never learned and you can’t earn a degree as you get older, you’re wrong. You can get it, and mine was honorary, and I’m really proud of it now because I used to think―I’m very humble about it because I do understand how much hard work goes in to doing a dissertation. I almost got there. I could have done that, but I traveled so much I couldn’t finish. But understanding that when you do a life’s work dedicated to something, I think it’s deserved. I’m saying that today for the first time, that looking back on my career, I did earn it. Kallas: Yes, you did. Tawfilis: And I’m very happy that my, if my dad were alive and I received a big award when I retired. I got the highest award you could get as a civilian and they gave me miniature medal. It’s from the military. As well as a big one. And when I went to Arlington I put that miniature beneath my dad’s cross at Arlington National Cemetery. And I, when I got my PhD, my first trip to Washington, D.C., afterwards I went directly there, and I told my dad “Guess what, dad? You wanted me to get an education, and I got a Ph.D.” Kallas: Wow, what a great note to close on. Thank you again. I really appreciate this. Tawfilis: Thank you. [Looking off camera to someone else] Did I put you to sleep? Unknown male voice: No, that’s a wrap. 16 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 GLOSSARY: Aki (pg.11,12) Ambassador Chaudry (pg.8) Americorps (pg.4) Arlington National Cemetery (pg.16) Army Management Staff College (pg.4) Artist’s Alley (pg.2) Art Miles (pg.2,8) Back Cheese (pg.9) Base closure team (pg.3) Besan (near Russia) (pg.11) Bosnian Women’s Initiative (pg.5) Broadway Pier (pg.2) Chicano Park (pg.3) Chief Joseph (pg.3) Children’s Environmental Health Network (pg.9) Colville (pg.3) Endangered Planet Foundation (pg.15) Foulad (pg.8) Friendship Program (pg.2) Gigiri (pg.5) International Atomic Energy Agency (pg.4,5) International Decade for the Culture of Peace (pg.8,9) International Intercultural Mural Exchange (pg.10) Kettle Falls (pg.3) Luiseño (pg.13,14) Mahsa Amini (pg.12) Mashantucket Pequots (pg.14) 17 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 Mural Museum (pg.2) Muramid Arts and Cultural Center (pg.9) Muramid Pyramid (pg.9) National Congress of American Indians (pg.10) Nespelem (pg.3) Orange Coast College (pg.6) Pablo Tac Elementary School (pg.14) “Painting Outside the Lines” (pg.6) Peace, Unity, Healing (pg.9) Sergeant Shriver (pg.4) Srebrenica (pg.5) “Stem to Steam” (pg.6) Submarine School (pg.2) Supercolor Photo (pg.9) Tuzla (pg.6) UNESCO Center for Peace (pg.14) United Nation Environment Program, Nairobi (pg.4) Vista Volunteer Program (pg.4) 18 Transcribed by Melissa Martin � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tawfilis, Joanne. Interview transcript, October 31, 2022. Description An account of the resource Joanne Tawfilis is the executive director of the Art Miles Mural Project, which has had the participation of over 500,000 people from 125 countries to paint murals. Tawfilis and her late husband Fouad started the Art Miles Mural Project after Tawfilis worked with orphans in Bosnia, where they created a murals using the only materials available -- a 10 gallon can of white wall pain and bedsheets riddled with bullet holes. The Art Miles Mural Project is currently homed at the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center in Oceanside, California, where there are electronic displays of over 5,000 murals, art classes, music, and spoken word performances. Tawfilis has had a storied career and has worked with the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Women of Srebrenica Project, and UNESCO. In her interview, Tawfillis discusses her career working as a civilian employee of the military, as well as her work with the United Nations, IAEA, and the Women of Srebrenica Project. Tawfilis also discusses the creation of the Art Miles Mural Project, the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, and her thoughts on art as a vehicle for healing, empathy, and peace. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joanne Tawfilis Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Linda Kallas Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-31 Subject The topic of the resource Art Miles Project Bosnian Women's Initiative International Atomic Energy Agency Military base closures Mural painting and decoration Muramid Art and Cultural Center (Oceanside, Calif.) Orphanages--Bosnia and Herzegovina Srebrenica Massacre, Srebrenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1995 Unesco United States. Army United States. Navy Women artists Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceanside (Calif.) Srebrenica (Bosnia and Herzegovina) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joanne Tawfilis License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_transcription Activists and activism Art and artists Community history North County Oral History Initiative Politics and governance Women's experience