19 10 196 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Linda Kallas Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joanne Tawfilis OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Tawfilis, Joanne. Interview October 31, 2022. SC027-052 01:11:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Military base closures ; United States. Army ; United States. Navy ; Muramid Arts Center (Oceanside, Calif.) ; Mural painting and decoration ; Bosnian Women's Initative ; Srebrenica Massacre, Srebrenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1995 ; Orphanages--Bosnia and Herzegovina ; International Atomic Energy Agency ; Unesco ; Art Miles Project Joanne Tawfilis Linda Kallas mp4 1.0:|18(13)|37(10)|52(10)|63(18)|75(9)|88(4)|102(6)|112(4)|126(7)|138(9)|149(7)|159(14)|169(10)|188(12)|198(5)|208(14)|218(3)|227(14)|242(9)|252(6)|268(6)|278(17)|287(9)|297(7)|310(8)|320(20)|330(11)|348(5)|359(6)|374(6)|384(15)|397(8)|408(13)|417(3)|428(8)|441(17)|451(5)|467(3)|476(18)|486(15)|496(11)|508(12)|519(5)|529(12)|540(11)|550(11)|559(5)|570(13)|579(12)|593(6)|607(11)|621(5)|630(4)|641(10)|655(13)|665(4)|676(5)|690(12)|701(4)|711(13)|728(15)|740(15)|749(7)|766(4)|776(13)|786(11)|798(10)|814(9)|825(13)|841(9)|854(16)|862(8)|953(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b2580fba038f13dc496911c1023b4dcf.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Interview with Joanne Tawfilis by Linda Kallas, October 31, 2022. Linda Kallas ; Joanne Tawfilis 0 45 Early life and childhood Tawfilis talks about her early life, where she was born in New London, Connecticut and offers a brief introduction to her family. Family ; New London Connecticut ; Filipino ; Dad 0 90 Moving and living in California Tawfilis talks about her moving to California, as well as mentions how San Diego County is one her favorite places she has ever been to. It is here where she also discovered her sense of community through the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center. San Diego ; 1971 ; travelling ; retirement ; moving ; Multicultural center ; Oceanside 0 240 Career as an artist Tawfilis talks about how she started her career in art, from doing illustrations with the U.S. Government, United Nations, and civilian sectors. Tawfilis's career included working at the Submarine School in Connecticut, the Navy and country's Bicentennial, and as an International Military Training Coordinator. Tawfilis also speaks to the impact of Chicano Park. Military ; United Nations ; San Diego ; Chicano Park ; Submarine School in Connecticut 0 597 International Work Tawfilis describes her time doing work both for the military and the United Nations. As part of her work with the military, Tawfilis did bas closure studies. Tawfilis was offered a job and moved to Germany, and from there had the opportunity to work in almost every European country doing base closures. Tawfilis also worked for the Vista Volunteer Program and then the United Nations. It is through these experiences that she learned other languages and honed her people skills. It is also through this opportunity that Tawfilis worked in countries going through turmoil and war, such as Somalia, and Cold War Germany, where she worked closely with the constant unrest around there. Military ; Travel ; United Nations ; Germany ; Austria ; Army ; Kettle Falls, Washington ; Europe ; Atomic Energy Agency ; United Nations Environment Program in Nairobi ; Sergeant Shriver ; Peace Corps ; Americorps ; Vista Volunteer Program ; Africa ; Somalia ; AIDS ; Gigiri ; War ; Germany ; Austria ; Cold war ; Berlin Wall ; Army Management Staff College 0 1077 Work with the United Nations Tawfilis talks about her time working with the United Nations, the conditions of U.N. employees that are local nationals, and briefly speaks about why she was car-napped. United Nations ; Vienna ; Austria ; Africa ; Kidnapping ; Bosnia 0 1211 Work in Bosnia / end of her career Tawfilis speaks about the end of her career, close to her retirement. Given a choice of working at the Pentagon or working in Bosnia, Tawfilis took a position as the Director of the Bosnian Women's Initiative (commonly known as the Widows of Srebrenica) in response to the Srebrenica massacre of six to seven thousand men. This choice led her to eventually work in an orphanage, where Tawfilis worked with children in creating art. Tawfilis mentions her TED talk "Painting Outside the Lines" where she goes into more detail on the project. Bosnia ; retirement ; Washington D.C ; Army ; Serbia ; Women ; murder ; TED Talk ; TED-X ; UCSD ; Orange Coast College ; Orphanage 0 1645 Artwork through the Orphanage Tawfilis describes her time working for the orphanage, and explains how working for the orphanage, led her to her passion for art through the children there. Tawfilis also began to work on murals honoring specific tragic events.&#13 ; &#13 ; Orphanage ; Children ; Yesterday and Tomorrow ; Art ; Religion ; Bombings ; UN ; Connecticut ; Art Mile ; Avenida de Los Artistas ; Foulad 0 2129 The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center Tawfilis describes setting up the The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, which is the first mural museum in the world. She explains here how they came up with ideas for various murals. She also breifly describes how they are made, using objects such as PVC to make the murals in multiple dimensions. Tawfilis also mentions how their murals are located all over the world. Giza ; The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center ; Pyramid ; Egypt ; Oceanside ; Irvine ; Japan ; Murals ; International Decade for the Culture of Peace 0 2280 Art Miles Tawfilis talks about the art project referred to as "Art Miles" which is a series of murals that spans a long distance. Mural themes have included peace, unity, and women, and also tackle issues from every human and natural disaster. The project has also done murals on cultural creations such as sports and music. Tawfilis details some of the murals and what they represent, and speaks to mural making as a form of self improvement and healing, in response to their often tragic origins. Women ; Art Miles ; diasters ; Murals ; climate change ; Children’s Environmental Health Network ; Music ; Sports ; Japan ; Guinness Book of World Records ; United Arab Emirates ; NCAI ; Africa ; Native Americans ; Guiness Book of World Records 0 3036 Murals, continued Tawfilis talks about how the ideas of the murals spread, and how they are able to reach out following a tragic event and create a mural for that community, hoping for something that will mean a lot to these people, instead of payment. Tawfilis also talks about some of the logistics of running a non-profit that creates murals. non-profit ; emotion ; Creator ; non-governmental organizations 0 3283 Sprituality, people, and culture in the murals Tawfilis speaks to the importance of culture and representation -- especially of indigenous cultures in murals, and that the Muramid's global scope is vital to North San Diego County's fabric. Catholic ; Connecticut ; Mission ; Luiseno ; North County ; Indigenous communities ; Diversity 0 3433 Enslaved Africans and indigenous peoples Tawfilis gives a background of slavery post-civil war and a loophole that was used to continue to bring enslaved peoples into the United States. Tawfilis speaks to how in Oceanside, the gentrification and commercialization of the area is leading to the destruction of its natural beauty and history. Tawfilis mentions the Muramid's ties to UNESCO as a Center for Peace for all of California and Baja. Tawfilis also speaks of Mexican and Luiseño peoples, how similar their experiences are with the destruction of their local communities for the sake of tourism and advancement. Slavery ; Mobile, Alabama ; Africa ; History ; Mural ; Commercialization ; Oceanside ; UNESCO ; Center for Peace for all of California and Baja ; Mashantucket Pequots ; Mexicans ; Indigenous people ; Machu Pichu ; Egypt ; Valley Arts Center ; Luiseño 0 3834 Future initiatives &#13 ; Tawfilis discusses her future plans which include writing books, finding a home for twelve miles of murals, and the Endangered Planet Foundation. History ; Murals ; Books ; Smithsonian ; Endangered Planet Foundation ; Cave Men ; Machu Pichu ; United States ; Expressing Emotion 0 4063 Final messages Tawfilis expresses her final thoughts, from acknowledging each other's differences in opinions, to never giving up on a goal like going to school. She also has one last moment to share her awards and how proud her father would be of her seeing her accomplishments. Opinions ; differences ; awards ; PhD ; Arlington National Cemetery ; Filipino ; North County 0 Joanne Tawfilis is the executive director of the Art Miles Mural Project, which has had the participation of over 500,000 people from 125 countries to paint murals. Tawfilis and her late husband Fouad started the Art Miles Mural Project after Tawfilis worked with orphans in Bosnia, where they created a murals using the only materials available -- a 10 gallon can of white wall pain and bedsheets riddled with bullet holes. The Art Miles Mural Project is currently homed at the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center in Oceanside, California, where there are electronic displays of over 5,000 murals, art classes, music, and spoken word performances. &#13 ; &#13 ; Tawfilis has had a storied career and has worked with the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Women of Srebrenica Project, and UNESCO. In her interview, Tawfillis discusses her career working as a civilian employee of the military, as well as her work with the United Nations, IAEA, and the Women of Srebrenica Project. Tawfilis also discusses the creation of the Art Miles Mural Project, the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, and her thoughts on art as a vehicle for healing, empathy, and peace. Linda Kallas: Today is October 31, 2022. I am Linda Kallas, and I am interviewing Joanne Tawfilis as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Thank you for joining me today, Joanne. Joanne Tawfilis: Thank you, Linda. Glad to be here. Kallas: It’s my pleasure. I’m going to give you some questions, and you’re going to answer them and to the best of your ability and we’ll just keep moving through the questions. Okay? Tawfilis: Okay, sounds good. Kallas: First of all, when and where were you born? Tawfilis: I was born in New London, Connecticut, and, um, a long time ago, (laughs) almost seventy-seven years. Kallas: And was your family an active part of any cultural communities where you grew up? Tawfilis: Actually, my family was one of the first Filipino American families in the town that I was born in. Um, we had a huge family, and then another family came and there was sort of a competition between the two families on, I think, who could have the most kids. Kallas: Oh! (chuckles) Tawfilis: And I think my dad won! (both Joanne and Linda laugh) Kallas: Um, so you didn’t grow up in North County. You moved here how many years ago? Tawfilis: Oh, it was—I moved here probably, um, in 1971, was when I first came to California. But then with my career I traveled all over the world, so I was back and forth on a regular basis. Uh, I had children and grandchildren here, and when I retired in the year 2000, I decided to settle here in paradise. (nods) Kallas: Nice. And how do you like living and working here since then? Tawfilis: Oh, I love San Diego County. Out of all the places I’ve ever been, I think that what I—I love the weather like everybody else, but it’s very multicultural, and, uh, makes life interesting that way. And grandchildren will always keep you where you are going to retire. Kallas: Um, do you feel like you’re part of the community? And do you have a support network? Tawfilis: I feel very much part of the community in many ways, but on―in some ways, no, because we’re—we’ve kind of discombobulated in this county where North County is kind of separated. But, I—my community is global, so it makes it a little bit interesting for me to try to be part of this community, despite the fact that I am, uh, running a multicultural center. Oceanside seems to be very focused on downtown and tourism, and, uh, I wanted to be here, even when I was downtown when we had our, um—it’s our studio and our center and our museum, the first mural museum in the world in Artists’ Alley. I—I thought we were really integrated into the community, but when—when I had to move out and come down here, it’s been a little different because we’re—we’re—we’re not considered you know neighborly, I think, is my—my feeling. We—we—we’re here. I love being part of being imbedded into the community, especially the indigenous community, because the Center was supposed to be focused on multiculturalism, with the focus on indigenous people. Kallas: Um, so prior to doing what you do now at the Mural Museum and the Art Miles, you had another whole career. Can you talk a little bit about that? Tawfilis: Yeah. I started out doing illustration work with the U.S. government, and when computers came out, they scared the heck out of me, being a non-technical person and being kind of a—I think, at that time, a very snobby artist (laughs), and then when people tell you what they want painted on, or drawn with specific directions, I had to question “Why, then, do you need me, if you’re not going to use my creative brain.” And the computer-generated art didn’t appeal to me because of that. Although now it’s grown into such a great variety of software programs, you can do almost anything, even with your own art. But as a young artist, I didn’t see it that way. So I worked for the military for most of my career in civil service, and then later on, combined my civil service career with the United Nations, and got to travel, a lot! Kallas: Um, so, some of the work—you want to talk about some of the work you did for the military, Civil Service department? Tawfilis: Yeah. After doing illustration, um, at the Submarine School in Connecticut, where we—where I was born, and my ex-husband was military, we traveled and that’s how I came—came to California. Um, and I worked really hard doing graphics here. Um, I rose in my career there to, to when the Bicentennial happened in, uh, 1975–76, the Navy and the country’s Bicentennial, and I got a little bit famous because I coordinated the whole military celebration down at the Broadway Pier , and things like that. And, then when, uh, uh, I went as far as I could, as far as a illustrator, was go—was my part of my career, and they started to do more and more graphics. I mean I worked at every military base in San Diego that you could think of. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then an opportunity came to become, uh, the first civilian and woman to be a, an international military training coordinator, and that’s how I got really involved with the international work, because the job was to be like a cultural, um, leader for the military people that came and their families, and setting up Friendship programs, and ex—not exchange programs, because these were, these were guys that were being trained on the equipment in the ships that we sold as part of the―what they call an international military exchange training program, I met and several others. So, I worked through all the bases doing that, and really loved, um, starting programs for the military and introducing them to American culture. And that was my real first experience, and getting international people to know the native cultures. And I did a lot of—I spent a lot of time down in San Diego, and Chicano Park, and I used to have the military, even the officers, lay down in the, the big, uh, like a pagoda―I’ve forgotten what you call it (chuckles), I think this is my senior moment―um, and look up to see the Inca and the Maya—Mayan civilization paintings, ‘cuz that’s where Chicano Park is sort of visualized and painted in amazing murals. And I did part of that on the bridge, the bridge stanchions that show how the Mexicans and the Spaniards came, and the farm workers came. And that was a lot of indigenous peoples from Mexico. And that got me interested. And then coming from Connecticut and New England where we had a lot of Native American tribes, a lot of international people ask about what happened to all the Indians in American culture? And a lot of—back then, a lot of international people only knew about cowboys and Indians, like most of us when we were growing up, you know, decades ago. And it also—it was very interesting to me because my minor in college was Native American Studies. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And that’s how I got introduced to it. But, you know, it was something that you think of academically, although it struck my heart because I was really angry at our educational system for not letting me know, among others, that where I grew up and lived most of my, you know, young adult life prior to college was Indian country. I mean, one of the thirteen colonies. And people don’t realize what kind of impact that had, has on people when you’re growing up. So, that affected my, my heart always. So, when I—in my career, I’ve always had that as a, I want to say, a big influence on what I’ve done to, to teach international people when I travel, both with the military and with the U.N. Kallas: Now, did the military send you to other countries as well? Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. I ended up—I started out doing, like I said, the international training stuff, but then I was on the base closure team, where my career went way up as far as getting higher promotions and better pay, and stuff like that. So I ended up, after doing base closures in most of the San Francisco Bay and Hawaii area, my territory was, I was one of twelve people that did the base closure studies. And then I had an opportunity—kind of as a fluke—to apply for an international job with the Army, and my supervisor and I both did it, um, as a—I don’t know, we just got a, a bug to say, “Oh, let’s see what happens if we apply to do what we’re doing here in the States, doing base closures.” And so, they offered her a job, and she turned it down. And they said “Oh well, the next person on the list is right in your office. Can we talk to her?” That was me! And so I ended up going to Germany. At the time I had been working for the Navy for over twenty years, in different positions like I said, from illustrator to management analyst, and working at foreign training and base closures. So then I ended up going to the Army in Germany, and that was, uh, right after, um, the Bicentennial had ended, and then I did a stint with—I took some time, and got, went on loan as a Vista volunteer, and went up to the Nespelem reservation in Colville, Kettle Falls area of Washington. I got really lucky cuz’ my hero was Chief Joseph (chuckles) and so I worked on that reservation in a parent aid program. But that’s another whole thing that maybe we could talk about later. Because going back to the military, I did this closing the bases in Europe and I became one of the heads of the base closure team there, and that’s how I got to travel to just about every European country there was. And, um, from there, I got recruited by the state department and through my federal military civilian job, went to work for the United Nations in, in Austria after the base closure job in Germany, that I went onward to, um, working on loan again. I went on loan from the Navy to the Army, from the Army to the International Atomic Energy Agency, and on loan again to the United Nations Environment Program in Nairobi. I mean there were jobs in between, but, and like I say that the stint I did at—I got to continue my career, even though I stopped working for the military for two years to work on, um, the Vista volunteer program. When Shriv—Sergeant Shriver started the Peace Corps, he also started the Vista volunteer program, which is now, I think, Americorps. So I was in that first round. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And then I went back to civil service and continued on, and onward to U.N. Kallas: And did they send you to, um, war torn countries, and where there was a lot of political unrest— Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. Kallas: —as a representative? Tawfilis: Yeah. When I went to, um—well, I could say my first stint overseas in Germany with the Army was when the wall came down. And I had just adopted two more children, and uh, I remember during that time the―when the wall came down, my kids were like, like—they were adopted from Mexico, and then—but they were Americans in a sense, so they were Mexican descent. And it was really interesting for them to learn German, so you see two little Mexicans speaking in German (chuckles). It was kind of cool. And, um, but the war torn part of it was―my job was because the war was over, the Cold War, and the wall came down, the government decided that’s why they wanted to close the bases because they didn’t need that anymore. We had so much military might invested in Germany because that was the actual front, that it made my job easy because the, the common sense of the economic support that they did for Europe, um, on the, well, it was called the front, made sense to start closing the bases. And so, I became a superstar, doing that, because I had people skills, so the generals that I worked for decided that it was great to have a woman civilian go give the commanding officers of the base the good news and the bad news that their base was going to be closed. And as a result of that, I was one of four women chosen to be, um, a member or take part in a study to decide whether civilians should become executive officers of military bases. So, they sent us to Army Management Staff College, and I was one of the four women that attended that. And so, the idea would be that I would become an executive officer of a military base so they could station military in the field. The problem with that is there’s no military that’s going to listen to a civilian as a boss. So, you can ask my son-in-law about that, ‘cuz he was Army. In fact, my daughter met him there in Germany. But, yeah, that was one. And then with the U.N., when I went to Africa, there’s all kinds of―I want to say―conflicts going on, including Somalia, Rwanda, during all that time, and so, yeah, I saw a lot. In fact, I was car-napped and my own personal safety was in danger there, not only from being exposed to so many people that were dying of AIDS, but because of the tribal—there’s like forty tribes in Nairobi alone and there were conflicts and a lot of cultural differences between the tribal people and a lot of, um, little―I want to say―mini wars going on and the political strife, and then of course, it was pretty bloody with Rwanda and then Somalia in that area. But I got to travel all over Africa, looking at—my job there was to consolidate the U.N. organizations in Nairobi and the base was called Gigiri, and, um, I got in trouble there, because I tried to support the local indigenous people with the financial area. So, if you want to talk about wars, and danger, and stuff like that, I think people think of shooting, you know, and bombs and stuff. But there’s other kind of wars, like economic ones. And I came up with this idea that civil service employees in international organizations should be cay—should be paid equally. But they have this system in the U.N. where local nationals are―have to go through a wage classification survey and they get the prevailing wage rate, whatever that country is. So, in other words, my secretary in Austria would get $3,000 a month, but my secretary in Nairobi would get $300 dollars a month. Kallas: Oh... Tawfilis: Yeah. And I just didn’t think that made sense, working with the U.N. So, it was kind of a battle there, and I think that was the biggest war for me, is trying to help the local nationals. And I did some―I want to say―out of the ordinary things, like promoting them when other people went out on mission they would hire people to come in and pay them exorbitant amounts of money, including me, because I, I was on a stipend on a daily basis, in addition to my very high salary. But the work was done by the local people. I think that happens everywhere, that the real worker bees don’t get recognized for the, all the work that they do, and they carry on the mission of whatever that country’s, you know, objectives are. And so, I think that’s one of the reasons I got car-napped, because I had a big mouth and I actually wrote a book about how to flatten the United Nations. So, they sent me back. I was on loan from the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna, Austria to Africa, and because I tried to help the local people, I think I wasn’t going to go much further, after ten years, you know, working for the U.N. So, that was my personal battle when you talk about wars, and dangerous things. I mean, when you get to the point where they don’t want you to talk―and it wasn’t the U.N. that did it―it was a person that probably wanted the job that I had―that arranged for this kidnapping or car-napping that I survived. So… Kallas: So, you also, um, had spent time in Bosnia during that— Tawfilis: Yeah, at the end of my career— Kallas: —that was after all the— Tawfilis: with—I was getting ready to retire and, uh, because I was on loan as a very high-ranked civilian, the only place they could put me would be the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. and I didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. I’d been at the headquarters many times with my job with the Army. I did a lot of stuff for the Army, like I said. And I really didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. So, they gave me a choice of going to Bosnia and working with the widows at Srebrenica, at the end of the conflict in the Balkans between the―where Yugoslavia had broken up. And I went on an interview sponsored by the Clinton Foundation to be the Director of the Bosnian Women’s Initiative or what they—most people know as the Widows of Srebrenica, where at some point they gathered the Bosnian women together―and I should say the Bosnian families together―in their village called Srebrenica which was a safe haven. And unfortunately it wasn’t a very well protected safe haven, and on July tenth and eleventh in 197―uh, 1995, the Serbs came in and gave the people ten minutes to come outside, and they put the women on one side of the street, women and children under fourteen and old people, real old people, and then they put the men and boys on the other side and then they took all the women, put them on buses and sent them to a village in the mountains, in Tuzla. And the men disappeared. They found some mass graves. They found some bodies in a forest where they were―tried to run away, I guess, some of the men. And, but they never found the whole―I would say, whole group of the over six to seven thousand. They, they suspect―there’s a lot of theories, and a lot of books written about it. But my job was to work with the women and help them do economic development and to heal and to also help identify bodies and get all their data because they had no pictures of their families. They had, you know, all this stuff that they—they left with nothing. And then to try to help reconciliation between the three entities, and I ended up, you know, working my, my heart and my head off, because working with people who have lost everything and witnessed the destruction of their country and their families getting killed and murdered and their men disappearing, and these were mostly farm women that didn’t even know how to write their name. So, I think I worked harder in my life those three or four years that I was there doing everything from gathering information to help put the war crimes together because these people were still on the loose. And then throughout the years, the military would find them and capture the war crime perpetrators and bring them to the Hague and they were imprisoned, and some of them—I won’t name names—passed away in prison before they could be tried. But it was terrible trying to identify remains with the women. Maybe it would be just shreds of a shirt but they recognized their husbands. And then having all that emotional—I think I have a whole book of stories I could write about their suffering. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: But because of that, I was encouraged to go work in the orphanage and there three hundred fifty orphans. I have a TED talk online, TED-X from Orange Coast College. And, it was―it’s called “Painting Outside the Lines.” I also have one from UCSD “Stem to Steam” because I put the art part in there. But back to the Bosnian situation and I guess as the point of my career that changed my life that we were going to talk about, because when I saw what the children had gone through and I―they―they told me—you were getting— I was getting very depressed, and they said “you need to go work in this orphanage.” So, the three hundred fifty orphans from all three entities, but they had not found or located all families. So, some of the kids had no survivors. I understand that most of them they were able to place them years later. But while I was there, my―my, uh, free time, if you want to call it free time, was to go and work with these kids to do art. And then after about three months of just sketching and coloring and stuff, they asked if they could make a very big painting and I interpreted that as a mural. And so if you―you’ll hear on the TED talk, how we found bed sheets in a closet that were full of sort of darned holes and the―they explained to me that the young ladies in Europe learn how to sew, which we did away with here in the United States. But there they sew everything. So, when they pulled out the sheets, and they had all these little stitches, and some still had holes, I, when I asked them what the holes were about, they said “Well, this used to be a hospital, and it was bombed. So these were from the shells and the shrapnel that, that, you know, made holes in the walls and the bedding and the whole bit of the ugly hospital beds over there.” So, what I did was the Army had left a 10-gallon pan―pail of white flat, white wall paint and I, I had them sew two sheets together and I put masking tape on the back where I thought there were the least amount of holes and then I just painted. I put a whole bunch of newspaper, and in the morning it turned into a very stiff canvas! So, we had a canvas and the kids got very excited. Every time I think about their faces when they saw that, and then it was like “Oh, we’ve got to paint that whole thing?” You know… Kallas: So, that’s when your two careers intersected, so you kind of went back to— Tawfilis: Right. Kallas: roots, and— Tawfilis: And I got to do art, right? So, but what changed my life were the, the children and the oldest one was about eighteen and then they had a little eighteen or nineteen-month-old baby in there, and they divided the kids up into groups of five. And they took two older, mostly teens, and then three younger kids, so they could take care of each other, ‘cuz they only had five people running this whole orphanage. There was psychologist, and then the other four were caregivers, and they cooked for them, and made sure that they were, you know, trying to keep them busy. There were—I don’t even think they had formal education for them, because there was nothing. And they were just being protected and fed, and trying—and I think doing the art was a real important thing in their lives. So, how my life changed was, the kids started—I said “you have to decide what you want to paint.” So, what they—I had them do, is I said “Draw something that you want on this canvas.” So, they all did it, and I still have some of the sketches. I should have brought some. But they, they, they had to come up with an idea that would go on the canvas. So, we looked at all the drawings and they started forming this dialogue and they started talking to each other. And you have to understand these kids were very depressed themselves, and they had these real— Kallas: Traumatized. Tawfilis: Yeah. They were all traumatized and they were kind of afraid of each other when they were—they knew that one was a Serb, and one was a Croat, and one was Bosnian. And they didn’t―they matched them up by age, not so much by what sect of religion they belonged to. So, and in children weren’t so attuned, maybe the older ones were a little bit more conscious of their religious differences, whatever. But in the discussions that they were doing, they started talking about the trauma that they had gone through. And some of the kids knew each other from the different villages that they had come from. And I found myself going outside, crying myself, because they started talking about what they saw, what they felt. And even now, when I think about it, it’s still—it burns a hole in your heart, but it —I wondered how this was going to work. And I’d go back in, and then they decided on a theme. And what was happening is they were going through a catharsis themselves, and they ended up with coming up with the theme “Yesterday and Tomorrow.” And the Yesterday section of this one―I guess we would call it a triptych in our art language, Yesterday, they did sketches of houses that had no roofs, ‘cuz they’d blown up. Airplanes dropping bombs, and then because the women were wearing kerchiefs because they were Bosnian Muslim, they had their heads covered. There, a lot of the little drawings had little pictures of women lined up, going, and they remembered having to come out of the houses in Srebrenica and line up on the other side of the street. So you saw ―you would see sketches of that, and dragons, and just ugly things that they, fires, things burning. And then the middle section where they had put the groups of five together, they drew their little new families, which was really cute. Kallas: That’s awesome. TAWFILIS: And then on the third panel was, were flowers and clowns and balloons and stuff like that. So they called it “Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow.” So after five days of going through that, I can say that was a life changer for me, and, and I was telling my husband about it, and we, we made that first mural, and he was in the process of constructing a new building, me, a gallery, and we called it Avenida de Los Artistas. So, we had a Spanish name in a German country, speaking country in Austria. We started , he started doing murals, or I started it on the wall, one of the walls of the museum that was being built, at the gallery. So, when I’d go back home, we were making murals, and after about a hundred of them we said “we should make this a project.” Because the latch kids would be coming, then the schools started sending kids over. So we turned it into a project, and actually Foulad, my husband, was the man who came up with the idea of calling it “Art Mile.” We didn’t know it was going to turn into twelve miles! But that’s how it started. And then at one point I met a professor from Wesleyan University, and I did some murals. The very first mural we did outside of Bosnia was in Austria. And then on one of my trips back to Connecticut, I met this professor from Wesleyan, and we did one at the university there. And he said “You need to tell the U.N. about your project.” And, so, there are lots of things going on, wars, conflicts all over. And so the United Nations had set up a program called the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And it was founded by Ambassador Chaudry of the U.N. who was at the time Under Secretary General for small developing nations and island nations. And he had written the resolution to start this International Decade from 2001 to the end of 2010. And so my husband and I had this crazy idea of going to New York and getting him to support it as a U.N. project. And at the same time, the son, the grandson of Jacques Cousteau heard about us, and said “I’d love to see what you’re doing. Maybe you should do murals about the sea.” So he flew from London and met us at the famous hotel in New York, and I was, while I was there to meet Ambassador Chaudry and said he would love to see us do murals about the oceans and the sea and the water. And at that time he was at grad school, I believe. And so our very first celebrity fan was Phillipe Cousteau, the son of Phillipe Cousteau, who passed away in a plane crash. He was one of the two sons of Jacques Cousteau. So we went on to the U.N. and just unrolled five canvases, one of them was done in Nairobi, and it went all the way down the hallway, cuz they were five feet by twelve feet, so we had almost fifty feet of canvas going down the hallway and Ambassador Chaudry’s office took up a whole floor of People in the U.N. building and they all came and looked at it and they all fell in love with the project. And that’s when we got his support and endorsement, and we started doing murals. And now we’ve got over twelve miles of murals from all over the world, which many of them are right here in this building. And our headquarters is in North County and Oceanside. Kallas: And that is called? Tawfilis: The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center. We had it set up as the first mural museum in the world, and for people who don’t know the word “Muramid” comes from murals that were being constructed into a pyramid which we had set up a project. My husband came up with the design and he did the photography of over a thousand murals and did them in miniature because we were going to create the Muramid Pyramid at the great Pyramids in Giza. And at the time, we had also, I had retired. We had moved to Egypt. We have a home there. And my husband spent a lot of time and a lot of money. What we called Back Cheese, with the paying under the table to the Minister of Education, Minister of Culture, to do a fourth pyramid to be constructed with piping, I don’t know if they call it, it wasn’t the PPV―PVC piping, it was metal. And he designed that. And then a company here in Oceanside―not Oceanside,―in Irvine, “Supercolor Photo,” were kind enough to make the model and take my husband’s design of the miniature murals and make a cover. And we were able to have a ten-foot model that we were going, we used in several places. In fact, we have ten models all over the world right now, including Japan. And we participated in international conferences and things like that. And the whole idea was to have, to have (someone enters the room, off camera) I thought I locked the door, sorry. Anyway, the whole idea was at the end of 2010 we would have this celebration to commemorate the closing of the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And then, what happened was, because we had so many conflicts we ended up with a second decade, which ended at the end of 2021. Kallas: Now all of your—you have twelve themes for your Art Miles. Tawfilis: Mm-hmm. Kallas: Can you share a little bit about that, and what, what people gained from doing these murals? Tawfilis: Sure. The first thing that we did was Peace, Unity, and Healing. And then we ended up with the Women, because the women’s influence on art and healing. That’s where the healing part came in. And you know when you think about peace, unity, and healing, then you talk about women and their role in it. And then we started environment, because everybody started complaining, and worrying about climate change. And as you know, that has a subject that has increased so many, so much all over the world. And it’s happening. We’re all experiencing that. And then we started doing murals in response to every human and natural disaster. That’s even when 9/11 happened in 2001, it was a big deal and we did, like, many murals and actually exhibited some of them on, at Ground Zero. We were there, doing the mural, at Georgetown University on September 11. And we got sequestered into the hotel that we were staying at, because we were doing a Children’s Environmental Health Network thing. But anyway, back to the themes, so that’s how the environment started. We, the third one was Children’s Environmental Health Network where they actually did a film about us there. And while we were doing that, we ended up being, watching the Twin Towers come down. And then from there we started Children’s and then Fairytale and then Sports and Music, and so now we have Hero and we had—then we started the Japanese government, or I should say our Japanese team started doing an exchange program. They called it, they call it the International Intercultural Mural Exchange where they do half of a mural in Japan and the other half in another country, with another school. So, there’s four hundred forty murals for each themed. They’re all, not all five by twelve, some of them are half sized. But our goal was to at least get to twelve miles, and then in 2008 we attempted to break the Guinness Book of World Records. But three weeks before that, we found out that the United Arab Emirates had already done that with the longest mural in the world. And we couldn’t surpass it, because they, they would, they did like ten-mile, not ten miles, ten murals more than us. But, even the, the grand master, whatever they call them, that comes to do the, to officiate measurements stuff, said ours weren’t connected , and they want a continuous theme. So, what the, what happened with the United Arab Emirates, they did, they did, I think at that time, like four miles, about women, and it was done for International Women’s Day and they featured the, all the children. And all the schools did murals about the sheikah, or the queen, I guess. And then they had to burn it, because it was done on paper, and Islam doesn’t allow images. So, but they did break the record. Plus, it cost ten thousand dollars to bring the guy over, and we didn’t have that kind of money. We still don’t have that kind of money, because we do it all from our hearts, very few donations. Kallas: And can you talk a little bit of how the initial concept of murals has evolved over the years, compared to where you started in Bosnia, and to where you are right now with the murals. Tawfilis: Yeah. I think the biggest change is education. We found that education has come to the forefront because whenever, whatever thing you’re working on, it teaches you something, you know, whether it’s fairy tales that are originally thought of by children and from their imaginations or sports. There are―you learn what the sport’s all about. Music, the same thing. We’ve even had music murals created while people are looking at a mural and they write music about it. And then, or vice versa. Or when it’s in the indigenous mile. At one time we presented a—because I was in Connecticut at the time, we had someone present the idea of doing—we discovered there were five hundred fifty recognized tribes. And so they did a resolution at the National Congress of American Indians, NCAI, that each tribe would contribute a mural. But we got so busy, and then my husband passed away. We have never followed up on that. I don’t know how long those resolutions last. But I would love to revive it. But since that time, I’ve also discovered there’s a whole bunch of non-recognized tribes. And I think that has appealed to me more, because I feel like, how could you not recognize a tribe? I don’t care. I know that there, their requirements have DNA and numbers of members and whether they have a reservation or whatever. But, it’s not accounting, some of the tribes don’t get credit for just being there, and being there first. And they were decimated by whatever colonial tribe or―how would I say―shouldn’t be―that’s the wrong word―colonial influence that came in and took over those lands, even in our own wars, in the Civil War. Even before that, they, you know, the genocide of Native Americans is something that most Americans don’t even know about. They don’t even know about there’s so many tribes in every country that they went through the same thing. You know, the genocide of every African nation. There’s thirty-three countries in Africa! And most Americans don’t know that. There―you could go there, and you could say “The Dutch took over this country. The Italians did this country. The Brits did this.” You know. And they left their influence, but they also started slavery, and brought it here. And then―and I think that’s why there is a bond between a lot of Native Americans. When you―one thing I’ve even discovered more of later in my life is how Native Americans helped so many slaves, you know, following the Civil War. Protected them, and hid them, and intermarried, and that’s why there’s a lot of controversy among white people about―they had this concept the Indians were “red.” First of all, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a red person, or a yellow Chinese person, or maybe caramel, like me. (both she and Linda chuckle) And when you think of black, kids in school when you say “These are Africans.” They use black crayons or black paint. There are some very black people, I think. Some countries have all shades. India has black India people from East India. And Senegal people mostly are darker than most, you know. But there’s also a whole shades, hues of people. But like Aki, our drummer, says “Inside we all have red blood. We all have bones.” You know, and when we all die, you can’t tell, maybe by the―anthropologists will tell you about the skulls and the framework and stuff like that. But color? No. Religion, you know, that’s another thing. So, the other—to get back to your question. The other evolution has been healing. I think the focus now is more on healing, because we have so much―what’s the word―conflicts around the world. And then personal violence going on with school shootings and the massive massacres with massive killings all over and accidents and natural disasters, with hurricanes and floods. Right here in California, the fires, right here! They came right up to the back door here, you know. And if you drive up through the mountains going to, to go buy a pie, you’re going to find out. You drive through all the reservation areas and you see where the fires from the past―you see those still the black, some of the trees, and there’s a big contrast with the silhouettes of those trees and then the―now the overgrown greenery. It’s so beautiful, and you know, things like that. So, healing has made a big difference, because when people―and what I’m really, I think, what I’d like to share in this interview with you―is that healing isn’t just the murals that we send to the people who have been become victims and their families of those who were killed or injured in these horrible violent events or disasters. It’s us, ourselves. When each school shooting happens, how many parents and people with a heart feel that pain, of, of—I can’t—every time I hear of a school shooting, I think of those poor little kids, and I grieve for them and for their families and for the friends and the neighbors that were there. And my first exposure to that was actually the, the widows watching those children, and then 9/11 when the Red Cross had murals being done all over. We have some amazing murals that came from all over the country and the world, displaying their feelings. And one of them, one of the ones that stands out in my mind, is Hope, Alaska did one. And it, the whole mural is the word “Hope” but inside the word “Hope” they drew people, and a lot of native and indigenous people are in that. And then, when Sandy Hook happened from my, where I’m from, Connecticut, I went there, and to see those little children, you know. How can anybody go in and kill all those little tiny kindergarten kids, and the teachers? And then what people don’t know there’s, in America, there’s a place called Beslan, near Russia, where the radicals, and the— Kallas: Government was involved in― Tawfilis: Yeah, over two hundred people, two hundred kids and teachers killed. And then again, recently, you know, I mean we could go on and on. And every time we did a mural, it was like once or twice a year, and now, I mean, I think in July we had three shootings , and, you know, things we had to respond to. And actually, I’m behind! We haven’t been able to do, Massa from the, Mahsa Imani―Amini, from the―from Iran, because we’re so busy. We just finished Ukraine, you know. There’s just, St. Louis. All this stuff keeps happening. So, healing! Kallas: So, part of your process in dealing with this tragedy is there’s a healing element for you to respond to those through a mural. And you send those murals to those places, correct? Tawfilis: Yeah. And we’ve been lucky. Sometimes we hear back, and sometimes we don’t. Because you can’t expect everybody, every city and town, to say “Oh, gosh, all these people.” You know, people send food and clothing. And a lot of people do art and murals and flowers and, and stuff like that. So, I know, you know, part of giving, what people don’t understand is we give and we do murals from our heart. We don’t expect a lot in return. What I expect is when people paint a mural to send that they are sharing that same emotion that I feel that they want people to know that we’re thinking of them, and that we’re sending our prayers and good wishes. I know people think that a lot of non-governmental organizations do things for money. Well, we’re, we’re a great example of “No” (laughs), because― Kallas: Non-profit. Tawfilis: Yeah, we are a true non-profit. And my husband and I and a lot of people have contributed. We don’t have an overhead staff that we, we pay for. We can’t. We just don’t, you know. Thank goodness we have good―there’s so many―I focus on the good people and the good things that come. If I started thinking about what I have or what I don’t, you know, what I don’t have, with other organizations that get grants, and they have sponsors and philanthropists look at them, I would never be able to do what I do. At this age, I’m just now starting―we have a Foundation that we’re working on, and my goal is to finally, if I realize it, if I want to have a legacy in the name, in the memory of my husband who gave up his career, and out of my true care and I say, I want to say concern for people who are suffering, and indigenous people, I think that’s why I want it here. That’s what brought my here. I think the Creator, whoever your Creator is, my Creator is a number of spiritual things, that I saw this place that we’re sitting in right now before we opened the Muramid and Artists Alley. And my husband said “It’s too small. It looks like a house!” And it was full of crazy stuff that had been here before. So, it was neglected and smelly. It didn’t have high ceilings when we peeked in the windows, and he, he just kind of passed it on. But, something called out to me in this place. And I remember driving around one day after I knew I had to leave Artists Alley, because he passed away. I hadn’t, didn’t have the infrastructure and the help that I do now with Aki and his drumming and neighbors and friends and people that have helped put this thing together. I remember driving around and it still had a For Rent style on here―sign―and I parked the car and I called the guy and the property manager. And it was still in the same shape that it had been, I guess, six years before. So, this place had been empty for a while. I think maybe something might have happened in between, but I doubt it, because judging from when we did get inside, and there was a lot of feces, dead animals, all kinds of stuff. But I can feel this place. When we took down the ceiling, because it was that―what do they call it―insulation hanging down, and I looked at the wood, and I realized “Wow, this place was here a long time ago.” I didn’t know the history of the place, but I’ve been told it was the original general store for the Mission. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then when I found out about the Mission and, you know, being a Catholic, in a former life, I thought “Wow, this is pretty cool!” Then I remember reading, like other things in Connecticut, that there were people here before the Mission came, and I got really passionate about “I’m going to put it right there.” And I want to dedicate the place to the Luiseño, because I found out that they are the people that this belongs to. And everybody that comes in the door, every single person, I can’t think of one that hasn’t come in the door for the first time and goes “Wow! This place, it has such great karma. It feels warm and friendly, and it’s inviting and it’s good to be in here and it’s so creative.” And I went (claps her hands together) “Yes! That’s what we’re all about.” And so, I think we are an important piece of the history of this place because I feel like an archive in here, of some sort. And the Mural Project has found its home, and I think that’s an important part of being the history up here in the North County, to have a project that’s global in scope that has been participated in by over a half a million people from over a hundred countries. To land in a place that is based on what everybody should know about indigenous communities. My hope is that―and I started out with my husband and I both said, you know, before we wanted to feature different cultures, because we felt that Americans weren’t quite educated enough to understand the diversity and the richness of cultures from other people, and other countries, including this country, you know. There’s so many―and I don’t want to use the term “white”―but there’s a lot of American, white people who don’t understand that they came here from other countries as well. And in their own country, if they look back in their roots, they’ll find out that they come in different shades as well. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And that the stolen land―you know, recently I watched a documentary about Alabama where the last slave ship came in and it was against the law to even bring slaves after 1860 or something like that. But it was one ship’s captain who said “I can show you how to do it, and I’m going to prove it.” And he did it out of rebellion and brought a hundred and twenty slaves from Africa, made them get off the ship, near Mobile, Alabama, and in the water, the swamp, they got on to the land. I understand they stayed there for a few weeks and then they divided them into three different plantations. But they burned that ship in that. They said they wanted to get rid of the evidence. Well, that was a genocide in and off itself, of history. And now after four hundred years or whatever, they’re finding all these remnants. You can go anywhere, even here. When we started doing the back, we found a cross in the yard that, that must have been buried in the ground from whatever was here before. And I always wondered what happened and what’s going on with all this gentrification and the new building over there. It hurts my heart. And I talked to a Luiseño member who is one of our drummers, a woman, she said “every time she goes by” and she’s a school bus driver, she said “it hurts my heart.” Because she knows there’s another thing covering it up and erasing part of the history of this place. And I’m really sorry that, you know, recently the newspaper said “the wave just got approved with the valley over there, and the rest of the valley. And I live in a place that I look at that, and I, I could cry just thinking about it. Right across the street from Pablo Tac Elementary School. They’re going to build a wave park like we need one so close to the ocean? I mean, come on. Commercialization is just really destroying the natural history of many places including right here where we live. So, I’m hoping that the owner of the properties here will never let this place become that wave even though I can see a beautiful little old town here. You know, I like to see more cultural things happen here. And I’d love to see the cultural district expand from downtown to where the real history is here. I mean, uh, it’s to me almost sinful that we don’t put more emphasis on what the history of this area, of Oceanside, is all about. It’s all on the front, at the waterfront. It’s all commercial. They even destroyed the waterfront in my eyes, by putting all that, the hotels and stuff. Kallas: Well, in trying to put it all together here, in breadth and in depth is community building. Tawfilis: Correct. Kallas: Through the murals, through the other work you’ve done. It seems to be the main theme of your life, and now you have the Center. And doesn’t it also have something to do with UNESCO? Tawfilis: Yes! We recently became the UNESCO Center for Peace for all of California and Baja. And with that I think will help enhance my opportunity and all the people that work with us to bring more cultural education and healing to this area, and to educate people about what real peace begins with me, and our neighbors and our families. And then, you know, I know this all sounds very philosophical but it’s true, you know. And, um, I think we have a pretty good mayor who supports local people more than others that I’ve seen. Maybe it’s because I see her out there in the community more than I’ve seen other mayors do. And I know that she is of Mexican descent, but I also believe that Mexicans have a lot of indigenous people here as well. Kallas: Right. Tawfilis: And when I talk about Mexicans, I don’t mean that they are the invaders of the people that took over. They too have been, you know, victims of genocide. All this belonging to part of that. But the first people here from all the history that I have been able to do my own research on, were the Luiseños. And so, my passion and dedication is going to be based on that. I am going to be looking at other cultures and introducing the people of the world to our local community through this center. But this is―This year, the Valley Arts Festival will feature my dedication to that. As I have this painting behind me. It’s kind of weird that we have this Mexican lady, native, behind me, and then my dancer, and then I am going to do a dedicated mural to the Spirit of the Valley, and to the tribal captain and a woman who happens to be his sister who I think is, in my eyes, the official historian of just about everything that could ever happen to the Luiseños here. And I feel very fortunate, um, coming from where I do, and what I did in Connecticut with the Mashantucket Pequots to see them grow and have the best museum in my eyes, in the whole world, indigenous or otherwise because it’s interactive. To be with people that are still alive that I can talk to and interact with that live right here in this community. So… Kallas: So, going forward, what, um, what other projects are on the horizon for you. Tawfilis: Well― Kallas: Besides what you just talked about, are there other avenues that you’re going to pursue? Tawfilis: Oh, thank you for asking. Because one way of documenting history is books. So, I’m writing, actually there’ll be four books that I hope will be coming from me. But interacting with other people, we’re doing, taking the murals now, what am I going to do with twelve miles of murals? My goal is to convince the Smithsonian that they need to take these, because to me it’s a visual documentation of two decades or more of history by the people and for the people. This is their words, not some author who wrote a book about the history of something. It’s from all over the world, and it addresses social issues everywhere. So, what I’m hoping to do is we have a Foundation that we’re going to be―we are part of, called the Endangered Planet Foundation, and our project will, will be embracing that and taking the mural images and trying to create practical products from the mural images and raising money through the sales of textiles and books and things like that, tangible things that can go into a fund that will keep this project going, and long after I’m gone. Hopefully until then I can help form a solid board and we can end up hiring a staff which we’ve never had, to carry on this project, because I think it’s something that can continue. Mural art has been growing all over the world. The cave men have come a long way from their images to creating murals not just on walls but on canvas and ours is mobile. I wanted to have a voice for people that could be shared, not stuck on a wall that you’re never going to― I’m maybe some people will never get to Machu Pichu or to the Egyptian temples and pyramids or caves where we have here in the United States with etchings and things on them. So, this way we can bring people closer together. So that’s the future, is I want to leave a legacy and because I know what works. What other non-profit organization can survive for almost twenty-five years with no money? I’ll tell you why. Because people believe in it, and we believe in it with all our hearts and souls. And, as nearing my seventy-seventh birthday, I bypassed seventy-five because of Covid. I think we have proof in the pudding, so, yeah, that’s the plan, is to continue. Kallas: And speaking from personal experience, I’ve actually experienced the healing process and that sense of community where we’re all working on the same thing at the same time. There’s just so much unity in that and it’s very, you could really internalize that. Tawfilis: Well you know the big―bottom line is mural art gives you a chance to express yourself even with a group, because as you know doing quilt, we do that kind of style with murals as well, in different forms or whatever. You get to express yourself individually but you do it with a group and it brings you all closer together, and in doing so you talk to each other, and the bottom line is you find out how much more we have in common than we have in differences. Which sounds like a cliché, but boy it’s true. Kallas: It’s very true. Tawfilis: We actually do it. And we make ourselves, I mean, better people because we get to know and appreciate other people’s opinions, even if we don’t agree with them. We hear what they’re thinking and feeling, and we learn a lot from each other. And I think that’s how peace is going to happen, when we begin to open our minds and our hearts to understanding that we’re different but we all have the same basic common needs. We all want to eat. We all want to be able to have a home over our heads and feel safe. And the richness of having other cultures influencing your life―it’s like if you’re only going to eat American hot dogs and hamburgers, what a boring life that would be, right? (Linda laughs) I always think of it simplistically like that because you end up going “Gee, I like Thai food. I like Chinese food. I like Italian food. Whatever.” Well, that comes from people, you know. And so, the blend and the magic of seeing the dancing from, and the music, the different forms of music, and you can be native American and play rock-n-roll music. I happen to know somebody who can do that and do it well. Or a Filipino that can sing beautiful, musical songs. Or the homeless people with the choir that was started right here from North County. I mean I think that’s a great, you know, cultural contribution to history. So. Kallas: Well, Joanne, thank you so much. It’s been an honor and a privilege to do this interview with you. And I want to repeat something I recently told a mutual friend about you, that I truly think you are a work of art. Tawfilis: Oh, my goodness. Kallas: And I just thank you so much. Tawfilis: Well, thank you. And I also want to say that I did get a PhD at the age of 71. So, my message to all those who think that you never learned and you can’t earn a degree as you get older, you’re wrong. You can get it, and mine was honorary, and I’m really proud of it now because I used to think―I’m very humble about it because I do understand how much hard work goes in to doing a dissertation. I almost got there. I could have done that, but I traveled so much I couldn’t finish. But understanding that when you do a life’s work dedicated to something, I think it’s deserved. I’m saying that today for the first time, that looking back on my career, I did earn it. Kallas: Yes, you did. Tawfilis: And I’m very happy that my, if my dad were alive and I received a big award when I retired. I got the highest award you could get as a civilian and they gave me miniature medal. It’s from the military. As well as a big one. And when I went to Arlington I put that miniature beneath my dad’s cross at Arlington National Cemetery. And I, when I got my PhD, my first trip to Washington, D.C., afterwards I went directly there, and I told my dad “Guess what, dad? You wanted me to get an education, and I got a Ph.D.” Kallas: Wow, what a great note to close on. Thank you again. I really appreciate this. Tawfilis: Thank you. (Looking off camera to someone else) Did I put you to sleep? Unknown male voice: No, that’s a wrap. GLOSSARY: Aki (pg.11,12) Ambassador Chaudry (pg.8) Americorps (pg.4) Arlington National Cemetery (pg.16) Army Management Staff College (pg.4) Artist’s Alley (pg.2) Art Miles (pg.2,8) Back Cheese (pg.9) Base closure team (pg.3) Besan (near Russia) (pg.11) Bosnian Women’s Initiative (pg.5) Broadway Pier (pg.2) Chicano Park (pg.3) Chief Joseph (pg.3) Children’s Environmental Health Network (pg.9) Colville (pg.3) Endangered Planet Foundation (pg.15) Foulad (pg.8) Friendship Program (pg.2) Gigiri (pg.5) International Atomic Energy Agency (pg.4,5) International Decade for the Culture of Peace (pg.8,9) International Intercultural Mural Exchange (pg.10) Kettle Falls (pg.3) Luiseño (pg.13,14) Mahsa Amini (pg.12) Mashantucket Pequots (pg.14) Mural Museum (pg.2) Muramid Arts and Cultural Center (pg.9) Muramid Pyramid (pg.9) National Congress of American Indians (pg.10) Nespelem (pg.3) Orange Coast College (pg.6) Pablo Tac Elementary School (pg.14) “Painting Outside the Lines” (pg.6) Peace, Unity, Healing (pg.9) Sergeant Shriver (pg.4) Srebrenica (pg.5) “Stem to Steam” (pg.6) Submarine School (pg.2) Supercolor Photo (pg.9) Tuzla (pg.6) UNESCO Center for Peace (pg.14) United Nation Environment Program, Nairobi (pg.4) Vista Volunteer Program (pg.4) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_access.xml TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tawfilis, Joanne. Interview October 31, 2022. Description An account of the resource Joanne Tawfilis is the executive director of the Art Miles Mural Project, which has had the participation of over 500,000 people from 125 countries to paint murals. Tawfilis and her late husband Fouad started the Art Miles Mural Project after Tawfilis worked with orphans in Bosnia, where they created a murals using the only materials available -- a 10 gallon can of white wall pain and bedsheets riddled with bullet holes. The Art Miles Mural Project is currently homed at the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center in Oceanside, California, where there are electronic displays of over 5,000 murals, art classes, music, and spoken word performances. Tawfilis has had a storied career and has worked with the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Women of Srebrenica Project, and UNESCO. In her interview, Tawfillis discusses her career working as a civilian employee of the military, as well as her work with the United Nations, IAEA, and the Women of Srebrenica Project. Tawfilis also discusses the creation of the Art Miles Mural Project, the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, and her thoughts on art as a vehicle for healing, empathy, and peace. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-052 Subject The topic of the resource Art Miles Project Bosnian Women's Initiative International Atomic Energy Agency Military base closures Mural painting and decoration Muramid Art and Cultural Center (Oceanside, Calif.) Orphanages--Bosnia and Herzegovina Srebrenica Massacre, Srebrenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1995 Unesco United States. Army United States. Navy Women artists Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-31 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joanne Tawfilis Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Linda Kallas Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceanside (Calif.) Srebrenica (Bosnia and Herzegovina) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joanne Tawfilis License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Activists and activism Art and artists Community history North County Oral History Initiative Politics and governance Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/650df26fcebb5e908a3a6386a0e71713.pdf 91b6788af9d667a1f9d0118bd55f634c PDF Text Text TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 Transcript Linda Kallas: Today is October 31, 2022. I am Linda Kallas, and I am interviewing Joanne Tawfilis as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Thank you for joining me today, Joanne. Joanne Tawfilis: Thank you, Linda. Glad to be here. Kallas: It’s my pleasure. I’m going to give you some questions, and you’re going to answer them and to the best of your ability and we’ll just keep moving through the questions. Okay? Tawfilis: Okay, sounds good. Kallas: First of all, when and where were you born? Tawfilis: I was born in New London, Connecticut, and, um, a long time ago, [laughs] almost seventy-seven years. Kallas: And was your family an active part of any cultural communities where you grew up? Tawfilis: Actually, my family was one of the first Filipino American families in the town that I was born in. Um, we had a huge family, and then another family came and there was sort of a competition between the two families on, I think, who could have the most kids. Kallas: Oh! [chuckles] Tawfilis: And I think my dad won! [both Joanne and Linda laugh] Kallas: Um, so you didn’t grow up in North County. You moved here how many years ago? Tawfilis: Oh, it was—I moved here probably, um, in 1971, was when I first came to California. But then with my career I traveled all over the world, so I was back and forth on a regular basis. Uh, I had children and grandchildren here, and when I retired in the year 2000, I decided to settle here in paradise. [nods] Kallas: Nice. And how do you like living and working here since then? Tawfilis: Oh, I love San Diego County. Out of all the places I’ve ever been, I think that what I— I love the weather like everybody else, but it’s very multicultural, and, uh, makes life interesting that way. And grandchildren will always keep you where you are going to retire. Kallas: Um, do you feel like you’re part of the community? And do you have a support network? Tawfilis: I feel very much part of the community in many ways, but on―in some ways, no, because we’re—we’ve kind of discombobulated in this county where North County is kind of separated. But, I—my community is global, so it makes it a little bit interesting for me to try to be part of this community, despite the fact that I am, uh, running a multicultural center. Oceanside seems to be very focused on downtown and tourism, and, uh, I wanted to be here, even when I was downtown when we had our, um—it’s our studio and our center and our 1 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 museum, the first mural museum in the world in Artists’ Alley. I—I thought we were really integrated into the community, but when—when I had to move out and come down here, it’s been a little different because we’re—we’re—we’re not considered you know neighborly, I think, is my—my feeling. We—we—we’re here. I love being part of being imbedded into the community, especially the indigenous community, because the Center was supposed to be focused on multiculturalism, with the focus on indigenous people. Kallas: Um, so prior to doing what you do now at the Mural Museum and the Art Miles, you had another whole career. Can you talk a little bit about that? Tawfilis: Yeah. I started out doing illustration work with the U.S. government, and when computers came out, they scared the heck out of me, being a non-technical person and being kind of a—I think, at that time, a very snobby artist [laughs], and then when people tell you what they want painted on, or drawn with specific directions, I had to question “Why, then, do you need me, if you’re not going to use my creative brain.” And the computer-generated art didn’t appeal to me because of that. Although now it’s grown into such a great variety of software programs, you can do almost anything, even with your own art. But as a young artist, I didn’t see it that way. So I worked for the military for most of my career in civil service, and then later on, combined my civil service career with the United Nations, and got to travel, a lot! Kallas: Um, so, some of the work—you want to talk about some of the work you did for the military, Civil Service department? Tawfilis: Yeah. After doing illustration, um, at the Submarine School in Connecticut, where we—where I was born, and my ex-husband was military, we traveled and that’s how I came— came to California. Um, and I worked really hard doing graphics here. Um, I rose in my career there to, to when the Bicentennial happened in, uh, 1975–76, the Navy and the country’s Bicentennial, and I got a little bit famous because I coordinated the whole military celebration down at the Broadway Pier, and things like that. And, then when, uh, uh, I went as far as I could, as far as a illustrator, was go—was my part of my career, and they started to do more and more graphics. I mean I worked at every military base in San Diego that you could think of. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then an opportunity came to become, uh, the first civilian and woman to be a, an international military training coordinator, and that’s how I got really involved with the international work, because the job was to be like a cultural, um, leader for the military people that came and their families, and setting up Friendship programs, and ex—not exchange programs, because these were, these were guys that were being trained on the equipment in the ships that we sold as part of the―what they call an international military exchange training program, I met and several others. So, I worked through all the bases doing that, and really loved, um, starting programs for the military and introducing them to American culture. And that was my real first experience, and getting international people to know the native cultures. And I did a lot of—I spent a lot of time down in San Diego, and Chicano Park, and I used to have the military, even the officers, lay down in the, the big, uh, like a pagoda―I’ve forgotten what you 2 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 call it [chuckles], I think this is my senior moment―um, and look up to see the Inca and the Maya—Mayan civilization paintings, ‘cuz that’s where Chicano Park is sort of visualized and painted in amazing murals. And I did part of that on the bridge, the bridge stanchions that show how the Mexicans and the Spaniards came, and the farm workers came. And that was a lot of indigenous peoples from Mexico. And that got me interested. And then coming from Connecticut and New England where we had a lot of Native American tribes, a lot of international people ask about what happened to all the Indians in American culture? And a lot of—back then, a lot of international people only knew about cowboys and Indians, like most of us when we were growing up, you know, decades ago. And it also—it was very interesting to me because my minor in college was Native American Studies. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And that’s how I got introduced to it. But, you know, it was something that you think of academically, although it struck my heart because I was really angry at our educational system for not letting me know, among others, that where I grew up and lived most of my, you know, young adult life prior to college was Indian country. I mean, one of the thirteen colonies. And people don’t realize what kind of impact that had, has on people when you’re growing up. So, that affected my, my heart always. So, when I—in my career, I’ve always had that as a, I want to say, a big influence on what I’ve done to, to teach international people when I travel, both with the military and with the U.N. Kallas: Now, did the military send you to other countries as well? Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. I ended up—I started out doing, like I said, the international training stuff, but then I was on the base closure team, where my career went way up as far as getting higher promotions and better pay, and stuff like that. So I ended up, after doing base closures in most of the San Francisco Bay and Hawaii area, my territory was, I was one of twelve people that did the base closure studies. And then I had an opportunity—kind of as a fluke—to apply for an international job with the Army, and my supervisor and I both did it, um, as a—I don’t know, we just got a, a bug to say, “Oh, let’s see what happens if we apply to do what we’re doing here in the States, doing base closures.” And so, they offered her a job, and she turned it down. And they said “Oh well, the next person on the list is right in your office. Can we talk to her?” That was me! And so I ended up going to Germany. At the time I had been working for the Navy for over twenty years, in different positions like I said, from illustrator to management analyst, and working at foreign training and base closures. So then I ended up going to the Army in Germany, and that was, uh, right after, um, the Bicentennial had ended, and then I did a stint with—I took some time, and got, went on loan as a Vista volunteer, and went up to the Nespelem reservation in Colville, Kettle Falls area of Washington. I got really lucky cuz’ my hero was Chief Joseph [chuckles] and so I worked on that reservation in a parent aid program. But that’s another whole thing that maybe we could talk about later. Because going back to the military, I did this closing the bases in Europe and I became one of the heads of the base closure team there, and that’s how I got to travel to just about every European country there was. And, um, from there, I got recruited by the state department and through my federal military civilian job, went to work for the United Nations in, in Austria after the base closure job in Germany, that I went onward to, 3 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 um, working on loan again. I went on loan from the Navy to the Army, from the Army to the International Atomic Energy Agency, and on loan again to the United Nations Environment Program in Nairobi. I mean there were jobs in between, but, and like I say that the stint I did at— I got to continue my career, even though I stopped working for the military for two years to work on, um, the Vista volunteer program. When Shriv—Sergeant Shriver started the Peace Corps, he also started the Vista volunteer program, which is now, I think, Americorps. So I was in that first round. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And then I went back to civil service and continued on, and onward to U.N. Kallas: And did they send you to, um, war torn countries, and where there was a lot of political unrest— Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. Kallas: —as a representative? TAWFILIS: Yeah. When I went to, um—well, I could say my first stint overseas in Germany with the Army was when the wall came down. And I had just adopted two more children, and uh, I remember during that time the―when the wall came down, my kids were like, like—they were adopted from Mexico, and then—but they were Americans in a sense, so they were Mexican descent. And it was really interesting for them to learn German, so you see two little Mexicans speaking in German [chuckles]. It was kind of cool. And, um, but the war torn part of it was―my job was because the war was over, the Cold War, and the wall came down, the government decided that’s why they wanted to close the bases because they didn’t need that anymore. We had so much military might invested in Germany because that was the actual front, that it made my job easy because the, the common sense of the economic support that they did for Europe, um, on the, well, it was called the front, made sense to start closing the bases. And so, I became a superstar, doing that, because I had people skills, so the generals that I worked for decided that it was great to have a woman civilian go give the commanding officers of the base the good news and the bad news that their base was going to be closed. And as a result of that, I was one of four women chosen to be, um, a member or take part in a study to decide whether civilians should become executive officers of military bases. So, they sent us to Army Management Staff College, and I was one of the four women that attended that. And so, the idea would be that I would become an executive officer of a military base so they could station military in the field. The problem with that is there’s no military that’s going to listen to a civilian as a boss. So, you can ask my son-in-law about that, ‘cuz he was Army. In fact, my daughter met him there in Germany. But, yeah, that was one. And then with the U.N., when I went to Africa, there’s all kinds of―I want to say―conflicts going on, including Somalia, Rwanda, during all that time, and so, yeah, I saw a lot. In fact, I was car-napped and my own personal safety was in danger there, not only from being exposed to so many people that were dying of AIDS, but because of the tribal—there’s like forty tribes in Nairobi alone and there were conflicts and a lot of cultural differences between the tribal people and a lot of, um, little―I want to say―mini wars going on 4 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 and the political strife, and then of course, it was pretty bloody with Rwanda and then Somalia in that area. But I got to travel all over Africa, looking at—my job there was to consolidate the U.N. organizations in Nairobi and the base was called Gigiri, and, um, I got in trouble there, because I tried to support the local indigenous people with the financial area. So, if you want to talk about wars, and danger, and stuff like that, I think people think of shooting, you know, and bombs and stuff. But there’s other kind of wars, like economic ones. And I came up with this idea that civil service employees in international organizations should be cay—should be paid equally. But they have this system in the U.N. where local nationals are―have to go through a wage classification survey and they get the prevailing wage rate, whatever that country is. So, in other words, my secretary in Austria would get $3,000 a month, but my secretary in Nairobi would get $300 dollars a month. Kallas: Oh... Tawfilis: Yeah. And I just didn’t think that made sense, working with the U.N. So, it was kind of a battle there, and I think that was the biggest war for me, is trying to help the local nationals. And I did some―I want to say―out of the ordinary things, like promoting them when other people went out on mission they would hire people to come in and pay them exorbitant amounts of money, including me, because I, I was on a stipend on a daily basis, in addition to my very high salary. But the work was done by the local people. I think that happens everywhere, that the real worker bees don’t get recognized for the, all the work that they do, and they carry on the mission of whatever that country’s, you know, objectives are. And so, I think that’s one of the reasons I got car-napped, because I had a big mouth and I actually wrote a book about how to flatten the United Nations. So, they sent me back. I was on loan from the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna, Austria to Africa, and because I tried to help the local people, I think I wasn’t going to go much further, after ten years, you know, working for the U.N. So, that was my personal battle when you talk about wars, and dangerous things. I mean, when you get to the point where they don’t want you to talk―and it wasn’t the U.N. that did it―it was a person that probably wanted the job that I had―that arranged for this kidnapping or car-napping that I survived. So… Kallas: So, you also, um, had spent time in Bosnia during that— Tawfilis: Yeah, at the end of my career— Kallas: —that was after all the— Tawfilis: with—I was getting ready to retire and, uh, because I was on loan as a very highranked civilian, the only place they could put me would be the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. and I didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. I’d been at the headquarters many times with my job with the Army. I did a lot of stuff for the Army, like I said. And I really didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. So, they gave me a choice of going to Bosnia and working with the widows at Srebrenica, at the end of the conflict in the Balkans between the―where Yugoslavia had broken up. And I went on an interview sponsored by the Clinton Foundation to be the Director of the Bosnian Women’s Initiative or what they—most people know as the Widows of Srebrenica, 5 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 where at some point they gathered the Bosnian women together―and I should say the Bosnian families together―in their village called Srebrenica which was a safe haven. And unfortunately it wasn’t a very well protected safe haven, and on July tenth and eleventh in 197―uh, 1995, the Serbs came in and gave the people ten minutes to come outside, and they put the women on one side of the street, women and children under fourteen and old people, real old people, and then they put the men and boys on the other side and then they took all the women, put them on buses and sent them to a village in the mountains, in Tuzla. And the men disappeared. They found some mass graves. They found some bodies in a forest where they were―tried to run away, I guess, some of the men. And, but they never found the whole―I would say, whole group of the over six to seven thousand. They, they suspect―there’s a lot of theories, and a lot of books written about it. But my job was to work with the women and help them do economic development and to heal and to also help identify bodies and get all their data because they had no pictures of their families. They had, you know, all this stuff that they—they left with nothing. And then to try to help reconciliation between the three entities, and I ended up, you know, working my, my heart and my head off, because working with people who have lost everything and witnessed the destruction of their country and their families getting killed and murdered and their men disappearing, and these were mostly farm women that didn’t even know how to write their name. So, I think I worked harder in my life those three or four years that I was there doing everything from gathering information to help put the war crimes together because these people were still on the loose. And then throughout the years, the military would find them and capture the war crime perpetrators and bring them to the Hague and they were imprisoned, and some of them—I won’t name names—passed away in prison before they could be tried. But it was terrible trying to identify remains with the women. Maybe it would be just shreds of a shirt but they recognized their husbands. And then having all that emotional—I think I have a whole book of stories I could write about their suffering. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: But because of that, I was encouraged to go work in the orphanage and there three hundred fifty orphans. I have a TED talk online, TED-X from Orange Coast College. And, it was―it’s called “Painting Outside the Lines.” I also have one from UCSD “Stem to Steam” because I put the art part in there. But back to the Bosnian situation and I guess as the point of my career that changed my life that we were going to talk about, because when I saw what the children had gone through and I―they―they told me—you were getting— I was getting very depressed, and they said “you need to go work in this orphanage.” So, the three hundred fifty orphans from all three entities, but they had not found or located all families. So, some of the kids had no survivors. I understand that most of them they were able to place them years later. But while I was there, my―my, uh, free time, if you want to call it free time, was to go and work with these kids to do art. And then after about three months of just sketching and coloring and stuff, they asked if they could make a very big painting and I interpreted that as a mural. And so if you―you’ll hear on the TED talk, how we found bed sheets in a closet that were full of sort of darned holes and the―they explained to me that the young ladies in Europe learn how to sew, which we did away with here in the United States. But there they sew everything. So, when they 6 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 pulled out the sheets, and they had all these little stitches, and some still had holes, I, when I asked them what the holes were about, they said “Well, this used to be a hospital, and it was bombed. So these were from the shells and the shrapnel that, that, you know, made holes in the walls and the bedding and the whole bit of the ugly hospital beds over there.” So, what I did was the Army had left a 10-gallon pan―pail of white flat, white wall paint and I, I had them sew two sheets together and I put masking tape on the back where I thought there were the least amount of holes and then I just painted. I put a whole bunch of newspaper, and in the morning it turned into a very stiff canvas! So, we had a canvas and the kids got very excited. Every time I think about their faces when they saw that, and then it was like “Oh, we’ve got to paint that whole thing?” You know… Kallas: So, that’s when your two careers intersected, so you kind of went back to—. Tawfilis: Right. Kallas: roots, and— TAWFILIS: And I got to do art, right? So, but what changed my life were the, the children and the oldest one was about eighteen and then they had a little eighteen or nineteen-month-old baby in there, and they divided the kids up into groups of five. And they took two older, mostly teens, and then three younger kids, so they could take care of each other, ‘cuz they only had five people running this whole orphanage. There was psychologist, and then the other four were caregivers, and they cooked for them, and made sure that they were, you know, trying to keep them busy. There were—I don’t even think they had formal education for them, because there was nothing. And they were just being protected and fed, and trying—and I think doing the art was a real important thing in their lives. So, how my life changed was, the kids started—I said “you have to decide what you want to paint.” So, what they—I had them do, is I said “Draw something that you want on this canvas.” So, they all did it, and I still have some of the sketches. I should have brought some. But they, they, they had to come up with an idea that would go on the canvas. So, we looked at all the drawings and they started forming this dialogue and they started talking to each other. And you have to understand these kids were very depressed themselves, and they had these real— Kallas: Traumatized. Tawfilis: Yeah. They were all traumatized and they were kind of afraid of each other when they were—they knew that one was a Serb, and one was a Croat, and one was Bosnian. And they didn’t―they matched them up by age, not so much by what sect of religion they belonged to. So, and in children weren’t so attuned, maybe the older ones were a little bit more conscious of their religious differences, whatever. But in the discussions that they were doing, they started talking about the trauma that they had gone through. And some of the kids knew each other from the different villages that they had come from. And I found myself going outside, crying myself, because they started talking about what they saw, what they felt. And even now, when I think about it, it’s still—it burns a hole in your heart, but it—I wondered how this was going to work. And I’d go back in, and then they decided on a theme. And what was happening is they were going through a catharsis themselves, and they ended up with coming up with the theme 7 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 “Yesterday and Tomorrow.” And the Yesterday section of this one―I guess we would call it a triptych in our art language, Yesterday, they did sketches of houses that had no roofs, ‘cuz they’d blown up. Airplanes dropping bombs, and then because the women were wearing kerchiefs because they were Bosnian Muslim, they had their heads covered. There, a lot of the little drawings had little pictures of women lined up, going, and they remembered having to come out of the houses in Srebrenica and line up on the other side of the street. So you saw―you would see sketches of that, and dragons, and just ugly things that they, fires, things burning. And then the middle section where they had put the groups of five together, they drew their little new families, which was really cute. Kallas: That’s awesome. TAWFILIS: And then on the third panel was, were flowers and clowns and balloons and stuff like that. So they called it “Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow.” So after five days of going through that, I can say that was a life changer for me, and, and I was telling my husband about it, and we, we made that first mural, and he was in the process of constructing a new building, me, a gallery, and we called it Avenida de Los Artistas. So, we had a Spanish name in a German country, speaking country in Austria. We started, he started doing murals, or I started it on the wall, one of the walls of the museum that was being built, at the gallery. So, when I’d go back home, we were making murals, and after about a hundred of them we said “we should make this a project.” Because the latch kids would be coming, then the schools started sending kids over. So we turned it into a project, and actually Foulad, my husband, was the man who came up with the idea of calling it “Art Mile.” We didn’t know it was going to turn into twelve miles! But that’s how it started. And then at one point I met a professor from Wesleyan University, and I did some murals. The very first mural we did outside of Bosnia was in Austria. And then on one of my trips back to Connecticut, I met this professor from Wesleyan, and we did one at the university there. And he said “You need to tell the U.N. about your project.” And, so, there are lots of things going on, wars, conflicts all over. And so the United Nations had set up a program called the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And it was founded by Ambassador Chaudry of the U.N. who was at the time Under Secretary General for small developing nations and island nations. And he had written the resolution to start this International Decade from 2001 to the end of 2010. And so my husband and I had this crazy idea of going to New York and getting him to support it as a U.N. project. And at the same time, the son, the grandson of Jacques Cousteau heard about us, and said “I’d love to see what you’re doing. Maybe you should do murals about the sea.” So he flew from London and met us at the famous hotel in New York, and I was, while I was there to meet Ambassador Chaudry and said he would love to see us do murals about the oceans and the sea and the water. And at that time he was at grad school, I believe. And so our very first celebrity fan was Phillipe Cousteau, the son of Phillipe Cousteau, who passed away in a plane crash. He was one of the two sons of Jacques Cousteau. So we went on to the U.N. and just unrolled five canvases, one of them was done in Nairobi, and it went all the way down the hallway, cuz they were five feet by twelve feet, so we had almost fifty feet of canvas going down the hallway and Ambassador Chaudry’s office took up a whole floor of People in the U.N. building and they all came and looked at it and they all fell in love with the project. And that’s when we got his support and endorsement, and we started doing murals. And 8 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 now we’ve got over twelve miles of murals from all over the world, which many of them are right here in this building. And our headquarters is in North County and Oceanside. Kallas: And that is called? Tawfilis: The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center. We had it set up as the first mural museum in the world, and for people who don’t know the word “Muramid” comes from murals that were being constructed into a pyramid which we had set up a project. My husband came up with the design and he did the photography of over a thousand murals and did them in miniature because we were going to create the Muramid Pyramid at the great Pyramids in Giza. And at the time, we had also, I had retired. We had moved to Egypt. We have a home there. And my husband spent a lot of time and a lot of money. What we called Back Cheese, with the paying under the table to the Minister of Education, Minister of Culture, to do a fourth pyramid to be constructed with piping, I don’t know if they call it, it wasn’t the PPV―PVC piping, it was metal. And he designed that. And then a company here in Oceanside―not Oceanside,―in Irvine, “Supercolor Photo,” were kind enough to make the model and take my husband’s design of the miniature murals and make a cover. And we were able to have a ten-foot model that we were going, we used in several places. In fact, we have ten models all over the world right now, including Japan. And we participated in international conferences and things like that. And the whole idea was to have, to have [someone enters the room, off camera] I thought I locked the door, sorry. Anyway, the whole idea was at the end of 2010 we would have this celebration to commemorate the closing of the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And then, what happened was, because we had so many conflicts we ended up with a second decade, which ended at the end of 2021. Kallas: Now all of your—you have twelve themes for your Art Miles. Tawfilis: Mm-hmm. Kallas: Can you share a little bit about that, and what, what people gained from doing these murals? Tawfilis: Sure. The first thing that we did was Peace, Unity, and Healing. And then we ended up with the Women, because the women’s influence on art and healing. That’s where the healing part came in. And you know when you think about peace, unity, and healing, then you talk about women and their role in it. And then we started environment, because everybody started complaining, and worrying about climate change. And as you know, that has a subject that has increased so many, so much all over the world. And it’s happening. We’re all experiencing that. And then we started doing murals in response to every human and natural disaster. That’s even when 9/11 happened in 2001, it was a big deal and we did, like, many murals and actually exhibited some of them on, at Ground Zero. We were there, doing the mural, at Georgetown University on September 11. And we got sequestered into the hotel that we were staying at, because we were doing a Children’s Environmental Health Network thing. But anyway, back to the themes, so that’s how the environment started. We, the third one was Children’s Environmental Health Network where they actually did a film about us there. And while we were doing that, we ended up being, watching the Twin Towers come down. And then from there we 9 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 started Children’s and then Fairytale and then Sports and Music, and so now we have Hero and we had—then we started the Japanese government, or I should say our Japanese team started doing an exchange program. They called it, they call it the International Intercultural Mural Exchange where they do half of a mural in Japan and the other half in another country, with another school. So, there’s four hundred forty murals for each themed. They’re all, not all five by twelve, some of them are half sized. But our goal was to at least get to twelve miles, and then in 2008 we attempted to break the Guinness Book of World Records. But three weeks before that, we found out that the United Arab Emirates had already done that with the longest mural in the world. And we couldn’t surpass it, because they, they would, they did like ten-mile, not ten miles, ten murals more than us. But, even the, the grand master, whatever they call them, that comes to do the, to officiate measurements stuff, said ours weren’t connected, and they want a continuous theme. So, what the, what happened with the United Arab Emirates, they did, they did, I think at that time, like four miles, about women, and it was done for International Women’s Day and they featured the, all the children. And all the schools did murals about the sheikah, or the queen, I guess. And then they had to burn it, because it was done on paper, and Islam doesn’t allow images. So, but they did break the record. Plus, it cost ten thousand dollars to bring the guy over, and we didn’t have that kind of money. We still don’t have that kind of money, because we do it all from our hearts, very few donations. Kallas: And can you talk a little bit of how the initial concept of murals has evolved over the years, compared to where you started in Bosnia, and to where you are right now with the murals. Tawfilis: Yeah. I think the biggest change is education. We found that education has come to the forefront because whenever, whatever thing you’re working on, it teaches you something, you know, whether it’s fairy tales that are originally thought of by children and from their imaginations or sports. There are―you learn what the sport’s all about. Music, the same thing. We’ve even had music murals created while people are looking at a mural and they write music about it. And then, or vice versa. Or when it’s in the indigenous mile. At one time we presented a—because I was in Connecticut at the time, we had someone present the idea of doing—we discovered there were five hundred fifty recognized tribes. And so they did a resolution at the National Congress of American Indians, NCAI, that each tribe would contribute a mural. But we got so busy, and then my husband passed away. We have never followed up on that. I don’t know how long those resolutions last. But I would love to revive it. But since that time, I’ve also discovered there’s a whole bunch of non-recognized tribes. And I think that has appealed to me more, because I feel like, how could you not recognize a tribe? I don’t care. I know that there, their requirements have DNA and numbers of members and whether they have a reservation or whatever. But, it’s not accounting, some of the tribes don’t get credit for just being there, and being there first. And they were decimated by whatever colonial tribe or―how would I say―shouldn’t be―that’s the wrong word―colonial influence that came in and took over those lands, even in our own wars, in the Civil War. Even before that, they, you know, the genocide of Native Americans is something that most Americans don’t even know about. They don’t even know about there’s so many tribes in every country that they went through the same thing. You know, the genocide of every African nation. There’s thirty-three countries in Africa! And most Americans don’t know that. There―you could go there, and you could say “The Dutch took over 10 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 this country. The Italians did this country. The Brits did this.” You know. And they left their influence, but they also started slavery, and brought it here. And then―and I think that’s why there is a bond between a lot of Native Americans. When you―one thing I’ve even discovered more of later in my life is how Native Americans helped so many slaves, you know, following the Civil War. Protected them, and hid them, and intermarried, and that’s why there’s a lot of controversy among white people about―they had this concept the Indians were “red.” First of all, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a red person, or a yellow Chinese person, or maybe caramel, like me. [both she and Linda chuckle] And when you think of black, kids in school when you say “These are Africans.” They use black crayons or black paint. There are some very black people, I think. Some countries have all shades. India has black India people from East India. And Senegal people mostly are darker than most, you know. But there’s also a whole shades, hues of people. But like Aki, our drummer, says “Inside we all have red blood. We all have bones.” You know, and when we all die, you can’t tell, maybe by the―anthropologists will tell you about the skulls and the framework and stuff like that. But color? No. Religion, you know, that’s another thing. So, the other—to get back to your question. The other evolution has been healing. I think the focus now is more on healing, because we have so much―what’s the word―conflicts around the world. And then personal violence going on with school shootings and the massive massacres with massive killings all over and accidents and natural disasters, with hurricanes and floods. Right here in California, the fires, right here! They came right up to the back door here, you know. And if you drive up through the mountains going to, to go buy a pie, you’re going to find out. You drive through all the reservation areas and you see where the fires from the past―you see those still the black, some of the trees, and there’s a big contrast with the silhouettes of those trees and then the―now the overgrown greenery. It’s so beautiful, and you know, things like that. So, healing has made a big difference, because when people―and what I’m really, I think, what I’d like to share in this interview with you―is that healing isn’t just the murals that we send to the people who have been become victims and their families of those who were killed or injured in these horrible violent events or disasters. It’s us, ourselves. When each school shooting happens, how many parents and people with a heart feel that pain, of, of—I can’t—every time I hear of a school shooting, I think of those poor little kids, and I grieve for them and for their families and for the friends and the neighbors that were there. And my first exposure to that was actually the, the widows watching those children, and then 9/11 when the Red Cross had murals being done all over. We have some amazing murals that came from all over the country and the world, displaying their feelings. And one of them, one of the ones that stands out in my mind, is Hope, Alaska did one. And it, the whole mural is the word “Hope” but inside the word “Hope” they drew people, and a lot of native and indigenous people are in that. And then, when Sandy Hook happened from my, where I’m from, Connecticut, I went there, and to see those little children, you know. How can anybody go in and kill all those little tiny kindergarten kids, and the teachers? And then what people don’t know there’s, in America, there’s a place called Besan, near Russia, where the radicals, and the— Kallas: Government was involved in―. 11 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 Tawfilis: Yeah, over two hundred people, two hundred kids and teachers killed. And then again, recently, you know, I mean we could go on and on. And every time we did a mural, it was like once or twice a year, and now, I mean, I think in July we had three shootings, and, you know, things we had to respond to. And actually, I’m behind! We haven’t been able to do, Massa from the, Mahsa Imani―Amini, from the―from Iran, because we’re so busy. We just finished Ukraine, you know. There’s just, St. Louis. All this stuff keeps happening. So, healing! Kallas: So, part of your process in dealing with this tragedy is there’s a healing element for you to respond to those through a mural. And you send those murals to those places, correct? Tawfilis: Yeah. And we’ve been lucky. Sometimes we hear back, and sometimes we don’t. Because you can’t expect everybody, every city and town, to say “Oh, gosh, all these people.” You know, people send food and clothing. And a lot of people do art and murals and flowers and, and stuff like that. So, I know, you know, part of giving, what people don’t understand is we give and we do murals from our heart. We don’t expect a lot in return. What I expect is when people paint a mural to send that they are sharing that same emotion that I feel that they want people to know that we’re thinking of them, and that we’re sending our prayers and good wishes. I know people think that a lot of non-governmental organizations do things for money. Well, we’re, we’re a great example of “No” [laughs], because― Kallas: Non-profit. Tawfilis: Yeah, we are a true non-profit. And my husband and I and a lot of people have contributed. We don’t have an overhead staff that we, we pay for. We can’t. We just don’t, you know. Thank goodness we have good―there’s so many―I focus on the good people and the good things that come. If I started thinking about what I have or what I don’t, you know, what I don’t have, with other organizations that get grants, and they have sponsors and philanthropists look at them, I would never be able to do what I do. At this age, I’m just now starting―we have a Foundation that we’re working on, and my goal is to finally, if I realize it, if I want to have a legacy in the name, in the memory of my husband who gave up his career, and out of my true care and I say, I want to say concern for people who are suffering, and indigenous people, I think that’s why I want it here. That’s what brought my here. I think the Creator, whoever your Creator is, my Creator is a number of spiritual things, that I saw this place that we’re sitting in right now before we opened the Muramid and Artists Alley. And my husband said “It’s too small. It looks like a house!” And it was full of crazy stuff that had been here before. So, it was neglected and smelly. It didn’t have high ceilings when we peeked in the windows, and he, he just kind of passed it on. But, something called out to me in this place. And I remember driving around one day after I knew I had to leave Artists Alley, because he passed away. I hadn’t, didn’t have the infrastructure and the help that I do now with Aki and his drumming and neighbors and friends and people that have helped put this thing together. I remember driving around and it still had a For Rent style on here―sign―and I parked the car and I called the guy and the property manager. And it was still in the same shape that it had been, I guess, six years before. So, this place had been empty for a while. I think maybe something might have happened in between, but I doubt it, because judging from when we did get inside, and there was a lot of feces, dead animals, all 12 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 kinds of stuff. But I can feel this place. When we took down the ceiling, because it was that―what do they call it―insulation hanging down, and I looked at the wood, and I realized “Wow, this place was here a long time ago.” I didn’t know the history of the place, but I’ve been told it was the original general store for the Mission. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then when I found out about the Mission and, you know, being a Catholic, in a former life, I thought “Wow, this is pretty cool!” Then I remember reading, like other things in Connecticut, that there were people here before the Mission came, and I got really passionate about “I’m going to put it right there.” And I want to dedicate the place to the Luiseño, because I found out that they are the people that this belongs to. And everybody that comes in the door, every single person, I can’t think of one that hasn’t come in the door for the first time and goes “Wow! This place, it has such great karma. It feels warm and friendly, and it’s inviting and it’s good to be in here and it’s so creative.” And I went [claps her hands together] “Yes! That’s what we’re all about.” And so, I think we are an important piece of the history of this place because I feel like an archive in here, of some sort. And the Mural Project has found its home, and I think that’s an important part of being the history up here in the North County, to have a project that’s global in scope that has been participated in by over a half a million people from over a hundred countries. To land in a place that is based on what everybody should know about indigenous communities. My hope is that―and I started out with my husband and I both said, you know, before we wanted to feature different cultures, because we felt that Americans weren’t quite educated enough to understand the diversity and the richness of cultures from other people, and other countries, including this country, you know. There’s so many―and I don’t want to use the term “white”―but there’s a lot of American, white people who don’t understand that they came here from other countries as well. And in their own country, if they look back in their roots, they’ll find out that they come in different shades as well. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And that the stolen land―you know, recently I watched a documentary about Alabama where the last slave ship came in and it was against the law to even bring slaves after 1860 or something like that. But it was one ship’s captain who said “I can show you how to do it, and I’m going to prove it.” And he did it out of rebellion and brought a hundred and twenty slaves from Africa, made them get off the ship, near Mobile, Alabama, and in the water, the swamp, they got on to the land. I understand they stayed there for a few weeks and then they divided them into three different plantations. But they burned that ship in that. They said they wanted to get rid of the evidence. Well, that was a genocide in and off itself, of history. And now after four hundred years or whatever, they’re finding all these remnants. You can go anywhere, even here. When we started doing the back, we found a cross in the yard that, that must have been buried in the ground from whatever was here before. And I always wondered what happened and what’s going on with all this gentrification and the new building over there. It hurts my heart. And I talked to a Luiseño member who is one of our drummers, a woman, she said “every time she goes by” and she’s a school bus driver, she said “it hurts my heart.” Because she knows there’s another thing 13 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 covering it up and erasing part of the history of this place. And I’m really sorry that, you know, recently the newspaper said “the wave just got approved with the valley over there, and the rest of the valley. And I live in a place that I look at that, and I, I could cry just thinking about it. Right across the street from Pablo Tac Elementary School. They’re going to build a wave park like we need one so close to the ocean? I mean, come on. Commercialization is just really destroying the natural history of many places including right here where we live. So, I’m hoping that the owner of the properties here will never let this place become that wave even though I can see a beautiful little old town here. You know, I like to see more cultural things happen here. And I’d love to see the cultural district expand from downtown to where the real history is here. I mean, uh, it’s to me almost sinful that we don’t put more emphasis on what the history of this area, of Oceanside, is all about. It’s all on the front, at the waterfront. It’s all commercial. They even destroyed the waterfront in my eyes, by putting all that, the hotels and stuff. Kallas: Well, in trying to put it all together here, in breadth and in depth is community building. Tawfilis: Correct. Kallas: Through the murals, through the other work you’ve done. It seems to be the main theme of your life, and now you have the Center. And doesn’t it also have something to do with UNESCO? Tawfilis: Yes! We recently became the UNESCO Center for Peace for all of California and Baja. And with that I think will help enhance my opportunity and all the people that work with us to bring more cultural education and healing to this area, and to educate people about what real peace begins with me, and our neighbors and our families. And then, you know, I know this all sounds very philosophical but it’s true, you know. And, um, I think we have a pretty good mayor who supports local people more than others that I’ve seen. Maybe it’s because I see her out there in the community more than I’ve seen other mayors do. And I know that she is of Mexican descent, but I also believe that Mexicans have a lot of indigenous people here as well. Kallas: Right. Tawfilis: And when I talk about Mexicans, I don’t mean that they are the invaders of the people that took over. They too have been, you know, victims of genocide. All this belonging to part of that. But the first people here from all the history that I have been able to do my own research on, were the Luiseños. And so, my passion and dedication is going to be based on that. I am going to be looking at other cultures and introducing the people of the world to our local community through this center. But this is―This year, the Valley Arts Festival will feature my dedication to that. As I have this painting behind me. It’s kind of weird that we have this Mexican lady, native, behind me, and then my dancer, and then I am going to do a dedicated mural to the Spirit of the Valley, and to the tribal captain and a woman who happens to be his sister who I think is, in my eyes, the official historian of just about everything that could ever happen to the Luiseños here. And I feel very fortunate, um, coming from where I do, and what I did in Connecticut with the Mashantucket Pequots to see them grow and have the best museum in my eyes, in the whole world, indigenous or otherwise because it’s interactive. To be with people that are still alive that I can talk to and interact with that live right here in this community. So… 14 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 Kallas: So, going forward, what, um, what other projects are on the horizon for you. Tawfilis: Well― Kallas: Besides what you just talked about, are there other avenues that you’re going to pursue? Tawfilis: Oh, thank you for asking. Because one way of documenting history is books. So, I’m writing, actually there’ll be four books that I hope will be coming from me. But interacting with other people, we’re doing, taking the murals now, what am I going to do with twelve miles of murals? My goal is to convince the Smithsonian that they need to take these, because to me it’s a visual documentation of two decades or more of history by the people and for the people. This is their words, not some author who wrote a book about the history of something. It’s from all over the world, and it addresses social issues everywhere. So, what I’m hoping to do is we have a Foundation that we’re going to be―we are part of, called the Endangered Planet Foundation, and our project will, will be embracing that and taking the mural images and trying to create practical products from the mural images and raising money through the sales of textiles and books and things like that, tangible things that can go into a fund that will keep this project going, and long after I’m gone. Hopefully until then I can help form a solid board and we can end up hiring a staff which we’ve never had, to carry on this project, because I think it’s something that can continue. Mural art has been growing all over the world. The cave men have come a long way from their images to creating murals not just on walls but on canvas and ours is mobile. I wanted to have a voice for people that could be shared, not stuck on a wall that you’re never going to― I’m maybe some people will never get to Machu Pichu or to the Egyptian temples and pyramids or caves where we have here in the United States with etchings and things on them. So, this way we can bring people closer together. So that’s the future, is I want to leave a legacy and because I know what works. What other non-profit organization can survive for almost twenty-five years with no money? I’ll tell you why. Because people believe in it, and we believe in it with all our hearts and souls. And, as nearing my seventy-seventh birthday, I bypassed seventy-five because of Covid. I think we have proof in the pudding, so, yeah, that’s the plan, is to continue. Kallas: And speaking from personal experience, I’ve actually experienced the healing process and that sense of community where we’re all working on the same thing at the same time. There’s just so much unity in that and it’s very, you could really internalize that. Tawfilis: Well you know the big―bottom line is mural art gives you a chance to express yourself even with a group, because as you know doing quilt, we do that kind of style with murals as well, in different forms or whatever. You get to express yourself individually but you do it with a group and it brings you all closer together, and in doing so you talk to each other, and the bottom line is you find out how much more we have in common than we have in differences. Which sounds like a cliché, but boy it’s true. Kallas: It’s very true. Tawfilis: We actually do it. And we make ourselves, I mean, better people because we get to know and appreciate other people’s opinions, even if we don’t agree with them. We hear what they’re thinking and feeling, and we learn a lot from each other. And I think that’s how peace is 15 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 going to happen, when we begin to open our minds and our hearts to understanding that we’re different but we all have the same basic common needs. We all want to eat. We all want to be able to have a home over our heads and feel safe. And the richness of having other cultures influencing your life―it’s like if you’re only going to eat American hot dogs and hamburgers, what a boring life that would be, right? [Linda laughs] I always think of it simplistically like that because you end up going “Gee, I like Thai food. I like Chinese food. I like Italian food. Whatever.” Well, that comes from people, you know. And so, the blend and the magic of seeing the dancing from, and the music, the different forms of music, and you can be native American and play rock-n-roll music. I happen to know somebody who can do that and do it well. Or a Filipino that can sing beautiful, musical songs. Or the homeless people with the choir that was started right here from North County. I mean I think that’s a great, you know, cultural contribution to history. So. Kallas: Well, Joanne, thank you so much. It’s been an honor and a privilege to do this interview with you. And I want to repeat something I recently told a mutual friend about you, that I truly think you are a work of art. Tawfilis: Oh, my goodness. Kallas: And I just thank you so much. Tawfilis: Well, thank you. And I also want to say that I did get a PhD at the age of 71. So, my message to all those who think that you never learned and you can’t earn a degree as you get older, you’re wrong. You can get it, and mine was honorary, and I’m really proud of it now because I used to think―I’m very humble about it because I do understand how much hard work goes in to doing a dissertation. I almost got there. I could have done that, but I traveled so much I couldn’t finish. But understanding that when you do a life’s work dedicated to something, I think it’s deserved. I’m saying that today for the first time, that looking back on my career, I did earn it. Kallas: Yes, you did. Tawfilis: And I’m very happy that my, if my dad were alive and I received a big award when I retired. I got the highest award you could get as a civilian and they gave me miniature medal. It’s from the military. As well as a big one. And when I went to Arlington I put that miniature beneath my dad’s cross at Arlington National Cemetery. And I, when I got my PhD, my first trip to Washington, D.C., afterwards I went directly there, and I told my dad “Guess what, dad? You wanted me to get an education, and I got a Ph.D.” Kallas: Wow, what a great note to close on. Thank you again. I really appreciate this. Tawfilis: Thank you. [Looking off camera to someone else] Did I put you to sleep? Unknown male voice: No, that’s a wrap. 16 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 GLOSSARY: Aki (pg.11,12) Ambassador Chaudry (pg.8) Americorps (pg.4) Arlington National Cemetery (pg.16) Army Management Staff College (pg.4) Artist’s Alley (pg.2) Art Miles (pg.2,8) Back Cheese (pg.9) Base closure team (pg.3) Besan (near Russia) (pg.11) Bosnian Women’s Initiative (pg.5) Broadway Pier (pg.2) Chicano Park (pg.3) Chief Joseph (pg.3) Children’s Environmental Health Network (pg.9) Colville (pg.3) Endangered Planet Foundation (pg.15) Foulad (pg.8) Friendship Program (pg.2) Gigiri (pg.5) International Atomic Energy Agency (pg.4,5) International Decade for the Culture of Peace (pg.8,9) International Intercultural Mural Exchange (pg.10) Kettle Falls (pg.3) Luiseño (pg.13,14) Mahsa Amini (pg.12) Mashantucket Pequots (pg.14) 17 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 Mural Museum (pg.2) Muramid Arts and Cultural Center (pg.9) Muramid Pyramid (pg.9) National Congress of American Indians (pg.10) Nespelem (pg.3) Orange Coast College (pg.6) Pablo Tac Elementary School (pg.14) “Painting Outside the Lines” (pg.6) Peace, Unity, Healing (pg.9) Sergeant Shriver (pg.4) Srebrenica (pg.5) “Stem to Steam” (pg.6) Submarine School (pg.2) Supercolor Photo (pg.9) Tuzla (pg.6) UNESCO Center for Peace (pg.14) United Nation Environment Program, Nairobi (pg.4) Vista Volunteer Program (pg.4) 18 Transcribed by Melissa Martin � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tawfilis, Joanne. Interview transcript, October 31, 2022. Description An account of the resource Joanne Tawfilis is the executive director of the Art Miles Mural Project, which has had the participation of over 500,000 people from 125 countries to paint murals. Tawfilis and her late husband Fouad started the Art Miles Mural Project after Tawfilis worked with orphans in Bosnia, where they created a murals using the only materials available -- a 10 gallon can of white wall pain and bedsheets riddled with bullet holes. The Art Miles Mural Project is currently homed at the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center in Oceanside, California, where there are electronic displays of over 5,000 murals, art classes, music, and spoken word performances. Tawfilis has had a storied career and has worked with the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Women of Srebrenica Project, and UNESCO. In her interview, Tawfillis discusses her career working as a civilian employee of the military, as well as her work with the United Nations, IAEA, and the Women of Srebrenica Project. Tawfilis also discusses the creation of the Art Miles Mural Project, the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, and her thoughts on art as a vehicle for healing, empathy, and peace. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joanne Tawfilis Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Linda Kallas Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-31 Subject The topic of the resource Art Miles Project Bosnian Women's Initiative International Atomic Energy Agency Military base closures Mural painting and decoration Muramid Art and Cultural Center (Oceanside, Calif.) Orphanages--Bosnia and Herzegovina Srebrenica Massacre, Srebrenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1995 Unesco United States. Army United States. Navy Women artists Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceanside (Calif.) Srebrenica (Bosnia and Herzegovina) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joanne Tawfilis License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_transcription Activists and activism Art and artists Community history North County Oral History Initiative Politics and governance Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Albert F. Toro OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Veteran United States Army;Vietnam;Chilean American Veterans;Sergeant OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Toro, Albert F. Interview November 15th, 2024 SC027-073 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran United States Army ; Vietnam ; Chilean American Veterans ; Sergeant Albert F. Toro Jason Beyer Moving Image ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/149798808a6a331fca4bb254ae05fe7e.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 62 Military Background and Upbringing Albert F. Toro served in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War and attained his highest rank of E5 Sergeant. He was born in Santiago, Chile in 1942. U.S. Army ; E5 Sergeant ; Vietnam War ; Santiago (Chile) ; junior college ; draft ; conscription 0 113 Military Conscription Toro was working and attending junior college when he received notice to register for military service. He was presented with the choice to either serve or leave the country. Toro wanted to finish college and build a life for himself in the United States, so he was drafted into the U.S. Army. Around 1967, he was inducted into the Armed Services without the opportunity to defer. U.S. Army ; draft ; conscription ; Vietnam War ; Armed Forces ; college ; deferment ; register ; induction ; physical ; Federal Bureau of Investigation ; U.S. Air Force ; high school 0 340 Military Training and Promotions Toro trained as infantry at Fort Ord. Frequent rain and long walks made training physically challenging. He received on-the-job training as a supplier while in advanced individual training. He recalls how his battalion commander, Captain Cunning, was a kind man who mentored him. Toro became an armorer and was awarded for his outstanding service. infantry ; rain ; meningitis ; battalion ; barracks ; base camp ; training ; post exchange ; platoon ; advanced individual training ; basic training ; on-the-job training ; supplier ; Captain Cunning ; commander ; officer ; armorer ; M14 rifle ; M16 rifle ; Military Operational Standard ; corporal ; sergeant ; Private First Class ; Fort Ord (Calif.) ; Highway 1 (Calif.) ; Monterey Peninsula (Calif.) 0 642 Adapting to the Military Lifestyle Toro describes how difficult it was to sacrifice his independence as he adapted to the military lifestyle. Additionally, it was difficult to become independent again after years of depending on others in the service. military lifestyle ; draft ; Vietnam ; civilian ; Armed Forces ; U.S. Army 0 752 Interactions with People During Stateside Service After his on-the-job-training, Toro became permanent cadre and stayed in Fort Ord for another year, working for the training unit that he was assigned to. Toro describes the camaraderie among cadre at Fort Ord as some of his favorite experiences during stateside military service. on-the-job training ; cadre ; camaraderie ; sergeant ; lieutenant ; Vietnam ; Fort Ord (Calif.) 0 828 Deployment to Vietnam In January of 1968, Toro was deployed to Tan Son Nhut, located near Saigon, Vietnam. He remembers the gigantic base camp, its large barracks, and the mosquito nets that surrounded the buildings. Toro recalls being attacked on his first night in Vietnam, hiding in a concrete bunker. Tan Son Nhut (Vietnam) ; Saigon (Vietnam) ; Expiration Term of Service ; Vietnam ; Vietnam ; base camp ; Armed Forces ; Bearcat ; mosquitoes ; culvert 0 967 Interactions with Local Cultures and People in Vietnam The only frequent interactions Toro had with local Vietnamese people were the kitchen police who served food for American armed forces. After his time at Tan Son Nhut, Toro served for six months at Củ Chi Base Camp as part of the supply unit providing food, weapons, and equipment to the field. kitchen police ; Vietnam ; Củ Chi (Vietnam) ; Saigon (Vietnam) ; 25th Infantry Division ; Viet Cong ; artillery supply ; supplier ; artillery unit ; supply unit ; battery ; service ; sorties ; base camp ; battalion 0 1105 Sleeping Arrangements in Vietnam Toro describes sleeping arrangements in Vietnam and his experience repairing a flooded hooch during a storm. sleeping arrangements ; Củ Chi (Vietnam) ; storm ; hooch ; post exchange 0 1161 Experiences with Wild Animals in Vietnam Fumigation, traps, and mosquito nets helped prevent any negative experiences Toro had with wild animals. However, heavy rain would cause problems for housing. wild animals ; viper ; fumigation ; rats ; mosquito nets ; tents ; rain ; Vietnam 0 1252 Supplying Artillery Units in Vietnam As a Supply NCO, Toro supplied artillery units in combat zones with ammunition and food. combat ; combat service ; combat service support ; supply ; artillery ; ammunition ; food ; battalion ; clerics ; ammo dump ; Howitzers ; sorties ; convoys ; Củ Chi (Vietnam) ; Supply NCO ; Non-Commissioned Officer 0 1347 Recreation in Vietnam Although Toro says there were “no weekends” in Vietnam, he does describe moments of respite, including barbecues and film nights. recreation ; Vietnam ; war ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; barbecue ; cooking ; conexes ; projector ; movies ; The Green Berets ; John Wayne 0 1431 Stories of Camaraderie and Supplying Artillery in Vietnam Toro was mentored by Sergeant Johnson, who took him under his wing as a clerk. While in Cần Thơ as part of his ammunition supply work, he would make trips to get ammunition from the South Vietnamese army. Toro recalls humorous interactions with the South Vietnamese army, specifically what he had to do in order to receive the ammunition. Toro was grateful to supply ammunition because it kept him from being sent to the field. However, he does recall the fear of landmines and seeing exploded civilian buses. Sergeant ; Chile ; Armed Forces ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; ammunition ; clerk ; Vietnamese ; English ; Howitzers ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; South Vietnam ; Mekong Delta (Vietnam) ; Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) ; ammo dump ; office ; officer ; Deuce-and-a-Half (M35 2½-ton cargo truck) ; sorties ; convoys ; artillery unit ; helicopter ; roads ; landmines ; rice paddies ; buffalo ; civilians ; buses ; farmers ; Charlie Battery ; rubber plantation ; French ; base camp 0 1734 Communication with Family Since Toro made the decision to stay in the U.S. and join the military instead of returning to Chile, his family was upset. The long period of separation was especially hard on his parents. family ; friends ; communication ; parents ; Chile ; South America 0 1762 Treating Others with Respect as a Sergeant As a Sergeant, Toro wanted to treat the guard duty he was in charge of with respect. When guards were in foxholes, Toro would bring them food, help them stay awake, and try to keep them comfortable. Sergeant ; guard duty ; respect ; friend ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; platoon ; foxhole ; shelter ; airfield ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; trust 0 1838 Unusual Event Experienced in Vietnam Toro tells a story about guarding an airfield in Cần Thơ. A soldier reported from a 30-foot tall tower that he was afraid, and Toro went to support him. Rain was flooding the area. Toro almost got washed off into barbed wire and nearly lost his weapon. By the time he reached the top of the tower, Toro and the guard were fired upon by snipers. The guard panicked and jumped off the tower but did not break any bones. guard ; airfield ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; Cobra helicopters ; Bell AH-1 Cobra ; jungle ; towers ; rain ; Jeep ; barbed wire ; sniper fire ; M16 ; .45 caliber handgun ; sandbags 0 1982 Sleeping in the Deuce-and-a-Half in Vietnam According to Toro, U.S. armed forces slept in tents at base camp in Cần Thơ and hoped to eventually build hooches. Heavy rains and mosquitoes made sleeping in the tents difficult. So Toro spent three months sleeping in his M35 2½-ton cargo truck, commonly referred to as a Deuce-and-a-Half. Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; Mekong Delta (Vietnam) ; Deuce-and-a-Half (M35 2½-ton cargo truck) ; hooch ; mosquito nets ; mosquitoes ; sleeping arrangements 0 2097 End of Military Service Before ending his service, Toro had “two weeks off” on guard duty in Cần Thơ. He recalls spending most of the day in base camp, occasionally visiting an enlisted club that served food. He avoided leaving base camp or exposing himself too much because he wanted to make it back home alive. guard duty ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; U.S. Armed Forces ; enlisted club ; Saigon (Vietnam) ; base camp 0 2218 Returning to the U.S., Visiting Family in Chile, and Readjusting to Civilian Life Toro returned to the U.S. in the San Francisco bay area. He then spent months in Chile with his family before returning back to Los Angeles. Using the G.I. Bill, he was able to complete college and start his career in the aerospace industry in defense. San Francisco (Calif.) ; U.S. Air Force ; Expiration Term of Service ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; Chile ; United States ; G.I. ; college ; South America ; family ; aerospace industry ; defense industry 0 2402 Camaraderie During Service and Inability to Reconnect with Friends after Service While working at TRW in Torrance, California, he ran into a fellow Vietnam veteran. The moment was memorable because Toro had lost contact with most of his Vietnam comrades. Toro had hoped to reconnect with the fellow veteran, but the interaction was cold and brief. Despite this, he says the comradery in Vietnam was strong. Toro tells a story about he and his comrades building a makeshift bar using ammunition boxes, plywood, and plastic roofing. Vietnam ; Torrance (Calif.) ; refineries ; gas station ; TRW (Thompson Ramo Wooldridge Inc.) ; defense contracts ; mechanic ; motor pool ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; Tet Offensive ; camaraderie ; ammunition ; bar ; Howitzers ; plywood ; roofing ; C-rations ; artillery 0 2603 Vietnam Veterans’ Feelings of Ostracization After Service Toro describes the feelings of ostracization he experienced in the U.S. as a Vietnam veteran. He was especially upset that the “amazing people” he served alongside were often ridiculed. Toro tells a story about a group of long range patrols who had a monkey as a guard animal. Toro says he started to feel prouder of his military service once the attitude toward Vietnam veterans changed and they were better recognized for their service. Vietnam ; ostracization ; Travis Air Force Base ; San Francisco (Calif.) ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; U.S. Army ; veterans ; infantry ; baboon ; monkey ; dog ; long-range reconnaissance patrol ; search and destroy ; Viet Cong ; the 25th Infantry division ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; My Lai ; massacre ; recognition ; baby killer 0 2907 Life Lessons from Military Service Toro says friendship was a life lesson he learned in military service. He describes how some of the less fortunate people in his training unit at Fort Ord had chosen military service as an alternative to jail. These were often teenagers. friendship ; discipline ; Fort Ord ; Category IV ; Cat 4 ; teenager ; military service ; jail teenager 0 2960 Message for Future Generations Toro says that if he learned one thing, it is that you have to survive in war. You cannot count on anyone else. survive ; survival ; risk 0 3026 Association with the San Marcos Community Toro became associated with the San Marcos community through his neighbor, Jason Beyer, the oral history interviewer. San Marcos (Calif.) ; U.S. Armed Forces ; interview 0 3051 Comradery and Recreation during Military Service Although he struggles to remember the names of friends he made, Toro reminisces on the comradery he experienced during service, including recreational activities like gambling that he chose not to participate in. basic training ; friends ; interviewer ; Fort Ord ; Vietnam ; hooch ; gambling ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; beer ; comradery ; cooks 0 3138 What More People Should Know About Veterans Toro wants more people to know about what veterans went through. He speaks about their lack of freedom, and how many people were not cut out for military service but nonetheless served. freedom ; soldier ; pacifist ; danger ; bravery ; military service 0 3235 Learning How to Become Independent After Military Service Toro describes how difficult it was to adapt to civilian life as an independent person. Since he was in his mid-twenties when he entered the military, he says that younger enlistees and conscripts would have a more difficult time readjusting than he did. independence ; dependence ; meals ; conflict ; military draft ; young people ; U.S. Armed Forces ; Expiration Term of Service 0 Oral history Albert F. Toro is a Chilean American who served in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War, reaching his highest rank of E5 Sergeant. Toro described being drafted and deployed to Vietnam. As a Supply Noncommissioned Officer (NCO), Toro provided artillery units in combat zones with ammunition and food. Toro shared his life story as both an immigrant and veteran, including the ostracization and shame many veterans experienced upon their return from Vietnam. This oral history interview explores topics such as comradery, independence, military training, mentorship, college, recreation, fear, immigration, and veteran recognition. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.785 --> 00:00:58.000 My name is Jason Victor Beyer. I'm a graduate of California State University San Marcos. Today I will be interviewing Albert F Toro. Today's date is Friday, November 15th, 2024. We are located in the Kellogg Library at CSUSM, located at 333 South Twin Oaks Valley Road, San Marcos, California 92096. My relationship to the interviewee is that we are both military veterans. The names of the people attending this interview are the interviewer, Jason Beyer, interviewee Albert F Toro, camera operator Adel Bautista, Marilyn Huerta, and Kathy Toro. The purpose of this interview is to conduct an oral history. Please state your full name—first, middle, and last name. 00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:02.865 Albert ; and middle initial, F ; and last name, Toro. 00:01:02.865 --> 00:01:04.245 The branch of service you were in? 00:01:04.245 --> 00:01:06.314 US Army. 00:01:06.314 --> 00:01:08.405 What was your highest rank attained? 00:01:08.405 --> 00:01:10.325 E5 Sergeant. 00:01:10.325 --> 00:01:12.394 And the war or conflicts you served in? 00:01:12.394 --> 00:01:14.424 The Vietnam conflict. 00:01:14.424 --> 00:01:22.135 So, I'm gonna begin by starting with your biographical details. Where were you born? 00:01:22.135 --> 00:01:26.644 I was born in Santiago, Chile in 1942. 00:01:26.644 --> 00:01:28.325 What was life like in Chile? 00:01:28.325 --> 00:01:32.405 Beautiful. I had a nice upbringing. 00:01:32.405 --> 00:01:36.000 Does your family have any past affiliations with the military? 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:39.495 No. 00:01:39.495 --> 00:01:44.034 Did you hold any jobs before you entered the military service? 00:01:44.034 --> 00:01:53.814 I was going to college at junior college, and I was drafted outta junior college. 00:01:53.814 --> 00:01:58.385 So you were drafted—could you tell me how you were drafted into the US Army? 00:01:58.385 --> 00:04:14.000 Well, at the event to come to the United States, and some of the forms that you fill out there is a little strip about an inch by 12 inches wide. And it says, "Upon the age of 18, you must register to the military service of the United States." And, so I sort of—you know—with time, I guess—I was working, going to college—and I never did have the intention not to register—that's a completely—disregard that fact. So around 1967, about—I think about three years later—I was notified a friendly with the—it was a letter in my apartment from the FBI (Federal Bureau of Investigation)—(Toro laughs)—saying that you have to register within a week. A couple weeks later—I registered—but a couple weeks later, I was called in for a physical for the—that was about—in September, I think I received the notice. And in December of 1966, I got the—I was inducted. I had a physical and I was inducted in the Armed Forces. And even though going to junior college—I guess—I didn't have the opportunity to defer. I was taking so many units and I was working at the same time. So I—at that time, I think the minimum requirement was 14 units for college, and I have 12. And, so I said—they gave me a choice, either serve or leave the country. So, you know, my ambitions were, you know, to serve—and not only that, because I wanna finish school and fill—you know, fulfill my dream to, you know, become a productive person in this country and also to be able to finish my college. So I—two years, I said, it's gonna be not too bad. And that was the way I started in the Armed Forces. I mean—I guess—the way I was drafted. Do I have to elaborate on that? 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:19.204 Did you have a choice in the branch of service that you joined? 00:04:19.204 --> 00:04:57.105 I did originally. I want to tell you something, that I heard so much about the Air Force, and I like electronics so much that I say, well, that'd be a big good a chance to—what do you call it—probably if I get drafted sometime in the future. That was my thought. So I applied to the Air Force—I remember that—but I never got a called. And they tell you, finish your high (school), finish your college, and then we'll talk. But that was kinda—I guess the Army had to step forward on me, you know, just—I got drafted and my choice—the only choice they gave me was Army. 00:04:57.105 --> 00:05:01.644 How did it make you feel that you were drafted. 00:05:01.644 --> 00:05:40.985 Because of my age, I feel a little—and also my school—I said, this is gonna have to be postponed for, you know, two years. And I wasn't that young, you know, I was 25. So I said, I'll be 27. And then when I said, probably when I come back to to school I'm gonna have to probably take again all the subjects that I was taking in college. And that happened, 'cause when I came back, I had to retake almost everything. And I lost another two years. But, you know, I don't have no regrets with—you know, I guess. 00:05:40.985 --> 00:05:47.685 For your early days of service during bootcamp, what type of training did you receive? 00:05:47.685 --> 00:06:58.235 I was infantry. So we did a lot of big walks. We did a lot of firing. A lot of, uh—what do you call—and the—Fort Ord was kind of tough because we had a lot of rain. So almost all our training was in the rain. At that time, that year it was really—it really rained the whole year long. Plus we had a meningitis issue, so our battalions—what they call, they were—we were located up in the new barracks—Fort Ord—and that was in the east side of what you call the base camp. The old barracks were right down by the Highway 1, the bottom of Monterey Peninsula. We were up on top and we were all restricted for the full training. To go to the movies, we have to go only—we were allowed to go all together—or whatever activities, PX (post exchange) and all that. We were all allowed to get as a platoon, you know, as a group. So we weren't restricted until AIT, the advanced individual training. But it was, you know, it was a lot of work (laughs). 00:06:58.235 --> 00:07:08.000 What is your most vivid memory? Both best and worst parts of your time in training and in school? 00:07:08.000 --> 00:08:26.415 On the training, the best part is when I left basic training. Basic training was, you know, it was hard. I mean, I'm 25 years old and you have a lot of young people, but I did fairly well. I could run, I could do all the stuff. And there I have some issues—you know, physical issues—but, I overcame those. And—but the most rewarding thing that I ever got—(long pause, Toro starts crying)—was in—it was in basic AIT, I had a lucky time to end up with an advance of a—I was in the on-the-job training as a supplier, and I was supposed to be in there for, I think it was about six or eight weeks—and I run into a very kind man, which was our battalion commander. He was named Captain Cunning, and he was like a father to me. And he helped me a lot with my career too. And he acknowledged my—you know—that I was capable to do the job and rewarded me with that. 00:08:26.415 --> 00:08:28.975 So he was one of your instructors? 00:08:28.975 --> 00:09:29.625 He was actually the—he was my commander. He was actually the commander because we were in an AIT unit. I was in a basic—I was in a AIT unit infantry. So we were training troops, and he was in charge of that unit, which was a platoon. It was—we have four platoons in that—I forget the name of it—I think it was "C-1-2" or something like that—that was the AIT. So we trained infantry people. They were ready to, you know, ready to go to the—and fight. So we trained—that was the last echelon on the training and forward the AIT events, individual training. So you will be preparing yourself to go to whatever the commitment was. But he was very—for being an officer for, you know, infantry—it was really a—what do you call—sort of thrown off because—so he wasn't—he was a tough man, but he was also kind. 00:09:29.625 --> 00:09:35.195 Did you qualify with any equipment such as vehicles, aircraft, radios, or weapons? 00:09:35.195 --> 00:10:10.904 Well, I became a—in fact, I became an armorer, and I got awarded for being an outstanding armorer, taking care of the weapons on the company. There were 250—I think about 250, I guess, M14s (M14 rifle)—we trained with the M14 at that time. We didn't have the M16 (M16 rifle)—I guess it was not available in the 60s. And all need time to qualify. If you qualify an inventory, that is the only time that you could touch the M16. We qualified use of the M16. 00:10:10.904 --> 00:10:13.000 Did you receive any promotions? 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:42.553 Yeah. I was promoted to E4 Sergeant. I mean, actually it was—they promoted me to it because of the—it was the infantry and by MOS, which is my Military Operational Standard—was supplied, I could not be a corporal or a sergeant. So they make me a PFC-4 (Private First Class), but they gave me an acting jack. They gave me the two stripes of a corporal for that because of the training unit. 00:10:42.553 --> 00:10:49.105 What was the hardest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to? 00:10:49.105 --> 00:11:34.784 Well being spoiled, it was tough. You know, when you—because I was already 25, so I have my ways and you're pretty—you know, kind of independent. And I never thought that I was gonna be drafted. I was more like a civilian. So it was kind of hard. I feel a little like in confinement for me, for a while. I mean, especially when I was in Vietnam, because, you know, a long time for serving and—you know, it's difficult for a person like a civilian. They all of a sudden—they throw you in that—and I've always being pretty "I want to do my things my way." So it was tough. It was tough. But I followed, you know, the suit. I didn't fight it. 00:11:34.784 --> 00:11:42.514 What was the easiest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to. 00:11:42.514 --> 00:12:32.475 I just, become a civilian later on. But you get pretty much—you know, I think it is funny that even though being 25 and having my own things as a civilian, to end up for two years in the Armed Forces—and at the end, you depend a lot. That's another thing that I forgot to tell you, that sort of, you can—you start thinking still that someone is backing you up. Because when you're in the Army, you're following. You're not making your own decisions, really. You are more a follower. So, and then it gets difficult. Yeah, I'm a civilian now, and what am I gonna do? I'm not gonna get my four square meals a day, you know? So then you start thinking, and you have to get out of the mood. But yeah. 00:12:32.475 --> 00:12:40.034 What were your interactions like with people you encountered during your stateside service? 00:12:40.034 --> 00:13:48.835 Well, the best—I think it was the—I guess, life, you know, as I became a—like I mentioned, when I was in the OJT (on-the-job training)—after my OJT, which is six weeks, I became permanent cadre. So I stayed in Fort Ord for another year, working for the—in the training unit that I was assigned to do my on-the-job training. And that's what I found—there was a lot of—you know, I think the people—I guess since you are cadre, you are in a different position than if you are a trainee. So there was a lot of camaraderie in there in the—among the—what do you call the cadre—the sergeants, the lieutenants. And there was a lot of like—you know, we could kid around. Instead of—when you're a trainee—when you're in training, you know, the officers and all that, they want some respect. So that become a little more lax. It was fun. I think I enjoyed the—Fort Ord was fun. I mean, not too much as when I—I guess when I went to Vietnam, that was a little tougher. Yeah. 00:13:48.835 --> 00:13:52.274 What war conflicts were you a part of? 00:13:52.274 --> 00:16:07.794 Well, in January of 1968, I end up in Tan Son Nhut, that is at Saigon. That was my starting at Vietnam. I forgot the term they used. I think it's ETS (Expiration Term of Service)—I think is the end of the term of service. But this is when I got—we got in Vietnam after a long trip, we end up in Tan Son Nhut, which is in Saigon, and we end up in the processing base in there. I think it's called Bearcat—I think it was called. And that's where they process all the Armed Forces. Basically it was mostly—I saw Army people. And we arrived sort of late in the evening. I don't remember having shower. I think that they took us to the barracks. I never forget that. And it was a gigantic base camp with all the—you know, these big barracks that they were two tier buildings. Usually they were made outta wood, and they get—because of mosquitoes they were surrounded by mosquito net mesh. And usually these barracks have a long haul, and they got all the bunkers, you know, lined up. You got probably here, probably downstairs, there were like 50 people. And upstairs, there was a two story. And I end up right underneath in the bottom. I don't think we have supper that night. I don't have a recall of that. But I remember one thing really clear, that that night we got hit. Badly, we got hit. And I really panic. I didn't know what to do. And we hide. I mean, I remember that we had this bunker made out of concrete, like a culvert. And I got under this place in there, and that was my first experience in Vietnam—late at nighttime. And oh my God, I said, this is gonna be tough. 00:16:07.794 --> 00:16:14.105 What were your interactions like with the local cultures and the people you encountered while you were deployed in Vietnam? 00:16:14.105 --> 00:18:25.365 The only interaction we had usually was with the KP (kitchen police) people we had, and the girls and the young men, they had, were used for—you know, they help us, you know, with serving. And they were very nice people. They enjoyed—we used to teach them a lot. They were good people. And, since we were in—there were two bases—I ended up in Vietnam where I ended up in a base camp called Củ Chi, which north of Saigon is about 50 miles, and that was the 25th Infantry Division. So we—they have no access, we can't go nowhere. There's a town in the Củ Chi, and they say it was—the Viet Cong was right in there all the time, so there was no access to it. And I end up in a supply unit. So we used to supply food and ammunition to our—I end up in an artillery unit, which—but I end up in a battery called "the service." We used to service—food, weapons and whatever require in the field. And also we used to fix all the equipment for them. But I end up in the food—I end up in supply, supplying the troops for food so everything was flown off. From Củ Chi, there was no access to the outside world by—only flying. And I guess that was my experience there, supplying the troops. We used to fly all the sorties. I never flew out of Củ Chi, but we used to provide it to the helicopters and all that. Our artillery units were in the field. And our base camp was completely sealed from—what do you call—the outside world, although the town of Củ Chi was right next door. And I've seen in pictures now of pretty—it's kind of a large town today. But that was—I guess that was my—there was no out. I mean, I was in. So all my work was—for six months I spent in there just supplying, providing food for our battalion and flying sorties out to the field. 00:18:25.365 --> 00:18:30.243 How were your sleeping arrangements like? 00:18:30.243 --> 00:19:21.025 In Củ Chi we had hooches that were built of, you know, wood, tin roof. And I never forget that we had a storm one time—I'm going to tell you about that one, and that's interesting—because we got a storm, and the roof was thin, so it got blown off. So, and then of course, we got all wet in there. So at nighttime, at my cell was a couple more troopers. We end up up on the roof nailing the tin roof to prevent the water from going inside of the—(laughs)—inside of the hooch. And the place was pretty, you know, it was nice. It was, you know—we had a PX (post exchange)—we had not that many comforts but it was also—you know, like I said, we were restricted. 00:19:21.025 --> 00:19:24.545 Did you have any problems with wild animals or anything? 00:19:24.545 --> 00:20:17.025 We had a lot of—wild animals, yes. We had some snakes in there. I think that we found some of them is supposed to be—they call a viper. They were pretty deadly. But we never encounter. I didn't never encounter, because these people used to come around and I guess they used to fumigate and make sure that we were safe. They put all kinds of—they have the trap for the rats. We have rats. So in all the corners in there, we had—(laughs)—we had rat traps for what do you call—to prevent us, you know, to be in—I guess—bothered with these little creatures. But the tents were, you know, like I I mentioned, they were all floors with hardwood, and we were surrounded by mosquito nets around the air to protect us from—mosquito was a big issue in Vietnam. Yeah. 00:20:17.025 --> 00:20:20.105 Did the rats ever get inside your tents at all? 00:20:20.105 --> 00:20:52.795 No, we were lucky. And they were usually—the tents, they were—the buildings were about a foot off the ground, so we're (unintelligible) because when it rain in there we have a foot of water outside. And it will rain, and they will rain in there, and a foot of rain was nothing in a couple hours. And after that it will dry automatically. I guess that's what Vietnam is. I guess the water gets absorbed pretty quick. So you—after the rain, looks like it never ever rained. Yeah. 00:20:52.795 --> 00:21:01.865 Were you in combat, combat support, combat service support role, or did the war zone make that designation irrelevant? 00:21:01.865 --> 00:21:58.335 No, I was in the combat zone and we were supplying our artillery units—we have Alpha, Bravo and Charlie—and that was the thing: supply ammunition, ammo, plus food in the field. At that time, when I was in Củ Chi, I didn't fly any sorties. I was mostly involved in supplying the food—supplying the food for our existing unit, and plus, they're called the battalion. We have a battalion in there with all the sort of people that provided more support on the clerical side. So we had to supply for people—a hundred people—you know, supply all the food. And also the sorties were flown out by other—and ammo was also taken by what we used to call "the ammo-dumping people" to supply Howitzers in the field. So they used to go on convoys out of Củ Chi. 00:21:58.335 --> 00:22:01.005 Where else did you serve in Vietnam? 00:22:01.005 --> 00:22:27.674 I serve as a—I was a supply NCO (Non-Commissioned Officer) for ammo. So I used to order the ammunition for the field for the Howitzers. And also I did a lot of food supply. We used to supply the food, so we had to fly sorties for food and ammo to the field. 00:22:27.674 --> 00:22:33.005 What did you do for recreation or when you were off duty? 00:22:33.005 --> 00:23:51.035 There was not too much in there because when you're in Vietnam—I guess in the war—there are no weekends. So we did seven days a week. And usually we give us—on Sundays, usually the NCOs will go and cook for us. So we have a barbecue, and they will, you know, give us—and we were lucky because we were able to absorb some t-bone steaks in there, and some good hamburgers. So the NCOs and the commanders will cook for the troops. So that was a—it was usually, typically then about 5:00 PM, so we get the rest of the evening. And occasionally we had these conexes with that—so you probably remember that—you're interviewing me, and I know you're familiar with the—conexes are these metal containers. And inside we have a projector, so sometime we used to get movies. And we got one of The Green Berets movies. And I never forget that with John Wayne. And people were laughing so much about it, because you're in a war zone and you got a green beret. Do you remember that? Probably you remember that, about John Wayne in there. And that was the funniest thing in the world, I think that hit me. Yeah. 00:23:51.035 --> 00:23:57.724 What kinds of friendships and camaraderie did you form while serving and with whom, while you were in Vietnam? 00:23:57.724 --> 00:28:54.025 I had a—I think it was Sergeant—oh my God, I can't remember his name right now, with all this. There was a sergeant in there that sort of was my protege, and he was from Idaho, I think. And he—Sergeant Johnson was one of them. Sergeant Johnson—let me go back—he was a—it's a first sergeant. He was in charge. He was pretty keen on me because of—for being, I guess—I was born in Chile, so he was kind of keen on me that he couldn't understand why I was serving in the Armed Forces. He used to tell me, "Oh I can't believe this." And the other ones—I can't remember his name, and he was the one who actually helped me a lot. He was an E6. He was an ammunition—what do you call—NCO? And he took me under his arms, and I become his clerk. So I used to run the runs for him, I used to ride on—the phone was Vietnamese, but they have a little translation in English, which it says what came of ammo we were getting for our Howitzers. So he gave me the task to run to town. This is moving to when I was in Cần Thơ—this is South Vietnam by the Mekong Delta. And he assigned me—"You're gonna write all the forms for the ammo, and you're gonna go and wait." And there were Vietnamese—we had to get from the south—from the ARVNs (Army of the Republic of Vietnam)—we have to get the ammo, believe me or not. So the ammo dump was in the charge of the South Vietnamese Army. So they used to make me wait in there. I sat in there in the office, looking at the officer. He—the only thing I have to do, sign the paper. So he made me wait in there for an hour or so until he decided to sign the paper. And I got them, and I went over there and I start—we go, you know—we went over to the ammo dump to get out ammo. But that was—every time I went over there, every time I had this, it was kind of a—how do you call them? It was kind of a thing that he had for us, that we have to wait, even though he signed the document. But he made us wait. I waited for an hour. I was—I used to smoke, but I quit smoking. Good thing I did. So I waited. I waited in there for this officer to sign the paper and let me go. And then the funny thing about this is—and then we go to the ammo dump, and the ARVNs—which is a regular Vietnamese army—they don't like us at all. So, and then we go in there and this big Deuce-and-a-Half (M35 2½-ton cargo truck) to load up the ammo. And then they used to give us challenges. They used to sort of challenge us. I mean, to get in to some kind of a scheme. It was kinda weird. It was like a—it was sort of a—what you call it—it was a ritual that we have to go through. Every time we go for ammo, we have to go through that ritual. I mean, for these people, they used to tease us. I don't think they want to fight with us, but they were teasing us—doing some karate movements and all that. It was funny. You wouldn't believe it. And that sergeant told me—disregard this, you know, I forgot the name of—I can't remember what the name is. I hope it comes. But he was great. He helped me a lot too, because he's the one that kept me from going—really—I was almost end up in the field, but he said, "I need you in here." So he kept me in the base camp. But we had to—we had to fly sorties, but we also had to go on convoys many, many times to, you know, deliver the ammo. Because all our artillery units were in the field. Some of them were way out in, you know, helicopter flight, but some other ones—the roads were really tough because they have to clear the roads because they had landmines. So we waited for all the traffic. These guys were really smart. When I was in Cần Thơ, we had to cross the river, the Mekong Delta, and go to the field that was miles away. And the roads were really—there was nobody in the road, you see? There were all the—the roads were all—they were not paved—were all like granite compacted. And we're all riding on top of rice paddies in there. And you can see the buffaloes in there, and you can see people, you know, the farmers in there, in the road. But always there was a fear of landmines. So we went over in the road when everything was clear, we thought, and we saw a lot of things in there. We saw buses with civilians, and they're blown up. And we were lucky we never got hit. So we deliver—we have batteries, you know, like—this was Charlie Battery. It was—I can't remember the name of the city that we were located. It was another city. It was rice—it was a rubber plantation. Beautiful—beautiful rubber plantation. I remember, I'll never forget, it was like the French left it in there. It was really incredible. And the roads were amazing. I mean, the roads were not amazing. It's just that the scenery around us, because we were in a base camp all the time, to go out in the field and take a risk, It was something else. I mean, sort of like, I want to get outta here, I wanna see something else. But you saw a lot of, you know, a lot of bad things in the road too. Yeah. 00:28:54.025 --> 00:29:00.605 How did you stay in touch with family and friends? Did you choose to keep communication with them while deployed? 00:29:00.605 --> 00:29:22.345 Yeah. My parents were in Chile, South America—all of them. So they really suffered from this. They weren't too appreciative, I guess, that I made the choice to, you know, stay and serve. So that was really hard for my parents—where we come from a large family, seven kids. 00:29:22.345 --> 00:29:28.244 Was there something that you did for good luck while you were in Vietnam? 00:29:28.244 --> 00:30:38.424 I tried to be good with the—oh, yeah—I always like people, you know, even though I'm not an Army type to be rough and tough. So I'm always being—what do you call that—I thought about the other people. Like, you know, I was a Sergeant in charge of a guard, and I tried to treat my, you know, my people with a lot of respect. Not treating my, you know—I never wanted to feel like I was in command. I feel more like I want to be their friend. So I used to bring them—when we were in the—we have like a guard duty. I was—because I was an NCO—I was in charge of the whole platoon that was in front on the foxholes and also in the shelters in the front of—we were guarding a big airfield in Cần Thơ. And I always brought them, you know, food, make sure they weren't sleepy at night and all that. So trying to make things easy on them. And that was the most rewarding thing to me, that they feel comfortable with me. So, they feel trusted, you know? 00:30:38.424 --> 00:30:44.845 Do you recall any particularly unusual events while you were in Vietnam? 00:30:44.845 --> 00:33:02.615 Yep. I'll never forget this one here. When I was in—we were supposed to guard an airfield in Cần Thơ. This was the landing pad. And we had all the Cobra helicopters (Bell AH-1 Cobra), so we had to protect all that area. But we were right in the front of the airfield, which was facing the jungle. And we have towers in there, and we have satellites on top—scopes. So I have a kid up there that was calling me that was scared. So, and then I went over there and it was raining. And it was raining so high that I almost got washed off. I didn't want to take the Jeep around it. So I left the Jeep. I had a Jeep, and I have all my—what do you call—black light. I mean, have all my, the lights down, you know, the—what do you call them? I forgot the name of—you keep all your lights on it on the—there's a switch, it turns the lights off, and they go into a nocturnal—what do you call—thing. So in case you cannot be seen. So I left the jeep behind, and I got in the—I started walking on it—and I almost got washed off in the perimeter in there to the barbed wire. I got up in there, and then somehow we got—started getting some sniper fire from the outside. And I had a kid on this tower—30 feet tall tower—and he—this guy jumped down and he didn't break his leg. He panic. He jumped from this tower. Would you believe that? I was scared too, because I was washed off. I almost lost my M16 because I carrying a weapon—and I carry also since Sergeant guard usually carries a .45 (.45 caliber handgun). And I said, I was glad that I made it. I mean, I just got to the barbed wire, held on until the water run—and I got up and I went and take a look at this kid that—he jumped all the way from 30 feet up, and he didn't break his legs. And I said, "Well, stay here. We're gonna stay here." And that was about the most scary thing that I ever had, you know? And this kid had jump, he panicked because they shot at him. He was shot—up in the tower. Instead of staying there—there was sandbags, but he was scared and he couldn't handle it. 00:33:02.615 --> 00:33:06.994 Could you tell me about the story of you sleeping on a truck? 00:33:06.994 --> 00:34:57.824 Well, when we got to our new base camp—from Northern Vietnam we went down to south—we end up in Cần Thơ and, we end up this—Cần Thơ was—at the airfield only, there was not pretty well established yet. So what they did—from the Mekong Delta, they used to suck up all the sand from the Mekong Delta and make a plateau. That was a basic base for the base camp—for this new landing strip. So there was absolutely nothing in there. So we end up in tents and it was raining. And the tents, you can't even walk inside because it was mud in the floor, and we have cots. So I decided to sleep in the—I slept in the in the Deuce-and-a-Half—that was my supply truck. And I spent in there three months sleeping in the truck. And I enjoyed it, because all the other people were on the—you know—wet tents and the floor—because we were—there was no floor. And I was sleeping in the truck in the front for three months. I slept in the Deuce. And that was tough. It was hard because it has a canvas—padding is canvas and metal. There's a thing in the middle. And there, I never forget it, It was my friendly thing. It was a metal piece that was hitting me in the back every night (laughs)—there was a division in between the two seats. And after that we slept until I left we have tents. And the plan was to build hooches, as they call 'em. You know, there were like, buildings on top of, you know, about a foot or two off the ground. And they were with mosquito nets. And that was another issue that mosquitoes will eat you alive. I had all these issues with them (laughs). Yeah, it was tough. 00:34:57.824 --> 00:35:06.525 So, towards the end of your service, do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you when your service ended? 00:35:06.525 --> 00:36:08.000 I was in—I was a—still—they gave me—actually before my ending my service, they gave us two weeks off. But my two weeks off, I didn't have to do absolutely nothing. But I have to do one thing: guard duty. So I have to pull every day guard. That was a break. So I slipped—I could do whatever I wanna do during the daytime, but in the base camp, like in Cần Thơ, it was not too much to do. I mean, there was a little town in there. I didn't care too much about it to go to town. There was a—what is it called—the—my goodness, I forgot the name of the club for the Armed Forces, where they used to serve beer and hamburgers. And, they used to cook for us. And then that was in a little town. And that was the—oh my goodness, I can't remember—that was one of the services the Armed Forces provided for us. It was outside, like in a big town like Saigon, they will have like a—it's like a club— 00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:09.755 —Like an enlisted club? 00:36:09.755 --> 00:36:45.065 Yeah. But it's—yes. Only for the Armed Forces. And they'll have, you know, drinks, like—not alcoholic—like coke, you could have a hamburger, and they have like a day room that you can probably sit and read. And that was the city of Cần Thơ. And that was one of the places—but I stayed mostly in the base camp. And when I was getting short, I became a little more coward because I want to live. So I didn't wanna expose myself too much. 00:36:45.065 --> 00:36:45.844 Did you— 00:36:45.844 --> 00:36:58.585 —You know what I mean? I mean, it's not being a coward, it just self preservation. I say, if I survive this for so long, I want to be here. You know, I don't want to take a chance going to town and, you know, being a fool, you know? 00:36:58.585 --> 00:37:03.284 Did you return home or where did you go? 00:37:03.284 --> 00:37:41.275 When I—end the term of the service term, I end up in the San Francisco area. There was an Air Force base that we did the ETS, because that was the end of the term. And my plan was to go back to L.A.—Los Angeles—and, you know, finish my college—that was my first goal. And probably return home—I was born in Chile—to see my family that I didn't—I didn't see them for about six years. So that my first goal was to go there. 00:37:41.275 --> 00:37:46.684 What was it like for you when you stepped foot back in the United States in San Francisco? 00:37:46.684 --> 00:38:50.704 Oh, I was—well, people were kissing the ground, you know. They were, I saw it. The people, some GIs that went down on their feet. I saw them. All the ones that—there was a really bad attitude too. Most of the people didn't want to go back to their families, you know, I don't know why. That was really bad. I noticed that I—what are you gonna do? Because I met a lot of guys in there. They said, "Well, I don't want to go. I have some issue with my family." So some of them said, "What are you gonna do? I'm gonna stay in San Francisco—in here." And it was a really strange attitude. I can tell you. I mean, I said, "You're not close with them? You don't have no family?" "No, I don't get along with them," and so forth. So that was really sad to hear that. And some people—I don't know why—I guess the war makes you strange too. You know, people—I don't know—it was like a demise on everything. I know I want to see my family. That was the first thing. Because, you know, I was drafted outta college and I wanted—and I didn't see my parents for almost six years. They were in South America. They were in Chile. So I said that was my main goal: to go and see them. 00:38:50.704 --> 00:38:54.684 How were you received by your family and community upon returning? 00:38:54.684 --> 00:39:27.744 Oh my God—they wouldn't let me come back. Yeah, yeah. And I end up in summer in South America's. It's just beautiful, especially Chile—you know, we're a big family. So I end up—I didn't want to come back—but I said I got my things to do. So that was my—I spent about three months in Chile I think after—yeah, three, almost. And, but I want to come back. I wanna finish my school. My goal. That's my whole ideas—and do my thing in here, because I planned that since I was a kid. I always dream about to come here. 00:39:27.744 --> 00:39:32.804 How did you readjust to civilian life? Did you work or go back to school? 00:39:32.804 --> 00:40:02.184 I went back to school and then I start—I went back to school at the beginning. Yes, I did go back to the—I got my GI Bill and I started going to, you know, finish my junior college. That was my first goal—and—which I did. And then, I liked the aerospace industry in defense, so that's what I—that was my goal, too—to go back to work for them. Which I did. 00:40:02.184 --> 00:40:07.264 Did you continue any friendships after service? And if so, for how long? 00:40:07.264 --> 00:43:23.804 You know, I didn't. People were from other states—most of the people that was in Vietnam. I—in fact, it was really strange because I was in Torrance, California, and there was a—in Torrance, California, there's a lot of refineries, and there was a gas station that I used to go—I worked for a company called TRW (Thompson Ramo Wooldridge Inc.), which we did, you know, defense contracts, aerospace, and all that. So this day I stop in this gas station, and guess what? I run in to one of people that I was in Vietnam. He was a mechanic in our motor pool. I used to go over there, and I teased him all the time—he and the sergeant—this guy was a redhead guy, I don't remember his name. And I said, "Do you remember me?" And I see he looked at me and I said, you remember such and such. And I asked him a question: "What happened to Cần Thơ?" I asked him. "Oh, we got a run in here in Tet Offensive. We did well." Because I left before the Tet Offensive. But there was not a—what do you call—there was not a contact. I said—I wish the guy would say, "Hey, let's get together or something." It was like, "Hey, see you now. See you later." You know, that was the only thing. So there was a lot of camaraderie when I was there. You know, people—in fact, when I was in Vietnam, you know what I did outta ammunition boxes? I helped to build a bar. I built a bar myself with a sergeant that, I can't remember his name. He was my protege. Big guy. He was from the south, like I said, again—and I hope I remember his name, to keep him in record because he was—he helped me a lot. So, our ammunition boxes for the Howitzers, we filled them up with sand and we built a bar. We built a building. We put a building. And I was—my skills, since I was supply, I used to go out and get the plywood. They used to have a plywood where they put the sorties when they put the ammo in the helicopter. They have two holes on the side. They brought probably six by six planks—you probably remember those (points at interviewer)—and then I did the roof with that. And then we got some—I guess—some plastic roofing from dealing with—I used to trade C-rations for all these items that we are speaking of. And there was some guy that knew a carpenter out of town in Cần Thơ. He built the bar out of the plywood we got. So we built a beautiful bar out of that. And I never forget that one. And in the front, we have a muzzle of a Howitzer. That was our—the symbol of artillery right in there, I never forget. I got pictures. I think I got the pictures. I don't think that I have the pictures, because I lost—all those pictures that I took in that area in Cần Thơ I lost in the camera that I bought. I lost I don't know how many rolls of film I lost, but I had a great time helping. And I have free drinking on that bar until I left. Would you believe that? (Toro laughs.) 00:43:23.804 --> 00:43:27.585 Did you join any veteran organizations? 00:43:27.585 --> 00:46:51.704 No, I didn't. It kind of—you know, I think most of the people who came from Vietnam were kind of ostracized. You remember that? We kinda insulted. 'Cause I get insulted and you—like I mentioned over at—when I left Travis (Travis Air Force Base) up in San Francisco, some guy say something about, Are you the, you know, baby killers or something like that. Twice. I have that—another one in L.A. So sort of lost the—how would you say—the interest, you know? And I didn't want to know anybody. I never mentioned that I was in the Army until they recognized us. You know, people being more onto our side. I felt—I never spoke of it. You know, never even at work—people never. I never talked to my kids about anything. My wife (shakes his head), you know—I think most of the Vietnam veterans, we were sort of sour at the end. Because they got—I saw a lot of heroes. I saw amazing people. You won't believe it. I mean, like, you guys (points at interviewer), like my interviewer in here. You know that—you know—people—amazing. Amazing soldiers and especially infantry. Yeah. I can tell you some issues in there. You wouldn't believe it. There was an infantry unit in—I never forget this one. We were—I was in the—taking a—coming out of the shower, and we had this group of soldiers that came over. They were all infantry. And they have a baboon. This guy had a baboon—they have a monkey. And that monkey was a dog. And these guys were in the field, and these guys were so raggedy—you wouldn't believe it. These guy were like long range patrols. They were like—they called them LRRPs (long-range reconnaissance patrol). I don't know if you heard about them. It's a unit—I guess—and they go at nighttime. They go out of the base camps and they start doing search and destroy. So they see—because usually our base camp was surrounded by—you know, the Viet Cong was out there. And these guys had the monkey—this monkey, this baboon, it was like a dog. He held sense. Anybody moving—there was not—in fact, I remember approaching this monkey, and the NCO told me, Don't get close, he'll get you. It was a great baboon. It's a monkey. And that was a dog—guard dog for these people. It was amazing. And these people were attached. They were not attached to our—the 25th Infantry division that I belonged to—they were not. They were like a bastard battalion. And so they were doing all this reconnaissance, and they were amazing, these people. I can—you know—there were some—there were some good soldiers. And we came back for the really—most of them came back with a really bad attitude, because we were treated like, you remember—I don't know if you guys know—probably we treated a little like we didn't—we were not wanted. Yeah. But they recognized us—luckily—later on, they recognized us—you know, Vietnam veterans. But most of them, they really—we were really sour, all of the ones that I knew. So I hide my identity. Yeah, I was in the army, but I never mentioned that. What do you call that? I was—that I served in Vietnam and so forth. And people didn't care really. You know, the new generation. My kids never ask me until later on about what that—what you did, what you went through. 00:46:51.704 --> 00:46:58.284 How has your service impacted your life, your community, your faith, and your family? 00:46:58.284 --> 00:48:27.875 I makes—I think of, you know—at the beginning after coming out, you know, you don't have a sense of pride. You became—you have a sense of pride after people recognize you. That's the only problem. You feel more guilty—you know—at the beginning when you get out because, you know, we not recognized. So there was an effort, you know, for them to say, "Hey, you know, thanks for your service." I started getting the thanks for your service later on in life, you know—way back. And mostly the people that approached me were veterans. You know, that they told us that. People—you know, the American soldiers are amazing. I tell you that—what I saw in Vietnam. To survive all that junk we went through and then not be recognized—and then left the country like that. That's the thing. It hurts the most, you know, being like treated the way they treated the people. They—you know—people like the soldiers—the American soldiers, I mean—the kids were great, but the attitude—the outside attitude was really bad. It was really bad toward us. And that's what it really hurt—a lot of people. I mean, we were doing what the country ask you for, you know, but they—you go and serve and do the best you can, and then you come all out like we were—actually, you remember My Lai (The My Lai massacre) and all that—like we were criminals. 00:48:27.875 --> 00:48:33.405 What are some life lessons you've learned from military service? 00:48:33.405 --> 00:49:20.554 I guess the friendship. There's a lot of friendship, you know, in there. Sometimes you don't feel like all by yourself. You know, that. And also it used a little discipline, because there was a lot of kids when I was in the army—I was in Fort Ord—that they were in trouble with the law somehow. And they were near serving because of that. You know, in my training unit in Fort Ord, they were a lot of kids that were—what they call them—Cat 4?. They have a name—I think category four. So these guys were—somehow they have some trouble with the law. So they have a choice either to serve or to end up in jail. And they were young kids. They were not adults—you know, in the eighteens. Yeah. 00:49:20.554 --> 00:49:29.005 What message would you like to leave for future generations who will view and hear this interview? 00:49:29.005 --> 00:50:04.465 Oh, the experience teach you—I learned one thing that—to survive, that's the thing. You have to survive. And you know, when you are in the war and you're—and you have to serve—you have to survive. And there's not too much you can do. And what you can do for yourself is be yourself. Because nobody else—when you're in a situation—as my interviewer knows too—at this point I'm gonna use that as—you are the only one in there. You. And you can't count on anybody else. 00:50:04.465 --> 00:50:05.000 How did—(Toro and Beyer accidentally speak simultaneously.) 00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:05.989 —Excuse me— 00:50:05.989 --> 00:50:06.000 Sorry. 00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:26.704 You can't count on anybody else, but you know that you're supported. But that is your life at stake in there. I mean, you're the only one that can—you know, you don't know what is gonna happen in that moment. I mean, you look for the risk, but the only things you think at that time are you, you know? How you gonna react to this? That's what I'm trying to say. 00:50:26.704 --> 00:50:33.125 How did you become associated with the San Marcos community? 00:50:33.125 --> 00:50:51.295 Well, was through my neighbor, Jason. He brought me to this in here, because I never thought I was gonna be interviewed. He's a former also gallant Armed Forces. He served many conflicts. 00:50:51.295 --> 00:51:05.074 Thank you for taking the time to share your recollections of military service. Is there anything you've always wanted to share about your service or veteran experience that you never have? 00:51:05.074 --> 00:52:18.074 Well, like I said, I wish if I could remember the names, but there's a lot of—you know, I think I had a—at the beginning, you know, in basic training, I made a lot of good friends. You know, and then they departed all their ways. I don't remember their names, but I have some pictures that you have—some other records in there. I think my interviewer has a picture of it. He was a—great people. I met some fine people. And when I was in Fort Ord, I did—and when I was also overseas and in Vietnam, I did meet a lot of people who had a lot of fun—especially on night times in our hooch—(laughs)—when they have the beer parties in there, and we used to—what do you call the, you know—I was very conservative. I don't gamble. And so I used to send all my money to my bank in L.A.—(laughs)—all the little that I earned. But the other—my older friends that used to love—they used do to a lot of gambling in there. My God, it was amazing. They have a lot of fun in between the beers and the—we had a lot of great time in the Hooch. That was the best time in the—the comradery. Yeah. In Vietnam. Yeah, there was a lot of that. And the biggest gamblers were the cooks—(laughs)—that's what I remember. 00:52:18.074 --> 00:52:23.684 What do you wish more people knew about veterans? 00:52:23.684 --> 00:52:29.295 What they going through. Yeah. What they going through. 00:52:29.295 --> 00:52:31.005 Could you elaborate on that? 00:52:31.005 --> 00:53:55.985 I mean, the do's and don'ts. The way you lose your freedom. You're not anymore in charge you of your future. I mean, someone else got your hands on. So that was my only thing—you know—you gotta serve and you're not an instrument, but you are a tool—you know, to help, I guess, the conflict. But they—you don't have too much to say. Some people are—they're born to be a soldier and—you know—and they're strong. And some people, they're a little in between. They're more—I guess, a pacifier—pacifist. And those are the ones that have a hard time. But they all serve. And that is a—that is a difficult time. I mean, for the people that don't have the—even though if you're brave, you have your feelings. I mean, you know, when danger is—your life at a stake—you know, the bravery, it counts—but you know that, Hey, I gotta survive this one. And some people are a little weak, and those are the ones that suffer. And they have to be protected because they're not meant to serve, but they served. And I see a lot of people like that. They served and they were—they—I mean—they were not happy they were doing—but they served. 00:53:55.985 --> 00:54:05.445 In your unveiling of the journey, what are the lessons learned from your military experience? 00:54:05.445 --> 00:55:20.735 Well, they teach you—I think they make you more independent too—I think. But being independent is very difficult. You know, after my two years, I didn't know what to do because I've been always, you know, four square meals a day. So I have a little conflict in there. So you gotta get out of that one and say, What am I gonna do now that I'm outside. But I already was outside, you know? I was drafted when I was already working and I had my own—so I have my goals. So I think for younger people it's more difficult. They were 18 and they—they have some conflict—that's why they end up in the armed forces—and they'll be very difficult to readjust. And those are the ones that I saw. And when I left the Armed Services and I was up in my ETS—end of the term of my service—they didn't know what to do with themselves. Yeah. That was one of the things that I was really sad. And I was more mature, I guess—my age. I was 25 when I left. I was 24 when I got drafted—26 I got—actually, I'm sorry I'm changing. It was almost 27 when I end my—my ETS was 27. So I was a little more mature, so I see the weight—but those people, they have a very difficult time to adjust. I know that. 00:55:20.735 --> 00:55:22.445 Thank you for your time today. 00:55:22.445 --> 00:55:23.945 Okay, thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the &#13 ; creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also &#13 ; understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security &#13 ; numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.xml ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Toro, Albert F. Interview November 15th, 2024 Description An account of the resource Albert F. Toro is a Chilean American who served in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War, reaching his highest rank of E5 Sergeant. Toro described being drafted and deployed to Vietnam. As a Supply Noncommissioned Officer (NCO), Toro provided artillery units in combat zones with ammunition and food. Toro shared his life story as both an immigrant and veteran, including the ostracization and shame many veterans experienced upon their return from Vietnam. This oral history interview explores topics such as comradery, independence, military training, mentorship, college, recreation, fear, immigration, and veteran recognition. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-073 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-15 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Albert F. Toro Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Marilyn Huerta Adel Bautista Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army—Veterans Vietnamese Conflict, 1961–1975 Veterans—United States—Chile United States. Army—Noncommissioned officers Fort Ord (Calif.) Travis Air Force Base (Calif.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vietnam Chile United States Santiago (Chile) Monterey Peninsula (Calif.) Tan Son Nhut (Vietnam) Saigon (Vietnam) Củ Chi (Vietnam) Cần Thơ (Vietnam) South Vietnam Mekong Delta (Vietnam) South America San Francisco (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Torrance (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Albert F. Toro License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Community history Latine experience San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5f846d16b07cebe79f32b0e45a368b9e.tif 2de5aca49a45a8348cb1dcebbdcc8698 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Basic Training Description An account of the resource Toro posing with Andy Andersen at basic training at Fort Ord, California Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 30, 1967 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/fbcf4960aa752901686449e33cff8717.tif 155c9148bb02fd3ecd0a197a0c648fe8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tent in Cu Chi Description An account of the resource Toro and Corporal Roe in a tent in Cu Chi, Vietnam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a588aabe1d226388f4983ea8249f9758.tif d93b145d903fe6830646784328e9fa32 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Service delivery Description An account of the resource A service delivery truck to the mess hall in Cu Chi, Vietnam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5894ee2e456478b2e7e86e9f2361196c.tif ca6ed40adfd5448fa6a719e2377265aa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ammunition dump Description An account of the resource Toro posing at an ammunition dump during monsoon season in Cu Chi, Vietnam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a30d54045801a0c1837a2742d3be288a.tif fdab3f6b39663a46820747cbda9d5575 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Deploying to Can Tho, Vietnam Description An account of the resource Toro leaving Cu Chi and deploying to Can Tho, Vietnam on a U.S. Navy Landing Ship, Tank (LST) in Newport, Saigon, Vietnam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b4543b8b9ac018a53964a556750b00fe.tif f084653b48ee3a24975630c358b6e1e6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Navy Landing Ship, Tank (LST) Description An account of the resource A U.S. Navy Landing Ship, Tank (LST) in Newport, Saigon, Vietnam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6b0e3bc3a4aece457f1d723baed53d26.tif 6cc59aead9a00cd648f1372d90658ed5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Deploying to Can Tho 2 Description An account of the resource Leaving Saigon and deploying to Can Tho on a U.S. Navy LST, Saigon, Vietnam Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource August, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2438aa7f1badf5931265ad8b288486da.tif 29af91310fe939af5b45556c25df127e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living quarters Description An account of the resource Living quarters tents in Can Tho, Vietnam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/cbf1f1370ae73210fbb657ce6c80c217.tif 86c759e0d0b39f2ae6eb962f844f0014 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Army Howitzer Description An account of the resource Toro posing with a U.S. Army Howitzer in Can Tho, Vietnam, Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource September, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1129569059db11422fc03bfa98cd9691.tif b32cfbcf58613dfe4fe5b7045bc2139c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource River patrol boat Description An account of the resource A U.S. Navy River Patrol boat on the Mekong River Delta Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August, 1968 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Description An account of the resource Ten photos related to the oral history of Albert F. Toro. Photograph #1 depicts Toro posing with Andy Andersen at basic training at Fort Ord, California, 1967. Photograph #2 depicts Toro and Corporal Roe in a tent in Cu Chi, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #3 depicts a service delivery truck to the mess hall in Cu Chi, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #4 depicts Toro posing at an ammunition dump during monsoon season in Cu Chi, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #5 depicts Toro leaving Cu Chi and deploying to Can Tho, Vietnam on a U.S. Navy Landing Ship, Tank (LST) in Newport, Saigon, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #6 depicts a U.S. Navy LST in Newport, Saigon, Vietnam, 1968 . Photograph #7 depicts leaving Saigon and deploying to Can Tho on a U.S. Navy LST, Saigon, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #8 depicts living quarters tents in Can Tho, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #9 depicts Toro posing with a U.S. Army Howitzer in Can Tho, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #10 depicts a U.S. Navy River Patrol boat on the Mekong River Delta, 1968. Click on the thumbnails to view the full images in more detail. Title A name given to the resource Toro, Albert F. Photographs, Various dates. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1967 - 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0d373a6360c40c8b8d7efbbccfac3a2d.pdf 1f8b1ac558b508d18aa51c9e6a69f7b1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Toro, Albert. Interview Transcript, November 15, 2024 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Albert F. Toro Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Adel Bautista Marilyn Huerta Justin Gans Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Albert F. Toro Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_transcript License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Description An account of the resource Albert F. Toro is a Chilean American who served in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War, reaching his highest rank of E5 Sergeant. Toro described being drafted and deployed to Vietnam. As a Supply Noncommissioned Officer (NCO), Toro provided artillery units in combat zones with ammunition and food. Toro shared his life story as both an immigrant and veteran, including the ostracization and shame many veterans experienced upon their return from Vietnam. This oral history interview explores topice such as comradery, independence, military training, mentorship, college, recreation, fear, immigration, and veteran recognition. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vietnam Chile United States Santiago (Chile) Monterey Peninsula (Calif.) Tan Son Nhut (Vietnam) Saigon (Vietnam) Củ Chi (Vietnam) Cần Thơ (Vietnam) South Vietnam Mekong Delta (Vietnam) South America San Francisco (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Torrance (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army—Veterans Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 Veterans—United States—Chile United States. Army—Noncommissioned officers Fort Ord (Calif.) Travis Air Force Base (Calif.) Community history Latine experience San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steve Wagner OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Stone Brewing Company;Brewing history;Brewers;San Diego breweries;IPA OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Wagner, Steve. Interview October 24, 2018. SC027-064 01:00:20 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Stone Brewing Company ; Brewing history ; Brewers ; San Diego breweries ; IPA Steve Wagner Judith Downie audio 1.0:|18(14)|35(14)|50(7)|62(19)|73(3)|91(19)|104(5)|128(4)|146(11)|162(19)|175(12)|196(3)|208(16)|227(11)|244(8)|265(16)|290(2)|310(11)|322(7)|343(9)|360(13)|375(11)|390(12)|413(13)|427(3)|444(5)|463(15)|477(15)|493(19)|505(13)|523(17)|540(9)|568(4)|591(3)|613(16)|629(11)|637(10)|654(5)|669(14)|684(6)|699(10)|721(10)|739(6)|754(15)|773(2)|787(16)|803(15)|820(9)|842(6)|856(5)|875(17)|896(12)|918(19)|933(7)|945(10)|966(14)|986(15)|998(10)|1016(10)|1030(6)|1036(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4c12a198b29a2ac447131d9f6636ed05.mp3 Other audio Oral history Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Judith Downie: Today is October 24th, 2018. Judith Downie interviewer for the CSUSM Brewchive® with Steve Wagner, co-founder and co-owner of Stone Brewing. Steve Wagner: (Aside to office staff) Okay. Don't have to worry about that. Alright, great. Downie: So if you will first state your name and position. Wagner: Okay. This is Steve Wagner, I am the cofounder and president of Stone Brewing Company. Downie: Okay. And so if we could get into a little bit of your own background, what the path that led you to Stone would be very informative. Wagner: Yes, absolutely. My story starts in Evanston, Illinois suburb of Chicago where I was born. 1958 and my parents had attended Northwestern University. So, I grew up in the Chicago area until I was about 10 years old and my family moved to Los Angeles, California. My father took a job with Mattel Toy Company , which was very exciting for me and my brothers. In fact, I think that's where my first entrepreneurial venture was. I would get some of the new Hot Wheels™ cars before they were released and I would sell them to my school mates, at highly inflated prices because they were collecting them and they could get them before they came out. Downie: Yeah, hot demand for something nobody else had. Boy, you were doing it… Wagner: It was better, I made more money than the lemonade stand. I'll put it that way. Downie: Now of course, did you ever get into trouble for doing that either from Mattel or from the school because you were conducting business on school property? Wagner: Nope. Never got caught. So, okay, let's see. So, interests before brewing. While I was a lifelong musician, I started studying piano growing up in Chicago. When I think when I was six years old, I started taking piano lessons and played all the way through high school, had some incredible teachers and actually in high school I started playing some guitar and bass and started playing in some bands, some high school bands. And then, college I went to UC Santa Cruz. So, I was an English lit major and still played some music, with some friends and things. And then after college I moved back to Los Angeles and I was working in some restaurants and, you know, basically trying to figure out what to do and ended up meeting some other musicians at a party and we decided to form a band. And that was the beginning of the Balancing Act, which was the, I guess you'd say, the most successful band I was in. We ended up self-producing our first record and putting it out on our own label. So again, some, good entrepreneurial experience. Downie: So was this an LP? Wagner: It was an EP actually , an extended play. It was six songs I believe were on it. Just vinyl, this was right before CDs kind of became the new format. And, yeah, it was fun and we got some nice critical recognition and acclaim and, you know, played a lot in, in Southern California. And then, we actually got signed to I.R.S. records, which was a pretty cool record label at that time. And we ended up recording and releasing two albums for that label. Got to tour all over the US multiple times and every college town now I think in the US. (laughs) Those were our people. Downie: And so this was still as The Balancing Act? Wagner: Yes. Yep. And so, yeah, it was, it was a really great experience and it was four of us and we all wrote songs and sang. It was very much a collective and we had a lot of fun. Yeah, let's see. So, then I started, uh, I think that band, eventually we went our separate ways and I played in some other groups, a band in LA called the Bedshredders and another band called Walker Stories. I did some studio work and played, you know, played on recordings for other people and things like that. But I was kind of at that point thinking, okay, I was, I got married. I was not that keen to go back out on tour and on the road and do things like that. So, I was trying to think of what the next step in my career would be. And one of the guys in, actually I played with in both the Bedshredders and Walker Stories invited me over to do some homebrewing at his house. He was a homebrewer and I went over and did that and was immediately captivated by the process of brewing your own beer. I was already a beer fan and I mean, my touring days, you know, you'd always get, the band would get, a case of beer and I’d like try to get them to give us something, you know, a little out of the ordinary or something local. But there wasn't much choice in those days, but still enjoyed it. Downie: This would have been about what year? Wagner: This was the mid to late eighties, early nineties. Downie: So craft brewing is just starting to get a hold in places? Wagner: Yeah, you know, Sierra Nevada was around, but I think they were still really only California probably. Yeah, there were a few other things, but not much. So, let's see. So, yeah, I started homebrewing on my own ‘cause I wanted to do it more often and you know, really read up and studied as much as I could about it and brewed a lot and joined some Homebrew clubs in Los Angeles and really tried to learn as much as I could about it and do it in my spare time . And, as part of that journey, I wanted to, they were offering classes at (University of California) Davis in Northern California, extension classes on advanced home brewing and sensory evaluation of beer. And so I decided to make the trip up there one weekend to, you know, try to learn some more and check out the school up there. And so I went, I think on a Friday there was an advanced home brewing class that I went to and then on Saturday it was the sensory evaluation of beer class. And I look across the room and I see this long-haired guy and I go, ‘Wait a minute, that's my rock and roll landlord, Greg Koch.’ And it was funny, you know, I didn't, it was out of context and I think it took me a little while to figure out who it was and I'm like, ‘Oh yeah’, ‘cause we didn't know each other that well. We were acquaintances. Because he tells the story, he didn't know me that well ‘cause my band actually paid that rent on time. So, we rented music rehearsal space from his company. Downie: Now this was the LA location? Wagner: Yeah, downtown Los Angeles. Downie: There was a San Francisco location for a while. Wagner: Yeah. This was the downtown Los Angeles location. And so, you know, when we had the first break I went up and said hi and we started talking a little bit and realized we had a mutual interest in beer and craft beer and everything. And it was, it was cool. That as part of the sensory evaluation class, If you were a homebrewer, they said bring your beer and we'll taste it. And I had brought some of my beers and we tasted them and people liked them. Greg really liked them. Ironically, it was, you know, since we were such an anti-fruit beer brewery in the beginning, it was a peach ale that I had made, ‘cause I was actually, one of my side jobs when I was a musician, was working for a farmer who came down for the Santa Monica farmer's market and I would sell his stone fruits, peaches and stuff. And so I got some awesome peaches and I decided to make a beer out of it. So funny. Downie: So leading the way with fruit beer. Wagner: Yup. Yup. And so yeah, I think, you know, that's sort of me running into him there and drinking some beers together and stuff. You know, here this guy was a successful entrepreneur, and I was interested in getting into beer and we, you know, we started talking about maybe we should start our own brewery. I think we were both back in LA and we, you know, we did some home brews together and just kinda hung out together and started talking about things and seeing if we could see a way to do, you know, to start our brewery. So. Downie: Yeah. So Davis I think was in ‘94, ’93? Wagner: ’93 I think. I'm gonna say ‘93. Downie: I've got Greg’s textbooks from that. Wagner: Well we went back for some additional classes too. That might've been in ‘94, but I think that initial one was before that. Downie: So it really considering that Stone itself opened up in mid-year 1996... Wagner: Yeah. Downie: You worked on a pretty fast track to get Stone up and going. It seems like compared to what I'm seeing for some breweries now. Wagner: Yeah. I don't know. It felt like a pretty deliberate track to me ‘cause I actually, you know, in, in between there, I moved up to, had an opportunity to house sit for my brother and his soon to be wife up in Portland because they were taking the better part of a year off as a sabbatical. They both worked for Intel. They needed somebody to house sit for them. And so my wife Laura and I volunteered to go up and do that. And it, part of my thinking was, well, I'll find a job at a brewery up there, you know, get some hands-on experience and really make sure I, I enjoy the work and, you know, am as passionate about the work as I think I would be, you know. Yeah, so I think that was Spring of ‘94 that we moved up there and landed a job brewing for Pyramid shortly thereafter. Up in Kalama, Washington, you know, 30-minute commute North of Portland. And yeah, started, I mean I think I had two weeks of training and then they handed me the keys for the midnight night shift, the lone brewer in this pretty sizable plant at that point I was like, “Wow, this is happening pretty fast.’ But uh, Downie: How big was Pyramid? How many barrels do you remember? Wagner: I think they did about 90,000 barrels when I was there in ‘90. I was there through fall of ‘95, I guess. So, a little over a year, year and a half of it. It was great experience and I really loved, loved the work. You know, just the hands on of brewing and being part of a brewery like that. I had a lot of great mentors that I was able to learn a lot from . It was everything I had hoped it would be. In fact, I enjoyed it so much. I was happy to just keep working there. And eventually Greg got impatient like, ’Are we gonna do this or what?’ But I was like, ‘I don't know, I've enjoyed living in Portland.’ Downie: Yeah, it’s beautiful up there. Wagner: I’m enjoying working for a brewery, but you know, I realized ‘Yeah if we're going to do this, we need to do it.’ So, you know, so in some ways to me that seems like a longer timeline because I actually, you know, took the time to go get some hands-on experience and do that rather than just, ah, you know (inaudible). Downie: That was a very good deliberate move though to make sure that, you know, it wasn't just the activity of brewing but you could actually face the day-to-day work. Wagner: Yeah. Yup and it really helped me in, you know, shopping for our original equipment and putting the brewery together and how we wanted to do things and Pyramid had a pretty good focus on quality of their beer. And, you know, so that became one of our things at Stone too, was to, to create really consistent beers and beers that had decent shelf life. You know, the people would have the same experience every time they tried one. And that, that ended up being crucial for us because, you know, opening in 1996, that was kinda the beginning of the first shakeout in craft beer where a lot of people had rushed in who maybe didn't have brewing expertise and were looking to be quick buck and stuff. And there was a lot of issues with, you know, bad beer out there that wasn't consistent or had off flavors or different things. And so you know, I think that the time I spent at Pyramid really benefited us. The ability to pull off quality and consistency. So, because you know, when we first opened Stone and go out to try to sell our beer, I mean, Greg was the, you know, he was our lone salesman at the time. That's what I mean, he'd go out or it was all these, a lot of people who didn't want to take craft beer, they said, ‘No, we've done it’s a fad. You know , it's like the beer never tasted the same twice or you couldn't deliver it when we needed it. So we're not doing that anymore, you know?’ So that's what we were up against when we started the company. It was possibly the worst possible time to start it. Downie: Well, you sink or swim. Wagner: Yep, exactly. Downie: And so since you've been talking about your education, did you do any other education after opening Stone or were you just so busy with running Stone? Wagner: You know, before we had opened Stone, Greg and I would go to the craft brewers conference, the national conference, the annual conference. So, we would go to that every year. And as part of that, you know, obviously there there's a trade show, but they also do a lot of educational seminars and things like that. So, continued to take advantage of that. Even in the early days we would go to that and helped us keep up with what was happening in, you know, brewing techniques and science and equipment and stuff. Um, I'm trying to remember. I think I might have taken some other classes, but I think they might've been more finance- and accounting-focused because I had sort of assumed that hat in the brewery too, you know. It was interesting the dynamics when you start, at first I felt like all the pressure was on me, you know, to order the brewery equipment, get it installed, get it, get it working, get the beer to where I want it, you know, get the beer brewed and then all of a sudden all the pressure shifts to Greg. Right. It's like, ‘Well, here's all these kegs. You better go sell it.’ (Wagner and Downie laugh.) And to his credit, you know, he did it. But at that time, you know, maybe I was only brewing once a week or something. So, I took on the task of, you know, the invoices are coming in and collecting payments and paying our vendors and doing all that and just getting into the, you know, the accounting, finance end of it. And uh, never had really had experience doing that. But I kind of learned by doing and I realized I enjoyed being familiar with the numbers and understanding what was happening to the company, financially. So I really, you know, kind of had a… Downie: Somebody who got to watch those numbers. Wagner: Yes. Yup. It was important. Downie: So that does kind of answer down here in the Stone section. I did ask about your role in Stone's early years besides brewing. And of course, I have photographs from Greg's collection of all of you doing stuff. You know, building and you know, moving equipment and all that sort of thing. Wagner: Yeah. ‘Cause you know Greg had construction experience from building his rehearsal studio and that sort of stuff. So, he, he was very savvy with contractors and how to do that kind of stuff. So I focused more on, you know, figuring out the right brewery equipment for us and finding the best deal on that and getting it shipped. And he did a lot of the, you know, the construction stuff that we needed at the brewery, the trench drains, the different things. Downie: Was there ever a discussion between you and Greg about how the jobs were going to fall out or you just said, Greg, you've got the MBA, you've got , you know, and you just kind of naturally took that on and like you say, you were brewing once a week, so somebody had to deal with the invoicing, and all of the rest. Wagner: You know, there was always more than, you know, there was always too much to do. So it was, it was very much a chip in where you could ever, you could help type of situation, you know, whether it was deliver your keg to a customer who had run out over the weekend or something. You know, we both did a lot of that. You know, I would go out and do sales calls and things too, you know, to, to try to expand our, our impact. Yeah, it's very much a, you do whatever it takes type of thing. Downie: And Pizza Port was the first, in Solana Beach, was the first location to take a keg? Wagner: Yep. Yep. Downie: ‘Cause I've seen the plaque down there. Wagner: Yep. Yep. Greg, he tells a good story about that too. It gave us a very unrealistic view of the distribution business because they came and picked up the first keg ‘cause they wanted to be the first. We are like, ‘Oh this is easy. Everybody just comes to you and gets it.’ Right. Downie: Yeah. There you go. Wagner: That might've been the last time anybody did that. Downie: Other than maybe somebody picked up a keg for their own personal party, you know? Wagner: Yeah. Downie: You know you learn as you go along because that's really, there were so few models for a craft brewery, you know, a smaller brewery. You know, you can't take the models that work for AB (Anheuser Busch) or anybody else and apply them to you. It just doesn't work. Okay. So, um, we'll jump back up the list here. How, how, and why the name Stone Brewing. Oh good. You're laughing. Wagner: You can see the list of the names from the wheat beer that we did. We, we came up with a lot of names and we disagreed quite a bit about names, you know, I think, which was good. It kind of helped us make sure that we came up with something that we both thought was good and that usually it was better than something that only one of us thought was good. So , we went through a lot of lists of names and a lot of rejection of names that that didn't work for us. And, you know, I mean we came up on a deadline, right? We had called our corporation Koochenvagners kind of a play out our two names, but we're coming up to a deadline to, you know, we wanted to release a beer and we didn't have a name yet. And so we're feeling the pressure of that. And I think Greg came in with the name Stone one day. I think he might've had umlauts over it or something like that. (Laughs.) But, but there was something about it that I liked that it was just a simple and kind of classic and, not tied geographically to any place, you know, because we weren't sure we wanted that. We didn't, you know, there already was a San Diego Brewing Company, there already was a San Marcos Brewing Company. We kind of wanted to do something different. So, and I think also it stimulated a lot of kind of creative marketing ideas too. You know, the, you know, that as we thought of things that were made of stone and that the gargoyle kind of came out of that and our, you know, original tap handles were beach stones that we'd collect at the beach, which is probably illegal now, but we don't do it anymore. Yeah. It's funny because one of the (laughs) Downie: Probably the statute of limitations is out by now. Wagner: We started draft only, so we didn't have bottles, but one of the, the ideas that I came up with, you know, as we were thinking of slogans and stuff was, well Greg, our first one was “Welcome to the Stone Age”, you know, which is Greg's, which is kind of clever. I like that one. But I came up with one “Leave no stone unturned”, which we never actually used that. But now it's like a, you know we’re in a lawsuit with Keystone (MillerCoors) about them shortening their name to Stone. Now, they use that actually, which is funny. Downie: Oh, okay. Wagner: (Laughs.) A little side humor here. Downie: You know, that's an old, old, old phrase, you know, whoever decides to trademark gets it. And so you kind of said how the gargoyle because it's made of stone, became the representation. And also there's certainly text on the early bottles explaining, you know, the gargoyle protecting from bad taste and sort of… Wagner: I think we kinda felt like we needed to explain it ‘cause people like thought that it was the devil or something. I don't know what gargoyles actually do. You know, they protect them in their own churches. They protect against evil spirits. And so, you know, Greg and his creative mind kind of turned it into this protecting our beer from the evil spirits of cheap adjuncts and materials. Downie: That's a very good way explain it. Wagner: Yeah. Downie: And to eradicate the devil situation. Um, so, and you kind of talked about dealing with distribution issues. What about dealing with suppliers? I mean , since you were a smaller brewery again. Yeah. And was there much locally available or did you have to go far afield? Wagner: We had to go pretty far afield for, you know, no matter what it was brewing equipment, you know, raw materials. Obviously hops mostly came from, you know, Washington and Oregon. Malted barley came from, you know, Canada or the upper plains States in the US and, uh, even our water came from Colorado probably. (Laughter) Right. Yeah. You know, there were, there were people locally who could do good tradeswork and stuff. You know, we had, we had wonderful, uh, stainless steel welders and plumbers and you know, just great contractors and people to work with here locally in San Diego. But… Downie: But the actual supplies were another story… Wagner: Yep. That comes from the places that, you know, that's, that's tricky when you're not ordering a lot and you're trying to, you know, protect cashflow and things that you could, you know, you can find yourself short sometimes and critical moments. But you know, that's one of the, what are the cool things about craft beer that we found out very early on is that people are very supportive. And fellow brewers, you know, obviously Pizza Port, you know, Gina and Vince (Marsaglia). I mean they had their own brewery and their own place and still they wanted to serve our beer, you know, help us out and just, just passionate about good craft beer. So that's willingness to help and to, you know, sell somebody a bag of malt if they come up short or some hops or things like that. It still carries on to this day, which is pretty incredible. A lot of businesses like that. Downie: Well, I mean, I have the articles, copy of the articles of incorporation for the San Diego Brewers Guild from 1996 with Greg’s signature on it. And so that shows that, you know, early on there was this established environment of work together and cooperate or it's not going to happen, which I think was just really essential to the success of San Diego craft brewing. Wagner: Definitely. Downie: ‘Cause I get, I get that question from people elsewhere. It's like, ‘Well, why San Diego?’ And it's like, well I know that they've always collaborated with each other. When you don't fight with each other, you can spend your energy doing better things, hopefully surviving, you know. And so, how has your role changed over the years? You know, I mean early on you were, you know, were of course doing the brewing, but when I talked to you one time I asked when was the last time you brewed and you just kind of went, ‘I don’t know.’ Wagner: I am actually brewing tomorrow. Downie: Oh good! Good for you. Wagner: Probably ‘cause you asked me that. I'm like, gosh, it's been too long. Downie: You have to get back to your roots once in a while. Wagner: Yeah, definitely. Um, so let's see. How has my role changed? Yeah, I mean like in the, you know, in the early years, besides doing , I mean for the first six months or so, I did all the production work, you know, the brewing, the filtering, the packaging, everything, and then, you know, gradually was able to get some part time help and, you know, because I ended up managing the distribution part of things, you know, just the, the logistics and the managing the drivers and the warehouse. You know, as we started to add people. At first I think we just had drivers pull the beer and load their own truck and um, you know, manage the flow of invoicing and payments, and then accounts receivable, accounts payable, Human Resources. And to start doing that, you know, I was doing payroll and everything. So kind of doing all the operations and back office stuff. While Greg was out selling and he, you know, continued to create marketing momentum for us with all of his great ideas and things. Downie: So at what point did you formalize the HR and like release doing the payroll and things like that? Wagner: Yeah, I mean, we didn't, yeah, we probably waited too long to get some professional HR help. Yeah, at one point, I promoted my assistant, I had a kind of an assistant who was, you know, sort of an office manager type person to doing payroll and of some of the basic HR filings and stuff like that. But, yeah, I'm trying to remember how that transitioned exactly. But gradually we, we realized, you know, that it's a, it's something that needs to be done by the book and you know, somebody needs to pay attention to it very carefully. And so, we started hiring professional folks to do that. Downie: There are so many facets besides the brewing that, you know, really have legal ramifications if nothing else. And then, you know, employee climate. Wagner: Yup. Downie: Do you want to make sure you're doing things right and your employees are happy? Wagner: Yeah, absolutely. Wagner: So, yeah. Um, yeah, that's, that's one area that's gotten a lot more complex and difficult in the 22 years that we've been in business too. You know, plus as your company grows there, you know, a lot more rules and laws come into play. Right. When you're smaller kind of, you know, when you're under 10 people, it's pretty simple. When you're between 10 and 50, it gets more complex once you’re over 50 that it's, you know, you get the whole rule book thrown it. It was a lot to keep track of and lots to make sure you're doing right. Downie: Well, something I've gotten a sense of from just the photographs I was going through to scan for the documentary (The Beer Jesus from America), it seemed like there were a lot of events for employees. You know, either charity events like Dye Your Head Red. Um, there was also something where people had green hair at one point? Wagner: Well, we were doing it, I don't know if we did it every year, but at one point we're doing it every other year and we would change the color each time we did it. So, it would kind of rotate between blue, red, or green. Downie: Okay. I haven't seen any blue hair photographs, but there's a very distinct one where Lee Chase was walking around and obviously they had had to bleach his hair white in order to dye it green and it was up in what I call ‘the Smurf comb up’, you know, and it's like, wow, that's, that's really throwing himself into the green hair thing. But it seemed like it was something that the employees could get into and have some fun. But you also had a charity element. So, did Stone have a charity element from the beginning? Wagner: Uh, from our, yeah, I mean, because, you know, we, we realized early on, it's one of the best ways to get your brewery name out there is that, you know, California law allows brewers to donate beer to charities for their events. And so , um, you know, that became our grassroots marketing. We didn't have money to spend on marketing. You know, we're not buying advertising or anything. We still don't do that. But it was a low-cost way to get out there and tell our story, you know. So, we would, um, donate beer to these events and then we'd go and set up a booth and you know, pour the beer and tell people about us. And, uh, you know, it was just word of mouth that, you know, it's great, ‘cause people get sample the beer and taste and decide if they like it, but also they see you're out supporting the community in supporting nonprofits and things. So it was really an effective way to, to market and grow our company. And it's, you know, just sort of something Greg and I like to do anyways, you know, be involved in. Downie: Yeah. And it certainly has established a model where you see a lot of that going on now with even the very tiny, tiny craft breweries, which is wonderful. You know, charities need all the help they can get. Wagner: So that was the sort of the turning point was, I guess it was our second anniversary ‘cause our first anniversary we just had it within the brewery, you know, our licensed operations area. ‘Cause it was, you know, pretty small and we didn't charge admission or anything. And, but then the second year we, you know, we wanted to make it bigger and have more people and so to do, in order to do that you have to partner with a charity. They have to pull a special one-day license to allow you to, we wanted to take over a little bit in the parking lot to have our anniversary. And so that's kind of what started it. You know, we went to the, to the mayor I think in San Marcos and said, you know, we need a charity partner that we can partner with to do this anniversary party that we want to do. They said, ‘You know, Boys and Girls Club San Marcos is best organization in town. So why don’t you talk to them?’ That's, you know, they ended up getting me on the Board of Directors for 10 years there. A couple, couple terms as chair of the board and we continue to support them because it's a, you know, great organization that's doing wonderful work for them, the youth of San Marcos. Downie: So there are so many, how do you spread yourself and how do you choose between all of these very deserving causes? Wagner: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does get difficult. And so we're kind of in the mode now or, I mean the good news is that there's a lot more brewers in town too. So, it's like if we say we, you know, we're already supporting the maximum number of organizations we can right now. We can't take on another one, but here's some other great local brewers that would likely be happy to support them. Downie: Again, part of that collaboration and directing people, you know, whenever I worked with somebody and I can't give them what they need in the way of research help, I try to get them somewhere where they can. I mean that's just, I think that's just good humanity if nothing else. So excellent. Wagner: But that was kind of where it turned from, you know, us supporting the nonprofits by donating beer to them, to us realizing, you know, it's our anniversary, but it became more popular and we partnered with a charity that we could charge admission and raise this money and then raise our own funds to give to the, the nonprofits that's become, you know, really the way we create most of the funding that we do for local non-profits. Downie: I’m a member of Society of Barley Engineers they’re very tolerant of my dumb questions about brewing and they're always real pleased to be involved with, you know, homebrewing the sodas that you know are good for the designated driver. Wagner: They always do some really crazy stuff too. It fits in well. Downie: With the 21st Anniversary, I was walking around and I saw a young, obviously quite pregnant young woman and her three friends were all drinking. So obviously she was the designated driver and I said, ‘Do you realize that there is non-alcoholic soda here that you can have?’ ‘Cause she wasn't drinking. It's like kind of, you need to stay hydrated. She was like, ‘Oh great!’ You know, so she was able to get something. Wagner: They always have some amazing ones too. I always try them when I’m there. They're just… Downie: Yeah, they pride themselves on, you know, coming up with something new and different. And a couple of the Barley Engineers now have collaborated with Stone on beers. Chris Banker with Xocovesa and Corey Magers with Mojay. I don't know of any others, but then I haven't really surveyed the home brewing clubs to see who else has done this. Wagner: I’m not sure who else from the Society of Barley Engineers. Downie: It's on my list of, you know, further research. Wagner: There's definitely some other, there's some folks from QUAFF (Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity). I think some other ones too, that uh, won the homebrewers contest that we do. So yeah. Downie: When did you start the homebrewers contest, do you remember? Wagner: Gosh, that's a good question. Downie: I know it's hard to ask for dates. Wagner: Well, it wasn't until we had the bistro (located in Escondido) open ‘cause we would do it at the bistro. So, it was either 2007 probably would have been the earliest . But yeah, it certainly wasn't long after that, I can look back at the beers probably and find out when we released the first beer, which is probably the Ken Schmidt, the coconut porter. Downie: I think somebody who said… Wagner: ‘Maui Ken’ Schmidt. So, the original that I can find that out. Downie: Yeah. I have people ask me things like that. You know, when was the first this, when was the first that I'm like… Wagner: It’s not in here is it (referring to Stone timeline from their website)? Downie: I don't remember how far. I think that ends about 2006 on most of its information. Wagner: So the AleSmith/Mikkeller/Stone (collaboration beer)/ Let's see. We did some with brewers that says the Ken Schmidt one was 2009. Downie: Okay. Wagner: That was the winner of the Stone Age. That might've been the first one. Downie: Okay. Oh, of course they'll remember. Wagner: ‘Cause then we did the 2010 was with Kelsey McNair, I think he was in QUAFF. Right. And he started North Park. Downie: Yeah. He would've been in QUAFF. Wagner: North Park Beer Company that says. Yeah. Downie: Okay. I see. Good thing I brought that list. So, when you started Stone, you started with the IPA? Wagner: Well, Stone Pale Ale. Downie: Stone Pale Ale, okay. Downie: And then where did Arrogant Bastard fall in, into your first beers? Wagner: So the Stone Pale Ale was the first beer, released in July of ‘96 and then our second beer was, we did a, a seasonal called Winter Stone that I think was probably released in November of that year. And then we ended up keeping it around ‘cause we had a few customers who really liked it on draft. And so we changed the name to Stone Smoked Porter and kept brewing it. So that was our second beer. Downie: Stone Smoked Porter ‘cause I've seen those bottles and I think I've seen a Winter Stone. Wagner: Yeah. And now I'm talking about the year-round beers. So there may have been a couple of other ones in there. But then the Stone IPA was released on our first anniversary, so July of ‘97. So that was our third full time beer. And then I don't think Arrogant Bastard came out until 1998, till November of ‘98 I believe. We had the other year-round beers because we started doing some bottling then. Yeah. Just keeping up with what we had. Downie: So it was late ‘98 when you started bottling? Wagner: (paper rustling) I believe so. Okay. I'll confirm that . I think it's pretty sure it's (November of ’98). Downie: Well since when I asked you about that date code on the bottles and you made the very good point that that was probably when the bottles were printed, not when they were filled. I was like, ‘Oh yeah, that would make perfectly good sense.’ Okay. Now I don't even have to worry about the dates on the bottle anymore because that can be from any time really. That was, there went, a myth ‘cause I saw Chris Cochran, just after that and I said, well Chris, because Chris and Greg and both said, we think this is when the bottles were when beers were brewed. I said, well, Steve says, because you bought bottles and they sat in the warehouse, he goes, Oh, okay. So you know, busting that mythology there, which brings me to… Wagner: Yeah we used to put the date on the case boxes at first. You know, we didn't have the technology to put it actually on the bottle. It was, we were doing these little (inaudible) bottling machines. Downie: Yeah, yeah. You're, you're running lean and mean. You've got to get it out there. Yeah. But that does bring me to another mythology which, how Arrogant Bastard was born. You know, the higher hopped beer. I have heard from people who of course want to speak with some authority, but you would be the authority, that you accidentally double hopped a batch of beer. Wagner: I did. That is absolutely true. I think everybody agrees on that. You know, we were working out of Greg's condo in Solana Beach to, you know, start the business basically. And I was doing a lot of research on equipment and then I was also doing some pilot batches to, you know, work on some, some recipes for some of the beers. And we had, I had my own kind of homebrew equipment, then we invested in a nicer system that a little bit more capacity, I think it was like a 10-gallon system or something like that. It's, so it was one of the first brews I was doing on that system. And so all my calculations changed on volume bitterness units and all that stuff. I screwed up the first calculation and I way over hopped this beer. (Laughs) Downie: But then you didn't release the results of this mistake until a couple of years after being established. Wagner: We have differing opinions, Greg and I recall it differently because we definitely know I screwed it up. The question was, I think I thought I realized it right at the time and I just wanted to dump the batch, you know, Greg said, to my memory Greg said, ‘No, let's, you know, you've already made it. We might as well let it ferment and then we’ll bottle it. And then Greg's memory of it is that I didn't realize it until we tasted the bottles and then it's like, ‘Ah, geez, I messed this one up.’ and Greg is ‘This is the best beer I've ever had.’ Downie: Okay. Well it's nice to actually be able to say definitively that part that, that mythology is true. And so what is your role in developing new beers now? Wagner: You know what, I don't have a huge role other than, you know, tasting the new stuff that we come up with. Maybe making some comments here and there if there's things that I don't think are quite, quite what we're looking for, but, we have a super creative team and I'm happy to enjoy the fruits of their labors. We've got an innovation team with three guys, Chris Ketchum and Jeremy Moynier and Steve Gonzalez. They're just making unbelievable beers. It used to be such pressure for me to come up with a new beer as well, you know, doing all this other work in my day job and all this stuff. It's kind of nice when we got to that point where other people can contribute. You know, Lee Chase was the first who helped out with that. And then Mitch Steele came on board. You really embrace that, which is nice for me because… Downie: Speaking of Mitch (Steele) and Lee (Chase), did they start as volunteers or did they start as paid employees? Wagner: Yeah, I don't think we had volunteers that I recall. Lee started part time ‘cause he was, you know, he had been working at Brewers Union down in San Diego, the brew-your-own place and then I think he was working at White Labs too, maybe even doing some stuff for Pizza Port. But yeah, we hired him part time to help me with the brewing and kegging stuff ‘cause I just couldn't keep up with everything. Then eventually we got to the point where we're able to make him full time. Downie: And then he went out on his own. Wagner: Great job of growing with us for a long time. He was with us for 10 years or something. Super creative guy. Yeah, doing great on his own. Downie: Yeah. And he's a, he's another hard person to reach. But I am persistent. If nothing else, it does pay off eventually. What happened to your early brewing equipment? Wagner: Uh, my earliest brewing equipment, I actually have it. Yeah, do you want it? my musician friend, The guy Doug Freeman, still mine who invited me to homebrew with we, uh, I have that equipment actually. Downie: Yeah. If it's not as big as this (holds arms out indicating the current brewhouse), Wagner: it’s a 5 gallon. Downie: I would love to have it. That would be wonderful. Oh, I would love to have it because that's one thing I don't have is you know, equipment because that's kind of a space factor. But the, where it all started very first time, that would be…Oh, that would be so incredible, that that would just be so much fun. Wagner: Alright, it would make my wife very happy. Downie: And I'm sure, yeah. That's what I get from a number of the wives of brewers. It's like, ‘Oh, you'll only take that much?’ Oh, I can only take so much and I don't want anything that is not San Diego related. I'm sorry ‘cause I have women going, ‘He's got a hundred growlers and they're from all over the country.’ The boss has told me to stop collecting growlers. I’ve got about 45 so far. But the artwork on them is so incredible, you know, I mean I think just everything that you do to represent yourself says so much. Wagner: Yeah. Downie: It's like Karl Strauss and Ballast Point and they've changed their logos. They've changed their stories a little bit. So yeah, I just, I just love to collect real stuff because then people get really excited when they see, you know, a piece of paper they don't get too excited about, but when they see the real thing, they just get really excited and happy. Um, so, just if you care to talk about this, a couple of lows and highs in the progression of Stone, things that have happened that… Wagner: Let's see, I mean, you know, some of the highs were, let's see, in the early days, that'd be just some big wins on getting our beer to some places that, you know. I remember one of them, because one of the reasons I used to come down here was because my brothers were in school at UCSD and I was, I was already out of college and I was living in Los Angeles, but I'd come down and visit them and we'd go to the Del Mar racetrack and stuff. You know, it was just fun thing to do on the weekends and you know, so when we first got Stone Pale Ale on tap at the Del Mar racetrack, I thought, ‘Wow, it doesn't get any better than this.’ Yes, they're just little things. but just those little incremental things, sometimes... Downie: Well, they may feel a little but, that was really a big thing getting, getting out there with so many different people are going to be tasting your beer. That's huge. Wagner: So, yeah, that's what I remember I mean, you know, the first time that we'd started shipping our beer to another state, to Arizona. That's pretty big deal. Downie: Yeah. Especially Arizona was early. I mean, they passed Prohibition four or five years before the nation did. Yeah. That they were one of the reasons San Diego Brewing failed, or Mission Brewing, failed pre-prohibition because Mission was making Hopski which was a near beer and Arizona wouldn't even allow that in the state. And that's what actually caused Mission to shutter. Oh, I've got all kinds of weird little historical trivia. Wagner: Yeah. Let's see. The low points. I don't know. The, you know, the losing good people is always tough, you know? Um, what do you feel like you've let them down or something and not been able to provide the career path or the compensation they need or whatever it is. You know, sometimes that hits you hard when it's somebody who, really, really valuable member of the team that moves on from whatever is, it could be personal reasons, can be professional reasons. Um, those were some low points. You know, obviously Greg talks about when we got turned down by the distributor, you know? Yeah, yeah. That was a pretty big setback. Yeah. Downie: That, that would be terrifying. Wagner: Yeah. I dunno for me though, it was just, it just made me mad and it's like, alright, let me just, we're going to beat these guys at their own game. That we’re going to take action in those situations. But yeah, you know, it's, you don't really know how long you have to make a success of it, you know, and how long can the negative cashflow go on before decides just not gonna make it, you know, and we were close to that point. So it was definitely an inflection point. Downie: Do you have a year that you realize you had gone into the black? Wagner: I think it was about, I think it was probably ‘99 was probably our first profitable year. I can look back and I might still have some of those. Downie: Yeah, well that's not, that's not because Peter (Zien) at AleSmith says it was six, six years or so before he actually… Wagner: I think it was the first full year with Arrogant Bastard. ‘Cause I think that kind of took off pretty quickly for us. It really changed things around. You know, because we had just been trying to grow in San Diego and you know, do it the hard way. Right. Just hand to hand. So, it was a slow road, but that kind of gave a us a big shot in the arm. Downie: Well, a name like that, you know, I mean if nothing else, people are gonna buy it just because of the name. Yeah. Okay. Well then, I know we've talked about this before, but for the record, if Stone hadn't worked out, you know, I mean you did have a time where you came close, I'm sure. What would have been your plan B? Wagner: Yeah, I think the plan B, I mean I definitely wanted to stay involved in craft beer, you know, enjoyed brewing and a lot of aspects for it. So, you know, I thought about that since we talked a little bit last time. I think it probably would have been moving back up to Portland because both of my brothers and their families lived up there. Uh, looking for a job with a brewery up there. Really enjoyed living up there too. Downie: Yeah. Well I liked your, your response last time you said, ‘I didn't think about it.’ It wasn’t not going to happen. Wagner: I thought about it since you said like ‘What would we have done?’ Probably, you know… Downie: So, well it seems like you were so busy you didn't have time to think about what that plan B would be. Wagner: It’s really true, I think we're so focused on just a… Downie: Yeah, if you don't admit that there could be failure, you know, you haven't left yourself anywhere, but to go, but keep going, I guess. Wagner: I feel like we just put our heads down and just kept working with it. Downie: You obviously, you obviously did, I mean some of the photos from the buildout on Mata Way. I mean, obviously you're just, you're asleep in your chair. You just kept going until you couldn't go anymore. But you know that that hard work has paid off here 22 years later, 23 years later. So do you have any words of wisdom for future brewers? Wagner: Wow. Yeah, you know I used to say all those things like ‘chase your dreams’ and ‘if it's your passion’ stuff but the way the industry is now, I'm not sure. (Laughs) I'm not sure the best advice to give somebody, but, yeah, I mean, if you're, I would say if it's, if you're willing to commit everything to it and work harder than you've ever worked and you know, and you should only do that because you really love it. Then, yeah. I mean it's, it's great to do something that you love. You know, I think, I think you, you know, you have to have realistic financial expectations these days. You know, people aren’t going to grow into a $1 billion company probably at this point, you know, but, uh, but if you are passionate about it and you can find a lifestyle that works for you with the, you know, with that sort of employment or a job, I think it's, there's something to be said for it. Downie: Yeah. And Stone has certainly given rise to a lot of other brewers who have gained experience here and then gone out and been successful. Wagner: So it's not just us, it's the other brewers that had been around for a while too. Downie: Yeah. I tried to develop a genealogy, kind of you know, who had worked where with who and I gave up. It was such an inner tangled, shifting, people popping back and forth. I said, no, somebody else can do that. I'll just track the breweries because they're a fixed space and I can deal with it. Wagner: That, um, that would be a very complicated… Downie: What was the, I'm sure you and Greg have probably talked about where does Stone go from here, you know, as far as both expansion and what, when you both say ‘we want to step back, we want to retire’. Or whatever. Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's something we're, we're, you know, we're actively trying to figure out every day pretty much. It's how can we leave the company independent and you know, still a going enterprise, you know, when we're not involved anymore, can't be involved anymore. So that's still our goal. You know, we want to leave a company that has the ability to go its own way and not be told what to do. Uh, you know, be run by the people who work here. Downie: And hopefully hold to your founding principles of, you know, the quality, consistency... Wagner: Yeah. Downie: No paid advertising, you know, just good, good culture for people to work at and, and, and all of those. I mean, it seems like you've developed a very good, strong core of principles that have really served Stone well. Wagner: Yup. Downie: Hopefully they will remain. Wagner: Yeah. You know, we're, we're trying to figure that out. It doesn't seem like it'll be a family business at this point. You know, my sons are still a little young, not even sure if that something they'd be interested in. You know, Greg doesn't have any kids or anything, so it's not, it's not going to be like a family business that's passed on generation to generation probably. So, yeah. Downie: Well, have your children ever come in and like work for the summer helping out? Wagner: My youngest son was a host at the restaurant this summer. Downie: Okay. I'm never sure, I'm never sure if that's really a good insight into the world of, you know, the food and beverage business. Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. People are not always that pleasant. It was good for him because he needed to come out socially a little bit. So, you know, you're having to deal with strangers and be nice to them and make them happy. That's a good thing. Downie: Yeah, that's, it certainly it makes you appreciate what service staff go through. Wagner: Yup. Downie: If you work a little bit of it yourself, it's a very different world for them on the other side. And are there any styles of beer you have not tried? You know , I mean, it seems like there was a real explosion of beer styles for a while. Now, you know, the Brut IPA is the most recent thing I've heard of, but are there other styles that you have heard of that you haven't tried or other styles that you see Stone maybe experimenting with or at least investigating? Wagner: Uh, let's see. I'm sure there's styles that I haven't tried, but they're, they're probably more the historical, obscure type ones that, you know, maybe nobody’s brewing anymore or has tried to brew in a long time. Downie: They're not being made for a reason. Wagner: That’s right, most of them, most of them are not accepted styles. That'd be both, you know, between being a judge at GABF probably judged all the categories, the hundred or whatever there are, including the malt liquor category. Sometimes you have to pay your price. I mean, as far as places we’re looking or, I mean, you know, one of the nice things is having a brewery in Berlin now that sort of opened up a whole new range of things we can do there, you know, as it relates to more traditional styles, more traditional European styles and things. So, it's kinda fun to experiment with those, you know, doing the Berlinerweisse and doing some different Pilsners and lagers and things like that. So, yeah, I dunno, there's nothing we'd rule out, you know, I mean, there's such a lot of, uh, innovation going on with hop varieties and stuff that's really exciting to us. So, obviously we're doing a lot of different IPAs using those, you know, testing new hop varieties for the growers and things. Uh, let's see. Yeah, I don't know. Downie: Well, there's, there's still lots, still lots out there available to experiment. Wagner: You know, the ability to create new flavors and beers is pretty much limitless, I think. So we still want to be leading that charge for sure. Downie: But never giving up on your stable, the stable core beers. Wagner: Yeah. You still have to sell beer too. Downie: But somebody was bemoaning the oaken, the Oaked Arrogant Bastard and how much he missed that. And that was I just like ‘Never had it, can’t say.’ Wagner: The beautiful thing is we, you know, we reserve the right to bring back any beer at any time if we want to. Pretty much any of them we could brew again and we probably will at some point just for fun. Downie: Yeah. As long as those particular hops and all are still available. Wagner: Yeah. The Stone Pale Ale, although somebody told me, I was talking to Jeremy or somebody who told me something. They said that some of the growers are starting to plant the Ahtanum hop again. I guess, which is interesting. So I have to keep posted on that, we might have to do a throw back version of the Stone Pale Ale. Downie: What was old is new again. Wagner: Yeah, exactly. Downie: Well, is there anything that you would like to contribute to this history that we haven't touched on? Wagner: I'll have to think of that a little bit if I could get a second swing at it. But, no, I just think it's an amazing story of how San Diego ended up being this epicenter of it, you know, Capital of Craft™ and just, uh, you know, my best memories are just the wonderful people in this industry. You know, I consider many of them friends, just really good people who you know really pull together and help each other out. And I just thought that's something that we can keep going, you know, as it gets more competitive and things like that. ‘Cause it's, it's a pretty special place to be. Downie: Yes, exactly. Yeah I told Jen (Jennifer Fabbi, Dean of the CSUSM Library) , I said, if, if this was a combative industry, I would have come back to you and said, no, we do not want to get involved. Yeah. But I said, everybody has been collaborative and sharing and open and enthusiastic, which has really made developing the Brewchive® a joy because, I think there's, I don't know if the stars aligned right for San Diego or what, but it does seems like it's a really, there's something about this area and the people in it that has just created a very good place for the craft beer industry to be successful and be collaborative. Wagner: Yeah. And I think if there's one, one thing in particular that Stone did to make that happen was to take our beers outside of San Diego, you know, and probably the first ones to get any sort of serious distribution outside of Southern California to attract attention for, you know, Arrogant Bastard and then Stone IPA and some of those beers that, you know, I mean obviously there's a lot of tourism and military stuff for the word would spread about San Diego breweries, but we actually got the beer out there to the East Coast and other places where people, helped people realize, wow, there's something going on in San Diego. Downie: Yeah. And somebody sampling it here, they may not have any pull where when they go home to get the beer brought in. So yeah, you have to kind of push it to a receptive community. Wagner: You have to convince the distributor that you know that it will succeed or that there's people that would, Downie: And so now there Stone brewing, Stone has a distributorship. Um, I know Greg's got like the nut butter thing going on. (Wagner laughs) It seems like there's becoming a many-headed Hydra, not in a negative way. Wagner: That’s not a Stone thing (nut butter) though , that's, you know, he's got a couple other things he's involved in, you know, whether it's the, yeah, the nut butter or the wine thing, there are some other breweries and things. And I've got a little bit of that too with some of the brewers that I help out. But, yeah, I don't know. I think, you know, our three big pillars are obviously the brewery is the big one and continue to make beer that people want to buy and the challenges and the distribution. It's just a key strategic thing for us that allows us to control our brand and our sales in our home market. That's something that we'll always have that, you know, no matter how rough it gets out there and other parts of the country and stuff, we feel confident that we can, you know, always have strong sales here in Southern California. And then, uh, the hospitality is basically our marketing. You know, we don't invest a lot in advertising or those sort of traditional things for us. It's creating a good experience where people come to your place and you know, they leave and the next day they go to the store, they want to buy a six pack of Stone because they have these fond memories, you know. So far it’s worked. Will it continue to work? We’ll have to see. Downie: Well, sounds like it will. Well, I will end the interview here. I want to thank you so very much, Steve. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder.&#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials.&#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wagner, Steve. Interview October 24, 2018. Description An account of the resource Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24.mp3 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-24 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steve Wagner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Stone Brewing Company (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County University of California, Davis Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Evanston (Ill.) California -- Santa Cruz County -- Santa Cruz Los Angeles (Calif.) Portland (Or.) San Marcos (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en." target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Brewchive(r) Community history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4b980f381eb5f170b4d732a73f004a7d.pdf 2af1a32989492e0fe580e85a42ceffac Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wagner, Steve. Interview transcript, October 24. 2018. Description An account of the resource Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steve Wagner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-24 Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Stone Brewing Company (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County University of California, Davis Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Evanston (Ill.) California -- Santa Cruz County -- Santa Cruz Los Angeles (Calif). Portland (Or.) San Marcos (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p class="p2"><a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en." target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a></p> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_transcript Brewchive(r) Community history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/71c8b4f9523f7776b3f38bb8961109e4.pdf 7d8200db0e9bea2a86b937c5c65a7c28 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wheeler, Lucy. Interview transcript, April 28, 2023. Description An account of the resource Lucy Wheeler discusses college, photojournalism, and San Diego agriculture, specifically the county's para-farms and family farms. Prior to attending Palomar College to study photography, she did street photography with the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce for several years. Gender roles and assumptions about age are also addressed. Additionally, Wheeler also contemplates the current state of American agriculture and potential prosperity, oral history, and her "gift of gab." This interview was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lucy Wheeler Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tanis Brown Charlie Colladay Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-28 Subject The topic of the resource Adult students Education, Higher Family farms -- California Oral history Photography Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Lucy Wheeler License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-045 Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Tanis Brown Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lucy Wheeler OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. photojournalism;education;college;administration;agriculture;gender OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Wheeler, Lucy. Interview, April 28, 2023. SC027-045 00:39:22 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Family farms--California ; Photography ; Adult students ; Education, Higher ; Oral history photojournalism ; education ; college ; administration ; agriculture ; gender Lucy Wheeler Tanis Brown mp4 WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2d8c14513d98ce9e8b8309f763c8fe46.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Interview of Lucy Wheeler by Tanis Brown and Charlie Colladay, April 28, 2023. Interview conducted at San Marcos Historical Society. 0 97 Post-retirement, education, and the gift of gab Wheeler discusses moving to San Marcos after retirement at the age of 80 and discovering photography through classes at Palomar College. Wheeler also touches on what she did before retirement, and how she discovered her “gift of gab,” especially for interviewing others, through going to back to school at Nazarene College. Palomar College ; Nazarene College ; photography 0 417 Photography Wheeler discusses in more detail her coursework in photography and her return to college which she illuminates through an encounter at a skate park. Wheeler also discusses the art of interviewing in further detail, and recounts a lesson she learned along those lines from a photography class. photography ; interviewing ; skate parks ; Sam Hodgins 0 822 Connecting the dots Wheeler discusses her concept behind her business card which states, “Connecting the dots,” and idea that originated from a man who worked with dementia patients and helped them connect the dots to their pasts. dementia ; memory 0 978 Technology, the pandemic, and Wheeler’s past Wheeler discusses her work for a medical laboratory in 1965, and how she learned to view and love technology as a tool. Wheeler ties those lessons to what carried her through the pandemic. Sperry Rand ; Control Data ; Covid-19 pandemic 0 1218 San Diego County’s para-farms and family farms Wheeler recounts being raised on a farm and San Diego County’s farming conditions. Wheeler outlines where her interest in documenting local farms arose during the pandemic, and discusses some of the para-farms’ farmers that she’s interviewed. para-farms ; family farms ; Yasukochi Farm ; Neil Nagata ; Rodriguez Farm ; Joe Rodriguez ; Susan Cupaiuolo ; Primavera Orchard ; cherimoya farming ; Covid-19 pandemic ; San Diego Food System Alliance 0 1801 Oral history Wheeler discusses the insights she’s learned about oral history and conducting a successful interview. oral history ; research 0 1947 Next projects Wheeler elaborates on her plans to expand her oral history work to look towards the future of San Diego farming, her “energy budget,” and her priorities for her future. Wheeler wraps up by discussing what she has learned about using her “gift of gab.” San Diego Food Alliance ; future of farming 0 oral history Lucy Wheeler discusses college, photojournalism, and San Diego agriculture, specifically the county's para-farms and family farms. Prior to attending Palomar College to study photography, she did street photography with the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce for several years. Gender roles and assumptions about age are also addressed. Additionally, Wheeler also contemplates the current state of American agriculture and potential prosperity, oral history, and her "gift of gab." NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:01:37.000 Okay. Good morning. This is April 28th, 2023. My name is Tanis Brown. I’m being assisted by Charlie Colladay on the camera this morning, and we are part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Lucy Wheeler is not only a member of our cohort, but she has also agreed to be an interviewee. So, we are very thankful, Lucy, that you’re willing to speak with us today. And I met you about a year ago when you stopped by the San Marcos Historical Society and brought some pictures of a famous artist from San Marcos. His name is Ted Wade. And you started to telling me about your experiences once you moved to San Marcos. And you handed me a little card introducing yourself. It said “Connecting the dots” which just was so intriguing to me. And then we had an exchange, and you were enthralled by getting involved with the Oral History Project. So, I’d like you to talk to our audience about how you got interested in conducting oral histories way before our project and some of the things that you’ve done since you came to San Marcos. 00:01:37.000 --> 00:03:42.000 Thank you so much for having me. It’s my pleasure to have been part of this program. The way I got started was I believe that everyone has been given a gift and thank goodness they’re not all the same because it brings different pictures to a project. And my gift, I think, was a gift of gab. And in this, back in the 1900s, 1930s, women weren’t supposed to do all this exploring and curiosity things. So, I kind of put a lid on that gift of gab and I prattled day and night. It took me a good number of years before I realized that I did have a voice, and once I found it and what I really wanted to say, I prattled less and listened more. And this is kind of how it evolved. And when I came to San Marcos, I had just retired at 80, and I thought I’ve carried this camera around with me all over. I’m going to go back and take better pictures. The first assumption from probably my classmates, but certainly people that I was photographing, was she must be coming back to take better pictures of her great-grandchildren. And that wasn’t the case. The case was to take better pictures and as I began to do that, I began to shut up and listen more and look more. And through this process—and I would like to say that it is not a matter of age, of when we discover what that gift is. It could start back in our 40s. It could—the 60s. Mine happened to be after I was 80 when I went back to school. 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:45.000 And where did you go to school, Lucy? 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:50.000 I have a degree in Business Administration from University of Minnesota. 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:51.000 Okay. 00:03:51.000 --> 00:05:26.000 And through an evolutionary process, I worked as a management consultant for Fortune 500 companies, and I’ve been in all 50 states and from the North Pole to the South Pole. I lived in Japan a couple of years. And through all of this, I’d had this mantra of “just keep moving.” Then I began to really listen and see that there’s stories. Everybody has a story. Everybody has characteristics and traits that they’d like to look for. And I’ve discovered that mine is actually interviewing. And it was through the help of Dean Nelson who is the head of the Journalist Department at Nazarene College. And he had just published a book at the beginning of Covid. Thank goodness he signed it for me. And I’ve been, through the last couple of years, taking classes through Zoom and keeping—working on it. So, I stepped into your offer at a perfect time and now my goal is to ask better questions so that when I’m asking the people that I’m interviewing, ask them the questions that will really make them talk about their true story, not the one that was—we all have kind of a fake story—but looking for that real story in people. That’s my goal. 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:40.000 So, what I’m hearing you saying is that once you moved to San Marcos and found some educational opportunities—and I think you told me you went to Palomar College for photography class? 00:05:40.000 --> 00:06:57.000 Oh yes. That’s where I began to really explore that creativity and getting rid of the old ideas that just because I had a camera doesn’t—at my age—doesn’t mean that I’m just taking pictures of my family or my kids. I do street photography for the Chamber of Commerce here in San Marcos. Been doing that for about 4 or 5 years now. And I’ve been involved in that. My characteristic or habits of exploring were kind of construed as masculine traits back in the 20s and 30s. And not to express—Well, all of a sudden, I am expressing. And I think, for a while, where I live here viewed me as a likeable tomboy. (Tanis chuckles) And now, I’m not. I’m just this loveable little old lady who is curious and adventuresome and turning it all into a better perspective where I listen more and talk less. 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:12.000 So, going back to school in your 80s, how many of your classmates—Did you have study groups or go on field trips or anything like that to hone your craft? 00:07:12.000 --> 00:08:42.000 No. No. We had assignments that we were to go out and—like one was speed, just to photograph in proper way. And this was very unique. I went to a skateboard place. And this gentleman who was very well dressed and saw me with my camera had a little grandson with him. And he had a designer cap on, a little tricycle, and he was following his grandfather around. So, the gentleman came over to me and he said, “Excuse me. What are you going to do with those pictures?” And I said, “Oh. I’m taking a class, and the assignment is speed.” He said, “Well, if my son ever saw him on Facebook, he’d kill me.” And I said, “Really? Well, I’m not taking them. I’m taking them, the speed of these” who were really good skaters, just flying through the air with the skateboard. So, a little bit later, he came over and asked me, he said “So, you’re going to Palomar.” And most of my class, I would say 50% of us were older people who were looking for just honing a skill, something that they would really do. Most of them were people that were looking for to go out and hike in the desert, you know, and walk all night and wait for the sun to come up on the right spot. 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:43.000 Ahh. 00:08:43.000 --> 00:10:13.000 But that wasn’t my intent. Anyway, he came over and he said, “So, you went back to college.” He said, “Hhmmm. The other day—” He said, “I’ve been retired now for about a year.” And he said, “The other day I went in to get a cup of coffee and my wife said, ‘Get out of my kitchen!’” (Tanis laughs) And he said, “What do I do now (shrugs) I’m retired and I don’t have anything really doing. I never thought of going back to college.” So, it’s exploring what’s available to us. And I’ll never forget how he was like “What do I do now?” (shrugs) And I see so many of my peers that are like “I don’t know how to get on Zoom. I don’t know how to handle Covid.” It has been a very upsetting time, and things are confused on any level. So, that was kind of the beginning of accepting my wonder and curiosity. And creativity was also considered back in the 2000s, well, especially during the Great Depression. Because survival was what you looked for. Curiosity was a waste of time. Buck up! And get out there and, you know, get the work done. 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:14.000 Okay. 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:15.000 So— 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:35.000 So, in addition to going to Palomar and taking photography and then, as I understand it, during the pandemic you got involved in interviewing or honing your interviewing skills. Now, tell me about how that got started. 00:10:35.000 --> 00:13:42.000 Well, there was a gentleman who is now I think the head of the photography department of the Union Tribune. His name was Sam Hodgkins. He had a workshop down at Balboa Park. And I was going to take an interviewing kind of class, of photography, photojournalism. And what he did was he told us about how you go out and you interview people out in the street, the vendors. And in that class, there was I think about 12 of us, 12 or 14, but there were 3 or 4 engineers. They were perfectionists when it came to the photography, but they didn’t know how to talk to people. I went out and with my gift of gab, “Hi. What’s your first name?” (Tanis chuckles) And I came back, and I had four. But there was one lady who was getting ready, and she had a keyboard. And she was getting ready to put it up and I said, “Oh!” The sun was just perfect on the keyboard. And the background was back, but her hands on the keyboard. And I interviewed her, and I asked her, she said “Well, I’m working my way through college, City College. And this is my way of making money, is with the tips.” And so, I went back, and we had to show these pictures. And I showed mine with the keyboard. And Sam said, “Whose picture is this?” And I said, “It’s mine.” (raises her finger and has a sheepish look on her face) And he said, “Now, that’s what I’m talking about. When you’re interviewing, get the photo that draws people in to asking the questions.” And I said, “Do you think I could make a living at this?” (both chuckle) And he laughed. And soon after that, in the photojournalism class, I had to interview a person who was doing what he was doing. So, I interviewed him. And we did it at the new public library downtown. And then, he and his wife—he’d just gotten married—went to Brooklyn, New York, and she was a writer, a journalist. And he was the photographer. And quite often, like in The Tribune even, you’ll have a photographer and then you’ll have a storyteller on a different aspect of it. But I kind of liked the fact that I can go out and take photos of the vendors, those candid moments that you try to get, and then ask them the right questions. And the more I practiced, the better it is. So, this was a great opportunity for growth for me, when I met you. But that’s how it all got started. 00:13:42.000 --> 00:14:04.000 That’s great. Well, your business card says, “Connecting the dots” and I think that’s a perfect description of what you do. And you talked to me a little bit about where that idea came from. You want to share that again? 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:09.000 Um, I’m not sure. 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:14.000 The man you met at the dementia-- 00:14:14.000 --> 00:16:18.000 Oh! Yes. There was a gentleman who had worked with dementia people, and they were used to him. And he note—And he was there, and they were comfortable with his being there. So, they just kind of assumed that he was part of the woodwork. But he observed that as the family would come to visit the people with dementia, they might not know their spouse. They might not know their children. But if they were given a photo of themselves when they were young, like 17, maybe after they’d been in the service, that they would light up and just say “Ah. That! I know! I recognize that.” So, then he began to have them pose in front of like a sink if they’re washing their face. One gentleman had a smile on his face because he saw himself as a member of the service in World War II. So, he then imposed that photo of him, when he was young, into the mirror. So, he was seeing himself as young. Another one was a lady who was a nurse. And she was also getting dressed. But behind her was a different nurse, probably a therapist that was holding a walker. And the lady is looking in the mirror, of herself as a nurse, thinking “I should be the one that’s doing that because that was my job.” And you could see the confusion on her face in both of those pictures. Another was a pharmacist who was stirring his little cup of coffee and he saw himself as a pharmacist stirring, when he was young. So, I thought, you don’t really have to have dementia to remember that. So, I started practicing in that and it was enjoyable. 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:41.000 So, the other thing I am really fascinated about is that, during the pandemic, that you took a wherewithal to look into continuing your education on Zoom. (Lucy chuckles) And so, how did you go about finding all these classes on interviewing or asking the right question? 00:16:41.000 --> 00:19:15.000 Well, I was fortunate in that I was in a—I was working in a medical laboratory in 1965. And at that time—it was in Minneapolis, which is where I had my degree in Business—they decided they were going to automate the laboratories. Sperry Rand and Control Data were both there. And at that time, there were more Fortune 500 companies in Minneapolis than any other city. That’s not the case now. But they were going to automate this laboratory. And this young man, probably 30, 35, was working for Sperry Rand and he said, “I know you people are really scared you’ll lose your job and there won’t be a need for you. But” he said, “this is just a tool. Technology is a tool. And it’s meant to help you, as a tool. What it can’t do is it can’t see the beautiful sunset where the Mississippi River and the Minnesota River come together. It can’t see the shoreline. It can’t see the sunsets. It’s just a tool.” I fell in love with technology then. And through my career as a management consultant then, I really came to appreciate more and more. I had my first computer when it was still a DOS. And quite different than it is now, much bigger. But I kept up with it and became kind of addicted to Windows. Now, I’ve changed to a iPhone because of Steve Jobs and his introduction to the school systems (Tanis laughs). But, and that’s another learning curve, switching from Windows to the iPhone. At any rate, then I was pretty much aware of the technology and its value when Covid hit. And I immediately was on to this whole thing. That was how I met Dean Nelson, any number of groups that would get—and you can talk to them and discuss things. And it was wonderful. It really carried me through the two years. I was not isolated because of that. 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:25.000 That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Well, truly, you know we talk about lifelong learners, and I certainly think that you are a perfect example of a lifelong learner! 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:26.000 Well— 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.000 And a lesson for all of us. 00:19:28.000 --> 00:20:15.000 —I think that all of us need to stop and look at what our gifts are and learn to develop them earlier. I’m grateful that I did. It all worked out in a constructive way. But we all have them. And it’s not everybody who is going to be an interviewer. A lot of people are really very, very creative. That has nothing to do with that. You don’t have to be an extrovert (both chuckle) in order to do that. So, I would encourage people to stop and think about the moment, not the future, not the past. But what do I want to have happen? 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:16.000 Yeah. 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:18.000 What do I want to express? 00:20:18.000 --> 00:21:20.000 So, I’d like to move our interview into now, once we got involved with this North County Oral History project. And during our first class—and we talked about our assignment and going out and interviewing at least two, and maybe three, people—you immediately knew exactly what direction you wanted to go in. And it was with the farming industry. And I was amazed because a lot of us that were in the class were kind of ticking off who might we interview. But you were really driven to capture some stories of people in the farming industry. So, I’m wondering how, where did that interest come from, Lucy? 00:21:20.000 --> 00:25:29.000 Well, I was raised on the farm in the Midwest. But I didn’t like it. Didn’t want to be there. (Tanis chuckles) It was isolated. It was, you know, not a—They needed men for the work of the farm. But the one interesting thing about this area is San Diego is the ninth largest city in the United States. But within its county, it has more farms—and especially para-farms—than any other county in the United States. That’s an unusual situation. I also know that it has 23 different kinds of soil that grows one thing on one area and then 10 miles down the road something else is better. They found that flowers and strawberries love the ocean whereas olive trees don’t. But inland, olive trees are great because the soil is different. The moisture is different. And, at the same time, there’s a crisis right now in our expensive way of living that developers want to develop the land rather than grow crops. And they would like to have condos instead of strawberries. So, it has put all of us into a very precarious situation about what’s the future of farming here. So, in order to know the past, present, and future, what better way than to go and look at the history. And, because I hang out at farmer’s markets—and in 2017 there were 5000 para-farms, which means 10 acres or less. They’re due to do a survey next year, 2014 (2024). This is done by the Farm Bureau. And I’d already been to their yearly groups and the Farm Bureau and that, and all of the farmer’s markets. And then when Vista was the only market that never closed during the pandemic. And he stood up to them and said, “If the grocery stores are open, we’re open.” And there were some vendors that came too. So, I had an inroad. So, I went back to a couple of vendors and started just curiously saying “Where did your farm start?” And I chose, first of all, the one that has the strawberry farm. And Mr. Nagata whose family came here in 1902 and was able to buy land at that time, and he married the Yasukochi family who were famous for their—everything from CSA. And their son, Neil Nagata, is the Farmer of the Year this year, here in San Diego County. Then I looked a little further and there was a farm up in north Escondido, close to Temecula, that is the Rodriguez farm. And they migrated here from Mexico in 1923. And I interviewed Joe Rodriguez who is the third generation of five in their farm. And then the third one was—and I have trouble with the last name on this because the gentleman was Italian, Capo-- (Cupaiuolo) 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:32.000 C. Susan C! (both laugh) 00:25:32.000 --> 00:30:01.000 Right! Exactly. And he passed away in 2020. But they had, he and his wife, had about 20 years of very successful cherimoya (sic) orchard which is very unusual and unique. And, as a side note, cherimoyas are only grown in San Diego County and Orange County. They won’t grow anywhere else in the United States because of the soil conditions and the moisture. But, at any rate, he passed away in 2020. So, I interviewed his wife. And she told about how they were able to make a construct of this. And this very representative, six acres, and very representative of how these farms that are under 10 acres can survive. And a lot of them didn’t during the Covid. They didn’t know how to market. They didn’t know how to sell their products. Their audience was gone. Instead of “Here’s my tomatoes I grew” where do the people come when the markets weren’t even open? So, there was a lot of things that her husband had contributed in that knowledge. He did a lot of work with Frazier Farms and promoted the cherimoyas (sic). And they had backups of ways that they survived. It was very, very interesting. And it was through this past adventure kind of thing that I’d been doing anyway that I continued then with that and pursued it, and fortunately found three families that had immigrated as well. So, as the techs from Cal State are doing these hashtags, you can look at it from immigrants that began farming. And especially the Rodriguez family was very interested in—because they’ve gone organic. And organic is a special kind of treatment that they have to go through to get their soil fertilized. It’s very costly. And yet he wants to promote now that he’s getting older. He would like to retire and just help younger people become interested in growing. Right now, the kids don’t want to be farmers. The immigrants don’t want to be farmers. Mr. Nagata told me that if they have to pay $15 an hour for minimum wage now to have people pick strawberries, they can’t afford, in this day and age, to sell wholesale. So, these things are all building up as to how they did it ; what we’re in the crisis with right now ; and then, with this San Diego Food System Alliance, look at new ways of developing foods that maybe we’ve never thought of before. Hydroponic (sic) gardening is one. There’s a few others—turning like—going against, not against, but seeing that milk products with cheese and that sort of thing maybe isn’t as productive for our own health as maybe almond milk that has plant-based cheese. And that’s scary to some people to think “Oh, my goodness. You know, let’s go back to the olden days.” (Tanis chuckles) And things change. No matter who we are or where we’re going. Attitudes change. Opinions change. Now, everybody has one whereas 70 years ago, no, you didn’t do that. So, it has been a really exciting time. I really love being out there and just talking to people about how did you do this and what do we do now? And where are my great-grandchildren going to go eat their lunch? 00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:18.000 Yeah. I’m curious because you seem so well-versed in understanding kind of the food production and history and future, is there anything through the interviews that you learned that surprised you? 00:30:18.000 --> 00:31:01.000 Um, not surprised me so much. But it brought out how do you ask better questions to get answers from people? In the storytelling process, the interviewing process, which is my thing, you have to learn to listen, and then think about it. And I made a couple of mistakes. But sometimes you have to make the mistakes to realize that that’s another growing experience, you know. Like “Oh, maybe I could have done that better. How can I do that better?” And ask a better question in a better way. 00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:02.000 Mm-hmm. 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:04.000 That’s what I think I’ve learned the most. 00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:30.000 Yeah. So, for anybody who’s listening to this interview and might consider either being interviewed or interviewing someone, how would you recommend or promote the idea of participating in oral histories? 00:31:30.000 --> 00:32:27.000 Well, I think if they know what their interest is—and mine just happened to be agriculture—but whatever it might be, do all the homework you can. Do the research of what do I need to know to ask the right questions to get to my point? The whole purpose of an interview is what’s the point? And if the point is to make a better understanding so we can build on the future, great. Whatever that avenue might be, do your homework. And one of the best sources is Madame Librarian. They are great at helping you see sources. They know how to get on the internet and dig deep. And the deeper you dig, the more insight you get about asking the right questions. 00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:44.000 Well, that’s great. So, as we wind down this interview, I would like to ask what’s next for Lucy Wheeler? (Lucy chuckles) What do you have brewing in your mind about where you go from here, Lucy? 00:32:44.000 --> 00:35:59.000 Last year, when we started this project, it was in September I believe? And right after that, the San Diego Food System Alliance had their second big global kind of meeting. And they met over at Escondido at the Center. And I went to it. And all of a sudden, I was in rooms with these future-thinking farmers of saying “I don’t even understand the language” because they had different speakers and different ways of presenting. And that’s when I started to say I need to dig deeper. So, I’m digging deeper into how this Alliance now is viewing the food system that they’re imagining. And part of it has gotten involved with the climate part. They’re trying to draw in it as well as drawing in all nationalities, not just one, and trying to understand it more global, really raise the arena. And I’d like to be part of that. And I had asked them when I went to it. It was just a few weeks after we’d started. And they just sent me, the next one will be in October. And they will be discussing this, and I’ll have a much better language to use by the time I go to that. And I don’t—I have—One of the things that happens as you get older is you don’t have the energy you had when you were 20 or 30. So, I have my energy budget more in focus on how I can put that into my future. And for however long. None of us know how long we’re going to live, you know, if it’s going to be tomorrow or 20 years from now. But, in that interim, I plan to just keep doing that kind of thing because it interests me and it’s my reason for getting up in the morning. But I don’t have the energy to spend all day on it. It’s putting it into priorities. And that’s one of my priorities, is that goal of being interested in what might I contribute to this. And we can. We just don’t think we can. We get caught up in our own thoughts of the past. And we don’t open our imagination. And these people are opening the imagination of what can be possible, maybe more healthy. I’m not sure. 00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:26.000 More healthy. So, is there anything that I haven’t asked you about your educational process and your taking what you’ve learned and actually doing something about it in our little interview? Is there anything that I missed that you would like to tell our audience? 00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:58.000 No. I think that’s pretty much it. As we get older, things get into a different perspective like the energy. But there’s still the priority of what’s important to us. And one of the things that’s really important to me is to be able to feel like that I could contribute something. And that just means digging deeper. Not worry about my toe hurt when I was two. (Tanis laughs) 00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:07.989 All right. So, just to clarify, what year did you come to San Marcos? 00:37:07.989 --> 00:37:08.000 2010. 00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:10.000 2010. 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:57.000 So, the last 13 years have been dedicated to really honing in on something that I always wanted to do all my life. I think I was born with the gift of gab. I just didn’t know how to use it. And it took me a lot of years to figure out that it’s pretty nice to listen. And if you really stop to think about it, when you’re talking about the weather or you’re talking about the neighbor, it’s not always focused on what our traits or skills could be, what the energy level could be. It’s a distraction. And, yeah, I think listen more and talk less. 00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:12.000 All right. Well, this has been a pleasure for me to have you share this with our audience and be part of the collection at Cal State San Marcos. So, thank you so much. 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:15.000 I have enjoyed it to the hilt. 00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:18.000 Great. Okay, enjoy, Lucy. 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:19.000 Thank you. 00:38:19.000 --> 00:39:22.000 Take care. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.xml WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wheeler, Lucy. Interview, April 28, 2023. Description An account of the resource Lucy Wheeler discusses college, photojournalism, and San Diego agriculture, specifically the county's para-farms and family farms. Prior to attending Palomar College to study photography, she did street photography with the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce for several years. Gender roles and assumptions about age are also addressed. Additionally, Wheeler also contemplates the current state of American agriculture and potential prosperity, oral history, and her "gift of gab." Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-045 Subject The topic of the resource Adult students Education, Higher Family farms -- California Oral history Photography Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-28 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lucy Wheeler Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tanis Brown Charlie Colladay Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Lucy Wheeler Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5b0f05f2cf213129ba63269ce29c982c.pdf e70f492593d23d2cab0d1ff78b24ba9c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource White, Alex. Interview transcript, April 8, 2024 Description An account of the resource Alex White is a Chamorro activist who experienced a two week long Chamorro immersion program histed by the Prugraman Sinipok organization. In this interview, he speaks on his experiences growing up in Colorado, his engagement with Chamorro culture, and his path to learning the Chamorro language. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alex White Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-04-08 Subject The topic of the resource Language revival Chamorro language Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania Colonization -- Japan Colonization -- United States -- Guam Decolonization -- Guam Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English and Chamorro Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Alex White License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WhiteAlex_SheehanRobert_2025-07-22_transcript Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Guam San Diego County (Calif.) Colorado Type The nature or genre of the resource text Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history Prugraman Sinipok