2 10 182 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/694828807984d331d6d9c34d9ef41c55.mp3 b0e3053193e3e877f17a5c3dfe7d6e7a Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spackman, Amy. Interview February 23, 2017. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Amy Spackman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-066 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. community history Description An account of the resource Amy Spackman began working in the tasting room at Mission Brewing in San Diego after switching careers from being a preschool teacher. In this interview she discusses her experience breaking into the San Diego craft brewing industry, her continuing education, and what it is like to be one of few women in the industry. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-17 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) El Cajon (Calif.) Subject The topic of the resource Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Brewchive(r) Community history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Amy Spackman OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SpackmanAmy_DownieJudith_2017-02-13.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. San Diego brewing;women in brewing;Mission Brewing;brewing industry;craft brewing OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Spackman, Amy. Interview February 23, 2017. SC027-066 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm San Diego brewing ; women in brewing ; Mission Brewing ; brewing industry ; craft brewing Amy Spackman Judith Downie sound SpackmanAmy_DownieJudith_2017-02-13.mp3 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/694828807984d331d6d9c34d9ef41c55.mp3 Other audio Oral history Amy Spackman began working in the tasting room at Mission Brewing in San Diego after switching careers from being a preschool teacher. In this interview she discusses her experience breaking into the San Diego craft brewing industry, her continuing education, and what it is like to be one of few women in the industry. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:33.000 This is Judith Downie, oral historian for California State University, San Marcos, on February 23rd, 2017, collecting an oral interview from Amy Spackman of Mission Brewing, and she has signed the authorization documents and has been given a copy of the authorization, and we will now be starting the history. (Unintelligible) These are just some sample questions here. You definitely don't have to answer these questions. You can riff off in any direction that you want. 00:00:33.000 --> 00:01:29.000 Cool. All right. So, my name is Amy Spackman, I live in National City and yes, I am over twenty-one. Thankfully. All right. (Unintelligible). Okay, good. So pretty much how I got started working with beer, I taught preschool for seven years and got really burnt being in the field. It was something I was really passionate about before, and then it just wasn't really doing it for me any longer. And I didn't feel that it was something fulfilling. And I was looking at, you know, I'm in my early mid-twenties, what am I going to do to change that? I didn't want to become my dad that is counting down until Friday and when the weekend is and dreading that and bringing on that negativity so early on. So I decided to just quit, essentially. My director was really supportive of it. 00:01:29.000 --> 00:02:28.000 I told him, I said, this just isn't working out anymore, and I need to do something that's more authentic. And, it was an interesting couple of months of searching, honestly. I found out that coffee wasn't what I wanted to do. That wasn't a big enough passion. Even though it's a serious love, but beer was always something, and jokingly, the kids kind of drove me to drink beer all the time, and I was spending more and more time kind of nerding out on those things and collecting bottles with my husband. And it just dawned on me, why not try to work in beer? It’s San Diego, It's--why not? So, just kind of randomly set out some emails, and I was hoping, you know, am I gonna be taken seriously, I’m a teacher? What are they going to see as a value for me coming from preschool that's already viewed as a daycare. How is that going to apply into a brewery? So that was a really scary thing, honestly. I didn't know what was going to happen, if anything was going to happen, am I wasting my time? 00:02:28.000 --> 00:03:37.000 And then I got a response back from Twisted Manzanita in Santee, which bless their hearts at the time for bringing me on, for giving me the chance to jump over and seeing that as a teacher coming into beer, I had organization and things of the sort. And so I did some office work for them and then somehow just drifted into the tasting room, due to people not showing up for shifts and had no formal training whatsoever on anything. I didn't know how to change a keg. I didn't know how to, I hadn't worked cash register since my first job when I was in high school. I hadn't done any of these things and it was just, you were thrown out and the brewers really taught me everything. And I think that was one of the biggest things I loved about beer was that no one treated you like you were lesser because you didn't know. And it was always a learning opportunity, and ever since I started at that particular brewery, it was always something I was learning new every single day. And I thought that was the coolest thing that it was a community and that you were all in it together, even if the particular place wasn't the greatest. 00:03:37.000 --> 00:04:54.000 They've now since gone under, which is no surprise, but finding Mission was one of the best things because I had gone out into that job search again. I thought, oh God, you know, was this a reputable enough brewery? Am I gonna be able to get somewhere else? What am I going to do? And thankfully Mission just really just popped up, and it's extremely close to the house. And there were so many opportunities presented early on. I really connected with the staff right away, which was really cool to see such warmth. So now I do tours, which back to the teacher thing, you know, managing crowds, being organized, timely, things of the sort that was really helpful. And so that was nice to bring those skills over into that side. So I do tours here, I bartend, and I am also in charge of our merchandise. So that's been really fun to have a variance in the schedule and also be so close to the house and be with this--Mission (Brewery) I kind of consider it my extended family. I'm here all the time, all the time, and everyone is really sweet. And again, if I don't know something I'm not afraid to go ask another brewer or one of the supervisors of another department that I don't know something about, and they're more than happy to teach me. 00:04:54.000 --> 00:05:48.000 And I think that's the coolest thing, is again, that community furthered. It's a little daunting sometimes being, going from a woman-dominated field to the opposite. That was an interesting change being like I'm one of two, but here at Mission, we have so many. Our offices probably got five or six women that work in there. We've got three female bartenders, no female brewers at this point, but it's just really cool to have that element going on. And I think that's just really cool. But it, it can be kind of daunting to prove yourself that, you know, beer is a passion rather than the aesthetics behind the bar pouring a beer for somebody that doesn't quite understand that you know about beer. So that's why I've really been interested in continuing school. 00:05:48.000 --> 00:06:38.000 So I've been enrolled in the San Diego State (University) Business of Craft Beer program, finishing up my last class for the level one certification in May. And then I'm gonna take a break for baseball season, because that's a busy season for us and then go back probably in the fall to finish up my level two. And then I just judged my first beer competition, which was really scary and daunting at AleSmith (Brewing Company). And it was a really cool learning experience. I'm looking more into getting BJCP (Beer Judge Certification Program) certified and studying for my Cicerone test, hopefully in December to take that. So there's really no end all in my goal for where I want to go with beer, honestly. It's more, I like having my fingers in different pots ’cause it keeps it--there's variety, and I like that. I feel like you'd never know everything, and that's the coolest thing. 00:06:38.000 --> 00:07:28.000 I don't know anything about brewing. I'd be super excited to learn more about that. But yeah, the whole reason behind going to school is because it was something I was passionate about and because it was cool to finally learn something that was exciting. And again, you’d never know everything, and I've just wanted to get every beer book, read it all. I love obviously going out and drinking lots of beers at different places and every brewery has its own element. It's just a different family at each place, and I think that's the coolest, and for the most part, I feel like San Diego breweries are a big family and we all support each other in various ways, whether it's by sharing ingredients or sharing ideas, or just acknowledging that you do the same work. I think that's just the coolest thing. Um, yeah. 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:31.000 How many years have you been here at Mission? 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:49.000 Sunday will be my one year. So probably two years in beer now, coming up on two, which doesn't, it's really nothing. There's lots of people here that started real, way earlier on. So it's, it's been cool to jump into the school side of things to kind of make up for the lost time but it's been, it's been fun. 00:07:49.000 --> 00:08:25.000 And the involvement with the Pink Boots Society has been really exciting to collaborate with other women as well and learn about scholarship opportunities and network and support each other. I think that's a really fun organization. We just had a meeting last night, and it was, it was exciting. Big fan. It's neat to see the full circle of women coming back into beer, more in the spotlight from historical times to now that it's coming back around. And I think that's really cool. 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:35.000 Okay. So considering your, your educational process right now, it looks like you're planning on being in beer for a long time. 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:42.000 Yeah, I, I can't see myself leaving the industry honestly. It's not an option at this point. 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:58.000 Well let me go back to Twisted Manzanita. Since you did work there for a little bit, did they have any women working there with brewers? I mean, since they're gone, it's kind of like, you know, to piece in a little bit of missing history here. 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:51.000 There were no female brewers at Manzanita. There was a woman that ran the packaging line. Maybe one that volunteered once in a while on a very informal basis. And aside from our HR lady, that was really it. And one or two female bartenders, but they were just there to have a job. There was really no love kind of showing for beer. It was just more of a, uh, it was just definitely a job for them. And for me, I really liked to connect in with that early on with the customers being like, oh, well, what do you like to drink? Well, let me show you, let me teach you about this style. Let me show you that IPAs aren't scary. Let me show you that dark beers aren't scary. It was, it was cool. But yeah, Manzanita, there was no women there whatsoever. 00:09:51.000 --> 00:10:14.000 Let me think here for a minute, there was something on the tip, the tip of the skull and it's gone. Other than Pink Boots, do you see any formal or informal networking for the women in, in beer in San Diego? 00:10:14.000 --> 00:11:12.000 Pink Boots is kind of the main one. Um, I want to say, and I could be wrong on this. I know inside QUAFF (Quality Ale & Fermentation Society), the homebrewer society, I want to say there's one called Suds that's for women, but I haven't broken into the home brew community myself. So I'm, I'm really unsure on that, but that's something that I'd like to explore, but in order to brew, there's lots of there are home brew, um, there's lots of things that need to happen first. Like making space in our house and having an entire day off to make the beer for the first time. But I don't know if I'd ever want to open my own brewery, honestly. Once my husband gets out of the military, we're looking at, you know, making beer more frequently, ‘cause he'd have more time, but at the point of San Diego’s saturation with breweries, I don't know if I would be bold enough to believe that our short term home brewing would be good enough to open a place. 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:15.000 So does, does your husband brew? 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:31.000 We are gonna, we have the beginnings of a, of a brew system, but we haven't done it yet. Um, it's ready to go just when both of us have the same day off and an eight-hour chunk of time, which, it's been awhile. 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:46.000 Oh yeah. Martin at Quantum (Brewing) invited me to come down ‘cause I met him and I said, I don’t really, I don’t understand the brewing process. What’s actually entailed. So he said, come on down one morning when I’m brewing. And I went down and I was just like, oh, this is a lot more than I thought. 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:56.000 The homebrewing element, that’s a little scary. I can watch the guys do it all day, and I get the gist of it. But as far as making it actually happen in the kitchen, that's a little more frightening. 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:08.000 It seemed like there was a lot of watching temperatures and a lot more carefulness to it than I would have thought because of just my lack of knowledge about the brewing process. 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:42.000 Much more science oriented, much more math, which the two of those things are not my strong points. Which is why I'm letting everyone else brew. I’ll help you name a beer. I'll do more of the artsy side of things. But one of my favorite things, though, about brewing here, watching them at least, is coming in and the smell of the brewery. It's the most beautiful smell. Nothing bad can happen to you when that smell is going on. It's, it's just magical. Love that. That's my favorite. 00:12:42.000 --> 00:13:22.000 And then as far as any mentors, like I said, pretty much everybody in all different departments have, I mean, whether it's been at Manzanita or at Mission, everyone's been so great extending a hand or explaining what their positions are, like, how to overcome something that's challenging or encouraging you to continue on with school. There's, it's just kind of been a work of everybody. And I think that's really nice to be around, such a supportive, positive environment. And even on the worst day, it's beer at the end of the day. And just kinda reminds me to really appreciate what we're doing. 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:43.000 Okay. I remembered the question I had. You mentioned QUAFF and not breaking into that yet. So from your perspective, do you see not an adversarial position, but a division between QUAFF as a home brewer group and you know, the more professional, professionally-focused groups? 00:13:43.000 --> 00:14:07.000 I mean, there's definitely a lot of professionals are in QUAFF. I want to say, I think it's Jeff (Wiederkehr) from Burning Beard he's in that as well. So a lot of the pro brewers are in QUAFF as well, kind of supporting the people starting out in their kitchens and things of the sort. So again, all comes back to that support system. 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:18.000 Because I haven't reached out to QUAFF yet. I mean, I've seen, uh, Sheldon Kaplan's SUDS documentary (SUDS COUNTY, USA) where he relies a lot on QUAFF members. 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:19.000 Okay. 00:14:19.000 --> 00:15:20.000 Because that was done in 2000, I can't remember the exact date, but it was really kind of before a lot of the commercial breweries opened up. So he didn't have a huge body of those people to go to, although he did interview Peter (Zien) and Skip (Virgilio) and a lot of the other, the other originals, the long-termers, but he didn't, he didn't get to the newer people. And I'm, I will say I'm really thrilled to see the Mission name, because when I came to Pink Boots, and I talked about Katherine Zitt, poor woman, her unfortunate name, um, her husband did own Mission Brewing for a while. Interesting. And, of course, that was all pre-prohibition, but he did have San Diego Consolidated and Mission, he purchased later, but it was always with a group of investors. So he wasn't the solo owner, but you know, I'm like, “Oh good. You know, this ties back to Kate and you know, my pre-prohibition brewing.” 00:15:20.000 --> 00:16:10.000 It's really cool. Um, I've always been kind of a nerd for history, honestly. Um, I think it's just really cool, and being born and raised in San Diego, it's, it's really neat to be a part of one of the originals, um, and be able to explain that it's one of my, when I give our tours, that's one of my favorite parts to explain that to people, um, besides the brewing process, it's the history and how it came back. And, um, it's just cool that it's, it's still in existence. And, um, every customer has been just in awe that the name’s, you know, been revived and the building is really cool. Everyone thinks that's where we are over off of Washington. We're not. And it's cool to say we haven't been in that space since 1919 ‘cause prohibition. And, um, it's just really cool. It's, it's neat that both these buildings are still standing, um, and haven't been smushed over for condos or a stadium— 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:32.000 It would be wonderful if Mission could get back to the original building. That would be really, really cool because so many of our buildings are gone. It's, it's real sad. And so for me, as a historian, to see things like that gone, I get real, there's goes another piece of our history. Now, have you looked at the BEERology exhibit at the Museum of Man? What did you think of that? 00:16:32.000 --> 00:17:51.000 Yeah. Um, I thought it was a little small, um, but small is not always bad. Uh, I felt like there was a lot of things that kind of were left out. I mean, especially could have been more of an ode to modern day, um, beer and, um, I just, I feel like it could have been a lot more, uh, female centered for sure. Um, it was just, it was, it was a neat exhibit. I think it's really a, it's a really good start. Um, I feel like there's a lot more to go and always things to add, um, especially for how long beer has been around and how many, I mean, I, I feel like it did a really good job showcasing the different cultural varieties of traditional beers, but there's a lot more that could have been added to that, and beer’s everywhere, um, on, in all different countries. And, and I feel like it kind of only focused on, um, more Latin America and their influence in making beer. I would've liked to see more European influence of, you know, the alewives and things. Um, and yeah, again, more, more modern acknowledgements to San Diego’s roots, since it is featured at a San Diego museum. 00:17:51.000 --> 00:18:52.000 Have you ever been to the San Diego History Center and looked at their (exhibit) ‘cause they actually did an exhibit in 2013 on craft beer, or beer brewing, in San Diego. Their remnants of the online exhibit are still up there. Cool. But I've actually been into the materials because Jane Connelly, the archivist there has kind of kept everything. Those are the materials I've been mining for information about the women in San Diego beer, because there's really not much of anything else. And in the San Diego History Journal, which is available for free online, um, Ernie Liwag has written a couple of articles. The second one was really kind of a recap of his first, but it did have a little bit more information, but it's interesting because he doesn't mention women. It's just, you know, he does talk about Mission. He does talk about, you know, brewing and the effect of prohibition and stuff, but, uh, yeah, it's uh, so that's, that's real fun to, to mine that for interesting things. 00:18:52.000 --> 00:20:24.000 And then of course that's part of what we want to do with the Brewchive is save the history of what's going on in San Diego brewing and North County, including North County working with the San Diego region. But of course, with my focus on women's history, I'm like, you know, “I got to get the women,” because right now with what I'm running across with Kate is she's almost never mentioned anywhere. And she's not mentioned really in connection with San Diego Consolidated Brewing, except for once or twice in the newspaper when J. Henry her husband would be mentioned. And then, yeah. And, or, and of course he was always Mrs. J H Zitt in all the society pages and stuff, but what little prison she even had there. But I was looking to see, um, if there was any reaction to prohibition or to the temperance movement or anything, because as a woman, she would have been in women's groups. She was very active evidently in the floral society. And she's going to be running into women who are not going to approve of her husband's source of income, and the died childless. So probably any papers they had are gone. Yeah. I'm kind of hitting a brick wall on developing anymore about her, but it's been real interesting because absence says so much as well as presence. Yeah. So, yeah, but I'm just determined to not let our women now escape from us, you know that's, that's gotta be recorded. 00:20:24.000 --> 00:21:25.000 That's really cool. Uh, like one other thing I thought of, um, is with that career change, going from preschool to beer, um, it was really hard convincing some of the older members of my family, um, that it's a reputable industry, that it is really such a big impact in San Diego, that San Diego is very notable for their beer. Um, the west coast in general is notable for their beer, and I'm not going into a career that's just willy nilly. I'm not partying all the time, though that happens. Uh, it's trying to show those that wonder why you would abandon something reputable, as teaching, and go off into this. Um, that's been kind of a struggle to show that. So I think that's kind of my push for so much extra school, um, is to show the people that just assume, “Oh, you're, you know, you just haven't figured it out yet. You're just doing a job like this to tide you over, and you're just pouring beer,” and it's, it's bigger than that. 00:21:25.000 --> 00:22:11.000 And I think that's a really interesting point to bring up is the family support and the, the exterior perception of what the beer, the beer industry is like, the beer community is like, and you, especially as a woman in this beer situation. So thank you for bringing that up because that is not something I would have thought about. Um, so that brings me another question that I can add to my list. You know, what, what is your family or, you know, what kind of, not just your in-the-industry mentors, but what kind of support or reaction have you gotten from those around you that you love and interact with outside of the beer? 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:55.000 I feel like now it's, um, now that it's been a while and they see how much school has gone through and, um, all the resources when they come over, I've got books all over the coffee table. I think they respect it a lot more now. And it's, it's been really cool to bring in family, um, to show them the facility and, and explain, uh, veer a little more in depth, or to bring a beer out to my parents, they typically don't drink beer, or if they do it's, it's not that stellar. Um, it's, it's been really fun to introduce them to that. And I think people get it now. Um, and I think they see that it really lights me up, and I'm just really into it. Um, so that's been, that's always exciting. So anytime I get a chance to show something new at, the brewery, I'm like, “Oh good.” 00:22:55.000 --> 00:23:43.000 You know, or “I can teach you about this beer. I can invite you to a bottle share at our house,” um, which we love to host. Uh, we have so many beers that we cellar, uh, we're needing a second and maybe a third refrigerator, um, ‘cause we have so many. And it's just fun to share that with people or, um, when super like, “oh, it's beer’s gross,” or “I don't like beer.” That's my favorite person to talk to. It's like, “Well, do you like coffee? Do you like chocolate? Then you'll probably like a stout.” And finding the parallels between food and beer has been cool. Um, it's made me want to start cooking, which that's amazing and cooking with beers is really fun. Um, it's, it's cool to find a really neat, uh, like smoked Schwarzbier and marinate a tri tip in it and then make that. 00:23:43.000 --> 00:25:05.000 And my husband's like, “Wow, when did this happen?” And like, it's weird. Um, it motivates me to do things. Um, but, uh, one other thing I think is cool is that, um, the breweries are expanding down into South Bay. Um, we recently purchased a house about like four years ago and being in National City in an area that was kind of a beer free zone, it's really neat to see breweries start to creep down in there. Um, Machete Alehouse (Beer House) is I think it's Ale House is the rest of their name. Um, but it's a husband and wife that own it. And she's the sweetest she's always really, um, great, um, always really welcoming of women coming in. And it's so neat to see it pushing into South Bay into communities, like you said, that don't necessarily, um, reach out for craft beer. Um, that a lot of the, my neighbors, you know, to their bits kind of go into the liquor store, and they'll buy like a forty pack of Natty Ice for $4, when they wonder, “Why would you spend eight bucks on a 22 ounce of beer?” Um, and it's, it's cool to expose them to that, um, and be like, “Hey, this is, you know, this is an offering at your liquor store next to you, try this out” And then, you know, maybe they'll get into the community more as well and kind of find some advancement. But it's, it's great to see it pushing into National City now. 00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:20.000 Do you think National City is, um, because of the economic basis or was National City just not legislated for breweries? I know that's something that winds up having to be done in every single city. 00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:46.000 I know Chula Vista was a lot more welcoming to the breweries coming in, um, National City with it. Um, when I was a kid, there was lots of crime. Um, it's slowly kind of fading out now. So I don't, I, it could be a factor of that. Um, of seeing breweries is more of an invitation for those activities to go on. But, um, it could be a city thing. It could be, I don’t know. 00:25:46.000 --> 00:26:45.000 I mean, I can see a business person looking at that saying, you know, looking at the demographics, looking at the income level, looking at the legis—the rules and regs that the city has passed, you know. Is it a welcoming climate or not? Because you know, up in North County, I've been watching Indian Joe, I drive past Indian Joe every single day. And he's had his Coming Soon sign up now for a year? Or better? And, you know, and yet other breweries in Vista have seem to be opening up. So it's like, is it just he's had problems or is just, uh, did these other breweries that opened up--have they been in the process as long, but just not as visible as a big, giant sign on a building right next to Highway 78? Yeah. So I actually, one of our faculty members knows, um, the owner, and she goes, “Oh, and as soon as he's opened, you know, we'll go there and have a beer,” and I'm thinking, “Great, ‘cause I would love to pick his brain and see what's going on. 00:26:45.000 --> 00:28:35.000 But I know that Vista was very welcoming to a winery that was in Oceanside and then they moved into Vista and then they kind of collapsed and fell apart through no fault of the cities. But they did struggle a little bit with getting it there, even though Vista was supporting them to move in. It was like once they started trying to actually go through the process, it wasn't all that simple. And so, and I know the SUDS documentary there is mentioned in there. I think it was Skip Virgilio. But I'm not, I could be wrong, was saying how, when he went to get licenses or no, it was Chris Kramer of Karl Strauss. He said, “When we went to get licensed, you know, the city didn't know what to do with us. And we said well, what's Alpine doing or whoever it was?” And they didn't know that because nobody had ever gone to get a license. And so that kind of showed that, and of course, Chris didn't mean to expose somebody else, but he just said, “Well, you've got one open. Why can't we do the same model?” It turned out there was no model because the others hadn’t followed the process. So yeah, the legislation and all that is always real tricky and something of interest to me because I also, um, we're a government documents depository, so I kind of like that whole legal issue thing and the constraints that our government puts on us many times probably for our own good, but in other ways it really stifles things. But then, um, there was another question I had. Generally with an oral history, I'm just supposed to let you talk, but it's like, okay. You know, questions are coming up. And I can certainly ask and, um, oh, the Cicerone. Tell me about that process please. 00:28:35.000 --> 00:30:56.000 Oh man. So I believe the, uh, well, the whole process of Cicerone in the beginning is the certified beer server, which, um, a lot of breweries require you to have. Manzanita was encouraging and paid for it. Um, all of the $80 that it was. Um, but it was just general beer keeping, um, basic stuff. Um, I feel like that should be a requirement for all servers to know, um, which most places will require it, but I think it's just great knowledge. Um, so that's the level one. It's a recognized level and it's kind of not um, and then the next level is Certified Cicerone, and that's when you can officially call yourself a Cicerone. Um, once you pass that test, it's about 400 bucks and I believe there's a written component, a tasting, and a practical. Uh, one of our girls here just took her test, um, for the second time, and, um, it's a lot of studying independently. Um, you have to learn about hop flavors. Um, there's a syllabus outlined online, about what is, could possibly be on the test. Um, but it's really intense. I have had a couple of friends take it, uh, mixed, mixed reviews on how they did. Um, but, and then the next level is advanced Cicerone, I believe, uh, which is cool. One of my, uh, girlfriends, uh, over at Modern Times, she's the only Advanced Cicerone in southern California as a female, uh, which I think is really cool. Um, and then up from there is Master, and that's the highest level that you can go. So a Cicerone is kind of the equivalent of a Som (sommelier) for beer world. Um, but, uh, yeah, that's definitely something I want to, to go with. Uh, just studying independently sometimes goes better than expected or not expected. Um, all, I think I'm going to try to take it once I get out of the SDSU program. Um, so I feel like I'll have a, at least a general gist to refer back on to supplement any extra readings I've done. Um, cause I'll remember it back from a class. So that's kinda what I'm waiting for, but yeah, Cicerone is definitely something that's in the sights for sure. Um, and once I attain Cicerone, I'd be interested in going on to the other levels as well, because like I said, you never know everything, and there's so much about beer, there there's so many different avenues that you can go down and, um, you just you'll never know it all. And that's the coolest thing. 00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:35.000 And then you also mentioned, you know, cooking with beer and things like that. Um, something I've seen that I find very interesting is the, um, the tie of food trucks to tasting rooms and breweries. I mean, I realize it's a symbiotic relationship and the fact that the food trucks have to go get that health license because that's a whole different thing than what the breweries have to do. But, um, do you see that continuing, do you think that maybe it's more breweries are going to be going into opening their own eating establishments? 00:31:35.000 --> 00:32:45.000 Um, I mean, I know for us, everyone assumes because we're so large that we have a kitchen and there's also The Mission around the corner that serves the pancakes that everyone confuses us with. Um, and I have to explain to the customers, no, we're not the pancake place that's around the corner. Um, were the breweries having food trucks, a lot of it's, uh, licensing, um, that they can have a kitchen or there's not enough space. And it already is so costly to open a facility that extra kitchen staff and, um, again, all the regulations for health codes that would add a burden to people. Uh, so I think it's really cool to have the variety of food trucks and again, um, extend the community of support to, you know, expose another local business, to help out and partner up. Um, and also for the safety of the customer as being able to eat some food after they've had a few drinks and, um, hopefully manage themselves safely and accordingly. Um, it's always cool when there is a food truck at a brewery and you didn't expect it, or it's one of your favorite ones and you’re hanging out at the breweries a lot, you really get to know the owners of the food trucks and it's, it's kind of a fun relationship to follow them and support their journey as well. 00:32:45.000 --> 00:33:04.000 Yeah, I've noticed on some of the websites, they'll actually have the schedule of which food trucks are coming, and they'll actually say, “We're going to be brewing this, which we'll go with the food on that truck that day,” which I think is really wonderful. I've also met, um, I've talked to Johna (Richards) and met Tony of So Rich chocolates. Oh yeah. That chocolate. Oh my gosh. 00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:10.000 They’re my favorite chocolatier ever. 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:25.000 Oh, I had to email them cause I, I was at the Craft Beer Expo in Sacramento and I did, um, Dr. Bill's wine—or beer and chocolate tasting at 9:00 AM on a Saturday morning. And I was just like, “Really 9:00 a.m. beer.” 00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:28.000 Sounds perfect to me. Sounds a little late for me, honestly. 00:33:28.000 --> 00:34:17.000 Then you mentioned, you know, that they were in Vista and I was like, perfect. So, yeah. And I find that interesting that they've tied themselves and it's actually, it's funny because now that I think about it several years ago, um, I knit, and Thursday nights to get together with my knitting group. And there was one woman in there whose daughter was making cupcakes with beer and taking them in to a brewery up in North County. I won't say who, because that was probably highly illegal because it was just, you know, home baked beer-infused cupcakes, and everybody was just raving about them and stuff. And I know her daughter didn't continue to pursue that line, but I was like that, you know, that certainly seems like something that you could do because up here, all these breweries popping up, you know, you can start doing, you know, baked goods with beer. 00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:58.000 I love, uh, making, uh, the stout cupcakes. And again, back to I'd rather bake than cook. Um, but I was choosing a different beer every time I made it to see how it tasted and how it changed it. And then obviously keeping a beer for myself ‘cause I was realizing I was shorting the recipe because I was drinking it in the process of convincing myself to bake. Um, but that's fun, but I mean I'll bake, uh, treats with beer from the brewery and bring it to, um, the employees. Um, just as a thank you for all the kindness and yeah, Fall (Brewing Company?) has been requesting some more cookies from me. Um, I just heard from them last night. 00:34:58.000 --> 00:36:00.000 But yeah, actually, um, for one I also hike and one Friday, if we hike on Friday nights, we wind up at one of the local breweries. We were at Rip Current or whatever. And I brought chocolate cupcakes with chocolate coffee frosting, and everybody was raving about how good they were with the beer. And I had not even thought about it. It was just like, yeah, we want to celebrate Ken's birthday, and I'll bring him some cupcakes because he's a single older man that I know doesn’t bake, you know, and I just wanted to do something besides chocolate, although chocolate is always good. So I threw the coffee, instant coffee in there, and it was just perfect with the beers that they were drinking. I'm a very lightweight beer drinker. I don't, I think it's something that you have to work yourself up to. And when I was in Sacramento, um, I did get introduced to fruits sours, which were, you know, I was like, "Oh, okay. I can, I can do this.” It's not real overly coffee flavored or burnt flavored or hoppy or anything like that. 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:11.000 Sours are kind of my final frontier of, of beer. Um, my first love was stouts because I drank an obscene amount of coffee because of the preschool. Um, and that was just, I could— 00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:15.000 That seems like a real parallel level of a strength. 00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:59.000 Definitely. Um, and I could, I mean, I just, I love stouts. Um, I can drink a stout when it's a hundred degrees in July, and it's just what my most favorite style. I always default to it if I can't figure out what I want on the board and that's what I go for. Um, and then IPAs were a slow venture in, um, and with working in beer, presenting beer to new people that don't drink it all the time or they're intimidated by it. Um, I thought in order to like craft beer in the beginning that you had to love IPAs and the friends of mine that were presenting these beers to me, they were so aggressive and so intense that looking at, if I were to give that same beer to somebody new, there'd be no way. Um, and I think that's why I shunned IPAs until I finally zeroed in on what are my favorite hops? 00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:57.000 Um, why do I like this? Can I drink more than just a sip or two of this beer? And thus it went forward, but sours, I'm still trying to keep an open mind on, um, uh, try not to shut out. It's a slow process, but, um, yeah. And then the beer and cheese, that changed my life. Um, I thought I didn't like cheese until I had it with beer at Dr. Bill's class and now I go into a fromagerie, and I just, I spend all kinds of money and it's not so much that I'm pairing up the beers with the cheeses, but it just complements it so well. And, uh, we led, uh, or I led a beer and cheese pairing here with Smallgoods from La Jolla, it's husband and wife who own it. And that was really fun to see the parallels between beer and cheese and explain that to and make it accessible. And why is this beer grade? And, um, she was able to bring the cheese side of things, which I'm still lost on, but, um, it's opened up a box for me. 00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:17.000 It sounds almost like you could very easily find yourself in, again, kind of going back to your educational background, into tastings and marketing and you know, a more formalized education environment with beers, you know, kind of like what Dr. Bill or, you know— 00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:42.000 Yeah. I would love to teach. Um, I'm back when I was with the preschool, I always thought about teaching a children's literature class someday, um, just for fun. And, uh, once I get way more school to be considered anything reputable, um, I'd be interested in maybe doing something like that, even if it was just a community college level or just a workshop that, you know, we offered here. I think that'd be fun. 00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:44.000 Children’s books and beer. 00:38:44.000 --> 00:39:57.000 Um, I, yoga is a hobby of mine and, um, as I'm teaching my girlfriends, I say that you can either pay me in beer or you can enter a competition. And if it's a beer that I haven't had, you get an extra entry credit. Um, but I'm, I call myself the Craft Yogi and, uh, it's just the whole thing is we do yoga and then we will get a beer afterwards, which seems to be, um, I know there's lots of other females running the same kind of thing with the hobby yoga, and can't think of any other ones, but we just hosted one the other evening, but it's, it's great. Anything you can do to get women to drink beer. Um, so I feel like it's also a stigma of women don't drink beer. And if you are the only girl that orders a beer out with your girlfriends, everyone looks at you and I'm just used to it now, honestly. Um, and used to their, their faces of distaste when they try it and they can drink their fruity cocktails and their white Zin with ice cubes in it, um, I’ll just go ahead and drink my, my beers and be happy with that. Um it's but yeah, I've, I feel like it is a stigma for beer-drinking women, but I'm into it. Those are the kinds of ladies I want to know. 00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:04.000 You're breaking the barriers. The stereotypes have got to come down at some point. 00:40:04.000 --> 00:41:01.000 Definitely. Yeah, yeah. And I, I think too, um, with that it's, I mean, I've at this point in my life, maybe because of the teaching, I have no desire to have kids, um, because I spent so long with other people's kids, but I also feel like that's something that would be, um, an obstacle to overcome being a female in the beer industry is it's kind of frowned upon. I feel like, uh, as a girlfriend of mine was, uh, pregnant when she was bartending at a spot here in San Diego and, as she, her belly was getting larger, people were kind of looking at her like, “Oh, you're the pregnant bartender,” like. “That's classy.” And so there's a whole stigma with that too, of how people view you and is, is that appropriate and all this crap. And I just don't want to deal with that, honestly. Um, but I, I feel like one, I couldn't give up beer for that long do this is I don't want to take a break, um, on a career that's like finally getting going that to pause and have a family. That's, that's not quite my interest. 00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:41.000 Well, you sound confident. That's what matters. Yeah, no, um, no, I, I can see the, the, the impression people might have of a pregnant woman working around alcohol. That, that right there, because we've spent so many years talking about fetal alcohol syndrome and everything else. And then, you know, unfortunately there is still the, the low-class cache about for a lot of people, even though when they come into someplace like this and, you know, it's like, “Get over it.” 00:41:41.000 --> 00:42:08.000 Definitely. Um, or I mean, stigmas of even bringing kids to a brewery. Uh, I think even though I, I don't necessarily want children as part of my family at this particular moment in my life. Um, I think it's, you can't shun out the rest of the community that, you know, they're, they like beer just as much as they did before they had kids and you need to offer an environment for the families to come and, um, make alcohol kind of less of a, uh, I mean— 00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.000 Almost elicit. 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:41.000 Um, I, I look at European countries, and it's, it's so accepted. Um, and it's, if you make it a big thing, it's gonna to be a big thing. And I feel like if children are responsibly, you know, can see their parents responsibly enjoying, um, a beverage at dinner or something in the store. Um, they're going to have a, a less kind of inclination to go crazy when they get older. Um, because it's, it's just treated as something normal. And, um, I feel like a lot of the breweries that shun out the kids. Um— 00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:48.000 Well, are there any, uh, regulations against children being in a tasting room or a brewery? 00:42:48.000 --> 00:43:55.000 I know if you obviously have a full, um, liquor license, then you can't, um, there's a bar nearby that had an encounter with a family that didn't understand that, that you can't have babies around hard alcohol, um, at that particular place, um, some places will say, you know, after eight, you can't have any minors. Um, which I think is responsible. Cause adults still need their place to go and get away from kids. Um, there's one right now, but, um, yeah, I, I think there's a time and a place to bring the kids to brew, but I feel like it also needs to be a welcoming environment at the same time and not make the parents feel like they did something wrong because they came in to fill a growler and happened to have a baby on their arm. ‘Cause they're taking it to go. And it just, I don't know, but I feel like that's more of an individual brewery basis on their decision. Um here at Mission we're dog and kid friendly, um, over and beyond, we've got coloring pages for kids and games and um, we host lots of dog events here. It's they're all part of your family. So. 00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:57.000 You need cat events. 00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:01.000 Bring them in. That’d be cool. 00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:40.000 Oh yeah, she'd be real happy about that. She's a cranky old lady, but uh, oh, this has been great, Amy, you have, well, I mean, just your own personal story and then the things you've had to say about how you see your role as a woman, your place as a woman in the brewing industry. That's exactly the sort of thing I want to record. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; &#13 ;  &#13 ; &#13 ; 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SpackmanAmy_DownieJudith_2017-02-13.xml SpackmanAmy_DownieJudith_2017-02-13.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spackman, Amy. Interview February 23, 2017. Description An account of the resource Amy Spackman began working in the tasting room at Mission Brewing in San Diego after switching careers from being a preschool teacher. In this interview she discusses her experience breaking into the San Diego craft brewing industry, her continuing education, and what it is like to be one of few women in the industry. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-066 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Amy Spackman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Subject The topic of the resource Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) El Cajon (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Amy Spackman License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Brewchive(r) Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/9173acfb4043d98a992ece390b686936.pdf 745685fd9a5c04a10e7e266af852c2c4 PDF Text Text ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Sean Visintainer: Hello, this is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Major General Anthony Jackson for the California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History initiative. Today is March 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Major General Jackson, thank you for interviewing with us today. Anthony Jackson: Yeah, you're welcome. It's a, it's a privilege, kind of a, an honor, I guess I should say. Visintainer: These are, uh, the favorite part of my job that I get to do. So it's a real pleasure to have you. I forgot to mention that I will take some notes as we're interviewing, just so you know. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: So I can circle back to questions if I have them. Jackson: All right. Visintainer: Uh, things like that. And I wanted to just start off by asking you about your childhood and your formative years. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: Um, where were you born? Jackson: I was born at Madigan General Hospital in Fort Lewis, Washington. My father was a career soldier. So I was the fourth of his children. Uh, let's see. And being a military brat, you grow up in a lot of different places. But, uh, yeah, my dad, uh, he lied about his age and lied about his parentage to join the army shortly after Pearl Harbor. He met his, my mother in, May of [19]42, and married her in June of the same year. And then he went overseas to Europe for, for three years. In those days they went for the duration and came home to see my, uh, oldest sister was three years old when he got home. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 1 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And then, my older brother was born in [19]46, and then Matt, and then Don was born in [19]48, and then I was born in [19]49, and the Korean War broke out so my mother got a break. Visintainer: Yeah. <laughs>. Jackson: And dad came home in [19]52, and <laughs> Clay was born in [19]53. And then Dana was born in, uh, [19]56, and Tawnya was born in [19]57. I guess they're Irish twins. And that was the last of the kids. But if you notice, I was seven. The girls, Betty is the oldest, and Tanya the youngest. And then there's five boys, and I'm the top dead-center. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, and, uh, highly competitive sports-oriented family with the boys. And, uh, I guess I should say that the main thing in that growing up was, I was kind of taking notes and reviewing my own life a couple weeks ago; that I started school in Germany, did kindergarten and first grade in Germany, and then my dad got stationed in Los Angeles. So I, uh, <Visintainer coughs> spent the second grade in Los Angeles. Then I spent the third grade-- He got sent someplace else, spent the third grade in Houston, Texas, his hometown. And then I spent four through the seventh grade in Colorado at two different schools. And then back to Texas for the eighth <laughs>. And then in the middle of the ninth grade, a couple months into the ninth grade, we moved to California in 1963 as uh, and all my teachers in Texas were excited. I was going to such a great state for academics. And so I got here in October [19]63 as a ninth grader, as the brand new kid talking funny, dressing, funny and-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Fighting my way through the ninth grade. But, so I was fortunate to go to high school in Oakland. You know that they have three-year high school. So all my high school years, I was the first of my brothers and sisters. If you'll see those days, you'll see that they got ripped off <laughs> and didn't go to one single high school, my older one. So I was the first one that kind of got planted at one place. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then, um, and that was really good because counselors and everybody started prepping me for college. Uh, Mrs. [Phyllis] Collier wouldn't let me go. She constantly -- she was my counselor -constantly tried to get me into college prep classes, which she did, and make me take the SATs. You're not going to the state wrestling finals unless you take the SATs. And, uh, and that was a good experience. Yeah. Football became my, uh, my great love of sports, although played a lot of baseball, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 2 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 basketball, and all those kinds of things, wrestled in high school. But I got a football scholarship, offered several scholarships. I was lucky to be... I was born at exactly the right time. You know, the high, the civil rights movement, the, all the sacrifices of so many people during the Civil Rights Movement. When I graduated from high school in 1967, universities were looking for me in terms of race, in terms of athleticism, in terms of grades and SATs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I just happened to be born at that exact right juncture of the civil rights movement and who could get that young African American into the university. But I took a football scholarship <laughs>, because I knew that was just based on pure athleticism or whatever. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: But it was still important. That was, the doors were opening wide, and I just happened to be the right age, born at right time as well. So that was my kind of through high school, uh, living in a lot of different places. Three years in Germany, four years in Colorado, off and on in Texas. And so, um, with mom and dad always providing a good solid family basis, and my mother was incredibly, like, I still look back and, you know here I was a high-ranking officer, [inaudible] and having two kids was expensive. <laughs> Here my dad was a sergeant in the army, not an officer. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And he, and somehow she managed to put together great meals that we were all healthy and athletic and all that. And I still wonder how she did it. It was pretty-- she was pretty fantastic. She sewed our clothes and did all kinds of things that, you know sometimes I see the kids walking around here with patches and torn jeans and all that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That would've been so embarrassing for my family. <laughter> We were, we were poor, you know, <laughs> and here these kids, I guess middle class kids that, that wanted to look like that <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 3 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: We would've been totally embarrassed. And mom would sew up those torn spots. Visintainer: You said she was, uh, she managed to make great meals for everybody in your family. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: I was curious, is there a, is there a, a particular meal or food that really evokes memories of your childhood? Jackson: I would say that we ate a lot of cooked cereal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, things like cornmeal and oatmeal and grits and yeah. And, um, it was because it was inexpensive and filled with nutrition. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I presume and it filled you up, you know? And so, uh, yeah. And you never turned your back on your plate. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Spaghetti and meatballs, you turn your back <laughs>. One of those meatballs was gonna be missing you know, <laughs>. I mean, you never missed dinner. You never missed a meal. You were always home. You didn't wear a watch. You didn't have a watch, but you knew what dinnertime was. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 4 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And you knew, you knew that, uh, you know, to be home for dinner. Um, so my mother was a, just a great cook. And, uh, and I just remember that there was always a meal, uh, sometimes they were pretty creative. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Like, she would make syrup out of, uh, out of sugar and water, and she'd just melt it down. And that would be the syrup for your pancakes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, she didn't, orange juice, you know, if the can said "mix three cans of water with this," she'd probably mix four, four or five you know, stretching things out. She could do that. But, uh... Man, she-Yeah, you would never turn down one of her meals. I would just say that, uh, everything she cooked was worthy of eating. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Except turnips. <laughter> Visintainer: So that was the, that was the vegetable. That was-Jackson: Yeah, that was the one. I mean I liked all the other green vegetables and stuff like that. But I never really, I was kind of amazed when I was being recruited. I was being recruited to play football at UC [University of California] Berkeley. And, um, they brought me into the Bear's Lair, Bear's Lair, their kind of campus restaurant. And they put a salad in front of me, a green salad with just lettuce-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I said, what <laughs>, what am I supposed to do with this? Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 5 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Because I'd never had a lettuce salad that I could ever have recalled. So I had to watch, uh what the coaches who were recruiting me were doing with that <laughs>, 'cause our meals were substantial. And [inaudible] they were designed to fill you up, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: As a kid more than anything. Yeah. Visintainer: Did, uh, did you live on bases? Jackson: Yeah. We s-- you know, um... We, we, we lived on and off base. The military, it wasn't until my time in the military, the military used to be when you got stationed overseas, families had to move off the base housing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And it was in my times in, I think in the, uh, I want to say in the 1980s, that even though your, uh, spouse was overseas, you could stay on base, uh, at least in the Marine Corps. But we lived, um, sometimes we'd stay a while with relatives. But my mother was from Salt Lake City, Utah. And so we would sometimes stage there for a couple months before we went overseas or before we went to California or something like that. And, but, let's see, on-- in Germany, yeah, all that time was on military base. Colorado was four years on military base. Oakland, the first couple of years we lived on a military base, but my dad also kept a little home in Houston, Texas. And a couple of times we would move into that house. And uh, but when he retired from the Army when I was a senior in high school, he bought a home in Oakland. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: And that was my senior year so that was the first year I had moved up in the pecking order to get a bedroom by myself. 'Cause we usually lived in a three-bedroom house, one [bedroom] for mom and dad, one for the two girls and then the last one, <laughs> was either for my older brother, if it was small. And we, like in Colorado the older brother had a room, and then the four younger ones slept in the basement. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 6 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: In bunk beds, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then finally when I was a senior, I got a room to myself for a few months when <laughs>, you know, so, um--But we settled, the family settled in Oakland. And that's where my mother and father lived until they passed away. And, uh, they-- so it was, uh, the military bases are sort of protected in some ways from-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: A little bit different than society, you know. And then even as I went through my career, we stayed on bases sometimes. Not always. Visintainer: Uh, you said that the military bases are protected and different from society. Jackson: Yeah. Its-- They're, they're a little bit different-Visintainer: Could you explain-Jackson: Because first of all, I'll never forget, like when we were stationed in Hawaii, and my kids were like six months old when we got there, and two years old. So they were pretty young. But by the time they were there, we were there for a year or two. The military police knew where your kids belong. They knew what house. If they saw your kid running amuck someplace, "Yeah, maybe you had to go back to your yard," you know, because-- And so from that standpoint, and military police are a different sort of presence. They're more like the old neighborhood police officers. They're Marines essentially. And now they have some civilians that do that on military bases. The other thing is: all your neighbors, you're all in the same boat <laughs>. You know, you're gonna say, although, you know, you have sometimes segregated housing based on rank. Um, um, and they [military bases] have their elementary school, they have their grocery stores. They have their equivalent of a Walmart or 7-Eleven. They have their gas stations, their fire department, the hospital. So you have a city, literally, or maybe even several towns, like as big as Camp Pendleton is, there are several schools in like the northern part. Once you get to high school, uh, and junior high, you go to San Clemente Public Schools. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 7 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: On the, on the eastern side, where I lived on the base, or southeastern side, you go to Fallbrook schools and on the south side of the base, you go to Ocean-- your kids go to Oceanside schools. So, uh, but, um, everybody's employed, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: There is a hierarchy, you know. If you're-- That is respected. Kids stop when they're hearing the national anthem is being played every morning at eight o'clock. If they're at the playground in the morning at eight o'clock, or when the flag's coming down in the evening at sunset, they'll stop. And you'll see kindergarteners stand in position of attention, while getting off the swings and the teeter-totter or whatever they call them now. And uh, it's kind of unique. Even my Great Dane used to know to stop and sit when the national anthem was being played <laughs>, you know, just-- So it's a, and race is erased. Mostly. I mean we're all a product of American society. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Um, um, and it's more, I would say it's more of a meritocracy in terms of what you experience and how you experience, and your rank and your uniform automatically entitles you to X amount of respect. And everybody rec-- and that includes the general has to respect the most junior person, you know. And so uh, you're somewhat protected and there's rules that are, that are pretty strict, you know? And even the, even the nurses in the emergency room got to know my sons <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "Hey, Brian, what are you in here for this time?" You know <laughs>. He's a skateboarder. Bashed his skull, skinned his face, you know, all of that stuff. And they know him. "Uh, okay. You're a Jackson kid. All right. Okay." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Do you, do you think that that experience was similar for your father? Jackson: No my dad, he lived a whole different world. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 8 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's one of the stage setters. When he, when he was 17 years old, trying to get into the military in 1942, Marines didn't accept Blacks into the military. It wasn't until a year later, you know. And he lived in Texas, you know, grew up in Texas. And in his youth and for a long time, even through a portion of my youth, Texas was one of the most violent places to be African American. I mean I had a, I had one of my Marines, a master gunnery sergeant, a very senior enlisted Marine, who was my senior enlisted advisor. And he's a Texan, African American. And his father was lynched in Texas. And so what's your, um-- You know, so there's, there's, there's only a generation or two that separates you from that kind of conduct. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And when my dad joined the Army, it was segregated. Matter of fact, he was stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City, 'cause that's where one of the last of the Buffalo Soldiers were stationed at, at, at, um, even at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century, the Buffalo Soldiers had been stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City. And so when they started bringing in African Americans into the US Army for World War II, that became a place where they trained. And so they didn't have a USO [United Service Organization], they had a USO for white soldiers, but they didn't even have a USO for Black soldiers. So in creating a USO for Black soldiers, now they recruited my mother <laughs>, you know, to be one of the hostesses. And that's how they met. And within two weeks they were married. Geez. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they stayed married, you know. Um, so. And dad, I am sure when I see, you know, I think he was extraordinarily smart, extraordinarily clever. And you had to be more clever to survive, I think, in those days, because there were a lot of racial booby traps that you could walk into. And I think that, um, I don't know all of the history of that, but he should have been, with the number of years he spent in, 24 years, he should have been a higher rank in most circumstances. And I won't recall what the family's story is as to why, but I have pictures of him at a higher rank. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then he retired at another rank, lowered, 10 years later, you know. So he was, so there was an incident that occurred, I think, with my older brother, Matt. And he was, an officer had bumped him on his bicycle and knocked him to the ground and knocked a tooth out, and when my dad was called to the scene, this is more family lore, the officer used the N-word in referring to my, my brother. And the officer was white, and my dad reflexively hit him. And he was a master sergeant at the time. And, uh, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 9 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 this was when we lived in Germany. And my dad was a prize fighter too. He was really good. At one time he was, uh, rated in the world and he was an alternate on the 1948 Olympic team as a light heavyweight. And, um, and so, uh... But the army liked him enough to keep him, but they had to do something. And so he became reduced in rank by one and then permanently put in that rank. Jackson: And he stayed in that rank for another, I want to say twelve years, which is not normal. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Even today or yesteryear, that wouldn't have been normal. So they liked him, but they [inaudible]. So he paid a price that I could-- I didn't pay. And when I joined the Marine Corps, <laughs>, I'll never forget what him saying, "Why did you want to join that redneck outfit?" Because remember, in [19]42, they wouldn't take, they took a lot of, and it was [19]43, they had their first [Black] officer, they had their first [Black] pilot in about 1950, first general African American in 1981, Frank Petersen. So it's uh, it was kind of a, you know, my, my my answer to him was, if not me, who? Somebody has to be. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I was not the first but I was one of the few at the time that came in. And General Petersen leading the way, of course. But yeah, dad had a different life. Mom had a different life. She, I mean education, that was the key difference. You know, is that I was fortunate my mother and father were both high school grads and both of them believed in the power of education. So that was, I think it was really vital to the development of all of us. And then coming to California, which when I came here, it was the number one best school system, public school system in the nation. And I don't know-- If I understand, it doesn't rank very high now, but when I came here, the, you know, from the high school to the community colleges, to the state colleges and state universities, uh, it couldn't be better. So another lucky break for Tony Jackson. Visintainer: Yeah. <Jackson laughs> Um, you mentioned your dad grew up in Texas. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And he had kept a house there for quite a while. Jackson: Right. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 10 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Was he particularly, uh, happy when he got stationed in Houston? Jackson: You know, that's something that I would've been too young. He was, he wasn't stationed in Houston. He was stationed in another-- at, uh, Fort Hood, which is outside [Houston]. I don't think that-- he never expressed that. And I was too young if he, if he emoted it to my mother, you know? That was, that would've been grown-up talk back in those days. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But Houston was segregated. It was, the schools were segregated. It was kind of ironic because I'd lived on army bases. I'd done most of my-- Up until the time we moved to Texas, when I was in the third grade, I did kindergarten, first grade in Germany at integrated school, at the military school on base. And then we came out to California. But that was a short stay. But I did second grade in integrated schools. Then all of a sudden, in third grade, I'm in this town and the part of town where dad had a house, everybody's Black, the policeman's Black, the pharm is Black, the teachers and principals, they're all Black. And that was the first, you know, uh, 1958. And, uh, it was, uh, it was very interesting. Corporal punishment, <laughs>. That's the first time I met that one too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Where the teachers could paddle you? Yeah. You, they, they, they still did that. I remember getting my hand paddled because my writing was so poor <laughs>. Um, but, um... So we moved there [Houston] because he did not want us probably to live in the part of Texas where that base was, and close to relatives. He had a, uh, his, his half-sister lived there, the aunt that helped raise him lived in Houston. And so, and his father lived in Houston. And so, uh, we lived there just a half mile or so from his sister and my aunt, Juanita. And so, uh... And he never gave any indication that he wanted, um, wanted to live there permanently in Houston. You know, I mean, the movie theaters, in those days, you had to sit in the balcony, even the beaches were s-- you know, they had a rope. This was for white people. This was for Black people. Don't cross the rope. The drinking. I remember as a 13 year-old doing a sit-in, in the eighth grade, when we moved back there the second time, the civil rights movement was pretty churned up. And young people, high school, college were doing sit-ins at, uh, at the drug stores that didn't allow you to sit at the soda fountains. You might be able to buy something there, but don't sit down at the counter. And I remember myself from a couple of my eighth and ninth grade buddies, we decided, we were waiting for a bus, and we wanted a RC Cola and a moon pie. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 11 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And we walked into the local drugstore to buy 'em, and we decided we were gonna sit at the lunch counter, like all these kids were doing around the nation. So we did our little sit-in, and they, this big old guy comes out from somewhere in the warehouse, and he's pounding on a billy club, like, "Hmm, what are you kids doing?" But he didn't say anything to us, just the, the waitress behind the counter. She was very nervous trying to get us to get up. And we looked over and saw him and just waved. And then our bus came and we walked out. But it was our little, that was our little act of defiance. And every now and then, you'd have to say if not me who? And so we sat at a lunch counter for a while, you know. Visintainer: So I had seen it in another interview. You'd referenced this, uh, lunch counter sit-in. Uh, didn't go into detail. And so I wanted to ask you a few questions about it. So it was, uh, it was totally spontaneous? You were-Jackson: Yeah. It was spontaneous. We, it was, it was in the news. People were doing it in Virginia, in Memphis, and, you know, and it was a, you knew there was a kind of a hazard you could end up, you know, uh... in jail or something, you know. But we just, I think there's been a couple of times where I've been involved in civil rights protests, but where you just have to do something, you know. I mean, I mean, you just-- I watched my older sister, probably one of the greatest acts of defiance that I've ever seen: my older sister, Betty, she's 80 years old yesterday, and she's just as tough as she was when she was. But I was riding a bus with her in Houston, and this was in the fifties too, so it had to be about [19]58. And we were riding across town, heading home, and we, we sat right in front of the bus. Whether she was thinking, you know... You got to, she's, she's a pretty feisty little-- and then she would've only been about 13 or 14, and I would've been third grade. And, so we sat in the front of the bus, and the bus driver stopped, and the bus was crowded, and he wanted-- bus driver stopped and came out, told her she had to get up, go back of the bus and let these white people sit down. And I'm like, "Hmm." I'm only nine years old. So I'm like, hmm, this big old guy is <Jackson gestures>. And then she refused to move. And, um... And then he balled up his fist and he threatened her, and she refused to move. And, uh, and she just sat there, and then he had to go drive that bus <laughs>, and he left her alone the rest of the ride. She never budged. Visintainer: That's very courageous. Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the way she is. And so you, you know, I've seen, and, you know you grew up with those pictures on tv, the Birmingham and all that stuff, and Little Rock and, bombings and kids with-- and so you knew that there was this tension. But like I tell people, and I gave a speech the other day for Black History. I was always a person that took literally the words of the, the, the preamble to the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Gettysburg Address. And I remember I had to memorize the preamble in the Gettysburg Address and the first couple of paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence when I was in segregated schools in Houston, Texas, in the ninth grade. And I took those words literally. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 12 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: And I looked at my dad's service, and he had obviously paid a, you know, paid for his citizenship, wearing that uniform for 24 years. And so I always have had the feeling and, uh, that, "Hey, if you're, if you're better than me, that means you can whip me in the football field or wrestling, or you can beat me on the spelling bee or the math bee or something like that. But you don't automatically get that <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That's not an automatic. <laughs> I walk through the door like you walk through the door, and then we'll see how it goes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, and I guess that's, I even, uh, even in my own career, I kept that same kind of attitude. And you know, and I've got deep roots that in terms of where my family comes from, especially on my mother's side. My wife does these great genealogies. And, I actually book brought the book that she has kind of put together. Rather than just a photo album, she puts together genealogical albums, and they're kind of cool. Visintainer: Nice. Jackson: I'll show you at some point if you want to see it. Visintainer: Yeah, I'd love to. Jackson: Yeah. But, so, but, you know. One of the things I do tell people, sometimes younger people is that, we like to say that we're all born equal. And that's a kind of an idealistic sort of thing. But if your mother was a drug addict and you were born addicted, you're not the same as the guy who's like, my kids, you know, their dad was already an officer, and already was financially stable, their mother was healthy, a registered dietician, and what she did during her pregnancy is very different than what this-- And so the kids start out equal in terms of under whatever your religion is, under your god's eye, maybe they're equal, but in terms of what the world's offering 'em right now, real different. Okay. And so things like race-- and so I say, "Everybody's born with a backpack, and in that backpack is X amount of rocks." And it's a little bit different, what the weight is at birth. Now, as you go through life, you can take out a rock or you can add a rock. Some of 'em are based on choices of, of your own choice. And some of 'em are Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 13 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 based on family choices or just accidents. And race is one of those things that can either be, um, a rock, a heavy rock in your pack. Or it can lighten your load. And that's one of the ironic things about it is for my dad, it was probably a heavier rock, but for me, it lightened the load. It might have actually lightened the load, you know? And so as we-- As you-- And so as a result of that, his carrying a heavy rock and me having much lighter load, I owe him something. But more than that, I owe the next generation something too for that. And, you know, does that make sense? Visintainer: Yeah, that's a wonderful analogy. And something I've never heard phrased that way. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I think it's, it's uh, befitting somebody who was in the military to talk about <Jackson laughs> weight and backpacks. Jackson: Yeah, right, yeah. <laughter>, I guess, so <laughs>. Visintainer: Did you come up with the analogy when you were in the military,? Jackson: Yeah. Yeah, probably. I did. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. I was in you know, it is, uh, it's -- life is like that. Now, and you, and a lot of times, and once you get to be a certain age, and I was telling this young man that I met, he was very bold. He was in the high school, junior ROTC [Reserve Officers Training Corps] at an event a month or so ago, and he walks right up to me having, I was introduced as a general. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And here's this, you know, maybe 14 year-old kid. He was in the ninth grade. And I said, "You know what?" I said, uh, I asked him about his grades and all that. I said kind of, "You're lightening your load. You're an honor student. You wear that uniform well. You're doing athletics, keep doing that. Everything you do, it counts from the ninth grade on. I mean, that's when you're getting your GPA counts, you getting your PSATs, you're doing all these kinds of things that people are gonna judge your next opportunity on -- post high school." And says, "So, you young man are lightening your load, you know, so keep it going." Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 14 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Yeah. So it is kind of a, yeah. I guess it's military <laughs> speak. Can't help it <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Um, I just had one follow up question about, uh, about your drugstore sit-in. Well, actually, I guess I had a couple. What was the drugstore? Jackson: You know, I'm trying to remember the, because I don't want to-- we had a lot of Walgreens in that part of the country. So I think it was Walgreens at the time, that, uh, it was right at our bus stop. And, uh, yeah. Then they, they became quite a target for students, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's a, nowadays they don't even have the soda fountains in the drugstore like they did in those days, you know? But yeah, I'm pretty, I'm about 90% sure it was Walgreens. Because number one, because I don't remember any other of the drug stores that were there. And it was, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But-Visintainer: Did, uh, did you ever tell your parents? Jackson: Yeah. Well, at that time, dad was someplace else. I think dad was stationed in close to the North Pole in Greenland. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Yeah. And so we were in Houston for that stay. And, um... And I probably told my mother. When I was that [inaudible] age... I really, it was hard for me to imagine living beyond eighteen. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We lived in Houston. You know, we lived-- we were bused to school past the white high school and junior high into what you might call the ghetto. Fifth Ward in Houston. And it was nicknamed "Bloody Fifth" for good reason, because somebody was getting killed kind of routinely. It was a very violent part of Houston, Texas. And, uh, my junior high and eighth and ninth grade was in Fifth Ward. And my older brothers and sister, they went to Phyllis Wheatley [High School]. I went to E.O. Smith [Junior High] which was named after a African American poet. And, I was probably in a fight, like... I mean, here I was this Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 15 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 guy that didn't have an accent. And I was marked, even my teacher, I remember my English teacher mocking my, uh, "trying to talk like a Kennedy," she told me. She told the whole class, 'cause I was reading something and she stopped me. And she, "What are you trying to talk like a Kennedy?" I said, "This is the way we talk in my family." I didn't know this was any different, but yeah, coming to the south, you're talking different and you don't have their accent. And, uh, and so I was kind of a prime target for a while. And yeah. And fortunately I played football and you know, and I had two big bad older brothers. And so, but it was like-- you know, you had to fight. And then right in the middle of ninth grade, I moved to Oakland. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Which hardly <laugh>, is just that much better. <Jackson holds up fingers about an inch apart, laughs> But that was only two fights. So that was quick and easy. And fortunately we were all trained to box and stuff like that, so it turned out all right. But really when I was fourteen, fifteen, I thought eighteen would be, "Yeah. Eighteen's about right." You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so you, you, you were already, you know, so when I say I'm <laughs> seventy-three, you know, I'm a happy camper. <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: Exceeded expectations. <laughs>. Yeah. Visintainer: Um, I was curious about when your, when your father was deployed, you said he was deployed to Korea and was he deployed in World War II? Jackson: He was in World War II, but I was not even born, and so the war, he wasn't deployed. He had seven kids by the time Vietnam, so the Army wouldn't send him. You know, that would've been quite a burden. So he did not, well, he served during the Vietnam War in the early stages, he never deployed to Vietnam. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 16 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 The family member that got deployed to Vietnam was my older brother, Matt. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: He was, he was drafted. Uh, and yeah, the way it worked out was that my older sister had graduated from high school. I ended up being the first one to graduate from college, just 'cause my older sister, it wasn't the norm or the expectation. And she had gotten married and had a kid, so, and she's probably as smart or smarter than every one of us. And then Matt, my older brother, there wasn't the financials in the family and he had gone to [Jackson makes chopping motion with hand] four. Different. High schools. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Every year. And so, although he's a better athlete than I ever was, he was never recognized in one spot, scouted out by universities or anything. So he ended up going to Chico State [California State University, Chico] a year later on an English literature scholarship. Um, and because he was a year behind his peers, he didn't have the college credits necessary to avoid the draft. And so he got drafted. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And then he goes in the army, goes to Vietnam and gets really some disease and maybe even Agent Orange. Uh, he-- affected him very badly over there. And so he was medically evacuated from Vietnam to San Francisco. There was a big army hospital in San Francisco and eventually discharged, got his GI bill, went back to college, got his B.A., Got his master's degree, and became a dean of students up at Butte [California] Community College. So he lived a really good life. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Great kids, two outstanding kids. And then a terrific wife, Billie. Billie passed away a couple years ago, but she's just been selected, gonna have a big induction ceremony through the Chico State Hall of Fame. And so she, and here's his daughter is the CEO, Joy is the CEO. It's not the GRE but there's another graduate record thing, you know, and so Matt did well, so. Don, my older brother, short time in the Air Force, booted him out for whatever he did wrong <laughs>, you know, but I'm the only one that made it a career [inaudible]. So, uh, um, yeah. But, but mom was always that glue. Just like my wife Sue is the glue for my boys and who did most of the child raising. I had this big strong boxer-soldier dad that I really looked up to and was my lifetime hero. But mom was actually doing the hard work. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 17 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: And probably the same thing in my family in terms of, you know, dad's a Marine and a officer and doing his thing and going away and, and, but the military spouses who get left behind, they do a lot of the child raising, set the standards. And so when people say thank you for your service, they really ought to be talking to the spouses. <laughs> Visintainer: Well, and that's something I was kind of curious about in that, when, when somebody's deployed, and if there's, I guess this is kind of a complicated question that I'm formulating as I go along, so I apologize if it gets a little jumbled, but when somebody's deployed, like in your father's time, um, were there support services involved with the Army to help out, to help out the parents that were staying and raising children? Or were they more informal in nature? Jackson: They were very, very, very informal. Not, and I, quite frankly, I can't-- I can't say I have memories of during my father and mother's time that they had the support services which are ingrained in the services now. And even when I came in, to be honest, in [19]75, the military's attitude, the Marine Corps' attitude was probably, well if the, if the Marine Corps wanted you to have a, wanted you to have a spouse they’d have put her in your, in your sea bag when they issued you the gear. Was that in there? Okay. <laughs> And that was probably the attitude. It wasn't until the eighties that the Navy and the Marine Corps, and I'm not quite sure when the Army, but I'm sure about the same time with them, we started putting together really substantial programs. And first it, it revolved around volunteers and-- but organized in what they call the Key Volunteer Program. And in the Navy it was the Ombudsman Program. And, and, and that, and that was in the eighties. And in, in the, in the, um, 2000s, as we were getting more involved in the Middle East, they actually started hiring family counselors, Members that take, they literally took the place, for each battalion, they would have professional kind of family counselors. And so, and they still had the Key Volunteers, but then they paid people and they had, uh, it was presumed prior to that, that the wives, an officer's wife, the senior officer's wife, would take the lead whether she was-- wanted to or not. It was, it was presumed that that would happen or the senior enlisted wife would team up with her and they would take care of all the younger ones and all that. And there were just some women who were not, you know, not that social or did not want to do that, or were-- wasn't in their personality. So there was a lot. When I was a young commanding officer, a company, I knew if I was over in the Far East in Japan or something and with my whole company and Corporal Ramos' wife was about ready to have a baby here at Camp Pendleton I'd call my wife, buy some flowers for Corporal Ramos' wife, put his name on 'em and take 'em over to the base hospital and make sure she knows that he's thinking about her. And my wife was willing to do that, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so, and I would willingly <laughs> pay for it out of my pocket too. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 18 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: Uh, but it, it, it's, it is now much more formal and it's expected and it's expected in the military, and now you have a lot of, we probably have more daycare centers per capita than the, than regular society, you know? There's, I forget, there's a half a dozen or more daycare centers on Camp Pendleton. Miramar has theirs all the bases and have the childcare centers. And so I think that there's much more, the military has taken a, uh, realize happy wife, happy spouse. You're more likely to have a career, [inaudible] soldier, sailor, marine. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You're taking care of the family too. Visintainer: It makes sense in terms of retention and morale and all of that, yeah. Jackson: All of that. You know, one of the things I found is it translates in many ways to combat power. You know that no matter what happens to you, that your family's gonna be taken care of and you're gonna be taken care of. And so that's, that gives you strength, that gives every marine, every soldier, every sailor, that kind of strength. You know that I saw in other foreign armies that you got wounded and you're not killed you, you [shakes head]. So their soldiers weren't as aggressive. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Uh, they didn't have the same initiative to, you know, and it is not because they were less, you know, a man or less brave. It's just that they had that, well, there's no VA [Veteran's Administration], there's no, there's no widow's pension. There's no, you know. And so he's gotta be a little bit more careful, you know? So-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It does equate the combat power. Visintainer: I's a, it's a rock in your pack perhaps. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 19 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Yeah. In terms of success for the mission that you're about ready to accomplish. Visintainer: Yeah. Okay. Um, <Visintainer coughs> excuse me, you mentioned the Key Volunteer Program and so I, so I understand like the, you know, the purpose of a counselor or the purpose of a daycare-Jackson: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: But I was curious as to what the Key Volunteer Program, like what their purpose was, what types of activities they undertook, and as a support-Jackson: I, I think the main focus was to make sure if the families had a need, that it was taken care of while the service member was overseas. And a lot of times the wives would organize parties and picnics for the kids and, uh, things like that. Or they would exchange phone numbers so that you knew who to call in case of, you know, <laughs>, there's a rattlesnake in the garage the day after your husband left, you know, the car broke down <laughs> the day after your husband left. Um, uh, so, but the whole idea of the Key Volunteer Program was to make sure that the families knew where to go when they needed support, when the spouse was deployed overseas. Uh, and, uh, and they were literally volunteer in the most part. In the early days, you didn't get guys, it was mostly the wives, but now we have more you know, the, the... The military member may be the, the, the, the, the woman and the man is now the spouse that needs help when-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you. And so that was the whole point of the, um, the Key Volunteer Program: to bring them together, they knew there was a tight-knit family that would help take care of-- It was kind of like, uh, East Battalion had its own village, you know? And the village was designed to take care of, of all of the people that were left behind. Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So yeah, Visintainer: That's, that's pretty interesting. I'd never, never heard of this, uh, program before. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 20 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Yeah. It's a, it's a really good program. They professionalized the lead person at the battalion in about two thousand and three. A battalion's about a thousand Marines. Like on Camp Pendleton you have battalions and squadrons. Squadrons is the aviation equivalent of a battalion. And they would all have a senior lady, and they put, they actually had paid people do that. I think they're maybe toning that down a little bit with no war, but they still have the program. Uh, um, and, uh, yeah. Visintainer: <Visintainer coughs> Excuse me. Um, let's talk about how you decided to enlist. So I understand you were, you were graduated with a master's [degree] at this point. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: You were working and-Jackson: Well, let's see. I got married. Sue and I got married. We met at San Jose State [University]. Um, I had always aspired to be an officer. I thought I'd join the Army when I-- I was in ROTC just for a short while, at San Jose State in Army ROTC. And, it didn't sit well with all the other things that I was doing. But I still aspired to be an officer. Okay. I met my wife in an anatomy and physiology class in Spring of 1969. And, um, and it was a night class, so I would just walk her back to her sorority and I'd go down the street to my dorm. It was just a matter of safety and coming out of class after nine o'clock in an urban environment. And, and that was it. We didn't date or anything. I would just escort her. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, football player escorting pretty sorority girl home. And she's only two blocks from, or three blocks from where I was staying in the dorm. But the next fall, we were on campus and I met her on campus, just kind of bumped into each other again, not thinking much of that previous spring. And she said she had moved outta the sorority house, "come on over." So, <Jackson makes "I don't know" expression> mm-- you know, I was a little reluctant, you know, uh, blonde blue-eyed. And those days I wasn't dating blonde, blue-eyed <laughs> gals. So I recruited a couple more football players, Black, to come over and visit her and her friends, just so it would be-- And uh, son of a gun if the three football players and her three roommates all left and went to a party! <laughter> So there we were, you know, and, uh, we studied together and then we got to start getting together on Thursday nights just to study. My grades shot up <raises hand, laughs>, which was really good. And she was a home ec[onomics] major, and so she'd experiment with foods with me and being a football player, I could take all the calories she could pump out, you know. So I'd get an extra meal every day, <laughs> kind of, every Thursday, when we'd get together. And then finally by the end of that semester, or close to it, I said, "Are we an item?" You know? And we decided that we were an item. So 1970 rolls around, and we, we Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 21 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 decide to get permission from her side of the family. My side of the family reluctantly accepted the interracial dating, my dad being a Texan, that, that, you know, he had bad memories of that stuff. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And, uh, my mother was, she loved everybody no matter what. But her [Sue's] parents weren't real happy. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So the explosion went off and which actually drove us tighter together. We just wanted to date openly. Um, I often say that we had gone to see the movie, Guess Who's Coming To Dinner with Sidney Poitier... And, uh <laughs>. And when her parents found out about it, and I suddenly realized I was not Sidney Poitier. It wasn't gonna work out. But that sort of drove us together. And within, uh, four or five months, I just asked her to marry me. And, uh, because her family disowned her for the very fact that we'd gotten-- we were wanting to date. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they didn't want her to date. And I had never told her I loved her. Visintainer: Yeah. Wow. Jackson: We just wanted to date openly. And so... We uh, as the, as the, her world crowded in on her to try to break us up, it forced us together and me to be more defensive of her. And her-- she stood her ground. And uh, I once told my mother, "Well I don't know what love is, but I know what sacrifice is, and she has opted to date me," as opposed to a family that-- I mean, she's 21 years-old, you don't just give up your family. Her family gave up her, you know, and so, and that was just her mother and father by the way, not cousins or grandparents. Um, uh, and so. Uh, we got married. I asked her at Thanksgiving in 1970, "Hon, will you marry me?" You know, and she said, "When?" <laughs> I had no idea when <laughs>. I said, "semester break!" <laughs>. Jackson: It was my senior year. She was in grad school. And, uh, so I didn't have a job, but I'd just played my last football game the previous Saturday. And so the scholarship was gonna run out at the end of, uh, at graduation. So I was on time, Four years you know, because four years scholarship, you know, and, uh, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 22 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 so, uh... I s--, but I didn't have any rings or anything. So I go, um, but there was one alum, and this is another reason why I will have to reach back. There was one alum, Paul Barracker, little Jewish guy. He owned, I thought he only owned one jewelry store. He ended up owning four. But this little guy. And I told her [Sue], I asked her on Thanksgiving to marry me. And I said -- when we get back, we were visiting her sister in Sacramento -- "When we get back to San Jose, we'll go to Paul's Jewelers, downtown San Jose, and we'll get rings." Now, I didn't have a nickel. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: <laughs>. That's the ironic self-confident naive, uh, kid I was, I guess. And so Monday rolls around and we go down to Paul's, which is just, you could walk off campus, to Paul's-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And Paul's in the store. It's one of these stores that, you know, straight in downtown, it's jewelry on this side, jewelry on that side, just walk back to the counter. Very narrow store. Paul's in the back and he sees me come and I, you know, he was an alum who would come to football practice, sometimes fly to the games on the same plane as the team. So that's how I knew him. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: As this alum who supported football, not as a friend. I mean, he was old enough to be obviously my dad or, or, or maybe even older than that. And Paul comes running out, I mean, little bitty arms. I could wrap my hand around his bicep, close my fingers. Right. And he's in a football stance. "Tony so good to see you!" "Paul, hold it!" He's really enthusiastic. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Old European kind of an accent. And, uh, he-- I said, "Paul, hold it. I want you to meet my fiancé, Sue." And he said, "Oh, so pleased to meet you, Sue!" Does this double handshake. I'll never forget this. And then he goes, I said, "Well, what are you doing?" I said, "Paul, I came to buy, uh, our wedding rings and engagement ring." He says, “Oh, good! Good, good, good!" I said, "But Paul, I don't have any money, so if you hire me, I'll start to work." He says, "Okay! Okay, okay. You stop bothering me. Go back, talk to my secretary, fill out the application. You can come to work. Sue, you can buy anything in the store." <laughs>. So I got, I got a job selling jewelry through <Visintainer laughs>, through grad school, paid for those rings. I come to find out just a few years ago that Sue gave him a $25 down payment or something, but she just told me that. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 23 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But I worked for Paul. He taught me all about sapphires and all the diamonds and his jeweler, the guy who made some of the jewelry, he would teach me. He was from France. And he would, we had, I'd give him some English lessons, and now he liked my accent because it was flat. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, it didn't come with a New York or a twang or anything like that, accent. And so we exchanged a little bit of, he would teach me about clarity and diamonds, and I would clarify some words he didn't understand. Okay. But I did that for about a year and a half. And I also, uh, coached at a junior college -football -- and realized that I didn't want to be a football coach. But I had finished my master's degree, started my PhD at UC [University of California] Santa Cruz in history. And just, and I was teaching a class -- History of Third World Peoples -- as a grad student. And I just said, "Stop." <laughs>, "I gotta, I gotta get on with life." Sue was a high school teacher. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I actually went to work for an insurance company. So time is marching on. In the back of my mind, I still want to be a military officer. I still, war is going on in Vietnam, and I'm sitting here now, I'm in the insurance business. I'm making a lot of money. We bought a house in what became Silicon Valley. I can't even afford that house now. But bought a house. She got tenured. I was making a lot of money in the insurance business. My boss was really glad that I decided, you know, again, I was offered several jobs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, when I finally decided to work, he tried to recruit me right outta college. And my, before I-Right when Sue and I got married, he tried to get me to go to work for him at his insurance company, and I'd turned it down, but now here I was a year or two later and I was working for him and he was really good. It was like having somebody, being in a master's degree class, the Michael Anderson Agency with Penn Mutual Life. And this guy, Mike Anderson, was just a terrific teacher and mentor. And, and so I got off to fast start under his wing in insurance, and I was the consummate kind of, you know, I'd just been the captain of the football team, and all that [inaudible]. I'd been in San Jose for five years and all that stuff. So I knew a lot of people. And so I could contact them. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 24 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: But one day I was with a bunch of clients in, uh, in, uh, Candlestick Park, the old Giants, San Francisco Giants watching the Giants and Dodgers play in May of 1975. And across the screen, the-- from days on end, you saw pictures in the news of Marines and soldiers evacuating people from Saigon [now Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam] and helicopter, dramatic, people holding onto the rails of helicopters trying to get out as the North Vietnamese took over the country. And the same thing was happening in Camb-Cambodia, and Phnom Penh. And so, uh, I... And an American ship, the U.S.S Mayaguez had been captured by the Khmer Rouge, a communist group, and we didn't know where the sailors were from that ship. And across the screen at the ballgame <Jackson holds hands in front of self and widens them>, kind of the old ticker tape kind of thing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: "US Marines, recapture the Mayaguez." Said the thing. And I'm sitting here with hotdogs and beer and entertaining clients at a game. So the next day I put on my suit and I went to a recruiter. Didn't tell my wife. He goes, "Hey, you go to college?" And I said, yeah. And he said, "Well, you need to go see the officer selection offer in Alameda." So I took all my tests, signed up all in one day, came home and told her <laughs>. I remember the guy, he goes, "Do, you wanna, you want me to come home? I got a great movie we can show your wife. About what you're about ready to experience." I said, "You don't want me in my house tonight," <laughter>, "When I tell her what I just did." So I became private Anthony Jackson for a while before I went off OCS [Officer Candidate School]. But I was twenty-six, I was running out of time, and these guys were serving overseas, risking their lives. And here I had done nothing to really validate what I thought. And my idealistic view was to validate my citizenship and ensure that you could never deny me. As my father did, as my little brother did. So-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I still promised my wife it would only be for three years. Said, "Three honey. That's it." I actually got out and went into the reserves for about a year in keeping that three-year promise, which really, I was kind of sliding. I didn't realize I was gonna, eh long-- I found that the Marine Corps was my calling. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And even I got out, went to work, another high-paying job. Got, they gave me a brand new car with Kaiser Aluminum & Chemical, and sent me to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. But I just couldn't believe I'd be working. Uh, and I, so I joined a reserves unit to stay in touch, and then I realized that I started living for that reserve weekend. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 25 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And not what I was doing with Kaiser and, uh, and money wasn't important to me. And so I asked the Marine Corps to take me back, and the rest is kind of history at [inaudible] point. Visintainer: Had you ever expressed to Sue before you, uh, before you enlisted, that you had this idea? Jackson: Yeah, she knew that. She knew that that was kind of in my bones, but I really wanted-- I, in the first couple years with that flare-up in her family over our marriage, I wanted to make sure we had a solid marriage. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Before I all of the sudden ran off and left her, you know. I really did. I think that was why I delayed for so long, uh, was, you know, that was a pretty big sacrifice on her part. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And it was never healed back up. I never, I had never met my-- I met my mother-in-law, but I never did meet my father-in-law. Although we did have a civil conversation on the phone one time. But that was the only time I even talked to him. And that was in like 1978. So, um, and then he passed away. As if-- it was ironic because he and I should have been really good friends. We're, you know, he's a naval officer. He was a World War II destroyer escort. And he had, he'd graduated from UC Berkeley, their ROTC program. He was down here in San Diego when Pearl Harbor was attacked, on his reserve duty and mobilized right away. And they sailed into Pearl Harbor just the week after. You know, he was still smoldering. Things were still, they were still trying to find guys that were in capsized ships that were still alive. And, um, and he kept a diary. And, a part of that time, he had great distinguished service during World War II, became the CO [Commanding Officer] of a ship. He was a junior ensign when Pearl Harbor happened, but he had his own ship by the time the war ended. And, uh, and then he retired as a Navy-captain in the Navy, in the reserves, started his own business in, uh, he became a plumbing contractor, not a-- the guy that supplies all the contractors with all their gear. And during the boom years of growth in the Bay Area and made millions. And of course my wife probably didn't know how many millions he made, but she was disinherited. And that was, that was, uh, <laughs> her sister got it all when he passed away. And that's probably how we found out. But, um, and so, yeah. She's, she's tough <laughs>. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 26 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: You know, and, and held her ground and, uh, and it has been a source of strength and you don't really recognize all those things. She is motivating. She won't take credit, but she has been a prime motivating factor in my life. Um, uh, I mean she has her own, she has her own opinions, her own thoughts, et cetera. But, you know, you want to, you want to do well for those who believe in you kind of a deal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So you know, I've always wanted, I mean, I've taken great risk at times without thinking about that, but I think one of the things that's always in the back of my mind is that, you know, I do owe this woman something <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so don't screw it up, buddy. <laughter> But that means certainly you have to be a person of strength, especially if you're in an organization like the Marine Corps. You know, you're not a yes person. I mean, you can't be a yes person. I mean, you, you, you, you have to gauge when you should engage and you have to engage when you should just, maybe just shut up, but be willing to take on the right fights, you know? And sometimes you win 'em, sometimes you lose 'em, but don't back down until it's time to back down and then have the judgment to know when it's time to back down, you know. So it's kind of a give and take thing, because sometimes you're the boss and sometimes you're the junior guy that has to execute the plan. Visintainer: And having that judgment, I think is really difficult when you're, uh, so invested in something. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I imagine if you're in the Marine Corps and you're in a situation where you need to have that judgment, you're very invested in it. Jackson: Yeah. And, uh, and I've been on those sides of that, you know. I've lost an argument and then had to be the presenter, you know? Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 27 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, you're the guy that, uh, "Wait a minute! I was the only one in the room that objected." "Yeah. But you're, you're the communicator." <laughs> "You're gonna communicate it up the chain, right?" "Wait a minute, I'm-- there were twelve guys that agreed with you, sir." "Yeah, Tony, but you were the most articulate, you're presenting it! <laughs> Just make sure you win!" <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "When you present it up the chain, you know?" So I've been on that side of the coin. And, you know, you-- And the other thing is, I did appreciate the Marine Corps. That the Marine Corps appreciates strength and not weakness, not, you know, it appreciates the fact that you will pick the right time and place. You know, you don't want to embarrass the boss, but will you challenge him? And so you have to have that combination of moral courage and judgment and communication skills to win over when it's not <laughs>, it may not be a smooth subject. Okay? I think that is both been an asset and may have cost me a little bit of something at some point, but not nothing that-- I mean, my career exceeded my expectations. I'm not a Naval Academy guy. I'm not an ROTC guy. I didn't come out as a 21 year-old. I came in as second oldest guy in my OCS platoon. There was one other army guy that was a former soldier that was older than me, but I was, I was already as a-- the same age as my first bosses, my first commanding officers when I was a second lieutenant. And so I was always kind of -- agewise -- I think that was an edge, actually, that lightened my load because I had a sense of humor and I wasn't afraid of the process. <laughs> I wasn't afraid of the process. Yeah. Because you had to. Yeah. When you go to OCS or recruit training, like down here in San Diego, you just have to drop who you are. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: For that twelve weeks. You gotta just drop who you are and accept that you're gonna be a mold. You get to be who you are once you get out of that process, you know, of them breaking you down and building you back up. So I think my age was actually a benefit. Because of my body was still, uh, easily willed into Marine Corps shape. So, yeah. And having a dad who was a sergeant in the army probably helped me a lot too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I already knew how to make a military bed, <laughs> you know, to inspection standards. <laughs> We did that before we went to Sunday school. We got inspected. You know, it's really funny about not remembering this as a kid. You're standing in front of your bunk just like I did at OCS, and your dad's inspecting the shine on your shoes and the crease in your trousers and stuff like that, you know, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 28 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 <laughter>. And here you are, you're ten, you're ten years old, and dad's throwing a quarter on the bed to see if it bounces. The bed's that tight. The bed has to be tight enough of that coin to bounce up, you know? So Yeah. We got those inspections on Sundays. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Boys lined up <laughs>. Uh, yeah. But, uh, yeah. So, yeah. So it's been what? Sue and I have been married, yeah, we just celebrated our 52nd [wedding anniversary], you know-Visintainer: Congratulations. Jackson: Whew. Yeah. That's, uh, it's been, it's been a road. It's been a good road. 'Cause we, you know, we, we, we have a lot of things. I tell her that the reason why we're a successful marriage is because we have absolutely nothing in common. <laughs> You know? I'm a hunter and she's a doggone near herbivore. You know, not quite, but <laughs>, you know, uh, yeah. And we, we, we have a lot of, a lot of differences, which make it kind of good because she has her leans, and I have my leans, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. It gives you space to be your own person and you can come together around commonalities. Jackson: Right, right. And so, and then we'll come together for like a trip to the Sierras [Sierra Nevada mountain range]. Well I'll do fishing, and she'll do her native plant art, her botanical art. She likes to do that. And, uh, and so it's really kind of interesting. They'll come back at the end of the day, she'll show me her drawings and I'll show her my one little fish. <laughter> So, yeah. But, uh, Visintainer: Excuse me. So, um, so you've had a really long and distinguished career and I don't think we have time to go through it in like, phase, you know, and, and every phase of it. So I'd like to skip forward just a bit towards the end of your military career. Jackson: Okay. Visintainer: And talking about the work that you did, as I understand it, as the commander of, marine camps, Marine Corps, Installations West. Jackson: Right. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 29 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Um, and so this is a, this is a big deal, right? Jackson: This is the culmination of, uh, um, all of my general officer assignments were big deals, I thought. I mean, they were shocking the amount of responsibility a nation was willing to give a person and this special trust and confidence that you build up over, you know, twenty-eight, twenty-nine years and they finally make you a general. Um, so, uh, if you don't mind, I'll talk about the first assignment. I was, uh-here, I was selected for my first star as Brigadier General. And I was given the assignment to be the Deputy Commanding General for Marine [Corps] Forces Central Command. MARCENT in shorthand. So, which meant that I was gonna be the deputy for first General [Wallace "Chip"] Gregson, then General [John F.] Sattler, and then general, I had three generals who became my bosses, general [James N.] Mattis. Um, so in that capacity, my headquarters, I had two headquarters, one in Tampa, Florida, where Central Command is, and one in, Bahrain, which is on the Arabian Gulf near Saudi Arabia. And, my main job was to ensure that commanders and marines in contact on the battlefield had what they need. You're, you're the link for, the commander needs this, and industry makes it, and your headquarters. You were the judge on whether: did they really need it? And if they really needed it -- which I always agreed with the commander on the battlefield, because he knew his needs -- does the industry have it? And if headquarters is fighting it, tell them to get it, we're buying it. And I had that budget too, and so I would visit the battlefields and visit the commanders, uh, both Afghanistan and Iraq during that two year assignment. And they, and, and the-- so being in and out of the battlefield, it was different than being deployed. I had been deployed to Iraq as a colonel, but as a general, I was in and out. And I would also do diplomatic stuff in Egypt for the United States military. In Egypt, in Pakistan, and Bahrain and Oman. And I would go around and visit the military commanders and my peers. And, um, but the most critical thing I did was teaming up with a scientist named Susie Alderson, who is from right here in Fallbrook. And we, the battlefield, the commanders were wanting a vehicle that was more durable and could sustain the improvised explosive device explosions [IEDs]. And we just did not have that. Uh, we had the vehicle that our, our, our explosive ordinance disposal teams, they had a vehicle called a mine resistant, ambush protected vehicle, an MRAP. And if they got hit by a mine, it, because these guys went out into mine fields all the time and diffused them, or blew 'em up or whatever. They had this one special vehicle that the South Africans had developed that MRAP, but the [US armed] services weren't, they were sold on the Humvee for some reason. We were taking horrific casualties from these improvised explosion devices. Taking off arms, legs, killing people. And so when I was in Afghanistan, I had a United, I visited this United Nations mine clearing team, and they invited me to ride in one of these South African-built MRAPs as they were gonna clear mines. And here this general, my aide was a young captain. He did not want to get in that vehicle, but they had kind of like, "come on for the ride," okay sort of challenge you. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm in a helmet, flack jacket. I've even got ballistic protection where it really counts <laughs>, you know, and, uh, so, and these guys were dressed much like you. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 30 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: And so I took-- accepted their ride, and we hit probably seven mines, more? Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: But they were all -- fortunately -- anti-personnel mines. And so we got rattled and we could hear the shrapnel hitting the sides of the vehicle, but we were okay. But-Visintainer: What did that feel like when you hit a mine that first time? Jackson: Well, this vehicle was pretty solid, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I mean, what it, what it just, it kind of set off alarms and gives you a little adrenaline rush. And it was kind of like if you'd had, you ever had a rock hit the windshield in front of your car? The way it smacks that hard. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Yeah. It's like a bunch of those at once. <laughs> Except they're hitting metal, so you-- And I could see our chase! They gave us a chase vehicle just in case we got stranded out there, you know, vehicle breakdown. And I could see he was hitting them too. So it wasn't doing any, anybody, any good. The Soviets had laid a lot of mines and they were just, they were just horrible in Afghanistan, 'cause they put 'em in these farmers' fields so they wouldn't grow, couldn't grow crops. And that's what the UN was doing there, clearing them as we were fighting Taliban or whoever else. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I came home. I had this passion to get this vehicle, and I had, but I wasn't gonna be able to do it. Generals, the Army had refused, the Marine Corps had refused to get this vehicle. There was a whole, I didn't realize this fight was going on. I just knew my experience. And I had seen them before. General Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 31 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Gregson had showed me one. And here comes Susie Alderson. She had been in Iraq for a number of months, and she on her own initiative, she was a scientist assigned to me. And so she had been over there. Um, mine was a new command, so they had just set up MARCENT to handle the Middle East. And so I was the first permanent. So here I had this scientist assigned to me, and I hadn't tasked her with anything mm-hmm. But she had been over there and she did a study on survivability in various vehicles. So she had all the data laid out, if you're in this kind of, um Humvee you're gonna get killed. If you're in this kind, ehhh, there's a 80% chance you're gonna get killed. You're gonna get your legs blown off. If you're in this truck, this-- but if you're in this MRAP that the improvised explosive of the [inaudible] explosive warning disposal teams, you're most likely only gonna feel concussion. Not a death. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So I said, "Susie, great! That fits my passion." I called my staff together, put Susie and them together. Said, "You got ten PowerPoint slides, and we're gonna present this to the three-star [general]. So you [inaudible] no more than ten, they w-- general officers will fall asleep if you got more than ten PowerPoint slides. Do not do that." So I left the room and left her to my staff to power-- come up. They came in a couple hours later, "Sir, this is the brief." And I said, "Perfect." I didn't make a change to it. Susie and my chief of staff put this, it was beautiful. I called up on a secure VTC [video teleconference] because my boss was out here at Camp Pendleton, and here I was in Tampa. Got him on a little secure video of the day and told Susie, "Susie, you're the briefer. The generals have never won this argument, but you got the right voice." And, so she briefed it and they, General Sattler stopped it, or slide number seven. Next thing you know, we called up the commandant, okay, he got it in three slides. And I started buying these vehicles. I mean <laughs>, and I won't bore you with the technical part of it, but Susie's data got those vehicles in within six or seven months. I mean, I sent her around to all the big vehicle manufacturers in the US said, it's gotta have this transmission, it's gotta have this drivetrain, it's gotta have this engine. And these are the three different prototypes that you can build. You know, the John Deeres of the world that build heavy equipment, they changed assembly lines. They were happy to pitch in. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, the first 300 [IED] hits in 2006, no Marine Corps deaths. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So Susie becomes the mother of the MRAP and gets the highest decoration that a civilian can get in peace time in the, in the Department of Navy. So that was a big deal. And then as a two, that was as a one-star, that was one of the best effects as a one. As a two-star. I get assigned as the, uh, we have these four star commands, combatant commands is what they're called. One for the Pacific, one for Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 32 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Europe, one for South America, um, Pacific, European Command, Southern Command... And, we're gonna develop another one. And it's US Africa Command. And I'm chosen to be the first Director of Military Operations and Logistics, the J3 and the J4 for that command, headquartered outta Stuttgart, Germany and our focus would be the continent of Africa and all the associated islands. Minus Egypt. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We kept Egypt in Central command. And, uh, so, uh, <holds arms wide> it's brand new! There's nothing there. I mean, we're in rehabbed Army World War II buildings that belonged to the Wehrmacht in 1930. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Its [inaudible] journey. And so we gotta build this new command. And there were two two-stars there that were, we had a four-star boss, uh, General Walls [William E. Ward] and uh, and the Air Force, his [Wards's] chief of staff was an Air Force two-star. But I was the Director of Military Operations, which, you know, is-- I mean, you're just, you're thinking about it for every military event that goes on in the, in the continent of Africa that the US is involved in, you're gonna be the director and the advisor to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the president, the National Security Council, and the President of the United States. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You're gonna be the direct guy. And my boss was the kind of guy that, uh, general Ward, when I said Walls-- General Ward was the kind of guy, he liked to do all the diplomatic high stuff, flying around, meeting with heads of state and senior military. And he left the operational kind of running of things to me. Which I liked, but it kind of was, uh, it was interesting. Sometimes I would just wonder, okay, if we do this one, so probably the most prominent one would be in, um the, the pirates off the coast of Africa, off of Somalia. And, uh, and we had, and they generally speaking stayed away from US ships. But they would take these ships. These guys were once fishermen whose fishing industry... I mean the guys who actually were the pirates, not the businessmen in London and Somalia, the kingpins in Somalia, the warlords, but the ones who executed, the actual pirates, you know, they would get word from London who's flagship, what cargo was on it, what the crew was, all that would come out of London. And they'd filter it into Somalia. Visintainer: So there's somebody in London doing research to let them know what's headed their way? Wow. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 33 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. And so, and they know what insurance company and all this, and these guys had been fishermen, but the industrial fishing of China or Korea or Japan had just about depleted their waters. So they could not-- and so you had an understanding from an intelligence standpoint of why there was this piracy, these guys who could execute it. And they were just the lower end of the whole international cabal. ButVisintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, um, but when they captured the Maersk Alabama, uh, which was a U.S. Flagship. <shakes head> No way. 'Cause we weren't gonna negotiate with those guys. So-Visintainer: When was this? Jackson: This was 2008. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: They captured the Maersk Alabama, probably the spring. With a U.S. crew on it. And, uh, so, um... let me think. Yeah, I think that was under President Bush. Let me think for a second. 2009? Yeah, it was 2009. I think that was, I think it was actually one of the first decisions that I had to get out of President Obama. So that had to be 2009. And so it was very early in his term. So it was either late winter or early spring of 2009. And there was one guy, uh, the crew overpowered most of the pirates themselves. Without a gun fight. But, a shot was fired. One of the pirates was injured. And, uh, three of 'em captured the captain, of the ship, Captain [Richard] Phillips, and lowered a life boat and got off the ship. They made a movie outta this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, um, and, uh... So now we had, they had a hostage. We had the ship back, but they had an American hostage. And so myself, um, Admiral [William H.] McRaven was the head of our Joint Special Operations Command out of Fort Bragg [now Fort Liberty] here. So he had the Navy Seals and all the special ops guys. But they're, it was Africa's, AFRICOM's territory. My boss's out galivanting. So McRaven and I, we had the [Navy] Seals put on standby and they started rehearsing. And we had -- it's amazing -- we do several rehearsals on paper and drills. We had done a rehearsal of this on paper the year before. And so we kind of knew what the plan would be, you know? We didn't know how it [would] end, the very end of it, but we knew how we would get the right forces to the point that they could execute a mission. And then once they were at that point, it was up to them exactly how, but getting them from the States to-- Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 34 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 so McRaven and I reviewed the plan, called up the, the Joint Chiefs, the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman [of the Joint Chiefs of Staff], and briefed the plan. And we both agreed that we had a good plan to get the Navy Seals to be able to get the, the captain back. And we got pretty fast approval from the president. I think that's what we were all surprised 'cause he's a young senator we were all grizzly old admirals and generals older than the president, you know? And so we didn't have a lot of confidence 'cause these things are time sensitive, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, we, you know. You know it ended sadly in one way, because we killed all three of the pirates. Killed three of 'em. The one guy that survived was wounded when the crew took over. And so he, he was medevacked to one of our ships prior to... And we, Captain Phillips, we brought him home and it was it. So that was one, um, of a significant event. But I guess the thing is, is that you're making these life and death decisions. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That, you know, I would often tell myself that, "Hey, you have to look yourself in the mirror. And then when you get to the pearly gates, he's the only one that can pass judgment on your, on your judgment." You know, because there's been a couple of circumstances where, you know, you've directly impacted whether or not people have lost their lives or you've taken life. And so, uh, it's-- it's just one of those things and there's certain people that have to make those hardcore decisions and to think that you're in that position. And so after two years of doing that, which was a real from the bottom up, creating a command and all of the, I mean, <laughs> bringing tech, I mean we're, we're talking about copper wires that were put in by the Germans in the 1930s under Hitler that we're pulling out and pulling fiber optic cable on. So we're literally building buildings and running this command and making those kinds of decisions and other decisions which have national significance, you know. And then I was the first ordered to, or to go to Baghdad [Iraq] to be the chief of staff for our forces in Iraq for General [Raymond T.] Ordierno. And, but my boss, General Ward, he'd have had to let me go early, but he had, he had become so, uh, reliant on me -- and it was a new command -- and the Marine Corps promised him a full two years that he would have me, because they had to convince him to take a Marine. He's an Army four-star, and they had to convince him to put a Marine in that very position. And he, and he took me, you know, he probably had some young Army two-star that he would've liked to put in there, but he took me in on his command. And so when the Marine Corps said, "Hey, if you leave six months early, you can go back to war." And which from a, from a Marines standpoint, it would've been best for me to go back to Baghdad. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 35 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And be the chief of staff for General Ordierno, that would open up more opportunities as a flag officer, more senior rolls. But to get stationed at Camp Pendleton, my wife's a Californian. It was the alternative. So when General Ward objected to me leaving six months early, it became, uh, the fallback was the Marine Corps assigned me to be the Commanding General for Marine Corps Installations, West. MCI West, which included seven Marine Corps bases out west, to be the senior guy and be stationed in my wife's hometown in a place where we had owned homes in the past. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Great place for my kids to go to school. And, and so, and my kids had already, I had in 2004... In 2002, my oldest son graduated from Fallbrook High. He got, we came here in [19]98 and he-- my wife said, "I don't know where you're gonna be for the next four years, but we're going to be here as the kids go to one school." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so Brian was on his 10th or 11th school then going into the ninth grade. And so I deployed to Japan in 2002 as a colonel. And then my other son, Blaine was gonna graduate in 2004. And so I went overseas and the family stayed on base at Camp Pendleton. And then I came back and from the Far East, 'cause I didn't do the initial march to Baghdad. And I joined the unit at Camp Pendleton and we're ordered back to Iraq. And the theme went on, "I don't know where you're gonna be, but we're gonna be here." So Blaine graduated in 2004 from Fallbrook High. He got all his four years at one school. And so they were already locked in. And the wife, when I went over to Japan, I left her to, uh... She was, had chosen some land five acres in Fallbrook in 2000. Yeah. 2000. She chose five acres of this <holds hands out, palms up>. "There's nothing here, honey." She says, "Well, I'm designing a house with an architect." I said, "Great! <Visintainer laughs>. Then I got ordered overseas <laughs> and left her to build a house. And so I departed. I came home to help her move in to a house from the base to this house that she designed with an architect. And she interviewed five or six general contractors and hired one and stayed on the work site. I was in, doing things for the nation in Japan, Korea, and Philippines. And I came back home and helped her move in and then came back from a year without family and was here for four or five months. And we got redeployed the whole, all the, most of the combat Marines at Camp Pendleton went back to Iraq in the Al Anbar Province. And I was the Plans Officer, kind of responsible for getting all the beans, band aids, bullets, people over there and married up with their equipment on a timeline, and then be the last man to <laughs> to, to, arrive. And I remember getting there and sitting in the, getting down, getting ready to eat a meal as my host was showing me where I was gonna sleep that night and all that. And we get a bunch of incoming rounds and the whole chow hall emptied out, two of us are sitting there. And I said, "Well, there's no point in running. You might run into one <laughs>, you might run into incoming." So we went ahead and finished our meal while the stuff was coming down. You know, <laughs>, it's random. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 36 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's random. And so, when I got stationed back here, the wife had come to live with me when I, we finally got to live together. That was, there was that time period from 2002 to 2007 that we never really lived together. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Because I was in Tampa. She stayed here with the boys, and then they both started college. And, and I got orders to go overseas to Africa command in Stuttgart. And I said, "Hey, it's your home country. Would you like to come with me?" So she came over there for the year and a half or so. And the boys were going to college and doing what college-aged guys do without parents. Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: To provide any guidance. Jeez. And then, so when I got stationed, uh, the fallback position from not going over again to Baghdad was here. It was beautiful for family. And I knew that that would be my twilight, my last tour in the Marine Corps. So from 2009 to late 2011, I got to be the commanding general for, we have our mountain warfare training center up in Bridgeport, California. We have our Marine Corps... The real main Marine Corps ground combat center out of 29 Palms [California]. Yuma has our air station, Yuma Arizona. Miramar [Marine Corps Air Station, in San Diego], Camp Pendleton, and the Air Station on Camp Pendleton. And Barstow [Marine Corps Logistics Base, Barstow California] was the seventh one. So you're kind of the, you're kind of the governor is the way I equate it. And each one of those is a city, or in case of Camp Pendleton, several cities in a county. And so they're, they have their commanding officer, a colonel. And, so I'm basically the overseer for those to make sure they have the resources to do their job. And fortunately for me, it was the beginning of the Obama era where the Economic Recovery Act was, uh, they were looking for projects and the money was there. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: To fund a lot of things. And so new hospital at Camp Pendleton, well, I got that new chow hall, new barracks, new childcare centers, all that kind of stuff. I was getting billions of dollars during my watch to build that stuff. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 37 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so it was, uh, it was a good time. I've told these young Marines now that, well, it's not gonna be like that for a while. That was during a war. And the funding was there. We had a happy Congress and they weren't squabbling over money for the military, but as soon as the wars die down, money to the military becomes scarce. Um, so, but, uh, so that was a good assignment. I would, I would say that it was, it was a little bit different than my operational time as a general officer, but we had a lot of impact. Visintainer: So this is really interesting. And I think it's, it's kind of interesting how, maybe if I'm, if I'm understanding you correctly, maybe it wouldn't have been your first choice. Jackson: Yeah. It wouldn't have been my first choice as a, yeah-Visintainer: But in some ways it works out really nicely. Jackson: Yeah! Visintainer: To be around family-Jackson: Because I get to be around family. I get to be-- I meet this university again. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, I never, when I, when I left, when I left here in 1986, I mean, there was nothing here. This was a stinky old chicken farm. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Uh, you know, and, uh, when I come back, your [university] president is Karen Haynes, right? Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 38 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Mm-hmm. Jackson: And her husband, gentleman Jim Mickelson is on the staff and doing what he's doing with ACE program, ACE Scholars [Services, a program for foster youth at CSUSM]. And I'm the commanding general over there. And I'm a guy with war credentials and all that kind of stuff. And, uh, and they invite me over here. And, uh, and I'm just shocked that, you know, I'd driven by a couple times on 78 and seen the building there. And, but she [Haynes] invited me to lunch and then her husband drove me around his little golf cart, you know, to campus, and I'm in uniform. And, you know, California's weird. Southern California, this uni-- our uniforms are really welcome. But Northern California is not the same place, you know. Um, and, uh, and I, and so I, she took me over and showed me the nascent Veteran Center that it was then, not what this is now. And it was kind of really a good experience and to meet Karen and see her leadership, which I would compare with any general that I'd ever served with or-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I've served with some of the best this nation has to offer. And, uh, so, so, um... It's kind of interesting that I could not develop the relationship at San Jose State. I tried to, I mean of course distance was an enemy. Yeah. You know, but they kept changing leadership. Even now, I think they're in search of another president. And that's five or six presidents in, in-- I visited the campus when I was on active duty, a one-star. And giving presentations, this one doctor there, Dr. Jonathan Ross, he was really interested. I funded a little books and furniture for their library. He had a military history library set up in the history department. And so, and I was funding a scholarship and I wasn't get-- there was no feedback. There was no feedback. Except for Jonathan. He would try, and he still sends me emails every now and then, but the university was really like... But anyway, I wasn't gonna work when I retired at first, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Okay. I certainly wasn't gonna be a commuter to San Diego and the freeways just like trying to get here today. I said, ah, I forgot there's construction. I should have went this way and that way and, uh, but, um... But, I really hit it off with that, uh, with the leadership that was here, and I retired and I was sitting around, enjoying trying to be a gardener, thinking about my next trip, doing this and that. And I turned down several nice jobs, mainly for my wife because she didn't want me to work, and I was, you know, sixty, about ready to get Social Security, max out Social Security, and then <laughs>, you know, so why work? And Karen called and said, "Hey, how would you like to be on our foundation board?" And I said, okay. Man. Was that? <makes gesture like casting a fishing rod> I mean, she hooked me for, she had me set up. And I thought, hey, yeah. And I was on several boards, and so-- none of 'em paid. And, and I was gonna stay that way. And I'd bought my RV [recreational vehicle]. That was my retirement gift to myself, you know, nice. On that Mercedes chassis, looking good, driving down the freeway, camping out, fishing. And we did enjoy it. We do still have that. So we still enjoy it. And, I got calls from the governor's office. You know the boards were kind of pretty demanding anyway, and California State Parks was in a Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 39 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 horrible position. They had money that they couldn't account for. It was mishandled. It wasn't stolen, thank goodness. Nobody lined their pockets with it, but it was making the headlines and, and, and I couldn't believe that Parks was so screwed up. <Jackson's phone rings>. Visintainer: If you want, I can pause this. Jackson: I'll just stop. No, this is.. It's amazing how these people get your number. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: My kids would text, my wife would text, you know, but these people will uh, are clever <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. So that would've been around 2012 if I-Jackson: Yeah. That was two thousand, yeah, twelve. Yeah. So, uh, and I'm just, I was in-- I was kind of amazed. We have no idea what the civilian sector pays for jobs in the military. As a general officer, you're basically working for nothing. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Because you've, you've maxed out the retirement scale, and because you can retire when you hit 30 years, you get 75% of your base pay. When you, in two and a half years, every year there after, so I was at 36 and a half years, so you'd imagine that I'm 75%, two and a half years times, and so I was already at 95, 97%, something like that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, you're, you are working because you love what you do. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 40 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. I mean, you're, you're, you're totally into what you're doing and it takes care of your family and all that. So I really didn't want to work. There was one job that I might have taken, and that was when the Chancellor for the UC system asked me if I would like to apply to be the President of CSU Maritime Academy. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Up in Vallejo. And that was in the spring, only two months after I had retired from the Marine Corps. And it was just, it would've just been the wrong time. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But our, but I did accept the Rockefeller Family Fund. I got to be known for some of the speeches that I gave, rather, now that I've seen the video, <laughs> rather impassioned speeches about why we go to war, to a group of engineers and scientists, in particular, this one speech. And I was still in uniform and giving that speech, and I told them that, I just asked the audience of hundreds. I said, "Why is it that we're at war in the Middle East?" And you could hear the word oil echo out. You know? And, uh, and, uh, and I told 'em it was their responsibility to take us off of being dependent so we don't have to send our men and women overseas to bleed, you know, and I didn't realize they were videoing the damn thing. And it pops up all over the internet, right. <laughs> So, and my job as MCI West, I mean, this is the military is a multi-billions of dollar industry in California. And as the commanding general of MCI West, you had access to the governor and Governor [Arnold] Schwarzenegger when I first got there, Governor [Jerry] Brown, later, you would meet with them once or twice a year. If there's any issues, like, you know, there's a state park on Camp Pendleton, it's one of the most profitable parks in the state park system. So this, it was good. They got the park for a $1 lease of several miles of beach, you know, and that was gonna come up for negotiation in a couple of years. And Secretary of the Navy wants real money for it now. It's not just a being a kind person anymore. It's, uh, so you have mutual interests and the environmental California Clean Air Act and all this kind of stuff and whether or not we can meet our tanks can meet your emission standards. No. So what's gonna be the offset? Things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So you're up there negotiating and trying to make them aware. And being a Californian, it also gave me a little bit, um, adopted Californian anyway, it gave me a little bit different access because I was one of them sort of. And so when I talked to a senator or to the member of the of the governor's cabinet, it came out, uh, we had positive discussions. So they knew me in Sacramento. And they knew I had a green side. And they knew that we were doing all of our green development on our bases. We were doing a lot. It was funded by the Secretary of the Navy, Secretary [Ray] Mabus and President Obama. And so, we were being really green. And so I was speaking the language of the Commander In Chief and Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 41 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 the Secretary of the Navy, being really green, and as my war experience as well made me have pretty much total buy-in. And my wife's Prius <laughs>. And the fact that she put in, I gave her $30,000 and put in solar at our house. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, you know, all of those things, you know. And so I got a call from the, from the governor's office and the Secretary of Natural Resources, if I would please consider being the director of California State Parks. I said, "Oh, man, that sounds so good. I could do my job in my RV." And my wife, who's just a natural member of, at that time of the Sierra Club and the California Native Plant Society and all that. This, that's actually a job I'll consider. So I told her about it, and she said, "Well, if that's what you want to do." Which is her logical, her normal answer too. And so I took that up, I mean, to get the millions of dollars back in the right place. They had a morale problem. But they're kind of like military people in as much as, uh, a bunch of really dedicated people that don't get paid much for their dedication. They work for the state, the state doesn't realize, matter of fact, I'd say in some of the assignments that the park rangers have, they live more austere than a military family would definitely live. And the state doesn't recognize that, but they're-- If you're a ranger and you've got a series of parks in Carmel, Monterey, and those beach parks and stuff like that, and the state can't pay you enough for housing and stuff, things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And some of the more remote places, it's amazing! Old ranch houses that they'll rehabilitate, you know, and they learn to love what they're doing. You know, they, they, they do it because they love the great outdoors. They love people, they love the animals and all of that stuff. And they hear they, "Hey, I want to give you a pay raise, bring you to Sacramento and put you at my right hand." "Oh, no sir. <Visintainer laughs> I want to be, I want to be right down here where I am. I don't want to be in Sacramento." Uh, and they, they, they, there's a very different, uh, they're, they're much like Marines, but they don't have an up or out sort of ethic or, or, or, or value system. Theirs is, "I'm here. Like, this is my park, these are my parks, and this is where I want to raise my family, even if it's a twenty-five mile bus ride for my kids to go to kindergarten." This is, this is in the, I loved them for that. Great people. And, and I think they were, I don't want to talk too badly of my predecessor, but they needed the kind of leadership that's taught and admired in the Marine Corps. So getting in my, I literally got my RV, we have a state park on-Border Fields State Park right there at the fence. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Separating Tijuana from us. And we have one all the way on the Oregon border. Arizona border. Nevada border. And so I just, my wife and I, and I call the office in, um, and I tell my secretary, Lynn Black, I say, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 42 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 "Lynn, tomorrow I'm gonna be at Humboldt State Park. You can tell him now." Okay. But I didn't want her to tell him, you know, a week in adva-- I didn't want him scrambling. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: You know, I know how it is in the military when you know the general's gonna show up. It might be two weeks of scrubbing brass, you know, you know, if they got two weeks notice, they have two weeks of panic. <Visintainer coughs>. If they, if they have twenty-four hours of notice, they only got twenty-four hours of panic. And you can't fix much that's broken in 24 hours <laughs>. So that was great. I, I did enjoy that. I did not want a new career though. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, I told the governor I've got two or three years, and not only that, I had grown spoiled, as a general officer to make critical decisions, life decisions. And you cannot do that. I mean, you're a political appointee of the governor, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And you gotta be approved by, you know, two-thirds of the state senate. So you had to go through those hearings and all that, so you could not be totally, you could be what the governor wanted. But maybe not the governor's staff. The initiative was a little bit frightening. My initiative I think was a little bit frightening in Sacramento, and I can't stand micromanagers. Visintainer: Yeah. How was it frightening? Jackson: Uh, say your question again? Visintainer: How was it frightening? Jackson: Um, who, my initiative? Because I might do something that, uh, that might be really good for parks, really good for parks' people, but maybe it doesn't suit the governor's budget agenda. It might be too, you know, and so you did not want, and you didn't want to be that guy that-- but you wanted to do the right things, and you had to have people that would kind of support you in, in, in, in, uh, that you were Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 43 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 trying to do the right thing. Now, they could argue, and you might not be able to do it, but I did not feel that-- the military's incredible in terms of the responsibilities that I was given. And it was based on the special trust and confidence that I had built up over, you know, thirty years of service. And that, I mean that is, you're making really important decisions affecting people and maybe tens of thousands of people. And so to come down from that, it was, was, was not ideal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you had to come down from that, uh, you know, uh, your ego. Something had to, had to, had to back off. That you no longer had that much special trust and confi-- You had some trust and confidence. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But you didn't have that ultimate special trust <laughs>, you know, because, you know. And, uh, and so I, I, I, I decided that certainly I didn't wanna spend any more time in that environment than fixing what I could fix. So got the budget money straight, got it all back, started fixing restrooms, started-- I, you know, I took it like it was a military operation: to develop a campaign plan, publish it to everybody. To everybody. Put it on the, on the website so every employee could read it. Visintainer: And at some point-Jackson: I, you know, I set up a, it still goes, they dropped me off the mailing list. My wife is still on the mailing list, but it's an email newsletter goes out every Friday. It's the same thing the Marine Corps does. I still get 'em from the, from the... from the Chief of Naval Operations. And I get a daily report of what's important. And then from the Marine Corps, every Friday I get one. You know, so that when I'm communicating as a member of a community, I'm talking from some firsthand knowledge. Not all of it, I don't, I'm not nothing secret, all open source stuff that we can communicate when we're out in our communities. As a flag officer, you still have certain responsibilities. Visintainer: Sure. Jackson: That, uh, uh, so yeah. So the civilian world's a little bit different, you know, and it was kind of... I think you have to, you have to adapt to it though, it's not gonna adapt to you. And so I, you know, after about two years, I kind of said, okay, and things are relatively stable here, for you. And, I would, I'm gonna step down and I was like I'm, I was just ready not to, and my wife one day, she goes, I was, I was commuting back and forth. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 44 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So I would like fly home on Friday night and maybe Thursday night sometimes, and then I'd fly out Sunday night back to Sacramento or early Monday morning. And, you know, and that-- one day she looks at me and she says, "This is just like you're deployed." <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know <laughter>. So I knew it was about time to put in the hat. Those two things came together, that deployment remark. And I was like, challenged whether or not I did, I wanted to give up the idea of that special trust and confidence that I had grown so used to as a military officer. Visintainer: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Jackson: Mm-hmm. So. Visintainer: I had a couple questions about Camp Pendleton I wanted to ask you. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: One was, I was, I was curious about the base's relationship with the surrounding North County community and how that changed, how you've seen that change over time, if it has, maybe it hasn't? Jackson: Actually. Um, you know when Oceanside [California] was like shootouts at the O.K .Corral, not shootouts, but get drunk, go to a strip club, that kind of thing. In the seventies, it was, it was pretty, pretty harsh. And 'cause the Marine Corps was, it was, it was-- those were tough times for the Marine Corps and the city and the development. You didn't have the growth boom that's occurred over the last forty to fifty years for sure. But, I think it's really good relationship with the, with the uh, with the community. With the colleges, community colleges. I think this is a great relationship that Cal State San Marcos has with the military community in San Diego, writ large. And I think that Camp Pendleton... I think, I think the region knows that like 65% of the Marine Corps' combat power is here <waves hand in circular motion> and you can add on the Yuma Air Station with it, is here, this is the main war-fighting engine, and you got similar but smaller in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina and forward deployed in Okinawa, Japan. But they're smaller and they have different wartime commitments. This is the heavy Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 45 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 punch. And these bases, both the airspace, the sea space and the ground space for training are unmatched in the world. So you have the finest <waves hand in circular motion>, this geographic area, just, just what God put here makes it that way, you know, and you can have every just about climatic condition within MCI West, with the exception of a tropical jungle, you know. From the Sierras and our cold weather arctic training to the desert, to mountains and all this kind of stuff, the beaches. And, I mean, it's incredible training. And that's why Camp Pendleton, you know, was initially, what do they call it when the city comes in and takes your property? They took Camp Pendleton-Visintainer: Eminent domain? Jackson: Eminent domain. That's how it was. You know, here's $4 million, you're out of here. The O'Neill family, and they're the ones that developed San Clemente and all that region up north of San Clemente, you know, big developers, they're still here. The O'Neil family still, part of it's still here. But that eighteen miles of coastline, the number of military and military families associated with it. That, and the Navy, I think this is, we generate billions, like thirty-six billion dollars annually. And then in the state of California, it's over fifty-six billion dollars. So-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Just about one in every eleven or twelve defense dollars comes to California. Visintainer: Wow. <Jackson laughs>, that's significant <Jackson laughs>. Jackson: Yeah. I mean, you considered there's 50 states <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they pay taxes too <laughs>. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, um, I mean, Vista, the mayors, the, and the, and the San Clemente and, and Oceanside and San Marcos, they show up at events. They're invitees. They're on the invitation list to events. <laughs> The old mayor of Oceanside, he used to be quite a character, but he was kind of losing it a little bit, and he's Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 46 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 a really nice guy and he's had some strokes and stuff like that, but he'd still show up, you know? To things. And so I think that both from an economic development standpoint, and I think Camp Pendleton also felt that during my time there, that we were really helping San Diego, San Diego County, and the local communities with our investments that were given through the Economic Recovery Act. We were employing the citizens out there. It's a, you know, it's a kind of a domino effect on money spent from the military community here. So I think there's a really good relationship between the military. And I, and I, and, and I appreciate it because I don't think every community in California, although I'm on the governor's military council, and so I get to visit-- matter of fact, we have a meeting in another week or two. I better look at my calendar up at Vandenberg Air Force Base. But we meet all over the state where there's military communities, and we try to tie the, one of the things we try to do is tie the communities with the military base around them, and a lot of, and the communities have embraced that to the benefit of both. Because if you have a, um, a water problem or a waste management problem on your base, well, that's part of the community's problem too, because you're probably locked into the system. If you're trying to do renewable energies on the base, that's probably the community's issue too. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: If the schools aren't properly funded in the communities around the base, then you're, it's probably the base people are gonna be concerned. The military families are gonna be concerned, and they're not gonna want to go there if the schools aren't good schools. And so, I mean, we did a, around both Camp Pendleton, the Fallbrook Union School, elementary school district, and around Edwards Air Force Base, north of Los Angeles, they were both schools that are impacted by the military but weren't, were slipping in terms of, oh, quality of education, quality of facilities, and getting instructors. And some of these places are hardcore. And so the military worked with them to get matching funding in both of those school districts to, to rebuild schools, to hire teachers and things like that, that affects quality of life for military families as well as, you know, the community writ large. So it behooves the communities to, uh, to be kind of tied in with the bases, and it behooves the bases to be tied in. And so the commanders normally really recognize that and are accepted in the community. I have had one negative experience. It was actually, I was at [employed at] state parks and I was asked to be the commencement speaker at my high school in Oakland. It's kind of nice. I'm a retired general coming, and then I got a phone call from them, saying the principal wanted to make sure that I would not wear my uniform to the [ceremony]. Now I've been retired for, probably couldn't fit in my uniform and he should have thought of that. "Don't wear your uniform," basically. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm going, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, wait a minute." The high school principal's asking a guy who spent thirty-six and a half years in this uniform, that he doesn't want him to wear it. Now, first of all, I wouldn't have thought of wearing my uniform to, uh, you know, if it's a military event... No, I still wouldn't have worn a uniform <laughs>. Get a new tuxedo. I mean, you're in ship, tip-shop shape when you're in there. You know, you're <makes gesture indicating slim>, you know. I think I've grown a little bit rotund since those days, right. <laughs> Gently so <laughter>. But, uh, and so that uniform is fitted to Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 47 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 you, you know? And so I wouldn't have dreamed of it. But he, it was such an insult. I said, unless they withdraw that I'm not gonna speak. And so I didn't speak at my high school. And that was after retirement, and it was a totally unnecessary thing. But that's the difference. I mean, you'll run into that at the, at northern, you know. You know, I remember days going to watch the students riot at Berkeley and all that, but that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That was an attitude out of a principal in Oakland and my old alma mater. So, uh, and that's the only negative that, but I thought that was uh, and I just told him, I said, "Well, I can't come." I said, because it, it's like you're dishonoring-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You want me to deny I am a general. Visintainer: That's a huge part of your, your existence-Jackson: When you, you know, as I remember Commandant General James Conway going, no matter what, gentlemen-- all the generals in the Marine Corps get together once a year, and those who aren't forward deployed anyway, and he says, "I don't want you all worrying about whether you're a one-star, two-star, three-star, whatever. You're all just going to be generals and when they put it on your tombstone, that's what everybody will remember." They don't remember if you're, whatever, general, general, Lieutenant General. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so I thought that was good advice for, you know, and, uh, yeah. But yeah, it's kind of an interesting, well, let me show you one thing here. <laughs> I brought this because my wife told me to bring it, but she's my smartest counselor. <Visintainer laughs>. She does these really cool, she doesn't do like family albums, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 48 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 She tells the family story in this, in these, so you can-Visintainer: Can I [inaudible]? <Visintainer moves camera to show album sitting in Jackson's lap>. Jackson: She does these drawings. Yeah. Yeah. So all the drawings you see in this, she does, there's an old oak tree down by the Santa Margarita River and it's been chopped and it's been burned, and the top's been blown off in high winds, but it's just resilient, you know? So she says, that's kind of the story of your family-Visintainer: Uh-huh. Jackson: Resilience, <laughs> you know, and so, uh... So you'll see these different drawings, and then she'll go through and then she's found, it's kind of hard; we know that on my mother's side, this is my dad's, I mean, you can see how thin [the family tree is], when you're descendants of slaves, you don't necessarily get all the way back on the African descendants' side. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Very far. And this is my dad's little genealogical tree. And then this is my mother's. And what's interesting is from my mother's side, and this is where my dad lied on his draft card and said his parents were deceased <laughs>. And, so that's my dad as a like 16 year-old. I said, he looks like older than that, and this is him at the Korean War, and this is kind of his story. And then when I said he is a boxer, now this is my dad, when I was a senior in high school. Do you think I'd ever mess with my dad <laughter>? Visintainer: No you can definitely he was a, he was a prize fighter. Jackson: But he never lifted weights. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And this is a newspaper article when he was-- about why he chose to stay [inaudible]. He was a rated heavyweight fighter, but he chose to stick with the Army. And in this article there, they asked him why. And he just said it was more secure. But I only saw him in person fight one time. And he knocked the guy out with a, and this is his father and his mother. And yeah, that's my oldest sister and grandmother and Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 49 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 my dad's sister. But there's, now it goes over to my mother's side, and this is my mother as a girl. And this is all seven, there's very few pictures of all seven of my brothers and sisters. And this is like third grade Tony right there with his finger in his mouth. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And this is <laughs>. And this is us in Oakland. This is in Texas. And this is all seven of the kids. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, my dad's funeral, I think that's what <laughs> got us back together. But my family goes back to the original pioneers on my mother's side of, founding, they were with Brigham Young's party. And, um, and this tells the story, and one of the three people were with Brigham Young that were slaves. And my great-great-great grandfather [Green Flake] was a slave to, that was with that original Mormon party. And so he becomes a founder. That's my great-grandmother. There's a couple of pictures in here that are kind of neat. But Green Flake, that's him, was a slave. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That came with the original. This tells the story of the original Mormon party that he was with. And he was, he was a scout. And um, and he-- and um, a road builder. And he drove Brigham Young's wagon. So when Brigham Young ends up in Salt Lake, the guy who he says, "This is the place," is my great-greatgreat grandfather, Green Flake. Now this is kind of a, this is my, this is Green Flake's daughter, my greatgreat-grandmother. This is my great-grandmother. This is that same great-grandmother with my grandmother, with my mother, with my older sister. Now, the curious thing is: so far the oldest of each generation is a woman, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then now down here, this is a picture with my grandmother, <points> her; my mother, her; my sister, her right there; her daughter Lonnie, the first of that generation, and her daughter. Visintainer: Wow. <laughter>. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 50 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 So for seven consecutive generations, it's all girls. Visintainer: That's amazing. Jackson: And then finally she broke the mold. She now has a son, which is the first of that generation. And this is another curious thing. This is my great-great grandfather, one of them. And he's Mexican. And he changed his name to George Stevens. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: <laughs> It doesn't show up much in my DNA, less than 1%. So my family has always had this knowledge. And then my wife got really into it. And then, and Green Flake-- This is a statue of Brigham Young, which is in downtown Salt Lake City, if you've ever been there. Visintainer: I've never been. Jackson: And in it, they list all of the original pioneers. And then down in a corner it has the three slaves, and which includes my great-great-great grandfather, Green Flake, you know. And, um, so he becomes the oldest living member of the original Mormon pioneers. Of the original ones. And so he's at the Jubilee, the 50th anniversary, he gets invited back from his farm in Idaho to be an honored guest as the oldest living. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And so, and here this lady stands up, this is from the Salt Lake Union Tribune of 1903 or something like that when he's there. And [the lady] asked him what it's like to be a slave. And so we actually have in quotes from the Tribune what it was like. 'Cause he was born in 1828. So, so that was kind of curious. And so where they did make a marker at a park, Pioneer Park. This marker was there, and somebody tore it down years ago. And I took my sons to see it with my mother, and this is his tombstone, which is kind of cool. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 51 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And, uh, so somebody tore this down, and then, so this-- It was amazing, this summer, last summer past, they finally-- that's my family reunion, right? This picture right here, that's my sister and aunt. They finally built this thing. Look how small they look. Over a 10-foot statue of Green Flake now is in the, the historic park, um, Heritage Park of Salt Lake City, Utah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's got this oversized statue of Green is finally made the, besides the footnote. But anyway, that was just in July I think they commemorated that statue. So that's part of what gives Jackson strength. Visintainer: Yes. Jackson: You know, is knowing that you have a, you know, a big history with this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Are we over time? Visintainer: Uh, we-- we we're actually almost out of [camera] battery strength. <Jackson laughs> We've talked for a while, so I think it's as good a place of any is to end the interview. I actually have so many more questions for you, but-Jackson: That's all right. Visintainer: We'll run out of, we're run out of battery so-Jackson: That's okay. It was fun to talk. Visintainer: It is a real pleasure to have you-Jackson: Be hoarse the rest of the day. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 52 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. <Jackson laughs> It's a pleasure to have you visit us and-Jackson: Yeah, well thanks for inviting me to recall some good things and, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: There were no real flashbacks, you know? Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: It can happen though. Every now and then, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Oh man. Visintainer: Well, thank you again. Jackson: Okay. Hopefully that was-Visintainer: I'm gonna go ahead and end the interview. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 53 2023-06-08 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jackson, Anthony. Interview transcript. March 7, 2023. Description An account of the resource Major General Anthony L. Jackson retired from the United States Marine Corps on January 1st, 2012, after more than thirty-six years of service. After retiring form the Marine Corps, he served as the Director, California State Parks and Recreation from November 2012 through June, 2014. Major General Jackson has also served as the Chairman of the California State University, San Marcos, Foundation Board of Directors. In his interview, Jackson discusses his upbringing in a military family, including participating in a sit-in in a local drug store, and offers a comparison between his military service and that of his father, who served in the United States army. Jackson discusses life on military bases and support systems for deployed soldiers. Jackson recounts the courtship of his future wife, Sue, their early relationship, and the experience of being in an interracial relationship in the 1970s. Jackson discusses his later career with the Marines, including serving as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT, where he helped make the case for the military to purchase Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs) during the second Iraq war, and working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, AFRICOM. Jackson also discusses finishing his military career by returning to Camp Pendleton and other western U.S. bases as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West). Jackson finishes his interview discussing his time working for California State Parks, his relationship with Cal State San Marcos, and his family lineage, which includes the enslaved wagon driver Green Flash, who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anthony Jackson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-07 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Civil rights demonstrations Iraq War, 2003-2011 Military families Mormon Church Piracy -- Indian Ocean Racism United States. Africa Command. United States. Marine Corps Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Houston (Tex.) Indian Ocean Iraq Oakland (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Stuttgart (Germany) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Anthony Jackson License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Anthony L. Jackson OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JacksonAnthony_VisintainerSean_2023-03-07_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Jackson, Anthony. Interview March 7, 2023. SC027-32 2:18:08 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM csusm California State University San Marcos ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; Military families ; Mormon Church ; Piracy -- Indian Ocean ; Racism ; United States. Marine Corps ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Houston (Tex.) ; Indian Ocean ; Oakland (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Stuttgart (Germany) ; United States. Africa Command. Anthony L. Jackson Sean Visintainer JacksonAnthony_VisintainerSean_2023-03-07_access.mp4 2.0:|72(14)|107(6)|150(11)|238(14)|318(10)|378(6)|429(9)|478(5)|513(6)|550(15)|599(3)|636(6)|675(8)|701(7)|744(6)|778(3)|837(7)|886(11)|920(15)|983(7)|1022(16)|1047(11)|1097(18)|1155(12)|1211(5)|1239(4)|1286(11)|1308(15)|1359(3)|1403(14)|1438(17)|1491(2)|1534(15)|1577(4)|1628(9)|1666(10)|1714(2)|1746(10)|1766(5)|1841(2)|1872(10)|1906(14)|1950(3)|1999(3)|2022(6)|2061(11)|2091(3)|2124(4)|2167(3)|2194(9)|2275(11)|2301(14)|2328(13)|2395(13)|2425(8)|2461(11)|2492(10)|2558(16)|2602(17)|2647(2)|2687(9)|2745(9)|2776(12)|2807(8)|2872(15)|2921(18)|2971(2)|3025(4)|3119(3)|3140(9) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/8e01398f12b5d84483867231d0d018cf.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Major General Anthony L. Jackson, March 7th, 2023, by Sean Visintainer, Head of Special Collections, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 43 Childhood and formative years Jackson describes his childhood, growing up in a military family that moved around the world, as well as his schooling, meals, and football recruitment. He also describes what life is like on military bases, and how he was fortunate to grow up at the time that he did, with opportunity provided by the sacrifices people made during the civil rights movement. civil rights movement ; Germany ; Hawaii ; Houston, Texas ; military base life ; military family ; Oakland, California 0 937 Father's military experience / Growing up in Houston and Fort Hood during the civil rights era Jackson speaks to his father's military experience and the challenges his father faced as a Black enlisted soldier, as well as his father's feelings on Jackson joining the Marine Corps. Jackson recalls the part of his childhood spent in Houston and nearby Fort Hood. He describes the segregated nature of the area, and participating in a sit-in at a local drug store. Jackson also recalls his sister's refusal to move to the back of the bus, fighting in high school and being picked on because of his accent, and speaks to his idea of equality vs. equity, using a metaphor for starting life with a backpack. enlisted Black soldier experience ; General Frank E. Petersen ; Houston, Texas ; racism 0 2290 Family deployments Jackson discusses his father's and brother's deployments, including why his brother was drafted to fight in Vietnam and his brother's medical evacuation to San Francisco. Butte College ; California State University Chico ; drafts and deferments ; Korean War ; Matt Jackson ; medical evacuations ; Vietnam War ; World War II 0 2515 Support systems for deployed soldiers Jackson discusses how support systems evolved in the armed services for deployed soldiers from his father experience to his own. Jackson discusses informal and formal structures and how military spouses play a role in supporting each other. Jackson also discusses the necessity of taking care of military families and how that impacts combat ability. Army ; Key Volunteer Program ; Marine Corps ; military spouses ; Navy ; Ombudsman Program 0 2987 Jackson's dating, marriage, and enlistment Jackson recounts meeting his wife, Sue, at San Jose State University and their courtship. Jackson describes interracial dating at the time and their family's reactions, and recall his ring-buying expedition which ended with a job. Jackson speaks to his work in the insurance industry, and decision to quit that job and enlist in the Marine Corps, and later to re-enlist. courtship ; enlistment ; interracial relationships ; Mike Anderson Agency ; Paul Barriger ; re-enlistment ; Sue Jackson ; U.S.S. Mayaguez ; Vietnam War 0 4116 Qualities of a successful Marine and a successful marriage Jackson describes the value of judgement and moral courage in making one a successful Marine. He discusses the value his older enlistment age gave him, and recruit training. Jackson also describes why he and Sue have a strong marriage. courage ; judgement ; marriage 0 4424 Working as the Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT [Marine Corps Forces Central Command] Jackson describes his work towards the end of his career, including as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT [Marine Corps Forces Central Command], where Jackson and his staff - especially civilian scientist Susan Alderson - were instrumental in getting MRAPs [mine resistant, ambush protected vehicles] to forces in Afghanistan and Iraq. MARCENT ; MRAPs ; Susan Alderson 0 5040 Working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, Africa Command [AFRICOM] Jackson recalls his work as the first Director of Military Operations and Logistics for the newly created United States Africa Command, and recalls in detail piracy around the Horn of Africa, and operations resulting from Somali pirates capturing of the U.S. cargo ship Maersk Alabama in 2009. AFRICOM ; Maersk Alabama ; piracy ; Somalia 0 5520 Returning to Camp Pendleton Jackson recounts a career fork where he could have gone back to Iraq to be a chief of staff, but instead ended up as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West). Jackson recounts his previous times at Camp Pendleton as a colonel and his family's decision to build a house in Fallbrook while Jackson was deployed to various places including Japan and Iraq. Jackson also recalls getting shelled while eating in a mess hall in Al Anbar Governate in Iraq. Camp Pendleton ; Fallbrook, California ; Marine Corps Installation West 0 6078 Jackson's relationship with CSUSM and work with California State Parks Jackson recalls returning to the area and getting acquainted with former university President Karen Haynes and joining the CSUSM Foundation's board. Jackson describes not desiring to work after his retirement from the military, and why he decided to go to work for California State Parks as their director. Jackson also discusses the similarity and differences between working in the military and parks, and discusses his decision to leave California State Parks. California State Parks ; CSUSM ; Jim Mickelson ; Karen Haynes 0 7203 Camp Pendleton and military bases Jackson discusses how Camp Pendleton specifically and military bases in general integrate with their surrounding communities. Jackson also discusses how federal aid and military projects have an effect on the surrounding community. Jackson recounts a negative experience with an invitation to speak at his high school alma mater where he was asked not to wear his uniform. base-community relationships ; Camp Pendleton ; Economic Recovery Act ; federal aid ; prejudice towards servicemen 0 7757 Family history Jackson shows a family history album that his wife, Sue, created, and discusses his family tree, his father's prize fighting career, his grandparents, siblings and extended family. Jackson recounts his mother's side of the family history and their ancestor Green Flake, who was an enslaved man who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Jackson speaks to the presence Green Flake has left in history. boxing ; Brigham Young ; enslaved peoples ; family history ; Green Flake ; Jackson family ; monuments ; Mormonism ; Salt Lake City 0 Moving image Major General Anthony L. Jackson retired from the United States Marine Corps on January 1st, 2011, after more than thirty-six years of service. After retiring form the Marine Corps, he served as the Director, California State Parks and Recreation from November 2012 through June, 2014. Major General Jackson has also served as the Chairman of the California State University, San Marcos, Foundation Board of Directors.&#13 ; &#13 ; In his interview, Jackson discusses his upbringing in a military family, including participating in a sit-in in a local drug store, and offers a comparison between his military service and that of his father, who served in the United States Army. Jackson discusses life on military bases and support systems for deployed soldiers. Jackson recounts the courtship of his future wife, Sue, their early relationship, and the experience of being in an interracial relationship in the 1970s. Jackson discusses his later career with the Marines, including serving as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT, where he helped make the case for the military to purchase Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs) during the second Iraq war, and working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, AFRICOM. Jackson also discusses finishing his military career by returning to Camp Pendleton and other western U.S. bases as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West).&#13 ; &#13 ; Jackson also discusses his time working for California State Parks, his relationship with Cal State San Marcos, and his family lineage, which includes the enslaved wagon driver Green Flash, who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Sean Visintainer: Hello, this is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Major General Anthony Jackson for the California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History initiative. Today is March 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Major General Jackson, thank you for interviewing with us today. Anthony Jackson: Yeah, you're welcome. It's a, it's a privilege, kind of a, an honor, I guess I should say. Visintainer: These are, uh, the favorite part of my job that I get to do. So it's a real pleasure to have you. I forgot to mention that I will take some notes as we're interviewing, just so you know. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: So I can circle back to questions if I have them. Jackson: All right. Visintainer: Uh, things like that. And I wanted to just start off by asking you about your childhood and your formative years. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: Um, where were you born? Jackson: I was born at Madigan General Hospital in Fort Lewis, Washington. My father was a career soldier. So I was the fourth of his children. Uh, let's see. And being a military brat, you grow up in a lot of different places. But, uh, yeah, my dad, uh, he lied about his age and lied about his parentage to join the army shortly after Pearl Harbor. He met his, my mother in, May of [19]42, and married her in June of the same year. And then he went overseas to Europe for, for three years. In those days they went for the duration and came home to see my, uh, oldest sister was three years old when he got home. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And then, my older brother was born in [19]46, and then Matt, and then Don was born in [19]48, and then I was born in [19]49, and the Korean War broke out so my mother got a break. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And dad came home in [19]52, and Clay was born in [19]53. And then Dana was born in, uh, [19]56, and Tawnya was born in [19]57. I guess they're Irish twins. And that was the last of the kids. But if you notice, I was seven. The girls, Betty is the oldest, and Tanya the youngest. And then there's five boys, and I'm the top dead-center. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, and, uh, highly competitive sports-oriented family with the boys. And, uh, I guess I should say that the main thing in that growing up was, I was kind of taking notes and reviewing my own life a couple weeks ago ; that I started school in Germany, did kindergarten and first grade in Germany, and then my dad got stationed in Los Angeles. So I, uh, spent the second grade in Los Angeles. Then I spent the third grade-- He got sent someplace else, spent the third grade in Houston, Texas, his hometown. And then I spent four through the seventh grade in Colorado at two different schools. And then back to Texas for the eighth. And then in the middle of the ninth grade, a couple months into the ninth grade, we moved to California in 1963 as uh, and all my teachers in Texas were excited. I was going to such a great state for academics. And so I got here in October [19]63 as a ninth grader, as the brand new kid talking funny, dressing, funny and-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Fighting my way through the ninth grade. But, so I was fortunate to go to high school in Oakland. You know that they have three-year high school. So all my high school years, I was the first of my brothers and sisters. If you'll see those days, you'll see that they got ripped off and didn't go to one single high school, my older one. So I was the first one that kind of got planted at one place. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then, um, and that was really good because counselors and everybody started prepping me for college. Uh, Mrs. [Phyllis] Collier wouldn't let me go. She constantly -- she was my counselor -- constantly tried to get me into college prep classes, which she did, and make me take the SATs. You're not going to the state wrestling finals unless you take the SATs. And, uh, and that was a good experience. Yeah. Football became my, uh, my great love of sports, although played a lot of baseball, basketball, and all those kinds of things, wrestled in high school. But I got a football scholarship, offered several scholarships. I was lucky to be... I was born at exactly the right time. You know, the high, the civil rights movement, the, all the sacrifices of so many people during the Civil Rights Movement. When I graduated from high school in 1967, universities were looking for me in terms of race, in terms of athleticism, in terms of grades and SATs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I just happened to be born at that exact right juncture of the civil rights movement and who could get that young African American into the university. But I took a football scholarship, because I knew that was just based on pure athleticism or whatever. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: But it was still important. That was, the doors were opening wide, and I just happened to be the right age, born at right time as well. So that was my kind of through high school, uh, living in a lot of different places. Three years in Germany, four years in Colorado, off and on in Texas. And so, um, with mom and dad always providing a good solid family basis, and my mother was incredibly, like, I still look back and, you know here I was a high-ranking officer, [inaudible] and having two kids was expensive. Here my dad was a sergeant in the army, not an officer. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And he, and somehow she managed to put together great meals that we were all healthy and athletic and all that. And I still wonder how she did it. It was pretty-- she was pretty fantastic. She sewed our clothes and did all kinds of things that, you know sometimes I see the kids walking around here with patches and torn jeans and all that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That would've been so embarrassing for my family. &lt ; laughter&gt ; We were, we were poor, you know, and here these kids, I guess middle class kids that, that wanted to look like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: We would've been totally embarrassed. And mom would sew up those torn spots. Visintainer: You said she was, uh, she managed to make great meals for everybody in your family. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: I was curious, is there a, is there a, a particular meal or food that really evokes memories of your childhood? Jackson: I would say that we ate a lot of cooked cereal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, things like cornmeal and oatmeal and grits and yeah. And, um, it was because it was inexpensive and filled with nutrition. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I presume and it filled you up, you know? And so, uh, yeah. And you never turned your back on your plate. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Spaghetti and meatballs, you turn your back. One of those meatballs was gonna be missing you know. I mean, you never missed dinner. You never missed a meal. You were always home. You didn't wear a watch. You didn't have a watch, but you knew what dinnertime was. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And you knew, you knew that, uh, you know, to be home for dinner. Um, so my mother was a, just a great cook. And, uh, and I just remember that there was always a meal, uh, sometimes they were pretty creative. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Like, she would make syrup out of, uh, out of sugar and water, and she'd just melt it down. And that would be the syrup for your pancakes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, she didn't, orange juice, you know, if the can said "mix three cans of water with this," she'd probably mix four, four or five you know, stretching things out. She could do that. But, uh... Man, she-- Yeah, you would never turn down one of her meals. I would just say that, uh, everything she cooked was worthy of eating. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Except turnips. Visintainer: So that was the, that was the vegetable. That was-- Jackson: Yeah, that was the one. I mean I liked all the other green vegetables and stuff like that. But I never really, I was kind of amazed when I was being recruited. I was being recruited to play football at UC [University of California] Berkeley. And, um, they brought me into the Bear's Lair, Bear's Lair, their kind of campus restaurant. And they put a salad in front of me, a green salad with just lettuce-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I said, what &lt ; laughs&gt ; , what am I supposed to do with this? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Because I'd never had a lettuce salad that I could ever have recalled. So I had to watch, uh what the coaches who were recruiting me were doing with that 'cause our meals were substantial. And [inaudible] they were designed to fill you up, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: As a kid more than anything. Yeah. Visintainer: Did, uh, did you live on bases? Jackson: Yeah. We s-- you know, um... We, we, we lived on and off base. The military, it wasn't until my time in the military, the military used to be when you got stationed overseas, families had to move off the base housing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And it was in my times in, I think in the, uh, I want to say in the 1980s, that even though your, uh, spouse was overseas, you could stay on base, uh, at least in the Marine Corps. But we lived, um, sometimes we'd stay a while with relatives. But my mother was from Salt Lake City, Utah. And so we would sometimes stage there for a couple months before we went overseas or before we went to California or something like that. And, but, let's see, on-- in Germany, yeah, all that time was on military base. Colorado was four years on military base. Oakland, the first couple of years we lived on a military base, but my dad also kept a little home in Houston, Texas. And a couple of times we would move into that house. And uh, but when he retired from the Army when I was a senior in high school, he bought a home in Oakland. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: And that was my senior year so that was the first year I had moved up in the pecking order to get a bedroom by myself. 'Cause we usually lived in a three-bedroom house, one [bedroom] for mom and dad, one for the two girls and then the last one, was either for my older brother, if it was small. And we, like in Colorado the older brother had a room, and then the four younger ones slept in the basement. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: In bunk beds, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then finally when I was a senior, I got a room to myself for a few months when, you know, so, um--But we settled, the family settled in Oakland. And that's where my mother and father lived until they passed away. And, uh, they-- so it was, uh, the military bases are sort of protected in some ways from-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: A little bit different than society, you know. And then even as I went through my career, we stayed on bases sometimes. Not always. Visintainer: Uh, you said that the military bases are protected and different from society. Jackson: Yeah. Its-- They're, they're a little bit different-- Visintainer: Could you explain-- Jackson: Because first of all, I'll never forget, like when we were stationed in Hawaii, and my kids were like six months old when we got there, and two years old. So they were pretty young. But by the time they were there, we were there for a year or two. The military police knew where your kids belong. They knew what house. If they saw your kid running amuck someplace, "Yeah, maybe you had to go back to your yard," you know, because-- And so from that standpoint, and military police are a different sort of presence. They're more like the old neighborhood police officers. They're Marines essentially. And now they have some civilians that do that on military bases. The other thing is: all your neighbors, you're all in the same boat. You know, you're gonna say, although, you know, you have sometimes segregated housing based on rank. Um, um, and they [military bases] have their elementary school, they have their grocery stores. They have their equivalent of a Walmart or 7-Eleven. They have their gas stations, their fire department, the hospital. So you have a city, literally, or maybe even several towns, like as big as Camp Pendleton is, there are several schools in like the northern part. Once you get to high school, uh, and junior high, you go to San Clemente Public Schools. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: On the, on the eastern side, where I lived on the base, or southeastern side, you go to Fallbrook schools and on the south side of the base, you go to Ocean-- your kids go to Oceanside schools. So, uh, but, um, everybody's employed, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: There is a hierarchy, you know. If you're-- That is respected. Kids stop when they're hearing the national anthem is being played every morning at eight o'clock. If they're at the playground in the morning at eight o'clock, or when the flag's coming down in the evening at sunset, they'll stop. And you'll see kindergarteners stand in position of attention, while getting off the swings and the teeter-totter or whatever they call them now. And uh, it's kind of unique. Even my Great Dane used to know to stop and sit when the national anthem was being played, you know, just-- So it's a, and race is erased. Mostly. I mean we're all a product of American society. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Um, um, and it's more, I would say it's more of a meritocracy in terms of what you experience and how you experience, and your rank and your uniform automatically entitles you to X amount of respect. And everybody rec-- and that includes the general has to respect the most junior person, you know. And so uh, you're somewhat protected and there's rules that are, that are pretty strict, you know? And even the, even the nurses in the emergency room got to know my sons. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "Hey, Brian, what are you in here for this time?" You know. He's a skateboarder. Bashed his skull, skinned his face, you know, all of that stuff. And they know him. "Uh, okay. You're a Jackson kid. All right. Okay." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Do you, do you think that that experience was similar for your father? Jackson: No my dad, he lived a whole different world. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's one of the stage setters. When he, when he was 17 years old, trying to get into the military in 1942, Marines didn't accept Blacks into the military. It wasn't until a year later, you know. And he lived in Texas, you know, grew up in Texas. And in his youth and for a long time, even through a portion of my youth, Texas was one of the most violent places to be African American. I mean I had a, I had one of my Marines, a master gunnery sergeant, a very senior enlisted Marine, who was my senior enlisted advisor. And he's a Texan, African American. And his father was lynched in Texas. And so what's your, um-- You know, so there's, there's, there's only a generation or two that separates you from that kind of conduct. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And when my dad joined the Army, it was segregated. Matter of fact, he was stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City, 'cause that's where one of the last of the Buffalo Soldiers were stationed at, at, at, um, even at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century, the Buffalo Soldiers had been stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City. And so when they started bringing in African Americans into the US Army for World War II, that became a place where they trained. And so they didn't have a USO [United Service Organization], they had a USO for white soldiers, but they didn't even have a USO for Black soldiers. So in creating a USO for Black soldiers, now they recruited my mother, you know, to be one of the hostesses. And that's how they met. And within two weeks they were married. Geez. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they stayed married, you know. Um, so. And dad, I am sure when I see, you know, I think he was extraordinarily smart, extraordinarily clever. And you had to be more clever to survive, I think, in those days, because there were a lot of racial booby traps that you could walk into. And I think that, um, I don't know all of the history of that, but he should have been, with the number of years he spent in, 24 years, he should have been a higher rank in most circumstances. And I won't recall what the family's story is as to why, but I have pictures of him at a higher rank. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then he retired at another rank, lowered, 10 years later, you know. So he was, so there was an incident that occurred, I think, with my older brother, Matt. And he was, an officer had bumped him on his bicycle and knocked him to the ground and knocked a tooth out, and when my dad was called to the scene, this is more family lore, the officer used the N-word in referring to my, my brother. And the officer was white, and my dad reflexively hit him. And he was a master sergeant at the time. And, uh, this was when we lived in Germany. And my dad was a prize fighter too. He was really good. At one time he was, uh, rated in the world and he was an alternate on the 1948 Olympic team as a light heavyweight. And, um, and so, uh... But the army liked him enough to keep him, but they had to do something. And so he became reduced in rank by one and then permanently put in that rank. Jackson: And he stayed in that rank for another, I want to say twelve years, which is not normal. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Even today or yesteryear, that wouldn't have been normal. So they liked him, but they [inaudible]. So he paid a price that I could-- I didn't pay. And when I joined the Marine Corps, I'll never forget what him saying, "Why did you want to join that redneck outfit?" Because remember, in [19]42, they wouldn't take, they took a lot of, and it was [19]43, they had their first [Black] officer, they had their first [Black] pilot in about 1950, first general African American in 1981, Frank Petersen. So it's uh, it was kind of a, you know, my, my my answer to him was, if not me, who? Somebody has to be. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I was not the first but I was one of the few at the time that came in. And General Petersen leading the way, of course. But yeah, dad had a different life. Mom had a different life. She, I mean education, that was the key difference. You know, is that I was fortunate my mother and father were both high school grads and both of them believed in the power of education. So that was, I think it was really vital to the development of all of us. And then coming to California, which when I came here, it was the number one best school system, public school system in the nation. And I don't know-- If I understand, it doesn't rank very high now, but when I came here, the, you know, from the high school to the community colleges, to the state colleges and state universities, uh, it couldn't be better. So another lucky break for Tony Jackson. Visintainer: Yeah. Um, you mentioned your dad grew up in Texas. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And he had kept a house there for quite a while. Jackson: Right. Visintainer: Was he particularly, uh, happy when he got stationed in Houston? Jackson: You know, that's something that I would've been too young. He was, he wasn't stationed in Houston. He was stationed in another-- at, uh, Fort Hood, which is outside [Houston]. I don't think that-- he never expressed that. And I was too young if he, if he emoted it to my mother, you know? That was, that would've been grown-up talk back in those days. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But Houston was segregated. It was, the schools were segregated. It was kind of ironic because I'd lived on army bases. I'd done most of my-- Up until the time we moved to Texas, when I was in the third grade, I did kindergarten, first grade in Germany at integrated school, at the military school on base. And then we came out to California. But that was a short stay. But I did second grade in integrated schools. Then all of a sudden, in third grade, I'm in this town and the part of town where dad had a house, everybody's Black, the policeman's Black, the pharm is Black, the teachers and principals, they're all Black. And that was the first, you know, uh, 1958. And, uh, it was, uh, it was very interesting. Corporal punishment. That's the first time I met that one too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Where the teachers could paddle you? Yeah. You, they, they, they still did that. I remember getting my hand paddled because my writing was so poor. Um, but, um... So we moved there [Houston] because he did not want us probably to live in the part of Texas where that base was, and close to relatives. He had a, uh, his, his half-sister lived there, the aunt that helped raise him lived in Houston. And so, and his father lived in Houston. And so, uh, we lived there just a half mile or so from his sister and my aunt, Juanita. And so, uh... And he never gave any indication that he wanted, um, wanted to live there permanently in Houston. You know, I mean, the movie theaters, in those days, you had to sit in the balcony, even the beaches were s-- you know, they had a rope. This was for white people. This was for Black people. Don't cross the rope. The drinking. I remember as a 13 year-old doing a sit-in, in the eighth grade, when we moved back there the second time, the civil rights movement was pretty churned up. And young people, high school, college were doing sit-ins at, uh, at the drug stores that didn't allow you to sit at the soda fountains. You might be able to buy something there, but don't sit down at the counter. And I remember myself from a couple of my eighth and ninth grade buddies, we decided, we were waiting for a bus, and we wanted a RC Cola and a moon pie. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And we walked into the local drugstore to buy 'em, and we decided we were gonna sit at the lunch counter, like all these kids were doing around the nation. So we did our little sit-in, and they, this big old guy comes out from somewhere in the warehouse, and he's pounding on a billy club, like, "Hmm, what are you kids doing?" But he didn't say anything to us, just the, the waitress behind the counter. She was very nervous trying to get us to get up. And we looked over and saw him and just waved. And then our bus came and we walked out. But it was our little, that was our little act of defiance. And every now and then, you'd have to say if not me who? And so we sat at a lunch counter for a while, you know. Visintainer: So I had seen it in another interview. You'd referenced this, uh, lunch counter sit-in. Uh, didn't go into detail. And so I wanted to ask you a few questions about it. So it was, uh, it was totally spontaneous? You were-- Jackson: Yeah. It was spontaneous. We, it was, it was in the news. People were doing it in Virginia, in Memphis, and, you know, and it was a, you knew there was a kind of a hazard you could end up, you know, uh... in jail or something, you know. But we just, I think there's been a couple of times where I've been involved in civil rights protests, but where you just have to do something, you know. I mean, I mean, you just-- I watched my older sister, probably one of the greatest acts of defiance that I've ever seen: my older sister, Betty, she's 80 years old yesterday, and she's just as tough as she was when she was. But I was riding a bus with her in Houston, and this was in the fifties too, so it had to be about [19]58. And we were riding across town, heading home, and we, we sat right in front of the bus. Whether she was thinking, you know... You got to, she's, she's a pretty feisty little-- and then she would've only been about 13 or 14, and I would've been third grade. And, so we sat in the front of the bus, and the bus driver stopped, and the bus was crowded, and he wanted-- bus driver stopped and came out, told her she had to get up, go back of the bus and let these white people sit down. And I'm like, "Hmm." I'm only nine years old. So I'm like, hmm, this big old guy is. And then she refused to move. And, um... And then he balled up his fist and he threatened her, and she refused to move. And, uh, and she just sat there, and then he had to go drive that bus, and he left her alone the rest of the ride. She never budged. Visintainer: That's very courageous. Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the way she is. And so you, you know, I've seen, and, you know you grew up with those pictures on tv, the Birmingham and all that stuff, and Little Rock and, bombings and kids with-- and so you knew that there was this tension. But like I tell people, and I gave a speech the other day for Black History. I was always a person that took literally the words of the, the, the preamble to the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Gettysburg Address. And I remember I had to memorize the preamble in the Gettysburg Address and the first couple of paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence when I was in segregated schools in Houston, Texas, in the ninth grade. And I took those words literally. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I looked at my dad's service, and he had obviously paid a, you know, paid for his citizenship, wearing that uniform for 24 years. And so I always have had the feeling and, uh, that, "Hey, if you're, if you're better than me, that means you can whip me in the football field or wrestling, or you can beat me on the spelling bee or the math bee or something like that. But you don't automatically get that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That's not an automatic. I walk through the door like you walk through the door, and then we'll see how it goes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, and I guess that's, I even, uh, even in my own career, I kept that same kind of attitude. And you know, and I've got deep roots that in terms of where my family comes from, especially on my mother's side. My wife does these great genealogies. And, I actually book brought the book that she has kind of put together. Rather than just a photo album, she puts together genealogical albums, and they're kind of cool. Visintainer: Nice. Jackson: I'll show you at some point if you want to see it. Visintainer: Yeah, I'd love to. Jackson: Yeah. But, so, but, you know. One of the things I do tell people, sometimes younger people is that, we like to say that we're all born equal. And that's a kind of an idealistic sort of thing. But if your mother was a drug addict and you were born addicted, you're not the same as the guy who's like, my kids, you know, their dad was already an officer, and already was financially stable, their mother was healthy, a registered dietician, and what she did during her pregnancy is very different than what this-- And so the kids start out equal in terms of under whatever your religion is, under your god's eye, maybe they're equal, but in terms of what the world's offering 'em right now, real different. Okay. And so things like race-- and so I say, "Everybody's born with a backpack, and in that backpack is X amount of rocks." And it's a little bit different, what the weight is at birth. Now, as you go through life, you can take out a rock or you can add a rock. Some of 'em are based on choices of, of your own choice. And some of 'em are based on family choices or just accidents. And race is one of those things that can either be, um, a rock, a heavy rock in your pack. Or it can lighten your load. And that's one of the ironic things about it is for my dad, it was probably a heavier rock, but for me, it lightened the load. It might have actually lightened the load, you know? And so as we-- As you-- And so as a result of that, his carrying a heavy rock and me having much lighter load, I owe him something. But more than that, I owe the next generation something too for that. And, you know, does that make sense? Visintainer: Yeah, that's a wonderful analogy. And something I've never heard phrased that way. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I think it's, it's uh, befitting somebody who was in the military to talk about weight and backpacks. Jackson: Yeah, right, yeah. I guess, so. Visintainer: Did you come up with the analogy when you were in the military,?Jackson: Yeah. Yeah, probably. I did. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. I was in you know, it is, uh, it's -- life is like that. Now, and you, and a lot of times, and once you get to be a certain age, and I was telling this young man that I met, he was very bold. He was in the high school, junior ROTC [Reserve Officers Training Corps] at an event a month or so ago, and he walks right up to me having, I was introduced as a general. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And here's this, you know, maybe 14 year-old kid. He was in the ninth grade. And I said, "You know what?" I said, uh, I asked him about his grades and all that. I said kind of, "You're lightening your load. You're an honor student. You wear that uniform well. You're doing athletics, keep doing that. Everything you do, it counts from the ninth grade on. I mean, that's when you're getting your GPA counts, you getting your PSATs, you're doing all these kinds of things that people are gonna judge your next opportunity on -- post high school." And says, "So, you young man are lightening your load, you know, so keep it going." Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Yeah. So it is kind of a, yeah. I guess it's military speak. Can't help it. Visintainer: Yeah. Um, I just had one follow up question about, uh, about your drugstore sit-in. Well, actually, I guess I had a couple. What was the drugstore? Jackson: You know, I'm trying to remember the, because I don't want to-- we had a lot of Walgreens in that part of the country. So I think it was Walgreens at the time, that, uh, it was right at our bus stop. And, uh, yeah. Then they, they became quite a target for students, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's a, nowadays they don't even have the soda fountains in the drugstore like they did in those days, you know? But yeah, I'm pretty, I'm about 90% sure it was Walgreens. Because number one, because I don't remember any other of the drug stores that were there. And it was, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But-- Visintainer: Did, uh, did you ever tell your parents? Jackson: Yeah. Well, at that time, dad was someplace else. I think dad was stationed in close to the North Pole in Greenland. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Yeah. And so we were in Houston for that stay. And, um... And I probably told my mother. When I was that [inaudible] age... I really, it was hard for me to imagine living beyond eighteen. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We lived in Houston. You know, we lived-- we were bused to school past the white high school and junior high into what you might call the ghetto. Fifth Ward in Houston. And it was nicknamed "Bloody Fifth" for good reason, because somebody was getting killed kind of routinely. It was a very violent part of Houston, Texas. And, uh, my junior high and eighth and ninth grade was in Fifth Ward. And my older brothers and sister, they went to Phyllis Wheatley [High School]. I went to E.O. Smith [Junior High] which was named after a African American poet. And, I was probably in a fight, like... I mean, here I was this guy that didn't have an accent. And I was marked, even my teacher, I remember my English teacher mocking my, uh, "trying to talk like a Kennedy," she told me. She told the whole class, 'cause I was reading something and she stopped me. And she, "What are you trying to talk like a Kennedy?" I said, "This is the way we talk in my family." I didn't know this was any different, but yeah, coming to the south, you're talking different and you don't have their accent. And, uh, and so I was kind of a prime target for a while. And yeah. And fortunately I played football and you know, and I had two big bad older brothers. And so, but it was like-- you know, you had to fight. And then right in the middle of ninth grade, I moved to Oakland. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Which hardly is just that much better. But that was only two fights. So that was quick and easy. And fortunately we were all trained to box and stuff like that, so it turned out all right. But really when I was fourteen, fifteen, I thought eighteen would be, "Yeah. Eighteen's about right." You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so you, you, you were already, you know, so when I say I'm seventy-three, you know, I'm a happy camper. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: Exceeded expectations. Yeah. Visintainer: Um, I was curious about when your, when your father was deployed, you said he was deployed to Korea and was he deployed in World War II? Jackson: He was in World War II, but I was not even born, and so the war, he wasn't deployed. He had seven kids by the time Vietnam, so the Army wouldn't send him. You know, that would've been quite a burden. So he did not, well, he served during the Vietnam War in the early stages, he never deployed to Vietnam. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: The family member that got deployed to Vietnam was my older brother, Matt. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: He was, he was drafted. Uh, and yeah, the way it worked out was that my older sister had graduated from high school. I ended up being the first one to graduate from college, just 'cause my older sister, it wasn't the norm or the expectation. And she had gotten married and had a kid, so, and she's probably as smart or smarter than every one of us. And then Matt, my older brother, there wasn't the financials in the family and he had gone to four. Different. High schools. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Every year. And so, although he's a better athlete than I ever was, he was never recognized in one spot, scouted out by universities or anything. So he ended up going to Chico State [California State University, Chico] a year later on an English literature scholarship. Um, and because he was a year behind his peers, he didn't have the college credits necessary to avoid the draft. And so he got drafted. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And then he goes in the army, goes to Vietnam and gets really some disease and maybe even Agent Orange. Uh, he-- affected him very badly over there. And so he was medically evacuated from Vietnam to San Francisco. There was a big army hospital in San Francisco and eventually discharged, got his GI bill, went back to college, got his B.A., Got his master's degree, and became a dean of students up at Butte [California] Community College. So he lived a really good life. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Great kids, two outstanding kids. And then a terrific wife, Billie. Billie passed away a couple years ago, but she's just been selected, gonna have a big induction ceremony through the Chico State Hall of Fame. And so she, and here's his daughter is the CEO, Joy is the CEO. It's not the GRE but there's another graduate record thing, you know, and so Matt did well, so. Don, my older brother, short time in the Air Force, booted him out for whatever he did wrong, you know, but I'm the only one that made it a career [inaudible]. So, uh, um, yeah. But, but mom was always that glue. Just like my wife Sue is the glue for my boys and who did most of the child raising. I had this big strong boxer-soldier dad that I really looked up to and was my lifetime hero. But mom was actually doing the hard work. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And probably the same thing in my family in terms of, you know, dad's a Marine and a officer and doing his thing and going away and, and, but the military spouses who get left behind, they do a lot of the child raising, set the standards. And so when people say thank you for your service, they really ought to be talking to the spouses. Visintainer: Well, and that's something I was kind of curious about in that, when, when somebody's deployed, and if there's, I guess this is kind of a complicated question that I'm formulating as I go along, so I apologize if it gets a little jumbled, but when somebody's deployed, like in your father's time, um, were there support services involved with the Army to help out, to help out the parents that were staying and raising children? Or were they more informal in nature? Jackson: They were very, very, very informal. Not, and I, quite frankly, I can't-- I can't say I have memories of during my father and mother's time that they had the support services which are ingrained in the services now. And even when I came in, to be honest, in [19]75, the military's attitude, the Marine Corps' attitude was probably, well if the, if the Marine Corps wanted you to have a, wanted you to have a spouse they'd have put her in your, in your sea bag when they issued you the gear. Was that in there? Okay. And that was probably the attitude. It wasn't until the eighties that the Navy and the Marine Corps, and I'm not quite sure when the Army, but I'm sure about the same time with them, we started putting together really substantial programs. And first it, it revolved around volunteers and-- but organized in what they call the Key Volunteer Program. And in the Navy it was the Ombudsman Program. And, and, and that, and that was in the eighties. And in, in the, in the, um, 2000s, as we were getting more involved in the Middle East, they actually started hiring family counselors, Members that take, they literally took the place, for each battalion, they would have professional kind of family counselors. And so, and they still had the Key Volunteers, but then they paid people and they had, uh, it was presumed prior to that, that the wives, an officer's wife, the senior officer's wife, would take the lead whether she was-- wanted to or not. It was, it was presumed that that would happen or the senior enlisted wife would team up with her and they would take care of all the younger ones and all that. And there were just some women who were not, you know, not that social or did not want to do that, or were-- wasn't in their personality. So there was a lot. When I was a young commanding officer, a company, I knew if I was over in the Far East in Japan or something and with my whole company and Corporal Ramos' wife was about ready to have a baby here at Camp Pendleton I'd call my wife, buy some flowers for Corporal Ramos' wife, put his name on 'em and take 'em over to the base hospital and make sure she knows that he's thinking about her. And my wife was willing to do that, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so, and I would willingly pay for it out of my pocket too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Uh, but it, it, it's, it is now much more formal and it's expected and it's expected in the military, and now you have a lot of, we probably have more daycare centers per capita than the, than regular society, you know? There's, I forget, there's a half a dozen or more daycare centers on Camp Pendleton. Miramar has theirs all the bases and have the childcare centers. And so I think that there's much more, the military has taken a, uh, realize happy wife, happy spouse. You're more likely to have a career, [inaudible] soldier, sailor, marine. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You're taking care of the family too. Visintainer: It makes sense in terms of retention and morale and all of that, yeah. Jackson: All of that. You know, one of the things I found is it translates in many ways to combat power. You know that no matter what happens to you, that your family's gonna be taken care of and you're gonna be taken care of. And so that's, that gives you strength, that gives every marine, every soldier, every sailor, that kind of strength. You know that I saw in other foreign armies that you got wounded and you're not killed you, you [shakes head]. So their soldiers weren't as aggressive. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Uh, they didn't have the same initiative to, you know, and it is not because they were less, you know, a man or less brave. It's just that they had that, well, there's no VA [Veteran's Administration], there's no, there's no widow's pension. There's no, you know. And so he's gotta be a little bit more careful, you know? So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It does equate to the combat power. Visintainer: I's a, it's a rock in your pack perhaps. Jackson: Yeah. In terms of success for the mission that you're about ready to accomplish. Visintainer: Yeah. Okay. Um, excuse me, you mentioned the Key Volunteer Program and so I, so I understand like the, you know, the purpose of a counselor or the purpose of a daycare-- Jackson: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: But I was curious as to what the Key Volunteer Program, like what their purpose was, what types of activities they undertook, and as a support-- Jackson: I, I think the main focus was to make sure if the families had a need, that it was taken care of while the service member was overseas. And a lot of times the wives would organize parties and picnics for the kids and, uh, things like that. Or they would exchange phone numbers so that you knew who to call in case of, you know, there's a rattlesnake in the garage the day after your husband left, you know, the car broke down the day after your husband left. Um, uh, so, but the whole idea of the Key Volunteer Program was to make sure that the families knew where to go when they needed support, when the spouse was deployed overseas. Uh, and, uh, and they were literally volunteer in the most part. In the early days, you didn't get guys, it was mostly the wives, but now we have more you know, the, the... The military member may be the, the, the, the, the woman and the man is now the spouse that needs help when-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you. And so that was the whole point of the, um, the Key Volunteer Program: to bring them together, they knew there was a tight-knit family that would help take care of-- It was kind of like, uh, East Battalion had its own village, you know? And the village was designed to take care of, of all of the people that were left behind. Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So yeah, Visintainer: That's, that's pretty interesting. I'd never, never heard of this, uh, program before. Jackson: Yeah. It's a, it's a really good program. They professionalized the lead person at the battalion in about two thousand and three. A battalion's about a thousand Marines. Like on Camp Pendleton you have battalions and squadrons. Squadrons is the aviation equivalent of a battalion. And they would all have a senior lady, and they put, they actually had paid people do that. I think they're maybe toning that down a little bit with no war, but they still have the program. Uh, um, and, uh, yeah. Visintainer: Excuse me. Um, let's talk about how you decided to enlist. So I understand you were, you were graduated with a master's [degree] at this point. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: You were working and-- Jackson: Well, let's see. I got married. Sue and I got married. We met at San Jose State [University]. Um, I had always aspired to be an officer. I thought I'd join the Army when I-- I was in ROTC just for a short while, at San Jose State in Army ROTC. And, it didn't sit well with all the other things that I was doing. But I still aspired to be an officer. Okay. I met my wife in an anatomy and physiology class in Spring of 1969. And, um, and it was a night class, so I would just walk her back to her sorority and I'd go down the street to my dorm. It was just a matter of safety and coming out of class after nine o'clock in an urban environment. And, and that was it. We didn't date or anything. I would just escort her. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, football player escorting pretty sorority girl home. And she's only two blocks from, or three blocks from where I was staying in the dorm. But the next fall, we were on campus and I met her on campus, just kind of bumped into each other again, not thinking much of that previous spring. And she said she had moved outta the sorority house, "come on over." So, mm-- you know, I was a little reluctant, you know, uh, blonde blue-eyed. And those days I wasn't dating blonde, blue-eyed gals. So I recruited a couple more football players, Black, to come over and visit her and her friends, just so it would be-- And uh, son of a gun if the three football players and her three roommates all left and went to a party! So there we were, you know, and, uh, we studied together and then we got to start getting together on Thursday nights just to study. My grades shot up which was really good. And she was a home ec[onomics] major, and so she'd experiment with foods with me and being a football player, I could take all the calories she could pump out, you know. So I'd get an extra meal every day, &lt ; laughs&gt ; kind of, every Thursday, when we'd get together. And then finally by the end of that semester, or close to it, I said, "Are we an item?" You know? And we decided that we were an item. So 1970 rolls around, and we, we decide to get permission from her side of the family. My side of the family reluctantly accepted the interracial dating, my dad being a Texan, that, that, you know, he had bad memories of that stuff. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And, uh, my mother was, she loved everybody no matter what. But her [Sue's] parents weren't real happy. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So the explosion went off and which actually drove us tighter together. We just wanted to date openly. Um, I often say that we had gone to see the movie, Guess Who's Coming To Dinner with Sidney Poitier... And, uh. And when her parents found out about it, and I suddenly realized I was not Sidney Poitier. It wasn't gonna work out. But that sort of drove us together. And within, uh, four or five months, I just asked her to marry me. And, uh, because her family disowned her for the very fact that we'd gotten-- we were wanting to date. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they didn't want her to date. And I had never told her I loved her. Visintainer: Yeah. Wow. Jackson: We just wanted to date openly. And so... We uh, as the, as the, her world crowded in on her to try to break us up, it forced us together and me to be more defensive of her. And her-- she stood her ground. And uh, I once told my mother, "Well I don't know what love is, but I know what sacrifice is, and she has opted to date me," as opposed to a family that-- I mean, she's 21 years-old, you don't just give up your family. Her family gave up her, you know, and so, and that was just her mother and father by the way, not cousins or grandparents. Um, uh, and so. Uh, we got married. I asked her at Thanksgiving in 1970, "Hon, will you marry me?" You know, and she said, "When?" I had no idea when. I said, "semester break!" Jackson: It was my senior year. She was in grad school. And, uh, so I didn't have a job, but I'd just played my last football game the previous Saturday. And so the scholarship was gonna run out at the end of, uh, at graduation. So I was on time, Four years you know, because four years scholarship, you know, and, uh, so, uh... I s--, but I didn't have any rings or anything. So I go, um, but there was one alum, and this is another reason why I will have to reach back. There was one alum, Paul Barracker, little Jewish guy. He owned, I thought he only owned one jewelry store. He ended up owning four. But this little guy. And I told her [Sue], I asked her on Thanksgiving to marry me. And I said -- when we get back, we were visiting her sister in Sacramento -- "When we get back to San Jose, we'll go to Paul's Jewelers, downtown San Jose, and we'll get rings." Now, I didn't have a nickel. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That's the ironic self-confident naive, uh, kid I was, I guess. And so Monday rolls around and we go down to Paul's, which is just, you could walk off campus, to Paul's-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And Paul's in the store. It's one of these stores that, you know, straight in downtown, it's jewelry on this side, jewelry on that side, just walk back to the counter. Very narrow store. Paul's in the back and he sees me come and I, you know, he was an alum who would come to football practice, sometimes fly to the games on the same plane as the team. So that's how I knew him. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: As this alum who supported football, not as a friend. I mean, he was old enough to be obviously my dad or, or, or maybe even older than that. And Paul comes running out, I mean, little bitty arms. I could wrap my hand around his bicep, close my fingers. Right. And he's in a football stance. "Tony so good to see you!" "Paul, hold it!" He's really enthusiastic. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Old European kind of an accent. And, uh, he-- I said, "Paul, hold it. I want you to meet my fiancé, Sue." And he said, "Oh, so pleased to meet you, Sue!" Does this double handshake. I'll never forget this. And then he goes, I said, "Well, what are you doing?" I said, "Paul, I came to buy, uh, our wedding rings and engagement ring." He says, "Oh, good! Good, good, good!" I said, "But Paul, I don't have any money, so if you hire me, I'll start to work." He says, "Okay! Okay, okay. You stop bothering me. Go back, talk to my secretary, fill out the application. You can come to work. Sue, you can buy anything in the store." So I got, I got a job selling jewelry through, through grad school, paid for those rings. I come to find out just a few years ago that Sue gave him a $25 down payment or something, but she just told me that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But I worked for Paul. He taught me all about sapphires and all the diamonds and his jeweler, the guy who made some of the jewelry, he would teach me. He was from France. And he would, we had, I'd give him some English lessons, and now he liked my accent because it was flat. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, it didn't come with a New York or a twang or anything like that, accent. And so we exchanged a little bit of, he would teach me about clarity and diamonds, and I would clarify some words he didn't understand. Okay. But I did that for about a year and a half. And I also, uh, coached at a junior college -- football -- and realized that I didn't want to be a football coach. But I had finished my master's degree, started my PhD at UC [University of California] Santa Cruz in history. And just, and I was teaching a class -- History of Third World Peoples -- as a grad student. And I just said, "Stop. I gotta, I gotta get on with life." Sue was a high school teacher. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I actually went to work for an insurance company. So time is marching on. In the back of my mind, I still want to be a military officer. I still, war is going on in Vietnam, and I'm sitting here now, I'm in the insurance business. I'm making a lot of money. We bought a house in what became Silicon Valley. I can't even afford that house now. But bought a house. She got tenured. I was making a lot of money in the insurance business. My boss was really glad that I decided, you know, again, I was offered several jobs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, when I finally decided to work, he tried to recruit me right outta college. And my, before I-- Right when Sue and I got married, he tried to get me to go to work for him at his insurance company, and I'd turned it down, but now here I was a year or two later and I was working for him and he was really good. It was like having somebody, being in a master's degree class, the Michael Anderson Agency with Penn Mutual Life. And this guy, Mike Anderson, was just a terrific teacher and mentor. And, and so I got off to fast start under his wing in insurance, and I was the consummate kind of, you know, I'd just been the captain of the football team, and all that [inaudible]. I'd been in San Jose for five years and all that stuff. So I knew a lot of people. And so I could contact them. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But one day I was with a bunch of clients in, uh, in, uh, Candlestick Park, the old Giants, San Francisco Giants watching the Giants and Dodgers play in May of 1975. And across the screen, the-- from days on end, you saw pictures in the news of Marines and soldiers evacuating people from Saigon [now Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam] and helicopter, dramatic, people holding onto the rails of helicopters trying to get out as the North Vietnamese took over the country. And the same thing was happening in Camb-- Cambodia, and Phnom Penh. And so, uh, I... And an American ship, the U.S.S Mayaguez had been captured by the Khmer Rouge, a communist group, and we didn't know where the sailors were from that ship. And across the screen at the ballgame, kind of the old ticker tape kind of thing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: "US Marines, recapture the Mayaguez." Said the thing. And I'm sitting here with hotdogs and beer and entertaining clients at a game. So the next day I put on my suit and I went to a recruiter. Didn't tell my wife. He goes, "Hey, you go to college?" And I said, yeah. And he said, "Well, you need to go see the officer selection offer in Alameda." So I took all my tests, signed up all in one day, came home and told her. I remember the guy, he goes, "Do, you wanna, you want me to come home? I got a great movie we can show your wife. About what you're about ready to experience." I said, "You don't want me in my house tonight," &lt ; laughter&gt ; , "When I tell her what I just did." So I became private Anthony Jackson for a while before I went off OCS [Officer Candidate School]. But I was twenty-six, I was running out of time, and these guys were serving overseas, risking their lives. And here I had done nothing to really validate what I thought. And my idealistic view was to validate my citizenship and ensure that you could never deny me. As my father did, as my little brother did. So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I still promised my wife it would only be for three years. Said, "Three honey. That's it." I actually got out and went into the reserves for about a year in keeping that three-year promise, which really, I was kind of sliding. I didn't realize I was gonna, eh long-- I found that the Marine Corps was my calling. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And even I got out, went to work, another high-paying job. Got, they gave me a brand new car with Kaiser Aluminum &amp ; Chemical, and sent me to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. But I just couldn't believe I'd be working. Uh, and I, so I joined a reserves unit to stay in touch, and then I realized that I started living for that reserve weekend. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And not what I was doing with Kaiser and, uh, and money wasn't important to me. And so I asked the Marine Corps to take me back, and the rest is kind of history at [inaudible] point. Visintainer: Had you ever expressed to Sue before you, uh, before you enlisted, that you had this idea? Jackson: Yeah, she knew that. She knew that that was kind of in my bones, but I really wanted-- I, in the first couple years with that flare-up in her family over our marriage, I wanted to make sure we had a solid marriage. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Before I all of the sudden ran off and left her, you know. I really did. I think that was why I delayed for so long, uh, was, you know, that was a pretty big sacrifice on her part. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And it was never healed back up. I never, I had never met my-- I met my mother-in-law, but I never did meet my father-in-law. Although we did have a civil conversation on the phone one time. But that was the only time I even talked to him. And that was in like 1978. So, um, and then he passed away. As if-- it was ironic because he and I should have been really good friends. We're, you know, he's a naval officer. He was a World War II destroyer escort. And he had, he'd graduated from UC Berkeley, their ROTC program. He was down here in San Diego when Pearl Harbor was attacked, on his reserve duty and mobilized right away. And they sailed into Pearl Harbor just the week after. You know, he was still smoldering. Things were still, they were still trying to find guys that were in capsized ships that were still alive. And, um, and he kept a diary. And, a part of that time, he had great distinguished service during World War II, became the CO [Commanding Officer] of a ship. He was a junior ensign when Pearl Harbor happened, but he had his own ship by the time the war ended. And, uh, and then he retired as a Navy-- captain in the Navy, in the reserves, started his own business in, uh, he became a plumbing contractor, not a-- the guy that supplies all the contractors with all their gear. And during the boom years of growth in the Bay Area and made millions. And of course my wife probably didn't know how many millions he made, but she was disinherited. And that was, that was, uh, her sister got it all when he passed away. And that's probably how we found out. But, um, and so, yeah. She's, she's tough. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, and, and held her ground and, uh, and it has been a source of strength and you don't really recognize all those things. She is motivating. She won't take credit, but she has been a prime motivating factor in my life. Um, uh, I mean she has her own, she has her own opinions, her own thoughts, et cetera. But, you know, you want to, you want to do well for those who believe in you kind of a deal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So you know, I've always wanted, I mean, I've taken great risk at times without thinking about that, but I think one of the things that's always in the back of my mind is that, you know, I do owe this woman something. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so don't screw it up, buddy. But that means certainly you have to be a person of strength, especially if you're in an organization like the Marine Corps. You know, you're not a yes person. I mean, you can't be a yes person. I mean, you, you, you, you have to gauge when you should engage and you have to engage when you should just, maybe just shut up, but be willing to take on the right fights, you know? And sometimes you win 'em, sometimes you lose 'em, but don't back down until it's time to back down and then have the judgment to know when it's time to back down, you know. So it's kind of a give and take thing, because sometimes you're the boss and sometimes you're the junior guy that has to execute the plan. Visintainer: And having that judgment, I think is really difficult when you're, uh, so invested in something. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I imagine if you're in the Marine Corps and you're in a situation where you need to have that judgment, you're very invested in it. Jackson: Yeah. And, uh, and I've been on those sides of that, you know. I've lost an argument and then had to be the presenter, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, you're the guy that, uh, "Wait a minute! I was the only one in the room that objected." "Yeah. But you're, you're the communicator. You're gonna communicate it up the chain, right?" "Wait a minute, I'm-- there were twelve guys that agreed with you, sir." "Yeah, Tony, but you were the most articulate, you're presenting it! Just make sure you win!" Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "When you present it up the chain, you know?" So I've been on that side of the coin. And, you know, you-- And the other thing is, I did appreciate the Marine Corps. That the Marine Corps appreciates strength and not weakness, not, you know, it appreciates the fact that you will pick the right time and place. You know, you don't want to embarrass the boss, but will you challenge him? And so you have to have that combination of moral courage and judgment and communication skills to win over when it's not, it may not be a smooth subject. Okay? I think that is both been an asset and may have cost me a little bit of something at some point, but not nothing that-- I mean, my career exceeded my expectations. I'm not a Naval Academy guy. I'm not an ROTC guy. I didn't come out as a 21 year-old. I came in as second oldest guy in my OCS platoon. There was one other army guy that was a former soldier that was older than me, but I was, I was already as a-- the same age as my first bosses, my first commanding officers when I was a second lieutenant. And so I was always kind of -- agewise -- I think that was an edge, actually, that lightened my load because I had a sense of humor and I wasn't afraid of the process. I wasn't afraid of the process. Yeah. Because you had to. Yeah. When you go to OCS or recruit training, like down here in San Diego, you just have to drop who you are. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: For that twelve weeks. You gotta just drop who you are and accept that you're gonna be a mold. You get to be who you are once you get out of that process, you know, of them breaking you down and building you back up. So I think my age was actually a benefit. Because of my body was still, uh, easily willed into Marine Corps shape. So, yeah. And having a dad who was a sergeant in the army probably helped me a lot too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I already knew how to make a military bed, you know, to inspection standards. We did that before we went to Sunday school. We got inspected. You know, it's really funny about not remembering this as a kid. You're standing in front of your bunk just like I did at OCS, and your dad's inspecting the shine on your shoes and the crease in your trousers and stuff like that, you know. And here you are, you're ten, you're ten years old, and dad's throwing a quarter on the bed to see if it bounces. The bed's that tight. The bed has to be tight enough of that coin to bounce up, you know? So Yeah. We got those inspections on Sundays. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Boys lined up. Uh, yeah. But, uh, yeah. So, yeah. So it's been what? Sue and I have been married, yeah, we just celebrated our 52nd [wedding anniversary], you know-- Visintainer: Congratulations. Jackson: Whew. Yeah. That's, uh, it's been, it's been a road. It's been a good road. 'Cause we, you know, we, we, we have a lot of things. I tell her that the reason why we're a successful marriage is because we have absolutely nothing in common. You know? I'm a hunter and she's a doggone near herbivore. You know, not quite, but you know, uh, yeah. And we, we, we have a lot of, a lot of differences, which make it kind of good because she has her leans, and I have my leans, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. It gives you space to be your own person and you can come together around commonalities. Jackson: Right, right. And so, and then we'll come together for like a trip to the Sierras [Sierra Nevada mountain range]. Well I'll do fishing, and she'll do her native plant art, her botanical art. She likes to do that. And, uh, and so it's really kind of interesting. They'll come back at the end of the day, she'll show me her drawings and I'll show her my one little fish. So, yeah. But, uh, Visintainer: Excuse me. So, um, so you've had a really long and distinguished career and I don't think we have time to go through it in like, phase, you know, and, and every phase of it. So I'd like to skip forward just a bit towards the end of your military career. Jackson: Okay. Visintainer: And talking about the work that you did, as I understand it, as the commander of, marine camps, Marine Corps, Installations West. Jackson: Right. Visintainer: Um, and so this is a, this is a big deal, right? Jackson: This is the culmination of, uh, um, all of my general officer assignments were big deals, I thought. I mean, they were shocking the amount of responsibility a nation was willing to give a person and this special trust and confidence that you build up over, you know, twenty-eight, twenty-nine years and they finally make you a general. Um, so, uh, if you don't mind, I'll talk about the first assignment. I was, uh-- here, I was selected for my first star as Brigadier General. And I was given the assignment to be the Deputy Commanding General for Marine [Corps] Forces Central Command. MARCENT in shorthand. So, which meant that I was gonna be the deputy for first General [Wallace "Chip"] Gregson, then General [John F.] Sattler, and then general, I had three generals who became my bosses, general [James N.] Mattis. Um, so in that capacity, my headquarters, I had two headquarters, one in Tampa, Florida, where Central Command is, and one in, Bahrain, which is on the Arabian Gulf near Saudi Arabia. And, my main job was to ensure that commanders and marines in contact on the battlefield had what they need. You're, you're the link for, the commander needs this, and industry makes it, and your headquarters. You were the judge on whether: did they really need it? And if they really needed it -- which I always agreed with the commander on the battlefield, because he knew his needs -- does the industry have it? And if headquarters is fighting it, tell them to get it, we're buying it. And I had that budget too, and so I would visit the battlefields and visit the commanders, uh, both Afghanistan and Iraq during that two year assignment. And they, and, and the-- so being in and out of the battlefield, it was different than being deployed. I had been deployed to Iraq as a colonel, but as a general, I was in and out. And I would also do diplomatic stuff in Egypt for the United States military. In Egypt, in Pakistan, and Bahrain and Oman. And I would go around and visit the military commanders and my peers. And, um, but the most critical thing I did was teaming up with a scientist named Susie Alderson, who is from right here in Fallbrook. And we, the battlefield, the commanders were wanting a vehicle that was more durable and could sustain the improvised explosive device explosions [IEDs]. And we just did not have that. Uh, we had the vehicle that our, our, our explosive ordinance disposal teams, they had a vehicle called a mine resistant, ambush protected vehicle, an MRAP. And if they got hit by a mine, it, because these guys went out into mine fields all the time and diffused them, or blew 'em up or whatever. They had this one special vehicle that the South Africans had developed that MRAP, but the [US armed] services weren't, they were sold on the Humvee for some reason. We were taking horrific casualties from these improvised explosion devices. Taking off arms, legs, killing people. And so when I was in Afghanistan, I had a United, I visited this United Nations mine clearing team, and they invited me to ride in one of these South African-built MRAPs as they were gonna clear mines. And here this general, my aide was a young captain. He did not want to get in that vehicle, but they had kind of like, "come on for the ride," okay sort of challenge you. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm in a helmet, flack jacket. I've even got ballistic protection where it really counts, you know, and, uh, so, and these guys were dressed much like you. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so I took-- accepted their ride, and we hit probably seven mines, more? Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: But they were all -- fortunately -- anti-personnel mines. And so we got rattled and we could hear the shrapnel hitting the sides of the vehicle, but we were okay. But-- Visintainer: What did that feel like when you hit a mine that first time? Jackson: Well, this vehicle was pretty solid, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I mean, what it, what it just, it kind of set off alarms and gives you a little adrenaline rush. And it was kind of like if you'd had, you ever had a rock hit the windshield in front of your car? The way it smacks that hard. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Yeah. It's like a bunch of those at once. Except they're hitting metal, so you-- And I could see our chase! They gave us a chase vehicle just in case we got stranded out there, you know, vehicle breakdown. And I could see he was hitting them too. So it wasn't doing any, anybody, any good. The Soviets had laid a lot of mines and they were just, they were just horrible in Afghanistan, 'cause they put 'em in these farmers' fields so they wouldn't grow, couldn't grow crops. And that's what the UN was doing there, clearing them as we were fighting Taliban or whoever else. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I came home. I had this passion to get this vehicle, and I had, but I wasn't gonna be able to do it. Generals, the Army had refused, the Marine Corps had refused to get this vehicle. There was a whole, I didn't realize this fight was going on. I just knew my experience. And I had seen them before. General Gregson had showed me one. And here comes Susie Alderson. She had been in Iraq for a number of months, and she on her own initiative, she was a scientist assigned to me. And so she had been over there. Um, mine was a new command, so they had just set up MARCENT to handle the Middle East. And so I was the first permanent. So here I had this scientist assigned to me, and I hadn't tasked her with anything mm-hmm. But she had been over there and she did a study on survivability in various vehicles. So she had all the data laid out, if you're in this kind of, um Humvee you're gonna get killed. If you're in this kind, ehhh, there's a 80% chance you're gonna get killed. You're gonna get your legs blown off. If you're in this truck, this-- but if you're in this MRAP that the improvised explosive of the [inaudible] explosive warning disposal teams, you're most likely only gonna feel concussion. Not a death. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So I said, "Susie, great! That fits my passion." I called my staff together, put Susie and them together. Said, "You got ten PowerPoint slides, and we're gonna present this to the three-star [general]. So you [inaudible] no more than ten, they w-- general officers will fall asleep if you got more than ten PowerPoint slides. Do not do that." So I left the room and left her to my staff to power-- come up. They came in a couple hours later, "Sir, this is the brief." And I said, "Perfect." I didn't make a change to it. Susie and my chief of staff put this, it was beautiful. I called up on a secure VTC [video teleconference] because my boss was out here at Camp Pendleton, and here I was in Tampa. Got him on a little secure video of the day and told Susie, "Susie, you're the briefer. The generals have never won this argument, but you got the right voice." And, so she briefed it and they, General Sattler stopped it, or slide number seven. Next thing you know, we called up the commandant, okay, he got it in three slides. And I started buying these vehicles. I mean, and I won't bore you with the technical part of it, but Susie's data got those vehicles in within six or seven months. I mean, I sent her around to all the big vehicle manufacturers in the US said, it's gotta have this transmission, it's gotta have this drivetrain, it's gotta have this engine. And these are the three different prototypes that you can build. You know, the John Deeres of the world that build heavy equipment, they changed assembly lines. They were happy to pitch in. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, the first 300 [IED] hits in 2006, no Marine Corps deaths. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So Susie becomes the mother of the MRAP and gets the highest decoration that a civilian can get in peace time in the, in the Department of Navy. So that was a big deal. And then as a two, that was as a one-star, that was one of the best effects as a one. As a two-star. I get assigned as the, uh, we have these four star commands, combatant commands is what they're called. One for the Pacific, one for Europe, one for South America, um, Pacific, European Command, Southern Command... And, we're gonna develop another one. And it's US Africa Command. And I'm chosen to be the first Director of Military Operations and Logistics, the J3 and the J4 for that command, headquartered outta Stuttgart, Germany and our focus would be the continent of Africa and all the associated islands. Minus Egypt. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We kept Egypt in Central command. And, uh, so, uh, it's brand new! There's nothing there. I mean, we're in rehabbed Army World War II buildings that belonged to the Wehrmacht in 1930. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Its [inaudible] journey. And so we gotta build this new command. And there were two two-stars there that were, we had a four-star boss, uh, General Walls [William E. Ward] and uh, and the Air Force, his [Wards's] chief of staff was an Air Force two-star. But I was the Director of Military Operations, which, you know, is-- I mean, you're just, you're thinking about it for every military event that goes on in the, in the continent of Africa that the US is involved in, you're gonna be the director and the advisor to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the president, the National Security Council, and the President of the United States. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You're gonna be the direct guy. And my boss was the kind of guy that, uh, general Ward, when I said Walls-- General Ward was the kind of guy, he liked to do all the diplomatic high stuff, flying around, meeting with heads of state and senior military. And he left the operational kind of running of things to me. Which I liked, but it kind of was, uh, it was interesting. Sometimes I would just wonder, okay, if we do this one, so probably the most prominent one would be in, um the, the pirates off the coast of Africa, off of Somalia. And, uh, and we had, and they generally speaking stayed away from US ships. But they would take these ships. These guys were once fishermen whose fishing industry... I mean the guys who actually were the pirates, not the businessmen in London and Somalia, the kingpins in Somalia, the warlords, but the ones who executed, the actual pirates, you know, they would get word from London who's flagship, what cargo was on it, what the crew was, all that would come out of London. And they'd filter it into Somalia. Visintainer: So there's somebody in London doing research to let them know what's headed their way? Wow. Jackson: Yeah. And so, and they know what insurance company and all this, and these guys had been fishermen, but the industrial fishing of China or Korea or Japan had just about depleted their waters. So they could not-- and so you had an understanding from an intelligence standpoint of why there was this piracy, these guys who could execute it. And they were just the lower end of the whole international cabal. But-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, um, but when they captured the Maersk Alabama, uh, which was a U.S. Flagship. No way. 'Cause we weren't gonna negotiate with those guys. So-- Visintainer: When was this? Jackson: This was 2008. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: They captured the Maersk Alabama, probably the spring. With a U.S. crew on it. And, uh, so, um... let me think. Yeah, I think that was under President Bush. Let me think for a second. 2009? Yeah, it was 2009. I think that was, I think it was actually one of the first decisions that I had to get out of President Obama. So that had to be 2009. And so it was very early in his term. So it was either late winter or early spring of 2009. And there was one guy, uh, the crew overpowered most of the pirates themselves. Without a gun fight. But, a shot was fired. One of the pirates was injured. And, uh, three of 'em captured the captain, of the ship, Captain [Richard] Phillips, and lowered a life boat and got off the ship. They made a movie outta this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, um, and, uh... So now we had, they had a hostage. We had the ship back, but they had an American hostage. And so myself, um, Admiral [William H.] McRaven was the head of our Joint Special Operations Command out of Fort Bragg [now Fort Liberty] here. So he had the Navy Seals and all the special ops guys. But they're, it was Africa's, AFRICOM's territory. My boss's out galivanting. So McRaven and I, we had the [Navy] Seals put on standby and they started rehearsing. And we had -- it's amazing -- we do several rehearsals on paper and drills. We had done a rehearsal of this on paper the year before. And so we kind of knew what the plan would be, you know? We didn't know how it [would] end, the very end of it, but we knew how we would get the right forces to the point that they could execute a mission. And then once they were at that point, it was up to them exactly how, but getting them from the States to-- so McRaven and I reviewed the plan, called up the, the Joint Chiefs, the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman [of the Joint Chiefs of Staff], and briefed the plan. And we both agreed that we had a good plan to get the Navy Seals to be able to get the, the captain back. And we got pretty fast approval from the president. I think that's what we were all surprised 'cause he's a young senator we were all grizzly old admirals and generals older than the president, you know? And so we didn't have a lot of confidence 'cause these things are time sensitive, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, we, you know. You know it ended sadly in one way, because we killed all three of the pirates. Killed three of 'em. The one guy that survived was wounded when the crew took over. And so he, he was medevacked to one of our ships prior to... And we, Captain Phillips, we brought him home and it was it. So that was one, um, of a significant event. But I guess the thing is, is that you're making these life and death decisions. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That, you know, I would often tell myself that, "Hey, you have to look yourself in the mirror. And then when you get to the pearly gates, he's the only one that can pass judgment on your, on your judgment." You know, because there's been a couple of circumstances where, you know, you've directly impacted whether or not people have lost their lives or you've taken life. And so, uh, it's-- it's just one of those things and there's certain people that have to make those hardcore decisions and to think that you're in that position. And so after two years of doing that, which was a real from the bottom up, creating a command and all of the, I mean, bringing tech, I mean we're, we're talking about copper wires that were put in by the Germans in the 1930s under Hitler that we're pulling out and pulling fiber optic cable on. So we're literally building buildings and running this command and making those kinds of decisions and other decisions which have national significance, you know. And then I was the first ordered to, or to go to Baghdad [Iraq] to be the chief of staff for our forces in Iraq for General [Raymond T.] Ordierno. And, but my boss, General Ward, he'd have had to let me go early, but he had, he had become so, uh, reliant on me -- and it was a new command -- and the Marine Corps promised him a full two years that he would have me, because they had to convince him to take a Marine. He's an Army four-star, and they had to convince him to put a Marine in that very position. And he, and he took me, you know, he probably had some young Army two-star that he would've liked to put in there, but he took me in on his command. And so when the Marine Corps said, "Hey, if you leave six months early, you can go back to war." And which from a, from a Marines standpoint, it would've been best for me to go back to Baghdad. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: And be the chief of staff for General Ordierno, that would open up more opportunities as a flag officer, more senior rolls. But to get stationed at Camp Pendleton, my wife's a Californian. It was the alternative. So when General Ward objected to me leaving six months early, it became, uh, the fallback was the Marine Corps assigned me to be the Commanding General for Marine Corps Installations, West. MCI West, which included seven Marine Corps bases out west, to be the senior guy and be stationed in my wife's hometown in a place where we had owned homes in the past. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Great place for my kids to go to school. And, and so, and my kids had already, I had in 2004... In 2002, my oldest son graduated from Fallbrook High. He got, we came here in [19]98 and he-- my wife said, "I don't know where you're gonna be for the next four years, but we're going to be here as the kids go to one school." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so Brian was on his 10th or 11th school then going into the ninth grade. And so I deployed to Japan in 2002 as a colonel. And then my other son, Blaine was gonna graduate in 2004. And so I went overseas and the family stayed on base at Camp Pendleton. And then I came back and from the Far East, 'cause I didn't do the initial march to Baghdad. And I joined the unit at Camp Pendleton and we're ordered back to Iraq. And the theme went on, "I don't know where you're gonna be, but we're gonna be here." So Blaine graduated in 2004 from Fallbrook High. He got all his four years at one school. And so they were already locked in. And the wife, when I went over to Japan, I left her to, uh... She was, had chosen some land five acres in Fallbrook in 2000. Yeah. 2000. She chose five acres of this. "There's nothing here, honey." She says, "Well, I'm designing a house with an architect." I said, "Great! Then I got ordered overseas and left her to build a house. And so I departed. I came home to help her move in to a house from the base to this house that she designed with an architect. And she interviewed five or six general contractors and hired one and stayed on the work site. I was in, doing things for the nation in Japan, Korea, and Philippines. And I came back home and helped her move in and then came back from a year without family and was here for four or five months. And we got redeployed the whole, all the, most of the combat Marines at Camp Pendleton went back to Iraq in the Al Anbar Province. And I was the Plans Officer, kind of responsible for getting all the beans, band aids, bullets, people over there and married up with their equipment on a timeline, and then be the last man to, to arrive. And I remember getting there and sitting in the, getting down, getting ready to eat a meal as my host was showing me where I was gonna sleep that night and all that. And we get a bunch of incoming rounds and the whole chow hall emptied out, two of us are sitting there. And I said, "Well, there's no point in running. You might run into one, you might run into incoming." So we went ahead and finished our meal while the stuff was coming down. You know, it's random. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's random. And so, when I got stationed back here, the wife had come to live with me when I, we finally got to live together. That was, there was that time period from 2002 to 2007 that we never really lived together. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Because I was in Tampa. She stayed here with the boys, and then they both started college. And, and I got orders to go overseas to Africa command in Stuttgart. And I said, "Hey, it's your home country. Would you like to come with me?" So she came over there for the year and a half or so. And the boys were going to college and doing what college-aged guys do without parents. Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: To provide any guidance. Jeez. And then, so when I got stationed, uh, the fallback position from not going over again to Baghdad was here. It was beautiful for family. And I knew that that would be my twilight, my last tour in the Marine Corps. So from 2009 to late 2011, I got to be the commanding general for, we have our mountain warfare training center up in Bridgeport, California. We have our Marine Corps... The real main Marine Corps ground combat center out of 29 Palms [California]. Yuma has our air station, Yuma Arizona. Miramar [Marine Corps Air Station, in San Diego], Camp Pendleton, and the Air Station on Camp Pendleton. And Barstow [Marine Corps Logistics Base, Barstow California] was the seventh one. So you're kind of the, you're kind of the governor is the way I equate it. And each one of those is a city, or in case of Camp Pendleton, several cities in a county. And so they're, they have their commanding officer, a colonel. And, so I'm basically the overseer for those to make sure they have the resources to do their job. And fortunately for me, it was the beginning of the Obama era where the Economic Recovery Act was, uh, they were looking for projects and the money was there. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: To fund a lot of things. And so new hospital at Camp Pendleton, well, I got that new chow hall, new barracks, new childcare centers, all that kind of stuff. I was getting billions of dollars during my watch to build that stuff. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so it was, uh, it was a good time. I've told these young Marines now that, well, it's not gonna be like that for a while. That was during a war. And the funding was there. We had a happy Congress and they weren't squabbling over money for the military, but as soon as the wars die down, money to the military becomes scarce. Um, so, but, uh, so that was a good assignment. I would, I would say that it was, it was a little bit different than my operational time as a general officer, but we had a lot of impact. Visintainer: So this is really interesting. And I think it's, it's kind of interesting how, maybe if I'm, if I'm understanding you correctly, maybe it wouldn't have been your first choice. Jackson: Yeah. It wouldn't have been my first choice as a, yeah-- Visintainer: But in some ways it works out really nicely. Jackson: Yeah! Visintainer: To be around family-- Jackson: Because I get to be around family. I get to be-- I meet this university again. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, I never, when I, when I left, when I left here in 1986, I mean, there was nothing here. This was a stinky old chicken farm. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Uh, you know, and, uh, when I come back, your [university] president is Karen Haynes, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And her husband, gentleman Jim Mickelson is on the staff and doing what he's doing with ACE program, ACE Scholars [Services, a program for foster youth at CSUSM]. And I'm the commanding general over there. And I'm a guy with war credentials and all that kind of stuff. And, uh, and they invite me over here. And, uh, and I'm just shocked that, you know, I'd driven by a couple times on 78 and seen the building there. And, but she [Haynes] invited me to lunch and then her husband drove me around his little golf cart, you know, to campus, and I'm in uniform. And, you know, California's weird. Southern California, this uni-- our uniforms are really welcome. But Northern California is not the same place, you know. Um, and, uh, and I, and so I, she took me over and showed me the nascent Veteran Center that it was then, not what this is now. And it was kind of really a good experience and to meet Karen and see her leadership, which I would compare with any general that I'd ever served with or-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I've served with some of the best this nation has to offer. And, uh, so, so, um... It's kind of interesting that I could not develop the relationship at San Jose State. I tried to, I mean of course distance was an enemy. Yeah. You know, but they kept changing leadership. Even now, I think they're in search of another president. And that's five or six presidents in, in-- I visited the campus when I was on active duty, a one-star. And giving presentations, this one doctor there, Dr. Jonathan Ross, he was really interested. I funded a little books and furniture for their library. He had a military history library set up in the history department. And so, and I was funding a scholarship and I wasn't get-- there was no feedback. There was no feedback. Except for Jonathan. He would try, and he still sends me emails every now and then, but the university was really like... But anyway, I wasn't gonna work when I retired at first, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Okay. I certainly wasn't gonna be a commuter to San Diego and the freeways just like trying to get here today. I said, ah, I forgot there's construction. I should have went this way and that way and, uh, but, um... But, I really hit it off with that, uh, with the leadership that was here, and I retired and I was sitting around, enjoying trying to be a gardener, thinking about my next trip, doing this and that. And I turned down several nice jobs, mainly for my wife because she didn't want me to work, and I was, you know, sixty, about ready to get Social Security, max out Social Security, and then, you know, so why work? And Karen called and said, "Hey, how would you like to be on our foundation board?" And I said, okay. Man. Was that? I mean, she hooked me for, she had me set up. And I thought, hey, yeah. And I was on several boards, and so-- none of 'em paid. And, and I was gonna stay that way. And I'd bought my RV [recreational vehicle]. That was my retirement gift to myself, you know, nice. On that Mercedes chassis, looking good, driving down the freeway, camping out, fishing. And we did enjoy it. We do still have that. So we still enjoy it. And, I got calls from the governor's office. You know the boards were kind of pretty demanding anyway, and California State Parks was in a horrible position. They had money that they couldn't account for. It was mishandled. It wasn't stolen, thank goodness. Nobody lined their pockets with it, but it was making the headlines and, and, and I couldn't believe that Parks was so screwed up. Visintainer: If you want, I can pause this. Jackson: I'll just stop. No, this is.. It's amazing how these people get your number. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: My kids would text, my wife would text, you know, but these people will uh, are clever. Visintainer: Yeah. So that would've been around 2012 if I-- Jackson: Yeah. That was two thousand, yeah, twelve. Yeah. So, uh, and I'm just, I was in-- I was kind of amazed. We have no idea what the civilian sector pays for jobs in the military. As a general officer, you're basically working for nothing. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Because you've, you've maxed out the retirement scale, and because you can retire when you hit 30 years, you get 75% of your base pay. When you, in two and a half years, every year there after, so I was at 36 and a half years, so you'd imagine that I'm 75%, two and a half years times, and so I was already at 95, 97%, something like that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, you're, you are working because you love what you do. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Yeah. I mean, you're, you're, you're totally into what you're doing and it takes care of your family and all that. So I really didn't want to work. There was one job that I might have taken, and that was when the Chancellor for the UC system asked me if I would like to apply to be the President of CSU Maritime Academy. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Up in Vallejo. And that was in the spring, only two months after I had retired from the Marine Corps. And it was just, it would've just been the wrong time. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But our, but I did accept the Rockefeller Family Fund. I got to be known for some of the speeches that I gave, rather, now that I've seen the video, rather impassioned speeches about why we go to war, to a group of engineers and scientists, in particular, this one speech. And I was still in uniform and giving that speech, and I told them that, I just asked the audience of hundreds. I said, "Why is it that we're at war in the Middle East?" And you could hear the word oil echo out. You know? And, uh, and, uh, and I told 'em it was their responsibility to take us off of being dependent so we don't have to send our men and women overseas to bleed, you know, and I didn't realize they were videoing the damn thing. And it pops up all over the internet, right. So, and my job as MCI West, I mean, this is the military is a multi-billions of dollar industry in California. And as the commanding general of MCI West, you had access to the governor and Governor [Arnold] Schwarzenegger when I first got there, Governor [Jerry] Brown, later, you would meet with them once or twice a year. If there's any issues, like, you know, there's a state park on Camp Pendleton, it's one of the most profitable parks in the state park system. So this, it was good. They got the park for a $1 lease of several miles of beach, you know, and that was gonna come up for negotiation in a couple of years. And Secretary of the Navy wants real money for it now. It's not just a being a kind person anymore. It's, uh, so you have mutual interests and the environmental California Clean Air Act and all this kind of stuff and whether or not we can meet our tanks can meet your emission standards. No. So what's gonna be the offset? Things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So you're up there negotiating and trying to make them aware. And being a Californian, it also gave me a little bit, um, adopted Californian anyway, it gave me a little bit different access because I was one of them sort of. And so when I talked to a senator or to the member of the of the governor's cabinet, it came out, uh, we had positive discussions. So they knew me in Sacramento. And they knew I had a green side. And they knew that we were doing all of our green development on our bases. We were doing a lot. It was funded by the Secretary of the Navy, Secretary [Ray] Mabus and President Obama. And so, we were being really green. And so I was speaking the language of the Commander In Chief and the Secretary of the Navy, being really green, and as my war experience as well made me have pretty much total buy-in. And my wife's Prius. And the fact that she put in, I gave her $30,000 and put in solar at our house. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, you know, all of those things, you know. And so I got a call from the, from the governor's office and the Secretary of Natural Resources, if I would please consider being the director of California State Parks. I said, "Oh, man, that sounds so good. I could do my job in my RV." And my wife, who's just a natural member of, at that time of the Sierra Club and the California Native Plant Society and all that. This, that's actually a job I'll consider. So I told her about it, and she said, "Well, if that's what you want to do." Which is her logical, her normal answer too. And so I took that up, I mean, to get the millions of dollars back in the right place. They had a morale problem. But they're kind of like military people in as much as, uh, a bunch of really dedicated people that don't get paid much for their dedication. They work for the state, the state doesn't realize, matter of fact, I'd say in some of the assignments that the park rangers have, they live more austere than a military family would definitely live. And the state doesn't recognize that, but they're-- If you're a ranger and you've got a series of parks in Carmel, Monterey, and those beach parks and stuff like that, and the state can't pay you enough for housing and stuff, things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And some of the more remote places, it's amazing! Old ranch houses that they'll rehabilitate, you know, and they learn to love what they're doing. You know, they, they, they do it because they love the great outdoors. They love people, they love the animals and all of that stuff. And they hear they, "Hey, I want to give you a pay raise, bring you to Sacramento and put you at my right hand." "Oh, no sir. I want to be, I want to be right down here where I am. I don't want to be in Sacramento." Uh, and they, they, they, there's a very different, uh, they're, they're much like Marines, but they don't have an up or out sort of ethic or, or, or, or value system. Theirs is, "I'm here. Like, this is my park, these are my parks, and this is where I want to raise my family, even if it's a twenty-five mile bus ride for my kids to go to kindergarten." This is, this is in the, I loved them for that. Great people. And, and I think they were, I don't want to talk too badly of my predecessor, but they needed the kind of leadership that's taught and admired in the Marine Corps. So getting in my, I literally got my RV, we have a state park on-- Border Fields State Park right there at the fence. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Separating Tijuana from us. And we have one all the way on the Oregon border. Arizona border. Nevada border. And so I just, my wife and I, and I call the office in, um, and I tell my secretary, Lynn Black, I say, "Lynn, tomorrow I'm gonna be at Humboldt State Park. You can tell him now." Okay. But I didn't want her to tell him, you know, a week in adva-- I didn't want him scrambling. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: You know, I know how it is in the military when you know the general's gonna show up. It might be two weeks of scrubbing brass, you know, you know, if they got two weeks notice, they have two weeks of panic. If they, if they have twenty-four hours of notice, they only got twenty-four hours of panic. And you can't fix much that's broken in 24 hours. So that was great. I, I did enjoy that. I did not want a new career though. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, I told the governor I've got two or three years, and not only that, I had grown spoiled, as a general officer to make critical decisions, life decisions. And you cannot do that. I mean, you're a political appointee of the governor, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And you gotta be approved by, you know, two-thirds of the state senate. So you had to go through those hearings and all that, so you could not be totally, you could be what the governor wanted. But maybe not the governor's staff. The initiative was a little bit frightening. My initiative I think was a little bit frightening in Sacramento, and I can't stand micromanagers. Visintainer: Yeah. How was it frightening? Jackson: Uh, say your question again? Visintainer: How was it frightening? Jackson: Um, who, my initiative? Because I might do something that, uh, that might be really good for parks, really good for parks' people, but maybe it doesn't suit the governor's budget agenda. It might be too, you know, and so you did not want, and you didn't want to be that guy that-- but you wanted to do the right things, and you had to have people that would kind of support you in, in, in, in, uh, that you were trying to do the right thing. Now, they could argue, and you might not be able to do it, but I did not feel that-- the military's incredible in terms of the responsibilities that I was given. And it was based on the special trust and confidence that I had built up over, you know, thirty years of service. And that, I mean that is, you're making really important decisions affecting people and maybe tens of thousands of people. And so to come down from that, it was, was, was not ideal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you had to come down from that, uh, you know, uh, your ego. Something had to, had to, had to back off. That you no longer had that much special trust and confi-- You had some trust and confidence. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But you didn't have that ultimate special trust, you know, because, you know. And, uh, and so I, I, I, I decided that certainly I didn't wanna spend any more time in that environment than fixing what I could fix. So got the budget money straight, got it all back, started fixing restrooms, started-- I, you know, I took it like it was a military operation: to develop a campaign plan, publish it to everybody. To everybody. Put it on the, on the website so every employee could read it. Visintainer: And at some point-- Jackson: I, you know, I set up a, it still goes, they dropped me off the mailing list. My wife is still on the mailing list, but it's an email newsletter goes out every Friday. It's the same thing the Marine Corps does. I still get 'em from the, from the... from the Chief of Naval Operations. And I get a daily report of what's important. And then from the Marine Corps, every Friday I get one. You know, so that when I'm communicating as a member of a community, I'm talking from some firsthand knowledge. Not all of it, I don't, I'm not nothing secret, all open source stuff that we can communicate when we're out in our communities. As a flag officer, you still have certain responsibilities. Visintainer: Sure. Jackson: That, uh, uh, so yeah. So the civilian world's a little bit different, you know, and it was kind of... I think you have to, you have to adapt to it though, it's not gonna adapt to you. And so I, you know, after about two years, I kind of said, okay, and things are relatively stable here, for you. And, I would, I'm gonna step down and I was like I'm, I was just ready not to, and my wife one day, she goes, I was, I was commuting back and forth. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So I would like fly home on Friday night and maybe Thursday night sometimes, and then I'd fly out Sunday night back to Sacramento or early Monday morning. And, you know, and that-- one day she looks at me and she says, "This is just like you're deployed." Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know. So I knew it was about time to put in the hat. Those two things came together, that deployment remark. And I was like, challenged whether or not I did, I wanted to give up the idea of that special trust and confidence that I had grown so used to as a military officer. Visintainer: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Jackson: Mm-hmm. So. Visintainer: I had a couple questions about Camp Pendleton I wanted to ask you. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: One was, I was, I was curious about the base's relationship with the surrounding North County community and how that changed, how you've seen that change over time, if it has, maybe it hasn't? Jackson: Actually. Um, you know when Oceanside [California] was like shootouts at the O.K .Corral, not shootouts, but get drunk, go to a strip club, that kind of thing. In the seventies, it was, it was pretty, pretty harsh. And 'cause the Marine Corps was, it was, it was-- those were tough times for the Marine Corps and the city and the development. You didn't have the growth boom that's occurred over the last forty to fifty years for sure. But, I think it's really good relationship with the, with the uh, with the community. With the colleges, community colleges. I think this is a great relationship that Cal State San Marcos has with the military community in San Diego, writ large. And I think that Camp Pendleton... I think, I think the region knows that like 65% of the Marine Corps' combat power is here and you can add on the Yuma Air Station with it, is here, this is the main war-fighting engine, and you got similar but smaller in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina and forward deployed in Okinawa, Japan. But they're smaller and they have different wartime commitments. This is the heavy punch. And these bases, both the airspace, the sea space and the ground space for training are unmatched in the world. So you have the finest, this geographic area, just, just what God put here makes it that way, you know, and you can have every just about climatic condition within MCI West, with the exception of a tropical jungle, you know. From the Sierras and our cold weather arctic training to the desert, to mountains and all this kind of stuff, the beaches. And, I mean, it's incredible training. And that's why Camp Pendleton, you know, was initially, what do they call it when the city comes in and takes your property? They took Camp Pendleton-- Visintainer: Eminent domain? Jackson: Eminent domain. That's how it was. You know, here's $4 million, you're out of here. The O'Neill family, and they're the ones that developed San Clemente and all that region up north of San Clemente, you know, big developers, they're still here. The O'Neil family still, part of it's still here. But that eighteen miles of coastline, the number of military and military families associated with it. That, and the Navy, I think this is, we generate billions, like thirty-six billion dollars annually. And then in the state of California, it's over fifty-six billion dollars. So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Just about one in every eleven or twelve defense dollars comes to California. Visintainer: Wow. That's significant. Jackson: Yeah. I mean, you considered there's 50 states. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they pay taxes too. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, um, I mean, Vista, the mayors, the, and the, and the San Clemente and, and Oceanside and San Marcos, they show up at events. They're invitees. They're on the invitation list to events. The old mayor of Oceanside, he used to be quite a character, but he was kind of losing it a little bit, and he's a really nice guy and he's had some strokes and stuff like that, but he'd still show up, you know? To things. And so I think that both from an economic development standpoint, and I think Camp Pendleton also felt that during my time there, that we were really helping San Diego, San Diego County, and the local communities with our investments that were given through the Economic Recovery Act. We were employing the citizens out there. It's a, you know, it's a kind of a domino effect on money spent from the military community here. So I think there's a really good relationship between the military. And I, and I, and, and I appreciate it because I don't think every community in California, although I'm on the governor's military council, and so I get to visit-- matter of fact, we have a meeting in another week or two. I better look at my calendar up at Vandenberg Air Force Base. But we meet all over the state where there's military communities, and we try to tie the, one of the things we try to do is tie the communities with the military base around them, and a lot of, and the communities have embraced that to the benefit of both. Because if you have a, um, a water problem or a waste management problem on your base, well, that's part of the community's problem too, because you're probably locked into the system. If you're trying to do renewable energies on the base, that's probably the community's issue too. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: If the schools aren't properly funded in the communities around the base, then you're, it's probably the base people are gonna be concerned. The military families are gonna be concerned, and they're not gonna want to go there if the schools aren't good schools. And so, I mean, we did a, around both Camp Pendleton, the Fallbrook Union School, elementary school district, and around Edwards Air Force Base, north of Los Angeles, they were both schools that are impacted by the military but weren't, were slipping in terms of, oh, quality of education, quality of facilities, and getting instructors. And some of these places are hardcore. And so the military worked with them to get matching funding in both of those school districts to, to rebuild schools, to hire teachers and things like that, that affects quality of life for military families as well as, you know, the community writ large. So it behooves the communities to, uh, to be kind of tied in with the bases, and it behooves the bases to be tied in. And so the commanders normally really recognize that and are accepted in the community. I have had one negative experience. It was actually, I was at [employed at] state parks and I was asked to be the commencement speaker at my high school in Oakland. It's kind of nice. I'm a retired general coming, and then I got a phone call from them, saying the principal wanted to make sure that I would not wear my uniform to the [ceremony]. Now I've been retired for, probably couldn't fit in my uniform and he should have thought of that. "Don't wear your uniform," basically. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm going, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, wait a minute." The high school principal's asking a guy who spent thirty-six and a half years in this uniform, that he doesn't want him to wear it. Now, first of all, I wouldn't have thought of wearing my uniform to, uh, you know, if it's a military event... No, I still wouldn't have worn a uniform. Get a new tuxedo. I mean, you're in ship, tip-shop shape when you're in there. You know, you're you know. I think I've grown a little bit rotund since those days, right. Gently so. But, uh, and so that uniform is fitted to you, you know? And so I wouldn't have dreamed of it. But he, it was such an insult. I said, unless they withdraw that I'm not gonna speak. And so I didn't speak at my high school. And that was after retirement, and it was a totally unnecessary thing. But that's the difference. I mean, you'll run into that at the, at northern, you know. You know, I remember days going to watch the students riot at Berkeley and all that, but that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That was an attitude out of a principal in Oakland and my old alma mater. So, uh, and that's the only negative that, but I thought that was uh, and I just told him, I said, "Well, I can't come." I said, because it, it's like you're dishonoring-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You want me to deny I am a general. Visintainer: That's a huge part of your, your existence-- Jackson: When you, you know, as I remember Commandant General James Conway going, no matter what, gentlemen-- all the generals in the Marine Corps get together once a year, and those who aren't forward deployed anyway, and he says, "I don't want you all worrying about whether you're a one-star, two-star, three-star, whatever. You're all just going to be generals and when they put it on your tombstone, that's what everybody will remember." They don't remember if you're, whatever, general, general, Lieutenant General. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so I thought that was good advice for, you know, and, uh, yeah. But yeah, it's kind of an interesting, well, let me show you one thing here. &lt ; laughs&gt ; I brought this because my wife told me to bring it, but she's my smartest counselor. She does these really cool, she doesn't do like family albums, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: She tells the family story in this, in these, so you can-- Visintainer: Can I [inaudible]? &lt ; Visintainer moves camera to show album sitting in Jackson's lap&gt ; . Jackson: She does these drawings. Yeah. Yeah. So all the drawings you see in this, she does, there's an old oak tree down by the Santa Margarita River and it's been chopped and it's been burned, and the top's been blown off in high winds, but it's just resilient, you know? So she says, that's kind of the story of your family-- Visintainer: Uh-huh. Jackson: Resilience, you know, and so, uh... So you'll see these different drawings, and then she'll go through and then she's found, it's kind of hard ; we know that on my mother's side, this is my dad's, I mean, you can see how thin [the family tree is], when you're descendants of slaves, you don't necessarily get all the way back on the African descendants' side. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Very far. And this is my dad's little genealogical tree. And then this is my mother's. And what's interesting is from my mother's side, and this is where my dad lied on his draft card and said his parents were deceased. And, so that's my dad as a like 16 year-old. I said, he looks like older than that, and this is him at the Korean War, and this is kind of his story. And then when I said he is a boxer, now this is my dad, when I was a senior in high school. Do you think I'd ever mess with my dad? Visintainer: No you can definitely he was a, he was a prize fighter. Jackson: But he never lifted weights. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And this is a newspaper article when he was-- about why he chose to stay [inaudible]. He was a rated heavyweight fighter, but he chose to stick with the Army. And in this article there, they asked him why. And he just said it was more secure. But I only saw him in person fight one time. And he knocked the guy out with a, and this is his father and his mother. And yeah, that's my oldest sister and grandmother and my dad's sister. But there's, now it goes over to my mother's side, and this is my mother as a girl. And this is all seven, there's very few pictures of all seven of my brothers and sisters. And this is like third grade Tony right there with his finger in his mouth. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And this is, and this is us in Oakland. This is in Texas. And this is all seven of the kids. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, my dad's funeral, I think that's what got us back together. But my family goes back to the original pioneers on my mother's side of, founding, they were with Brigham Young's party. And, um, and this tells the story, and one of the three people were with Brigham Young that were slaves. And my great-great-great grandfather [Green Flake] was a slave to, that was with that original Mormon party. And so he becomes a founder. That's my great-grandmother. There's a couple of pictures in here that are kind of neat. But Green Flake, that's him, was a slave. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That came with the original. This tells the story of the original Mormon party that he was with. And he was, he was a scout. And um, and he-- and um, a road builder. And he drove Brigham Young's wagon. So when Brigham Young ends up in Salt Lake, the guy who he says, "This is the place," is my great-great-great grandfather, Green Flake. Now this is kind of a, this is my, this is Green Flake's daughter, my great-great-grandmother. This is my great-grandmother. This is that same great-grandmother with my grandmother, with my mother, with my older sister. Now, the curious thing is: so far the oldest of each generation is a woman, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then now down here, this is a picture with my grandmother: her, my mother, her ; my sister, her right there ; her daughter Lonnie, the first of that generation, and her daughter. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So for seven consecutive generations, it's all girls. Visintainer: That's amazing. Jackson: And then finally she broke the mold. She now has a son, which is the first of that generation. And this is another curious thing. This is my great-great grandfather, one of them. And he's Mexican. And he changed his name to George Stevens. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: It doesn't show up much in my DNA, less than 1%. So my family has always had this knowledge. And then my wife got really into it. And then, and Green Flake-- This is a statue of Brigham Young, which is in downtown Salt Lake City, if you've ever been there. Visintainer: I've never been. Jackson: And in it, they list all of the original pioneers. And then down in a corner it has the three slaves, and which includes my great-great-great grandfather, Green Flake, you know. And, um, so he becomes the oldest living member of the original Mormon pioneers. Of the original ones. And so he's at the Jubilee, the 50th anniversary, he gets invited back from his farm in Idaho to be an honored guest as the oldest living. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And so, and here this lady stands up, this is from the Salt Lake Union Tribune of 1903 or something like that when he's there. And [the lady] asked him what it's like to be a slave. And so we actually have in quotes from the Tribune what it was like. 'Cause he was born in 1828. So, so that was kind of curious. And so where they did make a marker at a park, Pioneer Park. This marker was there, and somebody tore it down years ago. And I took my sons to see it with my mother, and this is his tombstone, which is kind of cool. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And, uh, so somebody tore this down, and then, so this-- It was amazing, this summer, last summer past, they finally-- that's my family reunion, right? This picture right here, that's my sister and aunt. They finally built this thing. Look how small they look. Over a 10-foot statue of Green Flake now is in the, the historic park, um, Heritage Park of Salt Lake City, Utah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's got this oversized statue of Green is finally made the, besides the footnote. But anyway, that was just in July I think they commemorated that statue. So that's part of what gives Jackson strength. Visintainer: Yes. Jackson: You know, is knowing that you have a, you know, a big history with this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Are we over time? Visintainer: Uh, we-- we we're actually almost out of [camera] battery strength. We've talked for a while, so I think it's as good a place of any is to end the interview. I actually have so many more questions for you, but-- Jackson: That's all right. Visintainer: We'll run out of, we're run out of battery so-- Jackson: That's okay. It was fun to talk. Visintainer: It is a real pleasure to have you-- Jackson: Be hoarse the rest of the day. Visintainer: Yeah. It's a pleasure to have you visit us and-- Jackson: Yeah, well thanks for inviting me to recall some good things and, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: There were no real flashbacks, you know? Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: It can happen though. Every now and then, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Oh man. Visintainer: Well, thank you again. Jackson: Okay. Hopefully that was-- Visintainer: I'm gonna go ahead and end the interview. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JacksonAnthony_VisintainerSean_2023-03-07_access.xml JacksonAnthony_VisintainerSean_2023-03-07_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jackson, Anthony. Interview March 7, 2023. Description An account of the resource Major General Anthony L. Jackson retired from the United States Marine Corps on January 1st, 2012, after more than thirty-six years of service. After retiring form the Marine Corps, he served as the Director, California State Parks and Recreation from November 2012 through June, 2014. Major General Jackson has also served as the Chairman of the California State University, San Marcos, Foundation Board of Directors. In his interview, Jackson discusses his upbringing in a military family, including participating in a sit-in in a local drug store, and offers a comparison between his military service and that of his father, who served in the United States Army. Jackson discusses life on military bases and support systems for deployed soldiers. Jackson recounts the courtship of his future wife, Sue, their early relationship, and the experience of being in an interracial relationship in the 1970s. Jackson discusses his later career with the Marines, including serving as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT, where he helped make the case for the military to purchase Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs) during the second Iraq war, and working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, AFRICOM. Jackson also discusses finishing his military career by returning to Camp Pendleton and other western U.S. bases as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West). Jackson also discusses his time working for California State Parks, his relationship with Cal State San Marcos, and his family lineage, which includes the enslaved wagon driver Green Flash, who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-32 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Civil rights demonstrations Iraq War, 2003-2011 Military families Mormon Church Piracy -- Indian Ocean Racism United States. Africa Command United States. Marine Corps Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-07 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anthony L. Jackson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Houston (Tex.) Indian Ocean Oakland (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Stuttgart (Germany); Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived SC027 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Anthony L. Jackson Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Seth Stanley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Arely Ramos OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RamosArely_StanleySeth_2023-04-14.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Ramos, Arely. Interview April 15, 2023 SC027-42 00:47:18 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Child care services Human rights California State University San Marcos. Civility Campaign San Marcos (Calif.) Chula Vista Elementary School District (Chula Vista, Calif.) Chula Vista (Calif.) Arely Ramos Seth Stanley Video RamosArely_StanleySeth_2023-04-15 1:|20(7)|34(4)|58(13)|72(3)|90(16)|105(17)|123(2)|141(15)|160(11)|175(10)|187(14)|200(3)|221(13)|235(5)|254(3)|271(5)|284(14)|297(13)|313(4)|329(14)|350(17)|364(11)|378(11)|398(10)|411(6)|437(14)|452(4)|466(14)|477(10)|490(13)|505(3)|523(17)|538(3)|555(16)|566(10)|583(11)|598(11)|616(4)|626(11)|643(3)|659(4)|677(13)|688(15)|707(15)|723(11)|744(12)|754(7)|764(3) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/270e334876fd89f8a73a5766cff99dcc.mp4 Other video english 0 Interview Introduction Seth Stanley is interviewing Arely Ramos. 0 20 Ramos' Inspiration Becoming a Social Worker Ramos explains how her experience working in outreach and at health centers made her realize she wanted to do more for her community. Ramos' sister also played a major role in her aspirations in becoming a social worker. These experiences made Ramos pursue an education in social work and she has loved it ever since. Medi-Cal ; Family health Center of San Diego ; Social Worker 0 260 Ramos' Day to Day Tasks Ramos explains her day to day tasks as a social worker. She works with foster youth, homeless families and the parents of the youth who may have food or financial insecurities. She counsels students, provides tangibles, and communicates with the county and school's staff to ease the social and emotional burdens of the students so they can excel academically. foster youth ; Chula Vista School District ; Homeless ; McKinney Vento 0 438 Starting at the Cross-Cultural Center/ Civility Campaign Ramos describes what the Cross-Cultural Center looked like when she first started and how it changed when it moved to the Student Union. She explains how the practice of Social Justice and making a change for the community is what drew her to the CCC. Ramos helped create the Civility Campaign and was given full jurisdiction over the activities for the campaign. She helped create a safe space for students and a place for difficult conversations amongst a great diversity of students. Civility Campaign ; Social Justice ; change ; Cross-Cultural Center ; creativity ; student leadership ; workshops 0 1008 Inclusivity Ramos explains the challenges she faced as the center was often perceived as a space for a specific group of students. She explains how she helped increase the representation for various groups and how she helped make it a center of inclusitivioty for all. Since the CCC had such supportive staff and leadership she felt like this challenge made her grow as an individual. inclusitivioty ; challenges ; Asian Pacific Islanders ; Latin x ; Latino ; Pride Center 0 1232 Peer Mentoring Program/Favorite Memory Ramos explains how the Peer Mentoring program helped students not only academically but created a place for vulnerability and a sense of belonging on campus. Her favorite aspect about the Cross-Cultural Center is how it felt like a second home and how various programs started working together. vulnerablity ; belonging ; civility campaign ; mentor 0 1615 How CCC Helped Ramos Grow Professionally, Academically, and Socially The CCC helped Ramos learn how to create agendas, manage a team, lead events and take on tasks that would be beneficial to her in her career. It helped her feel supported academically and feel encouraged as she pursued her higher education. The CCC also allowed her to be vulnerable and learn how to advocate for others and to make a change. collaboration ; leading ; managing ; Social Justice ; vulnerability 0 2133 How The CCC has Grown and Can Grow Ramos explains how the CCC has become more structured in terms of their focus, exposure and resources. She explains how she hopes the CCC will start to partner up with communities and organizations to provide exposure outside of the university. This will provide students with the realization that they actually can make a difference and give back to their community. giving back ; community ; impact ; resources 0 2472 How the CCC Can Coexist With Centers Ramos explains how the center must not be viewed as a space only for a specific community but as a center that provides inclusitivioty for all. She explains the importance of centers that have specific identities but that the CCC must help centers collaborate and intermix at times. inclusitivioty 0 Video Arely Ramos is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Human Development, Health Services. Ramos worked at the Cross-Cultural Center and was also involved in the Peer Mentoring Program and Civility Campaign on campus. In this interview, Ramos discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center became her second home and how she loved spending most her time at the center. Ramos explains how it pushed her out of her comfort zone and provided her with a safe space to practice presenting and managing a team. The time spent at the center provided her with tools and connections she would use until today. Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley, and today I'm interviewing Arely Ramos for the California State University San Marcos Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 15th, 2023, and this interview is taking place via Zoom. Hi Arely. Arely Ramos: Hi Seth. (both talking) Stanley: Thank you for being here. Hi. Ramos: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Stanley: I guess to start, we'll just start easy here and just say, can you tell us a bit about your background and how it led you to becoming a social worker? Ramos: Sure. I definitely think it really started when I was a student at San Marcos. I think when I first became employed at the Cross-Cultural Center it really wanted me--I think I just really, I loved it there, and I think it just really exposed me to a lot of different populations and just wanting to help people. And so my sister actually was also a big influence of me, of why I wanted to be a social worker. So after that, after graduating from San Marcos, I did become employed with Family Health Centers of San Diego. And I did a lot of outreach there. So I did a lot of outreach in downtown San Diego where I was able to help support communities and try to get them connected to Medi-Cal services and health services. And then I just felt like I wanted to do more. I was like, I need to get out there a little bit more and support, you know, the community and anyone that I can. So I went back to get my master's degree at San Diego State University where I was a Title IV-E recipient (provides two years of support for full-time students who complete a Master’s in Social Work program). So I was able to get I guess like a scholarship to work for the county for child welfare services. So that kind of led me there. And then I was an intern there and I--I was an intern with Child Welfare Services, and then I was employed there for about a year. And then I, there was just a huge need working with our foster families. I loved it, but, you know, the caseload is, it's a tough job (both laugh), and so I kind of wanted to work with the kiddos more one-on-one. And so that kind of led me to where I'm at now, where I'm a district social worker for, actually my own childhood Chula Vista Elementary School district. Stanley: Oh. Ramos: So I'm able to work with foster students and McKinney-Vento students, so families who identify as being homeless, where I provide case management and counseling services. So I love my job and I love social work. I think just how broad the field is. I just wanna help others. And so that's kind of how my journey led me to social work. Stanley: That's really awesome. That's really cool that you got to go back to your school there. Ramos: Yeah. Stanley: And help people there. (both talking) Ramos: Yeah. Stanley: That's, that's a dream of mine as well. You said that your sister influenced a lot of your, your going into social work. Could you tell me about that? Ramos: Yeah. I think, you know, we are both very similar in, you know, what we like and just, you know, social justice. And I think when I first became employed at the Cross-Cultural Center, my sister was like, “Oh my gosh, go for it.” Like, “That's such an awesome job.” And I think she really pushed me towards that area of social justice and, you know, standing up for others. So she was actually in Title 4-E, the same program that I was at, but at (Cal State) San Marcos. And so she's the one who told me about child welfare services and you know, I learned a lot from her. And so I think--we both were in the same field, and I think it's really awesome to have a family member who understands the field. And so she definitely inspired me to continue that route. And it was just great to have her because we both know, you know, the trauma that comes with it, the secondary trauma we're exposed to, and so it was a big influence. Stanley: Yeah. That's, that's really great. You, you work as a district social worker now you said you, you talked about it a little, but could you tell me what you do on a day-to-day basis? Ramos: Yeah, so I'm smiling 'cause I love my job (both laugh). But I think I just, I always knew I wanted to come back to this job because when I was an intern in grad school, my first-year placement was with the district, the Chula Vista Elementary School District. Stanley: Uh-hmm. Ramos: And I didn't know that a program like this existed. So I think just coming back to it now, I'm, I'm so happy about it. And, you know, a little bit more of the day-to-day is it--it changes. It really just depends on what goes on, what families we work with. But a typical day, you know, I would have to do counseling sessions with some of my students. And again, I only work with foster youth students and McKinney Vento. So students who identify as being homeless, it can be like living in their car, living with another relative in motel, hotel, shelters, or, you know, on the streets. Stanley: Uh-hmm. Ramos: And so really I provide that support for the students with counseling, but I also do case management with the parents. And so that means referring them out to resources out in the community. Like if I can get them motel vouchers or, you know, tangibles, like sleeping bags or a little crock pot or something that they can cook in, gift cards for food, sweaters, underwear, hygiene products. So it really just depends day by day, because sometimes our database doesn't capture the families when they register at the school district. And so what happens is I really have to work close with the schools. So I'm assigned about six schools in our district. Stanley: Wow! Ramos: Yeah, it's a lot. So there's about fifty schools in our, in our district. It's probably one of the largest in California, but there's a, there's a team of now eight of us. And so we each have about six to seven schools to us assigned. And again, the same populations, but we really just try to support the families because we know if students are not doing well socially and emotionally, they're not gonna do well academically. So we're trying to remove those barriers and really trying to support them in that way, so that they can focus and so that we know we can communicate with the school staff and let them know what's going on. Even providing them bus passes or transportation. We really just want the best for our kiddos. So yeah, that’s a little bit about my day-to-day and I know I actually do have an intern from (Cal State) San Marcos, so I love that. It's kind of like a whole circle (laughs), so it's, it's really awesome. Stanley: Well, that's really great that you're helping out people. That's incredible. If you don't mind me asking, which, which school district is it? Ramos: Chula Vista Elementary School District. Oh, yeah. So my hometown (both laugh). Yeah. Stanley: Going back to your time at CSUSM (California State University San Marcos), you, you had a variety of positions at the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center). Could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Ramos: Yeah, I remember oh boy, I remember it. Being located at a different section of CSUSM, so I think now where it's at the Student Union, it wasn't there when I had started. It was a little bit I don't even know the names of the buildings, but (laughs), it was a little bit higher up. I don't know what, what it was called. But- (both talking) Stanley: I know at one point it was at Craven and at what point it was, I think at University Hall, I think? Ramos: I think it might've been Craven. Oh, I'm so sorry. I forgot where honestl-- (both talking) Stanley: It's all good. Ramos: But I just remember there being like a big red couch (both laugh), and I remember, I remember we were in transition to getting it moved to the Student Union. And so I thought it was really cool that I got to experience it being there with a big famous red couch (laughs) because we were transitioning everything over to the other office. So I was there for a little bit, but I really was there when it got transitioned to the Student Union. And it was a lot more modernized. You know, our red couch wasn't there anymore, but it was still, it was still home to a lot of the students and to myself. So I thought that was a really cool experience. And I loved the Cross-Cultural Center. I was there every day. Even if I didn't work, if I didn't have a shift (laughs). Stanley: That is, that's so funny. I keep hearing about these red couches (both laugh). Ramos: Yeah. It's famous. I, we should have taken a picture and framed it in the Student Union because it was, it was a comfy couch. Stanley: Alright, moving on. What motivated you to apply for positions at the Cross-Cultural Center, and what positions did you hold during your time there? Ramos: I think what motivated me, motivated me to apply was just that social justice aspect. Like, I wanted to be a part of something that I could potentially you know, really give to the university. Like as far as creating workshops or I guess just sharing my lens and trying to really create something that maybe was still being developed. Because we didn't really have a full on established, I mean, it was in the making. 'Cause I think (California State University) San Marcos was still developing as a whole as a university, so I just wanted to be a part of something that I can try to help develop. And so I know when I was there, one of the big roles that I had was the Civility Campaign. It was like my baby, because (laugh), you know, there, it wasn't really, there wasn't really a, a huge foundation I think when I had started. So it was really just trying to create something with Floyd (Lai), which was the director and still is the director. But he, he really allowed me to be creative and kind of, you know, go with what I kind of envisioned for the Civility Campaign. So a lot of that was having like monthly, cultural, I don't even know how to say it. Just a lot of different cultural activities or events related to that month. So like Women's Herstory Month, Black History Month, Latino Heritage Month. So it was just a lot of those tough conversations that we tend to shy away from as students where like, we don't really wanna be involved in something that can create that tension or that people don't wanna talk about. And so I try to make it fun, but also have having that difficult conversation to have. And I remember one of the, the biggest events that I did have was it was a Civility Campaign, but I don't remember the name. I'm so sorry, my memory is so bad (Stanley Laughs). But it was, we did an event where we created booths. So we had, at each booth we had an activity. And so we, you know, one of the, one of the things was having the couches there and like picking from the fishbowls and kind of creating questions, difficult questions about how people identify or, you know, what their thoughts were on specific situations. And so, it really opened that dialogue with students to just kind of get out there and really just talk to people you haven't met before, but also learn about their own story and their, their upbringing. Stanley: Well, I actually was gonna ask you about the Civility Campaign, so I'm glad you brought it up. Ramos: Yeah. Stanley: Would you would you mind talking about it a little more, like describing what, what the, what it was all about and what your role was in it? Ramos: Sure. So I, again, I think, you know, because it was so, it was still being created. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: There wasn't really a huge foundation to it. So I think we were just trying to create it with Floyd (Lai), with Student Leadership. We were really just trying to create those workshops and dialogues again, like I mentioned where we could have students have a safe space to talk about things that, you know, might be--create tension in the world. And so I think at that time we were really just trying to create that safe space for students and to have that dialogue where there is support and they can have a center to go to. And so I think the Civility Campaign really brought a lot of students together with the events that we would have. There was so many volunteers, and I thought it was so awesome because it was a brand new--and we had these bright green shirts. I think now the color is baby blue, so it's a little more neutral (both laugh). But I remember just like, if you saw the bright green, you're like, okay, that's Civility. That's a Civility Campaign. Or, you know, that might be an event through the Civility Campaign. So it, I think it was just a really cool opportunity to bring out different discussions revolving around social justice and what was going on at the time with, you know, everything so (laughs), I think it just really gave us an opportunity to create something new. And I think now they have workshops at the Cross-Cultural Center where the students can come in and there's different presenters, kind of like the little TED Talks. And so I thought that was really cool to see it grow. Stanley: Uh-hmm. That's, that's great. And I, I like that you were able to be a part of that. Ramos: Yeah, it was, it was definitely fun (both laugh). Stanley: Could you, could you tell me about your different positions at the Cross-Cultural Center and how your responsibilities may have changed depending on the roles? Ramos: Yeah. I think, oh, I don't even remember my first one, but I just remember being very involved with the Civility Campaign and kind of creating those events every month. But I also, you know, just the typical day at the Cross-Cultural Center like the, when I wasn't trying to plan events--I think at the Cross-Cultural Center, it was really just a space for me to welcome in new students. So, you know, being at the front desk, welcoming new students, talking to them about what the center was and you know, that this was a safe space for them to be at. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: And so I think, you know, there was a lot of, I think at the time we were trying to get a lot of different kind of populations coming into the center because a lot of the students felt like, “Oh, you know, it's only this group that is allowed in here.” And we were like, “No, it's for everyone.” Like, “I know there's only one population that you may see daily here, but everybody's welcomed and just really trying to create friendships with strangers or, you know, students we haven't met.” And I think that was one of the important roles that we had being like the (Ramos makes air quotations) receptionist, I guess you can say at the Cross-Cultural Center. I remember it being very known for like, “Oh, I heard this center, you can print for free here for like essays.” And I was like, “Oh, that's not what, it's just about” (both laugh), you know? So I think just really trying to have those conversations with students and letting them know, it's more than just a place where you can print. And so we really, I think my role was really just to create that safe space for students and to really welcome them there at the center. And introducing them to other students. I know sometimes we would have students come in a lot, but to study or even just hang out on the couches were, which weren't as comfy as the red couches, but (Stanley laughs) they would hang out in there and we would really try our best to feel everybody, make everyone feel welcomed, whoever came in. Stanley: That's, yeah. That's good. What was I gonna say? Oh, yeah. You mentioned that people thought that it was for one group of people. Who were the people coming in most commonly to the Cross-Cultural Center during your time there? Ramos: Yeah, I think it was--I would wanna say there was a lot of you know, people who identify as being a part of the Asian community at the time. And so I think we--different groups from like Greek Life who were a part of different, sororities or fraternities would come in. And we really wanted to make sure people didn't think, those are the only people who are welcomed here. And I think we were really trying to take that, like, stigma away from our students. And so I think we, I think we did a great job. But, you know, we wanted--we didn't want people to be like, “Okay, you guys can't hang out here anymore.” Like, we're trying to get other people in here. No. It wasn't like that at all. I think we really just try to welcome anyone there. And I think one of my things that I really enjoyed as part of the Civility Campaign was the volunteers that we would have, I would try to , bring them in (both laugh) and kind of just hang out there so that people can see that there's a lot more than what is being seen and represented at the moment. And so I think, I think that was so important, especially because at that time there was also the Latino Center (Latin /x Center) and the LGBTQ Center (Pride Center) that was down the hall. And so we didn't want it to make it seem like, okay, only if you identify as those populations or ethnicities, like those are the only people allowed there. I think it was much more than that. And we were really trying to get that point across, especially the Cross-Cultural Center. You know, we really wanted to expose any type of student in there. They didn't have to identify a certain way or anything at all. So we really just wanted to open that space for anyone who needed the support or the safe space. Stanley: Yeah. Just all about inclusivity, right? Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: Let's see here. What was a, what was a challenging aspect of your work at the CCC and how did you navigate it? Ramos: I don't know if I ever really feel challenged except for what I just explained right now (both talking). Stanley: Oh that's good. Ramos: Just to make it more inclusive, but I think I had a lot of support from Floyd and just the staff that were there. I don't think I ever really felt negatively challenged. I would say, it's more in a positive way where it helped me develop, like as a person and my own professional development, because we were tasked to sometimes run our team meetings. And sometimes that would make me feel uncomfortable but I'm so grateful for it now (both laugh) because I think that that helped me a lot and built that confidence. And so I don't think I've ever felt negatively challenged. I think it was more of that positive outlook. Because again, like I said, a lot of the students there felt the Cross-Cultural Center was only for a specific type of group where we didn't want that. So I think for me, that might've felt in that challenge in that sense, where I felt like, oh, I have this responsibility. I want people to go in there and feel inclusive. I don't want anybody to feel left out or out, or I want them to use the center. You know, just for those open discussions and dialogues and yeah. Stanley: Yeah. So just getting the message out there (laughs). Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: I know during your time at the CCC, there was the Peer Mentoring Program going on-- Ramos: Oh yes! Stanley: Could you tell me about that? Ramos: I love the Peer Mentoring Program! Yes. Oh, I love the Peer Mentoring Program. I think it was so important and I think--I think it was just a great opportunity to mentor those incoming students. I know I was a peer mentor, I had amazing mentees and I loved them so much and I still connect with them. I try to--I haven't in a while, but I still see them, like on social media. I think that's the new norm, right? (laughs) Just seeing them on social media. But no, I think the Peer Mentoring Program was so great, and I think it was just you know, being paired up, paired up with a mentee we were able to kind of help them and guide them throughout their time at San Marcos. So it was a lot of first-year students that we mentored and really just trying to get them involved. I know for all of my mentees, I would ask them like, can you help volunteer with the Civility Campaign? And (Stanley laughs) they all would. So like (laughs), you know, I thought that was such a great opportunity for them because I do feel they were able to meet other students. But even with the Peer Mentoring Program itself, it was just a big family. And I think we all grew so comfortable with each other and just trying to guide them with like, not only their academics, but I think just having those relationships with other people at the school, because a lot of them were either commuting or living away from home. And so San Marcos was our second home. That's where we would spend all of our day at (laughs). And so I think just creating that safety for them and creating the, you know, getting them to know, getting them to feel comfortable enough to get involved at school. 'Cause It can feel lonely, especially if it's your first time and you don't know what you're doing at a university. I know that's how I felt. I was like, “Oh my gosh, what am I doing here?” Like, “I don't even know what I wanna do with my life.” And so, I think just being really open with our mentees and allowing them to feel vulnerable was so important because they are--it's so important just to kind of keep students hopeful and let them know that they do belong here. Because a lot of the times it can feel like they don't. And I think that was so important a part of the program is just having them feel comfortable and also teaching them study tricks or having them feel--like teaching them time management or how they can schedule their day. And so it could be simple things like that, but I think it was much more than that. I think just having that consistent person in their life is so important because it allows them to feel like they belong. Stanley: You mentioned directing your mentees towards the Civility Campaign. Ramos: Yeah (laughs). Stanley: Were, were there, were there any ways, other ways the mentor program helped? Im--impacted your experiences at the Cross-Cultural Center? Ramos: I'm sorry, can you repeat that one more time? Stanley: Were there any other ways that your experiences with the peer mentoring program impacted your experiences with the CCC? Ramos: I mean, they (peer mentors) would hang out at the center. I know that (laughs), I know they would use that space to come in and just hang out. And I think they really created a lot. They also brought in--I think the more comfortable they felt and were engaged and met other students, they would also bring them into the center. So I think that was impactful because they brought in different groups that weren't necessarily always at the center. And so I thought that was really cool to see for them, because they, at first they were really shy and then they started to really blossom (both laugh) and just bring in other students. So, and it was different students who were involved with other, with different organizations on campus. So I thought it was really nice to see that. And kind of make, it also helped the center grow because we were bringing in like our mentees and people from that program to be there at the center and to attend our events. And so I thought that was really important and it really helped the Cross-Cultural Center grow. In that aspect. Stanley: Yeah. Two, two programs working together. That's nice. Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: My timeline’s, I don't, I'm not sure if the timeline’s--but was Jenny Ruiz the, the person running it at the time? Ramos: The Civility Campaign? Stanley: No. The Peer Mentoring Program? Ramos: I don't think so. I think it was Floyd. Stanley: Oh, okay. Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: Let's see here. What is, what's your favorite memory from the CCC? Ramos: Oh, I don't even know. I can't have a favorite memory. I think all of them were, I think all of it. I don't have a specific favorite. I think it's just a, I just--my memory as a whole is the Cross-Cultural Center because it, you know, the Peer Mentoring came out of that, the Civility Campaign came out of that. And so I think it was just all my favorite. Like, I just can't stop smiling because I just, I'm thinking about my time there and I had the best time there. It was my favorite. It was definitely my second home. 'Cause I am, I'm from Chula Vista, which is probably like forty-five minutes, an hour, not even far. So I'm just being a baby (Stanley laughs). But I think it was just really, it was my home. I really loved the Cross-Cultural Center. I still do, but (both laugh) at the time it was, it was so fun. I think I--it was just a really great experience. And when I think about my time at CSUSM, that's what I think about is just my time at the Cross-Cultural Center and the programs that came out of it. Stanley: Lemme ask, did your experiences working at the CCC, did they help you professionally? Or in what ways would they have helped you professionally? Ramos: Yes, definitely. I think I mentioned a little earlier where I remember Floyd would make us run meetings sometimes during our team meetings. And I remember feeling so anxious and being like, “Oh, I don't wanna run a meeting.” But I think it definitely helped me professionally because I-- we're not—at least growing up, you know, I come from a low income community and we're not exposed to that. We're, we don't have those expectations. And so I think the Cross-Cultural Center really helped me kind of get my feet wet (Both laugh). And so, I think even just as simple as running meetings, people are like, “Oh, that's not even that bad.” Like, you know, creating an agenda or running a 30-minute, hour meeting. But to me it was like, “Oh my gosh, I can't do this.” Or you know, I, I had so much anxiety. But I think the more he rotated us to lead those meetings it really exposed us to that kind of professional development. And so I think that really helped me a lot. And I think even just the Civility Campaign, like being in charge of making those events, that was huge for me because I've never done anything like that. It was really, it was challenging, but in a good way. Because it really helped me grow. And I think, you know, even just the computer tech stuff or creating programs, collaborating with other staff members who were part of the student leadership program, I had never done really those type of collaborations. So it really, I think that's where he (Floyd Lai) really planted a seed for me because I think a lot of what I do now helped me, or I guess a lot of what I did then helped me now because now I'm like collaborating with teachers and attorneys and different social workers. And so that collaboration piece was so helpful for me even to today, because I think that was really my steppingstone. And when you do go out into your career, you're exposed to all of that. And I think he (Lai) really helped me grow in that way. Which I'm forever grateful for (laughs). Yeah. Stanley: In a, in a sort of different way. How did the CCC help you academically, in your academic career? Ramos: I definitely think--I think just, you know, Floyd's support as well. I think he really accepted me for like, everything that I was (both laugh) and so--I think just he really, he really took the time to listen to us. And if, if we weren't doing well academically, like I did feel comfortable letting him know, you know, it wasn't the best time for me. I know I had a hard time academically. And I know I had to take a step back away from working at the center because the center, it was my whole life. And so like the Civility (Campaign) kind of took over and I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I'm here for, to get a degree. Not to, you know--that was my priority, but I think I forgot that at one point while working at the center. And so I really had to take a step back. And I remember not being employed. I think I took a break, and then I returned after-- Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: --to work back at the Cross-Cultural Center. But Floyd was always so supportive during that time. And I think even the friendships that I had there. That I created when I was at the center helped me academically in so many ways because you know, I didn't, I--a lot of us would never think, especially for my community, we're not really super encouraged to go to higher education. And my family is so supportive, so of course they were. But I think the expectations of us in communities like mine, we’re not expected to go and pursue higher education. And so that transition was so hard for me. And I did struggle academically. I'm horrible at tests, even to this day. I'm not a good test taker (both laugh). I like writing. But no, it was a, it was a struggle. But I think just having those consistent people in my life like Floyd and the friendships that I had at the Cross-Cultural Center really helped me academically. Stanley: You mentioned, well, okay, you just said you were formed a lot of relationships through the CCC. Are there any, any friendships or, or yeah. Any friendships that you still keep in contact with today? Ramos: I do. Yes. I haven't in a while. Like I mentioned my mentees, I, I need to reach out to them. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: But I still have connections with them through social media, but it's just comments here and there. But I, they're still so important in my life. And even my roommates--I lived at oh my gosh, is it the UVA (University Village Apartments), I don't know if they still call it that, but-- Stanley: Yeah. Ramos: They’re the dorms room. I met my roommates there and I also pulled them into the Civility Campaign. So (both laugh), I just--anybody I knew, I was like, “Hey, do you wanna volunteer?” So, my roommates were also part of that. But yes, I definitely still keep in contact with my roommates. I actually just saw one of them a couple weeks ago. So it's awesome because you, not just the peers, but I think Floyd, he's--even if I don't talk to him every month or year, I know he is always there and he always writes my letter of recommendation (both laugh). So, so that's always a great thing. We've, he's kind of like followed my journey, which is really cool to look back on. And, you know, he's always been there for those life-changing career moves or, you know, just anything, I know I can always have him to lean on. And we actually share the same birthday, so we always, “Happy birthday!” on our birthdays, so yes, definitely still have those relationships. Stanley: Well, that's really nice. I like that you keep in touch with people even after all this time (laughs). Ramos: Yeah. Yeah. Stanley: The CCC and looks like the, it sounds like the Civility Campaign was a big part of your time at the CCC. How did these, how did the CCC and the Civility Campaign help you understand, well shape your understanding of social justice and advocacy? Ramos: I think in a lot of ways. It really, even for myself, I know I kept saying, it helped create that dialogue where like a lot of students may have felt like it was, there was a lot of tension. I think it really helped me be okay with having those discussions because that's how we grow and how we support the movement of social justice. And so I think for me at the time--oh, I'm so sorry. I keep blanking out on the names, but I know there, I think it was a social justice retreat that the Cross-Cultural Center had or hosted. And I think that one really moved me deeply because it was the first time I really allowed myself to be vulnerable and like even talk about, my own trauma. And so I think I think it really just helped me wanna advocate more for others because I know like what I've experienced you know, there's others who have stories and who are going through a hard time. And so I think just really trying to gain that lens to try to support others. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: And I feel like it's helped me to this day because I'm exposed to that every day where, you know, the institutions and stuff are not always on our side. And so (both laugh) and you know, there's just this whole systematic injustice for our families and I see it every day. And so I think it really helped me to, it led me to where I am today which is what I love, what I'm doing right now (both laugh). But I, it's definitely helped me and, and it really guided me towards this path. Stanley: Would you say that the CCC’s approach to diversity inclusion has changed over time? Or has it, or has it more remained the same over time? What would you say? Ramos: I think it has changed, but for the better. I think having those--I know I follow them on social media (laughs), so I see--I keep referencing social media 'cause it's such a big part of our lives now, but I definitely feel like the workshops that I see, and I can't even think of one off the top of my head, but I know they host those, at the Cross-Cultural Center. And I think that's so we--I don't think it was as structured as it is now. And I think that's so cool to see it grow, because I think during my time at least, we were still in the developing stages of like, “Okay, what do we want the Cross-Cultural Center to be?” And so I think now it's like they have it all laid out. And, I think we were just at that when I was a part of the Cross-Cultural Center, that was still being developed. Like, “What is the program gonna look like? What are we gonna offer students and staff?” And so I think now to look back and kind of scroll past and I'm like, “Oh, that's so cool.” Like, you know, “They have these programs” like, “Oh, they have shirts.” And I was like, I remember laughing and being like, “Oh my God.” I remember always telling Floyd, “I want uniform shirts at the Cross-Cultural Center” (both laugh) to support the Cross-Cultural Center. And I see that the staff have that now. And I'm like, “Oh, that's so cool.” Like, just seeing how much it's developed over the years and how much how many, how many students are getting exposed to that. I think is so cool to see. And just to watch the center grow is awesome. Stanley: And I think a good follow up to this would be how do you envision the Cross-Cultural Center continuing to evolve and grow in the future? What role do you see it playing as it coexists with the expansion of identity specific spaces? Ramos: Ooh. Okay. Can you repeat the, can I take one question at a time? Can you repeat the first one? Stanley: That's fine. Yeah. Yeah (both laugh). How do you envision the CCC continuing to evolve and grow in the future? Ramos: Oh, I think I would love for it to partner up with community agencies or organizations. I think that'd be so cool to see because there is--you know, I know it's very student focused but I think if we can get the students out into the community, and I know they do like the Ceasar Chavez Day there at the center where they go, they have students come out and help out too. But I think if we can connect the center to outside agencies and to support kind of bringing it back to the students' youth. 'Cause I think that's where a lot of the times, you know--in the work that I am in now, trauma really impacts where people are led to. And I think if we can get, if we can do, early prevention work, I think that would be awesome. And what I mean by that is, I think having students be out in the community or helping organizations, it could really help them a lot. Because I think they get to see that change and it's like, “Wow, what I'm doing can really impact youth or, you know, people who may have experienced the same stuff that I have.” But even like fundraising or something for students, and my mind keeps going to foster youth and homelessness because that's where I'm working at right now. The pop--but I think there's a broader population that the students can work with or the center can work with. But I just feel like everybody needs support. And I think--yeah I don't, I really don't know how to wrap this around, but I just, I don't even know what I'm saying, but I think, I don't even know (Stanley laughs). I just lost myself in what I was saying. Stanley: It's all good. Ramos: I just think the, there's so much potential for the Cross-Cultural Center and it has grown already so much. So I think the work that they're doing, if they can invite even the outside, like the public or I don't know anything. 'Cause they, they offer so many cool things and there's so many speakers that come up and when you go to those events and attend them yourself, you're just, you feel so empowered and you're like, “Okay, what's next? What do I do?” And so I feel like, I think that's the aspect that I'm trying to connect with the communities. If we can, because a lot of the times--when I know the Social Justice summit that I went to, I remember feeling so empowered and being like, “What do I do? What can I do? Who can I help?” Like where can I use, where can somebody use me in a good way for the community? And so you're left with like, “Okay, what's next?” And so I think that next step would be like, okay, let's let's get them out there. Let's help them support the community or some agency in some way. I think would be really cool to see, because you do have that adrenaline when you've learned that, you know new terms or social justice stuff, you kind of get excited, but you're like, what do I do with all this energy (both laugh)? So, that would be cool to see. I hope that made sense. I'm just rambling (laughs). Stanley: It did, it did. I really love your enthusiasm about, about the Cross-Cultural Center and that was definitely one of the more unique answers I've gotten to that question. So thank you much. Ramos: Okay (both laugh). Oh my God, that didn't make sense. I'm trying to tie it back together. Stanley: And the, the follow up to that question is what, what role do you see the CCC playing as it coexists with the identity specific spaces? Ramos: Oh do you mean spaces at the, at the ce--like at the Student Union? Stanley: Yeah. Spaces such as the Black Student Center, the Latin /x Center, LGBTQ+ Center. Yes. Ramos: I think, you know, it all comes together. And I think it's--I don't want, I think that's why, you know, earlier when I talked about one of the challenges was people only saw like a certain population coming in. I don't like that at all because I feel we all have experienced some type of challenge with the way we identify with ourselves. And I think having those centers is so important because it creates those safe places for students. But I think they all mesh--they can mesh in some way to like some degree. And I think because, you know, I think--I think it really, I would love to see them all work together. And I think they have in the past. I know we have when I was there. But I don't want people to see it as, you know, like I mentioned earlier, I could only go to the Black student Union if I identify as African American. I think, you know, it is a space for individuals to feel safe at. But I think I would want everyone to feel welcome and inclus--and like included. And I think coexisting with the other spaces is--I mean, it's been happening, it's been going well I think (both laugh). But I think just working more together or , you know, I don't know how it is now. I don't know how the different centers, how they're working together, but I think they can create something so beautiful and create events together where they coexist with each other. And I think that's, yeah, I think I can see that happening. Stanley: So the CCC sort of provides a, a beacon of inclusivity with all these other just sort of like categories (both talking). Ramos: Yeah. Stanley Uh-hmm. Ramos: Yeah. They kind of like intersect in some way, but it is important to identify. It is important to have those centers specific because, I think it allows that safe space for the students, but I think if, I mean, they intersect in some way. Stanley: And this is sort of a, a question I've been asking. Would you, would you be averse to adding maybe an Asian student center or (Ramos laughs) or any other sort of student centers? Ramos: I mean, sure. Yeah. Why not give everyone a center? Yeah. I think it's, I think it's so important because I think there has been a lot of controversy that where people are like, I don't think, I don't agree with, you know, the Latin( /x) Center having a Latin( /x) Center or Black Student Center or LGBTQ. But I think it's important to lay out, the different types of I don't even know the word. I think it's just important to, to realize, we have those centers for a reason. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: And it's because of the experiences that those populations have experienced. Not saying like nobody else has. But I think you know, especially just going back to going back to everything that those certain populations have experienced, they do, it is important to have those spaces because of what was experienced with those populations. And I think yeah, I think--I don't think we should take that away (laughs). And I think that there was a lot of controversy of that at first where it's like, “Oh, well you guys are secluding,” you know, as much as you wanna be inclusive. Like, you're also separating that. But it's like, no, that's not the point. You know, we need to have those, we have those spaces for a reason. So-- Stanley: Yeah. Like you mentioned before, just it's a safe space for-- Ramos: Yeah. It's a safe space-- (both talking) Stanley: Or you can go to, you know, you to, to feel, you know, 'cause lot of the times you look around, there's not many people that look like you around campus. Ramos: Yeah. Uh-hmm. I think that's so important. Stanley: All right. Well we're wrapping up here. I'll ask one final question and that would be, what advice would you give to current or future students who are interested in getting involved with the CCC? Ramos: Oh. Just go there. Go, go show up. No, I love the Cross-Cultural Center. And I think the advice that I would give is just don't--be open-minded and just really--yeah, I'm already starting off with horrible advice. I think I would just say, I think I would just say to, for them to be open-minded and know that they belong and know that they have that safe space. Because they deserve to be there as much as anybody else does. And they will find a home there. So I think that's (the) advice: is just be open-minded and know that they belong. That the space is for everyone. And it'll open so many doors for them. So I think that's something that I would say, and I would hope they literally go (laughs) and show up to the center. Yeah, I think just being open-minded and knowing that they belong there as much as anybody else does. Stanley: Well, thank you for that. And thank you for coming Arely. Ramos: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I hope I did okay. I feel like redoing the whole interview (both laugh). 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RamosArely_StanleySeth_2023-04-14.xml RamosArely_StanleySeth_2023-04-14.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ramos, Arely. Interview April 15, 2023. Description An account of the resource Arely Ramos is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Human Development, Health Services. Ramos worked at the Cross-Cultural Center and was also involved in the Peer Mentoring Program and Civility Campaign on campus. In this interview, Ramos discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center became her second home and how she loved spending most her time at the center. Ramos explains how it pushed her out of her comfort zone and provided her with a safe space to practice presenting and managing a team. The time spent at the center provided her with tools and connections she would use until today. Ramos also discusses her career in social work at the Chula Vista Elementary School District. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-42 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Civility Campaign California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Child care services Chula Vista Elementary School District (Chula Vista, Calif.) Education, Higher Human rights Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-15 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Arely Ramos Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Chula Vista (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Arely Ramos Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Latine experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5e839af9501fe838b004cf7e4bd526cc.pdf e0f7a19beae2a07e986c52a10770760c PDF Text Text Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley, and today I'm interviewing Arely Ramos for the California State University San Marcos Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 15th, 2023, and this interview is taking place via Zoom. Hi Arely. Arely Ramos: Hi Seth. (both talking) Stanley: Thank you for being here. Hi. Ramos: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Stanley: I guess to start, we'll just start easy here and just say, can you tell us a bit about your background and how it led you to becoming a social worker? Ramos: Sure. I definitely think it really started when I was a student at San Marcos. I think when I first became employed at the Cross-Cultural Center it really wanted me--I think I just really, I loved it there, and I think it just really exposed me to a lot of different populations and just wanting to help people. And so my sister actually was also a big influence of me, of why I wanted to be a social worker. So after that, after graduating from San Marcos, I did become employed with Family Health Centers of San Diego. And I did a lot of outreach there. So I did a lot of outreach in downtown San Diego where I was able to help support communities and try to get them connected to Medi-Cal services and health services. And then I just felt like I wanted to do more. I was like, I need to get out there a little bit more and support, you know, the community and anyone that I can. So I went back to get my master's degree at San Diego State University where I was a Title IVE recipient (provides two years of support for full-time students who complete a Master’s in Social Work program). So I was able to get I guess like a scholarship to work for the county for child welfare services. So that kind of led me there. And then I was an intern there and I--I was an intern with Child Welfare Services, and then I was employed there for about a year. And then I, there was just a huge need working with our foster families. I loved it, but, you know, the caseload is, it's a tough job (both laugh), and so I kind of wanted to work with the kiddos more one-on-one. And so that kind of led me to where I'm at now, where I'm a district social worker for, actually my own childhood Chula Vista Elementary School district. Stanley: Oh. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 1 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Ramos: So I'm able to work with foster students and McKinney-Vento students, so families who identify as being homeless, where I provide case management and counseling services. So I love my job and I love social work. I think just how broad the field is. I just wanna help others. And so that's kind of how my journey led me to social work. Stanley: That's really awesome. That's really cool that you got to go back to your school there. Ramos: Yeah. Stanley: And help people there. (both talking) Ramos: Yeah. Stanley: That's, that's a dream of mine as well. You said that your sister influenced a lot of your, your going into social work. Could you tell me about that? Ramos: Yeah. I think, you know, we are both very similar in, you know, what we like and just, you know, social justice. And I think when I first became employed at the Cross-Cultural Center, my sister was like, “Oh my gosh, go for it.” Like, “That's such an awesome job.” And I think she really pushed me towards that area of social justice and, you know, standing up for others. So she was actually in Title 4-E, the same program that I was at, but at (Cal State) San Marcos. And so she's the one who told me about child welfare services and you know, I learned a lot from her. And so I think--we both were in the same field, and I think it's really awesome to have a family member who understands the field. And so she definitely inspired me to continue that route. And it was just great to have her because we both know, you know, the trauma that comes with it, the secondary trauma we're exposed to, and so it was a big influence. Stanley: Yeah. That's, that's really great. You, you work as a district social worker now you said you, you talked about it a little, but could you tell me what you do on a day-to-day basis? Ramos: Yeah, so I'm smiling 'cause I love my job (both laugh). But I think I just, I always knew I wanted to come back to this job because when I was an intern in grad school, my first-year placement was with the district, the Chula Vista Elementary School District. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 2 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Stanley: Uh-hmm. Ramos: And I didn't know that a program like this existed. So I think just coming back to it now, I'm, I'm so happy about it. And, you know, a little bit more of the day-to-day is it--it changes. It really just depends on what goes on, what families we work with. But a typical day, you know, I would have to do counseling sessions with some of my students. And again, I only work with foster youth students and McKinney Vento. So students who identify as being homeless, it can be like living in their car, living with another relative in motel, hotel, shelters, or, you know, on the streets. Stanley: Uh-hmm. Ramos: And so really I provide that support for the students with counseling, but I also do case management with the parents. And so that means referring them out to resources out in the community. Like if I can get them motel vouchers or, you know, tangibles, like sleeping bags or a little crock pot or something that they can cook in, gift cards for food, sweaters, underwear, hygiene products. So it really just depends day by day, because sometimes our database doesn't capture the families when they register at the school district. And so what happens is I really have to work close with the schools. So I'm assigned about six schools in our district. Stanley: Wow! Ramos: Yeah, it's a lot. So there's about fifty schools in our, in our district. It's probably one of the largest in California, but there's a, there's a team of now eight of us. And so we each have about six to seven schools to us assigned. And again, the same populations, but we really just try to support the families because we know if students are not doing well socially and emotionally, they're not gonna do well academically. So we're trying to remove those barriers and really trying to support them in that way, so that they can focus and so that we know we can communicate with the school staff and let them know what's going on. Even providing them bus passes or transportation. We really just want the best for our kiddos. So yeah, that’s a little bit about my day-to-day and I know I actually do have an intern from (Cal State) San Marcos, so I love that. It's kind of like a whole circle (laughs), so it's, it's really awesome. Stanley: Well, that's really great that you're helping out people. That's incredible. If you don't mind me asking, which, which school district is it? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 3 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Ramos: Chula Vista Elementary School District. Oh, yeah. So my hometown (both laugh). Yeah. Stanley: Going back to your time at CSUSM (California State University San Marcos), you, you had a variety of positions at the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center). Could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Ramos: Yeah, I remember oh boy, I remember it. Being located at a different section of CSUSM, so I think now where it's at the Student Union, it wasn't there when I had started. It was a little bit I don't even know the names of the buildings, but (laughs), it was a little bit higher up. I don't know what, what it was called. But- (both talking) Stanley: I know at one point it was at Craven and at what point it was, I think at University Hall, I think? Ramos: I think it might've been Craven. Oh, I'm so sorry. I forgot where honestl-- (both talking) Stanley: It's all good. Ramos: But I just remember there being like a big red couch (both laugh), and I remember, I remember we were in transition to getting it moved to the Student Union. And so I thought it was really cool that I got to experience it being there with a big famous red couch (laughs) because we were transitioning everything over to the other office. So I was there for a little bit, but I really was there when it got transitioned to the Student Union. And it was a lot more modernized. You know, our red couch wasn't there anymore, but it was still, it was still home to a lot of the students and to myself. So I thought that was a really cool experience. And I loved the Cross-Cultural Center. I was there every day. Even if I didn't work, if I didn't have a shift (laughs). Stanley: That is, that's so funny. I keep hearing about these red couches (both laugh). Ramos: Yeah. It's famous. I, we should have taken a picture and framed it in the Student Union because it was, it was a comfy couch. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 4 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Stanley: Alright, moving on. What motivated you to apply for positions at the Cross-Cultural Center, and what positions did you hold during your time there? Ramos: I think what motivated me, motivated me to apply was just that social justice aspect. Like, I wanted to be a part of something that I could potentially you know, really give to the university. Like as far as creating workshops or I guess just sharing my lens and trying to really create something that maybe was still being developed. Because we didn't really have a full on established, I mean, it was in the making. 'Cause I think (California State University) San Marcos was still developing as a whole as a university, so I just wanted to be a part of something that I can try to help develop. And so I know when I was there, one of the big roles that I had was the Civility Campaign. It was like my baby, because (laugh), you know, there, it wasn't really, there wasn't really a, a huge foundation I think when I had started. So it was really just trying to create something with Floyd (Lai), which was the director and still is the director. But he, he really allowed me to be creative and kind of, you know, go with what I kind of envisioned for the Civility Campaign. So a lot of that was having like monthly, cultural, I don't even know how to say it. Just a lot of different cultural activities or events related to that month. So like Women's Herstory Month, Black History Month, Latino Heritage Month. So it was just a lot of those tough conversations that we tend to shy away from as students where like, we don't really wanna be involved in something that can create that tension or that people don't wanna talk about. And so I try to make it fun, but also have having that difficult conversation to have. And I remember one of the, the biggest events that I did have was it was a Civility Campaign, but I don't remember the name. I'm so sorry, my memory is so bad (Stanley Laughs). But it was, we did an event where we created booths. So we had, at each booth we had an activity. And so we, you know, one of the, one of the things was having the couches there and like picking from the fishbowls and kind of creating questions, difficult questions about how people identify or, you know, what their thoughts were on specific situations. And so, it really opened that dialogue with students to just kind of get out there and really just talk to people you haven't met before, but also learn about their own story and their, their upbringing. Stanley: Well, I actually was gonna ask you about the Civility Campaign, so I'm glad you brought it up. Ramos: Yeah. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 5 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Stanley: Would you would you mind talking about it a little more, like describing what, what the, what it was all about and what your role was in it? Ramos: Sure. So I, again, I think, you know, because it was so, it was still being created. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: There wasn't really a huge foundation to it. So I think we were just trying to create it with Floyd (Lai), with Student Leadership. We were really just trying to create those workshops and dialogues again, like I mentioned where we could have students have a safe space to talk about things that, you know, might be--create tension in the world. And so I think at that time we were really just trying to create that safe space for students and to have that dialogue where there is support and they can have a center to go to. And so I think the Civility Campaign really brought a lot of students together with the events that we would have. There was so many volunteers, and I thought it was so awesome because it was a brand new--and we had these bright green shirts. I think now the color is baby blue, so it's a little more neutral (both laugh). But I remember just like, if you saw the bright green, you're like, okay, that's Civility. That's a Civility Campaign. Or, you know, that might be an event through the Civility Campaign. So it, I think it was just a really cool opportunity to bring out different discussions revolving around social justice and what was going on at the time with, you know, everything so (laughs), I think it just really gave us an opportunity to create something new. And I think now they have workshops at the Cross-Cultural Center where the students can come in and there's different presenters, kind of like the little TED Talks. And so I thought that was really cool to see it grow. Stanley: Uh-hmm. That's, that's great. And I, I like that you were able to be a part of that. Ramos: Yeah, it was, it was definitely fun (both laugh). Stanley: Could you, could you tell me about your different positions at the Cross-Cultural Center and how your responsibilities may have changed depending on the roles? Ramos: Yeah. I think, oh, I don't even remember my first one, but I just remember being very involved with the Civility Campaign and kind of creating those events every month. But I also, you know, just the typical day at the Cross-Cultural Center like the, when I wasn't trying to plan events--I think at the Cross- Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 6 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Cultural Center, it was really just a space for me to welcome in new students. So, you know, being at the front desk, welcoming new students, talking to them about what the center was and you know, that this was a safe space for them to be at. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: And so I think, you know, there was a lot of, I think at the time we were trying to get a lot of different kind of populations coming into the center because a lot of the students felt like, “Oh, you know, it's only this group that is allowed in here.” And we were like, “No, it's for everyone.” Like, “I know there's only one population that you may see daily here, but everybody's welcomed and just really trying to create friendships with strangers or, you know, students we haven't met.” And I think that was one of the important roles that we had being like the (Ramos makes air quotations) receptionist, I guess you can say at the Cross-Cultural Center. I remember it being very known for like, “Oh, I heard this center, you can print for free here for like essays.” And I was like, “Oh, that's not what, it's just about” (both laugh), you know? So I think just really trying to have those conversations with students and letting them know, it's more than just a place where you can print. And so we really, I think my role was really just to create that safe space for students and to really welcome them there at the center. And introducing them to other students. I know sometimes we would have students come in a lot, but to study or even just hang out on the couches were, which weren't as comfy as the red couches, but (Stanley laughs) they would hang out in there and we would really try our best to feel everybody, make everyone feel welcomed, whoever came in. Stanley: That's, yeah. That's good. What was I gonna say? Oh, yeah. You mentioned that people thought that it was for one group of people. Who were the people coming in most commonly to the CrossCultural Center during your time there? Ramos: Yeah, I think it was--I would wanna say there was a lot of you know, people who identify as being a part of the Asian community at the time. And so I think we--different groups from like Greek Life who were a part of different, sororities or fraternities would come in. And we really wanted to make sure people didn't think, those are the only people who are welcomed here. And I think we were really trying to take that, like, stigma away from our students. And so I think we, I think we did a great job. But, you know, we wanted--we didn't want people to be like, “Okay, you guys can't hang out here anymore.” Like, we're trying to get other people in here. No. It wasn't like that at all. I think we really just try to welcome anyone there. And I think one of my things that I really enjoyed as part of the Civility Campaign was the volunteers that we would have, I would try to, bring them in (both laugh) and kind of just hang out there so that people can see that there's a lot more than what is being seen and represented at the moment. And so I think, I Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 7 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 think that was so important, especially because at that time there was also the Latino Center (Latin@/x Center) and the LGBTQ Center (Pride Center) that was down the hall. And so we didn't want it to make it seem like, okay, only if you identify as those populations or ethnicities, like those are the only people allowed there. I think it was much more than that. And we were really trying to get that point across, especially the Cross-Cultural Center. You know, we really wanted to expose any type of student in there. They didn't have to identify a certain way or anything at all. So we really just wanted to open that space for anyone who needed the support or the safe space. Stanley: Yeah. Just all about inclusivity, right? Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: Let's see here. What was a, what was a challenging aspect of your work at the CCC and how did you navigate it? Ramos: I don't know if I ever really feel challenged except for what I just explained right now (both talking). Stanley: Oh that's good. Ramos: Just to make it more inclusive, but I think I had a lot of support from Floyd and just the staff that were there. I don't think I ever really felt negatively challenged. I would say, it's more in a positive way where it helped me develop, like as a person and my own professional development, because we were tasked to sometimes run our team meetings. And sometimes that would make me feel uncomfortable but I'm so grateful for it now (both laugh) because I think that that helped me a lot and built that confidence. And so I don't think I've ever felt negatively challenged. I think it was more of that positive outlook. Because again, like I said, a lot of the students there felt the Cross-Cultural Center was only for a specific type of group where we didn't want that. So I think for me, that might've felt in that challenge in that sense, where I felt like, oh, I have this responsibility. I want people to go in there and feel inclusive. I don't want anybody to feel left out or out, or I want them to use the center. You know, just for those open discussions and dialogues and yeah. Stanley: Yeah. So just getting the message out there (laughs). Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 8 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: I know during your time at the CCC, there was the Peer Mentoring Program going on-- Ramos: Oh yes! Stanley: Could you tell me about that? Ramos: I love the Peer Mentoring Program! Yes. Oh, I love the Peer Mentoring Program. I think it was so important and I think--I think it was just a great opportunity to mentor those incoming students. I know I was a peer mentor, I had amazing mentees and I loved them so much and I still connect with them. I try to--I haven't in a while, but I still see them, like on social media. I think that's the new norm, right? (laughs) Just seeing them on social media. But no, I think the Peer Mentoring Program was so great, and I think it was just you know, being paired up, paired up with a mentee we were able to kind of help them and guide them throughout their time at San Marcos. So it was a lot of first-year students that we mentored and really just trying to get them involved. I know for all of my mentees, I would ask them like, can you help volunteer with the Civility Campaign? And (Stanley laughs) they all would. So like (laughs), you know, I thought that was such a great opportunity for them because I do feel they were able to meet other students. But even with the Peer Mentoring Program itself, it was just a big family. And I think we all grew so comfortable with each other and just trying to guide them with like, not only their academics, but I think just having those relationships with other people at the school, because a lot of them were either commuting or living away from home. And so San Marcos was our second home. That's where we would spend all of our day at (laughs). And so I think just creating that safety for them and creating the, you know, getting them to know, getting them to feel comfortable enough to get involved at school. 'Cause It can feel lonely, especially if it's your first time and you don't know what you're doing at a university. I know that's how I felt. I was like, “Oh my gosh, what am I doing here?” Like, “I don't even know what I wanna do with my life.” And so, I think just being really open with our mentees and allowing them to feel vulnerable was so important because they are--it's so important just to kind of keep students hopeful and let them know that they do belong here. Because a lot of the times it can feel like they don't. And I think that was so important a part of the program is just having them feel comfortable and also teaching them study tricks or having them feel--like teaching them time management or how they can schedule their day. And so it could be simple things like that, but I think it Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 9 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 was much more than that. I think just having that consistent person in their life is so important because it allows them to feel like they belong. Stanley: You mentioned directing your mentees towards the Civility Campaign. Ramos: Yeah (laughs). Stanley: Were, were there, were there any ways, other ways the mentor program helped? Im--impacted your experiences at the Cross-Cultural Center? Ramos: I'm sorry, can you repeat that one more time? Stanley: Were there any other ways that your experiences with the peer mentoring program impacted your experiences with the CCC? Ramos: I mean, they (peer mentors) would hang out at the center. I know that (laughs), I know they would use that space to come in and just hang out. And I think they really created a lot. They also brought in--I think the more comfortable they felt and were engaged and met other students, they would also bring them into the center. So I think that was impactful because they brought in different groups that weren't necessarily always at the center. And so I thought that was really cool to see for them, because they, at first they were really shy and then they started to really blossom (both laugh) and just bring in other students. So, and it was different students who were involved with other, with different organizations on campus. So I thought it was really nice to see that. And kind of make, it also helped the center grow because we were bringing in like our mentees and people from that program to be there at the center and to attend our events. And so I thought that was really important and it really helped the Cross-Cultural Center grow. In that aspect. Stanley: Yeah. Two, two programs working together. That's nice. Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 10 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Stanley: My timeline’s, I don't, I'm not sure if the timeline’s--but was Jenny Ruiz the, the person running it at the time? Ramos: The Civility Campaign? Stanley: No. The Peer Mentoring Program? Ramos: I don't think so. I think it was Floyd. Stanley: Oh, okay. Ramos: Yeah. Um-hmm. Stanley: Let's see here. What is, what's your favorite memory from the CCC? Ramos: Oh, I don't even know. I can't have a favorite memory. I think all of them were, I think all of it. I don't have a specific favorite. I think it's just a, I just--my memory as a whole is the Cross-Cultural Center because it, you know, the Peer Mentoring came out of that, the Civility Campaign came out of that. And so I think it was just all my favorite. Like, I just can't stop smiling because I just, I'm thinking about my time there and I had the best time there. It was my favorite. It was definitely my second home. 'Cause I am, I'm from Chula Vista, which is probably like forty-five minutes, an hour, not even far. So I'm just being a baby (Stanley laughs). But I think it was just really, it was my home. I really loved the CrossCultural Center. I still do, but (both laugh) at the time it was, it was so fun. I think I--it was just a really great experience. And when I think about my time at CSUSM, that's what I think about is just my time at the Cross-Cultural Center and the programs that came out of it. Stanley: Lemme ask, did your experiences working at the CCC, did they help you professionally? Or in what ways would they have helped you professionally? Ramos: Yes, definitely. I think I mentioned a little earlier where I remember Floyd would make us run meetings sometimes during our team meetings. And I remember feeling so anxious and being like, “Oh, I Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 11 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 don't wanna run a meeting.” But I think it definitely helped me professionally because I-- we're not—at least growing up, you know, I come from a low income community and we're not exposed to that. We're, we don't have those expectations. And so I think the Cross-Cultural Center really helped me kind of get my feet wet (Both laugh). And so, I think even just as simple as running meetings, people are like, “Oh, that's not even that bad.” Like, you know, creating an agenda or running a 30-minute, hour meeting. But to me it was like, “Oh my gosh, I can't do this.” Or you know, I, I had so much anxiety. But I think the more he rotated us to lead those meetings it really exposed us to that kind of professional development. And so I think that really helped me a lot. And I think even just the Civility Campaign, like being in charge of making those events, that was huge for me because I've never done anything like that. It was really, it was challenging, but in a good way. Because it really helped me grow. And I think, you know, even just the computer tech stuff or creating programs, collaborating with other staff members who were part of the student leadership program, I had never done really those type of collaborations. So it really, I think that's where he (Floyd Lai) really planted a seed for me because I think a lot of what I do now helped me, or I guess a lot of what I did then helped me now because now I'm like collaborating with teachers and attorneys and different social workers. And so that collaboration piece was so helpful for me even to today, because I think that was really my steppingstone. And when you do go out into your career, you're exposed to all of that. And I think he (Lai) really helped me grow in that way. Which I'm forever grateful for (laughs). Yeah. Stanley: In a, in a sort of different way. How did the CCC help you academically, in your academic career? Ramos: I definitely think--I think just, you know, Floyd's support as well. I think he really accepted me for like, everything that I was (both laugh) and so--I think just he really, he really took the time to listen to us. And if, if we weren't doing well academically, like I did feel comfortable letting him know, you know, it wasn't the best time for me. I know I had a hard time academically. And I know I had to take a step back away from working at the center because the center, it was my whole life. And so like the Civility (Campaign) kind of took over and I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I'm here for, to get a degree. Not to, you know--that was my priority, but I think I forgot that at one point while working at the center. And so I really had to take a step back. And I remember not being employed. I think I took a break, and then I returned after-- Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: --to work back at the Cross-Cultural Center. But Floyd was always so supportive during that time. And I think even the friendships that I had there. That I created when I was at the center helped me academically in so many ways because you know, I didn't, I--a lot of us would never think, especially for Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 12 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 my community, we're not really super encouraged to go to higher education. And my family is so supportive, so of course they were. But I think the expectations of us in communities like mine, we’re not expected to go and pursue higher education. And so that transition was so hard for me. And I did struggle academically. I'm horrible at tests, even to this day. I'm not a good test taker (both laugh). I like writing. But no, it was a, it was a struggle. But I think just having those consistent people in my life like Floyd and the friendships that I had at the Cross-Cultural Center really helped me academically. Stanley: You mentioned, well, okay, you just said you were formed a lot of relationships through the CCC. Are there any, any friendships or, or yeah. Any friendships that you still keep in contact with today? Ramos: I do. Yes. I haven't in a while. Like I mentioned my mentees, I, I need to reach out to them. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: But I still have connections with them through social media, but it's just comments here and there. But I, they're still so important in my life. And even my roommates--I lived at oh my gosh, is it the UVA (University Village Apartments), I don't know if they still call it that, but-- Stanley: Yeah. Ramos: They’re the dorms room. I met my roommates there and I also pulled them into the Civility Campaign. So (both laugh), I just--anybody I knew, I was like, “Hey, do you wanna volunteer?” So, my roommates were also part of that. But yes, I definitely still keep in contact with my roommates. I actually just saw one of them a couple weeks ago. So it's awesome because you, not just the peers, but I think Floyd, he's--even if I don't talk to him every month or year, I know he is always there and he always writes my letter of recommendation (both laugh). So, so that's always a great thing. We've, he's kind of like followed my journey, which is really cool to look back on. And, you know, he's always been there for those life-changing career moves or, you know, just anything, I know I can always have him to lean on. And we actually share the same birthday, so we always, “Happy birthday!” on our birthdays, so yes, definitely still have those relationships. Stanley: Well, that's really nice. I like that you keep in touch with people even after all this time (laughs). Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 13 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Ramos: Yeah. Yeah. Stanley: The CCC and looks like the, it sounds like the Civility Campaign was a big part of your time at the CCC. How did these, how did the CCC and the Civility Campaign help you understand, well shape your understanding of social justice and advocacy? Ramos: I think in a lot of ways. It really, even for myself, I know I kept saying, it helped create that dialogue where like a lot of students may have felt like it was, there was a lot of tension. I think it really helped me be okay with having those discussions because that's how we grow and how we support the movement of social justice. And so I think for me at the time--oh, I'm so sorry. I keep blanking out on the names, but I know there, I think it was a social justice retreat that the Cross-Cultural Center had or hosted. And I think that one really moved me deeply because it was the first time I really allowed myself to be vulnerable and like even talk about, my own trauma. And so I think I think it really just helped me wanna advocate more for others because I know like what I've experienced you know, there's others who have stories and who are going through a hard time. And so I think just really trying to gain that lens to try to support others. Stanley: Um-hmm. Ramos: And I feel like it's helped me to this day because I'm exposed to that every day where, you know, the institutions and stuff are not always on our side. And so (both laugh) and you know, there's just this whole systematic injustice for our families and I see it every day. And so I think it really helped me to, it led me to where I am today which is what I love, what I'm doing right now (both laugh). But I, it's definitely helped me and, and it really guided me towards this path. Stanley: Would you say that the CCC’s approach to diversity inclusion has changed over time? Or has it, or has it more remained the same over time? What would you say? Ramos: I think it has changed, but for the better. I think having those--I know I follow them on social media (laughs), so I see--I keep referencing social media 'cause it's such a big part of our lives now, but I definitely feel like the workshops that I see, and I can't even think of one off the top of my head, but I know they host those, at the Cross-Cultural Center. And I think that's so we--I don't think it was as structured as it is now. And I think that's so cool to see it grow, because I think during my time at least, Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 14 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 we were still in the developing stages of like, “Okay, what do we want the Cross-Cultural Center to be?” And so I think now it's like they have it all laid out. And, I think we were just at that when I was a part of the Cross-Cultural Center, that was still being developed. Like, “What is the program gonna look like? What are we gonna offer students and staff?” And so I think now to look back and kind of scroll past and I'm like, “Oh, that's so cool.” Like, you know, “They have these programs” like, “Oh, they have shirts.” And I was like, I remember laughing and being like, “Oh my God.” I remember always telling Floyd, “I want uniform shirts at the Cross-Cultural Center” (both laugh) to support the Cross-Cultural Center. And I see that the staff have that now. And I'm like, “Oh, that's so cool.” Like, just seeing how much it's developed over the years and how much how many, how many students are getting exposed to that. I think is so cool to see. And just to watch the center grow is awesome. Stanley: And I think a good follow up to this would be how do you envision the Cross-Cultural Center continuing to evolve and grow in the future? What role do you see it playing as it coexists with the expansion of identity specific spaces? Ramos: Ooh. Okay. Can you repeat the, can I take one question at a time? Can you repeat the first one? Stanley: That's fine. Yeah. Yeah (both laugh). How do you envision the CCC continuing to evolve and grow in the future? Ramos: Oh, I think I would love for it to partner up with community agencies or organizations. I think that'd be so cool to see because there is--you know, I know it's very student focused but I think if we can get the students out into the community, and I know they do like the Ceasar Chavez Day there at the center where they go, they have students come out and help out too. But I think if we can connect the center to outside agencies and to support kind of bringing it back to the students' youth. 'Cause I think that's where a lot of the times, you know--in the work that I am in now, trauma really impacts where people are led to. And I think if we can get, if we can do, early prevention work, I think that would be awesome. And what I mean by that is, I think having students be out in the community or helping organizations, it could really help them a lot. Because I think they get to see that change and it's like, “Wow, what I'm doing can really impact youth or, you know, people who may have experienced the same stuff that I have.” But even like fundraising or something for students, and my mind keeps going to foster youth and homelessness because that's where I'm working at right now. The pop--but I think there's a broader population that the students can work with or the center can work with. But I just feel like everybody needs support. And I think--yeah I don't, I really don't know how to wrap this around, but I just, I don't even know what I'm saying, but I think, I don't even know (Stanley laughs). I just lost myself in what I was saying. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 15 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Stanley: It's all good. Ramos: I just think the, there's so much potential for the Cross-Cultural Center and it has grown already so much. So I think the work that they're doing, if they can invite even the outside, like the public or I don't know anything. 'Cause they, they offer so many cool things and there's so many speakers that come up and when you go to those events and attend them yourself, you're just, you feel so empowered and you're like, “Okay, what's next? What do I do?” And so I feel like, I think that's the aspect that I'm trying to connect with the communities. If we can, because a lot of the times--when I know the Social Justice summit that I went to, I remember feeling so empowered and being like, “What do I do? What can I do? Who can I help?” Like where can I use, where can somebody use me in a good way for the community? And so you're left with like, “Okay, what's next?” And so I think that next step would be like, okay, let's let's get them out there. Let's help them support the community or some agency in some way. I think would be really cool to see, because you do have that adrenaline when you've learned that, you know new terms or social justice stuff, you kind of get excited, but you're like, what do I do with all this energy (both laugh)? So, that would be cool to see. I hope that made sense. I'm just rambling (laughs). Stanley: It did, it did. I really love your enthusiasm about, about the Cross-Cultural Center and that was definitely one of the more unique answers I've gotten to that question. So thank you much. Ramos: Okay (both laugh). Oh my God, that didn't make sense. I'm trying to tie it back together. Stanley: And the, the follow up to that question is what, what role do you see the CCC playing as it coexists with the identity specific spaces? Ramos: Oh do you mean spaces at the, at the ce--like at the Student Union? Stanley: Yeah. Spaces such as the Black Student Center, the Latin@/x Center, LGBTQ+ Center. Yes. Ramos: I think, you know, it all comes together. And I think it's--I don't want, I think that's why, you know, earlier when I talked about one of the challenges was people only saw like a certain population coming in. I don't like that at all because I feel we all have experienced some type of challenge with the way we identify with ourselves. And I think having those centers is so important because it creates those Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 16 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 safe places for students. But I think they all mesh--they can mesh in some way to like some degree. And I think because, you know, I think--I think it really, I would love to see them all work together. And I think they have in the past. I know we have when I was there. But I don't want people to see it as, you know, like I mentioned earlier, I could only go to the Black student Union if I identify as African American. I think, you know, it is a space for individuals to feel safe at. But I think I would want everyone to feel welcome and inclus--and like included. And I think coexisting with the other spaces is--I mean, it's been happening, it's been going well I think (both laugh). But I think just working more together or, you know, I don't know how it is now. I don't know how the different centers, how they're working together, but I think they can create something so beautiful and create events together where they coexist with each other. And I think that's, yeah, I think I can see that happening. Stanley: So the CCC sort of provides a, a beacon of inclusivity with all these other just sort of like categories (both talking). Ramos: Yeah. Stanley Uh-hmm. Ramos: Yeah. They kind of like intersect in some way, but it is important to identify. It is important to have those centers specific because, I think it allows that safe space for the students, but I think if, I mean, they intersect in some way. Stanley: And this is sort of a, a question I've been asking. Would you, would you be averse to adding maybe an Asian student center or (Ramos laughs) or any other sort of student centers? Ramos: I mean, sure. Yeah. Why not give everyone a center? Yeah. I think it's, I think it's so important because I think there has been a lot of controversy that where people are like, I don't think, I don't agree with, you know, the Latin(@/x) Center having a Latin(@/x) Center or Black Student Center or LGBTQ. But I think it's important to lay out, the different types of I don't even know the word. I think it's just important to, to realize, we have those centers for a reason. Stanley: Um-hmm. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 17 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Ramos: And it's because of the experiences that those populations have experienced. Not saying like nobody else has. But I think you know, especially just going back to going back to everything that those certain populations have experienced, they do, it is important to have those spaces because of what was experienced with those populations. And I think yeah, I think--I don't think we should take that away (laughs). And I think that there was a lot of controversy of that at first where it's like, “Oh, well you guys are secluding,” you know, as much as you wanna be inclusive. Like, you're also separating that. But it's like, no, that's not the point. You know, we need to have those, we have those spaces for a reason. So-- Stanley: Yeah. Like you mentioned before, just it's a safe space for-- Ramos: Yeah. It's a safe space-- (both talking) Stanley: Or you can go to, you know, you to, to feel, you know, 'cause lot of the times you look around, there's not many people that look like you around campus. Ramos: Yeah. Uh-hmm. I think that's so important. Stanley: All right. Well we're wrapping up here. I'll ask one final question and that would be, what advice would you give to current or future students who are interested in getting involved with the CCC? Ramos: Oh. Just go there. Go, go show up. No, I love the Cross-Cultural Center. And I think the advice that I would give is just don't--be open-minded and just really--yeah, I'm already starting off with horrible advice. I think I would just say, I think I would just say to, for them to be open-minded and know that they belong and know that they have that safe space. Because they deserve to be there as much as anybody else does. And they will find a home there. So I think that's (the) advice: is just be open-minded and know that they belong. That the space is for everyone. And it'll open so many doors for them. So I think that's something that I would say, and I would hope they literally go (laughs) and show up to the center. Yeah, I think just being open-minded and knowing that they belong there as much as anybody else does. Stanley: Well, thank you for that. And thank you for coming Arely. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 18 2023-11-22 �Arely Ramos TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-15 Ramos: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I hope I did okay. I feel like redoing the whole interview (both laugh). Oh my God (both talking). I should-- Stanley: I'm gonna stop the recording here. Ramos: Okay. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 19 2023-11-22 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ramos, Arely. Interview transcript April 15, 2023. Description An account of the resource Arely Ramos is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Human Development, Health Services. Ramos worked at the Cross-Cultural Center and was also involved in the Peer Mentoring Program and Civility Campaign on campus. In this interview, Ramos discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center became her second home and how she loved spending most her time at the center. Ramos explains how it pushed her out of her comfort zone and provided her with a safe space to practice presenting and managing a team. The time spent at the center provided her with tools and connections she would use until today. Ramos also discusses her career in social work at the Chula Vista Elementary School District. This oral history was created in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Arely Ramos Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Geneva Martinot Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-15 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Civility Campaign California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Child care services Chula Vista Elementary School District (Chula Vista, Calif.) Education, Higher Human rights Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Chula Vista (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Arely Ramos License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RamosArely_StanleySeth_2023-04-15_transcript Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Latine experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ayana Ford Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ariel Stevenson OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=StevensonAriel_FordAyana_04-15-21.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Stevenson, Ariel. Interview April 15th, 2021 SC027-02 00:57:14 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral histories collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm Activism, Student ; Anti-Black racism ; California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated ; California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center ; California State University San Marcos. Office of Inclusive Excellence ; Student success, Black ; San Marcos (Calif.) Ariel Stevenson Ayana Ford mp4 StevensonAriel_FordAyana_04-15-21.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4bba51350f71895f7c2665d9240d7951.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction Oral history interview of Ariel Stevenson, April 15th, 2021, by Ayana Ford, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 ["[\"\"]"] 31 Childhood Stevenson talks about being raised in Farrell, Pennsylvania, in a tight-knit community with a high population of Black folks. Warren, Ohio ; Farrell, Pennsylvania ; community ; small population 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 163 Black identity and conception of Blackness Stevenson discusses her early knowledge of being Black and the importance of her community center in shaping that conception. She reflects on a negative experience she had outside of her community. community center ; Black identity ; Black pride 0 ["[\"\"]"] 315 Impact of Black advocacy and social justice movements Stevenson reflects on her family as a key influence in her cultivation into Blackness and Black history as well as her civic engagement in her younger years. active ; activated ; family influence ; Sandusky, Ohio ; Kent State ; mayor ; politics ; civic engagement ; natural hair ; community cultivation ; Civil Rights Movement, Black Lives Matter ; Buffalo Soldiers ; Karamu House ; Underground Railroad 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 594 College experience Stevenson talks about getting her undergraduate degree at Albright College in Reading, Pennsylvania. Upon moving to North San Diego County to pursue her master’s degree at California State University, San Marcos, she found racism that was reminiscent of her time spent in Ohio. master’s ; California State University, San Marcos ; Reading, Pennsylvania ; Albright College ; racism ; North County 0 [""] 681 Early campus spaces, outreach to Black students by Black staff and faculty Stevenson discusses the lack of campus spaces when she first arrived and the role of Black faculty and staff on campus in outreach to and retention of Black students. Her first position on campus was at the front counter, where she interacted with many prospective Black students and their families. Students lead the campaign for a Black Student Center, but faculty and staff encouraged them. space ; belonging ; University Student Union ; Clarke Field House ; Markstein ; Social and Behavioral Sciences Building ; entry-level position ; front counter ; orientation ; African American Faculty Staff Association ; Black Faculty Staff Association (BFSA) ; retention ; families ; cold calls ; welcome program 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1102 Needs of students, staff, and faculty involved in the Black Student Center's creation Stevenson speaks about how because the Black student population was small, it was important that Black students had a place to gather and be in community with one another. In this place, students could discuss shared experience amongst peers. Black population ; presence ; representation ; student experience ; peers ; gather 0 [""] 1272 Opening of the Black Student Center Stevenson reflects on the opening of the Black Student Center and the important ways that different student groups, such as students affiliated with the Latinx Center advocated for the Black Student Center. Jamaéla Johnson ; Tiffany Boyd ; Darniesha Thornton ; and Dani Thornton, Akilah Green ; strong women ; Latinx Center ; Black Lives ; Asian Americans ; Dr. Luke Wood ; advocates ; President Karen Haynes 0 [""] 1537 Opposition to the creation of the Black Student Center Stevenson speaks about opposition to the opening of the Black Student Center, including calls for a white-only space and resistance to the Black Lives Matter movement. She also talks about the people and strategies combating the social tension. Daryl Smith ; white space ; Ku Klux Klan ; Conversations that Matter ; Dr. Sharon Elise ; Dr. Melina Abdullah ; Black Lives Matter ; social tension ; Gloria Ladson-Billings ; resistance 0 [""] 1831 University Administration's vision for the Black Student Center Stevenson talks about how University administration attempted to work with students in designing the space and budget. She specifically reminisces about the first three women of color to serve as the Associated Students, Incorporated leadership. These women had to be persistent in the face of opposition. Dr. Lorena Checka ; assignment ; budget ; research ; Tiffaney Boyd ; Jamaéla Johnson ; Associated Students, Incorporated ; leadership ; women of color ; persistence ; opposition 0 [""] 2068 First visit to the Black Student Center Stevenson reflects fondly on the opening of the Black Student Center. However, the opening of the Center was not a panacea, and challenges continued to exist. celebration ; dashiki ; Black student retention ; challenges ; Black Lives Matter ; Latinx students ; Floyd Lai ; Cross-Cultural Center 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2322 Early focus of the Black Student Center Stevenson discusses her excitement to be involved with the Center. She states that the expectation of some that the space would be the end all be all for Black students and issues was problematic. excitement ; Student Affairs ; Academic Affairs ; vision ; Black scholars ; Black scholarship ; end all be all 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2424 Initiatives and programming in the Center's early days Stevenson lists some of the early initiatives of the Black Student Center including collaborations with the intent of highlighting Black faculty and staff on campus. Black step shows ; Black Wall Street ; Black Panthers ; Hidden Figures ; Black Excellence Month ; Unity Hour ; Black Faculty and Staff Association ; programming ; interests 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2577 Hurdles in the early days of the Black Student Center Stevenson discusses the nascent mission and goals of the Center when it opened and how this could lead to conflict. Once again, the idea that the space could be everything to everybody was not coming to fruition. mission and goals ; inclusive environment ; pandemic ; identity ; conflict 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2727 Purpose of the Black Student Center Stevenson talks about how the Black Student Center should be a hub for Black student success and those in roles that are working to make this purpose a reality. Black scholarship ; Black student success ; gather ; be in community ; facilitator ; hub ; John Rawlins III ; pandemic ; Dr. Gail Cole-Avent ; identity crisis 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2991 Impact of Black Student Center on Stevenson Stevenson speaks about her love for the Black Student Center as a welcoming space and collaborative colleagues. space ; welcoming ; events ; collaboration ; conversation 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 3060 Future expectations for the Black Student Center Stevenson shares what she would like to see for the Black Student Center in the future, including a continued focus on Black student success and scholarship. Black student success initiative ; John Rawlins III ; collaboration ; scholarship 0 ["[\"\"]"] 3130 Stevenson's role on campus as Assistant Director for Programs and Initiatives Stevenson discusses her role on campus as including the broad umbrella of inclusion, diversity, equity, and justice. She works with faculty to revise curriculum, creates and implements trainings, and builds relationships so that this work will be done across campus, not just in the Office of Inclusive Excellence. Assistant Director for Programs and Initiatives ; Office of Inclusive Excellence ; Chief Diversity Officer ; inclusion, diversity, equity, and justice ; anti-racist ; implicit bias ; curriculum ; Faculty Center ; Ethnic Studies ; facilitate ; build relationships ; Dr. Ranjeeta Basu ; capacity ; President Ellen Neufeldt 0 [""] 3376 Stevenson's thoughts on the Black Student Center Oral History Project In conclusion, Stevenson expresses her excitement about the Black Student Center Oral History Project and her appreciation to the University Library for their partnership. institutional memory ; University Library ; students ; partnership ; research ecosystem 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] oral history Ariel Stevenson works in the Office of Inclusive Excellence at California State University San Marcos where she works closely with students to increase the diversity on campus. Stevenson has been on campus for 15 years. In this interview Stevenson discusses her impact on campus, including the way she helped get the Black Student Center open through student impact and support. She also discusses her experience as a Black student and CSUSM employee. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:28.000 Okay. Today is Thursday, April 15th, 2021 at 11:35 AM. I am Ayana Ford. I'm a student at San Marcos. And today I'm interviewing Ariel Stevenson for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration between the CSUSM Black Student Center and CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Thank you for talking with me today. 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:31.000 Absolutely. Happy to be here. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:37.000 I'd like to start by talking about your childhood, when and where you were born. 00:00:37.000 --> 00:04:46.000 Okay. Childhood. Born in Warren, Ohio, raised in Farrell, Pennsylvania, super small population. The size of my community is not even three miles in Farrell, Pennsylvania, all the way around. For the size, population, I would say probably under two or three thousand. I'll have to look it up. Super, super duper small community. Most of the people in that community come from working-class communities, middle-income communities. At the time, factories and steel mills and those kinds of companies existed when I was younger, but those jobs started to fade away as I probably--by the time I entered maybe seventh and eighth grade. So, just a lot of working-class folks in those communities, right? Like when I think back on my childhood, ‘cause you surprised me with that question, I think about like being from one of the, they call them weed-and-seed communities, right? So, from the Department of Justice, kind of like the war on criminal activity and drugs. Right. Which is interesting because the community is so small. So, thinking about maybe even being policed in a community that was policed--looking now back then--but it didn't feel like that growing up. I remember just like football games and neighbors and fun and super love. And when you say community really being in like a community, right? Like parents knowing other parents really closely, looking out for one another, really tight knit, and most importantly for me, our Black community and with Black identity. I knew I was Black at a young age. That was super important for good reasons and when I would travel outside of my community, for other reasons. Like I remember being at my auntie's house, and we were playing kickball on the street, and this car with a Confederate flag, right, yells “get out the street, n-word.“ And then it becomes this whole thing in the neighborhood. I remember that, and I was a little girl, and so, you know, having that, even in the eighties, late eighties. Right. But in the nineties really just formulating who I was in my Black identity, because I went to a community center, it literally it was the center of our lives. My mom worked many jobs and so after school, we were at the center until it closed, and we did our homework there, and we wrote essays there, and we learned how to play chess there. And we learned how to garden there--guerilla gardening, which we used to like go to empty lots and plant seeds and grow food like for the community, right. Like the state or the government owned it, and we were like, We're going to take it back. Doing that at a young age because we had a lot of--when I was growing up-- there was a lot of Black pride. So, we had a lot of folks who were Africanists and being Black and proud and African identity, knowing that you were more than a slave was like super important in our history. That's what we were taught a lot at the community center. So, very fond memories of my childhood in my formative years, but definitely one that shaped who and what I am today. And that I'm proud of, yeah, super proud of. 00:04:46.000 --> 00:05:09.000 That's wonderful. That was actually my next question on how that shaped you. So, specifically on when it comes to the Black social justice movement, such as the Black Lives Matter movement, the Civil Rights Movement, the feminism movement, and the natural hair movement. How do you think those affected CSUSM and you personally? 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:12.000 That's a big question. [laughter] 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:16.000 We’ll start with you, like, how did that affect you primarily? 00:05:16.000 --> 00:09:04.000 So, because I came from a place where I was already cultivated in Blackness, and I say this, like, I remember being young and my uncle, my family was always active and activated. And so, things that they did not like in the community. So, the community where my mom came from where I was born, right. We were still pretty active ‘cause that's where my aunties, my grandmother, and my family lived. And then even though I was raised at another school in another community, you know, my mother, we were always back and forth. And so, I just remember, you know, stuff on the news where--I remember these things, Ayana you are recalling some things--like with the police pulling over this guy with a broken taillight. He ends up, you know, getting beat. I remember Sandusky, Ohio. And then I remember working there in the summers for college and Black folks having a very, having to protest in that area because of what was happening to Black college students. I remember my uncle running for mayor. He was going to be the first Black mayor at that time. And he went to Kent state, which is significant because I think during that time, that's when the shooting happened of a Kent state student, historically, if I'm not mistaken. My uncle, he's no longer with us anymore. But I say that to say like, so politically, my family has always been involved. I even remember from my civics class, being like the seventh grade and volunteering to count votes and doing the--this is how old I feel now--doing the chalk and writing the names on the board in the community center. And as it was coming in, really playing a role of like helping to count up the votes, where are we? Right. ‘Cause it's a small community. So, really every vote counting. I remember those things. I remember being like, when I was on, when I used to cheer, natural hair back then it wasn't as prevalent as it is now. But there was a--she's a woman now--there was a girl, she was a year older than me. And she was on the team, and she started just wearing her hair natural. And she was like, Why would I straighten my hair every day? And I was like, Why are we straightening our hair every day? Especially if the perm doesn't even take, like and it's a whole process. And I remember being seventeen or eighteen and wearing natural hair. And it was not the thing, Ayana. It was very much like, Why did you cut off all your hair? You know, people not thinking I'm not as pretty anymore. ‘Cause I had, you know, nice thick hair. So, all of those things, I had already gone through those things and those processes at a young age. So, by the time I came to Cal State San Marcos and even when I went to college, like I should say and also note I grew up--because I grew up in a Black community--I also went to a high school that was majority Black, my vice principal was Black, my science teachers were Black. And so, that's what I mean when I say I was cultivated. And when I went to undergrad, I had a very shocking, like Where are all the Black people? kind of moments. And so, what was good is that I was cultivated by my community, and so even though I was shocked in undergrad, I was, I felt prepared for the things that came with that and the experiences. So, by the time I came to Cal State as a master's student and as a working professional, that was seen in terms of like natural hair or what were the, some of the other things you named, Ayana? 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:08.000 The Civil Rights Movement, Black Lives Matter movement-- 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:53.000 Right. The Civil Rights Movement, like growing up knowing those things. Just because when I went to the community center, we learned about the Buffalo Soldiers and then we would go to the Karamu House in Cleveland, and they would do the play. And then at the bottom, they would do the tour of one of the places along the Underground Railroad because it was built on top of it or near it, where we would do a tour. So, the Civil Rights Movement and those teachings were a part of how I was cultivated as a young Black girl and transitioned into my later years. And so, Cal State San Marcos, I was just ready for it all, you know, is how I'll say it. 00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:58.000 So, did you go straight from high school to Cal State San Marcos? Or did you go-- 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:39.000 No, I went to, I did my master’s at Cal State San Marcos. I did my undergrad, so I went from high school to college, and I went to college outside of Philadelphia, in Pennsylvania, at this place called Reading, Albright College. And then from there, I worked for a year and then I moved to California because when you're from the East coast, you know, people talk about California in this way, like the sun and the trees, and so you're excited. And my mom, when she was younger, had moved to California--my mom and dad for a little bit--and so I had always had this fantasy about California. 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:40.000 Um-hmm. 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:58.000 So, I showed up, and I was like, This felt like Ohio, politically and socially, at least in North County, where I'm located and where I stay. So yeah, they got the palm trees and the sun, but racism is very similar. 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:18.000 That, yeah, I’ve been to the South, and I know that there's a kind of in that area. It’s very hard. So, have you seen, so during your time there, have you seen it like directly affect CSUSM and like the opening of the Black Student Center and stuff like that? 00:11:18.000 --> 00:14:24.000 Yeah, I mean the student would come, and they talked about it for a while. Like not having a space and not having a place and not feeling like they belong anywhere. And at that time, there was no USU (University Student Union), so let's just be clear. The Clarke Field House was the main multipurpose space for everything that we had had on campus. At least my time. I came to campus at year, 2006 to 2007? So, I've been with the campus it'll--on the seventeenth--ooh, it'll be fifteen years that I've been with the campus. Yes, my whole youth. So, the campus at that time, it was growing, like Markstein was like the newest building and there was no SBSB (Social and Behavioral Sciences Building), there was no USU--I already said that. Yeah, a lot of the building, there was no bench that's out there--that bench from the last president. It just looked different, and students would come to our--first, you know, I haven't always worked in the inclusive excellence office. So, my entry-level position was at the front counter, and I loved it because I feel, like I really feel like it's the gateway to students and families, and I would come, and I would see so many families and so many students. And I would interact with them prior to orientation because you know, we're helping them navigate, like what's missing on their application or if they have questions or the parents have questions. And so, that's how I first started to get to know a lot of the students that came through. But a lot of the students that were Black remembered my face and the other woman who was working, who was Black at the time. So, they would just come back because they remembered seeing me at orientation and whenever they would have a question, they would feel comfortable. And I would say, you know, You're here, we welcome you here. And whatever I could do for your experience to enhance it, to make it better, to help you navigate, I'm happy to do that, right. Because even, you know, you work your job, well--as sometimes on this campus as Black folks--you work your job, but you also work other jobs in this labor. And so, when there wasn't a space for Black students, the Black faculty and staff, we were the space. At the time was called African American Faculty Staff Association. And a lot of the programming is now called Black Faculty and Staff Association (BFSA) to be more inclusive for Black-identifying folks from all over the Americas. Right. All over the world. When they come to Cal State San Marcos so that they see themselves and their identity. Were you going to ask me another question? 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:35.000 Oh, I was actually going to ask you about, so early on, did you hear like a lot of the push for the Black Student Center? Like a center for students who identified as Black or African American? 00:14:35.000 --> 00:17:08.000 I felt like it was a push for, by students, yes, and led by students. But faculty and staff wanted them to have a space as well. Because going back to what I was saying is that, like, we just felt like the retention of our students, they were, they didn't, they didn't have anything. They didn't have anybody but us, as faculty and staff members, right. That's why I talked about, like, just being at that front counter and welcoming students, like that seems like a small thing. But seeing, like students have told me and their families, like, you know, I told my, I told my daughter, I told my son to like, you know, that lady, Ms. Stevenson, you find her ‘cause she's going to be helpful. She said she would help you. And they would come back. And so like, we became Black bodies at Cal State San Marcos became the institution for Black students. So, to answer your question, yes, students definitely led it, but faculty and staff definitely encouraged them to say, Yeah, you do belong. You should have a space. There's nothing wrong with asking for a space, yeah. ‘Cause we would even do cold calls, like Black Faculty and Staff Association would get on the phone—that’s how you know it's back in the day. And if students did not do their intent to enroll, we would call, we would have like a couple of days and we would split it up, and we would get in the office because, you know, we needed an outreach office or we used the outreach office. They would let us use it. And they would let us use their phones, and we will sign it for a few hours. And we would say, May first is coming. Right. Like right now. And if we didn't see it, We want you to choose Cal State San Marcos. We are Black Faculty Staff--or African American Faculty Staff Association--and we want you here. We'll, you know, take care of you. We'll love on you. We did, Ayana, we used to. And I smile because it's some of my best memories because you know, cold calling students, you know, we use everything now digitally, but calling them, a phone call meant something. Even, you know, twelve years ago, fifteen years ago, it meant something. It meant we want you ; we care about you. And you could come to us, and it meant to parents that they were in good hands, that even if whatever was happening or whatever their thoughts was about the institution that as Black Faculty and Staff Association, we were trying to dismantle those thoughts and say, No, you know, we'll still, we'll look out for them. 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:14.000 That's, that's wonderful. ‘Cause that would probably get a lot of students to feel welcome to come to San Marcos. 00:17:14.000 --> 00:18:09.000 We used to have a welcome program. I still think we have, it's just a little different. So, we would, you know, we would call them and then we'd have the welcome program. And the admissions director would be there and all the key resources and support for mental health for all of the Black faculty and staff, it was like a big deal. ‘Cause then they would come in on move in day and then we would invite their parents because we wanted their parents to say, like, You can't say you're going to be accountable to somebody's child. People want to look you in the eye because then they say, You told me he was going to be accountable for my child. You know? So, and it helped make some of the conversations easier to say, like, they will want to know What's they grades? And we'd be like, FERPA is a thing, we can't just bust out and tell you the grades, you know. The students have rights. I know they're eighteen, and they're your babies, but you know, so yeah. 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:25.000 Oh, my goodness. That takes me back to when I first got on campus. So, what do you think that the student and staff and faculty involved in the creation of the Black Student Center felt like they needed from the Black Student Center? 00:18:25.000 --> 00:21:00.000 I think they needed a place to see one another. That because the Black population is small, I think we're under, still under four percent, that they didn't see each other--and I can tell you this--they didn't see each other until it was time for the graduation and recognition ceremony. So, so many times prior to having a space where they gather, they do this part, where they call open mic. So many of them would look back to their student peers and say, I did not know that there were so many of us here. If I knew that, I would have, maybe my experience could have been different. So, I think just having a space where they know that they knew that they were there and present, because presence and representation means something. To be in a place, where you can have honest conversation about your experiences because I don't know where else and who else could identify with their experiences except for them, and faculty and staff--they're still professionals, right--faculty and staff are older. So, even though they're having a very similar, or they were having very similar experiences, students needed peers to kind of like, just talk to and talk through, right. And even if they were having classes or being able to share and say, You know, I took this professor, this professor is good. You'll definitely pass and do well. They needed that system. I'm going to say they needed their own railroad because they were trying to figure it out in this way, being sparse and in between and trying to find each other. And the Center became this place where they gathered. I will say the Black Student Union at that time was like, was a big facilitator, as well. I don't want to leave them out. That was, I almost felt like the numbers for their participation was large prior to the Center, just because it was the only space for students to be together and to gather. But if you were a student that was at like Extended Learning (Building) and you weren’t on main campus and you couldn't make the meetings, right, because of the schedule, then it was harder. But now I think the Center being open and being a present and stable place, and a sustained place, now they just know where to go. Am I answering your question? 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:02.000 Yes! 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:04.000 Okay. I'm like, I'm just on memory lane. 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:11.000 We want--I want that. We want that. [laughter] So, were you able to attend the Black Student Center’s grand opening? 00:21:11.000 --> 00:25:31.000 Yes. I wasn't going to miss that! I attended, I was there with the young women I remember, like Jamaéla (Johnson), Tiffany (Boyd), the twins Darniesha and Dani (Thornton), Akilah (Green), such beautiful women. And those women, they really led, those young women really led the conversation for the space to be created. And I also want to note this piece because I don't know if people know this piece that when the Latin center, Latin (Latinx) Center was being built, a lot of Black students supported that space for the Latin(x) Center to be built because they felt like they understood, and then when Black students needed the space, a lot of the Latinx students also supported. I was at the meeting, the open forum where some of the students came in and they had the sign, and they stood, and other students, I remember some of the Latinx leaders at that time, they stood right along with them because they remember when those students stood up with them when they needed a space. So, I would even say that those two spaces really came about because of students' voices, because students wanted a space and because those different populations were advocating for one another, which is super important, you know, when we think about what's happening in terms of you mentioned Black Lives. It's important to see when you see all over the internet and all over the world that you see different organizations, you see Asian Americans standing for Black Lives. You see all the different diverse groups standing for Black Lives. That means something, especially with the experiences of Black Lives and what that means. It's a very unique experience. And other experiences have their experiences and unique--I wouldn't take away from them--but to even focus on Black, what it means for a Black life right, in academia. I think – what I know is yes, Black lives matter. So Black scholarship matters, Black mind--as Dr. Luke Wood would say in his whole movement--it matters, you know. Black grades matter. Black, you know, leaders matter, right? And then higher education is where they're being shaped. So, to go back to those young students, the women and the newer young men that came on working together to make sure that it was a space, it was a very, it was a very beautiful thing, watching as a professional staff member on the outside, because you see your students, you see them evolve, you see them trying to navigate and understand and understand what the policies are and create a space, and those particular students, they weren't trying to like be disruptive or, if, you know, they were definitely advocating to just be students who were heard and welcomed and having better experiences, and they weren't doing it in a way that was like--even when it got to the protest or protesting at the forum--it wasn't like they were making a bunch of like super, like loud noise. They kind of stood up with a sign. They asked the President of that time (President Karen Haynes), ‘cause it wasn't our current President, for the space. You know, and I always see, when I see those young men and women even now, and they always were just, they were organized and advocates and activated. But when I even think about what they're doing now, they're all in like grad school or in wonderful, wonderful jobs or even coming back to our campus talking about free speech. And so, to me, that's why it's even that much more important for our campus community to keep cultivating those students because they come back and they enrich the campus community. 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:48.000 Exactly. So, to go back, did you see any external or internal pushback on the creation of the Black Student Center? Or did you directly witness any pushback on the creation on social media or anything like that? 00:25:48.000 --> 00:30:06.000 I did not see it for myself. Right. But I just remember the conversations, folks were saying things like--ooh, actually, I'll take it back. I do remember, I forgot all about this. We brought in Daryl Smith to campus to speak about diversity issues. And I remember a small group of white students standing up during her talk. And Daryl identifies as white and does diversity work and is known in the diversity field and really pushed back on the students. So, they were asking for a white space, and they were saying that if we're basically going to make a space for everybody, like we want a space as well. And I remember her saying something like, you have, thinking like that if you want a space for only whiteness in that way that you're saying, because they were saying it in a very harmful way, is how she was and how she took it. And she said, Yes, you have a space for your ideas. Go and join the Ku Klux Klan, where you belong. Right. Like that was like, that was controversial. But just trying to point out the supremacy in that thinking and culture, the way that it was approaching and not really understanding the conversations. And so, there was a lot of conversations about what it meant to have a space. One of the things that I do in our office, we have Conversations That Matter. And so, one of the things that's involved or that's a part of the Conversations That Matter series is you have to have a call to action. And I remember we had one that talked about Black studies matter, because we needed to educate folks on, well the students and the faculty wanted to come, and they want it to educate folks on what it meant to have Black studies in Black spaces. So, it was a campus conversation on that to try to negate, I guess, pushback or to answer questions. Right, and that was great. ‘Cause it had founding faculty from San Diego (State), founding faculty from the African, Africana Studies program, I think from SDSU, it had, I would have to go back. Dr. Sharon Elise had led that conversation. Dr. Melina (Abdullah) from Long Beach, who heads the Black Lives Matter LA version, I think, was on that conversation. I'm getting people's titles all wrong. But the point is, Black faculty from the CSU came to support CSU San Marcos on that conversation because it was a larger conversation, I think, having--happening in the system around spaces for Black students. And, you know, at that time Black Lives Matter, this is Black Lives Matter. People were not acceptable of Black Lives Matter. Like now you see people like donating bunches of, a bunch of money or protesting together and saying, “Black Lives Matter,” no matter how diverse they are to my point earlier, but that wasn't the conversation nationally. It was very much like when you say Black Lives Matter, what about blue lives? What about white lives? So, that is the tension, the social tension that was happening, even in the midst of like, they were coming off of that, even in the midst of this space of higher education, you know. And centers in itself, cultural centers, have been a longer conversation historically, I think, Gloria, Gloria Ladson-Billings, around her publishings on cultural centers. So yeah, it, there was. So yeah, to answer your question, I guess, to go back, there was some pushback for sure. Yes. And resistance coming from--yeah, there was. Sorry I had to reflect a little bit more. 00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:19.000 Oh no, please, please reflect ‘cause that's, that's really interesting, actually. So, what did the university admissions communicate was their vision when it comes to the Black Student Center, as well? 00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:21.000 Wait, say that again? 00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:31.000 What was the vision for the university administration communicating with their vision? 00:30:31.000 --> 00:34:19.000 If I remember correctly, I just remember the students had requested the space, and I think they were Dr. (Lorena) Checka and the President because she (Dr. Checka) oversees Student Affairs, was responsible for working with the students to kind of like look for a space, think about the budget, think about those things. So, I felt like the students were charged with making it happen, with the support of, maybe Dr. Checka trying to like help them make it happen, if that makes sense. But to be honest, I feel like, yeah, it was kinda’ like we asked for the space, the students, this is what the students had told me: We asked for the space and now they're making us do all of the work that administration would normally do to create the space. I think that could have probably been a little bit clearer for students because it made them feel like they're like, Well here, if you want the space, you figure it out, right. Where I think the, they were trying to do--and this is where I don't know for sure--but I think they were trying to be in partnership with the students so that the students also understood this is what it takes to create a space, this is what a budget of a space looks like, making them do the research which is okay. I feel like students need that scholarly, like this is how you research. So, if you get in a nonprofit or you request money or request a space, you need to know this information. But I think originally like just how it came across was interesting. And then even, you know, at the time, I felt like it wasn't, there because there wasn't specific ownership of the space--and maybe you’ll interview Tiffaney Boyd and she’ll have a, as a student, a better, she’ll have more to say about this. But, I remember, so, when Tiffaney was President (of Associated Students, Incorporated, ASI) and Jamaéla (Johnson) was one of the execs, and there was another young woman. I’m forgetting her name. They were, I think, the first women of color to be ASI leadership and executives, at that time, during their leadership time. And they themselves, as women of color, specifically Black women on this campus, was having some challenges just being the leaders of the student body. And, you know, some of the things that were just coming towards them was very, very interesting, like I was surprised, you know. I’m very proud of them because some folks did not make it easy for them. And they had some moments, you know. So, they had to be tough and strong, and they’re students, you know, they’re students trying to be students. But also trying to do this very important political and social thing for students futuristically, you know. And I don’t think that part of the story gets told. That those women of color, when they were leaders, they had some opposition for sure. And I think about that because, you know, whatever we could do to assist, where we could assist, you know. But, you know, I look at them, and they were strong. Whether they wanted to be or not, they had to be. And they had to figure it out. What was your question? I feel like I digressed. 00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:28.000 Oh no, you, you answered it perfectly. (laughter) So, what was it like when you first visited the Center for the first time? 00:34:28.000 --> 00:38:28.000 So, when they had a celebration, in the spirit of it all was like a super proud day. There was a ribbon cutting, there was like smiles everywhere. People had on, I felt like everybody had on the dashiki or dashiki dress or like something to be connected to their African-ness and faculty and staff--not everybody--but faculty and staff, they showed up, supporters of the space showed up. And so, being in that space in the very beginning and what it meant because the people who've been here for a while historically understood what it meant to gain such a place for Black students, when Black student retention and equity gaps and all of those things have been a conversation for so long. And to have this, yes it was one center, but to have it, really felt like okay, now we're going to be able to expand the Black population and do all of these things. So, the spirit of that day, the spirit of that first, you know, year on the outside was interesting. I think that the people who worked in the inside, the students and the staff probably had some interesting experiences ‘cause I think that people felt challenged. One thing about when people focus on things that are Black, it sometimes feels like everybody has input on why it can't be focused on just Blackness, which is interesting. Anytime that Blackness is centered, and we see that right, with Black Lives Matter, right? We can't even say Black lives matter without something, without somebody saying, What about blue lives? What about white lives? And people constantly saying, We never said that those things were not important! We’re saying that you never deemed Black life important since day zero. And we are making--like the young folks are making sure that we matter and that we count and to see that is important. And so, when the space to say like, Yes, all students matter! But we are making sure that we say we recognize and understand the experience, the negative experiences that Black students have been having, and we're trying to improve those, is important, right? That’s why I mentioned, wanted to mention the piece around the Latinx students who support it because I think they understood because they also had some similar things happening in a different kind of way, but just understood when people say we are focusing on this population, and there is nothing wrong to focus on this population. So, I think that the folks who worked there when people would come in and they didn't understand what the space is for, and were like Why? Or if they saw social media saying, here we go again with, you know, whatever people were saying. I think it was a challenge to, for them. And I think it was difficult for them. And you know, they did what they do and as Black folks, they held their head high and shoulders back. But that doesn't mean that those Black students who are just looking for a space, didn't feel again, like, Why is this happening? Why are people making us feel like we don't belong? Why are when I talk about Black people, you're saying et cetera and making me talk about something else, you know? But I think that's important. And also just like and other people that support it. I feel like even the director, Floyd Lai, from the Cross-Cultural Center always has been supportive of the other spaces. Just that understanding and those things are important as well. 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:43.000 Yeah. Those are very important to know. So, continue, can you tell me a little bit about the early focuses of the Black Student Center, the programming events and focuses? 00:38:43.000 --> 00:40:08.000 Yeah, I mean, I remember--I should say this too, Ayana--I remember I was excited for the Black Student Center. I had applied to be the director of the Black Student Center at one time. I was excited, like this is the place, you know? And so, the vision around it being a place really, even though being in Student Affairs, being connected to Academic Affairs, really developing Black scholars and scholarship, having that historical understanding for folks and that education. Before it was formed, I know that like it was, people have the vision, honestly, that it was going to be the end all be all of everything, which is problematic because one space can't answer all things for Black students. And having people realize that, you know, the diaspora is not a monolith, right. And the students are not monolithic in their thinking and their approaches. So, I think even now, you know, that's a challenge, understanding how the richness and diversity among Black people and Black students. So having it be this end all be all is interesting, was interesting. So that's ‘kinda what I remember about it. My little piece. Yeah. 00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:23.000 Mmm. So, expand upon that a little bit more about that. So, on that early, you didn't, any initiatives or programming specifically that you like knowingly like saw push, like right after the Black Student Center? 00:40:23.000 --> 00:42:40.000 I don't know if it was right after, but I know that they started to have Black step shows. They started to have Black Wall Street. They had the Black Panthers. They had one of my favorite events, they had something called Hidden Figures, and they were recognizing, they had it on so-called Valentine’s Day in February, which was also during a Black Excellence Month and they would recognize Black faculty and staff members on campus and their, the work that they did in a hidden way, and I was one of them. But one of the Black women, she doesn't work here anymore-- many of the Black women that were here don't work here anymore. It was just one of those events, it was one of my favorites because it was like, a we see you from the students, right. It was the student stance of Black faculty and staff, like we see you, we know what you do. They may not know, or other people may not know, but we know what you do for us, and we appreciate you for it. And it just, it was a really good event. So, there were a lot of great events when it first started, yeah, like four or five. But there they were having--oh, they would have Black Unity Hour, Unity Hour, I think they still have that. And they would try to do a lot of coordinator with the Black Faculty Staff Association. So, trying to welcome the Black Faculty Staff Association. They have this thing--I forget what it was called--but the Black Faculty and Staff Association, one person a week could come in and lead a conversation with the students on whatever topic that they were interested in. And, you know, so that was nice. I remember I did a topic in there with them, with another colleague, and we focused on white supremacy, white groups, and kind of like, what does that mean for Black lives and Black students, something like that, you know? So, they were doing a lot of programming, and they had a lot of interests. 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:48.000 So what are some wrinkles that do you think were worked out in the early days of the Center? 00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:50.000 That I can talk about? (laughter) 00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:54.000 Yeah. That you can, yeah. (laughter) 00:42:54.000 --> 00:45:20.000 Yeah. I think understanding the mission and the goal of the Center, like I think they might even be working on that, like understanding that, like we know it’s a Center and we know it’s the space for Black students. But having a unified goal from the very beginning, not sure if they had that from the very beginning. Who could be in this space? It was always like a conversation. Who could be in the space? And I was like, Well, the space is open to all, right, ‘cause we're an inclusive environment, but let us not forget the space is gonna’ focus on Black scholarship, like what it means to be Black and those different things. And so, they had to always debunk myths. I feel like in the beginning, people would, they had to debunk myths, because people were like, Well, can I be in here? And they're like, It's a space like any other space on campus. Do you ask the other spaces if you can be there? Like they had to do a lot of like that teaching folks, they probably still have to do that. And I'm saying, I don't know for sure ‘cause we're in a pandemic, but you know, but they're still having virtual events. But that was like one of the things like people were out constantly asking people who maybe who didn't understand if they could be in the space and they would always be like, Yeah, you could be in the space, but just know in the space, this is the focus. And if you support the mission and the focus of the space, then there's no problem. And I do think, I do feel like the students were challenged a lot in the space. And I also think there was some internal things happening in this space. Yeah, just trying to work out the identity. I think the identity of the space being worked out and what it meant, you know, and because it didn’t come with a very strong mission or had a strong mission, people made the mission, or the identity of the space based on who they were and what they wanted to see out of the space. So that, I think sometimes that leads to conflict. In terms of just like everybody had their idea of going back to, even, you know, faculty and staff. Everybody had wanted the space to be everything for everybody and then realizing real quick that that cannot be the case. 00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:27.000 So, what would you say is the purpose of the, of the Center specifically? 00:45:27.000 --> 00:48:05.000 Yeah, I would say the purpose of the space is Black scholarship for students is the first and foremost important part of the space. The space is in a place for higher education, and so the goal is to make sure that in whatever way the Center can help facilitate Black student success. So, Black student success and Black scholarship is what I would say is the most important facilitation of the space, right? Like how has that space facilitating Black students to graduate on time, to make sure that Black students know how to write, to make sure that, right, like we have the Writing Center and we have those other spaces, but if Black students are not going to those spaces for whatever reason, that they're also giving, getting that in some, to some degree, in the space. So, I think that’s one of the--this is my opinion--but yeah, one of the most important things that like Black, that Black student success is happening. And so, how they go about Black student success? I think the space gets to determine, right. But just like some of the things that I named, but also a place on a list to, if I had a list of what it's for, students to gather and be, and be in community. There's a long history, I think I even started with my beginning of like the importance of community to Black folks in the Americas. I would say globally, but I'm a scholar in the US mostly, I shouldn't say that. I have a Latin American studies minor. But and that was still like examining Blackness, you know? But yeah, Black student success overall. I know that's super general, but whatever it means for Black students. So, like if a Black student trying to graduate from Cal State, making sure I graduate, like, and I want to graduate, go to graduate school, what things can the space provide in conjunction with the services we have on campus? So maybe, you know, the Black Student Center is a facilitator, making sure that the students know what resources are available throughout the campus. So, a hub of facilitating that student success. 00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:11.000 So, do you think this purpose is being accomplished, the multiple lines that you mentioned, currently? 00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:15.000 Do I think the purpose is being accomplished right now? 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:16.000 Mmm-hmm. 00:48:16.000 --> 00:49:04.000 Yeah. I think that with their new student director, John Rawlins (III), I think that, well that we’re in a pandemic, but even in that, I think that John is trying to create some sustainable foundation for the space that wasn't there. So, I would say with the new director and with the new AVP Dr. (Gail) Cole-Avent (Associate Vice-President, Student Life), who also oversees all of the centers, they're definitely in tandem, working that that space is a place for student success, Black student success. Yes. I think they're on the journey. I don't know if they've arrived because the space is how old now, like three years? 00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:07.000 Three years, it'll be five coming up, about four years. 00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:42.000 Four years, and it’ll be five. Okay. So, and I think John has only been here one, maybe two, years, and Dr. Cole-Avent maybe one, maybe two years. So, you know, the space has gone through some, I want to say identity crisis, but I'm going to call it that for the lack of a better term. And they're trying to shape that and build that foundation and repair some things, repair some things. So, to your question, yes. I think that they are on the road to recovery and the road to making sure that the foundation for Black students for that space is student success. 00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:52.000 Ok. All right. So how has the Black Student Center affected you personally? 00:49:52.000 --> 00:50:54.000 I love the space. Sometimes just when I walk the campus, I'll go visit all the spaces. But I love that when I come in the space, I feel welcomed by students. I'm happy to see them and they seem happy to see me. Unless they think I'm going to have them, assign them some things. (laughter) Or ask them some questions about classes, if they've gone or not. But the presence of the space has been great to like some of the events that have, I don't know of the capacity if you, of those events could have been had on campus without the space and the collaboration of the space. But just going in there and just seeing like, what's going on, what are y'all up to? What are y'all working on? Sometimes, especially in, you know, thinking about some of the conversations that they were having or some of the programs just to walk by or to stop in for a moment just to see what's going on. So good on campus. 00:50:54.000 --> 00:51:00.000 So, with all that's going on, what do you expect to see next for the Black Student Center? 00:51:00.000 --> 00:52:00.000 I really expect that the Black student success initiative that's going to come down, I really hope that it can help grow our Black student population and have that space be a hub. And I say that, I'm trying to be gentle in saying that because John (Rawlins III, Director of the Black Student Center) is one person, right, and so doing, you know, the best that he can as one person. But what I would like to see next is those student initiatives out of the space, really concrete, and really growing and seeing scholarship, the scholarship that the students produce, the presentation opportunities, seeing, you know, the way that faculty continue to collaborate with the students and produce scholarship. That's what I think some of the next steps are. 00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:10.000 Okay, so you had mentioned previously, but can you talk a little bit about your role on, on the, on campus currently? 00:52:10.000 --> 00:56:09.000 Yeah. I'm the Assistant Director for Programs and Initiatives (in the Office of Inclusive Excellence). My role is to make sure, help make sure that the campus is inclusive and welcoming, to help make sure that the CDO (Chief Diversity Officer) and I, that we advise our presidential administration team on the best decisions for the campus to strategically be doing the work of inclusion, diversity, equity, and justice. And so, I know that's super broad, but it’s broad because, Ayana, it entails a lot. It looks different in different ways, right? It can look like a summit on what we're doing for specific populations. It can look like anti-racist work and implicit bias training. It can look like, what are we doing for students for putting together diversity work and sustainability work, and how is that helping student success? It can look like what are we doing with our social justice grants and how are people doing the work of diversity across campus? It has many forms. I do many things. It can look like, how do we decolonize a syllabus and work with the Faculty Center on a program, such as that and making sure that our faculty and staff also feel welcomed and included on campus doing this work. And that students, no matter where they go on campus, that we have some inclusive curriculum. It can look like there there's a new Ethnic Studies program coming, possibly, not program, I'm sorry bill or conversation, right. Like the work of the Office of Inclusive Excellence is very expansive across the campus because the goal was to make sure that inclusion is in everything that we do, whether in hiring, whether in our search process and our retention of our faculty, staff, and students, and our, again, in our curriculum, and the daily operations of like vendors and policies and how they're applied. So yeah, it's all of that with many forms and my job is to help facilitate it where I can, how I can, really building relationships across the campus and making sure that our Office is you know, also there to advise or to help and guide where folks need the assistance when they're, when they're trying to transform their department from, you know, a more inclusive space or department and they don't know what that looks like. So, it's a lot. I enjoy it. I enjoy working with our current, interim CDO (Dr. Ranjeeta Basu). We're in the midst of hiring a new chief--and I say CDO--that's the Chief Diversity Officer. And so, just trying to figure out where do we go from here? And I know where we go, we need to expand the capacity of our office so that we could continue to do this work all over, consistently. But what's nice is that the new President, President [Ellen] Neufeldt, has said this work belongs to the campus, and it is not just relegated to one office and that we all do this work of inclusion together. So, that's been a great relief, and you know, I applaud the new President for that. 00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:16.000 Okay. So, those are all my questions. Do you have anything you wanted to add or anything you would want to say? 00:56:16.000 --> 00:57:05.000 Yeah, I think this is a great project. I think that it's going to be important. I'm all into the institutional memory that we need to carry forward, especially with the conversations we're having now about like naming of buildings and why do we have those names or why do we have this space or what was the purpose. So, I'm very excited about the project and I love that the University Library was happy to partner with students, graduate students, with the (Black Student) Center, a lot of students, yourself and other students, who are doing the interviews, it becomes this whole research ecosystem, and I'm all happy for that. So good job. 00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:10.000 Thank you so much for allowing me to interview you. This is a wonderful interview. Thank you so much. 00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:12.000 No problem. 00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:14.000 Have a nice day. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en &#13 ; video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=StevensonAriel_FordAyana_04-15-21.xml StevensonAriel_FordAyana_04-15-21.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Stevenson, Ariel. Interview April 15th, 2021 Description An account of the resource Ariel Stevenson works in the Office of Inclusive Excellence at California State University San Marcos where she works closely with students to increase the diversity on campus. Stevenson has been on campus for 15 years. In this interview Stevenson discusses her impact on campus, including the way she helped get the Black Student Center open through student impact and support. She also discusses her experience as a Black student and CSUSM employee. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-02 Subject The topic of the resource Activism, Student Anti-Black racism California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Office of Inclusive Excellence Student success, Black Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-15 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ariel Stevenson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Farrell (Penn.) Warren (Ohio) Reading (Penn.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <span><a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a><br /></span> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Ariel Stevenson Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b428ee31bab3ba47aa9b2353b1ee70e4.pdf 88bb2f40eee9163df7c45f0134d9cf7f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Stevenson, Ariel. Interview transcript, April 15, 2021. Description An account of the resource Ariel Stevenson works in the Office of Inclusive Excellence at California State University San Marcos where she works closely with students to increase the diversity on campus. Stevenson has been on campus for 15 years. In this interview Stevenson discusses her impact on campus, including the way she helped get the Black Student Center open through student impact and support. She also discusses her experience as a Black student and CSUSM employee. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ariel Stevenson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-15 Subject The topic of the resource Activism, Student Anti-Black Racism California State University San Marcos, Black Student Center California State University San Marcos, Office of Inclusive Excellence Student success, Black Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Farrell (Penn.) Warren (Ohio) Reading (Penn.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Ariel Stevenson Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context StevensonAriel_FordAyana_2021-04-15_transcript Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bonnie Biggs OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_2024-03-26.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Biggs, Bonnie, and Gunnar Biggs. Interview March 26, 2024. SC027-055 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm California State University San Marcos ; Tribal libraries--Southern California ; Tribal libraries--New Mexico ; Libraries--Ghana ; Love on a Leash ; Patterson, Lotsee ; American Indian Library Association ; California Indians ; Rodriguez, Henry Nichols, 1919-2002 ; Jazz-Ghana ; Jazz musicians--Ghana ; California State University San Marcos. Tribal Liaison ; California State University San Marcos. University Library Bonnie Biggs Gunnar Biggs Judith Downie audio 1.0:|21(7)|41(9)|69(10)|94(12)|108(12)|138(11)|153(11)|167(16)|191(5)|206(5)|227(12)|244(14)|265(3)|299(15)|331(9)|346(12)|382(8)|401(11)|419(15)|431(7)|443(9)|466(6)|501(6)|528(4)|544(6)|558(5)|582(12)|612(3)|650(16)|673(5)|687(14)|710(5)|728(16)|743(16)|763(3)|777(5)|806(3)|820(8)|833(10)|857(14)|884(10)|915(9)|938(8)|966(10)|1006(17)|1032(3)|1054(6)|1094(6)|1140(5)|1162(11)|1188(3)|1217(14)|1251(2)|1279(7)|1320(8)|1347(14)|1364(4)|1375(12)|1394(10)|1431(7)|1463(6)|1489(6)|1514(3)|1530(15)|1544(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/61a0275718a0293965abb1d4b9d1ca5e.m4a Other audio English 0 Introduction and educational backgrounds Oral history interview with Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs, March 26, 2024. Interview by Judith Downie, Special Collections Librarian at CSUSM. &#13 ; &#13 ; Bonnie Biggs and Gunnar Biggs discuss their educational backgrounds and how they met. 0 160 Early professional and CSUSM history Bonnie Biggs recalls working as a public librarian in Encinitas and Solana Beach while gaining her Master's from USC. After this, she began working as an academic librarian at the SDSU North County satellite campus that would become CSUSM in 1989. Biggs recalls the various professional relationships she cultivated, and the "chaos" in transitioning SDSU to CSUSM. 0 1024 County and Tribal library cooperation In this segment, Bonnie Biggs discusses her role in facilitating cooperation between the San Diego County and Tribal libraries after the dissolution of their working relationship. This included American Indian culture fairs before the establishment of Powwows at CSUSM and most importantly gaining the trust of local Indigenous communities. In the end of this segment, Biggs and Judith Downey discuss the importance of archives in preserving, documenting, and maintaining valuable historical information. 0 1392 Powwows Before powwows were sanctioned at CSUSM, there were American Indian culture fairs. Bonnie Biggs briefly explains the necessities and process of facilitating these social gatherings for Indigenous American communities. Biggs also discusses meeting "Uncle" Henry Rodriguez, a Luiseño elder, culture bearer, and water rights activist who was a crucial to CSUSM in building the university's relationships with local tribes. 0 1759 Tenure and second sabbatical Regarding her second sabbatical, Bonnie Biggs shares her experience working with the Pueblo peoples in New Mexico. She recalls how she met her mentor Dr. Lotsee Patterson (Comanche), founder of the American Indian Library Association, who was instrumental for securing the trust of Tribal communities, and access to Tribal libraries. 0 2057 Academic Senate and Tribal Liaison This segment covers the time Bonnie Biggs served aboard the Academic Senate as vice chair for four years. Biggs shares that she chose not to serve as chair, despite being elected, and instead accepted President Karen Haynes's request to serve as the university's inaugural Tribal Liaison. Biggs considers this one of her most important accomplishments as she was able to build a trusting relationship between CSUSM and tribal communities in Southern California. Biggs also discussed founding the Native Advisory Council alongside Wendy Schlater (Luiseño). 0 2485 Therapy dogs Regarding other "firsts" at CSUSM, Bonnie recalls bringing therapy dogs to campus, and how helpful they are to not only students but staff, faculty, and administrators. A brief segment, Downey transitions to then speaking about Biggs's first sabbatical. 0 2568 First sabbatical in Ghana Narrator Downey circles back to Bonnie Biggs's first sabbatical in Ghana. Both Gunnar and Bonnie Biggs recall working with Dr. W. Komla Amoaku, former Director of Visual and Performing Arts at CSUSM and Director of the National Theater of Ghana. Gunnar recalls his experience sharing jazz knowledge as well as learning Ghanian drumming, while Bonnie recounts going on national radio to speak about the similarities between indigenous libraries in Ghana and tribal libraries in the USA. 0 2980 Additional CSU accomplishments Bonnie Biggs shares some of her other accomplishments at the CSU level, including work with the American Library Association. Bonnie once again discusses therapy dogs, through her work with Love on a Leash, as well as her continued work with the California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center at CSUSM. Finally, Bonnie and Gunnar share their culminating statements regarding their appreciation for CSUSM. 0 Bonnie Biggs was the inaugural Tribal Liaison and a Librarian Emeritus at California State University San Marcos. Gunnar Biggs has been a prominent figure in the musical environment in Southern California for over forty years, and is a retired music instructor from San Diego State University and Palomar College. In this interview, Bonnie and Gunnar recall the early history of CSUSM when it transitioned as the North County satellite campus for San Diego State University into CSUSM in 1989. Bonnie also discusses her academic and professional achievements, including her work as the university's Tribal Liaison. Bonnie and Gunnar additionally recall her sabbatical to Ghana, Ghanaian jazz music and musicians, visiting and working with tribal libraries in New Mexico, and Bonnie's most recent work with Love on a Leash. Downie: All right, so we are now running. Okay. So, this is Judith Downie, curator of the Brewchive® (archive dedicated to preserving the history of the craft brewing industry in San Diego, CA) and History Librarian and Special Collections at Cal State San Marcos, with Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs to talk about Bonnie and Gunnar's history of Cal State San Marcos and other related pieces of their lives. So, I'm, this picks up pretty well. So we shouldn't have-- Bonnie Biggs: Oh, it does. Okay. You want me to sit down? Downie: Well, or let's see. We can maybe put it between the two of you. Okay. You know, because whatever I say, I'll just say it loudly. B Biggs: Oh, okay. Downie: So, yeah, again, this will be Bonnie for the most part, but Gunnar will certainly be jumping in with memory jogs and his personal recollections as well. So, let's start off with Bonnie, your personal history. Where-- B Biggs: Okay. Downie: Where did you grow up and some background on your education. B Biggs: Okay. I grew up not far from you (referring to Downie ; laughs). I grew up in Vista, California and went to Vista High School. Then I went on to Palomar College, got an AA (Associate in Arts) degree, went to San Diego State, got a BA (Bachelor of Arts) in British Literature after the 1800s. And then onto USC (University of Southern California) for my Master's in Library Science. Downie: Okay. Gunnar, how about you? Gunnar Biggs: Oh. Downie: Where did you grow up, and your education? G Biggs: I grew up in San Diego, California, about a block from San Diego State (University ; SDSU). My father was a faculty member in the music department there. And from there I went to North Texas State University in Denton, Texas for a couple of years. Then I took a twenty-year gap, going on the road playing music. And I came back and I got my bachelor's at Cal State San Marcos in Ethnic Studies and Global Arts, after completing my general ed(ucation) at Palomar College. And that's, yeah, that's about it in terms of my education. Downie: Okay. And so where did the two of you meet? B Biggs: Jazz Club. G Biggs: It was the Hyatt Islandia on Mission Bay. (laughs) Downie: Gunnar’s got the details. (Laughs) B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a friend take me to, to hear the French horn player. They usually don't play jazz, and this phenomenal famous piano player, but I liked the bass player. G Biggs: Which is very unusual (laughter) for the bass player to get the nod, you know? B Biggs: Yeah. So that's, and that was in 1981. Downie: Alright. So, let's move on to your professional history, Bonnie. I've sketched out a timeline from what I know, but of course I can be imperfect. So, we'll start with, I know you worked in public libraries-- B Biggs: Yes. Downie: Before you moved into the academic library field. B Biggs: Yeah. I started my career at the Encinitas Library. Not the one we see now, the big beautiful one (snapping noise). But on that same site in 1973, and I worked there for nine years. And then I was moved to Solana Beach to become the branch manager for four years. And during that time, met him (Gunnar) and started going to grad school up at USC while I managed the Solana Beach Library. And when I got my master's I started looking around, and that's when I found SDSU North County. (I) was looking for a library (overlapping dialogue). Downie: So, what year would that have been? B Biggs: The SDSU North County? I would've started in 1986. Downie: Okay. B Biggs: And we were-- Downie: That was long after they had established that satellite campus (SDSU North Couty satellite campus that officially became CSUSM in 1989). B Biggs: Right. I think it had been around, I think since the late seventies. I'm sure you've got history in the (overlapping dialogue) archives. Downie: Limited history, limited history. I think it's mostly at San Diego State. B Biggs: Yeah. So, it was San Diego State North County, and I was the librarian, and under the wonderful Dick Rush (CSUSM's first executive vice president). Whom we (Bonnie and Gunnar) just saw a couple weeks ago, had lunch with him. And what was interesting, he was less interested in my librarianship as my arts and lectures chops, because I had been doing music and a lot of outreach in the public library system. And he wanted to get San Diego State North County out to the community. We were in Jerome's (furniture store in San Marcos) parking lot, right. So we started having concerts, thanks to Gunnar. We got amazing musicians and put on festivals and, you know, Mexican fiestas and jazz con- you know, jazz. It was like a festival, actually-- G Biggs: It was a jazz festival. B Biggs: So, so we started doing that. And then of course, I had to be a librarian too. That was always the thing. I had to do both. And that carried over when we (SDSU North County satellite campus) became Cal State San Marcos. Downie: So then you were at San Diego State North County while it was still in Vista (California). B Biggs: It wasn't in Vista at that time, but yeah, I know what you're talking about. It was, it had just started in San Marcos. But I know where that campus was. It was in the old Vista High, where I went to high school. So by ‘86 when I started, they had already moved into the Jerome's lot (building used for the campus that later became that furniture store). Downie: Oh, okay. That’s all very fuzzy in our records, so I've never been too sure. So that helps clarify that. B Biggs: Sandy Punch (retired CSUSM administrator) might be a good one to talk to. In fact, I have lunch with her this month. Yeah. Downie: Tell her I'm hunting for her. (laughs) B Biggs: I will, I'll do that. She'll love it. Downie: Okay. So, you were there for the transition- B Biggs: Oh, boy. Downie: To San Diego State North County. So, you never actually worked at San Diego State Libraries? B Biggs: No, San Diego State North County only. But I will tell you there, there were a couple of librarians at the main campus who were my mentors and who helped me make that transition, because it's a different world and- Downie: From public to academic. B Biggs: Oh my goodness. Yeah. So, Philip White comes to mind. He was a very, very good friend. And he even came up a couple of times. Just having to do with working with faculty, developing the collection. The trick was the faculty was changing because they were starting to phase out North Count-- Well, they were solid for a while, but we were bringing in Cal State San Marcos faculty. So at one point I was reporting to two deans. When they hired Marion (Reid), she became my dean of the library. But I also was reporting kind of to Pat Huckle, who was the dean of San Diego State North County. Whom we just saw last week. We took her to lunch. So I stay in touch with these wonderful leaders that I got to, to work with. Downie: Okay, so you didn't have to move San Diego State North County or CSUSM to the Valecito site, Jerome's (Bonnie affirms) West, as we all call it. Because it had already moved. But what sorts of, I mean, you were answering to two deans (Bonnie affirms) at the very least. But there must have been other challenges and opportunities in this whole transition from being a satellite of San Diego State University to its own freestanding Cal State San Marcos. So, what do you remember of that? B Biggs: I remember that it, I didn't know that much about academic politics at the time, but I remember there was a lot of it. And (I) started to figure out what the landscape was and just treaded very carefully, made friends with a lot of the faculty. David Whitehorse comes to mind, he’s one of my best friends there. He was San Diego State North County. And then beginning to get to know the founding faculty at Cal State (San Marcos). I remember there was a part of us at San Diego State North County who didn't want the change. We were thrilled that the state wanted to have this new university. We just had a nice little comfy warm tight-knit organization. And so, it was chaos for a while. And bringing Bill Stacy (founding president, CSUSM) on, luckily he and Dick Rush got along pretty well. As they also transitioned from one to the other. G Biggs: Didn't they fast track the change over? It was, it happened before people had-- B Biggs: Very quick. G Biggs: --predicted. It was one day they were a satellite, and the next day they said, “We're about to move to the new campus as soon as it builds in.” You know, so. B Biggs: I'm trying to think who the governor was at the time that came down. G Biggs: Yeah. It was like, it was a governor's decision to go-- B Biggs: And signed the paperwork. Downie: Was that (George) Deukmejian? (laughs) B Biggs: It wasn't, no. Wasn't (Bill) Craven. I mean, it was, was it a senator? Anyway, some, some, I have a photo in one of these somewhere of-- Downie: Well, we have a signed certificate, I think from (Governor) Gray Davis. B Biggs: That might, that was probably it. Yeah. Yeah. He would've been the governor then. Yeah. So, that was when things got a little bit strange because we started to phase things out at North County and move. And that's when we took over the other building across the street. And the library moved into that space. Marion coming from, 'cause there, there's a question here (laughs). How, you know, she didn't know what to call me or what to offer me as a position because, to have called me Assistant Dean, that implies tenure and, you know, academic credit that far exceeded what I had at the time. I was just, you know, a public librarian learning to be. So she, but generously, I think it was generous, she gave me the title of Assistant to the Dean. And of course I was that. I assisted her on many things, head of, then it became Head of Public Services, or (unintelligible), it was called Coordinator for Public Services. They call it patron, is it now, it's not public services-- Downie: User services, (overlapping) what we call it. B Biggs: User services, I like that. Yeah. And then later Arts and Lectures (curriculum-linked events produced by CSUSM College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral and Social Sciences). So there, there I had one business card with three titles on it, which I think a lot of people did at that new university. Downie: Yeah. We all had to do a variety of jobs. And we were not in the, centralized or no, I forget what the term is, but where you just kind of did things. It got done, it got taken care of, and it's gotten so much structure-- B Biggs: Crossing lines-- Downie: Permissions and paying for everything. Where it used to just be, it got done and somebody covered the cost. (Bonnie affirms). But it does seem like there would've been a lot of long hours and obviously confusion as to lines of responsibility, but it got worked out. B Biggs: It really did. Downie: Seems like. B Biggs: And luckily, on one end, we had Dick Rush who, I got to tell him at lunch a couple weeks ago, what a wonderful leader he was. He constantly took time out, when we didn't even have time to go to the bathroom or breathe and gather us around his desk or somewhere in the library, and just let us know how wonderful we were and how much our work was appreciated. And what that does, you know, it gives you a shot in the arm and you just keep going. And Pat Huckle was the one, again my other dean saying, “Bonnie, at the end of the day, it's just gonna be a dead librarian if we keep this up.” (Gunnar laughs) Meaning she got--I told her about that the other day. (Laughs) It, she gave me the permission to place some limits in my ability to do all the stuff we were required to do. We were thought to be doing. And I don't know that that slowed me down a whole lot, but-- Downie: Probably not. B Biggs: Yeah. G Biggs: Well, Dick, Dick told you the library is the heart of a university. (Bonnnie affirms). So that's where he came from. Initially it was like, build this library and you will have a successful university. So that kind of put the weight on your shoulders. (Bonnie affirms). “Okay, I gotta build the heart.” B Biggs: And the fact that he wanted the arts made such a difference in that tiny little Jerome's library, bringing the principal brass of the San Diego Symphony because of his (Gunnar) connections, for a concert. And Peter Sprague (jazz guitarist) out in the parking lot. It just, it put us on the map, in a tiny way. Because people saw, that there, there actually was a campus there kind of (laughs). Downie: Yeah. So even years later, I was at a conference and somebody said, “Oh, San Diego State North County.” I'm like, “No, we haven't been that for a number of years, thank you very much.” B Biggs: Yes, yes, yes. (laughs). Downie: But you know, if you're not right there in the thick of it, you didn’t realize-- B BIggs: It was 1989 when I think, I mean, that's a date that really sticks out, I had been there three years. And 1989 was when we were signed-- Downie: When Bill Stacy came in and-- B Biggs: Right. Downie: Brought in the founding faculty and-- B Biggs: Right. And that's-- (overlapping dialogue) Downie: --things started really changing. B Biggs: Have you gotten all the founding faculty? I'm assuming you've-- Downie: Marion got oral histories from-- B Biggs: Oh, good. Downie: --I think everybody, and it would be nice to go back to some of them and, get a looking back now, what you saw then versus what you're, what you’ve-- B Biggs: In retrospect. (overlapping dialogue) What, yeah. Downie: In retrospect view of that, that could be extremely interesting. But so, you were there to move into the permanent campus on Twin Oaks Valley Road. And that was while I was not on campus. That was during my period of exile, as I call it, after I got my master's. And I went down to United States International University. So that's, there's a chunk of campus history that I didn't personally experience-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: How long were you-- Downie: I was there eighteen months. B Biggs: At, at USIU. Downie: Yeah. B Biggs: Okay, yeah. Downie: And so, and of course-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: I forgot that. Downie: --being that the position I was in as a staff person when I left, I was not involved in planning or any of that sort of thing. (Bonnie affirms), I'm sure you were, I know Marion certainly was. Way-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: Oh yeah. Way deep. (overlapping dialogue) Downie: Way, deep, deep, deep into it. But you certainly had a lot of input as well. So, what do you remember about running up to moving onto the permanent campus at Twin Oaks Valley (Road) and then the move? Other than we had to borrow book carts from everybody, every library in the county. B Biggs: Yes. I remember that. Of course, Marion was much more in charge of that and involved. I think I was doing more hands-on and working with a few staff. We had to fill those book carts and get things moved into the library. I will say a major memory of that was that we were not invited to the groundbreaking. I just have to go on record to say that. And there were many people who had been doing that kind of work, high level work. You know, like Marion, she was there. But those of us who helped build the foundation of that university--San Diego State North County--were not invited to the groundbreaking. So that, that's something that's one of the few bitter kind of, “Really?” (Downie affirms) Kind of thing. Maybe Dick was, yeah, I'm sure he went because he had transitioned-- G Biggs: There's a picture, there's of all the shovel people-- B Biggs: All the shovels. No (San Diego State) North County people. So that was interesting. (Downie affirms) And it is kind of a blur. I mean, all of the nuts and bolts and physical work. I just remember it being a lot of physical hard work, getting--Marion probably was up here (referring to planning and coordination of the campus move) more than, you know, the moving of the materials. And-- G Biggs: They got somebody local that had a moving company to help move the collection, box them up-- B Biggs: And I, I think Jim Hanson may have helped. G Biggs: Jim Hanson was on there, but I forget who it was that had trucks. He had a moving company, right? B Biggs: I don't remember that. Downie: Well, they were, they were flatbed trucks with board sides, and we had all those book trucks. And the day we moved the collection, it was raining. So we had to wrap all the book trucks in plastic-- B Biggs: I remember that now. Downie: To move them into Craven Hall, which is now the Administration Building. B Biggs: Right. Downie: And then of course, the ceiling was leaking, even though the books were on the fourth floor, we didn't have our shelving yet. So, the books were sitting on the floor. (laughs) B Biggs: You have more memories of that-- G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: --than I do. That's interesting. I, yeah. Downie: Well, again, you had other responsibilities that you were running the arts programs and, (Bonnie affirms) you know, everything. And (overlapping dialogue) areas of responsibility. B Biggs: And all the Indian stuff had started by then too because, you know Whitehorse, the way it started was David Whitehorse (School of Education Emeritus faculty) walked into my office. He was standing as State North County faculty and said, “The plan of cooperation between the county library system and the tribes is dissolving, they’re--what can you do about it?” Like, “How do I (Biggs) know what to do about it?” (Downie laughs). So, I had started going out and working with the tribes at that point. We had American Indian Storytellings-- G Biggs: Storytelling. B Biggs: --we had the American Indian culture--we couldn't call it a powow--culture fair, inside and over at the Red Barn (Williams Barn, San Marcos, California). So I was kind of doing a lot of that stuff at the same time. That's why I don't have really clear memories of the actual movement of the books. But-- G Biggs: That’s where you met Uncle Henry (Rodriguez ; Native American water rights activist ; instrumental in preserving indigenous California culture) was at the, at the storytellings. B Biggs: Yeah. He was, yes. G Biggs: I see that down there, yeah. Downie: So that really kind of segues beautifully into the next session, which is your work with the local tribes, the California tribal libraries. So, how did you actually become interested in this particular part of our population? B Biggs: Yeah. Well, David Whitehorse told me I had to (combined laughter). I mean, when he said, when I looked at the plan of cooperation it was a plan, very loose plan that the San Diego County Library system, which is thirty-three branches from Otay Mesa to Fallbrook. And the system I came from, they had a plan of cooperation. It just meant that they would do some interlibrary loan and maybe occasionally go out and help, you know, people with collection development. But it all of a sudden was dissolving. And so, I'm trying to think of the timing. It was at a time, one of those times when the budget was going to hell in California. So, they were pulling funding back and staffing ability to go out and even do the little bit that they were doing. So, David wanted to know what I was gonna do about it. So, I did start going out to some of the local libraries: Pala, Rincon, Pauma, La Jolla, San Pasquale, just the local, the most local (to North County San Diego), not south. There were no casinos for many years until after I started working with them (California tribal libraries). So, it was more just about getting an assessment of who had what. Some of them had combination museums and libraries, which is not uncommon on most tribal land. So, I just started developing. I would say, and I tell people this, it took seven years to get totally trusted and implanted into the culture. You don't just go out and say, “Hi, I'm a white librarian, I'm gonna help you out.” (Laughs) It really did take years and years and years. But doing things like “Prez to the Rez,” taking the (university) presidents out there developing tribal communities, task forces, I'm getting ahead of myself, but that, it was that kind of stuff that gained the trust of the tribal communities. And the big part of that, ultimately, first it was, do something because the library system is abandoning them. But the more important thing was we need to get these Indian students to the university to trust coming to a university. Lots of history on that, you know, with what we did to native people in boarding schools. So, it really did take a long time to gain the trust, and the numbers show now that our native population at the university is one of the highest, last I looked, in all the CSUs (California State Universities). So, and we were the first to have a tribal liaison. And it was Tish (Tishmall Turner). No, it wasn’t (laughs). You saw that. That was a-- Downie: Well, this is a problem with a lot of the firsts that we've done on the campus is nobody stopped to think, this is the first we need, we need to record this somewhere. And responsibilities have moved from department to department. From unit to unit. Across. And then we've had changes in presidents, changes in everything. B Biggs: Deans and-- Downie: So after a while, yes, it gets lost. B Biggs: That's why archives are so, I mean seriously, it's so important, especially with a university this young. You got, I'm glad Jen (Fabbi) is moving there (to CSUSM’s Special Collections). I mean, you need all the help you can get, and you've got an opportunity before it gets too far down the road to capture all this amazing history. Downie: Cause we've already lost some very key players. That, you know, you can't go and interview them now. Unfortunately. B Biggs: No. No, I know. Downie: So, yeah. So it's become, becoming more critical all the time. B Biggs: Yeah. Did somebody, I'm sure they did. They must have interviewed Dick Rush at some point. So-- Downie: Nobody's interviewed Dick Rush yet. B Biggs: Wow. Downie: Yeah. No, we, we have his papers. I mean, he doc-- B Biggs: He did. That's right. Downie: We have more paper from Dick Rush in boxes in Special Collections than from anybody else. G Biggs: Do you (Bonnie) still have your yellow legal pad thing where Dick had (overlapping dialogue) bullets for what, what he wanted you to do? Handwritten. B Biggs: We’ll have to find that. But, you know, we're gonna go up mid-April, just for a two-night trip for our anniversary, our fortieth anniversary. And we're gonna see Dick probably, we'll probably stop in Camarillo (city in California). And should I ask him if he is interested in being interviewed? Downie: Yeah, please. B Biggs: Okay. That would, wow. I mean, because beyond those boxes, this is somebody-- Downie: Oh, there's so much more. B Biggs: Somebody who really, really knows the story. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, because he was there from ground zero, basically. B Biggs: He was a British literature professor at (Downie laughs) San Diego State. Downie: Those Brit Lit people, I tell you. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Downie: So I know that you have mentioned to me over time that you went, you know, when you were first working with the tribal libraries, that you would go to tribal councils and you would just sit there and just listen. (Bonnie affirms) And, you know, speak when you were spoken to or invited to speak, things like that. But where did you meet Uncle Henry (Rodriguez)? B Biggs: I think at a powwow (a social gathering celebrating Indigenous American culture). G Biggs: Or a, well, there's a picture of him at the Red Barn with Lee Dixon (Pauma Band of Mission Indians). And- B Biggs: So it would've been the American Indian-- G Biggs: Find that picture-- B Biggs: --culture fair, we couldn't have powwows yet. And David (Whitehorse) helped organize those. So that was when we were still San Diego State North County. And he (Rodriguez) was always invited as an elder to give the blessing. And he did that for us until the day he died. But commencements and powwows, so met him there. I'm trying to think how I got close to him. Just got close to him. Downie: He was a very astute man. (Bonnie affirms) He probably saw your empathy and connection. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And he knew I was working with the tribal libraries. I'd come, I'd go to the La Jolla Reservation, which is way up Palomar Mountain. They had like a room with- so many of these libraries all around the country, really. Or a couple of shelves of books. One of them at Manzanita (Reservation of the Manzanita Band of the Kumeyaay Nation), I think was a bookshelf in a fire department. That was their library, you know, and people took me in and said, “Here's our library.” And yeah. So, Henry (Rodriguez) knew I was doing that work, and yeah. He knew I--to say in Luiseño, I had a good heart, I guess is. Downie: Okay. And you've already talked about bringing the powwow to campus, but it was the American Cultural Fair. Before the American Indian Cultural Fair. Before it was actually a powwow. What were the mechanisms by where it could become a powwow? B Biggs: Yeah. It had to be, of course outside, and with a number of different things, different dancers, different singers. Bird songs are important for local culture. So it, you saw a couple of them, I'm sure. It's huge. It's not something that you hold inside. So the parameters are really about dancers and music and a processional. So Henry (Rodriguez) would often, with me and Whitehorse, lead the procession. There's a blessing of the field. So, probably an Indian person could tell you more what the specifics were you, you would have a--what was Randy Edmonds (American Indian Tribal Leader)? Barry, what was Randy Edmonds? G Biggs: Randy Edmonds was the MC. B Biggs: He was the master of ceremony. So, so- Downie: Randy’s last name? B Biggs: Randy Edmonds. Downie: Edmonds. B Biggs: And he's still alive. I just heard something about him the other day. So, there were just a whole bunch of things. The idea of the American Indian Culture Fair was to at least get people used to it. So there would be a prayer and a blessing at a table. Got pictures of that stuff going with Henry. But, and I think they could do like a few small bird songs and maybe a little, you know, dances. But, they would have booths. And it was just a mini powwow is the best way to describe it. Powwow didn't happen till we moved to the campus. And we had that lower field, which I think is soccer now. Downie: It's used a lot for soccer, but I think it could be used for other sports as well. Yeah, it's right down there at the, on the corner of the entrance on Twin Oak Valley Road. B Biggs: Right. We always drive by when I'm on campus, “There's the powwow field.” That was huge. And I don't know if you know there's an Indian store over here (referencing a picture). They just closed or they're moving this. Downie: Oh, they closed. B Biggs: Yeah, but we were in there and recently just to help with any, you know, buying things. And the guy said, I said, “Do you remember me? I,” and he goes, “Oh yeah. Was (referring to the CSUSM American Indian Cultural Fair) the best organized powwow ever.” Because they went to all the tribes. Downie: Oh, I'm sure they did. B Biggs: I said, “It's because a librarian organized it.” (laughter ; overlapping dialogue) Librarians-- Downie( Exactly. You put a librarian on it, it's gonna be organized. B Biggs: I know. He was. Yeah. So, they were always there and selling things. What were you trying to- G Biggs: I was trying to find that picture of the lineup. B Biggs: The perfect processional, yeah. G Biggs: Lee Dixon, who's passed away. Jane Dumas. David Whitehorse, Uncle Henry. You (Bonnie Biggs) and somebody else, they're all lined up. But that was in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Downie: We have a few pictures of the Cultural Fair, what was going on in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: And-- G Biggs: Yeah, Randy Edmonds charged me with carrying Carol Bonomo (CSUSM Administrator Emeritus) out of the arena. They had just smudged blessed the arena, and you weren't, you weren't to enter the arena after that. And Carol comes across there and Randy goes, “Go get her and get her out of there.” So, I had to pick up Carol and-- B Biggs: Small, she's small. (overlapping dialogue ; laughter) G Biggs: I know. And carry her out the arena, kicking and screaming. She tells that story all the time. B Biggs: All the time. Yeah. She loves that story. G Biggs: And I said, “It's not me! I was told to do this, so I do this.” B Biggs: (laughs) It was, yeah. G Biggs: But there's certain protocols for the, like that. You don't enter the arena after it's been blessed and stuff like that. B Biggs: And I don't, I can't even remember how many years it went on, but after many years I think I was starting to think about retirement, but the students took over. Downie: Yeah, the American Indian Student Alliance. B Biggs: And it didn’t-- Downie: They did it, I think, for two years. And then being that the student population changes, you don't have the continuity that you have-- B Biggs: Exactly. Downie: --of actual employed staff and faculty to lead something. I mean, I've seen that happen so many times with the student organizations. They'll be there for a year or so, and then the person who was excited and found it, graduates. Good for them. Yes. But then they haven't developed a line of succession either. (Bonnie affirms) And then something else will pop up. But-- B Biggs: Yeah, that was unfortunate. And people were sad about it. And I think right after that, either I was going up for tenure--that's what it was, Whitehorse and I finally said, “You know, we better do this tenure thing.” And so suddenly I started publishing, you know, in a flying hurry. I'd done some, and then that's what it was. Yeah, we both had to step down. Downie: Tenure becomes quite the time suck. B Biggs: I'll never forget Dick (Rush) telling me, because I was just being a librarian, I didn't understand the whole, again because I wasn't really part of yet of the faculty. Downie: Well, we didn't have a faculty mentorship program that we do now. There was really, you were just doing what had to be done. And hopefully somebody told you. B Biggs: All of sudden, oh, you're supposed to write about this. Okay. And that was another thing, is doing all of the publications I did, all had to do with tribal libraries. You have to be careful, you know, and respectful, and vet things. And so that was, that sort of added to the lengths of time to get things done. Downie: And so, as part of your scholarly work of course, was the California Tribal Library Survey, which that was, was on a sabbatical, right? B Biggs: You know, the, the strange thing was the first sabbatical was Africa, right after I got tenure. And then the State Library of California paid my--paid the university, gave Marion money to cover me while I did that survey. The second actual one was going around and doing the New Mexico Pueblos. So that was my sabbatical. The second one. Yeah, the first one was right, you know right after you get tenure, you get a sabbatical. That was Africa. And-- Downie: Well, now you can apply for a sabbatical and hope you get one. (laughs) B Biggs: Hope you get one. Exactly. And the, and the second one, and I'm trying to remember how long afterwards that was. G Biggs: What, Africa? Downie: It's usually (overlapping dialogue) every six years-- B Biggs: Yeah, something like that. Yeah. And then, but the, the census and needs assessment for the State Library of California was just a thing that they asked me to do because I'd become involved in, so that took us all the way up to a sheet. Yeah. So-- Downie: And that was 2001, 2002, as it says on the spine, a very fat binder. (laughter) B Biggs: Yes. Of a very fat binder. And he (Gunnar) was on that one. I have no sense of direction. So, Gunnar drove me. Not only there, because a lot of the you know, reservations are really way out there and not very well signed. You see the signages, “Go three rocks up past the, you know, the oak tree and turn left.” Same thing with going around to the Pueblos in New Mexico. And I went on that trip because Lotsee Patterson (librarian and founder of the American Indian Library Association), my mentor, said that the best tribal library system in the country was within the pueblos of New Mexico (referring to the physical establishments of the Pueblo peoples). And that's because she helped guide them along for decades. And it was an amazing trip. Downie: And how did you meet Lotsee? B Biggs: At an AL- AILA, American Indian Library Association meeting. And we rode in a taxi somewhere, and I remember-- G Biggs: Chicago. B Biggs: --remember thinking, “Oh my God, I'm in a taxi with Lotsee Paterson.” (laughter) And she was the most likable, lovable, again, we talked to her just a few weeks ago. She got her materials to Sean (Visintainer ; Head of CSUSM Special Collections) for, yeah. But she's the one, I mean, everything really centers around her. And we just became friends and I guess kind of a, she was kind of a mentor and a not in a real strict way but she, just by way of being around her she was mentoring me. Downie: Well, I think that's a very much cultural way is just simply organically as it happens, you pass your knowledge onto someone else rather than the formal academic environment that you know, we commonly think of. G Biggs: She would take the students on a summer trip to the pueblos. And we would, we tagged along on one of those. So, in desert summer in New Mexico with our dog in the car and everything, but we would go to library to library, and she (Patterson) would know everybody. Down to the tribal policeman that tried to throw us out once, you know. “How's your cousin doing?” And he'd look at her and he'd go, “Oh my goodness, go ahead.” You know. (laughter) But without those kind of inroads, you don't just walk into a-- B Biggs: And she helped me get entre into all of the, all of the Pueblos who are just phenomenal people. Yeah. Downie: Lots of, lots of accomplishments there. So that will bring us onto your other career accomplishments. On campus, I know that you were the first librarian faculty to serve as the Academic Senate chair, which was a pretty big deal because there weren't too many of us librarians (Bonnie affirms). G Biggs: --weren’t Chair though. Downie: Number one (laughs). B Biggs: Right. There weren't, and, but the deal was, this is very strange, and I have to find it. I'd been senate vice chair for maybe four years, and I think by the time Bud Morris (Dr. G.H. “Bud” Morris ; professor of communications and former Academic Senate chair) was ready to step down, I said, “Okay, I will go ahead and do this.” But I stepped out. I didn't, I ended up not serving as chair. And it was because I was getting ready to retire. I think that would've been 2004. And Karen (Haynes ; President of CSUSM 2004 to 2019) had just said to me, “Will you be tribal liaison?” So, I ended up not serving. I think I was the only person who was voted, and also the only person who ever said, “I'm not gonna do it.” And that was, that was a big stink. And even Alex Gonzalez (former CSUSM President 1997-2003) was pissed at me (Gunnar laughs). I hated--didn't care for him. (laughs) But no so I didn't, but I served certainly for, I don't know, fifteen years on the executive committee and then four years as vice chair. Ick. Ick. Downie: That was certainly long enough. But, that's what people had to do. I mean, there weren't that many people to serve in positions. Patty Seleski (CSUSM Professor Emerita) was, what, History Department chair for twelve years? (Bonnie affirms) Because she just said, “I'll take it on, because the junior faculty need to be able to work and get their tenure.” (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: And do their research, and yeah. Exactly. Downie: So, we made sacrifices in some ways. B Biggs: We just talked to Pat (Seleski) last week when we went down. She's almost blind now, but she said that she was senate chair for three years straight. I don't think we've had anyone do that many years straight. Have we? Downie: Somebody recently did do I think two terms. B Biggs: Okay. Downie: But that was when it was one-year terms. Now it's become a two-year term. B Biggs: Has it? Okay. Downie: Glen Brodowsky (CSUSM Marketing Professor) is chair right now. B Biggs: Glen is, and he was always on (academic) senate with me. (overlapping dialogue) I love Glen. Downie: So, but any other firsts that you did? I mean, you certainly started the Arts and Lectures program. You certainly brought, you know, the tribal collaboration and partnerships to campus. But what, what other sorts of things? B Biggs: Firsts? G Biggs: Tribal liaison. Tribal Liaison. B Biggs: Oh, the tribal liaison I think is really important because, there were none anywhere. And so, establishing those relationships in the tribal communities task force, sort of paved the road. You read that history that I corrected that went to Patricia, Patricia (Prado)-Olmos. So, I think that that's probably, if I were to say the one thing I was most proud of, is that we established a position on campus that was about serving native communities. And then now that, I understand that they've got a couple in other CSUs, they have something. Maybe not the exact title at SDSU. And then the UCs (Universities of California) got a couple now. But we didn't have, there wasn't anyone. And yeah, I didn't like the fact that it was forgotten that there was someone who was before Tishmall. But getting Tishmall there as a local Luiseño tribal member was so important. Getting Joely Proudfit (Department Chair and Professor, American Indian Studies Department) to come to campus was, that was amazing. You know we lured her away from CSU San Bernadino, and to get a couple of local tribal people, really what that does is it opens the door for native students. I mean, we started that by having our tribal community task force. We go out to the rez, “Prez to the Rez”. We do things out there to bring people in. Untrusting native students and families started to see that we were a safe place for them to come. But the tribal liaison position, probably I would say, I would think the most important thing that I accomplished. Downie: Would you say, if I remember correctly, San Diego County has more tribes than any other county in California? B Biggs: Federally recognized. Yeah. Downie: Federally recognized. Okay. Would you say that was maybe one of the reasons that we could be the first in that? Because-- B Biggs: I would think so. Downie: --there was just a larger population to work with. B Biggs: We had a larger population, and we had, we were young enough. Karen Haynes was one hundred percent behind it. I was on her search committee, and I got to ask one question, each of the faculty members (got to ask one question). And mine was, “We have nineteen federally recognized tribes in the county of San Diego. What do you think you would like to do, if you became president, about that?” And she said, “First of all, I would talk to people who know about it, and know what the needs are, and want to meet with the native people.” And I was like, “You're hired.” Downie: Ding, ding, ding, ding. (laughter) B Biggs: You're hired. So it was really having a leader on campus who was one hundred percent behind doing this work. And she came to a number of our, before we had NAC (Native Advisory Council), came to a lot of our tribal communities task force meetings, just to hear--that was getting people from business, you know, you think it's- Who, Raj (Dr. Rajnandini, CSUSM Professor of Management)? Is Raj still there? Downie: I believe so, yeah. B Biggs: And Glen Brodowsky. Folks that you wouldn't think would have anything to do with this stuff all had input and all had ways to take their resources and their knowledge base out to the reservation. Or their advice to the reservation to help-- Downie: And NAC is Native Advisory Council? B Biggs: Yeah. And that, that evolved. You know, so Wendy Schlater (member of the La Jolla Band of Luiseño, elected vice chairwoman of that tribe in 2019) from La Jolla rez, Henry’s rez, and I went to President Hayes and said, “We need-“ you know, there was at the time what they call Latin- Latino Faculty and Staff-- G Biggs: LAFS- B Biggs: LAFS. G Biggs: Latin American Faculty and Staff. B Biggs: And then they had just started an African American council. So, I thought, you know, we should--especially because we have so many tribes in the area, and it was time. And they're still meeting. I'm not going anymore. But, but it's wonderful that, that they are meeting and that, and I believe President Neufeldt (CSUSM President Ellen J. Neufeldt, appointed in 2019) is behind everything I've worked with her on having to do with the tribes. She's very-- Downie: It dovetails nicely with her social mobility focus. B Biggs: Right. It does. Yeah. Downie: Okay. So-- B Biggs: Oh, another first on campus was bringing therapy dogs. Downie: Okay, well-- G Biggs: It's down here. B Biggs: Oh, is it on here? (laughs) G Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) I see it right at the bottom there. B Biggs: Oh, is it really? G Biggs: Right at the bottom. Downie: But no, that's I think perfectly. That's, that's a wonderful first. Yeah. I think that's been done, you know, like in the county libraries of the public libraries, there's been the reading to dogs. So, it's not like it was completely foreign to people that dogs could be used in a very positive way. Other than just simply assistance animals. And there's nothing simple about that. But you know, the therapy dogs and the comfort or support dogs and things like that. I haven't seen a support alligator on campus yet, thankfully. Or a support snake. Any, any kind of reptile. Haven't seen those yet. But it does seem like it's being a more acceptable thing, but just the bringing them on right at finals time. (Bonnie affirms) To give students another form of release is, it's obviously quite popular. I walk out to see you and, you know, there are just students everywhere, you know, coming by, you know? Kids that didn't know about it are coming by and just, “Oh, well I gotta stop and touch a puppy.” B Biggs: And faculty and staff. And administrators-- G Biggs: Presidents. Downie: Yes. We all need it. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Librarians. Yeah. Downie: Okay. So we can move on to some of your other career accomplishments beyond the firsts. You did do a sabbatical in Ghana, and wasn't that one of the first internationally, international-- B Biggs: Might have been. I don't know who else had gone-- Downie: --sabbaticals. I don't have a list of who's done a sabbatical when and where they went, but it doesn't seem like we had too many faculty-- B Biggs: Not that many of them-- Downie: --that were internationally focused the way you were on this. B Biggs: And there was somehow money. It was obviously Komla Amoaku (Dr. W. Komla Amoaku, former Director of Visual and Performing Arts at CSUSM) who got me interested because they do have what I would call tribal libraries, or libraries formed by indigenous people in Ghana. And so, he got money through the-- G Biggs: United States (overlapping dialogue) Information, USIA. B Biggs: So, so a little bit of money to help fund that. We of course got some money from the university I guess, to go, but we ended up paying your (Gunnar’s) way. G Biggs: Yeah. Thanks. B Biggs: For everything. And we stayed at a woman's home, auntie-- G Biggs: Jane Korontang. B Biggs: Korontang-- G Biggs: On Labadi Beach on the Gulf of Guinea. B Biggs: So Komla-- Downie: I may have to ask for spelling. (laughter) B Biggs: Komla got us connected everywhere. And we had a--but it, but again, it was to go around and talk with people in libraries that again, were kind of like the tribal libraries here. Some pretty well formed, some others, very slim, I would say. But the thing about Ghana was Komla was very involved in the music world there. He was the director-- G Biggs: Director. B Biggs: Of the national Symphony-- G Biggs: Theater. B Biggs: Symphony or Orchestra? G Biggs: National Theater of Ghana. B Biggs: National Theater of Ghana-- G Biggs: Which was an umbrella organization for all the arts-- B Biggs: For all the arts-- G Biggs: Music, theater, et. cetera-- B Biggs: So he ended up getting this one. It was like my sabbatical. And he (Gunnar) was the star. (laughs) G Biggs: No. No. B Biggs: He had, he had you conduct the-- G Biggs: Well, I, we went to hear a concert of the National Symphony of Ghana which was, it's a long story, so I won't go into it now, but it was really a treat. And the next day, Komla said, “Would you go to their rehearsal and talk to them about their performance?” So I did. And it was amazing, you know, and they had me conduct a piece during the rehearsal. But they were using some like, traditional African instruments in a symphony orchestra. That was just ridiculous. I mean, it was so good. And they--I found out that they didn't have strings for the--they didn't have a, they would break a string and they would find some way to make a string. Downie: Oh, wow. G Biggs: So when I got back, what I did is I asked all my symphony friends, I said, “If you have old sets of strings, tuners, anything that would be violin, viola, cello, or bass, give them to me. I'll get them to Ghana.” So, I sent a whole care package. They couldn't tune up. They didn't have a piano that was in tune, so I sent them tuners and things like that. But-- B Biggs: And the other, there are a lot of stories, but the other thing about him is we went to a couple of jazz clubs. G Biggs: Which we didn't know existed in the first place-- B Biggs: In the first place. G Biggs: --there were jazz clubs in Accra (capital of Ghana), the main-- B Biggs: But we walked in and Komla introduced him (Gunnar) as this big jazz star. And he ended up showing the African musicians how to play jazz, which is some funny stuff. I mean, jazz originated in Africa. And the rhythmic foundations of jazz-- G Biggs: Well, the head of USIS, United States Information Service, Nick Robertson, who lived in Ojai (California). Anyway, he was a jazz vibraphone player. He played vibes. And he had gotten together, we got some music sent over. Some musicians in Accra, to form a band, at the place called The Bassline. B Biggs: As in bass line. G Biggs: It was amazing, you know? And so I sat in and then, then he said, “We're gonna close the club tomorrow, and you're gonna do a clinic.” I said, “Okay!” (laughter) And then here, and I felt so outta place, because here I am trying to show them the idiom of American jazz, which wouldn't exist were it not for West African influences, ‘cause they had a little couple of pieces of the puzzle rearranged, kind of, and it turned-- B Biggs: By the end of the night, they were-- G Biggs: By the end of the night, they-- B Biggs: They totally had it. G Biggs: They got it immediately. And so I got to-- Downie: Well, they had the foundation. G Biggs: Yeah. So I got to sit in every-- Downie: It morphed into something different-- Downie: So I got to sit in a bunch and play. B Biggs: And then Komla took them out in the country and played with a whole bunch of African drummers, and Gunnar sitting there trying to do the, like the apentemma drum. And this little seven year-- Downie: Well, I remember Gunnar playing in Komla’s-- B Biggs: Yes, yes-- Downie: Classes and things. You know, the performances that-- B Biggs: That's right. Downie: What was the name of the-- B Biggs: Sankofa? (Dr. Amoaku’s Artists in Residence group, which CSUSM granted a stipend to support the university mission of diversity through arts.) G Biggs: Sankofa. Downie: Sankofa. That you would do-- G Biggs: Well, I knew enough to be dangerous (laughter). But when he took us to his home in Ho (Ghana), which was way up in the northern Volta region, they had these people waiting for us when we drove in, it was like midnight. And all the kids were gonna dance and drum for us. And they asked me to sit in again. So I'm playing this one part, and it's like, I remember this eight-year-old little boy going, “Yes, no, no, no, no. Yes. That's it. No, no, no.” (laughter). So I'm being totally humbled to the roots. B Biggs: By an 8-year-old. (laughter) G Biggs: But I remember everything he told me. B Biggs: Everything, yeah G Biggs: I mean, so-- B Biggs: So, anyway, it was my sabbatical. But he was the superstar. G Biggs: No, I didn't get on national radio. B Biggs: I got on national radio but what, but they would not let him come in. They actually had people with guns-- G Biggs: Fifty caliber gunmen placements. B Biggs: Over I guess, you know in, for national radio in a country that, I mean, there really weren't bad things going on-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Well, if there, if there's a coup, the first thing-- B Biggs: They go-- G Biggs: --people do is they take over the national communicate television and radio. Downie: Oh, true. Yeah. G Biggs: So they had these guys with helmets and fifty caliber machine guns. And you were, if you weren't on the list, they'd point the gun at you to keep walking. B Biggs: Gunnar was like, “I think I'll wait in the car for you.” G Biggs: I moved back to the, yeah-- B Biggs: It was just a quick interview. But about-- G Biggs: It was a good interview! B Biggs: --tribal. And it was a, it was nice in the interview to be able to talk about some of the similarities between the indigenous library, libraries in Ghana and the tribal libraries here in the country. So it was-- G Biggs: You did that at the University of Ghana too, remember? You went in there and you talked with them? B Biggs: I think so. G Biggs: Yeah. I was in the car waiting again. (laughter) B Biggs: You were probably, yeah. Yeah. G Biggs: But you talked to people at the university. B Biggs: And I may have at the university of--where did we go? British Columbia (Canada), I think I talked about, had an opportunity to, one of the many you know talks was to talk about that there are indigenous libraries in Africa as well. So, it was fun. What else? But yeah, his story, I mean, he was “Mr. Superstar” there. Yeah, you were. Yep. Downie: Okay. So well, we'll move on out of Africa and come back to the states here. (laughter) Talk about anything, anything you did at the CSU level rather than campus level. Anything that you did? B Biggs: Lots of talks. I'm trying to think. I actually got involved in development at one point. Fundraising. Downie: I kind of remember that. You were doing some fundraising. B Biggs: And there was a group that was formed out of San Luis Obispo, on librarians who were involved in development. I'm trying to make, remember the name of that group? Do you remember that? G Biggs: No. What about the California State Library? Recognizing. B Biggs: Oh, yeah. I mean, but that's not the CSU. G Biggs: No, but under this career accomplishment thing. B Biggs: Yeah, well that was a big one. Was the, you know, the assessment thing. That came out of having a relationship with a woman I met through AILA (American Indian Library Association), American Indian. She went on to become the state tribal library coordinator. Susan Hanks, I don't know if you remember Susan's name. Downie: That name sounds vaguely familiar-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Which didn't exist before you. B Biggs: Yeah, she, well, yeah. G Biggs: Sorry. B Biggs: National. ALA (American Library Association). I actually went from being involved with ALA with more, much more with AILA (American Indian Library Association). I would go to ALA meetings. But it was all about, you know, going to the AILA meetings. Downie: But you were the first non-Indian president-- B Biggs: President, of AILA. Yeah. And that's Lotsee’s (referring to Patterson) fault. She pushed me down that road. (laughter) G Biggs: And you got an award for a Librarian of the Year for-- B Biggs: Yeah, it was-- G Biggs: What was that award? B Biggs: I don't know. The plaque is in there. Downie: I remember typing up some of the newsletters for AILA. Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: I was your support person with Arts and Lectures. B Biggs: That's right. Right. It, I think they still have the group, and I wanna think it's Librarians of Color, which I'm not that colorful. I am part Cherokee, but I don't, I don't talk about that to, what's it called? Joint Conference Librarians of Color Distinguished Service Award. Yeah. Oh, that was a, what was the one we did the talk at? In the--people from--that were the Whakatau (pronounced with a “ph” sound). G Biggs: Whakahau. B Biggs: That was their actual name. G Biggs: They were Māori. B Biggs: Māori. G Biggs: Māori. B Biggs: And, and it was- G Biggs: New Zealand. B Biggs: Yeah. Indigenous First Peoples from all over the world. And that was, that was through AILA, my part was through AILA, but it was with International Indigenous Librarians (Forum, advocacy group for indigenous peoples in library systems). Yeah. Downie: Your influence-- B Biggs: This is bringing back weird memories, God. That's where they put him (Gunnar) in charge of helping. And he had like these five Indian women that were telling him what to do and how to do it. And he was like, “Whatever you say.” Downie: Whatever you want. (laughter) B Biggs: Palomar Library Association. Wow. Downie: Because I know you were, you would've been involved early on. B Biggs: Way early on. Yeah. Yeah. You were too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, I edited the newsletter for ten years. B Biggs: Right, right. Downie: But that was also what opened my contacts to where when I first, when I finished my master's, Connie Constantino (former Library Director, United States International University) reached out to me. And I knew her through Palomar Library Association. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. So do they still exist? Downie: No. It became San Diego Region Library Association. And then a couple years later it folded. There, just, I think there were too many divergent interests going on. And again, it's kind of like students you know, when they graduate out, you know, you gotta have at least one driving force. And I think we came to a period where it just wasn't a driving force anymore. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Not sure how far and deep I was involved with-- Downie: I know (overlapping dialogue) I've seen some photographs of you at events. B Biggs: At events, yeah. Downie: Because I just saw Alice Rigg (former president of the Palomar Library Association)-- B Biggs: Wow. Downie: About a month ago. B Biggs: Carolyn's in touch with her. Downie: Yeah. Carolyn (Funes) got in touch with me to get in touch with Alice. And Alice is moving, downsizing and moving in with her son, and so she found a couple of old photograph binders of early-- B Biggs: Wow. And she was pretty involved, right? (Downie affirms) I mean, she was, yeah. Yeah. Downie: It seemed like the public librarians were much more involved in Palomar Library Association than the academics were. I think because we probably just, we were also having-- B Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) Had all these other--yeah. Downie: --to publish and research and everything else, where the public librarians, this was a way for them to see each other and be able to congregate. Cause a lot of them couldn't go to ALA and stuff like that. There just wasn't any funding for the public librarians. B Biggs: I hadn't thought about Connie Constantino in forever-- G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Downie: But yeah. Were you there when they started the scholarship? Okay. B Biggs: I don't think so. Downie: Okay, because I know they had this scholarship. B Biggs: But I remember someone getting it. Yeah. I'm trying to think who. Downie: Cause I, I haven't been able to track down the memories of how the scholarship got started. B Biggs: Does Alice know? Have you talked to her or? Downie: She wasn't feeling too terribly well that day, so-- B Biggs: Okay. Downie: --no, I didn't really push her for a lot of stuff, but yeah. I may reach out to her again. So yeah, bringing up those old memories. (laughs) B Biggs: I mean, PLA (Palomar Library Association), I hadn't thought about that in forever. Well, PLA is also Public Library Association. (Downie affirms) But I mean, but the Palomar-- Downie: But Palomar. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Downie: But well, anyway, let's move on to your post-retirement work, because you certainly haven't rested on your laurels, so to speak. You've continued a lot of your initiatives and then you've also gone and done Love on a Leash (nonprofit organization providing pet therapy). But, I know that your liaison work, a lot of it was after you retired from the library. B Biggs: Right. So, Karen Haynes asked me to serve as tribal liaison. She was upset I was retiring as soon as I did. I think I was only sixty. G Biggs: You did it. You bought time. So it was early sixty. B Biggs: I bought time. So, so I was young, but I was ready. I mean, putting in twenty-two years at that, you know, place that the university was at was like putting in forty-four (laughs) in terms of-- Downie: It was a lot of work. B Biggs: --just everything starting from scratch. So, I was ready to retire. She (Haynes) asked me if I would stay on and do, and I got to just pick my hours work from home. I was on the rez ninety percent of the time. But that's when the, the community task force was really underway. And that's when we started NAC. And I stayed on NAC until just this year. So, I retired in 2007 totally, like stopped being tribal liaison in 2007. Retired as faculty in 2004. I am still, I guess, on the California Indian Sovereignty--Culture and Sovereignty Center (CICSC ; founded in 2009). I keep trying not to be, but I'm on. And so the things I continue to stay involved with, I'm trying to help this new Mejaumi (Franco-Rosales) who is replacing Tish(mall Turner) or filling some kind of tribal projects role until they find a tribal liaison. So I'm doing that. The big work now is working with Donna (Uchimura), Uncle Henry's daughter, to get Uncle Henry's archives digitized and to make sure that the family has a great deal of input and oversight. And so that one, that one's happening right now. I understand that Donna has let Joely (Proudfit) know who she wants to be on this committee. When Joely said she wanted to have a committee in this meeting with Donna, my first thought was, “You know what committee means to us.” (laughs) I thought, “Oh my gosh.” So, walking across the bridge with Donna, I said, “You know, you involve family to the extent that you want them.” And so (noise of a phone chime) she's done that. And Sean, she wants Sean (Visintainer). And she knows I'm trying to take a step back, but it's the one thing I can't not do. I just can't, for Henry's sake, I can't abandon the family until that’s done. Downie: Well, that and all parties trust you. You know, and you have such a long-established history of doing what's right and-- B Biggs: Yeah, there is trust. Downie: --I don’t think everybody else see their--see the path forward. It's very important. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And I stay in touch. You know, we just visited Pala (reservation) a couple weeks ago. Walked in and there's Chairman (Robert) Smith sitting there, but these are, these are people now who are Casino rich. And you know, so it's a whole different world, but they're just still folks who remember Gunnar and I putting books on a cart and running it over from a little trailer into the new building. So, we still have a relationship with a lot of those libraries. Rincon (California), we recently went out and gave them materials on Luiseño songs. G Biggs: Do you hear Zuni? (family dog) B Biggs: Is she in her dream? G Biggs: She's chirping. (laughs) B Biggs: She's having a dream. (laughs) Downie: And you know, because I worked under you as support staff for what was supposed to be a seven-month appointment, if I remember correctly-- B Biggs: Yes. Downie: Well it turned into four years! B Biggs: I know. Downie: But I would go home at night and I would talk to Dennis and Delaine about what was going on. And I mentioned your work with the tribal libraries. And do you remember Delaine's book project, where she gathered books from-- B Biggs: Oh, yeah. Downie: --from her elementary school to donate? B Biggs: Yes. I forgot all about that. Wow. Downie: No. That she, she came up with that idea on her own and, you know-- G Biggs: That's too cool. Downie: --I was so proud of her for doing that. But you know, you have inspired things to go out beyond your own efforts, which I think is really important. B Biggs: Oh, that's beautiful. Tell her thank you. (Gunnar laughs) Downie: I will. B Biggs: And can she fix my iPhone? No. (laughter) She works for Apple, right? Downie: She does. B Biggs: Check it out. Somebody you wanna know (laughter). One beautiful overlapping of that, is we have gone out twice, maybe three times, with therapy dogs to the Little Feathers School at Pala Library. So there's the library, and now there's Little Feathers School. Downie: Good. B Biggs: And I've talked a couple of really good friends into--I’ll drive, and it's a long drive--and to go out and take therapy dogs to-- Downie: Oh, that’s wonderful. B Biggs: --tribal kids. Yeah. So that, I have to set it up with her again to do that. But that, so that's like both worlds coming back together again, which is-- Downie: Because-- B Biggs: --a beautiful-- Downie: You, you've mentioned this, but there is Love on a Leash, which seems to be a huge portion of your life now. I mean, you were president of the local, the local chapter, right? B Biggs: Right. And National. G Biggs: National. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And vice president for ten years, and still very, very involved. My issue now is just organizing too many events. I'm doing What Gives Your Life Meaning? (CSUSM initiative and campaign for palliative care) in a couple weeks. And I'm having to, I've learned to say no, kind of, to this sorority, that fraternity, that you know, I just can't do--So we've narrowed it down to four big events at Cal State San Marcos. And six libraries and two-- Downie: And you've got all those volunteers to organize with their dogs. B Biggs: Yeah. That's what's going on. Yeah. It's kinda-- Downie: Multiple sessions. Yeah. And it's admirable that everybody wants you, but there's also, you could have dogs on campus every day. I mean, if you really-- B Biggs: I would love to. Downie: --accommodated everybody who asked. B Biggs: Can't do it. Can’t do it. That was a hard one. And I'm having to step down from Cardiff Library because I have twenty minutes down there, and only had one kid to read to the dogs. So it's like they never got it off the ground, two years now. So, and that's hard. Gunnar knows, like, I don't know how to say no. (laughs) And learning to do that. But yeah, that's a, definitely a passion. And I love the university. I think that's the most important. Downie: Well, you do have your bench on the campus, it says-- B Biggs: That's right. (overlapping dialogue) He (Gunnar) calls me a bench! (laughs) Downie: --"I love this university,” I believe is what it says on it. B Biggs: Yes, it does. Yeah. Downie: Right next to the one with Dannis (Mitchell, deceased library employee). B Biggs: Yes, yes. (unintelligible) Yeah. Downie: So, I usually have a closing question. Because we've kind of been through my list here, but is there anything you can think about that, you know, or a culminating statement that you would want to say about the years you've had with Cal State? And you too Gunnar? I mean, you've, you've jumped in and reminded and brought up a few things, but-- B Biggs: I love that university, and I love what it gave me the opportunity to do in terms of the work with tribes, the work with Arts and Lectures. Owing books to, you know, I mean, I did work with patrons, but these other peripheral responsibilities are--run deep and are so meaningful to me. So I'm grateful for the opportunity. And even better to bring my dogs back. G Biggs: Yeah. B Biggs: That's just the best. (laughs) G Biggs: Well, for me, because I did take such a long time off from higher education, it is a home that I found. I got a bachelor's degree there that they let me design. It didn't exist before. I didn't know that was possible. The faculty there said, “You can do this.” I got a single subject California teaching credential there, and I actually taught there for three years as well. So, I consider it my academic home. I feel really at home out there. And I still know people that teach there, which is kind of cool. But it was very accepting to me, very flexible and of the highest quality. I mean, the, I almost said floundering. The founding faculty (laughs) came from such great places. They were really good teachers, researchers, and human beings. I was really just totally immersed in their lives and their subjects. So, it was really a nice place to finish up that part. For me. Downie: And I have to agree wholeheartedly with both of you. B Biggs: Aw. When you turn this (recording) off, I have one final story. Downie: Okay. (laughs) Alright, well I think we can end the interview at this point. So if you'll pass the phone over to me, I'll find the off button, wherever it is. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_2024-03-26.xml BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_2024-03-26.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Biggs, Bonnie, and Gunnar Biggs. Interview March 26, 2024. Description An account of the resource Bonnie Biggs was the inaugural Tribal Liaison and a Librarian Emeritus at California State University San Marcos. Gunnar Biggs has been a prominent figure in the musical environment in Southern California for over forty years, and is a retired music instructor from San Diego State University and Palomar College. In this interview, Bonnie and Gunnar recall the early history of CSUSM when it transitioned as the North County satellite campus for San Diego State University into CSUSM in 1989. Bonnie also discusses her academic and professional achievements, including her work as the university's Tribal Liaison. Bonnie and Gunnar additionally recall her sabbatical to Ghana, Ghanaian jazz music and musicians, visiting and working with tribal libraries in New Mexico, and Bonnie's most recent work with Love on a Leash. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-055 Subject The topic of the resource American Indian Library Association California Indians California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Tribal Liaison California State University San Marcos. University Library Libraries -- Ghana Jazz -- Ghana Jazz musicians -- Ghana Love on a Leash Patterson, Lotsee Rodriguez, Henry Nichols, 1919-2002 Tribal libraries -- New Mexico Tribal libraries -- Southern California Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-03-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bonnie Biggs Gunnar Biggs Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ghana New Mexico San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs Art and artists Community history CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/74d79b268796f9fd4fe70c39672ea551.pdf b89704ddedb683cf46b70c975e8540c2 PDF Text Text BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: All right, so we are now running. Okay. So, this is Judith Downie, curator of the Brewchive® (archive dedicated to preserving the history of the craft brewing industry in San Diego, CA) and History Librarian and Special Collections at Cal State San Marcos, with Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs to talk about Bonnie and Gunnar's history of Cal State San Marcos and other related pieces of their lives. So, I'm, this picks up pretty well. So we shouldn't have-Bonnie Biggs: Oh, it does. Okay. You want me to sit down? Downie: Well, or let's see. We can maybe put it between the two of you. Okay. You know, because whatever I say, I'll just say it loudly. B Biggs: Oh, okay. Downie: So, yeah, again, this will be Bonnie for the most part, but Gunnar will certainly be jumping in with memory jogs and his personal recollections as well. So, let's start off with Bonnie, your personal history. Where-B Biggs: Okay. Downie: Where did you grow up and some background on your education. B Biggs: Okay. I grew up not far from you (referring to Downie; laughs). I grew up in Vista, California and went to Vista High School. Then I went on to Palomar College, got an AA (Associate in Arts) degree, went to San Diego State, got a BA (Bachelor of Arts) in British Literature after the 1800s. And then onto USC (University of Southern California) for my Master's in Library Science. Downie: Okay. Gunnar, how about you? Gunnar Biggs: Oh. Downie: Where did you grow up, and your education? G Biggs: I grew up in San Diego, California, about a block from San Diego State (University; SDSU). My father was a faculty member in the music department there. And from there I went to North Texas State University in Denton, Texas for a couple of years. Then I took a twentyyear gap, going on the road playing music. And I came back and I got my bachelor's at Cal State San Marcos in Ethnic Studies and Global Arts, after completing my general ed(ucation) at Palomar College. And that's, yeah, that's about it in terms of my education. Downie: Okay. And so where did the two of you meet? B Biggs: Jazz Club. G Biggs: It was the Hyatt Islandia on Mission Bay. (laughs) Downie: Gunnar’s got the details. (Laughs) Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a friend take me to, to hear the French horn player. They usually don't play jazz, and this phenomenal famous piano player, but I liked the bass player. G Biggs: Which is very unusual (laughter) for the bass player to get the nod, you know? B Biggs: Yeah. So that's, and that was in 1981. Downie: Alright. So, let's move on to your professional history, Bonnie. I've sketched out a timeline from what I know, but of course I can be imperfect. So, we'll start with, I know you worked in public libraries-B Biggs: Yes. Downie: Before you moved into the academic library field. B Biggs: Yeah. I started my career at the Encinitas Library. Not the one we see now, the big beautiful one (snapping noise). But on that same site in 1973, and I worked there for nine years. And then I was moved to Solana Beach to become the branch manager for four years. And during that time, met him (Gunnar) and started going to grad school up at USC while I managed the Solana Beach Library. And when I got my master's I started looking around, and that's when I found SDSU North County. (I) was looking for a library (overlapping dialogue). Downie: So, what year would that have been? B Biggs: The SDSU North County? I would've started in 1986. Downie: Okay. B Biggs: And we were-Downie: That was long after they had established that satellite campus (SDSU North Couty satellite campus that officially became CSUSM in 1989). B Biggs: Right. I think it had been around, I think since the late seventies. I'm sure you've got history in the (overlapping dialogue) archives. Downie: Limited history, limited history. I think it's mostly at San Diego State. B Biggs: Yeah. So, it was San Diego State North County, and I was the librarian, and under the wonderful Dick Rush (CSUSM's first executive vice president). Whom we (Bonnie and Gunnar) just saw a couple weeks ago, had lunch with him. And what was interesting, he was less interested in my librarianship as my arts and lectures chops, because I had been doing music and a lot of outreach in the public library system. And he wanted to get San Diego State North County out to the community. We were in Jerome's (furniture store in San Marcos) parking lot, right. So we started having concerts, thanks to Gunnar. We got amazing musicians and put on festivals and, you know, Mexican fiestas and jazz con- you know, jazz. It was like a festival, actually-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 G Biggs: It was a jazz festival. B Biggs: So, so we started doing that. And then of course, I had to be a librarian too. That was always the thing. I had to do both. And that carried over when we (SDSU North County satellite campus) became Cal State San Marcos. Downie: So then you were at San Diego State North County while it was still in Vista (California). B Biggs: It wasn't in Vista at that time, but yeah, I know what you're talking about. It was, it had just started in San Marcos. But I know where that campus was. It was in the old Vista High, where I went to high school. So by ‘86 when I started, they had already moved into the Jerome's lot (building used for the campus that later became that furniture store). Downie: Oh, okay. That’s all very fuzzy in our records, so I've never been too sure. So that helps clarify that. B Biggs: Sandy Punch (retired CSUSM administrator) might be a good one to talk to. In fact, I have lunch with her this month. Yeah. Downie: Tell her I'm hunting for her. (laughs) B Biggs: I will, I'll do that. She'll love it. Downie: Okay. So, you were there for the transitionB Biggs: Oh, boy. Downie: To San Diego State North County. So, you never actually worked at San Diego State Libraries? B Biggs: No, San Diego State North County only. But I will tell you there, there were a couple of librarians at the main campus who were my mentors and who helped me make that transition, because it's a different world andDownie: From public to academic. B Biggs: Oh my goodness. Yeah. So, Philip White comes to mind. He was a very, very good friend. And he even came up a couple of times. Just having to do with working with faculty, developing the collection. The trick was the faculty was changing because they were starting to phase out North Count-- Well, they were solid for a while, but we were bringing in Cal State San Marcos faculty. So at one point I was reporting to two deans. When they hired Marion (Reid), she became my dean of the library. But I also was reporting kind of to Pat Huckle, who was the dean of San Diego State North County. Whom we just saw last week. We took her to lunch. So I stay in touch with the, these wonderful leaders that I got to, to work with. Downie: Okay, so you didn't have to move San Diego State North County or CSUSM to the Valecito site, Jerome's (Bonnie affirms) West, as we all call it. Because it had already moved. Transcribed by Aaron 3 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 But what sorts of, I mean, you were answering to two deans (Bonnie affirms) at the very least. But there must have been other challenges and opportunities in this whole transition from being a satellite of San Diego State University to its own freestanding Cal State San Marcos. So, what do you remember of that? B Biggs: I remember that it, I didn't know that much about academic politics at the time, but I remember there was a lot of it. And (I) started to figure out what the landscape was and just treaded very carefully, made friends with a lot of the faculty. David Whitehorse comes to mind, he’s one of my best friends there. He was San Diego State North County. And then beginning to get to know the founding faculty at Cal State (San Marcos). I remember there was a part of us at San Diego State North County who didn't want the change. We were thrilled that the state wanted to have this new university. We just had a nice little comfy warm tight-knit organization. And so, it was chaos for a while. And bringing Bill Stacy (founding president, CSUSM) on, luckily he and Dick Rush got along pretty well. As they also transitioned from one to the other. G Biggs: Didn't they fast track the change over? It was, it happened before people had-B Biggs: Very quick. G Biggs: --predicted. It was one day they were a satellite, and the next day they said, “We're about to move to the new campus as soon as it builds in.” You know, so. B Biggs: I'm trying to think who the governor was at the time that came down. G Biggs: Yeah. It was like, it was a governor's decision to go-B Biggs: And signed the paperwork. Downie: Was that (George) Deukmejian? (laughs) B Biggs: It wasn't, no. Wasn't (Bill) Craven. I mean, it was, was it a senator? Anyway, some, some, I have a photo in one of these somewhere of-Downie: Well, we have a signed certificate, I think from (Governor) Gray Davis. B Biggs: That might, that was probably it. Yeah. Yeah. He would've been the governor then. Yeah. So, that was when things got a little bit strange because we started to phase things out at North County and move. And that's when we took over the other building across the street. And the library moved into that space. Marion coming from, 'cause there, there's a question here (laughs). How, you know, she didn't know what to call me or what to offer me as a position because, to have called me Assistant Dean, that implies tenure and, you know, academic credit that far exceeded what I had at the time. I was just, you know, a public librarian learning to be. So she, but generously, I think it was generous, she gave me the title of Assistant to the Dean. And of course I was that, I assisted her on many things, head of, then it became Head of Public Services, or (unintelligible), it was called Coordinator for Public Services. They call it patron, is it now, it's not public services-Downie: User services, (overlapping) what we call it. Transcribed by Aaron 4 Williams 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: User services, I like that. Yeah. And then later Arts and Lectures (curriculum-linked events produced by CSUSM College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral and Social Sciences). So there, there I had one business card with three titles on it, which I think a lot of people did at that new university. Downie: Yeah. We all had to do a variety of jobs. And we were not in the, centralized or no, I forget what the term is, but where you just kind of did things. It got done, it got taken care of, and it's gotten so much structure-B Biggs: Crossing lines-Downie: Permissions and paying for everything. Where it used to just be, it got done and somebody covered the cost. (Bonnie affirms). But it does seem like there would've been a lot of long hours and obviously confusion as to lines of responsibility, but it got worked out. B Biggs: It really did. Downie: Seems like. B Biggs: And luckily, on one end, we had Dick Rush who, I got to tell him at lunch a couple weeks ago, what a wonderful leader he was. He constantly took time out, when we didn't even have time to go to the bathroom or breathe and gather us around his desk or somewhere in the library, and just let us know how wonderful we were and how much our work was appreciated. And what that does, you know, it gives you a shot in the arm and you just keep going. And Pat Huckle was the one, again my other dean saying, “Bonnie, at the end of the day, it's just gonna be a dead librarian if we keep this up.” (Gunnar laughs) Meaning she got--I told her about that the other day. (Laughs) It, she gave me the permission to place some limits in my ability to do all the stuff we were required to do. We were thought to be doing. And I don't know that that slowed me down a whole lot, but-Downie: Probably not. B Biggs: Yeah. G Biggs: Well, Dick, Dick told you the library is the heart of a university. (Bonnnie affirms). So that's where he came from. Initially it was like, build this library and you will have a successful university. So that kind of put the weight on your shoulders. (Bonnie affirms). “Okay, I gotta build the heart.” B Biggs: And the fact that he wanted the arts made such a difference in that tiny little Jerome's library, bringing the principal brass of the San Diego Symphony because of his (Gunnar) connections, for a concert. And Peter Sprague (jazz guitarist) out in the parking lot. It just, it put us on the map, in a tiny way. Because people saw, that there, there actually was a campus there kind of (laughs). Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Yeah. So even years later, I was at a conference and somebody said, “Oh, San Diego State North County.” I'm like, “No, we haven't been that for a number of years, thank you very much.” B Biggs: Yes, yes, yes. (laughs). Downie: But you know, if you're not right there in the thick of it, you didn’t realize-B BIggs: It was 1989 when I think, I mean, that's a date that really sticks out, I had been there three years. And 1989 was when we were signed-Downie: When Bill Stacy came in and-B Biggs: Right. Downie: Brought in the founding faculty and-B Biggs: Right. And that's-- (overlapping dialogue) Downie: --things started really changing. B Biggs: Have you gotten all the founding faculty? I'm assuming you've-Downie: Marion got oral histories from-B Biggs: Oh, good. Downie: --I think everybody, and it would be nice to go back to some of them and, get a looking back now, what you saw then versus what you're, what you’ve-B Biggs: In retrospect. (overlapping dialogue) What, yeah. Downie: In retrospect view of that, that could be extremely interesting. But so, you were there to move into the permanent campus on Twin Oaks Valley Road. And that was while I was not on campus. That was during my period of exile, as I call it, after I got my master's. And I went down to United States International University. So that's, there's a chunk of campus history that I didn't personally experience-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: How long were you-Downie: I was there eighteen months. B Biggs: At, at USIU. Downie: Yeah. B Biggs: Okay, yeah. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: And so, and of course-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: I forgot that. Downie: --being that the position I was in as a staff person when I left, I was not involved in planning or any of that sort of thing. (Bonnie affirms), I'm sure you were, I know Marion certainly was. Way-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: Oh yeah. Way deep. (overlapping dialogue) Downie: Way, deep, deep, deep into it. But you certainly had a lot of input as well. So, what do you remember about running up to moving onto the permanent campus at Twin Oaks Valley (Road) and then the move? Other than we had to borrow book carts from everybody, every library in the county. B Biggs: Yes. I remember that. Of course, Marion was much more in charge of that and involved. I think I was doing more hands-on and working with a few staff. We had to fill those book carts and get things moved into the library. I will say a major memory of that was that we were not invited to the groundbreaking. I just have to go on record to say that. And there were many people who had been doing that kind of work, high level work. You know, like Marion, she was there. But those of us who helped build the foundation of that university--San Diego State North County--were not invited to the groundbreaking. So that, that's something that's one of the few bitter kind of, “Really?” (Downie affirms) Kind of thing. Maybe Dick was, yeah, I'm sure he went because he had transitioned-G Biggs: There's a picture, there's of all the shovel people-B Biggs: All the shovels. No (San Diego State) North County people. So that was interesting. (Downie affirms) And it is kind of a blur. I mean, all of the nuts and bolts and physical work. I just remember it being a lot of physical hard work, getting--Marion probably was up here (referring to planning and coordination of the campus move) more than, you know, the moving of the materials. And-G Biggs: They got somebody local that had a moving company to help move the collection, box them up-B Biggs: And I, I think Jim Hanson may have helped. G Biggs: Jim Hanson was on there, but I forget who it was that had trucks. He had a moving company, right? B Biggs: I don't remember that. Downie: Well, they were, they were flatbed trucks with board sides, and we had all those book trucks. And the day we moved the collection, it was raining. So we had to wrap all the book trucks in plastic-B Biggs: I remember that now. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: To move them into Craven Hall, which is now the Administration Building. B Biggs: Right. Downie: And then of course, the ceiling was leaking, even though the books were on the fourth floor, we didn't have our shelving yet. So, the books were sitting on the floor. (laughs) B Biggs: You have more memories of that-G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: --than I do. That's interesting. I, yeah. Downie: Well, again, you had other responsibilities that you were running the arts programs and, (Bonnie affirms) you know, everything. And (overlapping dialogue) areas of responsibility. B Biggs: And all the Indian stuff had started by then too because, you know Whitehorse, the way it started was David Whitehorse (School of Education Emeritus faculty) walked into my office. He was standing as State North County faculty and said, “The plan of cooperation between the county library system and the tribes is dissolving, they’re--what can you do about it?” Like, “How do I (Biggs) know what to do about it?” (Downie laughs). So, I had started going out and working with the tribes at that point. We had American Indian Storytellings-G Biggs: Storytelling. B Biggs: --we had the American Indian culture--we couldn't call it a powow--culture fair, inside and over at the Red Barn (Williams Barn, San Marcos, California). So I was kind of doing a lot of that stuff at the same time. That's why I don't have really clear memories of the actual movement of the books. But-G Biggs: That’s where you met Uncle Henry (Rodriguez; Native American water rights activist; instrumental in preserving indigenous California culture) was at the, at the storytellings. B Biggs: Yeah. He was, yes. G Biggs: I see that down there, yeah. Downie: So that really kind of segues beautifully into the next session, which is your work with the local tribes, the California tribal libraries. So, how did you actually become interested in this particular part of our population? B Biggs: Yeah. Well, David Whitehorse told me I had to (combined laughter). I mean, when he said, when I looked at the plan of cooperation it was a plan, very loose plan that the San Diego County Library system, which is thirty-three branches from Otay Mesa to Fallbrook. And the system I came from, they had a plan of cooperation. It just meant that they would do some interlibrary loan and maybe occasionally go out and help, you know, people with collection development. But it all of a sudden was dissolving. And so, I'm trying to think of the timing. It Transcribed by Aaron 8 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 was at a time, one of those times when the budget was going to hell in California. So, they were pulling funding back and staffing ability to go out and even do the little bit that they were doing. So, David wanted to know what I was gonna do about it. So, I did start going out to some of the local libraries: Pala, Rincon, Pauma, La Jolla, San Pasquale, just the local, the most local (to North County San Diego), not south. There were no casinos for many years until after I started working with them (California tribal libraries). So, it was more just about getting an assessment of who had what. Some of them had combination museums and libraries, which is not uncommon on most tribal land. So, I just started developing. I would say, and I tell people this, it took seven years to get totally trusted and implanted into the culture. You don't just go out and say, “Hi, I'm a white librarian, I'm gonna help you out.” (Laughs) It really did take years and years and years. But doing things like “Prez to the Rez,” taking the (university) presidents out there developing tribal communities, task forces, I'm getting ahead of myself, but that, it was that kind of stuff that gained the trust of the tribal communities. And the big part of that, ultimately, first it was, do something because the library system is abandoning them. But the more important thing was we need to get these Indian students to the university to trust coming to a university. Lots of history on that, you know, with what we did to native people in boarding schools. So, it really did take a long time to gain the trust, and the numbers show now that our native population at the university is one of the highest, last I looked, in all the CSUs (California State Universities). So, and we were the first to have a tribal liaison. And it was Tish (Tishmall Turner). No, it wasn’t (laughs). You saw that. That was a-Downie: Well, this is a problem with a lot of the firsts that we've done on the campus is nobody stopped to think, this is the first we need, we need to record this somewhere. And responsibilities have moved from department to department. From unit to unit. Across. And then we've had changes in presidents, changes in everything. B Biggs: Deans and-Downie: So after a while, yes, it gets lost. B Biggs: That's why archives are so, I mean seriously, it's so important, especially with a university this young. You got, I'm glad Jen (Fabbi) is moving there (to CSUSM’s Special Collections). I mean, you need all the help you can get, and you've got an opportunity before it gets too far down the road to capture all this amazing history. Downie: Cause we've already lost some very key players. That, you know, you can't go and interview them now. Unfortunately. B Biggs: No. No, I know. Downie: So, yeah. So it's become, becoming more critical all the time. B Biggs: Yeah. Did somebody, I'm sure they did. They must have interviewed Dick Rush at some point. So-Downie: Nobody's interviewed Dick Rush yet. Transcribed by Aaron 9 Williams 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: Wow. Downie: Yeah. No, we, we have his papers. I mean, he doc-B Biggs: He did. That's right. Downie: We have more paper from Dick Rush in boxes in Special Collections than from anybody else. G Biggs: Do you (Bonnie) still have your yellow legal pad thing where Dick had (overlapping dialogue) bullets for what, what he wanted you to do? Handwritten. B Biggs: We’ll have to find that. But, you know, we're gonna go up mid-April, just for a twonight trip for our anniversary, our fortieth anniversary. And we're gonna see Dick probably, we'll probably stop in Camarillo (city in California). And should I ask him if he is interested in being interviewed? Downie: Yeah, please. B Biggs: Okay. That would, wow. I mean, because beyond those boxes, this is somebody-Downie: Oh, there's so much more. B Biggs: Somebody who really, really knows the story. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, because he was there from ground zero, basically. B Biggs: He was a British literature professor at (Downie laughs) San Diego State. Downie: Those Brit Lit people, I tell you. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Downie: So I know that you have mentioned to me over time that you went, you know, when you were first working with the tribal libraries, that you would go to tribal councils and you would just sit there and just listen. (Bonnie affirms) And, you know, speak when you were spoken to or invited to speak, things like that. But where did you meet Uncle Henry (Rodriguez)? B Biggs: I think at a powwow (a social gathering celebrating Indigenous American culture). G Biggs: Or a, well, there's a picture of him at the Red Barn with Lee Dixon (Pauma Band of Mission Indians). AndB Biggs: So it would've been the American Indian-G Biggs: Find that picture-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: --culture fair, we couldn't have powwows yet. And David (Whitehorse) helped organize those. So that was when we were still San Diego State North County. And he (Rodriguez) was always invited as an elder to give the blessing. And he did that for us until the day he died. But commencements and powwows, so met him there. I'm trying to think how I got close to him. Just got close to him. Downie: He was a very astute man. (Bonnie affirms) He probably saw your empathy and connection. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And he knew I was working with the tribal libraries. I'd come, I'd go to the La Jolla Reservation, which is way up Palomar Mountain. They had like a room with- so many of these libraries all around the country, really. Or a couple of shelves of books. One of them at Manzanita (Reservation of the Manzanita Band of the Kumeyaay Nation), I think was a bookshelf in a fire department. That was their library, you know, and people took me in and said, “Here's our library.” And yeah. So, Henry (Rodriguez) knew I was doing that work, and yeah. He knew I--to say in Luiseño, I had a good heart, I guess is. Downie: Okay. And you've already talked about bringing the powwow to campus, but it was the American Cultural Fair. Before the American Indian Cultural Fair. Before it was actually a powwow. What were the mechanisms by where it could become a powwow? B Biggs: Yeah. It had to be, of course outside, and with a number of different things, different dancers, different singers. Bird songs are important for local culture. So it, you saw a couple of them, I'm sure. It's huge. It's not something that you hold inside. So the parameters are really about dancers and music and a processional. So Henry (Rodriguez) would often, with me and Whitehorse, lead the procession. There's a blessing of the field. So, probably an Indian person could tell you more what the specifics were you, you would have a--what was Randy Edmonds (American Indian Tribal Leader)? Barry, what was Randy Edmonds? G Biggs: Randy Edmonds was the MC. B Biggs: He was the master of ceremony. So, soDownie: Randy’s last name? B Biggs: Randy Edmonds. Downie: Edmonds. B Biggs: And he's still alive. I just heard something about him the other day. So, there were just a whole bunch of things. The idea of the American Indian Culture Fair was to at least get people used to it. So there would be a prayer and a blessing at a table. Got pictures of that stuff going with Henry. But, and I think they could do like a few small bird songs and maybe a little, you know, dances. But, they would have booths. And it was just a mini powwow is the best way to describe it. Powwow didn't happen till we moved to the campus. And we had that lower field, which I think is soccer now. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 11 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: It's used a lot for soccer, but I think it could be used for other sports as well. Yeah, it's right down there at the, on the corner of the entrance on Twin Oak Valley Road. B Biggs: Right. We always drive by when I'm on campus, “There's the powwow field.” That was huge. And I don't know if you know there's an Indian store over here (referencing a picture). They just closed or they're moving this. Downie: Oh, they closed. B Biggs: Yeah, but we were in there and recently just to help with any, you know, buying things. And the guy said, I said, “Do you remember me? I,” and he goes, “Oh yeah. Was (referring to the CSUSM American Indian Cultural Fair) the best organized powwow ever.” Because they went to all the tribes. Downie: Oh, I'm sure they did. B Biggs: I said, “It's because a librarian organized it.” (laughter; overlapping dialogue) Librarians-Downie( Exactly. You put a librarian on it, it's gonna be organized. B Biggs: I know. He was. Yeah. So, they were always there and selling things. What were you trying toG Biggs: I was trying to find that picture of the lineup. B Biggs: The perfect processional, yeah. G Biggs: Lee Dixon, who's passed away. Jane Dumas. David Whitehorse, Uncle Henry. You (Bonnie Biggs) and somebody else, they're all lined up. But that was in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Downie: We have a few pictures of the Cultural Fair, what was going on in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: And-G Biggs: Yeah, Randy Edmonds charged me with carrying Carol Bonomo (CSUSM Administrator Emeritus) out of the arena. They had just smudged blessed the arena, and you weren't, you weren't to enter the arena after that. And Carol comes across there and Randy goes, “Go get her and get her out of there.” So, I had to pick up Carol and-B Biggs: Small, she's small. (overlapping dialogue; laughter) G Biggs: I know. And carry her out the arena, kicking and screaming. She tells that story all the time. Transcribed by Aaron 12 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: All the time. Yeah. She loves that story. G Biggs: And I said, “It's not me! I was told to do this, so I do this.” B Biggs: (laughs) It was, yeah. G Biggs: But there's certain protocols for the, like that. You don't enter the arena after it's been blessed and stuff like that. B Biggs: And I don't, I can't even remember how many years it went on, but after many years I think I was starting to think about retirement, but the students took over. Downie: Yeah, the American Indian Student Alliance. B Biggs: And it didn’t-Downie: They did it, I think, for two years. And then being that the student population changes, you don't have the continuity that you have-B Biggs: Exactly. Downie: --of actual employed staff and faculty to lead something. I mean, I've seen that happen so many times with the student organizations. They'll be there for a year or so, and then the person who was excited and found it, graduates. Good for them. Yes. But then they haven't developed a line of succession either. (Bonnie affirms) And then something else will pop up. But-B Biggs: Yeah, that was unfortunate. And people were sad about it. And I think right after that, either I was going up for tenure--that's what it was, Whitehorse and I finally said, “You know, we better do this tenure thing.” And so suddenly I started publishing, you know, in a flying hurry. I'd done some, and then that's what it was. Yeah, we both had to step down. Downie: Tenure becomes quite the time suck. B Biggs: I'll never forget Dick (Rush) telling me, because I was just being a librarian, I didn't understand the whole, again because I wasn't really part of yet of the faculty. Downie: Well, we didn't have a faculty mentorship program that we do now. There was really, you were just doing what had to be done. And hopefully somebody told you. B Biggs: All of sudden, oh, you're supposed to write about this. Okay. And that was another thing, is doing all of the publications I did, all had to do with tribal libraries. You have to be careful, you know, and respectful, and vet things. And so that was, that sort of added to the lengths of time to get things done. Downie: And so, as part of your scholarly work of course, was the California Tribal Library Survey, which that was, was on a sabbatical, right? Transcribed by Aaron 13 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: You know, the, the strange thing was the first sabbatical was Africa, right after I got tenure. And then the State Library of California paid my--paid the university, gave Marion money to cover me while I did that survey. The second actual one was going around and doing the New Mexico Pueblos. So that was my sabbatical. The second one. Yeah, the first one was right, you know right after you get tenure, you get a sabbatical. That was Africa. And-Downie: Well, now you can apply for a sabbatical and hope you get one. (laughs) B Biggs: Hope you get one. Exactly. And the, and the second one, and I'm trying to remember how long afterwards that was. G Biggs: What, Africa? Downie: It's usually (overlapping dialogue) every six years-B Biggs: Yeah, something like that. Yeah. And then, but the, the census and needs assessment for the State Library of California was just a thing that they asked me to do because I'd become involved in, so that took us all the way up to a sheet. Yeah. So-Downie: And that was 2001, 2002, as it says on the spine, a very fat binder. (laughter) B Biggs: Yes. Of a very fat binder. And he (Gunnar) was on that one. I have no sense of direction. So, Gunnar drove me. Not only there, because a lot of the you know, reservations are really way out there and not very well signed. You see the signages, “Go three rocks up past the, you know, the oak tree and turn left.” Same thing with going around to the Pueblos in New Mexico. And I went on that trip because Lotsee Patterson (librarian and founder of the American Indian Library Association), my mentor, said that the best tribal library system in the country was within the pueblos of New Mexico (referring to the physical establishments of the Pueblo peoples). And that's because she helped guide them along for decades. And it was an amazing trip. Downie: And how did you meet Lotsee? B Biggs: At an AL- AILA, American Indian Library Association meeting. And we rode in a taxi somewhere, and I remember-G Biggs: Chicago. B Biggs: --remember thinking, “Oh my God, I'm in a taxi with Lotsee Paterson.” (laughter) And she was the most likable, lovable, again, we talked to her just a few weeks ago. She got her materials to Sean (Visintainer; Head of CSUSM Special Collections) for, yeah. But she's the one, I mean, everything really centers around her. And we just became friends and I guess kind of a, she was kind of a mentor and a not in a real strict way but she, just by way of being around her she was mentoring me. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 14 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Well, I think that's a very much cultural way is just simply organically as it happens, you pass your knowledge onto someone else rather than the formal academic environment that you know, we commonly think of. G Biggs: She would take the students on a summer trip to the pueblos. And we would, we tagged along on one of those. So, in desert summer in New Mexico with our dog in the car and everything, but we would go to library to library, and she (Patterson) would know everybody. Down to the tribal policeman that tried to throw us out once, you know. “How's your cousin doing?” And he'd look at her and he'd go, “Oh my goodness, go ahead.” You know. (laughter) But without those kind of inroads, you don't just walk into a-B Biggs: And she helped me get entre into all of the, all of the Pueblos who are just phenomenal people. Yeah. Downie: Lots of, lots of accomplishments there. So that will bring us onto your other career accomplishments. On campus, I know that you were the first librarian faculty to serve as the Academic Senate chair, which was a pretty big deal because there weren't too many of us librarians (Bonnie affirms). G Biggs: --weren’t Chair though. Downie: Number one (laughs). B Biggs: Right. There weren't, and, but the deal was, this is very strange, and I have to find it. I'd been senate vice chair for maybe four years, and I think by the time Bud Morris (Dr. G.H. “Bud” Morris; professor of communications and former Academic Senate chair) was ready to step down, I said, “Okay, I will go ahead and do this.” But I stepped out. I didn't, I ended up not serving as chair. And it was because I was getting ready to retire. I think that would've been 2004. And Karen (Haynes; President of CSUSM 2004 to 2019) had just said to me, “Will you be tribal liaison?” So, I ended up not serving. I think I was the only person who was voted, and also the only person who ever said, “I'm not gonna do it.” And that was, that was a big stink. And even Alex Gonzalez (former CSUSM President 1997-2003) was pissed at me (Gunnar laughs). I hated--didn't care for him. (laughs) But no so I didn't, but I served certainly for, I don't know, fifteen years on the executive committee and then four years as vice chair. Ick. Ick. Downie: That was certainly long enough. But, that's what people had to do. I mean, there weren't that many people to serve in positions. Patty Seleski (CSUSM Professor Emerita) was, what, History Department chair for twelve years? (Bonnie affirms) Because she just said, “I'll take it on, because the junior faculty need to be able to work and get their tenure.” (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: And do their research, and yeah. Exactly. Downie: So, we made sacrifices in some ways. B Biggs: We just talked to Pat (Seleski) last week when we went down. She's almost blind now, but she said that she was senate chair for three years straight. I don't think we've had anyone do that many years straight. Have we? Transcribed by Aaron 15 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Somebody recently did do I think two terms. B Biggs: Okay. Downie: But that was when it was one-year terms. Now it's become a two-year term. B Biggs: Has it? Okay. Downie: Glen Brodowsky (CSUSM Marketing Professor) is chair right now. B Biggs: Glen is, and he was always on (academic) senate with me. (overlapping dialogue) I love Glen. Downie: So, but any other firsts that you did? I mean, you certainly started the Arts and Lectures program. You certainly brought, you know, the tribal collaboration and partnerships to campus. But what, what other sorts of things? B Biggs: Firsts? G Biggs: Tribal liaison. Tribal Liaison. B Biggs: Oh, the tribal liaison I think is really important because, there were none anywhere. And so, establishing those relationships in the tribal communities task force, sort of paved the road. You read that history that I corrected that went to Patricia, Patricia (Prado)-Olmos. So, I think that that's probably, if I were to say the one thing I was most proud of, is that we established a position on campus that was about serving native communities. And then now that, I understand that they've got a couple in other CSUs, they have something. Maybe not the exact title at SDSU. And then the UCs (Universities of California) got a couple now. But we didn't have, there wasn't anyone. And yeah, I didn't like the fact that it was forgotten that there was someone who was before Tishmall. But getting Tishmall there as a local Luiseño tribal member was so important. Getting Joely Proudfit (Department Chair and Professor, American Indian Studies Department) to come to campus was, that was amazing. You know we lured her away from CSU San Bernadino, and to get a couple of local tribal people, really what that does is it opens the door for native students. I mean, we started that by having our tribal community task force. We go out to the rez, “Prez to the Rez”. We do things out there to bring people in. Untrusting native students and families started to see that we were a safe place for them to come. But the tribal liaison position, probably I would say, I would think the most important thing that I accomplished. Downie: Would you say, if I remember correctly, San Diego County has more tribes than any other county in California? B Biggs: Federally recognized. Yeah. Downie: Federally recognized. Okay. Would you say that was maybe one of the reasons that we could be the first in that? Because-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 16 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: I would think so. Downie: --there was just a larger population to work with. B Biggs: We had a larger population, and we had, we were young enough. Karen Haynes was one hundred percent behind it. I was on her search committee, and I got to ask one question, each of the faculty members (got to ask one question). And mine was, “We have nineteen federally recognized tribes in the county of San Diego. What do you think you would like to do, if you became president, about that?” And she said, “First of all, I would talk to people who know about it, and know what the needs are, and want to meet with the native people.” And I was like, “You're hired.” Downie: Ding, ding, ding, ding. (laughter) B Biggs: You're hired. So it was really having a leader on campus who was one hundred percent behind doing this work. And she came to a number of our, before we had NAC (Native Advisory Council), came to a lot of our tribal communities task force meetings, just to hear--that was getting people from business, you know, you think it's- Who, Raj (Dr. Rajnandini, CSUSM Professor of Management)? Is Raj still there? Downie: I believe so, yeah. B Biggs: And Glen Brodowsky. Folks that you wouldn't think would have anything to do with this stuff all had input and all had ways to take their resources and their knowledge base out to the reservation. Or their advice to the reservation to help-Downie: And NAC is Native Advisory Council? B Biggs: Yeah. And that, that evolved. You know, so Wendy Schlater (member of the La Jolla Band of Luiseño, elected vice chairwoman of that tribe in 2019) from La Jolla rez, Henry’s rez, and I went to President Hayes and said, “We need-“ you know, there was at the time what they call Latin- Latino Faculty and Staff-G Biggs: LAFSB Biggs: LAFS. G Biggs: Latin American Faculty and Staff. B Biggs: And then they had just started an African American council. So, I thought, you know, we should--especially because we have so many tribes in the area, and it was time. And they're still meeting. I'm not going anymore. But, but it's wonderful that, that they are meeting and that, and I believe President Neufeldt (CSUSM President Ellen J. Neufeldt, appointed in 2019) is behind everything I've worked with her on having to do with the tribes. She's very-Downie: It dovetails nicely with her social mobility focus. B Biggs: Right. It does. Yeah. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 17 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Okay. So-B Biggs: Oh, another first on campus was bringing therapy dogs. Downie: Okay, well-G Biggs: It's down here. B Biggs: Oh, is it on here? (laughs) G Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) I see it right at the bottom there. B Biggs: Oh, is it really? G Biggs: Right at the bottom. Downie: But no, that's I think perfectly. That's, that's a wonderful first. Yeah. I think that's been done, you know, like in the county libraries of the public libraries, there's been the reading to dogs. So, it's not like it was completely foreign to people that dogs could be used in a very positive way. Other than just simply assistance animals. And there's nothing simple about that. But you know, the therapy dogs and the comfort or support dogs and things like that. I haven't seen a support alligator on campus yet, thankfully. Or a support snake. Any, any kind of reptile. Haven't seen those yet. But it does seem like it's being a more acceptable thing, but just the bringing them on right at finals time. (Bonnie affirms) To give students another form of release is, it's obviously quite popular. I walk out to see you and, you know, there are just students everywhere, you know, coming by, you know? Kids that didn't know about it are coming by and just, “Oh, well I gotta stop and touch a puppy.” B Biggs: And faculty and staff. And administrators-G Biggs: Presidents. Downie: Yes. We all need it. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Librarians. Yeah. Downie: Okay. So we can move on to some of your other career accomplishments beyond the firsts. You did do a sabbatical in Ghana, and wasn't that one of the first internationally, international-B Biggs: Might have been. I don't know who else had gone-Downie: --sabbaticals. I don't have a list of who's done a sabbatical when and where they went, but it doesn't seem like we had too many faculty-B Biggs: Not that many of them-Downie: --that were internationally focused the way you were on this. Transcribed by Aaron 18 Williams 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: And there was somehow money. It was obviously Komla Amoaku (Dr. W. Komla Amoaku, former Director of Visual and Performing Arts at CSUSM) who got me interested because they do have what I would call tribal libraries, or libraries formed by indigenous people in Ghana. And so, he got money through the-G Biggs: United States (overlapping dialogue) Information, USIA. B Biggs: So, so a little bit of money to help fund that. We of course got some money from the university I guess, to go, but we ended up paying your (Gunnar’s) way. G Biggs: Yeah. Thanks. B Biggs: For everything. And we stayed at a woman's home, auntie-G Biggs: Jane Korontang. B Biggs: Korontang-G Biggs: On Labadi Beach on the Gulf of Guinea. B Biggs: So Komla-Downie: I may have to ask for spelling. (laughter) B Biggs: Komla got us connected everywhere. And we had a--but it, but again, it was to go around and talk with people in libraries that again, were kind of like the tribal libraries here. Some pretty well formed, some others, very slim, I would say. But the thing about Ghana was Komla was very involved in the music world there. He was the director-G Biggs: Director. B Biggs: Of the national Symphony-G Biggs: Theater. B Biggs: Symphony or Orchestra? G Biggs: National Theater of Ghana. B Biggs: National Theater of Ghana-G Biggs: Which was an umbrella organization for all the arts-B Biggs: For all the arts-G Biggs: Music, theater, et. cetera-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 19 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: So he ended up getting this one. It was like my sabbatical. And he (Gunnar) was the star. (laughs) G Biggs: No. No. B Biggs: He had, he had you conduct the-G Biggs: Well, I, we went to hear a concert of the National Symphony of Ghana which was, it's a long story, so I won't go into it now, but it was really a treat. And the next day, Komla said, “Would you go to their rehearsal and talk to them about their performance?” So I did. And it was amazing, you know, and they had me conduct a piece during the rehearsal. But they were using some like, traditional African instruments in a symphony orchestra. That was just ridiculous. I mean, it was so good. And they--I found out that they didn't have strings for the--they didn't have a, they would break a string and they would find some way to make a string. Downie: Oh, wow. G Biggs: So when I got back, what I did is I asked all my symphony friends, I said, “If you have old sets of strings, tuners, anything that would be violin, viola, cello, or bass, give them to me. I'll get them to Ghana.” So, I sent a whole care package. They couldn't tune up. They didn't have a piano that was in tune, so I sent them tuners and things like that. But-B Biggs: And the other, there are a lot of stories, but the other thing about him is we went to a couple of jazz clubs. G Biggs: Which we didn't know existed in the first place-B Biggs: In the first place. G Biggs: --there were jazz clubs in Accra (capital of Ghana), the main-B Biggs: But we walked in and Komla introduced him (Gunnar) as this big jazz star. And he ended up showing the African musicians how to play jazz, which is some funny stuff. I mean, jazz originated in Africa. And the rhythmic foundations of jazz-G Biggs: Well, the head of USIS, United States Information Service, Nick Robertson, who lived in Ojai (California). Anyway, he was a jazz vibraphone player. He played vibes. And he had gotten together, we got some music sent over. Some musicians in Accra, to form a band, at the place called The Bassline. B Biggs: As in bass line. G Biggs: It was amazing, you know? And so I sat in and then, then he said, “We're gonna close the club tomorrow, and you're gonna do a clinic.” I said, “Okay!” (laughter) And then here, and I felt so outta place, because here I am trying to show them the idiom of American jazz, which wouldn't exist were it not for West African influences, ‘cause they had a little couple of pieces of the puzzle rearranged, kind of, and it turned-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 20 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: By the end of the night, they were-G Biggs: By the end of the night, they-B Biggs: They totally had it. G Biggs: They got it immediately. And so I got to-Downie: Well, they had the foundation. G Biggs: Yeah. So I got to sit in every-Downie: It morphed into something different-Downie: So I got to sit in a bunch and play. B Biggs: And then Komla took them out in the country and played with a whole bunch of African drummers, and Gunnar sitting there trying to do the, like the apentemma drum. And this little seven year-Downie: Well, I remember Gunnar playing in Komla’s-B Biggs: Yes, yes-Downie: Classes and things. You know, the performances that-B Biggs: That's right. Downie: What was the name of the-B Biggs: Sankofa? (Dr. Amoaku’s Artists in Residence group, which CSUSM granted a stipend to support the university mission of diversity through arts.) G Biggs: Sankofa. Downie: Sankofa. That you would do-G Biggs: Well, I knew enough to be dangerous (laughter). But when he took us to his home in Ho (Ghana), which was way up in the northern Volta region, they had these people waiting for us when we drove in, it was like midnight. And all the kids were gonna dance and drum for us. And they asked me to sit in again. So I'm playing this one part, and it's like, I remember this eight-year-old little boy going, “Yes, no, no, no, no. Yes. That's it. No, no, no.” (laughter). So I'm being totally humbled to the roots. B Biggs: By an 8-year-old. (laughter) G Biggs: But I remember everything he told me. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 21 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: Everything, yeah G Biggs: I mean, so-B Biggs: So, anyway, it was my sabbatical. But he was the superstar. G Biggs: No, I didn't get on national radio. B Biggs: I got on national radio but what, but they would not let him come in. They actually had people with guns-G Biggs: Fifty caliber gunmen placements. B Biggs: Over I guess, you know in, for national radio in a country that, I mean, there really weren't bad things going on-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Well, if there, if there's a coup, the first thing-B Biggs: They go-G Biggs: --people do is they take over the national communicate television and radio. Downie: Oh, true. Yeah. G Biggs: So they had these guys with helmets and fifty caliber machine guns. And you were, if you weren't on the list, they'd point the gun at you to keep walking. B Biggs: Gunnar was like, “I think I'll wait in the car for you.” G Biggs: I moved back to the, yeah-B Biggs: It was just a quick interview. But about-G Biggs: It was a good interview! B Biggs: --tribal. And it was a, it was nice in the interview to be able to talk about some of the similarities between the indigenous library, libraries in Ghana and the tribal libraries here in the country. So it was-G Biggs: You did that at the University of Ghana too, remember? You went in there and you talked with them? B Biggs: I think so. G Biggs: Yeah. I was in the car waiting again. (laughter) B Biggs: You were probably, yeah. Yeah. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 22 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 G Biggs: But you talked to people at the university. B Biggs: And I may have at the university of--where did we go? British Columbia (Canada), I think I talked about, had an opportunity to, one of the many you know talks was to talk about that there are indigenous libraries in Africa as well. So, it was fun. What else? But yeah, his story, I mean, he was “Mr. Superstar” there. Yeah, you were. Yep. Downie: Okay. So well, we'll move on out of Africa and come back to the states here. (laughter) Talk about anything, anything you did at the CSU level rather than campus level. Anything that you did? B Biggs: Lots of talks. I'm trying to think. I actually got involved in development at one point. Fundraising. Downie: I kind of remember that. You were doing some fundraising. B Biggs: And there was a group that was formed out of San Luis Obispo, on librarians who were involved in development. I'm trying to make, remember the name of that group? Do you remember that? G Biggs: No. What about the California State Library? Recognizing. B Biggs: Oh, yeah. I mean, but that's not the CSU. G Biggs: No, but under this career accomplishment thing. B Biggs: Yeah, well that was a big one. Was the, you know, the assessment thing. That came out of having a relationship with a woman I met through AILA (American Indian Library Association), American Indian. She went on to become the state tribal library coordinator. Susan Hanks, I don't know if you remember Susan's name. Downie: That name sounds vaguely familiar-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Which didn't exist before you. B Biggs: Yeah, she, well, yeah. G Biggs: Sorry. B Biggs: National. ALA (American Library Association). I actually went from being involved with ALA with more, much more with AILA (American Indian Library Association). I would go to ALA meetings. But it was all about, you know, going to the AILA meetings. Downie: But you were the first non-Indian president-B Biggs: President, of AILA. Yeah. And that's Lotsee’s (referring to Patterson) fault. She pushed me down that road. (laughter) Transcribed by Aaron Williams 23 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 G Biggs: And you got an award for a Librarian of the Year for-B Biggs: Yeah, it was-G Biggs: What was that award? B Biggs: I don't know. The plaque is in there. Downie: I remember typing up some of the newsletters for AILA. Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: I was your support person with Arts and Lectures. B Biggs: That's right. Right. It, I think they still have the group, and I wanna think it's Librarians of Color, which I'm not that colorful. I am part Cherokee, but I don't, I don't talk about that to, what's it called? Joint Conference Librarians of Color Distinguished Service Award. Yeah. Oh, that was a, what was the one we did the talk at? In the--people from--that were the Whakatau (pronounced with a “ph” sound). G Biggs: Whakahau. B Biggs: That was their actual name. G Biggs: They were Māori. B Biggs: Māori. G Biggs: Māori. B Biggs: And, and it wasG Biggs: New Zealand. B Biggs: Yeah. Indigenous First Peoples from all over the world. And that was, that was through AILA, my part was through AILA, but it was with International Indigenous Librarians (Forum, advocacy group for indigenous peoples in library systems). Yeah. Downie: Your influence-B Biggs: This is bringing back weird memories, God. That's where they put him (Gunnar) in charge of helping. And he had like these five Indian women that were telling him what to do and how to do it. And he was like, “Whatever you say.” Downie: Whatever you want. (laughter) B Biggs: Palomar Library Association. Wow. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 24 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Because I know you were, you would've been involved early on. B Biggs: Way early on. Yeah. Yeah. You were too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, I edited the newsletter for ten years. B Biggs: Right, right. Downie: But that was also what opened my contacts to where when I first, when I finished my master's, Connie Constantino (former Library Director, United States International University) reached out to me. And I knew her through Palomar Library Association. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. So do they still exist? Downie: No. It became San Diego Region Library Association. And then a couple years later it folded. There, just, I think there were too many divergent interests going on. And again, it's kind of like students you know, when they graduate out, you know, you gotta have at least one driving force. And I think we came to a period where it just wasn't a driving force anymore. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Not sure how far and deep I was involved with-Downie: I know (overlapping dialogue) I've seen some photographs of you at events. B Biggs: At events, yeah. Downie: Because I just saw Alice Rigg (former president of the Palomar Library Association)-B Biggs: Wow. Downie: About a month ago. B Biggs: Carolyn's in touch with her. Downie: Yeah. Carolyn (Funes) got in touch with me to get in touch with Alice. And Alice is moving, downsizing and moving in with her son, and so she found a couple of old photograph binders of early-B Biggs: Wow. And she was pretty involved, right? (Downie affirms) I mean, she was, yeah. Yeah. Downie: It seemed like the public librarians were much more involved in Palomar Library Association than the academics were. I think because we probably just, we were also having-B Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) Had all these other--yeah. Downie: --to publish and research and everything else, where the public librarians, this was a way for them to see each other and be able to congregate. Cause a lot of them couldn't go to ALA and stuff like that. There just wasn't any funding for the public librarians. Transcribed by Aaron 25 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: I hadn't thought about Connie Constantino in forever-G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Downie: But yeah. Were you there when they started the scholarship? Okay. B Biggs: I don't think so. Downie: Okay, because I know they had this scholarship. B Biggs: But I remember someone getting it. Yeah. I'm trying to think who. Downie: Cause I, I haven't been able to track down the memories of how the scholarship got started. B Biggs: Does Alice know? Have you talked to her or? Downie: She wasn't feeling too terribly well that day, so-B Biggs: Okay. Downie: --no, I didn't really push her for a lot of stuff, but yeah. I may reach out to her again. So yeah, bringing up those old memories. (laughs) B Biggs: I mean, PLA (Palomar Library Association), I hadn't thought about that in forever. Well, PLA is also Public Library Association. (Downie affirms) But I mean, but the Palomar-Downie: But Palomar. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Downie: But well, anyway, let's move on to your post-retirement work, because you certainly haven't rested on your laurels, so to speak. You've continued a lot of your initiatives and then you've also gone and done Love on a Leash (nonprofit organization providing pet therapy). But, I know that your liaison work, a lot of it was after you retired from the library. B Biggs: Right. So, Karen Haynes asked me to serve as tribal liaison. She was upset I was retiring as soon as I did. I think I was only sixty. G Biggs: You did it. You bought time. So it was early sixty. B Biggs: I bought time. So, so I was young, but I was ready. I mean, putting in twenty-two years at that, you know, place that the university was at was like putting in forty-four (laughs) in terms of-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 26 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: It was a lot of work. B Biggs: --just everything starting from scratch. So, I was ready to retire. She (Haynes) asked me if I would stay on and do, and I got to just pick my hours work from home. I was on the rez ninety percent of the time. But that's when the, the community task force was really underway. And that's when we started NAC. And I stayed on NAC until just this year. So, I retired in 2007 totally, like stopped being tribal liaison in 2007. Retired as faculty in 2004. I am still, I guess, on the California Indian Sovereignty--Culture and Sovereignty Center (CICSC; founded in 2009). I keep trying not to be, but I'm on. And so the things I continue to stay involved with, I'm trying to help this new Mejaumi (Franco-Rosales) who is replacing Tish(mall Turner) or filling some kind of tribal projects role until they find a tribal liaison. So I'm doing that. The big work now is working with Donna (Uchimura), Uncle Henry's daughter, to get Uncle Henry's archives digitized and to make sure that the family has a great deal of input and oversight. And so that one, that one's happening right now. I understand that Donna has let Joely (Proudfit) know who she wants to be on this committee. When Joely said she wanted to have a committee in this meeting with Donna, my first thought was, “You know what committee means to us.” (laughs) I thought, “Oh my gosh.” So, walking across the bridge with Donna, I said, “You know, you involve family to the extent that you want them.” And so (noise of a phone chime) she's done that. And Sean, she wants Sean (Visintainer). And she knows I'm trying to take a step back, but it's the one thing I can't not do. I just can't, for Henry's sake, I can't abandon the family until that’s done. Downie: Well, that and all parties trust you. You know, and you have such a long-established history of doing what's right and-B Biggs: Yeah, there is trust. Downie: --I don’t think everybody else see their--see the path forward. It's very important. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And I stay in touch. You know, we just visited Pala (reservation) a couple weeks ago. Walked in and there's Chairman (Robert) Smith sitting there, but these are, these are people now who are Casino rich. And you know, so it's a whole different world, but they're just still folks who remember Gunnar and I putting books on a cart and running it over from a little trailer into the new building. So, we still have a relationship with a lot of those libraries. Rincon (California), we recently went out and gave them materials on Luiseño songs. G Biggs: Do you hear Zuni? (family dog) B Biggs: Is she in her dream? G Biggs: She's chirping. (laughs) B Biggs: She's having a dream. (laughs) Downie: And you know, because I worked under you as support staff for what was supposed to be a seven-month appointment, if I remember correctly-B Biggs: Yes. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 27 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Well it turned into four years! B Biggs: I know. Downie: But I would go home at night and I would talk to Dennis and Delaine about what was going on. And I mentioned your work with the tribal libraries. And do you remember Delaine's book project, where she gathered books from-B Biggs: Oh, yeah. Downie: --from her elementary school to donate? B Biggs: Yes. I forgot all about that. Wow. Downie: No. That she, she came up with that idea on her own and, you know-G Biggs: That's too cool. Downie: --I was so proud of her for doing that. But you know, you have inspired things to go out beyond your own efforts, which I think is really important. B Biggs: Oh, that's beautiful. Tell her thank you. (Gunnar laughs) Downie: I will. B Biggs: And can she fix my iPhone? No. (laughter) She works for Apple, right? Downie: She does. B Biggs: Check it out. Somebody you wanna know (laughter). One beautiful overlapping of that, is we have gone out twice, maybe three times, with therapy dogs to the Little Feathers School at Pala Library. So there's the library, and now there's Little Feathers School. Downie: Good. B Biggs: And I've talked a couple of really good friends into--I’ll drive, and it's a long drive--and to go out and take therapy dogs to-Downie: Oh, that’s wonderful. B Biggs: --tribal kids. Yeah. So that, I have to set it up with her again to do that. But that, so that's like both worlds coming back together again, which is-Downie: Because-B Biggs: --a beautiful-- Transcribed by Aaron Williams 28 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: You, you've mentioned this, but there is Love on a Leash, which seems to be a huge portion of your life now. I mean, you were president of the local, the local chapter, right? B Biggs: Right. And National. G Biggs: National. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And vice president for ten years, and still very, very involved. My issue now is just organizing too many events. I'm doing What Gives Your Life Meaning? (CSUSM initiative and campaign for palliative care) in a couple weeks. And I'm having to, I've learned to say no, kind of, to this sorority, that fraternity, that you know, I just can't do--So we've narrowed it down to four big events at Cal State San Marcos. And six libraries and two-Downie: And you've got all those volunteers to organize with their dogs. B Biggs: Yeah. That's what's going on. Yeah. It's kinda-Downie: Multiple sessions. Yeah. And it's admirable that everybody wants you, but there's also, you could have dogs on campus every day. I mean, if you really-B Biggs: I would love to. Downie: --accommodated everybody who asked. B Biggs: Can't do it. Can’t do it. That was a hard one. And I'm having to step down from Cardiff Library because I have twenty minutes down there, and only had one kid to read to the dogs. So it's like they never got it off the ground, two years now. So, and that's hard. Gunnar knows, like, I don't know how to say no. (laughs) And learning to do that. But yeah, that's a, definitely a passion. And I love the university. I think that's the most important. Downie: Well, you do have your bench on the campus, it says-B Biggs: That's right. (overlapping dialogue) He (Gunnar) calls me a bench! (laughs) Downie: --"I love this university,” I believe is what it says on it. B Biggs: Yes, it does. Yeah. Downie: Right next to the one with Dannis (Mitchell, deceased library employee). B Biggs: Yes, yes. (unintelligible) Yeah. Downie: So, I usually have a closing question. Because we've kind of been through my list here, but is there anything you can think about that, you know, or a culminating statement that you would want to say about the years you've had with Cal State? And you too Gunnar? I mean, you've, you've jumped in and reminded and brought up a few things, but-- Transcribed by Aaron Williams 29 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: I love that university, and I love what it gave me the opportunity to do in terms of the work with tribes, the work with Arts and Lectures. Owing books to, you know, I mean, I did work with patrons, but these other peripheral responsibilities are--run deep and are so meaningful to me. So I'm grateful for the opportunity. And even better to bring my dogs back. G Biggs: Yeah. B Biggs: That's just the best. (laughs) G Biggs: Well, for me, because I did take such a long time off from higher education, it is a home that I found. I got a bachelor's degree there that they let me design. It didn't exist before. I didn't know that was possible. The faculty there said, “You can do this.” I got a single subject California teaching credential there, and I actually taught there for three years as well. So, I consider it my academic home. I feel really at home out there. And I still know people that teach there, which is kind of cool. But it was very accepting to me, very flexible and of the highest quality. I mean, the, I almost said floundering. The founding faculty (laughs) came from such great places. They were really good teachers, researchers, and human beings. I was really just totally immersed in their lives and their subjects. So, it was really a nice place to finish up that part. For me. Downie: And I have to agree wholeheartedly with both of you. B Biggs: Aw. When you turn this (recording) off, I have one final story. Downie: Okay. (laughs) Alright, well I think we can end the interview at this point. So if you'll pass the phone over to me, I'll find the off button, wherever it is. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 30 2024-04 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Biggs, Bonnie and Gunnar. Interview transcript, March 26, 2024. Description An account of the resource Bonnie Biggs was the inaugural Tribal Liaison and a Librarian Emeritus at California State University San Marcos. Gunnar Biggs has been a prominent figure in the musical environment in Southern California for over forty years, and is a retired music instructor from San Diego State University and Palomar College. In this interview, Bonnie and Gunnar recall the early history of CSUSM when it transitioned as the North County satellite campus for San Diego State University into CSUSM in 1989. Bonnie also discusses her academic and professional achievements, including her work as the university's Tribal Liaison. Bonnie and Gunnar additionally recall her sabbatical to Ghana, Ghanaian jazz music and musicians, visiting and working with tribal libraries in New Mexico, and Bonnie's most recent work with Love on a Leash. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bonnie Biggs Gunnar Biggs Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-03-26 Subject The topic of the resource American Indian Library Association California Indians California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Tribal Liaison California State University San Marcos. University Library Libraries -- Ghana Jazz -- Ghana Jazz musicians -- Ghana Love on a Leash Patterson, Lotsee Rodriguez, Henry Nichols, 1919-2002 Tribal libraries -- New Mexico Tribal libraries -- Southern California Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ghana New Mexico San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_transcript Art and artists Community history CSUSM history Women's experience