2 10 196 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a8972ffd9ba3cb8b1a442d0fd092a18a.jpg 8024f453e3ca9c3311a9352588cca96a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Uniform Victims Advocate Description An account of the resource Beacham posing as the Uniform Victims Advocate at her unit at Marine Corps System Support Activity Command, 2005 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d48936c9c266ae7c75e98e5e5f8d331f.jpg 43c8b47699ab0e4af1b3a05cd10cc542 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Marine Corps Ball Description An account of the resource Beacham posing with other Marines at the Marine Corps Ball, New Orleans, Louisiana, 1999 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0ff5e6473b6bbfe3d07aca6c51953b9e.jpg 04a2704663d57e21c89201e48f842da6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Marines Program Description An account of the resource Beacham posing with a member of the Young Marines Program, New Orleans, Louisiana, 1999 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/703f4ca8c0c5f10584b54e108076a397.jpg 1d0f93667233931411ebbe616ccf44e0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Marine Corps Ball Description An account of the resource Beacham posing with another Marine at the Marine Corps Ball, Twentynine Palms, California, 1993 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4b976a84a4e32c9e7a01c11852594a0e.jpg 28398b48785afea340ab0e46e41c974d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Good Conduct Medal Description An account of the resource Beacham receiving a Good Conduct Medal award, Okinawa, Japan, 1995 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/9f08e4fd2bf2502091c2607cb9c9376c.jpg c116c651390d776f2cc9a95030910698 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Award Description An account of the resource Beacham receiving an award from Captain Brubaker, New Orleans, Louisiana, 1999 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Beacham, Dora. Photographs, Various dates. Description An account of the resource Six photos related to the oral history of Dora Beacham. Photograph #1 depicts Beacham posing as the Uniform Victims Advocate at her unit at Marine Corps System Support Activity Command, 2005. Photograph #2 depicts Beacham posing with other Marines at the Marine Corps Ball, New Orleans, Louisiana, 1999. Photograph #3 depicts Beacham posing with a member of the Young Marines Program, New Orleans, Louisiana, 1999. Photograph #4 depicts Beacham posing with another Marine at the Marine Corps Ball, Twentynine Palms, California, 1993. Photograph #5 depicts Beacham receiving a Good Conduct Medal award, Okinawa, Japan, 1995. Photograph #6 depicts Beacham receiving an award from Captain Brubaker, New Orleans, Louisiana, 1999. Click on the thumbnails to view the full images in more detail. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1993 - 2005 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d0b28741a345d770078a4154db960e5c.png bb87d77210cca849da18d59e81396a55 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource BeachamD_250px Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Seth Stanley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gezai Berhane OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Berhane, Gezai. Interview March 29th, 2023. SC027-37 00:52:04 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos ; California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; California State University San Marcos. Student Activities ; California State University San Marcos. Greek life ; Refugees -- Eritrea ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Black experience in America Gezai Berhane Seth Stanley Video 1:|13(11)|24(17)|34(6)|45(6)|61(14)|72(13)|83(14)|95(4)|105(14)|118(16)|132(10)|144(8)|159(16)|171(14)|183(8)|197(6)|208(3)|220(15)|231(7)|249(14)|263(4)|273(7)|285(3)|301(7)|313(5)|323(10)|335(7)|346(16)|360(15)|371(17)|381(8)|395(19)|410(7)|419(6)|429(8)|442(17)|453(12)|464(16)|475(3)|486(12)|500(6)|518(4)|528(5)|539(3)|552(10)|564(8)|573(16)|588(13)|599(6)|610(17)|624(7)|640(8)|643(12) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a06b713a6fd9a626ce2c5e87acc28e76.mp4 Other video 0 Introduction and Background Seth Stanley introduces Gezai Berhane, who discusses his background as an Eritrean refugee seeking education in the USA. Additionally, Berhane discusses how he came to work for California State University San Marcos. education ; refugee 0 266 CSUSM Early Days Berhane remembers his experience at CSUSM in the early 1980s as the first graduating class. This experience contributed to his later work at the university. 0 427 Cross-Cultural Center Berhane describes the beginning stages of the Cross-Cultural Center, then known as Multicultural Programs, and it's impacts upon the CSUSM campus. Before diversity could be implemented, Berhane considered the center a symbol for future progress. This includes the foundation of future centers such as the Black Student Center or the Women and Gender Equity Center. 0 829 Memories Berhane briefly speaks about his favorite part of the Cross-Cultural Center in its early days, before speaking more in detail about his experience as an Eritrean-American. Dealing with ignorance and prejudices, Berhane illuminates the importance of diversity and inclusivity education. From his perspective, Berhane witnessed the lackluster American education and media systems that caused such ignorance. Berhane stresses that ignorance should not be blamed upon individuals, but a system-at-large. 0 1150 Impacts of the Cross-Cultural Center and CSUSM Memories of unexpected encounters in the CCC were among Berhane's memorable highlights. Beyond this, Berhane shares that he cannot necessarily separate the impacts of the CCC from CSUSM. Among the first graduating class, he had a unique experience in that he experienced CSUSM over three decades. The Cross-Cultural Center was one part of his work at the university, and considers his total experience at CSUSM impactful. 0 1397 Student Involvement and Orientation As Student Activities Director, student orientation was where Berhane stressed the importance of involvement. Berhane challenged students to stay engaged with their communities. With the Orientation Team, Berhane remembers the bonding experience of a weekend camping trip. 0 1743 Greek Life The course of Greek Life at CSUSM is detailed by Berhane. Beginning in 1993, when Greek Life was not fully recognized, when Berhane was more directly involved. 0 1957 Student Residential Life Before the main CSUSM dormitories were built, Berhane defines his role in facilitating student residential life at leased apartments. Berhane also discusses memories of involving his family in his work, in addition to perceiving careless waste. Berhane offers his perspective as an Eritrean refugee on American consumerism. 0 2245 Thirty Years at CSUSM Berhane and his family lived in San Marcos and bore witness to the development of the city and university. Berhane considers this experience to have given him life. He is beyond grateful for this experience, and instilled this love for knowledge in his children. 0 2499 Student Center Coexistence Berhane refuses to compare or contrast student centers against one another. He considers every center has its individual purpose which changes over time. Beginning in 1992, Berhane was passionate about providing space for those in need. As a Black student, he recalls the desire for a Black student club. This experience informed his later work to provide services to an ever-evolving student body. The importance of centers / service providers reaching students is also discussed. 0 2834 Advice for Future Inclusivity Regarding the future, Berhane stresses vigilant attention to underserviced communities, including students of Asian descent, who do not have an identity-specific space. Berhane stresses the importance of service providers / centers reaching and engaging with students. 0 Gezai Berhane is a California State University San Marcos alumnus, where he was part of the first graduating class. Since his graduation, Berhane was a CSUSM employee until his retirement in 2021. Most recently he worked as Associate Director of Operations. In this interview, Berhane discusses his immigration journey, involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, campus Greek life, and other student centers at California State University San Marcos. Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley, and today I'm interviewing Gezai Berhane. This is for the California State University San Marcos, Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. Today is March 29th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Gezai, thank you for interviewing with me today. I'll start off with a- with some questions. To start off, could you tell us a bit about your background and what led you to become a part of the CSUSM (California State University San Marcos) community? Gezai Berhane: Well, that's a good question, and thanks for this opportunity. My background is, uh, I was born and raised in Eritrea, East Africa. I came to the United States as a refugee in 1983, so I've been here for a long time. But, um, back home when I was back home in Africa, in East Africa, I did not have an opportunity to finish high school. So, my goal, my aspiration was to at least finish high school. So, once I got the opportunity to go to school here, I tried to finish high school, but I was adult, so they say, “You can't even be here in the high school.” So, they kicked me out, but they told me, I can finish high school, uh, through something called the GED (General Educational Development test)? Something like that. And so, I did that. And then, um, I moved to San Marcos in (19)85, where California was cheaper than where I initially landed in the United States, which was South Dakota. A big difference. And so, I took advantage of the opportunity at-- enrolling at Palomar College. Uh, I did two years at Palomar College. Then I got interested more and more in school. By the time I finished Palomar College, Cal State San Marcos was coming. It was a great opportunity and I couldn't resist that. I had plans to go beyond the two-years degree because I missed four years of high school. So at least four years of high school, equivalent to me was continuously going to a four-year college. And so San Marcos came in, so I became one of the first Cal State San Marcos students in 1990. That brought a lot of opportunity actually for me as a new university, uh, starting from scratch. For me not having any other experience coming from another country and not knowing a whole lot about college, I was involving myself at Cal State San Marcos because every time they need somebody, volunteer, student assistance, do this and that. I was just trying to be as involved as I can, just, and as a result of that, after graduating 1992, among the first 1992 graduates, I was, then I got hired to, as a student, I was involved with student organizations, with Associated Students (Incorporated, i.e. student governance) and staff. So, my involvement led to a permanent position here on campus. And that first job and things like that was in the Dean of Students Office. And then by 1993, in the beginning, we were assigned a department to start a new department called Student Activities and Alumni Services. That is the root cause of the Student Life and Leadership, the Student and Residential Life (campus departments). I've been part of that since, again, I can say even though as a student, I started in 1990, I was also an employee or student assistant with the campus. So I have seen the growth of the campus from day one as a result of that-- Cross-Cultural Center, I know we'll get back to it, but that is as a result of growing departments and services to a growing population. So that's what (it) looks like a little bit on my background about who I am, as it relates to Cal State San Marcos. Stanley: And you were saying you were part of the first graduate, one of the first graduating classes of CSUSM. Could you maybe describe what the university was like in its early days? Berhane: Well, I don't know if you, if you wanna call it the university. We were taking all our classes at the, well, we used to, still refer to it, Cal State Jerome's. It was office buildings by, near the Jerome’s (furniture store) building. But luckily, SDSU (San Diego State University) had an extended classes in those areas. So, Cal Sate San Marcos didn't start it from the beginning. So there was some kind of structure as far as classrooms and things like that at Cal State Jerome's. So, all of my two years’ classes were taken there. But we graduated from the, uh, Craven Circle. We had our first graduation right there. We used the stairs, um, as a, as chairs for the guests, but we had chairs for the graduates, I was one of those. It was (a) very tight-knit community. We knew each other, the students knew each other. The faculty, staff, administrators knew each other by name, by everything, and all kinds of activities, including playing soccer with some faculty members at the Bradley Park. I mean, all kinds of stuff. Like, you know, if you were with the Dean of students, uh, you just called them by name. you as President Stacy, you were President Stacy, he’s Bill Stacy's office. Right. Because everything was just community. We knew each other. It was a community. The faculty, on the other hand, had a task to make sure that they're building a compatible, very viable university as a new university. So there was some challenge- they tried to challenge us, the students, but we were all re-entry, returners, transfers, no freshmen at the time. So, we met the challenge and exceeded the challenge. Within one year, we started Associated Students (student governance). Okay? We, I mean, a lot of things, because we were all mature returners and all of that. We met all the challenges and pa- and way beyond. So as a student, I just felt like I was so grateful for all of that opportunity. And so, my experience as a student here was great. Stanley: That's great. I love that all that does, the community and faculty knowing each other, stuff like that. Anyway, moving on to the Cross-Cultural Center, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Berhane: Okay. So this was, um, like, you know 10 years or later that the Cross-Cultural Center was implemented and, and whatnot. Uh, so the department, that the Cross-Cultural Center was under was named Student and Residential Life. We became Student and Residential Life. Just (to) give you a little bit of background, why residential life and student activities? Um, in the early, 2000s, the, the Division of Student Affairs, had a reorganization of certain departments on campus. Our department, the student, the Center for Student Involvement, which dealt with student organization, recognition leadership programs, and overseeing ASI (Associated Students Incorporated), ASI elections- was just called Center for Student Involvement. It initially was Student Activities and Alumni Services. Alumni Services split when it became, when it remained Student Activities only, we called it Center for Student Involvement, CSI. That then, like I say, as a result of the division's effort to try to reorganize the division in different departments, they brought the Residential Life and the Student Activities together. Once they brought us together, we decided to find a new name for these two departments coming together. So eventually we came up with Student and Residential Life, SRL. And so, while we were functioning on as a, an SRL, Cross-Cultural Center was added again, I mean, to that department. So we used to call it “C3.” We used to call it Multicultural Programs. I mean, C3 was the most popular name for Cross-Cultural Center. C3. And because the department, the SRL and the office that was assigned for Cross-Cultural Center were together, you just step outside, pass the bathroom, you go to the Cross-Cultural Center. It was just, again, even though we knew we were all part of one department overall, SRL. But having that we have to step outside and go and sit there and they started it with couches, not just chairs. It was just comfortable to go there and engage with the students who were there. Stanley: Do you, uh, remember any sort of activities or programs that the early Cross-Cultural program were, making happen? Berhane: I don't recall all the different, I know there is a, a big event that is, I don't know what it's called now that you do every year, but the, it was more for me, my memory in the fourth floor on Craven Hall (Administrative Building), on the fourth floor. Uh, when we were there initially it was more, okay, here is a program, a space for students to come and engage with each other and sit and relax and have a place to go to. Uh, but it has been a long time. So, I can't say I remember doing this and that with them. But I know there is something as a result of that, whatever started earlier, now there is an annual program and event that Cross-Cultural Center (inaudible). Stanley: So, um, in what ways would you say the Cross-Cultural Center has impacted CSUSM? Berhane: Well, I don't know if it is an impact to CSUSM, but I know Cal State San Marcos from the beginning has been saying diversity, the value of diversity has always been on the mission statement from day one. So the university to show that they are, you know, that being the first center for Multicultural Programs, you know, this is way before there was Black Student Center, Latino Center (Latin /x Center), Native American Center (California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center), and all of that. To say, let's start with something to at least say, call it a center for cross-cultural, you know, multicultural programs. To me, it was an indication, even though it was after many, many years of hearing the word diversity as part of our mission, serving a diverse community, all of that, to start with something like that, I think it was, a great initiative, it was. And look what happened after that. Okay, so there's Multicultural Programs. What do we do? What is next? What is next? And I think it's a great start. It helped the university start with something successful. Completion of that (Cross-Cultural Center) led to different centers, as you can see where we are right now. I think that's how I look at it, because like I say, I've been hearing the word diverse community, diversity, divers(ity), you know, our mission is to serve our population, diverse population and all of that. So I think it was a good start. So I would say it was a good experience for the university to start with something like that, as opposed to specifically, you know, as one of the different centers that we have right now. Stanley: Yeah. And you say you keep hearing the word diversity, but, would you say that the Cross-Cultural Center actually did have an impact on creating a more inclusive campus on, at CSUSM? Berhane: Well, like everything else, you know, if something’s to... to have impact or something’s to be popular or to be something, it has to be known to more people. Even though, with us through orientations, or everything else, as a campus, again it was more of a, campus with no housing on-campus, everybody was more, you live somewhere else, you come to classes and you will leave. So in the beginning, to be honest, there was not a whole lot of people using it (The Cross-Cultural Center). Uh, only a small group of people would use it. So if you’re there more often, you bring your friends. If I’m there more often, I’ll bring maybe more of my friends. But to the campus as a whole, uh, it was symbolic to have that, but I'm not sure to what, how much that impacted more student population at, you know, at that time. Stanley: Um-hmm. What is the, what's a favorite memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center, um, and how did it maybe affect you personally or professionally? Berhane: Um, I think I mentioned this before, when we talked (before the interview). It's more, um, you know, I work in the office. I’m with the students a lot. You know, many times I'm doing leadership programs, meeting with other students or with other staff members and things like that. So, to me, the Cross-Cultural Center was a place to go and do nothing but just relax. Because it was couches in there and then you're not there seriously to engage in a very, you know, other than just being there to have fun with people and just chat how students are doing. And so to me, it was a place to go, and whether it's through the Associate Directors that are working there, or whether it's through the students who are sitting there, it was a place where you can be free to chat with people and not really be doing work at that time. Uh, so that was how I looked at the center, in my memories, like saying, the couches are always in my head (laughs). Stanley: Um, looks like we have enough time for these questions. Um, since the Cross-Cultural Center has a lot to do with diversity, inclusiveness, and like being more (inaudible), I noticed when I was researching you that you've had a lot of trouble with people knowing where Eritrea is, and you're telling people, I do remember reading a newspaper article from, I think it was 1990, where you say, “Where is Eritrea? People keep asking me,” and I just wanted to say, do you still feel frustration, towards those who do not know where Eritrea is on the map? And do you still find yourself explaining where it is on a regular basis? Berhane: Well, in the beginning, before I knew how much students actually had a chance to learn about history or geography, it was, “Why don't they know,” you know? “They go to school.” We, when we were in elementary school, we knew all the different countries in the world and who the president was, what the capital city is, and then in the case of African countries when they became independent and things like that. Like it’s initiated in, I mean, like I said earlier, Eritrea when I left was at war for independence. So but, it was not covered in the mainstream media as a country fighting for independence. So when I came here, at least I had expected some people to know, because we had Americans stationed in Eritrea, you know, in the fifties, sixties, seventies. So some people should know where Eritrea is. So, for me to say it is near Sudan, it’s by the Red Sea, it’s near Ethiopia. And so in the beginning I was seriously educating people, but later on it became like, funny to me. It is like, “Where is Eritrea?” Well, the first question always is, “What's your name?” “I'm Gezai.” “Where are you from?” “I'm from Eritrea.” “Where is that?” (Stanley laughs) And then it became like, okay, I'm not gonna spend a whole lot of time educating you because you have no clue. So I'll say it's, uh, a little farther than, uh, L.A. just by Santa Barbara. Oh, okay. I haven't heard of that. (laughs) No, you wouldn't have heard of that, but I'm sure you heard of Santa Barbara. So the easiest answer for me is, yeah, just go look at it, (laughs), and there was no Google where, you know, we got the search and things like that. So it became funny afterwards because then it's like, it's just a waste of time too. And then if you say, I'm from Africa. Oh, but I've never heard of Eritrea. Well, that's too bad you never heard of Eritrea but that's where I came from. So, I think I transitioned from taking it seriously to maybe blaming a little bit more the educational system that we are not educating people even, you know, at the bachelor's level in the history class or geography. There was a, um, a map that was given, and we have countries identified here so it says, identify where these countries are, you know, on the map. People don't even know the United States, the States where they're supposed to be located! So then I realized, you know, it's not their fault. They just didn't have enough education about different countries, let alone, I mean about their country let alone about other people's countries. So I don't blame people. I don't get frustrated anymore. I'm like, “This is funny.” Depending on how I am interacting with the person, I can either say I'm in Africa or I can just say I'm near Santa Barbara, and that will take care of the business (both laugh). Stanley: Well, love that. It's (inaudible), just in one ear, out the other. Oh, that's cool- Berhane: That's good. Yeah. Stanley: Um, going back to the Cross-Cultural Center, you said that you would spend a lot of time just having fun in there. Could you recall a time with a specific person or a memory inside the Cross-Cultural Center that you remember fondly? Berhane: I think it was more with the second associate director or the first associate directors, and not necessarily with the students, because the names of the students, again, twenty years later, I'm getting too old to remember all of that, even though I can see their faces. It's harder to recall their names right now. But I think it's more the interaction with, um, unscheduled interaction with whether it’s with the associate director, or students who are regular. We used to call it regular students, but to be specifically telling you about individual students, it would be very hard for me. And I'll be lying to you and I don't wanna do that. Stanley: Okay. Well, uh, in what ways, uh, if any, did your involvement with the Cross Culture Center help you expand or develop as a person? And how has that impacted your career or personal life? Berhane: I mean, (laughs), as I said, as an involved person on campus, my professional and personal life as it grows, that I have gained as being part of this campus, it's enormous. It's countless, to tell you the truth, I grew up here. So Cal State San Marcos is home for me. I don't think there's a lot of other people who have started here and remained here for thirty years. Okay? I just retired in 2020-- at the end of 2021, which is thirty years later, since the university started. So the impact that grows personal and professional for me, I can't specifically try to address as a Cross-Cultural Center is, but I think my interaction with people who work at the Cross-Cultural Center, students who came to the Cross-Cultural Center, and being part of student activities. The leadership programs that this department has been planning and going, you know, whether it's going there, whether it is supporting the, uh, initial paperwork and whatnot, working with that group in general is part of my personal and professional growth. So I can't really say specifically and directly this and that. For me, it's more a, uh, the total sum of my overall experience, not just Cross-Cultural Center. Student Activities, Associated Students, the Dean of Students, the whole entire division. And in, and faculty too, as you indicated earlier. You know, if I have interactions with faculty, because we had to work with faculty members because they were supposed to be the advisor of student activity, I mean, student organization advisors, we had to work with faculty as well in doing some kind of orientation about their role and leadership programs, and how to help the student leaders and stuff. So for me, my primary function was in student activities, working with student leaders, student clubs, and organizations. So, the Cross-Cultural Center is, has been, was part of, part and parcel of Student Activities, but my main function wasn't directly that. So. But like I say, as within one department, we have orientation programs, for example. We had Greek Life, we had (to) oversee ASI (Associated Students, Inc.). All of those combined are the result of who I am, as opposed to try to, you know, narrowly say, yeah, this is how, and what the Cross-Cultural Center has left me as an impact. I don't wanna commit to that. Stanley: Let's go broader then. Berhane: Okay Stanley: Um, as a student activities director, were there any activities that you organized that you were particularly connected to or the, uh, moment on campus where you felt that you were promoting inclusiveness and diversity? Berhane: Well, I mean, a lot of the programs that we used to do from Student Activities is more... Okay, so if I notice that certain student groups that are not active, that are not really engaged, and what we used to do is go into orientations from the beginning to say, “You gotta remain active on campus.” This is, look at me, I never dreamed of working on campus or the university, ever whatsoever. You go to school, to college and you graduate, and you go look for a job somewhere else, but I'm here. So, students, you need to get engaged, you need to get involved. So, me encouraging all the new students that were coming in, or if they were here, and if I get to interact, I like to walk around and see if people are out there who would like to say hello, if they're not engaged, if they're not the student organizations. And within student organizations, if they're not taking leadership roles and things like that, I encourage people at whatever level they are. And so that's, you know, for me, I was fond of encouraging students to take leadership roles, to stay engaged, to work on campus, even at least as a student activity, and I mean as student assistants. And so for me it's more the day-to-day interactions with students, not just in generally, I mean. So, every year we know student organizations have to renew their contract every year. We have to do some leadership program trainings every year. And that's where you meet all the student leaders, and that's how you continue to engage with them and continue to advise them and continue to help them grow. And so for me, it's more, it's really hard to say yes, thirty years of experience is like to narrow it into one event or into one program. I've been part of student, I mean, ASI for example, Associated Students, (Inc.), we started with paper ballots, you know, like check-in the paper ballots. Then we moved to scantrons where you can do scantron, you (Stanley) probably don't remember. And then we had to go move up to online voting and things like that. So, you have to go through so much growth. And so, when you’re part of a lot of new engagements, new initiatives, it’s like you forget it because once you move to the next level, you just forget about that and now you're at next level. So for me, uh, like I say, it's thirty years of engaging with the students, faculty and staff, with administrators. It was a lot of the, a lot of the things that we see right now, whether it is programs through Cross-Cultural Center, or through what used to be SLL, Student Live and Leadership, now it's SLIC (both laugh), Student Leadership and Involvement (Center), something like that. SLIC, they just changed it. Um, a lot of the programs, a lot of orientation. I also worked with housing. So, housing was another area where, where you are engaged with students coming in with family, with their parents, you were engaged and things like that. And so, for me, it's just a, I was not like static in one department or in one function doing just one specific thing. I have been engaged within a lot of different things on campus. So that to me is, it makes it harder for me. It's like, as a result of me doing what specific area, this is where I am, or this is where I was, this is where I got. Is it just so much that I can say I've been a part of? And as a result, I grew up with it (laughs) and I even got retired, bro. (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. You say, that you really don't know, like what, I couldn't really go into specifics. Um, could I ask you to tell me just, just any story that you might have, of helping a student or being involved in the, on campus or anything like that? Berhane: Um, so for example, on Orientation Team. Stanley: Mm-hmm. Berhane: Orientation Team is, there's a training every year. We go camping. You go camping to Ramona or to Alpine (California) or things like that. My most memorable memories with the students is when you are going to those kinds of three, four-day trainings and camping and you are doing all kinds of crazy things in there. And so for me, my most memorable uh, fun memories are related to the orientation team going places and being trained. Things on campus, we've done so much. But when you get outta here and do other activities off campus, those were memorable. Stanley: Um, let's see here. Um, could you tell me about your involvement with Greek Life? Berhan: (laughs) Greek Life? Hmm. So when we initially started the department Student Activities in 1993, Greek life was not recognized as Greek Life. Greek life was more, you can initiate, but we are not gonna recognize you as a Greek Life organization because first of all, you have to go and communicate with the National Greek (Life) Association (National Panhellenic Conference). The campus was not a grown-up campus. And so my engagement with Greek life was more before they became Greek Life, before they became recognized, um, Greek organizations. It was more you give, they give them (pseudonyms) and we know where they're heading, but they recognized as student organizations where it's not supposed to discriminate membership based on gender and whatnot. Because as you know, Greek organizations are based on gender, kind of like the sororities, fraternities and things like that. So their names were not as Greek names. It was more a pseudo-other names. We know where they're heading, that's where they're trying and planning. But my, so in the early days when I was part of, you know, when they were part of that student organization, they were just student organizations. That's my experience with them. Once we recognized them, we started recognizing them, then the process of working with them moved to a new Greek Life advisor. And I remained with the rest of the other student organizations. So Greek Life before they became Greek Life, yes, I know who they were. I worked with them as their advisor. But once we have started to recognize them fully, then a Greek Life advisor has to come. A Greek Life advisor was hired. That's how we kind of-- we are in the same department, but me doing student organizations, these other person, Greek life leadership programs, all of us. And then orientation, and then Cross-Cultural Center, you know, all coming from within this department. Stanley: Um, you mentioned that, uh, they had to use pseudonyms instead of real Greek names. I was wondering if you could remember any of the names. Berhane: I can't. I can't. I'm sorry. I mean, we have to go back to the, the good old days. Um, we had, you know, documents. I don't have any of the documents, but if you wanna go search what the earlier, earlier student organizations... You kind of, you can find it in the (19)93, 94, 95 years, what student organizations were. I think some of that list might be still in student activities or SLIC or ASI might have that list as well. But it was, like I say, it is very hard for me to remember all of those. But it was three or four different student organizations. Stanley: Well, thank you for the reference at least. Um, you talked about, about how you were involved with student residential life, um, in the same vein as being working earlier in CSUSM. How was residential, residential life in CSUSM earlier on? Berhane : So before the, uh, UVA (University Village Apartments), the university village was built, the campus had leased apartments in what we call it, uh, the islands apartments. The Islands Apartments. Out of many of the apartments, the university leased several buildings and rooms. So we used to house students. And so even though I was working still in Student Activities, the Director of Student Activities was also overseeing the, uh, of campus housing. We called it the off-campus housing initiative. And so I was, I happened to be the other person also to help with that. So it was, again, off campus, the Islands Apartments. It's off of Wood, you know, in San Marcos, if you are familiar with San Marcos, uh, Twin Oaks (Road) going east, there is the golf course. Right across the golf course. There's Woodward. Woodward is a street. So I think they changed the name, but it used to be called the Islands Apartment. And so even though we were not, nobody was resident in there from us, the staff members, we were there to support students. It was, I was part of that. And that's pretty much so. And then once we build the UVA, the University Village, then everybody new has to take over. Uh, even though to this day, the Dean of Students where I worked overseas housing, all housing. So the directors of the on-campus housing, I think they also reported to the Dean of Students. And so, me remaining in, within the Dean of Students, under the Dean of Students kind of gave me an opportunity to really engage in work or move in, move out and things like that. But my experience with housing started with off-campus housing, and I continued to also do a list of off-campus housing. Um, so it still is in existence, I think. Stanley: Sorry, I keep, I keep asking you, but, uh, do you have any sort of (Berhane laughs) say sort of story or memorable moment in those residential, like when you were helping people move in or move out or stuff like that? Berhane: Yeah, it's just, so maybe a fun memories is where, you know, I live very close to them. And so if I take my kids with me and have my kids in there and, uh, see where, you know, this is for students, college students, I think for me it's more like my whole family was involved in things like that wherever I go, whether it's an event here. But fun memories with off campus housing, I mean, there was a lot of stuff people throw away and things like that. It’s like, you know, there's a lot. And for me, with my background from Africa. Like, there's a lot of people who could use all of those things. Things that are being thrown away. And it just-- things that I can think as like memories, okay, they're going throw the mattress to the trash, I mean, throwing it, oh wow, (laughs), somebody could have used that one. Uh, things like that. But I mean, in engaging specifically with individual students to say, I know so and so, so and so, is not there yet. It's not there anymore. (laughs) It's not there. Like the fact that I can remember the Islands Apartment because it was the initial apartments. We had students who lived there, you know, the residents of, uh, you know, a subleased apartment, but we were administering it and things like that. I think those things, I can see the apartments and the people, some people, but not a, uh, not a whole lot of memory of individuals. Stanley: Um, how, how has seeing CSUSM grow over the years impacted you, and your life around the CSUSM community? Berhane: Ahh. You know, I indicated earlier, I came to San Marcos when San Marcos was really a, uh, a mobile home community, a retirement community. When there was no stop signs or four, you know, four-way stops. It was just, you go from one place to another with no stop and five minutes was enough to get you from where you are to where you need to go, where you want to go. The fact that for thirty some years right now, I've seen the growth of San Marcos in general as a community, to where we are right now. It's very hard for me to believe, to tell you the truth. It's just very hard for me to believe. So, the impact is from this small community, retirement community, a neat community to the kind of growth that you see-- even when we moved here (from CSU Jerome’s campus) in 1992, we only had, what, four buildings? This building (Kellogg Library), Commons, Academical Hall, Science Hall. That was it. That was it. It was just fine. It was nice. Now to see where we are, even though in, you know, in (inaudible) there was, uh, something called, “in twenty-five years Cal State San Marcos is supposed to have grown to have up to 25,000 students.” Well, for different reasons that didn't happen. Economy and whatnot and whatnot. But for me, I like the fact that it has grown. So my kids can go to the schools where they went to. Richland (Elementary School), Woodland (Park Middle School), Mission Hills (High School). But those things, well Mission (High School) was not there. I mean, all the growth for me to be able, instead of going (to) San Diego State to be able to finish in San Marcos, I had benefited a lot to be part of it. I mean, extra lucky to be working in here instead of San Diego or moving to other kinds of states or other cities. San Marcos in general, as a community, as a university, gave me life. Life. Do you know, life? Life. It gave me life. So for me, it's beyond, I'm beyond grateful for the impact that Cal State San Marcos. The fact that Cal State San Marcos, when it came time, the place, were everything, I raised three kids in San Marcos who all three of 'em went to like, oh, I told you Richland, Woodland, and then went to college. None of them came here (CSUSM) ‘cause Daddy works here (laughs). So they had to go to different states. But, um, but they knew where, what my expectations of them, they knew they were part of, I was part of this. And they knew they were not just going to finish high school and not go to college. So they all did at least their four, the four-year degree. So for me, it is life. My experience, the people that I come to know here at the university, the faculty, staff, students, it gave me life. I'm telling you, I don't know where I would've been if it wasn’t for Cal State San Marcos. And the whole general San Marcos, the whole area. So I'm very, very grateful. Stanley: That's, that's incredible. Um, yeah, it's just, it's almost like a, it's become like a campus town at this point now. Berhane: Oh my God. Oh my gosh. I mean, when I was a student, there was no parking fees or anything (laughs). Now I have (to) pay, like an hour. You pay my job, just leave me (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. There's a train that runs along now. Berhane: That's a different story (laughs). That's a different story, man. Stanley: Getting back, uh, as we're winding down, um, I know that you had, you were involved with the Black Student Union and Black Student Center. How would would you say that pro, those programs and that, what's the word, uh, correlates or stacks up against the Cross-Cultural Center? I'd say, so. Berhane: Um, I think what, you know, during time, with time you have to identify all the different things that you need, who needs what. And so, I don't know, I don't wanna compare or compete or anything as, you know, not just a Black Student Center, not just a Latino Center, not just a Women's Center or a Native American Center. It's more they all have their own individual roles to play in the, in, in, you know, in this community. So, Black Student Center was a necessary department, was a necessary service, a necessary center to have on campus. If we are going to have specific groups feeling welcomed and that they have a space on campus. With Multicultural Programs its good, when multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-gender, or whatever you call it, in name. It-- but they're able to come and use that as a center for that. But I think people feel comfortable where they feel they belong to. Just like the student organizations. When I was a student, when I see a sociology club, accounting club, Latino club, well, I wanted to have the Black Student Club. So I was part of a Black student club. Uh, we were calling it African American or African Student Organization, African, all kinds of stuff, trying to say we have something that belongs to us. So for me, it's not like in comparison to other centers, it was necessary to have a center for the Black students to feel comfortable enough to go there. And so for us, again, as advocates for services to different interests of different student groups, to have that implemented and to see that while I was a student, I while I was an employee here, was a great thing. I was always involved like I say from day one, whether since starting a student organization, once I became a staff (employee designation), we have the Black Faculty and Staff Association. I've been part of that (inaudible) since day one. When we graduated in 1992, I became one of the board members with the Alumni Association, starting Alumni Association I can say I've been part of a lot of starting things because I think the need, the need is there and if I'm able to help on engage(ment), why not? So I as, as someone who was active as a student, once I graduated, I was also pulled to help start the Alumni Association. And so I think, you know, in trying to answer your question, it's not really in competition or one over the other or against the other. It's more providing services to the different populations, different groups with different interests that we have on campus. Stanley: Uh, yeah, perhaps I worded that a little wrong. You touched on this before, but what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center play as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces like you named before? Berhane: I think it requires an understanding of what its mission is, an understanding. So if I'm coming as a student, new student coming to campus, I'm a Black student. I'm not going to ask for multicultural programs where, you know, “Where is a multicultural program?” I'm gonna ask, where is a Black Student Center? If I'm going to join a student organization, I'm either going to ask for something related to my major or something related to my identity. And so, multicultural, Cross-Cultural Center, the definition of it needs to be clear to people from day one at orientation. Okay? And so, yes, it does have a mission. Yes, it does have a purpose to be here on campus to serve, but is it serving the group of people who don't have a center already? Or is it bringing all the centers together? And so, uh, reexamination of the whole purpose of Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center might be necessary at some point to say, “Who am I serving?” Okay? Because you have Latino Center here, Women's Center, gender, you know, gender and Black Student Center, there may be a need to really qualify, “Why should I go there?” Even though I know I'm familiar with it. But if I am a newcomer, what am I gonna look for? It does serve a population that doesn't, that doesn't fit any of the other ones (other centers). But what extent do they understand it? To what extent are they familiar and aware of this service and this center? Stanley: I guess the same thing I ask as a longtime CSUSM (staff and administrative) member and student of CSUSM, what advice would you give the Cross-Cultural Center to be more inclusive and, and get those people who are outside of the lines of the Latin( /x) Center, or the Black (Student) Center? Berhane: I don't know if, uh, Floyd (Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time of the interview’s recording) will need my advice. I'm sure he, he is very familiar with what he's doing and what, you know, what he sees all the different centers around him, and he works very closely with the student centers and stuff. So they don't really need my advice. But I think, you know, always doesn't hurt to go back and look at who is, who is being engaged here? Who is our population? Who is the most frequently arrival here in relation to-- So if I were to look back at who the most popular, what population used to be there... more often it is more of the Asian population. Okay. So the Asian population probably don't have any other location, but the Multicultural Programs (Cross-Cultural Center). Because we, I'm being honest, this Black Student center, Latino Center, Indian Center, there's an argument there should be a White center too. But (laughs), that's a different story. But I think the thing is, you know, a lot of, we’ve got to go back and take a look at the purpose of this center. Are we serving the population that we were formed to serve and continually revise. Take, you know, take notes of all the people who have come to you on a daily basis and see if we are missing anybody. If we are missing anybody, the best place to meet them is at orientation. When they all come in on campus with their families and you know, tell them where all the different services are, make that as a, you know, make it as an effort. I used to do recruitment too even when I was a student assistant. Students who heard me talk about “Cal State Marcos will offer you this, this, and that.” Once they come to Cal State San Marcos, if they experience the things that I told them ; Cal State San Marcos will serve you, they (the students) would remember that and say, “I'm so glad that you said that. I am glad I heard you say that.” And I can see, and really, I use that and it's helped, it has helped me. I really appreciate that. So, we need to be able to impact students from the day one, what kind of services we are providing for them and why they should come to our department, why they should come to our service, why they should come to my class, why they should do those things at the orientation, at wherever they are at the beginning. And so, identify your population, identifying all the different services you can provide, as much as you can provide. You don't expect someone, uh, search you and come to your office. They're not, they're not gonna come, unless they hear you say something, something. Stanley: So, yes. So to, to uh, summarize, make people aware of the program. Make sure that you know who you're serving and that, why they should come there. Berhane: Yes. That's how I feel. That's how I feel. I mean, people need to know. A lot of people if they, if you don't know it, you don't know it, you're not going to go and search for it. You haven't heard anybody talking about it. So even though it may be available in your fingertips, this is different. Maybe I'm old fashioned, maybe I'm more like from person to person, but for me, the only way people can come to (the services) is (if) they're aware of it. So make it aware and be clear about what services you're providing and where you are located, what your hours are, your phone number and blah blah. And have 'em (students) come. And it, again, it doesn't have to be limited to orientation or one area or this and that. Could be classrooms. It could be announcements, it could be a lot of things. But make sure that, you know, you are known on campus for providing services that all students need or specific students need. Stanley: All right. Well I really appreciate you coming. I'm gonna end the recording now. Berhane: Well, thank you. Uh, let me say thank you, uh, Seth, for this opportunity. And I say I'm grateful that you invited me and that I'm a part of this. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29.xml BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Berhane, Gezai. Interview March 29th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Gezai Berhane is a California State University San Marcos alumnus, where he was part of the first graduating class. Since his graduation, Berhane was a CSUSM employee until his retirement in 2021. Most recently he worked as Associate Director of Operations. In this interview, Berhane discusses his immigration journey, involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, campus Greek life, and other student centers at California State University San Marcos. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-37 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Greek life California State University San Marcos. Student Activities Refugees -- Eritrea Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-29 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gezai Berhane Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Eritrea San Marcos, (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Gezai Berhane Black experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Immigrant experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/359f5ef004ef9f5cb67d3fe184e762f6.pdf 7724afdb765683fbb93150f5ec6d7e48 PDF Text Text GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley, and today I'm interviewing Gezai Berhane. This is for the California State University San Marcos, Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. Today is March 29th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Gezai, thank you for interviewing with me today. I'll start off with a- with some questions. To start off, could you tell us a bit about your background and what led you to become a part of the CSUSM (California State University San Marcos) community? Gezai Berhane: Well, that's a good question, and thanks for this opportunity. My background is, uh, I was born and raised in Eritrea, East Africa. I came to the United States as a refugee in 1983, so I've been here for a long time. But, um, back home when I was back home in Africa, in East Africa, I did not have an opportunity to finish high school. So, my goal, my aspiration was to at least finish high school. So, once I got the opportunity to go to school here, I tried to finish high school, but I was adult, so they say, “You can't even be here in the high school.” So, they kicked me out, but they told me, I can finish high school, uh, through something called the GED (General Educational Development Test)? Something like that. And so, I did that. And then, um, I moved to San Marcos in (19)85, where California was cheaper than where I initially landed in the United States, which was South Dakota. A big difference. And so, I took advantage of the opportunity at-- enrolling at Palomar College. Uh, I did two years at Palomar College. Then I got interested more and more in school. By the time I finished Palomar College, Cal State San Marcos was coming. It was a great opportunity and I couldn't resist that. I had plans to go beyond the, two-years degree because I missed four years of high school. So at least four years of high school, equivalent to me was continuously going to a four-year college. And so San Marcos came in, so I became one of the first Cal State San Marcos students in 1990. That brought a lot of opportunity actually for me as a new university, uh, starting from scratch. For me not having any other experience coming from another country and not knowing a whole lot about college, I was involving myself at Cal State San Marcos because every time they need somebody, volunteer, student assistance, do this and that. I was just trying to be as involved as I can, just, and as a result of that, after graduating 1992, among the first 1992 graduates, I was, then I got hired to, as a student, I was involved with student organizations, with Associated Students (Incorporated, i.e. student governance) and staff. So, my involvement led to a permanent position here on campus. And that first job and things like that was in the Dean of Students Office. And then by 1993, in the beginning, we were assigned a department to start a new department called Student Activities and Alumni Services. That is the root cause of the Student Life and Leadership, the Student and Residential Life (campus departments). I've been part of that since, again, I can say even though as a student, I started in 1990, I was also an employee or student assistant with the campus. So I have seen the growth of the campus from day one as a result of that --Cross-Cultural Center, I know we'll get back to it, but that is as a result of growing departments and services to a growing population. So that's what (it) looks like a little bit on my background about who I am, as it relates to Cal State San Marcos. Stanley: And you were saying you were part of the first graduate, one of the first graduating classes of CSUSM. Could you maybe describe what the university was like in its early days? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: Well, I don't know if you, if you wanna call it the university. We were taking all our classes at the, well, we used to, still refer to it, Cal State Jerome's. It was office buildings by, near the Jerome’s (furniture store) building. But luckily, SDSU (San Diego State University) had an extended classes in those areas. So, Cal Sate San Marcos didn't start it from the beginning. So there was some kind of structure as far as classrooms and things like that at Cal State Jerome's. So, all of my two years’ classes were taken there. But we graduated from the, uh, Craven Circle. We had our first graduation right there. We used the stairs, um, as a, as chairs for the guests, but we had chairs for the graduates, I was one of those. It was (a) very tight-knit community. We knew each other, the students knew each other. The faculty, staff, administrators knew each other by name, by everything, and all kinds of activities, including playing soccer with some faculty members at the Bradley Park. I mean, all kinds of stuff. Like, you know, if you were with the Dean of students, uh, you just called them by name. you as President Stacy, you were President Stacy, he’s Bill Stacy's office. Right. Because everything was just community. We knew each other. It was a community. The faculty, on the other hand, had a task to make sure that they're building a compatible, very, viable university as a new university. So there was some challenge- they tried to challenge us, the students, but we were all re-entry, returners, transfers, no freshmen at the time. So, we met the challenge and exceeded the challenge. Within one year, we started Associated Students (student governance). Okay? We, I mean, a lot of things, because we were all mature returners and all of that. We met all the challenges and pa- and way beyond. So as a student, I just felt like I was so grateful for all of that opportunity. And so, my experience as a student here was great. Stanley: That's great. I love that all that does, the community and faculty knowing each other, stuff like that. Anyway, moving on to the Cross-Cultural Center. Could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Berhane: Okay. So this was, um, like, you know 10 years or later that the Cross-Cultural Center was implemented and, and whatnot. Uh, so the department, that the Cross-Cultural Center was under was named Student and Residential Life. We became Student and Residential Life. Just (to) give you a little bit of background, why residential life and student activities? Um, in the early, 2000s, the, the Division of Student Affairs, had a reorganization of certain departments on campus. Our department, the student, the Center for Student Involvement, which dealt with student organization, recognition leadership programs, and overseeing ASI (Associated Students Incorporated), ASI elections- was just called Center for Student Involvement. It initially was Student Activities and Alumni Services. Alumni Services split when it became, when it remained Student Activities only, we called it Center for Student Involvement, CSI. That then, like I say, as a result of the division's effort to try to reorganize the division in different departments, they brought the Residential Life and the Student Activities together. Once they brought us together, we decided to find a new name for these two departments coming together. So eventually we came up with Student and Residential Life, SRL. And so, while we were functioning on as a, an SRL, Cross-Cultural Center was added again, I mean, to that department. So we used to call it “C3.” We used to call it Multicultural Programs. I mean, C3 was the most popular name for Cross-Cultural Center. C3. And because the department, the SRL and the office that was assigned for Cross-Cultural Center were together, you just step outside, pass the bathroom, you go to the Cross-Cultural Center. It was just, again, even though we knew we were all part of one department overall, SRL. But having that we have Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 to step outside and go and sit there and they started it with couches, not just chairs. It was just comfortable to go there and engage with the students who were there. Stanley: Do you, uh, remember any sort of activities or programs that the early Cross-Cultural program were, making happen? Berhane: I don't recall all the different, I know there is a, a big event that is, I don't know what it's called now that you do every year, but the, it was more for me, my memory in the fourth floor on Craven Hall (Administrative Building), on the fourth floor. Uh, when we were there initially it was more, okay, here is a program, a space for students to come and engage with each other and sit and relax and have a place to go to. Uh, but it has been a long time. So, I can't say I remember doing this and that with them. But I know there is something as a result of that, whatever started earlier, now there is an annual program and event that Cross-Cultural Center (inaudible). Stanley: So, um, in what ways would you say the Cross-Cultural Center has impacted CSUSM? Berhane: Well, I don't know if it is an impact to CSUSM, but I know Cal State San Marcos from the beginning has been saying diversity, the value of diversity has always been on the mission statement from day one. So the university to show that they are, you know, that being the first center for Multicultural Programs, you know, this is way before there was Black Student Center, Latino Center (Latin@/x Center), Native American Center (California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center), and all of that. To say, let's start with something to at least say, call it a center for cross-cultural, you know, multicultural programs. To me, it was an indication, even though it was after many, many years of hearing the word diversity as part of our mission, serving a diverse community, all of that, to start with something like that, I think it was, a great initiative, it was. And look what happened after that. Okay, so there's Multicultural Programs. What do we do? What is next? What is next? And I think it's a great start. It helped the university start with something successful. Completion of that (Cross-Cultural Center) led to different centers, as you can see where we are right now. I think that's how I look at it, because like I say, I've been hearing the word diverse community, diversity, divers(ity), you know, our mission is to serve our population, diverse population and all of that. So I think it was a good start. So I would say it was a good experience for the university to start with something like that, as opposed to specifically, you know, as one of the different centers that we have right now. Stanley: Yeah. And you say you keep hearing the word diversity, but, would you say that the CrossCultural Center actually did have an impact on creating a more inclusive campus on, at CSUSM? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 3 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: Well, like everything else, you know, if something’s to... to have impact or something’s to be popular or to be something, it has to be known to more people. Even though, with us through orientations, or everything else, as a campus, again it was more of a, campus with no housing oncampus, everybody was more, you live somewhere else, you come to classes and you will leave. So in the beginning, to be honest, there was not a whole lot of people using it (The Cross-Cultural Center). Uh, only a small group of people would use it. So if you’re there more often, you bring your friends. If I’m there more often, I’ll bring maybe more of my friends. But to the campus as a whole, uh, it was symbolic to have that, but I'm not sure to what, how much that impacted more student population at, you know, at that time. Stanley: Um-hmm. What is the, what's a favorite memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center, um, and how did it maybe affect you personally or professionally? Berhane: Um, I think I mentioned this before, when we talked (before the interview). It's more, um, you know, I work in the office. I’m with the students a lot. You know, many times I'm doing leadership programs, meeting with other students or with other staff members and things like that. So, to me, the Cross-Cultural Center was a place to go and do nothing but just relax. Because it was couches in there and then you're not there seriously to engage in a very, you know, other than just being there to have fun with people and just chat how students are doing. And so to me, it was a place to go, and whether it's through the Associate Directors that are working there, or whether it's through the students who are sitting there, it was a place where you can be free to chat with people and not really be doing work at that time. Uh, so that was how I looked at the center, in my memories, like saying, the couches are always in my head. (laughs). Stanley: Um, looks like we have enough time for these questions. Um, since the Cross-Cultural Center has a lot to do with diversity, inclusiveness, and like being more (inaudible), I noticed when I was researching you that you've had a lot of trouble with people knowing where Eritrea is, and you're telling people, I do remember reading a newspaper article from, I think it was 1990, where you say, “Where is Eritrea? People keep asking me,” and I just wanted to say, do you still feel frustration, towards those who do not know where Eritrea is on the map? And do you still find yourself explaining where it is on a regular basis? Berhane: Well, in the beginning, before I knew how much students actually had a chance to learn about history or geography, it was, “Why don't they know,” you know? “They go to school.” We, when we were in elementary school, we knew all the different countries in the world and who the president was, what the capital city is, and then in the case of African countries when they became independent and things like that. Like it’s initiated in, I mean, like I said earlier, Eritrea when I left was at war for independence. So but, it was not covered in the mainstream media as a country fighting for independence. So when I came here, at least I had expected some people to know, because we had Americans stationed in Eritrea, you know, in the fifties, sixties, seventies. So some people should know Transcribed by Aaron Williams 4 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 where Eritrea is. So, for me to say it is near Sudan, it’s by the Red Sea, it’s near Ethiopia. And so in the beginning I was seriously educating people, but later on it became like, funny to me. It is like, “Where is Eritrea?” Well, the first question always is, “What's your name?” “I'm Gezai.” “Where are you from?” “I'm from Eritrea.” “Where is that?” (Stanley laughs) And then it became like, okay, I'm not gonna spend a whole lot of time educating you because you have no clue. So I'll say it's, uh, a little farther than, uh, L.A. just by Santa Barbara. Oh, okay. I haven't heard of that. (laughs) No, you wouldn't have heard of that, but I'm sure you heard of Santa Barbara. So the easiest answer for me is, yeah, just go look at it, (laughs), and there was no Google where, you know, we got the search and things like that. So it became funny afterwards because then it's like, it's just a waste of time too. And then if you say, I'm from Africa. Oh, but I've never heard of Eritrea. Well, that's too bad you never heard of Eritrea but that's where I came from. So , I think I transitioned from taking it seriously to maybe blaming a little bit more the educational system that we are not educating people even, you know, at the bachelor's level in the history class or geography. There was a, um, a map that was given, and we have countries identified here so it says, identify where these countries are, you know, on the map. People don't even know the United States, the States where they're supposed to be located! So then I realized, you know, it's not their fault. They just didn't have enough education about different countries, let alone, I mean about their country let alone about other people's countries. So I don't blame people. I don't get frustrated anymore. I'm like, “This is funny.” Depending on how I am interacting with the person, I can either say I'm in Africa or I can just say I'm near Santa Barbara, and that will take care of the business (both laugh). Stanley: Well, love that. It's (inaudible), just in one ear, out the other. Oh, that's cool- Berhane: That's good. Yeah. Stanley: Um, going back to the Cross-Cultural Center, you said that you would spend a lot of time just having fun in there. Could you recall a time with a specific person or a memory inside the Cross-Cultural Center that you remember fondly? Berhane: I think it was more with the second associate director or the first associate directors, and not necessarily with the students, because the names of the students, again, twenty years later, I'm getting too old to remember all of that, even though I can see their faces. It's harder to recall their names right now. But I think it's more the interaction with, um, unscheduled interaction with whether it’s with the associate director, or students who are regular. We used to call it regular students, but to be specifically telling you about individual students, it would be very hard for me. And I'll be lying to you and I don't wanna do that. Stanley: Okay. Well, uh, in what ways, uh, if any, did your involvement with the Cross Culture Center help you expand or develop as a person? And how has that impacted your career or personal life? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: I mean, (laughs), as I said, as an involved person on campus, my professional and personal life as it grows, that I have gained as being part of this campus, it's enormous. It's countless, to tell you the truth, I grew up here. So Cal State San Marcos is home for me. I don't think there's a lot of other people who have started here and remained here for thirty years. Okay? I just retired in 2020-- at the end of 2021, which is thirty years later, since the university started. So the impact that grows personal and professional for me, I can't specifically try to address as a Cross-Cultural Center is, but I think my interaction with people who work at the Cross-Cultural Center, students who came to the Cross-Cultural Center, and being part of student activities. The leadership programs that this department has been planning and going, you know, whether it's going there, whether it is supporting the, uh, initial paperwork and whatnot, working with that group in general is part of my personal and professional growth. So I can't really say specifically and directly this and that. For me, it's more a, uh, the total sum of my overall experience, not just Cross-Cultural Center. Student Activities, Associated Students, the Dean of Students, the whole entire division. And in, and faculty too, as you indicated earlier. You know, if I have interactions with faculty, because we had to work with faculty members because they were supposed to be the advisor of student activity, I mean, student organization advisors, we had to work with faculty as well in doing some kind of orientation about their role and leadership programs, and how to help the student leaders and stuff. So for me, my primary function was in student activities, working with student leaders, student clubs, and organizations. So, the Cross-Cultural Center is, has been, was part of, part and parcel of Student Activities, but my main function wasn't directly that. So. But like I say, as within one department, we have orientation programs, for example. We had Greek Life, we had (to) oversee ASI (Associated Students, Inc.). All of those combined are the result of who I am, as opposed to try to, you know, narrowly say, yeah, this is how, and what the Cross-Cultural Center has left me as an impact. I don't wanna commit to that. Stanley: Let's go broader then. Berhane: Okay Stanley: Um, as a student activities director, were there any activities that you organized that you were particularly connected to or the, uh, moment on campus where you felt that you were promoting inclusiveness and diversity? Berhane: Well, I mean, a lot of the programs that we used to do from Student Activities is more... Okay, so if I notice that certain student groups that are not active, that are not really engaged, and what we used to do is go into orientations from the beginning to say, You gotta remain active on campus. This is, look at me, I never dreamed of working on campus or the university, ever whatsoever. You go to school, to college and you graduate, and you go look for a job somewhere else, but I'm here. So, students, you need to get engaged, you need to get involved. So, me encouraging all the new students that were coming in, or if they were here, and if I get to interact, I like to walk around and see if people are out there who would like to say hello, if they're not engaged, if they're not the student organizations. And Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 within student organizations, if they're not taking leadership roles and things like that, I encourage people at whatever level they are. And so that's, you know, for me, I was fond of encouraging students to take leadership roles, to stay engaged, to work on campus, even at least as a student activity, and I mean as student assistants. And so for me it's more the day-to-day interactions with students, not just in generally, I mean. So, every year we know student organizations have to renew their contract every year. We have to do some leadership program trainings every year. And that's where you meet all the student leaders, and that's how you continue to engage with them and continue to advise them and continue to help them grow. And so for me, it's more, it's really hard to say yes, thirty years of experience is like to narrow it into one event or into one program. I've been part of student, I mean, ASI for example, Associated Students, (Inc.), we started with paper ballots, you know, like check-in the paper ballots. Then we moved to scantrons where you can do scantron, you (Stanley) probably don't remember. And then we had to go move up to online voting and things like that. So, you have to go through so much growth. And so, when you’re part of a lot of new engagements, new initiatives, it’s like you forget it because once you move to the next level, you just forget about that and now you're at next level. So for me, uh, like I say, it's thirty years of engaging with the students, faculty and staff, with administrators. It was a lot of the, a lot of the things that we see right now, whether it is programs through Cross-Cultural Center, or through what used to be SLL, Student Live and Leadership, now it's SLIC (both laugh), Student Leadership and Involvement (Center), something like that. SLIC, they just changed it. Um, a lot of the programs, a lot of orientation. I also worked with housing. So, housing was another area where, where you are engaged with students coming in with family, with their parents, you were engaged and things like that. And so, for me, it's just a, I was not like static in one department or in one function doing just one specific thing. I have been engaged within a lot of different things on campus. So that to me is, it makes it harder for me. It's like, as a result of me doing what specific area, this is where I am, or this is where I was, this is where I got. Is it just so much that I can say I've been a part of? And as a result, I grew up with it (laughs) and I even got retired, bro. (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. You say, that you really don't know, like what, I couldn't really go into specifics. Um, could I ask you to tell me just, just any story that you might have, of helping a student or being involved in the, on campus or anything like that? Berhane: Um, so for example, on Orientation Team. Stanley: Mm-hmm. Berhane: Orientation Team is, there's a training every year. We go camping. You go camping to Ramona or to Alpine (California) or things like that. My most memorable memories with the students is when you are going to those kinds of three, four-day trainings and camping and you are doing all kinds of crazy things in there. And so for me, my most memorable uh, fun memories are related to the orientation team going places and being trained. Things on campus, we've done so much. But when you get outta here and do other activities off campus, those were memorable. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Stanley: Um, let's see here. Um, could you tell me about your involvement with Greek Life? Berhan: (laughs) Greek Life? Hmm. So when we initially started the department Student Activities in 1993, Greek life was not recognized as Greek Life. Greek life was more, you can initiate, but we are not gonna recognize you as a Greek Life organization because first of all, you have to go and communicate with the National Greek (Life) Association (National Panhellenic Conference). The campus was not a grown-up campus. And so my engagement with Greek life was more before they became Greek Life, before they became recognized, um, Greek organizations. It was more you give, they give them (pseudonyms) and we know where they're heading, but they recognized as student organizations where it's not supposed to discriminate membership based on gender and whatnot. Because as you know, Greek organizations are based on gender, kind of like the, sororities, fraternities and things like that. So their names were not as Greek names. It was more a pseudo other names. We know where they're heading, that's where they're trying and planning. But my, so in the early days when I was part of, you know, when they were part of that student organization, they were just student organizations. That's my experience with them. Once we recognized them, we started recognizing them, then the process of working with them moved to a new Greek Life advisor. And I remained with the rest of the other student organizations. So Greek Life before they became Greek Life, yes, I know who they were. I worked with them as their advisor. But once we have started to recognize them fully, then a Greek Life advisor has to come. A Greek Life advisor was hired. That's how we kind of-- we are in the same department, but me doing student organizations, these other person, Greek life leadership programs, all of us. And then orientation, and then Cross-Cultural Center, you know, all coming from within this department. Stanley: Um, you mentioned that, uh, they had to use pseudonyms instead of real Greek names. I was wondering if you could remember any of the names. Berhane: I can't. I can't. I'm sorry. I mean, we have to go back to the, the good old days. Um, we had, you know, documents. I don't have any of the documents, but if you wanna go search what the earlier, earlier student organizations... You kind of, you can find it in the (19)93, 94, 95 years, what student organizations were. I think some of that list might be still in student activities or SLIC or ASI might have that list as well. But it was, like I say, it is very hard for me to remember all of those. But it was three or four different student organizations. Stanley: Well, thank you for the reference at least. Um, you talked about, about how you were involved with student residential life, um, in the same vein as being working earlier in CSUSM. How was residential, residential life in CSUSM earlier on? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 8 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane : So before the, uh, UVA (University Village Apartments), the university village was built, the campus had, leased apartments in what we call it, uh, the islands apartments. The Islands Apartments. Out of many of the apartments, the university leased several buildings and rooms. So we used to house students. And so even though I was working still in Student Activities, the Director of Student Activities was also overseeing the, uh, of campus housing. We called it the off-campus housing initiative. And so I was, I happened to be the other person also to help with that. So it was, again, off campus, the Islands Apartments. It's off of Wood, you know, in San Marcos, if you are familiar with San Marcos, uh, Twin Oaks (Road) going east, there is the golf course. Right across the golf course. There's Woodward. Woodward is a street. So I think they changed the name, but it used to be called the Islands Apartment. And so even though we were not, nobody was resident in there from us, the staff members, we were there to support students. It was, I was part of that. And that's pretty much so. And then once we build the UVA, the University Village, then everybody new has to take over. Uh, even though to this day, the Dean of Students where I worked overseas housing, all housing. So the directors of the on-campus housing, I think they also reported to the Dean of Students. And so, me remaining in, within the Dean of Students, under the Dean of Students kind of gave me an opportunity to really engage in work or move in, move out and things like that. But my experience with housing started with off-campus housing, and I continued to also do a list of off-campus housing. Um, so it still is in existence, I think. Stanley: Sorry, I keep, I keep asking you, but, uh, do you have any sort of (Berhane laughs) say sort of story or memorable moment in those residential, like when you were helping people move in or move out or stuff like that? Berhane: Yeah, it's just, so maybe a fun memories is where, you know, I live very close to them. And so if I take my kids with me and have my kids in there and, uh, see where, you know, this is for students, college students, I think for me it's more like my whole family was involved in things like that wherever I go, whether it's an event here. But fun memories with off campus housing, I mean, there was a lot of stuff people throw away and things like that. It’s like, you know, there's a lot. And for me, with my background from Africa. Like, there's a lot of people who could use all of those things. Things that are being thrown away. And it just-- things that I can think as like memories, okay, they're going throw the mattress to the trash, I mean, throwing it, oh wow, (laughs), somebody could have used that one. Uh, things like that. But I mean, in engaging specifically with individual students to say, I know so and so, so and so, is not there yet. It's not there anymore. (laughs) It's not there. Like the fact that I can remember the Islands Apartment because it was the initial apartments. We had students who lived there, you know, the residents of, uh, you know, a subleased apartment, but we were administering it and things like that. I think those things, I can see the apartments and the people, some people, but not a, uh, not a whole lot of memory of individuals. Stanley: Um, how, how has seeing CSUSM grow over the years impacted you, and your life around the CSUSM community? Berhane: Ahh. You know, I indicated earlier, I came to San Marcos when San Marcos was really a, uh, a mobile home community, a retirement community. When there was no stop signs or four, you know, four-way stops. It was just, you go from one place to another with no stop and five minutes was enough Transcribed by Aaron Williams 9 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 to get you from where you are to where you need to go, where you want to go. The fact that for thirty some years right now, I've seen the growth of San Marcos in general as a community, to where we are right now. It's very hard for me to believe, to tell you the truth. It's just very hard for me to believe. So, the impact is from this small community, retirement community, a neat community to the kind of growth that you see-- even when we moved here (from CSU Jerome’s campus) in 1992, we only had, what, four buildings? This building (Kellogg Library), Commons, Academical Hall, Science Hall. That was it. That was it. It was just fine. It was nice. Now to see where we are, even though in, you know, in (inaudible) there was, uh, something called, “in twenty-five years Cal State San Marcos is supposed to have grown to have up to 25,000 students.” Well, for different reasons that didn't happen. Economy and whatnot and whatnot. But for me, I like the fact that it has grown. So my kids can go to the schools where they went to. Richland (Elementary School), Woodland (Park Middle School), Mission Hills (High School). But those things, well Mission (High School) was not there. I mean, all the growth for me to be able, instead of going (to) San Diego State to be able to finish in San Marcos, I had benefited a lot to be part of it. I mean, extra lucky to be working in here instead of San Diego or moving to other kinds of states or other cities. San Marcos in general, as a community, as a university, gave me life. Life. Do you know, life? Life. It gave me life. So for me, it's beyond, I'm beyond grateful for the impact that Cal State San Marcos. The fact that Cal State San Marcos, when it came time, the place, where everything, I raised three kids in San Marcos who all three of 'em went to like, oh, I told you Richland, Woodland, and then went to college. None of them came here (CSUSM) ‘cause Daddy works here (laughs). So they had to go to different states. But, um, but they knew where, what my expectations of them, they knew they were part of, I was part of this. And they knew they were not just going to finish high school and not go to college. So they all did at least their four, the four-year degree. So for me, it is life. My experience, the people that I come to know here at the university, the faculty, staff, students, it gave me life. I'm telling you, I don't know where I would've been if it wasn’t for Cal State San Marcos. And the whole general San Marcos, the whole area. So I'm very, very grateful. Stanley: That's, that's incredible. Um, yeah, it's just, it's almost like a, it's become like a campus town at this point now. Berhane: Oh my God. Oh my gosh. I mean, when I was a student, there was no parking fees or anything (laughs). Now I have (to) pay, like an hour. You pay my job, just leave me (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. There's a train that runs along now. Berhane: That's a different story (laughs). That's a different story, man. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Stanley: Getting back, uh, as we're winding down, um, I know that you had, you were involved with the Black Student Union and Black Student Center. How would would you say that pro, those programs and that, what's the word, uh, correlates or stacks up against the Cross-Cultural Center? I'd say, so. Berhane: Um, I think what, you know, during time, with time you have to identify all the different things that you need, who needs what. And so, I don't know, I don't wanna compare or compete or anything as, you know, not just a Black Student Center, not just a Latino Center, not just a Women's Center or a Native American Center. It's more they all have their own individual roles to play in the, in, in, you know, in this community. So, Black Student Center was a necessary department, was a necessary service, a necessary center to have on campus. If we are going to have specific groups feeling welcomed and that they have a space on campus. With Multicultural Programs its good, when multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-gender, or whatever you call it, in name. It-- but they're able to come and use that as a center for that. But I think people feel comfortable where they feel they belong to. Just like the student organizations. When I was a student, when I see a sociology club, accounting club, Latino club, well, I wanted to have the Black Student Club. So I was part of a Black student club. Uh, we were calling it African American or African Student Organization, African, all kinds of stuff, trying to say we have something that belongs to us. So for me, it's not like in comparison to other centers, it was necessary to have a center for the Black students to feel comfortable enough to go there. And so for us, again, as advocates for services to different interests of different student groups, to have that implemented and to see that while I was a student, I while I was an employee here, was a great thing. I was always involved like I say from day one, whether since starting a student organization, once I became a staff (employee designation), we have the Black Faculty and Staff Association. I've been part of that (inaudible) since day one. When we graduated in 1992, I became one of the board members with the Alumni Association, starting Alumni Association I can say I've been part of a lot of starting things because I think the need, the need is there and if I'm able to help on engage(ment), why not? So I as, as someone who was active as a student, once I graduated, I was also pulled to help start the Alumni Association. And so I think, you know, in trying to answer your question, it's not really in competition or one over the other or against the other. It's more providing services to the different populations, different groups with different interests that we have on campus. Stanley: Uh, yeah, perhaps I worded that a little wrong. You touched on this before, but what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center play as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces like you named before? Berhane: I think it requires an understanding of what its mission is, an understanding. So if I'm coming as a student, new student coming to campus, I'm a Black student. I'm not going to ask for multicultural programs where, you know, “Where is a multicultural program?” I'm gonna ask, where is a Black Student Center? If I'm going to join a student organization, I'm either going to ask for something related to my major or something related to my identity. And so, multicultural, Cross-Cultural Center, the definition of it needs to be clear to people from day one at orientation. Okay? And so, yes, it does have a mission. Yes, it does have a purpose to be here on campus to serve, but is it serving the group of people who don't have a center already? Or is it bringing all the centers together? And so, uh, reexamination of the whole purpose of Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center might be necessary at some point to say, “Who am I serving?” Okay? Because you have Latino Center here, Women's Center, gender, you know, gender and Black Student Center, there may be a need to really qualify, “Why should I go there?” Transcribed by Aaron Williams 11 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Even though I know I'm familiar with it. But if I am a newcomer, what am I gonna look for? It does serve a population that doesn't, that doesn't fit any of the other ones (other centers). But what extent do they understand it? To what extent are they familiar and aware of this service and this center? Stanley: I guess the same thing I ask as a longtime CSUSM (staff and administrative) member and student of CSUSM, what advice would you give the Cross-Cultural Center to be more inclusive and, and get those people who are outside of the lines of the Latin(@/x) Center, or the Black (Student) Center? Berhane: I don't know if, uh, Floyd (Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time of the interview’s recording) will need my advice. I'm sure he, he is very familiar with what he's doing and what, you know, what he sees all the different centers around him, and he works very closely with the student centers and stuff. So they don't really need my advice. But I think, you know, always doesn't hurt to go back and look at who is, who is being engaged here? Who is our population? Who is the most frequently arrival here in relation to-- So if I were to look back at who the most popular, what population used to be there... more often it is more of the Asian population. Okay. So the Asian population probably don't have any other location, but the Multicultural Programs (Cross-Cultural Center). Because we, I'm being honest, this Black Student center, Latino Center, Indian Center, there's an argument there should be a White center too. But (laughs), that's a different story. But I think the thing is, you know, a lot of, we’ve got to go back and take a look at the purpose of this center. Are we serving the population that we were formed to serve and continually revise. Take, you know, take notes of all the people who have come to you on a daily basis and see if we are missing anybody. If we are missing anybody, the best place to meet them is at orientation. When they all come in on campus with their families and you know, tell them where all the different services are, make that as a, you know, make it as an effort. I used to do recruitment too even when I was a student assistant. Students who heard me talk about “Cal State Marcos will offer you this, this, and that.” Once they come to Cal State San Marcos, if they experience the things that I told them; Cal State San Marcos will serve you, they (the students) would remember that and say, “I'm so glad that you said that. I am glad I heard you say that.” And I can see, and really, I use that and it's helped, it has helped me. I really appreciate that. So, we need to be able to impact students from the day one, what kind of services we are providing for them and why they should come to our department, why they should come to our service, why they should come to my class, why they should do those things at the orientation, at wherever they are at the beginning. And so, identify your population, identifying all the different services you can provide, as much as you can provide. You don't expect someone, uh, search you and come to your office. They're not, they're not gonna come, unless they hear you say something, something. Stanley: So, yes. So to, to uh, summarize, make people aware of the program. Make sure that you know who you're serving and that, why they should come there. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 12 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: Yes. That's how I feel. That's how I feel. I mean, people need to know. A lot of people if they, if you don't know it, you don't know it, you're not going to go and search for it. You haven't heard anybody talking about it. So even though it may be available in your fingertips, this is different. Maybe I'm old fashioned, maybe I'm more like person to person, but for me, the only way people can come to (the services) is (if) they're aware of it. So make it aware and be clear about what services you're providing and where you are located, what your hours are, your phone number and blah blah. And have 'em (students) come. And it, again, it doesn't have to be limited to orientation or one area or this and that. Could be classrooms. It could be announcements, it could be a lot of things. But make sure that, you know, you are known on campus for providing services that all students need or specific students need. Stanley: All right. Well I really appreciate you coming. I'm gonna end the recording now. Berhane: Well, thank you. Uh, let me say thank you, uh, Seth, for this opportunity. And I say I'm grateful that you invited me and that I'm a part of this. I hope I have given you what I know a little bit, but I really appreciate this opportunity and thank you very much as well. Stanley: I enjoyed the conversation as well. Ending the recording now. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 13 2023-10-30 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Berhane, Gezai. Interview transcript. March 29th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Gezai Berhane is a California State University San Marcos alumnus, where he was part of the first graduating class. Since his graduation, Berhane was a CSUSM employee until his retirement in 2021. Most recently he worked as Associate Director of Operations. In this interview, Berhane discusses his immigration journey, involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, campus Greek life, and other student centers at California State University San Marcos. This interview was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from California State University San Marcos's Instructionally Related Activities Fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gezai Berhane Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-29 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Greek life California State University San Marcos. Student Activities Refugees -- Eritrea Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Eritrea San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Gezai Berhane Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29 Black experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Immigrant experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/74d79b268796f9fd4fe70c39672ea551.pdf b89704ddedb683cf46b70c975e8540c2 PDF Text Text BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: All right, so we are now running. Okay. So, this is Judith Downie, curator of the Brewchive® (archive dedicated to preserving the history of the craft brewing industry in San Diego, CA) and History Librarian and Special Collections at Cal State San Marcos, with Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs to talk about Bonnie and Gunnar's history of Cal State San Marcos and other related pieces of their lives. So, I'm, this picks up pretty well. So we shouldn't have-Bonnie Biggs: Oh, it does. Okay. You want me to sit down? Downie: Well, or let's see. We can maybe put it between the two of you. Okay. You know, because whatever I say, I'll just say it loudly. B Biggs: Oh, okay. Downie: So, yeah, again, this will be Bonnie for the most part, but Gunnar will certainly be jumping in with memory jogs and his personal recollections as well. So, let's start off with Bonnie, your personal history. Where-B Biggs: Okay. Downie: Where did you grow up and some background on your education. B Biggs: Okay. I grew up not far from you (referring to Downie; laughs). I grew up in Vista, California and went to Vista High School. Then I went on to Palomar College, got an AA (Associate in Arts) degree, went to San Diego State, got a BA (Bachelor of Arts) in British Literature after the 1800s. And then onto USC (University of Southern California) for my Master's in Library Science. Downie: Okay. Gunnar, how about you? Gunnar Biggs: Oh. Downie: Where did you grow up, and your education? G Biggs: I grew up in San Diego, California, about a block from San Diego State (University; SDSU). My father was a faculty member in the music department there. And from there I went to North Texas State University in Denton, Texas for a couple of years. Then I took a twentyyear gap, going on the road playing music. And I came back and I got my bachelor's at Cal State San Marcos in Ethnic Studies and Global Arts, after completing my general ed(ucation) at Palomar College. And that's, yeah, that's about it in terms of my education. Downie: Okay. And so where did the two of you meet? B Biggs: Jazz Club. G Biggs: It was the Hyatt Islandia on Mission Bay. (laughs) Downie: Gunnar’s got the details. (Laughs) Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a friend take me to, to hear the French horn player. They usually don't play jazz, and this phenomenal famous piano player, but I liked the bass player. G Biggs: Which is very unusual (laughter) for the bass player to get the nod, you know? B Biggs: Yeah. So that's, and that was in 1981. Downie: Alright. So, let's move on to your professional history, Bonnie. I've sketched out a timeline from what I know, but of course I can be imperfect. So, we'll start with, I know you worked in public libraries-B Biggs: Yes. Downie: Before you moved into the academic library field. B Biggs: Yeah. I started my career at the Encinitas Library. Not the one we see now, the big beautiful one (snapping noise). But on that same site in 1973, and I worked there for nine years. And then I was moved to Solana Beach to become the branch manager for four years. And during that time, met him (Gunnar) and started going to grad school up at USC while I managed the Solana Beach Library. And when I got my master's I started looking around, and that's when I found SDSU North County. (I) was looking for a library (overlapping dialogue). Downie: So, what year would that have been? B Biggs: The SDSU North County? I would've started in 1986. Downie: Okay. B Biggs: And we were-Downie: That was long after they had established that satellite campus (SDSU North Couty satellite campus that officially became CSUSM in 1989). B Biggs: Right. I think it had been around, I think since the late seventies. I'm sure you've got history in the (overlapping dialogue) archives. Downie: Limited history, limited history. I think it's mostly at San Diego State. B Biggs: Yeah. So, it was San Diego State North County, and I was the librarian, and under the wonderful Dick Rush (CSUSM's first executive vice president). Whom we (Bonnie and Gunnar) just saw a couple weeks ago, had lunch with him. And what was interesting, he was less interested in my librarianship as my arts and lectures chops, because I had been doing music and a lot of outreach in the public library system. And he wanted to get San Diego State North County out to the community. We were in Jerome's (furniture store in San Marcos) parking lot, right. So we started having concerts, thanks to Gunnar. We got amazing musicians and put on festivals and, you know, Mexican fiestas and jazz con- you know, jazz. It was like a festival, actually-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 G Biggs: It was a jazz festival. B Biggs: So, so we started doing that. And then of course, I had to be a librarian too. That was always the thing. I had to do both. And that carried over when we (SDSU North County satellite campus) became Cal State San Marcos. Downie: So then you were at San Diego State North County while it was still in Vista (California). B Biggs: It wasn't in Vista at that time, but yeah, I know what you're talking about. It was, it had just started in San Marcos. But I know where that campus was. It was in the old Vista High, where I went to high school. So by ‘86 when I started, they had already moved into the Jerome's lot (building used for the campus that later became that furniture store). Downie: Oh, okay. That’s all very fuzzy in our records, so I've never been too sure. So that helps clarify that. B Biggs: Sandy Punch (retired CSUSM administrator) might be a good one to talk to. In fact, I have lunch with her this month. Yeah. Downie: Tell her I'm hunting for her. (laughs) B Biggs: I will, I'll do that. She'll love it. Downie: Okay. So, you were there for the transitionB Biggs: Oh, boy. Downie: To San Diego State North County. So, you never actually worked at San Diego State Libraries? B Biggs: No, San Diego State North County only. But I will tell you there, there were a couple of librarians at the main campus who were my mentors and who helped me make that transition, because it's a different world andDownie: From public to academic. B Biggs: Oh my goodness. Yeah. So, Philip White comes to mind. He was a very, very good friend. And he even came up a couple of times. Just having to do with working with faculty, developing the collection. The trick was the faculty was changing because they were starting to phase out North Count-- Well, they were solid for a while, but we were bringing in Cal State San Marcos faculty. So at one point I was reporting to two deans. When they hired Marion (Reid), she became my dean of the library. But I also was reporting kind of to Pat Huckle, who was the dean of San Diego State North County. Whom we just saw last week. We took her to lunch. So I stay in touch with the, these wonderful leaders that I got to, to work with. Downie: Okay, so you didn't have to move San Diego State North County or CSUSM to the Valecito site, Jerome's (Bonnie affirms) West, as we all call it. Because it had already moved. Transcribed by Aaron 3 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 But what sorts of, I mean, you were answering to two deans (Bonnie affirms) at the very least. But there must have been other challenges and opportunities in this whole transition from being a satellite of San Diego State University to its own freestanding Cal State San Marcos. So, what do you remember of that? B Biggs: I remember that it, I didn't know that much about academic politics at the time, but I remember there was a lot of it. And (I) started to figure out what the landscape was and just treaded very carefully, made friends with a lot of the faculty. David Whitehorse comes to mind, he’s one of my best friends there. He was San Diego State North County. And then beginning to get to know the founding faculty at Cal State (San Marcos). I remember there was a part of us at San Diego State North County who didn't want the change. We were thrilled that the state wanted to have this new university. We just had a nice little comfy warm tight-knit organization. And so, it was chaos for a while. And bringing Bill Stacy (founding president, CSUSM) on, luckily he and Dick Rush got along pretty well. As they also transitioned from one to the other. G Biggs: Didn't they fast track the change over? It was, it happened before people had-B Biggs: Very quick. G Biggs: --predicted. It was one day they were a satellite, and the next day they said, “We're about to move to the new campus as soon as it builds in.” You know, so. B Biggs: I'm trying to think who the governor was at the time that came down. G Biggs: Yeah. It was like, it was a governor's decision to go-B Biggs: And signed the paperwork. Downie: Was that (George) Deukmejian? (laughs) B Biggs: It wasn't, no. Wasn't (Bill) Craven. I mean, it was, was it a senator? Anyway, some, some, I have a photo in one of these somewhere of-Downie: Well, we have a signed certificate, I think from (Governor) Gray Davis. B Biggs: That might, that was probably it. Yeah. Yeah. He would've been the governor then. Yeah. So, that was when things got a little bit strange because we started to phase things out at North County and move. And that's when we took over the other building across the street. And the library moved into that space. Marion coming from, 'cause there, there's a question here (laughs). How, you know, she didn't know what to call me or what to offer me as a position because, to have called me Assistant Dean, that implies tenure and, you know, academic credit that far exceeded what I had at the time. I was just, you know, a public librarian learning to be. So she, but generously, I think it was generous, she gave me the title of Assistant to the Dean. And of course I was that, I assisted her on many things, head of, then it became Head of Public Services, or (unintelligible), it was called Coordinator for Public Services. They call it patron, is it now, it's not public services-Downie: User services, (overlapping) what we call it. Transcribed by Aaron 4 Williams 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: User services, I like that. Yeah. And then later Arts and Lectures (curriculum-linked events produced by CSUSM College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral and Social Sciences). So there, there I had one business card with three titles on it, which I think a lot of people did at that new university. Downie: Yeah. We all had to do a variety of jobs. And we were not in the, centralized or no, I forget what the term is, but where you just kind of did things. It got done, it got taken care of, and it's gotten so much structure-B Biggs: Crossing lines-Downie: Permissions and paying for everything. Where it used to just be, it got done and somebody covered the cost. (Bonnie affirms). But it does seem like there would've been a lot of long hours and obviously confusion as to lines of responsibility, but it got worked out. B Biggs: It really did. Downie: Seems like. B Biggs: And luckily, on one end, we had Dick Rush who, I got to tell him at lunch a couple weeks ago, what a wonderful leader he was. He constantly took time out, when we didn't even have time to go to the bathroom or breathe and gather us around his desk or somewhere in the library, and just let us know how wonderful we were and how much our work was appreciated. And what that does, you know, it gives you a shot in the arm and you just keep going. And Pat Huckle was the one, again my other dean saying, “Bonnie, at the end of the day, it's just gonna be a dead librarian if we keep this up.” (Gunnar laughs) Meaning she got--I told her about that the other day. (Laughs) It, she gave me the permission to place some limits in my ability to do all the stuff we were required to do. We were thought to be doing. And I don't know that that slowed me down a whole lot, but-Downie: Probably not. B Biggs: Yeah. G Biggs: Well, Dick, Dick told you the library is the heart of a university. (Bonnnie affirms). So that's where he came from. Initially it was like, build this library and you will have a successful university. So that kind of put the weight on your shoulders. (Bonnie affirms). “Okay, I gotta build the heart.” B Biggs: And the fact that he wanted the arts made such a difference in that tiny little Jerome's library, bringing the principal brass of the San Diego Symphony because of his (Gunnar) connections, for a concert. And Peter Sprague (jazz guitarist) out in the parking lot. It just, it put us on the map, in a tiny way. Because people saw, that there, there actually was a campus there kind of (laughs). Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Yeah. So even years later, I was at a conference and somebody said, “Oh, San Diego State North County.” I'm like, “No, we haven't been that for a number of years, thank you very much.” B Biggs: Yes, yes, yes. (laughs). Downie: But you know, if you're not right there in the thick of it, you didn’t realize-B BIggs: It was 1989 when I think, I mean, that's a date that really sticks out, I had been there three years. And 1989 was when we were signed-Downie: When Bill Stacy came in and-B Biggs: Right. Downie: Brought in the founding faculty and-B Biggs: Right. And that's-- (overlapping dialogue) Downie: --things started really changing. B Biggs: Have you gotten all the founding faculty? I'm assuming you've-Downie: Marion got oral histories from-B Biggs: Oh, good. Downie: --I think everybody, and it would be nice to go back to some of them and, get a looking back now, what you saw then versus what you're, what you’ve-B Biggs: In retrospect. (overlapping dialogue) What, yeah. Downie: In retrospect view of that, that could be extremely interesting. But so, you were there to move into the permanent campus on Twin Oaks Valley Road. And that was while I was not on campus. That was during my period of exile, as I call it, after I got my master's. And I went down to United States International University. So that's, there's a chunk of campus history that I didn't personally experience-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: How long were you-Downie: I was there eighteen months. B Biggs: At, at USIU. Downie: Yeah. B Biggs: Okay, yeah. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: And so, and of course-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: I forgot that. Downie: --being that the position I was in as a staff person when I left, I was not involved in planning or any of that sort of thing. (Bonnie affirms), I'm sure you were, I know Marion certainly was. Way-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: Oh yeah. Way deep. (overlapping dialogue) Downie: Way, deep, deep, deep into it. But you certainly had a lot of input as well. So, what do you remember about running up to moving onto the permanent campus at Twin Oaks Valley (Road) and then the move? Other than we had to borrow book carts from everybody, every library in the county. B Biggs: Yes. I remember that. Of course, Marion was much more in charge of that and involved. I think I was doing more hands-on and working with a few staff. We had to fill those book carts and get things moved into the library. I will say a major memory of that was that we were not invited to the groundbreaking. I just have to go on record to say that. And there were many people who had been doing that kind of work, high level work. You know, like Marion, she was there. But those of us who helped build the foundation of that university--San Diego State North County--were not invited to the groundbreaking. So that, that's something that's one of the few bitter kind of, “Really?” (Downie affirms) Kind of thing. Maybe Dick was, yeah, I'm sure he went because he had transitioned-G Biggs: There's a picture, there's of all the shovel people-B Biggs: All the shovels. No (San Diego State) North County people. So that was interesting. (Downie affirms) And it is kind of a blur. I mean, all of the nuts and bolts and physical work. I just remember it being a lot of physical hard work, getting--Marion probably was up here (referring to planning and coordination of the campus move) more than, you know, the moving of the materials. And-G Biggs: They got somebody local that had a moving company to help move the collection, box them up-B Biggs: And I, I think Jim Hanson may have helped. G Biggs: Jim Hanson was on there, but I forget who it was that had trucks. He had a moving company, right? B Biggs: I don't remember that. Downie: Well, they were, they were flatbed trucks with board sides, and we had all those book trucks. And the day we moved the collection, it was raining. So we had to wrap all the book trucks in plastic-B Biggs: I remember that now. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: To move them into Craven Hall, which is now the Administration Building. B Biggs: Right. Downie: And then of course, the ceiling was leaking, even though the books were on the fourth floor, we didn't have our shelving yet. So, the books were sitting on the floor. (laughs) B Biggs: You have more memories of that-G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: --than I do. That's interesting. I, yeah. Downie: Well, again, you had other responsibilities that you were running the arts programs and, (Bonnie affirms) you know, everything. And (overlapping dialogue) areas of responsibility. B Biggs: And all the Indian stuff had started by then too because, you know Whitehorse, the way it started was David Whitehorse (School of Education Emeritus faculty) walked into my office. He was standing as State North County faculty and said, “The plan of cooperation between the county library system and the tribes is dissolving, they’re--what can you do about it?” Like, “How do I (Biggs) know what to do about it?” (Downie laughs). So, I had started going out and working with the tribes at that point. We had American Indian Storytellings-G Biggs: Storytelling. B Biggs: --we had the American Indian culture--we couldn't call it a powow--culture fair, inside and over at the Red Barn (Williams Barn, San Marcos, California). So I was kind of doing a lot of that stuff at the same time. That's why I don't have really clear memories of the actual movement of the books. But-G Biggs: That’s where you met Uncle Henry (Rodriguez; Native American water rights activist; instrumental in preserving indigenous California culture) was at the, at the storytellings. B Biggs: Yeah. He was, yes. G Biggs: I see that down there, yeah. Downie: So that really kind of segues beautifully into the next session, which is your work with the local tribes, the California tribal libraries. So, how did you actually become interested in this particular part of our population? B Biggs: Yeah. Well, David Whitehorse told me I had to (combined laughter). I mean, when he said, when I looked at the plan of cooperation it was a plan, very loose plan that the San Diego County Library system, which is thirty-three branches from Otay Mesa to Fallbrook. And the system I came from, they had a plan of cooperation. It just meant that they would do some interlibrary loan and maybe occasionally go out and help, you know, people with collection development. But it all of a sudden was dissolving. And so, I'm trying to think of the timing. It Transcribed by Aaron 8 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 was at a time, one of those times when the budget was going to hell in California. So, they were pulling funding back and staffing ability to go out and even do the little bit that they were doing. So, David wanted to know what I was gonna do about it. So, I did start going out to some of the local libraries: Pala, Rincon, Pauma, La Jolla, San Pasquale, just the local, the most local (to North County San Diego), not south. There were no casinos for many years until after I started working with them (California tribal libraries). So, it was more just about getting an assessment of who had what. Some of them had combination museums and libraries, which is not uncommon on most tribal land. So, I just started developing. I would say, and I tell people this, it took seven years to get totally trusted and implanted into the culture. You don't just go out and say, “Hi, I'm a white librarian, I'm gonna help you out.” (Laughs) It really did take years and years and years. But doing things like “Prez to the Rez,” taking the (university) presidents out there developing tribal communities, task forces, I'm getting ahead of myself, but that, it was that kind of stuff that gained the trust of the tribal communities. And the big part of that, ultimately, first it was, do something because the library system is abandoning them. But the more important thing was we need to get these Indian students to the university to trust coming to a university. Lots of history on that, you know, with what we did to native people in boarding schools. So, it really did take a long time to gain the trust, and the numbers show now that our native population at the university is one of the highest, last I looked, in all the CSUs (California State Universities). So, and we were the first to have a tribal liaison. And it was Tish (Tishmall Turner). No, it wasn’t (laughs). You saw that. That was a-Downie: Well, this is a problem with a lot of the firsts that we've done on the campus is nobody stopped to think, this is the first we need, we need to record this somewhere. And responsibilities have moved from department to department. From unit to unit. Across. And then we've had changes in presidents, changes in everything. B Biggs: Deans and-Downie: So after a while, yes, it gets lost. B Biggs: That's why archives are so, I mean seriously, it's so important, especially with a university this young. You got, I'm glad Jen (Fabbi) is moving there (to CSUSM’s Special Collections). I mean, you need all the help you can get, and you've got an opportunity before it gets too far down the road to capture all this amazing history. Downie: Cause we've already lost some very key players. That, you know, you can't go and interview them now. Unfortunately. B Biggs: No. No, I know. Downie: So, yeah. So it's become, becoming more critical all the time. B Biggs: Yeah. Did somebody, I'm sure they did. They must have interviewed Dick Rush at some point. So-Downie: Nobody's interviewed Dick Rush yet. Transcribed by Aaron 9 Williams 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: Wow. Downie: Yeah. No, we, we have his papers. I mean, he doc-B Biggs: He did. That's right. Downie: We have more paper from Dick Rush in boxes in Special Collections than from anybody else. G Biggs: Do you (Bonnie) still have your yellow legal pad thing where Dick had (overlapping dialogue) bullets for what, what he wanted you to do? Handwritten. B Biggs: We’ll have to find that. But, you know, we're gonna go up mid-April, just for a twonight trip for our anniversary, our fortieth anniversary. And we're gonna see Dick probably, we'll probably stop in Camarillo (city in California). And should I ask him if he is interested in being interviewed? Downie: Yeah, please. B Biggs: Okay. That would, wow. I mean, because beyond those boxes, this is somebody-Downie: Oh, there's so much more. B Biggs: Somebody who really, really knows the story. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, because he was there from ground zero, basically. B Biggs: He was a British literature professor at (Downie laughs) San Diego State. Downie: Those Brit Lit people, I tell you. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Downie: So I know that you have mentioned to me over time that you went, you know, when you were first working with the tribal libraries, that you would go to tribal councils and you would just sit there and just listen. (Bonnie affirms) And, you know, speak when you were spoken to or invited to speak, things like that. But where did you meet Uncle Henry (Rodriguez)? B Biggs: I think at a powwow (a social gathering celebrating Indigenous American culture). G Biggs: Or a, well, there's a picture of him at the Red Barn with Lee Dixon (Pauma Band of Mission Indians). AndB Biggs: So it would've been the American Indian-G Biggs: Find that picture-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: --culture fair, we couldn't have powwows yet. And David (Whitehorse) helped organize those. So that was when we were still San Diego State North County. And he (Rodriguez) was always invited as an elder to give the blessing. And he did that for us until the day he died. But commencements and powwows, so met him there. I'm trying to think how I got close to him. Just got close to him. Downie: He was a very astute man. (Bonnie affirms) He probably saw your empathy and connection. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And he knew I was working with the tribal libraries. I'd come, I'd go to the La Jolla Reservation, which is way up Palomar Mountain. They had like a room with- so many of these libraries all around the country, really. Or a couple of shelves of books. One of them at Manzanita (Reservation of the Manzanita Band of the Kumeyaay Nation), I think was a bookshelf in a fire department. That was their library, you know, and people took me in and said, “Here's our library.” And yeah. So, Henry (Rodriguez) knew I was doing that work, and yeah. He knew I--to say in Luiseño, I had a good heart, I guess is. Downie: Okay. And you've already talked about bringing the powwow to campus, but it was the American Cultural Fair. Before the American Indian Cultural Fair. Before it was actually a powwow. What were the mechanisms by where it could become a powwow? B Biggs: Yeah. It had to be, of course outside, and with a number of different things, different dancers, different singers. Bird songs are important for local culture. So it, you saw a couple of them, I'm sure. It's huge. It's not something that you hold inside. So the parameters are really about dancers and music and a processional. So Henry (Rodriguez) would often, with me and Whitehorse, lead the procession. There's a blessing of the field. So, probably an Indian person could tell you more what the specifics were you, you would have a--what was Randy Edmonds (American Indian Tribal Leader)? Barry, what was Randy Edmonds? G Biggs: Randy Edmonds was the MC. B Biggs: He was the master of ceremony. So, soDownie: Randy’s last name? B Biggs: Randy Edmonds. Downie: Edmonds. B Biggs: And he's still alive. I just heard something about him the other day. So, there were just a whole bunch of things. The idea of the American Indian Culture Fair was to at least get people used to it. So there would be a prayer and a blessing at a table. Got pictures of that stuff going with Henry. But, and I think they could do like a few small bird songs and maybe a little, you know, dances. But, they would have booths. And it was just a mini powwow is the best way to describe it. Powwow didn't happen till we moved to the campus. And we had that lower field, which I think is soccer now. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 11 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: It's used a lot for soccer, but I think it could be used for other sports as well. Yeah, it's right down there at the, on the corner of the entrance on Twin Oak Valley Road. B Biggs: Right. We always drive by when I'm on campus, “There's the powwow field.” That was huge. And I don't know if you know there's an Indian store over here (referencing a picture). They just closed or they're moving this. Downie: Oh, they closed. B Biggs: Yeah, but we were in there and recently just to help with any, you know, buying things. And the guy said, I said, “Do you remember me? I,” and he goes, “Oh yeah. Was (referring to the CSUSM American Indian Cultural Fair) the best organized powwow ever.” Because they went to all the tribes. Downie: Oh, I'm sure they did. B Biggs: I said, “It's because a librarian organized it.” (laughter; overlapping dialogue) Librarians-Downie( Exactly. You put a librarian on it, it's gonna be organized. B Biggs: I know. He was. Yeah. So, they were always there and selling things. What were you trying toG Biggs: I was trying to find that picture of the lineup. B Biggs: The perfect processional, yeah. G Biggs: Lee Dixon, who's passed away. Jane Dumas. David Whitehorse, Uncle Henry. You (Bonnie Biggs) and somebody else, they're all lined up. But that was in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Downie: We have a few pictures of the Cultural Fair, what was going on in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: And-G Biggs: Yeah, Randy Edmonds charged me with carrying Carol Bonomo (CSUSM Administrator Emeritus) out of the arena. They had just smudged blessed the arena, and you weren't, you weren't to enter the arena after that. And Carol comes across there and Randy goes, “Go get her and get her out of there.” So, I had to pick up Carol and-B Biggs: Small, she's small. (overlapping dialogue; laughter) G Biggs: I know. And carry her out the arena, kicking and screaming. She tells that story all the time. Transcribed by Aaron 12 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: All the time. Yeah. She loves that story. G Biggs: And I said, “It's not me! I was told to do this, so I do this.” B Biggs: (laughs) It was, yeah. G Biggs: But there's certain protocols for the, like that. You don't enter the arena after it's been blessed and stuff like that. B Biggs: And I don't, I can't even remember how many years it went on, but after many years I think I was starting to think about retirement, but the students took over. Downie: Yeah, the American Indian Student Alliance. B Biggs: And it didn’t-Downie: They did it, I think, for two years. And then being that the student population changes, you don't have the continuity that you have-B Biggs: Exactly. Downie: --of actual employed staff and faculty to lead something. I mean, I've seen that happen so many times with the student organizations. They'll be there for a year or so, and then the person who was excited and found it, graduates. Good for them. Yes. But then they haven't developed a line of succession either. (Bonnie affirms) And then something else will pop up. But-B Biggs: Yeah, that was unfortunate. And people were sad about it. And I think right after that, either I was going up for tenure--that's what it was, Whitehorse and I finally said, “You know, we better do this tenure thing.” And so suddenly I started publishing, you know, in a flying hurry. I'd done some, and then that's what it was. Yeah, we both had to step down. Downie: Tenure becomes quite the time suck. B Biggs: I'll never forget Dick (Rush) telling me, because I was just being a librarian, I didn't understand the whole, again because I wasn't really part of yet of the faculty. Downie: Well, we didn't have a faculty mentorship program that we do now. There was really, you were just doing what had to be done. And hopefully somebody told you. B Biggs: All of sudden, oh, you're supposed to write about this. Okay. And that was another thing, is doing all of the publications I did, all had to do with tribal libraries. You have to be careful, you know, and respectful, and vet things. And so that was, that sort of added to the lengths of time to get things done. Downie: And so, as part of your scholarly work of course, was the California Tribal Library Survey, which that was, was on a sabbatical, right? Transcribed by Aaron 13 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: You know, the, the strange thing was the first sabbatical was Africa, right after I got tenure. And then the State Library of California paid my--paid the university, gave Marion money to cover me while I did that survey. The second actual one was going around and doing the New Mexico Pueblos. So that was my sabbatical. The second one. Yeah, the first one was right, you know right after you get tenure, you get a sabbatical. That was Africa. And-Downie: Well, now you can apply for a sabbatical and hope you get one. (laughs) B Biggs: Hope you get one. Exactly. And the, and the second one, and I'm trying to remember how long afterwards that was. G Biggs: What, Africa? Downie: It's usually (overlapping dialogue) every six years-B Biggs: Yeah, something like that. Yeah. And then, but the, the census and needs assessment for the State Library of California was just a thing that they asked me to do because I'd become involved in, so that took us all the way up to a sheet. Yeah. So-Downie: And that was 2001, 2002, as it says on the spine, a very fat binder. (laughter) B Biggs: Yes. Of a very fat binder. And he (Gunnar) was on that one. I have no sense of direction. So, Gunnar drove me. Not only there, because a lot of the you know, reservations are really way out there and not very well signed. You see the signages, “Go three rocks up past the, you know, the oak tree and turn left.” Same thing with going around to the Pueblos in New Mexico. And I went on that trip because Lotsee Patterson (librarian and founder of the American Indian Library Association), my mentor, said that the best tribal library system in the country was within the pueblos of New Mexico (referring to the physical establishments of the Pueblo peoples). And that's because she helped guide them along for decades. And it was an amazing trip. Downie: And how did you meet Lotsee? B Biggs: At an AL- AILA, American Indian Library Association meeting. And we rode in a taxi somewhere, and I remember-G Biggs: Chicago. B Biggs: --remember thinking, “Oh my God, I'm in a taxi with Lotsee Paterson.” (laughter) And she was the most likable, lovable, again, we talked to her just a few weeks ago. She got her materials to Sean (Visintainer; Head of CSUSM Special Collections) for, yeah. But she's the one, I mean, everything really centers around her. And we just became friends and I guess kind of a, she was kind of a mentor and a not in a real strict way but she, just by way of being around her she was mentoring me. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 14 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Well, I think that's a very much cultural way is just simply organically as it happens, you pass your knowledge onto someone else rather than the formal academic environment that you know, we commonly think of. G Biggs: She would take the students on a summer trip to the pueblos. And we would, we tagged along on one of those. So, in desert summer in New Mexico with our dog in the car and everything, but we would go to library to library, and she (Patterson) would know everybody. Down to the tribal policeman that tried to throw us out once, you know. “How's your cousin doing?” And he'd look at her and he'd go, “Oh my goodness, go ahead.” You know. (laughter) But without those kind of inroads, you don't just walk into a-B Biggs: And she helped me get entre into all of the, all of the Pueblos who are just phenomenal people. Yeah. Downie: Lots of, lots of accomplishments there. So that will bring us onto your other career accomplishments. On campus, I know that you were the first librarian faculty to serve as the Academic Senate chair, which was a pretty big deal because there weren't too many of us librarians (Bonnie affirms). G Biggs: --weren’t Chair though. Downie: Number one (laughs). B Biggs: Right. There weren't, and, but the deal was, this is very strange, and I have to find it. I'd been senate vice chair for maybe four years, and I think by the time Bud Morris (Dr. G.H. “Bud” Morris; professor of communications and former Academic Senate chair) was ready to step down, I said, “Okay, I will go ahead and do this.” But I stepped out. I didn't, I ended up not serving as chair. And it was because I was getting ready to retire. I think that would've been 2004. And Karen (Haynes; President of CSUSM 2004 to 2019) had just said to me, “Will you be tribal liaison?” So, I ended up not serving. I think I was the only person who was voted, and also the only person who ever said, “I'm not gonna do it.” And that was, that was a big stink. And even Alex Gonzalez (former CSUSM President 1997-2003) was pissed at me (Gunnar laughs). I hated--didn't care for him. (laughs) But no so I didn't, but I served certainly for, I don't know, fifteen years on the executive committee and then four years as vice chair. Ick. Ick. Downie: That was certainly long enough. But, that's what people had to do. I mean, there weren't that many people to serve in positions. Patty Seleski (CSUSM Professor Emerita) was, what, History Department chair for twelve years? (Bonnie affirms) Because she just said, “I'll take it on, because the junior faculty need to be able to work and get their tenure.” (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: And do their research, and yeah. Exactly. Downie: So, we made sacrifices in some ways. B Biggs: We just talked to Pat (Seleski) last week when we went down. She's almost blind now, but she said that she was senate chair for three years straight. I don't think we've had anyone do that many years straight. Have we? Transcribed by Aaron 15 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Somebody recently did do I think two terms. B Biggs: Okay. Downie: But that was when it was one-year terms. Now it's become a two-year term. B Biggs: Has it? Okay. Downie: Glen Brodowsky (CSUSM Marketing Professor) is chair right now. B Biggs: Glen is, and he was always on (academic) senate with me. (overlapping dialogue) I love Glen. Downie: So, but any other firsts that you did? I mean, you certainly started the Arts and Lectures program. You certainly brought, you know, the tribal collaboration and partnerships to campus. But what, what other sorts of things? B Biggs: Firsts? G Biggs: Tribal liaison. Tribal Liaison. B Biggs: Oh, the tribal liaison I think is really important because, there were none anywhere. And so, establishing those relationships in the tribal communities task force, sort of paved the road. You read that history that I corrected that went to Patricia, Patricia (Prado)-Olmos. So, I think that that's probably, if I were to say the one thing I was most proud of, is that we established a position on campus that was about serving native communities. And then now that, I understand that they've got a couple in other CSUs, they have something. Maybe not the exact title at SDSU. And then the UCs (Universities of California) got a couple now. But we didn't have, there wasn't anyone. And yeah, I didn't like the fact that it was forgotten that there was someone who was before Tishmall. But getting Tishmall there as a local Luiseño tribal member was so important. Getting Joely Proudfit (Department Chair and Professor, American Indian Studies Department) to come to campus was, that was amazing. You know we lured her away from CSU San Bernadino, and to get a couple of local tribal people, really what that does is it opens the door for native students. I mean, we started that by having our tribal community task force. We go out to the rez, “Prez to the Rez”. We do things out there to bring people in. Untrusting native students and families started to see that we were a safe place for them to come. But the tribal liaison position, probably I would say, I would think the most important thing that I accomplished. Downie: Would you say, if I remember correctly, San Diego County has more tribes than any other county in California? B Biggs: Federally recognized. Yeah. Downie: Federally recognized. Okay. Would you say that was maybe one of the reasons that we could be the first in that? Because-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 16 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: I would think so. Downie: --there was just a larger population to work with. B Biggs: We had a larger population, and we had, we were young enough. Karen Haynes was one hundred percent behind it. I was on her search committee, and I got to ask one question, each of the faculty members (got to ask one question). And mine was, “We have nineteen federally recognized tribes in the county of San Diego. What do you think you would like to do, if you became president, about that?” And she said, “First of all, I would talk to people who know about it, and know what the needs are, and want to meet with the native people.” And I was like, “You're hired.” Downie: Ding, ding, ding, ding. (laughter) B Biggs: You're hired. So it was really having a leader on campus who was one hundred percent behind doing this work. And she came to a number of our, before we had NAC (Native Advisory Council), came to a lot of our tribal communities task force meetings, just to hear--that was getting people from business, you know, you think it's- Who, Raj (Dr. Rajnandini, CSUSM Professor of Management)? Is Raj still there? Downie: I believe so, yeah. B Biggs: And Glen Brodowsky. Folks that you wouldn't think would have anything to do with this stuff all had input and all had ways to take their resources and their knowledge base out to the reservation. Or their advice to the reservation to help-Downie: And NAC is Native Advisory Council? B Biggs: Yeah. And that, that evolved. You know, so Wendy Schlater (member of the La Jolla Band of Luiseño, elected vice chairwoman of that tribe in 2019) from La Jolla rez, Henry’s rez, and I went to President Hayes and said, “We need-“ you know, there was at the time what they call Latin- Latino Faculty and Staff-G Biggs: LAFSB Biggs: LAFS. G Biggs: Latin American Faculty and Staff. B Biggs: And then they had just started an African American council. So, I thought, you know, we should--especially because we have so many tribes in the area, and it was time. And they're still meeting. I'm not going anymore. But, but it's wonderful that, that they are meeting and that, and I believe President Neufeldt (CSUSM President Ellen J. Neufeldt, appointed in 2019) is behind everything I've worked with her on having to do with the tribes. She's very-Downie: It dovetails nicely with her social mobility focus. B Biggs: Right. It does. Yeah. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 17 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Okay. So-B Biggs: Oh, another first on campus was bringing therapy dogs. Downie: Okay, well-G Biggs: It's down here. B Biggs: Oh, is it on here? (laughs) G Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) I see it right at the bottom there. B Biggs: Oh, is it really? G Biggs: Right at the bottom. Downie: But no, that's I think perfectly. That's, that's a wonderful first. Yeah. I think that's been done, you know, like in the county libraries of the public libraries, there's been the reading to dogs. So, it's not like it was completely foreign to people that dogs could be used in a very positive way. Other than just simply assistance animals. And there's nothing simple about that. But you know, the therapy dogs and the comfort or support dogs and things like that. I haven't seen a support alligator on campus yet, thankfully. Or a support snake. Any, any kind of reptile. Haven't seen those yet. But it does seem like it's being a more acceptable thing, but just the bringing them on right at finals time. (Bonnie affirms) To give students another form of release is, it's obviously quite popular. I walk out to see you and, you know, there are just students everywhere, you know, coming by, you know? Kids that didn't know about it are coming by and just, “Oh, well I gotta stop and touch a puppy.” B Biggs: And faculty and staff. And administrators-G Biggs: Presidents. Downie: Yes. We all need it. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Librarians. Yeah. Downie: Okay. So we can move on to some of your other career accomplishments beyond the firsts. You did do a sabbatical in Ghana, and wasn't that one of the first internationally, international-B Biggs: Might have been. I don't know who else had gone-Downie: --sabbaticals. I don't have a list of who's done a sabbatical when and where they went, but it doesn't seem like we had too many faculty-B Biggs: Not that many of them-Downie: --that were internationally focused the way you were on this. Transcribed by Aaron 18 Williams 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: And there was somehow money. It was obviously Komla Amoaku (Dr. W. Komla Amoaku, former Director of Visual and Performing Arts at CSUSM) who got me interested because they do have what I would call tribal libraries, or libraries formed by indigenous people in Ghana. And so, he got money through the-G Biggs: United States (overlapping dialogue) Information, USIA. B Biggs: So, so a little bit of money to help fund that. We of course got some money from the university I guess, to go, but we ended up paying your (Gunnar’s) way. G Biggs: Yeah. Thanks. B Biggs: For everything. And we stayed at a woman's home, auntie-G Biggs: Jane Korontang. B Biggs: Korontang-G Biggs: On Labadi Beach on the Gulf of Guinea. B Biggs: So Komla-Downie: I may have to ask for spelling. (laughter) B Biggs: Komla got us connected everywhere. And we had a--but it, but again, it was to go around and talk with people in libraries that again, were kind of like the tribal libraries here. Some pretty well formed, some others, very slim, I would say. But the thing about Ghana was Komla was very involved in the music world there. He was the director-G Biggs: Director. B Biggs: Of the national Symphony-G Biggs: Theater. B Biggs: Symphony or Orchestra? G Biggs: National Theater of Ghana. B Biggs: National Theater of Ghana-G Biggs: Which was an umbrella organization for all the arts-B Biggs: For all the arts-G Biggs: Music, theater, et. cetera-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 19 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: So he ended up getting this one. It was like my sabbatical. And he (Gunnar) was the star. (laughs) G Biggs: No. No. B Biggs: He had, he had you conduct the-G Biggs: Well, I, we went to hear a concert of the National Symphony of Ghana which was, it's a long story, so I won't go into it now, but it was really a treat. And the next day, Komla said, “Would you go to their rehearsal and talk to them about their performance?” So I did. And it was amazing, you know, and they had me conduct a piece during the rehearsal. But they were using some like, traditional African instruments in a symphony orchestra. That was just ridiculous. I mean, it was so good. And they--I found out that they didn't have strings for the--they didn't have a, they would break a string and they would find some way to make a string. Downie: Oh, wow. G Biggs: So when I got back, what I did is I asked all my symphony friends, I said, “If you have old sets of strings, tuners, anything that would be violin, viola, cello, or bass, give them to me. I'll get them to Ghana.” So, I sent a whole care package. They couldn't tune up. They didn't have a piano that was in tune, so I sent them tuners and things like that. But-B Biggs: And the other, there are a lot of stories, but the other thing about him is we went to a couple of jazz clubs. G Biggs: Which we didn't know existed in the first place-B Biggs: In the first place. G Biggs: --there were jazz clubs in Accra (capital of Ghana), the main-B Biggs: But we walked in and Komla introduced him (Gunnar) as this big jazz star. And he ended up showing the African musicians how to play jazz, which is some funny stuff. I mean, jazz originated in Africa. And the rhythmic foundations of jazz-G Biggs: Well, the head of USIS, United States Information Service, Nick Robertson, who lived in Ojai (California). Anyway, he was a jazz vibraphone player. He played vibes. And he had gotten together, we got some music sent over. Some musicians in Accra, to form a band, at the place called The Bassline. B Biggs: As in bass line. G Biggs: It was amazing, you know? And so I sat in and then, then he said, “We're gonna close the club tomorrow, and you're gonna do a clinic.” I said, “Okay!” (laughter) And then here, and I felt so outta place, because here I am trying to show them the idiom of American jazz, which wouldn't exist were it not for West African influences, ‘cause they had a little couple of pieces of the puzzle rearranged, kind of, and it turned-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 20 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: By the end of the night, they were-G Biggs: By the end of the night, they-B Biggs: They totally had it. G Biggs: They got it immediately. And so I got to-Downie: Well, they had the foundation. G Biggs: Yeah. So I got to sit in every-Downie: It morphed into something different-Downie: So I got to sit in a bunch and play. B Biggs: And then Komla took them out in the country and played with a whole bunch of African drummers, and Gunnar sitting there trying to do the, like the apentemma drum. And this little seven year-Downie: Well, I remember Gunnar playing in Komla’s-B Biggs: Yes, yes-Downie: Classes and things. You know, the performances that-B Biggs: That's right. Downie: What was the name of the-B Biggs: Sankofa? (Dr. Amoaku’s Artists in Residence group, which CSUSM granted a stipend to support the university mission of diversity through arts.) G Biggs: Sankofa. Downie: Sankofa. That you would do-G Biggs: Well, I knew enough to be dangerous (laughter). But when he took us to his home in Ho (Ghana), which was way up in the northern Volta region, they had these people waiting for us when we drove in, it was like midnight. And all the kids were gonna dance and drum for us. And they asked me to sit in again. So I'm playing this one part, and it's like, I remember this eight-year-old little boy going, “Yes, no, no, no, no. Yes. That's it. No, no, no.” (laughter). So I'm being totally humbled to the roots. B Biggs: By an 8-year-old. (laughter) G Biggs: But I remember everything he told me. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 21 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: Everything, yeah G Biggs: I mean, so-B Biggs: So, anyway, it was my sabbatical. But he was the superstar. G Biggs: No, I didn't get on national radio. B Biggs: I got on national radio but what, but they would not let him come in. They actually had people with guns-G Biggs: Fifty caliber gunmen placements. B Biggs: Over I guess, you know in, for national radio in a country that, I mean, there really weren't bad things going on-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Well, if there, if there's a coup, the first thing-B Biggs: They go-G Biggs: --people do is they take over the national communicate television and radio. Downie: Oh, true. Yeah. G Biggs: So they had these guys with helmets and fifty caliber machine guns. And you were, if you weren't on the list, they'd point the gun at you to keep walking. B Biggs: Gunnar was like, “I think I'll wait in the car for you.” G Biggs: I moved back to the, yeah-B Biggs: It was just a quick interview. But about-G Biggs: It was a good interview! B Biggs: --tribal. And it was a, it was nice in the interview to be able to talk about some of the similarities between the indigenous library, libraries in Ghana and the tribal libraries here in the country. So it was-G Biggs: You did that at the University of Ghana too, remember? You went in there and you talked with them? B Biggs: I think so. G Biggs: Yeah. I was in the car waiting again. (laughter) B Biggs: You were probably, yeah. Yeah. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 22 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 G Biggs: But you talked to people at the university. B Biggs: And I may have at the university of--where did we go? British Columbia (Canada), I think I talked about, had an opportunity to, one of the many you know talks was to talk about that there are indigenous libraries in Africa as well. So, it was fun. What else? But yeah, his story, I mean, he was “Mr. Superstar” there. Yeah, you were. Yep. Downie: Okay. So well, we'll move on out of Africa and come back to the states here. (laughter) Talk about anything, anything you did at the CSU level rather than campus level. Anything that you did? B Biggs: Lots of talks. I'm trying to think. I actually got involved in development at one point. Fundraising. Downie: I kind of remember that. You were doing some fundraising. B Biggs: And there was a group that was formed out of San Luis Obispo, on librarians who were involved in development. I'm trying to make, remember the name of that group? Do you remember that? G Biggs: No. What about the California State Library? Recognizing. B Biggs: Oh, yeah. I mean, but that's not the CSU. G Biggs: No, but under this career accomplishment thing. B Biggs: Yeah, well that was a big one. Was the, you know, the assessment thing. That came out of having a relationship with a woman I met through AILA (American Indian Library Association), American Indian. She went on to become the state tribal library coordinator. Susan Hanks, I don't know if you remember Susan's name. Downie: That name sounds vaguely familiar-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Which didn't exist before you. B Biggs: Yeah, she, well, yeah. G Biggs: Sorry. B Biggs: National. ALA (American Library Association). I actually went from being involved with ALA with more, much more with AILA (American Indian Library Association). I would go to ALA meetings. But it was all about, you know, going to the AILA meetings. Downie: But you were the first non-Indian president-B Biggs: President, of AILA. Yeah. And that's Lotsee’s (referring to Patterson) fault. She pushed me down that road. (laughter) Transcribed by Aaron Williams 23 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 G Biggs: And you got an award for a Librarian of the Year for-B Biggs: Yeah, it was-G Biggs: What was that award? B Biggs: I don't know. The plaque is in there. Downie: I remember typing up some of the newsletters for AILA. Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: I was your support person with Arts and Lectures. B Biggs: That's right. Right. It, I think they still have the group, and I wanna think it's Librarians of Color, which I'm not that colorful. I am part Cherokee, but I don't, I don't talk about that to, what's it called? Joint Conference Librarians of Color Distinguished Service Award. Yeah. Oh, that was a, what was the one we did the talk at? In the--people from--that were the Whakatau (pronounced with a “ph” sound). G Biggs: Whakahau. B Biggs: That was their actual name. G Biggs: They were Māori. B Biggs: Māori. G Biggs: Māori. B Biggs: And, and it wasG Biggs: New Zealand. B Biggs: Yeah. Indigenous First Peoples from all over the world. And that was, that was through AILA, my part was through AILA, but it was with International Indigenous Librarians (Forum, advocacy group for indigenous peoples in library systems). Yeah. Downie: Your influence-B Biggs: This is bringing back weird memories, God. That's where they put him (Gunnar) in charge of helping. And he had like these five Indian women that were telling him what to do and how to do it. And he was like, “Whatever you say.” Downie: Whatever you want. (laughter) B Biggs: Palomar Library Association. Wow. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 24 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Because I know you were, you would've been involved early on. B Biggs: Way early on. Yeah. Yeah. You were too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, I edited the newsletter for ten years. B Biggs: Right, right. Downie: But that was also what opened my contacts to where when I first, when I finished my master's, Connie Constantino (former Library Director, United States International University) reached out to me. And I knew her through Palomar Library Association. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. So do they still exist? Downie: No. It became San Diego Region Library Association. And then a couple years later it folded. There, just, I think there were too many divergent interests going on. And again, it's kind of like students you know, when they graduate out, you know, you gotta have at least one driving force. And I think we came to a period where it just wasn't a driving force anymore. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Not sure how far and deep I was involved with-Downie: I know (overlapping dialogue) I've seen some photographs of you at events. B Biggs: At events, yeah. Downie: Because I just saw Alice Rigg (former president of the Palomar Library Association)-B Biggs: Wow. Downie: About a month ago. B Biggs: Carolyn's in touch with her. Downie: Yeah. Carolyn (Funes) got in touch with me to get in touch with Alice. And Alice is moving, downsizing and moving in with her son, and so she found a couple of old photograph binders of early-B Biggs: Wow. And she was pretty involved, right? (Downie affirms) I mean, she was, yeah. Yeah. Downie: It seemed like the public librarians were much more involved in Palomar Library Association than the academics were. I think because we probably just, we were also having-B Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) Had all these other--yeah. Downie: --to publish and research and everything else, where the public librarians, this was a way for them to see each other and be able to congregate. Cause a lot of them couldn't go to ALA and stuff like that. There just wasn't any funding for the public librarians. Transcribed by Aaron 25 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: I hadn't thought about Connie Constantino in forever-G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Downie: But yeah. Were you there when they started the scholarship? Okay. B Biggs: I don't think so. Downie: Okay, because I know they had this scholarship. B Biggs: But I remember someone getting it. Yeah. I'm trying to think who. Downie: Cause I, I haven't been able to track down the memories of how the scholarship got started. B Biggs: Does Alice know? Have you talked to her or? Downie: She wasn't feeling too terribly well that day, so-B Biggs: Okay. Downie: --no, I didn't really push her for a lot of stuff, but yeah. I may reach out to her again. So yeah, bringing up those old memories. (laughs) B Biggs: I mean, PLA (Palomar Library Association), I hadn't thought about that in forever. Well, PLA is also Public Library Association. (Downie affirms) But I mean, but the Palomar-Downie: But Palomar. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Downie: But well, anyway, let's move on to your post-retirement work, because you certainly haven't rested on your laurels, so to speak. You've continued a lot of your initiatives and then you've also gone and done Love on a Leash (nonprofit organization providing pet therapy). But, I know that your liaison work, a lot of it was after you retired from the library. B Biggs: Right. So, Karen Haynes asked me to serve as tribal liaison. She was upset I was retiring as soon as I did. I think I was only sixty. G Biggs: You did it. You bought time. So it was early sixty. B Biggs: I bought time. So, so I was young, but I was ready. I mean, putting in twenty-two years at that, you know, place that the university was at was like putting in forty-four (laughs) in terms of-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 26 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: It was a lot of work. B Biggs: --just everything starting from scratch. So, I was ready to retire. She (Haynes) asked me if I would stay on and do, and I got to just pick my hours work from home. I was on the rez ninety percent of the time. But that's when the, the community task force was really underway. And that's when we started NAC. And I stayed on NAC until just this year. So, I retired in 2007 totally, like stopped being tribal liaison in 2007. Retired as faculty in 2004. I am still, I guess, on the California Indian Sovereignty--Culture and Sovereignty Center (CICSC; founded in 2009). I keep trying not to be, but I'm on. And so the things I continue to stay involved with, I'm trying to help this new Mejaumi (Franco-Rosales) who is replacing Tish(mall Turner) or filling some kind of tribal projects role until they find a tribal liaison. So I'm doing that. The big work now is working with Donna (Uchimura), Uncle Henry's daughter, to get Uncle Henry's archives digitized and to make sure that the family has a great deal of input and oversight. And so that one, that one's happening right now. I understand that Donna has let Joely (Proudfit) know who she wants to be on this committee. When Joely said she wanted to have a committee in this meeting with Donna, my first thought was, “You know what committee means to us.” (laughs) I thought, “Oh my gosh.” So, walking across the bridge with Donna, I said, “You know, you involve family to the extent that you want them.” And so (noise of a phone chime) she's done that. And Sean, she wants Sean (Visintainer). And she knows I'm trying to take a step back, but it's the one thing I can't not do. I just can't, for Henry's sake, I can't abandon the family until that’s done. Downie: Well, that and all parties trust you. You know, and you have such a long-established history of doing what's right and-B Biggs: Yeah, there is trust. Downie: --I don’t think everybody else see their--see the path forward. It's very important. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And I stay in touch. You know, we just visited Pala (reservation) a couple weeks ago. Walked in and there's Chairman (Robert) Smith sitting there, but these are, these are people now who are Casino rich. And you know, so it's a whole different world, but they're just still folks who remember Gunnar and I putting books on a cart and running it over from a little trailer into the new building. So, we still have a relationship with a lot of those libraries. Rincon (California), we recently went out and gave them materials on Luiseño songs. G Biggs: Do you hear Zuni? (family dog) B Biggs: Is she in her dream? G Biggs: She's chirping. (laughs) B Biggs: She's having a dream. (laughs) Downie: And you know, because I worked under you as support staff for what was supposed to be a seven-month appointment, if I remember correctly-B Biggs: Yes. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 27 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Well it turned into four years! B Biggs: I know. Downie: But I would go home at night and I would talk to Dennis and Delaine about what was going on. And I mentioned your work with the tribal libraries. And do you remember Delaine's book project, where she gathered books from-B Biggs: Oh, yeah. Downie: --from her elementary school to donate? B Biggs: Yes. I forgot all about that. Wow. Downie: No. That she, she came up with that idea on her own and, you know-G Biggs: That's too cool. Downie: --I was so proud of her for doing that. But you know, you have inspired things to go out beyond your own efforts, which I think is really important. B Biggs: Oh, that's beautiful. Tell her thank you. (Gunnar laughs) Downie: I will. B Biggs: And can she fix my iPhone? No. (laughter) She works for Apple, right? Downie: She does. B Biggs: Check it out. Somebody you wanna know (laughter). One beautiful overlapping of that, is we have gone out twice, maybe three times, with therapy dogs to the Little Feathers School at Pala Library. So there's the library, and now there's Little Feathers School. Downie: Good. B Biggs: And I've talked a couple of really good friends into--I’ll drive, and it's a long drive--and to go out and take therapy dogs to-Downie: Oh, that’s wonderful. B Biggs: --tribal kids. Yeah. So that, I have to set it up with her again to do that. But that, so that's like both worlds coming back together again, which is-Downie: Because-B Biggs: --a beautiful-- Transcribed by Aaron Williams 28 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: You, you've mentioned this, but there is Love on a Leash, which seems to be a huge portion of your life now. I mean, you were president of the local, the local chapter, right? B Biggs: Right. And National. G Biggs: National. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And vice president for ten years, and still very, very involved. My issue now is just organizing too many events. I'm doing What Gives Your Life Meaning? (CSUSM initiative and campaign for palliative care) in a couple weeks. And I'm having to, I've learned to say no, kind of, to this sorority, that fraternity, that you know, I just can't do--So we've narrowed it down to four big events at Cal State San Marcos. And six libraries and two-Downie: And you've got all those volunteers to organize with their dogs. B Biggs: Yeah. That's what's going on. Yeah. It's kinda-Downie: Multiple sessions. Yeah. And it's admirable that everybody wants you, but there's also, you could have dogs on campus every day. I mean, if you really-B Biggs: I would love to. Downie: --accommodated everybody who asked. B Biggs: Can't do it. Can’t do it. That was a hard one. And I'm having to step down from Cardiff Library because I have twenty minutes down there, and only had one kid to read to the dogs. So it's like they never got it off the ground, two years now. So, and that's hard. Gunnar knows, like, I don't know how to say no. (laughs) And learning to do that. But yeah, that's a, definitely a passion. And I love the university. I think that's the most important. Downie: Well, you do have your bench on the campus, it says-B Biggs: That's right. (overlapping dialogue) He (Gunnar) calls me a bench! (laughs) Downie: --"I love this university,” I believe is what it says on it. B Biggs: Yes, it does. Yeah. Downie: Right next to the one with Dannis (Mitchell, deceased library employee). B Biggs: Yes, yes. (unintelligible) Yeah. Downie: So, I usually have a closing question. Because we've kind of been through my list here, but is there anything you can think about that, you know, or a culminating statement that you would want to say about the years you've had with Cal State? And you too Gunnar? I mean, you've, you've jumped in and reminded and brought up a few things, but-- Transcribed by Aaron Williams 29 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: I love that university, and I love what it gave me the opportunity to do in terms of the work with tribes, the work with Arts and Lectures. Owing books to, you know, I mean, I did work with patrons, but these other peripheral responsibilities are--run deep and are so meaningful to me. So I'm grateful for the opportunity. And even better to bring my dogs back. G Biggs: Yeah. B Biggs: That's just the best. (laughs) G Biggs: Well, for me, because I did take such a long time off from higher education, it is a home that I found. I got a bachelor's degree there that they let me design. It didn't exist before. I didn't know that was possible. The faculty there said, “You can do this.” I got a single subject California teaching credential there, and I actually taught there for three years as well. So, I consider it my academic home. I feel really at home out there. And I still know people that teach there, which is kind of cool. But it was very accepting to me, very flexible and of the highest quality. I mean, the, I almost said floundering. The founding faculty (laughs) came from such great places. They were really good teachers, researchers, and human beings. I was really just totally immersed in their lives and their subjects. So, it was really a nice place to finish up that part. For me. Downie: And I have to agree wholeheartedly with both of you. B Biggs: Aw. When you turn this (recording) off, I have one final story. Downie: Okay. (laughs) Alright, well I think we can end the interview at this point. So if you'll pass the phone over to me, I'll find the off button, wherever it is. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 30 2024-04 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Biggs, Bonnie and Gunnar. Interview transcript, March 26, 2024. Description An account of the resource Bonnie Biggs was the inaugural Tribal Liaison and a Librarian Emeritus at California State University San Marcos. Gunnar Biggs has been a prominent figure in the musical environment in Southern California for over forty years, and is a retired music instructor from San Diego State University and Palomar College. In this interview, Bonnie and Gunnar recall the early history of CSUSM when it transitioned as the North County satellite campus for San Diego State University into CSUSM in 1989. Bonnie also discusses her academic and professional achievements, including her work as the university's Tribal Liaison. Bonnie and Gunnar additionally recall her sabbatical to Ghana, Ghanaian jazz music and musicians, visiting and working with tribal libraries in New Mexico, and Bonnie's most recent work with Love on a Leash. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bonnie Biggs Gunnar Biggs Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-03-26 Subject The topic of the resource American Indian Library Association California Indians California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Tribal Liaison California State University San Marcos. University Library Libraries -- Ghana Jazz -- Ghana Jazz musicians -- Ghana Love on a Leash Patterson, Lotsee Rodriguez, Henry Nichols, 1919-2002 Tribal libraries -- New Mexico Tribal libraries -- Southern California Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ghana New Mexico San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_transcript Art and artists Community history CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bonnie Biggs OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_2024-03-26.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Biggs, Bonnie, and Gunnar Biggs. Interview March 26, 2024. SC027-055 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm California State University San Marcos ; Tribal libraries--Southern California ; Tribal libraries--New Mexico ; Libraries--Ghana ; Love on a Leash ; Patterson, Lotsee ; American Indian Library Association ; California Indians ; Rodriguez, Henry Nichols, 1919-2002 ; Jazz-Ghana ; Jazz musicians--Ghana ; California State University San Marcos. Tribal Liaison ; California State University San Marcos. University Library Bonnie Biggs Gunnar Biggs Judith Downie audio 1.0:|21(7)|41(9)|69(10)|94(12)|108(12)|138(11)|153(11)|167(16)|191(5)|206(5)|227(12)|244(14)|265(3)|299(15)|331(9)|346(12)|382(8)|401(11)|419(15)|431(7)|443(9)|466(6)|501(6)|528(4)|544(6)|558(5)|582(12)|612(3)|650(16)|673(5)|687(14)|710(5)|728(16)|743(16)|763(3)|777(5)|806(3)|820(8)|833(10)|857(14)|884(10)|915(9)|938(8)|966(10)|1006(17)|1032(3)|1054(6)|1094(6)|1140(5)|1162(11)|1188(3)|1217(14)|1251(2)|1279(7)|1320(8)|1347(14)|1364(4)|1375(12)|1394(10)|1431(7)|1463(6)|1489(6)|1514(3)|1530(15)|1544(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/61a0275718a0293965abb1d4b9d1ca5e.m4a Other audio English 0 Introduction and educational backgrounds Oral history interview with Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs, March 26, 2024. Interview by Judith Downie, Special Collections Librarian at CSUSM. &#13 ; &#13 ; Bonnie Biggs and Gunnar Biggs discuss their educational backgrounds and how they met. 0 160 Early professional and CSUSM history Bonnie Biggs recalls working as a public librarian in Encinitas and Solana Beach while gaining her Master's from USC. After this, she began working as an academic librarian at the SDSU North County satellite campus that would become CSUSM in 1989. Biggs recalls the various professional relationships she cultivated, and the "chaos" in transitioning SDSU to CSUSM. 0 1024 County and Tribal library cooperation In this segment, Bonnie Biggs discusses her role in facilitating cooperation between the San Diego County and Tribal libraries after the dissolution of their working relationship. This included American Indian culture fairs before the establishment of Powwows at CSUSM and most importantly gaining the trust of local Indigenous communities. In the end of this segment, Biggs and Judith Downey discuss the importance of archives in preserving, documenting, and maintaining valuable historical information. 0 1392 Powwows Before powwows were sanctioned at CSUSM, there were American Indian culture fairs. Bonnie Biggs briefly explains the necessities and process of facilitating these social gatherings for Indigenous American communities. Biggs also discusses meeting "Uncle" Henry Rodriguez, a Luiseño elder, culture bearer, and water rights activist who was a crucial to CSUSM in building the university's relationships with local tribes. 0 1759 Tenure and second sabbatical Regarding her second sabbatical, Bonnie Biggs shares her experience working with the Pueblo peoples in New Mexico. She recalls how she met her mentor Dr. Lotsee Patterson (Comanche), founder of the American Indian Library Association, who was instrumental for securing the trust of Tribal communities, and access to Tribal libraries. 0 2057 Academic Senate and Tribal Liaison This segment covers the time Bonnie Biggs served aboard the Academic Senate as vice chair for four years. Biggs shares that she chose not to serve as chair, despite being elected, and instead accepted President Karen Haynes's request to serve as the university's inaugural Tribal Liaison. Biggs considers this one of her most important accomplishments as she was able to build a trusting relationship between CSUSM and tribal communities in Southern California. Biggs also discussed founding the Native Advisory Council alongside Wendy Schlater (Luiseño). 0 2485 Therapy dogs Regarding other "firsts" at CSUSM, Bonnie recalls bringing therapy dogs to campus, and how helpful they are to not only students but staff, faculty, and administrators. A brief segment, Downey transitions to then speaking about Biggs's first sabbatical. 0 2568 First sabbatical in Ghana Narrator Downey circles back to Bonnie Biggs's first sabbatical in Ghana. Both Gunnar and Bonnie Biggs recall working with Dr. W. Komla Amoaku, former Director of Visual and Performing Arts at CSUSM and Director of the National Theater of Ghana. Gunnar recalls his experience sharing jazz knowledge as well as learning Ghanian drumming, while Bonnie recounts going on national radio to speak about the similarities between indigenous libraries in Ghana and tribal libraries in the USA. 0 2980 Additional CSU accomplishments Bonnie Biggs shares some of her other accomplishments at the CSU level, including work with the American Library Association. Bonnie once again discusses therapy dogs, through her work with Love on a Leash, as well as her continued work with the California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center at CSUSM. Finally, Bonnie and Gunnar share their culminating statements regarding their appreciation for CSUSM. 0 Bonnie Biggs was the inaugural Tribal Liaison and a Librarian Emeritus at California State University San Marcos. Gunnar Biggs has been a prominent figure in the musical environment in Southern California for over forty years, and is a retired music instructor from San Diego State University and Palomar College. In this interview, Bonnie and Gunnar recall the early history of CSUSM when it transitioned as the North County satellite campus for San Diego State University into CSUSM in 1989. Bonnie also discusses her academic and professional achievements, including her work as the university's Tribal Liaison. Bonnie and Gunnar additionally recall her sabbatical to Ghana, Ghanaian jazz music and musicians, visiting and working with tribal libraries in New Mexico, and Bonnie's most recent work with Love on a Leash. Downie: All right, so we are now running. Okay. So, this is Judith Downie, curator of the Brewchive® (archive dedicated to preserving the history of the craft brewing industry in San Diego, CA) and History Librarian and Special Collections at Cal State San Marcos, with Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs to talk about Bonnie and Gunnar's history of Cal State San Marcos and other related pieces of their lives. So, I'm, this picks up pretty well. So we shouldn't have-- Bonnie Biggs: Oh, it does. Okay. You want me to sit down? Downie: Well, or let's see. We can maybe put it between the two of you. Okay. You know, because whatever I say, I'll just say it loudly. B Biggs: Oh, okay. Downie: So, yeah, again, this will be Bonnie for the most part, but Gunnar will certainly be jumping in with memory jogs and his personal recollections as well. So, let's start off with Bonnie, your personal history. Where-- B Biggs: Okay. Downie: Where did you grow up and some background on your education. B Biggs: Okay. I grew up not far from you (referring to Downie ; laughs). I grew up in Vista, California and went to Vista High School. Then I went on to Palomar College, got an AA (Associate in Arts) degree, went to San Diego State, got a BA (Bachelor of Arts) in British Literature after the 1800s. And then onto USC (University of Southern California) for my Master's in Library Science. Downie: Okay. Gunnar, how about you? Gunnar Biggs: Oh. Downie: Where did you grow up, and your education? G Biggs: I grew up in San Diego, California, about a block from San Diego State (University ; SDSU). My father was a faculty member in the music department there. And from there I went to North Texas State University in Denton, Texas for a couple of years. Then I took a twenty-year gap, going on the road playing music. And I came back and I got my bachelor's at Cal State San Marcos in Ethnic Studies and Global Arts, after completing my general ed(ucation) at Palomar College. And that's, yeah, that's about it in terms of my education. Downie: Okay. And so where did the two of you meet? B Biggs: Jazz Club. G Biggs: It was the Hyatt Islandia on Mission Bay. (laughs) Downie: Gunnar’s got the details. (Laughs) B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a friend take me to, to hear the French horn player. They usually don't play jazz, and this phenomenal famous piano player, but I liked the bass player. G Biggs: Which is very unusual (laughter) for the bass player to get the nod, you know? B Biggs: Yeah. So that's, and that was in 1981. Downie: Alright. So, let's move on to your professional history, Bonnie. I've sketched out a timeline from what I know, but of course I can be imperfect. So, we'll start with, I know you worked in public libraries-- B Biggs: Yes. Downie: Before you moved into the academic library field. B Biggs: Yeah. I started my career at the Encinitas Library. Not the one we see now, the big beautiful one (snapping noise). But on that same site in 1973, and I worked there for nine years. And then I was moved to Solana Beach to become the branch manager for four years. And during that time, met him (Gunnar) and started going to grad school up at USC while I managed the Solana Beach Library. And when I got my master's I started looking around, and that's when I found SDSU North County. (I) was looking for a library (overlapping dialogue). Downie: So, what year would that have been? B Biggs: The SDSU North County? I would've started in 1986. Downie: Okay. B Biggs: And we were-- Downie: That was long after they had established that satellite campus (SDSU North Couty satellite campus that officially became CSUSM in 1989). B Biggs: Right. I think it had been around, I think since the late seventies. I'm sure you've got history in the (overlapping dialogue) archives. Downie: Limited history, limited history. I think it's mostly at San Diego State. B Biggs: Yeah. So, it was San Diego State North County, and I was the librarian, and under the wonderful Dick Rush (CSUSM's first executive vice president). Whom we (Bonnie and Gunnar) just saw a couple weeks ago, had lunch with him. And what was interesting, he was less interested in my librarianship as my arts and lectures chops, because I had been doing music and a lot of outreach in the public library system. And he wanted to get San Diego State North County out to the community. We were in Jerome's (furniture store in San Marcos) parking lot, right. So we started having concerts, thanks to Gunnar. We got amazing musicians and put on festivals and, you know, Mexican fiestas and jazz con- you know, jazz. It was like a festival, actually-- G Biggs: It was a jazz festival. B Biggs: So, so we started doing that. And then of course, I had to be a librarian too. That was always the thing. I had to do both. And that carried over when we (SDSU North County satellite campus) became Cal State San Marcos. Downie: So then you were at San Diego State North County while it was still in Vista (California). B Biggs: It wasn't in Vista at that time, but yeah, I know what you're talking about. It was, it had just started in San Marcos. But I know where that campus was. It was in the old Vista High, where I went to high school. So by ‘86 when I started, they had already moved into the Jerome's lot (building used for the campus that later became that furniture store). Downie: Oh, okay. That’s all very fuzzy in our records, so I've never been too sure. So that helps clarify that. B Biggs: Sandy Punch (retired CSUSM administrator) might be a good one to talk to. In fact, I have lunch with her this month. Yeah. Downie: Tell her I'm hunting for her. (laughs) B Biggs: I will, I'll do that. She'll love it. Downie: Okay. So, you were there for the transition- B Biggs: Oh, boy. Downie: To San Diego State North County. So, you never actually worked at San Diego State Libraries? B Biggs: No, San Diego State North County only. But I will tell you there, there were a couple of librarians at the main campus who were my mentors and who helped me make that transition, because it's a different world and- Downie: From public to academic. B Biggs: Oh my goodness. Yeah. So, Philip White comes to mind. He was a very, very good friend. And he even came up a couple of times. Just having to do with working with faculty, developing the collection. The trick was the faculty was changing because they were starting to phase out North Count-- Well, they were solid for a while, but we were bringing in Cal State San Marcos faculty. So at one point I was reporting to two deans. When they hired Marion (Reid), she became my dean of the library. But I also was reporting kind of to Pat Huckle, who was the dean of San Diego State North County. Whom we just saw last week. We took her to lunch. So I stay in touch with these wonderful leaders that I got to, to work with. Downie: Okay, so you didn't have to move San Diego State North County or CSUSM to the Valecito site, Jerome's (Bonnie affirms) West, as we all call it. Because it had already moved. But what sorts of, I mean, you were answering to two deans (Bonnie affirms) at the very least. But there must have been other challenges and opportunities in this whole transition from being a satellite of San Diego State University to its own freestanding Cal State San Marcos. So, what do you remember of that? B Biggs: I remember that it, I didn't know that much about academic politics at the time, but I remember there was a lot of it. And (I) started to figure out what the landscape was and just treaded very carefully, made friends with a lot of the faculty. David Whitehorse comes to mind, he’s one of my best friends there. He was San Diego State North County. And then beginning to get to know the founding faculty at Cal State (San Marcos). I remember there was a part of us at San Diego State North County who didn't want the change. We were thrilled that the state wanted to have this new university. We just had a nice little comfy warm tight-knit organization. And so, it was chaos for a while. And bringing Bill Stacy (founding president, CSUSM) on, luckily he and Dick Rush got along pretty well. As they also transitioned from one to the other. G Biggs: Didn't they fast track the change over? It was, it happened before people had-- B Biggs: Very quick. G Biggs: --predicted. It was one day they were a satellite, and the next day they said, “We're about to move to the new campus as soon as it builds in.” You know, so. B Biggs: I'm trying to think who the governor was at the time that came down. G Biggs: Yeah. It was like, it was a governor's decision to go-- B Biggs: And signed the paperwork. Downie: Was that (George) Deukmejian? (laughs) B Biggs: It wasn't, no. Wasn't (Bill) Craven. I mean, it was, was it a senator? Anyway, some, some, I have a photo in one of these somewhere of-- Downie: Well, we have a signed certificate, I think from (Governor) Gray Davis. B Biggs: That might, that was probably it. Yeah. Yeah. He would've been the governor then. Yeah. So, that was when things got a little bit strange because we started to phase things out at North County and move. And that's when we took over the other building across the street. And the library moved into that space. Marion coming from, 'cause there, there's a question here (laughs). How, you know, she didn't know what to call me or what to offer me as a position because, to have called me Assistant Dean, that implies tenure and, you know, academic credit that far exceeded what I had at the time. I was just, you know, a public librarian learning to be. So she, but generously, I think it was generous, she gave me the title of Assistant to the Dean. And of course I was that. I assisted her on many things, head of, then it became Head of Public Services, or (unintelligible), it was called Coordinator for Public Services. They call it patron, is it now, it's not public services-- Downie: User services, (overlapping) what we call it. B Biggs: User services, I like that. Yeah. And then later Arts and Lectures (curriculum-linked events produced by CSUSM College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral and Social Sciences). So there, there I had one business card with three titles on it, which I think a lot of people did at that new university. Downie: Yeah. We all had to do a variety of jobs. And we were not in the, centralized or no, I forget what the term is, but where you just kind of did things. It got done, it got taken care of, and it's gotten so much structure-- B Biggs: Crossing lines-- Downie: Permissions and paying for everything. Where it used to just be, it got done and somebody covered the cost. (Bonnie affirms). But it does seem like there would've been a lot of long hours and obviously confusion as to lines of responsibility, but it got worked out. B Biggs: It really did. Downie: Seems like. B Biggs: And luckily, on one end, we had Dick Rush who, I got to tell him at lunch a couple weeks ago, what a wonderful leader he was. He constantly took time out, when we didn't even have time to go to the bathroom or breathe and gather us around his desk or somewhere in the library, and just let us know how wonderful we were and how much our work was appreciated. And what that does, you know, it gives you a shot in the arm and you just keep going. And Pat Huckle was the one, again my other dean saying, “Bonnie, at the end of the day, it's just gonna be a dead librarian if we keep this up.” (Gunnar laughs) Meaning she got--I told her about that the other day. (Laughs) It, she gave me the permission to place some limits in my ability to do all the stuff we were required to do. We were thought to be doing. And I don't know that that slowed me down a whole lot, but-- Downie: Probably not. B Biggs: Yeah. G Biggs: Well, Dick, Dick told you the library is the heart of a university. (Bonnnie affirms). So that's where he came from. Initially it was like, build this library and you will have a successful university. So that kind of put the weight on your shoulders. (Bonnie affirms). “Okay, I gotta build the heart.” B Biggs: And the fact that he wanted the arts made such a difference in that tiny little Jerome's library, bringing the principal brass of the San Diego Symphony because of his (Gunnar) connections, for a concert. And Peter Sprague (jazz guitarist) out in the parking lot. It just, it put us on the map, in a tiny way. Because people saw, that there, there actually was a campus there kind of (laughs). Downie: Yeah. So even years later, I was at a conference and somebody said, “Oh, San Diego State North County.” I'm like, “No, we haven't been that for a number of years, thank you very much.” B Biggs: Yes, yes, yes. (laughs). Downie: But you know, if you're not right there in the thick of it, you didn’t realize-- B BIggs: It was 1989 when I think, I mean, that's a date that really sticks out, I had been there three years. And 1989 was when we were signed-- Downie: When Bill Stacy came in and-- B Biggs: Right. Downie: Brought in the founding faculty and-- B Biggs: Right. And that's-- (overlapping dialogue) Downie: --things started really changing. B Biggs: Have you gotten all the founding faculty? I'm assuming you've-- Downie: Marion got oral histories from-- B Biggs: Oh, good. Downie: --I think everybody, and it would be nice to go back to some of them and, get a looking back now, what you saw then versus what you're, what you’ve-- B Biggs: In retrospect. (overlapping dialogue) What, yeah. Downie: In retrospect view of that, that could be extremely interesting. But so, you were there to move into the permanent campus on Twin Oaks Valley Road. And that was while I was not on campus. That was during my period of exile, as I call it, after I got my master's. And I went down to United States International University. So that's, there's a chunk of campus history that I didn't personally experience-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: How long were you-- Downie: I was there eighteen months. B Biggs: At, at USIU. Downie: Yeah. B Biggs: Okay, yeah. Downie: And so, and of course-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: I forgot that. Downie: --being that the position I was in as a staff person when I left, I was not involved in planning or any of that sort of thing. (Bonnie affirms), I'm sure you were, I know Marion certainly was. Way-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: Oh yeah. Way deep. (overlapping dialogue) Downie: Way, deep, deep, deep into it. But you certainly had a lot of input as well. So, what do you remember about running up to moving onto the permanent campus at Twin Oaks Valley (Road) and then the move? Other than we had to borrow book carts from everybody, every library in the county. B Biggs: Yes. I remember that. Of course, Marion was much more in charge of that and involved. I think I was doing more hands-on and working with a few staff. We had to fill those book carts and get things moved into the library. I will say a major memory of that was that we were not invited to the groundbreaking. I just have to go on record to say that. And there were many people who had been doing that kind of work, high level work. You know, like Marion, she was there. But those of us who helped build the foundation of that university--San Diego State North County--were not invited to the groundbreaking. So that, that's something that's one of the few bitter kind of, “Really?” (Downie affirms) Kind of thing. Maybe Dick was, yeah, I'm sure he went because he had transitioned-- G Biggs: There's a picture, there's of all the shovel people-- B Biggs: All the shovels. No (San Diego State) North County people. So that was interesting. (Downie affirms) And it is kind of a blur. I mean, all of the nuts and bolts and physical work. I just remember it being a lot of physical hard work, getting--Marion probably was up here (referring to planning and coordination of the campus move) more than, you know, the moving of the materials. And-- G Biggs: They got somebody local that had a moving company to help move the collection, box them up-- B Biggs: And I, I think Jim Hanson may have helped. G Biggs: Jim Hanson was on there, but I forget who it was that had trucks. He had a moving company, right? B Biggs: I don't remember that. Downie: Well, they were, they were flatbed trucks with board sides, and we had all those book trucks. And the day we moved the collection, it was raining. So we had to wrap all the book trucks in plastic-- B Biggs: I remember that now. Downie: To move them into Craven Hall, which is now the Administration Building. B Biggs: Right. Downie: And then of course, the ceiling was leaking, even though the books were on the fourth floor, we didn't have our shelving yet. So, the books were sitting on the floor. (laughs) B Biggs: You have more memories of that-- G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: --than I do. That's interesting. I, yeah. Downie: Well, again, you had other responsibilities that you were running the arts programs and, (Bonnie affirms) you know, everything. And (overlapping dialogue) areas of responsibility. B Biggs: And all the Indian stuff had started by then too because, you know Whitehorse, the way it started was David Whitehorse (School of Education Emeritus faculty) walked into my office. He was standing as State North County faculty and said, “The plan of cooperation between the county library system and the tribes is dissolving, they’re--what can you do about it?” Like, “How do I (Biggs) know what to do about it?” (Downie laughs). So, I had started going out and working with the tribes at that point. We had American Indian Storytellings-- G Biggs: Storytelling. B Biggs: --we had the American Indian culture--we couldn't call it a powow--culture fair, inside and over at the Red Barn (Williams Barn, San Marcos, California). So I was kind of doing a lot of that stuff at the same time. That's why I don't have really clear memories of the actual movement of the books. But-- G Biggs: That’s where you met Uncle Henry (Rodriguez ; Native American water rights activist ; instrumental in preserving indigenous California culture) was at the, at the storytellings. B Biggs: Yeah. He was, yes. G Biggs: I see that down there, yeah. Downie: So that really kind of segues beautifully into the next session, which is your work with the local tribes, the California tribal libraries. So, how did you actually become interested in this particular part of our population? B Biggs: Yeah. Well, David Whitehorse told me I had to (combined laughter). I mean, when he said, when I looked at the plan of cooperation it was a plan, very loose plan that the San Diego County Library system, which is thirty-three branches from Otay Mesa to Fallbrook. And the system I came from, they had a plan of cooperation. It just meant that they would do some interlibrary loan and maybe occasionally go out and help, you know, people with collection development. But it all of a sudden was dissolving. And so, I'm trying to think of the timing. It was at a time, one of those times when the budget was going to hell in California. So, they were pulling funding back and staffing ability to go out and even do the little bit that they were doing. So, David wanted to know what I was gonna do about it. So, I did start going out to some of the local libraries: Pala, Rincon, Pauma, La Jolla, San Pasquale, just the local, the most local (to North County San Diego), not south. There were no casinos for many years until after I started working with them (California tribal libraries). So, it was more just about getting an assessment of who had what. Some of them had combination museums and libraries, which is not uncommon on most tribal land. So, I just started developing. I would say, and I tell people this, it took seven years to get totally trusted and implanted into the culture. You don't just go out and say, “Hi, I'm a white librarian, I'm gonna help you out.” (Laughs) It really did take years and years and years. But doing things like “Prez to the Rez,” taking the (university) presidents out there developing tribal communities, task forces, I'm getting ahead of myself, but that, it was that kind of stuff that gained the trust of the tribal communities. And the big part of that, ultimately, first it was, do something because the library system is abandoning them. But the more important thing was we need to get these Indian students to the university to trust coming to a university. Lots of history on that, you know, with what we did to native people in boarding schools. So, it really did take a long time to gain the trust, and the numbers show now that our native population at the university is one of the highest, last I looked, in all the CSUs (California State Universities). So, and we were the first to have a tribal liaison. And it was Tish (Tishmall Turner). No, it wasn’t (laughs). You saw that. That was a-- Downie: Well, this is a problem with a lot of the firsts that we've done on the campus is nobody stopped to think, this is the first we need, we need to record this somewhere. And responsibilities have moved from department to department. From unit to unit. Across. And then we've had changes in presidents, changes in everything. B Biggs: Deans and-- Downie: So after a while, yes, it gets lost. B Biggs: That's why archives are so, I mean seriously, it's so important, especially with a university this young. You got, I'm glad Jen (Fabbi) is moving there (to CSUSM’s Special Collections). I mean, you need all the help you can get, and you've got an opportunity before it gets too far down the road to capture all this amazing history. Downie: Cause we've already lost some very key players. That, you know, you can't go and interview them now. Unfortunately. B Biggs: No. No, I know. Downie: So, yeah. So it's become, becoming more critical all the time. B Biggs: Yeah. Did somebody, I'm sure they did. They must have interviewed Dick Rush at some point. So-- Downie: Nobody's interviewed Dick Rush yet. B Biggs: Wow. Downie: Yeah. No, we, we have his papers. I mean, he doc-- B Biggs: He did. That's right. Downie: We have more paper from Dick Rush in boxes in Special Collections than from anybody else. G Biggs: Do you (Bonnie) still have your yellow legal pad thing where Dick had (overlapping dialogue) bullets for what, what he wanted you to do? Handwritten. B Biggs: We’ll have to find that. But, you know, we're gonna go up mid-April, just for a two-night trip for our anniversary, our fortieth anniversary. And we're gonna see Dick probably, we'll probably stop in Camarillo (city in California). And should I ask him if he is interested in being interviewed? Downie: Yeah, please. B Biggs: Okay. That would, wow. I mean, because beyond those boxes, this is somebody-- Downie: Oh, there's so much more. B Biggs: Somebody who really, really knows the story. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, because he was there from ground zero, basically. B Biggs: He was a British literature professor at (Downie laughs) San Diego State. Downie: Those Brit Lit people, I tell you. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Downie: So I know that you have mentioned to me over time that you went, you know, when you were first working with the tribal libraries, that you would go to tribal councils and you would just sit there and just listen. (Bonnie affirms) And, you know, speak when you were spoken to or invited to speak, things like that. But where did you meet Uncle Henry (Rodriguez)? B Biggs: I think at a powwow (a social gathering celebrating Indigenous American culture). G Biggs: Or a, well, there's a picture of him at the Red Barn with Lee Dixon (Pauma Band of Mission Indians). And- B Biggs: So it would've been the American Indian-- G Biggs: Find that picture-- B Biggs: --culture fair, we couldn't have powwows yet. And David (Whitehorse) helped organize those. So that was when we were still San Diego State North County. And he (Rodriguez) was always invited as an elder to give the blessing. And he did that for us until the day he died. But commencements and powwows, so met him there. I'm trying to think how I got close to him. Just got close to him. Downie: He was a very astute man. (Bonnie affirms) He probably saw your empathy and connection. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And he knew I was working with the tribal libraries. I'd come, I'd go to the La Jolla Reservation, which is way up Palomar Mountain. They had like a room with- so many of these libraries all around the country, really. Or a couple of shelves of books. One of them at Manzanita (Reservation of the Manzanita Band of the Kumeyaay Nation), I think was a bookshelf in a fire department. That was their library, you know, and people took me in and said, “Here's our library.” And yeah. So, Henry (Rodriguez) knew I was doing that work, and yeah. He knew I--to say in Luiseño, I had a good heart, I guess is. Downie: Okay. And you've already talked about bringing the powwow to campus, but it was the American Cultural Fair. Before the American Indian Cultural Fair. Before it was actually a powwow. What were the mechanisms by where it could become a powwow? B Biggs: Yeah. It had to be, of course outside, and with a number of different things, different dancers, different singers. Bird songs are important for local culture. So it, you saw a couple of them, I'm sure. It's huge. It's not something that you hold inside. So the parameters are really about dancers and music and a processional. So Henry (Rodriguez) would often, with me and Whitehorse, lead the procession. There's a blessing of the field. So, probably an Indian person could tell you more what the specifics were you, you would have a--what was Randy Edmonds (American Indian Tribal Leader)? Barry, what was Randy Edmonds? G Biggs: Randy Edmonds was the MC. B Biggs: He was the master of ceremony. So, so- Downie: Randy’s last name? B Biggs: Randy Edmonds. Downie: Edmonds. B Biggs: And he's still alive. I just heard something about him the other day. So, there were just a whole bunch of things. The idea of the American Indian Culture Fair was to at least get people used to it. So there would be a prayer and a blessing at a table. Got pictures of that stuff going with Henry. But, and I think they could do like a few small bird songs and maybe a little, you know, dances. But, they would have booths. And it was just a mini powwow is the best way to describe it. Powwow didn't happen till we moved to the campus. And we had that lower field, which I think is soccer now. Downie: It's used a lot for soccer, but I think it could be used for other sports as well. Yeah, it's right down there at the, on the corner of the entrance on Twin Oak Valley Road. B Biggs: Right. We always drive by when I'm on campus, “There's the powwow field.” That was huge. And I don't know if you know there's an Indian store over here (referencing a picture). They just closed or they're moving this. Downie: Oh, they closed. B Biggs: Yeah, but we were in there and recently just to help with any, you know, buying things. And the guy said, I said, “Do you remember me? I,” and he goes, “Oh yeah. Was (referring to the CSUSM American Indian Cultural Fair) the best organized powwow ever.” Because they went to all the tribes. Downie: Oh, I'm sure they did. B Biggs: I said, “It's because a librarian organized it.” (laughter ; overlapping dialogue) Librarians-- Downie( Exactly. You put a librarian on it, it's gonna be organized. B Biggs: I know. He was. Yeah. So, they were always there and selling things. What were you trying to- G Biggs: I was trying to find that picture of the lineup. B Biggs: The perfect processional, yeah. G Biggs: Lee Dixon, who's passed away. Jane Dumas. David Whitehorse, Uncle Henry. You (Bonnie Biggs) and somebody else, they're all lined up. But that was in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Downie: We have a few pictures of the Cultural Fair, what was going on in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: And-- G Biggs: Yeah, Randy Edmonds charged me with carrying Carol Bonomo (CSUSM Administrator Emeritus) out of the arena. They had just smudged blessed the arena, and you weren't, you weren't to enter the arena after that. And Carol comes across there and Randy goes, “Go get her and get her out of there.” So, I had to pick up Carol and-- B Biggs: Small, she's small. (overlapping dialogue ; laughter) G Biggs: I know. And carry her out the arena, kicking and screaming. She tells that story all the time. B Biggs: All the time. Yeah. She loves that story. G Biggs: And I said, “It's not me! I was told to do this, so I do this.” B Biggs: (laughs) It was, yeah. G Biggs: But there's certain protocols for the, like that. You don't enter the arena after it's been blessed and stuff like that. B Biggs: And I don't, I can't even remember how many years it went on, but after many years I think I was starting to think about retirement, but the students took over. Downie: Yeah, the American Indian Student Alliance. B Biggs: And it didn’t-- Downie: They did it, I think, for two years. And then being that the student population changes, you don't have the continuity that you have-- B Biggs: Exactly. Downie: --of actual employed staff and faculty to lead something. I mean, I've seen that happen so many times with the student organizations. They'll be there for a year or so, and then the person who was excited and found it, graduates. Good for them. Yes. But then they haven't developed a line of succession either. (Bonnie affirms) And then something else will pop up. But-- B Biggs: Yeah, that was unfortunate. And people were sad about it. And I think right after that, either I was going up for tenure--that's what it was, Whitehorse and I finally said, “You know, we better do this tenure thing.” And so suddenly I started publishing, you know, in a flying hurry. I'd done some, and then that's what it was. Yeah, we both had to step down. Downie: Tenure becomes quite the time suck. B Biggs: I'll never forget Dick (Rush) telling me, because I was just being a librarian, I didn't understand the whole, again because I wasn't really part of yet of the faculty. Downie: Well, we didn't have a faculty mentorship program that we do now. There was really, you were just doing what had to be done. And hopefully somebody told you. B Biggs: All of sudden, oh, you're supposed to write about this. Okay. And that was another thing, is doing all of the publications I did, all had to do with tribal libraries. You have to be careful, you know, and respectful, and vet things. And so that was, that sort of added to the lengths of time to get things done. Downie: And so, as part of your scholarly work of course, was the California Tribal Library Survey, which that was, was on a sabbatical, right? B Biggs: You know, the, the strange thing was the first sabbatical was Africa, right after I got tenure. And then the State Library of California paid my--paid the university, gave Marion money to cover me while I did that survey. The second actual one was going around and doing the New Mexico Pueblos. So that was my sabbatical. The second one. Yeah, the first one was right, you know right after you get tenure, you get a sabbatical. That was Africa. And-- Downie: Well, now you can apply for a sabbatical and hope you get one. (laughs) B Biggs: Hope you get one. Exactly. And the, and the second one, and I'm trying to remember how long afterwards that was. G Biggs: What, Africa? Downie: It's usually (overlapping dialogue) every six years-- B Biggs: Yeah, something like that. Yeah. And then, but the, the census and needs assessment for the State Library of California was just a thing that they asked me to do because I'd become involved in, so that took us all the way up to a sheet. Yeah. So-- Downie: And that was 2001, 2002, as it says on the spine, a very fat binder. (laughter) B Biggs: Yes. Of a very fat binder. And he (Gunnar) was on that one. I have no sense of direction. So, Gunnar drove me. Not only there, because a lot of the you know, reservations are really way out there and not very well signed. You see the signages, “Go three rocks up past the, you know, the oak tree and turn left.” Same thing with going around to the Pueblos in New Mexico. And I went on that trip because Lotsee Patterson (librarian and founder of the American Indian Library Association), my mentor, said that the best tribal library system in the country was within the pueblos of New Mexico (referring to the physical establishments of the Pueblo peoples). And that's because she helped guide them along for decades. And it was an amazing trip. Downie: And how did you meet Lotsee? B Biggs: At an AL- AILA, American Indian Library Association meeting. And we rode in a taxi somewhere, and I remember-- G Biggs: Chicago. B Biggs: --remember thinking, “Oh my God, I'm in a taxi with Lotsee Paterson.” (laughter) And she was the most likable, lovable, again, we talked to her just a few weeks ago. She got her materials to Sean (Visintainer ; Head of CSUSM Special Collections) for, yeah. But she's the one, I mean, everything really centers around her. And we just became friends and I guess kind of a, she was kind of a mentor and a not in a real strict way but she, just by way of being around her she was mentoring me. Downie: Well, I think that's a very much cultural way is just simply organically as it happens, you pass your knowledge onto someone else rather than the formal academic environment that you know, we commonly think of. G Biggs: She would take the students on a summer trip to the pueblos. And we would, we tagged along on one of those. So, in desert summer in New Mexico with our dog in the car and everything, but we would go to library to library, and she (Patterson) would know everybody. Down to the tribal policeman that tried to throw us out once, you know. “How's your cousin doing?” And he'd look at her and he'd go, “Oh my goodness, go ahead.” You know. (laughter) But without those kind of inroads, you don't just walk into a-- B Biggs: And she helped me get entre into all of the, all of the Pueblos who are just phenomenal people. Yeah. Downie: Lots of, lots of accomplishments there. So that will bring us onto your other career accomplishments. On campus, I know that you were the first librarian faculty to serve as the Academic Senate chair, which was a pretty big deal because there weren't too many of us librarians (Bonnie affirms). G Biggs: --weren’t Chair though. Downie: Number one (laughs). B Biggs: Right. There weren't, and, but the deal was, this is very strange, and I have to find it. I'd been senate vice chair for maybe four years, and I think by the time Bud Morris (Dr. G.H. “Bud” Morris ; professor of communications and former Academic Senate chair) was ready to step down, I said, “Okay, I will go ahead and do this.” But I stepped out. I didn't, I ended up not serving as chair. And it was because I was getting ready to retire. I think that would've been 2004. And Karen (Haynes ; President of CSUSM 2004 to 2019) had just said to me, “Will you be tribal liaison?” So, I ended up not serving. I think I was the only person who was voted, and also the only person who ever said, “I'm not gonna do it.” And that was, that was a big stink. And even Alex Gonzalez (former CSUSM President 1997-2003) was pissed at me (Gunnar laughs). I hated--didn't care for him. (laughs) But no so I didn't, but I served certainly for, I don't know, fifteen years on the executive committee and then four years as vice chair. Ick. Ick. Downie: That was certainly long enough. But, that's what people had to do. I mean, there weren't that many people to serve in positions. Patty Seleski (CSUSM Professor Emerita) was, what, History Department chair for twelve years? (Bonnie affirms) Because she just said, “I'll take it on, because the junior faculty need to be able to work and get their tenure.” (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: And do their research, and yeah. Exactly. Downie: So, we made sacrifices in some ways. B Biggs: We just talked to Pat (Seleski) last week when we went down. She's almost blind now, but she said that she was senate chair for three years straight. I don't think we've had anyone do that many years straight. Have we? Downie: Somebody recently did do I think two terms. B Biggs: Okay. Downie: But that was when it was one-year terms. Now it's become a two-year term. B Biggs: Has it? Okay. Downie: Glen Brodowsky (CSUSM Marketing Professor) is chair right now. B Biggs: Glen is, and he was always on (academic) senate with me. (overlapping dialogue) I love Glen. Downie: So, but any other firsts that you did? I mean, you certainly started the Arts and Lectures program. You certainly brought, you know, the tribal collaboration and partnerships to campus. But what, what other sorts of things? B Biggs: Firsts? G Biggs: Tribal liaison. Tribal Liaison. B Biggs: Oh, the tribal liaison I think is really important because, there were none anywhere. And so, establishing those relationships in the tribal communities task force, sort of paved the road. You read that history that I corrected that went to Patricia, Patricia (Prado)-Olmos. So, I think that that's probably, if I were to say the one thing I was most proud of, is that we established a position on campus that was about serving native communities. And then now that, I understand that they've got a couple in other CSUs, they have something. Maybe not the exact title at SDSU. And then the UCs (Universities of California) got a couple now. But we didn't have, there wasn't anyone. And yeah, I didn't like the fact that it was forgotten that there was someone who was before Tishmall. But getting Tishmall there as a local Luiseño tribal member was so important. Getting Joely Proudfit (Department Chair and Professor, American Indian Studies Department) to come to campus was, that was amazing. You know we lured her away from CSU San Bernadino, and to get a couple of local tribal people, really what that does is it opens the door for native students. I mean, we started that by having our tribal community task force. We go out to the rez, “Prez to the Rez”. We do things out there to bring people in. Untrusting native students and families started to see that we were a safe place for them to come. But the tribal liaison position, probably I would say, I would think the most important thing that I accomplished. Downie: Would you say, if I remember correctly, San Diego County has more tribes than any other county in California? B Biggs: Federally recognized. Yeah. Downie: Federally recognized. Okay. Would you say that was maybe one of the reasons that we could be the first in that? Because-- B Biggs: I would think so. Downie: --there was just a larger population to work with. B Biggs: We had a larger population, and we had, we were young enough. Karen Haynes was one hundred percent behind it. I was on her search committee, and I got to ask one question, each of the faculty members (got to ask one question). And mine was, “We have nineteen federally recognized tribes in the county of San Diego. What do you think you would like to do, if you became president, about that?” And she said, “First of all, I would talk to people who know about it, and know what the needs are, and want to meet with the native people.” And I was like, “You're hired.” Downie: Ding, ding, ding, ding. (laughter) B Biggs: You're hired. So it was really having a leader on campus who was one hundred percent behind doing this work. And she came to a number of our, before we had NAC (Native Advisory Council), came to a lot of our tribal communities task force meetings, just to hear--that was getting people from business, you know, you think it's- Who, Raj (Dr. Rajnandini, CSUSM Professor of Management)? Is Raj still there? Downie: I believe so, yeah. B Biggs: And Glen Brodowsky. Folks that you wouldn't think would have anything to do with this stuff all had input and all had ways to take their resources and their knowledge base out to the reservation. Or their advice to the reservation to help-- Downie: And NAC is Native Advisory Council? B Biggs: Yeah. And that, that evolved. You know, so Wendy Schlater (member of the La Jolla Band of Luiseño, elected vice chairwoman of that tribe in 2019) from La Jolla rez, Henry’s rez, and I went to President Hayes and said, “We need-“ you know, there was at the time what they call Latin- Latino Faculty and Staff-- G Biggs: LAFS- B Biggs: LAFS. G Biggs: Latin American Faculty and Staff. B Biggs: And then they had just started an African American council. So, I thought, you know, we should--especially because we have so many tribes in the area, and it was time. And they're still meeting. I'm not going anymore. But, but it's wonderful that, that they are meeting and that, and I believe President Neufeldt (CSUSM President Ellen J. Neufeldt, appointed in 2019) is behind everything I've worked with her on having to do with the tribes. She's very-- Downie: It dovetails nicely with her social mobility focus. B Biggs: Right. It does. Yeah. Downie: Okay. So-- B Biggs: Oh, another first on campus was bringing therapy dogs. Downie: Okay, well-- G Biggs: It's down here. B Biggs: Oh, is it on here? (laughs) G Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) I see it right at the bottom there. B Biggs: Oh, is it really? G Biggs: Right at the bottom. Downie: But no, that's I think perfectly. That's, that's a wonderful first. Yeah. I think that's been done, you know, like in the county libraries of the public libraries, there's been the reading to dogs. So, it's not like it was completely foreign to people that dogs could be used in a very positive way. Other than just simply assistance animals. And there's nothing simple about that. But you know, the therapy dogs and the comfort or support dogs and things like that. I haven't seen a support alligator on campus yet, thankfully. Or a support snake. Any, any kind of reptile. Haven't seen those yet. But it does seem like it's being a more acceptable thing, but just the bringing them on right at finals time. (Bonnie affirms) To give students another form of release is, it's obviously quite popular. I walk out to see you and, you know, there are just students everywhere, you know, coming by, you know? Kids that didn't know about it are coming by and just, “Oh, well I gotta stop and touch a puppy.” B Biggs: And faculty and staff. And administrators-- G Biggs: Presidents. Downie: Yes. We all need it. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Librarians. Yeah. Downie: Okay. So we can move on to some of your other career accomplishments beyond the firsts. You did do a sabbatical in Ghana, and wasn't that one of the first internationally, international-- B Biggs: Might have been. I don't know who else had gone-- Downie: --sabbaticals. I don't have a list of who's done a sabbatical when and where they went, but it doesn't seem like we had too many faculty-- B Biggs: Not that many of them-- Downie: --that were internationally focused the way you were on this. B Biggs: And there was somehow money. It was obviously Komla Amoaku (Dr. W. Komla Amoaku, former Director of Visual and Performing Arts at CSUSM) who got me interested because they do have what I would call tribal libraries, or libraries formed by indigenous people in Ghana. And so, he got money through the-- G Biggs: United States (overlapping dialogue) Information, USIA. B Biggs: So, so a little bit of money to help fund that. We of course got some money from the university I guess, to go, but we ended up paying your (Gunnar’s) way. G Biggs: Yeah. Thanks. B Biggs: For everything. And we stayed at a woman's home, auntie-- G Biggs: Jane Korontang. B Biggs: Korontang-- G Biggs: On Labadi Beach on the Gulf of Guinea. B Biggs: So Komla-- Downie: I may have to ask for spelling. (laughter) B Biggs: Komla got us connected everywhere. And we had a--but it, but again, it was to go around and talk with people in libraries that again, were kind of like the tribal libraries here. Some pretty well formed, some others, very slim, I would say. But the thing about Ghana was Komla was very involved in the music world there. He was the director-- G Biggs: Director. B Biggs: Of the national Symphony-- G Biggs: Theater. B Biggs: Symphony or Orchestra? G Biggs: National Theater of Ghana. B Biggs: National Theater of Ghana-- G Biggs: Which was an umbrella organization for all the arts-- B Biggs: For all the arts-- G Biggs: Music, theater, et. cetera-- B Biggs: So he ended up getting this one. It was like my sabbatical. And he (Gunnar) was the star. (laughs) G Biggs: No. No. B Biggs: He had, he had you conduct the-- G Biggs: Well, I, we went to hear a concert of the National Symphony of Ghana which was, it's a long story, so I won't go into it now, but it was really a treat. And the next day, Komla said, “Would you go to their rehearsal and talk to them about their performance?” So I did. And it was amazing, you know, and they had me conduct a piece during the rehearsal. But they were using some like, traditional African instruments in a symphony orchestra. That was just ridiculous. I mean, it was so good. And they--I found out that they didn't have strings for the--they didn't have a, they would break a string and they would find some way to make a string. Downie: Oh, wow. G Biggs: So when I got back, what I did is I asked all my symphony friends, I said, “If you have old sets of strings, tuners, anything that would be violin, viola, cello, or bass, give them to me. I'll get them to Ghana.” So, I sent a whole care package. They couldn't tune up. They didn't have a piano that was in tune, so I sent them tuners and things like that. But-- B Biggs: And the other, there are a lot of stories, but the other thing about him is we went to a couple of jazz clubs. G Biggs: Which we didn't know existed in the first place-- B Biggs: In the first place. G Biggs: --there were jazz clubs in Accra (capital of Ghana), the main-- B Biggs: But we walked in and Komla introduced him (Gunnar) as this big jazz star. And he ended up showing the African musicians how to play jazz, which is some funny stuff. I mean, jazz originated in Africa. And the rhythmic foundations of jazz-- G Biggs: Well, the head of USIS, United States Information Service, Nick Robertson, who lived in Ojai (California). Anyway, he was a jazz vibraphone player. He played vibes. And he had gotten together, we got some music sent over. Some musicians in Accra, to form a band, at the place called The Bassline. B Biggs: As in bass line. G Biggs: It was amazing, you know? And so I sat in and then, then he said, “We're gonna close the club tomorrow, and you're gonna do a clinic.” I said, “Okay!” (laughter) And then here, and I felt so outta place, because here I am trying to show them the idiom of American jazz, which wouldn't exist were it not for West African influences, ‘cause they had a little couple of pieces of the puzzle rearranged, kind of, and it turned-- B Biggs: By the end of the night, they were-- G Biggs: By the end of the night, they-- B Biggs: They totally had it. G Biggs: They got it immediately. And so I got to-- Downie: Well, they had the foundation. G Biggs: Yeah. So I got to sit in every-- Downie: It morphed into something different-- Downie: So I got to sit in a bunch and play. B Biggs: And then Komla took them out in the country and played with a whole bunch of African drummers, and Gunnar sitting there trying to do the, like the apentemma drum. And this little seven year-- Downie: Well, I remember Gunnar playing in Komla’s-- B Biggs: Yes, yes-- Downie: Classes and things. You know, the performances that-- B Biggs: That's right. Downie: What was the name of the-- B Biggs: Sankofa? (Dr. Amoaku’s Artists in Residence group, which CSUSM granted a stipend to support the university mission of diversity through arts.) G Biggs: Sankofa. Downie: Sankofa. That you would do-- G Biggs: Well, I knew enough to be dangerous (laughter). But when he took us to his home in Ho (Ghana), which was way up in the northern Volta region, they had these people waiting for us when we drove in, it was like midnight. And all the kids were gonna dance and drum for us. And they asked me to sit in again. So I'm playing this one part, and it's like, I remember this eight-year-old little boy going, “Yes, no, no, no, no. Yes. That's it. No, no, no.” (laughter). So I'm being totally humbled to the roots. B Biggs: By an 8-year-old. (laughter) G Biggs: But I remember everything he told me. B Biggs: Everything, yeah G Biggs: I mean, so-- B Biggs: So, anyway, it was my sabbatical. But he was the superstar. G Biggs: No, I didn't get on national radio. B Biggs: I got on national radio but what, but they would not let him come in. They actually had people with guns-- G Biggs: Fifty caliber gunmen placements. B Biggs: Over I guess, you know in, for national radio in a country that, I mean, there really weren't bad things going on-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Well, if there, if there's a coup, the first thing-- B Biggs: They go-- G Biggs: --people do is they take over the national communicate television and radio. Downie: Oh, true. Yeah. G Biggs: So they had these guys with helmets and fifty caliber machine guns. And you were, if you weren't on the list, they'd point the gun at you to keep walking. B Biggs: Gunnar was like, “I think I'll wait in the car for you.” G Biggs: I moved back to the, yeah-- B Biggs: It was just a quick interview. But about-- G Biggs: It was a good interview! B Biggs: --tribal. And it was a, it was nice in the interview to be able to talk about some of the similarities between the indigenous library, libraries in Ghana and the tribal libraries here in the country. So it was-- G Biggs: You did that at the University of Ghana too, remember? You went in there and you talked with them? B Biggs: I think so. G Biggs: Yeah. I was in the car waiting again. (laughter) B Biggs: You were probably, yeah. Yeah. G Biggs: But you talked to people at the university. B Biggs: And I may have at the university of--where did we go? British Columbia (Canada), I think I talked about, had an opportunity to, one of the many you know talks was to talk about that there are indigenous libraries in Africa as well. So, it was fun. What else? But yeah, his story, I mean, he was “Mr. Superstar” there. Yeah, you were. Yep. Downie: Okay. So well, we'll move on out of Africa and come back to the states here. (laughter) Talk about anything, anything you did at the CSU level rather than campus level. Anything that you did? B Biggs: Lots of talks. I'm trying to think. I actually got involved in development at one point. Fundraising. Downie: I kind of remember that. You were doing some fundraising. B Biggs: And there was a group that was formed out of San Luis Obispo, on librarians who were involved in development. I'm trying to make, remember the name of that group? Do you remember that? G Biggs: No. What about the California State Library? Recognizing. B Biggs: Oh, yeah. I mean, but that's not the CSU. G Biggs: No, but under this career accomplishment thing. B Biggs: Yeah, well that was a big one. Was the, you know, the assessment thing. That came out of having a relationship with a woman I met through AILA (American Indian Library Association), American Indian. She went on to become the state tribal library coordinator. Susan Hanks, I don't know if you remember Susan's name. Downie: That name sounds vaguely familiar-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Which didn't exist before you. B Biggs: Yeah, she, well, yeah. G Biggs: Sorry. B Biggs: National. ALA (American Library Association). I actually went from being involved with ALA with more, much more with AILA (American Indian Library Association). I would go to ALA meetings. But it was all about, you know, going to the AILA meetings. Downie: But you were the first non-Indian president-- B Biggs: President, of AILA. Yeah. And that's Lotsee’s (referring to Patterson) fault. She pushed me down that road. (laughter) G Biggs: And you got an award for a Librarian of the Year for-- B Biggs: Yeah, it was-- G Biggs: What was that award? B Biggs: I don't know. The plaque is in there. Downie: I remember typing up some of the newsletters for AILA. Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: I was your support person with Arts and Lectures. B Biggs: That's right. Right. It, I think they still have the group, and I wanna think it's Librarians of Color, which I'm not that colorful. I am part Cherokee, but I don't, I don't talk about that to, what's it called? Joint Conference Librarians of Color Distinguished Service Award. Yeah. Oh, that was a, what was the one we did the talk at? In the--people from--that were the Whakatau (pronounced with a “ph” sound). G Biggs: Whakahau. B Biggs: That was their actual name. G Biggs: They were Māori. B Biggs: Māori. G Biggs: Māori. B Biggs: And, and it was- G Biggs: New Zealand. B Biggs: Yeah. Indigenous First Peoples from all over the world. And that was, that was through AILA, my part was through AILA, but it was with International Indigenous Librarians (Forum, advocacy group for indigenous peoples in library systems). Yeah. Downie: Your influence-- B Biggs: This is bringing back weird memories, God. That's where they put him (Gunnar) in charge of helping. And he had like these five Indian women that were telling him what to do and how to do it. And he was like, “Whatever you say.” Downie: Whatever you want. (laughter) B Biggs: Palomar Library Association. Wow. Downie: Because I know you were, you would've been involved early on. B Biggs: Way early on. Yeah. Yeah. You were too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, I edited the newsletter for ten years. B Biggs: Right, right. Downie: But that was also what opened my contacts to where when I first, when I finished my master's, Connie Constantino (former Library Director, United States International University) reached out to me. And I knew her through Palomar Library Association. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. So do they still exist? Downie: No. It became San Diego Region Library Association. And then a couple years later it folded. There, just, I think there were too many divergent interests going on. And again, it's kind of like students you know, when they graduate out, you know, you gotta have at least one driving force. And I think we came to a period where it just wasn't a driving force anymore. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Not sure how far and deep I was involved with-- Downie: I know (overlapping dialogue) I've seen some photographs of you at events. B Biggs: At events, yeah. Downie: Because I just saw Alice Rigg (former president of the Palomar Library Association)-- B Biggs: Wow. Downie: About a month ago. B Biggs: Carolyn's in touch with her. Downie: Yeah. Carolyn (Funes) got in touch with me to get in touch with Alice. And Alice is moving, downsizing and moving in with her son, and so she found a couple of old photograph binders of early-- B Biggs: Wow. And she was pretty involved, right? (Downie affirms) I mean, she was, yeah. Yeah. Downie: It seemed like the public librarians were much more involved in Palomar Library Association than the academics were. I think because we probably just, we were also having-- B Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) Had all these other--yeah. Downie: --to publish and research and everything else, where the public librarians, this was a way for them to see each other and be able to congregate. Cause a lot of them couldn't go to ALA and stuff like that. There just wasn't any funding for the public librarians. B Biggs: I hadn't thought about Connie Constantino in forever-- G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Downie: But yeah. Were you there when they started the scholarship? Okay. B Biggs: I don't think so. Downie: Okay, because I know they had this scholarship. B Biggs: But I remember someone getting it. Yeah. I'm trying to think who. Downie: Cause I, I haven't been able to track down the memories of how the scholarship got started. B Biggs: Does Alice know? Have you talked to her or? Downie: She wasn't feeling too terribly well that day, so-- B Biggs: Okay. Downie: --no, I didn't really push her for a lot of stuff, but yeah. I may reach out to her again. So yeah, bringing up those old memories. (laughs) B Biggs: I mean, PLA (Palomar Library Association), I hadn't thought about that in forever. Well, PLA is also Public Library Association. (Downie affirms) But I mean, but the Palomar-- Downie: But Palomar. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Downie: But well, anyway, let's move on to your post-retirement work, because you certainly haven't rested on your laurels, so to speak. You've continued a lot of your initiatives and then you've also gone and done Love on a Leash (nonprofit organization providing pet therapy). But, I know that your liaison work, a lot of it was after you retired from the library. B Biggs: Right. So, Karen Haynes asked me to serve as tribal liaison. She was upset I was retiring as soon as I did. I think I was only sixty. G Biggs: You did it. You bought time. So it was early sixty. B Biggs: I bought time. So, so I was young, but I was ready. I mean, putting in twenty-two years at that, you know, place that the university was at was like putting in forty-four (laughs) in terms of-- Downie: It was a lot of work. B Biggs: --just everything starting from scratch. So, I was ready to retire. She (Haynes) asked me if I would stay on and do, and I got to just pick my hours work from home. I was on the rez ninety percent of the time. But that's when the, the community task force was really underway. And that's when we started NAC. And I stayed on NAC until just this year. So, I retired in 2007 totally, like stopped being tribal liaison in 2007. Retired as faculty in 2004. I am still, I guess, on the California Indian Sovereignty--Culture and Sovereignty Center (CICSC ; founded in 2009). I keep trying not to be, but I'm on. And so the things I continue to stay involved with, I'm trying to help this new Mejaumi (Franco-Rosales) who is replacing Tish(mall Turner) or filling some kind of tribal projects role until they find a tribal liaison. So I'm doing that. The big work now is working with Donna (Uchimura), Uncle Henry's daughter, to get Uncle Henry's archives digitized and to make sure that the family has a great deal of input and oversight. And so that one, that one's happening right now. I understand that Donna has let Joely (Proudfit) know who she wants to be on this committee. When Joely said she wanted to have a committee in this meeting with Donna, my first thought was, “You know what committee means to us.” (laughs) I thought, “Oh my gosh.” So, walking across the bridge with Donna, I said, “You know, you involve family to the extent that you want them.” And so (noise of a phone chime) she's done that. And Sean, she wants Sean (Visintainer). And she knows I'm trying to take a step back, but it's the one thing I can't not do. I just can't, for Henry's sake, I can't abandon the family until that’s done. Downie: Well, that and all parties trust you. You know, and you have such a long-established history of doing what's right and-- B Biggs: Yeah, there is trust. Downie: --I don’t think everybody else see their--see the path forward. It's very important. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And I stay in touch. You know, we just visited Pala (reservation) a couple weeks ago. Walked in and there's Chairman (Robert) Smith sitting there, but these are, these are people now who are Casino rich. And you know, so it's a whole different world, but they're just still folks who remember Gunnar and I putting books on a cart and running it over from a little trailer into the new building. So, we still have a relationship with a lot of those libraries. Rincon (California), we recently went out and gave them materials on Luiseño songs. G Biggs: Do you hear Zuni? (family dog) B Biggs: Is she in her dream? G Biggs: She's chirping. (laughs) B Biggs: She's having a dream. (laughs) Downie: And you know, because I worked under you as support staff for what was supposed to be a seven-month appointment, if I remember correctly-- B Biggs: Yes. Downie: Well it turned into four years! B Biggs: I know. Downie: But I would go home at night and I would talk to Dennis and Delaine about what was going on. And I mentioned your work with the tribal libraries. And do you remember Delaine's book project, where she gathered books from-- B Biggs: Oh, yeah. Downie: --from her elementary school to donate? B Biggs: Yes. I forgot all about that. Wow. Downie: No. That she, she came up with that idea on her own and, you know-- G Biggs: That's too cool. Downie: --I was so proud of her for doing that. But you know, you have inspired things to go out beyond your own efforts, which I think is really important. B Biggs: Oh, that's beautiful. Tell her thank you. (Gunnar laughs) Downie: I will. B Biggs: And can she fix my iPhone? No. (laughter) She works for Apple, right? Downie: She does. B Biggs: Check it out. Somebody you wanna know (laughter). One beautiful overlapping of that, is we have gone out twice, maybe three times, with therapy dogs to the Little Feathers School at Pala Library. So there's the library, and now there's Little Feathers School. Downie: Good. B Biggs: And I've talked a couple of really good friends into--I’ll drive, and it's a long drive--and to go out and take therapy dogs to-- Downie: Oh, that’s wonderful. B Biggs: --tribal kids. Yeah. So that, I have to set it up with her again to do that. But that, so that's like both worlds coming back together again, which is-- Downie: Because-- B Biggs: --a beautiful-- Downie: You, you've mentioned this, but there is Love on a Leash, which seems to be a huge portion of your life now. I mean, you were president of the local, the local chapter, right? B Biggs: Right. And National. G Biggs: National. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And vice president for ten years, and still very, very involved. My issue now is just organizing too many events. I'm doing What Gives Your Life Meaning? (CSUSM initiative and campaign for palliative care) in a couple weeks. And I'm having to, I've learned to say no, kind of, to this sorority, that fraternity, that you know, I just can't do--So we've narrowed it down to four big events at Cal State San Marcos. And six libraries and two-- Downie: And you've got all those volunteers to organize with their dogs. B Biggs: Yeah. That's what's going on. Yeah. It's kinda-- Downie: Multiple sessions. Yeah. And it's admirable that everybody wants you, but there's also, you could have dogs on campus every day. I mean, if you really-- B Biggs: I would love to. Downie: --accommodated everybody who asked. B Biggs: Can't do it. Can’t do it. That was a hard one. And I'm having to step down from Cardiff Library because I have twenty minutes down there, and only had one kid to read to the dogs. So it's like they never got it off the ground, two years now. So, and that's hard. Gunnar knows, like, I don't know how to say no. (laughs) And learning to do that. But yeah, that's a, definitely a passion. And I love the university. I think that's the most important. Downie: Well, you do have your bench on the campus, it says-- B Biggs: That's right. (overlapping dialogue) He (Gunnar) calls me a bench! (laughs) Downie: --"I love this university,” I believe is what it says on it. B Biggs: Yes, it does. Yeah. Downie: Right next to the one with Dannis (Mitchell, deceased library employee). B Biggs: Yes, yes. (unintelligible) Yeah. Downie: So, I usually have a closing question. Because we've kind of been through my list here, but is there anything you can think about that, you know, or a culminating statement that you would want to say about the years you've had with Cal State? And you too Gunnar? I mean, you've, you've jumped in and reminded and brought up a few things, but-- B Biggs: I love that university, and I love what it gave me the opportunity to do in terms of the work with tribes, the work with Arts and Lectures. Owing books to, you know, I mean, I did work with patrons, but these other peripheral responsibilities are--run deep and are so meaningful to me. So I'm grateful for the opportunity. And even better to bring my dogs back. G Biggs: Yeah. B Biggs: That's just the best. (laughs) G Biggs: Well, for me, because I did take such a long time off from higher education, it is a home that I found. I got a bachelor's degree there that they let me design. It didn't exist before. I didn't know that was possible. The faculty there said, “You can do this.” I got a single subject California teaching credential there, and I actually taught there for three years as well. So, I consider it my academic home. I feel really at home out there. And I still know people that teach there, which is kind of cool. But it was very accepting to me, very flexible and of the highest quality. I mean, the, I almost said floundering. The founding faculty (laughs) came from such great places. They were really good teachers, researchers, and human beings. I was really just totally immersed in their lives and their subjects. So, it was really a nice place to finish up that part. For me. Downie: And I have to agree wholeheartedly with both of you. B Biggs: Aw. When you turn this (recording) off, I have one final story. Downie: Okay. (laughs) Alright, well I think we can end the interview at this point. So if you'll pass the phone over to me, I'll find the off button, wherever it is. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_2024-03-26.xml BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_2024-03-26.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Biggs, Bonnie, and Gunnar Biggs. Interview March 26, 2024. Description An account of the resource Bonnie Biggs was the inaugural Tribal Liaison and a Librarian Emeritus at California State University San Marcos. Gunnar Biggs has been a prominent figure in the musical environment in Southern California for over forty years, and is a retired music instructor from San Diego State University and Palomar College. In this interview, Bonnie and Gunnar recall the early history of CSUSM when it transitioned as the North County satellite campus for San Diego State University into CSUSM in 1989. Bonnie also discusses her academic and professional achievements, including her work as the university's Tribal Liaison. Bonnie and Gunnar additionally recall her sabbatical to Ghana, Ghanaian jazz music and musicians, visiting and working with tribal libraries in New Mexico, and Bonnie's most recent work with Love on a Leash. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-055 Subject The topic of the resource American Indian Library Association California Indians California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Tribal Liaison California State University San Marcos. University Library Libraries -- Ghana Jazz -- Ghana Jazz musicians -- Ghana Love on a Leash Patterson, Lotsee Rodriguez, Henry Nichols, 1919-2002 Tribal libraries -- New Mexico Tribal libraries -- Southern California Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-03-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bonnie Biggs Gunnar Biggs Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ghana New Mexico San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs Art and artists Community history CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Riccardo Savo Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Brian Bilbray OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Tijuana;San Diego;Borderlands;Politics;Congressman OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Bilbray, Brian. Interview April 3rd, 2023. SC027-056 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm Environmentalism and politics Politics and government--21st century Borderlands Mexican-American Border Region Water rights--United States Water rights--Mexico Metropolitan government Politics and government--20th century Environmentalism and politics--California--San Diego Environmentalism and politics--Mexico--Tijuana United States. Congress. House Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Tijuana ; San Diego ; Borderlands ; Politics ; Congressman Brian Bilbray Riccardo Savo 1.0:|19(17)|34(6)|46(17)|62(10)|76(5)|95(5)|111(17)|123(15)|139(3)|155(10)|171(12)|182(13)|195(5)|210(5)|223(3)|235(9)|246(5)|260(12)|273(4)|287(4)|300(13)|312(10)|325(15)|339(16)|353(6)|364(12)|376(5)|387(12)|399(5)|413(3)|425(13)|436(13)|448(12)|458(6)|473(12)|485(10)|504(6)|518(14)|529(16)|541(15)|554(4)|567(7)|579(14)|589(14)|603(5)|614(15)|628(9)|644(13)|655(16)|667(6)|680(3)|690(15)|701(13)|712(9)|724(9)|738(3)|752(3)|762(14)|777(8)|789(5)|803(3)|814(9)|827(6)|841(7)|855(13)|866(13)|881(8)|895(11)|905(16)|919(9)|932(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b761005e2c7ce7501e9da0e69bfc90a2.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Congressman Brian Bilbray and Riccardo Savo introduce themselves and discuss what it was like for Congressman Bilbray to grow up in San Diego's South County, next to the border with Mexico. Birthplace ; Childhood ; Mexico ; San Diego ; Coronado ; Imperial Beach 0 240 Beginning in Politics Congressman Bilbray discusses how he began his political career. Along the way, Congressman Bilbray explains that he had to navigate the political landscape in a way that was analogous to surfing. Politics ; Dana Rohrabacher 0 363 Accension from Mayor of Imperial Beach to House of Representatives Congressman Bilbray discusses the driving factors that led him to successfully run as a Republican congressman including his college degrees and experience. Congressman Bilbray also discusses his previous experience as a lifeguard prior to politics. Law Enforcement ; Lifeguard 0 639 First Term as a Congressional Representative - Environmental Policies Congressman Bilbray discusses how his early political experiences as a city and county politician provided him with the expertise to form environmental policy in Congress. Congressman Bilbray sponsored numerous environmental bills that had a significant impact on San Diego and South Bay. Smog ; Smog Reduction Act ; Environment ; Tijuana ; Borderland 0 1030 Navigating Environmental Groups and the Border Areas Congressman Bilbray talks about how he helped to create the Otay Mountain Wilderness area and how he worked with groups like Green Peace throughout his career. Congressman Bilbray also talks about how the international border can be an obstacle when trying to work with multiple groups and agencies. Otay Mountain Wilderness Area ; Otay ; Frotnera ; Border ; Borderlands 0 1840 Challenging Authority - Second Term in Congress Congressman Bilbray talks about how there is a responsibility to speak up when you see something that isn't right. He also says that just because someone in authority says you can't do something does not make it correct. This mentality directly led Congressman Bilbray to run for a second, non-consecutive, term in Congress. San Diego ; Federal Government ; Healthcare ; Science ; Air Resources Board 0 2184 Tijuana Sewage Management Congressman Bilbray discusses how he worked with multiple agencies and passed multiple bills to address the sewage crisis. Bob Simmons ; Environment ; Sewage ; Tijuana 0 2926 Working with Bob Filner Congressman Bilbray discusses how he worked with Bob Filner. Bob Filner ; Sexual Harassment 0 3032 Reaching Across the Aisle Congressman Bilbray talks about how bipartisan legislation is essential to getting things done in politics. bipartisan legislation ; Democrats ; Republicans 0 3371 Local Government and Ideal Changes in Imperial Beach Congressman Bilbray talks about what he would like to see happen in Imperial Beach to improve the lives of people living there. He also talks about the importance of proper consultation by subject matter experts and following facts when proposing legislation. Imperial Beach ; Politics ; Environment 0 3778 Being in the Right Place to Change Things Congressman Bilbray talks about the California REAL I.D. and how some of his legislation did not pass. Congressman Bilbray also talks about going against his own party to convince them to pass legislation. REAL I.D. ; Immigration ; 9/11 0 4210 Outro and End of Interview 0 Brian Bilbray is a former Representative in the Congress of the United States. He served as a Republican representative for the 49th district (now 53rd) in California from 1995 until 2001 and then again from 2006 until 2013. In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. Riccardo Savo: So, formality. Today is April 3rd, 2023. I am Riccardo Savo, a graduate student at Cal State San Marcos. I'm interviewing Congressman Brian Bilbray for the University Library Special Collections Oral [History Internship] Project. Mr. Bilbray, thank you very much for being here with me today. Brian Bilbray: Honored to be with you. Savo: No, it's definitely an honor and privilege here. I would just like to begin very broadly, if you could just, you know, tell me a little bit of background, a little bit about your background here in San Diego County. I understand that you're a Coronado native, and, you know, a lot of the issues that you ran as a politician concerned about the environment. How was your experience in Coronado? How did that affect your transition or your, your risk taking in politics Bilbray: For the record, I'm an Imperial Beach. Savo: Imperial Beach. Bilbray: I was born in Coronado, actually at North Island, which wasn't technically part of Coronado at that time. But when I was chairman of San Diego County, I had that part of North Island annexed to Coronado, so I could claim I was born in Coronado. But no, I was actually born and raised in Imperial Beach, a block from the Pacific Ocean. Two houses separated my childhood home, uh, and the Mexican border. I had to go about 50 yards, maybe 40, 35 yards to go to the Tijuana estuary. And that's where I played, beaches, literally, I had the luckiest thing in the world. I literally grew up on the edge. On the edge with Mexico, and the edge, with the Pacific Ocean. So when I talked to my, my cousins in Australia, I could always explain where I live, because anywhere in the world, you just say, “You know where the Pacific Ocean is?" and “You know where the border is between Mexico and the U.S.?” Well, right where they meet is where I live and I'm growing up. Savo: That's awesome. Bilbray: . My mother was an Australian tennis player and accountant, and my parents, um, there was a temporary use of a hotel for General MacArthur, and my parents met there, and my father was a naval officer who actually was from southern Alabama. A place called Monroeville, where To Kill a Mockingbird was written. And he went to an orphanage in Mobile and got into the Navy, and they actually met, and in 1944, my mother came to the United States as the first group of war brides. In fact, she was very proud that she was the first Australian war bride to get her citizenship. So interesting mixture. But that Australian background with a, with an American, a kind of working-class background, kind of made me who I am. Savo: You mentioned once in an interview that you compared surfing to politics. You know, if you wanna ride a wave, you have to take a risk. Could you speak to how those hobbies and, and that childhood background, how did that translate when you were running for [San Diego] city council? What, what… how would I say it? What, motivated you to, to join city council? Bilbray: Well, first of all. Savo: Especially at a young age, Bilbray: You know, surfing starting, I started surfing at third grade, and I'm, interesting story that, when I ran for the city council at 25, 24 [years old], there was a man that lived on my block who I asked him, if “You'd consider voting for me?” And he says, “I'll vote for you no matter what. I've watched you your whole life.” And he says, “I remember you dragging a balsa wood board over your shoulder, dragging the board to the beach and back every day, and you look like Christ going to the Calvary.” And he said, “if you were determined enough as a third grader to do that, I think you ought to go to the city council.” But, the surfing analogy in life is just so clear, it’s that you get out of it what you put into it, but you've got to invest the hard work. And you've got to basically, put yourself in a position where opportunity may come along. And so you're not guaranteed to catch any wave, but you're guaranteed you're never gonna catch a wave if you're not willing to get in the cold water, struggle against the waves, and then sit and wait for the wave at the right time, and then the execution. So, a lot of this opportunity, a lot of it’s perseverance. And one of the things about surfing that a lot of people don't understand is, unlike skiing and a lot of other things, you can't see what you're going to do. You have to imagine the wave breaking to get in the right spot. And so, a lot of this is having the imagination to perceive what is going to happen and be in the right place at the right time with the right talents and the right tools to be able to take advantage of it. And to be able to, you know, accomplish anything with it. And so that, in a little way, I think that applies to all life, but in politics, it just happens to be a little higher profile. Savo: Okay. Bilbray: Oh, by the way. -- Savo: Yes. Bilbray: One of the lines I always said to Dana Rorabacher, which was a guy from Huntington Beach. He would not endorse me for Congress until I went up to Huntington Beach and surfed with him. And he just said, then he said,” Why are you so much a better surfer than I am?” And I said, “Dana, I've been doing it a lot longer than you have, but you surf like your politics, you only go to the right. There's a whole left to a wave. So, if you're willing to just catch the good wave, sometimes you go to the left and sometimes you go to the right.” And I think he took the analogy appropriately [laughs] Savo: That’s great. So, I'm curious to learn about how you went from becoming mayor and then ascending to the House of Representatives. You know, you first represented the 50th district and the 52nd, I believe. Bilbray: 49th and then the 50th. Savo: 50th. My apologies. Could you talk about that ascent for me briefly, if you could? Bilbray: I actually got involved with politics, because I was a lifeguard. And the whole ocean was always very much a big part of my life. But being down there, the clash between law enforcement and the kids on the street, and you had drug dealing in Imperial Beach. But then the law enforcement almost approached it as if everybody who was longhaired and young was involved in this. And I actually got involved with getting groups together to work with the police and get the police to meet the kids and the kids. So that, you know, knowledge is the most important thing law enforcement has. And as a lifeguard, that gave me a good position of someplace where I could, um, that I was neither fish nor fowl. I was sort of in between the law enforcement and the kids on the beach. Bilbray: They were used to lifeguards being around. We weren't a threat. That ended up getting me involved with it. And, when I was 24 years old, actually was 23! I was appointed as a human relations commissioner by the city. And then at 24, I was asked after a rescue where I, had a girl around my neck and I had to do a in-water resuscitation on a young lady. In fact, I always remember how blue she was. I didn't, I really didn't believe we, I had a chance to save her. She was face down and I ended up resuscitating and going-- didn't get any response to her, in her vitals. But halfway to the hospital after the EMTs picked her up, she was… survived. What I didn't know at that time was, we do rescues, like a lot of rescues not in the water resuscitations like that, but we do a lot of it. Bilbray: And you never think about, it's just another rescue. But what happened this time was there happened to be a local newspaper photographer taking pictures of the beach, and he had a whole series of this rescue. So, then the city gave me a big award for saving it. And then people started saying, “He ever thought about getting involved in politics?” And my family had been involved in the formation of the city and a couple recalls. So, as a young, younger person. I sat through meetings and when my father died, my father died when I was in 10th grade. I kind of got mom into the political scene as a way to keep her busy as a high school student. And that sort of led to people thinking comfortable that they could try to talk this young, you know, 24-year-old running for the city council. And I was elected to the city council just after my 25th birthday, a couple months after my 25th birthday. Savo: Wow. And I'm assuming that's like probably around March? Bilbray: April. Savo: April. Oh. So, then… Bilbray: The elections were, separated in those days. And I mean local elections were able to be placed any time they wanted to. Savo: Okay. So this had all happened after the fact that you had attended Southwestern and everything? Bilbray: Yeah. I actually, what happened was, I was a history major with a theater arts minor. Like I say quite freely, I wanted to be a history professor, but I couldn't pull the academics, so I got stuck in Congress instead. But the theater, really the history background with a theater minor really did help me in politics. I mean, in fact, there's a lot of camera crews for TV stations here in town that always, still, jack me up for telling them, “Well, now do you want to get this angle of the light?” [laughs] I would set up the shots because I was used to it. But I'm, I think that it helps to some degree to understand presentation. And not in debate. I think a lot of [the] problem [with] people in politics thinks debates, what's really important Message is a lot more than arguing. Savo: It's all about the understanding, the knowledge, the whole presentation as well. But, you know, it's, it's having that mindset or having that expertise. Bilbray: Yeah. Savo: So I'm curious to learn about your first term as a congressman in the House of Representatives. You authored, sponsored numerous pieces of legislation that not only pertained to the local environment, but also to our border. You introduced the Border Smog Reduction Act of 1998. Could you tell me a little bit about that? How were you able to garner support within the House to do so? And did you work with other local representatives to achieve that? Bilbray: Well, first really, my years in local government gave me a real background that most people in Washington don't have. I served on the California Coastal Commission. I was able to, I served on the Air Resources Board for the state of California, the notorious CARP working with some of the best scientists in the world. And legislators don't have this kind of exposure. I served on the Air District for San Diego County and so, a lot of the technical stuff that you pick up in local administration, you would never be able to have in almost any other field. And so I was, I had worked as a mayor because of the Tijuana sewage problem. I had, you know, 45 million gallons of raw sewage pouring into my city in 1980. And I was aware of that. Bilbray: But the Air Resources Board and the Air District, I sponsored the Smog Reduction Act because you had a situation to where the federal government was requiring that if somebody worked in a non-attainment area, an area where it's polluted like L.A., San Diego, that if you commuted into a non-attainment area, you had to have your car smogged in that non-attainment area. So that was a law. So somebody coming from humor or something would have to do it. Well, the same government that was requiring that the locals do this, were controlling the international border, and waving people in every day that didn't have their car smogged. And so we ended up in a situation in south San Diego, uh, the South Bay that you had Imperial Beach that might have had a real pollution problem when it came to water, but we had the cleanest air in San Diego County. Bilbray: And, because we didn't get hit with what they call the Catalina eddy, where L.A. smog would come out during the night and then blow down on North County and pollute the northern part. Our air, Imperial Beach was very clean, but two miles away, three miles away at San Ysidro we had the dirtiest spot in the county. And that was because of the traffic, the operation of the border, and the fact that we weren't getting the smogging going down. And I got exposed working on that problem. I got exposed to groups like Honeywell's Remote Sensing, where they were identifying that the stop and go traffic was a major pollution problem. And I mean, right to this day, you have no one pushing to have stop signs taken out. Bilbray: We’re talking about doing all these billion-dollar projects and all these great little environmental projects but, just going to traffic circles instead of traffic lights, going to yield signs instead of stop signs, huge reduction in air emissions, and nobody talks about it. It's totally blind. But because I worked on that border smog as a local government guy, I then was in the position that when I got to Washington, I knew the problem, I knew the technicalities and, and pushed that. And what's interesting about the Border Smog Reduction Act, we did not have one Mexican national complain about it. Not one! The people that complained were Americans who were registering their cars out of the country to avoid the deal. And it was U.S. citizens that said, “Well, I'm a U.S. citizen. I have the right to do this.” And all of this, you know, when you do these things, the learning curve is so steep, you learn so much by just making the effort to move it forward. Savo: Hmm That’s very interesting. I didn't know that it was mainly U.S. nationals complaining about this bill. I assume that there would've been some repercussions from the Mexican end. But, I'm interested, how that was perceived after the bill was passed. Were there any political fallout from that? Bilbray: No, you would think that, you think that people, you know, everybody's got a hypersensitivity. Um, like I, I was told by Greenpeace one time that they don't wanna look punitive to a nation of color. So you can't apply the normal standards to certain areas because people then have a hypersensitivity of looking to be outraged about it. I didn't sense very much attack at all. I think that everybody's gotta remember the greatest victims of that problem. The only people that were impacted more than San Ysidro, was Tijuana. And, a lot of that border pollution issue is the fact that the most vulnerable and the poorest are the most impacted. And that isn't discussed about very much. And so, uh, no. I'm sure that there might have been a lot more people upset, but really, it was very focused on the fact that the problem was something that just common sense. That if you want to have the opportunity to go to school in San Diego County, if you want the opportunity to work in San Diego County, with those opportunities, go environmental responsibilities. And that nexus that connection is essential for not only our environmental policy, but for our whole quality of life. Bilbray: You can't maintain any standard if you're going to find excuses to not, maintain a minimum standard. Savo: You mentioned groups like Greenpeace. Um, how, how were you able to reach across to these groups? Or how were you able to be in connection with these groups if they were not so willing to back your bill or not so willing to help the crisis? It seems like they were more counterproductive. It seems like they were more-- Bilbray: Well, they can be on situations like that. But when I did the. I created the Otai Mountain Wilderness Area. And in Washington, because you have certain mindsets in Washington. But, in Washington, when I proposed that we were going to have a wilderness area that had roads in it, you would've think that I was committing the greatest sacrilege in the world because that they couldn't understand, “Well then why have wilderness [area], if you have wilderness [that] is all about roads?” And, actually, it was the local Sierra Club that helped me carry the message to Washington and to the National Sierra Club that without the roads, the wilderness area would be totally destroyed. And they said, “Why?” I said, because the border will be totally out of control. And you have people that had no life experience of the Frontera and what goes on in the frontier. Bilbray: I mean, you're looking at somebody that, when I was 10 years old, walked from Imperial Beach all the way down and, you know, crossed into Mexico and came back. My mother actually caught me as I was crossing. And before she passed away, I said, how did you know to come catch me down there? She goes, “Well, I went to the park and across the street they said, ‘Oh, Brian went with this 10-year-old and, this 12-year-old, and he's going to Mexico.’” And so, she drove down and caught me. But, that kind of, you know, growing up with that environment, you sort of go back and forth about how you approach this. When it comes to, there's just. It's just astonishing how with the entire Frontera area, people are intimidated by it. Bilbray: [They] are absolutely intimidated. And it's so alien to them. I mean, to this day, you have people come visit you at your house, and you can walk out of my front doorstep and see the bull ring at La Playa [in Tijuana]. And Tijuana looks down on Imperial Beach. We take that for granted, and people just don't comprehend that. And I think that a lot of this kind of stuff is, people are intimidated. Even environmentalist groups and NGOs are very intimidated by it. And I remember there was a lady who served with me on the County [of San Diego] Board of Supervisors, Susan Golding, who, was doing something about the border. And she got totally attacked because she said something that somebody was always sensitive about. And she walked in my office very upset and said, “What's going on?” Bilbray: And I said, it's a landmine. As soon as you get around that border region, people are looking at one side or the other, and it's totally different. And don't get upset about it. And they're very uncomfortable about the border. But see, when you grow up in Imperial Beach, when you grow up in San Ysidro, Chula Vista, you know, at least 20% of the kids that we went to school with lived in Tijuana. I mean, which came in handy when you were in high school because you go down there, and you knew somebody's uncle owned one of the bars. You know, it was just one of those things that we were culturally, crossing. But that is, we take it for granted. And that's a big mistake for us taking it for granted. The ability for people to comprehend the trans-frontera culture is so tough for 'em. I mean, that line gets in there. When you try to explain to 'em, and any of us that grew [up] on the South Bay know, you can know where Mexico starts and where the U.S. starts by the color of the lights. And we just sort of think about that. Well, it's something that just doesn't happen through osmosis. It just happens to be our neighborhood. Savo: You mentioned that's a lot to take in. You mentioned this transnational community, this area that IB [Imperial Beach]is located in. Would you say that this community that's being formed here, did it have any effect on the development in IB [Imperial Beach]? Because I know, there's a lot of different propositions that you wanted, recreational that you wanted to… Bilbray: You had, you had. Let me tell you the transformation and anybody that grew up in the South Bay understands it. Where else in America, when do you have to drive through two other cities to get to the other part of a city? Savo: That’s true. Bilbray: Physically cannot go on. A lot of people, we take it for granted, but the extraordinary situation that happened with the major wealth in the city of San Diego, using their political power and influence to annex a huge area in our neighborhoods, and it was for their land development schemes. You had major investors from San Diego City buy in an area called Otai Mesa along the border. And they bought all the land around a place called Brownfield, and they were going to make the international airport there, and they were gonna make a fortune. That major investment, they annexed, and cut a deal, so that they could annex down a waterway, 300 feet wide, down the middle of San Diego Bay, uh, negotiated with cities not to claim their old title. Bilbray: So, they could sneak down here and then annex an appendage down along the border so they could control the border crossing at San Ysidro, and they could take the airport and move the airport down there and make a fortune. They used that to stop any development in the estuary or in the valley because they wanted that all free and clear for landing jets over the top of it. ’Cause they didn't wanna see the problems we had at, at Lindbergh Field. All of that was part of something that those of us in the South Bay didn't even know what was going on. And the annexation of San Diego into the South Bay was a major intrusion. I mean, the south, the South Bay part of San Diego is nothing, less than a colony. And I watched that, I watched it in many little ways, but the manifestation that I try to explain to people so they can have a visual is that when you drive from Imperial Beach and leave Imperial Beach and go into San Diego, between the freeway and Imperial Beach. You'll notice that there's not one billboard in Imperial Beach. Bilbray: But as soon as you hit San Diego, it’s billboard after billboard after billboard. And I know because I was county supervisor for Point Loma and for Imperial Beach, a lot of, most of those billboards were shipped down from the wealthy areas of Point Loma because you had a local council member who want to get it off of Rosecrans [Street in Point Loma]. So, the deal was you take it off of Rosecrans and we'll let you put it down in Imperial Beach in the South San Diego area. And literally using this as a dumping ground. You see hotels being converted to halfway houses in the coastal zone. There's no place else in America where that allows. You've got nowhere else in America under the EIS, the Environmental Impact Statement, could you cite a Home Depot or a Walmart, legally, anywhere with only one access point. You always have to have at least two, if not three. Well, down in the south San Diego, you not only have a Walmart, you have a Walmart and a Home Depot with only one access point. And that intersection is what they call a Schedule E. It is dysfunctional most of the time because they've created that. Somebody made a lot of money on it, and the environmental standards were abandoned because these are just poor people of color. And so, yeah. Don't get me started on this, but the whole concept has been a real problem. Savo: You you're very passionate about the subject and I'm very curious to know how...were, as a congressman, how were you able to explain to your, or illustrate to your constituents that you were that passionate about this, about what was happening in an IB. Obviously today, in today's day and age, we live in an area of transparency, right? Were we're trying to voice our message and our concerns. What, what was your outreach to the community and to the district? Bilbray: I had an advantage that because I had served as mayor and county supervisor, I had shown my passion for it before I was ever a congressman. In fact, I got a reputation of being a little crazy. And that, uh, but the situation was crazy. It started very early in my first term as mayor, where the county health department, which let me just say on the side. The County of San Diego has probably the best health department in the entire country. The standard, of quality, the science is second to none and it really helped me when I went to Washington. One of my greatest, I had resources, I had people I could call, I had people who were so far ahead of the curve on air and in health issues that were great. Bilbray: I had actually started over the issue that the federal government came in and condemned half of our city for a habitat preservation. It had actually been a big section had been condemned by the United States Navy called it the Tijuana Sluice Preserve. And that was the preserve, the right of the Navy to fly their helicopters over our city. And the wind. When I was mayor, we had major vector problem, mosquitoes. And we had salt water, late every year about September, the high tides, big king tides, and we get into it will cause [a] major bloom of mosquito larva. And I actually had mothers bringing their children into a city council meeting and taking their kids' shirt off and saying, “150 mosquito bites! We need to do something about this.” And they were right. When I meet with Fish and Wildlife, Fish and Game, I literally was told straight to my face that “Mayor, that's a sign of a healthy environment.” Bilbray: And that's when you start saying the system is too insulated from reality. And when the county proposed to go down and spray, and they show that they were using environmentally responsible, they were distillates that were very light, [a] thing called Golden Bear. You had Fish and Wildlife talking about diesel. Diesel hadn't been used for 60 years. And the scientists at the county showed, here's the environmentally responsible way to do it. We can kill the larvae. The thing disperses within two hours doesn't impact the, the vertebrates and whatever. And you had somebody in the position of power at Fish and Wildlife said no. In fact, they said, "If the county goes down there, we'll arrest everybody who's spraying.” And when they said that, I announced an a press release and did a press conference and said, good, because the mayor of Imperial Beach is gonna be the one spraying, and you can arrest the mayor for doing this. Bilbray: And then we can, we can stand up in front of court and let the system go. And I think a lot of that is the street sense I learned in a working-class neighborhood that, just because somebody in authority says something, doesn't mean that it's right. And that, you basically know that, you don't argue it in the streets. You take it to the court where it's not their turf. So one thing you'll learn is never fight somebody on their turf. Find a neutral ground. And the neutral ground would've been the courts. And I was coached on how to operate the equipment. I let the media know I was gonna do it. And sure enough, within a few days, the Fish and Game, Fish and Wildlife reversed their position and allowed it to happen. That shouldn't have to happen! And I'd like to think that that would, that is just because it happens everywhere. But frankly, I think there's a big double standard and the mentality of how people approach that. So, I learned to push the system right from there. And that led to issues with sewage and everything else, is that the system needs to be pushed. That's how you keep it honest. Savo: You talk about how you have to sort of break rules to achieve the ends. And, um… Bilbray: Well, let me clarify. Not, well, not needing to break the rules, but when somebody is making up rules that are not the law, then you not only have a right, you have a responsibility to call it down. And I guess that's the big deal. I'll tell you something. The Simon and Garfunkel song, [The] Sound of Silence is about the sin of being quiet. And I think we always stick to the edict that it's better to remain silent and somebody think that you're stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. I think it's always safer in our society to remain quiet. Um, I think that is as Simon and Garfunkel will say is a cancer, and it doesn't do anybody a service, especially those that are overreaching or whatever that need to be called down. Bilbray: So no, I think the biggest issue that I've always said is that, like a lifeguard, you couldn't stop me from going in the water and rescuing, I call it the tennis ball and the Labrador syndrome. When somebody like a 9/11 [September 11th attack], somebody like myself, when you see somebody in trouble, there's some of us that just have to go. It's just instinctive. And I call it the Labrador and the tennis ball because when you throw a tennis ball off the end of a pier, that Labrador is over the water before he realizes what he's done. It's that instinctive. And, I think that there's just some of us that are hardwired that way. And this one definitely has gotten me in trouble in politics. But I think it's probably one of the biggest things that I would never change in the world. I'd rather get in trouble for speaking out than allow things to happen because I found it safer to remain silent. Savo: Well that's great perspective because I was actually about to ask you, you have a very unique political story in Congress. Were you reelected for a second term, a non-consecutive term. Was there an energy that reignited your motivation to run again? Was the stagnation of the environmental concerns in Imperial County or Imperial Beach the reason that you decided to run again? Bilbray: There was, across the board there were so many opportunities in the environmental, strategies that are abandoned and feel, so, see. I introduced a bill to eliminate the mandate on California to use ethanol. I had the Lung Association come in and literally challenged me that I didn't care about people dying of cancer. My father died of cancer. Lung cancer. But they were going on a certain agenda. And I knew from serving on the Air Resources board that we had found at the Air Resources Board that ethanol was not only not a good, environmental option, but it was a pollutant. And to this day, the federal government does not do total testing on auto emissions because they want to hide the evaporative emission problem with ethanol because there is a huge Archer, Daniels, Midland involvement and involvement in nonprofits that claim to care about it, that Archer, Daniels, Midland, it's good for their business. Bilbray: And I don't mind 'em doing that, but I mind them wrapping themselves in [an] environmental blanket and saying, “God wants you to give me your money.” I call them environmental Jimmy Swaggers. And that doesn't follow the science. And so many people that you'll hear, “Stick to the science, stick to the science,” will abandon the science, not address stationary sources like inappropriate traffic management if we want to reduce air pollution. But the ethanol issue was one that the Air Resources board came to me and asked me to carry. And I knew about it because I just finished serving with them. That kind of thing, I think is essential to do. And I think for the credibility of those of us working on environmental problems, we have to do that. You can't pick and choose, you know, well, I want this one because it's convenient to do and not go the other way. Bilbray: And, I mean, I drove a natural gas car back in the eighties, not many people were talking about that and the flex fuel that you get into it. But, the, the challenge is trying to keep the science up front. Environmental activism is not a theology, it's not a religion. You don't have dogma. It's the best science you have at the time. And when the science tells you that what you thought was factual is not you not only have a right to do that, you have a moral obligation. I mean, it's so hypocritical to claim you're out to save the world, but you kind of ignore the facts when they don't fit you right. And to this day, to this day, I'm looking at what's happening here in California. Traffic Management, a lot of this kind of stuff that we're working on, nobody wants to talk about because it just doesn't fit the doctrine right now because it's sort of what's fashionable. Tijuana sewage was not fashionable. I built a reputation on that because I had no other choice. And right now, we still have that problem. It's worse today than it's ever been. Savo: So--Bilbray: Don't let me get you off your line. Savo: No, no, no. I just wanna make sure that I Bilbray: follow it up. Savo: I love, I love everything that you're-- Bilbray: Double back on it and get anything I passed that if I didn't hit it. What was your real question? Let me try to get right onto it. Savo: No, I was actually gonna ask if you could elaborate on some of the bills that you had authored, co-sponsored to address the sewage crisis. 'Cause you had two propositions to address the crisis. One, which was the expansion of the South Bay the wastewater treatment plant. And the other was a, uh, I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing it here, Bagua project. Bilbray: Bagua. Well, first of all, one of the things is make sure that the laws follow the science. And one of the things I got involved with that I got attacked for being anti-environment is [to] eliminate the secondary mandate [Secondary treatment of water through the quality control process] at Point Loma. And this is where people, you know, just get so frustrated that they care so much that they turn their brain off. They're leading with their heart and obviously, secondary is better than primary. So why wouldn't we go to secondary? And the fact is, is that it was lucky that there was a physician, I mean a lawyer who, named Bob Simmons. And he actually was just absolutely sharp on the line. And a lot of us, the line was always said that he could see it clearly, even though he was blind, that the law was hurting the environment. Bilbray: And what happened was he had run into the environmental impact report for going to secondary at Point Loma, they went through all the assessments from the environmental point of view, and they said that, “Because we're in this…” the outfall had been taken so far out to sea, was under three [thermoclines], the current of the Japanese current was dissipating. And, and the ocean was assimilating, that there was no net degradation of the sewer outfall at what they call advanced primary, about 89% of all solids taken out to about 94%. And then they looked at, okay, we're going to build, do this, do this, do this. And when they looked to go to secondary, the environmental impact report and the EIS, the environmental impact statement said, the building, the plants and doing all of that, will cause more environmental damage than anything that advanced primary was doing. Bilbray: So the answer to a problem was worse than the problem. And you had people that say, “We don't care. Secondary is the standard, is the law.” And Mr. Simmons talked to me about it, and he was right. And I took it to Congress and said, when an environmental law hurts the environment, it's being implemented wrong. No one passes an environmental law with the intention to hurt the environment. And, so here you had the scientists gave us a report and everybody wanted to ignore it because it meant that we had to go back and rethink an agenda. And what happened was, is that the Activated Sludge Mandate was meant for in-water, freshwater inland rivers and lakes where dissolved oxygen is a big deal. But in the open ocean, dissolved oxygen is plentiful because with so much action in the ocean, that they were taking something that was meant for ponds, rivers, and, small estuaries, freshwater estuaries and trying to apply it to the open ocean. Bilbray: And it hurt the environment. So, [I] actually had Donna Fry attack me for, well, that was because she meant well, but she was, she was ignorant about the situation. In fact, I think the history shows eventually she ended up changing her position too. That along with the, you know, we were talking about some of the other issues on the Tijuana situation. The Bagua [project] was recognizing that the problem was that Mexico did not have the problem. And I'll just tell you this, I have the pleasure of meeting every year with members of the Congress in Mexico and astonishing with all the talk about how people, we are neighbors of Mexico, how few members of Congress actually would go to these meetings. And once a year we meet in the U.S. or meet in Mexico and we talk. There was a gentleman who represented Tijuana in the Congress. Bilbray: And after the meetings, whatever, over a couple beers, he made a comment to me and he says, “Brian, your problem is that it's not our problem.” [He] says, “Your problem is to figure out how to make it our problem.” I said, what do you mean? He says, “You realize that when we dump the sewage, we don't have to pay for the chemicals, we don't have to pay for the pumping, we don't have to pay for the maintenance. You know, it just goes away. And what you gotta do is figure out how to make it our problem.” Well, one way we make it their problem, and the only way that problem is ever gonna be addressed, is when Mexico and Tijuana needs that gallon of sewage to turn into their next gallon of drinking water. And Bagua was a way of being able to do that in a third world country. Bilbray: And that was to get Tijuana on a total recycling program. Where they absolutely had to depend on recycling to be able to provide the water they needed for their country. I mean, for their city. And the concept was that we weren't going to send money into a third world country like we're doing, and we are gonna do again, because what happens is the money gets diverted to other places. A good example is when we first built the Banderas treatment plant in Mexico. I knew the engineering on that, I was in the negotiations in 1985 in Mexico City. Mexico wanted to get a grant to bring a million and a half acre feet of Colorado water to Tijuana through Otay Mesa, Mesa de Otay. Bilbray: And so we were looking at that plan. What we recognized is that, we were gonna send water down there, and the source of the pollution that pollutes our estuaries and our beaches actually comes from the United States. Because without that water, there would not be sewage flowing into the United States. So then their line was, we can't support this unless you can guarantee that this water's not gonna come back polluted, in 1985. And, the entire concept was we tried that, we were looking at that. And when they built the Banderas plant, it just shows you the little corruption that gets involved in these things. And it's not, and you know, if you, if you see the details, you kind of start understanding better why you have these in third world countries. They were open ponds and they had a thing called an aqua lift. Bilbray: And the aqua lift was a tube that air would be pumped in. And it, the aqua lift pumps the water by the bubbles coming up, draws it in. And the Jetco program with the aqua lifts that were engineered for these ponds had converging turbines. So, one turbine would turn one way, the other one would turn the other way, and as the bubble went up, it had all these turbines going there and dissolved the oxygen into the water so much better. And that raised it really up [oxygen levels]. So that was, and when we did the plan, that was all in the engineering. When they went to purchase it, somebody went over to Mexico and said, “Look, we've got the aqua lift and it's only 20% of the costs of these Jetcos. These Jetcos get patents. We've figured out how to do it without it being so expensive.” Bilbray: What they had was a tube with baffles. Now, what happened was it only had 20% of the dissolved oxygens that the other one had. So, the entire plant’s were only a quarter, you know, of what they planned on. Because they had changed this one component. And some people say, “Well, you can't expect them to do that.” Getting back the recycling is where we've got to get it done. And by Agua you have a private company bonded in the United States in Mexico, and they do not get paid for building anything, for digging anything. They only got paid for per gallon they treated, they would then be paid for that. So, outcome-based environmental strategy, and that's one of the things that I'm absolutely an advocate for is we've gotta get back to the concept that the outcome is what matters. Bilbray: You can build all these plants, you can do all these regulations, you can do all these things in environmental strategies, but if the outcome doesn't reflect your goals, then you not only have a right but a responsibility to change this. The regulations are useless And if, it doesn't work out. One of my biggest frustrations working with the Republicans in Congress was they could not see, and John Boehner, I tried to tell 'em and trying to get people to understand there are environmental regulations and you guys only see it as being bad for business. I can show you where it's bad for the environment. It's some of the worst stuff is done in the name of the environment. And so many of my Republican colleagues couldn't just get around, you know, just didn't see that as being important. I thought it's essential! Bilbray: It's the one place you could get the left and the right working together if they're willing to, you know, turn their brains on and open their eyes. And the Bagua was, the whole strategy was get there. Bagua was attacked because somebody was gonna make money off of cleaning up the sewage. And what's sad, you have nonprofits, you have corporations making money off the problem, but not solving the problem. And I actually watched them dismember a package that was put together with a Democrat and myself, [Congressman and former San Diego Mayor] Bob Filner and myself. And believe me, Bob Filner was no joy to work with. In fact, even the Democrats were shocked that I could work with him. But it was because, you know, you play the hand that the voters deal you and Bob was the the congressman from the area. And we worked out this way that says, these guys don’t get one cent unless they treat it, and they only get what they treat. Bilbray: And that was attacked because it was private operation. And people said, “That's immoral to have private companies doing these kinds of works.” Well, ladies and gentlemen, every project in Mexico is done by private contractors. And that's the naivete of people in the United States. Not taking the time to culturally understand that the Frontera is a different world. And that's where we get back to this issue of, we take things for granted here and other people just cannot comprehend it. It’s a quite unique experience we have by growing up on the Frontera. So, it paid off on that. Bagua was killed, and by people that now are crying, “Why has the problem gone from 45 to 55 million gallons of raw sewage pouring in every day?” Savo: Wow. You mentioned working with Bob Filner and the absolute, I don't want paraphrase here, but the absolute nightmare must have been to work and to kind of piece together this bill. How, how, [I’m] trying to phrase the right question here. Bilbray: Oh, lemme say Bob, Bob wasn't bad for me because I was on my home turf. Bob Filner was a carpetbagger. Okay. He, and I don't mind people come in and go back and forth, but, he ran in the South Bay because the South Bay was vulnerable. You realize that Juan Vargas is the only other congressman that ever represented the South Bay that was from the South Bay? Except for myself. That's an indictment to the process. But Bob came in, I had worked with Bob when he was a council member, worked with him before I went to Congress and before he went to Congress. And so there was relationships there that, again, that local government gave me a big advantage. I mean, his wife actually worked for me when I was chairman of LAFCO [San Diego County Local Agency Formation Commission], when I was at the county. And she was the director. And so, you know, relationships do matter, you know, human to human. And Bob knew that I knew his district better than he did. And I think he gave me more respect than I've seen him give anybody else. Not that he couldn't go unglued sometimes. Savo: I mean, you talk about these networking skills that you've developed in the county and then you obviously exercised it in the Congress. Could you speak a little to how you reach across the aisle when it came to these issues? You mentioned that you always have to look not only to the right, but you also have to look to the left. How did you find that goldilocks zone? How did you…? Bilbray: You pick up the tool that you need to get the job done. I actually had people attack me. [Congressman] Randy Cunningham hated Filner, hated that I was working with him. I actually had, you know, Republicans say, and I had reporters say, “You got Bob Filner on 80% of your legislation, why'd you do that?” And I said, because if I've got Bob Filler on my legislation, I got every left-wing crazy voting for me except Maxine Waters, you know? And so, I understood it, but growing up in my family I'm always used to that. My cousin was the congressman from Las Vegas, Democrat, Harry Reid's best friend. Harry Reid carried my bills. And they, you know, the concept that party line should be a barrier is absolutely absurd. And for those of us that are willing to cross the aisle, it's a real advantage. Bilbray: I mean, I prided myself on a lot of issues. In fact, the day I was sworn back into Congress, I made a gesture for a big reason. I was one of twenty-seven people in the history of the country that had come back from a different district. I purposely, when I gave my acceptance, at being sworn in. I did not stay on the Republican side of the aisle. There's two podiums, Democrat and Republican. I crossed over onto the Democrat side and I did my acceptance from the Democrat side. And there's an issue that you call in theater, they call violating your aesthetic distance. You're violating the presidium. You are-- like theater in the round, you're going into the audience. And they don't have the security of being away and sort of safe. And I did, I violated that aesthetic distance by moving into the Democrat side Bilbray: so I could talk to them personally one-on-one, in their face. Not from over here in the Republican corner. And that is a technique, but I think that it should, you know, people should use it more often. If people are safe hiding in their corners, you got an obligation to go pry 'em out. And, you know, Bob was obviously a real challenge. And he had a lot of his, you know, I worked with people in Congress and there's a lot of demons in Congress. But you know, who was it? You know, Plato said that, “Those who should rule won’t.” And I'm saying, look, normal people don't get involved with politics. So you get stuck with those of us that will. I actually had a gentleman named Allen UK, [the] man who gave me the idea of carrying the bill to bring the, the Midway into the county. Bilbray: And he wanted to get involved with politics. And what happened was so interesting is he ended up running against me. We ran against each other to replace Cunningham in the 50th. But he came to me and asked me, and gave me a compliment. And he says, “You are somebody that'll tell me what, what is the secret of being successful in politics? You've done it since you were a kid, Brian.” And, he says, “What do I need to do to be successful?” And I said, “Well, Allen, are you into pain?” And he says,” Oh, I don't mind it.” I said, “No, no, Allen, are you into it? That this is like surfing a big wave in cold water. This is like playing football, you know, you've got to be into it. You've gotta, you've gotta, you've gotta love hitting people and getting hit. Bilbray: Normal people don't do this kind of thing.” And you've gotta, I picture it as this must be how women approach childbirth. This must be important. Nobody would do anything that hurts this much if it wasn't important. And that, you know, that's why normal people usually don't get into politics cuz it's counterintuitive of everything. We're not, but we should be reflecting. But I think that there's a whole lot of good people in the game. There's a whole lot of people that are in the game for the wrong reason. And the trouble is the people that are affected by people in Washington and local government. Don't, man, people grossly underestimate the influence of local government. Most important stuff is the council mayor. And, when bad people get in there, it's the weak and the vulnerable to get hurt the most. And they get it from places that you wouldn't even think about it. Savo: Going back to about the local government and, you know, we're talking about that the federal government's kind of the problem to the solution. It's very counterintuitive. It's not, it's not the actual problem solver, it's the problem itself. What would you, what would you like to see change in Imperial Beach in terms of the structure or in terms of the environmental concerns? What do you think would probably be the most, beneficial, not outcome, but the most beneficial factor to help? Bilbray: We look, I had the privilege of serving in many different levels of environmental administration. Air Resources Board is the most aggressive, most successful environmental agency in the history of the world. They are equated to being Nazis because of a lot of stuff. And you get involved with stuff that you never would dream. I mean, I spent, I knew I'd reached the epitome of my political career when we spent three days on underarm deodorants. Okay. But I also watched Air Resources Board do the political moonwalk and backpedal so fast when they were talking about outlawing two-cycle chainsaws and then all the lumberjacks showed up at a meeting. But that application of people from different backgrounds, but the biggest key there is so essential. But having a scientific group to advise them and having that kind of interplay between people that are experienced in the field and those who are making the policy decisions and the flexibility, [it] really works into a large degree. Bilbray: But that can become out of control too. That can become tyrannical. I think the, the biggest one is looking at the difference between the Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act. The Clean Water Act is process based. You will treat this to this level, you will do this, this, this, and this. And then if you do this, it's okay If you pollute, you just do this. And we get into it. The Clean Air Act said if you've got dirty air, you figure out, you put together a plan to address this and bring it forward to us and show that you're gonna do it, and then we'll monitor you. But you'll do it, and we'll give you the flexibility to solve it and to solve, to take care of it. But, there's no limit of what you have to do. Bilbray: And if you don't do it, you lose all your interstate transportation funds, you have a hammer. That outcome-based environmental strategy is so much more advanced, and it's astonishing in so many places that we're still locked into process base. And the process base, I think a lot of it is, you can pick winners and losers there. You go to electric cars and you know who's gonna win in electric cars. And you had, you had Boone Pickens trying to get, um, you know, trucks lined up on natural gas and nobody gave a damn when Mr. Pickens was saying it. And, that you've, you've gotta say where are you gonna go with your reductions and where you're gonna go with your strategies. And that's where I just really think we fall down. Bilbray: It's so much easier for a regulator just to say, you treat to this, and then I can walk away with it. Tijuana sewage, the Clean Water Act, was an advantage. But people who claim to be environmentalists blew it up because they thought they were gonna go clean it up by getting the secondary. By not being a secondary, you then had this situation like we have with Point Loma, where you have a consent decree where they have to do this, this, this, this, this. Not in the law. Okay. If you're not going to go to secondary, you have to do all kinds of other things like recycling water up at La Jolla. All the recycling program was all part of this deal that the lawyer from the Sierra Club worked with me on. But if we went to secondary, like we did at um, in Mexico, the Mexican plant at the international treatment plant, then once you go to secondary, you're free and clear. Bilbray: You don't have no obligations. Okay. Now, now the pollution can flow. And that's what we've got right now, that we actually reduce the capability of treating the volume because instead of removing 89% to 92%, 94% solids at advanced primary, we now go up to 98%, 95%, we got this number, but it's only like 8%, you know, of solids more. So, if you could treat, a gallon here and you get 80% removal, but here you get 95% removal. But if you go to 95% removal, you can only treat a quarter of the water to do that. Well, this had the illusion in environmental groups, so this is better. No, it’s not. You are actually gonna have more pollution going into the ocean because you went to secondary because you’re not treating. [They say]” Well. What we don't collect, we're not liable for.” And say that's how the IBWC was able, their capacity dropped dramatically. And, it's just frustrating to see people that mean well, but don't look at the numbers and don't look at the total impact. And they don't. And really the problem is, so few of people that are involved in this stuff actually live down at the border. Bilbray: And that's, that's the frustration. People are insulated from the outcome. And today, we do not have a recycling program in Mexico today because people who claim they cared about the environment killed the Bagua project because they're worried about some capitalists make money on recycling water. Well, guess what, guys? You got Poseidon up in Carlsbad. You got people, private money all over this country right now doing it and you're gonna do it. That's part of, that's a tool in our toolbox to be able to clean up the environment, shouldn't, allow some kind of misguided theology to stand in the way of good science. Savo: As we're sort of wrapping up our interview here were there any bills that you wish would've passed? Not just related to the environment, but in general as your, as your, both your terms in Congress? Bilbray: Look, I got things done that… In many different ways. Bilbray: The, um, Bilbray: Dirty little secret is probably one of the most efficient things I got done was you open up, look at your driver's license. The real ID bill was my piece of legislation. I did it while I was in my forced sabbatical. And I did it because a group that had worked with me on border problems came to me and said, would you carry this? And I was allowed, because I was a former member, or I was a former voting member, that the chairman of the committee, Mr. Sensenbrenner, actually had to call me into a conference of his Republicans so I could chastise Republicans about the fact that it's not a right-wing conspiracy to have a minimum standard for the ID that you need to get on an airplane. And they say, “Yeah, but this is gonna be a national ID card.” And you had ultra-conservatives that were gonna kill it. And I went in and says, “No, this is the alternative to a national ID card.” You have state IDs, but they have federal standards. And those standards then eliminate the need to have a federal ID. You have. The states are presenting what is, which is enforceable as a federal ID. And getting that passed, is really a lesson for our everybody to look at. It is just now finally becoming mandated. How many years has it been since 9/11? Savo: About 22, 22. Bilbray: And they said, just let me back up and explain why 9/11 is mentioned. The terrorists on 9/11 did not have to show their Saudi passports because they went to Virginia and they got a Virginia license plate, even though, the license, even though they were illegally in the country, they got an ID that got them on that plane and killed over 2,000 people, Americans. And, then when Virginia stopped it after 9/11, they stopped giving it to anybody who [applied] and they required that you have to be legally here, you have to have the proper documentation, whatever, to get it. Maryland was giving it, given it to [people who] didn't do it. So that's when people start sitting around saying, this could happen again. And the people may think that, “Oh, well that's punitive not to give it to somebody who's undocumented.” Bilbray: Well, what, what do you use as a basis for your document if there's no documents, the person has any documents you’re wide open. So that one has been real easy. And it actually goes to something I learned my first year in politics, was 1976 and California implemented a digital code on our driver's licenses, and it was a barcode. And I remember going through hearings as a little 25-year-old city councilman about [how] with this barcode you can put it a put it in a reader and you could get all the information, you can get the picture. In fact, and to this day, I remember them selling that. That all we have to do is get these readers for every squad car, every cruiser. And a police officer doesn't have to sit down and do the paperwork. Bilbray: He can punch it in. The trouble is, uh, fifty years later, they still haven't put the readers in the squad cars. And one of the things was to say it was really important you pull somebody over that if they put this reader in and that the picture on their screen is not the picture on the card. You know, officers are now warned that there's a problem here. But a lot of that is, you know, just osmosis, you're around it enough, you pick it up. And I was able to pull out my California card to these right wingers who didn't want to do it and then pull out my credit card. And, I just said, um, guys, do you have a credit card? “Yeah, we had credit card.” Do you have a …, I said, the government already knows all about it. Bilbray: If you've got a cell phone, they know where you are because we required the, 911 code to be able to track it down because somebody crashed in Colorado, went into a snowplow, and the kids were calling for911 and they couldn't find them. And the story at the hearing was they, Colorado had every, all the state troopers run with sirens on. And then when the kids heard the siren, they said, okay, they stopped the cars and they turned off the sirens until the kids said, stop. And so they knew which cruiser was in the area where these kids were. And I tell the story because that led up to the fact that now every phone is tracked. And so, these conservative guys, I said, they already know where you are. They know what you're buying so to worry about Bilbray: This driver's license thing is absolutely absurd. So that's how we got that through. But there was, you know, look, there's things that you get to do that you don't even talk about. I mean, one of the best things I ever did never even was public. And that is we had a local business that offered to give their supercomputer to the federal government. They had worked with the UC [University of California] system and they offered to give it, as long as I kept it secret, as long as we didn't say who they were. And it was a local business here that gave their supercomputer, as a mainframe for the genome program. And that mainframe and that genome program, ten years later, when my daughter was fighting stage three C cancer at 20% chance of living with melanoma. A 20% chance of living two more years, that's all. Bilbray: And that mainframe and that system that was set up ten years before, found the b wrap mutation on my daughter's cancer. And that's what saved her life. And I have two grandchildren because these businessmen quietly contributed to this. And I just happened to be on the committee, the Health and Environment Committee of the Energy and Commerce Committee. I was on the committee that was working on the genome program. And that deal has not only saved my daughter's life and created the two grandchild children's lives, but have done a whole lot more. I mean, how many millions of people have been saved on that? And nobody even knows that we did that. And that's what's important to being at the right place where you can help, being the lifeguard, being able to run out and, you know, be part of that. And you, you can't, you couldn't give me a million dollars to change that. The little things you do in the back and aren't talked about is what really matters. Savo: Well, Mr. Bilbray, this was an excellent interview. I appreciate you for your time. It was a real pleasure. I thank you a lot. Bilbray: Well, thank you very much. And, if you have any other wines, let me know. I'm unemployed now, so, as long as I'm not sailing my boat to Mexico or riding my Harley over to meet my, see my cousins in Las Vegas, I'll be around. In fact, we are, [on] the 27th of this month. I'm gonna represent my cousin who just passed away this year. They have the 20th anniversary of his elementary school they named after him. See, they'll do that for Democrats, but Republican will never get it [laughs]. But that's okay. Well, my luck, they'll name a sewage plan after me. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-056 Subject The topic of the resource Borderlands Environmentalism and politics -- California -- San Diego Environmentalism and politics -- Mexico -- Tijuana Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Metropolitan government Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century United States. Congress. House Water rights -- Mexico Water rights -- United States Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brian Bilbray Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Mexican-American Border Region Imperial Beach (Calif.) 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Community history History Department internship Politics and governance https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/16c819ecee03d3978d8818963f0d9827.pdf d5078d0e63780b613c3a2061cc24e594 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bilbray, Brian. Interview transcript April 3rd, 2023. Description An account of the resource Brian Bilbray is a former Representative in the Congress of the United States. He served as a Republican representative for the 49th district (now 53rd) in California from 1995 until 2001 and then again from 2006 until 2013. In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. This oral history interview was made possible by the Ellie Johns Foundation stewarded by the Rancho Santa Fe Library Guild. It was created as part of CSUSM's University Library/History Department internship in oral history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brian Bilbray Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Robert Sheehan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-03 Subject The topic of the resource Borderlands Environmentalism and politics -- California -- San Diego Environmentalism and politics -- Mexico -- Tijuana Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Metropolitan government Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century United States. Congress. House Water rights -- Mexico Water rights -- United States Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Imperial Beach (Calif.) Mexican-American Border Region Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Brian Bilbray License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_Transcript Community history History Department internship Politics and governance Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rick Blankemeier OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BlankemeierRick_DownieJudith_2025-01-03.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Blankemeier, Rick. Interview January 3rd, 2025. SC027-067 01:28:35 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Brewing industry ; Stone Brewing Company ; Belching Beaver Brewery ; Modern Times Beer + Coffee ; Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County ; Brewing industry -- Quality control ; Brewing industry -- Accidents Rick Blankemeier Judith Downie sound BlankemeierRick_DownieJudith_2025-01-03.m4a 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/bd5e888c4de2b7cf6584dfe5ca3b1bcb.m4a Other audio English 0 Introduction Oral history of Rick Blankemeier on January 3rd, 2025 by Judith Downie, Special Collections Librarian at the University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 150 Getting Started in Brewing Rick Blankemeier discusses his education as well as how he got his start in brewing through his wife who got him his first home brew kit. Brewing ; Home brewing ; Colorado 0 618 Quality Control Manager Rick talks about his work at Stone Brewery, Modern Times Brewing, and Belching Beaver Brewery as a quality control manager and the collaborative spirit of the San Diego brewing scene. collaboration ; brewing ; Stone Brewery ; Modern Times ; Belching Beaver 0 1038 Winning Stone's Spotlight Competition and Leaving Stone for the Director of Brewing Operations at Modern Times Rick talks about how he and Robbie Chandler won Stone Brewing's first Spotlight competition by creating Spröcketbier. After spending years as a quality control manager at Stone Brewing, Rick jumped on the opportunity to become a Director of Brewing Operations at Modern Times, another brewery in San Diego. He talks about the transition from one position to another and how he needed to reshape his way of thinking to encompass a larger picture of the brewing business. Manager ; Director of Brewing Operations ; Brewing ; Stone Brewery ; Modern Times Brewing 0 1751 Designing Spröcketbier's label and a Tribute to Matt Courtright Rick talks about how he came up with the Spröcketbier label design and how that gave tribute to Matt Courtright who lost his life in a forklift accident while working at Stone. That accident had a big impact on how Rick approached safety while working for Modern Times and Belching Beaver. Matt Courtright ; Label Design ; Workplace accident ; Workplace safety 0 2186 The Physical Toll of Brewing Rick talks about how the manual labor of brewing at scales like Stone, Modern Times, and Belching Beaver can have an impact on the quality of life and health of workers later on in life. 0 2301 Marketing Spröcketbier Rick talks about how he and Robbie Chandler were flown around the country to go to different brewing events and talk about Spröcketbier. Spröcketbier ; Work trip ; all expenses paid ; Brewing events 0 2746 The Impact of the COVID Pandemic on Brewing Rick talks about how the COVID-19 pandemic impacted the brewing industry in San Diego. COVID ; Pandemic ; Shutdowns 0 3537 Belching Beaver and International Relations Rick talks about being let go by Modern Times and going back to his roots as a Quality Control Manager at Belching Beaver Brewing. At Belching Beaver he developed relationships with Chinese distributers while educating them on the quality control process. international relations ; quality control ; Belching Beaver 0 4013 Leaving Brewing Rick talks about how both he and his wife decided to leave the brewing industry during COVID because of the poor treatment of service industry workers and the rocky ups and downs of the economy. 0 4254 Teaching at UCSD Rick talks about his time teaching at UCSDs Brewing Extension program. He started as a substitute instructor whenever the courses' primary instructor was absent and eventually became the primary teacher. UCSD ; Teaching ; Brewing Extension program 0 4736 Still Enjoying Craft Beer Rick talks about how he still enjoys the craft beer scene even though he is no longer involved with brewing. His favorite watering hole is Battle Mage Brewing in Vista, California. 0 Oral history Rick Blankemeier was a quality manager at Stone Brewery from 2010 - 2017. Rick and his colleague, Robbie Chandler, were the first to win Stone's internal brewing competition which was called the Stone Spotlight in 2014. Rick and Robbie's beer was called Sprocketbeir and it was brewed and distributed nationally as part of the competition. Blankemeier was also the Director of Brewing Operations for Modern Times from 2017 - 2019 and the Quality Manager of Belching Beaver from 2019 - 2022. He also taught a brewing course at UCSD. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.220 --> 00:00:06.264 And that, and send that to you later. So. Okay. Well, Rick, if you will start by introducing yourself and what you do now. 00:00:06.264 --> 00:00:20.065 Oh, okay. Um, yeah. My name is Rick Blankemeier. I am a, right now I'm the quality, one of the quality engineers at a place called Hydronautics, which makes reverse osmosis filtration membranes. 00:00:20.065 --> 00:00:22.925 Ah, So you're still kind of in consumable beverages in a way. 00:00:22.925 --> 00:00:25.675 A little bit, yeah. In like the water side of things, 00:00:25.675 --> 00:00:25.684 Uhhuh. 00:00:25.684 --> 00:00:53.195 Like we make desalination elements. And, stuff for wastewater treatment and, uh, dairy processing. That's like one of our big things we do is make elements to separate the curds and the whey in cheese making. So, but we do sell elements to breweries too. And, like Belching Beaver, I know buys them and Stone does for all their reclamation operations that they have there still. So, yeah we're pretty happy about that. 00:00:53.195 --> 00:01:01.244 Yeah. So are they any of them using your systems for the water that they're using to brew with? Or is it more for their reclamation? 00:01:01.244 --> 00:01:30.000 Uh. Both. Yeah. So we have different elements that, you know, perform differently. The--one of our elements is definitely better for just--brackish--we call it brackish solutions. It's basically filtering city water or even just like slightly heavier salt water. But then we have desal stuff, which they don't use, but then we also have wastewater reclamation elements that are more specialized for that. And like high pH environments. 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:37.045 And certainly something that we need around here. With our abbreviated waters supplies, which, you know, yeah. I've grown up with. 00:01:37.045 --> 00:01:53.114 Actually most of our clients are customers are in the Middle East and India. Actually. It's like, where a lot of it's being used. We actually sell the desal elements to the Gaza Strip's desal plant for drinking water for all the Gaza folks there. So-- 00:01:53.114 --> 00:01:56.305 And there's probably a lot of that that's been blown up and ruined and-- 00:01:56.305 --> 00:02:06.444 Yeah. Well, they try not to target infrastructure like that Because it also feeds drinking water into other parts of Israel too. So, I think it'll, yeah-- 00:02:06.444 --> 00:02:09.693 Yeah. So there's some self self concern going on there. 00:02:09.693 --> 00:02:10.638 A little bit. 00:02:10.638 --> 00:02:10.875 Oh, man. 00:02:10.875 --> 00:02:12.884 Yeah. It's a pretty bad situation over there. 00:02:12.884 --> 00:02:15.568 Well, but that certainly is, is keeping you busy. 00:02:15.568 --> 00:02:16.104 Yeah, no, absolutely. 00:02:16.104 --> 00:02:19.895 So anyway, well, we'll--we're gonna start delving into your past. 00:02:19.895 --> 00:02:19.905 Okay. 00:02:19.905 --> 00:02:26.432 And of course, focusing on the brewing industry. But first, where are you from and what's your educational process or path been? 00:02:26.432 --> 00:04:05.625 Oh, okay. Yeah. Um, so I, my, both my parents were in the military, so we moved around a fair amount, but when I was younger, if I was gonna say like where I'm from, it'd be Colorado. And we settled down in Aurora when my parents were stationed there, and then they retired. Yeah, so we--I stayed there from basically ages, uh, six until we moved out here for work. But, uh, they--my education path's pretty similar, but I got in, I went to the University of Colorado at Boulder, and I did a combination master's, uh, a bachelor's/master's degree in chemical engineering with an emphasis on bioengineering. So I did a lot of, uh, actually it was specialized in tissue engineering. And then once I graduated, decided not to do anything with that and went into natural gas. Um, and so I did a natural gas plant and worked, you know, to set up a process for turning natural gas into hydrogen for fuel cell cars. And also for other hydrogen needs that a lot of other, you know, applications in the petrochemical business. So we'd sell hydrogen to other plants for that. And then, uh, I hated it. And so, my wife and I, well, my girlfriend at the time, now my wife, got me a homebrew kit and, uh, when I was kind of miserable and really enjoyed that. So I found a job out here, and that's when we moved out here in April of 2010. To work at Stone. And I started as a brewer and worked my way up to the quality manager there. 00:04:05.625 --> 00:04:09.844 Do you think it was advantageous to work as a brewer before you went into quality management? 00:04:09.844 --> 00:04:51.944 I think so. Yeah. Um, brewers, at least when I worked with them, I'm not sure if that's the same now, but they definitely respected you more if you worked on the floor. They called the office people, carpet walkers, a lot. And, uh, which they're--a lot of 'em are very necessary for the operation of business. But in terms of the amount of respect, they definitely respected anyone who was, you know, worked on the floor at least, and a recent amount of time, so like, and plus I had to be on the floor a lot, you know to help out with certain things. And, you know, I still enjoyed brewing, so I helped out with brewing a fair amount too. During that time. 00:04:51.944 --> 00:04:57.754 So going back to your home brewing, do you remember the first beer that you brewed? 00:04:57.754 --> 00:06:24.605 I think it was a red ale. It was just a, it was a, just a kit that came with, I think, their home brew kit that my wife got me. And so I brewed that up and kind of got hooked on that. I do remember, it was really funny though because like we just moved in together--this is in Colorado, and I needed shoulder surgery because we went on a rafting trip and my--I was like, try, I got--our boat got turned over in the rapids, and then I tried to swim for it and my arm, like, came out of its socket. So then I had to, I know it was pretty--and it was one of those things where it, uh, tore a labrum, so it was kind of loosey-goosey. So if I like stretched too much on it, it would just like pop out. And I was like, ah! So I eventually got that repaired. And so, my wife kind of helped me with my convalescence with that. But right before I got into surgery, I brewed a beer and put it in the closet. And it just went crazy and kind of, I think over pitched yeast on it, and it kind of just put like, all the clothes in there got like sprayed with yeasty beer, and then she's like, yeah--I was like recovering from soldier shoulder surgery. And she was like, "you clean this up now." So anyways, we had--we had a little rocky start to the home brewing thing, but she eventually-- 00:06:24.605 --> 00:06:26.086 Well, she stuck with you-- 00:06:26.086 --> 00:06:26.721 She did! 00:06:26.721 --> 00:06:27.770 You know, you learn not to over pitch your yeast. 00:06:27.770 --> 00:06:30.996 She got involved in the brewing industry too, so-- 00:06:30.996 --> 00:06:31.722 Oh, really? 00:06:31.722 --> 00:07:10.964 After that, and she was, uh, she was a tour guide at Stone for a bit and then she was the--basically the admin assistant for the brewing department for a few years. And then she left there to go work at Lost Abbey for a bit at the Confessional and, uh, what's it called? The--Cardiff. And was a bartender there for a number of years and really enjoyed it. So she's--she and I are both out of beer now. She's working as a dev test for medical device company in Carlsbad. So. I know. It's like, well, we're actually earning money now, that's crazy. 00:07:10.964 --> 00:07:18.132 Yeah. Well, yeah, you kind of touched on a--on a pretty common theme and you know, you do it for the passion. You do not do it for the income. 00:07:18.132 --> 00:07:19.725 No, no, no. 00:07:19.725 --> 00:07:35.754 You know, you're--I'm--we're watching all these breweries right now closing, and it's this, and, so many of 'em gone up for sale and nobody's buying 'em because they just, you know, they're, "yeah, I'm gonna pour all this money in and not make any, so, you know, can't do that right now. It's just not feasible." 00:07:35.754 --> 00:08:15.000 Yeah. I mean, I feel like probably from like 20--you know, 2006 to about 2018 or so, there was like this, I don't know, I feel like it was more of like a gold rush mentality. I'm sure you have better perspective on it than I do, but being in the industry, it felt like people were just getting into it and thinking that either they would make a pretty decent living on doing it, and they were homebrewers or whatnot, or they were trying to strike it rich somehow and it was felt like that, you know, if you got into this niche and did well, you can make a bunch of money at beer. And I don't think until it's like economies of scale bigger, you don't really make a lot of money with that. 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:48.004 Yeah. You don't. Yeah. I mean, the margin is way too small on your individual glass or can of beer to be making a fortune until you go, like you say, the economies of scale. But, uh, that's something that a lot of people went into because they were making beer and all their friends--they had a passion for it. Their friends told them they were making great beer, you really ought to open up a brewery I'll put some money behind you and yet nobody really had a true business plan or an understanding, or especially when 2020 came around an allowance for some kind of crisis. 00:08:48.004 --> 00:09:27.065 Right! Yeah. Like a kind of a, you know, the emergency funds or like a plan for anything like that happening. Yeah. It was, um, I mean, that was how I actually wanted to get into beer in the first place, was that I wanted to like work at a brewery, so I knew what it was like. So, you know, when I asked, you know, friends, family, and investors for, you know, starting my own brewery one day, that I know what I'm talking about. And like, what I was expecting. And then of course, like after the years went on, I was like, I am, there's no way in hell I'm opening a brewery. There's so much work and there's so much capital in terms of all the stainless you have to buy and-- 00:09:27.065 --> 00:09:53.284 The hours you have to put in the headaches. I mean, the amount of legislation and just reporting and--oh yeah. My head swims when I look at all that stuff and just go, you know, and if you go into it because it's an emotional passion, be because it's creative. That is exactly the sort of thing that you don't do, don't excel at, hate, you know, things like that. But you were wise. You got into it and you saw what was going on and you said, oh, wait a minute. 00:09:53.284 --> 00:10:18.835 Yeah. I mean, it was fun and I really enjoyed, and I learned a lot and, you know, did a lot of work, especially on the quality side and learned a lot about what breweries should be doing in terms of quality assurance, quality control, and that I just wasn't seeing a lot of it. And the breweries that succeeded ultimately, like, had really good marketing and really good beer. I mean, that's essentially what it boiled down to. 00:10:18.835 --> 00:10:52.335 Well, and the good beer goes back to the quality control because there are a lot of the smaller breweries that don't really have the capacity to do really thorough quality control. They're doing the best they can, but it shows when the beer, you know, you've got this one beer that's one of maybe your staple beers that you've always got on tap, but it changes from brew cycle to brew cycle, which part of that is the ingredients change, but your quality control is where it's supposed to step in and say, "oh, wait a minute, this isn't what people are going to expect, and what do we do to fix it?" 00:10:52.335 --> 00:11:34.485 Right. Yeah. And that was kind of--and oh, I was the sort of defacto, being at Stone, and then later at Modern Times a little bit and--but also at Belching Beaver--at Stone, I was definitely like, I felt like the quality control person for all the breweries in the area because they would come, it's like, "Hey, Rick, there's this issue. What should I do?" And I'm like, well, you know, sometimes I'd be like, oh yeah, I'll maybe do this and this and see if it works and they're like, "Oh, it worked really good!" "Thanks Rick!" Uh, but then there were other times where I'm like, uh, dump it. I'm sorry, dude. There's not much you can do without that. Yeah. It's, uh, that's kind of SOL. I just, I would not serve that in any sense or form to you know, a customer. 00:11:34.485 --> 00:11:47.575 Yeah. I mean, and that's hard news for somebody, but really you're not doing in favors to say, hey, go ahead and try this and see if you can resurrect it when you just know is not gonna work. That's just, you know, that's not the San Diego spirit-- 00:11:47.575 --> 00:11:47.585 No. 00:11:47.585 --> 00:12:17.105 --San Diego. Everybody's been so collaborative with each other. That's one of the things, when we first started looking at founding the Brewchive®, I started talking to some brewers and they all said, oh, you need to talk to so and so, and you need to talk to so and so. And giving me all these names, of course, of people who I didn't know but it was just like, people really like each other. I would've thought in an industry where you're all trying to cover the same consumer base you'd be at each other's throats and that's not what San Diego does. Very different. 00:12:17.105 --> 00:13:22.085 No. And that collaborative spirit, I feel like is what really elevated a lot of other breweries and even with like collaborations and everything, it seems like that, it's like definitely an exchanging of information, but also just like better practices too. Felt like the breweries, like I know for sure that I went to other breweries, not even in San Diego, but other places and, you know, like Chicago or down south in like Atlanta and all that. And I saw see things, and I was like, oh, this is a really brilliant way of doing this. Oh, I'm definitely, you know, as our--after Mitch left Stone, Joel Grosser was the kind of brewmaster there, and he'd always say like, yeah, if you see like something at another brewery that was like, better practices, even if it's like just like safety related, or better cleanliness or whatever? Yeah. Steal that, steal with pride. He used to say that, and I was like, and he came from Anheuser-Busch, so I'm not sure--(laughter)--I'm not sure if that means anything, but I was like, yeah, steal with pride! 00:13:22.085 --> 00:13:24.004 Yeah. I like that saying. 00:13:24.004 --> 00:13:48.683 But, I mean it was about like, more about like seeing better ways of organizing things, cleaning things. Safety related, which I feel like is like every brewery would be like, yeah, no. like we understood that like a rising tide lifts all boats and everything. And we know that if a brewery was really bad, that would look--people, the average consumer, at least for the most part, we feel like doesn't really, like they lump all the craft beer in one, in like one bucket. 00:13:48.683 --> 00:13:50.485 Yeah. If one's bad, they're all gonna be bad. 00:13:50.485 --> 00:13:51.284 Yeah so that's-- 00:13:51.284 --> 00:13:51.524 That's not the way. 00:13:51.524 --> 00:14:24.000 So that's what we, I think we're trying to avoid and that's why I helped out so many other breweries with their quality control issues, was that, you know, (we) were at another company. They were like, oh, they're having quality control issues, good. So we're good. But then, yeah, I was actually encouraged at places like Stone and Belching Beaver to help out some other breweries with some of their issues as long as it didn't take away from my duties. But if it's like a phone call and be like, yeah, do this, do this, this, this, hang up, it's fine. And they didn't feel like it was like violating an NDA or anything along those lines. 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:42.325 Right. Did you find much opportunity with all your, with your working to go visit other breweries? That seems to be a real constant around San Diego is a lot of the brewers, front of house, back of house, whoever they go and they drink at other breweries as well, you know. It's not like, oh, I gotta spend all my money at my own brewery. I'm gonna go visit everybody else's and find stuff I like. 00:14:42.325 --> 00:15:19.485 Well I feel like it was actually the opposite, is that we didn't wanna spend any of our money at our own brewery because they weren't paying us enough, and then we'd give them back our money. So, yeah. I mean, me personally, I would always drink other people's beer. I would only like bring, you know, the free beer I'd get at Stone, just because I'm like, here, have some beer from Stone. And it was always polite whenever you went to other breweries is to bring gifts of your own beer and everything there. And then they would also in turn, give you free beer and like a tour of the place. And you get to see everything and that was, kind of that it was like a cultural exchange, it felt like. 00:15:19.485 --> 00:15:41.884 And you never know, you might wind up working with those people at some point too because there's so much cross pollination and job jumping for whatever reason within the local breweries. But then again, being collaborative and getting along with people, leaves those doors open where if you've always talked bad about another brewery, well, they're never gonna hire you if you did need a job somewhere else. You know, that's just not gonna happen. 00:15:41.884 --> 00:16:42.215 Although I have to have a confession that I did talk badly about Modern Times when, um, because Jacob McKean worked at Stone. And, I just, I--full like, you know, full confession. I was not, I did not enjoy him as a person in the very brief instances we worked, because he was on the marketing side, I was on the brewing side, but then he came in and did like, you know, some videos of like, me working the lab you know, the marketing stuff and he's like, you still write all this down? Like, why don't you use like spreadsheets and everything? I'm like, well, I do. I double enter. So then if I lose one or the other, like if you know, the shared drive fails, then at least I have like the paper copy of it because this is all important stuff in terms of quality control. If I can't look back and see like, oh yeah, this had this bacteria in it then, and then something happens, or, you know, it gets in a fire or lose all the saved data, then I don't have that reference to come back to. 00:16:42.215 --> 00:16:44.187 Or if you're walking around with a laptop and beer gets spilled in it. 00:16:44.187 --> 00:16:54.235 Which happens a lot. Yeah. So, I don't know. I just, I wasn't a fan of him. But then later on, I, uh, you know, when I applied for the job, I was like, oh, okay. I think he's kind of gotten a little bit less snooty. A little bit. 00:16:54.235 --> 00:17:10.755 Well, you know, and you know, when it's put to you in a certain way, sometimes your hackles just raise. I mean, it's like you're attacking the way I do things. And it works for me. So, you know, great. If it doesn't work for you, fine. But, so yeah. First impression sometimes. 00:17:10.755 --> 00:17:20.884 Yeah, I know. But in general though, I enjoyed the Modern Times beers. When the opportunity for a director brewing operations position opened up, that's where I went to it. 00:17:20.884 --> 00:17:25.164 Because that was, that would be a step up from where you were at Stone at the point. Right? 00:17:25.164 --> 00:17:58.865 Yeah. And I didn't really have a good--once I got to be Quality Manager, they kept putting people above me from outside from, usually from Anheuser-Busch. And, I was like, well, I don't really have a good career path. And even my boss at the time was like, when I put in my notice, he's like, "yeah, you know, it's, I don't see--I understand you don't really have like a path for growth here anymore." I'm like, yeah. 'cause you got, you've got where I wanted to go. But anyways. But after that, that's where I went to Modern Times for a little bit. It was only there for about two years before I went to Belching Beaver. 00:17:58.865 --> 00:18:08.345 So well before we leave Stone and jump to Modern Times and your experience there, of course, you know, you with Robbie Chandler--now, who is Robbie? 00:18:08.345 --> 00:19:06.983 So Robbie was the warehouse lead at Stone. He was the kind of the--he was the forklift jockey, the guy unloading the trucks. I think eventually became the warehouse supervisor there. But, you know, he was the guy, just big personality and just a bear of a man, big old beard and everything, and he and I just really got along well together. The funny thing was--is that when they announced that if you wanted to be part of the Spotlight competition you pair off with, you know, whoever you wanted to do it with. And so it came down to it. I was like, I signed up for it and then I was like, who do I want to brew with me? Oh, Robbie said he wanted to brew with me. And so I was like, Hey, Robbie, you want to come? He's like, oh, yeah, no, I'll brew with you. And I didn't realize that he had another partner that was already set up, so he just totally like, ditched that, that group, and then came over to my side and people were angry. It's like, I didn't, I didn't know. I just asked him. 00:19:06.983 --> 00:19:08.684 Yeah, yeah. You didn't poach him! 00:19:08.684 --> 00:19:15.085 I know I didn't, I had no idea. He didn't even tell me that. He was like, no, I'm with you on this one. So. 00:19:15.085 --> 00:19:22.384 Well. If he had been talking to you about brewing with you and that, that was the opportunity, I can kind of see why, but yeah, I can see feelings being being maybe a little bit hurt there too. 00:19:22.384 --> 00:19:34.525 And I mean, and bless Robbie, he's got such a good personality and such a, he was very jovial. He just didn't know as much about the beer brewing process as I did. So, you know, I basically-- 00:19:34.525 --> 00:19:36.204 He, he had not been home brewing then? 00:19:36.204 --> 00:19:52.434 He did a little bit of home brewing, but it wasn't like when we were coming up with a recipe, you know, I was just like, Hey, just feel free to jump in if you want, change anything. But I was thinking like, let's do something different, something kind of off the wall, at least-- 00:19:52.434 --> 00:19:53.674 Very Stone that way. 00:19:53.674 --> 00:20:17.404 Yeah. And let's do a black rye kölsch. And he is like, yeah, that sounds good. I'm like, no notes or anything? He's like, no, let's just do it. And I was like, okay. All right. So I guess we're doing a black rye kölsch. Sure. And we spent most of the other time talking about what we'd name it, and we were both fans of SNL and the sprockets skit that Mike Myers was on when he was on SNL. 00:20:17.404 --> 00:20:18.525 Boy, I don't even remember that one. 00:20:18.525 --> 00:20:23.684 Uh, it was like, um, the German ones. He's like, "Velcome to Shprockets, My name is Dieter," you know. 00:20:23.684 --> 00:20:24.674 Oh, okay. The Dieters. 00:20:24.674 --> 00:20:44.884 Yeah. The, yeah. And he is like, yeah, "Vould you like to touch my monkey?" You know, stuff like that. And I guess that's what with my German last name, he (was) always like, um, he's like, no, Rick, I do not to touch your monkey. But anyways, we were all goofing around and kind of riffing off each other and doing these silly little bits, but that's what we wanted to call it Sprocketbier. 00:20:44.884 --> 00:21:07.065 Okay. Okay. Well then that explains the name. I'll have to go back. And probably on YouTube there's some of those old, and rewatch those 'cause, it's been, it's been so, so long. So when you were designing that beer, did you have test batches that you made? How much time did you have to prepare for the competition and it-- 00:21:07.065 --> 00:21:21.204 We made one test batch before we brewed the kind of scaled up one on the small system at Stone. So I did, you know, we did that at Robbie's house 'cause he had a better house for that, to kind of brew on there. So we just did once. And-- 00:21:21.204 --> 00:21:24.355 Your wife probably wasn't real happy about you maybe having beer in the closet again. 00:21:24.355 --> 00:22:22.025 Well, she, uh, she was fine with it after that. We'd have better areas to store things at that point. But, yeah. But we brewed one batch of it, and it came out pretty well. We made--I made some adjustments to the amount of Carafa malt, which is like, that de-bittered black malt. We'd add to it. But after that, we just kind of scaled it up to the small system and brewed it. And yeah. It was Robbie and I kind of on there with the--under the supervision of Steve Gonzalez, who was the small batch manager. I think he still is at Stone, at this point. But, uh, yeah, no, we brewed that. And really, I was hoping to do well, like come in like the top three, but I really didn't expect to win on that. Well 'cause everyone else was like doing IPAs, like fun or other kinds of like, fun kind of Belgian-style beers. And I wasn't really expecting to actually do anything too revolutionary with it. 00:22:22.025 --> 00:22:23.724 Who were the judges, do you know? 00:22:23.724 --> 00:22:27.904 Yeah, it was Greg, Steve and Mitch. Yeah. So. 00:22:27.904 --> 00:22:28.859 The highest level. 00:22:28.859 --> 00:22:29.815 Highest level. Yeah. It was-- 00:22:29.815 --> 00:22:32.914 There was nobody to go to if you wanted to contest the results. 00:22:32.914 --> 00:23:54.924 Well, I mean the whole concept of the Spotlight series came about from sort of the amount of unhappiness of the brewers of not having ways of being creative. So, I think it was in 2013 or 2012 or 2013, they did like the first employee survey. And, they did like a kind of a presentation on that and for everyone, and kind of understood that like there was a lot of unhappy people working at Stone at the time . And, the brewers more specifically were very unhappy with the lack of creative control that they had, which is, I mean, looking back at it, I'm like, it's, you know--it wasn't necessary. I don't know, like it was, we had a lot of really talented brewers. Very, you know, very talented brewers. And I think that they thought working at Stone that they'd get a chance to do a lot more of the creative stuff. And then they did like the creative casks thing where they would like pull beer off into a cask, do cask conditioning and add different ingredients to the base of our core lineup of beers. And that was fun. But then they also wanted to make something that could potentially do well for the company in a national release. And that's where the Spotlight series kind of came in. 00:23:54.924 --> 00:24:06.055 Yeah. There's that tension between personal creativity, what's gonna be marketable, and how many people wanna participate, and how sustainable a program like that actually is. 00:24:06.055 --> 00:24:16.325 Right. And I think that, you know, I'm sure if they reflected on it, they would've gone with a much smaller batch, and-- 00:24:16.325 --> 00:24:17.884 Well, how big was the batch? 00:24:17.884 --> 00:24:41.590 Um, so, I think it was three fermenters for it, which is pretty good for nationwide release at the time, based on the distribution network. So that was, and each batch was about 350 barrels after filtration. So 350, so 700 and about just about a thousand. 00:24:41.590 --> 00:24:42.117 Yeah, Over thousand barrels or more. 00:24:42.117 --> 00:24:44.799 Yeah. And so, yeah, they, that's what they did. Of course-- 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:45.581 That's big. 00:24:45.581 --> 00:25:24.355 Next year was only two fermenters, and then the year after that was only one fermenter as far as from what I remember. But they wanted to, I think, to keep doing a little bit of that in case like something, you know, like a hit happened. Ballast Point, that was the reference of it 'cause Ballast Point had their Homebrew Mart. And they would brew, you know, a few beers and I mean, obviously that's where Sculpin came from. That's where some of their other hits, uh, Indra Kunindra. That weird curry beer that they made that actually did pretty well came from that system. So Stone wanted something similar, I think as like a sort of incubator for interesting, you know, a potential beer that could do well for them. 00:25:24.355 --> 00:25:50.674 Yeah. 'cause I'm thinking, I'm not clear on the date on this, but the American Homebrew Association competition, that Stone sponsored, and then they would take the winning beer and, you know, it's like Chris Banker Xocoveza. Um, Ken, now his name escapes me right this minute. I can see his face in my head! But, you know, uh, Ken did the, um, he always wears Hawaiian shirts, big guy with a beard. 00:25:50.674 --> 00:25:51.815 Oh! Um-- 00:25:51.815 --> 00:25:53.743 I'm just blanking on his name and-- 00:25:53.743 --> 00:25:56.375 Yeah. The coconut porter? 00:25:56.375 --> 00:25:58.265 Yeah. So he did that. And, uh-- 00:25:58.265 --> 00:25:59.835 Yeah, I know you exactly what you're talking about. 00:25:59.835 --> 00:26:06.334 Yeah. And so Mo-J's come out of that, you know, so there've been beers that have come out and like Xocoveza now is a staple. 00:26:06.334 --> 00:26:06.875 It is. Yeah. 00:26:06.875 --> 00:26:16.704 I mean, that really, that went over very well. But I'm not sure when those beers started as opposed to the Spotlight series. 00:26:16.704 --> 00:26:41.944 Yeah. So, the Homebrewer competition stuff was at the same time. I mean, I started in 2010 and we did the first, I think the first of the Homebrew was Ken's beer. And that was the year before, I think in 2009. And then we did all those collaboration series as well. with like Jolly Pumpkin and Firestone and all those other ones. So-- 00:26:41.944 --> 00:26:41.954 Yeah, Dogfish Head-- 00:26:41.954 --> 00:26:43.243 There was always these-- 00:26:43.243 --> 00:26:47.484 There was, I think, was it Dogfish Head, Stone and, you know-- 00:26:47.484 --> 00:26:48.412 Victory. 00:26:48.412 --> 00:26:51.000 They would do like a triangle--Victory. They would do triangle along the, along the bottle. 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:54.145 That was the Saison du BUFF. 00:26:54.145 --> 00:27:06.724 Each year the position of the breweries would switch around. I mean, 'cause I've got a lot of those bottles from Greg and going, what's the difference between these two bottles? Oh, wait a minute. Stone's on the top now Dogfish Head's at the top now at the apex. 00:27:06.724 --> 00:27:11.164 Yeah. Saison du BUFF. That was kind of one of Greg's fun collaborations with-- 00:27:11.164 --> 00:27:13.365 Yeah. Then the wOOtstout. 00:27:13.365 --> 00:27:33.365 wOOtstout. That was fun. I got to meet Wil Wheaton because he was a homebrew nerd at the time. He's now sober. But, he came in in the lab and was like nerding out. And I told him, and he actually brought some of his homebrew. And then I ran it through our alkalizer, which measures alcohol content so I could tell him what his alcohol and everything was. 00:27:33.365 --> 00:27:33.993 Oh, very good! 00:27:33.993 --> 00:27:35.483 Yeah. It was a lot of fun. 00:27:35.483 --> 00:27:40.085 Yeah, I didn't understand how Wil Wheaton had gotten into that, but, you know, if he homebrewed, then yeah. That would-- 00:27:40.085 --> 00:27:46.285 Yeah. I think it was he homebrewed and kind of, you know, I think probably got approached by Greg or something like that to make-- 00:27:46.285 --> 00:27:47.000 Or he approached Greg at a festival who knows. 00:27:47.000 --> 00:28:21.325 Or something. I forgot what it was, but yeah. Yeah. So that was, that was a--that was a real fun part of the process. Like that was what kind of kept me going on, was meeting these really cool people, not only from like Wil Wheaton, all them, but from other breweries as well. On these collaborations, kind of like, just talking shop about how they did things differently, how we did things differently. You know, I was--I've always been kind of that person that wants to expand my horizons or best practices. I'm like, oh yeah, that makes total sense! Why aren't we doing that? You know? 00:28:21.325 --> 00:28:23.464 Yeah. Steal with pride! 00:28:23.464 --> 00:28:24.891 Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. 00:28:24.891 --> 00:28:32.460 But yeah. Yeah. I mean, people should always be learning in my book, but, oh, yeah--Uh, so, Spröcketbier won first-- 00:28:32.460 --> 00:28:34.983 Yeah. It did, 00:28:34.983 --> 00:28:44.355 And then you brewed over a thousand barrels of it. And, you know, that's a lot of gallons of beer. So, you need to promote that! 00:28:44.355 --> 00:29:16.884 Well, yeah. And I, and that was, uh, there was--actually you can look on YouTube. We actually did some little videos. At least the marketing team did. Tyler Graham was the I think, head--no, I don't think he was head of marketing, but he was kind of the head videographer and creative presence there. He did a really good job with us. Actually, one of the fun things that we ended up doing was actually being very involved with the making of the label. 00:29:16.884 --> 00:29:19.365 I was gonna ask, how was the label designed? 00:29:19.365 --> 00:29:43.404 Yeah, actually, I'll show you. It was, um, for the--so the Monarose, who was actually a wife of one of the brewers came in and we wanted to do like, homages to the other brewers there. So we had this whole entire like, side of the label here. And all these have like little, I guess homages or-- 00:29:43.404 --> 00:29:44.454 References of some sort-- 00:29:44.454 --> 00:29:45.714 References to people who worked at Stone. 00:29:45.714 --> 00:29:49.484 Yeah 'cause there's a rooster. There's a couple of profiles. Well. 00:29:49.484 --> 00:29:50.994 Yeah. Well, that's us. Yeah. 00:29:50.994 --> 00:29:53.404 Okay. Because I was gonna, I'm not quite sure who that-- 00:29:53.404 --> 00:29:55.065 That's Robbie. That's, that's me. 00:29:55.065 --> 00:29:55.505 Okay. 00:29:55.505 --> 00:29:56.565 And then, so. 00:29:56.565 --> 00:29:59.845 Powell, and it looks like a little space--spaceman helmet or something? 00:29:59.845 --> 00:30:27.000 So one of the brewers we had, his name was, well, his nickname was Rooster and he's actually brewing down in Mexico right now. But he would just, like, we called him Rooster because he would just be like, "what's up Rooster?" And like, and he would just caw at us. So we wanted to have Rooster there. One of the other brewers, I don't know, we almost considered him kind of like our mascot 'cause he really--I love the guy. Robskie 00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:28.404 That's the letter bit. 00:30:28.404 --> 00:30:28.785 Yeah. 00:30:28.785 --> 00:30:29.317 The "S." 00:30:29.317 --> 00:30:39.657 He'd always just like, like a finger up and be like, "Hey, money, how's it going money?" And he had like a higher-pitch voice. And so we would--so that's a reference to him. And then-- 00:30:39.657 --> 00:30:41.745 Pow is? 00:30:41.745 --> 00:31:17.164 Is for, oh gosh, I'm so sorry. I'm, uh, it's Cecil. Cecil. He's still there. He just, he was just like, pow! Because he'd always like make it like he's gonna, you know, punch you in the dick. And so he, that's where we got that from. And then this is a reference to Steve Via, who was another brewer there. And we used to draw these, like, he used to draw these stupid little faces, 'cause that's what he kinda looked like. And he'd draw these stupid little faces called, we called 'em Steve Heads, on like the whiteboards everywhere. 00:31:17.164 --> 00:31:19.005 Steve was here. 00:31:19.005 --> 00:31:28.525 Yeah. And then, we had a little tribute to the brewer that, uh, Matt, who lost his life at Stone on the forklift accident. 00:31:28.525 --> 00:31:30.194 Oh yeah. That's the hand with the finger pointing up. 00:31:30.194 --> 00:32:05.285 Yeah. With that, with the same tattoo that we, a bunch of us ended up getting on the finger right there. Because he, it was kind of a jab at him too in a playful way, is that he recently got a--he was very religious and had some Bible quotes tattooed on his bicep. But he was like, he over-ellipseed. And we'd make him fun of him for that. It's like, that's permanent, you know, on there? So then, but that's what we all ended up getting. 'cause he, instead of just doing the dot, dot dot, he'd do dot space, dot dot and so that's what we ended up doing for that. 00:32:05.285 --> 00:32:08.515 Well that's really, really sweet that he's memorialized there. 00:32:08.515 --> 00:32:50.525 Well, and then the burning roses was actually his submission. He actually ended up being able to, um, we, oh--so Chris Ketchum down at Liberty Station, he wasn't able to brew it 'cause he passed away before he was able to brew it on the system. But they made a bigger batch of this and like another couple, like three fermenters full to honor Matt Courtright for that. So that was actually his submission for the Spotlight series. And so he and I--I think it was Jason was his brewing partner on there, but yeah. So they brewed this and it was, it's super tasty. It's really good stuff. 00:32:50.525 --> 00:33:01.954 No, and that's very, very touching because I knew somebody had lost their life on the work floor, but hadn't really delved into who it was or what had happened or anything. 00:33:01.954 --> 00:34:20.525 Yeah, it was, you know, it was that--it was 2013 and it was that time at Stone where we were growing really rapidly and there was where the bottling line used to be, they moved that down to the new packaging hall that was just built. And then they set up a--it was just an empty area there. So it wasn't really, people didn't really forklift around that area very often. So they weren't really aware of where the pillars were. The support pillars. Because there was equipment in the way during that time, but it was a good, convenient storage area until we actually ended up filling it up more with fer--more fermenters. And he wasn't-- you know, looking back on it, at the time it felt like it was a result of Stone growing too fast, not caring about the employees, et cetera, et cetera. But really looking back on it, it was a lot of unfortunately bad decisions made by Matt. He wasn't wearing a seatbelt. There were some drug use implications. I'm not exactly sure if that was the case or not, but I mean, regardless of what he was doing, it was super tragic and he ended up, pop--you know, transporting a chemical drum, turned too fast with his forks up, which is still a bad idea. 00:34:20.525 --> 00:34:22.405 Oh, that's gonna throw your balance off. Yeah. 00:34:22.405 --> 00:35:33.764 He hit the pillar, tumbled over. He tried to jump out. That was also a no-no. So there, like, there was a series of mistakes that happened during that point that if he would've done one of those things, it would've, at least he might--he would've gotten hurt but he wouldn't have died. And, so it was really unfortunate, but we all were devastated. There was so much good talent there that ended up leaving over the next year and a half pretty quickly. I mean, that was other reason why the Spotlight series was kind of, you know, I think it was gonna dwindle down pretty quick because there was just a lack of involvement there. But I mean, we, the brewers that were involved in the Spotlight series, one was Hollie (Stephenson), she ended up being the brewmaster at the new Guinness facility in Maryland. Left to do that. Chris Baker, he ended up being the brewmaster at Mother Earth. Casey (Harris), he's now the co-founder and brewmaster at Topa Topa up in Ventura area. I mean, there was so many really awesome brewers that went on to do better at the brewing industry and just great things. Yeah. And it was just hard to lose all those folks. But losing somebody like that at work, I mean, that's-- 00:35:33.764 --> 00:35:34.795 That's very hard. 00:35:34.795 --> 00:36:02.164 Yeah. It's it at like Modern Times and, uh, Belching Beaver, after I left to work for those places, I always harped on safety as a huge thing because I saw what it did. When you, you know, someone gets seriously hurt or loses their life at the place, it just destroys morale. And I mean, really from some of the people that I still talk to at Stone, it really didn't recover until very recently. And that was only because I think Sapporo bought them and kind of changed-- 00:36:02.164 --> 00:36:06.204 There was much going on. It's kind of like, you know, you--you're looking forward. 00:36:06.204 --> 00:36:07.364 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 00:36:07.364 --> 00:36:13.222 Yeah. But you still wanna remember Matt. That's, that's just very, very important. But yeah. 00:36:13.222 --> 00:36:14.110 Yeah! 00:36:14.110 --> 00:36:25.025 That's Wow. That, yeah, people don't think about what goes on behind the taps. You know, that back of house stuff, the brewery operations are--things can happen. 00:36:25.025 --> 00:36:40.275 Oh yeah. No, it's dangerous back there, especially in big operations. That's why it costs so much to run a big brewery, is the automation that needs to get involved with that. Because you can't do all this just with the, your, you know, strength of your back in terms of labor. You gotta, you know-- 00:36:40.275 --> 00:37:23.715 Well, I have said, because I helped brew the last batch at Chuckalek with Sam (Samantha) Olson. It was a Pink Boots blend, and I'm a "pink booter," so I went out to help Sam and of course it was horribly hot that day and their little tiny operation. And I was going, it's hot, it's heavy, it's sticky, it's awful. I--this is a young person's job. My toes are near flame, I don't like this. But at least you know it, again, it gave me that view into the brewing process. So I had more appreciation for what brewers actually do. But I went, this is definitely a young person's occupation. And not forever because boy, your back is gonna give out eventually. I don't care how much automation you have to help you, there's still a lot that is just simply manual labor. 00:37:23.715 --> 00:38:20.704 Yeah. I mean, I--actually it was interesting. My wife is now working in the medical device industry. But one of the--she actually got to observe a surgery because her company does back surgery equipment and like procedural stuff and everything. And one of the people that was there was someone who worked in the warehouse most of their life at Wyeast who you know, they make the yeast that a whole bunch of breweries use and everything. And yeah it's just his spine was messed up from all the work that he was doing, from that. And I've just seen, so like the--how this amount of manual labor really does wear someone down. You can see somebody, or like, wow, that person has to be like 50 years-old and ends up they're like just coming out of their thirties. You're just like, ooh. That's a lot. That's why I was glad to where I was kind of doing stuff in the lab most of the time. If I wasn't jockeying a desk. So, yeah. 00:38:20.704 --> 00:38:39.105 Now, before I asked you a qu--I need to make a note to myself here about, uh, hopefully that word will remind me what I want to ask you, but I still wanna ask, because you said that after the beer was bottled, you've explained the labeling. You went on a promotional tour. 00:38:39.105 --> 00:39:53.344 Yes. Yeah. That was the real fun part was like over the course of about two months, like we'd go to a location for like a weekend or whatever and then fly back and then do that about three or four times. And, yeah, we went to try to hit all the major hubs. So we did like obviously a promotional thing here. Or at Liberty Station and also at Escondido. Went to Seattle, Atlanta, Cleveland and Philadelphia. From all these places. And so we'd made up with the Air District Sales Manager there, and they would take us where they would want us to, you know, sometimes it was a bottle shop, sometimes there was like a, you know, event happening or whatnot. And that was really super fun. Especially at that time. Because you know, Stone paid for everything, so it was like, okay, it was, you know, making as little as we did at the time, it was nice to go on kind of an all expense, essentially paid tour of these like, you know, places and either have the sales reps or Mitch's credit card kind of pay for everything. So it was--it was a lot of fun. Like Robbie and I got into some really good places, met some really good people and-- 00:39:53.344 --> 00:39:56.525 Did you have to spend a lot of time explaining the beer? 00:39:56.525 --> 00:40:55.954 A little bit. I mean, like, between you and me and the recording, if you tasted a black rye kölsch, and you're familiar with beer styles, you're like, wow, that tastes exactly like a Schwarzbier. It is a Schwarzbier, basically. It's, uh, we wanna make something that's low alcohol, or lower alcohol. I think it was like five point a half percent. Yeah. 5.4%. And so it was something that we could probably drink a lot of during the sales tour and not get too schnockered during that time, and, but yeah, no, we--we did a lot of explaining of the beer. We did, you know, to--we wanted to make it a little bit more unique with using kölsch yeast instead of like a lager yeast. Because I don't thi--at that time, they would've, uh, I think Mitch would've been like, we're using ale yeast for this because it's gonna, we don't want it to sit in a month in, you know, in these tanks. So using the kölsch yeast, that's why I picked kölsch because it turned around much quicker. 00:40:55.954 --> 00:40:57.905 Yeah. Yeah. 00:40:57.905 --> 00:41:13.000 And I like rye. Rye is like one of my favorite grains, so. And I like, kind of like the idea of like using Carafa malt, which was originally designed to use in Schwarzbiers in Germany as a de-bittered black malt so you don't get a lot of the flavor of the malt, of the black malt, but you get the color. 00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:15.945 Right. Okay. 00:41:15.945 --> 00:41:16.644 So, yeah. 00:41:16.644 --> 00:41:18.585 Very interesting. 00:41:18.585 --> 00:41:33.275 Yeah. So we did all that and journeyed around the place and did--we had a, it was a place in Seattle where we did--we chugged boots of this beer. It was like a race and so-- 00:41:33.275 --> 00:41:34.684 Good it was 5.4%! 00:41:34.684 --> 00:42:08.885 Yeah, I know. I was getting kind of, I was definitely getting a little tired of all that after, at the time. But I mean, I wasn't. The traveling part was a lot of fun, especially since they always took the--to their best accounts and their--they were just geeking out that they had brewers there to kind of help like promote it. And people came up and asked us a bunch of really good questions about the process and you know, what--how everything is, how we're doing, you know? And what do you do for all this? How, how does this work on a scaled up process, all the geeky homebrewer questions that come our way. 00:42:08.885 --> 00:42:12.992 Yeah. Well, and it also, you know, it humanizes Stone. I mean-- 00:42:12.992 --> 00:42:13.335 Oh yeah. 00:42:13.335 --> 00:42:35.795 Stone has become such so mythic, you know, with the gargoyle and everything else. That to actually have brewers there and real people there from Stone representing Stone. It's not that big mega monolith that the bigger beer brands are, that you don't know who those people are, and they--they're so distanced from the brewing itself that you don't feel the connection. 00:42:35.795 --> 00:43:00.281 Well, and to kind of expand on that, at the time, Greg was very much the face of Stone. And people--and Greg had a kind of polarizing personality, still does, I think. But when you get to talk to with him one-on-one, he is like a super nice guy. Little bit awkward, you know, on that interpersonal basis, but when you get him in front of a camera or in front of a crowd, he turns into the "arrogant bastard" essentially the, you know--we joked around that it was like the Greg-face effect, back in the early days. 00:43:00.281 --> 00:43:16.125 I've seen a reference somewhere to Greg-face. I don't remember where it was-- 00:43:16.125 --> 00:43:54.195 He just had like a open mouth, like ahhhhhhhhh, and that was like his, you know, he's angry about, you know--was it, he's angry about making sure people have good beer or something like that. I don't know. It was marketing around him and I don't think it really landed as much as he was hoping it would land. But, I think part of the pro--but I think that was part of it was when you got the brewers out there, we're just, you know, normal people making beer and really enjoying it. And I think the crowd and people really enjoyed, like actually seeing that there was actually normal people working there. We're not all just like raging maniacs. 00:43:54.195 --> 00:44:10.605 Well, and that's the whole thing about craft beer is it's, you know, there are people and personalities behind it as opposed to anonymous, everything's automated production, so people who want that human interaction, that human touch or, you know, craft beer is really-- 00:44:10.605 --> 00:45:34.394 Literal blood, sweat, and tears going into this beer. I've seen it. It grossed me out, but I've seen it. No, it's, um--but yeah, no, it was--I think that was a big part and I think that's why like the cask events we did at the Escondido restaurant location and also at Liberty Station, the wOOt Fest. And when we released it during Comic-Con and we would make different casks and different beers with like, celebrities or like the minor ce--like kind of like geeky celebrities. That was fun and people I think really enjoyed seeing the brewers kind of working together with that instead of just being like you're saying against like a faceless monolith of a company, there was actually real people that work in this. You know, the ones working actually, like destroying our bodies to get beer to you. You know, and it's--that's a big part of it. I mean, that's why we were really focused on safety pretty hardcore, obviously after Matt's passing because of everything. And it was, uh, it was a big, you know, it was a big wake-up call for I think craft beer in San Diego in general because there was so many people that either knew Matt or knew about him. And then there was obviously like kind of self-reflecting of like, whoa, what if somebody died at our brewery? I mean, that was--that'd be devastating. And they saw that, so. 00:45:34.394 --> 00:45:41.580 Yeah. And that's part of the maturing of the industry is accepting that things aren't always going to stay the same and bad things can happen. 00:45:41.580 --> 00:45:42.686 A hundred percent. 00:45:42.686 --> 00:45:45.684 And it could happen to you just as easily as anybody else. 00:45:45.684 --> 00:46:22.045 Yeah. And like COVID was a big, you know, that was a huge, uh--I think the way I like to, at least I've thought about it and the way that it kind of looked to me was an accelerating event, meaning that it kind of accelerated the, you know, whether a brewery was gonna do well or--Like, you know, I think unfortunately a bad example, or a good, bad example would be Iron Fist. Iron Fist was kind of trailing off there for a bit, but after COVID it was just pretty much done. You know, it kind of accelerated that. I think if COVID didn't happen, they would've limped along for a couple more years, maybe. But I feel like-- 00:46:22.045 --> 00:46:22.605 Hard to say. 00:46:22.605 --> 00:46:25.804 Yeah. I feel like COVID kind of accelerated that. 00:46:25.804 --> 00:47:08.434 I--well, I think it did for a number of breweries, but then we also had a whole bunch of breweries that were in process. They would already, you know, bought--things were already ordered and stuff like that. So it was, well, either we dump everything we've done so far and just take this massive loss--or hope, because who knew how long COVID was going to last, you know, people took the gamble and unfortunately now those gambles and the loans and everything else, they're starting to catch up with everybody. So we're seeing this horrible downturn right now, which just breaks my heart. Every day it seems like there's somebody else. I'm just like, no, not another one! But, you know, if you prepared properly or through the luck of the draw, whatever, some are gonna make it and some aren't, unfortunately. 00:47:08.434 --> 00:47:08.445 Yeah, absolutely. 00:47:08.445 --> 00:47:30.804 So again, the maturing of our industry locally. And I think that if we looked at other regions, we'd probably see a lot of the same thing. Areas that became hotbeds of brewing before we did in California or whatever, we'd see that they've gone through the same sort of cycle, so it's not just us, so that it just, we're here. So it really hits us hard. 00:47:30.804 --> 00:47:42.445 Well, yeah. And, San Diego is such a tight-knit brewing community too. It's like, you know, you hear about, it's like, oh, did you hear that? Rouleur closed. Did you hear about this? And you're like, oh, yeah, I met all those guys. I know them. 00:47:42.445 --> 00:47:57.635 Yeah. I went to Rouleur's last day and, you know, Tomme Arthur was there, Paul Sangster was there, Chris Banker was there. I was seeing all these people that, you know, haven't seen 'em recently, for whatever reason. And it was kind of like, well, it's great to have an old home week, but it's a terrible reason to have an old home week. 00:47:57.635 --> 00:47:59.804 Right. I know. 00:47:59.804 --> 00:48:22.034 So, yeah. But we--we'll pick up and move on, I guess. So speaking of moving on, the little note I made to myself was, when I've been over at Stone, I have been stunned by the speed at which everything's bottled. And I understand that stuff is pulled off the line like every five minutes and checked for quality control? 00:48:22.034 --> 00:48:23.744 Mm-hmm. 00:48:23.744 --> 00:48:29.125 How do you manage it at that speed? I mean, that was just stunning to me. 00:48:29.125 --> 00:48:54.885 Um, I mean, I've seen it happen where there's like times where I went to like, on a tour of the Budweiser facility up in Van Nuys. And they run about twice as fast, if not three times as fast as what Stone does. It--there was a guy on the line, just like looking around, like, oh, looks at the time, says it's about time for collecting a sample. And you just (makes a "tchew" sound) and it just, it's like just second nature to them. He doesn't even do that. 00:48:54.885 --> 00:49:06.844 But then you've still gotta run it through the process. And what if it's bad? What if you do have to pull it? How do you find it? In all that stuff that's already, you know, all this other stuff's gone through in the time it took you to do the quality check. 00:49:06.844 --> 00:51:35.465 Well, I think that's the thing about most beer issues, at least from, like non-sour beers. Like non-barrel-aged sour beers is that if there is an issue, then that's why you drew a lot of--you try to find the quality issue earlier on when it's less expensive to do something about it. So, like with the ingredients, try to do as best as you can as a brewery, depending on, as like how big you are. You know, like friability of malt, you're looking at the quality of the water, making sure there's no chlorine in there. You know, hops themselves, you do sniff tests, and you make sure that's stored well. So once it goes through the process, then at certain points it'd be like, well, if the ingredient's bad, we're just not gonna brew it. Which is, you know, it sucks, but at least we're not gonna like, spend that much money. If we already bought the ingredients, that's one thing. But as soon as you start investing time and labor into it, then it gets more and more expensive. So hopefully by the time you actually put it into a bottle, you know exactly what the quality is gonna be on there. But you still gotta do those checks as due diligence. So the thing about most beer is that if there is an issue with the beer itself, it's as a result--it's like, it's gonna be a systemic issue. Like, with that batch, and not necessarily with like these, like three boxes over here. That you have to, it's like a needle in a haystack, what to call it. And so that's why you try to take samples during fermentation, do taste tests before you send it to the filtration or what, centrifuge, whatever you end up doing with the finishing process of the beer. And then once it's in the bright tank, you also take samples before it's packaged. Uh, for taste testing and approval. And that's kind of the final go/no go. And then you taste it after it gets bottled or canned as well, too, but at that point it's pretty much on a truck that's heading to distribution. So it's a lot more involvement in terms of like doing a recall. If there's an issue with that. So typically if it's a off flavor issue you catch it early enough. Usually it's right after fermentation because that's where most of the off flavor issues may occur. If it's during the pr--and then you take samples, at least on our size, we took microbiological samples, like samples of it, plated it, see what grew. Made sure it wasn't a beer-spoiling organism or anything there. 00:51:35.465 --> 00:51:38.835 How long does it generally take for something like that to develop? 00:51:38.835 --> 00:51:40.324 Well, so that's, that's a-- 00:51:40.324 --> 00:51:43.034 Coming from a non-scientist person, I have no idea. 00:51:43.034 --> 00:53:59.635 Well, no, it is actually kind of complicated because when you take--so I take a sample from, you know, let's say a bright tank. It's about ready to be packaged. I grow it, and look at it and there's some concerning cells that grow up there. It looks like there might be lactic acid producing bacteria on there like lactobacillus or pediococcus. That's immediately sends things, red flags up in my head. So then I inform, you know, my bosses to say like, Hey, I'd like to put a hold on this and do maybe some forced aging to see if it'll actually express itself. Sometimes you see these organisms and they grow on the plate, but they might not necessarily grow in the beer. Um, and with like a lot of--and that's where like a, I think a lot of breweries went hard on IPAs is that IPAs have a lot of hops in them, they're usually a little bit higher in alcohol, which would inhibit growth of bacteria like that if their process wasn't as clean. If you're making lagers, that's a lot harder because it's lower alcohol, it's lower bitterness, IBUs, which it also inhibits growth and bacterial growth. And so if it was like a lager that I found this in, I'd be like, yeah, we're not selling this. But if it was an IPA, I'd probably put a couple, like, you know, I get like--package a few of them put into our incubator for like a day or two and see if anything produces. And, it depends on the beer, but if it, usually, if you don't see anything growing more, or if after you plate it, you don't see any more colony forming units in there, you could pretty much say that it's not gonna grow in it. But that's typically like the bigger issue. And especially we didn't do any sort of, uh, what's it called? Uh, pasteurization at the time, too. That's actually a bigger issue for all the non-alcoholic beers we're making up now, is the pasteurization part of the process. That's the kind of the expense limiting step for it at this point. But, um, but yeah, so that--it might take a day or two, it might take a couple weeks. There's some times where it kind of like caught me sitting up at the time where I released a beer knowing that this isn't--feeling pretty confident it's not gonna grow in it. But then I'm like, well, what happens like six months from now or whatever? 00:53:59.635 --> 00:54:05.744 Yeah. When its sitting on a shelf in a store, especially if they, they're not rotating their stock properly. 00:54:05.744 --> 00:54:08.914 Or keeping at room temperature. Exactly. Exactly. 00:54:08.914 --> 00:54:12.925 Yeah. No, that sort of thing always alarms me. 00:54:12.925 --> 00:54:31.875 Oh yeah. No, it's--that's what keeps you up at night is being a quality manager, is that like, you know, there's that give and take. Like the job of the quality manager is to assess and inform your management about the risk. So, and then see how we can mitigate that risk. And so for-- 00:54:31.875 --> 00:54:36.925 But it's not really your final call. It's gonna be higher ups that are gonna say, we're gonna pull this. 00:54:36.925 --> 00:55:07.565 And it should be. because I'm the one informing them of what the risks are. It's like--and if there's something that's like super high risk, like in terms of like something they want to do, I'd be like, no. Absolutely not. Like I, when I was at Belching Beaver, they kept wanting to do a Radler and without pasteurization and I'm like, absolutely not. Because you are adding sugar to it. Because like sugar and grapefruit juice or sugar and lemon juice. Whatever, which way you go. And if there's anything growing in there, it's going to grow a lot more you know? 00:55:07.565 --> 00:55:09.045 Right. Something's gonna explode. 00:55:09.045 --> 00:55:12.025 And I don't want that. I do not want that. 00:55:12.025 --> 00:55:17.275 No, that's your name on the line plus the company and everything else. 00:55:17.275 --> 00:55:21.224 They called me a spoil sport and I'm like, good! I am. That's my job. 00:55:21.224 --> 00:55:22.724 That's exactly right. 00:55:22.724 --> 00:55:37.385 Like, there's times where I'm like, well, this plate might not grow or might not, but I'm informing you about the risk. I'm, you know, whatever direction you want to go. I'll be happy with. But then there's other ones where I'm like, absolutely not. No, I'm not gonna have my name attached to this. 00:55:37.385 --> 00:55:55.045 Yeah. No, good for you. Stand up for it. So, um, when you went to Modern Times then, in 2017 as Director of Brewing Operations, this meant you were not doing quality control anymore? Or how much interaction did you have with the QC people there? 00:55:55.045 --> 00:56:45.965 I had a lot of interaction. I mean, that was my background. So, you know, I really wanted to make sure that we focused on the QC aspect of it and any sort of money we could invest to help out with that. Modern Times did a lot of barrel-aged beers. And so Morgan Tenwick, who was the QC manager at the time, she was kind of struggling pretty hard with that. So I ended up purchasing more kits and we kind of worked with her on how to do better barrel testing. So when I was discussing before about how, like usually if it's a tank of beers, it's gonna be bad, it's gonna, you know, it's gonna be bad. But with like barrel-aged beers and sour beers, anything you put into a barrel, you have these discreet, like mini vessels, right? And you have to test pretty much all of them. 00:56:45.965 --> 00:56:50.844 Yeah. It's a much more uncontrolled environment because a barrel is wood. It's not-- 00:56:50.844 --> 00:57:17.885 It breathes. It has stuff in it. Yeah. So then that's why you have to pretty much do micro-testing on every single barrel that's going into a batch. That way if you find something in one barrel, you can leave that out of the blend. And so that's what we ended up doing for the barrel-aging program at Stone, after we kind of got hit on a few of the like big infections that came out of it. You know, we--because if as soon as you dump that infected barrel into the blend its-- 00:57:17.885 --> 00:57:18.405 Oh yeah. The whole thing's gone. 00:57:18.405 --> 00:57:31.000 Exactly. So that's what we ended up doing there. So I helped out with that a lot. Because that was like low volume, but high margin stuff for us. So we wanted to do that. And then-- 00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:35.596 And, Modern Times's reputation was really, is really reliant on a lot of that barrel-aged stuff. 00:57:35.596 --> 00:57:35.606 It's huge. 00:57:35.606 --> 00:57:45.105 I have several friends that are members and they just, you know, when the barrel-aged, you know, some of 'em have got massive cellars of the Modern Times barrel-aged. 00:57:45.105 --> 00:58:55.525 Oh, it's huge. Yeah. And it was really good too. And so that was one of our big priorities. The other beers, like, I mean, that was pretty much we could handle like the normal production stuff with our IPAs and whatnot. Um, the, yeah. My biggest adjustment was like actually caring about the budget. I mean, I always cared about the budget when I was on the quality side. But it was like, how do I, you know, they gave me this money. How do I spend that? What new equipment do I need? What--do I need to hire somebody else? Stuff like that. Instead of being like, okay, here's the budget. How do I deal it out to like, quality? How do I deal it to brewing and packaging? And so that was a big adjustment for me. And then of course, all the other things that happened during that time, that's when Modern Times is blowing up. They bought the Commons Brewery up in Portland. And so I had to go up there to help set them up. And you know, I think, Tim (Kamolz) and Andrew (Schwartz) did a lot of that work, and Matt (Walsh), who moved up there to take over that position as a brewer up there. And so I do a lot of that. And then we opened up downtown LA location, and then we-- 00:58:55.525 --> 00:58:56.844 There was a lot of expansion. 00:58:56.844 --> 00:59:22.804 Oh. So much expansion. And, you know, that's--it kind of got to me. Plus I was still living up in Vista, so I had to go all the way down to Point Loma all the time on that. So, and then they kind of did like a whole kind of reorg. And so I got, you know, thrust out of my position there. And then I, but I already was kind of looking at leaving too. So it was, it was good timing. And then that's where I went to Belching Beaver after that. But. 00:59:22.804 --> 00:59:29.000 Okay. So now Belching Beaver, again, you're going back to more quality management. 00:59:29.000 --> 01:00:54.074 I learned my lesson that I think, well, I could have done I think a good job at that position as a, well, DOBO, Director of Brewing Operation. But it was just getting to be a lot for me. Plus I wasn't really, you know, I think Modern Times was hurting by that time with all the expansion and it really just came to a forefront. I think after like, not only COVID, but the rat magnet thing that happened too after that. So, but the, uh, but yeah, going to Belching Beaver was, you know--it was like going like, kind of going back down again in scale. And it was very much like a family run, you know? It is, it was still a family run place and all that. But yeah, just a, they were having a lot of quality issues and they needed somebody to kind of with an experienced hand to help set things up in terms of their quality systems and do the micro testing. And, because they were selling a lot of beer to China, especially the peanut butter milk stout. And that was really super popular in China. So they wanted to make sure that, you know, and Chinese are very--they will try to get as much out of you as possible for as little money. It's kind of their business, way of doing business. And so when they were having a lot of quality issues going there, I found a lot of where the issues were coming from on the bottling line, because they only wanted bottles. They didn't want cans over in China. 01:00:54.074 --> 01:00:58.355 Well, when I think of Chinese beer, everything I can think of is in a bottle. 01:00:58.355 --> 01:01:48.005 Yeah. Mm-hmm. They like it. And you know, I think they have a big recycling program for glass bottles there. So like, we send those over and it was fine, but it was just, it was, you know, they--I had to be the kind of interface on the quality side. They take it very seriously there. And so I was like showing them what we were doing, where the issue came from, how we're resolving it, being very transparent with them kind of as a, you know, since we're the supplier, they're the customer, we wanna make sure that they basically saddled us as I'm using in my new industry, a supplier corrective action where I could actually like, basically tell them exactly what we were doing to resolve some of these quality issues and being very forefront with them, upfront with them, but also holding them accountable for how they store our beer. Because-- 01:01:48.005 --> 01:01:56.125 That seems to be a big problem with the imports. Or exports that we're putting out to other countries is how it's being handled on the other end. 01:01:56.125 --> 01:02:27.164 Well, because they, because, and they were--they didn't know much about the beer and how it should be stored. So I kind of educated them on that. So then they can, because the distributor, that distributor of beer, so then they can tell their customers when they come back for a, you know, as a complaint, the distributor can come back and be like, how did you store it? And it was like, did you transport this case of beer on the back of a scooter up this mountain after sitting out for like three days in like the sun? You know, it's not gonna taste the same as they remember it. 01:02:27.164 --> 01:02:29.324 How true. 01:02:29.324 --> 01:02:33.565 Yeah. And that's what we had to like, really deal with, was like-- 01:02:33.565 --> 01:02:40.034 Well, I mean, I'm sure people don't think how their actions can affect a product. 01:02:40.034 --> 01:03:13.244 Yeah. Well, and craft beer over there is very new. And or, and the beer that they were used to is the mass produced stuff from like, Snow and some of the other imports in the area. You know, coming in, but not American craft beer which is a lot more sensitive. We don't at least at that point, pasteurize our beer, which helped, you know, stabilize it, but also affected the flavor. Like the non-pasteurized stuff I think tastes better because it doesn't get cooked a little bit. You know, it's not designed for that. And so. 01:03:13.244 --> 01:03:19.525 Well, and that's the argument Coors has made for all those years, is we don't pasteurize so you get a better tasting beer. So, you know. 01:03:19.525 --> 01:03:21.474 Yeah. I think they still pasteurize a little bit. 01:03:21.474 --> 01:03:22.085 Yeah. It's-- 01:03:22.085 --> 01:03:24.474 But not the--that brand. 01:03:24.474 --> 01:03:32.454 Yeah. No, I remember their ads from when I was little. But anyway, so Belching Beaver, you were there during COVID? 01:03:32.454 --> 01:03:33.784 I was, yes. 01:03:33.784 --> 01:03:35.045 How did that work out? 01:03:35.045 --> 01:04:06.525 Um, you know what it was--I mean, we were all, it was a very confusing time whether I would get like furloughed during that or whatnot. But, with--at least we were considered an essential business, so we ended up doing a lot of production during that time. And actually our production increased significantly because like a lot of other breweries that were more reliant on taproom sales, we weren't as much. 01:04:06.525 --> 01:04:08.614 Right. You were already canning and-- 01:04:08.614 --> 01:04:09.490 And distributing. 01:04:09.490 --> 01:04:22.045 --distributing a lot of your stuff, which was very different because a lot of the smaller guys had only been tap rooms and they had to suddenly turn around and get canning equipment or a mobile canner or something to keep them in business. 01:04:22.045 --> 01:06:38.474 Absolutely. Yeah. So that was kind of the big turnaround there was that we were able to distribute to, you know, we used the Reyes Brothers (Reyes Beverage Group) distribution, and they got us into grocery stores a lot and our beer sold really well in the grocery stores. So actually, COVID was pretty decent to us, actually pretty good. I think the, obviously the restaurants that we had, the one, the pub in Vista and then the downtown one in downtown Vista suffered a little bit because of that. But after all, kind of like more restrictions were lifted and you can do outside seating and all that it was, you know, it turned out okay. But the beer definitely was helping us survive that and we actually did really well. That was like our biggest selling as far when I was there, it was actually during COVID in terms of like distributed sales. Which was actually pretty cool. So, but yeah, I mean, it was, it was weird, like wearing masks around the place. Really not knowing what sort of, I don't know, like what, like early on what actually was like the vector of contaminant--you know, of an infection was until it was like a, it was a, you know, respiratory infection. But what the interesting thing was, is like everything else that we did to try to like, reduce the amount of people working there, we furloughed a few of the brewers, so it was kind of a skeleton crew, but then we eventually had to bring them back on because we were making so much. The, the funny thing was, is just everything we were doing, like trying to help out with some of the other friends and family of the business. We actually had, one of Troy or one of our director of sales's friends is a barber and he came in and took over our bathroom and gave people haircuts in like our single stall bathroom, because they were all, like all the salons and haircut places were closed because they weren't considered an essential business. So that's how he made money, was like every week he'd come by and be like, who needs a haircut? And then we'd just go into the single serve bathroom across the way from my office. And give us haircuts. I got, it was a really nice haircut from him. 01:06:38.474 --> 01:06:42.965 Well, and that's also a bit of a morale boost that you can get yourself tidied up a little bit. 01:06:42.965 --> 01:06:45.965 Yeah! No, we were all looking a little rough there. Around the, the hair so it was-- 01:06:45.965 --> 01:06:52.525 Between all the emotional upheavals and the ups and downs everybody went through, just being able to get your hair cut was a big thing. 01:06:52.525 --> 01:08:36.000 Oh, yeah. No, and that, and that was, yeah. Like, so my wife, that was kind of the impetus of kind of both me and my wife to kind of consider where we'd want to go, you know? And beer kind of wasn't looking to be that direction. She was working at The Confessional at the time and in Cardiff. And of course they shut everything down was like supposed to be to go only, although she made exceptions for really good customers that come in and hang out, like socially distanced inside, but still just hang out and drink their beer at the bar, like a normal person instead of like having to go beers go out the front door. But, yeah, she--they had to set up the out--and then once they were allowed to do outside service, they had to set up these tables and then break 'em down again. So they wouldn't get stolen. And it was really like taking a toll on her. And we were watching a lot of Star Trek during that time. And she was like, man, I wanna be a programmer! And I was like, oh, interesting. Okay. I didn't really expect this, because she loved, I mean, she loved the customer service aspect. Like, we got to be decent friends with a lot of her regulars that were really good and, you know, met the celebrities of the Cardiff area that like to come in. Like Haro, Bob Haro of Haro Bikes. He was a regular out there and we met a lot of, you know, a lot of really cool people, including our realtor that bought our house, we met from there. So like, her wanting to move on, like she was getting really tired of moving all these tables and dealing with the customers that were upset about the whole, like, wearing your mask and-- 01:08:36.000 --> 01:08:38.835 The service staff got so dumped on. There was so many people. 01:08:38.835 --> 01:08:46.614 Yeah. Just because people were frustrated, the COVID thing, and they took it out on the service staff and they're just like, Hey man, we're just here trying to make some money. You know? Because-- 01:08:46.614 --> 01:08:48.925 We're not any happier about it than you are, but-- 01:08:48.925 --> 01:09:28.604 Yeah, but we're the ones that deal with it. But, and I mean, luckily enough of the regulars were, you know, kind of helped settle anyone that's like, Hey, you need to, you need to be quiet because she's doing the best she can. And she is an angel. But yeah. So, but she went to a coding bootcamp and got her certificate and then got a job at Tandem Diabetes. They make the insulin pumps for type 1 diabetes. And she was a tester for the software for the website that, you know, you order your refill kits and everything from. Um, yeah. And she misses customer service. But she doesn't miss the-- 01:09:28.604 --> 01:09:35.645 Day to day-to-day grinding part. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Watching people have to set up and break down tables and then all the cleaning you've gotta do, it's like-- 01:09:35.645 --> 01:09:37.034 Disinfecting and everything. 01:09:37.034 --> 01:09:38.925 Yeah. I got my own house to clean. Thank you. 01:09:38.925 --> 01:09:41.305 Right. I know. And that's, yeah. So I-- 01:09:41.305 --> 01:09:44.234 So yeah. That would get old again, you know, just-- 01:09:44.234 --> 01:10:23.864 Yeah, exactly. So that's what she--so that's kind of like where we were at at that point. And then, about just a little over two years ago was when, yeah, like there was kind of a, the big peak at Belching Beaver in terms of distribution during COVID. And then once everything started opening up again, I think people really wanted to go out. They didn't want to just buy beer from the grocery store anymore. So then our distribution sales fell off, but our restaurant sales went up. But the--I was probably the most expensive employee they had so they had to lay me off at that point, so. Which was good because I was actually kind of getting, I don't know, I like being in places where I learn new things and-- 01:10:23.864 --> 01:10:30.145 It sounded like you were already questioning, you know, you and your wife both. She had made a decision to make a change and, you know. 01:10:30.145 --> 01:10:44.725 Yeah. And I kind of wanted to follow that. So, yeah. And then I went--yeah, I got a job at Hydranautics and that was a little bit too--yeah. I started on Halloween of 2022. Or that was my first day. It was a Monday. 01:10:44.725 --> 01:10:47.000 A a memorable day. To say the least. 01:10:47.000 --> 01:10:53.324 Exactly. No. So, yeah. So that's why I kind of, that's how I got ended up out of beer at this point. 01:10:53.324 --> 01:10:58.604 But while you were in beer, you were teaching at UCSD in the Brewing Extension program? 01:10:58.604 --> 01:10:59.045 I was, yeah. I was teaching-- 01:10:59.045 --> 01:11:01.555 What classes and how, when did you teach? 01:11:01.555 --> 01:12:43.000 Yeah, so I remember like really--so it was when Yusuf first started, Yusuf Cherney first started up that--at least helped start up that program, I wasn't involved at the very beginning of it. Gwen Conley, she and I, she was kinda like my mentor--still is to a certain extent--in the business when she was at Lost Abbey. And so she was teaching the sensory classes at the time. So she actually ended up, when she wouldn't be able to make a class or whatever, she would ask me to be involved and then she would give me a portion of her money for that, which was really nice of her to do that. But I taught a little bit of that. But then, so that introduced me to them. Mitch left and stopped teaching after he left to go open his New Realm place in Atlanta. So then, Justinian took over, Justinian Caire, took over the work production class for about a year or so, but then he quit that. But then, so then they came to talk to me because Gwen recommended me. And so then I started teaching, uh, work production in 2017 -- 2018. And, I did that. At first it was pretty popular, so I did it like twice a year. I think usually like a spring and fall quarter because they did quarters there. And, but then it kind of started trailing off where I do once a year. And then last few years, it was like once every--and I taught during COVID. They wanted to have a class during COVID. So I did a whole entire remote session on Zoom and everything. The Zoom teaching, I'm sure you're all familiar with that process. 01:12:43.000 --> 01:12:44.326 Oh yeah. 01:12:44.326 --> 01:13:34.045 Yeah. It was, you know, I didn't like it just because, you know, people had their cameras off. I wasn't--I usually thrive on the back and forth, and I usually told my war stories about like, oh yeah, you should do this and let me tell you why about this. You know, like, and usually people, especially that want to go start their own breweries are kind of interested moreso in like my war stories than the actual like content of the--at least I think so otherwise they're humoring me. I'm not sure. But I know I got pretty good evaluations for on there. So, but yeah, I taught work production, recipe development for yeah--and my last class was actually, because they wound down that program. They only did the last class to help clean up anyone who still wanted to get their certificate. And that was of July of last year. Now 2024. 01:13:34.045 --> 01:13:34.645 Yeah. 01:13:34.645 --> 01:13:35.125 That was the last one. 01:13:35.125 --> 01:13:38.664 Still not used to last year being 2024. 01:13:38.664 --> 01:13:39.845 Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's-- 01:13:39.845 --> 01:13:49.805 But yeah, I mean, it was nice that they did actually get people through the program rather than just saying, okay, that's it. We're done. You know, we don't care where you are in the program. Ta-ta. 01:13:49.805 --> 01:14:11.664 Yeah. They just wanted to, yeah. There was a lot of gauging interest in who wanted to complete it because I mean, it was a lot of money people spent at that time and they just wanted very much try to get all that back. And it was a nice little supplement for my--like by the time it got around here, I was like, I was okay with letting this go. I mean, I still enjoyed it to a certain extent, but-- 01:14:11.664 --> 01:14:15.925 But you've already got a full-time job. This is on top of that. And yeah. 01:14:15.925 --> 01:14:28.000 I'm not even really in beer anymore. You know, like I have a lot of experience and a lot of knowledge about it and everything, and joy sharing that with people who were interested. But, you know, my last class, I only had three people in there. 01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:28.265 Oh gosh. 01:14:28.265 --> 01:14:34.675 Yeah. And one of 'em wasn't even signed up for the class, so, but they wanted to take it. That's fine! I'm okay with it. 01:14:34.675 --> 01:14:39.295 Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, get your knowledge where you can. 01:14:39.295 --> 01:14:39.305 Exactly. 01:14:39.305 --> 01:14:43.784 So at one point you were also on the Brewer's Association Quality Subcommittee. 01:14:43.784 --> 01:14:44.635 Oh yeah. 01:14:44.635 --> 01:14:47.755 What years was that and what did that committee actually do? 01:14:47.755 --> 01:17:38.244 Okay. Um, yeah, no, I kind of got kidnapped into that. But it's like, usually when these like subcommittees pop up, they always need people to like, kind of fill them. And, you know, there's a few people leaving or whatnot. But, I got in that in like 2019, I believe? Because we had some meetings over COVID. It was all Zoom meetings because it was people from breweries from all over the country. But yeah, I, um, I was involved with it. It was like the subcommittee on quality. So a lot of it was just prepping for any sort of quality talks that the Brewers Association wanted to demonstrate, like the lab, the lab in a--Lab In A Fishbowl. That's what it was called. The Lab In The Fishbowl that they always did at the Brewers Association, uh, the craft brewers conferences. And then anything else that might come up to promote quality from either the American Society of Brewing Chemists aspect, or the Master Brewers Association. And we just kind of discussed about programming and talking and any sort of big quality issues that are coming up. Like the big one they were hitting on at the time was hop creep. We're doing excessive dry hops, for usually hazy beers. Uh, ended up maybe causing some refermentation because of the enzymes that were present in these hops were--because one of the bigger innovations that came out last, like fifteen years or so, was to not kiln hops as hot. Because it, it made it like less fruity. Less flavorful, so. But as a result, some of the enzymes that are naturally present in hops kind of went in and maybe did some disassembling of some of the, like dextrins and all that and started creating more simple sugars inside the bottle or can and causing refermentation. And so it was a big quality issue and like how to avoid that. The other thing that came up, and I quit after I got my job outside of beer--I basically resigned my position. They're like, yep, you're outta beer so that's cool. All right. Well, good luck. Um, but, it was the people making non-alcoholic beer, but wanting to make sure that they know they have to pasteurize it. Because that's a big quality concern. Because not only are you having risk of like bottle or can explosions, but pathogenic bacteria too. Because you don't have alcohol. You don't have that aspect that prevents things like listeria and, you know, E coli. 01:17:38.244 --> 01:17:40.314 It's a full different basket of issues. 01:17:40.314 --> 01:18:02.226 Yeah. So that was a big thing that we talked about there. But it was, it was a good time. It was nice because I felt I was coming full circle. And one thing I forgot to mention was I was an intern at the Brewers Association when I lived in Colorado. And I helped work on the craftbeer.com website. And so I--my boss was Julia Herz, who's very famous in the industry. 01:18:02.226 --> 01:18:04.805 Yes. I've met Julia. 01:18:04.805 --> 01:18:45.845 She is a firecracker, full of energy, and she was very proud that I got a job at Stone. Um, you know, felt like she did her part to get some of these craft beer and evangelists in positions there. So, but yeah, she, that was kind of fun. So I got to be there for a year. And then we moved to out here from Colorado to work in the beer, the brewing industry actually in general. So I felt like going back to the Brewers Association, you know, at least on a subcommittee. I was like, oh, I'm doing things! It's good. I'm back here where I kind of started my little adventure. 01:18:45.845 --> 01:18:52.545 Yeah. Contributing to the industry in a broader scale than just, than just the locals. Not that there's anything wrong with just helping the locals. 01:18:52.545 --> 01:18:54.744 That's a hundred percent right. Yep. 01:18:54.744 --> 01:19:10.284 So, so then you were let go from Belching Beaver and you were already kind of looking to, you know, get out of the beer industry anyway. You kind of realized the financial repercussions of working for passion rather than-- 01:19:10.284 --> 01:19:32.234 Yeah. You know, it's, yeah. It is crazy how I was the Director of Brewing Operations for Modern Times was a very well known, very widely appreciated brewery at the time. And now I'm getting paid about 50% more than when I was--as a Director of Brewing Operations. Which is one of the highest positions in the company, so. It's just the way that it ends up working I think with that. 01:19:32.234 --> 01:19:34.798 Different industries have different pay scales. 01:19:34.798 --> 01:19:35.164 They do. 01:19:35.164 --> 01:19:40.005 It's just the fact of life, sadly. But, are you doing any homebrewing anymore? 01:19:40.005 --> 01:19:48.954 Um, no, I'm not, not homebrewing. I did get a little still, so I've been kind of home distilling. 01:19:48.954 --> 01:19:54.484 Okay. So you're kind of going, I mean, we are seeing more and more distilleries popping up. 01:19:54.484 --> 01:20:29.000 We are. Just, I mean, between you and me, it's just easier to distill because you don't have to worry about the fermentation quality or anything. You just, especially if like, I don't wanna spend like a weekend doing homebrewing anymore, just I'd rather do things around the house. Maybe play video games, but, you know, I'm not a into the, like, spending your weekends, like slaving over hot, you know turkey fryer burner, like I used to. But I do like the idea of distilling. I mean it, like--and it's all stovetop too. The way I do it. So it's, you know, it's simple. 01:20:29.000 --> 01:20:31.166 Very small batch. 01:20:31.166 --> 01:21:09.364 It's very small batch. Yeah. And so, I make like little, like, you know, like, I call ghetto fermentations of like corn and sugar. Kind of like this, like real moonshine. And I've done like, did a little mash and did some like maybe try to do my stint at like a single malt whiskey essentially. But right now my favorite thing is that they have actually a fair amount of wine in the break room at my wife's work. And so--but no one ever goes through all of that. So we have a bunch of like, half bottles of wine. So I make brandy out of it. 01:21:09.364 --> 01:21:11.784 I was gonna say, you're not gonna drink that are you? 01:21:11.784 --> 01:21:33.484 No, no, no. That's why I just distill it and make a little, uh, a little brandy. And then we put little, um, you can buy from like home brew stores online, like little like swirls or of oak. And then you put that in there. So you have oak-aged brandy. And that's like one of my things I do. 01:21:33.484 --> 01:21:34.274 Oh, how fun! 01:21:34.274 --> 01:22:02.725 It's easy too. Because you just pour a bunch of wine into this, put the lid on, and there's like a little coil and you keep that filled with water to cool it down and just brandy comes out of the condenser. I don't have to do a second distillation on it. It just, it comes around 20% or so. Which is plenty. I've done like the three times distillation ended up with like a mason jar this full of like a hundred and like sixty proof. 01:22:02.725 --> 01:22:04.164 Whoa! Goodness. 01:22:04.164 --> 01:22:13.125 Yeah. I was doing a little bit when I had access to lab equipment, so I was able to measure the potency of what I was doing. As long as I gave a sample to our brewmaster. 01:22:13.125 --> 01:22:20.290 There you go. So, being out of the industry, do you still enjoy any of the local beers? 01:22:20.290 --> 01:22:21.484 Oh, yes. 01:22:21.484 --> 01:22:24.145 Or are you just so focused on your distilling now? 01:22:24.145 --> 01:22:38.125 Oh, no. I'm not. It's like a maybe like once a month thing that I do. But, um, the yeah. Actually our kind of local like watering hole now is Battle Mage Brewing. That's where we go all the time. I actually-- 01:22:38.125 --> 01:22:40.592 I would assume you've walked over to Henebery then? 01:22:40.592 --> 01:22:41.086 Henebery's right there. 01:22:41.086 --> 01:22:43.364 Since they do the rye whiskey. Yeah. 01:22:43.364 --> 01:22:48.204 Yep. Yep. They have like a little, you know, they have a fun little collaboration. 01:22:48.204 --> 01:23:07.204 They're very collaborative. I mean, because I go to Henebery and meet up with friends Friday nights. So they can go down to Battle Mage and get glasses of beer and bring it back to drink it at Henebery. But they can't take the, any of the hard liquors over to Battle Mage. You know, I find that sort of dichotomy very interesting in the, you know, it's like-- 01:23:07.204 --> 01:23:19.000 Just alcohol. It's these alcohol rules, man. It's--they're so arcane and esoteric sometimes, you're just wondering, like, I don't know if you've heard of Yuseff's getting married story? 01:23:19.000 --> 01:23:20.150 No. Mm-hmm. 01:23:20.150 --> 01:23:48.564 Oh, gosh. So, you know, Yuseff being co-founder of Ballast Point then eventually Cutwater. He met his wife, now wife, um, she is the owner, or was the owner at the High Dive. I believe down there. And, you know, they dated and then they wanted to get married and they got married. But when they were processing their marriage license it got denied. 01:23:48.564 --> 01:23:50.414 What? 01:23:50.414 --> 01:24:16.005 Right. And they're like, well, what's the deal here? So it turns out as a result of the legislation that came out after Prohibition, it is illegal, or at least is--yeah, it's illegal or not allowed to have someone who owns a distillery or brewery marry an owner of a bar because they're worried about tied-house. 01:24:16.005 --> 01:24:20.185 Tied-house. That's extreme. That is crazy. 01:24:20.185 --> 01:24:27.965 So she, the, uh, and I totally forgot Yuseff's wife's name. Wife's name. And I'm friends with her on Facebook and everything but-- 01:24:27.965 --> 01:24:30.944 Yeah, and I'm--I know her name and it's, well, it's just like-- 01:24:30.944 --> 01:24:49.505 She speaks German and Spanish. She's lovely. Awesome person. But she had to sell her stake and the High Dive in order for them to officially get married, which they did at Valley High. And it was a whole thing, but they was like, yeah, we tried to get married now part deux, you know? 01:24:49.505 --> 01:24:55.604 Yeah. But the fact that anybody would even dig that up, I mean, we're talking a hundred years ago. 01:24:55.604 --> 01:25:03.164 Right! I didn't even think that. It's like, we know those old laws on the books that nobody enforces anymore. But apparently it's still a thing. They wouldn't allow it so. 01:25:03.164 --> 01:25:03.912 That's crazy. 01:25:03.912 --> 01:25:09.725 I know. I--it was kind of crazy to, I don't even know how they found out. Like how would you look that up? Like really? 01:25:09.725 --> 01:25:09.928 Yeah. 01:25:09.928 --> 01:25:14.244 I mean, because usually it's like, there's this person, there's this person, or you related? No, okay's. Let's do this. 01:25:14.244 --> 01:25:22.284 Yeah. Really, you know, you've done your blood tests and fine, you know? Great. You're now legal. So, oh, that's amazing. I hadn't heard that story. 01:25:22.284 --> 01:25:25.849 No, that's one of my favorite stories to tell, especially for history buffs. 01:25:25.849 --> 01:25:31.085 Well, it's a perfect example of how arcane our laws are and how they need to be cleaned up. 01:25:31.085 --> 01:25:31.704 A hundred percent. 01:25:31.704 --> 01:25:53.835 And of course, you know, with former President Carter passing away at a hundred, the fact that he actually gave homebrewing that kick to become, start commercializing. A lot of people are bringing that up now. And as you know, a way to remember him, you know? Oh, yeah remember Carter was the one that, you know, made home, homebrewing able to go commercial and stuff. 01:25:53.835 --> 01:26:08.614 Yeah. My dad was never a Jimmy Carter fan. Because you know, during--he was in the military at the time and he did a lot of pay cuts for the military. Of course, when Ronald Reagan came into play, we went into a lot of debt to give the military pay raises. 01:26:08.614 --> 01:26:09.784 Which they needed. 01:26:09.784 --> 01:26:16.005 But, he always says like, yeah, that's the only thing, good thing that Jimmy Carter did was legalized homebrewing. 01:26:16.005 --> 01:26:18.326 It certainly wasn't the fact that the brother brought up Billy Beer. 01:26:18.326 --> 01:26:21.164 Yeah. I was like. I was gonna say, I think it was more like his brother. Yeah. 01:26:21.164 --> 01:26:26.234 I think he had to apologize for Billy's beer. 01:26:26.234 --> 01:26:26.244 Billy Beer! 01:26:26.244 --> 01:27:03.305 Yeah. That's wild. Oh, Rick, this has been absolutely wonderful and very intriguing seeing your path through the ins and outs of the San Diego brewing industry from being brewer, but also working it through quality control. Because I think quality control, well, even proper packaging, those are unsung heroes. You know, if you don't treat the product right, it's not going to fly. And especially now after COVID with everybody expecting everything to be packaged, it makes a huge difference. 01:27:03.305 --> 01:27:55.814 No, it's, um, I think that's one of the biggest hurdles that many breweries run into is like really taking it seriously. You can't just like, put things in bottles or cans like you did when you were homebrewing. You really have to think about like, the steps that it takes to get there in order for it to be considered a high quality product. Going in. And of course quality is subjective. It really is. But the fact is, is that, you know, and of course the joke is that, quality is subjective, but it is the same definition as porn. I know it when I see it. You know. Or I know it when I taste it. So it's, you know, it's been hard at certain points to get to that point because a lot of breweries don't take quality issues seriously until it really seriously affects them or their brand. 01:27:55.814 --> 01:28:00.345 And some don't ever take it seriously. And that's the reasons they're no longer open. 01:28:00.345 --> 01:28:01.354 Exactly. Yeah. 01:28:01.354 --> 01:28:04.034 I mean there are some names I could name and I won't. 01:28:04.034 --> 01:28:29.354 Oh yeah, no, same, same. Yeah. But it's always the--it was always the case where if I knew they were trying to take it seriously and sometimes they just didn't either have the financial or the scientific expertise to go through it or the experience to do it, then it's like, I'll take you way more seriously because you want to, instead of some of these breweries that take pride that they don't, sometimes. And there was a few of those. 01:28:29.354 --> 01:28:34.854 Yeah. So, well, on that note, I will end the recording. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BlankemeierRick_DownieJudith_2025-01-03.xml BlankemeierRick_DownieJudith_2025-01-03.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Blankemeier, Rick. Interview January 3rd, 2025. Description An account of the resource Rick Blankemeier was a quality manager at Stone Brewery from 2010 - 2017. Rick and his colleague, Robbie Chandler, were the first to win Stone's internal brewing competition which was called the Stone Spotlight in 2014. Rick and Robbie's beer was called Sprocketbeir and it was brewed and distributed nationally as part of the competition. Blankemeier was also the Director of Brewing Operations for Modern Times from 2017 - 2019 and the Quality Manager of Belching Beaver from 2019 - 2022. He also taught a brewing course at UCSD. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-067 Subject The topic of the resource Brewing industry Stone Brewing Co. Belching Beaver Brewery Modern Times Beer + Coffee Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- Quality control Brewing industry -- Accidents Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-01-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rick Blankemeier Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Robert Sheehan Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marco University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Rick Blankemeier License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Brewchive(r) Community history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1498564f1d3d6285c3208cc178e223fb.pdf f1b8f51c40feae933ebcff6608d835fc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Blankemeier, Rick. Interview transcript, January 3rd, 2025. Description An account of the resource Rick Blankemeir was a quality manager at Stone Brewery from 2010 - 2017. Rick and his colleague, Robbie Chandler, was the first to win Stone's internal brewing competition which was called the Stone Spotlight in 2014. Rick and Robbie's beer was called Sprocketbeir and it was brewed and distributed nationally as part of the competition. Rick was also the Director of Brewing Operations for Modern Times from 2017 - 2019 and the Quality Manager of Belching Beaver from 2019 - 2022. He also taught a brewing course at UCSD. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rick Blankemeier Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Robert Sheehan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-01-03 Subject The topic of the resource Brewing industry Stone Brewing Co. Brewing industry -- Quality control Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Belching Beaver Brewing Modern Times Beer + Coffee Brewing industry -- Accidents Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Rick Blankemeier Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BlankemeierRick_DownieJudith_2025-01-03_transcript Brewchive(r) Community history