20 10 212 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Sheehan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David Taitingfong OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_access_2024-08-30.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Taitingfong, David. Interview August 30th, 2024. SC027-083 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM csusm Guam ; San Diego (Calif.) ; Chamorro language ; Decolonization ; Colonization ; Language revival David Taitingfong Robert Sheehan audio file TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_access_2024-08-30.wav 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/7dcf86c4fe6bc8b429316d83d49b9a41.mp4 Other video This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro 0 Introduction Dabit (David) Taitingfong sits down to discuss Chamorro, indigenous Guamanian, culture, heritage, and language. Chamorro ; language ; culture Guam ; Chamorro 0 23 Early Childhood and Growing up in San Diego David talks about where he was born and his early connection to the Chamorro community and culture. 0 183 Visiting Guam for the First Time David discusses how his first visit to Guam and his ancestral village, Yona, impacted his cultural and language learning process. 0 592 Colonial Occupation of Guam David talks about the history of colonialism on Guam and how that has affected the culture and the Chamorro language. 0 1481 Fluency vs. Literacy in Chamorro David talks about the two orthographies in the Chamorro language and how some Chamorro elders are only fluent in Chamorro and lack any education in Chamorro literacy. 0 2007 Chamorro Social Media David discusses how he created his Instagram page which is dedicated to teaching Chamorro language and culture. 0 2515 How the Chamorro Language Creates Connections within the Chamorro Community David talks about how his language learning process has reignited his family's and friend's interest in speaking Chamorro and learning more. 0 Oral history David Taitingfong is a member of the Chamorro community and involved with the group Prugraman Sinipok, which teaches a two week Chamorro language immersion program. David describes his involvement with Prugraman Sinipok and how his interest in sharing the Chamorro lanugage and culture has shaped his life. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:10.000 So today is Friday, August 30th, 2024. My name is Robert Sheehan and I'm here with David Taitingfong for an oral history interview with Cal State San Marcos. How are you doing today, David? 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:11.999 I'm good. How are you? 00:00:11.999 --> 00:00:23.000 I'm doing well, thank you. Thanks for being here with me today and dealing with our technical difficulties. Um, if it's all right, I'd like to start with your childhood, um, and your family. Could you tell me a little bit about where you grew up and how you grew up? 00:00:23.000 --> 00:01:24.000 Yeah, so I was born and raised in Southern San Diego. Um, my parents, we lived in Otay Mesa, which is real close to the border, about two or three exits away from the border. But because my parents had to work, we actually used my dad's mom's address as like, this is where we'll go to school. That way after school, I can go to my grandma's house. And so my childhood mostly was waking up, getting up, getting dropped off in a completely different neighborhood, like 30 minutes away. But that meant I got to be with my cousins because we all kind of went to the same, we all went to the same elementary school then like one or two middle schools, and then we branched out from high school. But, um, me and my brother, we did that growing up. Um, so that was more in Southeast San Diego. The, it was in the, the Jamacha neighborhood, which is near Skyline, which is, I mean, overall just, yeah, Southeast San Diego. And so that's where, that's where like most of my childhood was, honestly. 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:32.000 Okay. And other than your nuclear family, did you have any sort of connection with the Chamorro community, uh, outside of your family? 00:01:32.000 --> 00:02:24.000 Yes, very much so. So my grandma, my dad's mom, um, in the neighborhood she lived in right next door was her cousin, and across the street was her cousin. And then down the street was my mom's sister. And then around the corner was like my mom's aunt. And so it was just, it felt like I grew up around the community a lot. And then also the thing I remember a lot is in Southeast San Diego, in the Lincoln area, there's a club, The Sons and Daughters of Guam's Club. I think it used to be, I don't know if it used to be called the San Diego Guam Club, but either way, the initials work out the SD Guam Club. And every year they host like little fiestas for the patron saint of each village on Guam. And the saint where my mom's mom was from. 00:02:24.000 --> 00:03:01.000 That fiesta always happened around my birthday. And so that's where I, I would say I got most of the interaction with the Chamorro community at large was going to the fiesta, going to the fiesta, which was for the village of Yona, the village of Yona and Guam's. They call it the south. It's like the middle south, but it's where I would say I feel most mostly attached to. 'Cause it's the fiesta we always went to, and it's my mom's side. And like traditionally culturally, Chamorros' are matrilineal. And so for me it's like, I feel like I've always gravitated towards my mom's side at least later on. For sure. 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:04.000 And have you ever visited, is it Zonia? Yona? 00:03:04.000 --> 00:04:03.000 Yeah. Um, yeah, so I , I went to Guam two years ago, maybe for the first time in my life. I was supposed to go there for a language immersion program. I wasn't able to make it in time. I got there the day it ended and then I was like, you know what? My cousin was in it, let me just spend time with her. And then I got COVID and we all did actually. So I spent my entire trip with like five people, the same five people. But I was able to go to the village of Yona. I have a cousin who still lives there. I was like, I don't know if I should visit you because I got COVID. She's like, oh, I had it two weeks ago. You're fine. Like, come here. I have gifts for you . So I was able to visit, uh, I don't know exactly which parts within the village, my mom's side is from, but my cousin from my mom's side, she was there. So she showed me a little bit of her land and I was like, okay, this is cool. I, I'm, I actually going back next year. 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:10.000 Oh, very nice! It seems like a good way to connect back with family and cultural roots and stuff like that. Can you describe the village? 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:59.000 Uh, you know, not entirely, because again, like when I had went, it was kind of like, I don't know if I should, my cousin was like, just come on through. But where she lived most of the houses, it was like a house, and then I would say a good chunk of land around each house. Because even when she invited me, she's like, you come over and see the ranch. And I was like, what does that mean? You know? And sure enough, we go there. It's like she has a house and I mean, I'm not even good with geography, but she definitely had enough land that I could probably do like, maybe it was like two basketball courts side by side. And she's like, yeah, this is like, we grow stuff and catch pigs here sometimes 'cause they try and eat all her stuff. 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:34.000 But it's, yeah. And I want to say actually where she lives too used to be a lot of military housing. So it kind of has a feel like that where it looks modern American, but the military have since moved out of that specific area. I don't know if that's how it was, but that's how it felt like to me. Like I pulled up and I was like, okay, like a lot of these houses look like they were like, what's the -- cookie cutter? You know? Um, 'cause you go to other parts of Guam and it's not like that, like houses kind of tend to look different. 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:37.000 And there's a big military presence on, on Guam, correct? 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:52.000 Yeah. Yeah. Biggest I think would be [US] Air Force and Navy and I know they're building, or no, they've already built a Marine Corps base there, which I mean a department of the Navy. 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:58.000 How do local Guamanians and Chamorros feel about the United States military on Guam? 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:48.000 It's a, it's a mixed bag, I would say. Because after World War II, everyone was split. I know on my dad's side, they were more grateful. So there was, there's a story of a man, I believe his name was, Robert? Robert Tweed? Well, I just know his last name's Tweed. And he was one of, he was an American, service member who was hiding from the Japanese. And a lot of families helped him. My dad's mom, her family was one of the people who had helped him, like, helped him hide until more reinforcements came and stuff. And so I know on my dad's side of the family, they're very much grateful for that. I never really got much war stories from my mom's side. I don't know how they feel about that. 00:06:48.000 --> 00:07:26.000 But I would say where I'm at in my life now, most of my peers, most of the people I associate with are against it for sure. In the sense of like, at least against it in the sense of if you want to use our stuff, at least ask. 'cause that's currently not the relationship, right? It's pretty much anything at the federal level kind of just kind of just goes, GovGuam [Government of Guam] does a lot of stuff, but if the military's like, Hey, we want to do this. I think one of the requirements that they have to do is just like, conduct studies, but they conduct the study. So it's like, it's kind of kinda weird. 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:27.000 Who's watching the watchers kinda thing? 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:29.000 Yeah. . 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:35.000 Okay. Can I rewind a little bit back to high school? What high school did you go to? 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:41.491 I went to Morris High School, also in Southeast, skyline area. 00:07:41.491 --> 00:07:45.000 Okay. And was there a large contingent of Chamorro kids who went to your high school? 00:07:45.000 --> 00:08:47.000 Uh, I wouldn't say it was large. There's definitely, we all knew each other. I would say that for sure. And there was enough of us, because again, the Guam Club is literally down the street from Lincoln. Lincoln, while I was in high school, had closed for renovations. And so all the kids who could have went there had to go to other schools. A lot of 'em went to Morris. And I did meet a lot of Chamorros that way. And then because again, of the big military presence on Guam and the other island, on the other northern islands, kids tend to find their way, either through their -- mostly, I mean, if I was in high school -- through their parents. Right. And so most of the people I met, they're like, oh yeah, like my parent, my family just moved out here 'cause they're stationed here, you know? And so not a lot. Well enough for sure. It was nice. Like, you see somebody, you see, in their papers or in class, they're doing roll call. You hear the last name. You're like, that's, that's a chamorro last name. 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:51.000 Okay. Can you gimme some examples of what a Chamorro last name would be or how you can tell? 00:08:51.000 --> 00:09:50.000 Yeah. So like, my last name is, um, we would pronounce it Taitingfong. And so we have a lot of last names with T-A-I, it's a prefix that means like, without, and there's like a lot of history there, but if you heard someone Taitingfong, Taitano, Taimagung, Taisagui and then like on my mom's side, there's Acadino, and then there's some Spanish ones that are mixed in. But there's like, you, you could, if, so like my mom, her middle, um, her name was Mediola Acadino, and a Mendiola is not technically Chamorro, but if, if you say your name's Mendiola, and I look at you and I'm like you look Chamorro. Um, so there's some Spanish ones, but then yeah, like the Chamorro ones, [Chamorro surnames] there's like Q-U-I was another popular one, like a prefix where I was like, oh, that might be Chamorro. Because that's how the Spanish wrote it. But in our language, it would be like a K-E. 00:09:50.000 --> 00:10:09.000 And just like the US military, Spain has a long history in that area as well. And with language it seems to have bled through a little bit. Yeah. Uh, can you talk a little bit about how that heritage or history happened and how it affected language? 00:10:09.000 --> 00:11:08.000 Yeah. I want to say, I mean, 'cause Spain has, Spain had a presence in the Marianas for a long time, since like the 1500s. But from what I've read, it was primarily through commerce. They didn't have intentions of colonizing the islands. They were just like, we want a port here. We want to stop. 'Cause they were going from Mexico to the Philippines straight. But if they needed to stop, eventually at some point they're like, oh, here's Guam and here's the other islands, the Northerner Islands and stuff. But I wanna say Guam was the main port. It was the biggest island. And in terms of how that language spread, I mean, again, through commerce and stuff, and then through eventual colonization, primarily through a religious means, the language bled through. And one thing that I think is interesting though is that the Chamorros kind of took their words that they liked and they don't, sometimes they don't mean the same thing. 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:51.000 And then we also treat them as if they are Chamorro words, if that makes sense. Like, we affix them as if they're our own words. And one, one of my friends told me, he's like, the true tale of if we have fully adopted a word is if we afix it however we want, there's some words where we don't, we still -- there's certain phrases I think that stay through. Like, um, if someone says sabe dios, like, we took the word dios for God and say Yu'os, but we also don't say sabe. So like in that context of the phrase sabe dios, it's like, well, we kept that otherwise though. Yeah. We just took words and we're like, we're gonna say it how we say it. Hey, fix it how we affix it. 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:56.000 Very interesting! I like you kind of flip it around and say, no, this is our word now. 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:57.000 Yeah, yeah. 00:11:57.000 --> 00:11:58.000 Are you said that happens quite a bit in the Chamorro language. 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:00.000 Yeah. 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:06.000 And did you start speaking Chamorro at home when you were little or later on? 00:12:06.000 --> 00:13:35.000 Later on. Much later. When the pandemic started, my teacher at the time, Dr. Michael Lujan Bevacqua, he was doing a weekend class on Guam at a coffee shop, maybe like at max 10 people. When the Pandemic started, coffee shops closed, he was like, oh, I should just do it online. And a few months before he had actually like, kind of trial ran it with another group, a group that was based outta the east coast of the United States. And he did like a, I forgot how long it was, but he did a few classes online and was like, oh, this is a feasible way to instruct and so -- excuse me --. And so he was like, okay, I'll open it up to the public at large, you know, Saturday Guam time, Friday in the States. And that's when I, that's when I like really found a good schedule because the first time, technically when I learned online with him was when he did that trial run. And it, quite interestingly, I was on my honeymoon and I was like, Hey, can I do this? And she's like, if you're okay with the time difference, like, sure. You know, and so I was up at like 2:00 AM in Barcelona, in a class for an hour, you know? Um, but that's when it started for me. So I really only started 2020. At the beginning of 2020 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:37.998 Okay. Do you consider yourself fluent? 00:13:37.998 --> 00:14:05.000 I would say pretty, I would say, I could definitely hold a conversation with most speakers. Um, like the real, real fluent elders. Sometimes they speak really fast or if they're, if they're chewing pugua, which is a bit, um, beetle net, which is just something like we, we chew out on the islands sometimes, like the words can get jumbled. I can't catch it. Um, but I would say I'm pretty fluent now. 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:12.486 How popular is Chamorro on Guam? Do people still speak it as a primary language? 00:14:12.486 --> 00:15:02.000 Not right now. There's definitely a cultural shift to get there, especially recently, just within the past, I think month, there is a school that's been running for I think 17 ish years. The Chief Hurao Academy, they do [an] immersion program for children. And I know sometimes they try and do it for adults as well. They just got charter status. And so I want to say it's gonna grow to become even more. But definitely on Guam, it's been in a decline. It's been in decline since World War II. And then I can't speak much for the northern islands for Rota or Saipan. I know folks still speak it. Um, and I want to say though, it is still mostly a at home thing. 'cause even when I went there, I was like really excited to flex my tongue. And I was like, okay. 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:39.000 And then I'd go into a coffee shop, you know, I'm just like, hafa adai and they're like, hafa adai. And then like, that's it, you know? Or the first, actually the first time I was, I had a full conversation was I went to a cemetery to look for family, like family graves and stuff. And I saw this lady and I heard her speaking Chamorro to another coworker. So I walk up and I, I talk, I'm talking to her in Chamorro. And it's funny 'cause she's like snacking on something and she's like, oh, nen, how are you? And nen is short for neni, which is just like, it means baby, but, you know, and a term of endearment, oh nen, how can I help you? And I was just like, oh. 00:15:39.000 --> 00:16:28.000 [Speaking Chamorro] Which is like, oh, I'm sorry, like, if you don't mind, can you help me? And she like wiped her mouth and put her food away. And she was like, whoa. You know? She was kind of like -- and I think it's because I looked younger than somebody who she would assume can speak Chamorro. And I also, I think she could tell I wasn't from the island, you know, the way I was dressed and my accent wasn't good, or like, as typical sounding. And so she started talking back to me and she gave me instructions. And I was just like, okay [speaking Chamorro]. And then, yeah. But I could tell she was like, what is going on? Which was when I realized like, okay, out here, it's still, it's still blossoming, it's still, seeds are still being planted and it's definitely not as much. 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:38.000 Why do you think that the Chamorro language was in a decline and it's needed this revitalization? 00:16:38.000 --> 00:17:26.000 So post World War II, effectively it was made -- I don't know the correct, like legal terms -- I wanna say it was made law made mandate. I don't know what legal term they used, but effectively they were saying, you can't speak Chamorro in public. You can't speak Chamorro at schools. And then at schools, if you were speaking Chamorro, you were like fined financially or physically punished. And because of that, when, you know, you go home and that word gets to your family, they're like, okay, well learn English then. Like, well, maybe we'll speak Chamorro more to you at home. Like, I know my grandparents spoke Chamorro to each other, and I know my parents grew up hearing the language, but because of that, it, it just bled out into all of the villages. 00:17:26.000 --> 00:18:22.000 They're like, don't speak this language, it's your language, but don't speak it. And in public, in schools, you know, save it for the home. And because of that, the language -- maybe if it's only being spoken at home, you go out in public -- it's you, you go out in public and now post World War II, life is different, right? There's so many other things happening now. There's industries that are coming to fruition because of post-war. And, now it's like, well, if I can't speak Chamorro, I can't even create new terms for this. So it's like, I can't communicate, oh, we all speak English though, so, or we're all trying to learn English. So it was, I think it was definitely one of those things, 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:26.000 And that's horrible. First off, ut that, that kind of historical trauma, does it still have its kind of finger around moral culture? 00:18:26.000 --> 00:19:15.000 I would say yes. Um, and I actually didn't feel that way until recently. I tend to be on the optimistic side, I tend to feel very optimistic about the future of the language and the future of many things. Because, on my mom's side, I have one native speaker left. I might have -- my mom understands, I know her, one of her other sisters understands. I actually haven't talked with my uncles in a while. Should probably do that -- I don't know if they understand, but I know a lot of, like my mom's generation, they understand but they don't speak it. And so my mom's eldest sister, um, when I started learning, my mom was like, Hey, by the way, Dabit is learning the language, Dabit is what, like David in Chamorro, like Dabit's learning Chamorro, you should talk with them. 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:50.000 And at first my aunt was like, for real, you know? And I think she even said something to me like, really fast. And I was like, Ooh, I didn't catch that. So she said, it began slower. And I was like, okay, I have someone I can at least try to talk with. And when I finally sat and had a conversation with her, she did open up to me. And we actually had a good long cry, which just like it was, we were at a party and then we just kind of sat off to the side talking about our own thing. And she told me something that like her sisters didn't even know, you know? So when I asked my mom later -- like in the moment, I was already crying 'cause it was sad -- And then later I was like, Hey mom, how come you didn't tell me this? 00:19:50.000 --> 00:20:34.000 And she's like, I have no idea what you're talking about. And I was like, wow. Um, and then I found that to be the case with a lot of the elders, at least who I was talking to in my circles. And, you know, I would go to certain events and I would try and find someone who looks like they'll talk to me or maybe someone I already know and I'm like, oh, I can speak Chamorro now, let me try this. And some of 'em were receptive. Um, but I guess it would depend on where you're at. Because recently I had some family file from the east coast and my dad, it's on my dad's side, and he's like, Hey, your uncle speaks Chamorro, you should talk to him. And when I would try to talk Chamorro to him, he would acknowledge me, but respond in English, you know? 00:20:34.000 --> 00:21:24.000 And after a few sentences, he was like, why are you trying to learn the language? It's dead, you know? And I was like, whoa. Like, it was the first time I had an elder say that. So I was like, oh shoot. And so there's definitely, there's definitely people like that. There's definitely people out there and Chamorro's out there who were like, there's no point. Even though they have the, the knowledge and to share. It's the, I would say the trauma is still there. And then there's also the, um -- my, my mom's sister, the fluent speaker, one reason she was hesitant to converse with me -- primarily the way I asked her, I was like, can you teach me stuff? And the first thing she said was, I can't read the language. And I don't know, like the grammar, you know? And so I was like, okay, let me rephrase this. 00:21:24.000 --> 00:22:01.000 Can we just talk in Chamorro? You know, because like, I didn't care, right? Like your my [aunt], your mom, my grandma wasn't a teacher. Her mom wasn't [a teacher], her mom wasn't. Right. Like these official titles I think sometimes can prevent the elders from wanting to pass down the generation. 'cause they're like, oh, I don't know if it's right. You know? But it's like, but if this is the language you speak with all your peers, like it's technically right, right? Like we have grammar based rules, but at the same time, you know, language has changed, languages fluctuate. 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:10.000 Especially with the influx of all the new technology post World War II, we were talking about. How have the Chamorro people in the Chamorro language incorporated those new terms into language? 00:22:10.000 --> 00:23:05.000 I would say there's like three routes that I can think of off the top of my head. The first route is kind of a common sense approach. Like do we just, do we try to make a word for it or do we just call it what it's, right. So like the word bus, they just say bus. For truck, they just say truck for a machete, they just say machete, right? So like there's that where it's like, just take the word and say it in our tone. There's another approach which is like to take -- oh, and actually in that regard too -- it's like, take the English word or take the Spanish word or whatever and just kind of funnel it into the language. I would say the second approach is trying to create the word or change the word using our own words. 00:23:05.000 --> 00:24:37.000 So I would say one example is, -- excuse me again -- Um, the word escuela, we use it for school, but with a lot of my peers, we also have interest in like reclaiming the language, so to speak. And so when possible it's like, can we recreate this word? And so instead of saying escuela, um, I have friends, actually, I think this is a more accepted term now is fa'na'gue yanggen. And the word [speaking Chamorro] means to learn by doing. And then one of my favorite things about the language, we have a circum-fix. Something that encompasses a word. So it's fan and an if it ends in a consonant or fan and yan if it ends in a vowel. And so [speaking Chamorro] means like a place of learning. So there's like, there's that approach. Um, and then the third approach would be, if it's just too complicated, just spell it how it's, so one example is the app WhatsApp, right? Like, Chamorro's love WhatsApp. And if you have to literally write it, if there's like legal text or something, again, you might see escuela, [speaking Chamorro] and blah blah blah. But they'll put a single quote and just write WhatsApp single quote. And that's kind of how they take, that's kind of how we take the approach to the language. It's like what's actually being said? What can we create so that it's said? And then if not -- like no one's gonna translate X-ray. We're just gonna write X-ray. Just leave it alone. 00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:55.000 That's really interesting. I like that. You'd mentioned, um, kind of the grammatical structure of the language and also writing. You said your aunt was not fluent in a written way, but she was in an oral way. Are you fluent in Chamorro writing? 00:24:55.000 --> 00:26:05.000 Yes. And I would actually say maybe more so than some of my peers because in the current moment there are two official orthographies, orthography being the, like the written rules about how we portray the language. And so there's the Guam orthography and the NMI orthography, the Northern Marianas Island orthography. Um, the Guam orthography is a one word, one spelling approach. And the NMI orthography is a one sound, one symbol. And this comes in, I think they both have strengths, they both have weaknesses. Um, but I know both and right now, because, I mean Guam's the bigger island and, I would say they have more resources. I think more people know the Guam orthography than they do the NMI orthography. And so for me, I started with the Guam orthography and I was getting confused at some points. But once I started teaching I realized I liked the NMI orthography more for helping people pronunciate things. 00:26:05.000 --> 00:27:00.000 Because when you read something written in the NMI, it's written how it sounds, which is useful for reading. Um, I would say for new people it's confusing. Because like the word tiningo', which means like knowledge tiningo' that last syllable was like, ooh. Um, but when you start to afix it and change it, like if I wanted to say my knowledge, I would say tiningo'-hu right? And so that difference in sound when you read it, it's like, okay, yeah. But now if you're trying to learn the word, you don't know which one to look up really. Guam doesn't have that problem one word, one spelling, no matter how you say it. Which I think has created interesting variations in speakers already. Like I have friends who only know the Guam orthography and they pronounce words the way they see 'em. And I would say that's due to a lack of speakers around them. 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:33.000 But again, like that's probably just what's gonna happen. There's gonna be like a dialect of folks who learned by reading. Not a problem. But it's just like, it's something I've started to pick up on through my, through listening. Whereas like with the NMI orthography too. If I give somebody something in the NMI orthography, they think they're looking up like three or four words, you know? I'm like, oh no, this is the same word. It's just they spell it based on how it sounds and so that it can get confusing there. Uh, but yeah, to answer your question, I would say I'm pretty good with it. , 00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:45.000 It sounds like it! Your pretty knowledgeable about both just sets of orthographies. Is Chamorro a gendered language? Like Spanish is where there's a masculine and a feminine 00:27:45.000 --> 00:28:15.000 For borrowed words. Yeah. So like for teacher you would say most folks would probably say maestro or maestra. Uh, but we do have like, let's say an indigenous term fafa'na'gue, which isn't gendered at all. Um, and then we have like the word saina, which means like elder. But we do also have mom and dad, Nana and Tata. But I believe even those are borrowed. So in its the truest sense, no, but when we borrow words, definitely. 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:22.000 I see. Alright. Rewinding once again after high school, um, did you go to college? 00:28:22.000 --> 00:29:07.000 Yes. Yeah. So, well, I went to college and then I got DQ'ed, I got academically disqualified, went to community college and then was too proud to pull out loans or ask for money. So I was working. So I did that. School, got kicked out, work. I did that for four years. 2012, joined the military. A lot of irony there. Got out in 2016, went back to school. Well, I went back to school before I even got out. But at 2016, went back to Southwestern College in Chula Vista, got my associates, transferred to Cal State Long Beach. And then I finished up in 2019. 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:08.000 Okay. And what was your degree in? 00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:09.999 Computer science. 00:29:09.999 --> 00:29:12.000 Computer science. And what branch of the military were you in? 00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:13.998 Marine Corps. Yeah. 00:29:13.998 --> 00:29:26.000 Okay. And after you graduated, did you immediately go into the computer science field or was there a time where you were kind of figuring out what you wanted to do? 00:29:26.000 --> 00:30:33.000 So I went right into it because during my last semester, I had an internship when I was at Cal State Long Beach. I had an internship with Northrop Grumman in their, like, aerospace sector. They like renamed it. At the time it was called Aerospace. It might be called something different like space. Oh, it's called, I think now it's called Space Systems. And they have aeronautical systems. 'cause they wanted that elevation difference . Um, but I, so I was doing that. And yeah, it was a mix of like computer science, computer engineering, what I was doing there. When they gave me a job offer, I asked them if I can go to San Diego. They got me one, went down to San Diego, one of the offices in RB (Rancho Bernardo). And yeah, I was doing, I would say it was still like a mix of what I was doing. There was like a little computer sciencey somewhat IT, like some--they call it DevOps. Like it's kind of like the middle boat. And then now I work at Apple and I'm doing like legit software development. 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:44.000 Very cool. Congratulations! And do you meet Chamorro software engineers frequently or Pacific Islanders software engineers? 00:30:44.000 --> 00:31:55.000 Yeah. I wouldn't say frequently. 'cause that definitely whenever I meet even a Pacific Islander in, in tech, it's always like, oh wow. Um, in terms of Chamorro's though, I wanna say the first software engineer I met was through one of Dr. Michael's classes. I'm not, I'm gonna just call him Miget , um, Miget's classes. And he's a software engineer for Costco. I think he lives in the Pacific Northwest. And I was like, oh wow, that's cool. Like, I've never met another one. He's like, oh, have you met Benny? And so he introduced me to another, another guy older than me. I was like, should I call him uncle? I don't think so. But Benny, he's a, he's been a software developer for like 20 something years. Doing mostly like web development. And so I was like, oh wow, okay. There's more of us. But aside from that, I don't think, I know there is, I haven't met this person, but I know someone is running, there's like an online dictionary. They took this Chamorro dictionary and made it into a website. And I know they're running it or like they were given the grant to do it or something. And so I know, I don't know who that person is though. I, I should reach out. 00:31:55.000 --> 00:32:03.968 That's very cool. So they're like a, so it sounds like there's like a network--Or at least loosely? 00:32:03.968 --> 00:32:28.000 If there is, I'm not a part of it yet. I have always wanted to, because even though my interest started in computer science, because I got so deep in the language space, I, I have always wanted to do something in the computational linguistics field. Ever since I started learning, I'm like, man, this would be really cool. But I just haven't because I've been too busy trying to learn the language and trying to teach the language. 00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:48.000 Do you feel like you're close to a point now where you might be able to move towards that computational linguistics? Because from an outsider's perspective, it sounds like you're very fluent and very knowledgeable about the language and how it's structured and you could teach it. 00:32:48.000 --> 00:33:27.000 Yeah, I don't think so. I think it's, to me, it's still a dream just because I have found so much community and love and appreciation for the work I'm doing. Like, just like on social media, you know, or just by meeting with people and speaking the language to them. I think right now, that outweighs my desire to try and beat Google at creating a translate. Because if you go to translate.google.com, they have Chamorro. And in the past month we've been roasting it 'cause it's incredibly wrong. It's so wrong. It's funny. 00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:42.000 Okay. Um, speaking of social media, I noticed that you have an Instagram page that's kind of devoted to the Chamorro language and Chamorro culture and experience. What caused you to want to create that? 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:53.000 There was a time, I think I started last year. So currently I'm on break because I have a four month old at home. 00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:54.000 Congratulations! 00:33:54.000 --> 00:34:32.000 Thank you. But I was like, I'm gonna take a break because I'm probably not gonna have the time. And then my wife's back in school, so it was like, okay, really no time. But when I had started it, my cousin had showed me a video from TikTok and there was a guy, he's not even Chamorro, but I think his wife is Chamorro, and he was just speaking Chamorro. He was a student of the Chief Hurao Academy. He did their adult program. He's like, uh, he's like, I should learn because my kid, I want my kid to learn. And so he had a video and he made stuff he like, was just saying, I think, I don't even remember what the video was about. 00:34:32.000 --> 00:35:14.000 I think it was just phrases. But you can tell from the video that he was on island because he was making references that like, you probably only understand if you're around the culture. And specifically on the island though. And my cousin showed me this and she was like, Dabit, you should do this. You should make videos like you're a good teacher. 'cause at the time too, actually, I was doing my own Zoom class with my cousins, which reminds me, I told them I'd start back up and I haven't, but I was doing that and they're like, you should do this. You're so social, you're so out there. Like, you should just do it. And yeah, that's really it. I just, one day I was like, you know what, here's some lines. Make a video. I put it out there. And then I did it again. 00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:51.000 I don't think it was until maybe the fifth video where people were like, who is this guy? Why are you, you know? And then I had people comment, I had friends who were like, do you write scripts? And I was like, not really. They're like, you should write scripts, blah, blah, blah. They're like, it looks like you're doing all your videos in one take. I'm like, I am. They're like, don't. They're like, just say what you can. Don't stop recording if you mess up. Just like kind of run it back and just stitch things together. And I was like, oh my god. Yeah. This is so much better. Um, and then it's actually funny because I haven't made a video since like four or five months ago. But recently I went to Oregon. They had the first annual, the first ever, I don't know what the correct term is. 00:35:51.000 --> 00:37:01.000 There was a Mariana's Festival in Fair, Fairview, Oregon. And I went there and there's another Chamorro social, um, like social media person who doesn't make language content necessarily. It's like, not the focus, but she's trying to incorporate it. And she was like, we should go around and ask people stuff. I'll ask in English, you ask, you want, and when I checked this morning, I think the video, the video's been up for like a week and it has like over a hundred thousand views. Wow. People are texting my mom and she's like, is this your son? Because it came up on my feed. You know, people are, people are texting my wife, they're like, is this your husband? Like, what? he popped up on my feed? You know? Or like my sister-in-law, she's like, oh my God, look what just popped up on my feed. You, you know? And I'm just like, wow. Um, and yeah, like, man, like practically every comment is like, wow, it's so cool to hear the language. Because at the festival I knew the, I knew like my friends who were there, who were speakers who were in the same classes as me, so I felt comfortable asking them, you know, I was like, yeah, like blah, blah, blah. And people were like, wow, these people, these kids, you know, they look at me and they're like, these kids know the language and Okay. 00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:15.000 It, it's a very cool video. I actually watched it before our meeting today. It's really interesting. And I actually had a couple questions regarding the video. Mostly to do with kind of food and culture and how those two kind of intersect. You have mentioned that one of your favorite foods was apigigi'? 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:19.000 Apigigi' 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:21.497 Apigigi'. And what is apigigi'? 00:37:21.497 --> 00:38:02.000 So it is a, it's a cooked dessert. So you get like coconut shreds. Well, I used coconut shreds. I don't know if some people use the shredded coconut. I'm not sure. Actually. I use coconut shreds. But you put that and then you have, um, we call it mendioka. It's, I think it's tapioca like the starch and stuff. Um, with some leche niyok , which is the coconut milk and sugar, you mix it all together, you slap it in, traditionally a banana leaf and then you wrap it up, close it, you grill it, and then you wait until it closes down and then you can eat it. 00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:03.499 Sounds delicious! 00:38:03.499 --> 00:38:07.000 It is! Yeah. And it's not that many ingredients, you know, so it's like really easy. 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:11.000 And the other dish that I heard mentioned was, um, Kelaguen? 00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:12.000 Kelaguen. 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:16.000 And it sounded like you could have kelaguen with multiple different kinds of protein? 00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:17.000 Yes. 00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:18.998 So what is kelaguen? 00:38:18.998 --> 00:39:18.000 Kelaguen is effectively, it's kind of like an escabeche. That's how we say it. I don't even know what the?...a ceviche? Okay. Um, I think technically the term comes from a Filipino word, kilawin. And their kilawin was, I wanna say more fish based. But yeah, you, you effectively take a protein and cook it in acid. Like that's really all it is. I think. I was actually taught recently that the traditional word before kelaguen was just, um, naynay. And I could see how that can fall out of use. Mm. Um, but technically that, yeah, that it's just cooking something in like acids. So the most popular one is kelaguen mannok or chicken kelaguen. You grill your meat, you chop it up, not too big, not too small. And then you get like, salt, lemon, add your decorations, like your green onions and stuff. 00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:57.000 But effectively the salt also helps cook it. And it come and you serve it cold though, you know, so you, after you cook and everything, you mix everything. You don't serve it, you can eat it the same day. Growing up, my family always did it, and then we ate it the next day. Because it's a bit softer. The first and last time I made kelaguen katne, which is beef kelaguen. Um, I cut it too big. But yeah, it was just that. And then it was like lemon vinegar, soy sauce or something. So I forget all the ingredients I added. Put it in the fridge the next day we were eating it, you know, and I was like, I was like, is this really gonna cook it? And they're like, yes, chemistry, it's gonna work. I promise 00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:05.000 That's great. And when you prepare food, is it a communal thing or is it a single chef preparing meals for everyone? 00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:50.000 You know, growing up it was definitely a communal thing. At least when it came to, I mean, especially when it came to the Fiesta, you're doing a lot of things. You know, at the Guam Club, they have an outdoor kitchen, or they had, I haven't been there in a while, like the kitchen area, but I remember they had a table that was really just like a cutting board. The, the whole table was like a cutting board. And yeah, they would have people grilling, they'd bring the chicken over and you chop it up, you know, you're doing everything and then you pass it on to the next person. Each person kind of had a role, you know. You had people grilling, you had the people tearing the meat off the bone, then you had the people cutting, then you had the people mixing, you know, and then you had the people like, um, setting it aside, preparing it and stuff. 00:40:50.000 --> 00:41:44.000 When I, the last, the first and last time, no, no, no. It wasn't the first last time I made apigigi' I did it for the language immersion program we did here. Prugraman Sinipok. And I taught the class. And so like, that was a communal thing. We had everybody make it. I was worried at first 'cause like, oh, they're not gonna all be the same. But I think it gave it a kind of like, nice little style. It's like, oh, some people made it this way. Some people made 'em real small. Some people made 'em big , you know. And, and I remember when we brought it to the, the following day, there was a picnic for the Guam Liberation. And I brought it and people were so surprised. They were like, nobody ever does this. And in my mind I was like, what? This is the easiest thing to make . And so now it's like something I want to do, kind of a tradition. Like I almost wanna start in my family now. Maybe with just me first, like, oh, I think I can show you how to make it if you like it. Um, so traditionally I would say very communal thing. 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:58.359 And you mentioned your family and bringing the Chamorro culture into your family and making it a part of your own family. Do you speak Chamorro to your children? 00:41:58.359 --> 00:42:50.000 So I try to with our 4-year-old, gonna be five in October. I try to as much as I can with him because he is more cognizant and more responsive. It can be hard, but I know he's getting it. With our baby. I only speak Chamorro to the baby. Sometimes I'll say things to my mom in Chamorro because I know she understands. Not so much with my dad though, because I know his understanding is less. And so I guess it would depend on what it is. Like, if it's like, I'm like, oh, where's mom? I'll say that, you know. But with my mom, I can say like, oh, are you gonna go outside because if you are, can you do this? You know, like longer thoughts. My wife picks up the things I say to the kids. So she knows those words, but I don't talk to her in Chamorro. 00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:52.000 Okay. 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:56.000 And my sister lives with us. She said she wants to learn. She's waiting for me to start teaching 00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:00.000 So you gotta get on it. . 00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:02.994 Yeah, gotta get on it. 00:43:02.994 --> 00:43:09.000 Has your wife or your father or mother, have they shown more interest now that you are so into the language? 00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:23.000 Yes. My mom, especially now that I only speak Chamorro to this baby. And so within the last four months I've heard more Chamorro come out of my mom's mouth than the last two or three years we've lived together. Which is something, you know. 00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:24.000 That's wonderful. 00:43:24.000 --> 00:44:01.843 Yeah. Even if it's funny little things like, did you poop? Or why are you stinky? Let's change your diaper. But because it's the only way I communicate with this baby, I think it makes my mom want to. And my dad will say words like, you're stinky, you know, or you pooped, you threw up. You know, very short things. But definitely again, like the most Chamorro I've ever heard, leave his mouth, you know? Um, yeah. 00:44:01.843 --> 00:44:09.000 That's great! And, you mentioned the Prugraman Sinipok and that's a cultural immersion program. For two weeks or so outta the year, they take students from all over and immerse them in the Chamorro cultural and language. 00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:09.500 Yes. 00:44:09.500 --> 00:44:11.995 And how did that start? 00:44:11.995 --> 00:45:35.000 So this was the third year. This was the first year I helped though. It started through someone else. Uh, her name is June Pangelinan. She lives in like the Bay Area (near San Francisco, CA). Or near there, I would say. But she, it, it was like her thing. She was also a student of Miget's and was like, I think we should, I think we should do a language immersion program. You know, and Miget was just like, if you plan it, I'll do it. You know, 'cause Miget is always down, but in, in the same way. For me, it's like, I'm always down, but I don't want to plan. Like, if you tell me what I can do or give me a spot, I will fulfill that role for however long. I'm just not good at planning though. But yeah. So it was, it was June's like, whole vision. You know, she linked up with Miget and the first two years they actually did it on Guam. And like, so yeah, like that first year I tried to go. It, it didn't work out for me 'cause I was actually in the middle of switching jobs. So when the program was happening, that's when I was going to join Apple. And so it didn't line up. I tried to, I tried to make it line up. I was like, no, okay, I'll leave work, go to Guam, come back, start working. 00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:37.495 Just didn't quite line up. 00:45:37.495 --> 00:45:38.495 Yeah, exactly. 00:45:38.495 --> 00:45:45.000 And how many students in general have you seen the program grow over the last three years? Or has it stayed kind of the same core group of students? 00:45:45.000 --> 00:46:29.000 It's stayed the same number of students. I would say. Like no more than 20, maybe especially the first two years. Because they had to fly to Guam and then pay for the program and then probably get housing if they didn't have family or know anybody out there. Out here, it was less of a, I would say a burden, but maybe less of a interest for some people. Because from my understanding, from what I was told the first two years, I would say we're definitely more culturally focused. Not as much language. This year, there was a lot of language, but we didn't have as much culture. We definitely had culture and they definitely had language, but the offset was there for sure. 00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:34.000 Because it was harder to do here in San Diego. Couldn't go to the same Island towns? 00:46:34.000 --> 00:47:04.000 Yeah. I, we had a Liberation picnic at Balboa Park. They have a house of Chamorros, which is like amazing within itself because usually it's relegated for countries. Right. and then the Guam Club. And then we have local folks whose parents are still alive. And so like, there was a day where we went out, we went down to Chula Vista and, you know, tried to get with them and hear the language come from them. 00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:12.000 Very cool. Is it, is it common that elders will want to participate in the program? 00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:54.000 I would say not common. Definitely not common. We have some elders. We have some elders in the classes that Miget teaches because for them they're like, oh, I know the language, but I don't know how to read it. You know, or I don't know how to write it. So that's what they join for, but they speak the language mm-hmm. So it's like a big benefit to the other students who join. 'cause they could hear it come fluently. But then, and it's always funny too. Yeah. 'cause when I started communicating with, with these folks and when they would write stuff, I'm like, they're literally writing it the way they say it. And to me, that was amazing. You know, it's like, oh, I wasn't sick. 00:47:54.000 --> 00:48:15.000 But yeah,it was really hard. This wasn't my job and I'm thankful it wasn't my job. It was my friend, Clarissa Mangiola, I call her mames, which just means sweet. Reese, it was, it was, it was her job to find folks who would want to participate. And from what she told me, it was really hard. Yeah. 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:17.000 Why do you think that is? 00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:49.000 There's, I think this goes back to maybe the trauma part where some folks might not see use in the language. A lot of times they don't feel qualified to teach us. And I, I think it's part of the approach of the way we approach them, where it's like, can you teach these kids what you know? Or can, you know, impress upon them your knowledge or whatever. And they feel like, well, oh, they don't want to hear me speak because I don't speak like academically or I don't speak professionally. 00:48:49.000 --> 00:49:45.000 I don't speak eloquently. You know, which is to me always been funny because that's not the Chamorro I've ever wanted to learn. Like, I didn't want to learn like a city academic, Chamorro, you know, I wanted to hear the way my grandparents spoke, specifically my mom's mom. When I think back, my dad's mom did kind of feel, she definitely had an accent and stuff, but it definitely felt more proper. And where, and the village she's from is like the capital of Guam, you know? So it's like, very much surrounded by the like American culture, but where my mom's mom is from, considered the south and very much different. You know, more rural, you know, country living, so to speak. And so that, that's when I actually started learning the language. She, my mom's mom is who I picked to model my speak chapter. 00:49:45.000 --> 00:50:04.000 And my aunties are like, that's not how mom sounded, you know. But it's gotten me a lot of compliments from elders. They're like, wow, you're good. Like, where did you learn to speak? You know? I'm like, memory really? Because I don't have any audio recordings or anything of my grandmother. Just kind of what's embedded in me. 00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:07.000 Were you able to speak more with your grandmother while she was here? 00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:36.000 No. So I didn't start learning until 2020. My dad's mom passed in, 2009, 2010. And then my mom's mom passed in 2012. And so yeah, I did not. The closest I would say is my mom's sister. She's still around, thankfully. And every time I get the chance I talk to her in Chamorro. 00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:44.397 If you could have a conversation with your mom's mom, what would you like to talk about? 00:50:44.397 --> 00:51:30.000 Wow. That's a good question. I would probably, I would ask her about her childhood and just start from there. Because there's, when we started learning the language, when Miget started teaching the language, he told everyone, if you have speakers in your family, talk to them. He's like, don't ask them about the war. Do not ask them about the war. You know, he was always very, you know, because it's definitely not something they like to talk about, you know? Um, but I would definitely just be like, where did you actually grow up? 'cause I don't know if she grew up in Yona, it's the village. She repped and claimed, but I don't know if she like spent her childhood there. I would ask her what she remembers about her grandparents or her parents. What her favorite foods were, what her most annoying chores were. 00:51:30.000 --> 00:52:16.000 Things like, what did you do for fun? You know? 'cause that's like another thing that I came to realize was, something that kind of skipped--it would come into this language barrier where the things, as I've talked to other elders, I asked them what they used to do for fun. It's like stuff I wouldn't consider fun. It's like, not stuff I thought they would say. You know, like I had an elder tell me, oh, when we were cleaning, we would race to see who could clean certain-- a board of the house faster. You know, they would like, okay, these are my two boards. These are your two boards and we'll race. And the reason it was fun though, is because for scrubbers, they would literally use coconut shells, you know, the really husky ones and they would just like scrub it. 00:52:16.000 --> 00:53:03.000 They're like, whoever can do it first, you know, wins. And he told me that and I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. I mean, I could see how that could be fun if you're doing it with your siblings. You know, your friends. And so I definitely would like to know what my grandmas liked doing for fun, what her favorite foods were. 'cause they're definitely, I would assume different, you know? 'cause even something like kelaguen mannok, I wouldn't even consider that like an everyday meal because it takes so much labor. It's not, it's definitely not something you're doing all the time. You know, we have like soups for that, you know. If she remembers what kind of music. As I've learned, as I've delve deeper into the language, I've become more aware of cultural things. I'd probably ask her that. I'd ask her if there were any talageros who's in her family, which are like the fisher people who go out and throw the nets. 00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:39.000 If any of her family sang. Kantan Chamorrita, which is like a, it's like a free verse style singing, which I've come to been told is some folks used to communicate like that. Like just through singing they would say the language, they'd be singing what they're doing. And then if the other person knows the tune, they do it back. You know, some kantan chamorritas are meant for competition. Some of 'em are meant to be endearing. Some of 'em are meant to be wooing someone, you know. So I definitely would ask her like very specific her things, maybe village things. But then definitely would like, I'd be interested about the culture, 00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:45.000 That would be a very cool way to communicate with somebody in kind of a song. Call and repeat kind of thing. 00:53:45.000 --> 00:54:33.000 Yeah. When I went to Oregon, actually, when I was hanging out, I went there with two of my-- I went there to visit two of my friends, they live there. They're speakers. They're like, I would consider them my teachers now, you know? And we were out in the city, we were like walking back from dinner or something, and my friend just starts going with a tune, like, you know. And he was like and then he looked at me and I was like, oh, shoot, okay. I was like, you're not done with your verse, but I'll go, you know . And we just, we did that for a good couple of blocks and I was actually surprised. I was like, wow. Like I was able to do that, you know? 00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:35.000 I was like, sometimes they didn't make sense, but-- 00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:48.000 You just stuck with it and you were right there in the, the melody and verse.--and I know we're running out of time here, but did you have anything that you wanted to talk about or anything that you wanted to say? 00:54:48.000 --> 00:55:51.000 I don't know if I have anything specific. Just that I'm very grateful that I'm able to learn the language because I've had tremendous support from my family, from my friends, from my wife, my kids, you know. I know people who struggle to find the time, you know, struggle to fit it within the typical schedules, right? Like Miget's class used to be Fridays at 4:00 PM until-- 4:00 PM or 5:00 PM and 6:00 PM all the way up until 7:00 PM. And then, once November rolls around. We do daylight saving times. Guam doesn't. And so it's like 3:00 PM--, you know, now though, it's Saturday in the States 'cause he does 'em on Sunday, so it'll probably be a little bit easier. But, I just know so many people. There's people who we started in the same classes 2020 January. Right. And I'm so far ahead of them. 00:55:51.000 --> 00:56:53.000 It's, and I don't know if that's a testament to just how deep I went or also how much time I've been able to give because, yeah, like, at the festival I ran into someone and I was, we've been in classes for years and I was, I didn't have a good grasp of how fluent they were, but when I saw 'em, I was so excited. I hugged them really tight and I was like, oh my God. And then I just started going, you know, and she was just like, you're so fluent now. What happened? You know? And so, yeah, like honestly, I'm just incredibly grateful that I've been able to learn as much as I can. And actually recently, well not even recently, it's been since December, I have another teacher who's teaching me stuff too. I would say like deeper context of things because as much as I love Miget's class, there was a point where he has to start over. 00:56:53.000 --> 00:57:25.000 You know, it's like college for him. Gotta start over, gotta start over. And so there came to a certain point where I was like, shoot, I need more. You know? 'cause I definitely don't think staying in his classes forever will benefit you as much as getting the taste. It's like college, getting the taste and then going on. And so I'm just happy that I was able to find other people who also want to go deeper into the language, learn as much as we can. We found a teacher and so, I mean, that's really it. I'm just incredibly grateful. 00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:31.000 That's awesome. We're very grateful for you coming out here and spending the time and giving this interview. So I just wanna say thank you very much. 00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:33.545 Yeah, of course. Thank you. 00:57:33.545 --> 00:57:38.545 Alright., take this. We were an hour on the dot. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials&#13 ; from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_access_2024-08-30.xml TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_access_2024-08-30.xml https://archivessearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Taitingfong, David. Interview August 30th, 2024. Description An account of the resource David Taitingfong is a member of the Chamorro community and involved with the group Prugraman Sinipok, which teaches a two week Chamorro language immersion program. David describes his involvement with Prugraman Sinipok and how his interest in sharing the Chamorro lanugage and culture has shaped his life. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-083 Subject The topic of the resource Language revival Chamorro language Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania Colonization -- Japan Colonization -- United States -- Guam Decolonization -- Guam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-08-30 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f1954c51e658c7c1490af7202f3dbde2.pdf 5ca2c1981c17983bb5b3e2fb65211dd5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. 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David describes his involvement with Prugraman Sinipok and how his interest in sharing the Chamorro lanugage and culture has shaped his life. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource David Taitingfong Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-07-22 Subject The topic of the resource Language revival Chamorro language Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania Colonization -- Japan Colonization -- United States -- Guam Decolonization -- Guam Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English and Chamorro Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. 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Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Linda Kallas Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joanne Tawfilis OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Tawfilis, Joanne. Interview October 31, 2022. SC027-052 01:11:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Military base closures ; United States. Army ; United States. Navy ; Muramid Arts Center (Oceanside, Calif.) ; Mural painting and decoration ; Bosnian Women's Initative ; Srebrenica Massacre, Srebrenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1995 ; Orphanages--Bosnia and Herzegovina ; International Atomic Energy Agency ; Unesco ; Art Miles Project Joanne Tawfilis Linda Kallas mp4 1.0:|18(13)|37(10)|52(10)|63(18)|75(9)|88(4)|102(6)|112(4)|126(7)|138(9)|149(7)|159(14)|169(10)|188(12)|198(5)|208(14)|218(3)|227(14)|242(9)|252(6)|268(6)|278(17)|287(9)|297(7)|310(8)|320(20)|330(11)|348(5)|359(6)|374(6)|384(15)|397(8)|408(13)|417(3)|428(8)|441(17)|451(5)|467(3)|476(18)|486(15)|496(11)|508(12)|519(5)|529(12)|540(11)|550(11)|559(5)|570(13)|579(12)|593(6)|607(11)|621(5)|630(4)|641(10)|655(13)|665(4)|676(5)|690(12)|701(4)|711(13)|728(15)|740(15)|749(7)|766(4)|776(13)|786(11)|798(10)|814(9)|825(13)|841(9)|854(16)|862(8)|953(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b2580fba038f13dc496911c1023b4dcf.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Interview with Joanne Tawfilis by Linda Kallas, October 31, 2022. Linda Kallas ; Joanne Tawfilis 0 45 Early life and childhood Tawfilis talks about her early life, where she was born in New London, Connecticut and offers a brief introduction to her family. Family ; New London Connecticut ; Filipino ; Dad 0 90 Moving and living in California Tawfilis talks about her moving to California, as well as mentions how San Diego County is one her favorite places she has ever been to. It is here where she also discovered her sense of community through the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center. San Diego ; 1971 ; travelling ; retirement ; moving ; Multicultural center ; Oceanside 0 240 Career as an artist Tawfilis talks about how she started her career in art, from doing illustrations with the U.S. Government, United Nations, and civilian sectors. Tawfilis's career included working at the Submarine School in Connecticut, the Navy and country's Bicentennial, and as an International Military Training Coordinator. Tawfilis also speaks to the impact of Chicano Park. Military ; United Nations ; San Diego ; Chicano Park ; Submarine School in Connecticut 0 597 International Work Tawfilis describes her time doing work both for the military and the United Nations. As part of her work with the military, Tawfilis did bas closure studies. Tawfilis was offered a job and moved to Germany, and from there had the opportunity to work in almost every European country doing base closures. Tawfilis also worked for the Vista Volunteer Program and then the United Nations. It is through these experiences that she learned other languages and honed her people skills. It is also through this opportunity that Tawfilis worked in countries going through turmoil and war, such as Somalia, and Cold War Germany, where she worked closely with the constant unrest around there. Military ; Travel ; United Nations ; Germany ; Austria ; Army ; Kettle Falls, Washington ; Europe ; Atomic Energy Agency ; United Nations Environment Program in Nairobi ; Sergeant Shriver ; Peace Corps ; Americorps ; Vista Volunteer Program ; Africa ; Somalia ; AIDS ; Gigiri ; War ; Germany ; Austria ; Cold war ; Berlin Wall ; Army Management Staff College 0 1077 Work with the United Nations Tawfilis talks about her time working with the United Nations, the conditions of U.N. employees that are local nationals, and briefly speaks about why she was car-napped. United Nations ; Vienna ; Austria ; Africa ; Kidnapping ; Bosnia 0 1211 Work in Bosnia / end of her career Tawfilis speaks about the end of her career, close to her retirement. Given a choice of working at the Pentagon or working in Bosnia, Tawfilis took a position as the Director of the Bosnian Women's Initiative (commonly known as the Widows of Srebrenica) in response to the Srebrenica massacre of six to seven thousand men. This choice led her to eventually work in an orphanage, where Tawfilis worked with children in creating art. Tawfilis mentions her TED talk "Painting Outside the Lines" where she goes into more detail on the project. Bosnia ; retirement ; Washington D.C ; Army ; Serbia ; Women ; murder ; TED Talk ; TED-X ; UCSD ; Orange Coast College ; Orphanage 0 1645 Artwork through the Orphanage Tawfilis describes her time working for the orphanage, and explains how working for the orphanage, led her to her passion for art through the children there. Tawfilis also began to work on murals honoring specific tragic events.&#13 ; &#13 ; Orphanage ; Children ; Yesterday and Tomorrow ; Art ; Religion ; Bombings ; UN ; Connecticut ; Art Mile ; Avenida de Los Artistas ; Foulad 0 2129 The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center Tawfilis describes setting up the The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, which is the first mural museum in the world. She explains here how they came up with ideas for various murals. She also breifly describes how they are made, using objects such as PVC to make the murals in multiple dimensions. Tawfilis also mentions how their murals are located all over the world. Giza ; The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center ; Pyramid ; Egypt ; Oceanside ; Irvine ; Japan ; Murals ; International Decade for the Culture of Peace 0 2280 Art Miles Tawfilis talks about the art project referred to as "Art Miles" which is a series of murals that spans a long distance. Mural themes have included peace, unity, and women, and also tackle issues from every human and natural disaster. The project has also done murals on cultural creations such as sports and music. Tawfilis details some of the murals and what they represent, and speaks to mural making as a form of self improvement and healing, in response to their often tragic origins. Women ; Art Miles ; diasters ; Murals ; climate change ; Children’s Environmental Health Network ; Music ; Sports ; Japan ; Guinness Book of World Records ; United Arab Emirates ; NCAI ; Africa ; Native Americans ; Guiness Book of World Records 0 3036 Murals, continued Tawfilis talks about how the ideas of the murals spread, and how they are able to reach out following a tragic event and create a mural for that community, hoping for something that will mean a lot to these people, instead of payment. Tawfilis also talks about some of the logistics of running a non-profit that creates murals. non-profit ; emotion ; Creator ; non-governmental organizations 0 3283 Sprituality, people, and culture in the murals Tawfilis speaks to the importance of culture and representation -- especially of indigenous cultures in murals, and that the Muramid's global scope is vital to North San Diego County's fabric. Catholic ; Connecticut ; Mission ; Luiseno ; North County ; Indigenous communities ; Diversity 0 3433 Enslaved Africans and indigenous peoples Tawfilis gives a background of slavery post-civil war and a loophole that was used to continue to bring enslaved peoples into the United States. Tawfilis speaks to how in Oceanside, the gentrification and commercialization of the area is leading to the destruction of its natural beauty and history. Tawfilis mentions the Muramid's ties to UNESCO as a Center for Peace for all of California and Baja. Tawfilis also speaks of Mexican and Luiseño peoples, how similar their experiences are with the destruction of their local communities for the sake of tourism and advancement. Slavery ; Mobile, Alabama ; Africa ; History ; Mural ; Commercialization ; Oceanside ; UNESCO ; Center for Peace for all of California and Baja ; Mashantucket Pequots ; Mexicans ; Indigenous people ; Machu Pichu ; Egypt ; Valley Arts Center ; Luiseño 0 3834 Future initiatives &#13 ; Tawfilis discusses her future plans which include writing books, finding a home for twelve miles of murals, and the Endangered Planet Foundation. History ; Murals ; Books ; Smithsonian ; Endangered Planet Foundation ; Cave Men ; Machu Pichu ; United States ; Expressing Emotion 0 4063 Final messages Tawfilis expresses her final thoughts, from acknowledging each other's differences in opinions, to never giving up on a goal like going to school. She also has one last moment to share her awards and how proud her father would be of her seeing her accomplishments. Opinions ; differences ; awards ; PhD ; Arlington National Cemetery ; Filipino ; North County 0 Joanne Tawfilis is the executive director of the Art Miles Mural Project, which has had the participation of over 500,000 people from 125 countries to paint murals. Tawfilis and her late husband Fouad started the Art Miles Mural Project after Tawfilis worked with orphans in Bosnia, where they created a murals using the only materials available -- a 10 gallon can of white wall pain and bedsheets riddled with bullet holes. The Art Miles Mural Project is currently homed at the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center in Oceanside, California, where there are electronic displays of over 5,000 murals, art classes, music, and spoken word performances. &#13 ; &#13 ; Tawfilis has had a storied career and has worked with the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Women of Srebrenica Project, and UNESCO. In her interview, Tawfillis discusses her career working as a civilian employee of the military, as well as her work with the United Nations, IAEA, and the Women of Srebrenica Project. Tawfilis also discusses the creation of the Art Miles Mural Project, the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, and her thoughts on art as a vehicle for healing, empathy, and peace. Linda Kallas: Today is October 31, 2022. I am Linda Kallas, and I am interviewing Joanne Tawfilis as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Thank you for joining me today, Joanne. Joanne Tawfilis: Thank you, Linda. Glad to be here. Kallas: It’s my pleasure. I’m going to give you some questions, and you’re going to answer them and to the best of your ability and we’ll just keep moving through the questions. Okay? Tawfilis: Okay, sounds good. Kallas: First of all, when and where were you born? Tawfilis: I was born in New London, Connecticut, and, um, a long time ago, (laughs) almost seventy-seven years. Kallas: And was your family an active part of any cultural communities where you grew up? Tawfilis: Actually, my family was one of the first Filipino American families in the town that I was born in. Um, we had a huge family, and then another family came and there was sort of a competition between the two families on, I think, who could have the most kids. Kallas: Oh! (chuckles) Tawfilis: And I think my dad won! (both Joanne and Linda laugh) Kallas: Um, so you didn’t grow up in North County. You moved here how many years ago? Tawfilis: Oh, it was—I moved here probably, um, in 1971, was when I first came to California. But then with my career I traveled all over the world, so I was back and forth on a regular basis. Uh, I had children and grandchildren here, and when I retired in the year 2000, I decided to settle here in paradise. (nods) Kallas: Nice. And how do you like living and working here since then? Tawfilis: Oh, I love San Diego County. Out of all the places I’ve ever been, I think that what I—I love the weather like everybody else, but it’s very multicultural, and, uh, makes life interesting that way. And grandchildren will always keep you where you are going to retire. Kallas: Um, do you feel like you’re part of the community? And do you have a support network? Tawfilis: I feel very much part of the community in many ways, but on―in some ways, no, because we’re—we’ve kind of discombobulated in this county where North County is kind of separated. But, I—my community is global, so it makes it a little bit interesting for me to try to be part of this community, despite the fact that I am, uh, running a multicultural center. Oceanside seems to be very focused on downtown and tourism, and, uh, I wanted to be here, even when I was downtown when we had our, um—it’s our studio and our center and our museum, the first mural museum in the world in Artists’ Alley. I—I thought we were really integrated into the community, but when—when I had to move out and come down here, it’s been a little different because we’re—we’re—we’re not considered you know neighborly, I think, is my—my feeling. We—we—we’re here. I love being part of being imbedded into the community, especially the indigenous community, because the Center was supposed to be focused on multiculturalism, with the focus on indigenous people. Kallas: Um, so prior to doing what you do now at the Mural Museum and the Art Miles, you had another whole career. Can you talk a little bit about that? Tawfilis: Yeah. I started out doing illustration work with the U.S. government, and when computers came out, they scared the heck out of me, being a non-technical person and being kind of a—I think, at that time, a very snobby artist (laughs), and then when people tell you what they want painted on, or drawn with specific directions, I had to question “Why, then, do you need me, if you’re not going to use my creative brain.” And the computer-generated art didn’t appeal to me because of that. Although now it’s grown into such a great variety of software programs, you can do almost anything, even with your own art. But as a young artist, I didn’t see it that way. So I worked for the military for most of my career in civil service, and then later on, combined my civil service career with the United Nations, and got to travel, a lot! Kallas: Um, so, some of the work—you want to talk about some of the work you did for the military, Civil Service department? Tawfilis: Yeah. After doing illustration, um, at the Submarine School in Connecticut, where we—where I was born, and my ex-husband was military, we traveled and that’s how I came—came to California. Um, and I worked really hard doing graphics here. Um, I rose in my career there to, to when the Bicentennial happened in, uh, 1975–76, the Navy and the country’s Bicentennial, and I got a little bit famous because I coordinated the whole military celebration down at the Broadway Pier , and things like that. And, then when, uh, uh, I went as far as I could, as far as a illustrator, was go—was my part of my career, and they started to do more and more graphics. I mean I worked at every military base in San Diego that you could think of. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then an opportunity came to become, uh, the first civilian and woman to be a, an international military training coordinator, and that’s how I got really involved with the international work, because the job was to be like a cultural, um, leader for the military people that came and their families, and setting up Friendship programs, and ex—not exchange programs, because these were, these were guys that were being trained on the equipment in the ships that we sold as part of the―what they call an international military exchange training program, I met and several others. So, I worked through all the bases doing that, and really loved, um, starting programs for the military and introducing them to American culture. And that was my real first experience, and getting international people to know the native cultures. And I did a lot of—I spent a lot of time down in San Diego, and Chicano Park, and I used to have the military, even the officers, lay down in the, the big, uh, like a pagoda―I’ve forgotten what you call it (chuckles), I think this is my senior moment―um, and look up to see the Inca and the Maya—Mayan civilization paintings, ‘cuz that’s where Chicano Park is sort of visualized and painted in amazing murals. And I did part of that on the bridge, the bridge stanchions that show how the Mexicans and the Spaniards came, and the farm workers came. And that was a lot of indigenous peoples from Mexico. And that got me interested. And then coming from Connecticut and New England where we had a lot of Native American tribes, a lot of international people ask about what happened to all the Indians in American culture? And a lot of—back then, a lot of international people only knew about cowboys and Indians, like most of us when we were growing up, you know, decades ago. And it also—it was very interesting to me because my minor in college was Native American Studies. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And that’s how I got introduced to it. But, you know, it was something that you think of academically, although it struck my heart because I was really angry at our educational system for not letting me know, among others, that where I grew up and lived most of my, you know, young adult life prior to college was Indian country. I mean, one of the thirteen colonies. And people don’t realize what kind of impact that had, has on people when you’re growing up. So, that affected my, my heart always. So, when I—in my career, I’ve always had that as a, I want to say, a big influence on what I’ve done to, to teach international people when I travel, both with the military and with the U.N. Kallas: Now, did the military send you to other countries as well? Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. I ended up—I started out doing, like I said, the international training stuff, but then I was on the base closure team, where my career went way up as far as getting higher promotions and better pay, and stuff like that. So I ended up, after doing base closures in most of the San Francisco Bay and Hawaii area, my territory was, I was one of twelve people that did the base closure studies. And then I had an opportunity—kind of as a fluke—to apply for an international job with the Army, and my supervisor and I both did it, um, as a—I don’t know, we just got a, a bug to say, “Oh, let’s see what happens if we apply to do what we’re doing here in the States, doing base closures.” And so, they offered her a job, and she turned it down. And they said “Oh well, the next person on the list is right in your office. Can we talk to her?” That was me! And so I ended up going to Germany. At the time I had been working for the Navy for over twenty years, in different positions like I said, from illustrator to management analyst, and working at foreign training and base closures. So then I ended up going to the Army in Germany, and that was, uh, right after, um, the Bicentennial had ended, and then I did a stint with—I took some time, and got, went on loan as a Vista volunteer, and went up to the Nespelem reservation in Colville, Kettle Falls area of Washington. I got really lucky cuz’ my hero was Chief Joseph (chuckles) and so I worked on that reservation in a parent aid program. But that’s another whole thing that maybe we could talk about later. Because going back to the military, I did this closing the bases in Europe and I became one of the heads of the base closure team there, and that’s how I got to travel to just about every European country there was. And, um, from there, I got recruited by the state department and through my federal military civilian job, went to work for the United Nations in, in Austria after the base closure job in Germany, that I went onward to, um, working on loan again. I went on loan from the Navy to the Army, from the Army to the International Atomic Energy Agency, and on loan again to the United Nations Environment Program in Nairobi. I mean there were jobs in between, but, and like I say that the stint I did at—I got to continue my career, even though I stopped working for the military for two years to work on, um, the Vista volunteer program. When Shriv—Sergeant Shriver started the Peace Corps, he also started the Vista volunteer program, which is now, I think, Americorps. So I was in that first round. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And then I went back to civil service and continued on, and onward to U.N. Kallas: And did they send you to, um, war torn countries, and where there was a lot of political unrest— Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. Kallas: —as a representative? Tawfilis: Yeah. When I went to, um—well, I could say my first stint overseas in Germany with the Army was when the wall came down. And I had just adopted two more children, and uh, I remember during that time the―when the wall came down, my kids were like, like—they were adopted from Mexico, and then—but they were Americans in a sense, so they were Mexican descent. And it was really interesting for them to learn German, so you see two little Mexicans speaking in German (chuckles). It was kind of cool. And, um, but the war torn part of it was―my job was because the war was over, the Cold War, and the wall came down, the government decided that’s why they wanted to close the bases because they didn’t need that anymore. We had so much military might invested in Germany because that was the actual front, that it made my job easy because the, the common sense of the economic support that they did for Europe, um, on the, well, it was called the front, made sense to start closing the bases. And so, I became a superstar, doing that, because I had people skills, so the generals that I worked for decided that it was great to have a woman civilian go give the commanding officers of the base the good news and the bad news that their base was going to be closed. And as a result of that, I was one of four women chosen to be, um, a member or take part in a study to decide whether civilians should become executive officers of military bases. So, they sent us to Army Management Staff College, and I was one of the four women that attended that. And so, the idea would be that I would become an executive officer of a military base so they could station military in the field. The problem with that is there’s no military that’s going to listen to a civilian as a boss. So, you can ask my son-in-law about that, ‘cuz he was Army. In fact, my daughter met him there in Germany. But, yeah, that was one. And then with the U.N., when I went to Africa, there’s all kinds of―I want to say―conflicts going on, including Somalia, Rwanda, during all that time, and so, yeah, I saw a lot. In fact, I was car-napped and my own personal safety was in danger there, not only from being exposed to so many people that were dying of AIDS, but because of the tribal—there’s like forty tribes in Nairobi alone and there were conflicts and a lot of cultural differences between the tribal people and a lot of, um, little―I want to say―mini wars going on and the political strife, and then of course, it was pretty bloody with Rwanda and then Somalia in that area. But I got to travel all over Africa, looking at—my job there was to consolidate the U.N. organizations in Nairobi and the base was called Gigiri, and, um, I got in trouble there, because I tried to support the local indigenous people with the financial area. So, if you want to talk about wars, and danger, and stuff like that, I think people think of shooting, you know, and bombs and stuff. But there’s other kind of wars, like economic ones. And I came up with this idea that civil service employees in international organizations should be cay—should be paid equally. But they have this system in the U.N. where local nationals are―have to go through a wage classification survey and they get the prevailing wage rate, whatever that country is. So, in other words, my secretary in Austria would get $3,000 a month, but my secretary in Nairobi would get $300 dollars a month. Kallas: Oh... Tawfilis: Yeah. And I just didn’t think that made sense, working with the U.N. So, it was kind of a battle there, and I think that was the biggest war for me, is trying to help the local nationals. And I did some―I want to say―out of the ordinary things, like promoting them when other people went out on mission they would hire people to come in and pay them exorbitant amounts of money, including me, because I, I was on a stipend on a daily basis, in addition to my very high salary. But the work was done by the local people. I think that happens everywhere, that the real worker bees don’t get recognized for the, all the work that they do, and they carry on the mission of whatever that country’s, you know, objectives are. And so, I think that’s one of the reasons I got car-napped, because I had a big mouth and I actually wrote a book about how to flatten the United Nations. So, they sent me back. I was on loan from the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna, Austria to Africa, and because I tried to help the local people, I think I wasn’t going to go much further, after ten years, you know, working for the U.N. So, that was my personal battle when you talk about wars, and dangerous things. I mean, when you get to the point where they don’t want you to talk―and it wasn’t the U.N. that did it―it was a person that probably wanted the job that I had―that arranged for this kidnapping or car-napping that I survived. So… Kallas: So, you also, um, had spent time in Bosnia during that— Tawfilis: Yeah, at the end of my career— Kallas: —that was after all the— Tawfilis: with—I was getting ready to retire and, uh, because I was on loan as a very high-ranked civilian, the only place they could put me would be the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. and I didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. I’d been at the headquarters many times with my job with the Army. I did a lot of stuff for the Army, like I said. And I really didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. So, they gave me a choice of going to Bosnia and working with the widows at Srebrenica, at the end of the conflict in the Balkans between the―where Yugoslavia had broken up. And I went on an interview sponsored by the Clinton Foundation to be the Director of the Bosnian Women’s Initiative or what they—most people know as the Widows of Srebrenica, where at some point they gathered the Bosnian women together―and I should say the Bosnian families together―in their village called Srebrenica which was a safe haven. And unfortunately it wasn’t a very well protected safe haven, and on July tenth and eleventh in 197―uh, 1995, the Serbs came in and gave the people ten minutes to come outside, and they put the women on one side of the street, women and children under fourteen and old people, real old people, and then they put the men and boys on the other side and then they took all the women, put them on buses and sent them to a village in the mountains, in Tuzla. And the men disappeared. They found some mass graves. They found some bodies in a forest where they were―tried to run away, I guess, some of the men. And, but they never found the whole―I would say, whole group of the over six to seven thousand. They, they suspect―there’s a lot of theories, and a lot of books written about it. But my job was to work with the women and help them do economic development and to heal and to also help identify bodies and get all their data because they had no pictures of their families. They had, you know, all this stuff that they—they left with nothing. And then to try to help reconciliation between the three entities, and I ended up, you know, working my, my heart and my head off, because working with people who have lost everything and witnessed the destruction of their country and their families getting killed and murdered and their men disappearing, and these were mostly farm women that didn’t even know how to write their name. So, I think I worked harder in my life those three or four years that I was there doing everything from gathering information to help put the war crimes together because these people were still on the loose. And then throughout the years, the military would find them and capture the war crime perpetrators and bring them to the Hague and they were imprisoned, and some of them—I won’t name names—passed away in prison before they could be tried. But it was terrible trying to identify remains with the women. Maybe it would be just shreds of a shirt but they recognized their husbands. And then having all that emotional—I think I have a whole book of stories I could write about their suffering. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: But because of that, I was encouraged to go work in the orphanage and there three hundred fifty orphans. I have a TED talk online, TED-X from Orange Coast College. And, it was―it’s called “Painting Outside the Lines.” I also have one from UCSD “Stem to Steam” because I put the art part in there. But back to the Bosnian situation and I guess as the point of my career that changed my life that we were going to talk about, because when I saw what the children had gone through and I―they―they told me—you were getting— I was getting very depressed, and they said “you need to go work in this orphanage.” So, the three hundred fifty orphans from all three entities, but they had not found or located all families. So, some of the kids had no survivors. I understand that most of them they were able to place them years later. But while I was there, my―my, uh, free time, if you want to call it free time, was to go and work with these kids to do art. And then after about three months of just sketching and coloring and stuff, they asked if they could make a very big painting and I interpreted that as a mural. And so if you―you’ll hear on the TED talk, how we found bed sheets in a closet that were full of sort of darned holes and the―they explained to me that the young ladies in Europe learn how to sew, which we did away with here in the United States. But there they sew everything. So, when they pulled out the sheets, and they had all these little stitches, and some still had holes, I, when I asked them what the holes were about, they said “Well, this used to be a hospital, and it was bombed. So these were from the shells and the shrapnel that, that, you know, made holes in the walls and the bedding and the whole bit of the ugly hospital beds over there.” So, what I did was the Army had left a 10-gallon pan―pail of white flat, white wall paint and I, I had them sew two sheets together and I put masking tape on the back where I thought there were the least amount of holes and then I just painted. I put a whole bunch of newspaper, and in the morning it turned into a very stiff canvas! So, we had a canvas and the kids got very excited. Every time I think about their faces when they saw that, and then it was like “Oh, we’ve got to paint that whole thing?” You know… Kallas: So, that’s when your two careers intersected, so you kind of went back to— Tawfilis: Right. Kallas: roots, and— Tawfilis: And I got to do art, right? So, but what changed my life were the, the children and the oldest one was about eighteen and then they had a little eighteen or nineteen-month-old baby in there, and they divided the kids up into groups of five. And they took two older, mostly teens, and then three younger kids, so they could take care of each other, ‘cuz they only had five people running this whole orphanage. There was psychologist, and then the other four were caregivers, and they cooked for them, and made sure that they were, you know, trying to keep them busy. There were—I don’t even think they had formal education for them, because there was nothing. And they were just being protected and fed, and trying—and I think doing the art was a real important thing in their lives. So, how my life changed was, the kids started—I said “you have to decide what you want to paint.” So, what they—I had them do, is I said “Draw something that you want on this canvas.” So, they all did it, and I still have some of the sketches. I should have brought some. But they, they, they had to come up with an idea that would go on the canvas. So, we looked at all the drawings and they started forming this dialogue and they started talking to each other. And you have to understand these kids were very depressed themselves, and they had these real— Kallas: Traumatized. Tawfilis: Yeah. They were all traumatized and they were kind of afraid of each other when they were—they knew that one was a Serb, and one was a Croat, and one was Bosnian. And they didn’t―they matched them up by age, not so much by what sect of religion they belonged to. So, and in children weren’t so attuned, maybe the older ones were a little bit more conscious of their religious differences, whatever. But in the discussions that they were doing, they started talking about the trauma that they had gone through. And some of the kids knew each other from the different villages that they had come from. And I found myself going outside, crying myself, because they started talking about what they saw, what they felt. And even now, when I think about it, it’s still—it burns a hole in your heart, but it —I wondered how this was going to work. And I’d go back in, and then they decided on a theme. And what was happening is they were going through a catharsis themselves, and they ended up with coming up with the theme “Yesterday and Tomorrow.” And the Yesterday section of this one―I guess we would call it a triptych in our art language, Yesterday, they did sketches of houses that had no roofs, ‘cuz they’d blown up. Airplanes dropping bombs, and then because the women were wearing kerchiefs because they were Bosnian Muslim, they had their heads covered. There, a lot of the little drawings had little pictures of women lined up, going, and they remembered having to come out of the houses in Srebrenica and line up on the other side of the street. So you saw ―you would see sketches of that, and dragons, and just ugly things that they, fires, things burning. And then the middle section where they had put the groups of five together, they drew their little new families, which was really cute. Kallas: That’s awesome. TAWFILIS: And then on the third panel was, were flowers and clowns and balloons and stuff like that. So they called it “Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow.” So after five days of going through that, I can say that was a life changer for me, and, and I was telling my husband about it, and we, we made that first mural, and he was in the process of constructing a new building, me, a gallery, and we called it Avenida de Los Artistas. So, we had a Spanish name in a German country, speaking country in Austria. We started , he started doing murals, or I started it on the wall, one of the walls of the museum that was being built, at the gallery. So, when I’d go back home, we were making murals, and after about a hundred of them we said “we should make this a project.” Because the latch kids would be coming, then the schools started sending kids over. So we turned it into a project, and actually Foulad, my husband, was the man who came up with the idea of calling it “Art Mile.” We didn’t know it was going to turn into twelve miles! But that’s how it started. And then at one point I met a professor from Wesleyan University, and I did some murals. The very first mural we did outside of Bosnia was in Austria. And then on one of my trips back to Connecticut, I met this professor from Wesleyan, and we did one at the university there. And he said “You need to tell the U.N. about your project.” And, so, there are lots of things going on, wars, conflicts all over. And so the United Nations had set up a program called the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And it was founded by Ambassador Chaudry of the U.N. who was at the time Under Secretary General for small developing nations and island nations. And he had written the resolution to start this International Decade from 2001 to the end of 2010. And so my husband and I had this crazy idea of going to New York and getting him to support it as a U.N. project. And at the same time, the son, the grandson of Jacques Cousteau heard about us, and said “I’d love to see what you’re doing. Maybe you should do murals about the sea.” So he flew from London and met us at the famous hotel in New York, and I was, while I was there to meet Ambassador Chaudry and said he would love to see us do murals about the oceans and the sea and the water. And at that time he was at grad school, I believe. And so our very first celebrity fan was Phillipe Cousteau, the son of Phillipe Cousteau, who passed away in a plane crash. He was one of the two sons of Jacques Cousteau. So we went on to the U.N. and just unrolled five canvases, one of them was done in Nairobi, and it went all the way down the hallway, cuz they were five feet by twelve feet, so we had almost fifty feet of canvas going down the hallway and Ambassador Chaudry’s office took up a whole floor of People in the U.N. building and they all came and looked at it and they all fell in love with the project. And that’s when we got his support and endorsement, and we started doing murals. And now we’ve got over twelve miles of murals from all over the world, which many of them are right here in this building. And our headquarters is in North County and Oceanside. Kallas: And that is called? Tawfilis: The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center. We had it set up as the first mural museum in the world, and for people who don’t know the word “Muramid” comes from murals that were being constructed into a pyramid which we had set up a project. My husband came up with the design and he did the photography of over a thousand murals and did them in miniature because we were going to create the Muramid Pyramid at the great Pyramids in Giza. And at the time, we had also, I had retired. We had moved to Egypt. We have a home there. And my husband spent a lot of time and a lot of money. What we called Back Cheese, with the paying under the table to the Minister of Education, Minister of Culture, to do a fourth pyramid to be constructed with piping, I don’t know if they call it, it wasn’t the PPV―PVC piping, it was metal. And he designed that. And then a company here in Oceanside―not Oceanside,―in Irvine, “Supercolor Photo,” were kind enough to make the model and take my husband’s design of the miniature murals and make a cover. And we were able to have a ten-foot model that we were going, we used in several places. In fact, we have ten models all over the world right now, including Japan. And we participated in international conferences and things like that. And the whole idea was to have, to have (someone enters the room, off camera) I thought I locked the door, sorry. Anyway, the whole idea was at the end of 2010 we would have this celebration to commemorate the closing of the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And then, what happened was, because we had so many conflicts we ended up with a second decade, which ended at the end of 2021. Kallas: Now all of your—you have twelve themes for your Art Miles. Tawfilis: Mm-hmm. Kallas: Can you share a little bit about that, and what, what people gained from doing these murals? Tawfilis: Sure. The first thing that we did was Peace, Unity, and Healing. And then we ended up with the Women, because the women’s influence on art and healing. That’s where the healing part came in. And you know when you think about peace, unity, and healing, then you talk about women and their role in it. And then we started environment, because everybody started complaining, and worrying about climate change. And as you know, that has a subject that has increased so many, so much all over the world. And it’s happening. We’re all experiencing that. And then we started doing murals in response to every human and natural disaster. That’s even when 9/11 happened in 2001, it was a big deal and we did, like, many murals and actually exhibited some of them on, at Ground Zero. We were there, doing the mural, at Georgetown University on September 11. And we got sequestered into the hotel that we were staying at, because we were doing a Children’s Environmental Health Network thing. But anyway, back to the themes, so that’s how the environment started. We, the third one was Children’s Environmental Health Network where they actually did a film about us there. And while we were doing that, we ended up being, watching the Twin Towers come down. And then from there we started Children’s and then Fairytale and then Sports and Music, and so now we have Hero and we had—then we started the Japanese government, or I should say our Japanese team started doing an exchange program. They called it, they call it the International Intercultural Mural Exchange where they do half of a mural in Japan and the other half in another country, with another school. So, there’s four hundred forty murals for each themed. They’re all, not all five by twelve, some of them are half sized. But our goal was to at least get to twelve miles, and then in 2008 we attempted to break the Guinness Book of World Records. But three weeks before that, we found out that the United Arab Emirates had already done that with the longest mural in the world. And we couldn’t surpass it, because they, they would, they did like ten-mile, not ten miles, ten murals more than us. But, even the, the grand master, whatever they call them, that comes to do the, to officiate measurements stuff, said ours weren’t connected , and they want a continuous theme. So, what the, what happened with the United Arab Emirates, they did, they did, I think at that time, like four miles, about women, and it was done for International Women’s Day and they featured the, all the children. And all the schools did murals about the sheikah, or the queen, I guess. And then they had to burn it, because it was done on paper, and Islam doesn’t allow images. So, but they did break the record. Plus, it cost ten thousand dollars to bring the guy over, and we didn’t have that kind of money. We still don’t have that kind of money, because we do it all from our hearts, very few donations. Kallas: And can you talk a little bit of how the initial concept of murals has evolved over the years, compared to where you started in Bosnia, and to where you are right now with the murals. Tawfilis: Yeah. I think the biggest change is education. We found that education has come to the forefront because whenever, whatever thing you’re working on, it teaches you something, you know, whether it’s fairy tales that are originally thought of by children and from their imaginations or sports. There are―you learn what the sport’s all about. Music, the same thing. We’ve even had music murals created while people are looking at a mural and they write music about it. And then, or vice versa. Or when it’s in the indigenous mile. At one time we presented a—because I was in Connecticut at the time, we had someone present the idea of doing—we discovered there were five hundred fifty recognized tribes. And so they did a resolution at the National Congress of American Indians, NCAI, that each tribe would contribute a mural. But we got so busy, and then my husband passed away. We have never followed up on that. I don’t know how long those resolutions last. But I would love to revive it. But since that time, I’ve also discovered there’s a whole bunch of non-recognized tribes. And I think that has appealed to me more, because I feel like, how could you not recognize a tribe? I don’t care. I know that there, their requirements have DNA and numbers of members and whether they have a reservation or whatever. But, it’s not accounting, some of the tribes don’t get credit for just being there, and being there first. And they were decimated by whatever colonial tribe or―how would I say―shouldn’t be―that’s the wrong word―colonial influence that came in and took over those lands, even in our own wars, in the Civil War. Even before that, they, you know, the genocide of Native Americans is something that most Americans don’t even know about. They don’t even know about there’s so many tribes in every country that they went through the same thing. You know, the genocide of every African nation. There’s thirty-three countries in Africa! And most Americans don’t know that. There―you could go there, and you could say “The Dutch took over this country. The Italians did this country. The Brits did this.” You know. And they left their influence, but they also started slavery, and brought it here. And then―and I think that’s why there is a bond between a lot of Native Americans. When you―one thing I’ve even discovered more of later in my life is how Native Americans helped so many slaves, you know, following the Civil War. Protected them, and hid them, and intermarried, and that’s why there’s a lot of controversy among white people about―they had this concept the Indians were “red.” First of all, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a red person, or a yellow Chinese person, or maybe caramel, like me. (both she and Linda chuckle) And when you think of black, kids in school when you say “These are Africans.” They use black crayons or black paint. There are some very black people, I think. Some countries have all shades. India has black India people from East India. And Senegal people mostly are darker than most, you know. But there’s also a whole shades, hues of people. But like Aki, our drummer, says “Inside we all have red blood. We all have bones.” You know, and when we all die, you can’t tell, maybe by the―anthropologists will tell you about the skulls and the framework and stuff like that. But color? No. Religion, you know, that’s another thing. So, the other—to get back to your question. The other evolution has been healing. I think the focus now is more on healing, because we have so much―what’s the word―conflicts around the world. And then personal violence going on with school shootings and the massive massacres with massive killings all over and accidents and natural disasters, with hurricanes and floods. Right here in California, the fires, right here! They came right up to the back door here, you know. And if you drive up through the mountains going to, to go buy a pie, you’re going to find out. You drive through all the reservation areas and you see where the fires from the past―you see those still the black, some of the trees, and there’s a big contrast with the silhouettes of those trees and then the―now the overgrown greenery. It’s so beautiful, and you know, things like that. So, healing has made a big difference, because when people―and what I’m really, I think, what I’d like to share in this interview with you―is that healing isn’t just the murals that we send to the people who have been become victims and their families of those who were killed or injured in these horrible violent events or disasters. It’s us, ourselves. When each school shooting happens, how many parents and people with a heart feel that pain, of, of—I can’t—every time I hear of a school shooting, I think of those poor little kids, and I grieve for them and for their families and for the friends and the neighbors that were there. And my first exposure to that was actually the, the widows watching those children, and then 9/11 when the Red Cross had murals being done all over. We have some amazing murals that came from all over the country and the world, displaying their feelings. And one of them, one of the ones that stands out in my mind, is Hope, Alaska did one. And it, the whole mural is the word “Hope” but inside the word “Hope” they drew people, and a lot of native and indigenous people are in that. And then, when Sandy Hook happened from my, where I’m from, Connecticut, I went there, and to see those little children, you know. How can anybody go in and kill all those little tiny kindergarten kids, and the teachers? And then what people don’t know there’s, in America, there’s a place called Beslan, near Russia, where the radicals, and the— Kallas: Government was involved in― Tawfilis: Yeah, over two hundred people, two hundred kids and teachers killed. And then again, recently, you know, I mean we could go on and on. And every time we did a mural, it was like once or twice a year, and now, I mean, I think in July we had three shootings , and, you know, things we had to respond to. And actually, I’m behind! We haven’t been able to do, Massa from the, Mahsa Imani―Amini, from the―from Iran, because we’re so busy. We just finished Ukraine, you know. There’s just, St. Louis. All this stuff keeps happening. So, healing! Kallas: So, part of your process in dealing with this tragedy is there’s a healing element for you to respond to those through a mural. And you send those murals to those places, correct? Tawfilis: Yeah. And we’ve been lucky. Sometimes we hear back, and sometimes we don’t. Because you can’t expect everybody, every city and town, to say “Oh, gosh, all these people.” You know, people send food and clothing. And a lot of people do art and murals and flowers and, and stuff like that. So, I know, you know, part of giving, what people don’t understand is we give and we do murals from our heart. We don’t expect a lot in return. What I expect is when people paint a mural to send that they are sharing that same emotion that I feel that they want people to know that we’re thinking of them, and that we’re sending our prayers and good wishes. I know people think that a lot of non-governmental organizations do things for money. Well, we’re, we’re a great example of “No” (laughs), because― Kallas: Non-profit. Tawfilis: Yeah, we are a true non-profit. And my husband and I and a lot of people have contributed. We don’t have an overhead staff that we, we pay for. We can’t. We just don’t, you know. Thank goodness we have good―there’s so many―I focus on the good people and the good things that come. If I started thinking about what I have or what I don’t, you know, what I don’t have, with other organizations that get grants, and they have sponsors and philanthropists look at them, I would never be able to do what I do. At this age, I’m just now starting―we have a Foundation that we’re working on, and my goal is to finally, if I realize it, if I want to have a legacy in the name, in the memory of my husband who gave up his career, and out of my true care and I say, I want to say concern for people who are suffering, and indigenous people, I think that’s why I want it here. That’s what brought my here. I think the Creator, whoever your Creator is, my Creator is a number of spiritual things, that I saw this place that we’re sitting in right now before we opened the Muramid and Artists Alley. And my husband said “It’s too small. It looks like a house!” And it was full of crazy stuff that had been here before. So, it was neglected and smelly. It didn’t have high ceilings when we peeked in the windows, and he, he just kind of passed it on. But, something called out to me in this place. And I remember driving around one day after I knew I had to leave Artists Alley, because he passed away. I hadn’t, didn’t have the infrastructure and the help that I do now with Aki and his drumming and neighbors and friends and people that have helped put this thing together. I remember driving around and it still had a For Rent style on here―sign―and I parked the car and I called the guy and the property manager. And it was still in the same shape that it had been, I guess, six years before. So, this place had been empty for a while. I think maybe something might have happened in between, but I doubt it, because judging from when we did get inside, and there was a lot of feces, dead animals, all kinds of stuff. But I can feel this place. When we took down the ceiling, because it was that―what do they call it―insulation hanging down, and I looked at the wood, and I realized “Wow, this place was here a long time ago.” I didn’t know the history of the place, but I’ve been told it was the original general store for the Mission. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then when I found out about the Mission and, you know, being a Catholic, in a former life, I thought “Wow, this is pretty cool!” Then I remember reading, like other things in Connecticut, that there were people here before the Mission came, and I got really passionate about “I’m going to put it right there.” And I want to dedicate the place to the Luiseño, because I found out that they are the people that this belongs to. And everybody that comes in the door, every single person, I can’t think of one that hasn’t come in the door for the first time and goes “Wow! This place, it has such great karma. It feels warm and friendly, and it’s inviting and it’s good to be in here and it’s so creative.” And I went (claps her hands together) “Yes! That’s what we’re all about.” And so, I think we are an important piece of the history of this place because I feel like an archive in here, of some sort. And the Mural Project has found its home, and I think that’s an important part of being the history up here in the North County, to have a project that’s global in scope that has been participated in by over a half a million people from over a hundred countries. To land in a place that is based on what everybody should know about indigenous communities. My hope is that―and I started out with my husband and I both said, you know, before we wanted to feature different cultures, because we felt that Americans weren’t quite educated enough to understand the diversity and the richness of cultures from other people, and other countries, including this country, you know. There’s so many―and I don’t want to use the term “white”―but there’s a lot of American, white people who don’t understand that they came here from other countries as well. And in their own country, if they look back in their roots, they’ll find out that they come in different shades as well. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And that the stolen land―you know, recently I watched a documentary about Alabama where the last slave ship came in and it was against the law to even bring slaves after 1860 or something like that. But it was one ship’s captain who said “I can show you how to do it, and I’m going to prove it.” And he did it out of rebellion and brought a hundred and twenty slaves from Africa, made them get off the ship, near Mobile, Alabama, and in the water, the swamp, they got on to the land. I understand they stayed there for a few weeks and then they divided them into three different plantations. But they burned that ship in that. They said they wanted to get rid of the evidence. Well, that was a genocide in and off itself, of history. And now after four hundred years or whatever, they’re finding all these remnants. You can go anywhere, even here. When we started doing the back, we found a cross in the yard that, that must have been buried in the ground from whatever was here before. And I always wondered what happened and what’s going on with all this gentrification and the new building over there. It hurts my heart. And I talked to a Luiseño member who is one of our drummers, a woman, she said “every time she goes by” and she’s a school bus driver, she said “it hurts my heart.” Because she knows there’s another thing covering it up and erasing part of the history of this place. And I’m really sorry that, you know, recently the newspaper said “the wave just got approved with the valley over there, and the rest of the valley. And I live in a place that I look at that, and I, I could cry just thinking about it. Right across the street from Pablo Tac Elementary School. They’re going to build a wave park like we need one so close to the ocean? I mean, come on. Commercialization is just really destroying the natural history of many places including right here where we live. So, I’m hoping that the owner of the properties here will never let this place become that wave even though I can see a beautiful little old town here. You know, I like to see more cultural things happen here. And I’d love to see the cultural district expand from downtown to where the real history is here. I mean, uh, it’s to me almost sinful that we don’t put more emphasis on what the history of this area, of Oceanside, is all about. It’s all on the front, at the waterfront. It’s all commercial. They even destroyed the waterfront in my eyes, by putting all that, the hotels and stuff. Kallas: Well, in trying to put it all together here, in breadth and in depth is community building. Tawfilis: Correct. Kallas: Through the murals, through the other work you’ve done. It seems to be the main theme of your life, and now you have the Center. And doesn’t it also have something to do with UNESCO? Tawfilis: Yes! We recently became the UNESCO Center for Peace for all of California and Baja. And with that I think will help enhance my opportunity and all the people that work with us to bring more cultural education and healing to this area, and to educate people about what real peace begins with me, and our neighbors and our families. And then, you know, I know this all sounds very philosophical but it’s true, you know. And, um, I think we have a pretty good mayor who supports local people more than others that I’ve seen. Maybe it’s because I see her out there in the community more than I’ve seen other mayors do. And I know that she is of Mexican descent, but I also believe that Mexicans have a lot of indigenous people here as well. Kallas: Right. Tawfilis: And when I talk about Mexicans, I don’t mean that they are the invaders of the people that took over. They too have been, you know, victims of genocide. All this belonging to part of that. But the first people here from all the history that I have been able to do my own research on, were the Luiseños. And so, my passion and dedication is going to be based on that. I am going to be looking at other cultures and introducing the people of the world to our local community through this center. But this is―This year, the Valley Arts Festival will feature my dedication to that. As I have this painting behind me. It’s kind of weird that we have this Mexican lady, native, behind me, and then my dancer, and then I am going to do a dedicated mural to the Spirit of the Valley, and to the tribal captain and a woman who happens to be his sister who I think is, in my eyes, the official historian of just about everything that could ever happen to the Luiseños here. And I feel very fortunate, um, coming from where I do, and what I did in Connecticut with the Mashantucket Pequots to see them grow and have the best museum in my eyes, in the whole world, indigenous or otherwise because it’s interactive. To be with people that are still alive that I can talk to and interact with that live right here in this community. So… Kallas: So, going forward, what, um, what other projects are on the horizon for you. Tawfilis: Well― Kallas: Besides what you just talked about, are there other avenues that you’re going to pursue? Tawfilis: Oh, thank you for asking. Because one way of documenting history is books. So, I’m writing, actually there’ll be four books that I hope will be coming from me. But interacting with other people, we’re doing, taking the murals now, what am I going to do with twelve miles of murals? My goal is to convince the Smithsonian that they need to take these, because to me it’s a visual documentation of two decades or more of history by the people and for the people. This is their words, not some author who wrote a book about the history of something. It’s from all over the world, and it addresses social issues everywhere. So, what I’m hoping to do is we have a Foundation that we’re going to be―we are part of, called the Endangered Planet Foundation, and our project will, will be embracing that and taking the mural images and trying to create practical products from the mural images and raising money through the sales of textiles and books and things like that, tangible things that can go into a fund that will keep this project going, and long after I’m gone. Hopefully until then I can help form a solid board and we can end up hiring a staff which we’ve never had, to carry on this project, because I think it’s something that can continue. Mural art has been growing all over the world. The cave men have come a long way from their images to creating murals not just on walls but on canvas and ours is mobile. I wanted to have a voice for people that could be shared, not stuck on a wall that you’re never going to― I’m maybe some people will never get to Machu Pichu or to the Egyptian temples and pyramids or caves where we have here in the United States with etchings and things on them. So, this way we can bring people closer together. So that’s the future, is I want to leave a legacy and because I know what works. What other non-profit organization can survive for almost twenty-five years with no money? I’ll tell you why. Because people believe in it, and we believe in it with all our hearts and souls. And, as nearing my seventy-seventh birthday, I bypassed seventy-five because of Covid. I think we have proof in the pudding, so, yeah, that’s the plan, is to continue. Kallas: And speaking from personal experience, I’ve actually experienced the healing process and that sense of community where we’re all working on the same thing at the same time. There’s just so much unity in that and it’s very, you could really internalize that. Tawfilis: Well you know the big―bottom line is mural art gives you a chance to express yourself even with a group, because as you know doing quilt, we do that kind of style with murals as well, in different forms or whatever. You get to express yourself individually but you do it with a group and it brings you all closer together, and in doing so you talk to each other, and the bottom line is you find out how much more we have in common than we have in differences. Which sounds like a cliché, but boy it’s true. Kallas: It’s very true. Tawfilis: We actually do it. And we make ourselves, I mean, better people because we get to know and appreciate other people’s opinions, even if we don’t agree with them. We hear what they’re thinking and feeling, and we learn a lot from each other. And I think that’s how peace is going to happen, when we begin to open our minds and our hearts to understanding that we’re different but we all have the same basic common needs. We all want to eat. We all want to be able to have a home over our heads and feel safe. And the richness of having other cultures influencing your life―it’s like if you’re only going to eat American hot dogs and hamburgers, what a boring life that would be, right? (Linda laughs) I always think of it simplistically like that because you end up going “Gee, I like Thai food. I like Chinese food. I like Italian food. Whatever.” Well, that comes from people, you know. And so, the blend and the magic of seeing the dancing from, and the music, the different forms of music, and you can be native American and play rock-n-roll music. I happen to know somebody who can do that and do it well. Or a Filipino that can sing beautiful, musical songs. Or the homeless people with the choir that was started right here from North County. I mean I think that’s a great, you know, cultural contribution to history. So. Kallas: Well, Joanne, thank you so much. It’s been an honor and a privilege to do this interview with you. And I want to repeat something I recently told a mutual friend about you, that I truly think you are a work of art. Tawfilis: Oh, my goodness. Kallas: And I just thank you so much. Tawfilis: Well, thank you. And I also want to say that I did get a PhD at the age of 71. So, my message to all those who think that you never learned and you can’t earn a degree as you get older, you’re wrong. You can get it, and mine was honorary, and I’m really proud of it now because I used to think―I’m very humble about it because I do understand how much hard work goes in to doing a dissertation. I almost got there. I could have done that, but I traveled so much I couldn’t finish. But understanding that when you do a life’s work dedicated to something, I think it’s deserved. I’m saying that today for the first time, that looking back on my career, I did earn it. Kallas: Yes, you did. Tawfilis: And I’m very happy that my, if my dad were alive and I received a big award when I retired. I got the highest award you could get as a civilian and they gave me miniature medal. It’s from the military. As well as a big one. And when I went to Arlington I put that miniature beneath my dad’s cross at Arlington National Cemetery. And I, when I got my PhD, my first trip to Washington, D.C., afterwards I went directly there, and I told my dad “Guess what, dad? You wanted me to get an education, and I got a Ph.D.” Kallas: Wow, what a great note to close on. Thank you again. I really appreciate this. Tawfilis: Thank you. (Looking off camera to someone else) Did I put you to sleep? Unknown male voice: No, that’s a wrap. GLOSSARY: Aki (pg.11,12) Ambassador Chaudry (pg.8) Americorps (pg.4) Arlington National Cemetery (pg.16) Army Management Staff College (pg.4) Artist’s Alley (pg.2) Art Miles (pg.2,8) Back Cheese (pg.9) Base closure team (pg.3) Besan (near Russia) (pg.11) Bosnian Women’s Initiative (pg.5) Broadway Pier (pg.2) Chicano Park (pg.3) Chief Joseph (pg.3) Children’s Environmental Health Network (pg.9) Colville (pg.3) Endangered Planet Foundation (pg.15) Foulad (pg.8) Friendship Program (pg.2) Gigiri (pg.5) International Atomic Energy Agency (pg.4,5) International Decade for the Culture of Peace (pg.8,9) International Intercultural Mural Exchange (pg.10) Kettle Falls (pg.3) Luiseño (pg.13,14) Mahsa Amini (pg.12) Mashantucket Pequots (pg.14) Mural Museum (pg.2) Muramid Arts and Cultural Center (pg.9) Muramid Pyramid (pg.9) National Congress of American Indians (pg.10) Nespelem (pg.3) Orange Coast College (pg.6) Pablo Tac Elementary School (pg.14) “Painting Outside the Lines” (pg.6) Peace, Unity, Healing (pg.9) Sergeant Shriver (pg.4) Srebrenica (pg.5) “Stem to Steam” (pg.6) Submarine School (pg.2) Supercolor Photo (pg.9) Tuzla (pg.6) UNESCO Center for Peace (pg.14) United Nation Environment Program, Nairobi (pg.4) Vista Volunteer Program (pg.4) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_access.xml TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tawfilis, Joanne. Interview October 31, 2022. Description An account of the resource Joanne Tawfilis is the executive director of the Art Miles Mural Project, which has had the participation of over 500,000 people from 125 countries to paint murals. Tawfilis and her late husband Fouad started the Art Miles Mural Project after Tawfilis worked with orphans in Bosnia, where they created a murals using the only materials available -- a 10 gallon can of white wall pain and bedsheets riddled with bullet holes. The Art Miles Mural Project is currently homed at the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center in Oceanside, California, where there are electronic displays of over 5,000 murals, art classes, music, and spoken word performances. Tawfilis has had a storied career and has worked with the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Women of Srebrenica Project, and UNESCO. In her interview, Tawfillis discusses her career working as a civilian employee of the military, as well as her work with the United Nations, IAEA, and the Women of Srebrenica Project. Tawfilis also discusses the creation of the Art Miles Mural Project, the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, and her thoughts on art as a vehicle for healing, empathy, and peace. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-052 Subject The topic of the resource Art Miles Project Bosnian Women's Initiative International Atomic Energy Agency Military base closures Mural painting and decoration Muramid Art and Cultural Center (Oceanside, Calif.) Orphanages--Bosnia and Herzegovina Srebrenica Massacre, Srebrenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1995 Unesco United States. Army United States. Navy Women artists Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-31 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joanne Tawfilis Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Linda Kallas Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceanside (Calif.) Srebrenica (Bosnia and Herzegovina) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joanne Tawfilis License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Activists and activism Art and artists Community history North County Oral History Initiative Politics and governance Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/650df26fcebb5e908a3a6386a0e71713.pdf 91b6788af9d667a1f9d0118bd55f634c PDF Text Text TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 Transcript Linda Kallas: Today is October 31, 2022. I am Linda Kallas, and I am interviewing Joanne Tawfilis as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Thank you for joining me today, Joanne. Joanne Tawfilis: Thank you, Linda. Glad to be here. Kallas: It’s my pleasure. I’m going to give you some questions, and you’re going to answer them and to the best of your ability and we’ll just keep moving through the questions. Okay? Tawfilis: Okay, sounds good. Kallas: First of all, when and where were you born? Tawfilis: I was born in New London, Connecticut, and, um, a long time ago, [laughs] almost seventy-seven years. Kallas: And was your family an active part of any cultural communities where you grew up? Tawfilis: Actually, my family was one of the first Filipino American families in the town that I was born in. Um, we had a huge family, and then another family came and there was sort of a competition between the two families on, I think, who could have the most kids. Kallas: Oh! [chuckles] Tawfilis: And I think my dad won! [both Joanne and Linda laugh] Kallas: Um, so you didn’t grow up in North County. You moved here how many years ago? Tawfilis: Oh, it was—I moved here probably, um, in 1971, was when I first came to California. But then with my career I traveled all over the world, so I was back and forth on a regular basis. Uh, I had children and grandchildren here, and when I retired in the year 2000, I decided to settle here in paradise. [nods] Kallas: Nice. And how do you like living and working here since then? Tawfilis: Oh, I love San Diego County. Out of all the places I’ve ever been, I think that what I— I love the weather like everybody else, but it’s very multicultural, and, uh, makes life interesting that way. And grandchildren will always keep you where you are going to retire. Kallas: Um, do you feel like you’re part of the community? And do you have a support network? Tawfilis: I feel very much part of the community in many ways, but on―in some ways, no, because we’re—we’ve kind of discombobulated in this county where North County is kind of separated. But, I—my community is global, so it makes it a little bit interesting for me to try to be part of this community, despite the fact that I am, uh, running a multicultural center. Oceanside seems to be very focused on downtown and tourism, and, uh, I wanted to be here, even when I was downtown when we had our, um—it’s our studio and our center and our 1 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 museum, the first mural museum in the world in Artists’ Alley. I—I thought we were really integrated into the community, but when—when I had to move out and come down here, it’s been a little different because we’re—we’re—we’re not considered you know neighborly, I think, is my—my feeling. We—we—we’re here. I love being part of being imbedded into the community, especially the indigenous community, because the Center was supposed to be focused on multiculturalism, with the focus on indigenous people. Kallas: Um, so prior to doing what you do now at the Mural Museum and the Art Miles, you had another whole career. Can you talk a little bit about that? Tawfilis: Yeah. I started out doing illustration work with the U.S. government, and when computers came out, they scared the heck out of me, being a non-technical person and being kind of a—I think, at that time, a very snobby artist [laughs], and then when people tell you what they want painted on, or drawn with specific directions, I had to question “Why, then, do you need me, if you’re not going to use my creative brain.” And the computer-generated art didn’t appeal to me because of that. Although now it’s grown into such a great variety of software programs, you can do almost anything, even with your own art. But as a young artist, I didn’t see it that way. So I worked for the military for most of my career in civil service, and then later on, combined my civil service career with the United Nations, and got to travel, a lot! Kallas: Um, so, some of the work—you want to talk about some of the work you did for the military, Civil Service department? Tawfilis: Yeah. After doing illustration, um, at the Submarine School in Connecticut, where we—where I was born, and my ex-husband was military, we traveled and that’s how I came— came to California. Um, and I worked really hard doing graphics here. Um, I rose in my career there to, to when the Bicentennial happened in, uh, 1975–76, the Navy and the country’s Bicentennial, and I got a little bit famous because I coordinated the whole military celebration down at the Broadway Pier, and things like that. And, then when, uh, uh, I went as far as I could, as far as a illustrator, was go—was my part of my career, and they started to do more and more graphics. I mean I worked at every military base in San Diego that you could think of. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then an opportunity came to become, uh, the first civilian and woman to be a, an international military training coordinator, and that’s how I got really involved with the international work, because the job was to be like a cultural, um, leader for the military people that came and their families, and setting up Friendship programs, and ex—not exchange programs, because these were, these were guys that were being trained on the equipment in the ships that we sold as part of the―what they call an international military exchange training program, I met and several others. So, I worked through all the bases doing that, and really loved, um, starting programs for the military and introducing them to American culture. And that was my real first experience, and getting international people to know the native cultures. And I did a lot of—I spent a lot of time down in San Diego, and Chicano Park, and I used to have the military, even the officers, lay down in the, the big, uh, like a pagoda―I’ve forgotten what you 2 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 call it [chuckles], I think this is my senior moment―um, and look up to see the Inca and the Maya—Mayan civilization paintings, ‘cuz that’s where Chicano Park is sort of visualized and painted in amazing murals. And I did part of that on the bridge, the bridge stanchions that show how the Mexicans and the Spaniards came, and the farm workers came. And that was a lot of indigenous peoples from Mexico. And that got me interested. And then coming from Connecticut and New England where we had a lot of Native American tribes, a lot of international people ask about what happened to all the Indians in American culture? And a lot of—back then, a lot of international people only knew about cowboys and Indians, like most of us when we were growing up, you know, decades ago. And it also—it was very interesting to me because my minor in college was Native American Studies. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And that’s how I got introduced to it. But, you know, it was something that you think of academically, although it struck my heart because I was really angry at our educational system for not letting me know, among others, that where I grew up and lived most of my, you know, young adult life prior to college was Indian country. I mean, one of the thirteen colonies. And people don’t realize what kind of impact that had, has on people when you’re growing up. So, that affected my, my heart always. So, when I—in my career, I’ve always had that as a, I want to say, a big influence on what I’ve done to, to teach international people when I travel, both with the military and with the U.N. Kallas: Now, did the military send you to other countries as well? Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. I ended up—I started out doing, like I said, the international training stuff, but then I was on the base closure team, where my career went way up as far as getting higher promotions and better pay, and stuff like that. So I ended up, after doing base closures in most of the San Francisco Bay and Hawaii area, my territory was, I was one of twelve people that did the base closure studies. And then I had an opportunity—kind of as a fluke—to apply for an international job with the Army, and my supervisor and I both did it, um, as a—I don’t know, we just got a, a bug to say, “Oh, let’s see what happens if we apply to do what we’re doing here in the States, doing base closures.” And so, they offered her a job, and she turned it down. And they said “Oh well, the next person on the list is right in your office. Can we talk to her?” That was me! And so I ended up going to Germany. At the time I had been working for the Navy for over twenty years, in different positions like I said, from illustrator to management analyst, and working at foreign training and base closures. So then I ended up going to the Army in Germany, and that was, uh, right after, um, the Bicentennial had ended, and then I did a stint with—I took some time, and got, went on loan as a Vista volunteer, and went up to the Nespelem reservation in Colville, Kettle Falls area of Washington. I got really lucky cuz’ my hero was Chief Joseph [chuckles] and so I worked on that reservation in a parent aid program. But that’s another whole thing that maybe we could talk about later. Because going back to the military, I did this closing the bases in Europe and I became one of the heads of the base closure team there, and that’s how I got to travel to just about every European country there was. And, um, from there, I got recruited by the state department and through my federal military civilian job, went to work for the United Nations in, in Austria after the base closure job in Germany, that I went onward to, 3 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 um, working on loan again. I went on loan from the Navy to the Army, from the Army to the International Atomic Energy Agency, and on loan again to the United Nations Environment Program in Nairobi. I mean there were jobs in between, but, and like I say that the stint I did at— I got to continue my career, even though I stopped working for the military for two years to work on, um, the Vista volunteer program. When Shriv—Sergeant Shriver started the Peace Corps, he also started the Vista volunteer program, which is now, I think, Americorps. So I was in that first round. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And then I went back to civil service and continued on, and onward to U.N. Kallas: And did they send you to, um, war torn countries, and where there was a lot of political unrest— Tawfilis: Oh, yeah. Kallas: —as a representative? TAWFILIS: Yeah. When I went to, um—well, I could say my first stint overseas in Germany with the Army was when the wall came down. And I had just adopted two more children, and uh, I remember during that time the―when the wall came down, my kids were like, like—they were adopted from Mexico, and then—but they were Americans in a sense, so they were Mexican descent. And it was really interesting for them to learn German, so you see two little Mexicans speaking in German [chuckles]. It was kind of cool. And, um, but the war torn part of it was―my job was because the war was over, the Cold War, and the wall came down, the government decided that’s why they wanted to close the bases because they didn’t need that anymore. We had so much military might invested in Germany because that was the actual front, that it made my job easy because the, the common sense of the economic support that they did for Europe, um, on the, well, it was called the front, made sense to start closing the bases. And so, I became a superstar, doing that, because I had people skills, so the generals that I worked for decided that it was great to have a woman civilian go give the commanding officers of the base the good news and the bad news that their base was going to be closed. And as a result of that, I was one of four women chosen to be, um, a member or take part in a study to decide whether civilians should become executive officers of military bases. So, they sent us to Army Management Staff College, and I was one of the four women that attended that. And so, the idea would be that I would become an executive officer of a military base so they could station military in the field. The problem with that is there’s no military that’s going to listen to a civilian as a boss. So, you can ask my son-in-law about that, ‘cuz he was Army. In fact, my daughter met him there in Germany. But, yeah, that was one. And then with the U.N., when I went to Africa, there’s all kinds of―I want to say―conflicts going on, including Somalia, Rwanda, during all that time, and so, yeah, I saw a lot. In fact, I was car-napped and my own personal safety was in danger there, not only from being exposed to so many people that were dying of AIDS, but because of the tribal—there’s like forty tribes in Nairobi alone and there were conflicts and a lot of cultural differences between the tribal people and a lot of, um, little―I want to say―mini wars going on 4 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 and the political strife, and then of course, it was pretty bloody with Rwanda and then Somalia in that area. But I got to travel all over Africa, looking at—my job there was to consolidate the U.N. organizations in Nairobi and the base was called Gigiri, and, um, I got in trouble there, because I tried to support the local indigenous people with the financial area. So, if you want to talk about wars, and danger, and stuff like that, I think people think of shooting, you know, and bombs and stuff. But there’s other kind of wars, like economic ones. And I came up with this idea that civil service employees in international organizations should be cay—should be paid equally. But they have this system in the U.N. where local nationals are―have to go through a wage classification survey and they get the prevailing wage rate, whatever that country is. So, in other words, my secretary in Austria would get $3,000 a month, but my secretary in Nairobi would get $300 dollars a month. Kallas: Oh... Tawfilis: Yeah. And I just didn’t think that made sense, working with the U.N. So, it was kind of a battle there, and I think that was the biggest war for me, is trying to help the local nationals. And I did some―I want to say―out of the ordinary things, like promoting them when other people went out on mission they would hire people to come in and pay them exorbitant amounts of money, including me, because I, I was on a stipend on a daily basis, in addition to my very high salary. But the work was done by the local people. I think that happens everywhere, that the real worker bees don’t get recognized for the, all the work that they do, and they carry on the mission of whatever that country’s, you know, objectives are. And so, I think that’s one of the reasons I got car-napped, because I had a big mouth and I actually wrote a book about how to flatten the United Nations. So, they sent me back. I was on loan from the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna, Austria to Africa, and because I tried to help the local people, I think I wasn’t going to go much further, after ten years, you know, working for the U.N. So, that was my personal battle when you talk about wars, and dangerous things. I mean, when you get to the point where they don’t want you to talk―and it wasn’t the U.N. that did it―it was a person that probably wanted the job that I had―that arranged for this kidnapping or car-napping that I survived. So… Kallas: So, you also, um, had spent time in Bosnia during that— Tawfilis: Yeah, at the end of my career— Kallas: —that was after all the— Tawfilis: with—I was getting ready to retire and, uh, because I was on loan as a very highranked civilian, the only place they could put me would be the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. and I didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. I’d been at the headquarters many times with my job with the Army. I did a lot of stuff for the Army, like I said. And I really didn’t want to move to Washington, D.C. So, they gave me a choice of going to Bosnia and working with the widows at Srebrenica, at the end of the conflict in the Balkans between the―where Yugoslavia had broken up. And I went on an interview sponsored by the Clinton Foundation to be the Director of the Bosnian Women’s Initiative or what they—most people know as the Widows of Srebrenica, 5 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 where at some point they gathered the Bosnian women together―and I should say the Bosnian families together―in their village called Srebrenica which was a safe haven. And unfortunately it wasn’t a very well protected safe haven, and on July tenth and eleventh in 197―uh, 1995, the Serbs came in and gave the people ten minutes to come outside, and they put the women on one side of the street, women and children under fourteen and old people, real old people, and then they put the men and boys on the other side and then they took all the women, put them on buses and sent them to a village in the mountains, in Tuzla. And the men disappeared. They found some mass graves. They found some bodies in a forest where they were―tried to run away, I guess, some of the men. And, but they never found the whole―I would say, whole group of the over six to seven thousand. They, they suspect―there’s a lot of theories, and a lot of books written about it. But my job was to work with the women and help them do economic development and to heal and to also help identify bodies and get all their data because they had no pictures of their families. They had, you know, all this stuff that they—they left with nothing. And then to try to help reconciliation between the three entities, and I ended up, you know, working my, my heart and my head off, because working with people who have lost everything and witnessed the destruction of their country and their families getting killed and murdered and their men disappearing, and these were mostly farm women that didn’t even know how to write their name. So, I think I worked harder in my life those three or four years that I was there doing everything from gathering information to help put the war crimes together because these people were still on the loose. And then throughout the years, the military would find them and capture the war crime perpetrators and bring them to the Hague and they were imprisoned, and some of them—I won’t name names—passed away in prison before they could be tried. But it was terrible trying to identify remains with the women. Maybe it would be just shreds of a shirt but they recognized their husbands. And then having all that emotional—I think I have a whole book of stories I could write about their suffering. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: But because of that, I was encouraged to go work in the orphanage and there three hundred fifty orphans. I have a TED talk online, TED-X from Orange Coast College. And, it was―it’s called “Painting Outside the Lines.” I also have one from UCSD “Stem to Steam” because I put the art part in there. But back to the Bosnian situation and I guess as the point of my career that changed my life that we were going to talk about, because when I saw what the children had gone through and I―they―they told me—you were getting— I was getting very depressed, and they said “you need to go work in this orphanage.” So, the three hundred fifty orphans from all three entities, but they had not found or located all families. So, some of the kids had no survivors. I understand that most of them they were able to place them years later. But while I was there, my―my, uh, free time, if you want to call it free time, was to go and work with these kids to do art. And then after about three months of just sketching and coloring and stuff, they asked if they could make a very big painting and I interpreted that as a mural. And so if you―you’ll hear on the TED talk, how we found bed sheets in a closet that were full of sort of darned holes and the―they explained to me that the young ladies in Europe learn how to sew, which we did away with here in the United States. But there they sew everything. So, when they 6 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 pulled out the sheets, and they had all these little stitches, and some still had holes, I, when I asked them what the holes were about, they said “Well, this used to be a hospital, and it was bombed. So these were from the shells and the shrapnel that, that, you know, made holes in the walls and the bedding and the whole bit of the ugly hospital beds over there.” So, what I did was the Army had left a 10-gallon pan―pail of white flat, white wall paint and I, I had them sew two sheets together and I put masking tape on the back where I thought there were the least amount of holes and then I just painted. I put a whole bunch of newspaper, and in the morning it turned into a very stiff canvas! So, we had a canvas and the kids got very excited. Every time I think about their faces when they saw that, and then it was like “Oh, we’ve got to paint that whole thing?” You know… Kallas: So, that’s when your two careers intersected, so you kind of went back to—. Tawfilis: Right. Kallas: roots, and— TAWFILIS: And I got to do art, right? So, but what changed my life were the, the children and the oldest one was about eighteen and then they had a little eighteen or nineteen-month-old baby in there, and they divided the kids up into groups of five. And they took two older, mostly teens, and then three younger kids, so they could take care of each other, ‘cuz they only had five people running this whole orphanage. There was psychologist, and then the other four were caregivers, and they cooked for them, and made sure that they were, you know, trying to keep them busy. There were—I don’t even think they had formal education for them, because there was nothing. And they were just being protected and fed, and trying—and I think doing the art was a real important thing in their lives. So, how my life changed was, the kids started—I said “you have to decide what you want to paint.” So, what they—I had them do, is I said “Draw something that you want on this canvas.” So, they all did it, and I still have some of the sketches. I should have brought some. But they, they, they had to come up with an idea that would go on the canvas. So, we looked at all the drawings and they started forming this dialogue and they started talking to each other. And you have to understand these kids were very depressed themselves, and they had these real— Kallas: Traumatized. Tawfilis: Yeah. They were all traumatized and they were kind of afraid of each other when they were—they knew that one was a Serb, and one was a Croat, and one was Bosnian. And they didn’t―they matched them up by age, not so much by what sect of religion they belonged to. So, and in children weren’t so attuned, maybe the older ones were a little bit more conscious of their religious differences, whatever. But in the discussions that they were doing, they started talking about the trauma that they had gone through. And some of the kids knew each other from the different villages that they had come from. And I found myself going outside, crying myself, because they started talking about what they saw, what they felt. And even now, when I think about it, it’s still—it burns a hole in your heart, but it—I wondered how this was going to work. And I’d go back in, and then they decided on a theme. And what was happening is they were going through a catharsis themselves, and they ended up with coming up with the theme 7 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 “Yesterday and Tomorrow.” And the Yesterday section of this one―I guess we would call it a triptych in our art language, Yesterday, they did sketches of houses that had no roofs, ‘cuz they’d blown up. Airplanes dropping bombs, and then because the women were wearing kerchiefs because they were Bosnian Muslim, they had their heads covered. There, a lot of the little drawings had little pictures of women lined up, going, and they remembered having to come out of the houses in Srebrenica and line up on the other side of the street. So you saw―you would see sketches of that, and dragons, and just ugly things that they, fires, things burning. And then the middle section where they had put the groups of five together, they drew their little new families, which was really cute. Kallas: That’s awesome. TAWFILIS: And then on the third panel was, were flowers and clowns and balloons and stuff like that. So they called it “Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow.” So after five days of going through that, I can say that was a life changer for me, and, and I was telling my husband about it, and we, we made that first mural, and he was in the process of constructing a new building, me, a gallery, and we called it Avenida de Los Artistas. So, we had a Spanish name in a German country, speaking country in Austria. We started, he started doing murals, or I started it on the wall, one of the walls of the museum that was being built, at the gallery. So, when I’d go back home, we were making murals, and after about a hundred of them we said “we should make this a project.” Because the latch kids would be coming, then the schools started sending kids over. So we turned it into a project, and actually Foulad, my husband, was the man who came up with the idea of calling it “Art Mile.” We didn’t know it was going to turn into twelve miles! But that’s how it started. And then at one point I met a professor from Wesleyan University, and I did some murals. The very first mural we did outside of Bosnia was in Austria. And then on one of my trips back to Connecticut, I met this professor from Wesleyan, and we did one at the university there. And he said “You need to tell the U.N. about your project.” And, so, there are lots of things going on, wars, conflicts all over. And so the United Nations had set up a program called the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And it was founded by Ambassador Chaudry of the U.N. who was at the time Under Secretary General for small developing nations and island nations. And he had written the resolution to start this International Decade from 2001 to the end of 2010. And so my husband and I had this crazy idea of going to New York and getting him to support it as a U.N. project. And at the same time, the son, the grandson of Jacques Cousteau heard about us, and said “I’d love to see what you’re doing. Maybe you should do murals about the sea.” So he flew from London and met us at the famous hotel in New York, and I was, while I was there to meet Ambassador Chaudry and said he would love to see us do murals about the oceans and the sea and the water. And at that time he was at grad school, I believe. And so our very first celebrity fan was Phillipe Cousteau, the son of Phillipe Cousteau, who passed away in a plane crash. He was one of the two sons of Jacques Cousteau. So we went on to the U.N. and just unrolled five canvases, one of them was done in Nairobi, and it went all the way down the hallway, cuz they were five feet by twelve feet, so we had almost fifty feet of canvas going down the hallway and Ambassador Chaudry’s office took up a whole floor of People in the U.N. building and they all came and looked at it and they all fell in love with the project. And that’s when we got his support and endorsement, and we started doing murals. And 8 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 now we’ve got over twelve miles of murals from all over the world, which many of them are right here in this building. And our headquarters is in North County and Oceanside. Kallas: And that is called? Tawfilis: The Muramid Arts and Cultural Center. We had it set up as the first mural museum in the world, and for people who don’t know the word “Muramid” comes from murals that were being constructed into a pyramid which we had set up a project. My husband came up with the design and he did the photography of over a thousand murals and did them in miniature because we were going to create the Muramid Pyramid at the great Pyramids in Giza. And at the time, we had also, I had retired. We had moved to Egypt. We have a home there. And my husband spent a lot of time and a lot of money. What we called Back Cheese, with the paying under the table to the Minister of Education, Minister of Culture, to do a fourth pyramid to be constructed with piping, I don’t know if they call it, it wasn’t the PPV―PVC piping, it was metal. And he designed that. And then a company here in Oceanside―not Oceanside,―in Irvine, “Supercolor Photo,” were kind enough to make the model and take my husband’s design of the miniature murals and make a cover. And we were able to have a ten-foot model that we were going, we used in several places. In fact, we have ten models all over the world right now, including Japan. And we participated in international conferences and things like that. And the whole idea was to have, to have [someone enters the room, off camera] I thought I locked the door, sorry. Anyway, the whole idea was at the end of 2010 we would have this celebration to commemorate the closing of the International Decade for the Culture of Peace. And then, what happened was, because we had so many conflicts we ended up with a second decade, which ended at the end of 2021. Kallas: Now all of your—you have twelve themes for your Art Miles. Tawfilis: Mm-hmm. Kallas: Can you share a little bit about that, and what, what people gained from doing these murals? Tawfilis: Sure. The first thing that we did was Peace, Unity, and Healing. And then we ended up with the Women, because the women’s influence on art and healing. That’s where the healing part came in. And you know when you think about peace, unity, and healing, then you talk about women and their role in it. And then we started environment, because everybody started complaining, and worrying about climate change. And as you know, that has a subject that has increased so many, so much all over the world. And it’s happening. We’re all experiencing that. And then we started doing murals in response to every human and natural disaster. That’s even when 9/11 happened in 2001, it was a big deal and we did, like, many murals and actually exhibited some of them on, at Ground Zero. We were there, doing the mural, at Georgetown University on September 11. And we got sequestered into the hotel that we were staying at, because we were doing a Children’s Environmental Health Network thing. But anyway, back to the themes, so that’s how the environment started. We, the third one was Children’s Environmental Health Network where they actually did a film about us there. And while we were doing that, we ended up being, watching the Twin Towers come down. And then from there we 9 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 started Children’s and then Fairytale and then Sports and Music, and so now we have Hero and we had—then we started the Japanese government, or I should say our Japanese team started doing an exchange program. They called it, they call it the International Intercultural Mural Exchange where they do half of a mural in Japan and the other half in another country, with another school. So, there’s four hundred forty murals for each themed. They’re all, not all five by twelve, some of them are half sized. But our goal was to at least get to twelve miles, and then in 2008 we attempted to break the Guinness Book of World Records. But three weeks before that, we found out that the United Arab Emirates had already done that with the longest mural in the world. And we couldn’t surpass it, because they, they would, they did like ten-mile, not ten miles, ten murals more than us. But, even the, the grand master, whatever they call them, that comes to do the, to officiate measurements stuff, said ours weren’t connected, and they want a continuous theme. So, what the, what happened with the United Arab Emirates, they did, they did, I think at that time, like four miles, about women, and it was done for International Women’s Day and they featured the, all the children. And all the schools did murals about the sheikah, or the queen, I guess. And then they had to burn it, because it was done on paper, and Islam doesn’t allow images. So, but they did break the record. Plus, it cost ten thousand dollars to bring the guy over, and we didn’t have that kind of money. We still don’t have that kind of money, because we do it all from our hearts, very few donations. Kallas: And can you talk a little bit of how the initial concept of murals has evolved over the years, compared to where you started in Bosnia, and to where you are right now with the murals. Tawfilis: Yeah. I think the biggest change is education. We found that education has come to the forefront because whenever, whatever thing you’re working on, it teaches you something, you know, whether it’s fairy tales that are originally thought of by children and from their imaginations or sports. There are―you learn what the sport’s all about. Music, the same thing. We’ve even had music murals created while people are looking at a mural and they write music about it. And then, or vice versa. Or when it’s in the indigenous mile. At one time we presented a—because I was in Connecticut at the time, we had someone present the idea of doing—we discovered there were five hundred fifty recognized tribes. And so they did a resolution at the National Congress of American Indians, NCAI, that each tribe would contribute a mural. But we got so busy, and then my husband passed away. We have never followed up on that. I don’t know how long those resolutions last. But I would love to revive it. But since that time, I’ve also discovered there’s a whole bunch of non-recognized tribes. And I think that has appealed to me more, because I feel like, how could you not recognize a tribe? I don’t care. I know that there, their requirements have DNA and numbers of members and whether they have a reservation or whatever. But, it’s not accounting, some of the tribes don’t get credit for just being there, and being there first. And they were decimated by whatever colonial tribe or―how would I say―shouldn’t be―that’s the wrong word―colonial influence that came in and took over those lands, even in our own wars, in the Civil War. Even before that, they, you know, the genocide of Native Americans is something that most Americans don’t even know about. They don’t even know about there’s so many tribes in every country that they went through the same thing. You know, the genocide of every African nation. There’s thirty-three countries in Africa! And most Americans don’t know that. There―you could go there, and you could say “The Dutch took over 10 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 this country. The Italians did this country. The Brits did this.” You know. And they left their influence, but they also started slavery, and brought it here. And then―and I think that’s why there is a bond between a lot of Native Americans. When you―one thing I’ve even discovered more of later in my life is how Native Americans helped so many slaves, you know, following the Civil War. Protected them, and hid them, and intermarried, and that’s why there’s a lot of controversy among white people about―they had this concept the Indians were “red.” First of all, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a red person, or a yellow Chinese person, or maybe caramel, like me. [both she and Linda chuckle] And when you think of black, kids in school when you say “These are Africans.” They use black crayons or black paint. There are some very black people, I think. Some countries have all shades. India has black India people from East India. And Senegal people mostly are darker than most, you know. But there’s also a whole shades, hues of people. But like Aki, our drummer, says “Inside we all have red blood. We all have bones.” You know, and when we all die, you can’t tell, maybe by the―anthropologists will tell you about the skulls and the framework and stuff like that. But color? No. Religion, you know, that’s another thing. So, the other—to get back to your question. The other evolution has been healing. I think the focus now is more on healing, because we have so much―what’s the word―conflicts around the world. And then personal violence going on with school shootings and the massive massacres with massive killings all over and accidents and natural disasters, with hurricanes and floods. Right here in California, the fires, right here! They came right up to the back door here, you know. And if you drive up through the mountains going to, to go buy a pie, you’re going to find out. You drive through all the reservation areas and you see where the fires from the past―you see those still the black, some of the trees, and there’s a big contrast with the silhouettes of those trees and then the―now the overgrown greenery. It’s so beautiful, and you know, things like that. So, healing has made a big difference, because when people―and what I’m really, I think, what I’d like to share in this interview with you―is that healing isn’t just the murals that we send to the people who have been become victims and their families of those who were killed or injured in these horrible violent events or disasters. It’s us, ourselves. When each school shooting happens, how many parents and people with a heart feel that pain, of, of—I can’t—every time I hear of a school shooting, I think of those poor little kids, and I grieve for them and for their families and for the friends and the neighbors that were there. And my first exposure to that was actually the, the widows watching those children, and then 9/11 when the Red Cross had murals being done all over. We have some amazing murals that came from all over the country and the world, displaying their feelings. And one of them, one of the ones that stands out in my mind, is Hope, Alaska did one. And it, the whole mural is the word “Hope” but inside the word “Hope” they drew people, and a lot of native and indigenous people are in that. And then, when Sandy Hook happened from my, where I’m from, Connecticut, I went there, and to see those little children, you know. How can anybody go in and kill all those little tiny kindergarten kids, and the teachers? And then what people don’t know there’s, in America, there’s a place called Besan, near Russia, where the radicals, and the— Kallas: Government was involved in―. 11 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 Tawfilis: Yeah, over two hundred people, two hundred kids and teachers killed. And then again, recently, you know, I mean we could go on and on. And every time we did a mural, it was like once or twice a year, and now, I mean, I think in July we had three shootings, and, you know, things we had to respond to. And actually, I’m behind! We haven’t been able to do, Massa from the, Mahsa Imani―Amini, from the―from Iran, because we’re so busy. We just finished Ukraine, you know. There’s just, St. Louis. All this stuff keeps happening. So, healing! Kallas: So, part of your process in dealing with this tragedy is there’s a healing element for you to respond to those through a mural. And you send those murals to those places, correct? Tawfilis: Yeah. And we’ve been lucky. Sometimes we hear back, and sometimes we don’t. Because you can’t expect everybody, every city and town, to say “Oh, gosh, all these people.” You know, people send food and clothing. And a lot of people do art and murals and flowers and, and stuff like that. So, I know, you know, part of giving, what people don’t understand is we give and we do murals from our heart. We don’t expect a lot in return. What I expect is when people paint a mural to send that they are sharing that same emotion that I feel that they want people to know that we’re thinking of them, and that we’re sending our prayers and good wishes. I know people think that a lot of non-governmental organizations do things for money. Well, we’re, we’re a great example of “No” [laughs], because― Kallas: Non-profit. Tawfilis: Yeah, we are a true non-profit. And my husband and I and a lot of people have contributed. We don’t have an overhead staff that we, we pay for. We can’t. We just don’t, you know. Thank goodness we have good―there’s so many―I focus on the good people and the good things that come. If I started thinking about what I have or what I don’t, you know, what I don’t have, with other organizations that get grants, and they have sponsors and philanthropists look at them, I would never be able to do what I do. At this age, I’m just now starting―we have a Foundation that we’re working on, and my goal is to finally, if I realize it, if I want to have a legacy in the name, in the memory of my husband who gave up his career, and out of my true care and I say, I want to say concern for people who are suffering, and indigenous people, I think that’s why I want it here. That’s what brought my here. I think the Creator, whoever your Creator is, my Creator is a number of spiritual things, that I saw this place that we’re sitting in right now before we opened the Muramid and Artists Alley. And my husband said “It’s too small. It looks like a house!” And it was full of crazy stuff that had been here before. So, it was neglected and smelly. It didn’t have high ceilings when we peeked in the windows, and he, he just kind of passed it on. But, something called out to me in this place. And I remember driving around one day after I knew I had to leave Artists Alley, because he passed away. I hadn’t, didn’t have the infrastructure and the help that I do now with Aki and his drumming and neighbors and friends and people that have helped put this thing together. I remember driving around and it still had a For Rent style on here―sign―and I parked the car and I called the guy and the property manager. And it was still in the same shape that it had been, I guess, six years before. So, this place had been empty for a while. I think maybe something might have happened in between, but I doubt it, because judging from when we did get inside, and there was a lot of feces, dead animals, all 12 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 kinds of stuff. But I can feel this place. When we took down the ceiling, because it was that―what do they call it―insulation hanging down, and I looked at the wood, and I realized “Wow, this place was here a long time ago.” I didn’t know the history of the place, but I’ve been told it was the original general store for the Mission. Kallas: Oh. Tawfilis: And then when I found out about the Mission and, you know, being a Catholic, in a former life, I thought “Wow, this is pretty cool!” Then I remember reading, like other things in Connecticut, that there were people here before the Mission came, and I got really passionate about “I’m going to put it right there.” And I want to dedicate the place to the Luiseño, because I found out that they are the people that this belongs to. And everybody that comes in the door, every single person, I can’t think of one that hasn’t come in the door for the first time and goes “Wow! This place, it has such great karma. It feels warm and friendly, and it’s inviting and it’s good to be in here and it’s so creative.” And I went [claps her hands together] “Yes! That’s what we’re all about.” And so, I think we are an important piece of the history of this place because I feel like an archive in here, of some sort. And the Mural Project has found its home, and I think that’s an important part of being the history up here in the North County, to have a project that’s global in scope that has been participated in by over a half a million people from over a hundred countries. To land in a place that is based on what everybody should know about indigenous communities. My hope is that―and I started out with my husband and I both said, you know, before we wanted to feature different cultures, because we felt that Americans weren’t quite educated enough to understand the diversity and the richness of cultures from other people, and other countries, including this country, you know. There’s so many―and I don’t want to use the term “white”―but there’s a lot of American, white people who don’t understand that they came here from other countries as well. And in their own country, if they look back in their roots, they’ll find out that they come in different shades as well. Kallas: Mm-hmm. Tawfilis: And that the stolen land―you know, recently I watched a documentary about Alabama where the last slave ship came in and it was against the law to even bring slaves after 1860 or something like that. But it was one ship’s captain who said “I can show you how to do it, and I’m going to prove it.” And he did it out of rebellion and brought a hundred and twenty slaves from Africa, made them get off the ship, near Mobile, Alabama, and in the water, the swamp, they got on to the land. I understand they stayed there for a few weeks and then they divided them into three different plantations. But they burned that ship in that. They said they wanted to get rid of the evidence. Well, that was a genocide in and off itself, of history. And now after four hundred years or whatever, they’re finding all these remnants. You can go anywhere, even here. When we started doing the back, we found a cross in the yard that, that must have been buried in the ground from whatever was here before. And I always wondered what happened and what’s going on with all this gentrification and the new building over there. It hurts my heart. And I talked to a Luiseño member who is one of our drummers, a woman, she said “every time she goes by” and she’s a school bus driver, she said “it hurts my heart.” Because she knows there’s another thing 13 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 covering it up and erasing part of the history of this place. And I’m really sorry that, you know, recently the newspaper said “the wave just got approved with the valley over there, and the rest of the valley. And I live in a place that I look at that, and I, I could cry just thinking about it. Right across the street from Pablo Tac Elementary School. They’re going to build a wave park like we need one so close to the ocean? I mean, come on. Commercialization is just really destroying the natural history of many places including right here where we live. So, I’m hoping that the owner of the properties here will never let this place become that wave even though I can see a beautiful little old town here. You know, I like to see more cultural things happen here. And I’d love to see the cultural district expand from downtown to where the real history is here. I mean, uh, it’s to me almost sinful that we don’t put more emphasis on what the history of this area, of Oceanside, is all about. It’s all on the front, at the waterfront. It’s all commercial. They even destroyed the waterfront in my eyes, by putting all that, the hotels and stuff. Kallas: Well, in trying to put it all together here, in breadth and in depth is community building. Tawfilis: Correct. Kallas: Through the murals, through the other work you’ve done. It seems to be the main theme of your life, and now you have the Center. And doesn’t it also have something to do with UNESCO? Tawfilis: Yes! We recently became the UNESCO Center for Peace for all of California and Baja. And with that I think will help enhance my opportunity and all the people that work with us to bring more cultural education and healing to this area, and to educate people about what real peace begins with me, and our neighbors and our families. And then, you know, I know this all sounds very philosophical but it’s true, you know. And, um, I think we have a pretty good mayor who supports local people more than others that I’ve seen. Maybe it’s because I see her out there in the community more than I’ve seen other mayors do. And I know that she is of Mexican descent, but I also believe that Mexicans have a lot of indigenous people here as well. Kallas: Right. Tawfilis: And when I talk about Mexicans, I don’t mean that they are the invaders of the people that took over. They too have been, you know, victims of genocide. All this belonging to part of that. But the first people here from all the history that I have been able to do my own research on, were the Luiseños. And so, my passion and dedication is going to be based on that. I am going to be looking at other cultures and introducing the people of the world to our local community through this center. But this is―This year, the Valley Arts Festival will feature my dedication to that. As I have this painting behind me. It’s kind of weird that we have this Mexican lady, native, behind me, and then my dancer, and then I am going to do a dedicated mural to the Spirit of the Valley, and to the tribal captain and a woman who happens to be his sister who I think is, in my eyes, the official historian of just about everything that could ever happen to the Luiseños here. And I feel very fortunate, um, coming from where I do, and what I did in Connecticut with the Mashantucket Pequots to see them grow and have the best museum in my eyes, in the whole world, indigenous or otherwise because it’s interactive. To be with people that are still alive that I can talk to and interact with that live right here in this community. So… 14 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 Kallas: So, going forward, what, um, what other projects are on the horizon for you. Tawfilis: Well― Kallas: Besides what you just talked about, are there other avenues that you’re going to pursue? Tawfilis: Oh, thank you for asking. Because one way of documenting history is books. So, I’m writing, actually there’ll be four books that I hope will be coming from me. But interacting with other people, we’re doing, taking the murals now, what am I going to do with twelve miles of murals? My goal is to convince the Smithsonian that they need to take these, because to me it’s a visual documentation of two decades or more of history by the people and for the people. This is their words, not some author who wrote a book about the history of something. It’s from all over the world, and it addresses social issues everywhere. So, what I’m hoping to do is we have a Foundation that we’re going to be―we are part of, called the Endangered Planet Foundation, and our project will, will be embracing that and taking the mural images and trying to create practical products from the mural images and raising money through the sales of textiles and books and things like that, tangible things that can go into a fund that will keep this project going, and long after I’m gone. Hopefully until then I can help form a solid board and we can end up hiring a staff which we’ve never had, to carry on this project, because I think it’s something that can continue. Mural art has been growing all over the world. The cave men have come a long way from their images to creating murals not just on walls but on canvas and ours is mobile. I wanted to have a voice for people that could be shared, not stuck on a wall that you’re never going to― I’m maybe some people will never get to Machu Pichu or to the Egyptian temples and pyramids or caves where we have here in the United States with etchings and things on them. So, this way we can bring people closer together. So that’s the future, is I want to leave a legacy and because I know what works. What other non-profit organization can survive for almost twenty-five years with no money? I’ll tell you why. Because people believe in it, and we believe in it with all our hearts and souls. And, as nearing my seventy-seventh birthday, I bypassed seventy-five because of Covid. I think we have proof in the pudding, so, yeah, that’s the plan, is to continue. Kallas: And speaking from personal experience, I’ve actually experienced the healing process and that sense of community where we’re all working on the same thing at the same time. There’s just so much unity in that and it’s very, you could really internalize that. Tawfilis: Well you know the big―bottom line is mural art gives you a chance to express yourself even with a group, because as you know doing quilt, we do that kind of style with murals as well, in different forms or whatever. You get to express yourself individually but you do it with a group and it brings you all closer together, and in doing so you talk to each other, and the bottom line is you find out how much more we have in common than we have in differences. Which sounds like a cliché, but boy it’s true. Kallas: It’s very true. Tawfilis: We actually do it. And we make ourselves, I mean, better people because we get to know and appreciate other people’s opinions, even if we don’t agree with them. We hear what they’re thinking and feeling, and we learn a lot from each other. And I think that’s how peace is 15 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 going to happen, when we begin to open our minds and our hearts to understanding that we’re different but we all have the same basic common needs. We all want to eat. We all want to be able to have a home over our heads and feel safe. And the richness of having other cultures influencing your life―it’s like if you’re only going to eat American hot dogs and hamburgers, what a boring life that would be, right? [Linda laughs] I always think of it simplistically like that because you end up going “Gee, I like Thai food. I like Chinese food. I like Italian food. Whatever.” Well, that comes from people, you know. And so, the blend and the magic of seeing the dancing from, and the music, the different forms of music, and you can be native American and play rock-n-roll music. I happen to know somebody who can do that and do it well. Or a Filipino that can sing beautiful, musical songs. Or the homeless people with the choir that was started right here from North County. I mean I think that’s a great, you know, cultural contribution to history. So. Kallas: Well, Joanne, thank you so much. It’s been an honor and a privilege to do this interview with you. And I want to repeat something I recently told a mutual friend about you, that I truly think you are a work of art. Tawfilis: Oh, my goodness. Kallas: And I just thank you so much. Tawfilis: Well, thank you. And I also want to say that I did get a PhD at the age of 71. So, my message to all those who think that you never learned and you can’t earn a degree as you get older, you’re wrong. You can get it, and mine was honorary, and I’m really proud of it now because I used to think―I’m very humble about it because I do understand how much hard work goes in to doing a dissertation. I almost got there. I could have done that, but I traveled so much I couldn’t finish. But understanding that when you do a life’s work dedicated to something, I think it’s deserved. I’m saying that today for the first time, that looking back on my career, I did earn it. Kallas: Yes, you did. Tawfilis: And I’m very happy that my, if my dad were alive and I received a big award when I retired. I got the highest award you could get as a civilian and they gave me miniature medal. It’s from the military. As well as a big one. And when I went to Arlington I put that miniature beneath my dad’s cross at Arlington National Cemetery. And I, when I got my PhD, my first trip to Washington, D.C., afterwards I went directly there, and I told my dad “Guess what, dad? You wanted me to get an education, and I got a Ph.D.” Kallas: Wow, what a great note to close on. Thank you again. I really appreciate this. Tawfilis: Thank you. [Looking off camera to someone else] Did I put you to sleep? Unknown male voice: No, that’s a wrap. 16 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 GLOSSARY: Aki (pg.11,12) Ambassador Chaudry (pg.8) Americorps (pg.4) Arlington National Cemetery (pg.16) Army Management Staff College (pg.4) Artist’s Alley (pg.2) Art Miles (pg.2,8) Back Cheese (pg.9) Base closure team (pg.3) Besan (near Russia) (pg.11) Bosnian Women’s Initiative (pg.5) Broadway Pier (pg.2) Chicano Park (pg.3) Chief Joseph (pg.3) Children’s Environmental Health Network (pg.9) Colville (pg.3) Endangered Planet Foundation (pg.15) Foulad (pg.8) Friendship Program (pg.2) Gigiri (pg.5) International Atomic Energy Agency (pg.4,5) International Decade for the Culture of Peace (pg.8,9) International Intercultural Mural Exchange (pg.10) Kettle Falls (pg.3) Luiseño (pg.13,14) Mahsa Amini (pg.12) Mashantucket Pequots (pg.14) 17 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �TAWFILIS, JOANNE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-31 Mural Museum (pg.2) Muramid Arts and Cultural Center (pg.9) Muramid Pyramid (pg.9) National Congress of American Indians (pg.10) Nespelem (pg.3) Orange Coast College (pg.6) Pablo Tac Elementary School (pg.14) “Painting Outside the Lines” (pg.6) Peace, Unity, Healing (pg.9) Sergeant Shriver (pg.4) Srebrenica (pg.5) “Stem to Steam” (pg.6) Submarine School (pg.2) Supercolor Photo (pg.9) Tuzla (pg.6) UNESCO Center for Peace (pg.14) United Nation Environment Program, Nairobi (pg.4) Vista Volunteer Program (pg.4) 18 Transcribed by Melissa Martin � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tawfilis, Joanne. Interview transcript, October 31, 2022. Description An account of the resource Joanne Tawfilis is the executive director of the Art Miles Mural Project, which has had the participation of over 500,000 people from 125 countries to paint murals. Tawfilis and her late husband Fouad started the Art Miles Mural Project after Tawfilis worked with orphans in Bosnia, where they created a murals using the only materials available -- a 10 gallon can of white wall pain and bedsheets riddled with bullet holes. The Art Miles Mural Project is currently homed at the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center in Oceanside, California, where there are electronic displays of over 5,000 murals, art classes, music, and spoken word performances. Tawfilis has had a storied career and has worked with the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP), the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Women of Srebrenica Project, and UNESCO. In her interview, Tawfillis discusses her career working as a civilian employee of the military, as well as her work with the United Nations, IAEA, and the Women of Srebrenica Project. Tawfilis also discusses the creation of the Art Miles Mural Project, the Muramid Arts and Cultural Center, and her thoughts on art as a vehicle for healing, empathy, and peace. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Joanne Tawfilis Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Linda Kallas Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-31 Subject The topic of the resource Art Miles Project Bosnian Women's Initiative International Atomic Energy Agency Military base closures Mural painting and decoration Muramid Art and Cultural Center (Oceanside, Calif.) Orphanages--Bosnia and Herzegovina Srebrenica Massacre, Srebrenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1995 Unesco United States. Army United States. Navy Women artists Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceanside (Calif.) Srebrenica (Bosnia and Herzegovina) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Joanne Tawfilis License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TawfilisJoanne_KallasLinda_2022-10-31_transcription Activists and activism Art and artists Community history North County Oral History Initiative Politics and governance Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Albert F. Toro OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Veteran United States Army;Vietnam;Chilean American Veterans;Sergeant OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Toro, Albert F. Interview November 15th, 2024 SC027-073 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran United States Army ; Vietnam ; Chilean American Veterans ; Sergeant Albert F. Toro Jason Beyer Moving Image ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/149798808a6a331fca4bb254ae05fe7e.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 62 Military Background and Upbringing Albert F. Toro served in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War and attained his highest rank of E5 Sergeant. He was born in Santiago, Chile in 1942. U.S. Army ; E5 Sergeant ; Vietnam War ; Santiago (Chile) ; junior college ; draft ; conscription 0 113 Military Conscription Toro was working and attending junior college when he received notice to register for military service. He was presented with the choice to either serve or leave the country. Toro wanted to finish college and build a life for himself in the United States, so he was drafted into the U.S. Army. Around 1967, he was inducted into the Armed Services without the opportunity to defer. U.S. Army ; draft ; conscription ; Vietnam War ; Armed Forces ; college ; deferment ; register ; induction ; physical ; Federal Bureau of Investigation ; U.S. Air Force ; high school 0 340 Military Training and Promotions Toro trained as infantry at Fort Ord. Frequent rain and long walks made training physically challenging. He received on-the-job training as a supplier while in advanced individual training. He recalls how his battalion commander, Captain Cunning, was a kind man who mentored him. Toro became an armorer and was awarded for his outstanding service. infantry ; rain ; meningitis ; battalion ; barracks ; base camp ; training ; post exchange ; platoon ; advanced individual training ; basic training ; on-the-job training ; supplier ; Captain Cunning ; commander ; officer ; armorer ; M14 rifle ; M16 rifle ; Military Operational Standard ; corporal ; sergeant ; Private First Class ; Fort Ord (Calif.) ; Highway 1 (Calif.) ; Monterey Peninsula (Calif.) 0 642 Adapting to the Military Lifestyle Toro describes how difficult it was to sacrifice his independence as he adapted to the military lifestyle. Additionally, it was difficult to become independent again after years of depending on others in the service. military lifestyle ; draft ; Vietnam ; civilian ; Armed Forces ; U.S. Army 0 752 Interactions with People During Stateside Service After his on-the-job-training, Toro became permanent cadre and stayed in Fort Ord for another year, working for the training unit that he was assigned to. Toro describes the camaraderie among cadre at Fort Ord as some of his favorite experiences during stateside military service. on-the-job training ; cadre ; camaraderie ; sergeant ; lieutenant ; Vietnam ; Fort Ord (Calif.) 0 828 Deployment to Vietnam In January of 1968, Toro was deployed to Tan Son Nhut, located near Saigon, Vietnam. He remembers the gigantic base camp, its large barracks, and the mosquito nets that surrounded the buildings. Toro recalls being attacked on his first night in Vietnam, hiding in a concrete bunker. Tan Son Nhut (Vietnam) ; Saigon (Vietnam) ; Expiration Term of Service ; Vietnam ; Vietnam ; base camp ; Armed Forces ; Bearcat ; mosquitoes ; culvert 0 967 Interactions with Local Cultures and People in Vietnam The only frequent interactions Toro had with local Vietnamese people were the kitchen police who served food for American armed forces. After his time at Tan Son Nhut, Toro served for six months at Củ Chi Base Camp as part of the supply unit providing food, weapons, and equipment to the field. kitchen police ; Vietnam ; Củ Chi (Vietnam) ; Saigon (Vietnam) ; 25th Infantry Division ; Viet Cong ; artillery supply ; supplier ; artillery unit ; supply unit ; battery ; service ; sorties ; base camp ; battalion 0 1105 Sleeping Arrangements in Vietnam Toro describes sleeping arrangements in Vietnam and his experience repairing a flooded hooch during a storm. sleeping arrangements ; Củ Chi (Vietnam) ; storm ; hooch ; post exchange 0 1161 Experiences with Wild Animals in Vietnam Fumigation, traps, and mosquito nets helped prevent any negative experiences Toro had with wild animals. However, heavy rain would cause problems for housing. wild animals ; viper ; fumigation ; rats ; mosquito nets ; tents ; rain ; Vietnam 0 1252 Supplying Artillery Units in Vietnam As a Supply NCO, Toro supplied artillery units in combat zones with ammunition and food. combat ; combat service ; combat service support ; supply ; artillery ; ammunition ; food ; battalion ; clerics ; ammo dump ; Howitzers ; sorties ; convoys ; Củ Chi (Vietnam) ; Supply NCO ; Non-Commissioned Officer 0 1347 Recreation in Vietnam Although Toro says there were “no weekends” in Vietnam, he does describe moments of respite, including barbecues and film nights. recreation ; Vietnam ; war ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; barbecue ; cooking ; conexes ; projector ; movies ; The Green Berets ; John Wayne 0 1431 Stories of Camaraderie and Supplying Artillery in Vietnam Toro was mentored by Sergeant Johnson, who took him under his wing as a clerk. While in Cần Thơ as part of his ammunition supply work, he would make trips to get ammunition from the South Vietnamese army. Toro recalls humorous interactions with the South Vietnamese army, specifically what he had to do in order to receive the ammunition. Toro was grateful to supply ammunition because it kept him from being sent to the field. However, he does recall the fear of landmines and seeing exploded civilian buses. Sergeant ; Chile ; Armed Forces ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; ammunition ; clerk ; Vietnamese ; English ; Howitzers ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; South Vietnam ; Mekong Delta (Vietnam) ; Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) ; ammo dump ; office ; officer ; Deuce-and-a-Half (M35 2½-ton cargo truck) ; sorties ; convoys ; artillery unit ; helicopter ; roads ; landmines ; rice paddies ; buffalo ; civilians ; buses ; farmers ; Charlie Battery ; rubber plantation ; French ; base camp 0 1734 Communication with Family Since Toro made the decision to stay in the U.S. and join the military instead of returning to Chile, his family was upset. The long period of separation was especially hard on his parents. family ; friends ; communication ; parents ; Chile ; South America 0 1762 Treating Others with Respect as a Sergeant As a Sergeant, Toro wanted to treat the guard duty he was in charge of with respect. When guards were in foxholes, Toro would bring them food, help them stay awake, and try to keep them comfortable. Sergeant ; guard duty ; respect ; friend ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; platoon ; foxhole ; shelter ; airfield ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; trust 0 1838 Unusual Event Experienced in Vietnam Toro tells a story about guarding an airfield in Cần Thơ. A soldier reported from a 30-foot tall tower that he was afraid, and Toro went to support him. Rain was flooding the area. Toro almost got washed off into barbed wire and nearly lost his weapon. By the time he reached the top of the tower, Toro and the guard were fired upon by snipers. The guard panicked and jumped off the tower but did not break any bones. guard ; airfield ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; Cobra helicopters ; Bell AH-1 Cobra ; jungle ; towers ; rain ; Jeep ; barbed wire ; sniper fire ; M16 ; .45 caliber handgun ; sandbags 0 1982 Sleeping in the Deuce-and-a-Half in Vietnam According to Toro, U.S. armed forces slept in tents at base camp in Cần Thơ and hoped to eventually build hooches. Heavy rains and mosquitoes made sleeping in the tents difficult. So Toro spent three months sleeping in his M35 2½-ton cargo truck, commonly referred to as a Deuce-and-a-Half. Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; Mekong Delta (Vietnam) ; Deuce-and-a-Half (M35 2½-ton cargo truck) ; hooch ; mosquito nets ; mosquitoes ; sleeping arrangements 0 2097 End of Military Service Before ending his service, Toro had “two weeks off” on guard duty in Cần Thơ. He recalls spending most of the day in base camp, occasionally visiting an enlisted club that served food. He avoided leaving base camp or exposing himself too much because he wanted to make it back home alive. guard duty ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; U.S. Armed Forces ; enlisted club ; Saigon (Vietnam) ; base camp 0 2218 Returning to the U.S., Visiting Family in Chile, and Readjusting to Civilian Life Toro returned to the U.S. in the San Francisco bay area. He then spent months in Chile with his family before returning back to Los Angeles. Using the G.I. Bill, he was able to complete college and start his career in the aerospace industry in defense. San Francisco (Calif.) ; U.S. Air Force ; Expiration Term of Service ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; Chile ; United States ; G.I. ; college ; South America ; family ; aerospace industry ; defense industry 0 2402 Camaraderie During Service and Inability to Reconnect with Friends after Service While working at TRW in Torrance, California, he ran into a fellow Vietnam veteran. The moment was memorable because Toro had lost contact with most of his Vietnam comrades. Toro had hoped to reconnect with the fellow veteran, but the interaction was cold and brief. Despite this, he says the comradery in Vietnam was strong. Toro tells a story about he and his comrades building a makeshift bar using ammunition boxes, plywood, and plastic roofing. Vietnam ; Torrance (Calif.) ; refineries ; gas station ; TRW (Thompson Ramo Wooldridge Inc.) ; defense contracts ; mechanic ; motor pool ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; Tet Offensive ; camaraderie ; ammunition ; bar ; Howitzers ; plywood ; roofing ; C-rations ; artillery 0 2603 Vietnam Veterans’ Feelings of Ostracization After Service Toro describes the feelings of ostracization he experienced in the U.S. as a Vietnam veteran. He was especially upset that the “amazing people” he served alongside were often ridiculed. Toro tells a story about a group of long range patrols who had a monkey as a guard animal. Toro says he started to feel prouder of his military service once the attitude toward Vietnam veterans changed and they were better recognized for their service. Vietnam ; ostracization ; Travis Air Force Base ; San Francisco (Calif.) ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; U.S. Army ; veterans ; infantry ; baboon ; monkey ; dog ; long-range reconnaissance patrol ; search and destroy ; Viet Cong ; the 25th Infantry division ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; My Lai ; massacre ; recognition ; baby killer 0 2907 Life Lessons from Military Service Toro says friendship was a life lesson he learned in military service. He describes how some of the less fortunate people in his training unit at Fort Ord had chosen military service as an alternative to jail. These were often teenagers. friendship ; discipline ; Fort Ord ; Category IV ; Cat 4 ; teenager ; military service ; jail teenager 0 2960 Message for Future Generations Toro says that if he learned one thing, it is that you have to survive in war. You cannot count on anyone else. survive ; survival ; risk 0 3026 Association with the San Marcos Community Toro became associated with the San Marcos community through his neighbor, Jason Beyer, the oral history interviewer. San Marcos (Calif.) ; U.S. Armed Forces ; interview 0 3051 Comradery and Recreation during Military Service Although he struggles to remember the names of friends he made, Toro reminisces on the comradery he experienced during service, including recreational activities like gambling that he chose not to participate in. basic training ; friends ; interviewer ; Fort Ord ; Vietnam ; hooch ; gambling ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; beer ; comradery ; cooks 0 3138 What More People Should Know About Veterans Toro wants more people to know about what veterans went through. He speaks about their lack of freedom, and how many people were not cut out for military service but nonetheless served. freedom ; soldier ; pacifist ; danger ; bravery ; military service 0 3235 Learning How to Become Independent After Military Service Toro describes how difficult it was to adapt to civilian life as an independent person. Since he was in his mid-twenties when he entered the military, he says that younger enlistees and conscripts would have a more difficult time readjusting than he did. independence ; dependence ; meals ; conflict ; military draft ; young people ; U.S. Armed Forces ; Expiration Term of Service 0 Oral history Albert F. Toro is a Chilean American who served in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War, reaching his highest rank of E5 Sergeant. Toro described being drafted and deployed to Vietnam. As a Supply Noncommissioned Officer (NCO), Toro provided artillery units in combat zones with ammunition and food. Toro shared his life story as both an immigrant and veteran, including the ostracization and shame many veterans experienced upon their return from Vietnam. This oral history interview explores topics such as comradery, independence, military training, mentorship, college, recreation, fear, immigration, and veteran recognition. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.785 --> 00:00:58.000 My name is Jason Victor Beyer. I'm a graduate of California State University San Marcos. Today I will be interviewing Albert F Toro. Today's date is Friday, November 15th, 2024. We are located in the Kellogg Library at CSUSM, located at 333 South Twin Oaks Valley Road, San Marcos, California 92096. My relationship to the interviewee is that we are both military veterans. The names of the people attending this interview are the interviewer, Jason Beyer, interviewee Albert F Toro, camera operator Adel Bautista, Marilyn Huerta, and Kathy Toro. The purpose of this interview is to conduct an oral history. Please state your full name—first, middle, and last name. 00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:02.865 Albert ; and middle initial, F ; and last name, Toro. 00:01:02.865 --> 00:01:04.245 The branch of service you were in? 00:01:04.245 --> 00:01:06.314 US Army. 00:01:06.314 --> 00:01:08.405 What was your highest rank attained? 00:01:08.405 --> 00:01:10.325 E5 Sergeant. 00:01:10.325 --> 00:01:12.394 And the war or conflicts you served in? 00:01:12.394 --> 00:01:14.424 The Vietnam conflict. 00:01:14.424 --> 00:01:22.135 So, I'm gonna begin by starting with your biographical details. Where were you born? 00:01:22.135 --> 00:01:26.644 I was born in Santiago, Chile in 1942. 00:01:26.644 --> 00:01:28.325 What was life like in Chile? 00:01:28.325 --> 00:01:32.405 Beautiful. I had a nice upbringing. 00:01:32.405 --> 00:01:36.000 Does your family have any past affiliations with the military? 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:39.495 No. 00:01:39.495 --> 00:01:44.034 Did you hold any jobs before you entered the military service? 00:01:44.034 --> 00:01:53.814 I was going to college at junior college, and I was drafted outta junior college. 00:01:53.814 --> 00:01:58.385 So you were drafted—could you tell me how you were drafted into the US Army? 00:01:58.385 --> 00:04:14.000 Well, at the event to come to the United States, and some of the forms that you fill out there is a little strip about an inch by 12 inches wide. And it says, "Upon the age of 18, you must register to the military service of the United States." And, so I sort of—you know—with time, I guess—I was working, going to college—and I never did have the intention not to register—that's a completely—disregard that fact. So around 1967, about—I think about three years later—I was notified a friendly with the—it was a letter in my apartment from the FBI (Federal Bureau of Investigation)—(Toro laughs)—saying that you have to register within a week. A couple weeks later—I registered—but a couple weeks later, I was called in for a physical for the—that was about—in September, I think I received the notice. And in December of 1966, I got the—I was inducted. I had a physical and I was inducted in the Armed Forces. And even though going to junior college—I guess—I didn't have the opportunity to defer. I was taking so many units and I was working at the same time. So I—at that time, I think the minimum requirement was 14 units for college, and I have 12. And, so I said—they gave me a choice, either serve or leave the country. So, you know, my ambitions were, you know, to serve—and not only that, because I wanna finish school and fill—you know, fulfill my dream to, you know, become a productive person in this country and also to be able to finish my college. So I—two years, I said, it's gonna be not too bad. And that was the way I started in the Armed Forces. I mean—I guess—the way I was drafted. Do I have to elaborate on that? 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:19.204 Did you have a choice in the branch of service that you joined? 00:04:19.204 --> 00:04:57.105 I did originally. I want to tell you something, that I heard so much about the Air Force, and I like electronics so much that I say, well, that'd be a big good a chance to—what do you call it—probably if I get drafted sometime in the future. That was my thought. So I applied to the Air Force—I remember that—but I never got a called. And they tell you, finish your high (school), finish your college, and then we'll talk. But that was kinda—I guess the Army had to step forward on me, you know, just—I got drafted and my choice—the only choice they gave me was Army. 00:04:57.105 --> 00:05:01.644 How did it make you feel that you were drafted. 00:05:01.644 --> 00:05:40.985 Because of my age, I feel a little—and also my school—I said, this is gonna have to be postponed for, you know, two years. And I wasn't that young, you know, I was 25. So I said, I'll be 27. And then when I said, probably when I come back to to school I'm gonna have to probably take again all the subjects that I was taking in college. And that happened, 'cause when I came back, I had to retake almost everything. And I lost another two years. But, you know, I don't have no regrets with—you know, I guess. 00:05:40.985 --> 00:05:47.685 For your early days of service during bootcamp, what type of training did you receive? 00:05:47.685 --> 00:06:58.235 I was infantry. So we did a lot of big walks. We did a lot of firing. A lot of, uh—what do you call—and the—Fort Ord was kind of tough because we had a lot of rain. So almost all our training was in the rain. At that time, that year it was really—it really rained the whole year long. Plus we had a meningitis issue, so our battalions—what they call, they were—we were located up in the new barracks—Fort Ord—and that was in the east side of what you call the base camp. The old barracks were right down by the Highway 1, the bottom of Monterey Peninsula. We were up on top and we were all restricted for the full training. To go to the movies, we have to go only—we were allowed to go all together—or whatever activities, PX (post exchange) and all that. We were all allowed to get as a platoon, you know, as a group. So we weren't restricted until AIT, the advanced individual training. But it was, you know, it was a lot of work (laughs). 00:06:58.235 --> 00:07:08.000 What is your most vivid memory? Both best and worst parts of your time in training and in school? 00:07:08.000 --> 00:08:26.415 On the training, the best part is when I left basic training. Basic training was, you know, it was hard. I mean, I'm 25 years old and you have a lot of young people, but I did fairly well. I could run, I could do all the stuff. And there I have some issues—you know, physical issues—but, I overcame those. And—but the most rewarding thing that I ever got—(long pause, Toro starts crying)—was in—it was in basic AIT, I had a lucky time to end up with an advance of a—I was in the on-the-job training as a supplier, and I was supposed to be in there for, I think it was about six or eight weeks—and I run into a very kind man, which was our battalion commander. He was named Captain Cunning, and he was like a father to me. And he helped me a lot with my career too. And he acknowledged my—you know—that I was capable to do the job and rewarded me with that. 00:08:26.415 --> 00:08:28.975 So he was one of your instructors? 00:08:28.975 --> 00:09:29.625 He was actually the—he was my commander. He was actually the commander because we were in an AIT unit. I was in a basic—I was in a AIT unit infantry. So we were training troops, and he was in charge of that unit, which was a platoon. It was—we have four platoons in that—I forget the name of it—I think it was "C-1-2" or something like that—that was the AIT. So we trained infantry people. They were ready to, you know, ready to go to the—and fight. So we trained—that was the last echelon on the training and forward the AIT events, individual training. So you will be preparing yourself to go to whatever the commitment was. But he was very—for being an officer for, you know, infantry—it was really a—what do you call—sort of thrown off because—so he wasn't—he was a tough man, but he was also kind. 00:09:29.625 --> 00:09:35.195 Did you qualify with any equipment such as vehicles, aircraft, radios, or weapons? 00:09:35.195 --> 00:10:10.904 Well, I became a—in fact, I became an armorer, and I got awarded for being an outstanding armorer, taking care of the weapons on the company. There were 250—I think about 250, I guess, M14s (M14 rifle)—we trained with the M14 at that time. We didn't have the M16 (M16 rifle)—I guess it was not available in the 60s. And all need time to qualify. If you qualify an inventory, that is the only time that you could touch the M16. We qualified use of the M16. 00:10:10.904 --> 00:10:13.000 Did you receive any promotions? 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:42.553 Yeah. I was promoted to E4 Sergeant. I mean, actually it was—they promoted me to it because of the—it was the infantry and by MOS, which is my Military Operational Standard—was supplied, I could not be a corporal or a sergeant. So they make me a PFC-4 (Private First Class), but they gave me an acting jack. They gave me the two stripes of a corporal for that because of the training unit. 00:10:42.553 --> 00:10:49.105 What was the hardest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to? 00:10:49.105 --> 00:11:34.784 Well being spoiled, it was tough. You know, when you—because I was already 25, so I have my ways and you're pretty—you know, kind of independent. And I never thought that I was gonna be drafted. I was more like a civilian. So it was kind of hard. I feel a little like in confinement for me, for a while. I mean, especially when I was in Vietnam, because, you know, a long time for serving and—you know, it's difficult for a person like a civilian. They all of a sudden—they throw you in that—and I've always being pretty "I want to do my things my way." So it was tough. It was tough. But I followed, you know, the suit. I didn't fight it. 00:11:34.784 --> 00:11:42.514 What was the easiest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to. 00:11:42.514 --> 00:12:32.475 I just, become a civilian later on. But you get pretty much—you know, I think it is funny that even though being 25 and having my own things as a civilian, to end up for two years in the Armed Forces—and at the end, you depend a lot. That's another thing that I forgot to tell you, that sort of, you can—you start thinking still that someone is backing you up. Because when you're in the Army, you're following. You're not making your own decisions, really. You are more a follower. So, and then it gets difficult. Yeah, I'm a civilian now, and what am I gonna do? I'm not gonna get my four square meals a day, you know? So then you start thinking, and you have to get out of the mood. But yeah. 00:12:32.475 --> 00:12:40.034 What were your interactions like with people you encountered during your stateside service? 00:12:40.034 --> 00:13:48.835 Well, the best—I think it was the—I guess, life, you know, as I became a—like I mentioned, when I was in the OJT (on-the-job training)—after my OJT, which is six weeks, I became permanent cadre. So I stayed in Fort Ord for another year, working for the—in the training unit that I was assigned to do my on-the-job training. And that's what I found—there was a lot of—you know, I think the people—I guess since you are cadre, you are in a different position than if you are a trainee. So there was a lot of camaraderie in there in the—among the—what do you call the cadre—the sergeants, the lieutenants. And there was a lot of like—you know, we could kid around. Instead of—when you're a trainee—when you're in training, you know, the officers and all that, they want some respect. So that become a little more lax. It was fun. I think I enjoyed the—Fort Ord was fun. I mean, not too much as when I—I guess when I went to Vietnam, that was a little tougher. Yeah. 00:13:48.835 --> 00:13:52.274 What war conflicts were you a part of? 00:13:52.274 --> 00:16:07.794 Well, in January of 1968, I end up in Tan Son Nhut, that is at Saigon. That was my starting at Vietnam. I forgot the term they used. I think it's ETS (Expiration Term of Service)—I think is the end of the term of service. But this is when I got—we got in Vietnam after a long trip, we end up in Tan Son Nhut, which is in Saigon, and we end up in the processing base in there. I think it's called Bearcat—I think it was called. And that's where they process all the Armed Forces. Basically it was mostly—I saw Army people. And we arrived sort of late in the evening. I don't remember having shower. I think that they took us to the barracks. I never forget that. And it was a gigantic base camp with all the—you know, these big barracks that they were two tier buildings. Usually they were made outta wood, and they get—because of mosquitoes they were surrounded by mosquito net mesh. And usually these barracks have a long haul, and they got all the bunkers, you know, lined up. You got probably here, probably downstairs, there were like 50 people. And upstairs, there was a two story. And I end up right underneath in the bottom. I don't think we have supper that night. I don't have a recall of that. But I remember one thing really clear, that that night we got hit. Badly, we got hit. And I really panic. I didn't know what to do. And we hide. I mean, I remember that we had this bunker made out of concrete, like a culvert. And I got under this place in there, and that was my first experience in Vietnam—late at nighttime. And oh my God, I said, this is gonna be tough. 00:16:07.794 --> 00:16:14.105 What were your interactions like with the local cultures and the people you encountered while you were deployed in Vietnam? 00:16:14.105 --> 00:18:25.365 The only interaction we had usually was with the KP (kitchen police) people we had, and the girls and the young men, they had, were used for—you know, they help us, you know, with serving. And they were very nice people. They enjoyed—we used to teach them a lot. They were good people. And, since we were in—there were two bases—I ended up in Vietnam where I ended up in a base camp called Củ Chi, which north of Saigon is about 50 miles, and that was the 25th Infantry Division. So we—they have no access, we can't go nowhere. There's a town in the Củ Chi, and they say it was—the Viet Cong was right in there all the time, so there was no access to it. And I end up in a supply unit. So we used to supply food and ammunition to our—I end up in an artillery unit, which—but I end up in a battery called "the service." We used to service—food, weapons and whatever require in the field. And also we used to fix all the equipment for them. But I end up in the food—I end up in supply, supplying the troops for food so everything was flown off. From Củ Chi, there was no access to the outside world by—only flying. And I guess that was my experience there, supplying the troops. We used to fly all the sorties. I never flew out of Củ Chi, but we used to provide it to the helicopters and all that. Our artillery units were in the field. And our base camp was completely sealed from—what do you call—the outside world, although the town of Củ Chi was right next door. And I've seen in pictures now of pretty—it's kind of a large town today. But that was—I guess that was my—there was no out. I mean, I was in. So all my work was—for six months I spent in there just supplying, providing food for our battalion and flying sorties out to the field. 00:18:25.365 --> 00:18:30.243 How were your sleeping arrangements like? 00:18:30.243 --> 00:19:21.025 In Củ Chi we had hooches that were built of, you know, wood, tin roof. And I never forget that we had a storm one time—I'm going to tell you about that one, and that's interesting—because we got a storm, and the roof was thin, so it got blown off. So, and then of course, we got all wet in there. So at nighttime, at my cell was a couple more troopers. We end up up on the roof nailing the tin roof to prevent the water from going inside of the—(laughs)—inside of the hooch. And the place was pretty, you know, it was nice. It was, you know—we had a PX (post exchange)—we had not that many comforts but it was also—you know, like I said, we were restricted. 00:19:21.025 --> 00:19:24.545 Did you have any problems with wild animals or anything? 00:19:24.545 --> 00:20:17.025 We had a lot of—wild animals, yes. We had some snakes in there. I think that we found some of them is supposed to be—they call a viper. They were pretty deadly. But we never encounter. I didn't never encounter, because these people used to come around and I guess they used to fumigate and make sure that we were safe. They put all kinds of—they have the trap for the rats. We have rats. So in all the corners in there, we had—(laughs)—we had rat traps for what do you call—to prevent us, you know, to be in—I guess—bothered with these little creatures. But the tents were, you know, like I I mentioned, they were all floors with hardwood, and we were surrounded by mosquito nets around the air to protect us from—mosquito was a big issue in Vietnam. Yeah. 00:20:17.025 --> 00:20:20.105 Did the rats ever get inside your tents at all? 00:20:20.105 --> 00:20:52.795 No, we were lucky. And they were usually—the tents, they were—the buildings were about a foot off the ground, so we're (unintelligible) because when it rain in there we have a foot of water outside. And it will rain, and they will rain in there, and a foot of rain was nothing in a couple hours. And after that it will dry automatically. I guess that's what Vietnam is. I guess the water gets absorbed pretty quick. So you—after the rain, looks like it never ever rained. Yeah. 00:20:52.795 --> 00:21:01.865 Were you in combat, combat support, combat service support role, or did the war zone make that designation irrelevant? 00:21:01.865 --> 00:21:58.335 No, I was in the combat zone and we were supplying our artillery units—we have Alpha, Bravo and Charlie—and that was the thing: supply ammunition, ammo, plus food in the field. At that time, when I was in Củ Chi, I didn't fly any sorties. I was mostly involved in supplying the food—supplying the food for our existing unit, and plus, they're called the battalion. We have a battalion in there with all the sort of people that provided more support on the clerical side. So we had to supply for people—a hundred people—you know, supply all the food. And also the sorties were flown out by other—and ammo was also taken by what we used to call "the ammo-dumping people" to supply Howitzers in the field. So they used to go on convoys out of Củ Chi. 00:21:58.335 --> 00:22:01.005 Where else did you serve in Vietnam? 00:22:01.005 --> 00:22:27.674 I serve as a—I was a supply NCO (Non-Commissioned Officer) for ammo. So I used to order the ammunition for the field for the Howitzers. And also I did a lot of food supply. We used to supply the food, so we had to fly sorties for food and ammo to the field. 00:22:27.674 --> 00:22:33.005 What did you do for recreation or when you were off duty? 00:22:33.005 --> 00:23:51.035 There was not too much in there because when you're in Vietnam—I guess in the war—there are no weekends. So we did seven days a week. And usually we give us—on Sundays, usually the NCOs will go and cook for us. So we have a barbecue, and they will, you know, give us—and we were lucky because we were able to absorb some t-bone steaks in there, and some good hamburgers. So the NCOs and the commanders will cook for the troops. So that was a—it was usually, typically then about 5:00 PM, so we get the rest of the evening. And occasionally we had these conexes with that—so you probably remember that—you're interviewing me, and I know you're familiar with the—conexes are these metal containers. And inside we have a projector, so sometime we used to get movies. And we got one of The Green Berets movies. And I never forget that with John Wayne. And people were laughing so much about it, because you're in a war zone and you got a green beret. Do you remember that? Probably you remember that, about John Wayne in there. And that was the funniest thing in the world, I think that hit me. Yeah. 00:23:51.035 --> 00:23:57.724 What kinds of friendships and camaraderie did you form while serving and with whom, while you were in Vietnam? 00:23:57.724 --> 00:28:54.025 I had a—I think it was Sergeant—oh my God, I can't remember his name right now, with all this. There was a sergeant in there that sort of was my protege, and he was from Idaho, I think. And he—Sergeant Johnson was one of them. Sergeant Johnson—let me go back—he was a—it's a first sergeant. He was in charge. He was pretty keen on me because of—for being, I guess—I was born in Chile, so he was kind of keen on me that he couldn't understand why I was serving in the Armed Forces. He used to tell me, "Oh I can't believe this." And the other ones—I can't remember his name, and he was the one who actually helped me a lot. He was an E6. He was an ammunition—what do you call—NCO? And he took me under his arms, and I become his clerk. So I used to run the runs for him, I used to ride on—the phone was Vietnamese, but they have a little translation in English, which it says what came of ammo we were getting for our Howitzers. So he gave me the task to run to town. This is moving to when I was in Cần Thơ—this is South Vietnam by the Mekong Delta. And he assigned me—"You're gonna write all the forms for the ammo, and you're gonna go and wait." And there were Vietnamese—we had to get from the south—from the ARVNs (Army of the Republic of Vietnam)—we have to get the ammo, believe me or not. So the ammo dump was in the charge of the South Vietnamese Army. So they used to make me wait in there. I sat in there in the office, looking at the officer. He—the only thing I have to do, sign the paper. So he made me wait in there for an hour or so until he decided to sign the paper. And I got them, and I went over there and I start—we go, you know—we went over to the ammo dump to get out ammo. But that was—every time I went over there, every time I had this, it was kind of a—how do you call them? It was kind of a thing that he had for us, that we have to wait, even though he signed the document. But he made us wait. I waited for an hour. I was—I used to smoke, but I quit smoking. Good thing I did. So I waited. I waited in there for this officer to sign the paper and let me go. And then the funny thing about this is—and then we go to the ammo dump, and the ARVNs—which is a regular Vietnamese army—they don't like us at all. So, and then we go in there and this big Deuce-and-a-Half (M35 2½-ton cargo truck) to load up the ammo. And then they used to give us challenges. They used to sort of challenge us. I mean, to get in to some kind of a scheme. It was kinda weird. It was like a—it was sort of a—what you call it—it was a ritual that we have to go through. Every time we go for ammo, we have to go through that ritual. I mean, for these people, they used to tease us. I don't think they want to fight with us, but they were teasing us—doing some karate movements and all that. It was funny. You wouldn't believe it. And that sergeant told me—disregard this, you know, I forgot the name of—I can't remember what the name is. I hope it comes. But he was great. He helped me a lot too, because he's the one that kept me from going—really—I was almost end up in the field, but he said, "I need you in here." So he kept me in the base camp. But we had to—we had to fly sorties, but we also had to go on convoys many, many times to, you know, deliver the ammo. Because all our artillery units were in the field. Some of them were way out in, you know, helicopter flight, but some other ones—the roads were really tough because they have to clear the roads because they had landmines. So we waited for all the traffic. These guys were really smart. When I was in Cần Thơ, we had to cross the river, the Mekong Delta, and go to the field that was miles away. And the roads were really—there was nobody in the road, you see? There were all the—the roads were all—they were not paved—were all like granite compacted. And we're all riding on top of rice paddies in there. And you can see the buffaloes in there, and you can see people, you know, the farmers in there, in the road. But always there was a fear of landmines. So we went over in the road when everything was clear, we thought, and we saw a lot of things in there. We saw buses with civilians, and they're blown up. And we were lucky we never got hit. So we deliver—we have batteries, you know, like—this was Charlie Battery. It was—I can't remember the name of the city that we were located. It was another city. It was rice—it was a rubber plantation. Beautiful—beautiful rubber plantation. I remember, I'll never forget, it was like the French left it in there. It was really incredible. And the roads were amazing. I mean, the roads were not amazing. It's just that the scenery around us, because we were in a base camp all the time, to go out in the field and take a risk, It was something else. I mean, sort of like, I want to get outta here, I wanna see something else. But you saw a lot of, you know, a lot of bad things in the road too. Yeah. 00:28:54.025 --> 00:29:00.605 How did you stay in touch with family and friends? Did you choose to keep communication with them while deployed? 00:29:00.605 --> 00:29:22.345 Yeah. My parents were in Chile, South America—all of them. So they really suffered from this. They weren't too appreciative, I guess, that I made the choice to, you know, stay and serve. So that was really hard for my parents—where we come from a large family, seven kids. 00:29:22.345 --> 00:29:28.244 Was there something that you did for good luck while you were in Vietnam? 00:29:28.244 --> 00:30:38.424 I tried to be good with the—oh, yeah—I always like people, you know, even though I'm not an Army type to be rough and tough. So I'm always being—what do you call that—I thought about the other people. Like, you know, I was a Sergeant in charge of a guard, and I tried to treat my, you know, my people with a lot of respect. Not treating my, you know—I never wanted to feel like I was in command. I feel more like I want to be their friend. So I used to bring them—when we were in the—we have like a guard duty. I was—because I was an NCO—I was in charge of the whole platoon that was in front on the foxholes and also in the shelters in the front of—we were guarding a big airfield in Cần Thơ. And I always brought them, you know, food, make sure they weren't sleepy at night and all that. So trying to make things easy on them. And that was the most rewarding thing to me, that they feel comfortable with me. So, they feel trusted, you know? 00:30:38.424 --> 00:30:44.845 Do you recall any particularly unusual events while you were in Vietnam? 00:30:44.845 --> 00:33:02.615 Yep. I'll never forget this one here. When I was in—we were supposed to guard an airfield in Cần Thơ. This was the landing pad. And we had all the Cobra helicopters (Bell AH-1 Cobra), so we had to protect all that area. But we were right in the front of the airfield, which was facing the jungle. And we have towers in there, and we have satellites on top—scopes. So I have a kid up there that was calling me that was scared. So, and then I went over there and it was raining. And it was raining so high that I almost got washed off. I didn't want to take the Jeep around it. So I left the Jeep. I had a Jeep, and I have all my—what do you call—black light. I mean, have all my, the lights down, you know, the—what do you call them? I forgot the name of—you keep all your lights on it on the—there's a switch, it turns the lights off, and they go into a nocturnal—what do you call—thing. So in case you cannot be seen. So I left the jeep behind, and I got in the—I started walking on it—and I almost got washed off in the perimeter in there to the barbed wire. I got up in there, and then somehow we got—started getting some sniper fire from the outside. And I had a kid on this tower—30 feet tall tower—and he—this guy jumped down and he didn't break his leg. He panic. He jumped from this tower. Would you believe that? I was scared too, because I was washed off. I almost lost my M16 because I carrying a weapon—and I carry also since Sergeant guard usually carries a .45 (.45 caliber handgun). And I said, I was glad that I made it. I mean, I just got to the barbed wire, held on until the water run—and I got up and I went and take a look at this kid that—he jumped all the way from 30 feet up, and he didn't break his legs. And I said, "Well, stay here. We're gonna stay here." And that was about the most scary thing that I ever had, you know? And this kid had jump, he panicked because they shot at him. He was shot—up in the tower. Instead of staying there—there was sandbags, but he was scared and he couldn't handle it. 00:33:02.615 --> 00:33:06.994 Could you tell me about the story of you sleeping on a truck? 00:33:06.994 --> 00:34:57.824 Well, when we got to our new base camp—from Northern Vietnam we went down to south—we end up in Cần Thơ and, we end up this—Cần Thơ was—at the airfield only, there was not pretty well established yet. So what they did—from the Mekong Delta, they used to suck up all the sand from the Mekong Delta and make a plateau. That was a basic base for the base camp—for this new landing strip. So there was absolutely nothing in there. So we end up in tents and it was raining. And the tents, you can't even walk inside because it was mud in the floor, and we have cots. So I decided to sleep in the—I slept in the in the Deuce-and-a-Half—that was my supply truck. And I spent in there three months sleeping in the truck. And I enjoyed it, because all the other people were on the—you know—wet tents and the floor—because we were—there was no floor. And I was sleeping in the truck in the front for three months. I slept in the Deuce. And that was tough. It was hard because it has a canvas—padding is canvas and metal. There's a thing in the middle. And there, I never forget it, It was my friendly thing. It was a metal piece that was hitting me in the back every night (laughs)—there was a division in between the two seats. And after that we slept until I left we have tents. And the plan was to build hooches, as they call 'em. You know, there were like, buildings on top of, you know, about a foot or two off the ground. And they were with mosquito nets. And that was another issue that mosquitoes will eat you alive. I had all these issues with them (laughs). Yeah, it was tough. 00:34:57.824 --> 00:35:06.525 So, towards the end of your service, do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you when your service ended? 00:35:06.525 --> 00:36:08.000 I was in—I was a—still—they gave me—actually before my ending my service, they gave us two weeks off. But my two weeks off, I didn't have to do absolutely nothing. But I have to do one thing: guard duty. So I have to pull every day guard. That was a break. So I slipped—I could do whatever I wanna do during the daytime, but in the base camp, like in Cần Thơ, it was not too much to do. I mean, there was a little town in there. I didn't care too much about it to go to town. There was a—what is it called—the—my goodness, I forgot the name of the club for the Armed Forces, where they used to serve beer and hamburgers. And, they used to cook for us. And then that was in a little town. And that was the—oh my goodness, I can't remember—that was one of the services the Armed Forces provided for us. It was outside, like in a big town like Saigon, they will have like a—it's like a club— 00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:09.755 —Like an enlisted club? 00:36:09.755 --> 00:36:45.065 Yeah. But it's—yes. Only for the Armed Forces. And they'll have, you know, drinks, like—not alcoholic—like coke, you could have a hamburger, and they have like a day room that you can probably sit and read. And that was the city of Cần Thơ. And that was one of the places—but I stayed mostly in the base camp. And when I was getting short, I became a little more coward because I want to live. So I didn't wanna expose myself too much. 00:36:45.065 --> 00:36:45.844 Did you— 00:36:45.844 --> 00:36:58.585 —You know what I mean? I mean, it's not being a coward, it just self preservation. I say, if I survive this for so long, I want to be here. You know, I don't want to take a chance going to town and, you know, being a fool, you know? 00:36:58.585 --> 00:37:03.284 Did you return home or where did you go? 00:37:03.284 --> 00:37:41.275 When I—end the term of the service term, I end up in the San Francisco area. There was an Air Force base that we did the ETS, because that was the end of the term. And my plan was to go back to L.A.—Los Angeles—and, you know, finish my college—that was my first goal. And probably return home—I was born in Chile—to see my family that I didn't—I didn't see them for about six years. So that my first goal was to go there. 00:37:41.275 --> 00:37:46.684 What was it like for you when you stepped foot back in the United States in San Francisco? 00:37:46.684 --> 00:38:50.704 Oh, I was—well, people were kissing the ground, you know. They were, I saw it. The people, some GIs that went down on their feet. I saw them. All the ones that—there was a really bad attitude too. Most of the people didn't want to go back to their families, you know, I don't know why. That was really bad. I noticed that I—what are you gonna do? Because I met a lot of guys in there. They said, "Well, I don't want to go. I have some issue with my family." So some of them said, "What are you gonna do? I'm gonna stay in San Francisco—in here." And it was a really strange attitude. I can tell you. I mean, I said, "You're not close with them? You don't have no family?" "No, I don't get along with them," and so forth. So that was really sad to hear that. And some people—I don't know why—I guess the war makes you strange too. You know, people—I don't know—it was like a demise on everything. I know I want to see my family. That was the first thing. Because, you know, I was drafted outta college and I wanted—and I didn't see my parents for almost six years. They were in South America. They were in Chile. So I said that was my main goal: to go and see them. 00:38:50.704 --> 00:38:54.684 How were you received by your family and community upon returning? 00:38:54.684 --> 00:39:27.744 Oh my God—they wouldn't let me come back. Yeah, yeah. And I end up in summer in South America's. It's just beautiful, especially Chile—you know, we're a big family. So I end up—I didn't want to come back—but I said I got my things to do. So that was my—I spent about three months in Chile I think after—yeah, three, almost. And, but I want to come back. I wanna finish my school. My goal. That's my whole ideas—and do my thing in here, because I planned that since I was a kid. I always dream about to come here. 00:39:27.744 --> 00:39:32.804 How did you readjust to civilian life? Did you work or go back to school? 00:39:32.804 --> 00:40:02.184 I went back to school and then I start—I went back to school at the beginning. Yes, I did go back to the—I got my GI Bill and I started going to, you know, finish my junior college. That was my first goal—and—which I did. And then, I liked the aerospace industry in defense, so that's what I—that was my goal, too—to go back to work for them. Which I did. 00:40:02.184 --> 00:40:07.264 Did you continue any friendships after service? And if so, for how long? 00:40:07.264 --> 00:43:23.804 You know, I didn't. People were from other states—most of the people that was in Vietnam. I—in fact, it was really strange because I was in Torrance, California, and there was a—in Torrance, California, there's a lot of refineries, and there was a gas station that I used to go—I worked for a company called TRW (Thompson Ramo Wooldridge Inc.), which we did, you know, defense contracts, aerospace, and all that. So this day I stop in this gas station, and guess what? I run in to one of people that I was in Vietnam. He was a mechanic in our motor pool. I used to go over there, and I teased him all the time—he and the sergeant—this guy was a redhead guy, I don't remember his name. And I said, "Do you remember me?" And I see he looked at me and I said, you remember such and such. And I asked him a question: "What happened to Cần Thơ?" I asked him. "Oh, we got a run in here in Tet Offensive. We did well." Because I left before the Tet Offensive. But there was not a—what do you call—there was not a contact. I said—I wish the guy would say, "Hey, let's get together or something." It was like, "Hey, see you now. See you later." You know, that was the only thing. So there was a lot of camaraderie when I was there. You know, people—in fact, when I was in Vietnam, you know what I did outta ammunition boxes? I helped to build a bar. I built a bar myself with a sergeant that, I can't remember his name. He was my protege. Big guy. He was from the south, like I said, again—and I hope I remember his name, to keep him in record because he was—he helped me a lot. So, our ammunition boxes for the Howitzers, we filled them up with sand and we built a bar. We built a building. We put a building. And I was—my skills, since I was supply, I used to go out and get the plywood. They used to have a plywood where they put the sorties when they put the ammo in the helicopter. They have two holes on the side. They brought probably six by six planks—you probably remember those (points at interviewer)—and then I did the roof with that. And then we got some—I guess—some plastic roofing from dealing with—I used to trade C-rations for all these items that we are speaking of. And there was some guy that knew a carpenter out of town in Cần Thơ. He built the bar out of the plywood we got. So we built a beautiful bar out of that. And I never forget that one. And in the front, we have a muzzle of a Howitzer. That was our—the symbol of artillery right in there, I never forget. I got pictures. I think I got the pictures. I don't think that I have the pictures, because I lost—all those pictures that I took in that area in Cần Thơ I lost in the camera that I bought. I lost I don't know how many rolls of film I lost, but I had a great time helping. And I have free drinking on that bar until I left. Would you believe that? (Toro laughs.) 00:43:23.804 --> 00:43:27.585 Did you join any veteran organizations? 00:43:27.585 --> 00:46:51.704 No, I didn't. It kind of—you know, I think most of the people who came from Vietnam were kind of ostracized. You remember that? We kinda insulted. 'Cause I get insulted and you—like I mentioned over at—when I left Travis (Travis Air Force Base) up in San Francisco, some guy say something about, Are you the, you know, baby killers or something like that. Twice. I have that—another one in L.A. So sort of lost the—how would you say—the interest, you know? And I didn't want to know anybody. I never mentioned that I was in the Army until they recognized us. You know, people being more onto our side. I felt—I never spoke of it. You know, never even at work—people never. I never talked to my kids about anything. My wife (shakes his head), you know—I think most of the Vietnam veterans, we were sort of sour at the end. Because they got—I saw a lot of heroes. I saw amazing people. You won't believe it. I mean, like, you guys (points at interviewer), like my interviewer in here. You know that—you know—people—amazing. Amazing soldiers and especially infantry. Yeah. I can tell you some issues in there. You wouldn't believe it. There was an infantry unit in—I never forget this one. We were—I was in the—taking a—coming out of the shower, and we had this group of soldiers that came over. They were all infantry. And they have a baboon. This guy had a baboon—they have a monkey. And that monkey was a dog. And these guys were in the field, and these guys were so raggedy—you wouldn't believe it. These guy were like long range patrols. They were like—they called them LRRPs (long-range reconnaissance patrol). I don't know if you heard about them. It's a unit—I guess—and they go at nighttime. They go out of the base camps and they start doing search and destroy. So they see—because usually our base camp was surrounded by—you know, the Viet Cong was out there. And these guys had the monkey—this monkey, this baboon, it was like a dog. He held sense. Anybody moving—there was not—in fact, I remember approaching this monkey, and the NCO told me, Don't get close, he'll get you. It was a great baboon. It's a monkey. And that was a dog—guard dog for these people. It was amazing. And these people were attached. They were not attached to our—the 25th Infantry division that I belonged to—they were not. They were like a bastard battalion. And so they were doing all this reconnaissance, and they were amazing, these people. I can—you know—there were some—there were some good soldiers. And we came back for the really—most of them came back with a really bad attitude, because we were treated like, you remember—I don't know if you guys know—probably we treated a little like we didn't—we were not wanted. Yeah. But they recognized us—luckily—later on, they recognized us—you know, Vietnam veterans. But most of them, they really—we were really sour, all of the ones that I knew. So I hide my identity. Yeah, I was in the army, but I never mentioned that. What do you call that? I was—that I served in Vietnam and so forth. And people didn't care really. You know, the new generation. My kids never ask me until later on about what that—what you did, what you went through. 00:46:51.704 --> 00:46:58.284 How has your service impacted your life, your community, your faith, and your family? 00:46:58.284 --> 00:48:27.875 I makes—I think of, you know—at the beginning after coming out, you know, you don't have a sense of pride. You became—you have a sense of pride after people recognize you. That's the only problem. You feel more guilty—you know—at the beginning when you get out because, you know, we not recognized. So there was an effort, you know, for them to say, "Hey, you know, thanks for your service." I started getting the thanks for your service later on in life, you know—way back. And mostly the people that approached me were veterans. You know, that they told us that. People—you know, the American soldiers are amazing. I tell you that—what I saw in Vietnam. To survive all that junk we went through and then not be recognized—and then left the country like that. That's the thing. It hurts the most, you know, being like treated the way they treated the people. They—you know—people like the soldiers—the American soldiers, I mean—the kids were great, but the attitude—the outside attitude was really bad. It was really bad toward us. And that's what it really hurt—a lot of people. I mean, we were doing what the country ask you for, you know, but they—you go and serve and do the best you can, and then you come all out like we were—actually, you remember My Lai (The My Lai massacre) and all that—like we were criminals. 00:48:27.875 --> 00:48:33.405 What are some life lessons you've learned from military service? 00:48:33.405 --> 00:49:20.554 I guess the friendship. There's a lot of friendship, you know, in there. Sometimes you don't feel like all by yourself. You know, that. And also it used a little discipline, because there was a lot of kids when I was in the army—I was in Fort Ord—that they were in trouble with the law somehow. And they were near serving because of that. You know, in my training unit in Fort Ord, they were a lot of kids that were—what they call them—Cat 4?. They have a name—I think category four. So these guys were—somehow they have some trouble with the law. So they have a choice either to serve or to end up in jail. And they were young kids. They were not adults—you know, in the eighteens. Yeah. 00:49:20.554 --> 00:49:29.005 What message would you like to leave for future generations who will view and hear this interview? 00:49:29.005 --> 00:50:04.465 Oh, the experience teach you—I learned one thing that—to survive, that's the thing. You have to survive. And you know, when you are in the war and you're—and you have to serve—you have to survive. And there's not too much you can do. And what you can do for yourself is be yourself. Because nobody else—when you're in a situation—as my interviewer knows too—at this point I'm gonna use that as—you are the only one in there. You. And you can't count on anybody else. 00:50:04.465 --> 00:50:05.000 How did—(Toro and Beyer accidentally speak simultaneously.) 00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:05.989 —Excuse me— 00:50:05.989 --> 00:50:06.000 Sorry. 00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:26.704 You can't count on anybody else, but you know that you're supported. But that is your life at stake in there. I mean, you're the only one that can—you know, you don't know what is gonna happen in that moment. I mean, you look for the risk, but the only things you think at that time are you, you know? How you gonna react to this? That's what I'm trying to say. 00:50:26.704 --> 00:50:33.125 How did you become associated with the San Marcos community? 00:50:33.125 --> 00:50:51.295 Well, was through my neighbor, Jason. He brought me to this in here, because I never thought I was gonna be interviewed. He's a former also gallant Armed Forces. He served many conflicts. 00:50:51.295 --> 00:51:05.074 Thank you for taking the time to share your recollections of military service. Is there anything you've always wanted to share about your service or veteran experience that you never have? 00:51:05.074 --> 00:52:18.074 Well, like I said, I wish if I could remember the names, but there's a lot of—you know, I think I had a—at the beginning, you know, in basic training, I made a lot of good friends. You know, and then they departed all their ways. I don't remember their names, but I have some pictures that you have—some other records in there. I think my interviewer has a picture of it. He was a—great people. I met some fine people. And when I was in Fort Ord, I did—and when I was also overseas and in Vietnam, I did meet a lot of people who had a lot of fun—especially on night times in our hooch—(laughs)—when they have the beer parties in there, and we used to—what do you call the, you know—I was very conservative. I don't gamble. And so I used to send all my money to my bank in L.A.—(laughs)—all the little that I earned. But the other—my older friends that used to love—they used do to a lot of gambling in there. My God, it was amazing. They have a lot of fun in between the beers and the—we had a lot of great time in the Hooch. That was the best time in the—the comradery. Yeah. In Vietnam. Yeah, there was a lot of that. And the biggest gamblers were the cooks—(laughs)—that's what I remember. 00:52:18.074 --> 00:52:23.684 What do you wish more people knew about veterans? 00:52:23.684 --> 00:52:29.295 What they going through. Yeah. What they going through. 00:52:29.295 --> 00:52:31.005 Could you elaborate on that? 00:52:31.005 --> 00:53:55.985 I mean, the do's and don'ts. The way you lose your freedom. You're not anymore in charge you of your future. I mean, someone else got your hands on. So that was my only thing—you know—you gotta serve and you're not an instrument, but you are a tool—you know, to help, I guess, the conflict. But they—you don't have too much to say. Some people are—they're born to be a soldier and—you know—and they're strong. And some people, they're a little in between. They're more—I guess, a pacifier—pacifist. And those are the ones that have a hard time. But they all serve. And that is a—that is a difficult time. I mean, for the people that don't have the—even though if you're brave, you have your feelings. I mean, you know, when danger is—your life at a stake—you know, the bravery, it counts—but you know that, Hey, I gotta survive this one. And some people are a little weak, and those are the ones that suffer. And they have to be protected because they're not meant to serve, but they served. And I see a lot of people like that. They served and they were—they—I mean—they were not happy they were doing—but they served. 00:53:55.985 --> 00:54:05.445 In your unveiling of the journey, what are the lessons learned from your military experience? 00:54:05.445 --> 00:55:20.735 Well, they teach you—I think they make you more independent too—I think. But being independent is very difficult. You know, after my two years, I didn't know what to do because I've been always, you know, four square meals a day. So I have a little conflict in there. So you gotta get out of that one and say, What am I gonna do now that I'm outside. But I already was outside, you know? I was drafted when I was already working and I had my own—so I have my goals. So I think for younger people it's more difficult. They were 18 and they—they have some conflict—that's why they end up in the armed forces—and they'll be very difficult to readjust. And those are the ones that I saw. And when I left the Armed Services and I was up in my ETS—end of the term of my service—they didn't know what to do with themselves. Yeah. That was one of the things that I was really sad. And I was more mature, I guess—my age. I was 25 when I left. I was 24 when I got drafted—26 I got—actually, I'm sorry I'm changing. It was almost 27 when I end my—my ETS was 27. So I was a little more mature, so I see the weight—but those people, they have a very difficult time to adjust. I know that. 00:55:20.735 --> 00:55:22.445 Thank you for your time today. 00:55:22.445 --> 00:55:23.945 Okay, thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the &#13 ; creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.xml ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Toro, Albert F. Interview November 15th, 2024 Description An account of the resource Albert F. Toro is a Chilean American who served in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War, reaching his highest rank of E5 Sergeant. Toro described being drafted and deployed to Vietnam. As a Supply Noncommissioned Officer (NCO), Toro provided artillery units in combat zones with ammunition and food. Toro shared his life story as both an immigrant and veteran, including the ostracization and shame many veterans experienced upon their return from Vietnam. This oral history interview explores topics such as comradery, independence, military training, mentorship, college, recreation, fear, immigration, and veteran recognition. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-073 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-15 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Albert F. Toro Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Marilyn Huerta Adel Bautista Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army—Veterans Vietnamese Conflict, 1961–1975 Veterans—United States—Chile United States. Army—Noncommissioned officers Fort Ord (Calif.) Travis Air Force Base (Calif.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vietnam Chile United States Santiago (Chile) Monterey Peninsula (Calif.) Tan Son Nhut (Vietnam) Saigon (Vietnam) Củ Chi (Vietnam) Cần Thơ (Vietnam) South Vietnam Mekong Delta (Vietnam) South America San Francisco (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Torrance (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Albert F. Toro License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Community history Latine experience San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5f846d16b07cebe79f32b0e45a368b9e.tif 2de5aca49a45a8348cb1dcebbdcc8698 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Basic Training Description An account of the resource Toro posing with Andy Andersen at basic training at Fort Ord, California Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 30, 1967 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/fbcf4960aa752901686449e33cff8717.tif 155c9148bb02fd3ecd0a197a0c648fe8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tent in Cu Chi Description An account of the resource Toro and Corporal Roe in a tent in Cu Chi, Vietnam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a588aabe1d226388f4983ea8249f9758.tif d93b145d903fe6830646784328e9fa32 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Service delivery Description An account of the resource A service delivery truck to the mess hall in Cu Chi, Vietnam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5894ee2e456478b2e7e86e9f2361196c.tif ca6ed40adfd5448fa6a719e2377265aa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ammunition dump Description An account of the resource Toro posing at an ammunition dump during monsoon season in Cu Chi, Vietnam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a30d54045801a0c1837a2742d3be288a.tif fdab3f6b39663a46820747cbda9d5575 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Deploying to Can Tho, Vietnam Description An account of the resource Toro leaving Cu Chi and deploying to Can Tho, Vietnam on a U.S. Navy Landing Ship, Tank (LST) in Newport, Saigon, Vietnam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b4543b8b9ac018a53964a556750b00fe.tif f084653b48ee3a24975630c358b6e1e6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Navy Landing Ship, Tank (LST) Description An account of the resource A U.S. Navy Landing Ship, Tank (LST) in Newport, Saigon, Vietnam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6b0e3bc3a4aece457f1d723baed53d26.tif 6cc59aead9a00cd648f1372d90658ed5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Deploying to Can Tho 2 Description An account of the resource Leaving Saigon and deploying to Can Tho on a U.S. Navy LST, Saigon, Vietnam Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource August, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2438aa7f1badf5931265ad8b288486da.tif 29af91310fe939af5b45556c25df127e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living quarters Description An account of the resource Living quarters tents in Can Tho, Vietnam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/cbf1f1370ae73210fbb657ce6c80c217.tif 86c759e0d0b39f2ae6eb962f844f0014 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Army Howitzer Description An account of the resource Toro posing with a U.S. Army Howitzer in Can Tho, Vietnam, Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource September, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1129569059db11422fc03bfa98cd9691.tif b32cfbcf58613dfe4fe5b7045bc2139c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource River patrol boat Description An account of the resource A U.S. Navy River Patrol boat on the Mekong River Delta Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August, 1968 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Description An account of the resource Ten photos related to the oral history of Albert F. Toro. Photograph #1 depicts Toro posing with Andy Andersen at basic training at Fort Ord, California, 1967. Photograph #2 depicts Toro and Corporal Roe in a tent in Cu Chi, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #3 depicts a service delivery truck to the mess hall in Cu Chi, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #4 depicts Toro posing at an ammunition dump during monsoon season in Cu Chi, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #5 depicts Toro leaving Cu Chi and deploying to Can Tho, Vietnam on a U.S. Navy Landing Ship, Tank (LST) in Newport, Saigon, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #6 depicts a U.S. Navy LST in Newport, Saigon, Vietnam, 1968 . Photograph #7 depicts leaving Saigon and deploying to Can Tho on a U.S. Navy LST, Saigon, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #8 depicts living quarters tents in Can Tho, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #9 depicts Toro posing with a U.S. Army Howitzer in Can Tho, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #10 depicts a U.S. Navy River Patrol boat on the Mekong River Delta, 1968. Click on the thumbnails to view the full images in more detail. Title A name given to the resource Toro, Albert F. Photographs, Various dates. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1967 - 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0d373a6360c40c8b8d7efbbccfac3a2d.pdf 1f8b1ac558b508d18aa51c9e6a69f7b1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Toro, Albert. Interview Transcript, November 15, 2024 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Albert F. Toro Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Adel Bautista Marilyn Huerta Justin Gans Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Albert F. Toro Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_transcript License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Description An account of the resource Albert F. Toro is a Chilean American who served in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War, reaching his highest rank of E5 Sergeant. Toro described being drafted and deployed to Vietnam. As a Supply Noncommissioned Officer (NCO), Toro provided artillery units in combat zones with ammunition and food. Toro shared his life story as both an immigrant and veteran, including the ostracization and shame many veterans experienced upon their return from Vietnam. This oral history interview explores topice such as comradery, independence, military training, mentorship, college, recreation, fear, immigration, and veteran recognition. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vietnam Chile United States Santiago (Chile) Monterey Peninsula (Calif.) Tan Son Nhut (Vietnam) Saigon (Vietnam) Củ Chi (Vietnam) Cần Thơ (Vietnam) South Vietnam Mekong Delta (Vietnam) South America San Francisco (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Torrance (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army—Veterans Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 Veterans—United States—Chile United States. Army—Noncommissioned officers Fort Ord (Calif.) Travis Air Force Base (Calif.) Community history Latine experience San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Ho Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hac Tran OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Chicago OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Tran, Hac. Interview April 25, 2023. SC027-107 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the CSUSM Faculty Center's Professional Development Grant. csusm Chicago Vietnam immigration community Vietnamese American identity Hac Tran Jennifer Ho moving image TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5b8ef81b80a4c8239d06fed2bf8486bf.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history of Hac Tran on April 25, 2023, by Jennifer Ho. 0 26 Childhood and Vietnamese community Hac talks about his childhood in Chicago and his early connection to the Vietnamese American community. He speaks of his parents’ involvement in the community and shares their backgrounds and migration stories. Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Argyle ; Uptown ; Chicago ; diaspora ; Tet ; Nam Dinh ; Hanoi ; Hai Duong ; Hai Phong ; French colonialism ; Da Lat ; Saigon ; Wake Island ; Trinity Christian College ; Palos Heights ; Milwaukee ; Chinatown ; Oak Park ; Mimosa Café 0 629 Restaurant life Hac talks about Mimosa Café, the restaurant his parents opened in the 1980s, and shares his memories there. He also talks about his recent visit to the restaurant, and reflects on his parents motivation to open the restaurant. Red hots ; Wheaton North High School ; Head Start ; Glendale Heights ; Vietnamese community ; restaurant kid ; Nam Dinh ; pho 0 1095 Family relationships Hac talks about his relationships with his immediate and extended family. Milwaukee ; Glendale Heights ; cousins ; California ; Texas 0 1291 Asia on Argyle, Vietnamese identity and media representation Hac reflects on his long relationship with the Argyle community, as well as his Vietnamese identity and how it has evolved through the years. He talks about the media and books that have impacted him personally. Lunar new year ; DePaul University ; Christopher House ; Uptown ; Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Chinese Mutual Aid Association ; Texas ; media representation ; racism ; Jet Li ; Trinh Cong Son ; Bob Dylan ; Joan Baez ; Khanh Ly ; nhac vang ; Bolero music ; nhac trinh ; Modern Talking ; New Wave ; Andrew X. Pham ; Catfish and Mandala 0 2060 Argyle shops and restaurants Hac talks about the businesses on Argyle. He mentions some of his favorite meals at local restaurants. Tai Nam ; Double Happiness ; Hong Kee ; Vietnamese Chinese ; Teochew ; Jennifer Pham ; Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Nha Hang Viet Nam ; Da Nang Kitchen ; Quang Nam ; Mi Quang ; Pho 777 ; Hanoi ; Café Hoang ; Hue 0 2324 Life plans, Vietnam and culture Hac talks about his community ambassador role in the Uptown neighborhood, and why he didn’t expect to be working here as an adult. He describes his time living and working in Vietnam and the plans he had at the time. He also talks about the idea of moving back to Vietnam, and how culture evolves. Argyle ; Budapest ; Hungary ; Texas ; non-governmental organization ; Save the Children ; Quang Nam ; Le Ly Hayslip ; gentrification ; culture 0 2652 Vietnamese American identity Hac reflects on what makes us Vietnamese or Vietnamese American. food ; Prague ; Little Saigon ; diaspora ; cultural events ; place-based lived experiences ; Double Happiness ; cultural corridors ; identity 0 2974 Similarities, differences and how we see ourselves Hac talks about the ways he is similar and different from other Vietnamese Americans, how he is seen by people in the community and how he sees himself. He also talks about his parents ideas of how to maintain Vietnamese identity. Viet kieu ; Southern California ; Orange County ; Sup Dawk ; boundaries ; expectations ; HAIBAYO ; Vietnamese language 0 3866 Vietnamese communities around the world Hac talks about interesting Vietnamese diasporic communities he has visited abroad. Little Saigon ; San Jose ; Budapest ; Czech Republic ; Prague ; Paris ; Chinatown ; Eastern Europe 0 4117 Partnership and passion Hac talks about his business partner and friend, Jenny Pham, and what keeps them motivated to do community heritage work. Jennifer Pham ; Da Lat ; Chinh tri Kinh doanh ; Nguyen Van Tam ; Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Chinese Mutual Aid Association ; Hue ; Lac Nhan ; Axis Labs ; HAIBAYO ; Tong wars ; Chinatown ; Hip Sing ; San Francisco ; New York ; ethnic Chinese ; Mini Thuong Xa Pharmacy ; CVS ; cultural legacy ; erasure ; Chicago Transit Authority ; Hoan Huynh 0 4812 Impact of time in Vietnam, and how we build connections Hac reflects on his time spent in Vietnam and how it affected him. He speaks of meeting family members for the first time, and of how it solidified his sense of personal identity as well as his career plans. He discusses how connections are built in Vietnam versus in the U.S. Agent Orange ; south Vietnamese ; collective bonds ; community 0 5393 Asian and Black community relations Hac reflects on the relationships between the Asian and Black communities. He talks about the email he sent to his family regarding this division, and how his parents passed down a love for humanity. racism ; colorism ; Black community ; Black Lives Matter 0 5728 Next steps and finite time Hac talks about what is next for him, and also about a recent health scare from his father that made him realize their time together is limited. community work ; Chicago ; inherent trauma ; reconciliation 0 Oral history Hac Tran is a Vietnamese American community organizer. In this interview he shares his parents' immigration stories, his childhood growing up in Chicago, and his work in the cultural district of Asia on Argyle in the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago. Hac also speaks about living and studying in Vietnam and how these experiences shaped him personally.&#13 ; NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000  00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:19.000 Okay. Today is April 25th, 2023. I’m Jenn Ho, and I’m here with Trần Qúy Hạc (Tran Quy Hac), interviewing him for the Children of Refugees Vietnamese American Oral History Project, and we are in Chicago, Illinois. Thanks for being with me today, Hac. How are you? 00:00:19.000 --> 00:00:26.000 Oh, yeah. I’m doing well. Thank you for this opportunity to, you know, speak and share my family’s history. 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:33.000 Yeah, my pleasure. Okay, so let’s start from the beginning of your life. Tell me when and where you were born. 00:00:33.000 --> 00:01:49.000 I was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1985 at Michael Reese Hospital which is in Bronzeville. Yeah. So, I was born in Chicago. My parents came here ten years prior. So, I was―I have an older sister, born in 1984. They’ve tried to have children before but, you know, a lot of miscarriages. So, my sister and I were kind of like miracle babies, I guess, after multiple miscarriages, for my mother. But, yeah, I was born and raised a little bit in Chicago. I’ve moved to the Chicagoland. Always been connected to―especially, you know, the Vietnamese American community here in Chicago, which was where we are now in Argyle Street which is now called Asia on Argyle. But, you know, growing up we always called it just Argyle or in Vietnamese you would say “Ahgai.” So, my parents were part of the Vietnamese Association of Illinois (VAI), in the early days. My mom worked there as a secretary years, years ago like in the late ‘70s and my dad was part of the board throughout the ‘90s. So, you know, I–we were always like engaged with the Vietnamese community within Chicago since my parents came here. 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:52.000 Okay. Thank you for that–that context. 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:53.000 Yeah. 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:56.000 So, you’ve really always been immersed in the Vietnamese American community? 00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:57.000 Yeah. 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:04.000 How did you feel about that as a child? Were you really into it? Or did you–did you embrace it or–or no? 00:02:04.000 --> 00:03:18.000 Yeah. I–from my memory, I would say like, yeah, I did embrace it in the sense that, you know, when you’re young, you have friends. So, there was like a lot of other kids our age. So, it’s like, you know, you–you build those friendships. It’s more about “Hey, I want to see my friend” and like be part of this, you know, this community of youth. It didn’t really click until later, you know, the idea of like being immersed within one’s diaspora and one’s culture. Because over the years growing up, you know, like you are part of it, but then you go to school. You kind of integrate into, you know, the larger American dominant society. So you do–I did like I felt like I did lose touch with my community and my culture for some period of time, like in my teen years up until college. But, yeah, as a kid, I was involved not only with the community but we were every like Tết (Tet) and like Lunar New Year like my mom and her friends organize the dance troupe of like all the youth. So, we were―every year we were like performing as kids, and like just in the youth programs and stuff with VAI and the larger Vietnamese community. So, but yeah, I think I embraced it because it was more so like connection between like other kids your age. 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:19.000 Yeah. Like it’s so— 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:20.000 That just happened to be, you know— 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:21.000 Yeah. 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:25.000 —we were all so embedded within Vietnamese culture and–and things like that. 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:41.000 Yeah. Would you say that your parents were involved because they–because they wanted to make sure that you held on to your sense of culture? Or was it really more for them or maybe a little bit of both? 00:03:41.000 --> 00:05:13.000 I think it’s both, because, you know, growing up I would hear it, you know, you can’t like mất gốc (mat goc, to lose your roots). You shouldn’t lose your roots. Like I would always consistently hear that from my parents, especially when they—you know, I would like prefer to speak English to them or something like that. And obviously also I believe it’s part of, you know—especially as refugees, right? They came in 1975. My dad always thought he was going to go back. Um, like oh, I—he didn’t—you never really know the future. So when he left the U.S., like for the U.S., or he left Việt Nam (Vietnam), rather — he didn’t really know where he was going — there was always like the desire of home, and returning home. So, I think for them like to have that shared kind of experience collectively with other people who have gotten through the same thing in building community, it’s, in part, I think for them, too, to, you know, maintain what this idea or this notion of home is. And obviously, you know, like when you have a family or–and–kids, you want to pass that culture down to your child. And I think for my parents, it’s—I mean, for many refugees, right? Like, within this–this time—it’s like, a lot of it’s like they’re forced to leave all they knew. So, like you’re in this strange new land and you see that with like throughout the generations with people. Like people like come and they always find their community. So, I think like for them it’s important and like to pass on to your children is–is probably the reason why. Yeah. 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:20.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you. I definitely want to talk more about you because this interview is about you. 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:21.000 Yeah. 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:24.000 But obviously we’re not who we are without our parents. So, let’s talk about them for a little bit. 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:25.000 Okay. 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:34.000 Do your–do your parents talk a lot about their–their children–uh, their childhood and, you know, their experiences growing up? And I’m talking about like pre-war before— 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:35.000 Yeah. 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:40.000 —all of that stuff, like who they were as–as people. Like are they open to sharing that stuff? 00:05:40.000 --> 00:10:29.000 Yeah. Surprisingly, I hear a lot of people, you know, peers my age, like they don’t know anything about their parent’s family because they don’t want to share it. Either it’s too traumatic or like it’s the past to be buried. But, yeah, like luckily for me I, you know, my–both my parents shared a lot of their history, like their childhood and up until leaving Vietnam. So, like both of my parents are originally from the north. My father is from Nam Định (Nam Dinh) which is a small province like, I believe, it’s like east, southeast maybe. I’m not exactly sure geographically. But it’s not far from Hà Nội (Hanoi). And then my mom’s side of the family—her father’s from Hải Dương (Hai Duong) which is near Hải Phòng (Hai Phong), around there. And my grandmother on my mom’s side is from Hanoi. So, they were--they grew up pre-1954, you know, when there was like still French colonialism. They lived in the north. Like my father was like—his family, I believe his father died young when he was young. Both my—my dad was kind of like an orphan. So, he moved around from different relatives’ houses and stuff. And then my mom’s side of the family—they were kind of like wealthy. So that’s why in 1954 my mom’s side of the family left. They were not Christian or Catholic or anything. So their circumstances for leaving the north for the south in 1954 were drastically different. My father just left with his younger brother, and, yeah. He went south and they lived in Sài Gòn (Saigon). Up until 1975, my father was part of the military a little bit but he went to Đà Lạt (Da Lat) to tea–or to study. He also had connections to the U.S. Embassy teaching English. So, that’s how he kind of got out in ’75. At that point, he was just him because his brother had passed during the war. And then my mom’s side of the family—my grandfather was a very wealthy banker in Saigon. So, she was like what–what you would say is like probably like the one percent of here. So they were–she was very privileged. So, they got out like April 30th through his connections. And then my parents met each other actually initially on Wake Island. So, my dad, I bel—yeah, my dad went to Guam first, and then went to Wake Island which is, I believe, it’s a Pacific island under U.S. military--I think it’s a military base or something. But in the refugee camp there my father was teaching English to other refugees and my mother was his like assistant. So, they had connected there. And then, through sponsorships my father was sponsored through Trinity Christian College in Palos Heights on the southwest side. It’s a suburb southwest of the city. And then my mother’s side was sponsored by a Lutheran church to Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So, my dad--you know, they lost touch after leaving Wake Island. But they reconnected actually here on Argyle Street, in probably like ’76-’77 or something like that, I’m not sure the exact year. But the story goes that back then it was not like you see now where there’s, you know, there’s a lot of commerce and businesses. Like where Vietnamese people met was like peoples’ houses. So, there was my dad’s friend. He lived like right at–right over here at Sheridan and Argyle, right across the street from where we’re from, actually. Um, and that year my mother—it was like the winter storm of, I believe, seventy-something and her and her friends from Milwaukee were going to go down to Chinatown. But it was like too much snow. And her friend had heard, “Hey, there’s like actually like someone who sells phở (pho, noodle soup) out of their house.” That’s closer. You know, if you want to go to Chicago, but it’s still like an Asian community. So, they decided to go there. They went there, ate pho, and there was also like mahjong, you know, in the houses. So, the story goes that, you know, my mom actually had to go—her and her friends left, actually, and she needed to go to the bathroom. So, she went back up. And then like the person leaving the bathroom, I believe, was like my dad. And then they met each other again. And through that he like just wrote down his phone number. And then, you know, a back and forth a lot like from my dad drove a lot to Milwaukee and, you know, eventually they got married and then my mom moved down here. Um, so that’s where kind of, I guess, my origin story starts in Chicago. And then like, yeah. Their–their story is, you know, my dad was an auditor for the state of Illinois. They worked with the VAI like I said previously. But like in the very early ‘80s, they decided to open a restaurant. But it wasn’t actually in this area. They opened it kind of on the west side of the city, pretty far west, like close to Oak Park. 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:31.000 What was it called? 00:10:31.000 --> 00:12:15.000 It was called Mimosa Cafe. At first it was like a Red Hots joint. Like my dad was selling burgers, hot dogs, things like that. And then he decided to add like simple items that were like fried rice, egg rolls onto the menu. And a lot of people really started buying that so he decided eventually to kind of pivot to just open like a Vietnamese restaurant. So it was called Mimosa Cafe. It was like, you know, those like hot dogs’ places are tiny. So, like there was like lines out the door. But then he moved the restaurant to Oak Park off of like Harlem, near the green line. But unfortunately there was like, you know—The economy was bad. He moved completely to another area, lost business. It survived like, five or six years after that, but eventually, you know, he had to shutter the business. And then we—that’s when we moved out to the suburbs. He got a job—a teaching job—at Wheaton North High School. And then, my mom eventually got into social work at Head Start. And then I grew up out in Glendale Heights which—surprisingly, there’s a lot of Vietnamese people out there. There’s a few churches. Not far from there is like a Vietnamese Buddhist temple. So, there’s actually like a large Vietnamese community. And so, I grew up–I grew up with like in–in grade school, high school, with like a lot of Vietnamese kids around me. So, not only was I connected here to Argyle and like VAI and like that youth program of Chicago, but where we lived, like, my kindergarten classroom was like three Tran students—me, Steven, and another Tran, you know. So, it was like, (chuckles) you know, we–I grew up surrounded by that, that culture. 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:21.000 Yeah. Okay. What years was Mimosa Café open? 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:25.000 (sighs) Whooo. I should–I should know this precisely. 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:26.000 You were–you were around though. You were— 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:28.000 Uh, they opened before I was born. 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:31.000 Oh, okay. 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:31.000 So, I believe it was like probably like ’80. 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:32.000 Okay. 00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:36.000 And then it was like a ten-year period, like from the–from 1980 to 1990, I would say. 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:38.000 Okay. 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:41.000 Yeah. So, they even had it like a restaurant before my sister was born— 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:46.000 Okay. So, do you have memories of–of being in–in the restaurant? 00:12:46.000 --> 00:13:44.000 Yeah, I do. Um, the–the second restaurant, though. The first one I wasn’t around for that. So, I think, yeah. So, I just remember the one like on Harlem Avenue, over in Oak Park, right at the cusp of the city, just like sitting in the back, like on the milk crates and eating egg rolls and like, you know, his workers like prepping all the food. And there was this one booth that I remember specifically. It was like kind of near to the kitchen entrance, and me and my sister would like, would be those little kids, you know, when you go into a restaurant, you see those little kids coloring and stuff. We were those kids in the back. And it was interesting because like a few years ago—the building still exists. Now, it’s like actually surpri–like funny. It’s like a Red Hots, a gyros hot dog place now. That person bought the building after, you know, my dad shuttered his business. So, we went—actually, my sister and I—went there and it was like–it was weird. Like that was the first time I’d been in there since, like, 1990, I guess. 00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:46.000 How did you feel? Tell me. 00:13:46.000 --> 00:14:49.000 I felt like–I don’t–somewhat emotional, you know. Like, you know, I was going with my sister and this was like kind of our humble beginnings as children, you know and like my parents’ journey of trying to succeed in this country. And I didn’t have, like, true vivid memories because I was so young. I don’t even know if I could put it into words but I felt like–I don’t–it felt–it felt strange. Like there was a kind of out-of-body experience, like whoa, like this is like the past and the present. And like I never really thought about this place, you know. But looking at old photos and stuff, there’s like birthdays every year. We always would have it there. And like all the Vietnamese community would come for our birthdays. So, it was like looking at that and like realizing how far we’ve come since that moment. Yeah, it made it—I would say, yeah. Um, I can’t think of the words right now. 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:50.000 Okay. 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:51.000 Yeah. 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:52.000 Sometimes there are no words. 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:53.000 Yeah. 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:59.000 So, um, did you and your sister go out there with the purpose of like visiting the (Tran coughs) shop and is that what you were–you set out to do that day? 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:29.000 I don’t think so. We were like thrifting. You know, like—and going to like–like shopping arou—like we stopped by Oak Park for something. I can’t remember what. But then we were like—I’m like “Hey, let’s just–do you want to go in and eat here?” So, we would–we ate but the food was not that great (chuckles). But–but it was more so like, you know, we wanted to like sit down in there and like see it. But, yeah, it wasn’t intentional. It just happened that we drove past it. Like, I’ve driven past it, like actually many times with never like I’m going to go in and see it. 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:30.000 Yeah. 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:31.000 Yeah. 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:36.000 Okay. Can I ask why–why did your parents decide to open a restaurant? 00:15:36.000 --> 00:17:28.000 I think it was more my father’s dream. Like he always wanted to probably be self-sufficient, and like, you know, have something of his own, to open a business. And he also like really enjoyed cooking. Like he was never like officially trained chef or anything. But like growing up in the north, um, he told me a story. Like, you know, pho actually is from Nam Dinh. The origin of pho, that dish is from his village or from that province. And like growing up, he was like - I guess he worked for like a family friend after his, you know, parents passed. Like his aunt sent him here. This guy who had a pho shop and like he learned that craft from Nam Dinh. So, he cooks, you know, like I think through that like he always like—and being alone, you know, throughout his like kind of formative years going to the south. Like he always had to cook for himself and stuff. So, I think like for him it was more—obviously, one, you want to open a business and try to be successful to probably build for your family. But there was also like this idea, I think, like he’s mentioned before where, you know, it’s–it’s like owning something of his own and like the passion for cooking. Yeah. And my mom is actually—I don’t think she ever really enjoyed the–the restaurant industry. But she like loves cooking. (siren sounds in background) So, it’s like growing up I just remember, you know, a lot of like gender roles within, you know, Vietnamese culture. It’s very patriarchal. But growing up, I would always see my dad in the kitchen with my mom, you know. And that’s like something you don’t really see in Vietnamese families. But he was like—you know, they were cooking together. So, I think like for me that - seeing that - was also like kind of was a segue into my enjoyment of food and–and like kind of food ethnography and food history and things like that. 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:29.000 Mm-hmm. That’s really cool. 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:30.000 Yeah. (clears his throat) 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:44.000 Something I’ve noticed as a theme in just talking to other Vietnamese people or to people of our generation is that parents always were very self-sufficient and very entrepreneurial. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:45.000 (sniffles) Yeah. 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:47.000 So, it sounds like that’s–that’s your dad. 00:17:47.000 --> 00:18:15.000 Yeah. Even though he like he didn’t succeed I think there’s that still that–that urge to try at least, you know. Like you–you can’t really tell the future of what’s successful or not. Like this block itself, there’s not really any small pop–mom–and shop restaurants from the early ‘90s that exist anymore, you know. So, people like, yeah, it’s that–that drive for–for entrepreneurship and to be self-sufficient, I think. 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:30.000 Yeah. Um, okay. So, let’s talk about you. Um, tell me about your family–your family and the people who raised you. I mean you’ve talked about mom and dad but were there any other family members around? 00:18:30.000 --> 00:20:34.000 Yeah. So, like (clears his throat) my father’s side of the family—he’s the only one actually that came to the U.S. So his entire family, all relatives like remained in–mostly in the north. So, I never really knew my dad’s family growing up at all until like later down the year, like years later I went to study abroad in Vietnam and like met them in the north. But like yeah. The people that raised me were, you know, like my mom, my dad, my grandmother. So, my–my mom’s dad died the year that I was born. So, I have two other cousins born like a month after me. Um, so we had—my mom is the oldest of eight. So, initially all of them lived in Milwaukee. But over the years, you know, growing up I remember like a big, close-knit family. Like I had eight aunts and uncles. There was eight of them, and then I had cousins. And those are like beyond my sister and I. Like we had like our cousins. Like those are all like our brothers and sisters. We grew up together. There’s three of them from Milwaukee. Two of them live here now. So, like—and that was like — growing up was—I just remember a lot of—it was a very busy household with a lot of different people always cooking. And like in the ‘90s my grandmother sponsored two of her younger brothers — so, my great uncles — over and they both lived in Glendale Heights near me. So, we would always be surrounded by aunts and uncles and my—I guess they would consider it like second cousins, my—but, you know, in Vietnamese it’s like just your uncle, your parent’s cousin or whatever. So, there was always people around. Um, and that like—I think like in–in many ways that— (coughs) I guess, what am I trying to say? I mean, yeah. It was like a loving environment, in the sense that there are a lot of different types of people, that grew up with you. Yeah. 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.000 That’s nice. Are you still close to these cousins? 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:59.000 Yeah. Um, so there is my sister and I. There is like seven of us in that–in our generation (clears throat) like between like now approaching forties I guess. I think some of them are forty already. But like we all like kind of grew up together and we’re still really close. Two of them live here. One lives in Cali and the other two live in Texas. 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:05.000 It sounds like—Are—I think I’ve met your sister one time a long time ago. You were—you guys are pretty close, aren’t you? 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:06.000 Yeah. (sniffles) 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.000 That’s nice. 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:31.000 Yeah. I’m mean that we are close but we, you know— I–I feel like (clears his throat) there’s also with any siblinghood there’s challenges and, you know, dealing with like inherited traumas and things like that that create conflicts. So, yeah. But we are like despite those things, you know, we are close. Yeah. 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:40.000 That’s great. You–so you’ve known–you’ve known this area, Argyle, your whole life. 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:43.000 I mean, there was years where I didn’t really (clears throat) come here. 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:44.000 Okay. 00:21:44.000 --> 00:23:41.000 It was probably like high school. Like after I got older I–I wasn’t really part of those dance troupes. Like we would always come here for like Lunar New Year. Um, but as like those like teen years, like I didn’t really—you know, I was hangin’ out with my friends, doing other things. So, I like kind of wasn’t part of the community those years. It wasn’t really until like I returned. So, yeah. During my childhood, I was like really embedded with the community but then the teen years I kind of did my own thing. But I went to DePaul University. So, I moved back to Chicago for college. And through that, like I think there was like—a lot of it during that time was like somewhat of an identity crisis. Like what is—who am—like, you know, who am I? Like am I more Vietnamese or am I like more American? Like kind of, you know, those struggles that a lot of other people in our generation kind of deal with. And beyond our diaspora as well. So, you know, I was questioning like—So, I took a–a bunch of like Asian American classes. I would always like come here. I actually worked from like my freshmen year, sophomore and junior year, I worked at Christopher House which is in Uptown, like with youth. So, we did like a lot of youth development work, one-on-one stuff, like reading skills like that. So, I was like right next—and that’s like right on Leland just south of here. So, I would always, through that, like, you know, Asian American classes, my work, and I started volunteering at like VAI and CMAA (Chinese Mutual Aid Association) in the youth program and as a ESL instructor. So, like through that like I like try to reconnect with this area. Um, but yeah. I think that didn’t really even like kind of answer my questions of what my identity is. So, I decided my junior year to like study abroad in Vietnam. Um, and then my cousin from Texas, one of the ones (something begins to beep)—Oh, can I turn this off? 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:42.000 Yeah, of course. 00:23:42.000 --> 00:24:33.000 Yeah, like the idea of like identity, right? Not really confident of who you are. So, I studied abroad and tried to like—Am I more Vietnamese than I realize? Like, I mean, throughout the years like–like, I’m, you know, Vietnamese American. It’s not like black and white. Like identities are so fluid and vast that it, you know, it’s hard to pinpoint in right or wrong, or this kind of dichotomy of identities, you know. So, I was like comfortable in my own skin of like who I am. And the–it–and not defining, you know. Like the Viet–the Vietnamese American experience is so diverse, right? There’s so many different like ways of thought and how we are. So, just being comfortable. Yeah, I’m a Vietnamese American and understanding and realizing like there are many different types of Vietnamese American people and lived experiences as well. 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:59.000 Mm-hmm. Okay. I’m really happy you brought that up because like half my questions are about identity and how we define ourselves. Um, I have to say I’m surprised that growing up amongst a bunch of Vietnamese Vietnamese people and Vietnamese Americans, that you–that you are questioning your identity. That surprises me. 00:24:59.000 --> 00:27:04.000 Yeah. I think like that’s the power of media and the power of—I mean, even though like I’m surrounded by the Vietnamese American community, it wasn’t like—and my family—you know, my family, I would say, I’m there every day. But, you know, especially like the challenge and cultural gaps that you have with your parents of that–that generation. There’s challenges and there’s like—you’re going to butt heads, you know. I didn’t understand these like really kind of more traditional conservative ways of, like, thought. And I’m like, that created conflict. So, even though, you know, you do have family around and community, there’s these—if you peel back the layers like there’s always like, you know, a lot of kind of conflict that exists, whatever that structure may be of conflict. So, I think like you know like saying that, you know you, despite having that–that connection and proximity to culture, in every day like when you go to school, it’s—I mean, there are Vietnamese kids but like there’s many more people. And also like we lived in a suburb that was adjacent to like, you know, a all-white, rich suburb. So, we went to school with kids like that and then you—as a kid you hear like, you know, racist things at that time. Like all that, you know, the kids that will say “ching chong” type of stuff, you know? And also the media just influencing your thought of like your identity, and self—rather like, self-worth, you know. So, there’s like–I feel like there’s a lot of different types of influencing factors of what makes up identity and what really crafted my understanding of like what I am, you know, and like challenging that throughout my youth or feeling like I don’t know what it is, I think. 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:26.000 Were—I have two questions. What role did your parents play in helping you figure this out? And by that, I mean like directly. Like, would you ask them a lot of questions? And would they be open to like answering them? Like, is this—were you able to talk to them about this kind of identity searching stuff? 00:27:26.000 --> 00:30:01.000 No. I didn’t. There was like really no question or no communication about that.Like I think like my relationship with my parents –like we were―I don’t know if it was like–it’s really close in the sense where I emotionally share my feelings and my challenges. Because I think like that’s the divide, right? Like just ‘cuz you’re in the same room with someone and next to them doesn’t mean you’re like interacting in a very deep meaningful way. Um, so growing up I never really engaged in that level ever with my parents. It was more like “Hey, you know, you’ve got to, like—” There is a lot of challenges and expectations of success and whatever that success might look like. But, no, I never–I never sought out like seeking my parent’s advice in terms of this. And I’m sure like as I get older now, you know I think about, like, maybe I should have, ‘cuz they themselves are going through probably a similar kind of identity crisis for their children. Because like if you’re in Vietnam and you stayed in Vietnam, you raised your kids this way. But now you’re faced with this completely different culture where your kids are no longer what you expected them to be. And that in a way leads to so many different challenges, you know. But like I think over the years my parents probably adapted themselves. And the expectation of, like, I’m never going to raise a Vietnamese kid like they exist in Vietnam, as a Vietnamese American kid, you know. So, yeah, but no, I never really sought that out. I don’t really actually—sought that out—like I kind of looked in and just found external ways to like understand either through books or media. Yeah, growing up I had Asian American friends like in high school that are still my best friends today. But we never–I don’t think we ever really talked about like the identity issue, right? Like are we Asian American? We just kind of lived it together through our common interests and maybe like our common struggles with–that drew us together. I don’t know. But um, yeah. I think it was more like just seeking ways to search for my identity externally either through reading or education or through experiential learning and like living abroad or something, you know. (sniffles) 00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:24.000 Okay. Thank you for that. You’ve mentioned media and external sources a few times. Were there any, like, you know fictional or real-life heroes that you kind of looked up to or felt a strong connection to? Or any like favorite books or musicians or anything that really like gave you a sense of strength and power? 00:30:24.000 --> 00:32:38.000 Yeah. I guess like real-life heroes, not really. It’s like, right, we talk about the representation of the Asian man in media. It’s like all kung-fu, even though like that’s the case, I did love Jet Li. Like his movies were bad ass, you know. So, me and my cousin would watch, you know, martial arts movies and like–like, yeah, hell yeah. Like this dude’s cool as hell, you know? But yeah, and then you see the larger dominant media and society depicting it. So, that influences like all your “I’m unworthy” type of thoughts, you know, that slowly start growing in your head. Um, music―I have like a weird history with music. Like–like I grew up just listening to like a lot of actually pre-war Vietnamese music and I still love it today. Like there’s–there’s a guy named Trịnh Công Sơn (Trinh Cong Son) who was considered the Bob Dylan of Vietnam. I think Joan Baez said that about him. And he always sang with Khánh Ly (Khanh Ly) and like that duo who was like pre-war. So, that type of music I think it’s called like nhạc vàng (nhac vang, yellow music, more commonly known as Bolero music.) (Note: Son and Ly are usually categorized as Nhạc Trịnh [Nhac Trinh]). My parents loved that so I would always listen to it. And I still love it today. But then like, yeah, my older cousins would listen to weird Euro-dance like, you know, Modern Talking. What did―it’s funny, because it’s like–there’s a documentary coming called “New Wave.” So, it was like a lot of that music that Vietnamese called New Wave but it’s like Euro-Pop, Euro-Trance, or whatever. So, I listened to a lot of that. So, even though it wasn’t Vietnamese, I think like a lot of Vietnamese people listened to that. And like even today, when you like―I hear Modern Talking like (sings) “You’re my heart. You’re my soul. Nah-nah-nah,” like on the block, it’s like all instant like “Yo!” Like that’s like, it sparks some type of, you know, realization or connection to someone else which is― yeah, I don’t know how–why my cousins listened to it, but they did. But I guess like maybe a lot of Vietnamese American in that generation did because now there’s a documentary being made about it, you know. 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.000 Yeah. I heard about that. It’s really cool. 00:32:40.000 --> 00:33:21.000 Yeah. Books, I think, more identity-wise, Catfish and Mandala (by Andrew X. Pham) was one of the first books that I really kind of―because it talked about–he biked through Vietnam, right? Like he talks about like–it was a page turner. It’s like a memoir and it really resonated with what I was going through at that time. It’s like wow! Like I want to seek—you know, that book didn’t tell you what to think. It was just sharing his experience and I wanted to―in many ways—live that experience too (siren sounds in background), to search and find what any resolution to what challenge of identity I had at the time. Yeah. So, yeah, that book I think. 00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:26.000 That was a really good book. I had it for years on my bookshelf before I had the courage to read it. 00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:33.000 Yeah. I should re-read it. I haven’t opened it since that one time I read it. 00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:43.000 The part that sticks out in my head is the part where he says that he was looking at some like muck on the ground or like trash or something and he just felt really ashamed of his country. 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:45.000 Oh, wow! 00:33:45.000 --> 00:34:20.000 And, I remember that sticking out to me because I was never proud of my identity at all. So, I’m still working on that honestly. This is your interview, not mine. (both laugh) Um, okay. I really–I really want to go to your study abroad experience. But first, I want to go back to–to this area in your childhood. So, tell me like were there any businesses or organizations on Argyle or–or Uptown–that stick out in your head and what were their names and why were they important to you? Um, and also any like memories that you can share with us. 00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:32.000 Yeah. Yeah. I―so, like I said, I don’t think there’s many businesses that still exist. There are a few, like the grocery stores are still here, like Việt Hoa (Viet Hoa) is still here. 00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:33.000 How long has― 00:34:33.000 --> 00:36:45.000 I think they’ve been here since like the early—like the ‘80s. Like mid ‘80s until now. So, it’s like forty–forty years plus. Tại Nam (Tai Nam) I think came a little later. Um, but Double Happiness and Hong Kee, so those are all like Chinese restaurants, you know? And those are the ones that kind of have been here the longest and that have sustained over the generations. But Double Happiness is―they’re also refugees from Vietnam, but they’re like Vietnamese Chinese, Teochew Chinese. So, I have like a lot of memories there like going as a kid. The menu it is the same menu from when we–I ate there as a kid. They just photocopied it, whited out the price over, you know, because of inflation. And like now it’s eleven dollars a bowl versus back then it was, like, four. But, it’s still the―it’s like a photocopy and I just remember going in there with my parents and, you know, their friends and their kids, just like having like an ice cold soy milk, eating the dried noodles and just like― And back then, from what I remember like, um, my business partner who is Jennifer Phạm (Jennifer Pham)–her–she grew up here too. And like when we talk about Argyle and our memories of Argyle in the past it’s like—it was so much―like the memory is that the area was so much more bustling. There was so―it was like crowded full of Vietnamese people whereas you see now it’s like almost desolate, you know? And that–that’s for many reasons, I think. But like, yeah. I mean like the memories of–of that was like in–in the VAI, Vietnamese Association of Illinois, used to be just north of Argyle on Broadway in this older building. They moved since then. But it was on the second floor, just like a lot of memories there. Um, like for the new year, giving speeches in Vietnamese to like the elders, just playing and running around the rooms, like with other kids. Yeah, it was just like―yeah, those are fond memories. Like you don’t have any worries, you know. And you just like had fun and like ate food. It was―yeah. I mean those memories stick out to me, I would say. 00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:52.000 What–what–what would you order to eat at these restaurants, like then and now? Like what are your favorite few things? Like if you had so―like a total― 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:53.000 That–at that restaurant? 00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:56.000 Yeah, or anywhere else? Like you and I went to Nhà Hàng (Việt Nam) (Nha Hang Vietnam) the other day. 00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.000 Oh, okay. Yeah. 00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.000 So, anywhere at anytime. 00:36:59.000 --> 00:38:44.000 Well, I still love that noodle place. Like I used to eat there like on a regular―and I get the same thing but it’s the same recipe too. So, basically, it’s just like dried egg noodles with like seafood, pork, garlic oil. You throw in your sauces how you want to dress it. And then there’s a bowl of soup on the side. So, that’s one of my favorite meals on Argyle. I love, currently, today, yeah like there’s–there’s like different, restaurants that specialize in different things, even though like, you know, if you walked into a restaurant, there’s like 95 things on the menu. But if you are, you know, if you live here you kind of know what’s good, what restaurant does what well. So like, yeah. Đà Nẵng Kitchen (Da Nang Kitchen), the husband is from Da Nang, like Quảng Nam (Quang Nam), which is center region. So, they do like a lot of like stuff that you don’t seen on other menus like Mì Quảng (Mi Quang), which is like kind of a turmeric rice noodle, seafood, kind of more condensed broth. That’s really good there. For triple s―if you want northern food, Pho 777, his wife is from Hanoi or that region, and she’s brought a lot of northern Vietnamese dishes that are spectacular that you often don’t see actually in restaurants in the U.S. because it’s more southern food. Um, Café Hòang (Cafe Hoang) has really great bún bò Huế (bun bo Hue). They’re from Huế (Hue), which is like that spicy, you know, beef noodle soup that’s really good. So, yeah, like there–there’s a lot of things. Like when I’m craving something, that’s―you know, I’ll know where to go. Um, and like, yeah. When we ate where we ate, Nha Hang Vietnam, they do a lot of like really good southern style food which is nice. Yeah. Then what el―yeah. (both chuckle) 00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:46.000 Are you here often? Are you in the area often? 00:38:46.000 --> 00:41:37.000 I am, yeah. Since I started this ambassador position―it’s a community ambassador job through the city and through the Chamber. Like I’m here like probably every work day. Like Monday through Friday for parts of the day. But, yeah. I’m always around Argyle. Which is nice, but you know like I never really thought―like literally after college, like I actually moved to Vietnam. So, I studied abroad in Vietnam the year after I studied in Budapest and Hungary. And then I came back, graduated, and then I’m like “Alright, I’m moving to Vietnam.” So, I moved with my two cousins from Texas and we lived there for like three-some years. And I never thought I was going to actually do any type of work in Chicago, let alone like this community. What I wanted to do was like international work, right? Like kind of relief work. I wanted to move back to Vietnam and do like more large-scale, non-governmental organization work. Because my uncle, one of my mom’s younger brothers, like he did a lot of relief work. And he also like moved to Vietnam and worked at Save the Children. He was the country director of Save the Children for a few years and we overlapped and actually he was able to get me an internship. So, I did like non-governmental work in Vietnam. I moved to Hội An (Hoi An), which is also in Quang Nam in central Vietnam and I worked for Lệ Lý Hayslip (Le Ly Hayslip). She is the author and there’s a movie that Oliver Stone did about her. It’s called like “What hea–Heaven and Earth” I think it’s called? So, she has an organization there and I worked for her for like a year. So, I’ve always thought like “Hey, I’m going to go back.” The only reason I came back to Chicago really was to go to grad school, to do like urban planning. But I did international planning, with the intention of like going back to Vietnam or living abroad. But it was like during that research and like during those years I worked in Uptown, and like a lot of my research pivoted to more local things and like more so like, um, research on Argyle. You know, like through the lens of urban planning it’s like cultural preservation of a community. You know, I saw that, you know, there’s a lot of gentrification happening. We’re right next to the lake. You know, property values are increased like―and I remember just coming back here and it’s just like this is–doesn’t feel like Argyle of my youth. You know, like I said earlier, like it just felt busy. People came here all the time. And it just didn’t feel that, and there was a lot of closures, a lot of, you know, different things. So, eventually, you know, like I got involved and did a lot of different things, post-graduation, for Argyle. And that’s what like really made me want to stay in this community. 00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:49.000 I saw a pattern, when you were talking just now, that you wanted to go back to Vietnam, and also your dad did, too, at some point. (Tran coughs) But neither it―I’m assuming your dad never went back to live. 00:41:49.000 --> 00:44:12.000 To live, no. But he did, when I lived there, he came to visit. Um, but he never―he even, yeah, growing up like even his later years, he always said like “I want return and live there.” But it never happened, you know. I still have a desire to like, you know, go back to Vietnam and like, maybe not live forever, because I don’t think there’s like―I mean this idea of impermanence is probably the only permanent thing. Like I would like to return to Vietnam and live again. I think it’s a different―I think for Vietnamese Americans to return to Vietnam and like live there, it’s a–it’s a–it’s a different experience in understanding your identity as just a Vietnamese American. Like it’s like–it’s–it’s in touch with your culture. But that culture has also progressed, you know? Like I think like the idea of―And there’s so many different waves of like immigration, of like refugees in the ‘90s. Up until now, there’s still Vietnamese people coming here. So, this idea of the Vietnamese American experience is always changing and always fluid. But the ones that, I think that first wave of people, like held on to a–a culture of Vietnam that is, in many ways, no longer, um, present in Vietnam today. It’s been forty, fifty years. That culture evolves and changes. So, like the idea of like going there, it’s like experiencing something new but familiar, you know, and that’s, like, exciting. But also, like realizing “Hey, I’m not–this is–I’m not from here, and I’m not―” Like I think for me it’s no longer the seeking out affirmation of identity but just living and learning and realizing that I–I have many friendships with like Vietnamese people in Vietnam and like realizing like we are―we had different lived experiences. But there is that–that common sort of like Vietnamese culture that always exists that is a bond, you know. So, I feel like that like going back was more about like learning and sustaining friendships and embracing something new. 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:36.000 Thank you. Um, you mentioned a common thread. This is a question I ask myself a lot as someone who is still trying to figure out the identity piece of myself. Like what, in your mind, what are those threads that make us–that make us Vietnamese or Vietnamese American? 00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:43.000 What makes us Vietnamese or Vietnamese American? 00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:44.000 That’s a hard question, I know. 00:44:44.000 --> 00:48:27.000 Yeah, that’s really hard. Um, yeah. Man. Well, I know for one, right? Like regardless of like whatever Vietnamese American experience there may be, or Vietnamese experience, like this is like cliché and lame, I think. But like literally like the easiest thing to say is food, right? I mean–I’ve think that transcends the Vietnamese culture too. I think like you―the easiest way to connect and relate to someone is over a meal, right? Like it’s–it is that. Um, and that’s the thing. Like everywhere I go in the U.S. or even the world, I always go to like Little Saigon or Viet Town or whatever it is. I remember in Prague, like I sought out like the Vietnamese area. So, it’s like always like I don’t know if it’s like food, but maybe that’s just like a metaphor for something larger, like the seeking of–of home, of–of ― And that’s the weird thing. Like I’m comfortable in my own skin yet you go and you seek a diaspora of your culture as if it’s―you’re missing something, you know? But, or maybe it’s just familiarity, I don’t know. It’s always like I want like a bowl of pho or a bánh mì (banh mi, a sandwich) or even something beyond, you know, those two common dishes like everywhere you go. So, I think food is like something that really kind of connects people. But like also maybe it’s that–that thing I’m alluding to like searching, even though you may be confident of your identity, it’s― I don’t know if we’re lost, you know? Especially if people within that like the refugee diaspora. Like you could be comfortable and get to a point of like “I am Vietnamese American.” But maybe there’s always something you’re searching for, um, that’s like subconscious. I don’t know. And I think that’s―and I do see that a little bit with like the people I work with on this block, right? Even with my–my business partner. It’s like “Hey, we want to create cultural events and things.” But, you know, because like the–the fear, the reason why I stayed here was like, it’s almost the fear of, like, erasure. Right. It’s like the fear of like―I mean you see half this block. It’s like, empty. So, it’s like if once this is erased, if it is, maybe part of your identity is gone too. I don’t know. I think I’m going on a tangent, but I― Yeah. Because like I–even though like, you know, a place doesn’t officially make who you are but those like lived experiences in the space, the public realm, the physical realm, it’s strong. Like there is like ― right? It evokes memories and memories is like what like you asked me earlier, like if― I’m going to be real sad when Double Happiness closes. Because that―I don’t know if the kids will take over. Like those are like—and memories fade. So, it’s like if this–if this place is like―and I think that’s why cultural preservation and, like, efforts to kind of sustain cultural corridors is vital, because place matters and it–it’s part of your identity. And I think like yeah, wherever I go it’s like finding that slice of home, you know. Yeah. I don’t know. 00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:34.000 Yeah. I think I know what you’re talking about. Like my, um―actually this is your interview. We’ll talk― 00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:37.000 Oh no. Go ahead. I do want to hear. 00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:40.000 You do? Okay. So, I was born in the Chicago suburbs. 00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:41.000 Oh, okay. 00:48:41.000 --> 00:49:17.000 And so my–my parents lived in the suburbs, and my–my bà ngoại (ba ngoai) lived with them. And so, she always wanted to come here to Argyle to go grocery shopping. I have no memory of that because I was like four when we left,to go to San Diego. But when I came back, knowing that she had been here just felt like a connection to her, you know? (starts to cry) Yeah, it just felt–I’ve just felt like a connection to her, even though I had never seen her on this block or, anything like I was there with her, so― 00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:22.000 Yeah. That’s the power of place, and knowing, right? 00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:27.000 Yeah. Our identity is built on place. It really is. I mean this whole project is–is about place. 00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:29.000 Yeah. 00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:32.000 Vietnamese–Vietnam and America. So, yeah. I get you. 00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:34.000 Thanks for sharing that. 00:49:34.000 --> 00:50:11.000 Yeah. (chuckles) I (pause) definitely have follow-up questions but I don’t know where to go with them. You mentioned that Vietnamese Americans are a monolith. I mean, not a monolith, sorry. (both chuckle) So, and we talked about like what’s a common thread, which is really hard to answer. But thank you for doing a good job with that. Um, how do you find yourself different from other Vietnamese Americans? And I don’t mean better or worse. Just different. 00:50:11.000 --> 00:52:48.000 No, I think there are a lot of differences. I think like, you know, like I’ve–I have a lot of Vietnamese American friends that lived in Vietnam with me, right? So, we–and we had that shared experience of like Việt Kiều (Viet Kieu, overseas Vietnamese, or the Vietnamese diaspora) living in Vietnam. But we were different as well. Like they grew up in larger diasporas of Vietnamese community, like SoCal or Orange County, you know. And I think like being—the difference might be—number one—like you know, language. The embracing of like what is considered the dominant idea of Vietnamese American culture. Yeah, I feel like—dang, this is hard to explain. Like the difference lies in (sighs)—See the thi–, the idea is like, “what is Vietnamese?” To me it’s like–it’s hard to even like grasp, right? Like and it’s like almost like if you start identifying things it becomes like oh this stereotypical thing. Um, but I don’t know. There’s a guy on Instagram, Sup Dawk. He always like shows like Chú Hài (Chu Hai), like those like—That’s like real Vietnamese, like karaoke, you know. Those are like, you know, it’s kind of stereotypical Vietnamese. Like I feel like, I mean, if–if you want to point to something like, I mean, yeah, you see it in Vietnam all over. And like Vietnamese American communities like nhậu (nhau, drinking and socializing), you know. In a way, those represent community in a way, right? I think like–I think the heart of it is like is collectivism of shared experience and shared identity. And where I think I differ oftentimes and that–that’s why I think, even today like working in this community like the difference it boils down to like this idea of like–of more individualistic kind of outlook on life. Even though I’m part of a community and I engage in community, but like there are certain boundaries that I draw within my own identity. And I think that’s not a very “Vietnamese” thing, I would say. I think that’s, I think, more of a western concept. Um, so I mean I don’t even know where I’m getting at, maybe like the idea of a more collective experience versus a more kind of insular approach to life and straddling those two kind of thoughts. 00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:53.000 Tell me more about having boundaries around your identity. 00:52:53.000 --> 00:54:02.000 You know, like just like simple things like I’m on the block I used to work at—Southeast Asia Center—as a case worker, or a social service case worker. So, I had a lot of Vietnamese clients, like of many generations. And like the other day I ran into one of my clients. He is an older gentleman, like former Viet–South Vietnam vet. (clears throat) And he knows I used to work for the—like just boundaries like asking like “Oh, oh, you–you make more better money now” type of like “Oh, you look like fatter now.” It’s like that ease of that generation and how I—because I may be born here and have inherited, you know, different cultural learnings, that’s a little weird to me. And like “No. I’m not going to tell you how much I make.” And like it’s like, you know, so, it’s like kind of like navigating that, those like minor hiccups or maybe conflicts on a daily–or when you interact with like different generations. 00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:03.000 Okay. 00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:41.000 The expectation of what it is to be Vietnamese or you lose your roots, you know. It’s like I think a certain generation is going to say “Oh, you mat goc,” or you—all that stuff. But like have we really? Like have we lost our roots? Maybe we just have a different identity, you know, rather than like having this one monolith mold of what it is to be Vietnamese. I think it’s—for any ident–for any culture, any race. Like there’s no one. That’s–I think that’s dangerous, right? But yeah. I don’t know if that answers the question. 00:54:41.000 --> 00:55:02.000 Yeah. It absolutely did. Thank you. How do—This is going to be another tough one. I’m sorry. How do people in the Vietnamese American community see you? 00:55:02.000 --> 00:56:10.000 I don’t know how they see me. I can–I feel like I have a perception of how they perceive me. I don’t fully know, right? I don’t think like we can fully know how they see you. I think it varies between like what are, you know, the generations and the subcultures of Vietnamese people. I think for the peop–like the younger generation here and then especially with the work like kind of like activating space and doing like creative projects I think like, not only the Vietnamese American youth or people in my generation but like, you know, other Asian Americans, look at like me and my business partner who have HAIBAYÔ (HAIBAYO) as like kind of, you know, creative—maintaining not only Vietnamese culture but like Vietnamese American culture and treating experiences that are lived, not of the past but like it’s currently going on. But, wait. The question was, how do you think people view you, right? 00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:11.000 Mm-hmm. 00:56:11.000 --> 00:59:25.000 I really don’t know. Like I think like there’s a sense of—when I see the older generation of people—it varies. Like I think there’s some people—My perception, and maybe it’s clouded of, you know, oftentimes like self-doubt and like my own insecurities of things, anxiety, whatever. I might feel like “Oh, they’re like—maybe they think I’m not Vietnamese enough.” You know, maybe they like, you know, I’m not doing the same things they’re doing. You know, I’m not like—And even you often don’t see many like—I think in the Vietnamese diaspora of the older generation of success of a younger person is like, right, you–you’ve heard that “oh, if you’re a doctor or lawyer…like how are you going to make money?” Like I haven’t followed that path and like none of my cousins and like a lot of people—and that’s the thing too. Like a lot of Vietnamese Americans that I connect with don’t follow that path. So, I think like even within —there’s a divide between like the people that don’t follow that trajectory of like just making money and more people who follow more creative pathways to like their own career. I think I resonate more with that subculture anyway. So, like I’m surrounded by those people and a lot of them are Vietnamese American. So, like with those people like I feel like there’s just common understanding because like we— But sometimes when I’m in circles where there’s like “Hey, I’m like doctor, accountant…” like there’s not much of a connect beyond the surface level things, right? Oh like food, small talk, things like that. But I think it’s like, that’s the difference within this generation. But yeah. With an older generation of Vietnamese American, like I don’t know. Sometimes I feel like I hear compliments. Sometimes I–I hear people say like “You, you’re not even Viet—” like, you know. So, it varies. But what I—my perception it’s–it’s a whole gamut of like how people view you. And you can’t control that ultimately, you know. I can’t control if they view me that way and–and is it even worth it to–to make me lose sleep. Sometimes, you know, those who matter don’t mind and those who mind don’t matter, I guess. But, yeah, you can’t—for me, I don’t really—yeah, I don’t know. Like I used to like really care about that in terms of like—or not care, but like it would eat me up. Like yeah, like, fuck, am I Vietnamese enough for this person? But like everyone has a different opinion. It’s like a bowl of pho. What’s good pho? You know? I recently made like more northern pho and gave it to southern people. They hate it! Because it’s too salty. It’s— pho is supposed to be sweet for southerners, you know? So, it’s a challenge, yeah. Like I used to let it like really eat–eat away at me but at this point like you can only live your most authentic self, whatever that may be. Yeah. 00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:35.000 What about your parents? Did they ever try to instill some sense of what–what you should be as a person or as a Vietnamese person? 00:59:35.000 --> 01:01:38.000 Yeah. I think like number one where it was like language, I would say. Um, and that—my Vietnamese has like only gotten better because I lived in Vietnam and like I worked in community. But like—and also I made an effort to try to practice it more. But like I didn’t really—like in my teen years, I never even really spoke Vietnamese. And like at that age I never would engage with people. Like my people our age, like I would just speak English. I still speak English with my cousins, you know? Um, but yeah. There was always that kind of language aspect. Um, just like weird customs—not weird but it’s like customs that could be conflicting with like, you know, things here. I don’t know. But it—I don’t feel like—I think both my sister and I were—we pushed the envelope. Like we challenged them a lot in terms of like— surprisingly, they were old, of a older generation. Like the gap between my father and me is like 50 years and then my mom is like in her 70s. So, they’re like a little older than, you know, some other Vietnamese folks. So, I think as someone of that generation to come here, like you would imagine them being extremely traditional. And they–they in some ways they are. But I think like that relationship and of realizing too like “Hey.” I don’t know. I’ve never talked to them about this. But maybe like they’ve accepted like “Hey, this is like who my–who my kids are.” And like you can instill and try to push for certain preserv–preservation of certain cultural customs here and there. But also realizing that maybe, yeah, maybe like you can’t fully pass everything down —I think. I mean, yeah. That’s how I feel. 01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:48.000 Okay. Last question on this topic. How do you see yourself? 01:01:48.000 --> 01:03:57.000 How do I see myself? I guess in the realm of identity, of culture, if we’re talking about Vietnamese American, yeah, I–I feel like I’m one of many identities of what Vietnamese American is, and it’s always evolving. I see myself as— I don’t like to say like certain things, like about—you know, like toot my own horn but like I feel like I am becoming one of the community leaders of this area. I take like—you know, I’m honored to do that, to be one of many who are, you know, stepping up in this second generation and trying to preserve culture but also like creating new and fresh things that tie to a culture. So, like, yeah. I view myself as someone who cares about, you know, this–this specific community of Argyle and the Vietnamese community here in Chicago. Because it’s not big. It’s not, you know? And it ties back to self, of home. Like how can I sustain it so that part of me is not gone? Um, but yeah. I don’t know. Like I don’t–I don’t really think about—or I haven’t for a long time thought about—what it means as my identity of Vietnamese American. I haven’t—it’s been a while actually. I think I would say that I’m more confident in–in the cultural, whatever those cultural components that I–that I hold onto and that I value. I’m more confident in that now than I was like 20 years ago. Um, but yeah. I don’t—That’s–that’s a hard question. (starts to chuckle, and Ho joins in) 01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:03.000 That’s good that you haven’t really thought about it. In my mind, that’s —it sounds like you found peace then within yourself. 01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:16.000 Yeah. I think––yeah, I do feel that I’m at more at peace in terms of that–that realm of identity than I was before. 01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:25.000 Um, so you mentioned that you, everywhere you go, you look for Little Saigon or whatever, wherever the diaspora is. 01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:26.000 Yeah. 01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:42.000 So, we’re talking about place now. Um, what are some–what are some places, what are some cities where–where the–where you find that the community is really interesting or exceptional in some way? 01:04:42.000 --> 01:08:37.000 Yeah. Let me think. Okay. I have to think back at all those Little Saigons I’ve been to. Well, I mean the obvious is probably like foodwise and like just the level of like claiming space and calling the space home. I feel like the bigger areas where there’s more Vietnamese people, there’s just so much diversity and food experience that you can get, right? I’ve been at L.A. a few times but I always like go and visit my friends that live down there and like, it feels like in a way —and that’s why I think Little Saigons are created. It’s like Vietnam in many ways or whatever that Vietnam may be. So, it’s like a sense of ease. So, like San Jose is huge too. I’ve been there a few times. But I think like the most–the ones that stand out in my mind and that what’s most interesting actually might be probably like eastern Europe because it’s a different diaspora. And it’s a different migration pattern than the Little Saigon or, you know, Saigon whatever. Because there I don’t think they don’t call it Little Saigon. It’s more the northern folk that went to the former eastern bloc and lived there and created community there. So, it’s like a completely different experience. But there’s still like this idea–like I remember like in Budapest too when I was living there. Like I sought out Vietnamese people. And it was a completely different identity than my own, right, than my parents. They fought –these are people that I guess in a way won the war, right? They’re not the ones that fled because of like the collapse of Saigon. They went for economic opportunity or they were part of like the communist government back then or as diplomats. But they built their community there. So, I think those are interesting. Like it–it doesn’t resonate or there’s no strong tie to my own experience and my family’s experience. But there is still like this weird human connection of being Vietnamese. Even the politically—it’s so different, right? And I remember like hung out with like a bunch of like, you know, northern Vietnamese people. This was after I studied abroad in Vietnam, too. So, in a way I was more open to that, you know? But I–I think like east, like Czech Republic, like Prague, was interesting. Budapest’s Vietnamese community was interesting. But I also like find Paris really interesting, because that’s like a lot of Vietnamese people there are like—probably went there even before ’75, you know. So, it’s like this understanding of identity of are they more French or are they more—? and like the food is different, you know. So, I found that to be the historical layers of–of migration and also identity within those communities differ. But there’s always this wanting to go there and eating the food and learning about the Vietnamese community despite all of that. I mean, yeah. Those are—I’m trying to—there’s no–there’s—I was in Mexico recently but there’s no Vietnamese town. But I went to Chinatown though which is interesting. But yeah. I would really be interested in seeing more Viet towns. I mean I think mostly it’s in the U.S., you know, like the places where people went. But eastern Europe was interesting. 01:08:37.000 --> 01:08:59.000 Um, hmm. Okay. Um, who are some of the community leaders around here that people should know about. And actually, I wanted to talk about Jenny Pham and how–how did you two initially meet? 01:08:59.000 --> 01:14:02.000 Our parents are friends. So, they knew each other. So, my dad—So, there’s like a whole group of people who graduated from this program in Da Lat. It’s like a college in Da Lat, Vietnam. It’s called Chính trị, Kinh doanh (Chinh tri, Kinh doanh), so it’s like political and business major at Da Lat University. So, my dad —that group kind of met because they all are like alumni. (coughs) And her mom—sorry, excuse me—her mom was an alumni. My father was an alumni. (sniffles) And also there was another gentleman. His name is Tâm. Nguyễn Văn Tâm (Nguyen Van Tam). He is a community leader here. He actually works with me as an Ambassador Program. But he worked for many, many years at Vietnamese Association of Illinois. And now he’s at CMAA. But he’s like in his 80s. So, he’s like been a community leader consistently for the last–since he’s come here since the early 80s. But yeah. Like me and Jennifer, our parents know each other through that circle. We used to play piano together. There was a Vietnamese lady from Hue. Her name was like Cô Lạc Nhân (Co Lac Nhan). And she lived, surprisingly funny, on Mozart Avenue. And she had like 50 Vietnamese students, piano students. So, like through that too, like there was that community. So, I played piano with her and her brother. And she was like part of Viet — like just the same circle of growing up. But she’s a little older than me. So. then I hung out more with her brother at the time we were younger. (sniffles) Um, but that’s how I know her. And then we—actually we never really kept in touch. Like we would always know that we’re around. Like I ran into her like in Chicago like a few times here and there. But it wasn’t until like mid-2010s, 2015-16 or whatever where we reconnected. I was actually—I started another organization with a former friend who was also part of this community. She’s Tam’s— Chú Tam’s (Chu Tam’s) daughter. So, she was like, you know, grew up with us and so she’s younger than us a little. But her and I along with another few people actually started Axis Lab. But there was like challenges in working together. Um, just differences on vision. I think they still exist but I don’t know how functional they are. But her and I are co-founders of that. I eventually left. And then Jennifer was part of it but then she left as well. And her and I reconnected. We connected like prior to Axis Lab. Like we invited Jennifer in through that like kind of like that relationship was forged again and that friendship. And then after we both left like we connected. Hey, we wanted to like do something again on Argyle like maybe a year after. And that’s how HAIBAYO initially started. And I think you’ve been to a few—like it was really like more of like, Hey, you know, a lot of what Axis Lab did was really beautiful, right? It was like really curated, well thought out. But sometimes it’s a challenge working with–with pe—you know. Not everyone can work together. Um, but like, yeah. We started HAIBAYO and just kind of wanted to make it like a fun party. But also, that had culture, right? Like there was like food. We always had a food vendor. And we worked with the business on this block. Like at each different event it was always a different food restaurateur. (sniffles) And like I think you–like when you had Lawrence and Argyle you were at one or two of those events. You know, like so like building those networks and curating something that was within the younger or second generation Asian American identity yet also kind of honoring the past. That’s how we, yeah–that’s how we–I reconnected with her. And she–her father I think was like the first Vietnamese business owner on this block. Because this area used to be, prior to the fall of Saigon and a lot of influx of refugees from Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos, this area used to be more Chinese. So, there was a–I think it was like after the Tong Wars, you know, like with the Chinese Chinatown Tongs. Like Chinatown on the south side is run by like one Tong which is now like more of an association rather than, you know, its checkered past. And then here it’s Hip Sing which has like connections to San Francisco and New York. So, they actually came here first and bought up all the land and buildings. This was like kind of a, what urban planners like to say blighted, right? A blighted area. And people just started coming here after, you know, the war, and it became more southeast Asian and more Vietnamese even though there’s still a lot of Chinese. And a lot of ethnic Chinese from Vietnam came here, as well. So, I don’t even know where I’m getting. But anyhow like I think like, yeah. I forgot where I–what direction I’m going in. 01:14:02.000 --> 01:14:07.000 Um, we were talking about Jenny’s family’s business. 01:14:07.000 --> 01:15:02.000 Oh, yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah. He was like the first Vietnamese business because it was mostly Chinese businesses, and she is still part of—And that pharmacy (Mini Thương Xá Pharmacy, Mini Thuong Xa Pharmacy) is still here. And I think, I don’t want to speak for her. But she does––one thing she tells me, and often, and she does say it and she shares with other people like her–she herself didn’t think she was going to stay here either. But she said that there was a moment in the past where her dad was thinking about retiring and selling this pharmacy, this family pharmacy, to like CVS. And that sparked something in her that brought her back here. And through that and, you know, she has her own journey and her own story which I’m not going to say for her. But that one thing like, through that, I think that allowed us to reconnect. (clears throat and sniffles) 01:15:02.000 --> 01:15:22.000 You’ve talked about this a little bit. But what do you think it is that–that keeps us doing what you were doing. And I guess when I say “us” I mean people like you and–and her. Um, is it obligation? Is it, um, you’ve mentioned fear of erasure? 01:15:22.000 --> 01:19:54.000 I think it’s more like for a lot–I’ll speak independent for me. Like I’ve said in many past interviews with folks that it’s like carrying on the cultural legacy of our parents. And to a certain degree, I still believe that but a lot of this work I think too is for one’s self and for others like us, um, of like a younger generation. Because we can’t move backward. We can only move forward. And you can never forget where you come from either. So like honoring those past histories but also thinking about the now and the challenges that exist now. And yeah. Are we going to exist? We’ll always exist as independently into the future regardless of the spaces here or not. But is that value of like that fear of erasure of–of displacement of like, you know. Like I could just go to a Vietnamese restaurant but like there’s something else about when you–you go to a corridor or a larger community that is your diaspora and you have those connections and you have like—That’s why like Chinatowns, Little Saigons are important, right? And the cultural preservation of these cultural districts is vital because of like—it is identity. It is community and–and it’s okay to have like ethnic enclaves in cities. I don’t—A lot of people say like “Oh, I don’t want to be, you know, labelled as like just living in a Chinatown.” But those are like—it–there’s a beauty in having that space and honoring and carrying on those cultural legacies and also evolving, adapting to what it is that is your identity. I think like we did get a large grant to open up a cultural events space and that’s gonna—It’s not gonna be like—It’s going to be our own experience because our visions and our experience will, you know, will define that space, you know. So, it is–it’s Vietnamese American, and we really want to push like the history of Argyle storytelling and highlighting other people. But yeah, as I think it’s important, right? Especially for this community right now. There’s so many vacancies and like, how do we mobilize now because there’s so many external forces that are going to impact this area in a negative way, right? The–there’s—for years there was this Streetscape project that took two to three years that impacted local businesses. The CTA (Chicago Transit Authority, or in this instance, specifically the “el” or elevated train) is getting fixed right now. You know, obviously like it’s good to have like infrastructure that is ADA accessible. But also a lot of small businesses are hurt. There’s been like nine closures since the pandemic and this train system, or this train construction happened during that time. So, yeah. They’re like—So now is the time of like, how do we connect with other community leaders? And collectively like start envisioning and identifying the challenges and the opportunities and things like that to sustain this cultural legacy of this area. And the good thing is like the governor of this state in 2021 passed a bill saying like certain areas, geographic areas could be culture districts. So, I don’t know what that looks like on a hyperlocal level, but that is a law in the state of Illinois. Um, but I’m very excited about the future. Even though like now is like—I think there’s so much opportunity right now. This district elected the first Vietnamese American politician. He’s a friend of ours, Hoàn Huỳnh (Hoan Huynh). So, we work like with him like being connected to like CMAA, Chinese Mutual Aid Association. They were founded by a Vietnamese Chinese man, refugee, but have evolved and like done a lot of different really cool, innovative things for this area. So, just having like—And then there’s a–the alderperson is a Filipina–queer Filipina American woman that, you know— How do we kind of convene and really think about strategically carrying on this—or preserving this—culture in this district. Um, I think it’s–it’s critical, you know? 01:19:54.000 --> 01:19:56.000 So, you plan to stick around for a while and be part of the—. 01:19:56.000 --> 01:19:59.000 Yeah. I have. I plan to. 01:19:59.000 --> 01:20:11.000 That’s great. What is the definition of cultural district? Like how did they define it when they—or–or do you know? 01:20:11.000 --> 01:20:12.000 No. I need to look up that. 01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:25.000 Okay. (both laugh). No worries. Um, okay. So, I–so you’ve been–you’ve been back–you’ve been to Vietnam many times, it sounds like. 01:20:25.000 --> 01:20:26.000 No. I’ve only been there twice, actually. 01:20:26.000 --> 01:20:28.000 Oh really! 01:20:28.000 --> 01:20:41.000 Yeah. But, um, the first time was like study abroad. Then I went before and stayed after a little just to travel. So, that was like eight months or so, six–seven months. And then I moved back for like three years. 01:20:41.000 --> 01:20:42.000 Okay. 01:20:42.000 --> 01:20:50.000 But that was like twenty-eight to twenty-eleven, 2008 to 2011. So, I actually haven’t been back to Vietnam in thirteen years, or twelve years at this point. 01:20:50.000 --> 01:20:52.000 Okay. 01:20:52.000 --> 01:20:53.000 Um, and it’s changed probably drastically. 01:20:53.000 --> 01:20:54.000 I’m sure. 01:20:54.000 --> 01:20:55.000 Yeah. 01:20:55.000 --> 01:20:58.000 Yeah. Um, how are you doing on like energy right now? 01:20:58.000 --> 01:20:59.000 Oh, I’m good. 01:20:59.000 --> 01:21:00.000 You’re good? 01:21:00.000 --> 01:21:01.000 Yeah. 01:21:01.000 --> 01:21:03.000 What time is it? What time is it? 01:21:03.000 --> 01:21:04.000 12:16. 01:21:04.000 --> 01:21:20.000 Okay. Cool. Um, so I want to–I want to ask like how— I’m sure every time you go–both times you’ve gone to Vietnam, you’ve come back changed in some way, affected in some way. 01:21:20.000 --> 01:21:21.000 Yeah, I would say so. 01:21:21.000 --> 01:21:24.000 Can you–can you talk a bit about–about that? 01:21:24.000 --> 01:22:43.000 Yeah. I think the first time I went was— The reason why I went was like, you know, it tied to like that–the idea of identity. Um, also it was beyond just identity, right? Like for me, to go to Vietnam was also to–to learn about my dad’s—like it–it was not intentional. But I–what happened when I was there is that I met his family. (sniffles) You know, I met his brother. I met his older sister, and I met his entire family that he—really I never knew about in my entire life. And like to forge those relationships—it was like odd at first because like I didn’t know them. But they were so generous and close, right? Um, or o–being open to like this level of closeness. So, I found that really, for me, like really heartwarming to have this–this family in this faraway space that I’ve never met and like forging those relationships and creating lived experiences with them. So, that was like a very personal like family thing that I was buil–was able to build. Um, but yeah. I think like — Could you repeat the question one more time? 01:22:43.000 --> 01:22:47.000 Yeah. How did your trips there affect you? 01:22:47.000 --> 01:27:31.000 Oh, okay. Um, so yeah. On a personal level—family, it affected me that way. Identity-wise, it really, really like—There was a lot of things that I realized about my identity that I wasn’t like—I was searching like, am I Vietnamese, right? And I think like that became clearer—is that you could still embrace certain cultural customs and traditions and still be whatever you are. So, I think I–it–those years in Vietnam allowed me see like hey, you know, there are certain instances that I experienced that how I am, like a little more western. Um, and that–and I’m fine with that. So, like it solidified my own identity, as being like Vietnamese American, whatever that may mean. But also I think career-wise it really—like I worked in like different realms of like non-profit and like non-governmental in Vietnam. Um, and I think that kind of really solidified like my passion for working with community and building something with others. I saw a lot of poverty. I’ve seen things that like I never thought I would see, you know? Like going into the very rural areas and seeing poverty and lack of access and lack of resource was like eye-opening. I remember like driving up to the mountains in Da Nang and we were working with a family who the father was a south Vietnamese—he fought for the south. And his two sons who are like twenty—They were older than me at the time. Like I think I was like in my twenties. But they were like approaching thirty. They were like two brothers and they had like Agent Orange. And like because of his alliances with the south Vietnamese like they get nothing from the government. So, to see that this like completely different trajectory of like what it is to be Vietnamese from this place of war. Also like, you know, it humbled me, my–like myself in terms of how lucky I am to exist where I exist today. Because like I could have been completely different. And to see that in Vietnam, especially then my second time around, that’s where I worked. Like I worked with street youth. I worked—like it was things that you, living here I never thought. I mean there’s poverty here, right? There’s so many issues that exist in this country, with like any country. But like, yeah, that was—that impacted me in terms of like wanting to follow a certain path that is, you know, not about money. Because money doesn’t ultimately matter, you know, when— And also another thing I learned too is like, you know, despite—and this—I don’t like saying this. But there is a sense of like this human connection. In Vietnamese, they say like—and that’s where it’s interesting when I go back and talk about like this idea of like more individualistic and which I think there are the certain boundaries that I draw for myself and my identity. But like a lot of it too, like what I really found beautiful about Vietnam like they say like, “sống với tình cảm (song voi tinh cam),” like to live with like, you know, tinh cam, I think that means like–like emotion or human connection or something. And I think that’s very real, and I experienced in Vietnam. You can become friends with someone that you’re just sitting outside and having a coffee. I became friends with people because of that openness. And you learn about that person, and you forge whatever relationship you want to forge with them. And I do feel like I miss that especially when I came back to the states. Like I missed that human connection, you know. I felt very alienated here. And then, you know, over time now I don’t feel that. I feel like those kind of cultural, collective community bonds that exist within the Vietnamese culture happens here, right? Like it’s—despite like how much that I don’t know how people look at me, but like interacting with them and having that sense of community is like, it–in many w–yeah, it makes you feel part of something, you know. To feel accepted and to feel, yeah, to be part of something is important. So I think like those are the takeaways that I’ve—the key ones for me in my life from my experience in Vietnam, I would say. 01:27:31.000 --> 01:27:58.000 That’s great. Yeah. I feel like when I–when I came here, the community was very open and welcoming. So, I think that you and the people here have everything to do with that, that just sharing that openness. So, I definitely see that. Are there any questions about yourself, your identity that you’re still asking? 01:27:58.000 --> 01:29:09.000 Mmm. I don’t think so. I think I’m—I don’t question it. What I realize is that, yeah, like my identity will evolve to s—you know, like, and that’s the evolution of who we are is based off of different types of experiences. Like I don’t know like where we’ll be and how I’ll feel about myself and my identity of being Vietnamese American in a year or two years from now if, you know, when we open up space. There’s more—I don’t know, like, what I’ll be then. So, I think like it’s not more about questioning but it’s more about curiosity and being open to like letting life impact you. You have to take the good and the bad, I guess, and how that will change you and who you are. Yeah, because I feel like there’s going to be really great things for this community if we work together collect— (at this point, his phone rings) oh. 01:29:09.000 --> 01:29:10.000 Is that the alarm? 01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:32.000 Yeah. But yeah. If we work together and yeah, you–we change, you know. Like once you’re pushed onto like a larger stage of this community and building community, you embrace that change and you embrace that evolved identity of yourself. I don’t know. (laughs) 01:29:32.000 --> 01:29:53.000 No, that’s great. Thank you. I have two more questions. I know we’re super low on time. So, I’ll just ask them real quick. Um, what do you—so, there’s a–there’s a very contentious, often contentious relationship between the Black community and the Asian American community. 01:29:53.000 --> 01:29:55.000 Yeah. 01:29:55.000 --> 01:29:58.000 And I wanted to get your thoughts on that. 01:29:58.000 --> 01:34:05.000 Yeah. I mean I—you know when especially—that there is, right? I remember when a lot of that—it was a few years ago—I mean that’s still—I mean these issues happen today. I believe that, you know, there is a–an entire distrust and a gap or a lack of understanding between the Black and Asian community. And I think a lot of it, from the Asian perspective, is perpetuated within—I don’t know if it’s racism. I’ve seen it in Vietnam in the sense where oftentimes like this idea and this larger kind of idea of color, colorism, influences and–and–and makes way into someone’s mind of value of the human, right? Like in Vietnam if you work in the fields, you’re darker and you’re poor. And I think a lot of that has influenced certain people and like this cultural understanding of colorism of class and human worth which is—when you assess it, I mean, it’s fucked up. I think like—and also like the struggle of the Black community here it’s—for me, as an Asian American and Vietnamese American as much as there’s been trauma and hardship from our diaspora, there’s—like to be enslaved by white people for 400+ years and to suddenly be expected to—and that have no resources and still feel the racism, like to me I think that is atr–outrageous. And I think there needs to be more understanding from—like for us, like especially if our parents and the older generation hold onto these ideas of what they view as certain, you know, negative stereotypes of Black people, it’s our responsibility, if we don’t believe that, you break those barriers and talk to our parents, um, and talk to like those–the elders. Because it’s not okay. Like I think we can’t sit here and talk about like our trauma and our struggles and hope that the larger dominant racist society accepts us without doing the same to other communities of color. And there are similar threads but it’s incomparable in terms of like what Black people have experienced in this country versus like Vietnamese people. And I don’t want to play “oppression Olympics” but that is true, right? Like Vietnamese people weren’t slave–enslaved for 400 years here. Yeah, we were forced from our land politically, but we weren’t stripped from our land and viewed as not human. So, I think like it’s important for our generation and I think a lot of younger generations are—who live here and like, you know, when you live in America you’re embraced and you’re surrounded by other cultures and you learn and you expand and you grow. I think that’s critical in terms of like this idea of like, you know, the—of justice and equity. Um, a lot of younger generations even like after like Gen Z Asian Americans are way more open-minded than previous generations. But it’s–it’s going to take a lot of collective effort. But it does start with yourself and really challenging your beliefs. A lot of—I’ve talked to like other Asian Americans who don’t—like they just inherit this racist ideology from their parents, and they view Black people this way or this or that way. It’s like, yeah, you have to—you know, you have conversations, and you try to critically analyze why they think the why they do. And sometimes they just don’t care and that’s—but it does start with conversation and challenging those really kind of toxic, deadly beliefs. 01:34:05.000 --> 01:34:09.000 You mentioned having conversations with elders. Have you been able to do that? 01:34:09.000 --> 01:35:28.000 Yeah. Actually like a few years ago, I sent an email to like, my whole family, like all the elders about like Asians and like how—and Black Lives Matter. (sniffles) And there’s some people that didn’t respond because I think they probably hold on to those—I don’t know. But that–there’s family members that—I’m lucky enough that most of my family members actually are pretty liberal even in that generation. But there’s some that are, you know, that voted for Trump and that have consistently voted not in their own interests unless it’s just about money. I don’t know. But yeah. Like I sent an email and my father like wrote a whole thing and shared stuff like about Black Lives Matter. So, like that was like really—like I think I’m lucky because my mom and my dad like—my dad was an educator, I would say. Like that’s where I think he views himself even though he has like done different things. And my mom has been like a case–like a social worker working with youth and tons of immigrant families from like all over the world. So, like they inherited a lot more love for humanity and understanding and breaking down those barriers. And I think my sister and I inherited that, you know. 01:35:28.000 --> 01:35:43.000 That’s great. That’s awesome. Um, okay. So, I want to ask what’s next for you. But also, since we’re running low on time also if there’s anything else that you want to say. 01:35:43.000 --> 01:36:52.000 Mmm, what’s next for me? I think this is a new beginning. Um, not a new beginning because I’m–I think like there’s so many new doors opening not only for me but like for me as an individual that’s part of this community, this Vietnamese American community in Chicago. I think there’s so many exciting—I mean there’s going to be a lot of work and a lot of challenges. But I think the pathways to like really –I wouldn’t say elevate but like really solidifying and making this community stronger is–is endless and boundless. So, I’m excited about that and I think that’s my role in–as one segment of the–the larger collective and that is exciting. So, and that’s I think next steps. Um, (coughs) do I want to say anything else? Mmm… 01:36:52.000 --> 01:36:57.000 It could also be, um, anything about your parents you want to share. 01:36:57.000 --> 01:36:58.000 Oh, okay. 01:36:58.000 --> 01:36:59.000 I mean anything— 01:36:59.000 --> 01:37:01.000 Oh. It could be anything. 01:37:01.000 --> 01:37:12.000 Oh, yeah, anything at all. Um, but if you wanted to like share a memory that maybe your dad told you about or something just so that it’s stated so that when you’re gone one day, it’ll be— 01:37:12.000 --> 01:38:18.000 I think like I was—this–earlier this year, I was faced with something very scary. I don’t know if I really mentioned it earlier in this interview. But there is this like emotional disconnect with my parents. Like even though I love them, there’s—it’s a challenge for me to like share how fully I feel. And like my father was actually like struck by a vehicle in January. And like the police came and said—I woke up to my mom crying. Like we thought he died. So, like I think like it’s important—it is a challenge and there’s inherited trauma of–of–of all of us, of Vietnamese American. Our parents come from war. Our parents come from things that we can’t even imagine. And there is things that—I’m not saying that inherent trauma is right, the way they raised us. They were trying to figure out their own way. So, like it was eye opening to me that—to see that my dad could have died in the short time I have left with him. It’s too—Oh man. I feel like I’m going to cry. 01:38:18.000 --> 01:38:23.000 That’s okay. 01:38:23.000 --> 01:39:22.000 It’s like (sighs) yeah, like really—as hard as it may be, like try to understand your parents and like break down those barriers before it’s too late. Because I’m lucky that he’s still alive and my mom’s still here. But I don’t want to have regrets, you know. And I understand like it’s—we all have—like I feel like there’s the way I was raised, it’s–it’s inherited that they contributed to like mental health and like end of the—like there’s something like once you’re gone, you’re gone. And if you don’t say what you need to say or reconcile what you need to reconcile, you’ll never have a chance. So, I think like I’m trying to figure that out and work on that. Because like that was–that was hard. And it’s like still like a path towards healing right now. But yeah. I want to just end at that. 01:39:22.000 --> 01:39:36.000 Okay. Thank you. Um, thank you for taking the time to sit down with me and chat with me. This–this project is–um, a big part of it is–is for a path towards healing for our generation. 01:39:36.000 --> 01:39:37.000 Yeah. 01:39:37.000 --> 01:39:41.000 Because we do have a whole lot of inherited trauma that we’ve been given. So— 01:39:41.000 --> 00:00:00.000 No, thank you for the opportunity to, you know, share and just speak. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_access.xml TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tran, Hac. Interview April 25, 2023. Description An account of the resource Hac Tran is a Vietnamese American community organizer. In this interview he shares his parents' immigration stories, his childhood growing up in Chicago, and his work in the cultural district of Asia on Argyle in the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago. Hac also speaks about living and studying in Vietnam and how these experiences shaped him personally. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-107 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-25 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hac Tran Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Chicago--History; Vietnam; Cultural heritage Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Chicago (Ill.); Milwaukee (Wis.); Budapest (Hungary); Czech Republic; Saigon (Vietnam); Đà Nẵng (Vietnam); Đà Lạt (Vietnam); Hội An (Vietnam); Quảng Nam--Đà Nẵng (Vietnam) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Hac Tran Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c71f7756a4ca050fbb015bad6116977f.pdf c9b281fd02c8936368d9a7c9f289910d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tran, Hac. Interview transcript, April 25, 2023 Description An account of the resource Hac Tran is a Vietnamese American community organizer. In this interview he shares his parents' immigration stories, his childhood growing up in Chicago, and his work in the cultural district of Asia on Argyle in the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago. Hac also speaks about living and studying in Vietnam and how these experiences shaped him personally. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hac Tran Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Melissa Martin Jennifer Ho Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-25 Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Chicago--History; Vietnam; Cultural heritage Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Chicago (Ill.); Milwaukee (Wis.); Budapest (Hungary); Czech Republic; Saigon (Vietnam); Đà Nẵng (Vietnam); Đà Lạt (Vietnam); Hội An (Vietnam); Quảng Nam--Đà Nẵng (Vietnam) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Hac Tran Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_transcript Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Ho Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Amy Vo OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=VoAmy_HoJennifer_2022-11-10.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Vietnamese American identity OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Vo, Amy. Interview November 10, 2022. SC027-108 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the CSUSM Faculty Center's Professional Development Grant. csusm Vietnamese American identity community immigration Vietnam Amy Vo Jennifer Ho moving image VoAmy_HoJennifer_2022-11-10.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2400e2e5d03836344481cb1337ea99f1.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Amy Vo, November 10, 2022, by Jennifer Ho. 0 37 Migration, childhood and community Amy talks about her childhood spent in the U.S. and overseas, and the Vietnamese communities in these regions. She also shares her parents’ migration stories. Tulsa ; Saint Francis Hospital ; Saigon/Ho Chi Minh City ; Vinh Long ; Hanoi ; Vietnam ; Vietnamese community ; Brunei ; refugee camps ; political division ; communism ; Krispy Kreme ; New York ; Chino Hills ; La Brea ; petroleum engineering ; Unocal ; Chevron ; San Jose ; Louisiana ; Dallas ; Alabama ; conservative community ; Republican ; Singapore ; Islam ; Islam/Muslim ; Chinese Buddhist ; Bangkok, Thailand ; employee resource groups ; Princetonians ; LGBTQIA ; New Jersey ; Philadelphia ; Los Angeles ; Japanese ; Chinese 0 2139 Vietnamese identity Amy reflects on her Vietnamese identity and how it was influenced by her time overseas as well as her life at home. Japanese, Taiwanese, Indian, American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, British 0 2508 Mom's cooking Amy shares her childhood memories of her mother’s cooking and the ways in which her mom has been expanding her culinary skillset. She talks about how her mom teaches people to cook, and her favorite thing her mom makes. accountant ; NHK ; meals ; Korean food ; Japanese food ; Asian food ; Italian food ; cha gio ; bun rieu ; curry 0 3120 Grandparents and language Amy talks about her grandparents on both sides, and her relationships with them. She also addresses language and how it limits her ability to interact with Vietnamese people. ba ngoai ; ba noi ; Tulsa ; Dallas ; Japanese occupation ; Vietnamese language ; KFC ; language fluency ; language loss 0 4059 What does it mean to be a Vietnamese person? In this section, Amy reflects on how her parents indirectly taught her about Vietnamese heritage, including traditions and communication styles. Religion ; tradition ; communication 0 Oral history Amy Vo is an archivist in New Jersey. In this interview, she shares her experiences growing up in cities and countries around the world and her experiences being the only Vietnamese American person in these places. She also reflects on her heritage and what it means to be in community with other Vietnamese people.&#13 ; NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:29.000 This is Jennifer Ho interviewing Amy Vo for Children of Refugees, an oral history project on the Vietnamese American experience. Today is November 10, 2022, 10:36 a.m. Pacific Time and we are meeting via Zoom. Thanks for being here with me today, Amy. 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000  00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:31.000 Thanks, Jenn. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:37.000 Yeah, all right. So, let’s just get into it. Tell me when and where you were born. 00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:45.000 I was born (redacted), 1988, in Tulsa, Oklahoma in Saint Francis Hospital. (chuckles) 00:00:45.000 --> 00:01:00.000 Okay. All right. Cool! And tell me about your parents. Where did they come from? And tell me about their migration story. 00:01:00.000 --> 00:02:37.000 Um, I guess generally I broadly know that my parents both grew up in Sài Gòn (Saigon). So, and my dad also spent some time in the country outside of Saigon in Vĩnh Long (Vinh Long). And my mom’s family originally came from the north, like a couple of hours outside of Hà Nội (Hanoi). And they had to move down. I only learned this recently, actually, like a few months ago, that my mom’s family moved down, I think in the ‘50s or ‘60s. And like if they hadn’t, then her father would have been killed, which is kind of crazy to learn. And I feel like that happens a lot in our family where we learn these like really fundamental or like huge details. I wouldn’t even call them details. They’re like really big events in like our family history that aren’t even talked about or mentioned until, you know, I’m 34, so like 34 years later. Yeah. But–but then they spent most of their like childhoods and, I guess, young adulthoods in Saigon. My mom left maybe when she was in her early twenties, I think, or maybe when she was twenty or late teens. 00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:40.000 She left Việt Nam (Vietnam) to come to the U.S.? 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:53.000 Yeah. She left like the day that Saigon fell in ’75. And my dad left later, in ’78 or ’79. 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:57.000 Okay. Did they already know each other in Vietnam? 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:19.000 No! They happened to meet each other in Tulsa, because they both started going to college at the University of Tulsa. And I think, if I’m remembering correctly, it’s my–my aunt, one of my mom’s younger sisters, who knew my dad somehow. And that’s how they met, through her. 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:20.000 Okay. 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:48.000 Yeah. Yeah. I mean the–I–I think the Vietnamese community was pretty small in–in Tulsa, Oklahoma, or like growing actually because I heard that there are a lot of Vietnamese people who are still there now. But I imagine it’s like a smaller community on campus which is like where they mostly met people. 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:59.000 Okay. When they came to the U.S., did they land directly in Tulsa or were there like a few stops along the way? Did they stay in a camp somewhere? 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:50.000 (nods) Yeah. I’m not a hundred percent sure about my mom. I know she did stay in a camp somewhere, but I don’t remember where it was. And my dad had quite a journey between leaving Vietnam and coming to Tulsa. And he started writing about it recently. And like what I knew before was that he went to Brunei. But I don’t think that’s where his–the camp was that he stayed at. But, um, I’m not sure. And I know that before they came to Tulsa, at least for my dad, his older sister was already in Arkansas. So, yeah. I’m not sure about like the timeline at all. 00:04:50.000 --> 00:05:10.000 Okay. Okay. That’s very interesting. If we could back track for a moment, and–and if you want to share, do you know why your mom’s family had to move around? You said your grandfather might have been killed. (Vo nods) Do you know anything about that, that you would want to share? 00:05:10.000 --> 00:06:13.000 Um, from what I understand, it had to do with politics because the north was more communist and I think—I know that when they went to the south, like my uncles joined the military in south Vietnam and then maybe some other family members were working with the government, or in the government, because that was part of why they–my mom was able to leave by, I think, helicopter like the day that Saigon fell. So, I think that was part of it. Yeah. And–and then my understanding of history is fuzzy too, because I know like ‘50s and ‘60s there are already like things happening in the country leading up to the–the war and America joining in that, in conflict with the— I don’t know. 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:20.000 Okay. Okay. Has your mom said anything about the journey? 00:06:20.000 --> 00:09:44.000 She is not a storyteller the way that my dad is. My dad likes telling stories and when we were young like, you know, elementary school age before middle school, he would tell us stories about growing up and his childhood. And so, I always felt like I knew more about my dad. And then my mom kind of thinks— It’s interesting, because maybe the past few years, I started calling my mom almost every morning on my way to work or on my way home from work to talk to her. And then she would tell me stories like that, which is why I think she told me about like why her family left the north. Because she will start like reminiscing. But before that if we were talking and I–my brother and I would ask a question, she’s like “I don’t really remember a lot” or something or say something like that which is why I thought she didn’t have a lot of stories. But she obviously does. Like when she gets into the—when something sparks her memory, she’ll think and talk about it at length. But when you ask her like a more general question, maybe, she’ll have more trouble just thinking of a memory. But then lately she’ll–she’ll talk more about the day that she left and she’ll— Two of the things she always mentions about leaving Vietnam is how it’s related to food. Like her cousin had really severe asthma. And then she’ll say, “It was miraculous. Like the soldiers gave us a can of tuna and he ate it. And then his asthma was gone!” And–or something like that. And then also she said that when they first came to America, they were handing out donuts and she didn’t know—or they were handing out these baked goods, which were donuts. But she didn’t know what they were. And then she asked like “What are these?” Because they were amazing. And she learned about donuts and I was like “That makes so much sense.” She only told us that memory in the past few years. So, it makes so much sense now to me why she loves donuts so much. Like she’s so–she’s so like passionate about Krispy Kreme donuts and like she’ll buy a dozen or half dozen donuts and she’s the type of person who’ll only eat like this much of the donut (indicates a small pinch with her right hand) and she’ll cut a little slice (indicates cutting slices with her hand) off of a donut and eat it throughout the day. (both laugh) But, yeah, she does have like stories like that. But I’ve only started to learn more about those stories that she has because of the—I don’t know—just the way she is about sharing and memory, I think. 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:51.000 So, why do you think she’s recently started opening up about her background and her–her life? 00:09:51.000 --> 00:11:15.000 I think part of it is like for a while it would take me like forty minutes to drive home from work when I was commuting to New York, like the forty minute, thirty minutes to get home from the train station. And then now I have like about forty minutes of driving and walking to work and that’s a lot of time. And–and she will sometimes just talk. And also, I think being older now we’re at a different place in our relationship, as well. I had to—Someone asked me like what my relationship was like with my mother growing up and I was—I thought that was an interesting question. Because it’s like she was my mom, but we didn’t share things with each other like thoughts and feelings. (laughs). But I don’t know how it’s different now, like how–how and why that changes as you get older. I’m still thinking about that. 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:28.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. And what about your dad? You said he’s kind of a storyteller. Has he said anything about his journey? 00:11:28.000 --> 00:14:04.000 He says a lot of stuff. (laughs) And I think, you know, like with a lot of things you kind of start shaping the narrative as–as you keep telling it over and over. So, even when we were young, he told us about going to Brunei and he left on a boat with a bunch of other people and how he–he had to—like, they were running out of water and food. And he jumped off the boat with two other people to swim to shore to kind of–to get help or to like see if they could land there or anchor there. And then like now that I’m saying it, like I was maybe nine or so. So, my brother would have been like six, seven. But he would tell us about how those two other people who jumped in with him probably were eaten by sharks because they were never found again, after they jumped off the ship to swim to shore and also that when he got to shore, he got really sick and was put in a jail. And like–like those were the details he told us as children. But then–then when he started writing his memoir, there were so many more details to it like that I never thought of but are, I guess, are obvious. Like how far the swim was from the boat to shore. Like he said it took him almost all day, or like all afternoon and other details like that. So, I think—So, I feel like he’s a storyteller. He likes writing and he likes writing poetry. And he’s shared it with us, and he feels comfortable sharing it—like what he’s written—with other people too. (gray cat jumps on her lap) So, I think that’s part of his personality, which is interesting. Because it’s interesting to think about what people choose to share with you or–and others. Yeah. 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:10.000 Are you and your siblings pretty receptive to what he shares? 00:14:10.000 --> 00:15:24.000 Yeah. We get really—We’re really supportive of him sharing, because like it’s part of our family history and our father’s–our dad’s story. My dad ge–or my brother, he gets very into it and he’ll ask a ton of questions. And I always think his questions are obnoxious but (laughs) it’s just like it’s because he’s like curious and he wants to connect to the person sharing in that way, which I guess I’ve just realized now, saying that out loud (laughs). But, yeah. I wish that he would—my dad—would keep writing his memoir and kind of like keep continue sharing it with us. But he also works a lot. So, sometimes his priority—or not sometimes—all the time his priority is working. 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:44.000 Yeah. Sure. Okay. Thank you. Okay, so let’s talk more about you. You were born in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Were you —Tell me about your siblings. How many of you are there? What order you were born in? 00:15:44.000 --> 00:16:39.000 I’m the oldest and then I have a younger brother. He is three years younger than me. So, after Tulsa, we moved to California. I always forget which city, but I think it’s Chino Hills or La Brea in southern California, when I was two, I guess, and then my brother came along. And we were in California for a couple more years. We moved when I was six, so when he was three. But it was nice being a big sister, I guess, (chuckles) sometimes. Yeah. 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:46.000 Why did you move from Tulsa to California? 00:16:46.000 --> 00:17:29.000 My dad, when I was still like one or two, he was study–or he was in a doctoral program studying petroleum engineering. And so he got a job after he graduated, I think. And so, he worked for Unocal at the time before—I mean, years later they merged or Chevron bought them–bought them or whatever that—however that goes. But that was the reason why we moved a lot was because of his job. 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:33.000 Okay. Is he still in that line of work today? 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:58.000 Yes. He is. He is almost, well, he should be retiring soon. But he says that every year, that he’s retiring soon. But he’s been with the same company for–since then, since–since Oklahoma or California, I guess. 00:17:58.000 --> 00:17:59.000 Oh, wow! 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:01.000 Since California. 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:41.000 Okay, that's great. Okay. So, where did you—So, I guess two questions. And you can answer them together if you want to. But after—How long did you live in California? And then also I’m curious about your–your childhood in these different places, if there was a Vietnamese community. You mentioned briefly that there was a Vietnamese community in Tulsa. But also, I wanted to hear about in California and then the other places you grew up and what your relationship–or your family’s relationship to the community was like. 00:18:41.000 --> 00:35:26.000 Yeah. I think it was in California we lived further away—I think a big part of community, at least in our family, is being close to family. Since our extended family is so large. So, in California, I remember that my grandmothers, both of them were alive while we were growing up but we never met our grandfathers. Or there was one grandfather we did meet, but—or I met—but I was too young to remember. Like family would have to visit us in California because of where we lived. I think most people lived up in San Jose or—Yeah. I think it’s mostly San Jose. We have one family member in Chino Hills and there’s like a complicated history with that, too. For me, community is really linked to family because those are the main links that we had with like the Vietnamese community rather than friends even. Even now I think my parents like a lot of their social lives revolve around family rather than like friends or the wider community. But family can be really huge since it’s like they can keep like they can keep straight in their heads all of their cousins and their cousin’s cousins and stuff like that. So, it’s always–it always feels much bigger than it sounds, I guess. And then like in California we didn’t live near family. They live in San Jose and I think that was a few hours away. But they did visit sometimes. And a lot of the time family who were still in Tulsa would visit—or not a lot of the time, but like sometimes they would visit, especially when my brother was born. My grandmothers came to visit and help out with the baby and to watch me. And–and so we were in California for only about three and a half or four years and we moved to Louisiana which feels really far away from much community. But apparently there was a Vietnamese community in the area. Because at my school—the elementary school that I went to—there was another Vo family. And they had a lot of kids and my mom always talks about how she would meet someone at school and they’d be like “Are all those kids yours?” because they also had the same last name. But like I never—They weren’t in my class. I think they were younger or older. And–and then I did have friends, but there’s like one or two friends who I played with on the playground. And I went to someone’s house like once or twice. But I feel like growing up we were always very, I don’t want to say insular, but we were always like very centered in our family, our immediate family and our extended family. I had cousins who were around my age, like the same age as me or like between one and three or–one and three years younger or so. And they would visit a lot too. So, we had a few family vacations where they’d drive from Dallas because by that time, when I was like six, people started moving down from Tulsa to Dallas in like the suburbs around Dallas. And so like the–the cousins on my mom’s side of the family were closer in age to me. The oldest cousin was maybe five years older than me. Whereas on my dad’s side, he was the youngest of like nine or ten kids. So, the oldest cousin on that side was like only eight or ten years younger than my dad, (chuckles) so a lot older than me. So, we were always—my brother and I were always closer with my maternal cousins. And I was trying to say that we sometimes went on summer vacation like–like long road trips to Alabama to the beach. And we did that a couple times. So, I think then when we moved overseas it was a lot harder to have community like in the way that we did with our families. We would see our relatives every summer and like spend two or almost three months with them. So, they were still a big part of our lives but for the rest of the year, it’s like very different. So, we first moved to Indonesia when I was nine and since my dad worked and works for a petroleum engineering–or like in the petroleum industry, a lot of people are very conservative and white and Republican and Christian. So, the first place we moved to was also really small and the majority of the expat community was that type of person—so, like everyone in my class and the classes were very small. There was like one year where the eighth-grade class was only three students. And then after eighth grade, you had either move or send your kids to boarding school in Singapore. And that was why we moved when I was in eighth grade, because my parents didn’t want me to go to boarding school and be on my own, which I am grateful for. But that was a very difficult move. But I feel like there was no community in–in Indonesia. I did have friends that I saw, and I went to their houses. But I think it’s–I always think it’s interesting how— (camera freezes) Um, so in Indonesia, I think since we didn’t have community in that way, I think that was why my parents were looking for Buddhist temple for us to go to which I think was really interesting because that was the only place that we lived where they did that. And I feel like that’s part of–that must have been part of them seeking to find connection in some way. So, Indonesia is like a predominantly Muslim country, but there’s like a small ethnic minority of Chinese Buddhists. And so, we did find a temple and we went there several times. And I remember we tried one place first. And these experiences were really strange as a little kid. Because like you go somewhere and you’re like “I don’t know what’s happening.” And then also like with these kind of religious things, my parents didn’t really explain them to me. They were just like “We’re doing this,” and no reason why or like they tell–tell me to hold the incense and pray or whatever. But then I didn’t know what praying was, kind of, like just think of things that I want. (laughs) But like at the time, especially when I was like eleven and twelve, I would start praying a lot. This is—I’ve got kind of getting off track a little. But like it’d be very concerning to me to like pray for the health and safety of my family. But anyway, I think that was why we started going to temple was to find some kind of connection to some part of our culture in a–in a different country and in a different country among so many like white Christians. And when we moved again, it was to Bangkok, Thailand although we lived in like a suburb which was another ex–expat community. And there were lots of different types of people because it was a much bigger place. Like I mentioned the other—and Indonesia is very, very small. And so, moving to Bangkok is like the school was a lot bigger. The community was a lot bigger and the people who lived in the community weren’t just people who had kids going to the school there. And there were more—I guess that was the same with the oth–with living in Indonesia but you don’t—I don’t know. Anyway, it was a lot bigger, and Thailand is a Buddhist country. So, like there were more opportunities to kind of connect to like broadly Southeast Asian culture. And we also didn’t go to temple anymore (laughs) which is really interesting. I don’t—I think when my dad did work with people who were Vietnamese, he would always invite them over for dinner and stuff like that. But then that didn’t happen too often. But also living in Thailand, we were a lot closer to Vietnam and Bangkok is a more attractive destination to visit. So, like we still had family who were in, I guess, Hồ Chí Minh City (Ho Chi Minh City). And we were able to—First we went to see them. So, like soon after we moved to Thailand, we went to see them. So, I think that’s where the–the lines of like community intersecting with family were being like—family being a big part of community comes back again. And then they also came to visit us in Thailand. Yeah. I think—And then for myself like I’ve only been more interested in reconnecting with my Vietnamese-ness, I guess. Especially now that I’m like in the northeast where it feels like there aren’t a lot of Vietnamese people. So, like I joined an employee—like a staff group, I guess, at work. They have like different—They’re kind of identity based because there’s like a women’s—they call them ERGs, which are Employee Resource Groups. There’s like a women’s group and an LGBTQIA group. And then there’s a south Asian, I think, and a Princetonians of color group and there’s also an Asian staff group. So, I joined them and like I recently organized a tour of the library and special collections. And I got to meet some other people who are Vietnamese which was really exciting and like learning about—like one of them grew up in New Jersey. So, I was like fascinated by that. (laughs) And it does sound like a lot of the time like the communities kind of center around a church or something. And then it sounds like they’re not like in my immediate area. There’s like different little communities in other areas around New Jersey. And I know there’s like a big—there’s kind of like a little Saigon in Philadelphia. And when my parents came to visit us one time, we went to visit Philly and go there. But I haven’t been back. Philadelphia is like an hour and fifteen minutes from where I am. So, it’s not a short drive. Yeah. But I feel like building and finding community is really hard when it’s not—I don’t know. Like if I were—Like my brother lives in Los Angeles. Like he could just go to like different parts of Los Angeles to find like cultural or community activities to join. But I feel like it’s not quite the same as when we were in Indonesia and like were really isolated and felt really different. But it’s still kind of close. (chuckles) Yeah. And it’s also weird being an expat in anoth–in an overseas country when you’re an American. And then you’re in an Asian country as an Asian person or—and people don’t get that. They like–they think you’re either like from, you say—If you say you’re—I remember like when I moved–first moved to Thailand, I–we had to introduce ourselves. And I said I was American. And then someone was like retorted and said I wasn’t because, you know, I’m not white. And like—so, that experience is really interesting, too, because people who are Thai think that I’m Japanese or Chinese or something else that I’m not. And then, you know, other people think I’m Thai or like if I tell someone I grew up in Thailand, they’ll think I’m Thai and stuff like that. So, it’s really weird. 00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:38.000 Mmm. That is–yeah–that’s a weird experience that I think a lot of people like us can relate to but that needs to be spoken about more. So, I’m glad you brought that up. 00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:39.000 Yeah. 00:35:39.000 --> 00:36:44.000 So, you said that you’re–you’re like–you’re getting in touch with your Vietnamese-ness, and I like the way you put that. How did you feel as a kid–as a kid like in all these different places. Like how did you–how did you identify yourself then? Like, you know, whether consciously or not. Like what did you perceive yourself as? And how–and related to that, I’m more interested in how you thought about your own identity? But I’m also curious about if your parents, intentionally or not, kind of tried to sway your identity one way or the other. Like how much did they try to hold on to–hold on to this heritage? And–and in what specific ways if I can ask? Like I guess obvious examples would be like, you know, taking you to the temple and praying. But–but what other ways did they–did they hold on to identity? And then in what ways did they just kind of like “eh,” like let you be American so to speak. (Vo laughs) 00:36:44.000 --> 00:38:41.000 Yeah. That’s a really good question. And I don’t even know if I remember like what I thought of myself as. I really do think, though—Because like it was a while ago, and I’m guessing that because I introduced myself as being American (chuckles) like that’s what I kind of thought of myself as. And I do also remember like other Asian students who were at the international school with me asking like what ethnicity I was. And like then I would say I was Vietnamese, but I think it’s weird living overseas because your nationality kind of matters, I guess in a weird way, like legally as well. But like how you can connect to other people because of what–whatever shared cultural touchpoints there are. Because I went to a school, and I didn’t realize this until later. But because, um, but because my dad’s company paid for us, paid for our tuition and a lot of other American kids’ dads or moms or guardians or whatever, like their jobs would pay for tuition too. Tuition was really high so like a lot of the Thai kids who went to school with us were really wealthy. And like I think that was a really—now I’m getting off topic again because (chuckles and twirls her right pointer finger in the air) — 00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:43.000 That’s okay. That’s all right. 00:38:43.000 --> 00:41:48.000 So, going back though is like I think I really thought of myself as American because we kind of—at least at that school, like the cliques and the groups of the way that kids kind of group each other is mostly by nationality and language. So, there were always a lot of–there were–there’s like the Japanese kids, the Taiwanese kids, the Indian kids, and like–and then the American kids which also included Canadian, Australian, and New Zealand and British kids. So, it was like that was a weird mix because I feel like things, you know, like nationality and language have some sep–like some ways that they intersect in interesting ways, I guess. But then, um, but then like my mom still today would be like she used the word American as an interchangeable word with white. Like she’ll say, “They’re American.” But she actually means they’re white because, you know, we’re also American but when we lived overseas it was like that was–she would–we would identify as being Americans, I guess. It’s very weird like how it changed from the context of where we were. And I think that the only thing that was really Vietnamese about us was like the food that we ate, because at home my parents didn’t make us speak Vietnamese or like they didn’t punish us if we only spoke English. Because we would only respond in English. So, I think they gave up on that. But they still, you know, would use a mix of English and Vietnamese with us. And I think that, yeah, I don’t want to just think of identity as just being language and food and religion. But those are the big things that I think about, I think, when I think of my identity. And I know there all the–a lot of others, little things as well that show up in other, more subtle ways, I guess. But those are the big things that—the bigger, obvious things that I can think of. 00:41:48.000 --> 00:42:17.000 Okay. Okay. (Vo laughs) Thank you for that. Tell us—So, you mentioned food. Tell me what mealtimes were like in your family. Like who did the–the cooking and the cleaning and were your parents or your mom—Well, I don’t want to assume anything but were your parents (Vo laughs) like open to different types of food? Yeah. What do you think of when you think about your childhood and eating? 00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:49.000 I think I was really lucky (chuckles) because like my mom was the cook in the family. So, after my dad finished his Ph.D., my mom stopped working. She used to be an accountant and supported the family and supported my dad through school. But then he got a full-time job and that became like he became the primary—what’s the word—the primary— 00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:50.000 Breadwinner? 00:42:50.000 --> 00:44:12.000 Yeah. (chuckles) And so she spent a lot of time cooking for us. And I feel really lucky because like I definitely couldn’t like make the kind of meals that she did. Because like she always had two or three dishes at the table even if—and then she’ll, you know, like talking to her now, she’ll say like “It’s really easy to just, you know, sauté some vegetables with—and then focus on a bigger dish.” But like that’s a lot of time. And she had like a repertoire of foods that she’d always make but then like she always like try–she still likes trying to make new dishes and lately she’s—well, not lately but like over the past five or so years, my parents have both been really into the k-dramas. So, like she’s been cooking a lot of, and trying out a lot of Korean dishes. And like before that she tried out a lot of Japanese dishes because she loves watching cooking shows on NHK (Japan Broadcasting Corporation) and stuff like that. And even— 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:14.000 What’s NHK? 00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:22.000 It’s—I don’t know what it stands for but it’s like the Japanese channel on TV. 00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:23.000 Oh. 00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:43.000 And they have like an English language version, so like an international version as well. And that plays in the U.S. too. But I think like in Japan like NHK is the big broadcasting corporation. 00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:45.000 Okay. 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:49.000 I guess it maybe, maybe analogous to like the BBC or something. 00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:49.000 Okay. 00:44:49.000 --> 00:47:24.000 I don’t know. Yeah. But they played that on US t–US television and my mom likes the cooking shows. And I think she–she definitely likes more east Asian and southeast Asian cuisine. But she’s also tried cooking like Italian food and other like “American” foods. I remember this chick–this really gross chicken salad she tried making that had like potato chips on it. I think that’s the only thing that she ever made that I really didn’t like that she tried making. But yeah, she’s always—And like that’s the way that she–that’s her–that’s the way she shows her care. And even not just for her family but like for guests and stuff. Like the way that she puts so much care and attention to her cooking and meal planning, I feel like has really affected how I also, you know, show care to people now too. Because she really goes all out! (chuckles) Like during visits not even like several days of visiting but even just like one meal visit, she’ll cook a lot of food. And mealtimes were—I really liked the meals that I grew up having with my family. Because we’d like all sit down and there would be several dishes to eat and it would always be delicious. (chuckles) Yeah. My brother was a picky eater growing up but I don’t remember him being picky at home, just at restaurants. When we’d go to a restaurant, we’d have to stop at a fast-food chain if there was one and get him French fries and chicken nuggets or whatever. But I don’t remember that being an issue at home. So, I–my mom knew how to cook for a picky eater. (laughs) 00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:27.000 That’s awesome. It sounds like she’s an amazing cook. 00:47:27.000 --> 00:48:21.000 She is! Like it’s funny because of the way she is when you want—And because her food is so good, we’ll want to learn how to cook from her. But her impulse is just to make it without showing you how to. My brother always tells the story now about how his–his partner wanted to learn how to make chả giò (cha gio, egg rolls) and–but then she got home late from work. And when they got—And my mom was—But first like she wanted to learn how to make it and my mom said she would show Shannon how to make it. But then when Shannon got home from work, my mom already made them, because she (laughs) because, I don’t know. 00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:28.000 Yeah. It’s sounds like your mom is similar to my mom, and I would describe my mom as maybe impatient? 00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:58.000 Yeah. Maybe that’s the—She is impatient. And also, I think she would dismiss any like, any—not criticism but like if–but when Shannon came home and was like “Oh, I wanted to learn how to make this with you.” I think my mom would be like “You’re coming home so late. You’re tired. So, I made them.” Like, “I did it for you!” (both laugh) 00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:09.000 That's nice. What’s your favorite thing that your mom makes? Like if you were having a birthday dinner, and she was like “I’ll make you whatever you want.” What would you ask for? 00:49:09.000 --> 00:50:10.000 Every time I go home, I ask for bún riêu (bun rieu) because my mom’s bun rieu is really good. I tried making it once and I think I even–she even—So, she loves cooking and I guess she loves me so much that I’ll ask for a modified recipe, and she’ll write one for me. I know a lot of people —like I feel like a lot of people with, you know, immigrant parents who cook will like–they’ll–their response is like “There’s no recipe. I just use my, you know, my intuition.” But my mom—maybe it’s my luck that she also likes recording things. So, she also has like written up almost or like the majority of her recipes or like the ones that we really like. 00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:12.000 Wow! 00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:35.000 Yeah. And this was like early 2000 so there was a lot of clip art in the Word documents. And she printed them out and put them in books or binders for us. But like when I wanted a vegetarian version of bun rieu she wrote one for me. (laughs) 00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:36.000 Oh! 00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:38.000 Yeah. 00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:42.000 That’s amazing! I’ve never heard of that from an Asian mother. (laughs) So, you are— 00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:43.000 I know! 00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:45.000 —really lucky! 00:50:45.000 --> 00:51:47.000 Yeah. She—I feel like that and also like she loves taking photos and for a long time she–and still now, she like has a bunch of photo albums. And like she’s still working through them because, you know, now we take photos like–like it’s nothing. (laughs) So, I think that–that’s slowed her down a lot because now she takes so many pictures. But yeah. I would say that’s my favorite dish. I know that when I was younger, chicken curry was my favorite because my family would tease me a lot about how I would lick the bowl clean because I loved it so much. (laughs) But it’s really hard to pick one dish because she’s really great at cooking. 00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:54.000 Mmm. That’s cool. Yeah. Curry is my favorite Vietnamese thing. But only the way my mom makes it. So— 00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:00.000 Yeah. Yeah! (laughs) 00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:24.000 So, you mentioned—I guess I want to back track again. You mentioned briefly about your grandparents. Can you tell me more about them and anything that you know about them and where they lived during your life? And how often you–you saw them? I think you said you didn’t really see them. But anything you wanted to add about them? 00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:31.000 Yeah. I did see my grandmothers every summer when we visited the United States. 00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:34.000 Where did they live? 00:52:34.000 --> 00:58:10.000 For the two—Um, my bà ngoại (ba ngoai, maternal grandmother) lived in Tulsa. She lived with her son and her daughter. And then my bà nội (ba noi, paternal grandmother) lived in Dallas or like around Dallas. And she lived with one of my aunts. I don’t remember which number she is. My dad has a lot of sisters. He has two brothers. That’s easy to remember. And then the rest are sisters. And I re–never met my grandfathers. One of–My dad’s dad, my ông nội (ong noi, paternal grandfather), lived–or never got to leave Vietnam. He died in Vietnam. And my dad has talked about like how the last time he saw him was like before he left Vietnam. So, that was—I think there’s—Well, I can’t speak to that, how my dad feels about that. I think he feels, you know, sad about it. And he’s written a poem about it. (laughs) So, I feel like there’s some kind of–there’s a little resolution there because he’s able to talk about it. But, you know, it’s like a–a–I wouldn’t call it a regret, but like a weight maybe. And my–my ông ngoại (ong ngoai, maternal grandfather), I think he was in California and that’s where he’s–he was–I don’t know. I think he was cremated and he’s in Tulsa, though. I don’t remember the timeline or what happened with him. But he did make it to America for a little while. I think he might have died in ’90 or something. And then–But then my grandmothers, they–they lived until 2013, I think. They actually died a week apart and I was in grad school at the time. Like one grandmother was 90 or 91, my–my ba noi. And then ba ngoai was in her late 80s. It’s kind of crazy how they both passed around the same time. So, I think what my paren—My parents do đám giỗ (dam gio, death anniversary) every year for them, and also my uncle who passed, and also my grandfathers. So, I do–we do think about them a lot or continue to. But I do know that my ba noi was in—I think she was born—if she was 90, then she was like born in the ‘20s. And my dad had once or twice mentioned that she lived in, during, you know, like the Japanese occupation. So, she—But she never—And I was never really able to talk to either of my grandmothers. Because my Vietnamese is really bad (laughs). I’m able to understand basic things that they would say to me, but then more complicated things were difficult. And I think it was—Since they did live until their–until 2013, that was when I started to be more interested in my cultural heritage. And I tried learning Vietnamese on my own. And that’s been a struggle. (laughs) But like in their last year or so, I wrote them letters in Vietnamese, and I feel glad that I was able to connect with them in that way before they were gone. Because I wasn’t really able to, you know, before that. And I feel like as kids I took them for–as a kid, I took them for granted. They were just always around. They didn’t really do a lot. At least my ba ngoai didn’t do a lot. I think it was hard for her because she—Like ba noi had some many family members around, like her daughters, her grandchildren. And she seemed to have a more active social life. But then being in Tulsa, I think it was harder for ba ngoai to have an active social life and community. And so, she was home a lot. And–and we were home a lot too, but we were kids and just wanted to have fun doing kid stuff. Yeah. 00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:25.000 Did you ever get any kind of sense from them about–about how they felt about being in the U.S. and about leaving Vietnam? 00:58:25.000 --> 01:01:30.000 No. Not at all. (chuckles) Like–like my communication skills were really limited. And then also I, since we were only–we saw them like two, a few weeks out of the year, too. So, like that also made it harder to–to connect with them, I think. Because during the summer, it was like always so exciting to get to back to the States and see my cousins who I was really close to. And so, my—And also like when we were in Indonesia, there weren’t—the only fast-food place was a KFC in the city. And like we’d be so excited to eat junk food and like do American type things, like go to the movies and watch TV, that it was never important to me. And I regret that like now. To talk to them or try to talk to them. So, most of our conversations were like about eating, like “Did you have lunch yet?” And it’s funny how my ba ngoai would–we would have like junk food for lunch and then she’d ask if we ate, and we’d say we’d had Wendy’s or something. And she’d say “That’s not really lunch. You have to have like a meal with rice to like, you know—” (chuckles) So, like conversations are limited to food and like I think that’s part of like how food is such a big part of being Vietnamese. Because like there’s so many conversations and like questions about food. (laughs) Like “did you eat yet?” and then like comments about food and how much you’re eating, and what you look like— (laughs) and stuff like that. But yeah. Yeah, my Vietnamese was very bad, and I think that part of it was because we lived away from our relatives and from community. And I think maybe my other–my other relatives thought that we weren’t as Vietnamese for not being able to speak Vietnamese. I think a lot of people like have that experience among their family members. (laughs) 01:01:30.000 --> 01:02:03.000 Yeah. Did your—I have so many, full of questions related to what you just said (both are laughing) so I’m trying to pick one. So, do you feel like your–your Vietnamese language ability—Or how does your–how does your level of language ability affect your interactions with other Vietnamese people, whether they’re Vietnamese American like us or like people like from Vietnam? Like how–how does that play into how you perceive yourself and how you think they perceive you? 01:02:03.000 --> 01:04:05.000 Yeah. That’s a really big question. (Both chuckle) I talked to someone recently who was saying that she grew up in Vietnam until she was like ten and then came to the United States. And so, Eng–English is her second language but being an adult now like I’m guessing in her forties or—that she’s lost a lot of that Vietnamese language. And I felt a lot of like regret from her about that because I think it’s such an integral part of being, you know, of saying that you’re from somewhere or that you’re from some part of some culture. And people make a big deal out of it, too. Like–like my cousins who are definitely like fluent or more fluent than I am and like they’ll always tease me about it. And then–and then I join in sometimes too, because my brother’s Vietnamese is worse now, about like, you know, pronunciation and stuff. And I feel like, I don’t know. It’s not cool. (laughs) Like I know that I join in on it sometimes too but like language isn’t part of—it’s only a little part of it, I guess, of who you are. And, um, I forgot the rest of your question. 01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:20.000 Oh, that’s okay. It was a long question. It was just related to language and how people see you and how you see yourself. And then also how it affects your interactions with other Vietnamese people. 01:04:20.000 --> 01:06:52.000 Right. There was a day recently where I met Vietnamese people in the area. It was that work event. And we were talking because there was another Vietnamese person there. And we were talking about surnames. And I said my surname, but I said it the American way. And he corrected me. (laughs) And so like–like it’s funny but it’s also like–it also feels another way. Like, I don’t know. Maybe I haven’t–I’m still struggling with that question. I think it’s something that may never be resolved. Because I feel like I’ve lost a lot from not having that language. And I feel like it probably was my first language, you know, before I went to school. And then like even my cousin who is only three months older than me, when she started school, she had to be in an ESL program, because they only spoke Vietnamese at home. And I feel like, yeah, I don’t know. I feel like I’ve lost a lot by losing my language. And I think that’s why that other person I met feels that way too. Like you lose something from losing language. And it makes me feel a little emotional. Yeah. Like even though I’ve never been fluent except, you know, at a toddler age fluency (laughs) it still feels like a loss and—Because you—like I mentioned, I never was able to have conversations with my elders, my grandmothers. And I think that’s—And like that’s something you can never get back. 01:06:52.000 --> 01:07:04.000 Yeah. Thank you for answering. And even though it was emotional, I appreciate that. It’s something I think about a lot, so I felt like I had to ask you. 01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:07.000 Yeah. 01:07:07.000 --> 01:07:35.000 Okay. Let me just ask one more question, since I think we’ve been talking for a while. I say that and I–I’m trying to choose a question (laughs) because I just–I still have so many. I’m sorry. We’ll have to cut this part. (Both laugh) 01:07:35.000 --> 01:07:39.000 Okay. 01:07:39.000 --> 01:07:56.000 Do you–Do your–Did your parents ever talk to you about what it means to be a Vietnamese person? 01:07:56.000 --> 01:10:52.000 Not really. Like not directly. A lot of what they taught me about it is like–it’s like how I mentioned we’d go to temple or like go to some kind of ceremony and they’d tell me what to do, but not explain it. (chuckles) I feel like the explanation part would really fill out what it is to be Vietnamese. But at the same time, you don’t really need it, I guess, because I don’t know. Like even not knowing what it is that I’m doing (laughs) or understanding why it is I do things, it’s like coming from them and it’s coming from like generations of people before them. So, it feels Vietnamese. (laughs) Like they’ve never—I guess I’ve had some moments, not with them, but like with other relatives who–who going back to the language thing like I think like because there were times because they didn’t have—or didn’t know words or didn’t know how to say something, they’d ask me like—Or maybe even with food, I don’t know. Like little things. They’d ask me if I—like how American I was versus how Vietnamese I was. And that’s like—But that was never something my parents would say. So, I feel like their instruction (laughs) has been very indirect. And I feel like–I feel like I’m the type of person that, with a lot of things, I feel like I’ve missed things when people are indirect. Like I feel so complicated when someone says or does something and they have layers of intention behind that, and then I didn’t–I don’t think about it. And I didn’t realize like that’s what they meant. But I hope that like in some subconscious way (chuckles) I–I know that’s what they meant by, I don’t know, not sure if that makes sense. 01:10:52.000 --> 01:11:10.000 Do you mean that like when people are indirect about their intentions when they’re communicating them? That’s–that’s related to being Vietnamese. (Vo laughs) Because we just–we just do things because it’s traditional. Like is that possibly where you were going? 01:11:10.000 --> 01:13:18.000 That’s part of it. I guess part of what I’m thinking is like in social interactions my mom will sometimes explain why or why not she will say or not say something to someone else. And I feel like seeing the level of nuance in like that type of communication, I’m like—It makes me feel like being indirect and like implying something. Like that mode of communication is a little Vietnamese, maybe. But–and that’s why I’ve never really received like a direct like “This is what it means to be Vietnamese. Like we do things this way.” But also, I wonder like how much of it is just like individual quirks. Because my cousin says Vietnamese people are always late. But my parents are always early. (chuckles) So, I thought like being early was being Vietnamese. (laughs) But–but that might just be my parents who are very on time and like my dad will be ready to go something thirty minutes early. And I think that’s his anxiety. (laughs) Yeah. That’s what I mean. Like you get hints like that. But sometimes it’s hard to know. Like what it means or like yeah. I don’t know if that makes sense. 01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:45.000 Yeah. I–Well I mean it was a complicated question and it’s not something that’s easily defined, I don’t think, by anybody. So, I appreciate your thoughts on it. So, thank you. Okay. So, let’s wrap up this conversation and then in our next conversations we’ll talk more about–we’ll continue to talk about community and identity but also about your adulthood. (Both laugh) 01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:47.000 Okay. 01:13:47.000 --> 01:13:48.000 Okay. 01:13:48.000 --> 01:13:49.000 Well, thank you, Jenn. 01:13:49.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Yeah. Thanks Amy. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder.&#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials.&#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=VoAmy_HoJennifer_2022-11-10.xml VoAmy_HoJennifer_2022-11-10.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vo, Amy. Interview November 10, 2022. Description An account of the resource Amy Vo is an archivist in New Jersey. In this interview, she shares her experiences growing up in cities and countries around the world and her experiences being the only Vietnamese American person in these places. She also reflects on her heritage and what it means to be in community with other Vietnamese people. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-108 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-10 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Amy Vo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer H Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Immigration; Ethnic identity Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Indonesia; Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam); Vinh Long (Province); Hanoi (Vietnam); Saigon (Vietnam) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright.</a> Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees