20 10 208 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Albert F. Toro OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Veteran United States Army;Vietnam;Chilean American Veterans;Sergeant OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Toro, Albert F. Interview November 15th, 2024 SC027-073 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran United States Army ; Vietnam ; Chilean American Veterans ; Sergeant Albert F. Toro Jason Beyer Moving Image ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/149798808a6a331fca4bb254ae05fe7e.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 62 Military Background and Upbringing Albert F. Toro served in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War and attained his highest rank of E5 Sergeant. He was born in Santiago, Chile in 1942. U.S. Army ; E5 Sergeant ; Vietnam War ; Santiago (Chile) ; junior college ; draft ; conscription 0 113 Military Conscription Toro was working and attending junior college when he received notice to register for military service. He was presented with the choice to either serve or leave the country. Toro wanted to finish college and build a life for himself in the United States, so he was drafted into the U.S. Army. Around 1967, he was inducted into the Armed Services without the opportunity to defer. U.S. Army ; draft ; conscription ; Vietnam War ; Armed Forces ; college ; deferment ; register ; induction ; physical ; Federal Bureau of Investigation ; U.S. Air Force ; high school 0 340 Military Training and Promotions Toro trained as infantry at Fort Ord. Frequent rain and long walks made training physically challenging. He received on-the-job training as a supplier while in advanced individual training. He recalls how his battalion commander, Captain Cunning, was a kind man who mentored him. Toro became an armorer and was awarded for his outstanding service. infantry ; rain ; meningitis ; battalion ; barracks ; base camp ; training ; post exchange ; platoon ; advanced individual training ; basic training ; on-the-job training ; supplier ; Captain Cunning ; commander ; officer ; armorer ; M14 rifle ; M16 rifle ; Military Operational Standard ; corporal ; sergeant ; Private First Class ; Fort Ord (Calif.) ; Highway 1 (Calif.) ; Monterey Peninsula (Calif.) 0 642 Adapting to the Military Lifestyle Toro describes how difficult it was to sacrifice his independence as he adapted to the military lifestyle. Additionally, it was difficult to become independent again after years of depending on others in the service. military lifestyle ; draft ; Vietnam ; civilian ; Armed Forces ; U.S. Army 0 752 Interactions with People During Stateside Service After his on-the-job-training, Toro became permanent cadre and stayed in Fort Ord for another year, working for the training unit that he was assigned to. Toro describes the camaraderie among cadre at Fort Ord as some of his favorite experiences during stateside military service. on-the-job training ; cadre ; camaraderie ; sergeant ; lieutenant ; Vietnam ; Fort Ord (Calif.) 0 828 Deployment to Vietnam In January of 1968, Toro was deployed to Tan Son Nhut, located near Saigon, Vietnam. He remembers the gigantic base camp, its large barracks, and the mosquito nets that surrounded the buildings. Toro recalls being attacked on his first night in Vietnam, hiding in a concrete bunker. Tan Son Nhut (Vietnam) ; Saigon (Vietnam) ; Expiration Term of Service ; Vietnam ; Vietnam ; base camp ; Armed Forces ; Bearcat ; mosquitoes ; culvert 0 967 Interactions with Local Cultures and People in Vietnam The only frequent interactions Toro had with local Vietnamese people were the kitchen police who served food for American armed forces. After his time at Tan Son Nhut, Toro served for six months at Củ Chi Base Camp as part of the supply unit providing food, weapons, and equipment to the field. kitchen police ; Vietnam ; Củ Chi (Vietnam) ; Saigon (Vietnam) ; 25th Infantry Division ; Viet Cong ; artillery supply ; supplier ; artillery unit ; supply unit ; battery ; service ; sorties ; base camp ; battalion 0 1105 Sleeping Arrangements in Vietnam Toro describes sleeping arrangements in Vietnam and his experience repairing a flooded hooch during a storm. sleeping arrangements ; Củ Chi (Vietnam) ; storm ; hooch ; post exchange 0 1161 Experiences with Wild Animals in Vietnam Fumigation, traps, and mosquito nets helped prevent any negative experiences Toro had with wild animals. However, heavy rain would cause problems for housing. wild animals ; viper ; fumigation ; rats ; mosquito nets ; tents ; rain ; Vietnam 0 1252 Supplying Artillery Units in Vietnam As a Supply NCO, Toro supplied artillery units in combat zones with ammunition and food. combat ; combat service ; combat service support ; supply ; artillery ; ammunition ; food ; battalion ; clerics ; ammo dump ; Howitzers ; sorties ; convoys ; Củ Chi (Vietnam) ; Supply NCO ; Non-Commissioned Officer 0 1347 Recreation in Vietnam Although Toro says there were “no weekends” in Vietnam, he does describe moments of respite, including barbecues and film nights. recreation ; Vietnam ; war ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; barbecue ; cooking ; conexes ; projector ; movies ; The Green Berets ; John Wayne 0 1431 Stories of Camaraderie and Supplying Artillery in Vietnam Toro was mentored by Sergeant Johnson, who took him under his wing as a clerk. While in Cần Thơ as part of his ammunition supply work, he would make trips to get ammunition from the South Vietnamese army. Toro recalls humorous interactions with the South Vietnamese army, specifically what he had to do in order to receive the ammunition. Toro was grateful to supply ammunition because it kept him from being sent to the field. However, he does recall the fear of landmines and seeing exploded civilian buses. Sergeant ; Chile ; Armed Forces ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; ammunition ; clerk ; Vietnamese ; English ; Howitzers ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; South Vietnam ; Mekong Delta (Vietnam) ; Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) ; ammo dump ; office ; officer ; Deuce-and-a-Half (M35 2½-ton cargo truck) ; sorties ; convoys ; artillery unit ; helicopter ; roads ; landmines ; rice paddies ; buffalo ; civilians ; buses ; farmers ; Charlie Battery ; rubber plantation ; French ; base camp 0 1734 Communication with Family Since Toro made the decision to stay in the U.S. and join the military instead of returning to Chile, his family was upset. The long period of separation was especially hard on his parents. family ; friends ; communication ; parents ; Chile ; South America 0 1762 Treating Others with Respect as a Sergeant As a Sergeant, Toro wanted to treat the guard duty he was in charge of with respect. When guards were in foxholes, Toro would bring them food, help them stay awake, and try to keep them comfortable. Sergeant ; guard duty ; respect ; friend ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; platoon ; foxhole ; shelter ; airfield ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; trust 0 1838 Unusual Event Experienced in Vietnam Toro tells a story about guarding an airfield in Cần Thơ. A soldier reported from a 30-foot tall tower that he was afraid, and Toro went to support him. Rain was flooding the area. Toro almost got washed off into barbed wire and nearly lost his weapon. By the time he reached the top of the tower, Toro and the guard were fired upon by snipers. The guard panicked and jumped off the tower but did not break any bones. guard ; airfield ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; Cobra helicopters ; Bell AH-1 Cobra ; jungle ; towers ; rain ; Jeep ; barbed wire ; sniper fire ; M16 ; .45 caliber handgun ; sandbags 0 1982 Sleeping in the Deuce-and-a-Half in Vietnam According to Toro, U.S. armed forces slept in tents at base camp in Cần Thơ and hoped to eventually build hooches. Heavy rains and mosquitoes made sleeping in the tents difficult. So Toro spent three months sleeping in his M35 2½-ton cargo truck, commonly referred to as a Deuce-and-a-Half. Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; Mekong Delta (Vietnam) ; Deuce-and-a-Half (M35 2½-ton cargo truck) ; hooch ; mosquito nets ; mosquitoes ; sleeping arrangements 0 2097 End of Military Service Before ending his service, Toro had “two weeks off” on guard duty in Cần Thơ. He recalls spending most of the day in base camp, occasionally visiting an enlisted club that served food. He avoided leaving base camp or exposing himself too much because he wanted to make it back home alive. guard duty ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; U.S. Armed Forces ; enlisted club ; Saigon (Vietnam) ; base camp 0 2218 Returning to the U.S., Visiting Family in Chile, and Readjusting to Civilian Life Toro returned to the U.S. in the San Francisco bay area. He then spent months in Chile with his family before returning back to Los Angeles. Using the G.I. Bill, he was able to complete college and start his career in the aerospace industry in defense. San Francisco (Calif.) ; U.S. Air Force ; Expiration Term of Service ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; Chile ; United States ; G.I. ; college ; South America ; family ; aerospace industry ; defense industry 0 2402 Camaraderie During Service and Inability to Reconnect with Friends after Service While working at TRW in Torrance, California, he ran into a fellow Vietnam veteran. The moment was memorable because Toro had lost contact with most of his Vietnam comrades. Toro had hoped to reconnect with the fellow veteran, but the interaction was cold and brief. Despite this, he says the comradery in Vietnam was strong. Toro tells a story about he and his comrades building a makeshift bar using ammunition boxes, plywood, and plastic roofing. Vietnam ; Torrance (Calif.) ; refineries ; gas station ; TRW (Thompson Ramo Wooldridge Inc.) ; defense contracts ; mechanic ; motor pool ; Cần Thơ (Vietnam) ; Tet Offensive ; camaraderie ; ammunition ; bar ; Howitzers ; plywood ; roofing ; C-rations ; artillery 0 2603 Vietnam Veterans’ Feelings of Ostracization After Service Toro describes the feelings of ostracization he experienced in the U.S. as a Vietnam veteran. He was especially upset that the “amazing people” he served alongside were often ridiculed. Toro tells a story about a group of long range patrols who had a monkey as a guard animal. Toro says he started to feel prouder of his military service once the attitude toward Vietnam veterans changed and they were better recognized for their service. Vietnam ; ostracization ; Travis Air Force Base ; San Francisco (Calif.) ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; U.S. Army ; veterans ; infantry ; baboon ; monkey ; dog ; long-range reconnaissance patrol ; search and destroy ; Viet Cong ; the 25th Infantry division ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; My Lai ; massacre ; recognition ; baby killer 0 2907 Life Lessons from Military Service Toro says friendship was a life lesson he learned in military service. He describes how some of the less fortunate people in his training unit at Fort Ord had chosen military service as an alternative to jail. These were often teenagers. friendship ; discipline ; Fort Ord ; Category IV ; Cat 4 ; teenager ; military service ; jail teenager 0 2960 Message for Future Generations Toro says that if he learned one thing, it is that you have to survive in war. You cannot count on anyone else. survive ; survival ; risk 0 3026 Association with the San Marcos Community Toro became associated with the San Marcos community through his neighbor, Jason Beyer, the oral history interviewer. San Marcos (Calif.) ; U.S. Armed Forces ; interview 0 3051 Comradery and Recreation during Military Service Although he struggles to remember the names of friends he made, Toro reminisces on the comradery he experienced during service, including recreational activities like gambling that he chose not to participate in. basic training ; friends ; interviewer ; Fort Ord ; Vietnam ; hooch ; gambling ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; beer ; comradery ; cooks 0 3138 What More People Should Know About Veterans Toro wants more people to know about what veterans went through. He speaks about their lack of freedom, and how many people were not cut out for military service but nonetheless served. freedom ; soldier ; pacifist ; danger ; bravery ; military service 0 3235 Learning How to Become Independent After Military Service Toro describes how difficult it was to adapt to civilian life as an independent person. Since he was in his mid-twenties when he entered the military, he says that younger enlistees and conscripts would have a more difficult time readjusting than he did. independence ; dependence ; meals ; conflict ; military draft ; young people ; U.S. Armed Forces ; Expiration Term of Service 0 Oral history Albert F. Toro is a Chilean American who served in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War, reaching his highest rank of E5 Sergeant. Toro described being drafted and deployed to Vietnam. As a Supply Noncommissioned Officer (NCO), Toro provided artillery units in combat zones with ammunition and food. Toro shared his life story as both an immigrant and veteran, including the ostracization and shame many veterans experienced upon their return from Vietnam. This oral history interview explores topics such as comradery, independence, military training, mentorship, college, recreation, fear, immigration, and veteran recognition. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.785 --> 00:00:58.000 My name is Jason Victor Beyer. I'm a graduate of California State University San Marcos. Today I will be interviewing Albert F Toro. Today's date is Friday, November 15th, 2024. We are located in the Kellogg Library at CSUSM, located at 333 South Twin Oaks Valley Road, San Marcos, California 92096. My relationship to the interviewee is that we are both military veterans. The names of the people attending this interview are the interviewer, Jason Beyer, interviewee Albert F Toro, camera operator Adel Bautista, Marilyn Huerta, and Kathy Toro. The purpose of this interview is to conduct an oral history. Please state your full name—first, middle, and last name. 00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:02.865 Albert ; and middle initial, F ; and last name, Toro. 00:01:02.865 --> 00:01:04.245 The branch of service you were in? 00:01:04.245 --> 00:01:06.314 US Army. 00:01:06.314 --> 00:01:08.405 What was your highest rank attained? 00:01:08.405 --> 00:01:10.325 E5 Sergeant. 00:01:10.325 --> 00:01:12.394 And the war or conflicts you served in? 00:01:12.394 --> 00:01:14.424 The Vietnam conflict. 00:01:14.424 --> 00:01:22.135 So, I'm gonna begin by starting with your biographical details. Where were you born? 00:01:22.135 --> 00:01:26.644 I was born in Santiago, Chile in 1942. 00:01:26.644 --> 00:01:28.325 What was life like in Chile? 00:01:28.325 --> 00:01:32.405 Beautiful. I had a nice upbringing. 00:01:32.405 --> 00:01:36.000 Does your family have any past affiliations with the military? 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:39.495 No. 00:01:39.495 --> 00:01:44.034 Did you hold any jobs before you entered the military service? 00:01:44.034 --> 00:01:53.814 I was going to college at junior college, and I was drafted outta junior college. 00:01:53.814 --> 00:01:58.385 So you were drafted—could you tell me how you were drafted into the US Army? 00:01:58.385 --> 00:04:14.000 Well, at the event to come to the United States, and some of the forms that you fill out there is a little strip about an inch by 12 inches wide. And it says, "Upon the age of 18, you must register to the military service of the United States." And, so I sort of—you know—with time, I guess—I was working, going to college—and I never did have the intention not to register—that's a completely—disregard that fact. So around 1967, about—I think about three years later—I was notified a friendly with the—it was a letter in my apartment from the FBI (Federal Bureau of Investigation)—(Toro laughs)—saying that you have to register within a week. A couple weeks later—I registered—but a couple weeks later, I was called in for a physical for the—that was about—in September, I think I received the notice. And in December of 1966, I got the—I was inducted. I had a physical and I was inducted in the Armed Forces. And even though going to junior college—I guess—I didn't have the opportunity to defer. I was taking so many units and I was working at the same time. So I—at that time, I think the minimum requirement was 14 units for college, and I have 12. And, so I said—they gave me a choice, either serve or leave the country. So, you know, my ambitions were, you know, to serve—and not only that, because I wanna finish school and fill—you know, fulfill my dream to, you know, become a productive person in this country and also to be able to finish my college. So I—two years, I said, it's gonna be not too bad. And that was the way I started in the Armed Forces. I mean—I guess—the way I was drafted. Do I have to elaborate on that? 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:19.204 Did you have a choice in the branch of service that you joined? 00:04:19.204 --> 00:04:57.105 I did originally. I want to tell you something, that I heard so much about the Air Force, and I like electronics so much that I say, well, that'd be a big good a chance to—what do you call it—probably if I get drafted sometime in the future. That was my thought. So I applied to the Air Force—I remember that—but I never got a called. And they tell you, finish your high (school), finish your college, and then we'll talk. But that was kinda—I guess the Army had to step forward on me, you know, just—I got drafted and my choice—the only choice they gave me was Army. 00:04:57.105 --> 00:05:01.644 How did it make you feel that you were drafted. 00:05:01.644 --> 00:05:40.985 Because of my age, I feel a little—and also my school—I said, this is gonna have to be postponed for, you know, two years. And I wasn't that young, you know, I was 25. So I said, I'll be 27. And then when I said, probably when I come back to to school I'm gonna have to probably take again all the subjects that I was taking in college. And that happened, 'cause when I came back, I had to retake almost everything. And I lost another two years. But, you know, I don't have no regrets with—you know, I guess. 00:05:40.985 --> 00:05:47.685 For your early days of service during bootcamp, what type of training did you receive? 00:05:47.685 --> 00:06:58.235 I was infantry. So we did a lot of big walks. We did a lot of firing. A lot of, uh—what do you call—and the—Fort Ord was kind of tough because we had a lot of rain. So almost all our training was in the rain. At that time, that year it was really—it really rained the whole year long. Plus we had a meningitis issue, so our battalions—what they call, they were—we were located up in the new barracks—Fort Ord—and that was in the east side of what you call the base camp. The old barracks were right down by the Highway 1, the bottom of Monterey Peninsula. We were up on top and we were all restricted for the full training. To go to the movies, we have to go only—we were allowed to go all together—or whatever activities, PX (post exchange) and all that. We were all allowed to get as a platoon, you know, as a group. So we weren't restricted until AIT, the advanced individual training. But it was, you know, it was a lot of work (laughs). 00:06:58.235 --> 00:07:08.000 What is your most vivid memory? Both best and worst parts of your time in training and in school? 00:07:08.000 --> 00:08:26.415 On the training, the best part is when I left basic training. Basic training was, you know, it was hard. I mean, I'm 25 years old and you have a lot of young people, but I did fairly well. I could run, I could do all the stuff. And there I have some issues—you know, physical issues—but, I overcame those. And—but the most rewarding thing that I ever got—(long pause, Toro starts crying)—was in—it was in basic AIT, I had a lucky time to end up with an advance of a—I was in the on-the-job training as a supplier, and I was supposed to be in there for, I think it was about six or eight weeks—and I run into a very kind man, which was our battalion commander. He was named Captain Cunning, and he was like a father to me. And he helped me a lot with my career too. And he acknowledged my—you know—that I was capable to do the job and rewarded me with that. 00:08:26.415 --> 00:08:28.975 So he was one of your instructors? 00:08:28.975 --> 00:09:29.625 He was actually the—he was my commander. He was actually the commander because we were in an AIT unit. I was in a basic—I was in a AIT unit infantry. So we were training troops, and he was in charge of that unit, which was a platoon. It was—we have four platoons in that—I forget the name of it—I think it was "C-1-2" or something like that—that was the AIT. So we trained infantry people. They were ready to, you know, ready to go to the—and fight. So we trained—that was the last echelon on the training and forward the AIT events, individual training. So you will be preparing yourself to go to whatever the commitment was. But he was very—for being an officer for, you know, infantry—it was really a—what do you call—sort of thrown off because—so he wasn't—he was a tough man, but he was also kind. 00:09:29.625 --> 00:09:35.195 Did you qualify with any equipment such as vehicles, aircraft, radios, or weapons? 00:09:35.195 --> 00:10:10.904 Well, I became a—in fact, I became an armorer, and I got awarded for being an outstanding armorer, taking care of the weapons on the company. There were 250—I think about 250, I guess, M14s (M14 rifle)—we trained with the M14 at that time. We didn't have the M16 (M16 rifle)—I guess it was not available in the 60s. And all need time to qualify. If you qualify an inventory, that is the only time that you could touch the M16. We qualified use of the M16. 00:10:10.904 --> 00:10:13.000 Did you receive any promotions? 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:42.553 Yeah. I was promoted to E4 Sergeant. I mean, actually it was—they promoted me to it because of the—it was the infantry and by MOS, which is my Military Operational Standard—was supplied, I could not be a corporal or a sergeant. So they make me a PFC-4 (Private First Class), but they gave me an acting jack. They gave me the two stripes of a corporal for that because of the training unit. 00:10:42.553 --> 00:10:49.105 What was the hardest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to? 00:10:49.105 --> 00:11:34.784 Well being spoiled, it was tough. You know, when you—because I was already 25, so I have my ways and you're pretty—you know, kind of independent. And I never thought that I was gonna be drafted. I was more like a civilian. So it was kind of hard. I feel a little like in confinement for me, for a while. I mean, especially when I was in Vietnam, because, you know, a long time for serving and—you know, it's difficult for a person like a civilian. They all of a sudden—they throw you in that—and I've always being pretty "I want to do my things my way." So it was tough. It was tough. But I followed, you know, the suit. I didn't fight it. 00:11:34.784 --> 00:11:42.514 What was the easiest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to. 00:11:42.514 --> 00:12:32.475 I just, become a civilian later on. But you get pretty much—you know, I think it is funny that even though being 25 and having my own things as a civilian, to end up for two years in the Armed Forces—and at the end, you depend a lot. That's another thing that I forgot to tell you, that sort of, you can—you start thinking still that someone is backing you up. Because when you're in the Army, you're following. You're not making your own decisions, really. You are more a follower. So, and then it gets difficult. Yeah, I'm a civilian now, and what am I gonna do? I'm not gonna get my four square meals a day, you know? So then you start thinking, and you have to get out of the mood. But yeah. 00:12:32.475 --> 00:12:40.034 What were your interactions like with people you encountered during your stateside service? 00:12:40.034 --> 00:13:48.835 Well, the best—I think it was the—I guess, life, you know, as I became a—like I mentioned, when I was in the OJT (on-the-job training)—after my OJT, which is six weeks, I became permanent cadre. So I stayed in Fort Ord for another year, working for the—in the training unit that I was assigned to do my on-the-job training. And that's what I found—there was a lot of—you know, I think the people—I guess since you are cadre, you are in a different position than if you are a trainee. So there was a lot of camaraderie in there in the—among the—what do you call the cadre—the sergeants, the lieutenants. And there was a lot of like—you know, we could kid around. Instead of—when you're a trainee—when you're in training, you know, the officers and all that, they want some respect. So that become a little more lax. It was fun. I think I enjoyed the—Fort Ord was fun. I mean, not too much as when I—I guess when I went to Vietnam, that was a little tougher. Yeah. 00:13:48.835 --> 00:13:52.274 What war conflicts were you a part of? 00:13:52.274 --> 00:16:07.794 Well, in January of 1968, I end up in Tan Son Nhut, that is at Saigon. That was my starting at Vietnam. I forgot the term they used. I think it's ETS (Expiration Term of Service)—I think is the end of the term of service. But this is when I got—we got in Vietnam after a long trip, we end up in Tan Son Nhut, which is in Saigon, and we end up in the processing base in there. I think it's called Bearcat—I think it was called. And that's where they process all the Armed Forces. Basically it was mostly—I saw Army people. And we arrived sort of late in the evening. I don't remember having shower. I think that they took us to the barracks. I never forget that. And it was a gigantic base camp with all the—you know, these big barracks that they were two tier buildings. Usually they were made outta wood, and they get—because of mosquitoes they were surrounded by mosquito net mesh. And usually these barracks have a long haul, and they got all the bunkers, you know, lined up. You got probably here, probably downstairs, there were like 50 people. And upstairs, there was a two story. And I end up right underneath in the bottom. I don't think we have supper that night. I don't have a recall of that. But I remember one thing really clear, that that night we got hit. Badly, we got hit. And I really panic. I didn't know what to do. And we hide. I mean, I remember that we had this bunker made out of concrete, like a culvert. And I got under this place in there, and that was my first experience in Vietnam—late at nighttime. And oh my God, I said, this is gonna be tough. 00:16:07.794 --> 00:16:14.105 What were your interactions like with the local cultures and the people you encountered while you were deployed in Vietnam? 00:16:14.105 --> 00:18:25.365 The only interaction we had usually was with the KP (kitchen police) people we had, and the girls and the young men, they had, were used for—you know, they help us, you know, with serving. And they were very nice people. They enjoyed—we used to teach them a lot. They were good people. And, since we were in—there were two bases—I ended up in Vietnam where I ended up in a base camp called Củ Chi, which north of Saigon is about 50 miles, and that was the 25th Infantry Division. So we—they have no access, we can't go nowhere. There's a town in the Củ Chi, and they say it was—the Viet Cong was right in there all the time, so there was no access to it. And I end up in a supply unit. So we used to supply food and ammunition to our—I end up in an artillery unit, which—but I end up in a battery called "the service." We used to service—food, weapons and whatever require in the field. And also we used to fix all the equipment for them. But I end up in the food—I end up in supply, supplying the troops for food so everything was flown off. From Củ Chi, there was no access to the outside world by—only flying. And I guess that was my experience there, supplying the troops. We used to fly all the sorties. I never flew out of Củ Chi, but we used to provide it to the helicopters and all that. Our artillery units were in the field. And our base camp was completely sealed from—what do you call—the outside world, although the town of Củ Chi was right next door. And I've seen in pictures now of pretty—it's kind of a large town today. But that was—I guess that was my—there was no out. I mean, I was in. So all my work was—for six months I spent in there just supplying, providing food for our battalion and flying sorties out to the field. 00:18:25.365 --> 00:18:30.243 How were your sleeping arrangements like? 00:18:30.243 --> 00:19:21.025 In Củ Chi we had hooches that were built of, you know, wood, tin roof. And I never forget that we had a storm one time—I'm going to tell you about that one, and that's interesting—because we got a storm, and the roof was thin, so it got blown off. So, and then of course, we got all wet in there. So at nighttime, at my cell was a couple more troopers. We end up up on the roof nailing the tin roof to prevent the water from going inside of the—(laughs)—inside of the hooch. And the place was pretty, you know, it was nice. It was, you know—we had a PX (post exchange)—we had not that many comforts but it was also—you know, like I said, we were restricted. 00:19:21.025 --> 00:19:24.545 Did you have any problems with wild animals or anything? 00:19:24.545 --> 00:20:17.025 We had a lot of—wild animals, yes. We had some snakes in there. I think that we found some of them is supposed to be—they call a viper. They were pretty deadly. But we never encounter. I didn't never encounter, because these people used to come around and I guess they used to fumigate and make sure that we were safe. They put all kinds of—they have the trap for the rats. We have rats. So in all the corners in there, we had—(laughs)—we had rat traps for what do you call—to prevent us, you know, to be in—I guess—bothered with these little creatures. But the tents were, you know, like I I mentioned, they were all floors with hardwood, and we were surrounded by mosquito nets around the air to protect us from—mosquito was a big issue in Vietnam. Yeah. 00:20:17.025 --> 00:20:20.105 Did the rats ever get inside your tents at all? 00:20:20.105 --> 00:20:52.795 No, we were lucky. And they were usually—the tents, they were—the buildings were about a foot off the ground, so we're (unintelligible) because when it rain in there we have a foot of water outside. And it will rain, and they will rain in there, and a foot of rain was nothing in a couple hours. And after that it will dry automatically. I guess that's what Vietnam is. I guess the water gets absorbed pretty quick. So you—after the rain, looks like it never ever rained. Yeah. 00:20:52.795 --> 00:21:01.865 Were you in combat, combat support, combat service support role, or did the war zone make that designation irrelevant? 00:21:01.865 --> 00:21:58.335 No, I was in the combat zone and we were supplying our artillery units—we have Alpha, Bravo and Charlie—and that was the thing: supply ammunition, ammo, plus food in the field. At that time, when I was in Củ Chi, I didn't fly any sorties. I was mostly involved in supplying the food—supplying the food for our existing unit, and plus, they're called the battalion. We have a battalion in there with all the sort of people that provided more support on the clerical side. So we had to supply for people—a hundred people—you know, supply all the food. And also the sorties were flown out by other—and ammo was also taken by what we used to call "the ammo-dumping people" to supply Howitzers in the field. So they used to go on convoys out of Củ Chi. 00:21:58.335 --> 00:22:01.005 Where else did you serve in Vietnam? 00:22:01.005 --> 00:22:27.674 I serve as a—I was a supply NCO (Non-Commissioned Officer) for ammo. So I used to order the ammunition for the field for the Howitzers. And also I did a lot of food supply. We used to supply the food, so we had to fly sorties for food and ammo to the field. 00:22:27.674 --> 00:22:33.005 What did you do for recreation or when you were off duty? 00:22:33.005 --> 00:23:51.035 There was not too much in there because when you're in Vietnam—I guess in the war—there are no weekends. So we did seven days a week. And usually we give us—on Sundays, usually the NCOs will go and cook for us. So we have a barbecue, and they will, you know, give us—and we were lucky because we were able to absorb some t-bone steaks in there, and some good hamburgers. So the NCOs and the commanders will cook for the troops. So that was a—it was usually, typically then about 5:00 PM, so we get the rest of the evening. And occasionally we had these conexes with that—so you probably remember that—you're interviewing me, and I know you're familiar with the—conexes are these metal containers. And inside we have a projector, so sometime we used to get movies. And we got one of The Green Berets movies. And I never forget that with John Wayne. And people were laughing so much about it, because you're in a war zone and you got a green beret. Do you remember that? Probably you remember that, about John Wayne in there. And that was the funniest thing in the world, I think that hit me. Yeah. 00:23:51.035 --> 00:23:57.724 What kinds of friendships and camaraderie did you form while serving and with whom, while you were in Vietnam? 00:23:57.724 --> 00:28:54.025 I had a—I think it was Sergeant—oh my God, I can't remember his name right now, with all this. There was a sergeant in there that sort of was my protege, and he was from Idaho, I think. And he—Sergeant Johnson was one of them. Sergeant Johnson—let me go back—he was a—it's a first sergeant. He was in charge. He was pretty keen on me because of—for being, I guess—I was born in Chile, so he was kind of keen on me that he couldn't understand why I was serving in the Armed Forces. He used to tell me, "Oh I can't believe this." And the other ones—I can't remember his name, and he was the one who actually helped me a lot. He was an E6. He was an ammunition—what do you call—NCO? And he took me under his arms, and I become his clerk. So I used to run the runs for him, I used to ride on—the phone was Vietnamese, but they have a little translation in English, which it says what came of ammo we were getting for our Howitzers. So he gave me the task to run to town. This is moving to when I was in Cần Thơ—this is South Vietnam by the Mekong Delta. And he assigned me—"You're gonna write all the forms for the ammo, and you're gonna go and wait." And there were Vietnamese—we had to get from the south—from the ARVNs (Army of the Republic of Vietnam)—we have to get the ammo, believe me or not. So the ammo dump was in the charge of the South Vietnamese Army. So they used to make me wait in there. I sat in there in the office, looking at the officer. He—the only thing I have to do, sign the paper. So he made me wait in there for an hour or so until he decided to sign the paper. And I got them, and I went over there and I start—we go, you know—we went over to the ammo dump to get out ammo. But that was—every time I went over there, every time I had this, it was kind of a—how do you call them? It was kind of a thing that he had for us, that we have to wait, even though he signed the document. But he made us wait. I waited for an hour. I was—I used to smoke, but I quit smoking. Good thing I did. So I waited. I waited in there for this officer to sign the paper and let me go. And then the funny thing about this is—and then we go to the ammo dump, and the ARVNs—which is a regular Vietnamese army—they don't like us at all. So, and then we go in there and this big Deuce-and-a-Half (M35 2½-ton cargo truck) to load up the ammo. And then they used to give us challenges. They used to sort of challenge us. I mean, to get in to some kind of a scheme. It was kinda weird. It was like a—it was sort of a—what you call it—it was a ritual that we have to go through. Every time we go for ammo, we have to go through that ritual. I mean, for these people, they used to tease us. I don't think they want to fight with us, but they were teasing us—doing some karate movements and all that. It was funny. You wouldn't believe it. And that sergeant told me—disregard this, you know, I forgot the name of—I can't remember what the name is. I hope it comes. But he was great. He helped me a lot too, because he's the one that kept me from going—really—I was almost end up in the field, but he said, "I need you in here." So he kept me in the base camp. But we had to—we had to fly sorties, but we also had to go on convoys many, many times to, you know, deliver the ammo. Because all our artillery units were in the field. Some of them were way out in, you know, helicopter flight, but some other ones—the roads were really tough because they have to clear the roads because they had landmines. So we waited for all the traffic. These guys were really smart. When I was in Cần Thơ, we had to cross the river, the Mekong Delta, and go to the field that was miles away. And the roads were really—there was nobody in the road, you see? There were all the—the roads were all—they were not paved—were all like granite compacted. And we're all riding on top of rice paddies in there. And you can see the buffaloes in there, and you can see people, you know, the farmers in there, in the road. But always there was a fear of landmines. So we went over in the road when everything was clear, we thought, and we saw a lot of things in there. We saw buses with civilians, and they're blown up. And we were lucky we never got hit. So we deliver—we have batteries, you know, like—this was Charlie Battery. It was—I can't remember the name of the city that we were located. It was another city. It was rice—it was a rubber plantation. Beautiful—beautiful rubber plantation. I remember, I'll never forget, it was like the French left it in there. It was really incredible. And the roads were amazing. I mean, the roads were not amazing. It's just that the scenery around us, because we were in a base camp all the time, to go out in the field and take a risk, It was something else. I mean, sort of like, I want to get outta here, I wanna see something else. But you saw a lot of, you know, a lot of bad things in the road too. Yeah. 00:28:54.025 --> 00:29:00.605 How did you stay in touch with family and friends? Did you choose to keep communication with them while deployed? 00:29:00.605 --> 00:29:22.345 Yeah. My parents were in Chile, South America—all of them. So they really suffered from this. They weren't too appreciative, I guess, that I made the choice to, you know, stay and serve. So that was really hard for my parents—where we come from a large family, seven kids. 00:29:22.345 --> 00:29:28.244 Was there something that you did for good luck while you were in Vietnam? 00:29:28.244 --> 00:30:38.424 I tried to be good with the—oh, yeah—I always like people, you know, even though I'm not an Army type to be rough and tough. So I'm always being—what do you call that—I thought about the other people. Like, you know, I was a Sergeant in charge of a guard, and I tried to treat my, you know, my people with a lot of respect. Not treating my, you know—I never wanted to feel like I was in command. I feel more like I want to be their friend. So I used to bring them—when we were in the—we have like a guard duty. I was—because I was an NCO—I was in charge of the whole platoon that was in front on the foxholes and also in the shelters in the front of—we were guarding a big airfield in Cần Thơ. And I always brought them, you know, food, make sure they weren't sleepy at night and all that. So trying to make things easy on them. And that was the most rewarding thing to me, that they feel comfortable with me. So, they feel trusted, you know? 00:30:38.424 --> 00:30:44.845 Do you recall any particularly unusual events while you were in Vietnam? 00:30:44.845 --> 00:33:02.615 Yep. I'll never forget this one here. When I was in—we were supposed to guard an airfield in Cần Thơ. This was the landing pad. And we had all the Cobra helicopters (Bell AH-1 Cobra), so we had to protect all that area. But we were right in the front of the airfield, which was facing the jungle. And we have towers in there, and we have satellites on top—scopes. So I have a kid up there that was calling me that was scared. So, and then I went over there and it was raining. And it was raining so high that I almost got washed off. I didn't want to take the Jeep around it. So I left the Jeep. I had a Jeep, and I have all my—what do you call—black light. I mean, have all my, the lights down, you know, the—what do you call them? I forgot the name of—you keep all your lights on it on the—there's a switch, it turns the lights off, and they go into a nocturnal—what do you call—thing. So in case you cannot be seen. So I left the jeep behind, and I got in the—I started walking on it—and I almost got washed off in the perimeter in there to the barbed wire. I got up in there, and then somehow we got—started getting some sniper fire from the outside. And I had a kid on this tower—30 feet tall tower—and he—this guy jumped down and he didn't break his leg. He panic. He jumped from this tower. Would you believe that? I was scared too, because I was washed off. I almost lost my M16 because I carrying a weapon—and I carry also since Sergeant guard usually carries a .45 (.45 caliber handgun). And I said, I was glad that I made it. I mean, I just got to the barbed wire, held on until the water run—and I got up and I went and take a look at this kid that—he jumped all the way from 30 feet up, and he didn't break his legs. And I said, "Well, stay here. We're gonna stay here." And that was about the most scary thing that I ever had, you know? And this kid had jump, he panicked because they shot at him. He was shot—up in the tower. Instead of staying there—there was sandbags, but he was scared and he couldn't handle it. 00:33:02.615 --> 00:33:06.994 Could you tell me about the story of you sleeping on a truck? 00:33:06.994 --> 00:34:57.824 Well, when we got to our new base camp—from Northern Vietnam we went down to south—we end up in Cần Thơ and, we end up this—Cần Thơ was—at the airfield only, there was not pretty well established yet. So what they did—from the Mekong Delta, they used to suck up all the sand from the Mekong Delta and make a plateau. That was a basic base for the base camp—for this new landing strip. So there was absolutely nothing in there. So we end up in tents and it was raining. And the tents, you can't even walk inside because it was mud in the floor, and we have cots. So I decided to sleep in the—I slept in the in the Deuce-and-a-Half—that was my supply truck. And I spent in there three months sleeping in the truck. And I enjoyed it, because all the other people were on the—you know—wet tents and the floor—because we were—there was no floor. And I was sleeping in the truck in the front for three months. I slept in the Deuce. And that was tough. It was hard because it has a canvas—padding is canvas and metal. There's a thing in the middle. And there, I never forget it, It was my friendly thing. It was a metal piece that was hitting me in the back every night (laughs)—there was a division in between the two seats. And after that we slept until I left we have tents. And the plan was to build hooches, as they call 'em. You know, there were like, buildings on top of, you know, about a foot or two off the ground. And they were with mosquito nets. And that was another issue that mosquitoes will eat you alive. I had all these issues with them (laughs). Yeah, it was tough. 00:34:57.824 --> 00:35:06.525 So, towards the end of your service, do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you when your service ended? 00:35:06.525 --> 00:36:08.000 I was in—I was a—still—they gave me—actually before my ending my service, they gave us two weeks off. But my two weeks off, I didn't have to do absolutely nothing. But I have to do one thing: guard duty. So I have to pull every day guard. That was a break. So I slipped—I could do whatever I wanna do during the daytime, but in the base camp, like in Cần Thơ, it was not too much to do. I mean, there was a little town in there. I didn't care too much about it to go to town. There was a—what is it called—the—my goodness, I forgot the name of the club for the Armed Forces, where they used to serve beer and hamburgers. And, they used to cook for us. And then that was in a little town. And that was the—oh my goodness, I can't remember—that was one of the services the Armed Forces provided for us. It was outside, like in a big town like Saigon, they will have like a—it's like a club— 00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:09.755 —Like an enlisted club? 00:36:09.755 --> 00:36:45.065 Yeah. But it's—yes. Only for the Armed Forces. And they'll have, you know, drinks, like—not alcoholic—like coke, you could have a hamburger, and they have like a day room that you can probably sit and read. And that was the city of Cần Thơ. And that was one of the places—but I stayed mostly in the base camp. And when I was getting short, I became a little more coward because I want to live. So I didn't wanna expose myself too much. 00:36:45.065 --> 00:36:45.844 Did you— 00:36:45.844 --> 00:36:58.585 —You know what I mean? I mean, it's not being a coward, it just self preservation. I say, if I survive this for so long, I want to be here. You know, I don't want to take a chance going to town and, you know, being a fool, you know? 00:36:58.585 --> 00:37:03.284 Did you return home or where did you go? 00:37:03.284 --> 00:37:41.275 When I—end the term of the service term, I end up in the San Francisco area. There was an Air Force base that we did the ETS, because that was the end of the term. And my plan was to go back to L.A.—Los Angeles—and, you know, finish my college—that was my first goal. And probably return home—I was born in Chile—to see my family that I didn't—I didn't see them for about six years. So that my first goal was to go there. 00:37:41.275 --> 00:37:46.684 What was it like for you when you stepped foot back in the United States in San Francisco? 00:37:46.684 --> 00:38:50.704 Oh, I was—well, people were kissing the ground, you know. They were, I saw it. The people, some GIs that went down on their feet. I saw them. All the ones that—there was a really bad attitude too. Most of the people didn't want to go back to their families, you know, I don't know why. That was really bad. I noticed that I—what are you gonna do? Because I met a lot of guys in there. They said, "Well, I don't want to go. I have some issue with my family." So some of them said, "What are you gonna do? I'm gonna stay in San Francisco—in here." And it was a really strange attitude. I can tell you. I mean, I said, "You're not close with them? You don't have no family?" "No, I don't get along with them," and so forth. So that was really sad to hear that. And some people—I don't know why—I guess the war makes you strange too. You know, people—I don't know—it was like a demise on everything. I know I want to see my family. That was the first thing. Because, you know, I was drafted outta college and I wanted—and I didn't see my parents for almost six years. They were in South America. They were in Chile. So I said that was my main goal: to go and see them. 00:38:50.704 --> 00:38:54.684 How were you received by your family and community upon returning? 00:38:54.684 --> 00:39:27.744 Oh my God—they wouldn't let me come back. Yeah, yeah. And I end up in summer in South America's. It's just beautiful, especially Chile—you know, we're a big family. So I end up—I didn't want to come back—but I said I got my things to do. So that was my—I spent about three months in Chile I think after—yeah, three, almost. And, but I want to come back. I wanna finish my school. My goal. That's my whole ideas—and do my thing in here, because I planned that since I was a kid. I always dream about to come here. 00:39:27.744 --> 00:39:32.804 How did you readjust to civilian life? Did you work or go back to school? 00:39:32.804 --> 00:40:02.184 I went back to school and then I start—I went back to school at the beginning. Yes, I did go back to the—I got my GI Bill and I started going to, you know, finish my junior college. That was my first goal—and—which I did. And then, I liked the aerospace industry in defense, so that's what I—that was my goal, too—to go back to work for them. Which I did. 00:40:02.184 --> 00:40:07.264 Did you continue any friendships after service? And if so, for how long? 00:40:07.264 --> 00:43:23.804 You know, I didn't. People were from other states—most of the people that was in Vietnam. I—in fact, it was really strange because I was in Torrance, California, and there was a—in Torrance, California, there's a lot of refineries, and there was a gas station that I used to go—I worked for a company called TRW (Thompson Ramo Wooldridge Inc.), which we did, you know, defense contracts, aerospace, and all that. So this day I stop in this gas station, and guess what? I run in to one of people that I was in Vietnam. He was a mechanic in our motor pool. I used to go over there, and I teased him all the time—he and the sergeant—this guy was a redhead guy, I don't remember his name. And I said, "Do you remember me?" And I see he looked at me and I said, you remember such and such. And I asked him a question: "What happened to Cần Thơ?" I asked him. "Oh, we got a run in here in Tet Offensive. We did well." Because I left before the Tet Offensive. But there was not a—what do you call—there was not a contact. I said—I wish the guy would say, "Hey, let's get together or something." It was like, "Hey, see you now. See you later." You know, that was the only thing. So there was a lot of camaraderie when I was there. You know, people—in fact, when I was in Vietnam, you know what I did outta ammunition boxes? I helped to build a bar. I built a bar myself with a sergeant that, I can't remember his name. He was my protege. Big guy. He was from the south, like I said, again—and I hope I remember his name, to keep him in record because he was—he helped me a lot. So, our ammunition boxes for the Howitzers, we filled them up with sand and we built a bar. We built a building. We put a building. And I was—my skills, since I was supply, I used to go out and get the plywood. They used to have a plywood where they put the sorties when they put the ammo in the helicopter. They have two holes on the side. They brought probably six by six planks—you probably remember those (points at interviewer)—and then I did the roof with that. And then we got some—I guess—some plastic roofing from dealing with—I used to trade C-rations for all these items that we are speaking of. And there was some guy that knew a carpenter out of town in Cần Thơ. He built the bar out of the plywood we got. So we built a beautiful bar out of that. And I never forget that one. And in the front, we have a muzzle of a Howitzer. That was our—the symbol of artillery right in there, I never forget. I got pictures. I think I got the pictures. I don't think that I have the pictures, because I lost—all those pictures that I took in that area in Cần Thơ I lost in the camera that I bought. I lost I don't know how many rolls of film I lost, but I had a great time helping. And I have free drinking on that bar until I left. Would you believe that? (Toro laughs.) 00:43:23.804 --> 00:43:27.585 Did you join any veteran organizations? 00:43:27.585 --> 00:46:51.704 No, I didn't. It kind of—you know, I think most of the people who came from Vietnam were kind of ostracized. You remember that? We kinda insulted. 'Cause I get insulted and you—like I mentioned over at—when I left Travis (Travis Air Force Base) up in San Francisco, some guy say something about, Are you the, you know, baby killers or something like that. Twice. I have that—another one in L.A. So sort of lost the—how would you say—the interest, you know? And I didn't want to know anybody. I never mentioned that I was in the Army until they recognized us. You know, people being more onto our side. I felt—I never spoke of it. You know, never even at work—people never. I never talked to my kids about anything. My wife (shakes his head), you know—I think most of the Vietnam veterans, we were sort of sour at the end. Because they got—I saw a lot of heroes. I saw amazing people. You won't believe it. I mean, like, you guys (points at interviewer), like my interviewer in here. You know that—you know—people—amazing. Amazing soldiers and especially infantry. Yeah. I can tell you some issues in there. You wouldn't believe it. There was an infantry unit in—I never forget this one. We were—I was in the—taking a—coming out of the shower, and we had this group of soldiers that came over. They were all infantry. And they have a baboon. This guy had a baboon—they have a monkey. And that monkey was a dog. And these guys were in the field, and these guys were so raggedy—you wouldn't believe it. These guy were like long range patrols. They were like—they called them LRRPs (long-range reconnaissance patrol). I don't know if you heard about them. It's a unit—I guess—and they go at nighttime. They go out of the base camps and they start doing search and destroy. So they see—because usually our base camp was surrounded by—you know, the Viet Cong was out there. And these guys had the monkey—this monkey, this baboon, it was like a dog. He held sense. Anybody moving—there was not—in fact, I remember approaching this monkey, and the NCO told me, Don't get close, he'll get you. It was a great baboon. It's a monkey. And that was a dog—guard dog for these people. It was amazing. And these people were attached. They were not attached to our—the 25th Infantry division that I belonged to—they were not. They were like a bastard battalion. And so they were doing all this reconnaissance, and they were amazing, these people. I can—you know—there were some—there were some good soldiers. And we came back for the really—most of them came back with a really bad attitude, because we were treated like, you remember—I don't know if you guys know—probably we treated a little like we didn't—we were not wanted. Yeah. But they recognized us—luckily—later on, they recognized us—you know, Vietnam veterans. But most of them, they really—we were really sour, all of the ones that I knew. So I hide my identity. Yeah, I was in the army, but I never mentioned that. What do you call that? I was—that I served in Vietnam and so forth. And people didn't care really. You know, the new generation. My kids never ask me until later on about what that—what you did, what you went through. 00:46:51.704 --> 00:46:58.284 How has your service impacted your life, your community, your faith, and your family? 00:46:58.284 --> 00:48:27.875 I makes—I think of, you know—at the beginning after coming out, you know, you don't have a sense of pride. You became—you have a sense of pride after people recognize you. That's the only problem. You feel more guilty—you know—at the beginning when you get out because, you know, we not recognized. So there was an effort, you know, for them to say, "Hey, you know, thanks for your service." I started getting the thanks for your service later on in life, you know—way back. And mostly the people that approached me were veterans. You know, that they told us that. People—you know, the American soldiers are amazing. I tell you that—what I saw in Vietnam. To survive all that junk we went through and then not be recognized—and then left the country like that. That's the thing. It hurts the most, you know, being like treated the way they treated the people. They—you know—people like the soldiers—the American soldiers, I mean—the kids were great, but the attitude—the outside attitude was really bad. It was really bad toward us. And that's what it really hurt—a lot of people. I mean, we were doing what the country ask you for, you know, but they—you go and serve and do the best you can, and then you come all out like we were—actually, you remember My Lai (The My Lai massacre) and all that—like we were criminals. 00:48:27.875 --> 00:48:33.405 What are some life lessons you've learned from military service? 00:48:33.405 --> 00:49:20.554 I guess the friendship. There's a lot of friendship, you know, in there. Sometimes you don't feel like all by yourself. You know, that. And also it used a little discipline, because there was a lot of kids when I was in the army—I was in Fort Ord—that they were in trouble with the law somehow. And they were near serving because of that. You know, in my training unit in Fort Ord, they were a lot of kids that were—what they call them—Cat 4?. They have a name—I think category four. So these guys were—somehow they have some trouble with the law. So they have a choice either to serve or to end up in jail. And they were young kids. They were not adults—you know, in the eighteens. Yeah. 00:49:20.554 --> 00:49:29.005 What message would you like to leave for future generations who will view and hear this interview? 00:49:29.005 --> 00:50:04.465 Oh, the experience teach you—I learned one thing that—to survive, that's the thing. You have to survive. And you know, when you are in the war and you're—and you have to serve—you have to survive. And there's not too much you can do. And what you can do for yourself is be yourself. Because nobody else—when you're in a situation—as my interviewer knows too—at this point I'm gonna use that as—you are the only one in there. You. And you can't count on anybody else. 00:50:04.465 --> 00:50:05.000 How did—(Toro and Beyer accidentally speak simultaneously.) 00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:05.989 —Excuse me— 00:50:05.989 --> 00:50:06.000 Sorry. 00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:26.704 You can't count on anybody else, but you know that you're supported. But that is your life at stake in there. I mean, you're the only one that can—you know, you don't know what is gonna happen in that moment. I mean, you look for the risk, but the only things you think at that time are you, you know? How you gonna react to this? That's what I'm trying to say. 00:50:26.704 --> 00:50:33.125 How did you become associated with the San Marcos community? 00:50:33.125 --> 00:50:51.295 Well, was through my neighbor, Jason. He brought me to this in here, because I never thought I was gonna be interviewed. He's a former also gallant Armed Forces. He served many conflicts. 00:50:51.295 --> 00:51:05.074 Thank you for taking the time to share your recollections of military service. Is there anything you've always wanted to share about your service or veteran experience that you never have? 00:51:05.074 --> 00:52:18.074 Well, like I said, I wish if I could remember the names, but there's a lot of—you know, I think I had a—at the beginning, you know, in basic training, I made a lot of good friends. You know, and then they departed all their ways. I don't remember their names, but I have some pictures that you have—some other records in there. I think my interviewer has a picture of it. He was a—great people. I met some fine people. And when I was in Fort Ord, I did—and when I was also overseas and in Vietnam, I did meet a lot of people who had a lot of fun—especially on night times in our hooch—(laughs)—when they have the beer parties in there, and we used to—what do you call the, you know—I was very conservative. I don't gamble. And so I used to send all my money to my bank in L.A.—(laughs)—all the little that I earned. But the other—my older friends that used to love—they used do to a lot of gambling in there. My God, it was amazing. They have a lot of fun in between the beers and the—we had a lot of great time in the Hooch. That was the best time in the—the comradery. Yeah. In Vietnam. Yeah, there was a lot of that. And the biggest gamblers were the cooks—(laughs)—that's what I remember. 00:52:18.074 --> 00:52:23.684 What do you wish more people knew about veterans? 00:52:23.684 --> 00:52:29.295 What they going through. Yeah. What they going through. 00:52:29.295 --> 00:52:31.005 Could you elaborate on that? 00:52:31.005 --> 00:53:55.985 I mean, the do's and don'ts. The way you lose your freedom. You're not anymore in charge you of your future. I mean, someone else got your hands on. So that was my only thing—you know—you gotta serve and you're not an instrument, but you are a tool—you know, to help, I guess, the conflict. But they—you don't have too much to say. Some people are—they're born to be a soldier and—you know—and they're strong. And some people, they're a little in between. They're more—I guess, a pacifier—pacifist. And those are the ones that have a hard time. But they all serve. And that is a—that is a difficult time. I mean, for the people that don't have the—even though if you're brave, you have your feelings. I mean, you know, when danger is—your life at a stake—you know, the bravery, it counts—but you know that, Hey, I gotta survive this one. And some people are a little weak, and those are the ones that suffer. And they have to be protected because they're not meant to serve, but they served. And I see a lot of people like that. They served and they were—they—I mean—they were not happy they were doing—but they served. 00:53:55.985 --> 00:54:05.445 In your unveiling of the journey, what are the lessons learned from your military experience? 00:54:05.445 --> 00:55:20.735 Well, they teach you—I think they make you more independent too—I think. But being independent is very difficult. You know, after my two years, I didn't know what to do because I've been always, you know, four square meals a day. So I have a little conflict in there. So you gotta get out of that one and say, What am I gonna do now that I'm outside. But I already was outside, you know? I was drafted when I was already working and I had my own—so I have my goals. So I think for younger people it's more difficult. They were 18 and they—they have some conflict—that's why they end up in the armed forces—and they'll be very difficult to readjust. And those are the ones that I saw. And when I left the Armed Services and I was up in my ETS—end of the term of my service—they didn't know what to do with themselves. Yeah. That was one of the things that I was really sad. And I was more mature, I guess—my age. I was 25 when I left. I was 24 when I got drafted—26 I got—actually, I'm sorry I'm changing. It was almost 27 when I end my—my ETS was 27. So I was a little more mature, so I see the weight—but those people, they have a very difficult time to adjust. I know that. 00:55:20.735 --> 00:55:22.445 Thank you for your time today. 00:55:22.445 --> 00:55:23.945 Okay, thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the &#13 ; creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.xml ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Toro, Albert F. Interview November 15th, 2024 Description An account of the resource Albert F. Toro is a Chilean American who served in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War, reaching his highest rank of E5 Sergeant. Toro described being drafted and deployed to Vietnam. As a Supply Noncommissioned Officer (NCO), Toro provided artillery units in combat zones with ammunition and food. Toro shared his life story as both an immigrant and veteran, including the ostracization and shame many veterans experienced upon their return from Vietnam. This oral history interview explores topics such as comradery, independence, military training, mentorship, college, recreation, fear, immigration, and veteran recognition. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-073 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-15 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Albert F. Toro Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Marilyn Huerta Adel Bautista Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army—Veterans Vietnamese Conflict, 1961–1975 Veterans—United States—Chile United States. Army—Noncommissioned officers Fort Ord (Calif.) Travis Air Force Base (Calif.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vietnam Chile United States Santiago (Chile) Monterey Peninsula (Calif.) Tan Son Nhut (Vietnam) Saigon (Vietnam) Củ Chi (Vietnam) Cần Thơ (Vietnam) South Vietnam Mekong Delta (Vietnam) South America San Francisco (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Torrance (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Albert F. Toro License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Community history Latine experience San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5f846d16b07cebe79f32b0e45a368b9e.tif 2de5aca49a45a8348cb1dcebbdcc8698 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Basic Training Description An account of the resource Toro posing with Andy Andersen at basic training at Fort Ord, California Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 30, 1967 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/fbcf4960aa752901686449e33cff8717.tif 155c9148bb02fd3ecd0a197a0c648fe8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tent in Cu Chi Description An account of the resource Toro and Corporal Roe in a tent in Cu Chi, Vietnam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a588aabe1d226388f4983ea8249f9758.tif d93b145d903fe6830646784328e9fa32 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Service delivery Description An account of the resource A service delivery truck to the mess hall in Cu Chi, Vietnam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5894ee2e456478b2e7e86e9f2361196c.tif ca6ed40adfd5448fa6a719e2377265aa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ammunition dump Description An account of the resource Toro posing at an ammunition dump during monsoon season in Cu Chi, Vietnam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a30d54045801a0c1837a2742d3be288a.tif fdab3f6b39663a46820747cbda9d5575 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Deploying to Can Tho, Vietnam Description An account of the resource Toro leaving Cu Chi and deploying to Can Tho, Vietnam on a U.S. Navy Landing Ship, Tank (LST) in Newport, Saigon, Vietnam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b4543b8b9ac018a53964a556750b00fe.tif f084653b48ee3a24975630c358b6e1e6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Navy Landing Ship, Tank (LST) Description An account of the resource A U.S. Navy Landing Ship, Tank (LST) in Newport, Saigon, Vietnam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6b0e3bc3a4aece457f1d723baed53d26.tif 6cc59aead9a00cd648f1372d90658ed5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Deploying to Can Tho 2 Description An account of the resource Leaving Saigon and deploying to Can Tho on a U.S. Navy LST, Saigon, Vietnam Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource August, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2438aa7f1badf5931265ad8b288486da.tif 29af91310fe939af5b45556c25df127e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living quarters Description An account of the resource Living quarters tents in Can Tho, Vietnam Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/cbf1f1370ae73210fbb657ce6c80c217.tif 86c759e0d0b39f2ae6eb962f844f0014 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource U.S. Army Howitzer Description An account of the resource Toro posing with a U.S. Army Howitzer in Can Tho, Vietnam, Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource September, 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1129569059db11422fc03bfa98cd9691.tif b32cfbcf58613dfe4fe5b7045bc2139c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource River patrol boat Description An account of the resource A U.S. Navy River Patrol boat on the Mekong River Delta Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August, 1968 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Description An account of the resource Ten photos related to the oral history of Albert F. Toro. Photograph #1 depicts Toro posing with Andy Andersen at basic training at Fort Ord, California, 1967. Photograph #2 depicts Toro and Corporal Roe in a tent in Cu Chi, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #3 depicts a service delivery truck to the mess hall in Cu Chi, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #4 depicts Toro posing at an ammunition dump during monsoon season in Cu Chi, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #5 depicts Toro leaving Cu Chi and deploying to Can Tho, Vietnam on a U.S. Navy Landing Ship, Tank (LST) in Newport, Saigon, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #6 depicts a U.S. Navy LST in Newport, Saigon, Vietnam, 1968 . Photograph #7 depicts leaving Saigon and deploying to Can Tho on a U.S. Navy LST, Saigon, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #8 depicts living quarters tents in Can Tho, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #9 depicts Toro posing with a U.S. Army Howitzer in Can Tho, Vietnam, 1968. Photograph #10 depicts a U.S. Navy River Patrol boat on the Mekong River Delta, 1968. Click on the thumbnails to view the full images in more detail. Title A name given to the resource Toro, Albert F. Photographs, Various dates. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1967 - 1968 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0d373a6360c40c8b8d7efbbccfac3a2d.pdf 1f8b1ac558b508d18aa51c9e6a69f7b1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Toro, Albert. Interview Transcript, November 15, 2024 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Albert F. Toro Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Adel Bautista Marilyn Huerta Justin Gans Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Albert F. Toro Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ToroAlbert_BeyerJason_2024-11-15_transcript License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Description An account of the resource Albert F. Toro is a Chilean American who served in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War, reaching his highest rank of E5 Sergeant. Toro described being drafted and deployed to Vietnam. As a Supply Noncommissioned Officer (NCO), Toro provided artillery units in combat zones with ammunition and food. Toro shared his life story as both an immigrant and veteran, including the ostracization and shame many veterans experienced upon their return from Vietnam. This oral history interview explores topice such as comradery, independence, military training, mentorship, college, recreation, fear, immigration, and veteran recognition. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vietnam Chile United States Santiago (Chile) Monterey Peninsula (Calif.) Tan Son Nhut (Vietnam) Saigon (Vietnam) Củ Chi (Vietnam) Cần Thơ (Vietnam) South Vietnam Mekong Delta (Vietnam) South America San Francisco (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Torrance (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army—Veterans Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 Veterans—United States—Chile United States. Army—Noncommissioned officers Fort Ord (Calif.) Travis Air Force Base (Calif.) Community history Latine experience San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Ho Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hac Tran OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Chicago OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Tran, Hac. Interview April 25, 2023. SC027-107 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the CSUSM Faculty Center's Professional Development Grant. csusm Chicago Vietnam immigration community Vietnamese American identity Hac Tran Jennifer Ho moving image TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5b8ef81b80a4c8239d06fed2bf8486bf.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history of Hac Tran on April 25, 2023, by Jennifer Ho. 0 26 Childhood and Vietnamese community Hac talks about his childhood in Chicago and his early connection to the Vietnamese American community. He speaks of his parents’ involvement in the community and shares their backgrounds and migration stories. Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Argyle ; Uptown ; Chicago ; diaspora ; Tet ; Nam Dinh ; Hanoi ; Hai Duong ; Hai Phong ; French colonialism ; Da Lat ; Saigon ; Wake Island ; Trinity Christian College ; Palos Heights ; Milwaukee ; Chinatown ; Oak Park ; Mimosa Café 0 629 Restaurant life Hac talks about Mimosa Café, the restaurant his parents opened in the 1980s, and shares his memories there. He also talks about his recent visit to the restaurant, and reflects on his parents motivation to open the restaurant. Red hots ; Wheaton North High School ; Head Start ; Glendale Heights ; Vietnamese community ; restaurant kid ; Nam Dinh ; pho 0 1095 Family relationships Hac talks about his relationships with his immediate and extended family. Milwaukee ; Glendale Heights ; cousins ; California ; Texas 0 1291 Asia on Argyle, Vietnamese identity and media representation Hac reflects on his long relationship with the Argyle community, as well as his Vietnamese identity and how it has evolved through the years. He talks about the media and books that have impacted him personally. Lunar new year ; DePaul University ; Christopher House ; Uptown ; Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Chinese Mutual Aid Association ; Texas ; media representation ; racism ; Jet Li ; Trinh Cong Son ; Bob Dylan ; Joan Baez ; Khanh Ly ; nhac vang ; Bolero music ; nhac trinh ; Modern Talking ; New Wave ; Andrew X. Pham ; Catfish and Mandala 0 2060 Argyle shops and restaurants Hac talks about the businesses on Argyle. He mentions some of his favorite meals at local restaurants. Tai Nam ; Double Happiness ; Hong Kee ; Vietnamese Chinese ; Teochew ; Jennifer Pham ; Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Nha Hang Viet Nam ; Da Nang Kitchen ; Quang Nam ; Mi Quang ; Pho 777 ; Hanoi ; Café Hoang ; Hue 0 2324 Life plans, Vietnam and culture Hac talks about his community ambassador role in the Uptown neighborhood, and why he didn’t expect to be working here as an adult. He describes his time living and working in Vietnam and the plans he had at the time. He also talks about the idea of moving back to Vietnam, and how culture evolves. Argyle ; Budapest ; Hungary ; Texas ; non-governmental organization ; Save the Children ; Quang Nam ; Le Ly Hayslip ; gentrification ; culture 0 2652 Vietnamese American identity Hac reflects on what makes us Vietnamese or Vietnamese American. food ; Prague ; Little Saigon ; diaspora ; cultural events ; place-based lived experiences ; Double Happiness ; cultural corridors ; identity 0 2974 Similarities, differences and how we see ourselves Hac talks about the ways he is similar and different from other Vietnamese Americans, how he is seen by people in the community and how he sees himself. He also talks about his parents ideas of how to maintain Vietnamese identity. Viet kieu ; Southern California ; Orange County ; Sup Dawk ; boundaries ; expectations ; HAIBAYO ; Vietnamese language 0 3866 Vietnamese communities around the world Hac talks about interesting Vietnamese diasporic communities he has visited abroad. Little Saigon ; San Jose ; Budapest ; Czech Republic ; Prague ; Paris ; Chinatown ; Eastern Europe 0 4117 Partnership and passion Hac talks about his business partner and friend, Jenny Pham, and what keeps them motivated to do community heritage work. Jennifer Pham ; Da Lat ; Chinh tri Kinh doanh ; Nguyen Van Tam ; Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Chinese Mutual Aid Association ; Hue ; Lac Nhan ; Axis Labs ; HAIBAYO ; Tong wars ; Chinatown ; Hip Sing ; San Francisco ; New York ; ethnic Chinese ; Mini Thuong Xa Pharmacy ; CVS ; cultural legacy ; erasure ; Chicago Transit Authority ; Hoan Huynh 0 4812 Impact of time in Vietnam, and how we build connections Hac reflects on his time spent in Vietnam and how it affected him. He speaks of meeting family members for the first time, and of how it solidified his sense of personal identity as well as his career plans. He discusses how connections are built in Vietnam versus in the U.S. Agent Orange ; south Vietnamese ; collective bonds ; community 0 5393 Asian and Black community relations Hac reflects on the relationships between the Asian and Black communities. He talks about the email he sent to his family regarding this division, and how his parents passed down a love for humanity. racism ; colorism ; Black community ; Black Lives Matter 0 5728 Next steps and finite time Hac talks about what is next for him, and also about a recent health scare from his father that made him realize their time together is limited. community work ; Chicago ; inherent trauma ; reconciliation 0 Oral history Hac Tran is a Vietnamese American community organizer. In this interview he shares his parents' immigration stories, his childhood growing up in Chicago, and his work in the cultural district of Asia on Argyle in the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago. Hac also speaks about living and studying in Vietnam and how these experiences shaped him personally.&#13 ; NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000  00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:19.000 Okay. Today is April 25th, 2023. I’m Jenn Ho, and I’m here with Trần Qúy Hạc (Tran Quy Hac), interviewing him for the Children of Refugees Vietnamese American Oral History Project, and we are in Chicago, Illinois. Thanks for being with me today, Hac. How are you? 00:00:19.000 --> 00:00:26.000 Oh, yeah. I’m doing well. Thank you for this opportunity to, you know, speak and share my family’s history. 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:33.000 Yeah, my pleasure. Okay, so let’s start from the beginning of your life. Tell me when and where you were born. 00:00:33.000 --> 00:01:49.000 I was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1985 at Michael Reese Hospital which is in Bronzeville. Yeah. So, I was born in Chicago. My parents came here ten years prior. So, I was―I have an older sister, born in 1984. They’ve tried to have children before but, you know, a lot of miscarriages. So, my sister and I were kind of like miracle babies, I guess, after multiple miscarriages, for my mother. But, yeah, I was born and raised a little bit in Chicago. I’ve moved to the Chicagoland. Always been connected to―especially, you know, the Vietnamese American community here in Chicago, which was where we are now in Argyle Street which is now called Asia on Argyle. But, you know, growing up we always called it just Argyle or in Vietnamese you would say “Ahgai.” So, my parents were part of the Vietnamese Association of Illinois (VAI), in the early days. My mom worked there as a secretary years, years ago like in the late ‘70s and my dad was part of the board throughout the ‘90s. So, you know, I–we were always like engaged with the Vietnamese community within Chicago since my parents came here. 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:52.000 Okay. Thank you for that–that context. 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:53.000 Yeah. 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:56.000 So, you’ve really always been immersed in the Vietnamese American community? 00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:57.000 Yeah. 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:04.000 How did you feel about that as a child? Were you really into it? Or did you–did you embrace it or–or no? 00:02:04.000 --> 00:03:18.000 Yeah. I–from my memory, I would say like, yeah, I did embrace it in the sense that, you know, when you’re young, you have friends. So, there was like a lot of other kids our age. So, it’s like, you know, you–you build those friendships. It’s more about “Hey, I want to see my friend” and like be part of this, you know, this community of youth. It didn’t really click until later, you know, the idea of like being immersed within one’s diaspora and one’s culture. Because over the years growing up, you know, like you are part of it, but then you go to school. You kind of integrate into, you know, the larger American dominant society. So you do–I did like I felt like I did lose touch with my community and my culture for some period of time, like in my teen years up until college. But, yeah, as a kid, I was involved not only with the community but we were every like Tết (Tet) and like Lunar New Year like my mom and her friends organize the dance troupe of like all the youth. So, we were―every year we were like performing as kids, and like just in the youth programs and stuff with VAI and the larger Vietnamese community. So, but yeah, I think I embraced it because it was more so like connection between like other kids your age. 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:19.000 Yeah. Like it’s so— 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:20.000 That just happened to be, you know— 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:21.000 Yeah. 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:25.000 —we were all so embedded within Vietnamese culture and–and things like that. 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:41.000 Yeah. Would you say that your parents were involved because they–because they wanted to make sure that you held on to your sense of culture? Or was it really more for them or maybe a little bit of both? 00:03:41.000 --> 00:05:13.000 I think it’s both, because, you know, growing up I would hear it, you know, you can’t like mất gốc (mat goc, to lose your roots). You shouldn’t lose your roots. Like I would always consistently hear that from my parents, especially when they—you know, I would like prefer to speak English to them or something like that. And obviously also I believe it’s part of, you know—especially as refugees, right? They came in 1975. My dad always thought he was going to go back. Um, like oh, I—he didn’t—you never really know the future. So when he left the U.S., like for the U.S., or he left Việt Nam (Vietnam), rather — he didn’t really know where he was going — there was always like the desire of home, and returning home. So, I think for them like to have that shared kind of experience collectively with other people who have gotten through the same thing in building community, it’s, in part, I think for them, too, to, you know, maintain what this idea or this notion of home is. And obviously, you know, like when you have a family or–and–kids, you want to pass that culture down to your child. And I think for my parents, it’s—I mean, for many refugees, right? Like, within this–this time—it’s like, a lot of it’s like they’re forced to leave all they knew. So, like you’re in this strange new land and you see that with like throughout the generations with people. Like people like come and they always find their community. So, I think like for them it’s important and like to pass on to your children is–is probably the reason why. Yeah. 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:20.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you. I definitely want to talk more about you because this interview is about you. 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:21.000 Yeah. 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:24.000 But obviously we’re not who we are without our parents. So, let’s talk about them for a little bit. 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:25.000 Okay. 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:34.000 Do your–do your parents talk a lot about their–their children–uh, their childhood and, you know, their experiences growing up? And I’m talking about like pre-war before— 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:35.000 Yeah. 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:40.000 —all of that stuff, like who they were as–as people. Like are they open to sharing that stuff? 00:05:40.000 --> 00:10:29.000 Yeah. Surprisingly, I hear a lot of people, you know, peers my age, like they don’t know anything about their parent’s family because they don’t want to share it. Either it’s too traumatic or like it’s the past to be buried. But, yeah, like luckily for me I, you know, my–both my parents shared a lot of their history, like their childhood and up until leaving Vietnam. So, like both of my parents are originally from the north. My father is from Nam Định (Nam Dinh) which is a small province like, I believe, it’s like east, southeast maybe. I’m not exactly sure geographically. But it’s not far from Hà Nội (Hanoi). And then my mom’s side of the family—her father’s from Hải Dương (Hai Duong) which is near Hải Phòng (Hai Phong), around there. And my grandmother on my mom’s side is from Hanoi. So, they were--they grew up pre-1954, you know, when there was like still French colonialism. They lived in the north. Like my father was like—his family, I believe his father died young when he was young. Both my—my dad was kind of like an orphan. So, he moved around from different relatives’ houses and stuff. And then my mom’s side of the family—they were kind of like wealthy. So that’s why in 1954 my mom’s side of the family left. They were not Christian or Catholic or anything. So their circumstances for leaving the north for the south in 1954 were drastically different. My father just left with his younger brother, and, yeah. He went south and they lived in Sài Gòn (Saigon). Up until 1975, my father was part of the military a little bit but he went to Đà Lạt (Da Lat) to tea–or to study. He also had connections to the U.S. Embassy teaching English. So, that’s how he kind of got out in ’75. At that point, he was just him because his brother had passed during the war. And then my mom’s side of the family—my grandfather was a very wealthy banker in Saigon. So, she was like what–what you would say is like probably like the one percent of here. So they were–she was very privileged. So, they got out like April 30th through his connections. And then my parents met each other actually initially on Wake Island. So, my dad, I bel—yeah, my dad went to Guam first, and then went to Wake Island which is, I believe, it’s a Pacific island under U.S. military--I think it’s a military base or something. But in the refugee camp there my father was teaching English to other refugees and my mother was his like assistant. So, they had connected there. And then, through sponsorships my father was sponsored through Trinity Christian College in Palos Heights on the southwest side. It’s a suburb southwest of the city. And then my mother’s side was sponsored by a Lutheran church to Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So, my dad--you know, they lost touch after leaving Wake Island. But they reconnected actually here on Argyle Street, in probably like ’76-’77 or something like that, I’m not sure the exact year. But the story goes that back then it was not like you see now where there’s, you know, there’s a lot of commerce and businesses. Like where Vietnamese people met was like peoples’ houses. So, there was my dad’s friend. He lived like right at–right over here at Sheridan and Argyle, right across the street from where we’re from, actually. Um, and that year my mother—it was like the winter storm of, I believe, seventy-something and her and her friends from Milwaukee were going to go down to Chinatown. But it was like too much snow. And her friend had heard, “Hey, there’s like actually like someone who sells phở (pho, noodle soup) out of their house.” That’s closer. You know, if you want to go to Chicago, but it’s still like an Asian community. So, they decided to go there. They went there, ate pho, and there was also like mahjong, you know, in the houses. So, the story goes that, you know, my mom actually had to go—her and her friends left, actually, and she needed to go to the bathroom. So, she went back up. And then like the person leaving the bathroom, I believe, was like my dad. And then they met each other again. And through that he like just wrote down his phone number. And then, you know, a back and forth a lot like from my dad drove a lot to Milwaukee and, you know, eventually they got married and then my mom moved down here. Um, so that’s where kind of, I guess, my origin story starts in Chicago. And then like, yeah. Their–their story is, you know, my dad was an auditor for the state of Illinois. They worked with the VAI like I said previously. But like in the very early ‘80s, they decided to open a restaurant. But it wasn’t actually in this area. They opened it kind of on the west side of the city, pretty far west, like close to Oak Park. 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:31.000 What was it called? 00:10:31.000 --> 00:12:15.000 It was called Mimosa Cafe. At first it was like a Red Hots joint. Like my dad was selling burgers, hot dogs, things like that. And then he decided to add like simple items that were like fried rice, egg rolls onto the menu. And a lot of people really started buying that so he decided eventually to kind of pivot to just open like a Vietnamese restaurant. So it was called Mimosa Cafe. It was like, you know, those like hot dogs’ places are tiny. So, like there was like lines out the door. But then he moved the restaurant to Oak Park off of like Harlem, near the green line. But unfortunately there was like, you know—The economy was bad. He moved completely to another area, lost business. It survived like, five or six years after that, but eventually, you know, he had to shutter the business. And then we—that’s when we moved out to the suburbs. He got a job—a teaching job—at Wheaton North High School. And then, my mom eventually got into social work at Head Start. And then I grew up out in Glendale Heights which—surprisingly, there’s a lot of Vietnamese people out there. There’s a few churches. Not far from there is like a Vietnamese Buddhist temple. So, there’s actually like a large Vietnamese community. And so, I grew up–I grew up with like in–in grade school, high school, with like a lot of Vietnamese kids around me. So, not only was I connected here to Argyle and like VAI and like that youth program of Chicago, but where we lived, like, my kindergarten classroom was like three Tran students—me, Steven, and another Tran, you know. So, it was like, (chuckles) you know, we–I grew up surrounded by that, that culture. 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:21.000 Yeah. Okay. What years was Mimosa Café open? 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:25.000 (sighs) Whooo. I should–I should know this precisely. 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:26.000 You were–you were around though. You were— 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:28.000 Uh, they opened before I was born. 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:31.000 Oh, okay. 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:31.000 So, I believe it was like probably like ’80. 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:32.000 Okay. 00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:36.000 And then it was like a ten-year period, like from the–from 1980 to 1990, I would say. 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:38.000 Okay. 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:41.000 Yeah. So, they even had it like a restaurant before my sister was born— 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:46.000 Okay. So, do you have memories of–of being in–in the restaurant? 00:12:46.000 --> 00:13:44.000 Yeah, I do. Um, the–the second restaurant, though. The first one I wasn’t around for that. So, I think, yeah. So, I just remember the one like on Harlem Avenue, over in Oak Park, right at the cusp of the city, just like sitting in the back, like on the milk crates and eating egg rolls and like, you know, his workers like prepping all the food. And there was this one booth that I remember specifically. It was like kind of near to the kitchen entrance, and me and my sister would like, would be those little kids, you know, when you go into a restaurant, you see those little kids coloring and stuff. We were those kids in the back. And it was interesting because like a few years ago—the building still exists. Now, it’s like actually surpri–like funny. It’s like a Red Hots, a gyros hot dog place now. That person bought the building after, you know, my dad shuttered his business. So, we went—actually, my sister and I—went there and it was like–it was weird. Like that was the first time I’d been in there since, like, 1990, I guess. 00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:46.000 How did you feel? Tell me. 00:13:46.000 --> 00:14:49.000 I felt like–I don’t–somewhat emotional, you know. Like, you know, I was going with my sister and this was like kind of our humble beginnings as children, you know and like my parents’ journey of trying to succeed in this country. And I didn’t have, like, true vivid memories because I was so young. I don’t even know if I could put it into words but I felt like–I don’t–it felt–it felt strange. Like there was a kind of out-of-body experience, like whoa, like this is like the past and the present. And like I never really thought about this place, you know. But looking at old photos and stuff, there’s like birthdays every year. We always would have it there. And like all the Vietnamese community would come for our birthdays. So, it was like looking at that and like realizing how far we’ve come since that moment. Yeah, it made it—I would say, yeah. Um, I can’t think of the words right now. 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:50.000 Okay. 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:51.000 Yeah. 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:52.000 Sometimes there are no words. 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:53.000 Yeah. 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:59.000 So, um, did you and your sister go out there with the purpose of like visiting the (Tran coughs) shop and is that what you were–you set out to do that day? 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:29.000 I don’t think so. We were like thrifting. You know, like—and going to like–like shopping arou—like we stopped by Oak Park for something. I can’t remember what. But then we were like—I’m like “Hey, let’s just–do you want to go in and eat here?” So, we would–we ate but the food was not that great (chuckles). But–but it was more so like, you know, we wanted to like sit down in there and like see it. But, yeah, it wasn’t intentional. It just happened that we drove past it. Like, I’ve driven past it, like actually many times with never like I’m going to go in and see it. 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:30.000 Yeah. 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:31.000 Yeah. 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:36.000 Okay. Can I ask why–why did your parents decide to open a restaurant? 00:15:36.000 --> 00:17:28.000 I think it was more my father’s dream. Like he always wanted to probably be self-sufficient, and like, you know, have something of his own, to open a business. And he also like really enjoyed cooking. Like he was never like officially trained chef or anything. But like growing up in the north, um, he told me a story. Like, you know, pho actually is from Nam Dinh. The origin of pho, that dish is from his village or from that province. And like growing up, he was like - I guess he worked for like a family friend after his, you know, parents passed. Like his aunt sent him here. This guy who had a pho shop and like he learned that craft from Nam Dinh. So, he cooks, you know, like I think through that like he always like—and being alone, you know, throughout his like kind of formative years going to the south. Like he always had to cook for himself and stuff. So, I think like for him it was more—obviously, one, you want to open a business and try to be successful to probably build for your family. But there was also like this idea, I think, like he’s mentioned before where, you know, it’s–it’s like owning something of his own and like the passion for cooking. Yeah. And my mom is actually—I don’t think she ever really enjoyed the–the restaurant industry. But she like loves cooking. (siren sounds in background) So, it’s like growing up I just remember, you know, a lot of like gender roles within, you know, Vietnamese culture. It’s very patriarchal. But growing up, I would always see my dad in the kitchen with my mom, you know. And that’s like something you don’t really see in Vietnamese families. But he was like—you know, they were cooking together. So, I think like for me that - seeing that - was also like kind of was a segue into my enjoyment of food and–and like kind of food ethnography and food history and things like that. 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:29.000 Mm-hmm. That’s really cool. 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:30.000 Yeah. (clears his throat) 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:44.000 Something I’ve noticed as a theme in just talking to other Vietnamese people or to people of our generation is that parents always were very self-sufficient and very entrepreneurial. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:45.000 (sniffles) Yeah. 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:47.000 So, it sounds like that’s–that’s your dad. 00:17:47.000 --> 00:18:15.000 Yeah. Even though he like he didn’t succeed I think there’s that still that–that urge to try at least, you know. Like you–you can’t really tell the future of what’s successful or not. Like this block itself, there’s not really any small pop–mom–and shop restaurants from the early ‘90s that exist anymore, you know. So, people like, yeah, it’s that–that drive for–for entrepreneurship and to be self-sufficient, I think. 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:30.000 Yeah. Um, okay. So, let’s talk about you. Um, tell me about your family–your family and the people who raised you. I mean you’ve talked about mom and dad but were there any other family members around? 00:18:30.000 --> 00:20:34.000 Yeah. So, like (clears his throat) my father’s side of the family—he’s the only one actually that came to the U.S. So his entire family, all relatives like remained in–mostly in the north. So, I never really knew my dad’s family growing up at all until like later down the year, like years later I went to study abroad in Vietnam and like met them in the north. But like yeah. The people that raised me were, you know, like my mom, my dad, my grandmother. So, my–my mom’s dad died the year that I was born. So, I have two other cousins born like a month after me. Um, so we had—my mom is the oldest of eight. So, initially all of them lived in Milwaukee. But over the years, you know, growing up I remember like a big, close-knit family. Like I had eight aunts and uncles. There was eight of them, and then I had cousins. And those are like beyond my sister and I. Like we had like our cousins. Like those are all like our brothers and sisters. We grew up together. There’s three of them from Milwaukee. Two of them live here now. So, like—and that was like — growing up was—I just remember a lot of—it was a very busy household with a lot of different people always cooking. And like in the ‘90s my grandmother sponsored two of her younger brothers — so, my great uncles — over and they both lived in Glendale Heights near me. So, we would always be surrounded by aunts and uncles and my—I guess they would consider it like second cousins, my—but, you know, in Vietnamese it’s like just your uncle, your parent’s cousin or whatever. So, there was always people around. Um, and that like—I think like in–in many ways that— (coughs) I guess, what am I trying to say? I mean, yeah. It was like a loving environment, in the sense that there are a lot of different types of people, that grew up with you. Yeah. 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.000 That’s nice. Are you still close to these cousins? 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:59.000 Yeah. Um, so there is my sister and I. There is like seven of us in that–in our generation (clears throat) like between like now approaching forties I guess. I think some of them are forty already. But like we all like kind of grew up together and we’re still really close. Two of them live here. One lives in Cali and the other two live in Texas. 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:05.000 It sounds like—Are—I think I’ve met your sister one time a long time ago. You were—you guys are pretty close, aren’t you? 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:06.000 Yeah. (sniffles) 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.000 That’s nice. 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:31.000 Yeah. I’m mean that we are close but we, you know— I–I feel like (clears his throat) there’s also with any siblinghood there’s challenges and, you know, dealing with like inherited traumas and things like that that create conflicts. So, yeah. But we are like despite those things, you know, we are close. Yeah. 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:40.000 That’s great. You–so you’ve known–you’ve known this area, Argyle, your whole life. 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:43.000 I mean, there was years where I didn’t really (clears throat) come here. 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:44.000 Okay. 00:21:44.000 --> 00:23:41.000 It was probably like high school. Like after I got older I–I wasn’t really part of those dance troupes. Like we would always come here for like Lunar New Year. Um, but as like those like teen years, like I didn’t really—you know, I was hangin’ out with my friends, doing other things. So, I like kind of wasn’t part of the community those years. It wasn’t really until like I returned. So, yeah. During my childhood, I was like really embedded with the community but then the teen years I kind of did my own thing. But I went to DePaul University. So, I moved back to Chicago for college. And through that, like I think there was like—a lot of it during that time was like somewhat of an identity crisis. Like what is—who am—like, you know, who am I? Like am I more Vietnamese or am I like more American? Like kind of, you know, those struggles that a lot of other people in our generation kind of deal with. And beyond our diaspora as well. So, you know, I was questioning like—So, I took a–a bunch of like Asian American classes. I would always like come here. I actually worked from like my freshmen year, sophomore and junior year, I worked at Christopher House which is in Uptown, like with youth. So, we did like a lot of youth development work, one-on-one stuff, like reading skills like that. So, I was like right next—and that’s like right on Leland just south of here. So, I would always, through that, like, you know, Asian American classes, my work, and I started volunteering at like VAI and CMAA (Chinese Mutual Aid Association) in the youth program and as a ESL instructor. So, like through that like I like try to reconnect with this area. Um, but yeah. I think that didn’t really even like kind of answer my questions of what my identity is. So, I decided my junior year to like study abroad in Vietnam. Um, and then my cousin from Texas, one of the ones (something begins to beep)—Oh, can I turn this off? 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:42.000 Yeah, of course. 00:23:42.000 --> 00:24:33.000 Yeah, like the idea of like identity, right? Not really confident of who you are. So, I studied abroad and tried to like—Am I more Vietnamese than I realize? Like, I mean, throughout the years like–like, I’m, you know, Vietnamese American. It’s not like black and white. Like identities are so fluid and vast that it, you know, it’s hard to pinpoint in right or wrong, or this kind of dichotomy of identities, you know. So, I was like comfortable in my own skin of like who I am. And the–it–and not defining, you know. Like the Viet–the Vietnamese American experience is so diverse, right? There’s so many different like ways of thought and how we are. So, just being comfortable. Yeah, I’m a Vietnamese American and understanding and realizing like there are many different types of Vietnamese American people and lived experiences as well. 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:59.000 Mm-hmm. Okay. I’m really happy you brought that up because like half my questions are about identity and how we define ourselves. Um, I have to say I’m surprised that growing up amongst a bunch of Vietnamese Vietnamese people and Vietnamese Americans, that you–that you are questioning your identity. That surprises me. 00:24:59.000 --> 00:27:04.000 Yeah. I think like that’s the power of media and the power of—I mean, even though like I’m surrounded by the Vietnamese American community, it wasn’t like—and my family—you know, my family, I would say, I’m there every day. But, you know, especially like the challenge and cultural gaps that you have with your parents of that–that generation. There’s challenges and there’s like—you’re going to butt heads, you know. I didn’t understand these like really kind of more traditional conservative ways of, like, thought. And I’m like, that created conflict. So, even though, you know, you do have family around and community, there’s these—if you peel back the layers like there’s always like, you know, a lot of kind of conflict that exists, whatever that structure may be of conflict. So, I think like you know like saying that, you know you, despite having that–that connection and proximity to culture, in every day like when you go to school, it’s—I mean, there are Vietnamese kids but like there’s many more people. And also like we lived in a suburb that was adjacent to like, you know, a all-white, rich suburb. So, we went to school with kids like that and then you—as a kid you hear like, you know, racist things at that time. Like all that, you know, the kids that will say “ching chong” type of stuff, you know? And also the media just influencing your thought of like your identity, and self—rather like, self-worth, you know. So, there’s like–I feel like there’s a lot of different types of influencing factors of what makes up identity and what really crafted my understanding of like what I am, you know, and like challenging that throughout my youth or feeling like I don’t know what it is, I think. 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:26.000 Were—I have two questions. What role did your parents play in helping you figure this out? And by that, I mean like directly. Like, would you ask them a lot of questions? And would they be open to like answering them? Like, is this—were you able to talk to them about this kind of identity searching stuff? 00:27:26.000 --> 00:30:01.000 No. I didn’t. There was like really no question or no communication about that.Like I think like my relationship with my parents –like we were―I don’t know if it was like–it’s really close in the sense where I emotionally share my feelings and my challenges. Because I think like that’s the divide, right? Like just ‘cuz you’re in the same room with someone and next to them doesn’t mean you’re like interacting in a very deep meaningful way. Um, so growing up I never really engaged in that level ever with my parents. It was more like “Hey, you know, you’ve got to, like—” There is a lot of challenges and expectations of success and whatever that success might look like. But, no, I never–I never sought out like seeking my parent’s advice in terms of this. And I’m sure like as I get older now, you know I think about, like, maybe I should have, ‘cuz they themselves are going through probably a similar kind of identity crisis for their children. Because like if you’re in Vietnam and you stayed in Vietnam, you raised your kids this way. But now you’re faced with this completely different culture where your kids are no longer what you expected them to be. And that in a way leads to so many different challenges, you know. But like I think over the years my parents probably adapted themselves. And the expectation of, like, I’m never going to raise a Vietnamese kid like they exist in Vietnam, as a Vietnamese American kid, you know. So, yeah, but no, I never really sought that out. I don’t really actually—sought that out—like I kind of looked in and just found external ways to like understand either through books or media. Yeah, growing up I had Asian American friends like in high school that are still my best friends today. But we never–I don’t think we ever really talked about like the identity issue, right? Like are we Asian American? We just kind of lived it together through our common interests and maybe like our common struggles with–that drew us together. I don’t know. But um, yeah. I think it was more like just seeking ways to search for my identity externally either through reading or education or through experiential learning and like living abroad or something, you know. (sniffles) 00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:24.000 Okay. Thank you for that. You’ve mentioned media and external sources a few times. Were there any, like, you know fictional or real-life heroes that you kind of looked up to or felt a strong connection to? Or any like favorite books or musicians or anything that really like gave you a sense of strength and power? 00:30:24.000 --> 00:32:38.000 Yeah. I guess like real-life heroes, not really. It’s like, right, we talk about the representation of the Asian man in media. It’s like all kung-fu, even though like that’s the case, I did love Jet Li. Like his movies were bad ass, you know. So, me and my cousin would watch, you know, martial arts movies and like–like, yeah, hell yeah. Like this dude’s cool as hell, you know? But yeah, and then you see the larger dominant media and society depicting it. So, that influences like all your “I’m unworthy” type of thoughts, you know, that slowly start growing in your head. Um, music―I have like a weird history with music. Like–like I grew up just listening to like a lot of actually pre-war Vietnamese music and I still love it today. Like there’s–there’s a guy named Trịnh Công Sơn (Trinh Cong Son) who was considered the Bob Dylan of Vietnam. I think Joan Baez said that about him. And he always sang with Khánh Ly (Khanh Ly) and like that duo who was like pre-war. So, that type of music I think it’s called like nhạc vàng (nhac vang, yellow music, more commonly known as Bolero music.) (Note: Son and Ly are usually categorized as Nhạc Trịnh [Nhac Trinh]). My parents loved that so I would always listen to it. And I still love it today. But then like, yeah, my older cousins would listen to weird Euro-dance like, you know, Modern Talking. What did―it’s funny, because it’s like–there’s a documentary coming called “New Wave.” So, it was like a lot of that music that Vietnamese called New Wave but it’s like Euro-Pop, Euro-Trance, or whatever. So, I listened to a lot of that. So, even though it wasn’t Vietnamese, I think like a lot of Vietnamese people listened to that. And like even today, when you like―I hear Modern Talking like (sings) “You’re my heart. You’re my soul. Nah-nah-nah,” like on the block, it’s like all instant like “Yo!” Like that’s like, it sparks some type of, you know, realization or connection to someone else which is― yeah, I don’t know how–why my cousins listened to it, but they did. But I guess like maybe a lot of Vietnamese American in that generation did because now there’s a documentary being made about it, you know. 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.000 Yeah. I heard about that. It’s really cool. 00:32:40.000 --> 00:33:21.000 Yeah. Books, I think, more identity-wise, Catfish and Mandala (by Andrew X. Pham) was one of the first books that I really kind of―because it talked about–he biked through Vietnam, right? Like he talks about like–it was a page turner. It’s like a memoir and it really resonated with what I was going through at that time. It’s like wow! Like I want to seek—you know, that book didn’t tell you what to think. It was just sharing his experience and I wanted to―in many ways—live that experience too (siren sounds in background), to search and find what any resolution to what challenge of identity I had at the time. Yeah. So, yeah, that book I think. 00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:26.000 That was a really good book. I had it for years on my bookshelf before I had the courage to read it. 00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:33.000 Yeah. I should re-read it. I haven’t opened it since that one time I read it. 00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:43.000 The part that sticks out in my head is the part where he says that he was looking at some like muck on the ground or like trash or something and he just felt really ashamed of his country. 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:45.000 Oh, wow! 00:33:45.000 --> 00:34:20.000 And, I remember that sticking out to me because I was never proud of my identity at all. So, I’m still working on that honestly. This is your interview, not mine. (both laugh) Um, okay. I really–I really want to go to your study abroad experience. But first, I want to go back to–to this area in your childhood. So, tell me like were there any businesses or organizations on Argyle or–or Uptown–that stick out in your head and what were their names and why were they important to you? Um, and also any like memories that you can share with us. 00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:32.000 Yeah. Yeah. I―so, like I said, I don’t think there’s many businesses that still exist. There are a few, like the grocery stores are still here, like Việt Hoa (Viet Hoa) is still here. 00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:33.000 How long has― 00:34:33.000 --> 00:36:45.000 I think they’ve been here since like the early—like the ‘80s. Like mid ‘80s until now. So, it’s like forty–forty years plus. Tại Nam (Tai Nam) I think came a little later. Um, but Double Happiness and Hong Kee, so those are all like Chinese restaurants, you know? And those are the ones that kind of have been here the longest and that have sustained over the generations. But Double Happiness is―they’re also refugees from Vietnam, but they’re like Vietnamese Chinese, Teochew Chinese. So, I have like a lot of memories there like going as a kid. The menu it is the same menu from when we–I ate there as a kid. They just photocopied it, whited out the price over, you know, because of inflation. And like now it’s eleven dollars a bowl versus back then it was, like, four. But, it’s still the―it’s like a photocopy and I just remember going in there with my parents and, you know, their friends and their kids, just like having like an ice cold soy milk, eating the dried noodles and just like― And back then, from what I remember like, um, my business partner who is Jennifer Phạm (Jennifer Pham)–her–she grew up here too. And like when we talk about Argyle and our memories of Argyle in the past it’s like—it was so much―like the memory is that the area was so much more bustling. There was so―it was like crowded full of Vietnamese people whereas you see now it’s like almost desolate, you know? And that–that’s for many reasons, I think. But like, yeah. I mean like the memories of–of that was like in–in the VAI, Vietnamese Association of Illinois, used to be just north of Argyle on Broadway in this older building. They moved since then. But it was on the second floor, just like a lot of memories there. Um, like for the new year, giving speeches in Vietnamese to like the elders, just playing and running around the rooms, like with other kids. Yeah, it was just like―yeah, those are fond memories. Like you don’t have any worries, you know. And you just like had fun and like ate food. It was―yeah. I mean those memories stick out to me, I would say. 00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:52.000 What–what–what would you order to eat at these restaurants, like then and now? Like what are your favorite few things? Like if you had so―like a total― 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:53.000 That–at that restaurant? 00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:56.000 Yeah, or anywhere else? Like you and I went to Nhà Hàng (Việt Nam) (Nha Hang Vietnam) the other day. 00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.000 Oh, okay. Yeah. 00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.000 So, anywhere at anytime. 00:36:59.000 --> 00:38:44.000 Well, I still love that noodle place. Like I used to eat there like on a regular―and I get the same thing but it’s the same recipe too. So, basically, it’s just like dried egg noodles with like seafood, pork, garlic oil. You throw in your sauces how you want to dress it. And then there’s a bowl of soup on the side. So, that’s one of my favorite meals on Argyle. I love, currently, today, yeah like there’s–there’s like different, restaurants that specialize in different things, even though like, you know, if you walked into a restaurant, there’s like 95 things on the menu. But if you are, you know, if you live here you kind of know what’s good, what restaurant does what well. So like, yeah. Đà Nẵng Kitchen (Da Nang Kitchen), the husband is from Da Nang, like Quảng Nam (Quang Nam), which is center region. So, they do like a lot of like stuff that you don’t seen on other menus like Mì Quảng (Mi Quang), which is like kind of a turmeric rice noodle, seafood, kind of more condensed broth. That’s really good there. For triple s―if you want northern food, Pho 777, his wife is from Hanoi or that region, and she’s brought a lot of northern Vietnamese dishes that are spectacular that you often don’t see actually in restaurants in the U.S. because it’s more southern food. Um, Café Hòang (Cafe Hoang) has really great bún bò Huế (bun bo Hue). They’re from Huế (Hue), which is like that spicy, you know, beef noodle soup that’s really good. So, yeah, like there–there’s a lot of things. Like when I’m craving something, that’s―you know, I’ll know where to go. Um, and like, yeah. When we ate where we ate, Nha Hang Vietnam, they do a lot of like really good southern style food which is nice. Yeah. Then what el―yeah. (both chuckle) 00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:46.000 Are you here often? Are you in the area often? 00:38:46.000 --> 00:41:37.000 I am, yeah. Since I started this ambassador position―it’s a community ambassador job through the city and through the Chamber. Like I’m here like probably every work day. Like Monday through Friday for parts of the day. But, yeah. I’m always around Argyle. Which is nice, but you know like I never really thought―like literally after college, like I actually moved to Vietnam. So, I studied abroad in Vietnam the year after I studied in Budapest and Hungary. And then I came back, graduated, and then I’m like “Alright, I’m moving to Vietnam.” So, I moved with my two cousins from Texas and we lived there for like three-some years. And I never thought I was going to actually do any type of work in Chicago, let alone like this community. What I wanted to do was like international work, right? Like kind of relief work. I wanted to move back to Vietnam and do like more large-scale, non-governmental organization work. Because my uncle, one of my mom’s younger brothers, like he did a lot of relief work. And he also like moved to Vietnam and worked at Save the Children. He was the country director of Save the Children for a few years and we overlapped and actually he was able to get me an internship. So, I did like non-governmental work in Vietnam. I moved to Hội An (Hoi An), which is also in Quang Nam in central Vietnam and I worked for Lệ Lý Hayslip (Le Ly Hayslip). She is the author and there’s a movie that Oliver Stone did about her. It’s called like “What hea–Heaven and Earth” I think it’s called? So, she has an organization there and I worked for her for like a year. So, I’ve always thought like “Hey, I’m going to go back.” The only reason I came back to Chicago really was to go to grad school, to do like urban planning. But I did international planning, with the intention of like going back to Vietnam or living abroad. But it was like during that research and like during those years I worked in Uptown, and like a lot of my research pivoted to more local things and like more so like, um, research on Argyle. You know, like through the lens of urban planning it’s like cultural preservation of a community. You know, I saw that, you know, there’s a lot of gentrification happening. We’re right next to the lake. You know, property values are increased like―and I remember just coming back here and it’s just like this is–doesn’t feel like Argyle of my youth. You know, like I said earlier, like it just felt busy. People came here all the time. And it just didn’t feel that, and there was a lot of closures, a lot of, you know, different things. So, eventually, you know, like I got involved and did a lot of different things, post-graduation, for Argyle. And that’s what like really made me want to stay in this community. 00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:49.000 I saw a pattern, when you were talking just now, that you wanted to go back to Vietnam, and also your dad did, too, at some point. (Tran coughs) But neither it―I’m assuming your dad never went back to live. 00:41:49.000 --> 00:44:12.000 To live, no. But he did, when I lived there, he came to visit. Um, but he never―he even, yeah, growing up like even his later years, he always said like “I want return and live there.” But it never happened, you know. I still have a desire to like, you know, go back to Vietnam and like, maybe not live forever, because I don’t think there’s like―I mean this idea of impermanence is probably the only permanent thing. Like I would like to return to Vietnam and live again. I think it’s a different―I think for Vietnamese Americans to return to Vietnam and like live there, it’s a–it’s a–it’s a different experience in understanding your identity as just a Vietnamese American. Like it’s like–it’s–it’s in touch with your culture. But that culture has also progressed, you know? Like I think like the idea of―And there’s so many different waves of like immigration, of like refugees in the ‘90s. Up until now, there’s still Vietnamese people coming here. So, this idea of the Vietnamese American experience is always changing and always fluid. But the ones that, I think that first wave of people, like held on to a–a culture of Vietnam that is, in many ways, no longer, um, present in Vietnam today. It’s been forty, fifty years. That culture evolves and changes. So, like the idea of like going there, it’s like experiencing something new but familiar, you know, and that’s, like, exciting. But also, like realizing “Hey, I’m not–this is–I’m not from here, and I’m not―” Like I think for me it’s no longer the seeking out affirmation of identity but just living and learning and realizing that I–I have many friendships with like Vietnamese people in Vietnam and like realizing like we are―we had different lived experiences. But there is that–that common sort of like Vietnamese culture that always exists that is a bond, you know. So, I feel like that like going back was more about like learning and sustaining friendships and embracing something new. 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:36.000 Thank you. Um, you mentioned a common thread. This is a question I ask myself a lot as someone who is still trying to figure out the identity piece of myself. Like what, in your mind, what are those threads that make us–that make us Vietnamese or Vietnamese American? 00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:43.000 What makes us Vietnamese or Vietnamese American? 00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:44.000 That’s a hard question, I know. 00:44:44.000 --> 00:48:27.000 Yeah, that’s really hard. Um, yeah. Man. Well, I know for one, right? Like regardless of like whatever Vietnamese American experience there may be, or Vietnamese experience, like this is like cliché and lame, I think. But like literally like the easiest thing to say is food, right? I mean–I’ve think that transcends the Vietnamese culture too. I think like you―the easiest way to connect and relate to someone is over a meal, right? Like it’s–it is that. Um, and that’s the thing. Like everywhere I go in the U.S. or even the world, I always go to like Little Saigon or Viet Town or whatever it is. I remember in Prague, like I sought out like the Vietnamese area. So, it’s like always like I don’t know if it’s like food, but maybe that’s just like a metaphor for something larger, like the seeking of–of home, of–of ― And that’s the weird thing. Like I’m comfortable in my own skin yet you go and you seek a diaspora of your culture as if it’s―you’re missing something, you know? But, or maybe it’s just familiarity, I don’t know. It’s always like I want like a bowl of pho or a bánh mì (banh mi, a sandwich) or even something beyond, you know, those two common dishes like everywhere you go. So, I think food is like something that really kind of connects people. But like also maybe it’s that–that thing I’m alluding to like searching, even though you may be confident of your identity, it’s― I don’t know if we’re lost, you know? Especially if people within that like the refugee diaspora. Like you could be comfortable and get to a point of like “I am Vietnamese American.” But maybe there’s always something you’re searching for, um, that’s like subconscious. I don’t know. And I think that’s―and I do see that a little bit with like the people I work with on this block, right? Even with my–my business partner. It’s like “Hey, we want to create cultural events and things.” But, you know, because like the–the fear, the reason why I stayed here was like, it’s almost the fear of, like, erasure. Right. It’s like the fear of like―I mean you see half this block. It’s like, empty. So, it’s like if once this is erased, if it is, maybe part of your identity is gone too. I don’t know. I think I’m going on a tangent, but I― Yeah. Because like I–even though like, you know, a place doesn’t officially make who you are but those like lived experiences in the space, the public realm, the physical realm, it’s strong. Like there is like ― right? It evokes memories and memories is like what like you asked me earlier, like if― I’m going to be real sad when Double Happiness closes. Because that―I don’t know if the kids will take over. Like those are like—and memories fade. So, it’s like if this–if this place is like―and I think that’s why cultural preservation and, like, efforts to kind of sustain cultural corridors is vital, because place matters and it–it’s part of your identity. And I think like yeah, wherever I go it’s like finding that slice of home, you know. Yeah. I don’t know. 00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:34.000 Yeah. I think I know what you’re talking about. Like my, um―actually this is your interview. We’ll talk― 00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:37.000 Oh no. Go ahead. I do want to hear. 00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:40.000 You do? Okay. So, I was born in the Chicago suburbs. 00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:41.000 Oh, okay. 00:48:41.000 --> 00:49:17.000 And so my–my parents lived in the suburbs, and my–my bà ngoại (ba ngoai) lived with them. And so, she always wanted to come here to Argyle to go grocery shopping. I have no memory of that because I was like four when we left,to go to San Diego. But when I came back, knowing that she had been here just felt like a connection to her, you know? (starts to cry) Yeah, it just felt–I’ve just felt like a connection to her, even though I had never seen her on this block or, anything like I was there with her, so― 00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:22.000 Yeah. That’s the power of place, and knowing, right? 00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:27.000 Yeah. Our identity is built on place. It really is. I mean this whole project is–is about place. 00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:29.000 Yeah. 00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:32.000 Vietnamese–Vietnam and America. So, yeah. I get you. 00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:34.000 Thanks for sharing that. 00:49:34.000 --> 00:50:11.000 Yeah. (chuckles) I (pause) definitely have follow-up questions but I don’t know where to go with them. You mentioned that Vietnamese Americans are a monolith. I mean, not a monolith, sorry. (both chuckle) So, and we talked about like what’s a common thread, which is really hard to answer. But thank you for doing a good job with that. Um, how do you find yourself different from other Vietnamese Americans? And I don’t mean better or worse. Just different. 00:50:11.000 --> 00:52:48.000 No, I think there are a lot of differences. I think like, you know, like I’ve–I have a lot of Vietnamese American friends that lived in Vietnam with me, right? So, we–and we had that shared experience of like Việt Kiều (Viet Kieu, overseas Vietnamese, or the Vietnamese diaspora) living in Vietnam. But we were different as well. Like they grew up in larger diasporas of Vietnamese community, like SoCal or Orange County, you know. And I think like being—the difference might be—number one—like you know, language. The embracing of like what is considered the dominant idea of Vietnamese American culture. Yeah, I feel like—dang, this is hard to explain. Like the difference lies in (sighs)—See the thi–, the idea is like, “what is Vietnamese?” To me it’s like–it’s hard to even like grasp, right? Like and it’s like almost like if you start identifying things it becomes like oh this stereotypical thing. Um, but I don’t know. There’s a guy on Instagram, Sup Dawk. He always like shows like Chú Hài (Chu Hai), like those like—That’s like real Vietnamese, like karaoke, you know. Those are like, you know, it’s kind of stereotypical Vietnamese. Like I feel like, I mean, if–if you want to point to something like, I mean, yeah, you see it in Vietnam all over. And like Vietnamese American communities like nhậu (nhau, drinking and socializing), you know. In a way, those represent community in a way, right? I think like–I think the heart of it is like is collectivism of shared experience and shared identity. And where I think I differ oftentimes and that–that’s why I think, even today like working in this community like the difference it boils down to like this idea of like–of more individualistic kind of outlook on life. Even though I’m part of a community and I engage in community, but like there are certain boundaries that I draw within my own identity. And I think that’s not a very “Vietnamese” thing, I would say. I think that’s, I think, more of a western concept. Um, so I mean I don’t even know where I’m getting at, maybe like the idea of a more collective experience versus a more kind of insular approach to life and straddling those two kind of thoughts. 00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:53.000 Tell me more about having boundaries around your identity. 00:52:53.000 --> 00:54:02.000 You know, like just like simple things like I’m on the block I used to work at—Southeast Asia Center—as a case worker, or a social service case worker. So, I had a lot of Vietnamese clients, like of many generations. And like the other day I ran into one of my clients. He is an older gentleman, like former Viet–South Vietnam vet. (clears throat) And he knows I used to work for the—like just boundaries like asking like “Oh, oh, you–you make more better money now” type of like “Oh, you look like fatter now.” It’s like that ease of that generation and how I—because I may be born here and have inherited, you know, different cultural learnings, that’s a little weird to me. And like “No. I’m not going to tell you how much I make.” And like it’s like, you know, so, it’s like kind of like navigating that, those like minor hiccups or maybe conflicts on a daily–or when you interact with like different generations. 00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:03.000 Okay. 00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:41.000 The expectation of what it is to be Vietnamese or you lose your roots, you know. It’s like I think a certain generation is going to say “Oh, you mat goc,” or you—all that stuff. But like have we really? Like have we lost our roots? Maybe we just have a different identity, you know, rather than like having this one monolith mold of what it is to be Vietnamese. I think it’s—for any ident–for any culture, any race. Like there’s no one. That’s–I think that’s dangerous, right? But yeah. I don’t know if that answers the question. 00:54:41.000 --> 00:55:02.000 Yeah. It absolutely did. Thank you. How do—This is going to be another tough one. I’m sorry. How do people in the Vietnamese American community see you? 00:55:02.000 --> 00:56:10.000 I don’t know how they see me. I can–I feel like I have a perception of how they perceive me. I don’t fully know, right? I don’t think like we can fully know how they see you. I think it varies between like what are, you know, the generations and the subcultures of Vietnamese people. I think for the peop–like the younger generation here and then especially with the work like kind of like activating space and doing like creative projects I think like, not only the Vietnamese American youth or people in my generation but like, you know, other Asian Americans, look at like me and my business partner who have HAIBAYÔ (HAIBAYO) as like kind of, you know, creative—maintaining not only Vietnamese culture but like Vietnamese American culture and treating experiences that are lived, not of the past but like it’s currently going on. But, wait. The question was, how do you think people view you, right? 00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:11.000 Mm-hmm. 00:56:11.000 --> 00:59:25.000 I really don’t know. Like I think like there’s a sense of—when I see the older generation of people—it varies. Like I think there’s some people—My perception, and maybe it’s clouded of, you know, oftentimes like self-doubt and like my own insecurities of things, anxiety, whatever. I might feel like “Oh, they’re like—maybe they think I’m not Vietnamese enough.” You know, maybe they like, you know, I’m not doing the same things they’re doing. You know, I’m not like—And even you often don’t see many like—I think in the Vietnamese diaspora of the older generation of success of a younger person is like, right, you–you’ve heard that “oh, if you’re a doctor or lawyer…like how are you going to make money?” Like I haven’t followed that path and like none of my cousins and like a lot of people—and that’s the thing too. Like a lot of Vietnamese Americans that I connect with don’t follow that path. So, I think like even within —there’s a divide between like the people that don’t follow that trajectory of like just making money and more people who follow more creative pathways to like their own career. I think I resonate more with that subculture anyway. So, like I’m surrounded by those people and a lot of them are Vietnamese American. So, like with those people like I feel like there’s just common understanding because like we— But sometimes when I’m in circles where there’s like “Hey, I’m like doctor, accountant…” like there’s not much of a connect beyond the surface level things, right? Oh like food, small talk, things like that. But I think it’s like, that’s the difference within this generation. But yeah. With an older generation of Vietnamese American, like I don’t know. Sometimes I feel like I hear compliments. Sometimes I–I hear people say like “You, you’re not even Viet—” like, you know. So, it varies. But what I—my perception it’s–it’s a whole gamut of like how people view you. And you can’t control that ultimately, you know. I can’t control if they view me that way and–and is it even worth it to–to make me lose sleep. Sometimes, you know, those who matter don’t mind and those who mind don’t matter, I guess. But, yeah, you can’t—for me, I don’t really—yeah, I don’t know. Like I used to like really care about that in terms of like—or not care, but like it would eat me up. Like yeah, like, fuck, am I Vietnamese enough for this person? But like everyone has a different opinion. It’s like a bowl of pho. What’s good pho? You know? I recently made like more northern pho and gave it to southern people. They hate it! Because it’s too salty. It’s— pho is supposed to be sweet for southerners, you know? So, it’s a challenge, yeah. Like I used to let it like really eat–eat away at me but at this point like you can only live your most authentic self, whatever that may be. Yeah. 00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:35.000 What about your parents? Did they ever try to instill some sense of what–what you should be as a person or as a Vietnamese person? 00:59:35.000 --> 01:01:38.000 Yeah. I think like number one where it was like language, I would say. Um, and that—my Vietnamese has like only gotten better because I lived in Vietnam and like I worked in community. But like—and also I made an effort to try to practice it more. But like I didn’t really—like in my teen years, I never even really spoke Vietnamese. And like at that age I never would engage with people. Like my people our age, like I would just speak English. I still speak English with my cousins, you know? Um, but yeah. There was always that kind of language aspect. Um, just like weird customs—not weird but it’s like customs that could be conflicting with like, you know, things here. I don’t know. But it—I don’t feel like—I think both my sister and I were—we pushed the envelope. Like we challenged them a lot in terms of like— surprisingly, they were old, of a older generation. Like the gap between my father and me is like 50 years and then my mom is like in her 70s. So, they’re like a little older than, you know, some other Vietnamese folks. So, I think as someone of that generation to come here, like you would imagine them being extremely traditional. And they–they in some ways they are. But I think like that relationship and of realizing too like “Hey.” I don’t know. I’ve never talked to them about this. But maybe like they’ve accepted like “Hey, this is like who my–who my kids are.” And like you can instill and try to push for certain preserv–preservation of certain cultural customs here and there. But also realizing that maybe, yeah, maybe like you can’t fully pass everything down —I think. I mean, yeah. That’s how I feel. 01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:48.000 Okay. Last question on this topic. How do you see yourself? 01:01:48.000 --> 01:03:57.000 How do I see myself? I guess in the realm of identity, of culture, if we’re talking about Vietnamese American, yeah, I–I feel like I’m one of many identities of what Vietnamese American is, and it’s always evolving. I see myself as— I don’t like to say like certain things, like about—you know, like toot my own horn but like I feel like I am becoming one of the community leaders of this area. I take like—you know, I’m honored to do that, to be one of many who are, you know, stepping up in this second generation and trying to preserve culture but also like creating new and fresh things that tie to a culture. So, like, yeah. I view myself as someone who cares about, you know, this–this specific community of Argyle and the Vietnamese community here in Chicago. Because it’s not big. It’s not, you know? And it ties back to self, of home. Like how can I sustain it so that part of me is not gone? Um, but yeah. I don’t know. Like I don’t–I don’t really think about—or I haven’t for a long time thought about—what it means as my identity of Vietnamese American. I haven’t—it’s been a while actually. I think I would say that I’m more confident in–in the cultural, whatever those cultural components that I–that I hold onto and that I value. I’m more confident in that now than I was like 20 years ago. Um, but yeah. I don’t—That’s–that’s a hard question. (starts to chuckle, and Ho joins in) 01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:03.000 That’s good that you haven’t really thought about it. In my mind, that’s —it sounds like you found peace then within yourself. 01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:16.000 Yeah. I think––yeah, I do feel that I’m at more at peace in terms of that–that realm of identity than I was before. 01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:25.000 Um, so you mentioned that you, everywhere you go, you look for Little Saigon or whatever, wherever the diaspora is. 01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:26.000 Yeah. 01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:42.000 So, we’re talking about place now. Um, what are some–what are some places, what are some cities where–where the–where you find that the community is really interesting or exceptional in some way? 01:04:42.000 --> 01:08:37.000 Yeah. Let me think. Okay. I have to think back at all those Little Saigons I’ve been to. Well, I mean the obvious is probably like foodwise and like just the level of like claiming space and calling the space home. I feel like the bigger areas where there’s more Vietnamese people, there’s just so much diversity and food experience that you can get, right? I’ve been at L.A. a few times but I always like go and visit my friends that live down there and like, it feels like in a way —and that’s why I think Little Saigons are created. It’s like Vietnam in many ways or whatever that Vietnam may be. So, it’s like a sense of ease. So, like San Jose is huge too. I’ve been there a few times. But I think like the most–the ones that stand out in my mind and that what’s most interesting actually might be probably like eastern Europe because it’s a different diaspora. And it’s a different migration pattern than the Little Saigon or, you know, Saigon whatever. Because there I don’t think they don’t call it Little Saigon. It’s more the northern folk that went to the former eastern bloc and lived there and created community there. So, it’s like a completely different experience. But there’s still like this idea–like I remember like in Budapest too when I was living there. Like I sought out Vietnamese people. And it was a completely different identity than my own, right, than my parents. They fought –these are people that I guess in a way won the war, right? They’re not the ones that fled because of like the collapse of Saigon. They went for economic opportunity or they were part of like the communist government back then or as diplomats. But they built their community there. So, I think those are interesting. Like it–it doesn’t resonate or there’s no strong tie to my own experience and my family’s experience. But there is still like this weird human connection of being Vietnamese. Even the politically—it’s so different, right? And I remember like hung out with like a bunch of like, you know, northern Vietnamese people. This was after I studied abroad in Vietnam, too. So, in a way I was more open to that, you know? But I–I think like east, like Czech Republic, like Prague, was interesting. Budapest’s Vietnamese community was interesting. But I also like find Paris really interesting, because that’s like a lot of Vietnamese people there are like—probably went there even before ’75, you know. So, it’s like this understanding of identity of are they more French or are they more—? and like the food is different, you know. So, I found that to be the historical layers of–of migration and also identity within those communities differ. But there’s always this wanting to go there and eating the food and learning about the Vietnamese community despite all of that. I mean, yeah. Those are—I’m trying to—there’s no–there’s—I was in Mexico recently but there’s no Vietnamese town. But I went to Chinatown though which is interesting. But yeah. I would really be interested in seeing more Viet towns. I mean I think mostly it’s in the U.S., you know, like the places where people went. But eastern Europe was interesting. 01:08:37.000 --> 01:08:59.000 Um, hmm. Okay. Um, who are some of the community leaders around here that people should know about. And actually, I wanted to talk about Jenny Pham and how–how did you two initially meet? 01:08:59.000 --> 01:14:02.000 Our parents are friends. So, they knew each other. So, my dad—So, there’s like a whole group of people who graduated from this program in Da Lat. It’s like a college in Da Lat, Vietnam. It’s called Chính trị, Kinh doanh (Chinh tri, Kinh doanh), so it’s like political and business major at Da Lat University. So, my dad —that group kind of met because they all are like alumni. (coughs) And her mom—sorry, excuse me—her mom was an alumni. My father was an alumni. (sniffles) And also there was another gentleman. His name is Tâm. Nguyễn Văn Tâm (Nguyen Van Tam). He is a community leader here. He actually works with me as an Ambassador Program. But he worked for many, many years at Vietnamese Association of Illinois. And now he’s at CMAA. But he’s like in his 80s. So, he’s like been a community leader consistently for the last–since he’s come here since the early 80s. But yeah. Like me and Jennifer, our parents know each other through that circle. We used to play piano together. There was a Vietnamese lady from Hue. Her name was like Cô Lạc Nhân (Co Lac Nhan). And she lived, surprisingly funny, on Mozart Avenue. And she had like 50 Vietnamese students, piano students. So, like through that too, like there was that community. So, I played piano with her and her brother. And she was like part of Viet — like just the same circle of growing up. But she’s a little older than me. So. then I hung out more with her brother at the time we were younger. (sniffles) Um, but that’s how I know her. And then we—actually we never really kept in touch. Like we would always know that we’re around. Like I ran into her like in Chicago like a few times here and there. But it wasn’t until like mid-2010s, 2015-16 or whatever where we reconnected. I was actually—I started another organization with a former friend who was also part of this community. She’s Tam’s— Chú Tam’s (Chu Tam’s) daughter. So, she was like, you know, grew up with us and so she’s younger than us a little. But her and I along with another few people actually started Axis Lab. But there was like challenges in working together. Um, just differences on vision. I think they still exist but I don’t know how functional they are. But her and I are co-founders of that. I eventually left. And then Jennifer was part of it but then she left as well. And her and I reconnected. We connected like prior to Axis Lab. Like we invited Jennifer in through that like kind of like that relationship was forged again and that friendship. And then after we both left like we connected. Hey, we wanted to like do something again on Argyle like maybe a year after. And that’s how HAIBAYO initially started. And I think you’ve been to a few—like it was really like more of like, Hey, you know, a lot of what Axis Lab did was really beautiful, right? It was like really curated, well thought out. But sometimes it’s a challenge working with–with pe—you know. Not everyone can work together. Um, but like, yeah. We started HAIBAYO and just kind of wanted to make it like a fun party. But also, that had culture, right? Like there was like food. We always had a food vendor. And we worked with the business on this block. Like at each different event it was always a different food restaurateur. (sniffles) And like I think you–like when you had Lawrence and Argyle you were at one or two of those events. You know, like so like building those networks and curating something that was within the younger or second generation Asian American identity yet also kind of honoring the past. That’s how we, yeah–that’s how we–I reconnected with her. And she–her father I think was like the first Vietnamese business owner on this block. Because this area used to be, prior to the fall of Saigon and a lot of influx of refugees from Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos, this area used to be more Chinese. So, there was a–I think it was like after the Tong Wars, you know, like with the Chinese Chinatown Tongs. Like Chinatown on the south side is run by like one Tong which is now like more of an association rather than, you know, its checkered past. And then here it’s Hip Sing which has like connections to San Francisco and New York. So, they actually came here first and bought up all the land and buildings. This was like kind of a, what urban planners like to say blighted, right? A blighted area. And people just started coming here after, you know, the war, and it became more southeast Asian and more Vietnamese even though there’s still a lot of Chinese. And a lot of ethnic Chinese from Vietnam came here, as well. So, I don’t even know where I’m getting. But anyhow like I think like, yeah. I forgot where I–what direction I’m going in. 01:14:02.000 --> 01:14:07.000 Um, we were talking about Jenny’s family’s business. 01:14:07.000 --> 01:15:02.000 Oh, yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah. He was like the first Vietnamese business because it was mostly Chinese businesses, and she is still part of—And that pharmacy (Mini Thương Xá Pharmacy, Mini Thuong Xa Pharmacy) is still here. And I think, I don’t want to speak for her. But she does––one thing she tells me, and often, and she does say it and she shares with other people like her–she herself didn’t think she was going to stay here either. But she said that there was a moment in the past where her dad was thinking about retiring and selling this pharmacy, this family pharmacy, to like CVS. And that sparked something in her that brought her back here. And through that and, you know, she has her own journey and her own story which I’m not going to say for her. But that one thing like, through that, I think that allowed us to reconnect. (clears throat and sniffles) 01:15:02.000 --> 01:15:22.000 You’ve talked about this a little bit. But what do you think it is that–that keeps us doing what you were doing. And I guess when I say “us” I mean people like you and–and her. Um, is it obligation? Is it, um, you’ve mentioned fear of erasure? 01:15:22.000 --> 01:19:54.000 I think it’s more like for a lot–I’ll speak independent for me. Like I’ve said in many past interviews with folks that it’s like carrying on the cultural legacy of our parents. And to a certain degree, I still believe that but a lot of this work I think too is for one’s self and for others like us, um, of like a younger generation. Because we can’t move backward. We can only move forward. And you can never forget where you come from either. So like honoring those past histories but also thinking about the now and the challenges that exist now. And yeah. Are we going to exist? We’ll always exist as independently into the future regardless of the spaces here or not. But is that value of like that fear of erasure of–of displacement of like, you know. Like I could just go to a Vietnamese restaurant but like there’s something else about when you–you go to a corridor or a larger community that is your diaspora and you have those connections and you have like—That’s why like Chinatowns, Little Saigons are important, right? And the cultural preservation of these cultural districts is vital because of like—it is identity. It is community and–and it’s okay to have like ethnic enclaves in cities. I don’t—A lot of people say like “Oh, I don’t want to be, you know, labelled as like just living in a Chinatown.” But those are like—it–there’s a beauty in having that space and honoring and carrying on those cultural legacies and also evolving, adapting to what it is that is your identity. I think like we did get a large grant to open up a cultural events space and that’s gonna—It’s not gonna be like—It’s going to be our own experience because our visions and our experience will, you know, will define that space, you know. So, it is–it’s Vietnamese American, and we really want to push like the history of Argyle storytelling and highlighting other people. But yeah, as I think it’s important, right? Especially for this community right now. There’s so many vacancies and like, how do we mobilize now because there’s so many external forces that are going to impact this area in a negative way, right? The–there’s—for years there was this Streetscape project that took two to three years that impacted local businesses. The CTA (Chicago Transit Authority, or in this instance, specifically the “el” or elevated train) is getting fixed right now. You know, obviously like it’s good to have like infrastructure that is ADA accessible. But also a lot of small businesses are hurt. There’s been like nine closures since the pandemic and this train system, or this train construction happened during that time. So, yeah. They’re like—So now is the time of like, how do we connect with other community leaders? And collectively like start envisioning and identifying the challenges and the opportunities and things like that to sustain this cultural legacy of this area. And the good thing is like the governor of this state in 2021 passed a bill saying like certain areas, geographic areas could be culture districts. So, I don’t know what that looks like on a hyperlocal level, but that is a law in the state of Illinois. Um, but I’m very excited about the future. Even though like now is like—I think there’s so much opportunity right now. This district elected the first Vietnamese American politician. He’s a friend of ours, Hoàn Huỳnh (Hoan Huynh). So, we work like with him like being connected to like CMAA, Chinese Mutual Aid Association. They were founded by a Vietnamese Chinese man, refugee, but have evolved and like done a lot of different really cool, innovative things for this area. So, just having like—And then there’s a–the alderperson is a Filipina–queer Filipina American woman that, you know— How do we kind of convene and really think about strategically carrying on this—or preserving this—culture in this district. Um, I think it’s–it’s critical, you know? 01:19:54.000 --> 01:19:56.000 So, you plan to stick around for a while and be part of the—. 01:19:56.000 --> 01:19:59.000 Yeah. I have. I plan to. 01:19:59.000 --> 01:20:11.000 That’s great. What is the definition of cultural district? Like how did they define it when they—or–or do you know? 01:20:11.000 --> 01:20:12.000 No. I need to look up that. 01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:25.000 Okay. (both laugh). No worries. Um, okay. So, I–so you’ve been–you’ve been back–you’ve been to Vietnam many times, it sounds like. 01:20:25.000 --> 01:20:26.000 No. I’ve only been there twice, actually. 01:20:26.000 --> 01:20:28.000 Oh really! 01:20:28.000 --> 01:20:41.000 Yeah. But, um, the first time was like study abroad. Then I went before and stayed after a little just to travel. So, that was like eight months or so, six–seven months. And then I moved back for like three years. 01:20:41.000 --> 01:20:42.000 Okay. 01:20:42.000 --> 01:20:50.000 But that was like twenty-eight to twenty-eleven, 2008 to 2011. So, I actually haven’t been back to Vietnam in thirteen years, or twelve years at this point. 01:20:50.000 --> 01:20:52.000 Okay. 01:20:52.000 --> 01:20:53.000 Um, and it’s changed probably drastically. 01:20:53.000 --> 01:20:54.000 I’m sure. 01:20:54.000 --> 01:20:55.000 Yeah. 01:20:55.000 --> 01:20:58.000 Yeah. Um, how are you doing on like energy right now? 01:20:58.000 --> 01:20:59.000 Oh, I’m good. 01:20:59.000 --> 01:21:00.000 You’re good? 01:21:00.000 --> 01:21:01.000 Yeah. 01:21:01.000 --> 01:21:03.000 What time is it? What time is it? 01:21:03.000 --> 01:21:04.000 12:16. 01:21:04.000 --> 01:21:20.000 Okay. Cool. Um, so I want to–I want to ask like how— I’m sure every time you go–both times you’ve gone to Vietnam, you’ve come back changed in some way, affected in some way. 01:21:20.000 --> 01:21:21.000 Yeah, I would say so. 01:21:21.000 --> 01:21:24.000 Can you–can you talk a bit about–about that? 01:21:24.000 --> 01:22:43.000 Yeah. I think the first time I went was— The reason why I went was like, you know, it tied to like that–the idea of identity. Um, also it was beyond just identity, right? Like for me, to go to Vietnam was also to–to learn about my dad’s—like it–it was not intentional. But I–what happened when I was there is that I met his family. (sniffles) You know, I met his brother. I met his older sister, and I met his entire family that he—really I never knew about in my entire life. And like to forge those relationships—it was like odd at first because like I didn’t know them. But they were so generous and close, right? Um, or o–being open to like this level of closeness. So, I found that really, for me, like really heartwarming to have this–this family in this faraway space that I’ve never met and like forging those relationships and creating lived experiences with them. So, that was like a very personal like family thing that I was buil–was able to build. Um, but yeah. I think like — Could you repeat the question one more time? 01:22:43.000 --> 01:22:47.000 Yeah. How did your trips there affect you? 01:22:47.000 --> 01:27:31.000 Oh, okay. Um, so yeah. On a personal level—family, it affected me that way. Identity-wise, it really, really like—There was a lot of things that I realized about my identity that I wasn’t like—I was searching like, am I Vietnamese, right? And I think like that became clearer—is that you could still embrace certain cultural customs and traditions and still be whatever you are. So, I think I–it–those years in Vietnam allowed me see like hey, you know, there are certain instances that I experienced that how I am, like a little more western. Um, and that–and I’m fine with that. So, like it solidified my own identity, as being like Vietnamese American, whatever that may mean. But also I think career-wise it really—like I worked in like different realms of like non-profit and like non-governmental in Vietnam. Um, and I think that kind of really solidified like my passion for working with community and building something with others. I saw a lot of poverty. I’ve seen things that like I never thought I would see, you know? Like going into the very rural areas and seeing poverty and lack of access and lack of resource was like eye-opening. I remember like driving up to the mountains in Da Nang and we were working with a family who the father was a south Vietnamese—he fought for the south. And his two sons who are like twenty—They were older than me at the time. Like I think I was like in my twenties. But they were like approaching thirty. They were like two brothers and they had like Agent Orange. And like because of his alliances with the south Vietnamese like they get nothing from the government. So, to see that this like completely different trajectory of like what it is to be Vietnamese from this place of war. Also like, you know, it humbled me, my–like myself in terms of how lucky I am to exist where I exist today. Because like I could have been completely different. And to see that in Vietnam, especially then my second time around, that’s where I worked. Like I worked with street youth. I worked—like it was things that you, living here I never thought. I mean there’s poverty here, right? There’s so many issues that exist in this country, with like any country. But like, yeah, that was—that impacted me in terms of like wanting to follow a certain path that is, you know, not about money. Because money doesn’t ultimately matter, you know, when— And also another thing I learned too is like, you know, despite—and this—I don’t like saying this. But there is a sense of like this human connection. In Vietnamese, they say like—and that’s where it’s interesting when I go back and talk about like this idea of like more individualistic and which I think there are the certain boundaries that I draw for myself and my identity. But like a lot of it too, like what I really found beautiful about Vietnam like they say like, “sống với tình cảm (song voi tinh cam),” like to live with like, you know, tinh cam, I think that means like–like emotion or human connection or something. And I think that’s very real, and I experienced in Vietnam. You can become friends with someone that you’re just sitting outside and having a coffee. I became friends with people because of that openness. And you learn about that person, and you forge whatever relationship you want to forge with them. And I do feel like I miss that especially when I came back to the states. Like I missed that human connection, you know. I felt very alienated here. And then, you know, over time now I don’t feel that. I feel like those kind of cultural, collective community bonds that exist within the Vietnamese culture happens here, right? Like it’s—despite like how much that I don’t know how people look at me, but like interacting with them and having that sense of community is like, it–in many w–yeah, it makes you feel part of something, you know. To feel accepted and to feel, yeah, to be part of something is important. So I think like those are the takeaways that I’ve—the key ones for me in my life from my experience in Vietnam, I would say. 01:27:31.000 --> 01:27:58.000 That’s great. Yeah. I feel like when I–when I came here, the community was very open and welcoming. So, I think that you and the people here have everything to do with that, that just sharing that openness. So, I definitely see that. Are there any questions about yourself, your identity that you’re still asking? 01:27:58.000 --> 01:29:09.000 Mmm. I don’t think so. I think I’m—I don’t question it. What I realize is that, yeah, like my identity will evolve to s—you know, like, and that’s the evolution of who we are is based off of different types of experiences. Like I don’t know like where we’ll be and how I’ll feel about myself and my identity of being Vietnamese American in a year or two years from now if, you know, when we open up space. There’s more—I don’t know, like, what I’ll be then. So, I think like it’s not more about questioning but it’s more about curiosity and being open to like letting life impact you. You have to take the good and the bad, I guess, and how that will change you and who you are. Yeah, because I feel like there’s going to be really great things for this community if we work together collect— (at this point, his phone rings) oh. 01:29:09.000 --> 01:29:10.000 Is that the alarm? 01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:32.000 Yeah. But yeah. If we work together and yeah, you–we change, you know. Like once you’re pushed onto like a larger stage of this community and building community, you embrace that change and you embrace that evolved identity of yourself. I don’t know. (laughs) 01:29:32.000 --> 01:29:53.000 No, that’s great. Thank you. I have two more questions. I know we’re super low on time. So, I’ll just ask them real quick. Um, what do you—so, there’s a–there’s a very contentious, often contentious relationship between the Black community and the Asian American community. 01:29:53.000 --> 01:29:55.000 Yeah. 01:29:55.000 --> 01:29:58.000 And I wanted to get your thoughts on that. 01:29:58.000 --> 01:34:05.000 Yeah. I mean I—you know when especially—that there is, right? I remember when a lot of that—it was a few years ago—I mean that’s still—I mean these issues happen today. I believe that, you know, there is a–an entire distrust and a gap or a lack of understanding between the Black and Asian community. And I think a lot of it, from the Asian perspective, is perpetuated within—I don’t know if it’s racism. I’ve seen it in Vietnam in the sense where oftentimes like this idea and this larger kind of idea of color, colorism, influences and–and–and makes way into someone’s mind of value of the human, right? Like in Vietnam if you work in the fields, you’re darker and you’re poor. And I think a lot of that has influenced certain people and like this cultural understanding of colorism of class and human worth which is—when you assess it, I mean, it’s fucked up. I think like—and also like the struggle of the Black community here it’s—for me, as an Asian American and Vietnamese American as much as there’s been trauma and hardship from our diaspora, there’s—like to be enslaved by white people for 400+ years and to suddenly be expected to—and that have no resources and still feel the racism, like to me I think that is atr–outrageous. And I think there needs to be more understanding from—like for us, like especially if our parents and the older generation hold onto these ideas of what they view as certain, you know, negative stereotypes of Black people, it’s our responsibility, if we don’t believe that, you break those barriers and talk to our parents, um, and talk to like those–the elders. Because it’s not okay. Like I think we can’t sit here and talk about like our trauma and our struggles and hope that the larger dominant racist society accepts us without doing the same to other communities of color. And there are similar threads but it’s incomparable in terms of like what Black people have experienced in this country versus like Vietnamese people. And I don’t want to play “oppression Olympics” but that is true, right? Like Vietnamese people weren’t slave–enslaved for 400 years here. Yeah, we were forced from our land politically, but we weren’t stripped from our land and viewed as not human. So, I think like it’s important for our generation and I think a lot of younger generations are—who live here and like, you know, when you live in America you’re embraced and you’re surrounded by other cultures and you learn and you expand and you grow. I think that’s critical in terms of like this idea of like, you know, the—of justice and equity. Um, a lot of younger generations even like after like Gen Z Asian Americans are way more open-minded than previous generations. But it’s–it’s going to take a lot of collective effort. But it does start with yourself and really challenging your beliefs. A lot of—I’ve talked to like other Asian Americans who don’t—like they just inherit this racist ideology from their parents, and they view Black people this way or this or that way. It’s like, yeah, you have to—you know, you have conversations, and you try to critically analyze why they think the why they do. And sometimes they just don’t care and that’s—but it does start with conversation and challenging those really kind of toxic, deadly beliefs. 01:34:05.000 --> 01:34:09.000 You mentioned having conversations with elders. Have you been able to do that? 01:34:09.000 --> 01:35:28.000 Yeah. Actually like a few years ago, I sent an email to like, my whole family, like all the elders about like Asians and like how—and Black Lives Matter. (sniffles) And there’s some people that didn’t respond because I think they probably hold on to those—I don’t know. But that–there’s family members that—I’m lucky enough that most of my family members actually are pretty liberal even in that generation. But there’s some that are, you know, that voted for Trump and that have consistently voted not in their own interests unless it’s just about money. I don’t know. But yeah. Like I sent an email and my father like wrote a whole thing and shared stuff like about Black Lives Matter. So, like that was like really—like I think I’m lucky because my mom and my dad like—my dad was an educator, I would say. Like that’s where I think he views himself even though he has like done different things. And my mom has been like a case–like a social worker working with youth and tons of immigrant families from like all over the world. So, like they inherited a lot more love for humanity and understanding and breaking down those barriers. And I think my sister and I inherited that, you know. 01:35:28.000 --> 01:35:43.000 That’s great. That’s awesome. Um, okay. So, I want to ask what’s next for you. But also, since we’re running low on time also if there’s anything else that you want to say. 01:35:43.000 --> 01:36:52.000 Mmm, what’s next for me? I think this is a new beginning. Um, not a new beginning because I’m–I think like there’s so many new doors opening not only for me but like for me as an individual that’s part of this community, this Vietnamese American community in Chicago. I think there’s so many exciting—I mean there’s going to be a lot of work and a lot of challenges. But I think the pathways to like really –I wouldn’t say elevate but like really solidifying and making this community stronger is–is endless and boundless. So, I’m excited about that and I think that’s my role in–as one segment of the–the larger collective and that is exciting. So, and that’s I think next steps. Um, (coughs) do I want to say anything else? Mmm… 01:36:52.000 --> 01:36:57.000 It could also be, um, anything about your parents you want to share. 01:36:57.000 --> 01:36:58.000 Oh, okay. 01:36:58.000 --> 01:36:59.000 I mean anything— 01:36:59.000 --> 01:37:01.000 Oh. It could be anything. 01:37:01.000 --> 01:37:12.000 Oh, yeah, anything at all. Um, but if you wanted to like share a memory that maybe your dad told you about or something just so that it’s stated so that when you’re gone one day, it’ll be— 01:37:12.000 --> 01:38:18.000 I think like I was—this–earlier this year, I was faced with something very scary. I don’t know if I really mentioned it earlier in this interview. But there is this like emotional disconnect with my parents. Like even though I love them, there’s—it’s a challenge for me to like share how fully I feel. And like my father was actually like struck by a vehicle in January. And like the police came and said—I woke up to my mom crying. Like we thought he died. So, like I think like it’s important—it is a challenge and there’s inherited trauma of–of–of all of us, of Vietnamese American. Our parents come from war. Our parents come from things that we can’t even imagine. And there is things that—I’m not saying that inherent trauma is right, the way they raised us. They were trying to figure out their own way. So, like it was eye opening to me that—to see that my dad could have died in the short time I have left with him. It’s too—Oh man. I feel like I’m going to cry. 01:38:18.000 --> 01:38:23.000 That’s okay. 01:38:23.000 --> 01:39:22.000 It’s like (sighs) yeah, like really—as hard as it may be, like try to understand your parents and like break down those barriers before it’s too late. Because I’m lucky that he’s still alive and my mom’s still here. But I don’t want to have regrets, you know. And I understand like it’s—we all have—like I feel like there’s the way I was raised, it’s–it’s inherited that they contributed to like mental health and like end of the—like there’s something like once you’re gone, you’re gone. And if you don’t say what you need to say or reconcile what you need to reconcile, you’ll never have a chance. So, I think like I’m trying to figure that out and work on that. Because like that was–that was hard. And it’s like still like a path towards healing right now. But yeah. I want to just end at that. 01:39:22.000 --> 01:39:36.000 Okay. Thank you. Um, thank you for taking the time to sit down with me and chat with me. This–this project is–um, a big part of it is–is for a path towards healing for our generation. 01:39:36.000 --> 01:39:37.000 Yeah. 01:39:37.000 --> 01:39:41.000 Because we do have a whole lot of inherited trauma that we’ve been given. So— 01:39:41.000 --> 00:00:00.000 No, thank you for the opportunity to, you know, share and just speak. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_access.xml TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tran, Hac. Interview April 25, 2023. Description An account of the resource Hac Tran is a Vietnamese American community organizer. In this interview he shares his parents' immigration stories, his childhood growing up in Chicago, and his work in the cultural district of Asia on Argyle in the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago. Hac also speaks about living and studying in Vietnam and how these experiences shaped him personally. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-107 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-25 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hac Tran Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Chicago--History; Vietnam; Cultural heritage Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Chicago (Ill.); Milwaukee (Wis.); Budapest (Hungary); Czech Republic; Saigon (Vietnam); Đà Nẵng (Vietnam); Đà Lạt (Vietnam); Hội An (Vietnam); Quảng Nam--Đà Nẵng (Vietnam) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Hac Tran Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c71f7756a4ca050fbb015bad6116977f.pdf c9b281fd02c8936368d9a7c9f289910d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tran, Hac. Interview transcript, April 25, 2023 Description An account of the resource Hac Tran is a Vietnamese American community organizer. In this interview he shares his parents' immigration stories, his childhood growing up in Chicago, and his work in the cultural district of Asia on Argyle in the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago. Hac also speaks about living and studying in Vietnam and how these experiences shaped him personally. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hac Tran Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Melissa Martin Jennifer Ho Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-25 Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Chicago--History; Vietnam; Cultural heritage Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Chicago (Ill.); Milwaukee (Wis.); Budapest (Hungary); Czech Republic; Saigon (Vietnam); Đà Nẵng (Vietnam); Đà Lạt (Vietnam); Hội An (Vietnam); Quảng Nam--Đà Nẵng (Vietnam) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Hac Tran Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_transcript Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Ho Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Amy Vo OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=VoAmy_HoJennifer_2022-11-10.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Vietnamese American identity OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Vo, Amy. Interview November 10, 2022. SC027-108 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the CSUSM Faculty Center's Professional Development Grant. csusm Vietnamese American identity community immigration Vietnam Amy Vo Jennifer Ho moving image VoAmy_HoJennifer_2022-11-10.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2400e2e5d03836344481cb1337ea99f1.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Amy Vo, November 10, 2022, by Jennifer Ho. 0 37 Migration, childhood and community Amy talks about her childhood spent in the U.S. and overseas, and the Vietnamese communities in these regions. She also shares her parents’ migration stories. Tulsa ; Saint Francis Hospital ; Saigon/Ho Chi Minh City ; Vinh Long ; Hanoi ; Vietnam ; Vietnamese community ; Brunei ; refugee camps ; political division ; communism ; Krispy Kreme ; New York ; Chino Hills ; La Brea ; petroleum engineering ; Unocal ; Chevron ; San Jose ; Louisiana ; Dallas ; Alabama ; conservative community ; Republican ; Singapore ; Islam ; Islam/Muslim ; Chinese Buddhist ; Bangkok, Thailand ; employee resource groups ; Princetonians ; LGBTQIA ; New Jersey ; Philadelphia ; Los Angeles ; Japanese ; Chinese 0 2139 Vietnamese identity Amy reflects on her Vietnamese identity and how it was influenced by her time overseas as well as her life at home. Japanese, Taiwanese, Indian, American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, British 0 2508 Mom's cooking Amy shares her childhood memories of her mother’s cooking and the ways in which her mom has been expanding her culinary skillset. She talks about how her mom teaches people to cook, and her favorite thing her mom makes. accountant ; NHK ; meals ; Korean food ; Japanese food ; Asian food ; Italian food ; cha gio ; bun rieu ; curry 0 3120 Grandparents and language Amy talks about her grandparents on both sides, and her relationships with them. She also addresses language and how it limits her ability to interact with Vietnamese people. ba ngoai ; ba noi ; Tulsa ; Dallas ; Japanese occupation ; Vietnamese language ; KFC ; language fluency ; language loss 0 4059 What does it mean to be a Vietnamese person? In this section, Amy reflects on how her parents indirectly taught her about Vietnamese heritage, including traditions and communication styles. Religion ; tradition ; communication 0 Oral history Amy Vo is an archivist in New Jersey. In this interview, she shares her experiences growing up in cities and countries around the world and her experiences being the only Vietnamese American person in these places. She also reflects on her heritage and what it means to be in community with other Vietnamese people.&#13 ; NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:29.000 This is Jennifer Ho interviewing Amy Vo for Children of Refugees, an oral history project on the Vietnamese American experience. Today is November 10, 2022, 10:36 a.m. Pacific Time and we are meeting via Zoom. Thanks for being here with me today, Amy. 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000  00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:31.000 Thanks, Jenn. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:37.000 Yeah, all right. So, let’s just get into it. Tell me when and where you were born. 00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:45.000 I was born (redacted), 1988, in Tulsa, Oklahoma in Saint Francis Hospital. (chuckles) 00:00:45.000 --> 00:01:00.000 Okay. All right. Cool! And tell me about your parents. Where did they come from? And tell me about their migration story. 00:01:00.000 --> 00:02:37.000 Um, I guess generally I broadly know that my parents both grew up in Sài Gòn (Saigon). So, and my dad also spent some time in the country outside of Saigon in Vĩnh Long (Vinh Long). And my mom’s family originally came from the north, like a couple of hours outside of Hà Nội (Hanoi). And they had to move down. I only learned this recently, actually, like a few months ago, that my mom’s family moved down, I think in the ‘50s or ‘60s. And like if they hadn’t, then her father would have been killed, which is kind of crazy to learn. And I feel like that happens a lot in our family where we learn these like really fundamental or like huge details. I wouldn’t even call them details. They’re like really big events in like our family history that aren’t even talked about or mentioned until, you know, I’m 34, so like 34 years later. Yeah. But–but then they spent most of their like childhoods and, I guess, young adulthoods in Saigon. My mom left maybe when she was in her early twenties, I think, or maybe when she was twenty or late teens. 00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:40.000 She left Việt Nam (Vietnam) to come to the U.S.? 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:53.000 Yeah. She left like the day that Saigon fell in ’75. And my dad left later, in ’78 or ’79. 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:57.000 Okay. Did they already know each other in Vietnam? 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:19.000 No! They happened to meet each other in Tulsa, because they both started going to college at the University of Tulsa. And I think, if I’m remembering correctly, it’s my–my aunt, one of my mom’s younger sisters, who knew my dad somehow. And that’s how they met, through her. 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:20.000 Okay. 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:48.000 Yeah. Yeah. I mean the–I–I think the Vietnamese community was pretty small in–in Tulsa, Oklahoma, or like growing actually because I heard that there are a lot of Vietnamese people who are still there now. But I imagine it’s like a smaller community on campus which is like where they mostly met people. 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:59.000 Okay. When they came to the U.S., did they land directly in Tulsa or were there like a few stops along the way? Did they stay in a camp somewhere? 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:50.000 (nods) Yeah. I’m not a hundred percent sure about my mom. I know she did stay in a camp somewhere, but I don’t remember where it was. And my dad had quite a journey between leaving Vietnam and coming to Tulsa. And he started writing about it recently. And like what I knew before was that he went to Brunei. But I don’t think that’s where his–the camp was that he stayed at. But, um, I’m not sure. And I know that before they came to Tulsa, at least for my dad, his older sister was already in Arkansas. So, yeah. I’m not sure about like the timeline at all. 00:04:50.000 --> 00:05:10.000 Okay. Okay. That’s very interesting. If we could back track for a moment, and–and if you want to share, do you know why your mom’s family had to move around? You said your grandfather might have been killed. (Vo nods) Do you know anything about that, that you would want to share? 00:05:10.000 --> 00:06:13.000 Um, from what I understand, it had to do with politics because the north was more communist and I think—I know that when they went to the south, like my uncles joined the military in south Vietnam and then maybe some other family members were working with the government, or in the government, because that was part of why they–my mom was able to leave by, I think, helicopter like the day that Saigon fell. So, I think that was part of it. Yeah. And–and then my understanding of history is fuzzy too, because I know like ‘50s and ‘60s there are already like things happening in the country leading up to the–the war and America joining in that, in conflict with the— I don’t know. 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:20.000 Okay. Okay. Has your mom said anything about the journey? 00:06:20.000 --> 00:09:44.000 She is not a storyteller the way that my dad is. My dad likes telling stories and when we were young like, you know, elementary school age before middle school, he would tell us stories about growing up and his childhood. And so, I always felt like I knew more about my dad. And then my mom kind of thinks— It’s interesting, because maybe the past few years, I started calling my mom almost every morning on my way to work or on my way home from work to talk to her. And then she would tell me stories like that, which is why I think she told me about like why her family left the north. Because she will start like reminiscing. But before that if we were talking and I–my brother and I would ask a question, she’s like “I don’t really remember a lot” or something or say something like that which is why I thought she didn’t have a lot of stories. But she obviously does. Like when she gets into the—when something sparks her memory, she’ll think and talk about it at length. But when you ask her like a more general question, maybe, she’ll have more trouble just thinking of a memory. But then lately she’ll–she’ll talk more about the day that she left and she’ll— Two of the things she always mentions about leaving Vietnam is how it’s related to food. Like her cousin had really severe asthma. And then she’ll say, “It was miraculous. Like the soldiers gave us a can of tuna and he ate it. And then his asthma was gone!” And–or something like that. And then also she said that when they first came to America, they were handing out donuts and she didn’t know—or they were handing out these baked goods, which were donuts. But she didn’t know what they were. And then she asked like “What are these?” Because they were amazing. And she learned about donuts and I was like “That makes so much sense.” She only told us that memory in the past few years. So, it makes so much sense now to me why she loves donuts so much. Like she’s so–she’s so like passionate about Krispy Kreme donuts and like she’ll buy a dozen or half dozen donuts and she’s the type of person who’ll only eat like this much of the donut (indicates a small pinch with her right hand) and she’ll cut a little slice (indicates cutting slices with her hand) off of a donut and eat it throughout the day. (both laugh) But, yeah, she does have like stories like that. But I’ve only started to learn more about those stories that she has because of the—I don’t know—just the way she is about sharing and memory, I think. 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:51.000 So, why do you think she’s recently started opening up about her background and her–her life? 00:09:51.000 --> 00:11:15.000 I think part of it is like for a while it would take me like forty minutes to drive home from work when I was commuting to New York, like the forty minute, thirty minutes to get home from the train station. And then now I have like about forty minutes of driving and walking to work and that’s a lot of time. And–and she will sometimes just talk. And also, I think being older now we’re at a different place in our relationship, as well. I had to—Someone asked me like what my relationship was like with my mother growing up and I was—I thought that was an interesting question. Because it’s like she was my mom, but we didn’t share things with each other like thoughts and feelings. (laughs). But I don’t know how it’s different now, like how–how and why that changes as you get older. I’m still thinking about that. 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:28.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. And what about your dad? You said he’s kind of a storyteller. Has he said anything about his journey? 00:11:28.000 --> 00:14:04.000 He says a lot of stuff. (laughs) And I think, you know, like with a lot of things you kind of start shaping the narrative as–as you keep telling it over and over. So, even when we were young, he told us about going to Brunei and he left on a boat with a bunch of other people and how he–he had to—like, they were running out of water and food. And he jumped off the boat with two other people to swim to shore to kind of–to get help or to like see if they could land there or anchor there. And then like now that I’m saying it, like I was maybe nine or so. So, my brother would have been like six, seven. But he would tell us about how those two other people who jumped in with him probably were eaten by sharks because they were never found again, after they jumped off the ship to swim to shore and also that when he got to shore, he got really sick and was put in a jail. And like–like those were the details he told us as children. But then–then when he started writing his memoir, there were so many more details to it like that I never thought of but are, I guess, are obvious. Like how far the swim was from the boat to shore. Like he said it took him almost all day, or like all afternoon and other details like that. So, I think—So, I feel like he’s a storyteller. He likes writing and he likes writing poetry. And he’s shared it with us, and he feels comfortable sharing it—like what he’s written—with other people too. (gray cat jumps on her lap) So, I think that’s part of his personality, which is interesting. Because it’s interesting to think about what people choose to share with you or–and others. Yeah. 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:10.000 Are you and your siblings pretty receptive to what he shares? 00:14:10.000 --> 00:15:24.000 Yeah. We get really—We’re really supportive of him sharing, because like it’s part of our family history and our father’s–our dad’s story. My dad ge–or my brother, he gets very into it and he’ll ask a ton of questions. And I always think his questions are obnoxious but (laughs) it’s just like it’s because he’s like curious and he wants to connect to the person sharing in that way, which I guess I’ve just realized now, saying that out loud (laughs). But, yeah. I wish that he would—my dad—would keep writing his memoir and kind of like keep continue sharing it with us. But he also works a lot. So, sometimes his priority—or not sometimes—all the time his priority is working. 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:44.000 Yeah. Sure. Okay. Thank you. Okay, so let’s talk more about you. You were born in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Were you —Tell me about your siblings. How many of you are there? What order you were born in? 00:15:44.000 --> 00:16:39.000 I’m the oldest and then I have a younger brother. He is three years younger than me. So, after Tulsa, we moved to California. I always forget which city, but I think it’s Chino Hills or La Brea in southern California, when I was two, I guess, and then my brother came along. And we were in California for a couple more years. We moved when I was six, so when he was three. But it was nice being a big sister, I guess, (chuckles) sometimes. Yeah. 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:46.000 Why did you move from Tulsa to California? 00:16:46.000 --> 00:17:29.000 My dad, when I was still like one or two, he was study–or he was in a doctoral program studying petroleum engineering. And so he got a job after he graduated, I think. And so, he worked for Unocal at the time before—I mean, years later they merged or Chevron bought them–bought them or whatever that—however that goes. But that was the reason why we moved a lot was because of his job. 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:33.000 Okay. Is he still in that line of work today? 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:58.000 Yes. He is. He is almost, well, he should be retiring soon. But he says that every year, that he’s retiring soon. But he’s been with the same company for–since then, since–since Oklahoma or California, I guess. 00:17:58.000 --> 00:17:59.000 Oh, wow! 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:01.000 Since California. 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:41.000 Okay, that's great. Okay. So, where did you—So, I guess two questions. And you can answer them together if you want to. But after—How long did you live in California? And then also I’m curious about your–your childhood in these different places, if there was a Vietnamese community. You mentioned briefly that there was a Vietnamese community in Tulsa. But also, I wanted to hear about in California and then the other places you grew up and what your relationship–or your family’s relationship to the community was like. 00:18:41.000 --> 00:35:26.000 Yeah. I think it was in California we lived further away—I think a big part of community, at least in our family, is being close to family. Since our extended family is so large. So, in California, I remember that my grandmothers, both of them were alive while we were growing up but we never met our grandfathers. Or there was one grandfather we did meet, but—or I met—but I was too young to remember. Like family would have to visit us in California because of where we lived. I think most people lived up in San Jose or—Yeah. I think it’s mostly San Jose. We have one family member in Chino Hills and there’s like a complicated history with that, too. For me, community is really linked to family because those are the main links that we had with like the Vietnamese community rather than friends even. Even now I think my parents like a lot of their social lives revolve around family rather than like friends or the wider community. But family can be really huge since it’s like they can keep like they can keep straight in their heads all of their cousins and their cousin’s cousins and stuff like that. So, it’s always–it always feels much bigger than it sounds, I guess. And then like in California we didn’t live near family. They live in San Jose and I think that was a few hours away. But they did visit sometimes. And a lot of the time family who were still in Tulsa would visit—or not a lot of the time, but like sometimes they would visit, especially when my brother was born. My grandmothers came to visit and help out with the baby and to watch me. And–and so we were in California for only about three and a half or four years and we moved to Louisiana which feels really far away from much community. But apparently there was a Vietnamese community in the area. Because at my school—the elementary school that I went to—there was another Vo family. And they had a lot of kids and my mom always talks about how she would meet someone at school and they’d be like “Are all those kids yours?” because they also had the same last name. But like I never—They weren’t in my class. I think they were younger or older. And–and then I did have friends, but there’s like one or two friends who I played with on the playground. And I went to someone’s house like once or twice. But I feel like growing up we were always very, I don’t want to say insular, but we were always like very centered in our family, our immediate family and our extended family. I had cousins who were around my age, like the same age as me or like between one and three or–one and three years younger or so. And they would visit a lot too. So, we had a few family vacations where they’d drive from Dallas because by that time, when I was like six, people started moving down from Tulsa to Dallas in like the suburbs around Dallas. And so like the–the cousins on my mom’s side of the family were closer in age to me. The oldest cousin was maybe five years older than me. Whereas on my dad’s side, he was the youngest of like nine or ten kids. So, the oldest cousin on that side was like only eight or ten years younger than my dad, (chuckles) so a lot older than me. So, we were always—my brother and I were always closer with my maternal cousins. And I was trying to say that we sometimes went on summer vacation like–like long road trips to Alabama to the beach. And we did that a couple times. So, I think then when we moved overseas it was a lot harder to have community like in the way that we did with our families. We would see our relatives every summer and like spend two or almost three months with them. So, they were still a big part of our lives but for the rest of the year, it’s like very different. So, we first moved to Indonesia when I was nine and since my dad worked and works for a petroleum engineering–or like in the petroleum industry, a lot of people are very conservative and white and Republican and Christian. So, the first place we moved to was also really small and the majority of the expat community was that type of person—so, like everyone in my class and the classes were very small. There was like one year where the eighth-grade class was only three students. And then after eighth grade, you had either move or send your kids to boarding school in Singapore. And that was why we moved when I was in eighth grade, because my parents didn’t want me to go to boarding school and be on my own, which I am grateful for. But that was a very difficult move. But I feel like there was no community in–in Indonesia. I did have friends that I saw, and I went to their houses. But I think it’s–I always think it’s interesting how— (camera freezes) Um, so in Indonesia, I think since we didn’t have community in that way, I think that was why my parents were looking for Buddhist temple for us to go to which I think was really interesting because that was the only place that we lived where they did that. And I feel like that’s part of–that must have been part of them seeking to find connection in some way. So, Indonesia is like a predominantly Muslim country, but there’s like a small ethnic minority of Chinese Buddhists. And so, we did find a temple and we went there several times. And I remember we tried one place first. And these experiences were really strange as a little kid. Because like you go somewhere and you’re like “I don’t know what’s happening.” And then also like with these kind of religious things, my parents didn’t really explain them to me. They were just like “We’re doing this,” and no reason why or like they tell–tell me to hold the incense and pray or whatever. But then I didn’t know what praying was, kind of, like just think of things that I want. (laughs) But like at the time, especially when I was like eleven and twelve, I would start praying a lot. This is—I’ve got kind of getting off track a little. But like it’d be very concerning to me to like pray for the health and safety of my family. But anyway, I think that was why we started going to temple was to find some kind of connection to some part of our culture in a–in a different country and in a different country among so many like white Christians. And when we moved again, it was to Bangkok, Thailand although we lived in like a suburb which was another ex–expat community. And there were lots of different types of people because it was a much bigger place. Like I mentioned the other—and Indonesia is very, very small. And so, moving to Bangkok is like the school was a lot bigger. The community was a lot bigger and the people who lived in the community weren’t just people who had kids going to the school there. And there were more—I guess that was the same with the oth–with living in Indonesia but you don’t—I don’t know. Anyway, it was a lot bigger, and Thailand is a Buddhist country. So, like there were more opportunities to kind of connect to like broadly Southeast Asian culture. And we also didn’t go to temple anymore (laughs) which is really interesting. I don’t—I think when my dad did work with people who were Vietnamese, he would always invite them over for dinner and stuff like that. But then that didn’t happen too often. But also living in Thailand, we were a lot closer to Vietnam and Bangkok is a more attractive destination to visit. So, like we still had family who were in, I guess, Hồ Chí Minh City (Ho Chi Minh City). And we were able to—First we went to see them. So, like soon after we moved to Thailand, we went to see them. So, I think that’s where the–the lines of like community intersecting with family were being like—family being a big part of community comes back again. And then they also came to visit us in Thailand. Yeah. I think—And then for myself like I’ve only been more interested in reconnecting with my Vietnamese-ness, I guess. Especially now that I’m like in the northeast where it feels like there aren’t a lot of Vietnamese people. So, like I joined an employee—like a staff group, I guess, at work. They have like different—They’re kind of identity based because there’s like a women’s—they call them ERGs, which are Employee Resource Groups. There’s like a women’s group and an LGBTQIA group. And then there’s a south Asian, I think, and a Princetonians of color group and there’s also an Asian staff group. So, I joined them and like I recently organized a tour of the library and special collections. And I got to meet some other people who are Vietnamese which was really exciting and like learning about—like one of them grew up in New Jersey. So, I was like fascinated by that. (laughs) And it does sound like a lot of the time like the communities kind of center around a church or something. And then it sounds like they’re not like in my immediate area. There’s like different little communities in other areas around New Jersey. And I know there’s like a big—there’s kind of like a little Saigon in Philadelphia. And when my parents came to visit us one time, we went to visit Philly and go there. But I haven’t been back. Philadelphia is like an hour and fifteen minutes from where I am. So, it’s not a short drive. Yeah. But I feel like building and finding community is really hard when it’s not—I don’t know. Like if I were—Like my brother lives in Los Angeles. Like he could just go to like different parts of Los Angeles to find like cultural or community activities to join. But I feel like it’s not quite the same as when we were in Indonesia and like were really isolated and felt really different. But it’s still kind of close. (chuckles) Yeah. And it’s also weird being an expat in anoth–in an overseas country when you’re an American. And then you’re in an Asian country as an Asian person or—and people don’t get that. They like–they think you’re either like from, you say—If you say you’re—I remember like when I moved–first moved to Thailand, I–we had to introduce ourselves. And I said I was American. And then someone was like retorted and said I wasn’t because, you know, I’m not white. And like—so, that experience is really interesting, too, because people who are Thai think that I’m Japanese or Chinese or something else that I’m not. And then, you know, other people think I’m Thai or like if I tell someone I grew up in Thailand, they’ll think I’m Thai and stuff like that. So, it’s really weird. 00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:38.000 Mmm. That is–yeah–that’s a weird experience that I think a lot of people like us can relate to but that needs to be spoken about more. So, I’m glad you brought that up. 00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:39.000 Yeah. 00:35:39.000 --> 00:36:44.000 So, you said that you’re–you’re like–you’re getting in touch with your Vietnamese-ness, and I like the way you put that. How did you feel as a kid–as a kid like in all these different places. Like how did you–how did you identify yourself then? Like, you know, whether consciously or not. Like what did you perceive yourself as? And how–and related to that, I’m more interested in how you thought about your own identity? But I’m also curious about if your parents, intentionally or not, kind of tried to sway your identity one way or the other. Like how much did they try to hold on to–hold on to this heritage? And–and in what specific ways if I can ask? Like I guess obvious examples would be like, you know, taking you to the temple and praying. But–but what other ways did they–did they hold on to identity? And then in what ways did they just kind of like “eh,” like let you be American so to speak. (Vo laughs) 00:36:44.000 --> 00:38:41.000 Yeah. That’s a really good question. And I don’t even know if I remember like what I thought of myself as. I really do think, though—Because like it was a while ago, and I’m guessing that because I introduced myself as being American (chuckles) like that’s what I kind of thought of myself as. And I do also remember like other Asian students who were at the international school with me asking like what ethnicity I was. And like then I would say I was Vietnamese, but I think it’s weird living overseas because your nationality kind of matters, I guess in a weird way, like legally as well. But like how you can connect to other people because of what–whatever shared cultural touchpoints there are. Because I went to a school, and I didn’t realize this until later. But because, um, but because my dad’s company paid for us, paid for our tuition and a lot of other American kids’ dads or moms or guardians or whatever, like their jobs would pay for tuition too. Tuition was really high so like a lot of the Thai kids who went to school with us were really wealthy. And like I think that was a really—now I’m getting off topic again because (chuckles and twirls her right pointer finger in the air) — 00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:43.000 That’s okay. That’s all right. 00:38:43.000 --> 00:41:48.000 So, going back though is like I think I really thought of myself as American because we kind of—at least at that school, like the cliques and the groups of the way that kids kind of group each other is mostly by nationality and language. So, there were always a lot of–there were–there’s like the Japanese kids, the Taiwanese kids, the Indian kids, and like–and then the American kids which also included Canadian, Australian, and New Zealand and British kids. So, it was like that was a weird mix because I feel like things, you know, like nationality and language have some sep–like some ways that they intersect in interesting ways, I guess. But then, um, but then like my mom still today would be like she used the word American as an interchangeable word with white. Like she’ll say, “They’re American.” But she actually means they’re white because, you know, we’re also American but when we lived overseas it was like that was–she would–we would identify as being Americans, I guess. It’s very weird like how it changed from the context of where we were. And I think that the only thing that was really Vietnamese about us was like the food that we ate, because at home my parents didn’t make us speak Vietnamese or like they didn’t punish us if we only spoke English. Because we would only respond in English. So, I think they gave up on that. But they still, you know, would use a mix of English and Vietnamese with us. And I think that, yeah, I don’t want to just think of identity as just being language and food and religion. But those are the big things that I think about, I think, when I think of my identity. And I know there all the–a lot of others, little things as well that show up in other, more subtle ways, I guess. But those are the big things that—the bigger, obvious things that I can think of. 00:41:48.000 --> 00:42:17.000 Okay. Okay. (Vo laughs) Thank you for that. Tell us—So, you mentioned food. Tell me what mealtimes were like in your family. Like who did the–the cooking and the cleaning and were your parents or your mom—Well, I don’t want to assume anything but were your parents (Vo laughs) like open to different types of food? Yeah. What do you think of when you think about your childhood and eating? 00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:49.000 I think I was really lucky (chuckles) because like my mom was the cook in the family. So, after my dad finished his Ph.D., my mom stopped working. She used to be an accountant and supported the family and supported my dad through school. But then he got a full-time job and that became like he became the primary—what’s the word—the primary— 00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:50.000 Breadwinner? 00:42:50.000 --> 00:44:12.000 Yeah. (chuckles) And so she spent a lot of time cooking for us. And I feel really lucky because like I definitely couldn’t like make the kind of meals that she did. Because like she always had two or three dishes at the table even if—and then she’ll, you know, like talking to her now, she’ll say like “It’s really easy to just, you know, sauté some vegetables with—and then focus on a bigger dish.” But like that’s a lot of time. And she had like a repertoire of foods that she’d always make but then like she always like try–she still likes trying to make new dishes and lately she’s—well, not lately but like over the past five or so years, my parents have both been really into the k-dramas. So, like she’s been cooking a lot of, and trying out a lot of Korean dishes. And like before that she tried out a lot of Japanese dishes because she loves watching cooking shows on NHK (Japan Broadcasting Corporation) and stuff like that. And even— 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:14.000 What’s NHK? 00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:22.000 It’s—I don’t know what it stands for but it’s like the Japanese channel on TV. 00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:23.000 Oh. 00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:43.000 And they have like an English language version, so like an international version as well. And that plays in the U.S. too. But I think like in Japan like NHK is the big broadcasting corporation. 00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:45.000 Okay. 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:49.000 I guess it maybe, maybe analogous to like the BBC or something. 00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:49.000 Okay. 00:44:49.000 --> 00:47:24.000 I don’t know. Yeah. But they played that on US t–US television and my mom likes the cooking shows. And I think she–she definitely likes more east Asian and southeast Asian cuisine. But she’s also tried cooking like Italian food and other like “American” foods. I remember this chick–this really gross chicken salad she tried making that had like potato chips on it. I think that’s the only thing that she ever made that I really didn’t like that she tried making. But yeah, she’s always—And like that’s the way that she–that’s her–that’s the way she shows her care. And even not just for her family but like for guests and stuff. Like the way that she puts so much care and attention to her cooking and meal planning, I feel like has really affected how I also, you know, show care to people now too. Because she really goes all out! (chuckles) Like during visits not even like several days of visiting but even just like one meal visit, she’ll cook a lot of food. And mealtimes were—I really liked the meals that I grew up having with my family. Because we’d like all sit down and there would be several dishes to eat and it would always be delicious. (chuckles) Yeah. My brother was a picky eater growing up but I don’t remember him being picky at home, just at restaurants. When we’d go to a restaurant, we’d have to stop at a fast-food chain if there was one and get him French fries and chicken nuggets or whatever. But I don’t remember that being an issue at home. So, I–my mom knew how to cook for a picky eater. (laughs) 00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:27.000 That’s awesome. It sounds like she’s an amazing cook. 00:47:27.000 --> 00:48:21.000 She is! Like it’s funny because of the way she is when you want—And because her food is so good, we’ll want to learn how to cook from her. But her impulse is just to make it without showing you how to. My brother always tells the story now about how his–his partner wanted to learn how to make chả giò (cha gio, egg rolls) and–but then she got home late from work. And when they got—And my mom was—But first like she wanted to learn how to make it and my mom said she would show Shannon how to make it. But then when Shannon got home from work, my mom already made them, because she (laughs) because, I don’t know. 00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:28.000 Yeah. It’s sounds like your mom is similar to my mom, and I would describe my mom as maybe impatient? 00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:58.000 Yeah. Maybe that’s the—She is impatient. And also, I think she would dismiss any like, any—not criticism but like if–but when Shannon came home and was like “Oh, I wanted to learn how to make this with you.” I think my mom would be like “You’re coming home so late. You’re tired. So, I made them.” Like, “I did it for you!” (both laugh) 00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:09.000 That's nice. What’s your favorite thing that your mom makes? Like if you were having a birthday dinner, and she was like “I’ll make you whatever you want.” What would you ask for? 00:49:09.000 --> 00:50:10.000 Every time I go home, I ask for bún riêu (bun rieu) because my mom’s bun rieu is really good. I tried making it once and I think I even–she even—So, she loves cooking and I guess she loves me so much that I’ll ask for a modified recipe, and she’ll write one for me. I know a lot of people —like I feel like a lot of people with, you know, immigrant parents who cook will like–they’ll–their response is like “There’s no recipe. I just use my, you know, my intuition.” But my mom—maybe it’s my luck that she also likes recording things. So, she also has like written up almost or like the majority of her recipes or like the ones that we really like. 00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:12.000 Wow! 00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:35.000 Yeah. And this was like early 2000 so there was a lot of clip art in the Word documents. And she printed them out and put them in books or binders for us. But like when I wanted a vegetarian version of bun rieu she wrote one for me. (laughs) 00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:36.000 Oh! 00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:38.000 Yeah. 00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:42.000 That’s amazing! I’ve never heard of that from an Asian mother. (laughs) So, you are— 00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:43.000 I know! 00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:45.000 —really lucky! 00:50:45.000 --> 00:51:47.000 Yeah. She—I feel like that and also like she loves taking photos and for a long time she–and still now, she like has a bunch of photo albums. And like she’s still working through them because, you know, now we take photos like–like it’s nothing. (laughs) So, I think that–that’s slowed her down a lot because now she takes so many pictures. But yeah. I would say that’s my favorite dish. I know that when I was younger, chicken curry was my favorite because my family would tease me a lot about how I would lick the bowl clean because I loved it so much. (laughs) But it’s really hard to pick one dish because she’s really great at cooking. 00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:54.000 Mmm. That’s cool. Yeah. Curry is my favorite Vietnamese thing. But only the way my mom makes it. So— 00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:00.000 Yeah. Yeah! (laughs) 00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:24.000 So, you mentioned—I guess I want to back track again. You mentioned briefly about your grandparents. Can you tell me more about them and anything that you know about them and where they lived during your life? And how often you–you saw them? I think you said you didn’t really see them. But anything you wanted to add about them? 00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:31.000 Yeah. I did see my grandmothers every summer when we visited the United States. 00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:34.000 Where did they live? 00:52:34.000 --> 00:58:10.000 For the two—Um, my bà ngoại (ba ngoai, maternal grandmother) lived in Tulsa. She lived with her son and her daughter. And then my bà nội (ba noi, paternal grandmother) lived in Dallas or like around Dallas. And she lived with one of my aunts. I don’t remember which number she is. My dad has a lot of sisters. He has two brothers. That’s easy to remember. And then the rest are sisters. And I re–never met my grandfathers. One of–My dad’s dad, my ông nội (ong noi, paternal grandfather), lived–or never got to leave Vietnam. He died in Vietnam. And my dad has talked about like how the last time he saw him was like before he left Vietnam. So, that was—I think there’s—Well, I can’t speak to that, how my dad feels about that. I think he feels, you know, sad about it. And he’s written a poem about it. (laughs) So, I feel like there’s some kind of–there’s a little resolution there because he’s able to talk about it. But, you know, it’s like a–a–I wouldn’t call it a regret, but like a weight maybe. And my–my ông ngoại (ong ngoai, maternal grandfather), I think he was in California and that’s where he’s–he was–I don’t know. I think he was cremated and he’s in Tulsa, though. I don’t remember the timeline or what happened with him. But he did make it to America for a little while. I think he might have died in ’90 or something. And then–But then my grandmothers, they–they lived until 2013, I think. They actually died a week apart and I was in grad school at the time. Like one grandmother was 90 or 91, my–my ba noi. And then ba ngoai was in her late 80s. It’s kind of crazy how they both passed around the same time. So, I think what my paren—My parents do đám giỗ (dam gio, death anniversary) every year for them, and also my uncle who passed, and also my grandfathers. So, I do–we do think about them a lot or continue to. But I do know that my ba noi was in—I think she was born—if she was 90, then she was like born in the ‘20s. And my dad had once or twice mentioned that she lived in, during, you know, like the Japanese occupation. So, she—But she never—And I was never really able to talk to either of my grandmothers. Because my Vietnamese is really bad (laughs). I’m able to understand basic things that they would say to me, but then more complicated things were difficult. And I think it was—Since they did live until their–until 2013, that was when I started to be more interested in my cultural heritage. And I tried learning Vietnamese on my own. And that’s been a struggle. (laughs) But like in their last year or so, I wrote them letters in Vietnamese, and I feel glad that I was able to connect with them in that way before they were gone. Because I wasn’t really able to, you know, before that. And I feel like as kids I took them for–as a kid, I took them for granted. They were just always around. They didn’t really do a lot. At least my ba ngoai didn’t do a lot. I think it was hard for her because she—Like ba noi had some many family members around, like her daughters, her grandchildren. And she seemed to have a more active social life. But then being in Tulsa, I think it was harder for ba ngoai to have an active social life and community. And so, she was home a lot. And–and we were home a lot too, but we were kids and just wanted to have fun doing kid stuff. Yeah. 00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:25.000 Did you ever get any kind of sense from them about–about how they felt about being in the U.S. and about leaving Vietnam? 00:58:25.000 --> 01:01:30.000 No. Not at all. (chuckles) Like–like my communication skills were really limited. And then also I, since we were only–we saw them like two, a few weeks out of the year, too. So, like that also made it harder to–to connect with them, I think. Because during the summer, it was like always so exciting to get to back to the States and see my cousins who I was really close to. And so, my—And also like when we were in Indonesia, there weren’t—the only fast-food place was a KFC in the city. And like we’d be so excited to eat junk food and like do American type things, like go to the movies and watch TV, that it was never important to me. And I regret that like now. To talk to them or try to talk to them. So, most of our conversations were like about eating, like “Did you have lunch yet?” And it’s funny how my ba ngoai would–we would have like junk food for lunch and then she’d ask if we ate, and we’d say we’d had Wendy’s or something. And she’d say “That’s not really lunch. You have to have like a meal with rice to like, you know—” (chuckles) So, like conversations are limited to food and like I think that’s part of like how food is such a big part of being Vietnamese. Because like there’s so many conversations and like questions about food. (laughs) Like “did you eat yet?” and then like comments about food and how much you’re eating, and what you look like— (laughs) and stuff like that. But yeah. Yeah, my Vietnamese was very bad, and I think that part of it was because we lived away from our relatives and from community. And I think maybe my other–my other relatives thought that we weren’t as Vietnamese for not being able to speak Vietnamese. I think a lot of people like have that experience among their family members. (laughs) 01:01:30.000 --> 01:02:03.000 Yeah. Did your—I have so many, full of questions related to what you just said (both are laughing) so I’m trying to pick one. So, do you feel like your–your Vietnamese language ability—Or how does your–how does your level of language ability affect your interactions with other Vietnamese people, whether they’re Vietnamese American like us or like people like from Vietnam? Like how–how does that play into how you perceive yourself and how you think they perceive you? 01:02:03.000 --> 01:04:05.000 Yeah. That’s a really big question. (Both chuckle) I talked to someone recently who was saying that she grew up in Vietnam until she was like ten and then came to the United States. And so, Eng–English is her second language but being an adult now like I’m guessing in her forties or—that she’s lost a lot of that Vietnamese language. And I felt a lot of like regret from her about that because I think it’s such an integral part of being, you know, of saying that you’re from somewhere or that you’re from some part of some culture. And people make a big deal out of it, too. Like–like my cousins who are definitely like fluent or more fluent than I am and like they’ll always tease me about it. And then–and then I join in sometimes too, because my brother’s Vietnamese is worse now, about like, you know, pronunciation and stuff. And I feel like, I don’t know. It’s not cool. (laughs) Like I know that I join in on it sometimes too but like language isn’t part of—it’s only a little part of it, I guess, of who you are. And, um, I forgot the rest of your question. 01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:20.000 Oh, that’s okay. It was a long question. It was just related to language and how people see you and how you see yourself. And then also how it affects your interactions with other Vietnamese people. 01:04:20.000 --> 01:06:52.000 Right. There was a day recently where I met Vietnamese people in the area. It was that work event. And we were talking because there was another Vietnamese person there. And we were talking about surnames. And I said my surname, but I said it the American way. And he corrected me. (laughs) And so like–like it’s funny but it’s also like–it also feels another way. Like, I don’t know. Maybe I haven’t–I’m still struggling with that question. I think it’s something that may never be resolved. Because I feel like I’ve lost a lot from not having that language. And I feel like it probably was my first language, you know, before I went to school. And then like even my cousin who is only three months older than me, when she started school, she had to be in an ESL program, because they only spoke Vietnamese at home. And I feel like, yeah, I don’t know. I feel like I’ve lost a lot by losing my language. And I think that’s why that other person I met feels that way too. Like you lose something from losing language. And it makes me feel a little emotional. Yeah. Like even though I’ve never been fluent except, you know, at a toddler age fluency (laughs) it still feels like a loss and—Because you—like I mentioned, I never was able to have conversations with my elders, my grandmothers. And I think that’s—And like that’s something you can never get back. 01:06:52.000 --> 01:07:04.000 Yeah. Thank you for answering. And even though it was emotional, I appreciate that. It’s something I think about a lot, so I felt like I had to ask you. 01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:07.000 Yeah. 01:07:07.000 --> 01:07:35.000 Okay. Let me just ask one more question, since I think we’ve been talking for a while. I say that and I–I’m trying to choose a question (laughs) because I just–I still have so many. I’m sorry. We’ll have to cut this part. (Both laugh) 01:07:35.000 --> 01:07:39.000 Okay. 01:07:39.000 --> 01:07:56.000 Do you–Do your–Did your parents ever talk to you about what it means to be a Vietnamese person? 01:07:56.000 --> 01:10:52.000 Not really. Like not directly. A lot of what they taught me about it is like–it’s like how I mentioned we’d go to temple or like go to some kind of ceremony and they’d tell me what to do, but not explain it. (chuckles) I feel like the explanation part would really fill out what it is to be Vietnamese. But at the same time, you don’t really need it, I guess, because I don’t know. Like even not knowing what it is that I’m doing (laughs) or understanding why it is I do things, it’s like coming from them and it’s coming from like generations of people before them. So, it feels Vietnamese. (laughs) Like they’ve never—I guess I’ve had some moments, not with them, but like with other relatives who–who going back to the language thing like I think like because there were times because they didn’t have—or didn’t know words or didn’t know how to say something, they’d ask me like—Or maybe even with food, I don’t know. Like little things. They’d ask me if I—like how American I was versus how Vietnamese I was. And that’s like—But that was never something my parents would say. So, I feel like their instruction (laughs) has been very indirect. And I feel like–I feel like I’m the type of person that, with a lot of things, I feel like I’ve missed things when people are indirect. Like I feel so complicated when someone says or does something and they have layers of intention behind that, and then I didn’t–I don’t think about it. And I didn’t realize like that’s what they meant. But I hope that like in some subconscious way (chuckles) I–I know that’s what they meant by, I don’t know, not sure if that makes sense. 01:10:52.000 --> 01:11:10.000 Do you mean that like when people are indirect about their intentions when they’re communicating them? That’s–that’s related to being Vietnamese. (Vo laughs) Because we just–we just do things because it’s traditional. Like is that possibly where you were going? 01:11:10.000 --> 01:13:18.000 That’s part of it. I guess part of what I’m thinking is like in social interactions my mom will sometimes explain why or why not she will say or not say something to someone else. And I feel like seeing the level of nuance in like that type of communication, I’m like—It makes me feel like being indirect and like implying something. Like that mode of communication is a little Vietnamese, maybe. But–and that’s why I’ve never really received like a direct like “This is what it means to be Vietnamese. Like we do things this way.” But also, I wonder like how much of it is just like individual quirks. Because my cousin says Vietnamese people are always late. But my parents are always early. (chuckles) So, I thought like being early was being Vietnamese. (laughs) But–but that might just be my parents who are very on time and like my dad will be ready to go something thirty minutes early. And I think that’s his anxiety. (laughs) Yeah. That’s what I mean. Like you get hints like that. But sometimes it’s hard to know. Like what it means or like yeah. I don’t know if that makes sense. 01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:45.000 Yeah. I–Well I mean it was a complicated question and it’s not something that’s easily defined, I don’t think, by anybody. So, I appreciate your thoughts on it. So, thank you. Okay. So, let’s wrap up this conversation and then in our next conversations we’ll talk more about–we’ll continue to talk about community and identity but also about your adulthood. (Both laugh) 01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:47.000 Okay. 01:13:47.000 --> 01:13:48.000 Okay. 01:13:48.000 --> 01:13:49.000 Well, thank you, Jenn. 01:13:49.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Yeah. Thanks Amy. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=VoAmy_HoJennifer_2022-11-10.xml VoAmy_HoJennifer_2022-11-10.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vo, Amy. Interview November 10, 2022. Description An account of the resource Amy Vo is an archivist in New Jersey. In this interview, she shares her experiences growing up in cities and countries around the world and her experiences being the only Vietnamese American person in these places. She also reflects on her heritage and what it means to be in community with other Vietnamese people. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-108 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-10 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Amy Vo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer H Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Immigration; Ethnic identity Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Indonesia; Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam); Vinh Long (Province); Hanoi (Vietnam); Saigon (Vietnam) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright.</a> Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0d309fd7d6b5c59874bee1336f7dfe3a.pdf af146d0003528d11d9001e3b8dc2c63b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vo, Amy. Interview transcript, November 10, 2022. Description An account of the resource Amy Vo is an archivist in New Jersey. In this interview, she shares her experiences growing up in cities and countries around the world and her experiences being the only Vietnamese American person in these places. She also reflects on her heritage and what it means to be in community with other Vietnamese people. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Amy Vo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Melissa Martin Jennifer Ho Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-10 Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Immigration; Ethnic identity Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Indonesia; Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam); Vinh Long (Province); Hanoi (Vietnam); Saigon (Vietnam) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Amy Vo Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context VoAmy_HoJennifer_2022-11-10_transcript Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steve Wagner OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Stone Brewing Company;Brewing history;Brewers;San Diego breweries;IPA OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Wagner, Steve. Interview October 24, 2018. SC027-064 01:00:20 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Stone Brewing Company ; Brewing history ; Brewers ; San Diego breweries ; IPA Steve Wagner Judith Downie audio 1.0:|18(14)|35(14)|50(7)|62(19)|73(3)|91(19)|104(5)|128(4)|146(11)|162(19)|175(12)|196(3)|208(16)|227(11)|244(8)|265(16)|290(2)|310(11)|322(7)|343(9)|360(13)|375(11)|390(12)|413(13)|427(3)|444(5)|463(15)|477(15)|493(19)|505(13)|523(17)|540(9)|568(4)|591(3)|613(16)|629(11)|637(10)|654(5)|669(14)|684(6)|699(10)|721(10)|739(6)|754(15)|773(2)|787(16)|803(15)|820(9)|842(6)|856(5)|875(17)|896(12)|918(19)|933(7)|945(10)|966(14)|986(15)|998(10)|1016(10)|1030(6)|1036(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4c12a198b29a2ac447131d9f6636ed05.mp3 Other audio Oral history Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Judith Downie: Today is October 24th, 2018. Judith Downie interviewer for the CSUSM Brewchive® with Steve Wagner, co-founder and co-owner of Stone Brewing. Steve Wagner: (Aside to office staff) Okay. Don't have to worry about that. Alright, great. Downie: So if you will first state your name and position. Wagner: Okay. This is Steve Wagner, I am the cofounder and president of Stone Brewing Company. Downie: Okay. And so if we could get into a little bit of your own background, what the path that led you to Stone would be very informative. Wagner: Yes, absolutely. My story starts in Evanston, Illinois suburb of Chicago where I was born. 1958 and my parents had attended Northwestern University. So, I grew up in the Chicago area until I was about 10 years old and my family moved to Los Angeles, California. My father took a job with Mattel Toy Company , which was very exciting for me and my brothers. In fact, I think that's where my first entrepreneurial venture was. I would get some of the new Hot Wheels™ cars before they were released and I would sell them to my school mates, at highly inflated prices because they were collecting them and they could get them before they came out. Downie: Yeah, hot demand for something nobody else had. Boy, you were doing it… Wagner: It was better, I made more money than the lemonade stand. I'll put it that way. Downie: Now of course, did you ever get into trouble for doing that either from Mattel or from the school because you were conducting business on school property? Wagner: Nope. Never got caught. So, okay, let's see. So, interests before brewing. While I was a lifelong musician, I started studying piano growing up in Chicago. When I think when I was six years old, I started taking piano lessons and played all the way through high school, had some incredible teachers and actually in high school I started playing some guitar and bass and started playing in some bands, some high school bands. And then, college I went to UC Santa Cruz. So, I was an English lit major and still played some music, with some friends and things. And then after college I moved back to Los Angeles and I was working in some restaurants and, you know, basically trying to figure out what to do and ended up meeting some other musicians at a party and we decided to form a band. And that was the beginning of the Balancing Act, which was the, I guess you'd say, the most successful band I was in. We ended up self-producing our first record and putting it out on our own label. So again, some, good entrepreneurial experience. Downie: So was this an LP? Wagner: It was an EP actually , an extended play. It was six songs I believe were on it. Just vinyl, this was right before CDs kind of became the new format. And, yeah, it was fun and we got some nice critical recognition and acclaim and, you know, played a lot in, in Southern California. And then, we actually got signed to I.R.S. records, which was a pretty cool record label at that time. And we ended up recording and releasing two albums for that label. Got to tour all over the US multiple times and every college town now I think in the US. (laughs) Those were our people. Downie: And so this was still as The Balancing Act? Wagner: Yes. Yep. And so, yeah, it was, it was a really great experience and it was four of us and we all wrote songs and sang. It was very much a collective and we had a lot of fun. Yeah, let's see. So, then I started, uh, I think that band, eventually we went our separate ways and I played in some other groups, a band in LA called the Bedshredders and another band called Walker Stories. I did some studio work and played, you know, played on recordings for other people and things like that. But I was kind of at that point thinking, okay, I was, I got married. I was not that keen to go back out on tour and on the road and do things like that. So, I was trying to think of what the next step in my career would be. And one of the guys in, actually I played with in both the Bedshredders and Walker Stories invited me over to do some homebrewing at his house. He was a homebrewer and I went over and did that and was immediately captivated by the process of brewing your own beer. I was already a beer fan and I mean, my touring days, you know, you'd always get, the band would get, a case of beer and I’d like try to get them to give us something, you know, a little out of the ordinary or something local. But there wasn't much choice in those days, but still enjoyed it. Downie: This would have been about what year? Wagner: This was the mid to late eighties, early nineties. Downie: So craft brewing is just starting to get a hold in places? Wagner: Yeah, you know, Sierra Nevada was around, but I think they were still really only California probably. Yeah, there were a few other things, but not much. So, let's see. So, yeah, I started homebrewing on my own ‘cause I wanted to do it more often and you know, really read up and studied as much as I could about it and brewed a lot and joined some Homebrew clubs in Los Angeles and really tried to learn as much as I could about it and do it in my spare time . And, as part of that journey, I wanted to, they were offering classes at (University of California) Davis in Northern California, extension classes on advanced home brewing and sensory evaluation of beer. And so I decided to make the trip up there one weekend to, you know, try to learn some more and check out the school up there. And so I went, I think on a Friday there was an advanced home brewing class that I went to and then on Saturday it was the sensory evaluation of beer class. And I look across the room and I see this long-haired guy and I go, ‘Wait a minute, that's my rock and roll landlord, Greg Koch.’ And it was funny, you know, I didn't, it was out of context and I think it took me a little while to figure out who it was and I'm like, ‘Oh yeah’, ‘cause we didn't know each other that well. We were acquaintances. Because he tells the story, he didn't know me that well ‘cause my band actually paid that rent on time. So, we rented music rehearsal space from his company. Downie: Now this was the LA location? Wagner: Yeah, downtown Los Angeles. Downie: There was a San Francisco location for a while. Wagner: Yeah. This was the downtown Los Angeles location. And so, you know, when we had the first break I went up and said hi and we started talking a little bit and realized we had a mutual interest in beer and craft beer and everything. And it was, it was cool. That as part of the sensory evaluation class, If you were a homebrewer, they said bring your beer and we'll taste it. And I had brought some of my beers and we tasted them and people liked them. Greg really liked them. Ironically, it was, you know, since we were such an anti-fruit beer brewery in the beginning, it was a peach ale that I had made, ‘cause I was actually, one of my side jobs when I was a musician, was working for a farmer who came down for the Santa Monica farmer's market and I would sell his stone fruits, peaches and stuff. And so I got some awesome peaches and I decided to make a beer out of it. So funny. Downie: So leading the way with fruit beer. Wagner: Yup. Yup. And so yeah, I think, you know, that's sort of me running into him there and drinking some beers together and stuff. You know, here this guy was a successful entrepreneur, and I was interested in getting into beer and we, you know, we started talking about maybe we should start our own brewery. I think we were both back in LA and we, you know, we did some home brews together and just kinda hung out together and started talking about things and seeing if we could see a way to do, you know, to start our brewery. So. Downie: Yeah. So Davis I think was in ‘94, ’93? Wagner: ’93 I think. I'm gonna say ‘93. Downie: I've got Greg’s textbooks from that. Wagner: Well we went back for some additional classes too. That might've been in ‘94, but I think that initial one was before that. Downie: So it really considering that Stone itself opened up in mid-year 1996... Wagner: Yeah. Downie: You worked on a pretty fast track to get Stone up and going. It seems like compared to what I'm seeing for some breweries now. Wagner: Yeah. I don't know. It felt like a pretty deliberate track to me ‘cause I actually, you know, in, in between there, I moved up to, had an opportunity to house sit for my brother and his soon to be wife up in Portland because they were taking the better part of a year off as a sabbatical. They both worked for Intel. They needed somebody to house sit for them. And so my wife Laura and I volunteered to go up and do that. And it, part of my thinking was, well, I'll find a job at a brewery up there, you know, get some hands-on experience and really make sure I, I enjoy the work and, you know, am as passionate about the work as I think I would be, you know. Yeah, so I think that was Spring of ‘94 that we moved up there and landed a job brewing for Pyramid shortly thereafter. Up in Kalama, Washington, you know, 30-minute commute North of Portland. And yeah, started, I mean I think I had two weeks of training and then they handed me the keys for the midnight night shift, the lone brewer in this pretty sizable plant at that point I was like, “Wow, this is happening pretty fast.’ But uh, Downie: How big was Pyramid? How many barrels do you remember? Wagner: I think they did about 90,000 barrels when I was there in ‘90. I was there through fall of ‘95, I guess. So, a little over a year, year and a half of it. It was great experience and I really loved, loved the work. You know, just the hands on of brewing and being part of a brewery like that. I had a lot of great mentors that I was able to learn a lot from . It was everything I had hoped it would be. In fact, I enjoyed it so much. I was happy to just keep working there. And eventually Greg got impatient like, ’Are we gonna do this or what?’ But I was like, ‘I don't know, I've enjoyed living in Portland.’ Downie: Yeah, it’s beautiful up there. Wagner: I’m enjoying working for a brewery, but you know, I realized ‘Yeah if we're going to do this, we need to do it.’ So, you know, so in some ways to me that seems like a longer timeline because I actually, you know, took the time to go get some hands-on experience and do that rather than just, ah, you know (inaudible). Downie: That was a very good deliberate move though to make sure that, you know, it wasn't just the activity of brewing but you could actually face the day-to-day work. Wagner: Yeah. Yup and it really helped me in, you know, shopping for our original equipment and putting the brewery together and how we wanted to do things and Pyramid had a pretty good focus on quality of their beer. And, you know, so that became one of our things at Stone too, was to, to create really consistent beers and beers that had decent shelf life. You know, the people would have the same experience every time they tried one. And that, that ended up being crucial for us because, you know, opening in 1996, that was kinda the beginning of the first shakeout in craft beer where a lot of people had rushed in who maybe didn't have brewing expertise and were looking to be quick buck and stuff. And there was a lot of issues with, you know, bad beer out there that wasn't consistent or had off flavors or different things. And so you know, I think that the time I spent at Pyramid really benefited us. The ability to pull off quality and consistency. So, because you know, when we first opened Stone and go out to try to sell our beer, I mean, Greg was the, you know, he was our lone salesman at the time. That's what I mean, he'd go out or it was all these, a lot of people who didn't want to take craft beer, they said, ‘No, we've done it’s a fad. You know , it's like the beer never tasted the same twice or you couldn't deliver it when we needed it. So we're not doing that anymore, you know?’ So that's what we were up against when we started the company. It was possibly the worst possible time to start it. Downie: Well, you sink or swim. Wagner: Yep, exactly. Downie: And so since you've been talking about your education, did you do any other education after opening Stone or were you just so busy with running Stone? Wagner: You know, before we had opened Stone, Greg and I would go to the craft brewers conference, the national conference, the annual conference. So, we would go to that every year. And as part of that, you know, obviously there there's a trade show, but they also do a lot of educational seminars and things like that. So, continued to take advantage of that. Even in the early days we would go to that and helped us keep up with what was happening in, you know, brewing techniques and science and equipment and stuff. Um, I'm trying to remember. I think I might have taken some other classes, but I think they might've been more finance- and accounting-focused because I had sort of assumed that hat in the brewery too, you know. It was interesting the dynamics when you start, at first I felt like all the pressure was on me, you know, to order the brewery equipment, get it installed, get it, get it working, get the beer to where I want it, you know, get the beer brewed and then all of a sudden all the pressure shifts to Greg. Right. It's like, ‘Well, here's all these kegs. You better go sell it.’ (Wagner and Downie laugh.) And to his credit, you know, he did it. But at that time, you know, maybe I was only brewing once a week or something. So, I took on the task of, you know, the invoices are coming in and collecting payments and paying our vendors and doing all that and just getting into the, you know, the accounting, finance end of it. And uh, never had really had experience doing that. But I kind of learned by doing and I realized I enjoyed being familiar with the numbers and understanding what was happening to the company, financially. So I really, you know, kind of had a… Downie: Somebody who got to watch those numbers. Wagner: Yes. Yup. It was important. Downie: So that does kind of answer down here in the Stone section. I did ask about your role in Stone's early years besides brewing. And of course, I have photographs from Greg's collection of all of you doing stuff. You know, building and you know, moving equipment and all that sort of thing. Wagner: Yeah. ‘Cause you know Greg had construction experience from building his rehearsal studio and that sort of stuff. So, he, he was very savvy with contractors and how to do that kind of stuff. So I focused more on, you know, figuring out the right brewery equipment for us and finding the best deal on that and getting it shipped. And he did a lot of the, you know, the construction stuff that we needed at the brewery, the trench drains, the different things. Downie: Was there ever a discussion between you and Greg about how the jobs were going to fall out or you just said, Greg, you've got the MBA, you've got , you know, and you just kind of naturally took that on and like you say, you were brewing once a week, so somebody had to deal with the invoicing, and all of the rest. Wagner: You know, there was always more than, you know, there was always too much to do. So it was, it was very much a chip in where you could ever, you could help type of situation, you know, whether it was deliver your keg to a customer who had run out over the weekend or something. You know, we both did a lot of that. You know, I would go out and do sales calls and things too, you know, to, to try to expand our, our impact. Yeah, it's very much a, you do whatever it takes type of thing. Downie: And Pizza Port was the first, in Solana Beach, was the first location to take a keg? Wagner: Yep. Yep. Downie: ‘Cause I've seen the plaque down there. Wagner: Yep. Yep. Greg, he tells a good story about that too. It gave us a very unrealistic view of the distribution business because they came and picked up the first keg ‘cause they wanted to be the first. We are like, ‘Oh this is easy. Everybody just comes to you and gets it.’ Right. Downie: Yeah. There you go. Wagner: That might've been the last time anybody did that. Downie: Other than maybe somebody picked up a keg for their own personal party, you know? Wagner: Yeah. Downie: You know you learn as you go along because that's really, there were so few models for a craft brewery, you know, a smaller brewery. You know, you can't take the models that work for AB (Anheuser Busch) or anybody else and apply them to you. It just doesn't work. Okay. So, um, we'll jump back up the list here. How, how, and why the name Stone Brewing. Oh good. You're laughing. Wagner: You can see the list of the names from the wheat beer that we did. We, we came up with a lot of names and we disagreed quite a bit about names, you know, I think, which was good. It kind of helped us make sure that we came up with something that we both thought was good and that usually it was better than something that only one of us thought was good. So , we went through a lot of lists of names and a lot of rejection of names that that didn't work for us. And, you know, I mean we came up on a deadline, right? We had called our corporation Koochenvagners kind of a play out our two names, but we're coming up to a deadline to, you know, we wanted to release a beer and we didn't have a name yet. And so we're feeling the pressure of that. And I think Greg came in with the name Stone one day. I think he might've had umlauts over it or something like that. (Laughs.) But, but there was something about it that I liked that it was just a simple and kind of classic and, not tied geographically to any place, you know, because we weren't sure we wanted that. We didn't, you know, there already was a San Diego Brewing Company, there already was a San Marcos Brewing Company. We kind of wanted to do something different. So, and I think also it stimulated a lot of kind of creative marketing ideas too. You know, the, you know, that as we thought of things that were made of stone and that the gargoyle kind of came out of that and our, you know, original tap handles were beach stones that we'd collect at the beach, which is probably illegal now, but we don't do it anymore. Yeah. It's funny because one of the (laughs) Downie: Probably the statute of limitations is out by now. Wagner: We started draft only, so we didn't have bottles, but one of the, the ideas that I came up with, you know, as we were thinking of slogans and stuff was, well Greg, our first one was “Welcome to the Stone Age”, you know, which is Greg's, which is kind of clever. I like that one. But I came up with one “Leave no stone unturned”, which we never actually used that. But now it's like a, you know we’re in a lawsuit with Keystone (MillerCoors) about them shortening their name to Stone. Now, they use that actually, which is funny. Downie: Oh, okay. Wagner: (Laughs.) A little side humor here. Downie: You know, that's an old, old, old phrase, you know, whoever decides to trademark gets it. And so you kind of said how the gargoyle because it's made of stone, became the representation. And also there's certainly text on the early bottles explaining, you know, the gargoyle protecting from bad taste and sort of… Wagner: I think we kinda felt like we needed to explain it ‘cause people like thought that it was the devil or something. I don't know what gargoyles actually do. You know, they protect them in their own churches. They protect against evil spirits. And so, you know, Greg and his creative mind kind of turned it into this protecting our beer from the evil spirits of cheap adjuncts and materials. Downie: That's a very good way explain it. Wagner: Yeah. Downie: And to eradicate the devil situation. Um, so, and you kind of talked about dealing with distribution issues. What about dealing with suppliers? I mean , since you were a smaller brewery again. Yeah. And was there much locally available or did you have to go far afield? Wagner: We had to go pretty far afield for, you know, no matter what it was brewing equipment, you know, raw materials. Obviously hops mostly came from, you know, Washington and Oregon. Malted barley came from, you know, Canada or the upper plains States in the US and, uh, even our water came from Colorado probably. (Laughter) Right. Yeah. You know, there were, there were people locally who could do good tradeswork and stuff. You know, we had, we had wonderful, uh, stainless steel welders and plumbers and you know, just great contractors and people to work with here locally in San Diego. But… Downie: But the actual supplies were another story… Wagner: Yep. That comes from the places that, you know, that's, that's tricky when you're not ordering a lot and you're trying to, you know, protect cashflow and things that you could, you know, you can find yourself short sometimes and critical moments. But you know, that's one of the, what are the cool things about craft beer that we found out very early on is that people are very supportive. And fellow brewers, you know, obviously Pizza Port, you know, Gina and Vince (Marsaglia). I mean they had their own brewery and their own place and still they wanted to serve our beer, you know, help us out and just, just passionate about good craft beer. So that's willingness to help and to, you know, sell somebody a bag of malt if they come up short or some hops or things like that. It still carries on to this day, which is pretty incredible. A lot of businesses like that. Downie: Well, I mean, I have the articles, copy of the articles of incorporation for the San Diego Brewers Guild from 1996 with Greg’s signature on it. And so that shows that, you know, early on there was this established environment of work together and cooperate or it's not going to happen, which I think was just really essential to the success of San Diego craft brewing. Wagner: Definitely. Downie: ‘Cause I get, I get that question from people elsewhere. It's like, ‘Well, why San Diego?’ And it's like, well I know that they've always collaborated with each other. When you don't fight with each other, you can spend your energy doing better things, hopefully surviving, you know. And so, how has your role changed over the years? You know, I mean early on you were, you know, were of course doing the brewing, but when I talked to you one time I asked when was the last time you brewed and you just kind of went, ‘I don’t know.’ Wagner: I am actually brewing tomorrow. Downie: Oh good! Good for you. Wagner: Probably ‘cause you asked me that. I'm like, gosh, it's been too long. Downie: You have to get back to your roots once in a while. Wagner: Yeah, definitely. Um, so let's see. How has my role changed? Yeah, I mean like in the, you know, in the early years, besides doing , I mean for the first six months or so, I did all the production work, you know, the brewing, the filtering, the packaging, everything, and then, you know, gradually was able to get some part time help and, you know, because I ended up managing the distribution part of things, you know, just the, the logistics and the managing the drivers and the warehouse. You know, as we started to add people. At first I think we just had drivers pull the beer and load their own truck and um, you know, manage the flow of invoicing and payments, and then accounts receivable, accounts payable, Human Resources. And to start doing that, you know, I was doing payroll and everything. So kind of doing all the operations and back office stuff. While Greg was out selling and he, you know, continued to create marketing momentum for us with all of his great ideas and things. Downie: So at what point did you formalize the HR and like release doing the payroll and things like that? Wagner: Yeah, I mean, we didn't, yeah, we probably waited too long to get some professional HR help. Yeah, at one point, I promoted my assistant, I had a kind of an assistant who was, you know, sort of an office manager type person to doing payroll and of some of the basic HR filings and stuff like that. But, yeah, I'm trying to remember how that transitioned exactly. But gradually we, we realized, you know, that it's a, it's something that needs to be done by the book and you know, somebody needs to pay attention to it very carefully. And so, we started hiring professional folks to do that. Downie: There are so many facets besides the brewing that, you know, really have legal ramifications if nothing else. And then, you know, employee climate. Wagner: Yup. Downie: Do you want to make sure you're doing things right and your employees are happy? Wagner: Yeah, absolutely. Wagner: So, yeah. Um, yeah, that's, that's one area that's gotten a lot more complex and difficult in the 22 years that we've been in business too. You know, plus as your company grows there, you know, a lot more rules and laws come into play. Right. When you're smaller kind of, you know, when you're under 10 people, it's pretty simple. When you're between 10 and 50, it gets more complex once you’re over 50 that it's, you know, you get the whole rule book thrown it. It was a lot to keep track of and lots to make sure you're doing right. Downie: Well, something I've gotten a sense of from just the photographs I was going through to scan for the documentary (The Beer Jesus from America), it seemed like there were a lot of events for employees. You know, either charity events like Dye Your Head Red. Um, there was also something where people had green hair at one point? Wagner: Well, we were doing it, I don't know if we did it every year, but at one point we're doing it every other year and we would change the color each time we did it. So, it would kind of rotate between blue, red, or green. Downie: Okay. I haven't seen any blue hair photographs, but there's a very distinct one where Lee Chase was walking around and obviously they had had to bleach his hair white in order to dye it green and it was up in what I call ‘the Smurf comb up’, you know, and it's like, wow, that's, that's really throwing himself into the green hair thing. But it seemed like it was something that the employees could get into and have some fun. But you also had a charity element. So, did Stone have a charity element from the beginning? Wagner: Uh, from our, yeah, I mean, because, you know, we, we realized early on, it's one of the best ways to get your brewery name out there is that, you know, California law allows brewers to donate beer to charities for their events. And so , um, you know, that became our grassroots marketing. We didn't have money to spend on marketing. You know, we're not buying advertising or anything. We still don't do that. But it was a low-cost way to get out there and tell our story, you know. So, we would, um, donate beer to these events and then we'd go and set up a booth and you know, pour the beer and tell people about us. And, uh, you know, it was just word of mouth that, you know, it's great, ‘cause people get sample the beer and taste and decide if they like it, but also they see you're out supporting the community in supporting nonprofits and things. So it was really an effective way to, to market and grow our company. And it's, you know, just sort of something Greg and I like to do anyways, you know, be involved in. Downie: Yeah. And it certainly has established a model where you see a lot of that going on now with even the very tiny, tiny craft breweries, which is wonderful. You know, charities need all the help they can get. Wagner: So that was the sort of the turning point was, I guess it was our second anniversary ‘cause our first anniversary we just had it within the brewery, you know, our licensed operations area. ‘Cause it was, you know, pretty small and we didn't charge admission or anything. And, but then the second year we, you know, we wanted to make it bigger and have more people and so to do, in order to do that you have to partner with a charity. They have to pull a special one-day license to allow you to, we wanted to take over a little bit in the parking lot to have our anniversary. And so that's kind of what started it. You know, we went to the, to the mayor I think in San Marcos and said, you know, we need a charity partner that we can partner with to do this anniversary party that we want to do. They said, ‘You know, Boys and Girls Club San Marcos is best organization in town. So why don’t you talk to them?’ That's, you know, they ended up getting me on the Board of Directors for 10 years there. A couple, couple terms as chair of the board and we continue to support them because it's a, you know, great organization that's doing wonderful work for them, the youth of San Marcos. Downie: So there are so many, how do you spread yourself and how do you choose between all of these very deserving causes? Wagner: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does get difficult. And so we're kind of in the mode now or, I mean the good news is that there's a lot more brewers in town too. So, it's like if we say we, you know, we're already supporting the maximum number of organizations we can right now. We can't take on another one, but here's some other great local brewers that would likely be happy to support them. Downie: Again, part of that collaboration and directing people, you know, whenever I worked with somebody and I can't give them what they need in the way of research help, I try to get them somewhere where they can. I mean that's just, I think that's just good humanity if nothing else. So excellent. Wagner: But that was kind of where it turned from, you know, us supporting the nonprofits by donating beer to them, to us realizing, you know, it's our anniversary, but it became more popular and we partnered with a charity that we could charge admission and raise this money and then raise our own funds to give to the, the nonprofits that's become, you know, really the way we create most of the funding that we do for local non-profits. Downie: I’m a member of Society of Barley Engineers they’re very tolerant of my dumb questions about brewing and they're always real pleased to be involved with, you know, homebrewing the sodas that you know are good for the designated driver. Wagner: They always do some really crazy stuff too. It fits in well. Downie: With the 21st Anniversary, I was walking around and I saw a young, obviously quite pregnant young woman and her three friends were all drinking. So obviously she was the designated driver and I said, ‘Do you realize that there is non-alcoholic soda here that you can have?’ ‘Cause she wasn't drinking. It's like kind of, you need to stay hydrated. She was like, ‘Oh great!’ You know, so she was able to get something. Wagner: They always have some amazing ones too. I always try them when I’m there. They're just… Downie: Yeah, they pride themselves on, you know, coming up with something new and different. And a couple of the Barley Engineers now have collaborated with Stone on beers. Chris Banker with Xocovesa and Corey Magers with Mojay. I don't know of any others, but then I haven't really surveyed the home brewing clubs to see who else has done this. Wagner: I’m not sure who else from the Society of Barley Engineers. Downie: It's on my list of, you know, further research. Wagner: There's definitely some other, there's some folks from QUAFF (Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity). I think some other ones too, that uh, won the homebrewers contest that we do. So yeah. Downie: When did you start the homebrewers contest, do you remember? Wagner: Gosh, that's a good question. Downie: I know it's hard to ask for dates. Wagner: Well, it wasn't until we had the bistro (located in Escondido) open ‘cause we would do it at the bistro. So, it was either 2007 probably would have been the earliest . But yeah, it certainly wasn't long after that, I can look back at the beers probably and find out when we released the first beer, which is probably the Ken Schmidt, the coconut porter. Downie: I think somebody who said… Wagner: ‘Maui Ken’ Schmidt. So, the original that I can find that out. Downie: Yeah. I have people ask me things like that. You know, when was the first this, when was the first that I'm like… Wagner: It’s not in here is it (referring to Stone timeline from their website)? Downie: I don't remember how far. I think that ends about 2006 on most of its information. Wagner: So the AleSmith/Mikkeller/Stone (collaboration beer)/ Let's see. We did some with brewers that says the Ken Schmidt one was 2009. Downie: Okay. Wagner: That was the winner of the Stone Age. That might've been the first one. Downie: Okay. Oh, of course they'll remember. Wagner: ‘Cause then we did the 2010 was with Kelsey McNair, I think he was in QUAFF. Right. And he started North Park. Downie: Yeah. He would've been in QUAFF. Wagner: North Park Beer Company that says. Yeah. Downie: Okay. I see. Good thing I brought that list. So, when you started Stone, you started with the IPA? Wagner: Well, Stone Pale Ale. Downie: Stone Pale Ale, okay. Downie: And then where did Arrogant Bastard fall in, into your first beers? Wagner: So the Stone Pale Ale was the first beer, released in July of ‘96 and then our second beer was, we did a, a seasonal called Winter Stone that I think was probably released in November of that year. And then we ended up keeping it around ‘cause we had a few customers who really liked it on draft. And so we changed the name to Stone Smoked Porter and kept brewing it. So that was our second beer. Downie: Stone Smoked Porter ‘cause I've seen those bottles and I think I've seen a Winter Stone. Wagner: Yeah. And now I'm talking about the year-round beers. So there may have been a couple of other ones in there. But then the Stone IPA was released on our first anniversary, so July of ‘97. So that was our third full time beer. And then I don't think Arrogant Bastard came out until 1998, till November of ‘98 I believe. We had the other year-round beers because we started doing some bottling then. Yeah. Just keeping up with what we had. Downie: So it was late ‘98 when you started bottling? Wagner: (paper rustling) I believe so. Okay. I'll confirm that . I think it's pretty sure it's (November of ’98). Downie: Well since when I asked you about that date code on the bottles and you made the very good point that that was probably when the bottles were printed, not when they were filled. I was like, ‘Oh yeah, that would make perfectly good sense.’ Okay. Now I don't even have to worry about the dates on the bottle anymore because that can be from any time really. That was, there went, a myth ‘cause I saw Chris Cochran, just after that and I said, well Chris, because Chris and Greg and both said, we think this is when the bottles were when beers were brewed. I said, well, Steve says, because you bought bottles and they sat in the warehouse, he goes, Oh, okay. So you know, busting that mythology there, which brings me to… Wagner: Yeah we used to put the date on the case boxes at first. You know, we didn't have the technology to put it actually on the bottle. It was, we were doing these little (inaudible) bottling machines. Downie: Yeah, yeah. You're, you're running lean and mean. You've got to get it out there. Yeah. But that does bring me to another mythology which, how Arrogant Bastard was born. You know, the higher hopped beer. I have heard from people who of course want to speak with some authority, but you would be the authority, that you accidentally double hopped a batch of beer. Wagner: I did. That is absolutely true. I think everybody agrees on that. You know, we were working out of Greg's condo in Solana Beach to, you know, start the business basically. And I was doing a lot of research on equipment and then I was also doing some pilot batches to, you know, work on some, some recipes for some of the beers. And we had, I had my own kind of homebrew equipment, then we invested in a nicer system that a little bit more capacity, I think it was like a 10-gallon system or something like that. It's, so it was one of the first brews I was doing on that system. And so all my calculations changed on volume bitterness units and all that stuff. I screwed up the first calculation and I way over hopped this beer. (Laughs) Downie: But then you didn't release the results of this mistake until a couple of years after being established. Wagner: We have differing opinions, Greg and I recall it differently because we definitely know I screwed it up. The question was, I think I thought I realized it right at the time and I just wanted to dump the batch, you know, Greg said, to my memory Greg said, ‘No, let's, you know, you've already made it. We might as well let it ferment and then we’ll bottle it. And then Greg's memory of it is that I didn't realize it until we tasted the bottles and then it's like, ‘Ah, geez, I messed this one up.’ and Greg is ‘This is the best beer I've ever had.’ Downie: Okay. Well it's nice to actually be able to say definitively that part that, that mythology is true. And so what is your role in developing new beers now? Wagner: You know what, I don't have a huge role other than, you know, tasting the new stuff that we come up with. Maybe making some comments here and there if there's things that I don't think are quite, quite what we're looking for, but, we have a super creative team and I'm happy to enjoy the fruits of their labors. We've got an innovation team with three guys, Chris Ketchum and Jeremy Moynier and Steve Gonzalez. They're just making unbelievable beers. It used to be such pressure for me to come up with a new beer as well, you know, doing all this other work in my day job and all this stuff. It's kind of nice when we got to that point where other people can contribute. You know, Lee Chase was the first who helped out with that. And then Mitch Steele came on board. You really embrace that, which is nice for me because… Downie: Speaking of Mitch (Steele) and Lee (Chase), did they start as volunteers or did they start as paid employees? Wagner: Yeah, I don't think we had volunteers that I recall. Lee started part time ‘cause he was, you know, he had been working at Brewers Union down in San Diego, the brew-your-own place and then I think he was working at White Labs too, maybe even doing some stuff for Pizza Port. But yeah, we hired him part time to help me with the brewing and kegging stuff ‘cause I just couldn't keep up with everything. Then eventually we got to the point where we're able to make him full time. Downie: And then he went out on his own. Wagner: Great job of growing with us for a long time. He was with us for 10 years or something. Super creative guy. Yeah, doing great on his own. Downie: Yeah. And he's a, he's another hard person to reach. But I am persistent. If nothing else, it does pay off eventually. What happened to your early brewing equipment? Wagner: Uh, my earliest brewing equipment, I actually have it. Yeah, do you want it? my musician friend, The guy Doug Freeman, still mine who invited me to homebrew with we, uh, I have that equipment actually. Downie: Yeah. If it's not as big as this (holds arms out indicating the current brewhouse), Wagner: it’s a 5 gallon. Downie: I would love to have it. That would be wonderful. Oh, I would love to have it because that's one thing I don't have is you know, equipment because that's kind of a space factor. But the, where it all started very first time, that would be…Oh, that would be so incredible, that that would just be so much fun. Wagner: Alright, it would make my wife very happy. Downie: And I'm sure, yeah. That's what I get from a number of the wives of brewers. It's like, ‘Oh, you'll only take that much?’ Oh, I can only take so much and I don't want anything that is not San Diego related. I'm sorry ‘cause I have women going, ‘He's got a hundred growlers and they're from all over the country.’ The boss has told me to stop collecting growlers. I’ve got about 45 so far. But the artwork on them is so incredible, you know, I mean I think just everything that you do to represent yourself says so much. Wagner: Yeah. Downie: It's like Karl Strauss and Ballast Point and they've changed their logos. They've changed their stories a little bit. So yeah, I just, I just love to collect real stuff because then people get really excited when they see, you know, a piece of paper they don't get too excited about, but when they see the real thing, they just get really excited and happy. Um, so, just if you care to talk about this, a couple of lows and highs in the progression of Stone, things that have happened that… Wagner: Let's see, I mean, you know, some of the highs were, let's see, in the early days, that'd be just some big wins on getting our beer to some places that, you know. I remember one of them, because one of the reasons I used to come down here was because my brothers were in school at UCSD and I was, I was already out of college and I was living in Los Angeles, but I'd come down and visit them and we'd go to the Del Mar racetrack and stuff. You know, it was just fun thing to do on the weekends and you know, so when we first got Stone Pale Ale on tap at the Del Mar racetrack, I thought, ‘Wow, it doesn't get any better than this.’ Yes, they're just little things. but just those little incremental things, sometimes... Downie: Well, they may feel a little but, that was really a big thing getting, getting out there with so many different people are going to be tasting your beer. That's huge. Wagner: So, yeah, that's what I remember I mean, you know, the first time that we'd started shipping our beer to another state, to Arizona. That's pretty big deal. Downie: Yeah. Especially Arizona was early. I mean, they passed Prohibition four or five years before the nation did. Yeah. That they were one of the reasons San Diego Brewing failed, or Mission Brewing, failed pre-prohibition because Mission was making Hopski which was a near beer and Arizona wouldn't even allow that in the state. And that's what actually caused Mission to shutter. Oh, I've got all kinds of weird little historical trivia. Wagner: Yeah. Let's see. The low points. I don't know. The, you know, the losing good people is always tough, you know? Um, what do you feel like you've let them down or something and not been able to provide the career path or the compensation they need or whatever it is. You know, sometimes that hits you hard when it's somebody who, really, really valuable member of the team that moves on from whatever is, it could be personal reasons, can be professional reasons. Um, those were some low points. You know, obviously Greg talks about when we got turned down by the distributor, you know? Yeah, yeah. That was a pretty big setback. Yeah. Downie: That, that would be terrifying. Wagner: Yeah. I dunno for me though, it was just, it just made me mad and it's like, alright, let me just, we're going to beat these guys at their own game. That we’re going to take action in those situations. But yeah, you know, it's, you don't really know how long you have to make a success of it, you know, and how long can the negative cashflow go on before decides just not gonna make it, you know, and we were close to that point. So it was definitely an inflection point. Downie: Do you have a year that you realize you had gone into the black? Wagner: I think it was about, I think it was probably ‘99 was probably our first profitable year. I can look back and I might still have some of those. Downie: Yeah, well that's not, that's not because Peter (Zien) at AleSmith says it was six, six years or so before he actually… Wagner: I think it was the first full year with Arrogant Bastard. ‘Cause I think that kind of took off pretty quickly for us. It really changed things around. You know, because we had just been trying to grow in San Diego and you know, do it the hard way. Right. Just hand to hand. So, it was a slow road, but that kind of gave a us a big shot in the arm. Downie: Well, a name like that, you know, I mean if nothing else, people are gonna buy it just because of the name. Yeah. Okay. Well then, I know we've talked about this before, but for the record, if Stone hadn't worked out, you know, I mean you did have a time where you came close, I'm sure. What would have been your plan B? Wagner: Yeah, I think the plan B, I mean I definitely wanted to stay involved in craft beer, you know, enjoyed brewing and a lot of aspects for it. So, you know, I thought about that since we talked a little bit last time. I think it probably would have been moving back up to Portland because both of my brothers and their families lived up there. Uh, looking for a job with a brewery up there. Really enjoyed living up there too. Downie: Yeah. Well I liked your, your response last time you said, ‘I didn't think about it.’ It wasn’t not going to happen. Wagner: I thought about it since you said like ‘What would we have done?’ Probably, you know… Downie: So, well it seems like you were so busy you didn't have time to think about what that plan B would be. Wagner: It’s really true, I think we're so focused on just a… Downie: Yeah, if you don't admit that there could be failure, you know, you haven't left yourself anywhere, but to go, but keep going, I guess. Wagner: I feel like we just put our heads down and just kept working with it. Downie: You obviously, you obviously did, I mean some of the photos from the buildout on Mata Way. I mean, obviously you're just, you're asleep in your chair. You just kept going until you couldn't go anymore. But you know that that hard work has paid off here 22 years later, 23 years later. So do you have any words of wisdom for future brewers? Wagner: Wow. Yeah, you know I used to say all those things like ‘chase your dreams’ and ‘if it's your passion’ stuff but the way the industry is now, I'm not sure. (Laughs) I'm not sure the best advice to give somebody, but, yeah, I mean, if you're, I would say if it's, if you're willing to commit everything to it and work harder than you've ever worked and you know, and you should only do that because you really love it. Then, yeah. I mean it's, it's great to do something that you love. You know, I think, I think you, you know, you have to have realistic financial expectations these days. You know, people aren’t going to grow into a $1 billion company probably at this point, you know, but, uh, but if you are passionate about it and you can find a lifestyle that works for you with the, you know, with that sort of employment or a job, I think it's, there's something to be said for it. Downie: Yeah. And Stone has certainly given rise to a lot of other brewers who have gained experience here and then gone out and been successful. Wagner: So it's not just us, it's the other brewers that had been around for a while too. Downie: Yeah. I tried to develop a genealogy, kind of you know, who had worked where with who and I gave up. It was such an inner tangled, shifting, people popping back and forth. I said, no, somebody else can do that. I'll just track the breweries because they're a fixed space and I can deal with it. Wagner: That, um, that would be a very complicated… Downie: What was the, I'm sure you and Greg have probably talked about where does Stone go from here, you know, as far as both expansion and what, when you both say ‘we want to step back, we want to retire’. Or whatever. Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's something we're, we're, you know, we're actively trying to figure out every day pretty much. It's how can we leave the company independent and you know, still a going enterprise, you know, when we're not involved anymore, can't be involved anymore. So that's still our goal. You know, we want to leave a company that has the ability to go its own way and not be told what to do. Uh, you know, be run by the people who work here. Downie: And hopefully hold to your founding principles of, you know, the quality, consistency... Wagner: Yeah. Downie: No paid advertising, you know, just good, good culture for people to work at and, and, and all of those. I mean, it seems like you've developed a very good, strong core of principles that have really served Stone well. Wagner: Yup. Downie: Hopefully they will remain. Wagner: Yeah. You know, we're, we're trying to figure that out. It doesn't seem like it'll be a family business at this point. You know, my sons are still a little young, not even sure if that something they'd be interested in. You know, Greg doesn't have any kids or anything, so it's not, it's not going to be like a family business that's passed on generation to generation probably. So, yeah. Downie: Well, have your children ever come in and like work for the summer helping out? Wagner: My youngest son was a host at the restaurant this summer. Downie: Okay. I'm never sure, I'm never sure if that's really a good insight into the world of, you know, the food and beverage business. Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. People are not always that pleasant. It was good for him because he needed to come out socially a little bit. So, you know, you're having to deal with strangers and be nice to them and make them happy. That's a good thing. Downie: Yeah, that's, it certainly it makes you appreciate what service staff go through. Wagner: Yup. Downie: If you work a little bit of it yourself, it's a very different world for them on the other side. And are there any styles of beer you have not tried? You know , I mean, it seems like there was a real explosion of beer styles for a while. Now, you know, the Brut IPA is the most recent thing I've heard of, but are there other styles that you have heard of that you haven't tried or other styles that you see Stone maybe experimenting with or at least investigating? Wagner: Uh, let's see. I'm sure there's styles that I haven't tried, but they're, they're probably more the historical, obscure type ones that, you know, maybe nobody’s brewing anymore or has tried to brew in a long time. Downie: They're not being made for a reason. Wagner: That’s right, most of them, most of them are not accepted styles. That'd be both, you know, between being a judge at GABF probably judged all the categories, the hundred or whatever there are, including the malt liquor category. Sometimes you have to pay your price. I mean, as far as places we’re looking or, I mean, you know, one of the nice things is having a brewery in Berlin now that sort of opened up a whole new range of things we can do there, you know, as it relates to more traditional styles, more traditional European styles and things. So, it's kinda fun to experiment with those, you know, doing the Berlinerweisse and doing some different Pilsners and lagers and things like that. So, yeah, I dunno, there's nothing we'd rule out, you know, I mean, there's such a lot of, uh, innovation going on with hop varieties and stuff that's really exciting to us. So, obviously we're doing a lot of different IPAs using those, you know, testing new hop varieties for the growers and things. Uh, let's see. Yeah, I don't know. Downie: Well, there's, there's still lots, still lots out there available to experiment. Wagner: You know, the ability to create new flavors and beers is pretty much limitless, I think. So we still want to be leading that charge for sure. Downie: But never giving up on your stable, the stable core beers. Wagner: Yeah. You still have to sell beer too. Downie: But somebody was bemoaning the oaken, the Oaked Arrogant Bastard and how much he missed that. And that was I just like ‘Never had it, can’t say.’ Wagner: The beautiful thing is we, you know, we reserve the right to bring back any beer at any time if we want to. Pretty much any of them we could brew again and we probably will at some point just for fun. Downie: Yeah. As long as those particular hops and all are still available. Wagner: Yeah. The Stone Pale Ale, although somebody told me, I was talking to Jeremy or somebody who told me something. They said that some of the growers are starting to plant the Ahtanum hop again. I guess, which is interesting. So I have to keep posted on that, we might have to do a throw back version of the Stone Pale Ale. Downie: What was old is new again. Wagner: Yeah, exactly. Downie: Well, is there anything that you would like to contribute to this history that we haven't touched on? Wagner: I'll have to think of that a little bit if I could get a second swing at it. But, no, I just think it's an amazing story of how San Diego ended up being this epicenter of it, you know, Capital of Craft™ and just, uh, you know, my best memories are just the wonderful people in this industry. You know, I consider many of them friends, just really good people who you know really pull together and help each other out. And I just thought that's something that we can keep going, you know, as it gets more competitive and things like that. ‘Cause it's, it's a pretty special place to be. Downie: Yes, exactly. Yeah I told Jen (Jennifer Fabbi, Dean of the CSUSM Library) , I said, if, if this was a combative industry, I would have come back to you and said, no, we do not want to get involved. Yeah. But I said, everybody has been collaborative and sharing and open and enthusiastic, which has really made developing the Brewchive® a joy because, I think there's, I don't know if the stars aligned right for San Diego or what, but it does seems like it's a really, there's something about this area and the people in it that has just created a very good place for the craft beer industry to be successful and be collaborative. Wagner: Yeah. And I think if there's one, one thing in particular that Stone did to make that happen was to take our beers outside of San Diego, you know, and probably the first ones to get any sort of serious distribution outside of Southern California to attract attention for, you know, Arrogant Bastard and then Stone IPA and some of those beers that, you know, I mean obviously there's a lot of tourism and military stuff for the word would spread about San Diego breweries, but we actually got the beer out there to the East Coast and other places where people, helped people realize, wow, there's something going on in San Diego. Downie: Yeah. And somebody sampling it here, they may not have any pull where when they go home to get the beer brought in. So yeah, you have to kind of push it to a receptive community. Wagner: You have to convince the distributor that you know that it will succeed or that there's people that would, Downie: And so now there Stone brewing, Stone has a distributorship. Um, I know Greg's got like the nut butter thing going on. (Wagner laughs) It seems like there's becoming a many-headed Hydra, not in a negative way. Wagner: That’s not a Stone thing (nut butter) though , that's, you know, he's got a couple other things he's involved in, you know, whether it's the, yeah, the nut butter or the wine thing, there are some other breweries and things. And I've got a little bit of that too with some of the brewers that I help out. But, yeah, I don't know. I think, you know, our three big pillars are obviously the brewery is the big one and continue to make beer that people want to buy and the challenges and the distribution. It's just a key strategic thing for us that allows us to control our brand and our sales in our home market. That's something that we'll always have that, you know, no matter how rough it gets out there and other parts of the country and stuff, we feel confident that we can, you know, always have strong sales here in Southern California. And then, uh, the hospitality is basically our marketing. You know, we don't invest a lot in advertising or those sort of traditional things for us. It's creating a good experience where people come to your place and you know, they leave and the next day they go to the store, they want to buy a six pack of Stone because they have these fond memories, you know. So far it’s worked. Will it continue to work? We’ll have to see. Downie: Well, sounds like it will. Well, I will end the interview here. I want to thank you so very much, Steve. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wagner, Steve. Interview October 24, 2018. Description An account of the resource Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24.mp3 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-24 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steve Wagner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Stone Brewing Company (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County University of California, Davis Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Evanston (Ill.) California -- Santa Cruz County -- Santa Cruz Los Angeles (Calif.) Portland (Or.) San Marcos (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en." target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Brewchive(r) Community history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4b980f381eb5f170b4d732a73f004a7d.pdf 2af1a32989492e0fe580e85a42ceffac Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wagner, Steve. Interview transcript, October 24. 2018. Description An account of the resource Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steve Wagner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-24 Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Stone Brewing Company (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County University of California, Davis Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Evanston (Ill.) California -- Santa Cruz County -- Santa Cruz Los Angeles (Calif). Portland (Or.) San Marcos (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p class="p2"><a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en." target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a></p> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_transcript Brewchive(r) Community history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/71c8b4f9523f7776b3f38bb8961109e4.pdf 7d8200db0e9bea2a86b937c5c65a7c28 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wheeler, Lucy. Interview transcript, April 28, 2023. Description An account of the resource Lucy Wheeler discusses college, photojournalism, and San Diego agriculture, specifically the county's para-farms and family farms. Prior to attending Palomar College to study photography, she did street photography with the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce for several years. Gender roles and assumptions about age are also addressed. Additionally, Wheeler also contemplates the current state of American agriculture and potential prosperity, oral history, and her "gift of gab." This interview was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lucy Wheeler Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tanis Brown Charlie Colladay Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-28 Subject The topic of the resource Adult students Education, Higher Family farms -- California Oral history Photography Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Lucy Wheeler License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-045 Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience