3 10 208 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bonnie Biggs OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_2024-03-26.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Biggs, Bonnie, and Gunnar Biggs. Interview March 26, 2024. SC027-055 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm California State University San Marcos ; Tribal libraries--Southern California ; Tribal libraries--New Mexico ; Libraries--Ghana ; Love on a Leash ; Patterson, Lotsee ; American Indian Library Association ; California Indians ; Rodriguez, Henry Nichols, 1919-2002 ; Jazz-Ghana ; Jazz musicians--Ghana ; California State University San Marcos. Tribal Liaison ; California State University San Marcos. University Library Bonnie Biggs Gunnar Biggs Judith Downie audio 1.0:|21(7)|41(9)|69(10)|94(12)|108(12)|138(11)|153(11)|167(16)|191(5)|206(5)|227(12)|244(14)|265(3)|299(15)|331(9)|346(12)|382(8)|401(11)|419(15)|431(7)|443(9)|466(6)|501(6)|528(4)|544(6)|558(5)|582(12)|612(3)|650(16)|673(5)|687(14)|710(5)|728(16)|743(16)|763(3)|777(5)|806(3)|820(8)|833(10)|857(14)|884(10)|915(9)|938(8)|966(10)|1006(17)|1032(3)|1054(6)|1094(6)|1140(5)|1162(11)|1188(3)|1217(14)|1251(2)|1279(7)|1320(8)|1347(14)|1364(4)|1375(12)|1394(10)|1431(7)|1463(6)|1489(6)|1514(3)|1530(15)|1544(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/61a0275718a0293965abb1d4b9d1ca5e.m4a Other audio English 0 Introduction and educational backgrounds Oral history interview with Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs, March 26, 2024. Interview by Judith Downie, Special Collections Librarian at CSUSM. &#13 ; &#13 ; Bonnie Biggs and Gunnar Biggs discuss their educational backgrounds and how they met. 0 160 Early professional and CSUSM history Bonnie Biggs recalls working as a public librarian in Encinitas and Solana Beach while gaining her Master's from USC. After this, she began working as an academic librarian at the SDSU North County satellite campus that would become CSUSM in 1989. Biggs recalls the various professional relationships she cultivated, and the "chaos" in transitioning SDSU to CSUSM. 0 1024 County and Tribal library cooperation In this segment, Bonnie Biggs discusses her role in facilitating cooperation between the San Diego County and Tribal libraries after the dissolution of their working relationship. This included American Indian culture fairs before the establishment of Powwows at CSUSM and most importantly gaining the trust of local Indigenous communities. In the end of this segment, Biggs and Judith Downey discuss the importance of archives in preserving, documenting, and maintaining valuable historical information. 0 1392 Powwows Before powwows were sanctioned at CSUSM, there were American Indian culture fairs. Bonnie Biggs briefly explains the necessities and process of facilitating these social gatherings for Indigenous American communities. Biggs also discusses meeting "Uncle" Henry Rodriguez, a Luiseño elder, culture bearer, and water rights activist who was a crucial to CSUSM in building the university's relationships with local tribes. 0 1759 Tenure and second sabbatical Regarding her second sabbatical, Bonnie Biggs shares her experience working with the Pueblo peoples in New Mexico. She recalls how she met her mentor Dr. Lotsee Patterson (Comanche), founder of the American Indian Library Association, who was instrumental for securing the trust of Tribal communities, and access to Tribal libraries. 0 2057 Academic Senate and Tribal Liaison This segment covers the time Bonnie Biggs served aboard the Academic Senate as vice chair for four years. Biggs shares that she chose not to serve as chair, despite being elected, and instead accepted President Karen Haynes's request to serve as the university's inaugural Tribal Liaison. Biggs considers this one of her most important accomplishments as she was able to build a trusting relationship between CSUSM and tribal communities in Southern California. Biggs also discussed founding the Native Advisory Council alongside Wendy Schlater (Luiseño). 0 2485 Therapy dogs Regarding other "firsts" at CSUSM, Bonnie recalls bringing therapy dogs to campus, and how helpful they are to not only students but staff, faculty, and administrators. A brief segment, Downey transitions to then speaking about Biggs's first sabbatical. 0 2568 First sabbatical in Ghana Narrator Downey circles back to Bonnie Biggs's first sabbatical in Ghana. Both Gunnar and Bonnie Biggs recall working with Dr. W. Komla Amoaku, former Director of Visual and Performing Arts at CSUSM and Director of the National Theater of Ghana. Gunnar recalls his experience sharing jazz knowledge as well as learning Ghanian drumming, while Bonnie recounts going on national radio to speak about the similarities between indigenous libraries in Ghana and tribal libraries in the USA. 0 2980 Additional CSU accomplishments Bonnie Biggs shares some of her other accomplishments at the CSU level, including work with the American Library Association. Bonnie once again discusses therapy dogs, through her work with Love on a Leash, as well as her continued work with the California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center at CSUSM. Finally, Bonnie and Gunnar share their culminating statements regarding their appreciation for CSUSM. 0 Bonnie Biggs was the inaugural Tribal Liaison and a Librarian Emeritus at California State University San Marcos. Gunnar Biggs has been a prominent figure in the musical environment in Southern California for over forty years, and is a retired music instructor from San Diego State University and Palomar College. In this interview, Bonnie and Gunnar recall the early history of CSUSM when it transitioned as the North County satellite campus for San Diego State University into CSUSM in 1989. Bonnie also discusses her academic and professional achievements, including her work as the university's Tribal Liaison. Bonnie and Gunnar additionally recall her sabbatical to Ghana, Ghanaian jazz music and musicians, visiting and working with tribal libraries in New Mexico, and Bonnie's most recent work with Love on a Leash. Downie: All right, so we are now running. Okay. So, this is Judith Downie, curator of the Brewchive® (archive dedicated to preserving the history of the craft brewing industry in San Diego, CA) and History Librarian and Special Collections at Cal State San Marcos, with Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs to talk about Bonnie and Gunnar's history of Cal State San Marcos and other related pieces of their lives. So, I'm, this picks up pretty well. So we shouldn't have-- Bonnie Biggs: Oh, it does. Okay. You want me to sit down? Downie: Well, or let's see. We can maybe put it between the two of you. Okay. You know, because whatever I say, I'll just say it loudly. B Biggs: Oh, okay. Downie: So, yeah, again, this will be Bonnie for the most part, but Gunnar will certainly be jumping in with memory jogs and his personal recollections as well. So, let's start off with Bonnie, your personal history. Where-- B Biggs: Okay. Downie: Where did you grow up and some background on your education. B Biggs: Okay. I grew up not far from you (referring to Downie ; laughs). I grew up in Vista, California and went to Vista High School. Then I went on to Palomar College, got an AA (Associate in Arts) degree, went to San Diego State, got a BA (Bachelor of Arts) in British Literature after the 1800s. And then onto USC (University of Southern California) for my Master's in Library Science. Downie: Okay. Gunnar, how about you? Gunnar Biggs: Oh. Downie: Where did you grow up, and your education? G Biggs: I grew up in San Diego, California, about a block from San Diego State (University ; SDSU). My father was a faculty member in the music department there. And from there I went to North Texas State University in Denton, Texas for a couple of years. Then I took a twenty-year gap, going on the road playing music. And I came back and I got my bachelor's at Cal State San Marcos in Ethnic Studies and Global Arts, after completing my general ed(ucation) at Palomar College. And that's, yeah, that's about it in terms of my education. Downie: Okay. And so where did the two of you meet? B Biggs: Jazz Club. G Biggs: It was the Hyatt Islandia on Mission Bay. (laughs) Downie: Gunnar’s got the details. (Laughs) B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a friend take me to, to hear the French horn player. They usually don't play jazz, and this phenomenal famous piano player, but I liked the bass player. G Biggs: Which is very unusual (laughter) for the bass player to get the nod, you know? B Biggs: Yeah. So that's, and that was in 1981. Downie: Alright. So, let's move on to your professional history, Bonnie. I've sketched out a timeline from what I know, but of course I can be imperfect. So, we'll start with, I know you worked in public libraries-- B Biggs: Yes. Downie: Before you moved into the academic library field. B Biggs: Yeah. I started my career at the Encinitas Library. Not the one we see now, the big beautiful one (snapping noise). But on that same site in 1973, and I worked there for nine years. And then I was moved to Solana Beach to become the branch manager for four years. And during that time, met him (Gunnar) and started going to grad school up at USC while I managed the Solana Beach Library. And when I got my master's I started looking around, and that's when I found SDSU North County. (I) was looking for a library (overlapping dialogue). Downie: So, what year would that have been? B Biggs: The SDSU North County? I would've started in 1986. Downie: Okay. B Biggs: And we were-- Downie: That was long after they had established that satellite campus (SDSU North Couty satellite campus that officially became CSUSM in 1989). B Biggs: Right. I think it had been around, I think since the late seventies. I'm sure you've got history in the (overlapping dialogue) archives. Downie: Limited history, limited history. I think it's mostly at San Diego State. B Biggs: Yeah. So, it was San Diego State North County, and I was the librarian, and under the wonderful Dick Rush (CSUSM's first executive vice president). Whom we (Bonnie and Gunnar) just saw a couple weeks ago, had lunch with him. And what was interesting, he was less interested in my librarianship as my arts and lectures chops, because I had been doing music and a lot of outreach in the public library system. And he wanted to get San Diego State North County out to the community. We were in Jerome's (furniture store in San Marcos) parking lot, right. So we started having concerts, thanks to Gunnar. We got amazing musicians and put on festivals and, you know, Mexican fiestas and jazz con- you know, jazz. It was like a festival, actually-- G Biggs: It was a jazz festival. B Biggs: So, so we started doing that. And then of course, I had to be a librarian too. That was always the thing. I had to do both. And that carried over when we (SDSU North County satellite campus) became Cal State San Marcos. Downie: So then you were at San Diego State North County while it was still in Vista (California). B Biggs: It wasn't in Vista at that time, but yeah, I know what you're talking about. It was, it had just started in San Marcos. But I know where that campus was. It was in the old Vista High, where I went to high school. So by ‘86 when I started, they had already moved into the Jerome's lot (building used for the campus that later became that furniture store). Downie: Oh, okay. That’s all very fuzzy in our records, so I've never been too sure. So that helps clarify that. B Biggs: Sandy Punch (retired CSUSM administrator) might be a good one to talk to. In fact, I have lunch with her this month. Yeah. Downie: Tell her I'm hunting for her. (laughs) B Biggs: I will, I'll do that. She'll love it. Downie: Okay. So, you were there for the transition- B Biggs: Oh, boy. Downie: To San Diego State North County. So, you never actually worked at San Diego State Libraries? B Biggs: No, San Diego State North County only. But I will tell you there, there were a couple of librarians at the main campus who were my mentors and who helped me make that transition, because it's a different world and- Downie: From public to academic. B Biggs: Oh my goodness. Yeah. So, Philip White comes to mind. He was a very, very good friend. And he even came up a couple of times. Just having to do with working with faculty, developing the collection. The trick was the faculty was changing because they were starting to phase out North Count-- Well, they were solid for a while, but we were bringing in Cal State San Marcos faculty. So at one point I was reporting to two deans. When they hired Marion (Reid), she became my dean of the library. But I also was reporting kind of to Pat Huckle, who was the dean of San Diego State North County. Whom we just saw last week. We took her to lunch. So I stay in touch with these wonderful leaders that I got to, to work with. Downie: Okay, so you didn't have to move San Diego State North County or CSUSM to the Valecito site, Jerome's (Bonnie affirms) West, as we all call it. Because it had already moved. But what sorts of, I mean, you were answering to two deans (Bonnie affirms) at the very least. But there must have been other challenges and opportunities in this whole transition from being a satellite of San Diego State University to its own freestanding Cal State San Marcos. So, what do you remember of that? B Biggs: I remember that it, I didn't know that much about academic politics at the time, but I remember there was a lot of it. And (I) started to figure out what the landscape was and just treaded very carefully, made friends with a lot of the faculty. David Whitehorse comes to mind, he’s one of my best friends there. He was San Diego State North County. And then beginning to get to know the founding faculty at Cal State (San Marcos). I remember there was a part of us at San Diego State North County who didn't want the change. We were thrilled that the state wanted to have this new university. We just had a nice little comfy warm tight-knit organization. And so, it was chaos for a while. And bringing Bill Stacy (founding president, CSUSM) on, luckily he and Dick Rush got along pretty well. As they also transitioned from one to the other. G Biggs: Didn't they fast track the change over? It was, it happened before people had-- B Biggs: Very quick. G Biggs: --predicted. It was one day they were a satellite, and the next day they said, “We're about to move to the new campus as soon as it builds in.” You know, so. B Biggs: I'm trying to think who the governor was at the time that came down. G Biggs: Yeah. It was like, it was a governor's decision to go-- B Biggs: And signed the paperwork. Downie: Was that (George) Deukmejian? (laughs) B Biggs: It wasn't, no. Wasn't (Bill) Craven. I mean, it was, was it a senator? Anyway, some, some, I have a photo in one of these somewhere of-- Downie: Well, we have a signed certificate, I think from (Governor) Gray Davis. B Biggs: That might, that was probably it. Yeah. Yeah. He would've been the governor then. Yeah. So, that was when things got a little bit strange because we started to phase things out at North County and move. And that's when we took over the other building across the street. And the library moved into that space. Marion coming from, 'cause there, there's a question here (laughs). How, you know, she didn't know what to call me or what to offer me as a position because, to have called me Assistant Dean, that implies tenure and, you know, academic credit that far exceeded what I had at the time. I was just, you know, a public librarian learning to be. So she, but generously, I think it was generous, she gave me the title of Assistant to the Dean. And of course I was that. I assisted her on many things, head of, then it became Head of Public Services, or (unintelligible), it was called Coordinator for Public Services. They call it patron, is it now, it's not public services-- Downie: User services, (overlapping) what we call it. B Biggs: User services, I like that. Yeah. And then later Arts and Lectures (curriculum-linked events produced by CSUSM College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral and Social Sciences). So there, there I had one business card with three titles on it, which I think a lot of people did at that new university. Downie: Yeah. We all had to do a variety of jobs. And we were not in the, centralized or no, I forget what the term is, but where you just kind of did things. It got done, it got taken care of, and it's gotten so much structure-- B Biggs: Crossing lines-- Downie: Permissions and paying for everything. Where it used to just be, it got done and somebody covered the cost. (Bonnie affirms). But it does seem like there would've been a lot of long hours and obviously confusion as to lines of responsibility, but it got worked out. B Biggs: It really did. Downie: Seems like. B Biggs: And luckily, on one end, we had Dick Rush who, I got to tell him at lunch a couple weeks ago, what a wonderful leader he was. He constantly took time out, when we didn't even have time to go to the bathroom or breathe and gather us around his desk or somewhere in the library, and just let us know how wonderful we were and how much our work was appreciated. And what that does, you know, it gives you a shot in the arm and you just keep going. And Pat Huckle was the one, again my other dean saying, “Bonnie, at the end of the day, it's just gonna be a dead librarian if we keep this up.” (Gunnar laughs) Meaning she got--I told her about that the other day. (Laughs) It, she gave me the permission to place some limits in my ability to do all the stuff we were required to do. We were thought to be doing. And I don't know that that slowed me down a whole lot, but-- Downie: Probably not. B Biggs: Yeah. G Biggs: Well, Dick, Dick told you the library is the heart of a university. (Bonnnie affirms). So that's where he came from. Initially it was like, build this library and you will have a successful university. So that kind of put the weight on your shoulders. (Bonnie affirms). “Okay, I gotta build the heart.” B Biggs: And the fact that he wanted the arts made such a difference in that tiny little Jerome's library, bringing the principal brass of the San Diego Symphony because of his (Gunnar) connections, for a concert. And Peter Sprague (jazz guitarist) out in the parking lot. It just, it put us on the map, in a tiny way. Because people saw, that there, there actually was a campus there kind of (laughs). Downie: Yeah. So even years later, I was at a conference and somebody said, “Oh, San Diego State North County.” I'm like, “No, we haven't been that for a number of years, thank you very much.” B Biggs: Yes, yes, yes. (laughs). Downie: But you know, if you're not right there in the thick of it, you didn’t realize-- B BIggs: It was 1989 when I think, I mean, that's a date that really sticks out, I had been there three years. And 1989 was when we were signed-- Downie: When Bill Stacy came in and-- B Biggs: Right. Downie: Brought in the founding faculty and-- B Biggs: Right. And that's-- (overlapping dialogue) Downie: --things started really changing. B Biggs: Have you gotten all the founding faculty? I'm assuming you've-- Downie: Marion got oral histories from-- B Biggs: Oh, good. Downie: --I think everybody, and it would be nice to go back to some of them and, get a looking back now, what you saw then versus what you're, what you’ve-- B Biggs: In retrospect. (overlapping dialogue) What, yeah. Downie: In retrospect view of that, that could be extremely interesting. But so, you were there to move into the permanent campus on Twin Oaks Valley Road. And that was while I was not on campus. That was during my period of exile, as I call it, after I got my master's. And I went down to United States International University. So that's, there's a chunk of campus history that I didn't personally experience-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: How long were you-- Downie: I was there eighteen months. B Biggs: At, at USIU. Downie: Yeah. B Biggs: Okay, yeah. Downie: And so, and of course-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: I forgot that. Downie: --being that the position I was in as a staff person when I left, I was not involved in planning or any of that sort of thing. (Bonnie affirms), I'm sure you were, I know Marion certainly was. Way-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: Oh yeah. Way deep. (overlapping dialogue) Downie: Way, deep, deep, deep into it. But you certainly had a lot of input as well. So, what do you remember about running up to moving onto the permanent campus at Twin Oaks Valley (Road) and then the move? Other than we had to borrow book carts from everybody, every library in the county. B Biggs: Yes. I remember that. Of course, Marion was much more in charge of that and involved. I think I was doing more hands-on and working with a few staff. We had to fill those book carts and get things moved into the library. I will say a major memory of that was that we were not invited to the groundbreaking. I just have to go on record to say that. And there were many people who had been doing that kind of work, high level work. You know, like Marion, she was there. But those of us who helped build the foundation of that university--San Diego State North County--were not invited to the groundbreaking. So that, that's something that's one of the few bitter kind of, “Really?” (Downie affirms) Kind of thing. Maybe Dick was, yeah, I'm sure he went because he had transitioned-- G Biggs: There's a picture, there's of all the shovel people-- B Biggs: All the shovels. No (San Diego State) North County people. So that was interesting. (Downie affirms) And it is kind of a blur. I mean, all of the nuts and bolts and physical work. I just remember it being a lot of physical hard work, getting--Marion probably was up here (referring to planning and coordination of the campus move) more than, you know, the moving of the materials. And-- G Biggs: They got somebody local that had a moving company to help move the collection, box them up-- B Biggs: And I, I think Jim Hanson may have helped. G Biggs: Jim Hanson was on there, but I forget who it was that had trucks. He had a moving company, right? B Biggs: I don't remember that. Downie: Well, they were, they were flatbed trucks with board sides, and we had all those book trucks. And the day we moved the collection, it was raining. So we had to wrap all the book trucks in plastic-- B Biggs: I remember that now. Downie: To move them into Craven Hall, which is now the Administration Building. B Biggs: Right. Downie: And then of course, the ceiling was leaking, even though the books were on the fourth floor, we didn't have our shelving yet. So, the books were sitting on the floor. (laughs) B Biggs: You have more memories of that-- G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: --than I do. That's interesting. I, yeah. Downie: Well, again, you had other responsibilities that you were running the arts programs and, (Bonnie affirms) you know, everything. And (overlapping dialogue) areas of responsibility. B Biggs: And all the Indian stuff had started by then too because, you know Whitehorse, the way it started was David Whitehorse (School of Education Emeritus faculty) walked into my office. He was standing as State North County faculty and said, “The plan of cooperation between the county library system and the tribes is dissolving, they’re--what can you do about it?” Like, “How do I (Biggs) know what to do about it?” (Downie laughs). So, I had started going out and working with the tribes at that point. We had American Indian Storytellings-- G Biggs: Storytelling. B Biggs: --we had the American Indian culture--we couldn't call it a powow--culture fair, inside and over at the Red Barn (Williams Barn, San Marcos, California). So I was kind of doing a lot of that stuff at the same time. That's why I don't have really clear memories of the actual movement of the books. But-- G Biggs: That’s where you met Uncle Henry (Rodriguez ; Native American water rights activist ; instrumental in preserving indigenous California culture) was at the, at the storytellings. B Biggs: Yeah. He was, yes. G Biggs: I see that down there, yeah. Downie: So that really kind of segues beautifully into the next session, which is your work with the local tribes, the California tribal libraries. So, how did you actually become interested in this particular part of our population? B Biggs: Yeah. Well, David Whitehorse told me I had to (combined laughter). I mean, when he said, when I looked at the plan of cooperation it was a plan, very loose plan that the San Diego County Library system, which is thirty-three branches from Otay Mesa to Fallbrook. And the system I came from, they had a plan of cooperation. It just meant that they would do some interlibrary loan and maybe occasionally go out and help, you know, people with collection development. But it all of a sudden was dissolving. And so, I'm trying to think of the timing. It was at a time, one of those times when the budget was going to hell in California. So, they were pulling funding back and staffing ability to go out and even do the little bit that they were doing. So, David wanted to know what I was gonna do about it. So, I did start going out to some of the local libraries: Pala, Rincon, Pauma, La Jolla, San Pasquale, just the local, the most local (to North County San Diego), not south. There were no casinos for many years until after I started working with them (California tribal libraries). So, it was more just about getting an assessment of who had what. Some of them had combination museums and libraries, which is not uncommon on most tribal land. So, I just started developing. I would say, and I tell people this, it took seven years to get totally trusted and implanted into the culture. You don't just go out and say, “Hi, I'm a white librarian, I'm gonna help you out.” (Laughs) It really did take years and years and years. But doing things like “Prez to the Rez,” taking the (university) presidents out there developing tribal communities, task forces, I'm getting ahead of myself, but that, it was that kind of stuff that gained the trust of the tribal communities. And the big part of that, ultimately, first it was, do something because the library system is abandoning them. But the more important thing was we need to get these Indian students to the university to trust coming to a university. Lots of history on that, you know, with what we did to native people in boarding schools. So, it really did take a long time to gain the trust, and the numbers show now that our native population at the university is one of the highest, last I looked, in all the CSUs (California State Universities). So, and we were the first to have a tribal liaison. And it was Tish (Tishmall Turner). No, it wasn’t (laughs). You saw that. That was a-- Downie: Well, this is a problem with a lot of the firsts that we've done on the campus is nobody stopped to think, this is the first we need, we need to record this somewhere. And responsibilities have moved from department to department. From unit to unit. Across. And then we've had changes in presidents, changes in everything. B Biggs: Deans and-- Downie: So after a while, yes, it gets lost. B Biggs: That's why archives are so, I mean seriously, it's so important, especially with a university this young. You got, I'm glad Jen (Fabbi) is moving there (to CSUSM’s Special Collections). I mean, you need all the help you can get, and you've got an opportunity before it gets too far down the road to capture all this amazing history. Downie: Cause we've already lost some very key players. That, you know, you can't go and interview them now. Unfortunately. B Biggs: No. No, I know. Downie: So, yeah. So it's become, becoming more critical all the time. B Biggs: Yeah. Did somebody, I'm sure they did. They must have interviewed Dick Rush at some point. So-- Downie: Nobody's interviewed Dick Rush yet. B Biggs: Wow. Downie: Yeah. No, we, we have his papers. I mean, he doc-- B Biggs: He did. That's right. Downie: We have more paper from Dick Rush in boxes in Special Collections than from anybody else. G Biggs: Do you (Bonnie) still have your yellow legal pad thing where Dick had (overlapping dialogue) bullets for what, what he wanted you to do? Handwritten. B Biggs: We’ll have to find that. But, you know, we're gonna go up mid-April, just for a two-night trip for our anniversary, our fortieth anniversary. And we're gonna see Dick probably, we'll probably stop in Camarillo (city in California). And should I ask him if he is interested in being interviewed? Downie: Yeah, please. B Biggs: Okay. That would, wow. I mean, because beyond those boxes, this is somebody-- Downie: Oh, there's so much more. B Biggs: Somebody who really, really knows the story. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, because he was there from ground zero, basically. B Biggs: He was a British literature professor at (Downie laughs) San Diego State. Downie: Those Brit Lit people, I tell you. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Downie: So I know that you have mentioned to me over time that you went, you know, when you were first working with the tribal libraries, that you would go to tribal councils and you would just sit there and just listen. (Bonnie affirms) And, you know, speak when you were spoken to or invited to speak, things like that. But where did you meet Uncle Henry (Rodriguez)? B Biggs: I think at a powwow (a social gathering celebrating Indigenous American culture). G Biggs: Or a, well, there's a picture of him at the Red Barn with Lee Dixon (Pauma Band of Mission Indians). And- B Biggs: So it would've been the American Indian-- G Biggs: Find that picture-- B Biggs: --culture fair, we couldn't have powwows yet. And David (Whitehorse) helped organize those. So that was when we were still San Diego State North County. And he (Rodriguez) was always invited as an elder to give the blessing. And he did that for us until the day he died. But commencements and powwows, so met him there. I'm trying to think how I got close to him. Just got close to him. Downie: He was a very astute man. (Bonnie affirms) He probably saw your empathy and connection. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And he knew I was working with the tribal libraries. I'd come, I'd go to the La Jolla Reservation, which is way up Palomar Mountain. They had like a room with- so many of these libraries all around the country, really. Or a couple of shelves of books. One of them at Manzanita (Reservation of the Manzanita Band of the Kumeyaay Nation), I think was a bookshelf in a fire department. That was their library, you know, and people took me in and said, “Here's our library.” And yeah. So, Henry (Rodriguez) knew I was doing that work, and yeah. He knew I--to say in Luiseño, I had a good heart, I guess is. Downie: Okay. And you've already talked about bringing the powwow to campus, but it was the American Cultural Fair. Before the American Indian Cultural Fair. Before it was actually a powwow. What were the mechanisms by where it could become a powwow? B Biggs: Yeah. It had to be, of course outside, and with a number of different things, different dancers, different singers. Bird songs are important for local culture. So it, you saw a couple of them, I'm sure. It's huge. It's not something that you hold inside. So the parameters are really about dancers and music and a processional. So Henry (Rodriguez) would often, with me and Whitehorse, lead the procession. There's a blessing of the field. So, probably an Indian person could tell you more what the specifics were you, you would have a--what was Randy Edmonds (American Indian Tribal Leader)? Barry, what was Randy Edmonds? G Biggs: Randy Edmonds was the MC. B Biggs: He was the master of ceremony. So, so- Downie: Randy’s last name? B Biggs: Randy Edmonds. Downie: Edmonds. B Biggs: And he's still alive. I just heard something about him the other day. So, there were just a whole bunch of things. The idea of the American Indian Culture Fair was to at least get people used to it. So there would be a prayer and a blessing at a table. Got pictures of that stuff going with Henry. But, and I think they could do like a few small bird songs and maybe a little, you know, dances. But, they would have booths. And it was just a mini powwow is the best way to describe it. Powwow didn't happen till we moved to the campus. And we had that lower field, which I think is soccer now. Downie: It's used a lot for soccer, but I think it could be used for other sports as well. Yeah, it's right down there at the, on the corner of the entrance on Twin Oak Valley Road. B Biggs: Right. We always drive by when I'm on campus, “There's the powwow field.” That was huge. And I don't know if you know there's an Indian store over here (referencing a picture). They just closed or they're moving this. Downie: Oh, they closed. B Biggs: Yeah, but we were in there and recently just to help with any, you know, buying things. And the guy said, I said, “Do you remember me? I,” and he goes, “Oh yeah. Was (referring to the CSUSM American Indian Cultural Fair) the best organized powwow ever.” Because they went to all the tribes. Downie: Oh, I'm sure they did. B Biggs: I said, “It's because a librarian organized it.” (laughter ; overlapping dialogue) Librarians-- Downie( Exactly. You put a librarian on it, it's gonna be organized. B Biggs: I know. He was. Yeah. So, they were always there and selling things. What were you trying to- G Biggs: I was trying to find that picture of the lineup. B Biggs: The perfect processional, yeah. G Biggs: Lee Dixon, who's passed away. Jane Dumas. David Whitehorse, Uncle Henry. You (Bonnie Biggs) and somebody else, they're all lined up. But that was in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Downie: We have a few pictures of the Cultural Fair, what was going on in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: And-- G Biggs: Yeah, Randy Edmonds charged me with carrying Carol Bonomo (CSUSM Administrator Emeritus) out of the arena. They had just smudged blessed the arena, and you weren't, you weren't to enter the arena after that. And Carol comes across there and Randy goes, “Go get her and get her out of there.” So, I had to pick up Carol and-- B Biggs: Small, she's small. (overlapping dialogue ; laughter) G Biggs: I know. And carry her out the arena, kicking and screaming. She tells that story all the time. B Biggs: All the time. Yeah. She loves that story. G Biggs: And I said, “It's not me! I was told to do this, so I do this.” B Biggs: (laughs) It was, yeah. G Biggs: But there's certain protocols for the, like that. You don't enter the arena after it's been blessed and stuff like that. B Biggs: And I don't, I can't even remember how many years it went on, but after many years I think I was starting to think about retirement, but the students took over. Downie: Yeah, the American Indian Student Alliance. B Biggs: And it didn’t-- Downie: They did it, I think, for two years. And then being that the student population changes, you don't have the continuity that you have-- B Biggs: Exactly. Downie: --of actual employed staff and faculty to lead something. I mean, I've seen that happen so many times with the student organizations. They'll be there for a year or so, and then the person who was excited and found it, graduates. Good for them. Yes. But then they haven't developed a line of succession either. (Bonnie affirms) And then something else will pop up. But-- B Biggs: Yeah, that was unfortunate. And people were sad about it. And I think right after that, either I was going up for tenure--that's what it was, Whitehorse and I finally said, “You know, we better do this tenure thing.” And so suddenly I started publishing, you know, in a flying hurry. I'd done some, and then that's what it was. Yeah, we both had to step down. Downie: Tenure becomes quite the time suck. B Biggs: I'll never forget Dick (Rush) telling me, because I was just being a librarian, I didn't understand the whole, again because I wasn't really part of yet of the faculty. Downie: Well, we didn't have a faculty mentorship program that we do now. There was really, you were just doing what had to be done. And hopefully somebody told you. B Biggs: All of sudden, oh, you're supposed to write about this. Okay. And that was another thing, is doing all of the publications I did, all had to do with tribal libraries. You have to be careful, you know, and respectful, and vet things. And so that was, that sort of added to the lengths of time to get things done. Downie: And so, as part of your scholarly work of course, was the California Tribal Library Survey, which that was, was on a sabbatical, right? B Biggs: You know, the, the strange thing was the first sabbatical was Africa, right after I got tenure. And then the State Library of California paid my--paid the university, gave Marion money to cover me while I did that survey. The second actual one was going around and doing the New Mexico Pueblos. So that was my sabbatical. The second one. Yeah, the first one was right, you know right after you get tenure, you get a sabbatical. That was Africa. And-- Downie: Well, now you can apply for a sabbatical and hope you get one. (laughs) B Biggs: Hope you get one. Exactly. And the, and the second one, and I'm trying to remember how long afterwards that was. G Biggs: What, Africa? Downie: It's usually (overlapping dialogue) every six years-- B Biggs: Yeah, something like that. Yeah. And then, but the, the census and needs assessment for the State Library of California was just a thing that they asked me to do because I'd become involved in, so that took us all the way up to a sheet. Yeah. So-- Downie: And that was 2001, 2002, as it says on the spine, a very fat binder. (laughter) B Biggs: Yes. Of a very fat binder. And he (Gunnar) was on that one. I have no sense of direction. So, Gunnar drove me. Not only there, because a lot of the you know, reservations are really way out there and not very well signed. You see the signages, “Go three rocks up past the, you know, the oak tree and turn left.” Same thing with going around to the Pueblos in New Mexico. And I went on that trip because Lotsee Patterson (librarian and founder of the American Indian Library Association), my mentor, said that the best tribal library system in the country was within the pueblos of New Mexico (referring to the physical establishments of the Pueblo peoples). And that's because she helped guide them along for decades. And it was an amazing trip. Downie: And how did you meet Lotsee? B Biggs: At an AL- AILA, American Indian Library Association meeting. And we rode in a taxi somewhere, and I remember-- G Biggs: Chicago. B Biggs: --remember thinking, “Oh my God, I'm in a taxi with Lotsee Paterson.” (laughter) And she was the most likable, lovable, again, we talked to her just a few weeks ago. She got her materials to Sean (Visintainer ; Head of CSUSM Special Collections) for, yeah. But she's the one, I mean, everything really centers around her. And we just became friends and I guess kind of a, she was kind of a mentor and a not in a real strict way but she, just by way of being around her she was mentoring me. Downie: Well, I think that's a very much cultural way is just simply organically as it happens, you pass your knowledge onto someone else rather than the formal academic environment that you know, we commonly think of. G Biggs: She would take the students on a summer trip to the pueblos. And we would, we tagged along on one of those. So, in desert summer in New Mexico with our dog in the car and everything, but we would go to library to library, and she (Patterson) would know everybody. Down to the tribal policeman that tried to throw us out once, you know. “How's your cousin doing?” And he'd look at her and he'd go, “Oh my goodness, go ahead.” You know. (laughter) But without those kind of inroads, you don't just walk into a-- B Biggs: And she helped me get entre into all of the, all of the Pueblos who are just phenomenal people. Yeah. Downie: Lots of, lots of accomplishments there. So that will bring us onto your other career accomplishments. On campus, I know that you were the first librarian faculty to serve as the Academic Senate chair, which was a pretty big deal because there weren't too many of us librarians (Bonnie affirms). G Biggs: --weren’t Chair though. Downie: Number one (laughs). B Biggs: Right. There weren't, and, but the deal was, this is very strange, and I have to find it. I'd been senate vice chair for maybe four years, and I think by the time Bud Morris (Dr. G.H. “Bud” Morris ; professor of communications and former Academic Senate chair) was ready to step down, I said, “Okay, I will go ahead and do this.” But I stepped out. I didn't, I ended up not serving as chair. And it was because I was getting ready to retire. I think that would've been 2004. And Karen (Haynes ; President of CSUSM 2004 to 2019) had just said to me, “Will you be tribal liaison?” So, I ended up not serving. I think I was the only person who was voted, and also the only person who ever said, “I'm not gonna do it.” And that was, that was a big stink. And even Alex Gonzalez (former CSUSM President 1997-2003) was pissed at me (Gunnar laughs). I hated--didn't care for him. (laughs) But no so I didn't, but I served certainly for, I don't know, fifteen years on the executive committee and then four years as vice chair. Ick. Ick. Downie: That was certainly long enough. But, that's what people had to do. I mean, there weren't that many people to serve in positions. Patty Seleski (CSUSM Professor Emerita) was, what, History Department chair for twelve years? (Bonnie affirms) Because she just said, “I'll take it on, because the junior faculty need to be able to work and get their tenure.” (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: And do their research, and yeah. Exactly. Downie: So, we made sacrifices in some ways. B Biggs: We just talked to Pat (Seleski) last week when we went down. She's almost blind now, but she said that she was senate chair for three years straight. I don't think we've had anyone do that many years straight. Have we? Downie: Somebody recently did do I think two terms. B Biggs: Okay. Downie: But that was when it was one-year terms. Now it's become a two-year term. B Biggs: Has it? Okay. Downie: Glen Brodowsky (CSUSM Marketing Professor) is chair right now. B Biggs: Glen is, and he was always on (academic) senate with me. (overlapping dialogue) I love Glen. Downie: So, but any other firsts that you did? I mean, you certainly started the Arts and Lectures program. You certainly brought, you know, the tribal collaboration and partnerships to campus. But what, what other sorts of things? B Biggs: Firsts? G Biggs: Tribal liaison. Tribal Liaison. B Biggs: Oh, the tribal liaison I think is really important because, there were none anywhere. And so, establishing those relationships in the tribal communities task force, sort of paved the road. You read that history that I corrected that went to Patricia, Patricia (Prado)-Olmos. So, I think that that's probably, if I were to say the one thing I was most proud of, is that we established a position on campus that was about serving native communities. And then now that, I understand that they've got a couple in other CSUs, they have something. Maybe not the exact title at SDSU. And then the UCs (Universities of California) got a couple now. But we didn't have, there wasn't anyone. And yeah, I didn't like the fact that it was forgotten that there was someone who was before Tishmall. But getting Tishmall there as a local Luiseño tribal member was so important. Getting Joely Proudfit (Department Chair and Professor, American Indian Studies Department) to come to campus was, that was amazing. You know we lured her away from CSU San Bernadino, and to get a couple of local tribal people, really what that does is it opens the door for native students. I mean, we started that by having our tribal community task force. We go out to the rez, “Prez to the Rez”. We do things out there to bring people in. Untrusting native students and families started to see that we were a safe place for them to come. But the tribal liaison position, probably I would say, I would think the most important thing that I accomplished. Downie: Would you say, if I remember correctly, San Diego County has more tribes than any other county in California? B Biggs: Federally recognized. Yeah. Downie: Federally recognized. Okay. Would you say that was maybe one of the reasons that we could be the first in that? Because-- B Biggs: I would think so. Downie: --there was just a larger population to work with. B Biggs: We had a larger population, and we had, we were young enough. Karen Haynes was one hundred percent behind it. I was on her search committee, and I got to ask one question, each of the faculty members (got to ask one question). And mine was, “We have nineteen federally recognized tribes in the county of San Diego. What do you think you would like to do, if you became president, about that?” And she said, “First of all, I would talk to people who know about it, and know what the needs are, and want to meet with the native people.” And I was like, “You're hired.” Downie: Ding, ding, ding, ding. (laughter) B Biggs: You're hired. So it was really having a leader on campus who was one hundred percent behind doing this work. And she came to a number of our, before we had NAC (Native Advisory Council), came to a lot of our tribal communities task force meetings, just to hear--that was getting people from business, you know, you think it's- Who, Raj (Dr. Rajnandini, CSUSM Professor of Management)? Is Raj still there? Downie: I believe so, yeah. B Biggs: And Glen Brodowsky. Folks that you wouldn't think would have anything to do with this stuff all had input and all had ways to take their resources and their knowledge base out to the reservation. Or their advice to the reservation to help-- Downie: And NAC is Native Advisory Council? B Biggs: Yeah. And that, that evolved. You know, so Wendy Schlater (member of the La Jolla Band of Luiseño, elected vice chairwoman of that tribe in 2019) from La Jolla rez, Henry’s rez, and I went to President Hayes and said, “We need-“ you know, there was at the time what they call Latin- Latino Faculty and Staff-- G Biggs: LAFS- B Biggs: LAFS. G Biggs: Latin American Faculty and Staff. B Biggs: And then they had just started an African American council. So, I thought, you know, we should--especially because we have so many tribes in the area, and it was time. And they're still meeting. I'm not going anymore. But, but it's wonderful that, that they are meeting and that, and I believe President Neufeldt (CSUSM President Ellen J. Neufeldt, appointed in 2019) is behind everything I've worked with her on having to do with the tribes. She's very-- Downie: It dovetails nicely with her social mobility focus. B Biggs: Right. It does. Yeah. Downie: Okay. So-- B Biggs: Oh, another first on campus was bringing therapy dogs. Downie: Okay, well-- G Biggs: It's down here. B Biggs: Oh, is it on here? (laughs) G Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) I see it right at the bottom there. B Biggs: Oh, is it really? G Biggs: Right at the bottom. Downie: But no, that's I think perfectly. That's, that's a wonderful first. Yeah. I think that's been done, you know, like in the county libraries of the public libraries, there's been the reading to dogs. So, it's not like it was completely foreign to people that dogs could be used in a very positive way. Other than just simply assistance animals. And there's nothing simple about that. But you know, the therapy dogs and the comfort or support dogs and things like that. I haven't seen a support alligator on campus yet, thankfully. Or a support snake. Any, any kind of reptile. Haven't seen those yet. But it does seem like it's being a more acceptable thing, but just the bringing them on right at finals time. (Bonnie affirms) To give students another form of release is, it's obviously quite popular. I walk out to see you and, you know, there are just students everywhere, you know, coming by, you know? Kids that didn't know about it are coming by and just, “Oh, well I gotta stop and touch a puppy.” B Biggs: And faculty and staff. And administrators-- G Biggs: Presidents. Downie: Yes. We all need it. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Librarians. Yeah. Downie: Okay. So we can move on to some of your other career accomplishments beyond the firsts. You did do a sabbatical in Ghana, and wasn't that one of the first internationally, international-- B Biggs: Might have been. I don't know who else had gone-- Downie: --sabbaticals. I don't have a list of who's done a sabbatical when and where they went, but it doesn't seem like we had too many faculty-- B Biggs: Not that many of them-- Downie: --that were internationally focused the way you were on this. B Biggs: And there was somehow money. It was obviously Komla Amoaku (Dr. W. Komla Amoaku, former Director of Visual and Performing Arts at CSUSM) who got me interested because they do have what I would call tribal libraries, or libraries formed by indigenous people in Ghana. And so, he got money through the-- G Biggs: United States (overlapping dialogue) Information, USIA. B Biggs: So, so a little bit of money to help fund that. We of course got some money from the university I guess, to go, but we ended up paying your (Gunnar’s) way. G Biggs: Yeah. Thanks. B Biggs: For everything. And we stayed at a woman's home, auntie-- G Biggs: Jane Korontang. B Biggs: Korontang-- G Biggs: On Labadi Beach on the Gulf of Guinea. B Biggs: So Komla-- Downie: I may have to ask for spelling. (laughter) B Biggs: Komla got us connected everywhere. And we had a--but it, but again, it was to go around and talk with people in libraries that again, were kind of like the tribal libraries here. Some pretty well formed, some others, very slim, I would say. But the thing about Ghana was Komla was very involved in the music world there. He was the director-- G Biggs: Director. B Biggs: Of the national Symphony-- G Biggs: Theater. B Biggs: Symphony or Orchestra? G Biggs: National Theater of Ghana. B Biggs: National Theater of Ghana-- G Biggs: Which was an umbrella organization for all the arts-- B Biggs: For all the arts-- G Biggs: Music, theater, et. cetera-- B Biggs: So he ended up getting this one. It was like my sabbatical. And he (Gunnar) was the star. (laughs) G Biggs: No. No. B Biggs: He had, he had you conduct the-- G Biggs: Well, I, we went to hear a concert of the National Symphony of Ghana which was, it's a long story, so I won't go into it now, but it was really a treat. And the next day, Komla said, “Would you go to their rehearsal and talk to them about their performance?” So I did. And it was amazing, you know, and they had me conduct a piece during the rehearsal. But they were using some like, traditional African instruments in a symphony orchestra. That was just ridiculous. I mean, it was so good. And they--I found out that they didn't have strings for the--they didn't have a, they would break a string and they would find some way to make a string. Downie: Oh, wow. G Biggs: So when I got back, what I did is I asked all my symphony friends, I said, “If you have old sets of strings, tuners, anything that would be violin, viola, cello, or bass, give them to me. I'll get them to Ghana.” So, I sent a whole care package. They couldn't tune up. They didn't have a piano that was in tune, so I sent them tuners and things like that. But-- B Biggs: And the other, there are a lot of stories, but the other thing about him is we went to a couple of jazz clubs. G Biggs: Which we didn't know existed in the first place-- B Biggs: In the first place. G Biggs: --there were jazz clubs in Accra (capital of Ghana), the main-- B Biggs: But we walked in and Komla introduced him (Gunnar) as this big jazz star. And he ended up showing the African musicians how to play jazz, which is some funny stuff. I mean, jazz originated in Africa. And the rhythmic foundations of jazz-- G Biggs: Well, the head of USIS, United States Information Service, Nick Robertson, who lived in Ojai (California). Anyway, he was a jazz vibraphone player. He played vibes. And he had gotten together, we got some music sent over. Some musicians in Accra, to form a band, at the place called The Bassline. B Biggs: As in bass line. G Biggs: It was amazing, you know? And so I sat in and then, then he said, “We're gonna close the club tomorrow, and you're gonna do a clinic.” I said, “Okay!” (laughter) And then here, and I felt so outta place, because here I am trying to show them the idiom of American jazz, which wouldn't exist were it not for West African influences, ‘cause they had a little couple of pieces of the puzzle rearranged, kind of, and it turned-- B Biggs: By the end of the night, they were-- G Biggs: By the end of the night, they-- B Biggs: They totally had it. G Biggs: They got it immediately. And so I got to-- Downie: Well, they had the foundation. G Biggs: Yeah. So I got to sit in every-- Downie: It morphed into something different-- Downie: So I got to sit in a bunch and play. B Biggs: And then Komla took them out in the country and played with a whole bunch of African drummers, and Gunnar sitting there trying to do the, like the apentemma drum. And this little seven year-- Downie: Well, I remember Gunnar playing in Komla’s-- B Biggs: Yes, yes-- Downie: Classes and things. You know, the performances that-- B Biggs: That's right. Downie: What was the name of the-- B Biggs: Sankofa? (Dr. Amoaku’s Artists in Residence group, which CSUSM granted a stipend to support the university mission of diversity through arts.) G Biggs: Sankofa. Downie: Sankofa. That you would do-- G Biggs: Well, I knew enough to be dangerous (laughter). But when he took us to his home in Ho (Ghana), which was way up in the northern Volta region, they had these people waiting for us when we drove in, it was like midnight. And all the kids were gonna dance and drum for us. And they asked me to sit in again. So I'm playing this one part, and it's like, I remember this eight-year-old little boy going, “Yes, no, no, no, no. Yes. That's it. No, no, no.” (laughter). So I'm being totally humbled to the roots. B Biggs: By an 8-year-old. (laughter) G Biggs: But I remember everything he told me. B Biggs: Everything, yeah G Biggs: I mean, so-- B Biggs: So, anyway, it was my sabbatical. But he was the superstar. G Biggs: No, I didn't get on national radio. B Biggs: I got on national radio but what, but they would not let him come in. They actually had people with guns-- G Biggs: Fifty caliber gunmen placements. B Biggs: Over I guess, you know in, for national radio in a country that, I mean, there really weren't bad things going on-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Well, if there, if there's a coup, the first thing-- B Biggs: They go-- G Biggs: --people do is they take over the national communicate television and radio. Downie: Oh, true. Yeah. G Biggs: So they had these guys with helmets and fifty caliber machine guns. And you were, if you weren't on the list, they'd point the gun at you to keep walking. B Biggs: Gunnar was like, “I think I'll wait in the car for you.” G Biggs: I moved back to the, yeah-- B Biggs: It was just a quick interview. But about-- G Biggs: It was a good interview! B Biggs: --tribal. And it was a, it was nice in the interview to be able to talk about some of the similarities between the indigenous library, libraries in Ghana and the tribal libraries here in the country. So it was-- G Biggs: You did that at the University of Ghana too, remember? You went in there and you talked with them? B Biggs: I think so. G Biggs: Yeah. I was in the car waiting again. (laughter) B Biggs: You were probably, yeah. Yeah. G Biggs: But you talked to people at the university. B Biggs: And I may have at the university of--where did we go? British Columbia (Canada), I think I talked about, had an opportunity to, one of the many you know talks was to talk about that there are indigenous libraries in Africa as well. So, it was fun. What else? But yeah, his story, I mean, he was “Mr. Superstar” there. Yeah, you were. Yep. Downie: Okay. So well, we'll move on out of Africa and come back to the states here. (laughter) Talk about anything, anything you did at the CSU level rather than campus level. Anything that you did? B Biggs: Lots of talks. I'm trying to think. I actually got involved in development at one point. Fundraising. Downie: I kind of remember that. You were doing some fundraising. B Biggs: And there was a group that was formed out of San Luis Obispo, on librarians who were involved in development. I'm trying to make, remember the name of that group? Do you remember that? G Biggs: No. What about the California State Library? Recognizing. B Biggs: Oh, yeah. I mean, but that's not the CSU. G Biggs: No, but under this career accomplishment thing. B Biggs: Yeah, well that was a big one. Was the, you know, the assessment thing. That came out of having a relationship with a woman I met through AILA (American Indian Library Association), American Indian. She went on to become the state tribal library coordinator. Susan Hanks, I don't know if you remember Susan's name. Downie: That name sounds vaguely familiar-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Which didn't exist before you. B Biggs: Yeah, she, well, yeah. G Biggs: Sorry. B Biggs: National. ALA (American Library Association). I actually went from being involved with ALA with more, much more with AILA (American Indian Library Association). I would go to ALA meetings. But it was all about, you know, going to the AILA meetings. Downie: But you were the first non-Indian president-- B Biggs: President, of AILA. Yeah. And that's Lotsee’s (referring to Patterson) fault. She pushed me down that road. (laughter) G Biggs: And you got an award for a Librarian of the Year for-- B Biggs: Yeah, it was-- G Biggs: What was that award? B Biggs: I don't know. The plaque is in there. Downie: I remember typing up some of the newsletters for AILA. Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: I was your support person with Arts and Lectures. B Biggs: That's right. Right. It, I think they still have the group, and I wanna think it's Librarians of Color, which I'm not that colorful. I am part Cherokee, but I don't, I don't talk about that to, what's it called? Joint Conference Librarians of Color Distinguished Service Award. Yeah. Oh, that was a, what was the one we did the talk at? In the--people from--that were the Whakatau (pronounced with a “ph” sound). G Biggs: Whakahau. B Biggs: That was their actual name. G Biggs: They were Māori. B Biggs: Māori. G Biggs: Māori. B Biggs: And, and it was- G Biggs: New Zealand. B Biggs: Yeah. Indigenous First Peoples from all over the world. And that was, that was through AILA, my part was through AILA, but it was with International Indigenous Librarians (Forum, advocacy group for indigenous peoples in library systems). Yeah. Downie: Your influence-- B Biggs: This is bringing back weird memories, God. That's where they put him (Gunnar) in charge of helping. And he had like these five Indian women that were telling him what to do and how to do it. And he was like, “Whatever you say.” Downie: Whatever you want. (laughter) B Biggs: Palomar Library Association. Wow. Downie: Because I know you were, you would've been involved early on. B Biggs: Way early on. Yeah. Yeah. You were too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, I edited the newsletter for ten years. B Biggs: Right, right. Downie: But that was also what opened my contacts to where when I first, when I finished my master's, Connie Constantino (former Library Director, United States International University) reached out to me. And I knew her through Palomar Library Association. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. So do they still exist? Downie: No. It became San Diego Region Library Association. And then a couple years later it folded. There, just, I think there were too many divergent interests going on. And again, it's kind of like students you know, when they graduate out, you know, you gotta have at least one driving force. And I think we came to a period where it just wasn't a driving force anymore. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Not sure how far and deep I was involved with-- Downie: I know (overlapping dialogue) I've seen some photographs of you at events. B Biggs: At events, yeah. Downie: Because I just saw Alice Rigg (former president of the Palomar Library Association)-- B Biggs: Wow. Downie: About a month ago. B Biggs: Carolyn's in touch with her. Downie: Yeah. Carolyn (Funes) got in touch with me to get in touch with Alice. And Alice is moving, downsizing and moving in with her son, and so she found a couple of old photograph binders of early-- B Biggs: Wow. And she was pretty involved, right? (Downie affirms) I mean, she was, yeah. Yeah. Downie: It seemed like the public librarians were much more involved in Palomar Library Association than the academics were. I think because we probably just, we were also having-- B Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) Had all these other--yeah. Downie: --to publish and research and everything else, where the public librarians, this was a way for them to see each other and be able to congregate. Cause a lot of them couldn't go to ALA and stuff like that. There just wasn't any funding for the public librarians. B Biggs: I hadn't thought about Connie Constantino in forever-- G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Downie: But yeah. Were you there when they started the scholarship? Okay. B Biggs: I don't think so. Downie: Okay, because I know they had this scholarship. B Biggs: But I remember someone getting it. Yeah. I'm trying to think who. Downie: Cause I, I haven't been able to track down the memories of how the scholarship got started. B Biggs: Does Alice know? Have you talked to her or? Downie: She wasn't feeling too terribly well that day, so-- B Biggs: Okay. Downie: --no, I didn't really push her for a lot of stuff, but yeah. I may reach out to her again. So yeah, bringing up those old memories. (laughs) B Biggs: I mean, PLA (Palomar Library Association), I hadn't thought about that in forever. Well, PLA is also Public Library Association. (Downie affirms) But I mean, but the Palomar-- Downie: But Palomar. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Downie: But well, anyway, let's move on to your post-retirement work, because you certainly haven't rested on your laurels, so to speak. You've continued a lot of your initiatives and then you've also gone and done Love on a Leash (nonprofit organization providing pet therapy). But, I know that your liaison work, a lot of it was after you retired from the library. B Biggs: Right. So, Karen Haynes asked me to serve as tribal liaison. She was upset I was retiring as soon as I did. I think I was only sixty. G Biggs: You did it. You bought time. So it was early sixty. B Biggs: I bought time. So, so I was young, but I was ready. I mean, putting in twenty-two years at that, you know, place that the university was at was like putting in forty-four (laughs) in terms of-- Downie: It was a lot of work. B Biggs: --just everything starting from scratch. So, I was ready to retire. She (Haynes) asked me if I would stay on and do, and I got to just pick my hours work from home. I was on the rez ninety percent of the time. But that's when the, the community task force was really underway. And that's when we started NAC. And I stayed on NAC until just this year. So, I retired in 2007 totally, like stopped being tribal liaison in 2007. Retired as faculty in 2004. I am still, I guess, on the California Indian Sovereignty--Culture and Sovereignty Center (CICSC ; founded in 2009). I keep trying not to be, but I'm on. And so the things I continue to stay involved with, I'm trying to help this new Mejaumi (Franco-Rosales) who is replacing Tish(mall Turner) or filling some kind of tribal projects role until they find a tribal liaison. So I'm doing that. The big work now is working with Donna (Uchimura), Uncle Henry's daughter, to get Uncle Henry's archives digitized and to make sure that the family has a great deal of input and oversight. And so that one, that one's happening right now. I understand that Donna has let Joely (Proudfit) know who she wants to be on this committee. When Joely said she wanted to have a committee in this meeting with Donna, my first thought was, “You know what committee means to us.” (laughs) I thought, “Oh my gosh.” So, walking across the bridge with Donna, I said, “You know, you involve family to the extent that you want them.” And so (noise of a phone chime) she's done that. And Sean, she wants Sean (Visintainer). And she knows I'm trying to take a step back, but it's the one thing I can't not do. I just can't, for Henry's sake, I can't abandon the family until that’s done. Downie: Well, that and all parties trust you. You know, and you have such a long-established history of doing what's right and-- B Biggs: Yeah, there is trust. Downie: --I don’t think everybody else see their--see the path forward. It's very important. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And I stay in touch. You know, we just visited Pala (reservation) a couple weeks ago. Walked in and there's Chairman (Robert) Smith sitting there, but these are, these are people now who are Casino rich. And you know, so it's a whole different world, but they're just still folks who remember Gunnar and I putting books on a cart and running it over from a little trailer into the new building. So, we still have a relationship with a lot of those libraries. Rincon (California), we recently went out and gave them materials on Luiseño songs. G Biggs: Do you hear Zuni? (family dog) B Biggs: Is she in her dream? G Biggs: She's chirping. (laughs) B Biggs: She's having a dream. (laughs) Downie: And you know, because I worked under you as support staff for what was supposed to be a seven-month appointment, if I remember correctly-- B Biggs: Yes. Downie: Well it turned into four years! B Biggs: I know. Downie: But I would go home at night and I would talk to Dennis and Delaine about what was going on. And I mentioned your work with the tribal libraries. And do you remember Delaine's book project, where she gathered books from-- B Biggs: Oh, yeah. Downie: --from her elementary school to donate? B Biggs: Yes. I forgot all about that. Wow. Downie: No. That she, she came up with that idea on her own and, you know-- G Biggs: That's too cool. Downie: --I was so proud of her for doing that. But you know, you have inspired things to go out beyond your own efforts, which I think is really important. B Biggs: Oh, that's beautiful. Tell her thank you. (Gunnar laughs) Downie: I will. B Biggs: And can she fix my iPhone? No. (laughter) She works for Apple, right? Downie: She does. B Biggs: Check it out. Somebody you wanna know (laughter). One beautiful overlapping of that, is we have gone out twice, maybe three times, with therapy dogs to the Little Feathers School at Pala Library. So there's the library, and now there's Little Feathers School. Downie: Good. B Biggs: And I've talked a couple of really good friends into--I’ll drive, and it's a long drive--and to go out and take therapy dogs to-- Downie: Oh, that’s wonderful. B Biggs: --tribal kids. Yeah. So that, I have to set it up with her again to do that. But that, so that's like both worlds coming back together again, which is-- Downie: Because-- B Biggs: --a beautiful-- Downie: You, you've mentioned this, but there is Love on a Leash, which seems to be a huge portion of your life now. I mean, you were president of the local, the local chapter, right? B Biggs: Right. And National. G Biggs: National. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And vice president for ten years, and still very, very involved. My issue now is just organizing too many events. I'm doing What Gives Your Life Meaning? (CSUSM initiative and campaign for palliative care) in a couple weeks. And I'm having to, I've learned to say no, kind of, to this sorority, that fraternity, that you know, I just can't do--So we've narrowed it down to four big events at Cal State San Marcos. And six libraries and two-- Downie: And you've got all those volunteers to organize with their dogs. B Biggs: Yeah. That's what's going on. Yeah. It's kinda-- Downie: Multiple sessions. Yeah. And it's admirable that everybody wants you, but there's also, you could have dogs on campus every day. I mean, if you really-- B Biggs: I would love to. Downie: --accommodated everybody who asked. B Biggs: Can't do it. Can’t do it. That was a hard one. And I'm having to step down from Cardiff Library because I have twenty minutes down there, and only had one kid to read to the dogs. So it's like they never got it off the ground, two years now. So, and that's hard. Gunnar knows, like, I don't know how to say no. (laughs) And learning to do that. But yeah, that's a, definitely a passion. And I love the university. I think that's the most important. Downie: Well, you do have your bench on the campus, it says-- B Biggs: That's right. (overlapping dialogue) He (Gunnar) calls me a bench! (laughs) Downie: --"I love this university,” I believe is what it says on it. B Biggs: Yes, it does. Yeah. Downie: Right next to the one with Dannis (Mitchell, deceased library employee). B Biggs: Yes, yes. (unintelligible) Yeah. Downie: So, I usually have a closing question. Because we've kind of been through my list here, but is there anything you can think about that, you know, or a culminating statement that you would want to say about the years you've had with Cal State? And you too Gunnar? I mean, you've, you've jumped in and reminded and brought up a few things, but-- B Biggs: I love that university, and I love what it gave me the opportunity to do in terms of the work with tribes, the work with Arts and Lectures. Owing books to, you know, I mean, I did work with patrons, but these other peripheral responsibilities are--run deep and are so meaningful to me. So I'm grateful for the opportunity. And even better to bring my dogs back. G Biggs: Yeah. B Biggs: That's just the best. (laughs) G Biggs: Well, for me, because I did take such a long time off from higher education, it is a home that I found. I got a bachelor's degree there that they let me design. It didn't exist before. I didn't know that was possible. The faculty there said, “You can do this.” I got a single subject California teaching credential there, and I actually taught there for three years as well. So, I consider it my academic home. I feel really at home out there. And I still know people that teach there, which is kind of cool. But it was very accepting to me, very flexible and of the highest quality. I mean, the, I almost said floundering. The founding faculty (laughs) came from such great places. They were really good teachers, researchers, and human beings. I was really just totally immersed in their lives and their subjects. So, it was really a nice place to finish up that part. For me. Downie: And I have to agree wholeheartedly with both of you. B Biggs: Aw. When you turn this (recording) off, I have one final story. Downie: Okay. (laughs) Alright, well I think we can end the interview at this point. So if you'll pass the phone over to me, I'll find the off button, wherever it is. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_2024-03-26.xml BiggsBonnie_and_BiggsGunnar_2024-03-26.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Biggs, Bonnie, and Gunnar Biggs. Interview March 26, 2024. Description An account of the resource Bonnie Biggs was the inaugural Tribal Liaison and a Librarian Emeritus at California State University San Marcos. Gunnar Biggs has been a prominent figure in the musical environment in Southern California for over forty years, and is a retired music instructor from San Diego State University and Palomar College. In this interview, Bonnie and Gunnar recall the early history of CSUSM when it transitioned as the North County satellite campus for San Diego State University into CSUSM in 1989. Bonnie also discusses her academic and professional achievements, including her work as the university's Tribal Liaison. Bonnie and Gunnar additionally recall her sabbatical to Ghana, Ghanaian jazz music and musicians, visiting and working with tribal libraries in New Mexico, and Bonnie's most recent work with Love on a Leash. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-055 Subject The topic of the resource American Indian Library Association California Indians California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Tribal Liaison California State University San Marcos. University Library Libraries -- Ghana Jazz -- Ghana Jazz musicians -- Ghana Love on a Leash Patterson, Lotsee Rodriguez, Henry Nichols, 1919-2002 Tribal libraries -- New Mexico Tribal libraries -- Southern California Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-03-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bonnie Biggs Gunnar Biggs Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ghana New Mexico San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs Art and artists Community history CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/74d79b268796f9fd4fe70c39672ea551.pdf b89704ddedb683cf46b70c975e8540c2 PDF Text Text BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: All right, so we are now running. Okay. So, this is Judith Downie, curator of the Brewchive® (archive dedicated to preserving the history of the craft brewing industry in San Diego, CA) and History Librarian and Special Collections at Cal State San Marcos, with Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs to talk about Bonnie and Gunnar's history of Cal State San Marcos and other related pieces of their lives. So, I'm, this picks up pretty well. So we shouldn't have-Bonnie Biggs: Oh, it does. Okay. You want me to sit down? Downie: Well, or let's see. We can maybe put it between the two of you. Okay. You know, because whatever I say, I'll just say it loudly. B Biggs: Oh, okay. Downie: So, yeah, again, this will be Bonnie for the most part, but Gunnar will certainly be jumping in with memory jogs and his personal recollections as well. So, let's start off with Bonnie, your personal history. Where-B Biggs: Okay. Downie: Where did you grow up and some background on your education. B Biggs: Okay. I grew up not far from you (referring to Downie; laughs). I grew up in Vista, California and went to Vista High School. Then I went on to Palomar College, got an AA (Associate in Arts) degree, went to San Diego State, got a BA (Bachelor of Arts) in British Literature after the 1800s. And then onto USC (University of Southern California) for my Master's in Library Science. Downie: Okay. Gunnar, how about you? Gunnar Biggs: Oh. Downie: Where did you grow up, and your education? G Biggs: I grew up in San Diego, California, about a block from San Diego State (University; SDSU). My father was a faculty member in the music department there. And from there I went to North Texas State University in Denton, Texas for a couple of years. Then I took a twentyyear gap, going on the road playing music. And I came back and I got my bachelor's at Cal State San Marcos in Ethnic Studies and Global Arts, after completing my general ed(ucation) at Palomar College. And that's, yeah, that's about it in terms of my education. Downie: Okay. And so where did the two of you meet? B Biggs: Jazz Club. G Biggs: It was the Hyatt Islandia on Mission Bay. (laughs) Downie: Gunnar’s got the details. (Laughs) Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a friend take me to, to hear the French horn player. They usually don't play jazz, and this phenomenal famous piano player, but I liked the bass player. G Biggs: Which is very unusual (laughter) for the bass player to get the nod, you know? B Biggs: Yeah. So that's, and that was in 1981. Downie: Alright. So, let's move on to your professional history, Bonnie. I've sketched out a timeline from what I know, but of course I can be imperfect. So, we'll start with, I know you worked in public libraries-B Biggs: Yes. Downie: Before you moved into the academic library field. B Biggs: Yeah. I started my career at the Encinitas Library. Not the one we see now, the big beautiful one (snapping noise). But on that same site in 1973, and I worked there for nine years. And then I was moved to Solana Beach to become the branch manager for four years. And during that time, met him (Gunnar) and started going to grad school up at USC while I managed the Solana Beach Library. And when I got my master's I started looking around, and that's when I found SDSU North County. (I) was looking for a library (overlapping dialogue). Downie: So, what year would that have been? B Biggs: The SDSU North County? I would've started in 1986. Downie: Okay. B Biggs: And we were-Downie: That was long after they had established that satellite campus (SDSU North Couty satellite campus that officially became CSUSM in 1989). B Biggs: Right. I think it had been around, I think since the late seventies. I'm sure you've got history in the (overlapping dialogue) archives. Downie: Limited history, limited history. I think it's mostly at San Diego State. B Biggs: Yeah. So, it was San Diego State North County, and I was the librarian, and under the wonderful Dick Rush (CSUSM's first executive vice president). Whom we (Bonnie and Gunnar) just saw a couple weeks ago, had lunch with him. And what was interesting, he was less interested in my librarianship as my arts and lectures chops, because I had been doing music and a lot of outreach in the public library system. And he wanted to get San Diego State North County out to the community. We were in Jerome's (furniture store in San Marcos) parking lot, right. So we started having concerts, thanks to Gunnar. We got amazing musicians and put on festivals and, you know, Mexican fiestas and jazz con- you know, jazz. It was like a festival, actually-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 G Biggs: It was a jazz festival. B Biggs: So, so we started doing that. And then of course, I had to be a librarian too. That was always the thing. I had to do both. And that carried over when we (SDSU North County satellite campus) became Cal State San Marcos. Downie: So then you were at San Diego State North County while it was still in Vista (California). B Biggs: It wasn't in Vista at that time, but yeah, I know what you're talking about. It was, it had just started in San Marcos. But I know where that campus was. It was in the old Vista High, where I went to high school. So by ‘86 when I started, they had already moved into the Jerome's lot (building used for the campus that later became that furniture store). Downie: Oh, okay. That’s all very fuzzy in our records, so I've never been too sure. So that helps clarify that. B Biggs: Sandy Punch (retired CSUSM administrator) might be a good one to talk to. In fact, I have lunch with her this month. Yeah. Downie: Tell her I'm hunting for her. (laughs) B Biggs: I will, I'll do that. She'll love it. Downie: Okay. So, you were there for the transitionB Biggs: Oh, boy. Downie: To San Diego State North County. So, you never actually worked at San Diego State Libraries? B Biggs: No, San Diego State North County only. But I will tell you there, there were a couple of librarians at the main campus who were my mentors and who helped me make that transition, because it's a different world andDownie: From public to academic. B Biggs: Oh my goodness. Yeah. So, Philip White comes to mind. He was a very, very good friend. And he even came up a couple of times. Just having to do with working with faculty, developing the collection. The trick was the faculty was changing because they were starting to phase out North Count-- Well, they were solid for a while, but we were bringing in Cal State San Marcos faculty. So at one point I was reporting to two deans. When they hired Marion (Reid), she became my dean of the library. But I also was reporting kind of to Pat Huckle, who was the dean of San Diego State North County. Whom we just saw last week. We took her to lunch. So I stay in touch with the, these wonderful leaders that I got to, to work with. Downie: Okay, so you didn't have to move San Diego State North County or CSUSM to the Valecito site, Jerome's (Bonnie affirms) West, as we all call it. Because it had already moved. Transcribed by Aaron 3 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 But what sorts of, I mean, you were answering to two deans (Bonnie affirms) at the very least. But there must have been other challenges and opportunities in this whole transition from being a satellite of San Diego State University to its own freestanding Cal State San Marcos. So, what do you remember of that? B Biggs: I remember that it, I didn't know that much about academic politics at the time, but I remember there was a lot of it. And (I) started to figure out what the landscape was and just treaded very carefully, made friends with a lot of the faculty. David Whitehorse comes to mind, he’s one of my best friends there. He was San Diego State North County. And then beginning to get to know the founding faculty at Cal State (San Marcos). I remember there was a part of us at San Diego State North County who didn't want the change. We were thrilled that the state wanted to have this new university. We just had a nice little comfy warm tight-knit organization. And so, it was chaos for a while. And bringing Bill Stacy (founding president, CSUSM) on, luckily he and Dick Rush got along pretty well. As they also transitioned from one to the other. G Biggs: Didn't they fast track the change over? It was, it happened before people had-B Biggs: Very quick. G Biggs: --predicted. It was one day they were a satellite, and the next day they said, “We're about to move to the new campus as soon as it builds in.” You know, so. B Biggs: I'm trying to think who the governor was at the time that came down. G Biggs: Yeah. It was like, it was a governor's decision to go-B Biggs: And signed the paperwork. Downie: Was that (George) Deukmejian? (laughs) B Biggs: It wasn't, no. Wasn't (Bill) Craven. I mean, it was, was it a senator? Anyway, some, some, I have a photo in one of these somewhere of-Downie: Well, we have a signed certificate, I think from (Governor) Gray Davis. B Biggs: That might, that was probably it. Yeah. Yeah. He would've been the governor then. Yeah. So, that was when things got a little bit strange because we started to phase things out at North County and move. And that's when we took over the other building across the street. And the library moved into that space. Marion coming from, 'cause there, there's a question here (laughs). How, you know, she didn't know what to call me or what to offer me as a position because, to have called me Assistant Dean, that implies tenure and, you know, academic credit that far exceeded what I had at the time. I was just, you know, a public librarian learning to be. So she, but generously, I think it was generous, she gave me the title of Assistant to the Dean. And of course I was that, I assisted her on many things, head of, then it became Head of Public Services, or (unintelligible), it was called Coordinator for Public Services. They call it patron, is it now, it's not public services-Downie: User services, (overlapping) what we call it. Transcribed by Aaron 4 Williams 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: User services, I like that. Yeah. And then later Arts and Lectures (curriculum-linked events produced by CSUSM College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral and Social Sciences). So there, there I had one business card with three titles on it, which I think a lot of people did at that new university. Downie: Yeah. We all had to do a variety of jobs. And we were not in the, centralized or no, I forget what the term is, but where you just kind of did things. It got done, it got taken care of, and it's gotten so much structure-B Biggs: Crossing lines-Downie: Permissions and paying for everything. Where it used to just be, it got done and somebody covered the cost. (Bonnie affirms). But it does seem like there would've been a lot of long hours and obviously confusion as to lines of responsibility, but it got worked out. B Biggs: It really did. Downie: Seems like. B Biggs: And luckily, on one end, we had Dick Rush who, I got to tell him at lunch a couple weeks ago, what a wonderful leader he was. He constantly took time out, when we didn't even have time to go to the bathroom or breathe and gather us around his desk or somewhere in the library, and just let us know how wonderful we were and how much our work was appreciated. And what that does, you know, it gives you a shot in the arm and you just keep going. And Pat Huckle was the one, again my other dean saying, “Bonnie, at the end of the day, it's just gonna be a dead librarian if we keep this up.” (Gunnar laughs) Meaning she got--I told her about that the other day. (Laughs) It, she gave me the permission to place some limits in my ability to do all the stuff we were required to do. We were thought to be doing. And I don't know that that slowed me down a whole lot, but-Downie: Probably not. B Biggs: Yeah. G Biggs: Well, Dick, Dick told you the library is the heart of a university. (Bonnnie affirms). So that's where he came from. Initially it was like, build this library and you will have a successful university. So that kind of put the weight on your shoulders. (Bonnie affirms). “Okay, I gotta build the heart.” B Biggs: And the fact that he wanted the arts made such a difference in that tiny little Jerome's library, bringing the principal brass of the San Diego Symphony because of his (Gunnar) connections, for a concert. And Peter Sprague (jazz guitarist) out in the parking lot. It just, it put us on the map, in a tiny way. Because people saw, that there, there actually was a campus there kind of (laughs). Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Yeah. So even years later, I was at a conference and somebody said, “Oh, San Diego State North County.” I'm like, “No, we haven't been that for a number of years, thank you very much.” B Biggs: Yes, yes, yes. (laughs). Downie: But you know, if you're not right there in the thick of it, you didn’t realize-B BIggs: It was 1989 when I think, I mean, that's a date that really sticks out, I had been there three years. And 1989 was when we were signed-Downie: When Bill Stacy came in and-B Biggs: Right. Downie: Brought in the founding faculty and-B Biggs: Right. And that's-- (overlapping dialogue) Downie: --things started really changing. B Biggs: Have you gotten all the founding faculty? I'm assuming you've-Downie: Marion got oral histories from-B Biggs: Oh, good. Downie: --I think everybody, and it would be nice to go back to some of them and, get a looking back now, what you saw then versus what you're, what you’ve-B Biggs: In retrospect. (overlapping dialogue) What, yeah. Downie: In retrospect view of that, that could be extremely interesting. But so, you were there to move into the permanent campus on Twin Oaks Valley Road. And that was while I was not on campus. That was during my period of exile, as I call it, after I got my master's. And I went down to United States International University. So that's, there's a chunk of campus history that I didn't personally experience-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: How long were you-Downie: I was there eighteen months. B Biggs: At, at USIU. Downie: Yeah. B Biggs: Okay, yeah. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: And so, and of course-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: I forgot that. Downie: --being that the position I was in as a staff person when I left, I was not involved in planning or any of that sort of thing. (Bonnie affirms), I'm sure you were, I know Marion certainly was. Way-- (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: Oh yeah. Way deep. (overlapping dialogue) Downie: Way, deep, deep, deep into it. But you certainly had a lot of input as well. So, what do you remember about running up to moving onto the permanent campus at Twin Oaks Valley (Road) and then the move? Other than we had to borrow book carts from everybody, every library in the county. B Biggs: Yes. I remember that. Of course, Marion was much more in charge of that and involved. I think I was doing more hands-on and working with a few staff. We had to fill those book carts and get things moved into the library. I will say a major memory of that was that we were not invited to the groundbreaking. I just have to go on record to say that. And there were many people who had been doing that kind of work, high level work. You know, like Marion, she was there. But those of us who helped build the foundation of that university--San Diego State North County--were not invited to the groundbreaking. So that, that's something that's one of the few bitter kind of, “Really?” (Downie affirms) Kind of thing. Maybe Dick was, yeah, I'm sure he went because he had transitioned-G Biggs: There's a picture, there's of all the shovel people-B Biggs: All the shovels. No (San Diego State) North County people. So that was interesting. (Downie affirms) And it is kind of a blur. I mean, all of the nuts and bolts and physical work. I just remember it being a lot of physical hard work, getting--Marion probably was up here (referring to planning and coordination of the campus move) more than, you know, the moving of the materials. And-G Biggs: They got somebody local that had a moving company to help move the collection, box them up-B Biggs: And I, I think Jim Hanson may have helped. G Biggs: Jim Hanson was on there, but I forget who it was that had trucks. He had a moving company, right? B Biggs: I don't remember that. Downie: Well, they were, they were flatbed trucks with board sides, and we had all those book trucks. And the day we moved the collection, it was raining. So we had to wrap all the book trucks in plastic-B Biggs: I remember that now. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: To move them into Craven Hall, which is now the Administration Building. B Biggs: Right. Downie: And then of course, the ceiling was leaking, even though the books were on the fourth floor, we didn't have our shelving yet. So, the books were sitting on the floor. (laughs) B Biggs: You have more memories of that-G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: --than I do. That's interesting. I, yeah. Downie: Well, again, you had other responsibilities that you were running the arts programs and, (Bonnie affirms) you know, everything. And (overlapping dialogue) areas of responsibility. B Biggs: And all the Indian stuff had started by then too because, you know Whitehorse, the way it started was David Whitehorse (School of Education Emeritus faculty) walked into my office. He was standing as State North County faculty and said, “The plan of cooperation between the county library system and the tribes is dissolving, they’re--what can you do about it?” Like, “How do I (Biggs) know what to do about it?” (Downie laughs). So, I had started going out and working with the tribes at that point. We had American Indian Storytellings-G Biggs: Storytelling. B Biggs: --we had the American Indian culture--we couldn't call it a powow--culture fair, inside and over at the Red Barn (Williams Barn, San Marcos, California). So I was kind of doing a lot of that stuff at the same time. That's why I don't have really clear memories of the actual movement of the books. But-G Biggs: That’s where you met Uncle Henry (Rodriguez; Native American water rights activist; instrumental in preserving indigenous California culture) was at the, at the storytellings. B Biggs: Yeah. He was, yes. G Biggs: I see that down there, yeah. Downie: So that really kind of segues beautifully into the next session, which is your work with the local tribes, the California tribal libraries. So, how did you actually become interested in this particular part of our population? B Biggs: Yeah. Well, David Whitehorse told me I had to (combined laughter). I mean, when he said, when I looked at the plan of cooperation it was a plan, very loose plan that the San Diego County Library system, which is thirty-three branches from Otay Mesa to Fallbrook. And the system I came from, they had a plan of cooperation. It just meant that they would do some interlibrary loan and maybe occasionally go out and help, you know, people with collection development. But it all of a sudden was dissolving. And so, I'm trying to think of the timing. It Transcribed by Aaron 8 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 was at a time, one of those times when the budget was going to hell in California. So, they were pulling funding back and staffing ability to go out and even do the little bit that they were doing. So, David wanted to know what I was gonna do about it. So, I did start going out to some of the local libraries: Pala, Rincon, Pauma, La Jolla, San Pasquale, just the local, the most local (to North County San Diego), not south. There were no casinos for many years until after I started working with them (California tribal libraries). So, it was more just about getting an assessment of who had what. Some of them had combination museums and libraries, which is not uncommon on most tribal land. So, I just started developing. I would say, and I tell people this, it took seven years to get totally trusted and implanted into the culture. You don't just go out and say, “Hi, I'm a white librarian, I'm gonna help you out.” (Laughs) It really did take years and years and years. But doing things like “Prez to the Rez,” taking the (university) presidents out there developing tribal communities, task forces, I'm getting ahead of myself, but that, it was that kind of stuff that gained the trust of the tribal communities. And the big part of that, ultimately, first it was, do something because the library system is abandoning them. But the more important thing was we need to get these Indian students to the university to trust coming to a university. Lots of history on that, you know, with what we did to native people in boarding schools. So, it really did take a long time to gain the trust, and the numbers show now that our native population at the university is one of the highest, last I looked, in all the CSUs (California State Universities). So, and we were the first to have a tribal liaison. And it was Tish (Tishmall Turner). No, it wasn’t (laughs). You saw that. That was a-Downie: Well, this is a problem with a lot of the firsts that we've done on the campus is nobody stopped to think, this is the first we need, we need to record this somewhere. And responsibilities have moved from department to department. From unit to unit. Across. And then we've had changes in presidents, changes in everything. B Biggs: Deans and-Downie: So after a while, yes, it gets lost. B Biggs: That's why archives are so, I mean seriously, it's so important, especially with a university this young. You got, I'm glad Jen (Fabbi) is moving there (to CSUSM’s Special Collections). I mean, you need all the help you can get, and you've got an opportunity before it gets too far down the road to capture all this amazing history. Downie: Cause we've already lost some very key players. That, you know, you can't go and interview them now. Unfortunately. B Biggs: No. No, I know. Downie: So, yeah. So it's become, becoming more critical all the time. B Biggs: Yeah. Did somebody, I'm sure they did. They must have interviewed Dick Rush at some point. So-Downie: Nobody's interviewed Dick Rush yet. Transcribed by Aaron 9 Williams 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: Wow. Downie: Yeah. No, we, we have his papers. I mean, he doc-B Biggs: He did. That's right. Downie: We have more paper from Dick Rush in boxes in Special Collections than from anybody else. G Biggs: Do you (Bonnie) still have your yellow legal pad thing where Dick had (overlapping dialogue) bullets for what, what he wanted you to do? Handwritten. B Biggs: We’ll have to find that. But, you know, we're gonna go up mid-April, just for a twonight trip for our anniversary, our fortieth anniversary. And we're gonna see Dick probably, we'll probably stop in Camarillo (city in California). And should I ask him if he is interested in being interviewed? Downie: Yeah, please. B Biggs: Okay. That would, wow. I mean, because beyond those boxes, this is somebody-Downie: Oh, there's so much more. B Biggs: Somebody who really, really knows the story. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, because he was there from ground zero, basically. B Biggs: He was a British literature professor at (Downie laughs) San Diego State. Downie: Those Brit Lit people, I tell you. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Downie: So I know that you have mentioned to me over time that you went, you know, when you were first working with the tribal libraries, that you would go to tribal councils and you would just sit there and just listen. (Bonnie affirms) And, you know, speak when you were spoken to or invited to speak, things like that. But where did you meet Uncle Henry (Rodriguez)? B Biggs: I think at a powwow (a social gathering celebrating Indigenous American culture). G Biggs: Or a, well, there's a picture of him at the Red Barn with Lee Dixon (Pauma Band of Mission Indians). AndB Biggs: So it would've been the American Indian-G Biggs: Find that picture-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: --culture fair, we couldn't have powwows yet. And David (Whitehorse) helped organize those. So that was when we were still San Diego State North County. And he (Rodriguez) was always invited as an elder to give the blessing. And he did that for us until the day he died. But commencements and powwows, so met him there. I'm trying to think how I got close to him. Just got close to him. Downie: He was a very astute man. (Bonnie affirms) He probably saw your empathy and connection. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And he knew I was working with the tribal libraries. I'd come, I'd go to the La Jolla Reservation, which is way up Palomar Mountain. They had like a room with- so many of these libraries all around the country, really. Or a couple of shelves of books. One of them at Manzanita (Reservation of the Manzanita Band of the Kumeyaay Nation), I think was a bookshelf in a fire department. That was their library, you know, and people took me in and said, “Here's our library.” And yeah. So, Henry (Rodriguez) knew I was doing that work, and yeah. He knew I--to say in Luiseño, I had a good heart, I guess is. Downie: Okay. And you've already talked about bringing the powwow to campus, but it was the American Cultural Fair. Before the American Indian Cultural Fair. Before it was actually a powwow. What were the mechanisms by where it could become a powwow? B Biggs: Yeah. It had to be, of course outside, and with a number of different things, different dancers, different singers. Bird songs are important for local culture. So it, you saw a couple of them, I'm sure. It's huge. It's not something that you hold inside. So the parameters are really about dancers and music and a processional. So Henry (Rodriguez) would often, with me and Whitehorse, lead the procession. There's a blessing of the field. So, probably an Indian person could tell you more what the specifics were you, you would have a--what was Randy Edmonds (American Indian Tribal Leader)? Barry, what was Randy Edmonds? G Biggs: Randy Edmonds was the MC. B Biggs: He was the master of ceremony. So, soDownie: Randy’s last name? B Biggs: Randy Edmonds. Downie: Edmonds. B Biggs: And he's still alive. I just heard something about him the other day. So, there were just a whole bunch of things. The idea of the American Indian Culture Fair was to at least get people used to it. So there would be a prayer and a blessing at a table. Got pictures of that stuff going with Henry. But, and I think they could do like a few small bird songs and maybe a little, you know, dances. But, they would have booths. And it was just a mini powwow is the best way to describe it. Powwow didn't happen till we moved to the campus. And we had that lower field, which I think is soccer now. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 11 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: It's used a lot for soccer, but I think it could be used for other sports as well. Yeah, it's right down there at the, on the corner of the entrance on Twin Oak Valley Road. B Biggs: Right. We always drive by when I'm on campus, “There's the powwow field.” That was huge. And I don't know if you know there's an Indian store over here (referencing a picture). They just closed or they're moving this. Downie: Oh, they closed. B Biggs: Yeah, but we were in there and recently just to help with any, you know, buying things. And the guy said, I said, “Do you remember me? I,” and he goes, “Oh yeah. Was (referring to the CSUSM American Indian Cultural Fair) the best organized powwow ever.” Because they went to all the tribes. Downie: Oh, I'm sure they did. B Biggs: I said, “It's because a librarian organized it.” (laughter; overlapping dialogue) Librarians-Downie( Exactly. You put a librarian on it, it's gonna be organized. B Biggs: I know. He was. Yeah. So, they were always there and selling things. What were you trying toG Biggs: I was trying to find that picture of the lineup. B Biggs: The perfect processional, yeah. G Biggs: Lee Dixon, who's passed away. Jane Dumas. David Whitehorse, Uncle Henry. You (Bonnie Biggs) and somebody else, they're all lined up. But that was in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Downie: We have a few pictures of the Cultural Fair, what was going on in the Red Barn. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: And-G Biggs: Yeah, Randy Edmonds charged me with carrying Carol Bonomo (CSUSM Administrator Emeritus) out of the arena. They had just smudged blessed the arena, and you weren't, you weren't to enter the arena after that. And Carol comes across there and Randy goes, “Go get her and get her out of there.” So, I had to pick up Carol and-B Biggs: Small, she's small. (overlapping dialogue; laughter) G Biggs: I know. And carry her out the arena, kicking and screaming. She tells that story all the time. Transcribed by Aaron 12 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: All the time. Yeah. She loves that story. G Biggs: And I said, “It's not me! I was told to do this, so I do this.” B Biggs: (laughs) It was, yeah. G Biggs: But there's certain protocols for the, like that. You don't enter the arena after it's been blessed and stuff like that. B Biggs: And I don't, I can't even remember how many years it went on, but after many years I think I was starting to think about retirement, but the students took over. Downie: Yeah, the American Indian Student Alliance. B Biggs: And it didn’t-Downie: They did it, I think, for two years. And then being that the student population changes, you don't have the continuity that you have-B Biggs: Exactly. Downie: --of actual employed staff and faculty to lead something. I mean, I've seen that happen so many times with the student organizations. They'll be there for a year or so, and then the person who was excited and found it, graduates. Good for them. Yes. But then they haven't developed a line of succession either. (Bonnie affirms) And then something else will pop up. But-B Biggs: Yeah, that was unfortunate. And people were sad about it. And I think right after that, either I was going up for tenure--that's what it was, Whitehorse and I finally said, “You know, we better do this tenure thing.” And so suddenly I started publishing, you know, in a flying hurry. I'd done some, and then that's what it was. Yeah, we both had to step down. Downie: Tenure becomes quite the time suck. B Biggs: I'll never forget Dick (Rush) telling me, because I was just being a librarian, I didn't understand the whole, again because I wasn't really part of yet of the faculty. Downie: Well, we didn't have a faculty mentorship program that we do now. There was really, you were just doing what had to be done. And hopefully somebody told you. B Biggs: All of sudden, oh, you're supposed to write about this. Okay. And that was another thing, is doing all of the publications I did, all had to do with tribal libraries. You have to be careful, you know, and respectful, and vet things. And so that was, that sort of added to the lengths of time to get things done. Downie: And so, as part of your scholarly work of course, was the California Tribal Library Survey, which that was, was on a sabbatical, right? Transcribed by Aaron 13 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: You know, the, the strange thing was the first sabbatical was Africa, right after I got tenure. And then the State Library of California paid my--paid the university, gave Marion money to cover me while I did that survey. The second actual one was going around and doing the New Mexico Pueblos. So that was my sabbatical. The second one. Yeah, the first one was right, you know right after you get tenure, you get a sabbatical. That was Africa. And-Downie: Well, now you can apply for a sabbatical and hope you get one. (laughs) B Biggs: Hope you get one. Exactly. And the, and the second one, and I'm trying to remember how long afterwards that was. G Biggs: What, Africa? Downie: It's usually (overlapping dialogue) every six years-B Biggs: Yeah, something like that. Yeah. And then, but the, the census and needs assessment for the State Library of California was just a thing that they asked me to do because I'd become involved in, so that took us all the way up to a sheet. Yeah. So-Downie: And that was 2001, 2002, as it says on the spine, a very fat binder. (laughter) B Biggs: Yes. Of a very fat binder. And he (Gunnar) was on that one. I have no sense of direction. So, Gunnar drove me. Not only there, because a lot of the you know, reservations are really way out there and not very well signed. You see the signages, “Go three rocks up past the, you know, the oak tree and turn left.” Same thing with going around to the Pueblos in New Mexico. And I went on that trip because Lotsee Patterson (librarian and founder of the American Indian Library Association), my mentor, said that the best tribal library system in the country was within the pueblos of New Mexico (referring to the physical establishments of the Pueblo peoples). And that's because she helped guide them along for decades. And it was an amazing trip. Downie: And how did you meet Lotsee? B Biggs: At an AL- AILA, American Indian Library Association meeting. And we rode in a taxi somewhere, and I remember-G Biggs: Chicago. B Biggs: --remember thinking, “Oh my God, I'm in a taxi with Lotsee Paterson.” (laughter) And she was the most likable, lovable, again, we talked to her just a few weeks ago. She got her materials to Sean (Visintainer; Head of CSUSM Special Collections) for, yeah. But she's the one, I mean, everything really centers around her. And we just became friends and I guess kind of a, she was kind of a mentor and a not in a real strict way but she, just by way of being around her she was mentoring me. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 14 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Well, I think that's a very much cultural way is just simply organically as it happens, you pass your knowledge onto someone else rather than the formal academic environment that you know, we commonly think of. G Biggs: She would take the students on a summer trip to the pueblos. And we would, we tagged along on one of those. So, in desert summer in New Mexico with our dog in the car and everything, but we would go to library to library, and she (Patterson) would know everybody. Down to the tribal policeman that tried to throw us out once, you know. “How's your cousin doing?” And he'd look at her and he'd go, “Oh my goodness, go ahead.” You know. (laughter) But without those kind of inroads, you don't just walk into a-B Biggs: And she helped me get entre into all of the, all of the Pueblos who are just phenomenal people. Yeah. Downie: Lots of, lots of accomplishments there. So that will bring us onto your other career accomplishments. On campus, I know that you were the first librarian faculty to serve as the Academic Senate chair, which was a pretty big deal because there weren't too many of us librarians (Bonnie affirms). G Biggs: --weren’t Chair though. Downie: Number one (laughs). B Biggs: Right. There weren't, and, but the deal was, this is very strange, and I have to find it. I'd been senate vice chair for maybe four years, and I think by the time Bud Morris (Dr. G.H. “Bud” Morris; professor of communications and former Academic Senate chair) was ready to step down, I said, “Okay, I will go ahead and do this.” But I stepped out. I didn't, I ended up not serving as chair. And it was because I was getting ready to retire. I think that would've been 2004. And Karen (Haynes; President of CSUSM 2004 to 2019) had just said to me, “Will you be tribal liaison?” So, I ended up not serving. I think I was the only person who was voted, and also the only person who ever said, “I'm not gonna do it.” And that was, that was a big stink. And even Alex Gonzalez (former CSUSM President 1997-2003) was pissed at me (Gunnar laughs). I hated--didn't care for him. (laughs) But no so I didn't, but I served certainly for, I don't know, fifteen years on the executive committee and then four years as vice chair. Ick. Ick. Downie: That was certainly long enough. But, that's what people had to do. I mean, there weren't that many people to serve in positions. Patty Seleski (CSUSM Professor Emerita) was, what, History Department chair for twelve years? (Bonnie affirms) Because she just said, “I'll take it on, because the junior faculty need to be able to work and get their tenure.” (overlapping dialogue) B Biggs: And do their research, and yeah. Exactly. Downie: So, we made sacrifices in some ways. B Biggs: We just talked to Pat (Seleski) last week when we went down. She's almost blind now, but she said that she was senate chair for three years straight. I don't think we've had anyone do that many years straight. Have we? Transcribed by Aaron 15 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Somebody recently did do I think two terms. B Biggs: Okay. Downie: But that was when it was one-year terms. Now it's become a two-year term. B Biggs: Has it? Okay. Downie: Glen Brodowsky (CSUSM Marketing Professor) is chair right now. B Biggs: Glen is, and he was always on (academic) senate with me. (overlapping dialogue) I love Glen. Downie: So, but any other firsts that you did? I mean, you certainly started the Arts and Lectures program. You certainly brought, you know, the tribal collaboration and partnerships to campus. But what, what other sorts of things? B Biggs: Firsts? G Biggs: Tribal liaison. Tribal Liaison. B Biggs: Oh, the tribal liaison I think is really important because, there were none anywhere. And so, establishing those relationships in the tribal communities task force, sort of paved the road. You read that history that I corrected that went to Patricia, Patricia (Prado)-Olmos. So, I think that that's probably, if I were to say the one thing I was most proud of, is that we established a position on campus that was about serving native communities. And then now that, I understand that they've got a couple in other CSUs, they have something. Maybe not the exact title at SDSU. And then the UCs (Universities of California) got a couple now. But we didn't have, there wasn't anyone. And yeah, I didn't like the fact that it was forgotten that there was someone who was before Tishmall. But getting Tishmall there as a local Luiseño tribal member was so important. Getting Joely Proudfit (Department Chair and Professor, American Indian Studies Department) to come to campus was, that was amazing. You know we lured her away from CSU San Bernadino, and to get a couple of local tribal people, really what that does is it opens the door for native students. I mean, we started that by having our tribal community task force. We go out to the rez, “Prez to the Rez”. We do things out there to bring people in. Untrusting native students and families started to see that we were a safe place for them to come. But the tribal liaison position, probably I would say, I would think the most important thing that I accomplished. Downie: Would you say, if I remember correctly, San Diego County has more tribes than any other county in California? B Biggs: Federally recognized. Yeah. Downie: Federally recognized. Okay. Would you say that was maybe one of the reasons that we could be the first in that? Because-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 16 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: I would think so. Downie: --there was just a larger population to work with. B Biggs: We had a larger population, and we had, we were young enough. Karen Haynes was one hundred percent behind it. I was on her search committee, and I got to ask one question, each of the faculty members (got to ask one question). And mine was, “We have nineteen federally recognized tribes in the county of San Diego. What do you think you would like to do, if you became president, about that?” And she said, “First of all, I would talk to people who know about it, and know what the needs are, and want to meet with the native people.” And I was like, “You're hired.” Downie: Ding, ding, ding, ding. (laughter) B Biggs: You're hired. So it was really having a leader on campus who was one hundred percent behind doing this work. And she came to a number of our, before we had NAC (Native Advisory Council), came to a lot of our tribal communities task force meetings, just to hear--that was getting people from business, you know, you think it's- Who, Raj (Dr. Rajnandini, CSUSM Professor of Management)? Is Raj still there? Downie: I believe so, yeah. B Biggs: And Glen Brodowsky. Folks that you wouldn't think would have anything to do with this stuff all had input and all had ways to take their resources and their knowledge base out to the reservation. Or their advice to the reservation to help-Downie: And NAC is Native Advisory Council? B Biggs: Yeah. And that, that evolved. You know, so Wendy Schlater (member of the La Jolla Band of Luiseño, elected vice chairwoman of that tribe in 2019) from La Jolla rez, Henry’s rez, and I went to President Hayes and said, “We need-“ you know, there was at the time what they call Latin- Latino Faculty and Staff-G Biggs: LAFSB Biggs: LAFS. G Biggs: Latin American Faculty and Staff. B Biggs: And then they had just started an African American council. So, I thought, you know, we should--especially because we have so many tribes in the area, and it was time. And they're still meeting. I'm not going anymore. But, but it's wonderful that, that they are meeting and that, and I believe President Neufeldt (CSUSM President Ellen J. Neufeldt, appointed in 2019) is behind everything I've worked with her on having to do with the tribes. She's very-Downie: It dovetails nicely with her social mobility focus. B Biggs: Right. It does. Yeah. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 17 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Okay. So-B Biggs: Oh, another first on campus was bringing therapy dogs. Downie: Okay, well-G Biggs: It's down here. B Biggs: Oh, is it on here? (laughs) G Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) I see it right at the bottom there. B Biggs: Oh, is it really? G Biggs: Right at the bottom. Downie: But no, that's I think perfectly. That's, that's a wonderful first. Yeah. I think that's been done, you know, like in the county libraries of the public libraries, there's been the reading to dogs. So, it's not like it was completely foreign to people that dogs could be used in a very positive way. Other than just simply assistance animals. And there's nothing simple about that. But you know, the therapy dogs and the comfort or support dogs and things like that. I haven't seen a support alligator on campus yet, thankfully. Or a support snake. Any, any kind of reptile. Haven't seen those yet. But it does seem like it's being a more acceptable thing, but just the bringing them on right at finals time. (Bonnie affirms) To give students another form of release is, it's obviously quite popular. I walk out to see you and, you know, there are just students everywhere, you know, coming by, you know? Kids that didn't know about it are coming by and just, “Oh, well I gotta stop and touch a puppy.” B Biggs: And faculty and staff. And administrators-G Biggs: Presidents. Downie: Yes. We all need it. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Librarians. Yeah. Downie: Okay. So we can move on to some of your other career accomplishments beyond the firsts. You did do a sabbatical in Ghana, and wasn't that one of the first internationally, international-B Biggs: Might have been. I don't know who else had gone-Downie: --sabbaticals. I don't have a list of who's done a sabbatical when and where they went, but it doesn't seem like we had too many faculty-B Biggs: Not that many of them-Downie: --that were internationally focused the way you were on this. Transcribed by Aaron 18 Williams 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: And there was somehow money. It was obviously Komla Amoaku (Dr. W. Komla Amoaku, former Director of Visual and Performing Arts at CSUSM) who got me interested because they do have what I would call tribal libraries, or libraries formed by indigenous people in Ghana. And so, he got money through the-G Biggs: United States (overlapping dialogue) Information, USIA. B Biggs: So, so a little bit of money to help fund that. We of course got some money from the university I guess, to go, but we ended up paying your (Gunnar’s) way. G Biggs: Yeah. Thanks. B Biggs: For everything. And we stayed at a woman's home, auntie-G Biggs: Jane Korontang. B Biggs: Korontang-G Biggs: On Labadi Beach on the Gulf of Guinea. B Biggs: So Komla-Downie: I may have to ask for spelling. (laughter) B Biggs: Komla got us connected everywhere. And we had a--but it, but again, it was to go around and talk with people in libraries that again, were kind of like the tribal libraries here. Some pretty well formed, some others, very slim, I would say. But the thing about Ghana was Komla was very involved in the music world there. He was the director-G Biggs: Director. B Biggs: Of the national Symphony-G Biggs: Theater. B Biggs: Symphony or Orchestra? G Biggs: National Theater of Ghana. B Biggs: National Theater of Ghana-G Biggs: Which was an umbrella organization for all the arts-B Biggs: For all the arts-G Biggs: Music, theater, et. cetera-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 19 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: So he ended up getting this one. It was like my sabbatical. And he (Gunnar) was the star. (laughs) G Biggs: No. No. B Biggs: He had, he had you conduct the-G Biggs: Well, I, we went to hear a concert of the National Symphony of Ghana which was, it's a long story, so I won't go into it now, but it was really a treat. And the next day, Komla said, “Would you go to their rehearsal and talk to them about their performance?” So I did. And it was amazing, you know, and they had me conduct a piece during the rehearsal. But they were using some like, traditional African instruments in a symphony orchestra. That was just ridiculous. I mean, it was so good. And they--I found out that they didn't have strings for the--they didn't have a, they would break a string and they would find some way to make a string. Downie: Oh, wow. G Biggs: So when I got back, what I did is I asked all my symphony friends, I said, “If you have old sets of strings, tuners, anything that would be violin, viola, cello, or bass, give them to me. I'll get them to Ghana.” So, I sent a whole care package. They couldn't tune up. They didn't have a piano that was in tune, so I sent them tuners and things like that. But-B Biggs: And the other, there are a lot of stories, but the other thing about him is we went to a couple of jazz clubs. G Biggs: Which we didn't know existed in the first place-B Biggs: In the first place. G Biggs: --there were jazz clubs in Accra (capital of Ghana), the main-B Biggs: But we walked in and Komla introduced him (Gunnar) as this big jazz star. And he ended up showing the African musicians how to play jazz, which is some funny stuff. I mean, jazz originated in Africa. And the rhythmic foundations of jazz-G Biggs: Well, the head of USIS, United States Information Service, Nick Robertson, who lived in Ojai (California). Anyway, he was a jazz vibraphone player. He played vibes. And he had gotten together, we got some music sent over. Some musicians in Accra, to form a band, at the place called The Bassline. B Biggs: As in bass line. G Biggs: It was amazing, you know? And so I sat in and then, then he said, “We're gonna close the club tomorrow, and you're gonna do a clinic.” I said, “Okay!” (laughter) And then here, and I felt so outta place, because here I am trying to show them the idiom of American jazz, which wouldn't exist were it not for West African influences, ‘cause they had a little couple of pieces of the puzzle rearranged, kind of, and it turned-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 20 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: By the end of the night, they were-G Biggs: By the end of the night, they-B Biggs: They totally had it. G Biggs: They got it immediately. And so I got to-Downie: Well, they had the foundation. G Biggs: Yeah. So I got to sit in every-Downie: It morphed into something different-Downie: So I got to sit in a bunch and play. B Biggs: And then Komla took them out in the country and played with a whole bunch of African drummers, and Gunnar sitting there trying to do the, like the apentemma drum. And this little seven year-Downie: Well, I remember Gunnar playing in Komla’s-B Biggs: Yes, yes-Downie: Classes and things. You know, the performances that-B Biggs: That's right. Downie: What was the name of the-B Biggs: Sankofa? (Dr. Amoaku’s Artists in Residence group, which CSUSM granted a stipend to support the university mission of diversity through arts.) G Biggs: Sankofa. Downie: Sankofa. That you would do-G Biggs: Well, I knew enough to be dangerous (laughter). But when he took us to his home in Ho (Ghana), which was way up in the northern Volta region, they had these people waiting for us when we drove in, it was like midnight. And all the kids were gonna dance and drum for us. And they asked me to sit in again. So I'm playing this one part, and it's like, I remember this eight-year-old little boy going, “Yes, no, no, no, no. Yes. That's it. No, no, no.” (laughter). So I'm being totally humbled to the roots. B Biggs: By an 8-year-old. (laughter) G Biggs: But I remember everything he told me. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 21 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: Everything, yeah G Biggs: I mean, so-B Biggs: So, anyway, it was my sabbatical. But he was the superstar. G Biggs: No, I didn't get on national radio. B Biggs: I got on national radio but what, but they would not let him come in. They actually had people with guns-G Biggs: Fifty caliber gunmen placements. B Biggs: Over I guess, you know in, for national radio in a country that, I mean, there really weren't bad things going on-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Well, if there, if there's a coup, the first thing-B Biggs: They go-G Biggs: --people do is they take over the national communicate television and radio. Downie: Oh, true. Yeah. G Biggs: So they had these guys with helmets and fifty caliber machine guns. And you were, if you weren't on the list, they'd point the gun at you to keep walking. B Biggs: Gunnar was like, “I think I'll wait in the car for you.” G Biggs: I moved back to the, yeah-B Biggs: It was just a quick interview. But about-G Biggs: It was a good interview! B Biggs: --tribal. And it was a, it was nice in the interview to be able to talk about some of the similarities between the indigenous library, libraries in Ghana and the tribal libraries here in the country. So it was-G Biggs: You did that at the University of Ghana too, remember? You went in there and you talked with them? B Biggs: I think so. G Biggs: Yeah. I was in the car waiting again. (laughter) B Biggs: You were probably, yeah. Yeah. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 22 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 G Biggs: But you talked to people at the university. B Biggs: And I may have at the university of--where did we go? British Columbia (Canada), I think I talked about, had an opportunity to, one of the many you know talks was to talk about that there are indigenous libraries in Africa as well. So, it was fun. What else? But yeah, his story, I mean, he was “Mr. Superstar” there. Yeah, you were. Yep. Downie: Okay. So well, we'll move on out of Africa and come back to the states here. (laughter) Talk about anything, anything you did at the CSU level rather than campus level. Anything that you did? B Biggs: Lots of talks. I'm trying to think. I actually got involved in development at one point. Fundraising. Downie: I kind of remember that. You were doing some fundraising. B Biggs: And there was a group that was formed out of San Luis Obispo, on librarians who were involved in development. I'm trying to make, remember the name of that group? Do you remember that? G Biggs: No. What about the California State Library? Recognizing. B Biggs: Oh, yeah. I mean, but that's not the CSU. G Biggs: No, but under this career accomplishment thing. B Biggs: Yeah, well that was a big one. Was the, you know, the assessment thing. That came out of having a relationship with a woman I met through AILA (American Indian Library Association), American Indian. She went on to become the state tribal library coordinator. Susan Hanks, I don't know if you remember Susan's name. Downie: That name sounds vaguely familiar-- (overlapping dialogue) G Biggs: Which didn't exist before you. B Biggs: Yeah, she, well, yeah. G Biggs: Sorry. B Biggs: National. ALA (American Library Association). I actually went from being involved with ALA with more, much more with AILA (American Indian Library Association). I would go to ALA meetings. But it was all about, you know, going to the AILA meetings. Downie: But you were the first non-Indian president-B Biggs: President, of AILA. Yeah. And that's Lotsee’s (referring to Patterson) fault. She pushed me down that road. (laughter) Transcribed by Aaron Williams 23 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 G Biggs: And you got an award for a Librarian of the Year for-B Biggs: Yeah, it was-G Biggs: What was that award? B Biggs: I don't know. The plaque is in there. Downie: I remember typing up some of the newsletters for AILA. Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Downie: I was your support person with Arts and Lectures. B Biggs: That's right. Right. It, I think they still have the group, and I wanna think it's Librarians of Color, which I'm not that colorful. I am part Cherokee, but I don't, I don't talk about that to, what's it called? Joint Conference Librarians of Color Distinguished Service Award. Yeah. Oh, that was a, what was the one we did the talk at? In the--people from--that were the Whakatau (pronounced with a “ph” sound). G Biggs: Whakahau. B Biggs: That was their actual name. G Biggs: They were Māori. B Biggs: Māori. G Biggs: Māori. B Biggs: And, and it wasG Biggs: New Zealand. B Biggs: Yeah. Indigenous First Peoples from all over the world. And that was, that was through AILA, my part was through AILA, but it was with International Indigenous Librarians (Forum, advocacy group for indigenous peoples in library systems). Yeah. Downie: Your influence-B Biggs: This is bringing back weird memories, God. That's where they put him (Gunnar) in charge of helping. And he had like these five Indian women that were telling him what to do and how to do it. And he was like, “Whatever you say.” Downie: Whatever you want. (laughter) B Biggs: Palomar Library Association. Wow. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 24 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Because I know you were, you would've been involved early on. B Biggs: Way early on. Yeah. Yeah. You were too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Downie: Yeah, I edited the newsletter for ten years. B Biggs: Right, right. Downie: But that was also what opened my contacts to where when I first, when I finished my master's, Connie Constantino (former Library Director, United States International University) reached out to me. And I knew her through Palomar Library Association. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. So do they still exist? Downie: No. It became San Diego Region Library Association. And then a couple years later it folded. There, just, I think there were too many divergent interests going on. And again, it's kind of like students you know, when they graduate out, you know, you gotta have at least one driving force. And I think we came to a period where it just wasn't a driving force anymore. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Not sure how far and deep I was involved with-Downie: I know (overlapping dialogue) I've seen some photographs of you at events. B Biggs: At events, yeah. Downie: Because I just saw Alice Rigg (former president of the Palomar Library Association)-B Biggs: Wow. Downie: About a month ago. B Biggs: Carolyn's in touch with her. Downie: Yeah. Carolyn (Funes) got in touch with me to get in touch with Alice. And Alice is moving, downsizing and moving in with her son, and so she found a couple of old photograph binders of early-B Biggs: Wow. And she was pretty involved, right? (Downie affirms) I mean, she was, yeah. Yeah. Downie: It seemed like the public librarians were much more involved in Palomar Library Association than the academics were. I think because we probably just, we were also having-B Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) Had all these other--yeah. Downie: --to publish and research and everything else, where the public librarians, this was a way for them to see each other and be able to congregate. Cause a lot of them couldn't go to ALA and stuff like that. There just wasn't any funding for the public librarians. Transcribed by Aaron 25 2024-04 Williams �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: I hadn't thought about Connie Constantino in forever-G Biggs: Wow. B Biggs: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Downie: But yeah. Were you there when they started the scholarship? Okay. B Biggs: I don't think so. Downie: Okay, because I know they had this scholarship. B Biggs: But I remember someone getting it. Yeah. I'm trying to think who. Downie: Cause I, I haven't been able to track down the memories of how the scholarship got started. B Biggs: Does Alice know? Have you talked to her or? Downie: She wasn't feeling too terribly well that day, so-B Biggs: Okay. Downie: --no, I didn't really push her for a lot of stuff, but yeah. I may reach out to her again. So yeah, bringing up those old memories. (laughs) B Biggs: I mean, PLA (Palomar Library Association), I hadn't thought about that in forever. Well, PLA is also Public Library Association. (Downie affirms) But I mean, but the Palomar-Downie: But Palomar. B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Downie: But well, anyway, let's move on to your post-retirement work, because you certainly haven't rested on your laurels, so to speak. You've continued a lot of your initiatives and then you've also gone and done Love on a Leash (nonprofit organization providing pet therapy). But, I know that your liaison work, a lot of it was after you retired from the library. B Biggs: Right. So, Karen Haynes asked me to serve as tribal liaison. She was upset I was retiring as soon as I did. I think I was only sixty. G Biggs: You did it. You bought time. So it was early sixty. B Biggs: I bought time. So, so I was young, but I was ready. I mean, putting in twenty-two years at that, you know, place that the university was at was like putting in forty-four (laughs) in terms of-Transcribed by Aaron Williams 26 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: It was a lot of work. B Biggs: --just everything starting from scratch. So, I was ready to retire. She (Haynes) asked me if I would stay on and do, and I got to just pick my hours work from home. I was on the rez ninety percent of the time. But that's when the, the community task force was really underway. And that's when we started NAC. And I stayed on NAC until just this year. So, I retired in 2007 totally, like stopped being tribal liaison in 2007. Retired as faculty in 2004. I am still, I guess, on the California Indian Sovereignty--Culture and Sovereignty Center (CICSC; founded in 2009). I keep trying not to be, but I'm on. And so the things I continue to stay involved with, I'm trying to help this new Mejaumi (Franco-Rosales) who is replacing Tish(mall Turner) or filling some kind of tribal projects role until they find a tribal liaison. So I'm doing that. The big work now is working with Donna (Uchimura), Uncle Henry's daughter, to get Uncle Henry's archives digitized and to make sure that the family has a great deal of input and oversight. And so that one, that one's happening right now. I understand that Donna has let Joely (Proudfit) know who she wants to be on this committee. When Joely said she wanted to have a committee in this meeting with Donna, my first thought was, “You know what committee means to us.” (laughs) I thought, “Oh my gosh.” So, walking across the bridge with Donna, I said, “You know, you involve family to the extent that you want them.” And so (noise of a phone chime) she's done that. And Sean, she wants Sean (Visintainer). And she knows I'm trying to take a step back, but it's the one thing I can't not do. I just can't, for Henry's sake, I can't abandon the family until that’s done. Downie: Well, that and all parties trust you. You know, and you have such a long-established history of doing what's right and-B Biggs: Yeah, there is trust. Downie: --I don’t think everybody else see their--see the path forward. It's very important. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And I stay in touch. You know, we just visited Pala (reservation) a couple weeks ago. Walked in and there's Chairman (Robert) Smith sitting there, but these are, these are people now who are Casino rich. And you know, so it's a whole different world, but they're just still folks who remember Gunnar and I putting books on a cart and running it over from a little trailer into the new building. So, we still have a relationship with a lot of those libraries. Rincon (California), we recently went out and gave them materials on Luiseño songs. G Biggs: Do you hear Zuni? (family dog) B Biggs: Is she in her dream? G Biggs: She's chirping. (laughs) B Biggs: She's having a dream. (laughs) Downie: And you know, because I worked under you as support staff for what was supposed to be a seven-month appointment, if I remember correctly-B Biggs: Yes. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 27 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: Well it turned into four years! B Biggs: I know. Downie: But I would go home at night and I would talk to Dennis and Delaine about what was going on. And I mentioned your work with the tribal libraries. And do you remember Delaine's book project, where she gathered books from-B Biggs: Oh, yeah. Downie: --from her elementary school to donate? B Biggs: Yes. I forgot all about that. Wow. Downie: No. That she, she came up with that idea on her own and, you know-G Biggs: That's too cool. Downie: --I was so proud of her for doing that. But you know, you have inspired things to go out beyond your own efforts, which I think is really important. B Biggs: Oh, that's beautiful. Tell her thank you. (Gunnar laughs) Downie: I will. B Biggs: And can she fix my iPhone? No. (laughter) She works for Apple, right? Downie: She does. B Biggs: Check it out. Somebody you wanna know (laughter). One beautiful overlapping of that, is we have gone out twice, maybe three times, with therapy dogs to the Little Feathers School at Pala Library. So there's the library, and now there's Little Feathers School. Downie: Good. B Biggs: And I've talked a couple of really good friends into--I’ll drive, and it's a long drive--and to go out and take therapy dogs to-Downie: Oh, that’s wonderful. B Biggs: --tribal kids. Yeah. So that, I have to set it up with her again to do that. But that, so that's like both worlds coming back together again, which is-Downie: Because-B Biggs: --a beautiful-- Transcribed by Aaron Williams 28 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 Downie: You, you've mentioned this, but there is Love on a Leash, which seems to be a huge portion of your life now. I mean, you were president of the local, the local chapter, right? B Biggs: Right. And National. G Biggs: National. B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And vice president for ten years, and still very, very involved. My issue now is just organizing too many events. I'm doing What Gives Your Life Meaning? (CSUSM initiative and campaign for palliative care) in a couple weeks. And I'm having to, I've learned to say no, kind of, to this sorority, that fraternity, that you know, I just can't do--So we've narrowed it down to four big events at Cal State San Marcos. And six libraries and two-Downie: And you've got all those volunteers to organize with their dogs. B Biggs: Yeah. That's what's going on. Yeah. It's kinda-Downie: Multiple sessions. Yeah. And it's admirable that everybody wants you, but there's also, you could have dogs on campus every day. I mean, if you really-B Biggs: I would love to. Downie: --accommodated everybody who asked. B Biggs: Can't do it. Can’t do it. That was a hard one. And I'm having to step down from Cardiff Library because I have twenty minutes down there, and only had one kid to read to the dogs. So it's like they never got it off the ground, two years now. So, and that's hard. Gunnar knows, like, I don't know how to say no. (laughs) And learning to do that. But yeah, that's a, definitely a passion. And I love the university. I think that's the most important. Downie: Well, you do have your bench on the campus, it says-B Biggs: That's right. (overlapping dialogue) He (Gunnar) calls me a bench! (laughs) Downie: --"I love this university,” I believe is what it says on it. B Biggs: Yes, it does. Yeah. Downie: Right next to the one with Dannis (Mitchell, deceased library employee). B Biggs: Yes, yes. (unintelligible) Yeah. Downie: So, I usually have a closing question. Because we've kind of been through my list here, but is there anything you can think about that, you know, or a culminating statement that you would want to say about the years you've had with Cal State? And you too Gunnar? I mean, you've, you've jumped in and reminded and brought up a few things, but-- Transcribed by Aaron Williams 29 2024-04 �BIGGS, BONNIE AND GUNNAR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2024-03-26 B Biggs: I love that university, and I love what it gave me the opportunity to do in terms of the work with tribes, the work with Arts and Lectures. Owing books to, you know, I mean, I did work with patrons, but these other peripheral responsibilities are--run deep and are so meaningful to me. So I'm grateful for the opportunity. And even better to bring my dogs back. G Biggs: Yeah. B Biggs: That's just the best. (laughs) G Biggs: Well, for me, because I did take such a long time off from higher education, it is a home that I found. I got a bachelor's degree there that they let me design. It didn't exist before. I didn't know that was possible. The faculty there said, “You can do this.” I got a single subject California teaching credential there, and I actually taught there for three years as well. So, I consider it my academic home. I feel really at home out there. And I still know people that teach there, which is kind of cool. But it was very accepting to me, very flexible and of the highest quality. I mean, the, I almost said floundering. The founding faculty (laughs) came from such great places. They were really good teachers, researchers, and human beings. I was really just totally immersed in their lives and their subjects. So, it was really a nice place to finish up that part. For me. Downie: And I have to agree wholeheartedly with both of you. B Biggs: Aw. When you turn this (recording) off, I have one final story. Downie: Okay. (laughs) Alright, well I think we can end the interview at this point. So if you'll pass the phone over to me, I'll find the off button, wherever it is. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 30 2024-04 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Biggs, Bonnie and Gunnar. Interview transcript, March 26, 2024. Description An account of the resource Bonnie Biggs was the inaugural Tribal Liaison and a Librarian Emeritus at California State University San Marcos. Gunnar Biggs has been a prominent figure in the musical environment in Southern California for over forty years, and is a retired music instructor from San Diego State University and Palomar College. In this interview, Bonnie and Gunnar recall the early history of CSUSM when it transitioned as the North County satellite campus for San Diego State University into CSUSM in 1989. Bonnie also discusses her academic and professional achievements, including her work as the university's Tribal Liaison. Bonnie and Gunnar additionally recall her sabbatical to Ghana, Ghanaian jazz music and musicians, visiting and working with tribal libraries in New Mexico, and Bonnie's most recent work with Love on a Leash. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bonnie Biggs Gunnar Biggs Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-03-26 Subject The topic of the resource American Indian Library Association California Indians California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Tribal Liaison California State University San Marcos. University Library Libraries -- Ghana Jazz -- Ghana Jazz musicians -- Ghana Love on a Leash Patterson, Lotsee Rodriguez, Henry Nichols, 1919-2002 Tribal libraries -- New Mexico Tribal libraries -- Southern California Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ghana New Mexico San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Michael De Maria Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Chanel Bradley OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. RED Campaign;Social Justice Summits;Cross-Cultural Center peer mentorship OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Bradley, Chanel. Interview April 14th, 2023. SC027-35 01:12:01 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection Campus oral histories CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Civil rights Civil rights demonstrations -- California -- San Marcos RED Campaign ; Social Justice Summits ; Cross-Cultural Center peer mentorship Chanel Bradley Michael De Maria BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14.mp4 1:|11(3)|19(12)|31(6)|39(13)|49(3)|56(13)|63(2)|75(13)|88(9)|99(1)|108(5)|116(13)|129(12)|136(17)|147(10)|157(2)|167(15)|181(5)|193(7)|204(14)|217(11)|228(3)|240(7)|252(2)|262(13)|273(11)|285(3)|297(5)|308(7)|322(2)|329(14)|341(2)|352(11)|364(12)|375(10)|386(17)|397(8)|409(4)|420(6)|432(3)|440(10)|450(10)|460(5)|473(8)|485(5)|493(12)|502(3)|511(12)|521(2)|531(8)|540(5)|550(6)|563(3)|576(15)|588(2)|600(5)|611(2)|619(6)|633(2)|644(11)|654(14)|665(9)|679(11)|693(19)|704(9)|720(3)|730(8)|741(12)|750(11)|760(9)|771(11)|798(3)|800(1) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d4ea6df2420ccf154c84a6af1258992a.mp4 Other video 0 Interview Introduction Michael De Maria interviews Chanel Bradley in regards to her background and experience at California State University San Marcos. 0 24 Childhood Bradley discusses growing up in a predominately white community in Orange County and how she formed community there. 0 152 Choosing to attend CSUSM and get involved in Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) Bradley's parents wanted her close to home so she chose to attend CSUSM and live in the dorms. She originally attended the CCC due to all of its free resources but soon enjoyed the diverse community it created. Bradley soon began volunteering due to obtaining a misdemeanor but eventually applied as a peer educator at the center a few years later. Sara Sheikh ; Social Justice Summit ; multi-ethnic 0 458 First Social Justice Summit Experience/ Finding Her Voice Bradley discusses how as growing up she would often suppress her identity as a person of color to fit in. By attending the Social Justice Summit it gave her ways to express herself and to feel empowered within her identity. empowered ; Social Justice Summit 0 736 Using Her Creativity to Drive the CCC Bradley discusses how her creative nature was able to be put into practice at the CCC. She used games and slogans to help educate and encourage students to find their power. power ; impactful ; peer mentorship 0 1124 Staff Relationship/ Developing leadership skills Bradley explains how supervisors and staff at the CCC had a close connection due to cultural similarities and beliefs. She explains how when there was a change in management at the CCC, Bradley became the one that guided the new supervisor. This helped her to gain leadership skills and relationship skills as well. leadership ; leader ; relationships ; mentor ; Floyd Lai 0 1640 Creating a Welcoming Space Bradley explains how her favorite memory was being able to create an ambiance that made students feel represented and safe. welcoming ; ambiance ; atmosphere ; guidance 0 1760 Reviving Black Student Union Bradley discusses how she revived the Black Student Union after its inactivity. She explains how her experience with the CCC provided her with resources and knowledge to begin an organization. She fixed the bylaws, encouraged protests, and recruited members for the board. protests ; BSU ; organization ; Black Student Union 0 2364 The role of the Cross-Cultural Center Bradley explains how the Cross-Cultural Center aids various organizations on campus by equipping, empowering, and helping with self expression and representation. empower ; equip ; educate ; represent 0 2674 Impact of the Cross-Cultural Center/ Finding the Courage Bradley explains how the Cross-Cultural Center opened her eyes up and helped her mature politically and socially. It gave her the passion to speak up and educate others about social issues that are often suppressed. politics ; serve 0 3045 Current Direction of the Cross-Cultural Center Bradley explains how the growth of our campus should also be focused and centered on the students needs. either being socially, politically or financially focused. She talks about how professors should remain personable and bring current situations into the curriculum. activism ; identity ; allyship ; protesting 0 3387 Underrepresented Communities on Campus Bradley discusses how the undocumented experience becomes adjacent to the Chicano student movement. She recalls the Et Cetera club, a student organization that created space for those who may not identify with other organizations at that time. undocumented ; under represented ; duality ; Et Cetera club 0 3616 Lessons Learned From Cross-Cultural Center Bradley was taught that not only she had power and leadership potential but how to use it as well. She exercised her power by speaking up against a paper writing false claims towards minority groups. She also discusses how she learned to recharge as an affective leader. power ; protest ; minority ; self preserve 0 3965 How to Practice Your Voice Bradley explains how one should educate themselves, and get involved in social groups that represent them as a minority. To stand up for what one believes in and to not let a box or label define you. 0 Chanel Bradley is a California State University San Marcos alumni. She graduated with her degree in Women's and Gender Studies in 2012. Chanel worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2012 and was involved in various social identity related centers on campus. In this interview, Chanel discusses her experience as a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center and her recollections of the center during her time at CSUSM. Bradley was also involved in the Women's Center [now Gender Equity Center]. In her interview, Bradley also recalls how she revived the campus Black Student Union, protested the campus (unauthorized) student newspaper, The Koala, and came into her power. Michael De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I’m a graduate research assistant&#13 ; with Kellogg Library, I'm here today with Chanel Bradley discussing her&#13 ; involvement in the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM (California State University&#13 ; San Marcos), as well as the Black Student Union. So to kick things off, Chanel,&#13 ; I just wanted to ask about your background. I want you to talk about the&#13 ; community that you grew up in and kind of describe what that was like.&#13 ; &#13 ; Chanel Bradley: I grew up in Orange County. I was raised by a single parent, so&#13 ; I moved a lot. And like for example, in high school, I went to two different&#13 ; high schools (laughs). If you don't know about Orange County, it's like&#13 ; predominantly a white&#13 ; &#13 ; county. And we lived in a predominantly white area, so I was normally like one&#13 ; of few that looked like myself. And so I kind of quickly learned what it was&#13 ; like to be, other, and found myself kind of like congregating with other others,&#13 ; (laughs). And that sort of became my community. Typically, I would spend my time&#13 ; with like Latino and like Black students and like even at my church, like, I&#13 ; went to Saddleback until I was about sixteen. I was in the choir, and my&#13 ; grandmother was the choir director. And Saddleback is like a megachurch in&#13 ; &#13 ; Orange County. So she was kind of like a local celebrity (laughs). So like&#13 ; people would know, like, about our family or about her. And so there was a lot&#13 ; of, of colorful acquaintances. But I would say the people that I felt kind of&#13 ; most comfortable with how to share like cultural experience.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: I see. And going forward from there, what led you to attend CSU San&#13 ; Marcos and get involved with the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center)?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So I was originally gonna go to a school in Florida. And my dad, he&#13 ; didn't want me to leave the state (laughs), so it was more of a forced choice.&#13 ; And so, I applied to other&#13 ; &#13 ; colleges and universities in the state. And I think we ended up picking Cal&#13 ; State (San Marcos) because, of the distance, I think at the time he was living&#13 ; in, Rancho Santa Margarita. And so, it was very easy to kind of like go home on&#13 ; like weekends or something like that. But I actually ended up living in the&#13 ; dorms and so I didn't go home too often, but I started going to the&#13 ; Cross-Cultural Center (laughs), as most college students' motivation is free&#13 ; things (laughs). So the Cross-Cultural Center had free food. And so, my friends&#13 ; &#13 ; and I were always like trying to find the next thing that had free food. So I&#13 ; went to an event, I don't even remember what the event was called. And they had&#13 ; so many like student services, like I could print for free. You know, they had&#13 ; books that I could borrow for classes if I needed to. And, I think for me being&#13 ; multi-ethnic, like I don't really fit into a particular box. And so it was nice&#13 ; to go to a place where like, oh, I can like get like, you know, experiences from&#13 ; all walks of life. So, I think that's kind of what--why I kept coming back.&#13 ; &#13 ; And then I&#13 ; &#13 ; served on the committee. What did I do? (whispers) It's, it's, it's like what,&#13 ; almost 20 years (laughs) ago, so I have to kind of like think about it. But, I&#13 ; remember either like going to the Cross-Cultural Center director (laughs). I, I&#13 ; was a very adventurous college student, so I got into some trouble. I ended up&#13 ; (laughs) being convicted of a misdemeanor and my last semester of my freshman&#13 ; year, I couldn't finish my exams because I was waiting for trial. So,&#13 ; &#13 ; I think what had happened was I ended up volunteering so that I could gain work&#13 ; experience after that incident that I had. And so, I believe Sara Sheikh had&#13 ; suggested that I assist her with the Social Justice Summit. And so I created&#13 ; some of the marketing material for it. And then, I believe, maybe a year or so&#13 ; after that, I ended up participating on the committee again. And I believe that&#13 ; same year,&#13 ; &#13 ; might have been the same year or maybe, you know, few years after I applied to&#13 ; be a peer educator for the center. So that was kind of like the beginnings of&#13 ; involvement (laughs) with the Cross-Cultural Center.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Got it. So, it sounds like the CCC just provided a positive space for&#13 ; you to inhabit and kind of rebuild some elements of your life after that&#13 ; incident. Which I think is super, super cool. Regarding the projects that you&#13 ; worked on, I'd love to hear more about the Social Justice Summit, since you were&#13 ; involved in the very first one (Bradley laughs). So, if you could just take me&#13 ; through your experience with that, and just, you know, what, what it was like,&#13 ; what was discussed, and just giving me an image of what all occurred.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So, I think I remember what happened. I ended up, attending the first&#13 ; Social Justice Summit, as a participant. And I, (laughs) yeah, that's what&#13 ; happened. I remember. Okay. (laughs) I feel like as I'm talking, I'm remembering&#13 ; the timeline. So (laughs), pardon me if I'm like having to go back into the, the&#13 ; files of my brain.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: No, that's, that's good (both Laugh).&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Yeah, so I, I was a participant. I attended the retreat with my&#13 ; boyfriend at the time. And--I would say I've always been like a fairly&#13 ; consciously aware person like, you know, growing up in a predominantly white&#13 ; area, and like knowing that I was not white,&#13 ; &#13 ; was something that I knew. But I think as you--or at least as I grew up, you&#13 ; kind of learn how to adapt in those environments. And so, things that are&#13 ; probably like triggering or, you know, maybe the, not the most like PC thing to&#13 ; say, I would kind of say to fit in or whatever I was doing at the time. So when&#13 ; I went to the Social Justice Summit, it was really eye-opening ’cause they were&#13 ; talking about, like, individual identity. They were talking about oppression and&#13 ; marginalization, which again, like I knew, but I didn't know that it existed, in&#13 ; like different intersects.&#13 ; &#13 ; And--they&#13 ; &#13 ; also talked about like allyship. So I met a lot of people there that I still&#13 ; talk to today. Yeah, that's, that's how I started. And then I think after that,&#13 ; that's when I was on the committee, the planning committee. And I did the&#13 ; marketing and I pretty much just kept continuing to participate with the Social&#13 ; Justice Summit because it was very impactful for me. I think it helped build my&#13 ; activism, if you will. It gave me...language to talk about my experiences. It&#13 ; gave me like, curriculum to teach other people about how to start their journey&#13 ; or like continue their journey&#13 ; &#13 ; or, you know, come back from taking a rest (laughs) if you will. It exposed me&#13 ; to like a lot of things that were happening on campus, that were unjust. And I,&#13 ; because I had those experiences I felt empowered enough to not just let them&#13 ; happen, but to like speak about them. I developed like lifelong mentors from&#13 ; that summit. I think, if I'm not mistaken, I probably went to like three or four&#13 ; of them. The first one being a participant and the others I was on the&#13 ; committee. And then the, the last one, I ended up--I was a co-facilitator,&#13 ; &#13 ; so.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Got it. Very, very cool. And I previously interviewed Sara Sheikh, so&#13 ; she was able to also walk me through, a bit of that experience, but that's&#13 ; awesome hearing your perspective. And then regarding some of the projects that&#13 ; you did for the CCC, you've previously been described by your peers as someone&#13 ; who always got incredible results, but thought outside the box and didn't&#13 ; necessarily play by the rules to achieve those results. So I was just curious in&#13 ; your own words if you had an instance of a project or an objective you achieved&#13 ; where you didn't necessarily play by the rules.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: That's funny. (laughs) I've always been like a really creative person.&#13 ; &#13 ; So--I... I like to see kind of like, what is the baseline? And I'm like, “okay,&#13 ; what, what more can we do from here?” So, we had an event called Cafe La Paz,&#13 ; and it was essentially a way to talk about, different cultural backgrounds and&#13 ; experiences, in an interactive way. And then I believe we served food (laughs).&#13 ; I think all our events we serve food, that's how you get students (laughs), make&#13 ; sure you get a Costco pizza and, and all the desserts and then you will have students.&#13 ; &#13 ; But yeah, so we had to work with, or we were tasked to work with the other&#13 ; centers, so the Women's Center (now Gender Equity Center) and the LGBT Pride&#13 ; Center, LGBTQIA, Pride Center (laughs).&#13 ; &#13 ; And so, I don't remember like the actual identities that we had to talk about,&#13 ; but it was like two or three of them, and we had to find a way to kind of put&#13 ; them together. And, I like to do things where people aren't just like listening&#13 ; to a lecture or watching a movie. I feel like it's, like it works if it's like&#13 ; twenty minutes or something that's short. Like when you get people to move and&#13 ; talk and engage with each other, I feel like that's&#13 ; &#13 ; more impactful to their learning process. So I honestly don't remember the game&#13 ; or what it's called. Oh, yes, I do (laughs). So, it's a game, called mafia and,&#13 ; it basically simulates this like inner and outer group and then, like people who&#13 ; reinforce the system and then, people who are trying to change the system.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so, I found a way to talk about experiences in the community or in&#13 ; classrooms and then incorporate this game that I played with other college&#13 ; students. So, I guess that's a way of being creative and thinking outside the&#13 ; box. I&#13 ; &#13 ; know I definitely broke some rules as far as my attendance goes. (Be)cause my,&#13 ; my, punctuality then was not (laughs) not very good. So I guess that would&#13 ; probably be some ways that I, you know, was a little bit rebellious. But I would&#13 ; say for the most part it was just really my creativity that drove me to, think&#13 ; of things that weren't being done. So like, another example is like when we, I&#13 ; think this might have been--when was this? This might have been like the second&#13 ; or third social justice event that I was on the committee with.&#13 ; &#13 ; And we were like, thinking of names to title it, or what have you. And&#13 ; &#13 ; I'm very simple. Like I don't--I'm not really someone that wants like a word&#13 ; vomit of a title, like make it impactful, how can we say this in the fewest&#13 ; words possible? So I like, took--then they had the RED campaign (division of The&#13 ; ONE Campaign to end extreme poverty and preventable disease by 2030). I don't&#13 ; know if you remember that.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Um-hm&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley:It was a RED campaign for Apple or like, for HIV awareness, or something&#13 ; like that. And so in that campaign, they put brackets over the R and the E. So I&#13 ; found a way to like use the word power and then I put brackets around the word,&#13 ; the words W-E So it looks like, like we are the power that we, that we want to,&#13 ; like we have the power,&#13 ; &#13 ; we the people have the power essentially. And so I remember making it, and it&#13 ; was like, the most simple one that I had ever done in all of the designs that I&#13 ; had created. And I believe that same year the registration, like was full by&#13 ; like the end of the day or like the next day. So that was really cool to kind of&#13 ; see how something so simple can intrigue people enough to want to join something&#13 ; that they probably wouldn't normally going to.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Absolutely. And it's super cool to hear about your art making such a&#13 ; tangible impact as well. Regarding the operation of the CCC again, through my&#13 ; research I've heard several people kind of cite the students as sort of like the&#13 ; lifeblood of the organization. The people who&#13 ; &#13 ; affected change and essentially help those projects get off the ground. So I was&#13 ; just interested in hearing about what your relationships were like with other&#13 ; student staff as well as your superiors?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So my first two years, ’cause I think I was there for three years, it’s&#13 ; been three years, oh my gosh (laughs). My first couple of years. The person, did&#13 ; he, I think he, I think he was the one that referred for me to apply, or it was&#13 ; Sara (Sheikh). I don't exactly remember. But I have a friend who's like,&#13 ; essentially someone who I've been friends with since then, but his name is&#13 ; Gerardo Cabral or he goes by G now. But G, I met him at&#13 ; &#13 ; that event that I said where I got the free pizza for the first time. I honestly&#13 ; didn't know that it was his event. He tells me later that it was, and I was&#13 ; like, he's like, “Yeah, I remember you coming in.” And (laughs) I don't even&#13 ; remember what I was saying, but I was like, extra, as the word that people would&#13 ; use then.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so when I started working with him, him and I started to develop a closer&#13 ; relationship outside of work. He, I think at the time, like either my car wasn't&#13 ; working or like I had to walk to campus, and I was living off of campus, so he&#13 ; would pick me up like every day. ’cause I was, I wasn't too far from campus, but&#13 ; it was far enough where, like you didn't want to walk, because as everybody&#13 ; knows, Cal State San Marcos sits on a hill. So (laughs)&#13 ; &#13 ; if you're walking from off campus, and it's already far enough, like you got&#13 ; (to) trek up, a mountainside to get there. And so--and this was before the&#13 ; (University) Student Union, because there were like ways that you can get up&#13 ; without using stairs that I figured out, but the easiest way is to take stairs.&#13 ; &#13 ; But yeah, so became like really close to Gerardo and, I, I, I believe because of&#13 ; like the experience that I had with like the incident that I had my freshman&#13 ; year I really connected with Sara. She like has a very therapeutic presence. And&#13 ; as someone who like experienced trauma young and (laughs) very, very colorful&#13 ; past it was&#13 ; &#13 ; comforting to have a supervisor that didn't really feel like a supervisor. Like&#13 ; she, you know, obviously was my supervisor, but it just felt different. I've&#13 ; never had a supervisor where I connected in that way. So when she left, it, it&#13 ; was a really big hole, like for the whole center because everyone loved her. I&#13 ; mean, they still love her, like I still love her. But like me and G especially&#13 ; were like basically mourning (laughs) her transition.&#13 ; &#13 ; And I think that experience also brought us closer. I was in his wedding, like&#13 ; he's came to all of my graduations, I've gone to his. So we still talk to this&#13 ; day. And my experience with Floyd (Lai, the next director of the Cross-Cultural&#13 ; Center), because I was so connected with&#13 ; &#13 ; Sara, was definitely rocky at first. I was so used to like a certain way, that&#13 ; things were, and then when Floyd came, he didn't necessarily disrupt everything&#13 ; and like change everything. We kind of kept most things, if not all. But I&#13 ; definitely was a little bit taken aback by having to deal with like, a, a power&#13 ; shift, if you will. But Floyd has always been super supportive. And at the time&#13 ; I was also involved in InterVarsity, InterVarsity is a Christian student group&#13 ; on campus.&#13 ; &#13 ; I don't know if they're still there, but I had a mentor there who was telling&#13 ; me, he was like, “You have to be a leader.” Like a 360 leader. Sometimes you&#13 ; have to&#13 ; &#13 ; lead the people that you are, that are supposed to lead you. Not to say that&#13 ; Floyd didn't lead me, it was just like, because he was a new person, he kind of&#13 ; came to me with like, “Okay, what information do you have? What knowledge do you&#13 ; have? Do you have background information about this event or that?” And so I&#13 ; kind of felt like I was in a way his little guide. And so that was new for me.&#13 ; I'd never been in a position where people are looking at me for answers. So I&#13 ; think it helped me develop my leadership skills as a result.&#13 ; &#13 ; And also be able to reconcile relationships too. So, some of the other&#13 ; &#13 ; like staff that I work with, I still touch base with every once in a while,&#13 ; but--like when was it? Was it the 25th anniversary? I don't remember. But there&#13 ; (laughs), there was a, what was it, third year? I don't remember. But I went to&#13 ; an event and I came back to campus after graduating and I ran into Allie Moreno,&#13 ; I think she has a different last name now, but Allie Moreno I also worked with.&#13 ; And she was there at the event, so I got to reconnect with her. Same thing with&#13 ; Diana (Salidvar).&#13 ; &#13 ; I'm bad with names, so I apologize. Diana, I believe, is her name. I still like&#13 ; connect with her through social media, so I--it's, it's like, a&#13 ; &#13 ; very unique time in your life when you're like, “I'm an adult,” but also like,&#13 ; you're still learning. You're still learning how to be an adult, you're still&#13 ; learning how to function in the world. You have to take care of yourself. Like,&#13 ; I had to, you know, get a job and I couldn't really rely on my parents to help&#13 ; me out of situations (laughs) if you will. So I had to learn how to be&#13 ; resourceful. And I think the Cross-Cultural Center gave me the resources among&#13 ; other, you know services that I used on campus to survive and thrive there.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. One comment on that, I will second Sara Sheikh's,&#13 ; therapeutic nature (both laugh). She's, she's definitely an incredible person.&#13 ; And, yeah, it&#13 ; &#13 ; definitely sounds like when you were able to kind of inhabit that role as sort&#13 ; of like a guide for the others in the center, it sounds like you kind of reached&#13 ; a point of pride and were able to kind of reflect in your accomplishments and&#13 ; just some of the things that you had done. Which I also think is super cool. Now&#13 ; that I've kind of jogged your memory a little bit from those experiences, I want&#13 ; to know what your favorite memory of the Cross-Cultural Center is.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: (laughs) It's very simple. Like I--the, the one thing that my dad&#13 ; taught me was that you can change an atmosphere just by stepping into the room.&#13 ; And so I would be very big on atmosphere, or ambiance if you will. My friends&#13 ; and I call it am-Beyonce&#13 ; &#13 ; (laughs), like, because Beyonce has that, that energy and aura to her too. And&#13 ; so what I would do when I would be working my shift is I would play music that I&#13 ; enjoyed, and then I would ask students like, “What do you wanna listen to?” So I&#13 ; would kind of like be a DJ, like a little bit (laughs). So I enjoyed just&#13 ; creating a welcoming space for them to come in. And I've had students--and in a&#13 ; way I sort of became like a therapist come to me like stressed out about&#13 ; something and they are looking for advice or guidance, or just like helping&#13 ; individuals who are coming in trying to figure out like, “Oh, what's this&#13 ; place?” (laughs) You know? So I think that was probably my favorite part of&#13 ; working at the Cult--Cross-Cultural Center, was just&#13 ; &#13 ; creating that space for students.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Very cool. I definitely understand that impact of ambiance, so it's&#13 ; definitely nice that you were able to be a little selfless in a way and kind of&#13 ; provide that, that atmosphere like you mentioned. And shifting gears here, I&#13 ; know that you had a heavy involvement in the Black Student Union on campus as&#13 ; well. You're cited as being an individual who essentially revived that&#13 ; organization or had a very big hand in reviving it from inactivity. So just&#13 ; starting there, I want to know what that timeline looked like and how you got&#13 ; involved in that project as well.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So I was in BSU (Black Student Union) my freshman year, and it was&#13 ; pretty active&#13 ; &#13 ; then. We had a good amount of members. They--I would say maybe a majority of&#13 ; them were like upperclassmen. And so, I think I also served on the board my&#13 ; second year and that's when the president Charey or Trey stepped down and then&#13 ; Raja stepped up. He had a lot of great ideas and he is a really good leader. I&#13 ; think it's just really hard when you're--like imagine having to be the next&#13 ; head, like performance after like Patti LaBelle (laughs). You're like “How do I top&#13 ; &#13 ; that (laughs)?” So I think it was some of that that happened with Raja, but he&#13 ; did a really good job at getting a lot of the structural things that&#13 ; organizations need.&#13 ; &#13 ; Like they need bylaws. They need to define their roles. They need recruitment&#13 ; efforts. They need to have like good soil to be able to grow. After Raja&#13 ; graduated, because he was also upper class, I think he ended up graduating&#13 ; before myself, maybe a couple years before me. So a lot of those upperclassmen&#13 ; that made up a lot of the BSU moved on. And so it was just like the&#13 ; underclassmen that kind of had to step up. I think there were like, if I'm not&#13 ; mistaken, a&#13 ; &#13 ; couple of attempts where students tried to revive it and then it just became&#13 ; inactive. I don't know how long the inactive period was, but I think during that&#13 ; time I was doing a lot of on-campus like protests. I was doing a lot of things&#13 ; with the Cross-Cultural Center.&#13 ; &#13 ; I was leading Bible studies. I was, also going to school, working, like I was&#13 ; doing a lot. And I think it was my Women's Studies professor, I think at the end&#13 ; of my like sophomore year and she was like, “What are you gonna do about BSU?”&#13 ; I'm like, “What do you mean (laughs)? Like, it's not my job (laughs).” And I&#13 ; think another Women's Studies professor was like, “You should try to&#13 ; &#13 ; get that organization going again.” And I was like, “Okay” (laughs). I work with&#13 ; a lot of student organizations when I was a peer educator. So I'm like, okay, I&#13 ; see how they do things. I know all the background information. I know who to&#13 ; talk to at, Student Life and Leadership so that I can try to expedite things if&#13 ; I need to.&#13 ; &#13 ; I know where to go with ASI (Associated Student Inc.) like being a student&#13 ; worker really exposes you to a lot of like the administrative side of a&#13 ; university. So I got to be able to experience that. So when I stepped into that&#13 ; role, I already had all those resources. And I knew a lot of students, so they&#13 ; knew who I was. And so when I started, I had enough&#13 ; &#13 ; members to make the organization active, which I believe is three. You need a&#13 ; secretary, a vice (president) and a president. We talked extensively during the&#13 ; summer about like, who's going to take up what role, and what are we gonna do&#13 ; and how are we gonna do things? And kind of, things like that. I originally, I&#13 ; believe was just gonna be a vice president, another student wanted to be president.&#13 ; &#13 ; And I'm like, I have no ties to any role. My only objective is to make this&#13 ; organization active again. And I think it was the week or two before classes&#13 ; started, both of them dropped out. And I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna&#13 ; do, but I'll figure this out because I'm resourceful. So,&#13 ; &#13 ; I just started reaching out to every student that I knew. I'm like, you remember&#13 ; when BSU was like, and all this stuff? And just trying to--and even new&#13 ; students, I was like, “You look like a leader!” I was just heavy, heavy with my&#13 ; recruitment until I finally got two people to be in the role of vice president&#13 ; and treasurer. And then I was able to go to Josh at the time who was like&#13 ; overseeing student organizations. (laughs).&#13 ; &#13 ; I'm like, okay, “I have all the paperwork (laughs), like can we be active now?”&#13 ; And then it was definitely really rocky. It was, it was really rocky, because at&#13 ; the time I was like, I'm just trying to get us back into a place where we&#13 ; &#13 ; have presence on campus cause we're here, like Black students are here, they're&#13 ; just not collectively coming here. And so I also, at the same time, I'm&#13 ; honestly, I don't know how I did all these things, but at the same time (laughs)&#13 ; while I was in, in InterVarsity, they have like a Black student body as well&#13 ; within that, that organization. And so I was working with Black Student Unions&#13 ; at other campuses. I was like, let me see how you all do this because your group&#13 ; is so big. And then I'm like, okay, well instead of trying to motivate these&#13 ; students who are like, I don't want to go (laughs), I'm gonna work with these&#13 ; students who already have the--already energized about meeting together about,&#13 ; you know, centering Black narrative and who want&#13 ; &#13 ; to move that forward.&#13 ; &#13 ; So we attempted to do like events together. So, I feel like a lot of people get&#13 ; F.O.M.O (Fear Of Missing Out), so I'm like, if I make the event cool enough and&#13 ; bring enough people, they're gonna want to come. And so I did a lot of that, and&#13 ; I designed the logo. I fixed the bylaws and I worked a lot with other students&#13 ; because I was like, I think this was like my, ‘cause this was my senior year, I&#13 ; had to do all of this my senior year, graduate, you know, look for a job, all&#13 ; those things. And so I kind of searched for the next presidents. I was like,&#13 ; “Hey, you have the potential. Come with me to this event, I think you would&#13 ; benefit from it.” And&#13 ; &#13 ; I invested time in their development, like, not to pressure you, but I am&#13 ; leaving (laughs) so, it would be great if someone could step into these roles.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so I remember my last year and no one really what was stepping up and I was&#13 ; like, I just have to leave it and hope that it works out. So I went to my&#13 ; mentor, Roger, who at the time was the director of the LGBT Center and I was&#13 ; like, “Can you do me a favor?” (laughs) Can you, because he's an agitator, he,&#13 ; he will make sure like something gets done. So I was like, “Can you please make&#13 ; sure that someone steps up? Cause I'm, I'm graduating, like I can't do any more&#13 ; past this.” So yeah, that was,&#13 ; &#13 ; that was a lot (laughs).&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah. It definitely sounds like you, kind of once again used out of&#13 ; the box style thinking to try and ensure the future of the organization and the&#13 ; health of the organization, which is definitely, definitely needed (laughs) in&#13 ; situations like that. Regarding the relationship between those organizations and&#13 ; just in general on our campus, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center&#13 ; playing as it coexists with these different organizations devoted to identity&#13 ; expression? Like, what kind of role do you think it inhabits and still inhabits?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So, I&#13 ; &#13 ; don't remember the name of it, but my friend G was trying to start like a&#13 ; council for all like, multicultural student organizations to meet--to board&#13 ; leaders to meet together and be able to have a space to discuss issues or&#13 ; concerns or what have you together like a, quasi-United Nations (laughs), if you&#13 ; will. So I think that was the first time I kind of saw the way that the&#13 ; Cross-Cultural (Center) can collaborate, and empower, and equip student&#13 ; organizations to not only self-express, but also to address matters&#13 ; &#13 ; that are important for them. Or how to just really have representation. Because&#13 ; I think that was really important. Like, for me, coming from a place where there&#13 ; wasn't that growing up, like I remember (laughs), I remember going to the Career&#13 ; Center on campus and there was this--stand and repeat, and it had a Black&#13 ; student on it.&#13 ; &#13 ; And then I don't remember what the language was underneath it, but it basically&#13 ; implied as what I had interpreted of it, was that like, Black students aren't&#13 ; gonna get employed, something like that. And I was like,&#13 ; &#13 ; “You have to change that.” (laughs) That's not gonna work. Like, that's not&#13 ; gonna bring Black students in here. You need to show them, themselves in the&#13 ; careers that they want, because they're out there. There are successful people&#13 ; of color. And so--I mean, same thing with like posters around campus. I'm like,&#13 ; “Who made that? There's not enough people that look diverse enough for that to&#13 ; be representing our campus.” So yeah I think it, it, it equips and empowers, not&#13 ; only like the board members on those--because like we had free printing. The&#13 ; Student Life and Leadership Center had a place where you could make a-frames,&#13 ; like you could make the&#13 ; &#13 ; materials that you need.&#13 ; &#13 ; Like you didn't have to do everything out of pocket. And especially for&#13 ; marginalized, you know minority groups. Sometimes money is not something that&#13 ; you have to just make materials for. I remember (laughs) the biggest thing for&#13 ; like, I feel like students tend to get behind is like, “Do I get a T-shirt&#13 ; (laughs)?” If you have swag for them, they're like, “Yeah, I'll definitely show&#13 ; up.” So I was like, we need to get T-shirts for Black Student Union. And because&#13 ; I was a student, because I worked, or you know, worked at the Cross-Cultural&#13 ; Center and I knew the resources they had available, I was like, “I know what&#13 ; website to make it on. I can order them. I can have them, have it done. I know&#13 ; where to go to get scholarships for our&#13 ; &#13 ; group.” So I think, that is what's really like, special about that relationship&#13 ; with, you know, centers who work with student organizations.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah, totally. That's super cool. I heard on swag, that is definitely&#13 ; a great way to get, to get people in through the door and get your message&#13 ; heard, funnily enough. My next set of questions and the, the questions that&#13 ; we'll kind of wrap up on are a little bit more abstract. So I just wanted to ask&#13 ; you how your experiences with Cross-Cultural Center, as well as Black Student&#13 ; Union on that note, impacted your professional path and what you currently do?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: So I'm, I'm sort&#13 ; &#13 ; of in a career transition space, so I wouldn't necessarily say that those&#13 ; experiences impacted my profession. I would say they impacted me personally and&#13 ; my politics. I think it opened my eyes to a lot of different things,&#13 ; organizations, what people are doing in the community and it motivated me to&#13 ; serve the community in a different way. Right after college, I ended up going on&#13 ; a missions trip in Fresno, and seeing poverty in a different way. And I also&#13 ; worked with Inner City Youth in Escondido as well as here in&#13 ; &#13 ; Central San Diego. So I think it definitely shaped my passion for development.&#13 ; And I guess in some ways I still sort of do that in my role now. But my job I&#13 ; would say is, more like financially driven decisions versus passions and what&#13 ; sort of shaped me there.&#13 ; &#13 ; But after--I believe it, after (George) Floyd was murdered? I think it was&#13 ; during the pandemic like, 2020, when that whole bit happened. I mean I was going&#13 ; to protests before&#13 ; &#13 ; then. Like I went to the Women's March, I went to some other protests as well. I&#13 ; even brought some of my students (laughs). I was like, “This is what a protest&#13 ; is.” And so when that happened in the pandemic, it just, it's hard because it's&#13 ; like wrapped around tragedy, you know, these things that are so unjust that it,&#13 ; (laughs) I was telling my therapist that I have like an--eloquent rage. Like I&#13 ; want (laughs) to do things in a certain way that will affect change in the&#13 ; system that's already existing. Sometimes I do want to be very radical, but also&#13 ; I just don't want like Black people to keep dying, you know?&#13 ; &#13 ; And so I actually ended up kind of getting my boyfriend at the time into that&#13 ; too. I think he had always been like into it, but the way that he would protest&#13 ; is virtually. And I'm like, come see what it's like grassroots. Because It's a&#13 ; different feeling. And so we went in our cars, and we went up to like La Jolla&#13 ; and came back to central San Diego and then went all the way down to National&#13 ; City as a protest. And there was like hundreds of cars, it was all over the&#13 ; news. We had made posters. It was like a huge thing. And I feel like, that&#13 ; moment kind of reminded me of when I was at the Social Justice Summits and&#13 ; watching someone's&#13 ; &#13 ; lightbulb turn on almost like, oh wow, like this is what it, what it's like, l&#13 ; being in solidarity with other, with others and wanting the change that we need.&#13 ; &#13 ; We don't want individuals to be brutalized and murdered by individuals that we&#13 ; thought we could trust to keep us safe, you know? And so I get, I get chills&#13 ; thinking about it. I remember there was one student, he was like, “How can you&#13 ; just get up there and like, speak on the mic and not be afraid?” And I'm like,&#13 ; “I am afraid!” I'm very afraid, but I also don't want this to happen anymore.&#13 ; It's not okay. And so I would rather&#13 ; &#13 ; be afraid and find the courage to get through it, than be afraid and do nothing.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Absolutely. And I'm sorry, it's just super profound (laughs) super&#13 ; profound things that you're talking about. And also just so much value in being&#13 ; able to relate those experiences back together. And also, again, tangibly seeing&#13 ; results from, your own efforts make--be them personal or professional. So very,&#13 ; very cool. Just a few more questions left. What direction do you think the&#13 ; Cross-Cultural Center should grow in?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: I visit like maybe every, two or three years (both laughs). So I don't&#13 ; know what the last three years have been because I, the la--I think the last&#13 ; time I went to campus was like maybe (20)17 or (20)18. So it's been a while&#13 ; since I've been there. And it's a different, it's a different vibe than how it&#13 ; was when I was there. We were like a smaller center, you know, we didn't have&#13 ; this beautiful (University) Student Union. We had the Commons, and if anyone&#13 ; knows what the Commons are, there were these small little rooms, (laughs) that&#13 ; we just made work, you know? And they would be filled with students. And so I&#13 ; remember seeing the blueprints of this&#13 ; &#13 ; Student Union. And for me, I'm just like, “This is awesome!” I feel like I was,&#13 ; you know, part of the building blocks of this, and I'm just honestly proud of&#13 ; how things have evolved.&#13 ; &#13 ; I will say (laughs) the, this is maybe not necessarily like the Cross-Cultural&#13 ; Center, but I've heard that the parking permits there are ridiculous. Like, for&#13 ; passes, like I go, I, I got my master's at University of San Diego, their annual&#13 ; passes are under a hundred dollars. And so to have a parking pass that's $600 or&#13 ; something like that, I was like, that's wild. If I was there, I'd be protesting&#13 ; about it. This is ridiculous. Like, what are you, let me see your (laughs), let&#13 ; me see your expenditure sheets, let me see your multi-year budget plans, because&#13 ; this doesn't make&#13 ; &#13 ; sense, like it should not be that expensive. I really don't know what the&#13 ; student activism looks like. You know, I know that when I was there that a lot&#13 ; of people kind of saw the Cross-Cultural Center as like a Pan-Asian space,&#13 ; because that's kind of a lot of the students that would come to that space.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so when I was there, I was like, I want to see everybody (laughs). I want to&#13 ; go and like find where you guys are and let you know, this is here, like MEChA&#13 ; (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan) come over, you know, Black students&#13 ; come over. I'd be like, “Okay, what movie do you want to see? (laughs) I'm about&#13 ; to put it on the TV. You know, like make you feel comfortable. So yeah, I think&#13 ; that's kind of something that was needed then. I don't know what it's like now.&#13 ; I know when I kind of like popped in it's--there was mostly Asian students there,&#13 ; &#13 ; but you know, I think as long as students are using the space, I think that's&#13 ; what matters most. That's what it's there for. I think it's great that you know,&#13 ; peer educators can, I don't know if they're doing this now, but when I was&#13 ; there, I would go into classrooms and I would teach curriculum to students about&#13 ; identity and allyship.&#13 ; &#13 ; So I hope that they're still doing stuff like that because there are situations&#13 ; where I--where it impacts the world, it impacts, you know, that, that macrocosm.&#13 ; And in turn we, you know, sometimes professors don't know what to say and some&#13 ; of those students might be having a hard time being present, learning about, I&#13 ; don't know,&#13 ; &#13 ; whatever subject, like microorganisms, (laughs), you know what I mean? And so&#13 ; how can you as a professor tie in like what's going on in the world to address&#13 ; it, but also like be there for the students in a way that, you know, maybe is&#13 ; not necessarily like a savior complex, but in a way that's supportive. Like “I&#13 ; see you, I see that, you know, this could be something that, you may or may not&#13 ; be noticing in life or affected by, but there's this place where you can go,” or&#13 ; like bringing in those students to those classrooms. And nothing against the&#13 ; hard sciences. We love math, we love science. But you know, sometimes those&#13 ; spaces are very black and white and the Cross-Cultural Center lives in a gray&#13 ; space. And so to be able to show students that and help them with identity&#13 ; development, because like I said,&#13 ; &#13 ; college is such a unique time. You’re a quasi-adult, but not really. And you&#13 ; have to take on all these responsibilities in addition to graduating. So.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah. Absolutely. My next question, and again this is going to kind of&#13 ; reference the current landscape of CSUSM. So don't worry if you can't think of&#13 ; like a super accurate answer or anything. You can also comment about the time,&#13 ; like around the time that you graduated and moved on. But what communities do&#13 ; you feel are underrepresented on campus?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Hmm...&#13 ; &#13 ; I don't really know. I know like when I was a student... so, I know I, I&#13 ; definitely got involved with like undocumented students ’cause that experience&#13 ; was something that I personally didn't have like experience in. But I had a&#13 ; friend, several friends, who were undocumented. And I remember going to Social&#13 ; Justice Summit and having that lightbulb. And we were talking about undocumented&#13 ; students and I was like, “Oh my God.” Like I drove one of my friends who I know&#13 ; is undocumented and I didn't have&#13 ; &#13 ; like (laughs), this is again, me living rebelliously. I was driving, and my&#13 ; license plate was expired or something like that? And I was like, “Oh my gosh.”&#13 ; If I had gotten pulled over and this police officer wasn't chill, I could have&#13 ; endangered my friend. And so, I think it grew my like empathy for that community.&#13 ; &#13 ; I remember their group was like, sort of active, sort of not, at the time when I&#13 ; was a student. I think MEChA--&#13 ; &#13 ; DeMaria: Um-hmm.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Is such a big organization like nationally that sometimes the&#13 ; undocumented experience kind of becomes adjacent to that. So one of the friends&#13 ; that I&#13 ; &#13 ; was referring to, I believe she served in a leadership role for, I don't&#13 ; remember what the name of that undocumented student organization was, but I&#13 ; remember her talking about that and kind of trying to differentiate that group&#13 ; as a result. I also have another friend that I still talk to today. She created&#13 ; an organization called Et Cetera. And her whole goal was to be a catchall for&#13 ; the others. Like you're not really feeling like a certain cultural identity.&#13 ; Like maybe you don't want to be in the math group, like maybe you don't want to&#13 ; be in a fraternity, like come to Et Cetera (laughs). And so I thought that that&#13 ; was really cool that she wanted to create a space for individuals who either&#13 ; like myself live in like a duality, or others who just&#13 ; &#13 ; maybe don't identify in a particular space.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Totally. I have two questions left to just wrap things up. So first&#13 ; one, what is the most important lesson you've taken from your experience with&#13 ; the Cross-Cultural Center?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: There were so many lessons (both laughs). Definitely difficult to pick&#13 ; one. I think I, I, I learned my power. And at that time I learned a, that I had&#13 ; power and leadership potential, but also that how to use it, in a way&#13 ; &#13 ; that would affect change. Like I remember when--I hope that this tabloid paper&#13 ; doesn't exist on that campus anymore. Because If it does, I'm driving (laughs)&#13 ; to make sure it's not there. But--they, it was called The Koala. The Koala also&#13 ; existed on I think UCSD (University of California San Diego), but basically it&#13 ; was a tabloid paper, and they would just write, just excuse my language, but&#13 ; like, bullshit about people, about groups, about minority groups. And they're&#13 ; like, “Oh, but it's satire.” And I'm like, “This still doesn't make it okay.” I&#13 ; was such an agitator to them that they put me in one of their editions.&#13 ; &#13 ; And so I remember noticing that this was not&#13 ; &#13 ; okay, you know, me stepping into my power and then I protested by myself. I was&#13 ; like, I'm gonna stand next to you. I'm not gonna say anything, but I'm gonna&#13 ; hold this sign up, and I'm gonna stand next to you, so that other people&#13 ; understand that this is not okay and that you shouldn't be passing this out on&#13 ; campus. And like my friends were like coming up to me and they're like, “Oh my&#13 ; gosh, like you are so awesome for doing this." And I connected with other&#13 ; campuses and I'm like, “What are you guys doing about this (laughs) paper?”&#13 ; Because you know, such and such. And then I remember other people kind of in&#13 ; solidarity doing other things to expose the students and who are doing these&#13 ; salacious things, like who the editor was (laughs). They wrote it on the steps,&#13 ; like the steps that are next to the clock.&#13 ; &#13 ; They wrote the names of all the members in the organization.&#13 ; &#13 ; This person is in it and this person is in it and they want to hide, but&#13 ; (laughs), they're not gonna hide. We're gonna bring them to light. They actually&#13 ; bit their--put their own shoe in their mouth. But I think the editor attempted&#13 ; to run for ASI president.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria:&#13 ; &#13 ; Right?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: And if he had accomplished his goal, that paper would've been basically&#13 ; passed out, like how the Cougar News (student newspaper) gets passed out. But he&#13 ; ended up (laughs) fraud, like basically doing identity theft and faking votes so&#13 ; that he could win. So I was like, “Well, not only did you lose, but you also are gonna&#13 ; &#13 ; have to be prosecuted for like 500 counts of identity theft.” And that's a&#13 ; federal offense (laughs). So I think it was a mixture of, you know, stepping&#13 ; into my power, but also knowing that I have, like I have a cap, I have a&#13 ; battery, at some point my battery is gonna go down and I need to recharge.&#13 ; &#13 ; So I think that was another lesson that I learned, was like how to recharge, how&#13 ; to self-preserve. Because I know there were times that I was doing a lot of&#13 ; things. And even just thinking about it, I was like, “That sounds like a lot&#13 ; like (laughs). When did you have you time?” I remember there was a point where I&#13 ; had stopped making such a fuss about that paper,&#13 ; &#13 ; and there was a student who was doing a class project where they were&#13 ; interviewing people about that paper. And I was like, I wrote in the comments, I&#13 ; was like, “Don't stop agitating, keep going.” So even in my time of&#13 ; preservation, I was still encouraging others to develop their power and what&#13 ; they found to be important for them.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Yeah. So comments on that. That's a really crazy intense story. And&#13 ; also just on a personal level, I'm glad that you were there to be the initial&#13 ; agitator essentially. And you know, just, affect that change, like how you said.&#13 ; So that's definitely a demonstration of power (laughs) used responsibly and for&#13 ; a good end.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Which&#13 ; &#13 ; is very, very cool. For my final question, I want to relate back to something&#13 ; you said at the very beginning of the interview. You described feeling like an&#13 ; other in your community growing up in Orange County. So, I just would like to&#13 ; know, as someone who has also felt like an other growing up in a community, if&#13 ; someone feels that way, what tips or advice would you give them to start&#13 ; agitating or get involved in social justice?&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: I mean--I feel like my experiences as an other sort of like, I describe&#13 ; it like a butterfly, because I am like--ambiguous&#13 ; &#13 ; (laughs) physically and mentally. I just kind of butterfly my way through groups&#13 ; and I learn from all those experiences. So being an other doesn't necessarily&#13 ; have to define you into the other box. It can give you capacity to be in every&#13 ; box. I remember my sister for those demographic questions where they're like,&#13 ; “What race are you?” And she was like, “I just check all of them!” (laughs) So&#13 ; in a way you just check all of them. You can go into this group, you can go into&#13 ; that group and people would welcome me, like regardless. So that was like really&#13 ; nice, to experience. But also I think--&#13 ; &#13 ; I don't know if every school campus has like a Social Justice&#13 ; &#13 ; Summit type of thing, but I honestly think that something like that definitely&#13 ; informs the way that you develop in your social justice identity or your social&#13 ; justice, activism. But honestly, you could, just join a march, like when they&#13 ; had the Women's March or I think there was another march for all of the like&#13 ; school shootings that were happening that were student led. Just being a part of&#13 ; grassroots organizations can shape that activist part in individuals as well as&#13 ; shaping identity, you know. But I think what I noticed in school (laughs) is&#13 ; when you learn about other cultures, especially in American history, it's&#13 ; &#13 ; terrible. They don't really put you into this really wonderful light. It's like&#13 ; genocide, slavery, and then President Obama (laughs).&#13 ; &#13 ; And you're like, okay--but where's all the in between? And so, you know, even&#13 ; just having literature, I would hope you know that the Kellogg Library has a lot&#13 ; of options, but I had friends who gave me literature that helped me to develop&#13 ; that part of myself and to see--people who looked like me that were successful,&#13 ; but also people who were affecting change. Who were women, who were, you know,&#13 ; minority groups, who were young. I think for me,&#13 ; &#13 ; growing up in a single parent household, you want to, or at least for me, I&#13 ; wanted to see a strong woman and like my grandma, she's definitely a part of my&#13 ; strong personality, but also it's like different when it's not your mom. And so&#13 ; for me, I was like looking for that maternal figure and so I found it a lot in&#13 ; supervisors, or professors, and I was like, that's the kind of woman that I want&#13 ; to be, who doesn't just sit and let things happen but will be willing to stand&#13 ; up for what I believe in.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: I think that's excellent advice. And again, just, a manifestation of&#13 ; taking pride in your identity rather than allowing that box or&#13 ; &#13 ; that label to define you or your actions, even if those actions are advantageous&#13 ; to social justice. So I completely get that.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Yeah&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: And with that, I know that we're at time. So I just wanted to thank&#13 ; you for taking the time out for this interview, Chanel. We definitely covered a&#13 ; lot, in terms of your personal experience, and I also learned a lot more about&#13 ; the CCC as I continue to interview more people for this project and kind of&#13 ; embark on this journey myself. So overall, just wanted to thank you for opening&#13 ; up and allowing others to be part of that experience and kind of understand what&#13 ; you went through and what you did.&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley:&#13 ; &#13 ; Yeah, definitely. Well, if you want any contacts for other people--who to&#13 ; interview or if you have enough, that's cool too. (Both laugh) If you want some&#13 ; of the OGs, (De Maria laughs) I still talk to them.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Absolutely. We'll talk offline, but (both laugh)&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: Yeah.&#13 ; &#13 ; De Maria: Thank you so much Chanel&#13 ; &#13 ; Bradley: You’re welcome,&#13 ; &#13 ; okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14.xml BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bradley, Chanel. Interview April 14th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Chanel Bradley is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Women's and Gender Studies in 2012. Chanel worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2012 and was involved in various social identity-related causes on campus. In this interview, Chanel discusses her experience as a peer educator at the Cross-Cultural Center and her recollections of the center during her time at CSUSM. Bradley was also involved in the Women's Center [now Gender Equity Center]. In her interview, Bradley also recalls how she revived the campus Black Student Union, protested the unauthorized student newspaper, The Koala, and came into her power. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-35 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Civil rights Civil rights demonstrations -- California -- San Marcos Minorities in higher education Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-14 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bradley, Chanel Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource De Maria, Michael Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. 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Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Riccardo Savo Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Brian Bilbray OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Tijuana;San Diego;Borderlands;Politics;Congressman OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Bilbray, Brian. Interview April 3rd, 2023. SC027-056 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm Environmentalism and politics Politics and government--21st century Borderlands Mexican-American Border Region Water rights--United States Water rights--Mexico Metropolitan government Politics and government--20th century Environmentalism and politics--California--San Diego Environmentalism and politics--Mexico--Tijuana United States. Congress. House Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Tijuana ; San Diego ; Borderlands ; Politics ; Congressman Brian Bilbray Riccardo Savo 1.0:|19(17)|34(6)|46(17)|62(10)|76(5)|95(5)|111(17)|123(15)|139(3)|155(10)|171(12)|182(13)|195(5)|210(5)|223(3)|235(9)|246(5)|260(12)|273(4)|287(4)|300(13)|312(10)|325(15)|339(16)|353(6)|364(12)|376(5)|387(12)|399(5)|413(3)|425(13)|436(13)|448(12)|458(6)|473(12)|485(10)|504(6)|518(14)|529(16)|541(15)|554(4)|567(7)|579(14)|589(14)|603(5)|614(15)|628(9)|644(13)|655(16)|667(6)|680(3)|690(15)|701(13)|712(9)|724(9)|738(3)|752(3)|762(14)|777(8)|789(5)|803(3)|814(9)|827(6)|841(7)|855(13)|866(13)|881(8)|895(11)|905(16)|919(9)|932(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b761005e2c7ce7501e9da0e69bfc90a2.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Congressman Brian Bilbray and Riccardo Savo introduce themselves and discuss what it was like for Congressman Bilbray to grow up in San Diego's South County, next to the border with Mexico. Birthplace ; Childhood ; Mexico ; San Diego ; Coronado ; Imperial Beach 0 240 Beginning in Politics Congressman Bilbray discusses how he began his political career. Along the way, Congressman Bilbray explains that he had to navigate the political landscape in a way that was analogous to surfing. Politics ; Dana Rohrabacher 0 363 Accension from Mayor of Imperial Beach to House of Representatives Congressman Bilbray discusses the driving factors that led him to successfully run as a Republican congressman including his college degrees and experience. Congressman Bilbray also discusses his previous experience as a lifeguard prior to politics. Law Enforcement ; Lifeguard 0 639 First Term as a Congressional Representative - Environmental Policies Congressman Bilbray discusses how his early political experiences as a city and county politician provided him with the expertise to form environmental policy in Congress. Congressman Bilbray sponsored numerous environmental bills that had a significant impact on San Diego and South Bay. Smog ; Smog Reduction Act ; Environment ; Tijuana ; Borderland 0 1030 Navigating Environmental Groups and the Border Areas Congressman Bilbray talks about how he helped to create the Otay Mountain Wilderness area and how he worked with groups like Green Peace throughout his career. Congressman Bilbray also talks about how the international border can be an obstacle when trying to work with multiple groups and agencies. Otay Mountain Wilderness Area ; Otay ; Frotnera ; Border ; Borderlands 0 1840 Challenging Authority - Second Term in Congress Congressman Bilbray talks about how there is a responsibility to speak up when you see something that isn't right. He also says that just because someone in authority says you can't do something does not make it correct. This mentality directly led Congressman Bilbray to run for a second, non-consecutive, term in Congress. San Diego ; Federal Government ; Healthcare ; Science ; Air Resources Board 0 2184 Tijuana Sewage Management Congressman Bilbray discusses how he worked with multiple agencies and passed multiple bills to address the sewage crisis. Bob Simmons ; Environment ; Sewage ; Tijuana 0 2926 Working with Bob Filner Congressman Bilbray discusses how he worked with Bob Filner. Bob Filner ; Sexual Harassment 0 3032 Reaching Across the Aisle Congressman Bilbray talks about how bipartisan legislation is essential to getting things done in politics. bipartisan legislation ; Democrats ; Republicans 0 3371 Local Government and Ideal Changes in Imperial Beach Congressman Bilbray talks about what he would like to see happen in Imperial Beach to improve the lives of people living there. He also talks about the importance of proper consultation by subject matter experts and following facts when proposing legislation. Imperial Beach ; Politics ; Environment 0 3778 Being in the Right Place to Change Things Congressman Bilbray talks about the California REAL I.D. and how some of his legislation did not pass. Congressman Bilbray also talks about going against his own party to convince them to pass legislation. REAL I.D. ; Immigration ; 9/11 0 4210 Outro and End of Interview 0 Brian Bilbray is a former Representative in the Congress of the United States. He served as a Republican representative for the 49th district (now 53rd) in California from 1995 until 2001 and then again from 2006 until 2013. In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. Riccardo Savo: So, formality. Today is April 3rd, 2023. I am Riccardo Savo, a graduate student at Cal State San Marcos. I'm interviewing Congressman Brian Bilbray for the University Library Special Collections Oral [History Internship] Project. Mr. Bilbray, thank you very much for being here with me today. Brian Bilbray: Honored to be with you. Savo: No, it's definitely an honor and privilege here. I would just like to begin very broadly, if you could just, you know, tell me a little bit of background, a little bit about your background here in San Diego County. I understand that you're a Coronado native, and, you know, a lot of the issues that you ran as a politician concerned about the environment. How was your experience in Coronado? How did that affect your transition or your, your risk taking in politics Bilbray: For the record, I'm an Imperial Beach. Savo: Imperial Beach. Bilbray: I was born in Coronado, actually at North Island, which wasn't technically part of Coronado at that time. But when I was chairman of San Diego County, I had that part of North Island annexed to Coronado, so I could claim I was born in Coronado. But no, I was actually born and raised in Imperial Beach, a block from the Pacific Ocean. Two houses separated my childhood home, uh, and the Mexican border. I had to go about 50 yards, maybe 40, 35 yards to go to the Tijuana estuary. And that's where I played, beaches, literally, I had the luckiest thing in the world. I literally grew up on the edge. On the edge with Mexico, and the edge, with the Pacific Ocean. So when I talked to my, my cousins in Australia, I could always explain where I live, because anywhere in the world, you just say, “You know where the Pacific Ocean is?" and “You know where the border is between Mexico and the U.S.?” Well, right where they meet is where I live and I'm growing up. Savo: That's awesome. Bilbray: . My mother was an Australian tennis player and accountant, and my parents, um, there was a temporary use of a hotel for General MacArthur, and my parents met there, and my father was a naval officer who actually was from southern Alabama. A place called Monroeville, where To Kill a Mockingbird was written. And he went to an orphanage in Mobile and got into the Navy, and they actually met, and in 1944, my mother came to the United States as the first group of war brides. In fact, she was very proud that she was the first Australian war bride to get her citizenship. So interesting mixture. But that Australian background with a, with an American, a kind of working-class background, kind of made me who I am. Savo: You mentioned once in an interview that you compared surfing to politics. You know, if you wanna ride a wave, you have to take a risk. Could you speak to how those hobbies and, and that childhood background, how did that translate when you were running for [San Diego] city council? What, what… how would I say it? What, motivated you to, to join city council? Bilbray: Well, first of all. Savo: Especially at a young age, Bilbray: You know, surfing starting, I started surfing at third grade, and I'm, interesting story that, when I ran for the city council at 25, 24 [years old], there was a man that lived on my block who I asked him, if “You'd consider voting for me?” And he says, “I'll vote for you no matter what. I've watched you your whole life.” And he says, “I remember you dragging a balsa wood board over your shoulder, dragging the board to the beach and back every day, and you look like Christ going to the Calvary.” And he said, “if you were determined enough as a third grader to do that, I think you ought to go to the city council.” But, the surfing analogy in life is just so clear, it’s that you get out of it what you put into it, but you've got to invest the hard work. And you've got to basically, put yourself in a position where opportunity may come along. And so you're not guaranteed to catch any wave, but you're guaranteed you're never gonna catch a wave if you're not willing to get in the cold water, struggle against the waves, and then sit and wait for the wave at the right time, and then the execution. So, a lot of this opportunity, a lot of it’s perseverance. And one of the things about surfing that a lot of people don't understand is, unlike skiing and a lot of other things, you can't see what you're going to do. You have to imagine the wave breaking to get in the right spot. And so, a lot of this is having the imagination to perceive what is going to happen and be in the right place at the right time with the right talents and the right tools to be able to take advantage of it. And to be able to, you know, accomplish anything with it. And so that, in a little way, I think that applies to all life, but in politics, it just happens to be a little higher profile. Savo: Okay. Bilbray: Oh, by the way. -- Savo: Yes. Bilbray: One of the lines I always said to Dana Rorabacher, which was a guy from Huntington Beach. He would not endorse me for Congress until I went up to Huntington Beach and surfed with him. And he just said, then he said,” Why are you so much a better surfer than I am?” And I said, “Dana, I've been doing it a lot longer than you have, but you surf like your politics, you only go to the right. There's a whole left to a wave. So, if you're willing to just catch the good wave, sometimes you go to the left and sometimes you go to the right.” And I think he took the analogy appropriately [laughs] Savo: That’s great. So, I'm curious to learn about how you went from becoming mayor and then ascending to the House of Representatives. You know, you first represented the 50th district and the 52nd, I believe. Bilbray: 49th and then the 50th. Savo: 50th. My apologies. Could you talk about that ascent for me briefly, if you could? Bilbray: I actually got involved with politics, because I was a lifeguard. And the whole ocean was always very much a big part of my life. But being down there, the clash between law enforcement and the kids on the street, and you had drug dealing in Imperial Beach. But then the law enforcement almost approached it as if everybody who was longhaired and young was involved in this. And I actually got involved with getting groups together to work with the police and get the police to meet the kids and the kids. So that, you know, knowledge is the most important thing law enforcement has. And as a lifeguard, that gave me a good position of someplace where I could, um, that I was neither fish nor fowl. I was sort of in between the law enforcement and the kids on the beach. Bilbray: They were used to lifeguards being around. We weren't a threat. That ended up getting me involved with it. And, when I was 24 years old, actually was 23! I was appointed as a human relations commissioner by the city. And then at 24, I was asked after a rescue where I, had a girl around my neck and I had to do a in-water resuscitation on a young lady. In fact, I always remember how blue she was. I didn't, I really didn't believe we, I had a chance to save her. She was face down and I ended up resuscitating and going-- didn't get any response to her, in her vitals. But halfway to the hospital after the EMTs picked her up, she was… survived. What I didn't know at that time was, we do rescues, like a lot of rescues not in the water resuscitations like that, but we do a lot of it. Bilbray: And you never think about, it's just another rescue. But what happened this time was there happened to be a local newspaper photographer taking pictures of the beach, and he had a whole series of this rescue. So, then the city gave me a big award for saving it. And then people started saying, “He ever thought about getting involved in politics?” And my family had been involved in the formation of the city and a couple recalls. So, as a young, younger person. I sat through meetings and when my father died, my father died when I was in 10th grade. I kind of got mom into the political scene as a way to keep her busy as a high school student. And that sort of led to people thinking comfortable that they could try to talk this young, you know, 24-year-old running for the city council. And I was elected to the city council just after my 25th birthday, a couple months after my 25th birthday. Savo: Wow. And I'm assuming that's like probably around March? Bilbray: April. Savo: April. Oh. So, then… Bilbray: The elections were, separated in those days. And I mean local elections were able to be placed any time they wanted to. Savo: Okay. So this had all happened after the fact that you had attended Southwestern and everything? Bilbray: Yeah. I actually, what happened was, I was a history major with a theater arts minor. Like I say quite freely, I wanted to be a history professor, but I couldn't pull the academics, so I got stuck in Congress instead. But the theater, really the history background with a theater minor really did help me in politics. I mean, in fact, there's a lot of camera crews for TV stations here in town that always, still, jack me up for telling them, “Well, now do you want to get this angle of the light?” [laughs] I would set up the shots because I was used to it. But I'm, I think that it helps to some degree to understand presentation. And not in debate. I think a lot of [the] problem [with] people in politics thinks debates, what's really important Message is a lot more than arguing. Savo: It's all about the understanding, the knowledge, the whole presentation as well. But, you know, it's, it's having that mindset or having that expertise. Bilbray: Yeah. Savo: So I'm curious to learn about your first term as a congressman in the House of Representatives. You authored, sponsored numerous pieces of legislation that not only pertained to the local environment, but also to our border. You introduced the Border Smog Reduction Act of 1998. Could you tell me a little bit about that? How were you able to garner support within the House to do so? And did you work with other local representatives to achieve that? Bilbray: Well, first really, my years in local government gave me a real background that most people in Washington don't have. I served on the California Coastal Commission. I was able to, I served on the Air Resources Board for the state of California, the notorious CARP working with some of the best scientists in the world. And legislators don't have this kind of exposure. I served on the Air District for San Diego County and so, a lot of the technical stuff that you pick up in local administration, you would never be able to have in almost any other field. And so I was, I had worked as a mayor because of the Tijuana sewage problem. I had, you know, 45 million gallons of raw sewage pouring into my city in 1980. And I was aware of that. Bilbray: But the Air Resources Board and the Air District, I sponsored the Smog Reduction Act because you had a situation to where the federal government was requiring that if somebody worked in a non-attainment area, an area where it's polluted like L.A., San Diego, that if you commuted into a non-attainment area, you had to have your car smogged in that non-attainment area. So that was a law. So somebody coming from humor or something would have to do it. Well, the same government that was requiring that the locals do this, were controlling the international border, and waving people in every day that didn't have their car smogged. And so we ended up in a situation in south San Diego, uh, the South Bay that you had Imperial Beach that might have had a real pollution problem when it came to water, but we had the cleanest air in San Diego County. Bilbray: And, because we didn't get hit with what they call the Catalina eddy, where L.A. smog would come out during the night and then blow down on North County and pollute the northern part. Our air, Imperial Beach was very clean, but two miles away, three miles away at San Ysidro we had the dirtiest spot in the county. And that was because of the traffic, the operation of the border, and the fact that we weren't getting the smogging going down. And I got exposed working on that problem. I got exposed to groups like Honeywell's Remote Sensing, where they were identifying that the stop and go traffic was a major pollution problem. And I mean, right to this day, you have no one pushing to have stop signs taken out. Bilbray: We’re talking about doing all these billion-dollar projects and all these great little environmental projects but, just going to traffic circles instead of traffic lights, going to yield signs instead of stop signs, huge reduction in air emissions, and nobody talks about it. It's totally blind. But because I worked on that border smog as a local government guy, I then was in the position that when I got to Washington, I knew the problem, I knew the technicalities and, and pushed that. And what's interesting about the Border Smog Reduction Act, we did not have one Mexican national complain about it. Not one! The people that complained were Americans who were registering their cars out of the country to avoid the deal. And it was U.S. citizens that said, “Well, I'm a U.S. citizen. I have the right to do this.” And all of this, you know, when you do these things, the learning curve is so steep, you learn so much by just making the effort to move it forward. Savo: Hmm That’s very interesting. I didn't know that it was mainly U.S. nationals complaining about this bill. I assume that there would've been some repercussions from the Mexican end. But, I'm interested, how that was perceived after the bill was passed. Were there any political fallout from that? Bilbray: No, you would think that, you think that people, you know, everybody's got a hypersensitivity. Um, like I, I was told by Greenpeace one time that they don't wanna look punitive to a nation of color. So you can't apply the normal standards to certain areas because people then have a hypersensitivity of looking to be outraged about it. I didn't sense very much attack at all. I think that everybody's gotta remember the greatest victims of that problem. The only people that were impacted more than San Ysidro, was Tijuana. And, a lot of that border pollution issue is the fact that the most vulnerable and the poorest are the most impacted. And that isn't discussed about very much. And so, uh, no. I'm sure that there might have been a lot more people upset, but really, it was very focused on the fact that the problem was something that just common sense. That if you want to have the opportunity to go to school in San Diego County, if you want the opportunity to work in San Diego County, with those opportunities, go environmental responsibilities. And that nexus that connection is essential for not only our environmental policy, but for our whole quality of life. Bilbray: You can't maintain any standard if you're going to find excuses to not, maintain a minimum standard. Savo: You mentioned groups like Greenpeace. Um, how, how were you able to reach across to these groups? Or how were you able to be in connection with these groups if they were not so willing to back your bill or not so willing to help the crisis? It seems like they were more counterproductive. It seems like they were more-- Bilbray: Well, they can be on situations like that. But when I did the. I created the Otai Mountain Wilderness Area. And in Washington, because you have certain mindsets in Washington. But, in Washington, when I proposed that we were going to have a wilderness area that had roads in it, you would've think that I was committing the greatest sacrilege in the world because that they couldn't understand, “Well then why have wilderness [area], if you have wilderness [that] is all about roads?” And, actually, it was the local Sierra Club that helped me carry the message to Washington and to the National Sierra Club that without the roads, the wilderness area would be totally destroyed. And they said, “Why?” I said, because the border will be totally out of control. And you have people that had no life experience of the Frontera and what goes on in the frontier. Bilbray: I mean, you're looking at somebody that, when I was 10 years old, walked from Imperial Beach all the way down and, you know, crossed into Mexico and came back. My mother actually caught me as I was crossing. And before she passed away, I said, how did you know to come catch me down there? She goes, “Well, I went to the park and across the street they said, ‘Oh, Brian went with this 10-year-old and, this 12-year-old, and he's going to Mexico.’” And so, she drove down and caught me. But, that kind of, you know, growing up with that environment, you sort of go back and forth about how you approach this. When it comes to, there's just. It's just astonishing how with the entire Frontera area, people are intimidated by it. Bilbray: [They] are absolutely intimidated. And it's so alien to them. I mean, to this day, you have people come visit you at your house, and you can walk out of my front doorstep and see the bull ring at La Playa [in Tijuana]. And Tijuana looks down on Imperial Beach. We take that for granted, and people just don't comprehend that. And I think that a lot of this kind of stuff is, people are intimidated. Even environmentalist groups and NGOs are very intimidated by it. And I remember there was a lady who served with me on the County [of San Diego] Board of Supervisors, Susan Golding, who, was doing something about the border. And she got totally attacked because she said something that somebody was always sensitive about. And she walked in my office very upset and said, “What's going on?” Bilbray: And I said, it's a landmine. As soon as you get around that border region, people are looking at one side or the other, and it's totally different. And don't get upset about it. And they're very uncomfortable about the border. But see, when you grow up in Imperial Beach, when you grow up in San Ysidro, Chula Vista, you know, at least 20% of the kids that we went to school with lived in Tijuana. I mean, which came in handy when you were in high school because you go down there, and you knew somebody's uncle owned one of the bars. You know, it was just one of those things that we were culturally, crossing. But that is, we take it for granted. And that's a big mistake for us taking it for granted. The ability for people to comprehend the trans-frontera culture is so tough for 'em. I mean, that line gets in there. When you try to explain to 'em, and any of us that grew [up] on the South Bay know, you can know where Mexico starts and where the U.S. starts by the color of the lights. And we just sort of think about that. Well, it's something that just doesn't happen through osmosis. It just happens to be our neighborhood. Savo: You mentioned that's a lot to take in. You mentioned this transnational community, this area that IB [Imperial Beach]is located in. Would you say that this community that's being formed here, did it have any effect on the development in IB [Imperial Beach]? Because I know, there's a lot of different propositions that you wanted, recreational that you wanted to… Bilbray: You had, you had. Let me tell you the transformation and anybody that grew up in the South Bay understands it. Where else in America, when do you have to drive through two other cities to get to the other part of a city? Savo: That’s true. Bilbray: Physically cannot go on. A lot of people, we take it for granted, but the extraordinary situation that happened with the major wealth in the city of San Diego, using their political power and influence to annex a huge area in our neighborhoods, and it was for their land development schemes. You had major investors from San Diego City buy in an area called Otai Mesa along the border. And they bought all the land around a place called Brownfield, and they were going to make the international airport there, and they were gonna make a fortune. That major investment, they annexed, and cut a deal, so that they could annex down a waterway, 300 feet wide, down the middle of San Diego Bay, uh, negotiated with cities not to claim their old title. Bilbray: So, they could sneak down here and then annex an appendage down along the border so they could control the border crossing at San Ysidro, and they could take the airport and move the airport down there and make a fortune. They used that to stop any development in the estuary or in the valley because they wanted that all free and clear for landing jets over the top of it. ’Cause they didn't wanna see the problems we had at, at Lindbergh Field. All of that was part of something that those of us in the South Bay didn't even know what was going on. And the annexation of San Diego into the South Bay was a major intrusion. I mean, the south, the South Bay part of San Diego is nothing, less than a colony. And I watched that, I watched it in many little ways, but the manifestation that I try to explain to people so they can have a visual is that when you drive from Imperial Beach and leave Imperial Beach and go into San Diego, between the freeway and Imperial Beach. You'll notice that there's not one billboard in Imperial Beach. Bilbray: But as soon as you hit San Diego, it’s billboard after billboard after billboard. And I know because I was county supervisor for Point Loma and for Imperial Beach, a lot of, most of those billboards were shipped down from the wealthy areas of Point Loma because you had a local council member who want to get it off of Rosecrans [Street in Point Loma]. So, the deal was you take it off of Rosecrans and we'll let you put it down in Imperial Beach in the South San Diego area. And literally using this as a dumping ground. You see hotels being converted to halfway houses in the coastal zone. There's no place else in America where that allows. You've got nowhere else in America under the EIS, the Environmental Impact Statement, could you cite a Home Depot or a Walmart, legally, anywhere with only one access point. You always have to have at least two, if not three. Well, down in the south San Diego, you not only have a Walmart, you have a Walmart and a Home Depot with only one access point. And that intersection is what they call a Schedule E. It is dysfunctional most of the time because they've created that. Somebody made a lot of money on it, and the environmental standards were abandoned because these are just poor people of color. And so, yeah. Don't get me started on this, but the whole concept has been a real problem. Savo: You you're very passionate about the subject and I'm very curious to know how...were, as a congressman, how were you able to explain to your, or illustrate to your constituents that you were that passionate about this, about what was happening in an IB. Obviously today, in today's day and age, we live in an area of transparency, right? Were we're trying to voice our message and our concerns. What, what was your outreach to the community and to the district? Bilbray: I had an advantage that because I had served as mayor and county supervisor, I had shown my passion for it before I was ever a congressman. In fact, I got a reputation of being a little crazy. And that, uh, but the situation was crazy. It started very early in my first term as mayor, where the county health department, which let me just say on the side. The County of San Diego has probably the best health department in the entire country. The standard, of quality, the science is second to none and it really helped me when I went to Washington. One of my greatest, I had resources, I had people I could call, I had people who were so far ahead of the curve on air and in health issues that were great. Bilbray: I had actually started over the issue that the federal government came in and condemned half of our city for a habitat preservation. It had actually been a big section had been condemned by the United States Navy called it the Tijuana Sluice Preserve. And that was the preserve, the right of the Navy to fly their helicopters over our city. And the wind. When I was mayor, we had major vector problem, mosquitoes. And we had salt water, late every year about September, the high tides, big king tides, and we get into it will cause [a] major bloom of mosquito larva. And I actually had mothers bringing their children into a city council meeting and taking their kids' shirt off and saying, “150 mosquito bites! We need to do something about this.” And they were right. When I meet with Fish and Wildlife, Fish and Game, I literally was told straight to my face that “Mayor, that's a sign of a healthy environment.” Bilbray: And that's when you start saying the system is too insulated from reality. And when the county proposed to go down and spray, and they show that they were using environmentally responsible, they were distillates that were very light, [a] thing called Golden Bear. You had Fish and Wildlife talking about diesel. Diesel hadn't been used for 60 years. And the scientists at the county showed, here's the environmentally responsible way to do it. We can kill the larvae. The thing disperses within two hours doesn't impact the, the vertebrates and whatever. And you had somebody in the position of power at Fish and Wildlife said no. In fact, they said, "If the county goes down there, we'll arrest everybody who's spraying.” And when they said that, I announced an a press release and did a press conference and said, good, because the mayor of Imperial Beach is gonna be the one spraying, and you can arrest the mayor for doing this. Bilbray: And then we can, we can stand up in front of court and let the system go. And I think a lot of that is the street sense I learned in a working-class neighborhood that, just because somebody in authority says something, doesn't mean that it's right. And that, you basically know that, you don't argue it in the streets. You take it to the court where it's not their turf. So one thing you'll learn is never fight somebody on their turf. Find a neutral ground. And the neutral ground would've been the courts. And I was coached on how to operate the equipment. I let the media know I was gonna do it. And sure enough, within a few days, the Fish and Game, Fish and Wildlife reversed their position and allowed it to happen. That shouldn't have to happen! And I'd like to think that that would, that is just because it happens everywhere. But frankly, I think there's a big double standard and the mentality of how people approach that. So, I learned to push the system right from there. And that led to issues with sewage and everything else, is that the system needs to be pushed. That's how you keep it honest. Savo: You talk about how you have to sort of break rules to achieve the ends. And, um… Bilbray: Well, let me clarify. Not, well, not needing to break the rules, but when somebody is making up rules that are not the law, then you not only have a right, you have a responsibility to call it down. And I guess that's the big deal. I'll tell you something. The Simon and Garfunkel song, [The] Sound of Silence is about the sin of being quiet. And I think we always stick to the edict that it's better to remain silent and somebody think that you're stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. I think it's always safer in our society to remain quiet. Um, I think that is as Simon and Garfunkel will say is a cancer, and it doesn't do anybody a service, especially those that are overreaching or whatever that need to be called down. Bilbray: So no, I think the biggest issue that I've always said is that, like a lifeguard, you couldn't stop me from going in the water and rescuing, I call it the tennis ball and the Labrador syndrome. When somebody like a 9/11 [September 11th attack], somebody like myself, when you see somebody in trouble, there's some of us that just have to go. It's just instinctive. And I call it the Labrador and the tennis ball because when you throw a tennis ball off the end of a pier, that Labrador is over the water before he realizes what he's done. It's that instinctive. And, I think that there's just some of us that are hardwired that way. And this one definitely has gotten me in trouble in politics. But I think it's probably one of the biggest things that I would never change in the world. I'd rather get in trouble for speaking out than allow things to happen because I found it safer to remain silent. Savo: Well that's great perspective because I was actually about to ask you, you have a very unique political story in Congress. Were you reelected for a second term, a non-consecutive term. Was there an energy that reignited your motivation to run again? Was the stagnation of the environmental concerns in Imperial County or Imperial Beach the reason that you decided to run again? Bilbray: There was, across the board there were so many opportunities in the environmental, strategies that are abandoned and feel, so, see. I introduced a bill to eliminate the mandate on California to use ethanol. I had the Lung Association come in and literally challenged me that I didn't care about people dying of cancer. My father died of cancer. Lung cancer. But they were going on a certain agenda. And I knew from serving on the Air Resources board that we had found at the Air Resources Board that ethanol was not only not a good, environmental option, but it was a pollutant. And to this day, the federal government does not do total testing on auto emissions because they want to hide the evaporative emission problem with ethanol because there is a huge Archer, Daniels, Midland involvement and involvement in nonprofits that claim to care about it, that Archer, Daniels, Midland, it's good for their business. Bilbray: And I don't mind 'em doing that, but I mind them wrapping themselves in [an] environmental blanket and saying, “God wants you to give me your money.” I call them environmental Jimmy Swaggers. And that doesn't follow the science. And so many people that you'll hear, “Stick to the science, stick to the science,” will abandon the science, not address stationary sources like inappropriate traffic management if we want to reduce air pollution. But the ethanol issue was one that the Air Resources board came to me and asked me to carry. And I knew about it because I just finished serving with them. That kind of thing, I think is essential to do. And I think for the credibility of those of us working on environmental problems, we have to do that. You can't pick and choose, you know, well, I want this one because it's convenient to do and not go the other way. Bilbray: And, I mean, I drove a natural gas car back in the eighties, not many people were talking about that and the flex fuel that you get into it. But, the, the challenge is trying to keep the science up front. Environmental activism is not a theology, it's not a religion. You don't have dogma. It's the best science you have at the time. And when the science tells you that what you thought was factual is not you not only have a right to do that, you have a moral obligation. I mean, it's so hypocritical to claim you're out to save the world, but you kind of ignore the facts when they don't fit you right. And to this day, to this day, I'm looking at what's happening here in California. Traffic Management, a lot of this kind of stuff that we're working on, nobody wants to talk about because it just doesn't fit the doctrine right now because it's sort of what's fashionable. Tijuana sewage was not fashionable. I built a reputation on that because I had no other choice. And right now, we still have that problem. It's worse today than it's ever been. Savo: So--Bilbray: Don't let me get you off your line. Savo: No, no, no. I just wanna make sure that I Bilbray: follow it up. Savo: I love, I love everything that you're-- Bilbray: Double back on it and get anything I passed that if I didn't hit it. What was your real question? Let me try to get right onto it. Savo: No, I was actually gonna ask if you could elaborate on some of the bills that you had authored, co-sponsored to address the sewage crisis. 'Cause you had two propositions to address the crisis. One, which was the expansion of the South Bay the wastewater treatment plant. And the other was a, uh, I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing it here, Bagua project. Bilbray: Bagua. Well, first of all, one of the things is make sure that the laws follow the science. And one of the things I got involved with that I got attacked for being anti-environment is [to] eliminate the secondary mandate [Secondary treatment of water through the quality control process] at Point Loma. And this is where people, you know, just get so frustrated that they care so much that they turn their brain off. They're leading with their heart and obviously, secondary is better than primary. So why wouldn't we go to secondary? And the fact is, is that it was lucky that there was a physician, I mean a lawyer who, named Bob Simmons. And he actually was just absolutely sharp on the line. And a lot of us, the line was always said that he could see it clearly, even though he was blind, that the law was hurting the environment. Bilbray: And what happened was he had run into the environmental impact report for going to secondary at Point Loma, they went through all the assessments from the environmental point of view, and they said that, “Because we're in this…” the outfall had been taken so far out to sea, was under three [thermoclines], the current of the Japanese current was dissipating. And, and the ocean was assimilating, that there was no net degradation of the sewer outfall at what they call advanced primary, about 89% of all solids taken out to about 94%. And then they looked at, okay, we're going to build, do this, do this, do this. And when they looked to go to secondary, the environmental impact report and the EIS, the environmental impact statement said, the building, the plants and doing all of that, will cause more environmental damage than anything that advanced primary was doing. Bilbray: So the answer to a problem was worse than the problem. And you had people that say, “We don't care. Secondary is the standard, is the law.” And Mr. Simmons talked to me about it, and he was right. And I took it to Congress and said, when an environmental law hurts the environment, it's being implemented wrong. No one passes an environmental law with the intention to hurt the environment. And, so here you had the scientists gave us a report and everybody wanted to ignore it because it meant that we had to go back and rethink an agenda. And what happened was, is that the Activated Sludge Mandate was meant for in-water, freshwater inland rivers and lakes where dissolved oxygen is a big deal. But in the open ocean, dissolved oxygen is plentiful because with so much action in the ocean, that they were taking something that was meant for ponds, rivers, and, small estuaries, freshwater estuaries and trying to apply it to the open ocean. Bilbray: And it hurt the environment. So, [I] actually had Donna Fry attack me for, well, that was because she meant well, but she was, she was ignorant about the situation. In fact, I think the history shows eventually she ended up changing her position too. That along with the, you know, we were talking about some of the other issues on the Tijuana situation. The Bagua [project] was recognizing that the problem was that Mexico did not have the problem. And I'll just tell you this, I have the pleasure of meeting every year with members of the Congress in Mexico and astonishing with all the talk about how people, we are neighbors of Mexico, how few members of Congress actually would go to these meetings. And once a year we meet in the U.S. or meet in Mexico and we talk. There was a gentleman who represented Tijuana in the Congress. Bilbray: And after the meetings, whatever, over a couple beers, he made a comment to me and he says, “Brian, your problem is that it's not our problem.” [He] says, “Your problem is to figure out how to make it our problem.” I said, what do you mean? He says, “You realize that when we dump the sewage, we don't have to pay for the chemicals, we don't have to pay for the pumping, we don't have to pay for the maintenance. You know, it just goes away. And what you gotta do is figure out how to make it our problem.” Well, one way we make it their problem, and the only way that problem is ever gonna be addressed, is when Mexico and Tijuana needs that gallon of sewage to turn into their next gallon of drinking water. And Bagua was a way of being able to do that in a third world country. Bilbray: And that was to get Tijuana on a total recycling program. Where they absolutely had to depend on recycling to be able to provide the water they needed for their country. I mean, for their city. And the concept was that we weren't going to send money into a third world country like we're doing, and we are gonna do again, because what happens is the money gets diverted to other places. A good example is when we first built the Banderas treatment plant in Mexico. I knew the engineering on that, I was in the negotiations in 1985 in Mexico City. Mexico wanted to get a grant to bring a million and a half acre feet of Colorado water to Tijuana through Otay Mesa, Mesa de Otay. Bilbray: And so we were looking at that plan. What we recognized is that, we were gonna send water down there, and the source of the pollution that pollutes our estuaries and our beaches actually comes from the United States. Because without that water, there would not be sewage flowing into the United States. So then their line was, we can't support this unless you can guarantee that this water's not gonna come back polluted, in 1985. And, the entire concept was we tried that, we were looking at that. And when they built the Banderas plant, it just shows you the little corruption that gets involved in these things. And it's not, and you know, if you, if you see the details, you kind of start understanding better why you have these in third world countries. They were open ponds and they had a thing called an aqua lift. Bilbray: And the aqua lift was a tube that air would be pumped in. And it, the aqua lift pumps the water by the bubbles coming up, draws it in. And the Jetco program with the aqua lifts that were engineered for these ponds had converging turbines. So, one turbine would turn one way, the other one would turn the other way, and as the bubble went up, it had all these turbines going there and dissolved the oxygen into the water so much better. And that raised it really up [oxygen levels]. So that was, and when we did the plan, that was all in the engineering. When they went to purchase it, somebody went over to Mexico and said, “Look, we've got the aqua lift and it's only 20% of the costs of these Jetcos. These Jetcos get patents. We've figured out how to do it without it being so expensive.” Bilbray: What they had was a tube with baffles. Now, what happened was it only had 20% of the dissolved oxygens that the other one had. So, the entire plant’s were only a quarter, you know, of what they planned on. Because they had changed this one component. And some people say, “Well, you can't expect them to do that.” Getting back the recycling is where we've got to get it done. And by Agua you have a private company bonded in the United States in Mexico, and they do not get paid for building anything, for digging anything. They only got paid for per gallon they treated, they would then be paid for that. So, outcome-based environmental strategy, and that's one of the things that I'm absolutely an advocate for is we've gotta get back to the concept that the outcome is what matters. Bilbray: You can build all these plants, you can do all these regulations, you can do all these things in environmental strategies, but if the outcome doesn't reflect your goals, then you not only have a right but a responsibility to change this. The regulations are useless And if, it doesn't work out. One of my biggest frustrations working with the Republicans in Congress was they could not see, and John Boehner, I tried to tell 'em and trying to get people to understand there are environmental regulations and you guys only see it as being bad for business. I can show you where it's bad for the environment. It's some of the worst stuff is done in the name of the environment. And so many of my Republican colleagues couldn't just get around, you know, just didn't see that as being important. I thought it's essential! Bilbray: It's the one place you could get the left and the right working together if they're willing to, you know, turn their brains on and open their eyes. And the Bagua was, the whole strategy was get there. Bagua was attacked because somebody was gonna make money off of cleaning up the sewage. And what's sad, you have nonprofits, you have corporations making money off the problem, but not solving the problem. And I actually watched them dismember a package that was put together with a Democrat and myself, [Congressman and former San Diego Mayor] Bob Filner and myself. And believe me, Bob Filner was no joy to work with. In fact, even the Democrats were shocked that I could work with him. But it was because, you know, you play the hand that the voters deal you and Bob was the the congressman from the area. And we worked out this way that says, these guys don’t get one cent unless they treat it, and they only get what they treat. Bilbray: And that was attacked because it was private operation. And people said, “That's immoral to have private companies doing these kinds of works.” Well, ladies and gentlemen, every project in Mexico is done by private contractors. And that's the naivete of people in the United States. Not taking the time to culturally understand that the Frontera is a different world. And that's where we get back to this issue of, we take things for granted here and other people just cannot comprehend it. It’s a quite unique experience we have by growing up on the Frontera. So, it paid off on that. Bagua was killed, and by people that now are crying, “Why has the problem gone from 45 to 55 million gallons of raw sewage pouring in every day?” Savo: Wow. You mentioned working with Bob Filner and the absolute, I don't want paraphrase here, but the absolute nightmare must have been to work and to kind of piece together this bill. How, how, [I’m] trying to phrase the right question here. Bilbray: Oh, lemme say Bob, Bob wasn't bad for me because I was on my home turf. Bob Filner was a carpetbagger. Okay. He, and I don't mind people come in and go back and forth, but, he ran in the South Bay because the South Bay was vulnerable. You realize that Juan Vargas is the only other congressman that ever represented the South Bay that was from the South Bay? Except for myself. That's an indictment to the process. But Bob came in, I had worked with Bob when he was a council member, worked with him before I went to Congress and before he went to Congress. And so there was relationships there that, again, that local government gave me a big advantage. I mean, his wife actually worked for me when I was chairman of LAFCO [San Diego County Local Agency Formation Commission], when I was at the county. And she was the director. And so, you know, relationships do matter, you know, human to human. And Bob knew that I knew his district better than he did. And I think he gave me more respect than I've seen him give anybody else. Not that he couldn't go unglued sometimes. Savo: I mean, you talk about these networking skills that you've developed in the county and then you obviously exercised it in the Congress. Could you speak a little to how you reach across the aisle when it came to these issues? You mentioned that you always have to look not only to the right, but you also have to look to the left. How did you find that goldilocks zone? How did you…? Bilbray: You pick up the tool that you need to get the job done. I actually had people attack me. [Congressman] Randy Cunningham hated Filner, hated that I was working with him. I actually had, you know, Republicans say, and I had reporters say, “You got Bob Filner on 80% of your legislation, why'd you do that?” And I said, because if I've got Bob Filler on my legislation, I got every left-wing crazy voting for me except Maxine Waters, you know? And so, I understood it, but growing up in my family I'm always used to that. My cousin was the congressman from Las Vegas, Democrat, Harry Reid's best friend. Harry Reid carried my bills. And they, you know, the concept that party line should be a barrier is absolutely absurd. And for those of us that are willing to cross the aisle, it's a real advantage. Bilbray: I mean, I prided myself on a lot of issues. In fact, the day I was sworn back into Congress, I made a gesture for a big reason. I was one of twenty-seven people in the history of the country that had come back from a different district. I purposely, when I gave my acceptance, at being sworn in. I did not stay on the Republican side of the aisle. There's two podiums, Democrat and Republican. I crossed over onto the Democrat side and I did my acceptance from the Democrat side. And there's an issue that you call in theater, they call violating your aesthetic distance. You're violating the presidium. You are-- like theater in the round, you're going into the audience. And they don't have the security of being away and sort of safe. And I did, I violated that aesthetic distance by moving into the Democrat side Bilbray: so I could talk to them personally one-on-one, in their face. Not from over here in the Republican corner. And that is a technique, but I think that it should, you know, people should use it more often. If people are safe hiding in their corners, you got an obligation to go pry 'em out. And, you know, Bob was obviously a real challenge. And he had a lot of his, you know, I worked with people in Congress and there's a lot of demons in Congress. But you know, who was it? You know, Plato said that, “Those who should rule won’t.” And I'm saying, look, normal people don't get involved with politics. So you get stuck with those of us that will. I actually had a gentleman named Allen UK, [the] man who gave me the idea of carrying the bill to bring the, the Midway into the county. Bilbray: And he wanted to get involved with politics. And what happened was so interesting is he ended up running against me. We ran against each other to replace Cunningham in the 50th. But he came to me and asked me, and gave me a compliment. And he says, “You are somebody that'll tell me what, what is the secret of being successful in politics? You've done it since you were a kid, Brian.” And, he says, “What do I need to do to be successful?” And I said, “Well, Allen, are you into pain?” And he says,” Oh, I don't mind it.” I said, “No, no, Allen, are you into it? That this is like surfing a big wave in cold water. This is like playing football, you know, you've got to be into it. You've gotta, you've gotta, you've gotta love hitting people and getting hit. Bilbray: Normal people don't do this kind of thing.” And you've gotta, I picture it as this must be how women approach childbirth. This must be important. Nobody would do anything that hurts this much if it wasn't important. And that, you know, that's why normal people usually don't get into politics cuz it's counterintuitive of everything. We're not, but we should be reflecting. But I think that there's a whole lot of good people in the game. There's a whole lot of people that are in the game for the wrong reason. And the trouble is the people that are affected by people in Washington and local government. Don't, man, people grossly underestimate the influence of local government. Most important stuff is the council mayor. And, when bad people get in there, it's the weak and the vulnerable to get hurt the most. And they get it from places that you wouldn't even think about it. Savo: Going back to about the local government and, you know, we're talking about that the federal government's kind of the problem to the solution. It's very counterintuitive. It's not, it's not the actual problem solver, it's the problem itself. What would you, what would you like to see change in Imperial Beach in terms of the structure or in terms of the environmental concerns? What do you think would probably be the most, beneficial, not outcome, but the most beneficial factor to help? Bilbray: We look, I had the privilege of serving in many different levels of environmental administration. Air Resources Board is the most aggressive, most successful environmental agency in the history of the world. They are equated to being Nazis because of a lot of stuff. And you get involved with stuff that you never would dream. I mean, I spent, I knew I'd reached the epitome of my political career when we spent three days on underarm deodorants. Okay. But I also watched Air Resources Board do the political moonwalk and backpedal so fast when they were talking about outlawing two-cycle chainsaws and then all the lumberjacks showed up at a meeting. But that application of people from different backgrounds, but the biggest key there is so essential. But having a scientific group to advise them and having that kind of interplay between people that are experienced in the field and those who are making the policy decisions and the flexibility, [it] really works into a large degree. Bilbray: But that can become out of control too. That can become tyrannical. I think the, the biggest one is looking at the difference between the Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act. The Clean Water Act is process based. You will treat this to this level, you will do this, this, this, and this. And then if you do this, it's okay If you pollute, you just do this. And we get into it. The Clean Air Act said if you've got dirty air, you figure out, you put together a plan to address this and bring it forward to us and show that you're gonna do it, and then we'll monitor you. But you'll do it, and we'll give you the flexibility to solve it and to solve, to take care of it. But, there's no limit of what you have to do. Bilbray: And if you don't do it, you lose all your interstate transportation funds, you have a hammer. That outcome-based environmental strategy is so much more advanced, and it's astonishing in so many places that we're still locked into process base. And the process base, I think a lot of it is, you can pick winners and losers there. You go to electric cars and you know who's gonna win in electric cars. And you had, you had Boone Pickens trying to get, um, you know, trucks lined up on natural gas and nobody gave a damn when Mr. Pickens was saying it. And, that you've, you've gotta say where are you gonna go with your reductions and where you're gonna go with your strategies. And that's where I just really think we fall down. Bilbray: It's so much easier for a regulator just to say, you treat to this, and then I can walk away with it. Tijuana sewage, the Clean Water Act, was an advantage. But people who claim to be environmentalists blew it up because they thought they were gonna go clean it up by getting the secondary. By not being a secondary, you then had this situation like we have with Point Loma, where you have a consent decree where they have to do this, this, this, this, this. Not in the law. Okay. If you're not going to go to secondary, you have to do all kinds of other things like recycling water up at La Jolla. All the recycling program was all part of this deal that the lawyer from the Sierra Club worked with me on. But if we went to secondary, like we did at um, in Mexico, the Mexican plant at the international treatment plant, then once you go to secondary, you're free and clear. Bilbray: You don't have no obligations. Okay. Now, now the pollution can flow. And that's what we've got right now, that we actually reduce the capability of treating the volume because instead of removing 89% to 92%, 94% solids at advanced primary, we now go up to 98%, 95%, we got this number, but it's only like 8%, you know, of solids more. So, if you could treat, a gallon here and you get 80% removal, but here you get 95% removal. But if you go to 95% removal, you can only treat a quarter of the water to do that. Well, this had the illusion in environmental groups, so this is better. No, it’s not. You are actually gonna have more pollution going into the ocean because you went to secondary because you’re not treating. [They say]” Well. What we don't collect, we're not liable for.” And say that's how the IBWC was able, their capacity dropped dramatically. And, it's just frustrating to see people that mean well, but don't look at the numbers and don't look at the total impact. And they don't. And really the problem is, so few of people that are involved in this stuff actually live down at the border. Bilbray: And that's, that's the frustration. People are insulated from the outcome. And today, we do not have a recycling program in Mexico today because people who claim they cared about the environment killed the Bagua project because they're worried about some capitalists make money on recycling water. Well, guess what, guys? You got Poseidon up in Carlsbad. You got people, private money all over this country right now doing it and you're gonna do it. That's part of, that's a tool in our toolbox to be able to clean up the environment, shouldn't, allow some kind of misguided theology to stand in the way of good science. Savo: As we're sort of wrapping up our interview here were there any bills that you wish would've passed? Not just related to the environment, but in general as your, as your, both your terms in Congress? Bilbray: Look, I got things done that… In many different ways. Bilbray: The, um, Bilbray: Dirty little secret is probably one of the most efficient things I got done was you open up, look at your driver's license. The real ID bill was my piece of legislation. I did it while I was in my forced sabbatical. And I did it because a group that had worked with me on border problems came to me and said, would you carry this? And I was allowed, because I was a former member, or I was a former voting member, that the chairman of the committee, Mr. Sensenbrenner, actually had to call me into a conference of his Republicans so I could chastise Republicans about the fact that it's not a right-wing conspiracy to have a minimum standard for the ID that you need to get on an airplane. And they say, “Yeah, but this is gonna be a national ID card.” And you had ultra-conservatives that were gonna kill it. And I went in and says, “No, this is the alternative to a national ID card.” You have state IDs, but they have federal standards. And those standards then eliminate the need to have a federal ID. You have. The states are presenting what is, which is enforceable as a federal ID. And getting that passed, is really a lesson for our everybody to look at. It is just now finally becoming mandated. How many years has it been since 9/11? Savo: About 22, 22. Bilbray: And they said, just let me back up and explain why 9/11 is mentioned. The terrorists on 9/11 did not have to show their Saudi passports because they went to Virginia and they got a Virginia license plate, even though, the license, even though they were illegally in the country, they got an ID that got them on that plane and killed over 2,000 people, Americans. And, then when Virginia stopped it after 9/11, they stopped giving it to anybody who [applied] and they required that you have to be legally here, you have to have the proper documentation, whatever, to get it. Maryland was giving it, given it to [people who] didn't do it. So that's when people start sitting around saying, this could happen again. And the people may think that, “Oh, well that's punitive not to give it to somebody who's undocumented.” Bilbray: Well, what, what do you use as a basis for your document if there's no documents, the person has any documents you’re wide open. So that one has been real easy. And it actually goes to something I learned my first year in politics, was 1976 and California implemented a digital code on our driver's licenses, and it was a barcode. And I remember going through hearings as a little 25-year-old city councilman about [how] with this barcode you can put it a put it in a reader and you could get all the information, you can get the picture. In fact, and to this day, I remember them selling that. That all we have to do is get these readers for every squad car, every cruiser. And a police officer doesn't have to sit down and do the paperwork. Bilbray: He can punch it in. The trouble is, uh, fifty years later, they still haven't put the readers in the squad cars. And one of the things was to say it was really important you pull somebody over that if they put this reader in and that the picture on their screen is not the picture on the card. You know, officers are now warned that there's a problem here. But a lot of that is, you know, just osmosis, you're around it enough, you pick it up. And I was able to pull out my California card to these right wingers who didn't want to do it and then pull out my credit card. And, I just said, um, guys, do you have a credit card? “Yeah, we had credit card.” Do you have a …, I said, the government already knows all about it. Bilbray: If you've got a cell phone, they know where you are because we required the, 911 code to be able to track it down because somebody crashed in Colorado, went into a snowplow, and the kids were calling for911 and they couldn't find them. And the story at the hearing was they, Colorado had every, all the state troopers run with sirens on. And then when the kids heard the siren, they said, okay, they stopped the cars and they turned off the sirens until the kids said, stop. And so they knew which cruiser was in the area where these kids were. And I tell the story because that led up to the fact that now every phone is tracked. And so, these conservative guys, I said, they already know where you are. They know what you're buying so to worry about Bilbray: This driver's license thing is absolutely absurd. So that's how we got that through. But there was, you know, look, there's things that you get to do that you don't even talk about. I mean, one of the best things I ever did never even was public. And that is we had a local business that offered to give their supercomputer to the federal government. They had worked with the UC [University of California] system and they offered to give it, as long as I kept it secret, as long as we didn't say who they were. And it was a local business here that gave their supercomputer, as a mainframe for the genome program. And that mainframe and that genome program, ten years later, when my daughter was fighting stage three C cancer at 20% chance of living with melanoma. A 20% chance of living two more years, that's all. Bilbray: And that mainframe and that system that was set up ten years before, found the b wrap mutation on my daughter's cancer. And that's what saved her life. And I have two grandchildren because these businessmen quietly contributed to this. And I just happened to be on the committee, the Health and Environment Committee of the Energy and Commerce Committee. I was on the committee that was working on the genome program. And that deal has not only saved my daughter's life and created the two grandchild children's lives, but have done a whole lot more. I mean, how many millions of people have been saved on that? And nobody even knows that we did that. And that's what's important to being at the right place where you can help, being the lifeguard, being able to run out and, you know, be part of that. And you, you can't, you couldn't give me a million dollars to change that. The little things you do in the back and aren't talked about is what really matters. Savo: Well, Mr. Bilbray, this was an excellent interview. I appreciate you for your time. It was a real pleasure. I thank you a lot. Bilbray: Well, thank you very much. And, if you have any other wines, let me know. I'm unemployed now, so, as long as I'm not sailing my boat to Mexico or riding my Harley over to meet my, see my cousins in Las Vegas, I'll be around. In fact, we are, [on] the 27th of this month. I'm gonna represent my cousin who just passed away this year. They have the 20th anniversary of his elementary school they named after him. See, they'll do that for Democrats, but Republican will never get it [laughs]. But that's okay. Well, my luck, they'll name a sewage plan after me. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_access.xml BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bilbray, Brian. Interview April 3rd, 2023. Description An account of the resource Brian Bilbray is a former Representative in the Congress of the United States. He served as a Republican representative for the 49th district (now 53rd) in California from 1995 until 2001 and then again from 2006 until 2013. In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-056 Subject The topic of the resource Borderlands Environmentalism and politics -- California -- San Diego Environmentalism and politics -- Mexico -- Tijuana Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Metropolitan government Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century United States. Congress. House Water rights -- Mexico Water rights -- United States Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brian Bilbray Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Mexican-American Border Region Imperial Beach (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Brian Bilbray License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Community history History Department internship Politics and governance https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/16c819ecee03d3978d8818963f0d9827.pdf d5078d0e63780b613c3a2061cc24e594 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bilbray, Brian. Interview transcript April 3rd, 2023. Description An account of the resource Brian Bilbray is a former Representative in the Congress of the United States. He served as a Republican representative for the 49th district (now 53rd) in California from 1995 until 2001 and then again from 2006 until 2013. In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. This oral history interview was made possible by the Ellie Johns Foundation stewarded by the Rancho Santa Fe Library Guild. It was created as part of CSUSM's University Library/History Department internship in oral history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brian Bilbray Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Robert Sheehan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-03 Subject The topic of the resource Borderlands Environmentalism and politics -- California -- San Diego Environmentalism and politics -- Mexico -- Tijuana Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Metropolitan government Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century United States. Congress. House Water rights -- Mexico Water rights -- United States Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Imperial Beach (Calif.) Mexican-American Border Region Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Brian Bilbray License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_Transcript Community history History Department internship Politics and governance Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Michael De Maria Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bridget Blanshan OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BlanshanBridget_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-26.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Blanshan, Bridget. Interview April 26th, 2023. SC027-41 01:11:22 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs ; Education, Higher ; Human rights ; San Marcos (Calif.) Bridget Blanshan Michael De Maria BlanshanBridget_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-26.mp4 1:|29(8)|41(7)|54(13)|63(5)|77(7)|91(13)|101(12)|113(5)|124(4)|144(10)|158(13)|169(3)|182(15)|192(14)|205(7)|226(15)|235(2)|244(13)|254(7)|268(4)|282(12)|292(9)|301(5)|317(12)|328(3)|341(8)|350(12)|358(13)|376(4)|392(6)|401(15)|412(4)|423(11)|427(6)|438(8)|447(12)|474(8)|494(10)|509(12)|517(13)|529(11)|542(14)|553(11)|565(7)|580(6)|600(11)|612(14)|627(11)|635(10)|652(10)|661(6)|675(8)|684(10)|705(3)|719(5)|740(15)|751(4)|761(7)|770(9)|787(5)|797(3)|810(10)|823(5)|845(4)|855(12)|866(7)|876(2)|885(4)|916(8)|924(15)|936(16)|953(6)|961(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/64050652e0eb6e5394c893ea21cb13c0.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and Educational Background Michael De Maria introduces Bridget Blanshan, Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator at California State University San Marcos, and asks about her educational background. Blanshan discusses her background beginning with her bachelor's in business management from Iowa State, working at San Diego State, and obtaining her master's from University of San Diego. 0 305 First Impressions of CSUSM Blanshan recounts her experience joining CSUSM after eleven years at San Diego State University. In particular, Blanshan discusses her role in the development of the University Village Apartments and student residential life overall. As on-campus housing emerged, Blanshan noted the shift in demographics as more younger students began enrolling. The foundations of student life on-campus were beginning around the time Blanshan joined CSUSM, which offered her a unique perspective on its development. 0 575 A Call for Student Centers Blanshan recalls her 2002 article "Vision 2010" whereby she proclaimed the need for multicultural (or cross-cultural) centers on college campuses. She cites the differing needs of students who find community through various means, whether that be Greek Life, sports, arts, or student centers ; identities have to be validated and confirmed. Blanshan discusses the importance of understanding inclusivity and diversity. 0 922 Social Climate Prior to Multicultural Center After stressing her singular perspective, Blanshan considers the differences between the urban San Diego with a more-conservative San Marcos region. In such a region, how might queer students, for instance, be under serviced if they do not have a safe space to express their identities? CSUSM student centers had their foundation in the Multicultural Center. 0 1182 Diversity at CSUSM Blanshan details how the Cross-Cultural Center and other student identity-focused centers exemplify the notion of diversity at CSUSM and how intersectionality reminds us to recognize the unique identities of every individual. Blanshan also discusses how centers on campus offer students a safe space to engage with inclusive and diverse communities which represent their multifaceted identities. Blanshan notes the importance of unity through both shared and different identities. 0 1414 Blanshan's Participation with the CCC Blanshan recalls the handful of initiatives and events that Blanshan directly organized with the CCC, including a first-week student welcome and the Multicultural Student Leadership Council. The former stressed the importance of recognizing and creating diverse spaces to be inclusive. The latter was a weekend retreat for students. 0 1766 Activism Through the CCC Blanshan emphasizes the importance of synergy among CSUSM student centers, and how with their unique communities, goals, and demands, they work together to promote the acceptance of diversity and thus a more inclusive experience on campus. She further discusses the Black Student Center, the Women and Gender Equity Center, the Latin /x Center, the Pride Center, and others that come provide space for student activism. Blanshan elaborates on how these centers are both a result and a factor in student activism. 0 2144 Opposition to Diversity &amp ; Inclusivity Blanshan recounts opposition to her work for student diversity and inclusivity. "Challenging the status quo leaves others feeling excluded or blamed," according to Blanshan, and it is important to hear and include those doubtful voices in conversations of progress. In the 21st century, workplaces are increasingly diverse and Blanshan stresses the importance of recognizing diversity to create inclusivity, and acceptance of those with differences as opposed to mere tolerance. 0 2481 Favorite Memories Blanshan recalls the weekend retreats with students among her favorite memories. Being able to engage in open dialogues with a diverse community of students reinforced Blanshan's work in promoting inclusivity. She also enjoyed the development of the center itself under then-director, Floyd Lai. 0 2691 Blanshan's Doctorate and Dissertation The findings of Blanshan's 2007 dissertation (A study in multicultural awareness of residence hall directors in California colleges) are discussed. Blanshan cites the influence of Pope and Reynolds' conception of multicultural awareness, knowledge, and skill ; this multifaceted approach informed her study, which found moderately high levels of awareness across California campuses. 0 2911 Cross-Cultural Center and Student Retention Fondly remembering her experience with Dr. Gregory Toya, Blanshan recalls his association between Cross-Cultural Centers and student retention. Within this, she recalls a framework by Nancy Schlosberg whereby those who feel important and represented, are more likely to become or remain engaged. Blanshan discusses how recognizing and managing marginalization should be a cornerstone of the CCC. 0 3181 CCC Change Over Time and Professional Impact Blanshan recounts the center's evolution over time, starting with the change from Multicultural to Cross-Cultural Center. Blanshan discusses the foundation of the Activists Lab, where students engage in dialogues which challenge societal norms. Additionally, Blanshan defines how the center impacted her work as a professional, specifically in her role as Title IX Coordinator. 0 3529 The Cross-Cultural Center and other identity-specific centers Regarding the Cross-Cultural Center's coexistence with other student centers at CSUSM. Blanshan notes that the various student centers themselves recognize intersectionality and the individuality of each human experience, and that the Cross-Cultural Center allows students to "unpack unique areas of historical tension." Blanshan discusses that how issues evolve over time impact the roles of various centers, including the CCC, and that no center exists independently. 0 3768 Currently Underrepresented Communities Blanshan discusses underrepresented communities at CSUSM, including any student organization not affiliated with a center. Blanshan references Asian and Pacific Islander and American Indian students who cannot readily identify with a space on campus. While the Cross-Cultural Center provides space and resources to those underrepresented communities, Blanshan discusses the potential for future space at CSUSM for identity-based student centers. 0 4062 Advice for Student Advocacy For those seeking a career in student advocacy, Blanshan recommends an awareness of oneself and others ; focusing upon the motivation behind leadership informs the practice of advocacy for others. To make positive change, Blanshan thinks self-reflection is imperative. 0 Bridget Blanshan is Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator at California State University San Marcos. In this interview, Blanshan discusses her educational &amp ; professional background, student leadership development, and diversity and inclusivity on campus. De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I'm a graduate research assistant with Kellogg Library at CSU (Cal State University) San Marcos. Today I'm interviewing Bridget Blanshan, Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator here at CSU San Marcos. The date is April twenty-sixth, and the time is 1:36 p.m. So, Bridget, thank you for joining us today to discuss your involvement with the history of the Cross-Cultural Center, as well as talk about some other programs that you've implemented at CSU San Marcos. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: The first question I wanted to ask you was actually about your academic background. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: So what led you to your interest in student advocacy and ultimately administration in higher ed. (education)? Blanshan: Mm-hmm. Good question. So Michael, thanks for the time today. This is gonna be a fun conversation. So, I have a bachelor's degree in business management which I received from Iowa State University. That's the state in which I was born and raised through my college graduation. And while--as many of us, it occurs for many of us who go into student affairs work, it was really during my college experience that I interacted with student affairs professionals. I was involved on campus, and I thought, this is really rewarding for me, and this seems like an interesting career. Let me, let me see if I like it. Let me try it on. And so I had been active as a, a student leader and as a student employee, Resident Assistant was what they were called at that time in student housing at Iowa State (University). And I really enjoyed that role. And so, I spoke with my supervisor and asked what she thought, and she talked with me about kind of how to get my foot in the door and take a job to, to see if that was something I was interested in. So, I did that and I started as a Hall Coordinator at San Diego State University in 1990. I expected to be there just for a couple of years and then go back to the Midwest. But I really fell in love with the state and the CSU mission, which is really around as, as I think many of us are aware, really around being the educator for the state of California. Really providing an opportunity for the diverse student, um students across our state to get a college degree, many of whom are first in their family to do that. And that was something that I, I was very--really realized I was very passionate about. So, I then went on knowing that I would need a master's degree, at least, to continue in Student Affairs and work on a college campus. So, in 1993, I started a master's degree in a program called Educational Leadership at the University of San Diego. And I graduated with my master's degree in 1995. And that was great because I was able to match the, the core requirements, which was about half of the program, with relevant electives, which for me was able to do for example, some of the programs that they offered in their college student personnel or college student counseling program. So that was a great combination. And I continued working at San Diego State until 2001, at which point I came to CSUSM and started my, my tenure here. And then in 2004, I started a doctoral program at the University of Laverne, and it was a doctoral program in Organizational Leadership and found that really rewarding as well and really, really relevant. It's very much a hands-on applied program. So my educational background, which was really the focus of your question, is in management and leadership studies. I've been able to work in, either through courses that I've elected to take or the projects that I've done, really looking at organizations through a, a lens of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). And so I'm very grateful for being able to have done that. De Maria: Very, very cool. And very impressive. You've been at CSUSM since 2001. I'd like to know what your first impression of CSUSM was, and then in particular, what work you felt like needed to be done there. Blanshan: Sure. So, as I mentioned, I was at San Diego State for eleven years working in student housing. While I was there, about midway through those eleven years, SDSU celebrated its’ centennial. And so then starting at, at CSUSM, and the position that I came to perform was what was then called the Director of Student and Residential Life. And in particular, we were bringin--University Village Apartments (UVA)--that was about concurrent when the time I started, that was approved to be constructed. So that was a major focus of getting the campus ready to have on-campus student housing, and students who were with us 24/7 rather than students commuting at the point as they did. And so coming to, from a(n) over one hundred-year-old campus to a campus that was really new--I'm not quite sure that, I don't think we had celebrated our fifteenth anniversary yet, or we did shortly around the time I arrived. I was, I really enjoyed the students that I met, and I found that the, the campus, the employees were really, really committed to the campus and to the student body. We had only been admitting first year students. It, we started, the campus started by admitting transfer students, and then over, within say the next five to seven years, started admitting first year students. So one of the things that I noticed, from a student life perspective, is it, we didn't have some of the common experiences that first year students on other campuses had. We, there, there were very few night and weekend kind of activities, and which only made sense because many of our transfer students had families of their own, the average age had been, of a student in the early days of CSUSM, had been in the late twenties, so around twenty-eight or twenty-nine years old. So that's, that's very different than the, the college experience that we're offering today. And so, I really looked for ways to start building the foundation, for that (student experience offered at CSUSM today). So at the time, Student and Residential Life included, so residential life, getting ready for student housing and the experience they, that students would have there. We had at the time, two fraternities and two sororities. So we had foundations of fraternity and sorority life. New student orientation was part of the department, as were student organizations. I wanna say within my first, first year or two, we had, I think all of thirty-one student organizations. So it was, again, in its, in its infancy a bit. And then we also, shortly thereafter, started leadership programs. And so that was kind of what we were building, and trying to build that with a vision as to the students that the university would come to serve, as opposed to the students that, that we had served in the, the beginning of the campus. So that's maybe a long answer to your question of what did I think we needed to do? And it was kind of set our, set ourselves up with the building blocks, so that we could serve a student body that was very diverse in terms of age. So at that point, we were, our diversification was to be the average age coming younger, students who lived on campus, and a true diverse student body ; that would those kind of build those co-curricular foundations so that it was already, there wouldn't be impediments to students wanting to do things that really met their interests more than, than kind of how things had been outlined in the early years. De Maria: I see. So, a lot of new and exciting developments, obviously some growing pains, right? Blanshan: Oh, absolutely. Sure. De Maria: Cool. From there, I'd like you to take me back to 2002. So, in that year, you authored a memo titled “Vision 2010” that essentially espoused the need for, you know, a multicultural center on campus. So I just wanted to ask, what were your aspirations for offering that memo? And then why was there--you did explain it a bit in shifting demographics--but just why there was a need for a multicultural center on campus at that time. Blanshan: Yeah, I think, I think for me, and I mentioned this you know, as I shared with you about my education, I think it's both through my education of being able to look at, at leadership and organizations. And I would say that not only for being a workplace as a university, but also being a--a place, a college campus, is really looking at things through a diversity, equity, and inclusion lens. And so, making certain that we were continuing to evolve in a way where the students who were coming to study with us could feel that they could make a home or a connection somewhere. And so, it's, it's really to the notion of finding a sense of belonging. Some students would find that through a fraternity or sorority other students would find that through Associated Students (Incorporated, student governance organization). I felt very much that, two things ; one was that some students would find a place that specifically was designed to be multicultural affirming and in that, that use of even the term “culture,” we intentionally set it very broadly because again, this was before we had any, any identity center on campus that was only student focused. So, this was before the Women's Center, which then evolved to the Gender Equity Center, now, Women's and Gender Equity Center, (it) was before the Pride Center. So, it really was defined “cultural” very, very broadly. So how people's experiences, their community, their sense of identity, and how we could really intentionally affirm that, so that students kind of felt a sense of belonging. I, going back to thinking about, you know, student development as they engage outside the classroom and thinking about, so I mentioned we were also developing a student leadership development program. So for me in, in, you know, being situated in a new millennium, right, in 2001, 2002, the only way to really do that authentically in a way that met student needs, but also spoke to students, but also prepared them for life after college, was to have a multicultural focus on leadership. And so not only what, what is the, the end goal of our leadership endeavors, but how do we do, how do we do leadership and prepare students to lead in very diverse teams, very diverse communities and, and do that in a variety of different ways. So as they want to go out and engage in change making, how might they do that? So that was where, one of the reasons that I wrote that which is so interesting now in 2023 to, to think back of writing “Vision 2010.” But to--I think it was also part of that foundation building that I was talking about before. How do we really create this so that we're intentionally offering as much as we can for places for students to plug-in and feel like CSUSM is theirs? And it's theirs not only as a place to belong, but in a place where they can engage and make it even better. The other thing that I would say, not only in my education, but eleven years at San Diego State in student housing, I had an amazing opportunity to be at a very diverse institution. And in student housing in particular, it's a very unique kind of learning lab for people to come together and live together, a wide variety, a wide diversity of students. So we had to be very, very intentional about preparing our staff, preparing our student leaders to do those roles in a very diverse environment. And so that very much affected kind of how I saw my work in Student Affairs. And a lot of the endeavors that we did throughout the 1990s to enable students, much like I described with a Multicultural Programs area, but to enable students to feel at home, especially students from communities and identities who were often marginalized. And so really pro- doing that in a very intentional way. De Maria: Absolutely. So it sounds like with the founding of that Multicultural Center you'd be essentially addressing some qualitative gaps in the student experience. Not only on the emotional kind of community front, but also allowing students to gain some professional experiences and background too. Blanshan: Mm-hmm. Exactly. De Maria: Very cool. Now I'd like to take you, I'd like for you to take me back to 2003. So what was the social climate of the campus like prior to the establishment of that first Multicultural Center? Blanshan: Wow, that's a great question. And, and I can only, in order to be fair, you know, this is, this is only my perspective on it. So I can't speak for how other people would've described the social climate. And clearly this is informed from my eleven years at San Diego State. So being a very large urban university in the middle of a very large city (San Diego)--San Marcos, at the time the region, North County region, was I would say much more socially and politically, religiously to some extent, conservative. Compared to the broader San Diego County. So that, I think we felt--I felt that, I'll speak for myself, I felt that at CSUSM, that and I think the university was kind of coming to terms with how do we, how do we serve our community knowing that there, that this is a more conservative area within the county. I think we had students who I knew div-- especially some of the, the diversity and i--of identities that aren't visible. Um I of course assumed that for example, we had LGBTQ+ students, but I didn't know them because there wasn't necessarily a student organization. So there wasn't the visibility or the space, as I was more accustomed to at San Diego State. And, and I don't think it was out of any intent to exclude anyone. I think it was just in the building, the very formative years of the institution, and really building the academic programs and coming in and it just was really the time in the institution's development to really focus on kind of broadening the co-curricular experiences for our students. So it was, it was certainly a transition for me. But I also, I would say I also found such wonderful professional colleagues who were of like-mind. And we, we came together and partnered a great deal toward these initiatives. So we had in, the department's name shifted, within my leadership of it, from Student and Residential Life to Student Life and Leadership. And we enjoyed amazing partnerships with Associated Students (Inc). And that's not always something that one takes for granted on a college campus. But I think we were able to come together, clarify you know, how we each add to the campus, to the student experience, and how we can support each other in doing that. So it was, there was a lot of synergy there. For that collaboration. I reported to the Dean of Students at the time, who very much shared this vision and supported it with everything that he could. Certainly the leadership in (Division of) Student Affairs were supportive as well. So I think it was, we were, we were just in that place of the development of the campus where it, I guess the way to sum it up is to say just because something didn't exist didn't mean there wasn't support for it. It just was that growth trajectory that the campus was taking. De Maria: Totally. And it, obviously with necessary growth, that's very cool to hear about. In a 2006 issue of The Pride (student) newspaper, while introducing a talk from Reverend Dr. Jamie Washington, you describe Cal State San Marcos students as “having good fortune for being in a place where not everyone looks like them.” I'd like to know how programs at the Cross-Cultural Center, or at the time the Multicultural Center reinforced that notion and what those early programs looked like. Blanshan: Sure. That's--you're reminding me of things I've forgotten (laughs). One of the things that the Associate Director at the time, so the founding Associate Director Dilcie Perez, one of her first initiatives was, and this was another partnership with the Dean of Students Office, with all of Student and Residential Life at the time and ASI (Associated Student Inc.) was, she built the Multicultural Student Leadership Council. And so, within that council there were, started really with looking at student organizations that were built around identity. So, that could have been one, our, if we had a Women's Studies Student Association, which we did back in the day, if we had an African-American Student Association, so some of the predecessors of, you know, BSU (Black Student Union) or our LGBTQ student org (Pride Center), other organizations that were built around religious identity and expression. So really looking at purposely bringing people together, knowing that their, that their focus of their organization, their identities may be different, but the organization had a common mission which was to promote student belonging, advocate for student needs. And so how could they support each other or be allies for each other as they each sought to do that independently, but then also where the, where are the ways that they could promote that collectively as well. So that was, that was just one example. I think, you know when we had Dr. Washington, I remember, I remember that year and I remember the, we had a wonderful turnout of student leaders to go through that experience. And I remember thinking that and he was really focusing on diversity and leadership and equity and, and equity minded leadership. And what are, how do we get to know each other in all of the identities that we all share and that those in which we’re different. And the intersectionality that all of us represent. And so I think I just remember looking across the students that were assembled that evening and thinking, this, this is, this is the kind of opportunity that without the diversity of our student body, that opportunity would not exist. And so how do we, how do we take that and make that a transformative experience being the ultimate goal? De Maria: Totally. Yeah. And I think one theme that we've already touched on is, you know, the value of that educational experience, but also as a professional experience too. So being in diverse places oftentimes makes us just better at what we do. And then regarding your participation in, you know, Multicultural Center programs or Cross-Cultural Center programs I'd like to know about specific programs that were put on and then what your experiences were like, kind of engaging with them or directing with them. Blanshan: Sure. Oh, there were a handful. We did, we had started some, and I'm not going to remember the name of it, but a kind of a Cross-Cultural welcome for incoming students is kind of one of the, the events that we would offer at week, what are now referred to as Weeks of Welcome. Again, I think creating space where students could just check it out, see what it's like, 'cause that's really, you know it, we want students to explore as much of the campus communities as they can as soon as they get here. And so, I think not only to experience and to hear but also to experience that through this event, we're symbolizing the importance of not only diversity, but inclusion. And, and we often put those two words together, but they're, they're different, right? I think diversity, diversity exists, and it doesn't mean that it, it exists without our collective effort, but just because someplace is diverse doesn't mean it's inclusive. And so how do we symbolize that, have that be kind of a, a cornerstone program that kicks-off a student's experience at CSUSM, and then how do we just start and build on that? So, certainly doing hosting and co-hosting that for several years is, is one example. We talked about the Multicultural Student Leadership Council that we would do overnight retreats. That evolved over time into the better part of a weekend. So a Friday through, kind of like midday Friday through midday Sunday experience for students. And I think that kind of deep dive and being part of that was always really, really rewarding. Again, very harken back to a lot of the work that I had done at, at San Diego State. So really kind of bringing that in, for students to be able to do a deep dive and for them to create space where it's--it's where learning is okay and discomfort is expected. And to, you know, really hopefully broaden their viewpoints, or affirm those that may not be held by many or most students. And so I think doing that (overnight retreats), I think there were, oh gosh so many things as we brought out, brought on student housing as well that I've, I will always describe student housing as a high risk, but also high reward offering. A high risk in that if, again looking at it through the lens of a diverse student body, that if there's, if we're not there intentionally assisting students to live together through those differences, then the risk of someone feeling very targeted and excluded can be really high. The counterpoint to that is if that's done well, and of course that's, that part of doing that well is the, is students themselves being open to it. That can be an amazingly impactful experience. So, I think working very intentionally in partnership of--with our Resident Advisor, training with our professional staff and being part of the selection and training of those folks. Having that voice at the table that really is looking at how are we preparing for the student experience through a lens of, diversity and equity and inclusion. Or lenses, I should say. And that's not to say that we always got it right. But it, but there's not a chance of getting it right if there's not some intentionality to it. De Maria: Totally, and just acknowledging the difficulty of including that student housing component with Student Life, it, you know, sounds like you needed everyone to be all in, not just to provide that good experience, but also to provide the proper one for certain individuals. Blanshan: Right. Right. Yep. Yeah, it was, it was a, I reflect so fondly on those early days because it very much was we regard(less), everyone had a bit of a different role, right? Different responsibilities. But in order for anyone to succeed, it required everybody. Simply because of the size of our departments or the size of our institution. And we figured out how to do that well. So that actually was a rewarding outcome just to be kind of in community with our colleagues to support whatever endeavor was, was happening at the time. De Maria: Very cool. For my next question, I wanted to know about instances of activism you witnessed. Or participated in that stemmed from the Cross-Cultural Center slash Multicultural Center. Blanshan: Wow. It's hard to pinpoint something that stemmed only from Multicultural Programs, 'cause again, I was talking about that collaboration, that synergy. So I would maybe hope you'll allow me to go maybe a little bit broader. Some of the things that, that we just kind of accept as business as usual if you will, are the fact that we have the number of identity related centers that we do. So back in the day, at the start of the Cross-Cultural, well again, what we call Multicultural Programs and we had a very, very small space. But it then I think, and through our partnership with ASI (Associated Students Inc.) and their own commitment, then that generated a Women's Center, then generated the LGBTQ+ Pride Center. And then we, if you look at the (University) Student Union (CSUSM building), if you were to walk the third floor of the Student Union, you would see the Cross-Cultural Center, the Latin /x Center, Women's and Gender Equity, and the Pride Center. You'd go up another floor and see, see the Black Student Center and more centers to come. Certainly we have the Veteran’s Center and the, it's space where it's at. I think, I like to think that Multicultural Programs laid the, laid the ground for that to grow. Because I think having a space to come together and people to see what happens when students come together, then kind of lends itself to now we've opened the door, let's talk about what we want this to look like. And I, and those occurred by like I said, either through ASI or through student organizations and student leaders, really activating with the university leadership to make sure that they happen, in the case of Latinx and BSC (Black Student Center). So I think I look at it that way. I look at, at the fact that all the centers are in general in the same location. And that was very intentional. They're--we didn't split them out by like their home department, if you will. It was, “How do we place these so students are going to engage them as, as much as we can get them to engage?” And so it's no accident that they're on the third floor (of the University Student Union) together, right under food. 'Cause we know students will come in for food. I think things like University Hour (no classes held between 12 to pm Tuseday and Thursday) is that, you know, how does that relate to you know, Multicultural Programs? I think it relates because we also were introducing programs and events that where we could articulate the student learning associated with those programs and events. To reserve, you know, twelve to twelve fifty a couple of days a week in a college in a university's academic schedule is no small sacrifice. That is, can be considered prime teaching time. And I think it was because we had laid a foundation that we will, we’re able to say it's not that education is stopping from twelve to twelve fifty, it's just we're enabling students ; in particular, those students who didn't live with us weren't able because of maybe they had family and work and, and all kinds of things, but they were likely on campus so they could have an experience that they otherwise wouldn't have. Sorry, I can think of you know pointing to something as now that we see as large--that we can only envision, as large as the USU (University Student Union) I could see the vacant ground from my office window of where it was, where it now was built and sitting ; to something that I think, you know, University Hour is tradition here. I think presently the Student Leadership and Involvement Center which is kind of an evolvement of what we started with Student and Residential Life. They also continue to offer Women's Leadership Symposium. So that was something we also launched about the same time leadership from a leadership and cultural place. Because I think when we broadly consider a cultural experience or an identity related experience, I think that's where we get into notions that gender and how we are socialized to be however we identify in our gender is a really important factor to how we engage with the campus and the broader world. So. De Maria: Yeah, and I really, that really resonates with me in terms of thinking of the establishment of those centers as activism. Ultimately, all activism is meant to affect an institutional change. So it's just very empowering to hear that there were so many individuals who were empowered to do that and kind of follow in the Multicultural Center's footsteps in that respect. Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. De Maria: Well so, for my next question on a bit of a different note- Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: I managed to find a mem- or a letter, I guess, from FIRE, the Foundation for Individual Rights and Education. And that was a letter that you were cc'd (carbon copied) on regarding a student publication called the Koala. So the Koala, just giving a brief summary for anyone listening to this interview, was a satirical newspaper on CSUSM campus that was known for publishing questionable, lewd, some would even say obscene content about people in the community and would sometimes lampoon, you know certain efforts from student organizations to do a lot of (laughs) to affect change positively. Blanshan: Right. De Maria: So my question isn't necessarily about the Koala, but it is about opposition. So I do want to ask you if there were groups, or if there was prominent opposition? And how that manifested itself on campus. Blanshan: And when you, you say opposition, are you thinking opposition to establishing Multicultural Programs, or as we kind of went out and did various programmatic initiatives, or? De Maria: I'm referring to cha- yeah, so challenging the necessity for Multicultural Programs as well as the outcomes of those programs. Blanshan: Hmm. You know, I, I think we see so many examples of that, that opposition today. I think I, as we set out to kind of create you know the vision and mission for Multicultural Programs, it was--how do I say this? I think there are different roles for different change makers to move society forward. So I think there are some that are, are very focused on being almost, there's a role for opposing existing institutions. There's also a role for folks operating inside an institution to elevate something, which is kind of how I would think we did this with Multicultural Programs, bringing the program to life, bringing, you know creating even more space for it. I think there wasn't opposition to it organizationally, and I don't--so this is the catch with trying to mem--you know, go back 20 years in memory. I don't know that there was vocal or visible pushback, but I do think anytime we're talking about social justice and equity, it can be an inclusive space for some, and it also because it's challenging the status quo leaves others feeling excluded or blamed or it, that's where some of that discomfort happens. And I think we very much try to include, even voices who might say, you know, “Why do we need this?” Why do we--because I think it was, it's always being able to say to a student who may say, “I don't think we need this on, on campus. I don't think the campus should be spending resources in this way.” Being able to sit down and say, “Okay, let's talk about your vision for your career. Where, do you hope to work?” And, you know, learning more about the, the individual. “Who do you think your coworkers will be? Who do you think your boss might be? Who do you think, if you were if you have constituents that your product or services is going out to target, who will they be? And think about how these experiences might better prepare you to be successful in that environment that you are in that future that you're envisioning for yourself.” So I think trying to include, include everybody? While knowing that the impact of the program, the experience, or the initiative is gonna be different based on how people see themselves. And how they perceive their place to be in the campus community or the world. De Maria: Totally. And once again, you kind of touched on that concept of social justice, diversity, and equity kind of being necessary as something that we kind of can't avoid living in the modern world. So again, definitely resonates with me and is definitely a pertinent message to anyone who might not see the value of certain programs like that. Regarding the Cross-Cultural Center itself, I'd like you to tell me what your favorite memory is. Blanshan: Hmm. I have many. I think certainly something that comes to mind are the, when we started the retreats, and we kind of, this was, when I say “we,” it was a very broad “we,” so it was folks who maybe their- our positions didn't envision us being on a weekend retreat with students. But because people had either an area of expertise or a passion or experience in another role at another campus or another, you know, organization such as like Anti-Defamation League or something like that, that they could really come together, brought a group of people together that didn't always work with each other, and to really offer something that could be so transformative. And I think it's just, and also being with students as they go through an experience like that is a really--it's a unique opportunity of getting to kind of participate in or watch from the side of students grappling with concepts, grappling with their emotions around whatever it is we're talking about. Creating space to hear each other. You know, those are, those are just really powerful experiences. So that, that would absolutely be a favorite. I don't think I could name the favorite, but definitely a favorite. It's also been a pleasure to watch the space grow and watch it grow in terms of now I think some of the, the great work that Floyd (Lai)'s (Director of the Cross-Cultural Center, 2011-2023) been doing with us for, for many years, but like the Activist Lab (Cross-Cultural Center work space) or you know, working on, on preparing people to have difficult dialogues and how to do that. I think I think it's so critically, it's been critically important the whole time. But I, as I reflect on kind of what we're hit with in the media today about our, our own country and the world, that's not something we're seeing. We see people who you know, have very spiteful, hateful reactions to even ideological differences. And so, I think being able to, even if it's a few students at a time, it's enabling someone to have a conversation or see a conversation where we can have very, very passionate differences, but we can still respect each other. And in an ideal place learn from each other. De Maria: Totally. And that also relates back to what you were mentioning regarding diversity and inclusion not being the same thing and not being a package deal all the time. So I can definitely see that importance of inclusion, you know, even if it does lead to those difficult conversations or acknowledging some not so favorable things about our own behavior, things that we've said in the past. Blanshan: Yeah (talking over each other). Yeah. De Maria: So I, I totally get that. In shifting gears a little bit here, I do want to talk about your doctorate. As well as your 2007 dissertation in particular. So that was (a) study of the multicultural awareness of professional residence hall directors in California colleges. And in your own words, I just wanted to know what your findings were. Blanshan: Hmm. Findings were that it, the instrument was a self-support, or self-report survey. So I don't think any person who's done research would tell you what findings are without acknowledging that there are limitations to any method. I think, so within that self-report, what we got back were fairly I would say moderate to high levels of multicultural awareness. And so the notion, if you look at, you know, “Why is that important?” It's a construct by Pope and Reynolds, back in the early two thousands, of a construct of Multicultural Competence in Student Affairs (Advancing Social and Inclusion ; book by Raechele L. Pope and Amy L. Reynolds). And so, Pope and Renolds talk about that being multicultural awareness, multicultural knowledge, and multicultural skills. And so that awareness, knowledge of skills has to be there. But awareness of others and awareness of myself, if that's not there, then we're kind of--then we can't get to this place of multicultural competence, which in the dissertation I really argued was an essential aspect to student affairs work because of the diversity of our student bodies. So it was a fairly, like I said moderate to high in terms of the quantitative. I think as I reflect on it, not a surprise, although you know, you never know what you, you don't know what you don't know until you learn it. I probably got just as much out of the sliver of qualitative part of that instrument of learning where people believe their awareness came from. So, was it “I lived abroad as a child.” I think that was a response. There were, and it just, the range because it showed just a different level of reflection of, “What do I think this is? And where do I think this (multicultural competency) came from in me?” I could rate myself highly, but someone else may not agree. Right? So, there's the opportunity for other research of validating this self-report with peer or supervisorial ratings as well. But I think asking people, “Where did that (multicultural competency) come from?” was a really interesting aspect of that. De Maria: Got it. Very, very cool. And going from there I also wanted to ask you what your relationship was like with Dr. Gregory Toya (current Associate Dean of Students at CSUSM)? In particular I want to know if-- what your involvement was in his study regarding the importance of cultural spaces on college campuses and its relationship to student retention. Blanshan: Right. You see me smiling. I have a very fond place, for Greg. He was--I started as the Associate VP (Vice President), Interim Associate VP and Dean of Students in 2006. Right about March and April of that year, and in June or July Dr. Toya joined as the Associate Dean. And so, he was just a wonderful collegial partner. And I was able to--he started his doctoral program shortly, maybe a couple of years into his time on our campus. He had come from cross-cultural center work. That was his most recent position, before coming to us (CSUSM). And one of the reasons that I was interested in Greg joining our team, and selecting him, was because of that experience. And so, to see him then study that for his dissertation made all kinds of sense in the world. And I appreciated his thought about not only the association of a Cross-Cultural Center on student retention, but I think he also looked at what are some of those aspects of leadership or leaders in Cross-Cultural Centers that contribute to that (student retention). And you know, it was again, not a surprise because one of, to hire people into student affairs work, we typically will ask them to spend better part of a day or sometimes a day and a half with us interviewing on campus. And that typically will involve presentation. And so the presentation he was asked to provide, so I'm going back to 2006 before he even started his doctorate, was to ask him to name a student development theory or framework that he felt he would rely on to do the associate dean job as it was then defined. So he was working with students through student conduct, working through students with students on, students that were considering withdrawing from the university, and some other aspects of what was happening in the Dean of Students Office at the time. And he chose actually one of my favorite frameworks too. It's by Nancy Schlosberg. And I can't spell that out loud for you today, but I can get you the citation. But Schlosberg talks about marginality and mattering, and I don't recall his dissertation well enough, but that's kind of a foundational thing of: if I believe that I matter, then I'm more likely to participate, I'm more likely to persevere when things are really difficult because I matter to the campus, or I matter to someone on campus. As opposed to: if I feel like I don't make a difference at all, and I'm kind of experiencing something from a, you know, I'm experiencing even, not that I even worse than, “I don't make a difference.” But if I'm--if I feel like I'm being marginalized on my campus, then those things are less likely to happen. Those, all those things where we ask, because we're already asking so much of a student who may experience marginalization just to come back to campus day-to-day, let alone go through things that just happen in life when a student's studying for a college degree. And so, I think I was thrilled to work with Greg as he did his doctoral program and his dissertation and remember him, his (dissertation) defense as well. It was, it was a great day. De Maria: That's awesome. And I do have a few more questions left. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: All relating to the Cross-Cultural Center itself. So my next question, just in general how has the Cross-Cultural Center changed over time? Blanshan: Hmm. Well I think, you know even something, it's a name but I think names are incredibly important. You know, going from Multicultural Programs to Cross-Cultural Center, I think as we started to see more, whether it be services, spaces, organizations kind of become present on campus I think it could focus more on that cross-cultural aspect as opposed to providing a home base for everyone. Not that it shouldn't still be that, I would want any student, and I'm not the only one who would want this, any student to feel comfortable going to the Cross-Cultural Center. But I think some of the work like I was mentioning before, the Activist Lab, some of the space where we really can get into those dialogues across differences and, “What the heck is a dialogue anyway and how is that different than a debate?” You know I think that's, that gives it more space, more programmatic and physical space to be able to do those things. So that's been great to see it (the Cross-Cultural Center) evolve and kind of redefine its role over the last two decades. De Maria: Absolutely. And it's also been very enjoyable for me to hear about the genesis of a lot of these programs, especially as I'm embarking on these interviews and kind of hearing about things that happened, but not necessarily knowing the beginning of that. So, it's definitely a rich history, and I'm also glad it's been around for so long. Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. De Maria: And my last few questions are about the future of the Cross-Cultural Center. But how have your experiences with (the) Cross-Cultural Center impacted you as a professional? And what kind of programs do you see yourself working on as a result of those experiences? Blanshan: You know, I think--I think for me you know, from its, even its inception, it was a kind of a sense, a place of where I could kind of recharge myself. So, because it was a space that was overtly designed for, to be welcoming of people across differences, being welcome of myriad identities. And so, you know just talking about a very personal impact to me is it's a great place to say, “okay, I may be having, maybe it's a difficult day, but you know, I can just stop in and say hello and talk with a staff member.” And especially, you know, early on. And that was, that was a highlight. Like I said, it's been enriching to, you know, years ago participate in some of the retreats or actually some of the training that was offered and partner with different people to do that. I think I still--I enjoy supporting it. I think you know for the past you know, as you think about, as I think about my role as a Title IX Coordinator, and then also someone who oversees the University's response to concerns of discrimination and harassment, I see that as just another function within our stated values to be an inclusive community. And so, it's not directly related to the Cross-Cultural Center, but I think I hold on to initiatives like the Cross-Cultural Center as those initiatives. For example, among our students where we can enable them to feel included rather than, like I was saying before, marginalized which sometimes means that they believe they've experienced discrimination or harassment. I think, so it's all that is very um, it’s just kind of all blended in there. I couldn't, in working at the CSU, so I talked about working at CSUSM and San Diego State, you know spending my entire career at the CSU isn't an accident, for me. It's very much about the mission of the system. And to me that mission has to be informed through the values of inclusion and equity. And so I can't imagine that--I can't imagine being fulfilled by my work if that, if I weren't able to do that. De Maria: Totally. And that's also resonating with me regarding the establishment of the Cross-Cultural Center, kind of being like a manifestation of that mission, as well as like representing future programs that the University's gonna commit to. So, (I) totally get that. Um, going forward, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of other identity-specific spaces on campus? Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. I think it, I think it's a reflection of intersectionality, in one part, right? And it's not to say that our identity centers aren't inclusive of the many identities that are represented within students who go to the Latin /x Center, or the Black Student Center. So I think we're all, we have many intersections within our, each of us individually. But I think the Cross-Cultural Center being able to look at and potentially unpack some unique areas of historical tension, provide space for if we have student organizations existing on our campus that those communities in our world may be at conflict. How can the Cross-Cultural center help them to kind of find common purpose? Even if they're representing potentially even two warring communities somewhere in the globe. I think (the) Cross-Cultural Center, if you look at it as leadership programs continue to be built out. Whether it's a, even as you, like we talked about the Women's Leadership Symposium and that being very specifically open to everyone, regardless of how a student identifies based on their gender. So being explicitly inclusive of women, men, and all genders that with which students identify, but to understand a unique, some of the historical and then the evolving issues for leadership as informed by experience and socialization based on gender. So I think, you know, that even something that looks, or people may perceive that this is this initiative, this Women's Leadership Symposium is only for women. There is a, there's a space for everyone. And so I think whether that's, you know building on intersectionality that we understand or--and or purposely really creating experiences for cross-cultural -- broadly defined -- exchange. I think, you know I think that's where it's going to continue to be essential to our campus. De Maria: Yeah. And it's very inspiring to recognize that there's still room for growth and for change in the (Cross-Cultural) Center, even though it you know has been so successful and so impactful. So obviously, you know people change (laughs), culture and societies change, methods of education change. So, it's awesome to recognize that that center can coexist, but also serve a specialized purpose at the same time. Blanshan: Yeah. I think the--expanding the centers that we offer on campus helps give each center potentially a more, I don't wanna say narrow, but more clarified purpose. More focused purpose maybe. But there has to be synergy and a very purposeful, intentional collaboration. So that we can provide what we want to for our students. De Maria: Absolutely. Blanshan: At least I think what we should provide to our students. De Maria: Absolutely. On a different note, what communities do you feel are currently underrepresented on campus? Blanshan: I know we have conversation about an American Indian student center. I think we also are in communication about an APIDA center, Asian Pacific Islander (Desi American). So I think those are meeting needs. I think we look at, I know there was a lot of conversation that went into what the center, that into the naming of the center, which is now the Women's and Gender Equity Center. I think the importance of women being explicitly included in the name is important. I think, and I think it's also critical that it's not, I don't wanna say just, that it's not only a Women's Center, because I think we need to also be able to symbolically and programmatically represent the spectrum of gender that we should be affirming in our campus community. I think our student, our student body, our campus community is, it's a microcosm of our world. So, I think there are, could be that, and if you were to look at some of our campus climate studies, you might see that certainly we have disability support services which provide amazing services for our students with disabilities. But do, are, is there more that we could do different from DSS (Disabled Student Services)? Or more like a, whether it's a more social aspect or a sense of belonging. You know, DSS has a very specific role to play, but is there more we could be doing on our campus? I think, I think we continue to grapple, like every campus does across the nation with issues of bias, discrimination, and violence, sexual misconduct, sexual harassment. I think, and I think that's something that we need to keep our eye on in terms of our prevention and education. Those are, experiences like that are often life-changing. And so, you know how do we work our best work to prevent them? And in the event that they're not prevented, how do we make sure that our intervention and our response is as effective as it can be? So, you know I think, and I think we're and every college campus is a human institution. And humans, we’re pretty fallible. And we're it's a, like I said a microcosm of a broader, a broader environment. So, I think there are always ways that we need to be asking the question that you just asked. So who do we, who do we think is experiencing marginalization? And how do we start creating multiple approaches? Because there's, there's not just there will never be a one-size fits all approach to that dilemma. De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. And that's what leads to those kind of like, difficult, I guess you'd call 'em, conversations about— Blanshan: Absolutely. De Maria: --affecting change and doing the work, basically (De Maria laughs) in order to do that. So, thank you for sharing those thoughts with me. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: And for my final question, I wanted to ask you personally, if someone is interested in pursuing a career in student advocacy or even social justice, what recommendations or tips would you give them? Blanshan: Hmm. That's a great question. I when I think of advocacy and I think of a career in something like social justice, and not a surprise, right? We talked about my educational background. So I think of many things in terms of leadership, right? I think one of the first things to be mindful of is, and I, and this is, this is also true in that little snippet I gave you about multicultural awareness, being an awareness of others, but also awareness of self. I think leadership, especially on something such as social justice, such as advocacy, is (that) it requires a consistent intention. A consistent attention to my own motivations, how I—kind of where are those things where I find that really feed my purpose, why I want to do this work, and how do I kind of refuel when I've had difficulty. But I think in leadership and in equ--diversity and equity and inclusion work, if we don't always have a mirror back on ourselves so that we could keep ourselves in check, I think it could start, we can, the impact of our work can start to go awry. And I don't know if that makes sense, but I think it's really trying to stay on, what do I think is needed to make positive change. Is this just my thought or have I consulted with others, especially those who disagree with me? To think through what--am I in a blind spot? And then to go out and do the work in a way that we can sustain the work personally and professionally. De Maria: Totally. And I think--I think it does take a community to affect that change. And going back to what you mentioned earlier about diversity versus inclusion, the marriage of those concepts, it requires us to include others and to make those decisions, not just as a sole member, but as a collective. Blanshan: Yeah. I think--I think critical friends are essential. So, yeah I, we always learn more from people who are willing to, I'll speak for myself. I always learn more from people who are willing to say, “I disagree with you, and here's why. And I think you're missing something.” Because that gets me, that stops me before I might do something that might have an impact that completely contradicts what my hope was. So. De Maria: Absolutely. Well thank you for sharing that with us, and that's gonna be the end of this interview. Bridget again, can't say enough how much I appreciate you taking time out for this. I think this is gonna be an excellent resource for anyone interested in the history of the Cross-Cultural Center or just looking for some inspiration in joining the field of student advocacy and social justice. So once again, thank you. Blanshan: Thank you, Michael. It was a pleasure. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BlanshanBridget_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-26.xml BlanshanBridget_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-26.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Blanshan, Bridget. Interview April 26th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Bridget Blanshan is Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator at California State University San Marcos. In this interview, Blanshan discusses her educational & professional background, student leadership development, and diversity and inclusivity on campus. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-41 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs Education, Higher Human rights Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bridget Blanshan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael De Maria Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Bridget Blanshan Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5490a2f714ae99ef8991f09f90947482.pdf f155830d06e7141eac3e5191343c7007 PDF Text Text BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I'm a graduate research assistant with Kellogg Library at CSU (Cal State University) San Marcos. Today I'm interviewing Bridget Blanshan, Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator here at CSU San Marcos. The date is April twenty-sixth, and the time is 1:36 p.m. So, Bridget, thank you for joining us today to discuss your involvement with the history of the Cross-Cultural Center, as well as talk about some other programs that you've implemented at CSU San Marcos. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: The first question I wanted to ask you was actually about your academic background. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: So what led you to your interest in student advocacy and ultimately administration in higher ed. (education)? Blanshan: Mm-hmm. Good question. So Michael, thanks for the time today. This is gonna be a fun conversation. So, I have a bachelor's degree in business management which I received from Iowa State University. That's the state in which I was born and raised through my college graduation. And while--as many of us, it occurs for many of us who go into student affairs work, it was really during my college experience that I interacted with student affairs professionals. I was involved on campus, and I thought, this is really rewarding for me, and this seems like an interesting career. Let me, let me see if I like it. Let me try it on. And so I had been active as a, a student leader and as a student employee, Resident Assistant was what they were called at that time in student housing at Iowa State (University). And I really enjoyed that role. And so, I spoke with my supervisor and asked what she thought, and she talked with me about kind of how to get my foot in the door and take a job to, to see if that was something I was interested in. So, I did that and I started as a Hall Coordinator at San Diego State University in 1990. I expected to be there just for a couple of years and then go back to the Midwest. But I really fell in love with the state and the CSU mission, which is really around as, as I think many of us are aware, really around being the educator for the state of California. Really providing an opportunity for the diverse student, um students across our state to get a college degree, many of whom are first in their family to do that. And that was something that I, I was very--really realized I was very passionate about. So, I then went on knowing that I would need a master's degree, at least, to continue in Student Affairs and work on a college campus. So, in 1993, I started a master's degree in a program called Educational Leadership at the University of San Diego. And I graduated with my master's degree in 1995. And that was great because I was able to match the, the core requirements, which was about half of the program, with relevant electives, which for me was able to do for example, some of the programs that they offered in their college student personnel or college student counseling program. So that was a great combination. And I continued working at San Diego State until 2001, at which point I came to CSUSM and started my, my tenure here. And then in 2004, I started a doctoral program at the University of Laverne, and it was a doctoral program in Organizational Leadership and found that really rewarding as well and really, really relevant. It's very much a hands-on applied program. So my educational background, which was really the focus of your question, is in management and leadership studies. I've been able to work in, either through courses that I've elected to take or the projects that I've done, really looking at organizations through a, a lens of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). And so I'm very grateful for being able to have done that. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: Very, very cool. And very impressive. You've been at CSUSM since 2001. I'd like to know what your first impression of CSUSM was, and then in particular, what work you felt like needed to be done there. Blanshan: Sure. So, as I mentioned, I was at San Diego State for eleven years working in student housing. While I was there, about midway through those eleven years, SDSU celebrated its’ centennial. And so then starting at, at CSUSM, and the position that I came to perform was what was then called the Director of Student and Residential Life. And in particular, we were bringin--University Village Apartments (UVA)--that was about concurrent when the time I started, that was approved to be constructed. So that was a major focus of getting the campus ready to have on-campus student housing, and students who were with us 24/7 rather than students commuting at the point as they did. And so coming to, from a(n) over one hundred-year-old campus to a campus that was really new--I'm not quite sure that, I don't think we had celebrated our fifteenth anniversary yet, or we did shortly around the time I arrived. I was, I really enjoyed the students that I met, and I found that the, the campus, the employees were really, really committed to the campus and to the student body. We had only been admitting first year students. It, we started, the campus started by admitting transfer students, and then over, within say the next five to seven years, started admitting first year students. So one of the things that I noticed, from a student life perspective, is it, we didn't have some of the common experiences that first year students on other campuses had. We, there, there were very few night and weekend kind of activities, and which only made sense because many of our transfer students had families of their own, the average age had been, of a student in the early days of CSUSM, had been in the late twenties, so around twenty-eight or twenty-nine years old. So that's, that's very different than the, the college experience that we're offering today. And so, I really looked for ways to start building the foundation, for that (student experience offered at CSUSM today). So at the time, Student and Residential Life included, so residential life, getting ready for student housing and the experience they, that students would have there. We had at the time, two fraternities and two sororities. So we had foundations of fraternity and sorority life. New student orientation was part of the department, as were student organizations. I wanna say within my first, first year or two, we had, I think all of thirty-one student organizations. So it was, again, in its, in its infancy a bit. And then we also, shortly thereafter, started leadership programs. And so that was kind of what we were building, and trying to build that with a vision as to the students that the university would come to serve, as opposed to the students that, that we had served in the, the beginning of the campus. So that's maybe a long answer to your question of what did I think we needed to do? And it was kind of set our, set ourselves up with the building blocks, so that we could serve a student body that was very diverse in terms of age. So at that point, we were, our diversification was to be the average age coming younger, students who lived on campus, and a true diverse student body; that would those kind of build those co-curricular foundations so that it was already, there wouldn't be impediments to students wanting to do things that really met their interests more than, than kind of how things had been outlined in the early years. De Maria: I see. So, a lot of new and exciting developments, obviously some growing pains, right? Blanshan: Oh, absolutely. Sure. De Maria: Cool. From there, I'd like you to take me back to 2002. So, in that year, you authored a memo titled “Vision 2010” that essentially espoused the need for, you know, a multicultural center on campus. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 So I just wanted to ask, what were your aspirations for offering that memo? And then why was there-you did explain it a bit in shifting demographics--but just why there was a need for a multicultural center on campus at that time. Blanshan: Yeah, I think, I think for me, and I mentioned this you know, as I shared with you about my education, I think it's both through my education of being able to look at, at leadership and organizations. And I would say that not only for being a workplace as a university, but also being a--a place, a college campus, is really looking at things through a diversity, equity, and inclusion lens. And so, making certain that we were continuing to evolve in a way where the students who were coming to study with us could feel that they could make a home or a connection somewhere. And so, it's, it's really to the notion of finding a sense of belonging. Some students would find that through a fraternity or sorority other students would find that through Associated Students (Incorporated, student governance organization). I felt very much that, two things; one was that some students would find a place that specifically was designed to be multicultural affirming and in that, that use of even the term “culture,” we intentionally set it very broadly because again, this was before we had any, any identity center on campus that was only student focused. So, this was before the Women's Center, which then evolved to the Gender Equity Center, now, Women's and Gender Equity Center, (it) was before the Pride Center. So, it really was defined “cultural” very, very broadly. So how people's experiences, their community, their sense of identity, and how we could really intentionally affirm that, so that students kind of felt a sense of belonging. I, going back to thinking about, you know, student development as they engage outside the classroom and thinking about, so I mentioned we were also developing a student leadership development program. So for me in, in, you know, being situated in a new millennium, right, in 2001, 2002, the only way to really do that authentically in a way that met student needs, but also spoke to students, but also prepared them for life after college, was to have a multicultural focus on leadership. And so not only what, what is the, the end goal of our leadership endeavors, but how do we do, how do we do leadership and prepare students to lead in very diverse teams, very diverse communities and, and do that in a variety of different ways. So as they want to go out and engage in change making, how might they do that? So that was where, one of the reasons that I wrote that which is so interesting now in 2023 to, to think back of writing “Vision 2010.” But to--I think it was also part of that foundation building that I was talking about before. How do we really create this so that we're intentionally offering as much as we can for places for students to plug-in and feel like CSUSM is theirs? And it's theirs not only as a place to belong, but in a place where they can engage and make it even better. The other thing that I would say, not only in my education, but eleven years at San Diego State in student housing, I had an amazing opportunity to be at a very diverse institution. And in student housing in particular, it's a very unique kind of learning lab for people to come together and live together, a wide variety, a wide diversity of students. So we had to be very, very intentional about preparing our staff, preparing our student leaders to do those roles in a very diverse environment. And so that very much affected kind of how I saw my work in Student Affairs. And a lot of the endeavors that we did throughout the 1990s to enable students, much like I described with a Multicultural Programs area, but to enable students to feel at home, especially students from communities and identities who were often marginalized. And so really pro- doing that in a very intentional way. De Maria: Absolutely. So it sounds like with the founding of that Multicultural Center you'd be essentially addressing some qualitative gaps in the student experience. Not only on the emotional kind Transcribed by Aaron Williams 3 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 of community front, but also allowing students to gain some professional experiences and background too. Blanshan: Mm-hmm. Exactly. De Maria: Very cool. Now I'd like to take you, I'd like for you to take me back to 2003. So what was the social climate of the campus like prior to the establishment of that first Multicultural Center? Blanshan: Wow, that's a great question. And, and I can only, in order to be fair, you know, this is, this is only my perspective on it. So I can't speak for how other people would've described the social climate. And clearly this is informed from my eleven years at San Diego State. So being a very large urban university in the middle of a very large city (San Diego)--San Marcos, at the time the region, North County region, was I would say much more socially and politically, religiously to some extent, conservative. Compared to the broader San Diego County. So that, I think we felt--I felt that, I'll speak for myself, I felt that at CSUSM, that and I think the university was kind of coming to terms with how do we, how do we serve our community knowing that there, that this is a more conservative area within the county. I think we had students who I knew div-- especially some of the, the diversity and i--of identities that aren't visible. Um I of course assumed that for example, we had LGBTQ+ students, but I didn't know them because there wasn't necessarily a student organization. So there wasn't the visibility or the space, as I was more accustomed to at San Diego State. And, and I don't think it was out of any intent to exclude anyone. I think it was just in the building, the very formative years of the institution, and really building the academic programs and coming in and it just was really the time in the institution's development to really focus on kind of broadening the co-curricular experiences for our students. So it was, it was certainly a transition for me. But I also, I would say I also found such wonderful professional colleagues who were of like-mind. And we, we came together and partnered a great deal toward these initiatives. So we had in, the department's name shifted, within my leadership of it, from Student and Residential Life to Student Life and Leadership. And we enjoyed amazing partnerships with Associated Students (Inc). And that's not always something that one takes for granted on a college campus. But I think we were able to come together, clarify you know, how we each add to the campus, to the student experience, and how we can support each other in doing that. So it was, there was a lot of synergy there. For that collaboration. I reported to the Dean of Students at the time, who very much shared this vision and supported it with everything that he could. Certainly the leadership in (Division of) Student Affairs were supportive as well. So I think it was, we were, we were just in that place of the development of the campus where it, I guess the way to sum it up is to say just because something didn't exist didn't mean there wasn't support for it. It just was that growth trajectory that the campus was taking. De Maria: Totally. And it, obviously with necessary growth, that's very cool to hear about. In a 2006 issue of The Pride (student) newspaper, while introducing a talk from Reverend Dr. Jamie Washington, you describe Cal State San Marcos students as “having good fortune for being in a place where not everyone looks like them.” I'd like to know how programs at the Cross-Cultural Center, or at the time the Multicultural Center reinforced that notion and what those early programs looked like. Blanshan: Sure. That's--you're reminding me of things I've forgotten (laughs). One of the things that the Associate Director at the time, so the founding Associate Director Dilcie Perez, one of her first initiatives was, and this was another partnership with the Dean of Students Office, with all of Student and Transcribed by Aaron Williams 4 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 Residential Life at the time and ASI (Associated Student Inc.) was, she built the Multicultural Student Leadership Council. And so, within that council there were, started really with looking at student organizations that were built around identity. So, that could have been one, our, if we had a Women's Studies Student Association, which we did back in the day, if we had an African-American Student Association, so some of the predecessors of, you know, BSU (Black Student Union) or our LGBTQ student org (Pride Center), other organizations that were built around religious identity and expression. So really looking at purposely bringing people together, knowing that their, that their focus of their organization, their identities may be different, but the organization had a common mission which was to promote student belonging, advocate for student needs. And so how could they support each other or be allies for each other as they each sought to do that independently, but then also where the, where are the ways that they could promote that collectively as well. So that was, that was just one example. I think, you know when we had Dr. Washington, I remember, I remember that year and I remember the, we had a wonderful turnout of student leaders to go through that experience. And I remember thinking that and he was really focusing on diversity and leadership and equity and, and equity minded leadership. And what are, how do we get to know each other in all of the identities that we all share and that those in which we’re different. And the intersectionality that all of us represent. And so I think I just remember looking across the students that were assembled that evening and thinking, this, this is, this is the kind of opportunity that without the diversity of our student body, that opportunity would not exist. And so how do we, how do we take that and make that a transformative experience being the ultimate goal? De Maria: Totally. Yeah. And I think one theme that we've already touched on is, you know, the value of that educational experience, but also as a professional experience too. So being in diverse places oftentimes makes us just better at what we do. And then regarding your participation in, you know, Multicultural Center programs or Cross-Cultural Center programs I'd like to know about specific programs that were put on and then what your experiences were like, kind of engaging with them or directing with them. Blanshan: Sure. Oh, there were a handful. We did, we had started some, and I'm not going to remember the name of it, but a kind of a Cross-Cultural welcome for incoming students is kind of one of the, the events that we would offer at week, what are now referred to as Weeks of Welcome. Again, I think creating space where students could just check it out, see what it's like, 'cause that's really, you know it, we want students to explore as much of the campus communities as they can as soon as they get here. And so, I think not only to experience and to hear but also to experience that through this event, we're symbolizing the importance of not only diversity, but inclusion. And, and we often put those two words together, but they're, they're different, right? I think diversity, diversity exists, and it doesn't mean that it, it exists without our collective effort, but just because someplace is diverse doesn't mean it's inclusive. And so how do we symbolize that, have that be kind of a, a cornerstone program that kicks-off a student's experience at CSUSM, and then how do we just start and build on that? So, certainly doing hosting and co-hosting that for several years is, is one example. We talked about the Multicultural Student Leadership Council that we would do overnight retreats. That evolved over time into the better part of a weekend. So a Friday through, kind of like midday Friday through midday Sunday experience for students. And I think that kind of deep dive and being part of that was always really, really rewarding. Again, very harken back to a lot of the work that I had done at, at San Diego State. So really kind of bringing that in, for students to be able to do a deep dive and for them to create space where it's--it's where learning is okay and discomfort is expected. And to, you Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 know, really hopefully broaden their viewpoints, or affirm those that may not be held by many or most students. And so I think doing that (overnight retreats), I think there were, oh gosh so many things as we brought out, brought on student housing as well that I've, I will always describe student housing as a high risk, but also high reward offering. A high risk in that if, again looking at it through the lens of a diverse student body, that if there's, if we're not there intentionally assisting students to live together through those differences, then the risk of someone feeling very targeted and excluded can be really high. The counterpoint to that is if that's done well, and of course that's, that part of doing that well is the, is students themselves being open to it. That can be an amazingly impactful experience. So, I think working very intentionally in partnership of--with our Resident Advisor, training with our professional staff and being part of the selection and training of those folks. Having that voice at the table that really is looking at how are we preparing for the student experience through a lens of, diversity and equity and inclusion. Or lenses, I should say. And that's not to say that we always got it right. But it, but there's not a chance of getting it right if there's not some intentionality to it. De Maria: Totally, and just acknowledging the difficulty of including that student housing component with Student Life, it, you know, sounds like you needed everyone to be all in, not just to provide that good experience, but also to provide the proper one for certain individuals. Blanshan: Right. Right. Yep. Yeah, it was, it was a, I reflect so fondly on those early days because it very much was we regard(less), everyone had a bit of a different role, right? Different responsibilities. But in order for anyone to succeed, it required everybody. Simply because of the size of our departments or the size of our institution. And we figured out how to do that well. So that actually was a rewarding outcome just to be kind of in community with our colleagues to support whatever endeavor was, was happening at the time. De Maria: Very cool. For my next question, I wanted to know about instances of activism you witnessed. Or participated in that stemmed from the Cross-Cultural Center slash Multicultural Center. Blanshan: Wow. It's hard to pinpoint something that stemmed only from Multicultural Programs, 'cause again, I was talking about that collaboration, that synergy. So I would maybe hope you'll allow me to go maybe a little bit broader. Some of the things that, that we just kind of accept as business as usual if you will, are the fact that we have the number of identity related centers that we do. So back in the day, at the start of the Cross-Cultural, well again, what we call Multicultural Programs and we had a very, very small space. But it then I think, and through our partnership with ASI (Associated Students Inc.) and their own commitment, then that generated a Women's Center, then generated the LGBTQ+ Pride Center. And then we, if you look at the (University) Student Union (CSUSM building), if you were to walk the third floor of the Student Union, you would see the Cross-Cultural Center, the Latin@/x Center, Women's and Gender Equity, and the Pride Center. You'd go up another floor and see, see the Black Student Center and more centers to come. Certainly we have the Veteran’s Center and the, it's space where it's at. I think, I like to think that Multicultural Programs laid the, laid the ground for that to grow. Because I think having a space to come together and people to see what happens when students come together, then kind of lends itself to now we've opened the door, let's talk about what we want this to look like. And I, and those occurred by like I said, either through ASI or through student organizations and student leaders, really activating with the university leadership to make sure that they happen, in the case of Latinx and BSC (Black Student Center). So I think I look at it that way. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 I look at, at the fact that all the centers are in general in the same location. And that was very intentional. They're--we didn't split them out by like their home department, if you will. It was, “How do we place these so students are going to engage them as, as much as we can get them to engage?” And so it's no accident that they're on the third floor (of the University Student Union) together, right under food. 'Cause we know students will come in for food. I think things like University Hour (no classes held between 12 to 12:50pm Tuseday and Thursday) is that, you know, how does that relate to you know, Multicultural Programs? I think it relates because we also were introducing programs and events that where we could articulate the student learning associated with those programs and events. To reserve, you know, twelve to twelve fifty a couple of days a week in a college in a university's academic schedule is no small sacrifice. That is, can be considered prime teaching time. And I think it was because we had laid a foundation that we will, we’re able to say it's not that education is stopping from twelve to twelve fifty, it's just we're enabling students; in particular, those students who didn't live with us weren't able because of maybe they had family and work and, and all kinds of things, but they were likely on campus so they could have an experience that they otherwise wouldn't have. Sorry, I can think of you know pointing to something as now that we see as large--that we can only envision, as large as the USU (University Student Union) I could see the vacant ground from my office window of where it was, where it now was built and sitting; to something that I think, you know, University Hour is tradition here. I think presently the Student Leadership and Involvement Center which is kind of an evolvement of what we started with Student and Residential Life. They also continue to offer Women's Leadership Symposium. So that was something we also launched about the same time leadership from a leadership and cultural place. Because I think when we broadly consider a cultural experience or an identity related experience, I think that's where we get into notions that gender and how we are socialized to be however we identify in our gender is a really important factor to how we engage with the campus and the broader world. So. De Maria: Yeah, and I really, that really resonates with me in terms of thinking of the establishment of those centers as activism. Ultimately, all activism is meant to affect an institutional change. So it's just very empowering to hear that there were so many individuals who were empowered to do that and kind of follow in the Multicultural Center's footsteps in that respect. Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. De Maria: Well so, for my next question on a bit of a different noteBlanshan: Sure. De Maria: I managed to find a mem- or a letter, I guess, from FIRE, the Foundation for Individual Rights and Education. And that was a letter that you were cc'd (carbon copied) on regarding a student publication called the Koala. So the Koala, just giving a brief summary for anyone listening to this interview, was a satirical newspaper on CSUSM campus that was known for publishing questionable, lewd, some would even say obscene content about people in the community and would sometimes lampoon, you know certain efforts from student organizations to do a lot of (laughs) to affect change positively. Blanshan: Right. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: So my question isn't necessarily about the Koala, but it is about opposition. So I do want to ask you if there were groups, or if there was prominent opposition? And how that manifested itself on campus. Blanshan: And when you, you say opposition, are you thinking opposition to establishing Multicultural Programs, or as we kind of went out and did various programmatic initiatives, or? De Maria: I'm referring to cha- yeah, so challenging the necessity for Multicultural Programs as well as the outcomes of those programs. Blanshan: Hmm. You know, I, I think we see so many examples of that, that opposition today. I think I, as we set out to kind of create you know the vision and mission for Multicultural Programs, it was--how do I say this? I think there are different roles for different change makers to move society forward. So I think there are some that are, are very focused on being almost, there's a role for opposing existing institutions. There's also a role for folks operating inside an institution to elevate something, which is kind of how I would think we did this with Multicultural Programs, bringing the program to life, bringing, you know creating even more space for it. I think there wasn't opposition to it organizationally, and I don't--so this is the catch with trying to mem--you know, go back 20 years in memory. I don't know that there was vocal or visible pushback, but I do think anytime we're talking about social justice and equity, it can be an inclusive space for some, and it also because it's challenging the status quo leaves others feeling excluded or blamed or it, that's where some of that discomfort happens. And I think we very much try to include, even voices who might say, you know, “Why do we need this?” Why do we-because I think it was, it's always being able to say to a student who may say, “I don't think we need this on, on campus. I don't think the campus should be spending resources in this way.” Being able to sit down and say, “Okay, let's talk about your vision for your career. Where, do you hope to work?” And, you know, learning more about the, the individual. “Who do you think your coworkers will be? Who do you think your boss might be? Who do you think, if you were if you have constituents that your product or services is going out to target, who will they be? And think about how these experiences might better prepare you to be successful in that environment that you are in that future that you're envisioning for yourself.” So I think trying to include, include everybody? While knowing that the impact of the program, the experience, or the initiative is gonna be different based on how people see themselves. And how they perceive their place to be in the campus community or the world. De Maria: Totally. And once again, you kind of touched on that concept of social justice, diversity, and equity kind of being necessary as something that we kind of can't avoid living in the modern world. So again, definitely resonates with me and is definitely a pertinent message to anyone who might not see the value of certain programs like that. Regarding the Cross-Cultural Center itself, I'd like you to tell me what your favorite memory is. Blanshan: Hmm. I have many. I think certainly something that comes to mind are the, when we started the retreats, and we kind of, this was, when I say “we,” it was a very broad “we,” so it was folks who maybe their- our positions didn't envision us being on a weekend retreat with students. But because people had either an area of expertise or a passion or experience in another role at another campus or another, you know, organization such as like Anti-Defamation League or something like that, that they could really come together, brought a group of people together that didn't always work with each other, and to really offer something that could be so transformative. And I think it's just, and also being with Transcribed by Aaron Williams 8 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 students as they go through an experience like that is a really--it's a unique opportunity of getting to kind of participate in or watch from the side of students grappling with concepts, grappling with their emotions around whatever it is we're talking about. Creating space to hear each other. You know, those are, those are just really powerful experiences. So that, that would absolutely be a favorite. I don't think I could name the favorite, but definitely a favorite. It's also been a pleasure to watch the space grow and watch it grow in terms of now I think some of the, the great work that Floyd (Lai)'s (Director of the Cross-Cultural Center, 2011-2023) been doing with us for, for many years, but like the Activist Lab (Cross-Cultural Center work space) or you know, working on, on preparing people to have difficult dialogues and how to do that. I think I think it's so critically, it's been critically important the whole time. But I, as I reflect on kind of what we're hit with in the media today about our, our own country and the world, that's not something we're seeing. We see people who you know, have very spiteful, hateful reactions to even ideological differences. And so, I think being able to, even if it's a few students at a time, it's enabling someone to have a conversation or see a conversation where we can have very, very passionate differences, but we can still respect each other. And in an ideal place learn from each other. De Maria: Totally. And that also relates back to what you were mentioning regarding diversity and inclusion not being the same thing and not being a package deal all the time. So I can definitely see that importance of inclusion, you know, even if it does lead to those difficult conversations or acknowledging some not so favorable things about our own behavior, things that we've said in the past. Blanshan: Yeah (talking over each other). Yeah. De Maria: So I, I totally get that. In shifting gears a little bit here, I do want to talk about your doctorate. As well as your 2007 dissertation in particular. So that was (a) study of the multicultural awareness of professional residence hall directors in California colleges. And in your own words, I just wanted to know what your findings were. Blanshan: Hmm. Findings were that it, the instrument was a self-support, or self-report survey. So I don't think any person who's done research would tell you what findings are without acknowledging that there are limitations to any method. I think, so within that self-report, what we got back were fairly I would say moderate to high levels of multicultural awareness. And so the notion, if you look at, you know, “Why is that important?” It's a construct by Pope and Reynolds, back in the early two thousands, of a construct of Multicultural Competence in Student Affairs (Advancing Social and Inclusion; book by Raechele L. Pope and Amy L. Reynolds). And so, Pope and Renolds talk about that being multicultural awareness, multicultural knowledge, and multicultural skills. And so that awareness, knowledge of skills has to be there. But awareness of others and awareness of myself, if that's not there, then we're kind of-then we can't get to this place of multicultural competence, which in the dissertation I really argued was an essential aspect to student affairs work because of the diversity of our student bodies. So it was a fairly, like I said moderate to high in terms of the quantitative. I think as I reflect on it, not a surprise, although you know, you never know what you, you don't know what you don't know until you learn it. I probably got just as much out of the sliver of qualitative part of that instrument of learning where people believe their awareness came from. So, was it “I lived abroad as a child.” I think that was a response. There were, and it just, the range because it showed just a different level of reflection of, “What do I think this is? And where do I think this (multicultural competency) came from in me?” I could Transcribed by Aaron Williams 9 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 rate myself highly, but someone else may not agree. Right? So, there's the opportunity for other research of validating this self-report with peer or supervisorial ratings as well. But I think asking people, “Where did that (multicultural competency) come from?” was a really interesting aspect of that. De Maria: Got it. Very, very cool. And going from there I also wanted to ask you what your relationship was like with Dr. Gregory Toya (current Associate Dean of Students at CSUSM)? In particular I want to know if-- what your involvement was in his study regarding the importance of cultural spaces on college campuses and its relationship to student retention. Blanshan: Right. You see me smiling. I have a very fond place, for Greg. He was--I started as the Associate VP (Vice President), Interim Associate VP and Dean of Students in 2006. Right about March and April of that year, and in June or July Dr. Toya joined as the Associate Dean. And so, he was just a wonderful collegial partner. And I was able to--he started his doctoral program shortly, maybe a couple of years into his time on our campus. He had come from cross-cultural center work. That was his most recent position, before coming to us (CSUSM). And one of the reasons that I was interested in Greg joining our team, and selecting him, was because of that experience. And so, to see him then study that for his dissertation made all kinds of sense in the world. And I appreciated his thought about not only the association of a Cross-Cultural Center on student retention, but I think he also looked at what are some of those aspects of leadership or leaders in Cross-Cultural Centers that contribute to that (student retention). And you know, it was again, not a surprise because one of, to hire people into student affairs work, we typically will ask them to spend better part of a day or sometimes a day and a half with us interviewing on campus. And that typically will involve presentation. And so the presentation he was asked to provide, so I'm going back to 2006 before he even started his doctorate, was to ask him to name a student development theory or framework that he felt he would rely on to do the associate dean job as it was then defined. So he was working with students through student conduct, working through students with students on, students that were considering withdrawing from the university, and some other aspects of what was happening in the Dean of Students Office at the time. And he chose actually one of my favorite frameworks too. It's by Nancy Schlosberg. And I can't spell that out loud for you today, but I can get you the citation. But Schlosberg talks about marginality and mattering, and I don't recall his dissertation well enough, but that's kind of a foundational thing of: if I believe that I matter, then I'm more likely to participate, I'm more likely to persevere when things are really difficult because I matter to the campus, or I matter to someone on campus. As opposed to: if I feel like I don't make a difference at all, and I'm kind of experiencing something from a, you know, I'm experiencing even, not that I even worse than, “I don't make a difference.” But if I'm--if I feel like I'm being marginalized on my campus, then those things are less likely to happen. Those, all those things where we ask, because we're already asking so much of a student who may experience marginalization just to come back to campus day-to-day, let alone go through things that just happen in life when a student's studying for a college degree. And so, I think I was thrilled to work with Greg as he did his doctoral program and his dissertation and remember him, his (dissertation) defense as well. It was, it was a great day. De Maria: That's awesome. And I do have a few more questions left. Blanshan: Sure. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: All relating to the Cross-Cultural Center itself. So my next question, just in general how has the Cross-Cultural Center changed over time? Blanshan: Hmm. Well I think, you know even something, it's a name but I think names are incredibly important. You know, going from Multicultural Programs to Cross-Cultural Center, I think as we started to see more, whether it be services, spaces, organizations kind of become present on campus I think it could focus more on that cross-cultural aspect as opposed to providing a home base for everyone. Not that it shouldn't still be that, I would want any student, and I'm not the only one who would want this, any student to feel comfortable going to the Cross-Cultural Center. But I think some of the work like I was mentioning before, the Activist Lab, some of the space where we really can get into those dialogues across differences and, “What the heck is a dialogue anyway and how is that different than a debate?” You know I think that's, that gives it more space, more programmatic and physical space to be able to do those things. So that's been great to see it (the Cross-Cultural Center) evolve and kind of redefine its role over the last two decades. De Maria: Absolutely. And it's also been very enjoyable for me to hear about the genesis of a lot of these programs, especially as I'm embarking on these interviews and kind of hearing about things that happened, but not necessarily knowing the beginning of that. So, it's definitely a rich history, and I'm also glad it's been around for so long. Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. De Maria: And my last few questions are about the future of the Cross-Cultural Center. But how have your experiences with (the) Cross-Cultural Center impacted you as a professional? And what kind of programs do you see yourself working on as a result of those experiences? Blanshan: You know, I think--I think for me you know, from its, even its inception, it was a kind of a sense, a place of where I could kind of recharge myself. So, because it was a space that was overtly designed for, to be welcoming of people across differences, being welcome of myriad identities. And so, you know just talking about a very personal impact to me is it's a great place to say, “okay, I may be having, maybe it's a difficult day, but you know, I can just stop in and say hello and talk with a staff member.” And especially, you know, early on. And that was, that was a highlight. Like I said, it's been enriching to, you know, years ago participate in some of the retreats or actually some of the training that was offered and partner with different people to do that. I think I still--I enjoy supporting it. I think you know for the past you know, as you think about, as I think about my role as a Title IX Coordinator, and then also someone who oversees the University's response to concerns of discrimination and harassment, I see that as just another function within our stated values to be an inclusive community. And so, it's not directly related to the Cross-Cultural Center, but I think I hold on to initiatives like the Cross-Cultural Center as those initiatives. For example, among our students where we can enable them to feel included rather than, like I was saying before, marginalized which sometimes means that they believe they've experienced discrimination or harassment. I think, so it's all that is very um, it’s just kind of all blended in there. I couldn't, in working at the CSU, so I talked about working at CSUSM and San Diego State, you know spending my entire career at the CSU isn't an accident, for me. It's very much about the mission of the system. And to me that mission has to be informed through the values of Transcribed by Aaron Williams 11 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 inclusion and equity. And so I can't imagine that--I can't imagine being fulfilled by my work if that, if I weren't able to do that. De Maria: Totally. And that's also resonating with me regarding the establishment of the Cross-Cultural Center, kind of being like a manifestation of that mission, as well as like representing future programs that the University's gonna commit to. So, (I) totally get that. Um, going forward, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of other identity-specific spaces on campus? Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. I think it, I think it's a reflection of intersectionality, in one part, right? And it's not to say that our identity centers aren't inclusive of the many identities that are represented within students who go to the Latin@/x Center, or the Black Student Center. So I think we're all, we have many intersections within our, each of us individually. But I think the Cross-Cultural Center being able to look at and potentially unpack some unique areas of historical tension, provide space for if we have student organizations existing on our campus that those communities in our world may be at conflict. How can the Cross-Cultural center help them to kind of find common purpose? Even if they're representing potentially even two warring communities somewhere in the globe. I think (the) Cross-Cultural Center, if you look at it as leadership programs continue to be built out. Whether it's a, even as you, like we talked about the Women's Leadership Symposium and that being very specifically open to everyone, regardless of how a student identifies based on their gender. So being explicitly inclusive of women, men, and all genders that with which students identify, but to understand a unique, some of the historical and then the evolving issues for leadership as informed by experience and socialization based on gender. So I think, you know, that even something that looks, or people may perceive that this is this initiative, this Women's Leadership Symposium is only for women. There is a, there's a space for everyone. And so I think whether that's, you know building on intersectionality that we understand or--and or purposely really creating experiences for cross-cultural -broadly defined -- exchange. I think, you know I think that's where it's going to continue to be essential to our campus. De Maria: Yeah. And it's very inspiring to recognize that there's still room for growth and for change in the (Cross-Cultural) Center, even though it you know has been so successful and so impactful. So obviously, you know people change (laughs), culture and societies change, methods of education change. So, it's awesome to recognize that center can coexist, but also serve a specialized purpose at the same time. Blanshan: Yeah. I think the--expanding the centers that we offer on campus helps give each center potentially a more, I don't wanna say narrow, but more clarified purpose. More focused purpose maybe. But there has to be synergy and a very purposeful, intentional collaboration. So that we can provide what we want to for our students. De Maria: Absolutely. Blanshan: At least I think what we should provide to our students. De Maria: Absolutely. On a different note, what communities do you feel are currently underrepresented on campus? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 12 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 Blanshan: I know we have conversation about an American Indian student center. I think we also are in communication about an APIDA center, Asian Pacific Islander (Desi American). So I think those are meeting needs. I think we look at, I know there was a lot of conversation that went into what the center, that into the naming of the center, which is now the Women's and Gender Equity Center. I think the importance of women being explicitly included in the name is important. I think, and I think it's also critical that it's not, I don't wanna say just, that it's not only a Women's Center, because I think we need to also be able to symbolically and programmatically represent the spectrum of gender that we should be affirming in our campus community. I think our student, our student body, our campus community is, it's a microcosm of our world. So, I think there are, could be that, and if you were to look at some of our campus climate studies, you might see that certainly we have disability support services which provide amazing services for our students with disabilities. But do, are, is there more that we could do different from DSS (Disabled Student Services)? Or more like a, whether it's a more social aspect or a sense of belonging. You know, DSS has a very specific role to play, but is there more we could be doing on our campus? I think, I think we continue to grapple, like every campus does across the nation with issues of bias, discrimination, and violence, sexual misconduct, sexual harassment. I think, and I think that's something that we need to keep our eye on in terms of our prevention and education. Those are, experiences like that are often life-changing. And so, you know how do we work our best work to prevent them? And in the event that they're not prevented, how do we make sure that our intervention and our response is as effective as it can be? So, you know I think, and I think we're and every college campus is a human institution. And humans, we’re pretty fallible. And we're it's a, like I said a microcosm of a broader, a broader environment. So, I think there are always ways that we need to be asking the question that you just asked. So who do we, who do we think is experiencing marginalization? And how do we start creating multiple approaches? Because there's, there's not just there will never be a one-size fits all approach to that dilemma. De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. And that's what leads to those kind of like, difficult, I guess you'd call 'em, conversations about— Blanshan: Absolutely. De Maria: --affecting change and doing the work, basically (De Maria laughs) in order to do that. So, thank you for sharing those thoughts with me. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: And for my final question, I wanted to ask you personally, if someone is interested in pursuing a career in student advocacy or even social justice, what recommendations or tips would you give them? Blanshan: Hmm. That's a great question. I when I think of advocacy and I think of a career in something like social justice, and not a surprise, right? We talked about my educational background. So I think of many things in terms of leadership, right? I think one of the first things to be mindful of is, and I, and this is, this is also true in that little snippet I gave you about multicultural awareness, being an awareness of others, but also awareness of self. I think leadership, especially on something such as social justice, such as advocacy, is (that) it requires a consistent intention. A consistent attention to my own motivations, how I—kind of_where are those things where I find that really feed my purpose, why I want to do this Transcribed by Aaron Williams 13 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 work, and how do I kind of refuel when I've had difficulty. But I think in leadership and in equ--diversity and equity and inclusion work, if we don't always have a mirror back on ourselves so that we could keep ourselves in check, I think it could start, we can, the impact of our work can start to go awry. And I don't know if that makes sense, but I think it's really trying to stay on, what do I think is needed to make positive change. Is this just my thought or have I consulted with others, especially those who disagree with me? To think through what--am I in a blind spot? And then to go out and do the work in a way that we can sustain the work personally and professionally. De Maria: Totally. And I think--I think it does take a community to affect that change. And going back to what you mentioned earlier about diversity versus inclusion, the marriage of those concepts, it requires us to include others and to make those decisions, not just as a sole member, but as a collective. Blanshan: Yeah. I think--I think critical friends are essential. So, yeah I, we always learn more from people who are willing to, I'll speak for myself. I always learn more from people who are willing to say, “I disagree with you, and here's why. And I think you're missing something.” Because that gets me, that stops me before I might do something that might have an impact that completely contradicts what my hope was. So. De Maria: Absolutely. Well thank you for sharing that with us, and that's gonna be the end of this interview. Bridget again, can't say enough how much I appreciate you taking time out for this. I think this is gonna be an excellent resource for anyone interested in the history of the Cross-Cultural Center or just looking for some inspiration in joining the field of student advocacy and social justice. So once again, thank you. Blanshan: Thank you, Michael. It was a pleasure. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 14 2023-11-17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Blanshan, Bridget. Interview, April 26, 2023. Description An account of the resource Bridget Blanshan is Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator at California State University San Marcos. In this interview, Blanshan discusses her educational & professional background, student leadership development, and diversity and inclusivity on campus. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bridget Blanshan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael De Maria Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-26 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs Education, Higher Human rights Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Bridget Blanshan License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brodowsky, Glen. Interview transcript, 2024-06-14 Description An account of the resource Interview discusses Brodowsky’s career at CSUSM, starting with his journey into academia and his experience during the early years of the university, the campus, his work in development of policy and initiatives, as well as marketing, including the campus logo. Interview also discusses Brodowsky’s work in service at the university, his relationship with past university presidents, intercultural and cross-cultural marketing, his approach to teaching both at CSUSM and abroad at Brodowsky’s visiting professorships, the Jewish Faculty and Staff Association and the campus Jewish community, and his past year as Faculty Senate Chair. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brodowsky, Glen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Visintainer, Sean Sheehan, Robert Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-06-14 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Administrative Building California State University San Marcos. Faculty Senate California State University San Marcos. Jewish Faculty and Staff Association California State University San Marcos. Marketing Department Cross-cultural marketing Gonzalez, Alexander Haynes, Karen S. Intercultural marketing Neufeldt, Ellen California State University San Marcos--Faculty Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Taiwan Ecuador Copenhagen (Denmark) Shanghai (China) Buffalo (N.Y.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Glen Brodowsky License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BrodowskyGlen_VisintainerSean_2024-06-14_transcript CSUSM history Jewish experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Glen Brodowsky OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BrodowskyGlen_VisintainerSean_2024-06-14.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Brodowsky, Glen. Interview June 14th, 2024. SC027-090 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm CSUSM ; marketing department ; intercultural marketing ; Alexander Gonzalez, Karen Haynes, Ellen Neufeldt ; Craven Hall/Administrative Building ; Jewish Faculty and Staff Association ; cross-cultural marketing ; Faculty Senate Glen Brodowsky Sean Visintainer Sound BrodowskyGlen_VisintainerSean_2024-06-14.m4a 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2a4f9d867903cbe2aba28d8139361fc2.m4a Other audio English 0 Intorduction Oral history interview of Dr. Glen Brodowsky, June 14th, 2024, by Sean Visintainer, Head of Special Collections, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 33 Background and Education Dr. Brodowsky discusses how his educational background including his fluency in Mandarin and how he found himself working in higher education. Chinese studies ; Higher education ; Marketing ; CSUSM ; University of Buffalo 0 203 First Impressions of Cal State San Marcos Brodowsky talks about his first impressions of CSUSM during his interview process. The campus was built on an old poultry farm and Hollandia dairy was nearby so the campus felt very rural. Prohoroff Poultry farm ; CSUSM ; Campus architecture 0 637 Designing Cal State San Marcos' Expansion Brodowsky discusses his work on the design committee for expanding CSUSM. CSUSM ; Markstein Hall ; Construction ; design ; architecture 0 1269 How CSUSM Differed from other Colleges Brodowsky talks about how Cal State San Marcos' culture and attitude towards faculty participation differed from some other, older and well established colleges. Faculty participation ; Committees ; education ; Marketing 0 1769 Changing Policies at CSUSM Brodowsky discusses his efforts at changing policies at Cal State San Marcos and the effects that those changes had on the school. Policy ; education ; CSUSM ; standards 0 2110 Living on Campus Brodowsky talks about his time living in the dorms at CSUSM while he was a full professor. Dorm life ; education ; student life ; CSUSM 0 2328 Jewish Associations on Campus Brodowsky talks about his involvement with the Jewish Faculty and Staff Association as well as other Jewish association on campus. Chabad ; Hillel ; Jewish Faculty Association ; Religion ; Outreach 0 2679 Navigating New University Administrations Brodowsky explains his thoughts on working with different University Presidents over the course of his career at CSUSM and how he navigated professional relationships with administrations, faculty, and staff. University Presidents ; Alex Gonzalex ; Karen Haynes ; Ellen Neufeldt 0 3424 Teaching Internationally Brodowsky discusses his time teaching internationally in Copenhagen, Ecuador, Shanghai, and Taiwan. Fulbright ; international teaching ; Ecuador ; Copenhagen ; Shanghai ; Taiwan 0 3919 Cross-cultural Marketing and Research Interests Brodowsky talks about his research interests in international marketing as well as his thought on how to make products successful in different cultures. Taiwan ; China ; United States ; Marketing ; Internationality 0 4912 Teaching is Performing Brodowsky discusses his career as a teacher and how he felt that teaching was his chance to express himself as a performer to get students interested in Marketing. education ; Marketing ; acting 0 Oral history Interview discusses Brodowsky’s career at CSUSM, starting with his journey into academia and his experience during the early years of the university, the campus, his work in development of policy and initiatives, as well as marketing, including the campus logo. Interview also discusses Brodowsky’s work in service at the university, his relationship with past university presidents, intercultural and cross-cultural marketing, his approach to teaching both at CSUSM and abroad at Brodowsky’s visiting professorships, the Jewish Faculty and Staff Association and the campus Jewish community, and his past year as Faculty Senate Chair. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:04.794 --> 00:00:17.635 This is Sean Visintainer with California State University San Marcos. Today is June 14th, 2024, and I'm interviewing Dr. Glen Brodowsky, professor of Marketing. Dr. Brodowsky, thank you for joining us today. 00:00:17.635 --> 00:00:19.394 It's a pleasure to be here. 00:00:19.394 --> 00:00:33.914 Well, thank you. And, I wanted to start off just talking about the university, kind of the early days when you came to the university and so I wanted to ask you about your journey into higher education, and just how you decided to become a professor. 00:00:33.914 --> 00:02:45.235 Well, I, my original plan was to--I was a,-- majored in Chinese studies and I spoke Mandarin early into my twenties, and I thought I'd have a phenomenal career in international business and then retire into higher education. Well, it didn't work out quite that way. It came out to be the reverse where I had--couldn't find a, a business career. I stayed on and did my PhD at University of Buffalo, and it was a bad market year, and there were no jobs. I didn't get a job. And then I got this phone call in the spring, well, after the market was over from then, the dean of a place called Cal State San Marcos. And I said, are you still on the record? Well, maybe, yeah, maybe. would you be able to come out for an interview next week? Let me check my calendar. Yeah, I think I could come. So I came out here on April 15th, tax day of 1996, desperate for a job but didn't wanna let on. And by the end of the day, I had the job. And so here I was coming and they were apologizing, saying, the salary is not very high. And, I said, listen, you'll pay me to come here and teach, where do I sign? and I was very, very grateful to have that opportunity, 'cause it wasn't guaranteed at that time. And, things happened during my first year. The death of my partner happened the first year. Lots of crazy stuff. Moving across country, finishing a PhD program, defending, taking care of a cancer patient, burying him all within one year. That was my first year here, but the people who were around me, in the college of business, were very, very supportive and were with me throughout that whole process. And you don't forget things like that. I mean, I don't know if I would've been treated that well anywhere else in the world. So, I was very grateful to be here, have been grateful to be here for many years, and I'm grateful that I've had 28 wonderful years here at the Cal State San Marcos. 00:02:45.235 --> 00:02:50.104 Yeah. So, you said that you were kind of headhunted, they found you and contacted you. 00:02:50.104 --> 00:03:20.794 Well, they found me, I guess my advisor sent out a bunch of letters and, and they called me and said, oh, sure. I saying, where's that? I've never heard of it. I mean, it was, who knew? But then I said, near San Diego. And I thought, well, that doesn't sound half bad, you know? 'cause 'cause I was in Buffalo at the time, and it was winter. So, it sounded very attractive. And then, so that was it. And that, the rest is, -- 28 years later here I sit on a very, very different campus than I started out on. 00:03:20.794 --> 00:03:27.715 Yeah. And I wanted to ask you about the campus, but I guess I wanted to ask you first, like, what were your first impressions when you visited for that interview? 00:03:27.715 --> 00:04:20.995 Well, they brought me in the back way of what was then Craven Hall, and now the Administrator Building. They brought me through this blue hallway, through this labyrinth. I didn't know where they were taking me into the bowels of this building. I thought, there were lots of staircases, very few buildings, or three buildings, like 10 staircases. And I thought, what is, this does not look like a college campus. What am I, what am I getting myself into? didn't seem like much, but they had this diorama and say, in 2025, this is what we're gonna look like. And we don't look quite exactly like that. But we've grown certainly to that level. So, but it seemed kind of a bit of a pipe dream at the time because it was so new and lots of dirt and lots of staircases and, and on a windy day, you can tell that we were built on a chicken ranch. 00:04:20.995 --> 00:04:23.274 Yeah. Yeah. How could you tell? 00:04:23.274 --> 00:04:26.444 Well, the wind would, carry a certain . 00:04:26.444 --> 00:04:28.285 So, so the ranch was still in existence? 00:04:28.285 --> 00:04:48.634 Very fresh, very fresh in our minds. Yeah. There was a Hollandia dairy, which was across the freeway. So, this was the country. There was nothing here. There's very, very-- that whole shopping center was--none of the apartments were there, nothing. It was just really very open. 00:04:48.634 --> 00:04:52.605 Yeah. Was how, how big was San Marcos at the time? 00:04:52.605 --> 00:05:19.105 I think it was about 40,000 people at the time. It was very small. I chose to live in San Marcos for the first, I think, until 2003. So seven years. I lived on San Marcos Boulevard. I had an apartment at the Benchmark Apartments, and then I bought my first condor across the street, which is, the ones right next to the Home Depot, which didn't exist when I got here. So, the Home Depot, that is. 00:05:19.105 --> 00:05:21.435 And I'm sure traffic wasn't as bad on San Marcos (inaudible). 00:05:21.435 --> 00:05:41.504 Well, San Marcos was, the only thing that was bad was that, that bridge getting onto the campus was only two lanes. and so it could take a good 20 minutes to get onto and off campus, even though we were small. And then it took several years to build that bridge. So it was always tricky getting onto and off of our campus. 00:05:41.504 --> 00:05:45.365 And where did you start teaching? Like what, what building were you in? 00:05:45.365 --> 00:06:02.845 Well, my office was on the second floor of what was then Craven Hall for 10 years in a windowless office across from the men's room and my first class was in, what is, I guess it's ACD on the second floor. 00:06:02.845 --> 00:06:08.884 Was the, was the College of Business, was it all located? 00:06:08.884 --> 00:06:13.475 We were all located on the second floor of Craven Hall. 00:06:13.475 --> 00:06:19.754 Okay. Interesting. Interesting. So how have you seen the campus change over the years? 00:06:19.754 --> 00:07:28.875 Well, I mean, the first thing that came up was University Hall. Which we apparently had the option on, and we passed on. And, so that came up. And then I remember saying to President Gonzalez, to whom I was a consultant on a few projects, when we built the track and field of the Mangrum track--Mrs. Mangrum, her family did that for us-- He said, we have a track. We look like a real campus now. And I said to him, Alex, build me a library, and then we can talk. Because at that time, the library was also located in Craven Hall. And that was on the third and fourth floors. And it was this black area. It was--this walls were black and there were pipes, and it was weird. We were all in that same building. It's kind of where the Cougar Central used to be the library. And then, I ran into Alex Gonzalez a number of years later at what was the new Ralph's across the way. And we were looking out across the campus, and here was Kellogg Library. And I said, Alex, you made good on the promise. you've done good. You built me a library. Now we're a real campus. 00:07:28.875 --> 00:07:29.274 Yeah. 00:07:29.274 --> 00:07:31.644 I didn't, oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. 00:07:31.644 --> 00:08:25.035 And, and really, the whole campus, really center of the campus moved here upon the opening this plaza out here, because we used to be centered at the dome. The dome was the major gathering place in the early years. This was all just, nothing. It was an empty lot. So, you saw this huge migration of the campus towards this, what is now the center of the campus, which is kind of this Kellogg terrace. And, and then later on came, the Student Union and the, the new building for SBSB and the new Science (Hall) too. that all came much later on, but the ca--and now with the housing going down the hill, it's like what used to be the center of campus is like this little outpost up there, which is the dome. Which is where the Bookstore is. But no, you don't see much going on there. 00:08:25.035 --> 00:08:29.584 Yeah. So what was, you said it was kind of the center of campus and activity. What was happening there? 00:08:29.584 --> 00:08:49.553 Well we would have lunch there. We had, we had meetings there, we had events there. the (Academic) Senate used to meet in that building. So that was kind of the building that was, the facility, and now it's kind of, it's just kind of, kind of an appendage. It, it really has lost its centrality to the campus. 00:08:49.553 --> 00:08:57.085 Yeah. Yeah. You also mentioned the University Hall. You mentioned it was passed on, and I was just curious what you meant by that. 00:08:57.085 --> 00:09:20.544 The dean at the time, who was my very, very good friend, who was a mentor of mine, who lives in Chicago as well, she's 85, and she's amazing, was the dean at the time. And she didn't really like what she saw in the plans for the building, how it was set up. So she decided that we would wait for something to come, the next building phase. So we stayed in Craven Hall until 2006. 00:09:20.544 --> 00:09:21.040 Wow. 00:09:21.040 --> 00:10:37.764 So, and we're very pleased with Markstein Hall. I think it's a great facility and, world class in terms of classrooms. I was on the, on the committee that designed the building. So I remember taking the architects around to U Hall (University Hall) and other places saying, see, this classroom, don't do this. don't set it up like this. This does not work. This is too wide and too shallow, or, and then I remember, we had all these vendors sending us chairs, and I was having a butt, testing, lab in the buildings, because I short people and tall people and fat people and thin people trying out all these different chairs to go into the different rooms in Markstein. So, there's things that I could look at that are designed into that building and--said, that was my idea to that. And it was nice. Like, we have these benches that are throughout the second and third floors, along the hallways where the students could actually sit outside the classroom while they're waiting, because when we were in the Administrative Building, there's no place for students to sit. So they'd sit on the floor, it's like, we could put a bench there. It would be kind of a nice thing. Welcoming. 00:10:37.764 --> 00:10:41.595 Yeah. How, how long was that process of, uh. 00:10:41.595 --> 00:10:42.315 The planning. 00:10:42.315 --> 00:10:46.174 The planning, and especially like the involvement of the committee with the architecture? 00:10:46.174 --> 00:11:51.205 I think we started planning probably around 2002, 2003. It was a multi-year plan, and then we planned, the office space and how we'd maximize the number of windows. And if you go into that building, you'll notice that, on--it's actually two buildings. It's a class from one, which is three stories and the office one, which is four. And the hallways are quite wide on one side, but on the office area, it's like you feel like you're inside of a train, there's narrow, narrow passageways. And that was done so that we could maximize square footage for offices and classrooms. The state allocates a certain number of square feet, no matter what you--how you use them. And so, people will sit at the halls, feel very narrow and closed in. And warren like, but that's because we've maximized the number of window offices. So, we just had to create it because you, there, there are mandates on how much space a faculty office can have and how much, classroom space has to be available relative to office space. 00:11:51.205 --> 00:12:03.065 Okay. That's really interesting. And I think it probably explains why a lot of academic buildings look the way that they do. Huh. Very interesting. Thank you. Who was involved on that, committee. 00:12:03.065 --> 00:12:50.965 At the time? This man named Russ Decker and Diane Malone. They were from, Building Planning and Design, BPD, and then the Dean, and Regina Eisenbach was on the committee, and Ben Cherry was on the committee, and a couple of other people. But that's off the top of my head--it was a real fun committee to be on. And one of the arguments is that I really want to-- I, I'm looking at these windows in your door. And I really wanted that in the building because I thought it would be nice for you to look out. And I see that most people cover those, and they don't like them. They feel it's a violation of privacy. But I just thought--I liked that idea. That was one I was shot down on. I'm still, annoyed about that because I really wanted one of those. 00:12:50.965 --> 00:13:00.924 Well, so you ran into, you ran into headwinds there. What were--you mentioned that the seat testing was one of the things that you were involved in. What were some of the other things that you had an impact on the design? 00:13:00.924 --> 00:14:41.485 You know, one of the things I hate in academic buildings, or if you go to other campuses, is students stick things on walls and it ruins the paint, and it just, it looks tacky. So, there, if you go through, Craven Hall you'll see on the doors and along the walls, there are these metal strips that you could stick some-- they just-- and, that's, that was one of those things I requested, so that you could always put signs up and take them down without any tape. And, and you can remove things easily. And also you could--so that they're all tension bars. And that's one of the things that I have, that I requested because I just don't like scotch tape on paint. It's just hard to maintain. One of the things about this campus, and I've been on many campuses in my life, it's remarkably well maintained. It doesn't look tacky. It's not, it, it's aging quite well. it's immaculate. when I bring--I oftentimes walk around--I used to always work on Saturdays and Sundays until about eight, nine years ago. I said, I've been here long enough, I could take off the weekend. But I oftentimes find myself walking around campus on Saturday or Sunday. And I'd see people around my age with a teenager and, oh, these must be parents. And I give 'em a little tour, and they always remark how clean things are and how neat things, very, very tidy place. and it, it feels very safe, and, not, not--It doesn't feel like it's been overrun by lots of students. And the parents like that. I don't know if the students like that, but I just thought as an older person's, like, you have to have respect for the property. Keep it nice. 00:14:41.485 --> 00:14:48.125 Yeah. What, so what do you think has been the reasons why it's been maintained so well, or aged well? 00:14:48.125 --> 00:15:43.754 I think maintenance is great on the campus. I think the staff keep beautifully. The gardening is incredible. The bougainvillea are there because of a man named Bernie Hinton, who is a founding faculty. And, I didn't always agree with him on things, but, when you drive up campus drive, you see those beautiful bougainvillea, it's makes a real, I mean--the buildings are large, beige, institutional buildings. There's not much you could do with them. They're not--it's just not, Louis Sullivan type of you, or, an Ivy League school campus. But the grounds are very well maintained. And, it just--it doesn't look--it looks new. It still looks new, and some would say a little bit sterile, but I like that. That's fine. It's always, in good shape. 00:15:43.754 --> 00:15:46.254 And the grounds do a lot, I think, to soften the buildings. 00:15:46.254 --> 00:16:16.000 I mean, the setting is gorgeous. I mean, you can't--it's just kind of nestled into this hill. The logo is reflective of that. I actually introduced the logo. I helped design the logo. You know, of course we've cut down some of the hills behind the campus with our mining and quarry operation. But it's just really set nicely into the hillside. And then you look at it, this magnificent vista and, the library, this eleven sided building has great views. 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:17.000 Yes. 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:18.884 Just really lovely. 00:16:18.884 --> 00:16:23.325 Yeah. could we talk about the process of designing the logo? 00:16:23.325 --> 00:18:05.000 Yeah. We had the original logo, which is kind of the keystone that you'll see right across on Science Hall One that was the original logo with a globe in it. Because that's where the-- the founder circle is there. And it's really nice. But it's kind of, it'd be great--better in Pennsylvania with a keystone type of thing. And so we wanted something a little bit softer, a little bit more evocative of the landscape. And so I was on a committee with a men named Rick Moore, who was the Director of Marketing back then. We came up with a style manual and we came up with this, logo, which looks like, the two hills, with the, with the campus nestled on it. And then people--a lot of people didn't like it 'cause if you turned it on its side, it resembled Demi Moore on the cover of Vanity Fair, when she was pregnant, and they noticed that. But I remember, I was given the honor of unveiling this to the entire campus, and I said, and here it is. And I went like this (gestures). And, then I said--and I showed you on the--on the front of my personal action file. I said, you could use it on your own file for personal promotion. And you could use it like this and that. And it was--people still remember that day when I was--I introduced the logo. And, if you still listen to the answering--then you get the, recording--"The first of a new generation of California State Universities,"--that was me as well. 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:06.000 Nice. 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:15.000 So I was on this marketing committee--little things like that,--I mean, I--I'll remember, doing that. And it's like, yeah, I did that. 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:16.000 Yeah. 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:30.265 But it--and so that logo has lasted. I mean, I think it's, we probably unveiled it around 1998. Maybe it's in need of an update, but that's the one that we have. 00:18:30.265 --> 00:18:44.194 Okay. So, I'm--I wanna circle back a little bit to you saying like that there's kind of this intersection with like the University Marketing and marketing, and then you as a Marketing professor. So were you tapped oftentimes to. 00:18:44.194 --> 00:19:06.674 Oftentimes, yes. Often there were other Marketing professors, but I was high profile and willing to do it. So I always came in--I always had something, to offer that way. And I came in for the local design. I came in for, the, I think the 10th year reunion branding that, a lot of the branding that we did on the campus I was involved in. 00:19:06.674 --> 00:19:18.894 Okay. And does that come back to--does that come back to kind of the campus being small? I hear from a lot of people. Oh, I wore many hats, so, I had to-- 00:19:18.894 --> 00:20:36.625 We did. and the thing is, I got--I talked to Alex Gonzalez once, this is how I became a consultant. I said, in this system, they're always hiring these special consultants with hundreds of thousands of dollars to do--I said, you got go down the elevator two floors. You got 10 people with PhDs in marketing. Why don't you ask us? You give me five grand, I'll do the whole thing for you. You know what I mean? And I mean, I thought, why do you have all this, all these PhDs sitting around and you're hiring these external people? This is a great way to get people to feel more ownership of the campus, because we're actually involved in building it. Well, in the early days on this campus, we had no choice. We had very few resources and, we all knew each other. We were all pretty much based in, if not Craven Hall, we had offices across the hall in, Science One. That was where the library, which was in Craven Hall. So, you couldn't help but bump into all of your colleagues. Now, there are people, I find out they've been here for, you've been here for years, I've never met you. That wouldn't have happened back then. I I saw in the archives, the original, campus directory and had like 15 phone numbers on it. 00:20:36.625 --> 00:20:37.954 Yeah. 00:20:37.954 --> 00:20:46.585 That's how small it was. I mean, that was when we were over at Cal State Jeromes (nickname for Cal State San Marcos' initial location). I didn't come then, I came in (19)96. So we already had Craven Hall. 00:20:46.585 --> 00:21:08.545 Yeah. Okay. This kind of dovetails to a line of questioning I wanted to get into. And--I--so I read a--oh, I'm sorry. I don't have any water in there for you--but, yeah. so I read a University of Buffalo Alumni profile, 00:21:08.545 --> 00:21:09.000 About where? 00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:20.005 About you. And you mentioned, that you found a much different academic experience here at CSUSM than you did at University of Buffalo or the University of Chicago. And I was just wondering if you could expand upon what the difference is were there. 00:21:20.005 --> 00:22:50.733 When we become a faculty member, as a new assistant professor, anywhere. At a campus that's been around for a hundred, two hundred years--and it's pretty well all baked in. Most of the leadership on campus, most of the committee work, most of the--most of the decision making is done by crusty old faculty who've been there for a hundred years. And you're told, go into your office, publish six articles, get tenure, and keep your mouth shut, and teach your classes. And that's it. That was not viable at a place like this. I mean, there's all hands on deck. I mean, there was two marketing professors. So we had to develop all the curriculum. So it was all--I was on a committee with, David Borsky and Jackie Fishman and Michael McDuffie. We were doing all the academic policies on the campus and approving all the curriculum. I was the assistant professors. They were also, in the first couple of years we were all, young people. That kind of work is not done by junior people on campuses. This is done by the senior people. Finally, after like, I don't know, about 15 years, this Provost said, ah, now that we've got this critical mass, we don't have to count on all the assistant professors anymore. We can have all the associates and fulls (full professors) do this. Thank you very much. Now that I still get to do it because I have to protect these other people from doing it. 00:22:50.733 --> 00:22:52.255 Yes. 00:22:52.255 --> 00:23:19.634 And it's like, I was always, pressed into service on things. And that was great for--as you could probably tell, I'm not a shy person. And I'm very--I jump in with both feet. I don't know if I would've been tolerated at other campuses with, ideas and wanting to be part of things. I think I would've been the wrong match. Because I can't keep my mouth shut. 00:23:19.634 --> 00:23:22.174 So it's a good, so it was a good environment in those days-- 00:23:22.174 --> 00:25:43.805 It was a great environment for me and when I hire people, it's like, it's still not that solidified. That there's still room to grow. And, if you think you're gonna come here and hide out for six years before we call on you to do things, you've got another thing coming. So I'm telling people in the second and third year, now it's time to step up to do this, and mentor them through the process. I'm a bad example 'cause I did too much early on. But I still think that that spirit of faculty leadership is still much a part of our DNA on this campus. Although, again, as we've gotten bigger over the years--the other thing is, there were people in those days who were the senior people when I came in, who were the-- had the Union and the this, and the faculty who were, they came here mid career, and they were probably at the time in their late thirties, early forties. And so they were the big movers and the shakers. And I thought, someday I'll be one of-- now I'm one of the old people on campus, one of the old timers. You know, how the hell did that happen? But it--and those people who I thought, how--what would the place be like when they're not here anymore? They've gone on, they've retired, they're fine, we're still fine. And it was a great lesson to me. I had given up my office to some-- a new faculty member. I went into the department chair's office and she found a personalized pen with somebody's name on it of a very dear friend of mine who had retired. She said, I don't know who this is. How do you not know who that is? She built this damn place. And I realized that someday that somebody's gonna find my name on something and they'll say, who was he? Even though it seems, I'm pretty high profile around here, but there will be people--there are people on this campus, most of the people on this campus who have never known the campus without Glen Brodowsky's name associated with it. But starting next fall, there'll be people in a post Glen Brodowsky era who won't know. And you know what? It's okay. It's okay. the campus is bigger than all of us. 00:25:43.805 --> 00:25:52.525 Yeah. Yeah. That's a really interesting sentiment. And so you feel okay about moving on, then? 00:25:52.525 --> 00:26:18.815 You have to be able to let go. One of the things I think I've been very successful in doing is hiring the next generation of faculty. I was hired by faculty who were here 30 years ago, 35 years ago. I've hired faculty that will be here 30 years from now. So I'm connected to the campus for 60 years. That's a pretty amazing thing. 00:26:18.815 --> 00:26:31.105 That is. What do you look for when you're thinking about, I don't wanna say succession planning, but when you're looking towards, bringing people in that will continue to build upon what you built? 00:26:31.105 --> 00:28:29.664 Well, first of all, I'm in the process of-- I haven't even started working at Roosevelt (University) yet, but I'm already in a hiring process for new faculty members. Because they need them. Hiring faculty is the most important thing that you can do as a faculty member. It's the most important thing. Because, it's an awful lot of work. Takes an awful lot of time. And I'm not hiring somebody who I want here for two years. I want somebody for the next 20 years . So it's, will they be happy here? Will they find that this is the right speed for them? People who are looking for a tier one, I just wanna do my research, keep my head down and do my thing and be an independent contractor. They're not gonna be happy here. People who really wanna do a lot of development into programs and initiatives and be involved, they're gonna love it. There're faculty members, they got great records, but I didn't wanna hire them 'cause I knew they'd be miserable here. And who wants to, who wants a miserable colleague? So also, it's like adopting a pet, it's a lifetime commitment. How's I see it. It's not like, oh, I'm tired of it, I'm gonna just give 'em away. No, it's a lifetime commitment and faculty are like that. And so, I've seen people who have been not happy here and they've moved on, and I thought that was the right move for them. And other people who have left and come back. And so there's a kind of a type of person I look for who's just really kind of outgoing and roll up their sleeves. And I want to develop this program and that program and have ideas. Not like, okay, which textbook am I gonna use? And to give my marching orders, and I'll just do my thing. That's not the kind of person that I think of as Cal State San Marcos type. 00:28:29.664 --> 00:28:37.835 Yeah. That makes sense to me. Knowing the faculty that I've interacted with here, it's--I think it fits it pretty well. 00:28:37.835 --> 00:28:57.815 There's someone who I'll point to who are young faculty (unintelligible). She's perfect for this place and this place is perfect for her, and she's going just be great. Because she's gonna be happy here after 20 years, you know? And, life is very short, so if you've gotta do a job, you might as well have one that you like. 00:28:57.815 --> 00:29:21.775 Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You mentioned that, you've kind of talked a lot about kind of this need almost to have folks that are, able to really dive into things. And, I'm putting words in your mouth a little bit, but be a little self-directed in the way that. 00:29:21.775 --> 00:29:22.634 Yes. Yes. Yes 00:29:22.634 --> 00:29:44.924 Yeah. And so you've talked as well about--and kind of circling back to some things that I found about you, and doing research for this interview about--you've mentioned that when you came here, everything was a new initiative, and that you were involved in policy making. and so I was curious as to what some of these changes that you helped implement and what some of the policy making that you were involved with was? 00:29:44.924 --> 00:31:37.234 My first one was a famous one. We had this system called Banner, which runs all the enrollment stuff. We had these courses and we had prerequisites. And there was no way every enforcing prerequisites. And so everything was an exception. And, I didn't take the prerequisite, I want to take the advanced course. And finally I said, can we find a way to code this in so that, they're prevented from enrolling if they don't have the prerequisite? And we found a way to do it. But I remember putting up a sign saying, as of next fall, all prerequisites will be enforced for all College of Business courses, there will be no exceptions made. Not even for you. And I got emails! I was Department Chair of the program for te-- you were preventing me from getting my education, and you're standing in my way and, you're disadvantaging me. And this is so unfair. And the bitching the and the moaning that went on for about a semester or two until the next crop of students came in. And of course you enforce prerequisite. That's how it's done here. And it became part of the culture. this is how it's done. And it was to the good-- to the--because it increases the likelihood that you'll actually pass the course if you've got the background. Yeah. So, it was, there's a lot of pushback. But then once things become normalized, then I, I learned that things will take a, a couple of cycles to kind of get the kinks out. But once it did, now we enforce prerequisites, period. I haven't had anyone in years ask me if they can come in without the prerequisites. 'cause it's just not, not even thinkable anymore. 00:31:37.234 --> 00:31:46.505 Yeah. So, the students obviously that had to adjust and some of them weren't happy about it. Did you run into any pushback from faculty or from advisors? 00:31:46.505 --> 00:33:13.000 No, they were happy with that. I mean, this is a good thing. Just every policy that we put into place over the years and hundreds of them I've seen, on the statewide level too. One of the things that faculty do is before we pass anything, we try to say, well, what about this contingency? What about that contingency? And we try to bake it all in at once. And I finally said, you know what, it's not gonna be right the first time. We're gonna come up with a what if set. We're gonna get an exception in two years, and we're gonna have to revisit the policy. Because something's gonna come up that we didn't anticipate. And it always has happened. So one of the things that I've tried to implement over the years is whenever we have a policy, we put in a clause that says, and this policy will be reviewed in three years and updated. So we'll go back and say, is there anything that we missed? Because, who could have anticipated, the internet, who could have anticipated ChatGPT. What happens to things like who owns, intellectual property in the age of Chegg and Coursera. I mean, how do we, we, the law has not caught up to the technology. So you can't make, ironclad policies. They're going to change. And so why not just build that into the system to say it's time to look at the promotion and tenure policy. 00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:14.000 Yeah. 00:33:14.000 --> 00:34:33.735 It's time to look into the--into this. And we just had a big discussion about the promotion and tenure policy this year, about people coming in with service credit and can you go out for early tenure, and how does that work? Well, we had to really think about it. And then we said, okay, we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to grandfather some people in and then move forward, because, if you're coming under one set of rules. Like, with the prerequisites, you think, well, I'm entitled to that. Well, yeah, but that's gonna, that's gonna end and we're gonna have to have some transition. You don't see that when you first start out, but you see that after 5, 10, 15, 20 years of, oh yeah, we're back to this conversation. We had this conversation 15 years ago and yeah, we knew this would come back to bite us in the ass. And sure enough, here it is, and so-- but faculty have this, well, what about this? Because faculty like to just talk about things. It's like, okay, it's not gonna be perfect. Let's send it up the food chain and see what we get and then we'll come back around the next time. Kinda like sending a paper up for review and said, when I first tried to get something published, I had no idea and I wanted it to be perfect. I said, no, you leave a little something for the reviewer to pick on this, then they'll have something to say. You know? 00:34:33.735 --> 00:34:48.094 Yeah. That's wise. And, I think it's smart, to revisit policy as well. I think that's a really good point. Just to circle back and give things in an occasional refresher and to build that process into the actual design of things. 00:34:48.094 --> 00:35:10.855 That's normal. It's normal. And it takes some of the do or die attitude away if you don't get this right. You know? We'll, it's like raising kids. It's like, assume that you need a fund for the, education, the fund for the therapy. Because you could just screw it up. So be prepared. 00:35:10.855 --> 00:35:24.614 Yep. Well, thank you. I wanted to ask you as well, kind of, kind of along those early days, in 2005, you were involved in CSUSM's. Faculty and residence program. 00:35:24.614 --> 00:35:25.139 Yeah. 00:35:25.139 --> 00:35:30.284 And so this is pretty wild. I had not encountered something exactly like this. 00:35:30.284 --> 00:35:30.295 I lived on campus. 00:35:30.295 --> 00:35:37.385 Yes. That's what I wanted to ask you about. So could you talk about the program as a whole and then why faculty members lived on campus? 00:35:37.385 --> 00:36:20.364 Yeah, they would have one university faculty living in the University Village apartments. There's an apartment there. And I had, at that time, I had an apartment, I had my condo here. And I also had met my partner. So we were down in San Diego. Then we had this apartment. I was here four or five nights a week living on campus with the students. My goal was to, have some programming for them, get to know them, maybe. I took a couple students to the symphony and to the theater. Just to kind of bring the quad down there and them up there. And then the second year, there was a wonderful woman who founded our nursing school, Judy Papenhausen. 00:36:20.364 --> 00:36:20.485 Okay 00:36:20.485 --> 00:36:21.000 She-- have you ever heard of her? 00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:22.414 I haven't. 00:36:22.414 --> 00:38:04.344 She retired from Cal State LA and in her seventies came down to Cal State San Marco to build the fa--the nursing school that she always dreamt of. And she was a kind of a tough ole gal, you know? Been around a long time. And she'd been living in a--she had like this camper that she was living in. I said, well, Judy, I said, there's a two bedroom from apartment over there. Why don't you come and shack up with me? So she moved in and we had this two bedroom apartment. And Karen Haynes was like, oh God, Glenn, and Judy are shacking up on campus. Out of wedlock and the whole thing. She's a lesbian, I'm a gay man. It was a big joke. But, and--it was an--it was a nice-- I lived on campus, you know . And, I don't think I did as much with the, as I thought I could have. I don't know. It just, I know one night that there was--they woke me up, but I came out to the hallway and my door closed behind me, and I--they put peanut butter all over the handle. I couldn't open the door. I came into the executive committee meetings. I said to Karen, I said, I don't know what's--they're putting peanut butter on my door and locking me out in the middle of the night. I said, when I went to school, we just did drugs and had sex. What's wrong with these kids? And she's like, oh God, I think people know we made a bad choice here. But it was, it was a fun thing to do and I was the second person to do it, and Scott Greenwood did it first, and I think he was probably more successful. 00:38:04.344 --> 00:38:09.387 Okay. So what was the, like, what was the goal of having the--what was the University's goal in having a professor live in the dorms? 00:38:09.387 --> 00:38:17.764 I think just to kind of join the academic and the student affairs element of it and have, have an adult presence there. 00:38:17.764 --> 00:38:22.204 And do you think it was--so you said maybe, Scott was a little more successful than you were. 00:38:22.204 --> 00:38:44.355 I think he was more involved in it. I think he was--had his wife there, and so they were like dorm parents and things like that. And, I did work a lot with the RAs now that was kind of nice. So I enjoyed it. I did it for about a year and a half, and I said, it's time for somebody else. And I think that--I don't know if anybody else did it after I did it, it was a short-lived program. 00:38:44.355 --> 00:38:47.000 Okay. Yeah. That's what I was gonna ask you was if it, if it continued on or not. 00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:48.000 Yeah, no it didn't 00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:53.525 Okay. I wanted to ask you as well about the Jewish Faculty and Staff Association. 00:38:53.525 --> 00:41:02.945 I got involved in that a couple years ago. And, the first thing I tried to do is I said, let's have, a dinner at my house. Our Friday night, which is Shabbat, I said, and I'll have a, a nice spread. Everybody will come and we'll have a social event. Well, it's too Jewish. What about people who aren't,-- it's the Jewish-- I said, it's Friday night at my house. We'll have candles and wine. That's it. People may be offended. I said, why? I mean this--the Jewish faculty here are split this. Some people are just very, very, culturally--or just they identify as Jewish, but want no part of the religion. And they're very progressive. And then there are people like me who are a little bit more conservative and are more religiously oriented. So we had our first--we raised a little bit of money over the years. We had to spend it. And I decided that I was gonna have an interfaith Passover Seder. And we did it last year. And all the faculty, they wanted this, they wanted that, anything but Jewish things, they just wanted all this political stuff. And I said, we're gonna do this. Had the meal, had the whole thing, and none of the faculty and staff showed up. This one was too busy. This one had foot surgery that--So they all want to have their input on it, but nobody wanted to do any of the work. So here I am schlepping food and cooking food and doing all this stuff. And I said, there doesn't really seem to be very much will for this to happen. but I stuck with it for two or three years and, it was the only event that we ever had was that Seder. And, the Provost was there and the Vice Presidents for all the other-- couple of faculty, a couple deans. I had seating for 50 people, 10 people showed up. We had a little circle. We had a very nice Seder. And then I was taking all this food to this homeless shelters around trying to get rid of this food, you know? At night, because, everybody was--everybody wanted to say what they wanted, but nobody was willing to do anything. 00:41:02.945 --> 00:41:06.965 Is there--so you-- there's about 50 Jewish faculty and staff on campus? 00:41:06.965 --> 00:41:11.474 I don't even think there's that much. I think there's maybe 15. It's a very small number. 00:41:11.474 --> 00:41:17.364 Yeah. Yeah. So is there, is there, other than the Jewish Faculty and Staff Association are there like--. 00:41:17.364 --> 00:42:06.675 Hillel is active now. And Chabad is active. Chabad is right here in San Marcos. And, Chabad are very, very conservative religious organization. But they are serving a purpose. The students are going there, they outreach, the students, students go there. And then they (say) we don't want Chabad here. They're too religious, but they're the ones who are serving the students. And I think they're doing a great job. And now Hillel has become much more active on campus, especially with the recent, protests. My husband as of today, is on the board of Hillel. So he's involved with that. It's a good organization. So there are not that many Jews on this campus. Maybe there's a hundred. 00:42:06.675 --> 00:42:10.144 What is the, what is the mission of Hillel? I'm not, familiar. 00:42:10.144 --> 00:42:13.224 Hillel is a Jewish student organization. 00:42:13.224 --> 00:42:15.045 Oh, okay. It's a student organization. Okay very cool. 00:42:15.045 --> 00:42:54.614 Student organization. It's, international. It's--most campuses have it. There's usually Hillel House on campus, and they have social, and they have--and also like at UCSD, they have a big facility. UCSD is a pretty rough place right now with the,with protests. And Jewish students don't feel very safe on campus. They're being harassed and so they hang out at the Hillel Center and we try to provide a safe space for them just to feel, that it's--that they're not, on display so much and they can just kind of breathe. 00:42:54.614 --> 00:42:59.735 Yeah. Those, I mean, student identity and inclusion spaces are really important for people to 00:42:59.735 --> 00:42:59.744 They're important! 00:42:59.744 --> 00:43:00.764 Get a break from the larger-- 00:43:00.764 --> 00:43:34.925 Yes. Yes. I am-- I was never into having, these--we have separate graduations for different--I am--I'm much more integrated into everything. I'm much more like one graduation. We all wear the same stupid robe in the same hat. We're all the same. So I'm not really a big proponent of these, designated spaces, but I understand their importance. And Hillel's an international organization, and they have programming and, support services for Jewish students. 00:43:34.925 --> 00:43:40.385 Has there been any talk on campus here of having like a Jewish student center or anything like that? 00:43:40.385 --> 00:43:59.775 No. It's too small. And the Hillel--Chabad house is right down the street and they open their home on Friday nights for everybody. And I think it's wonderful. They're the ones with the black hats and the wigs and the (unintelligible). You know, I went to my period of working with Chabad, I don't know if you were here-- Yes. With the shooting at Chabad. 00:43:59.775 --> 00:44:01.585 Yeah. Yeah. 00:44:01.585 --> 00:44:03.565 I was on my way there that day. 00:44:03.565 --> 00:44:03.985 Oh my gosh! 00:44:03.985 --> 00:44:39.695 When it happened. Because I was doing some work with them. So I know that rabbi quite well. Yeah. He turned out to be a convicted felon. He went to jail. And so, I went from, thinking, oh, my whole life that I was--and I was born in Crown Heights, which is where the headquarters is in Brooklyn with all the black hats. And I'm not one of those people. I always felt like, oh, I'll never be good enough to be one of those very pious Jews. And then I found out that, after that I said, well, maybe not quite up to stuff for me. Yeah. So, it was interesting. 00:44:39.695 --> 00:44:47.764 Thank you. I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the consultant to the President that you did as well. 00:44:47.764 --> 00:45:33.465 At that time, I was consulting on the logo and also the budget. There was a budget discussion and the President wanted to get the faculties feeling on budget issues. And so I did a number of focus groups with faculty about the process. This is with President Gonzalez. And basically what I found,--I said--was, that they wanted the Presidents to take a more active role. They were not trying to say don't do it. They said, we wanna see some leadership. So I sat in the President's office, says Alex they're were looking to you for leadership and direction. Don't fuck it up. 00:45:33.465 --> 00:45:43.724 So what was--so, Gonzalez was the second President after Stacey, then Karen Haynes comes in. What do you--were you here when Stacey was here? 00:45:43.724 --> 00:45:47.304 Oh yes. I remember. I remember Dr. Stacy. He just passed away. 00:45:47.304 --> 00:45:54.625 Yes. Yeah. So what do you think like the differences between them were. 00:45:54.625 --> 00:47:20.914 You know, very few people liked Alex. He was not light. And he was considered, the Chancellor's guy. He was, I remember, one of the things, he was, the interim President after Stacy, and then, Charlie Reed, who nobody liked except I liked him. Appointed him the President, and they were having the installation of the appointed no search President, which I dubbed the Coronation . So we were all going to the coronation. And that was the term that we used. That was my word 'cause I remembered that from Mr. Rogers, with the king and the queen. They had the world coronation. and I, and Alex was never quite comfortable in his own skin. He was, quite--lemme tell you a story about Alex. So, I saw him at a dinner at the Chancellor's office once. And, I said, Alex, thank you for everything he did on our campus. He left it in great shape. And Karen has taken it in a new direction. He said, yeah, but those two buildings that she opened up, I got the funding for. It's like-- I told Karen that. She said, yeah, that sounds like Alex. It's like he was not able to be gracious in terms of just, he was trying too hard. 00:47:20.914 --> 00:51:32.474 And I looked-- worked very well with him, and I liked him, and I could sit in (unintelligible). They're looking for leadership. Don't fuck it up, Alex. I said that to him. Karen was--Karen was a force of nature. She was, a huge personality. Everything with Karen was somewhat formal. Even though she was very folksy. Everything was very scripted. Everything was very planned to the letter. And then I came along and, I remember, she always had these outfits that she like, remember those? Monochromatic, one color, the earrings the dress the purse. She used to change her purse every night to match her--And she had these sea foam green shoes on and this matching two piece outfit in the same color. And she was at McMahan house. I said, Karen, I said, I have the same pair of shoes that I've been looking for, the perfect outfit, and only you could find it. And she--she had a huge personality. She was very good with the donors. Some of them. She built a lot. She was the right woman at the right time. She was very senior. She was respected at the Chancellor's office. She had a lot of gravitas. And so I think for that huge growth spurt, she was the ideal person. And I liked working with her. I remember she had this thing over at the reading room here about health--health--allied health careers, and all these people from around the county talking about Allied Health at PalomarCollege. And, not medical school, not nursing, but other things. So she asked me to give a little talk. And I said, I think that you have to start really young with students. I thought first time I played a doctor was in elementary school, So she used to use me as kind of a, an MC type of, she would never appoint me to a real position. I was--but I was like, this spice that she had it sometimes if you use it the right way and sparingly, it was the right accent piece. And we--I understood my place. She surrounded herself with, a lot of good looking young gay men. She liked that. I wasn't good looking enough that that coterie of boys that she had around her. But she liked me and she was--I liked her. I think she was a great President for the time. And Ellen Neufeldt, Boy, talk about a baptism of fire. She comes here and then we had a crisis. We had a scandal, and then boom into pandemic mode. And yet she's really come through all that. She's a very strong President. Very different style than Ellen--than Karen. Much more folksy, much more down to earth in ways. And I've worked really well with her as well. Probably worked more closely with Ellen than I did with any of them 'cause I was chair of the Senate . And I always felt, to be very accessible and very open to ideas. And so, I know if other people have other things to say, but I have--I never felt like I--like I worked for the administration. There was a time when I didn't get the Brakebill Award (Distinguished Professor Award at CSUSM) once, and my colleague got it. And Rather than be bitter, I threw a party at my house for 60 people. And I called and baked, and I invited the President and the Provost at the time. 00:51:32.474 --> 00:53:49.355 And they both came to my house. It was Karen Haynes and Emily Cutrer. And they said, this is the first time we've been invited to a faculty's home. I said, wow. That's telling. I have all these people here. I'm giving them a tour of my house, which is very dicey, you know. And, I was up in my bedroom. I said, I just wanna tell you, I don't work for you. You're not my boss. I work for the state of California and I serve the students and the taxpayers. You have a different job on that campus in that we serve different functions, but we all have the same boss. I don't work for you. And they said, we wish more faculty thought of it that way. So I never looked at them as like, that's my boss, you know? They're partners and they have a different role. They have a different perspective and a different viewpoint. Vantage point. And so I've worked with every President. I've no problem walking into the President's office or the dean's office, or the provost office is saying, we need to get this done, or this is pure bullshit, we need to fix this. And I was never afraid. And I don't know, people say, I'm privileged. I'm a white male. I could get away with that I could never do when I was a black woman. I don't, I don't know if that's a joke. I--it's just that's my style and it served me well here. And it--well, I got in trouble a couple times, but we won't talk about those But, I, think if you comment things from a--always assumed that everybody has good intentions, that even though I think what the President or the provost is doing is completely boneheaded that I--or the board of trustees god help us. They do crazy things. I think their intentions are good. Now. How we get it done may be impossible. But if you start with, I don't think that they're out to make it worse. And we all cop to that. We're all trying to make it better. We have different ideas about how to get there, but if we can always assume that we're all coming at it with positive intentions, I think that, that solves a lot of problems. 00:53:49.355 --> 00:53:53.204 Yeah. And it sounds like you've had good relationships with all of the Presidents that you worked with. 00:53:53.204 --> 00:54:09.514 All of them, I've worked with I dunno, ten deans? I could rank order them if you want, but I won't. But there've been, good ones there have been bad ones, but there's been none that I couldn't work with them. I'm gonna be myself. 00:54:09.514 --> 00:54:12.965 Yeah. 00:54:12.965 --> 00:54:13.594 I am. 00:54:13.594 --> 00:54:15.304 Yeah. Yeah. 00:54:15.304 --> 00:54:45.795 So it's been--what a ride. I mean, who gets to build a place? Who gets to sit here and look at this? Oh, yeah. Well, we did that. I remember when that wasn't there. Or, the day we opened the library, my god, Karen Hayes was standing outside the library and Alex built the library. He got credit for that, and I said to Karen, I said, you know what? This is my baby. This is my life's work right here. Take care of it. 00:54:45.795 --> 00:55:01.605 Yeah. I don't know where to, where to go with that, but it's a wonderful-- 00:55:01.605 --> 00:55:16.155 That's how I feel. I mean, I'm leaving with--I couldn't have had a better career. Could not have had a better--couldn't have planned it better. 00:55:16.155 --> 00:55:31.000 So, a lot of this that you've talked about, a lot of this, kind of need to take initiative and need to, wear many hats, really has given you a skillset now where you can go, back to Chicago and, and be a dean there. 00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:32.000 Yeah. 00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:34.894 And so in that way, it's been, it's been a really good environment for you to-- 00:55:34.894 --> 00:55:40.835 The President said that you built the campus, you know how to do that. 00:55:40.835 --> 00:57:04.000 Yeah. I've had a nice research career. I've done my research, done a lot of research. I've taught a lot I've taught all over the world, you know? One of the things I say to new faculty is, you can do great research. You can do great teaching, you can do great service. You have to do all three. You don't have to do all three every day. Every week or even every semester. There are times when you should be really focusing on your research. You got a great project, you gotta get tenure, you gotta get this done. But then, once that's done, maybe you should be developing some new curriculum or being on a committee, or, chairing a--I was in--I was president of a professional organization for a couple of years. I mean, so you do different things, at different times. And so there's always something new about the career. You know, I spent 17 years traveling around the world teaching. 14 years on statewide academic center. I published 30 articles, and then I just published two books, but I didn't do everything at the same time. You know. 00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:11.315 Let's, talk about your guest teaching. So you've taught in Taiwan multiple times. You've taught in-- 00:57:11.315 --> 00:57:13.534 I'm supposed to be there now. I had to give it up. 00:57:13.534 --> 00:57:14.454 Oh, I'm sorry. 00:57:14.454 --> 00:57:19.255 That's, that's my-- Taiwan, Copenhagen-- 00:57:19.255 --> 00:57:19.264 Ecuador. 00:57:19.264 --> 00:57:39.014 Ecuador to Shanghai. Taiwan started as a Fulbright. I looked at the Fulbright. I said, that one has my name on it. 'cause I had lived in Taiwan. I got it and I spent five months there, and I reconnected with some old friends of mine who I knew in the eighties (1980s). 00:57:39.014 --> 00:57:39.718 Nice. 00:57:39.718 --> 00:58:21.000 Who now is like, this woman is like my sister. I've known her literally for 40 years. And we've never--we don't speak any English. It's all Chinese. And they liked me, and they started inviting me back every year. So I got invited back every year through this year. I was supposed to be there now teaching, but I said, I've gotta start a dean's position. I've gotta move. I've gotta finish-- I just couldn't do. And it, 17, 18 times doing the same thing. It's--I think at a certain point it's time to say it's been terrific, but they'll move on. 00:58:21.000 --> 00:58:23.000 Yeah. 00:58:23.000 --> 00:59:36.855 But that was great. That was just like--kept up my Mandarin and I kept up my friendships and I loved Taiwan. I'm like a local there. And then somebody suggested I try Copenhagen Business School. So I applied. Got it. And there was like this group of us that would come in every summer for 10 years. We'd all fly in from all over the world. We'd hang out, rent apartments together, have parties go out to dinner. It was like summer camp. And, so I'd have everybody over and I'd cook and I'd bake and we'd travel on the weekends. It was great. And then right before COVID, I was getting a little bit tired of it. And then the guy who I used to call my summer husband, because we had--we shared an apartment. They didn't invite him back. At the last minute. They invited everybody else, and they didn't even send them a no thank you. They just didn't. And I thought that was kind of rotten. And I thought, God, if that happens to me, and it could, because I'd seen them do it. That would really ruin it for me. I would--I'd feel really awful if like, we were not invited back. 00:59:36.855 --> 00:59:36.864 Yeah. 00:59:36.864 --> 01:00:35.255 And I was only going back for the 11th year because we had the apartment. And when he got canned, a lovely man, he's at University of Oregon, one of the campuses up near Redford. Southern Oregon. I said, I don't need the apartment. I don't need to go back. I've done it 10 times. There's nothing new here. I had a new book coming out. My parents were getting older, so I said, I'm not gonna go back. And they said, oh my God, how are we gonna replace you? We-- you were a brilliant teacher, and we would love to have, but we understand that you have older parents. So I got outta that one, and COVID happened, and the whole program went online, and it's never been the same since. And the esprit de corp, is not there. Everybody's kind of on their own way. I got out at the right time. 01:00:35.255 --> 01:00:35.264 Yeah. 01:00:35.264 --> 01:00:50.073 Ecuador came to me, out of the blue. Would you like to teach a course in Ecuador in international marketing research? Sure. What the hell? I get an invitation like that. Why not? 01:00:50.073 --> 01:00:51.914 Yeah. 01:00:51.914 --> 01:01:48.335 So I went and I drove this poor woman crazy. She ran the place and she told her I was crazy until I got there. And I had a very successful course. And I got invited back four more times over the years. But the first--you never know if you're gonna get invited back. So I flew my partner down. We went to the Galápagos, whatever money I made down there, it went--yeah. I'm in South America, Ecuador, I may never be here again. Let's blow the money on the Galápagos. Fabulous. Next year. I went to the jungle. I went to the Amazon, I went to Machu Picchu, loved it. I got another sabbatical, and I applied to be at the China European International Business School, CEIBS. Shanghai, four weeks, 25 grand. The most prestigious that I could get. I hated it. They hated me. The most lucrative one didn't last. 01:01:48.335 --> 01:01:48.344 So-- 01:01:48.344 --> 01:01:50.000 So you win some, you lose some-- 01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:51.000 Yeah. 01:01:51.000 --> 01:03:31.724 But, you know, three out of four, where I was invited back multiple years and never was not invited back. I mean, it's--I was--and so that was about almost 20 years of my life where I was doing international work. Which is what I wanted to do. I had a beachhead in Asia. I had one in South America. I had one in Europe. Plus I was gonna Mexico. I was going to Germany, all that. But I mean, I was really an international lecturer all on my own. and it was great for about 17 years. And then COVID happened. I thought, I don't have to fly internationally. I did. It was great. And I made the most of it. And that was a big chapter of my life that's --it's kind of behind me. But boy, it was great. And sure. How could, how could you be somebody who teaches international marketing, cross-cultural marketing, doing it, sitting in California. So I, I did it. And I was able to do it and get away in the middle of the semester and schedule things and go away for four or five weeks at a time. They never missed me. I was, the department chair, was running meetings on Zoom at three o'clock in the morning, whatever I was doing, they let me get away with this. I can't believe it and yet, I never didn't do my job. I never--I was a reliable vote on everything and whatever. So, boy was I lucky. 01:03:31.724 --> 01:03:44.045 So what was the biggest--what was the biggest adjustment in teaching when you teach overseas as opposed to here. 01:03:44.045 --> 01:03:46.228 I do it exactly the same way. 01:03:46.228 --> 01:03:46.720 Yeah. 01:03:46.720 --> 01:04:36.625 I mean, even when I did it in Ecuador, I had a simultaneous translator who turned out to be a good buddy of mine. We've been friends for years now. we've worked on some projects together. So that was a little bit--learning to pace myself so that he was simultaneously translating. That was not that bad. I just never adjusted to the program. And in Shanghai, it just . They evaluated me after the third day, and it was not good. And it was too heterogeneous a course, class. It's just--at the time-- it just didn't work. I'm sorry, it didn't, but Taiwan was easy. Taiwan was, now during COVID, I taught in Taiwan, I had eight hour classes. 01:04:36.625 --> 01:04:37.505 Wow. 01:04:37.505 --> 01:05:19.204 00 PM in front of my computer till two, three o'clock in the morning, drinking coffee here in California. But I--I've been teaching international students since I was in college. I tell the same jokes. I'm used to a non-English speaking audience. I'm used to talking to people in a way that they can understand. I speak slowly. I give lots of examples. I've had the same response from students wherever I've gone. 01:05:19.204 --> 01:05:24.764 Could you talk about cross-cultural marketing and what--for a layman like myself, what is-- 01:05:24.764 --> 01:09:11.000 Interestingly enough, the first book I did was about cross-cultural international marketing, comparing Germany and France and France and China and all these kind of--how is marketing different? How do people consume products differently? How do they use products differently? A lot of my marketing was about time, how do people conceive of time differently in different places? And it is very different. And it feels different whether, in certain places things are very linear. You do A and then B and C and D and other places, everything's going on all at once. It doesn't make any sense. It could be very disconcerting. And so a lot of the earlier work was about comparing things on the national level . And then what I realized is that culture--countries are not cultures. Countries are multidimensional. So the second book was more about intercultural marketing, let's say taking Southern California and looking at dividing that up between the Latino culture. that if you're looking at the Asian culture in San Diego, it really is not Chinese. It's Vietnamese and Filipino. Okay. If you go to LA and San Francisco there is a Japanese culture there, you've got hip hop culture, you've got--Latino culture is not a monolith theater. You've got here. It's all Mexicans. In New York, it's Puerto Ricans and Ecuadorians and in Florida it's Cubans. They all speak Spanish, but music's different. The food's different. Some of the things are similar. I mean, it tends to be Catholic and family oriented and male dominated. There's certain kind of Latin things. But then even within that, you've got first generation Latinos who just came here, and their parents are different. They consume differently. They speak differently. They see the world differently. So the cross-cultural marketing, some of it I think of doing, in terms of, you could look at things in terms of cross-cultural differences, which are interesting, where you need to change the product or the price, or the color or whatever it is. And other things, you don't have to change everything. There's certain things that will go cross cultures. And so if you can find similarities, well, we could have one product for two groups of people. That saves us a lot of money. That's a lot more profitable. So I'm as interested in looking at cross national differences as I am looking at international differences. And even if you look at things like-- then you have segments that are--you find all over the world. So diaspora marketing. So you find Indian populations all over the world. You find, Hasidic Jews all over the world. They have more in common with one another than anyone who lives within this 400 mile radius of where they live. But that--there's similarities there. So how do we serve those communities that you--or you look at the, businessmen okay. Who are traveling through international airports. They're shopping in Sky Mall. They're buying stuff. They're buying Fendi and Courvoisier at the duty free. They're buying gifts for their wives when they're coming home. They're buying gifts for their mistresses when they're going. So there's a lot going on. And they all carry the same kind of briefcases and wear the same kind of shoes. And yet they may come from 10 different countries. And then the ultra wealthy. I mean, some of the wealthiest people in the world live in the poorest countries. They own them. 01:09:11.000 --> 01:09:13.000 Yeah. 01:09:13.000 --> 01:09:45.844 Okay. So how--so that's another segment. So you can set with market based upon wealth, and that's--that goes across countries. And then there are also things that are very national. There are things that are very American that are very different in things that are very Canadian. Believe it or not, there are differences there. Don't ever tell 'em-- a Canadian, that they're just like Americans. We're just like--Americans are just like us. We're just nicer. You know, you have to look at it from their perspective. It is a different culture. 01:09:45.844 --> 01:09:45.854 Yeah. 01:09:45.854 --> 01:11:00.375 It may be subtle. So, in my book, first book, I had a lot of the more classic, scholars from going back for the past 70 years, who've done work on international marketing, international negotiations. All these different models that we've used to try to understand these differences, none of are terribly perfect. None of 'em are perfect at all. And then the second one is says, what about the African American market? What about hiphop? Hiphop is now a multinational--it's not just an American thing, and it's not just a Black thing. It's kind of the music of the oppressed and the under classes. But then American Blacks' think it's a Black thing, but then you go around the coun--, the world. And it's like, no, there are people--there are more non-Black people who are fans of hip hop than there are Black people. But is it still a Black--isn't it our thing? When the music of the counterculture becomes the mainstream does it lose its authenticity? These are interesting questions. And that's some of the work that I do. 01:11:00.375 --> 01:11:42.324 Okay. That is really interesting. And you talked a lot about intercultural--I'm trying to wrap my head around it as I just got like a very beginner seminar in it. so you talk a lot about the kind of the intercultural, connections that you can make across cultures. I'm interested to know, I guess, how marketing--how you can look at marketing, and implement marketing across cultures when there are structures in place that maybe function very differently. Like we look at marketing, I assume, I'm making an assumption here. We look at marketing very differently than maybe somebody in, China does. 01:11:42.324 --> 01:12:07.104 Absolutely. Well, they're not--Here's one of the things that's very interesting. I'll use Taiwan as an example. Taiwan makes great products. Fabulous products. Their phones are the best phones in the world. And yet they're the shittiest marketers on Earth. They don't know how to market because they view marketing and the Chinese, to an extent do as well, as expense. 01:12:07.104 --> 01:12:07.824 Okay. 01:12:07.824 --> 01:12:16.104 Okay? Branding is not important. Branding is--it's--they--they're much more engineering driven. Okay. 01:12:16.104 --> 01:13:59.364 Whereas a company like Apple or Samsung, they make their products sexy. The HTC phone is, every bit as good, if not superior to the Samsung. But HTC is not a sexy brand. Samsung invested billions of dollars in marketing and in brand building. In making it something where I want a Samsung. The Chinese to their-- the Chinese and the Taiwanese, their mindset is a little different. It's like, we just wanna make it cheap and efficient. We wanna make our profit on having good quality and selling a lot. So they don't really have exclusive brands. Now, Huawei is doing something a little bit different. Huawei is, now you'll go around the world and you'll see Huawei in airports, and they're spending billions of dollars on marketing, and they're gonna become the next Samsung. But certainly the Japanese and the--and the Koreans are very similar 'cause they were much more export oriented. They really kind of understood that we have a small market at home and we have to make our products desirable in the West. China, not so much. They've got 1.3 billion people there. So just in terms of what they've-- Taiwanese just do not invest in marketing. They do not invest in branding. They don't care. They invest in technology. They are the world's best OEM. They will make the best components. You can't build a bicycle or a saxophone or a computer without a Taiwanese component. 01:13:59.364 --> 01:14:01.625 I'm sorry, what's an OEM? Just to clarify. 01:14:01.625 --> 01:14:04.454 Original equipment manager. So they make the components. 01:14:04.454 --> 01:14:05.574 Okay. 01:14:05.574 --> 01:14:32.494 They said, we wanna become an OBM, original brand manufacturer. Well fine invest in branding. Spend this much money on your branding as you're doing your R&D. Oh, we couldn't do that. We just want people to write--It's like. So there--and look, you need somebody who makes good components. So let's brand Taiwan as like Taiwan inside, like Intel inside. 01:14:32.494 --> 01:14:35.104 Yeah. 01:14:35.104 --> 01:14:37.164 They're not willing to spend the money. 01:14:37.164 --> 01:14:38.539 So how, as-- I mean as a marketer- 01:14:38.539 --> 01:14:39.000 Frustrating 01:14:39.000 --> 01:14:45.000 how do you market the importance of marketing to people that don't-- 01:14:45.000 --> 01:14:46.000 Very slowly. 01:14:46.000 --> 01:14:49.000 Yeah. 01:14:49.000 --> 01:15:01.989 But yeah. And look, Levi's. McDonald's. Coca-Cola. IBM, it's all branding. The products are not--I mean, nobody thinks that McDonald's is good. 01:15:01.989 --> 01:15:08.594 Yep. It's not a good product. Marlboro, if you, if you use it correctly, you will die. 01:15:08.594 --> 01:15:08.604 Yeah. 01:15:08.604 --> 01:15:16.385 But my God, the Marlboro man, everyone wants to be that rugged individual. 01:15:16.385 --> 01:15:17.284 Yeah. 01:15:17.284 --> 01:15:21.784 That's what they want to be. 01:15:21.784 --> 01:15:30.414 Yep. That's very-- that's very interesting. So, and I do wanna be mindful of your time. How are you on time? 01:15:30.414 --> 01:15:37.864 Fine. I'm just--I'm realizing that hopefully I didn't leave my wallet where I think it's. 01:15:37.864 --> 01:15:58.824 Okay. let me ask you a little bit about marketing. About-- I'm gonna ask you to forecast a little bit. Obviously we're seeing huge technological changes and we really have been since the advent of the internet. But--so I guess my first question is, how has marketing changed since, the advent of the Internet? 01:15:58.824 --> 01:18:34.000 It's completely data driven. Completely. There (is) more data than ever there's no shortage of data. We need people who could interpret data and extract information. What does it mean? What does it tell us? So there'll be jobs and data analysis. Students don't have a good grasp on that. Those who can take information and say, well, what this means is this. Not, here's this number. 30% do this, 20% do-- That's nice. But what could we say with that? What can we conclude. Those skills are, are lacking. I think, also the old kind of-- the company tells you what it wants to tell you about its products is gone. It--it's all C to C it's all consumer to consumer. It's all word of mouth. I mean, they always said word of mouth is the strongest marketing before the internet. Now it's like on steroids, because, you're gonna go to Yelp, you're gonna go to TripAdvisor. You wanna see what other travelers say, okay. You know, the commercial doesn't tell you. It's the reviews that tell you that's the first thing that you go to. So, there was a wonderful thing I heard from a person from Marriott who was sitting with me through a number of musicals. You're no longer a brand manager. You're a brand steward. You were--and you have to work with consumers. And you have to understand your customers so that they become your ambassadors. You have to create, evangelists for your brand. Who will tell their friends and rave about it. 'cause they'll also complain about it a lot more. So--and they'll destroy you. So, it's not just how do we craft a message? How do we convince people something that's-- it's not that. It's how do we get people excited about what we're doing so that they'll tell everybody else? So I think the two biggest trends are data. Data, and data and so you got Teradata down, (and) down the road, so-- and what Teradata does is it takes all these data from what you've done. So, you know how, you look at the upgrade list when you're trying to get onto the flight? It's like--and there's like--so like six seats in first class. And I'm always the seventh person so I never get the seat. Sometimes I do, but how do they figure out who gets the seat? 01:18:34.000 --> 01:18:36.000 Yeah. Yeah. 01:18:36.000 --> 01:19:12.614 You know, but there's a lot of information. How many miles do you have? How often do you fly? How many upgrades? There's a whole thing of algorithms that, that they take these enormous amounts of data that we hit--that we have about every customer. And then how do we look at it so that we could make decisions to say, well, it's not rewarding you as a customer, but rewarding the right customer. 'cause that's the customer that's going to become the sustainable customer. You know, customers are an investment. 01:19:12.614 --> 01:19:12.625 Interesting. 01:19:12.625 --> 01:20:01.000 You wanna reward those that are gonna--everybody likes to get something for free, but which one gets it for free? What benefits the company the most? Also, and that could also be where's the goodwill? I mean, how do we, how are we good corporate citizens? You can't get away with the things you've got whether 50 years ago 'cause everybody's gonna read about you. So, do we sponsor,--if we're gonna support Donald Trump, what's that gonna cost us in terms of some of our customers? So we--if we do support Donald Trump with our marketing, is it gonna get us more customers? I talk about this a lot in classes talking about politics. Please it's the biggest marketing campaign every four years as a Presidential election. Why do you vote for this guy? 01:20:01.000 --> 01:20:02.000 Yeah. 01:20:02.000 --> 01:20:18.515 And frankly, very few people are indifferent to Donald Trump. They either absolutely love him and think he's the second coming, or they think he's the devil incarnate. There's not anybody that goes, well, if we get him, it doesn't matter. 01:20:18.515 --> 01:20:19.465 Yeah. 01:20:19.465 --> 01:20:29.095 Nobody feels that strongly about Biden. I don't get the, we gotta get this guy. He's so great. 01:20:29.095 --> 01:20:32.435 So from a marketing perspective, how do you, how do you market him.? 01:20:32.435 --> 01:21:02.734 Donald Trump is a brilliant marketer. He's a brilliant marketer. He knows how to resonate with his audience to say, you have this problem. I'm gonna come in and I'm gonna fix it. I'm going to kick ass and take names. Well, some people will just say, yes, you're right. You shall lead us. And other people are shivering in their boots. But nobody's indifferent. 01:21:02.734 --> 01:21:09.314 Yeah. And then you have somebody, a candidate like Biden. How does--how do you market Biden? 01:21:09.314 --> 01:21:24.795 Well, I mean, he was marketed as kind of the anti-Trump, you know? He was calmer. He was supposed to just keep things even keeled. If it's too chaotic, here's an alternative. I'll just keep (inaudible). 01:21:24.795 --> 01:21:28.324 Yeah. So it kind of, it kind of comes back to Trump. 01:21:28.324 --> 01:21:49.114 Yeah. Exactly. But it-- you can't not talk about. I always turn on CNN, which is an anti-Trump, station, and I always count how many seconds go by before I heard the name Trump. And it's usually about six. 24 hours a day. You can't buy coverage like that. 01:21:49.114 --> 01:21:51.444 Yeah. Yeah. 01:21:51.444 --> 01:21:52.564 Yeah. 01:21:52.564 --> 01:22:02.225 Yep. I wanted to ask you a little bit about teaching and, just kind of the--kind of wrapping up-- 01:22:02.225 --> 01:22:58.505 I'm a frustrated actor, I was not good enough to be a--I love to perform. I like to be in front of a group. I like to be the center of attention. I feel like Phil Donahue or (inaudible) running around a room and getting everybody excited and talking and participating. It's the most fun I can have with all my clothes on. on the worst days of my life in my career, and those are the best teaching days. 'cause when something's really bothering me and I'm all pent up and I can walk into a room and become this other character. And everything outside melts away. And Dr. B is this much nicer version of me. Based upon my life. Not really, but, an exaggerated version of me. 01:22:58.505 --> 01:23:02.005 How is it an exaggerated version or a nicer version of you? 01:23:02.005 --> 01:24:14.604 Well, I can't say the F word as much. I don't know. It's just, I'm having fun. I'm not stuck in my own, what's-- my best days are--I've had a bad customer experience. Another comment--I would tell you everything went wrong in the store. And related to you--in real life. I just--I remember once, this is after my partner died, the first year I was teaching at UC Riverside, I taught there for a couple years as an adjunct. And I walked down into this auditorium and I'm walking down and my face is long and the weight of the world on my shoulder. I was widowed. And I turned around to the classroom and it was different. It all went away. And I was fully present in this moment. Talking about interesting stuff. 01:24:14.604 --> 01:24:15.795 Yeah. 01:24:15.795 --> 01:25:07.000 Asking them interesting questions, getting them to talk, getting them to think. Yeah. Why did they package it that way? Why did they price it that way? Why do they have that in the commercial? What are they trying to say? What's going on? What's the message? One thing, the fun thing about teaching marketing is, not everyone's gonna be an accountant. Not everybody's well you know-- not every-you can take an English class, you might not be an ex(pert), you are always gonna be a customer. You're always gonna be involved in marketing transactions. So even if you never become a marketer, okay, you are being marketed to 24 hours a day. Wouldn't you like to be a more active participant in that? Wouldn't you like to know what's going on? 01:25:07.000 --> 01:25:08.000 Yeah. 01:25:08.000 --> 01:25:11.064 I would. 01:25:11.064 --> 01:25:15.145 So you have a built-in, level of engagement then? 01:25:15.145 --> 01:26:17.664 Yes. Yes. I mean, I talk about this, I talk about toilet paper, I talk about tampons, I talk about, I talk about cars. I talk about, gas mileage and going to Costco. I had a group of students--I got to teach this group of Italian students this past semester and they'd never been to a Costco. And it was a three hour class. And I showed a video about distribution, and we talked about pizza. I said, well, it's 6:30. I got an idea. Let's take a field trip. And we all went to Costco. It's like 10 students, five Americans, five Italians. And we went around Costco and we looked at everything and I said, let's try the pizza. 'cause they're all Italians. And we got the pizza. We got them to rate pizza. But it's like, this is how--this is where people shop in America. They shop in one of 3, 4 places. They either go to Target, Walmart, Costco, or Amazon. I'd say that covers about 80% of where people shop. 01:26:17.664 --> 01:26:20.104 Yeah. 01:26:20.104 --> 01:26:32.265 And they go, this is different. The places the size of an air airport hangar, you don't have that in Italy. 01:26:32.265 --> 01:26:38.005 How has your-- has your teaching evolved over time? Have you changed your approaches or--? 01:26:38.005 --> 01:27:27.284 I use a lot more simulations. A lot more technology. I'm more comfortable letting them work in groups, especially with the long classes in Taiwan, it's eight hours. So I'll give a two hour lecture in the morning, and we'll take a break, and then maybe we will break up and do a case study. And I'll walk around to different groups, and then we'll go to lunch and they'll come back and they'll work on the simulation. So it doesn't all have to be about me. I used to think I was-- I had to be on, if it was the 90 minute class, I had to be actively engaged at teaching. And, I think I've gotten more comfortable with letting them learn. You know. 01:27:27.284 --> 01:27:38.354 Yeah. Kind of talking about students and letting them learn. Have you seen our student body evolve over time? 01:27:38.354 --> 01:28:09.175 I think post COVID, there's been some--there's been some real loss of social skills, real loss of engagement. I see that also among the faculty, people not knowing how to behave. People don't know how to engage with people anymore. I mean, I think COVID was a real eyeopener about how fragile our systems, our social systems or our educational systems, our financial systems, our logistics systems, everything broke down. 01:28:09.175 --> 01:28:11.154 Things are still breaking down. 01:28:11.154 --> 01:28:29.994 They are still not back where they were. No, they're not. When you turn off a faucet and it doesn't just come back on when you open the spigot. So, yeah. There's a lack of engagement. 01:28:29.994 --> 01:28:41.354 Yep. I just wanted to ask you about your--just to wrap up, I wanted to ask you about faculty Senate, and--so you're chair. 01:28:41.354 --> 01:30:01.015 Yes, I loved it. I was afraid. I thought, I've been asked to do it many times throughout my career, and I said, no 'cause I prefer to be on the committee, not in charge of the committee. Because he could be speak more freely, but--and I wasn't planning to do it. And I ran a couple years ago and I lost. I said, well, the hell with it. And then I was asked to do it, and I said, okay, I'll give it a shot. I promised the provost that if I got through an entire year of running the Senate with no drama in meetings, no fighting, no screaming, no-- that I got a steak dinner. And it was pretty rough year. Lots of stuff going on with GE and things like that. And we got through it and it worked. So I'm hoping I'll get a steak before I leave. I loved it. I really loved it. I also realized that, I had a really good team in place who were like, the detail people. I'm not the detail person, so I was like, I don't have to read everything. They're gonna read it and I'll find the mistakes. And I just--my job was just to--it's just to be the master of ceremonies and keep things moving. I loved it. I thought it was the easiest year of my career. 01:30:01.015 --> 01:30:01.024 Nice. 01:30:01.024 --> 01:30:16.675 And people told me, oh, it's awful. It's miserable. And why would you do this to yourself and they, you know, they said why would you do this to, it's a miserable, thankless position. And I loved it. And the people who I thought would be difficult, I found a way to work with them. 01:30:16.675 --> 01:30:21.327 Yeah. That's good. What was the maybe the biggest accomplishment of Faculty Senate this year? 01:30:21.327 --> 01:30:31.795 Getting us organized to deal with the changes to, GE. 01:30:31.795 --> 01:30:32.835 They're gonna be big. 01:30:32.835 --> 01:31:44.375 Like, and I've been (inaudible) saying this for two years and kicked and screamed--it's going to happen. It's going to happen. I know how things are. And then, no, we could push back and I say, if we had taken the time, instead of pushing back and getting organized, things would be a lot easier. But at least I got everybody's seizures on this committee for the summer. They're meeting, I was able to hand it off, to be able to leave. I mean, and I let the provost knowing and the President('s) office knew before the announcement, at least a month before. And I was determined to not leave anything half done. So getting things sewn up or ready to be passed on, I think goes back to, I could leave the College of Business 'cause I could point to a dozen faculty members that I hired that're gonna be much better at doing it than I am now, or have been. That I didn't leave a mess for anybody. I left it how I found it, but better. 01:31:44.375 --> 01:31:45.414 That's good. 01:31:45.414 --> 01:31:56.000 And that's--people are not gonna open drawers and say, oh, he left this mess. Oh my God, what I do, he's gone. You have to plan the succession. 01:31:56.000 --> 01:31:57.000 Yeah. 01:31:57.000 --> 01:31:58.795 And so there's a lot of talent around here. 01:31:58.795 --> 01:32:05.604 And you leave next week? 01:32:05.604 --> 01:32:05.614 Mm-hmm. 01:32:05.614 --> 01:32:06.283 Well, Congratulations on your new position. 01:32:06.283 --> 01:32:10.965 And may God have mercy on my soul. 01:32:10.965 --> 01:32:14.038 What are you looking forward to about it? 01:32:14.038 --> 01:32:15.131 Being in Chicago. 01:32:15.131 --> 01:32:17.036 Yeah. 01:32:17.036 --> 01:32:20.845 And walking to work. 01:32:20.845 --> 01:32:23.784 Well all right. Is there anything else that I should have asked you that I didn't? 01:32:23.784 --> 01:32:24.423 No. 01:32:24.423 --> 01:32:27.370 Alright. Well thank you Dr. Brodowsky. I appreciate it. 01:32:27.370 --> 01:32:28.255 My name is Glen. 01:32:28.255 --> 01:32:33.755 Thank you Glen. I appreciate you spending time with us today. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BrodowskyGlen_VisintainerSean_2024-06-14.xml BrodowskyGlen_VisintainerSean_2024-06-14.xml https://archivessearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brodowsky, Glen. Interview June 14th, 2024. Description An account of the resource Interview discusses Brodowsky’s career at CSUSM, starting with his journey into academia and his experience during the early years of the university, the campus, his work in development of policy and initiatives, as well as marketing, including the campus logo. Interview also discusses Brodowsky’s work in service at the university, his relationship with past university presidents, intercultural and cross-cultural marketing, his approach to teaching both at CSUSM and abroad at Brodowsky’s visiting professorships, the Jewish Faculty and Staff Association and the campus Jewish community, and his past year as Faculty Senate Chair. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-090 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Administrative Building California State University San Marcos. Faculty Senate California State University San Marcos. Jewish Faculty and Staff Association California State University San Marcos. Marketing Department Cross-cultural marketing Gonzalez, Alexander Haynes, Karen S. Intercultural marketing Neufeldt, Ellen California State University San Marcos--Faculty Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-06-14 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Glen Brodowsky Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brodowsky, Glen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Visintainer, Sean Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> CSUSM history Jewish experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2caac1a8cfc3ca29c2de994f0935e8bb.pdf 86bdb8529b42a059d7ccb366fdf0c96c PDF Text Text April 26, 2023 Transcript Suzy Karasik: Good morning. My name is Suzy Karasik. Today is November 4th and I am interviewing Carol Graham, Master Gardener, native Californian, and so much that we will learn here in part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Carol, thank you for joining me today. (coughs) Carol Graham: (nods) My pleasure. Karasik: And, um, I wanted to just say briefly how I met Carol. I’m part of the EcoFest that we had here in Encinitas a couple of weeks ago. It’s an annual event that we do to educate people to everything involved with the ecology and the environment here in the county. And Carol had an incredible display (Carol gestures with her arms to display the posterboards on a table behind her) with the Master Gardeners, which we’ve been able to set up here and hopefully make it a little bit more readable. (Carol holds up a model of a fly, with a paper flyer attached and hanging below it) And Carol, let’s just start here. As we had discussed, let’s talk a little bit about where you born and your childhood and if any of that happened to prepare you for what was to come in your most interesting life and, um, how you’ve identified yourself over the years and your relationship with the county. So, you can start there. Graham: Well, I was born in North Claremont, the city of San Diego. And my mother was a very avid fruit tree gardener. And I really benefited because when my husband and I moved up here to Encinitas over forty years ago, it’s a similar microclimate to the one I grew up in, which means the fruit trees that I enjoyed—gardening at my mother’s knees, and fell in love with certain varieties of nectarines and other delicious fruits, loquats—I could grow those same varieties here which was nice. Karasik: Yes. Graham: And it was a very pleasant community to grow up in. Karasik: If I may ask, if you don’t mind, what year were you born, or— Graham: Oh. (chuckles) 1952. Karasik: Okay. Graham: Yes. So, I just recently celebrated—not that many months ago—my 70th birthday. Karasik: Yes! So, tell us a little bit about your school and what it was like here in the North County—well, you were actually down in San Diego— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —as you were growing up. Graham: I went to elementary school and junior high in the city of San Diego. 1 �Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, my father was a career Marine. So, we had three years in Virginia, and I graduated from high school in Virginia. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And then we came back to San Diego because the house had been rented—not sold. So, we were able to come back to the same garden, the same microclimate, which was great for the garden— Karasik: Yes. Graham: —the same fruit trees waiting for us— Karasik: Yes. Graham: —the ones that we had planted earlier. So, it was a very pleasant experience, very supportive of the interests that I continue to enjoy today. Karasik: So–so you graduated from high school in–in–out east, and— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —then you came back out here. What were your–What was your initial work, and— Graham: Well, I went to S.D.S.U. and earned a bachelor’s degree in Zoology— Karasik: Mmm. Graham: —because animals have always fascinated me, and that’s not just the animals many people first think of are the gigantic giraffe and interesting hippopotamus, and rhinoceros. But I’m also fascinated by what some people will refer to as the–the bugs (holds up a stuffed toy puppet ladybug, and chuckles). So, um— Karasik: Let’s talk about the bugs a little bit. Graham: Yeah. Well, I am very pleased to educate people on—well, most people recognize this as one of their favorite bugs in the whole garden, the lady beetle. (has now put on the puppet on her right hand and is holding it up in front of her) People call it the ladybug, but it’s more scientific to call it the lady beetle. Because actually the word “bug” has a derogatory reference. It comes from old English, meaning something unpleasant (makes a face, and gestures with her left hand to indicate something scattering away). So, lady beetle is the more appropriate, better name. And it’s interesting in that its larval stage looks creepy! (holds up another stuffed animal, which appears to be a larval stage representation of the lady beetle). So— Karasik: I did not know that! Graham: —the larval stage, as I tell people, “Yes, it looks like a creepy, six-legged, micro alligator.” So, it’s very important that we reach out to the public, as Master Gardeners, and inform people “when you see this in the garden, don’t assume it’s something bad.” (she shakes 2 �the larval-stage, stuffed animal) For instance, (turns to her right and looks at the posterboard behind her, first to one with the header “IPM” then points to the board with the header “Identify”) one of the first steps of Integrated Pest Manager—which is what I.P.M. stands for— is identify friend or foe. Because if you assume this is bad (holds up the larval stage stuffed toy) and as many people have told me as they come by our Master Gardener exhibit, they had no idea it was a lady beetle larva. They thought it was something bad ‘cuz it looks creepy! You know what they had told me they had done? They sprayed it with pesticide, or they squished it, or they taught their kids to be afraid of it, which was so sad. Especially since this (shakes the larval stage toy) can not do any good if you squish it! (laughs) Um, but I admit, yes, it looks creepy. And we also educate people that not all lady beetles look like this. (Shakes her right hand which has the mature lady beetle puppet on it) Not all of them are red. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: So, we have an assortment of photos that show different colors for the different species ‘cuz it–it’s great to benefit not from just one species of lady beetle (again shakes her puppeted right hand) but several. (Turns to put both of those stuffed toys down on the bench next to her, then holds up a stuffed toy that looks like a mosquito, which has a paper flyer hanging off of it.). And on the dark side, we also need to educate people about this character. Karasik: Ugh. Graham: Now, a Master Gardener friend of mine made both this educational model (again holds up the larval stage toy) and this (holds up mosquito toy). And she made them too pretty, in a way, because this looks, actually, quite attractive. And it is the creepy mosquito! And I think we’ve all been bitten by mosquitoes. And some people don’t realize but the mosquito actually has been given the horrific title of the most deadly animal we share the planet with, because the part it plays vectoring malaria, dengue, yellow fever. Even West Nile virus killed some of our residents here in San Diego County. It was about fifteen, seventeen years ago. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, it’s true that apparently everyone who died of West Nile virus in our county had pre-existing medical conditions or they would have survived. But it’s also true some of those people could be alive today if they hadn’t been bitten by infected mosquitoes. But unfortunately, 3the mosquito larvae are not easily identifiable for people who haven’t been introduced to them. And many of our neighbors are growing mosquito larvae in their bird baths and other watercontaining items, children’s toys, and buckets in the garden. Stagnant water is where the mother mosquito likes to lay her eggs. In a few days, those eggs hatch out to larvae. And when I have displayed larvae—‘cuz sometimes I’ll deliberately grow them to have them on exhibit, and I take the lid off the jar only after I make sure they’re just in the larval stage. No adults to fly out and bite people. And I will ask people as they come to the exhibit, “Do you know what this is?” and over half the adults have no idea it’s mosquito larvae, which is very disturbing, because they’re growing them possibly in their gardens. And when they see them, they’re not motivated to dump it out, ‘cuz they don’t know what it is. 3 �Karasik: This is so important, and so, uh, (Graham puts down the mosquito toy) so–so much of it is actually unknown to the public. I’m curious, if you wanted to just kind of go through these four stages, if you will. (Carol stands up and turns toward posterboards) And then we’ll talk more about how you even became to be a Master Gardener. But I don’t want to— Graham: Okay. Karasik: —uh, (Carol sits back down again) forget to look at a little bit more of your early days— Granham: Okay. Karasik: —so we’ll come back. Graham: (she turns toward the board that reads “IPM.”) Well, the first stage in Integrated Pest Management, as I said, is Identify—(points to the posterboard reading “Identify”) friends, and admittedly some of these friends do look creepy—(points to photographs under the subheading “Friends” on that posterboard) Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —and foes. (points to, and circles with her right-hand finger, various photographs under the subheading “Foes”). And here, kind of the star of the show, (circles the middle of the board, which has a collage of photos) indeed, we recognize the adult lady beetle (points to the photo of the lady beetle). I hardly ever see the eggs (points to a photo of lady beetle eggs) and I have my head in the garden a lot, so I’m surprised I don’t see them more often. But, at certain times of the year, I’ll see the larval stage, (points to a photo of a larval lady beetle) and as I said, I’ll admit it looks creepy like a six-legged micro alligator. And the pupal stage (points to a photo of a pupa of a lady beetle). And if, ideally, people would get this in high school or junior high school biology, it would be so helpful for the public health of our communities. And then of course you move on (stands up and points to the posterboard with the subheading “Understand”) to understand relationships, like the sooty mold, which is this black powdery (points to a photo of leaves with black mold on it) material you frequently find on some infected leaves (reads the text above the photos, indicating it with her left hand)—“grows on the honeydew, produced by sucking insects.” So, unfortunately, it’s not uncommon to have aphids or mealybugs or whiteflies or scale. And what goes in one end to their body as food—‘cuz they puncture the tender leaves and they’re sucking the sap—comes out the other end of their body, and instead of calling it like “aphid poop” it's called “honeydew.” Karasik: (chuckles) Graham: And this honeydew is a rich source of food for the growth, unfortunately, of ants which will protect these bad guys and sooty mold to grow. And here (points to a photo of ants) we see the ants will actually chase away the good guys who would eat some of these bad guys. But the ants are kind of protecting the bad guys because they’re eating— Karasik: That’s their sustenance. 4 �Graham: —the honeydew. Yeah. It’s kind of like we— Karasik: Yeah. Graham: —protect our dairy cattle from predators who might eat them, because we want to milk them and benefit from them. Karasik: Right, right. Graham: (then points to the text toward the bottom with her left hand) And understanding leads to multiple control approaches—biological, cultural, chemical, physical. There’s quite a diversity there. (She then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Assess,” points to the text with her left hand, and reads) And assess. Butterflies and moths are pollinators. Butterfly and moth larvae are consumers. Well, some bugs, I say they’re like children. They don’t always behave. They do some good and some bad (chuckles). And you have to kind of evaluate how it interacts in your garden. (points directly to the camera and whispers “The screen went dark. Is that a problem? Appears to wait for answer, and then says “okay,” and continues) You have to assess how they interact (using her left hand, she circles above a diagram showing the cycle of interaction of insects) in your garden, whether the bit of bad they do is less than the good they do. So, you can label them a good or a bad. Um, and of course, the green fruit beetle (points to the bottom of the board, to a photo of a beetle). Well, some people label it a pest, because it will attack, damage overripe soft fruits—peach, nectarines, plums, apricot—‘cuz it’s drawn to the fragrance. But, the grub, which admittedly looks creepy, is a fantastic decomposer. And it’s in all our compost piles, helping break things down. And it has a strict diet of eating rotting organic matter only. Although, it does look similar to the June Beetle grubs which eat live plant roots and tubers and corms. So, I try and teach people how to tell the difference— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: (then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Control” and points to a pyramid illustration) —and then the control aspects, from cultural which is considered benign approach; mechanical and physical—I mean, just physically pulling (with her left hand, mimics pulling off the insects from the photos on the “Assess” posterboard) the snails off your plants; biological—reloos–reducing–releasing—excuse me—lady beetles, or recognizing the lady beetle larvae that you do have so you don’t accidentally spray it with pesticide; to chemical (points to the top of the pyramid on “Control” posterboard). And all these different approaches are out there (waves her left hand above the pyramid) and they should be assessed and see how they fit into your garden. So, I think that (waves her left hand in front of all four posterboards, indicating totality) kind of reviews them all. Karasik: Pretty much covers that. Before we go back to your childhood, I’m going to pause here just for a minute (Graham sits back down and nods) Karasik: Okay, Carol. I think probably one of the most important aspects of this beautiful background that you chose to bring is the chemical aspect of the pest management. (Carol points to the pyramid on the “Control” posterboard) So, let’s talk a little bit about that and the toxicity because I’m thinking that our descendants that may be watching this oral history in the years to 5 �come will know a whole lot–a lot more about what would have been a more wise pest management than we do now. Graham: (again pointing at the posterboard) Well, the chemical aspect is considered the most toxic, and we want you to try the cultural, physical, and biological approaches first. And under the chemical (reads the text on the posterboard, which I’ve designated in quotations) “Use only in combination with the other controls.” It’s not like you have to use only these or only the chemical. You can use them together. And hopefully you won’t even have to go to the chemicals. Hopefully, you can control it by the other approaches. “Use a pest–pest specific non-broad-spectrum pesticide.” In other words, if you do feel you have to use a chemical pesticide, don’t spray the whole garden, and make sure that before you buy any pesticide you carefully read the container and that it mentions the specific pest you’re trying to address, ‘cuz there are pesticides out there that would be totally wasted if you bought this pesticide and it didn’t apply to this pest that you were trying to control. Karasik: Right. Graham: And yet you introduce something toxic into the environment unnecessarily—very undesirable, of course. “Select the least toxic pesticide to reduce potential risks. Always read and follow directions on the pesticide label. It’s the law.” And as I tell people, well, the first thing you read before you buy any pesticide is will it address your target, you also want to make sure is it okay to put on the plant you want to put it on, ‘cuz many of us are growing edibles, and some of the pesticides like insecticidal soap are okay to put on edibles—fruits and vegetables—and will mention that on the paper. Whereas there are other pesticides that you definitely wouldn’t want to put on your edibles, ‘cuz they can get soaked into the plant, and you wouldn’t want to be eating them when you’re eating the produce from that plant. Karasik: Right. I–I was curious if you feel that very many people are actually aware, for example, of the dangers of glyphosate and how that has pretty much penetrated the entire planet. And I’m wondering in the future, um, you know, what will–what will become of that. Do you try to educate specifically on that or does that bother you that it’s still sold and advertised and is just so deadly? Graham: Well, mostly, we’re not targeting any one pesticide. We want people to open their minds to p–basically trying chemical, physical, and biological approaches before they’d even consider the pesticide. So, we spend most of our time—if we can teach them about biological control, physical control, or cultural control, hopefully they’ll never even have to get to the point where they’re considering a chemical pesticide. Karasik: Right. Right. And when you–you go into schools and tell me a little bit about who–who all is your audience. Obviously, festivals like we had— Graham: Oh, the Encinitas EcoFest was very nice— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —attended. And, of course, we do have many Master Gardeners helping in school gardens. And of course, when you’re talking to the students and their supervisors—the teachers, 6 �the staff, chaperones, and parents—about how to properly grow this product that they’re going to pick from the garden and eat, you definitely want to mention that “okay, we’re not going to put this pesticide on here because we don’t have any pests on this. Isn’t it great?” That kind of thing. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Or “oh, we do have pests. We have snails, sliming up the trunk of our citrus tree.” But instead of using a pesticide, we can teach them, of course, much simpler approach, just pick it off. Karasik: How–huh–who knew! Graham: Or we can use a copper band, because snails don’t actually like to slime over copper. It tastes bad for them. So, if we teach them that, we are hopefully enlightening them so when they actually grow to adulthood and have their own yards and their own gardens, they will not first grab the chemical control approach. Karasik: Oh, uh, that’s really great. Well, let’s talk a little bit about, I think maybe, how your life tha–developed, how you met your husband. Graham: Okay. Karasik: And, um, let’s–let’s hear about that. Graham: Well, I was attending San Diego State University, working on my Bachelor of Science in Zoology degree, and my husband, actually, had graduated from there and he was the teaching aide for the lab class in one of the biology classes. So, that’s how I met him, which is interesting. He was in marine biology which was kind of far away from my backyard biology, but still a biologist. And within a year of completing my degree, we were both working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One, in that the Nuclear Generating Station would shut down, I believe it was like every eight weeks, and they would heat-treat and chemical-treat the water intake system, because they had a large pipe—I think it was, like, twelve-foot diameter or something—and it was sucking in ocean water which was cooling some of the rest of the system at the nuclear power plant. But you’re sucking in water from the ocean, so you’re sucking in barnacles and polychaetas and other biophaline. They settle on the pipe and they grow. And this of course not only reduces the diameter of the water intake flow, but also when you’re treating, you might end up with some of these clogs of biophaline getting sucked in and causing problems. So, every, I think it was eight weeks, but don’t quote me on that, I think they were shutting the plant down to chemically treat and heat treat to kill the biophaline so it didn’t keep growing. Unfortunately, every time they shut the plant down, I believe I was told it was $10,000 more an hour for the energy company to buy energy to supply us than it was making the energy at San Onofre. And people really didn’t relate to this because they’d flip the lights on and the switch would come on because the power company was being responsible and making sure the power was there, even though it was costing more. But people were, of course, ending up having to pay a bit more, because it was more expensive when it was shut down. Now, as a biologist, it seemed pretty obvious that in the cold of the winter, the biophaline wasn’t growing as fast. And why were we shutting down the power plant every eight weeks, year-round, regardless of the time of the year. So, on site, I like to joke, I was basically locked into this research trailer, and I was measuring 7 �the biophaline on these research plates, so identifying which quadrat on which plate, and what was the diameter of that barnacle, and this polychaete, and that barnacle. And we measured them, for a year, and we were able to show people the hard scientific evidence that things were growing slower in the cold winter waters. And they didn’t have to shut the plant down as often. So, in the end, after we generated–processed all the data, etc., indeed they considered this quite a successful study. So, they weren’t shutting the plant down every week–eight weeks in the winter, because they realized things weren’t growing as fast, as far as the biophaline. So, everybody in the long run saved money, even the cost of the research, which seemed quite expensive at the time although now that the quanti–the money for that research project doesn’t seem quite as expensive as it was decades ago. But they more than saved, because of the change they could do in running the plant. Karasik: I’m curious, too, because you didn’t have computers back then. Or did you have s— Graham: It was much slower. Karasik: Yeah. You did have some large, like, big equipment that did do some processing. Graham: I’ve talked about after the year of being locked into the research trailer on site of San Onofre, I was locked for a year (chuckles) into the office to transfer the data. Whereas, if we’d had more sophisticated computers back then, it would have been much faster. Karasik: Right. Now, where was your husband working at the–at San Onofre. Graham: Well, he was the lead investigator, so we were locked into the same trailer. Karasik: Oh, that was nice! (chuckles) Graham: Yes. Karasik: I’m curi— Graham: There were three of us in the trailer. Karasik: Right. I’m curious, too, because I think it’s important from a–a women’s perspective. Did you feel any sense of a gender discrimination, or were women respected? Graham: No. I was given full respect. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, because it didn’t matter what my gender was. I was still going to be locked into that research trailer. ‘Cuz it’s–it was San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station. So, basically, you went to the main entrance. You were evaluated, basically. They also threw the dice and every three or four or six people would be body-searched, (chuckles) physically patted down— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —going in. And this was before we really thought of terrorist activities much. And then we had to walk directly to the research trailer. And even at lunch we didn’t leave the research 8 �trailer. We would bring our lunches in and stay in that trailer until the end of the day, research day. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And we walked right out. But I never felt— Karasik: And was your pay equal? Graham: Yes. Mm-hmm. Karasik: Oh, that’s—I’m really happy to hear that. Graham: I mean, not necessarily equal to my husband, because he was the lead investigator. Karasik: Correct. Graham: But equal to the other party, who happened to be a guy, in the research trailer doing the same work I was doing. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Well, I’m glad to hear that. And it must have also really been nice to work with your husband and be able to share your knowledge and excitement about the job. That must have been–been really great. Graham: Well, he was a marine biologist, so he was quite into it. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, I wasn’t as into the organisms, because I was more terrestrial biologist, of course. Karasik: Right. Graham: Backyard gardening, etc. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: But I did appreciate the fact that this was a–basically a clean form of energy, compared to burning coal. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And, um— Karasik: And how do you feel about that now? Not that we have to go into a huge nuclear discussion. Graham: Well, now it’s shut down. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And of course, the–the complication is dealing with the remnants, the radioactive remnants. Karasik: Yes. 9 �Graham: And I’d like to see the country go more and more into clean energy—but nuclear was considered clean— Karasik: Right. Graham: —and weed ourself away from the energy sources that are not considered good for the environment. Karasik: You know, that reminds me. At the EcoFest, there was another booth that passed out quite a bit of information about the San Onofre situation and what we need to know as far as how close some of those storage tanks are to water sources and other things like that. Do you—is that a concern for you at all? Or do you think the public is aware of that? Graham: I think they’re doing a good job dealing with that. I would eventually like to see that material moved. For decades now, they’ve talked about moving it to a—I’ve forgotten the exact location. Karasik: There’s a place in Nevada, I know. Graham: Yeah. I don’t know exactly where in Nevada, but— Karasik: And then, of course, there’s the NIMBY—Not In My Backyard. Graham: Yes. Karasik: And then the people in Nevada were like “Well, you know, we don’t want it here.” So, I think this is an interesting discussion that in decades to come when people come back and look at this and will see what–what’s been done that’s much more safe, and–and won’t that–won’t that be great, hopefully. Graham: But, I’m sure glad we weren’t burning more— Karasik: Yes. Graham: —coal at the time to generate that energy— Karasik: Exactly. Graham: —when we were using. Karasik: And that–and that’s still an issue. So, then, tell me a little bit about either how San Onofre ended. You had a–a–I know you have one son that you had mentioned to me. So, tell me a little bit about your family and tell me about your–your parents and your husband’s parents, and where they came from and, you know, how your lives developed here in North County. Graham: Oh. Well, my husband and I moved to Encinitas over forty years ago. And, because it was relatively close to where the Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility was, where I was staying in the office for a year and processing the data from San Onofre. And my parents still lived in San Diego and my in-laws also lived in San Diego. So, it was smart to live on the Encinitas, south of where we went to work, because that was closer to go and visit them, which 10 �we frequently did. And my son—the family joke is “What does the only child of two biologists go into study-wise and stay in science, but get as far away philosophically and geographically from any of the biological studies as possible?” Astrophysics! (chuckles) So he got his–actually, his PhD finally. He started with his bachelor’s at Berkeley, and then wan–went to on get his Ph.D. at a–a—what is that, in Maryland, the institution?— Karasik: In Annapolis, or?— Graham: People think first of the medical aspect. Karasik: Right. Mm, we’ll come back to that. Graham: He’s going to criticize me for not remembering where he got his PhD. Karasik: Mmm. Graham: Anyway. And he had some research in astrophysics. Karasik: Not John Hopkins? [sic] Graham: John Hopkins, [sic] yes. I’m sorry. Karasik: Johns Hopkins. Okay, great. Graham: I’m going to have to apologize for a minute, not remembering, John Hopkins. [sic] Karasik: That’s alright. Yeah. Graham: He got his PhD at John Hopkins. [sic] Yes. Karasik: Yes. Prestigious. Yes. Graham: Yes. Karasik: So, you had just the one son? Graham: Just the one son. Karasik: Okay. So, tell me a little bit about where your parents came from, um, you know, what generation you are. Did they come directly to California? Do you know? ‘Cuz a lot of us don’t really know where our ancestors came from, other than immediate. How much do you know about both yours and your husband’s? Graham: Okay, my mother was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota. My father was born in Ohio. Now, I believe, possibly, the previous generation had come from Ireland and England and Germany. My in-laws, my mother-in-law was born in, I think, Kansas City, Missouri, which is, you know, Kansas City but it’s in Missouri, but I guess it’s a city that’s— Karasik: They’re sister cities on the border. Graham: Yes. Right across the river from each other. Karasik: Mm-hmm. 11 �Graham: And my father-in-law was born in Kirkcaldy, Scotland. Karasik: Mmm! So he immigrated here and— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —with his wife? Do you know? Graham: No. Karasik: Or did he meet her here? Graham: He married her here. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Yes. Karasik: And then I guess they all decided to come out to California? Do you know anything about that journey? Graham: Um, my father-in-law was working, I believe, in the aircraft industry, which was quite active at one time in San Diego. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Manufacturing. And my father was a career Marine, and was stationed out here at Camp Pendleton and— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —some other facilities in southern California. Karasik: There’s a lot of history from Camp Pendleton that will be in our Oral History. Graham: Oh! Good. Karasik: Yeah. So, I guess probably, let’s switch then a little bit. When we look at your life’s work, uh, did–did you want to say more about after you didn’t work for San Onofre anymore, did you get more involved tha—How did you get involved with the Master Gardeners? Let’s go there. Graham: Oh, well, um, we had my son. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And my neighbors warned me that, “If you’re looking for infant childcare, you can’t depend on the local teenagers, if you want to do a routine.” And I wanted to apply to Master Gardeners, which was going to be, I think, seventeen consecutive Tuesdays, and you were expected to attend every one, ideally. And I was wondering, “Okay.” So I asked my mother, “I would like to go through this Master Gardener program which is put on through the University of California Cooperative Extension and become a Master Gardener volunteer, which is dedicated 12 �to disseminating information for a successful and environmentally responsible home gardening. But your infant grandson would need care every Tuesday for like seventeen consecutive Tuesdays.” And she said yes. So, I’m very beholden to my mother because— Karasik: Thank you, mother! Graham: Yes. Karasik: Yes. Graham: Because otherwise I’m not sure where I could have dropped him off for just— Karasik: Right. And what year would that have been? Graham: He was born in 1982. Karasik: Mmm, so you had— Graham: Then it was in 1983 that I started the Master Gardener program. Karasik: Oh. Wonderful. Graham: He was just a year old. Karasik: Okay. So, how would you say that work has changed over the years for you, and just tell me more about—I–I–I think, in these interviews we want genera–future generations that come back and watch this and want to learn about the community and how the peoples lives were affected (Carol points to something off camera), what you’d—(Carol looks again off camera and starts to chuckle) what you would want them to know. Graham: Well, Encinitas is a great community to live in. The microclimate is fantastic for people who like to grow a diversity of fruit. Although before you grow any fruit trees, no matter where you’re living, always check that the microclimate is adapted. I frequently, at the Master Gardener exhibit, drag out the Sunset Western Garden book and ask people, “Do you have this?” And if you don’t, you can check it out at any good library and tell them that this book divides the western portion of the United States into twenty-four different micro zones. And I open the map and we can usually identify where they’re living, and at least before they go away, I can tell them, “Oh, you open up Sunset Garden book, and you want to look at what apple varieties grow in your microclimate, look for this number on the microclimate.” Because, unfortunately, as a Master Gardener I’ve had people tell me they have purchased certain fruit trees, certain varieties, and I ask, “Oh, where are you gardening?” And I have to tell them, “That variety is not adapted to your microclimate. It’s not going to thrive.” And I even had a personal situation. Years ago, there was a new variety of—I’ve forgotten whether it was, um, a peach or a nectarine—and it came out—it was supposed to be okay for zone 24, close to the coast in southern California. And the next year, after I’d bought it that year, the next year they said “Sorry. We made a mistake. It’s further inland that it’s adapted to.” So, I dug up the tree, had a fellow Master Gardener who lived further inland and said “Would you like 13 �this tree? Because I bought this under the belief that it was going to thrive, and now they’ve changed what they’ve recommended.” Karasik: Right. Graham: So, it is critical to do your research first to be successful in gardening. And we don’t want you wasting water, putting water on varieties of plants that are not adapted to your microclimate, whether it’s fruit trees or just ornamentals. Karasik: That is so important. So— Graham: Especially with water being super critical now. Karasik: Absolutely, which will be another interesting aspect to look at when future generations, uh—what that’s going to be like. Do you—So, was your husband involved in the Master Gardeners too? Or then did you—you didn’t work, uh, when you had your son. Graham: Right. Karasik: And then what–what did he do? (Carol looks puzzled at the question) What was his work? Did he st— Graham: My–my husband’s work? Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Well, he continued to work for the Lockheed Marine Biological Research. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, now he wasn’t involved directly in Master Gardeners, but I must say that, uh, there were frequently times when I would have a long day at a Master Gardener exhibit, um, like you experienced at the Encinitas EcoFest recently, and I’d be driving home and very often he had the garage door open for me, ‘cuz I had told him when I went off, I hoped to be back in this time period, and the garage door was opened. I could drive right in. And he was a great cook, so it was wonderful because there was dinner waiting for me all ready and he really spoiled me. (chuckles) So— Karasik: That’s so wonderful. Graham: —not directly in Master Gardeners but he did support me to a high degree in Master Gardener. Karasik: Yeah. Behind ever—huh—there’s a saying: “Behind every great man is an exhausted woman.” (both she and Carol chuckle) Graham: Right. 14 �Karasik: And so I think we could probably— Graham: (nodding her head) Yes. Karasik: —turn that around. Um, what would you say some–are some of your greatest accompish–accomplishments in your life? Graham: Well, reaching out to so many people at Master Gardeners has made me really feel good in that, as I say, I want people, ideally, to have at least a little bit of a–an edible garden. So when their kids come around and the kids have the opportunity as young gardeners to pick that lovely tomato or bell pepper (gestures as if picking something with her right hand) or maybe it’s a fruit—a peach or nectarine—and eat it and say, “Mmm, really good,” that they directly understand where their food comes from. Karasik: (whispers) Yes. Graham: Because, while some of our food comes from the ocean and the rivers and the lakes, so much of it comes from the good earth. And children who grow up picking the stuff from their garden, I think, are going to realize that and makes a connection and be far less apt to pollute or litter. ‘Cuz they understand why would you want to put pollution or litter on the ground. That’s where your food comes from! Karasik: Exactly. Do you feel like you’ve been successful in educating hopefully thousands of people, because there is a lot of concern now about our food sources? And I myself just recently got a tower garden because I want to be able to grow my own food and it seems like we might be moving more to that. Um, you know, I don’t know if we want to get into it, but we may just want to mention because of the—being a–a–an oral history, you know, monocropping and how all the large corporations have taken over the farming. And so is this—Do you feel like you’ve had a little place in there where you’ve been able to— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —educate. Graham: And also sharing with people the experience. Well, there are some peaches and nectarines I’ve enjoyed purchasing in the market, but none of them have the fantastic flavor that my mother and I used to grow and the Panamint nectarine—that’s the one we really adore. And some people love the Babcock peach, but that’s sweet-on-sweet. And my personal taste buds like the sweet with tang, which the Panamint lives up to. So, you can customize better your favorites by growing them. And of course, the macadamia! Well, the macadamia nut—what is that— $12.99 to $19.99 a pound for the nuts in the market when you buy them. Well, you can grow them yourself. They’re easy to grow, although heads up! (points her left pointer finger into the air). I want to alert everybody. They are really a lot of work to crack, even if you buy the specific macadamia cracker which I bought. But so I try to educate people as to this and— Karasik: Mm-hmm. 15 �Graham: ‘Cuz the macadamia tree was my husband’s, um—I don’t know if it was his birthday, or his Christmas present the first year after we moved in. He wanted a macadamia. Karasik: Nice. Well, I’m definitely going to be coming to you, because even me being over in the far east side of North County, that is going to be different. And I’m very excited to learn more about what you think would be best for me to plant, primarily just for me to consume. Graham: Mm-hmm. Good. Karasik: That’s my—And also, did you want to talk a little bit about all the different flowers that are edibles that people don’t know about, different fl–like nasturtians [sic], for example. Graham: I’m really not educated on that aspect. My mother wasn’t into edible flowers, and I haven’t gone into it because I’ve been so enamored of the–the fruits, mais–mostly tree fruits. Karasik: Sure, yeah. Pe— Graham: And–and thornless blackberries! Karasik: Oh! Graham: Yes, ‘cuz I grew up with the Olallie blackberry which mother had which was delicious but boy does that have thorns! (holds up both her hands, fingers spread wide to emphasize prickliness of thorns) Karasik: Really! Graham: Decades of research and now we have thornless varieties out there. Karasik: Oh, I didn’t know that! Graham: So, yes. Triple crown. Karasik: It’ll–it’ll be really interesting for botanists, for example, who might be–get to hear these–this interview, in particular, and see how things have changed. I mean, there is certainly the concern that California may become a desert. And we do definitely have water issues right now. Does that, uh, take up some of your time of concern? Graham: It is concerning. However, I tell people, “Well, um, hopefully when we get off this third year of really severe drought here in San Diego County and people actually start to feel they can put plants in the ground again, well, instead of putting ornamentals, why not put some edibles? Wouldn’t that be a better use of the water?” And as I said you can also customize, so you can put your–your edible in the variety that you couldn’t even find in the market. Karasik: Right. Like sunchokes, Jerusalem artichokes. Those are hard to find, and very nutritious— Graham: Yeah. Karasik: —for example. Well, we could certainly talk about gardening (both Graham and Karasik chuckle). And that’s–and that was a lot of my reason for wanting to interview you, 16 �because I think this will be very interesting to, um, our descendants. I guess, uh, if there’s anymore that you’d like to tell about what you–what like what changes you would like to see for future generations, and if you had a chance to talk to some of these future generations, not just around Master Gardening but just about life in general and what you’ve learned over the years, what–what you think is most important that, uh— Graham: Well, continuing on some of the issues that we mentioned—less lawn, and more drought tolerant or edibles. Um, now there are some people who have a legitimate desire to have a lawn. They have young kids who do want to play on it. But that doesn’t mean they have to have a lawn both front and the back. And, um, after a certain length of time, maybe they want to take the lawn out because their kids are no longer playing on it— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And cracking open the reference books, even good old Sunset Western Garden book. And it has a plant finder section. And one of the things that it addresses there are low water use plants. Karasik: Drought tolerant. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Yes. Graham: As well as delving through the various edibles— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —making sure you select the right variety for your microclimate, so you’re successful and don’t waste water on a variety that was doomed from the start. Karasik: Yeah. Hmm, well, we’ve just covered that so well. I think, more than—it sounds like you’ve had a wonderful life and, of course, everything’s not perfect. There is a question here. What are your regrets? Or what would you do over if you could. Did you want to speak to that by chance? Or— Graham: Well, I regret my husband passed away. My husband died. Karasik: Yes. If you want to— Graham: And I didn’t appreciate enough all the great cooking he used to do. Um, so now I’m spending a whole lot more time from going to the grocery store and buying the food and prepping the food and thinking ahead, “Okay, I have this many drumsticks. Am I going to eat chicken this many nights, or am I going to eat some of this, and what’s in the freezer, and how much time it takes.” ‘Cuz I’ve a terribly neglected yard. But I am enjoying the social aspect of going out for Master Gardener exhibits. Karasik: Yes. Graham: Especially since my husband is gone now. 17 �Karasik: Right. Graham: So— Karasik: And it hasn’t been that long, so—I know that, um, my condolences and I know how that is. We–we all have to accept that part of life. And— Graham: Mm-hmm. I’m grateful that he did have a good quality of life up until the very end. Karasik: Yes. And I think, too, that again that’s a lot why this oral history project is so important. Because we don’t realize what interesting lives people have had. And it doesn’t get documented. So, we certainly have more time. Um, here’s a couple of questions here around community that might–might be interesting. It says “In what w–ways is your neighborhood special or has it been unique or what are some of the favorite places in your community, and how has–how has this area changed since you moved here? And that’s— Graham: Yeah. Karasik: ―a big one. Graham: When my husband and I first moved here, we didn’t even buy groceries in Encinitas because there were very few grocery stores, you know. This was over forty-five years ago. And there was a grocery store we’d go right past when we were leaving that place of work. So, it made more sense to stop there, but it wasn’t in Encinitas. And of course, I like to spend my consumer dollars in my own community. And now we have over ten grocery stores!! I mean, in an hour—excuse me, in a mile and a half, I can walk to four different grocery stores in my community. And frequently I am walking because it’s checking off my exercise for the day and checking off my eco-point for the day, ‘cuz I’m not driving my vehicle, um, and I enjoy it! And Encinitas allows me to do this because of all the grocery stores they have, which forty-five years ago— Karasik: And they’re some of the finest–some of the finest grocery stores. Graham: Nice diversity. Karasik: Not the least expensive, by any means, but definitely some of the highest quality and the largest diversity of what is offered. Graham: Yes. And we have farmer’s markets. Karasik: We do. Graham: Two of them in Encinitas. Karasik: Yeah. Let’s talk–let’s talk a little bit about those. Do you get to know any of those farmers? Or— Graham: I actually—way back when, was it Harry Stone? Don’t quote me.—who founded the first farmer’s market in San Diego County up in Vista. He was a member of the California Rare 18 �Fruit Growers. And I’ve been an avid member of the California Rare Fruit Growers for decades. And the idea took off and it was great. Karasik: You know, another interview that I did, I learned that the–there is a big difference, obviously, between an egg farm, a truck farm, and a—are you familiar with that? So, the truck farm is the vegetables that you would then truck to the market. And then obviously the egg farm and the chickens, because Cal State San Marcos that was a huge egg farm. And actually, on the way over here you were telling me there was a wonderful nursery here that has now been— Graham: Sunshine Gardens Nursery is now closed, and it was a very nice nursery for I don’t know how many decades here. Karasik: Mm-hmm. And now it’s–it’s–they’re making room for housing because we need that, and–and I think all the more reason. We have community gardens here. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Did you want to talk a little bit about that? Graham: I think it’s wonderful we have a community garden, quite close to the Heritage Museum here in Encinitas. And there are people who live in condominiums or apartments and they don’t have a yard to put a garden. So, community garden gives them wonderful opportunity. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, now, I do want to encourage people, even if they don’t have a yard, to consider possibly growing—we used to call it pot culture, but now that gives you the wrong impression— container gardening! (laughs) Karasik: Right. Graham: Yes. For instance, you can grow a nice return of blackberries, pick the thornless varieties in a fifteen-gallon pot, fifteen-gallon black plastic pot. Or you can put a more decorative pot if you’d like and make it more decorative, and you can put it on your balcony perhaps on your condominium or apartment. Mind that you give it full sun, etc. But, even without having a yard, there are some edibles you can grow if you research things carefully. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Have you found that people in your neighborhood come to you and ask you for your advice? Or how do you—(both she and Graham chuckle) I think I’m going to be asking you for some advice, for sure. Graham: Well, this was an interesting first four months in the year 2022. I captured six gophers. Now only one of them in my yard. I’m grateful for it was only one in my yard. But the other five were in three different neighbors’ yards. And I was labeled the gopher getter. I’ve captured gophers in other yards previous years too, but this was an especially active first four months of the year, for some reason. 19 �Karasik: Do you think—and I might even have heard somewhere—do you think that the drought had a lot to do with that, that they might even be seeking water or food, or are–are they—maybe they’ve increased their offspring. Do we know why? Graham: I don’t think so. I didn’t hear anything connecting those variables. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: It was just a— Karasik: And then where do you take ‘em? When you catch them. Graham: Well, there are no have-a-heart traps for gophers. You realize this is–(makes a gesture with her right hand of cutting off her head and lets out a scraping sound) these are kill traps. Karasik: Oh. Graham: Because the gopher is not a wanted critter to release in a wild area. No. So, the traps you’d use are kill traps for gophers. Karasik: Hmm. Unfortunate, but necessary. Graham: Mm-hmm. Because remember if you don’t deal with it early, the pest note that University of California Cooperative Extension puts out on gophers, I believe it says, “In irrigated areas, like our gardens, gophers can have up to three litters a year.” And I believe they said the number in the litter can vary from like five to seven. So, that’s a pretty horrific number of offspring they could produce in a year, if you don’t deal with them quickly. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And I think it was this year I was given the gopher getter title, because the one party I trapped a gopher successfully was just put the trap in one day and the next day I had it. And she happened to comment to her neighbor across the street, and he had a gopher, so he contacted me. And there were these three neighbors fairly close to each other on an adjacent street, that— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Graham: And the first four months of the year that—bing–bing–bing. Karasik: Hmm. Um, going back to—you’ve mentioned a couple of times. So it’s U.C. California San Diego, because when I tried to contact you, there is a division there. Do you want to tell us a little bit how that’s set up, ‘cuz I know you’re kind of under their umbrella. And— Graham: Well, the Master Gardener program is a volunteer branch of the University of California Cooperative Extension. It’s not just one university, ‘cuz sometimes people have thought, “Oh, you’re office is at U.C.S.D.” No, no, it’s actually in the County Operations Center in Corina Mesa. Karasik: Mmm. 20 �Graham: And we have information that is generated from all of these universities throughout the state. Now some of it applies directly to where we’re here in the San Diego. Another applies to more northern California areas. But the information clearly tells you that. And of course, our tax money is paying for some of this research, because we have a very productive agricultural economy in California. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And the research is directed toward the agricultural, commercial aspect. But there are spinoff bits of information that are generated that directly help the home gardener as well. So we’re out there. As a matter of fact, if I can bend your ear, the story about the creation of the Master Gardener program was apparently it started in Washington state. And this good-hearted cooperative extension agent was getting a lot of calls, people having questions on their home garden situation. But he was being paid to advise and help out the commercial growers and farmers. And he didn’t want to be rude and not help them, but he had his plate full helping the commercial farmers. So he got the brilliant idea. I’ll train a crew of volunteers and when I get a home garden question I will pass the question on to them. And that’s what I was told started the Master Gardener program. And now I’ve been told that we actually have Master Gardeners in all fifty states. Karasik: Oh, wow, good. Graham: So— Karasik: Oh, that’s great. Well, um, we’ve certainly had an interesting conversation here and if there’s anything else that you would like to tell. We’re so appreciative of the work that you’ve done and I can see where that’s been a really big part of your life and I’ve–I’m assuming very rewarding— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —and it’s enabled you to make a lot of friends and— Graham: And I’d like to say also I’m very pleased to volunteer for the Solana Center for Environmental Innovation. Karasik: Oh, that’s such a great place. Graham: Right here in Encinitas. Karasik: Let’s talk about that just for a little bit, because again in the future I think that will be something that will still be here. Graham: Yes, of course. Karasik: And they do so many things there. Let’s talk about that a little bit. Graham: Well, they were at the Encinitas EcoFest, right next to my Master Gardener exhibit. And they teach many aspects and as far as gardening, composting, very important. And instead of having that truck rumble through your neighborhood once a week and pick up the green waste 21 �in the bin, if more of us could compost on site, it would help the environment. Also, of course, if you’ve ever gone to the nursery and priced bags of potting soil and compost, it’s not inexpensive if you consider the number of bags you could use as an avid gardener for the year. Karasik: And I don’t know if we always know where all that soil came from. Graham: Well, it is nice to have control of it from your own garden and know what went into it exactly. Karasik: Exactly. Graham: And while it does take a little bit of room and it does take some time, it also is a nice excuse to get out into the fresh air in the garden. Karasik: What do you recommend, because I know a lot of people are afraid to compost because they think it will bring critters? Graham: Oh, okay. When you are putting certain elements in the compost pile that you think might accidentally bring critters like the egg shell, or the citrus peel or the avocado pits or something, it is highly recommended that you bury that in the compost pile with a layer at least four inches maybe even six inches of yard trimmings above it. That will basically absorb any odors and of course it’s not recommended that you put bones in the compost pile, because that would tend to attract critters. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Now, will–will worms come into that? Or is a worm compost kind of a separate approach to composting? Graham: Well there is vermicompost in a worm bin. Karasik: Right. Graham: Worms will come into your compost pile. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And you give them things to eat. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: The fruit waste, like the peels and pits, etc. As well as the decomposing leaves and twigs, etc. Karasik: Leftover food, and lettu—greens, things like that. Graham: Vegetables and fruits leftover. Karasik: Yeah. Yeah. Graham: Not meat. Of course. Karasik: Right, right. 22 �Graham: Not meat or bugs. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: And of course, you’ve moistened the environment in the compost pile to help it decompose and they–worms breathe through their skin and they need a moist–yep, they actually need a moist skin to survive. So, they are very happy to find this moist environment which offers them perfect lodging and food buffet, moisture, yes. Karasik: Just for my own curiosity. I’ve always been fascinated by earthworms and the fact that you’ve–that you’ve–they’re w–w–one of the few living beings where you can cut off their head and they’ll grow another one. Is that correct? Graham: No. that’s not— Karasik: They’ll grow, maybe not their head, but the back end or— Graham: No. Karasik: That’s not true? Graham: Um, too many people—I mean, depending on the amount you cut off at the tail end, they might survive. Karasik: Not intentionally, obviously. Graham: Yeah. But if you accidentally cut one in two, some people have this misconception that you’ll get two worms. No. It’ll die. Karasik: Aw. I had that misconception. Graham: Yeah. That’s a popular— Karasik: And they are so critical. Graham: Yes. Karasik: They are so critical. But probably one of the most or when we look at–at soil. Are you familiar with soil regeneration and some of the ways that they’re trying now to—because so much of our soil has been depleted? Do you get involved in that, or are you just— Graham: Well, with the compost pile, you’re helping replenish. Karasik: mm-hmm. Graham: And when you think about it, okay. The nutrients it takes for let’s say your peach tree to make peaches, it has to make leaves. Well, some of that is from the very leaves that came, matured, off the tree. So, you’re recycling it in the compost pile and putting it back underneath the tree when you’re putting some compost into the soil under your peach tree. Karasik: Right. Wonderful. That’s–that’s a good point as well. 23 �Graham: Mm-hmm. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: So you’re just basically recycling the nutrients as opposed to chucking them into the trash and hauling them off to the land fill. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: And not even chucking them into the green bin and having them hauled off. But, at least when it goes to the green facility at Miramar, it gets repurposed. But it’s more. Karasik: Have you ever visited that place? Graham: Oh yes! It was fantastic. This was decades ago. Karasik: That would be a wonderful tour. Graham: There was a field trip—I don’t remember if it was Master Gardeners or the Encin—the Solana Center sponsored the field trip decades ago. It was so much fun! And wow, it was interesting. Karasik: I’d like to do that. I’d also like to visit one of these desalination plants and see how they’re doing that. Graham: Oh, yes. Karasik: Because that seems to be the future. Now, that’s another point. Graham: I was able to take a tour of that too. That was Solana Center that hosted that decades ago. Karasik: Oh, did they? Graham: From up the street at the Carlsbad Desalinization Plant. Karasik: Yes! I might ask them if they know how somebody can do that now. One other thing I wanted to ask about the Solana Center. I had seen something where you can get some buckets and take it home, and so you can kind of get compost from them, or maybe a starter? How does that work? Graham: Um, you pay a fee. I—don’t quote me because I’m not sure exactly how much it is. You get a bucket to take home, and you put your fruit and vegetable waste in it, and also bones and—in other words, if you’re not composting you put these materials in there. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And it has some bokashi in it, which ferments it. Karasik: Is bokashi an organism that breaks it down? Graham: It’s a— 24 �Karasik: What is that? Graham: —it’s more like a chemical— Karasik: Oh, okay. Graham: —that pickles it. I think it’s what they compare it to. Karasik: Okay. Graham: And you can take that back, and then you can get some finished compost as well. So— Karasik: Oh, that’s how— Graham: —but you’ll–you’ll want to call the Solana Center and ask for the details. Karasik: Right. Yes. I’ve been over there and they were very supportive to us— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —for the EcoFest as well. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Well, I just want to thank you for your time. And this has been a really interesting and educational interview. And you have definitely had a wonderful life, and I sense the fact that you will be around for quite a while and helping a whole lot more people. And I’m so happy to know you and really appreciate your time, and what you’re going to offer for future generations. Graham: Well, thanks for this opportunity to reach out to people. Karasik: Oh, absolutely. You’re so welcome. So again we’re—actually, I don’t know if I mentioned this. We’re at the San Dieguito Heritage Museum which is here in Encinitas and I really wish that people could see that, although they’ll have the opportunity to do that, you know, locally. But the history here at this particular museum is incredible, as well. So, would encourage people to come out if they happen to listen to this and we thank them also for the opportunity to use their equipment, and hope that this will be a good video. So, thank you very much. Graham: You’re very welcome. Karasik: And we will finish here. 25 �GLOSSARY Babcock peach (pg. 15) Biophaline (pg. 7, 8) California Rare Fruit Growers (pg. 18-19) Carlsbad Desalinization Plant (pg. 24) County Operations Center [Corina Mesa] (pg. 20) EcoFest (pg.1, 6, 10, 14, 21, 25) Glyphosate (pg.6) Heritage Museum (pg. 19) Integrated Pest Management (pg.3, 4) Johns Hopkins University (pg. 11) Kirkcaldy, Scotland (pg. 12) Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility (pg. 10, 14) Master Gardener(s) (pg. 1-4, 6, 12-15, 17, 20-21, 24) Panamint nectarine (pg. 15) Polychaete (pg. 7, 8) San Dieguito Heritage Museum (pg. 25) San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station [Plant One] (pg. 7, 8, 10, 12) Solana Center for Environmental Innovation (pg. 21, 24-25) Stone, Harry (pg. 18) Sunset Western Garden book (pg. 13, 17) Sunshine Gardens Nursery (pg. 19) Truck farm (pg. 19) University of California Cooperative Extension (pg. 12, 20, 21) Vermicompost (pg. 22) 26 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Graham. Carol. Interview transcript, November 4, 2022. Description An account of the resource Carol Graham is a Master Garderner. She has a Bachelor's degree in Zoology and began her career working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One. After its closure, she enrolled to become a Master Gardner volunteer that was sponsered through the University of California Cooperative Extension program. The Master Gardner program is dedicated to distributing information for an environmentally-responsible home and garden. She has been a Master Gardner since 1983 and participates in various events such as EcoFest. She is very passionate about the study of insects, pest management, composting, and protecting the environment from pesticides. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Carol Graham Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Suzy Karasik Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-04 Subject The topic of the resource Crops -- Diseases and pests -- Biological control Gardening -- California -- San Diego County Master gardeners -- California -- San Diego County Organic farming San Diego State University San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station (Calif.) University of California (System). Cooperative Extension Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Encinitas (Calif.) North San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Carol Graham License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GrahamCarol_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-04_Transcription Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience