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Oral Histories
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Julia Friedman
Interviewee
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Leea Pronovost
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PronovostLeea_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-08.xml
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Activism (LGBTQ)
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5.4 Oral history of Leea Pronovost, April 8, 2022 SC027-18 1:16:52 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. LGBTQ+ activism LGBTQ+ rights San Diego (Calif.) Springfield (Mass.) Transgender people -- Civil rights Activism (LGBTQ) Leea Pronovost Julia Friedman mp4 PronovostLeea_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-08.mp4 1:|14(8)|21(14)|30(2)|36(8)|44(3)|54(13)|62(11)|70(6)|77(4)|91(7)|98(1)|104(2)|112(2)|119(11)|127(11)|135(11)|144(1)|155(8)|167(12)|175(1)|181(10)|189(1)|194(8)|201(8)|210(5)|217(6)|227(8)|236(1)|244(11)|252(11)|261(10)|269(2)|276(6)|283(8)|291(14)|299(10)|308(2)|316(11)|324(12)|332(15)|340(3)|345(11)|353(10)|361(7)|367(6)|375(8)|383(1)|390(1)|398(11)|405(14)|417(7)|430(6)|437(7)|444(1)|451(3)|463(2)|473(9)|481(14)|490(11)|500(2)|512(6)|523(11)|534(15)|542(5)|549(13)|558(1)|568(10)|576(1)|582(13)|597(9)|604(6)|611(2)|616(17)|623(6)|631(7)|649(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b85338e1bff43294d1016cc0062ca02f.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and childhood Julia Friedman: Okay. Today is Friday, April eighth, 2022 at 10:02 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Leea Pronovost for the University Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Leea, thank you for being with me here today. Leea Pronovost: Oh, thank you for having me. Friedman: I would first like to start by asking when and where were you born? Pronovost: I was born in 1959, October second in Springfield, Massachusetts. Friedman: And can you please describe your childhood? Pronovost: (laughs) Well it wasn't exactly a very pleasant childhood, let's put it that way. One of my earliest memories was actually in 1963, I was four years old and at a Christmas party at my grandmother's house. And I saw my grandmother used to give us little money cards every Christmas--all of her grandchildren. And I noticed my name on an envelope my mother was holding. And I asked her what that word was in front of my name. My grandmother had written “Master.” And I didn't know that word--I didn't. So, she told me what it was, that it was a “Master” and what it stood for. And then I saw she had my little sister’s envelope in her hand and I asked her what was in front of my little sister’s name because of what's different than mine. And, uh, it was “Miss” and I asked her what that meant. And I said, I basically said, “There's something wrong here.” And I think, “I'm supposed to be more like the ‘Miss.’” (laughs) So after her explanation of which each one of those terms meant. As you can imagine that was 1963. So, (laughs) a whole different world. And my mother basically told me to shut up and never talk about it again. Which, you know, because we actually started getting into an argument about it in front of all my aunts and uncles and cousins. And so that's why she told me that. And honestly, I never did talk with her about it again. She actually died before I ever had a chance to, so. That's one of my earliest memories. After that it didn't get much better dealing with that issue. I mean, I was raised very strict Catholic. I was an alter boy. I, um, in my teen year, even, I spent a lot of time in a Jesuit monastery trying to pray that away if you will. And even thought about going into the seminary at one point and becoming a Catholic priest. But I didn't, I ended up joining the Navy. But that's (laughs) another story. So, the--and my father wasn't exactly the nicest of people. He was very much, as you can imagine, a bigoted person, against gays and people like me. I can remember being a kid and hearing about Christine Jorgensen [the first transgender woman in the United States to attain fame for receiving a sex reassignment surgery] and some of the remarks that my father talked to about when he referred to her and were--made me feel very terrible about myself because I knew that's how I felt. So, it wasn't an easy time, believe me. But that's pretty much my basic childhood. Leea Pronovost discusses her experience growing up in a conservative and homophobic household in Springfield, Massachusetts during the 1960s. childhood ; homophobia ; Massachusetts ; Springfield (Mass.) ; transgender ; transphobia 309 Time in the Navy Friedman: Well thank you for sharing that, Leea. I'm sorry that you had such a difficult time growing up. Pronovost: Well, it was a totally different world compared to what we have now. Being transgender wasn’t--I didn't even, I don't think that word even existed until, you know, the 1990s. At some point, I mean, people like me, they used to call them “transsexuals,” which nowadays a lot of the trans community considers that a derogatory term, so. And--but that's the way our society was back then. I mean, I can even tell you that in 1977, I joined the Navy, um, give you--for instance. And when I joined the Navy on my ASVAB, I scored in the top five percent in the nation and they gave me two strikes for going into bootcamp, one strike for coming out of bootcamp. And I was placed into, um, nuclear engineering program to be a nuclear engineer on a sub, and all my life, probably about 1965, I actually started cross dressing, borrowing my sister's clothes, because it made me feel better. But yet there was a certain amount of shame with that. So--but that continued on even into the Navy. And I can remember being on a leave of absence, going to a bar dressed up, and coming out of the bar and being discovered by my commanding officer who then proceeded to file charges against me for crossdressing. And I ended up going through a court-marshal. So, push came to shove, they didn't do what they call a Section 8 on me. What they did do was give me a personal hardship discharge, because they basically said they didn't want “my kind” there. So, but it was very nerve-wracking. I can remember thinking--and I was living in Massachusetts at the time. I'm like thinking throughout the entire court-marshal worst case scenario, they Section 8 me, classify me as, you know, “mentally disturbed,” because of my crossdressing. And if I had went back to Massachusetts with that on my discharge papers, they could have (laughs) at actually put me into a mental institution back then. They still had governmental-run mental institutions in Massachusetts then, and they were not a very pretty sight. And even with people like me, they would actually--and gay people--they would actually lobotomize them trying to “fix them,” so to speak. So, (laugh) it wasn't, it was a totally different world. And I can, you know, they appreciate all the things that, people like me and the whole, uh, gay movement, gay rights and people that fought for and the seventies and even into the eighties and are still fighting today. And I'm one of them. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: Because no matter how far we've come, there's still much further to go. So. Leea Pronovost discusses exploring her gender identity through cross-dressing, as well as her time in the Navy, beginning in 1977. Cross-dressing ; homophobia ; Massachusetts ; transgender ; transphobia ; United States. Navy 572 Coming out/ Turning towards activism Friedman: I would actually like to switch gears if that's okay and talk about your years in activism. You've been an activist within the transgender community for twelve years. When did you first decide to turn to activism? Pronovost: Well, after I felt--after I came out to everybody, um--let me explain. In 2006, I had a near death experience that actually--because as I told you, you know, from 1963 on--I knew something was different. 2006, I had a near death experience that caused me to look at what my life was about, who I am, why I survived. And I came to the realization that I had to do something about this. And I started my transition soon as I recovered from that, which was probably about a year after that. I was well enough to actually--I didn't start hormones at that time, but I started looking at herbal supplements that would change my body. And I didn't come out to everybody. My current ex-wife at the time, I did come out to her about changing. And she was okay with it as long as I didn’t tell anybody. She carried--being a Latin person, carried a certain stigmatization around who I was. So, um, but anyway, it took me a couple of years to get on hormones and there's even stories there (laughs). I was actually denied my hormones at one point in time by my therapist, which really--I didn't understand why. I understood that that was the laws. And then, you know, I've heard other stories of other going to support groups and talking to a therapist and learning how to come out to basically the world. And it troubled me how difficult it was. And that whole path of trying to-- knowing deep down inside (laughs) all my life, that something was different, just never realized what it was and because I grew up before internet. And so, it the only place I could find information was in a library. And I was too ashamed to go into a library and pull a book about transsexuals (laughs), you know? Especially with my Catholic upbringing. So, it was very difficult and there were many times that throughout my life that I actually tried to commit suicide because of that. Because I thought I was alone. I thought I different. I never knew there was people like me. And then finding all those hurdles that I had to jump through. And then at the same time, you know, I started discovering that the state that I live in, Massachusetts, didn't even have any protections for transgender people. And if I tried to rent an apartment or buy a house, or, you know, get a job as a trans person, people could actually say “No,” because I was transgender. So, these things really disturbed me down to my core because, you know, it is who I am. It is my identity. So, that's what really got me to become more active and become an advocate and activist for the community because I wanted to make it better for the next people. I want to make it better for the next generation, so they don't have to struggle like I did. Not knowing who they were. I wanted to give the trans community that visibility so that they have role models that can even, you know, that they can idolize basically, and say, “I want be like that person.” Because as a youth, you know, I never had that. We, I mean, if you look in the sixties, seventies and eighties, the people that were portrayed as trans-- what we now call transgender or transsexuals-- in those times, they were either the joke of the movie or they were, you know, the crazed maniac killer (laughs), you know? And I would look at them and I would say, “Oh, that's me when I grow up.” But yet, then I find out that they're either the joke or they're, you know, the crazed maniac killer. And I'm like, “Okay, well, that's not me.” So, I'm not like that, but you know, here I am, that's who I was. So, I wanted to be able to give, you know, the next generation, the next batch of people, because I--after going to a bunch of support groups for being transgender-- I realized that I wasn’t alone and there's a lot more people out there that are like me. And once I started doing my history research, you know, of transgender people--for instance, we've been around forever. I mean, I can tell you, in the Neolithic Age there was art drawings on cave walls of a third sex. And, you know, that date back to about 7,000 BC. So, (laughs) people like me, I've been around forever (laughs). It's just so something that hasn't been known, that's all, at least to the Western world. Because you take, you know--actually to be truthful with you, I identify as Two Spirit. The Indigenous people--not just here in North America--but Indigenous people all around the world have some of them have multiple genders. Two Spirit is an in North American Indigenous term that encompasses some tribes have as many as five genders, some three genders. Friedman: Wow. Pronovost: There's some tribes that don't even acknowledge gender. Men and women didn't have specific rules, if you will. I know of a tribe in Africa that, you know--I met a girl years ago, a trans girl from Africa. She had no concept of what he/she [pronouns] meant. They only had one pronoun for all people in her language. So, it was very difficult for her and even than her mother to understand that concept when they moved here to the United States. So. Leea Pronovost discusses coming out as a transgender woman in 2006 after a near-death experience. After coming out, Pronovost turns towards activism after noticing the hurdles that transgender people face in terms of access to medical treatment, or lack of protections in the housing or job markets. Activism (LGBTQ) ; LGBTQ+ activism ; transgender 1098 Activist activities Friedman: Wow. That's really interesting. And I'm glad that you finally found a community when you first came out. When you first started, um, your working in activism, did you partner with any organizations during these early years and what type-- what type of activities did you participate in? Pronovost: Oh, I partnered with many organizations to be truthful with you. One of the first groups--the two first groups that I partnered with were a group called Tri Ess [an international support group for heterosexual cross-dressers and their partners and families.]. It was actually started in the 1950s by a woman named Virginia Prince. Basically, that was for, in her terms, heterosexual cross-dressers. Although once I became involved in the club, found out that there were a lot of transgender people within the organization that wanted to actually transition. Not that I wouldn't say myself, I would say that cross-dressers do fall under the trans umbrellas, so to speak. So, but, some, some of them don't agree with that, some of them do agree with it. Some of them think they're the only true trans people, when you really get down to the nitty gritty. One of the other main things was the transgender group of Pioneer Valley in Massachusetts. I--that was a peer support group and we were active in helping others find out that--because one of the toughest things that I found was in talking to new people as they come into the groups that they always thought they were alone as well. Because they never knew anybody that was like them. So, you know, that made such a difference for me in my life to realize all of a sudden, “Hey, they're like me and you know what, they're okay. That's an engineer, that's a medical doctor and that's a lawyer,” you know? “This person, you know, is, you know, just a normal average person living their life (laughs) so it's not so bad.” So, it made such a difference in the world for me that it, you know, it just, it seemed like common sense to move into it. And then I mean, I blossomed into a bunch of other organizations. I, uh, (laughs), I didn't start my transition into late in life, as you can imagine. Born in [19]59 and starting in 2007. It was forty-seven or forty-eight years old or something like that. But the thing is it, they, it--I wanted to do as much as I could for, or wherever. And so not being of (laughs)--I decided to help another group called Rainbow Elders. That was a nonprofit group run by, uh, not another nonprofit, that they did stuff for seniors. I can't remember their name off of top of my head, but it-- we used to do things like go out on panels and teach medical facilities. We would teach nursing homes. We would teach assisted living centers. We were teaching people in, um, it just reaching out to all sorts of businesses and stuff and doing panels and educating them about the LBGT experience by telling our stories. Then, you know, I joined another group over at UMass Amherst and, I--that was the Stonewall Speakers Bureau. And they were very active within the GSAs [Gay Straight Alliance]. So, I used to go out to all the GSAs, whether it was a grammar school, middle school, junior high school, high school, and sometimes even other colleges, asking us to come out and speak to gender-related studies and/or education of the faculty. So, and then I started--because the group--that Pioneer Valley group and the Tri Ess group that I first started with--one of them was up in New Hampshire, even though I lived in Massachusetts and the other one was in the Southern part of Massachusetts. So, I was having a drive, you know, anywhere from forty-five minutes to an hour, sometimes even two hours to go to a meeting. So, I decided to create my own peer support group, which I partnered with a hospital in Western Mass[achussets] in the county that I was in, Franklin County in Greenfield Mass. And they gave me a place to work with and a small budget. And I was able to start a group that actually still runs today, even though I'm here in California now. So, then because I also became part of what was known as the Massachusetts Transgendered Political Coalition, which in 2011, we ended up fighting for transgender rights. They made us actually take off on the bill by the time it--in order to get it out of committee, we had to take off transgender public accommodations rights. But it--bill did still encompass our rights to financial institutions, our rights for housing, our rights for, uh, financial housing and employment. Those were the three main rights that we were fighting for. Which it did end up getting passed in 2011 by the end of that year. Uh, they became-- (both talking at once) Friedman: (both talking at once)--Oh, congratulations. Pronovost: Yeah, thanks. But then again, in another organization that I became part of back in 2016, I helped to--we went back and lobbied or advocated for the state government to include transgender public accommodations, which would give us the--most people think, “Oh, that's the bathroom stuff and locker room stuff,” but there's so much more to it when you really sit down and think about it. The right to ride on a public transportation, the right to, (laughs), let's say I worked in a restaurant. If I punched out my time card to go out the back employee door and walk around to the front of that restaurant that hired me, they still have the right to refuse to serve me. Those are actually public accommodations. The right to be served in a hospital, you know? Many times throughout the years that I've worked, I've had myself and my friends have had discrimination by going to a hospital. I had one friend that they fell down on black ice and she got taken away on an ambulance and when they tore off or cut off her clothes, they found that she had a penis. And the doctor just looked at her and said--and then looked at the nurses and said, “Get that thing out of my hospital.” So, she--they called for another ambulance to take her to another hospital. Nowadays, because of that (unintelligible) she's permanently disabled, because she didn't receive the proper attention. And now, you know, we as taxpayers are paying to support her because of that discrimination. And so, things like that just didn't make any sense to me. So, you know, it made sense to go back and fight. So, we formed another organization called Freedom Massachusetts. And we fought for trans rights and we won them. But also, because of all that other activism, I had other organizations like PFLAG [organization dedicated to supporting the LGBTQ+ community ; formally known as Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays] and, uh, PFLAG in two separate counties, both of them had asked me on to be on their board of directors. So, I ended up being on their board of directors at the same time about the--that same time I had many friends that I lost over the years in the support groups. And when I say I lost them, I mean that they took their own lives. And they're no longer here. And prior to my transition, I never knew anybody that committed suicide. Now, all of a sudden in the few short years that I was out as a trans person, I knew more than half a dozen. And I just felt that was wrong. So, I had heard about a organization called Trans Lifeline, and I actually became an operator for them. And because I, myself, (laughs), had, as I told you before, early in my life, I didn't know how to deal with this. I didn't know there were other people like me, there were a few times that I'd tried to commit suicide. So, and if I-- so if I could prevent one trans person from (laughs) stop—help-- stop them from committing suicide, then, you know, that would make me feel great. So, I spent a number of years as an operator, and then I actually became a team lead for a bunch of operators. Actually, even given peer support to the operators, because if you can imagine Trans Lifeline was an organization that was created by transgender people, for trans gender people. And the only criteria was that you had to be trans to be an operator. What helped was, though most of the operators were ones that had tried to commit suicide at one point or another. And sometimes when you're talking somebody down from a suicidal attempt, it brings you yourself into some pretty dark places. So, the operators would definitely need some, you know, self-care and guidance to get back to a point where they can do self-care even. And I know that I have many cases that led me into dark places that I didn't want to go, but yet, I went there to try and make sure, and it makes a difference. It really does, the peer thing, because I've never lost anyone when I was talking with them. When an individual that's on that brink or on that fence, or standing on that (laughs) that [precipice] to jump, if you will. Having somebody else talk to you, that's been there and been through what your experiencing, makes a huge difference. And they open up and listen. And then they also feel much easier to open up to you so that they can pour those feelings out and step off that [precipice]. So, that was really nice work for me. And then the next thing that I (laughs) became active in was the Transgender Law Center up in Oakland, California. I started volunteering for what they call the Detention Project. The Detention Project is basically--there's a lot of transgender people within our prison system that either wanted to transition or had already started their transition and they’re wondering, you know, “Here you have this trans woman sitting in a male jail, what are her rights?” Um, you know, and, “Can she have her name change? Can she get women's clothing? Can be isolated so she's protected away from the general population?” All of these things and Transgender Law Center addresses all of those issues. I was basically a research person for the lawyers and I would actually go and research each individual state's laws pertaining to the detention of transgender people, and then compose letters. And the lawyers would then approve or ask me, you know, change this, change that. And then we would issue the letters back to the inmates, so that they knew what their rights were and how to fund those rights. So, which meant a lot to me (laughs) the next step phase in my, uh, was actually working with the local because I was doing on the national level. And I started working with the local county jails and state prisons, and department of corrections. And I helped them to write--I helped both Massachusetts and Connecticut to write their policies on transgender people. And then--the same way with most of the county jail systems, I helped them to write--and I ran peer support groups within the county jails as well, so. Then I met a woman online (laughs) and moved out here to California (laughs). Well, it, it took a while. It took a few years, it--we had a Coast-to-Coast relationship, and we developed this great relationship. And we decided to take it to the next level and move in together. And I tried to get her to come out to Massachusetts, but one point she came out and it was minus--the high temperature was minus fifteen degrees. And this was the week between Christmas and New Year's. So, she was like, “No, no, no, no.” (both laugh) So, of course I've moved out here, and been living here ever since then. But before I even moved out, once we made that decision to move out here, I was like, “You know, I'm an--I'm an advocate and activist. What do you have out there that I can get involved with?” So, she introduced me to the North County--she was living in Oceanside at the time, and she introduced me to the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. So, I met Max Disposti, the Director and Founder of the place. And I was like, “What can I do to come?” (laughs) You know? “What can I do when I get out here?” (laughs) “Where can I go?” He's like, “Don't worry, we'll put you to work.” So, (both laugh) soon as I moved out here, they had an opening for the Unicorn Homes program, which being a case manager for that program, it was only fifteen hours a week. But, to start, and I was like, “Hey, it's along the lines,” because a lot of times running the peer support group in prisons, I was helping people do a lot of navigate social services that they would need getting out of jail. So, it wasn't too far of a fetch for me to be able to help people, you know, navigate applying for Medi-Cal or, you know, Cal Fresh or being there just to listen and try to help homeless youth. And one of the things, even in Massachusetts, that one of my goals was eventually to create a transgender housing service. So, when I moved here and I had that opportunity to join something like this, I jumped on it. And Max liked what he saw in all the volunteer work that I did. So, he hired me for the position, even though there were a number of other candidates, I received the job. And I just started doing a whole bunch of free work for them (laughs). Because this is where my passion is. In the meantime, you know, I had been, you know, I still own property back East in Massachusetts, rental property. And, you know, I had a nice package of--so I wasn't worried about money or anything. So, why not work where my heart is? Nowadays though, I do a whole bunch of other things for The Center. I manage most of the grants for The Center. I also, now am, uh, Gender Advocacy Project Chair person for the Gender Advocacy Project, which puts on a number of events a year they do--we just recently had the Transgender Day of Visibility a couple weekends ago. Well, this weekend will be two weekends ago. Which was a wonderful event. We had, I don't know if I had to guess probably around 200, maybe 300 people come through and a bunch of booth with resources. And we had a great show. We had speakers and musicians and playing, and we had fun and games for the youth, and it was just a wonderful weekend. Wonderful day. But, so. Gender Advocacy Project also does Transgender Day of Remembrance. And, which is in November twentieth and a rather somber day for us because we're remembering those that we lost through transphobic violence. And the past few years have been actually kind of tough because the numbers have gone up astronomically in 2020, if I remember correctly, there was forty-one or forty-two, and in 2021, I believe there was fifty-six trans women. Now when I say these numbers, they seem like small numbers compared to a nationwide thing, but those are the ones that we actually know. Which, you know, a lot of times the gender is not known and, and they--or, and/or they misgender the person because the family doesn't want them to know about it. So, that number, even though the known cases keeps going up, I'm sure it's at least doubled if not tripled. So for-- for supposedly, according to the statistics, there's less than one percent of people are transgender throughout the nation. So, for that small amount of people to be targeted, the numbers of murders like that--violent murders--basically hate crimes, in my opinion, that's an astronomical amount. When you start looking at the statistics and the breakouts. Especially that most of those numbers, you know--I carry a certain amount of privilege because I'm a white transgender woman--or I appear to be white. I do have some American heritage, um, Indigenous blood in me. But that's something that people don't see because I appear to be white. So, therefore I've got a certain amount of privilege. I know that. When I look at a trans woman of color, those are the ones that are targeted when you look at those people that we honor year after year after year. It's usually Black or Brown people, and occasionally an Indigenous person in there. But, um, and sprinkled with a few Caucasian people. So, you know, it's so that when you look at that target population, that number, even it's more astronomical, when you break it down to what I call the “intersectionality of marginalizations.” So, you know, that's why that particular day is so important to me, even though it's a somber day. And I'm glad that we celebrate that and celebrate those lives that we lost. I'm hoping one day (laughs) and trying to do our best by fighting the hate. One of the grants that the North County LGBTQ Resource Center just got it is--we got a bunch of money into actually--and that's what the grant is called, “Fight the Hate.” (laughs) So, you know, it's an honor for me to be doing this work and nowadays I'm actually paid full time for what I do, because I do the grants. I do the Unicorn Homes. I'm also the Gender Advocacy Project Chair. I'm also--it, I never mentioned what I did prior to, well, while all that activation was going on, activism and advocacy work was going on, I actually worked a full-time job in telecommunications. I was a Level III Telecommunications Engineer. So, now I do all the IT work (laughs) at The Center as well. So, (both laugh), anything I can do for the community, you know, to make their life better. And, you know, I'm, uh, want to, you know, the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, I feel like I'm privileged to be able to work there, to be honest with you. And to be able to work in such a queer environment where I don't have to face what all my siblings face on a daily basis, you know? Because, despite all the work that we've done, there's still a lot of stigmatization, and even hatred of the trans community. It’s funny how, you know, one of the things, when you've learned the history, it was, you know, of the entire gay rights movement. One of--they say that turning point was Stonewall, right? Well, the first person to actually throw something at the police was actually a transgender woman. And the other trans girls started in. And then if you know, I know people that were actually there and they told me that basically the lesbians then started joining in. And it was at the encouragement of the lesbians that the gay men finally stood up and started doing something against the police. So, if you look at that in its context who, it--that key moment who was the first trans woman? But in gay rights movements, we were left behind. We were taken out because we were so controversial and they wouldn't be able to get their rights. That's what we were told as trans women or transgender people. If we were in clumped in with them, you know? So, even though we were there at the beginning and even well before that, you know, a lot of--there, there were riots all over the country, you know? If you look at San Francisco, if you look at Miami, there were riots in gay bars where trans women--and trans women were the target, because a lot of the women, because they couldn't get jobs were street workers. So, therefore they're trying to pick up these supposedly “men” that dress as “women,” which at the time was against the law, working as a sex worker. So, it's because of that attraction that the trans women stood up and then the lesbian stood up with them, and then the gay guys stood up with them. And yet, here they are fighting for their rights and telling us to step back. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: You know, it just didn't make sense. And believe it or not, there's still quite a few lesbian--for instance, I'm with another woman, I consider--I'm sexually attracted to other women. I'm romantically attracted to other women. Not so much with the guys. So, I consider myself basically a lesbian. There's a lot of lesbians out there that would tell me I'm not a lesbian because I'm a trans woman. These are what we would call TERFS: trans-exclusionary radical feminists. And they're out there all over the world, you know? One of the most famous and most recent news is J.K. Rowling. (laughs) Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, (laughs) despite all the love for, you know, the Harry Potter stories, I have to disagree with her principles. So, you know, so there's still--my point is despite all the fighting and activism and how far we've actually come, we still have a huge way to go. So. Leea Pronovost describes her experiences partnering with a plethora of LGBTQ+ activist organizations. Pronovost collaborated with organizations on the East and West Coasts, in fields and topics such as education, peer support, suicide prevention, prison reform, politics, housing, and gender advocacy. Activism (LGBTQ) ; California. ; Gay-straight alliances in schools ; Greenfield (Mass.) ; homophobia ; LGBTQ+ activism ; Massachusetts ; New Hampshire ; Oakland (Calif.) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; PFLAG ; transgender ; Transgender discrimination ; Transgender Law Center ; transgender rights ; transphobia ; Tri Ess (Organization) 3098 Advocating towards inclusivity Friedman: That actually leads me to my next question. Um, do you think creating an inclusive society is achievable? Pronovost: (both laugh) Honestly, I hope so. You know, one of the latest endeavors that I've looked into is--and I hope I'm not premature in saying this. I've been appointed, still yet to be confirmed--a Senior Commissioner for the City of--Senior Affairs Commissioner for the City of Vista. So, I'm doing my part to hopefully make that true. I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime. I am much older than (laughs) most people nowadays. I am a senior, hence why I'm on that (laughs) Senior Affairs Commission. Or want to be on it. So, and as of lately, there's more and more transgender people within the political scheme, trying to fight the battle from within, which will hopefully eventually bring that about. I mean, that's my ultimate goal. One of the reasons why I do stuff like this, this oral history presentation, or any of my activism--a lot of it is educational. I have a pet peeve that, you know, education brings in tolerance. Tolerance can achieve, hopefully, acceptance. And once acceptance is there, in a general population, then the next thing that that should beget is inclusion. And that's where me, that's my goal. (laughs) Since coming out and becoming an activist, that's--that's my life--that's my life goal, if you will. I know I probably will not see it in my lifetime within the next twenty or so years. I hope we still achieve, you know, steps moving in that direction as we go. One of the things that the Biden administration just recently did, was give, uh, make the announcement on Transgender Day of Visibility, which is March thirty-first. They made an announcement that they were going to allow an X marker on the passports for a third gender. They were going to make it much easier for a person like me who, you know, I was identified male at birth, but yet, I'm a woman, make it much easier for somebody like me to change that name and gender marker on the passport. Another thing that they were planning on doing was one of the really bad areas that--and a lot of us had been fighting against this, the TSA--when you go through TSA screening in an airport and you have the x-ray, um, it's happened to me, you know? I identify as a woman, all my IDs are women and they see something down below. And they call you out, “Hey, we've got an anomaly. You need to step aside over here and we need to get somebody to physically search you.” Friedman: That’s awful. Pronovost: So, they're going to do away with that genderized screening. Which is an awesome thing. Finally, thank God. Because it's so embarrassing, you know, when that happens. And it happens to so many people, it's ridiculous what we have to endure and by being identified that way. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, that, that was a step in the right direction. They’re looking at making the Affordable Care Act more inclusive for gender treatment, especially one of the things that we recently did as the Gender Advocacy Project, which is the program of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. I--one of my volunteers put together a list of all the state bills. For instance--what I mean by that is, last year in 2021, we had one hundred and ninety-one hate bills. Most of them were targeting transgender people. And in particular transgendered youth and their ability to receive transgender healthcare. Me, working on Trans Lifeline, know that most of those phone calls that I used to get in on Trans Lifeline are trans youth, anticipating and wanting to commit suicide. If they were accepted and were allowed to get their hormones, though, those numbers would drop drastically. And we have the statistics to back that up. But here, these states are wanting to outlaw and actually go even--go after doctors. And look at Texas. Texas wants to, you know, go after the parents saying that gender-affirmation healthcare for their child is actually child abuse, you know? So, one of the things the Biden administration said was they were going to fight, that they were going to make the Affordable Care Act to protect so that doctors don't have to report that to state agencies. Because they, you know, the state agencies, the state Texas--state of Texas, was forcing the doctors to violate people's HIPAA rights. I mean, they have no right to that information, but yet the state's forcing the doctors to turn that over. HIPAA's a national law, It's not a state law (laughs). They shouldn't be able to bypass federal laws. So, the Biden administration, uh, pledge to make it more difficult for states to be able to do stuff like that. You look at the “Don't Say Gay Bill” in Florida [SB 1834: Parental Rights in Education], you know? Ohio just came out with a bill last week--or just earlier this week, I forget which--that basically mimics the exact wording of Florida's bill. And no one, the state of Ohio and who they are and their history, that will pass, you know? So, we're going to have a couple of states that, you know, people are not allowed to say “You're gay.” There's another state in Utah. Utah wrote a bill that's very similar to Texas's bill about transgender healthcare, but it actually even encompasses adults. So, they want to make it illegal to be me (laughs), you know? And force--trying to force us to go back into the closet, so to speak. Because like I said, you know, one of the thing, one of their arguments is, “Oh, it's become a ‘popular thing.’” It's not popular. You just never knew what the real numbers were because we were all hiding away in the closet. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, you know. These are thing-- that's why I say we still have so far to go. This particular year though, in the first three months of this year, we have two hundred and thirty-eight hate bills. So, we even-- last year was a record year with all the hate bills, but in three months’ time, we have surpassed all of the bills from last year. So, they're--the thing that I'm looking at is I'm hoping this is like the last grasp (laughs) of them. (both laugh), you know? Their desperation before they fall down into the cracking crevice and go wherever. Friedman: I hope. Pronovost: (laughs) Go away. Yeah. Well, that's my hope (laughs). Because, you know, if you look at the statistics throughout the entire United States as a nation, over sixty percent of the nation is for transgendered people and having our rights or rights in particular of LGBT people. So, that's more than half the population. So eventually I know we will get there because that acceptance number and because, you know, I see the trends: tolerance, acceptance, then inclusion. I know we'll get there, but we still have so far to go. So, um, yeah. I hope that--I hope that answers your question (laughs). Leea Pronovost discusses her thoughts about inclusivity in society. She hopes that society will become more inclusive of the LGBTQ+ community, but believes that it may take many more decades before society’s acceptance of LGBTQ+ people can happen. She also discusses the Biden administration’s legislative’s initiatives to protect LGBTQ+ rights. Activism (LGBTQ) ; Biden, Joseph R., Jr. ; California ; homophobia ; LGBTQ+ activism ; transgender ; Transgender discrimination ; transgender rights ; transphobia ; Vista (Calif.) 3748 West Coast and East Coast LGBTQ+ politics Friedman: Oh, absolutely. Kind of going back to politics, Like throughout your time, working on the East Coast and the West Coast, have you kind of noticed a difference in the politics working on both Coasts? Or, has it just kind of depended, um, kind of like the political shifts because you kind of were mostly on the on the East Coast? Um, is it kind of-- does it not really matter because you kind of just, you mostly on the East Coast for most of your life and--? Pronovost: Um, be honest with you, knowing, I don't think it's that much of a difference here, you know. Here at times, I think there's certain pockets you, that if you will, that are actually inclusive. When I look at the city of Oceanside, for instance, you know? I had mayor Esther Sanchez come out to Transgender Day of Visibility and she gave a speech about being visible and standing up for what's right, you know? And, so I see Oceanside as a pocket, but yet, when I look at a city like Vista where I actually live, you know? Vista is, you know, for lack of better terminology, very conservative. But then there's even worse conservative areas. Like, you start pushing up into Menifee or something like that, you know? You're looking at very, um, I don't like to use this because I don't like to use somebody's name, but it very much what most of us within the community would consider to be Trumpers or people that propagate hate. And I hate using that because I don't like to talk about individuals or refer to that. But that term, let's take it away from the person because that term existed, uh, “Trumping somebody” is overcoming is somebody. So that's what I mean by that terminology, more or less. Where they are totally conservative. And actually, even don't like people like me. You know, I've had people up there in that city actually reach out to me saying they're having troubles with their school systems. Now here in California, for a transgender person and they should--a student should be able to change their name on all information except for their transcripts. That's the only thing that they can't change because that's a legal document, but they should be able to walk in without the school notifying the parents that, “Hey, I no longer want to be called Jane. I want to be called Max.” And the school legally is obligated to change their paperwork. Friedman: I see. Pronovost: But yet that's not happening in a city like that. I get phone calls quite often saying that the school is fighting the individual or the school has actually outed the individual to the parents, even. Because some of these schools aren't, you know, minors are even protected from this, the school is not supposed to out the youth. But yet here we have it happening, you know? And you know, it--so the hate and the stigmatization and the indignities and the discrimination still happens. No matter where you are and back East, I happen to live in a pocket--that Pioneer Valley group that I belong to. That's the whole Connecticut River Valley area throughout all of Western Mass. And that was very progressive. I mean, we--there's a town called Northampton there, which it is kind of, uh, was the gay city for the East Coast kind of equivalent to what San Francisco is to here. So, it's mainly a college town, but that made the entire whole (laughs), excuse me, for lack of better terminology, Pioneer Valley seemed very, uh, “granola-ish,” if you will. Originally Pioneer Valley, that whole Connecticut River Valley, those were the first communes back in the sixties. They started there and then moved out here to the West Coast. So, (laughs), very similar, you know, because even in Massachusetts, you still had your pockets of hate and bigotry and, so. It's very similar. The fight's the same, no matter where (laughs) I seem to go. But, you know, the goal is to get more cities, you know, to be like Oceanside, you know? Because Oceanside they've raise, you know, they do raise a pride flag. Here in Vista, the pride flag that (laughs) that rainbow flag's never been raised here in the City of Vista. And so, you know, I'm hoping that maybe sitting on one of the commissions, (laughs) I can change that (laughs) from within. And so, you know. Leea Pronovost discusses the similarities and differences between LGBTQ+-related politics on the West and East Coasts. California ; Connecticut River Valley ; Massachusetts ; Menifee (Calif.) ; Northampton (Mass.) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Vista (Calif.) 4167 The importance of empowering others / Conclusion of interview Friedman: Well, I just have one more question. Pronovost: Okay. Friedman: Um, so you, you've already talked about it. You have a wonderful year--a wonderful career in activism. What have you learned throughout your twelve years working in the trans and LGBT field of activism? Pronovost: Oh, (laughs), I've learned so much it's hard to pinpoint any one thing. I think the one that weighs the heaviest on my heart, if you will, is probably--you know, one of the things that early on people did mention about the intersectionality of marginalizations and now that I've had, you know, more than ten years at this, I actually get to see it. And that breaks my heart. How, you know, for instance, you know, I worked as a Telecom Engineer and I was the Senior Telecom Engineer for one of the world's largest telecommunications companies, Nippon Telephone, and Telegraph [Nippon Telegraph and Telephone]. The first time I walked into an engineering meeting as me, as Leea, they looked at me like, you know, I-- “Where where's the donuts and coffee?” (laughs). That was the type of look I got. And, “Who the hell are you to be sitting here in this engineering meeting?” When, you know, before I used to lead the engineering meeting, you know? So, I know the difference between being a man in a man's field and being a woman trying to make it in a man's field. And, and so I don't—[connection froze]—People that I serve doing what I do and I look at, you know, a trans woman of color, and I see how much more discrimination that they actually face. Because of that intersectionality. Now you start adding more intersectionalities on top of that, such as being disabled or mentally disabled, you know? Disadvantaged. That--those numbers not only do--I mean, they grow exponentially and that's what weighs really heavy on my heart. And now I see that so much more easily, and makes me want to fight all that much or for them, you know? But also at the same time, you know, being--working at the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, and seeing other people fight for, you know, my rights as a trans woman, I want to say, you know, not for me, without me, you know? So that's one of--that ties well into the intersectionality thing. So, you know, I know I can't go out there. I can mention about it, but I can't go out there and say, “You know, we need more protections for trans women of color.” I can say that, but, you know, I don't experience that because I do have that privilege. I can talk from that privilege that we need to do something about it, you know? So, but I want those, I want to be able to empower those trans women of color to come forward and speak up for themselves. I want to, you know, empower other people to do what I do so that the fight you, I know I'm not going to achieve my goal in my lifetime so that I know the legacy I leave behind is me helping them empower themselves so that they can even empower other people and move it forward. So, that's the main thing I've learned is that we have to give people the power to have that voice. So, it isn't just about any one person, it's about empowering an entire demographic, if you will. Friedman: Well, thank you. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else that you would like to share today? Pronovost: Well, geez, we've covered so much. (both laugh). I don't know. I don't think so. I think we pretty much covered it. It's a lot to chew and digest, if you will. So, I think, I think we've done a good job. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So. Friedman: Well, thank you so much for speaking with me today, Leea. We are so happy to have you a part of this project. Pronovost: Yeah, my pleasure is so, um. I'm just happy to be here. Like I said, that that's my pet peeve. If I can do something to--I'm hoping this gets seen by as many people as it possibly can be. And it gives them the self-confidence in seeing somebody like me to empower themselves to find their voice. So. Friedman: Absolutely. Just continuing on with your, uh, with what you've been doing from the start, basically ever since you started in 2007, 2008. Yeah. Pronovost: Yeah. Friedman: Yeah. Well, thank you again. Pronovost: You're very welcome. And it's my pleasure and thank you for having me. Friedman: Well, it's our pleasure (both laugh). Leea Pronovost concludes the interview by summarizing what she has learned throughout her career working as an activist and the importance of intersectionality in LGBTQ+ advocacy. transgender ; transphobia Oral history Leea Pronovost is a transgender activist and has been advocating for transgender and LGBTQ+ rights since coming out after a near-death experience in 2006. Pronovost began her work in activism in Massachusetts and partnered with a variety of organizations where she worked to help the queer community in areas such as LGBTQ+ education, housing, and hospital rights. She also worked for the Transgender Law Center and the Trans Lifeline. Now residing in Vista, CA, Pronovost is a staff member at the North Country LGBTQ+ Resource Center, where she works as a case manager for Unicorn Homes, chairs the Gender Advocacy Project, and is a grant writer. Julia Friedman: Okay. Today is Friday, April eighth, 2022 at 10:02 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Leea Pronovost for the University Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Leea, thank you for being with me here today. Leea Pronovost: Oh, thank you for having me. Friedman: I would first like to start by asking when and where were you born? Pronovost: I was born in 1959, October second in Springfield, Massachusetts. Friedman: And can you please describe your childhood? Pronovost: (laughs) Well it wasn' ; t exactly a very pleasant childhood, let' ; s put it that way. One of my earliest memories was actually in 1963, I was four years old and at a Christmas party at my grandmother' ; s house. And I saw my grandmother used to give us little money cards every Christmas--all of her grandchildren. And I noticed my name on an envelope my mother was holding. And I asked her what that word was in front of my name. My grandmother had written " ; Master." ; And I didn' ; t know that word--I didn' ; t. So, she told me what it was, that it was a " ; Master" ; and what it stood for. And then I saw she had my little sister' ; s envelope in her hand and I asked her what was in front of my little sister' ; s name because of what' ; s different than mine. And, uh, it was " ; Miss" ; and I asked her what that meant. And I said, I basically said, " ; There' ; s something wrong here." ; And I think, " ; I' ; m supposed to be more like the ' ; Miss.' ; " ; (laughs) So after her explanation of which each one of those terms meant. As you can imagine that was 1963. So, (laughs) a whole different world. And my mother basically told me to shut up and never talk about it again. Which, you know, because we actually started getting into an argument about it in front of all my aunts and uncles and cousins. And so that' ; s why she told me that. And honestly, I never did talk with her about it again. She actually died before I ever had a chance to, so. That' ; s one of my earliest memories. After that it didn' ; t get much better dealing with that issue. I mean, I was raised very strict Catholic. I was an alter boy. I, um, in my teen year, even, I spent a lot of time in a Jesuit monastery trying to pray that away if you will. And even thought about going into the seminary at one point and becoming a Catholic priest. But I didn' ; t, I ended up joining the Navy. But that' ; s (laughs) another story. So, the--and my father wasn' ; t exactly the nicest of people. He was very much, as you can imagine, a bigoted person, against gays and people like me. I can remember being a kid and hearing about Christine Jorgensen [the first transgender woman in the United States to attain fame for receiving a sex reassignment surgery] and some of the remarks that my father talked to about when he referred to her and were--made me feel very terrible about myself because I knew that' ; s how I felt. So, it wasn' ; t an easy time, believe me. But that' ; s pretty much my basic childhood. Friedman: Well thank you for sharing that, Leea. I' ; m sorry that you had such a difficult time growing up. Pronovost: Well, it was a totally different world compared to what we have now. Being transgender wasn' ; t--I didn' ; t even, I don' ; t think that word even existed until, you know, the 1990s. At some point, I mean, people like me, they used to call them " ; transsexuals," ; which nowadays a lot of the trans community considers that a derogatory term, so. And--but that' ; s the way our society was back then. I mean, I can even tell you that in 1977, I joined the Navy, um, give you--for instance. And when I joined the Navy on my ASVAB, I scored in the top five percent in the nation and they gave me two strikes for going into bootcamp, one strike for coming out of bootcamp. And I was placed into, um, nuclear engineering program to be a nuclear engineer on a sub, and all my life, probably about 1965, I actually started cross dressing, borrowing my sister' ; s clothes, because it made me feel better. But yet there was a certain amount of shame with that. So--but that continued on even into the Navy. And I can remember being on a leave of absence, going to a bar dressed up, and coming out of the bar and being discovered by my commanding officer who then proceeded to file charges against me for crossdressing. And I ended up going through a court-marshal. So, push came to shove, they didn' ; t do what they call a Section 8 on me. What they did do was give me a personal hardship discharge, because they basically said they didn' ; t want " ; my kind" ; there. So, but it was very nerve-wracking. I can remember thinking--and I was living in Massachusetts at the time. I' ; m like thinking throughout the entire court-marshal worst case scenario, they Section 8 me, classify me as, you know, " ; mentally disturbed," ; because of my crossdressing. And if I had went back to Massachusetts with that on my discharge papers, they could have (laughs) at actually put me into a mental institution back then. They still had governmental-run mental institutions in Massachusetts then, and they were not a very pretty sight. And even with people like me, they would actually--and gay people--they would actually lobotomize them trying to " ; fix them," ; so to speak. So, (laugh) it wasn' ; t, it was a totally different world. And I can, you know, they appreciate all the things that, people like me and the whole, uh, gay movement, gay rights and people that fought for and the seventies and even into the eighties and are still fighting today. And I' ; m one of them. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: Because no matter how far we' ; ve come, there' ; s still much further to go. So. Friedman: I would actually like to switch gears if that' ; s okay and talk about your years in activism. You' ; ve been an activist within the transgender community for twelve years. When did you first decide to turn to activism? Pronovost: Well, after I felt--after I came out to everybody, um--let me explain. In 2006, I had a near death experience that actually--because as I told you, you know, from 1963 on--I knew something was different. 2006, I had a near death experience that caused me to look at what my life was about, who I am, why I survived. And I came to the realization that I had to do something about this. And I started my transition soon as I recovered from that, which was probably about a year after that. I was well enough to actually--I didn' ; t start hormones at that time, but I started looking at herbal supplements that would change my body. And I didn' ; t come out to everybody. My current ex-wife at the time, I did come out to her about changing. And she was okay with it as long as I didn' ; t tell anybody. She carried--being a Latin person, carried a certain stigmatization around who I was. So, um, but anyway, it took me a couple of years to get on hormones and there' ; s even stories there (laughs). I was actually denied my hormones at one point in time by my therapist, which really--I didn' ; t understand why. I understood that that was the laws. And then, you know, I' ; ve heard other stories of other going to support groups and talking to a therapist and learning how to come out to basically the world. And it troubled me how difficult it was. And that whole path of trying to-- knowing deep down inside (laughs) all my life, that something was different, just never realized what it was and because I grew up before internet. And so, it the only place I could find information was in a library. And I was too ashamed to go into a library and pull a book about transsexuals (laughs), you know? Especially with my Catholic upbringing. So, it was very difficult and there were many times that throughout my life that I actually tried to commit suicide because of that. Because I thought I was alone. I thought I different. I never knew there was people like me. And then finding all those hurdles that I had to jump through. And then at the same time, you know, I started discovering that the state that I live in, Massachusetts, didn' ; t even have any protections for transgender people. And if I tried to rent an apartment or buy a house, or, you know, get a job as a trans person, people could actually say " ; No," ; because I was transgender. So, these things really disturbed me down to my core because, you know, it is who I am. It is my identity. So, that' ; s what really got me to become more active and become an advocate and activist for the community because I wanted to make it better for the next people. I want to make it better for the next generation, so they don' ; t have to struggle like I did. Not knowing who they were. I wanted to give the trans community that visibility so that they have role models that can even, you know, that they can idolize basically, and say, " ; I want be like that person." ; Because as a youth, you know, I never had that. We, I mean, if you look in the sixties, seventies and eighties, the people that were portrayed as trans-- what we now call transgender or transsexuals-- in those times, they were either the joke of the movie or they were, you know, the crazed maniac killer (laughs), you know? And I would look at them and I would say, " ; Oh, that' ; s me when I grow up." ; But yet, then I find out that they' ; re either the joke or they' ; re, you know, the crazed maniac killer. And I' ; m like, " ; Okay, well, that' ; s not me." ; So, I' ; m not like that, but you know, here I am, that' ; s who I was. So, I wanted to be able to give, you know, the next generation, the next batch of people, because I--after going to a bunch of support groups for being transgender-- I realized that I wasn' ; t alone and there' ; s a lot more people out there that are like me. And once I started doing my history research, you know, of transgender people--for instance, we' ; ve been around forever. I mean, I can tell you, in the Neolithic Age there was art drawings on cave walls of a third sex. And, you know, that date back to about 7,000 BC. So, (laughs) people like me, I' ; ve been around forever (laughs). It' ; s just so something that hasn' ; t been known, that' ; s all, at least to the Western world. Because you take, you know--actually to be truthful with you, I identify as Two Spirit. The Indigenous people--not just here in North America--but Indigenous people all around the world have some of them have multiple genders. Two Spirit is an in North American Indigenous term that encompasses some tribes have as many as five genders, some three genders. Friedman: Wow. Pronovost: There' ; s some tribes that don' ; t even acknowledge gender. Men and women didn' ; t have specific rules, if you will. I know of a tribe in Africa that, you know--I met a girl years ago, a trans girl from Africa. She had no concept of what he/she [pronouns] meant. They only had one pronoun for all people in her language. So, it was very difficult for her and even than her mother to understand that concept when they moved here to the United States. So. Friedman: Wow. That' ; s really interesting. And I' ; m glad that you finally found a community when you first came out. When you first started, um, your working in activism, did you partner with any organizations during these early years and what type-- what type of activities did you participate in? Pronovost: Oh, I partnered with many organizations to be truthful with you. One of the first groups--the two first groups that I partnered with were a group called Tri Ess [an international support group for heterosexual cross-dressers and their partners and families.]. It was actually started in the 1950s by a woman named Virginia Prince. Basically, that was for, in her terms, heterosexual cross-dressers. Although once I became involved in the club, found out that there were a lot of transgender people within the organization that wanted to actually transition. Not that I wouldn' ; t say myself, I would say that cross-dressers do fall under the trans umbrellas, so to speak. So, but, some, some of them don' ; t agree with that, some of them do agree with it. Some of them think they' ; re the only true trans people, when you really get down to the nitty gritty. One of the other main things was the transgender group of Pioneer Valley in Massachusetts. I--that was a peer support group and we were active in helping others find out that--because one of the toughest things that I found was in talking to new people as they come into the groups that they always thought they were alone as well. Because they never knew anybody that was like them. So, you know, that made such a difference for me in my life to realize all of a sudden, " ; Hey, they' ; re like me and you know what, they' ; re okay. That' ; s an engineer, that' ; s a medical doctor and that' ; s a lawyer," ; you know? " ; This person, you know, is, you know, just a normal average person living their life (laughs) so it' ; s not so bad." ; So, it made such a difference in the world for me that it, you know, it just, it seemed like common sense to move into it. And then I mean, I blossomed into a bunch of other organizations. I, uh, (laughs), I didn' ; t start my transition into late in life, as you can imagine. Born in [19]59 and starting in 2007. It was forty-seven or forty-eight years old or something like that. But the thing is it, they, it--I wanted to do as much as I could for, or wherever. And so not being of (laughs)--I decided to help another group called Rainbow Elders. That was a nonprofit group run by, uh, not another nonprofit, that they did stuff for seniors. I can' ; t remember their name off of top of my head, but it-- we used to do things like go out on panels and teach medical facilities. We would teach nursing homes. We would teach assisted living centers. We were teaching people in, um, it just reaching out to all sorts of businesses and stuff and doing panels and educating them about the LBGT experience by telling our stories. Then, you know, I joined another group over at UMass Amherst and, I--that was the Stonewall Speakers Bureau. And they were very active within the GSAs [Gay Straight Alliance]. So, I used to go out to all the GSAs, whether it was a grammar school, middle school, junior high school, high school, and sometimes even other colleges, asking us to come out and speak to gender-related studies and/or education of the faculty. So, and then I started--because the group--that Pioneer Valley group and the Tri Ess group that I first started with--one of them was up in New Hampshire, even though I lived in Massachusetts and the other one was in the Southern part of Massachusetts. So, I was having a drive, you know, anywhere from forty-five minutes to an hour, sometimes even two hours to go to a meeting. So, I decided to create my own peer support group, which I partnered with a hospital in Western Mass[achussets] in the county that I was in, Franklin County in Greenfield Mass. And they gave me a place to work with and a small budget. And I was able to start a group that actually still runs today, even though I' ; m here in California now. So, then because I also became part of what was known as the Massachusetts Transgendered Political Coalition, which in 2011, we ended up fighting for transgender rights. They made us actually take off on the bill by the time it--in order to get it out of committee, we had to take off transgender public accommodations rights. But it--bill did still encompass our rights to financial institutions, our rights for housing, our rights for, uh, financial housing and employment. Those were the three main rights that we were fighting for. Which it did end up getting passed in 2011 by the end of that year. Uh, they became-- (both talking at once) Friedman: (both talking at once)--Oh, congratulations. Pronovost: Yeah, thanks. But then again, in another organization that I became part of back in 2016, I helped to--we went back and lobbied or advocated for the state government to include transgender public accommodations, which would give us the--most people think, " ; Oh, that' ; s the bathroom stuff and locker room stuff," ; but there' ; s so much more to it when you really sit down and think about it. The right to ride on a public transportation, the right to, (laughs), let' ; s say I worked in a restaurant. If I punched out my time card to go out the back employee door and walk around to the front of that restaurant that hired me, they still have the right to refuse to serve me. Those are actually public accommodations. The right to be served in a hospital, you know? Many times throughout the years that I' ; ve worked, I' ; ve had myself and my friends have had discrimination by going to a hospital. I had one friend that they fell down on black ice and she got taken away on an ambulance and when they tore off or cut off her clothes, they found that she had a penis. And the doctor just looked at her and said--and then looked at the nurses and said, " ; Get that thing out of my hospital." ; So, she--they called for another ambulance to take her to another hospital. Nowadays, because of that (unintelligible) she' ; s permanently disabled, because she didn' ; t receive the proper attention. And now, you know, we as taxpayers are paying to support her because of that discrimination. And so, things like that just didn' ; t make any sense to me. So, you know, it made sense to go back and fight. So, we formed another organization called Freedom Massachusetts. And we fought for trans rights and we won them. But also, because of all that other activism, I had other organizations like PFLAG [organization dedicated to supporting the LGBTQ+ community ; formally known as Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays] and, uh, PFLAG in two separate counties, both of them had asked me on to be on their board of directors. So, I ended up being on their board of directors at the same time about the--that same time I had many friends that I lost over the years in the support groups. And when I say I lost them, I mean that they took their own lives. And they' ; re no longer here. And prior to my transition, I never knew anybody that committed suicide. Now, all of a sudden in the few short years that I was out as a trans person, I knew more than half a dozen. And I just felt that was wrong. So, I had heard about a organization called Trans Lifeline, and I actually became an operator for them. And because I, myself, (laughs), had, as I told you before, early in my life, I didn' ; t know how to deal with this. I didn' ; t know there were other people like me, there were a few times that I' ; d tried to commit suicide. So, and if I-- so if I could prevent one trans person from (laughs) stop--help-- stop them from committing suicide, then, you know, that would make me feel great. So, I spent a number of years as an operator, and then I actually became a team lead for a bunch of operators. Actually, even given peer support to the operators, because if you can imagine Trans Lifeline was an organization that was created by transgender people, for trans gender people. And the only criteria was that you had to be trans to be an operator. What helped was, though most of the operators were ones that had tried to commit suicide at one point or another. And sometimes when you' ; re talking somebody down from a suicidal attempt, it brings you yourself into some pretty dark places. So, the operators would definitely need some, you know, self-care and guidance to get back to a point where they can do self-care even. And I know that I have many cases that led me into dark places that I didn' ; t want to go, but yet, I went there to try and make sure, and it makes a difference. It really does, the peer thing, because I' ; ve never lost anyone when I was talking with them. When an individual that' ; s on that brink or on that fence, or standing on that (laughs) that [precipice] to jump, if you will. Having somebody else talk to you, that' ; s been there and been through what your experiencing, makes a huge difference. And they open up and listen. And then they also feel much easier to open up to you so that they can pour those feelings out and step off that [precipice]. So, that was really nice work for me. And then the next thing that I (laughs) became active in was the Transgender Law Center up in Oakland, California. I started volunteering for what they call the Detention Project. The Detention Project is basically--there' ; s a lot of transgender people within our prison system that either wanted to transition or had already started their transition and they' ; re wondering, you know, " ; Here you have this trans woman sitting in a male jail, what are her rights?" ; Um, you know, and, " ; Can she have her name change? Can she get women' ; s clothing? Can be isolated so she' ; s protected away from the general population?" ; All of these things and Transgender Law Center addresses all of those issues. I was basically a research person for the lawyers and I would actually go and research each individual state' ; s laws pertaining to the detention of transgender people, and then compose letters. And the lawyers would then approve or ask me, you know, change this, change that. And then we would issue the letters back to the inmates, so that they knew what their rights were and how to fund those rights. So, which meant a lot to me (laughs) the next step phase in my, uh, was actually working with the local because I was doing on the national level. And I started working with the local county jails and state prisons, and department of corrections. And I helped them to write--I helped both Massachusetts and Connecticut to write their policies on transgender people. And then--the same way with most of the county jail systems, I helped them to write--and I ran peer support groups within the county jails as well, so. Then I met a woman online (laughs) and moved out here to California (laughs). Well, it, it took a while. It took a few years, it--we had a Coast-to-Coast relationship, and we developed this great relationship. And we decided to take it to the next level and move in together. And I tried to get her to come out to Massachusetts, but one point she came out and it was minus--the high temperature was minus fifteen degrees. And this was the week between Christmas and New Year' ; s. So, she was like, " ; No, no, no, no." ; (both laugh) So, of course I' ; ve moved out here, and been living here ever since then. But before I even moved out, once we made that decision to move out here, I was like, " ; You know, I' ; m an--I' ; m an advocate and activist. What do you have out there that I can get involved with?" ; So, she introduced me to the North County--she was living in Oceanside at the time, and she introduced me to the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. So, I met Max Disposti, the Director and Founder of the place. And I was like, " ; What can I do to come?" ; (laughs) You know? " ; What can I do when I get out here?" ; (laughs) " ; Where can I go?" ; He' ; s like, " ; Don' ; t worry, we' ; ll put you to work." ; So, (both laugh) soon as I moved out here, they had an opening for the Unicorn Homes program, which being a case manager for that program, it was only fifteen hours a week. But, to start, and I was like, " ; Hey, it' ; s along the lines," ; because a lot of times running the peer support group in prisons, I was helping people do a lot of navigate social services that they would need getting out of jail. So, it wasn' ; t too far of a fetch for me to be able to help people, you know, navigate applying for Medi-Cal or, you know, Cal Fresh or being there just to listen and try to help homeless youth. And one of the things, even in Massachusetts, that one of my goals was eventually to create a transgender housing service. So, when I moved here and I had that opportunity to join something like this, I jumped on it. And Max liked what he saw in all the volunteer work that I did. So, he hired me for the position, even though there were a number of other candidates, I received the job. And I just started doing a whole bunch of free work for them (laughs). Because this is where my passion is. In the meantime, you know, I had been, you know, I still own property back East in Massachusetts, rental property. And, you know, I had a nice package of--so I wasn' ; t worried about money or anything. So, why not work where my heart is? Nowadays though, I do a whole bunch of other things for The Center. I manage most of the grants for The Center. I also, now am, uh, Gender Advocacy Project Chair person for the Gender Advocacy Project, which puts on a number of events a year they do--we just recently had the Transgender Day of Visibility a couple weekends ago. Well, this weekend will be two weekends ago. Which was a wonderful event. We had, I don' ; t know if I had to guess probably around 200, maybe 300 people come through and a bunch of booth with resources. And we had a great show. We had speakers and musicians and playing, and we had fun and games for the youth, and it was just a wonderful weekend. Wonderful day. But, so. Gender Advocacy Project also does Transgender Day of Remembrance. And, which is in November twentieth and a rather somber day for us because we' ; re remembering those that we lost through transphobic violence. And the past few years have been actually kind of tough because the numbers have gone up astronomically in 2020, if I remember correctly, there was forty-one or forty-two, and in 2021, I believe there was fifty-six trans women. Now when I say these numbers, they seem like small numbers compared to a nationwide thing, but those are the ones that we actually know. Which, you know, a lot of times the gender is not known and, and they--or, and/or they misgender the person because the family doesn' ; t want them to know about it. So, that number, even though the known cases keeps going up, I' ; m sure it' ; s at least doubled if not tripled. So for-- for supposedly, according to the statistics, there' ; s less than one percent of people are transgender throughout the nation. So, for that small amount of people to be targeted, the numbers of murders like that--violent murders--basically hate crimes, in my opinion, that' ; s an astronomical amount. When you start looking at the statistics and the breakouts. Especially that most of those numbers, you know--I carry a certain amount of privilege because I' ; m a white transgender woman--or I appear to be white. I do have some American heritage, um, Indigenous blood in me. But that' ; s something that people don' ; t see because I appear to be white. So, therefore I' ; ve got a certain amount of privilege. I know that. When I look at a trans woman of color, those are the ones that are targeted when you look at those people that we honor year after year after year. It' ; s usually Black or Brown people, and occasionally an Indigenous person in there. But, um, and sprinkled with a few Caucasian people. So, you know, it' ; s so that when you look at that target population, that number, even it' ; s more astronomical, when you break it down to what I call the " ; intersectionality of marginalizations." ; So, you know, that' ; s why that particular day is so important to me, even though it' ; s a somber day. And I' ; m glad that we celebrate that and celebrate those lives that we lost. I' ; m hoping one day (laughs) and trying to do our best by fighting the hate. One of the grants that the North County LGBTQ Resource Center just got it is--we got a bunch of money into actually--and that' ; s what the grant is called, " ; Fight the Hate." ; (laughs) So, you know, it' ; s an honor for me to be doing this work and nowadays I' ; m actually paid full time for what I do, because I do the grants. I do the Unicorn Homes. I' ; m also the Gender Advocacy Project Chair. I' ; m also--it, I never mentioned what I did prior to, well, while all that activation was going on, activism and advocacy work was going on, I actually worked a full-time job in telecommunications. I was a Level III Telecommunications Engineer. So, now I do all the IT work (laughs) at The Center as well. So, (both laugh), anything I can do for the community, you know, to make their life better. And, you know, I' ; m, uh, want to, you know, the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, I feel like I' ; m privileged to be able to work there, to be honest with you. And to be able to work in such a queer environment where I don' ; t have to face what all my siblings face on a daily basis, you know? Because, despite all the work that we' ; ve done, there' ; s still a lot of stigmatization, and even hatred of the trans community. It' ; s funny how, you know, one of the things, when you' ; ve learned the history, it was, you know, of the entire gay rights movement. One of--they say that turning point was Stonewall, right? Well, the first person to actually throw something at the police was actually a transgender woman. And the other trans girls started in. And then if you know, I know people that were actually there and they told me that basically the lesbians then started joining in. And it was at the encouragement of the lesbians that the gay men finally stood up and started doing something against the police. So, if you look at that in its context who, it--that key moment who was the first trans woman? But in gay rights movements, we were left behind. We were taken out because we were so controversial and they wouldn' ; t be able to get their rights. That' ; s what we were told as trans women or transgender people. If we were in clumped in with them, you know? So, even though we were there at the beginning and even well before that, you know, a lot of--there, there were riots all over the country, you know? If you look at San Francisco, if you look at Miami, there were riots in gay bars where trans women--and trans women were the target, because a lot of the women, because they couldn' ; t get jobs were street workers. So, therefore they' ; re trying to pick up these supposedly " ; men" ; that dress as " ; women," ; which at the time was against the law, working as a sex worker. So, it' ; s because of that attraction that the trans women stood up and then the lesbians stood up with them, and then the gay guys stood up with them. And yet, here they are fighting for their rights and telling us to step back. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: You know, it just didn' ; t make sense. And believe it or not, there' ; s still quite a few lesbian--for instance, I' ; m with another woman, I consider--I' ; m sexually attracted to other women. I' ; m romantically attracted to other women. Not so much with the guys. So, I consider myself basically a lesbian. There' ; s a lot of lesbians out there that would tell me I' ; m not a lesbian because I' ; m a trans woman. These are what we would call TERFS: trans-exclusionary radical feminists. And they' ; re out there all over the world, you know? One of the most famous and most recent news is J.K. Rowling. (laughs) Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, (laughs) despite all the love for, you know, the Harry Potter stories, I have to disagree with her principles. So, you know, so there' ; s still--my point is despite all the fighting and activism and how far we' ; ve actually come, we still have a huge way to go. So Friedman: That actually leads me to my next question. Um, do you think creating an inclusive society is achievable? Pronovost: (both laugh) Honestly, I hope so. You know, one of the latest endeavors that I' ; ve looked into is--and I hope I' ; m not premature in saying this. I' ; ve been appointed, still yet to be confirmed--a Senior Commissioner for the City of--Senior Affairs Commissioner for the City of Vista. So, I' ; m doing my part to hopefully make that true. I don' ; t think it' ; ll happen in my lifetime. I am much older than (laughs) most people nowadays. I am a senior, hence why I' ; m on that (laughs) Senior Affairs Commission. Or want to be on it. So, and as of lately, there' ; s more and more transgender people within the political scheme, trying to fight the battle from within, which will hopefully eventually bring that about. I mean, that' ; s my ultimate goal. One of the reasons why I do stuff like this, this oral history presentation, or any of my activism--a lot of it is educational. I have a pet peeve that, you know, education brings in tolerance. Tolerance can achieve, hopefully, acceptance. And once acceptance is there, in a general population, then the next thing that that should beget is inclusion. And that' ; s where me, that' ; s my goal. (laughs) Since coming out and becoming an activist, that' ; s--that' ; s my life--that' ; s my life goal, if you will. I know I probably will not see it in my lifetime within the next twenty or so years. I hope we still achieve, you know, steps moving in that direction as we go. One of the things that the Biden administration just recently did, was give, uh, make the announcement on Transgender Day of Visibility, which is March thirty-first. They made an announcement that they were going to allow an X marker on the passports for a third gender. They were going to make it much easier for a person like me who, you know, I was identified male at birth, but yet, I' ; m a woman, make it much easier for somebody like me to change that name and gender marker on the passport. Another thing that they were planning on doing was one of the really bad areas that--and a lot of us had been fighting against this, the TSA--when you go through TSA screening in an airport and you have the x-ray, um, it' ; s happened to me, you know? I identify as a woman, all my IDs are women and they see something down below. And they call you out, " ; Hey, we' ; ve got an anomaly. You need to step aside over here and we need to get somebody to physically search you." ; Friedman: That' ; s awful. Pronovost: So, they' ; re going to do away with that genderized screening. Which is an awesome thing. Finally, thank God. Because it' ; s so embarrassing, you know, when that happens. And it happens to so many people, it' ; s ridiculous what we have to endure and by being identified that way. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, that, that was a step in the right direction. They' ; re looking at making the Affordable Care Act more inclusive for gender treatment, especially one of the things that we recently did as the Gender Advocacy Project, which is the program of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. I--one of my volunteers put together a list of all the state bills. For instance--what I mean by that is, last year in 2021, we had one hundred and ninety-one hate bills. Most of them were targeting transgender people. And in particular transgendered youth and their ability to receive transgender healthcare. Me, working on Trans Lifeline, know that most of those phone calls that I used to get in on Trans Lifeline are trans youth, anticipating and wanting to commit suicide. If they were accepted and were allowed to get their hormones, though, those numbers would drop drastically. And we have the statistics to back that up. But here, these states are wanting to outlaw and actually go even--go after doctors. And look at Texas. Texas wants to, you know, go after the parents saying that gender-affirmation healthcare for their child is actually child abuse, you know? So, one of the things the Biden administration said was they were going to fight, that they were going to make the Affordable Care Act to protect so that doctors don' ; t have to report that to state agencies. Because they, you know, the state agencies, the state Texas--state of Texas, was forcing the doctors to violate people' ; s HIPAA rights. I mean, they have no right to that information, but yet the state' ; s forcing the doctors to turn that over. HIPAA' ; s a national law, It' ; s not a state law (laughs). They shouldn' ; t be able to bypass federal laws. So, the Biden administration, uh, pledge to make it more difficult for states to be able to do stuff like that. You look at the " ; Don' ; t Say Gay Bill" ; in Florida [SB 1834: Parental Rights in Education], you know? Ohio just came out with a bill last week--or just earlier this week, I forget which--that basically mimics the exact wording of Florida' ; s bill. And no one, the state of Ohio and who they are and their history, that will pass, you know? So, we' ; re going to have a couple of states that, you know, people are not allowed to say " ; You' ; re gay." ; There' ; s another state in Utah. Utah wrote a bill that' ; s very similar to Texas' ; s bill about transgender healthcare, but it actually even encompasses adults. So, they want to make it illegal to be me (laughs), you know? And force--trying to force us to go back into the closet, so to speak. Because like I said, you know, one of the thing, one of their arguments is, " ; Oh, it' ; s become a ' ; popular thing.' ; " ; It' ; s not popular. You just never knew what the real numbers were because we were all hiding away in the closet. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, you know. These are thing-- that' ; s why I say we still have so far to go. This particular year though, in the first three months of this year, we have two hundred and thirty-eight hate bills. So, we even-- last year was a record year with all the hate bills, but in three months' ; time, we have surpassed all of the bills from last year. So, they' ; re--the thing that I' ; m looking at is I' ; m hoping this is like the last grasp (laughs) of them. (both laugh), you know? Their desperation before they fall down into the cracking crevice and go wherever. Friedman: I hope. Pronovost: (laughs) Go away. Yeah. Well, that' ; s my hope (laughs). Because, you know, if you look at the statistics throughout the entire United States as a nation, over sixty percent of the nation is for transgendered people and having our rights or rights in particular of LGBT people. So, that' ; s more than half the population. So eventually I know we will get there because that acceptance number and because, you know, I see the trends: tolerance, acceptance, then inclusion. I know we' ; ll get there, but we still have so far to go. So, um, yeah. I hope that--I hope that answers your question (laughs). Friedman: Oh, absolutely. Kind of going back to politics, Like throughout your time, working on the East Coast and the West Coast, have you kind of noticed a difference in the politics working on both Coasts? Or, has it just kind of depended, um, kind of like the political shifts because you kind of were mostly on the on the East Coast? Um, is it kind of-- does it not really matter because you kind of just, you mostly on the East Coast for most of your life and--? Pronovost: Um, be honest with you, knowing, I don' ; t think it' ; s that much of a difference here, you know. Here at times, I think there' ; s certain pockets you, that if you will, that are actually inclusive. When I look at the city of Oceanside, for instance, you know? I had mayor Esther Sanchez come out to Transgender Day of Visibility and she gave a speech about being visible and standing up for what' ; s right, you know? And, so I see Oceanside as a pocket, but yet, when I look at a city like Vista where I actually live, you know? Vista is, you know, for lack of better terminology, very conservative. But then there' ; s even worse conservative areas. Like, you start pushing up into Menifee or something like that, you know? You' ; re looking at very, um, I don' ; t like to use this because I don' ; t like to use somebody' ; s name, but it very much what most of us within the community would consider to be Trumpers or people that propagate hate. And I hate using that because I don' ; t like to talk about individuals or refer to that. But that term, let' ; s take it away from the person because that term existed, uh, " ; Trumping somebody" ; is overcoming is somebody. So that' ; s what I mean by that terminology, more or less. Where they are totally conservative. And actually, even don' ; t like people like me. You know, I' ; ve had people up there in that city actually reach out to me saying they' ; re having troubles with their school systems. Now here in California, for a transgender person and they should--a student should be able to change their name on all information except for their transcripts. That' ; s the only thing that they can' ; t change because that' ; s a legal document, but they should be able to walk in without the school notifying the parents that, " ; Hey, I no longer want to be called Jane. I want to be called Max." ; And the school legally is obligated to change their paperwork. Friedman: I see. Pronovost: But yet that' ; s not happening in a city like that. I get phone calls quite often saying that the school is fighting the individual or the school has actually outed the individual to the parents, even. Because some of these schools aren' ; t, you know, minors are even protected from this, the school is not supposed to out the youth. But yet here we have it happening, you know? And you know, it--so the hate and the stigmatization and the indignities and the discrimination still happens. No matter where you are and back East, I happen to live in a pocket--that Pioneer Valley group that I belong to. That' ; s the whole Connecticut River Valley area throughout all of Western Mass. And that was very progressive. I mean, we--there' ; s a town called Northampton there, which it is kind of, uh, was the gay city for the East Coast kind of equivalent to what San Francisco is to here. So, it' ; s mainly a college town, but that made the entire whole (laughs), excuse me, for lack of better terminology, Pioneer Valley seemed very, uh, " ; granola-ish," ; if you will. Originally Pioneer Valley, that whole Connecticut River Valley, those were the first communes back in the sixties. They started there and then moved out here to the West Coast. So, (laughs), very similar, you know, because even in Massachusetts, you still had your pockets of hate and bigotry and, so. It' ; s very similar. The fight' ; s the same, no matter where (laughs) I seem to go. But, you know, the goal is to get more cities, you know, to be like Oceanside, you know? Because Oceanside they' ; ve raise, you know, they do raise a pride flag. Here in Vista, the pride flag that (laughs) that rainbow flag' ; s never been raised here in the City of Vista. And so, you know, I' ; m hoping that maybe sitting on one of the commissions, (laughs) I can change that (laughs) from within. And so, you know. Friedman: Well, I just have one more question. Pronovost: Okay. Friedman: Um, so you, you' ; ve already talked about it. You have a wonderful year--a wonderful career in activism. What have you learned throughout your twelve years working in the trans and LGBT field of activism? Pronovost: Oh, (laughs), I' ; ve learned so much it' ; s hard to pinpoint any one thing. I think the one that weighs the heaviest on my heart, if you will, is probably--you know, one of the things that early on people did mention about the intersectionality of marginalizations and now that I' ; ve had, you know, more than ten years at this, I actually get to see it. And that breaks my heart. How, you know, for instance, you know, I worked as a Telecom Engineer and I was the Senior Telecom Engineer for one of the world' ; s largest telecommunications companies, Nippon Telephone and Telegraph [Nippon Telegraph and Telephone]. The first time I walked into an engineering meeting as me, as Leea, they looked at me like, you know, I-- " ; Where where' ; s the donuts and coffee?" ; (laughs). That was the type of look I got. And, " ; Who the hell are you to be sitting here in this engineering meeting?" ; When, you know, before I used to lead the engineering meeting, you know? So, I know the difference between being a man in a man' ; s field and being a woman trying to make it in a man' ; s field. And, and so I don' ; t--[connection froze]--People that I serve doing what I do and I look at, you know, a trans woman of color, and I see how much more discrimination that they actually face. Because of that intersectionality. Now you start adding more intersectionalities on top of that, such as being disabled or mentally disabled, you know? Disadvantaged. That--those numbers not only do--I mean, they grow exponentially and that' ; s what weighs really heavy on my heart. And now I see that so much more easily, and makes me want to fight all that much or for them, you know? But also at the same time, you know, being--working at the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, and seeing other people fight for, you know, my rights as a trans woman, I want to say, you know, not for me, without me, you know? So that' ; s one of--that ties well into the intersectionality thing. So, you know, I know I can' ; t go out there. I can mention about it, but I can' ; t go out there and say, " ; You know, we need more protections for trans women of color." ; I can say that, but, you know, I don' ; t experience that because I do have that privilege. I can talk from that privilege that we need to do something about it, you know? So, but I want those, I want to be able to empower those trans women of color to come forward and speak up for themselves. I want to, you know, empower other people to do what I do so that the fight you, I know I' ; m not going to achieve my goal in my lifetime so that I know the legacy I leave behind is me helping them empower themselves so that they can even empower other people and move it forward. So, that' ; s the main thing I' ; ve learned is that we have to give people the power to have that voice. So, it isn' ; t just about any one person, it' ; s about empowering an entire demographic, if you will. Friedman: Well, thank you. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else that you would like to share today? Pronovost: Well, geez, we' ; ve covered so much. (both laugh). I don' ; t know. I don' ; t think so. I think we pretty much covered it. It' ; s a lot to chew and digest, if you will. So, I think, I think we' ; ve done a good job. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So. Friedman: Well, thank you so much for speaking with me today, Leea. We are so happy to have you a part of this project. Pronovost: Yeah, my pleasure is so, um. I' ; m just happy to be here. Like I said, that that' ; s my pet peeve. If I can do something to--I' ; m hoping this gets seen by as many people as it possibly can be. And it gives them the self-confidence in seeing somebody like me to empower themselves to find their voice. So. Friedman: Absolutely. Just continuing on with your, uh, with what you' ; ve been doing from the start, basically ever since you started in 2007, 2008. Yeah. Pronovost: Yeah. Friedman: Yeah. Well, thank you again. Pronovost: You' ; re very welcome. And it' ; s my pleasure and thank you for having me. Friedman: Well, it' ; s our pleasure (both laugh). https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Pronovost, Leea. Interview April 8, 2022
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Leea Pronovost was a transgender activist and has advocated for transgender and LGBTQIA+ rights since coming out after a near-death experience in 2006. Pronovost began her work in activism in Massachusetts and partnered with a variety of organizations where she worked to help the queer community in areas such as LGBTQ+ education, housing, and hospital rights. She also worked for the Transgender Law Center and the Trans Lifeline. Most recently residing in Vista, CA, Pronovost was a staff member at the North Country LGBTQ+ Resource Center, where she worked as a case manager for Unicorn Homes, chaired the Gender Advocacy Project, and was a grant writer.
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SC027-18
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LGBTQ+ activism
LGBTQ+ rights
Transgender people -- Civil rights
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2022-04-08
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video
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Leea Pronovost
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Julia Friedman
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San Diego (Calif.)
Springfield (Mass.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Leea Pronovost
Activists and activism
Community history
History Department internship
LGBTQIA+ experience
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Oral History
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Julia Friedman
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Tanis Brown
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5.4 Unknown Date Oral history of Tanis Brown, April 13, 2022 SC027-20 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. California State University San Marcos San Marcos (Calif.) -- History San Marcos Historical Society -- California -- San Marcos Tanis Brown Julia Friedman BrownTanis_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-13.mp4 1:|16(5)|27(8)|42(8)|51(1)|62(5)|70(10)|81(6)|88(14)|99(9)|108(14)|120(12)|134(9)|142(8)|153(6)|160(6)|174(3)|181(10)|188(9)|197(10)|205(9)|213(13)|224(4)|236(5)|242(6)|252(3)|261(5)|270(14)|279(5)|289(12)|300(5)|306(16)|315(2)|324(1)|329(14)|336(10)|344(4)|354(10)|366(15)|374(2)|381(3)|392(1)|404(14)|419(1)|427(2)|437(4)|445(2)|452(10)|464(2)|469(5)|476(9)|486(11)|494(8)|503(7)|512(3)|520(16)|535(1)|542(3)|548(6)|554(3)|563(15)|569(6)|573(12)|589(7)|597(2)|605(7)|614(1)|620(7)|626(5)|633(13)|643(10)|651(14)|659(15)|666(10)|674(3)|686(2) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/3b6624b33deba86cb7ceb886c3d6cec2.mp4 Other video 0 Moving to San Marcos, CA / Involvement in the San Marcos Community Julia Friedman: Today is Wednesday, April 13th, 2022, at 9:58 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Tanis Brown for the University Library Special Collections Oral History project. Tanis, thank you for being here with me today. Tanis Brown: Oh, thank you. Hang on just a minute. I have to—all right. Friedman: Perfect. I would like to start by discussing your early days in the city of San Marcos, California. Why did you first move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, I first came to San Marcos in 1976 in the kind of summertime. We moved to San Marcos from Escondido. Friedman: And why did you move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, my husband and I had kind of outgrown our house in Escondido and we were looking—he was looking for a little more yard space so he could start to garden. And so, we were looking for a little bit larger house with a little more backyard. Friedman: And what were your first impressions of the city? Brown: Well, when we were looking at houses, I can remember my husband telling the realtor, “I'm not sure we want to live in San Marcos. It's kind of the boonies, isn't it?” And, at that time, San Marcos was certainly not the city it is today. It was a lot more rural. Many, many mobile home parks, about twelve if I remember correctly. Only four to five elementary schools and we had two children in school, so we were looking for, you know, a close-by school and again. So, taking some choices about, well, do we want a little bit bigger yard or do we want to stay in a more developed city, like Escondido? And I'm certainly glad that we opted to move to San Marcos. Friedman: That's great. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: How did you first become involved in the community of San Marcos during your first years in the city? Brown: Okay, so, right after we moved to San Marcos, I enrolled in an early childhood development course at Palomar college. I had been teaching preschool for a number of years and the first night of class, the teacher said the city of San Marcos is looking for a preschool teacher for their Raggedy Anne and Andy Program, which was very popular. It was expanding at that time. And so, I went the next day and put in an application and ended up getting a job with the city right away within the first couple of months. And so, it was a wonderful opportunity to meet people that worked for the city. Our location was where San Marcos City Hall is now, but the building was the red barn that is now located at Walnut Grove Park, that was where all the city recreation programs were hosted out of. That was the main office for our park and recreation program. So, I started working for the Raggedy Anne and Andy Program and was able to meet a lot of people that worked for the city at that time. And that was kind of our first introduction. And because we were such a small community, a couple of the city council people had their children enrolled in our ragged Anne and Andy program. So immediately, I met two or three city council people and through their children. So that's kind of our quick introduction. And I remember thinking, “Oh my gosh, I grew up in San Diego. I never ever knew anybody who's elected to anything.” And here we are, serving, the city council members’ children. So, it was a very close connection to the local government. Friedman: Have you remained within those organizations? Brown: Yes. So, in addition, I only were worked for the city for about a little bit over a year because, we lived overseas shortly after that, but when I came back, I had already been familiar with the park and recreation program. So, I applied to be a commissioner for the park and recreation program, which is an advisory commission for the city of San Marcos, overseeing the parks and recreation. And I was appointed to that and it was a perfect timing because the city was growing quite a bit and we were developing new parks. So, we went from three parks to eight parks to twelve parks, and I ended up sitting on that commission for over twenty years. So, it was really a great time to watch the city not only develop, but also plan for open space, parks, trails, that kept up with the development of additional housing. Tanis Brown describes why her family moved to San Marcos, CA and how she first became involved in the community. Advisory commission ; Education ; Parks and Recreation ; San Marcos (Calif.) 377 Experience as Member of First Graduating Class at CSUSM Friedman: That's wonderful. Oh my goodness. So, you really saw the city expand in just your first few years in San Marcos. And then shortly after, you enrolled in Cal State San Marcos [California State University San Marcos]. You were among the first class to enroll in 1989. Why did you decide to attend the university? Brown: (laughs) Well, my other--one of the other hats that I have worn for many years is the San Marcos Historical Society. And through that organization, I got to be involved with the Chamber of Commerce. We had a reciprocal agreement and I was attending a lot of Chamber events, and I was lucky enough to meet Richard Rush, who was the Dean of the North San Diego campus at that time. And he kept talking about, you know, they were going to have, well at one point, it was going to be a San Diego State satellite campus up in North County. And, you know, just a lot about that. So, I got to know him fairly well. And then, in 1989, when San Marcos was going to be the host city for the university, I thought, “Well, I better get in on the ground floor of this.” So, I applied to go take all my many, many undergraduate units and apply them towards a degree. All my kids were now in school. Perfect timing. So, I applied to go to be in the first graduating class of Cal State San Marcos. So, it was wonderful. And I can remember in my first--one of my first classes on the first day, Dick Rush came in and waved, sat and waved out the window. So it was, it was like, “Oh, this is great, this feels like home.” So, it was--it was very comfortable. Friedman: Oh, that's wonderful. Because I understand that the original campus was a storefront property while the permanent one was being built across town. Can you discuss what it was like attending CSUSM [California State University San Marcos] during those early days as a university? Brown: Yes, we called it Cal State Jerome’s [CSUSM was located near to a Jerome’s furniture store] and we were in industrial park and, there were very few classes. I remember we didn't have a full compliment of majors like we do now. And the first several years of campus life were only upper-class juniors and seniors, as well as teaching programs. So, we had only upper division classes and every semester there were only so many classes for each department. So pretty much everybody who was in one class was in all your classes together, depending on what your major was. So, we really got to know one another and there was a lot of camaraderie between the faculty, the students, the staff, because we were all about the same age. The average age of students in the first few years of Cal State San Marcos was thirty-nine years old. So, you can imagine that, we--some of us were older than our faculty members, our professors, and certainly had a lot of a local experience. But most people, it was most certainly a commuter campus. There wasn't much campus life. Friedman: What did you major in? Brown: Well, I was an English major with a minor in women's studies. Friedman: That's great. And how many students were enrolled in your cohort, or in your class? Brown: I think our first graduating class was between ninety and ninety-five, something like that. So, we all fit in Craven Circle, in three rows of chairs, just about. Friedman: I was actually expecting it to be a little smaller, but that's actually really interesting. Could you elaborate a little more on the comradery amongst your classmates? Kind of like, what was the culture like in general within your cohort? Brown: Well, like I say, most students were, you know, adults who have lots of other stuff going on. Most people were working, or parents, or involved in community activities or especially jobs. We were all [reentering]--most of us were reentry students. And so, in addition to taking classes, we had other things going on in our lives. So, it was a little bit challenging. I know when we started to try to talk about having student groups and all that. But once again, we--there was a deli in the industrial park called the Full Belly Deli. A lot of people would go there for lunch if they were able to be on campus for a whole day. Usually people came and went. It was very kind of a drive-by campus if you will, you know. People were there because there were not gathering places. So, we did try. We had powwows. Bonnie Biggs, who was the dean of the library at that time, brought in a lot of musical performances and it was really enriching and exposed us to a lot of, you know, great music. And like I say, we were involved with the Native American tribal community in the North County and so we hosted a powwow. So those were things that were also included as part of our school requirements to, you know, get involved in these international things that were going on campus. Friedman: That's great. And from what I understand, there were already some student organizations established on campus, such as ASI--? Brown: Well, no, the first year, Dr. Ernie Zomalt who's the Executive Vice President and Sandy Punch, who was doing student affairs, really helped form the first group for an election for the first Associated Students. And I had just had a conversation with Charles Ragland who is one of the former ASI presidents back in the early years. And, the first couple of years we did have the Associated Students, but it wasn't an incorporation, it was just a campus organization. We did vote and we did actually vote for some student fees. But yeah, so we did have an election and I was on the first Associated Students group and we did a lot of the heavy lifting of bylaw writing and that kind of thing, as well as trying to establish some kind of connection between students and trying to encourage them to think about imposing fees that would not necessarily impact them at all, but would impact the future of the university. Friedman: Thank you for clearing that up. Brown: Yeah. Tanis Brown recounts her experience as a student in the first graduating class at California State San Marcos when she enrolled in 1989. Tanis discusses the culture on campus, the class sizes, and the formation of the first Associated Students. California State University San Marcos ; Education ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; University ; University and community 942 Working at CSUSM Friedman: That's really interesting. And then as I understand it, you later became an employee a few years after graduating at CSUSM. Can you explain those roles that that you worked at CSUSM? Brown: Sure. So, after I graduated, I went to work for a social service agency in Vista Lifeline Community Services. And I was a grant writer there for about a year and a half. In the meantime, the campus had grown and were about to launch a (laughs) full four-year student body. And so, all of a sudden housing was needed. And because of my relationship with, you know, kind of the community, I had a lot of access to, you know, where to rent an apartment or this and that. I knew a lot of community members, my, you know, just community contacts. And so, I applied for a job with the university to be a Special Projects Coordinator in the Vice President's office. So, I went back and worked part-time, doing special projects. And then that job got extended to fifty percent of also housing and trying to not only help faculty members find housing, but also to help students find housing. And then actually starting the first housing program at Cal State San Marcos. So that was that became a bigger and bigger job (laughs) because we didn't have a facility. So, we had to go out and find housing. We had to find suitable housing for a group of students so that we could, you know, kind of cluster them together and create opportunities that would be quasi student life. And it was, it was a very interesting endeavor. (laughs) Friedman: It's important though. From what I understand, you also were involved in HR for many years and in the Retirees Association. Could you explain a little bit about your roles in those departments as well? Brown: Sure. So, I moved over to Human Resources as the Training Coordinator and my job was to provide training opportunities for staff and also develop a new employee orientation. So, I had the really fun job in Human Resources. I was kind of known as the “cheerleader” because in addition to training opportunities, one of the things that I really enjoyed doing was at the end of every year, we would do an employee recognition. This was before they had employee the month or anything like that. So once a year we would have an event that would recognize employees for their years of service. And just to, you know, just to thank employees for being on campus. In the early years, people moved around a lot just because of the growing campus. And so, there was a lot of expectation that don't get too used to the office that you're sitting in because six months now you may be moving to another office down the hallway. So, it was just a way to recognize, and I think the, you know, all the managers and leadership at the university really recognized how so many of the employees got called on to do things that they never expected to do when they were hired, just because we were a new campus and something new would come up and we just have to do it. And, we were very limited in staff. We didn't have three or four people in an office, but it was great. People enjoyed one another. And I have wonderful friends that I made at Cal State San Marcos, and it's carried over to the Retirees Association as well. So, and the other thing I loved about my job with orientation is that I got to meet everybody that was a new employee at the campus. So, I was kind of the face of HR, I believe, for many years, in terms of, you know, within their first couple of weeks of work, they were going to spend a day with me and I was going to kind of show the ropes of Cal State San Marcos. Later on, a lot of my job required a lot of compliance training as well, sexual harassment, and a lot of things like that in addition to the kind of enrichment training. Friedman: Well, thank you. So much of what you did as a student and as an employee at CSUSM seemed to involve community on campus. How did you see the CSUSM community develop over time? Brown: Are you talking about the campus community? Friedman: Oh, yes. Sorry. Yes. Brown: Okay. Well, I visited campus yesterday and we walked through the dome and in the olden days, the dome was the only really gathering place on campus. So, if you worked in Craven Hall you had to walk through the dome from the parking lot and so you pass through it, it was the place that you could eat your lunch. And usually you'd always see somebody you knew in the dome. So, there were those opportunities to make friends. And some of the employees at actually were also taking classes while they were working at Cal State San Marcos. So, it was an opportunity for just meeting and getting to know one another. But, you know, I still get that same feel just when I've been on campus other times that, people are anxious to help, they are anxious to reach out. And even the President was pretty accessible when I was there. You know, Dr. Haynes was primarily the longest serving President when I was at Cal State San Marcos and she'd be out and about on campus. And, it was, it was really great to see, you know, to know that the President was walking around, seeing what was going on as well. So, and I still get that feeling that there's a lot of opportunity for meeting and greeting it at the university. Tanis Brown discusses working as an employee at CSUSM. She describes her work as the Special Projects Coordinator in the Vice President’s office where she aided students and faculty in finding housing near the campus area. She later worked in Human Resources as the Training Coordinator. California State University San Marcos ; Education ; Housing projects ; Human resources ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; University ; University and community 1479 Involvement in the San Marcos Historical Society (SMHS) / SMHS Archives Friedman: That's wonderful. I would like to jump ahead now, or I suppose, change topics. You had mentioned that when you were a student at Cal State San Marcos, you were already involved in the San Marcos Historical Society. When did you first become involved in the organization? Brown: Well, as I mentioned early on, we moved to San Marcos and within the first eighteen months, my husband had an opportunity to go overseas and teach at a military facility. So, we moved to Germany. We rented out our house and bundled up our family and moved to Germany for two years. And while I was there, I was not working. And so, I just fell in love with history. And there, you know, Europe is a little bit older than Southern California (laughs), and I just really latched onto history. And within about a month of us coming back and getting resettled into our house, I was walking in the neighborhood and realized that we had a historical house at the top of a hill, not far from where I live and it was being vandalized. So, I contacted the city and I said, “Somebody needs to do something about this, because we don't have very many historical houses in San Marcos.” What's, you know, who owns it and trying to get to the bottom of that. Anyway, the city manager at the time recommended that I contact the Historical Society and they could tell me a little bit more the house, but in the meantime, they were going to check it out and they did follow up and say, “Oh, the house has just been purchased and they are planning to renovate it.” So, that was a good opportunity for something good to happen. But I did visit the Historical Society shortly after that and was privileged to meet several families of, you know, descendants of the pioneer families that lived here in San Marcos. So, I don't know all the old timers but kind of the second generation of old timers. And I just was amazed at the, you know, what a small town San Marcos had, but what a rich history it had, which I'm still marveling at that every day. So, yes. So, they kind of adopted me. I was quite a bit younger than anybody who was serving at the Historical Society at that time and just had an opportunity to meet some wonderful people who could tell me great stories about the history of San Marcos. And so, I got involved there and just continued to stay involved for a number of years, and then took a hiatus when I went back to school. And so then jump forward twenty years after I retired and my husband and I traveled for a few years and then came back and the Historical Society was going to be relocating their museum. And that's the time I kind of stepped up and said, “Sure, I can help.” And, so that was in 2009 and I'm still there. (Brown and Friedman laugh) Friedman: Is that when you became President or were you [unintelligible]? Brown: Yeah, I have been the President for a very long time. But yes, but we have a really wonderful group of not so many of the pioneer families are left here in San Marcos. But we do have a steadfast group of volunteers that help out. We established a hands-on history program and we've had a lot of Cal State San Marcos students. Want to find out about that. That are going into the teaching program. And we've also had a few internships and I've been able to connect with the, uh, we are a community partner through the community service learning program at Cal State San Marcos. Friedman: What has been your goal as present of the historical society? Brown: Oh my gosh. Well, moving forward, thinking about where we need to be in the future is first and foremost, we have two historical houses that will always need a lot of tender love and care and upkeep because they were built at the end of the nineteenth century, so they're quite old. So establishing an endowment fund for the houses to keep them and other historical houses in perpetuity or as long as they can stand. We also have--my immediate project is a fire engine that I'm trying to get fixed up so we can add it to our hands-on history program. And then, of course, the wonderful thing that we have is the documentation of our history and our archives. And I am blessed to be able to work with Sean [Visintainer] and Jennifer Ho on establishing a really good archival program for our records in the hope that they would be worthy of someone's collection at some point if anything should happen to the Historical Society. So, just kind of laying the foundation for the future, kind of the “what ifs” and “what would happen if” and “how might we continue to preserve these things.” Friedman: That's wonderful. That's very smart. You always need to be thinking forward for your archive collection. Going to your archive, do you have any gems in the archive that you would like to talk about or share? Brown: We have a couple things that are pretty special. So, in the early years of first establishing San Marcos, there were three distinct communities. There was the Twin Oaks area out on the Northeastern side of San Marcos. There was the area known as Richland, which is kind of the center of town and where Cal State San Marcos is. And then on the West end, there was a community known as Barham township. And Barham township today is kind of right on the border of San Marcos and Encinitas. And there was a gentleman named William Webster Borden, and William Webster Borden was the postmaster. He wrote the first newspaper that we have documented called The Plain Truth. And it was postmarked from Barham, California. Anyway, his great-great-grandson delivered to us William Webster Borden’s type desk, which is a tall chest that contains all the little letters to make a newspaper, the individual letters. And so, we are pleased to have William Webster Borden’s type desk. Another thing that we have inherited from that area, there used to be Meadowlark Ranch that was off Rancho Santa Fe Road. And we have the corral gate from Meadowlark Ranch that was taken down in the 1950s. And it is barely standing, but we have figured it up on our backyard so people can have a chance to see that. And then we have an old schoolhouse bell from the 1910 schoolhouse. And that was given to us by William Carroll, who was quite a character. He ran the Outlook Newspaper. He bought the 1910 schoolhouse in the [19]60s and restored it as his newspaper office. He relocated it on Grand Avenue and it's still standing. But he left town in the nineties and moved to New Mexico and then Arcata, California. And once he got settled up there, he contacted us and said, “I'm going to give you the bell, but you have to come and get it.” So, it's a pretty far drive up there. And the thing weighs over two hundred and fifty pounds. So luckily, we were able to find someone who was making the trip down that would deliver it to us. So, we have the original bell from the 1910 schoolhouse in our museum. Friedman: That's wonderful. Brown: Yeah. One last thing is our museum and building itself is pretty special in that it was built in 1939 by a grant for three thousand two hundred dollars, but it was built by the WPA, which is the Works Progress Administration under Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal. And so that was kind of the tail end of the WPA projects. And so, we provided the money for the supplies, but the government would actually supply the workers and pay the workers to complete the work. So, our museum today is one of those projects from the WPA back in 1939. Friedman: That's a great story. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: Wow. You mentioned how are a volunteer-run organization. How do you think the community of your organization and San Marcos in general have contributed to the preservation of the history of San Marcos? Brown: Hmm. Well. I guess one of the things that I'm thinking about in addition to the legacy that we leave is that the pandemic has helped me understand that sometimes you can't wait for people to come to you because we were closed so much of the time during the pandemic that a lot of our programs, a lot of our volunteers, you know, we didn't have them anymore. So, recently, I was on a trip up in Washington state and walking along some of the trails up there are these beautiful displays that show a picture of--you're looking at a building across the lake, but you're seeing a photo of what it was like in 1920 or something like that. And it’s called--the little caption underneath is called Trail Tales. And so, it occurred to me that we really do need to take history out to the public. And, not just on special occasions, when I go out to do a presentation or somebody calls the Historical Society. But just for anybody who's maybe going out for a walk. So, that is one of the things that I'd like to see us do as a city and just community activity is to identify some of these areas that have changed so much over the years and have a then-and-now photo, or a description of what they're looking at, what it used to look like back in the 1920s or in 1890s. So that we just don't get used to thinking that this is the way it's always been, and this is the way it'll always be that there was something before that--what you're seeing today. Friedman: How would you like to, I guess, bring awareness to kind of that issue? Brown: Well, I guess one of the things that we have to do is as, you know, try to work with maybe developers of new projects and have them incorporate some of these Trail Tales or historical icons, so that you can, actually, from the ground level, add that to the aesthetic of whatever's being built today. I mean, maybe we could start at Cal State University and have a photo of the Prohoroff Poultry Farm, (laughs) I don't know, but, there are endless possibilities here in San Marcos. And I was just thinking-- there's a new Costco along San Marcos Boulevard and that--where those buildings were airports here in San Marcos, which I'm sure not too many people know about that we had two airports here in San Marcos. So, Julia, you pose a good question. It always requires a little leg work talking just to the right people and getting people excited about things. Friedman: I would like to see that happen someday. I—(laughs) Brown: Maybe we can work together. (laughs) Friedman: Ooh, I like that. I guess see that as a project, as an exhibit. I could see that as many things. I'm excited. I hope to see that someday. (laughs) Brown: I would love that. Friedman: How have you seen your organization grow over the years? Brown: The Historical Society? Friedman: Yeah. Brown: Historical societies, or at least ours, has not grown. It has dwindled. I think a lot of—and hopefully that is not the--or it's changed, I guess. I think there are less and less, not opportunities, but there are less and less people that get actively involved in volunteerism as much as I remember growing up. Or at least back in the [19]80s, because most people would retire, you know, between fifty-eight, sixty-five [years old], and then they would dedicate a few years to a civic organization. In talking with other historical societies in North County, groups like Kiwanis [Kiwanis International] and Rotary [San Diego Rotary], I've noticed a kind of a steady decline in those memberships. And I don't think it's because people aren't equally as busy now as they used to be, but their time is spent differently than it maybe had been in the past. And I don't know. I think my generation of people, or maybe it's just me, I tend to be a joiner. I like doing stuff with other people because I think more gets accomplished. But that's a good question. Something, I think about a lot in terms of, you know, again, what happens if our volunteers, you know, we don't have as many people that are as interested in our future or our history and moving it forward. So, my big hope is kids as all, as we like to make sure that they think history is something important and to be cherished. Tanis Brown explains how she first became involved in the San Marcos Historical Society. As President of the organization, Tanis describes her goals moving forward for the SMHS, as well as significant items located in the SMHS archives. Education ; History ; Local history ; Nonprofit organizations ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Volunteers 2676 The Importance of Funding and Education Friedman: How do you like to reach out to school groups? Do you have like a school program? Do you have special exhibits for that? Brown: We have, prior to COVID, we had a pretty flourishing hands-on history program for elementary students and for the primary students, they would come out to Heritage Park and participate in kind of a round robin of activities. We'd have five different activities that they would participate in. They would learn about the Native American community that lived here in San Marcos. They would take a tour of two historical houses. They would learn a craft of what kids did one hundred and twenty years ago. What kind of crafts did they do? What kind of things did they have to work with? “Did they have markers? No.” (laughs) So we do a little activity like that. We do games that kids played with pine cones and old equipment and things like that that are kind of made-up games. And then we do chores. So, they do outdoor laundry in the tub. They wash the clothes, they plant in the garden and they make biscuits and butter from scratch. So, and then at the end of the session, we get to taste the butter that we have made. So it's really about, “What was life like in San Marcos back in 1890?” And so, kids get a chance to kind of see--we partner with the Vallecitos Water District, who's very gracious to help bust the students out to Heritage Park. And then they also do a little session on water conservation. And it blends right into our concept of, you know, how did people wash their clothes and wash their dishes and where did they go to the bathroom and take a bath when there were no inside restrooms? So, it's kind of an ecology lesson as well as a sustainability lesson, but also a history lesson as well. Friedman: Those sound really exciting. My next question I realize can pertain both to, I guess, lack of volunteers and also children's education. I didn't realize it pertained to what we just spoke about previously, but what would you like future historians to understand about lack of funding in both education and the nonprofit sphere? Brown: Well, I guess, you know, my family, both my husband and my fathers were both elementary school principals. So we’ve been in involved with public schools our whole lives, and supportive of what public schools do and taking advantage of just amazing teachers and, you know, people who give so much to help our kids learn. And I just think that, in today's world, the things that we celebrate and invest in, while they are important, to know about, I just wish as much money could be invested into education. And I'm not just talking about K-12, I'm talking about higher education and as well. I'm a strong believer in lifelong learning and, you know, education, libraries, civic organizations are really the things that provide a huge quality of life in our community. And, you know, it, pains me a little that so much money goes into sports, and I'm not against sports, or other things that people are high ticket items, that don't end up with a lot of bang for your buck. And I just think, that it's something that we all share and we can always make better. I know there's been a lot of, you know, down talking schools as a result of the last couple of years, and I just, feel bad that teachers kind of take a brunt of stuff and just trying to do the best I can every day. Friedman: Why do you think lack of funding could be so detrimental to the preservation and understanding of history? Brown: Well, I think, I mean, history tells a lot about where we go, and where we've been. And there are, I believe, cycles that come around. But I do think, you know, again, one of the things that excites me is that I get a lot of newsletters from schools and organizations just like Cal State San Marcos. I get the update of all the cool things that are going on on the campus on a weekly basis. And I compare that with the, you know, what's on the news every night, which is kind of depressing. And I'm thinking, “Why aren't we covering all these amazing things that are going on in the local schools?” And not just Cal State San Marcos or in our local schools, but a citywide and regionwide. I mean, students are just doing some amazing things but when there's not a lot of money to support those kinds of things, it does really affect, especially, those who are not--don't have the life experience to know that you can go to a free museum, or, you know, there are free things. And I do think that educational opportunities through schools provide a lot of awareness about ways to do things that don't cost a lot of money or that are enrichment activities through the classrooms. So, and it takes money to pay for that stuff. Friedman: Yeah. That's well said. What do you think these nonprofits need to do in order to survive during these difficult times? Brown: Stick together, I guess. (laughs) Well, you know what, you do what you can do. And, you know, I'm an advocate. I don't like to, you know, diss people for what they're not doing, but really, try to appreciate people for what they do do. And, you know, make the most of it. I think April is Volunteer Month and, you know, volunteering isn't going to happen if people go and they're not enjoying it, or they're not getting some kind of reward out of it. And I think that's, you know, we need to always kind of invest in our volunteers in terms of making sure that they are able to engage in the things they like to do when they come out and volunteer. But, the Historical Society--our members--we participate in a bigger group called CINCH [Council for the Interpretation of North County History], which is all the North County historical societies. We gather four times a year just to share ideas and, you know, tips and what they're doing. And you never know when you're going to get a really good idea from somebody that turns out to be lucrative. And then I'm always looking for partnerships. I'm always looking to work with our agencies, our city. We're so lucky to be able to be in our city park. So we have people that come out to the park and walk by and try to talk to people that come by, invite them in. So yeah, I mean, that's my approach and I guess have grant writers that will help find the money and put it in our hands. (laughs) Tanis Brown discusses the SMHS’s support of education, especially in collaborating with local schools and creating museum tours for school groups. Tanis also explains why the lack of funding in both the educational and nonprofit spheres is detrimental to the understanding of history. Education ; Funding ; History ; Local history ; Nonprofit organizations ; San Marcos (Calif.) 3321 San Marcos History Friedman: That's always important. I would like to jump back a bit to San Marco Marcos’ history. Brown: Okay. Friedman: From your experience working at the San Marcos Historical Society, who do you believe are some significant historical individuals in San Marcos history, such as prominent individuals or famous families? Brown: Okay. Well, the original home--well, first of all, the Twin Oaks area is primarily--was one of the settlement areas for the Luiseño tribe. And, well, I don't have access to direct descendants of those--the mission band of Luiseño Indians are really the kind of the original homesteaders there in the Twin Oaks Valley. So, I think that we should always recognize that, you know, somebody was here before the first covered wagons came or anything like that. And then our Rancho period was very short in San Marcos. So, the first, like homesteader families that are still European homesteader families are the Merriam family. And there are a few of them still living and in this area. The Uhlands have a huge connection, not only to Heritage Park, but the whole Twin Oaks Valley area. And there are still Uhlands family members in town. The Fultons, and a lot of these, like the Fultons, the Bordens, the Barhams--those are all San Marcos street names. So, you don't have to go too far to recognize that those families have had their own streets named after them. But we recently lost the original homestead of a Fulton family, which is very sad. They had a homestead at in San Marcos in 1893, and the last family member that had lived on the homestead, moved to Nebraska last fall. So, from 1893 to 2021, was inhabited by one family. And then also out here in Twin Oaks the Astleford family were only one of two families that owned property here in Twin Oaks Valley. I mentioned William Webster Borden, the Barhams. In the Richland area, there was another Borden, Reynold Bascom Borden his house is still standing in the Richland area. So, we have, you know, again, a number of families. Friedman: That's really interesting. Are there also any individuals from San Marcos history that not as well known that we should know about such as individuals from marginalized communities? Brown: Well, actually, this is kind of interesting. Several years ago we took a world map and tried to chart all the places that, you know, people that had moved to San Marcos, where they had come from. And, while, one of the things that we realized is that we had had a very large community of Serbian and Yugoslavian families that moved to San Marcos. The Prohoroffs were originally from Russia. They moved to Mexico and then migrated up through Mexico to Southern California. We do have, we have Meadowlark Cemetery that is off Rancho Santa Fe Road. It was a pioneer cemetery over on the West end of San Marcos. And there are several homesteaders there that, you know, were there prior, between the 1850s, 1870. I'm trying to think of other--of course, you know, I look at photos of early San Marcos. We had Japanese, we had a lot of Japanese farmers that had to leave during World War II. We have a lot of Hispanic families that have come and gone through San Marcos. And usually, we will meet those people that will come to the museum that, you know, their grandparents worked at Prohoroff Ranch or in the, one of the farms here in San Marcos. But they don't live here anymore. And so, we don't have the longevity of their history. But I'm always anxious to, you know, find out some of those kind of stories that, have lived on. Friedman: That's really interesting. Thank you. Brown: Julia. I need to get a drink. Friedman: Oh, sure. Brown: Can we stop for a minute? Friedman: Yeah, absolutely. So interview with Tanis Brown paused at 11:01. Interview with Tanis Brown resumed at 11:02. If you were to interview someone from San Marcos for an oral history interview, who would be, and why? Brown: Well, we have captured a lot of, kind of the old timey history in San Marcos from the 1800s, 1900s. But I am interested in working with people that maybe are in their sixties that have gone through the entire San Marcos school district, or actually moved here as young children and watched San Marcos grow. As an adult, I’m pretty aware of that, you know, kind of the development of the city. But it would be interesting to get a sense of a student’s perspective as they have grown. And now are adults and their take on San Marco’s history, kind of the next gen[eration] of history for the future. I mean, we have a lot of, you know, kind of more recently women in politics. And I would like to interview Pia Harris [San Marcos' first female council member], Rebecca Jones [San Marcos Mayor at time of recording], and also some of our city employees who have just an amazing background of knowledge of how things came to be. Friedman: I like that. Those are really interesting people to interview. How have you seen the city of San Marcos develop over the last forty years? Brown: (laughs) Well, when my kids first walked to school in San Marcos in 1976, Woodland Park was an elementary school. It's now a middle school. And it was built in the seventies when there was really very little money for new schools. But it was an open school. So, there were no dividers. And the only dividers in the school were short bookcases. And when we walked down to meet the principal before school started, he was standing on a ladder in the very center of the building, looking around at all the--where the classrooms would be. And, we just kind of thought, “Oh my gosh.” It was very interesting, but on the way, walking to school, our children had--we had to skirt a pasture to get to school. We don't see that so much anymore. So those were kind of our first, you know, memories of moving to San Marcos and, really being in a rural community that neither my husband or I had ever felt so close to a rural atmosphere. To, you know, watching the university get built to watching buildings get moved and relocated for the city hall complex. For--certainly traffic is very different. There were no traffic signals in San Marcos until 1974. There was one four-way stop at Mission Empico Road when I was going to Palomar College. So that four-way stop on the first day school could get really crazy. But the thing that I feel kind of most proud about is that we really established, many years ago, that San Marcos would keep a quality of life through parks, open spaces, and trails, so that if you wanted to ride a bicycle from one end of town to the other, or to visit a park, there would be one in your neighborhood and you would have a connection to that. So that part of the growth of San Marcos, I think, is going to pay off in the long run as we continue to develop new neighborhoods like North City and still keeping a quality of life, as well as accommodating people who want to live here. And that doesn't mean just a certain, you know, type of person. We need to keep are community a blended community. So young people, old people, any stripe of person can move to San Marcos, find a home, and a connection. And I think between city, and the organizations, and the resources that we have is that we want to be a welcoming place for anybody who comes to San Marcos. Yeah. Friedman: Thank you. What to you makes San Marcos and San Marcos history so fascinating to study? Brown: Well, I just like the idea that you can, you know, you can create things. I think people come to different communities. Something usually draws them to an area. Like even as back as the first tribal communities, they found what was going to meet their needs: water, flat land, access to food, and shelter. And, I think people are still doing that. They're looking for something that meets their needs. And so I think as we move forward that it's our responsibility to make sure that we provide opportunities for people that come here. I'm not sure I answered that question very well. Friedman: No you did, thank you. And what do you think is so important or what is important about understanding local history? Brown: Okay. Well, I think, I mean, history's human. I mean, you know, a lot of people say, and we always have to second guess ourselves, because the minute you put something down on paper and then somebody--and it's written and somebody'll say, “Well, that isn’t the way I remember it.” So, there's so much humanity in history and it's how we, you know, how we look at it and maybe our opinion of that history changes. But it is. And there isn't just one history, you know. We all make our own history. And so, but I do think--I love the opportunity that we have, at least that I have, and that we're willing to share about information that people felt was important enough to document back in the 1880s or [18]90s, and may have some relevance for us today. We recently were going through the Fulton papers, which we’re archiving, and we found a reference in a letter about the 1916 flood that was here in San Marcos, which we have a photo of in our museum. And that same letter also referenced the pandemic in 1918. So, to me, and it's like, “Oh my gosh,” because we didn't, well, we weren't necessarily looking for it, as it related to San Marcos, but when we saw it, it was like, “Oh my gosh,” it talked about this lady who was willing to go over and help her neighbors out who had the Spanish Flu. And so here it was right here in San Marcos. And I don't know, that just to me create some kind of bond between people from 1918 that were right here in the same neighborhood or in the same place that we were, or we are now. And, so I don't know. That's just so exciting to me that a hundred years ago they were experiencing kind of the same thing and not exactly knowing how to deal with it. So, not that much has changed in spite of all the cars, in spite of all the buildings, not that much has changed. We're still people. And that's what I think history is really about people's stories. Tanis Brown discusses prominent historical figures and families from San Marcos history, including the Barhams, Fultons, and Bordens. Tanis also explains the importance of studying and understanding local history. 19th century ; 20th century ; Education ; History ; Local history ; Local politics ; Nonprofit organizations ; San Marcos (Calif.) 4470 Closing of Interview Friedman: Well, thank you so much, Tanis. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else you'd like to share today? Brown: Well, I would just like to say that, whoever is viewing this video is welcome to come out and visit Heritage Park in Walnut Grove Park. And, we welcome and would love to share history with you. Friedman: Very well said. Well, thank you. It was a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you so much for being part of this project. Brown: Well, I'm really happy to--I wasn't expecting to do that. I was expecting to share other people's names, but I'm happy to have shared my history with you. Friedman: Thank you. We're so happy that you are a part of this project and we're so happy to have your story become a part of our collection. Brown: Great. Me too. Friedman: Well, thank you. Brown: Okay. So is that, is that it. Tanis Brown closes interview by welcoming viewers to share their history with the SMHS. Education ; History ; Local history ; Nonprofit organizations ; San Marcos (Calif.) Tanis Brown is the President of the San Marcos Historical Society and is involved in many local history projects and educational outreach initiatives. In this interview, Tanis discusses her involvement in the city of San Marcos, CA since the 1970s. Tanis quickly became active in the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce and was among the first group of students to enroll in California State University San Marcos. A few years later, she became an employee of CSUSM, establishing the university’s first housing program and working in human resources. Now as President of the San Marcos Historical Society, Tanis is passionate about sharing San Marcos’ local history with her community and with future generations. Julia Friedman: Today is Wednesday, April 13th, 2022, at 9:58 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Tanis Brown for the University Library Special Collections Oral History project. Tanis, thank you for being here with me today. Tanis Brown: Oh, thank you. Hang on just a minute. I have to--all right. Friedman: Perfect. I would like to start by discussing your early days in the city of San Marcos, California. Why did you first move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, I first came to San Marcos in 1976 in the kind of summertime. We moved to San Marcos from Escondido. Friedman: And why did you move to San Marcos? Brown: Well, my husband and I had kind of outgrown our house in Escondido and we were looking--he was looking for a little more yard space so he could start to garden. And so, we were looking for a little bit larger house with a little more backyard. Friedman: And what were your first impressions of the city? Brown: Well, when we were looking at houses, I can remember my husband telling the realtor, " ; I' ; m not sure we want to live in San Marcos. It' ; s kind of the boonies, isn' ; t it?" ; And, at that time, San Marcos was certainly not the city it is today. It was a lot more rural. Many, many mobile home parks, about twelve if I remember correctly. Only four to five elementary schools and we had two children in school, so we were looking for, you know, a close-by school and again. So, taking some choices about, well, do we want a little bit bigger yard or do we want to stay in a more developed city, like Escondido? And I' ; m certainly glad that we opted to move to San Marcos. Friedman: That' ; s great. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: How did you first become involved in the community of San Marcos during your first years in the city? Brown: Okay, so, right after we moved to San Marcos, I enrolled in an early childhood development course at Palomar college. I had been teaching preschool for a number of years and the first night of class, the teacher said the city of San Marcos is looking for a preschool teacher for their Raggedy Anne and Andy Program, which was very popular. It was expanding at that time. And so, I went the next day and put in an application and ended up getting a job with the city right away within the first couple of months. And so, it was a wonderful opportunity to meet people that worked for the city. Our location was where San Marcos City Hall is now, but the building was the red barn that is now located at Walnut Grove Park, that was where all the city recreation programs were hosted out of. That was the main office for our park and recreation program. So, I started working for the Raggedy Anne and Andy Program and was able to meet a lot of people that worked for the city at that time. And that was kind of our first introduction. And because we were such a small community, a couple of the city council people had their children enrolled in our ragged Anne and Andy program. So immediately, I met two or three city council people and through their children. So that' ; s kind of our quick introduction. And I remember thinking, " ; Oh my gosh, I grew up in San Diego. I never ever knew anybody who' ; s elected to anything." ; And here we are, serving, the city council members' ; children. So, it was a very close connection to the local government. Friedman: Have you remained within those organizations? Brown: Yes. So, in addition, I only were worked for the city for about a little bit over a year because, we lived overseas shortly after that, but when I came back, I had already been familiar with the park and recreation program. So, I applied to be a commissioner for the park and recreation program, which is an advisory commission for the city of San Marcos, overseeing the parks and recreation. And I was appointed to that and it was a perfect timing because the city was growing quite a bit and we were developing new parks. So, we went from three parks to eight parks to twelve parks, and I ended up sitting on that commission for over twenty years. So, it was really a great time to watch the city not only develop, but also plan for open space, parks, trails, that kept up with the development of additional housing. Friedman: That' ; s wonderful. Oh my goodness. So, you really saw the city expand in just your first few years in San Marcos. And then shortly after, you enrolled in Cal State San Marcos [California State University San Marcos]. You were among the first class to enroll in 1989. Why did you decide to attend the university? Brown: (laughs) Well, my other--one of the other hats that I have worn for many years is the San Marcos Historical Society. And through that organization, I got to be involved with the Chamber of Commerce. We had a reciprocal agreement and I was attending a lot of Chamber events, and I was lucky enough to meet Richard Rush, who was the Dean of the North San Diego campus at that time. And he kept talking about, you know, they were going to have, well at one point, it was going to be a San Diego State satellite campus up in North County. And, you know, just a lot about that. So, I got to know him fairly well. And then, in 1989, when San Marcos was going to be the host city for the university, I thought, " ; Well, I better get in on the ground floor of this." ; So, I applied to go take all my many, many undergraduate units and apply them towards a degree. All my kids were now in school. Perfect timing. So, I applied to go to be in the first graduating class of Cal State San Marcos. So, it was wonderful. And I can remember in my first--one of my first classes on the first day, Dick Rush came in and waved, sat and waved out the window. So it was, it was like, " ; Oh, this is great, this feels like home." ; So, it was--it was very comfortable. Friedman: Oh, that' ; s wonderful. Because I understand that the original campus was a storefront property while the permanent one was being built across town. Can you discuss what it was like attending CSUSM [California State University San Marcos] during those early days as a university? Brown: Yes, we called it Cal State Jerome' ; s [CSUSM was located near to a Jerome' ; s furniture store] and we were in industrial park and, there were very few classes. I remember we didn' ; t have a full compliment of majors like we do now. And the first several years of campus life were only upper-class juniors and seniors, as well as teaching programs. So, we had only upper division classes and every semester there were only so many classes for each department. So pretty much everybody who was in one class was in all your classes together, depending on what your major was. So, we really got to know one another and there was a lot of camaraderie between the faculty, the students, the staff, because we were all about the same age. The average age of students in the first few years of Cal State San Marcos was thirty-nine years old. So, you can imagine that, we--some of us were older than our faculty members, our professors, and certainly had a lot of a local experience. But most people, it was most certainly a commuter campus. There wasn' ; t much campus life. Friedman: What did you major in? Brown: Well, I was an English major with a minor in women' ; s studies. Friedman: That' ; s great. And how many students were enrolled in your cohort, or in your class? Brown: I think our first graduating class was between ninety and ninety-five, something like that. So, we all fit in Craven Circle, in three rows of chairs, just about. Friedman: I was actually expecting it to be a little smaller, but that' ; s actually really interesting. Could you elaborate a little more on the comradery amongst your classmates? Kind of like, what was the culture like in general within your cohort? Brown: Well, like I say, most students were, you know, adults who have lots of other stuff going on. Most people were working, or parents, or involved in community activities or especially jobs. We were all [reentering]--most of us were reentry students. And so, in addition to taking classes, we had other things going on in our lives. So, it was a little bit challenging. I know when we started to try to talk about having student groups and all that. But once again, we--there was a deli in the industrial park called the Full Belly Deli. A lot of people would go there for lunch if they were able to be on campus for a whole day. Usually people came and went. It was very kind of a drive-by campus if you will, you know. People were there because there were not gathering places. So, we did try. We had powwows. Bonnie Biggs, who was the dean of the library at that time, brought in a lot of musical performances and it was really enriching and exposed us to a lot of, you know, great music. And like I say, we were involved with the Native American tribal community in the North County and so we hosted a powwow. So those were things that were also included as part of our school requirements to, you know, get involved in these international things that were going on campus. Friedman: That' ; s great. And from what I understand, there were already some student organizations established on campus, such as ASI--? Brown: Well, no, the first year, Dr. Ernie Zomalt who' ; s the Executive Vice President and Sandy Punch, who was doing student affairs, really helped form the first group for an election for the first Associated Students. And I had just had a conversation with Charles Ragland who is one of the former ASI presidents back in the early years. And, the first couple of years we did have the Associated Students, but it wasn' ; t an incorporation, it was just a campus organization. We did vote and we did actually vote for some student fees. But yeah, so we did have an election and I was on the first Associated Students group and we did a lot of the heavy lifting of bylaw writing and that kind of thing, as well as trying to establish some kind of connection between students and trying to encourage them to think about imposing fees that would not necessarily impact them at all, but would impact the future of the university. Friedman: Thank you for clearing that up. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: That' ; s really interesting. And then as I understand it, you later became an employee a few years after graduating at CSUSM. Can you explain those roles that that you worked at CSUSM? Brown: Sure. So, after I graduated, I went to work for a social service agency in Vista Lifeline Community Services. And I was a grant writer there for about a year and a half. In the meantime, the campus had grown and were about to launch a (laughs) full four-year student body. And so, all of a sudden housing was needed. And because of my relationship with, you know, kind of the community, I had a lot of access to, you know, where to rent an apartment or this and that. I knew a lot of community members, my, you know, just community contacts. And so, I applied for a job with the university to be a Special Projects Coordinator in the Vice President' ; s office. So, I went back and worked part-time, doing special projects. And then that job got extended to fifty percent of also housing and trying to not only help faculty members find housing, but also to help students find housing. And then actually starting the first housing program at Cal State San Marcos. So that was that became a bigger and bigger job (laughs) because we didn' ; t have a facility. So, we had to go out and find housing. We had to find suitable housing for a group of students so that we could, you know, kind of cluster them together and create opportunities that would be quasi student life. And it was, it was a very interesting endeavor. (laughs) Friedman: It' ; s important though. From what I understand, you also were involved in HR for many years and in the Retirees Association. Could you explain a little bit about your roles in those departments as well? Brown: Sure. So, I moved over to Human Resources as the Training Coordinator and my job was to provide training opportunities for staff and also develop a new employee orientation. So, I had the really fun job in Human Resources. I was kind of known as the " ; cheerleader" ; because in addition to training opportunities, one of the things that I really enjoyed doing was at the end of every year, we would do an employee recognition. This was before they had employee the month or anything like that. So once a year we would have an event that would recognize employees for their years of service. And just to, you know, just to thank employees for being on campus. In the early years, people moved around a lot just because of the growing campus. And so, there was a lot of expectation that don' ; t get too used to the office that you' ; re sitting in because six months now you may be moving to another office down the hallway. So, it was just a way to recognize, and I think the, you know, all the managers and leadership at the university really recognized how so many of the employees got called on to do things that they never expected to do when they were hired, just because we were a new campus and something new would come up and we just have to do it. And, we were very limited in staff. We didn' ; t have three or four people in an office, but it was great. People enjoyed one another. And I have wonderful friends that I made at Cal State San Marcos, and it' ; s carried over to the Retirees Association as well. So, and the other thing I loved about my job with orientation is that I got to meet everybody that was a new employee at the campus. So, I was kind of the face of HR, I believe, for many years, in terms of, you know, within their first couple of weeks of work, they were going to spend a day with me and I was going to kind of show the ropes of Cal State San Marcos. Later on, a lot of my job required a lot of compliance training as well, sexual harassment, and a lot of things like that in addition to the kind of enrichment training. Friedman: Well, thank you. So much of what you did as a student and as an employee at CSUSM seemed to involve community on campus. How did you see the CSUSM community develop over time? Brown: Are you talking about the campus community? Friedman: Oh, yes. Sorry. Yes. Brown: Okay. Well, I visited campus yesterday and we walked through the dome and in the olden days, the dome was the only really gathering place on campus. So, if you worked in Craven Hall you had to walk through the dome from the parking lot and so you pass through it, it was the place that you could eat your lunch. And usually you' ; d always see somebody you knew in the dome. So, there were those opportunities to make friends. And some of the employees at actually were also taking classes while they were working at Cal State San Marcos. So, it was an opportunity for just meeting and getting to know one another. But, you know, I still get that same feel just when I' ; ve been on campus other times that, people are anxious to help, they are anxious to reach out. And even the President was pretty accessible when I was there. You know, Dr. Haynes was primarily the longest serving President when I was at Cal State San Marcos and she' ; d be out and about on campus. And, it was, it was really great to see, you know, to know that the President was walking around, seeing what was going on as well. So, and I still get that feeling that there' ; s a lot of opportunity for meeting and greeting it at the university. Friedman: That' ; s wonderful. I would like to jump ahead now, or I suppose, change topics. You had mentioned that when you were a student at Cal State San Marcos, you were already involved in the San Marcos Historical Society. When did you first become involved in the organization? Brown: Well, as I mentioned early on, we moved to San Marcos and within the first eighteen months, my husband had an opportunity to go overseas and teach at a military facility. So, we moved to Germany. We rented out our house and bundled up our family and moved to Germany for two years. And while I was there, I was not working. And so, I just fell in love with history. And there, you know, Europe is a little bit older than Southern California (laughs), and I just really latched onto history. And within about a month of us coming back and getting resettled into our house, I was walking in the neighborhood and realized that we had a historical house at the top of a hill, not far from where I live and it was being vandalized. So, I contacted the city and I said, " ; Somebody needs to do something about this, because we don' ; t have very many historical houses in San Marcos." ; What' ; s, you know, who owns it and trying to get to the bottom of that. Anyway, the city manager at the time recommended that I contact the Historical Society and they could tell me a little bit more the house, but in the meantime, they were going to check it out and they did follow up and say, " ; Oh, the house has just been purchased and they are planning to renovate it." ; So, that was a good opportunity for something good to happen. But I did visit the Historical Society shortly after that and was privileged to meet several families of, you know, descendants of the pioneer families that lived here in San Marcos. So, I don' ; t know all the old timers but kind of the second generation of old timers. And I just was amazed at the, you know, what a small town San Marcos had, but what a rich history it had, which I' ; m still marveling at that every day. So, yes. So, they kind of adopted me. I was quite a bit younger than anybody who was serving at the Historical Society at that time and just had an opportunity to meet some wonderful people who could tell me great stories about the history of San Marcos. And so, I got involved there and just continued to stay involved for a number of years, and then took a hiatus when I went back to school. And so then jump forward twenty years after I retired and my husband and I traveled for a few years and then came back and the Historical Society was going to be relocating their museum. And that' ; s the time I kind of stepped up and said, " ; Sure, I can help." ; And, so that was in 2009 and I' ; m still there. (Brown and Friedman laugh) Friedman: Is that when you became President or were you [unintelligible]? Brown: Yeah, I have been the President for a very long time. But yes, but we have a really wonderful group of not so many of the pioneer families are left here in San Marcos. But we do have a steadfast group of volunteers that help out. We established a hands-on history program and we' ; ve had a lot of Cal State San Marcos students. Want to find out about that. That are going into the teaching program. And we' ; ve also had a few internships and I' ; ve been able to connect with the, uh, we are a community partner through the community service learning program at Cal State San Marcos. Friedman: What has been your goal as present of the historical society? Brown: Oh my gosh. Well, moving forward, thinking about where we need to be in the future is first and foremost, we have two historical houses that will always need a lot of tender love and care and upkeep because they were built at the end of the nineteenth century, so they' ; re quite old. So establishing an endowment fund for the houses to keep them and other historical houses in perpetuity or as long as they can stand. We also have--my immediate project is a fire engine that I' ; m trying to get fixed up so we can add it to our hands-on history program. And then, of course, the wonderful thing that we have is the documentation of our history and our archives. And I am blessed to be able to work with Sean [Visintainer] and Jennifer Ho on establishing a really good archival program for our records in the hope that they would be worthy of someone' ; s collection at some point if anything should happen to the Historical Society. So, just kind of laying the foundation for the future, kind of the " ; what ifs" ; and " ; what would happen if" ; and " ; how might we continue to preserve these things." ; Friedman: That' ; s wonderful. That' ; s very smart. You always need to be thinking forward for your archive collection. Going to your archive, do you have any gems in the archive that you would like to talk about or share? Brown: We have a couple things that are pretty special. So, in the early years of first establishing San Marcos, there were three distinct communities. There was the Twin Oaks area out on the Northeastern side of San Marcos. There was the area known as Richland, which is kind of the center of town and where Cal State San Marcos is. And then on the West end, there was a community known as Barham township. And Barham township today is kind of right on the border of San Marcos and Encinitas. And there was a gentleman named William Webster Borden, and William Webster Borden was the postmaster. He wrote the first newspaper that we have documented called The Plain Truth. And it was postmarked from Barham, California. Anyway, his great-great-grandson delivered to us William Webster Borden' ; s type desk, which is a tall chest that contains all the little letters to make a newspaper, the individual letters. And so, we are pleased to have William Webster Borden' ; s type desk. Another thing that we have inherited from that area, there used to be Meadowlark Ranch that was off Rancho Santa Fe Road. And we have the corral gate from Meadowlark Ranch that was taken down in the 1950s. And it is barely standing, but we have figured it up on our backyard so people can have a chance to see that. And then we have an old schoolhouse bell from the 1910 schoolhouse. And that was given to us by William Carroll, who was quite a character. He ran the Outlook Newspaper. He bought the 1910 schoolhouse in the [19]60s and restored it as his newspaper office. He relocated it on Grand Avenue and it' ; s still standing. But he left town in the nineties and moved to New Mexico and then Arcata, California. And once he got settled up there, he contacted us and said, " ; I' ; m going to give you the bell, but you have to come and get it." ; So, it' ; s a pretty far drive up there. And the thing weighs over two hundred and fifty pounds. So luckily, we were able to find someone who was making the trip down that would deliver it to us. So, we have the original bell from the 1910 schoolhouse in our museum. Friedman: That' ; s wonderful. Brown: Yeah. One last thing is our museum and building itself is pretty special in that it was built in 1939 by a grant for three thousand two hundred dollars, but it was built by the WPA, which is the Works Progress Administration under Franklin Roosevelt' ; s New Deal. And so that was kind of the tail end of the WPA projects. And so, we provided the money for the supplies, but the government would actually supply the workers and pay the workers to complete the work. So, our museum today is one of those projects from the WPA back in 1939. Friedman: That' ; s a great story. Brown: Yeah. Friedman: Wow. You mentioned how are a volunteer-run organization. How do you think the community of your organization and San Marcos in general have contributed to the preservation of the history of San Marcos? Brown: Hmm. Well. I guess one of the things that I' ; m thinking about in addition to the legacy that we leave is that the pandemic has helped me understand that sometimes you can' ; t wait for people to come to you because we were closed so much of the time during the pandemic that a lot of our programs, a lot of our volunteers, you know, we didn' ; t have them anymore. So, recently, I was on a trip up in Washington state and walking along some of the trails up there are these beautiful displays that show a picture of--you' ; re looking at a building across the lake, but you' ; re seeing a photo of what it was like in 1920 or something like that. And it' ; s called--the little caption underneath is called Trail Tales. And so, it occurred to me that we really do need to take history out to the public. And, not just on special occasions, when I go out to do a presentation or somebody calls the Historical Society. But just for anybody who' ; s maybe going out for a walk. So, that is one of the things that I' ; d like to see us do as a city and just community activity is to identify some of these areas that have changed so much over the years and have a then-and-now photo, or a description of what they' ; re looking at, what it used to look like back in the 1920s or in 1890s. So that we just don' ; t get used to thinking that this is the way it' ; s always been, and this is the way it' ; ll always be that there was something before that--what you' ; re seeing today. Friedman: How would you like to, I guess, bring awareness to kind of that issue? Brown: Well, I guess one of the things that we have to do is as, you know, try to work with maybe developers of new projects and have them incorporate some of these Trail Tales or historical icons, so that you can, actually, from the ground level, add that to the aesthetic of whatever' ; s being built today. I mean, maybe we could start at Cal State University and have a photo of the Prohoroff Poultry Farm, (laughs) I don' ; t know, but, there are endless possibilities here in San Marcos. And I was just thinking-- there' ; s a new Costco along San Marcos Boulevard and that--where those buildings were airports here in San Marcos, which I' ; m sure not too many people know about that we had two airports here in San Marcos. So, Julia, you pose a good question. It always requires a little leg work talking just to the right people and getting people excited about things. Friedman: I would like to see that happen someday. I--(laughs) Brown: Maybe we can work together. (laughs) Friedman: Ooh, I like that. I guess see that as a project, as an exhibit. I could see that as many things. I' ; m excited. I hope to see that someday. (laughs) Brown: I would love that. Friedman: How have you seen your organization grow over the years? Brown: The Historical Society? Friedman: Yeah. Brown: Historical societies, or at least ours, has not grown. It has dwindled. I think a lot of--and hopefully that is not the--or it' ; s changed, I guess. I think there are less and less, not opportunities, but there are less and less people that get actively involved in volunteerism as much as I remember growing up. Or at least back in the [19]80s, because most people would retire, you know, between fifty-eight, sixty-five [years old], and then they would dedicate a few years to a civic organization. In talking with other historical societies in North County, groups like Kiwanis [Kiwanis International] and Rotary [San Diego Rotary], I' ; ve noticed a kind of a steady decline in those memberships. And I don' ; t think it' ; s because people aren' ; t equally as busy now as they used to be, but their time is spent differently than it maybe had been in the past. And I don' ; t know. I think my generation of people, or maybe it' ; s just me, I tend to be a joiner. I like doing stuff with other people because I think more gets accomplished. But that' ; s a good question. Something, I think about a lot in terms of, you know, again, what happens if our volunteers, you know, we don' ; t have as many people that are as interested in our future or our history and moving it forward. So, my big hope is kids as all, as we like to make sure that they think history is something important and to be cherished. Friedman: How do you like to reach out to school groups? Do you have like a school program? Do you have special exhibits for that? Brown: We have, prior to COVID, we had a pretty flourishing hands-on history program for elementary students and for the primary students, they would come out to Heritage Park and participate in kind of a round robin of activities. We' ; d have five different activities that they would participate in. They would learn about the Native American community that lived here in San Marcos. They would take a tour of two historical houses. They would learn a craft of what kids did one hundred and twenty years ago. What kind of crafts did they do? What kind of things did they have to work with? " ; Did they have markers? No." ; (laughs) So we do a little activity like that. We do games that kids played with pine cones and old equipment and things like that that are kind of made-up games. And then we do chores. So, they do outdoor laundry in the tub. They wash the clothes, they plant in the garden and they make biscuits and butter from scratch. So, and then at the end of the session, we get to taste the butter that we have made. So it' ; s really about, " ; What was life like in San Marcos back in 1890?" ; And so, kids get a chance to kind of see--we partner with the Vallecitos Water District, who' ; s very gracious to help bust the students out to Heritage Park. And then they also do a little session on water conservation. And it blends right into our concept of, you know, how did people wash their clothes and wash their dishes and where did they go to the bathroom and take a bath when there were no inside restrooms? So, it' ; s kind of an ecology lesson as well as a sustainability lesson, but also a history lesson as well. Friedman: Those sound really exciting. My next question I realize can pertain both to, I guess, lack of volunteers and also children' ; s education. I didn' ; t realize it pertained to what we just spoke about previously, but what would you like future historians to understand about lack of funding in both education and the nonprofit sphere? Brown: Well, I guess, you know, my family, both my husband and my fathers were both elementary school principals. So we' ; ve been in involved with public schools our whole lives, and supportive of what public schools do and taking advantage of just amazing teachers and, you know, people who give so much to help our kids learn. And I just think that, in today' ; s world, the things that we celebrate and invest in, while they are important, to know about, I just wish as much money could be invested into education. And I' ; m not just talking about K-12, I' ; m talking about higher education and as well. I' ; m a strong believer in lifelong learning and, you know, education, libraries, civic organizations are really the things that provide a huge quality of life in our community. And, you know, it, pains me a little that so much money goes into sports, and I' ; m not against sports, or other things that people are high ticket items, that don' ; t end up with a lot of bang for your buck. And I just think, that it' ; s something that we all share and we can always make better. I know there' ; s been a lot of, you know, down talking schools as a result of the last couple of years, and I just, feel bad that teachers kind of take a brunt of stuff and just trying to do the best I can every day. Friedman: Why do you think lack of funding could be so detrimental to the preservation and understanding of history? Brown: Well, I think, I mean, history tells a lot about where we go, and where we' ; ve been. And there are, I believe, cycles that come around. But I do think, you know, again, one of the things that excites me is that I get a lot of newsletters from schools and organizations just like Cal State San Marcos. I get the update of all the cool things that are going on on the campus on a weekly basis. And I compare that with the, you know, what' ; s on the news every night, which is kind of depressing. And I' ; m thinking, " ; Why aren' ; t we covering all these amazing things that are going on in the local schools?" ; And not just Cal State San Marcos or in our local schools, but a citywide and regionwide. I mean, students are just doing some amazing things but when there' ; s not a lot of money to support those kinds of things, it does really affect, especially, those who are not--don' ; t have the life experience to know that you can go to a free museum, or, you know, there are free things. And I do think that educational opportunities through schools provide a lot of awareness about ways to do things that don' ; t cost a lot of money or that are enrichment activities through the classrooms. So, and it takes money to pay for that stuff. Friedman: Yeah. That' ; s well said. What do you think these nonprofits need to do in order to survive during these difficult times? Brown: Stick together, I guess. (laughs) Well, you know what, you do what you can do. And, you know, I' ; m an advocate. I don' ; t like to, you know, diss people for what they' ; re not doing, but really, try to appreciate people for what they do do. And, you know, make the most of it. I think April is Volunteer Month and, you know, volunteering isn' ; t going to happen if people go and they' ; re not enjoying it, or they' ; re not getting some kind of reward out of it. And I think that' ; s, you know, we need to always kind of invest in our volunteers in terms of making sure that they are able to engage in the things they like to do when they come out and volunteer. But, the Historical Society--our members--we participate in a bigger group called CINCH [Council for the Interpretation of North County History], which is all the North County historical societies. We gather four times a year just to share ideas and, you know, tips and what they' ; re doing. And you never know when you' ; re going to get a really good idea from somebody that turns out to be lucrative. And then I' ; m always looking for partnerships. I' ; m always looking to work with our agencies, our city. We' ; re so lucky to be able to be in our city park. So we have people that come out to the park and walk by and try to talk to people that come by, invite them in. So yeah, I mean, that' ; s my approach and I guess have grant writers that will help find the money and put it in our hands. (laughs) Friedman: That' ; s always important. I would like to jump back a bit to San Marco Marcos' ; history. Brown: Okay. Friedman: From your experience working at the San Marcos Historical Society, who do you believe are some significant historical individuals in San Marcos history, such as prominent individuals or famous families? Brown: Okay. Well, the original home--well, first of all, the Twin Oaks area is primarily--was one of the settlement areas for the Luiseño tribe. And, well, I don' ; t have access to direct descendants of those--the mission band of Luiseño Indians are really the kind of the original homesteaders there in the Twin Oaks Valley. So, I think that we should always recognize that, you know, somebody was here before the first covered wagons came or anything like that. And then our Rancho period was very short in San Marcos. So, the first, like homesteader families that are still European homesteader families are the Merriam family. And there are a few of them still living and in this area. The Uhlands have a huge connection, not only to Heritage Park, but the whole Twin Oaks Valley area. And there are still Uhlands family members in town. The Fultons, and a lot of these, like the Fultons, the Bordens, the Barhams--those are all San Marcos street names. So, you don' ; t have to go too far to recognize that those families have had their own streets named after them. But we recently lost the original homestead of a Fulton family, which is very sad. They had a homestead at in San Marcos in 1893, and the last family member that had lived on the homestead, moved to Nebraska last fall. So, from 1893 to 2021, was inhabited by one family. And then also out here in Twin Oaks the Astleford family were only one of two families that owned property here in Twin Oaks Valley. I mentioned William Webster Borden, the Barhams. In the Richland area, there was another Borden, Reynold Bascom Borden his house is still standing in the Richland area. So, we have, you know, again, a number of families. Friedman: That' ; s really interesting. Are there also any individuals from San Marcos history that not as well known that we should know about such as individuals from marginalized communities? Brown: Well, actually, this is kind of interesting. Several years ago we took a world map and tried to chart all the places that, you know, people that had moved to San Marcos, where they had come from. And, while, one of the things that we realized is that we had had a very large community of Serbian and Yugoslavian families that moved to San Marcos. The Prohoroffs were originally from Russia. They moved to Mexico and then migrated up through Mexico to Southern California. We do have, we have Meadowlark Cemetery that is off Rancho Santa Fe Road. It was a pioneer cemetery over on the West end of San Marcos. And there are several homesteaders there that, you know, were there prior, between the 1850s, 1870. I' ; m trying to think of other--of course, you know, I look at photos of early San Marcos. We had Japanese, we had a lot of Japanese farmers that had to leave during World War II. We have a lot of Hispanic families that have come and gone through San Marcos. And usually, we will meet those people that will come to the museum that, you know, their grandparents worked at Prohoroff Ranch or in the, one of the farms here in San Marcos. But they don' ; t live here anymore. And so, we don' ; t have the longevity of their history. But I' ; m always anxious to, you know, find out some of those kind of stories that, have lived on. Friedman: That' ; s really interesting. Thank you. Brown: Julia. I need to get a drink. Friedman: Oh, sure. Brown: Can we stop for a minute? Friedman: Yeah, absolutely. So interview with Tanis Brown paused at 11:01. Interview with Tanis Brown resumed at 11:02. If you were to interview someone from San Marcos for an oral history interview, who would be, and why? Brown: Well, we have captured a lot of, kind of the old timey history in San Marcos from the 1800s, 1900s. But I am interested in working with people that maybe are in their sixties that have gone through the entire San Marcos school district, or actually moved here as young children and watched San Marcos grow. As an adult, I' ; m pretty aware of that, you know, kind of the development of the city. But it would be interesting to get a sense of a student' ; s perspective as they have grown. And now are adults and their take on San Marco' ; s history, kind of the next gen[eration] of history for the future. I mean, we have a lot of, you know, kind of more recently women in politics. And I would like to interview Pia Harris [San Marcos' ; first female council member], Rebecca Jones [San Marcos Mayor at time of recording], and also some of our city employees who have just an amazing background of knowledge of how things came to be. Friedman: I like that. Those are really interesting people to interview. How have you seen the city of San Marcos develop over the last forty years? Brown: (laughs) Well, when my kids first walked to school in San Marcos in 1976, Woodland Park was an elementary school. It' ; s now a middle school. And it was built in the seventies when there was really very little money for new schools. But it was an open school. So, there were no dividers. And the only dividers in the school were short bookcases. And when we walked down to meet the principal before school started, he was standing on a ladder in the very center of the building, looking around at all the--where the classrooms would be. And, we just kind of thought, " ; Oh my gosh." ; It was very interesting, but on the way, walking to school, our children had--we had to skirt a pasture to get to school. We don' ; t see that so much anymore. So those were kind of our first, you know, memories of moving to San Marcos and, really being in a rural community that neither my husband or I had ever felt so close to a rural atmosphere. To, you know, watching the university get built to watching buildings get moved and relocated for the city hall complex. For--certainly traffic is very different. There were no traffic signals in San Marcos until 1974. There was one four-way stop at Mission Empico Road when I was going to Palomar College. So that four-way stop on the first day school could get really crazy. But the thing that I feel kind of most proud about is that we really established, many years ago, that San Marcos would keep a quality of life through parks, open spaces, and trails, so that if you wanted to ride a bicycle from one end of town to the other, or to visit a park, there would be one in your neighborhood and you would have a connection to that. So that part of the growth of San Marcos, I think, is going to pay off in the long run as we continue to develop new neighborhoods like North City and still keeping a quality of life, as well as accommodating people who want to live here. And that doesn' ; t mean just a certain, you know, type of person. We need to keep are community a blended community. So young people, old people, any stripe of person can move to San Marcos, find a home, and a connection. And I think between city, and the organizations, and the resources that we have is that we want to be a welcoming place for anybody who comes to San Marcos. Yeah. Friedman: Thank you. What to you makes San Marcos and San Marcos history so fascinating to study? Brown: Well, I just like the idea that you can, you know, you can create things. I think people come to different communities. Something usually draws them to an area. Like even as back as the first tribal communities, they found what was going to meet their needs: water, flat land, access to food, and shelter. And, I think people are still doing that. They' ; re looking for something that meets their needs. And so I think as we move forward that it' ; s our responsibility to make sure that we provide opportunities for people that come here. I' ; m not sure I answered that question very well. Friedman: No you did, thank you. And what do you think is so important or what is important about understanding local history? Brown: Okay. Well, I think, I mean, history' ; s human. I mean, you know, a lot of people say, and we always have to second guess ourselves, because the minute you put something down on paper and then somebody--and it' ; s written and somebody' ; ll say, " ; Well, that isn' ; t the way I remember it." ; So, there' ; s so much humanity in history and it' ; s how we, you know, how we look at it and maybe our opinion of that history changes. But it is. And there isn' ; t just one history, you know. We all make our own history. And so, but I do think--I love the opportunity that we have, at least that I have, and that we' ; re willing to share about information that people felt was important enough to document back in the 1880s or [18]90s, and may have some relevance for us today. We recently were going through the Fulton papers, which we' ; re archiving, and we found a reference in a letter about the 1916 flood that was here in San Marcos, which we have a photo of in our museum. And that same letter also referenced the pandemic in 1918. So, to me, and it' ; s like, " ; Oh my gosh," ; because we didn' ; t, well, we weren' ; t necessarily looking for it, as it related to San Marcos, but when we saw it, it was like, " ; Oh my gosh," ; it talked about this lady who was willing to go over and help her neighbors out who had the Spanish Flu. And so here it was right here in San Marcos. And I don' ; t know, that just to me create some kind of bond between people from 1918 that were right here in the same neighborhood or in the same place that we were, or we are now. And, so I don' ; t know. That' ; s just so exciting to me that a hundred years ago they were experiencing kind of the same thing and not exactly knowing how to deal with it. So, not that much has changed in spite of all the cars, in spite of all the buildings, not that much has changed. We' ; re still people. And that' ; s what I think history is really about people' ; s stories. Friedman: Well, thank you so much, Tanis. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else you' ; d like to share today? Brown: Well, I would just like to say that, whoever is viewing this video is welcome to come out and visit Heritage Park in Walnut Grove Park. And, we welcome and would love to share history with you. Friedman: Very well said. Well, thank you. It was a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you so much for being part of this project. Brown: Well, I' ; m really happy to--I wasn' ; t expecting to do that. I was expecting to share other people' ; s names, but I' ; m happy to have shared my history with you. Friedman: Thank you. We' ; re so happy that you are a part of this project and we' ; re so happy to have your story become a part of our collection. Brown: Great. Me too. Friedman: Well, thank you. Brown: Okay. So is that, is that it. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Brown, Tanis. Interview April 13, 2022
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Tanis Brown is the President of the San Marcos Historical Society and is involved in many local history projects and educational outreach initiatives. In this interview, Tanis discusses her involvement in the city of San Marcos, CA since the 1970s. Tanis quickly became active in the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce and was among the first group of students to enroll in California State University San Marcos. A few years later, she became an employee of CSUSM, establishing the university’s first housing program and working in human resources. Now as President of the San Marcos Historical Society, Tanis is passionate about sharing San Marcos’ local history with her community and with future generations.
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SC027-20
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California State University San Marcos
San Marcos (Calif.) -- History
San Marcos Historical Society -- California -- San Marcos
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2022-04-13
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video
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Tanis Brown
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Julia Friedman
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San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos
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English
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Tanis Brown
Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Robert Sheehan
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Thao Ha
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.xml
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gang violence
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5.4 Oral history of Thao Ha, April 19, 2022 SC027-21 1:27:24 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Education Gangs -- Texas -- Houston Mira Costa College -- California -- Oceanside Refugees -- Vietnam Transitions (Program) Victims of violent crimes gang violence Thao Ha Robert Sheehan mp4 HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.mp4 1:|17(4)|30(1)|39(3)|50(1)|63(17)|75(3)|94(15)|109(3)|123(2)|136(1)|150(5)|157(9)|167(11)|180(4)|193(7)|203(4)|211(13)|221(4)|234(1)|246(1)|256(5)|269(2)|279(11)|291(3)|304(10)|314(8)|322(14)|335(2)|347(13)|360(13)|372(8)|381(10)|393(10)|406(5)|417(6)|427(2)|436(11)|445(16)|454(6)|463(2)|472(6)|484(14)|494(11)|507(3)|518(8)|529(10)|538(4)|544(14)|561(4)|571(16)|583(4)|601(7)|612(14)|625(18)|639(2)|650(7)|663(1)|674(13)|693(4)|705(8)|717(12)|727(14)|738(9)|750(6)|758(1)|769(2)|777(9)|789(5)|800(3)|810(5)|819(13)|831(3)|839(8)|849(4)|859(14)|870(13)|879(8)|888(14)|900(3)|910(2)|919(11)|928(16)|938(2)|951(13)|962(11)|972(15)|982(6) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e0bc9bd3a81619c640e7bc9fc529dc61.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction/ Childhood Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, “Oh my God, it must have been so scary.” (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, “Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives” by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Thao Ha discusses her early childhood. She was born in Vietnam and recounts the story of how she fled the country at the fall of Saigon as a toddler with her parents. She explains that they were processed into the United States as refugees and settled in San Antonio, Texas. HoChi Minh City ; refugees ; Saigon ; San Antonio (Tex.) ; Vietnam ; Vietnamese family 403 Family background/ Parents’ occupations Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or…? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, “How come you weren’t a pilot when you were already a pilot?” And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, “Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.” And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, “Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.” Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Thao Ha discusses her family’s background. She has two younger sisters and one younger brother. Their family also moved around often for their father’s work, and they have lived in San Antonio, TX, Knoxville, TN, Cedar Rapids, IA, and Houston, TX. Her family still resides in Houston. Thao also describes her parents’ occupations. Her father was a pilot in the South Vietnamese Air Force, but he had lost his log books when they fled to the U.S. In order to support his family, her father became a mechanic in the U.S. Thao explains that this is part of the refugee experience. She also explains that her mother was a seamstress who sewed t-shirts for babies in hospitals who was later contracted by an ophthalmologist to sew surgical eye patch garters. Her parents later collaborated with the ophthalmologist and worked together to create surgical eye patches that contained metal parts. Houston (Tex.) ; Mechanic ; pilot ; refugees ; Seamstresses ; Vietnamese family 845 Growing up in a Vietnamese community Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, “Go back to my own country,” you know, “Go back to your country.” And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I—I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, “Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,” and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Thao Ha discusses her experience growing up in a Vietnamese community in Houston, TX. She explains that Houston was an area in which secondary migration occurred for Vietnamese refugees due to job opportunities and affordable housing. Thao describes feeling connected to her community in Houston ; she had many Vietnamese friends in school, she spoke the language at home, and there were Vietnamese stores in town. As a refugee, however, Thao did also experience bullying and racism from other children in her community. It was also during this time that Thao began associating with other kids who had formed gangs. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; refugees ; Vietnamese community ; Vietnamese family ; Vietnamese-American gangs 1137 Relationship with sisters / Gang affiliations in Houston, TX Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, “Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,” right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was—you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you’re in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, “Oh, I fallen and I can't get up,” and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, “They looked like gangsters,” and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, “Oh my God! We know him,” but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Thao Ha discusses the responsibilities of being the eldest child in an immigrant household. She felt that there was a lot of pressure placed on her to set a good example for her younger siblings and to ensure their safety. Thao also explains the culture of gang affiliation for immigrant youth and teenagers. In Houston, Thao describes that gang affiliation was needed as a means for protection against non-Vietnamese teenagers. She further describes her teenage years living in Houston and her experience with friends and family in gangs. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; Refugees ; Vietnamese family ; Vietnamese-American gangs 1921 School years Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, “I did this like three years ago.” (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, “Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now.” So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, “Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author.” And my parents were like, “Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?” And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, “Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.” And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don’t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, “Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I’ll just figure it out later and take the test.” Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it—or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking “Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.” And going more towards thinking “Well maybe I'll just get a job,” because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, “I don't know what I'm going to do.” And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, “That's it. I'll just go get a job.” And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, “Okay,” something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, “Okay, that's it, it's time to—" ; it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, “Okay if I go back to school,” which I definitely wanted to do, “I will study something that I want to.” And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, “Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!” And I thought, “Well, I will study law,” so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, “Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,” and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Thao Ha first discusses her middle school and high school years. She recounts excelling in many subjects, but that fighting with students and truancy caused other problems while in the school system. She graduated from high school Cum Laude but describes struggling to find her path in college. Many of her friends were still involved in gang activity, and she did not know where she belonged. She explains that she decided to leave college and find a job to support her family. She also explains that after being shot in a pool hall and seeing more friends enter the prison system, she decided to go back to college and studying sociology. Crime ; Education ; Refugee ; Sociology ; Vietnamese-American gangs 2475 Getting shot at a pool hall Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie’s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, “Okay, we got to get out of here,” right? “We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.” So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, “Okay, we got to get out of here!” And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, “There's a fight outside. We got to go!” So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, “Bang, bang, bang.” We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, “Why does my arm hurt so bad?” And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, “Fuck, I got shot!” right? And everybody's like, “What, what, what!?” And so, I'm like, “Drive to hospital!” Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking “What just happened?” And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe just what happened.” And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, “Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.” And I was just like, “Ow!” It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, “No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this.” Like, “If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here.” I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, “Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,” right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, “Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky.” Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, “Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter.” I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, “Oh, you see that?” And so, he was pointing, and he said, “That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm.” And then he goes, “Oh, you see that? That's her nerve.” So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He’s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, “So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.” So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, “Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis.” And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents “Two millimeters.” That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, “Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up.” Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, “Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!” You know you watch on TV and it's like, “Let me know if you're cold!” Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, “I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it’s just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again.” Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, “What are your goals?” I was like, “Well I want to play volleyball again.” And he was like, “I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work.” Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Thao Ha describes in further detail the night she was shot at an American pool hall called Slick Willie’s. She recalls many Vietnamese at the pool hall that night when a fight broke out. She explains that she was shot as she and her friends were escaping the pool hall. She also describes her experience in the hospital and speaking with police. Thao also describes how being shot affected her volleyball career. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; pool halls ; refugee ; Vietnamese-American gangs 3230 Studying sociology in university Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, “I will write with my right hand!” So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, “Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything,” right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, “People study Vietnamese people?” It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. “Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.” So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, “Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor.” And I will never forget. She's like, “Oh, I know you.” she's like, “You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?” And I said, “No,” and she said, “Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!” And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, “Wow! I feel so special.” So, I said, “Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.” (laughs) And she was like, “You want to go to law school, huh?” So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, “Do you want to work eighty hours a week?” And I was like, “No.” And she said, “Well, you know that’s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality.” She was like, “Have you ever thought about being a professor?” I said, “No.” She said, “Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,” right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, “Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.” And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, “How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.” And I'm like, “Oh, wow.” So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, “I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side.” So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, “Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!” And I'm like, “Oh my God.” (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, “Your daughter should be a professor.” And my parents like, “Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.” (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Thao Ha recounts her decision to study sociology in college. Thao describes how her sociology professor mentored her in undergrad, provided her with research opportunities, and influenced her to go into teaching. Education ; Immigration studies ; refugee ; Sociology ; Teaching 3538 Decision to go into teaching / Dichotomy of identities Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. “Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.” And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, “If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.” So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, “Oh man, that's really what I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore,” and my parents were like, “Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer.” (laughs) “You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?” That's my mom, right? Like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.” So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, “Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.” So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, “Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study.” So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like “I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.” I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Thao Ha continues to discuss her decision to go into teaching. She also describes the dichotomy of her identity while in graduate school. She explains that she felt that she had to let go of her past while earning her PhD. Once Thao began working with individuals in the California prison system, however, she began to reconcile her past and present identities. Crime ; Education ; Identity ; Immigration studies ; refugee ; Refugee Studies ; Sociology ; Teaching ; Vietnamese-American gangs 3936 Future of the judicial system Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, “We should just do away with prisons,” prison abolition, like, “We don't need prisons in society.” And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, “Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society.” So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Thao Ha discusses the future of the judicial system. She explains her complicated opinions regarding the prison abolition movement and how she instead supports abolishing for-profit prisons and lifetime sentences for youth. Crime ; For-profit prisons ; Prison ; Prison abolition movements ; Refugee ; Wrongful convictions 4440 Family experiences with wrongful convictions/ Thoughts on reduced sentencing Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, “Oh, you did that and so you get out,” but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, “Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society,” people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Thao Ha discusses her family experiences with wrongful convictions in the prison system. She explains how a wrongful conviction can turn into a life sentence and how some punishments do not fit the crime. Thao also explains how reduced prison sentencing can depend on each state’s law. She discusses the different reduced sentencing laws in California and Texas. California ; Crime ; Prison ; Reduced sentencing ; Refugee ; Texas ; Wrongful convictions 4814 The value of education/ Experience teaching at a community college Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don’t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, “Well, I learned that on TikTok.” Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, “Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!” I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, “Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?” And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, “I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.” And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, “I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.” So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Thao Ha reflects on the value of education. She understands that a university education is expensive for many students and wants to see education become more accessible. She also discusses her career as a professor in the community college system and explains her passion for connecting with her students in a close-knit learning environment. Community college ; Education ; Refugee ; Sociology ; Teaching Oral history Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at Mira Costa College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I' ; m here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that' ; s where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they' ; ve shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they' ; re in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn' ; t really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' ; lens, I' ; m like, " ; Oh my God, it must have been so scary." ; (laughs) And, she' ; s got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn' ; t crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that' ; s the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That' ; s incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn' ; t had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, " ; Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives" ; by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you' ; re running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father' ; s kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he' ; s just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that' ; s when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that' ; s where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family' ; s still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or--? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, " ; How come you weren' ; t a pilot when you were already a pilot?" ; And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn' ; t they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren' ; t, that' ; s something they didn' ; t take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, " ; Well, I can' ; t be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do." ; And they just, you know I think that' ; s part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' ; generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can' ; t be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you' ; re alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don' ; t think he has any--I' ; m not sure, that was a good question. I' ; ll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it' ; s one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren' ; t really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they' ; re newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here' ; s where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, " ; Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter." ; Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn' ; t want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That' ; s really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there' ; s a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it' ; s not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn' ; t have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, " ; Go back to my own country," ; you know, " ; Go back to your country." ; And just the things that you' ; ll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I--I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, " ; Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied," ; and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that' ; s when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that' ; s like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there' ; s a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there' ; s a dichotomy. There' ; s the Thao at home. And then there' ; s the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that' ; s a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they' ; ll tell you like, " ; Oh, it was okay for them to go out together," ; right? Like if there' ; s three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you' ; d have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn' ; t get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I' ; m going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it' ; s kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny' ; s not the right word, but it' ; s interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there' ; s an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don' ; t see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there' ; s another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you' ; re in the math club or if you' ; re in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there' ; s fun in that as well, but there' ; s also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you' ; re not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I' ; m sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don' ; t want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was--you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn' ; t necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you' ; re in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad' ; s youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he' ; s a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he' ; s in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who' ; s his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That' ; s the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you' ; re constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you' ; re in a social setting who you don' ; t want to mess with, and who you don' ; t want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don' ; t know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, " ; Oh, I fallen and I can' ; t get up," ; and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they' ; d hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they' ; d rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That' ; s how he described them, " ; They looked like gangsters," ; and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn' ; t do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America' ; s Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI' ; s most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America' ; s Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, " ; Oh my God! We know him," ; but we didn' ; t know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that' ; s kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I' ; d kind of like to circle back to your education. As you' ; re going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you' ; re doing well in school. But those two don' ; t seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I' ; m like, " ; I did this like three years ago." ; (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn' ; t learning. And I came home and I told my dad, " ; Hey, I don' ; t know, dad. Like, I don' ; t know what you want from us. I' ; m sorry that we messed up. And I' ; m sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I' ; m getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I' ; m in the eighth grade now." ; So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don' ; t have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, " ; Oh, I' ; d love to be like a journalist or an author." ; And my parents were like, " ; Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?" ; And I didn' ; t know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, " ; Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something." ; And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn' ; t let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don' ; t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, " ; Oh, they don' ; t take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don' ; t have to go to class. I' ; ll just figure it out later and take the test." ; Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn' ; t work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn' ; t enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it--or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking " ; Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me." ; And going more towards thinking " ; Well maybe I' ; ll just get a job," ; because I need to help my friends figure out what they' ; re doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, " ; I don' ; t know what I' ; m going to do." ; And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn' ; t do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, " ; That' ; s it. I' ; ll just go get a job." ; And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, " ; Okay," ; something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, " ; Okay, that' ; s it, it' ; s time to--" ; it' ; s a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that' ; s when I decided, " ; Okay if I go back to school," ; which I definitely wanted to do, " ; I will study something that I want to." ; And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, " ; Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We' ; re just happy you' ; re alive!" ; And I thought, " ; Well, I will study law," ; so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, " ; Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer," ; and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there' ; s a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie' ; s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there' ; s problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, " ; Okay, we got to get out of here," ; right? " ; We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now." ; So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We' ; re like, " ; Okay, we got to get out of here!" ; And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I' ; m recounting this because it' ; s about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would' ; ve left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, " ; There' ; s a fight outside. We got to go!" ; So, we' ; re running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we' ; re running to the car, that' ; s when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we' ; d already heard, " ; Bang, bang, bang." ; We' ; d already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that' ; s when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don' ; t know if you' ; ve never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don' ; t know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn' ; t even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that' ; s kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, " ; Why does my arm hurt so bad?" ; And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I' ; m like, " ; Fuck, I got shot!" ; right? And everybody' ; s like, " ; What, what, what!?" ; And so, I' ; m like, " ; Drive to hospital!" ; Because we can' ; t call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I' ; m in the car backseat and my sister' ; s trying to tie a tourniquet and I' ; m sitting here thinking " ; What just happened?" ; And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It' ; s like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that' ; s when I was like, " ; Oh my God, I can' ; t believe just what happened." ; And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, " ; Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that." ; And I was just like, " ; Ow!" ; It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn' ; t as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that' ; s what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, " ; No, I don' ; t want to, I don' ; t want to continue this." ; Like, " ; If you go shoot up that guy, they' ; re going to come back, shoot us up. Let' ; s just end this here." ; I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn' ; t want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, " ; Let' ; s just end here. I' ; m going to trust the legal system. I' ; m going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen," ; right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That' ; s intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, " ; Oh, she' ; s super lucky. She' ; s super lucky." ; Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, " ; Look at her X-ray. There' ; s bullet matter, there' ; s bone matter, there' ; s tissue matter." ; I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, " ; Oh, you see that?" ; And so, he was pointing, and he said, " ; That' ; s her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would' ; ve had to amputate her arm." ; And then he goes, " ; Oh, you see that? That' ; s her nerve." ; So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He' ; s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He' ; s like, " ; So we' ; re going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don' ; t know how much mobility she' ; ll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she' ; ll have her arm. We won' ; t have to cut it off and she' ; ll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back." ; So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, " ; Oh, okay. So, I' ; m lucky to be alive. I' ; m lucky not to have amputation. I' ; m lucky to have, not paralysis." ; And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don' ; t know why, but I remember him telling my parents " ; Two millimeters." ; That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, " ; Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don' ; t screw it up." ; Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It' ; s like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You' ; re so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she' ; s freaking out. She' ; s like, " ; Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!" ; You know you watch on TV and it' ; s like, " ; Let me know if you' ; re cold!" ; Right? Like, because somebody' ; s dying. And I was like, " ; I don' ; t think I' ; m dying sis[ter], I think it' ; s just my arm. But I don' ; t know if I' ; m going to ever play volleyball again." ; Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, " ; What are your goals?" ; I was like, " ; Well I want to play volleyball again." ; And he was like, " ; I can' ; t promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It' ; s going to be how hard you work." ; Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I' ; m missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn' ; t have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That' ; s good to hear. So, you' ; ve got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there' ; s a lot of scar tissue in there. It' ; s not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it' ; s not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there' ; s just too much scar tissue. So, it can' ; t bend and it gets sore more easily. There' ; s been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it' ; s all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I' ; m assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, " ; I will write with my right hand!" ; So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there' ; s one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I' ; m being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, " ; Oh gosh, if I could just change one person' ; s life, it would mean everything," ; right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I' ; m like, " ; People study Vietnamese people?" ; It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. " ; Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay." ; So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that' ; s why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there' ; s something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, " ; Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you' ; re my sociology professor." ; And I will never forget. She' ; s like, " ; Oh, I know you." ; she' ; s like, " ; You' ; re a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?" ; And I said, " ; No," ; and she said, " ; Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!" ; And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, " ; Wow! I feel so special." ; So, I said, " ; Well, I came to ask you if there' ; s any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school." ; (laughs) And she was like, " ; You want to go to law school, huh?" ; So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, " ; Do you want to work eighty hours a week?" ; And I was like, " ; No." ; And she said, " ; Well, you know that' ; s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I' ; m just giving you a reality." ; She was like, " ; Have you ever thought about being a professor?" ; I said, " ; No." ; She said, " ; Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week," ; right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, " ; Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman." ; And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, " ; How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community." ; And I' ; m like, " ; Oh, wow." ; So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, " ; I want you to present your paper at a conference. It' ; s going to be at the college, and you' ; ll be in front of hundreds of people, but don' ; t worry, I' ; ll be there. I' ; ll be right there by your side." ; So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don' ; t know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, " ; Oh, we' ; re so proud of you. You did so well!" ; And I' ; m like, " ; Oh my God." ; (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I' ; m sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, " ; Your daughter should be a professor." ; And my parents like, " ; Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor." ; (laughs) Sheehan: It' ; s nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor' ; s Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. " ; Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor' ; s now you can get in and finish your Master' ; s in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you' ; ll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area." ; And so literally she laid out this option for me. She' ; s like, " ; If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then." ; So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, " ; Oh man, that' ; s really what I want to do. I don' ; t think I want to I go to law school anymore," ; and my parents were like, " ; Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don' ; t want to be a lawyer." ; (laughs) " ; You' ; re going to have to lie. You have to lie if you' ; re a lawyer, do you want to do that?" ; That' ; s my mom, right? Like, " ; Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom." ; So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that' ; s a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can' ; t hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I' ; m like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn' ; t what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he' ; s like, " ; Just forget about us. We' ; re not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on." ; So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn' ; t like, " ; Oh, you should totally make this your Master' ; s degree study." ; So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like " ; I' ; m not going to tell anybody that' ; s who I was. I don' ; t want them to judge me. I don' ; t want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him." ; I don' ; t tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn' ; t until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it' ; s very full circle. So that' ; s where I' ; m at now. And that' ; s kind of the work that I champion, and I' ; m not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn' ; t exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you' ; ve had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that' ; s a really good question, because there' ; s so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, " ; We should just do away with prisons," ; prison abolition, like, " ; We don' ; t need prisons in society." ; And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it' ; s very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who' ; ve done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It' ; s like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It' ; s a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there' ; s other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they' ; re out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don' ; t think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who' ; ve done long, long prison sentences. So, I' ; m not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they' ; ve done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don' ; t think that that works. There' ; s no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, " ; Well, you' ; re done. We just need to be done with you in society." ; So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that' ; s a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we' ; ve seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we' ; re dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that' ; s a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we' ; re allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it' ; s awful. I mean, let' ; s look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They' ; re not fully developed. We do stupid things when we' ; re young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would' ; ve gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would' ; ve went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there' ; s already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I' ; m in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it' ; s one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it' ; s not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let' ; s say there' ; s a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I' ; ve seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you' ; re eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you' ; re forty-eight years old. You' ; ve missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we' ; re incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there' ; s a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn' ; t really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I' ; m not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would' ; ve happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That' ; s a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn' ; t like an automatic, like, " ; Oh, you did that and so you get out," ; but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, " ; Okay, you' ; ve changed, and you' ; ve rehabilitated, and you' ; re no longer threat to society," ; people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn' ; t necessarily violent, let' ; s say you--I' ; m trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn' ; t inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you' ; re not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there' ; s been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you' ; re probably going do your full time. You' ; re not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I' ; m coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I' ; ll guess I' ; ll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you' ; d like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it' ; s 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It' ; s not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don' ; t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who' ; s twenty years old, and she' ; s like, " ; Well, I learned that on TikTok." ; Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they' ; re formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they' ; re like, " ; Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!" ; I don' ; t think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you' ; ll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That' ; s a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don' ; t mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don' ; t. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn' ; t applied to any universities yet, I didn' ; t qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, " ; Man, I' ; ve got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?" ; And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that' ; s different from university, but that' ; s also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let' ; s not discount it, given that we' ; re going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we' ; re not in person, right? But we' ; re human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can' ; t untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, " ; I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact." ; And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, " ; I' ; m going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way." ; So, there' ; s a financial benefit, there' ; s the social benefit, there' ; s the intimidation factor that is less because you' ; re not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, " ; Oh my God, it must have been so scary." ; (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, " ; Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives" ; by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or--? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, " ; How come you weren't a pilot when you were already a pilot?" ; And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, " ; Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do." ; And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, " ; Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter." ; Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, " ; Go back to my own country," ; you know, " ; Go back to your country." ; And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I--I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, " ; Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied," ; and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, " ; Oh, it was okay for them to go out together," ; right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was--you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you're in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, " ; Oh, I fallen and I can't get up," ; and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, " ; They looked like gangsters," ; and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, " ; Oh my God! We know him," ; but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, " ; I did this like three years ago." ; (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, " ; Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now." ; So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, " ; Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author." ; And my parents were like, " ; Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?" ; And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, " ; Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something." ; And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don't know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, " ; Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I'll just figure it out later and take the test." ; Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it--or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking " ; Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me." ; And going more towards thinking " ; Well maybe I'll just get a job," ; because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, " ; I don't know what I'm going to do." ; And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, " ; That's it. I'll just go get a job." ; And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, " ; Okay," ; something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, " ; Okay, that's it, it's time to--" ; it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, " ; Okay if I go back to school," ; which I definitely wanted to do, " ; I will study something that I want to." ; And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, " ; Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!" ; And I thought, " ; Well, I will study law," ; so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, " ; Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer," ; and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie's. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, " ; Okay, we got to get out of here," ; right? " ; We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now." ; So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, " ; Okay, we got to get out of here!" ; And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, " ; There's a fight outside. We got to go!" ; So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, " ; Bang, bang, bang." ; We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, " ; Why does my arm hurt so bad?" ; And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, " ; Fuck, I got shot!" ; right? And everybody's like, " ; What, what, what!?" ; And so, I'm like, " ; Drive to hospital!" ; Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking " ; What just happened?" ; And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, " ; Oh my God, I can't believe just what happened." ; And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, " ; Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that." ; And I was just like, " ; Ow!" ; It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, " ; No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this." ; Like, " ; If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here." ; I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, " ; Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen," ; right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, " ; Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky." ; Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, " ; Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter." ; I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, " ; Oh, you see that?" ; And so, he was pointing, and he said, " ; That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm." ; And then he goes, " ; Oh, you see that? That's her nerve." ; So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He's like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, " ; So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back." ; So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, " ; Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis." ; And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents " ; Two millimeters." ; That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, " ; Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up." ; Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, " ; Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!" ; You know you watch on TV and it's like, " ; Let me know if you're cold!" ; Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, " ; I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it's just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again." ; Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, " ; What are your goals?" ; I was like, " ; Well I want to play volleyball again." ; And he was like, " ; I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work." ; Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, " ; I will write with my right hand!" ; So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, " ; Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything," ; right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, " ; People study Vietnamese people?" ; It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. " ; Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay." ; So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, " ; Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor." ; And I will never forget. She's like, " ; Oh, I know you." ; she's like, " ; You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?" ; And I said, " ; No," ; and she said, " ; Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!" ; And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, " ; Wow! I feel so special." ; So, I said, " ; Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school." ; (laughs) And she was like, " ; You want to go to law school, huh?" ; So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, " ; Do you want to work eighty hours a week?" ; And I was like, " ; No." ; And she said, " ; Well, you know that's the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality." ; She was like, " ; Have you ever thought about being a professor?" ; I said, " ; No." ; She said, " ; Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week," ; right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, " ; Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman." ; And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, " ; How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community." ; And I'm like, " ; Oh, wow." ; So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, " ; I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side." ; So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, " ; Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!" ; And I'm like, " ; Oh my God." ; (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, " ; Your daughter should be a professor." ; And my parents like, " ; Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor." ; (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. " ; Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area." ; And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, " ; If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then." ; So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, " ; Oh man, that's really what I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore," ; and my parents were like, " ; Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer." ; (laughs) " ; You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?" ; That's my mom, right? Like, " ; Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom." ; So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, " ; Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on." ; So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, " ; Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study." ; So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like " ; I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him." ; I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, " ; We should just do away with prisons," ; prison abolition, like, " ; We don't need prisons in society." ; And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, " ; Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society." ; So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, " ; Oh, you did that and so you get out," ; but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, " ; Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society," ; people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don't know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, " ; Well, I learned that on TikTok." ; Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, " ; Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!" ; I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, " ; Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?" ; And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, " ; I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact." ; And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, " ; I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way." ; So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Ha, Thao. Interview April 19, 2022
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Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at MiraCosta College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway.
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SC027-21
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Education
Gangs -- Texas -- Houston
MiraCosta College -- Transitions Program
Refugees -- Vietnam
Transitions (Program)
Victims of violent crimes
Date
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2022-04-19
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video
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Thao Ha
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Robert Sheehan
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Houston (Tex.)
Oceanside (Calif.)
Vietnam
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California State University San Marcos
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English
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Thao Ha
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Community history
History Department internship
Immigrant experience
Women's experience
-
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Oral Histories
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Riccardo Savo
Interviewee
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Dinah Poellnitz
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PoellnitzDinah_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-05.xml
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5.4 SC027 Poellnitz, Dinah. Interview April 5, 2023. SC027-025 1:06:11 SC027 California State University San Marcos Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Art -- Study and teaching Art galleries -- nonprofit Artists, Black Community Engagement Hill Street Country Club -- California -- Oceanside Los Angeles (Calif.) Oceanside (Calif.) Vista (Calif.) Dinah Poellnitz Riccardo Savo Audio PoellnitzDinah_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-05 1:|12(18)|22(4)|33(2)|44(5)|57(13)|67(4)|77(15)|88(4)|102(14)|114(6)|130(6)|140(4)|150(11)|161(15)|173(4)|183(11)|196(7)|209(3)|220(15)|233(1)|245(3)|255(12)|265(16)|277(11)|287(10)|298(7)|310(4)|320(3)|333(12)|343(18)|354(1)|366(9)|376(1)|386(1)|397(2)|407(17)|424(2)|432(13)|442(5)|454(1)|463(7)|474(1)|485(3)|497(13)|508(2)|518(4)|531(5)|542(11)|553(12)|567(11)|578(4)|595(10)|605(12)|616(9)|627(5)|638(15)|648(10)|660(4)|668(10)|680(5)|690(5)|701(13)|710(8)|722(3)|736(6)|750(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4344d88bc2e671e3ad4b1f4ea85cfba8.wav Other audio English 40 Interest in Art and How Art Relates to Community Engagement Poellnitz discusses how she initially was exposed to art at the age of 11, where she began to take up drawing through a family friend. drafting material ; drawing ; North County ; Oceanside 216 High School and the 1990s Dinah Poellnitz describes how her interest in art coincided with the development and mainstreaming of hip-hip during the 1990s. She mentions how she was drawn to the expressionist element that art represented. dance ; hip-hop ; Oceanside,CA ; Vista,CA 246 Self-Engagement with Art Dinah Poellnitz elaborates on how her interest in fashion and making her own dresses instilled her creativity in making art with intention. She mentions her time at Santa Monica College where she got to see firsthand how art could be used as a language to communicate, organize, and protest. art intentionality ; fashion ; Santa Monica College ; Soul Train 508 Art History and University of California, Riverside Dinah Poellnitz discusses how her networking in college at both Santa Monica College and UC Riverside helped to expose her to the business part of art. Poellnitz decided to double major in art history and art administration to learn what it means to operate a studio gallery and exhibit. Amy Goodman ; Intentionality ; Politics ; Santa Monica College 606 Getting a Job in the Art Industry Dinah Poellnitz discusses more broadly how she transitioned from her initial job positions in Los Angeles, CA to San Diego's North County. Beginning with the Oceanside Museum of Art, Poellnitz's experience in volunteering with youth led to learning about civic engagement and city planning. Primarily, she focuses on the challenges and inequities that she observed amongst Black children who had no prior engagement with art materials and what it means to be an artist. Hill Street Country Club ; inequity ; Los Angeles ; North County ; Oceanside Museum of Art ; Vista, CA 1196 Artist Networking in San Diego and Oceanside Dinah Poellnitz mentions how her idea to create the Hill Street Country Club came from the contacts that she developed with other local artists in Oceanside. In particular, she recalls an instance she met the owner of the Link-Soul art space, Jeff Cunningham, who provided her with the opportunity to create a space of her own. Art Exhibitions ; Link-Soul ; Oceanside Education Department ; Oceanside Museum of Art 1546 The Networking and Structuring of the Hill Street Country Club Dinah Poellnitz elaborate on the two primary contacts that assisted in her founding of the Hill Street County Club. Jeff Cunningham ; Julia Fister ; Studio Ace Art Gallery 1652 Hill Street Country Club Art Exhibit and Activism Dinah Poellnitz discusses the challenges in funding that came in comparison to other local exhibits in the North County. Specifically, Poellnitz elaborates on how the Hill Street Country Club's artists all share similar outlooks on the art industry and how their work is a critique of social inequities. autonomy ; inequity ; microaggression ; social impact 2017 Hill Street Country Club and the Pandemic Dinah Poellnitz provides insight to how Hill Street Country Club had to adapt to the changes brought on by the 2020 pandemic and remain open despite other exhibits closing their doors. 2020 pandemic ; mental health 2222 The Economic Hardships of the Pandemic within the Art Community Dinah Poellnitz offers an insight on the effects that the traumatic events of police brutality had on those within the Black art community. Poellnitz reflects on the general mood and tone of the Oceanside community during the initial months of the pandemic. community conversations ; empathy ; liberation ; resources ; solidarity 2448 Changes in both Activism and Structure Dinah Poellnitz briefly mentions how Hill Street had to evolve over the course of the pandemic, providing the creative space to assist in the mental health crisis that developed over the course of 2020. group therapy ; Oceanside Unified School District ; The Social 2724 Oceanside Unified School District and Group Therapy for Middle School Children Dinah Poellnitz goes into detail discussing how Hill Street offered children from Jefferson Middle School group therapy sessions to handle with the stress from the pandemic. She elaborates on the lengths that Hill Street had to change to adhere to COVID protocols with social distancing and interaction. cohorts ; COVID-19 ; Jefferson Middle School ; social camp 3065 The Community Reception to Hill Street's Restructuring and Outreach Dinah Poellnitz describes how Hill Street became a model of inspiration during the pandemic for other exhibits to follow. She offers the reception that Hill Street received from the local community for their initiatives with the Oceanside Unified School District. budget ; gallery space ; impact ; influence 3512 The Future of the Hill Street County Club Dinah Poellnitz provides the vision that she hopes for the Hill Street Country Club, primarily the creation of a Community School. While much of this vision has not been enacted, Poellnitz offers some of the challenges that would come in the face of creating a K-12 community school. bigger institution ; community school ; organizations ; partnerships wav Oral History Interview of Dinah Poellnitz on April 5, 2023. Video briefly discusses Dinah Poellnitz’s community engagement within the city of Oceanside through art. In particular, the interview focuses on Poellnitz's involvement in the founding of the Hill Street Country Club art gallery in Oceanside, CA. Poellnitz discusses how to navigate through the art community as a Black woman, emphasizing the importance of equity and inclusion. Riccardo Savo: Awesome. Alright, so today is April 5th, 2023. I am Riccardo Savo, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. I' ; m interviewing Dinah Poellnitz for the University Library Special Collections Oral Project. Thank you so much for being here with me today. Unfortunately, you' ; re not able to have the video, so we' ; ll just rely on audio today, which is perfectly fine. And I would like to begin quite broadly if we can, if you could tell me how you became interested in art and how you initially related it to the community or to community engagement. Dinah Poellnitz: Um, then that' ; s like a childhood memory question for me. I' ; m from North County. My dad came to Oceanside Camp Pendleton in the seventies. I was born in [19]76. I think my dad came out here in [19]78 and we lived on base and if you know anything about North County during that time, it was like, you go to church, you watch sports... and that was it, you know? And my mom' ; s from the South. She' ; s from Louisiana and you know, my mom' ; s about church and we used to go to church all the time. And my mom had a friend named Carla. She was like a wacky woman too. She was just elusive, like all over the place. She used to be an architect and she saw that I loved to draw. And so one day she just gave me her drafting table and I was, I could, I think I was like in -- 11 years-old -- and she brought all her materials and stuff to my house and I was just like, whaaaat? It was like a whole new world. I was just like, wait... there' ; s a table made just for drawing? That happens? You know, it was like one of those moments. And I used to dr-- I wanted to be a costume designer, so I used to draw dresses and fashion all the time on that table. And I had a whole setup. But I just remember just being this little kid who had my own little like, workspace and, and it was just for me to draw. And I was like, wow, there' ; s a, there' ; s... you could do this. Like, this is not a like day, you know, day drawing at home. This like, you could really do this as a, like, as an adult. So yeah, I was maybe like 11 and it was Carla from Fresh Bread Church. < ; laughter> ; Savo: That' ; s awesome. So, you began this at age 11 and did you carry this through to your high school? Because I know you attended UC [University of California] Riverside and earned your Bachelor' ; s in art history. Poellnitz: Yeah, I did. You know, like I was a kid that always made my own. Like I made my own. I designed dresses. I made my own prom dress. I sewed it, I wore it. I was heavily into -- It was the nineties in high school. And so, my parents, my dad retired, and then we moved outta Oceanside and moved to Vista for my high school years. And... it was hip-hop era, so I was like into dance and music. So that was all part of art and expression. But I remember wanting to be in the art clubs and I was just like, I can' ; t if that, if art club' ; s about realism and like drawing like things perfectly, I don' ; t have time for that. That' ; s real. I was just like, I don' ; t even, I' ; m not even curious to learn that. I don' ; t wanna do that. Cause that' ; s what art club was defined as in high school for me. Savo: So would you say that your engagement was more self-disciplined? It was more geared towards how you wanted to engage with it, or more or less, how you could find avenues to apply it? Poellnitz: Um, it was more intentional for me. You know, I like fashion, so I drew. I drew dresses and I designed a dress and I sewed a dress and I wore it. It was just, it was all intentional. It was like just being, it was an action, it was a language for me. It was... it was a skill, you know, I just thought very creatively all the time. Even when I was learning economics, I was thinking about it creatively so it can make sense for me. I think they say that artists are like divergent thinkers, you know? We always find or create and build and make an alternative solution to solve a problem in art. So that' ; s kind of like that, that' ; s a habit. Um, yeah, ' ; cause in, in high school, I used to go dancing. I used to go to like, this is corny as hell: I used to skip school and go to the Soul Train and dance in Soul Train in High School. I was just expressive. It was a very creative, like moment as a kid for me being in high school in the nineties, like hip hop was like jazzy like baggy and like there was more Black designers like Dubbo jeans and FUBU and all that stuff came out. So it was kinda like a Renaissance era, even though I lived in, in a little North County and, you know, Blacks were a smaller percent of the community. There' ; s like, that culture was just present when I was in high school. So me not wanting-- Me not wanting to join like the art club for high school and draw something perfectly was just like, eh, I can have fun. That feels like studying for economics. I don' ; t wanna do that right now. I wanna enjoy creativity right now. I don' ; t wanna study it. I was not in that mood. It was just a part of my life, you know? So... and then I used to go to LA every summer when I was in high school to get away from North County and stay with my cousins who worked at movie theaters. And that' ; s when I was exposed to like museums and galleries and, you know, and I took a class at Santa Monica College and that' ; s when I learned like, oh snap, you can learn art history? This is more interesting than like actually drawing the horse, you know? Um, I just learned that art had intentions all the time. Like I was, I was also like poor, you know? And I' ; m a, I come from a Black family, so to venture off into art, it' ; s just like: you gotta make sure it makes money! My uncle in LA is like, what are you getting a degree in? Are you gonna be able to teach with that? I' ; m just like, hmm, I don' ; t know, you know, and, but I enjoy it and I excelled at it. And like, I had a teacher, I took like Japanese art history at Santa Monica College, and I was just blown away by the history, like the political history, the social impact, just like everything that you see in art, like how it' ; s a reflection of like moments of history or just moments of inequity. I thought that was very interesting how artists could use that as a language to communicate, to organize, to protest, to be expressive of what they don' ; t like in society. So yeah, I loved art history and that was like perfect for me. Cause when I think about it, I was into dance and music, hip-hop culture because it felt liberating. I designed and made my own prom dress because, you know, it gave me ownership. And those are like human right feelings. Savo: And speaking to that, about the ownership and the intentionality, your decision to do art history as a degree and as a major, was that a choice that you made? Was that a choice that you had made from Santa Monica to UC Riverside? Poellnitz: Mm-hmm Savo: OK- Poellnitz: It was intentional. Yeah. So I, when I was at Santa Monica, it was cool. I had a lot of friends and they were like all into politics. I saw Amy Goodman when I went to Santa Monica College. And so I had a lot of friends who were into like, the political and social justice part of education. And I was like, I wanna do art history. < ; laughs> ; I like it. I like pictures, I like reading-- images, I love that. I love telling, retelling those stories or using it as a form of communication. But I was like, I think I wanna-- I remember telling myself in our junior college, I wanted to have a gallery space. It was intentional. And I applied to all the schools that had the double major art history and art administrative ' ; cause I wanted to learn the business side and the admin part. I didn' ; t know what I was gonna do. I didn' ; t know I was gonna get the gallery, but I was like, " ; Hey, if I wanna work in a gallery, I need to have these skills or just to better understand it." ; ' ; Cause I have to justify going to school for art history, not just to my family but to myself. Savo: And so you mentioned that you wanted this applicability, you know to translate the skills that you learned in your degree to, to real life and to getting a job. Poellnitz: Yeah to a job--. Savo: Could you tell me a little broadly about your experience with that community engagement and, and political activism and how that helped formulate what is now, you know, the Hill Street Country Club because it' ; s a great gallery in Oceanside and you don' ; t really think about Oceanside being, uh, very cultural. At least you know, the North County, South Bay, in terms of San Diego County in general. But how did that come about? Poellnitz: Um, well I finished school, lived in L.A. for quite a bit. Played assistant nanny manager, like these jobs separate from what I wanted to go to school for because I was living in L.A and I had to learn how to multitask. And I took on like a lot of assistant jobs and one day I was just like, I was working for lie celebrities and like producers and stuff and you know, I saw how things were operating behind the scene creatively for money. And then I also understood the realities of like creating for me and the possibilities. And so, you know, I always kept a job and one day I decided, like me, my husband, we split [up] and me and my little kid, we moved back to North County and I still had my L.A job. So, I was still commuting like three to four times a week from Vista to L.A for my job. Cause they paid me well. But I decided to start volunteering at the Oceanside Museum of Art and their education department, but they didn' ; t have one yet. So, I ended up volunteering with the proprietors. I learned about installation at Oceanside Museum of Art and I was still, I still had my like feet in two different worlds. I was still in the L.A world, but also in my hometown world. I did work at Patricia Korea Gallery in Santa Monica, and that was a very eye-opening experience at the< ; inaudible> ; was in college. Just, she was like the only woman of color, like gallery owner. And she only represented brown artists at the time, which was very < ; inaudible> ; in Santa Monica. Well, but inequity in like the gallery world when I was in college with that job, I would apply to like the Getty and all types of museums when I lived in L.A. with my friends. But my friends would always get the job even though I had a better CV than them. You know you just accept it. And so I just went back to like doing assistant work and then I decided, I was like, you know what, like I' ; m gonna lean a little heavy. Like now that I' ; m back in Vista, I' ; m gonna lean in a little bit more in North County and invest more of my time there. And so that' ; s when I started volunteering at OMA [Oceanside Museum of Art]. Then I learned about the infrastructure of the museum world because, you know, I always wanted to work in a museum. I always thought museums were an amazing place to tell stories and educate. I never knew about the dark side of museums, you know, like how they get art and how they flip art and also like the politics of like hierarchy and institutions, you know, I learned-- I didn' ; t know about that in school. No one ever talked about that in school. We only talked about art history. But once I started volunteering and then turned into a paid position at Oceanside Museum of Art, I learned about institutions really quickly, and I also learned not just about art institutions, but I also learned about like civic engagement and city planning because, I still had my, my foot in L.A so I was used to going to galleries and museums and seeing public art, having friends who got paid as full-time artists or had very creative jobs. I know what' ; s possible. And so, you know, being back home, I just like, " ; okay, why don' ; t we have public art again." ; And then I had to like learn beyond what school taught me through experiences. Like, oh, public art is political and it' ; s not, political is a message, it' ; s political because you have to politically know how to create a system so that there can be public arts, right? At the time OMA, no one knew Oceanside Museum of Art exists. You know, 12 years ago no one knew. I didn' ; t even know. I like googled and like looked for art spaces and I somehow, and only because I was intentionally looking for art space in North County, close to home, I found it. But it wasn' ; t like it was vibrant and it was attracting people like me and they should be attracting people like me for living in LA and loving art. I didn' ; t know it exists out of Google art spaces in North County. And that' ; s how Oceanside using a popped up. And I noticed that they didn' ; t have an education department. They had Julia Fister who was volunteering for the education department that she created as a volunteer because she had a big grant with Target to make sure every fifth grader goes to the museum. But she didn' ; t have a office space or studio room for education. It was like she just came and sat at a table and made it happen and fifth graders came. And me and my business partner, Margaret Hernandez, we just decided, you know, we were both in education and we did all the docent tours with the fifth graders and the, and the workshops with them. And we just like had a lot of community conversations with young people, people in middle school, so you learned about their like starting point to art, who in the, in the classroom who visit[ed] that day, who had more access to art than others. Who had materials, who been to museum. You know, you learn so much about the demographics and like, I' ; m sorry but the demographics were pretty like astounding when you see majority of the Brown/Black kids saying this is their first time. You know. Or you have students ask you if they could take home some of the like, crayons or pastels at home so they can keep drawing. You' ; re just like, dang, kids don' ; t have like crayons? Like how do you not have crayons? You know it-- Or kids asking like, or the one kid who' ; s just like, who knows about art but like, how do artists even make money? Like kids would ask those questions all the time. How do artists even make money? Like what do art, what can artists do? You know? And those were conversations for me ' ; cause I was always intentional. I was just like artists designed your shirt, the artist probably designed like a machine that' ; s in the hospital that you are using, artists design buildings. I' ; m like, art is involved in literally your whole life. You just don' ; t know it. And you probably could have more, but you just don' ; t know it. Right? And so I just started asking questions about how do we get more murals? How do we get public art? How do we have art walk? And I learned that I had to like volunteer with like Main Street, like a commerce type of org, who had a relationship with the city to get extra funding for projects for the city. I had to learn about that dynamic. I learned about putting things on the docket. Like I learned how art was, wasn' ; t just like creative, but it was also political and it was also like [it] required you to engage in the system to understand how to create public art opportunities. You know, it' ; s just, we didn' ; t, Oceanside didn' ; t have an infrastructure for art. Like we' ; ve made a lot of improvement, but we didn' ; t have an infrastructure, we had an arts commission, but it was it was in silo and they weren' ; t funding anything and they were just meeting each other, talking about projects around town, you know? The museum wasn' ; t engaged at the time. It was, it was treated more like a private gallery space than a public space. And it was, ' ; cause you know, Oceanside Museum of Art is not owned by the city. It' ; s owned by a group of retirees, you know, and there' ; s a lot there. There' ; s also the retirement culture that you have to deal with. Like when we started Hill Street, we were very engaged with our friends and our family and community members. And we worked with people who couldn' ; t get a space or an exhibition. We worked with those artists and they brought their family and friends. Like, it was a gathering opportunity for people. It made sense. Savo: And how were you able to attract these different artists? Were these artists specifically located in Oceanside or were they spread out through across San Diego County? Poellnitz: No it started in Oceanside. It was our friends first. We grew like a concentric circle, if that makes any sense. It was, um, we fit Hill Street like artist, personal, communal, universal. And like this, if I think about how we grew as a concentric circle, it was very personal for me, Marj, to begin Hill Street Country Club because the museum was rejecting all our ideas and they were not being cool or like easily invested in education. They made it very hard for Oceanside Museum of Art to create an education department at the time. And so in support of an education department, because we, you know, we did those docents and we listened to young people. So I' ; m like, " ; you need an education department. It' ; s necessary." ; We supported Julia and her vision to make an education department for the museum. And we tried to throw our first fundraiser for that vision of hers. And the museum would say no to us. Like, we' ; re like, " ; Hey, can we do a fundraiser for the education department?" ; And they' ; re like, no. And then we' ; re asked like, " ; Can we borrow some chairs and tables for a fundraiser?" ; " ; Uh, not right now. No." ; And basically like we knew we need an education department like, Oceanside, if you' ; re gonna have Oceanside Museum of Art and you' ; re taking up the city' ; s name and you' ; re having fifth graders come in and you' ; re getting grant money, you need to have an education department, right? And that' ; s just common sense to us. And so we told all our friends the idea of having a fundraiser for the Oceanside Museum of Arts Education Department to support Julia. And one day I was like driving home to dinner to meet Margaret and I saw that the Link-Soul building light was on and they were having a gallery show. And I walked in there and I was just like, this is the art space? And Jeff, who is the co-owner of Link-Soul was just like, yeah. And I was like, this is interesting. I was just so shocked to see a gallery that had a show. And the next day I went over there and met Jeff, someone got him, and I introduced myself and I pitched our fundraiser idea. He, like, he said yes to me, to like using this space for free. And so that was our first event that we organized, and it was called " ; Open to the Public" ; and it was about, you know, the need for art education. It was a fundraiser for OMA. And so, we just asked all our friends who were artists in North County and then like people who I went to school with, ' ; cause I was taking classes at Miracosta for fun, for art and asking teachers to support it. We had a big turnout, and we were able to donate to the education department and purchase art materials and bags for every fifth grader of Oceanside for that year that visited the museum on that program. So that was like the first time where we were just like, wait, this was successful. People are thirsty. Like it' ; s not just us who want [to] have more like community opportunities, you know, with art. So like I said, it' ; s like we grew a concentric circle because we started off very, it was very personal for us to do that. And then once we had our first event, we understood the like community purpose. Like, oh this is not just us, this is a community issue too. We want, we want more opportunities to do stuff like this and we don' ; t have it. It was like, " ; I want more of this. Like how do we, how do we keep doing this?" ; And so me, Margaret, just because we couldn' ; t afford our own space and I still working back and forth in L.A, we just did pop-up art shows for like two solid years all over Oceanside. And then we went to community art events or like art events in San Diego because they had more of a presence of art for us back then, ' ; cause we weren' ; t really doing much as a city. So, we would go to events and openings in San Diego all the time. I don' ; t know, it was this became very like, personal and communal. And then most of our artists are like working class, queer, young, old, um, more vulnerable, you know, and to like, to all kinds of things. And so, like most of them never had an opportunity to have an exhibition. They like paint it for themselves or put their art in a store, but no one' ; s ever invited them to do an exhibition. And we would just invite artists for exhibition. But it was a curated experience, you know, and a lot of it was just, we choose artists that, that we shared messages with. I don' ; t know, it just became a very organic growth. Savo: This is excellent to learn about. ' ; Cause I didn' ; t know that there' ; s so much underneath, in terms of the layering, in terms of structuring, in terms of networking that' ; s involved. Could you just clarify briefly who exactly Jeff and Julia are in relation to the Hill Street Country Club? Poellnitz: So Julia Fister at the time was the education director at the Oceanside Museum of Art. And she was one of my- me and Margaret' ; s mentor. She now owns Studio Ace in Oceanside where it' ; s focused on youth and like art education, which is really cool cause she' ; s in the valley. Very much needed over there. And then Jeff, Jeff Cunningham is a artist but is the creative director for Link -Soul, which is a golf apparel company. Their design team is based in downtown San Diego. And we share, we co-op a space with them. That' ; s where we have our gallery. And Jeff Cunningham is a phenomenal artist. Like I curated him for a show for Oceanside Museum of Art. And our friendship, just like it grew from like me being a curator and an artist and him being an artist and us really like exchanging ideas about social impact and how do we create an art space that' ; s different, that' ; s more authentic and doesn' ; t have all these pressures to over-perform, be productive. And so like, it' ; s natural. It' ; s interesting ' ; cause he said yes to us having our first art show at his space and then he ended up giving us this space for Hill Street. Savo: That' ; s awesome. And since Hill Street has been open and been around in the community, how has the gallery become that space where it' ; s not just the ideas or expressions that are being presented, but how has that space become a platform really, sorry... How has that space become a platform for activism? Because, you know, you noted in a 2020 interview with KPBS that art is a functioning tool that should transition off the canvas. Poellnitz: Hmm-hmm. Savo: How has Hill Street Country Club played in that part? Poellnitz: You know, it' ; s so funny cause every time I get asked like, " ; oh are you an artist too?" ; Like," ; yeah, I' ; m an artist, I make work, but I don' ; t make it anymore." ; I was like, I make, I build art, you know, I can build stuff. But right now, my art is Hill Street Country Club, and you know, it' ; s, it goes back to college and me like learning about all like the social impact and inequities in the world through art history. It goes back to that. And it goes back to like, you know, artists are some of the most vulnerable people because first of all, you' ; re not respected with pay whatsoever, ' ; cause you have to remember like, I knew I had to get paid to do this or I shouldn' ; t be doing it. I should be like a teacher or an engineer or a therapist. Like, you went to school for art and people need to get paid for that. So we live, we live in North County where there' ; s, we were spending like 10 cents per residence on art funding while like San Diego at the time was spending ten dollars. So, and then also trying to convince older peers in the art community that they had to pay for admin stuff that we organized. And then thinking that everyone had time to volunteer because at the end of the day, we had a large retirement class that was in charge of the art community in Oceanside and Vista. You know, they didn' ; t see the value of paying younger people to help them with the arts, you know, there' ; s uh cultural differences. And that being said, you know, to get paid is not just like, to get paid is the equity issue, right? And then not only to get, you know, to get paid is the equity issue. And if you' ; re like Black and people don' ; t even take you that, if you look at the museum stats and gallery stats for like, artists and like people who make it, you already know. You' ; re like, you' ; re dealing with so many microaggressions, you' ; re dealing with some unresolved supremacy issues. Like I always tell folks like, hey, check this out. Like, um, it' ; s okay if you' ; re racist, I get it. You' ; re not me. You don' ; t have these experiences and you have to unlearn and I' ; m gonna give you grace to unlearn, but I' ; m always gonna speak up for what I-- what you did. And I' ; m gonna not call you out, but I' ; m just gonna call you in and say like, " ; hey you know what you did was kind of racist could you not do that?" ; And I learned that was always like a threat to people when I was honest and like gave them grace at the same time. And I learned in the art community that they' ; re not ready for those conversations at all. Or like, just to like unlearn and do better. So, but because I have ownership of my space and I don' ; t work for anyone and I don' ; t have a board that disagrees with my politics, I have a lot more autonomy than a lot of my artist friends or my art admins who work in museums and high-end gallery spaces. And so I get to embrace artists that are political, who are in the streets, who are organizing, who are building different collectives or opportunities for relief or whatever they believe in. I have a beautiful space. I also share my autonomy with them and I support their work. And because I believe in equity too. Cause I' ; m trying to get paid, I' ; m dealing with microaggressions. This is personal. Like what, what affects you is affecting me. And also, I' ; m like, I just don' ; t like people being in pain. I' ; m an empathetic person. I, I don' ; t know, I' ; m pretty radical politically, so I have to-- if I have my own autonomy, I' ; m gonna use it. I' ; m not gonna shy away from that. And the artists that I admire were doing that. It went that I was learning art history. They were telling a story, they was telling us how wrong this was and that was. Like, they' ; re pointing out problems and they' ; re doing it in the nuances of art. And I think it' ; s very important for artists to tell those stories so people can gather and discuss and find solutions or to just build creative- what is it critical mass? No, I think it' ; s critical mass is like valuable, once you learn it' ; s not just yourself. It' ; s like a Power in Numbers game. Savo: Would you say that speaking to it' ; s a power in numbers game, do you think that that has changed your perspective on the, the personal communal and universal experience that Hill Street Country Club offers? Because obviously since it' ; s opened, now since the pandemic 2020, do you think that it' ; s become a situation where art more than ever needs to be more expressionist or more, um, as you say, it has to be more, you know--? Poellnitz: Yeah,-Savo: It has to be more- Poellnitz: It should be. It should be. You know I was just talking to my colleague Astrid Gonzalez, she is one of the Hill Street colleagues. She does all our audio-visual stuff. And she was reflecting the other day and she was like, " ; we really never stopped working during the pandemic." ; I was like, we didn' ; t, we couldn' ; t afford to. We' ; re vulnerable. We don' ; t have board members with money. We don' ; t have-- like the reason why we can do all that we do is because we have people aligned with our principals who agree with us and who are not scared support what we' ; re doing. But at the same time, to get paid in this art world, you gotta have some like, dirty person on your board. That' ; s just reality. Like, you gotta think money. And it' ; s, that' ; s just how it works. It' ; s an institution. Like every institution in America has flaws, right? And during the pandemic, we stayed open. We were very creative of finding creative ways to stay open and accessible to our audience and to our artists. Cause a lot of my artists during the pandemic were dealing with poverty, food, needed food, like, mental health. The pandemic was messing people up in the first like two years. And a lot of my artists were affected by that. I worked with a lot of Brown and Queer and old artists, you know, and in this economy, they were suffering. And so, I had to figure out how to be a safe space and use my space for opportunities for people to get access to food or help folks get access to mental health services or even a distraction like coming, making art. I had to stay open for two and a half years during the pandemic, while a lot of big museums were closing and doing bare minimum because they didn' ; t wanna get Covid. So, I don' ; t know, my space has always evolved and adapt, because it has to. Savo: Speaking to- Poellnitz: Right now--Go ahead- Savo: Oh no, go ahead. Poellnitz: I forgot what I was going to say, go ahead. Savo: Speaking to the space having evolved, you mentioned that Hill Street became a space that allowed for those economic hardships of the pandemic, to kind of be alleviated for your artists. Could you speak about the political upheaval? Because we all lived through 2020 and we all know how painful it was during April, May, April through June of 2020. How did that come about? How was Hill Street a space for comfort, a space for expression? Poellnitz: Yeah, that was interesting. Cause like I' ; m the only like Black gallery owner in San Diego. And I' ; ve been doing this for so long that I, I belong to extended part of the San Diego art community that a lot of folks don' ; t see in North County. Like I know a lot of people in museums and galleries and stuff like that. And I know a lot of people in City government and Federal government. And so, you know, during that time it was just like, this is when you make art. This is when you talk about these issues and you use art as a language and as a tool to have these community conversations. But also, this was also opportunity for us to do mutual aid. We went into care mode, like how do we care more about people? Like how do we care back? Like how do we take care of each other? Because during that time we know who' ; s not taking care of us, we know who doesn' ; t protect us. And it was more like being available to protect and provide care. I kind of miss those days. Those were the days where we were talking about liberation and how to use resources to create safe, safer communities. We were talking about solutions for the first time out loud as a public. We were sharing empathy with each other. I thought it was a beautiful opportunity for us to build something new. But it was also beautiful to see that we could be in solidarity. I had people who knew me in the business community of Oceanside, but never went to our events. Always knew what I was doing if I went into their store or their restaurant or coffee shop or whatever. And that was the first time a lot of those folks came out and donated to us. < ; laughs> ; You know, like checked on us. And I was like, " ; Wow, this is the first-time people cared about what we are doing over here. Like, this is interesting." ; And I think there was a fear for a lot of folks like " ; I hope this isn' ; t discourage her." ; Or maybe I' ; m just thinking that in my head, I don' ; t know. But I did see a lot of people come out the woodworks who started supporting us. And it gave us funding to create more programming and we kept going. So, I don' ; t know. I was just adapting. I think that' ; s what you do when you' ; re in survival mode all the time. Savo: And since the pandemic, obviously the adapting to the circumstance and situation, have there been any local projects or exhibits that you' ; ve, partaken in or helped organize that reflect those changing structures or those change in activism? Cause you mentioned a lot about talking about solutions and you mentioned how there' ; s this real need for concern for one another, this care for one another. Has there been any of these projects that reflect that? Poellnitz: Yeah so we got really involved during the pandemic. We created like a mental health like group therapy program for young middle school kids, " ; The Social," ; and it was just like, we had a license. We have a licensed therapist, one of our artists, and it' ; s like a group therapy through art, but also peer on peer because a lot of young folks were isolated from each other during the pandemic. And they' ; re still coping with, you know the environment they had to live in, to stay away from everyone and not getting us sick to die. That' ; s kind of traumatic. And then we' ; re asking them to like, go back to normal real quick so we can jumpstart our economy. So we created a program, " ; The Social," ; with the therapist for young people. And now we' ; re gonna be part of the Oceanside Unified School District programming for summer, fall, and winter, I mean summer, fall and spring now. So we' ; re now like, we created a program that' ; s gonna be in the school system that provides mental healthcare for young people who need it the most. And then we just recently had an exhibition with < ; inaudible> ; Roca Gonzalez, who lives in Oceanside, who' ; s from Puerto Rico. And they' ; re working about all these social issues and we' ; re coming together and recognizing we are a product of gentrification and colonialism. We live through it every single day. Like we have all this architectural vernacular that reminds us that we' ; re all living through this. It' ; s not just Puerto Rico, you know, it' ; s everywhere. We' ; re all surviving. I' ; ve been able to sit on a lot of committees and boards and be part of more equitable decision making for artists that I' ; m excited about that' ; s gonna be coming out soon with the city of San Diego, helping a lot of like artists get access to money. That was like one thing that I did during the pandemic, was I did sign up on committees and boards because I' ; m just like, " ; You guys are making this process way too difficult for people who have to work full-time jobs and take care of family." ; Not everyone' ; s out here just being an artist on retirement mode and can fill out all these questions and type all these like, letters of intent. You gotta make this more equitable-like process for like poor people with very limited time, you know? So it was part of a San Diego artist project that raised like $150K for artists in San Diego. And we made the process so easy that a lot more like trans and BIPOC artists actually applied and received funding to be a artist over the pandemic. That was amazing. I mean once I decided I was committed to equity and inclusion for myself, everything I do affects everyone. As a Black woman, it just does naturally, like we' ; re-- The stats prove it. If you improve my life or if you improve my life in your surrounding, you benefit from it. Like literally, like if Dinah says she wants more vacation days, I work too much and because I, and I don' ; t normally give vacation day. Oh my God, imagine if you give it to me, you' ; re gonna have to give it to my coworker. Not everything I want, everything I need because equity benefits everyone. So I understand a lot of my personal experience or communal experiences and has universal like means that needs < ; inaudible> ; . Savo: And I was just curious, because we were speaking about these different programs and different committees that were happening during the pandemic. Before we jump back to the equity portion that I' ; m really fascinated to know more about, how were these committees and how were these programs organized? Were they all organized remotely? Were these children or these group therapy sessions that you mentioned, where were they held remotely or was there a creative space for that? Poellnitz: We did it at the gallery space every Saturday. Every Saturday. And our therapist had a baby. So, they' ; re coming, they' ; re gonna go back in the summer. They' ; re gonna start back in the summer and we' ; re gonna be at Jefferson Middle School. Last year we had a four-week social camp with them, with community artists and the therapists as a camp. And it was four weeks of campers and we had four cohorts of students and we' ; re returning to that program in the summer. And we' ; ll be returning with like regular art programming with Oceanside Unified School District on top of providing the Saturday space for the students again for group therapy. Savo: And I' ; m also curious to know like what kind of activities were these students engaged in when it came to the group therapy sessions? Because obviously this is a period where, it' ; s a lot of, where social distancing was a very key thing and masking was also very important. How are these exercises or how are these sessions organized? What were these specific activities? Poellnitz: Well, it' ; s so interesting ' ; cause we kept over going through the whole pandemic. We, Hill Street changed its whole operation system to be more appointment-based. And we created capacities. We were very highly sensitive about Covid, like people had to wear masks all the time. We provided, Dr. Bronner' ; s used to donate tons of like hand sanitizer. Like we used to give like little packets out to people who came visit the gallery space. If anyone wanted to see an exhibit, they make an appointment. They would have the space to themselves for 20 minutes to visit the exhibit. And we wouldn' ; t be in the space with them. We' ; ll be like upstairs above where, you know, the distance, like it basically were by themselves. And then with " ; The Social," ; " ; The Social" ; was like every Saturday. We had a capacity, I believe of like eight students at a time. And so, we have the space for people to spread out. And then everyone had materials. I mean, it was really easy to manage. I think when people care for each other and they care that they have a safe space, people make sure they don' ; t show up sick. People made sure to wash their hands. People made sure to keep their masks on. We did have a lot of workshops on Zoom. We had a lot of artist' ; s talks on Zoom. We had like -- what is it called? We had AR [augmented reality] gallery exhibitions. So if you couldn' ; t see the work in person, we recreate gallery space online, and people can navigate and look at art online as if it was in a gallery space. Savo: That' ; s really interesting-- Poellnitz: Yeah, we did a mobile art workshop. We got a grant right before the pandemic hit and we were supposed to have all this programming in every community center in Oceanside, but it was Covid and so we had to adapt, and ' ; cause they already gave us the money for it. So, we created a mobile art kit and like a lunch bag and it was like all the materials to like the perfect measurement and quantity that you needed for that project. We had our exhibition artists create a project and give us a list of materials for that project. And we used to do like a whole visual, like YouTube recording of how to create the piece. And then we did like a live Zoom and Instagram workshop, but anyone with a library card was getting mailed a mobile art workshop kit from us. Yeah so, we did a lot of organizing through the pandemic to stay open. It wasn' ; t just simply being open, like we had to reorganize like our operations. We created an appointment system, we created more QR codes for people instead of like, there was no reason for anyone to touch anything in this space. People were able to pull out their phones and QR code and read like the show statement. And then we had Zoom workshops and people will get their MOD kits and you know, we did a lot of cool things on Zoom. It was fun. I don' ; t know, you just learn how to care for people! Savo: What do you think was the-- < ; Poellnitz and Savo talking over each other> ; I' ; m sorry. Poellnitz: Go ahead, no you go ahead. Savo: What do you think was the reception towards all these different restructuring and different outreach? Were people positive? Poellnitz: People were positive. People were very positive. And not only just positive, but our audience grew. We were more accessible to people outside of Oceanside. Savo: Do you think that broadened the scope of Hill Street? Do you think it helped? Do you think it helps sort of bring a lot of those ideas and those concepts from the North County down to the South Bay? Poellnitz: Oh for sure. When I moved to Normal Heights a year and a half ago and people were like, " ; oh, you' ; re here now. I' ; m like, yes." ; And then just we love everything that you' ; re, like, people from the arts commission knows what we' ; re doing. Like I see a lot of gallery spaces and museums who are working with artists I worked with now. Worked with like five years ago, two years ago. I see the influence of our work on visuals. I see a lot of art spaces in San Diego, like institutions with bigger budgets, now creating visuals about their space. And I know we influenced people over the pandemic. They tell me and sometimes their programs look like it. It' ; s wild. And it' ; s like, wow. We did a lot over the pandemic while they sat still and they just watched us. Jeff always tell me, he' ; s like, " ; you can' ; t be mad if people are copying. Isn' ; t that what you want?" ; I was like, " ; Oh yeah, that' ; s how that works, huh?" ; Like, you influence people and they do the things you want them to do. Like have more like Queer folks or Black people or do more of this type of art. Like, oh they are listening, that is an impact. I didn' ; t think about it like that. And he' ; s like, " ; Yeah you just keep doing what you' ; re doing. If they wanna do what you' ; re doing in, see how far you can teach them, see how far they' ; re willing to go." ; And you know, that' ; s, that' ; s been like the best advice I' ; ve ever had doing this work. Because it' ; s true. When you have autonomy and you could do whatever you want or say whatever you want, or stand by what you believe in, you have a bigger impact than the person who' ; s quiet and not doing anything ' ; cause they' ; re scared. Savo: And speaking to that, that wanting to take initiative and be expressive. How does that coincide with some of the challenges that you were mentioning earlier about equity and inclusion? How do those two sort of intertwine with one another? Poellnitz: Dude, it' ; s because it hurts. Because a lot of like organizations, a lot of people who do fund the arts are scared. They just scared of change. People are scared of change. And so there' ; s always gonna be resistance. There' ; s always gonna be the folks with resources who can like, jump like pounce on your idea. And because they have money, they can do it sooner and faster and get more visibility. That' ; s gonna happen. It is exhausting. It wears you down, it discourages. Makes it harder for you to get access to grants or, or donors. But then at the same time, I' ; ve just been thinking about this a lot lately. Cause you know, Hill Street, we' ; re at a point where I' ; m kind of exhausted, but at the same time I know why I' ; m exhausted and I gotta do things differently and I have to be a little bit more strategic now, like where I wanna go because I notice that a lot of people are watching us. And then people have a lot of expectations for us. And there' ; s also a lot of opportunities for us in the position that we' ; re in because of the work that we' ; ve done over the last ten years, you know? And especially the work that got highlighted during the George Floyd protest era. So, like I' ; m hyper aware and I' ; m being a little bit more wise about who I partner with. I' ; m being a little bit more wise on how often I say no because I was a person that never said no before. And because I never said no, I got burnt out and not paid a lot. And I' ; m learning that me as a Black woman, my rest is very important, but it' ; s also important that I have equity so I can get paid to do this work. So, I' ; ve just been thinking about how to slow down and sometimes less is more like I don' ; t have to be over the place. I just need to be effective where I have intentions. So, it' ; s like pulling back to that personal space has been going on with us lately. Like this being more local, bringing it all in, focusing on what we' ; re strong at, getting into contract with the Oceanside Unified School District. Like that' ; s a healthy source of funding for us. Instead of chasing donors who don' ; t share our principles, I think artists and art organizers need to ask themselves like " ; Why are you here? What vision do you have? What community you belong to? What are your principles?" ; I think those are questions that anyone in the arts needs to ask themselves. Just be honest with yourself and if you could be honest with yourself, you should always know the choices that you' ; re making. For me, I realize I wanna be my own institution and there' ; s gonna be some hardship ' ; cause I won' ; t be conforming to a lot of institutional like practices. I will be creating new practices. I' ; m highly aware of the up and down of this art world for me. For me. And I' ; m honest with myself. So it' ; s easier for me to commit, but because I' ; m honest with myself, I create ways that can sustain me. Like, I do more like art consulting jobs. I collaborate more with non-art, institutional spaces, you know? I work a lot more with community members who are in the political scene. So I understand like the fluidity of art. And if you' ; re heavily relying on the same funders that fund the problem, yeah I would have concerns for the equity. But if you are creative and you know your worth and you are honest with yourself about why you' ; re here, you always can find a solution. And because that' ; s what' ; s worked for me. Savo: And speaking to equity and how Hill Street has evolved over the past ten years, what do you think are some of the things that you personally wanna see for the Hill Street Club? You mentioned that you prefer more local engagement. You prefer being with individuals that are more like-minded in terms of art expression, in terms of inclusion. What are some of the hopes that you have for Hill Street moving forward? Poellnitz: I would love to have a community school. I want a community school. I worked for a nonprofit in City Heights and we worked with community schools that worked with juvies. They call them JCCS like Juvenile and Correction Community Schools. And they' ; re like directly tied to the unified school district and the court system. At one point when I was heavily involved in politics, I was working with a former city council member in hopes of becoming like a divergent program for youth in the arts. So like, if a kid got arrested for the first time, instead of like putting them on probation and sending them to jail, you send them to like a diversion program. And the city of Carlsbad Police Department is the only police department in San Diego County that has an actual diversion program for youth. And so, you know, you get to be an organization as a choice for, for young folks and teach ' ; em all the skills, like how to create programming, how to run programming, how to make art. It' ; s like a six-month commitment. I wanna do something more like that. I wanna have a community school. I wanna teach art the way that I experience art, the way that artists experiencing art. I wanna create a new institutional space for art practice. I don' ; t know, I just really wanna grow as a bigger institution, as a choice, as an alternative choice to other places. Savo: And obviously you' ; ve given a lot of thought to the idea of this community school and obviously diversion programs as well, such as Carlsbad' ; s. Do you see potentially a branching out of Hill Street? Moving forward within not just North County, but also San Diego County as a whole? Do you see elements of what you' ; ve been able to create and to adapt with? Do you see any of that being replicated any elsewhere in the County? Poellnitz: Um, not yet, but we partner with a lot of folks in San Diego so we are very unique because we have to adapt. One thing you learn about our institutions, old ones, they can' ; t adapt. So, when they can' ; t adapt, they move slow. They struggle with adapting. And one thing about us, because we don' ; t, we don' ; t follow institutional like, uh wisdom. A lot of us are taking in diverse knowledge from each other, practicing being inclusive. And once you do that as an action, you can make decisions a lot sooner than later. And so we' ; ve been doing a lot of like partnerships and pop-ups with a lot of orgs in San Diego. I just want a community school. I want a community school. I want studio spaces for artists. I would like to have a choice for young people to learn about art and not just learn about art but have creative access to like a space where they can learn about the world and express themselves. Like I would like to have a community school. I have no aspirations to be all over San Diego County. That sounds like a lot of work. < ; laughs> ; Savo: Oh, absolutely < ; laughs> ; Poellnitz: And I worked with a lot of people in San Diego County. I love you San Diego, but North County is so special. Like us North County people, we are so innovative ' ; cause we' ; ve had so little. And when we learn something new, we master it because we don' ; t have all the museums in galleries and big budgets that San Diego has or L.A has. So we are very mom and pop and DIY in North County and we support each other. And so, I don' ; t know, that' ; s the civic identity for me. You know, that' ; s part of my civic identity. Savo: And speaking to this, sort of bring it all back in identity, the personal, the communal, the universal that Hill Street represents. Do you think that a community school would be a perfect foster for that? And I' ; m just curious about the age groups. Something I' ; m actually quite interested about, would this be open to not just middle schools, the middle school age range that Oceanside education part has worked with, but would you extend that? Would you put a limited K through 12 per example? Poellnitz: I don' ; t know. I don' ; t know. That' ; s a lot of years. < ; laughs> ; Savo: It' ; s a lot of funding. Poellnitz: It' ; s a lot of funding. I know that the folk at Link-Soul, they run the Goat Hill Golf course in Oceanside and it' ; s already been promised to us that we will build some type of like, institution space for a community school one day. So, we' ; re all dreaming like what we wanted to have. Savo: That' ; s awesome. And just before we wrap up our interview here today, was there anything that we had previously discussed or discussed throughout the interview that you wanted a little bit more emphasis on or anything that you wanted to touch base with before we end today? Poellnitz: I don' ; t think so. You' ; re fine. Savo: Awesome. Again, thank you so much for this interview. It was really informative, and I think it' ; s great to learn about how art has really grown in North County. Because I' ; m from the South Bay, so I wouldn' ; t know too much. But I think this was a great experience and I thank you a lot for that. Poellnitz: Oh, thank you, I appreciate that. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Poellnitz, Dinah. Interview April 5, 2023.
Description
An account of the resource
Oral History Interview of Dinah Poellnitz on April 5, 2023. Interview discusses Dinah Poellnitz’s community engagement within the city of Oceanside through art. In particular, the interview focuses on Poellnitz's involvement in the founding of the Hill Street Country Club art gallery in Oceanside, CA. Poellnitz discusses how to navigate through the art community as a Black woman, emphasizing the importance of equity and inclusion.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-025
Subject
The topic of the resource
Art -- Study and teaching
Art galleries -- nonprofit
Artists, Black
Community engagement
COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts
COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
Hill Street Country Club -- California -- Oceanside
Women artists
Date
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2023-04-05
Format
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audio
Creator
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Dinah Poellnitz
Contributor
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Riccardo Savo
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Los Angeles (Calif.)
Oceanside (Calif.)
Vista (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Dinah Poellnitz
Activists and activism
Art and artists
Black experience
Community history
History Department internship
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Jacob Peirce
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Lizbeth Ecke
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EckeLizbeth_PeirceJake_2022-04-13.xml
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5.4 2022-04-13 Oral history of Lizbeth Ecke, April 13, 2022 SC027-12 00:52:05 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Businesswomen Encinitas (Calif.) Floriculture Interstate 5--California Poinsettias Lizbeth Ecke Jacob Peirce mp4 EckeLizbeth_PeirceJake_2022-04-13.mp4 1:|11(14)|17(11)|23(7)|33(15)|38(54)|40(105)|50(11)|51(68)|51(180)|55(7)|69(11)|74(5)|83(28)|90(58)|90(166)|103(13)|122(2)|128(15)|133(75)|143(7)|162(15)|168(12)|173(56)|173(155)|178(91)|178(233)|186(13)|192(51)|192(185)|195(13)|207(42)|211(37)|215(5)|226(51)|229(7)|238(16)|248(71)|248(188)|248(319)|256(6)|260(15)|267(9)|269(82)|279(3)|281(69)|300(2)|305(40)|305(171)|305(309)|305(433)|316(16)|322(1) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/20bc80c8465484930147a93d0aa89119.mp4 Other video English 30 Introduction / Growing up and childhood So, good evening. My name is Jacob Pierce. I am a first year graduate student at Cal State San Marcos in the history program. And this is part of a series documenting historical figures, impactful figures in North County, San Diego. Today I'm speaking with, Lizbeth Ecke. And, thank you for being here. Let's start real general, real broad. Can you tell me a little bit about your background? Where were you were born? Growing up, just general information like that. Lizbeth Ecke recounts her childhood experience growing up in Encinitas, CA where her family were important to the development of the small town beach city. In discussing her grandparents role in advocating for Downtown Encinitas, the local history of the small San Diego city and the push back that came with it is revealed. Childhood ; College ; Community ; Downtown Encinitas ; Encinitas ; Family legacy ; Farming ; Flower industry ; Grade school ; Highway ; San Diego ; Small town Downtown Encinitas and early development ; Growing up in Encinitas ; History of Encinitas ; Lizbeth Ecke's experience as a child growing up in the Ecke family ; Local history 33.0370° N, 117.2920° W 17 The general GPS coordinates of Encinitas, CA which is now known for its beautiful beaches and luxury resorts. 385 Inspiration as a woman in business Did you, speaking of your mother and your grandmother, what inspiration, if any, did you take from em’, in your personal life going forward as a professional woman, as someone who growing up in this family, did you take any lessons from them? And, and if so, how did you kind of, feel it, that you represented the family in that way? Lizbeth Ecke describes the work of her mother and grandmother in San Diego along with their accomplishments. Her deep dive into their history explains how she was inspired by their hard work. In addition to this, Lizbeth Ecke introduces the Poinsettia business that her family is well known for. Poinsettia business ; Professional woman ; San Diego State ; Solana Beach Presbyterian Church ; Tijuana ; Volunteer work ; Women in Encinitas Familial bonds ; Family ; Gender roles ; The Ecke family ; The endeavors of the Ecke women ; The experience of women in a family business ; Women in the Ecke family 32.7774° N, 117.0714° W 17 San Diego State University. Lizbeth Ecke mentions the university a few times as this was her mother's alma mater. 612 The Press focuses on the men / Supporting organizations Pierce: Most of the press that I was able to read, mostly focuses on the men, in your family. Was that frustrating for, < ; unintelligible> ; you can go ahead and answer if you got something. Ecke: Well, I mean, I don't know that I think that it's, pretty standard for a, certainly for my grandparent’s generation and for my parent’s generation. That’s what you did, even if a, a wife or whatever was very involved in a business, you generally look to the husband for, you know, and they were the person that got all the glory and that's just the way our society has been set up. In this generation my brother probably has had more publicity than I have just because he is the one that owned the Poinsettia Business. And so that naturally, I mean, he got a lot of press just from own owning the Poinsettia Business. He's also probably much more, comfortable in front of the camera because he's been doing it for so long. So, when we are both in a situation and somebody wants one of us to speak, I will defer to him. Lizbeth Ecke addresses why the Press focused on the men in her family over the women when highlighting her family's business. The conversation then pivots to focusing on her mother and grandmother again as she explores the organizations they chose to support and why. Business roles ; Family business ; Family roles ; Functions ; Spotlight ; Support Gender disparity in the Press ; Gender roles in family business ; Planned Parenthood ; Women supporting organizations ; YMCA 32.7157° N, 117.1611° W 17 970 Let's talk about Poinsettias Pierce: I never grew up in a family that had like any sort of a business or anything like that. My parents were teachers. But were you interested in horticulture at all? Were you interested in flower, like any sort of growing flowers? Ecke: So, it was, you know, and I had done a lot of work for, I worked in the tissue culture lab at the ranch. I worked in the greenhouses many summers. I, we, all three of us grew up there was never a family vacation that we took that we didn't go visit greenhouse customers wherever it was in the world. And when I had studied overseas in Mexico and in Germany, I've gone and visited flower customers on my own. So, I was involved with it. But I also knew that wasn't gonna be the career I was going to choose. I mean, and not that anybody said I couldn't, but you know, my grandfather's name was Paul Ecke Sr. In this portion, Lizbeth Ecke discusses her involvement and knowledge of horticulture. Her knowledge stems from her family business with the poinsettia's which led to her using her planting skills during her studies in Mexico and Germany. Even though she only has a minor in horticulture, paired with her degree in business she was able to really entrench herself in the family business. Lizbeth Ecke's expertise was useful on different board of directors which was a space mostly occupied by men. Bussiness ; Farming ; Flowers ; Germany ; Greenhouses ; Horticulture ; Mexico ; Paul Ecke Jr. ; Paul Ecke Sr. ; Paule Ecke III ; Plants ; Poinsettia ; Poinsettia Ranch American Forest Exchange ; Floral culture business ; Studying overseas ; Subject of studies ; Women working in horticulture 32.7157° N, 117.1611° W 17 San Diego, CA 1229 Experience on the board of directors Pierce: You've mentioned multiple arenas where you are on the board of directors or even the chairman of the board and stuff like that. Have you < ; affirmative> ; as a woman faced any pushback, any, any friction, from people when you take these kind of leadership positions? Ecke: Well, most of the things that I've been on, I would say, well, no, I mean, when I was first, went on to the, American Forest Exchange Board, I was the first, I wasn't the very first woman that had ever been on the board, but I was the first woman to be on the board for quite some time. And I would, I will say that it was probably for the other men then that were on the board. My father had just recently passed away and he had been chairman of the board. And then I, took over, I took his seat on the board. So I think that, and I was much younger than the majority of the men on the board that isn't necessarily the case now, but it was then, which is almost 20 years ago now. I think that they initially had, they didn't have an issue with me being on the board, but I think that they were kind of surprised that I had an opinion or, that I took issue with some of the things that they, wanted to do. Lizbeth Ecke recounts her experience when she became chairman of the American Forest Exchange after her father passed away. In comparison, her experience on the board for the YMCA was vastly different since women had occupied this space long before her. Lizbeth Ecke also recounts a time when she was younger working for her family's business where a customer was demanding to work with her father instead of her. American Forest Exchange ; board ; board of directors ; Chairman ; frustrated ; status-quo ; UCSD ; women ; YMCA AFE chairman ; American Forest Exchange ; San Diego local history ; Women in business ; Women's experience in male dominated spaces 1807 Missing old Encinitas Pierce: How has it been watching it grow over the years? Do you miss old Encinitas somewhat? Do you, you wish that things were a little bit different? Do you, do you just enjoy seeing time and things progress? Like what, what is your viewpoint on that? Ecke: Well, yeah, I mean, if, if Encinitas could be the Encinitas that I grew up in, I thought that that was fabulous. If I was really living in that would, I think is, is as fabulous, you know, you get nostalgic about things. But I could, when I was growing up and I had my horse, I could ride my horse down Encinitas Blvd. all the way to the beach and ride my horse on the beach with my other friends who had horses. And, it was you-- < ; unintelligible> ; So, I mean, there's things like that, that I'm nostalgic for. But places change. I mean, you can't expect things to not change. And, for the most part, I think that the way Encinitas has changed is pretty good given, you know, the options. I mean, there wasn't, there isn't a way that Encinitas was gonna stay the way that it was, but it was a lovely place to grow up. Lizbeth Ecke recounts her experience growing up in Encinitas prior to its current development. Despite her nostalgia, Lizbeth Ecke has fond memories of Encinitas but appreciates how far along the city has come. She also gives more background on how she grew up in the city as well as her siblings and the lasting effect Encinitas had on them all. Community ; Community Resource Center ; Downtown Encinitas ; Encintas Blvd. ; Horse ; Leucadia Blvd. ; Nostalgic ; Riverside ; road ; San Digueto ; Shepards ; YMCA Community ; Developing Encinitas ; Development in Encinitas ; Growing up in Encinitas ; Old Encinitas ; Small town 33.0370° N, 117.2920° W 17 Encinitas, CA 2116 The Ecke Legacy in Encinitas / Going Forward Pierce: Absolutely, absolutely. We, we appreciate it. Not that I'm, I have a particular hand in it, but at the same time I, you know, as a, as a budding historian, I do appreciate < ; affirmative> ; people putting their things in the, in archives. Is it, I'm trying to figure out how I can word this… right. When you, when you've spoken about like how your grandfather advocated for the, the, the I-5 going where it, it goes and, and your father was, was, a, a large part of, of the, the beginnings of Cal State San Marcos, right? Is it, do you ever sit and think like, oh wow. Like my family has really impacted this, this area in, in many ways, like, you'd sit, be like, wow, like this is here in part because of the way that my family has kind of shaped the area. Do you ever think about that and how it like, is that an interesting thought to you or is that never occurred? The interviewer, Jacob Pierce asks about the Ecke family's direct influence on the I-5 and Downtown Influence. Lizbeth Ecke then answers and goes into more detail about her siblings and their history growing up in Encinitas. Cal State San Marcos ; charity ; community ; community resource center ; difference ; Downtown Encinitas ; Ecke ; Encinitas ; family ; foundation ; I-5 ; name ; park ; press ; YMCA Family influences ; Longstanding presence in the community ; Making a difference ; Sense of community ; The development of Downtown Encinitas 33.0370° N, 117.2920° W 17 Encinitas, CA 2584 Proudest achievement / Closing comments Pierce: Absolutely. Absolutely. What would you say has been, your proudest accomplishment? Whether it's in North County or just in general, what, what are you most proud of and in your career, in your life in general? Ecke: Well, I mean the most obvious answer would be my children. I mean, I've raised two children that are self-sufficient and, you know, both graduated from college. My son's getting his PhD now and, you know, they're supporting themselves and that in of itself is an accomplishment as a parent. I don't, I don't know that-- Ecke: There is a given thing that I could say that I would point to. I know I'm happy that I have been able to be part of the family business in a relevant way. It was something that was very important to my mother because she didn't always feel seen. And so she fought very hard for my sister and myself to be seen and to be heard. And I think it was, something that she was very proud of when, she had daughters that were involved and had a say in what was happening. And so I feel accomplished that I fulfilled something that was important to my mother. As the interview wraps up, Lizbeth Ecke recalls her personal accomplishments as well as her family's. Considering the Ecke influence in Encinitas and San Diego as a whole, she goes into more detail about the papers her parents and grandparents left behind. Although it consists of receipts and lists these small details are important for historical purposes. Lizbeth Ecke also goes further into the process of what the Ecke papers consist of and donating them to Cal State San Marcos. Achievements ; children ; Ecke papers ; family business ; important ; mother ; papers ; proud ; ranch Documenting history ; Family papers ; Pride in their accomplishments ; The legacy of the Ecke family 29.8833° N, 97.9414° W 17 San Marcos, CA Oral History Narrator Lizbeth Ecke is the daughter of San Diego horticulturist Paul Ecke Jr., who contributed to the popularity of the poinsettia plant. Lizbeth Ecke also is on the board for the YMCA and the American Forest Exchange. In this interview, Lizbeth discusses her childhood growing up in Encinitas, CA and working alongside her father in the flower business, and her experience as a women working in a male dominated industry in comparison to her father and brother. Peirce: My name is Jacob Peirce. I am a first year graduate student at Cal State San Marcos in the history program. And this is part of a series documenting historical figures, impactful figures in North County, San Diego. Today I' ; m speaking with, Lizbeth Ecke. And, thank you for being here. Let' ; s start real general, real broad. Can you tell me a little bit about your background? Where were you were born? Growing up, just general information like that. Ecke: I was born here in San Diego, born raised in Encinitas hold, < ; cough> ; pardon me. I grew up in the same house that my father grew up in. I went to the same elementary school and high school that my father went to. So I was friends with the children of the, some of the people that my father went to high school with. So pretty entrenched in Encinitas, California. I did move away for college and work for about 13 years, but other than that, I pretty much lived in Encinitas my entire life. Peirce: That' ; s awesome. And you said that you went to the same the same school, you lived in the same house and your family was pretty established at that point within the community. Was it difficult growing up with the kind of expectations, of being in your family like that? Ecke: There may have been individual instances, but no, not really. I mean, Encinitas was still a pretty small town when, I was growing up. I mean, Interstate 5 didn' ; t even go through till I was about 11 years old. Most people were in flower farming like our family was. And, so I mean, people probably knew my name without knowing me, but, and that probably ended up mostly being good. But, so no, I mean I would say later on there have been challenging times when we, as a family have wanted to do things and we' ; ve gotten a lot of bad press. I mean, I know that my mother and grandmother, had a harder time than I ever remember having. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: Dealing with, harder in the sense of, people being rude to them or mean, or those kinds of things. But I can' ; t say that I remember much of any of that. Peirce: Was there specific reasons for that treatment that they received? Do you remember them saying anything about that? Ecke: About, well, I know that there was a newspaper in town called The Coast Dispatch, that the man who owned it really, he didn' ; t like our family. And I mean, I' ; ve heard various stories about why he didn' ; t, the one that seems to have made the most sense to me, but I don' ; t really know whether it' ; s the real reason or not is because he owned a lot of, real estate right in Downtown Encinitas. And when they were putting through I-5, the original plan was to just run it along, down the coast highway. And, as it ended up being in some other, places farther north of here, and my grandfather was one of the people who fought pretty hard to say, let' ; s not destroy all of the downtowns of all of these, you know, Carlsbad and Solana Beach and Del Mar and Encinitas. Let' ; s put it inland a little ways and keep our downtowns. And my grandfather was on the winning side of that. I mean, it wasn' ; t because my grandfather or grandparents owned any land, particularly in the right of way of where I-5 ended up. They just, he just thought it was made more sense. So he fought for that and again, was on the winning side. And so the guy who owned The Coast Dispatch was pissed off because he was expecting to make all this money from selling all of his right of way in Downtown Encinitas. There may have been other reasons that maybe that, you know, he was a powerful man in town. My grandfather was a powerful man in town and they maybe just didn' ; t like each other, I don' ; t know. But, you know, I know that my grandmother, was treated poorly at times, by people that, you know, she was somebody who really cared about and, tried to be helpful. And, you know, people that during the depression that needed food, bringing food to the school and doing things like that, and there was any number of people that didn' ; t want her help because she was an Ecke and that was painful for her. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. I can imagine like that' ; s a wild thing to think about. Did you, speaking of your mother and your grandmother, what inspiration, if any, did you take from [th]em, in your personal life going forward as a professional woman, as someone who growing up in this family, did you take any lessons from them? And, and if so, how did you kind of, feel it, that you represented the family in that way? Ecke: Well, you know, my grandmother got married at 19 and had her first kid at 20, so she didn' ; t ever, she didn' ; t have anything more than a high school education. My mother did go to San Diego State and, did have a degree. But both of them, along with, my father, maybe a little less, my grandfather was very big < ; unintelligible> ; [into] giving back. And it was always something that my parents talked about, but they also, they didn' ; t just talk about it. They did it. And they, my grandmother was very involved with the Solana Beach Presbyterian Church and did a lot out of help through that, there was an orphanage down in Tijuana that she was, very supportive of. And I remember her when I was a child, her loading up her car and barreling on down to Tijuana to bring them whatever it was that she had in her car that week or month or whatever it was. My mother was very, was involved in lot of things. She was always on the PTA. We were all in 4H growing up and she was a 4H leader. She volunteered for children' ; s hospital. She later on when us kids weren' ; t at home or were, you know, didn' ; t need as much attention all the time she was involved with Planned Parenthood, she was a huge Planned Parenthood supporter. She, I' ; m trying to think of the other, Neurosciences Institute. I think it was called G < ; unintelligible> ; I can' ; t remember the name of it, but she was constantly involved with lots of different organizations, voices for children. She was very involved with San Diego State, which is where she went to school with the library at San Diego State. So I think that what I took away from that was that, it' ; s important to give back and everybody can give back, but if you are somebody of, means and, are known within your community, it' ; s even more important to, to give back that that' ; s a commitment, an obligation really. And, I heard about it growing up and I saw it growing up. And so that' ; s probably what I took from it more than, I mean, took from them more than anything was that they didn' ; t just talk the talk, they walked the walk. Peirce: Yeah. I was about to, I was about to ask you about the, whether that was something that was, verbally taught to you. Like, if it was like, " ; Hey, this is what we do," ; or you just kind of learn from example in regards to that, but you kind of, you kind of answered that. Ecke: Yeah. Peirce: Most of the press that I was able to read, mostly focuses on the men, in your family. Was that frustrating for, < ; unintelligible> ; you can go ahead and answer if you got something. Ecke: Well, I mean, I don' ; t know that I think that it' ; s, pretty standard for a, certainly for my grandparent' ; s generation and for my parent' ; s generation. That' ; s what you did, even if a, a wife or whatever was very involved in a business, you generally look to the husband for, you know, and they were the person that got all the glory and that' ; s just the way our society has been set up. In this generation my brother probably has had more publicity than I have just because he is the one that owned the Poinsettia Business. And so that naturally, I mean, he got a lot of press just from own owning the Poinsettia Business. He' ; s also probably much more, comfortable in front of the camera because he' ; s been doing it for so long. So, when we are both in a situation and somebody wants one of us to speak, I will defer to him.So, so that to some degree would be my fault, for not taking the spotlight when I could all the time. But yes, I mean, I think that just as a woman in society, it is sometimes frustrating, to have grown up and seen all the work that my grandmother and my mother did for the family business. And when you talk about the family business, you don' ; t really hear much about them. I mean, some of that' ; s getting righted a little bit, now, but it' ; s certainly they didn' ; t ever get any, any < ; unintelligible> ; whatever they, nobody called them out as doing great things when they were doing them. Peirce: Absolutely, absolutely. Which is, which is a shame, honestly. < ; Unintelligible> ; I guess kind of where I want to go with that though, you brought up some of the functions that your grandmother and your mother and that you have supported. Right? How do you decide what to support? Is there any-- is it really up to you? What you support? Do you speak to people in the family just to make sure that the family name is doing kind of-- is there like any collaboration or is it, whatever you decide to kind of support at that time? Ecke: No, I think that, I mean, I, I haven' ; t ever felt like if there was something that I wanted to support that anybody had any issue with it. I mean, maybe just being part of the family, there is a sense of, I suppose if I ever thought that there was something I wanted to get involved with that might create a problem, I would probably have a conversation. My brother and sister and I are pretty close and have good relationships. So, I wouldn' ; t expect that any of us would get involved with something that we thought how had an edge to it without first, at least, telling others. But you know, what I' ; ve been involved with has changed over the years when my kids were school age, I was very involved with their schools. I have, you know, I' ; m involved with, YMCA a that' ; s named after my grandmother. I was involved with it a number of years ago. And there, if you read anything about me, it' ; s probably how I got myself kicked off of the board, but, < ; laugh> ; the man that was running the, San Diego, the corporate Y for San Diego, he, didn' ; t renew his contract and now there' ; s somebody new. So then, so now I' ; m back on the board. < ; laugh> ; , I' ; m all, I mean, I also am very supportive of Planned Parenthood, not to the degree my mother was, my mother was on the board. That might be something I' ; d be willing to do down the road. So I think that, that what I' ; m involved with evolves as whatever else is happening in my life or around me. Peirce: Absolutely. And then that makes sense, right? Like, you know, you' ; re not, it' ; s not like you give, give a dollar one day and then you' ; re just, you' ; re guaranteed to give it the rest of your time. Right. It really kind of focuses as your, as your life moves from place to place < ; affirmative> ; and from stage to stage, you know, as I, you know, I' ; m a new dad, I never would' ; ve thought about all the things I do with my kid and donating and doing stuff for that kind of stuff that prior to having him right. Every stage, it kind of takes you to a different-- Ecke: Well, this isn' ; t, it isn' ; t in your field of vision. Peirce: Absolutely. And that' ; s understandable. Right. We only can see here to here. Right. We can' ; t see the full picture unless you' ; re in it sometimes. Do you mind if I pivot to, to the Poinsettias? I just have a few questions on that. Ecke: Absolutely. Peirce: I never grew up in a family that had like any sort of a business or anything like that. My parents were teachers. But were you interested in horticulture at all? Were you interested in flower, like any sort of growing flowers? Ecke: Well, yeah. I mean, the house that I grew up in it was right in the middle of the Poinsettia [fields]. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: So it was, you know, and I had done a lot of work for, I worked in the tissue culture lab at the ranch. I worked in the greenhouses many summers. I, we, all three of us grew up there was never a family vacation that we took that we didn' ; t go visit greenhouse customers where ever it was in the world. And, when I had studied overseas in Mexico and in Germany, I' ; ve gone and visited flower customers on my own. So I was involved with it. But I also knew that wasn' ; t gonna be the career I was going to choose. I mean, and not that anybody said I couldn' ; t, but, you know, my grandfather' ; s name was Paul Ecke Sr. My father was Paul Ecke Jr. and my brother' ; s Pauly III and my name isn' ; t Paul < ; laugh> ; . So, and that being said, my sister and I were had ownership interest in the ranch as much as my brother did, but we also made a determination, I don' ; t know, 30 years ago or more that, the ranch really needs to have a singular head of it, it was not a businesses that was gonna get managed very well with a, you know, three people trying to do it. So we sold our interest to my brother and that made sense. I was on the board of directors for the ranch, so I was still involved. And my brother and I, I mean, any time my brother had big decisions to make, he would talk to me. So I may have not had my name on the company, but I did feel very involved with it. And you know there' ; s a Los Angeles flower market where we would sell poinsettias every year. And I did that as did my brother and my sister and now I' ; m chairman of the board of that flower market. And so I had been involved in the flower business pretty much all my life, one way or another, I wasn' ; t the face of the Poinsettia Ranch. Peirce: But you enjoyed working with the flowers you enjoyed working with your hands? Ecke: Oh yeah, no, absolutely. You know, and now we, as a family have the flower fields in Carlsbad. So I' ; m still, involved with, well, not growing the flowers, but involved with the floral culture business, and being on the board of the American Forest Exchange. I am attuned to what' ; s going on within that part of the sector of the world and I like it and I always have. Peirce: Awesome, awesome. I can' ; t even keep plants alive in my own house, so that just having an entire farm stresses me out just the thought of it. Ecke: < ; laugh> ; Oh, well, I' ; ve never run a farm. So that, that-- Peirce: Yeah, that' ; s fair. That' ; s fair. < ; laugh> ; Ecke: I do, I did have a minor in horticulture in undergraduate school, but that was, as far as I went with that. Peirce: What was your major, if you don' ; t mind me asking? Ecke: It was business. Peirce: Business. Ecke: And then I got an MBA in real estate and finance, so-- Peirce: Absolutely. You' ; ve mentioned multiple arenas where you are on the board of directors or even the chairman of the board and stuff like that. Have you as a woman faced any pushback, any friction from people when you take these kind of leadership positions? Ecke: Well, most of the things that I' ; ve been on, I would say, well, no, I mean, when I was first, went on to the, American Forest Exchange Board, I was the first, I wasn' ; t the very first woman that had ever been on the board, but I was the first woman to be on the board for quite some time. And I would, I will say that it was probably for the other men then that were on the board. My father had just recently passed away and he had been chairman of the board. And then I, took over, I took his seat on the board. So I think that, and I was much younger than the majority of the men on the board that isn' ; t necessarily the case now, but it was then, which is almost 20 years ago now. I think that they initially had, they didn' ; t have an issue with me being on the board, but I think that they were kind of surprised that I had an opinion or, that I took issue with some of the things that they, wanted to do. Or so I wouldn' ; t see, say that I ever felt like they were trying to figure out a way to get me off the board, but I do think that there were some times when they were frustrated that I wasn' ; t just playing along with whatever they wanted to do. Other boards that I' ; m on the YMCA board there' ; s been women on that board long before I was ever on it. And, so I never felt anything there. We have a family foundation board, that my aunt has been on for as long as I can remember. And, and I' ; ve been on it for 40 years. So really no, I mean where I had a lot of pushback when I was first came back and worked for the family, I was doing a lot of leasing and tenant improvement work and construction management. And this was back in the eighties, late eighties. And there were a lot of construction guys that really were not very excited about taking orders from, you know, a short woman or probably a woman in general, but then this little, tiny person with a high squeaky voice, I can' ; t < ; unintelligible> ; anybody absolutely wouldn' ; t do what I asked them to do. It may have just taken me be more forceful than I needed to be. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: To do that. But you know, my father was to his credit. He really promoted, my sister and myself to do whatever we wanted to, to do. And, when I, I remember one time when I was probably 15 working up in Los Angeles at the flower market over Christmas, [be]cause that' ; s the only time we would' ; ve been up there with the poinsettias. And my father put me a in charge of the phone orders. And so I remember, some big customer called and asked for my father and my father said, no, I don' ; t have time, you just deal with them. And I went back and the conversation kind of went on. And then he finally said, I want to speak with a real Ecke. And so, I then went out, I mean, [be]cause again I' ; m 14 or 15 years old and I go back out and I said, dad, he says, he' ; ll only place this order with a real Ecke. And my father said, you go back in there and said, tell him if he wants to buy poinsettias he is going to buy them from you. And he' ; s gonna give the order to you. And you are just as real of an Ecke as anybody else. And so I went back in there and told the guy and he was none too happy, but he did give me the order. So my father did things like that really, he may not have believed that when he was 20 years old. But I think that my mother did a very good job of convincing him and teaching him that he should be paying attention to his daughters as much as his son. And he did credit her with that. He would be the first one to say that he had a good relationship with his daughters because my mother taught him how to do that. Peirce: That' ; s amazing. That' ; s really awesome. Especially that, that kind of support, that young, how, how, early did you become, involved in the, in the family business? Like from as long as you can remember, or--? Ecke: Oh, I, well, I mean actually working, getting a paycheck was, you know, probably fifteen dollars. But even before that, when we were little again, our house was right there, the middle of the ranch and we' ; d go out and my father would put me to work, you know, folding, putting together pieces of different pieces of paper and stapling them and folding them to go in boxes of poinsettias that were being shipped out mostly as a way to keep me busy and out of other people' ; s way. But I mean, I was probably doing that from the time I was seven or eight years old, or he would pay us, like a penny to pick up trash, to walk around the whole ranch and pick up trash and he would pay us, I dunno,, 10 cents an hour or something ridiculous to do that. But, so always my parents were big believers in working and knowing the value of money. And my mother had grown up in a fairly poor family. Her family had moved out to California when she was 15 and lived in, government subsidized housing where UCSD [University of California San Diego] is now, they' ; d moved because my grandmother, I knew that she had, she knew, wanted her children to go to college and California back then had, still does have, a good college system, but it was virtually free. And, you know, my mother had two brothers and a sister and, you know, she went to San Diego State. She had one brother that became a doctor and another brother that became a veterinarian. And they all benefited from the school systems in, in San Diego, but that' ; s why they moved. And my mother worked a lot from whenever. I mean, from the time she could remember, so she went, they lived through being homeless during the depression and other things. So my mother brought that to the table for us in the sense of understanding that you can' ; t be wasteful, you need to think about, you know, how you spend your money. And my parents were on the same page with all of that you know, just because you have money doesn' ; t mean that you need to flaunt it or that you have to spend it all just because you have it. And it, you know, there' ; s other people that might need it more than you do, and it' ; s your responsibility to help out with that. So I feel like I got, fairly grounded in the understanding of that. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. You, you' ; ve spoken a couple times about, growing up directly on, on the ranch < ; affirmative> ; and when you were a kid, I' ; m assuming that, Encinitas was a little bit more rural than it is now, not rural, but just less developed. Ecke: Yeah. Peirce: How has it been watching it grow over the years? Do you miss old Encinitas somewhat? Do you, you wish that things were a little bit different? Do you, do you just enjoy seeing time and things progress? Like what, what is your viewpoint on that? Ecke: Well, yeah, I mean, if, if Encinitas could be the Encinitas that I grew up in, I thought that that was fabulous. If I was really living in that would, I think is, is as fabulous, you know, you get nostalgic about things. But I could, when I was growing up and I had my horse, I could ride my horse down Encinitas Blvd. all the way to the beach and ride my horse on the beach with my other friends who had horses. And, it was you-- < ; unintelligible> ; So, I mean, there' ; s things like that, that I' ; m nostalgic for. But places change. I mean, you can' ; t expect things to not change. And, for the most part, I think that the way Encinitas has changed is pretty good given, you know, the options. I mean, there wasn' ; t, there isn' ; t a way that Encinitas was gonna stay the way that it was, but it was a lovely place to grow up. I mean, I, again, I knew there was like two elementary schools and, you know, one high school. And when I went, graduated from high school, there was only one high school from Del Mar to through Encinitas. So we, all went to San Dieguito together. My high school graduating class in 1975 was the last year that we were together, [be]cause then Torrey Pines was built and they opened up Torrey Pines [High School]. So, I mean it was, it was a very close-knit community. And it was, you know, nice to know you go into a grocery store, the drug store and you know, it' ; s, somebody' ; s father that' ; s there or, you know, < ; affirmative> ; and that, that was a nice thing. And I, and I do miss that, but I suppose if that was super important to me, I could go find some other very small community that I could have that. Peirce: No, absolutely. I, I mean, I grew up in, I grew up in Riverside and in the, the eighties and nineties and I still remember driving to, to school and, running into, into, shepherds herding sheep across the road. And now every single part of that is, is track housing that they built that are, you know, the cookie cutter houses and, you know, you can get nostalgic for it, but I, I can completely understand like you, you do what you do, what, what you can with what it is. People need to live. People need houses and people need to, things grow and things change, but it was just interesting to, you know, you you' ; ve been living in that, you lived in that same house as your, as your, as your father and everything. And it' ; s just like, you know, having it grow around that is, is a interesting perspective for sure. Ecke: Definitely, it definitely is. I mean, it' ; s, it' ; s weird because now I live in that, well, we' ; ve redone the house, but I live in what was my grandparents' ; house that my grandparents built when my parents got married, they built a house and moved into the house. And then my parents moved into the house that my father grew up in. So I now live in the location, not the house anymore because we did rebuild it about 15 years ago, but to where my grandparents lived and, and it was a very different place then, because when I was growing up from my grandparents' ; house, they were half a mile off of any public road in fact when I moved into this house 30 years ago, we were still Leucadia Boulevard, didn' ; t go through. And so I was a half a mile off of any paved road. And, there the view, they had a view to the west, which we still have and a view to the east and there was nothing to the east, nothing at all. I mean, there was one light that you could see out there. And I remember that when I was a kid and now that' ; s all houses. And just, you know, my father, this is totally a, a side note, but my father was also very involved with Cal[ifornia] State [University] San Marcos and getting it started and was very enthusiastic about it, which is, part of the reason that, my brother and I decided that that' ; s what the family papers should, should go. It was, it kind of made sense because we had that connection. Peirce: Absolutely, absolutely. We, we appreciate it. Not that I' ; m, I have a particular hand in it, but at the same time I, you know, as a, as a budding historian, I do appreciate < ; affirmative> ; people putting their things in the, in archives. Is it, I' ; m trying to figure out how I can word this-- right. When you, when you' ; ve spoken about like how your grandfather advocated for the, the, the I-5 going where it, it goes and, and your father was, was, a, a large part of, of the, the beginnings of Cal State San Marcos, right? Is it, do you ever sit and think like, oh wow. Like my family has really impacted this, this area in, in many ways, like, you' ; d sit, be like, wow, like this is here in part because of the way that my family has kind of shaped the area. Do you ever think about that and how it like, is that an interesting thought to you or is that never occurred? Ecke: Yeah, it, no, it is. And I mean, it' ; s something generally. I mean, I would say it' ; s a sense of pride to know that, that the, our, we didn' ; t, we as a family, didn' ; t just come here and do what we did without wanting to better our community and be involved in our community. I mean, I know that my parents and grandparents, when Encinitas was super tiny when they were here, they, there wasn' ; t anything for anybody to do after work. I mean, there just wasn' ; t anything here. So they figure out how to build a bowling alley in, in Downtown Encinitas. So people had a place to go versus I guess, just going to a bar or something. I mean that there was someplace something else to do. And, those kinds of things, I mean, there' ; s nothing that there' ; s no rules or laws or anything that says that you have to do that, but if you' ; re gonna be part of a community, it' ; s nice to know that your family helped build that community. So it, yeah, it is something that I think about, at times when, you know, there' ; s, and there' ; s enough things named after our family, there' ; s a park in Encinitas. And then there' ; s the YMCA and there' ; s various other things that, remind me and maybe the community of what we' ; ve done. I would say that it is very different now than it was even 20 years ago. I mean, 20 years ago, I could, if I said my name was Ecke, pretty much anybody in Encinitas would' ; ve heard the name, they would, I mean, they might not know anything, but they would' ; ve heard the name. And, that isn' ; t necessarily the case now, and that' ; s not a bad thing, but it is, we are a much, larger and diverse community now. So, our family doesn' ; t play the same kind of role as it used to. I mean, we still are very supportive of the community and we have a family foundation and most of the money, it' ; s not a huge found[ation], but most of the money that comes out of that does get invested in, local charities, things like the YMCA or the community resource center or things like that. So we still are very involved, but again, because the community has grown so much, we' ; re just not as big a, a part of it, which that' ; s a good thing, [be]cause there' ; s a lot more people out there that are also being supportive of things that need to be supported. Peirce: Absolutely. Given, your longstanding, presence in the community, as people have come in, have you. worked with other people who have tried to make a difference in the community? Have you tried to foster those kinds of, any sort of other, like, charitable services or anything like that? Has anyone come to you and been like, how do I start this? How do I do this and kinda look to you and have, have you mentored anyone in that regard? Ecke: No, I don' ; t think that I could say that I' ; ve done that. And I don' ; t think that I would certainly know how to tell anybody to start something. I mean, I' ; ve been involved with any number of things, like the Community Resource Center and the YMCA and grower school and any number of things. And so I' ; ve met a lot of other people within the community and I mean, the people that tend to volunteer and give money is just like almost anything in life. You' ; ve got, you know, 20% of the people doing 80% of the work or giving or whatever. I mean, it is, you see the same people over and over again. Peirce: Absolutely. What else do you, where do you see your role in the family moving forward? Where do you see your family moving forward in the community, given that you' ; ve said that it, as the community has grown, you' ; ve kind of, do you still see your family as a vital part of the community you have going forward? Ecke: No, definitely. My brother lives in Encinitas. I live in Encinitas, you know, we both raised our families in Encinitas. My sister lives in North Carolina, and we both still work in the family business. And I don' ; t see that really changing at some point in the future. Some of the kids, my kids, my brother' ; s kids, my sister' ; s kids may wanna come back and be part of the family business. At some points somebody' ; s gonna have to take over things from our, my generation of, people, but pretty much all of those in their twenties. So they' ; re still figuring out what to do with their lives. But, I mean, my father was involved with in the community and pretty much until the day he died and my mother until her Alzheimer' ; s got too bad, was involved with the community. So I never saw my parents just say, okay, I' ; m done now. And I' ; m gonna, you know, go just have fun all day every day and not be involved with my community. So, and my husband grew up in a similar type of in environment. So I don' ; t see us just, you know, retiring and doing, not being involved. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. What would you say has been, your proudest accomplishment? Whether it' ; s in North County or just in general, what, what are you most proud of and in your career, in your life in general? Ecke: Well, I mean the most obvious answer would be my children. I mean, I' ; ve raised two children that are self-sufficient and, you know, both graduated from college. My son' ; s getting his PhD now and, you know, they' ; re supporting themselves and that in of itself is an accomplishment as a parent. I don' ; t, I don' ; t know that-- There is a given thing that I could say that I would point to. I know I' ; m happy that I have been able to be part of the family business in a relevant way. It was something that was very important to my mother because she didn' ; t always feel seen. And so she fought very hard for my sister and myself to be seen and to be heard. And I think it was, something that she was very proud of when, she had daughters that were involved and had a say in what was happening. And so I feel accomplished that I fulfilled something that was important to my mother. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: But I don' ; t know that there' ; s a specific, or that I can think of a specific thing that I' ; ve fought for and won on or something. Peirce: I mean it is a difficult question unless you clambered up Everest or something, it' ; s like, well, you know, like I was just curious if there was anything specifically, you' ; re like, oh yeah. You know, like, I won the World Cup or something, but you know what I mean? Ecke: No, none of those things. Peirce: Same here, so it' ; s, yeah. I had one question I did have about the papers that you donated. Was it important for you and your family to have someplace, public for repository of that nature? Or what was, what was the reasoning behind that and why was that important to you guys? Ecke: Well, my mother was a big history buff. That probably was part of it, but-- It just, there was a hundred years of history of our family. Because you know, my grandfather, my grandparents first came down here in the early 1920s, and bought land. And Encinitas was basically a railroad station at that time. And was really one of the founding families. And there was, lots of records because we lived on the ranch, and we had all these various barns and buildings. I don' ; t think much of anything ever got thrown away because you didn' ; t have to throw it away. So there are, you know, receipt books and things from back in 1926, you know, and, I will say that my brother did a yeoman' ; s job when, after he had sold the ranch property and sold the business, he spent a year going through all of those records and consolidating and organizing, a hundred year' ; s worth of stuff. And that was a huge job. And during that time we talked about, well, okay. I mean, it didn' ; t seem right to just throw it away. I mean, but what do you do with it? I mean, that is really the question of what are the choices. So, we talked to various people there and I should remember his name, somebody who is a history professor there at Cal State San Marcos that was also on the board of the, historical society here in Encinitas. And we met with him, and I think it may have been his suggestion that we go and talk to the librarian out there. The other thing that we thought about was, San Diego State, because we had a connection there with my mother, my father went to Ohio state, so that wasn' ; t gonna make sense. I mean, but, you know, Cal State San Marco was here and in North County and we had a connection with it. And so that seemed to make the most sense because it just didn' ; t feel right to just go rent a warehouse and put it in there who was ever gonna do anything with it. And, you know, I think that there is a wealth of knowledge in history, even if it' ; s just mundane things that, you know, receipt books from back in 1926, and you can see what a bag of flower cost or whatever. I mean, you' ; re a historian. And then those are the kinds of things that people can look back on and get real information about what life was like. And you know Cal State San Marcos was the one that was really venturing into new territory because they didn' ; t have any, we were kind of the first one. We were all kinda learning together as to what this meant. I mean, we didn' ; t, I mean, we knew that families gave papers to various learning institutions. I didn' ; t ever know anybody personally who had, or, you know, what, like that really meant. So it' ; s been a cool learning experience. Peirce: Oh, absolutely. As, like the idea of you were saying, like, we didn' ; t know what to do with it. I was just like, in my head, I' ; m like, please don' ; t throw it away, even though I know you didn' ; t, like, I was just like, don' ; t do it. < ; laugh> ; Well, as we wrap up here, is there anything about you, your life, your family, that you feel like I, we haven' ; t touched on that you kind of wanna talk about today? Ecke: I don' ; t know. There probably is, but nothing that is, jumping, to mind right now. Yeah, I mean, it' ; s been a fun ride. I don' ; t think it' ; s over. I feel very privileged to have been part of, or to be part of this family. it' ; s nice to have history and grounding within a community. Again, my husband' ; s family' ; s from New Orleans and he' ; s like third generation on one side and five generations on the other side. So, he has a similar feeling and it' ; s, there is something very grounding about being a part of someplace. And I feel very privileged to be part of Encinitas, [be]cause I do feel like I have a lot of invested in it and I guess has a lot invested in me and that' ; s, that' ; s been nice. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. I don' ; t, I don' ; t think we could end know a better note than that. Lizbeth Ecke, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for giving us your perspective about your family and giving it to this project. My name is Jake Peirce and we are signing off now. Ecke: Great. Thank you. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Ecke, Lizbeth. Interview April 13, 2022
Description
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Narrator Lizbeth Ecke is the daughter of San Diego horticulturist Paul Ecke Jr., who contributed to the popularity of the poinsettia plant. Lizbeth Ecke also is on the board for the YMCA and the American Forest Exchange. In this interview, Lizbeth discusses her childhood growing up in Encinitas, CA and working alongside her father in the flower business, and her experience as a women working in a male dominated industry in comparison to her father and brother.
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SC027-12
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Businesswomen
Floriculture
Interstate 5 -- California
Poinsettias
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2022-04-13
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video
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Lizbeth Ecke
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Jacob Peirce
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Encinitas (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos
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English
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Lizbeth Ecke
Community history
History Department internship
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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Oral History
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Interviewer
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Ryan Willis
Interviewee
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Ilima Kam Martinez
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MartinezIlimaKam_WillisRyan_04-07-23.xml
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5.4 Martinez, Ilima Kam. Interview April 7, 2023 SC027-027 00:53:41 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. California State University San Marcos COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- Hawaii -- Culture Hawaii -- Social life and customs Hula (Dance) San Diego County (Calif.) Ilima Kam Martinez Ryan Willis m4a MartinezIlimaKam_WillisRyan_2023-04-07 1:|29(6)|40(14)|68(17)|104(25)|104(118)|137(6)|149(1)|190(31)|190(159)|190(294)|207(6)|223(2)|229(35)|238(41)|246(1)|263(55)|280(4)|310(42)|313(55)|319(32)|327(97)|346(16)|366(8)|368(24)|377(4)|409(5)|416(10)|419(98)|419(213)|419(310)|430(7)|450(57)|461(20)|474(17)|480(77)|521(19)|526(2)|534(71)|534(185)|545(47)|557(11)|570(23)|585(3)|593(24)|595(82)|651(8)|663(22)|672(4)|688(103)|688(215)|715(19)|732(4)|743(1) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5fd0201c55bc12a13a23cf3cc706c049.m4a Other audio 30 Chapter 1: Where were you born? Ilima explains that she was born in San Diego, California and was raised locally in both Oceanside and Carlsbad. California ; carlsbad ; oceanside ; San Diego 44 Chapter 2: Childhood and Family Ilima speaks about growing up in predominantly Caucasian communities and schools. She then talks about her family including her father, who was a retired civil engineer from Pearl Harbor, Hawaii by the time Ilima was born. Since her father was retired, Ilima spent most of her childhood being raised by her father. Childhood ; father ; pearl harbor 147 Chapter 3: Did you spend a lot of time in Hawaii growing up? Any interest living there permanently? Ilima explains that she spent many summers with her two half-sisters and dad in Hawaii. She then admits that she always thought she would eventually live in Hawaii full time, and still hopes for this in the future. family ; Hawaii ; summer 211 Chapter 4: Any influential family members or friends growing up that you really looked up to? Ilima's dad was very influential in her life, as she explains that he was always present growing up and acknowledges that he was working at Pear Harbor at the time it was attacked by Japan on December 7, 1941. bombing ; Pearl Harbor ; WWII 305 Chapter 5: Did your father ever share his experience at Pearl Harbor? Ilima explains she did not even know her father was a civil engineer at Pearl Harbor at the time the island of Oahu was bombed until his 80th birthday party. Her father would sometimes begin talking about it, but never elaborated on the experience, always staying modest and humble. Civil Engineer ; Pearl Harbor ; Tennis Instructor 449 Chapter 6: When did you first take an interest in Hawaiian culture? Since she was the youngest of her siblings and the only one not born in Hawaii, Ilima always yearned to be connected to the island and the culture. She did not fully recognize the uniqueness of her heritage until she was in middle school when she saw a hula performance,which propelled her on her journey of learning hula, serving as an anchor in her life. Hawaiian culture ; hula ; ukulele 619 Chapter 7: Teaching hula and opening her own hālau Ilima shares that she opened up her own hālau, a traditional school in Vista, CA. She then explains that hālau is viewed as a place for family in Hawaiian culture, and how hula operates like a family. hālau ; hula ; vista 719 Chapter 8: Passion for elders (kūpuna) and volunteer work Before the COVID-19 pandemic, Ilima volunteered at the Oceanside Senior Center teaching elders (kūpuna) how to dance hula. She explains why Hawaiians hold their kūpuna in very high regard. hula ; kūpuna ; Oceanside 794 Chapter 9: Can you elaborate more on the importance of hula? Ilima expands on why hula is so important in Hawaiian culture as it encompasses mental, physical, and spiritual components.She then admits that hula makes a positive impact on elders (kūpuna). body ; hula ; kūpuna ; mind ; spirit 901 Chapter 10: The challenges of Covid-19 Ilima dives into her own personal struggles with the COVID-19 pandemic and the importance of being together in Hawaiian culture. Covid-19 ; hālau ; hānai ; Hawaiian community 1043 Chapter 11: Influential hula instructors Ilima talks about one of her mentors, Kawaikapuokalani Hewett, an enormous figure in Hawaiian culture hula ; Kawaikapuokalani Hewett ; kumu ; mentor 1337 Chapter 12: Misconceptions about Hawaiians Ilima addresses misconceptions of Hawaiians, and that Hawaiians identify themselves by their lineage and ancestors and not by blood quantum. misconceptions ; stereotypes 1504 Chapter 13: When did you begin spreading and preserving traditions of Hawaiian culture? Ilima knew as a young adult that she was going to make it her mission to practice Hawaiian culture despite not being born and raised on ancestral land, and wanted to provide other Hawaiians that also did not live in Hawaii a platform to partake in Hawaiian traditions. This leads Ilima to discuss further her motivation in opening her hālau, creating an accessible and affordable place for all to learn. Ilima introduces her nonprofit organization, UMEKE, which provides access to Hawaiian culture such as hula in an authentic way for all, regardless of ethnicity or race. accessible ; hālau ; hawaiians ; hula ; UMEKE 1826 Chapter 14: When did you first establish UMEKE? Ilima founded her nonprofit in October 2021. 2021 ; nonprofit ; UMEKE 1870 Chapter 15: Was there anyone that helped you get UMEKE up and running? Ilima has a huge support system, especially elders and female role models within the Hawaiian community that have all played a significant role in the success of UMEKE. Native Hawaiian Community ; role models ; UMEKE 1922 Chapter 16: What are you most proud of to this point with UMEKE? Ilima states that she is most proud of a grant that her organization created to introduce hula (and ukulele) to a local elementary school that has a large Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander population. Accessibility ; Kids ; Native Hawaiian ; Pacific Islander 2021 Chapter 17: Filing a need in the community There has been an abundance of opportunities presented to Ilima and the UMEKE team since 2021, which Ilima believes demonstrates the need for her organization within the San Diego community, and hopes for projects to continue to float her way. goals ; UMEKE 2127 Chapter 18: Pursuing an education at CSUSM Ilima explains why her children played a vital role in her decision to attend California State University San Marcos, and why she decided to pursue a bachelor's degree in indigenous anthropology. She recounts her time and experience in school as a " ; non-traditional student" ; and the challenges she faced, along with gaining a new perspective. CSUSM ; indigenous anthropology ; Kumeyaay ; Luiseño ; Non-traditional student 2512 Chapter 19: Southern California, Asian, and Pacific Islander Festival Ilima talks about the upcoming Southern California, Asian, and Pacific Islander festival where she is the co-creator. Ilima elaborates on her multi-ethnic background and wanting the community to know that this event is for everyone and to learn about API (Asian & ; Pacific Islander) culture. Asian ; Festival ; Pacific Islander ; Southern California 2871 Chapter 20: How many cultures represented? How did you go about contacting these different groups? Ilima estimates over twenty different cultures represented at the API festival. Thanks to her close relations within the Pacific Islander and dance community, it was easy for Ilima to get other groups to attend and participate. African American Community ; arts ; Pacific Islander Community ; San Diego 3038 Chapter 21: Getting involved and growing the community Ilima stresses that anyone from any background or ethnicity would be a welcome ally in promoting Hawaiian and indigenous culture within the community. ally ; allyship ; community 3098 Chapter 22: What are you most proud of and what has brought you the most joy in life? Ilima's children are what she is most proud of in her life, as she has been able to instill and teach her children about Hawaiian culture and they will be able to pass those traditions on to future generations. Children ; future generations ; Hawaiian traditions ; knowledge sound Ilima Kam Martinez is a California State University San Marcos alum and the founder and President of UMEKE, an organization that promotes and preserves Hawaiian culture through hula dancing. In this interview, Ilima discusses her upbringing, the influence and relationship with her father, the importance of hula in Hawaiian cultures, the challenges she faced during the Covid-19 pandemic, her passion for elders, her mentors, going back to school to earn her degree, and her goals for UMEKE moving forward. Ryan Willis: Alright. Hello, this is Ryan Willis, and today I am interviewing Ilima Kam Martinez for the California State University San Marcos Library Special Collections oral history project. Today is April 7, 2023, and the time is 1:47 PM, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Ilima, thank you so much for interviewing with me today. Ilima Kam Martinez: Thank you for the invitation. Willis: Of course. So, let' ; s go ahead and start off, um, from the beginning. Where were you born? Martinez: I was born here in San Diego, California, and raised here in both Oceanside and Carlsbad area. Willis: Perfect. And if you don' ; t mind, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood? Uh, what was it like growing up for you? Martinez: It' ; s just-it' ; s always an interesting question because I think I will answer that much differently than I would' ; ve say, you know, uh, 25 years ago. Um, I-- attended schools in Carlsbad, which is a predominantly, you know, affluent Caucasian community. And coming from a really diverse background, um, I, uh-- let me think. Willis: Yeah, yeah. Take your time < ; Martinez laughs> ; . Not a problem. Martinez: Um, that really set me on the path that I find myself on today. I grew up with both parents in my life. Two sisters, two older sisters. I' ; m the youngest. Um, my father was a retired civil engineer from Pearl Harbor. So he had me, you know, by the time I was born, he was already at an age where he was retired. So, I spent most of my time with him and being raised by him. Willis: Okay. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: That' ; s really interesting. So, you said your father worked in-at Pearl Harbor? Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So did you spend a lot of time in Hawaii growing up? Martinez: I did. So, I also have two half-sisters, that remained in Hawaii, from my father' ; s first marriage. And, when I say half-sisters, that' ; s just, more literal than anything there. So I spent a lot of time, with my dad and my sisters during the summer times growing up. So we often would visit-- Willis: Gotcha. Martinez: Hawaii. Willis: Did you ever have any interest in living there full-time? Or was it just more of like, oh, we' ; ll just, you know, visit here and there? Martinez: I always thought I would. I always thought that I would, eventually wind up there. Um, and I' ; m not totally disregarding the possibility of that happening in the future. But yes, I do hope to find myself back there one day. Willis: That' ; s awesome. Yeah. I' ; ve always wanted to visit, but never have to this point. Um, were there any influential family members or friends growing up that you really looked up to? Martinez: I would have to say my dad. Willis: Your dad. Martinez: Yeah. My dad was, he was so, he came from a, a generation right, where it was very, um, old school. You know, he was working at Pearl Harbor at the time that it was bombed. And so he, he, although he wasn' ; t-- he came from a generation, that was not especially affectionate or maybe verbalized, you know, their, their love for their families and friends, but always showed it, you know, in by example. Always being present with me, always, you know, taking me to, you know, activities. And, so although he might not have been, you know, that ty-not typical, but extremely affectionate or, you know, verbalizing love that he was very instrumental in what I would consider to be a really happy childhood. Willis: Right. Yeah. That' ; s awesome. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So you said that he was actually at Pearl Harbor, though when the bombing took place? Martinez: He was mm-hmm. Willis: Wow. So what kind of stories did he have < ; Martinez laughs> ; regarding that? Or was that something that he kind of just didn' ; t like to talk about? Martinez: He, it' ; s funny because I actually didn' ; t even know he was a civil engineer at Pearl Harbor until his 80th birthday party. Which took place in Hawaii. In his retirement he was actually a tennis instructor for the Carlsbad Parks and Recreation for twenty years. That' ; s what I always thought that he was. < ; laughs> ; To me, that' ; s what my dad did for a living. Willis: Right. Martinez: Oh, he' ; s a tennis instructor! < ; laughs> ; . And when somebody, you know, was giving a speech at his birthday party instead he was a civil engineer, you know, I' ; m already a young adult at that point, right? At Pearl Harbor. I was, I had no idea. But that was typical of my dad. He was very, very humble. Um, very modest. And so, it probably shouldn' ; t have surprised me, but yeah. He didn' ; t talk about much about his experience, at Pearl Harbor at the time. Later on, you know, when he, so he had suffered a major stroke in his eighties and, had moved in, with my family and I, and so I was his sole caregiver during about a span, about, of about 10 years. And things would, he would start to talk about it but never really elaborate. And, and I just always, you know, knew better than to, to pry that he would tell me what I was meant to know. Willis: Right. Martinez: What he felt that I should know. Willis: Yeah. If you didn' ; t find out about it until you were, you know, a young adult. So that kind of-- < ; laughs> ; Martinez: Right. Willis: Explains it right there. Like yeah, you probably didn' ; t want to go there. Martinez: Exactly. And, and my dad was such a, he was such, a planner, right? Like, he was always very organized, always had things in place. So he actually had written his own obituary several years before he even had his stroke. And so it was actually through his obituary that he wrote that I learned a lot about him. Willis: I see. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: That' ; s fascinating. Martinez: Mm-hmm. < ; laughs> ; Willis: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So kind of along the lines of Hawaiian culture, when did you first take an interest in it? And was there a point in your life where you kind of knew that that was something that you really wanted to focus on in your life, or even with a career? Martinez: I, I think that so being the youngest of my siblings, I was the only one who was born here in San Diego. All my siblings, all my sisters were born in Hawaii, raised in Hawaii. And so I feel like there was always that yearning, you know, to be connected to Hawaii. And, um, it' ; s really interesting because what I didn' ; t know at the time in my upbringing, you know, with my dad, what I didn' ; t realize was very special and unique to Hawaiian culture? I didn' ; t even realize that' ; s what it was until, until later on. Right? Just, you know, maybe the foods we ate, the music my, my dad would play, he was a " ; slap < ; unclear> ; guitarist." ; He played ukulele. Um, but, it, to me, it was just my home. Right? So I think that it was pretty, I think I wanna say sometime around maybe middle school that I had seen a hula performance. And I remember it having such an impact on me at that moment that I was like, ahh! I don' ; t know, there was just this instant connection, although I had seen, you know, hula before, but it was just this one particular moment. And so, that was when I had asked my dad, I would like to take hula classes, but again, I mean, I' ; m in Carlsbad, right? And like where, where do you even find something like that? And, and, um. But we, we did. And so he, enrolled me in classes at that time. And it' ; s been a lifelong journey of learning ever since. And just something that I' ; ve always felt, so it, it' ; s been the constant in my life right? Where I could go, always rely on hula to, to, um-- it was just a, an anchor, you know? Right. No matter what else is going on in my life, hula was always and still is that anchor for me, that makes me feel safe. Willis: Right. Martinez: Yeah. Willis: That' ; s so cool. Yeah. I was gonna ask you, because I know that we, had talked in our pre-interview specifically about hula and how important that is to Hawaiian culture. I understand that you actually teach it as well. Martinez: I do < ; laughs> ; , I do. I have a hālau in, which is a traditional hula school in Vista. I just opened up the hālau oh gosh. We just celebrated our fourth anniversary. Um, and it' ; s been, it' ; s been wonderful. Um, I think for those that have not had experience in hālau it' ; s, it can be challenging to understand, but hālau equates for a lot of people family, right? Like in its essence, yes, it' ; s a school of hula, but really it' ; s in, its, in its foundational form it' ; s about family and it works and operates very much like a family. So sometimes I wonder if it was really that I wanted to open the hālau for < ; laughs> ; , you know, teaching hula or if it was for the purpose of being able to provide a home and a family for, for students. Willis: Right. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: That' ; s awesome. You also mentioned that you have a passion for elders, and I know that you were teaching them as well pre-Covid. Is that correct? Martinez: Pre-Covid I was volunteering at the Oceanside Senior Center. And I think it also again goes back to my dad. I think a lot of things < ; laughs> ; will go back to my dad. He was, I mean he was fifty-eight years old when I was born, and I think about that and it just kind of blows my mind. And as being his caregiver, kūpuna or elders in Hawaiian culture are so, I think that' ; s one of the many unique things about Hawaiian culture is that we, help, hold our kūpuna in such high regard because we know that their experience, we know that their, the lives that they have lived and their experience far surpasses ours. So we always know to go to them and respect, you know, the knowledge that they, that they bear. So yeah-- Willis: And I think you also mentioned that part of the reason why you' ; ve really enjoyed teaching the hula to seniors or elders is because it exercises their mind not just their body, right? Like you' ; re just kind of focusing on the whole package there. Can you maybe elaborate a little bit more on that? Martinez: Yeah. I mean, hula at its core is encompassing of, mental, physical, and spiritual, which you know, I' ; ve learned that not everybody realizes or may know that. And so, when you' ; re, when I' ; m teaching with kūpuna, having those three facets ; that physical, mental and emotional part I have seen has been such, has had such a huge impact on them. You know, just the simple act of coming together, of sharing meals together, which we do a lot, < ; laughs> ; The cognition that goes into learning choreography, I have seen such an a really impressive trajectory, upward trajectory in how much now that my kūpuna class can retain as opposed to when they may have first started dancing. Right. I think that, watching that, like being a witness to this, this, how it can, how hula can positively impact them, is just, such a huge motivator to just keep going, to just to keep doing that and okay now what else can we do? Willis: Yeah. Seems like that would be very rewarding. Martinez: Mm-hmm. It' ; s Extremely rewarding. Willis: So you were teaching, classes for free to seniors right before Covid- Martinez: Before Covid. Willis: And then once Covid hit. So what was that whole experience like for you once Covid hit and you weren' ; t able to teach people in person. I bet that was really difficult for you. Martinez: < ; laughs> ; . It was, it was. It provided its challenges. I think a lot of us shared the same challenges. Trying to communicate and, keep a community online was just really challenging. However, I feel like during the time of the pandemic folks were looking to have that sense of community that when you would' ; ve thought that we would have flailed, as a hālau, it actually just thrived, because of that need that, just that human need to want to come together and have a community. So when it was time, when we reached that time where we could come together outdoors, I mean, we, we did it immediately. As soon as we were told that we could conduct classes outdoors it was immediately and students came out and didn' ; t hesitate. I would say probably the most challenging thing was what is inherently cult- culturally inherent to us is the act of like, exchanging hānai or, you know kiss, kisses or hugs. And culturally, that' ; s what we do when we greet each other, when we say farewell to each other, is to always hānai each other. And that was probably one of the largest challenges because we couldn' ; t even, like, < ; Willis laughs> ; we couldn' ; t touch- Willis: Right. Martinez: We couldn' ; t- Willis: Six feet. Martinez: Yeah. That six feet. And it went against everything that we, that was so ingrained in us that that, that was pretty tough. Willis: That was such an awkward moment in time. Like, nobody really knew how to interact with each other. I want to give you a hug, but I guess let' ; s give you an air hug for now. Martinez: Yeah, yeah. Willis: But I can see how that could be very difficult, especially with your culture, just wanting to be right there with the person and be able to, you know, exchange those pleasantries. So-- Martinez: Yeah. Willis: Yeah. Going back to when you first started learning hula, do you specifically remember an instructor or somebody that taught you or that really had an influence on that? Martinez: I couldn' ; t single one out to be honest, because with each kumu or teacher that I have had has had such a huge influence on the kumu that I am today. I, I couldn' ; t credit just, just one. They all affected me in different ways, but equally impactful ways. I' ; ll note that, so I was, < ; unclear> ; is the formal graduation ceremony that a kuma hula goes through in order to, it' ; s like it' ; s a method of training, right? To become a kuma hula. And so the kuma that I was very honored and so blessed to be able to graduate under, he' ; s, his name is Kawaikapuokalani Hewett. And he is so prolific and knowledgeable in, in all aspects of Hawaiian culture that, and just to have that source, to be able to always go back to for the rest of, you know, my life like, that' ; s just, it' ; s just really, I feel so, so blessed that I have him, in my life. And, and the Hawaiian community is blessed to have him because he' ; s so gracious and generous with his, with his ' ; ike or his knowledge, where I think that as an indigenous culture, we often can gatekeep you know, rightfully so. But we can often gatekeep some knowledge because of how it has been, exploited right? In the past. Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: And the fact that, that Kumu Kawaikapuokalani is, is, has such a kind heart and willing to be able to, share knowledge is, is really, really priceless because it has benefited so many of his students. Willis: Right, right. Do you remember when you met him exactly? Was it when you were first learning hula or? Martinez: Oh my goodness. Well he is a, he, I can' ; t remember exactly because he' ; s very well known in Hawaii. He is a famous composer or songwriter and poet. And so my father being a musician, I remember seeing Kawaikapuo CDs in my home, you know at the time. So I, it' ; s actually kind of interesting cause I feel like it was almost a, uh, predetermined that this relationship was going to circle around. Right. And ironically, he, and I can' ; t obviously say the name, but he resides on the same street in Hawaii that my sister resided in at the time. So when I would visit my sister < ; laughs> ; in Hawaii, it was the same street that my now kumu still lives on. So, it, it' ; s just-- Willis: Oh wow. How convenient is that? Martinez: It' ; s just, yeah, < ; laughs> ; . I' ; m going to say coincident, there' ; s no such thing as coincidences. Willis: Right. No, I agree. < ; Martinez laughs> ; . Aside from hula, are there any other specific Hawaiian traditions that you really feel passionate about? Martinez: Oh my goodness. Um, I feel that hula does encompass all of those traditions. Right? And I think that' ; s why it is so predominant in Hawaiian culture because it encompasses every aspect of Hawaiian culture. Protocols are implemented in hula that are implemented in-- that really dictate, the belief systems of Hawaiian people. So, I wouldn' ; t, I, yeah. I don' ; t think, yeah. < ; laughs> ; Willis: No, that' ; s perfect. Do you think there' ; s any like, big misconceptions about Hawaiians or Hawaiian culture in general? I mean, like stereotypes < ; Martinez laughs> ; from your experiences? Martinez: Yeah. < ; more laughter> ; . Yeah. There' ; s, I wouldn' ; t even know where to begin < ; laughs> ; . Willis: < ; laughs> ; I know it' ; s kind of a loaded question. Martinez: Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. But if I had to Like if I had to choose, you know, one or two of the most common stereotypes or misconceptions, gosh, I would, I-- Hmm, Hmm. Well, I' ; ll address one thing only because it' ; s fresh in my mind. And I was posed this question recently was I often get asked, " ; Oh, how much Hawaiian are you? And it' ; s interesting when folks ask this question because it' ; s almost like they' ; re putting a measure to it. Yeah? And I think what folks don' ; t understand is that as a Hawaiian people, we identify our Hawaiian-ness is by our lineage and our ancestors. Right? It' ; s not about a blood quantum. And I, I think I' ; ll just leave it at that < ; laughs> ; . Willis: That' ; s perfect. I appreciate that. Didn' ; t mean to put you on the spot. Martinez: No, no, it' ; s a great question. It was just hard to decide what it would be the, what is most often misunderstood. Because there' ; s plenty. There' ; s plenty. Willis: Yeah. Understood. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So this next question' ; s gonna kind of lead into your organization that I want to talk to you about- Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: But around when and how did you begin your journey in assisting with spreading and preserving traditions of Hawaii? Martinez: I' ; m sorry, can you ask--? Willis: Yeah, of course. So I was just wondering around when was it, when you were maybe a teenager, young adult, when you decided, okay, I' ; m gonna really start to assist with spreading and preserving the traditions of Hawaiian culture? Martinez: Hmm. Oh gosh. I think I can' ; t recall when I know I was younger, but I can' ; t recall the exact time. But as an adult, I always knew. Like as a young adult, I knew that that would be my mission, for a couple reasons. One, it was the accessibility of, learning Hawaiian culture being a Hawaiian who lives in diaspora, right? Who doesn' ; t, who isn' ; t living in their ancestral land. So, just, you know, personally from my own personal experience not having that access and really having to actively search for it, I knew that I wanted to be able to provide that for other native Hawaiians that are not, no longer residing in Hawaii. Another reason is that just like anything else, any sort of extracurricular activity, sometimes classes are not affordable to, Native Hawaiian population. Right? They can be, that can be a barrier, a financial barrier. And that' ; s always kind of been, to me an interesting, dilemma as a kumu hula, and as someone who has a hālau, I always wanna make sure our classes are accessible to everyone who wants to learn. However, at the end of the day, I still have a lease to pay. Right? An electric bill. And, and so how can I do that in such a way that it can benefit students. How can I teach, culture in a way that can benefit students, that can still benefit financially for my family, right? Because I dedicate a lot of my time to this. And then the third component is, how can it benefit the community as a whole? And I think that' ; s where UMEKE, our organization comes in, right? Establishing that nonprofit organization where we can be able to provide access to culture for everyone. Because I believe anyone and everyone who would like to learn Native Hawaiian or not, should be able to. Should be able to do that and do it in a, an a appropriate and an authentic way you know, because we don' ; t live-- Because of our locale, there are often folks who may be teaching a version of hula or, but perhaps they don' ; t have the education to be teaching Hawaiian culture in, you know in an authentic way. And that' ; s not to say that it' ; s, you know I' ; m sure the intention, the intentions are good and, and whatnot, but they' ; re-- In San Diego in particular, the native Hawaiian community is very passionate about being, taking on that kuleana or that responsibility of educating about Hawaiian culture in a way that it' ; s, that it' ; s coming from the native Hawaiian community. Yeah. I know that, personally, and this is just me personally, is that because Hawaiian culture has been commercialized for so long, I actively work towards deconstructing those, those, those stereotypes that surround Hawaiian culture that mostly came about once Hawaii became a, a very popular travel destination. Right? Um, so-- Willis: Gotcha. So speaking a little bit more on, UMEKE when did you first, establish your organization? Martinez: We filed in 2021, October of 2021. And we were stagnant for a little bit as we were kind of building our capacity, and I' ; ve just recently become more active and had some really great opportunities to be able to-- Willis: And you are the founder, you are the president. It' ; s really, you know, your idea. Right? You were the one that was like, let' ; s do this, let' ; s push forward. Martinez: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Willis: Was there anyone else that hopped on board with you that kind of helped you get it going? Or was it pretty much your project and your project only? Martinez: Oh my gosh. I had a huge support system, even from people that don' ; t even realize they were part of it. They were part of it. < ; laughs> ; And again, it goes back to, my, the elders within the Hawaiian community, specifically in San Diego. Those aunties, you know, I have some really amazing female role models in the Native Hawaiian community, in the kūpuna. And when I see the work that they have done and dedicated their lives to, I realize that this next generation, that I now have that responsibility to keep on that pathway that they' ; ve, that they' ; ve blazed already. Right? Mm-hmm. Willis: Right. So obviously it' ; s still a relatively new organization, but what are you most proud of, so far, and what are you kind of hoping to accomplish moving forward? Martinez: Oh, gosh. I' ; m at this moment most proud of a grant we were recently working on within collaboration with a local school district to be able to bring hula to -- and ukulele -- to an elementary school that has a significant Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander [NHPI] population. And providing that accessibility component, where, you know students might not otherwise be able to afford it financially or may not just even have the transportation for that, right? Because it happens during school. It, the accessibility just makes, made it so easy. So I would say that because I reflect on what I would' ; ve really loved at that age and been exposed to, and being able to take ownership of that [NHPI] identity in a place other than my home, among my friends, I think that would' ; ve been really impactful for me as a young person. And so-- Willis: Definitely. Yeah. And kids remember assemblies like that as well. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: I can still tell you some of the ones that I attended in elementary school and like the impact they had on me so that' ; s a really cool thing. And then, as far as like, looking forward to future, do you have any goals in mind or is it really just continue to do what you' ; re doing and hope more people hop on? Martinez: < ; laughs> ; Yeah, I mean, as far as goals it' ; s so interesting because when this group of us set out to start UMEKE, there were really folks that just wholeheartedly believed in me and my vision. And when we set out to do this, I think just like anything when you start something you' ; re like, " ; Ohh!," ; you know. < ; laughs> ; We weren' ; t sure how successful we would be, but it' ; s so interesting because opportunities have really been presenting themselves without us seeking them out, which to me, speaks to the mission of UMEKE that it was something that was really needed in our community because projects are really kind of floating our way, and it aligns with what we would love to do. So although we didn' ; t know exactly maybe specifically what a project was going to look like, folks are coming to us with their projects. And so it' ; s, that' ; s really exciting because it' ; s like, oh, there was a need! We, okay, great. You know- < ; laughs> ; Willis: < ; laughs> ; It' ; s all for a reason. Martinez: It, yes. Yeah. Willis: That' ; s really cool. Shifting gears a little bit, I understand you are a Cal State San Marco alum? Martinez: I am. Willis: So you earned your bachelor' ; s degree in Indigenous Anthropology, is that correct? Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: In 2019? Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So what was that, what made you decide to ultimately go for a bachelor' ; s degree? What kind of pushed you in that direction? Martinez: That' ; s a funny story. So I have four children, and my eldest was in high school at the time and, you know neither of my parents went to college. And between my siblings and I, we didn' ; t have a four-year degree. Right. So I was very, very, very < ; laughs> ; , persistent that my children go to a four-year college, and I realized that I couldn' ; t preach < ; laughs> ; higher education to them. Unless I went ahead and did it myself and so I did < ; laughter> ; . Yeah. Willis: That' ; s very admirable. It' ; s, it' ; s not easy, especially when you' ; re a parent. I can attest to that. It is not easy to continue on with school. I mean, you just have so many other things going on. Just to be able to put aside some time for that is a challenge within itself. Was it a difficult decision? I mean, I guess that' ; s the obvious to, to go back to school or, but once you got in, was it, was it easy for you? Did it come naturally, or what was that kind of whole process like when you first started attending classes? Martinez: It was interesting going back as an, as a non-traditional student and, you know, at my age with children, I knew I was going to go into it slow and steady. I wasn' ; t in a rush. And so I had just started with maybe two classes per semester. And, and I actually thought of it as a blessing because I got to study exactly what I wanted to. I knew that cultural anthropology was going to be something that would maintain my interest and my goals. And so, when I had learned that Cal State [San Marcos] specifically had an indigenous anthropology degree, it, it, it just all made sense. So it wasn' ; t, it was challenging maybe logistically, having, juggling, family, but learning and the like-minded folks that I got to meet, especially this younger generation! They' ; re amazing, you know, < ; laughter> ; and getting invigorated by this young energy. For me it was a, it was a great experience, and you know, when you tell somebody that you' ; re going to school for indigenous anthropology, you always get that question, what are you gonna do with that? Well, guess what? I use it every single day! < ; laughs> ; , Willis: Right. Not everybody can say that, so that' ; s impressive. Yeah. Uh, so did you come away with a new perspective after graduating? Martinez: Um, hmm. I think the perspective that I got was, probably one of the most important perspectives is that outside perspective, right? Because we' ; re sometimes always just living in our bubble and really only see what' ; s happening in our immediate surroundings. And so, I would say it changed my perspective in that, in the sense that, one, learning about other cultures, and when we learn about other cultures, it really helps us to understand more of our own, and being with such a diverse, because Cal State [San Marcos] does have a really diverse student body, right? So different ages and ethnicities. And so I think that, those, all of those things combined are, are what changed my perspective, not the actual piece of paper < ; laughs> ; . Willis: Yeah, no. I totally understand. Um, as far as the other cultures that you learned about, was there one in particular other than Hawaiian that really caught your attention? Martinez: Oh my goodness. I wouldn' ; t say specifically one. I think that just studying other indigenous cultures, particularly, you know, the ones within our area, like the Kumeyaay and the Luiseño, I just loved learning about how more similar Hawaiian culture is, with the [San Diego-are] native communities than not, and so I would say it that was just, and, and that was with everything. That' ; s with belief systems, that' ; s with, our, our medical systems, how we view health. Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: How we view, our, structures of our families, our structure of our communities. So, now I' ; m not sure that I < ; laughs> ; answered your question. Willis: Yeah, that' ; s perfect. Um, so I did want to touch base on an event that, um, you obviously had a huge hand in, earlier this year in February, you were able to establish the first ever southern California, Asian, and Pacific Islander Festival. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: Which, um, took place actually here in Oceanside. Uh, first off, what was kind of the vision of this, event and how long did it take for this idea to become a reality? Martinez: Um, I can say I can' ; t take credit for coming up with the idea. As, but as now, like currently being a co-creator of, of the event for me personally, I come from a multiculturally- multicultural background, so, um, as a lot of us are right? So yes, I' ; m Native Hawaiian. Um, in addition to that, I' ; m also Japanese and Chinese and Mexican. And, coming from such a, a multi-ethnic background growing up in North [San Diego] County, I think that, my drive behind this event is one, bringing that diversity to North County that it hasn' ; t seen a lot of in the past that, and maybe on this, on this level, right? Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: The API [Asian & ; Pacific Islander] community being highlighted to this extent in this area, we' ; re quite underrepresented. And I knew that going into this festival that our number one focus was always going to be on the educational aspect of it, and getting, you know, circling back to that, like when we understand other cultures, that we really begin to understand ourselves more, and we wanted to focus on this educational part because sometimes festivals can get quite, um, what' ; s the word? Insular. Yeah. And we want to make it, we want folks to know that this festival' ; s for everyone. You know, no matter what the background, no matter what the age, no matter what the locale that is for everybody to be able to come together and learn about API culture. Willis: Right. Gotcha. Martinez: So-- Willis: Uh, so can you share your experience of how the event actually unfolded? Was it what you were hoping for? Was it a nice turnout? Martinez: Well, it' ; s actually in three weeks. Willis: Oh, my mistake. < ; laughs> ; Martinez: < ; laughs> ; . So we' ; re in the thick of it. Willis: Gotcha. Okay. I must have, misread that. My apologies. < ; laughs> ; My understanding is that it already happened earlier this year. Martinez: No worries. Willis: Okay. So it' ; s happening in three weeks from now! Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: Okay. That' ; s awesome. So I guess, um, what are you expecting? Are you expecting it to be a pretty big turnout? Martinez: Well, that' ; s what we' ; re hoping for! < ; laughs> ; Willis: Of course. Martinez: Um, but as far as how it' ; s unfolded, you know, it did just like anything, it' ; s evolved. The, the, the vision has evolved a little bit. In, in, the, the, yeah, the vision and the mission have all evolved quite a bit, but as far as like what people can expect, because we wanted it to be, you know, educational, there you will find the typical things that you would find in a festival, yeah, is performances and vendors and food and things like that. But I think probably my most favorite part that has sort of evolved since the initial planning is this contemporary aspect of what API culture looks like. So, I mean, you can use K-Pop [Korean pop music] as a great example, right? Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: Like, and the phenomenon around K-pop and, where that came from. So initially we were focusing mostly on traditional practices and performances, but then we realized how many amazing API artists are out there and are deserving of recognition, but may not necessarily be practicing what would be considered a traditional art. So that' ; s, I think I' ; m really excited to see what some of these performers are bringing, these API artists and performers are bringing to the festival. I think that' ; s gonna be a really fun aspect of it. That was, for me, it was, it was an unexpected but pleasant surprise addition to the festival. Willis: Right. Absolutely. Uh, do you know about how many different ethnicities, cultures are gonna be represented at this event? Martinez: We have about, um, over 20. Willis: Wow. Martinez: Yeah. We have about over 20. Willis: That' ; s impressive. And a lot of them have just, have they been coming to you about it, or do you reach out to them? How does that usually work? Martinez: You know I, I' ; m really fortunate to have been embedded in the Pacific Islander community in San Diego since I, you know, the dance community is very close-knit. So I' ; m really fortunate to be able to reach out to other directors of performance groups that I am, I have relationships with. And they were the first ones to jump on and say, yes, we would love to support you. Um, so that was really how the momentum, started. Right? Because, you know, you start with one performance group and then another performance group. Oh! And then so-and-so' ; s performing, and then another one. And so I wasn' ; t as, connected within, the AA [African American] community though, and that has been an amazing experience is meeting other directors in their respective arts, like, < ; unclear> ; and, Lion Dance, and, because it' ; s just, we are all, we' ; re all the same at the end of the day. And um, so I, this initial year we did a huge, we did a lot of outreach. We have a great leadership team, and so between us and our outreach and our circles, we, we got a lot of support from folks. And it didn' ; t take much of an ask. Folks really wanted to be a part of this. They really wanted this. Willis: I can imagine. That' ; s fascinating. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So is there anything else that you uh, or how else do you continue to help, I guess Native Hawaiian culture and how can, for example, someone like myself get involved if they wanted to, kind of help and promote in that area? Martinez: Oh gosh. Um, oh, I' ; m sorry. Can you repeat that again? < ; laughs> ; Willis: So I guess what I' ; m really getting at, like how can someone else, if they really want to, you know, help and be a part of the cause, how would they go about doing that? Would they just reach out to you? Martinez: Oh, yeah. I mean the, I mean, what, that' ; s the irony in it, right? Is the majority of, of my supporters and our team are not Native Hawaiian. And, but it' ; s that allyship and because they you know, believe in, in, in the mission they' ; re absolutely willing to just jump in < ; laughs> ; and do whatever needs to be done. Um, so yeah, I mean anybody who ever want, who wants to be an ally, we are, we are here and happy and-- Willis: Come on down! Martinez: Yes. Ready to, to you know, just grow our community. Willis: Right. That' ; s so cool. So you kind of may have already answered this earlier but overall, as you reflect on everything you have done and accomplished to this point in your life, what are you most proud of and what has brought you the most joy? Has it been, maybe the hula aspect, um, teaching elders, children, or is there something else? Martinez: < ; laughs> ; Uh I think, it' ; s my own children, right? That will always be my most proud accomplishment. < ; laughs> ; Them as individuals, but also taking that perspective again of what I really could have needed or wanted in my upbringing, I feel like I provided that for my children and have instilled that into my children. And, knowing that I know that they' ; re gonna move forward and pass that on to their children, that' ; s, that will always be my proudest accomplishment, knowing that the generations far after I' ; m gone, will still be carrying on those, on those traditions. Willis: Yeah. That' ; s fantastic. And then, before we close our interview, is there anything else you would like to mention? Maybe something I didn' ; t ask you about that you really were hoping I would or? < ; laughs> ; Martinez: Oh gosh. Um, not that I can think of. Um, yeah, no nothing < ; laughs> ; Willis: Okay. Yeah, no that' ; s perfect. I think we definitely covered a lot of great stuff in this interview. So, really appreciate your time, Ilima. This was very informative. I think a lot of people can get a lot out of this whole interview and, really appreciate everything that you do for not only Hawaiian culture, but just the community in general. So thank you so much for your time. Martinez: Yeah, thank you. Willis: Alright. < ; Martinez laughs> ; Now I' ; m gonna go ahead and stop the recording. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. 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Title
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Martinez, Ilima Kam. Interview April 7, 2023
Description
An account of the resource
Ilima Kam Martinez is a California State University San Marcos alum and the founder and President of UMEKE, an organization that promotes and preserves Hawaiian culture through hula dancing. In this interview, Ilima discusses her upbringing, the influence and relationship with her father, the importance of hula in Hawaiian cultures, the challenges she faced during the Covid-19 pandemic, her passion for elders, her mentors, going back to school to earn her degree, and her goals for UMEKE moving forward.
Identifier
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SC027-027
Subject
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California State University San Marcos
COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts
COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
Hawaii -- Culture
Hawaii -- Social life and customs
Hula (Dance)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-04-07
Format
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audio
Coverage
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San Diego County (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Hawaiian
Rights Holder
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Ilima Kam Martinez
Creator
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Ilima Kam Martinez
Contributor
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Ryan Willis
Type
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Sound
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Community history
History Department internship
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a9584fdc97e42f64b69b7f158055847a.pdf
fc499ddb820fad05b30fef396a378b89
PDF Text
Text
Martin Leyva
Transcript, Interview
2022-10-27
Sean Visintainer:
This is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Martin Leyva as part of the California State University San
Marcos Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Today is Thursday, October 27th, 2022, and the
interview is taking place at the University Library at Cal State San Marcos. Martin, thank you so much for
talking with us today. I thought we'd start off by talking about the work that you do, and I was
wondering if you can speak to your roles at Cal State as well as Palomar and MiraCosta Colleges.
Martin Leyva:
Yeah. so currently I'm the program coordinator for Project Rebound here at Cal State San Marcos.
Project Rebound started three years ago as a program that supports formerly incarcerated students. I'm
also a lecturer within the Sociology [department] Criminology and Justice Studies [program]. And my
work primarily is around formerly incarcerated students. It includes Palomar College's Transitions
Program that started in 2016, 2017? 2017, and I worked there, also a professor of sociology there, as
well as the support person for Transitions students. And same thing at MiraCosta, [unclear] teaches
sociology, lecture and sociology there, as well as work with their Transitions students, so formerly
incarcerated students. And the cool thing is now they're Rising Scholars, which is the Chancellor's,
California Chancellor's Office support for formerly incarcerated folks within the community college. So
that's what I do.
Visintainer:
What does that support look like from the -- you said the Chancellor's Office?
Leyva:
Yeah, so well, there's two parts. One, Project Rebound also gets support from the Chancellor's office to
have programs in the CSU, provides financial support for formerly incarcerated folks. And that's the
same thing at the community college with Rising Scholars Network is financial support and professional
development for formerly incarcerated students all supported by the Chancellor's office. And that's all
new initiatives that just happened in the last couple years. Rising Scholars just happened this past year,
funding to community colleges, which is a big help, a huge help.
Visintainer:
How did Rising Scholars come to be?
Leyva:
Rising-- I mean Rising Scholars came to be because they saw the need. They saw like a lot of community
colleges starting to build up and amplify their services to incarcerated and formally incarcerated
students. I love the work. I started doing this work back in 2007 when I came home from prison. Started
community college and you know, it's just, I don't know. It wasn't -- there wasn't a lot of support back in
2007 for formerly incarcerated folks and building that program and other programs that got built around
existing programs and what we were doing at Santa Barbara City College, last 15 years is just more and
more community colleges throughout the state started doing this work. Project rebound, expanded
from San Francisco State on to thirteen other campuses. The UC [University of California] system started
creating Underground Scholars that supported you know, Underground Scholars first started in
Berkeley, and it had started expanding to the UCs. And I think the state of California just saw like, there
was a movement and momentum around laws and policies and procedures that supported -- they
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�Martin Leyva
Transcript, Interview
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needed to support formerly incarcerated students, because a lot were coming home and a lot were
going to college. And it's been nothing but positivity, you know, I mean, the more they realize, the more
degrees we get, the less the likelihood of us going back to prison drops significantly. And they started to
fund them. So, it's been so beautiful to watch.
Visintainer:
Yeah. For sure. What you mentioned the that there's financial support and professional development
that's provided and what does that look like?
Leyva:
So, professional development… someone like myself who's been to prison, who's got a record it's really
hard, especially in areas like this state, right? To get a job with felonies on your record or having an
extensive background. But a lot of these programs, they're actually encouraging for institutions to hire
people with lived experience. And so it opens, the professional development opens up the doors to
people like myself to be able to come work for -- you know, it's interesting because at one point, how
much distrust, and I dunno what the word is, distrust. And just like I was property of the state for a long
time. <Affirmative> [Be]cause property of the county from county probation to the state of California
being in prison and on parole, you’re property of the state, and then to suddenly go to work for the
state, it's kind of an interesting trajectory. But the professional development is they're encouraging
institutions to hire formerly incarcerated folks to lead the charge to work with formerly incarcerated
students. And I think that, that, I could see myself in admin work now. I could see myself as, you know,
someday becoming like a dean of a department or… and that was something I never thought as a
formerly incarcerated individual that I'd ever see myself at that level. And I think that that through
Project Rebound, I'm able to see myself as, “Wow, I can actually do this.” And that's the part of the
professional development, because if I was to leave here, I'm building the skills it takes to continue this
work in other academic institutions or nonprofits or, you know what I mean, other places. And I think
that there's a lot of skills that's being built working for the university. So-Visintainer:
So it's skill building its opening doors with state government also, I assume with private organizations.
Leyva:
Yeah. I mean, again, the nonprofit sector. A lot of organizations that are taking on issues around
incarceration, around formerly incarcerated, around reentry you know, there are big nonprofits too. And
you know, this is the professional development that if I was to leave the university, which I don't foresee
me leaving the university anytime soon. You know, I got skills to be able to apply for these jobs that I
would've never had. Right? And I'd be taking leadership or taking mentorship from some of our
leadership here. I'm really understanding what it is to maybe someday lead an organization, right? And
yeah, so the nonprofit sector even, I don't know, I don't ever foresee, like me going back to the prison
system to work. But if, you know, job came up and it was, you know, proactive in helping people get out
of prison, finding resources, I would take a job back into the, you know well not back into, but go back to
the prison system to work to make sure that incarcerated folks had an easier time transitioning from
prison to society, right? And so, I think those skills are being developed here. There's a lot of sectors that
I can see myself working in. Yeah.
Visintainer:
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�Martin Leyva
Transcript, Interview
2022-10-27
So you're a lecturer. You have you have a hand in three different colleges, programs with helping
formally incarcerated individuals with their college experiences. So you're very busy.
Leyva: Yeah. <laughs>
Visintainer:
What does, what does like a typical day of work look like for you?
Leyva:
A typical day of work… it depends on the semester, but it is, it's a typical day is, you know, get up, get
ready for work, you take care of your household things, show up to university, check in, do your emails,
support students, check in on students. Prepare for meetings, prepare agendas for meetings attend a lot
of meetings. <Laugh> There's a lot of meetings in the university. And it's in, it's also preparing for class.
And I don't prepare for class. You know, that's usually after hours or before work. And then, you know,
different schedules, different colleges, different days. You know Monday, Wednesday for instance, I'm
at MiraCosta teaching formerly incarcerated folks, sociology intro class. So, you know, the typical lecture
here's the information, the grading, the mentoring of students. Tuesday, Thursday, I'm doing the same
thing for Palomar College. And then quite honestly, I mean I stay busy, so I go home and I'm prepared a
little food, hang out with the dog, and then all of a sudden you're—[be]cause I'm also in a doctoral
program right now. So gotta do research, gotta write. It's a very <laugh> now that I say that out loud, it's
super busy. But you know, I think that I also see the importance all of it, right? I see the opportunity that
has been placed in front of me. And I know that there's a good benefit to it all right? I think it's also… I
stay busy as a formerly incarcerated individual. I know a lot of formerly incarcerated individuals are
watching me and they see me and they could see them-- They could see their lives changing too. And I
think that that's the super important part is that the mentoring that I've gotten, I got to give it away,
right? And so that's a typical day is just, you know, Monday through Friday and on weekends, hopefully
get a little downtime and hang out a little bit, if not, you know, I'm sitting there researching, writing, and
grading and—
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
Wouldn't trade my life for anything. Cause I think I've seen the worst of worst and I don't wanna see
that anymore. And I think I can do something about that if I continue to do what I do. So…
Visintainer:
So you mentioned that you-- part of your day is supporting students and checking in with students. And I
imagine, and I'm making a bit of an assumption here, please, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I
imagine that there's a significant amount of emotional labor that goes into your work. What, I guess my
question is what is the emotional labor that goes into assisting students with their transition to college
life?
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Transcript, Interview
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Leyva:
Yeah, there's a lot of emotional labor attached to it. [Be]cause it's not just formally incarcerated
students here, when I teach here at the university, I'm teaching sociology to undergraduate students
from all walks of life. And but when it comes to students in general, I think a lot of students still,
especially at the community college, working with them, they struggle a lot with imposter syndrome. A
lot of less, you know, they don't have the best self-esteem or self-value. A lot of 'em can't believe that
they can actually make it. And you know, you want to support them as much as you can, you know,
encourage them. Words of encouragement, sharing, you know, even the tutoring part, which is second
nature to me: this is how you write a paper. This is what you should think about with research. Like,
that's, that's like second nature to me now. But I also remember what it was like to be a student coming
outta prison and going through education, which I'm still doing now. I've built so many skills and other
skills I give away. But there's a lot of times where I think the emotional, real emotional labor comes is
when students don't succeed. Right. We still have a lot of students that deal with the barriers, you know
the getting a job, the family unification, addiction, alcoholism, even students that still deal with, you
know, family trauma, neighborhood trauma, like gangs and stuff, right? And you, a lot of times I tell
students, you, especially coming from that background, I tell students, you gotta be careful having one
foot in your trauma and one foot in education, cause one of them's gonna win. And we try our best to
have education heal that trauma, but a lot of times we see students go back to the old ways and that,
you know, it's a little emotional taxing. I just shared in a discussion I had today that you can't change the
person who's not ready to change, but what you can do is just plant the seeds that help them change,
you know, and keep an open door. But there is, I find myself, this is actually a really good question cause
I find myself at night when I lay down, my brain will tell me what to do next because I'll think about that
student that still struggles and that's emotional. Like I carry that with me. And I think it's also a
motivator to be like, “Okay, here's what I can do different. Here's who I can reach out to.” This work is
not just me. It is a huge community around. And there's a lot of emotional labor with that, you know,
And again, just students that you know, I had mentors believe in me before I believed in myself. And
there's still areas where I don't believe in myself where I still have people believing in me. And that's the
thing, like I always tell students, Don't worry, you might not believe in yourself now, but I believe in you.
You can do this. You might be looking through distorted eyes, but I could see the clear picture, you
know, and it's a matter of them just trusting you. We also deal with the population that doesn't trust
very well. You know what I mean? And so that can be emotionally taxing. It can be. And but again, we
show up, we role model. And eventually the more you show up, the more they show up because they,
you know, you're role modeling what you want them to do. And that's, that's super important. So.
Visintainer:
Is, is that the key to building trust or are there other things that you do to build that relationship? I
assume there's like a feeling out stage that happens and then there's a trust that's built. I guess my
question is how do you go about building trust with somebody?
Leyva:
I think that the students that gravitate towards me also recognize that there's a big similarity. Whether
it's like, cause I, I'm very open with students, [I’m] a student in recovery, been clean and sober nineteen
years. I'm a student whose, or an individual who has addressed a lot of healing within myself. And I think
that when students know where I've come from and know where I'm at, they still see me for where I
come from. So I'm an insider for a lot of them, right? And so there's already trust there. But again, it's
also to like and I'll say it straight up, “You might not trust me now, but eventually you will.” And it gets to
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that point where they're like, you know, you're reliable. You know, they're gonna call, they're gonna
email. They don't really email. They'll call or text. And I answer and whatever they need, I say, Here,
look, call this person. Go here, go that or come see me. I'll go, I'll meet you. Come to the office, or
whatever. And students we rely on each other and they also know we're like-minded. You know I'll
never tell a student to do something that I haven't done or not doing. I'll never ask a student to step
outta their comfort zone without support. Right. And so they know that they're always gonna be
supported and and cared for. They're always gonna be seen. And so, yeah, I think it, it takes a little bit to
build trust, but it happens. It happens. And this is also, goes back to that question about professional
development, is it's important to bring people into these institutions who actually have the lived
experience of the people coming in.
Visintainer:
Hm-hmm.
Leyva:
Because we're here trying our best to succeed. And we're showing these folks that are just like us, just at
a different level, that they too can be here. And they know that. It's like, there's like this insider trust,
this insider knowledge, this insider acceptance that, you know I see them, they see me, and we have
each other. We're gonna hold each other accountable. I will hold, I will hold students accountable.
Right? And this isn't just formally incarcerated students, which is most of my workers around this has to
do with students who are in the classroom here at Cal State San Marcos, who are also like Chicano or
Chicana. They come from this marginal background. Maybe they're first generation, actually most of
them are first generation. And then they see a professor. Cause I don't look like a typical professor, but
they recognize my aesthetics, their language, my dress style. They recognize that as very similar to them.
And so then you become those mentors for those students. Right. You know, when they come see you
at the office, it's like, “Oh yeah, check out this resource, check out that resource.” And nobody's really
sharing with them that knowledge and introducing them to folks on campus that can help support their
success. Right. Or their, their trajectory towards success. And the trust gets built and once it's built, it's
there, right. And it's also always being there. And I, and I laugh because it's like, I've had students share
with me, like, “Every time I call you answer.” I'm like, “Trust me, that's my job. Because I believe in you.”
Right. And I want to be there for you. And cause a lot of times we deal with students who understand
what disappointment and abandonment looks like. And if they come here and they get the same
treatment, they're not really gonna be successful. Or, you know, the retention rates for them are gonna
drop and we're not gonna hold onto them. And so I think it's important to have someone like me,
someone like Dr. Xuan Santos, some of the other professors on this campus who mirror, you know,
Rafael Hernandez. A lot of professors on this campus who come from the backgrounds of our students
and students can see themselves in our places. And that's what we want. So it all starts with trust. We
have to, they have to build trust first. And we just go from there, you know?
Visintainer:
Yeah. Can you talk about a great success that you had at work with either a student or a policy change?
I'm just interested, like, what does a really great day at work look like and feel like?
Leyva:
Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins
and Sean Visintainer
5
2023-05-03
�Martin Leyva
Transcript, Interview
2022-10-27
What's a really great day at work look like? Actually quite a few and, you know, I'll share one. So I had a
student, it was my first year actually teaching here. It was I felt like I'd been teaching a really long time,
but after I got my master's degree here, and I started, like the following semester, I had a class and a
student in this class who was very quiet, very reserved. And he was just kind of like, came out, came up
with me after class. He's like, “I've never seen a professor like you.” And then he started to share about
him, his upbringing and his family. And right away I gravitated towards like, what this student was
sharing and how he can be successful. And it was a little mentor/mentee relationship built. And a great
day here is when you get the email says, I decided to go to grad school. I want to apply for this program.
Can you help me? And I'm like, yes! And we're, I'm writing a letter for him for grad school. And then he
gets, he sends me another letter. I got into grad school. And just that last semester, spring, spring
quarter last year, he graduated with a master's degree in social work.
Visintainer:
Awesome.
Leyva:
Got a student in my office right now who formally incarcerated. He spent twenty-nine years in prison,
came out an older gentleman. I met him when he first came out and he started Palomar to be able to
help him. He got two associates degrees, came here, got his bachelor's degree, and he just started his
first year of graduate school, right. And it's, I have, there's, so I'm truly-- I feel blessed because I have
like, so many little stories. And I say little because they're gonna continue to grow, because these
individuals are also gonna guide the next generation of students coming in. That helps. I mean that's
success to me. And then just being part of, like, when I first started Transitions Program at Santa Barbara
City College, to watch that program kind of grow into this big thing that policy changes, where finally,
politicians are saying we need to fund programs and start programs and to see programs. Community
college goes into schools-- community college goes into jails and prisons to teach associates degrees,
and to me, success is like knowing that I played a small part in that. Right. And to be able to be an
advocate and a voice for people ending life without the possibly of parole for minors who went to prison
and playing a small part in that. Now you ask that question, I'm like, ‘cause I never really think about it. I
just do the work. Yeah. I just kinda show up and, and everything about, you know, like, what's, what's
success to you? I'm like, you know, just show up to work. But to realize now when you say that, [unclear]
had even just a small part of all these beautiful things. And as my mentor, Dr. Chris Bickel, he says, he's
like, “Man, the work just began for you.” Right. Yeah, I never really even think about it. Just kinda show
up to do work. <laughs> And, yeah, I think that's every day too. You get students show up in the office
and they get to share, like, “I got an A on this test, thank you!” And I'm like, “Don’t thank me. I didn't do
no-- I didn't do the study and I didn't do, I just gave you a couple encouraging words and you showed up,
you took the test. It's not me, it's you, right?” And I think that you know, I get at least one piece of good
news every day and that's a good thing. So, yeah. Never even thought about that, man. Thanks.
Visintainer:
<Laughs> Well, you're welcome. Thank you for sharing. Let's see. So, you started the Transitions
Program at Santa Barbara City College. Can you talk a little bit about how the Transitions Program there
came to be?
Leyva:
Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins
and Sean Visintainer
6
2023-05-03
�Martin Leyva
Transcript, Interview
2022-10-27
Yeah, so I got released from prison in 2007. And I didn't know what I wanted to do. All I knew was I
didn't wanna back to prison. Education was not really on my mind. Change was though, right? Just not
going back to jail. Not going back to prison. Not using drugs, not using alcohol, not going back to the
neighborhood. I knew that that was what I didn't want. But I lost… because of my record, I lost three
jobs in three months. And my niece just had this idea, “Why don't you go to school?” And I went to the, I
went to Santa Barbara City College. I was scared. It was the first time I'd really ever felt like I was… you
know I was scared to be there. I didn't feel like I fit in. I didn't feel like I belonged there. I didn't fit in
[unclear] scared. My niece was the one who really practically held my hand in my first semester. And I
always tell folks: that transition started out of an act of fear because I was scared to be there. I didn't
feel like I fit in. And every time I went to the parole office, I was telling another formerly incarcerated
individual. Back then, we were still using the word convict, right. And I'd be like, “Hey, you should come
up and check out school.” Selfishly, I wanted him there. Right. And I also saw two individuals I'd always
see at the parole office. I saw 'em on campus. And I did really quickly, I recognized I didn't have the
ability to ask for help. I didn't have the ability to raise my hand. I read and I was engaged in here, but I
wasn't vocal about what I was learning. And these two individuals were Black. They're Black men. And in
prison we walk around really fine racial lines. Right. These unwritten rules around race. And so, I at the
time I was kind of scared to approach them because of race, but I was still institutionalized. And then
really quickly, I said, I want to be here and I know they want to be here. And so I approached them,
Tyrone and Malik and I introduced myself to them. We just got to talking about school, classes. Then
they also felt the exact same things I was feeling. And next thing you know, we started a little support
group. Me, Malik, Tyrone, and then there was a woman that joined and another person that joined
another person-- and then we just started this transitions support group that turned into the school
EOPS Director at the time, Marsha Wright, I said, “Hey, we need a little spot to meet.” And she's like,
“Yeah, I'm gonna get you a room so you can continue the support group.” And that happened so quickly.
The summer right after that, we had our very first cohort model of education for formerly incarcerated
individuals. And I think the first cohort we had like fourteen formerly incarcerated students. Second, we
had like twenty-two, then we had twenty-five, and we had twenty-five every year after that up until
Covid, because Covid shut down a lot of the programs. But, you know, the Transitions Program was born
and you know, addressing access to college, recruiting resources, you know learning disabilities, like a
lot of the departments got involved because they saw a big need. And there this was the small
community of Santa Barbara. We have students coming from Ventura, from San Louis Obispo to do the
program. And so I think that that sparked the conversation. You know, campuses should address that.
It's been such a pleasure and honor to be a part of that. Cause when I moved out here in 2016 to come
to school, Cal State San Marcos, that first year we took it to MiraCosta and MiraCosta ran with it for one
year. Second year I was here. Palomar. We had approached Palomar. Palomar started their Transition
Program, which still both, now both campuses have one. And they're doing such amazing work. Right.
And yeah, like I said, you know, it sparked a good movement. It's an honor to be fifteen years removed. I
would say I'm fifteen years removed from prison, but I'm fifteen years born in education. Right. And that
feels good to be part of that work.
Visintainer:
Yeah. I have so many follow up questions from what you just said. I'm gonna try and frame 'em in kind of
a logical order. Okay. So you, you mentioned that you tried three jobs after getting out of prison. And
did you say you were let go from 'em? Yeah. what were the jobs?
Leyva:
Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins
and Sean Visintainer
7
2023-05-03
�Martin Leyva
Transcript, Interview
2022-10-27
My first job was doing construction. My neighbor, I paroled back to my sister's house and the neighbor
was, you know, essentially a good guy. His name's Joe. He was doing construction at the time. He said, I
can get you a job at this construction company. And I was excited to work. Two things happened with
that job. One, it was a big commercial industrial construction company they built, wasn't like building
houses. We were building huge buildings. They ran a background check and it took about, you know,
twenty days to then to come back. And they came back and this says, it's a lot of liability here. You just
got out of prison and so we can't get you the job. The other thing was my parole officer. I was in Santa
Barbara County and literally the job site was about three miles outside Ventura County. So, because I
left Santa Barbara County into Ventura County, he's like, “You can't have that job.” I'm like, “It's a job
though, right?” And so not only did the construction company not continue employing me because
there was a lot of liability, parole officer said, “You can't leave the county.”
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
So I lost that job. So then my sister introduced me to temporary work. Right. A temp agency. And I got a
job with, great job with, Powell-Peralta working, making skateboards. I thought that was a great job—
Visintainer:
Cool!
Leyva:
Loved the skate culture. Right. And it was really cool designs and was learning how to make boards and
the temp agency, I was working there. I, you know and after thirty days of working there they said, “Oh,
we want to hire you're a good worker. You show up, you do your job. And you're—" They really liked
me. And, to go from temp agency to permanent employment, they ran a background check and they
also said, “You know, you're just too fresh out. You just gotten out a couple months,” or not even a
month maybe a month and a week, month and two weeks or two months, whatever. So then they didn't
hire me on. And then I went to go work for janitorial, same temp agency. I was doing janitorial, cleaning
buildings at night, nobody in sight, just me and you know, cleaning supplies. And after the same thing,
after thirty days, they said, “We really like your work. You're good. Let's hire you on.” And then
background check. And so it was, it deflated me pretty quick. Like, it was just exhausting. I just, I just
wanted to do well. I wanted to do good and I wanted to make some money for my kids and get back on
track, whatever that meant. And that's why when my niece introduced me to school, should I go to
school and then I think when I attended, started Santa Barbara City College, my parole officer said,
“Well, I'm glad you're in school, but that's not a job.” Right. FAFSA’s not money. And I was like, It's kind
of money <laughs>, right? But he's like, “No, you need a job.” And then fairly quickly, I remember talking
to my EOP counselor, EOPS counselor and I said, “I need a job.” And she's just like, “Oh, this this thing
called federal work study. You should try to get a job on campus.” And I was like, “What's that?” So I
explored it. Next thing you know, I'm working for English as a Second Language Department and I was
doing administrative assistant work. And I'm like, “How am I do--? I don't even know what I'm doing!”
But they gave me an opportunity. City College said, you know, you don't have certain crimes, so we're
just gonna hire you. And I was like <surprised gesture> “Hmm.” You know, next thing I know I'm working
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and Sean Visintainer
8
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�Martin Leyva
Transcript, Interview
2022-10-27
in, and I've been working in education since. An interesting thing is, same thing that happened to me
back in 2007, trying to get a job is the same thing happening to people now. And this is why, again, this
work is so important. We address those issues. We hire students on campuses. So.
Visintainer:
And you said the construction company said that the insurance liability was too much. And so when
formerly incarcerated individuals are coming back and they're getting jobs and they're going through
these background checks, I assume that's just a huge barrier. And things like insurance liability come up.
How do you address that with students that you're mentoring and how do folks get over that barrier?
Leyva:
Yeah. Well now, I mean, this is the other thing about doing this work for so long: policy change has
happened. Now we have the Fair Chance Act where you give me a job application and it says, “Have you
been convicted of a felony?” You don't actually-- you don't have to mark anything down anymore. This
allows for your application, at least to maybe go through the second process of an interview. They
cannot run a background check on you until they hire you. So I always tell students, “You know what?”
‘Cause some students just don't know, some formerly incarcerated folks just don't know. They see that
box and they just don't even-- why is that box still on the application? I don't know. It should be
removed from all applications, especially in the state of California. But I tell them, “If you see that box,
don't even mark it. Put in all your skills, send me your resume, let's hook up your resume.” Even if
somebody doesn't have any real work experience for, you know maybe there's a five-year gap because
they've been in prison, there's still skills being built, whether you worked in laundry, worked in the
kitchen, did landscaping, did some type of machine shop, there's skills that are being built and we can
put that in your resume. And so working with students, and the hard part is working with formerly
incarcerated folks, we don't come in contact with all formerly incarcerated folks. So there's still a large
portion, a large population of formerly incarcerated individuals who don't get this mentorship. But the
ones that do, you know, let's work on your communication. Let's work on interview skills, let's work on
all this stuff so that when they're ready to go for that job, they have a little bit of a leg up. Right. And you
know, the Fair Chance Act has really given a lot of formerly incarcerated folks the opportunity to get
work. Now, is it a livable wage? Probably not, but it's something, right? It's a starting point. But it's still
an uphill battle. Cause we have a student currently in Project Rebound right now who is just having a
hard time trying to find a job with a decent wage and attend school full time. And thinking about, you
know, doing something different like truck driving school until you can save some money. There's still a
lot of barriers. And as much mentorship and guidance we can give, there's still certain jobs that say,
“Yeah, we wanna hire 'em.” And then as soon as they find that there is a criminal background, you
know, just like pull the blanket out or pull the carpet out from underneath you and you feel like you're
stage one again. Right. And so it's hard. That's the other-- that's the emotional labor that we were
talking about earlier. It's like, you know, I feel like I've reached a place in my career where I feel okay,
but it's hard to be here knowing that there's so many other folks that still don't feel that yet. And it's
both emotionally taxing, but also I feel grateful too because it's like, I understand that I've been in those
shoes before and it's like, just keep showing up for them and they'll be okay. And telling them, show for
yourself. You know, show for yourself. So, Yeah.
Visintainer:
Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins
and Sean Visintainer
9
2023-05-03
�Martin Leyva
Transcript, Interview
2022-10-27
Yeah. I have a question, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure exactly. I'm gonna let it gestate as we continue
talking. Cause I'm not entirely sure what I want to ask, if that makes sense. There's something there if
that makes sense.
Leyva:
Yeah. It makes total sense to me. <laughs>
Visintainer:
Okay. So let's see. So let's circle back then to the Transitions Program at Santa Barbara City College. And
we've talked a little bit about how that came to be. That was-- it was really interesting. And I guess
something that you mentioned there was a cohort that started and it was a smaller cohort, and then it
grew as the years go on. And I was curious about how that communication starts. When before you
have a program and you know that there are formerly incarcerated students on your campus, how do
you get the word out about a program to help them?
Leyva:
It was really grassroots. So I'll start from the very-- like me and Tyrone, Malik, Christina, the number of
folks in the very beginning, we would sit at this little bench on campus, right? And we would meet each
other there in the morning. We'd talk about school, talk about tutoring, talk about resources. We’d
support each other. But when you see a group of formerly incarcerated people or people that <airquote
gesture> look formally incarcerated, the cops are also looking, right? You can see campus security, like,
you know, what’s this group of people doing here? Right? And I've been asked too, when the early days
by campus security or can I help you? Are you a student here? I'm like, Yeah, I'm a student here. And
they're like, “Can I see your ID?” And I'm like, at the time I'm like, I'm on parole. I'm like, “Yes, you can
see my ID.” Technically they had no right to do that right. I didn't know that. So I knew that there was
like this surveillance aspect that was happening to us. And so that's why I approached the school, not to
start a program, but to, “Hey, can you give us a safe place to meet?” Here's this group of people. We're
all formerly incarcerated, We're all here. And it was like, yeah. So that's, that's that entry to the, to the
dialogue as we're here and we need a safe place. And I said, you know, the campus security is always
like looking at us or questioning one of us when we're coming into the college. And so the people that I
was talking to were like, “Oh, that's not right. They shouldn't do that.” Right. And they help us help
ourselves by saying, If they ask you that, you don't have to answer any questions. You can actually call
me or whatever. Right. They were really supportive. But then you realize when you start asking more
and more formally incarcerated people to come to school, that something needs to happen. And the
good thing is, is that the school, especially EOPS at that time at Santa Barbara City College, still to this
day, their goal is to help marginal students their whole, And they saw the need really quickly, and they
said, “You think you can get a program started?” And I was like, I actually know I can get a program
started, but what is a program? Right? And they asked me like, “What do you think a program would
look like?” I said, “We get a whole classroom for formerly incarcerated folks.” I don't even know what
you would teach, but we could all learn together and we can support each other and we can build I don't
even know if I knew what the definition of cohort was before that. And then I was told, “You think you
can get a cohort going?” And I just said, I didn't know what it was. I was like, “Sure. What is it?” You
know what I mean? But, just-- they were really supportive. And then next thing you know, they're
talking funding, they're talking, you know, “Oh, we'd like to hire you as a peer advisor to run this
program and do this stuff.” And I was, I was just like, “Yes.” Because it was a job. It was being around the
Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins
and Sean Visintainer
10
2023-05-03
�Martin Leyva
Transcript, Interview
2022-10-27
people that made me comfortable, which were four other formerly incarcerated folks. I felt good about
what I was doing and I was also doing drug and alcohol treatment or going to school for drug and
alcohol treatment at the time so everything we were talking about in class was fitting into this model
that was being built. Right. And so I had my teachers, my professors in those classes actually telling me
about group process and all this other stuff. It just felt like everything was organic at that moment. And
that's how the conversation started. And that's you know, I think me and Malik and Tyrone, we just ran
with it, you know, and it was yeah. And that's how the conversation happened. And that's also goes back
to professional development because I feel like when they start talking about funding and, you know,
writing up a budget and all this stuff, I was like, I have no idea what this means. And here I am just like
watching these EOPS counselors and these program coordinators talk about this stuff, and I'm watching
them do the work, and I'm like, “Oh, I want to learn this.” It's not something-- not a skill I've ever had or
been around. Again, I didn't know it would take me to this place, but I knew that there was some skills
being built there. Right. And I think I answered your question. <laughs>
Visintainer:
Yeah. What is what is EOPS?
Leyva:
I always get this wrong. Extended Opportunities, Programs and Services. So it's like EOP here, and here it
has a different definition, but it's pretty much like EOPS is the program that yeah-- So there's like single
mothers, there's you know, marginal students that need extra support.
Visintainer:
Mmm-hmm
Leyva: They're gonna provide the, the support, the resources, the mentorship, the guidance, the
tutoring. We have tutoring labs in this department. And our own academic counselors in there too. We
were just like, Here's your head plan. And IGETC [Intersegmental General Education Transfer Curriculum;
course that California community college students can complete to satisfy general education
requirements] and all that other stuff that goes along with, you know, students that are getting ready to
transfer. And Transitions fell into the lap of Noel Gomez in the early, his name was Noel Gomez. And we
pretty much formulated the program together. He was working at administration. We had the students
do the work. We started collaborating. He still runs to this day. He runs the Transitions Program. And he
is the EOPS director now too, or interim director, I think.
Visintainer: Okay.
Leyva:
So he stayed in the same field doing the same work. And it's just it's cool to still have those ties, those
connections and still watching him do such beautiful work and be a mentor to me, you know, So.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
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and Sean Visintainer
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�Martin Leyva
Transcript, Interview
2022-10-27
Leyva:
Yeah.
Visintainer:
So you mentioned that the college gave you a meeting space. And then… and then you get your first
kind of cohort together. What was the-- can you talk about the first meeting that you had?
Leyva:
With the school or with the students?
Visintainer:
With the students?
Leyva:
<laughs> Yeah. ‘Cause that was interesting because they said, “You can start your own program, or you
can start this program. Can you get students?” And I said, “Yes.” The first meeting was really interesting
because we had a small group of students who had already started community college who were
helping. But I remember just like they're like, “Just make a flyer.” And I had no idea I can make a really
fancy flyer now. Back then I said I think I even said “Transitions Program.” Program-- ex-convicts I think
was written on the flyers. Very unethical or very, like, these are not the language we're using anymore.
But I had the, the email and the phone number to call. I remember making-- so funny because I made a
Word document and I put the information on the top and then a copy and paste and put it below and
then printed 'em out and then cut 'em in half. Like this, this is like my ideal of making flyers, right?
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
But I remember, like my first conversation with students or potential students is every time I was at the
parole office, I'd show up like, “Hey man, you should try to go to school where, you know, we got this
program going off in school.” Most people were like, uninterested or like, no, I remember even seeing
one guy, he's like, “Oh, yeah, I'll check it out.” And then he crumbled it up and threw it away. Right. But
I'd show up to the courthouse and I'd see folks walking out of the court and I'd be like, you know, “Hey,
you should try coming to school, try going to school.” I'd put flyers in the sober living homes, or I'd go to
sober living homes and hand out flyers or and so it was, it was that conversation. It wasn't just me. It
was me and Malik and Tyrone. And even in our neighborhoods where we'd know people who were our
friends that are formerly incarcerated, it'd be like, “Hey, you should try home to school.” And we already
knew that they were kind of tired of the old lifestyle too so they were like, “Yeah, I'll try it out.” And it
just quickly-- that was the first meetings. That was the first conversations about going to school. And I
also knew that when they did come up to school, that I would have to show 'em, this is where the-- this
is how you feel like application. This is where you do your FAFSA [Free Application for Federal Aid]. This
is, you know, this is a financial aid, academic counseling or academic advising or, everything my niece
showed me, I showed them.
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�Martin Leyva
Transcript, Interview
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Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
And everything I wanted to know, I was asking EOPS counselors and director, you know, “What do I do if
a student asked about a job?” And they're like, “Oh, go to Human Resources. See what jobs are available
on campus, make sure they have federal work study.” So I learned it all pretty quickly. And that was the
conversations with students. Cause I'm like, “Look, we can you get a job up here, you can do, you can
get food up here.” They were, you know, there's you know, there's-- I have a learning disability, so I was
a part of the DSS, the Disabled Students Program. And I was like, “Look, if you got learning disabilities,”
and you know trying to break that stigma too right away. Right. So it's all about gathering resources. And
every time I've met with a group of students, potential students, or individually, it was like all this
information that I was giving 'em. Right. So it was quickly getting the buy in, but I also felt really good
about what I was doing. Yeah. You know, and that it felt good to be like, “Yeah, okay, I'll do it. I'll sign
up.” And then you just meet 'em at the campus and you're filling out the application. Just at that time, it
was just one finger typing too. Cause I didn't know how to type either, right?
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
But I, you know, I just, it just felt good. And they did, there was a lot of, still to this day, people come
into college and this community college, or even come to the university, there's that imposter
syndrome. “I can't do it.” And it’s just like, “Yes you can. Yes you can.” And you know, it's still, yeah. That
was the first conversation. And it's-- and it feels like it still happens to this day. Right. Even though we
got somewhat of a formula, we have great people, great resources. It feels like those first conversations
happen all the time.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
And which even though a lot of things have changed, the individual self hasn’t. “I don't believe in myself,
I can't do it.” And it's like, “Yes, you can. Yes you can.” It feels like 2007 and 2022, those conversations
are still the same. Right. So Yeah. It's conversations happen on a regular, so.
Visintainer:
You've talked to a couple times about Imposter Syndrome and that's like, so rampant in academia.
Leyva:
Mm-hmm.
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�Martin Leyva
Transcript, Interview
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Visintainer:
And then you throw students that are maybe not familiar with an academic environment into the mix,
and you add all these barriers, these like bureaucratic and logistical barriers, like university campuses
are not necessarily easy places to navigate. Especially for folks that aren't familiar with them. So how did
you go about addressing and facilitating students to be successful? Navigating the bureaucracy?
Leyva:
You just show up <laughs>, you know what I mean? You just show up. You don't wanna show up or you
feel you're gonna get push back or you feel like you don't belong. I mean, there's so many feelings even
now. I mean, I still deal with that now and my role in administration and I love this campus because it's
been very supportive of the programs, of me, of our students. It’s a great community. Even Palomar,
MiraCosta is very open. But you just show up. You just, you just show up. And I think for me, and I think
also too, for a lot of our students, we know it's waiting for us if we don't show up, you know. We know
what the other side of this looks like. The gangs, the drugs, the alcohol, the jails, the prisons. And that's
not for all, all of us, right? There's not drugs and alcohol with everybody. But we understand what's on
the other side. If we're not doing this, what else do we have? Right? And so we just show up and it feels
good to actually do this work. And when that imposter syndrome or you know, that belief in self isn't
there, or our value is low, self-esteem is low, we still just show up. You know, we show up. And I, you
know, I think I've seen people show up and I'm like, “God, I have to do that.” Cause I get in my own
head. And I know that same thing when I show up, other people show up and it's like we're there. Right.
You just show up and the bureaucracy is the bureaucracy, it's gonna be there.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
When I'm getting pushback, not the funding or, “You can't do that program,” or you can't, you know, it's
like I always tell folks we've heard no so many times their life is here. No. Again, it's not gonna hurt us,
but we're still gonna show up, you know? And I think that we've had a lot of doors closed our faces or a
lot of denials for jobs or resources. And it happens with formerly incarcerated folks it happens and it's
gonna, it's gonna happen even more, but we're still gonna show up.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
And we're still gonna show that we can do the work. We're gonna do the work. And statistically thinking
or talking that's like all incarcerated people in the United States, 95% of people are coming home
someday. And that always is one of those driving things to say, like, coming home to what? Let's create
something so that when they do come home, there's resources in the community. There's resources in
academia, there's resources that're gonna help their mental health, their PTSD [Post Traumatic Stress
Disorder], their you know, and we have to, we have to build those really soft landings for folks to come
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home and have a fighting chance to make it in society. You know? And I think that we live within a
system that still, even though we see a lot of positivity and we're going in the right direction, there's still
a lot of barriers. There's still a lot of doubt. There's still an industrial complex in the prison that relies on
our labor, relies on our, the exploitation of who we are. There's still laws and policies and politicians that
say, “Well, we can create these laws and policies to continue funneling people into the prison system.” It
still exists. And it's-- I mean, we still have the thirteenth Amendment <laughs>, you know, we're still
combating just the thirteenth amendment alone, let alone all these local laws and policies that just flood
our jails and prisons.
We just show up. We continue to do the work, and we continue to role model. We continue to, to, you
know, I love watching people like you know, Frankie Guzman up in Oakland who's you know, a formerly
incarcerated lawyer who's a policy lawyer, you know James Binnall from Long Beach, he's a professor,
Dr. James Binnall, who-- he's a formerly incarcerated lawyer, he did his LSATs [Law School Admission
Test] in prison, and now he's a professor and he does a lot of policy work. And it's like folks like that;
they're inspiring. You know what I mean? They're inspiring. It's like, you know, we-- again, they show up.
I show up, they’re motivation for me. And I can just rattle off a bunch of names of people who are
formerly incarcerated who’re serious allies for this population. And they want to, they want to do, they
wanna do great work. Or they do great work. And it's just like that, that encourages me to continue
doing the best work I can.
Visintainer:
Yeah. It sounds like tenacity then is a really big ingredient to success?
Leyva:
Yes.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
Yeah.
Visintainer:
What are some other characteristics or expand upon that if you want, but I was just curious, like, what
are the characteristics that you feel are really important to build, uh, for folks to build when they're
getting out of prison?
Leyva:
I always tell folks this: I say, “Greatest education that you have is your own lived experience.” Right. That
we use every time we've had a door shut in our face, every time we've been denied something, every
time we've been at the lowest place in our life. Like those, that's the motivator to create change. That
right there should be single-handedly the thing we use to create change. So you know, our strength is
just who we are. You know, I've seen unfortunate-- some of the-- California Department of Corrections
is a hard place to live. Yeah. You know, there's everything from drugs and alcohol and violence and
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assault and denial of medical, mental health services, medical services, it's hard. And it's like that right
there though is probably one of the greatest teachers we have that builds our character up to be like, “I
don't wanna take no for an answer. No, I'm here. I'm gonna do something else.” Right. And I always tell
folks, it gives us a reason to fight, a reason to <unintelligible>. And obviously not talking physically, but
mentally, emotionally.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
Politics and, you know, getting involved with like, you know, they should build us up to this place where
we feel empowered to create change. We already have it. We've already been to the lowest places that
society can send us. Right. And I think that we can only go up from here if we stop colluding with the
system that's there. Right. We have to stop colluding with it.
Visintainer:
Yeah. What, what do you mean by that? Colluding with the system?
Leyva:
You know, we bump up against it. You know, it's just same thing if you-- when an individual, and I see
this happen, and it's disheartening when an individual loses a job or can't get a job and he or she knows
that, you know, the informal economy exists, like selling drugs or, you know, hustling for what they
need. I respect that. You gotta do what you have to do as a person, as a family person. But we get
denied jobs, get denied access to certain resources, and then our only, we can resort back to some drug
sales or some criminal activity. We're colluding with them. We're actually saying, “Well you know, you're
gonna call me bad or create this level where I can't succeed. I'm gonna do what I have to do.” And we go
back to colluding with the system that send us to jail or prison.
Stick with it. Stay within the long haul. We're always gonna get what we want. But, and the more we
collude with the system, the more we actually allow the system to say, “This is why we need laws and
policies. This is why crime rates are the way they are. This is—" And so it's like it's like we have to just
really try our best to not collude with that system but change that system. And as insiders, we can
change the prison system. We can change the laws around gang injunctions, mandatory minimums,
three strikes laws, and all these things that are created through laws and policies. Why can't we become
the politicians to change that?
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
Formerly incarcerated people can be politicians. You know, we can actually be [on] school boards, city
councils, county supervisors, all the way to the state level, all the way to the federal level. We can be
politicians and instead of colluding with this criminality as they used the word, you know, let's just bump
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up against the system and change the system. Make it work for all people. So it's fair and just and
equitable. And that's what we push. That's what I push, you know? And, you know, and I'm not alone.
There's a lot of beautiful people doing great work out there. Men and women, gay, straight, able,
disabled. There's a lot of formerly incarcerated people who are doing this work that, you know, we just,
yeah. We just put our best foot forward and keep walking. <laughs>
Visintainer:
I was curious if there was any particular like majors or disciplines that students that you mentor through
either Transitions or Project Rebound here if they tend to gravitate towards any specific majors,
disciplines in academia?
Leyva:
Yeah. The biggest one we see across the state, not just here at Cal State San Marcos, across the state, is
usually sociology and criminology, right? Because we want to, we come from that. We know that so well
and we do that. But also like human services, like counselors, drug and alcohol treatment counselors
MSWs [Master’s of Social Work], because we want to, we also wanna help, right? We're very
empathetic. Some of the majors they don't gravitate to, which I'm actually excited about at Cal State San
Marcos, it's usually like STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math] fields.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva: We do have four students here at Cal State San Marcos that are in STEM, which is probably the
most, because we don't gravitate to it. We gravitate towards how can we create change.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
So sociology, criminology, justice studies, MSW, counseling. Those are the main fields. You know, some
psychology ‘cause you do-- we're helpers. We want formerly incarcerated folks want to help out another
individual. My goal is to get people into political science and other fields to be like, “Let's go to
Washington.” You know what I mean? Let's get in those halls. Yeah. And you can do that with sociology
and stuff. But those are the main, those are the big disciplines or the big majors that people go into. And
that was mine, bachelor's degree in psychology. My master's degree in sociology. And my doctorate will
be in education. And that's all because I want to create, understand these systems so well that I could
create the change within 'em, right?
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
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And that's formerly incarcerated folks. I got a group of twenty-two formerly incarcerated students at
MiraCosta right now. And all of 'em say same thing. I want to help people. So I wanna do sociology. I
wanna become a counselor, I wanna do this, I wanna do that. And I'm like, “Where's my politicians at
though?” You know what I mean? Where's my <laughs>? Where's my—'cause you know, there's also,
they understand that, you know, some of 'em say they want to be nurses, but there's no access to
nursing if you're formally incarcerated. There's a lot of fields that uh-- actually not a whole lot. Nursing is
one. Education is another. ‘Cause a lot of times if you're formally incarcerated, you can't go back in the
high schools to teach, can't get your credentials if you're formerly incarcerated, which I think should
change. I think we would make great teachers, especially of high school students. Right.
Visintainer:
Yeah. I think there would be real value in, in having people who are formerly incarcerated in classrooms.
Leyva:
Yeah. And we see that too, because when I was in Santa Barbara, I was working in the high schools
teaching social and emotional intelligence and social justice work through a non-profit. And the high
schools over there saw my value. Out here, we could take Project Rebound students and other students
we work in, you know, continuation high schools and court, juvenile court community schools, and
those schools sees the value of formerly incarcerated students coming into their school, doing the
mentorship, doing all that stuff. And there is a lot of value in it, you know, and not just, I mean, you
know, we gravitate towards drug and alcohol treatment or counseling because we understand those
folks really well. We also understand marginal high school students and middle school students, they
say, “Let us in here” because we can actually really change the outcome for a lot of the students,
especially our Black and Brown students that get targeted in other places other than the schools; their
communities, even their homes. We can actually-- I feel like we can really do a lot of work in that area,
but until the policies around hiring formerly incarcerated folks to work in high schools, to work as
teachers, to work as nurses, caretakers… The other thing too is we're doing that work in prison. Nurses
in prison exist, but some of the main caretakers-- people doing like CNA [Certified Nursing Assistant]
work or LVN [Licensed Practical Nurse] work, they're inmates. They're, I don't really want to use the
word inmates anymore. They're incarcerated folks doing that type of work. They're caretaking for
elders, they’re caretaking for people with terminal illness. They're doing dentistry work. They're being,
you know, incarcerated folks are already doing that work. We, they allow us to do it there, but as soon
as we step out of the prison, “Oh, you're not allowed to do that work anymore.”
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
You know, and it's like, we can benefit. We have a big benefit to society if you allow us to do that work.
Right. Just like incarcerated firefighters, they're out here fighting some of the biggest fires. We can do it,
we can do it while we're in prison, but we come out and we can't join a fire station. And the laws, that's
the other thing too. That's another part of where laws have changed. Now formerly incarcerated
firefighters can get a job doing forestry fighting now. And that's, you know our next step is let us in the
firehouses in the cities, right?
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Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
So small policy changes, small changes are happening.
Visintainer:
And how does employment in prison happen?
Leyva:
Ah, that's a good question. You know, you go to prison and there's a couple ways. One if you're an
incarcerated folk like I was, I had to serve eighty-five percent of my sentence. So a lot of resources for
somebody already serving that much time. You kind of get put on the back burner. There's also a
population of incarcerated folks that go and do, they have to do fifty percent of the time. So they get
sentenced to ten years. They only do five. They have to earn that five years. So they put 'em to work
right away. And then also if you're, if you're lucky enough to just be like, I got certain skills. ‘Cause they
do, they run your resume. “What kind of work have you done? What kind of skills do you have?” And
they'll place you if there's jobs available, right? So it all really depends what skills you have, how much
time you have. So there's a few defining things that get work. But you know, when you go to prison and
you get a job, I was a landscaper in prison and it was a job I landed just because somebody was going
home and they made a recommendation saying, “Hey Martin should do this job,” right? So they hired
me right away and it was… The pay scale. I think the pay scale recently changed. So they're hiring certain
people with certain jobs that actually is a decent wage. But I was making thirteen cents an hour in
prison.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
And because they had restitution, they were taking fifty-five percent of my thirteen cents to pay back
restitution. And so at the end of a month, you get paid once a month. maybe able to buy maybe a jar
coffee, <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
Right. Jar of coffee, a couple soups and not a whole lot coming from there, right?
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
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Leyva:
So and there's still a lot of prisons that are still paying their people cause they're still paying folks.
Pennies, pennies on the dollar, you know.
Visintainer:
And is that based out of like some sort of private company using labor?
Leyva:
Um.
Visintainer:
Why is there, uh, why is there such a huge disparity between the wages that somebody's being paid
when they're incarcerated and somebody that's not incarcerated doing the same work?
Leyva:
It's just the exploitation of labor, right?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
Depending on what you're doing inside prison, what prison, what industry is contracted with the prison
because certain, you know, IBM and Levi jeans and, you know, no longer Victoria's Secret, but there's a
lot of companies that contract with the prison industry for cheap labor. Right? So it just depends on
those contracts. And that's the rise of mass incarceration though, right? You can actually have
companies and corporations that on Wall Street, stock market, made in America. You know, you be
careful. Chevron and Exxon, they all have a lot of products made in prison. There’re so many companies
that use prison labor cause it's cheap and they can say that their product is being made in the USA right?
And it sucks. Even like the federal prison system for instance, they have a corporation called UNICOR
[Federal Prison Industries] and they make all like military flak jackets and military gear. And yes, they're
made in the USA but they're made by cheap labor, right?
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
And again, given that we're doing the labor in prison, we're getting the skills, much needed skills, but it
doesn't equate to jobs as soon as we leave prison. And I think that's where, you know, I'm glad to be
working while I'm in prison, keeping our minds busy staying active, which is good. But you know, you've
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got the private prison industry, it's, you know, you got an entire industry that's on Wall Street. People
can actually put money in the stock market and just relies on the exploitation of people.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
It's kind of a gross system that we have <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
You know, and I've seen the labor, you know, everything from making our license plates to maybe a lot
of this furniture that's actually here was built in prison. Our shoes, our clothing items, everything that
we have is actually built in prison. So it's like there's an entire industry that relies on our labor, you
know? There's another thing: a lot of people don't really understand that, you know? They think that
jobs went overseas. Yes. Jobs went over overseas for sure, but jobs also went into the prison system.
Jobs that could have been for a lot of people. So we can't blame fully overseas. We blame our prison
system and the allowance of written contracts to have this labor be done there. You know? And a lot of
people are just, they don't… They're just not well informed about what's really going on. Right. And so
yeah. One, I'm glad that was working ‘cause I would drive myself nuts if I wasn't. But it's also like, you
know, you’re completely exploiting, you know, my labor.
Visintainer:
Yeah. Yeah. When you were a landscaper, excuse me. So you were landscaping like outside of the
prison?
Leyva:
No, it was on the inside. It was on the inside, Yeah. And, you know, it was sure around some of the
offices, never was allowed off the grounds in the prison system. But the aesthetics of the prison was
important for the face. Right. It has to look good on the outside. The inside was really quite run down,
but the outside, the grass was cut nicely. The hedges were trimmed, the flowers were growing on the
outside. And that's what you're doing. And trust me, I really enjoyed it ‘cause I like being in the sun. I
love gardening. I love plants. I love the work.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
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But, you know, yeah, it was-- I was happy to do the work. I wasn't, you know, especially then I was like,
“Oh, I'm cool with this job. I like these thirteen cents an hour,” because I was misinformed. I was
uneducated. Soon as I came home, and I knew that there was like some exploitation happening,
[unclear] understand it, you know, on the outside I'd be getting paid ten dollars an hour, fifteen dollars
an hour, whatever I was doing on the outside. And in here it sucks to get thirteen cents an hour or
whatever. But now that I'm in academe, I'm educated, I understand these, how the system allows for
this to happen with the thirteenth amendment and all these laws and policies and how I really honestly
feel like even in education, how I was targeted as a Brown male, it all makes sense to me when I see the
rise of the prison system, right?
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
At one point, crime rate, crime rates are kind of going up right now, but for the longest time, crime rates
were dropping. Were on a steady decline, but our prison system kept growing. And it took education for
me to really understand what is happening with laws and policy, what is happening with contracts in the
prison system, what is happening with our politicians who are, you know, law and order issue. You
know, “We need to get crime under control!” I'm like, crime rates are dropping though. Why is our
prison population 2.3 million people in the United States if crime rates are dropping now, Covid and
everything else. Yeah. Crime rates are, are rising, but they're not at a dangerous level. Right. Where our
prison system stays at the same amount of people. You know, we can, I love research <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
I love research, right?
Visintainer:
Yeah. And I don't know if this is necessarily a question, but then there's also, you know, I've been seeing
like people talking about New York, the crime rates are not actually rising, but there's this narrative that
the crime rates in the city are rising. So you have like Adams, the mayor, you know, running on this like
tough on crime cop platform and getting elected. And so, I don't know, I don't know what my question
is, but I think there's something there too with, with media narratives being-Leyva:
Oh, yeah. I mean that's huge for us. And it's also the time of the year too, right? With, with elections
coming up, obviously gonna be this focus on crime and crime in America and all these things. And
they're gonna, it's easy for politicians and media to be like, “Well, this crime happened in Chicago, this
crime happened in New York, and they could be like all people, right?” It's like, no, that was an incident.
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Right? And it's gonna happen at this time of the year during elections, midterm elections presidential
elections. It's gonna, you're gonna hear about how horrible we are, right? And as soon as the elections
stop, you'll go, we'll go focus on something else, Right? Monkey Pox or something else, right?
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
It's always gonna be something to focus on. But right now, crime rates are the thing because of this
media. And that's the interesting thing is how we always, I always call this the sandwich effect, right?
When you take media and they'll start the conversation with “murderers this, murderers that,” and then
they'll have like this middle part of like low-level crimes and criminals, and which is a huge bulk of the
percentage of people in prison are crimes that are just like, you know, stealing or property crimes or
something that's not dangerous, but it is a crime. So you start off with murderers and murderers and all
these violent crimes, which is a very small percentage. And then you talk about this big section of people
who are low level crimes and petty criminals, whatever they call 'em. It's a huge percentage of our
prison system. And then you end with like rapists and child molesters, people who are misinformed
through our media, they hear murderers and then something else, and then they'll end with like
murders and rapists, and that's where they lump everybody up. But our major prison population is really
people that are like systematically inundated with inequality, lack of access to jobs, lack of access to
resources like medical, and they commit crimes that are like informal economies. They're like, you know,
petty thief or selling drugs or, you know, something-- that's the bulk of our prison system.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
But media more entrepreneurship says murderers, killers and violent crime, and then they end with
murder or rapists and child molesters. And that's a very small percentage of our prison population. You
know? And but when you, when you start with that and end with this? We're all bad people. Right. And
it's not… Yeah, I'm so critical about media <laughs>, you know?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva: ‘Cause they, they strategically figured out how to get the vote. You know? And I'm not talking
about, I'm not voting for one. It's like, you know, liberal Democrats are one way and conservative
Republicans are another. And I kind of feel like, no, there's a lot of in between that we're ignoring you
know? There's a lot of great politicians or people who are just silenced by these two big conglomerates.
Right. And they're supported by these big media corporations. And they're all-- I would say they're all in
it together. Let's just be very critical about them. That's my job as a citizen, as an educator, is let's just be
critical about our government, the systems that run our government, the corporations that run our
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government. Because if it isn't about the prison system, it's also about lack of education for people. It's
also about lack of medical care. It's a lack of good livable wages. You know what I mean? There's so
much more if we just remove the prison system, there's so much more to focus on. We just need to be
critical about the entire system we're living in.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
I think Covid taught me that because we breathe the same air, we should be talking about the same
things. Right? <laughs> One person gets sick. We should all think about, we all can get sick too, right?
And I think there's an illness with the prison system. It impacts us all. Your tax dollars, my tax dollars. I
think there's forty-five percent of people in the United States who have a loved one in prison or who
know somebody's been locked up. Some major portion of our population who know somebody's
impacted by the prison system. We should all be focusing on it together. Right?
Visintainer:
Yeah. And we're the largest carcell-. Sorry, I didn't have trouble with this word.
Leyva:
Carceral.
Visintainer:
Carceral, Thank you.
Leyva:
Yeah. <Laughs>
Visintainer:
Carceral country on earth, aren't we?
Leyva:
Mm-hmm.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
I always say it's a, you know, United States is five percent of the world's population, but twenty-five
percent of the world's prison population. It's pretty wild.
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Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
You know, and you think, like, you know, China and other countries are bigger than ours, but they, they
have less prison system. Right. And it's again, we can get into the exploitation of labor. But-Visintainer:
Yeah. And I do want to talk about systems with you, but could we shift for a little bit and talk a little bit
about kind of your journey to where you got and then I want to follow up with systems. I got some kind
of more big picture questions for you. So I just wanted to ask, where did you grow up?
Leyva:
Born and raised in Santa Barbara [California]. I always have to name my neighborhood. The west side of
Santa Barbara is my home. I love that place.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
Don't want to ever want to move back, but I love that place. <laughs>
Visintainer:
Yeah. What do you love about it?
Leyva:
It's just a great little community. It's beautiful beaches, mountains family still there. A lot of history
there. When I go back, just like cruising certain neighborhoods, certain streets. It's just a lot of-- it's just
a beautiful place.
Visintainer:
Yeah. What did in your childhood, what did your community look like?
Leyva:
It's interesting you ask that question because growing up my community was just like, it's a beautiful
community. A lot of good little restaurants, a lot of good neighbors, a lot of good food, a lot of good
communities. But you don't know what you don't know, right? But it was a lot of poverty, a lot of crime,
a lot of sadness, a lot of hardships. But you don't really see that when you're in the middle of it. Right.
You don't really ever, you don't ever really critique it when you're like, this is my life. Right. So it was,
there was a lot of that and a lot of-- there's a lot of beautiful community built around this ugly thing, you
know what I mean? Like the crime and the police and, you know, the lack of schools. But if you don't
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know what it is, you just, and that's all you know, and you're accepted, right? Yeah. It is beautiful. My
family, my mom, my two sisters, and, you know, cousins and community members-- its good people all
around.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm. What were some of the gathering places?
Leyva:
The gathering places in my community growing up? The home is always one. That's the best one. But,
you know, our, you know, little parks. And for me, I like this question actually, the gathering places. I
don't know why the… places like Oak Park and Alameda Park, these places are ringing a bell, but also the
corners. Right. thinking one in particular. San Andres and Micheltorena Street, like those were the
gathering spots. Those are like—Bath and Ortega Street. You just see the little cornerstore friends and
family gathered there, you know? Yeah. Starting trouble or laughing or yelling at each other or
something. But yeah, those are-- I like that question.
Visintainer:
Yeah. What did Oak Park look like?
Leyva:
Was Oak Park and Ortega Park were the two main parks and I’m thinking Oak Park was just that a lot of
oak trees, a lot of barbecue pits what they would call the kiddie pool. Right. The pool that's only like a
foot deep and the playground. And on weekends there was the smell of barbecue and beer <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Visintainer:
You know, and Ortega Park is still to this day, one of the most beautiful places there in Santa Barbara
because there's same thing, the swimming pool, the playground, the basketball courts, the soccer field,
and it's just a block wide. It's not even that big of a park. But there's murals, right? That's like kind of
Santa Barbara's own Chicano Park. It's just one little area. Okay. But there's murals on the wall and
there's growing up I didn't see the, the crime that was happening, the drug you started, I didn't see that
stuff because that's just, you're in the mix, right? You're in the, that's just what happens there. Now I
can see it differently through different spectacles, but yeah, it was just the same thing. The smell of
barbecue and beer and laughing and music, you know what I mean?
Visintainer:
Did you have a favorite mural or do you have a favorite mural?
Leyva:
God, I wish I could show you the picture of it. Yes. There's like this Aztec warrior mural and it was just
like this side view. A guy named Manuel Unzueta is the muralist and he's from Santa Barbara. He did a
lot of the murals there. But yeah, it was like this Aztec god kind of person. And back then I wasn't really
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like really into the history yet as I am now, but I remember going back to Ortega Park after being
educated after coming home from prison and be like this, like now there's like a connection, not only
that's my childhood, but also like academically thinking like I understand the history of where we come
from, right? Yeah. So but also I love bright colors and love like images, so yeah. That was, that was one
that always stood out.
Visintainer:
You talked about barbecue a couple times. What kind of barbecue? What did folks like to barbecue?
Leyva:
Oh, you know, tri-tip and chicken! Santa Barbara, it was Santa Maria nearby. Santa Maria is the
birthplace of tri-tip. And so this tri-tip and chicken and corn wrapped in foil, <laughs> put on the
barbecue pit. And that was, that was the thing.
Visintainer:
That sounds good.
Leyva:
Yeah. <laughs>
Visintainer:
Who were your childhood role models?
Leyva:
Um. My childhood role models. Quote unquote the “bad guys.” I didn't see 'em as bad guys, you know?
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
It's funny because uh, just had this conversation earlier today, but you know, family members, like my
uncles, you know, they were the cool guys who dressed nice, who got the handshakes, who got the
respect in the neighborhood. And again, growing up in that, you don't see or think about the negativity
that's going on. But they were my role models because they were the ones who like would give me a
hug and tell me they loved me or tell me they see me or buy me a coke or an ice cream. Right? And you
look up to that, right? Not understanding that the money that they used to buy that stuff for people in
the neighborhood, like little kids in the neighborhood also came from drug sales. You don't see that, or
nor do you even think about that. You just know that these role models were like the men who were,
you know, the men who actually recognized me and saw me. The women who would always be like,
“Are you doing your homework?” And, you know, and the women weren't particularly like into a
positive lifestyle either, but they would use terms like mijo or mi rey, right? “My little king.” And they
would always say, you know, go to school and do good. And the kid, the men would be like, “Don't get
into trouble.” You know what I mean? You know, but if you got in trouble, they'd be like, “Good job.”
You know what I mean? <laughter> So it’s like one on one hand, don't get in trouble. Second hand like,
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alright, good job! You know what I mean? So yeah. They were, they were the ones that actually saw us
for who we were. Right. And I love having that experience in life and now being able to see it from a
different vantage point. Right.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
They were just doing the best they can with what they had. Right. And that they had a-- you know, my
mom and my stepdad and my uncles and all the other men and women in the neighborhood giving me
the best they can with their own unresolved trauma. Right. That they did the best they can and that
their life was better than what they had when they were kids. And that my life was better than they had
it. And that my generation after me, my kids have it better than what I had it. And that's the trajectory
of life right, now that I'm able to see it from a vantage point. Absolutely. Love those role models. You
know, even though now I'm like, “Ah, you were doing some shady stuff, but I love you for it.” You know
what I mean? So, Yeah.
Visintainer:
What did your stepdad and your mom do? Did they do for a living?
Leyva:
My mom main job was house cleaning, cleaning hotel rooms or cleaning houses or factory work. And my
stepdad was a-- he worked in a nursery and a, he worked in a nursery taking care of plants and also a
mechanic at the nursery. That was their main industry.
You know, I was, I did the first gen talk today and that was interesting. I'm a first-generation college
student. College, school wasn't that important to my family. Work was, you know, they valued work
over education. You know and working hard too. I think I got my work ethic from my mom. My mom
sometimes especially after my stepdad left, would work, guaranteed two jobs and sometimes if she
could three jobs, which wasn't the best for my upbringing pertaining to like a mom I could come home
to and do homework with. I never grew up with that. Right? So, you know, I left high school in ninth
grade, so prior to going to prison and getting my high school diploma in prison, I was, had a ninth-grade
education. And so that's what I felt like when I entered these spaces. I'm like, I've a ninth-grade
education ‘cause I don't remember my high school diploma. But, you know, thinking about my mom, I
mean, that was, you know, she was, she's a hard worker. She was a hard worker. She retired early
because she worked so hard. Right. Medically retired. But yeah, it was uh… good work ethic I'll tell that.
Show up to work and were just sick or not, show up <laughs>. I'm like-- When I'm sick. But she's like,
“No, you gotta go to work.” I'm like, all right. Going to work sick. But going.
Visintainer:
Yeah. We come back to tenacity then.
Leyva:
Yeah. <laughs>
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Visintainer:
Yeah. Can you tell me about the first time that you got in legal trouble?
Leyva:
Yeah. About fifteen [years old]. I mean, kind of a funny story, but you know, I got in trouble for stealing
mopeds. I remember going to court for it and like, “Why are you stealing mopeds?” Or, you know, they
didn't ask the question. I just wanted to ride a moped. I didn’t to sell it or try to make money. I was just
like, I learned how to hot wire a moped.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
And as soon as I did that, every time I saw a little Honda Spree, I pop the top, pop the front cover off and
pull the wire and it'd just kick right over. And it was just fun. And you know, I got in trouble for having, I
think like three Honda Sprees in my backyard, you know, and got popped and got in trouble and, you
know, I'm, you know, committing crimes you know.
Visintainer:
And how did you learn how to hot wire a moped?
Leyva:
Once again, observational learning. Yeah. I think I think there's this like misunderstanding how people
commit crimes and yeah. Certain people will teach you how to do certain things, but for a majority of
people in prison, we just learned by observation. You know, I saw this older guy in my neighborhood and
I don't even remember. He's like, “I gotta go!” And he went up to this Honda Spree, he did like the little
move. And he just took a little knife out of his pocket and popped it and I saw him take the wires out
and jumped on it and kick started it. And just hit the handlebars cause the handlebars had the little lock
on it. The lock broke real easy. And he just took off. You know, I was like, “I'm gonna try that.”
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
You know, and then I saw a Honda Spree and I know stealing ain't nice. I know it's wrong, but at the time
you're like, that was so cool. How did you do that?
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
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Leyva:
I saw a Honda Spree downtown one day and I think it took me a little longer <laughs> to get it going, but
as soon as I got it going, there was a rush. Right. And again, I'm not saying it was okay cause it's not. But
that rush felt good.
Visintaienr:
Yeah.
Leyva:
You know, and I saw him, I'm like, “Ah, where'd you get that little, where'd you get that little Honda?”
I'm like, “I took it.” He's like, “Oh, let me take it.” And he took it from me. Right. So it's like when you
steal a bike in the neighborhood, it becomes a neighborhood bike. Everybody's using the same stolen
bike. Right. And yeah. It's just a thing to do right? Through observations. Even like I talk about my
addiction cause I was addicted to substances and alcohol. And I say it openly with students. I was
addicted to heroin for a long time, and it wasn't like somebody taught me how to do it. It wasn’t… You
weren't literally taught how to do it. You just see it happening. And when you see it happening, it just
becomes, “I know how to do that,” because you saw somebody else how to unfortunately use drugs,
whether intravenously or not, you just learn it by watching. And I think that's how we learn how to say
the things we say, dress how we dress, act like we act, respond, how we respond, whether you know,
violence was never taught to me, but it's something I grew up watching. Right. I remember everything
from like learning how to express sadness. I remember my stepdad would be like mad, like sad and then
he would just like hit the door with his hand. And when you're a little kid and you're watching that or
he'd say like, I'm so mad. And then he hit something. If I'm mad too, I gotta hit something. Right. And it's
everything with committing crimes to expressing feelings and emotions. It's all observational.
Visintainer:
Yeah. So, is there an analog to the work you do now? Providing-Leyva:
Yeah.
Visintainer:
Providing, modeling for people that are learning?
Leyva:
Yeah. Emotional intelligence and emotional management. When we feel something, you know, it's me.
I've been clean and sober nineteen years and when my mom died four years ago, because I trained my
mind that when I feel a big emotion, my mind goes automatically to the reaction, which is the drug use
the violence or whatever. Even though my mind thought about it, I've taught myself that there's no
visceral reaction. My biological response doesn't have to, I don't have to do these things. I don't have to
act out in these ways. And so when I work with individuals around emotional management and
understanding that we have no control over our emotions, you're gonna feel something, you're gonna
feel it! But how we respond to it, the emotional management part is how we should focus on.
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Mindfulness, meditation, taking a deep breath, taking a step back. I always say, “Pretend you're the
outsider looking in.” Take a step back and take a look at what is gonna hap-- what you know is gonna
happen or what you feel is gonna happen and respond from that place rather than inside of it. And I'm
also big on dismantling patriarchy ‘cause I feel like patriarchy is the number one pusher of so many
systemic issues of oppression. Even the war in Ukraine is patriarchy. Right. Like patriarchy is very
dangerous. And as somebody who is raised in it and colluded with it, they've created it so well… I want
my kids to have a good understanding of who their father is. Not in that violent state, but in this healed
or healing individual who can talk about feelings and emotions, who can allow myself to cry without
feeling something I couldn't, I could wear a pink shirt and pink socks without somebody saying
something to me because I'm very comfortable with who I am.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
And I think that working with individuals that becomes my educational piece, is we have to really learn
who we are and how we respond. Because how we respond sometimes takes us to the places we are,
the jails and the prisons, our addictions, our own self harm, our own self destruction. I love these places,
these places. And education has given me this understanding of who society constructs me to be versus
who I want to be. And a lot of times we follow the construction because they make it glorious or cool or
like, this is all I have. It's not all we have, we're meant to be other people. We're meant to be who we
really are. Empathetically, empathetic, caring, understanding, loving, warm, you know. So yeah. I teach a
lot of emotional intelligence to our students. ‘Cause I think we need to be there for our families and our
communities. And we can't do that if we're angry or mad or not-- being angry or mad is okay. But how
we respond to it is different. Right. We shouldn't have to respond in negative ways, you know? And so
far so good. I've been doing this work for a long time. I see a lot of change. So, you know.
Visintainer:
That is beautiful statement. Thank you. Um, I don't know, I think a lot about, you know, growing up in
patriarchy and masculinity and how harmful, like, I didn't even know how harmful it was, you know?
Leyva:
Yeah.
Visintainer:
And yeah, I don't know. I'm glad you're doing the work at dismantling it, I guess is all I have to say about
it.
Leyva:
<laughs> Yeah. No, it's an uphill battle sometimes, right?
Visintainer:
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Yeah.
Leyva:
But I always say, you know what, in football they always say it's a ten-yard fight. Just go ten yards and
start again. Go ten yards, start again. And but I feel it's an obligation too, it's an obligation. And I want
to, if there's one way to shut down the prison system is really help people stop going.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
You know. That's the goal.
Visintainer:
Yeah. So, you had three mopeds in your backyard. So how did you, how did you get caught?
Leyva:
Just being reckless, right. Driving without, you know, back then you didn't need a helmet. But you know,
driving through my neighborhood and just crossing stop signs and cops, you know, or like, I remember
one time I was driving. And if you remember the Honda Sprees, they had like this little section where
you put your little feet right? And I was driving and had one guy standing right in front of me. So I was
leaning to the side to look where I was going. And then I had another friend of mine sitting behind me.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
So, three people on a small Honda Spree, cop saw us and said, pull ‘em over. Right. And as soon as I
stopped, my two friends just took off. And I'm like, “Well, here I am.” Right. And so obviously the cop
could see the wires on hanging on the side and, you know, it's so funny to think back at the little things I
used to do and be like, how did I think I can get away with this stuff? You know? And that's how you got
caught. Just being reckless and I guess funny at the same time. But, you know, the, the consequence
isn't something to laugh at, right. <Laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
You know. So--
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Visintainer:
Did you go to juvenile detention?
Leyva:
Went to juvenile detention. Juvenile court. Mom was always working. So my sister, remember my sister
going to court with me, they were both older than me. Back then it really was a slap on the wrist, a little
juvenile detention you know, a little probation check-in here and there. You know, the more I got in
trouble... I dunno life moved really fast ‘cause actually, you know, I'm eighteen and going in and out the
county jail again for, you know, driving cars without licenses for DUIs [Driving Under the Influence], for
stolen-- possession of stolen property. Not like, and not saying that DUIs is not a big deal, it's a huge deal
But you know, nothing really big or major.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Levya:
Right. No violence. And sure there was violence happening, it just never got caught doing it. Right? And I
always tell folks like, I've been really lucky not to go away for the crimes that I have committed. Not to
say I should have gotten away with it, but I did. And it's like, also it's another fuel that adds, it's more
fuel to be like, “I need to do this work because I know that there's a lot of people doing things they wish
they weren't doing and they're just not getting caught for it.” It's like, let's give them another avenue to
go down. You know? So but I think my life led to the point where, you know, I got in trouble for selling
guns or having, you know, illegal guns and, you know, this stuff was again, all just part of a lifestyle that I
was living that, we don't critique it. We're just in the middle of it. All the way to my last, my last prison
term which was a robbery, you know, walked into a place and demanded some money, not even
demanded it. Just say, “Hey, I need some money.” I knew, I actually knew I would get caught on my last
crime. I knew I would get caught. I didn't run, didn't try to pretend it wouldn't happen. Committed a
robbery in 2004 and knew I would get in trouble. And I think it was my, I think it was my cry for help
because I was so embedded within my addiction and-- no, I felt like I didn't have another way out. I
didn't know how to ask for help.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
And so when I think about my crimes as a juvenile, just the trajectory of how just, you know, petty
crimes to maybe not so petty crimes, but gun sales to more violations of probation to led to, you know,
a robbery that wasn't an armed property, I didn't have a knife or gun. But still it was a pretty significant
robbery. I think that that time going to prison was my cry for help. You know, I just didn't want to do
drugs and alcohol or live this life where I just felt really like in a sense like I wanted to die. Right. I talk to
a lot of folks who were formerly incarcerated who say, you know, “I've reached that point where I didn't
know what else to do. I'd rather go to prison than have to deal with the struggle out here, the suffering
that happens out here.” And I think our prison is full of individuals who feel like they had no other
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option. You know, because a lot of times when we grow up in this very patriarchal environment,
especially for men to say, “I'm sad, I need help. I wanna change, but I don't know how,” because that's a
sign of weakness to say like, “I feel emotional.” And for other men or even women to say, oh, they use
these negative connotations. Like stop being-- you know, they relate it to words that are used for
women and they just, we don't wanna feel that. So what do we do? Go out, commit a crime, go to
prison. And I know I've had conversations with other men in prison and be like, “I just, I'd rather be here
than out there.”
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
You know, I know men who've gone… who are in prison and they, their date, their release date's coming
up and they automatically like go after another inmate or they go after a guard and they commit
another crime so they can stay longer. I never understood that when I was in prison and then I come
home and I start doing this work and I'm like this place is harsh on us.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
You know, and there was even a time when I first left prison where I felt like [unclear] I can't get a job. I
keep losing this job. You know, I'm sleeping on my sister's couch. You know, my daughter wants to hang
out but I don't have money in my pocket. I was like, “Fuck I'd rather be back in prison than have to deal
with this stuff.” Right. And I, you know, that was me in 2007 and that's the individual I could talk to right
now. Who just got out. It's like. It's easier to live in prison than it is there. You know, you got strict rules
and boundaries. But we understand that life. And when I committed my crime in 2004 and I committed
the robbery, that was a cry for help. And I'll never say that prison saved my life because it didn't. But it
gave me an understanding. Finally I was ready to do the work. You know, something happened all of a
sudden where I'm like, I get out and I'm gonna try my best to stay out and I'm gonna be humble. And,
you know, if I turned away a lot of friends when I came home from prison because as soon as I got out
my neighborhood was like, “Hey, you want to hang out? You wanna do some—Let’s go partying!” For
me to say no to the people that I've never said no to was the hardest thing. Right. And that was me
facing patriarchy right on. I had a friend when I came home from prison, literally the day after, I hadn't
heard from him the entire time I was a prison. He offered me a thousand dollars and an ounce of, of
methamphetamines. Right. This was his way to show love his way. He wasn't trying to get me in trouble.
He wasn't trying to set me up. But this is my understanding of this is how we take care of each other.
And sure. As he's standing in front of me, he's offering me this. “You know, it's just to help you get back
on your feet,” is what he said to me. And for me to say no in that moment, I knew that I was defying an
entire system that was set up for me. ‘Cause he looked at me and he is like, “Okay, okay. Like, that's kind
of weird.” You don't, you don't say no to this in this neighborhood. You don't say no in this culture. You
don't say-- you don't deny this offering. But I denied it. And when I denied it, I defied the system that I
knew well.
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Visintainer:
And did that, did that sever that relationship?
Leyva:
It did. I've not talked to the guy ever since. This is fifteen years ago.
Visintainer:
Do you mourn those relationships that are gone?
Leyva:
I think there's an emotional and mental and in a way a spiritual transition that needed to happen. Yeah.
Because, you know, I mean these just like-- I took care of them. They took care of me. On the outside.
They didn't care for me when I was in prison. That's usually what happens. But I knew that once I denied
that, if I needed help, he was gonna deny me. Right. Or there needed to be a reckoning of that. And by
not hearing from him anymore, I knew that okay, my life. Yeah. You defied this thing and I kind of felt
like, okay, my circle all of a sudden got real small.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
Right. And I just shared today in my talk today, that the more healing one does, the more healing I did,
the more work I did on myself, the smaller and smaller my circle gets. Right. Some people just will not
accept you anymore unless you're doing what they're doing. As long as they feel like you need them and
they need you because misery is old—the saying misery loves company, right? They don't know a lot of
people in my community, a lot of people in other areas, they don't know what to do with healed or
healing people. Right. And my circle got real, my circle's small to this day, my circle is real small and I
think now I prefer it that way.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
You know, I feel safer. I feel more included. I seem more like it's easier for me to ask for help. It's easier
for me to, to give help. Right. Because a lot of times when you're in the mix of misery, you're carrying
the burdens of that too. And I still, I carry a lot of burdens on me ‘cause I got people coming home from
prison every single day. People coming home from jail every single day. People relapsing and reaching
out. I need help. I need a rehab, or I need a detox or I need something and, and to be of service rather
than, you know, to be part of the solution rather than being a part of the problem. It's a, it is a heavy
load to carry, but it's a lot lighter than carrying the load of my neighborhood when I denied that guy, my
homeboy. I can't, I appreciate you, I love you and thank you for this offer, but I can't accept it. That all of
a sudden put, you know, Martin-- the rumors started, Martin is oh, he must have snitched or he must
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have done this or he must have done that. Or you know, all of a sudden there's speculation about who I
am versus they can't just accept the fact that I want to change my life. Right.
But yeah, it's that's a struggle that a lot of incarcerated people are thinking about when they're coming
home. And a lot of formerly incarcerated are faced with when they walk outside the door. And they
wanna change. You know? And this is why programs like the in the community college or the university
are so important because we give people that visibility and understanding that there's nothing wrong
with you. And I don't even wanna say there's something wrong with my community because it's a
culture that's there, right? But we don't have to partake in that culture anymore. That I can still be me. I
can still be aesthetically who I am. I can still understand that. And I don't have to code switch if I don't
want to. But again, I don't have to feed into that, you know? And so yeah. We went from my first crime
to this <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
But it's all, it's all really interconnected because I think that people are committing crimes because we
don't know what else to do with ourselves and we don't know how to ask for help and we don't know
how to-- We're being denied resources or jobs and so we commit crimes. And you know, sometimes I
remember getting paychecks, you know, I was doing construction for a while and I look at my paycheck
and, you know, I just had my first daughter was born. I was like, this isn't enough money to pay for rent
and food and all this stuff. So I'd go out and I'd sell little drugs and do a little this and all of a sudden I
had a little extra money. Not like I was selling to try to get rich. I was selling to try to keep the lights on
or try to, I want to provide. One of my daughters wanted, oh, this little bike is cool, my paycheck ain't
enough, but you know, I could sell a little bit of this and then go get that bike. You know what I mean? It
makes me feel-- I know it's not the right thing to do. I know now, but at the time it's like the joy of
seeing my daughter have something.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
The joy of seeing a family around Christmas and Christmas presents, knowing that it's gonna put a smile
on their faces. You think I'm really caring about the feeling I had about selling drugs to get that money.
Not, you know, and it's you know, could I do it now? Absolutely not. Right. ‘Cause I know there's harm
being created, but yeah.
Visintainer:
That must have, that must be like a really difficult part of the journey going home and realizing, I guess is
realizing that a home is not exactly the home that you're… it's not the same place that it was before you
went to, I guess.
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Leyva:
Yeah.
Visintainer:
Or it is but you're not the same.
Leyva:
You're not the same. No, it's hard because it depends how we define home. Right? My home with my
sisters and my mom, she unfortunately passed away four years ago. Home changed when she, when she
died, right?
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
Home changed when I decided to stop being the identified patient, Right. Because in my home,
everybody's worried about Martin. Everybody's worried about, he's in jail, he's on drugs, he's doing this,
he's doing that. I was the identified patient. And when I stopped being the identified patient in my
family, my family didn't know what to do with me, let alone my community. You know, my friends
growing up, like all of a sudden he's different. He's-- you know there's a loss there, right? But also now
looking at home, whether it's the family or the community, now that I can see home as a different thing,
I can help create a better home for those around me. Right. Access to, oh, let me help you with your job
resume so you can get a better job. Let me help you get into college. Whether it's a welding certification
or a HVAC certification, a job that'll get you a better pay. Right. And you can have a record and still do
this work. Like, understanding this is like now I can actually help mold a new home for people, including
my home. ‘Cause my neighborhood in Santa Barbara is still my home. I live in San Marcos in a little
neighborhood. That's considered my home too because it mirrors the same neighborhood I grew up in.
Escondido, Ocean-- certain parts of Ocean[side], like these places around here. The struggle of my
neighborhood is the struggle of these neighborhoods. They're not different. So I get to define and create
what home is. Right. And I hope that makes sense. ‘Cause it to me it's like, I think that's an obligation I
feel like I have. And I always tell formerly incarcerated folks that we have an obligation to create the
change that we didn't have. Be the mentors we didn't have be the fathers, we didn't have be the uncles
and the brothers and everything that we didn't have or the mothers or the sisters. You know what I
mean? This is-- gender's important, but we get to define home now. Hopefully better. Right. It's a
matter of whether the people around us want to accept it or not. <laughs> Yeah. You know what I
mean? So.
Visintainer:
The, the last time that you went into prison, did you know when you were in prison last time that you
weren't going back? Or was that something that you realized afterwards?
Leyva:
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You wanna hear something pretty wild? I still don't know if I'm going back. Cause I'm not the individual
that says I'm never going back to prison.
Visintainer:
Gotcha.
Leyva:
I'm not the individual who says I'm never gonna drink or use again. I just know that right now, today, I'm
not gonna go back and I'm not gonna drink. I'm not gonna use tomorrow. I can't predict, I can't predict
two days from now.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
And so I live my life that way. Right. But I knew-- This is a whole conversation itself. I didn't know, I knew
when I was in prison, I was like, you know, this is, I know what rules to follow. I know what rules to
adhere to. I know what rules to, to press. Right. I knew how to discipline somebody if they crossed the
rule or broke a rule. That was a, is a easy life for me. I think what was, I think what happened -- actually,
I don't think -- I know what happened is I met a group of men this time in prison that I was listening to.
These men who were like talking to me about feelings and emotions. They were talking to me about
spirituality and the sweat lodge and praying. They were talking to me about critical pedagogy, like mass
incarceration and the war on drugs and gang injunctions. And I was like, “What the hell are you talking
about?” These are not words that I know.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
Right. And then they would give me books to read and they would like I remember after again-- I
remember asking if I can go to college and the prison counselor was like, no, because you have a write
up. I don't even know why I was asking for college. I got a high school diploma. I was like, I just wanted
to-- I knew other people were doing college on their bunks right. From their cells. And they denied me
college right away. But I still got educated in there because I read Pedagogy of the Oppressed for the
first time in prison. I read My Life Is a Sun Dance by Leonard Peltier. I read Fanon, Marx and Lennon and I
read all these books in prison. I had no idea what they meant. But these men were trying to critically
teach me in the belly of the beast, mass incarceration. We build these buildings, we create the labor
force and all this stuff. And I was back then, knowing what I know now, right this second, back then I was
like, “What the hell are you talking about?” But I was still reading it. I was still listening. I was still paying
attention. And when I entered college for the first time, and I'm sitting there and in sociology, they're
talking, well, mass incarceration, these laws and policies and all of a sudden I'm thinking about Mitch
and Joe and Squeaks these men who already put these language in my head. And I was like, this is why I
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gotta be critical. Right. And it all made sense. And I believe in the universe. It was the universe put that
stuff in front of me. Even if it made no sense, it made sense later. Right.
How did we even get here? <Laughter> But there, there is, right? I think this is super important because
it's like we become, I knew I didn't know that I would never go back to prison. I still don't know. I didn't
know that. I all I knew is that when I left prison, I didn't want to go back. How I was gonna do it? I don't
know. But I also knew-- one advice my uncle gave me, who also I learned through observation about
drug use and violence. My uncle told me a long time ago, I don’t even know, I mean thirty years ago, he
told me, “When you get to prison,” ‘cause it was a matter of if it was a matter of when or, “When you
get locked up, don't drink, don't use.” He always said, “Use that as a moment of clarity.” And so I took
that to heart. So every time I've been incarcerated at any time, I've never drank or used in prison or jail.
And I think this last time I spent years not drinking, not using, because it's easy in jail, in prison to use.
And I think it just had this moment of clarity where I was like, “I don't want this.” And I had this guy,
Mitch Bodner, who was one of my elders in prison. And he passed away this past year, last year. Early on
in my sentence, he's like-- he's like, you remember pointing this finger at me and saying, “You don't
belong here. There's something about you. You don't belong here.” And I got offended. I was like, “What
do you mean? I mean I'm here. I got the same tattoo you got!”
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
You know, “I run with the same group you run, what do you mean I don't belong here?” And he
mentored me from that day on. And he's just like, when you go home, you help the people. When you,
you know, you gotta be there for your kids. You have to be a father. You have to, you know what I
mean? He kept plugging me in with all this stuff. And for the beginning I was like, “You're full of shit old
man.” Right. But he wasn't. He wasn’t. He knew what he was talking about. And I am friends with his son
who's also formerly incarcerated. And as Mitch passed away, me and -- his name's Creighton Bodner -- I
could see, I could see Mitch's wisdoms spewed out on him too.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
Right. And I understand what Mitch was saying, like, people around you matter and they can, you take
care of them and they'll take care of you. You take care of each other, you got an entire community of
people who advocate for each other. And I learned that through some random dude I met in prison. So
yeah. I didn't know I wanted to, I just knew, All I knew is I didn't wanna go back to prison. And so far I'm
fifteen years successful. <laughs>
Visintainer:
Could we talk a little bit more about the mentors that you met?
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Leyva:
Mm-hmm.
Visintainer:
So how did you meet them?
Leyva:
Well, Mitch and Rodeo Joe were part of the same subculture. I don't call 'em gangs anymore. Like, “Oh,
you're part of a prison gang.” I was like, “I'm part of a prison subculture that kept me safe.” And they
were both-- Rodeo Joe was an artist, is an artist. And Mitch was part of uh, he's kind of a revolutionary.
And Mitch was really that one guy who was like the father-figure. Right. The guy who was like…
mentored me around spirituality especially. And I always say, the sweat lodge and Native spirituality
really is my practice today, it saved my life. Really. And he showed me songs and rituals and these things
that, you know, I felt like got a father finally. Right?
And Rodeo Joe was the, he's always reading and creating art. Reading and art. And he always-- he
handed me books and said, “What do you think about this book?” And I… we'd have conversations
about different books. He was like my, both of 'em were like my teacher. But Squeaks on the other
hand, I talk about Squeaks quite a bit to folks cause Squeaks was an old Black man. And in prison you
don't cross lines; drugs and cigarettes and even water. Right. Like, things you just don't do. And it's a
funny story. And I've written this story before where it was easier for Joe and Mitch to be my mentors
‘cause they're part of my subculture. But for somebody like Squeaks who I always say, and I'm writing
about this in my dissertation, where out of Squeaks, I've cultivated this idea of a cellblock intellectual.
‘Cause I remember sitting in my cell one day, the yard was open, We can exit our building, we can do
everything. And I was reading The Four Agreements[: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom]. Ruiz, no
not Ruiz, anyway, The Four Agreements, I don’t remember the author's name, um, Miguel Ruiz. I was
reading The Four Agreements and I remember Squeaks came up to my cell just to the door and he said,
he's like, “What are you reading?” And we kinda have a little exchange of eyeball exchange because, you
know, he's Black and I'm Native and we just had to have this understanding. It was a really funny story.
And I was like, Four Agreements. And he's like, “Oh, that's a good book. It's kind of a shitty read.” You
know, <Visintainer laughs> like he started critically thinking like, “It's a crappy book, son! You know what
I mean?” And he's the one who first handed me Pedagogy of the Oppressed.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
And he said, “You should read this book.” And what was it? Maybe he was, no, actually I think he
handed me Leonard Peltier's book. And he's like, “Here, you should read this.” He starts telling me about
the book. “Just to help you understand the place you're in.” I took the book and I said, “Cool, thanks.”
Didn’t pay it no mind. And sure enough, as soon as I opened it, I started reading it, I didn't really
understand it, but I knew because Leonard Peltier was also Native and in prison, I had a connection to
Uncle Leonard, right? And like a week and a half, two weeks later, about a week and a half, I was walking
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the yard and Squeak comes up to me, said, “What'd you think of that book?” And it was like, I knew that
there was something there when I said, “That's pretty good.” And he started to started telling me about
the book. Like he had it memorized. And from there he became my mentor. And nobody ever
questioned the relationship between me and Squeaks and race because they knew it was about
education. Wasn’t about drugs, it wasn't about food, it wasn't about anything illegal is about books. And
nobody ever questioned the mentorship around literature in prison, everything else they would've.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm. So there are certain ways for people in prison to interact across the racial lines then—
Leyva:
Yeah.
Visintainer:
Where that, where that dynamic is not present or not as present.
Leyva:
Definitely. Definitely. And I think that education is one and you know, you can talk to whoever you want
to talk to, but we also know that, you know, Squeaks and I both knew and Squeaks was an old dude
already. So he wasn't involved in politics even though he would definitely go head to head against the
system. But the prison politics, he wasn't involved. But we also knew that if anything was ever happened
amongst races, we would go against each other. We just knew that without a doubt. Right. What's
interesting, and it makes it very important thing to note, is that even Miguel Ruiz's book, The Four
Agreements, Pedagogy [of] the Oppressed,” even like the The Souls of Black [Folk], like all these books
that I was reading in prison, they're all considered banned books. They're considered banned books out
here. Right. And in the prison system, I can get-- Squeaks and Rodeo Joe, we can all get written up for
having these books. And the more writeups we can get a sent to administrative segregation for
literature. We can have our visitation privileges removed. Our commissary privileges removed, our job
detail removed. Just for literature. And he always said, “Here, read this and don't get this book taken
away from you.” And I never understood that, “Well, who's gonna take away this book?”
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
You know, I had to learn about banned books when I came out here and I realized that every single one
of those books I read was on a list that the prison system had. That if you get caught-- Pedagogy of the
Oppressed had like a paper bag cover on it Didn't even say Pedagogy of the Oppressed on the outside. I
remember this didn't happen to me, but I remember like books that would say, you know, Holy Bible on
the outside, but on the inside it's like a whole other book. Right?
Visintainer:
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Yeah. Yeah.
Leyva:
And they strategically hid literature inside other literature. Danielle Steele and these fucking novels,
these love novels that people would always read. A lot of times it was just the covers but the books on
the inside were different. Of course people were reading like love books and stuff, but I can never get
into that prison book <laughs>. But I understood banned books when I came out here and I began to
read about banned books and I began to understand like I can, you know, I don't understand why it's
just literature. But, you know, the Attica uprising and racial groups banding together is dangerous for
the system. Right. They don't want us to band together. ‘Cause it would become, I always say it become
like a union force. Right. And they don't want that. So they make it difficult and, and make it difficult for
us to have these books. They make it punishable to have these books. Squeaks and Joe and Mitch and
others knew that this was a thing. I didn't at the time, I just read the books and had conversations. Right.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
But that was my mentors and that, you know, I wholeheartedly to this day hold them in high regard. And
I remember it was Mitch who said… he always said this whole thing and people said this old cliche too.
He's like, “Make sure you burn your idols. Anybody you idolize be better than them. Never-- anybody
comes in your life that is teaching you something. Make sure you learn it better than they have it.” And
that's the goal too, when I mentor somebody, it's like, “Oh, Martin, I want to be just like you.” I'm like,
“Why you wanna be like me? Be better. Go higher, go farther, help more people.” Do you know what I
mean? It's like you always gotta, and that's what Squeaks and Mitch and Joe taught me.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
And their mentorship was, is, is, and from my understanding, well one: I know Squeaks and Mitch have
passed on and I think Joe is still alive. I'd love to get an interview with Joe. But yeah, that's the goal is
just, you know, take their mentorship, their guidance, their love and amplify it.
Visintainer:
Yeah. That’s a good goal.
Leyva:
And that's what I feel like I'm doing. I think I'm paying them a lot of respect by doing the work I do right
now.
Visintainer:
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Thank you. Thank you for talking with me a little bit about your background and how you kind of came
to where you're at now. I was curious… let's see. What led you to North San Diego County?
Leyva:
Graduate school.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
Graduate school. Which I never thought I'd do. Right. I’m the first male in my family to go to college, let
alone get an associate's degree or bachelor's degree? I got my bachelor's degree in Santa Barbara at
Antioch University. Cost too much money. But Dr. Chris Bickel, who teaches here was teaching at San
Luis Obispo at the time, encouraged me to go to graduate school. And it just so happened he just started
teaching out here too. The same year. I came out as the same year. I think it was here about a year and
a half before I came out here. But North County, San Diego was home because of graduate school and
because it's a critical-- Cal State San Marcos was a very critical department of sociology, you know, they
teach justice studies rather than criminology. Justice studies for me I knew for a fact when I got my
bachelor's degree in psychology, I was like, “I wanna be a MFT or social worker.” And then I was like,
what brought me here was the idea that they were gonna pick apart rational choice here. Cause I always
heard rational choice, like, people choose to drink, people choose to commit crime, people do this. And I
was like, Dr. Bickel, Dr. [Xuan] Santos were like, there's systems that make-- that create this playing field
that's not fair, just. There's, people don't just choose to wake up like, I'm gonna commit a crime. No. It's
like your access to jobs, your access to money, your access to all these things is denied. So then we
commit crimes. Right. I remember, and I did this -- really quickly -- I did this in my neighborhood: I did a
little experiment in my neighborhood in Santa Barbara. I stood on the corner for like four hours, four or
five hours. Hung out on the corner. In about every seven minutes there was a cop that drove by. And
then I counted the liquor stores in my neighborhood. Nine block radius, eleven liquor stores. And I
remember hearing a judge once tell me when I got in trouble for alcohol. They're like, you know, “You’re
nothing but an alcoholic.” You're, you know I don't know what the judge said, but I was like, okay, you're
blaming me for my alcoholism. Who's blaming you for allowing so many liquor store in my
neighborhood? “Oh, you're always continuing to getting pulled over by the police. You must be trouble.”
I said, “Why is there then a cop driving through my neighborhood every seven minutes?” Cause they're
looking for something.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
So you want-- I want to be accountable for the things I do, yes. But this school brought me out here. I
came out here to this school because they're gonna help me hold the system accountable for the things
they're doing too. The long, long que-- a long answer to that, why I'm out here, right. <laughter> Sorry.
Visintainer:
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No, it's all good. And it's a um, I think it's a really good segue into some questions I wanted to ask. So do
you believe in prison-- excuse me, prison abolition?
Leyva:
That's a loaded question for me because I do, I believe that we have, there's a better way. I think there's
really good alternatives to incarceration. And the only reason I am not one-hundred percent sold on
abolition work is because we live in a society that has not dismantled patriarchy. And so, even like
Feminist Thought Theory says we should shut down the prison system, or feminist abolition work, I love
it. It's beautiful work. But if we don't teach men and women to dismantle patriarchy, how are we going
to open up the doors to prison for men and for women? Cause they feed into it as well. Gender, like, I
would say gender’s super important. We can't open up a prison or, or dismantle the prison system
where people haven't dismantled sexism, racism, classism, heterosexism. Right. These integral parts of
patriarchy. Are we ready for that? I think that unfortunately I do, I've met people in prison who I've like,
I hope I don't know, I hope you don't get out now, but I think everybody can be rehabilitated.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Leyva:
I don't think we have a prison system that's doing a-- not even a halfway decent job. I wish we didn't
have prison systems. I wish we had alternatives to incarceration because people do commit crimes and
people commit heinous crimes. And I think that we have to be careful saying we want to abolish a prison
system. I don't think we need a prison system at the magnitude that it is. You know, I don't think that
there's 2.3 million people in the United States that are bad and dangerous people. I think that there's a
small, maybe even less than five percent of that number that maybe should be in a facility of some sort,
some rehabilitative community, some therapeutic community -- we don't have to call it a prison -- who
need real help. Right. But I don't think we can abolish a prison system unless we dismantle patriarchy
first. I don't think we can do it. And I've been there, I've lived inside the prison system. I've lived inside
the jails, I lived inside the violence enough to know that if we abolish this system, especially coming
from feminist theory, we're not ready for. Right. <shrugs> It's also a goal though.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
How do we begin to do the work on patriarchy to set people up so they can have a successful reentry.
Right. So I'm not one-hundred percent sold on abolition, even though I do push a lot of abolitionist
thought. You know, I mean, we have better, we can have better systems knowing what we know now.
But I think we need to really focus on dismantling patriarchy before we open up the doors.
Visintainer:
Yeah. I think, you know, generally speaking, people have a hard time envisioning a world without a
prison system, without police, you know, things like that. Without-- and I guess maybe the question that
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I want to ask in light of your answer to your last question is without patriarchy as well, people have
trouble envisioning a world without that. Even if it's all around us and we don't even necessarily see it all
the time, right. So what does a society without patriarchy look like?
Leyva:
I think it looks like-- I do often think about this. I think a, a society without patriarchy looks a little bit
more empathetic and caring, a little bit more understanding, a little bit more -- very much actually -community-based approaches to everyday things that happen. Arguments and fights and
misunderstandings, miscommunications. Right. That if we… I think patriarchy, there's a response to it.
Right. Anger, yelling or violence or these gender roles, right. These gender roles of what women are
supposed to do, what men are supposed to do. Gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans folks, all these folks, like all
these people that live within our society. Elderly, young people, disabled, able-bodied, like the
intersections of all those things, race, class, gender, ethnicity. That we need a world without patriarchy
is an understanding that everybody here should be on the equal level playing field. And when something
or somebody commits something against a group, right. This is the importance of restorative justice.
This is the importance of conflict resolution, of alternative to violence, like all these great fields. I think
that if we started teaching this stuff in literally preschool or pre-k[indergarten], first grade, second
grade, third grade, all the way up has a curriculum that's based around feelings and emotions and
understanding. I think we'll get to a generation someday who's less violent. Less violent, more
empathetic, more caring, more… sees the world completely different. Right. Maybe this is a big hope
and dream of mine. Right. Maybe this is something that's maybe never gonna happen. But I always look
at it as, you know, it's always worth the shot because what we have right now ain't working for shit,
<laughs> you know what I mean? It's not working. And, you know, we gotta understand all the
intersections of single parents or, or children growing up without parents or the foster care system or,
you know, the world we live in with you know, sexual exploitation of young people and like a world
that’s a really harsh place. Right. But if we don't start teaching this stuff at a young age of how to really
see each other, care about each other, you know, but I think that uh, but I do think, I think we can grow
up in a world where there's less patriarchy or more defined like, you know, I'm not saying that being
masculine or being-- there's something wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just our
response to things doesn't have to be so like, harsh, you know?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
We can have disagreements and a conversation after. We can have a disagreement and space apart
from each other, then come back and talk about it. Like, we can still have our feelings and emotions, but
we teach people how to dismantle their reaction. I think little by little a world without patriarchy is more
caring, you know? And it doesn't have to be loving. Nobody has to love each other. Right. But we have
to care about each other.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
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Leyva:
We're in it together. Covid taught us that. <laughs> We're in it together. Right. So yeah.
Visintainer:
What's your future plans for Project Rebound? Or where would you like to see it head?
Leyva:
I think my future plan is the same future plan as a lot of the coordinators and directors across the state.
But just to see it in every CSU. To see every incarcerated person have the access to associates degrees
when they come home, they can, if they want, can come to a CSU and be successful and grow as an
individual. I also would love to see Project Rebound here and other places. Cause we, every time we do
somebody does something at their Project Rebound, we share the information. Right. I'd like to see it
become a hub for not just students, but community members come get their records expunged, come
and find jobs or resources, come get food. And what we say in the office is come in and shoot the shit.
Let’s come in and talk. Some people gotta get stuff off their chest and it's a hub where we just see each
other and care about each other. Right. And right now, that's what we kind of have down there. We're
just kind of building on it. It's a very small community. We want more community members that are
students, but we want a bigger community of people around the university to say like, Project Rebound
is supporting and helping us and that we're getting the help we need. Right. I think I see the, the work in
the future for Project Rebound that it's just a place to come in and grow.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Leyva:
Student or not, you know what I mean? And you know, and we get, I get this idea from students who are
not formally incarcerated, but are system impacted. When a student comes into my office, or, and I'm
not gonna say my office comes into the office and they say, “Oh, my dad's incarcerated and I don't know
what to do.” And we're sitting there, me or Lawrence or one of our formerly incarcerated students to sit
there to talk to the student about what they're feeling, what they're going through. I see that as a
community space to heal. Right. So that's where I see the future. It's just a place to grow and heal and
be seen and cared for.
Visintainer:
Yeah. As you know, I spend some time working around the corner from you there and from my
perspective you have a community there. I see a lot of engagement. I see a lot of students talking with
you and it's pretty cool.
Visintainer:
Yeah. Yeah. It is really nice. Especially post-- pre-Covid. I mean, I was trying to, I was trying to sit there in
little desks and do work and there'd be like ten people in that small space and I'm like, I gotta put some
earphones on or something cause <laughs> yeah. I'm trying to get work done here. Right. It is, there is a
community built there and it's nice to see it come back pretty quickly now that we're back on campus
and yeah, I'm grateful for that space.
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Visintainer:
Yeah. Is there anything I should have asked you that I didn't?
Leyva:
No. No. I think I really have appreciated this interview, this conversation. I wouldn’t even call it an
interview. It's a, it's a conversation because I think-- I know I'm super grateful for this opportunity to be
in this academic space and this community around people that I love being around. And I mean, as a
formerly incarcerated person, again, feel obligated to continue helping people because in a way I'm
really helping myself. Do you know what I mean? Like, I, sometimes I feel like I'm overpaid. Like I can go
home even though I take a lot of the stress home with me or the emotional labor home with me. But I
also know that every day I'm putting my best foot forward and I'm doing the work. And that pays
homage to Joe and Mitch and Squeaks and others. ‘Cause I still remember the day I walked out of
prison, the faces I left behind. Yeah. And this is my obligation to those men there. Not just the men, but
all incarcerated people across this globe because incarceration is a global issue. You know, we just have
the biggest one in the United States, but it is a global issue. Right. So, but I think question wise, or I think
I'm good.
Visintainer:
All right. Well, I really appreciate your time and the conversation, so thank you very much.
Leyva:
You're welcome. Thank you.
Visintainer:
All right. I'm gonna go ahead and turn off the interview.
Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins
and Sean Visintainer
47
2023-05-03
�
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Leyva, Martin. Interview transcript, October 10, 2022
Description
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Martin Leyva was the program coordinator from 2019-2023 for Project Rebound at California State University San Marcos, an on-campus support system for formerly incarcerated students which assists in their efforts to succeed in school and beyond. In his interview Leyva also discusses a similar program - the Transitions Program at Palomar and MiraCosta, colleges, and talks about his experience as a formerly incarcerated person and how his experience re-integrating into society and academia prompted his interest in Project Rebound, dismantling patriarchy, and supporting other members of the formerly incarcerated community.
Leyva also discusses his experience with incarceration and post-incarceration life, especially in regards to prison employment and the prison-industrial complex, barriers experienced by prisoners upon release, and the mentorship that Leyva received from members of his fellow incarcerated community.
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Martin Leyva
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Sean Visintainer
Sierra Jenkins
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2022-10-27
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California State University San Marcos -- Project Rebound
Formerly incarcerated individuals
Imprisonment
MiraCosta College -- Transitions Program
Palomar College -- Transitions Program
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Prison-industrial complex
Santa Barbara City College -- Transitions Program
Transitions (Program)
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San Marcos (Calif.)
Santa Barbara (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
Spanish
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Martin Leyva
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CSUSM history
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/8b7ea359fd88c198e863d417f2251a4e.pdf
f94190d28b4466324946ce6be2435b49
PDF Text
Text
ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-07
Ryan Willis:
Alright. Hello, this is Ryan Willis, and today I am interviewing Ilima Kam Martinez for the California State
University San Marcos Library Special Collections oral history project. Today is April 7, 2023, and the
time is 1:47 PM, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Ilima, thank you so much for
interviewing with me today.
Ilima Kam Martinez:
Thank you for the invitation.
Willis:
Of course. So, let's go ahead and start off, um, from the beginning. Where were you born?
Martinez:
I was born here in San Diego, California, and raised here in both Oceanside and Carlsbad area.
Willis:
Perfect. And if you don't mind, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood? Uh, what was it like
growing up for you?
Martinez:
It's just-it's always an interesting question because I think I will answer that much differently than I
would've say, you know, uh, 25 years ago. Um, I… attended schools in Carlsbad, which is a
predominantly, you know, affluent Caucasian community. And coming from a really diverse background,
um, I, uh… let me think.
Willis:
Yeah, yeah. Take your time <Martinez laughs>. Not a problem.
Martinez:
Um, that really set me on the path that I find myself on today. I grew up with both parents in my life.
Two sisters, two older sisters. I'm the youngest. Um, my father was a retired civil engineer from Pearl
Harbor. So he had me, you know, by the time I was born, he was already at an age where he was retired.
So, I spent most of my time with him and being raised by him.
Willis:
Okay.
Martinez:
Mm-hmm.
Willis:
That's really interesting. So, you said your father worked in-at Pearl Harbor?
Transcribed by Ryan Willis
1
2023-05-25
�ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-07
Martinez:
Mm-hmm.
Willis:
So did you spend a lot of time in Hawaii growing up?
Martinez:
I did. So, I also have two half-sisters, that remained in Hawaii, from my father's first marriage. And,
when I say half-sisters, that's just, more literal than anything there. So I spent a lot of time, with my dad
and my sisters during the summer times growing up. So we often would visit-Willis:
Gotcha.
Martinez:
Hawaii.
Willis:
Did you ever have any interest in living there full-time? Or was it just more of like, oh, we'll just, you
know, visit here and there?
Martinez:
I always thought I would. I always thought that I would, eventually wind up there. Um, and I'm not
totally disregarding the possibility of that happening in the future. But yes, I do hope to find myself back
there one day.
Willis:
That's awesome. Yeah. I've always wanted to visit, but never have to this point. Um, were there any
influential family members or friends growing up that you really looked up to?
Martinez:
I would have to say my dad.
Willis:
Your dad.
Martinez:
Yeah. My dad was, he was so, he came from a, a generation right, where it was very, um, old school. You
know, he was working at Pearl Harbor at the time that it was bombed. And so he, he, although he
wasn't… he came from a generation, that was not especially affectionate or maybe verbalized, you
know, their, their love for their families and friends, but always showed it, you know, in by example.
Transcribed by Ryan Willis
2
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�ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-07
Always being present with me, always, you know, taking me to, you know, activities. And, so although
he might not have been, you know, that ty-not typical, but extremely affectionate or, you know,
verbalizing love that he was very instrumental in what I would consider to be a really happy childhood.
Willis:
Right. Yeah. That's awesome.
Martinez: Mm-hmm.
Willis:
So you said that he was actually at Pearl Harbor, though when the bombing took place?
Martinez:
He was mm-hmm.
Willis:
Wow. So what kind of stories did he have <Martinez laughs> regarding that? Or was that something that
he kind of just didn't like to talk about?
Martinez:
He, it's funny because I actually didn't even know he was a civil engineer at Pearl Harbor until his 80th
birthday party. Which took place in Hawaii. In his retirement he was actually a tennis instructor for the
Carlsbad Parks and Recreation for twenty years. That's what I always thought that he was. <laughs> To
me, that's what my dad did for a living.
Willis:
Right.
Martinez:
Oh, he's a tennis instructor! <laughs>. And when somebody, you know, was giving a speech at his
birthday party instead he was a civil engineer, you know, I'm already a young adult at that point, right?
At Pearl Harbor. I was, I had no idea. But that was typical of my dad. He was very, very humble. Um,
very modest. And so, it probably shouldn't have surprised me, but yeah. He didn't talk about much
about his experience, at Pearl Harbor at the time. Later on, you know, when he, so he had suffered a
major stroke in his eighties and, had moved in, with my family and I, and so I was his sole caregiver
during about a span, about, of about 10 years. And things would, he would start to talk about it but
never really elaborate. And, and I just always, you know, knew better than to, to pry that he would tell
me what I was meant to know.
Willis:
Right.
Transcribed by Ryan Willis
3
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�ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-07
Martinez:
What he felt that I should know.
Willis:
Yeah. If you didn’t find out about it until you were, you know, a young adult. So that kind of-- <laughs>
Martinez:
Right.
Willis:
Explains it right there. Like yeah, you probably didn’t want to go there.
Martinez:
Exactly. And, and my dad was such a, he was such, a planner, right? Like, he was always very organized,
always had things in place. So he actually had written his own obituary several years before he even had
his stroke. And so it was actually through his obituary that he wrote that I learned a lot about him.
Willis:
I see.
Martinez:
Mm-hmm.
Willis:
That's fascinating.
Martinez:
Mm-hmm. <laughs>
Willis:
Thank you. Thank you for sharing that.
Martinez:
Mm-hmm.
Willis:
So kind of along the lines of Hawaiian culture, when did you first take an interest in it? And was there a
point in your life where you kind of knew that that was something that you really wanted to focus on in
your life, or even with a career?
Transcribed by Ryan Willis
4
2023-05-25
�ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-07
Martinez:
I, I think that so being the youngest of my siblings, I was the only one who was born here in San Diego.
All my siblings, all my sisters were born in Hawaii, raised in Hawaii. And so I feel like there was always
that yearning, you know, to be connected to Hawaii. And, um, it's really interesting because what I
didn't know at the time in my upbringing, you know, with my dad, what I didn't realize was very special
and unique to Hawaiian culture? I didn't even realize that's what it was until, until later on. Right? Just,
you know, maybe the foods we ate, the music my, my dad would play, he was a “slap <unclear>
guitarist.” He played ukulele. Um, but, it, to me, it was just my home. Right? So I think that it was pretty,
I think I wanna say sometime around maybe middle school that I had seen a hula performance. And I
remember it having such an impact on me at that moment that I was like, ahh! I don't know, there was
just this instant connection, although I had seen, you know, hula before, but it was just this one
particular moment. And so, that was when I had asked my dad, I would like to take hula classes, but
again, I mean, I'm in Carlsbad, right? And like where, where do you even find something like that? And,
and, um. But we, we did. And so he, enrolled me in classes at that time. And it's been a lifelong journey
of learning ever since. And just something that I've always felt, so it, it's been the constant in my life
right? Where I could go, always rely on hula to, to, um… it was just a, an anchor, you know? Right. No
matter what else is going on in my life, hula was always and still is that anchor for me, that makes me
feel safe.
Willis:
Right.
Martinez: Yeah.
Willis:
That's so cool. Yeah. I was gonna ask you, because I know that we, had talked in our pre-interview
specifically about hula and how important that is to Hawaiian culture. I understand that you actually
teach it as well.
Martinez:
I do <laughs>, I do. I have a hālau in, which is a traditional hula school in Vista. I just opened up the hālau
oh gosh. We just celebrated our fourth anniversary. Um, and it's been, it's been wonderful. Um, I think
for those that have not had experience in hālau it's, it can be challenging to understand, but hālau
equates for a lot of people family, right? Like in its essence, yes, it's a school of hula, but really it's in, its,
in its foundational form it's about family and it works and operates very much like a family. So
sometimes I wonder if it was really that I wanted to open the hālau for <laughs>, you know, teaching
hula or if it was for the purpose of being able to provide a home and a family for, for students.
Willis:
Right.
Martinez:
Mm-hmm.
Transcribed by Ryan Willis
5
2023-05-25
�ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-07
Willis:
That's awesome. You also mentioned that you have a passion for elders, and I know that you were
teaching them as well pre-Covid. Is that correct?
Martinez:
Pre-Covid I was volunteering at the Oceanside Senior Center. And I think it also again goes back to my
dad. I think a lot of things <laughs> will go back to my dad. He was, I mean he was fifty-eight years old
when I was born, and I think about that and it just kind of blows my mind. And as being his caregiver,
kūpuna or elders in Hawaiian culture are so, I think that's one of the many unique things about Hawaiian
culture is that we, help, hold our kūpuna in such high regard because we know that their experience, we
know that their, the lives that they have lived and their experience far surpasses ours. So we always
know to go to them and respect, you know, the knowledge that they, that they bear. So yeah-Willis:
And I think you also mentioned that part of the reason why you've really enjoyed teaching the hula to
seniors or elders is because it exercises their mind not just their body, right? Like you're just kind of
focusing on the whole package there. Can you maybe elaborate a little bit more on that?
Martinez:
Yeah. I mean, hula at its core is encompassing of, mental, physical, and spiritual, which you know, I've
learned that not everybody realizes or may know that. And so, when you're, when I'm teaching with
kūpuna, having those three facets; that physical, mental and emotional part I have seen has been such,
has had such a huge impact on them. You know, just the simple act of coming together, of sharing meals
together, which we do a lot, <laughs> The cognition that goes into learning choreography, I have seen
such an a really impressive trajectory, upward trajectory in how much now that my kūpuna class can
retain as opposed to when they may have first started dancing. Right. I think that, watching that, like
being a witness to this, this, how it can, how hula can positively impact them, is just, such a huge
motivator to just keep going, to just to keep doing that and okay now what else can we do?
Willis:
Yeah. Seems like that would be very rewarding.
Martinez:
Mm-hmm. It's Extremely rewarding.
Willis:
So you were teaching, classes for free to seniors right before CovidMartinez:
Before Covid.
Willis:
Transcribed by Ryan Willis
6
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�ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-07
And then once Covid hit. So what was that whole experience like for you once Covid hit and you weren't
able to teach people in person. I bet that was really difficult for you.
Martinez:
<laughs>. It was, it was. It provided its challenges. I think a lot of us shared the same challenges. Trying
to communicate and, keep a community online was just really challenging. However, I feel like during
the time of the pandemic folks were looking to have that sense of community that when you would've
thought that we would have flailed, as a hālau, it actually just thrived, because of that need that, just
that human need to want to come together and have a community. So when it was time, when we
reached that time where we could come together outdoors, I mean, we, we did it immediately. As soon
as we were told that we could conduct classes outdoors it was immediately and students came out and
didn't hesitate. I would say probably the most challenging thing was what is inherently cult- culturally
inherent to us is the act of like, exchanging hānai or, you know kiss, kisses or hugs. And culturally, that's
what we do when we greet each other, when we say farewell to each other, is to always hānai each
other. And that was probably one of the largest challenges because we couldn’t even, like, <Willis
laughs> we couldn't touchWillis:
Right.
Martinez:
We couldn'tWillis:
Six feet.
Martinez:
Yeah. That six feet. And it went against everything that we, that was so ingrained in us that that, that
was pretty tough.
Willis:
That was such an awkward moment in time. Like, nobody really knew how to interact with each other. I
want to give you a hug, but I guess let's give you an air hug for now.
Martinez:
Yeah, yeah.
Willis:
But I can see how that could be very difficult, especially with your culture, just wanting to be right there
with the person and be able to, you know, exchange those pleasantries. So-Martinez:
Transcribed by Ryan Willis
7
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�ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-07
Yeah.
Willis:
Yeah. Going back to when you first started learning hula, do you specifically remember an instructor or
somebody that taught you or that really had an influence on that?
Martinez:
I couldn't single one out to be honest, because with each kumu or teacher that I have had has had such
a huge influence on the kumu that I am today. I, I couldn't credit just, just one. They all affected me in
different ways, but equally impactful ways. I'll note that, so I was, <unclear> is the formal graduation
ceremony that a kuma hula goes through in order to, it's like it's a method of training, right? To become
a kuma hula. And so the kuma that I was very honored and so blessed to be able to graduate under,
he's, his name is Kawaikapuokalani Hewett. And he is so prolific and knowledgeable in, in all aspects of
Hawaiian culture that, and just to have that source, to be able to always go back to for the rest of, you
know, my life like, that's just, it's just really, I feel so, so blessed that I have him, in my life. And, and the
Hawaiian community is blessed to have him because he's so gracious and generous with his, with his ‘ike
or his knowledge, where I think that as an indigenous culture, we often can gatekeep you know,
rightfully so. But we can often gatekeep some knowledge because of how it has been, exploited right?
In the past.
Willis: Mm-hmm.
Martinez: And the fact that, that kumu Kawaikapuokalani is, is, has such a kind heart and willing to be
able to, share knowledge is, is really, really priceless because it has benefited so many of his students.
Willis:
Right, right. Do you remember when you met him exactly? Was it when you were first learning hula or?
Martinez:
Oh my goodness. Well he is a, he, I can't remember exactly because he's very well known in Hawaii. He
is a famous composer or songwriter and poet. And so my father being a musician, I remember seeing
Kawaikapuo CDs in my home, you know at the time. So I, it's actually kind of interesting cause I feel like
it was almost a, uh, predetermined that this relationship was going to circle around. Right. And
ironically, he, and I can't obviously say the name, but he resides on the same street in Hawaii that my
sister resided in at the time. So when I would visit my sister <laughs> in Hawaii, it was the same street
that my now kumu still lives on. So, it, it's just-Willis:
Oh wow. How convenient is that?
Martinez:
It's just, yeah, <laughs>. I’m going to say coincident, there’s no such thing as coincidences.
Willis:
Transcribed by Ryan Willis
8
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�ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-07
Right. No, I agree. <Martinez laughs>. Aside from hula, are there any other specific Hawaiian traditions
that you really feel passionate about?
Martinez:
Oh my goodness. Um, I feel that hula does encompass all of those traditions. Right? And I think that's
why it is so predominant in Hawaiian culture because it encompasses every aspect of Hawaiian culture.
Protocols are implemented in hula that are implemented in… that really dictate, the belief systems of
Hawaiian people. So, I wouldn't, I, yeah. I don't think, yeah. <laughs>
Willis:
No, that's perfect. Do you think there's any like, big misconceptions about Hawaiians or Hawaiian
culture in general? I mean, like stereotypes <Martinez laughs> from your experiences?
Martinez:
Yeah. <more laughter>. Yeah. There's, I wouldn't even know where to begin <laughs>.
Willis:
<laughs> I know it's kind of a loaded question.
Martinez:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. But if I had to Like if I had to choose, you know, one or two of the most common
stereotypes or misconceptions, gosh, I would, I… Hmm, Hmm.
Well, I'll address one thing only because it's fresh in my mind. And I was posed this question recently
was I often get asked, “Oh, how much Hawaiian are you? And it's interesting when folks ask this
question because it's almost like they're putting a measure to it. Yeah? And I think what folks don't
understand is that as a Hawaiian people, we identify our Hawaiian-ness is by our lineage and our
ancestors. Right? It's not about a blood quantum. And I, I think I'll just leave it at that <laughs>.
Willis:
That's perfect. I appreciate that. Didn't mean to put you on the spot.
Martinez:
No, no, it's a great question. It was just hard to decide what it would be the, what is most often
misunderstood. Because there's plenty. There’s plenty.
Willis:
Yeah. Understood.
Martinez: Mm-hmm.
Willis:
So this next question's gonna kind of lead into your organization that I want to talk to you about-
Transcribed by Ryan Willis
9
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�ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-07
Martinez:
Mm-hmm.
Willis:
But around when and how did you begin your journey in assisting with spreading and preserving
traditions of Hawaii?
Martinez:
I'm sorry, can you ask--?
Willis:
Yeah, of course. So I was just wondering around when was it, when you were maybe a teenager, young
adult, when you decided, okay, I'm gonna really start to assist with spreading and preserving the
traditions of Hawaiian culture?
Martinez:
Hmm. Oh gosh. I think I can't recall when I know I was younger, but I can't recall the exact time. But as
an adult, I always knew. Like as a young adult, I knew that that would be my mission, for a couple
reasons. One, it was the accessibility of, learning Hawaiian culture being a Hawaiian who lives in
diaspora, right? Who doesn't, who isn't living in their ancestral land. So, just, you know, personally from
my own personal experience not having that access and really having to actively search for it, I knew
that I wanted to be able to provide that for other native Hawaiians that are not, no longer residing in
Hawaii. Another reason is that just like anything else, any sort of extracurricular activity, sometimes
classes are not affordable to, native Hawaiian population. Right? They can be, that can be a barrier, a
financial barrier. And that's always kind of been, to me an interesting, dilemma as a kumu hula, and as
someone who has a hālau, I always wanna make sure our classes are accessible to everyone who wants
to learn. However, at the end of the day, I still have a lease to pay. Right? An electric bill. And, and so
how can I do that in such a way that it can benefit students. How can I teach, culture in a way that can
benefit students, that can still benefit financially for my family, right? Because I dedicate a lot of my time
to this. And then the third component is, how can it benefit the community as a whole? And I think
that's where UMEKE, our organization comes in, right? Establishing that nonprofit organization where
we can be able to provide access to culture for everyone. Because I believe anyone and everyone who
would like to learn Native Hawaiian or not, should be able to. Should be able to do that and do it in a, an
a appropriate and an authentic way you know, because we don't live… Because of our locale, there are
often folks who may be teaching a version of hula or, but perhaps they don't have the education to be
teaching Hawaiian culture in, you know in an authentic way. And that's not to say that it's, you know I'm
sure the intention, the intentions are good and, and whatnot, but they're-- In San Diego in particular, the
native Hawaiian community is very passionate about being, taking on that kuleana or that responsibility
of educating about Hawaiian culture in a way that it's, that it's coming from the native Hawaiian
community. Yeah. I know that, personally, and this is just me personally, is that because Hawaiian
culture has been commercialized for so long, I actively work towards deconstructing those, those, those
stereotypes that surround Hawaiian culture that mostly came about once Hawaii became a, a very
popular travel destination. Right? Um, so--
Transcribed by Ryan Willis
10
2023-05-25
�ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-07
Willis:
Gotcha. So speaking a little bit more on, UMEKE when did you first, establish your organization?
Martinez:
We filed in 2021, October of 2021. And we were stagnant for a little bit as we were kind of building our
capacity, and I've just recently become more active and had some really great opportunities to be able
to-Willis:
And you are the founder, you are the president. It's really, you know, your idea. Right? You were the one
that was like, let's do this, let's push forward.
Martinez:
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Willis:
Was there anyone else that hopped on board with you that kind of helped you get it going? Or was it
pretty much your project and your project only?
Martinez:
Oh my gosh. I had a huge support system, even from people that don't even realize they were part of it.
They were part of it. <laughs> And again, it goes back to, my, the elders within the Hawaiian
community, specifically in San Diego. Those aunties, you know, I have some really amazing female role
models in the Native Hawaiian community, in the kūpuna. And when I see the work that they have done
and dedicated their lives to, I realize that this next generation, that I now have that responsibility to
keep on that pathway that they've, that they've blazed already. Right? Mm-hmm.
Willis:
Right. So obviously it's still a relatively new organization, but what are you most proud of, so far, and
what are you kind of hoping to accomplish moving forward?
Martinez:
Oh, gosh. I'm at this moment most proud of a grant we were recently working on within collaboration
with a local school district to be able to bring hula to -- and ukulele -- to an elementary school that has a
significant Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander [NHPI] population. And providing that accessibility
component, where, you know students might not otherwise be able to afford it financially or may not
just even have the transportation for that, right? Because it happens during school. It, the accessibility
just makes, made it so easy. So I would say that because I reflect on what I would've really loved at that
age and been exposed to, and being able to take ownership of that [NHPI] identity in a place other than
my home, among my friends, I think that would've been really impactful for me as a young person. And
so-Willis:
Definitely. Yeah. And kids remember assemblies like that as well.
Transcribed by Ryan Willis
11
2023-05-25
�ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-07
Martinez:
Mm-hmm.
Willis:
I can still tell you some of the ones that I attended in elementary school and like the impact they had on
me so that's a really cool thing. And then, as far as like, looking forward to future, do you have any goals
in mind or is it really just continue to do what you're doing and hope more people hop on?
Martinez:
<laughs> Yeah, I mean, as far as goals it's so interesting because when this group of us set out to start
UMEKE, there were really folks that just wholeheartedly believed in me and my vision. And when we set
out to do this, I think just like anything when you start something you're like, “Ohh!,” you know.
<laughs> We weren't sure how successful we would be, but it's so interesting because opportunities
have really been presenting themselves without us seeking them out, which to me, speaks to the
mission of UMEKE that it was something that was really needed in our community because projects are
really kind of floating our way, and it aligns with what we would love to do. So although we didn't know
exactly maybe specifically what a project was going to look like, folks are coming to us with their
projects. And so it's, that's really exciting because it's like, oh, there was a need! We, okay, great. You
know- <laughs>
Willis:
<laughs> It’s all for a reason.
Martinez:
It, yes. Yeah.
Willis:
That's really cool. Shifting gears a little bit, I understand you are a Cal State San Marco alum?
Martinez:
I am.
Willis:
So you earned your bachelor's degree in Indigenous Anthropology, is that correct?
Martinez:
Mm-hmm.
Willis:
in 2019?
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Martinez:
Mm-hmm.
Willis:
So what was that, what made you decide to ultimately go for a bachelor's degree? What kind of pushed
you in that direction?
Martinez:
That's a funny story. So I have four children, and my eldest was in high school at the time and, you know
neither of my parents went to college. And between my siblings and I, we didn't have a four-year
degree. Right. So I was very, very, very <laughs>, persistent that my children go to a four-year college,
and I realized that I couldn't preach <laughs> higher education to them. Unless I went ahead and did it
myself and so I did <laughter>. Yeah.
Willis:
That's very admirable. It's, it's not easy, especially when you're a parent. I can attest to that. It is not
easy to continue on with school. I mean, you just have so many other things going on. Just to be able to
put aside some time for that is a challenge within itself. Was it a difficult decision? I mean, I guess that's
the obvious to, to go back to school or, but once you got in, was it, was it easy for you? Did it come
naturally, or what was that kind of whole process like when you first started attending classes?
Martinez:
It was interesting going back as an, as a non-traditional student and, you know, at my age with children,
I knew I was going to go into it slow and steady. I wasn't in a rush. And so I had just started with maybe
two classes per semester. And, and I actually thought of it as a blessing because I got to study exactly
what I wanted to. I knew that cultural anthropology was going to be something that would maintain my
interest and my goals. And so, when I had learned that Cal State [San Marcos] specifically had an
indigenous anthropology degree, it, it, it just all made sense. So it wasn't, it was challenging maybe
logistically, having, juggling, family, but learning and the like-minded folks that I got to meet, especially
this younger generation! They're amazing, you know, <laughter> and getting invigorated by this young
energy. For me it was a, it was a great experience, and you know, when you tell somebody that you're
going to school for indigenous anthropology, you always get that question, what are you gonna do with
that? Well, guess what? I use it every single day! <laughs>,
Willis:
Right. Not everybody can say that, so that's impressive. Yeah. Uh, so did you come away with a new
perspective after graduating?
Martinez:
Um, hmm. I think the perspective that I got was, probably one of the most important perspectives is
that outside perspective, right? Because we're sometimes always just living in our bubble and really only
see what's happening in our immediate surroundings. And so, I would say it changed my perspective in
that, in the sense that, one, learning about other cultures, and when we learn about other cultures, it
really helps us to understand more of our own, and being with such a diverse, because Cal State [San
Marcos] does have a really diverse student body, right? So different ages and ethnicities. And so I think
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that, those, all of those things combined are, are what changed my perspective, not the actual piece of
paper <laughs>.
Willis:
Yeah, no. I totally understand. Um, as far as the other cultures that you learned about, was there one in
particular other than Hawaiian that really caught your attention?
Martinez:
Oh my goodness. I wouldn't say specifically one. I think that just studying other indigenous cultures,
particularly, you know, the ones within our area, like the Kumeyaay and the Luiseño, I just loved learning
about how more similar Hawaiian culture is, with the [San Diego-are] native communities than not, and
so I would say it that was just, and, and that was with everything. That's with belief systems, that's with,
our, our medical systems, how we view health.
Willis:
Mm-hmm.
Martinez:
How we view, our, structures of our families, our structure of our communities. So, now I'm not sure
that I <laughs> answered your question.
Willis:
Yeah, that's perfect. Um, so I did want to touch base on an event that, um, you obviously had a huge
hand in, earlier this year in February, you were able to establish the first ever southern California, Asian,
and Pacific Islander Festival.
Martinez:
Mm-hmm.
Willis:
Which, um, took place actually here in Oceanside. Uh, first off, what was kind of the vision of this, event
and how long did it take for this idea to become a reality?
Martinez:
Um, I can say I can't take credit for coming up with the idea. As, but as now, like currently being a cocreator of, of the event for me personally, I come from a multiculturally- multicultural background, so,
um, as a lot of us are right? So yes, I'm Native Hawaiian. Um, in addition to that, I'm also Japanese and
Chinese and Mexican. And, coming from such a, a multi-ethnic background growing up in North [San
Diego] County, I think that, my drive behind this event is one, bringing that diversity to North County
that it hasn't seen a lot of in the past that, and maybe on this, on this level, right?
Willis:
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Mm-hmm.
Martinez:
The API [Asian & Pacific Islander] community being highlighted to this extent in this area, we're quite
underrepresented. And I knew that going into this festival that our number one focus was always going
to be on the educational aspect of it, and getting, you know, circling back to that, like when we
understand other cultures, that we really begin to understand ourselves more, and we wanted to focus
on this educational part because sometimes festivals can get quite, um, what's the word? Insular. Yeah.
And we want to make it, we want folks to know that this festival's for everyone. You know, no matter
what the background, no matter what the age, no matter what the locale that is for everybody to be
able to come together and learn about API culture.
Willis:
Right. Gotcha.
Martinez:
So-Willis:
Uh, so can you share your experience of how the event actually unfolded? Was it what you were hoping
for? Was it a nice turnout?
Martinez:
Well, it's actually in three weeks.
Willis:
Oh, my mistake. <laughs>
Martinez:
<laughs>. So we're in the thick of it.
Willis:
Gotcha. Okay. I must have, misread that. My apologies. <laughs> My understanding is that it already
happened earlier this year.
Martinez:
No worries.
Willis:
Okay. So it's happening in three weeks from now!
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Martinez:
Mm-hmm.
Willis:
Okay. That's awesome. So I guess, um, what are you expecting? Are you expecting it to be a pretty big
turnout?
Martinez:
Well, that's what we're hoping for! <laughs>
Willis:
Of course.
Martinez:
Um, but as far as how it's unfolded, you know, it did just like anything, it's evolved. The, the, the vision
has evolved a little bit. In, in, the, the, yeah, the vision and the mission have all evolved quite a bit, but
as far as like what people can expect, because we wanted it to be, you know, educational, there you will
find the typical things that you would find in a festival, yeah, is performances and vendors and food and
things like that. But I think probably my most favorite part that has sort of evolved since the initial
planning is this contemporary aspect of what API culture looks like. So, I mean, you can use K-Pop
[Korean pop music] as a great example, right?
Willis:
Mm-hmm.
Martinez:
Like, and the phenomenon around K-pop and, where that came from. So initially we were focusing
mostly on traditional practices and performances, but then we realized how many amazing API artists
are out there and are deserving of recognition, but may not necessarily be practicing what would be
considered a traditional art. So that's, I think I'm really excited to see what some of these performers are
bringing, these API artists and performers are bringing to the festival. I think that's gonna be a really fun
aspect of it. That was, for me, it was, it was an unexpected but pleasant surprise addition to the festival.
Willis:
Right. Absolutely. Uh, do you know about how many different ethnicities, cultures are gonna be
represented at this event?
Martinez:
We have about, um, over 20.
Willis:
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Wow.
Martinez:
Yeah. We have about over 20.
Willis:
That's impressive. And a lot of them have just, have they been coming to you about it, or do you reach
out to them? How does that usually work?
Martinez:
You know I, I'm really fortunate to have been embedded in the Pacific Islander community in San Diego
since I, you know, the dance community is very close-knit. So I'm really fortunate to be able to reach out
to other directors of performance groups that I am, I have relationships with. And they were the first
ones to jump on and say, yes, we would love to support you. Um, so that was really how the
momentum, started. Right? Because, you know, you start with one performance group and then
another performance group. Oh! And then so-and-so's performing, and then another one. And so I
wasn't as, connected within, the AA [African American] community though, and that has been an
amazing experience is meeting other directors in their respective arts, like, <unclear> and, Lion Dance,
and, because it's just, we are all, we're all the same at the end of the day. And um, so I, this initial year
we did a huge, we did a lot of outreach. We have a great leadership team, and so between us and our
outreach and our circles, we, we got a lot of support from folks. And it didn't take much of an ask. Folks
really wanted to be a part of this. They really wanted this.
Willis:
I can imagine. That's fascinating.
Martinez:
Mm-hmm.
Willis:
So is there anything else that you uh, or how else do you continue to help, I guess Native Hawaiian
culture and how can, for example, someone like myself get involved if they wanted to, kind of help and
promote in that area?
Martinez:
Oh gosh. Um, oh, I'm sorry. Can you repeat that again? <laughs>
Willis:
So I guess what I'm really getting at, like how can someone else, if they really want to, you know, help
and be a part of the cause, how would they go about doing that? Would they just reach out to you?
Martinez:
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Oh, yeah. I mean the, I mean, what, that's the irony in it, right? Is the majority of, of my supporters and
our team are not Native Hawaiian. And, but it's that allyship and because they you know, believe in, in,
in the mission they're absolutely willing to just jump in <laughs> and do whatever needs to be done.
Um, so yeah, I mean anybody who ever want, who wants to be an ally, we are, we are here and happy
and-Willis:
Come on down!
Martinez:
Yes. Ready to, to you know, just grow our community.
Willis:
Right. That's so cool. So you kind of may have already answered this earlier but overall, as you reflect on
everything you have done and accomplished to this point in your life, what are you most proud of and
what has brought you the most joy? Has it been, maybe the hula aspect, um, teaching elders, children,
or is there something else?
Martinez:
<laughs> Uh I think, it's my own children, right? That will always be my most proud accomplishment.
<laughs> Them as individuals, but also taking that perspective again of what I really could have needed
or wanted in my upbringing, I feel like I provided that for my children and have instilled that into my
children. And, knowing that I know that they're gonna move forward and pass that on to their children,
that's, that will always be my proudest accomplishment, knowing that the generations far after I'm
gone, will still be carrying on those, on those traditions.
Willis:
Yeah. That's fantastic. And then, before we close our interview, is there anything else you would like to
mention? Maybe something I didn't ask you about that you really were hoping I would or? <laughs>
Martinez:
Oh gosh. Um, not that I can think of. Um, yeah, no nothing <laughs>
Willis:
Okay. Yeah, no that's perfect. I think we definitely covered a lot of great stuff in this interview. So, really
appreciate your time, Ilima. This was very informative. I think a lot of people can get a lot out of this
whole interview and, really appreciate everything that you do for not only Hawaiian culture, but just the
community in general. So thank you so much for your time.
Martinez:
Yeah, thank you.
Willis:
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Alright. <Martinez laughs> Now I'm gonna go ahead and stop the recording.
Transcribed by Ryan Willis
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�
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Transcripts
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Martinez, Ilima Kam. Interview transcript, April 7, 2023
Description
An account of the resource
Ilima Kam Martinez is a California State University San Marcos alum and the founder and President of UMEKE, an organization that promotes and preserves Hawaiian culture through hula dancing. In this interview, Ilima discusses her upbringing, the influence and relationship with her father, the importance of hula in Hawaiian cultures, the challenges she faced during the Covid-19 pandemic, her passion for elders, her mentors, going back to school to earn her degree, and her goals for UMEKE moving forward.
Date
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2023-04-07
Subject
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California State University San Marcos
COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts
COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-
Hawaii -- Culture
Hawaii -- Social life and customs
Hula (Dance)
Coverage
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Hawaii
San Diego County (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
Hawaiian
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Ilima Kam Martinez
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text
Identifier
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SC027-27
Creator
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Ilima Kam Martinez
Contributor
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Ryan Willis
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Community history
History Department internship
Women's experience
-
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Oral History
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Interviewer
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Madeleine Meyer
Interviewee
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Jay Franklin
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=FranklinJay_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-12.xml
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5.4 Franklin, Jay. Interview April 12, 2023. SC027-026 35:02 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos. California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs Education, Higher Human rights LGBTQ+ activism Jay Franklin Madeleine Meyer Moving Image FranklinJay_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-12.mp4 1:|15(10)|33(6)|47(4)|68(3)|81(15)|94(15)|119(13)|131(12)|148(1)|168(5)|187(1)|205(9)|228(1)|239(13)|271(14)|283(11)|308(14)|327(6)|341(5)|355(2)|370(14)|385(16)|407(8)|442(6)|474(11)|485(4)|510(13)|523(8)|540(16)|554(14)|566(6)|600(7)|625(1)|635(12)|653(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6bbcdb372d4f92f0e23c4484059a9d18.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview introduction + Franklin's early life and education prior to CSUSM Jay Franklin reflects on his educational journey as well as the cross-country move he made that landed him back in California, where he was born, ultimately leading to a career change from cosmetology to academia. Cosmetology ; Education ; Military Family ; San Diego ; Tidewater Community College, Virginia Beach ; Virginia Beach, Virginia 220 Franklin enrolls at California State San Marcos for his B.A. in 2005. Franklin discusses his decision to attend CSUSM, as well as giving a general outline of his path back to the university once he had his undergraduate degree. Bridgepoint Education/Asher University ; California State University San Marcos ; Careers in higher education ; City College ; Higher education ; Matriculation Coordinator ; San Diego ; San Diego State University ; San Marcos 375 Finding Student Life and Leadership Franklin describes joining a campus LGBTQ+ organization, the stealing of the student organization's banner, and his encountering of Student Life and Leadership and the Multicultural Programs Office through that act of hate. Hate crimes on campus ; Hillcrest ; Inclusivity ; LGBTQIA+ ; Marketing ; Pride Center 508 Early engagement with the Cross-Cultural Center (then known as the Multicultural Programs office) Franklin discusses working with Multicultural Programs to gather resources for the LGBTQ+ student organization. Frankling describes the draw of the then Multicultural Center including its patrons and the space itself. American Indian Student Association ; Asian Pacific Islander Desi American ; Black Student Union ; California State University San Marcos ; California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Campus resources ; Community building ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Inclusion ; Movimentio Estudiantil Chicano de Azltlán ; Representation on campus ; Self-expression ; Vietnamese Student Association 722 Franklin becomes a peer educator at the Multicultural Center in Spring 2007. Franklin recalls working as a peer educator at the Multicultural Center (Cross-Cultural Center), and learning about student affairs as a career. Activism ; California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Marketing ; Peer educators 876 Programs and outreach at the Cross-Cultural Center. Franklin recalls being a " ; marketing machine" ; and peer educators working with their communities for outreach. Activism ; Campus community ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Identity ; Marketing ; Outreach 971 Understanding the under-served campus community. Franklin describes the allure of food in driving attendance to events. He also describes workshops dedicated to finding funding for student organization programming. California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Food insecurity 1070 Franklin's experience with discovering his cultural identity Franklin recalls his early childhood military family background and how that did not inform his identity, and speaks to how the Center assisted in helping him find that identity. Asian-American experience ; Community building ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Cultural expression ; Filipino-American experience ; Identity ; Inclusion 1156 The Cross-Cultural Center moves to a bigger and more visible location Franklin describes the Center moving to the breezeway of the Administrative Building (then Craven Hall), and what being in that space did for the Cross-Cultural Center. Franklin also recalls how the peer educators engaged students who hadn't been in the space previously. California State University San Marcos ; Campus activism ; Murals 1290 Food insecurity and demand for identity-specific spaces Franklin recalls when he was a student the issue of food insecurity on campus, and the need for a food pantry. Franklin also describes the growing demand for additional identity-focused spaces on campus. California State University San Marcos ; Food insecurity ; Pride Center ; Representation ; Women in Gender Equity Center 1437 Evolution of the Cross-Cultural Center Franklin offers his thoughts on how the Cross-Cultural Center has evolved and how he sees the Center evolving in the future, as well as how it coexists with other spaces.. Identity ; Marketing ; Representation 1582 Impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on Franklin's career Franklin explains the impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on his career, and how it informed his future educational and professional growth. Franklin also describes the benefits and challenges of working in higher education in California. California State University San Marcos ; Careers in higher education ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Higher education ; Student affairs 1712 Highlights from Franklin's time at the Cross-Cultural Center Franklin recalls facilitating the All People's Celebration, and working as a coordinator emergency hire where he evolved from a student to a young professional. Franklin also describes working on a mural near the Center. All People's Celebration ; Asher University ; California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Murals 1945 Franklin returns to CSUSM in 2009 to work for Extended Learning Programs. Franklin recalls working for Extended Learning and working in Student Affairs, and discusses working in Student Affairs during the 2020 COVID-19 Pandemic. California State University San Marcos-- Extended Learning ; Covid-19 pandemic ; Higher education ; Professional experience ; Virtual learning mp4 Jay Franklin was a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM during the early days of the program and university. He was instrumental in the creation of many of the programs and early marketing campaigns for the center, and worked as a peer educator to provide what we would now call intersectional support for LGBTQIA students. Eventually, he made his way back to CSUSM, where he now works in the Dean of Student Affairs office. Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I' ; m here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Jay Franklin here at the California State University San Marcos for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Wednesday, April 12th, 2023, and the time is 2:16. Hi, Jay. Uh, why don' ; t you go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your early life and family. Franklin: Woo. Awesome. Jay Franklin, uh, associate director of new student and family programs. Um, early life, uh, let' ; s see. I grew up military. My dad was in the Navy for 24 years, so every two to three years we moved around a lot. Um, but I was fortunate enough to stay for a significant amount of time in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Um, and then had the opportunity to move out to California in 1999. California is my birth state, so when that opportunity came up, I moved away from Virginia Beach. My entire family network is in Virginia, Virginia Beach, and I just wanted to start anew out here in San Diego. Meyer: Nice. So, what was your educational journey like? Franklin: The typical " ; Go to high school and you should go to college" ; . So I, I tried that route, or that was my original plan. My senior year, my junior year of high school, I was fortunate enough to get into a program that allowed me to go to beauty school, uh, cosmetology school. So I was able to use those elective units or those blocks of time to go to cosmetology school. So, by the time I graduated high school, I already had my cosmetology license. So, I went, I did the apply for college, uh, went to a local community college, Tidewater Community College in Virginia Beach, Virginia. And, realized as a full-time hair stylist, I was doing a lot like that whole typical, like, how many hours -- should I work full-time, part-time, go to school full-time, part-time? And, I did full-time both, and, of course that doesn' ; t work out. And I felt as though I, in one of my classes, I' ; ll never forget, my sociology instructor--professor--was sharing like how much they made. And I' ; m like, you make that? And I' ; m like, and you got your doctor whatever! And it just really was jarring and shocking for me because here I am, a professional hair stylist, uh, working in a, in a salon and also doing hair on the side. I was pulling in basically what that faculty member was saying was their salary. So I was like, why am I here? And it just wasn' ; t a good fit. Um, so I didn' ; t go-- I. I dropped out eventually. Actually, I, uh, history shows that I have a whole bunch of " ; WU" ; s [Withdrawal Unauthorized]. So I did the first semester, did great. Got A' ; s and B' ; s and, and A minus or something? Uh, and, and then my second semester I was like, that was when I encountered my sociology instructor and was basically sharing their, their salary. And I was like, I need to get outta here. So I just thought, just not showing up, you' ; re done with class, and the, the university would just disenroll you and yeah, of course I' ; ll disenroll you with " ; WU" ; s, so, those are F' ; s. And so my second semester at Tidewater Community College had a whole bunch of F' ; s. Fast forward many years, at least a decade, and I started to see the number " ; 30," ; my age was coming up as thirty. And I' ; m like, oh my gosh, it' ; s time to actually go back to school and get a career. And yeah, I have a great job doing hair, but that' ; s a job. I really wanted to finish what I originally set out to do and go to college and get my bachelor' ; s degree, and did it. So I went back to school and was a non-traditional student. Uh, I didn' ; t want to go to SDSU, um, and was very adamant in not being, " ; hey, number 262 in the back row." ; Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: I wanted to be a person, and found out that, uh, Cal State San Marcos was a brand-new school, smaller class sizes, and I, I didn' ; t wanna leave San Diego. Worked so hard to get here and stay here. So, at that time, my partner and I were looking around for houses or condos to buy, and we just couldn' ; t find anything in San Diego, ' ; cause it was 2004 and the prices were just going up and up and up. So, fortunately, fortunately the housing or condo prices in San Marcos were affordable at that time. So, and telling my counselor at City College, she' ; s like, " ; Oh, yeah, that actually works out better for you when you apply because you' ; ll be in the service area of Cal State San Marcos." ; So it, it worked out. And I was able to come to Cal State San Marcos as an undergrad non-traditional student, in fall of 2005, been here ever since. I mean, I did leave for a little bit and, uh, I did my undergrad, my grad here, but there was a stint as soon as I finished my undergrad, I didn' ; t wanna work in a salon and I wanted a job that leveraged my bachelor' ; s degree and was lucky enough to get a job at Bridgepoint Education or Asher University, and was a matriculation coordinator-- basically a transcript evaluator. Um, did that for a couple months, I think almost a year. And then worked my way up to Articulation Specialist-- which is like assist.org, it' ; s like your articulation specialist, uh, counselor transfer counselor 24/7-- and was able to do that for Asher University. And while at a Christmas party for an office at Cal State San Marcos-- my partner worked at Cal State San Marcos at that time, so I was attending his--- was a Christmas party and was sharing with the dean at that time what I did. And it just worked out that they were having an emergency position that they said, " ; Hey, you should apply!" ; And the rest is history, as I say, I apply and then have been here ever since. So I did have a, a gap in my Cal State San Marcos life of about a year and a half where I worked externally. But boomeranged back to come to Cal State San Marcos, Meyer: Everything comes back to-- Franklin: Totally, totally. Meyer: So, during your time at, at Cal State San Marcos, when you were an undergrad, how did you become aware of and become involved with the Cross-Cultural Center? Franklin: I love it. Okay. So, um, in 2005, I was a non-traditional student, so I knew that yes, the, the university has the mission statement, vision statement, campus core values, and I, I moved up from Hillcrest, so I was very out and comfortable with myself and eagerly looked for the student organization for the LGBTQ+ community, and discovered it and found it and joined their group and was like, " ; Look, we need to have some marketing. We need some banners, we need rebranding." ; And I just, I just came, I, I wasn' ; t a, a typical student. So I, I went to school and wanted to get the best out of my experience and basically became a marketing director for the student org, and then branded us and allowed us to get some visibility on campus because we wanted to increase our membership. And in that, I' ; m gonna say either that fall or early that spring, uh, our banner for our student org was stolen. And I thought it was very odd that a university would lose or allow something like that to occur. And, I thought it was really jarring to be called " ; faggot" ; on campus. And it was just really jarring. It was, it was very strange. It really reminded me of growing up in Virginia Beach, Virginia with the 700 Club in the background, Christian Coalition [of America]-- campus, yes, is supposed to be inclusive, and I just didn' ; t get that vibe. I also was very comfortable in my being gay and championing the LGBTQ+ community causes up here. And to have our banner stolen, I immediately, like, " ; Who do I go to?" ; And our student org was like, " ; Oh my gosh, what are we gonna do?" ; I' ; m like, the university has protocols, there' ; s rules and policies, so we' ; ll just work our way up to food chain to find out who' ; s responsible for our safety and like, what, what can be done about this banner being stolen? And that was how I encountered Student Life and Leadership, because our student organization is founded out of Student Life and Leadership, so they were responsible for the student organization. And then it also allowed me to, out of SLL-- Student Life and leadership-- it also allowed me to encounter the Multicultural Programs Office or the Cross-Cultural Center, as it was slowly evolving into -- So, that was my first encounter, was like, " ; Hey, what' ; s going on?" ; Like, our student org didn' ; t even know that the Cross-Cultural Center or the Multicultural Programs Office existed. So it was an opportunity for me to learn more about multicultural programs and the Cross-Cultural Center, but it also, uh, was allowed the student org to gain additional information and resources. So that' ; s how we encountered it. That' ; s how I personally discovered it. Meyer: So, what was the role of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time? I understand that it was like the university just starting out. Did it have more leeway or, or sway? Franklin: Um, I don' ; t, I wouldn' ; t say more leeway or sway. It was just a, to be honest, it was the reason why I was drawn into the space is there was, there were folks that looked like me, so it was predominantly Filipino or Asian, the folks that hung out in the center or the-- it was really a oversized closet, I want to say, like, as big as this room that we' ; re in. So, it was a small closet, and a conference room, and it was filled with people that looked like me. We had the same conversations about our identity groups, and it was just a really welcoming environment. I was like, wow, it' ; s refreshing to be in here versus the external campus. I mean, back then my hair was platinum or purple or pink or cheetah spots. It was whatever I felt like, I was a professional hairstylist so my hair changed often. It was like, see-through, iridescent, like-- so, in that, in that space, I was able to just be myself. And then other students started sharing their stories and some students started coming out, and-- it was-- I, I wouldn' ; t say there was like any sway or anything. It was just a spot that made me feel better. And then because I was in the center, more students were accessing the resources and, yeah. Our student org basically started leveraging the center-- Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: For resources for the student org, because Student Life and Leadership has resources for student orgs, but so does--the Cross-- or the Multicultural Programs, Cross-Cultural Center has resources. So, once I knew that those things were available, our student org definitely started leveraging them and, and holding space and, and using resources. Like we made, we came up with marketing campaigns, events to help not just our student org professionally develop in leadership, but also sharing some of our lessons learned with other student orgs, like, Black Student Union, American Indian Student Association, MEChA [Movimentio Estudiantil Chicano de Azltlán], APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American], or-- I' ; m trying to remember all the other ones-- but Asian Pacific Islander student org, Vietnamese student org [Vietnamese Student Association]. So, all these different student orgs, their membership were students. And I felt really out of place because I was an older, non-traditional student, and I was pushing-- I wouldn' ; t say pushing the envelope-- but I was just encouraging more leadership development, and sharing resources with students, saying, " ; These are things that you' ; ve paid for, you can leverage them and use them to the benefit of not just your student org, but for you professionally and get some-- grow your skillset." ; Meyer: Mm-hmm. So, I understand you became a peer educator because you were so motivated to like, keep helping other students learn about the things they could utilize on campus. Um, could you talk a little bit about the peer educator program? Franklin: Yeah. So there were, I wanna say five of us. Uh, I' ; m looking at, let me look at my pictures. Meyer: No, that' ; s totally fine. Franklin: There, there was Cheryl, Stephanie, Diana, myself, and Brittany, and that was May of 2007. I was just looking, referencing a picture of us as a group. As a peer educator, I kind of feel like, because I was a non-traditional student, I really looked at this as a job, as a-- I didn' ; t know that student affairs was actually a career until encountering Student Life and Leadership in the Multicultural Programs. I was like, " ; This is a job?" ; Like, this is amazing! So, I was living the life as if I was already employed by the university and really took ownership and pride of being a peer educator-- Um, but, of course I wanted to ensure that we all shared the, the workload. So, each of us had a specialization. Mine was LGBTQ specific, the four other peer educators focused on their areas. I just took a bit more ownership of like, making sure that-- I, I wouldn' ; t say I was a lead, but I just wanted to make sure that our, our projects were polished? And, when looking around at other student orgs and other peer educators on campus, I wanted to share all the resources, and the presentation of this is what Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center, this is the content we put out. It' ; s branded, it has a, a similar look and feel. It didn' ; t look hodgepodge. Like, this was years ago before the advent of Canva. Everybody loves Canva right now because templates galore and it all looks professional. Back then we didn' ; t have it. So, the peer educators basically came up with our own template that we said, okay, this is how we' ; re, the conversation was like, how do we make it look professional and not student org, and not just disjointed from every event to the next event? There was some side sort of cohesion, a template that looked like when you looked at a, a flyer or a poster, you knew, oh, that' ; s a Cross-Cultural Center event. Meyer: Hmm. What kind of support and programmings were, were offered for students that got involved with the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] when the organization was still, you know, coming up when you were, when you were a peer educator. What kind of, like, outreach was taking place to the students? Franklin: Kinda outreach. Ooh, that' ; s a good one. Uh, so the peer educators essentially were their own marketing machines. Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So, each of our groups, we were leveraged, uh, to dip into our own communities-- Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So, when it came to marketing efforts and how do we reach the greater campus body-- I mean, there was, I wanna say 7,400 students on campus at that time? 74[00] to 8,000 students. So, by being already a student leader in the LGBTQ group, our and each of the peer educators being members of their own, identity group, student orgs, it really helped the marketing efforts target those communities. And it was cross-pollination essentially. Like, everybody-- we synced our events to ensure that we weren' ; t overlapping anybody else' ; s events, so that we could pull our communities to each one of them so we could be strategic in our marketing efforts. Meyer: How did the Cross-Cultural Center help you further develop that sense of community and help others find it? I know you' ; ve already touched on that a bit, but, um, yeah. Finding a community on campus-- Franklin: How did it help me find a community? Meyer: I mean, you, you already had, like you said, a community, but, how did-- how did you help bring other people into that in ways that they might not have been introduced to? Franklin: Perfect. Okay. Um, a good way of looking at it is ensuring that a lot of our events had food, because we knew that food draws students. So, one strategy was always going to the director of Student Life Leadership, was always asking for additional funds for < ; laughs> ; so we could buy pizza, hotdogs, to ensure our events had food, because we knew that food was the-- a driving motivator for students to attend anything. So, food was important. And then, money was another way of, of pulling in students that didn' ; t leverage the Cross-Cultural Center or Student Life and Leadership was helping students-- like, we were doing workshops and helping students, obtain funding from-- the Cross-Cultural Center had funds, ASI [Associated Students Incorporated, student government] had funds, the Vice President of Student Affairs had funds, so there was like $500 pockets of money that you could apply for in fall or for spring, or for the entire academic year. So, we came up with workshops to help students apply for those programs, funding opportunities so that they could actually get money. So, we knew food was important and money was important. So, we held workshops, helped students actually like, oh, I' ; ve never applied for money before for student org. We' ; re like, " ; don' ; t worry, we can help you walk through this process." ; So, food and money was one way to bring in students that never knew that the Cross-Cultural Center existed, or even Student Life and Leadership existed. Meyer: What is the overall significance, in your opinion, of having a space like that, that champions, uh, underrepresented students on campus and gives them a place to be themselves and hold space? Franklin: Yeah, it was, it was a family experience. For me, I, I really, uh, didn' ; t, as I grew up military, so every two to three years would move around. So, I really didn' ; t have this whole Asian, Filipino, identity experience. But hanging out in the center really helped me come, come to peace or come to terms with my half-Filipino, half-Asian background. And it helped me find space. And then by being comfortable, I guess others, seeing myself being authentic allowed them to just be themselves. Like, it was a really family experience in a sense that when you walked into the center-- I was looking at some of the pictures from back of the day. Some students just like took off their shoes. Like when you talk about a family or cross-cultural experience, some at, when they go home, they take off their shoes before they enter their house. So, I thought it was the strangest and coolest thing. And, and looking back, I saw a picture where there was some students without their shoes on. I' ; m like, " ; Oh my gosh, I totally forgot about that." ; So, I, it was a space for students to be themselves, and the more students that went into the Cross-Cultural Center to-- it always felt like there was a party. Like, there was a sort of celebration in the center, like we packed the space and, and, and not just packing the space, it was always fun. And when we moved from Craven Hall, now the Administrative Building, it' ; s that small little conference room that' ; s as big as this space. We moved into the breezeway of the administrative building, and the door into the Cross-Cultural Center was in the breezeway where all the murals are at, at Cal State San Marcos. So, whenever we were holding space and taking up space and having some dialogue, whenever the door was open, it echoed inside. I think it was like a strategic way of the director that time to put it in that space, because it was front and center. Everybody that walked through that hallway, the sound just increased because it was in a hallway-- a breezeway. And when people looked into the space and saw the fun you were having, it was-- the natural conversation was like, our question was like, " ; What' ; s going on in there? And how could I join it?" ; So, it was always packed, it was always welcomed. The peer educators, as soon as somebody walked by, looked into the space, our, our goal was to engage with them immediately. So if you looked into the door of the Cross-Cultural Center, it was like, " ; Hi! Welcome into our space! We' ; ve got this and we' ; ve got that." ; Just, it was always a welcoming and inclusive atmosphere, total family. Like if, if a student didn' ; t know it was here, that meant they never visited Cougar Central or visited the Financial Aid Office. Like, in order to get to that, that office, that was one of the main thoroughfares at breezeway with the murals is where the party was happening. Meyer: Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like some of the activism efforts were just getting kids in the door so they could learn and, and, yeah-- enjoy, enjoy the space if they previously hadn' ; t felt it on campus before. Can you recount in an instance when something you learned at the CCC, maybe it opened your eyes to something you hadn' ; t thought about before, something just hadn' ; t crossed your mind? Some-- um-- maybe some issue you hadn' ; t realized that underrepresented students were having on campus, that you just hadn' ; t-- Franklin: The, the food, the-- definitely the food insecurity. < ; removing glasses> ; I' ; m, I' ; m not gonna be looking at my phone or a laptop. Food insecurity was a big one for me. As a non-traditional student, I didn' ; t have that worry. I didn' ; t have that concern. That was early conversations of like, " ; Where' ; s our food pantry? Other campuses have food pantries, but not Cal State San Marcos." ; So, for me, I thought that was really odd that here we are, we have a space for students, but we don' ; t have, like, a food pantry to allow students to get access to it. So that was, goes back to my earlier response of like, have food and students will show up. So, knowing that students need food, and holding events to that had food was a major draw. But yeah, it was a big shocker to find out that food insecurity was a big deal back then. I mean, it still is now. There is a food pantry and there' ; s food pantries all around. But, back then it was like, yeah, we know it' ; s a problem, but that' ; s so new and our campus is still growing, that we can only focus on this one space. And yes, the Cross-Cultural Center was one space, and there were other many spaces on campus, but because it was this Cross-Cultural Center and filled with-- the line back then was like first one in gets to own the space, so the Asian identified groups would pack the room and they' ; re like, " ; This is the Asian Center!" ; And I' ; m like, " ; This is a Cross-Cultural Center." ; Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So, the conversation also started to get out where students were like, " ; Well, where' ; s my center?" ; and " ; Where' ; s my center?" ; and Pride Center of the-- like, LGBT community was like, " ; Where' ; s our center?" ; And, it just started, " ; Where' ; s the Women in Gender Equity Center?" ; So, because of the fun and the joy that was a party-like atmosphere, other, other students were like, " ; Uh, where' ; s my space?" ; And, so, that was a bit jarring for a campus from my perspective to not have all spaces, but also no time and place-- like, the university was still pretty young. Like, campuses just don' ; t pop up and have everything all at once. It has to be responsive to the community that evolves and grows there. And Cal State San Marcos has done that. Meyer: Right. Wait for the community to ask for what they need rather than just tell them what they need. Franklin: Yep. Meyer: What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with these other centers? Franklin: I, it' ; s-- Meyer: It' ; s a, it' ; s a hard question, yeah-- Franklin: Yeah. So, because they' ; re all, all these different centers are very specific to an identity group. The Cross-Cultural Center is -- I don' ; t know if they would take the lead or, um, I don' ; t know. It' ; s a, it' ; s a central hub that-- and the first center that, it' ; s been here. Just because it' ; s been here the longest doesn' ; t mean it has to stay that way. So, watching it evolve and grow, and how it collaborates with other centers has been really important. So, I don' ; t know. I don' ; t know if that answers your question. Meyer: Mm-hmm. No, it does. It does, yeah. Franklin: Once its role, its-- Meyer: There' ; s no right answer to the question. Yeah. Yeah. It' ; s exactly-- building off that, what direction do you think the CCC should grow in? What, what areas do you see room for improvement in students that could be better served, or maybe--- you know, yeah. Franklin: Yeah. It' ; s one of those, like-- oh, it' ; s almost like a innovation hub-- Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: And a business incubator. So, when you look at it from... I' ; m going, I' ; m gonna dip back into the marketing hat--- it starts off as an incubator group for students that want to form community, and, once that group has been given the energy and the resources that they need, and the-- the sense of, you can advocate for yourself and advocate--. and that advocation gets you, it doesn' ; t get you a center, but it helps consolidate your voice so that you can move the students and empower the students to ask and request for space. So, yeah, I, I look at the Cross-Cultural Center as like a, a identity group incubation center. So, students leverage a space, become empowered, and then get what they need and go up to leadership or to student leadership-- ASI--- and say, " ; Hey, look, where' ; s our space? Why don' ; t we have it X, Y, and Z? Like, we' ; ve been asking for it for this long." ; Like, it' ; s a, it' ; s a great spot to start. Meyer: I understand you still work in--- of course, you work on Cal State San Marcos campus, and I just wanted to ask about what ways that your experience and your time with the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] helped shape your outlook and your professional life? Franklin: Uh, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I wouldn' ; t have known that student affairs was a job. Meyer: Yeah. Franklin: And, yeah, so Cross-Cultural Center really impacted my career trajectory. I, I didn' ; t know that this, I didn' ; t--- when I went to Cal State San Marcos, I did not know that you could work in higher education. And I didn' ; t know that was even a major. And, there' ; s an entire master' ; s degree around student affairs, and I' ; m like, this is cool. I myself didn' ; t go that route because I was already a non-traditional student. I came with a skill set that I would' ; ve already learned in the student affairs master' ; s program. I stayed at Cal State San Marcos, and I got a master' ; s of education and just made it my own and focused on LGBT-specific stuff. But, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I would not have known that there' ; s a student affairs professional career. I wouldn' ; t have known to actually work in higher education. And then this whole concept of like, you' ; re a state employee. Like, I didn' ; t-- like when I originally said, " ; Oh, gosh, I' ; m about to be 30," ; it' ; s--- " ; I need to look for retirement!" ; I didn' ; t know that working for the state of California, the retirement is, like, this unicorn that doesn' ; t exist anymore. So, like, private businesses don' ; t even offer half of which you get as a state employee. And, and that comes with a, a rub as well, because when you' ; re a new professional in, student affairs or just in in higher education, you have to, you have to put in your, your dues and start at the bottom and work your way up, learn the skillsets, apply for another job if you see one that better fits you grow within your role. But all of those things I would' ; ve never known about had it not been for the Cross-Cultural Center. So, for me, it really had a huge impact on my personal life and professional career as well. Meyer: I understand that you and a lot of the peer educators became really good friends, and I was just wondering if either with them or with other students at the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center], if there' ; s any like, great memories of the retreats or any of the events that you wanted to share, or just talk about. Franklin: Ooh, great events. Facilitating All People' ; s Celebration was always a, fun-- just because it was a culminating award ceremony to recognize other student leaders on campus for various social justice awards. That was really cool. A big one for me was, and I still see it today, is my first professional role in the Cross-Cultural Center. There was a gap in between my undergrad and my master' ; s program. There was a, a, a gap in professional service. So basically, the director or the co-direct, uh, assistant director at the time of the Cross-Cultural Center had left, no longer worked for the university. And the director of, Student Life, the leadership said, " ; Hey, uh, because you' ; re super engaged as a peer educator and you finally finished your undergrad, we could-- there' ; s this emergency hire position that we could hire you for three months or six months, but it ends at six months." ; There' ; s, there' ; s no, we' ; re--- we just need you to hold the spot, keep the seat warm, and keep the processes and the function of the Cross-Cultural Center moving forward because you know all the peer educators and you' ; ve been in this role-- and a lot of the peer educators graduated and a new set came in. But the ones that had didn' ; t graduate that were there, it was a really good opportunity for a good three to six months to be engaged in the student work where I evolved from student to young professional. And a big event that I had to do was create this mural, and I don' ; t know how many panels it was, but it was maybe a hundred different pieces. And it was this giant picture, and it was divided into little one-foot-by-one-foot squares, or 12-inch-by-12-inch squares. And it made this huge mural and one giant design, but everybody got a one-foot-by-one-foot portion of it, and they got to paint it and add their own flare to the image. Because, once pulled back together, it would show a, a great--- it was like a kaleidoscope of all kinds of different perspectives, even though we knew it was one giant mural but everybody had their own little one-foot-by-one-foot square to add their own flavor and to add their own, this is Jay' ; s square, or this was Stephanie' ; s square. It was really a fun experience, to do a mural that' ; s still on campus. And I see it, while it might not be in the Cross-Cultural Center, I' ; ve watched this mural move from office, or Dean' ; s conference room to Dean' ; s conference room, and it' ; s being used as backdrops for, for pictures around campus. So I think it' ; s just so neat to see, being a part of the start, that it doesn' ; t end, like, the-- I' ; ve left my mark, or the peer educators have left their mark, and that, that thing, that mural is still being leveraged today. It' ; s just pretty awesome. Meyer: That' ; s really cool. So you were, you were basically an interim director? For a little while? Franklin: I, I wouldn' ; t say a director-- Meyer: Program lead or something? Franklin: Coordinator. Meyer: Coordinator. Okay. Franklin: And yeah, I like to say, " ; Well, the director, the associate director left on the--" ; of course, no. Titles mean nothing. Meyer: Yeah. Franklin: But it was-- I, I definitely enjoyed that first experience in Student Affairs. And once I got into Student Affairs and that six months ended, it coincided with me getting hired at Asher University. And-- that is not student affairs, it was just transcript analysis. And then, coming back to Cal State San Marcos in fall of [20]09, working for Extended Learning, the self-support unit of the university, they don' ; t receive any state funds. And it was ten-- a decade of my experience was in self-support. And then, when the pandemic hit, my skillset got repurposed, and off to Student Affairs I went, and now I' ; m back in Student Affairs. So it' ; s like, really full circle again, like yeah. It' ; s pretty wild. Meyer: Yeah. So, um, I know it' ; s not related to the Cross-Cultural Center, but could you talk a little bit about directing Student Affairs during the pandemic? Franklin: Yeah. Uh, it was, I was basically supporting the director, the inaugural director of the Success Coaching Program and Office of Coaching Success. And, it was basically-- my skillset was leveraging a database to match 1500-plus students with-- I want to say-- eighteen success coaches? We' ; re a unionized environment, so, we had full-time staff, half-time staff and quarter-time staff. We had 1500 incoming first-year students that we needed to engage with and connect that student to Cal State San Marcos, even though we were in a virtual environment. So, leveraging technology appropriately. We sent text messages, of course, we called and sent emails, but as we know for sure, students or students in general don' ; t read emails and they didn' ; t know pick up calls from people that they don' ; t know. So, sending memes to students to get them engaged, and we knew what the life cycle was like, because there' ; s only sixteen weeks in a semester and we knew of certain in intervals in the semester, students like need to fill out their financial aid, meet with an academic advisor, check in to see how you' ; re doing, how are they engaging or finding a sense of community. So, it goes back to that community feeling. While it might not be a Cross-Cultural Center specific, engaging in with a student to help them find their, their sense of being, or their sense of place, or their sense of connection-- connecting to community was what we were able to do when the pandemic hit, helping the students find their place. Even though it was virtual. Meyer: It sounds like you' ; ve always been doing that. Yeah. It sounds like you' ; ve been doing that since the first day you set foot on campus, just helping other students find their place. That' ; s really cool. Well, I just wanted to thank you so much for, for coming in and doing this interview and, yeah, that' ; s all the questions I have for today. But, thank you! Franklin: That' ; s awesome. Thank you for having me. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. 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Title
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Franklin, Jay. Interview April 12, 2023.
Description
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Jay Franklin was a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM during the early days of the program and university. He was instrumental in the creation of many of the programs and early marketing campaigns for the center, and worked as a peer educator to provide what we would now call intersectional support for LGBTQ+ students. Eventually, he made his way back to CSUSM, where he now works in the Dean of Student Affairs office.
Identifier
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SC027-026
Subject
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California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs
Education, Higher
Human rights
LGBTQ+ activism
Date
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2023-04-12
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video
Creator
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Jay Franklin
Contributor
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Madeleine Meyer
Coverage
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San Marcos (Calif.)
Virginia Beach (Va.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Jay Franklin
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving image
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
LGBTQIA+ experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e62624fb1bdfebb2252e2ea132ab1d6e.pdf
a47afc957202c225a5327331d4f153df
PDF Text
Text
JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
Meyer:
My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Jay Franklin here at
the California State University San Marcos for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is
Wednesday, April 12th, 2023, and the time is 2:16. Hi, Jay. Uh, why don't you go ahead and introduce
yourself and tell us a little bit about your early life and family.
Franklin:
Woo. Awesome. Jay Franklin, uh, associate director of new student and family programs. Um, early life,
uh, let's see. I grew up military. My dad was in the Navy for 24 years, so every two to three years we
moved around a lot. Um, but I was fortunate enough to stay for a significant amount of time in Virginia
Beach, Virginia. Um, and then had the opportunity to move out to California in 1999. California is my
birth state, so when that opportunity came up, I moved away from Virginia Beach. My entire family
network is in Virginia, Virginia Beach, and I just wanted to start anew out here in San Diego.
Meyer:
Nice. So, what was your educational journey like?
Franklin:
The typical ”Go to high school and you should go to college”. So I, I tried that route, or that was my
original plan. My senior year, my junior year of high school, I was fortunate enough to get into a
program that allowed me to go to beauty school, uh, cosmetology school. So I was able to use those
elective units or those blocks of time to go to cosmetology school. So, by the time I graduated high
school, I already had my cosmetology license. So, I went, I did the apply for college, uh, went to a local
community college, Tidewater Community College in Virginia Beach, Virginia. And, realized as a full-time
hair stylist, I was doing a lot like that whole typical, like, how many hours -- should I work full-time, parttime, go to school full-time, part-time? And, I did full-time both, and, of course that doesn't work out.
And I felt as though I, in one of my classes, I'll never forget, my sociology instructor—professor--was
sharing like how much they made. And I'm like, you make that? And I'm like, and you got your doctor
whatever! And it just really was jarring and shocking for me because here I am, a professional hair
stylist, uh, working in a, in a salon and also doing hair on the side. I was pulling in basically what that
faculty member was saying was their salary. So I was like, why am I here? And it just wasn't a good fit.
Um, so I didn't go-- I. I dropped out eventually. Actually, I, uh, history shows that I have a whole bunch
of “WU”s [Withdrawal Unauthorized]. So I did the first semester, did great. Got A's and B's and, and A
minus or something? Uh, and, and then my second semester I was like, that was when I encountered my
sociology instructor and was basically sharing their, their salary.
And I was like, I need to get outta here. So I just thought, just not showing up, you're done with class,
and the, the university would just disenroll you and yeah, of course I'll disenroll you with “WU”s, so,
those are F’s. And so my second semester at Tidewater Community College had a whole bunch of F's.
Fast forward many years, at least a decade, and I started to see the number “30,” my age was coming up
as thirty. And I'm like, oh my gosh, it's time to actually go back to school and get a career. And yeah, I
have a great job doing hair, but that's a job. I really wanted to finish what I originally set out to do and
go to college and get my bachelor's degree, and did it. So I went back to school and was a nontraditional student. Uh, I didn't want to go to SDSU, um, and was very adamant in not being, “hey,
number 262 in the back row.”
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Meyer:
Mm-hmm.
Franklin:
I wanted to be a person, and found out that, uh, Cal State San Marcos was a brand-new school, smaller
class sizes, and I, I didn't wanna leave San Diego. Worked so hard to get here and stay here. So, at that
time, my partner and I were looking around for houses or condos to buy, and we just couldn't find
anything in San Diego, ‘cause it was 2004 and the prices were just going up and up and up. So,
fortunately, fortunately the housing or condo prices in San Marcos were affordable at that time. So, and
telling my counselor at City College, she's like, “Oh, yeah, that actually works out better for you when
you apply because you'll be in the service area of Cal State San Marcos.”
So it, it worked out. And I was able to come to Cal State San Marcos as an undergrad non-traditional
student, in fall of 2005, been here ever since. I mean, I did leave for a little bit and, uh, I did my
undergrad, my grad here, but there was a stint as soon as I finished my undergrad, I didn't wanna work
in a salon and I wanted a job that leveraged my bachelor's degree and was lucky enough to get a job at
Bridgepoint Education or Asher University, and was a matriculation coordinator-- basically a transcript
evaluator. Um, did that for a couple months, I think almost a year. And then worked my way up to
Articulation Specialist-- which is like assist.org, it's like your articulation specialist, uh, counselor transfer
counselor 24/7-- and was able to do that for Asher University.
And while at a Christmas party for an office at Cal State San Marcos-- my partner worked at Cal State
San Marcos at that time, so I was attending his--- was a Christmas party and was sharing with the dean
at that time what I did. And it just worked out that they were having an emergency position that they
said, “Hey, you should apply!” And the rest is history, as I say, I apply and then have been here ever
since. So I did have a, a gap in my Cal State San Marcos life of about a year and a half where I worked
externally. But boomeranged back to come to Cal State San Marcos,
Meyer:
Everything comes back to-Franklin:
Totally, totally.
Meyer:
So, during your time at, at Cal State San Marcos, when you were an undergrad, how did you become
aware of and become involved with the Cross-Cultural Center?
Franklin:
I love it. Okay. So, um, in 2005, I was a non-traditional student, so I knew that yes, the, the university has
the mission statement, vision statement, campus core values, and I, I moved up from Hillcrest, so I was
very out and comfortable with myself and eagerly looked for the student organization for the LGBTQ+
community, and discovered it and found it and joined their group and was like, “Look, we need to have
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some marketing. We need some banners, we need rebranding.” And I just, I just came, I, I wasn't a, a
typical student. So I, I went to school and wanted to get the best out of my experience and basically
became a marketing director for the student org, and then branded us and allowed us to get some
visibility on campus because we wanted to increase our membership. And in that, I'm gonna say either
that fall or early that spring, uh, our banner for our student org was stolen.
And I thought it was very odd that a university would lose or allow something like that to occur. And, I
thought it was really jarring to be called “faggot” on campus. And it was just really jarring. It was, it was
very strange. It really reminded me of growing up in Virginia Beach, Virginia with the 700 Club in the
background, Christian Coalition [of America]… campus, yes, is supposed to be inclusive, and I just didn't
get that vibe. I also was very comfortable in my being gay and championing the LGBTQ+ community
causes up here. And to have our banner stolen, I immediately, like, “Who do I go to?” And our student
org was like, “Oh my gosh, what are we gonna do?” I'm like, the university has protocols, there's rules
and policies, so we'll just work our way up to food chain to find out who's responsible for our safety and
like, what, what can be done about this banner being stolen?
And that was how I encountered Student Life and Leadership, because our student organization is
founded out of Student Life and Leadership, so they were responsible for the student organization. And
then it also allowed me to, out of SLL-- Student Life and leadership-- it also allowed me to encounter the
Multicultural Programs Office or the Cross-Cultural Center, as it was slowly evolving into … So, that was
my first encounter, was like, “Hey, what's going on?” Like, our student org didn't even know that the
Cross-Cultural Center or the Multicultural Programs Office existed. So it was an opportunity for me to
learn more about multicultural programs and the Cross-Cultural Center, but it also, uh, was allowed the
student org to gain additional information and resources. So that's how we encountered it. That's how I
personally discovered it.
Meyer:
So, what was the role of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time? I understand that it was like the
university just starting out. Did it have more leeway or, or sway?
Franklin:
Um, I don't, I wouldn't say more leeway or sway. It was just a, to be honest, it was the reason why I was
drawn into the space is there was, there were folks that looked like me, so it was predominantly Filipino
or Asian, the folks that hung out in the center or the-- it was really a oversized closet, I want to say, like,
as big as this room that we're in. So, it was a small closet, and a conference room, and it was filled with
people that looked like me. We had the same conversations about our identity groups, and it was just a
really welcoming environment. I was like, wow, it's refreshing to be in here versus the external campus. I
mean, back then my hair was platinum or purple or pink or cheetah spots. It was whatever I felt like, I
was a professional hairstylist so my hair changed often. It was like, see-through, iridescent, like— so, in
that, in that space, I was able to just be myself. And then other students started sharing their stories and
some students started coming out, and… it was… I, I wouldn't say there was like any sway or anything. It
was just a spot that made me feel better. And then because I was in the center, more students were
accessing the resources and, yeah. Our student org basically started leveraging the center-Meyer:
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Mm-hmm.
Franklin:
For resources for the student org, because Student Life and Leadership has resources for student orgs,
but so does—the Cross-- or the Multicultural Programs, Cross-Cultural Center has resources. So, once I
knew that those things were available, our student org definitely started leveraging them and, and
holding space and, and using resources. Like we made, we came up with marketing campaigns, events to
help not just our student org professionally develop in leadership, but also sharing some of our lessons
learned with other student orgs, like, Black Student Union, American Indian Student Association, MEChA
[Movimentio Estudiantil Chicano de Azltlán], APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American], or-- I'm trying
to remember all the other ones-- but Asian Pacific Islander student org, Vietnamese student org
[Vietnamese Student Association].
So, all these different student orgs, their membership were students. And I felt really out of place
because I was an older, non-traditional student, and I was pushing-- I wouldn't say pushing the
envelope-- but I was just encouraging more leadership development, and sharing resources with
students, saying, “These are things that you've paid for, you can leverage them and use them to the
benefit of not just your student org, but for you professionally and get some-- grow your skillset.”
Meyer:
Mm-hmm. So, I understand you became a peer educator because you were so motivated to like, keep
helping other students learn about the things they could utilize on campus. Um, could you talk a little bit
about the peer educator program?
Franklin:
Yeah. So there were, I wanna say five of us. Uh, I'm looking at, let me look at my pictures.
Meyer:
No, that's totally fine.
Franklin:
There, there was Cheryl, Stephanie, Diana, myself, and Brittany, and that was May of 2007. I was just
looking, referencing a picture of us as a group. As a peer educator, I kind of feel like, because I was a
non-traditional student, I really looked at this as a job, as a-- I didn't know that student affairs was
actually a career until encountering Student Life and Leadership in the Multicultural Programs. I was like,
“This is a job?” Like, this is amazing! So, I was living the life as if I was already employed by the university
and really took ownership and pride of being a peer educator… Um, but, of course I wanted to ensure
that we all shared the, the workload.
So, each of us had a specialization. Mine was LGBTQ specific, the four other peer educators focused on
their areas. I just took a bit more ownership of like, making sure that… I, I wouldn't say I was a lead, but I
just wanted to make sure that our, our projects were polished? And, when looking around at other
student orgs and other peer educators on campus, I wanted to share all the resources, and the
presentation of this is what Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center, this is the content we put
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out. It's branded, it has a, a similar look and feel. It didn't look hodgepodge. Like, this was years ago
before the advent of Canva. Everybody loves Canva right now because templates galore and it all looks
professional. Back then we didn't have it. So, the peer educators basically came up with our own
template that we said, okay, this is how we're, the conversation was like, how do we make it look
professional and not student org, and not just disjointed from every event to the next event? There was
some side sort of cohesion, a template that looked like when you looked at a, a flyer or a poster, you
knew, oh, that's a Cross-Cultural Center event.
Meyer:
Hmm. What kind of support and programmings were, were offered for students that got involved with
the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] when the organization was still, you know, coming up when you were,
when you were a peer educator. What kind of, like, outreach was taking place to the students?
Franklin:
Kinda outreach. Ooh, that's a good one. Uh, so the peer educators essentially were their own marketing
machines.
Meyer:
Mm-hmm.
Franklin:
So, each of our groups, we were leveraged, uh, to dip into our own communities—
Meyer:
Mm-hmm.
Franklin:
So, when it came to marketing efforts and how do we reach the greater campus body-- I mean, there
was, I wanna say 7,400 students on campus at that time? 74[00] to 8,000 students. So, by being already
a student leader in the LGBTQ group, our and each of the peer educators being members of their own,
identity group, student orgs, it really helped the marketing efforts target those communities. And it was
cross-pollination essentially. Like, everybody-- we synced our events to ensure that we weren't
overlapping anybody else's events, so that we could pull our communities to each one of them so we
could be strategic in our marketing efforts.
Meyer:
How did the Cross-Cultural Center help you further develop that sense of community and help others
find it? I know you've already touched on that a bit, but, um, yeah. Finding a community on campus-Franklin:
How did it help me find a community?
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Meyer:
I mean, you, you already had, like you said, a community, but, how did-- how did you help bring other
people into that in ways that they might not have been introduced to?
Franklin:
Perfect. Okay. Um, a good way of looking at it is ensuring that a lot of our events had food, because we
knew that food draws students. So, one strategy was always going to the director of Student Life
Leadership, was always asking for additional funds for <laughs> so we could buy pizza, hotdogs, to
ensure our events had food, because we knew that food was the-- a driving motivator for students to
attend anything. So, food was important. And then, money was another way of, of pulling in students
that didn't leverage the Cross-Cultural Center or Student Life and Leadership was helping students-- like,
we were doing workshops and helping students, obtain funding from-- the Cross-Cultural Center had
funds, ASI [Associated Students Incorporated, student government] had funds, the Vice President of
Student Affairs had funds, so there was like $500 pockets of money that you could apply for in fall or for
spring, or for the entire academic year. So, we came up with workshops to help students apply for those
programs, funding opportunities so that they could actually get money. So, we knew food was important
and money was important. So, we held workshops, helped students actually like, oh, I've never applied
for money before for student org. We're like, “don't worry, we can help you walk through this process.”
So, food and money was one way to bring in students that never knew that the Cross-Cultural Center
existed, or even Student Life and Leadership existed.
Meyer:
What is the overall significance, in your opinion, of having a space like that, that champions, uh,
underrepresented students on campus and gives them a place to be themselves and hold space?
Franklin:
Yeah, it was, it was a family experience. For me, I, I really, uh, didn't, as I grew up military, so every two
to three years would move around. So, I really didn't have this whole Asian, Filipino, identity experience.
But hanging out in the center really helped me come, come to peace or come to terms with my halfFilipino, half-Asian background. And it helped me find space. And then by being comfortable, I guess
others, seeing myself being authentic allowed them to just be themselves. Like, it was a really family
experience in a sense that when you walked into the center-- I was looking at some of the pictures from
back of the day. Some students just like took off their shoes. Like when you talk about a family or crosscultural experience, some at, when they go home, they take off their shoes before they enter their
house.
So, I thought it was the strangest and coolest thing. And, and looking back, I saw a picture where there
was some students without their shoes on. I'm like, “Oh my gosh, I totally forgot about that.” So, I, it was
a space for students to be themselves, and the more students that went into the Cross-Cultural Center
to… it always felt like there was a party. Like, there was a sort of celebration in the center, like we
packed the space and, and, and not just packing the space, it was always fun. And when we moved from
Craven Hall, now the Administrative Building, it‘s that small little conference room that's as big as this
space. We moved into the breezeway of the administrative building, and the door into the CrossCultural Center was in the breezeway where all the murals are at, at Cal State San Marcos.
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So, whenever we were holding space and taking up space and having some dialogue, whenever the door
was open, it echoed inside. I think it was like a strategic way of the director that time to put it in that
space, because it was front and center. Everybody that walked through that hallway, the sound just
increased because it was in a hallway-- a breezeway. And when people looked into the space and saw
the fun you were having, it was-- the natural conversation was like, our question was like, “What's going
on in there? And how could I join it?” So, it was always packed, it was always welcomed. The peer
educators, as soon as somebody walked by, looked into the space, our, our goal was to engage with
them immediately. So if you looked into the door of the Cross-Cultural Center, it was like, “Hi! Welcome
into our space! We’ve got this and we've got that.” Just, it was always a welcoming and inclusive
atmosphere, total family. Like if, if a student didn't know it was here, that meant they never visited
Cougar Central or visited the Financial Aid Office. Like, in order to get to that, that office, that was one of
the main thoroughfares at breezeway with the murals is where the party was happening.
Meyer:
Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like some of the activism efforts were just getting kids in the door so they could
learn and, and, yeah-- enjoy, enjoy the space if they previously hadn't felt it on campus before. Can you
recount in an instance when something you learned at the CCC, maybe it opened your eyes to
something you hadn't thought about before, something just hadn't crossed your mind? Some-- um-maybe some issue you hadn't realized that underrepresented students were having on campus, that you
just hadn't-Franklin:
The, the food, the… definitely the food insecurity. <removing glasses> I'm, I'm not gonna be looking at
my phone or a laptop. Food insecurity was a big one for me. As a non-traditional student, I didn't have
that worry. I didn't have that concern. That was early conversations of like, “Where's our food pantry?
Other campuses have food pantries, but not Cal State San Marcos.” So, for me, I thought that was really
odd that here we are, we have a space for students, but we don't have, like, a food pantry to allow
students to get access to it. So that was, goes back to my earlier response of like, have food and
students will show up. So, knowing that students need food, and holding events to that had food was a
major draw. But yeah, it was a big shocker to find out that food insecurity was a big deal back then.
I mean, it still is now. There is a food pantry and there's food pantries all around. But, back then it was
like, yeah, we know it's a problem, but that's so new and our campus is still growing, that we can only
focus on this one space. And yes, the Cross-Cultural Center was one space, and there were other many
spaces on campus, but because it was this Cross-Cultural Center and filled with-- the line back then was
like first one in gets to own the space, so the Asian identified groups would pack the room and they're
like, “This is the Asian Center!” And I'm like, “This is a Cross-Cultural Center.”
Meyer:
Mm-hmm.
Franklin:
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So, the conversation also started to get out where students were like, “Well, where's my center?” and
“Where's my center?” and Pride Center of the-- like, LGBT community was like, “Where's our center?”
And, it just started, “Where's the Women in Gender Equity Center?” So, because of the fun and the joy
that was a party-like atmosphere, other, other students were like, “Uh, where's my space?” And, so,
that was a bit jarring for a campus from my perspective to not have all spaces, but also no time and
place-- like, the university was still pretty young. Like, campuses just don't pop up and have everything
all at once. It has to be responsive to the community that evolves and grows there. And Cal State San
Marcos has done that.
Meyer:
Right. Wait for the community to ask for what they need rather than just tell them what they need.
Franklin:
Yep.
Meyer:
What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with these other centers?
Franklin:
I, it's-Meyer:
It's a, it's a hard question, yeah-Franklin:
Yeah. So, because they're all, all these different centers are very specific to an identity group. The CrossCultural Center is … I don't know if they would take the lead or, um, I don't know. It's a, it's a central hub
that… and the first center that, it's been here. Just because it's been here the longest doesn't mean it
has to stay that way. So, watching it evolve and grow, and how it collaborates with other centers has
been really important. So, I don't know. I don't know if that answers your question.
Meyer:
Mm-hmm. No, it does. It does, yeah.
Franklin:
Once its role, its—
Meyer:
There's no right answer to the question. Yeah. Yeah. It's exactly… building off that, what direction do
you think the CCC should grow in? What, what areas do you see room for improvement in students that
could be better served, or maybe--- you know, yeah.
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Franklin:
Yeah. It's one of those, like… oh, it's almost like a innovation hub—
Meyer:
Mm-hmm.
Franklin:
And a business incubator. So, when you look at it from... I'm going, I'm gonna dip back into the
marketing hat--- it starts off as an incubator group for students that want to form community, and, once
that group has been given the energy and the resources that they need, and the-- the sense of, you can
advocate for yourself and advocate…. and that advocation gets you, it doesn't get you a center, but it
helps consolidate your voice so that you can move the students and empower the students to ask and
request for space. So, yeah, I, I look at the Cross-Cultural Center as like a, a identity group incubation
center. So, students leverage a space, become empowered, and then get what they need and go up to
leadership or to student leadership— ASI--- and say, “Hey, look, where's our space? Why don't we have
it X, Y, and Z? Like, we've been asking for it for this long.” Like, it's a, it's a great spot to start.
Meyer:
I understand you still work in--- of course, you work on Cal State San Marcos campus, and I just wanted
to ask about what ways that your experience and your time with the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] helped
shape your outlook and your professional life?
Franklin:
Uh, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I wouldn't have known that student affairs was a job.
Meyer:
Yeah.
Franklin:
And, yeah, so Cross-Cultural Center really impacted my career trajectory. I, I didn't know that this, I
didn't--- when I went to Cal State San Marcos, I did not know that you could work in higher education.
And I didn't know that was even a major. And, there's an entire master's degree around student affairs,
and I'm like, this is cool. I myself didn't go that route because I was already a non-traditional student. I
came with a skill set that I would've already learned in the student affairs master's program. I stayed at
Cal State San Marcos, and I got a master's of education and just made it my own and focused on LGBTspecific stuff. But, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I would not have known that there's a student
affairs professional career. I wouldn't have known to actually work in higher education. And then this
whole concept of like, you're a state employee. Like, I didn't-- like when I originally said, “Oh, gosh, I'm
about to be 30,” it's--- “I need to look for retirement!” I didn't know that working for the state of
California, the retirement is, like, this unicorn that doesn't exist anymore. So, like, private businesses
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don't even offer half of which you get as a state employee. And, and that comes with a, a rub as well,
because when you're a new professional in, student affairs or just in in higher education, you have to,
you have to put in your, your dues and start at the bottom and work your way up, learn the skillsets,
apply for another job if you see one that better fits you grow within your role. But all of those things I
would've never known about had it not been for the Cross-Cultural Center. So, for me, it really had a
huge impact on my personal life and professional career as well.
Meyer:
I understand that you and a lot of the peer educators became really good friends, and I was just
wondering if either with them or with other students at the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center], if there's any
like, great memories of the retreats or any of the events that you wanted to share, or just talk about.
Franklin:
Ooh, great events. Facilitating All People's Celebration was always a, fun-- just because it was a
culminating award ceremony to recognize other student leaders on campus for various social justice
awards. That was really cool. A big one for me was, and I still see it today, is my first professional role in
the Cross-Cultural Center. There was a gap in between my undergrad and my master's program. There
was a, a, a gap in professional service. So basically, the director or the co-direct, uh, assistant director at
the time of the Cross-Cultural Center had left, no longer worked for the university. And the director of,
Student Life, the leadership said, “Hey, uh, because you're super engaged as a peer educator and you
finally finished your undergrad, we could-- there's this emergency hire position that we could hire you
for three months or six months, but it ends at six months.”
There's, there's no, we're--- we just need you to hold the spot, keep the seat warm, and keep the
processes and the function of the Cross-Cultural Center moving forward because you know all the peer
educators and you've been in this role-- and a lot of the peer educators graduated and a new set came
in. But the ones that had didn't graduate that were there, it was a really good opportunity for a good
three to six months to be engaged in the student work where I evolved from student to young
professional. And a big event that I had to do was create this mural, and I don't know how many panels
it was, but it was maybe a hundred different pieces. And it was this giant picture, and it was divided into
little one-foot-by-one-foot squares, or 12-inch-by-12-inch squares.
And it made this huge mural and one giant design, but everybody got a one-foot-by-one-foot portion of
it, and they got to paint it and add their own flare to the image. Because, once pulled back together, it
would show a, a great--- it was like a kaleidoscope of all kinds of different perspectives, even though we
knew it was one giant mural but everybody had their own little one-foot-by-one-foot square to add their
own flavor and to add their own, this is Jay's square, or this was Stephanie’s square. It was really a fun
experience, to do a mural that's still on campus. And I see it, while it might not be in the Cross-Cultural
Center, I've watched this mural move from office, or Dean's conference room to Dean's conference
room, and it's being used as backdrops for, for pictures around campus. So I think it's just so neat to see,
being a part of the start, that it doesn't end, like, the… I've left my mark, or the peer educators have left
their mark, and that, that thing, that mural is still being leveraged today. It's just pretty awesome.
Meyer:
That's really cool. So you were, you were basically an interim director? For a little while?
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
10
2023-05-01
�JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
Franklin:
I, I wouldn't say a director-Meyer:
Program lead or something?
Franklin:
Coordinator.
Meyer:
Coordinator. Okay.
Franklin:
And yeah, I like to say, “Well, the director, the associate director left on the…” of course, no. Titles mean
nothing.
Meyer:
Yeah.
Franklin:
But it was-- I, I definitely enjoyed that first experience in Student Affairs. And once I got into Student
Affairs and that six months ended, it coincided with me getting hired at Asher University. And… that is
not student affairs, it was just transcript analysis. And then, coming back to Cal State San Marcos in fall
of [20]09, working for Extended Learning, the self-support unit of the university, they don't receive any
state funds. And it was ten-- a decade of my experience was in self-support. And then, when the
pandemic hit, my skillset got repurposed, and off to Student Affairs I went, and now I'm back in Student
Affairs. So it's like, really full circle again, like yeah. It's pretty wild.
Meyer:
Yeah. So, um, I know it's not related to the Cross-Cultural Center, but could you talk a little bit about
directing Student Affairs during the pandemic?
Franklin:
Yeah. Uh, it was, I was basically supporting the director, the inaugural director of the Success Coaching
Program and Office of Coaching Success. And, it was basically-- my skillset was leveraging a database to
match 1500-plus students with-- I want to say-- eighteen success coaches? We’re a unionized
environment, so, we had full-time staff, half-time staff and quarter-time staff. We had 1500 incoming
first-year students that we needed to engage with and connect that student to Cal State San Marcos,
even though we were in a virtual environment. So, leveraging technology appropriately. We sent text
messages, of course, we called and sent emails, but as we know for sure, students or students in general
don't read emails and they didn't know pick up calls from people that they don't know. So, sending
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
11
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�JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
memes to students to get them engaged, and we knew what the life cycle was like, because there's only
sixteen weeks in a semester and we knew of certain in intervals in the semester, students like need to
fill out their financial aid, meet with an academic advisor, check in to see how you're doing, how are
they engaging or finding a sense of community.
So, it goes back to that community feeling. While it might not be a Cross-Cultural Center specific,
engaging in with a student to help them find their, their sense of being, or their sense of place, or their
sense of connection-- connecting to community was what we were able to do when the pandemic hit,
helping the students find their place. Even though it was virtual.
Meyer:
It sounds like you've always been doing that. Yeah. It sounds like you've been doing that since the first
day you set foot on campus, just helping other students find their place. That's really cool. Well, I just
wanted to thank you so much for, for coming in and doing this interview and, yeah, that's all the
questions I have for today. But, thank you!
Franklin:
That's awesome. Thank you for having me.
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
12
2023-05-01
�
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Title
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Transcripts
Description
An account of the resource
Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Franklin, Jay. Interview transcript. April 12, 2023.
Description
An account of the resource
Jay Franklin was a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM during the early days of the program and university. He was instrumental in the creation of many of the programs and early marketing campaigns for the center, and worked as a peer educator to provide what we would now call intersectional support for LGBTQ+ students. Eventually, he made his way back to CSUSM, where he now works in the Dean of Student Affairs office.
This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos.
Creator
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Jay Franklin
Contributor
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Madeleine Meyer
Date
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2023-04-12
Subject
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California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs
Education, Higher
Human rights
LGBTQ+ activism
Coverage
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San Marcos (Calif.)
Virginia Beach (Va.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a>
Rights Holder
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Jay Franklin
License
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Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found.
Type
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Text
Identifier
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SC027-026
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
LGBTQIA+ experience