4 10 208 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Suzy Karasik Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Carol Graham OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GrahamCarol_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-04_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Graham, Carol. Interview November 4, 2022 SC027-028 0:57:21 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Master gardeners -- California -- San Diego County ; Gardening -- California -- San Diego County ; Crops -- Diseases and pests -- Biological control ; Organic farming ; University of California (System). Cooperative Extension ; San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station (Calif.) ; San Diego State University ; Encinitas (Calif.) ; North San Diego County Carol Graham Suzy Karasik mp4 GrahamCarol_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-04_access.mp4 1:|19(7)|31(3)|64(8)|98(15)|120(17)|143(6)|160(4)|192(7)|213(5)|238(9)|260(11)|278(6)|297(5)|311(5)|330(12)|351(7)|366(12)|378(16)|390(5)|408(9)|438(13)|468(11)|512(9)|545(9)|557(6)|597(15)|620(5)|661(5)|683(7)|704(6)|717(9)|742(5)|780(10)|797(11)|815(3)|832(12)|867(6)|885(8)|899(7)|931(11)|955(12)|972(13)|998(9)|1017(14)|1037(14)|1065(8)|1083(12)|1105(3)|1119(17)|1143(8)|1171(12)|1189(6)|1231(11)|1265(7)|1300(13)|1333(10)|1364(10)|1423(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/fbbe71e14ed9626f02df6a69bc6e6491.mp4 Other video English 0 Childhood and introduction to gardening Carol Graham recalls her childhood in San Diego, CA. Graham was born in North Claremont and explains that her mother introduced her to gardening. She explains that her mother planted fruit trees in their garden, and her experience gardening with her mother gave her the necessary tools to plant similar fruit trees in her current home in Encinitas, CA. She also briefly discusses her father’s career as Marine, which led their family to moving to Virginia for three years. Encinitas (Calif.) ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego (Calif.) ; U.S. Marines ; Virginia 0 191 College education/ Background in insects Carol Graham discusses her college education at San Diego State University. She earned a Bachelor’s degree in Zoology. She explains that she has always had an interest in animals and insects. She provides scientific background on the lady beetle and the mosquito to the interviewer, and explains the gardening and pest management education she provides to the community as a Master Gardener. She explains that many people are afraid of pests, or believe them to be harmful to plants and crops, and spray them with pesticides or kill them. Graham had also brought a few puppets to the interview, which she uses for a demonstration while discussing insects and pest management to the interviewer. Gardening ; Insects ; Lady beetles ; Master Gardeners ; Mosquitos ; Pest management ; San Diego State University ; Zoology 0 436 Four stages of pest management/ Pesticides Carol Graham describes the four stages of Integrated Pest Management: Identify, Understand, Assess, and Control. She also discusses the topic of pesticides. She explains that pesticides are the most toxic form of pest management, and Master Gardeners encourage others to try other forms of pest management first, such as cultural, physical, and biological approaches. Additionally, she provides other pieces of advice, such as purchasing pesticides that do not harm edible plants and containing the use of pesticides to only one area of a garden to prevent the spread of toxic chemicals. Graham had brought an Integrated Pest Management poster board to the interview, which she uses for the pest management demonstration portion of the interview. Environmentalism ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; Pest management ; Pesticides 0 959 Career at San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One Carol Graham discusses her career at San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One. She began working there a year after earning her Bachelor’s degree from San Diego State University in Zoology. She describes her work in decreasing the amount of shut downs at the onsite Nuclear Generating Station during the winter, which saved the company money. She explains that every eight weeks, the Nuclear Generating Station would shut down in order to heat-treat and chemical treat the water intake system and kill the biophaline. She describes her work of measuring the biophaline and proving that they were growing slower during the wintertime, which resulted in fewer shut downs. She also briefly explains gender equality at the Plant, working alongside her husband, and the equipment utilized in her work. Additionally, she reflects on the topic of nuclear power and explains that she would like to see the country move more into clean energy. Biology ; Biophaline ; Chemical-treating ; Clean energy ; Environmentalism ; Heat-treating ; Nuclear power ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego State University ; San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One ; Zoology 0 1437 Family background Carol Graham discusses her family’s background. She and her late husband moved to Encinitas, CA over forty years ago. She and her husband had one son together. Her son earned a PhD in astrophysics from Johns Hopkins. Graham also explains her family’s genealogy, with her parents having been born in Minnesota and Ohio, but previous generations originally came from Ireland and England. Her father, as a career Marine, was stationed at Camp Pendleton. Her in-laws, additionally, were originally from Missouri and Scotland. Her father-in-law’s work in the aircraft industry brought him to San Diego, CA. Aircraft industry ; Astrophysics ; Baltimore (Md.) ; Camp Pendleton ; Encinitas (Calif.) ; England ; Genealogy ; Germany ; Ireland ; Johns Hopkins University ; Kansas City (Mo.) ; Kirkcaldy (Scotland) ; Minneapolis (MN) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Ohio ; San Diego (Calif.) ; U.S. Marines 0 1654 Involvement with the Master Gardeners Carol Graham describes how she became involved with the Master Gardeners. After San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One shut down, she enrolled in the Master Gardener volunteer program through the University of California Cooperative Extension in 1983. Graham explains that the Master Gardener program is dedicated to distributing information for an environmentally responsible home and garden. Graham also discusses the importance of researching one’s own microclimate. Education in the microclimate of one’s area will aid in the understanding of which plants will be best suited for different microclimates. This will be beneficial to the healthy growth of plants and trees in one’s garden. Environmentalism ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; Microclimate ; University of California Cooperative Extension 0 1978 Accomplishments/ California drought Carol Graham reflects on her accomplishments, including having the opportunity to help many people through the Master Gardeners program and educating the community about growing their own food. She also discusses other topics related to gardening and the environment, such as edible flowers, the California drought, and drought-tolerant plants. Drought ; Drought tolerant plants ; Edible flowers ; Environmentalism ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego County (Calif.) 0 2442 Development of Encinitas, CA/ Catching gophers Carol Graham reflects on how she has seen Encinitas, CA develop over time. She comments that the number of local grocery markets has increased since she and her husband first moved to Encinitas. She also discusses other characteristics of the town and of North County, such as its farmers markets, community gardens, and container gardening. Graham also recounts her relationship with her neighbors in Encinitas, and how she has been labelled as the “gopher getter” because she has caught many gophers in the neighborhood. Community ; Community gardens ; Container gardening ; Encinitas (Calif.) ; Farmers markets ; Gardening ; Gophers ; Neighborhood ; Pest management ; The California Rare Fruit Growers 0 2831 Establishment of the Master Gardeners program Carol Graham elaborates on her work with the Master Gardeners program. She explains that the program is a branch of the University of California Cooperative Extension. Their branch is operated through the County Operations Center in Kearny Mesa, CA. She explains the method and funding behind their research in the program. Graham also explains the origins of the establishment of the program in Washington state by an extension agent who decided to train volunteers gardeners to assist home gardeners with their gardening questions. The program now exists in all fifty states in the U.S. County Operations Center ; Gardening ; Kearny Mesa (Calif.) ; Master Gardeners ; University of California Cooperative Extension ; Volunteer ; Washington 0 2965 Composting Carol Graham discusses composting. She provides recommendations for food items to not include in a compost pile which could create odor or attract animals into one’s garden. She also discusses vermicompost, which is a form of composting that relies on earthworms, and explains how to create a successful vermicompost. Graham also dispels common misconceptions about earthworms. Finally, she discusses local companies and organizations that aid the community in environmental matters, such as Miramar and Carlsbad’s desalinization plants, and the Solana Center for Environmental Innovation, which provides started compost kits to the community. Carlsbad (Calif.) ; Compost kits ; Composting ; Desalinization plants ; Earthworms ; Encinitas (Calif.) ; Environmentalism ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; San Diego (Calif.) ; The Carlsbad Desalinization Plant ; The Solana Center for Environmental Innovation ; Vermicompost 0 Oral history Carol Graham is a Master Garderner. She has a Bachelor's degree in Zoology and began her career working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One. After its closure, she enrolled to become a Master Gardner volunteer that was sponsered through the University of California Cooperative Extension program. The Master Gardner program is dedicated to distributing information for an environmentally-responsible home and garden. She has been a Master Gardner since 1983 and participates in various events such as EcoFest. She is very passionate about the study of insects, pest management, composting, and protecting the environment from pesticides. April 26, 2023 Transcript Suzy Karasik: Good morning. My name is Suzy Karasik. Today is November 4th and I am interviewing Carol Graham, Master Gardener, native Californian, and so much that we will learn here in part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Carol, thank you for joining me today. (coughs) Carol Graham: (nods) My pleasure. Karasik: And, um, I wanted to just say briefly how I met Carol. I’m part of the EcoFest that we had here in Encinitas a couple of weeks ago. It’s an annual event that we do to educate people to everything involved with the ecology and the environment here in the county. And Carol had an incredible display (Carol gestures with her arms to display the posterboards on a table behind her) with the Master Gardeners, which we’ve been able to set up here and hopefully make it a little bit more readable. (Carol holds up a model of a fly, with a paper flyer attached and hanging below it) And Carol, let’s just start here. As we had discussed, let’s talk a little bit about where you born and your childhood and if any of that happened to prepare you for what was to come in your most interesting life and, um, how you’ve identified yourself over the years and your relationship with the county. So, you can start there. Graham: Well, I was born in North Claremont, the city of San Diego. And my mother was a very avid fruit tree gardener. And I really benefited because when my husband and I moved up here to Encinitas over forty years ago, it’s a similar microclimate to the one I grew up in, which means the fruit trees that I enjoyed--gardening at my mother’s knees, and fell in love with certain varieties of nectarines and other delicious fruits, loquats--I could grow those same varieties here which was nice. Karasik: Yes. Graham: And it was a very pleasant community to grow up in. Karasik: If I may ask, if you don’t mind, what year were you born, or-- Graham: Oh. (chuckles) 1952. Karasik: Okay. Graham: Yes. So, I just recently celebrated--not that many months ago--my 70th birthday. Karasik: Yes! So, tell us a little bit about your school and what it was like here in the North County--well, you were actually down in San Diego-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --as you were growing up. Graham: I went to elementary school and junior high in the city of San Diego. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, my father was a career Marine. So, we had three years in Virginia, and I graduated from high school in Virginia. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And then we came back to San Diego because the house had been rented--not sold. So, we were able to come back to the same garden, the same microclimate, which was great for the garden-- Karasik: Yes. Graham: --the same fruit trees waiting for us-- Karasik: Yes. Graham: --the ones that we had planted earlier. So, it was a very pleasant experience, very supportive of the interests that I continue to enjoy today. Karasik: So–so you graduated from high school in–in–out east, and-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --then you came back out here. What were your–What was your initial work, and-- Graham: Well, I went to S.D.S.U. and earned a bachelor’s degree in Zoology-- Karasik: Mmm. Graham: --because animals have always fascinated me, and that’s not just the animals many people first think of are the gigantic giraffe and interesting hippopotamus, and rhinoceros. But I’m also fascinated by what some people will refer to as the–the bugs (holds up a stuffed toy puppet ladybug, and chuckles). So, um-- Karasik: Let’s talk about the bugs a little bit. Graham: Yeah. Well, I am very pleased to educate people on--well, most people recognize this as one of their favorite bugs in the whole garden, the lady beetle. (has now put on the puppet on her right hand and is holding it up in front of her) People call it the ladybug, but it’s more scientific to call it the lady beetle. Because actually the word “bug” has a derogatory reference. It comes from old English, meaning something unpleasant (makes a face, and gestures with her left hand to indicate something scattering away). So, lady beetle is the more appropriate, better name. And it’s interesting in that its larval stage looks creepy! (holds up another stuffed animal, which appears to be a larval stage representation of the lady beetle). So-- Karasik: I did not know that! Graham: --the larval stage, as I tell people, “Yes, it looks like a creepy, six-legged, micro alligator.” So, it’s very important that we reach out to the public, as Master Gardeners, and inform people “when you see this in the garden, don’t assume it’s something bad.” (she shakes the larval-stage, stuffed animal) For instance, (turns to her right and looks at the posterboard behind her, first to one with the header “IPM” then points to the board with the header “Identify”) one of the first steps of Integrated Pest Manager—which is what I.P.M. stands for—is identify friend or foe. Because if you assume this is bad (holds up the larval stage stuffed toy) and as many people have told me as they come by our Master Gardener exhibit, they had no idea it was a lady beetle larva. They thought it was something bad ‘cuz it looks creepy! You know what they had told me they had done? They sprayed it with pesticide, or they squished it, or they taught their kids to be afraid of it, which was so sad. Especially since this (shakes the larval stage toy) can not do any good if you squish it! (laughs) Um, but I admit, yes, it looks creepy. And we also educate people that not all lady beetles look like this. (Shakes her right hand which has the mature lady beetle puppet on it) Not all of them are red. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: So, we have an assortment of photos that show different colors for the different species ‘cuz it–it’s great to benefit not from just one species of lady beetle (again shakes her puppeted right hand) but several. (Turns to put both of those stuffed toys down on the bench next to her, then holds up a stuffed toy that looks like a mosquito, which has a paper flyer hanging off of it.). And on the dark side, we also need to educate people about this character. Karasik: Ugh. Graham: Now, a Master Gardener friend of mine made both this educational model (again holds up the larval stage toy) and this (holds up mosquito toy). And she made them too pretty, in a way, because this looks, actually, quite attractive. And it is the creepy mosquito! And I think we’ve all been bitten by mosquitoes. And some people don’t realize but the mosquito actually has been given the horrific title of the most deadly animal we share the planet with, because the part it plays vectoring malaria, dengue, yellow fever. Even West Nile virus killed some of our residents here in San Diego County. It was about fifteen, seventeen years ago. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, it’s true that apparently everyone who died of West Nile virus in our county had pre-existing medical conditions or they would have survived. But it’s also true some of those people could be alive today if they hadn’t been bitten by infected mosquitoes. But unfortunately, 3the mosquito larvae are not easily identifiable for people who haven’t been introduced to them. And many of our neighbors are growing mosquito larvae in their bird baths and other water-containing items, children’s toys, and buckets in the garden. Stagnant water is where the mother mosquito likes to lay her eggs. In a few days, those eggs hatch out to larvae. And when I have displayed larvae—‘cuz sometimes I’ll deliberately grow them to have them on exhibit, and I take the lid off the jar only after I make sure they’re just in the larval stage. No adults to fly out and bite people. And I will ask people as they come to the exhibit, “Do you know what this is?” and over half the adults have no idea it’s mosquito larvae, which is very disturbing, because they’re growing them possibly in their gardens. And when they see them, they’re not motivated to dump it out, ‘cuz they don’t know what it is. Karasik: This is so important, and so, uh, (Graham puts down the mosquito toy) so–so much of it is actually unknown to the public. I’m curious, if you wanted to just kind of go through these four stages, if you will. (Carol stands up and turns toward posterboards) And then we’ll talk more about how you even became to be a Master Gardener. But I don’t want to— Graham: Okay. Karasik: --uh, (Carol sits back down again) forget to look at a little bit more of your early days-- Granham: Okay. Karasik: --so we’ll come back. Graham: (she turns toward the board that reads “IPM.”) Well, the first stage in Integrated Pest Management, as I said, is Identify--(points to the posterboard reading “Identify”) friends, and admittedly some of these friends do look creepy--(points to photographs under the subheading “Friends” on that posterboard) Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --and foes. (points to, and circles with her right-hand finger, various photographs under the subheading “Foes”). And here, kind of the star of the show, (circles the middle of the board, which has a collage of photos) indeed, we recognize the adult lady beetle (points to the photo of the lady beetle). I hardly ever see the eggs (points to a photo of lady beetle eggs) and I have my head in the garden a lot, so I’m surprised I don’t see them more often. But, at certain times of the year, I’ll see the larval stage, (points to a photo of a larval lady beetle) and as I said, I’ll admit it looks creepy like a six-legged micro alligator. And the pupal stage (points to a photo of a pupa of a lady beetle). And if, ideally, people would get this in high school or junior high school biology, it would be so helpful for the public health of our communities. And then of course you move on (stands up and points to the posterboard with the subheading “Understand”) to understand relationships, like the sooty mold, which is this black powdery (points to a photo of leaves with black mold on it) material you frequently find on some infected leaves (reads the text above the photos, indicating it with her left hand)—“grows on the honeydew, produced by sucking insects.” So, unfortunately, it’s not uncommon to have aphids or mealybugs or whiteflies or scale. And what goes in one end to their body as food—‘cuz they puncture the tender leaves and they’re sucking the sap—comes out the other end of their body, and instead of calling it like “aphid poop” it's called “honeydew.” Karasik: (chuckles) Graham: And this honeydew is a rich source of food for the growth, unfortunately, of ants which will protect these bad guys and sooty mold to grow. And here (points to a photo of ants) we see the ants will actually chase away the good guys who would eat some of these bad guys. But the ants are kind of protecting the bad guys because they’re eating-- Karasik: That’s their sustenance. Graham: --the honeydew. Yeah. It’s kind of like we-- Karasik: Yeah. Graham: --protect our dairy cattle from predators who might eat them, because we want to milk them and benefit from them. Karasik: Right, right. Graham: (then points to the text toward the bottom with her left hand) And understanding leads to multiple control approaches--biological, cultural, chemical, physical. There’s quite a diversity there. (She then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Assess,” points to the text with her left hand, and reads) And assess. Butterflies and moths are pollinators. Butterfly and moth larvae are consumers. Well, some bugs, I say they’re like children. They don’t always behave. They do some good and some bad (chuckles). And you have to kind of evaluate how it interacts in your garden. (points directly to the camera and whispers “The screen went dark. Is that a problem? Appears to wait for answer, and then says “okay,” and continues) You have to assess how they interact (using her left hand, she circles above a diagram showing the cycle of interaction of insects) in your garden, whether the bit of bad they do is less than the good they do. So, you can label them a good or a bad. Um, and of course, the green fruit beetle (points to the bottom of the board, to a photo of a beetle). Well, some people label it a pest, because it will attack, damage overripe soft fruits--peach, nectarines, plums, apricot--'cuz it’s drawn to the fragrance. But, the grub, which admittedly looks creepy, is a fantastic decomposer. And it’s in all our compost piles, helping break things down. And it has a strict diet of eating rotting organic matter only. Although, it does look similar to the June Beetle grubs which eat live plant roots and tubers and corms. So, I try and teach people how to tell the difference-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: (then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Control” and points to a pyramid illustration) --and then the control aspects, from cultural which is considered benign approach ; mechanical and physical--I mean, just physically pulling (with her left hand, mimics pulling off the insects from the photos on the “Assess” posterboard) the snails off your plants ; biological--reloos–reducing–releasing--excuse me--lady beetles, or recognizing the lady beetle larvae that you do have so you don’t accidentally spray it with pesticide ; to chemical (points to the top of the pyramid on “Control” posterboard). And all these different approaches are out there (waves her left hand above the pyramid) and they should be assessed and see how they fit into your garden. So, I think that (waves her left hand in front of all four posterboards, indicating totality) kind of reviews them all. Karasik: Pretty much covers that. Before we go back to your childhood, I’m going to pause here just for a minute (Graham sits back down and nods) Karasik: Okay, Carol. I think probably one of the most important aspects of this beautiful background that you chose to bring is the chemical aspect of the pest management. (Carol points to the pyramid on the “Control” posterboard) So, let’s talk a little bit about that and the toxicity because I’m thinking that our descendants that may be watching this oral history in the years to come will know a whole lot–a lot more about what would have been a more wise pest management than we do now. Graham: (again pointing at the posterboard) Well, the chemical aspect is considered the most toxic, and we want you to try the cultural, physical, and biological approaches first. And under the chemical (reads the text on the posterboard, which I’ve designated in quotations) “Use only in combination with the other controls.” It’s not like you have to use only these or only the chemical. You can use them together. And hopefully you won’t even have to go to the chemicals. Hopefully, you can control it by the other approaches. “Use a pest–pest specific non-broad-spectrum pesticide.” In other words, if you do feel you have to use a chemical pesticide, don’t spray the whole garden, and make sure that before you buy any pesticide you carefully read the container and that it mentions the specific pest you’re trying to address, ‘cuz there are pesticides out there that would be totally wasted if you bought this pesticide and it didn’t apply to this pest that you were trying to control. Karasik: Right. Graham: And yet you introduce something toxic into the environment unnecessarily--very undesirable, of course. “Select the least toxic pesticide to reduce potential risks. Always read and follow directions on the pesticide label. It’s the law.” And as I tell people, well, the first thing you read before you buy any pesticide is will it address your target, you also want to make sure is it okay to put on the plant you want to put it on, ‘cuz many of us are growing edibles, and some of the pesticides like insecticidal soap are okay to put on edibles--fruits and vegetables--and will mention that on the paper. Whereas there are other pesticides that you definitely wouldn’t want to put on your edibles, ‘cuz they can get soaked into the plant, and you wouldn’t want to be eating them when you’re eating the produce from that plant. Karasik: Right. I–I was curious if you feel that very many people are actually aware, for example, of the dangers of glyphosate and how that has pretty much penetrated the entire planet. And I’m wondering in the future, um, you know, what will–what will become of that. Do you try to educate specifically on that or does that bother you that it’s still sold and advertised and is just so deadly? Graham: Well, mostly, we’re not targeting any one pesticide. We want people to open their minds to p–basically trying chemical, physical, and biological approaches before they’d even consider the pesticide. So, we spend most of our time--if we can teach them about biological control, physical control, or cultural control, hopefully they’ll never even have to get to the point where they’re considering a chemical pesticide. Karasik: Right. Right. And when you–you go into schools and tell me a little bit about who–who all is your audience. Obviously, festivals like we had-- Graham: Oh, the Encinitas EcoFest was very nice-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --attended. And, of course, we do have many Master Gardeners helping in school gardens. And of course, when you’re talking to the students and their supervisors--the teachers, the staff, chaperones, and parents--about how to properly grow this product that they’re going to pick from the garden and eat, you definitely want to mention that “okay, we’re not going to put this pesticide on here because we don’t have any pests on this. Isn’t it great?” That kind of thing. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Or “oh, we do have pests. We have snails, sliming up the trunk of our citrus tree.” But instead of using a pesticide, we can teach them, of course, much simpler approach, just pick it off. Karasik: How–huh–who knew! Graham: Or we can use a copper band, because snails don’t actually like to slime over copper. It tastes bad for them. So, if we teach them that, we are hopefully enlightening them so when they actually grow to adulthood and have their own yards and their own gardens, they will not first grab the chemical control approach. Karasik: Oh, uh, that’s really great. Well, let’s talk a little bit about, I think maybe, how your life tha–developed, how you met your husband. Graham: Okay. Karasik: And, um, let’s–let’s hear about that. Graham: Well, I was attending San Diego State University, working on my Bachelor of Science in Zoology degree, and my husband, actually, had graduated from there and he was the teaching aide for the lab class in one of the biology classes. So, that’s how I met him, which is interesting. He was in marine biology which was kind of far away from my backyard biology, but still a biologist. And within a year of completing my degree, we were both working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One, in that the Nuclear Generating Station would shut down, I believe it was like every eight weeks, and they would heat-treat and chemical-treat the water intake system, because they had a large pipe--I think it was, like, twelve-foot diameter or something--and it was sucking in ocean water which was cooling some of the rest of the system at the nuclear power plant. But you’re sucking in water from the ocean, so you’re sucking in barnacles and polychaetas and other biophaline. They settle on the pipe and they grow. And this of course not only reduces the diameter of the water intake flow, but also when you’re treating, you might end up with some of these clogs of biophaline getting sucked in and causing problems. So, every, I think it was eight weeks, but don’t quote me on that, I think they were shutting the plant down to chemically treat and heat treat to kill the biophaline so it didn’t keep growing. Unfortunately, every time they shut the plant down, I believe I was told it was $10,000 more an hour for the energy company to buy energy to supply us than it was making the energy at San Onofre. And people really didn’t relate to this because they’d flip the lights on and the switch would come on because the power company was being responsible and making sure the power was there, even though it was costing more. But people were, of course, ending up having to pay a bit more, because it was more expensive when it was shut down. Now, as a biologist, it seemed pretty obvious that in the cold of the winter, the biophaline wasn’t growing as fast. And why were we shutting down the power plant every eight weeks, year-round, regardless of the time of the year. So, on site, I like to joke, I was basically locked into this research trailer, and I was measuring the biophaline on these research plates, so identifying which quadrat on which plate, and what was the diameter of that barnacle, and this polychaete, and that barnacle. And we measured them, for a year, and we were able to show people the hard scientific evidence that things were growing slower in the cold winter waters. And they didn’t have to shut the plant down as often. So, in the end, after we generated–processed all the data, etc., indeed they considered this quite a successful study. So, they weren’t shutting the plant down every week–eight weeks in the winter, because they realized things weren’t growing as fast, as far as the biophaline. So, everybody in the long run saved money, even the cost of the research, which seemed quite expensive at the time although now that the quanti–the money for that research project doesn’t seem quite as expensive as it was decades ago. But they more than saved, because of the change they could do in running the plant. Karasik: I’m curious, too, because you didn’t have computers back then. Or did you have s-- Graham: It was much slower. Karasik: Yeah. You did have some large, like, big equipment that did do some processing. Graham: I’ve talked about after the year of being locked into the research trailer on site of San Onofre, I was locked for a year (chuckles) into the office to transfer the data. Whereas, if we’d had more sophisticated computers back then, it would have been much faster. Karasik: Right. Now, where was your husband working at the–at San Onofre. Graham: Well, he was the lead investigator, so we were locked into the same trailer. Karasik: Oh, that was nice! (chuckles) Graham: Yes. Karasik: I’m curi-- Graham: There were three of us in the trailer. Karasik: Right. I’m curious, too, because I think it’s important from a–a women’s perspective. Did you feel any sense of a gender discrimination, or were women respected? Graham: No. I was given full respect. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, because it didn’t matter what my gender was. I was still going to be locked into that research trailer. ‘Cuz it’s–it was San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station. So, basically, you went to the main entrance. You were evaluated, basically. They also threw the dice and every three or four or six people would be body-searched, (chuckles) physically patted down-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --going in. And this was before we really thought of terrorist activities much. And then we had to walk directly to the research trailer. And even at lunch we didn’t leave the research trailer. We would bring our lunches in and stay in that trailer until the end of the day, research day. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And we walked right out. But I never felt-- Karasik: And was your pay equal? Graham: Yes. Mm-hmm. Karasik: Oh, that’s--I’m really happy to hear that. Graham: I mean, not necessarily equal to my husband, because he was the lead investigator. Karasik: Correct. Graham: But equal to the other party, who happened to be a guy, in the research trailer doing the same work I was doing. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Well, I’m glad to hear that. And it must have also really been nice to work with your husband and be able to share your knowledge and excitement about the job. That must have been–been really great. Graham: Well, he was a marine biologist, so he was quite into it. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, I wasn’t as into the organisms, because I was more terrestrial biologist, of course. Karasik: Right. Graham: Backyard gardening, etc. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: But I did appreciate the fact that this was a–basically a clean form of energy, compared to burning coal. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And, um-- Karasik: And how do you feel about that now? Not that we have to go into a huge nuclear discussion. Graham: Well, now it’s shut down. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And of course, the–the complication is dealing with the remnants, the radioactive remnants. Karasik: Yes. Graham: And I’d like to see the country go more and more into clean energy--but nuclear was considered clean-- Karasik: Right. Graham: --and weed ourself away from the energy sources that are not considered good for the environment. Karasik: You know, that reminds me. At the EcoFest, there was another booth that passed out quite a bit of information about the San Onofre situation and what we need to know as far as how close some of those storage tanks are to water sources and other things like that. Do you--is that a concern for you at all? Or do you think the public is aware of that? Graham: I think they’re doing a good job dealing with that. I would eventually like to see that material moved. For decades now, they’ve talked about moving it to a--I’ve forgotten the exact location. Karasik: There’s a place in Nevada, I know. Graham: Yeah. I don’t know exactly where in Nevada, but-- Karasik: And then, of course, there’s the NIMBY--Not In My Backyard. Graham: Yes. Karasik: And then the people in Nevada were like “Well, you know, we don’t want it here.” So, I think this is an interesting discussion that in decades to come when people come back and look at this and will see what–what’s been done that’s much more safe, and–and won’t that–won’t that be great, hopefully. Graham: But, I’m sure glad we weren’t burning more-- Karasik: Yes. Graham: --coal at the time to generate that energy-- Karasik: Exactly. Graham: --when we were using. Karasik: And that–and that’s still an issue. So, then, tell me a little bit about either how San Onofre ended. You had a–a–I know you have one son that you had mentioned to me. So, tell me a little bit about your family and tell me about your–your parents and your husband’s parents, and where they came from and, you know, how your lives developed here in North County. Graham: Oh. Well, my husband and I moved to Encinitas over forty years ago. And, because it was relatively close to where the Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility was, where I was staying in the office for a year and processing the data from San Onofre. And my parents still lived in San Diego and my in-laws also lived in San Diego. So, it was smart to live on the Encinitas, south of where we went to work, because that was closer to go and visit them, which we frequently did. And my son—the family joke is “What does the only child of two biologists go into study-wise and stay in science, but get as far away philosophically and geographically from any of the biological studies as possible?” Astrophysics! (chuckles) So he got his–actually, his PhD finally. He started with his bachelor’s at Berkeley, and then wan–went to on get his Ph.D. at a–a--what is that, in Maryland, the institution-- Karasik: In Annapolis, or?-- Graham: People think first of the medical aspect. Karasik: Right. Mm, we’ll come back to that. Graham: He’s going to criticize me for not remembering where he got his PhD. Karasik: Mmm. Graham: Anyway. And he had some research in astrophysics. Karasik: Not John Hopkins? [sic] Graham: John Hopkins, [sic] yes. I’m sorry. Karasik: Johns Hopkins. Okay, great. Graham: I’m going to have to apologize for a minute, not remembering, John Hopkins. [sic] Karasik: That’s alright. Yeah. Graham: He got his PhD at John Hopkins. [sic] Yes. Karasik: Yes. Prestigious. Yes. Graham: Yes. Karasik: So, you had just the one son? Graham: Just the one son. Karasik: Okay. So, tell me a little bit about where your parents came from, um, you know, what generation you are. Did they come directly to California? Do you know? ‘Cuz a lot of us don’t really know where our ancestors came from, other than immediate. How much do you know about both yours and your husband’s? Graham: Okay, my mother was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota. My father was born in Ohio. Now, I believe, possibly, the previous generation had come from Ireland and England and Germany. My in-laws, my mother-in-law was born in, I think, Kansas City, Missouri, which is, you know, Kansas City but it’s in Missouri, but I guess it’s a city that’s-- Karasik: They’re sister cities on the border. Graham: Yes. Right across the river from each other. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And my father-in-law was born in Kirkcaldy, Scotland. Karasik: Mmm! So he immigrated here and-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --with his wife? Do you know? Graham: No. Karasik: Or did he meet her here? Graham: He married her here. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Yes. Karasik: And then I guess they all decided to come out to California? Do you know anything about that journey? Graham: Um, my father-in-law was working, I believe, in the aircraft industry, which was quite active at one time in San Diego. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Manufacturing. And my father was a career Marine, and was stationed out here at Camp Pendleton and-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --some other facilities in southern California. Karasik: There’s a lot of history from Camp Pendleton that will be in our Oral History. Graham: Oh! Good. Karasik: Yeah. So, I guess probably, let’s switch then a little bit. When we look at your life’s work, uh, did–did you want to say more about after you didn’t work for San Onofre anymore, did you get more involved tha--How did you get involved with the Master Gardeners? Let’s go there. Graham: Oh, well, um, we had my son. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And my neighbors warned me that, “If you’re looking for infant childcare, you can’t depend on the local teenagers, if you want to do a routine.” And I wanted to apply to Master Gardeners, which was going to be, I think, seventeen consecutive Tuesdays, and you were expected to attend every one, ideally. And I was wondering, “Okay.” So I asked my mother, “I would like to go through this Master Gardener program which is put on through the University of California Cooperative Extension and become a Master Gardener volunteer, which is dedicated to disseminating information for a successful and environmentally responsible home gardening. But your infant grandson would need care every Tuesday for like seventeen consecutive Tuesdays.” And she said yes. So, I’m very beholden to my mother because-- Karasik: Thank you, mother! Graham: Yes. Karasik: Yes. Graham: Because otherwise I’m not sure where I could have dropped him off for just-- Karasik: Right. And what year would that have been? Graham: He was born in 1982. Karasik: Mmm, so you had-- Graham: Then it was in 1983 that I started the Master Gardener program. Karasik: Oh. Wonderful. Graham: He was just a year old. Karasik: Okay. So, how would you say that work has changed over the years for you, and just tell me more about--I–I–I think, in these interviews we want genera–future generations that come back and watch this and want to learn about the community and how the peoples lives were affected (Carol points to something off camera), what you’d--(Carol looks again off camera and starts to chuckle) what you would want them to know. Graham: Well, Encinitas is a great community to live in. The microclimate is fantastic for people who like to grow a diversity of fruit. Although before you grow any fruit trees, no matter where you’re living, always check that the microclimate is adapted. I frequently, at the Master Gardener exhibit, drag out the Sunset Western Garden book and ask people, “Do you have this?” And if you don’t, you can check it out at any good library and tell them that this book divides the western portion of the United States into twenty-four different micro zones. And I open the map and we can usually identify where they’re living, and at least before they go away, I can tell them, “Oh, you open up Sunset Garden book, and you want to look at what apple varieties grow in your microclimate, look for this number on the microclimate.” Because, unfortunately, as a Master Gardener I’ve had people tell me they have purchased certain fruit trees, certain varieties, and I ask, “Oh, where are you gardening?” And I have to tell them, “That variety is not adapted to your microclimate. It’s not going to thrive.” And I even had a personal situation. Years ago, there was a new variety of--I’ve forgotten whether it was, um, a peach or a nectarine--and it came out--it was supposed to be okay for zone 24, close to the coast in southern California. And the next year, after I’d bought it that year, the next year they said “Sorry. We made a mistake. It’s further inland that it’s adapted to.” So, I dug up the tree, had a fellow Master Gardener who lived further inland and said “Would you like this tree? Because I bought this under the belief that it was going to thrive, and now they’ve changed what they’ve recommended.” Karasik: Right. Graham: So, it is critical to do your research first to be successful in gardening. And we don’t want you wasting water, putting water on varieties of plants that are not adapted to your microclimate, whether it’s fruit trees or just ornamentals. Karasik: That is so important. So-- Graham: Especially with water being super critical now. Karasik: Absolutely, which will be another interesting aspect to look at when future generations, uh—what that’s going to be like. Do you--So, was your husband involved in the Master Gardeners too? Or then did you--you didn’t work, uh, when you had your son. Graham: Right. Karasik: And then what–what did he do? (Carol looks puzzled at the question) What was his work? Did he st-- Graham: My–my husband’s work? Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Well, he continued to work for the Lockheed Marine Biological Research. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, now he wasn’t involved directly in Master Gardeners, but I must say that, uh, there were frequently times when I would have a long day at a Master Gardener exhibit, um, like you experienced at the Encinitas EcoFest recently, and I’d be driving home and very often he had the garage door open for me, ‘cuz I had told him when I went off, I hoped to be back in this time period, and the garage door was opened. I could drive right in. And he was a great cook, so it was wonderful because there was dinner waiting for me all ready and he really spoiled me. (chuckles) So-- Karasik: That’s so wonderful. Graham: --not directly in Master Gardeners but he did support me to a high degree in Master Gardener. Karasik: Yeah. Behind ever--huh--there’s a saying: “Behind every great man is an exhausted woman.” (both she and Carol chuckle) Graham: Right. Karasik: And so I think we could probably-- Graham: (nodding her head) Yes. Karasik: --turn that around. Um, what would you say some–are some of your greatest accompish–accomplishments in your life? Graham: Well, reaching out to so many people at Master Gardeners has made me really feel good in that, as I say, I want people, ideally, to have at least a little bit of a–an edible garden. So when their kids come around and the kids have the opportunity as young gardeners to pick that lovely tomato or bell pepper (gestures as if picking something with her right hand) or maybe it’s a fruit--a peach or nectarine--and eat it and say, “Mmm, really good,” that they directly understand where their food comes from. Karasik: (whispers) Yes. Graham: Because, while some of our food comes from the ocean and the rivers and the lakes, so much of it comes from the good earth. And children who grow up picking the stuff from their garden, I think, are going to realize that and makes a connection and be far less apt to pollute or litter. ‘Cuz they understand why would you want to put pollution or litter on the ground. That’s where your food comes from! Karasik: Exactly. Do you feel like you’ve been successful in educating hopefully thousands of people, because there is a lot of concern now about our food sources? And I myself just recently got a tower garden because I want to be able to grow my own food and it seems like we might be moving more to that. Um, you know, I don’t know if we want to get into it, but we may just want to mention because of the--being a–a–an oral history, you know, monocropping and how all the large corporations have taken over the farming. And so is this--Do you feel like you’ve had a little place in there where you’ve been able to-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --educate. Graham: And also sharing with people the experience. Well, there are some peaches and nectarines I’ve enjoyed purchasing in the market, but none of them have the fantastic flavor that my mother and I used to grow and the Panamint nectarine--that’s the one we really adore. And some people love the Babcock peach, but that’s sweet-on-sweet. And my personal taste buds like the sweet with tang, which the Panamint lives up to. So, you can customize better your favorites by growing them. And of course, the macadamia! Well, the macadamia nut--what is that—$12.99 to $19.99 a pound for the nuts in the market when you buy them. Well, you can grow them yourself. They’re easy to grow, although heads up! (points her left pointer finger into the air). I want to alert everybody. They are really a lot of work to crack, even if you buy the specific macadamia cracker which I bought. But so I try to educate people as to this and-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: ‘Cuz the macadamia tree was my husband’s, um--I don’t know if it was his birthday, or his Christmas present the first year after we moved in. He wanted a macadamia. Karasik: Nice. Well, I’m definitely going to be coming to you, because even me being over in the far east side of North County, that is going to be different. And I’m very excited to learn more about what you think would be best for me to plant, primarily just for me to consume. Graham: Mm-hmm. Good. Karasik: That’s my--And also, did you want to talk a little bit about all the different flowers that are edibles that people don’t know about, different fl–like nasturtians [sic], for example. Graham: I’m really not educated on that aspect. My mother wasn’t into edible flowers, and I haven’t gone into it because I’ve been so enamored of the–the fruits, mais–mostly tree fruits. Karasik: Sure, yeah. Pe-- Graham: And–and thornless blackberries! Karasik: Oh! Graham: Yes, ‘cuz I grew up with the Olallie blackberry which mother had which was delicious but boy does that have thorns! (holds up both her hands, fingers spread wide to emphasize prickliness of thorns) Karasik: Really! Graham: Decades of research and now we have thornless varieties out there. Karasik: Oh, I didn’t know that! Graham: So, yes. Triple crown. Karasik: It’ll–it’ll be really interesting for botanists, for example, who might be–get to hear these–this interview, in particular, and see how things have changed. I mean, there is certainly the concern that California may become a desert. And we do definitely have water issues right now. Does that, uh, take up some of your time of concern? Graham: It is concerning. However, I tell people, “Well, um, hopefully when we get off this third year of really severe drought here in San Diego County and people actually start to feel they can put plants in the ground again, well, instead of putting ornamentals, why not put some edibles? Wouldn’t that be a better use of the water?” And as I said you can also customize, so you can put your–your edible in the variety that you couldn’t even find in the market. Karasik: Right. Like sunchokes, Jerusalem artichokes. Those are hard to find, and very nutritious-- Graham: Yeah. Karasik: --for example. Well, we could certainly talk about gardening (both Graham and Karasik chuckle). And that’s–and that was a lot of my reason for wanting to interview you, because I think this will be very interesting to, um, our descendants. I guess, uh, if there’s anymore that you’d like to tell about what you–what like what changes you would like to see for future generations, and if you had a chance to talk to some of these future generations, not just around Master Gardening but just about life in general and what you’ve learned over the years, what–what you think is most important that, uh-- Graham: Well, continuing on some of the issues that we mentioned--less lawn, and more drought tolerant or edibles. Um, now there are some people who have a legitimate desire to have a lawn. They have young kids who do want to play on it. But that doesn’t mean they have to have a lawn both front and the back. And, um, after a certain length of time, maybe they want to take the lawn out because their kids are no longer playing on it-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And cracking open the reference books, even good old Sunset Western Garden book. And it has a plant finder section. And one of the things that it addresses there are low water use plants. Karasik: Drought tolerant. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Yes. Graham: As well as delving through the various edibles-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --making sure you select the right variety for your microclimate, so you’re successful and don’t waste water on a variety that was doomed from the start. Karasik: Yeah. Hmm, well, we’ve just covered that so well. I think, more than--it sounds like you’ve had a wonderful life and, of course, everything’s not perfect. There is a question here. What are your regrets? Or what would you do over if you could. Did you want to speak to that by chance? Or-- Graham: Well, I regret my husband passed away. My husband died. Karasik: Yes. If you want to-- Graham: And I didn’t appreciate enough all the great cooking he used to do. Um, so now I’m spending a whole lot more time from going to the grocery store and buying the food and prepping the food and thinking ahead, “Okay, I have this many drumsticks. Am I going to eat chicken this many nights, or am I going to eat some of this, and what’s in the freezer, and how much time it takes.” ‘Cuz I’ve a terribly neglected yard. But I am enjoying the social aspect of going out for Master Gardener exhibits. Karasik: Yes. Graham: Especially since my husband is gone now. Karasik: Right. Graham: So-- Karasik: And it hasn’t been that long, so--I know that, um, my condolences and I know how that is. We–we all have to accept that part of life. And-- Graham: Mm-hmm. I’m grateful that he did have a good quality of life up until the very end. Karasik: Yes. And I think, too, that again that’s a lot why this oral history project is so important. Because we don’t realize what interesting lives people have had. And it doesn’t get documented. So, we certainly have more time. Um, here’s a couple of questions here around community that might–might be interesting. It says “In what w–ways is your neighborhood special or has it been unique or what are some of the favorite places in your community, and how has–how has this area changed since you moved here? And that’s-- Graham: Yeah. Karasik: --a big one. Graham: When my husband and I first moved here, we didn’t even buy groceries in Encinitas because there were very few grocery stores, you know. This was over forty-five years ago. And there was a grocery store we’d go right past when we were leaving that place of work. So, it made more sense to stop there, but it wasn’t in Encinitas. And of course, I like to spend my consumer dollars in my own community. And now we have over ten grocery stores!! I mean, in an hour--excuse me, in a mile and a half, I can walk to four different grocery stores in my community. And frequently I am walking because it’s checking off my exercise for the day and checking off my eco-point for the day, ‘cuz I’m not driving my vehicle, um, and I enjoy it! And Encinitas allows me to do this because of all the grocery stores they have, which forty-five years ago-- Karasik: And they’re some of the finest–some of the finest grocery stores. Graham: Nice diversity. Karasik: Not the least expensive, by any means, but definitely some of the highest quality and the largest diversity of what is offered. Graham: Yes. And we have farmer’s markets. Karasik: We do. Graham: Two of them in Encinitas. Karasik: Yeah. Let’s talk–let’s talk a little bit about those. Do you get to know any of those farmers? Or-- Graham: I actually--way back when, was it Harry Stone? Don’t quote me--who founded the first farmer’s market in San Diego County up in Vista. He was a member of the California Rare Fruit Growers. And I’ve been an avid member of the California Rare Fruit Growers for decades. And the idea took off and it was great. Karasik: You know, another interview that I did, I learned that the–there is a big difference, obviously, between an egg farm, a truck farm, and a—are you familiar with that? So, the truck farm is the vegetables that you would then truck to the market. And then obviously the egg farm and the chickens, because Cal State San Marcos that was a huge egg farm. And actually, on the way over here you were telling me there was a wonderful nursery here that has now been-- Graham: Sunshine Gardens Nursery is now closed, and it was a very nice nursery for I don’t know how many decades here. Karasik: Mm-hmm. And now it’s–it’s–they’re making room for housing because we need that, and–and I think all the more reason. We have community gardens here. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Did you want to talk a little bit about that? Graham: I think it’s wonderful we have a community garden, quite close to the Heritage Museum here in Encinitas. And there are people who live in condominiums or apartments and they don’t have a yard to put a garden. So, community garden gives them wonderful opportunity. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, now, I do want to encourage people, even if they don’t have a yard, to consider possibly growing—we used to call it pot culture, but now that gives you the wrong impression--container gardening! (laughs) Karasik: Right. Graham: Yes. For instance, you can grow a nice return of blackberries, pick the thornless varieties in a fifteen-gallon pot, fifteen-gallon black plastic pot. Or you can put a more decorative pot if you’d like and make it more decorative, and you can put it on your balcony perhaps on your condominium or apartment. Mind that you give it full sun, etc. But, even without having a yard, there are some edibles you can grow if you research things carefully. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Have you found that people in your neighborhood come to you and ask you for your advice? Or how do you--(both she and Graham chuckle) I think I’m going to be asking you for some advice, for sure. Graham: Well, this was an interesting first four months in the year 2022. I captured six gophers. Now only one of them in my yard. I’m grateful for it was only one in my yard. But the other five were in three different neighbors’ yards. And I was labeled the gopher getter. I’ve captured gophers in other yards previous years too, but this was an especially active first four months of the year, for some reason. Karasik: Do you think—and I might even have heard somewhere--do you think that the drought had a lot to do with that, that they might even be seeking water or food, or are–are they--maybe they’ve increased their offspring. Do we know why? Graham: I don’t think so. I didn’t hear anything connecting those variables. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: It was just a-- Karasik: And then where do you take ‘em? When you catch them. Graham: Well, there are no have-a-heart traps for gophers. You realize this is–(makes a gesture with her right hand of cutting off her head and lets out a scraping sound) these are kill traps. Karasik: Oh. Graham: Because the gopher is not a wanted critter to release in a wild area. No. So, the traps you’d use are kill traps for gophers. Karasik: Hmm. Unfortunate, but necessary. Graham: Mm-hmm. Because remember if you don’t deal with it early, the pest note that University of California Cooperative Extension puts out on gophers, I believe it says, “In irrigated areas, like our gardens, gophers can have up to three litters a year.” And I believe they said the number in the litter can vary from like five to seven. So, that’s a pretty horrific number of offspring they could produce in a year, if you don’t deal with them quickly. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And I think it was this year I was given the gopher getter title, because the one party I trapped a gopher successfully was just put the trap in one day and the next day I had it. And she happened to comment to her neighbor across the street, and he had a gopher, so he contacted me. And there were these three neighbors fairly close to each other on an adjacent street, that-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Graham: And the first four months of the year that--bing–bing–bing. Karasik: Hmm. Um, going back to--you’ve mentioned a couple of times. So it’s U.C. California San Diego, because when I tried to contact you, there is a division there. Do you want to tell us a little bit how that’s set up, ‘cuz I know you’re kind of under their umbrella. And-- Graham: Well, the Master Gardener program is a volunteer branch of the University of California Cooperative Extension. It’s not just one university, ‘cuz sometimes people have thought, “Oh, you’re office is at U.C.S.D.” No, no, it’s actually in the County Operations Center in Corina Mesa. Karasik: Mmm. Graham: And we have information that is generated from all of these universities throughout the state. Now some of it applies directly to where we’re here in the San Diego. Another applies to more northern California areas. But the information clearly tells you that. And of course, our tax money is paying for some of this research, because we have a very productive agricultural economy in California. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And the research is directed toward the agricultural, commercial aspect. But there are spinoff bits of information that are generated that directly help the home gardener as well. So we’re out there. As a matter of fact, if I can bend your ear, the story about the creation of the Master Gardener program was apparently it started in Washington state. And this good-hearted cooperative extension agent was getting a lot of calls, people having questions on their home garden situation. But he was being paid to advise and help out the commercial growers and farmers. And he didn’t want to be rude and not help them, but he had his plate full helping the commercial farmers. So he got the brilliant idea. I’ll train a crew of volunteers and when I get a home garden question I will pass the question on to them. And that’s what I was told started the Master Gardener program. And now I’ve been told that we actually have Master Gardeners in all fifty states. Karasik: Oh, wow, good. Graham: So-- Karasik: Oh, that’s great. Well, um, we’ve certainly had an interesting conversation here and if there’s anything else that you would like to tell. We’re so appreciative of the work that you’ve done and I can see where that’s been a really big part of your life and I’ve–I’m assuming very rewarding-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --and it’s enabled you to make a lot of friends and-- Graham: And I’d like to say also I’m very pleased to volunteer for the Solana Center for Environmental Innovation. Karasik: Oh, that’s such a great place. Graham: Right here in Encinitas. Karasik: Let’s talk about that just for a little bit, because again in the future I think that will be something that will still be here. Graham: Yes, of course. Karasik: And they do so many things there. Let’s talk about that a little bit. Graham: Well, they were at the Encinitas EcoFest, right next to my Master Gardener exhibit. And they teach many aspects and as far as gardening, composting, very important. And instead of having that truck rumble through your neighborhood once a week and pick up the green waste in the bin, if more of us could compost on site, it would help the environment. Also, of course, if you’ve ever gone to the nursery and priced bags of potting soil and compost, it’s not inexpensive if you consider the number of bags you could use as an avid gardener for the year. Karasik: And I don’t know if we always know where all that soil came from. Graham: Well, it is nice to have control of it from your own garden and know what went into it exactly. Karasik: Exactly. Graham: And while it does take a little bit of room and it does take some time, it also is a nice excuse to get out into the fresh air in the garden. Karasik: What do you recommend, because I know a lot of people are afraid to compost because they think it will bring critters? Graham: Oh, okay. When you are putting certain elements in the compost pile that you think might accidentally bring critters like the egg shell, or the citrus peel or the avocado pits or something, it is highly recommended that you bury that in the compost pile with a layer at least four inches maybe even six inches of yard trimmings above it. That will basically absorb any odors and of course it’s not recommended that you put bones in the compost pile, because that would tend to attract critters. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Now, will–will worms come into that? Or is a worm compost kind of a separate approach to composting? Graham: Well there is vermicompost in a worm bin. Karasik: Right. Graham: Worms will come into your compost pile. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And you give them things to eat. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: The fruit waste, like the peels and pits, etc. As well as the decomposing leaves and twigs, etc. Karasik: Leftover food, and lettu—greens, things like that. Graham: Vegetables and fruits leftover. Karasik: Yeah. Yeah. Graham: Not meat. Of course. Karasik: Right, right. Graham: Not meat or bugs. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: And of course, you’ve moistened the environment in the compost pile to help it decompose and they–worms breathe through their skin and they need a moist–yep, they actually need a moist skin to survive. So, they are very happy to find this moist environment which offers them perfect lodging and food buffet, moisture, yes. Karasik: Just for my own curiosity. I’ve always been fascinated by earthworms and the fact that you’ve–that you’ve–they’re w–w–one of the few living beings where you can cut off their head and they’ll grow another one. Is that correct? Graham: No. that’s not-- Karasik: They’ll grow, maybe not their head, but the back end or-- Graham: No. Karasik: That’s not true? Graham: Um, too many people--I mean, depending on the amount you cut off at the tail end, they might survive. Karasik: Not intentionally, obviously. Graham: Yeah. But if you accidentally cut one in two, some people have this misconception that you’ll get two worms. No. It’ll die. Karasik: Aw. I had that misconception. Graham: Yeah. That’s a popular-- Karasik: And they are so critical. Graham: Yes. Karasik: They are so critical. But probably one of the most or when we look at–at soil. Are you familiar with soil regeneration and some of the ways that they’re trying now to--because so much of our soil has been depleted? Do you get involved in that, or are you just-- Graham: Well, with the compost pile, you’re helping replenish. Karasik: mm-hmm. Graham: And when you think about it, okay. The nutrients it takes for let’s say your peach tree to make peaches, it has to make leaves. Well, some of that is from the very leaves that came, matured, off the tree. So, you’re recycling it in the compost pile and putting it back underneath the tree when you’re putting some compost into the soil under your peach tree. Karasik: Right. Wonderful. That’s–that’s a good point as well. Graham: Mm-hmm. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: So you’re just basically recycling the nutrients as opposed to chucking them into the trash and hauling them off to the land fill. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: And not even chucking them into the green bin and having them hauled off. But, at least when it goes to the green facility at Miramar, it gets repurposed. But it’s more. Karasik: Have you ever visited that place? Graham: Oh yes! It was fantastic. This was decades ago. Karasik: That would be a wonderful tour. Graham: There was a field trip--I don’t remember if it was Master Gardeners or the Encin--the Solana Center sponsored the field trip decades ago. It was so much fun! And wow, it was interesting. Karasik: I’d like to do that. I’d also like to visit one of these desalination plants and see how they’re doing that. Graham: Oh, yes. Karasik: Because that seems to be the future. Now, that’s another point. Graham: I was able to take a tour of that too. That was Solana Center that hosted that decades ago. Karasik: Oh, did they? Graham: From up the street at the Carlsbad Desalinization Plant. Karasik: Yes! I might ask them if they know how somebody can do that now. One other thing I wanted to ask about the Solana Center. I had seen something where you can get some buckets and take it home, and so you can kind of get compost from them, or maybe a starter? How does that work? Graham: Um, you pay a fee. I—don’t quote me because I’m not sure exactly how much it is. You get a bucket to take home, and you put your fruit and vegetable waste in it, and also bones and—in other words, if you’re not composting you put these materials in there. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And it has some bokashi in it, which ferments it. Karasik: Is bokashi an organism that breaks it down? Graham: It’s a-- Karasik: What is that? Graham: --it’s more like a chemical-- Karasik: Oh, okay. Graham: --that pickles it. I think it’s what they compare it to. Karasik: Okay. Graham: And you can take that back, and then you can get some finished compost as well. So-- Karasik: Oh, that’s how-- Graham: --but you’ll–you’ll want to call the Solana Center and ask for the details. Karasik: Right. Yes. I’ve been over there and they were very supportive to us-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --for the EcoFest as well. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Well, I just want to thank you for your time. And this has been a really interesting and educational interview. And you have definitely had a wonderful life, and I sense the fact that you will be around for quite a while and helping a whole lot more people. And I’m so happy to know you and really appreciate your time, and what you’re going to offer for future generations. Graham: Well, thanks for this opportunity to reach out to people. Karasik: Oh, absolutely. You’re so welcome. So again we’re--actually, I don’t know if I mentioned this. We’re at the San Dieguito Heritage Museum which is here in Encinitas and I really wish that people could see that, although they’ll have the opportunity to do that, you know, locally. But the history here at this particular museum is incredible, as well. So, would encourage people to come out if they happen to listen to this and we thank them also for the opportunity to use their equipment, and hope that this will be a good video. So, thank you very much. Graham: You’re very welcome. Karasik: And we will finish here. GLOSSARY Babcock peach (pg. 15) Biophaline (pg. 7, 8) California Rare Fruit Growers (pg. 18-19) Carlsbad Desalinization Plant (pg. 24) County Operations Center [Corina Mesa] (pg. 20) EcoFest (pg.1, 6, 10, 14, 21, 25) Glyphosate (pg.6) Heritage Museum (pg. 19) Integrated Pest Management (pg.3, 4) Johns Hopkins University (pg. 11) Kirkcaldy, Scotland (pg. 12) Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility (pg. 10, 14) Master Gardener(s) (pg. 1-4, 6, 12-15, 17, 20-21, 24) Panamint nectarine (pg. 15) Polychaete (pg. 7, 8) San Dieguito Heritage Museum (pg. 25) San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station [Plant One] (pg. 7, 8, 10, 12) Solana Center for Environmental Innovation (pg. 21, 24-25) Stone, Harry (pg. 18) Sunset Western Garden book (pg. 13, 17) Sunshine Gardens Nursery (pg. 19) Truck farm (pg. 19) University of California Cooperative Extension (pg. 12, 20, 21) Vermicompost (pg. 22) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GrahamCarol_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-04_access.xml GrahamCarol_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-04_access.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Graham, Carol. Interview November 4, 2022. Description An account of the resource Carol Graham is a Master Garderner. She has a Bachelor's degree in Zoology and began her career working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One. After its closure, she enrolled to become a Master Gardner volunteer that was sponsered through the University of California Cooperative Extension program. The Master Gardner program is dedicated to distributing information for an environmentally-responsible home and garden. She has been a Master Gardner since 1983 and participates in various events such as EcoFest. She is very passionate about the study of insects, pest management, composting, and protecting the environment from pesticides. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-028 Subject The topic of the resource Crops -- Diseases and pests -- Biological control Gardening -- California -- San Diego County Master gardeners -- California -- San Diego County Organic farming San Diego State University San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station (Calif.) University of California (System). Cooperative Extension Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-04 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Carol Graham Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Suzy Karasik Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Encinitas (Calif.) San Diego North County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Carol Graham Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f49e1fc474b566146db157adf2b4fa32.pdf f3996b4f578fa89be82fa7b47bb89d82 PDF Text Text CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Michael De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I’m a graduate research assistant with Kellogg Library, I'm here today with Chanel Bradley discussing her involvement in the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM (California State University San Marcos), as well as the Black Student Union. So to kick things off, Chanel, I just wanted to ask about your background. I want you to talk about the community that you grew up in and kind of describe what that was like. Chanel Bradley: I grew up in Orange County. I was raised by a single parent, so I moved a lot. And like for example, in high school, I went to two different high schools (laughs). If you don't know about Orange County, it's like predominantly a white county. And we lived in a predominantly white area, so I was normally like one of few that looked like myself. And so I kind of quickly learned what it was like to be, other, and found myself kind of like congregating with other others, (laughs). And that sort of became my community. Typically, I would spend my time with like Latino and like Black students and like even at my church, like, I went to Saddleback until I was about sixteen. I was in the choir, and my grandmother was the choir director. And Saddleback is like a megachurch in Orange County. So she was kind of like a local celebrity (laughs). So like people would know, like, about our family or about her. And so there was a lot of, of colorful acquaintances. But I would say the people that I felt kind of most comfortable with how to share like cultural experience. De Maria: I see. And going forward from there, what led you to attend CSU San Marcos and get involved with the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center)? Bradley: So I was originally gonna go to a school in Florida. And my dad, he didn't want me to leave the state (laughs), so it was more of a forced choice. And so, I applied to other colleges and universities in the state. And I think we ended up picking Cal State (San Marcos) because, of the distance, I think at the time he was living in, Rancho Santa Margarita. And so, it was very easy to kind of like go home on like weekends or something like that. But I actually ended up living in the dorms and so I didn't go home too often, but I started going to the Cross-Cultural Center (laughs), as most college students is motivation is free things (laughs). So the Cross-Cultural Center had free food. And so, my friends and I were always like trying to find the next thing that had free food. So I went to an event, I don't even remember what the event was called. And they had so many like student services, like I could print for free. You know, they had books that I could borrow for classes if I needed to. And, I think for me being multi-ethnic, like I don't really fit into a particular box. And so it was nice to go to a place where like, oh, I can like get like, you know, experiences from all walks of life. So, I think that's kind of what--why I kept coming back. And then I served on the committee. What did I do? (whispers) It's, it's, it's like what, almost 20 years (laughs) ago, so I have to kind of like think about it. But, I remember either like going to the CrossCultural Center director (laughs). I, I was a very adventurous college student, so I got into some trouble. I Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 1 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 ended up (laughs) being convicted of a misdemeanor and my last semester of my freshman year, I couldn't finish my exams because I was waiting for trial. So, I think what had happened was I ended up volunteering so that I could gain work experience after that incident that I had. And so, I believe Sara Sheikh had suggested that I assist her with the Social Justice Summit. And so I created some of the marketing material for it. And then, I believe, maybe a year or so after that, I ended up participating on the committee again. And I believe that same year, might have been the same year or maybe, you know, few years after I applied to be a peer educator for the center. So that was kind of like the beginnings of involvement (laughs) with the Cross-Cultural Center. De Maria: Got it. So, it sounds like the CCC just provided a positive space for you to inhabit and kind of rebuild some elements of your life after that incident. Which I think is super, super cool. Regarding the projects that you worked on, I'd love to hear more about the Social Justice Summit, since you were involved in the very first one (Bradley laughs). So, if you could just take me through your experience with that, and just, you know, what, what it was like, what was discussed, and just giving me an image of what all occurred. Bradley: So, I think I remember what happened. I ended up, attending the first Social Justice Summit, as a participant. And I, (laughs) yeah, that's what happened. I remember. Okay. (laughs) I feel like as I'm talking, I'm remembering the timeline. So (laughs), pardon me if I'm like having to go back into the, the files of my brain. De Maria: No, that's, that's good (both Laugh). Bradley: Yeah, so I, I was a participant. I attended the retreat with my boyfriend at the time. And--I would say I've always been like a fairly consciously aware person like, you know, growing up in a predominantly white area, and like knowing that I was not white, was something that I knew. But I think as you--or at least as I grew up, you kind of learn how to adapt in those environments. And so, things that are probably like triggering or, you know, maybe the, not the most like PC thing to say, I would kind of say to fit in or whatever I was doing at the time. So when I went to the Social Justice Summit, it was really eye-opening ’cause they were talking about, like, individual identity. They were talking about oppression and marginalization, which again, like I knew, but I didn't know that it existed, in like different intersects. And--they also talked about like allyship. So I met a lot of people there that I still talk to today. Yeah, that's, that's how I started. And then I think after that, that's when I was on the committee, the planning committee. And I did the marketing and I pretty much just kept continuing to participate with the Social Justice Summit because it was very impactful for me. I think it helped build my activism, if you will. It Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 2 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 gave me...language to talk about my experiences. It gave me like, curriculum to teach other people about how to start their journey or like continue their journey or, you know, come back from taking a rest (laughs) if you will. It exposed me to like a lot of things that were happening on campus, that were unjust. And I, because I had those experiences I felt empowered enough to not just let them happen, but to like speak about them. I developed like lifelong mentors from that summit. I think, if I'm not mistaken, I probably went to like three or four of them. The first one being a participant and the others I was on the committee. And then the, the last one, I ended up--I was a co-facilitator, so. De Maria: Got it. Very, very cool. And I previously interviewed Sara Sheikh, so she was able to also walk me through, a bit of that experience, but that's awesome hearing your perspective. And then regarding some of the projects that you did for the CCC, you've previously been described by your peers as someone who always got incredible results, but thought outside the box and didn't necessarily play by the rules to achieve those results. So I was just curious in your own words if you had an instance of a project or an objective you achieved where you didn't necessarily play by the rules. Bradley: That's funny. (laughs) I've always been like a really creative person. So--I... I like to see kind of like, what is the baseline? And I'm like, “okay, what, what more can we do from here?” So, we had an event called Cafe La Paz, and it was essentially a way to talk about, different cultural backgrounds and experiences, in an interactive way. And then I believe we served food (laughs). I think all our events we serve food, that's how you get students (laughs), make sure you get a Costco pizza and, and all the desserts and then you will have students. But yeah, so we had to work with, or we were tasked to work with the other centers, so the Women's Center (now Gender Equity Center) and the LGBT Pride Center, LGBTQIA, Pride Center (laughs). And so, I don't remember like the actual identities that we had to talk about, but it was like two or three of them, and we had to find a way to kind of put them together. And, I like to do things where people aren't just like listening to a lecture or watching a movie. I feel like it's, like it works if it's like twenty minutes or something that's short. Like when you get people to move and talk and engage with each other, I feel like that's more impactful to their learning process. So I honestly don't remember the game or what it's called. Oh, yes, I do (laughs). So, it's a game, called mafia and, it basically simulates this like inner and outer group and then, like people who reinforce the system and then, people who are trying to change the system. And so, I found a way to talk about experiences in the community or in classrooms and then incorporate this game that I played with other college students. So, I guess that's a way of being creative and thinking outside the box. I know I definitely broke some rules as far as my attendance goes. (Be)cause my, my, punctuality then was not (laughs) not very good. So I guess that would probably be some ways that I, you know, was a little bit rebellious. But I would say for the most part it was just really my creativity that drove me to, think of things that weren't being done. So like, another example is like when we, I think this might have been--when was this? This might have been like the second or third social justice event that I was on the committee with. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 3 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 And we were like, thinking of names to title it, or what have you. And I'm very simple. Like I don't--I'm not really someone that wants like a word vomit of a title, like make it impactful, how can we say this in the fewest words possible? So I like, took--then they had the RED campaign (division of The ONE Campaign to end extreme poverty and preventable disease by 2030). I don't know if you remember that. De Maria: Um-hm Bradley: It was a RED campaign for Apple or like, for HIV awareness, or something like that. And so in that campaign, they put brackets over the R and the E. So I found a way to like use the word power and then I put brackets around the word, the words W-E So it looks like, like we are the power that we, that we want to, like we have the power, we the people have the power essentially. And so I remember making it, and it was like, the most simple one that I had ever done in all of the designs that I had created. And I believe that same year the registration, like was full by like the end of the day or like the next day. So that was really cool to kind of see how something so simple can intrigue people enough to want to join something that they probably wouldn't normally going to. De Maria: Absolutely. And it's super cool to hear about your art making such a tangible impact as well. Regarding the operation of the CCC again, through my research I've heard several people kind of cite the students as sort of like the lifeblood of the organization. The people who affected change and essentially help those projects get off the ground. So I was just interested in hearing about what your relationships were like with other student staff as well as your superiors? Bradley: So my first two years, ’cause I think I was there for three years, it’s been three years, oh my gosh (laughs). My first couple of years. The person, did he, I think he, I think he was the one that referred for me to apply, or it was Sara (Sheikh). I don't exactly remember. But I have a friend who's like, essentially someone who I've been friends with since then, but his name is Gerardo Cabral or he goes by G now. But G, I met him at that event that I said where I got the free pizza for the first time. I honestly didn't know that it was his event. He tells me later that it was, and I was like, he's like, “Yeah, I remember you coming in.” And (laughs) I don't even remember what I was saying, but I was like, extra, as the word that people would use then. And so when I started working with him, him and I started to develop a closer relationship outside of work. He, I think at the time, like either my car wasn't working or like I had to walk to campus, and I was living off of campus, so he would pick me up like every day. ’cause I was, I wasn't too far from campus, Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 4 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 but it was far enough where, like you didn't want to walk, because as everybody knows, Cal State San Marcos sits on a hill. So (laughs) if you're walking from off campus, and it's already far enough, like you got (to) trek up, a mountainside to get there. And so--and this was before the (University) Student Union, because there were like ways that you can get up without using stairs that I figured out, but the easiest way is to take stairs. But yeah, so became like really close to Gerardo and, I, I, I believe because of like the experience that I had with like the incident that I had my freshman year I really connected with Sara. She like has a very therapeutic presence. And as someone who like experienced trauma young and (laughs) very, very colorful past it was comforting to have a supervisor that didn't really feel like a supervisor. Like she, you know, obviously was my supervisor, but it just felt different. I've never had a supervisor where I connected in that way. So when she left, it, it was a really big hole, like for the whole center because everyone loved her. I mean, they still love her, like I still love her. But like me and G especially were like basically mourning (laughs) her transition. And I think that experience also brought us closer. I was in his wedding, like he's came to all of my graduations, I've gone to his. So we still talk to this day. And my experience with Floyd (Lai, the next director of the Cross-Cultural Center), because I was so connected with Sara, was definitely rocky at first. I was so used to like a certain way, that things were, and then when Floyd came, he didn't necessarily disrupt everything and like change everything. We kind of kept most things, if not all. But I definitely was a little bit taken aback by having to deal with like, a, a power shift, if you will. But Floyd has always been super supportive. And at the time I was also involved in InterVarsity, InterVarsity is a Christian student group on campus. I don't know if they're still there, but I had a mentor there who was telling me, he was like, “You have to be a leader.” Like a 360 leader. Sometimes you have to lead the people that you are, that are supposed to lead you. Not to say that Floyd didn't lead me, it was just like, because he was a new person, he kind of came to me with like, “Okay, what information do you have? What knowledge do you have? Do you have background information about this event or that?” And so I kind of felt like I was in a way his little guide. And so that was new for me. I'd never been in a position where people are looking at me for answers. So I think it helped me develop my leadership skills as a result. And also be able to reconcile relationships too. So, some of the other like staff that I work with, I still touch base with every once in a while, but--like when was it? Was it the 25th anniversary? I don't remember. But there (laughs), there was a, what was it, third year? I don't remember. But I went to an event and I came back to campus after graduating and I ran into Allie Moreno, I think she has a different last name now, but Allie Moreno I also worked with. And she was there at the event, so I got to reconnect with her. Same thing with Diana (Salidvar). Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 5 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 I'm bad with names, so I apologize. Diana, I believe, is her name. I still like connect with her through social media, so I--it's, it's like, a very unique time in your life when you're like, “I'm an adult,” but also like, you're still learning. You're still learning how to be an adult, you're still learning how to function in the world. You have to take care of yourself. Like, I had to, you know, get a job and I couldn't really rely on my parents to help me out of situations (laughs) if you will. So I had to learn how to be resourceful. And I think the Cross-Cultural Center gave me the resources among other, you know services that I used on campus to survive and thrive there. De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. One comment on that, I will second Sara Sheikh's, therapeutic nature (both laugh). She's, she's definitely an incredible person. And, yeah, it definitely sounds like when you were able to kind of inhabit that role as sort of like a guide for the others in the center, it sounds like you kind of reached a point of pride and were able to kind of reflect in your accomplishments and just some of the things that you had done. Which I also think is super cool. Now that I've kind of jogged your memory a little bit from those experiences, I want to know what your favorite memory of the Cross-Cultural Center is. Bradley: (laughs) It's very simple. Like I--the, the one thing that my dad taught me was that you can change an atmosphere just by stepping into the room. And so I would be very big on atmosphere, or ambiance if you will. My friends and I call it am-Beyonce (laughs), like, because Beyonce has that, that energy and aura to her too. And so what I would do when I would be working my shift is I would play music that I enjoyed, and then I would ask students like, “What do you wanna listen to?” So I would kind of like be a DJ, like a little bit (laughs). So I enjoyed just creating a welcoming space for them to come in. And I've had students--and in a way I sort of became like a therapist come to me like stressed out about something and they are looking for advice or guidance, or just like helping individuals who are coming in trying to figure out like, “Oh, what's this place?” (laughs) You know? So I think that was probably my favorite part of working at the Cult--Cross-Cultural Center, was just creating that space for students. De Maria: Very cool. I definitely understand that impact of ambiance, so it's definitely nice that you were able to be a little selfless in a way and kind of provide that, that atmosphere like you mentioned. And shifting gears here, I know that you had a heavy involvement in the Black Student Union on campus as well. You're cited as being an individual who essentially revived that organization or had a very big hand in reviving it from inactivity. So just starting there, I want to know what that timeline looked like and how you got involved in that project as well. Bradley: Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 6 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 So I was in BSU (Black Student Union) my freshman year, and it was pretty active then. We had a good amount of members. They--I would say maybe a majority of them were like upperclassmen. And so, I think I also served on the board my second year and that's when the president Charey or Trey stepped down and then Raja stepped up. He had a lot of great ideas and he is a really good leader. I think it's just really hard when you're--like imagine having to be the next head, like performance after like Patti LaBelle (laughs). You're like “How do I top that (laughs)?” So I think it was some of that that happened with Raja, but he did a really good job at getting a lot of the structural things that organizations need. Like they need bylaws. They need to define their roles. They need recruitment efforts. They need to have like good soil to be able to grow. After Raja graduated, because he was also upper class, I think he ended up graduating before myself, maybe a couple years before me. So a lot of those upperclassmen that made up a lot of the BSU moved on. And so it was just like the underclassmen that kind of had to step up. I think there were like, if I'm not mistaken, a couple of attempts where students tried to revive it and then it just became inactive. I don't know how long the inactive period was, but I think during that time I was doing a lot of on-campus like protests. I was doing a lot of things with the Cross-Cultural Center. I was leading Bible studies. I was, also going to school, working, like I was doing a lot. And I think it was my Women's Studies professor, I think at the end of my like sophomore year and she was like, “What are you gonna do about BSU?” I'm like, “What do you mean (laughs)? Like, it's not my job (laughs).” And I think another Women's Studies professor was like, “You should try to get that organization going again.” And I was like, “Okay” (laughs). I work with a lot of student organizations when I was a peer educator. So I'm like, okay, I see how they do things. I know all the background information. I know who to talk to at, Student Life and Leadership so that I can try to expedite things if I need to. I know where to go with ASI (Associated Student Inc.) like being a student worker really exposes you to a lot of like the administrative side of a university. So I got to be able to experience that. So when I stepped into that role, I already had all those resources. And I knew a lot of students, so they knew who I was. And so when I started, I had enough members to make the organization active, which I believe is three. You need a secretary, a vice (president) and a president. We talked extensively during the summer about like, who's going to take up what role, and what are we gonna do and how are we gonna do things? And kind of, things like that. I originally, I believe was just gonna be a vice president, another student wanted to be president. And I'm like, I have no ties to any role. My only objective is to make this organization active again. And I think it was the week or two before classes started, both of them dropped out. And I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I'll figure this out because I'm resourceful. So, I just started reaching out to every student that I knew. I'm like, you remember when BSU was like, and all this stuff? And just trying to--and even new students, I was like, “You look like a leader!” I was just heavy, heavy with my Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 7 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 recruitment until I finally got two people to be in the role of vice president and treasurer. And then I was able to go to Josh at the time who was like overseeing student organizations. (laughs). I'm like, okay, “I have all the paperwork (laughs), like can we be active now?” And then it was definitely really rocky. It was, it was really rocky, because at the time I was like, I'm just trying to get us back into a place where we have presence on campus cause we're here, like Black students are here, they're just not collectively coming here. And so I also, at the same time, I'm honestly, I don't know how I did all these things, but at the same time (laughs) while I was in, in InterVarsity, they have like a Black student body as well within that, that organization. And so I was working with Black Student Unions at other campuses. I was like, let me see how you all do this because your group is so big. And then I'm like, okay, well instead of trying to motivate these students who are like, I don't want to go (laughs), I'm gonna work with these students who already have the--already energized about meeting together about, you know, centering Black narrative and who want to move that forward. So we attempted to do like events together. So, I feel like a lot of people get F.O.M.O (Fear Of Missing Out), so I'm like, if I make the event cool enough and bring enough people, they're gonna want to come. And so I did a lot of that, and I designed the logo. I fixed the bylaws and I worked a lot with other students because I was like, I think this was like my, ‘cause this was my senior year, I had to do all of this my senior year, graduate, you know, look for a job, all those things. And so I kind of searched for the next presidents. I was like, “Hey, you have the potential. Come with me to this event, I think you would benefit from it.” And I invested time in their development, like, not to pressure you, but I am leaving (laughs) so, it would be great if someone could step into these roles. And so I remember my last year and no one really what was stepping up and I was like, I just have to leave it and hope that it works out. So I went to my mentor, Roger, who at the time was the director of the LGBT Center and I was like, “Can you do me a favor?” (laughs) Can you, because he's an agitator, he, he will make sure like something gets done. So I was like, “Can you please make sure that someone steps up? Cause I'm, I'm graduating, like I can't do any more past this.” So yeah, that was, that was a lot (laughs). De Maria: Yeah. It definitely sounds like you, kind of once again used out of the box style thinking to try and ensure the future of the organization and the health of the organization, which is definitely, definitely needed (laughs) in situations like that. Regarding the relationship between those organizations and just in general on our campus, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with these different organizations devoted to identity expression? Like, what kind of role do you think it inhabits and still inhabits? Bradley: Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 8 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 So, I don't remember the name of it, but my friend G was trying to start like a council for all like, multicultural student organizations to meet--to board leaders to meet together and be able to have a space to discuss issues or concerns or what have you together like a, quasi-United Nations (laughs), if you will. So I think that was the first time I kind of saw the way that the Cross-Cultural (Center) can collaborate, and empower, and equip student organizations to not only self-express, but also to address matters that are important for them. Or how to just really have representation. Because I think that was really important. Like, for me, coming from a place where there wasn't that growing up, like I remember (laughs), I remember going to the Career Center on campus and there was this--stand and repeat, and it had a Black student on it. And then I don't remember what the language was underneath it, but it basically implied as what I had interpreted of it, was that like, Black students aren't gonna get employed, something like that. And I was like, “You have to change that.” (laughs) That's not gonna work. Like, that's not gonna bring Black students in here. You need to show them, themselves in the careers that they want, because they're out there. There are successful people of color. And so--I mean, same thing with like posters around campus. I'm like, “Who made that? There's not enough people that look diverse enough for that to be representing our campus.” So yeah I think it, it, it equips and empowers, not only like the board members on those--because like we had free printing. The Student Life and Leadership Center had a place where you could make a-frames, like you could make the materials that you need. Like you didn't have to do everything out of pocket. And especially for marginalized, you know minority groups. Sometimes money is not something that you have to just make materials for. I remember (laughs) the biggest thing for like, I feel like students tend to get behind is like, “Do I get a T-shirt (laughs)?” If you have swag for them, they're like, “Yeah, I'll definitely show up.” So I was like, we need to get T-shirts for Black Student Union. And because I was a student, because I worked, or you know, worked at the Cross-Cultural Center and I knew the resources they had available, I was like, “I know what website to make it on. I can order them. I can have them, have it done. I know where to go to get scholarships for our group.” So I think, that is what's really like, special about that relationship with, you know, centers who work with student organizations. De Maria: Yeah, totally. That's super cool. I heard on swag, that is definitely a great way to get, to get people in through the door and get your message heard, funnily enough. My next set of questions and the, the questions that we'll kind of wrap up on are a little bit more abstract. So I just wanted to ask you how your experiences with Cross-Cultural Center, as well as Black Student Union on that note, impacted your professional path and what you currently do? Bradley: So I'm, I'm sort of in a career transition space, so I wouldn't necessarily say that those experiences impacted my profession. I would say they impacted me personally and my politics. I think it opened my Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 9 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 eyes to a lot of different things, organizations, what people are doing in the community and it motivated me to serve the community in a different way. Right after college, I ended up going on a missions trip in Fresno, and seeing poverty in a different way. And I also worked with Inner City Youth in Escondido as well as here in Central San Diego. So I think it definitely shaped my passion for development. And I guess in some ways I still sort of do that in my role now. But my job I would say is, more like financially driven decisions versus passions and what sort of shaped me there. But after--I believe it, after (George) Floyd was murdered? I think it was during the pandemic like, 2020, when that whole bit happened. I mean I was going to protests before then. Like I went to the Women's March, I went to some other protests as well. I even brought some of my students (laughs). I was like, “This is what a protest is.” And so when that happened in the pandemic, it just, it's hard because it's like wrapped around tragedy, you know, these things that are so unjust that it, (laughs) I was telling my therapist that I have like an--eloquent rage. Like I want (laughs) to do things in a certain way that will affect change in the system that's already existing. Sometimes I do want to be very radical, but also I just don't want like Black people to keep dying, you know? And so I actually ended up kind of getting my boyfriend at the time into that too. I think he had always been like into it, but the way that he would protest is virtually. And I'm like, come see what it's like grassroots. Because It's a different feeling. And so we went in our cars, and we went up to like La Jolla and came back to central San Diego and then went all the way down to National City as a protest. And there was like hundreds of cars, it was all over the news. We had made posters. It was like a huge thing. And I feel like, that moment kind of reminded me of when I was at the Social Justice Summits and watching someone's lightbulb turn on almost like, oh wow, like this is what it, what it's like, l being in solidarity with other, with others and wanting the change that we need. We don't want individuals to be brutalized and murdered by individuals that we thought we could trust to keep us safe, you know? And so I get, I get chills thinking about it. I remember there was one student, he was like, “How can you just get up there and like, speak on the mic and not be afraid?” And I'm like, “I am afraid!” I'm very afraid, but I also don't want this to happen anymore. It's not okay. And so I would rather be afraid and find the courage to get through it, than be afraid and do nothing. De Maria: Absolutely. And I'm sorry, it's just super profound (laughs) super profound things that you're talking about. And also just so much value in being able to relate those experiences back together. And also, again, tangibly seeing results from, your own efforts make--be them personal or professional. So very, very cool. Just a few more questions left. What direction do you think the Cross-Cultural Center should grow in? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 10 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Bradley: I visit like maybe every, two or three years (both laughs). So I don't know what the last three years have been because I, the la--I think the last time I went to campus was like maybe (20)17 or (20)18. So it's been a while since I've been there. And it's a different, it's a different vibe than how it was when I was there. We were like a smaller center, you know, we didn't have this beautiful (University) Student Union. We had the Commons, and if anyone knows what the Commons are, there were these small little rooms, (laughs) that we just made work, you know? And they would be filled with students. And so I remember seeing the blueprints of this Student Union. And for me, I'm just like, “This is awesome!” I feel like I was, you know, part of the building blocks of this, and I'm just honestly proud of how things have evolved. I will say (laughs) the, this is maybe not necessarily like the Cross-Cultural Center, but I've heard that the parking permits there are ridiculous. Like, for passes, like I go, I, I got my master's at University of San Diego, their annual passes are under a hundred dollars. And so to have a parking pass that's $600 or something like that, I was like, that's wild. If I was there, I'd be protesting about it. This is ridiculous. Like, what are you, let me see your (laughs), let me see your expenditure sheets, let me see your multi-year budget plans, because this doesn't make sense, like it should not be that expensive. I really don't know what the student activism looks like. You know, I know that when I was there that a lot of people kind of saw the Cross-Cultural Center as like a Pan-Asian space, because that's kind of a lot of the students that would come to that space. And so when I was there, I was like, I want to see everybody (laughs). I want to go and like find where you guys are and let you know, this is here, like MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan) come over, you know, Black students come over. I'd be like, “Okay, what movie do you want to see? (laughs) I'm about to put it on the TV. You know, like make you feel comfortable. So yeah, I think that's kind of something that was needed then. I don't know what it's like now. I know when I kind of like popped in it's--there was mostly Asian students there, but you know, I think as long as students are using the space, I think that's what matters most. That's what it's there for. I think it's great that you know, peer educators can, I don't know if they're doing this now, but when I was there, I would go into classrooms and I would teach curriculum to students about identity and allyship. So I hope that they're still doing stuff like that because there are situations where I--where it impacts the world, it impacts, you know, that, that macrocosm. And in turn we, you know, sometimes professors don't know what to say and some of those students might be having a hard time being present, learning about, I don't know, whatever subject, like microorganisms, (laughs), you know what I mean? And so how can you as a professor tie in like what's going on in the world to address it, but also like be there for the students in a way that, you know, maybe is not necessarily like a savior complex, but in a way that's supportive. Like “I see you, I see that, you know, this could be something that, you may or may not be noticing in life or affected by, but there's this place where you can go,” or like bringing in those students to those classrooms. And nothing against the hard sciences. We love math, we love science. But you know, sometimes those spaces are very black and white and the Cross-Cultural Center lives in a gray space. And so to be able to show students that and help them with identity development, because like I Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 11 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 said, college is such a unique time. You’re a quasi-adult, but not really. And you have to take on all these responsibilities in addition to graduating. So. De Maria: Yeah. Absolutely. My next question, and again this is going to kind of reference the current landscape of CSUSM. So don't worry if you can't think of like a super accurate answer or anything. You can also comment about the time, like around the time that you graduated and moved on. But what communities do you feel are underrepresented on campus? Bradley: Hmm... I don't really know. I know like when I was a student... so, I know I, I definitely got involved with like undocumented students ’cause that experience was something that I personally didn't have like experience in. But I had a friend, several friends, who were undocumented. And I remember going to Social Justice Summit and having that lightbulb. And we were talking about undocumented students and I was like, “Oh my God.” Like I drove one of my friends who I know is undocumented and I didn't have like (laughs), this is again, me living rebelliously. I was driving, and my license plate was expired or something like that? And I was like, “Oh my gosh.” If I had gotten pulled over and this police officer wasn't chill, I could have endangered my friend. And so, I think it grew my like empathy for that community. I remember their group was like, sort of active, sort of not, at the time when I was a student. I think MEChA-DeMaria: Um-hmm. Bradley: Is such a big organization like nationally that sometimes the undocumented experience kind of becomes adjacent to that. So one of the friends that I was referring to, I believe she served in a leadership role for, I don't remember what the name of that undocumented student organization was, but I remember her talking about that and kind of trying to differentiate that group as a result. I also have another friend that I still talk to today. She created an organization called Et Cetera. And her whole goal was to be a catchall for the others. Like you're not really feeling like a certain cultural identity. Like maybe you don't want to be in the math group, like maybe you don't want to be in a fraternity, like come to Et Cetera (laughs). And so I thought that that was really cool that she wanted to create a space for individuals who either like myself live in like a duality, or others who just maybe don't identify in a particular space. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 12 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 De Maria: Totally. I have two questions left to just wrap things up. So first one, what is the most important lesson you've taken from your experience with the Cross-Cultural Center? Bradley: There were so many lessons (both laughs). Definitely difficult to pick one. I think I, I, I learned my power. And at that time I learned a, that I had power and leadership potential, but also that how to use it, in a way that would affect change. Like I remember when--I hope that this tabloid paper doesn't exist on that campus anymore. Because If it does, I'm driving (laughs) to make sure it's not there. But--they, it was called The Koala. The Koala also existed on I think UCSD (University of California San Diego), but basically it was a tabloid paper, and they would just write, just excuse my language, but like, bullshit about people, about groups, about minority groups. And they're like, “Oh, but it's satire.” And I'm like, “This still doesn't make it okay.” I was such an agitator to them that they put me in one of their editions. And so I remember noticing that this was not okay, you know, me stepping into my power and then I protested by myself. I was like, I'm gonna stand next to you. I'm not gonna say anything, but I'm gonna hold this sign up, and I'm gonna stand next to you, so that other people understand that this is not okay and that you shouldn't be passing this out on campus. And like my friends were like coming up to me and they're like, “Oh my gosh, like you are so awesome for doing this." And I connected with other campuses and I'm like, “What are you guys doing about this (laughs) paper?” Because you know, such and such. And then I remember other people kind of in solidarity doing other things to expose the students and who are doing these salacious things, like who the editor was (laughs). They wrote it on the steps, like the steps that are next to the clock. They wrote the names of all the members in the organization. This person is in it and this person is in it and they want to hide, but (laughs), they're not gonna hide. We're gonna bring them to light. They actually bit their--put their own shoe in their mouth. But I think the editor attempted to run for ASI president. De Maria: Right? Bradley: And if he had accomplished his goal, that paper would've been basically passed out, like how the Cougar News (student newspaper) gets passed out. But he ended up (laughs) fraud, like basically doing identity theft and faking votes so that he could win. So I was like, “Well, not only did you lose, but you also are gonna have to be prosecuted for like 500 counts of identity theft.” And that's a federal offense (laughs). So I think it was a mixture of, you know, stepping into my power, but also knowing that I have, like I have a cap, I have a battery, at some point my battery is gonna go down and I need to recharge. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 13 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 So I think that was another lesson that I learned, was like how to recharge, how to self-preserve. Because I know there were times that I was doing a lot of things. And even just thinking about it, I was like, “That sounds like a lot like (laughs). When did you have you time?” I remember there was a point where I had stopped making such a fuss about that paper, and there was a student who was doing a class project where they were interviewing people about that paper. And I was like, I wrote in the comments, I was like, “Don't stop agitating, keep going.” So even in my time of preservation, I was still encouraging others to develop their power and what they found to be important for them. De Maria: Yeah. So comments on that. That's a really crazy intense story. And also just on a personal level, I'm glad that you were there to be the initial agitator essentially. And you know, just, affect that change, like how you said. So that's definitely a demonstration of power (laughs) used responsibly and for a good end. Bradley: Yeah. De Maria: Which is very, very cool. For my final question, I want to relate back to something you said at the very beginning of the interview. You described feeling like an other in your community growing up in Orange County. So, I just would like to know, as someone who has also felt like an other growing up in a community, if someone feels that way, what tips or advice would you give them to start agitating or get involved in social justice? Bradley: I mean--I feel like my experiences as an other sort of like, I describe it like a butterfly, because I am like-ambiguous (laughs) physically and mentally. I just kind of butterfly my way through groups and I learn from all those experiences. So being an other doesn't necessarily have to define you into the other box. It can give you capacity to be in every box. I remember my sister for those demographic questions where they're like, “What race are you?” And she was like, “I just check all of them!” (laughs) So in a way you just check all of them. You can go into this group, you can go into that group and people would welcome me, like regardless. So that was like really nice, to experience. But also I think-- I don't know if every school campus has like a Social Justice Summit type of thing, but I honestly think that something like that definitely informs the way that you develop in your social justice identity or your social justice, activism. But honestly, you could, just join a march, like when they had the Women's March or I think there was another march for all of the like school shootings that were happening that were student led. Just being a part of grassroots organizations can shape that activist part in individuals Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 14 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 as well as shaping identity, you know. But I think what I noticed in school (laughs) is when you learn about other cultures, especially in American history, it's terrible. They don't really put you into this really wonderful light. It's like genocide, slavery, and then President Obama (laughs). And you're like, okay--but where's all the in between? And so, you know, even just having literature, I would hope you know that the Kellogg Library has a lot of options, but I had friends who gave me literature that helped me to develop that part of myself and to see--people who looked like me that were successful, but also people who were affecting change. Who were women, who were, you know, minority groups, who were young. I think for me, growing up in a single parent household, you want to, or at least for me, I wanted to see a strong woman and like my grandma, she's definitely a part of my strong personality, but also it's like different when it's not your mom. And so for me, I was like looking for that maternal figure and so I found it a lot in supervisors, or professors, and I was like, that's the kind of woman that I want to be, who doesn't just sit and let things happen but will be willing to stand up for what I believe in. De Maria: I think that's excellent advice. And again, just, a manifestation of taking pride in your identity rather than allowing that box or that label to define you or your actions, even if those actions are advantageous to social justice. So I completely get that. Bradley: Yeah De Maria: And with that, I know that we're at time. So I just wanted to thank you for taking the time out for this interview, Chanel. We definitely covered a lot, in terms of your personal experience, and I also learned a lot more about the CCC as I continue to interview more people for this project and kind of embark on this journey myself. So overall, just wanted to thank you for opening up and allowing others to be part of that experience and kind of understand what you went through and what you did. Bradley: Yeah, definitely. Well, if you want any contacts for other people--who to interview or if you have enough, that's cool too. (Both laugh) If you want some of the OGs, (De Maria laughs) I still talk to them. De Maria: Absolutely. We'll talk offline, but (both laugh) Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 15 2023-10-06 �CHANEL BRADLEY TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Bradley: Yeah. De Maria: Thank you so much Chanel Bradley: You’re welcome, okay. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 16 2023-10-06 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bradley, Chanel. Interview transcript. April 14, 2023. Description An account of the resource Chanel Bradley is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Women's and Gender Studies in 2012. Chanel worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2012 and was involved in various social identity related causes on campus. In this interview, Chanel discusses her experience as a peer educator at the Cross-Cultural Center and her recollections of the center during her time at CSUSM. Bradley was also involved in the Women's Center [now Gender Equity Center]. In her interview, Bradley also recalls how she revived the campus Black Student Union, protested the unauthorized student newspaper, The Koala, and came into her power. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chanel Bradley Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael De Maria Geneva Martinot Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-12 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Civil rights Civil rights demonstrations -- California -- San Marcos Education, Higher Human rights Minorities in higher education Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Chanel Bradley Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BradleyChanel_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-14_transcript Activists and activism Black experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/ea24b429155af41d444a44919d85e657.pdf ab3045bf6d40ed747bf10654c0b06d48 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Knowles, Cheryl (Cheryl Dinning). Interview transcript, May 16, 2013. Description An account of the resource Transcript of interview of Cheryl Knowles (Cheryl Dinning), Petty Officer First Class, United States Navy. In her interview, Knowles discusses her enlistment, basic and advanced training, and four deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. Knowles also discusses life in the Navy, including shipboard life, as well as what it was like serving in the Navy as a lesbian during the Don't Act, Don't Tell era, and how it forced her to lead a double life and impacted her ability to be her genuine self and to grieve the loss of her daughter. This interview was conducted as part of the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project, now called the CSUSM Veterans Voices project. WAHA was conducted by the California State University San Marcos History Department in collaboration with the CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center) from 2012-2013. The project aimed to document, preserve, and make accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. Portions of this interview were edited, including the removal of the interviewer from the recording. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cheryl Knowles (Cheryl Dinning) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Anthony Mino California State University San Marcos. History Department Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-16 Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001-2021 Gay military personnel--United States Great Lakes Naval Training Center (Great Lakes, Ill.) Iraq War, 2003-2011 LGBTQ+ life United States. Navy United States. Navy -- Recruiting, enlistment, etc. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Afghanistan Dubai Iraq San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived War At Home and Abroad oral histories Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/4/resources/55">CSUSM Veterans Voices oral histories</a> (external link) Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KnowlesCheryl_WAHA_2013-05-16_transcript Community history CSUSM Veterans Voices LGBTQIA+ experience Veteran experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Cheryl Dinning OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DinningCheryl_WAHA_2013-05-16.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Knowles, Cheryl (Cheryl Dinning). Interview May 16, 2013 WAHA-01 00:00:00 HIST-01 CSUSM Veterans Voices oral histories CSUSM This interview was conducted as part of the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project, now called the CSUSM Veterans Voices project. WAHA was conducted by the California State University San Marcos History Department in collaboration with the CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center) from 2012-2013. The project aimed to document, preserve, and make accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. csusm United States. Navy ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; Gay military personnel--United States ; Afghan War, 2001-2021 ; LGBTQ+ life Cheryl Dinning video DinningCheryl_WAHA_2013-05-16.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/404f80c9a30af3ea36457e736a0d34f2.mp4 Other video English 0 Knowles’ background and enlistment with the U.S. Navy Cheryl Knowles (Cheryl Dinning) discusses her place of birth and why and how she ended up enlisting in the United States Navy. Whittier, California ; enlistment ; U.S. Navy ; 9/11 terrorist attack ; Great Lakes, Illinois 0 138 Basic Training Knowles describes her experience during Basic Training, including her impressions, role within her unit, and what she learned. U.S. Navy Basic Training 0 255 Experience during Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell Knowles recounts her experience during A School, where she met a girl and started a relationship, and was eventually outed. Knowles describes her process to discharge, her secret romantic life, and how she escaped discharge, including her marriage to a sailor for the sake of appearances. Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell ; machinist training ; sham marriages ; discrimination ; A School 0 605 First tour of duty Knowles speaks to her first tour of duty, “shore duty” in San Diego repairing survival equipment sent out to ships. She also discusses being a woman and being in the closet in the Navy. shore duty ; San Diego, California ; woman and gay experience in the Navy 0 703 First onboard duty and first deployment Knowles recounts her first ship-side duty as a machinist on the USS Ronald Reagan, beginning 2005, and her first deployment in 2006, where Knowles deployed to Operation Iraqi Freedom. She speaks to the places she stopped on the way to deployment and “the sailor’s life.” Knowles goes into detail about life aboard the USS Ronald Reagan including her work duties, the food, the informal ship economy, and the “political game” of the military, and how she worked within it as a gay woman. Knowles also recounts the specifics of her deployment, and the best parts of being overseas. USS Ronald Reagan ; deployment ; Operation Iraqi Freedom ; machinist ; locksmithing ; ship life ; Subway [sandwiches] ; McDonald’s ; sexism ; shipboard politics ; Damage Control Central ; Dubai ; Ramadan 0 1340 Second deployment Knowles recalls her second deployment, which started six months after returning from her first, when President Obama started the Afghanistan troop surge. Knowles recounts their ship launching bombing runs over Afghanistan, prayer services for pilots onboard the USS Ronald Reagan, and her misgivings about those services. USS Ronald Reagan ; deployment ; Afghanistan war ; bombing runs ; shipboard prayer and religion 0 1446 Third deployment Knowles describes her third deployment aboard the USS Ronald Reagan, back to Afghanistan to “drop warheads on foreheads,” and her increasing disillusionment with the ongoing wars she was being deployed to. Knowles also speaks to her brief periods back home, and how her short time at home impacted her. USS Ronald Reagan ; deployment ; Afghanistan war ; bombing runs ; disillusionment ; binge drinking 0 1559 Fourth deployment and release Knowles briefly delves into her fourth deployment and finally, in July 2009, her release from ship life, where she returned to advanced machining school. USS Ronald Reagan ; deployment ; advanced machining school 0 1607 Shoreside life and loss Knowles recounts her partner’s fertility treatments and the birth of her two daughters, describing in detail the medical emergency and passing of one of her newborns. Knowles discusses the difficulty of therapy and leave time for her in the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell era, and how that policy impacted her grieving process. Knowles also recounts her use of Navy Fertility Services a year later, and the ways in which she benefitted from her time in the Navy, as well as the ways in which she views the hypocrisy of “The Sailor’s Creed” in how the U.S. Navy treats gays, women, and minorities. U.S. Navy Fertility Services ; Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell ; pregnancy ; infant mortality ; The Sailor’s Creed 0 1978 Separation from Navy Knowles briefly touches on her separation from the Navy and her joining of the U.S. Navy Reserves. separation ; U.S. Navy Reserves 0 2023 Interview conclusion, communication Knowles concludes her interview by talking about how the Navy facilitated communication with family and friends while she was deployed, as well as social media use in the Navy. communication ; email ; U.S. Postal Service ; Facebook ; calling cards 0 Interview with Cheryl Knowles (Cheryl Dinning), Petty Officer First Class, United States Navy. In her interview, Dinning discusses her enlistment, basic and advanced training, and four deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. Knowles also discusses life in the Navy, including shipboard life, as well as what it was like serving in the Navy as a lesbian during the Don't Act, Don't Tell era, an how if forced her to lead a double life and impacted her ability to be her genuine self and to grieve the loss of her daughter. &#13 ; &#13 ; This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, facilitated by the California State University San Marcos History Department, from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:04.144 --> 00:00:05.365 &lt ; Silence&gt ; . 00:00:05.365 --> 00:01:02.155 My name is Cheryl Knowles. I was born in Whittier, California, a suburb of Los Angeles. I joined the Navy in April of 2002. I served during operation Iraqi and Enduring Freedom as an E-6. I come from a large extended family of military, mostly Army. I have uncles that are, uh, colonels and generals in the Army, uh, stationed on the East Coast. My grandfather, who I was closest to, was in the Air Force during the Vietnam War, and he pretty much inspired me to want to join the military, listening to his war stories and the time in the service. I decided pretty much when I was a kid that I wanted to join the military. I remember watching war movies and school, movies about boarding school and military schools. And I was always fascinated with that life. And I just knew, I knew in high school that I was going to join. 00:01:02.155 --> 00:02:18.094 I tried to do the college thing after high school and get a real job in the civilian world, live out on my own, uh, before I joined the military. And it wasn't until after 9/11, uh, which reaffirmed my assumptions that that's where I belonged. Six months after the 9/11 attack, I found myself in a Marine recruiting office. Um, they sent me on my way though, saying that I had too many tattoos. My next stop was the Army recruiting office. And, I probably could have joined the army, but I was looking to pretty much ship out the next day, and their process was taking a little bit longer. And on my way back to my car, just walking past the Navy recruiter, which I had no intentions of going in and talking to them, um, a couple sailors pulled me inside and said, Hey, you know, what are you doing here? Are you interested in the Navy? I'm like, yeah, but you know, I got tattoos, and, you know. And they're like, come with us, we'll get you in. So I did the testing, the physical process, and I was shipped off to Great Lakes, Illinois two weeks later for bootcamp. 00:02:18.094 --> 00:03:21.000 Navy Basic Training was great. I had a great time. It was basically summer camp gone wrong, you know, coming from trying to live on my own as a young teenager, young adult, and working in the civilian world struggling to get by. I now had people walking me to medical, making me get my teeth clean, walking me to breakfast, lunch and dinner. And, you know, I got eight hours of sleep at night, and pretty much everything was done for us. You basically just had to keep your mouth shut and your head down, and that's how it went. Um, I made a lot of friends in basic training. I was kind of like the, the unit clown. I had a sense of humor about everything just because I was a little bit older than the other recruits. So, I was a little more boisterous than the others. And, you know I got in a little bit of trouble here and there, but it was mostly "drop and gimme twenty" or "gimme some pushups and sit-ups." But, you know, I was all about that. So, I had a great time with it. 00:03:21.000 --> 00:04:15.205 Basic training was interesting in the sense that this was the first time I was in a large group of people from basically all walks of life, people from all over the country. We had people from different countries, different religious views, political views, crazy people, weird people, funny people. So it was, um, it was a learning, it was a learning experience, trying to get used to working together as a team with people that think differently than you. But it was a good time! And I learned a lot about people, and I learned a lot about different parts of the country and how diverse we are. But, you know, we came together and we worked as a team, and we all survived via nine weeks of basic training together. 00:04:15.205 --> 00:10:05.000 Upon finishing basic training, I was sent right across the street with my A School. I was going to a machinist training school that was about eleven weeks long. There I met, um, I met a girl, and this was during the Don't Ask, Don't Tell era. And we were in the same school together. We hung out a lot. We ended up dating. We tried to keep it, you know, on the DL just because we were scared of the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy. And we had heard horror stories about people being outed and kicked out of the military. Um, word got out that we were dating or people thought we were dating, and they reported us to the higher-ups. So one day we both showed up to school, and we were escorted out of school by military police, and we were placed in separate interrogating rooms where we were both asked questions about our sexuality and our relationships to each other. We really didn't have any idea what was going on. It caught us off guard. Um, we didn't admit to anything. We were, you know, basically scared out of our minds because we both wanted to make twenty-year careers out of the Navy. And here they were starting the process to discharge us for homosexual conduct. We were taken out of our training school, and we were placed on a legal hold status where we weren't allowed to continue trading. And they were basically processing us out of the military without any evidence or confessions or anything, just based off of a statement that a roommate I had had made. During that time, we were still allowed to go off base and hang out and stuff, and we did, you know, we weren't doing anything wrong. We would go to Chicago and hang out. We had a hotel that we would go and stay at on the weekends, and the hotel owner would check us in under a male and female name that wasn't our own names, just to kind of cover us, you know, we were staying in the gay area of Chicago. So it was kind of--it was kind of cool and kind of sneaky where we would check in as Mr. and Mrs. something other than what our name was. But basically we were, we were hiding. We were trying to be ourselves, but, you know--in a different, I don't know, identity I guess. Um, one night we were at a club, a gay club in Chicago, and we were just hanging out, having a couple drinks, and in walks one of our chiefs, You can imagine the surprise on her face, you know, we're in a gay bar and here comes one of our superiors walks in. I don't know how she found us, but she basically wanted to tell us that she was gonna go to bat for us, we were gonna be okay, and that we both needed to find a male and, uh, get married. I had met another gay, uh, sailor. His name was Chris. And we were pretty good friends, and we all hung out together. So in my attempt to find a "husband," I pretty much told him the scenario is, "Hey, I need to get married and portray myself as a heterosexual female, and I need a husband, you know? Are you down for it?" And, you know, he thought about it, and it ended up benefiting us both because we would get paid the rate of a married a couple for housing and stuff like that. So, we went to a courthouse in Chicago. We exchanged vows and had an awkward peck on the cheek, and voila, we were married. My girlfriend at the time, Tara, she also got married. She married a friend of a service member who was an immigrant of Poland. And, he needed citizenship. She needed a husband, so she can look like a heterosexual female to stay in the Navy, and so they got married. So here we are, both E-1s, um, scared out of our mind thinking we're gonna get kicked out of the Navy and having to get married to a male. It was just, it was weird. It was awkward, it felt wrong. I had to tell my family about it. It was just--the whole situation was unpleasant. It was scary. Um, I felt like we were targeted and discriminated against, and that's just part of Don't Ask, Don't Tell in the military during that time. After the charges got dropped against us for homosexual conduct, we were both free and clear to finish tech school. And, um, that's what we did for the rest of our time in Chicago. You know, we laid low, made plans to get stationed with our respective "husbands," and just tried to stay out of trouble. I got stationed in San Diego. It was my first duty tour. I joined the Navy to get out of California and to explore the world. So you can imagine my surprise when I saw orders that I was going back to Southern California. I wasn't too happy about it, but it turned out to be a good experience. 00:10:05.000 --> 00:11:43.315 My first tour was on shore duty in San Diego. I was repairing survival equipment that was sent out to the ships, like life rafts and survival food kits and stuff like that. I was the only female working there, and there was probably about twelve males. And the first thing that I got asked when I checked in, uh, had nothing to do with my training, my abilities, my goals. They wanted to know if I was married, and once I told 'em I was married, they wanted to know where he was for how long and it was just like this weird, invasive personal interrogation into my life. But, you know, it just--it just set the tone for the rest of my military career and I know it's a very male dominated profession. And as a female, you have to work twice as hard to prove yourself. And that's what I did the whole time I worked there was I worked, uh, I tried to keep my personal life, my personal life. I had to lie about what I was doing on the weekends and who I was doing it with. Um, you know, and then it was--it was hard. It's hard to live like that and work in an environment where you can't talk about who you went to dinner with the night before, or--or what you're gonna do that weekend. You just, you have to make things up and make it vanilla and cookie cutter and non-interesting. So they stopped asking questions. 00:11:43.315 --> 00:13:11.845 I worked there for two years, and then I got transferred to my first ship, which was the USS Ronald Reagan. I felt comfortable taking orders there because my girlfriend from A School who became my best friend--uh, the dating thing didn't really work out with us. But, she was stationed there. And her supervisor, or my supervisor too, was also gay. So I felt comfortable taking orders there. I was excited and looking forward to it. And I checked on board in February of 2005. We spent a lot of time out to sea that year. In preparation for the ship's first deployment. We deployed for the first time in January of 2006. And, uh, we were heading over to the Operation Iraqi Freedom. On the way there, we stopped in a few countries ; Australia, Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong, um--and I think Japan. But we would stop in these countries for three or four days at a time, and we'd get off the ship, go blow some steam out in town, do a lot of drinking. The guys would all go get hookers and--it's the sailor life, I guess. 00:13:11.845 --> 00:14:21.000 My job aboard the ship was a machinist. So I worked down in the machine shop with about twelve other machinists. And we were also connected with the welders who also did the plumbing. So we were involved with the ship's sanitation system as well. And there was a lot of times where I was knee deep in a bathroom that's overflowed with, uh, with poop and pee, trying to stop it from flooding the rest of the ship. I was also the ship's only locksmith. I went to a security institute in Kentucky and got trained on basic locksmithing and safes and vaults. So, on an aircraft carrier there's typically three to four thousand safes. So I kept pretty busy. I was also the only locksmith for our battle group, which included about six other ships as well. So whenever something would break on another ship I would helicopter off my ship and spend the night on another boat for a night or two until it took me to, uh, however long it took me to do the repair. 00:14:21.000 --> 00:17:31.000 Ship life is interesting. Um, we lived in a small confined space with about sixty females. Our racks were stacked three high. The middle rack is the ideal place to, you know, to sleep. So eventually I got a middle rack. We had a small locker, and our mattress lifted up, which exposed more storage space. There wasn't much room for storage, so you pretty much took what you could, the basics. Underwear, socks, and t-shirts. A few pairs of civilian clothes, and the rest was room for your uniforms and toiletries. We had two showers for sixty females. Three toilets and two sinks. You would imagine that it would be super crowded in the mornings, but with the way shifts work out the sea, we have a night shift, the day shift, um, people that sleep a little bit later because they had watched throughout the night or whatnot. So, mornings were a little bit crowded, but it wasn't ridiculous as you would think it would be with sixty females trying to, you know, line up for two showers. The food was good starting out on deployment. The farther away from the United States, you get, the more food you get imported from different places. So once we got to the Middle East, the milk, uh, changed color and texture. The lettuce, by the time it would reach us was brown. Vegetables weren't really good. Lunch meat was--colorful, but, um, ship life is about networking. So if you know somebody who works in the galley or works in the chiefs' mess or where the officers eat and you can do something for them, then you're gonna get taken care of food-wise. I ran the laser engraving shop that--you know, I can make signed, engraved coffee cups or pretty much anything. So, pretty--everybody wanted to send home gifts to their family. So I did a lot of engraving of personal items in return for real food and cooked food and cookies and snacks and stuff like that. I got my laundry done, so I rarely had to wait in line to use the washers and dryers, which is mass chaos on a ship. Um, I also--I did some work for the post office, you know, on the side. And when they would fly on mail, the postal guys on shore would go and pick up pizzas or Subway and throw 'em in the mailbox--mail bags. And even though it took a few hours or eight hours to reach the ship, by the time he got those cold McDonald's hamburgers or pizza, they were the best, best things you've ever had. 00:17:31.000 --> 00:19:34.000 Um, being a worker in engineering, I had to prove myself as a female. Like I said, you had to work twice as hard to prove that you could do the job of a male, and it was common for girls or females to, you know, not want to do their job, and they'd get placed in more like an admin type of a setting and less engineering, less hands-on. And that's just what some, you know, females prefer. But I wanted to be out there with the guys getting my hands dirty and stuff, so that's what I did. And it took a while but I gained the respect of the guys that I worked with, and they pretty much--they just start thinking of you as one of the guys. My sexuality was never an issue while I was on that ship. I worked with some of the coolest guys you'd ever meet. They treated me fairly. We made gay jokes or whatever, and, you know, it was cool. I was just like one of the guys. The military is kind of a game. It's a political game. It's all about who you know, good ole' boys club, and doing what you got to do to--to get ahead. Promotions and evaluations aren't based fairly, It's based on who likes you and its popularity contest. On my ship, I learned to play the game, and I did it well, and I got good evals. Sometimes you have to keep your mouth shut and let things slide, like, you know, I put up with some sexual harassment and--and stuff like that, and physical assaults. But, I just felt at the time that this is the way it is, and me complaining about something that's going on would just come back negatively on myself. And so, you just learn to let things go and kind of just join in, I guess. 00:19:34.000 --> 00:20:45.935 Being deployed to the Iraq area of operation, um, it was really hot out there. The food that we got on board, it wasn't good. We spent long hours working, because the air conditioning would stop working or we'd have problems making water. So, uh, we were pulling like eighteen-hour days. On top of that we would have watches in the middle of the night where we would sit down in Damage Control Central. We were basically the 9-1-1 / 4-1-1 dispatcher for the entire ship. Um, we had four hour watches while we were out to sea, and they rotated throughout the day. So if you ended up working from seven in the morning until ten at night, and then you had to be on watch from midnight to four am and you're only gonna get about two hours sleep before you had to get up and start working again. And that was just the way it was. You know, we just, we lived on Red Bull and taking Xenadrine and, you know, little sleep. 00:20:45.935 --> 00:22:20.000 Some of the best parts of deploying overseas were visiting different countries on the way to our area of operation and on the way home. Um, checking out the different cultures in Asia was a lot of fun. And I learned a lot about bargaining and drinking and met some really nice people. Um, a lot of, uh, a lot of shadiness goes on behind the scenes with people trying to solicit themselves sexually or trying to sell us drugs and aftermarket, fake watches and stuff like that. But, um, there was a lot of people that got in trouble, you know, no doubt. But, every time we would pull into a port, they would brief us on what to look out for, different customs and courtesies in the country, what to do, what not to do. Like, we pulled into Dubai and it was the end of Ramadan, so, they basically told us that we weren't allowed to drink until Ramadan was over. And that people, you know, they would stop throughout the day and pray and stuff, and just to stand by, let them pray and then continue on what we're doing, not to keep talking and yelling or taking pictures and stuff like that. Basically just telling us how to act. 00:22:20.000 --> 00:24:06.555 Six months after returning from our first deployment, President Obama started the surge to Afghanistan. And, we were the first aircraft carrier to be sent over there. So, just as we were unpacking from a deployment, we were throwing our stuff back in our sea bag and getting ready to head out again. This one, uh, we didn't have as many port visits just because we were in a quick hurry to get over where we needed to be. And, once we got there, we basically launched planes that drop bombs over Afghanistan and return. And it was pretty cool because they would record it and they would play it on the ship's TVs. And we'd get to watch like bombs drop, and you can see the explosions and stuff like that. What I found interesting was, every night before we go to sleep, the chaplain comes on the ship's intercom and does an evening prayer. I'm not religious at all. And I was actually, you know, I got kind of tired of having to listen to evening prayers every night because I felt like they were kind of forcing prayer and religion in the military. But I don't know. Anyways, they would--they would pray and, um, they would pray for the safety of our pilots as we're dropping bombs that are killing essentially civilians and people. And they were just, I don't know, using Christianity to justify war, I guess. And I mean, I'm not an expert on the Bible, but I'm--you know, isn't God and religion against war? And here we are, interpreting the Bible to justify what we're doing over there. 00:24:06.555 --> 00:25:25.000 Our surge deployment lasted about four months, and then we were headed back to San Diego or, you know, home port. And then, um, we deployed again the next year back to Afghanistan, where we sat off the coast for six months, doing the same thing. Flying jets, uh, "dropping warheads on foreheads." And by this time, this was my third deployment in three years. I was over it. I'm like, why are we here? What are we doing? You know, when we first deployed to Iraq, I was like, why? What are we here? What are we doing? If we're here because of 9/11 and the bad guys are in Afghanistan, why are we looking for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? But anyways, you just don't question anything. I guess you just do your job like a good soldier or sailor. But by my third deployment, I was--you know I was tired. Tired. I didn't believe in the mission anymore. I wanted to go home, I missed my family. I had missed funerals and weddings, and my nephew was born. I was just tired of it, and I was like, what is this for? Why am I doing all this? 00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:59.184 Time in port turns into drink fests because you didn't know when you were going to be deployed or sent out to sea again. And our schedule was so busy. We'd come back from a six-month deployment, and we'd be home for, you know, two weeks, then we'd be back out to sea doing exercises again for another month. So being home was like a--we treated it like a port visit, so it was just like nonstop partying and drinking, and, you know, it was just, it was just, it was bad. &lt ; laugh&gt ; . 00:25:59.184 --> 00:26:47.955 By the time my fourth deployment came around, I was just about to transfer to a new duty station, but I still left and did half the deployment with my ship and my crew. Um, and I was way over it by then. I'm like, I don't want to do anything. So I, I just pretty much chilled and hung out and talked with everybody and didn't really take much seriously. And then in July of 2009, I was finally, you know, released from ship life. And I was sent back to the States to go to advanced machining school before I went to my next command. And I was pretty excited because I was gonna be off the ship for two years, and I could sustain some sort of normalcy in my life. 00:26:47.955 --> 00:30:38.914 During this time on shore duty, my partner and I--we had been together since right before my second deployment in 2007. So this is 2009 now. And we were in our thirties, so, you know, we're discussing kids and stuff, and we, uh, we started using fertility treatments through the military, in order to get pregnant. And while I was on shore duty, my partner Nicole, she got pregnant with twins, and I was able to be there for all of the doctor's appointments. Although I had to lie and say I had medical appointments to go to, and I was very fortunate that nobody ever questioned me where I was going or why I was leaving early. I was basically allowed to--I was in charge of the, uh, the machine shop, so I pretty much did what I wanted to do. The work still got done though, but I prioritized my personal life a little bit above what was going on at work. The twins were born prematurely in February of 2009. And, one of 'em quickly deteriorated and had to be transferred to a children's hospital. This got a little complicated with work because, I wasn't able to talk about, you know, the fact that I was about to be a parent. The fact that I had a partner, or the fact that I had an infant that was really, really sick. So the next day after they were born, I had to go back to work, and I had to leave Nicole in the hospital with one baby, and the other one was at (Rady) Children's Hospital. I got a phone call while I was work saying that I needed to get to the hospital, right away at Children's Hospital. And I had to drive over to UCSD to get Nicole discharged as soon as she could. She'd had a C-section. She could barely walk, but I kind of threw her in the car. And we got over to Children's Hospital, and we were able to hold our daughter before she, she died. Uh, she had a heart defect that caused other problems, and she didn't make it. I was still in uniform that day, just because I had come from work, and I knew that there was no way that I could go back to work that day or the next day. I just didn't know what to do. So, I got ahold of the Command Master Chief. I was pretty sure that she was gay, even though she was a Command Master Chief. So she's playing the political game of, um, hiding it, I guess. Anyways she wanted--she made me lie and say that it was my sister and my sister's baby that died. And, um, I mean, I was able to go on emergency leave or whatever, but I wasn't allowed the same, I don't know, grievance, um, bereavement leave of somebody else who had a close family member die, or the counseling and the support really, from the command. Usually if there was a death or a problem of command, we'd all pull together and raise money and send flowers or anything just for, you know, for everybody, for anything. But, you know, this tragic situation I was going through had to be a secret and a lie. 00:30:38.914 --> 00:31:40.204 A year later. I used Navy Fertility Services to, um--and I got pregnant this time. We already had our daughter, Avery, who was about one years old, and I got pregnant with our second child, Luca, through the Navy. And, I was discharged off of active duty before she was actually born. But, you know, if there's anything about the Navy that I could say good is they take care of, they take care of you. The fertility center never questioned. Um, you know, where's your husband? Why are you infertile? They gave me the medicines, did the procedures, and never asked questions. So, you know, because of the Navy, I've got two beautiful girls. I was able to buy a house. I'm able to use my post-9/11 GI Bill. I'm studying at Cal State San Marcos, about to transfer to UMass Boston. I mean, I just, I wouldn't be where I'm at today if it wasn't for the Navy. 00:31:40.204 --> 00:32:58.000 With that said, I did endure a bunch of bullshit along the way. You know, being a gay service member during Don't Ask, Don't Tell. The last line of (The) Sailor's Creed is, "I'm committed to excellence and the fair treatment of all." And we say The Sailor's Creed every single morning, and we say it before award ceremonies, we say it when we go through promotion boards, and I'm like, who wrote this thing? And fair treatment of all of, of all? Of all, except for gays, except for women, except for minorities, you know, fair treatment of all. It's a bunch of crap. I guess I do hold a lot of resentment, because I was out there defending, uh, defending freedoms that I myself couldn't even take for granted. Like I couldn't even say that I was in a relationship with somebody. I couldn't get spousal marriage privileges to who I really wanted to be married to. Instead, I had to marry a guy who I didn't even really like anymore. But, I was getting extra benefits for that. You know, the system's definitely flawed. 00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:43.516 I separated in February, 2012. The military started downsizing. So I finished my reenlistment and I was denied my request to reenlist. So I joined the Navy Reserves, and that's what I'm doing now. Um, I don't like it. I don't want to do it anymore. Um, I'm kind of, I feel like I've finished what I needed to do with the military. I'm just, I'm just ready to move on and do something else. And I am proud of what I did and all I accomplished and what The Navy has done for me. But I think it's time to go. 00:33:43.516 --> 00:35:37.516 Just to answer some of the, uh, the stuff that that's on this outline. As far as communication with family and friends, communication was pretty good. We had email most of the time, unless we had some, some tragic event or we were in harm's way or something, they would shut down email. And the internet, we weren't allowed to use it. But that never lasted longer than a day. So email, we had letters through the postal service, which mail took forever. So basically email. And then towards the end of my last deployment, they started allowing Facebook. They quickly turned it away. I mean turned it off, since people started posting our deployment schedule. But for a while we did have Facebook. We did have internet and the mail. So that's how we did communicating. We also had, uh, sailor phones. It was a dollar a minute, and you would buy a calling card and you can use that. Or if you knew somebody that worked in the communications department, you could use the ship's line. And, there were different codes. To open a line, you can just call out. So, I was able to call my family a lot, and I was constantly on email, so communication was never too big of an issue. Email was basically the reason I got up in the morning. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DinningCheryl_WAHA_2013-05-16.xml DinningCheryl_WAHA_2013-05-16.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/4/resources/55 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Knowles, Cheryl (Cheryl Dinning). Interview May 16, 2013 Description An account of the resource Interview with Cheryl Knowles (Cheryl Dinning), Petty Officer First Class, United States Navy. In her interview, Dinning discusses her enlistment, basic and advanced training, and four deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. Knowles also discusses life in the Navy, including shipboard life, as well as what it was like serving in the Navy as a lesbian during the Don't Act, Don't Tell era, an how if forced her to lead a double life and impacted her ability to be her genuine self and to grieve the loss of her daughter. This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, facilitated by the California State University San Marcos History Department, from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WAHA-01 Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001-2021 Gay military personnel -- United States Iraq War, 2003-2011 LGBTQ+ life United States. Navy Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cheryl Knowles (Cheryl Dinning) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> CSUSM Veterans Voices LGBTQIA+ experience Veteran experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Alexa Clausen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Daniel Flores Rios OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-05-09.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Times-Advocate newspaper;North County Times newspaper;North County, San Diego;Wild Animal Park;San Diego Zoo Safari Park;Photography;Black and white negatives;color negatives;dark room;color theory;color separation;digital camera;digital cameras;Rollieflex;Yashica;Nikon;Photoshop;Chromega;Rancho Bernardo, CA;Penasquitos, CA;Fallbrook, CA;San Diego, CA;Escondido, CA;Wildfire;Advertising;marketing OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Rios, Dan. Interview May 9th, 2017 SC003-03 00:39:31 SC003 Dan Rios papers CSUSM csusm Escondido (Calif.) ; Fallbrook (Calif.) ; Penasquitos (Calif.) ; Rancho Bernardo (San Diego, Calif.) ; Photojournalists ; Digital cameras ; Photographic chemicals ; Mexican Americans Times-Advocate newspaper ; North County Times newspaper ; North County, San Diego ; Wild Animal Park ; San Diego Zoo Safari Park ; Photography ; Black and white negatives ; color negatives ; dark room ; color theory ; color separation ; digital camera ; digital cameras ; Rollieflex ; Yashica ; Nikon ; Photoshop ; Chromega ; Rancho Bernardo, CA ; Penasquitos, CA ; Fallbrook, CA ; San Diego, CA ; Escondido, CA ; Wildfire ; Advertising ; marketing Daniel Flores Rios Alexa Clausen .wav RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-05-09.wav 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1c3ee8d55ddb0829d191f2f592e8217e.wav Other audio English Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. This interview recounts Rios's career working for the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times.&#13 ; &#13 ; As the Chief Photographer, Rios was instrumental in transitioning the North County Times from publishing images in black and white, to publishing in color. He recounts how photographers were initially required to buy and maintain their own equipment and how he was able to create a deal with the newspaper to compensate photographers fairly for their equipment. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:03.000 --> 00:01:11.000 Ok, good morning, we are now recording. Uh, this is Alexa Clausen with Dan Rios on our third session interviewing regarding his career, the Times Advocate and North County Times. It’s May 9th, 2017, and, uh, just by way of introduction, today we are going to focus a little bit more on the technical aspects that Dan had encountered and worked with. Based on what he said that during his interview as a young man as a photographer, he was hired because he had a specialty and knowledge of color. And he had brought his portfolio, and the bosses said “Yeah, we’re moving in this direction and you’re the guy. So, maybe from that starting point in the status of the color for this newspaper and where they were going and your involvement, if we could start there? 00:01:11.000 --> 00:04:32.000 Yeah, ok. Yeah, uh, I was hired, May of 1968 and that was one of the questions asked me was whether I knew how to do color and I had specialized in color my last year, semester, in college. And I shared my portfolio and the day after that I was hired. Uh, I started working the dark room as their first full-time photographer. They had had a part time photographer, and they had a reporter/photographer named Mary Jane Morgan who would take pictures, process the film, and print things on what was called a Photo-rite machine. It was basically a large Polaroid. The paper had the emulsion built in. You exposed the paper, feed it through this machine and it would come out in print. Umm, it was never fixed or finished. It was just air dried as an instant print, and it would be used for the reproduction. They had gone off-set, and they would, the uh, production department, would screen it- what was called 'screening' these pictures. And read them in the paper. Well, I started and uh, thought this was not the, the right way to go, so I installed regular processing chemicals and paper. But we did use the Photo-rite machine to proof everything, make contact prints instantly so the reporters and advertising could select the photos, and I would print them. Uh, during this time, uh, Keith Seals was the production manager and asked me if I knew how to do color separations. And I had, uh, played with this in college and I told him I would do research, and I’d get back to him, and I did. And I came up with this process of using color film with color filters, with the enlarger, and using panchromatic paper-it, which is, uh, registered all colors of the spectrum. As opposed to orthochromatic paper which only registers, uh, blue light. Red light doesn't register, hence the red light in the dark room. You can work in the dark room without damaging the papers cause, it would not be sensitive to red light. Well, panchromatic paper is sensitive to all colors of the spectrum. So, I would have to work in total darkness. And I would expose, and I played around with this, and I would expose these different papers. Four papers. The black, the cyan, the yellow and the magenta- in different sheets of paper and process them and come with different images using the enlarger and different filters. Colored filters. And then giving them four sets of prints. And, I had to use this home-made device to register. I would punch the papers and then I would align them with the punches on the, on the surface of the enlarger. Um, I would hand these papers over to black and white prints to the production department. They would screen them all, uh, because they were all different. 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:33.000 Yeah 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:42.000 Using the filters and come up with the separations. Uh, prior to that, we would send color transparencies to Monrovia. The newspaper in Monrovia, 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:43.000 Ok 00:04:43.000 --> 00:05:12.000 And they would separate there at 133 lines per inch. But they would take two-three weeks to come back. So, we had to plan there was no instant color in the paper. We had to plan for Christmas, Easter, 4th of July, stuff like that. Very sporadic. I remember Keith Seals telling me once that his dream was to be able produce, reproduce half column color mug shots every day in the paper. 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:13.000 Wow. 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:16.000 Eventually, we got to the point where we did that. 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:43.000 Well, we did this color separation system of mine, uh, for a year, year and a half. And maybe even longer. Uh, we got better equipment in the, uh, in the production department to scan my, uh, my separations. And I remember when the Wild Animal Park cause I was taking pictures there from groundbreaking to ribbon cutting. 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:44.000 Oh, sure! 00:05:44.000 --> 00:06:46.000 And, in fact I had shot the color, the cover in 4” x 5” color transparency. And we did send that out to be scanned and separated. But we had a collection of all these color negatives. And when grand opening of Wild Animal Park, I spent maybe 30 hours straight in the dark room separating each negative from Friday afternoon till Sunday about noon. Came home a couple times, had supper, took a shower and went back. At the end of my session there on Sunday afternoon I couldn't feel the floor. I was hallucinating. I had been in the dark so long, working so many hours. So, Monday when the crew came in, they started separating. And that was a special section that we put out for the Wild Animal Park. 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:50.000 Now, how, uh, was the color technology going forward elsewhere? 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:51.000 Yes, uh, yes. 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:58.000 And, and were you able to merge your color separation system with what was coming forward? 00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:18.000 No, no. Eventually the company did research and there was a man in Escondido who would do color separations for us, for color slides, color positives. And we quit my separation, thank God. Cause it was, it was a, ah. 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:19.000 It was too labor intensive. 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:20.000 Yeah, it really, really was. 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:22.000 Plus, you’re exposed to all that, the chemicals. 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:33.000 Yeah, the chemicals never bothered me, they were harmless, unless you drank them, I suppose. But eventually they bought a machine to do color separation in the Production Department. 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:36.000 When do you think this was? What year? 00:07:36.000 --> 00:08:10.000 Hmm, mid-70's, late 70's. Yeah. Um, but when I started there, um, I brought my own equipment in and I had 4” x 5” cameras, and 2” and a quarter cameras, and 35 mm cameras, and strobe lights, and light stands, and lighting equipment. Uh, when I got there, I think the paper had three Rolleiflex cameras that, uh, everybody used. Um, they were continuously being broken. Man handled and uh... 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:11.000 Yep, that’s the problem… 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:46.000 So, I went to Ron Kinney, and I said to him. Oh, to back up. Eloise Perkins was going on vacation, and she wanted her own camera. So, I did a little research and found out that there was a Japanese company Yashica that was making a twin lens reflex camera for about 70 dollars, 78 dollars I think, I got her one. Whereas the Rolleis were costing 500 to 700 dollars apiece. This is 1968, 70, 71. I don't know how much it would be in today's dollars. But it would be massively expensive. 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:50.000 Oh, it would be $10,000… 00:08:50.000 --> 00:09:03.000 Yeah, so she started using her own camera and bringing the film in. And my god, I couldn't believe the negatives were as sharp or sharper than the Rolleiflexes, from a 70-dollar camera. 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:06.000 But you continued to use your own equipment? 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:42.000 Yes, right. And I was using their Rolleiflex. Till I got one for myself and, uh, I bought some new strobe lights because the one they had was not adequate. But finding out how sharp, just, just a fine piece of camera the Yashica was, I went to Ron Kinney and I asked him: We are spending all this money repairing these three Rolleiflexs that we have, why don't we just buy a Rollei… a Yashica for each of the reporters as their own camera? 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:43.000 Right, the cost of… 00:09:43.000 --> 00:10:32.000 The repair bills went down to nothing because they would take care of their own cameras. And we supplied the film, the processing, the printing all they did was take... And some reporters refused to take pictures. If they, if they were forced to, I remember one columnist, overexposed the film so badly that you could see the sun through them. Because he did not want to take pictures, this was his way of rebelling. He says, “I'm not a photographer, I'm a writer, I'm a columnist.” And, then the company would make the reporters take their own pictures when they went on assignment if I wasn't available. But this one reporter, absolutely refused. And he came from San Diego. I think he started in the (19)20's or (19)30's- the San Diego Sun or the Union, the Tribune. 00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:36.000 AC: So he was of the school that you send a photographer with the person. 00:10:36.000 --> 00:11:09.000 Yeah, right, yeah. He was not going to mix the professions. The other reporters, they didn't care. Some reporters were pretty good. Bill Kane was pretty good, Eloise was good at taking pictures of monuments, and Kenny Russell was pretty good. There were some reporters that were pretty good photographers. Mary Jane Morgan was pretty good. But when I got them each their own camera the repair bills went down to nothing. And then we had the three Rollies, the two Rollies stayed in the shop for emergencies, back-ups. 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:16.000 Now, at any point with the color, now they would take black and white or would they take rolls of… how did that work? 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:19.000 No. No color, it was all black and white. All 2 and a quarter inch negatives. All black and white. 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:30.000 Ok, ok, ok. But were you and some of the other photographers the only ones who were allowed to, uh… was there ever color film introduced? 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:34.000 Oh yeah! We had color film when I first started. 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:38.000 Right, right. But when… who was allowed to go use color. If there was a special project. 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:39.000 Just me. 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:50.000 Because it was expensive. So, if they knew there was a special edition, then you’d take the color? 00:11:50.000 --> 00:12:47.000 Yes, right. Uh, eventually after we hired the dark room technician, Lowell Thorp and then we hired Jim Baird, super photographer. Personality, eh. Then the regime had changed, it was changing at the time. So, we started shooting, eh, we shot, Jim Baird shot strictly 35 mm. And, the film had improved considerably at that point and our chemicals, cause we had experimented with different chemicals to get the finer grain and the negatives sharper images. I eventually went to 35mm also. And, uh, but we also, we shot the color at the 2 and a quarter inch because it was better for reproduction. By then we had our own reproduction and color separation system in the production department. 00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:50.000 What years were you migrating to the 35 mm? 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:54.000 I think it was the mid… mid (19)70s. Mid (19)70s yeah 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:58.000 And then what about the percentage of color being added to the paper? 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:07.000 Oh, it was, it was 5% at the most. It was just special sections, special assignments, uh, special events in town… that we would plan. 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:12.000 And then when did all that start changing? 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:54.000 Probably the mid to late (19)70s and the beginning of the (19)80s. Because as I had said, Keith Seals dream was to run half column color mug shots. That, to him, seemed like a total waste of effort and time, but that was one of his dreams. And eventually we did that in the (19)80s, mid-(19)80s, type thing. And then we got pretty prolific. And then the, uh, the Ocean Blade, the Blade-Tribune started running color. And their color was better than ours. The reproduction bolder, brighter. And by then the San Diego Union started running color also. 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:57.000 So, they had better equipment, or they had better processing? 00:13:57.000 --> 00:14:38.000 Uh, better processing. So, Keith Seals would attend these conventions and come back with new techniques and new machinery. He would bring back a representative from different organizations for better processors and better color separation machines and stuff. So eventually we improved considerably. But then we started adding more photographers and eventually, uh, we started shooting primarily color negative film because then we could run that in black and white and color. We had an option. 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:40.000 When do you think that was? 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:48.000 I think the mid-(19)80s, late (19)80s. AC: [00:14:43}Ok, so you used the color film, but if you wanted it to be black and white… 00:14:48.000 --> 00:15:53.000 Yeah, the scanning could convert it to black and white. Uh, then we started shooting…we had been shooting color negative and then eventually we turned to color positive slides. And we did that for quite a number of years. Up until the 90's, I think. And then I believe that’s, and I’m not sure, but one… that’s about the mid-(19)90s, the late (19)90s we went to digital, and it was all color. It was a combination of a Nikon camera, an AP got some manufacturer [to] come up with these digital backs. And I think the memory cards were about 250 megabytes. And you couldn’t erase selectively, you had to erase the last image, then you had to reboot. Each photographer was given two cards. So, we had to be very careful what we took pictures of, we couldn't just machine gun because you were very limited. 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:58.000 Right! Your memory was limited, oh that must have been frustrating. 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:12.000 It really was! And we would have to come in, and this is what I was trying to learn. And I really didn't want to learn computers. I had no knowledge of computers. I didn’t want to learn computers. I just wanted to finish my career with film. 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:15.000 In those days, to my memory, it wasn't as easy as it is now. 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:17.000 Oh god no. 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:21.000 To do the downloading and all...This was not… Just… 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:28.000 For someone who knew computers, it was probably… I had to write out a list of steps, I think there were twenty steps 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:29.000 That’s the way it was. 00:16:29.000 --> 00:17:13.000 From, from putting the card in the reader, to finding, and I had no idea the folders, and files and clouds and… Oh my God, it was so frustrating. I would go in my shift, from 9:00 AM to 2:30 PM – 3 o clock or 7 to 2:30- 3 o clock. Depending on when I took lunch breaks… But I would go in at 5 o'clock in the morning just to play with the computer. And one of the young kids in the computer department gave me a piece of advice, he said, “whatever you do, you’ll never break the machine. Just shut it down, turn it off and restart it. You're back to square one.' It was such a relief in my mind because I was so nervous, touching buttons, pressing anything. 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:31.000 To my memory, when it was new to me that if you got stuck in loop, to back out was murder. So did they have a day, that all of a sudden, they’re like, “OK, all of your old cameras that took traditional film, you're done. Starting Monday, we're all going to digital?” 00:17:31.000 --> 00:18:35.000 Yes, and at that point, um, when there were six or seven photographers in the pool, we were told that we would have to buy our own equipment. And I went to the owners at that point, I think it was Tom Nolan, I think, and I said, ‘This is unjust,’ because the reporters had computers. And I said, “The computers, they’re not buying their computers, why do we have to buy equipment?” So, we rather, got a compromise, where they would rent our equipment, we would buy the equipment, and they would rent it. They would insure it, and they would repair it, but we would have to buy our own equipment. And it worked out pretty well. Because I would buy gray market, which is not officially imported by the franchise, and they were cheaper. But if the company is gonna pay for the repairs, what did I care if the company, err, manufacturers would not stand behind... You'd have to ship it back to Japan to... 00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:37.000 So, what were you using? Did you stay with Yash… 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:40.000 Nikon. 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:43.000 Because you had mentioned the Yashica camera. 00:18:43.000 --> 00:19:46.000 Yeah, and uh, eventually, uh, the reporters had the Yashicas. And, then we had the 2 and a quarter Rollies and they were pretty limited. I had a Coma 6 which was a single lens 2 and a quarter. It wasn't as good as the cameras I wanted, it wasn't as sharp as I needed. So, I went to the Production Manager and asked if I can come up with a proposal to buy, I think, four sets of Hasselblad cameras which are 2 and a quarter, single lens reflex. And, he said, 'yea, let me talk to the powers to be and write up a proposal.' And I did. I think I had four sets of them. The camera, a couple bodies, three lenses, filters, other little do-dads that went with it. So, he presented it to the Company, and they agreed. I think they probably spent $20,000. dollars. 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.000 And they were all for digital? 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:50.000 No, no no. These are still film. 00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:52.000 This is your Nikon with film? When you went to Nikon. 00:19:52.000 --> 00:20:25.000 These are the Hasselbald, yeah. Hasselblad. I wanted to go to Hasselbald to have the interchangeable lenses. The wide angle, the telephotos that type of thing. And we stayed with those and then when we went to 35mm. That's when we had to buy our own equipment. There was one photographer, John Nelson[RS1], I remember who must have had 5,000 dollars’ worth of equipment stolen from him, from his car. [He] came in, no equipment, no job. 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:28.000 Sounds like an inside job. Someone knew to follow him. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:48.000 Yes, somebody just robbed his car and stole everything. Someone just took it out of his car. So, we all loaned him spare pieces until he had the money to buy his own, type of thing. And really, he wasn't insured at the time. So, he struggled. Because of that equipment, no job. 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:54.000 Now when they moved to using digital cameras, they stayed with Nikon? 00:20:54.000 --> 00:21:45.000 Yes. It was a monster of a camera. It was a Nikon camera with Nikon lenses and stuff. But it had a huge back. It looked almost as big as a 4 x 5 camera. And that’s the one they had. I think it had 250 megabytes of memory in each card. We got two cards each. I believe each camera, each setup cost $20,000. And this is the mid-90's, late 90's. I remember one photographer was taking picture by a pool and he fell in the pool with the camera. David, uh, David… I forget his name. And it ruined the camera. The camera was worthless after that. 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:53.000 Well, ya. But they didn't send you for training. They didn’t say to you like “There’s a conference for photographers and journalists.”? 00:21:53.000 --> 00:22:10.000 No. Gave us the cameras. I don't even remember if a representative came in and told us how to run those. I think we learned by ourselves. I don't remember any training at all. At all. We were doing the digital and the 35 and learning. There’s a period of learning. 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:13.000 Migrating over. 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:35.000 Yea and I hated it. But I knew it was the future. So, I would come in two hours extra and play because we had the Photoshop. We had the earlier version of Photoshop, and I'd play around with that trying to learn the buttons. And, uh, I've got it in my computer now. But I never have learned the whole system. It's so massive. I just learned enough to... 00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:42.000 Well, every time I see one of those adult education classes they’ve got, you know, an Intro to Photoshop blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:44.000 And it’s just so massive… 00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:46.000 Yeah, yeah. It’s its own specialty. 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:50.000 Yeah. You can get a Ph.D. just learning what it has in it. 00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:56.000 So, there was really, seemingly, no concern to bring you along immediately into this. 00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:09.000 No, it was gradual. Gradual from 35mm color. At that point we were shooting color negatives again because they could be transformed to black and white and color. 00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:14.000 So, who was the last person standing who had their old traditional camera? 00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:50.000 Oh, I know, uh… oh god… what is his name? A photographer who used to cuss. Because there's no latitude in the digital, there was no latitude. There were no grays. There was darks, colors, or no color. And, God, he would get so frustrated. I would feel so sorry for him because he would try to manipulate the images the way we did in the dark room. There just was no latitude. No latitude in the digital. And it was just so frustrating. 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:53.000 Yeah. You are right. When you start to Photoshop that stuff, it is time consuming. 00:23:53.000 --> 00:25:10.000 Oh, God, yeah. You could spend hours. And if they were… I could go in the dark room and print 25-30 color 8x10's in an hour. And manipulate them, and burn them, and dodge them, and color correct them. And, we had this automatic color processing machine. At one point during the mid-80's they remodeled the dark room, and they put five color enlargers. Each of the photographers wanted their own enlarger, and it was a Leitz, a very expensive 35mm enlarger. I said no, I want a 4 x 5 enlarger. I want a Chromega, and a color analyzer, and digital timer. And I got it and put it in the back of the dark room and that was my enlarger. And nobody fooled with my enlarger. I had it zeroed in where I could print 25-30, 8x10 color prints in an hour. It was just bang, bang, bang. I would read them, analyze them, expose them, put them in the processor, and go do another one, go do another one, another one in an hour. 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:11.000 You were like a little copier machine. 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:22.000 Oh yeah! And by the end of the hour, I had 25-30 color prints. Beautifully printed, stabilized, dried, color corrected. 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:33.000 Now these are when they planned, they had… this is in the time they were planning… when the color… which weekend magazine or whatever would have color? 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:42.000 Yeah, right. Well, no, actually we were doing this in the dark room, we were doing color every day. We were running color every day. Everybody was shooting color. Everybody was printing color. 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:46.000 So, when do you think they did everyday color? By the 90's? 00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:50.000 Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:53.000 I was just thinking of when we came to Escondido. 00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:55.000 It was all color. 00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:59.000 You know, I’d be three. But it seems like there was a lot of… 00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:03.000 Right, yeah. I think if we ran black and white, it was unusual. Mostly the AP stuff. 00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:06.000 But it was new to a lot of people. 00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.000 Oh, yeah! 00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:11.000 It was kind of exciting that your newspaper had color. 00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:30.000 Oh yea. And it was offset. Then at that point they started using recycled paper. Which was gray dull, and the color didn't pop anymore. Prior to that we were using virgin stock. And it was pure white paper, and the color just shot out, it just shouted at you. 00:26:30.000 --> 00:27:01.000 Now when you were assigned just black and white or color. I was going to ask you, when you’d be assigned. You know how the paper had a Rancho Bernardo edition, and it had a…you know, for sections of town. And, then those would be divided up according to, uh, who… which photos and who got the photos and who went where. Was it all done out of Escondido for these various editions? 00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:03.000 Yes. 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:15.000 So, if someone was going to cover Penasquitos or Rancho Bernardo then that… the photographer would be assigned there by assignment or that was kind of their territory? 00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:46.000 Uh, there were reporters assigned to Rancho Bernardo, Penasquitos, the coast, Fallbrook, San Diego. And they would make their own assignments. They would hand it in to the uh… Because we had a drawer, where the reporter would just put in their assignments. And, then we would just select the assignments which photographer would go where and do what. And that was all shot in color, at that point, color negative. 00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:52.000 But it wasn’t necessarily on your part that you knew who, what assignment was going to come up, right? 00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:57.000 No, no, no. Every day we would go to this drawer and all the assignments were in there. 00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:03.000 Because for a few years, you got a lot more work from an Eloise [Perkins]. But as the paper went forward, and things changed and got bigger there was a whole different… 00:28:03.000 --> 00:29:01.000 Oh yeah, we had more and more photographers and we split the pot among the five or six photographers. Each photographer had two assignments, three assignments a day. Whereas when I started, I would be doing seven, eight, nine assignments a day and processing. At this point, we had purchased…because we were doing color positive, color negatives also, but mostly color negatives and we had a machine, had an automatic color processing machine. Prior to that Lowell Thorp had commissioned a manufacturer to give us a hot water tank and we would process all our film manually [by] color temperature by running hot water through this tank and keeping the temperature at, I think, it was 100 degrees and we would agitate manually each tank as it went through the process. 00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:07.000 Oh, I mean… today that would be considered like you’re using stone tablets. DR: [Shows his wrist with scars] 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:08.000 You got burned? 00:29:08.000 --> 00:30:27.000 No. Carpel tunnel. I developed carpel tunnel by doing that. Because we had these tanks that were holding reels of film in it. And, we would have to do this [twisting motion with wrist] for about a half hour processing - and then wash them and dry them and then proof them. And, uh, eventually when we got Lowell Thorp, he would do all this as the technician, dark room technician. And, uh, he would then print. But some of us would go in there and do our own printing. And this was before we got the new dark room, and Lowell had retired by that point. So, each photographer was in charge of doing his own color processing, film processing and his own color printing. Since I had been doing it forever, I was in charge of teaching the other photographers the color balance, and what it needed. Some prints were too yellow, too cyan, too magenta. I'd tell them what they needed to correct the color. It's what's called color balance. And so, I was basically… and a lot of photographers had knowledge, they could figure it out for themselves most of the time. 00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:31.000 And it probably seems archaic now. These old systems? 00:30:31.000 --> 00:32:27.000 Oh God yeah. You see photographers now with their digital cameras. They’ll take a picture and look at the image. Take a picture look at the image. Then you took hundreds and hundreds of shots. And through your experience and past knowledge you knew what was gonna work and what wasn't going to work. So, you went to the dark room. I remember once, and this was taboo. I bought a Nikon camera with an automatic exposure. You just put it on automatic and just shoot your life away. You didn't worry about f-stops, or shutter speeds or anything else. You just click, click, click. It's digital cameras now. And I remember there was a big fire north of Escondido. And, uh, I think there were three or four photographers covering it. And we all came back, and we’re all dirty, and smoky, and smelly. I had even gotten a brush of the fire retardant, which is gooey and thick, orange all over. And this other fellow, Ernie Cowens, taking pictures for television and I saw the plane coming dropping a load and Ernie was facing away from it. And I said, “hey Ernie a load of fire retardant is coming in, you had better hide your camera.” He turned around to see what I had said, and it just covered his camera. His film camera, his movie camera. He had to rush down to San Diego to get it cleaned and fixed. It just landed—and it was heavy, heavy stuff. Anyway, we all came back, and we processed the film, and we were shooting color transparencies then. And I had shot maybe 10 rolls, 12 rolls of film. And each of my frames, the exposure was right-on. Dead-on exposure with the automatic. And I selected some frames that I liked and left it. 00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:31.000 Well, that was a new era, it marked a new era. 00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:38.000 Yeah, yeah, the automatic. But that was taboo. See? You weren't supposed to do that, you were supposed to be a professional. You were supposed to take a reading. 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.000 As the fire retardant is coming at you! 00:32:40.000 --> 00:34:35.000 Yeah, yeah exactly. Take a reading and adjust your camera and shoot. That was the professional way to do it. Me, I said, “I want to try this automatic thing.” And the camera was so dead on. The ten rolls of film, I bet the exposure was incorrect maybe in 5 or 10, 15 exposures. And I selected the prints that I wanted and by this point my shift was over. It was 5, 6 o clock and my shift had ended at 2:30. So I came home, took a shower and cleaned clothes and had dinner. The next morning the paper ran, and a bunch of my photographs were on it. A big spread, a color spread. But my boss, Will Corbin asked me into his office, he had all my slides on his desk. 'What did you do that the 'other ones didn't. He had all my strips of transparencies on his desk. He said 'Why are your exposures correct, and the other ones have blotching, over exposed, under exposed, missing…' And I told him. I said, “That shot was automatic, instead of manual.” He said, 'I have to talk to the other photographers, they are wasting a lot of film.' I don't know whether he did or not or if they took his advice or not but, uh. And I shot automatic from there on. I would just… I mean, why… I mean I would set the f-stop, or I would set the shutter speed and then the camera would compensate by... If I needed a huge depth of field, I would knock it down to F - 22 to F-16, if I wanted it to stop motion, I would set it at 4,000 per second. And the let the diaphragm take over. So, you didn't lose total control of the camera. And if I would shoot manual, I would shoot manual. 00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:39.000 And good god, you know, you’re at a wildfire in a Santa Ana. 00:34:39.000 --> 00:35:00.000 Right. You're not fiddling around with f-stops and shutter speed. But I see the photographers now, the professionals. They’ll take a picture and look at the image on the back of the camera. And I just kind of…. They have no idea what photography is. 00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:17.000 Now we are at 35 minutes and that's generally where my transcribing load stops. But did you have anything else on the color? Now we can always add this in on the other tapes. 00:35:17.000 --> 00:38:21.000 No, the other thing, because I retired in 2000, at one point I kind of got burned out. I had been taking picture for, sheesh… 40 years. And my curiosity run out. My mojo had run out and I think my photography showed it. I was kind of burned out. And I think it was one of the bosses, Rich Peterson came to me and says, “You know, I’ve got…” Rich Peterson was approached by the advertising department. Because we were never allowed to take pictures for advertising. If editorial took pictures, advertising could never use them. If we took pictures of mug shots of politicians, and the politician liked the photo, they couldn't be used in their advertising. So, advertising apparently went to Rich Peterson and says, 'We want to hire one of your photographers to work for the advertising department, primarily - solely. And the photographs belong to us. So Rich Peterson had asked me if I would be interested in that. And at that time, they were changing the regime there and they were trying to mess with my schedule. My schedule had always been 7 to 2 -3 o'clock in the afternoon. I'm an early person. I wake up early, I work early, I function early. Later in the day, I'm wiped out. So, he asked me if I was interested in taking over the position as advertising photographer. He said, 'go talk to the advertising manager', and I did. I found out what the requirements were. They had reps and they would talk to the advertisers, and they would request photography. They would bring me…assign it to me. I worked my own hours. Whatever I wanted. I would call them and set my time. It was a cushy job. And it was a Monday through Friday, sometime Saturdays. I set my own hours. It wasn't what I had started out to do, but I finished my last two or three years doing that. And when I got sick in July of 2000, when I quit. That's what I was doing. And my last day at work, because I still had my equipment there in the dark room/studio/photo office. I went in 5:00 o'clock in the morning, picked up all my equipment and everything I owned, put it in a big box and hauled it out. I wrote a message to all the photographers of the North County Times, 'thank you for your help and friendship, good-bye, Dan Rios.' And I hung it on the door. Never went back to the building. Ever, to this day. 00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:22.000 They didn't throw a party? 00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:23.000 They wanted to. 00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:24.000 You wouldn't let them. 00:38:24.000 --> 00:39:28.000 No. At that point there were so many people that I didn't know. So many new people in the management. So many people I had been friendly with, and a lot of the people that I had grown with over the years, had retired and left. So, there really was nobody. So, the personnel director, Peggy Chapman, called me and said, 'we are going to give you a party’ I said, 'no I don't want a party.' I felt hypocritical. She said, 'what can we do for you?' I said, 'you can buy me a lap top computer.' Because at that point I had gotten into computers. My stepson had bought me one, and we had bought another one and I thought a laptop might be nice. So, they send me $300 to buy me a laptop computer. This was the 2000s, but then computers then, laptops were 8-900 dollars. But it helped. I bought some other stuff, I didn't buy the laptop. I didn’t buy they laptop till way later. 00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:29.000 Shall we stop here? 00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:31.000 Yeah, sure. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-05-09.xml RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-05-09.xml https://archivessearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rios, Dan. Interview May 9th, 2017 Description An account of the resource Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. As the Chief Photographer, Rios was instrumental in transitioning the North County Times from publishing images in black and white, to publishing in color. This interview recounts Rios's career working for the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times. Rios also recounts how photographers were initially required to buy and maintain their own equipment and how he was able to create a deal with the newspaper to compensate photographers fairly for their equipment. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC003-03 Subject The topic of the resource Digital cameras Escondido Times-Advocate (Escondido, Calif.) Mexican Americans Photographic chemicals Photojournalists Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-09 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dan Rios Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Alexa Clausen Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Fallbrook (Calif.) Rancho Penasquitos (Calif.) Rancho Bernardo (San Diego, Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource in copyright Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived SC003: The Dan Rios papers Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Community history Latine experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5e54912f2da95810e3bef5c341d6234e.pdf f19c0b3193310ab2e1ac5e49d6563335 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rios, Dan. Interview transcript, May 9th, 2017. Description An account of the resource Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. As the Chief Photographer, Rios was instrumental in transitioning the North County Times from publishing images in black and white, to publishing in color. This interview recounts Rios's career working for the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times. Rios also recounts how photographers were initially required to buy and maintain their own equipment and how he was able to create a deal with the newspaper to compensate photographers fairly for their equipment. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dan Rios Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Alexa Clausen Robert Sheehan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-09 Subject The topic of the resource Digital cameras Escondido Times-Advocate (Escondido, Calif.) Mexican Americans Photographic chemicals Photojournalists Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Fallbrook (Calif.) Rancho Penasquitos (Calif.) Rancho Bernardo (San Diego, Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived SC003: The Dan Rios papers Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource in copyright Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC003-03 Community history Latine experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Alexa Clausen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Daniel Flores Rios OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-03-30.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Hanford, CA;Central Valley, CA;farm workers;high school drop out to work as landscape;Ocean Beach, CA;La Jolla, CA;Lucy Berk, librarian Escondido Times-Advocate newspaper;Mexican immigrant parents;Jennie Rios labored although an amputee;Mexican Revolution about 1915-16;Mesa Community College;Mid-way Adult Education;Kodalith film;San Diego City College photography degree;William (Bill) Dendle, photography department;Bob Boyd, photography instructor, San Diego City college;Reed, Miller and Murphy Advertising;Times-Advocate newspaper. OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Rios, Dan. Interview March 30th, 2017 SC003-01 00:29:54 SC003 Dan Rios papers CSUSM csusm Agricultural laborers -- California ; Hanford (Calif.) ; Ocean Beach (San Diego, Calif.) ; La Jolla (San Diego, Calif.) ; Escondido (Calif.) ; Mesa Community College (San Diego, Calif.) ; Mexican Americans ; Photojournalists Hanford, CA ; Central Valley, CA ; farm workers ; high school drop out to work as landscape ; Ocean Beach, CA ; La Jolla, CA ; Lucy Berk, librarian Escondido Times-Advocate newspaper ; Mexican immigrant parents ; Jennie Rios labored although an amputee ; Mexican Revolution about 1915-16 ; Mesa Community College ; Mid-way Adult Education ; Kodalith film ; San Diego City College photography degree ; William (Bill) Dendle, photography department ; Bob Boyd, photography instructor, San Diego City college ; Reed, Miller and Murphy Advertising ; Times-Advocate newspaper. Daniel Flores Rios Alexa Clausen .wav RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-03-30_access.wav 1:|14(13)|26(4)|61(14)|105(9)|117(5)|146(4)|176(12)|222(10)|254(7)|305(16)|329(11)|361(13)|394(2)|421(4)|438(8)|465(8)|490(5)|512(7)|528(8)|548(14)|593(2)|612(6)|633(18)|659(11)|694(9)|707(5)|754(16)|766(4)|799(7)|828(6) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6530a2ec4e46f4d8911ae22577aa5093.wav Other audio English Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. This interview recounts Rios's childhood and early adulthood, and his personal and educational journey towards becoming a news photographer.&#13 ; &#13 ; As a child and teen laborer Rios, due to extreme heat, convinced his field worker family to leave the Central Valley and join his aunts in San Diego. They moved in 1953. As a 14 year old teen high school drop-out, Rios started his own gardening and landscaping business in La Jolla, California. A client convinced Rios to attend night school to get his high school degree. Rios then pursued a civil engineering degree at community college, eventually dropping the pursuit of engineering when he finds his passion for photography. Rios acquired a degree in commercial and portrait photography at San Diego Community college where he met his mentors. After graduation he sought work as a photographer and landed an interview in Escondido for the regional newspaper, the Escondido Times-Advocate. Dan Rios: My name is Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939. Alexa Clausen: We have put together some questions. Tell us a little about your childhood, you had told us about leaving the Fresno area. DR: I was born in the Central Valley. My family were all field workers. They picked all sorts of fruits, cotton, stuff like that. The weather was miserable . The winters were freezing cold, the summers were blistering hot, and I never liked the place. So I convinced my mother and father we should move out of there. And in 1953, we moved to San Diego. Settled in Ocean Beach for a little while. Eventually we bought property in Mission Valley, had a house built. Worked with a company in La Jolla doing landscaping, gardening at the age of 14. I quit school in the middle of 8th grade. Never went back there to finish junior high or never even went to high school. I worked in La Jolla for two years for a gardening and landscaping company. AC: Now when you said they came to San Diego, you had other family here? DR: Yes, I had two aunts that lived here. That brought us here. Also had a sister who moved here prior to our moving here. We rented place on the beach, Ocean Beach right on the beach. It's called The Ocean Village, we had a little cabin there. At that point it was my father, my mother, my sister, two brothers and myself. I believe a sister too. The other two sisters had already married and moved out. AC: What did they come to do? What did mom and dad come to do? DR: (laughs) Well they came because I bugged the-- AC: Said get me out of this-- (unintelligible, Clausen and Rios talking over each other) DR: I just hated Hanford. AC: Oh I’m sorry-- DR: I dreaded--I mean we were poor, we weren't dissident, we owned our home , our own car. But it was not a good life, it was a miserable life. And I told my mother once, I said, “I know we are going to be poor the rest of our lives, why do we have to be poor and miserable too.” (laughs) I just hounded her and convinced her that we had to move out of town. And we did in 1953. AC: Right, but they knew there would be work in San Diego? DR: Yes, my brother-in-law had gotten a job with landscaping company in La Jolla and he was pretty sure that both my father and I-- AC: There was room to have you join them. DR: Yes. Right. Yes. AC: Now you know, you’re were still very young here when you’re doing the landscaping. DR: Yes, I was fourteen years old. AC: That’s sure a long cry from getting to be a, you know, quite an well-established photographer, and Lucy (Berk, a local historian who met Dan when she worked as the librarian for Times Advocate) told me also an artist, a photographer as an artist-- DR: Yes. AC: So, let's fast forward your career a little bit here. So here you are, a kid, landscaping and thinking to yourself, well what? I want to buy a camera? What do I have to do? DR: (laughs). Oh, no, no, no. I took to gardening and landscaping like a termite to wood. I loved it. I read a lot of books on it. I was very good, I was excellent at it. I had a natural sense of design, I learned thousands of plant names and fertilizers and insecticides. At the age of 16—at the age of 14, I was working three days a week at the La Jolla Art Center. Three days a week. Three full days a week. And I figured after two years of doing that, that I could take over the contract and work only three days a week making as much money as I was working five days a week. So I talked to Dr. Malone who was the director, and asked him if I could take over the job at 16 years old. And he did not laugh me away as most people would have done. He talked to the Board and they agreed. So I worked three 8-hour days, and then the other two days of the week I worked other jobs. Eventually, I worked six days a week, and I was getting a lot of contracts, a lot of work at 16, 17 years old. So then I called my father to come and help me and my business and got him away from the landscaping company. We did that for about 15 years. AC: Did you have a business name? DR: Dan Rios Complete Garden Service and Landscaping. Had no license, no insurance. (laughs) AC: But you know that was not a big deal then. DR: No it wasn’t. AC: It was simply not a big deal. Most people didn't care, and-- DR: No. Nobody questioned me. I was never stopped by the city, by the police, or anybody. But I was 16 years old, did not have a driver's license. AC: Now that was bad, that was a problem. (laughs) DR: So I went to buy a '55 Chevrolet pickup, I had the financing and everything, but I had no driver's license. So the salesman ordered me to go to National City (California), get a driver's license. AC: Down to the DMV. DR: Yes and got it. I made really, really good money. I remember. between my father and I, say in 1957 - 58 (we were) making $20,000 a year. And I researched and I found out at the time high school teachers were making $5000 a year. AC: Oh yeah you could probably buy a little home for eighteen or seventeen thousand at the time. DR: We bought a piece of land in Mission Valley for $4000. Paid that off and then we had a house built. It was a 2,000 square foot house for $10,000. The payments were $72 a month. I told my mother, “You know in ten years that’s going to be nothing. That’s going to be a drop in the bucket.” AC: And it was true. DR: Yes. Oh yeah. She died living there. She died in 1980. We built the house in '58. AC: So did she work? Did she end up-- DR: No, no, she was--not any more. She did in Hanford. She had an amputated leg and even with that she went out in the fields and pick grapes and picked cotton. And did all kinds of field work. AC: Give me your mother's name. DR: Jennie. Jennie Rios. AC: And father's name? DR: Theodore. AC: Theodore. OK. And were they from that Northern California area? DR: No, no, no. They immigrated separately to the United States during the Mexican Revolution about 1915-16. AC: I’ll be darned. DR: I think my mother was six years old. I think my father was nine years old. AC: Yeah. They came as children. DR: They crossed at El Paso. And they worked themselves--my father worked as a water-boy on the railroad tracks coming to California. My mother's father worked for a construction company building a pipeline. I haven't really researched that. She said the pipe was as big as a diameter that a man sitting on a horse could ride into the pipe. It was that huge. Eventually, the contract ended in Hemet (California). But they came through the San Jacinto Mountains. She remembered the Indians there singing and chanting. AC: There’s a number of Reservations or one or two big ones there. DR: Yes, Saboba. AC: So well we are making our way to your camera, right? So we’ve got you owning your own company, you have your father involved in your business, and you’ve got a house. DR: And a brand-new car. AC: And you are working for the La Jolla Art-- DR: Center. AC: As one of your clients. DR: Then I expanded and I had clients. I was working seven days a week, 12 hours a day. No vacations, no holidays. But it was a lot of fun, there was a lot of money coming in. And for an uneducated kid-- AC: That becomes important. DR: Yes. AC: You could finally enjoy things-- DR: In fact I'll tell you how uneducated I was: I never understood English, I never understood Math. History and other stuff like that, I could understand. When I would do a contract—an estimate, I would do all round numbers, all whole numbers. AC: Okay. DR: At one point I could not subtract 1.99 from 2.00. I had no idea (Clausen and Rios talking over each other) how to move the figures-- AC: Well, you know you were a kid that needed to get money and wanted to leave poverty. DR: Yeah, it was field work and I hated the field work. It was miserable. So even when I had my little business going, I decided--I knew a year in advance what I would be doing. I had so many contracts lined up that it became boring. The work just became boring. So I decided in 1962 to go back to night school and get my high school education. Which I did. I did in three years. I went five nights a week plus Saturdays plus TV shows--TV classes. I think I needed 32 credits to graduate, and I think I graduated with 48 credits. The counselor urged me to be class president, I did not have time for that. So then she bothered me so much, eventually I acquiesced to be Salutatorian for the high school class. AC: Oh nice. DR: When I started, I was in the 30-35% percentile. When I graduated, I was 98 percentile. It just came so easy to me. AC: And boy, you sure did the right thing to get more education. DR: More? Some education. I never had it-- AC: Well, you missed out on your childhood in a way. DR: I never had a childhood. I never had a teenage life. When we were at home working, picking, we would never start school in September. It was November. Middle of November we started. And then holidays--then Thanksgiving came, you were off two weeks, then two or three weeks, Christmas came. And we’d (not) come back until the middle of January. And then we would leave school in May. I never started school and I never ended school. AC: I had gone to the Latino Film Festival—I go every year with my friend. I can’t sit through too many movies but we saw one (film) that was a--that followed some children and their education, still today, and how the parents do yank them out of school and they’ll go to El Centro or wherever and the kids are constantly in flux. They still—happens to them, they—and then, the teachers have to try and test them and place them and it still goes on. DR: Well that was me, that was our family. We had to survive, we had to put food on the table, clothes on our backs. AC: Yeah, yeah. DR: We owned our own home, we owned our own car. There was no bills there. AC: Well that was, that was more than a lot. DR: That’s a whole lot of story, because this house we’re living in now is part of my mother's wedding present. I can go into that if you want to later on. But I never wanted—and when I had my own little business, big family gatherings at the house, we had a nice house in San Diego. A lot of family gatherings and stuff like that. But I was bored with my job 'cause I would get up 5 o’clock in the morning. Six o’clock I was out the door and I wouldn’t get back until five or six o’clock. When I started Adult School, high school, I would get home at 5 o’clock, 5:30, take a shower, have a little snack, and go to school between 6 and 9. And then get home and study until 1-2 o’clock in the morning. I would do that for-- AC: Well see you had the desire, the drive-- DR: Yeah. Five, seven days. And then eventually I stopped working Saturday, used to go to Saturday school. So I graduated and then went to college and I was going to study Civil Engineering. Because it seemed to suit me. I was good in Math, I was good in Science, I was good in Chemistry. AC: Did you start at community college? DR: Yeah. Mesa College. AC: Good school. DR: Yeah. I was there a year and a half, and I took—I was taking pretty heavy classes. I went to take an easy class, a Health Ed. class. Taught by a short, stout, female teacher. No term paper, no mid-term, no quizzes, attendance is good, class participation. The only absolute requirement, concrete--you had to have a hobby at the age of 65 and over. She said, “None of my students going out working 30-40 years, retiring and become the wife or your spouse's pain in the ass,” running the house because she has been for 30-40 years. Chauffer, bookkeeper, cook, shopper, maintenance, raising the kids. She said, “My students will not be a burden to their spouses." AC: (laughs) That is so great. DR: (laughs) You will need a hobby. And I had to prove it. And it does not include rock climbing because at 60-70 years old you’re not going to be doing any rock climbing. So in San Diego, at this here store on University where I went to, they had their camera counter right there where you walked in the front door. I’d often stopped and marveled at all these devices. I had heard about 35-millimeter (cameras), had no idea what it was. I had seen this camera with all these numbers on it. And different colored numbers. I often wondered what it all meant. Because growing up in Hanford we had no money for either film or camera or anything else, there were just no--no extras. So I decided to take a adult (continuing education) class at Mid-way Adult High School in photography. I took it for one semester. Now in college I was carrying a 3.54 average. I got involved in photography, it just overwhelmed me. I could not get enough of it. I just started buying second-hand equipment. AC: I don't know if that Adult School is still there. It was there for years. DR: Probably not. At the time I was going out with a woman who I later married. She was taking an art class and I was taking photography on Wednesdays. I got so involved with photography I started buying used equipment, new equipment when I could afford it. I would buy 100-foot rolls of film and shoot that film in one week. I was just drawn into it. AC: Wow. DR: I was just mesmerized. I couldn't get enough of it, it was like an addict. And so I built a dark room in my mother's garage. At that point I had gotten married. Built the dark room in my mother's garage, I would go in at 4-5 o’clock in the morning, process film. Start printing and proofing and looking at my clock, I would have to be at school at 9 o'clock for a class, 10 o’clock at class-- AC: I tell young people and my son, go ahead and plan and take your classes but you don’t know what’s going to come your way. Like don’t get so, you know worry, worry, where’s the job, where’s my job going to be. I said “Stop!” It may come to you and I can’t wait to tell him about--’cause I see him tomorrow, but don’t wear yourself down with worry, you don’t know the twist and turns in your life. Look at that! DR: Well, my mother had a saying that most students go to college to study to be a potato and they come out a yam. (both laugh) So my grades plummeted. I would not go to school. I would try to bone up for a test. I would not show up for class. That last semester just was a disaster. Ended up getting I think a D average. 2.0 or 1.5, 2.0 average. Then I switched college, I decided, I told my wife "I think I want to do--” One of the people, while I switched colleges to study commercial photography, and I had the fortunate-- AC: You think? DR: I had the pleasure of two teachers, and I talk about it all the time. Civil Engineering is what I really wanted to do but this photography just, as I said, I was just addicted to it. So I enrolled in this college and had Mr. Bill Dendle’s class in photography at City College and Jack Stevens who also taught the upper grades. And I was so fortunate to have Mr. Dendle as a teacher. And he would just--like an addict, just feeding me my poison with the knowledge. Oh god, he was fantastic. My first semester there, I won the Sweepstakes Award and about 30% of the ribbons because we had a photo contest among the students. And the first day of class, about 35-40 people in the class, Mr. Dendle said, “I don't care ; sit on the floor, sit wherever you want. By the end of this week there's gonna be half of you and by the of the month just going to be half of (that). At the year there will be maybe five or seven of you left.” And there were only ten of us left that started. AC: Yeah. Yeah. So he knew you had to have the passion to survive. DR: He was, he was--He had a shelf, it must have been twenty feet long by eight feet high full of photo books. And I would go ask him a question, if I had a problem or had a question, he said, “You know that it is a very good question. It's in the books here, why don't you find out. Look for it and find out the answers.” AC: Interesting. DR: And he would do that to me a lot. AC: So he knew that if you would find it for yourself, it would have more value. DR: Oh yeah. AC: And to remembering and keeping-- DR: And, one day about noon, I’d finished my work in the darkroom and he came out and says, “Are you busy right now?” I said no. At this point I was twenty-nine, no twenty-six. I always felt old in class. Kids were 17-18-19 years old. AC: Yeah. Returning students feel-- DR: I'm twenty-three, twenty-four, I’m feeling ancient. So I never mingled with students, fellow students. So he came out to lunch and says, “What are you doing?” I say, “I just finished my dark room work.” He says, “Grab a camera and load it Kodalith film and go take a picture of the quad.” I’d never heard of Kodalith film, it's a graphics arts film. Normal speed of film is 100, 400. This was 6 and I had no idea what it was. So I went and got a 4 x 5 camera, loaded it. Thought I was going to take it--I got a light meter, took it to the quad and took a light reading. It was like a five-second exposure, wide-open on the camera. So I had to go back to get a tripod, went and took the picture, five-second exposures. Back in and processed the film. And I showed it to him and says “What do you want me to do with this?” He said, “Nothing, throw it away.” I said “Well what was that all about?” He said, “Some day when you're a professional, you will be called upon to do different assignments. You better be prepared for anything that comes up.” AC: Wow. DR: We had what's called the photographers bible. It was a book, maybe 5 x 7, by maybe three inches thick with every film, every chemical, every processing imaginable. And that became my bible. I would study that thing left and right. Another thing, one year for Christmas vacation he asked me, “What are you doing for vacation?” Said not a whole lot. He says, “I want you--look up this doctor at a biology lab during Christmas vacation. Want you to shoot color slide, color negative, black and white and infrared film. Go to the doctor with it and ask him what he wants. So Christmas vacation I went, found him and he was doing an autopsy on a cadaver with about four or five students. And I had a cold that day. And they are tearing up this body apart-- AC: Oh dear god. DR: They’re just carving into him and I am taking pictures all over. And I asked the doctor, “What do you want pictures of?” He said “Dendle said you would just come over, I’ve got no use for you.” (laughs) So I shot all those four types of film. So anyway I learned the man had apparently been an alcoholic. They took out his kidneys and his liver, (unclear) cirrhosis. Little five-foot girl riding her fingers along the tendon from her toes up to his hip and I couldn’t smell anything I had a cold that day. But I found out that your hair grows after you’re dead, because the cadaver's bald and it had quarter-inch fuzz on him. And he mentioned that to the students. Which I didn’t notice. His hair keeps on growing. AC: And you had that-- DR: And the fingernails-- AC: On the photo. Lucky you! DR: Yeah right. So after Christmas break I took it all to Dendle, all the proof sheets and all the negatives and everything. “Here's the—what do you want me to do with them?” He said, “Throw them away, I don't want ‘em! I don’t even want to see them.” But that was another lesson in that you’re going to be called upon to do—you don't know what you will be called upon to do. And his advice to me was curiosity. Never lose your curiosity. It will take you through-- AC: You think about journalism and for newspapers, yeah I mean you could-- DR: But I didn't study for newspapers. AC: No, no, I know-- DR: I studied for commercial photography. AC: But he had instincts that you—he didn’t know where you ended up. AC: So he wanted to give you like the worst-case scenario. DR: Right. yeah he wanted to prepare me for whatever came. So he came to me second semester, I think. He said, “How would you like a job working in a photo studio? They don't pay much, a dollar and half an hour. But you work any hours you want. Yopu work weekends, nights, whatever. You get the use of all the cameras, all their equipment, all their paper, everything.” Which was at the time photography was the second most expensive class in college. The first expensive class was welding. So I took that job for a photographer named Bob Boyd, who was another teacher, another instructor. The man was a phenomenal photographer. He worked for Reed, Miller and Murphy Advertising Agency. So I did all his processing, all his pictures. I sent out the color stuff to the labs, but everything else I did. I printed all my stuff, I shot all my assignments in the studio. And like I said, I had just got married. Second--the third semester, Mr. Dendle came up to me and says “How would you like a job on a cruise ship?“ I said, “What are you talking about?” He says, “The Director of the Seven Seas College—Seven Seas University? College. They are touring East China, Japan, Vietnam, going down to Australia and up to North Africa for nine months. No pay. Room and Board, but you can take any class you want. Any you're gonna be the ship's photographer. You can take pictures of whatever anyone wants, of anything. You can take classes of anything you want.” AC: Now at this time you had closed down your landscaping (business) or were you still-- DR: No. AC: Did you turn it over to your dad? DR: I had. I gave up most of the contracts. I saved some for my dad to work three--four days a week, three days a week at the most. He was getting ready to retire on Social Security. AC: But for your own income? DR: I worked weekends and in the photo lab. AC: So you are still doing both. DR: Yes. So I had just gotten married and I didn't think it was good to leave my new wife. AC: For nine months. DR: And my stepson. He was five years old. For nine months and with no income. No money coming in. So I didn't do that. But my last year, Bob Boyd who used to do filming, used to do commercials in San Diego, plus professional photography, commercial, helped him out a lot--asked me to go up to Hayward, California with him for a week. Now this is toward the end of the semester. To do a job up there, film developer for a week. So I talked to Mr. Dendle, and he said, “Yeah go ahead, no problem. Your year is completed, get out of here.” So I did. And I completed my classes there and I started looking for work. I had my brochure. I had my—what they call a—my book. They had a name for it. With some of my best photography. AC: Like a portfolio? DR: A brag. Called it a brag book. AC: Oh okay. DR: And I had it, put photos back-to-back in a binder – drill holes and put a All of my best photography was in there. My good photos were back to back in a binder—drill holes and put a spiral backing on it. I went all over town looking for work. Commercial studios, portrait studios, advertising agencies, all over town. And they all said the same thing. Your stuff is really, really good, but you don't have any experience. Go out and get a job for a year and come back. So it was at this time that one of the salesman for a commercial photography sales came in. I asked him if he knew of anyone who wanted a photographer, I says I’m looking for a job. He said, “As a matter of fact, I came from Escondido and they are looking for a photographer in the Escondido newspaper.” AC: Perfect. DR: They got a newspaper in Escondido? (laughs) I had no idea, 'cause I was just San Diego. Had the San Diego Union, Evening Tribune. So on Sunday, we drove up here and got a newspaper from the stand. And they (San Diego Union) had gone letter press and they (Escondido Times-Advocate) were still using virgin paper. No recycled stuff. And It was bright white. And the type was just--and the printing was just amazing. I couldn’t believe it. And the photography! The pictures looked like they were actual photographs. AC: You could cut them out and-- DR: And I was used to the letter press in San Diego and I couldn’t believe they had the offset press over here. Said, “oh my god!” And the town was little, I think the town (Escondido) was maybe only twenty-thousand at the time, 20-25,000. AC: You know this is a great place to stop, are we good to stop? DR: Oh yeah, sure. Sure, yeah. AC: Wonderful. I’m gonna hit stop. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-03-30.xml RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-03-30.xml https://archivessearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rios, Dan. Interview March 30th, 2017. Description An account of the resource Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. This interview recounts Rios's childhood and early adulthood, and his personal and educational journey towards becoming a news photographer. As a child and teen laborer Rios, due to extreme heat, convinced his field worker family to leave the Central Valley and join his aunts in San Diego. They moved in 1953. As a 14 year old teen high school drop-out, Rios started his own gardening and landscaping business in La Jolla, California. A client convinced Rios to attend night school to get his high school degree. Rios then pursued a civil engineering degree at community college, eventually dropping the pursuit of engineering when he finds his passion for photography. Rios acquired a degree in commercial and portrait photography at San Diego Community college where he met his mentors. After graduation he sought work as a photographer and landed an interview in Escondido for the regional newspaper, the Escondido Times-Advocate. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC003-01 Subject The topic of the resource Agricultural laborers -- California Mesa Community College (San Diego, Calif.) Mexican Americans Photojournalists Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-30 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Daniel Flores Rios Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Alexa Clausen Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Hanford (Calif.) La Jolla (San Diego, Calif.) Ocean Beach (San Diego, Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Community history Latine experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/07b8770dd2114cfaa740faf8656f5574.pdf f26b5b996684fd469ca62ab036f3d5e9 PDF Text Text Dan Rios Interview I -- March 30th, 2017 Escondido California Chief photographer, Times Advocate (1968 - 1994); North County Times (19952001) Interviewer: Alexa Clausen Dan Rios: My name is Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939. Alexa Clausen: We have put together some questions. Tell us a little about your childhood, you had told us about leaving the Fresno area. DR: I was born in the Central Valley. My family were all field workers. They picked all sorts of fruits, cotton, stuff like that. The weather was miserable. The winters were freezing cold, the summers were blistering hot, and I never liked the place. So I convinced my mother and father we should move out of there. And in 1953, we moved to San Diego. Settled in Ocean Beach for a little while. Eventually we bought property in Mission Valley, had a house built. Worked with a company in La Jolla doing landscaping, gardening at the age of 14. I quit school in the middle of 8th grade. Never went back there to finish junior high or never even went to high school. I worked in La Jolla for two years for a gardening and landscaping company. AC: Now when said you—said they came to San Diego, you had other family here? DR: Yes, I had two aunts that lived here. That brought us here. Also had a sister who moved here prior to our moving here. We rented place on the beach, Ocean Beach right on the beach. It's called The Ocean Village, we had a little cabin there. At that point it was my father, my mother, my sister, two brothers and myself. I believe a sister too. The other two sisters had already married and moved out. AC: What did they come to do? What did mom and dad come to do? DR: (laughs) Well they came because I bugged the-AC: Said get me out of this-- (unintelligible, Clausen and Rios talking over each other) DR: I just hated Hanford. AC: Oh I’m sorry-DR: I dreaded--I mean we were poor, we weren't dissident, we owned a car. But it was not a good life, it was a miserable life. And I told my mother once, I said, “I know we are going to be poor the rest of our lives, why do we have to be poor Transcribed by Alexa Clausen 1 �and miserable too.” (laughs) I just hounded her and convinced her that we had to move out of town. And we did in 1953. AC: Right, but they knew there would be work in San Diego? DR: Yes, my brother-in-law had gotten a job with landscaping company in La Jolla and he was pretty sure that both my father and I-AC: There was room to have you join them. DR: Yes. RIght. Yes. AC: Now you know, you’re were still very young here when you’re doing the landscaping. DR: Yes, I was fourteen years old. AC: That’s sure a long cry from getting to be a, you know, quite an wellestablished photographer, and Lucy (Berk, a local historian who met Dan when she worked as the librarian for Times Advocate) told me also an artist, a photographer as an artist-DR: Yes. AC: So, let's fast forward your career a little here. So here you are, a kid, landscaping and thinking to yourself, well what? I want to buy a camera? What do I have to do? DR: (laughs). Oh, no, no, no. I took to gardening and landscaping like a termite to wood. I loved it. I read a lot of books on it. I was very good, I was excellent at it. I had a natural sense of design, I learned thousands of plant names and fertilizers and insecticides. At the age of 16—at the age of 14, I was working three days a week at the La Jolla Art Center. Three days a week. Three full days a week. And I figured after two years of doing that, that I could take over the contract and work only three days a week making as much money as I was working five days a week. So I talked to Dr. Malone who was the director, and asked him if I could take over the job at 16 years old. And he did not laugh me away as most people would have done. He talked to the Board and they agreed. So I worked three 8hour days, and then the other two days of the week I worked other jobs. Eventually, I worked six days a week, and I was getting a lot of contracts, a lot of work at 16, 17 years old. So then I called my father to come and help me and my business and got him away from the landscaping company. We did that for about 15 years. AC: Did you have a business name? DR: Dan Rios Complete Garden Service and Landscaping. Had no license, no insurance. (laughs) Transcribed by Alexa Clausen 2 �AC: But you know that was not a big deal then. DR: No it wasn’t. AC: It was simply not a big deal. Most people didn't care, and-DR: No. Nobody questioned me. I was never stopped by the city, by the police, or anybody. But I was 16 years old, did not have a driver's license. AC: Now that was bad, that was a problem. (laughs) DR: So I went to buy a '55 Chevrolet pickup, I had the financing and everything, but I had no driver's license. So the salesman ordered me to go to National City (California), get a driver's license. AC: Down to the DMV. DR: Yes and got it. I made really, really good money. I remember. between my father and I, say in 1957 - 58 (we were) making $20,000 a year. And I researched and I found out at the time high school teachers were making $5000 a year. AC: Oh yeah you could probably buy a little home for eighteen or seventeen thousand at the time. DR: We bought a piece of land in Mission Valley for $4000. Paid that off and then we had a house built. It was a 2,000 square foot house for $10,000. The payments were $72 a month. I told my mother, “You know in ten years that’s going to be nothing. That’s going to be a drop in the bucket.” AC: And it was true. DR: Yes. Oh yeah. She died living there. She died in 1980. We built the house in '58. AC: So did she work? Did she end up-DR: No, no, she was--not any more. She did in Hanford. She had an amputated leg and even with that she went out in the fields and pick grapes and picked cotton. And did all kinds of field work. AC: Give me your mother's name. DR: Jennie. Jennie Rios. AC: And father's name? Transcribed by Alexa Clausen 3 �DR: Theodore. AC: Theodore. OK. And were they from that Northern California area? DR: No, no, no. They immigrated separately to the United States during the Mexican Revolution about 1915-16. AC: I’ll be darned. DR: I think my mother was six years old. I think my father was nine years old. AC: Yeah. They came as children. DR: They crossed at El Paso. And they worked themselves--my father worked as a water-boy on the railroad tracks coming to California. My mother's father worked for a construction company building a pipeline. I haven't really researched that. She said the pipe was as big as a diameter that a man sitting on a horse could ride into the pipe. It was that huge. Eventually, the contract ended in Hemet (California). But they came through the San Jacinto Mountains. She remembered the Indians there singing and chanting. AC: There’s a number of Reservations or one or two big ones there. DR: Yes, Saboba. AC: So well we are making our way to your camera, right? So we’ve got you owning your own company, you have your father involved in your business, and you’ve got a house. DR: And a brand-new car. AC: And you are working for the La Jolla Art-DR: Center. AC: As one of your clients. DR: Then I expanded and I had clients. I was working seven days a week, 12 hours a day. No vacations, no holidays. But it was a lot of fun, there was a lot of money coming in. And for an uneducated kid-AC: That becomes important. DR: Yes. AC: You could finally enjoy things-- Transcribed by Alexa Clausen 4 �DR: In fact I'll tell you how uneducated I was: I never understood English, I never understood Math. History and other stuff like that, I could understand. When I would do a contract—an estimate, I would do all round numbers, all whole numbers. AC: Okay. DR: At one point I could not subtract 1.99 from 2.00. I had no idea (Clausen and Rios talking over each other) how to move the figures-AC: Well, you know you were a kid that needed to get money and wanted to leave poverty. DR: Yeah, it was field work and I hated the field work. It was miserable. So even when I had my little business going, I decided--I knew a year in advance what I would be doing. I had so many contracts lined up that it became boring. The work just became boring. So I decided in 1962 to go back to night school and get my high school education. Which I did. I did in three years. I went five nights a week plus Saturdays plus TV shows--TV classes. I think I needed 32 credits to graduate, and I think I graduated with 48 credits. The counselor urged me to be class president, I did not have time for that. So then she bothered me so much, eventually I acquiesced to be Salutatorian for the high school class. AC: Oh nice. DR: When I started, I was in the 30-35% percentile. When I graduated, I was 98 percentile. It just came so easy to me. AC: And boy, you sure did the right thing to get more education. DR: More? Some education. I never had it-AC: Well, you missed out on your childhood in a way. DR: I never had a childhood. I never had a teenage life. When we were at home working, picking, we would never start school in September. It was November. Middle of November we started. And then holidays--then Thanksgiving came, you were off two weeks, then two or three weeks, Christmas came. And we’d (not) come back until the middle of January. And then we would leave school in May. I never started school and I never ended school. AC: I had gone to the Latino Film Festival—I go every year with my friend. I can’t sit through too many movies but we saw one (film) that was a--that followed some children and their education, still today, and how the parents do yank them out of school and they’ll go to El Centro or wherever and the kids are constantly in flux. They still—happens to them, they—and then, the teachers have to try and test them and place them and it still goes on. Transcribed by Alexa Clausen 5 �DR: Well that was me, that was our family. We had to survive, we had to put food on the table, clothes on our backs. AC: Yeah, yeah. DR: We owned our own home, we owned our own car. There was no bills there. AC: Well that was, that was more than a lot. DR: That’s a whole lot of story, because this house we’re living in now is part of my mother's wedding present. I can go into that if you want to later on. But I never wanted—and when I had my own little business, big family gatherings at the house, we had a nice house in San Diego. A lot of family gatherings and stuff like that. But I was bored with my job 'cause I would get up 5 o’clock in the morning. Six o’clock I was out the door and I wouldn’t get back until five or six o’clock. When I started Adult School, high school, I would get home at 5 o’clock, 5:30, take a shower, have a little snack, and go to school between 6 and 9. And then get home and study until 1-2 o’clock in the morning. I would do that for-AC: Well see you had the desire, the drive-DR: Yeah. Five, seven days. And then eventually I stopped working Saturday, used to go to Saturday school. So I graduated and then went to college and I was going to study Civil Engineering. Because it seemed to suit me. I was good in Math, I was good in Science, I was good in Chemistry. AC: Did you start at community college? DR: Yeah. Mesa College. AC: Good school. DR: Yeah. I was there a year and a half, and I took—I was taking pretty heavy classes. I went to take an easy class, a Health Ed. class. Taught by a short, stout, female teacher. No term paper, no mid-term, no quizzes, attendance is good, class participation. The only absolute requirement, concrete--you had to have a hobby at the age of 65 and over. She said, “None of my students going out working 30-40 years, retiring and become the wife or your spouse's pain in the ass,” running the house because she has been for 30-40 years. Chauffer, bookkeeper, cook, shopper, maintenance, raising the kids. She said, “My students will not be a burden to their spouses." AC: (laughs) That is so great. DR: (laughs) You will need a hobby. And I had to prove it. And it does not include rock climbing because at 60-70 years old you’re not going to be doing any rock climbing. Transcribed by Alexa Clausen 6 �So in San Diego, at this here store on University where I went to, they had their camera counter right there where you walked in the front door. I’d often stopped and marveled at all these devices. I had heard about 35-millimeter (cameras), had no idea what it was. I had seen this camera with all these numbers on it. And different colored numbers. I often wondered what it all meant. Because growing up in Hanford we had no money for either film or camera or anything else, there were just no--no extras. So I decided to take a adult (continuing education) class at Mid-way Adult High School in photography. I took it for one semester. Now in college I was carrying a 3.54 average. I got involved in photography, it just overwhelmed me. I could not get enough of it. I just started buying second-hand equipment. AC: I don't know if that Adult School is still there. It was there for years. DR: Probably not. At the time I was going out with a woman who I later married. She was taking an art class and I was taking photography on Wednesdays. I got so involved with photography I started buying used equipment, new equipment when I could afford it. I would buy 100-foot rolls of film and shoot that film in one week. I was just drawn into it. AC: Wow. DR: I was just mesmerized. I couldn't get enough of it, it was like an addict. And so I built a dark room in my mother's garage. At that point I had gotten married. Built the dark room in my mother's garage, I would go in at 4-5 o’clock in the morning, process film. Start printing and proofing and looking at my clock, I would have to be at school at 9 o'clock for a class, 10 o’clock at class-AC: I tell young people and my son, go ahead and plan and take your classes but you don’t know what’s going to come your way. Like don’t get so, you know worry, worry, where’s the job, where’s my job going to be. I said “Stop!” It may come to you and I can’t wait to tell him about--’cause I see him tomorrow, but don’t wear yourself down with worry, you don’t know the twist and turns in your life. Look at that! DR: Well, my mother had a saying that most students go to college to study to be a potato and they come out a yam. (both laugh) So my grades plummeted. I would not go to school. I would try to bone up for a test. I would not show up for class. That last semester just was a disaster. Ended up getting I think a D average. 2.0 or 1.5, 2.0 average. Then I switched college, I decided, I told my wife "I think I want to do--” One of the people, while I switched colleges to study commercial photography, and I had the fortunate-AC: You think? Transcribed by Alexa Clausen 7 �DR: I had the pleasure of two teachers, and I talk about it all the time. Civil Engineering is what I really wanted to do but this photography just, as I said, I was just addicted to it. So I enrolled in this college and had Mr. Bill Dendle’s class in photography at City College and Jack Stevens who also taught the upper grades. And I was so fortunate to have Mr. Dendle as a teacher. And he would just--like an addict, just feeding me like poison with the knowledge. Oh god, he was fantastic. My first semester there, I won the Sweepstakes Award and about 30% of the ribbons because we had a photo contest among the students. And the first day of class, about 35-40 people in the class, Mr. Dendle said, “I don't care; sit on the floor, sit wherever you want. By the end of this week there's gonna be half of you and by the of the month just going to be half of (that). At the year there will be maybe five or seven of you left.” And there were only ten of us left that started. AC: Yeah. Yeah. So he knew you had to have the passion to survive. DR: He was, he was--He had a shelf, it must have been twenty feet long by eight feet high full of photo books. And I would go ask him a question, if I had a problem or had a question, he said, “You know that it is a very good question. It's in the books here, why don't you find out. Look for it and find out the answers.” AC: Interesting. DR: And he would do that to me a lot. AC: So he knew that if you would find it for yourself, it would have more value. DR: Oh yeah. AC: And to remembering and keeping-DR: And, one day about noon, I’d finished my work in the darkroom and he came out and says, “Are you busy right now?” I said no. At this point I was twentynine, no twenty-six. I always felt old in class. Kids were 17-18-19 years old. AC: Yeah. Returning students feel-DR: I'm twenty-three, twenty-four, I’m feeling ancient. So I never mingled with students, fellow students. So he came out to lunch and says, “What are you doing?” I say, “I just finished my dark room work.” He says, “Grab a camera and load it Kodalith film and go take a picture of the quad.” I’d never heard of Kodalith film, it's a graphics arts film. Normal speed of film is 100, 400. This was 6 and I had no idea what it was. So I went and got a 4 x 5 camera, loaded it. Thought I was going to take it--I got Transcribed by Alexa Clausen 8 �a light meter, took it to the quad and took a light reading. It was like a five-second exposure, wide-open on the camera. So I had to go back to get a tripod, went and took the picture, five-second exposures. Back in and processed the film. And I showed it to him and says “What do you want me to do with this?” He said, “Nothing, throw it away.” I said “Well what was that all about?” He said, “Some day when you're a professional, you will be called upon to do different assignments. You better be prepared for anything that comes up.” AC: Wow. DR: We had what's called the photographers bible. It was a book, maybe 5 x 7, by maybe three inches thick with every film, every chemical, every processing imaginable. And that became my bible. I would study that thing left and right. Another thing, one year for Christmas vacation he asked me, “What are you doing for vacation?” Said not a whole lot. He says, “I want you--look up this doctor at a biology lab during Christmas vacation. Want you to shoot color slide, color negative, black and white and infrared film. Go to the doctor with it and ask him what he wants. So Christmas vacation I went, found him and he was doing an autopsy on a cadaver with about four or five students. And I had a cold that day. And they are tearing up this body apart-AC: Oh dear god. DR: They’re just carving into him and I am taking pictures all over. And I asked the doctor, “What do you want pictures of?” He said “Dendle said you would just come over, I’ve got no use for you.” (laughs) So I shot all those four types of film. So anyway I learned the man had apparently been an alcoholic. They took out his kidneys and his liver, (unclear) cirrhosis. Little five-foot girl riding her fingers along the tendon from her toes up to his hip and I couldn’t smell anything I had a cold that day. But I found out that your hair grows after you’re dead, because the cadaver's bald and it had quarter-inch fuzz on him. And he mentioned that to the students. Which I didn’t notice. His hair keeps on growing. AC: And you had that-DR: And the fingernails-AC: On the photo. Lucky you! DR: Yeah right. So after Christmas break I took it all to Dendle, all the proof sheets and all the negatives and everything. “Here's the—what do you want me to do with them?” He said, “Throw them away, I don't want ‘em! I don’t even want to see them.” But that was another lesson in that you’re going to be called Transcribed by Alexa Clausen 9 �upon to do—you don't know what you will be called upon to do. And his advice to me was curiosity. Never lose your curiosity. It will take you through-AC: You think about journalism and for newspapers, yeah I mean you could-DR: But I didn't study for newspapers. AC: No, no, I know-DR: I studied for commercial photography. AC: But he had instincts that you—he didn’t know where you ended up. AC: So he wanted to give you like the worst-case scenario. DR: Right. yeah he wanted to prepare me for whatever came. So he came to me second semester, I think. He said, “How would you like a job working in a photo studio? They don't pay much, a dollar and half an hour. But you work any hours you want. Yopu work weekends, nights, whatever. You get the use of all the cameras, all their equipment, all their paper, everything.” Which was at the time photography was the second most expensive class in college. The first expensive class was welding. So I took that job for a photographer named Bob Boyd, who was another teacher, another instructor. The man was a phenomenal photographer. He worked for Reed, Miller and Murphy Advertising Agency. So I did all his processing, all his pictures. I sent out the color stuff to the labs, but everything else I did. I printed all my stuff, I shot all my assignments in the studio. And like I said, I had just got married. Second--the third semester, Mr. Dendle came up to me and says “How would you like a job on a cruise ship?“ I said, “What are you talking about?” He says, “The Director of the Seven Seas College—Seven Seas University? College. They are touring East China, Japan, Vietnam, going down to Australia and up to North Africa for nine months. No pay. Room and Board, but you can take any class you want. Any you're gonna be the ship's photographer. You can take pictures of whatever anyone wants, of anything. You can take classes of anything you want.” AC: Now at this time you had closed down your landscaping (business) or were you still-DR: No. AC: Did you turn it over to your dad? DR: I had. I gave up most of the contracts. I saved some for my dad to work three--four days a week, three days a week at the most. He was getting ready to retire on Social Security. AC: But for your own income? Transcribed by Alexa Clausen 10 �DR: I worked weekends and in the photo lab. AC: So you are still doing both. DR: Yes. So I had just gotten married and I didn't think it was good to leave my new wife. AC: For nine months. DR: And my stepson. He was five years old. For nine months and with no income. No money coming in. So I didn't do that. But my last year, Bob Boyd who used to do filming, used to do commercials in San Diego, plus professional photography, commercial, helped him out a lot--asked me to go up to Hayward, California with him for a week. Now this is toward the end of the semester. To do a job up there, film developer for a week. So I talked to Mr. Dendle, and he said, “Yeah go ahead, no problem. Your year is completed, get out of here.” So I did. And I completed my classes there and I started looking for work. I had my brochure. I had my—what they call a—my book. They had a name for it. With some of my best photography. AC: Like a portfolio? DR: A brag. Called it a brag book. AC: Oh okay. DR: And I had it, put photos back-to-back in a binder – drill holes and put a All of my best photography was in there. My good photos were back to back in a binder—drill holes and put a spiral backing on it. I went all over town looking for work. Commercial studios, portrait studios, advertising agencies, all over town. And they all said the same thing. Your stuff is really, really good, but you don't have any experience. Go out and get a job for a year and come back. So it was at this time that one of the salesman for a commercial photography sales came in. I asked him if he knew of anyone who wanted a photographer, I says I’m looking for a job. He said, “As a matter of fact, I came from Escondido and they are looking for a photographer in the Escondido newspaper.” AC: Perfect. DR: They got a newspaper in Escondido? (laughs) I had no idea, 'cause I was just San Diego. Had the San Diego Union, Evening Tribune. So on Sunday, we drove up here and got a newspaper from the stand. And they (San Diego Union) had gone letter press and they (Escondido Times-Advocate) were still using virgin paper. No recycled stuff. And It was bright white. And the type was just-and the printing was just amazing. I couldn’t believe it. And the photography! The pictures looked like they were actual photographs. Transcribed by Alexa Clausen 11 �AC: You could cut them out and-DR: And I was used to the letter press in San Diego and I couldn’t believe they had the offset press over here. Said, “oh my god!” And the town was little, I think the town (Escondido) was maybe only twenty-thousand at the time, 20-25,000. AC: You know this is a great place to stop, are we good to stop? DR: Oh yeah, sure. Sure, yeah. AC: Wonderful. I’m gonna hit stop. END Interview 03 - 30 -2017 Transcribed by Alexa Clausen 12 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rios, Dan. Interview transcript, March 30, 2017. Description An account of the resource Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. This interview recounts Rios's childhood and early adulthood, and his personal and educational journey towards becoming a news photographer. As a child and teen laborer Rios, due to extreme heat, convinced his field worker family to leave the Central Valley and join his aunts in San Diego. They moved in 1953. As a 14 year old teen high school drop-out, Rios started his own gardening and landscaping business in La Jolla, California. A client convinced Rios to attend night school to get his high school degree. Rios then pursued a civil engineering degree at community college, eventually dropping the pursuit of engineering when he finds his passion for photography. Rios acquired a degree in commercial and portrait photography at San Diego Community college where he met his mentors. After graduation he sought work as a photographer and landed an interview in Escondido for the regional newspaper, the Escondido Times-Advocate. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Daniel Flores Rios Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Alexa Clausen Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-30 Subject The topic of the resource Agricultural laborers -- California Mesa Community College (San Diego, Calif.) Mexican Americans Photojournalists Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Hanford (Calif.) La Jolla (San Diego, Calif.) Ocean Beach (San Diego, Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-03-30_transcript Community history Latine experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Alexa Clausen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Daniel Flores Rios OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-04-15_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Rios, Dan. Interview, April 15, 2017. SC003-02 00:00:00 SC003 Dan Rios papers CSUSM csusm Chicago Tribune (Firm) ; Escondido Times-Advocate (Escondido (Calif.)) ; Photojournalists ; Escondido (Calif.) Daniel Flores Rios Alexa Clausen 1.0:|11(18)|26(13)|48(5)|63(16)|82(2)|105(14)|120(13)|136(9)|153(11)|178(6)|192(14)|208(16)|222(12)|240(3)|264(6)|286(14)|304(5)|322(3)|335(19)|353(8)|372(11)|388(16)|414(8)|435(13)|457(5)|490(9)|509(16)|522(5)|537(13)|549(15)|565(12)|594(11)|609(18)|631(11)|644(14)|656(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/da6f191d23f549388e74dc4e65755822.wav Other audio Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. &#13 ; &#13 ; In this second interview conducted by Alexa Clausen, Dan Rios discusses starting work for the Escondido Times-Advocate and the beginning of his career at newspaper which was then owned by the Applebee and Carlton families. Rios discusses his work days, the paper's staffing, and his enjoyment in working for the Times-Advocate and in living in Escondido. Rios also discusses the selling of the newspaper to the Chicago Tribune Company and the changes that wrought with new editors, staff layoffs, and a much more difficult working environment. Alexa Clausen: This is April 15th, 2017. Session two with Dan Rios regarding his career as Chief Photographer with the (Escondido) Daily Times-Advocate. Now, Dan, we left off (last interview) having you hear about a job in Escondido, not really sure that you’d been to Escondido many times and going to a newsstand and literally picking up the paper. And then you were telling me how impressed you that the paper being so crisp and vivid. And that’s where we left you off. You literally went to a newspaper stand and grabbed a paper. So tell me your steps to getting hired. Dan Rios: Yeah. Well, I saw the paper and I was really amazed at how good it looked. So I was working for Mr. Boyd in Hillcrest, and on Monday I asked him if I could take the morning off to come and apply for the job. And I did. I drove down here. I met with Curt Babcock, who was the City Editor. He introduced me to George Cordry, assistant City Editor, and Ron Kenny, the Managing Editor. They interviewed me, they saw my portfolio, they saw my brag book and one question they kept repeating was, Did I know how to do color? Since I specialized in color the last year at school (Mesa College), I showed them my color brochure, that I had processed all the film, I had processed all the pictures and they seemed to be pleased with that. That was the end of that interview. Later that day they called and said I was hired and for me to come in the following Monday. AC: Could you give me a date on that? DR: That was the week that—that was 1968. I believe it was May, when Robert Kennedy was killed. AC: Oh my gosh. DR: I started working the week Robert Kennedy died. AC: He was assassinated in Los Angeles. DR: Yes. Yes, by Sirhan Sirhan. They asked me if I can come in on Monday and my shift would be from 7:00 o'clock in the morning until whenever. (chuckles) Whenever I was done. The only problem is I had an appointment with the DMV because I had gotten so many driving tickets. I had an appointment with them on that Monday, so I had asked them if I can postpone it for one day. They agreed. I didn't tell them why. The deal he gave me a one-year probationary period. One more ticket and my license was suspended. So, on Tuesday, the following week, I started. AC: Now let me ask you, were you replacing someone who had retired, or this was a new position for them? DR: They had only hired a part-time photographer. AC: They had a part-time uh-huh. DR: And he had left three, four or five months before me coming here. They had a reporter by the name of Mary Jane Morgan who seemed to know the photography, seemed to know the processing, and she was doing some processing plus her reporting duties. She would process the film for the editorial staff. Because every reporter took their own pictures basically. There were pool cameras. And they went assignment, they took their own pictures, they brought the film in. Mary Jane would process it. In Advertising also they had a pool camera and they would do the same. So when I showed up on Tuesday, there was a stack of rolls of film for me to process. And get busy and organize the dark room and see what the supplies were—chemicals and paper and equipment. I got busy organizing it and started right in. I don't think I got my first assignment until about a week later. And I started--my first assignment--I remember my first assignment was at the Escondido Village Mall at the Walker Scot Pavilion there. Mrs. Purer, Edith Purer I think her name was. I think there’s a road by your-- AC: Yes. DR: (unintelligible) Purer Road. Named after her family. And it was an art exhibit, art contest. So that was my first photograph. Of that. Subsequently I started doing a lot of dark room work in the morning and then shooting the afternoon assignments in the afternoon. I would shoot anything from mug shots to sports events, to society, to accidents, to trials. Everything except professional sports. I was never really much interested in professional sports. AC: And you'd have to what? You’d have to cover the (San Diego) Chargers? DR: No. AC: Where would they send you fort professional—they didn’t do much of that? DR: No. No. They relied on AP and UPI photos. AC: They bought them. Yeah. DR: Yeah, subscribed to those services and-- AC: Had you moved to Escondido? Were you commuting? DR: No, I was commuting. I was getting up at five o' clock in the morning, had a little breakfast, get ready, get dressed. Get out at six and drive a two-lane road to Escondido. I would arrive at work, seven o'clock, work until I was done. Sometimes at work I would have a three, four hour lay-over because my shift would end, but a sporting event would come in. Or a society event would come in later in the day, in the evening. And I would have to stay for that. AC: Were you hourly or salary? DR: I was hourly. A very, very meager salary actually. Well that was one of the conditions that I accepted at work. I talked to my bosses and I said, “You know, you guys aren't paying me a lot of money, I need to earn more money. Am I going to be permitted to use the dark room for my own purposes, for moonlighting?” They said, Yes, no problem, whatever you want. The darkroom is yours after hours. AC: It's the plight of every artistic person. You know? The job and the labor of love. DR: I was fortunate. I got along with everybody, everybody was fantastic. It was just a great boss--Kirk Babcock, the city editor. He could understand my photography. He knew what I was going after and he would compliment me on that. So, it got to the point that it was all over town. And then one of my assignments, we had something called "The North County." (Times-Advocate North County magazine) Which was a Sunday supplement. A magazine type thing. Tabloid type thing. And I was in charge of providing the photography for the cover. Every week, besides my other assignments. There were days when I would scramble all over town trying to find something. It was mostly artsy-fartsy stuff on the cover. Whatever I wanted. They never censored me. They never told me what they wanted. AC: Wow! DR: But it got to a point where I got to know the town. And I would drive a thousand, fifteen-hundred miles a month all over town, and all over the North County, and some assignments in San Diego--not too many. And I would shoot what they called "grab art." Whenever I saw something interesting, I’d take a picture of it. And eventually we had so many of those we couldn't even run them in the paper. And I suggested once that we run a special photo page. No theme, nothing. Just to use the pictures, and on Sunday it was a whole picture. And I came up with the name of "focal reflections." And they were just people, places, events, scenery. Just artsy stuff that I shot that we couldn't use in the paper. And we got a lot, a lot of comments on that. AC: When they were sending you on assignment, were you filling in between what the reporters were doing, or they were there own stories? So were you backing up an assignment of a journalist? DR: Well, most of the time I would go out with a journalist. He would ask questions, I would take pictures. Or if he had gone out and did the story, then they would assign me to go ahead and cover the story (unintelligible). A perfect example of that is--did I ever tell you about Rancho Guajome? AC: No. DR: Eloise Perkins, a historical writer grabbed a hold of me with both fists around my neck (laughs). And she would send me on assignments that she had problems with. And one day I was sitting around--there was two events she sent me on. One, I was sitting around. She said, “What are you doing?” I said, “I’m waiting for an assignment later this afternoon.” (She) says there is this adobe, an abandoned adobe in Vista. Would you go take pictures of it? She gave me the address and I found it. I walked all over the place taking pictures of it. It was collapsing, the floors were rotted, the walls were crumbling. AC: This was before the County bought it and restored it. DR: Yeah. It was just abandoned, I thought. I walked around. I must have spent an hour, hour and half. I went around the back, on the north end of it, there was a trailer there. This man walks out with a shotgun and asked me what the hell was I doing there? I showed him my credentials. I told him what I was doing. He told me he didn't care. He said, If I didn't get my rear end out of there in a hurry that he would start shooting. AC: Oh my god. Thank you, Eloise. DR: So, I got back to Eloise and Eloise just cracked up laughing. She said, “Did that nut threaten you?” I said, “Yeah!” She says, “He chased me away so many times I can't get through the-- AC: So she sends you. DR: And those negatives are in the files. Two and a quarter-inch negatives of all that stuff. AC: You know, you did have—after we shut off the tape, a kind of a get to know Eloise, so I’ll type that up and we can add onto the-- DR: Yeah. She did another one, another Eloise trick she did on me, was at Carrillo Ranch before it became anything. The old lady, Delpy I think her name was, was there. At that point I had a little fame going there at the (newspaper). That I could get along with old ladies. Old ladies and I had a rapport. They would offer me coffee, they would offer me tea, drinks—sodas, whatever. So, Eloise again played a trick on me. She says, Go see Mrs. Delpy at Carrillo Ranch. Take some pictures. So I got there, knocked on the door. She ushered me in, sat me down, offered me coffee, cookies. Told her what I wanted, what I do. She opened up these (photo) albums. with her mother, her stepmother, her stepfather, her family, (Leo) Carrillo, the gatherings, the movie stars. And I started taking copy, photographs of it. And I was there maybe two--two and a half hours talking with her. And eventually I went outside. The stables still were—still had the tack from the early days just rotting away in the stables. So, I again I showed up with Eloise and she’s laughing, said “How did you do with the old lady.” I says, “Great. You know, coffee, tea, cookies, conversation, she was fantastic.” She says, “Oh my god I can't believe it.” So I got a little history there with old ladies. I can handle old ladies, and I got along with them. I got along with everyone. I loved Escondido. The people were just fantastic. I never saw any prejudice on my part. I never experienced it. We had two Hispanic employees in the editorial room. Me and Joe Heredia, who had been there before I was. He subsequently--he had a heart attack and died on the job. AC: Oh my. DR: But--never any problem. I was getting to know people and at that point I had a pretty good memory. I could recognize faces and names. I got to know the city councilmen, most of the Fire Department. And they would call me when things were happening. I got to know the councilmen personally, the mayors, the city attorneys, and had a really good rapport. I loved the city. I loved the population. I loved the society people. They were so gracious. I remember once, they showed me—there was a—can't think of the charity—was a meeting. It was I think in the Fall or toward the Winter. And I showed up. I would pick on one person in a group and semi, lightly make fun of them. To loosen up the room. I wasn't mean, I wasn't vicious. AC: Just teasing. DR: Yeah, just teasing a little bit. So I got to this meeting there early and they were about to have lunch, and they invited me to have lunch. And I said sure. So I had a few snacks here and there and a cup of juice and sat down in front. They got done. And they sat them down and I picked on this one woman. And she was laughing, everyone was laughing. Just to loosen the group up. Then I went to get my IDs, left to right, front to back. And I get back one, the middle one. And her name—by the way the name of the owners (of the Times-Advocate) were Carlton and Applebee. Mrs. Applebee. AC: Now, Lucy (Berk) said—not Applegate? DR: No. Applebee. AC: Like the restaurant. Oh. DR: Applebee. So I got to the middle of the row and this woman. I asked her about her name. To give me her name. Oh god, I can’t remember her first name. An Applebee. And I dropped my pen and my pad of paper and looked at her says, “(and) that’s Mrs. Carlton?” She says, “Mm-hmm.” (Rios and Clausen laugh) AC: Oh they were the owners' wives. DR: Yeah, and I'm jiving with her, I’m teasing her, and I said, Oh god, that's the end of my job. Never brought it up. We became fast friends after that. AC: And this sounds like a style that worked for you to have people relax so you don't have those (stiff) photos. DR: Oh no no, I wouldn’t permit that. Wouldn’t permit hands in front of their bodies either, hiding their crotch. They had to hug people, put their hands in their hands, put hands on their backs. Couldn’t stand these people, just their hands just hanging down. AC: Now you did kind of refer to someone--was it Mr. Babcock--someone said that they liked your style, they knew what you were doing. DR: Yeah, Curt AC: Would you just expand on that a little bit? I'm assuming it’s like a methodology or an artistic approach. DR: Yes. I try to present a viewpoint. Semi-hidden, maybe not so hidden, but I always tried to present a viewpoint. Either through the angle or the lighting. A lot of the time I would take my own lighting. In fact somebody commented--they wrote me a letter that they liked my photography. It reminded them of the earlier photographers in the Midwest. They use to do that. Take multiple lights and set up a little lighting (unintelligible) they were portable. And that was my own device that I thought about. And Curt came up—in fact I was there about six months, and he came up to me, and slapped my back, he says, “How is my serendipity photographer.” No, no, no. Not serendipity. It was “ubiquitous.” “How is my ubiquitous photographer.” I had no idea what that meant. AC: You ran to the dictionary? DR: (laughs) Oh yes. AC: What did he mean? DR: That I was all over town, like a plague. AC: Oh! But it was a compliment. DR: Oh yes. Yes. I was covering everything. My photographs, I had four, five, six photographs in the paper daily. I was doing all the sports, society, the mug shots, and the features, and the artistics, and the grab art. As I said, I would work in the darkroom until noon, and the afternoon it was mine to do what I wanted to. I would do the assignments, do my own, do whatever. The following morning, I would come in to process all the film, do all the proof sheets. Start printing pictures for the advertising, and the editorial, and my own stuff. AC: Had they thought of getting you extra help? DR: They did. About a year later. AC: So, about 1970? DR: Uh-huh, about the middle of 1970. Well people would constantly apply. They would send their resume in. They would send their portfolios, a portion of them. At that point the paper was too small--the salaries were cheap to put it mildly. But I loved the place, and after a year I was planning to go back to San Diego, but I said there was no way I’m going back to San Diego. AC: Oh, you wanted to stay here. DR: Yes, I wanted to stay here. I loved the place, I tolerated the heat. So when they were wanting to hire, I saw this portfolio. Since as a youth, I was never involved in sports, never played sports. Not in school, not extra(curricular), never played sports and I wasn’t that familiar with them. I played softball in grade school, but you know that’s nothing. And then I saw the portfolio of this photographer, Jim Baird and it blew me away. The man was just a phenomenal photographer. And I went to Ron Kenny, I says “I want to hire this guy.” Because he loved sports. Which is something I didn't do and I didn't like! I said he could take that weight off my shoulders. And he could do it with an artistic flair that I could never do. And about that point the Padres had started playing at Petco Park—was called Jack Murphy, or San Diego stadium. AC: Yeah, the old Qualcomm-- DR: Yes. And he would assign himself games because he loved it so much. And I was happier than he was for him to do it. And he did that. And eventually he wanted to do a lot of his own darkroom work and printings that was just fine. But it got to the point where I was doing too much darkroom, not enough photography. So, I went to Ron Kenny again, and I asked him if I can hire a lab tech. Then I could do all-day shooting. Between Baird and myself, we would do the assignments. Then the darkroom technician was Lowell Thorp. He was an older man. He was in his fifties I think at the time. So, he interviewed and he said he wanted no part of photography. He had done that at his previous job and he just wanted darkroom work. And the man was super meticulous. He would come in at five o'clock in the morning. And do all the film, all the proofs. People would hand in their proof sheets with their marked photographs and their crop, and he would supply them. He would hand them out, he would keep the inventory. AC: When do you think this was, what year? Because you said you-- (unintelligible) DR: Jim Baird. Yeah. Jim Baird. Maybe a year later. AC: So ‘71 maybe. DR: And he retired there (at the Times-Advocate), he worked I think fifteen years, retired there. At the end of the year he would produce the summary of all film, all the paper, all the chemicals, everything that was used in the darkroom. The guy was just meticulous, he just loved that place. AC: It was a little bit like his lab? Like his-- DR: Oh it was his domain. Oh my god. If you worked there, he allowed you to work there, but you had better have it clean when you left. I remember when one time there was a reporter, I don't want to name his name, he works for the San Diego Union now. He liked to take his own pictures, and he was on the City Beat. He would get off the City Council Beat at ten-eleven o'clock at night, come in and process the film, print it, go home. Probably one-two o'clock in the morning, go home, come back maybe ten o'clock the following day. Well Lowell got in one day when this reporter had made a mess. He called him at 5 o'clock in the morning to get his butt in there, clean the place up because nothing was going to be done that day until he got there and cleaned his mess up. And he just sat until this reporter showed up. And he did clean the mess up and Lowell started working again. AC: How funny. DR: But he was picky, he was meticulous. He didn't care who worked there. Just clean your mess up. AC: It sounds like in a matter of three years, they hired you and then three-four years made an entire grouping of an entire photographic system from nothing. From having part-time photographers. So North County (San Diego) started a little boom at about the same time. DR: Oh yeah. It was flourishing. It was flourishing. AC: So that reflected in their demand for the newspaper. DR: Yeah. I don’t remember what year it was, early in the in the 70's. We won an award for the best layout in a newspaper regardless of size. And we were winning awards left and right. Editorial awards. I was never very competitive. I was never much into (photography) contests, after school. Didn’t interest me. I don’t know if I mentioned Edith Purer and her--I did join those a couple years. Printed some 16 x 20 prints, won first place, second place, third place in those events. After a couple years I stopped participating in that. AC: So that was your own artistic photography? DR: Yes. AC: What was your specialty, what did you like in your own work? DR: Just sceneries, evening shots, sunsets. AC: Color? DR: Yes, yes. Well no, not all color, some black and white. Would you like some water, I’m sorry-- AC: No, thank you. DR: If I could take you to the computer, I’ve got a screen saver-- AC: Okay. DR: --with some of my pictures. Thank you, Terry (for water). Some of my pictures that I like, that are put on there. On the—but mostly travel. When I was in school, in fact when I was in school, Mr. Dendle, my teacher asked me if I wanted to work for a traveling company, shooting landscapes for post cards, for different cities. That's all I would do is travel across the country photographing cities. AC: I’ll be darned. That’s how they did those, yeah-- DR: Scenery, and cities and whatever-- AC: Landmarks, museums, yeah. DR: Yeah. Send it to the company and they would ship it out to the cities in those stands that they had, those rotating stands. I said, no I wasn't interested in that. AC: Yeah, I like postcards. I don’t have a huge amount but I love it. I love it. DR: And I said, no, I didn’t. But I like scenery, sunsets and that kind of stuff. Nature. AC: I think—maybe people know this if you’re artistic but you have a job, finding time to have a life and your art is difficult. You know, writers do this, and other artists. That balancing the job, the family, and all that. So, had you moved to Escondido yet? DR: No. Was it? Well, yes, by that point. Because I--In getting up at five o'clock in the morning and driving to Escondido to be here at seven o'clock, and then working all day and driving back home--I was living in Hillcrest, and I would start dozing off. Two or three times I dozed off and woke up, so, this was not good. Because I was putting in eight, nine, ten hours a day. I’d have a split shift and work late at night and-- AC: Did they start constructing I-15 yet? DR: No. I've got pictures of Rancho Bernardo with the cows in the pastures where West Bernardo is now. AC: Yeah. With cattle (unintelligible). DR: Yeah. Got pictures of those. AC: So, did they promote you, technically, were you-- DR: No (Rios laughs), I was always Chief Photographer. It was just assumed I was Chief Photographer. There was no ceremony, there was nothing. When my cards came by, it was “Chief Photographer Dan Rios.” AC: Right. So they were too busy publishing a paper to get all these formalities. (Rios laughs) DR: Yeah. Oh yeah. AC: So once it (the Times-Advocate) grew to have a full shop, meaning, you're on assignments, you’re out of the darkroom, you have a tech guy, you have an assistant doing sports. Was-- DR: No he was full time. AC: A full timer. DR: Full time, yeah. AC: So, was-- DR: But he loved sports, specialized in sports which was good for me. AC: Was that the largest the staff ever got? DR: No. AC: Okay, so you’re still growing. DR: It continued to grow. After that we had some stringers. There was a man by the name of Mike Franklin who worked in the production department, who decided he wanted to be a photographer and bought a whole lot of equipment. And came in here and just picked our brains. He wanted to know so much while he was working and then on his days off, we’re talking about he would come back in the dark room and he would chat with Jim and myself about photography, lenses, cameras, film, processing, all kinds of stuff. He never had formal training, but his enthusiasm was just so overwhelming. Eventually, he was hired part time and then full time. And he was a great compliment. He was very good, very artistic. Hard working. AC: What was his name? DR: Mike Franklin. Hispanic. He was a hard, hard, hard worker. AC: Is this still 1970's? DR: Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah. AC: Yeah, okay, so they—the paper’s expanding. DR: Right. Yeah. I will tell you how much it was expanding. Mr. Applebee had us all--everybody in the place--gather in the production department and he told us that he was going to give us a gift. He was starting a profit-sharing plan. Way back when. And he told us, early 70s? Maybe ‘72, ‘73? He told us then that by the time we all retired, if we stayed with the paper long enough, that we would have a lump sum of maybe $100,000 in our retirement fund. AC: And who knew the decline of the paper, huh? DR: Yeah. Soon after, because I think he sold the paper in ‘76, the profit sharing stopped. But those funds were kept up by the Chicago Tribune who bought the paper, and they invested in Chicago Union stock which did diddly forever. But even today I'm still receiving benefits from that retirement fund. A good portion of my retirement fund is Mr. Applebee. AC: Well good for him. It was the right thing to do. They couldn’t keep up a fancy salary, and you were working-- DR: It was never fancy. But I made enough money on moonlighting—you were saying about the spouses—I would work all day and then take assignments. One of the editors would find jobs for you. A lot of jobs. But I would get a lot of jobs, people calling, do you do this? Sure, sure, sure, sure. And I would be working until twelve, one o'clock at night. AC: So when Applebee sells in the 70's, and you are now working for Chicago Tribune, did you sense a difference? Was there any-- DR: Oh it was an earthquake of a change of a difference! They brought in a new publisher who brought in a new city managing editor, who got rid of 50% of the people in the place. At that point, ‘76 I think it was—myself, Jim, Mike, him, him, him—had six photographers on the staff when the paper sold. AC: And he let go half of them? DR: No. They started leaving by themselves. Jim Baird went to the Union, (San Diego Union Tribune), Mike Franklin went to the Union eventually, Sean Haffy later on who also went to the Union. Mike—not Mike Nelson, there was a Nelson character, also went to the Union. Some of them went to the L.A. Times after that. Another Hispanic, Manuel—Manuel something or other, forget his last name, was working there. AC: How did they backfill those jobs? Or was it back to you working crazy hours? DR: No, at that point the new regime that came in started laying off people left and right. And I was not--l had been a golden haired boy with Ron Kenney, and the old staff, and the Applebees. When the new staff came in, I was walking on quicksand because they were laying off so many people. I mean, they laid off half the staff for no reason! We had a city (editor) who was just an ass. Want me to name his name? AC: Sure. Well, its up to you. DR: Eh. A total ass. He would scream at people, verbally insulting people to their face because of their writing. He never did that to me. But I never trusted him, I never liked him. So about a year after the Chicago Tribune bought the paper, I was called up to the office to the publisher, John Armstrong. He told me I was no longer needed as the Chief Photographer. I could remain on the staff, same salary, same benefits, same hours. And no excuse. AC: So what was his point? DR: They would just fire people. Left and right. I think they wanted to get their own group. AC: Shake up everyone? DR: And before the city editor—oh, Tom Nolen, was the city editor’s name. He started the firing people after, I mean he was the one who would scream and yelling at people. And he would intimidate them, they would leave on their own. AC: Did these people come from another area? DR: All from the East Coast. AC: They were? DR: All from the East Coast. Chicago would just send them all down. In fact, all the comptrollers, all the business people. AC: So they wanted to move their own people here. DR: Oh yeah. They just moved their whole-- AC: And get everyone that wanted out of Chicago to come here and have a job. Oh my. DR: And about that time—because working for the Applebees was a dream, it was a (dream) job come true. When Curt Babcock left—he went to the Albuquerque paper, George Cordry took it (Babcock’s position). And I used to tell my wife, if I ever have a dream job and a dream boss, it would be George Cordry, would be my boss. And a year later, he became my boss. And he was just a fantastic boss. AC: So things settle down? DR: Well, yeah, Ron Kenny—George Cordry was let go. All the City Editors were let go, they put their own staff in. Ron Kenney who had been Managing Editor, became Assistant Publisher and they gave him an office next to John Armstrong. Second floor, with absolutely nothing to do. No assignments, no writing, nothing. The gave an office, a desk, a phone, a typewriter. He said he read the San Diego Union from page to everything, the LA Times every day. Then he would go to lunch. Come back and sit around with nothing to do. Eventually-- AC: So was that their way of letting go people without having benefits? I mean-- DR: Well, I don't know what their deal was. When Applebee-- AC: Not giving them unemployment? They didn’t want to give them unemployment? DR: I don’t know what the deal was. AC: Or the contract or something? The contract-- DR: Maybe it was in the contract with Applebee. But what Applebee did when he sold the paper, I believe he sold it for $15 million dollars. He gave all the managers something like $100,000 each. AC: Bonus? DR: Yeah. And every employee—paid them $100 for every year they worked for the paper. Handed everybody checks before he left. And I don't know whether Ron Kenney, who was Assistant Publisher, what kind of deal he had, but he had his money and eventually he quit and moved to Pennsylvania, bought a little store, and I think he started a little store, hotel or motel. Eventually he came back and went to work for the San Diego Union as editorial writer. A good writer. Ron Kenny’s a good writer. AC: You know, I’m thinking, and you tell me, if this is this a good place to stop, because you know the transcription on 35 minutes—you know I’m going to be doing (unintelligible). But do you—is a good stop the Chicago Tribune years? DR: Sure. They were not fun. Not fun. In fact let me tell you a little story. When they moved in, after a year or so, one of my favorite reporters, Bob MacDonald, a columnist had retired and we would get coffee almost every morning. And I told him about my problems with the Chicago Tribune and with John Armstrong. How I was walking on eggshells. I didn't want to lose my job, my security. I loved the town. I didn't want to move anywhere. At that point I had family here, I had roots here, I didn’t want to go anywhere. So I talked to MacDonald about my problems and he said, “Do you like the job, do you like your work?” “Yeah, but they’re not giving me a whole lot of assignments.” Maybe one or two a day, where I was taking five, six, seven assignments. I was busy—you know, “ubiquitous Rios.” He said, “Tell you what, take their check, cash it, spend it, live it up. Don't worry about that. If they want to fire you, eventually they will. If they don't, they too will get fired some day.” And they did. Tom Nolen got canned. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-04-15_access.xml RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-04-15_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rios, Dan. Interview, April 15, 2017. Description An account of the resource Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. In this second interview conducted by Alexa Clausen, Dan Rios discusses starting work for the Escondido Times-Advocate and the beginning of his career at newspaper which was then owned by the Applebee and Carlton families. Rios discusses his work days, the paper's staffing, and his enjoyment in working for the Times-Advocate and in living in Escondido. Rios also discusses the selling of the newspaper to the Chicago Tribune Company and the changes that wrought with new editors, staff layoffs, and a much more difficult working environment. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC003-02 Subject The topic of the resource Chicago Tribune (Firm) Escondido Times-Advocate (Escondido, Calif.) Photojournalists Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-15 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Daniel Flores Rios Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Alexa Clausen Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Community history Latine experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5b54bf618e85a48ceaf7e13292022191.pdf 58abe16222e0b72af886c11325ebca9f PDF Text Text North County's 'Ubiquitous Photographer' Dan Rios Interview 2 with Alexa Clausen April 15, 2017, Escondido California Rios was Chief Photographer, Escondido Times-Advocate (1968 - 1994); North County Times (1995-2001) Alexa Clausen: This is April 15th, 2017. Session two with Dan Rios regarding his career as Chief Photographer with the (Escondido) Daily Times-Advocate. Now, Dan, we left off (last interview) having you hear about a job in Escondido, not really sure that you’d been to Escondido many times and going to a newsstand and literally picking up the paper. And then you were telling me how impressed you that the paper being so crisp and vivid. And that’s where we left you off. You literally went to a newspaper stand and grabbed a paper. So tell me your steps to getting hired. Dan Rios: Yeah. Well, I saw the paper and I was really amazed at how good it looked. So I was working for Mr. Boyd in Hillcrest, and on Monday I asked him if I could take the morning off to come and apply for the job. And I did. I drove down here. I met with Curt Babcock, who was the City Editor. He introduced me to George Cordry, assistant City Editor, and Ron Kenny, the Managing Editor. They interviewed me, they saw my portfolio, they saw my brag book and one question they kept repeating was, Did I know how to do color? Since I specialized in color the last year at school (Mesa College), I showed them my color brochure, that I had processed all the film, I had processed all the pictures and they seemed to be pleased with that. That was the end of that interview. Later that day they called and said I was hired and for me to come in the following Monday. AC: Could you give me a date on that? DR: That was the week that—that was 1968. I believe it was May, when Robert Kennedy was killed. AC: Oh my gosh. DR: I started working the week Robert Kennedy died. AC: He was assassinated in Los Angeles. DR: Yes. Yes, by Sirhan Sirhan. They asked me if I can come in on Monday and my shift would be from 7:00 o'clock in the morning until whenever. (chuckles) Whenever I was done. The only problem is I had an appointment with the DMV because I had gotten so many driving tickets. I had an appointment with them on that Monday, so I had asked them if I can postpone it for one day. They agreed. I didn't tell them why. The deal he gave me a one-year probationary period. One more ticket and my license was suspended. So, on Tuesday, the following week, I started. 1 �AC: Now let me ask you, were you replacing someone who had retired, or this was a new position for them? DR: They had only hired a part-time photographer. AC: They had a part-DR: And he had left three, four or five months before me coming here. They had a reporter by the name of Mary Jane Morgan who seemed to know the photography, seemed to know the processing, and she was doing some processing plus her reporting duties. She would process the film for the editorial staff. Because every reporter took their own pictures basically. There were pool cameras. And they went assignment, they took their own pictures, they brought the film in. Mary Jane would process it. In Advertising also they had a pool camera and they would do the same. So when I showed up on Tuesday, there was a stack of rolls of film for me to process. And get busy and organize the dark room and see what the supplies were—chemicals and paper and equipment. I got busy organizing it and started right in. I don't think I got my first assignment until about a week later. And I started--my first assignment--I remember my first assignment was at the Escondido Village Mall at the Walker Scot Pavilion there. Mrs. Purer, Edith Purer I think her name was. I think there’s a road by your-AC: Yes. DR: (unintelligible) Purer Road. Named after her family. And it was an art exhibit, art contest. So that was my first photograph. Of that. Subsequently I started doing a lot of dark room work in the morning and then shooting the afternoon assignments in the afternoon. I would shoot anything from mug shots to sports events, to society, to accidents, to trials. Everything except professional sports. I was never really much interested in professional sports. AC: And you'd have to what? You’d have to cover the (San Diego) Chargers? DR: No. AC: Where would they send you fort professional—they didn’t do much of that? DR: No. No. They relied on AP and UPI photos. AC: They bought them. Yeah. DR: Yeah, subscribed to those services and-AC: Had you moved to Escondido? Were you commuting? DR: No, I was commuting. I was getting up at five o' clock in the morning, had a little breakfast, get ready, get dressed. Get out at six and drive a two-lane road to Escondido. I 2 �would arrive at work, seven o'clock, work until I was done. Sometimes at work I would have a three, four hour lay-over because my shift would end, but a sporting event would come in. Or a society event would come in later in the day, in the evening. And I would have to stay for that. AC: Were you hourly or salary? DR: I was hourly. A very, very meager salary actually. Well that was one of the conditions that I accepted at work. I talked to my bosses and I said, “You know, you guys aren't paying me a lot of money, I need to earn more money. Am I going to be permitted to use the dark room for my own purposes, for moonlighting?” They said, Yes, no problem, whatever you want. The darkroom is yours after hours. AC: It's the plight of every artistic person. You know? The job and the labor of love. DR: I was fortunate. I got along with everybody, everybody was fantastic. It was just a great boss--Kirk Babcock, the city editor. He could understand my photography. He knew what I was going after and he would compliment me on that. So, it got to the point that it was all over town. And then one of my assignments, we had something called "The North County." (Times-Advocate North County magazine) Which was a Sunday supplement. A magazine type thing. Tabloid type thing. And I was in charge of providing the photography for the cover. Every week, besides my other assignments. There were days when I would scramble all over town trying to find something. It was mostly artsyfartsy stuff on the cover. Whatever I wanted. They never censored me. They never told me what they wanted. AC: Wow! DR: But it got to a point where I got to know the town. And I would drive a thousand, fifteen-hundred miles a month all over town, and all over the North County, and some assignments in San Diego--not too many. And I would shoot what they called "grab art." Whenever I saw something interesting, I’d take a picture of it. And eventually we had so many of those we couldn't even run them in the paper. And I suggested once that we run a special photo page. No theme, nothing. Just to use the pictures, and on Sunday it was a whole picture. And I came up with the name of "focal reflections." And they were just people, places, events, scenery. Just artsy stuff that I shot that we couldn't use in the paper. And we got a lot, a lot of comments on that. AC: When they were sending you on assignment, were you filling in between what the reporters were doing, or they were there own stories? So were you backing up an assignment of a journalist? DR: Well, most of the time I would go out with a journalist. He would ask questions, I would take pictures. Or if he had gone out and did the story, then they would assign me to go ahead and cover the story (unintelligible). A perfect example of that is--did I ever tell you about Rancho Guajome? AC: No. 3 �DR: Eloise Perkins, a historical writer grabbed a hold of me with both fists around my neck (laughs). And she would send me on assignments that she had problems with. And one day I was sitting around--there was two events she sent me on. One, I was sitting around. She said, “What are you doing?” I said, “I’m waiting for an assignment later this afternoon.” (She) says there is this adobe, an abandoned adobe in Vista. Would you go take pictures of it? She gave me the address and I found it. I walked all over the place taking pictures of it. It was collapsing, the floors were rotted, the walls were crumbling. AC: This was before the County bought it and restored it. DR: Yeah. It was just abandoned, I thought. I walked around. I must have spent an hour, hour and half. I went around the back, on the north end of it, there was a trailer there. This man walks out with a shotgun and asked me what the hell was I doing there? I showed him my credentials. I told him what I was doing. He told me he didn't care. He said, If I didn't get my rear end out of there in a hurry that he would start shooting. AC: Oh my god. Thank you, Eloise. DR: So, I got back to Eloise and Eloise just cracked up laughing. She said, “Did that nut threaten you?” I said, “Yeah!” She says, “He chased me away so many times I can't get through the-AC: So she sends you. DR: And those negatives are in the files. Two and a quarter-inch negatives of all that stuff. AC: You know, you did have—after we shut off the tape, a kind of a get to know Eloise, so I’ll type that up and we can add onto the-DR: Yeah. She did another one, another Eloise trick she did on me, was at Carrillo Ranch before it became anything. The old lady, Delpy I think her name was, was there. At that point I had a little fame going there at the (newspaper). That I could get along with old ladies. Old ladies and I had a rapport. They would offer me coffee, they would offer me tea, drinks—sodas, whatever. So, Eloise again played a trick on me. She says, Go see Mrs. Delpy at Carrillo Ranch. Take some pictures. So I got there, knocked on the door. She ushered me in, sat me down, offered me coffee, cookies. Told her what I wanted, what I do. She opened up these (photo) albums. with her mother, her stepmother, her stepfather, her family, (Leo) Carrillo, the gatherings, the movie stars. And I started taking copy, photographs of it. And I was there maybe two--two and a half hours talking with her. And eventually I went outside. The stables still were—still had the tack from the early days just rotting away in the stables. So, I again I showed up with Eloise and she’s laughing, said “How did you do with the old lady.” I says, “Great. You know, coffee, tea, cookies, conversation, she was fantastic.” She says, “Oh my god I can't believe it.” So I got a little history there with 4 �old ladies. I can handle old ladies, and I got along with them. I got along with everyone. I loved Escondido. The people were just fantastic. I never saw any prejudice on my part. I never experienced it. We had two Hispanic employees in the editorial room. Me and Joe Heredia, who had been there before I was. He subsequently--he had a heart attack and died on the job. AC: Oh my. DR: But--never any problem. I was getting to know people and at that point I had a pretty good memory. I could recognize faces and names. I got to know the city councilmen, most of the Fire Department. And they would call me when things were happening. I got to know the councilmen personally, the mayors, the city attorneys, and had a really good rapport. I loved the city. I loved the population. I loved the society people. They were so gracious. I remember once, they showed me—there was a—can't think of the charity—was a meeting. It was I think in the Fall or toward the Winter. And I showed up. I would pick on one person in a group and semi, lightly make fun of them. To loosen up the room. I wasn't mean, I wasn't vicious. AC: Just teasing. DR: Yeah, just teasing a little bit. So I got to this meeting there early and they were about to have lunch, and they invited me to have lunch. And I said sure. So I had a few snacks here and there and a cup of juice and sat down in front. They got done. And they sat them down and I picked on this one woman. And she was laughing, everyone was laughing. Just to loosen the group up. Then I went to get my IDs, left to right, front to back. And I get back one, the middle one. And her name—by the way the name of the owners (of the Times-Advocate) were Carlton and Applebee. Mrs. Applebee. AC: Now, Lucy (Berk) said—not Applegate? DR: No. Applebee. AC: Like the restaurant. Oh. DR: Applebee. So I got to the middle of the row and this woman. I asked her about her name. To give me her name. Oh god, I can’t remember her first name. An Applebee. And I dropped my pen and my pad of paper and looked at her says, “(and) that’s Mrs. Carlton?” She says, “Mm-hmm.” (Rios and Clausen laugh) AC: Oh they were the owners' wives. DR: Yeah, and I'm jiving with her, I’m teasing her, and I said, Oh god, that's the end of my job. Never brought it up. We became fast friends after that. AC: And this sounds like a style that worked for you to have people relax so you don't have those (stiff) photos. 5 �DR: Oh no no, I wouldn’t permit that. Wouldn’t permit hands in front of their bodies either, hiding their crotch. They had to hug people, put their hands in their hands, put hands on their backs. Couldn’t stand these people, just their hands just hanging down. AC: Now you did kind of refer to someone--was it Mr. Babcock--someone said that they liked your style, they knew what you were doing. DR: Yeah, Curt AC: Would you just expand on that a little bit? I'm assuming it’s like a methodology or an artistic approach. DR: Yes. I try to present a viewpoint. Semi-hidden, maybe not so hidden, but I always tried to present a viewpoint. Either through the angle or the lighting. A lot of the time I would take my own lighting. In fact somebody commented--they wrote me a letter that they liked my photography. It reminded them of the earlier photographers in the Midwest. They use to do that. Take multiple lights and set up a little lighting (unintelligible) they were portable. And that was my own device that I thought about. And Curt came up—in fact I was there about six months, and he came up to me, and slapped my back, he says, “How is my serendipity photographer.” No, no, no. Not serendipity. It was “ubiquitous.” “How is my ubiquitous photographer.” I had no idea what that meant. AC: You ran to the dictionary? DR: (laughs) Oh yes. AC: What did he mean? DR: That I was all over town, like a plague. AC: Oh! But it was a compliment. DR: Oh yeah. Yes, yes. I was covering everything. My photographs, I had four, five, six photographs in the paper daily. I was doing all the sports, society, the mug shots, and the features, and the artistics, and the grab art. As I said, I would work in the darkroom until noon, and the afternoon it was mine to do what I wanted to. I would do the assignments, do my own, do whatever. The following morning, I would come in to process all the film, do all the proof sheets. Start printing pictures for the advertising, and the editorial, and my own stuff. AC: Had they thought of getting you extra help? DR: They did. About a year later. AC: So, about 1970? 6 �DR: Uh-huh, about the middle of 1970. Well people would constantly apply. They would send their resume in. They would send their portfolios, a portion of them. At that point the paper was too small--the salaries were cheap to put it mildly. But I loved the place, and after a year I was planning to go back to San Diego, but I said there was no way I’m going back to San Diego. AC: Oh, you wanted to stay here. DR: Yes, I wanted to stay here. I loved the place, I tolerated the heat. So when they were wanting to hire, I saw this portfolio. Since as a youth, I was never involved in sports, never played sports. Not in school, not extra(curricular), never played sports and I wasn’t that familiar with them. I played softball in grade school, but you know that’s nothing. And then I saw the portfolio of this photographer, Jim Baird and it blew me away. The man was just a phenomenal photographer. And I went to Ron Kenny, I says “I want to hire this guy.” Because he loved sports. Which is something I didn't do and I didn't like! I said he could take that weight off my shoulders. And he could do it with an artistic flair that I could never do. And about that point the Padres had started playing at Petco Park—was called Jack Murphy, or San Diego stadium. AC: Yeah, the old Qualcomm-DR: Yes. And he would assign himself games because he loved it so much. And I was happier than he was for him to do it. And he did that. And eventually he wanted to do a lot of his own darkroom work and printings that was just fine. But it got to the point where I was doing too much darkroom, not enough photography. So, I went to Ron Kenny again, and I asked him if I can hire a lab tech. Then I could do all-day shooting. Between Baird and myself, we would do the assignments. Then the darkroom technician was Lowell Thorp. He was an older man. He was in his fifties I think at the time. So, he interviewed and he said he wanted no part of photography. He had done that at his previous job and he just wanted darkroom work. And the man was super meticulous. He would come in at five o'clock in the morning. And do all the film, all the proofs. People would hand in their proof sheets with their marked photographs and their crop, and he would supply them. He would hand them out, he would keep the inventory. AC: When do you think this was, what year? Because you said you-- (unintelligible) DR: Jim Baird. Yeah. Jim Baird. Maybe a year later. AC: So ‘71 maybe. DR: And he retired there (at the Times-Advocate), he worked I think fifteen years, retired there. At the end of the year he would produce the summary of all film, all the paper, all 7 �the chemicals, everything that was used in the darkroom. The guy was just meticulous, he just loved that place. AC: It was a little bit like his lab? Like his-DR: Oh it was his domain. Oh my god. If you worked there, he allowed you to work there, but you had better have it clean when you left. I remember when one time there was a reporter, I don't want to name his name, he works for the San Diego Union now. He liked to take his own pictures, and he was on the City Beat. He would get off the City Council Beat at ten-eleven o'clock at night, come in and process the film, print it, go home. Probably one-two o'clock in the morning, go home, come back maybe ten o'clock the following day. Well Lowell got in one day when this reporter had made a mess. He called him at 5 o'clock in the morning to get his butt in there, clean the place up because nothing was going to be done that day until he got there and cleaned his mess up. And he just sat until this reporter showed up. And he did clean the mess up and Lowell started working again. AC: How funny. DR: But he was picky, he was meticulous. He didn't care who worked there. Just clean your mess up. AC: It sounds like in a matter of three years, they hired you and then three-four years made an entire grouping of an entire photographic system from nothing. From having part-time photographers. So North County (San Diego) started a little boom at about the same time. DR: Oh yeah. It was flourishing. It was flourishing. AC: So that reflected in their demand for the newspaper. DR: Yeah. I don’t remember what year it was, early in the in the 70's. We won an award for the best layout in a newspaper regardless of size. And we were winning awards left and right. Editorial awards. I was never very competitive. I was never much into (photography) contests, after school. Didn’t interest me. I don’t know if I mentioned Edith Purer and her--I did join those a couple years. Printed some 16 x 20 prints, won first place, second place, third place in those events. After a couple years I stopped participating in that. AC: So that was your own artistic photography? DR: Yes. AC: What was your specialty, what did you like in your own work? DR: Just sceneries, evening shots, sunsets. AC: Color? 8 �DR: Yes, yes. Well no, not all color, some black and white. Would you like some water, I’m sorry-AC: No, thank you. DR: If I could take you to the computer, I’ve got a screen saver-AC: Okay. DR: --with some of my pictures. Thank you, Terry (for water). Some of my pictures that I like, that are put on there. On the—but mostly travel. When I was in school, in fact when I was in school, Mr. Dendle, my teacher asked me if I wanted to work for a traveling company, shooting landscapes for post cards, for different cities. That's all I would do is travel across the country photographing cities. AC: I’ll be darned. That’s how they did those, yeah-DR: Scenery, and cities and whatever-AC: Landmarks, museums, yeah. DR: Yeah. Send it to the company and they would ship it out to the cities in those stands that they had, those rotating stands. I said, no I wasn't interested in that. AC: Yeah, I like postcards. I don’t have a huge amount but I love it. I love it. DR: And I said, no, I didn’t. But I like scenery, sunsets and that kind of stuff. Nature. AC: I think—maybe people know this if you’re artistic but you have a job, finding time to have a life and your art is difficult. You know, writers do this, and other artists. That balancing the job, the family, and all that. So, had you moved to Escondido yet? DR: No. Was it? Well, yes, by that point. Because I--In getting up at five o'clock in the morning and driving to Escondido to be here at seven o'clock, and then working all day and driving back home--I was living in Hillcrest, and I would start dozing off. Two or three times I dozed off and woke up, so, this was not good. Because I was putting in eight, nine, ten hours a day. I’d have a split shift and work late at night and-AC: Did they start constructing I-15 yet? DR: No. I've got pictures of Rancho Bernardo with the cows in the pastures where West Bernardo is now. AC: Yeah. With cattle (unintelligible). DR: Yeah. Got pictures of those. 9 �AC: So, did they promote you, technically, were you-DR: No (Rios laughs), I was always Chief Photographer. It was just assumed I was Chief Photographer. There was no ceremony, there was nothing. When my cards came by, it was “Chief Photographer Dan Rios.” AC: Right. So they were too busy publishing a paper to get all these formalities. (Rios laughs) DR: Yeah. Oh yeah. AC: So once it (the Times-Advocate) grew to have a full shop, meaning, you're on assignments, you’re out of the darkroom, you have a tech guy, you have an assistant doing sports. Was-DR: No he was full time. AC: A full timer. DR: Full time, yeah. AC: So, was-DR: But he loved sports, specialized in sports which was good for me. AC: Was that the largest the staff ever got? DR: No. AC: Okay, so you’re still growing. DR: It continued to grow. After that we had some stringers. There was a man by the name of Mike Franklin who worked in the production department, who decided he wanted to be a photographer and bought a whole lot of equipment. And came in here and just picked our brains. He wanted to know so much while he was working and then on his days off, we’re talking about he would come back in the dark room and he would chat with Jim and myself about photography, lenses, cameras, film, processing, all kinds of stuff. He never had formal training, but his enthusiasm was just so overwhelming. Eventually, he was hired part time and then full time. And he was a great compliment. He was very good, very artistic. Hard working. AC: What was his name? DR: Mike Franklin. Hispanic. He was a hard, hard, hard worker. AC: Is this still 1970's? DR: Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah. 10 �AC: Yeah, okay, so they—the paper’s expanding. DR: Right. Yeah. I will tell you how much it was expanding. Mr. Applebee had us all-everybody in the place--gather in the production department and he told us that he was going to give us a gift. He was starting a profit-sharing plan. Way back when. And he told us, early 70s? Maybe ‘72, ‘73? He told us then that by the time we all retired, if we stayed with the paper long enough, that we would have a lump sum of maybe $100,000 in our retirement fund. AC: And who knew the decline of the paper, huh? DR: Yeah. Soon after, because I think he sold the paper in ‘76, the profit sharing stopped. But those funds were kept up by the Chicago Tribune who bought the paper, and they invested in Chicago Union stock which did diddly forever. But even today I'm still receiving benefits from that retirement fund. A good portion of my retirement fund is Mr. Applebee. AC: Well good for him. It was the right thing to do. They couldn’t keep up a fancy salary, and you were working-DR: It was never fancy. But I made enough money on moonlighting—you were saying about the spouses—I would work all day and then take assignments. One of the editors would find jobs for you. A lot of jobs. But I would get a lot of jobs, people calling, do you do this? Sure, sure, sure, sure. And I would be working until twelve, one o'clock at night. AC: So when Applebee sells in the 70's, and you are now working for Chicago Tribune, did you sense a difference? Was there any-DR: Oh it was an earthquake of a change of a difference! They brought in a new publisher who brought in a new city managing editor, who got rid of 50% of the people in the place. At that point, ‘76 I think it was—myself, Jim, Mike, him, him, him—had six photographers on the staff when the paper sold. AC: And he let go half of them? DR: No. They started leaving by themselves. Jim Baird went to the Union, (San Diego Union Tribune), Mike Franklin went to the Union eventually, Sean Haffy later on who also went to the Union. Mike—not Mike Nelson, there was a Nelson character, also went to the Union. Some of them went to the L.A. Times after that. Another Hispanic, Manuel—Manuel something or other, forget his last name, was working there. AC: How did they backfill those jobs? Or was it back to you working crazy hours? DR: No, at that point the new regime that came in started laying off people left and right. And I was not--l had been a golden haired boy with Ron Kenney, and the old staff, and 11 �the Applebees. When the new staff came in, I was walking on quicksand because they were laying off so many people. I mean, they laid off half the staff for no reason! We had a city (editor) who was just an ass. Want me to name his name? AC: Sure. Well, its up to you. DR: Eh. A total ass. He would scream at people, verbally insulting people to their face because of their writing. He never did that to me. But I never trusted him, I never liked him. So about a year after the Chicago Tribune bought the paper, I was called up to the office to the publisher, John Armstrong. He told me I was no longer needed as the Chief Photographer. I could remain on the staff, same salary, same benefits, same hours. And no excuse. AC: So what was his point? DR: They would just fire people. Left and right. I think they wanted to get their own group. AC: Shake up everyone? DR: And before the city editor—oh, Tom Nolen, was the city editor’s name. He started the firing people after, I mean he was the one who would scream and yelling at people. And he would intimidate them, they would leave on their own. AC: Did these people come from another area? DR: All from the East Coast. AC: They were? DR: All from the East Coast. Chicago would just send them all down. In fact, all the comptrollers, all the business people. AC: So they wanted to move their own people here. DR: Oh yeah. They just moved their whole-AC: And get everyone that wanted out of Chicago to come here and have a job. Oh my. DR: And about that time—because working for the Applebees was a dream, it was a (dream) job come true. When Curt Babcock left—he went to the Albuquerque paper, George Cordry took it (Babcock’s position). And I used to tell my wife, if I ever have a dream job and a dream boss, it would be George Cordry, would be my boss. And a year later, he became my boss. And he was just a fantastic boss. AC: So things settle down? 12 �DR: Well, yeah, Ron Kenny—George Cordry was let go. All the City Editors were let go, they put their own staff in. Ron Kenney who had been Managing Editor, became Assistant Publisher and they gave him an office next to John Armstrong. Second floor, with absolutely nothing to do. No assignments, no writing, nothing. The gave an office, a desk, a phone, a typewriter. He said he read the San Diego Union from page to everything, the LA Times every day. Then he would go to lunch. Come back and sit around with nothing to do. Eventually-AC: So was that their way of letting go people without having benefits? I mean-DR: Well, I don't know what their deal was. When Applebee-AC: Not giving them unemployment? They didn’t want to give them unemployment? DR: I don’t know what the deal was. AC: Or the contract or something? The contract-DR: Maybe it was in the contract with Applebee. But what Applebee did when he sold the paper, I believe he sold it for $15 million dollars. He gave all the managers something like $100,000 each. AC: Bonus? DR: Yeah. And every employee—paid them $100 for every year they worked for the paper. Handed everybody checks before he left. And I don't know whether Ron Kenney, who was Assistant Publisher, what kind of deal he had, but he had his money and eventually he quit and moved to Pennsylvania, bought a little store, and I think he started a little store, hotel or motel. Eventually he came back and went to work for the San Diego Union as editorial writer. A good writer. Ron Kenny’s a good writer. AC: You know, I’m thinking, and you tell me, if this is this a good place to stop, because you know the transcription on 35 minutes—you know I’m going to be doing (unintelligible). But do you—is a good stop the Chicago Tribune years? DR: Sure. They were not fun. Not fun. In fact let me tell you a little story. When they moved in, after a year or so, one of my favorite reporters, Bob MacDonald, a columnist had retired and we would get coffee almost every morning. And I told him about my problems with the Chicago Tribune and with John Armstrong. How I was walking on eggshells. I didn't want to lose my job, my security. I loved the town. I didn't want to move anywhere. At that point I had family here, I had roots here, I didn’t want to go anywhere. So I talked to MacDonald about my problems and he said, “Do you like the job, do you like your work?” “Yeah, but they’re not giving me a whole lot of assignments.” Maybe one or two a day, where I was taking five, six, seven assignments. I was busy—you know, “ubiquitous Rios.” He said, “Tell you what, take their check, cash it, spend it, live it up. Don't worry about that. If they want to fire you, eventually they will. If they don't, they too will get fired some day.” And they did. Tom Nolen got canned. 13 �END SESSION 2 14 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rios, Dan. Interview transcript, April 15, 2017. Description An account of the resource Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. In this second interview conducted by Alexa Clausen, Dan Rios discusses starting work for the Escondido Times-Advocate and the beginning of his career at newspaper which was then owned by the Applebee and Carlton families. Rios discusses his work days, the paper's staffing, and his enjoyment in working for the Times-Advocate and in living in Escondido. Rios also discusses the selling of the newspaper to the Chicago Tribune Company and the changes that wrought with new editors, staff layoffs, and a much more difficult working environment. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Daniel Flores Rios Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Alexa Clausen Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-15 Subject The topic of the resource Chicago Tribune (Firm) Escondido Times-Advocate (Escondido, Calif.) Photojournalists Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-04-15_transcript Community history Latine experience