4 10 182 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Michael De Maria Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Daniela Carreon OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CarreonDaniela_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-06.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Carreon, Daniela. Interview April 6th, 2023. SC027-40 00:46:15 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance ; California State University San Marcos. Ethnic Studies ; California State University San Marcos. Events and Conference Services ; Civil rights ; Encinitas (Calif.) ; Escondido (Calif.) ; Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán ; Student movements ; Psychic trauma Daniela Carreon Michael De Maria CarreonDaniela_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-06.mp4 1:|16(2)|30(3)|38(15)|55(2)|67(12)|87(5)|106(2)|116(9)|141(4)|157(13)|168(9)|192(8)|202(13)|225(3)|254(2)|265(12)|275(9)|285(8)|302(2)|320(2)|332(16)|348(4)|358(8)|367(6)|377(7)|393(12)|405(10)|415(9)|424(7)|435(8)|457(10)|468(15)|482(6)|509(7)|521(16)|530(14)|547(2)|557(3)|570(11)|583(5)|596(8)|616(2)|628(14)|654(5)|666(17)|680(10)|694(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/7a398a04e0a57b5ef9c910c7403f33fc.mp4 Other video English 0 Carreon's Background Michael De Maria introduces Daniela Carreon to speak about her experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM. To begin, Carreon speaks to her background growing up Escondido and going to school in Encinitas. She explains the differing demographics and what it was like as a Latina attending a predominately affluent and White school. 0 227 Pathway to CSUSM From her earlier educational experience, Daniela explains her reasoning for attending CSUSM. She explains not wanting to attend another PWI (Predominantly White Institution), such as Sonoma State. Instead, Carreon chose to attend the ethnically and economically diverse CSUSM. Regarding personal growth, Carreon considered this one of her best decisions. 0 384 Becoming Involved with the Cross-Cultural Center Through a first-year general education course, Carreon first became aware of the CCC. For a class assignment, she interviewed former CCC director Floyd Lai. Through Carreon's work with MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán), Carreon began mentoring incoming freshman, and later applied to become the center's social media manager. 0 494 Earlier CCC Development Carreon recalls the CCC when she first began her involvement, when programs such as Critical Cougars and the Activist Lab were not yet implemented. As social media manager, Carreon's role focused on outreach and promotion of educational imagery ; an education that came from political unlearning, which Carreon speaks about later on. 0 570 Relationship Between the CCC and Other Student Organizations Through her role as a social media manager at the CCC, and her work with MEChA, Carreon remembers the solidarity between student organizations. From simply sharing the space together, to actively supporting the Kamalyan Alliance (Filipino student organization) and their initiatives. 0 681 Student and Professional Staff Carreon remembers her relationship with CSUSM employees, including Floyd Lai and Shannon Nolan. Carreon recounts assisting with program development, and recalls helping student programmers the most, particularly with event set-up and overall organization. As a previous programmer herself, Carreon was able to mentor several incoming programmers at the CCC. 0 809 Programs at the CCC Carreon recalls the different programs that the Cross-Culutral Center has offered. From her first two Social Justice Summits, to the Activist Lab, Daniela was engaged with several forms of activism and advocacy at CSUSM. Within these programs, she recalls the politically engaging conversations which considered such topics as anti-Blackness, white supremacy, and what abolitionism truly looks like. Overall, the CCC provided Carreon the ability to engage with other student activists. 0 1133 Favorite Memories and Political Unlearning Carreon recalls some of her favorite memories during her work at the Cross-Cultural Center. In particular, Carreon enjoyed getting one her friends memorialized with artwork at the CCC. Additionally, De Maria revisits the idea of political unlearning and what that meant for Carreon. Carreon recalls that the CCC provided the space to engage with conversations about gentrification, colonialism, and the intersectionality of feminism. 0 1510 Carreon's Studies at CSUSM Considering the amount of interests she had, Carreon had a hard time finding a major. She initially chose sociology for its adaptability. However once Ethnic Studies was approved as a major at CSUSM, Daniela realized this avenue best fit her intended future work. The experience of taking courses for the major was difficult, yet Carreon was glad to have declared Ethnic Studies as a major. 0 1826 CCC Impacts and Role with Other Organizations De Maria asks Carreon about the overall impacts of the CCC upon her life. Regarding cultural identity, Carreon considers her time at the CCC to have enabled her unapologetic attitude. Additionally, the Carreon considers the CCC's role with other student centers/organizations on campus. 0 2053 Underrepresented Communities at CSUSM Carreon considers currently underrepresented communities at CSUSM, including Indigenous American Indians as well as Asian Pacific Islander Desi American (APIDA) students who rely upon the CCC. Carreon discusses how CSUSM underestimated the extent to which students would engage with identity-based centers. 0 2171 Carreon's Career Ambitions As a doctoral student, Carreon defines her work and her future ambitions. This includes her research upon the impacts of trauma, specifically among Latinas. Through this work, she considers the idea of embracing joy even through traumatic moments. She hopes to continue this profound work and because of her experience at CSUSM, she would choose to apply in the future. Additionally, De Maria inquires about the challenges of utilizing quantitative data while maintaining humanistic qualities in research.&#13 ; 0 2617 Wrapping Up with Important Lessons Carreon discusses her biggest takeaways from her experience working with the Cross-Cultural Center. Carreon also realized her ability to disengage from potentially harmful conversations. Daniela expresses gratitude to the CCC for reinforcing the ability to walk away from difficult conversations. 0 Daniela Carreon is alumna of California State University San Marcos, where she worked with the Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) and other student organizations such as MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan). In this interview, Daniela discusses her involvement with the CCC, campus changes, and her current work &amp ; goals as a sociology PhD student. De Maria: Alright. My name is Michael De Maria. I am a graduate research assistant at Kellogg Library at CSU (California State University) San Marcos. And today I'm interviewing Daniela Carreon about her involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center as a student staff member and a student on campus at CSU San Marcos. So, Daniela first off, I just wanted you to tell me a little bit about your upbringing, your background. I wanted you to tell me about your community that you were brought up in and a little bit about your childhood. Carreon: Okay. So, I grew up in Escondido, which is a very heavily populated Latino, Latinx community and an immigrant community. And so, sorry (laughs). So, yeah. But I went to school in Encinitas, and so Encinitas is probably about a thirty-minute drive, adjacent city. It's probably, yeah so it's a definitely more affluent and White community. And so, growing up in two cities, right, because I went to school in Encinitas but I was, my home life was in Escondido, I was often brought into like two different worlds. And not really knowing how to navigate either. And so yeah (laughs). De Maria: Perfect. And what would you describe those two worlds as in terms of characterization? Carreon: So, as far as characterization. Sorry (laughs). So, both worlds were definitely very different. As far as growing up in Escondido, I would characterize it as more low income, more people of color, more sense of community. And I'm thinking of community as far as like Latino-based, you know, community places. Specifically like, grocery stores or churches or just like where there's a higher population of Latinos. Whereas in Encinitas it was whiteness all throughout. There were pockets of like Latino people, but very, very small. And so I would characterize going to school in Encinitas as a lot more--I had to really integrate myself into the education system. I always had to behave. I also had to just, it almost felt like I was--I was often the only student of color, the only Latina Chicana Mexican woman, or a little girl in the class. And so, I think I felt the need to present myself to be the model for my community. So that is a lot of pressure for someone (laughs). And I felt the pressure through like my interactions with students, or even with my teachers, and like higher expectations from teachers who were Mexican. So yeah. De Maria: Got it. That is definitely really profound to deal with at a young age, for sure. So regarding your experience in those different communities, what led you to CSUSM (California State University San Marcos)? Carreon: What led me to CSUSM? Actually (I) did not wanna go to Cal State San Marcos (laughs). I also got into Sonoma State and I really wanted to, you know, leave. Because I felt like, okay, I've grown up in this vicinity. And actually my high school was very much--they never took us to Cal State San Marcos. I was an AVID (Advancement Via Individual Determination, college-readiness program) student for, from seventh grade to twelfth grade. They never took us to Cal State San Marcos. I had never even seen the campus until me and my mom drove by it when we, when I like accepted. But before that, I had never been on campus until like, I had to go for summer courses. So yeah, I did not wanna go to Cal State. I felt like it was going to be like high school because I'm going to class and I'm going home. So it was definitely like, how do I differentiate my experience from being just from high school? And so I was going to commit to Sonoma State, and I was trying to figure out my financial aid situation. And, you know I was gonna have to take out a student loan my first semester. (minor background noise) And I remember talking to the financial aid person and I just told her like, what is the population? I'm sorry if you can hear that (background noise). It was just like (laughs). De Maria: Totally fine. You're all good. Carreon: Yeah, so I remember asking her a question like, “What are the demographics of the students?” And during that time, I mean yeah the--you know we didn't have like TikTok, or Instagram wasn't as popularized. Snapchat was there, but not really. So there wasn't a lot of like social media digging that I could do based on the population for the students. I kind of just had to base it from what the website would say. And she told me, “You know a lot of the students here (at Sonoma State) are White, affluent, their, some of their parents own a lot of the wine countries.” And I was like, I don't really wanna be surrounded by whiteness or affluent, you know, people anymore. So, I decided to commit to San Marcos and it ended up being one of the best decisions I made. Not only financially, but I think just in personal growth, so. De Maria: Got it. And once you got to CSUSM, how did you become aware of and involved with the Cross-Cultural Center? Carreon: Yeah. So, in GEL (General Education for first-year students) like I don't remember what it stands for (laughs) but it's one of the introductory courses. I was an EOP (Education Opportunity Program) student as well, so I think that helped. But in the EOP class we had to, one of our assignments through GEL it was EOP (and) GEL together. We had to like, find a campus resource center or whatever and interview someone who worked there. So, I had emailed Floyd (Lai ; Director of the Cross-Cultural Center, 2011-2023) and he doesn't remember, but I did interview him like my first semester. And I think that was like my first integration to the Cross-Cultural Center. And also, I was also involved in MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan). So I think that was also one of the ways that I was able to be involved. And Floyd had reached out, I think to our MEChA co-chairs and for the peer mentoring program for summer 2015, to be a mentor to incoming freshmen. So, I did that. And then through that Lloyd, I think SLL, which was Student Life and Leadership which is now SLIC (Student Leadership &amp ; Involvement Center). And C3 or Cross-Cultural Center, like were together (laughs). So, they were hiring for the fall 2015 semester. So, I applied as social media slash administration. So yeah, (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. And could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you first started engaging with it and working for (inaudible interruption). Carreon: Yeah so, oh wait, when I first started to, like, what was it-- De Maria: Like when you first started to engage and work for the org? Carreon: Yeah. When I first started to engage for the Cross-Cultural Center it was definitely I think more, we didn't have like specific programs as far as like there was no Critical Cougars or Defining Diaspora or Activist Lab (programs and spaces within the Cross-Cultural Center). I think it was more so our general interests. And I wasn't a programming person, so I didn't--I wasn't really involved in that. My role was just like social media and administration. And so, what I did through social media was kind of just posting things that fell along the mission of the Cross-Cultural Center and more like educational based images. And I think that was also just my own--I did it because I was also in this like political learning and unlearning through myself. So I think I used the Cross-Cultural Center as an outlet and also to educate others. De Maria: Yeah, for sure. And you've mentioned your involvement in MEChA already so, I wanted to just ask you what the relationships were like between on-campus organizations at that time. Especially the Cross-Cultural Center's relationship to other student advocacy groups like MEChA or the Black Student Union. Carreon: Yeah, yeah. We did work, I think with also KA, Kamalyan Alliance (Filipino &amp ; Filipino-American student organization). I think a lot of it was supporting them in their own initiatives of like what they wanted to do for campus. So whether it was, like our high school conference, I remember Floyd would let us use the Cross-Cultural Center to like put all of our things (inside) before like campus events. Afterwards, this was probably like two or three years afterwards, campus events (Events and Conference Services) let us use like their stuff, or how to lock up our things. And like printing, I think also like just like some funding if possible. And also just being kind of like an advocate for when or how we would've planned things. I think during that time Floyd was like the Multicultural (Programs) Students, like Rep(resentative). So I think there was a good sense of like alliance or community I think now has switched over, or at least it's switched over I think later on (laughs). To like, I think someone in SLL. So, yeah. De Maria: I see. Very cool. And student staff have often been mentioned as sort of like a catalyst behind the Cross-Cultural Center's general success. So I just wanted to know what your relationship was like between you and your superiors? Carreon: Student staff, or do you mean like pro staff (professional non-student employees) Or-- De Maria: Or both. Excuse me. Carreon: Oh, my relationship with pro staff I think was good (laughs). They made, I think I interacted the most with like Floyd and whoever was in that office next to him. So whether it was the graduate assistant, or later it was (professor) Shannon Nolan who, I don't remember her exact position. But she worked a lot with TLC, Tukwut Leadership Circle (CSUSM engagement program). And then, you know, we would cross over with like SLL professionals, but it was rare to have one-on-one meetings with them. I think when I was more so a graduate assistant, I worked more closely with the director of the Latino (Latin /X) Center and the Black Student Center, and the Pride Center, I think that was more aligned (laughs). And, you know, working together looked like being on committees together, program development, also working with their graduate assistants. And then working at least with like student staff was always a relatively good experience. I think we always try to help each other out in whatever avenue. I think it was, I think programmers always need the most amount of help (laughs) especially with like setting up, taking down, like publicizing, practicing you know their PowerPoint (presentation program) or asking how they should outline it. So, I was a programmer for two years, so, afterwards a lot of incoming or newer programmers would come to me to see what I would do, or how I would structure things. So I think just more so looking for advice or validation. De Maria: Very cool. And one thing you've touched on multiple times is obviously the importance of those programs as a way that (the) Cross-Cultural Center really got out to students and kind of affected people's lives. Regarding those programs, did you have any involvement with the Cross-Cultural Summit as well as Café La Paz? Those are two programs which seem to have been coming up quite frequently in my previous interviews, so I— (Carreon interrupts ; two speakers) Carreon: Yeah you said, you said Social Justice Summit (diversity and activism event at CSUSM)? De Maria: Yes. Carreon: Yes. Social Justice Summit. I went to, to the Social Justice Summit when I was a freshman. So, that was also I guess my introduction to Floyd (laughs). So that was like fall 2014. And then I think I was a facilitator fall 2016, and either 2019 or 2018. So I was a facilitator for like two different periods. I'd never experienced Café La Paz (laugh). De Maria: Okay. Got it. Cool. And what were some instances of activism that you observed from the Cross-Cultural Center during the time that you were there? And I know that you were, you know serving positions as both an undergraduate and a graduate assistant as well. Carreon: Mm-hmm. De Maria: But yeah, if you could just take me through some initiatives that you guys launched or maybe some moments of activism you felt were pretty memorable. Carreon: Mm-Hmm. Trying to think. So moments of activism. Well, I mean the Activist Lab was really a kickstart to our, us being intentional of like having activist programs. And I think that came from the rise of like the Black Lives Matter movement and just what was going on politically. Also with like DACA (Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals), Trump being (in) administration and like more and more people being involved or wanting to be involved in community. So, I know we had like a Know Your Rights (political advocacy presentation) session and I know we had different like avenues of how to be an activist, cause it doesn't always have to be like out in the streets. I think some of the other initiatives of activism, or at least like intentional activism that I would say, is during the covid pandemic there was, we couldn't do Social Justice Summit. And so it was like, when was this fall twenty, fall 2020? Yeah. ‘Cause I graduated Spring 2021. So, I remember during the fall semester I really wanted to do something called Social Justice Scholars (CSUSM undergraduate social justice program). So (laughs), it was, for me it was more of an intentional group of like eight to ten students. And we were going to have conversations that kind of delved in a little deeper. Like, topics like what does it mean to defund the police? What does abolition, abolition look like? What is an abolitionist framework? Conversation circling like transphobia and anti-Blackness. And for me I think those conversations gave, or that specific--like Social Justice Scholars, which I think still continues to today, provides students who want to be, who wanna just know more in a safe and brave environment. I never had, I didn't have--well I only did it for a semester (laughs) until I graduated. But I think it allows or gives students a space, and there was nothing else on campus on it during that time. And I think also the conversations that I wanted to talk about are very political in nature (laughs), just like any other program that I put on, a lot of them were very political. So, I think the Cross-Cultural Center steering that was very one political in nature, but also just very quote unquote ahead of its’ times because were-- conversations circling like, what does it mean to defund the police and what does abolition mean? And talking about anti-Blackness as global and white supremacy are things that sometimes are hidden or want to be hidden within academia, or/and especially student affairs (laughs). So, I think those are some of the things. But as far as other avenues of activism, would be just inviting more speakers who have an activist framework. And I think paying speakers obviously as well is within itself doing activist work. De Maria: Absolutely. And those programs sound absolutely incredible (laughs). So very cool that you were involved with those and got to experience them and see firsthand what kind of impact they had. And from there I just wanted to ask you what your favorite memory from the Cross-Cultural Center was? Carreon: Mmmm. My favorite memory? I have a couple. Do I have to choose one? De Maria: You could talk about it, you could talk about a couple. I don't mind. Carreon: Oh, okay (laughs). I think one of the favorite, one of my favorite, I had always told Floyd, we need more we need more like art (laughs) in the space. So I think definitely the mural that's now in the center. It took about almost, it took a long time to do (laughs), but it took about like maybe six months, a semester to really you know, paint everything, have it installed. So I think that was one of the favorite memories. And also having like my friends be a part of it. My friend is actually the one that's like hugging himself, (laughs) and he was never really involved in campus until he met me, so it's kind of funny to see now he's memorialized on the wall forever (laughs). I think one of my also favorite parts was doing Social Justice Scholars. I think it was also my last semester. I was writing my thesis. I think it was very like cathartic healing. Every two weeks we would meet with students and, you know I'm really glad that they were able to connect with us, and also collaborating with the Latino (Latin /X) Center and the Gender Equity Center or the Women and Gender Equity Center. And like Alicia and Laura, because they also like worked, worked on workshops. And what else is my favorite memories? I think like the day-to-day stuff of hanging out with some of my student staff. Those were probably some of my say, good memories. Yeah. (laughs) De Maria: Very fun. And I wanted to go back to something that you mentioned earlier in the, in the interview regarding you kind of mentioned a political unlearning process that you were undertaking during the time that you were at the Cross-cultural Center and that the organization kind of helped you process your way through that. And basically find a sense of enlightenment about it. So I just wanted to ask about that once again, since you have mentioned putting on like political programs and kind of making politics sort of like a focal point of the conversation about social justice. But if you felt comfortable, I'd love to hear a little bit more about what that political unlearning process was like and specifically how the Cross-Cultural Center kind of helped you become aware of it and embark on that journey. Carreon: Yeah. I think my political process of unlearning started with the murder of Mike Brown. So, it was 2014 and I was an incoming freshman. And so, a lot of it was social media at that time, ‘cause I didn't work at the Cross-Cultural Center. So, it was like Twitter and Instagram and Tumblr where I was really in this unlearning phase. And even then I've become a lot more radical in my beliefs. But back then I was eighteen (laughs). So and I was, you know, I was learning. And so it was an adjustment. I think what the Cross-Cultural Center gave me was an outlet to have conversations with people. And I think it's funny because now I'm in my pro--my PhD program in sociology. And I remember always telling Floyd like, “I don't know if I wanna be a professor or if I wanna work like with youth.” Because I was also a middle school AVID tutor during some time I was working at the center. And I think my desire to have critical conversations and help people or advocate for people, listen to people differing opinions of topics is what makes me want to be a sociology professor. And some of my programs, they were all political. I don't think they had to do with like, well they had to do with politics, but it didn't center on politics or policy. I think the first program that I ever did was what it means to be American. But I'm also like, it's been so long (laughs). But I had programs having to do unpacking, like Beyonce's Lemonade album or talking about Kendrick Lamar's album at that time and collaborating with the Black Student Center. I also had programs about gentrification and colonialism, and topics on racism and classism. I also had like the “in” in feminism, like what is like intersection, the intersectionality in feminism. Cause feminism is very, could be very White. So collaborating with like Pride (Center), and I remember I collaborated with the sociology professor at that time as well. So I think my unlearning through the center was topics that I just wanted to talk about (laughs) cause I had my own vested interest in them, but also, who else could I collaborate with? I think that was where the Cross-Cultural Center possibly got more view or more like, “Oh, they're collaborating with other people and like inviting professors and faculty to join us in conversations.” And/or other student organizations and student centers. So. De Maria: For sure. That's awesome. And next I wanted to shift a little bit and actually talk about your studies at CSUSM. I know that you're one of the first graduates of the Ethnic Studies program, so I was interested in hearing more about kind of like the early days of that program and ultimately, you know, how that influenced your current career track and what you're interested in studying. Carreon: Yeah. So I remember it was my EOP, name was Kyle, I think he's at Palomar (College in San Marcos, CA) now. Kyle Owens. Yeah. He, I didn't know what I wanted to do (laughs). I had so many vested interests. I remember I came in as a psych(ology) major and then I changed to poli sci (political science) ‘cause I really was in this unlearning process and I'm like, “I wanna work for the government and change things.” And quickly did I learn, no, I'm just kidding. (laughs). But yeah, quickly did I learn. And then I switched it again and then I was just kind of everywhere. And I remember Kyle Owens told me about like social sciences and how I can have like three degrees in one. And I was like, oh, okay. So my primary focus was sociology. And then my secondary fields are political science and psych. So I had to take a wide variety of classes. And I also decided to minor in Spanish ‘cause I passed the AP exam in high school and I was like, “Oh, I only, I only need four classes. Okay, cool.” And I think I just, I remember I took Dr. (Michelle) Holling communication 485, like Latino Chicano Representation in TV. And that really sparked my interest in wanting to go to grad school. And having her be part of my life and mentorship during that period, that was 2018, fall 2018. And she had told us like, that ethnic studies had been approved through the CSU Chancellor's Office, but it's gonna take a year for it to like, you know, be in place. And during that time I was supposed to graduate. I think it was, I was supposed to, oh no, that was fall 2017 when I took her class. And I was supposed to graduate fall 2018, but I just didn't feel, or spring 2018, and I didn't feel ready to graduate in four years. So that's when I picked up my minor in Spanish. And then I had met with her, and she gave me different courses that would qualify me to be like, that were going to be part of the courses for Ethnic Studies. So, I just started taking extra courses to fulfill the major that still hadn't existed (laughs). So I was taking like five classes. I took a class at Palomar because I had to take Ethnic Studies 101 and SOC (Sociology) 101 already had qualified or, you know fulfilled my other requirements. So it couldn't fulfill this one. So I had to go to Palomar and take Multicultural 101 (laughs) Multicultural Studies 101. And then I took, when did I graduate? Spring 2019. I took seven classes, and a grad course including that one. Just, just for fun (laughs). But really just to fulfill the, the major requirements. And I remember there was a period of time where once the major had been approved December 2018, I was told that I couldn't do it (laughs). Because I had reached, I couldn't declare the major because they said that I had passed the 120 credits or something like that. And I remember talking to Dr. Holling and other people in CHABSS (College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral &amp ; Social Sciences) was like, and I told them, “Well, I've been taking these classes because it fulfills the major” (laughs). So like, why can't--so they did some, some work in the backend and I was able to declare it I think within like two weeks. And then I graduated in the spring semester. So I wish I was--the only ethnic studies course I did take at Cal State San Marcos, like through the Ethnic Studies major was Ethnic Studies 301. So I had already taken Ethnic Studies 101 as Multicultural Studies at Palomar, so I didn't have to take it again. But I wasn't able to take theory or I think at that time they had like three or four other integral, integral classes that students would take. But Dr. Holling was able to just sign off. So. De Maria: I see. So my next set of questions are going to be more about the impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on your life. So a little bit more abstract. But yeah, I just wanted to know how the Cross-Cultural Center ultimately helped you develop and express your cultural identity in the long run? Carreon: Hmm. Express my cultural identity in the long run, you mentioned? Like- De Maria: Yeah. Carreon: I feel like for me, I've never been like super loud about my culture. I just kind of exist (laughs). I think the culture more so is being like outspoken and being, and like asking questions and asking critical questions and sometimes making people feel uncomfortable with my questions or my beliefs or ideas. So I think that's the legacy of like what the Cross-Cultural Center has provided me. And I've, I've gotten better. I remember Floyd always told me I'm not who I was before (laughs). And I think that's the culture that I still lead with, of just like being unapologetically myself. De Maria: Okay, I see. And regarding the Cross-Cultural Center as it is today, what role do you see it playing as it coexists with the expansion of other identity-specific student advocacy orgs? So, like as other organizations expand, I guess like what do you hope to see out of those relationships? What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing in those expansions? Carreon: Mm-Hmm. For me, I think the Cross-Cultural Center has tried to fill in the gaps of CSU’s, CSUSM’s like limitation in student centers. So specifically for like Asian Pacific Islander students, we have like the Defining Diaspora (CSUSM student workshops) and specific programs. But say like, you know, if the--if Cal State San Marcos approves for an Asian Pacific Islander Center, I think the role of the Cross-Cultural Center would shift obviously. But I feel like we have, we, or they have worked hard enough to make themselves a distinction between all the other centers, specifically with like Critical Cougars, the Activist Lab and Academe and Me. So, as of, I mean I haven't been at Cal State for two years. De Maria: Right. Yeah. Carreon: So, I don’t know what the other student centers are doing. But I think that the Cross-Cultural Center, because it's not specifically identity-based, can mold itself to different things. And it's both a, a challenge and an opportunity (laughs) because it's like, what are, what can, what else can we do or how can we do it? But it gives us the space to do it. So. De Maria: Got it. Carreon: I dunno if that answered your question, (laughs). De Maria: No, no it did (laughs). And regarding the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center) and its interaction with the student community, what communities on this, on CSUSM’s campus, do you feel are currently underrepresented? Carreon: I mean, indigenous students, I think they’re still less than 1% of CSUSMs, like total student population. I know that the California Indian Cultural Sovereignty Center, and the American Indian major and I think minor, correct me if I'm wrong, you know they're there. But from my understanding, it's they have and the, oh my gosh, AISA, American Indian Student Alliance. I don't know how like, if they're still present. But that was always a factor of how can we bring in conversations, or how can we connect with more indigenous scholars and students. And obviously the population of Black students is still probably, what, three percent? And also like what is Black faculty or administrators, what is the percentage of that? It’s probably lower. And I mean, I know that the DREAMer Resource Office (programs and services for undocumented students) is still on campus. I'm not sure if they're in the same location. I worked at the DREAMer Resource office for about a year and a half, and it was a--it was small (laughs). So, I think, you know, bigger spaces, I don't think Cal State San Marcos really anticipated for how much student centers, or the need for student centers. But yeah. De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. And next I wanted to talk about a little bit about your current career. So I know that you're currently pursuing a doctorate, and have some aspirations to go into education yourself. But did you wanna also talk about kind of what you hope to achieve in the social justice space with your platform and kind of what some of those aspirations are? Carreon: Yeah. So my career goal (laughs), I guess is, yeah, per- like finish my PhD. I do want to go back to the CSU system. I would love to go back to Southern California. If, you know, Cal State San Marcos is hiring at the time, I will be applying. Or even San Diego State or any other like, you know, nearby college. My research interests right now center among understanding and examining the experiences of Latina women undergoing cancer treatment. And I am really interested in this process of emotions and looking at like joy and grief. And I'm looking and I'm wanting to look at identity adjustments, then identity disruption, and identity development through the process of, of cancer. And then the component of familial and community care, and possibly death and dying. But I'm still working through like the nuances of my project. And so, what I hope to accomplish at least with that--and I don't know what my unit of analysis will be like, whether it's going to be like the cancer patient or if it's going to be more so like the family. But something that I've always wanted to do, and this, it's similar to my work that I did for my master's thesis. cause for my master's thesis, I looked at like the mothering experiences of single immigrant Latina mothers, and like their relationship with their children. And so I'm really into this aspect of like emotions and processing and trauma. I think my next, once I graduate and if I have a book contract, I think my book would really center on emotions and care and like healing from intergenerational trauma or death. So I think that's my component to social justice, especially tapping into this concept of joy. I think sometimes in movements, and this is what I've learned through my unlearning process through like Twitter, is that joy needs to be a constant presence in our lives. In constant oppression and marginalization and racism and homophobia and classism, we still have and will need space to practice joy. And joy doesn't always have to be like this grand thing. And that's kind of what I'm hoping to look at in my project with women undergoing cancer. It's like, did I wake up with no pain? Am I able to, you know, eat my favorite meal? Am I able to enjoy time with my family? I think I'm, I'm thinking of joy as more little things. And I think that's also what social justice movements are now more embracing. Specifically I know like the, the concept of Black joy and reading of articles of within people who are trans, and what does trans joy look like? So I think that's kind of possibly what the conversation will transition into, especially when we have been healing through so much. And I say “we” as like marginalized and minoritized communities, especially during the COVID Pandemic, the Black Lives Matter movement, and all these other things that are going on. And it's like, how do we still, how do we still practice joy? And I think maybe, you know, social media played a tool, especially like TikTok and people dancing on TikTok while there was a COVID pan- like while there was a pandemic and thousands of people were dying, and we still found moments to kind of laugh. So. De Maria: Super, super profound and incredible work it sounds like. I want to know what your biggest challenges are in terms of applying sort of like an academic quantifiable study to certain intense and qualitative topics like joy, death, love, and human experience. Carreon: Your question was, sorry, how do I-- De Maria: How, how do you kind of apply a quantitative study to concepts like that and what are your biggest challenges of doing that? Carreon: Yeah. A quantitative study. Well currently I'm in a survey methods course (laughs). So, I am actually developing a survey to, it's a pre-interview survey just to get like demographic, demographics of my population and using it as a pilot study for my dissertation. But I do wanna ask questions obviously about emotions. And it's really hard, because I am a trained qualitative researcher. So one, I'm not a quant(itative) person. But it's also hard to quantify emotions. I feel like quant, quantitative research often strips the humanity and people's experiences, and just kind of diminishes them just to numbers (laughs). So it's sometimes hard to translate--or translate that I guess. But I know that numbers are important (laughs), right? It's how we get funding. It's how to make it palatable to larger audiences. And so, I'm still trying to figure that out (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. And I was just curious because obviously the role of data and statistics also plays a huge part in social justice itself and trying to understand, you know, quantifiably where injustices are taking place, or how those injustices are manifesting themselves. So, to me it felt like a very one-to-one comparison of using a quantitative study to quantify those emotions that you mentioned in those cancer patients. As well as how some researchers, you know, have to basically fit statistical models to qualitative issues in, you know, underserved communities and things like that. So, just wanted to explore that a little bit ‘cause it was super fascinating. But taking things back to the topic at hand and to kind of wrap up our interview, I just wanted to know what the most important lesson you've taken from your experience with the Cross-Cultural Center was, and kind of how it impacted you. Carreon: You said my most important, sorry? De Maria: Lesson. Carreon: My most important lesson? De Maria: That you've taken. Carreon: Probably to pause before I speak (laughs). And to listen. Oftentimes I have learned that people who have very differing conservative you know, or even like radical opinions just kind of wanna be heard (laughs). Sometimes I am not the person to listen, but I can redirect them to someone who wants to listen. But I think my role within, obviously when I was a student, I mean a student worker there, I would listen. I think, you know, my role now as just someone who would be visiting the center, I could walk away (laughs). But, and even then I can still walk away as, as like now, but also wanting to pursue, you know, a teaching career. It's going, I'm going to get a wide variety of students with different opinions of, of coming to understand sociology. And so, definitely listening and pausing before I speak. I think a tool that I kind of took from Floyd, he would always ask me, “How did you come to that solution?” Or, “What made you think of that? And avoiding the question of, “Why?” And just trying to better understand people. So. De Maria: Awesome. Well, I wanted to thank you for taking some time out today for this interview. I think this is gonna be a great resource for anyone for trying to learn more about the Cross-Cultural Center through the lens of someone who is actually there. So again, this information was indispensable, and I'm really excited to see where your career takes you. And you know, hopefully what you'll be doing for CSUSM in the future to kind of expand the center and hopefully take up even more responsibility for the school. Carreon: Yeah (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. Thanks, Daniela. Carreon: All right. Thank you. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CarreonDaniela_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-06.xml CarreonDaniela_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-06.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Carreon, Daniela. Interview April 6th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Daniela Carreon is alumna of California State University San Marcos, where she worked with the Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) and other student organizations such as MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan). In this interview, Daniela discusses her involvement with the CCC, campus changes, and her current work & goals as a sociology PhD student. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-40 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance California State University San Marcos. Ethnic Studies California State University San Marcos. Events and Conference Services Civil rights Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán Student movements Psychic trauma Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Daniela Carreon Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael De Maria Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Encinitas (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Daniela Carreon Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Latine experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/9da90704cc77e7e9c03910465dfda649.pdf 67d8cd755ed34dd9dac9c25137231b72 PDF Text Text DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 De Maria: Alright. My name is Michael De Maria. I am a graduate research assistant at Kellogg Library at CSU (California State University) San Marcos. And today I'm interviewing Daniela Carreon about her involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center as a student staff member and a student on campus at CSU San Marcos. So, Daniela first off, I just wanted you to tell me a little bit about your upbringing, your background. I wanted you to tell me about your community that you were brought-up in and a little bit about your childhood. Carreon: Okay. So, I grew up in Escondido, which is a very heavily populated Latino, Latinx community and an immigrant community. And so, sorry (laughs). So, yeah. But I went to school in Encinitas, and so Encinitas is probably about a thirty-minute drive, adjacent city. It's probably, yeah so it's a definitely more affluent and White community. And so, growing up in two cities, right, because I went to school in Encinitas but I was, my home life was in Escondido, I was often brought into like two different worlds. And not really knowing how to navigate either. And so yeah (laughs). De Maria: Perfect. And what would you describe those two worlds as in terms of characterization? Carreon: So, as far as characterization. Sorry (laughs). So, both worlds were definitely very different. As far as growing up in Escondido, I would characterize it as more low income, more people of color, more sense of community. And I'm thinking of community as far as like Latino-based, you know, community places. Specifically like, grocery stores or churches or just like where there's a higher population of Latinos. Whereas in Encinitas it was whiteness all throughout. There were pockets of like Latino people, but very, very small. And so I would characterize going to school in Encinitas as a lot more--I had to really integrate myself into the education system. I always had to behave. I also had to just, it almost felt like I was--I was often the only student of color, the only Latina Chicana Mexican woman, or a little girl in the class. And so, I think I felt the need to present myself to be the model for my community. So that is a lot of pressure for someone (laughs). And I felt the pressure through like my interactions with students, or even with my teachers, and like higher expectations from teachers who were Mexican. So yeah. De Maria: Got it. That is definitely really profound to deal with at a young age, for sure. So regarding your experience in those different communities, what led you to CSUSM (California State University San Marcos)? Carreon: What led me to CSUSM? Actually (I) did not wanna go to Cal State San Marcos (laughs). I also got into Sonoma State and I really wanted to, you know, leave. Because I felt like, okay, I've grown up in this vicinity. And actually my high school was very much--they never took us to Cal State San Marcos. I was an AVID (Advancement Via Individual Determination, college-readiness program) student for, from seventh grade to twelfth grade. They never took us to Cal State San Marcos. I had never even seen the campus until me and my mom drove by it when we, when I like accepted. But before that, I had never been on campus until like, I had to go for summer courses. So yeah, I did not wanna go to Cal State. I felt like it was going to be like high school because I'm going to class and I'm going home. So it was definitely like, how do I differentiate my experience from being just from high school? And so I was going to commit to Sonoma State, and I was trying to figure out my financial aid situation. And, you know I was gonna have to take out a student loan my first semester. (minor background noise) And I remember talking to the financial aid person and I just told her like, what is the population? I'm sorry if you can hear that (background noise). It was just like (laughs). De Maria: Totally fine. You're all good. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 Carreon: Yeah, so I remember asking her a question like, “What are the demographics of the students?” And during that time, I mean yeah the--you know we didn't have like TikTok, or Instagram wasn't as popularized. Snapchat was there, but not really. So there wasn't a lot of like social media digging that I could do based on the population for the students. I kind of just had to base it from what the website would say. And she told me, “You know a lot of the students here (at Sonoma State) are White, affluent, their, some of their parents own a lot of the wine countries.” And I was like, I don't really wanna be surrounded by whiteness or affluent, you know, people anymore. So, I decided to commit to San Marcos and it ended up being one of the best decisions I made. Not only financially, but I think just in personal growth, so. De Maria: Got it. And once you got to CSUSM, how did you become aware of and involved with the Cross-Cultural Center? Carreon: Yeah. So, in GEL (General Education for first-year students) like I don't remember what it stands for (laughs) but it's one of the introductory courses. I was an EOP (Education Opportunity Program) student as well, so I think that helped. But in the EOP class we had to, one of our assignments through GEL it was EOP (and) GEL together. We had to like, find a campus resource center or whatever and interview someone who worked there. So, I had emailed Floyd (Lai; Director of the Cross-Cultural Center, 2011-2023) and he doesn't remember, but I did interview him like my first semester. And I think that was like my first integration to the Cross-Cultural Center. And also, I was also involved in MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan). So I think that was also one of the ways that I was able to be involved. And Floyd had reached out, I think to our MEChA co-chairs and for the peer mentoring program for summer 2015, to be a mentor to incoming freshmen. So, I did that. And then through that Lloyd, I think SLL, which was Student Life and Leadership which is now SLIC (Student Leadership & Involvement Center). And C3 or Cross-Cultural Center, like were together (laughs). So, they were hiring for the fall 2015 semester. So, I applied as social media slash administration. So yeah, (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. And could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you first started engaging with it and working for (inaudible interruption). Carreon: Yeah so, oh wait, when I first started to, like, what was it-De Maria: Like when you first started to engage and work for the org? Carreon: Yeah. When I first started to engage for the Cross-Cultural Center it was definitely I think more, we didn't have like specific programs as far as like there was no Critical Cougars or Defining Diaspora or Activist Lab (programs and spaces within the Cross-Cultural Center). I think it was more so our general interests. And I wasn't a programming person, so I didn't--I wasn't really involved in that. My role was just like social media and administration. And so, what I did through social media was kind of just posting things that fell along the mission of the Cross-Cultural Center and more like educational based images. And I think that was also just my own--I did it because I was also in this like political learning and unlearning through myself. So I think I used the Cross-Cultural Center as an outlet and also to educate others. De Maria: Yeah, for sure. And you've mentioned your involvement in MEChA already so, I wanted to just ask you what the relationships were like between on-campus organizations at that time. Especially the Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 Cross-Cultural Center's relationship to other student advocacy groups like MEChA or the Black Student Union. Carreon: Yeah, yeah. We did work, I think with also KA, Kamalyan Alliance (Filipino & Filipino-American student organization). I think a lot of it was supporting them in their own initiatives of like what they wanted to do for campus. So whether it was, like our high school conference, I remember Floyd would let us use the Cross-Cultural Center to like put all of our things (inside) before like campus events. Afterwards, this was probably like two or three years afterwards, campus events (Events and Conference Services) let us use like their stuff, or how to lock up our things. And like printing, I think also like just like some funding if possible. And also just being kind of like an advocate for when or how we would've planned things. I think during that time Floyd was like the Multicultural (Programs) Students, like Rep(resentative). So I think there was a good sense of like alliance or community I think now has switched over, or at least it's switched over I think later on (laughs). To like, I think someone in SLL. So, yeah. De Maria: I see. Very cool. And student staff have often been mentioned as sort of like a catalyst behind the Cross-Cultural Center's general success. So I just wanted to know what your relationship was like between you and your superiors? Carreon: Student staff, or do you mean like pro staff (professional non-student employees) OrDe Maria: Or both. Excuse me. Carreon: Oh, my relationship with pro staff I think was good (laughs). They made, I think I interacted the most with like Floyd and whoever was in that office next to him. So whether it was the graduate assistant, or later it was (professor) Shannon Nolan who, I don't remember her exact position. But she worked a lot with TLC, Tukwut Leadership Circle (CSUSM engagement program). And then, you know, we would cross over with like SLL professionals, but it was rare to have one-on-one meetings with them. I think when I was more so a graduate assistant, I worked more closely with the director of the Latino (Latin@/X) Center and the Black Student Center, and the Pride Center, I think that was more aligned (laughs). And, you know, working together looked like being on committees together, program development, also working with their graduate assistants. And then working at least with like student staff was always a relatively good experience. I think we always try to help each other out in whatever avenue. I think it was, I think programmers always need the most amount of help (laughs) especially with like setting up, taking down, like publicizing, practicing you know their PowerPoint (presentation program) or asking how they should outline it. So, I was a programmer for two years, so, afterwards a lot of incoming or newer programmers would come to me to see what I would do, or how I would structure things. So I think just more so looking for advice or validation. De Maria: Very cool. And one thing you've touched on multiple times is obviously the importance of those programs as a way that (the) Cross-Cultural Center really got out to students and kind of affected people's lives. Regarding those programs, did you have any involvement with the Cross-Cultural Summit as well as Café La Paz? Those are two programs which seem to have been coming up quite frequently in my previous interviews, so I—(Carreon interrupts; two speakers) Carreon: Yeah you said, you said Social Justice Summit (diversity and activism event at CSUSM)? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 3 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 De Maria: Yes. Carreon: Yes. Social Justice Summit. I went to, to the Social Justice Summit when I was a freshman. So, that was also I guess my introduction to Floyd (laughs). So that was like fall 2014. And then I think I was a facilitator fall 2016, and either 2019 or 2018. So I was a facilitator for like two different periods. I'd never experienced Café La Paz (laugh). De Maria: Okay. Got it. Cool. And what were some instances of activism that you observed from the Cross-Cultural Center during the time that you were there? And I know that you were, you know serving positions as both an undergraduate and a graduate assistant as well. Carreon: Mm-hmm. De Maria: But yeah, if you could just take me through some initiatives that you guys launched or maybe some moments of activism you felt were pretty memorable. Carreon: Mm-Hmm. Trying to think. So moments of activism. Well, I mean the Activist Lab was really a kickstart to our, us being intentional of like having activist programs. And I think that came from the rise of like the Black Lives Matter movement and just what was going on politically. Also with like DACA (Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals), Trump being (in) administration and like more and more people being involved or wanting to be involved in community. So, I know we had like a Know Your Rights (political advocacy presentation) session and I know we had different like avenues of how to be an activist, cause it doesn't always have to be like out in the streets. I think some of the other initiatives of activism, or at least like intentional activism that I would say, is during the covid pandemic there was, we couldn't do Social Justice Summit. And so it was like, when was this fall twenty, fall 2020? Yeah. ‘Cause I graduated Spring 2021. So, I remember during the fall semester I really wanted to do something called Social Justice Scholars (CSUSM undergraduate social justice program). So (laughs), it was, for me it was more of an intentional group of like eight to ten students. And we were going to have conversations that kind of delved in a little deeper. Like, topics like what does it mean to defund the police? What does abolition, abolition look like? What is an abolitionist framework? Conversation circling like transphobia and anti-Blackness. And for me I think those conversations gave, or that specific--like Social Justice Scholars, which I think still continues to today, provides students who want to be, who wanna just know more in a safe and brave environment. I never had, I didn't have--well I only did it for a semester (laughs) until I graduated. But I think it allows or gives students a space, and there was nothing else on campus on it during that time. And I think also the conversations that I wanted to talk about are very political in nature (laughs), just like any other program that I put on, a lot of them were very political. So, I think the Cross-Cultural Center steering that was very one political in nature, but also just very quote unquote ahead of its’ times because were-- conversations circling like, what does it mean to defund the police and what does abolition mean? And talking about anti-Blackness as global and white supremacy are things that sometimes are hidden or want to be hidden within academia, or/and especially student affairs (laughs). So, I think those are some of the things. But as far as other avenues of activism, would be just inviting more speakers who have an activist framework. And I think paying speakers obviously as well is within itself doing activist work. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 4 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 De Maria: Absolutely. And those programs sound absolutely incredible (laughs). So very cool that you were involved with those and got to experience them and see firsthand what kind of impact they had. And from there I just wanted to ask you what your favorite memory from the Cross-Cultural Center was? Carreon: Mmmm. My favorite memory? I have a couple. Do I have to choose one? De Maria: You could talk about it, you could talk about a couple. I don't mind. Carreon: Oh, okay (laughs). I think one of the favorite, one of my favorite, I had always told Floyd, we need more we need more like art (laughs) in the space. So I think definitely the mural that's now in the center. It took about almost, it took a long time to do (laughs), but it took about like maybe six months, a semester to really you know, paint everything, have it installed. So I think that was one of the favorite memories. And also having like my friends be a part of it. My friend is actually the one that's like hugging himself, (laughs) and he was never really involved in campus until he met me, so it's kind of funny to see now he's memorialized on the wall forever (laughs). I think one of my also favorite parts was doing Social Justice Scholars. I think it was also my last semester. I was writing my thesis. I think it was very like cathartic healing. Every two weeks we would meet with students and, you know I'm really glad that they were able to connect with us, and also collaborating with the Latino (Latin@/X) Center and the Gender Equity Center or the Women and Gender Equity Center. And like Alicia and Laura, because they also like worked, worked on workshops. And what else is my favorite memories? I think like the day-to-day stuff of hanging out with some of my student staff. Those were probably some of my say, good memories. Yeah, (laughs) De Maria: Very fun. And I wanted to go back to something that you mentioned earlier in the, in the interview regarding you kind of mentioned a political unlearning process that you were undertaking during the time that you were at the Cross-cultural Center and that the organization kind of helped you process your way through that. And basically find a sense of enlightenment about it. So I just wanted to ask about that once again, since you have mentioned putting on like political programs and kind of making politics sort of like a focal point of the conversation about social justice. But if you felt comfortable, I'd love to hear a little bit more about what that political unlearning process was like and specifically how the Cross-Cultural Center kind of helped you become aware of it and embark on that journey. Carreon: Yeah. I think my political process of unlearning started with the murder of Mike Brown. So, it was 2014 and I was an incoming freshman. And so, a lot of it was social media at that time, ‘cause I didn't work at the Cross-Cultural Center. So, it was like Twitter and Instagram and Tumblr where I was really in this unlearning phase. And even then I've become a lot more radical in my beliefs. But back then I was eighteen (laughs). So and I was, you know, I was learning. And so it was an adjustment. I think what the Cross-Cultural Center gave me was an outlet to have conversations with people. And I think it's funny because now I'm in my pro--my PhD program in sociology. And I remember always telling Floyd like, “I don't know if I wanna be a professor or if I wanna work like with youth.” Because I was also a middle school AVID tutor during some time I was working at the center. And I think my desire to have critical conversations and help people or advocate for people, listen to people differing opinions of topics is what makes me want to be a sociology professor. And some of my programs, they were all political. I don't think they had to do with like, well they had to do with politics, but it didn't center on politics or policy. I think the first program that I ever did was what it means to be American. But I'm also like, it's been so long (laughs). But I had programs having to do unpacking, like Beyonce's Lemonade Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 album or talking about Kendrick Lamar's album at that time and collaborating with the Black Student Center. I also had programs about gentrification and colonialism, and topics on racism and classism. I also had like the “in” in feminism, like what is like intersection, the intersectionality in feminism. Cause feminism is very, could be very White. So collaborating with like Pride (Center), and I remember I collaborated with the sociology professor at that time as well. So I think my unlearning through the center was topics that I just wanted to talk about (laughs) cause I had my own vested interest in them, but also, who else could I collaborate with? I think that was where the Cross-Cultural Center possibly got more view or more like, “Oh, they're collaborating with other people and like inviting professors and faculty to join us in conversations.” And/or other student organizations and student centers. So. De Maria: For sure. That's awesome. And next I wanted to shift a little bit and actually talk about your studies at CSUSM. I know that you're one of the first graduates of the Ethnic Studies program, so I was interested in hearing more about kind of like the early days of that program and ultimately, you know, how that influenced your current career track and what you're interested in studying. Carreon: Yeah. So I remember it was my EOP, name was Kyle, I think he's at Palomar (College in San Marcos, CA) now. Kyle Owens. Yeah. He, I didn't know what I wanted to do (laughs). I had so many vested interests. I remember I came in as a psych(ology) major and then I changed to poli sci (political science) ‘cause I really was in this unlearning process and I'm like, “I wanna work for the government and change things.” And quickly did I learn, no, I'm just kidding. (laughs). But yeah, quickly did I learn. And then I switched it again and then I was just kind of everywhere. And I remember Kyle Owens told me about like social sciences and how I can have like three degrees in one. And I was like, oh, okay. So my primary focus was sociology. And then my secondary fields are political science and psych. So I had to take a wide variety of classes. And I also decided to minor in Spanish ‘cause I passed the AP exam in high school and I was like, “Oh, I only, I only need four classes. Okay, cool.” And I think I just, I remember I took Dr. (Michelle) Holling communication 485, like Latino Chicano Representation in TV. And that really sparked my interest in wanting to go to grad school. And having her be part of my life and mentorship during that period, that was 2018, fall 2018. And she had told us like, that ethnic studies had been approved through the CSU Chancellor's Office, but it's gonna take a year for it to like, you know, be in place. And during that time I was supposed to graduate. I think it was, I was supposed to, oh no, that was fall 2017 when I took her class. And I was supposed to graduate fall 2018, but I just didn't feel, or spring 2018, and I didn't feel ready to graduate in four years. So that's when I picked up my minor in Spanish. And then I had met with her, and she gave me different courses that would qualify me to be like, that were going to be part of the courses for Ethnic Studies. So, I just started taking extra courses to fulfill the major that still hadn't existed (laughs). So I was taking like five classes. I took a class at Palomar because I had to take Ethnic Studies 101 and SOC (Sociology) 101 already had qualified or, you know fulfilled my other requirements. So it couldn't fulfill this one. So I had to go to Palomar and take Multicultural 101 (laughs) Multicultural Studies 101. And then I took, when did I graduate? Spring 2019. I took seven classes, and a grad course including that one. Just, just for fun (laughs). But really just to fulfill the, the major requirements. And I remember there was a period of time where once the major had been approved December 2018, I was told that I couldn't do it (laughs). Because I had reached, I couldn't declare the major because they said that I had passed the 120 credits or something like that. And I remember talking to Dr. Holling and other people in CHABSS (College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral & Social Sciences) was like, and I told them, “Well, I've been taking these classes because it fulfills the major” (laughs). So like, why can't--so they did some, some work in the backend and I was able to declare it I think within like two weeks. And then I graduated in the spring semester. So I wish I was--the only ethnic studies course I did take at Cal State San Marcos, like through the Ethnic Studies Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 major was Ethnic Studies 301. So I had already taken Ethnic Studies 101 as Multicultural Studies at Palomar, so I didn't have to take it again. But I wasn't able to take theory or I think at that time they had like three or four other integral, integral classes that students would take. But Dr. Holling was able to just sign off. So. De Maria: I see. So my next set of questions are going to be more about the impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on your life. So a little bit more abstract. But yeah, I just wanted to know how the Cross-Cultural Center ultimately helped you develop and express your cultural identity in the long run? Carreon: Hmm. Express my cultural identity in the long run, you mentioned? LikeDe Maria: Yeah. Carreon: I feel like for me, I've never been like super loud about my culture. I just kind of exist (laughs). I think the culture more so is being like outspoken and being, and like asking questions and asking critical questions and sometimes making people feel uncomfortable with my questions or my beliefs or ideas. So I think that's the legacy of like what the Cross-Cultural Center has provided me. And I've, I've gotten better. I remember Floyd always told me I'm not who I was before (laughs). And I think that's the culture that I still lead with, of just like being unapologetically myself. De Maria: Okay, I see. And regarding the Cross-Cultural Center as it is today, what role do you see it playing as it coexists with the expansion of other identity-specific student advocacy orgs? So, like as other organizations expand, I guess like what do you hope to see out of those relationships? What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing in those expansions? Carreon: Mm-Hmm. For me, I think the Cross-Cultural Center has tried to fill in the gaps of CSU’s, CSUSM’s like limitation in student centers. So specifically for like Asian Pacific Islander students, we have like the Defining Diaspora (CSUSM student workshops) and specific programs. But say like, you know, if the--if Cal State San Marcos approves for an Asian Pacific Islander Center, I think the role of the CrossCultural Center would shift obviously. But I feel like we have, we, or they have worked hard enough to make themselves a distinction between all the other centers, specifically with like Critical Cougars, the Activist Lab and Academe and Me. So, as of, I mean I haven't been at Cal State for two years. De Maria: Right. Yeah. Carreon: So, I don’t know what the other student centers are doing. But I think that the Cross-Cultural Center, because it's not specifically identity-based, can mold itself to different things. And it's both a, a challenge and an opportunity (laughs) because it's like, what are, what can, what else can we do or how can we do it? But it gives us the space to do it. So. De Maria: Got it. Carreon: I dunno if that answered your question, (laughs). De Maria: No, no it did (laughs). And regarding the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center) and its interaction with the student community, what communities on this, on CSUSM’s campus, do you feel are currently underrepresented? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 Carreon: I mean, indigenous students, I think they’re still less than 1% of CSUSMs, like total student population. I know that the California Indian Cultural Sovereignty Center, and the American Indian major and I think minor, correct me if I'm wrong, you know they're there. But from my understanding, it's they have and the, oh my gosh, AISA, American Indian Student Alliance. I don't know how like, if they're still present. But that was always a factor of how can we bring in conversations, or how can we connect with more indigenous scholars and students. And obviously the population of Black students is still probably, what, three percent? And also like what is Black faculty or administrators, what is the percentage of that? It’s probably lower. And I mean, I know that the DREAMer Resource Office (programs and services for undocumented students) is still on campus. I'm not sure if they're in the same location. I worked at the DREAMer Resource office for about a year and a half, and it was a--it was small (laughs). So, I think, you know, bigger spaces, I don't think Cal State San Marcos really anticipated for how much student centers, or the need for student centers. But yeah. De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. And next I wanted to talk about a little bit about your current career. So I know that you're currently pursuing a doctorate, and have some aspirations to go into education yourself. But did you wanna also talk about kind of what you hope to achieve in the social justice space with your platform and kind of what some of those aspirations are? Carreon: Yeah. So my career goal (laughs), I guess is, yeah, per- like finish my PhD. I do want to go back to the CSU system. I would love to go back to Southern California. If, you know, Cal State San Marcos is hiring at the time, I will be applying. Or even San Diego State or any other like, you know, nearby college. My research interests right now center among understanding and examining the experiences of Latina women undergoing cancer treatment. And I am really interested in this process of emotions and looking at like joy and grief. And I'm looking and I'm wanting to look at identity adjustments, then identity disruption, and identity development through the process of, of cancer. And then the component of familial and community care, and possibly death and dying. But I'm still working through like the nuances of my project. And so, what I hope to accomplish at least with that--and I don't know what my unit of analysis will be like, whether it's going to be like the cancer patient or if it's going to be more so like the family. But something that I've always wanted to do, and this, it's similar to my work that I did for my master's thesis. cause for my master's thesis, I looked at like the mothering experiences of single immigrant Latina mothers, and like their relationship with their children. And so I'm really into this aspect of like emotions and processing and trauma. I think my next, once I graduate and if I have a book contract, I think my book would really center on emotions and care and like healing from intergenerational trauma or death. So I think that's my component to social justice, especially tapping into this concept of joy. I think sometimes in movements, and this is what I've learned through my unlearning process through like Twitter, is that joy needs to be a constant presence in our lives. In constant oppression and marginalization and racism and homophobia and classism, we still have and will need space to practice joy. And joy doesn't always have to be like this grand thing. And that's kind of what I'm hoping to look at in my project with women undergoing cancer. It's like, did I wake up with no pain? Am I able to, you know, eat my favorite meal? Am I able to enjoy time with my family? I think I'm, I'm thinking of joy as more little things. And I think that's also what social justice movements are now more embracing. Specifically I know like the, the concept of Black joy and reading of articles of within people who are trans, and what does trans joy look like? So I think that's kind of possibly what the conversation will transition into, especially when we have been healing through so much. And I say “we” as like Transcribed by Aaron Williams 8 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 marginalized and minoritized communities, especially during the COVID Pandemic, the Black Lives Matter movement, and all these other things that are going on. And it's like, how do we still, how do we still practice joy? And I think maybe, you know, social media played a tool, especially like TikTok and people dancing on TikTok while there was a COVID pan- like while there was a pandemic and thousands of people were dying, and we still found moments to kind of laugh. So. De Maria: Super, super profound and incredible work it sounds like. I want to know what your biggest challenges are in terms of applying sort of like an academic quantifiable study to certain intense and qualitative topics like joy, death, love, and human experience. Carreon: Your question was, sorry, how do I-De Maria: How, how do you kind of apply a quantitative study to concepts like that and what are your biggest challenges of doing that? Carreon: Yeah. A quantitative study. Well currently I'm in a survey methods course (laughs). So, I am actually developing a survey to, it's a pre-interview survey just to get like demographic, demographics of my population and using it as a pilot study for my dissertation. But I do wanna ask questions obviously about emotions. And it's really hard, because I am a trained qualitative researcher. So one, I'm not a quant(itative) person. But it's also hard to quantify emotions. I feel like quant, quantitative research often strips the humanity and people's experiences, and just kind of diminishes them just to numbers (laughs). So it's sometimes hard to translate--or translate that I guess. But I know that numbers are important (laughs), right? It's how we get funding. It's how to make it palatable to larger audiences. And so, I'm still trying to figure that out (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. And I was just curious because obviously the role of data and statistics also plays a huge part in social justice itself and trying to understand, you know, quantifiably where injustices are taking place, or how those injustices are manifesting themselves. So, to me it felt like a very one-to-one comparison of using a quantitative study to quantify those emotions that you mentioned in those cancer patients. As well as how some researchers, you know, have to basically fit statistical models to qualitative issues in, you know, underserved communities and things like that. So, just wanted to explore that a little bit ‘cause it was super fascinating. But taking things back to the topic at hand and to kind of wrap up our interview, I just wanted to know what the most important lesson you've taken from your experience with the Cross-Cultural Center was, and kind of how it impacted you. Carreon: You said my most important, sorry? De Maria: Lesson. Carreon: My most important lesson? De Maria: That you've taken. Carreon: Probably to, pause before I speak (laughs). And to listen. Oftentimes I have learned that people who have very differing conservative you know, or even like radical opinions just kind of wanna be heard (laughs). Sometimes I am not the person to listen, but I can redirect them to someone who wants to listen. But I think my role within, obviously when I was a student, I mean a student worker there, I would Transcribed by Aaron Williams 9 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 listen. I think, you know, my role now as just someone who would be visiting the center, I could walk away (laughs). But, and even then I can still walk away as, as like now, but also wanting to pursue, you know, a teaching career. It's going, I'm going to get a wide variety of students with different opinions of, of coming to understand sociology. And so, definitely listening and pausing before I speak. I think a tool that I kind of took from Floyd, he would always ask me, “How did you come to that solution?” Or, “What made you think of that? And avoiding the question of, “Why?” And just trying to better understand people. So. De Maria: Awesome. Well, I wanted to thank you for taking some time out today for this interview. I think this is gonna be a great resource for anyone for trying to learn more about the Cross-Cultural Center through the lens of someone who is actually there. So again, this information was indispensable, and I'm really excited to see where your career takes you. And you know, hopefully what you'll be doing for CSUSM in the future to kind of expand the center and hopefully take up even more responsibility for the school. Carreon: Yeah (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. Thanks, Daniela. Carreon: All right. Thank you. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2023-11-28 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Carreon, Daniela. Interview transcript, April 6, 2023. Description An account of the resource Daniela Carreon is alumna of California State University San Marcos, where she worked with the Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) and other student organizations such as MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan). In this interview, Daniela discusses her involvement with the CCC, campus changes, and her current work & goals as a sociology PhD student. This interview was conducted in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM and generously funded by the Instructionally Related Activities Fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Daniela Carreon Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael De Maria Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-06 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance California State University San Marcos. Ethnic Studies California State University San Marcos. Events and Conference Services Civil rights Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán Student movements Psychic trauma Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Encinitas (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Daniela Carreon License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CarreonDaniela_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-06_transcript Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Latine experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Linda Kallas Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Diania Caudell OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CaudellDiania_KallasLinda_2022-10-17_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Caudell, Diania. Interview October 27, 2022 SC027-22 1:35:35 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Basket making Education -- Native Americans Luiseño Indians Oceanside (Calif.) Diania Caudell Linda Kallas mp4 CaudellDiania_KallasLinda_2022-10-17_access_redacted.mp4 1:|23(17)|51(14)|74(5)|91(9)|108(14)|129(9)|139(14)|156(6)|168(11)|179(10)|196(9)|215(13)|233(8)|248(2)|265(9)|282(2)|300(17)|312(13)|340(16)|373(13)|399(13)|418(11)|435(5)|458(2)|482(12)|497(4)|513(2)|533(6)|552(8)|567(7)|584(9)|601(8)|626(4)|645(12)|668(10)|684(13)|710(7)|729(7)|751(5)|765(7)|792(7)|816(12)|830(5)|857(12)|875(11)|904(17)|924(12)|947(6)|967(7)|989(14)|1008(8)|1030(2)|1044(10)|1061(14)|1082(9)|1100(1)|1123(13)|1148(8)|1170(9)|1192(9)|1209(1)|1220(1)|1235(15)|1255(1)|1280(9)|1294(14)|1320(7)|1340(14)|1356(3)|1382(10)|1402(4)|1432(12)|1452(9)|1472(6)|1487(8)|1503(5)|1546(12)|1562(15)|1580(16)|1603(4)|1622(9)|1638(6)|1659(2)|1682(6)|1722(3)|1761(12)|1780(1)|1791(6)|1806(11)|1820(8)|1840(16)|1854(2)|1876(3)|1895(7)|1907(7) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/214f3df10b105188751e6d028fef0176.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction/ Family background Diania Caudell discusses her family’s background. Diania explains that one side of her family is part of the San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians and that goes back nine generations. The other side of her family is French, and her great-grandfather, Hubert Foussat, was one of the founding fathers of Oceanside, CA. She also discusses other family details, such as the fact that she and her parents moved around the West Coast during her childhood due to her father’s career in construction, as well as information about her grandmother who worked at Camp Pendleton. family history ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians 339 Activism in Indian education reform Diania Caudell discusses her activism in advocating for the Acjachemen and Juaneño people for education reform in San Jan Capistrano, CA. She recalls fighting against Indigenous erasure in her children’s classrooms. She describes the complicated history of school registration files in terms of ethnicity, and how many Indigenous families were taught to select either “Other” or “Caucasian” on school and other legal forms. She explains how this causes erasure in the school system. She recalls surveying the K-12 registration files in the San Juan Capistrano Unified School District and identified 210 Indigenous students. This led to the formation of the San Juan Capistrano Council, which established an Indian Research Center. Acjachemen people ; activism ; education reform ; Indian education ; Indigenous activism ; Indigenous students ; Juaneño people ; San Jan Capistrano (Calif.) ; San Juan Capistrano Unified School District ; students 727 Back injury/ Career in basketry Diania Caudell describes a back injury she suffered. She recounts deciding to undergo back surgery and learning how to walk again. While recovering from the surgery, the Acjachemen people sent her a newsletter about basketry. She describes making the decision to learn basket-weaving in order to learn patience for her recovery, and also to expand her knowledge on Indian education. Acjachemen people ; Back injury ; Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous education 1167 Indigenous educational programs Diania Caudell discusses the current state of the San Juan Capistrano Unified School District. The Indian Research Center is open to the student population, but she explains that it requires federal funding to remain open. She also explains that the Research Center is also open in Huntington Beach because they have a large Cherokee community in the area. She explains how Indigenous history is not properly taught in K-12 schools. activism ; Cherokee people ; education reform ; Huntington Beach (Calif.) ; Indian education ; Indigenous activism ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous students ; San Jan Capistrano (Calif.) ; San Juan Capistrano Unified School District ; students 1511 The California Indian Basketry Weavers Association Diania Caudell discusses her involvement with the California Indian Basketry Weavers Association (CIBA). She explains that she has been a CIBA board member for at least twelve years. Before joining the board, the CIBA discovered that the traditional materials that are used in basket weaving were being destroyed due to development projects. Since becoming a board member, Diania has advocated towards protecting Southern California native lands. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; California Indian Basketry Weavers Association (CIBA) ; Environmentalism ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Native lands ; Native plants 1968 The foundations of basket-weaving Diania Caudell describes the various types of traditional plants that are used in basket-weaving. She explains that California is home to over 243 tribes, and that each tribe uses different plants. In Southern California, about five different plants are used in basket-weaving, such as the Juncus textilis and yucca. Diania also describes the many different weaving and dyeing techniques that are used in basketry. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Native lands ; Native plants 3030 Pesticide and insecticide effects on native plants and basket-weaving Diania Caudell describes the dangers pesticides and insecticides have on native plants and on the health of the community. This is an important topic that she has brought awareness to as a CIBA board member. Cities and counties often will not provide notice to their citizens when they begin spraying to protect against insects and rodents, and this causes major health concerns to basket-weavers or others who regularly pick native plants and crops. She describes an incident in which she smelled a plant and experienced a chemical reaction. She expresses concern for places like golf courses and hiking trails, where athletes, families, children, and animals frequent regularly. Diania also explains how the chemicals are affecting food and water supplies in Indigenous communities. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; California Indian Basketry Weavers Association (CIBA) ; Environmentalism ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Insecticides ; Native lands ; Native plants ; Pesticides 3584 Local volunteer work Diania Caudell discusses her volunteer work in North County. She has volunteered her time at Camp Pendelton, at Daly Ranch, and at local elementary schools. Diania discusses in great detail her time as a docent at Daly Ranch, where she aided in the “Indian program” and presented on the history of local Indigenous communities. She recalls bonding with one of the rangers and how they made a wiiwish dish together. She also recalls how her role expanded while volunteering at the Daly Ranch, other volunteers with whom she worked, and the school group programs she helped develop. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; California State University San Marcos ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Daly Ranch ; Escondido (Calif.) ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous education ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; students 3994 Basket-weaving at Mission San Luis Rey Diania Caudell discusses her volunteer work at Mission San Luis Rey. She provided a basket-weaving demonstration to forty-six Franciscans. She describes expecting to see the Franciscan friars dressed in traditional robes, but was surprised to find them dressed in modern street clothes. She recalls the demonstration being a rewarding experience for all involved. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Catholic Church ; Franciscan friars ; friars ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Mission San Luis Rey ; Oceanside (Calif.) 4328 Upcoming presentations Diania Caudell discusses the upcoming presentations she has scheduled in North County. She talks about planning to do basket-weaving demonstrations at Pablo Tac elementary school. She also talks about performing at the upcoming Jubilation of the Valley Festival and doing another basket-weaving demonstration at a senior center. She also recounts her recent demonstration at Camp Pendleton, where she discussed the native plants near the area with the audience. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Schools ; Students 4606 Controversy over working with the Mission Diania Caudell reflects on the criticism she has received from the Indigenous community about her volunteer work at the Mission San Luis Rey. She states that she is not condoning the racist history of the Mission towards their Indigenous community, but she also wants to pay her respects to her ancestors who are buried on the Mission grounds. She explains the complicated history the Luiseño people have with the Mission, especially those whose ancestors helped built the Mission, or who were educated and lived on the Mission’s grounds. family history ; genocide ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Mission San Luis Rey ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; racism 5016 Becoming a historian/ The Luiseño language Diania Caudell discusses how she became a historian of Indigenous history. She explains how she attended California State University Riverside to learn the Luiseño language. She then performs a demo language presentation with the interviewer. She uses laminated cards containing illustrations with associating Luiseño words for the demo presentation. Diania also reads a poem that she wrote about the Luiseño people and their creation story that was inspired by a hike up a mountain near Rainbow, CA. California State University Riverside ; historian ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Indigenous poetry ; Luiseño language ; Luiseño people ; poetry ; Rainbow (Calif.) Oral history Interview with Diania Caudell focused on her Native American ancestry as well as her past occupation as an accountant. Also included is her implementation of Native American education in the San Juan Capistrano School District and how her back injury led her to become a basket weaver. The written transcription of this interview also contains a glossary and poem in Luiseño with English translation, written by Caudell in 2003. DC: Is my lipstick okay? [laughs] Today is October 27, 2022. I am Linda Kallas, and I am interviewing Diania Caudell as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Thank you, Diania, for being here, and allowing me to do this with you today. Diania Caudell: No $uun Looviq [&quot ; My heart is good&quot ; in Luiseno. Our way of saying &quot ; thank you.&quot ; ] [chuckles] Linda: Miiyu. [&quot ; Hello&quot ; to one person in Luiseno.] DC: Miiyu [laughs]. LK: Um, we were--I just wanted to ask you when and where you were born. DC: Uh, where was I-- [redacted] 1948. I was born here in North County, San Diego--Oceanside, California, San Diego County. LK: And was your family an active part of any cultural community, such as religious or ethnic groups? DC: Well [sighs] yeah, we were, uh, part of the first indigenous people here in the Americas or whatever you want to say on that part. Um, we are part of the San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians, uh, been in the area as far as, uh, the written is concerned, you know, since they were written at the Missions, I would say the 1700s, because after that it was, um, mostly--before that it was all oral. So, um, we&#039 ; ve been here over nine generations. That&#039 ; s on the native side. LK: That&#039 ; s on the native side. DC: Yeah. LK: Which means-- DC: It means that-- LK: On the other side is-- DC: On the other side, the French side came to us, and he landed here in 1868. He was Hubert Foussat. Here in San Francisco. He was one of the founding fathers of Oceanside. LK: Is that why there&#039 ; s a street named after him? DC: Yes. But that&#039 ; s not at a--that&#039 ; s not named after my great grandfather. That&#039 ; s named, really, with--after his brother, Ramon Foussat. LK: Okay. DC: And he&#039 ; s the one that had the ranch in the area up there, by Highland and Oceanside. Faustino Foussat had the land there in the valley, San Luis Rey Valley. LK: And there&#039 ; s also an elementary school named Louise Foussat. DC: Yes. She&#039 ; s--I&#039 ; ve always called her as an aunt, but she&#039 ; s really a cousin. Um, she was--she married a Foussat. Okay. Her maiden name is a Munoa, and her mother was, um, Theresa Gidden, Theresa Giddens, and, um, that&#039 ; s another one that&#039 ; s--she was born at Pala, and, uh,that&#039 ; s another side of our family, my father&#039 ; s side, that had been here a long time. That&#039 ; s another whole side that I could talk about when you get to that point, if you want to, and his grandmother-- LK: Okay. DC: --was born on the Marron Ranch in 1865, so-- LK: So, your family history stretches way back in the North County. DC: Yes. Yes. LK: Um, this seems like a silly question, but how do you like living and working here? DC: [laughs] Okay, it--all I can tell you is that, um, I wouldn&#039 ; t want to live anyplace else, you know, other than--growing up, I lived all over the state of California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Nevada, only because I&#039 ; m, I&#039 ; m a construction brat, let&#039 ; s just put it that way. My father was a heavy construction operator, had his own equipment. So, if you go anywhere here in California for the freeways, he probably helped build those, all the dams here in California, uh, he was probably was working on those, um, also like Parker Dam in New Mexico, you know, even in Arizona, I mean, excuse me, Arizona. You have some of the bigger dams, you know, throughout [breathes in] so, um, my mother kept coming back to North County, because she was born here in San Luis Rey Valley. Her family, her family&#039 ; s from here. My father&#039 ; s family is from Pala. So, we kept coming back and, um, I think she put her foot down from travelling when my brother and I were in junior high. So, I graduated from Escondido High School, and stayed in Escondido until I got married, then I moved up to Orange County, San Juan Capistrano. I was up there for 40 some years, before I came back down here to my home. LK: Wow. DC: [laughs, then bell chimes] Oh-oh. Is that me? LK: Well, so you do feel part of the community, and within that, do you feel like you have a support network? DC: Well, if you&#039 ; re gonna say support network, you&#039 ; re going to have to look at the whole family, okay. Just with my great-grandfather. He had 11 daughters. LK: Wow. DC: And so, one of them was my grandmother, and he raised my mother because her father died when she, when she was a young child. And so, my great-grandfather, Faustino Foussat, raised her. So, when you have a large--just one branch of the Foussat family that had all these sisters and all these children, um, there&#039 ; s a support group on the ones that were close [chuckles] let&#039 ; s just say. My grandmother, um, was born in San Luis Rey Valley, uh, lived there all her life, uh, well not all her--until she retired, and then she went to Hemet. But, she retired from Camp Pendleton. She was one of the first workers there, you know, in the pressing. So, network-wise, yes, we have a good network of family. But, they all kind of seem to travel away, you know, on some things. Still, today, you know, because it&#039 ; s San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians which I&#039 ; m part of, we have good support network, in that, within relatives. I mean we have--I have a lot of cousins, you know, and related on both sides. If we had to talk about that, I&#039 ; m double related on some of them, and people just kind of wonder what--how did that happen? When you try to explain the story, uh, it gets confusing. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: So, um, we just want to do a big picture one day [laughs]. LK: That would be nice. Um, you said that you were in Orange County for 40 years. DC: Mm-hmm. LK: So, tell me about the work you did there. DC: [sighs] Ok. Let&#039 ; s just start that--when I got married, I moved up there and, um, when I was here I was starting in accounting. Okay? I&#039 ; m an accountant by trade. That wasn&#039 ; t really what I wanted to do, but that&#039 ; s how it ended up, you know, going into accounting. Um, so I did a lot of accounting for dealerships. Went back to college to get my degree into Accounting, and then went into accounting, business law, etc. so I stayed--like to work with numbers. I&#039 ; m just good with numbers. And, so, I worked with dealerships, school districts, medical field in the accounting field. I didn&#039 ; t become, later on, the weaver or in, with my cultural until I had to have a back injury. So, for 40-some years, up there in San Juan Capistrano, Orange County, I got involved with the Acjachemen people, the Juaneños there, helping them through Indian education, in the 70s, because that&#039 ; s a story that-- I can go into that, and I think I--it&#039 ; s kind of long but shortly is that I grew up with being native, and the schools not teaching us correctly. Okay? LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You read the books, etcetera, and you hear about how they were dressed, what they were, were they savages? Etcetera. And I would come home from school and saying this is not how we are. And then my mother, my grandmother, and family would say &quot ; Don&#039 ; t argue, Diania, just let it go.&quot ; And so when I got married, and my two children, my son and my daughter, when they went to school up there in the Palisades, or in Capistrano Unified School District, they came home one day and said they were entitled to something other. It was like a Spanish program, Title II, at that time. And so, I went to the school to find out how my children got tagged into--in the Spanish community, when my last name is French, and it&#039 ; s Caudell. And so, talking with the school principal, um, we found out that I followed that person that was in charge of Title II, and what had happened--how my two ended up coming with that notice is that this person went around the school to the classrooms and asked questions. Now, if you had a surname, with Romero, Sanchez, Alvaros, Valenzuela, any of those Spanish names, she automatically put them down on the list as a Spanish or Mexican. Uh, then, the other question when she got that from the roster, she then would ask &quot ; how many children here already know that their parents, or grandparents, speak Spanish.&quot ; Well, my two automatically raised their hand because their father spoke Spanish. And he was taught that from his mother and also because of the community of San Juan Capistrano. You&#039 ; ve got to think of the missions. That was the language that was taught to the Indian people. And, um, so that&#039 ; s how my two got on there. And so I challenged that at the school district, at the, you know, with the superintendent, and, uh, they came back at me and saying &quot ; well, the last Indian person that was living here in San Juan Capistrano died in 1933, and he was the bell-ringer.&quot ; And I go, &quot ; no, that can&#039 ; t be, because I&#039 ; m here. I&#039 ; ve got relatives that are married into the Juaneño or Acjachemen people. You still have them here, and so, um, I became an advocate [laughs], an activist, or whatever you want to say, and contacted my relatives there, that are--that married into the Acjachemen people, and, identified them. We went back to the school district, and went through all their rosters, because back in the 70s, when you&#039 ; re ethnic, when they ask you that question, when you&#039 ; re enrolling your student, your child, they ask you what ethnic group you are. Well, in those days--I&#039 ; m saying those days, in the 70s, you only had, like, you had Caucasian, you had Asian--not even Asian, really. Mexican, I think. But you didn&#039 ; t have the--what you have today is the Native American/Alaskan ethnic group. And so I always put us under &quot ; Other&quot ; as Native American, because I am a registered through the B.I.A., Bureau of Indian Affairs, and I have my certification, that I am who I am, meaning Native American. And, um, so I always made sure that my children would have that, going through there. So, we went through K-12, went to the registry of the school district and got all their cum files, or whatever they call them, those information files, and took home all the ones that were identified as Native American. A lot of them were not, because they didn&#039 ; t want to, because it was passed down to us that you didn&#039 ; t want to register as Native American because it wasn&#039 ; t the best thing to do. So, they always put Caucasian. So, from K-12 in that school district, Capistrano High School District, we had identified 210 students. LK: Wow. DC: And so that kind of put us into the category of challenging the school. Uh, UCI had Kogee Thomas at that time. She was the Director. She heard about what was happening. She came down to become my mentor. With that, because she&#039 ; s really high with the Seminoles and Muscogee people at that, then, and we wrote the first grant. We brought in Title IV, Indian Education Act, Public Law 194, in 1975. [laughs] LK: Wow. DC: So, I&#039 ; ve been through this for a long time. We ended up forming the San Juan Capistrano Council, because they had to reform themselves again. They never left. They just said their leader moved, and they just kind of--in the 60s, or in the 50s, he left, and so they just kind of knew they were there, but they weren&#039 ; t formally formed yet. So we reformed them. So today I can just tell you that in Capistrano Unified School District, they still have Indian Education. They have a Indian Research Center, kind of, for teachers, instructors, and parents, there on the Clarence Lobo Elementary school grounds. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That if you wanted to study any Indian, not just California, any, any native person across indigenous person across the United States, in Alaska and Hawaii, etc., that you can go to that resource center, and that instructor, teacher, parent can pull the correct information that these tribes have handed in. So, that was one of my things that I did up there, other than just being an accountant. LK: Wow, that&#039 ; s impressive. DC: Okay, that was in the community. [laughs] LK: Yes, yes. And then you mentioned you hurt your back and that&#039 ; s what lead you to getting into basketry. Can you talk a little bit about that? DC: [sighs] Yeah, that was, um, a fall I had, okay? I don&#039 ; t want to describe the fall, because it&#039 ; s kind of, you know, it&#039 ; s kind of stupid. I mean, the thing is when you hurt your back, um, I thought I&#039 ; d go to the chiropractor. I went to work, and was working in Huntington Beach at that time, and I drove my car to Huntington Beach, went to sit down at my desk at the dealership, sat down and I couldn&#039 ; t move. They had to literally pick me up, take me to my car. I called my chiropractor in Newport and, uh, he went to adjust it, and he says &quot ; This isn&#039 ; t that, you know. This is something else.&quot ; And so they took x-rays, and he still tried the adjustment. I--and it got a point where I had to quit. I couldn&#039 ; t--you know, I was losing to walk, etc. And the pain kept going through that, and then finally when they did an MRI on me, you know, they found out that I had―let me see, I&#039 ; m trying to figure out how to describe this, because I&#039 ; m not a medic, medical person-- I was diag--rheumatism arthritis runs in our family on my dad&#039 ; s side, my grandmother&#039 ; s side. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Not too much on my mother&#039 ; s side, but on, through my dad&#039 ; s side. And so, I guess hereditarily, I have that in my system. What are you going to do? So, when I hit the lower back really hard, I accelerated the arthritis rheumatism in my spine. And so when that happened, that&#039 ; s what they found with the MRI. So, they said &quot ; Diania, if you don&#039 ; t have, do something with it, it&#039 ; s going to get worse, and you&#039 ; re going to lose a lot of functions that you normally can take that you can control of. And, anyway, I put it off a whole year. I didn&#039 ; t want to have my back opened up. And so, I got to a point where I couldn&#039 ; t deal with this anymore. And so, I had to say yes. They opened up 5, 4, and 6 of your vertebraes &lt ; sic&gt ; . They opened them up, and all I can describe it was a rotor-rooter job. She went in there, and just tried to scrape out all the rheumatism, or arthritis, away from my spine, inside my spine. And when she did that, she hit one of the sciatic nerves. LK: oh-- DC: And uh, &#039 ; cuz it, nothing&#039 ; s replaced. They just sealed it back up again. And, uh, so when I came out of surgery, I didn&#039 ; t realize that I couldn&#039 ; t walk because the nurses tried to--they put those belts [gestures tying a belt around her waist] on you when you&#039 ; re going to go and make you go to the restroom, etc., you know, when you&#039 ; re [unintelligible] and when I went to get out the bed, I fell straight to the floor. Thank goodness I had belts on me, because the two nurses and all the surgeons come running in, and I lost everything from the waist down. Had to learn how to walk all over again. It took me--they said &quot ; Diania, you&#039 ; re going to have to learn patience.&quot ; And I&#039 ; m not one with patience, let&#039 ; s put it that way. I do have patience for other people, but not for myself. So, I didn&#039 ; t know what to do and the Acjachemen people had sent me a newsletter, and my mom brought it up, and on the front cover of that newsletter that was next to the, my bed in the hospital was Lillian Robles. She&#039 ; s an elder. She&#039 ; s passed on before, but she had a basket hat on. And I saw the basket hat and I went &quot ; Oh, great. I guess to learn patience, I guess I can get into basketry.&quot ; LK: Oh-- DC: And I never was in it. I was more in the Indian education. I was more into the helping with the activities. My mother was a weaver. My aunts were weavers, their jewelry, they&#039 ; re always crafting with their hands. I was not. They always pushed me away, and said &quot ; Diania, you know, we&#039 ; re need--we need you in education. We need you speaking for our people.&quot ; And so when I called, I looked at that, and I called Teeter Romero who was a top weaver from the Acjachemen people, and she--her and I were really close, worked together for years, with Indian education-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―Inter-tribal Council of California, I mean, the different areas, you know, for the people, Indian people. And I called her, and let her know that, um, I need to become a weaver. Well, she started laughing on the phone, when I called from the hospital, because she didn&#039 ; t know where I was at. LK: She laughed at you? DC: Well, she laughed at me, because she said &quot ; you&#039 ; re not a weaver, you know, you&#039 ; re just not a weaver.&quot ; And then she says &quot ; Why?&quot ; And I says &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m in the hospital, and I can&#039 ; t walk, and I need to learn patience.&quot ; So, when she heard that, she says &quot ; okay, when you&#039 ; re able to get home and sit up in a wheelchair, we&#039 ; ll come to you.&quot ; And, they did. I was with my mom here in Escondido, at that time. And they came down. About six months--let&#039 ; s see, I had the operation in April ; they came down in June. And I was being able to sit up in there. I was still trying to learn to walk. I was with a walker. And, they came! And they started, uh--sat down with me, and the first thing they gave me was raffia in one hand and pine needle in the other, and they had me doing the coiling, just to learn to go round and round and round and round, with basketry. From then on, it took me, you know, work--it took me almost two years to learn how to walk again, by myself. I was with a--I couldn&#039 ; t drive. My mom was driving me all over. I had the walker. I got everything back in my left leg, but on my right leg not everything came through. And so, another six to eight months, I was doing acupuncture at Indian Health Council in Rincon, because I didn&#039 ; t want to open up my back again, okay, have another surgery. So, I don&#039 ; t have a lot of feeling in my right foot, from my calf, I think, down. But, I do think it--people don&#039 ; t realize that, you know, that I don&#039 ; t, but that&#039 ; s what put me into retirement, really. LK: How many years ago was that? DC: Okay. When did 9/11, what year was that? 2001? LK: That was &#039 ; 01. DC: Okay, &#039 ; 01. LK: 09. DC: Because, yeah, April of &#039 ; 01, because I remember I was still in bed and my mom got a call from her sister and my mom come running in to my bedroom, trying to insist I turn the TV on, and what she says--my mom was crying and I looked at that and there it was when I saw the airplane hit. They had that going on the towers and it was like looking at a movie. LK: Yeah. DC: Okay. That was just unbelievable. Okay? So, that was April, September, okay. It was--that&#039 ; s how I can remember. I can never remember the year, but I just think it&#039 ; s the year of 9/11. So twenty-oh-one, right? LK: Yeah, 21 years ago. DC: Yeah, so it was 21 years ago. I was still on--I have been on social security disability, because I can&#039 ; t sit that long. So, if I get up on you guys, and take a break, then I&#039 ; m sorry, you know, but that--My, my job was an accountant, and so that was sitting a lot. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then to get up and sit and get up is one of the things. So, uh, that&#039 ; s how I got into basketry and I&#039 ; m still doing that today, you know, on that. But, it&#039 ; s taken me learning different things, you know, getting--you want me to go into California Indian Basket Weavers Association? LK: Yeah, I― DC: [laughs] okay, okay. LK: I was going to ask that--I--but I wanted to go back, just for a minute-- DC: Okay. LK: --to Indian education. DC: Mm-hmm. LK: So, I think you said it&#039 ; s still going on to this day. You still, they still have that educational program in San Juan Capistrano. DC: Yeah, they still have the Capistrano Unified School District and it&#039 ; s going still strong, but they have to be the parents that have to want it. LK: Ah, okay. DC: It doesn&#039 ; t just stay with the Acjachemen people. And they do have, I think they have a resource instructor there, someone in their administration, that they do go out for. Because it is a fund. It&#039 ; s funding, it&#039 ; s federal funding. All school districts need money― LK: Right. DC: ―and it&#039 ; s a head count. And so, Capistrano Unified School District still has it, so does Huntington Beach, because they have a large community of the Cherokee Indian― LK: Oh! DC: ―outside natives coming in, because a lot of people don&#039 ; t realize, that if they do start researching, you can go into 1963. They had the Relocation Act, of Native Americans. And, this isn&#039 ; t taught in schools. This isn&#039 ; t taught in--you know, for the general public, sometimes, unless you&#039 ; re involved with Native Americans and their--and the different things. Well, 1963 they relocated Cherokee, Choctaw, and a lot of different native groups into California. LK: Oh-- DC: You know, a lot of the Cherokees went to the Anaheim area, Huntington Beach area, and settled there. You had a lot of the Cherokee, Osage, and some coming down to San Diego. The largest Choctaw Relocation is in Bakersfield. LK: I&#039 ; ll be darned. DC: So, yeah, it&#039 ; s a--it was--it&#039 ; s interesting, uh, how they did move native people around to get them away from their &quot ; homeland&quot ; and give them incentives at that time that &quot ; we can move you to California. You know, you can emerge into there&quot ; and stuff. And so a lot of it is kind of detrimental but with them, they brought their, they brought their culture and their tradition with them, which is good. LK: So, if you could see something change in regard to that educational program, what would it be? Would it be to expand it to San Diego County? Would it be-- DC: Well, San Diego County had a big--has a big Indian education program. They did--they--you just don&#039 ; t hear about it― LK: Okay. DC: ―um, in their school district. What it would be good to expand on there is that, um, to get it more to the public, to the other schools, okay. It takes a school district to want it. I&#039 ; ve notified Oceanside. I&#039 ; ve notified Vista. In Vista alone, a few years ago, they identified another 200, because now they have that on their information form of the child&#039 ; s registers, you know, what ethnic group you are. And 210 had registered as Native American. It doesn&#039 ; t mean they&#039 ; re, you know, San Luis Rey or California. They can be from anywhere in the United States. And most of them that do register for their ethnic group know that they are, or they&#039 ; ve been told that they are. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it gets a parent, it&#039 ; s gotta be a parent to initiate it, to get a parent group together, and that way they can work with the school district. And then they can apply for grants. And then they can get the head count. Then they can get a resource instructor in there, or someone to work with the Indian education, and then it comes in with tutoring. That was one thing I did. I knew for, just for reading and math, at least. Get the children on the tutoring. They have the tutoring. They were pulled out of class or they brought the equipment in, if they needed equipment. There, Capistrano Unified School District, we&#039 ; ll go back to that. It was shown as a need. Getting the general books that they need into the libraries. That&#039 ; s how that resource center started, because the school districts will only go by what the state says, for state books, state history books, they―etc. The Native peoples say &quot ; No, that&#039 ; s not correct. We will want our own books coming in.&quot ; So that&#039 ; s what we did in the 70s. We brought in records. At that time, you didn&#039 ; t have CDs or you know, what we had, you know, you had-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: LPs. And so we brought in records of the singing of the different groups. They brought in books that the teachers can get through, or parents could check out, you know, and working with that to get the education in there. And you have to have the school district to want to work with you. Um, we--it was a hard thing, with, even with Capistrano Unified School District, to do it. But if I didn&#039 ; t have the help with Kogee Thomas and some of the top people that come from back east, that were very strong in their native cultural, that I don&#039 ; t think that Capistrano would have done it either. &#039 ; Cuz we challenged them. We challenged them, so-- LK: But, how enriching for the students. DC: It is, but you got to have again, you gotta have a parent― LK: Right. DC: ―who would want that, so their student or their child can get that extra help. LK: There has to be a buy-in for it, with the parent. DC: Yes, and so it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s--today, in Capistrano Unified School District, the ones that do use it--I know my grandchildren went through it--they provided the computers at home for the tutoring. You know, they didn&#039 ; t have to go to like a trailer, or be pulled out of class, and be taken, you know, like to a tutorial room like we did in the 70s. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Uh, with the st--with my two children, my daughter used it and they had computers at home. The school district provided these computers, these laptops for the home that they could use and they got tutored every day, since they were in grade school. All the way through high school. LK: Wow. It gave them a really good sense of self. DC: It gave a sense of self, and they--at first it was &quot ; why do we have to do this for half an hour every day?&quot ; [laughs] I mean, but as they got older in high school, and then went to college, you know, especially going through all those tests that you have to take for college, they, they were happy because they knew a lot of the questions and were able to answer them. Because of the tutorial they had, um, above and beyond what they normally get in school, in class. LK: Wow. That&#039 ; s wonderful. So, you&#039 ; ve already explained a little bit about your life&#039 ; s path, how it&#039 ; s evolved and changed over the years, so I was going to ask you if you wanted to share a little bit more about the basketry and CIBA, and I see that you have a little sample of one. DC: [laughs] Ok. When you said CIBA, I don&#039 ; t think everybody knows what CIBA is, okay. You&#039 ; re familiar with it. CIBA is California Indian Basket Weavers Association. Um, that&#039 ; s another thing that I have been a member of and I&#039 ; m on the Board for the last umpteen years, I would say--let&#039 ; s just say the last 12 years. I know it&#039 ; s been longer. Uh, but how I got involved in that, again, was going back to when I became basket--learning basketry and the plants, finding out that southern California doesn&#039 ; t have everything that they normally have. If you know the county here, we&#039 ; ve got 18 reservations here in the San Diego County alone and the people--where they were sent--aren&#039 ; t on their homelands. I mean-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It&#039 ; s not where they would have their medi--their medicinal plants, their foods, or their traditional cultural plants like basketry and other things, and so they had--the people had to go off the reservations, and to public lands, which would be your forestries, um, county parks, state parks, etc., even private land, to get the materials that they need for the basketry. Well, I had a problem with that because I didn&#039 ; t understand that, you know, and why did they have the restrictions here in southern California when I found out that in central California, they don&#039 ; t have that. In northern California they don&#039 ; t have the same restrictions. But it&#039 ; s because a lot of these central reservations or rancherias in northern California, too, is that they&#039 ; re on their homelands. They&#039 ; re rancherias. They weren&#039 ; t like taken from one area and moved. Okay. They&#039 ; ve had little rancherias, then. That&#039 ; s what they called them, instead of reservations, up in northern California, spread out. And so they were on their lands and they had the traditional materials. LK: Oh, I see. DC: For example, you&#039 ; ve got the Yuroks and the Hoopas up there. They&#039 ; re in the forest up there. They have the red for--the, the redwoods. They got the forest. They&#039 ; ve got a lot of their plants. And that&#039 ; s their economic development. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But, that&#039 ; s―they don&#039 ; t call them reservations. They call them rancherias. Okay, so, so I started asking questions about that. You know, I&#039 ; d say &quot ; how come, what for?&quot ; And I went to a gathering of CIBA, because they have a large gathering once a year for the basket weavers of the state of California, and I started asking &quot ; how come, what for, why is it that in California we don&#039 ; t have this, when you have it up there?&quot ; And then I was told by a board member, &quot ; Well, Diania, you keep asking these questions. Why don&#039 ; t you--we&#039 ; re having a Board election. Why don&#039 ; t you throw your hat in, your name, and we can see what we can do?&quot ; Well, I got elected. You know, I mean, I didn&#039 ; t expect that at all. And I&#039 ; ve been on it ever since, since 2003. And, uh, so I became an advocate of, for southern California, to get in, our traditional trading, you know, gathering, etc., our traditional materials, you know, on that. And so, if I didn&#039 ; t enjoy what I&#039 ; m doing and have a passion for it, you know, I think learning about my traditional materials that we use for basketry, which is hard to find here in southern California, if you don&#039 ; t get somebody to help you, you know, with that. And, um, so I think being educating people has helped me. LK: Um, the traditional materials are hard to find because of development? They&#039 ; ve all been-- DC: Yes, uh-- LK: --plowed over or-- DC: Um, there&#039 ; s a--[reaching to her left for a brochure with the front cover reading &quot ; Indian Rock Project&quot ; ] okay, let me just see, I&#039 ; m just going to go through here. This here, this is Indian Rock Project, okay. This is something that we worked with the Cal St--uh, San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians and Cal State San Marcos worked together with Palomar College to do, to put this book out. This was done in 2003, which was a long time ago. But in here, in this book, let me just--[flipping through pages]--the--when you see what they--when you ask me about, uh--[looking at a particular page]--uh, where is it? [flips through more pages] And then you all--she&#039 ; s probably going to edit this, but that&#039 ; s okay. Because I was asked that question that you were just asking, and [still flipping through pages] LK: About the natural-- DC: I found it. Okay, I had said here, on here &quot ; preserving tradition&quot ; and this is, you know― [turning the booklet to Linda to show her the specific pages]--I ended up being in the booklet, okay, okay, on this Indian Rock Project [shows front cover] You could probably go online, you know, and download it, because they don&#039 ; t have any more of these booklets. But, when you asked me that question, I said [she&#039 ; s reading from the booklet] &quot ; a lot of our things are being destroyed. If you look at our environment around us, we have development, development, development. Juncus and all the plants that we use for actually making the baskets are being destroyed. When we are out driving, we stop, we get out there, and we take pictures. I want to find a spot, notify the nearest reservations, notify the Forestry, notify the developers--&quot ; Can we go in? Can we pick? Can we transplant? Because if you are going to develop it and destroy it, let us go in.&quot ; That was a statement that I had made, you know, for--for, for, like an interview for this booklet. So-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then it went on [flipping through booklet again] into who I am or whatever. But, um, yes, the development. And so more developers now are finding out that if you do have--if you do identify traditional materials and stuff, they are now trying to hopefully preserve &#039 ; em, or to have you come in and take them, or use them. But it is. Southern California is, gets hit with a lot of development because you look around here and you&#039 ; re looking at it. I&#039 ; m looking at the Mission San Juan--Mission, excuse me, San Luis Rey Mission. If you ever go by there, and stuff like this, you&#039 ; ll see we had wetlands there right next to it, and through the Lavanderia and right next to the Mission, what&#039 ; s happening now? The Mission leased it out, or sold it, whatever you want to say--99-some years. You&#039 ; ve got this big, huge retirement center going in there. It&#039 ; s like a resort. They are built on the wetlands, and uh, there went something that was natural, native, etc., and it&#039 ; s being developed. You drive around to different places now, here in San Diego County, and you&#039 ; re seeing development. So, it&#039 ; s really hard on-- LK: Everywhere you look. DC: Yeah, and I just don&#039 ; t understand, for me, where they&#039 ; re getting their water from. Because if we have a resource of, of water--that&#039 ; s one of the things that we don&#039 ; t have here in southern California. We have to bring it in from other places. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: How can you develop and, and, and bring in people, more and more people, so how are you going to give them water? Feeding you know--if you&#039 ; re going to feed, you&#039 ; ve got the grocery stores yet, or whatever. You still can&#039 ; t even have farmland any more hardly, but water. Water is essential for all living things. So, where they come, the water? I mean, the lease on the Colorado River is coming up. That was only a 99-year agreement. How are they going to negotiate that, if they want to stop the Colorado River from coming in? You know, I know they&#039 ; re doing desalting plant, but that&#039 ; s not even good for the ocean, you know, and not even good for us as people. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: So, um, that&#039 ; s a big question that I ask. Every time I drive around and see these developments, you know, and it&#039 ; s money. It&#039 ; s politics and money. Okay, we can go on. We won&#039 ; t go into that--[laughs] LK: Well, going back to the baskets-- DC: Okay. LK: Can you tell us some of the natural fibers that you use, natural plants you use in the baskets. DC: Okay. LK: The traditional-- DC: --Traditional plants. In the state of California, we have over 243 different tribes, 26 different dialects of language, and each one of the--in California, it&#039 ; s kind of divided up, like in northern, central, and southern, and we all don&#039 ; t use the same plants. Here in southern California, we basically use about five. And that would be Juncus textilis, which is a green reed that grows near water. It needs water. It&#039 ; s like a tule, if you&#039 ; ve seen tule in― LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―these wetlands, and stuff, or at these lakes, lagoons, but it&#039 ; s not cornered or-- Tule has three--is three-sided. Juncus textilis, is round. It&#039 ; s a round reed, and it grows up straight. It could--If you know how crab grass grows, it has, is that right? How it goes--what do you call that [gestures with her right hand, pointing straight and making curves in a snake-like fashion]-- you know, you pull it out of the shoots-- LK: Uh-huh. DC: --you know, like crab grass-- LK: Yeah. DC: And, anyway, uh, depending on where it&#039 ; s growing at and the materials that are in the--minerals--excuse me--that are in the soil, the bottom of the root type of thing, where the shaft comes out of there, the reed comes out of that shaft, it&#039 ; ll have color on it. And it&#039 ; s either from a deep light brown, mahogany color, to a deep red mahogany color. And, I didn&#039 ; t bring any of those baskets with me. I was going to, okay, but maybe I should have, but I didn&#039 ; t. If you ever notice some of the traditional baskets, you&#039 ; ll see this deep red color or brown color-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That&#039 ; s usually coming from the Juncus on the, on the end of the shaft on there, bottom part, which is in the ground. It&#039 ; s green when you plant--It&#039 ; s green when you collect it. You have to process it. It takes time. It grows with poison oak. That&#039 ; s another thing. We call it--it&#039 ; s our protector. The only time we go and gather the Juncus textilis is when we say the poison oak goes to sleep, and that only means that the leaves are gone. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it&#039 ; s still going to be contaminated, probably, with poison oak. And that&#039 ; s why we don&#039 ; t teach it as much, because some people don&#039 ; t want to be dealt with, with poison oak. That&#039 ; s what, that&#039 ; s the reed that we use for coiling. Okay? And that takes a process, splitting, etc., and getting it ready. It takes anywhere from six months to a year to even get your material ready to do a basket. The next one that we use for our start would be the center, which is the center of the basket, is yucca. And that, again, is that--what is it, yucca--uh, the Whippi? Or they call it the &quot ; Lord&#039 ; s Candle.&quot ; It think you&#039 ; ve seen it down by the road. You&#039 ; ll see it growing on the hillsides. There&#039 ; s different ways to use that. Some people will take the dead leaves, those great big green ones that they have and they grow pretty, even from the agave-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC:--and the yucca. When you see those dead ones, or dried out, in the desert, etc., you can take those and you can soak them really, really big in a big tub, and then you take that, and you pound it. And you just keep pounding it, when they&#039 ; re--you know, when you&#039 ; re drying them. And they&#039 ; ll--they&#039 ; ll turn fibrous, like string-- LK: Oh. DC:--and that&#039 ; s how you get your yucca sandals, and things like that, that they use in fiber, or your cordage. The other way you can do is with the yucca is you take the center of the new shoots that are coming out, before it becomes a flower in the stalk. [gestures up with an open hand] You take that, and you twist it, and you get about 30 or 40 small, small [gestures to indicate smallness of an object] little leaves, and then you take those and you shred &#039 ; em with a needle--we do--or pound them, and uh, you don&#039 ; t need to go out there anymore because you&#039 ; re not going to make 30 or 40 bags in your lifetime, as far as I know. I&#039 ; m not going to. But you have enough to where you don&#039 ; t have to go out there and gather them. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Then, deer grass. People use deer grass as a native plant for decoration or whatever, because it&#039 ; s drought tolerant. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it&#039 ; s not that Pampas grass that you see waving from that Africa--that African one is an invasive plant. I wish people would just take it away, and these nurseries--just take it out, you know get it--because that Pampas grass kills everything on the native plants. It just takes over. And deer grass is similar to it, but it doesn&#039 ; t have that fan on the top. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And, uh, the deer grass, we gather that and we take the shoots or the stems on them, and we gather, and that&#039 ; s what we coil around [gestures in a coiling fashion with both hands] So, the traditional, for the Mission baskets they called here that the Luiseño use, Cahuilla use, Kumeyaay use, the Cupeno use here in southern California, even the Chumash further up, and your Tongva and your different people. We do a coiling technique. Okay? So have you ever seen those baskets in museums, etc., you&#039 ; ll see that one by one, they&#039 ; re coiling. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They&#039 ; re coiling the Juncus textilis. They&#039 ; re coiling around with sticks that they use, which would be deer grass. And the center star that you see in the middle [creates a circle with her fingers on her left hand] is done with yucca. And sometimes it&#039 ; s also done with Juncus on Juncus, or Juncus on Deer Grass. It all depends who the weaver is, etc. Since we have to gather that, and we can&#039 ; t find it all over, you know what we do, we try to really work with the forestries, and private owners, and people. Try and get them to plant. It&#039 ; s not easy to plant the Juncus textilis because it&#039 ; s not going to grow everywhere. So, there&#039 ; s different areas that do have it. If you want to see Juncus textilis, where it&#039 ; s at, you can see it in the public, it&#039 ; s in the public discovery center there in Carlsbad. LK: Oh. DC: They have a good--kind of like a little garden, that they have it growing there. And the deer grass and the yucca. And that was done because we worked with the Discovery Center years ago with Cal State San Marcos and the students. And we did all the planting there, when it was there. So, if you want to see that, I would go there and visit it. And you can see what the Juncus textilis looks like. See, uh--[sighs]--but doing basketry is that--what I have here is samples. I did bring a basket. I just brought these hair pieces that I&#039 ; ve made for my two granddaughters [shows beautiful, small round woven hairpieces]. Can you see them okay?--LK: Yes, yes. DC: Out of Juncus. If you see, this one here is a little bit darker, and the black there [now holding only one of the hairpieces, with a woven black ring in the mid-region of the weave, and gesturing to this area] is dyed Juncus, okay? Now, that Juncus, um, was dyed with--[looking at the hairpiece now, more intensely]--I don&#039 ; t know, this was given to me, [chuckling] the dyed Juncus, so I&#039 ; m assuming they did it with, um, elderberry leaves, okay, and um, put in the Juncus, and in a can, okay, or, or like a coffee can that&#039 ; s all rusty. And what you do--you put the rusted can in there. You have your Juncus already split and put into the weaver, and then you put, um, into a coffee can [gesturing to show the size of the can] and it&#039 ; s all rusty. You put some rusty nails in it at the bottom, and then you start layering it with the Juncus textilis. It&#039 ; s the process. And on top of that you put elderberry leaves, and you keep going &#039 ; til you fill it. [gestures indicating layers building up] Then you fill it with water. LK: Oh. DC: And then you let the water--and then you put that can somewhere so it can ferment. It&#039 ; s like I tell you, it&#039 ; s got to get all yucky and like, rotten, and what it is is that it probably turns black. And it&#039 ; s--and you&#039 ; re getting the iron--what do you call that? Iron oxide?-- LK: Uh-huh. DC: --from the, from the nails and from the rusty can. Then when you empty it out, your Juncus is black. LK: Wow. DC: Dyed black. And that&#039 ; s also what&#039 ; s coming from the elderberry leaves. Another way that our ancestors did it was that during the creeks they knew where there was iron oxide in the soil, in the sand. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They would get their Juncus, and they would bury it in that sand. They&#039 ; d come back, weeks later or whatever, and dig it out, and it&#039 ; ll be black. Another way they do it, up in northern California, and in here too, is using walnuts, because we had, you know--black walnuts is a native plant of California. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And so they would take the shells, crunch &#039 ; em up, you know shells, the outside shell, they&#039 ; re called, and if you&#039 ; ve ever picked walnuts, you know that your hands get black? LK: Yeah. DC: Okay, because that--on the hull--because you take that, well they&#039 ; ll take that hull and chop it up, and then put in water, and put your Juncus in there, and with the walnut there, and they&#039 ; ll turn black, too. LK: Wow. DC: That&#039 ; s just one other way. It takes time. And they also use the acorn husk, or the shell of the acorn, and the black acorn, or any of the acorns, crush &#039 ; em up again and put them in water, put the Juncus in there, and then you have to leave it. So it is a time consuming deal. So these are two headpieces I did. Now, when we get to the schools--when you get to the school-- [holds up a small woven basket] this is a little basket that I&#039 ; ve had for years. But this is not a native material. This material that we use for teaching is from, okay, rattan. Everybody knows what rattan is. Rattan has a pith in it. Rattan and bamboo look similar but bamboo is hollow. Rattan is got the pith. To get the pith out of the rattan, pull it, press it, and make cane. This is how you get cane. LK: Oh. DC: And so what we use here, is that you can buy cane in different rounds, or different sizes or gauges. You can get it flat. You can get it round. Uh, we get the round, and this is called Cherokee Single Wall twine. I call it, uh--we have our own twine, excuse me, but it&#039 ; s not like this one, the Luiseño. And why I use Cherokee is because one of the easiest ones that the kids can use at school. It&#039 ; s the closest thing that I can get to the river cane, from the Cherokee and Choctaw and the people there, in Oklahoma and that area, will use, because they go and pick their river cane. We don&#039 ; t have river cane here in California. If we do have it, I wouldn&#039 ; t want to go down there because it&#039 ; s probably contaminated. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It&#039 ; s got all those other things, and they probably sprayed it a lot with pesticides. And so this is what we teach in school, and I call it &quot ; Cherokee Single Walled Twine.&quot ; We make the starts. The kids can make one of these [holding up a skein of yarn] within an hour, even the adults, over two hours. And maybe not this size, maybe a little bit bigger. But this way, they don&#039 ; t have any allergies or con― such so far, uh, getting sick from it. Because, I can&#039 ; t guarantee our native traditional plants that we do use aren&#039 ; t--it doesn&#039 ; t have some type of pesticides on it, or some poisons on it that we&#039 ; re not aware of. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And we use our mouth [wipes her right hand across her mouth] a lot for our third hand when we&#039 ; re weaving with our traditional materials. LK: Because you have to keep them-- DC: We have to keep them very moist. LK: Moist. DC: Everything has to moist. It has to be pliable. It has to be moist. If you&#039 ; re going to be weaving with almost anything, even with cloth, even with weeds, even with flowers or stems or, you know, branches. We do use willow, though, okay? Aurora willow, or the willow tree. We make baskets out of that too. If you ever notice the big acorn granaries, they call &#039 ; em, have you ever seen them on pictures-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --that the tribes had next to their kiichas or their ewaks for here in southern California, even northern California. They have great big acorn granaries. Those are made out of willow. They&#039 ; re woven green, and when they&#039 ; re woven green, uh, then they let―they dry. But do they use willow? Willow is a natural insecticide. It keeps the insects away from the acorns. And that&#039 ; s why they have them high up on a stilt like, or platform, to keep their small animal away from them, or whatever. But if they do―these small animals try to get to the acorn, then they can also plug it up, or whatever. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But those acorn granaries can last for hundreds of years, you know. They&#039 ; ve found, when they&#039 ; ve done research, you know, in the mountains or at their villages, you&#039 ; ll see a granary that is still up. But, it&#039 ; s a natural insecticide. People don&#039 ; t realize that the willow is a natural insecticide-- LK: That&#039 ; s interesting. DC: --to weave with it. LK: So, in traditional weaving, was it always the women, the tribal women, that did the baskets or did men-- DC: I would say-- LK: --create baskets as well? DC: Uh, yeah. Traditionally, mostly it was the women and the girls, okay? Because you&#039 ; ve got to think about--before contact, especially here in California, we&#039 ; re the last native people that were contacted as they came west-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―our baskets were used for cooking, for storage, for gifting, for birthing, for death. And that was our--they were utilized for everything. And that&#039 ; s why they can say that &quot ; Mission baskets were woven so tight that they can hold water.&quot ; LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Well, yes and no. The only reason why they can hold water is that the deer grass in what they&#039 ; ve coiled around swells. [laughs] LK: Oh. DC: So, but they also had the--and when they cooked in them, they used another plant that we do. It&#039 ; s more fire resistant. And that&#039 ; s your Trius lobata, or your sumac. And that&#039 ; s kind of―it&#039 ; s white. Have you ever seen baskets that have more of a white bottom to it? LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That&#039 ; s because it&#039 ; s usually with sumac, and that one has a resistance to fire. But, only be--resistance, how can I say this--fire tolerant but not to a point. When they cooked in baskets, the cooking baskets, they were done with a stick that they&#039 ; d keep moving [circles her right arm as if stirring], and they were used with river rocks, hot rocks in there. Central northern California used lava rocks a lot, but that had been tumbled in the rivers. But the ones that are here, we would probably get the smooth river rocks, and then you heat them up and then you put them into the basket, and you have to keep stirring them [makes a stirring motion with her right hand] into that food. Men probably did the baskets that were, um, that were for fishing, like the fish traps, or your great big, huge granaries,―LK: Oh, yeah. DC: Okay, on that? And they&#039 ; re made out of the willow. Um, they didn&#039 ; t make them--northern California, they made &#039 ; em a lot of out of the different plants up there, the branches there. But, almost all of them are made out of willow, you know, because it was pliable to work with. But, that&#039 ; s your bigger gathering baskets or fish traps, etc., you know. But mainly, it&#039 ; s mostly the women. But men did do that. We do have men today that are top weavers, um, so, we even have one in our tribe that&#039 ; s a fantastic weaver [chuckles]. LK: So, it&#039 ; s a form of functional art. I mean, &#039 ; cuz it is a form of art. That&#039 ; s what-- DC: Well, it didn&#039 ; t become a form of art until it--until I would say, after contact-- LK: Right. DC: --because it was a utility that we had to use, you know. It was something. LK: Right. It was functional. DC: Yeah, and I say, you know, when pots and pans came out, I, I would have been one that threw the baskets away. [laughs] Let&#039 ; s use a pot, too, you know. LK: [laughs] DC: It&#039 ; s just like when you gather your foods, you know. I gather the acorn and I make that wiiwish, we call it, the acorn mush. I use a processor to crack all my--you know, to mix it up, you know, and get the nuts, ground it down. You know, if you ever see these, um,--how can I say these--we call them gathering, gathering spots or metates are these big rocks that have the holes in them--the grinding area, they call &#039 ; em grinding stones, grinding-- Can you imagine the woman that&#039 ; s sitting there, or a child, or whatever, pounding acorn to get a meal out of it, you know, to get it real fine like a flour. And, and how long they pound it up there to get those holes in there. How old! You can just tell the age of the--by looking at these grinding areas, or grinding rocks that you see, how, how hard they must have done it, so it just--it didn&#039 ; t happen overnight, to make those holes, you know, in those rocks. It had to be― LK: Right. DC: [gesturing in a pounding motion] ―years and years of processing. And, uh, I&#039 ; ve tried it. We have two in our backyard, and I didn&#039 ; t last five minutes. Raising that rock, that pestle, over my head and pounding the acorn, okay? I mean, I couldn&#039 ; t, after that, I couldn&#039 ; t raise my hand after five minutes, or even three minutes. My mom was laughing at me out there― LK: [chuckles] DC: ―you know, and I said &quot ; Our women must have had--the women must have had shoulders and-- LK: Strong arms. DC: --biceps, strong arms, to do that, daily, every day, to get the acorn to get it ready for the mush because that was a staple for the people, you know, because the acorn--wiiwish, we call it--or the, um, what do they call it, with the Kumeyaay, um--we call it wiiwish, they call it, um, okay, I&#039 ; ve got to think about it. I know it starts with an &#039 ; s.&#039 ; But anyway, um, everyday. Because, see, that&#039 ; s 100% protein. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The acorn is 100% protein. So, it was a staple and it was also a replacement for when they didn&#039 ; t have any meat, you know, so it was always used. So, when these processors came through, they said &quot ; Diania, how come you don&#039 ; t do it the traditional way?&quot ; I said &quot ; Uh-uh&quot ; [shaking her head] I said &quot ; my ancestors would have popped in that, those electrical things to plug in, they would have used it too.&quot ; I said &quot ; There&#039 ; s no way I&#039 ; m going to go out there and you know, [she and Linda start laughing] and pound.&quot ; I mean it&#039 ; s kind of like a joke but it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s--you know, you know, when progress comes, I&#039 ; m sure they, they would have--they wouldn&#039 ; t have stayed with their old ways. That&#039 ; s how I look at it. [chuckles] LK: Circling back, you mentioned a few institutions like Cal State San Marcos, The Discovery Center in Carlsbad, CIBA, and you&#039 ; re part of the Pesticide― DC: Oh, Tribal― LK: ―with the National Parks? DC: Well, I belong also to the Tribal Pesticide Program Council through EPA. And that&#039 ; s because of the pesticides and insecticides and stuff that effect our, our plants. A lot of people don&#039 ; t realize that, when they see our traditional plants, they think they&#039 ; re weeds. LK: Oh. DC: And they&#039 ; ll spray them. Or also, that, um―there&#039 ; s drifts that happen and if you have native plants that are growing near there, and you&#039 ; re not aware of the native plants that are there, and if how they&#039 ; re spraying, and if the wind comes up [she makes a &quot ; whoosh&quot ; sound, and waves her hand in a broad sweep to indicate wind over field], the drift will go over there. There&#039 ; s no signs that tell you that &quot ; Hey, we&#039 ; re going to be spraying today!&quot ; LK: Mm-hmm. DC: County doesn&#039 ; t even tell you that, I mean, unless they come around, you know. The mosquitoes, like in Central California, Sacramento, they post it, because with all those rice fields that they have up there, they have to. They have to do that, spraying for the mosquitoes. And they do it by helicopter. And I&#039 ; ve been up there when they&#039 ; ve done that, and they&#039 ; ve got notices all over―&quot ; Shut Your Windows&quot ; , &quot ; Shut Your House&quot ; , &quot ; Stay in Your House Between This Hour and This Hour&quot ; ― because they&#039 ; re coming in and just sprayin&#039 ; and it goes all over your cars, etc., out there. In the University of Davis, Woodland, in that area. So, but they don&#039 ; t do that too much down here, okay. So, when you don&#039 ; t know about it, and then you see the plants and you&#039 ; re going to go through it, you don&#039 ; t know if it&#039 ; s been sprayed or anything, or drifted on. And then you pick it, and then you get it, and you put it in your mouth, or whatever, you smell it to see if it is, you get hit. And I&#039 ; ve had, that&#039 ; s how I got into pesticides. I went to pick a plant that I thought that the only way you can identify it is to smell it, so I popped it [gestures breaking a stem open] like you know you see you pop it, and I stuffed it up one nostril and within five minutes my whole side of my face went red [gestures a swipe across right side of her face]. Rushed in to Rincon Indian Health Center. They said &quot ; Diania, what did you do?&quot ; I says &quot ; okay, this is where I was at.&quot ; And, I had a chemical reaction, that it was sprayed, that it somehow got sprayed. And so I was on―the first time I got steroids, and shot with steroids and it&#039 ; s five-four-three-two-one [gestures counting on fingers], you know, you&#039 ; re taking all those pills, five days. Found out that the golf courses are the worst [chuckles] people, or development, or whatever, that use herbicides, pesticides, insecticides, any type of your &quot ; cides&quot ; they said, because they want to keep their grass green and they want to keep their flowers beautiful and colorful. They don&#039 ; t want any rodents. They don&#039 ; t want anything upsetting that golf course out there. And if you have any native plants that are near there, uh, they&#039 ; re probably going to get hit with that type of thing. And the golf course is another one that doesn&#039 ; t tell you that they&#039 ; re spraying. I don&#039 ; t, I&#039 ; ve never gone by a golf course that said &quot ; Hey, we&#039 ; re spraying today. There&#039 ; s a sign.&quot ; And I worry about the people that are out there golfing, okay. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, and I love to watch golf. Don&#039 ; t get me wrong. I mean, I enjoy, I&#039 ; m not a golfer but I love watching the Masters and stuff. And it goes through my head, when these guys are out there, and the women, you know, and they&#039 ; re walking in it, but you don&#039 ; t know if they&#039 ; ve been told about the spraying, or you know, if they have an asthma thing, or, or something like that. So what happened was that I got into pesticide with CIBA. [chuckles, and reaches to her left for a brochure] So then I was working, we worked with a brochure [laughs, and shows for the camera a brochure, then reads the front of it] they call, it&#039 ; s called &quot ; Pesticides: What Basket Weavers Should Know.&quot ; But, this doesn&#039 ; t just tell you for basket weavers. It&#039 ; s for everybody― LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―okay? And the contact people [flips the brochure over, and points to the back side of the brochure] like for here in Southern California, you&#039 ; ve got the contact if you&#039 ; ve had this. It just tells you what to look for on native plants, if they look dead, if they&#039 ; re doing anything. [opens brochure and looks inside] I&#039 ; m trying to get EPA right now to try to start making us some more of these, but if I have some more, [turns the inside of the brochure to face the camera] like if I gave you, you know, some handouts that you could make your own, you know. They don&#039 ; t have to be in color. [closes brochure, but still holds it up] But, it&#039 ; s just an awareness about pesticides when you&#039 ; re out there. And it, you don&#039 ; t have to be gathering. You can just be taking a trail ride out there, or hiking. Your animals could come back with pesticides or insecticides on them, and then you have your kids rubbing them [gestures petting an animal], and playing with them, and hugging them, and then you wonder also why your child is coming out with a rash. Why are they coughing? Why are they sneezing? And so, most of the time, it&#039 ; s some type of spraying and it&#039 ; s out there. So I sit on that, that, across the United States, we&#039 ; ve got all the tribes. But the bigger tribes like the, your Black Feet and your Crow, etc. you know, they, they lease their land, because they&#039 ; ve got millions of acres on their reservations. So they lease their lands to Montanyo [sounds unsure]. One of that does soy beans, and corn, and all these big guys. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But they need to have the pesticides, but they&#039 ; re trying to regulate it more so especially on native ground or Indian country, because, um, they don&#039 ; t want to be digesting it. They don&#039 ; t want this corn and everything that is going out to the public to be digested, because if you go on to a lot of your other farms and stuff like this, they&#039 ; re not telling you what the pest―what is being used. But the, in the Indian country, they want to make sure it&#039 ; s safe. They don&#039 ; t want to get sick. They don&#039 ; t want their own families to get sick. So, it&#039 ; s a big political thing. But what had happened in northern California, how this--how CIBA became involved in the 90s, about &#039 ; 93, is that the weavers in northern California get their―they use a lot of roots. LK: Mmm-- DC: And they use a lot of willow roots. So, during the―on the rivers of northern California, they go high. But when they recede down, that&#039 ; s when the roots stick out from the, from the banks where all the willow trees are growing. And so they go into the water, and they&#039 ; re picking from the banks of the river, all the roots coming out [gesturing pulling something towards her]. LK: Uh-huh. DC: Okay? When you kind of think of, when the water is high [gestures raising up as in water level], this is where the roots are going. They&#039 ; re going to get water for the, for the trees. Well, industry up nor―up, up river, where they call, where they, where it is coming down into the river, they were dumping chemicals into the water-- LK: Hmmm-- DC: --as a dump. You&#039 ; re talking about the lumber mills, some of the uh, other industrial things are doing it. That&#039 ; s what was stuck in the salmon, also. And so the weavers were doing it. Then all of a sudden they were finding their elders the weavers were getting cancer around their mouth [gesturing around her mouth] LK: Oh, no. DC: And they were getting cancer inside. They were losing their teeth [pointing at her teeth]. And they couldn&#039 ; t figure out why. Because it wasn&#039 ; t just happening to just one tribe. It was happening to all the ones that, that were gathering, you know. You&#039 ; re talking the Pomo, the Uroquois, the Hupas, the Kuroks. All the ones that use this type of material. And so in &#039 ; 93, they found out that, they had EPA come out. They had this whole thing. They wrote a paper on it, a risk assessment, and found out that it was chemicals in the water when they tested the waters on these big ones. And so that started, for CIBA anyway, with the pesticides-- LK: Huh. DC: --to get on there, to be more sort of a―― how can I― a public, you know, awareness. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You can only educate. You can&#039 ; t stop it. You can only, you know. That&#039 ; s why you have all these, um, lawsuits right now, happening in northern California and their waters. Look at the salmon. What&#039 ; s happening, not just in California, but in Oregon and Washington with― because of the chemicals. Uh, you can&#039 ; t, sometimes you can&#039 ; t even eat, you know, some of that salmon because they can&#039 ; t even go upstream, because when they come upstream, they come back sick. And the worst one is in Alaska. LK: Right. DC: See, people don&#039 ; t want to hear about Alaska. But everything that we use down here in, in, in the &quot ; mainland&quot ; they call it, the chemicals, anything, okay, it all goes into our atmosphere, right? [points upward with both hands]. I mean, you spray, and it&#039 ; s going to go up. LK: Yep. DC: Okay, when it goes up, where does it go? It goes to the Poles. [gestures as if touching top and bottom of a globe] North Pole, north pole is getting it mostly. South Pole is not as much, because they don&#039 ; t get that drift like they did. But what it did, it collects up here [circles her hand in a rotating motion] in the atmosphere, and what it is, over Alaska in the Arctic area. That&#039 ; s why it&#039 ; s cleaning out too. Because it&#039 ; s just going around, all these chemicals. It, it forms a warmth and a heat. And that why, that&#039 ; s what&#039 ; s, and now when it rains up there, it drops down [laughs, and gestures as if something is falling] into their land and into their trees, and into their plants, and they&#039 ; re contaminated. And it&#039 ; s all because of us down here, meaning, I&#039 ; m saying &quot ; us&quot ; , mainland and you know, uh, North, Central, South America, all of us, you know, Europe, that using all these different chemicals and things like this, and drifts up [raises her hands up], collects in that atmosphere up there [circles in the air with her left hand], goes to the North Pole. It&#039 ; s going around and around. It rains, or whatever, and it comes down, [indicates rain coming down, with both hands] and that&#039 ; s why Alaska is having all those problems right now with their food [gestures as if counting on her left hand], climate change, the heating, etc. And, uh, a lot of it is the use of chemicals and pesticides. LK: Well, what started out as a― DC: [chuckles] LK: ―lessons in patience for you― DC: [bursts out laughing] LK: You&#039 ; ve expanded your knowledge to all aspects of basketry and, and working with other organizations. So, I know those aren&#039 ; t the only ones you work with, though, and I can list a couple just to jog your memory. I know you work with Camp Pendleton. DC: Oh, well yeah, well, Camp Pendleton is― LK: And Daly Ranch. DC: Daly Ranch. Well, Daly Ranch was because [sighs] I went to, I went to be a docent. Okay? Because I had to find something to do after, you know, I, and that I, before I had my surgery, I became a docent, and I wanted to do the trails. Okay? The native trails. But when I had, after my surgery, I couldn&#039 ; t do the walking anymore. And so they did have a small &quot ; Indian program&quot ; you know, on there. And one of the rangers I, you know, I, I love him dearly, he&#039 ; s still there, we worked together, he was the one that was doing the Native American aspect of the Daly Ranch, what they would give to the public and school district. Fifteen minutes [gestures making air quotes] is all he would have. So I went through his training, on the docents, and he brought in a native person from souther―from Kumeyaay territory, I think, a weaver. I can&#039 ; t think who the weaver is now. She did a display and stuff. And so Ranger Robert, I think I mentioned him, he did a lot, because of his sons were in Boy Scouts, you know, Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Eagle Scouts, and they had to do a lot of the native areas of, on there. So he made a lot of the artifacts that the Daly Ranch uses and I use right now for exhibit. And he learned about the plants, and the foods, etc. Well, he went to serve wiiwish, acorn. And when he served it, it was great. And I just went &quot ; What?&quot ; , you know. And it, it was [gesturing as if saying &#039 ; no&#039 ; with her fingers] I don&#039 ; t know. And I&#039 ; m going asking &quot ; How did you do this?&quot ; Well, he used the acorn, but he didn&#039 ; t use the acorns that we normally would use. He used a different type of acorn. And how he fixed it, or whatever. And so, when we had our barbeque when we graduated from the docent class, I went home [laughs] and I made the ______________. This is supposed to look like, okay, you know, our wiiwish does that. And he says &quot ; well, teach me!&quot ; So we started working together. Then they asked me if I would come in and do the native American part, you know, with the Daly Ranch. Daly Ranch through the 7th graders and the whole school district, in Escondido School District, they run the 7th graders through there for 6 weeks, in the Daly Ranch, twice a week, like a Tuesday and a Wednesday, from 8 o&#039 ; clock until 2. And we do about two hundred some a day. LK: Wow! DC: I&#039 ; m the native American part of it, and they do plants, and then they do insects, and then they do the large predators, you know, and then they, the tricks. But, I&#039 ; m the native American portion of it. It started out as 15 minutes, and now all of a sudden, now I&#039 ; m doing about 35 minutes, and just expanding it-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --to get them knowing that this was our first―you know, Daly Ranch is on the, one the land of native peoples. There&#039 ; s, there&#039 ; s areas out there on Daly Ranch that the public can&#039 ; t see, that know that they&#039 ; re―they live there. They have artifacts, etc., on that. So, um, and I got asked to, to do that. It&#039 ; s all voluntarily. If I get paid from anything for doing that―I&#039 ; ve been doing that going on 16 years now―it&#039 ; s a surprise for me, because they do it through grants. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: I started out, like I said, volunteering, and it had expanded it to bigger working with Fred Wood, who&#039 ; s a retired school teacher, you know, from a junior high, 8th grade. And I started with my cousin, Kathy Wallace, who&#039 ; s our story teller now, and her son Brandon―he was about 9 or 10 years old―we would do it together. Well, it got to a point to where she expanded out [gestures expansion thrusting her right hand out away from her], you know, he got older. And so, I had Teeter Romero used to come down for me and help me, from San Juan Capistrano. And then, also now, I got it for myself and it&#039 ; s hard to get people to want to take it over. Because the first question they ask &quot ; Well, how much do you get?&quot ; And I says &quot ; Nope.&quot ; I says &quot ; I can&#039 ; t guarantee you anything on that. If I get paid, it&#039 ; s a surprise for me at the end of the six weeks, depending on how much the grant through--It&#039 ; s through a grant, that they get― LK: Right. DC: ―that. That&#039 ; s to the Friends of the Daly Ranch. Even though the Daly Ranch is owned by the city of Escondido, this Friends of the Daly Ranch and the docents do it because of they want to. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The only ones that really get paid on there is the rangers, because they&#039 ; re employees of the city of Escondido. LK: Right. DC: And uh― LK: But that&#039 ; s not the only institution that you do work. You, you go to elementary schools and― DC: Well, yeah, I have. I did elementary schools. I think, you know, we do―like San Elijo. We&#039 ; ve been doing that for seven years, and that&#039 ; s during that one basket that I just showed you, with the Cherokee style. We do third graders there. [sighs] Before they built that new elementary school, we were doing anywhere from 2 to 300 hundred a day, in well, one day. We had it for 35 minutes, at 70, at the time. And then, because they had a program going. Kathy would be the story teller. They had adobe making. They had―and so these children are going [gestures in a round circle with her right hand] all day, every half hour they&#039 ; re going to another, another thing. I would have four weavers come in to help me. And then we would give a quick 10-minutes, 5-minute thing with parent volunteers, to come in and help to, to and I think you&#039 ; ve even done it before, [chuckles] to just help these students. And so you&#039 ; d have all these third graders in one room, sittin&#039 ; on the floor, on these things, ten, ten to a circle so I know it&#039 ; s seventy, because we had seventy cir―seven circles in there. We&#039 ; d done seventy at the time, forty-five at the time, and then within thirty-five minutes, you know, they&#039 ; re done. If they didn&#039 ; t finish this basket [holds up small basket which can fit in the palm of her hand] in their time, then they would take them with them and complete it in their ar--in their art department students. So we&#039 ; ve been doing that for quite a while. I&#039 ; ve done the thing with Cal State San Marcos with their students up there, giving the demonstrations, etc., given a talk. And then even teaching the students, you know, the basketry. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Same thing with the senior center, in El Corazon [gestures to Linda]. LK: El Corazon. DC: We just did that for three days, and they really enjoyed it. LK: We cannot leave out one other entity, which was the Mission-- DC: --Oh! LK: --San Luis Rey. How could we forget that. DC: [laughs] You know, she&#039 ; s sees, she&#039 ; s getting me into the basketry thing, here. Um, San Luis Rey--people don&#039 ; t understand. San Luis Rey is one of the missions here that is not part of the diocese, or owned by the Catholic Church, per se. They&#039 ; re owned by the Franciscan order of the Catholic Church. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Or, errr, I&#039 ; m not--I&#039 ; m a Catholic, but I&#039 ; m not that kind. I&#039 ; m not a practicing Catholic. Let&#039 ; s put it that way. But, um, so they&#039 ; re owned by the Franciscans. San Luis Rey, Santa Barbara, and there&#039 ; s one more, and I&#039 ; m going to better learn that one too because there&#039 ; s three missions in the state of California that are not part of the &quot ; Catholic.&quot ; San Juan Capistrano is part of the Orange County diocese. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And they bring in the most money for the missions in the state of California. San Juan Capistrano does, because you&#039 ; ve got to pay to get in, you know, and everything else. But anyway. The friars--well, they&#039 ; re not--they&#039 ; re friars--the Franciscan order, um, are there, at the San Luis Rey Mission. You don&#039 ; t know that they&#039 ; re there, because they&#039 ; re not really public other than when you see &#039 ; em walking around in their brown robes. They have a retreat there. They live there. They study there. They go through their schooling, sometimes, there at the San Luis Rey Mission. And I was notified by Gwen, the director, and Helena, whose at the museum, that they were having a retreat there. And they wanted a activity, and so Gwen says &quot ; Contact Diania, and see if they want to do a basketry.&quot ; Well, Father David, or Brother David--he&#039 ; s up at Santa Barbara now--he used to be here at San Luis Rey, and my brother used to work with him. And he knew I did baskets. That&#039 ; s why he probably agreed. But these Franciscans were coming from all over the world. They weren&#039 ; t just coming from the United States. They were coming as novices ; ones that are almost going to graduate into their order ; some that were graduated already into the order ; some that were retiring from the order. Some they didn&#039 ; t speak English. And, um, there was forty, almost fifty of them. LK: Forty-six. DC: Forty-six of them, and they were there for a week [chuckles] And they asked &quot ; Diania, would you mind doing, you know, a demonstration and talking about the basketry, or people, etc.?&quot ; My brother videoed it, you know, and I haven&#039 ; t really even seen it yet. I think he gave you a copy, right? LK: It&#039 ; s great. DC: Okay. I have to give Roberta--not Roberta, but Reinette and Ella Sue, I think, also. But, um, I says &quot ; Okay, I need four weavers, and uh, to do this.&quot ; And we did that in the back of the mission, and here I was expecting--when we were setting up, all of us were expecting--there&#039 ; s Linda Kallas, Ella Sue Snyder (she&#039 ; s a Acjachemen), Reinette (I can&#039 ; t pronounce her last name. My cousin--Reinette Omah, Olvera, but I can&#039 ; t pro--) LK: Olvera. DC: Yeah, but she goes by that Italian married-- LK: Contreras. DC: No, no. It starts with an &quot ; A&quot ; [indicates a letter &quot ; A&quot ; as if writing in the air]. Anyway. LK: Okay. DC: And you, and me, okay. Linda was--Linda, who was going to interview me, she goes &quot ; Me?&quot ; and I says &quot ; Oh yeah. You know how to do these! You&#039 ; ve been sittin&#039 ; with us for a while. You can come in here.&quot ; And we&#039 ; re going to do the Cherokee style basket. I just gave a talk about our traditional materials, etc. So, we get all set up and here come these men, you know, coming through. You know, I, I was expecting them to come into--with their robes on. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, their brown robes. That&#039 ; s what I was expecting. Here these men come in. They&#039 ; re in shorts. They got T-shirts on that say &quot ; Surf&#039 ; s Up!&quot ; you know. All these different things coming home with these hats, sandals, barefoot, you know. I mean, they&#039 ; re coming from the retreat area, you know, tennis shoes on, and all different ages. And it was interesting because I&#039 ; m going &quot ; Whoa, okay.&quot ; You would have, you would have put them on the street. You would not have known that they were friars, okay. And, uh, like I said, all ages. They had a--we had a good time, laughing, etc. Like I said, we do have that, um, if you knew my brother did with that. They were all anxious. They made beautiful baskets. [laughs] LK: They were so impressed with you, and um-- DC: You know. LK: They were so grateful and so full of gratitude for learning that skill-- DC: Yeah. Well, we took a lot-- LK: They really enjoyed it. DC: Well, we took a picture, a group picture, at the end and then we had all their baskets on top of that one rocker area. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And you can see that these baskets--[turning to her left, and reaching for something] I showed you this [holds up the little basket that she showed previously in the interview] and this is mine. But that doesn&#039 ; t mean that you&#039 ; re going to make the same thing like this. Your basket is, is going to be completely different. Even though they start out the same, your basket will be with what you create with your hands. [puts down basket] And so that&#039 ; s what they were really impressed with, because we had some beautiful baskets. You had some real nice round ones [gestures a round object]. You had flat ones [gestures flat object]. You had long ones [gestures a tall object] and they just had a good time. LK: They cherished them, right? DC: Oh, it was a--it was--it was--it was rewarding, you know, on that. But that&#039 ; s what happens when we do that. We did it with the seniors-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --out there, and they all thought that they were going to be making their own little ba--baskets that we showed them. And then when they finally was looking at it, even the men there, you know, everything was different. And so, that&#039 ; s what I enjoyed about the baskets. Even with the kids, you know, they don&#039 ; t-- No two baskets are alike. LK: Exactly. And, expanding on that, we have the elementary school named Pablo Tac after a Luiseño native that was educated in the Mission. But also, you&#039 ; re--you have an opportunity to demonstrate there coming up, correct? DC: Yes, coming up on November 4th, 2022. I&#039 ; ll be demonstrating and so will Roberta--hopefully Reinette will be there--traditional weaving. We&#039 ; re not going to be teaching. That&#039 ; s probably, hopefully coming up next year. LK: Yes. DC: You know, on that. We just had the demonstration also at Camp Pendleton. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Uh, there. I&#039 ; m a docent for the Santa Margarita Ranch and Lost Forest Ranch, docent there at Camp Pendleton. But I&#039 ; ve been working with the Archaeology department since, uh, ugh, &#039 ; 90s with Stan Berryman and then Danielle [Page], and now Kelly Bracken is in charge of it so--. Because we have a lot of sites there on ran--on Camp Pendleton. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: People don&#039 ; t realize it, that we&#039 ; ve got over 600 some building sites there, and sites, and sacred sites, etc., on Camp Pendleton, so we&#039 ; re kept close with the--they&#039 ; re kept close with the different tribes. And since I&#039 ; m the weaver in the native plants, I have a different aspect of it. I try to make that, if the plants are out there, please, you know, don&#039 ; t do this with them, and stuff. So, they notify us that if we have native plants there, do you want us to move them. Do you want to collect them, etc. They do have a native garden there that we do collect the deer grass from, which is up there by the pavilion, behind the new hospital. Um, that way I know they&#039 ; re not being sprayed, when we go there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: We just did elderberry tree, um, [chuckles] gathering from the berries, and I made some for your, for you for your husband. I thought I was making jelly, and it ended up being syrup. But he likes, he loves it, you know, &#039 ; cuz we gathered there at Camp Pendleton, because [chuckles again], because then I know that, um, also those aren&#039 ; t being sprayed. And, so there&#039 ; s different areas by Camp Pendleton. Plus, with the cultural, okay. And why I started with the, the new General, the Commander-in-Chief, there, at --I can&#039 ; t think of it. I just--I worked with her, and um, was--a-- how?--docent there for the Santa Margarita Ranch. They were going to be the ones dealing with the party. She had her fiesta there, a couple weeks ago. And, um, I didn&#039 ; t want to just be the docent dressed in the--how can I say this?-- We dressed in this Spanish shawl. I don&#039 ; t know if you&#039 ; ve seen the docents from center. [gestures to someone other than Linda Kallas, seated to her left] You&#039 ; ve been there, right? And, uh--Tanis. And, uh, we have that costume [still looking to the other person] or the regalia that they use. I&#039 ; m comin&#039 ; in, because I put these on [hold up her necklace] and I&#039 ; m, you know, trying to keep the Native American thing going there. And you heard me [points to person off camera, and continues to talk to him/her] this last meeting, you know, and Larry was over here [points to opposite direction, and laughs]. Uh, it&#039 ; s that, uh, react? That we&#039 ; ve forgotten, you know, on that. And they do think--they kind of forget us. But anyway, and so I says [still talking to the person off camera] &quot ; I&#039 ; m not going to be a docent. I just--can I come in and do traditional weaving, you know, with our people,&quot ; with her. And she just said [shaking her head]--she says &quot ; heck yes, please, let&#039 ; s come in&quot ; and stuff. So, um, I had the drapes on there. I wasn&#039 ; t going to go San Luis Rey Band because we were all San Luis Rey Band members that were going to do this traditional weaving demonstration. But we&#039 ; re all CIBA members also. So, I used this California Basket weavers --uh, weaving drape on our table. They put us up there, you know, with the rest of them, and, um, I had Mark, who is our weaver, one of our top weavers for our tribe. He had--he was demonstrating his baskets. We were all doing a demonstration, and, and appreciating that, you know, on there. That&#039 ; s the last thing we did on the traditional, you know, weaving thing with Camp Pendleton. Then we&#039 ; re going to do this one November 4. LK: And then the Jubilation of the Valley Festival? DC: Oh yeah, we&#039 ; re going to have, coming up in November-- LK: --the Luiseño Day. Mm-hmm-- DC: --Spirit of the Valley-- LK: --Spirit of the Valley. DC: --with Studio Ace. And we&#039 ; re going to be doing baskets there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And I&#039 ; m going to be doing teaching the Cherokee style-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --okay? It&#039 ; s not gonna--it&#039 ; s not Luiseño style. And so we&#039 ; re going to be doing, uh, [sighs] all day [laughs]-- LK: And you&#039 ; ve been invited-- DC: --from 11 to 3. LK: --to do basket weaving at a senior dance at the-- DC: Aw, come on now, [gestures pushing away from herself with her right hand] I know. LK: [laughs] DC: It&#039 ; s just a--thank you, Linda. Um, that&#039 ; s December 15th. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And that&#039 ; s coming in because of the senior center over there. That&#039 ; s just an activity they wanted us to do. Plus, we do basket traditional weaving in front of the Mission, hopefully, every 4th Sunday of the month. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But sometimes we don&#039 ; t, because we have other things to do. So it&#039 ; s almost a contact--they--a website, or contact one of us to do that. We do it at Rancho Guajome, but we&#039 ; ll kind of travel with our weaving person. Um, one of the things I want to say is that I do get feedback sometimes from our own Indian people--&quot ; why are you in front of the Mission, Diania?&quot ; okay, you know. Because they see a pictures of the background where we&#039 ; re weaving, and, um--&quot ; why are you doing it on the, on the Mission grounds?&quot ; I mean, you have this animosity with some of our people that have gone through the Mission system and their ancestors were really treated bad, etc. I&#039 ; m not going to say the missions were the best things that happened to the indigenous people in the state of California, or even in the other missionaries throughout the, throughout the different tribal people-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --in Indian country. But, I&#039 ; m trying to tell them &quot ; I&#039 ; ll let you know. I&#039 ; m not there to, to praise the Mission. Don&#039 ; t get me wrong, okay? I have my aspects with them, too, but I&#039 ; m there--we&#039 ; re there, really, to respect and honor our ancestors that are buried there.&quot ; I&#039 ; ve got a lot of family that&#039 ; s buried there in that old cemetery. I know our ancestors had built that mission and helped it. We&#039 ; ve got a lot of ancestors that are buried in those grounds that aren&#039 ; t in the cemeteries. When you had your epidemics, the pox, the small pox epidemic-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --there&#039 ; s a lot of burials in, on those grounds at the Mission that had to do multiple burials real fast. So, we&#039 ; re there honoring our people. I&#039 ; m not there to honor the Mission. And, I have to let them know that. I mean, don&#039 ; t get me wrong. I was raised with the Catholic there. My mom went to school there. My great-grandfather, he was part, you know. Every Sunday it seemed like the Father was always there in his house at the ranch there in the valley, having dinner. But I don&#039 ; t really have that, um, hatred, or whatever you want to call it-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --to the Mission system. Yes, they know that they&#039 ; ve done wrong. My brother and I sit on the committee for the 225 anniversary that&#039 ; s coming up, honoring San Luis Rey Mission. I&#039 ; m there on it, and so is he, to make sure the indigenous people aren&#039 ; t forgotten. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They&#039 ; ve got to have something that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s still representing, you know, them with the ethnic group. We have our powwow there that&#039 ; s been there for 23 years, you know. We just haven&#039 ; t had it since Covid. And that&#039 ; s another thing that&#039 ; s on the Mission grounds. You have some of the indigenous people who will not come to our powwow because it&#039 ; s on Indi--on mission grounds. But, to me, that&#039 ; s personal for them. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The Mission has not been at a controversy for us. Yes, we know some of our ancestors were treated wrong, you know. You can walk in that Mission, and, um, you can see different things that, um, and the stories you hear, you know, and the longondria &lt ; sic&gt ; that&#039 ; s going down there, where they had to do the washing and stuff. You&#039 ; ve got Pablo Tac. You know, he came from that Mission, and was taught, who can, you know, going back to Barcelona, you know, and Rome also, and is buried over there, and died. But, um, you--we--how can I say this? San Luis Rey Mission, they, the Luiseños around the Mission San Luis Rey weren&#039 ; t as-- LK: It was a-- DC: --progressive as LK: --Luiseño village, correct? DC: Yes, it was a Luiseño village there, but they didn&#039 ; t attempt to burn it down like the Kumeyaay did, at the old--in San Diego. They burned that mission down three times [holds up three fingers]. But it comes with people, and how they took it, um, as a, as a rewards system, or whatever. Okay? They were fed! Can you imagine? I mean, ee were nomads and gatherers and movers. Meaning nomadic, it&#039 ; s not like we moved all over [gestures in a sweeping motion]. It was like we went from ocean to the mountains [points from right to left, indicating movement from west to east] to gather and to the desert [points forward]. You see what I&#039 ; m saying. As being nomadic. We didn&#039 ; t have &quot ; a permanent&quot ; village. We knew what village we came from, but if we had to go, you had people that probably stayed there, the elders, and then the rest went out to gather. But we weren&#039 ; t a warring people. Sure, we probably fought with the Kumeyaay and any others that came through. But with the Kumeyaay people, they were warring people. Now, they came from the, from the Colorado area. I mean, you&#039 ; re looking at warriors, you know, came across, and when they were doing that with the missions and stuff, you know, you--they--it was on their land. They, they didn&#039 ; t like it. They, you know, they, and they, to me, with San Diego Mission, um, and you read the history on that, it, it was, it was harsh. Where here, Father Peri --&#039 ; cuz remember, San Luis Rey was the 19th mission. It was the one that--it was at almost the end that it was built. Okay? And San Luis Capistrano really was the 2nd one. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then they come around there [circles her arm] and they built San Luis Rey, 19-what, a number 19, in 1798. Okay? So, you&#039 ; re looking at all these other missions that were built way before that. Father Peri, he--his system was more with the native people. Yes, you could come, but he let &#039 ; em build around him, also. But it was not the Fathers that were chased in the mission, the Indians. It was the soldiers at the--that&#039 ; s who were supposedly protecting the Fathers. They were the ones that went out and chased the Indians down. They were the ones that did the punishments, when they had their, their, their soldiers--the ones that were in charge--they took it to their head, you know, I mean, to do the punishment, because as far as native indigenous people were below the Mexican people. You had the Indians [gestures making layers, indicating layers of hierarchy], then you had the Mexicans, the Spaniards, you understand, that, that-- LK: Were higher, you know. DC: --hierarchy. So, um, I don&#039 ; t have that too much on there, you know, with that. Everybody has their own. I have it because the missions only because they kept &#039 ; em down [gestures downward with her right hand], and they did use &#039 ; em--I wouldn&#039 ; t--I don&#039 ; t use the word slave, but they--I guess, slave labor. They were the laborers, where else they really didn&#039 ; t--they didn&#039 ; t get paid. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, on there. And then when the missions were done, and the secularization, when they did that, they were lost. They cried, you know. I mean, they were starving, because of that--and then what had happened, the ranchers got us here, Picos, the Marrons, the Couts, all of the rest of them--they went and destroyed the mission. They were, they were tearing it apart. They were taking the beams. They were taking all the statues. They were taking the different things, and using them to build. You know, you get some of these ranchers, they have some of the beams on that are from--that are from the Mission. The artifacts. LK: Wild. DC: You know. But you don&#039 ; t hear that side of the story. That&#039 ; s why at Camp Pendleton and Rancho Santa Margarita and them, when it, they hid the stories and that--&quot ; Come on, you guys, you know. Pico wasn&#039 ; t the best guy.&quot ; LK: Mm-hmm. DC: He, he was really one of those really against the Indians. LK: So, in addition to your passion and your education with the basketry, you are like a historian of your people, and the area, and I see that you brought some other materials. Is there anything you want share? DC: [again reaching to the left] Well, one of the things is that, uh, okay, and I know that for you, you&#039 ; re trying to do this. I did study the language [holds up some leaves of paper], but since I didn&#039 ; t--wasn&#039 ; t able to have--speak to somebody, I went through the Pechanga -- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --and they sent me to Cal State--I mean, to Riverside, also to the international classes that was there. But since I didn&#039 ; t have anybody to communicate with [gestures as if transmitting words to another person], it was hard for me. I can read it, and I can probably understand it when they&#039 ; re--when they start talking to me, you know-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --get the words right. But I&#039 ; m fortunate that I did have that. But this is one [looks at paper] of the things that I&#039 ; m going to share--I&#039 ; m going to be sharing this at the, uh, Spirit of the Valley, once they get over there. But it&#039 ; s like this one here, okay? [turns paper toward Linda. The paper is laminated, and has a colored drawing of a deer, with the word &#039 ; şúukat&#039 ; ] You hear that one What&#039 ; s that? LK: Soosh-kah? Soo-kah-- DC: Soos-kwaht, okay? LK: Soos-kwaht. DC: Deer. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Okay. I&#039 ; m just going to be doing that. This is for the children. Ishwoot? [holds up a laminated drawing of a wolf with word &#039 ; ˈíswut&#039 ; ] What&#039 ; s that? Ishwoot. LK: That is a wolf. DC: Yeah, wolf. Okay? And then this is something that I use with kids [holds up a laminated drawing of a grasshopper with word &#039 ; wiˈét&#039 ; ]. Whee-uht. LK: Grasshopper. DC: Or cricket. LK: Or cricket. DC: Yeah. Whee-uht. And so, you see in these names--why I use these, because you see in these names, being with the native kids now, that they&#039 ; re being named this. [holds up a laminated drawing of a bear with word &#039 ; húnwut&#039 ; ] LK: Hunwhat. DC: Hunwhat. LK: It&#039 ; s a bear. DC: It&#039 ; s a bear. Children are being named that now, with these, especially with these names here, with their--for the children. They&#039 ; re proud of being called &#039 ; hun-what.&#039 ; They&#039 ; re proud of being called &#039 ; soos-kwaht,&#039 ; called--proud of being called &#039 ; whee-uht,&#039 ; you know, instead of just being called &quot ; cricket,&quot ; you know, on there. And so that was one of the things that I found I have been proud to do, you know, on that. And then, also, you have &quot ; Tuk-woot&quot ; [holds up a laminated drawing of a cougar with word &#039 ; túˈkwet&#039 ; ]. Who is this? LK: A cougar or mountain lion. DC: It&#039 ; s a cougar, okay? LK: Cougar? DC: You have &#039 ; tuk-woot&#039 ; village, &#039 ; tuk-woot&#039 ; village, &#039 ; tuk-woot&#039 ; court, at Cal State San Marcos! LK: Yes, that&#039 ; s right! DC: Okay? &quot ; Aush-woot?&quot ; [holds up a laminated drawing of a hawk with word &#039 ; áşwut&#039 ; ] I know that&#039 ; s not a [unintelligible] of an eagle, but that&#039 ; s an &#039 ; aush-woot.&#039 ; The eagle. LK: The eagle. DC: Yeah. And these are words that, um, are the alphabet, pretty long, you know, and considered more than 26 letters, that are important to the kids because they can identify with them. You know. I also have a coloring book, and you know, 1-2-3 and stuff like that I&#039 ; m sharing. But one of these [reaches to the left for something else] that I want to end with, if you don&#039 ; t mind, is that if, um, [sighs] in 2004, this is the Heritage Keepers [holds up a magazine entitled &quot ; Heritage Keepers&quot ; ]. This is a magazine coming from the Ramon Learning Center [reads back of magazine] LK: Hmmm. DC: Okay. And, um, it&#039 ; s still going on from Banning, California. And I wrote a poem [opening magazine, and finding page where poem is printed], um, and I wanted to read it and share it with you. Is that okay? LK: Yes! I would love that. DC: Okay. It&#039 ; s that, um, I wrote this poem when I was doing the--learning the Luiseño language, and I had to write this poem because I was, um, trying to pull the words out [gestures as if churning things over in her head] of my head that I knew. And where I was at--it was Teeter Romero and I were up in Rainbow, up there by north of us here. And we were going to go out there to gather Juncus in Gomez Creek area, which is behind Riamb--Rainbow. You gotta go up the mountain. And when we were up there at the top of the hill--it was early in the morning, and we stopped because we looked out towards the valley towards the ocean [points to the left] and that morning it was clear. You can--you could--you could see the, see the ocean shining clear at the, at the other end, which is really not-- [shakes her head]. But then you saw El Moro Kukutuk, okay? That&#039 ; s another story. One day you might have to say it, but Kutukutuk too, is part of our creation story. And you can see that mound really clearly, with the ocean in the background, shimmering, and that mound there in the valley near Camp Pendleton, and Bonsall and Fallbrook area. In this part of our creation story, I got these things in my head as I&#039 ; m looking at it, and I thought of our people. Because of the creation story, of trying to be saved. They were, they--we had the flood, also, in our creation story. And all I could think of, and was watching it, seeing the ocean shimmering, seeing that mound and thinking of &quot ; Oh my God, that&#039 ; s what came up. The ocean came up.&quot ; And the people were running, because the water was coming in and coming in, and they had nothing to save &#039 ; em. And the people from Pechanga were up there on their high point [points up with left hand], which is up there by Rainbow. If you ever go by Pechanga on the back way you&#039 ; ll see the big hill that&#039 ; s up there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That&#039 ; s one of their lookouts, and I don&#039 ; t know that there--the name of it, but it&#039 ; s a point. And they were looking at the people, you know, the Luiseño people in the valley, running. And all they could do was keep singing. Now I don&#039 ; t--I have the words to that song, that they had-- that they started there. But, I don&#039 ; t have that with me right now. But they were singing up there to hopefully save their people. They&#039 ; re crying for them, and trying to save, save their people. Well, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, this mound comes up. And so they were watching their people swimming towards it, and running towards it. And this mound kept coming up, and that&#039 ; s more--El Moro Hill, or Kuktuk. That is a volcano cone. People don&#039 ; t realize that, you know, we do have volcanic areas-- [laughs] LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --in this area. And that&#039 ; s a volcano cone that came up and our people in that valley, meaning my ancestors, okay--were saved. They were able to go on to Tuktuk, El Moro Hill, and come up, and go up there. You can visit that here--uh, that mound or that little knoll or dell, if you want to call it. It&#039 ; s on Indian Rock Road. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It&#039 ; s Sleeping Indian Rock. It&#039 ; s Sleeping Indian Road [scratches head] right there. Part of it&#039 ; s on Camp Pendleton. Part of it&#039 ; s in Fallbrook. And, part of it is owned by the County of San Diego. You can&#039 ; t build on it. You can build on--near it, but you can&#039 ; t build on the Camp Pendleton side, because that&#039 ; s a blind--ammunition dump. And the Navy owns it. Fallbrook owns a third of it, and San Diego County owns a third. There&#039 ; s a trail that you can go up on there, if you want to visit it and go, and there&#039 ; s a hearth on the top that they do celebrations, ceremonies up there. My great-grandmother was born there, at the base of that El Moro Hill. So, yeah, we&#039 ; ve got history in there, and, you know, our aunt used to tell--my aunt, my great aunt, used to tell stories, you know, about that-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --and they used to go, go there. But what I did was wrote a poem as I was doing, uh, looking at it, and I was thinking, my language is going in my head, but I could only pick out some words that I knew at that time. So it&#039 ; s called &quot ; Naqmayam&quot ; and I was saying it--first saying it in Luiseño, then I&#039 ; ll read it again in English, what it meant. LK: Okay. DC: Okay. It says &quot ; Naqmayam. Toonquay qawiinga/noo toowq &#039 ; ataxmi/naqmayam/noo toowq &#039 ; ataxmi heelaqal/&#039 ; ataaxum naqmawun! Popuu&#039 ; uk ponakilvoy/yu&#039 ; pan heth&#039 ; aan/no$uun toonavan &#039 ; ataaxum poomoto/naqmayam! Heelaxam!&quot ; Now, I usually sing this, I know. It&#039 ; s just--it&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s--I usually--it sticks after a while, I&#039 ; m singing it, because I do sing it, at the Mission on All Soul&#039 ; s Day. [chuckles] So, if you come on All Soul&#039 ; s Day, on November 2nd, around 6 o&#039 ; clock, between 6 and 6:30, I&#039 ; ll be doing it and lighting the candles there, and I&#039 ; ll be--I can sing it. And why I like to sing it, it&#039 ; s sometimes I can hear my voice [gestures to her right ear], it bounces off the mission wall. It scared me the first time that it happened-- LK: [chuckles] DC: --because I never had an echo come back like that. And, anyway, &quot ; naqmayam&quot ; means &quot ; listen.&quot ; &quot ; Toonquay qawiinga&quot ; means &quot ; from the rock on the mountain.&quot ; Naqmayam. I see the people. I see the people singing. People listen. The door was closed. Again it will open. My heart will weave among the people. Listen and sing. I wasn&#039 ; t looking at them crying, you know. I was thinking about them singing, and being happy. And the door was closed at one time for us, but it was now opening. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then my heart, at that time, with the weaving, there, my heart will weave among the people. And, um, so it was kind of, you know--and they published it, in that--in that--in there-- LK: It&#039 ; s beautiful. DC: --It kind of gives the story of me. This has happened in 2003 [laughs]. And that&#039 ; s how long ago, with the language. And I&#039 ; m still trying to bring the language back, you know, I mean, we did it with--for a while when we were together with the Rotary Club. But then again I&#039 ; m doing it, trying to get it back with people, and with our people, on that. It&#039 ; s still going on at the Pechanga, with this fantastic Pechanga . I started back with them, way back when, and they started at the preschool. And then, now, they&#039 ; ve taken it all the way up through their 6th grade there on their reservation at Pechanga. They don&#039 ; t speak any English in the classes. All their instructors or the teachers have to learn the language. It&#039 ; s taught in Luiseño. They&#039 ; ve got an agreement with the school district of Temecula, that they follow them all the way through school, all the way through high school, that they have to release them at least, I don&#039 ; t know how many times a week, to be brought in and taught their language, to keep it up. LK: That&#039 ; s wonderful. DC: They take it all the way through high school. But, Pechanga has done really good. Pauma is also―has a class there, you know. Pauma does. Rincon does. Pala, uh, I don&#039 ; t know if Pala does. But, each one has a different, like a dialect, you know. The only sad thing is when you get politics coming in. I&#039 ; m just going to let you guys know. Politics is really deep within the tribes, on there, and um, I&#039 ; m right, you&#039 ; re wrong, etc. And it&#039 ; s sad, because we&#039 ; re all the one people, but that&#039 ; s the way it goes. You&#039 ; re born into being an indigenous people, not just for us here in California, but across the United States. You&#039 ; re born into politics, whether you like it or not. So, um― LK: Well, I just want to close with saying that it&#039 ; s been an honor and absolute pleasure to interview you and listen to you. I want to acknowledge that you went from accounting to weaving to becoming an educator of your pe―of your tribal background, and also a historian, and I think a big part of your legacy is to keep this out there. And you&#039 ; re doing it pretty much on your own. It&#039 ; s not like you have all this, um, Federal money behind you, like the federally recognized tribes, so― DC: We don&#039 ; t have that [shaking her head] LK: ―you do not have that. You&#039 ; re not federally recognized. But I just wanted to honor that in you, and thank you so much for allowing me to do this. DC: Okay. LK: No $uun. DC: Noh [bowing her head, and chuckling] I was going to say No $uun Looviq. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CaudellDiania_KallasLinda_2022-10-17_access.xml CaudellDiania_KallasLinda_2022-10-17_access.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Caudell, Diania. Interview October 27, 2022 Description An account of the resource Interview with Diania Caudell focused on her Native American ancestry as well as her past occupation as an accountant. Also included is her implementation of Native American education in the San Juan Capistrano School District and how her back injury led her to become a basket weaver. The written transcription of this interview also contains a glossary and poem in Luiseño with English translation, written by Caudell in 2003. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-22 Subject The topic of the resource Basket making Education -- Native Americans Luiseño Indians Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-27 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Diania Caudell Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Linda Kallas Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceanside (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Luiseño Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Diania Caudell Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Art and artists Community history Native American experience North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2c516f34374336a003467920b9e6a60e.pdf 5a59759182ca0ebad99808f33264f291 PDF Text Text DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 Diania Caudell: Is my lipstick okay? [laughs] Linda Kallas: Today is October 27, 2022. I am Linda Kallas, and I am interviewing Diania Caudell as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Thank you, Diania, for being here, and allowing me to do this with you today. DC: No $uun Looviq [“My heart is good” in Luiseno. Our way of saying “thank you.”] [chuckles] LK: Miiyu. [“Hello” to one person in Luiseno.] DC: Miiyu [laughs]. LK: Um, we were—I just wanted to ask you when and where you were born. DC: Uh, where was I—April 16, 1948. I was born here in North County, San Diego—Oceanside, California, San Diego County. LK: And was your family an active part of any cultural community, such as religious or ethnic groups? DC: Well [sighs] yeah, we were, uh, part of the first indigenous people here in the Americas or whatever you want to say on that part. Um, we are part of the San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians, uh, been in the area as far as, uh, the written is concerned, you know, since they were written at the Missions, I would say the 1700s, because after that it was, um, mostly—before that it was all oral. So, um, we’ve been here over nine generations. That’s on the native side. LK: That’s on the native side. DC: Yeah. LK: Which means— DC: It means that— LK: On the other side is— DC: On the other side, the French side came to us, and he landed here in 1868. He was Hubert Foussat. Here in San Francisco. He was one of the founding fathers of Oceanside. LK: Is that why there’s a street named after him? DC: Yes. But that’s not at a—that’s not named after my great grandfather. That’s named, really, with—after his brother, Ramon Foussat. LK: Okay. DC: And he’s the one that had the ranch in the area up there, by Highland and Oceanside. Faustino Foussat had the land there in the valley, San Luis Rey Valley. LK: And there’s also an elementary school named Louise Foussat. 1 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: Yes. She’s—I’ve always called her as an aunt, but she’s really a cousin. Um, she was—she married a Foussat. Okay. Her maiden name is a Munoa, and her mother was, um, Theresa Gidden, Theresa Giddens, and, um, that’s another one that’s—she was born at Pala, and, uh,that’s another side of our family, my father’s side, that had been here a long time. That’s another whole side that I could talk about when you get to that point, if you want to, and his grandmother— LK: Okay. DC: —was born on the Marron Ranch in 1865, so— LK: So, your family history stretches way back in the North County. DC: Yes. Yes. LK: Um, this seems like a silly question, but how do you like living and working here? DC: [laughs] Okay, it—all I can tell you is that, um, I wouldn’t want to live anyplace else, you know, other than—growing up, I lived all over the state of California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Nevada, only because I’m, I’m a construction brat, let’s just put it that way. My father was a heavy construction operator, had his own equipment. So, if you go anywhere here in California for the freeways, he probably helped build those, all the dams here in California, uh, he was probably was working on those, um, also like Parker Dam in New Mexico, you know, even in Arizona, I mean, excuse me, Arizona. You have some of the bigger dams, you know, throughout [breathes in] so, um, my mother kept coming back to North County, because she was born here in San Luis Rey Valley. Her family, her family’s from here. My father’s family is from Pala. So, we kept coming back and, um, I think she put her foot down from travelling when my brother and I were in junior high. So, I graduated from Escondido High School, and stayed in Escondido until I got married, then I moved up to Orange County, San Juan Capistrano. I was up there for 40 some years, before I came back down here to my home. LK: Wow. DC: [laughs, then bell chimes] Oh-oh. Is that me? LK: Well, so you do feel part of the community, and within that, do you feel like you have a support network? DC: Well, if you’re gonna say support network, you’re going to have to look at the whole family, okay. Just with my great-grandfather. He had 11 daughters. LK: Wow. DC: And so, one of them was my grandmother, and he raised my mother because her father died when she, when she was a young child. And so, my great-grandfather, Faustino Foussat, raised her. So, when you have a large—just one branch of the Foussat family that had all these sisters and all these children, um, there’s a support group on the ones that were close [chuckles] let’s just say. My grandmother, um, was born in San Luis Rey Valley, uh, lived there all her life, uh, well not all her—until she retired, and then she went to Hemet. But, she retired from Camp 2 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 Pendleton. She was one of the first workers there, you know, in the pressing. So, network-wise, yes, we have a good network of family. But, they all kind of seem to travel away, you know, on some things. Still, today, you know, because it’s San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians which I’m part of, we have good support network, in that, within relatives. I mean we have—I have a lot of cousins, you know, and related on both sides. If we had to talk about that, I’m double related on some of them, and people just kind of wonder what—how did that happen? When you try to explain the story, uh, it gets confusing. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: So, um, we just want to do a big picture one day [laughs]. LK: That would be nice. Um, you said that you were in Orange County for 40 years. DC: Mm-hmm. LK: So, tell me about the work you did there. DC: [sighs] Ok. Let’s just start that—when I got married, I moved up there and, um, when I was here I was starting in accounting. Okay? I’m an accountant by trade. That wasn’t really what I wanted to do, but that’s how it ended up, you know, going into accounting. Um, so I did a lot of accounting for dealerships. Went back to college to get my degree into Accounting, and then went into accounting, business law, etc. so I stayed—like to work with numbers. I’m just good with numbers. And, so, I worked with dealerships, school districts, medical field in the accounting field. I didn’t become, later on, the weaver or in, with my cultural until I had to have a back injury. So, for 40-some years, up there in San Juan Capistrano, Orange County, I got involved with the Acjachemen people, the Juaneños there, helping them through Indian education, in the 70s, because that’s a story that— I can go into that, and I think I—it’s kind of long but shortly is that I grew up with being native, and the schools not teaching us correctly. Okay? LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You read the books, etcetera, and you hear about how they were dressed, what they were, were they savages? Etcetera. And I would come home from school and saying this is not how we are. And then my mother, my grandmother, and family would say “Don’t argue, Diania, just let it go.” And so when I got married, and my two children, my son and my daughter, when they went to school up there in the Palisades, or in Capistrano Unified School District, they came home one day and said they were entitled to something other. It was like a Spanish program, Title II, at that time. And so, I went to the school to find out how my children got tagged into—in the Spanish community, when my last name is French, and it’s Caudell. And so, talking with the school principal, um, we found out that I followed that person that was in charge of Title II, and what had happened—how my two ended up coming with that notice is that this person went around the school to the classrooms and asked questions. Now, if you had a surname, with Romero, Sanchez, Alvaros, Valenzuela, any of those Spanish names, she automatically put them down on the list as a Spanish or Mexican. Uh, then, the other question when she got that from the roster, she then would ask “how many children here already know that their parents, or grandparents, 3 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 speak Spanish.” Well, my two automatically raised their hand because their father spoke Spanish. And he was taught that from his mother and also because of the community of San Juan Capistrano. You’ve got to think of the missions. That was the language that was taught to the Indian people. And, um, so that’s how my two got on there. And so I challenged that at the school district, at the, you know, with the superintendent, and, uh, they came back at me and saying “well, the last Indian person that was living here in San Juan Capistrano died in 1933, and he was the bell-ringer.” And I go, “no, that can’t be, because I’m here. I’ve got relatives that are married into the Juaneño or Acjachemen people. You still have them here, and so, um, I became an advocate [laughs], an activist, or whatever you want to say, and contacted my relatives there, that are—that married into the Acjachemen people, and, identified them. We went back to the school district, and went through all their rosters, because back in the 70s, when you’re ethnic, when they ask you that question, when you’re enrolling your student, your child, they ask you what ethnic group you are. Well, in those days—I’m saying those days, in the 70s, you only had, like, you had Caucasian, you had Asian—not even Asian, really. Mexican, I think. But you didn’t have the—what you have today is the Native American/Alaskan ethnic group. And so I always put us under “Other” as Native American, because I am a registered through the B.I.A., Bureau of Indian Affairs, and I have my certification, that I am who I am, meaning Native American. And, um, so I always made sure that my children would have that, going through there. So, we went through K-12, went to the registry of the school district and got all their cum files, or whatever they call them, those information files, and took home all the ones that were identified as Native American. A lot of them were not, because they didn’t want to, because it was passed down to us that you didn’t want to register as Native American because it wasn’t the best thing to do. So, they always put Caucasian. So, from K-12 in that school district, Capistrano High School District, we had identified 210 students. LK: Wow. DC: And so that kind of put us into the category of challenging the school. Uh, UCI had Kogee Thomas at that time. She was the Director. She heard about what was happening. She came down to become my mentor. With that, because she’s really high with the Seminoles and Muscogee people at that, then, and we wrote the first grant. We brought in Title IV, Indian Education Act, Public Law 194, in 1975. [laughs] LK: Wow. DC: So, I’ve been through this for a long time. We ended up forming the San Juan Capistrano Council, because they had to reform themselves again. They never left. They just said their leader moved, and they just kind of—in the 60s, or in the 50s, he left, and so they just kind of knew they were there, but they weren’t formally formed yet. So we reformed them. So today I can just tell you that in Capistrano Unified School District, they still have Indian Education. They have a Indian Research Center, kind of, for teachers, instructors, and parents, there on the Clarence Lobo Elementary school grounds. LK: Mm-hmm. 4 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: That if you wanted to study any Indian, not just California, any, any native person across indigenous person across the United States, in Alaska and Hawaii, etc., that you can go to that resource center, and that instructor, teacher, parent can pull the correct information that these tribes have handed in. So, that was one of my things that I did up there, other than just being an accountant. LK: Wow, that’s impressive. DC: Okay, that was in the community. [laughs] LK: Yes, yes. And then you mentioned you hurt your back and that’s what lead you to getting into basketry. Can you talk a little bit about that? DC: [sighs] Yeah, that was, um, a fall I had, okay? I don’t want to describe the fall, because it’s kind of, you know, it’s kind of stupid. I mean, the thing is when you hurt your back, um, I thought I’d go to the chiropractor. I went to work, and was working in Huntington Beach at that time, and I drove my car to Huntington Beach, went to sit down at my desk at the dealership, sat down and I couldn’t move. They had to literally pick me up, take me to my car. I called my chiropractor in Newport and, uh, he went to adjust it, and he says “This isn’t that, you know. This is something else.” And so they took x-rays, and he still tried the adjustment. I—and it got a point where I had to quit. I couldn’t—you know, I was losing to walk, etc. And the pain kept going through that, and then finally when they did an MRI on me, you know, they found out that I had―let me see, I’m trying to figure out how to describe this, because I’m not a medic, medical person— I was diag—rheumatism arthritis runs in our family on my dad’s side, my grandmother’s side. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Not too much on my mother’s side, but on, through my dad’s side. And so, I guess hereditarily, I have that in my system. What are you going to do? So, when I hit the lower back really hard, I accelerated the arthritis rheumatism in my spine. And so when that happened, that’s what they found with the MRI. So, they said “Diania, if you don’t have, do something with it, it’s going to get worse, and you’re going to lose a lot of functions that you normally can take that you can control of. And, anyway, I put it off a whole year. I didn’t want to have my back opened up. And so, I got to a point where I couldn’t deal with this anymore. And so, I had to say yes. They opened up 5, 4, and 6 of your vertebraes <sic>. They opened them up, and all I can describe it was a rotor-rooter job. She went in there, and just tried to scrape out all the rheumatism, or arthritis, away from my spine, inside my spine. And when she did that, she hit one of the sciatic nerves. LK: oh… DC: And uh, ‘cuz it, nothing’s replaced. They just sealed it back up again. And, uh, so when I came out of surgery, I didn’t realize that I couldn’t walk because the nurses tried to—they put those belts [gestures tying a belt around her waist] on you when you’re going to go and make you go to the restroom, etc., you know, when you’re [unintelligible] and when I went to get out the bed, I fell straight to the floor. Thank goodness I had belts on me, because the two nurses and 5 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 all the surgeons come running in, and I lost everything from the waist down. Had to learn how to walk all over again. It took me—they said “Diania, you’re going to have to learn patience.” And I’m not one with patience, let’s put it that way. I do have patience for other people, but not for myself. So, I didn’t know what to do and the Acjachemen people had sent me a newsletter, and my mom brought it up, and on the front cover of that newsletter that was next to the, my bed in the hospital was Lillian Robles. She’s an elder. She’s passed on before, but she had a basket hat on. And I saw the basket hat and I went “Oh, great. I guess to learn patience, I guess I can get into basketry.” LK: Oh… DC: And I never was in it. I was more in the Indian education. I was more into the helping with the activities. My mother was a weaver. My aunts were weavers, their jewelry, they’re always crafting with their hands. I was not. They always pushed me away, and said “Diania, you know, we’re need—we need you in education. We need you speaking for our people.” And so when I called, I looked at that, and I called Teeter Romero who was a top weaver from the Acjachemen people, and she—her and I were really close, worked together for years, with Indian education— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―Inter-tribal Council of California, I mean, the different areas, you know, for the people, Indian people. And I called her, and let her know that, um, I need to become a weaver. Well, she started laughing on the phone, when I called from the hospital, because she didn’t know where I was at. LK: She laughed at you? DC: Well, she laughed at me, because she said “you’re not a weaver, you know, you’re just not a weaver.” And then she says “Why?” And I says “Well, I’m in the hospital, and I can’t walk, and I need to learn patience.” So, when she heard that, she says “okay, when you’re able to get home and sit up in a wheelchair, we’ll come to you.” And, they did. I was with my mom here in Escondido, at that time. And they came down. About six months—let’s see, I had the operation in April; they came down in June. And I was being able to sit up in there. I was still trying to learn to walk. I was with a walker. And, they came! And they started, uh—sat down with me, and the first thing they gave me was raffia in one hand and pine needle in the other, and they had me doing the coiling, just to learn to go round and round and round and round, with basketry. From then on, it took me, you know, work—it took me almost two years to learn how to walk again, by myself. I was with a—I couldn’t drive. My mom was driving me all over. I had the walker. I got everything back in my left leg, but on my right leg not everything came through. And so, another six to eight months, I was doing acupuncture at Indian Health Council in Rincon, because I didn’t want to open up my back again, okay, have another surgery. So, I don’t have a lot of feeling in my right foot, from my calf, I think, down. But, I do think it—people don’t realize that, you know, that I don’t, but that’s what put me into retirement, really. LK: How many years ago was that? DC: Okay. When did 9/11, what year was that? 2001? 6 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: That was ’01. DC: Okay, ’01. LK: 09. DC: Because, yeah, April of ’01, because I remember I was still in bed and my mom got a call from her sister and my mom come running in to my bedroom, trying to insist I turn the TV on, and what she says—my mom was crying and I looked at that and there it was when I saw the airplane hit. They had that going on the towers and it was like looking at a movie. LK: Yeah. DC: Okay. That was just unbelievable. Okay? So, that was April, September, okay. It was— that’s how I can remember. I can never remember the year, but I just think it’s the year of 9/11. So twenty-oh-one, right? LK: Yeah, 21 years ago. DC: Yeah, so it was 21 years ago. I was still on—I have been on social security disability, because I can’t sit that long. So, if I get up on you guys, and take a break, then I’m sorry, you know, but that—My, my job was an accountant, and so that was sitting a lot. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then to get up and sit and get up is one of the things. So, uh, that’s how I got into basketry and I’m still doing that today, you know, on that. But, it’s taken me learning different things, you know, getting—you want me to go into California Indian Basket Weavers Association? LK: Yeah, I― DC: [laughs] okay, okay. LK: I was going to ask that—I—but I wanted to go back, just for a minute— DC: Okay. LK: —to Indian education. DC: Mm-hmm. LK: So, I think you said it’s still going on to this day. You still, they still have that educational program in San Juan Capistrano. DC: Yeah, they still have the Capistrano Unified School District and it’s going still strong, but they have to be the parents that have to want it. LK: Ah, okay. 7 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: It doesn’t just stay with the Acjachemen people. And they do have, I think they have a resource instructor there, someone in their administration, that they do go out for. Because it is a fund. It’s funding, it’s federal funding. All school districts need money― LK: Right. DC: ―and it’s a head count. And so, Capistrano Unified School District still has it, so does Huntington Beach, because they have a large community of the Cherokee Indian― LK: Oh! DC: ―outside natives coming in, because a lot of people don’t realize, that if they do start researching, you can go into 1963. They had the Relocation Act, of Native Americans. And, this isn’t taught in schools. This isn’t taught in—you know, for the general public, sometimes, unless you’re involved with Native Americans and their—and the different things. Well, 1963 they relocated Cherokee, Choctaw, and a lot of different native groups into California. LK: Oh… DC: You know, a lot of the Cherokees went to the Anaheim area, Huntington Beach area, and settled there. You had a lot of the Cherokee, Osage, and some coming down to San Diego. The largest Choctaw Relocation is in Bakersfield. LK: I’ll be darned. DC: So, yeah, it’s a—it was—it’s interesting, uh, how they did move native people around to get them away from their “homeland” and give them incentives at that time that “we can move you to California. You know, you can emerge into there” and stuff. And so a lot of it is kind of detrimental but with them, they brought their, they brought their culture and their tradition with them, which is good. LK: So, if you could see something change in regard to that educational program, what would it be? Would it be to expand it to San Diego County? Would it be… DC: Well, San Diego County had a big—has a big Indian education program. They did—they— you just don’t hear about it― LK: Okay. DC: ―um, in their school district. What it would be good to expand on there is that, um, to get it more to the public, to the other schools, okay. It takes a school district to want it. I’ve notified Oceanside. I’ve notified Vista. In Vista alone, a few years ago, they identified another 200, because now they have that on their information form of the child’s registers, you know, what ethnic group you are. And 210 had registered as Native American. It doesn’t mean they’re, you know, San Luis Rey or California. They can be from anywhere in the United States. And most of them that do register for their ethnic group know that they are, or they’ve been told that they are. LK: Mm-hmm. 8 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: But it gets a parent, it’s gotta be a parent to initiate it, to get a parent group together, and that way they can work with the school district. And then they can apply for grants. And then they can get the head count. Then they can get a resource instructor in there, or someone to work with the Indian education, and then it comes in with tutoring. That was one thing I did. I knew for, just for reading and math, at least. Get the children on the tutoring. They have the tutoring. They were pulled out of class or they brought the equipment in, if they needed equipment. There, Capistrano Unified School District, we’ll go back to that. It was shown as a need. Getting the general books that they need into the libraries. That’s how that resource center started, because the school districts will only go by what the state says, for state books, state history books, they―etc. The Native peoples say “No, that’s not correct. We will want our own books coming in.” So that’s what we did in the 70s. We brought in records. At that time, you didn’t have CDs or you know, what we had, you know, you had— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: LPs. And so we brought in records of the singing of the different groups. They brought in books that the teachers can get through, or parents could check out, you know, and working with that to get the education in there. And you have to have the school district to want to work with you. Um, we—it was a hard thing, with, even with Capistrano Unified School District, to do it. But if I didn’t have the help with Kogee Thomas and some of the top people that come from back east, that were very strong in their native cultural, that I don’t think that Capistrano would have done it either. ‘Cuz we challenged them. We challenged them, so— LK: But, how enriching for the students. DC: It is, but you got to have again, you gotta have a parent― LK: Right. DC: ―who would want that, so their student or their child can get that extra help. LK: There has to be a buy-in for it, with the parent. DC: Yes, and so it’s, it’s—today, in Capistrano Unified School District, the ones that do use it— I know my grandchildren went through it—they provided the computers at home for the tutoring. You know, they didn’t have to go to like a trailer, or be pulled out of class, and be taken, you know, like to a tutorial room like we did in the 70s. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Uh, with the st—with my two children, my daughter used it and they had computers at home. The school district provided these computers, these laptops for the home that they could use and they got tutored every day, since they were in grade school. All the way through high school. LK: Wow. It gave them a really good sense of self. DC: It gave a sense of self, and they—at first it was “why do we have to do this for half an hour every day?” [laughs] I mean, but as they got older in high school, and then went to college, you 9 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 know, especially going through all those tests that you have to take for college, they, they were happy because they knew a lot of the questions and were able to answer them. Because of the tutorial they had, um, above and beyond what they normally get in school, in class. LK: Wow. That’s wonderful. So, you’ve already explained a little bit about your life’s path, how it’s evolved and changed over the years, so I was going to ask you if you wanted to share a little bit more about the basketry and CIBA, and I see that you have a little sample of one. DC: [laughs] Ok. When you said CIBA, I don’t think everybody knows what CIBA is, okay. You’re familiar with it. CIBA is California Indian Basket Weavers Association. Um, that’s another thing that I have been a member of and I’m on the Board for the last umpteen years, I would say—let’s just say the last 12 years. I know it’s been longer. Uh, but how I got involved in that, again, was going back to when I became basket—learning basketry and the plants, finding out that southern California doesn’t have everything that they normally have. If you know the county here, we’ve got 18 reservations here in the San Diego County alone and the people— where they were sent—aren’t on their homelands. I mean— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It’s not where they would have their medi—their medicinal plants, their foods, or their traditional cultural plants like basketry and other things, and so they had—the people had to go off the reservations, and to public lands, which would be your forestries, um, county parks, state parks, etc., even private land, to get the materials that they need for the basketry. Well, I had a problem with that because I didn’t understand that, you know, and why did they have the restrictions here in southern California when I found out that in central California, they don’t have that. In northern California they don’t have the same restrictions. But it’s because a lot of these central reservations or rancherias in northern California, too, is that they’re on their homelands. They’re rancherias. They weren’t like taken from one area and moved. Okay. They’ve had little rancherias, then. That’s what they called them, instead of reservations, up in northern California, spread out. And so they were on their lands and they had the traditional materials. LK: Oh, I see. DC: For example, you’ve got the Yuroks and the Hoopas up there. They’re in the forest up there. They have the red for—the, the redwoods. They got the forest. They’ve got a lot of their plants. And that’s their economic development. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But, that’s―they don’t call them reservations. They call them rancherias. Okay, so, so I started asking questions about that. You know, I’d say “how come, what for?” And I went to a gathering of CIBA, because they have a large gathering once a year for the basket weavers of the state of California, and I started asking “how come, what for, why is it that in California we don’t have this, when you have it up there?” And then I was told by a board member, “Well, Diania, you keep asking these questions. Why don’t you—we’re having a Board election. Why don’t you throw your hat in, your name, and we can see what we can do?” Well, I got elected. 10 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 You know, I mean, I didn’t expect that at all. And I’ve been on it ever since, since 2003. And, uh, so I became an advocate of, for southern California, to get in, our traditional trading, you know, gathering, etc., our traditional materials, you know, on that. And so, if I didn’t enjoy what I’m doing and have a passion for it, you know, I think learning about my traditional materials that we use for basketry, which is hard to find here in southern California, if you don’t get somebody to help you, you know, with that. And, um, so I think being educating people has helped me. LK: Um, the traditional materials are hard to find because of development? They’ve all been— DC: Yes, uh— LK: —plowed over or— DC: Um, there’s a—[reaching to her left for a brochure with the front cover reading “Indian Rock Project”] okay, let me just see, I’m just going to go through here. This here, this is Indian Rock Project, okay. This is something that we worked with the Cal St—uh, San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians and Cal State San Marcos worked together with Palomar College to do, to put this book out. This was done in 2003, which was a long time ago. But in here, in this book, let me just—[flipping through pages]—the—when you see what they—when you ask me about, uh—[looking at a particular page]—uh, where is it? [flips through more pages] And then you all—she’s probably going to edit this, but that’s okay. Because I was asked that question that you were just asking, and [still flipping through pages] LK: About the natural— DC: I found it. Okay, I had said here, on here “preserving tradition” and this is, you know― [turning the booklet to Linda to show her the specific pages]—I ended up being in the booklet, okay, okay, on this Indian Rock Project [shows front cover] You could probably go online, you know, and download it, because they don’t have any more of these booklets. But, when you asked me that question, I said [she’s reading from the booklet] “a lot of our things are being destroyed. If you look at our environment around us, we have development, development, development. Juncus and all the plants that we use for actually making the baskets are being destroyed. When we are out driving, we stop, we get out there, and we take pictures. I want to find a spot, notify the nearest reservations, notify the Forestry, notify the developers—“Can we go in? Can we pick? Can we transplant? Because if you are going to develop it and destroy it, let us go in.” That was a statement that I had made, you know, for—for, for, like an interview for this booklet. So— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then it went on [flipping through booklet again] into who I am or whatever. But, um, yes, the development. And so more developers now are finding out that if you do have—if you do identify traditional materials and stuff, they are now trying to hopefully preserve ‘em, or to have you come in and take them, or use them. But it is. Southern California is, gets hit with a lot of development because you look around here and you’re looking at it. I’m looking at the Mission San Juan—Mission, excuse me, San Luis Rey Mission. If you ever go by there, and stuff 11 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 like this, you’ll see we had wetlands there right next to it, and through the Lavanderia and right next to the Mission, what’s happening now? The Mission leased it out, or sold it, whatever you want to say—99-some years. You’ve got this big, huge retirement center going in there. It’s like a resort. They are built on the wetlands, and uh, there went something that was natural, native, etc., and it’s being developed. You drive around to different places now, here in San Diego County, and you’re seeing development. So, it’s really hard on— LK: Everywhere you look. DC: Yeah, and I just don’t understand, for me, where they’re getting their water from. Because if we have a resource of, of water—that’s one of the things that we don’t have here in southern California. We have to bring it in from other places. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: How can you develop and, and, and bring in people, more and more people, so how are you going to give them water? Feeding you know—if you’re going to feed, you’ve got the grocery stores yet, or whatever. You still can’t even have farmland any more hardly, but water. Water is essential for all living things. So, where they come, the water? I mean, the lease on the Colorado River is coming up. That was only a 99-year agreement. How are they going to negotiate that, if they want to stop the Colorado River from coming in? You know, I know they’re doing desalting plant, but that’s not even good for the ocean, you know, and not even good for us as people. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: So, um, that’s a big question that I ask. Every time I drive around and see these developments, you know, and it’s money. It’s politics and money. Okay, we can go on. We won’t go into that—[laughs] LK: Well, going back to the baskets— DC: Okay. LK: Can you tell us some of the natural fibers that you use, natural plants you use in the baskets. DC: Okay. LK: The traditional— DC: —Traditional plants. In the state of California, we have over 243 different tribes, 26 different dialects of language, and each one of the—in California, it’s kind of divided up, like in northern, central, and southern, and we all don’t use the same plants. Here in southern California, we basically use about five. And that would be Juncus textilis, which is a green reed that grows near water. It needs water. It’s like a tule, if you’ve seen tule in― LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―these wetlands, and stuff, or at these lakes, lagoons, but it’s not cornered or— Tule has three—is three-sided. Juncus textilis, is round. It’s a round reed, and it grows up straight. It 12 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 could—If you know how crab grass grows, it has, is that right? How it goes—what do you call that [gestures with her right hand, pointing straight and making curves in a snake-like fashion]— you know, you pull it out of the shoots— LK: Uh-huh. DC: —you know, like crab grass— LK: Yeah. DC: And, anyway, uh, depending on where it’s growing at and the materials that are in the— minerals—excuse me—that are in the soil, the bottom of the root type of thing, where the shaft comes out of there, the reed comes out of that shaft, it’ll have color on it. And it’s either from a deep light brown, mahogany color, to a deep red mahogany color. And, I didn’t bring any of those baskets with me. I was going to, okay, but maybe I should have, but I didn’t. If you ever notice some of the traditional baskets, you’ll see this deep red color or brown color— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That’s usually coming from the Juncus on the, on the end of the shaft on there, bottom part, which is in the ground. It’s green when you plant—It’s green when you collect it. You have to process it. It takes time. It grows with poison oak. That’s another thing. We call it—it’s our protector. The only time we go and gather the Juncus textilis is when we say the poison oak goes to sleep, and that only means that the leaves are gone. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it’s still going to be contaminated, probably, with poison oak. And that’s why we don’t teach it as much, because some people don’t want to be dealt with, with poison oak. That’s what, that’s the reed that we use for coiling. Okay? And that takes a process, splitting, etc., and getting it ready. It takes anywhere from six months to a year to even get your material ready to do a basket. The next one that we use for our start would be the center, which is the center of the basket, is yucca. And that, again, is that—what is it, yucca—uh, the Whippi? Or they call it the “Lord’s Candle.” It think you’ve seen it down by the road. You’ll see it growing on the hillsides. There’s different ways to use that. Some people will take the dead leaves, those great big green ones that they have and they grow pretty, even from the agave— LK: Mm-hmm. DC:—and the yucca. When you see those dead ones, or dried out, in the desert, etc., you can take those and you can soak them really, really big in a big tub, and then you take that, and you pound it. And you just keep pounding it, when they’re—you know, when you’re drying them. And they’ll—they’ll turn fibrous, like string— LK: Oh. 13 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC:—and that’s how you get your yucca sandals, and things like that, that they use in fiber, or your cordage. The other way you can do is with the yucca is you take the center of the new shoots that are coming out, before it becomes a flower in the stalk. [gestures up with an open hand] You take that, and you twist it, and you get about 30 or 40 small, small [gestures to indicate smallness of an object] little leaves, and then you take those and you shred ‘em with a needle—we do—or pound them, and uh, you don’t need to go out there anymore because you’re not going to make 30 or 40 bags in your lifetime, as far as I know. I’m not going to. But you have enough to where you don’t have to go out there and gather them. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Then, deer grass. People use deer grass as a native plant for decoration or whatever, because it’s drought tolerant. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it’s not that Pampas grass that you see waving from that Africa—that African one is an invasive plant. I wish people would just take it away, and these nurseries—just take it out, you know get it—because that Pampas grass kills everything on the native plants. It just takes over. And deer grass is similar to it, but it doesn’t have that fan on the top. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And, uh, the deer grass, we gather that and we take the shoots or the stems on them, and we gather, and that’s what we coil around [gestures in a coiling fashion with both hands] So, the traditional, for the Mission baskets they called here that the Luiseño use, Cahuilla use, Kumeyaay use, the Cupeno use here in southern California, even the Chumash further up, and your Tongva and your different people. We do a coiling technique. Okay? So have you ever seen those baskets in museums, etc., you’ll see that one by one, they’re coiling. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They’re coiling the Juncus textilis. They’re coiling around with sticks that they use, which would be deer grass. And the center star that you see in the middle [creates a circle with her fingers on her left hand] is done with yucca. And sometimes it’s also done with Juncus on Juncus, or Juncus on Deer Grass. It all depends who the weaver is, etc. Since we have to gather that, and we can’t find it all over, you know what we do, we try to really work with the forestries, and private owners, and people. Try and get them to plant. It’s not easy to plant the Juncus textilis because it’s not going to grow everywhere. So, there’s different areas that do have it. If you want to see Juncus textilis, where it’s at, you can see it in the public, it’s in the public discovery center there in Carlsbad. LK: Oh. DC: They have a good—kind of like a little garden, that they have it growing there. And the deer grass and the yucca. And that was done because we worked with the Discovery Center years ago with Cal State San Marcos and the students. And we did all the planting there, when it was there. So, if you want to see that, I would go there and visit it. And you can see what the Juncus textilis 14 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 looks like. See, uh—[sighs]—but doing basketry is that—what I have here is samples. I did bring a basket. I just brought these hair pieces that I’ve made for my two granddaughters [shows beautiful, small round woven hairpieces]. Can you see them okay?— LK: Yes, yes. DC: Out of Juncus. If you see, this one here is a little bit darker, and the black there [now holding only one of the hairpieces, with a woven black ring in the mid-region of the weave, and gesturing to this area] is dyed Juncus, okay? Now, that Juncus, um, was dyed with—[looking at the hairpiece now, more intensely]—I don’t know, this was given to me, [chuckling] the dyed Juncus, so I’m assuming they did it with, um, elderberry leaves, okay, and um, put in the Juncus, and in a can, okay, or, or like a coffee can that’s all rusty. And what you do—you put the rusted can in there. You have your Juncus already split and put into the weaver, and then you put, um, into a coffee can [gesturing to show the size of the can] and it’s all rusty. You put some rusty nails in it at the bottom, and then you start layering it with the Juncus textilis. It’s the process. And on top of that you put elderberry leaves, and you keep going ‘til you fill it. [gestures indicating layers building up] Then you fill it with water. LK: Oh. DC: And then you let the water—and then you put that can somewhere so it can ferment. It’s like I tell you, it’s got to get all yucky and like, rotten, and what it is is that it probably turns black. And it’s—and you’re getting the iron—what do you call that? Iron oxide?— LK: Uh-huh. DC: —from the, from the nails and from the rusty can. Then when you empty it out, your Juncus is black. LK: Wow. DC: Dyed black. And that’s also what’s coming from the elderberry leaves. Another way that our ancestors did it was that during the creeks they knew where there was iron oxide in the soil, in the sand. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They would get their Juncus, and they would bury it in that sand. They’d come back, weeks later or whatever, and dig it out, and it’ll be black. Another way they do it, up in northern California, and in here too, is using walnuts, because we had, you know—black walnuts is a native plant of California. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And so they would take the shells, crunch ‘em up, you know shells, the outside shell, they’re called, and if you’ve ever picked walnuts, you know that your hands get black? LK: Yeah. 15 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: Okay, because that—on the hull—because you take that, well they’ll take that hull and chop it up, and then put in water, and put your Juncus in there, and with the walnut there, and they’ll turn black, too. LK: Wow. DC: That’s just one other way. It takes time. And they also use the acorn husk, or the shell of the acorn, and the black acorn, or any of the acorns, crush ‘em up again and put them in water, put the Juncus in there, and then you have to leave it. So it is a time consuming deal. So these are two headpieces I did. Now, when we get to the schools—when you get to the school— [holds up a small woven basket] this is a little basket that I’ve had for years. But this is not a native material. This material that we use for teaching is from, okay, rattan. Everybody knows what rattan is. Rattan has a pith in it. Rattan and bamboo look similar but bamboo is hollow. Rattan is got the pith. To get the pith out of the rattan, pull it, press it, and make cane. This is how you get cane. LK: Oh. DC: And so what we use here, is that you can buy cane in different rounds, or different sizes or gauges. You can get it flat. You can get it round. Uh, we get the round, and this is called Cherokee Single Wall twine. I call it, uh—we have our own twine, excuse me, but it’s not like this one, the Luiseño. And why I use Cherokee is because one of the easiest ones that the kids can use at school. It’s the closest thing that I can get to the river cane, from the Cherokee and Choctaw and the people there, in Oklahoma and that area, will use, because they go and pick their river cane. We don’t have river cane here in California. If we do have it, I wouldn’t want to go down there because it’s probably contaminated. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It’s got all those other things, and they probably sprayed it a lot with pesticides. And so this is what we teach in school, and I call it “Cherokee Single Walled Twine.” We make the starts. The kids can make one of these [holding up a skein of yarn] within an hour, even the adults, over two hours. And maybe not this size, maybe a little bit bigger. But this way, they don’t have any allergies or con― such so far, uh, getting sick from it. Because, I can’t guarantee our native traditional plants that we do use aren’t—it doesn’t have some type of pesticides on it, or some poisons on it that we’re not aware of. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And we use our mouth [wipes her right hand across her mouth] a lot for our third hand when we’re weaving with our traditional materials. LK: Because you have to keep them— DC: We have to keep them very moist. LK: Moist. 16 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: Everything has to moist. It has to be pliable. It has to be moist. If you’re going to be weaving with almost anything, even with cloth, even with weeds, even with flowers or stems or, you know, branches. We do use willow, though, okay? Aurora willow, or the willow tree. We make baskets out of that too. If you ever notice the big acorn granaries, they call ‘em, have you ever seen them on pictures— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —that the tribes had next to their kiichas or their ewaks for here in southern California, even northern California. They have great big acorn granaries. Those are made out of willow. They’re woven green, and when they’re woven green, uh, then they let―they dry. But do they use willow? Willow is a natural insecticide. It keeps the insects away from the acorns. And that’s why they have them high up on a stilt like, or platform, to keep their small animal away from them, or whatever. But if they do―these small animals try to get to the acorn, then they can also plug it up, or whatever. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But those acorn granaries can last for hundreds of years, you know. They’ve found, when they’ve done research, you know, in the mountains or at their villages, you’ll see a granary that is still up. But, it’s a natural insecticide. People don’t realize that the willow is a natural insecticide— LK: That’s interesting. DC: —to weave with it. LK: So, in traditional weaving, was it always the women, the tribal women, that did the baskets or did men— DC: I would say— LK: —create baskets as well? DC: Uh, yeah. Traditionally, mostly it was the women and the girls, okay? Because you’ve got to think about—before contact, especially here in California, we’re the last native people that were contacted as they came west— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―our baskets were used for cooking, for storage, for gifting, for birthing, for death. And that was our—they were utilized for everything. And that’s why they can say that “Mission baskets were woven so tight that they can hold water.” LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Well, yes and no. The only reason why they can hold water is that the deer grass in what they’ve coiled around swells. [laughs] LK: Oh. 17 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: So, but they also had the—and when they cooked in them, they used another plant that we do. It’s more fire resistant. And that’s your Trius lobata, or your sumac. And that’s kind of―it’s white. Have you ever seen baskets that have more of a white bottom to it? LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That’s because it’s usually with sumac, and that one has a resistance to fire. But, only be— resistance, how can I say this—fire tolerant but not to a point. When they cooked in baskets, the cooking baskets, they were done with a stick that they’d keep moving [circles her right arm as if stirring], and they were used with river rocks, hot rocks in there. Central northern California used lava rocks a lot, but that had been tumbled in the rivers. But the ones that are here, we would probably get the smooth river rocks, and then you heat them up and then you put them into the basket, and you have to keep stirring them [makes a stirring motion with her right hand] into that food. Men probably did the baskets that were, um, that were for fishing, like the fish traps, or your great big, huge granaries,― LK: Oh, yeah. DC: Okay, on that? And they’re made out of the willow. Um, they didn’t make them—northern California, they made ‘em a lot of out of the different plants up there, the branches there. But, almost all of them are made out of willow, you know, because it was pliable to work with. But, that’s your bigger gathering baskets or fish traps, etc., you know. But mainly, it’s mostly the women. But men did do that. We do have men today that are top weavers, um, so, we even have one in our tribe that’s a fantastic weaver [chuckles]. LK: So, it’s a form of functional art. I mean, ‘cuz it is a form of art. That’s what— DC: Well, it didn’t become a form of art until it—until I would say, after contact— LK: Right. DC: —because it was a utility that we had to use, you know. It was something. LK: Right. It was functional. DC: Yeah, and I say, you know, when pots and pans came out, I, I would have been one that threw the baskets away. [laughs] Let’s use a pot, too, you know. LK: [laughs] DC: It’s just like when you gather your foods, you know. I gather the acorn and I make that wiiwish, we call it, the acorn mush. I use a processor to crack all my—you know, to mix it up, you know, and get the nuts, ground it down. You know, if you ever see these, um,—how can I say these—we call them gathering, gathering spots or metates are these big rocks that have the holes in them—the grinding area, they call ‘em grinding stones, grinding— Can you imagine the woman that’s sitting there, or a child, or whatever, pounding acorn to get a meal out of it, you know, to get it real fine like a flour. And, and how long they pound it up there to get those holes in there. How old! You can just tell the age of the—by looking at these grinding areas, or 18 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 grinding rocks that you see, how, how hard they must have done it, so it just—it didn’t happen overnight, to make those holes, you know, in those rocks. It had to be― LK: Right. DC: [gesturing in a pounding motion] ―years and years of processing. And, uh, I’ve tried it. We have two in our backyard, and I didn’t last five minutes. Raising that rock, that pestle, over my head and pounding the acorn, okay? I mean, I couldn’t, after that, I couldn’t raise my hand after five minutes, or even three minutes. My mom was laughing at me out there― LK: [chuckles] DC: ―you know, and I said “Our women must have had—the women must have had shoulders and— LK: Strong arms. DC: —biceps, strong arms, to do that, daily, every day, to get the acorn to get it ready for the mush because that was a staple for the people, you know, because the acorn—wiiwish, we call it—or the, um, what do they call it, with the Kumeyaay, um—we call it wiiwish, they call it, um, okay, I’ve got to think about it. I know it starts with an ‘s.’ But anyway, um, everyday. Because, see, that’s 100% protein. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The acorn is 100% protein. So, it was a staple and it was also a replacement for when they didn’t have any meat, you know, so it was always used. So, when these processors came through, they said “Diania, how come you don’t do it the traditional way?” I said “Uh-uh” [shaking her head] I said “my ancestors would have popped in that, those electrical things to plug in, they would have used it too.” I said “There’s no way I’m going to go out there and you know, [she and Linda start laughing] and pound.” I mean it’s kind of like a joke but it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s—you know, you know, when progress comes, I’m sure they, they would have—they wouldn’t have stayed with their old ways. That’s how I look at it. [chuckles] LK: Circling back, you mentioned a few institutions like Cal State San Marcos, The Discovery Center in Carlsbad, CIBA, and you’re part of the Pesticide― DC: Oh, Tribal― LK: ―with the National Parks? DC: Well, I belong also to the Tribal Pesticide Program Council through EPA. And that’s because of the pesticides and insecticides and stuff that effect our, our plants. A lot of people don’t realize that, when they see our traditional plants, they think they’re weeds. LK: Oh. DC: And they’ll spray them. Or also, that, um―there’s drifts that happen and if you have native plants that are growing near there, and you’re not aware of the native plants that are there, and if 19 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 how they’re spraying, and if the wind comes up [she makes a “whoosh” sound, and waves her hand in a broad sweep to indicate wind over field], the drift will go over there. There’s no signs that tell you that “Hey, we’re going to be spraying today!” LK: Mm-hmm. DC: County doesn’t even tell you that, I mean, unless they come around, you know. The mosquitoes, like in Central California, Sacramento, they post it, because with all those rice fields that they have up there, they have to. They have to do that, spraying for the mosquitoes. And they do it by helicopter. And I’ve been up there when they’ve done that, and they’ve got notices all over―“Shut Your Windows”, “Shut Your House”, “Stay in Your House Between This Hour and This Hour”― because they’re coming in and just sprayin’ and it goes all over your cars, etc., out there. In the University of Davis, Woodland, in that area. So, but they don’t do that too much down here, okay. So, when you don’t know about it, and then you see the plants and you’re going to go through it, you don’t know if it’s been sprayed or anything, or drifted on. And then you pick it, and then you get it, and you put it in your mouth, or whatever, you smell it to see if it is, you get hit. And I’ve had, that’s how I got into pesticides. I went to pick a plant that I thought that the only way you can identify it is to smell it, so I popped it [gestures breaking a stem open] like you know you see you pop it, and I stuffed it up one nostril and within five minutes my whole side of my face went red [gestures a swipe across right side of her face]. Rushed in to Rincon Indian Health Center. They said “Diania, what did you do?” I says “okay, this is where I was at.” And, I had a chemical reaction, that it was sprayed, that it somehow got sprayed. And so I was on―the first time I got steroids, and shot with steroids and it’s five-four-three-two-one [gestures counting on fingers], you know, you’re taking all those pills, five days. Found out that the golf courses are the worst [chuckles] people, or development, or whatever, that use herbicides, pesticides, insecticides, any type of your “cides” they said, because they want to keep their grass green and they want to keep their flowers beautiful and colorful. They don’t want any rodents. They don’t want anything upsetting that golf course out there. And if you have any native plants that are near there, uh, they’re probably going to get hit with that type of thing. And the golf course is another one that doesn’t tell you that they’re spraying. I don’t, I’ve never gone by a golf course that said “Hey, we’re spraying today. There’s a sign.” And I worry about the people that are out there golfing, okay. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, and I love to watch golf. Don’t get me wrong. I mean, I enjoy, I’m not a golfer but I love watching the Masters and stuff. And it goes through my head, when these guys are out there, and the women, you know, and they’re walking in it, but you don’t know if they’ve been told about the spraying, or you know, if they have an asthma thing, or, or something like that. So what happened was that I got into pesticide with CIBA. [chuckles, and reaches to her left for a brochure] So then I was working, we worked with a brochure [laughs, and shows for the camera a brochure, then reads the front of it] they call, it’s called “Pesticides: What Basket Weavers Should Know.” But, this doesn’t just tell you for basket weavers. It’s for everybody― LK: Mm-hmm. 20 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: ―okay? And the contact people [flips the brochure over, and points to the back side of the brochure] like for here in Southern California, you’ve got the contact if you’ve had this. It just tells you what to look for on native plants, if they look dead, if they’re doing anything. [opens brochure and looks inside] I’m trying to get EPA right now to try to start making us some more of these, but if I have some more, [turns the inside of the brochure to face the camera] like if I gave you, you know, some handouts that you could make your own, you know. They don’t have to be in color. [closes brochure, but still holds it up] But, it’s just an awareness about pesticides when you’re out there. And it, you don’t have to be gathering. You can just be taking a trail ride out there, or hiking. Your animals could come back with pesticides or insecticides on them, and then you have your kids rubbing them [gestures petting an animal], and playing with them, and hugging them, and then you wonder also why your child is coming out with a rash. Why are they coughing? Why are they sneezing? And so, most of the time, it’s some type of spraying and it’s out there. So I sit on that, that, across the United States, we’ve got all the tribes. But the bigger tribes like the, your Black Feet and your Crow, etc. you know, they, they lease their land, because they’ve got millions of acres on their reservations. So they lease their lands to Montanyo [sounds unsure]. One of that does soy beans, and corn, and all these big guys. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But they need to have the pesticides, but they’re trying to regulate it more so especially on native ground or Indian country, because, um, they don’t want to be digesting it. They don’t want this corn and everything that is going out to the public to be digested, because if you go on to a lot of your other farms and stuff like this, they’re not telling you what the pest―what is being used. But the, in the Indian country, they want to make sure it’s safe. They don’t want to get sick. They don’t want their own families to get sick. So, it’s a big political thing. But what had happened in northern California, how this—how CIBA became involved in the 90s, about ’93, is that the weavers in northern California get their―they use a lot of roots. LK: Mmm— DC: And they use a lot of willow roots. So, during the―on the rivers of northern California, they go high. But when they recede down, that’s when the roots stick out from the, from the banks where all the willow trees are growing. And so they go into the water, and they’re picking from the banks of the river, all the roots coming out [gesturing pulling something towards her]. LK: Uh-huh. DC: Okay? When you kind of think of, when the water is high [gestures raising up as in water level], this is where the roots are going. They’re going to get water for the, for the trees. Well, industry up nor―up, up river, where they call, where they, where it is coming down into the river, they were dumping chemicals into the water— LK: Hmmm— DC: —as a dump. You’re talking about the lumber mills, some of the uh, other industrial things are doing it. That’s what was stuck in the salmon, also. And so the weavers were doing it. Then 21 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 all of a sudden they were finding their elders the weavers were getting cancer around their mouth [gesturing around her mouth] LK: Oh, no. DC: And they were getting cancer inside. They were losing their teeth [pointing at her teeth]. And they couldn’t figure out why. Because it wasn’t just happening to just one tribe. It was happening to all the ones that, that were gathering, you know. You’re talking the Pomo, the Uroquois, the Hupas, the Kuroks. All the ones that use this type of material. And so in ’93, they found out that, they had EPA come out. They had this whole thing. They wrote a paper on it, a risk assessment, and found out that it was chemicals in the water when they tested the waters on these big ones. And so that started, for CIBA anyway, with the pesticides— LK: Huh. DC: —to get on there, to be more sort of a―― how can I― a public, you know, awareness. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You can only educate. You can’t stop it. You can only, you know. That’s why you have all these, um, lawsuits right now, happening in northern California and their waters. Look at the salmon. What’s happening, not just in California, but in Oregon and Washington with― because of the chemicals. Uh, you can’t, sometimes you can’t even eat, you know, some of that salmon because they can’t even go upstream, because when they come upstream, they come back sick. And the worst one is in Alaska. LK: Right. DC: See, people don’t want to hear about Alaska. But everything that we use down here in, in, in the “mainland” they call it, the chemicals, anything, okay, it all goes into our atmosphere, right? [points upward with both hands]. I mean, you spray, and it’s going to go up. LK: Yep. DC: Okay, when it goes up, where does it go? It goes to the Poles. [gestures as if touching top and bottom of a globe] North Pole, north pole is getting it mostly. South Pole is not as much, because they don’t get that drift like they did. But what it did, it collects up here [circles her hand in a rotating motion] in the atmosphere, and what it is, over Alaska in the Arctic area. That’s why it’s cleaning out too. Because it’s just going around, all these chemicals. It, it forms a warmth and a heat. And that why, that’s what’s, and now when it rains up there, it drops down [laughs, and gestures as if something is falling] into their land and into their trees, and into their plants, and they’re contaminated. And it’s all because of us down here, meaning, I’m saying “us”, mainland and you know, uh, North, Central, South America, all of us, you know, Europe, that using all these different chemicals and things like this, and drifts up [raises her hands up], collects in that atmosphere up there [circles in the air with her left hand], goes to the North Pole. It’s going around and around. It rains, or whatever, and it comes down, [indicates rain coming down, with both hands] and that’s why Alaska is having all those problems right now with their 22 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 food [gestures as if counting on her left hand], climate change, the heating, etc. And, uh, a lot of it is the use of chemicals and pesticides. LK: Well, what started out as a― DC: [chuckles] LK: ―lessons in patience for you― DC: [bursts out laughing] LK: You’ve expanded your knowledge to all aspects of basketry and, and working with other organizations. So, I know those aren’t the only ones you work with, though, and I can list a couple just to jog your memory. I know you work with Camp Pendleton. DC: Oh, well yeah, well, Camp Pendleton is― LK: And Daly Ranch. DC: Daly Ranch. Well, Daly Ranch was because [sighs] I went to, I went to be a docent. Okay? Because I had to find something to do after, you know, I, and that I, before I had my surgery, I became a docent, and I wanted to do the trails. Okay? The native trails. But when I had, after my surgery, I couldn’t do the walking anymore. And so they did have a small “Indian program” you know, on there. And one of the rangers I, you know, I, I love him dearly, he’s still there, we worked together, he was the one that was doing the Native American aspect of the Daly Ranch, what they would give to the public and school district. Fifteen minutes [gestures making air quotes] is all he would have. So I went through his training, on the docents, and he brought in a native person from souther―from Kumeyaay territory, I think, a weaver. I can’t think who the weaver is now. She did a display and stuff. And so Ranger Robert, I think I mentioned him, he did a lot, because of his sons were in Boy Scouts, you know, Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Eagle Scouts, and they had to do a lot of the native areas of, on there. So he made a lot of the artifacts that the Daly Ranch uses and I use right now for exhibit. And he learned about the plants, and the foods, etc. Well, he went to serve wiiwish, acorn. And when he served it, it was great. And I just went “What?”, you know. And it, it was [gesturing as if saying ‘no’ with her fingers] I don’t know. And I’m going asking “How did you do this?” Well, he used the acorn, but he didn’t use the acorns that we normally would use. He used a different type of acorn. And how he fixed it, or whatever. And so, when we had our barbeque when we graduated from the docent class, I went home [laughs] and I made the ______________. This is supposed to look like, okay, you know, our wiiwish does that. And he says “well, teach me!” So we started working together. Then they asked me if I would come in and do the native American part, you know, with the Daly Ranch. Daly Ranch through the 7th graders and the whole school district, in Escondido School District, they run the 7th graders through there for 6 weeks, in the Daly Ranch, twice a week, like a Tuesday and a Wednesday, from 8 o’clock until 2. And we do about two hundred some a day. LK: Wow! DC: I’m the native American part of it, and they do plants, and then they do insects, and then they do the large predators, you know, and then they, the tricks. But, I’m the native American 23 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 portion of it. It started out as 15 minutes, and now all of a sudden, now I’m doing about 35 minutes, and just expanding it— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —to get them knowing that this was our first―you know, Daly Ranch is on the, one the land of native peoples. There’s, there’s areas out there on Daly Ranch that the public can’t see, that know that they’re―they live there. They have artifacts, etc., on that. So, um, and I got asked to, to do that. It’s all voluntarily. If I get paid from anything for doing that―I’ve been doing that going on 16 years now―it’s a surprise for me, because they do it through grants. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: I started out, like I said, volunteering, and it had expanded it to bigger working with Fred Wood, who’s a retired school teacher, you know, from a junior high, 8th grade. And I started with my cousin, Kathy Wallace, who’s our story teller now, and her son Brandon―he was about 9 or 10 years old―we would do it together. Well, it got to a point to where she expanded out [gestures expansion thrusting her right hand out away from her], you know, he got older. And so, I had Teeter Romero used to come down for me and help me, from San Juan Capistrano. And then, also now, I got it for myself and it’s hard to get people to want to take it over. Because the first question they ask “Well, how much do you get?” And I says “Nope.” I says “I can’t guarantee you anything on that. If I get paid, it’s a surprise for me at the end of the six weeks, depending on how much the grant through—It’s through a grant, that they get― LK: Right. DC: ―that. That’s to the Friends of the Daly Ranch. Even though the Daly Ranch is owned by the city of Escondido, this Friends of the Daly Ranch and the docents do it because of they want to. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The only ones that really get paid on there is the rangers, because they’re employees of the city of Escondido. LK: Right. DC: And uh― LK: But that’s not the only institution that you do work. You, you go to elementary schools and― DC: Well, yeah, I have. I did elementary schools. I think, you know, we do―like San Elijo. We’ve been doing that for seven years, and that’s during that one basket that I just showed you, with the Cherokee style. We do third graders there. [sighs] Before they built that new elementary school, we were doing anywhere from 2 to 300 hundred a day, in well, one day. We had it for 35 minutes, at 70, at the time. And then, because they had a program going. Kathy would be the story teller. They had adobe making. They had―and so these children are going [gestures in a 24 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 round circle with her right hand] all day, every half hour they’re going to another, another thing. I would have four weavers come in to help me. And then we would give a quick 10-minutes, 5minute thing with parent volunteers, to come in and help to, to and I think you’ve even done it before, [chuckles] to just help these students. And so you’d have all these third graders in one room, sittin’ on the floor, on these things, ten, ten to a circle so I know it’s seventy, because we had seventy cir―seven circles in there. We’d done seventy at the time, forty-five at the time, and then within thirty-five minutes, you know, they’re done. If they didn’t finish this basket [holds up small basket which can fit in the palm of her hand] in their time, then they would take them with them and complete it in their ar—in their art department students. So we’ve been doing that for quite a while. I’ve done the thing with Cal State San Marcos with their students up there, giving the demonstrations, etc., given a talk. And then even teaching the students, you know, the basketry. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Same thing with the senior center, in El Corazon [gestures to Linda]. LK: El Corazon. DC: We just did that for three days, and they really enjoyed it. LK: We cannot leave out one other entity, which was the Mission— DC: —Oh! LK: —San Luis Rey. How could we forget that. DC: [laughs] You know, she’s sees, she’s getting me into the basketry thing, here. Um, San Luis Rey—people don’t understand. San Luis Rey is one of the missions here that is not part of the diocese, or owned by the Catholic Church, per se. They’re owned by the Franciscan order of the Catholic Church. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Or, errr, I’m not—I’m a Catholic, but I’m not that kind. I’m not a practicing Catholic. Let’s put it that way. But, um, so they’re owned by the Franciscans. San Luis Rey, Santa Barbara, and there’s one more, and I’m going to better learn that one too because there’s three missions in the state of California that are not part of the “Catholic.” San Juan Capistrano is part of the Orange County diocese. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And they bring in the most money for the missions in the state of California. San Juan Capistrano does, because you’ve got to pay to get in, you know, and everything else. But anyway. The friars—well, they’re not—they’re friars—the Franciscan order, um, are there, at the San Luis Rey Mission. You don’t know that they’re there, because they’re not really public other than when you see ‘em walking around in their brown robes. They have a retreat there. They live there. They study there. They go through their schooling, sometimes, there at the San Luis Rey Mission. And I was notified by Gwen, the director, and Helena, whose at the museum, that they 25 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 were having a retreat there. And they wanted a activity, and so Gwen says “Contact Diania, and see if they want to do a basketry.” Well, Father David, or Brother David—he’s up at Santa Barbara now—he used to be here at San Luis Rey, and my brother used to work with him. And he knew I did baskets. That’s why he probably agreed. But these Franciscans were coming from all over the world. They weren’t just coming from the United States. They were coming as novices; ones that are almost going to graduate into their order; some that were graduated already into the order; some that were retiring from the order. Some they didn’t speak English. And, um, there was forty, almost fifty of them. LK: Forty-six. DC: Forty-six of them, and they were there for a week [chuckles] And they asked “Diania, would you mind doing, you know, a demonstration and talking about the basketry, or people, etc.?” My brother videoed it, you know, and I haven’t really even seen it yet. I think he gave you a copy, right? LK: It’s great. DC: Okay. I have to give Roberta—not Roberta, but Reinette and Ella Sue, I think, also. But, um, I says “Okay, I need four weavers, and uh, to do this.” And we did that in the back of the mission, and here I was expecting—when we were setting up, all of us were expecting—there’s Linda Kallas, Ella Sue Snyder (she’s a Acjachemen), Reinette (I can’t pronounce her last name. My cousin—Reinette Omah, Olvera, but I can’t pro—) LK: Olvera. DC: Yeah, but she goes by that Italian married— LK: Contreras. DC: No, no. It starts with an “A” [indicates a letter “A” as if writing in the air]. Anyway. LK: Okay. DC: And you, and me, okay. Linda was—Linda, who was going to interview me, she goes “Me?” and I says “Oh yeah. You know how to do these! You’ve been sittin’ with us for a while. You can come in here.” And we’re going to do the Cherokee style basket. I just gave a talk about our traditional materials, etc. So, we get all set up and here come these men, you know, coming through. You know, I, I was expecting them to come into—with their robes on. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, their brown robes. That’s what I was expecting. Here these men come in. They’re in shorts. They got T-shirts on that say “Surf’s Up!” you know. All these different things coming home with these hats, sandals, barefoot, you know. I mean, they’re coming from the retreat area, you know, tennis shoes on, and all different ages. And it was interesting because I’m going “Whoa, okay.” You would have, you would have put them on the street. You would not have known that they were friars, okay. And, uh, like I said, all ages. They had a—we had a 26 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 good time, laughing, etc. Like I said, we do have that, um, if you knew my brother did with that. They were all anxious. They made beautiful baskets. [laughs] LK: They were so impressed with you, and um— DC: You know. LK: They were so grateful and so full of gratitude for learning that skill— DC: Yeah. Well, we took a lot— LK: They really enjoyed it. DC: Well, we took a picture, a group picture, at the end and then we had all their baskets on top of that one rocker area. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And you can see that these baskets—[turning to her left, and reaching for something] I showed you this [holds up the little basket that she showed previously in the interview] and this is mine. But that doesn’t mean that you’re going to make the same thing like this. Your basket is, is going to be completely different. Even though they start out the same, your basket will be with what you create with your hands. [puts down basket] And so that’s what they were really impressed with, because we had some beautiful baskets. You had some real nice round ones [gestures a round object]. You had flat ones [gestures flat object]. You had long ones [gestures a tall object] and they just had a good time. LK: They cherished them, right? DC: Oh, it was a—it was—it was—it was rewarding, you know, on that. But that’s what happens when we do that. We did it with the seniors— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —out there, and they all thought that they were going to be making their own little ba— baskets that we showed them. And then when they finally was looking at it, even the men there, you know, everything was different. And so, that’s what I enjoyed about the baskets. Even with the kids, you know, they don’t— No two baskets are alike. LK: Exactly. And, expanding on that, we have the elementary school named Pablo Tac after a Luiseño native that was educated in the Mission. But also, you’re—you have an opportunity to demonstrate there coming up, correct? DC: Yes, coming up on November 4th, 2022. I’ll be demonstrating and so will Roberta— hopefully Reinette will be there—traditional weaving. We’re not going to be teaching. That’s probably, hopefully coming up next year. LK: Yes. DC: You know, on that. We just had the demonstration also at Camp Pendleton. 27 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Uh, there. I’m a docent for the Santa Margarita Ranch and Lost Forest Ranch, docent there at Camp Pendleton. But I’ve been working with the Archaeology department since, uh, ugh, ‘90s with Stan Berryman and then Danielle [Page], and now Kelly Bracken is in charge of it so—. Because we have a lot of sites there on ran—on Camp Pendleton. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: People don’t realize it, that we’ve got over 600 some building sites there, and sites, and sacred sites, etc., on Camp Pendleton, so we’re kept close with the—they’re kept close with the different tribes. And since I’m the weaver in the native plants, I have a different aspect of it. I try to make that, if the plants are out there, please, you know, don’t do this with them, and stuff. So, they notify us that if we have native plants there, do you want us to move them. Do you want to collect them, etc. They do have a native garden there that we do collect the deer grass from, which is up there by the pavilion, behind the new hospital. Um, that way I know they’re not being sprayed, when we go there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: We just did elderberry tree, um, [chuckles] gathering from the berries, and I made some for your, for you for your husband. I thought I was making jelly, and it ended up being syrup. But he likes, he loves it, you know, ‘cuz we gathered there at Camp Pendleton, because [chuckles again], because then I know that, um, also those aren’t being sprayed. And, so there’s different areas by Camp Pendleton. Plus, with the cultural, okay. And why I started with the, the new General, the Commander-in-Chief, there, at –I can’t think of it. I just—I worked with her, and um, was—a— how?—docent there for the Santa Margarita Ranch. They were going to be the ones dealing with the party. She had her fiesta there, a couple weeks ago. And, um, I didn’t want to just be the docent dressed in the—how can I say this?— We dressed in this Spanish shawl. I don’t know if you’ve seen the docents from center. [gestures to someone other than Linda Kallas, seated to her left] You’ve been there, right? And, uh—Tanis. And, uh, we have that costume [still looking to the other person] or the regalia that they use. I’m comin’ in, because I put these on [hold up her necklace] and I’m, you know, trying to keep the Native American thing going there. And you heard me [points to person off camera, and continues to talk to him/her] this last meeting, you know, and Larry was over here [points to opposite direction, and laughs]. Uh, it’s that, uh, react? That we’ve forgotten, you know, on that. And they do think—they kind of forget us. But anyway, and so I says [still talking to the person off camera] “I’m not going to be a docent. I just—can I come in and do traditional weaving, you know, with our people,” with her. And she just said [shaking her head]—she says “heck yes, please, let’s come in” and stuff. So, um, I had the drapes on there. I wasn’t going to go San Luis Rey Band because we were all San Luis Rey Band members that were going to do this traditional weaving demonstration. But we’re all CIBA members also. So, I used this California Basket weavers —uh, weaving drape on our table. They put us up there, you know, with the rest of them, and, um, I had Mark, who is our weaver, one of our top weavers for our tribe. He had—he was demonstrating his baskets. We were all doing a demonstration, and, and appreciating that, you know, on there. That’s the last 28 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 thing we did on the traditional, you know, weaving thing with Camp Pendleton. Then we’re going to do this one November 4. LK: And then the Jubilation of the Valley Festival? DC: Oh yeah, we’re going to have, coming up in November— LK: —the Luiseño Day. Mm-hmm— DC: —Spirit of the Valley— LK: —Spirit of the Valley. DC: —with Studio Ace. And we’re going to be doing baskets there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And I’m going to be doing teaching the Cherokee style— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —okay? It’s not gonna—it’s not Luiseño style. And so we’re going to be doing, uh, [sighs] all day [laughs]— LK: And you’ve been invited— DC: —from 11 to 3. LK: —to do basket weaving at a senior dance at the— DC: Aw, come on now, [gestures pushing away from herself with her right hand] I know. LK: [laughs] DC: It’s just a—thank you, Linda. Um, that’s December 15th. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And that’s coming in because of the senior center over there. That’s just an activity they wanted us to do. Plus, we do basket traditional weaving in front of the Mission, hopefully, every 4th Sunday of the month. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But sometimes we don’t, because we have other things to do. So it’s almost a contact— they—a website, or contact one of us to do that. We do it at Rancho Guajome, but we’ll kind of travel with our weaving person. Um, one of the things I want to say is that I do get feedback sometimes from our own Indian people—“why are you in front of the Mission, Diania?” okay, you know. Because they see a pictures of the background where we’re weaving, and, um—“why are you doing it on the, on the Mission grounds?” I mean, you have this animosity with some of our people that have gone through the Mission system and their ancestors were really treated bad, etc. I’m not going to say the missions were the best things that happened to the indigenous 29 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 people in the state of California, or even in the other missionaries throughout the, throughout the different tribal people— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —in Indian country. But, I’m trying to tell them “I’ll let you know. I’m not there to, to praise the Mission. Don’t get me wrong, okay? I have my aspects with them, too, but I’m there— we’re there, really, to respect and honor our ancestors that are buried there.” I’ve got a lot of family that’s buried there in that old cemetery. I know our ancestors had built that mission and helped it. We’ve got a lot of ancestors that are buried in those grounds that aren’t in the cemeteries. When you had your epidemics, the pox, the small pox epidemic— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —there’s a lot of burials in, on those grounds at the Mission that had to do multiple burials real fast. So, we’re there honoring our people. I’m not there to honor the Mission. And, I have to let them know that. I mean, don’t get me wrong. I was raised with the Catholic there. My mom went to school there. My great-grandfather, he was part, you know. Every Sunday it seemed like the Father was always there in his house at the ranch there in the valley, having dinner. But I don’t really have that, um, hatred, or whatever you want to call it— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —to the Mission system. Yes, they know that they’ve done wrong. My brother and I sit on the committee for the 225 anniversary that’s coming up, honoring San Luis Rey Mission. I’m there on it, and so is he, to make sure the indigenous people aren’t forgotten. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They’ve got to have something that’s, that’s still representing, you know, them with the ethnic group. We have our powwow there that’s been there for 23 years, you know. We just haven’t had it since Covid. And that’s another thing that’s on the Mission grounds. You have some of the indigenous people who will not come to our powwow because it’s on Indi—on mission grounds. But, to me, that’s personal for them. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The Mission has not been at a controversy for us. Yes, we know some of our ancestors were treated wrong, you know. You can walk in that Mission, and, um, you can see different things that, um, and the stories you hear, you know, and the longondria <sic> that’s going down there, where they had to do the washing and stuff. You’ve got Pablo Tac. You know, he came from that Mission, and was taught, who can, you know, going back to Barcelona, you know, and Rome also, and is buried over there, and died. But, um, you—we—how can I say this? San Luis Rey Mission, they, the Luiseños around the Mission San Luis Rey weren’t as— LK: It was a— DC: —progressive as 30 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: —Luiseño village, correct? DC: Yes, it was a Luiseño village there, but they didn’t attempt to burn it down like the Kumeyaay did, at the old—in San Diego. They burned that mission down three times [holds up three fingers]. But it comes with people, and how they took it, um, as a, as a rewards system, or whatever. Okay? They were fed! Can you imagine? I mean, ee were nomads and gatherers and movers. Meaning nomadic, it’s not like we moved all over [gestures in a sweeping motion]. It was like we went from ocean to the mountains [points from right to left, indicating movement from west to east] to gather and to the desert [points forward]. You see what I’m saying. As being nomadic. We didn’t have “a permanent” village. We knew what village we came from, but if we had to go, you had people that probably stayed there, the elders, and then the rest went out to gather. But we weren’t a warring people. Sure, we probably fought with the Kumeyaay and any others that came through. But with the Kumeyaay people, they were warring people. Now, they came from the, from the Colorado area. I mean, you’re looking at warriors, you know, came across, and when they were doing that with the missions and stuff, you know, you—they—it was on their land. They, they didn’t like it. They, you know, they, and they, to me, with San Diego Mission, um, and you read the history on that, it, it was, it was harsh. Where here, Father Peri — 'cuz remember, San Luis Rey was the 19th mission. It was the one that—it was at almost the end that it was built. Okay? And San Luis Capistrano really was the 2nd one. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then they come around there [circles her arm] and they built San Luis Rey, 19-what, a number 19, in 1798. Okay? So, you’re looking at all these other missions that were built way before that. Father Peri, he—his system was more with the native people. Yes, you could come, but he let ‘em build around him, also. But it was not the Fathers that were chased in the mission, the Indians. It was the soldiers at the—that’s who were supposedly protecting the Fathers. They were the ones that went out and chased the Indians down. They were the ones that did the punishments, when they had their, their, their soldiers—the ones that were in charge—they took it to their head, you know, I mean, to do the punishment, because as far as native indigenous people were below the Mexican people. You had the Indians [gestures making layers, indicating layers of hierarchy], then you had the Mexicans, the Spaniards, you understand, that, that— LK: Were higher, you know. DC: —hierarchy. So, um, I don’t have that too much on there, you know, with that. Everybody has their own. I have it because the missions only because they kept ‘em down [gestures downward with her right hand], and they did use ‘em—I wouldn’t—I don’t use the word slave, but they—I guess, slave labor. They were the laborers, where else they really didn’t—they didn’t get paid. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, on there. And then when the missions were done, and the secularization, when they did that, they were lost. They cried, you know. I mean, they were starving, because of that—and then what had happened, the ranchers got us here, Picos, the Marrons, the Couts, all of 31 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 the rest of them—they went and destroyed the mission. They were, they were tearing it apart. They were taking the beams. They were taking all the statues. They were taking the different things, and using them to build. You know, you get some of these ranchers, they have some of the beams on that are from—that are from the Mission. The artifacts. LK: Wild. DC: You know. But you don’t hear that side of the story. That’s why at Camp Pendleton and Rancho Santa Margarita and them, when it, they hid the stories and that—“Come on, you guys, you know. Pico wasn’t the best guy.” LK: Mm-hmm. DC: He, he was really one of those really against the Indians. LK: So, in addition to your passion and your education with the basketry, you are like a historian of your people, and the area, and I see that you brought some other materials. Is there anything you want share? DC: [again reaching to the left] Well, one of the things is that, uh, okay, and I know that for you, you’re trying to do this. I did study the language [holds up some leaves of paper], but since I didn’t—wasn’t able to have—speak to somebody, I went through the Pechanga — LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —and they sent me to Cal State—I mean, to Riverside, also to the international classes that was there. But since I didn’t have anybody to communicate with [gestures as if transmitting words to another person], it was hard for me. I can read it, and I can probably understand it when they’re—when they start talking to me, you know— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —get the words right. But I’m fortunate that I did have that. But this is one [looks at paper] of the things that I’m going to share—I’m going to be sharing this at the, uh, Spirit of the Valley, once they get over there. But it’s like this one here, okay? [turns paper toward Linda. The paper is laminated, and has a colored drawing of a deer, with the word ‘şúukat’] You hear that one What’s that? LK: Soosh-kah? Soo-kah— DC: Soos-kwaht, okay? LK: Soos-kwaht. DC: Deer. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Okay. I’m just going to be doing that. This is for the children. Ishwoot? [holds up a laminated drawing of a wolf with word ‘ˈíswut’] What’s that? Ishwoot. 32 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: That is a wolf. DC: Yeah, wolf. Okay? And then this is something that I use with kids [holds up a laminated drawing of a grasshopper with word ‘wiˈét’]. Whee-uht. LK: Grasshopper. DC: Or cricket. LK: Or cricket. DC: Yeah. Whee-uht. And so, you see in these names—why I use these, because you see in these names, being with the native kids now, that they’re being named this. [holds up a laminated drawing of a bear with word ‘húnwut’] LK: Hunwhat. DC: Hunwhat. LK: It’s a bear. DC: It’s a bear. Children are being named that now, with these, especially with these names here, with their—for the children. They’re proud of being called ‘hun-what.’ They’re proud of being called ‘soos-kwaht,’ called—proud of being called ‘whee-uht,’ you know, instead of just being called “cricket,” you know, on there. And so that was one of the things that I found I have been proud to do, you know, on that. And then, also, you have “Tuk-woot” [holds up a laminated drawing of a cougar with word ‘túˈkwet’]. Who is this? LK: A cougar or mountain lion. DC: It’s a cougar, okay? LK: Cougar? DC: You have ‘tuk-woot’ village, ‘tuk-woot’ village, ‘tuk-woot’ court, at Cal State San Marcos! LK: Yes, that’s right! DC: Okay? “Aush-woot?” [holds up a laminated drawing of a hawk with word ‘áşwut’] I know that’s not a [unintelligible] of an eagle, but that’s an ‘aush-woot.’ The eagle. LK: The eagle. DC: Yeah. And these are words that, um, are the alphabet, pretty long, you know, and considered more than 26 letters, that are important to the kids because they can identify with them. You know. I also have a coloring book, and you know, 1-2-3 and stuff like that I’m sharing. But one of these [reaches to the left for something else] that I want to end with, if you don’t mind, is that if, um, [sighs] in 2004, this is the Heritage Keepers [holds up a magazine entitled “Heritage Keepers”]. This is a magazine coming from the Ramon Learning Center [reads back of magazine] 33 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: Hmmm. DC: Okay. And, um, it’s still going on from Banning, California. And I wrote a poem [opening magazine, and finding page where poem is printed], um, and I wanted to read it and share it with you. Is that okay? LK: Yes! I would love that. DC: Okay. It’s that, um, I wrote this poem when I was doing the—learning the Luiseño language, and I had to write this poem because I was, um, trying to pull the words out [gestures as if churning things over in her head] of my head that I knew. And where I was at—it was Teeter Romero and I were up in Rainbow, up there by north of us here. And we were going to go out there to gather Juncus in Gomez Creek area, which is behind Riamb—Rainbow. You gotta go up the mountain. And when we were up there at the top of the hill—it was early in the morning, and we stopped because we looked out towards the valley towards the ocean [points to the left] and that morning it was clear. You can—you could—you could see the, see the ocean shining clear at the, at the other end, which is really not— [shakes her head]. But then you saw El Moro Kukutuk, okay? That’s another story. One day you might have to say it, but Kutukutuk too, is part of our creation story. And you can see that mound really clearly, with the ocean in the background, shimmering, and that mound there in the valley near Camp Pendleton, and Bonsall and Fallbrook area. In this part of our creation story, I got these things in my head as I’m looking at it, and I thought of our people. Because of the creation story, of trying to be saved. They were, they—we had the flood, also, in our creation story. And all I could think of, and was watching it, seeing the ocean shimmering, seeing that mound and thinking of “Oh my God, that’s what came up. The ocean came up.” And the people were running, because the water was coming in and coming in, and they had nothing to save ‘em. And the people from Pechanga were up there on their high point [points up with left hand], which is up there by Rainbow. If you ever go by Pechanga on the back way you’ll see the big hill that’s up there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That’s one of their lookouts, and I don’t know that there—the name of it, but it’s a point. And they were looking at the people, you know, the Luiseño people in the valley, running. And all they could do was keep singing. Now I don’t—I have the words to that song, that they had— that they started there. But, I don’t have that with me right now. But they were singing up there to hopefully save their people. They’re crying for them, and trying to save, save their people. Well, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, this mound comes up. And so they were watching their people swimming towards it, and running towards it. And this mound kept coming up, and that’s more—El Moro Hill, or Kuktuk. That is a volcano cone. People don’t realize that, you know, we do have volcanic areas— [laughs] LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —in this area. And that’s a volcano cone that came up and our people in that valley, meaning my ancestors, okay—were saved. They were able to go on to Tuktuk, El Moro Hill, and 34 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 come up, and go up there. You can visit that here—uh, that mound or that little knoll or dell, if you want to call it. It’s on Indian Rock Road. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It’s Sleeping Indian Rock. It’s Sleeping Indian Road [scratches head] right there. Part of it’s on Camp Pendleton. Part of it’s in Fallbrook. And, part of it is owned by the County of San Diego. You can’t build on it. You can build on—near it, but you can’t build on the Camp Pendleton side, because that’s a blind—ammunition dump. And the Navy owns it. Fallbrook owns a third of it, and San Diego County owns a third. There’s a trail that you can go up on there, if you want to visit it and go, and there’s a hearth on the top that they do celebrations, ceremonies up there. My great-grandmother was born there, at the base of that El Moro Hill. So, yeah, we’ve got history in there, and, you know, our aunt used to tell—my aunt, my great aunt, used to tell stories, you know, about that— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —and they used to go, go there. But what I did was wrote a poem as I was doing, uh, looking at it, and I was thinking, my language is going in my head, but I could only pick out some words that I knew at that time. So it’s called "Naqmayam” and I was saying it—first saying it in Luiseño, then I’ll read it again in English, what it meant. LK: Okay. DC: Okay. It says “Naqmayam. Toonquay qawiinga/noo toowq ‘ataxmi/naqmayam/noo toowq ‘ataxmi heelaqal/‘ataaxum naqmawun! Popuu’uk ponakilvoy/yu’pan heth’aan/no$uun toonavan ‘ataaxum poomoto/naqmayam! Heelaxam!” Now, I usually sing this, I know. It’s just—it’s— it’s—I usually—it sticks after a while, I’m singing it, because I do sing it, at the Mission on All Soul’s Day. [chuckles] So, if you come on All Soul’s Day, on November 2nd, around 6 o’clock, between 6 and 6:30, I’ll be doing it and lighting the candles there, and I’ll be—I can sing it. And why I like to sing it, it’s sometimes I can hear my voice [gestures to her right ear], it bounces off the mission wall. It scared me the first time that it happened— LK: [chuckles] DC: —because I never had an echo come back like that. And, anyway, “naqmayam” means “listen.” “Toonquay qawiinga” means “from the rock on the mountain.” Naqmayam. I see the people. I see the people singing. People listen. The door was closed. Again it will open. My heart will weave among the people. Listen and sing. I wasn’t looking at them crying, you know. I was thinking about them singing, and being happy. And the door was closed at one time for us, but it was now opening. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then my heart, at that time, with the weaving, there, my heart will weave among the people. And, um, so it was kind of, you know—and they published it, in that—in that—in there— 35 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: It’s beautiful. DC: —It kind of gives the story of me. This has happened in 2003 [laughs]. And that’s how long ago, with the language. And I’m still trying to bring the language back, you know, I mean, we did it with—for a while when we were together with the Rotary Club. But then again I’m doing it, trying to get it back with people, and with our people, on that. It’s still going on at the Pechanga, with this fantastic Pechanga . I started back with them, way back when, and they started at the preschool. And then, now, they’ve taken it all the way up through their 6th grade there on their reservation at Pechanga. They don’t speak any English in the classes. All their instructors or the teachers have to learn the language. It’s taught in Luiseño. They’ve got an agreement with the school district of Temecula, that they follow them all the way through school, all the way through high school, that they have to release them at least, I don’t know how many times a week, to be brought in and taught their language, to keep it up. LK: That’s wonderful. DC: They take it all the way through high school. But, Pechanga has done really good. Pauma is also―has a class there, you know. Pauma does. Rincon does. Pala, uh, I don’t know if Pala does. But, each one has a different, like a dialect, you know. The only sad thing is when you get politics coming in. I’m just going to let you guys know. Politics is really deep within the tribes, on there, and um, I’m right, you’re wrong, etc. And it’s sad, because we’re all the one people, but that’s the way it goes. You’re born into being an indigenous people, not just for us here in California, but across the United States. You’re born into politics, whether you like it or not. So, um― LK: Well, I just want to close with saying that it’s been an honor and absolute pleasure to interview you and listen to you. I want to acknowledge that you went from accounting to weaving to becoming an educator of your pe―of your tribal background, and also a historian, and I think a big part of your legacy is to keep this out there. And you’re doing it pretty much on your own. It’s not like you have all this, um, Federal money behind you, like the federally recognized tribes, so― DC: We don’t have that [shaking her head] LK: ―you do not have that. You’re not federally recognized. But I just wanted to honor that in you, and thank you so much for allowing me to do this. DC: Okay. LK: No $uun. DC: Noh [bowing her head, and chuckling] I was going to say No $uun Looviq. 36 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 NAQMAYAM TOONQA Y QAWIINGA From the rock on the mountain NOO TOOWQ 'ATAXMI I see the people NAQMAYAM Listen NOO TOOWQ 'ATAXMI HEELAQAL I see the people singing 'ATAAXUM NAQMA WUN! People listen! POPUU'UK PONAKILVOY The door was closed YU'PAN HETH'AAN Again it will open NO$UUN TOONAVAN 'AT AAXUM POOMOTO My heart will weave among the people NAQMAYAM! HEELAXAM! Listen! Sing! Written by Diania L Caudell @2003 37 Transcribed by Melissa Martin � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Caudell, Diania. Interview transcript. October 27, 2022. Description An account of the resource Interview with Diania Caudell focused on her Native American ancestry as well as her past occupation as an accountant. Also included is her implementation of Native American education in the San Juan Capistrano School District and how her back injury led her to become a basket weaver. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. The end of the transcript contains a glossary and a poem written by Caudell in 2003 in the Luiseño language, with English translation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Diania Caudell Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Linda Kallas Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-27 Subject The topic of the resource Basket making Education -- Native Americans Luiseño Indians Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Arizona Escondido (Calif.) Oceanside (Calif.) San Juan Capistrano (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Luiseño Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Diania Caudell License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. 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In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CaudellDiania _KallasLinda_2022-10-17_transcript.mp4 Art and artists Community history Native American experience North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Stella Clark OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ClarkStella_VisintainerSean_2023-08-09.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Clark, Stella. Interview August 9, 2023. SC027-46 01:26:18 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm California State University San Marcos ; Education, Higher ; California State University San Marcos. Modern Language Studies Department ; Kansas University ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; California State University San Bernadino ; San Bernadino (Calif.) ; Roma (Motion picture : 2018) ; Colonia Roma (Mexico City, Mexico) ; Mexicans--United States ; Mexican Americans--California--San Diego County ; Mexican Americans--Education (Higher) ; Immigrants--United States Stella Clark Sean Visintainer Video ClarkStella_VisintainerSean_2023-08-09.mp4 1.0:|22(4)|31(19)|44(8)|53(8)|72(13)|102(3)|117(3)|127(8)|135(7)|146(14)|162(6)|173(10)|186(7)|201(5)|212(11)|223(6)|238(8)|248(16)|258(10)|268(12)|282(4)|293(3)|304(10)|316(14)|328(9)|338(3)|347(11)|361(6)|377(13)|388(5)|400(13)|415(19)|425(7)|441(7)|451(3)|460(16)|469(15)|481(10)|491(6)|502(15)|517(16)|527(15)|537(3)|548(8)|560(4)|572(12)|591(5)|601(16)|611(14)|621(6)|635(6)|645(16)|653(18)|672(6)|680(15)|690(4)|701(10)|717(3)|731(7)|739(14)|752(5)|763(8)|772(16)|784(6)|794(14)|817(15)|827(12)|837(4)|848(13)|857(17)|866(3)|884(5)|896(4)|906(5)|915(11)|927(6)|940(12)|953(17)|962(9)|972(11)|984(11)|997(13)|1006(14)|1018(5)|1032(13)|1049(9)|1056(3) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/110ee8dd522d39f94e58d60fb1d44cf4.mp4 Other video english 0 Interview Introduction Interview with Dr. Stella Clark, August 9th, 2023. 0 44 Education and life synopsis Stella Clark is originally from Mexico City and moved to the U.S., East Lansing Michigan to be precise, in the eighth grade. She then moved to Oxford Mississippi in which she would be there from her high school years and into college. She discusses the culture shock she experienced and how schools were segregated at the time. Clark then moved to Kansas and received a masters and a PhD at Kansas University. She would eventually meet her husband while attending the university and then move to California and got her first job at California State University, San Bernardino. PhD ; Masters ; Mexico City ; Jose Clark ; Oxford, Mississipi ; East Lansing, Michigan ; California State University, San Bernadino 0 331 Living in Colonia Roma/Moving to U.S. Clark is from Colonia Roma, Mexico and her father first came to the U.S. to pursue his PhD in Texas. Once he finished, Clark's family moved to Lansing, Michigan where her father intended that the whole family would eventually achieve PhDs. Her mother received a PhD in Spanish just like Clark would in the future, and her father received a PhD in economics. Clark then goes on to describe her love for Mexico and how urbane it was compared to where she lived in the United States. She explains the difficulty of living in Michigan in regards to the social and cultural customs. Clark would soon move to Mississippi where she the ethos was similar to Mexico. PhD ; Texas ; Michigan State ; Mississippi ; Lansing, Michigan ; Colonia Roma ; Mexico ; cultural ; social customs 0 949 Spanish skills/Majoring in French Clark explains how she would maintain her Spanish speaking skills within the U.S. by reading novels. She eventually would earn her bachelor's degree in French and would pursue a graduate degree in French as well at KU. However, the department split and she would end up receiving a graduate degree in Spanish. This is where she would take multiple Spanish classes in which Clark not only maintained but advanced her Spanish speaking skills. Clark also spoke Spanish at home and would go on to marry a Cuban immigrant, whom she also spoke Spanish with. Spanish ; French ; Kansas University ; Ole Miss University ; Mississippi ; Cuban ; Married ; Graduate school ; Bachelors 0 1367 Teenage years/Finding her place Clark discusses how the U.S. education system underwent a transformative shift, evolving from a highly regimented structure to a greater emphasis on fostering individual student success. There was more flexibility and freedom within the classroom but still some rigidity that did not line up. Clark explains how she developed faster than most girls and it made it challenging for her to get along with the other teenage girls. It was not until she moved to Oxford, Mississippi that she would feel like she found her place and would meet her childhood best friend. regimented ; education shift ; transformation ; culture shock ; rigidity ; teenage ; mississippi ; 1950's 0 1910 Getting her PhD/ Meeting her husband Clark went to Kansas University (KU) to pursue her PhD in French which would become a PhD in Spanish. She explains how she met her husband at KU and would get married only a year after seeing one another. The main reason for the quick marriage was due to how conservative society was at the time and how she could jeopardize her position at the university. PhD ; Kansas University ; Latin America ; Marriage 0 2374 Clark's first professional position After receiving her PhD Clark would land her first job at California State University San Bernardino and her husband would get a job at the library at the same university. She explains how she would reject various administrative jobs for the sake of her husband. Eventually she would encourage him to go to graduate school so he could have a career out of being a librarian. Clark explains how her and her husband complement one another in terms of their professions. administrative ; career ; PhD 0 2695 Moving to California/Starting at CSUSM Clark explains how California is in such close proximity to Mexico and how it is advertised as paradise. She recalls how she made her switch from working at CSUSB to California State University San Marcos (CSUSM) from her desire to work in administration. However the position at CSUSM was a lot more intense since she had to create a program from scratch. 0 3049 Creating CSUSM's language lab Clark was tasked with creating a language lab at CSUSM and used her connections from CSUSB to help her build the lab. She explains how she built the lab and what was required from her. Clark learned that in order to get the best things one has to wheel and deal and ask for things that would make them excel in their positions. She explains how her focus was to help students become versatile in their career, but also highlighted the importance of faculty supporting them within their journey. &#13 ; language lab ; creating department 0 3602 Clark's dissertation Clark explains how her dissertation in graduate school was very unconventional and all the struggles she went through in order to get it approved. She was using an American method of close reading on Mexican literature in which analyzed the patterns of an individual. She explains how this would later help her in her career and help her understand individuals. dissertation ; academia ; graduate ; levi strauss ; spanish literature ; american literature 0 3926 Challenges of creating a department Clark describes the biggest challenges she experienced when founding the department at CSUSM. She explains how faculty on the campus often forgot that they are working for a community in which the students pay for their own schooling and support themselves. Clark admires how these students genuinely care for their education and want to learn in which was different to the students she taught at KU. She compares how different the students values were at CSUSM than to Kansas University. public education ; Kansas University ; student success 0 4251 What Clark's students have taught her Clark explains the challenges her students would go through but still managed to achieve their academic goals. She has a deep respect for CSUSM's students due to their resilience and desire to actually learn. She explains how she would buy books for her students who may not have been able to afford them and allow them to keep it for their own personal library. hardworking ; resiliance ; student success ; CSUSM student body 0 4643 "Roma" (the movie) Clark explains how the movie Roma perfectly describes what her life was like growing up in Roma, Mexico. The movie allowed her to understand the life of the working class in Mexico and see them from a different vantage point. She also explains how living in the U.S. as an exile how you always will feel a sense of foreignness. exile ; foreignness ; displacement ; mexico ; Roma 0 Video Dr. Stella Clark grew up in Colonia Roma, Mexico City, and moved to the U.S. in her early childhood. She grew up in a family who valued education ; both her parents received a PhD and she was expected to get one as well. Clark received her bachelor's degree in French and her master's and PhD degrees in Spanish. She began her professional career at California State University, San Bernardino and eventually applied to California State University San Marcos, where she founded the Modern Languages Department and created the university's language lab. Clark discusses how she made an impact not only on her students learning but life as well by encouraging all to pursue their academic dreams, and on the struggles that working students and women students face in getting an eduction. Visintainer: All right. Clark: Okay. Visintainer: All right. Thank you, Stella. This is Sean Visintainer, head of Special Collections at California State University San Marcos. Today I'm interviewing Dr. Stella Clark for our University Archives oral history collection. The date is August 9th, 2023, and this recording is happening on Zoom. Dr. Clark, thank you so much for interviewing with us today. Clark: I'm happy to be here answering your questions and having a chat with you. Visintainer: Yes. So we're really happy that you could join me for this interview as well. And so I wanted to start off talking about your childhood. And I understand you're originally from Mexico? Clark: I am. Visintainer: Where from, where in Mexico are you from? Clark: Well, I was born someplace else, but I should say that I was brought up in Mexico City. So, it's actually a big city. From the time that I was born, I was taken there. So it's not, you know, I mean it's--I didn't really change my life that much. Because actually Mexico City was a lot more advanced than where I went to live here in the United States. Because it was a city of five million. And I went to live in a town that had maybe twenty thousand? So, my dad was a college professor and he moved the whole family in the fifties. And I came along with the family. And my first experience in the United States was when I was in the eighth grade, in East Lansing, Michigan. So, it was quite a culture shock for me. Not because of Mexico to the US but because of the big city to the small town. And then we ended up living in Mississippi for most of, most of my high school years and my college years. So I ended, I started with the Midwest and then ended up in the South. And that is the deep south, Oxford, Mississippi. That's where I went to high school. And I went to college there. Visintainer: Okay. Clark: So that was a big culture shock, not because of the US thing, but because I came from the Midwest where I was getting kind of adjusted to US life in a small town to the big, to a smaller town in the south. And there was segregation at the time. So, of course I went to the white high school. Just because of the way I look. They never, they didn't think in the South, you're either black or you're white. At least at the time. They didn't go into any refinements of, you know, mestizo or mixed race or anything like that. So I ended up going to a white high school, and then I went to Ole Miss, the University of Mississippi. That's where I got my first degree. And then I ended up again in the Midwest, ‘cause I went to the University of Kansas for my graduate studies. And that's where another culture shock, because going from the deep South to the real--to the corn belt, you know? That was very conservative very, kind of a dull place to be, except that Lawrence, Kansas was a wonderful, wonderful town. And I got my degrees from the University of Kansas, both degrees, the MA and the PhD. And I met my husband there. And that was another culture shock because he's Cuban. And he was, you know, brought up very Cuban, even though he had lived in the US quite a bit. And so, we got married in 1967, so we just celebrated our fifty-sixth anniversary. Visintainer: Congratulations. Clark: Thank you. Yeah. We--our wedding date was August fifth, so we just celebrated it by doing nothing. (laughter) Visintainer: That's how we just celebrated ours as well. Clark: Oh, congratulations to you. (Visintainer laughs) Visintainer: Thank you. Clark: So anyway, it was a, it was a very pleasant time at the University of Kansas. And then my whole--my dream was always to come to California. So, when I was--I started looking for a job. I applied to a lot of places in California and I sent like five hundred letters, something like that. And then my first job, full-time faculty job was at Cal State San Bernardino. And I ended up staying there for nineteen years. So that was a whole early career, was at Cal State San Bernardino. Do you have any questions so far? Visintainer: I do. I actually wanted to circle back to Mexico. Clark: Okay. Visintainer: What neighborhood in Mexico City where you from? Clark: Colonia Roma. Visintainer: Okay. Okay. Clark: Have you seen the movie? Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. I saw Roma. And I've been there myself. It's a beautiful area. Clark: I lived there. I lived about five blocks from where that movie was shot. Visintainer: Okay. And that movie took place, when was that movie? It was the sixties, or? Clark: That was in the seventies. Visintainer: In the seventies. Clark: He (director Alfonso Cuarón) had to change a lot of things. He even had to do the (building) facades, but there are a lot of places that are the same as they were when I was a kid there in that neighborhood. And it was, it was a good place to live. My mother owned two townhouses there in Roma. So that's where I spent most of my childhood. But then she sold the houses when we moved to the US, for $5,000 each. And now, I think that would be in the millions. Visintainer: Yeah. Probably. Clark: It's a desirable neighborhood. Visintainer: Yes. Yeah. Definitely. What were--so why did your parents decide to emigrate? Clark: Well, my dad was a college professor, and college professors don't work out in Mexico very well ‘cause they have to have other careers. They don't pay that much at the university, so they have to have a second career that, like a day job, you know? And so, and my dad was German. That's a long history. I don't, I don't even want to get into that because it's really complicated and interesting. But so he, you know, he married my mother and they decided that they, he wanted to get his PhD in Texas. At the University of Texas. So he went, came to the US to get his PhD and left the family behind. But he started taking us one by one. First he took my mom, then my little brother who was very young. And the whole time we were staying with relatives, so. Anyway, so we ended up finally the whole family in the US in 1956. The whole family in Lansing, Michigan. But we came piecemeal. So it was, you know, staying with aunts and uncles. And living in different areas where I was sort of the, I wasn't really in my, with my family. So we were kind of aimless. Because, you know, since I was with so many different relatives, but my dad had a purpose. And so, he said, when he brought the whole family, he was gonna create a goal for us. And we all ended up studying, you know, higher, getting higher degrees. Having careers. And so, because of my dad. He also made my mother get a PhD. So, we all got degrees at the University of Mississippi first. Visintainer: Okay. And what were your parents' PhDs in? Clark: My mom was in Spanish, like me, and my dad was in economics. He actually turned out to be a pretty well-known professor in the, in Latin American economics. And he was very productive, being a good German. He wrote a lot of books. And he ended up at the University of West Florida. That was his last job. So at the time, professors were not used to staying in one place. They were used to going from job to job to improve their status. And so, he was an assistant professor at Michigan State, and then Mississippi hired him as a full professor. So he jumped a rank, so to speak. And then you know, I always miss Mexico. Even now I miss Mexico. I don't go back very much. But to me, that's just home, you know, or something. I never could get, could develop a love like I have in my heart for Mexico, for any other places where I've lived. Visintainer: What is— Clark: Yes? Visintainer: Oh, I'm sorry to interrupt. What is it that you, what is it that you miss or that has that, that fills that place in your heart when you think of Mexico? Clark: It's hard to describe because when I get together with relatives from down there, I'm immediately at home. You know, it's as if I had never left. And I grew up with a cousin who was my age, and I just hated to leave her so much. She, we were best friends and I always wanted to see her. And I wasn't always able to go back there. And so, you know, I really missed her so much. And just the family relations, the--also Mexico City was so urbane. I always felt like I was kind of in the sticks in the towns that we lived in, in the US. And I would go to Mexico and my cousin was all, you know, she has this hairdo, and I'd say, “What is that?” I've never seen anything like it. Because it was a big city. So you live, it was kind of like being in New York, you know, like a New Yorker living in New York. So, I miss that aspect of it. But I just, I didn't even like Mexican things, you know like Mexican, so-called Mexican food. I never really liked it that much, but as soon as I moved to the US I just, I was missing tortillas. We had to get tortillas--in Michigan, we had to get tortillas in the can. Visintainer: Okay. Clark: And there was no place to go eat anything that was typical. And in my middle school, nobody! Nobody, but nobody spoke Spanish. Not even high school Spanish or anything. So nobody tried to help me out as I was developing. So I was getting used to living there. And I remember that this, the gym class made us, they made us take a shower. And I did not wanna take my clothes off in front of people I did know. Even though they were young girls, but they were strangers. So I did not wanna take my clothes off. So I went to the teacher, tried in my best bad English, tried to explain to her that I didn't wanna take my clothes off in front of my classmates. And she said, “That's too bad. You gotta take a shower. So, you can't just be in gym and then be all sweaty and go back to class.” So I would leave my, my bra and my panties on, and then I would have to go the rest of the day with wet underwear. So, that was just a really bad year for me. (laughs) Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I told my mom, and she finally, you know, I didn't wanna tell my mom I was embarrassed. Finally, she went to talk to the teacher, but she said, “No, no, she has to adjust to the,” you know, it's that mentality that, “No, no, no, she has to adjust.” You know, “Everybody's the same here.” So I had wet underwear the whole year. And in Michigan, that's not pleasant when it's winter. Visintainer: No, that sounds like it would be tough. Clark: Anyway, so that was, and I made friends in Michigan, but I don't know, it wasn't the same. It wasn't my cousins. It wasn't my, you know, I wasn't in the same school as my brother and sister, so that was a bad year for me. And then when we moved to Mississippi everything changed. It was, because Mississippi, believe it or not, the the ethos is more like Mexico (laughs) Because of the stratification, the social stratification. That you were kind of more with middle class people or whatever. And so, I don't know. I hate to say it, because it sounds, you know, I don't wanna admit to anything like that. So anyway, but Oxford was a small town, but it was very friendly, and it was very, they were very welcoming to us. So, everything changed. And that's when I finally started to adjust to living in the US. The people were real characters. Our English teacher in the high school was married to Faulkner's, William Faulkner's best friend. So she was, she was such a character. She would say, “Don't let the lighting bug bite you because you'll never get rid of it.” (laughter) So anyway, so it was, it was a different world. And I finally got used to living there, and I started to miss Mexico a little bit less and less every year. Visintainer: You mentioned that you were learning English when you came to the US if I understood correctly. So— Clark: Yes. I knew a lot of English already, because I had English from the time I was in kindergarten until the eighth grade when I came to the US. So— Visintainer: So you were learning English and kind of in class, I assume, as well as being immersed in the English language. I was curious about your Spanish-language skills. Did you speak Spanish in the home? Clark: Of course. And I never forgot Spanish because I'm a reader, and I just always wanted to keep reading. We--my mother and I went to the library at Michigan State, and we checked out, you know, they had a big collection in Spanish of course. And so I checked out these Argentinian novels, and Colombian novels and everything. So I was always reading something that kept my skills up. I didn't do it on purpose, but I really wanted to stay, keep my Spanish so that when I went back to Mexico, people wouldn't make fun of me. Because they, you know, they said your English, your Spanish starts to get very what they call pocho. Which is, it has a lot of English influence. And I didn't wanna be called pocha. So I kept my Spanish skills as long as I could. And then I majored in French at Ole Miss. I was gonna major in math, but a woman professor who taught third semester calculus said to me, “I know why you're here. You're just looking for a husband.” And she just persecuted me in the class. So I said, “No, who needs this? I don't wanna be in this world.” So I switched to French, and I majored in French. And, and then that's another story, because when I went to--when I applied at KU for graduate school, I was supposed to go in the French department to get my PhD in French. But the department had split that year. It was a romance language department, and it split from Spanish and Portuguese into Spanish and Portuguese and French and Italian. So, they said, “Okay, you go here.” And all of a sudden you had to take all these Spanish classes. And I thought, well, I wonder why, but I'll, I'll take them. And I had taken more classes. They, I got a letter that says, you have to take more Spanish classes. And when I, when I was at Ole Miss, so I took more Spanish classes and I kept taking Spanish lit of different fields. And when I got there and I went to the advisor, he was the chair of the Spanish and Portuguese department, and he said, “You're gonna be teaching Spanish I as a TA (teacher’s assistant), and then you're gonna take these three Spanish classes.” (laughs) So I said, “Well, okay.” (laughter) I didn't, I was twenty you know, what did I know? So, I started taking Spanish classes. And it's a good thing because at the time, French was beginning to decline in demand, and I could never get used to speaking French either. I didn't like to, to say, oh. (laughs) I couldn't, you know, I just couldn't get used to the, the accent. So, I just stayed in Spanish. And that's what since you ask about my skills, they came in handy because I had read a lot of the works already as a kid, and I liked the people in the Spanish department. And that's where I stayed. Visintainer: Yeah, thank you. And I was, I was curious as to, because you went, you ended up, you know, getting your PhD in Spanish, how you kept those skills up being in an environment where outside of your home you didn't necessarily have the opportunity (Visintainer and Clark speaking over each other). Yes. Clark: I met the Cuban when I was my third year of graduate school. And he was in high school. So, his parents were my classmates. And so he was, you know my parents had a fit because he was nineteen. And when we got married, he turned twenty the next day. (laughs) And my parents thought he was gonna, he was too young. He was gonna, you know, leave me after a while. And I, but I thought, “Well, who cares? I'm gonna go for it.” And so, we spoke Spanish at home, and his parents spoke Spanish at, at home. So it was, I got into that other culture. And in fact, I got, I didn't have a Spanish accent when I was in college or with--when I was in high school. But I got, got the Spanish accent after living with Jose for all those years. Because we--and he doesn't have any accent. But anyway, so he came when he was fourteen, and so he had been in the US for five years. So anyway, that's how I ended up staying in the Spanish field. And kind of rediscovering my country through the academic degree. Because I specialize in Mexican literature. I met all these Mexican scholars. And I was in a totally different environment when I got back than I was when I left. I didn't, I only had one aunt who was kind of an academic, but everybody else, you know, they were home. They stayed at home and they didn't, typical Mexican wife role. But I did have an aunt, who had the best collection of Mexican literature that I've ever seen anywhere. And I was trying to get her to leave it to me, but it didn't work out. So. Anyway anything about graduate school, or? Visintainer: Yeah I was, well I was curious when you moved, just to circle back a little bit, when you moved to Lansing. And you moved there, and then you went down south to Mississippi, and you talked about the culture shock. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about the culture shock. What you found as you were just starting to adjust to the Midwest. And then you moved to the South, what you found was shocking and the differences in those places. Clark: Well, the school, first of all, most of the schools I went to had all girls. And of course, the school in Michigan was a mixed, you know, boys and girls. And there were things happening. This is the time in the fifties that when education in the US totally did a change, a pivot, you know. Because I read a book called The Lonely Crowd. And it explains what happened in the US in the fifties, that the school systems started to do things very differently than before. For example, instead of having a desk that flipped--that had a lid, so you could keep all your stuff hidden, and private. It started to have these chairs with a, just a paddle where you could write on, and all your stuff was in view for the rest of the world. And they started to put your stuff on the bulletin board, your work on the bulletin board. And that was very alien to me. I had gone to these schools where everything was very regimented, the nuns and the--even I went to a school that was not Catholic. And it did have boys and girls, but it was very regimented. And you had to obey the teacher. You had to, when the teacher came in the room, you stood up. And when you went--were gonna go out, you had to get in single file. And everything was very regimented. And we wore uniforms. Whereas here in the school in Michigan, no uniforms. The classrooms were all like people sitting around tables. What was that? (laughs) Like the Socratic method, all of a sudden. (laughs) And people sitting around these open tables. And so the kid--the boys would put their feet up on the table, and the teacher didn't say anything. We had a science teacher who brought apples to the class. You know, eating in class? Wow. So things like that. And then just kind of a lack of structure at the time in the, in the school when I was used to all that. But at the same time, this kind of a Nazi-- no, I take that back. The gym teacher who says, “No, you will not, you will take a shower.” She wouldn't even let me like, go early and take a quick shower by myself. You know, she didn't wanna make any accommodations. So, I couldn't understand that. I understood authority cause of the nuns, but I don't know. I just--my mom never really followed the conventions. She was always a free spirit. So, in that way, we never had all the regimented things that you find in Mexico. Like my aunt died. Her sister died very young, and she would refuse to wear black. So, all her relatives criticized her. And then all my cousins were saying, “How come you're not wearing black?” So that was something that, you know, I was used to. But in the US there were some other things that some rigidity that I couldn't understand. Anyway, I was thirteen, you know, so that's not a good age to change cultures. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I was kind of, I was a kind of, well-developed thirteen, so the boys were starting to pay attention. But the boys in Mexico were eighteen, for example. You know, people are used to difference in age. And the boys in Michigan were thirteen and they were shorter than I was. And just little boys. So that was also kind of sad because I was beginning to develop, you know, interest in the opposite sex. Plus the schools, you know, they were clannish. So of course, I was not a popular person because I didn't, I didn't speak the language. And I don't, I'm not talking about English, I'm talking about the teenage language, you know. I didn't have a group that I could hang out with. So I was kind of a nerd because I liked math. Then people didn't know where to put me cause I was too nerdish. And then at the same time, I was kind of sophisticated. I was more adult than they were. So it was a difficult time, to find a place there. Visintainer: When do you feel you found your place? Clark: Where? Visintainer: Where, yeah. Where? When? Clark: Kind of in Oxford. Because the girls were really friendly to me. Even the popular girls liked me. And they did the did the best they could to include me in all their activities and all the things that they were doing. And I found a friend there. We're still friends. We still write each other. We used to visit each other, but she was, she was a professor at USC (University of Southern California) and then she moved. She was--her father was a professor also. And this girl was, you know, she was kind of my intellectual equal in a way. She read a lot. She introduced me to a lot of English writers, cause her father was an English professor. And we used to kind of joke, with kind of sophisticated weight. I was--I really thought it was funny that I wish I had some stuff that I wrote when I was that age, because I think we were pretty witty at the time. And so that made me feel good. And she used to buy all these novels at the drugstore, and she would take off the front covers so her mother wouldn't know that they were X-rated (laughs). So, you know, I mean it was a fun time to be with somebody who was my age and was really into that stuff. And so she moved to Massachusetts, unfortunately. So that hit me in the head, because I don't fly anymore. And I don't think she's flying very much either. We're both--I'm gonna be eighty next month, and she's gonna be eighty in December, so we're getting there. So— Visintainer: But you've kept in touch. Clark: Yeah. Yeah. And that was great because she ended up at USC. She started out in Illinois, and then went to Texas, and she ended up at USC. So when she--her husband was at San Diego State, so she was living in La Jolla for a while. And we had to see each other a lot. So we still do a Zoom conversation once in a while. So that was, she contributed a lot to that. And then I have another friend that I stay in touch with who lives in Alabama. But we still stay in touch and they're Democrats (laughs). And then I had another friend who passed away two years ago. So, those three friends were great, and we were close. And so I didn't feel lonely anymore. I didn't date anybody until I was almost a freshman in college. I just wasn't attractive to guys, to the--I wasn't a southern bell. So I wasn't appealing to guys because I didn't just go and bat my eyelashes at anybody. I didn't know how to flirt at the time. Visintainer: Well and you needed you needed to find your group. Clark: Right. Visintainer: Yeah. So then you, you go to Lawrence (Kansas) after you graduated? Clark: Yes. Just, you know, my dad told me--asked me when I was a senior in high school, “Where is it that you wanna get your PhD?” (Laughs) He didn't even ask me, “Are you gonna get a PhD?” No. He says, “Where is it that you're going for your PhD?” So I, I'm one of those people who takes the first offer I get. I didn't take the first offer for marriage that I got, but I did take the first offer for graduate school. I took the first offer for the first job, for my first job. And then, the Cal State San Marcos job was kind of a first offer in the sense that it was new place. So anyway, I just I applied to places and I liked the--as I said, I was in French, so I applied at the University of Kansas because they had a good French department. So I got, it really appealed to me that, to study French at KU. And then I ended up studying Spanish. So. Visintainer: And so you came to KU and then you met Jose. And, so how did you meet Jose? Clark: Well, his parents were my classmates. Visintainer: That's right. Clark: And there was a party--this is a weird story too. There was a party, some Venezuelans, they--KU has an amazing number of programs with Latin America. I mean, just, you wouldn't believe it. And they had a program, with a Ford Foundation program to bring Venezuelan engineers to Kansas. So, my mother-in-law was the secretary to this project. And they invited her to a big party. And so her husband, who was also my classmate, and he was kind of a, had a roving eye. He had a crush on my roommate. So, he invited both of us so he could get to dance with my roommate. And then he went to Jose and said, “Hey, you know, I'm really interested in this girl. Would you mind dancing with the roommate?” (laughs) Who was me, “So that I can dance with Judy.” And so, he came and asked me to dance. And so, I thought, “Oh, how great.” Cause he was very good looking. And we just hit it off and we danced all night at that party. And at five in the morning his parents invited me to go have cognac in their--at their apartment. So, you know, we just started to see each other. But he was nineteen, and he looked like he was younger. So I thought, I'm really robbing the cradle big time, so I better stop this. So, I asked him point blank, how old are you? Because by this time, we had seen each other a couple of times, and he said, nineteen. And I thought, whew, you know, he's not underage (laughs). And also, you know, this is okay, we're having fun. No big deal. But we realized, you know, it was a lot more serious than we thought. So, we met--that was the Thanksgiving weekend of 1966. And we got married in (19)67 in August the next year. So, we didn't have a very long courtship. And what really speared that forward was that he was living with his parents in this duplex. And his grandmother was getting out of Cuba. You know, they were, they were Cuban refugees from the Castro regime. So, grandma was getting out and she had to share his bedroom, Jose's bedroom. So, I said, well, we couldn't live together. The department was very conservative, and I would've lost my assistantship if we had moved in together. It sounds hard to believe that people think in those terms now, but they were very, very conservative. So, I thought I didn't wanna jeopardize my studies. And so, we said, “Well, what do we do? We break up or we get married, you know, either one.” And so, he was just starting his freshman year anyway, so I said, “Well, I think we ought to break up because this is not--it's not viable.” I was living in this little apartment and, anyway I was making $240 a month, and I wasn't gonna marry somebody who didn't have any income. And his parents were students also. Cause when you got out of Cuba, no matter how much money you have, you have to get out with the clothes on your back. And his mother was a journalist, but she had, who came from a wealthy family, but she had to go work in a donut shop in Miami when they first came, got out of Cuba. So we didn't have any money, none of us. So I said, “Well, you know I don't know if we should get married. This is too serious. It's too soon.” And then, so then he gives me his grandmother's wedding band, and he says, “I'm serious. I really wanna marry you.” So we decided, okay, let's go ahead. And we got married and he got a job working in the language lab. And in the--at the library. (laughs) So we were living on like, with $350 a month. But we were living okay, you know? We discovered, yeah, we can make it go. And my parents came around and they really liked him, and they ended up just loving him to death, you know? So that was, that was a good thing. Even though a lot of people talked to us and said, “Don't do it. It's too soon.” Including the guy who married us was his speech professor. And he said, “Well, I'm not gonna marry you guys until I talk to you quite a bit.” So we had to go to his house many times. So he would give us--he was a Methodist minister, as well as being a professor on campus. And he talked to us a lot. And finally he says, “Yeah, I think you're gonna do okay.” And so, he married us. We had a very plain, very simple wedding in his parents' duplex. We invited friends who were also graduate students. They brought food. It was kind of a potluck. And here we are, fifty-six years later. Visintainer: It was a good start then. Clark: Yeah. That's been, to me, that's been the best part of my life is, you know, having Jose next to me for fifty-six years. Most of our lives. Anyway, so that was KU. I got my PhD in Spanish in ‘71. Like everybody else, I had to apply to a million places for a job. And I had, San Bernardino sounded really good to me because it was in California. I had my best friend, my best friend at KU was teaching there already. She had gotten her PhD at Ohio State, and she'd gotten hired at San Bernardino. We could have been done the same time, but I just, I wasn't in any hurry because Jose was not, wasn't graduating until ‘71. Oh, sorry. (laughs) Visintainer: No, you're fine. Clark: Tell me if I'm giving you too much information. Visintainer: No, no, no. It's really interesting. I'm happy you're sharing and thank you for sharing. So, Jose was graduating in 1971, so you had some time to kind of figure out your next steps. Clark: Yes. We didn't know what he was gonna do. So, he applied to graduate schools and he got accepted at UC Irvine. So we were happily planning for that. at And of course, I had to stay in San Bernardino cause I've never been a good driver. So, he was gonna drive to Irvine to go to graduate school there. But he thought the drive was a little bit too long. And we weren't used to commuting and all that California life. So he applied at the library at Cal State San Bernardino. They had a temporary job, and it was perfect. He just loved it. So, he started working there. And that was ironic because there were a lot of jobs that I didn't take because--that I didn't pursue, because they were always asking me, “What's your husband gonna do? What's he gonna work at?” And so they would turn off because he didn't, he was--didn't have a job yet. And I was also childbearing age, and a lot of people didn't wanna hire you. I won't mention a couple of universities that I got approached by. And according to my professors, I had a really good chance to get--go there. But they were worried about Jose. So ironically, he started working where I worked. And then he got another job since that was only, that was temporary. The funds for that dried up. And so, the University of Redlands hired him. The library there. And he loved it. But I said, “No, you better get your degree because you can't be, just be a clerk all the time.” So he started going to USC and very slowly, and finally I said, “No, you just quit whatever you're doing and finish your degree, because that's the only way you're gonna have a career out of being a librarian.” And at sure enough, it worked out so well because he's loved that career. And it's kept us on an even keel, always. Because my career sometimes was high pressure ‘cause I did some administrative work along the way. And so he, it was always good to have him in this job that he loved. And that wasn't super high pressure until he got in the county. And then that turned out to be very high pressure because he was--he became a supervisor. And that's, you know, anytime you go into administration, that's it for you because you start leaving the job that you love and doing a job that pays better, but gives you a little more prestige. But-- (laughs). Visintainer: Yep. It's very true. Well, as at a librarian, I'm very happy that Jose was able to find his avocation in our vocation. Clark: I know. And it's, you know, librarian is such an interesting, has such an interesting opportunity to do all kinds of different things. So that he's found that, and he's always worked with women really well, you know, because so many women are in the library. And I work with men really well. So, we compliment each other because we're not jealous people who think, “Oh, you're gonna be with this person.” You know, I just always hung out with guys in my profession. And he's always gotten along with women and met--made really good friends in both areas. Visintainer: Yeah. And to circle back a little bit to coming to CSU San Bernardino, you mentioned at that you had wanted to go to California, and I was curious as to what was the draw for California as opposed to other parts of the United States? Clark: Well, California has always had really good press, maybe until now that the states are so divided. But it always, it was always like paradise, if you wanna go to paradise in the US, go to California. And they show you all these orange groves and this beautiful weather and the ocean. And it was just, it just has a good ethos, you know? So I always really wanted to go to California. My parents ended up in Florida. I never had any desire to go to Florida, and for any, every reason in the world. But somehow California just seemed like this paradise. And also, you know, LA. Wow. San Francisco. (laughs) My dad lived in San Francisco many years, and he was always talking about San at Francisco being such a great place. And then LA with Hollywood and, you know, just sounded like--plus the proximity to Mexico. You know, I always kept thinking, “Well, if I'm in California, I can always cross the border.” You know, I always felt kind of uneasy when I felt--when I lived really far from the border. Which is ironic because now I never get down there (laughs) you know, just. But I did find some relatives who live in Tijuana, so that's been great. You know, they come to visit. And, it's really good to keep track of my family that way. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: I found them on Facebook of all places (laughs). Visintainer: So Facebook has some, has some good things about it. Clark: Yeah. (laughs) Visintainer: You can connect people. So you came to, so what was the decision to leave CSU San Bernardino at and come to San Marcos? Clark: Well, when I was about three or four years before I left there, I discovered that I'd like to be an administrator. Because the Dean of Humanities left, and he asked me if I would be his replacement. So even though it was a really hard job, because he didn't look after any budgets. I mean, he was just so, he was a wild, loose, kind of a loose cannon. And I had to go, and as one colleague told me, I had to go shovel a lot of cages at the zoo when I took over that job. But I loved that job. So, it was an interim job. I had it for two years, and then I, when I applied for the permanent job, I didn't get it. at So, I thought, “Well I, but I wanna do this.” So I started applying different places for dean's jobs. And I got, I did pretty well in the market, but it just wasn't appealing to me to go for several reasons. I had been in San Bernardino for nineteen years. I was used to the good weather. And so this, the Cal State San Marcos thing came up and he said, “You know, you start the, a program from scratch. Start the department from scratch.” And so I talked to people about it, and they, I said, “What do you do?” And says, “Oh, you can hire the kind of people that you want. You can go after the kind of faculty that you want. You can create the kind of curriculum that you want that you find is good. You can do a lot of stuff. It's, it's a huge opportunity.” So, I applied at for it, and sure enough, I got the job. So it was--I moved kind of laterally because I had tenure there. I was a full professor. But I had no idea of all the horrendous amount of work that you have to do when you start a program. And, I probably wouldn't do it again. And my dad had done that in Florida, and he said, “Oh, be careful, because it's so much work.” And I just, you know, I just went in there thinking, “Well, how bad can it be?” And it was pretty bad (laughs) because I had to work year-round. And it was one thing after the other. I'll give you an example. Marion Ried (Dean of the University Library) came up to at me and she was in charge of some funds that were assigned to the university. I don't know why they put her in charge of that. But anyway, she says, “You know, there's $150,000 earmarked for a language lab, and if you don't spend it,” this is in April when she talked to me, “If you don't spend it by the end of June, Bill Stacy's gonna take it.” He was the (university) president. “He's gonna just take it and spend it on something else because it’s gonna become available to the whole campus.” And I said, “We can't have a language department without a language lab. No way.” So, I had to go buy a language lab, and I had from April to end of June to do that. Well, how do you do that? Visintainer: Yeah, where did you begin? Clark: Yeah. I was lucky enough that the San Bernardino campus had redone its language lab, and they had formed a committee and they had, you know, interviewed different lab companies. And they had decided what kind of lab they wanted. And they already had the infrastructure though. And I had to start from zero. So I went to talk to the guy who ran that lab. Fortunately, he was somebody that I had supervised, and he just loved me. So he gave me all kinds of information and all kinds of help about what some of the pitfalls would be. And I picked that lab that, it was a Norwegian company, something like that. Norwegian, I think Norwegian. And I had to come up with a sole-source justification in just a little bit of time, because there was another company that was saying, “Why didn't you pick us? Why didn't you buy our lab?” And then I was lucky because I got two faculty who came, and they were very versed on the--they came from UC Irvine, and they had learned how the lab can be used as a teaching tool. And it was, you know, they had done workshops and they had done all kinds of stuff. And that's one of the reasons that I picked them to come be our next faculty. Because they had learned so much about what a language lab does other than just be an aide. Electronic aid, you know, technology aid. And it was a married couple. They both came together. And so she was the, she was doing all the all the software kind of stuff, and he was doing all the hardware kind of stuff. So, I was lucky that way that I--but I also see that as part of a, you know, being hired with experience. Because if I had been hired out of graduate school, I wouldn't have been able to do anything like that. And so, because I came with having chaired the department, having been a dean, and when you're Dean of Humanities, you deal with a lot of equipment. Because I had the arts under my supervision. And I had to deal with lots of interesting types of equipment. So it worked out. But it was a very tough two years. I was in, at one point, I was in like thirty-five hiring committees. Visintainer: Wow! Clark: And one of those committees was for literature, the literature department, which was called English at the time. We had eight hundred applicants for one position. Visintainer: Wow. Clark: So, you had to learn how to, you know, how to process stuff very quickly. And so, and also I had learned how to deal with administrators, higher administrators, to negotiate for things. So I was a little bit more informed as to how to deal with things. Because a lot of the faculty don't, they don't deal with anybody. They just go on, they do their great teaching and they do their research, but they don't they're not used to wheeling and dealing, for example. And so I learned very quickly that the first best, the people who got the best things, were wheelers and dealers in the faculty. I learned from some of my colleagues very well because you don't just get things by saying, “Yes, I accept the job. I'll be there this day. When do I start working?” You have to say, you know, “What, how much office space am I gonna get (laughs)? How much--what is gonna be my budget for traveling and for hiring? And how many faculty am I gonna have in five years? When you had to start that kind of thing. And in a way, I was not that good when I first came, but I learned very quickly. Very, very quickly you learned that. So that's what brought me to San Marcos wasn't the weather like a lot of people (laughs). It was the opportunity of starting a new department. And that was really interesting. But ironically, my ideal colleague--I was able to hire this guy. He was just wonderful. But he hated California. He couldn't, he couldn't live away from his mom. And so he left after two years. But I did get some of the other faculty that I think are ideal and wonderful. They're still here. Visintainer: That's good. So what was your vision when you started the department? Clark: Well, I wanted to, I wanted to have a major that would give the students the opportunity to go in different directions and to get lots of skills without having to, you know, because a lot of the majors are very academic. And I love the--I love that, but it doesn't give them many tools like to be teachers or to be like, go to work in business. And so I wanted to major that would be, that would help students be very versatile. And they could go in lots of different fields. And I think I accomplished that. Our major was, there were only two of us working on the major at the beginning, and it got accepted by the chancellor's office on the first meeting, you know. Because we came up with this modular plan, and also just wanted to hire a lot of faculty that I would love to work with. That was my vision as the harmonious department, because if people don't get along--and I came from a lot of programs where people didn't get along at all. Visintainer: That's really interesting. Cause yeah., cause there's a lot of at times disharmony in academia. Clark: Oh yeah! Visintainer: And in some ways, you know, for a good reason because there's a lot of debate and thought that has to go into things. But— Clark: I mean, a department is made up of a whole bunch of prima donnas. Visintainer: Yeah. (laughs) So how did you go about building harmony in a department, in your department? Clark: I don't know. I can't tell you exactly. You just have a feel for people. And I was, I just use my instincts a lot. And so I try to get people to apply that I knew were very easy to work with, that love to work with you, that no matter what you ask of them, they would do it. But the guy who came with me, the first guy, we went too far because he never said no to anybody. And at some point he burned out. But he was good to work with. I mean, he was good to be here the first two years. Unfortunately, he passed away not too long ago. But, anyway he--so I just, I just had a feeling that people who were my friends, besides being my colleagues. And I knew a lot of people, you know. I had--they applied a lot of people from different areas applied here because I went, I worked a long time for grading the Advanced Placement (AP) exam. So, I had a huge network because those, you meet people every year, and you get to know each other. And so that's what it was, just, you know--and then what my big goal was always to help people thrive. And not put any obstacles in their development. And one of my professors at KU said, because I, my dissertation was kind of weird. And then I said, “You know, I'm surprised that, that you approved it, because I know that it is very unconventional approach to literature.” And he said, “Look, to me, your dissertation is your beginning work. If I'm gonna consider that your master work, then you're in trouble. Because this is what's gonna kick you into the field and into the academic world.” And I did have a professor who didn't wanna approve it, and these guys kind of rallied. And they said, “We couldn't, you couldn't take it out of the building to read it.” And so, he refused to go to read it in the building. Visintainer: What, so what--what was weird about your dissertation? Clark: Well, it was a very like a very close reading of some works. Very, very close. I was using a method that was kind of controversial at the time. It was called the--what is it called? My head is not working anymore. But anyway, you, if you read a work very closely, you analyze, you know like even stylistic patterns in something. You can kind of make conclusions that are much broader about the work then you can if you approach it from the outside and just look at the--look at it from a bird's eye view. Like if you read something and you say, the plot is this and the blah, blah, blah. But if you’re really close, read closely and about all the language used in it and everything. And some people at the time didn't like that method. It was an, it was a method followed by some English writers, American writers. It was an American thing. But I applied it to Mexican literature. So, a lot of people thought that was, it was stupid that it didn't lead you anywhere. And this writer that I went--that I wrote on, had been written on by a lot of people. And so this guy who didn't wanna pass me said, “Where's the, where's the biography of this writer? Where's the list of the his works? You don't learn anything about the guy.” I said, “No, no, no. I don't wanna learn about the guy. I wanna learn about the worlds he's creating in his works. You know, what kind of world is he creating with the use of this language?” And so it was--you know, some people thought it was too weird or maybe it didn't go far enough out. You know, it was not a universal thing. But it was, I was kind of following a method by an anthropologist (Claude) Lévi-Strauss, you know. Have you heard of Lévi-Strauss? Visintainer: I have not. Clark: Anyway, he studied people by patterns of--I'm losing my train of thought here. He studied people by the patterns in their culture, not coming from you know, the outside and saying, “Oh, they do this, they eat at this time.” But it's following very, very specific things that they did. Anyway. So it worked for me and, and I learned a lot about analyzing literature. And so that helped me in my teaching. So, whereas this guy, the professor who didn't wanna pass me, pass my dissertation. Well he--I had a course from him and he ordered ten books. It was gonna, it was Romanticism in Spain, okay. Romanticism in literature in Spain. And he started with the eighteenth century before Romanticism. And he gave us so much stuff about the eighteenth century, he never got to Romanticism. So I returned all the books without reading them because he never got to the subject. And so that's, I wanted to avoid that at all costs. I said, “I wanna read the works, I wanna see what the work is itself, and I don't care if the author was, you know, if he was gay, if he was an idiot, I don't care. I wanna see what he left behind.” So it was very close text reading, textual reading. And some people didn't appreciate that. So. But it served me well. Lemme tell you, I use that method throughout my career and it really helped. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I'm still reading like that. I don't read as much anymore, but I'm still kind of, “Oh look, this word he uses here.” Anyway, any more questions? Visintainer: Yeah. Could we circle back to the kind of the founding of the department? Clark: Yes. Visintainer: And I was just curious, what do you think was your, like your biggest challenge in those early years in founding the department, and coming on board at CSUSM? Clark: Oh, I don't wanna say. Visintainer: (Laughs) Well, you don't have, you don't have to answer if you don't want to. Clark: No, no. Because, because this campus developed very--I came from a very organized campus. And most people didn’t wanna realize that this was a CSU campus. They thought they were gonna create something from scratch that was brand new. And there are all these people who came from these different backgrounds, like faculty who came from liberal stu--liberal arts colleges, from big research universities. And I said, “This is a Cal State, people. We, that doesn't mean we have to look down on anybody, but it's, we have to be real about who the students are gonna be, and then what they need to learn.” So, ‘cause I've always been kind of an elitist in my, in my own mind, but not when it comes to educating students. I think, you know, you really need to consider the fact that people come from backgrounds that maybe aren't, they're not up to here academically, but they're very bright people. So just look at them, look at their interests, look at their--what they wanna learn. And I always love the Cal States because people pay for their own education. People pay for their, you know, they’re often the first person in their family to go to college. They work forty hours a week to go to college. They have children, they have other interests. They have jobs, they have parents. If you come from a Latino family, you know, you have to take care of your parents. They have husbands who don't want them to study. There's machismo there. You know, a big, big obstacle for Latina women. Anyway, just look at the students that we get, and don't look down on them. Look at what the possibilities are with these people because they're, they wanna learn. They're here because they want to be, not because, you know like when my last class at KU was on Friday, it would meet Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays at four o'clock in the afternoon. And sometimes on a Friday, I wouldn't have anybody showing up. Even though they knew that it counted, that I took off for absences. They just didn't care, you know, because they were gonna go into daddy's business, or they were gonna go into their uncle’s (business), you know, these people who they just weren't interested. And so, I said, that's what I love about the Cal State, is it has such a mission of, like now it's right in line with us because of the upward mobility. Because I was lucky that I didn't have to think about that, ‘cause I had parents who were educated. I always had books in my house. I always had. But these people who are, they've never seen a book in their house. They don't even get a magazine. And all of a sudden they have to, they have all these things thrown at them, but they wanna learn. So, I always had a lot of respect for the Cal State system for that reason. And a lot of my colleagues just, it makes me sad that they think the students are not up to par, blah, blah, blah. But it's, I've always loved the state universities because they want to educate the masses. And I love, I love for the masses to learn! And I like to be in the trenches. So that was why I didn't wanna leave the system. At the same time, you know, I yearned for these people who, like my friend, the USC friend, she’s taught--she's had years when she taught five or six student graduate students. And that's her whole teaching load. Where my advisor who had a chair at KU and he could just go. He went through South America traveling one year and left us in his house, to house sit for them. And, just visiting different universities and different libraries and doing research all over the place for his book. And he didn't have to teach a single class in two years. So I yearn for that, but at the same time, I like the idea of seeing people. And I still have people who, you know, look me up. Visintainer: That's impact. Clark: My students have retired already. Some of my students, my first students from San Bernardino. Yeah this one woman, she tracked me down here, and every year she and her husband come to visit us for when they come on vacation. And she's a retired teacher already. So it's, you know, it's very sad how some people don't care. Once the students leave, that's it. Visintainer: Yeah. I think there's definitely an ethos that comes from--that comes from being at a teaching university and embracing it and— Clark: Right. Visintainer: Great things that it can do for social mobility and upward mobility. And I appreciated you mentioning and talking about our students. And that kind of had me spur a question that I wanted to ask you. And was, what do you think was the big takeaway that you've learned from our students over the years? Clark: That they want, they want to learn and that they want to prosper. And very often their circumstances do not allow them to prosper, and do not allow them to learn. Many, many people I had to--I had a husband one time coming from a student who was in a couple of my classes, and he said, “I wanna come and sit in your classes cause I wanna watch my wife and make sure she doesn't talk to any guys.” I said, “No, you're not welcome there, because you're not a student and you're there for the wrong reasons.” So, I was worried that she was gonna get the brunt of that, but she eventually left that guy. But he would sabotage her learning. And I think, you know, and she kept going. She kept going. And I had another one here on this campus who, she was regularly beaten by her husband because she wasn't--she didn't have the food cooked when she, you know, she was in class and she didn't have the meal prepared. And so she's--but she went ahead and got her master's degree somehow. And I think the students are very resilient and they work very hard to make it. They don't, of course there are a lot of deadbeats too, but that doesn't--they're everywhere. But the majority of the students, I mean, I ask in class, I never had to work as a waitress or anything like that, you know. And I asked in my class one time, “What, how many of you're working?” And I would say, I would calculate like eighty percent raised their hands. And I said, “How many of you work more than twenty hours a week?” And most of them raise their hands again. Whereas, you know, I got to work in the language lab, I got--but that was for my extras. You know, my dad said, “If you want this and that, if you wanna buy records or if you wanna buy this.” But we didn't have to go to work. And we had a home that supported doing homework. And my mom wasn't around completely. But anyway. It was good. I had a good upbringing in that sense, and I wanted the students to get help that way. So I did a few things that weren't, didn't mean very much but for example, when I went to Mexico City you can buy books. Like you can buy literature in the newsstands for like fifty cents a book or something. So, I would buy if I knew I was gonna use the book in my class, if you order it from, well now Amazon, but if you order it from a bookstore, they'd have to pay like ten dollars for that book. And I would buy all these books for fifty cents and then bring them back and say, “If you can't afford the books, come and see me.” So, they would come, sometimes very ashamed. But I said, “Don't be, don't be embarrassed. Just, you know, just come and see me.” And I’d say, “Okay, you can use this book. Use it in the class. If you really like it and you wanna keep it for your library, you can keep it. If you don't wanna keep it, just give it back to me.” And they would always keep it, because they were building a library. That was so cool. And then all my books, when my mother died, all her books came to me. And there were duplicates of a lot of stuff I had. So I took them to the office and I said to the graduate students, “Take anything you want.” And now we're, fortunately we get to leave things to the campus. We're fortunate that we're--we decided to leave our estate to the campus. Because we want to, we want students to prosper in any way they can. And sometimes it's just a question of a thousand dollars that's gonna put them over the edge. I wish we had millions, but we don't. So. Visintainer: Well that's, that's wonderful to be able to leave something to foster student success in the future. Clark: Yeah. Because I have a family, but they can look after themselves, they've had good opportunities. And, we don't have kids. So we're not responsible for anybody in particular. So, I don't wanna make, I don't wanna tire you because I've been talking so much about myself (laughs). Visintainer: No, no, you're fine. Well, we can, we can certainly look towards wrapping things up. I've enjoyed talking with you. I did wanna--I did want to ask you kind of a wrap up question. Is that, is there anything that you wish I would've asked you that I didn't? Clark: Not really. I think, I can just go ahead and talk forever about all this. It's an eighty-year-old life, so eighty years of being on this earth, that's a long time. And so there’s things that I don't remember at all. And the things that I remember so vividly, and when I went to see Roma (2018 film), I just cried throughout the whole movie. Bought it on Netflix, but I just--I cried and cried, and cried the whole movie. Because he captures that neighborhood so well. And he, there's a documentary that where he explains how he captured that neighborhood. And he was really meticulous about every single thing, like those little soldiers at parade every morning. I mean, there were details like that, that I've never seen in a movie before. And also because Mexico City always looks like a, this gray place with dirt, dirt streets and everything. And here's this guy who is just--captures the neighborhood that I grew up in. I mean, what are the chances? Because most people show you the tourist view of Mexico City. And so that's what, that's what I miss. It's like the daily noises, and the daily routines, and the kind of house that it is and the maid. Very sad because we did have a couple of maids, like the--like this girl, they would come and knock on your door and say they were there from Oaxaca and did you have any, did you have any work for them? And my mother took, did take a couple of people like that. We didn't have any money at the time, but anyway, she did take a couple of these girls. And they didn't even speak Spanish, these poor girls. So that just--that really got me, that movie. And so I always tell people, if you wanna get to know me, watch that movie. But I don't, I'm not the maid. I'm the, I'm the person from the señora, you know? Because the grandma didn't even know her name. And then I kept thinking, I didn't know any of these girl's names. I didn't know where they came from. And when she has a baby, and they take her to the hospital, says, “What's her name?” And she doesn't even know her name. Because there's, it's another world that I never got to know. And I used to think, “Oh, Oaxaca, that has to be the scum of the earth.” And, and I fell in love with Oaxaca the first time I went there. It kind of shows you that you don't, you never appreciate your own world until you're out of it. Visintainer: Yeah I, you know, as somebody who did not grow up in Roma but I saw the movie, I thought it was an amazing, just an amazing creation of space. And I didn't know if it was you know, how particularly accurate it was or not. So, it's nice to hear that it really spoke to you on an emotional and memory level. Clark: Yeah. There, this little scene, there's a scene when the guy leaves her (Cleodegaria "Cleo" Gutiérrez, main character of Roma), she says she's pregnant and the guy leaves her, and she's sitting on the steps of this movie theater. And there are all these noises because people go outside of the movie theater, they're selling a lot of stuff. Little toys and everything. And she's just surrounded by all these noises and she's just sitting there in her loneliness, you know? And here's the interesting cultural thing is that nobody goes to the movies on Sundays, except the maids and their boyfriends and, you know, the domestic help. That's when they go to the movies, and they go see Mexican movies. The middle class goes to see the American movies first run, you know. And they go during the week or on the week--on Saturday, but not on Sunday afternoon, belongs to the servants. So it's an upstairs/downstairs world that most people don't realize. And, so it's kind of hard to also to explain that to people that, you may not have anything in common who is from Mexico. There are people from Mexico that I have absolutely nothing in common with. Cause they were brought up--we had a cleaning lady, and she would not, she invited us to her house on her birthday. She would not sit down with us to eat, even though it was her birthday. And I knew. I understood it. And I, we didn't insist on anything, because she would not sit down with us to eat. So that's--it's a different world that is very hard to explain to people. And, so that's another challenge for me that I live in two worlds in my head. I've got one foot here and one foot there and they never come together. Visintainer: And I think that that's probably an experience for folks that move from country to country or even within countries. Clark: Exiles. Yeah. People who have grown up somewhere else. And, who was I talking to about that the other day? It was very interesting because we were saying because I--oh, I have a lot of, most of my friends are really from someplace else (laughs). Even though, not on purpose, they're faculty on campus. But, I was looking at my, one of my Zumba classes. There was nobody born in the US in that Zumba class. I don't know. I kept seeing, maybe there was one person. But there was a woman from Colombia, there was a woman from Japan, another one from Puerto Rico. Well, Puerto Rico's US, but they have another culture. And so it was just so strange that we're exiles and we do have a common denominator, but that never reaches you the most in the deepest way. You always have, you always have this farness. Visintainer: And I, yes. I wanted to share that I lived in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas- Clark: Oh, you did? Visintainer: And, yeah. And when I was there, you know, I had somebody tell me what they thought of the Valley, and I thought it was really interesting in that that he said, “It's a liminal place. It's a place that's not quite Texas, it's not quite Mexico.” It exists in its own way and with its own rules and its own identity. And that causes, in some ways, for folks that live in the Rio Grande Valley, that sense of displacement when they’re in other places because they don't feel quite--and I'm speaking in generalities but, you know, there's a feeling of not quite being Texas, not quite being the US, not quite being Mexico all wrapped into its own place and culture. That was really interesting. And, and I really— Clark: Yeah, I really wanna visit with you sometime and hear more about you, so. Visintainer: Yeah. Well, we can get together and chat, but this is not about me, and I just went on a tangent. I apologize. (laughs) Clark: I know, I know. No. No, but it's good. It's good. So well, thank you for the interview and I hope I didn't leave anything major out. But if I did, give me a call or send me an email because, you know how I'm always willing to talk about myself. (laughs) Visintainer: Sure, sure. Well I really appreciate you chatting with me today, Stella. And I'm gonna pause recording and then, and then we can wrap up with anything else. Clark: Okay. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with CSUSM. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ClarkStella_VisintainerSean_2023-08-09.xml ClarkStella_VisintainerSean_2023-08-09.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clark, Stella. Interview August 9, 2023. Description An account of the resource Dr. Stella Clark grew up in Colonia Roma, Mexico City, and moved to the U.S. in her early childhood. She grew up in a family who valued education; both her parents received a PhD and she was expected to get one as well. Clark received her bachelor's degree in French and her master's and PhD degrees in Spanish. She began her professional career at California State University, San Bernardino and eventually applied to California State University San Marcos, where she founded the Modern Languages Department and created the university's language lab. In her interview, Clark discusses how she made an impact not only on her students learning but life as well by encouraging all to pursue their academic dreams, and on the struggles that working students and women students face in getting an education. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-46 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Bernadino California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Modern Language Studies Department Education, Higher Immigrants -- United States Kansas University Mexican Americans -- California -- San Diego County Mexican Americans -- Education (Higher) Mexicans -- United States Roma (Motion picture : 2018) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-08-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stella Clark Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colonia Roma (Mexico City, Mexico) East Lansing (Mich.) Lawrence (Kan.) Oxford (Miss.) San Bernadino (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Stella Clark CSUSM history Immigrant experience Latine experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6ff9cd68c278df4403b4ebdf2c7d2a87.pdf 92b750fac8d50ff76fff1e7642bb1fb5 PDF Text Text STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: All right. Thank you, Stella. This is Sean Visintainer, head of Special Collections at California State University San Marcos. Today I'm interviewing Dr. Stella Clark for our University Archives oral history collection. The date is August 9th, 2023, and this recording is happening on Zoom. Dr. Clark, thank you so much for interviewing with us today. Clark: I'm happy to be here answering your questions and having a chat with you. Visintainer: Yes. So we're really happy that you could join me for this interview as well. And so I wanted to start off talking about your childhood. And I understand you're originally from Mexico? Clark: I am. Visintainer: Where from, where in Mexico are you from? Clark: Well, I was born someplace else, but I should say that I was brought up in Mexico City. So, it's actually a big city. From the time that I was born, I was taken there. So it's not, you know, I mean it's--I didn't really change my life that much. Because actually Mexico City was a lot more advanced than where I went to live here in the United States. Because it was a city of five million. And I went to live in a town that had maybe twenty thousand? So, my dad was a college professor and he moved the whole family in the fifties. And I came along with the family. And my first experience in the United States was when I was in the eighth grade, in East Lansing, Michigan. So, it was quite a culture shock for me. Not because of Mexico to the US but because of the big city to the small town. And then we ended up living in Mississippi for most of, most of my high school years and my college years. So I ended, I started with the Midwest and then ended up in the South. And that is the deep south, Oxford, Mississippi. That's where I went to high school. And I went to college there. Visintainer: Okay. Clark: So that was a big culture shock, not because of the US thing, but because I came from the Midwest where I was getting kind of adjusted to US life in a small town to the big, to a smaller town in the south. And there was segregation at the time. So, of course I went to the white high school. Just because of the way I look. They never, they didn't think in the South, you're either black or you're white. At least at the time. They didn't go into any refinements of, you know, mestizo or mixed race or anything like that. So I ended up going to a white high school, and then I went to Ole Miss, the University of Mississippi. That's where I got my first degree. And then I ended up again in the Midwest, ‘cause I went to the University of Kansas for my graduate studies. And that's where another culture shock, because going from the deep South to the real--to the corn belt, you know? That was very conservative very, kind of a dull place to be, except that Lawrence, Kansas was a wonderful, wonderful town. And I got my degrees from the University of Kansas, both degrees, the MA and the PhD. And I met my husband there. And that was another culture shock because he's Cuban. And he was, you know, brought up very Cuban, even though he had lived in the US quite a bit. And so, we got married in 1967, so we just celebrated our fifty-sixth anniversary. Visintainer: Congratulations. Clark: Thank you. Yeah. We--our wedding date was August fifth, so we just celebrated it by doing nothing. (laughter) Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: That's how we just celebrated ours as well. Clark: Oh, congratulations to you. (Visintainer laughs) Visintainer: Thank you. Clark: So anyway, it was a, it was a very pleasant time at the University of Kansas. And then my whole-my dream was always to come to California. So, when I was--I started looking for a job. I applied to a lot of places in California and I sent like five hundred letters, something like that. And then my first job, fulltime faculty job was at Cal State San Bernardino. And I ended up staying there for nineteen years. So that was a whole early career, was at Cal State San Bernardino. Do you have any questions so far? Visintainer: I do. I actually wanted to circle back to Mexico. Clark: Okay. Visintainer: What neighborhood in Mexico City where you from? Clark: Colonia Roma. Visintainer: Okay. Okay. Clark: Have you seen the movie? Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. I saw Roma. And I've been there myself. It's a beautiful area. Clark: I lived there. I lived about five blocks from where that movie was shot. Visintainer: Okay. And that movie took place, when was that movie? It was the sixties, or? Clark: That was in the seventies. Visintainer: In the seventies. Clark: He (director Alfonso Cuarón) had to change a lot of things. He even had to do the (building) facades, but there are a lot of places that are the same as they were when I was a kid there in that neighborhood. And it was, it was a good place to live. My mother owned two townhouses there in Roma. So that's where I spent most of my childhood. But then she sold the houses when we moved to the US, for $5,000 each. And now, I think that would be in the millions. Visintainer: Yeah. Probably. Clark: It's a desirable neighborhood. Visintainer: Yes. Yeah. Definitely. What were--so why did your parents decide to emigrate? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Clark: Well, my dad was a college professor, and college professors don't work out in Mexico very well ‘cause they have to have other careers. They don't pay that much at the university, so they have to have a second career that, like a day job, you know? And so, and my dad was German. That's a long history. I don't, I don't even want to get into that because it's really complicated and interesting. But so he, you know, he married my mother and they decided that they, he wanted to get his PhD in Texas. At the University of Texas. So he went, came to the US to get his PhD and left the family behind. But he started taking us one by one. First he took my mom, then my little brother who was very young. And the whole time we were staying with relatives, so. Anyway, so we ended up finally the whole family in the US in 1956. The whole family in Lansing, Michigan. But we came piecemeal. So it was, you know, staying with aunts and uncles. And living in different areas where I was sort of the, I wasn't really in my, with my family. So we were kind of aimless. Because, you know, since I was with so many different relatives, but my dad had a purpose. And so, he said, when he brought the whole family, he was gonna create a goal for us. And we all ended up studying, you know, higher, getting higher degrees. Having careers. And so, because of my dad. He also made my mother get a PhD. So, we all got degrees at the University of Mississippi first. Visintainer: Okay. And what were your parents' PhDs in? Clark: My mom was in Spanish, like me, and my dad was in economics. He actually turned out to be a pretty well-known professor in the, in Latin American economics. And he was very productive, being a good German. He wrote a lot of books. And he ended up at the University of West Florida. That was his last job. So at the time, professors were not used to staying in one place. They were used to going from job to job to improve their status. And so, he was an assistant professor at Michigan State, and then Mississippi hired him as a full professor. So he jumped a rank, so to speak. And then you know, I always miss Mexico. Even now I miss Mexico. I don't go back very much. But to me, that's just home, you know, or something. I never could get, could develop a love like I have in my heart for Mexico, for any other places where I've lived. Visintainer: What is-Clark: Yes? Visintainer: Oh, I'm sorry to interrupt. What is it that you, what is it that you miss or that has that, that fills that place in your heart when you think of Mexico? Clark: It's hard to describe because when I get together with relatives from down there, I'm immediately at home. You know, it's as if I had never left. And I grew up with a cousin who was my age, and I just hated to leave her so much. She, we were best friends and I always wanted to see her. And I wasn't always able to go back there. And so, you know, I really missed her so much. And just the family relations, the--also Mexico City was so urbane. I always felt like I was kind of in the sticks in the towns that we lived in, in the US. And I would go to Mexico and my cousin was all, you know, she has this hairdo, and I'd say, “What is that?” I've never seen anything like it. Because it was a big city. So you live, it was kind of like being in New York, you know, like a New Yorker living in New York. So, I miss that aspect of it. But I just, I didn't even like Mexican things, you know like Mexican, so-called Mexican food. I never really liked it that much, but as soon as I moved to the US I just, I was missing tortillas. We had to get tortillas--in Michigan, we had to get tortillas in the can. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 3 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: Okay. Clark: And there was no place to go eat anything that was typical. And in my middle school, nobody! Nobody, but nobody spoke Spanish. Not even high school Spanish or anything. So nobody tried to help me out as I was developing. So I was getting used to living there. And I remember that this, the gym class made us, they made us take a shower. And I did not wanna take my clothes off in front of people I did know. Even though they were young girls, but they were strangers. So I did not wanna take my clothes off. So I went to the teacher, tried in my best bad English, tried to explain to her that I didn't wanna take my clothes off in front of my classmates. And she said, “That's too bad. You gotta take a shower. So, you can't just be in gym and then be all sweaty and go back to class.” So I would leave my, my bra and my panties on, and then I would have to go the rest of the day with wet underwear. So, that was just a really bad year for me. (laughs) Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I told my mom, and she finally, you know, I didn't wanna tell my mom I was embarrassed. Finally, she went to talk to the teacher, but she said, “No, no, she has to adjust to the,” you know, it's that mentality that, “No, no, no, she has to adjust.” You know, “Everybody's the same here.” So I had wet underwear the whole year. And in Michigan, that's not pleasant when it's winter. Visintainer: No, that sounds like it would be tough. Clark: Anyway, so that was, and I made friends in Michigan, but I don't know, it wasn't the same. It wasn't my cousins. It wasn't my, you know, I wasn't in the same school as my brother and sister, so that was a bad year for me. And then when we moved to Mississippi everything changed. It was, because Mississippi, believe it or not, the the ethos is more like Mexico (laughs) Because of the stratification, the social stratification. That you were kind of more with middle class people or whatever. And so, I don't know. I hate to say it, because it sounds, you know, I don't wanna admit to anything like that. So anyway, but Oxford was a small town, but it was very friendly, and it was very, they were very welcoming to us. So, everything changed. And that's when I finally started to adjust to living in the US. The people were real characters. Our English teacher in the high school was married to Faulkner's, William Faulkner's best friend. So she was, she was such a character. She would say, “Don't let the lighting bug bite you because you'll never get rid of it.” (laughter) So anyway, so it was, it was a different world. And I finally got used to living there, and I started to miss Mexico a little bit less and less every year. Visintainer: You mentioned that you were learning English when you came to the US if I understood correctly. So-Clark: Yes. I knew a lot of English already, because I had English from the time I was in kindergarten until the eighth grade when I came to the US. So-Visintainer: So you were learning English and kind of in class, I assume, as well as being immersed in the English language. I was curious about your Spanish-language skills. Did you speak Spanish in the home? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 4 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Clark: Of course. And I never forgot Spanish because I'm a reader, and I just always wanted to keep reading. We--my mother and I went to the library at Michigan State, and we checked out, you know, they had a big collection in Spanish of course. And so I checked out these Argentinian novels, and Colombian novels and everything. So I was always reading something that kept my skills up. I didn't do it on purpose, but I really wanted to stay, keep my Spanish so that when I went back to Mexico, people wouldn't make fun of me. Because they, you know, they said your English, your Spanish starts to get very what they call pocho. Which is, it has a lot of English influence. And I didn't wanna be called pocha. So I kept my Spanish skills as long as I could. And then I majored in French at Ole Miss. I was gonna major in math, but a woman professor who taught third semester calculus said to me, “I know why you're here. You're just looking for a husband.” And she just persecuted me in the class. So I said, “No, who needs this? I don't wanna be in this world.” So I switched to French, and I majored in French. And, and then that's another story, because when I went to--when I applied at KU for graduate school, I was supposed to go in the French department to get my PhD in French. But the department had split that year. It was a romance language department, and it split from Spanish and Portuguese into Spanish and Portuguese and French and Italian. So, they said, “Okay, you go here.” And all of a sudden you had to take all these Spanish classes. And I thought, well, I wonder why, but I'll, I'll take them. And I had taken more classes. They, I got a letter that says, you have to take more Spanish classes. And when I, when I was at Ole Miss, so I took more Spanish classes and I kept taking Spanish lit(erature) of different fields. And when I got there and I went to the advisor, he was the chair of the Spanish and Portuguese department, and he said, “You're gonna be teaching Spanish I as a TA (teacher’s assistant), and then you're gonna take these three Spanish classes.” (laughs) So I said, “Well, okay.” (laughter) I didn't, I was twenty you know, what did I know? So, I started taking Spanish classes. And it's a good thing because at the time, French was beginning to decline in demand, and I could never get used to speaking French either. I didn't like to, to say, oh. (laughs) I couldn't, you know, I just couldn't get used to the, the accent. So, I just stayed in Spanish. And that's what since you ask about my skills, they came in handy because I had read a lot of the works already as a kid, and I liked the people in the Spanish department. And that's where I stayed. Visintainer: Yeah, thank you. And I was, I was curious as to, because you went, you ended up, you know, getting your PhD in Spanish, how you kept those skills up being in an environment where outside of your home you didn't necessarily have the opportunity (Visintainer and Clark speaking over each other). Yes. Clark: I met the Cuban when I was my third year of graduate school. And he was in high school. So, his parents were my classmates. And so he was, you know my parents had a fit because he was nineteen. And when we got married, he turned twenty the next day. (laughs) And my parents thought he was gonna, he was too young. He was gonna, you know, leave me after a while. And I, but I thought, “Well, who cares? I'm gonna go for it.” And so, we spoke Spanish at home, and his parents spoke Spanish at, at home. So it was, I got into that other culture. And in fact, I got, I didn't have a Spanish accent when I was in college or with--when I was in high school. But I got, got the Spanish accent after living with Jose for all those years. Because we--and he doesn't have any accent. But anyway, so he came when he was fourteen, and so he had been in the US for five years. So anyway, that's how I ended up staying in the Spanish field. And kind of rediscovering my country through the academic degree. Because I specialize in Mexican literature. I met all these Mexican scholars. And I was in a totally different environment when I got back than I was Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 when I left. I didn't, I only had one aunt who was kind of an academic, but everybody else, you know, they were home. They stayed at home and they didn't, typical Mexican wife role. But I did have an aunt, who had the best collection of Mexican literature that I've ever seen anywhere. And I was trying to get her to leave it to me, but it didn't work out. So. Anyway anything about graduate school, or? Visintainer: Yeah I was, well I was curious when you moved, just to circle back a little bit, when you moved to Lansing. And you moved there, and then you went down south to Mississippi, and you talked about the culture shock. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about the culture shock. What you found as you were just starting to adjust to the Midwest. And then you moved to the South, what you found was shocking and the differences in those places. Clark: Well, the school, first of all, most of the schools I went to had all girls. And of course, the school in Michigan was a mixed, you know, boys and girls. And there were things happening. This is the time in the fifties that when education in the US totally did a change, a pivot, you know. Because I read a book called The Lonely Crowd. And it explains what happened in the US in the fifties, that the school systems started to do things very differently than before. For example, instead of having a desk that flipped--that had a lid, so you could keep all your stuff hidden, and private. It started to have these chairs with a, just a paddle where you could write on, and all your stuff was in view for the rest of the world. And they started to put your stuff on the bulletin board, your work on the bulletin board. And that was very alien to me. I had gone to these schools where everything was very regimented, the nuns and the-even I went to a school that was not Catholic. And it did have boys and girls, but it was very regimented. And you had to obey the teacher. You had to, when the teacher came in the room, you stood up. And when you went--were gonna go out, you had to get in single file. And everything was very regimented. And we wore uniforms. Whereas here in the school in Michigan, no uniforms. The classrooms were all like people sitting around tables. What was that? (laughs) Like the Socratic method, all of a sudden. (laughs) And people sitting around these open tables. And so the kid--the boys would put their feet up on the table, and the teacher didn't say anything. We had a science teacher who brought apples to the class. You know, eating in class? Wow. So things like that. And then just kind of a lack of structure at the time in the, in the school when I was used to all that. But at the same time, this kind of a Nazi-- no, I take that back. The gym teacher who says, “No, you will not, you will take a shower.” She wouldn't even let me like, go early and take a quick shower by myself. You know, she didn't wanna make any accommodations. So, I couldn't understand that. I understood authority cause of the nuns, but I don't know. I just--my mom never really followed the conventions. She was always a free spirit. So, in that way, we never had all the regimented things that you find in Mexico. Like my aunt died. Her sister died very young, and she would refuse to wear black. So, all her relatives criticized her. And then all my cousins were saying, “How come you're not wearing black?” So that was something that, you know, I was used to. But in the US there were some other things that some rigidity that I couldn't understand. Anyway, I was thirteen, you know, so that's not a good age to change cultures. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I was kind of, I was a kind of, well-developed thirteen, so the boys were starting to pay attention. But the boys in Mexico were eighteen, for example. You know, people are used to difference Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 in age. And the boys in Michigan were thirteen and they were shorter than I was. And just little boys. So that was also kind of sad because I was beginning to develop, you know, interest in the opposite sex. Plus the schools, you know, they were clannish. So of course, I was not a popular person because I didn't, I didn't speak the language. And I don't, I'm not talking about English, I'm talking about the teenage language, you know. I didn't have a group that I could hang out with. So I was kind of a nerd because I liked math. Then people didn't know where to put me cause I was too nerdish. And then at the same time, I was kind of sophisticated. I was more adult than they were. So it was a difficult time, to find a place there. Visintainer: When do you feel you found your place? Clark: Where? Visintainer: Where, yeah. Where? When? Clark: Kind of in Oxford. Because the girls were really friendly to me. Even the popular girls liked me. And they did the did the best they could to include me in all their activities and all the things that they were doing. And I found a friend there. We're still friends. We still write each other. We used to visit each other, but she was, she was a professor at USC (University of Southern California) and then she moved. She was--her father was a professor also. And this girl was, you know, she was kind of my intellectual equal in a way. She read a lot. She introduced me to a lot of English writers, cause her father was an English professor. And we used to kind of joke, with kind of sophisticated weight. I was--I really thought it was funny that I wish I had some stuff that I wrote when I was that age, because I think we were pretty witty at the time. And so that made me feel good. And she used to buy all these novels at the drugstore, and she would take off the front covers so her mother wouldn't know that they were X-rated (laughs). So, you know, I mean it was a fun time to be with somebody who was my age and was really into that stuff. And so she moved to Massachusetts, unfortunately. So that hit me in the head, because I don't fly anymore. And I don't think she's flying very much either. We're both--I'm gonna be eighty next month, and she's gonna be eighty in December, so we're getting there. So-Visintainer: But you've kept in touch. Clark: Yeah. Yeah. And that was great because she ended up at USC. She started out in Illinois, and then went to Texas, and she ended up at USC. So when she--her husband was at San Diego State, so she was living in La Jolla for a while. And we had to see each other a lot. So we still do a Zoom conversation once in a while. So that was, she contributed a lot to that. And then I have another friend that I stay in touch with who lives in Alabama. But we still stay in touch and they're Democrats (laughs). And then I had another friend who passed away two years ago. So, those three friends were great, and we were close. And so I didn't feel lonely anymore. I didn't date anybody until I was almost a freshman in college. I just wasn't attractive to guys, to the--I wasn't a southern bell. So I wasn't appealing to guys because I didn't just go and bat my eyelashes at anybody. I didn't know how to flirt at the time. Visintainer: Well and you needed you needed to find your group. Clark: Right. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: Yeah. So then you, you go to Lawrence (Kansas) after you graduated? Clark: Yes. Just, you know, my dad told me--asked me when I was a senior in high school, “Where is it that you wanna get your PhD?” (Laughs) He didn't even ask me, “Are you gonna get a PhD?” No. He says, “Where is it that you're going for your PhD?” So I, I'm one of those people who takes the first offer I get. I didn't take the first offer for marriage that I got, but I did take the first offer for graduate school. I took the first offer for the first job, for my first job. And then, the Cal State San Marcos job was kind of a first offer in the sense that it was new place. So anyway, I just I applied to places and I liked the--as I said, I was in French, so I applied at the University of Kansas because they had a good French department. So I got, it really appealed to me that, to study French at KU. And then I ended up studying Spanish. So. Visintainer: And so you came to KU and then you met Jose. And, so how did you meet Jose? Clark: Well, his parents were my classmates. Visintainer: That's right. Clark: And there was a party--this is a weird story too. There was a party, some Venezuelans, they--KU has an amazing number of programs with Latin America. I mean, just, you wouldn't believe it. And they had a program, with a Ford Foundation program to bring Venezuelan engineers to Kansas. So, my mother-in-law was the secretary to this project. And they invited her to a big party. And so her husband, who was also my classmate, and he was kind of a, had a roving eye. He had a crush on my roommate. So, he invited both of us so he could get to dance with my roommate. And then he went to Jose and said, “Hey, you know, I'm really interested in this girl. Would you mind dancing with the roommate?” (laughs) Who was me, “So that I can dance with Judy.” And so, he came and asked me to dance. And so, I thought, “Oh, how great.” Cause he was very good looking. And we just hit it off and we danced all night at that party. And at five in the morning his parents invited me to go have cognac in their--at their apartment. So, you know, we just started to see each other. But he was nineteen, and he looked like he was younger. So I thought, I'm really robbing the cradle big time, so I better stop this. So, I asked him point blank, how old are you? Because by this time, we had seen each other a couple of times, and he said, nineteen. And I thought, whew, you know, he's not underage (laughs). And also, you know, this is okay, we're having fun. No big deal. But we realized, you know, it was a lot more serious than we thought. So, we met--that was the Thanksgiving weekend of 1966. And we got married in (19)67 in August the next year. So, we didn't have a very long courtship. And what really speared that forward was that he was living with his parents in this duplex. And his grandmother was getting out of Cuba. You know, they were, they were Cuban refugees from the Castro regime. So, grandma was getting out and she had to share his bedroom, Jose's bedroom. So, I said, well, we couldn't live together. The department was very conservative, and I would've lost my assistantship if we had moved in together. It sounds hard to believe that people think in those terms now, but they were very, very conservative. So, I thought I didn't wanna jeopardize my studies. And so, we said, “Well, what do we do? We break up or we get married, you know, either one.” And so, he was just starting his freshman year anyway, so I said, “Well, I think we ought to break up because this is not--it's not viable.” I was living in this little apartment and, anyway I was making $240 a month, and I wasn't gonna marry somebody who didn't have any income. And his parents were students Transcribed by Aaron Williams 8 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 also. Cause when you got out of Cuba, no matter how much money you have, you have to get out with the clothes on your back. And his mother was a journalist, but she had, who came from a wealthy family, but she had to go work in a donut shop in Miami when they first came, got out of Cuba. So we didn't have any money, none of us. So I said, “Well, you know I don't know if we should get married. This is too serious. It's too soon.” And then, so then he gives me his grandmother's wedding band, and he says, “I'm serious. I really wanna marry you.” So we decided, okay, let's go ahead. And we got married and he got a job working in the language lab. And in the--at the library. (laughs) So we were living on like, with $350 a month. But we were living okay, you know? We discovered, yeah, we can make it go. And my parents came around and they really liked him, and they ended up just loving him to death, you know? So that was, that was a good thing. Even though a lot of people talked to us and said, “Don't do it. It's too soon.” Including the guy who married us was his speech professor. And he said, “Well, I'm not gonna marry you guys until I talk to you quite a bit.” So we had to go to his house many times. So he would give us--he was a Methodist minister, as well as being a professor on campus. And he talked to us a lot. And finally he says, “Yeah, I think you're gonna do okay.” And so, he married us. We had a very plain, very simple wedding in his parents' duplex. We invited friends who were also graduate students. They brought food. It was kind of a potluck. And here we are, fifty-six years later. Visintainer: It was a good start then. Clark: Yeah. That's been, to me, that's been the best part of my life is, you know, having Jose next to me for fifty-six years. Most of our lives. Anyway, so that was KU. I got my PhD in Spanish in ‘71. Like everybody else, I had to apply to a million places for a job. And I had, San Bernardino sounded really good to me because it was in California. I had my best friend, my best friend at KU was teaching there already. She had gotten her PhD at Ohio State, and she'd gotten hired at San Bernardino. We could have been done the same time, but I just, I wasn't in any hurry because Jose was not, wasn't graduating until ‘71. Oh, sorry. (laughs) Visintainer: No, you're fine. Clark: Tell me if I'm giving you too much information. Visintainer: No, no, no. It's really interesting. I'm happy you're sharing and thank you for sharing. So, Jose was graduating in 1971, so you had some time to kind of figure out your next steps. Clark: Yes. We didn't know what he was gonna do. So, he applied to graduate schools and he got accepted at UC Irvine. So we were happily planning for that. And of course, I had to stay in San Bernardino cause I've never been a good driver. So, he was gonna drive to Irvine to go to graduate school there. But he thought the drive was a little bit too long. And we weren't used to commuting and all that California life. So he applied at the library at Cal State San Bernardino. They had a temporary job, and it was perfect. He just loved it. So, he started working there. And that was ironic because there were a lot of jobs that I didn't take because--that I didn't pursue, because they were always asking me, “What's your husband gonna do? What's he gonna work at?” And so they would turn off because he didn't, he was--didn't have a job yet. And I was also childbearing age, and a lot of people didn't wanna hire you. I won't mention a couple of universities that I got approached by. And according to my professors, I had a really good chance to get--go there. But they were worried about Jose. So ironically, he started working where I worked. And then he got another job since that was only, that was Transcribed by Aaron Williams 9 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 temporary. The funds for that dried up. And so, the University of Redlands hired him. The library there. And he loved it. But I said, “No, you better get your degree because you can't be, just be a clerk all the time.” So he started going to USC and very slowly, and finally I said, “No, you just quit whatever you're doing and finish your degree, because that's the only way you're gonna have a career out of being a librarian.” And sure enough, it worked out so well because he's loved that career. And it's kept us on an even keel, always. Because my career sometimes was high pressure ‘cause I did some administrative work along the way. And so he, it was always good to have him in this job that he loved. And that wasn't super high pressure until he got in the county. And then that turned out to be very high pressure because he was--he became a supervisor. And that's, you know, anytime you go into administration, that's it for you because you start leaving the job that you love and doing a job that pays better, but gives you a little more prestige. But-- (laughs). Visintainer: Yep. It's very true. Well, as a librarian, I'm very happy that Jose was able to find his avocation in our vocation. Clark: I know. And it's, you know, librarian is such an interesting, has such an interesting opportunity to do all kinds of different things. So that he's found that, and he's always worked with women really well, you know, because so many women are in the library. And I work with men really well. So, we compliment each other because we're not jealous people who think, “Oh, you're gonna be with this person.” You know, I just always hung out with guys in my profession. And he's always gotten along with women and met--made really good friends in both areas. Visintainer: Yeah. And to circle back a little bit to coming to CSU San Bernardino, you mentioned that you had wanted to go to California, and I was curious as to what was the draw for California as opposed to other parts of the United States? Clark: Well, California has always had really good press, maybe until now that the states are so divided. But it always, it was always like paradise, if you wanna go to paradise in the US, go to California. And they show you all these orange groves and this beautiful weather and the ocean. And it was just, it just has a good ethos, you know? So I always really wanted to go to California. My parents ended up in Florida. I never had any desire to go to Florida, and for any, every reason in the world. But somehow California just seemed like this paradise. And also, you know, LA. Wow. San Francisco. (laughs) My dad lived in San Francisco many years, and he was always talking about San Francisco being such a great place. And then LA with Hollywood and, you know, just sounded like--plus the proximity to Mexico. You know, I always kept thinking, “Well, if I'm in California, I can always cross the border.” You know, I always felt kind of uneasy when I felt--when I lived really far from the border. Which is ironic because now I never get down there (laughs) you know, just. But I did find some relatives who live in Tijuana, so that's been great. You know, they come to visit. And, it's really good to keep track of my family that way. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: I found them on Facebook of all places (laughs). Visintainer: So Facebook has some, has some good things about it. Clark: Yeah. (laughs) Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: You can connect people. So you came to, so what was the decision to leave CSU San Bernardino and come to San Marcos? Clark: Well, when I was about three or four years before I left there, I discovered that I'd like to be an administrator. Because the Dean of Humanities left, and he asked me if I would be his replacement. So even though it was a really hard job, because he didn't look after any budgets. I mean, he was just so, he was a wild, loose, kind of a loose cannon. And I had to go, and as one colleague told me, I had to go shovel a lot of cages at the zoo when I took over that job. But I loved that job. So, it was an interim job. I had it for two years, and then I, when I applied for the permanent job, I didn't get it. So, I thought, “Well I, but I wanna do this.” So I started applying different places for dean's jobs. And I got, I did pretty well in the market, but it just wasn't appealing to me to go for several reasons. I had been in San Bernardino for nineteen years. I was used to the good weather. And so this, the Cal State San Marcos thing came up and he said, “You know, you start the, a program from scratch. Start the department from scratch.” And so I talked to people about it, and they, I said, “What do you do?” And says, “Oh, you can hire the kind of people that you want. You can go after the kind of faculty that you want. You can create the kind of curriculum that you want that you find is good. You can do a lot of stuff. It's, it's a huge opportunity.” So, I applied for it, and sure enough, I got the job. So it was--I moved kind of laterally because I had tenure there. I was a full professor. But I had no idea of all the horrendous amount of work that you have to do when you start a program. And, I probably wouldn't do it again. And my dad had done that in Florida, and he said, “Oh, be careful, because it's so much work.” And I just, you know, I just went in there thinking, “Well, how bad can it be?” And it was pretty bad (laughs) because I had to work year-round. And it was one thing after the other. I'll give you an example. Marion Ried (Dean of the University Library) came up to me and she was in charge of some funds that were assigned to the university. I don't know why they put her in charge of that. But anyway, she says, “You know, there's $150,000 earmarked for a language lab, and if you don't spend it,” this is in April when she talked to me, “If you don't spend it by the end of June, Bill Stacy's gonna take it.” He was the (university) president. “He's gonna just take it and spend it on something else because it’s gonna become available to the whole campus.” And I said, “We can't have a language department without a language lab. No way.” So, I had to go buy a language lab, and I had from April to end of June to do that. Well, how do you do that? Visintainer: Yeah, where did you begin? Clark: Yeah. I was lucky enough that the San Bernardino campus had redone its language lab, and they had formed a committee and they had, you know, interviewed different lab companies. And they had decided what kind of lab they wanted. And they already had the infrastructure though. And I had to start from zero. So I went to talk to the guy who ran that lab. Fortunately, he was somebody that I had supervised, and he just loved me. So he gave me all kinds of information and all kinds of help about what some of the pitfalls would be. And I picked that lab that, it was a Norwegian company, something like that. Norwegian, I think Norwegian. And I had to come up with a sole-source justification in just a little bit of time, because there was another company that was saying, “Why didn't you pick us? Why didn't you buy our lab?” And then I was lucky because I got two faculty who came, and they were very versed on the--they came from UC Irvine, and they had learned how the lab can be used as a teaching tool. And it was, you know, they had done workshops and they had done all kinds of stuff. And that's one of the reasons that I picked them to come be our next faculty. Because they had learned so much about what a language lab does other than just be an aide. Electronic aid, you know, technology aid. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 11 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 And it was a married couple. They both came together. And so she was the, she was doing all the all the software kind of stuff, and he was doing all the hardware kind of stuff. So, I was lucky that way that I-but I also see that as part of a, you know, being hired with experience. Because if I had been hired out of graduate school, I wouldn't have been able to do anything like that. And so, because I came with having chaired the department, having been a dean, and when you're Dean of Humanities, you deal with a lot of equipment. Because I had the arts under my supervision. And I had to deal with lots of interesting types of equipment. So it worked out. But it was a very tough two years. I was in, at one point, I was in like thirty-five hiring committees. Visintainer: Wow! Clark: And one of those committees was for literature, the literature department, which was called English at the time. We had eight hundred applicants for one position. Visintainer: Wow. Clark: So, you had to learn how to, you know, how to process stuff very quickly. And so, and also I had learned how to deal with administrators, higher administrators, to negotiate for things. So I was a little bit more informed as to how to deal with things. Because a lot of the faculty don't, they don't deal with anybody. They just go on, they do their great teaching and they do their research, but they don't they're not used to wheeling and dealing, for example. And so I learned very quickly that the first best, the people who got the best things, were wheelers and dealers in the faculty. I learned from some of my colleagues very well because you don't just get things by saying, “Yes, I accept the job. I'll be there this day. When do I start working?” You have to say, you know, “What, how much office space am I gonna get (laughs)? How much--what is gonna be my budget for traveling and for hiring? And how many faculty am I gonna have in five years? When you had to start that kind of thing. And in a way, I was not that good when I first came, but I learned very quickly. Very, very quickly you learned that. So that's what brought me to San Marcos wasn't the weather like a lot of people (laughs). It was the opportunity of starting a new department. And that was really interesting. But ironically, my ideal colleague--I was able to hire this guy. He was just wonderful. But he hated California. He couldn't, he couldn't live away from his mom. And so he left after two years. But I did get some of the other faculty that I think are ideal and wonderful. They're still here. Visintainer: That's good. So what was your vision when you started the department? Clark: Well, I wanted to, I wanted to have a major that would give the students the opportunity to go in different directions and to get lots of skills without having to, you know, because a lot of the majors are very academic. And I love the--I love that, but it doesn't give them many tools like to be teachers or to be like, go to work in business. And so I wanted to major that would be, that would help students be very versatile. And they could go in lots of different fields. And I think I accomplished that. Our major was, there were only two of us working on the major at the beginning, and it got accepted by the chancellor's office on the first meeting, you know. Because we came up with this modular plan, and also just wanted to hire a lot of faculty that I would love to work with. That was my vision as the harmonious department, because if people don't get along--and I came from a lot of programs where people didn't get along at all. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 12 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: That's really interesting. Cause yeah., cause there's a lot of at times disharmony in academia. Clark: Oh yeah! Visintainer: And in some ways, you know, for a good reason because there's a lot of debate and thought that has to go into things. ButClark: I mean, a department is made up of a whole bunch of prima donnas. Visintainer: Yeah. (laughs) So how did you go about building harmony in a department, in your department? Clark: I don't know. I can't tell you exactly. You just have a feel for people. And I was, I just use my instincts a lot. And so I try to get people to apply that I knew were very easy to work with, that love to work with you, that no matter what you ask of them, they would do it. But the guy who came with me, the first guy, we went too far because he never said no to anybody. And at some point he burned out. But he was good to work with. I mean, he was good to be here the first two years. Unfortunately, he passed away not too long ago. But, anyway he--so I just, I just had a feeling that people who were my friends, besides being my colleagues. And I knew a lot of people, you know. I had--they applied a lot of people from different areas applied here because I went, I worked a long time for grading the Advanced Placement (AP) exam. So, I had a huge network because those, you meet people every year, and you get to know each other. And so that's what it was, just, you know--and then what my big goal was always to help people thrive. And not put any obstacles in their development. And one of my professors at KU said, because I, my dissertation was kind of weird. And then I said, “You know, I'm surprised that, that you approved it, because I know that it is very unconventional approach to literature.” And he said, “Look, to me, your dissertation is your beginning work. If I'm gonna consider that your master work, then you're in trouble. Because this is what's gonna kick you into the field and into the academic world.” And I did have a professor who didn't wanna approve it, and these guys kind of rallied. And they said, “We couldn't, you couldn't take it out of the building to read it.” And so, he refused to go to read it in the building. Visintainer: What, so what--what was weird about your dissertation? Clark: Well, it was a very like a very close reading of some works. Very, very close. I was using a method that was kind of controversial at the time. It was called the--what is it called? My head is not working anymore. But anyway, you, if you read a work very closely, you analyze, you know like even stylistic patterns in something. You can kind of make conclusions that are much broader about the work then you can if you approach it from the outside and just look at the--look at it from a bird's eye view. Like if you read something and you say, the plot is this and the blah, blah, blah. But if you’re really close, read closely and about all the language used in it and everything. And some people at the time didn't like that method. It was an, it was a method followed by some English writers, American writers. It was an American thing. But I applied it to Mexican literature. So, a lot of people thought that was, it was stupid that it didn't lead you anywhere. And this writer that I went--that I wrote on, had been written on by a lot of people. And so this guy who didn't wanna pass me said, “Where's the, where's the biography of this writer? Where's the list of the his works? You don't learn anything about the guy.” I said, “No, no, no. I don't Transcribed by Aaron Williams 13 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 wanna learn about the guy. I wanna learn about the worlds he's creating in his works. You know, what kind of world is he creating with the use of this language?” And so it was--you know, some people thought it was too weird or maybe it didn't go far enough out. You know, it was not a universal thing. But it was, I was kind of following a method by an anthropologist (Claude) Lévi-Strauss, you know. Have you heard of Lévi-Strauss? Visintainer: I have not. Clark: Anyway, he studied people by patterns of--I'm losing my train of thought here. He studied people by the patterns in their culture, not coming from you know, the outside and saying, “Oh, they do this, they eat at this time.” But it's following very, very specific things that they did. Anyway. So it worked for me and, and I learned a lot about analyzing literature. And so that helped me in my teaching. So, whereas this guy, the professor who didn't wanna pass me, pass my dissertation. Well he--I had a course from him and he ordered ten books. It was gonna, it was Romanticism in Spain, okay. Romanticism in literature in Spain. And he started with the eighteenth century before Romanticism. And he gave us so much stuff about the eighteenth century, he never got to Romanticism. So I returned all the books without reading them because he never got to the subject. And so that's, I wanted to avoid that at all costs. I said, “I wanna read the works, I wanna see what the work is itself, and I don't care if the author was, you know, if he was gay, if he was an idiot, I don't care. I wanna see what he left behind.” So it was very close text reading, textual reading. And some people didn't appreciate that. So. But it served me well. Lemme tell you, I use that method throughout my career and it really helped. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I'm still reading like that. I don't read as much anymore, but I'm still kind of, “Oh look, this word he uses here.” Anyway, any more questions? Visintainer: Yeah. Could we circle back to the kind of the founding of the department? Clark: Yes. Visintainer: And I was just curious, what do you think was your, like your biggest challenge in those early years in founding the department, and coming on board at CSUSM? Clark: Oh, I don't wanna say. Visintainer: (Laughs) Well, you don't have, you don't have to answer if you don't want to. Clark: No, no. Because, because this campus developed very--I came from a very organized campus. And most people didn’t wanna realize that this was a CSU campus. They thought they were gonna create something from scratch that was brand new. And there are all these people who came from these different backgrounds, like faculty who came from liberal stu--liberal arts colleges, from big research universities. And I said, “This is a Cal State, people. We, that doesn't mean we have to look down on anybody, but it's, we have to be real about who the students are gonna be, and then what they need to learn.” So, ‘cause I've always been kind of an elitist in my, in my own mind, but not when it comes to educating students. I think, you know, you really need to consider the fact that people come from Transcribed by Aaron Williams 14 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 backgrounds that maybe aren't, they're not up to here academically, but they're very bright people. So just look at them, look at their interests, look at their--what they wanna learn. And I always love the Cal States because people pay for their own education. People pay for their, you know, they’re often the first person in their family to go to college. They work forty hours a week to go to college. They have children, they have other interests. They have jobs, they have parents. If you come from a Latino family, you know, you have to take care of your parents. They have husbands who don't want them to study. There's machismo there. You know, a big, big obstacle for Latina women. Anyway, just look at the students that we get, and don't look down on them. Look at what the possibilities are with these people because they're, they wanna learn. They're here because they want to be, not because, you know like when my last class at KU was on Friday, it would meet Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays at four o'clock in the afternoon. And sometimes on a Friday, I wouldn't have anybody showing up. Even though they knew that it counted, that I took off for absences. They just didn't care, you know, because they were gonna go into daddy's business, or they were gonna go into their uncle’s (business), you know, these people who they just weren't interested. And so, I said, that's what I love about the Cal State, is it has such a mission of, like now it's right in line with us because of the upward mobility. Because I was lucky that I didn't have to think about that, ‘cause I had parents who were educated. I always had books in my house. I always had. But these people who are, they've never seen a book in their house. They don't even get a magazine. And all of a sudden they have to, they have all these things thrown at them, but they wanna learn. So, I always had a lot of respect for the Cal State system for that reason. And a lot of my colleagues just, it makes me sad that they think the students are not up to par, blah, blah, blah. But it's, I've always loved the state universities because they want to educate the masses. And I love, I love for the masses to learn! And I like to be in the trenches. So that was why I didn't wanna leave the system. At the same time, you know, I yearned for these people who, like my friend, the USC friend, she’s taught-she's had years when she taught five or six student graduate students. And that's her whole teaching load. Where my advisor who had a chair at KU and he could just go. He went through South America traveling one year and left us in his house, to house sit for them. And, just visiting different universities and different libraries and doing research all over the place for his book. And he didn't have to teach a single class in two years. So I yearn for that, but at the same time, I like the idea of seeing people. And I still have people who, you know, look me up. Visintainer: That's impact. Clark: My students have retired already. Some of my students, my first students from San Bernardino. Yeah this one woman, she tracked me down here, and every year she and her husband come to visit us for when they come on vacation. And she's a retired teacher already. So it's, you know, it's very sad how some people don't care. Once the students leave, that's it. Visintainer: Yeah. I think there's definitely an ethos that comes from--that comes from being at a teaching university and embracing it and-Clark: Right. Visintainer: Great things that it can do for social mobility and upward mobility. And I appreciated you mentioning and talking about our students. And that kind of had me spur a question that I wanted to ask Transcribed by Aaron Williams 15 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 you. And was, what do you think was the big takeaway that you've learned from our students over the years? Clark: That they want, they want to learn and that they want to prosper. And very often their circumstances do not allow them to prosper, and do not allow them to learn. Many, many people I had to--I had a husband one time coming from a student who was in a couple of my classes, and he said, “I wanna come and sit in your classes cause I wanna watch my wife and make sure she doesn't talk to any guys.” I said, “No, you're not welcome there, because you're not a student and you're there for the wrong reasons.” So, I was worried that she was gonna get the brunt of that, but she eventually left that guy. But he would sabotage her learning. And I think, you know, and she kept going. She kept going. And I had another one here on this campus who, she was regularly beaten by her husband because she wasn't--she didn't have the food cooked when she, you know, she was in class and she didn't have the meal prepared. And so she's--but she went ahead and got her master's degree somehow. And I think the students are very resilient and they work very hard to make it. They don't, of course there are a lot of deadbeats too, but that doesn't--they're everywhere. But the majority of the students, I mean, I ask in class, I never had to work as a waitress or anything like that, you know. And I asked in my class one time, “What, how many of you're working?” And I would say, I would calculate like eighty percent raised their hands. And I said, “How many of you work more than twenty hours a week?” And most of them raise their hands again. Whereas, you know, I got to work in the language lab, I got--but that was for my extras. You know, my dad said, “If you want this and that, if you wanna buy records or if you wanna buy this.” But we didn't have to go to work. And we had a home that supported doing homework. And my mom wasn't around completely. But anyway. It was good. I had a good upbringing in that sense, and I wanted the students to get help that way. So I did a few things that weren't, didn't mean very much but for example, when I went to Mexico City you can buy books. Like you can buy literature in the newsstands for like fifty cents a book or something. So, I would buy if I knew I was gonna use the book in my class, if you order it from, well now Amazon, but if you order it from a bookstore, they'd have to pay like ten dollars for that book. And I would buy all these books for fifty cents and then bring them back and say, “If you can't afford the books, come and see me.” So, they would come, sometimes very ashamed. But I said, “Don't be, don't be embarrassed. Just, you know, just come and see me.” And I’d say, “Okay, you can use this book. Use it in the class. If you really like it and you wanna keep it for your library, you can keep it. If you don't wanna keep it, just give it back to me.” And they would always keep it, because they were building a library. That was so cool. And then all my books, when my mother died, all her books came to me. And there were duplicates of a lot of stuff I had. So I took them to the office and I said to the graduate students, “Take anything you want.” And now we're, fortunately we get to leave things to the campus. We're fortunate that we're--we decided to leave our estate to the campus. Because we want to, we want students to prosper in any way they can. And sometimes it's just a question of a thousand dollars that's gonna put them over the edge. I wish we had millions, but we don't. So. Visintainer: Well that's, that's wonderful to be able to leave something to foster student success in the future. Clark: Yeah. Because I have a family, but they can look after themselves, they've had good opportunities. And, we don't have kids. So we're not responsible for anybody in particular. So, I don't wanna make, I don't wanna tire you because I've been talking so much about myself (laughs). Transcribed by Aaron Williams 16 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: No, no, you're fine. Well, we can, we can certainly look towards wrapping things up. I've enjoyed talking with you. I did wanna--I did want to ask you kind of a wrap up question. Is that, is there anything that you wish I would've asked you that I didn't? Clark: Not really. I think, I can just go ahead and talk forever about all this. It's an eighty-year-old life, so eighty years of being on this earth, that's a long time. And so there’s things that I don't remember at all. And the things that I remember so vividly, and when I went to see Roma (2018 film), I just cried throughout the whole movie. Bought it on Netflix, but I just--I cried and cried, and cried the whole movie. Because he captures that neighborhood so well. And he, there's a documentary that where he explains how he captured that neighborhood. And he was really meticulous about every single thing, like those little soldiers at parade every morning. I mean, there were details like that, that I've never seen in a movie before. And also because Mexico City always looks like a, this gray place with dirt, dirt streets and everything. And here's this guy who is just--captures the neighborhood that I grew up in. I mean, what are the chances? Because most people show you the tourist view of Mexico City. And so that's what, that's what I miss. It's like the daily noises, and the daily routines, and the kind of house that it is and the maid. Very sad because we did have a couple of maids, like the--like this girl, they would come and knock on your door and say they were there from Oaxaca and did you have any, did you have any work for them? And my mother took, did take a couple of people like that. We didn't have any money at the time, but anyway, she did take a couple of these girls. And they didn't even speak Spanish, these poor girls. So that just--that really got me, that movie. And so I always tell people, if you wanna get to know me, watch that movie. But I don't, I'm not the maid. I'm the, I'm the person from the señora, you know? Because the grandma didn't even know her name. And then I kept thinking, I didn't know any of these girl's names. I didn't know where they came from. And when she has a baby, and they take her to the hospital, says, “What's her name?” And she doesn't even know her name. Because there's, it's another world that I never got to know. And I used to think, “Oh, Oaxaca, that has to be the scum of the earth.” And, and I fell in love with Oaxaca the first time I went there. It kind of shows you that you don't, you never appreciate your own world until you're out of it. Visintainer: Yeah I, you know, as somebody who did not grow up in Roma but I saw the movie, I thought it was an amazing, just an amazing creation of space. And I didn't know if it was you know, how particularly accurate it was or not. So, it's nice to hear that it really spoke to you on an emotional and memory level. Clark: Yeah. There, this little scene, there's a scene when the guy leaves her (Cleodegaria "Cleo" Gutiérrez, main character of Roma), she says she's pregnant and the guy leaves her, and she's sitting on the steps of this movie theater. And there are all these noises because people go outside of the movie theater, they're selling a lot of stuff. Little toys and everything. And she's just surrounded by all these noises and she's just sitting there in her loneliness, you know? And here's the interesting cultural thing is that nobody goes to the movies on Sundays, except the maids and their boyfriends and, you know, the domestic help. That's when they go to the movies, and they go see Mexican movies. The middle class goes to see the American movies first run, you know. And they go during the week or on the week--on Saturday, but not on Sunday afternoon, belongs to the servants. So it's an upstairs/downstairs world that most people don't realize. And, so it's kind of hard to also to explain that to people that, you may not have anything in common who is from Mexico. There are people from Mexico that I have absolutely nothing in common with. Cause they were brought up--we had a cleaning lady, and she would not, she invited us to her house on her birthday. She would not sit down with us to eat, even though it was her birthday. And I knew. I understood it. And I, we didn't insist on anything, because she would not sit Transcribed by Aaron Williams 17 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 down with us to eat. So that's--it's a different world that is very hard to explain to people. And, so that's another challenge for me that I live in two worlds in my head. I've got one foot here and one foot there and they never come together. Visintainer: And I think that that's probably an experience for folks that move from country to country or even within countries. Clark: Exiles. Yeah. People who have grown up somewhere else. And, who was I talking to about that the other day? It was very interesting because we were saying because I--oh, I have a lot of, most of my friends are really from someplace else (laughs). Even though, not on purpose, they're faculty on campus. But, I was looking at my, one of my Zumba classes. There was nobody born in the US in that Zumba class. I don't know. I kept seeing, maybe there was one person. But there was a woman from Colombia, there was a woman from Japan, another one from Puerto Rico. Well, Puerto Rico's US, but they have another culture. And so it was just so strange that we're exiles and we do have a common denominator, but that never reaches you the most in the deepest way. You always have, you always have this farness. Visintainer: And I, yes. I wanted to share that I lived in the Rio Grande Valley of TexasClark: Oh, you did? Visintainer: And, yeah. And when I was there, you know, I had somebody tell me what they thought of the Valley, and I thought it was really interesting in that that he said, “It's a liminal place. It's a place that's not quite Texas, it's not quite Mexico.” It exists in its own way and with its own rules and its own identity. And that causes, in some ways, for folks that live in the Rio Grande Valley, that sense of displacement when they’re in other places because they don't feel quite--and I'm speaking in generalities but, you know, there's a feeling of not quite being Texas, not quite being the US, not quite being Mexico all wrapped into its own place and culture. That was really interesting. And, and I really-Clark: Yeah, I really wanna visit with you sometime and hear more about you, so. Visintainer: Yeah. Well, we can get together and chat, but this is not about me, and I just went on a tangent. I apologize. (laughs) Clark: I know, I know. No. No, but it's good. It's good. So well, thank you for the interview and I hope I didn't leave anything major out. But if I did, give me a call or send me an email because, you know how I'm always willing to talk about myself. (laughs) Visintainer: Sure, sure. Well I really appreciate you chatting with me today, Stella. And I'm gonna pause recording and then, and then we can wrap up with anything else. Clark: Okay. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 18 2024-04-26 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clark, Stella. Interview transcript, August 9, 2023. Description An account of the resource Dr. Stella Clark grew up in Colonia Roma, Mexico City, and moved to the U.S. in her early childhood. She grew up in a family who valued education; both her parents received a PhD and she was expected to get one as well. Clark received her bachelor's degree in French and her master's and PhD degrees in Spanish. She began her professional career at California State University, San Bernardino and eventually applied to California State University San Marcos, where she founded the Modern Languages Department and created the university's language lab. In her interview, Clark discusses how she made an impact not only on her students learning but life as well by encouraging all to pursue their academic dreams, and on the struggles that working students and women students face in getting an education. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stella Clark Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-08-09 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Bernadino California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Modern Language Studies Department Education, Higher Immigrants -- United States Kansas University Mexican Americans -- California -- San Diego County Mexican Americans -- Education (Higher) Mexicans -- United States Roma (Motion picture : 2018) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colonia Roma (Mexico City, Mexico) East Lansing (Mich.) Lawrence (Kan.) Oxford (Miss.) San Bernadino County (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. 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The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ClarkStella_VisintainerSean_2023-08-09_transcript CSUSM history Immigrant experience Latine experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacob Peirce Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Alexa Clausen OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ClausenAlexa_PeirceJake_2022-04-12.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 2022-04-12 Oral history of Alexa Clausen, April 12, 2022 SC027-15 00:51:35 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Adobe houses Historic buildings -- Conservation and restoration. San Diego County (Calif.) Alexa Clausen Jacob Pierce mp3 ClausenAlexa_PeirceJake_2022-04-12.mp3 1:|15(8)|25(3)|36(2)|45(11)|62(1)|84(8)|93(8)|110(2)|126(10)|136(8)|154(6)|164(1)|173(10)|187(6)|201(9)|211(5)|219(1)|235(8)|244(2)|261(1)|273(1)|284(11)|296(6)|308(13)|317(11)|342(5)|351(7)|364(3)|378(6)|388(12)|397(3)|411(1)|423(14)|432(10)|441(7)|457(4)|465(3)|480(11)|488(9)|498(10)|506(8)|520(12)|536(3)|550(4)|559(3)|569(5)|582(5)|597(17) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/45c2cfd31ca6068f7c1bbef6263d29e6.mp3 Other audio English 17 Background / Starting Adobe Home Tours Alexa Clausen: Well, thank you. And I'm happy to be here since we only have an hour, I'll try to do the mini version. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I grew up in Riverside, California. I got my advanced degrees in San Diego, so University of San Diego undergraduate, and then master's degree at San Diego State. At the same time that I was studying, my master's degree took me seven years because I was working full-time for California State Parks. So, I have a career with state parks and essentially doing local regional statewide and contextual related history for projects with state parks. So, when I retired in 2008, we had moved to Escondido in 1993, I think. And I had some friends in the history business, Lucy Burke, who was very active in historic preservation, always nagging me: When are you going to retire? You know, join us and, and all this stuff. So finally, when I did retire, I had our son – I had him late in in life – so he was still in elementary school, high school. So, I wasn't too involved, but I did have the sense that I want to give back to the community of history because when I was working professionally without internet and all this, I was visiting people who were saving history in boxes under their beds. You know, there was some places didn't have historical societies ; it was just mom and pop trying to save history. So, you know, I felt like I wanted to give back, and so I started volunteering and then, when my son was at St Mary's in elementary school, there's another student. His name was Sean McCoy. Well, his father, they had a little birthday party. I think they were in fifth grade, so this might go back to maybe 2004 or 2005, and he lived in Valley Center. The house was adobe, and I was really curious, but in their study there were all these houses on craftsman architecture. I looked at Tom, who's just a really gregarious, hardy guy that runs a landscaping business. He's Cal[ifornia] Poly[technic] [State] [University] educated and in landscaping. And I'm like, no, it's not. It must be his wife. &lt ; laugh&gt ; So eventually at the swim party, the kids were busy and I said, “Hey, you know, Tom who's collection of books here, you're doing craftsmen?” Well, that unleashed Tom, and he found a soulmate in the interest. And as a few years went on, he always said there, “We have to do something. I go to Pasadena to the home tours and they're all rooted in Green and Green Architecture, which was known for the craftsmen, but we have our own, you know, handcrafted Adobes here.” And I'm like, “[O]kay, Tom, let's do a tour.” And he claims that, you know, I kept pushing him to, oh, won't this be fun? And so the two of us kind of started Adobe Home Tour, but we were fortunate that the director Wendy Barker at the historical society wanted to go ahead and take our little idea under her wing. They had been doing garden tours, so they were familiar with parking and talking to homeowners, so we really had a jump there and we were lucky. And of course with the insurance that the Escondido History Center was all behind us. And our very first brochure was a front-to-back 8.5”x11” piece of paper off a copier, and that's kind of where it started. Peirce: Well, you have to start somewhere, right? Clausen: Yeah. It's funny, and of course I was thinking, “[O]h, he'll get over it.” You know, this is one year we had maybe 60 people come and it was word of mouth, mainly his friends and the historical society, people and friends of the homeowners, so it was really grassroots or mom and pop, whatever you want to call it. And our last tour we sold out at 500 tickets. Peirce: Wow. Clausen: Yeah. So that was the route. I came here through my training, I don't own an adobe home and it was really a feeling to give back to history essentially. Alexa Clausen talks about her education and career and how that has led to her interest in adobe homes. Furthermore, Alexa Clausen talks about how her background as a historian for the California State Parks led to her interest in leading adobe home tours. Clausen also talks about different home tours in Southern California which influenced her to start Adobe Home Tours. California State Parks ; career ; San Diego State ; University of San Diego ; volunteering Adobe Home Tours ; California State Parks historian ; Education ; Interest in adobe homes ; Working while getting an education 33.9806° N, 117.3755° W 17 Riverside County 336 Previous career with the California State Parks / Contributions to Adobe Home Tours Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. Going back to your previous stops in your career with the California State Parks, was this something that was kind of in the same realm of what you were doing? Looking at architecture and looking at stuff like that and giving tours, or did you do something different while you were there? Clausen: You know, it really wasn't. The historic preservation and the architecture was handled mainly by specialists, and a lot of that was rooted in the state office of historic preservation, which was like a cousin branch of State Parks and the very highly trained historians specializing in architecture. So, I was really weak and had to do a catch up self-trained. All of my projects were budget driven. For example, if they, maybe the volunteers of the Rangers wanted to do a new booklet for a visitor center and it had a historical element in it, they would budget for hours for that. Or if there's a general plan, they needed a historian to do the cultural. So a lot of my jobs were just skipping around and providing research and history for whatever was budgeted and needed. And generally, if there was like an architectural survey, they were contracted out by specialist, or the state office would contract. So, during my career, for example, they did a thematic statewide survey of the Civilian Conservation Corps buildings that were still in state parks. Now they took their cue from the feds who were doing a survey in national parks and in the forest service, but again, that was handled by specialists. So, you know, while we would exchange, read material, go to the same conferences, it is a specialty that I'm probably not the best at, but I do provide that research for Adobe Home Tour. So, it was a different kind of specialty, yeah. Peirce: Absolutely. It sounds more like you were – in your role with the state parks – you were more of a jack of all trades rather than a master of specifically architecture in that field. Clausen: Oh, absolutely, and in time they umbrellaed all that under cultural resources management and it was the archeologist and the historians and sometimes the landscape architects depending on the project. Peirce: Absolutely. Given that Tom seemed to be your partner in crime in the beginning of this adventure, –and he seemed to have more of the specific knowledge when it came to the adobe tours, based on what you're saying – what would you say that was your biggest contribution to the beginning of it? Was it the organization? Was it your specific knowledge of how to provide background information? What would you say was your biggest contribution in the beginning? Clausen: Well, actually, I think Tom felt like I was just the cheerleader. &lt ; laugh&gt ; But, you know, I think it helped Tom have the confidence. With his career running a landscape business, he wasn't as free to do some things, and I think he always saw me as a little bit of the conduit to the history community. He's second generation – grew up in Escondido through his business and his family – they know every nook and cranny in the city, but Tom I think felt like I was the person that can talk to the historical society and get that connection. And then when it came to maybe talking to some families about the history of their homes – although Wendy did a lot of it in the beginning – in time, I took over all of that as eventually she took another job, but, you know, they had the historical society to run. I think Tom just really needed someone who talked a little more of the language to keep connected with the historical society and the history side of it. That's my take, if you ever tape Tom, maybe he'll have a different, &lt ; laugh&gt ; a different take on it. Alexa Clausen gives an overview of her career with the California State Parks and working in historic preservation and architecture. She also talks about her contributions to starting the Adobe Home Tours with Tom. architecture ; Civilian Conservation Corps ; Escondido ; historic preservation ; historical society California State Parks ; Civilian Conservation Corps ; Historic preservation in the California State Parks 33.1192° N, 117.0864° W 17 Escondido, California 619 Getting involved / Why adobe homes? Peirce: &lt ; laugh&gt ; No, that's absolutely fair. That takes me into something else I kind of wanted to explore with you if don't mind. I'm very interested in how you and Wendy and Tom and everybody else who was involved – especially in the beginning – how you managed to convince people to take part in this project. Because like you said, a lot of these people, these aren't just like “Oh, I own this random home that is just sitting out here for display.” This is where people live and work and raise their families. How did you manage to convince people to take part in what you were trying to achieve? Especially in the beginning. Clausen: You know, I haven't thought about it. Some of it was Tom's personal contacts and he knows people who know people and he knocked on doors, and then Wendy at the historical society, they also knew people who had adobe homes and was literally making lists, like, “Should we call this one? Should we call that one?” but I have to wonder now that you brought it up if the timing was right. Garden tours were becoming very popular at the time. They were fundraisers for not just historical societies, but you know, maybe natural garden clubs. I think garden clubs maybe had a longer history of that, but history house tours were becoming popular at the time. I think a lot of that starts going backwards to the US bicentennial, where historic preservation was taking off, and I have to wonder if people who buy adobe homes sort of needed a validation. Recently he had a potluck, and I ran into a lady who said, “My friends tell me you're crazy to have bought this home. You know, why would you live in this mud home?” &lt ; laugh&gt ; so maybe there's just a little twinkle of wanting the validation. You know, I'm really taking a guess at this ; I hadn't really thought about it. But I do think people had the confidence –the historical society had been doing an annual home tour and then the old neighborhood in downtown Escondido, they started doing a Mother's Day home tour – so the idea of a home tour maybe wasn't as foreign had we been maybe one of the first to ever do this in Escondido. I think those two projects really made people aware and it wasn't just so scary that other people were opening their houses. In the old neighborhood after COVID, it'll be the first time in a few years, and they will do another Mother's Day home tour, and I think they're on their like 25th anniversary. And the historical society, they partnered with that, so they had the experience also and word of mouth that this isn't kind of some creepy people knocking on the door saying, “Whoa, you know, what you can do is clean up your house and let people in.” So, I really didn't think about it and it's not scientific by any manner, but I think there is an opening and I find that Adobe Home Tours love the validation. They love to know that other people, once they've seen their house, they get it. They really think it's something special. That's just my take on it. Peirce: Absolutely. I mean, that makes complete sense. One question I did have as well: was there any sort of impetus? Was this just organic? You just happened to bring this up and it just kind of grew up? Or was there any sort of given that some people want that validation, right? A lot of people may not want to live in this kind of home. Was there any sort of preservation or were these houses being torn down or was there any sort of event like that that was kind of like, “Man, maybe we should foster some sort of appreciation within the region to make sure that we keep this history alive a little bit.”? Clausen: You know, I think that became one of our causes or mantras or whatever is as we backed into this – like just a couple of mom and pop &lt ; laugh&gt ; people with no experience but some dumb luck and some decent connections – is that as these homes aged, and of course, in the history of a lot of the homes, the midcentury, the builders and the real estate developers, they picked out, we call it ‘cherry picked’ the lots. You could go into orange groves and carve out incredible views – and many of the adobe homes have incredible views – and I believe that before property values really started to skyrocket that they were at risk because once you have an incredible view, then you know, we came the era of McMansions. This is happening in cities everywhere: Los Angeles and San Francisco are some of the worst cases where the beautiful Spanish revival homes are gone. They're bulldozed for these – you know, it's probably not polite to call McMansions ; someone coined that phrase for overbloated size of houses with great views. I think we all, the core of us that worked on this had the feeling that they were at risk. The other timing of this is many homes are not eligible for Mills Act and historic preservation review unless they've reached 50 years old. Now, many of the adobes that were in the midcentury revival, the boom that started with the edges of Longview Acres and up and down here in the Via Rancho Parkway area around Felicita Park, Adobe homes were starting to be built in the late forties and into the fifties. If the home had not reached 50 years old, it was not eligible for review as a candidate for a higher level of putting out on a register for review and protection. There's no guarantee, but I think that the age started working for us as these homes were turning fifty and the appreciation with the old neighborhood and appreciation everywhere was starting to grow and the concern for being bulldozed. So it's almost like you had a little bit of a perfect storm coming in for the recognition of an adobe home, and they did stop construction by state law in the eighties. So, then another one of our “Gee, you, you're not going to see these again. You have a chance to really see something special.” Peirce: Was there a reason that they stopped the construction at that point? Was it just not feasible for like a, what is it, like an earthquake code or something like that? Clausen: Well, I talked to several builders. George Patterson when he was living and then Mike Burton, whose father and grandfather – Hiram Smith his grandfather and then Don Burton his father – they had no concerns about earthquakes. They were using a lot of rebar and the adobe block by that time had added a petroleum-based product developed in the late thirties and through the war time, so adobe block now was solid construction. I was told it was all about thermal and insulation. Both builders said it was an argument with the state of California with, I don't know, engineering approval people that went down to the county, that an adobe will take in thermal heating, you know, it takes three days to warm up and, you know, on and on, and they refused to approve adobe construction based on that. The other thing the builder said is that the labor became too costly ; you had labor, construction workers still willing up to a certain time to take and build these, you know, carry these blocks and do this kind of labor. It was easier to get a job somewhere else, and it didn't, you know, literally break your back. So between the rise of cost of labor – and then in Escondido, the adobe block yard went out of business ; the blocks now had to be shipped from Fresno or elsewhere – and it became just too costly to build. So, it was all those things. Peirce: Yeah. That makes sense. You know, it tends to go when things become cost prohibitive, it definitely will stop people in their tracks and in terms of doing that kind of stuff. Clausen: Right. So that ended adobe construction in California, because of course there still is adobe construction in New Mexico, Arizona, and globally, for that matter, you know, worldwide. The adobe is still a popular way to build a cheap way if you have the labor. Alexa Clausen talks about how she became interested in wanting to focus on adobe homes and looking for others who had adobe homes for tours. Clausen then gives a historical overview of adobe homes and their significance in society. Furthermore, she talks the logistics of adobe homes and safety and building measures. adobe homes ; developers ; historical society ; neighborhood ; tour Adobe Home Tours ; Appreciation for adobe homes ; History house tours ; Looking for adobe homes for tours ; Scouting adobe homes 33.1192° N, 117.0864° W 17 Escondido, California 1223 Expansion and evolving / Collaboration Peirce: Yeah, absolutely. Seeing that this isn't the only place where Adobe houses were built – and are built even to this day – as you guys kind of built this program and as it continued to grow, was there any sort of view of trying to expand to a larger area or working with other tours if they existed in places like New Mexico, to try and collaborate in any way? Or was this a very grassroots, “We’re sticking where we are and just kind of making this grow naturally where it is?” Clausen: Well, I think we would've loved to become a bigger, wider organization, but it all comes down to volunteers. And as you know, a lot of this, unless you're a paid staff putting on something like this-- Although we were thrilled: we had a tour in Pauma Valley a few years ago, we've been invited to work with Valley Center Historical Society ; there's a number of adobes there. We were also invited through Dominic Calarco who supervises the park system in Carlsbad ; they would like to feature Leo Carillo and find some adobe homeowners there. So, we do have an interest, very North County interested people, and we'd like to do that, and then it keeps it from being boring Escondido ; not boring, but, you know, you do sort of run out of homes or people that are willing. We do have bigger interest, and we know that people have traveled from Los Angeles and from other places to come and see the homes and be on the tour. In an ideal world? Yeah, wouldn’t it be neat to have this grand old, famous tour? You know, some cities do – the Palm Springs mid-century modern tour is just crazy famous, the Pasadena tours are – but we're restricted now by just a small group of volunteers. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, it can be difficult even with that outside interest when you don't have the facility to make it happen, whether it's personnel or whatever. There's always a friction, there's always that rub that kind of keeps you from doing more, even if there's the interest. Did you take anything from other tours? Did you learn from them? Or did you go, “We want to do something different. We want to kind of stick to our own program here?” Clausen: You know, the way I think this evolved, with a number of our Adobe homeowners haved jumped in after their home was on the tour to take a role and to help out. And so, for example, our current webmaster, Don, he took over the website. Intense interest in adobe, and really likes to post a lot of stuff, even adobe homes for sale. And then we had a lady – Mary Del May – she had taken over for Wendy in 2015 I want to say, I'll have to look it up, and professionalized it, and Tom ; all of them have been on other home tours. So, I think what they brought to the table was things they liked, like, “Gee, you know, it was nice when we had a booklet, a full booklet and, you know, we could cut costs by having sponsor pages. That'll help the printing if we do a bigger booklet.” So, our homeowners who jumped in, I think they did bring experience from things they liked going on other tours. Then as we planned this, I think some things from other tours come in like don't let people stand too long. “Oh, we were in Tucson. We had to wait 45 minutes, but they sold cocktails.” &lt ; laugh&gt ; We're like, oh, we can't sell cocktails, but you know, we do have these, yeah. I think that everyone who has participated brings what they like, and they don't like, suggestions, they work, they don't, we've tried some things. So yeah, I'd say that we have benefited from other tours. Peirce: And it also sounds like you've benefited from, as you've done this program, collaborating with some of the people that have owned these homes, right? Like you said earlier-- Clausen: Oh, absolutely. Peirce: It sounds like that's really been honestly, and correct me if I'm wrong, kind of the heart of the program as it's moved forward. Clausen: It really was helpful because in order to invite and ask people “Would you have your home on the tour?” They're shaking in their boots and to have other homeowners say, look, here's some information, which they've developed a little “Hello, homeowner, potential homeowner. This is what we did, little hit lists of this is what happens.” And then we also developed a security docent guide and docent stations. And that came out of the feedback from the homeowners to pace our volunteers throughout the home and allow people not to wander through on their own, but in groups as a group tour. And a lot of this came from the feedback of the homeowners wanting a little more security, a little more confidence, and most of the kind of tips for, “Hey, do you want to be on our tour,” came from the other homeowners. Absolutely. You know, lessons learned or could have, should have, would have. It's always a little growing thing. I think you're right. I think that this definitely comes from within. Alexa Clausen provides a look into working with other historical sites and societies for Adobe Home Tours. She highlights volunteers being essential to the business of providing tours for adobe homes. Alexa Clausen also gives input about her thoughts on collaborating with others. adobe homeowners ; docent guide ; homeowner ; North County ; Pauma Valley ; volunteers Appreciation for volunteers and docents ; Collaboration with other homeowners ; Expanding Adobe Home Tours ; Interest in adobe homes 33.1581° N, 117.3506° W 17 Carlsbad, California 1634 Keeping history interesting / Choosing adobe homes Peirce: Absolutely, and that's incredible, right? To really get that kind of support from people who see what the benefit is of highlighting this stuff, and just kind of doing that because it not only gets people to participate, but it brings their energy and their enthusiasm along with it. Speaking of enthusiasm, I know that there has been concern in some sectors of historians who are worried about people not being interested in history, people being ignorant of history. What efforts, if any, do you guys have to put in to get people interested in this part of history? Was there any sort of education that you had to put out? Did you have to teach people about this stuff? Did you find any struggles in getting people to come at any point? Or was this something that kind of once people heard about it, they were like “I'd like to learn more about that” or did you fight any struggles? Clausen: You know, we're always amazed at how easy this comes. I think being in the San Diego drivable region, that we're lucky because we are a county where we can still on a Sunday, get somewhere without a lot of trouble, and we do have the support of....like I mentioned, a lot of other historical societies have done garden tours, home tours, many cities have. And so people that love it, we find from our ticket holders, are a very strange combination with flat out “looky loos”: people that want to remodel their kitchen and they want to see others, as realtors are being a little more cautious about appointments and who comes in – for good reason, not to waste their time and security. So we have the people that just love to see other people's homes, and then we have just very hardcore interested – either mid-century modern architecture, maybe even students of architecture, and hobbyists – they are there for the architecture. We have a pretty neat little group of people interested in the garden now. Not every home is going to have a fancy garden – not by any means – but they're there primarily to see the garden and enjoy the garden. And then we do have history buffs ; like that's what I'm just labeling people that love the history. Then year by year, we've tried to pick a theme. LIke last year: “The Romance of the Rancho” where we just call it out that maybe some of this is California fantasy, you know, and the places were carved out of orange groves, they're close to the earth. In some cases, the adobe block was made right there, right on the acreage that was formed and bulldozed, lot of use of heavy beams, sort of that romance of the Rancho. So we've brought that up. In Pauma, we had a chance to talk about the Luiseños building the Pauma mission. We had that be one of our stops and made sure that we arranged to include that. A lot of people told us, “You know, we've always heard about Pauma Mission and we've never gone. It was a chance to go out there.” Um, so we always get a very different mix, but always a mix of people. The strong elements that we always bask in is the people interested in the architecture, and of course, in the history. But I think some of this is people come along, they will read our booklet or the docents will tell them something and we feel there's an appreciation for the historic preservation that leaves every tour. Peirce: Absolutely. It's fascinating, right? You really have to find your niche and it sounds like this program really has found it in just a wide spectrum of people who are trying to see what you guys are displaying out there. You brought up how not every home has a garden or anything like that. Is there any sort of prerequisite to being on a tour for any of these houses or is it literally just, “Hey, you're an adobe house, you can be on it.” Are you a little choosy? How does that specifically work where you decide what goes on each tour? Clausen: We do have some levels. We've had some very simple, honest homes and then we've had some just outrageously beautiful homes from adobe. In some cases we've had to turn people down because in the times they were built the driveways and the parking are impossible. There still are a lot of niches around the Escondido area where they were carved out of an old orange or avocado grove and the parking and the in and out is just out of the question. So that's always a consideration, although we've had some pretty narrow tight squeezes. Some homes, once we've talked to the homeowners, they say, you know, we're really not ready. We would like our home to be, uh, a little closer to ready. They often bought the adobe as a fixer upper, but as everyone knows, it takes time and money and planning, and we've had homeowners who've come back and say, you know, now we're ready. In some cases, we had to turn down people because they were just way too out of the way. I'll give you an example: last tour we had on the edge of Rancho Santa Fe the Osuna adobe, and then a home in Del Dios and then across Escondido, just behind the mall, two homes in that general area – that were drivable. I think we had a house offer way on Deer Springs Road. And so John – our webmaster – sometimes he would take and calculate the mileage, and then if you're 25 minutes one way and the only home out there, we would think that the homeowner would get gypped, you know, people would just say “Let's just go get lunch. We won't drive out there.” So we've tried to save some of the names and the addresses, so we could do a closer cluster of homes and hopefully we haven't missed out on anyone yet, and hanging onto names lets us be able to do that. We've had people who, as they've moved forward, say we just can't do this, you know, family circumstances or everyone just couldn't get on board. You know, a lot of things we expect could happen. We've gotten two thirds of the way and we've had people bail for very legitimate, understandable reasons. In a few cases, we've had previous homes on the tour again. We've had a few homes in that circumstance where an owner stepped up and a lot of times they've made changes. They've learned more about their home and it was enough years for our ticket holders. We have a lot of new ticket holders, so they're not saying, oh, we just saw that home. So yeah, I think there's been a combination of how we get there when the doors open. Peirce: Absolutely. So the individual houses, are the owners responsible for the histography of the tour for those places? Do you guys assist? How does that collaboration work? Clausen: In the last five years, I think I've done the majority of the history. In a lot of cases though, with new owners, sometimes we've gotten really lucky. They're walking their dog, they run into an old timer from the neighborhood, you know, someone who has lived there 40 years, and they'd come back as we're developing the history of their home, or they'd get a lead: a phone number of someone who knew who still own the home. So we've had a combination. I'd say maybe I do easily 70 to 75% of the research, and then 25% comes in from a lot of odd places and on occasion the homeowner themselves. So yeah, I think I've been doing most of it. For the internal side of it, the docent guide, then we lean on the homeowner for their remodel or what they were told about the remodel. If they have a newer kitchen maybe put in in the late eighties – they were told about it by the realtor – the docent on the kitchen stop will let people know what they're looking at. I'd say I've done a good portion of the research. Alexa Clausen talks about how she keeps the history of the tours interesting while catering to different audiences with different levels of knowledge on adobe homes. She also talks about the process of choosing adobe homes which they use for tours. Del Dios ; historic preservation ; Osuna Adobe ; Pauma Mission ; Rancho Alexa Clausen heading adobe tours ; Audience ; Choosing adobe homes for tours ; Interest in adobe tours ; Keeping the history interesting 33.3034° N, 116.9814° W 17 Pauma Valley 2252 Gathering Information / Adobe Home Conditions Peirce: Awesome. Has that been a struggle as well, given that some of these houses - I don't wanna say they're not important, right? They are important, they're historical in their own way. But it’s not like Greta Garbo lived there ; they're just regular homes in Escondido. Has that been difficult to gather that information? Clausen: You know, I've been stuck on homes for variety of reasons. Sometimes what happens is, let's say the homeowner had the adobe built for themselves and they worked the rest of their career at a conveyor belt as an engineer and retired, and perhaps their spouse was a schoolteacher and, you know, very wonderful everyday people. When we actually go look at the house, we generally will start finding jewels on some of the architecture. I think we've been pretty fortunate to have builders who have included architecture to keep the story going. This will be the treatment of the open beams or the fireplaces. Very often, we've had wonderful surviving fireplaces that were not remodeled ; they're still there. We've had homes where the windows were yet not removed ; they were still the old aluminum encasement crank windows, really neat, like ribbon style. It would even be the placement of arches, you know, opening the arch of one room into the next. The unbelievable plate glass windows from floor to ceiling, capturing a style that is brought in from the craftsman era – Cliff May, who has been considered the father of the ranch house style that became mid-century and popularized – how they took the sense of bringing the outdoor to the edge of the indoor. The adobe builders in the mid-century – we’ve found the Weir brothers and others – they will do that plate glass window with the view, right from the bottom, right to the edge of the eaves with phenomenal views, taking advantage and placing the home on that view. Without a doubt, the architecture will jump in and take over. Funky chimney treatments, little touches like a little hut, an opening to put in firewood, right by the fireplace treatment of the mantle or the hearth. Maybe there's some amber inserted glass that's still from the original ; once in a while, even the lighting fixtures. So, many homes where the owner isn't recognized as such as a fantastic story, usually the architecture jumps right in ; there's something that has survived the floor treatment. We have homes with original flagstone, original tile, you know, goes on and on. So from room to room, as we're giving the tours and highlighting these things, we can keep the audience, the visitor very interested. And that's usually very rewarding to know that these original features are still there. Peirce: Absolutely. Have you had, has there been a home that was just completely original or do they all need work at some point? Clausen: Well, we have had a few that had a remarkable amount of original features left, and that usually gets us going pretty good. Now of course, I think the thing that happens to most houses is the kitchens need updating very badly, and often the bathrooms. But we have homes where even there's been extensive remodeling, we still recognize – I'll just use Weir for example because they're so well-known – some of the weird features are cabinet treatments, maybe even the lintels on the window trim, possibly the addition of a certain shape of a breakfast nook. So, we almost always see these features survive. We haven't really had homes that were entirely gutted. We've had some pretty good luck. Peirce: That's amazing. I mean, just thinking about how homes are now and people just rip them up and then build them back up.... Clausen: They do, and some of us don't even like to watch those shows where they come into a midcentury modern home with a sledgehammer ; sometimes it's kind of creepy. Peirce: And a little upsetting, especially for someone who has been doing these kinds of tours, right? Looking at the big picture: do you feel that the tour has been successful in achieving the initial goals of what you were trying to do? Did it kind of mushroom beyond that? And if so, do you feel like there are things that you never thought were possible and things that you kind of wish you could have branched out into? Clausen: No, I think that those of us who started early on are honestly always amazed how this can sustain interest. And we're always thrilled for the feedback ; not everyone's happy on our tours, of course not. But we believe that the awareness of adobe construction and word of mouth and people wanting to see an adobe home, the inside of one, was well beyond our expectations. Absolutely. In terms of getting bigger, there's not enough of us. We think we will always have to limit our ticket sales. I mean, it'd be wonderful to run it two days. It'd be wonderful to raise more money, but there's just not enough of us. Really, I think raising people's understanding of what this construction is and what it was, and then historically its roots, you know, the adobe as construction material in California, I think we've done a pretty good job getting the message across and getting interest. Absolutely. We'd like to keep going. We hope we always have enough people and enough houses, but we think with the invitations to Carlsbad and maybe one day Rancho Santa Fe, and certainly Pauma again, Fallbrook has many adobe homes, Vista does....there are communities we still think we can keep going. Alexa Clausen discusses the process on gathering information about adobe home builds. She also mentions how they approach original homes and those that have been renovated. adobe ; architecture ; builders ; career ; original features Adobe builders ; Adobe home historical backgrounds ; Craftsman era ; Growing Adobe Home Tours 33.1192° N, 117.0864° W 17 Escondido, California 2735 Adobe Home Tours Legacy Peirce: Absolutely. My last question is, it feels like you've created something here in North County that has really kind of stood the test of time here in terms of creating something from scratch and creating something that people come back to. You have repeat customers, you have all these things. What do you hope your legacy is with Adobe Home Tours and where do you hope to see it moving forward? Clausen: Well, I think for most of us and, you know, I can't speak for everyone, but I think for most of us, the importance of having the homes preserved – this is something that's stopped in time. Of course any development is at risk, no matter what, and that the stronger we stay and the higher the appreciation is the less likely that someone will want to buy the home, and as the prices and their value increase, we feel there's a less likelihood that it would be demolished for yet a bigger investment. Although many have been. But we really, I think we'd all like to know that the core of many of these homes will remain and that they'll go another hundred years. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything about this program or anything about your career that you feel that we haven't touched on that you'd like to talk about before we start wrapping this up? Clausen: I think we covered it pretty well. And since we have a lot of programs that are a PDF on the Adobe Home Tour website, and Don keeps posting information – he's very good about answering questions people will forward to him and he'll forward to the rest of us so we can help. I think there's a lot out there now that was not available 10 years ago, so I think anyone that's interested has a check to jump on the website and dig around a little more and if needed con to contact any of us and the steering committee small, but we're out there to just keep promoting the adobe heritage. Peirce: Absolutely. And once again, that was adobehometours.com, correct? Clausen: That's correct. Yes. Peirce: Awesome. Just so just making sure we get that plug out there. Clausen: Okay. Right. Well, Jake, thank you so much. It's been great to talk to you and thanks for taking the interest. Peirce: I appreciate that, absolutely. I want to thank you very much from the bottom of my heart for taking this much time to talk about this. It's been fascinating. Alexa Clausen talks about where she hopes to see Adobe Home Tours in ten years. She also speaks on the importance of preserving homes because they allow visitors a look into the past. adobe ; appreciation ; homes ; information ; North County Legacy of Adobe Home Tours 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego Oral History Alexa Clausen is one of the founders of the Adobe Home Tours in North County San Diego, providing much of the historiography of each stop on their yearly tours. She was employed as a historian with California State Parks prior to her involvement with Adobe Home Tours. In this interview, Alexa speaks about how Adobe Home Tours started, the successes and difficulties with running a program like Adobe Home Tours, and how her background with California State Parks helped prepare her for her current role. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Jake Peirce: I&#039 ; m speaking today with Mrs. Alexa Clauson from the Adobe Home Tour -- among her many accomplishments -- and so I would like to start with just a little background information, if you don&#039 ; t mind. Where are you from? What got you to where you could start with the Adobe Home Tour? Alexa Clausen: Well, thank you. And I&#039 ; m happy to be here since we only have an hour, I&#039 ; ll try to do the mini version. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I grew up in Riverside, California. I got my advanced degrees in San Diego, so University of San Diego undergraduate, and then master&#039 ; s degree at San Diego State. At the same time that I was studying, my master&#039 ; s degree took me seven years because I was working full-time for California State Parks. So, I have a career with state parks and essentially doing local regional statewide and contextual related history for projects with state parks. So, when I retired in 2008, we had moved to Escondido in 1993, I think. And I had some friends in the history business, Lucy Burke, who was very active in historic preservation, always nagging me: When are you going to retire? You know, join us and, and all this stuff. So finally, when I did retire, I had our son -- I had him late in in life -- so he was still in elementary school, high school. So, I wasn&#039 ; t too involved, but I did have the sense that I want to give back to the community of history because when I was working professionally without internet and all this, I was visiting people who were saving history in boxes under their beds. You know, there was some places didn&#039 ; t have historical societies ; it was just mom and pop trying to save history. So, you know, I felt like I wanted to give back, and so I started volunteering and then, when my son was at St Mary&#039 ; s in elementary school, there&#039 ; s another student. His name was Sean McCoy. Well, his father, they had a little birthday party. I think they were in fifth grade, so this might go back to maybe 2004 or 2005, and he lived in Valley Center. The house was adobe, and I was really curious, but in their study there were all these houses on craftsman architecture. I looked at Tom, who&#039 ; s just a really gregarious, hardy guy that runs a landscaping business. He&#039 ; s Cal[ifornia] Poly[technic] [State] [University] educated and in landscaping. And I&#039 ; m like, no, it&#039 ; s not. It must be his wife. &lt ; laugh&gt ; So eventually at the swim party, the kids were busy and I said, &quot ; Hey, you know, Tom who&#039 ; s collection of books here, you&#039 ; re doing craftsmen?&quot ; Well, that unleashed Tom, and he found a soulmate in the interest. And as a few years went on, he always said there, &quot ; We have to do something. I go to Pasadena to the home tours and they&#039 ; re all rooted in Green and Green Architecture, which was known for the craftsmen, but we have our own, you know, handcrafted Adobes here.&quot ; And I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; [O]kay, Tom, let&#039 ; s do a tour.&quot ; And he claims that, you know, I kept pushing him to, oh, won&#039 ; t this be fun? And so the two of us kind of started Adobe Home Tour, but we were fortunate that the director Wendy Barker at the historical society wanted to go ahead and take our little idea under her wing. They had been doing garden tours, so they were familiar with parking and talking to homeowners, so we really had a jump there and we were lucky. And of course with the insurance that the Escondido History Center was all behind us. And our very first brochure was a front-to-back 8.5&quot ; x11&quot ; piece of paper off a copier, and that&#039 ; s kind of where it started. Peirce: Well, you have to start somewhere, right? Clausen: Yeah. It&#039 ; s funny, and of course I was thinking, &quot ; [O]h, he&#039 ; ll get over it.&quot ; You know, this is one year we had maybe 60 people come and it was word of mouth, mainly his friends and the historical society, people and friends of the homeowners, so it was really grassroots or mom and pop, whatever you want to call it. And our last tour we sold out at 500 tickets. Peirce: Wow. Clausen: Yeah. So that was the route. I came here through my training, I don&#039 ; t own an adobe home and it was really a feeling to give back to history essentially. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. Going back to your previous stops in your career with the California State Parks, was this something that was kind of in the same realm of what you were doing? Looking at architecture and looking at stuff like that and giving tours, or did you do something different while you were there? Clausen: You know, it really wasn&#039 ; t. The historic preservation and the architecture was handled mainly by specialists, and a lot of that was rooted in the state office of historic preservation, which was like a cousin branch of State Parks and the very highly trained historians specializing in architecture. So, I was really weak and had to do a catch up self-trained. All of my projects were budget driven. For example, if they, maybe the volunteers of the Rangers wanted to do a new booklet for a visitor center and it had a historical element in it, they would budget for hours for that. Or if there&#039 ; s a general plan, they needed a historian to do the cultural. So a lot of my jobs were just skipping around and providing research and history for whatever was budgeted and needed. And generally, if there was like an architectural survey, they were contracted out by specialist, or the state office would contract. So, during my career, for example, they did a thematic statewide survey of the Civilian Conservation Corps buildings that were still in state parks. Now they took their cue from the feds who were doing a survey in national parks and in the forest service, but again, that was handled by specialists. So, you know, while we would exchange, read material, go to the same conferences, it is a specialty that I&#039 ; m probably not the best at, but I do provide that research for Adobe Home Tour. So, it was a different kind of specialty, yeah. Peirce: Absolutely. It sounds more like you were -- in your role with the state parks -- you were more of a jack of all trades rather than a master of specifically architecture in that field. Clausen: Oh, absolutely, and in time they umbrellaed all that under cultural resources management and it was the archeologist and the historians and sometimes the landscape architects depending on the project. Peirce: Absolutely. Given that Tom seemed to be your partner in crime in the beginning of this adventure, --and he seemed to have more of the specific knowledge when it came to the adobe tours, based on what you&#039 ; re saying -- what would you say that was your biggest contribution to the beginning of it? Was it the organization? Was it your specific knowledge of how to provide background information? What would you say was your biggest contribution in the beginning? Clausen: Well, actually, I think Tom felt like I was just the cheerleader. &lt ; laugh&gt ; But, you know, I think it helped Tom have the confidence. With his career running a landscape business, he wasn&#039 ; t as free to do some things, and I think he always saw me as a little bit of the conduit to the history community. He&#039 ; s second generation -- grew up in Escondido through his business and his family -- they know every nook and cranny in the city, but Tom I think felt like I was the person that can talk to the historical society and get that connection. And then when it came to maybe talking to some families about the history of their homes -- although Wendy did a lot of it in the beginning -- in time, I took over all of that as eventually she took another job, but, you know, they had the historical society to run. I think Tom just really needed someone who talked a little more of the language to keep connected with the historical society and the history side of it. That&#039 ; s my take, if you ever tape Tom, maybe he&#039 ; ll have a different, &lt ; laugh&gt ; a different take on it. Peirce: &lt ; laugh&gt ; No, that&#039 ; s absolutely fair. That takes me into something else I kind of wanted to explore with you if don&#039 ; t mind. I&#039 ; m very interested in how you and Wendy and Tom and everybody else who was involved -- especially in the beginning -- how you managed to convince people to take part in this project. Because like you said, a lot of these people, these aren&#039 ; t just like &quot ; Oh, I own this random home that is just sitting out here for display.&quot ; This is where people live and work and raise their families. How did you manage to convince people to take part in what you were trying to achieve? Especially in the beginning. Clausen: You know, I haven&#039 ; t thought about it. Some of it was Tom&#039 ; s personal contacts and he knows people who know people and he knocked on doors, and then Wendy at the historical society, they also knew people who had adobe homes and was literally making lists, like, &quot ; Should we call this one? Should we call that one?&quot ; but I have to wonder now that you brought it up if the timing was right. Garden tours were becoming very popular at the time. They were fundraisers for not just historical societies, but you know, maybe natural garden clubs. I think garden clubs maybe had a longer history of that, but history house tours were becoming popular at the time. I think a lot of that starts going backwards to the US bicentennial, where historic preservation was taking off, and I have to wonder if people who buy adobe homes sort of needed a validation. Recently he had a potluck, and I ran into a lady who said, &quot ; My friends tell me you&#039 ; re crazy to have bought this home. You know, why would you live in this mud home?&quot ; &lt ; laugh&gt ; so maybe there&#039 ; s just a little twinkle of wanting the validation. You know, I&#039 ; m really taking a guess at this ; I hadn&#039 ; t really thought about it. But I do think people had the confidence --the historical society had been doing an annual home tour and then the old neighborhood in downtown Escondido, they started doing a Mother&#039 ; s Day home tour -- so the idea of a home tour maybe wasn&#039 ; t as foreign had we been maybe one of the first to ever do this in Escondido. I think those two projects really made people aware and it wasn&#039 ; t just so scary that other people were opening their houses. In the old neighborhood after COVID, it&#039 ; ll be the first time in a few years, and they will do another Mother&#039 ; s Day home tour, and I think they&#039 ; re on their like 25th anniversary. And the historical society, they partnered with that, so they had the experience also and word of mouth that this isn&#039 ; t kind of some creepy people knocking on the door saying, &quot ; Whoa, you know, what you can do is clean up your house and let people in.&quot ; So, I really didn&#039 ; t think about it and it&#039 ; s not scientific by any manner, but I think there is an opening and I find that Adobe Home Tours love the validation. They love to know that other people, once they&#039 ; ve seen their house, they get it. They really think it&#039 ; s something special. That&#039 ; s just my take on it. Peirce: Absolutely. I mean, that makes complete sense. One question I did have as well: was there any sort of impetus? Was this just organic? You just happened to bring this up and it just kind of grew up? Or was there any sort of given that some people want that validation, right? A lot of people may not want to live in this kind of home. Was there any sort of preservation or were these houses being torn down or was there any sort of event like that that was kind of like, &quot ; Man, maybe we should foster some sort of appreciation within the region to make sure that we keep this history alive a little bit.&quot ; ? Clausen: You know, I think that became one of our causes or mantras or whatever is as we backed into this -- like just a couple of mom and pop &lt ; laugh&gt ; people with no experience but some dumb luck and some decent connections -- is that as these homes aged, and of course, in the history of a lot of the homes, the midcentury, the builders and the real estate developers, they picked out, we call it &#039 ; cherry picked&#039 ; the lots. You could go into orange groves and carve out incredible views -- and many of the adobe homes have incredible views -- and I believe that before property values really started to skyrocket that they were at risk because once you have an incredible view, then you know, we came the era of McMansions. This is happening in cities everywhere: Los Angeles and San Francisco are some of the worst cases where the beautiful Spanish revival homes are gone. They&#039 ; re bulldozed for these -- you know, it&#039 ; s probably not polite to call McMansions ; someone coined that phrase for overbloated size of houses with great views. I think we all, the core of us that worked on this had the feeling that they were at risk. The other timing of this is many homes are not eligible for Mills Act and historic preservation review unless they&#039 ; ve reached 50 years old. Now, many of the adobes that were in the midcentury revival, the boom that started with the edges of Longview Acres and up and down here in the Via Rancho Parkway area around Felicita Park, Adobe homes were starting to be built in the late forties and into the fifties. If the home had not reached 50 years old, it was not eligible for review as a candidate for a higher level of putting out on a register for review and protection. There&#039 ; s no guarantee, but I think that the age started working for us as these homes were turning fifty and the appreciation with the old neighborhood and appreciation everywhere was starting to grow and the concern for being bulldozed. So it&#039 ; s almost like you had a little bit of a perfect storm coming in for the recognition of an adobe home, and they did stop construction by state law in the eighties. So, then another one of our &quot ; Gee, you, you&#039 ; re not going to see these again. You have a chance to really see something special.&quot ; Peirce: Was there a reason that they stopped the construction at that point? Was it just not feasible for like a, what is it, like an earthquake code or something like that? Clausen: Well, I talked to several builders. George Patterson when he was living and then Mike Burton, whose father and grandfather -- Hiram Smith his grandfather and then Don Burton his father -- they had no concerns about earthquakes. They were using a lot of rebar and the adobe block by that time had added a petroleum-based product developed in the late thirties and through the war time, so adobe block now was solid construction. I was told it was all about thermal and insulation. Both builders said it was an argument with the state of California with, I don&#039 ; t know, engineering approval people that went down to the county, that an adobe will take in thermal heating, you know, it takes three days to warm up and, you know, on and on, and they refused to approve adobe construction based on that. The other thing the builder said is that the labor became too costly ; you had labor, construction workers still willing up to a certain time to take and build these, you know, carry these blocks and do this kind of labor. It was easier to get a job somewhere else, and it didn&#039 ; t, you know, literally break your back. So between the rise of cost of labor -- and then in Escondido, the adobe block yard went out of business ; the blocks now had to be shipped from Fresno or elsewhere -- and it became just too costly to build. So, it was all those things. Peirce: Yeah. That makes sense. You know, it tends to go when things become cost prohibitive, it definitely will stop people in their tracks and in terms of doing that kind of stuff. Clausen: Right. So that ended adobe construction in California, because of course there still is adobe construction in New Mexico, Arizona, and globally, for that matter, you know, worldwide. The adobe is still a popular way to build a cheap way if you have the labor. Peirce: Yeah, absolutely. Seeing that this isn&#039 ; t the only place where Adobe houses were built -- and are built even to this day -- as you guys kind of built this program and as it continued to grow, was there any sort of view of trying to expand to a larger area or working with other tours if they existed in places like New Mexico, to try and collaborate in any way? Or was this a very grassroots, &quot ; We&#039 ; re sticking where we are and just kind of making this grow naturally where it is?&quot ; Clausen: Well, I think we would&#039 ; ve loved to become a bigger, wider organization, but it all comes down to volunteers. And as you know, a lot of this, unless you&#039 ; re a paid staff putting on something like this-- Although we were thrilled: we had a tour in Pauma Valley a few years ago, we&#039 ; ve been invited to work with Valley Center Historical Society ; there&#039 ; s a number of adobes there. We were also invited through Dominic Calarco who supervises the park system in Carlsbad ; they would like to feature Leo Carillo and find some adobe homeowners there. So, we do have an interest, very North County interested people, and we&#039 ; d like to do that, and then it keeps it from being boring Escondido ; not boring, but, you know, you do sort of run out of homes or people that are willing. We do have bigger interest, and we know that people have traveled from Los Angeles and from other places to come and see the homes and be on the tour. In an ideal world? Yeah, wouldn&#039 ; t it be neat to have this grand old, famous tour? You know, some cities do -- the Palm Springs mid-century modern tour is just crazy famous, the Pasadena tours are -- but we&#039 ; re restricted now by just a small group of volunteers. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, it can be difficult even with that outside interest when you don&#039 ; t have the facility to make it happen, whether it&#039 ; s personnel or whatever. There&#039 ; s always a friction, there&#039 ; s always that rub that kind of keeps you from doing more, even if there&#039 ; s the interest. Did you take anything from other tours? Did you learn from them? Or did you go, &quot ; We want to do something different. We want to kind of stick to our own program here?&quot ; Clausen: You know, the way I think this evolved, with a number of our Adobe homeowners haved jumped in after their home was on the tour to take a role and to help out. And so, for example, our current webmaster, Don, he took over the website. Intense interest in adobe, and really likes to post a lot of stuff, even adobe homes for sale. And then we had a lady -- Mary Del May -- she had taken over for Wendy in 2015 I want to say, I&#039 ; ll have to look it up, and professionalized it, and Tom ; all of them have been on other home tours. So, I think what they brought to the table was things they liked, like, &quot ; Gee, you know, it was nice when we had a booklet, a full booklet and, you know, we could cut costs by having sponsor pages. That&#039 ; ll help the printing if we do a bigger booklet.&quot ; So, our homeowners who jumped in, I think they did bring experience from things they liked going on other tours. Then as we planned this, I think some things from other tours come in like don&#039 ; t let people stand too long. &quot ; Oh, we were in Tucson. We had to wait 45 minutes, but they sold cocktails.&quot ; &lt ; laugh&gt ; We&#039 ; re like, oh, we can&#039 ; t sell cocktails, but you know, we do have these, yeah. I think that everyone who has participated brings what they like, and they don&#039 ; t like, suggestions, they work, they don&#039 ; t, we&#039 ; ve tried some things. So yeah, I&#039 ; d say that we have benefited from other tours. Peirce: And it also sounds like you&#039 ; ve benefited from, as you&#039 ; ve done this program, collaborating with some of the people that have owned these homes, right? Like you said earlier-- Clausen: Oh, absolutely. Peirce: It sounds like that&#039 ; s really been honestly, and correct me if I&#039 ; m wrong, kind of the heart of the program as it&#039 ; s moved forward. Clausen: It really was helpful because in order to invite and ask people &quot ; Would you have your home on the tour?&quot ; They&#039 ; re shaking in their boots and to have other homeowners say, look, here&#039 ; s some information, which they&#039 ; ve developed a little &quot ; Hello, homeowner, potential homeowner. This is what we did, little hit lists of this is what happens.&quot ; And then we also developed a security docent guide and docent stations. And that came out of the feedback from the homeowners to pace our volunteers throughout the home and allow people not to wander through on their own, but in groups as a group tour. And a lot of this came from the feedback of the homeowners wanting a little more security, a little more confidence, and most of the kind of tips for, &quot ; Hey, do you want to be on our tour,&quot ; came from the other homeowners. Absolutely. You know, lessons learned or could have, should have, would have. It&#039 ; s always a little growing thing. I think you&#039 ; re right. I think that this definitely comes from within. Peirce: Absolutely, and that&#039 ; s incredible, right? To really get that kind of support from people who see what the benefit is of highlighting this stuff, and just kind of doing that because it not only gets people to participate, but it brings their energy and their enthusiasm along with it. Speaking of enthusiasm, I know that there has been concern in some sectors of historians who are worried about people not being interested in history, people being ignorant of history. What efforts, if any, do you guys have to put in to get people interested in this part of history? Was there any sort of education that you had to put out? Did you have to teach people about this stuff? Did you find any struggles in getting people to come at any point? Or was this something that kind of once people heard about it, they were like &quot ; I&#039 ; d like to learn more about that&quot ; or did you fight any struggles? Clausen: You know, we&#039 ; re always amazed at how easy this comes. I think being in the San Diego drivable region, that we&#039 ; re lucky because we are a county where we can still on a Sunday, get somewhere without a lot of trouble, and we do have the support of....like I mentioned, a lot of other historical societies have done garden tours, home tours, many cities have. And so people that love it, we find from our ticket holders, are a very strange combination with flat out &quot ; looky loos&quot ; : people that want to remodel their kitchen and they want to see others, as realtors are being a little more cautious about appointments and who comes in -- for good reason, not to waste their time and security. So we have the people that just love to see other people&#039 ; s homes, and then we have just very hardcore interested -- either mid-century modern architecture, maybe even students of architecture, and hobbyists -- they are there for the architecture. We have a pretty neat little group of people interested in the garden now. Not every home is going to have a fancy garden -- not by any means -- but they&#039 ; re there primarily to see the garden and enjoy the garden. And then we do have history buffs ; like that&#039 ; s what I&#039 ; m just labeling people that love the history. Then year by year, we&#039 ; ve tried to pick a theme. LIke last year: &quot ; The Romance of the Rancho&quot ; where we just call it out that maybe some of this is California fantasy, you know, and the places were carved out of orange groves, they&#039 ; re close to the earth. In some cases, the adobe block was made right there, right on the acreage that was formed and bulldozed, lot of use of heavy beams, sort of that romance of the Rancho. So we&#039 ; ve brought that up. In Pauma, we had a chance to talk about the Luiseños building the Pauma mission. We had that be one of our stops and made sure that we arranged to include that. A lot of people told us, &quot ; You know, we&#039 ; ve always heard about Pauma Mission and we&#039 ; ve never gone. It was a chance to go out there.&quot ; Um, so we always get a very different mix, but always a mix of people. The strong elements that we always bask in is the people interested in the architecture, and of course, in the history. But I think some of this is people come along, they will read our booklet or the docents will tell them something and we feel there&#039 ; s an appreciation for the historic preservation that leaves every tour. Peirce: Absolutely. It&#039 ; s fascinating, right? You really have to find your niche and it sounds like this program really has found it in just a wide spectrum of people who are trying to see what you guys are displaying out there. You brought up how not every home has a garden or anything like that. Is there any sort of prerequisite to being on a tour for any of these houses or is it literally just, &quot ; Hey, you&#039 ; re an adobe house, you can be on it.&quot ; Are you a little choosy? How does that specifically work where you decide what goes on each tour? Clausen: We do have some levels. We&#039 ; ve had some very simple, honest homes and then we&#039 ; ve had some just outrageously beautiful homes from adobe. In some cases we&#039 ; ve had to turn people down because in the times they were built the driveways and the parking are impossible. There still are a lot of niches around the Escondido area where they were carved out of an old orange or avocado grove and the parking and the in and out is just out of the question. So that&#039 ; s always a consideration, although we&#039 ; ve had some pretty narrow tight squeezes. Some homes, once we&#039 ; ve talked to the homeowners, they say, you know, we&#039 ; re really not ready. We would like our home to be, uh, a little closer to ready. They often bought the adobe as a fixer upper, but as everyone knows, it takes time and money and planning, and we&#039 ; ve had homeowners who&#039 ; ve come back and say, you know, now we&#039 ; re ready. In some cases, we had to turn down people because they were just way too out of the way. I&#039 ; ll give you an example: last tour we had on the edge of Rancho Santa Fe the Osuna adobe, and then a home in Del Dios and then across Escondido, just behind the mall, two homes in that general area -- that were drivable. I think we had a house offer way on Deer Springs Road. And so John -- our webmaster -- sometimes he would take and calculate the mileage, and then if you&#039 ; re 25 minutes one way and the only home out there, we would think that the homeowner would get gypped, you know, people would just say &quot ; Let&#039 ; s just go get lunch. We won&#039 ; t drive out there.&quot ; So we&#039 ; ve tried to save some of the names and the addresses, so we could do a closer cluster of homes and hopefully we haven&#039 ; t missed out on anyone yet, and hanging onto names lets us be able to do that. We&#039 ; ve had people who, as they&#039 ; ve moved forward, say we just can&#039 ; t do this, you know, family circumstances or everyone just couldn&#039 ; t get on board. You know, a lot of things we expect could happen. We&#039 ; ve gotten two thirds of the way and we&#039 ; ve had people bail for very legitimate, understandable reasons. In a few cases, we&#039 ; ve had previous homes on the tour again. We&#039 ; ve had a few homes in that circumstance where an owner stepped up and a lot of times they&#039 ; ve made changes. They&#039 ; ve learned more about their home and it was enough years for our ticket holders. We have a lot of new ticket holders, so they&#039 ; re not saying, oh, we just saw that home. So yeah, I think there&#039 ; s been a combination of how we get there when the doors open. Peirce: Absolutely. So the individual houses, are the owners responsible for the histography of the tour for those places? Do you guys assist? How does that collaboration work? Clausen: In the last five years, I think I&#039 ; ve done the majority of the history. In a lot of cases though, with new owners, sometimes we&#039 ; ve gotten really lucky. They&#039 ; re walking their dog, they run into an old timer from the neighborhood, you know, someone who has lived there 40 years, and they&#039 ; d come back as we&#039 ; re developing the history of their home, or they&#039 ; d get a lead: a phone number of someone who knew who still own the home. So we&#039 ; ve had a combination. I&#039 ; d say maybe I do easily 70 to 75% of the research, and then 25% comes in from a lot of odd places and on occasion the homeowner themselves. So yeah, I think I&#039 ; ve been doing most of it. For the internal side of it, the docent guide, then we lean on the homeowner for their remodel or what they were told about the remodel. If they have a newer kitchen maybe put in in the late eighties -- they were told about it by the realtor -- the docent on the kitchen stop will let people know what they&#039 ; re looking at. I&#039 ; d say I&#039 ; ve done a good portion of the research. Peirce: Awesome. Has that been a struggle as well, given that some of these houses - I don&#039 ; t wanna say they&#039 ; re not important, right? They are important, they&#039 ; re historical in their own way. But it&#039 ; s not like Greta Garbo lived there ; they&#039 ; re just regular homes in Escondido. Has that been difficult to gather that information? Clausen: You know, I&#039 ; ve been stuck on homes for variety of reasons. Sometimes what happens is, let&#039 ; s say the homeowner had the adobe built for themselves and they worked the rest of their career at a conveyor belt as an engineer and retired, and perhaps their spouse was a schoolteacher and, you know, very wonderful everyday people. When we actually go look at the house, we generally will start finding jewels on some of the architecture. I think we&#039 ; ve been pretty fortunate to have builders who have included architecture to keep the story going. This will be the treatment of the open beams or the fireplaces. Very often, we&#039 ; ve had wonderful surviving fireplaces that were not remodeled ; they&#039 ; re still there. We&#039 ; ve had homes where the windows were yet not removed ; they were still the old aluminum encasement crank windows, really neat, like ribbon style. It would even be the placement of arches, you know, opening the arch of one room into the next. The unbelievable plate glass windows from floor to ceiling, capturing a style that is brought in from the craftsman era -- Cliff May, who has been considered the father of the ranch house style that became mid-century and popularized -- how they took the sense of bringing the outdoor to the edge of the indoor. The adobe builders in the mid-century -- we&#039 ; ve found the Weir brothers and others -- they will do that plate glass window with the view, right from the bottom, right to the edge of the eaves with phenomenal views, taking advantage and placing the home on that view. Without a doubt, the architecture will jump in and take over. Funky chimney treatments, little touches like a little hut, an opening to put in firewood, right by the fireplace treatment of the mantle or the hearth. Maybe there&#039 ; s some amber inserted glass that&#039 ; s still from the original ; once in a while, even the lighting fixtures. So, many homes where the owner isn&#039 ; t recognized as such as a fantastic story, usually the architecture jumps right in ; there&#039 ; s something that has survived the floor treatment. We have homes with original flagstone, original tile, you know, goes on and on. So from room to room, as we&#039 ; re giving the tours and highlighting these things, we can keep the audience, the visitor very interested. And that&#039 ; s usually very rewarding to know that these original features are still there. Peirce: Absolutely. Have you had, has there been a home that was just completely original or do they all need work at some point? Clausen: Well, we have had a few that had a remarkable amount of original features left, and that usually gets us going pretty good. Now of course, I think the thing that happens to most houses is the kitchens need updating very badly, and often the bathrooms. But we have homes where even there&#039 ; s been extensive remodeling, we still recognize -- I&#039 ; ll just use Weir for example because they&#039 ; re so well-known -- some of the weird features are cabinet treatments, maybe even the lintels on the window trim, possibly the addition of a certain shape of a breakfast nook. So, we almost always see these features survive. We haven&#039 ; t really had homes that were entirely gutted. We&#039 ; ve had some pretty good luck. Peirce: That&#039 ; s amazing. I mean, just thinking about how homes are now and people just rip them up and then build them back up.... Clausen: They do, and some of us don&#039 ; t even like to watch those shows where they come into a midcentury modern home with a sledgehammer ; sometimes it&#039 ; s kind of creepy. Peirce: And a little upsetting, especially for someone who has been doing these kinds of tours, right? Looking at the big picture: do you feel that the tour has been successful in achieving the initial goals of what you were trying to do? Did it kind of mushroom beyond that? And if so, do you feel like there are things that you never thought were possible and things that you kind of wish you could have branched out into? Clausen: No, I think that those of us who started early on are honestly always amazed how this can sustain interest. And we&#039 ; re always thrilled for the feedback ; not everyone&#039 ; s happy on our tours, of course not. But we believe that the awareness of adobe construction and word of mouth and people wanting to see an adobe home, the inside of one, was well beyond our expectations. Absolutely. In terms of getting bigger, there&#039 ; s not enough of us. We think we will always have to limit our ticket sales. I mean, it&#039 ; d be wonderful to run it two days. It&#039 ; d be wonderful to raise more money, but there&#039 ; s just not enough of us. Really, I think raising people&#039 ; s understanding of what this construction is and what it was, and then historically its roots, you know, the adobe as construction material in California, I think we&#039 ; ve done a pretty good job getting the message across and getting interest. Absolutely. We&#039 ; d like to keep going. We hope we always have enough people and enough houses, but we think with the invitations to Carlsbad and maybe one day Rancho Santa Fe, and certainly Pauma again, Fallbrook has many adobe homes, Vista does....there are communities we still think we can keep going. Peirce: Absolutely. My last question is, it feels like you&#039 ; ve created something here in North County that has really kind of stood the test of time here in terms of creating something from scratch and creating something that people come back to. You have repeat customers, you have all these things. What do you hope your legacy is with Adobe Home Tours and where do you hope to see it moving forward? Clausen: Well, I think for most of us and, you know, I can&#039 ; t speak for everyone, but I think for most of us, the importance of having the homes preserved -- this is something that&#039 ; s stopped in time. Of course any development is at risk, no matter what, and that the stronger we stay and the higher the appreciation is the less likely that someone will want to buy the home, and as the prices and their value increase, we feel there&#039 ; s a less likelihood that it would be demolished for yet a bigger investment. Although many have been. But we really, I think we&#039 ; d all like to know that the core of many of these homes will remain and that they&#039 ; ll go another hundred years. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything about this program or anything about your career that you feel that we haven&#039 ; t touched on that you&#039 ; d like to talk about before we start wrapping this up? Clausen: I think we covered it pretty well. And since we have a lot of programs that are a PDF on the Adobe Home Tour website, and Don keeps posting information -- he&#039 ; s very good about answering questions people will forward to him and he&#039 ; ll forward to the rest of us so we can help. I think there&#039 ; s a lot out there now that was not available 10 years ago, so I think anyone that&#039 ; s interested has a check to jump on the website and dig around a little more and if needed con to contact any of us and the steering committee small, but we&#039 ; re out there to just keep promoting the adobe heritage. Peirce: Absolutely. And once again, that was adobehometours.com, correct? Clausen: That&#039 ; s correct. Yes. Peirce: Awesome. Just so just making sure we get that plug out there. Clausen: Okay. Right. Well, Jake, thank you so much. It&#039 ; s been great to talk to you and thanks for taking the interest. Peirce: I appreciate that, absolutely. I want to thank you very much from the bottom of my heart for taking this much time to talk about this. It&#039 ; s been fascinating. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ClausenAlexa_PeirceJake_2022-04-12.xml ClausenAlexa_PeirceJake_2022-04-12.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clausen, Alexa. Interview April 12, 2022 Description An account of the resource Alexa Clausen is one of the founders of the Adobe Home Tours in North County San Diego, providing much of the historiography of each stop on their yearly tours. She was employed as a historian with California State Parks prior to her involvement with Adobe Home Tours. In this interview, Alexa speaks about how Adobe Home Tours started, the successes and difficulties with running a program like Adobe Home Tours, and how her background with California State Parks helped prepare her for her current role. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-15 Subject The topic of the resource Adobe houses Historic buildings -- Conservation and restoration. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-12 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Alexa Clausen Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alexa Clausen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jacob Peirce Community history History Department internship Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c59f8053d23c1136aee09f68020277ec.pdf 6cb14bd4ab0132b818c6e2422620a6fc PDF Text Text ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Jake Peirce: I'm speaking today with Mrs. Alexa Clauson from the Adobe Home Tour – among her many accomplishments – and so I would like to start with just a little background information, if you don't mind. Where are you from? What got you to where you could start with the Adobe Home Tour? Alexa Clausen: Well, thank you. And I'm happy to be here since we only have an hour, I'll try to do the mini version. <affirmative> I grew up in Riverside, California. I got my advanced degrees in San Diego, so University of San Diego undergraduate, and then master's degree at San Diego State. At the same time that I was studying, my master's degree took me seven years because I was working full-time for California State Parks. So, I have a career with state parks and essentially doing local regional statewide and contextual related history for projects with state parks. So, when I retired in 2008, we had moved to Escondido in 1993, I think. And I had some friends in the history business, Lucy Burke, who was very active in historic preservation, always nagging me: When are you going to retire? You know, join us and, and all this stuff. So finally, when I did retire, I had our son – I had him late in in life – so he was still in elementary school, high school. So, I wasn't too involved, but I did have the sense that I want to give back to the community of history because when I was working professionally without internet and all this, I was visiting people who were saving history in boxes under their beds. You know, there was some places didn't have historical societies; it was just mom and pop trying to save history. So, you know, I felt like I wanted to give back, and so I started volunteering and then, when my son was at St Mary's in elementary school, there's another student. His name was Sean McCoy. Well, his father, they had a little birthday party. I think they were in fifth grade, so this might go back to maybe 2004 or 2005, and he lived in Valley Center. The house was adobe, and I was really curious, but in their study there were all these houses on craftsman architecture. I looked at Tom, who's just a really gregarious, hardy guy that runs a landscaping business. He's Cal[ifornia] Poly[technic] [State] [University] educated and in landscaping. And I'm like, no, it's not. It must be his wife. <laugh> So eventually at the swim party, the kids were busy and I said, “Hey, you know, Tom who's collection of books here, you're doing craftsmen?” Well, that unleashed Tom, and he found a soulmate in the interest. And as a few years went on, he always said there, “We have to do something. I go to Pasadena to the home tours and they're all rooted in Green and Green Architecture, which was known for the craftsmen, but we have our own, you know, handcrafted Adobes here.” And I'm like, “[O]kay, Tom, let's do a tour.” And he claims that, you know, I kept pushing him to, oh, won't this be fun? And so the two of us kind of started Adobe Home Tour, but we were fortunate that the director Wendy Barker at the historical society wanted to go ahead and take our little idea under her wing. They had been doing garden tours, so they were familiar with parking and talking to homeowners, so we really had a jump there and we were lucky. And of course with the insurance that the Escondido History Center was all behind us. And our very first brochure was a front-to-back 8.5”x11” piece of paper off a copier, and that's kind of where it started. Peirce: Well, you have to start somewhere, right? Clausen: Yeah. It's funny, and of course I was thinking, “[O]h, he'll get over it.” You know, this is one year we had maybe 60 people come and it was word of mouth, mainly his friends and the historical society, people and friends of the homeowners, so it was really grassroots or mom and pop, whatever you want to call it. And our last tour we sold out at 500 tickets. Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 1 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Peirce: Wow. Clausen: Yeah. So that was the route. I came here through my training, I don't own an adobe home and it was really a feeling to give back to history essentially. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. Going back to your previous stops in your career with the California State Parks, was this something that was kind of in the same realm of what you were doing? Looking at architecture and looking at stuff like that and giving tours, or did you do something different while you were there? Clausen: You know, it really wasn't. The historic preservation and the architecture was handled mainly by specialists, and a lot of that was rooted in the state office of historic preservation, which was like a cousin branch of State Parks and the very highly trained historians specializing in architecture. So, I was really weak and had to do a catch up self-trained. All of my projects were budget driven. For example, if they, maybe the volunteers of the Rangers wanted to do a new booklet for a visitor center and it had a historical element in it, they would budget for hours for that. Or if there's a general plan, they needed a historian to do the cultural. So a lot of my jobs were just skipping around and providing research and history for whatever was budgeted and needed. And generally, if there was like an architectural survey, they were contracted out by specialist, or the state office would contract. So, during my career, for example, they did a thematic statewide survey of the Civilian Conservation Corps buildings that were still in state parks. Now they took their cue from the feds who were doing a survey in national parks and in the forest service, but again, that was handled by specialists. So, you know, while we would exchange, read material, go to the same conferences, it is a specialty that I'm probably not the best at, but I do provide that research for Adobe Home Tour. So, it was a different kind of specialty, yeah. Peirce: Absolutely. It sounds more like you were – in your role with the state parks – you were more of a jack of all trades rather than a master of specifically architecture in that field. Clausen: Oh, absolutely, and in time they umbrellaed all that under cultural resources management and it was the archeologist and the historians and sometimes the landscape architects depending on the project. Peirce: Absolutely. Given that Tom seemed to be your partner in crime in the beginning of this adventure, –and he seemed to have more of the specific knowledge when it came to the adobe tours, based on what you're saying – what would you say that was your biggest contribution to the beginning of it? Was it the organization? Was it your specific knowledge of how to provide background information? What would you say was your biggest contribution in the beginning? Clausen: Well, actually, I think Tom felt like I was just the cheerleader. <laugh> But, you know, I think it helped Tom have the confidence. With his career running a landscape business, he wasn't as free to do some Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 2 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 things, and I think he always saw me as a little bit of the conduit to the history community. He's second generation – grew up in Escondido through his business and his family – they know every nook and cranny in the city, but Tom I think felt like I was the person that can talk to the historical society and get that connection. And then when it came to maybe talking to some families about the history of their homes – although Wendy did a lot of it in the beginning – in time, I took over all of that as eventually she took another job, but, you know, they had the historical society to run. I think Tom just really needed someone who talked a little more of the language to keep connected with the historical society and the history side of it. That's my take, if you ever tape Tom, maybe he'll have a different, <laugh> a different take on it. Peirce: <laugh> No, that's absolutely fair. That takes me into something else I kind of wanted to explore with you if don't mind. I'm very interested in how you and Wendy and Tom and everybody else who was involved – especially in the beginning – how you managed to convince people to take part in this project. Because like you said, a lot of these people, these aren't just like “Oh, I own this random home that is just sitting out here for display.” This is where people live and work and raise their families. How did you manage to convince people to take part in what you were trying to achieve? Especially in the beginning. Clausen: You know, I haven't thought about it. Some of it was Tom's personal contacts and he knows people who know people and he knocked on doors, and then Wendy at the historical society, they also knew people who had adobe homes and was literally making lists, like, “Should we call this one? Should we call that one?” but I have to wonder now that you brought it up if the timing was right. Garden tours were becoming very popular at the time. They were fundraisers for not just historical societies, but you know, maybe natural garden clubs. I think garden clubs maybe had a longer history of that, but history house tours were becoming popular at the time. I think a lot of that starts going backwards to the US bicentennial, where historic preservation was taking off, and I have to wonder if people who buy adobe homes sort of needed a validation. Recently he had a potluck, and I ran into a lady who said, “My friends tell me you're crazy to have bought this home. You know, why would you live in this mud home?” <laugh> so maybe there's just a little twinkle of wanting the validation. You know, I'm really taking a guess at this; I hadn't really thought about it. But I do think people had the confidence –the historical society had been doing an annual home tour and then the old neighborhood in downtown Escondido, they started doing a Mother's Day home tour – so the idea of a home tour maybe wasn't as foreign had we been maybe one of the first to ever do this in Escondido. I think those two projects really made people aware and it wasn't just so scary that other people were opening their houses. In the old neighborhood after COVID, it'll be the first time in a few years, and they will do another Mother's Day home tour, and I think they're on their like 25th anniversary. And the historical society, they partnered with that, so they had the experience also and word of mouth that this isn't kind of some creepy people knocking on the door saying, “Whoa, you know, what you can do is clean up your house and let people in.” So, I really didn't think about it and it's not scientific by any manner, but I think there is an opening and I find that Adobe Home Tours love the validation. They love to know that other people, once they've seen their house, they get it. They really think it's something special. That's just my take on it. Peirce: Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 3 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Absolutely. I mean, that makes complete sense. One question I did have as well: was there any sort of impetus? Was this just organic? You just happened to bring this up and it just kind of grew up? Or was there any sort of given that some people want that validation, right? A lot of people may not want to live in this kind of home. Was there any sort of preservation or were these houses being torn down or was there any sort of event like that that was kind of like, “Man, maybe we should foster some sort of appreciation within the region to make sure that we keep this history alive a little bit.”? Clausen: You know, I think that became one of our causes or mantras or whatever is as we backed into this – like just a couple of mom and pop <laugh> people with no experience but some dumb luck and some decent connections – is that as these homes aged, and of course, in the history of a lot of the homes, the midcentury, the builders and the real estate developers, they picked out, we call it ‘cherry picked’ the lots. You could go into orange groves and carve out incredible views – and many of the adobe homes have incredible views – and I believe that before property values really started to skyrocket that they were at risk because once you have an incredible view, then you know, we came the era of McMansions. This is happening in cities everywhere: Los Angeles and San Francisco are some of the worst cases where the beautiful Spanish revival homes are gone. They're bulldozed for these – you know, it's probably not polite to call McMansions; someone coined that phrase for overbloated size of houses with great views. I think we all, the core of us that worked on this had the feeling that they were at risk. The other timing of this is many homes are not eligible for Mills Act and historic preservation review unless they've reached 50 years old. Now, many of the adobes that were in the midcentury revival, the boom that started with the edges of Longview Acres and up and down here in the Via Rancho Parkway area around Felicita Park, Adobe homes were starting to be built in the late forties and into the fifties. If the home had not reached 50 years old, it was not eligible for review as a candidate for a higher level of putting out on a register for review and protection. There's no guarantee, but I think that the age started working for us as these homes were turning fifty and the appreciation with the old neighborhood and appreciation everywhere was starting to grow and the concern for being bulldozed. So it's almost like you had a little bit of a perfect storm coming in for the recognition of an adobe home, and they did stop construction by state law in the eighties. So, then another one of our “Gee, you, you're not going to see these again. You have a chance to really see something special.” Peirce: Was there a reason that they stopped the construction at that point? Was it just not feasible for like a, what is it, like an earthquake code or something like that? Clausen: Well, I talked to several builders. George Patterson when he was living and then Mike Burton, whose father and grandfather – Hiram Smith his grandfather and then Don Burton his father – they had no concerns about earthquakes. They were using a lot of rebar and the adobe block by that time had added a petroleum-based product developed in the late thirties and through the war time, so adobe block now was solid construction. I was told it was all about thermal and insulation. Both builders said it was an argument with the state of California with, I don't know, engineering approval people that went down to the county, that an adobe will take in thermal heating, you know, it takes three days to warm up and, you know, on and on, and they refused to approve adobe construction based on that. The other thing the builder said is that the labor became too costly; you had labor, construction workers still willing up to a certain time to take and build these, you know, carry these blocks and do this kind of labor. It was Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 4 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 easier to get a job somewhere else, and it didn't, you know, literally break your back. So between the rise of cost of labor – and then in Escondido, the adobe block yard went out of business; the blocks now had to be shipped from Fresno or elsewhere – and it became just too costly to build. So, it was all those things. Peirce: Yeah. That makes sense. You know, it tends to go when things become cost prohibitive, it definitely will stop people in their tracks and in terms of doing that kind of stuff. Clausen: Right. So that ended adobe construction in California, because of course there still is adobe construction in New Mexico, Arizona, and globally, for that matter, you know, worldwide. The adobe is still a popular way to build a cheap way if you have the labor. Peirce: Yeah, absolutely. Seeing that this isn't the only place where Adobe houses were built – and are built even to this day – as you guys kind of built this program and as it continued to grow, was there any sort of view of trying to expand to a larger area or working with other tours if they existed in places like New Mexico, to try and collaborate in any way? Or was this a very grassroots, “We’re sticking where we are and just kind of making this grow naturally where it is?” Clausen: Well, I think we would've loved to become a bigger, wider organization, but it all comes down to volunteers. And as you know, a lot of this, unless you're a paid staff putting on something like this-Although we were thrilled: we had a tour in Pauma Valley a few years ago, we've been invited to work with Valley Center Historical Society; there's a number of adobes there. We were also invited through Dominic Calarco who supervises the park system in Carlsbad; they would like to feature Leo Carillo and find some adobe homeowners there. So, we do have an interest, very North County interested people, and we'd like to do that, and then it keeps it from being boring Escondido; not boring, but, you know, you do sort of run out of homes or people that are willing. We do have bigger interest, and we know that people have traveled from Los Angeles and from other places to come and see the homes and be on the tour. In an ideal world? Yeah, wouldn’t it be neat to have this grand old, famous tour? You know, some cities do – the Palm Springs mid-century modern tour is just crazy famous, the Pasadena tours are – but we're restricted now by just a small group of volunteers. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, it can be difficult even with that outside interest when you don't have the facility to make it happen, whether it's personnel or whatever. There's always a friction, there's always that rub that kind of keeps you from doing more, even if there's the interest. Did you take anything from other tours? Did you learn from them? Or did you go, “We want to do something different. We want to kind of stick to our own program here?” Clausen: You know, the way I think this evolved, with a number of our Adobe homeowners haved jumped in after their home was on the tour to take a role and to help out. And so, for example, our current webmaster, Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 5 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Don, he took over the website. Intense interest in adobe, and really likes to post a lot of stuff, even adobe homes for sale. And then we had a lady – Mary Del May – she had taken over for Wendy in 2015 I want to say, I'll have to look it up, and professionalized it, and Tom; all of them have been on other home tours. So, I think what they brought to the table was things they liked, like, “Gee, you know, it was nice when we had a booklet, a full booklet and, you know, we could cut costs by having sponsor pages. That'll help the printing if we do a bigger booklet.” So, our homeowners who jumped in, I think they did bring experience from things they liked going on other tours. Then as we planned this, I think some things from other tours come in like don't let people stand too long. “Oh, we were in Tucson. We had to wait 45 minutes, but they sold cocktails.” <laugh> We're like, oh, we can't sell cocktails, but you know, we do have these, yeah. I think that everyone who has participated brings what they like, and they don't like, suggestions, they work, they don't, we've tried some things. So yeah, I'd say that we have benefited from other tours. Peirce: And it also sounds like you've benefited from, as you've done this program, collaborating with some of the people that have owned these homes, right? Like you said earlier-Clausen: Oh, absolutely. Peirce: It sounds like that's really been honestly, and correct me if I'm wrong, kind of the heart of the program as it's moved forward. Clausen: It really was helpful because in order to invite and ask people “Would you have your home on the tour?” They're shaking in their boots and to have other homeowners say, look, here's some information, which they've developed a little “Hello, homeowner, potential homeowner. This is what we did, little hit lists of this is what happens.” And then we also developed a security docent guide and docent stations. And that came out of the feedback from the homeowners to pace our volunteers throughout the home and allow people not to wander through on their own, but in groups as a group tour. And a lot of this came from the feedback of the homeowners wanting a little more security, a little more confidence, and most of the kind of tips for, “Hey, do you want to be on our tour,” came from the other homeowners. Absolutely. You know, lessons learned or could have, should have, would have. It's always a little growing thing. I think you're right. I think that this definitely comes from within. Peirce: Absolutely, and that's incredible, right? To really get that kind of support from people who see what the benefit is of highlighting this stuff, and just kind of doing that because it not only gets people to participate, but it brings their energy and their enthusiasm along with it. Speaking of enthusiasm, I know that there has been concern in some sectors of historians who are worried about people not being interested in history, people being ignorant of history. What efforts, if any, do you guys have to put in to get people interested in this part of history? Was there any sort of education that you had to put out? Did you have to teach people about this stuff? Did you find any struggles in getting people to come at any point? Or was this something that kind of once people heard about it, they were like “I'd like to learn more about that” or did you fight any struggles? Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 6 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Clausen: You know, we're always amazed at how easy this comes. I think being in the San Diego drivable region, that we're lucky because we are a county where we can still on a Sunday, get somewhere without a lot of trouble, and we do have the support of... like I mentioned, a lot of other historical societies have done garden tours, home tours, many cities have. And so people that love it, we find from our ticket holders, are a very strange combination with flat out “looky loos”: people that want to remodel their kitchen and they want to see others, as realtors are being a little more cautious about appointments and who comes in – for good reason, not to waste their time and security. So we have the people that just love to see other people's homes, and then we have just very hardcore interested – either mid-century modern architecture, maybe even students of architecture, and hobbyists – they are there for the architecture. We have a pretty neat little group of people interested in the garden now. Not every home is going to have a fancy garden – not by any means – but they're there primarily to see the garden and enjoy the garden. And then we do have history buffs; like that's what I'm just labeling people that love the history. Then year by year, we've tried to pick a theme. LIke last year: “The Romance of the Rancho” where we just call it out that maybe some of this is California fantasy, you know, and the places were carved out of orange groves, they're close to the earth. In some cases, the adobe block was made right there, right on the acreage that was formed and bulldozed, lot of use of heavy beams, sort of that romance of the Rancho. So we've brought that up. In Pauma, we had a chance to talk about the Luiseños building the Pauma mission. We had that be one of our stops and made sure that we arranged to include that. A lot of people told us, “You know, we've always heard about Pauma Mission and we've never gone. It was a chance to go out there.” Um, so we always get a very different mix, but always a mix of people. The strong elements that we always bask in is the people interested in the architecture, and of course, in the history. But I think some of this is people come along, they will read our booklet or the docents will tell them something and we feel there's an appreciation for the historic preservation that leaves every tour. Peirce: Absolutely. It's fascinating, right? You really have to find your niche and it sounds like this program really has found it in just a wide spectrum of people who are trying to see what you guys are displaying out there. You brought up how not every home has a garden or anything like that. Is there any sort of prerequisite to being on a tour for any of these houses or is it literally just, “Hey, you're an adobe house, you can be on it.” Are you a little choosy? How does that specifically work where you decide what goes on each tour? Clausen: We do have some levels. We've had some very simple, honest homes and then we've had some just outrageously beautiful homes from adobe. In some cases we've had to turn people down because in the times they were built the driveways and the parking are impossible. There still are a lot of niches around the Escondido area where they were carved out of an old orange or avocado grove and the parking and the in and out is just out of the question. So that's always a consideration, although we've had some pretty narrow tight squeezes. Some homes, once we've talked to the homeowners, they say, you know, we're really not ready. We would like our home to be, uh, a little closer to ready. They often bought the adobe as a fixer upper, but as everyone knows, it takes time and money and planning, and we've had homeowners who've come back and say, you know, now we're ready. In some cases, we had to turn down people because they were just way too out of the way. I'll give you an example: last tour we had on the edge of Rancho Santa Fe the Osuna adobe, and then a home in Del Dios and then across Escondido, just behind the mall, two homes in that general area – that were drivable. I think we had a Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 7 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 house offer way on Deer Springs Road. And so John – our webmaster – sometimes he would take and calculate the mileage, and then if you're 25 minutes one way and the only home out there, we would think that the homeowner would get gypped, you know, people would just say “Let's just go get lunch. We won't drive out there.” So we've tried to save some of the names and the addresses, so we could do a closer cluster of homes and hopefully we haven't missed out on anyone yet, and hanging onto names lets us be able to do that. We've had people who, as they've moved forward, say we just can't do this, you know, family circumstances or everyone just couldn't get on board. You know, a lot of things we expect could happen. We've gotten two thirds of the way and we've had people bail for very legitimate, understandable reasons. In a few cases, we've had previous homes on the tour again. We've had a few homes in that circumstance where an owner stepped up and a lot of times they've made changes. They've learned more about their home and it was enough years for our ticket holders. We have a lot of new ticket holders, so they're not saying, oh, we just saw that home. So yeah, I think there's been a combination of how we get there when the doors open. Peirce: Absolutely. So the individual houses, are the owners responsible for the histography of the tour for those places? Do you guys assist? How does that collaboration work? Clausen: In the last five years, I think I've done the majority of the history. In a lot of cases though, with new owners, sometimes we've gotten really lucky. They're walking their dog, they run into an old timer from the neighborhood, you know, someone who has lived there 40 years, and they'd come back as we're developing the history of their home, or they'd get a lead: a phone number of someone who knew who still own the home. So we've had a combination. I'd say maybe I do easily 70 to 75% of the research, and then 25% comes in from a lot of odd places and on occasion the homeowner themselves. So yeah, I think I've been doing most of it. For the internal side of it, the docent guide, then we lean on the homeowner for their remodel or what they were told about the remodel. If they have a newer kitchen maybe put in in the late eighties – they were told about it by the realtor – the docent on the kitchen stop will let people know what they're looking at. I'd say I've done a good portion of the research. Peirce: Awesome. Has that been a struggle as well, given that some of these houses - I don't wanna say they're not important, right? They are important, they're historical in their own way. But it’s not like Greta Garbo lived there; they're just regular homes in Escondido. Has that been difficult to gather that information? Clausen: You know, I've been stuck on homes for variety of reasons. Sometimes what happens is, let's say the homeowner had the adobe built for themselves and they worked the rest of their career at a conveyor belt as an engineer and retired, and perhaps their spouse was a schoolteacher and, you know, very wonderful everyday people. When we actually go look at the house, we generally will start finding jewels on some of the architecture. I think we've been pretty fortunate to have builders who have included architecture to keep the story going. This will be the treatment of the open beams or the fireplaces. Very often, we've had wonderful surviving fireplaces that were not remodeled; they're still there. We've had homes where the windows were yet not removed; they were still the old aluminum encasement crank windows, really neat, like ribbon style. It would even be the placement of arches, you Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 8 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 know, opening the arch of one room into the next. The unbelievable plate glass windows from floor to ceiling, capturing a style that is brought in from the craftsman era – Cliff May, who has been considered the father of the ranch house style that became mid-century and popularized – how they took the sense of bringing the outdoor to the edge of the indoor. The adobe builders in the mid-century – we’ve found the Weir brothers and others – they will do that plate glass window with the view, right from the bottom, right to the edge of the eaves with phenomenal views, taking advantage and placing the home on that view. Without a doubt, the architecture will jump in and take over. Funky chimney treatments, little touches like a little hut, an opening to put in firewood, right by the fireplace treatment of the mantle or the hearth. Maybe there's some amber inserted glass that's still from the original; once in a while, even the lighting fixtures. So, many homes where the owner isn't recognized as such as a fantastic story, usually the architecture jumps right in; there's something that has survived the floor treatment. We have homes with original flagstone, original tile, you know, goes on and on. So from room to room, as we're giving the tours and highlighting these things, we can keep the audience, the visitor very interested. And that's usually very rewarding to know that these original features are still there. Peirce: Absolutely. Have you had, has there been a home that was just completely original or do they all need work at some point? Clausen: Well, we have had a few that had a remarkable amount of original features left, and that usually gets us going pretty good. Now of course, I think the thing that happens to most houses is the kitchens need updating very badly, and often the bathrooms. But we have homes where even there's been extensive remodeling, we still recognize – I'll just use Weir for example because they're so well-known – some of the weird features are cabinet treatments, maybe even the lintels on the window trim, possibly the addition of a certain shape of a breakfast nook. So, we almost always see these features survive. We haven't really had homes that were entirely gutted. We've had some pretty good luck. Peirce: That's amazing. I mean, just thinking about how homes are now and people just rip them up and then build them back up.... Clausen: They do, and some of us don't even like to watch those shows where they come into a midcentury modern home with a sledgehammer; sometimes it's kind of creepy. Peirce: And a little upsetting, especially for someone who has been doing these kinds of tours, right? Looking at the big picture: do you feel that the tour has been successful in achieving the initial goals of what you were trying to do? Did it kind of mushroom beyond that? And if so, do you feel like there are things that you never thought were possible and things that you kind of wish you could have branched out into? Clausen: No, I think that those of us who started early on are honestly always amazed how this can sustain interest. And we're always thrilled for the feedback; not everyone's happy on our tours, of course not. Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 9 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 But we believe that the awareness of adobe construction and word of mouth and people wanting to see an adobe home, the inside of one, was well beyond our expectations. Absolutely. In terms of getting bigger, there's not enough of us. We think we will always have to limit our ticket sales. I mean, it'd be wonderful to run it two days. It'd be wonderful to raise more money, but there's just not enough of us. Really, I think raising people's understanding of what this construction is and what it was, and then historically its roots, you know, the adobe as construction material in California, I think we've done a pretty good job getting the message across and getting interest. Absolutely. We'd like to keep going. We hope we always have enough people and enough houses, but we think with the invitations to Carlsbad and maybe one day Rancho Santa Fe, and certainly Pauma again, Fallbrook has many adobe homes, Vista does... there are communities we still think we can keep going. Peirce: Absolutely. My last question is, it feels like you've created something here in North County that has really kind of stood the test of time here in terms of creating something from scratch and creating something that people come back to. You have repeat customers, you have all these things. What do you hope your legacy is with Adobe Home Tours and where do you hope to see it moving forward? Clausen: Well, I think for most of us and, you know, I can't speak for everyone, but I think for most of us, the importance of having the homes preserved – this is something that's stopped in time. Of course any development is at risk, no matter what, and that the stronger we stay and the higher the appreciation is the less likely that someone will want to buy the home, and as the prices and their value increase, we feel there's a less likelihood that it would be demolished for yet a bigger investment. Although many have been. But we really, I think we'd all like to know that the core of many of these homes will remain and that they'll go another hundred years. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything about this program or anything about your career that you feel that we haven't touched on that you'd like to talk about before we start wrapping this up? Clausen: I think we covered it pretty well. And since we have a lot of programs that are a PDF on the Adobe Home Tour website, and Don keeps posting information – he's very good about answering questions people will forward to him and he'll forward to the rest of us so we can help. I think there's a lot out there now that was not available 10 years ago, so I think anyone that's interested has a check to jump on the website and dig around a little more and if needed con to contact any of us and the steering committee small, but we're out there to just keep promoting the adobe heritage. Peirce: Absolutely. And once again, that was adobehometours.com, correct? Clausen: That's correct. Yes. Peirce: Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 10 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Awesome. Just so just making sure we get that plug out there. Clausen: Okay. Right. Well, Jake, thank you so much. It's been great to talk to you and thanks for taking the interest. Peirce: I appreciate that, absolutely. I want to thank you very much from the bottom of my heart for taking this much time to talk about this. It's been fascinating. Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 11 2022-05-13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clausen, Alexa. Interview transcript. April 12, 2022. Description An account of the resource Alexa Clausen is one of the founders of the Adobe Home Tours in North County San Diego, providing much of the historiography of each stop on their yearly tours. She was employed as a historian with California State Parks prior to her involvement with Adobe Home Tours. In this interview, Alexa speaks about how Adobe Home Tours started, the successes and difficulties with running a program like Adobe Home Tours, and how her background with California State Parks helped prepare her for her current role. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alexa Clausen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jacob Peirce Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-12 Subject The topic of the resource Adobe houses Historic buildings -- Conservation and restoration Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) 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Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kevin Cole OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ColeKevin_WattsJill_2012-11-28_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Cole, Kevin. Interview November 28. 2012 WAHA-03 00:39:51 HIST-01 CSUSM Veterans Voices oral histories CSUSM This interview was conducted as part of the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project, now called the CSUSM Veterans Voices project. WAHA was conducted by the California State University San Marcos History Department in collaboration with the CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center) from 2012-2013. The project aimed to document, preserve, and make accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. csusm United States. Marine Corps ; September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001 ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; United States. Marine Corps--Recruiting and enlistment ; USS Cole Bombing Incident, Aden, Yemen, 2000 Kevin Cole ColeKevin_WattsJill_2012-11-28_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/67729db2171d7e702b46743f60168566.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history of Kevin Cole, recorded November 28, 2012, for the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project by the California State University San Marcos History Department. Cole begins his interview by discussing his family background as coming from an Irish Catholic immigrant family located in Lynn Massachusetts, and the role his civic-oriented family played in his and his brothers’ enlistment with the United States Marine Corps. Cole also briefly describes his brothers’ experiences in the Marines. Lynn (Mass.) ; Irish Catholic immigrants ; public service ; Marine Corps ; Mayor (Lynn, Mass.) ; fire crash rescue ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) 0 251 College experience, enlistment, and bootcamp Cole recounts his journey to enlistment in the Marine Corps, including dropping out of UMass Amherst and a short stint in community college, before attending bootcamp at Parris Island, South Carolina. UMass Amherst ; Marine Corps Recruit Depot (MCRD) ; bootcamp 0 400 Becoming a Marine Corps Rifleman Cole explains his decision to enlist with Marine Corps Infantry and describes his occupational specialty (O311), including the on-the-job training that is required to be a Rifleman and the knowledge and skills required. Cole also briefly discusses his parent unit for the entirety of his Marine Corps career, the 1st Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion, and the two-year cycle that being a Marine entails, including a six-month deployment aboard the USS Tarawa and some of the training and work that entailed. Cole also goes into detail about the experience of visiting foreign cultures and the humanitarian service side of his work. Marine Corps Infantry ; Rifleman ; O311 ; Light Armored Reconnaissance ; Marine Expeditionary Unit ; Delta Company ; 2-year cycle ; USS Tarawa ; Darwin, Australia ; Hawaii ; Thailand ; Guam ; Philippines ; Middle East ; East Timor 0 1050 Bombing of the USS Cole, ship life, downtime Cole recounts being deployed when the USS Cole, and his involvement in security and patrolling the bombing site and cleanup efforts when the USS Tarawa was dispatched to provide support. Cole also remembers his deployments aboard US naval vessels and the difficulties of ship life, and the work of a Rifleman continuing during downtime. USS Cole ; Gulf of Aden ; Indian Ocean ; downtime ; USS Tarawa ; Persian Gulf ; ship life ; Camp Doha 0 1389 September 11, 2001 and reenlistment Cole recounts learning of the 9/11 terrorist attack, which happened in the interim between his first and second deployment, while he was training at “29 Palms” (Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (MCAGCC)) during a combined arms exercise. Cole also remembers breaking up with his girlfriend in the wake of the attack. Cole reminisces about the state of technology at that time and the lack of media available to him about the attack while he was training, and the scarcity of instantaneous communication while deployed. Cole also discusses the clarifying incident that led to him reenlisting with the Marines, and how public sentiment towards members of the armed services changed after the USS Cole bombing and 9/11. 9/11 ; 29 Palms (Calf.) ; Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (MCAGCC) ; USS Mount Vernon 0 2110 Second deployment Cole describes his second deployment, this time aboard the USS Mount Vernon, including the places he went and the training he undertook, as well as an attack on the Marines in Kuwait. Cole also recounts refusing orders to go to recruiting school so that he could be deployed alongside his unit in Iraq, January 2003. USS Mount Vernon ; Darwin, Australia ; Camp Doha ; Kuwait ; terrorist attack ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; Singapore ; Guam ; Thailand ; East Timor 0 Kevin Cole served with the Marine Corps as a Rifleman from 1998 - 2007. In his interview, Cole recounts his personal motivations for enlisting with the Marines and for enlisting as a Rifleman, as well as his family's civic-minded nature. Cole also discusses his bootcamp and on-the-job training with the Marine Corps, as well as the two-year cycle of Marine life: training, joining a larger joint unit, deployment, and downtime. Cole recounts two deployments, ship life aboard his deployments on Naval vessels, the bombing of the USS Cole, the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and how attitudes towards Marines and the armed services shifted in the wake of those attacks. Cole ends his interview by relaying his reasons for reenlistment after 9/11.&#13 ; &#13 ; This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, facilitated by the California State University San Marcos History Department, from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:06.474 --> 00:00:50.871 My name's Kevin Cole, and I was born in Lynn, Massachusetts in 1977 to a Irish Catholic immigrant family. Um, my mother was from London, my dad, from the city of Lynn, which is just north of Boston. And I was the third of three brothers. I come from a family that is very kind of--a family that's very civic-minded or civic-oriented. My dad's side of the family in particular, has a lot of service, um, in the family, a lot of military service, a lot of public servants. Maybe that's the Irish heritage too, I don't know. But a lot of firefighters and cops. And the bulk of my family is still in the Boston area. 00:00:50.871 --> 00:02:06.734 My grandfather was an attorney in the, uh, United States Army. He served from, I wanna say, '40 to '44, somewhere in there. because when he got back from World War II, he served as a politician as well. He was a state senator in Massachusetts. And he was also the mayor of my hometown, which is a pretty big city outside of Boston, just north of Boston. I know he had brothers who were also in the military. I know my uncle Joe, my dad's Uncle Joe was in the Marine Corps for many years. And I had another, um, great uncle who also served in the Marine Corps. He was a colonel in the Marine Corps as well. My dad and his brother didn't serve in the military, but they were public school teachers. They both served as public school educators in the elementary schools. I think between the two of 'em, they had like seventy-five, seventy-four years of teaching service. My dad was a teacher in the Lynn Public School System in Massachusetts for forty years. And my mom and dad had three sons, um, still have three sons and all three served in the military. 00:02:06.734 --> 00:03:08.675 And I can remember as a kid growing up in Massachusetts, knowing my cousin who's the firefighter, and my uncle who's the firefighter, and, you know, other cousins who were cops and served in the military and uncles and aunts who served in the military, it was kind of a no-brainer when I was a little kid. I can remember dressing up as a Army Ranger for Halloween. And it was kind of a theme in my family. All three of the boys always talked about joining the military. My eldest brother Mike graduated from high school and kind of piddled around for a few months, and then enlisted in the Marine Corps. He was a firefighter in the Marine Corps from 1991 to 1996. And he served in a fire crash rescue department in Camp Pendleton. He served on the runway, and he's what most Marines would commonly refer to as a pope. He was a personnel other than grunt. So he wasn't a trigger puller. He actually learned a skill while he was in the Marines. 00:03:08.675 --> 00:03:39.000 It's not to say I didn't learn skills in the infantry or my other brother Pat. We both learned skills, certainly, but they don't translate well to the outside unless you want to become a cop or a SWAT team member or something along those lines. So my eldest brother Mike, served for five years. He did deploy on one occasion. He deployed to Somalia with the Marine Expeditionary Unit, sometime in early 1993 prior to the whole Black Hawk down scenario. That played out later in that year. 00:03:39.000 --> 00:04:11.444 My brother Pat also served in the Marine Corps. He enlisted in 1992, and he served for, I think just a little over four years. He was stationed primarily in Okinawa. I think he was there for three years. And he, as I said before, he was an infantry Marine. He served in the Marine Corps infantry as a reconnaissance Marine. He served, um, he served as a reconnaissance Marine for I want to say almost the entire time he was in. So he was in the infantry the whole time. 00:04:11.444 --> 00:05:29.725 And then finally the third of three sons. I enlisted in the Marine Corps in 1998. I had graduated from high school in 1996 and attended UMass Amherst for a year. And then I dropped out, mostly due to poor grades. I--I think a big part of it was that I didn't have the discipline as a student that I earned over many years in the Marines. So in 1996 when I graduated, um, went straight away to college at UMass, which was just far enough away from home to dorm and just close enough that I could drive back on the weekends if I wanted to. And so I wanted to get out of the hou--out of my parents' house. And so I went to UMass, but it didn't really work out. And so I went to community college in Massachusetts for a year part-time. And it was at that time that I met a couple of Marine Corps recruiters, and I wound up enlisting in the Marines in the summer of '98. I signed my papers on June 30th, '98, and went to bootcamp at Parris Island, South Carolina, um, MCRD, Parris Island, October 18th of '98. 00:05:29.725 --> 00:06:40.562 So I left for bootcamp. And I can remember going there and because I was an Eagle Scout, kind of a cool thing the military does, if you're an Eagle Scout, they give you a rank. They figure that you have some leadership skills. So they--you get an automatic promotion when you enlist. At least they did it that time. I think they still do it now, but I'm not certain. But regardless, I was made a private first class right when I signed the paperwork. And I went to bootcamp, and I can remember my dad saying to me, "you're the type of kid that you're either gonna wash out or you're gonna graduate from bootcamp, you know, at the top of your class." And so I went to Parris Island in October of '98. I graduated from bootcamp. I graduated a private first class. I was among the leaders of the group. Probably narrowly missed out on a promotion. But I think I gained quite a bit from bootcamp. It was a good experience for me. I got into shape and I certainly started learning discipline. But it was a process over many years that led me to being a disciplined Marine. 00:06:40.562 --> 00:08:06.824 So after bootcamp in Parris Island, um, I went to Camp Geiger, North Carolina for School of Infantry. I had enlisted as an infantry Marine despite the objections of my recruiters, I had scored really well on the ASVAB, the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery. It's the entrance exam you have to take to enlist in the military. Actually, to enter the military, you have to take this exam. And I scored really, really highly on it. In fact, I scored so highly that the Marine Corps said, you can take whatever job you want, um, and do whatever you want in the military. But there were certain job fields that encompassed many different jobs. And the one I really wanted to do was what my older brother Michael had done. He had served in a fire crash rescue, and I wanted to do the same thing. I thought being a firefighter was cool. Again, it kind of goes back to that family tradition of civil service. And so that is what I wanted. But the recruiter told me that he couldn't guarantee me a specific job. He could only guarantee me a specific job field. And that field that included fire crash rescue also included all air supporting duties. And some of 'em were just horrific. I remember Air Traffic Controller was the one that jumped out at me, and I thought there's no way I can sit in front of a computer screen for the next four years. 00:08:06.824 --> 00:09:30.595 And so, despite the recruiter's objections, I enlisted infantry knowing that all the fields are so closely related, at least I'm gonna get to do what I want to do. And so I enlisted in the infantry. My military occupational specialty is called O311. It's the Infantry Family, O3, and 11 is the designation for a rifleman. It's the most basic Marine there really is. Of course, I say most basic, and it doesn't mean--it doesn't mean elementary. It doesn't mean not as advanced. It just means that that's kind of the baseline for all Marines. And when you become a Marine Corps Rifleman, you then go on to learn a whole lot more. There's a lot more OJT, on-the-job training that comes with being in the Marine Corps Infantry. Whereas with a lot of specialty jobs like fire crash rescue or air traffic control, whatever, the initial schooling is a lot greater. Of course, there's still a certain degree of on-the-job training, but, with the Marine Corps Infantry, you really never, ever, ever stop learning. I can remember my last year in the Marines, after having served for over eight years in the Marine Corps, serving the infantry the entire time, I was still learning new things. 00:09:30.595 --> 00:10:59.514 So I think people kind of jokingly refer to as Marine Infantrymen as grunts, because that's all they do, and they don't really learn too much. But actually the knowledge that a Marine Corps Infantryman has is significant. And it doesn't come easily. It's not an easy job. So when I say basic, in terms of Marine Corps Rifleman being the basic Marine, they're actually pretty advanced, as far as intelligence, because they have to learn so much. Um, so I went to Camp Geiger. I went to School of Infantry there for the, O311 school, and I can't remember how long it was. I remember it started in January, I wanna say January 25th, 1999, and ended probably sometime in March. I think I checked into my parent unit at Camp Pendleton in the end of March. March 21st, 2000--excuse me, March 21st, 1999 was when I checked in with the 1st Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion. Uh, they're stationed in Camp Pendleton. And it's a mechanized infantry unit that provides forward reconnaissance. So it's a, it's an infantry force, but it's also a reconnaissance force. So I checked in there March of '99, and I served with that unit as my parent unit for the entire length of my Marine Corps career, until I was discharged, honorably on March the first, 2007. 00:10:59.514 --> 00:11:15.000 So I served in the same unit for just a little under eight years, plus four or five months of schooling, was my total time in service. 00:11:15.000 --> 00:12:24.215 So after checking in with first LAR (Light Armored Reconnaissance), I learned the pattern of an infantry Marine. Their cycle is such that when you join the infantry or any deploying unit for that matter, you're guaranteed somewhat of a certain cycle that follows a two year--a two year pattern. And so the two years is broken up into four, six-month pieces. The first six of which is a training cycle, which is when I joined my unit. I joined during the training cycle, and then after the six month training cycle within your unit, you then are tasked with a larger joint unit, and that unit becomes the Marine Expeditionary Unit. And so when I was with Delta Company, first, LAR, that unit was then chopped out of our parent unit and placed with a larger battalion landing team. I think it was 3-1 on my first deployment. And we spent six months training as Delta Company. And then our company moved and attached to the battalion landing team, 3rd battalion, 1st Marines, and we trained as a larger combined unit for six months. 00:12:24.215 --> 00:14:14.000 So that's the first year of the cycle. Then the second year of the cycle, the first six months is when you actually deploy. So you spend six months training as a unit. You spend six months training with the collective, a greater unit, and then you spend six months deployed. My first deployment at that time, it was prior to, uh, you know, war. It was in 2000 and September 11th hadn't happened yet. And we deployed on a normal Marine Corps pattern. So we did six months of training, six months of working up training with the larger group, and then six months deployed. My first six months as I said, was on the USS Tarawa, um, which is a pretty large ship. And we went out with the Marine Expeditionary Unit, with the battalion landing team, and we traveled by ship from San Diego to Hawaii. And then from Hawaii, we really went all over the place. Some of the ports we hit were, in Australia, we ported in Darwin, and we had the opportunity to train with the Australian Army there, the 2nd cavalry regiment, which drove--utilized the vehicles similar to the light armor reconnaissance vehicles, the LAVs that we used. Um, but we had an opportunity to train with many units. We did lots of training in Hawaii, we did training in Darwin on a couple of occasions. We trained in Singapore. We--I'm sorry, we didn't train in Singapore, we trained in Thailand. Um, but during the six months at sea on ship, we made several port ports of call. And during those times, some were for work, but some were for liberty. And so we would get free time. Singapore was one example where we got lots of free time. I think we probably spent ten days there, five days on the way out and five days on the way back. 00:14:14.000 --> 00:15:27.914 And when I say on the way out, I mean to the Middle East. It was certainly a hotspot at the time in the late nineties. So we were--we were always cognizant as Marines that there were places in the world that were danger zones. And in fact, the Middle East is a tax free zone for that purpose. It's considered a hazardous duty. And so servicemen and women who serve in that region don't pay taxes. I don't know why, but regardless, it was more pay for us. So that was nice. But the destination of deployments at that time was to the Middle East. And so we would leave San Diego and go to the Middle East and come back, and we would make that a six-month trip. And in doing so, we would stop at many ports of call. So Thailand was one example. Singapore, Guam, the Philippines, we stopped at a lot of different places. I had the opportunity to go to Seychelles, which was like, amazing. Learned how to dive there. It was pretty cool. Um, but at the same time, there's a lot of work involved as well. We, we went to, whoa! (room light turns off) 00:15:27.914 --> 00:16:12.315 So we were able to go to many different ports of call for training purposes, but also for free time purposes, which was really nice. It was the opportunity to see the world, which was cool. Which it--it wasn't why I joined the military. I think I honestly ultimately joined the Marine Corps out of a sense of civic duty. And it ended up being the Marines out of, I guess, pride. But there were a lot of Marines in my family at the time. Of course my two older brothers were both Marines. Um, they had both just been recently discharged. But I think part of it was a, certainly a sense of civic pride and a duty, kind of a sense of an obligation to give back to the country that's been really good to my family, who, as I said, were immigrants. 00:16:12.315 --> 00:16:50.044 So, going overseas and deploying to a different hostile--different hotspots at the time, they weren't quite hostile until later, was an amazing experience. To visit foreign cultures and do a lot of good--in different ways--providing medical services in East Timor was a great one. We earned a--my unit collectively earned a humanitarian service medal on a couple of occasions for going to East Timor and helping a really severely impoverished country. 00:16:50.044 --> 00:17:30.315 But we also had opportunities to do, you know, help build schools and paint houses and lots of neat stuff like that. The service abroad was not just, go to Iraq, go to Afghanistan and start, you know, being a bully. It was an opportunity to do humanitarian work. In fact a significant portion of my time spent in Iraq in 2003 was actually giving out food, giving out food. Giving out water, medical aid to people. That's certainly some of the things that I remember fondly from my service in Iraq. 00:17:30.315 --> 00:19:06.000 But going overseas on my first deployment on the USS Tarawa, the threat of war is something that's always in the back of a mind, the mind of a Marine, especially one in the infantry who fires a gun almost every day and learns how to employ weapons of warfare. So it was a shock to me, but not a total shock when the USS Cole was bombed. I was deployed, I was onboard the USS Tarawa at the time when the USS Cole was bombed. In fact, I believe we were in the Persian Gulf. And when the Tara--excuse me, when the USS Cole was bombed in the Gulf of Aden--I think it was the Gulf of Aden--we, you know, did 180-degree return and sailed south from the Gulf. And I believe we were on scene the next day. We provided security operations, uh, Zodiac patrols. Zodiacs are the small boats you see in movies. We provided security patrols via those small boats. We also, uh, the ship, as I said, the Tarawa was a big ship, so we provided a base of operations for the investigation team that was there. I believe they were members of the FBI. I'm not certain, um, or might have even been the CIA, I don't know. But there were guys wearing suits and they were investigating the USS Cole bombing. And so we were there onsite for that. And that was really, um, I don't wanna say it was a wake up call because it wasn't a shock, but it was a surprise that a terrorist attack had occurred. 00:19:06.000 --> 00:21:26.324 Regardless, we continued with our deployment after the area had been secured in the USS Cole was then, taken over by another crew and I believe it was floated back to the United States on a huge cargo ship. We continued on with our mission, which as I said, was to go to the Middle East, to do some training in the Middle East to be a part of the Fifth Fleet and to monitor activities in the Indian Ocean and the Persian Gulf area. And so we went to camp Doha in Kuwait and did some training in Kuwait, for, I don't know, probably a month? Two to four weeks. Anyway. And while we were there, we were doing training exercises, and it was always, uh, everything we did was always a preparation for war. It's really--it's a reality. And it's funny because--it's funny--it's strange because as young Marines, you are taught and you perform so much in preparation for war, that when it comes, it's not a surprise, it's not a shock. And for the most part, you're ready for it. So we, we conducted our deployment. We did our training in Camp Doha, and we came back to the States. Um, we spent, I think, six months to the day on board the USS Tarawa. We'd also spent some time ashore of course doing some training and stuff, but for the most part, it was ship life, which it isn't, uh, it isn't very fun. It isn't very fun at all. It seemed like on both my deployments via US Naval vessel, both times in the middle of the Indian Ocean, in the middle of summer, when it's 120 degrees out, the air conditioner breaks in the berthing area, which is the room where, um, which is a quarters on board the ship where Marines and Sailors sleep. It seemed like it didn't fail that the air conditioner would break at some point during the deployment and make the inside of the ship, you know, 150 degrees. And I can remember many, many hot nights sleeping on the flight deck, which is probably frowned upon now, I would imagine. But at the time, it wasn't that big a deal 00:21:26.324 --> 00:23:09.000 Regardless, we came back, I wanna say in February of 2000. I wanna say February of 2000, or, yeah--February of 2000 is when we came back from my first deployment. I believe it was with the 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit, but it might have been the 11th, because I always get 'em confused. The next time I went out was about a year and a half later, and I went out with the other one. This time it was with Battalion Landing Team 2/1, which is 2nd Marines, excuse me, 2nd Battalion, 1st Marines. And with 2/1, we did the same cycle again. So it's the six months of training, six months of training as a combined unit, six months of deployment on ship, and then you get six months of downtime where there are a lot of three and four-day weekends. Sometimes. They're--you're supposed to get a lot of three and four day weekends. It doesn't always work out that way. Um, but after our six months of downtime, which we did get, we went right back into training phase again, and an Infantry Marine trains all the time. You shoot your gun all the time, you clean your gun all the time. We had large vehicles to take care of being in a mechanized in mechanized infantry unit. We had vehicles to clean, to maintain, to test and to push to the limit to ensure that we could do so again in a time of crisis, which of course, proved relevant. Regardless, my second deployment came in 2002 after training some more and training with the Battalion Landing Team again, we then deployed in June of 2002. 00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:56.825 Now, in the interim, September 11th had happened, and I remember September 11th, pretty vividly, only because I was--I mean, I'm sure I'd remember it vividly either way, but I remember it, I remember the moment for me when a corporal I was serving with came up to me and told me a plane crashed into the Twin Towers. And then he said, and you know, half an hour ago, another plane crashed into the other tower. And at the time, we were training in 29 Palms. We had been in 29 Palms for several weeks. We were doing a combined arms exercise. So it was a lot of different moving parts, a lot of units. In fact, I think it was one of the biggest combined armed exercises that 29 Palms had seen in a while. And that was saying a lot because it's one of the biggest bases, it's my understanding it's the largest impact area. 00:23:56.825 --> 00:25:22.000 So there's the largest training ground where you can fire weapons. And they often have combined armed exercises that have, you know, five, ten thousand Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, et cetera tied to them. This was one of the larger combined armed exercises that 29 Palms had conducted. And I don't know how many thousands of Marines were there working in cooperation during this training exercise, but it was significant. It was a lot. And when September 11th happened, I remember calling home, and I had a, I had a girlfriend at the time back in Massachusetts where I'm originally from, and I can remember calling her the next day and telling her this, you know, our relationship isn't gonna work anymore. And it was not a hard decision for me at all. I remember she kind of got upset and said, "What are you talking about? You know, you're gonna break up with me over the phone." And I said, "You know what?" I said, "I am serving my country and I can't afford to be tied to anything but the Marine Corps. I'm married to the Marine Corps, essentially." And I can remember it wasn't a tough decision. I just felt it incumbent upon me as a citizen of this country to continue to serve to the best of my ability and to eliminate any distractions. And I don't think it was right then that I had decided to reenlist, but it was a short time later. 00:25:22.000 --> 00:26:40.815 I remember September 11th, you know, it all went down and we continued our training cycle. We were scheduled to be in 29 Palms for several more weeks, and we stayed. So we didn't have access to TV at the time. You know, it was 2001. I remember I was a squad leader of a group of fifteen to twenty men, and I think seven of us had cell phones. Six or seven of us had cell phones, the other guys didn't have cell phones. It's important to consider that as the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, the conflicts that have arisen in the 2000s, as they have progressed, technology has advanced in such a way that it blows people's minds when I tell them, you know, when I served in Iraq, there were no cell phones. You couldn't just pull a phone out of your pocket in 2003 and call your mom in Boston. It just wasn't possible. Phones weren't capable of doing that. And if they were, I sure didn't have one. And they were probably way too expensive. I remember we had one or two reporters who were tasked to our unit in Iraq, and they had phones that were capable of calling the United States. I got to call home once in 2003. One time I got to call home and talk to my, I think, my brother, for about five minutes. And that was it. That was it. That was it. 00:26:40.815 --> 00:27:08.055 So I think it's important to recognize that technology has advanced in such a way that when I say to people, only seven guys out of, you know, fifteen to twenty had cell phones, they say, what? This was a time, Skype hadn't been invented, MacBooks and Apple was, was still a significant, um, significantly struggling, I should say. Technology wasn't advanced to the point where it is now. 00:27:08.055 --> 00:28:25.765 And so when September 11th happened, I can remember we had one guy in my unit who was from New York State. He was just a little ways away from New York. And I remember he used my phone to call home and make sure his family was okay. And they were, but I can remember the impact of September 11th happening on us as Marines wasn't as significant as it was to the common citizen. Um, I think because of our military training, I think because of our military mindset, because we were in the infantry, it was kind of like, wow. But it wasn't a total shock. It was shocking that somebody was able to attack our country so boldly, so blatantly. But I don't think it really surprised or scared any of us. I think it--in the infantry, we can't be scared because of our training and our training is very important and very thorough, and it prepares us for things like that. Certainly, it doesn't prepare you for a plane flying into a building, but at the same time, the shock factor wasn't as big for us as Marines. 00:28:25.765 --> 00:30:49.375 And so after September 11th happened, we had to continue to train. We were still in 29 Palms. We still had a couple of weeks there. I think we spent probably three more weeks in 29 Palms. So much time in fact, that when we got back to Camp Pendleton, the video footage of the attack on the Twin Towers was gone. They had already removed it from the news reels. So for the most part, all we saw was still images. I saw a few small videos, but I didn't see what everybody else saw on September 11th, because I was training, I was out in the field. I didn't have access to a TV. I didn't have a smartphone where you could watch the news. In fact, in 2003 when we deployed to Iraq, we heard the news probably three times, BBC. But it was one of the biggest aspects of coming home that was fearful to me. People often ask me, were you scared in Iraq? And I said, no, never. I was scared when I got on the plane and was about halfway back to the United States, though, because I didn't know what people were gonna think of me. Technology hadn't caught up to that point to, like it is today where soldiers in the field can actually get in front of a computer and Skype home and read their kid a bedtime story. That is new technology that we weren't privy to. And so when September 11th occurred, and we were in 29 Palms, it was certainly shocking to us. But I think it was later that I made the decision to reenlist, because later in the year, we were coming back from a large exercise in the cold weather training facility up by Bishop California. And when we were on our way back, I can remember somebody had. in my vehicle had wired a little FM radio to our intercom system so we could actually hear the news. So we could actually hear the news. And we actually got to hear a local station come on and say, you know, soldiers in, in their big tanks are gonna be driving down Main Street any minute, go out and, and, and wave to the soldiers. 00:30:49.375 --> 00:32:27.865 And I can remember driving through the small town California and seeing kids running out of a schoolhouse to line the sidewalk and wave and cheer for us. And it was very, um, it was very--it was very special. It was very special to receive that kind of support because I had never seen it before. And when I talked to servicemen and women today about the support we had and the support we didn't have while serving from society, they're kind of shocked when I tell 'em about my first few years in the Marines when Marines were kind of frowned upon. They weren't well liked. They were--Marines were underfoot, there were too many of 'em. Um, I can remember going into a couple of bars, nightclubs in North Carolina when I was in School of Infantry and being told, "Hey, Marines aren't allowed in this bar. You need to go somewhere else." And that was okay. You know, that nowadays you hear that somebody isn't supporting the military and whoa, go to another country. Um, but at that time, it wasn't cool to be a Marine. It wasn't cool to be in the service. And so to see that transition, probably right after the USS Cole was bombed, certainly at September 11th, to see that transition of servicemen are kind of frowned upon to, wow, I want my daughter to date a Marine. Um, and I don't know if it's ever actually gone that far, but certainly better than Marines aren't allowed in this bar. 00:32:27.865 --> 00:34:09.000 And I think it was driving through those small towns and watching kids wave and people come out, I can remember thinking, and maybe even saying over the intercom of my vehicle, "Hey guys, this is why we're here." And I remember thinking in my head, this is why I'm serving my country, to provide freedom, and to provide security for our people. And to see that threatened was--it was horrifying. But as I said, it wasn't shocking. I think the shock value of it was lessened on us as Marines. But regardless, to see an outpouring of public support for the military and to see the public really at that time transitioned from a, eh, I don't know how I feel about the military to wow, I love our military. It was definitely special. And at some point in there, I decided to reenlist. Each of my older brothers served one enlistment. My older brother Mike served for five years. My brother Pat served a little over four, but I made a decision to reenlist partly based upon September 11th, partly based upon the type of support we got as servicemen and women from the American public. But I think a big part of it too, was, again, it kind of fell back to this civic duty, this sense of obligation I felt, that was kind of inborn in me as a kid. I felt that my duty was not yet done. 00:34:09.000 --> 00:35:10.656 And further, when we got back from 29 Palms, when we got back from--when we got back from, uh, the training exercise in the cold weather warfare, I can remember I was pretty close to getting out of the Marines at that time. I had a few months left in the Marine Corps in my first enlistment. And I remember one of my commanders saying, we're gonna need volunteers to go back out on a second deployment because we're short. And me and probably three or four other guys--me and probably three or four other guys volunteered to go back out with Delta Company first LAR again. And that was when we deployed on the (USS) Mount Vernon, in 2002. We did another six month deployment. We did another six months training, six months of training with the combined group, and then a six month deployment and returned home on December 15th, 2002. 00:35:10.656 --> 00:36:33.934 Now, that deployment was a little bit different than the first. I can recall that somebody was retiring. I believe it was the admiral, or someone high ranking was retiring. And so he wanted to go to some of the nice places on our deployment. That was the rumor. I don't know if it was true. But regardless, we seemed to be going to a lot of nice ports of call. We went to Darwin, we went to Singapore, we went to Guam, we went to Thailand. We went to Thailand, we went to East Timor, which was kind of typical in the training cycle at that time, doing some humanitarian efforts there. We also went to, I believe we went to Seychelles on that deployment. So we hit a lot of cool, cool places to go, a lot of good places to go and enjoy ourselves, to, you know, go on the beach to surf, to dive. But we also did some significant training. And it was there in Camp Doha when we were out in an impact area training, we received word that one of the units at assigned to the Battalion Landing Team had been attacked in Kuwait. And I don't remember if one Marine was killed and one Marine was wounded, or if two Marines were killed. I think it was two Marines were killed. And it was a terrorist attack. It was kind of this truck full of guys drove by and fired into a group of Marines who were doing some training, and one or two were killed. 00:36:33.934 --> 00:38:16.485 And that was kind of shocking because we were a forward force at the time. We were, you know, not out there in a peaceful manner. We were out there doing training, firing guns, having a live fire exercise in Kuwait, in Northern Kuwait. And we were attacked. And I remember that really kind of set the tone. When we were on our way back, we already knew that something was going down soon. And I remember I had extended my contract by four or five months to deploy on the second occasion. And when we got back from deployment, I remember I was told--uh, I reenlisted during deployment. I remember I was told, we're gonna need you, Sergeant Cole to go to recruiting school. And I can remember saying, no, I'm not going to recruiting school. You're crazy. My unit's getting ready to go overseas again. And we returned on December 15th, and between December 15th and I think January 6th, I refused orders to go to recruiting school, got like a reprimand. Um, mainly for the fact that the sergeant who was gonna replace me--I didn't trust him with my Marines. Period. I didn't trust him with my Marines. And I felt that if somebody was gonna continue to lead my platoon, it should be me and not somebody they don't know. So for those reasons, I denied my orders and was reprimanded and deployed to Iraq. 00:38:16.485 --> 00:39:31.945 So we deployed to Iraq in January, 2003. We had just come back from deployment on a--on the USS Mount Vernon. And a month later we were on a plane from March Air (Reserve) Base flying back to Iraq. We landed in Kuwait in, I don't know, mid-January 2003. And at that point, we were all aware that danger was imminent. Um, period. We knew what we were there to do. But in the back of our minds, we were all told, you know, this is a military engagement certainly, but it is also a significant humanitarian effort. We're going to relieve people who are being oppressed. And we were given humanitarian food. We were given extra water, extra food that we could give out. All of our Navy Corpsmen were instructed to give out medical aid as necessary and as able, um, without it being detrimental to the Marines they were serving with. And so we knew that was definitely gonna be a part of our mission. 00:39:31.945 --> 00:39:51.445 So when we arrived in Kuwait, again, we went right back into training and preparing. We had many different missions that we were, um, that we were tasked with. I'll get to that another time 'cause I gotta go. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. 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Interview November 28, 2012 Description An account of the resource Kevin Cole served with the Marine Corps as a Rifleman from 1998 - 2007. In his interview, Cole recounts his personal motivations for enlisting with the Marines and for enlisting as a Rifleman, as well as his family's civic-minded nature. Cole also discusses his bootcamp and on-the-job training with the Marine Corps, as well as the two-year cycle of Marine life: training, joining a larger joint unit, deployment, and downtime. Cole recounts two deployments, ship life aboard his deployments on Naval vessels, the bombing of the USS Cole, the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and how attitudes towards Marines and the armed services shifted in the wake of those attacks. Cole ends his interview by relaying his reasons for reenlistment after 9/11. This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, a collaboration of the California State University San Marcos History Department and CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center), from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WAHA-03 Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001 United States. Marine Corps United States. Marine Corps -- Recruiting and enlistment USS Cole Bombing Incident, Aden, Yemen, 2000 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-11-28 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kevin Cole Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lynn (Mass.) Twentynine Palms (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> CSUSM Veterans Voices Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/84b4d291425238d1a6b1ad8321a41775.pdf 03077269591f47c6d5239cd22e9b9ad9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cole, Kevin. Interview transcript, November 28, 2012 Description An account of the resource Transcript of oral history interview with Kevin Cole. Cole served with the Marine Corps as a Rifleman from 1998 - 2007. In his interview, Cole recounts his personal motivations for enlisting with the Marines and for enlisting as a Rifleman, as well as his family's civic-minded nature. Cole also discusses his bootcamp and on-the-job training with the Marine Corps, as well as the two-year cycle of Marine life: training, joining a larger joint unit, deployment, and downtime. Cole recounts two deployments, ship life aboard his deployments on Naval vessels, the bombing of the USS Cole, the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and how attitudes towards Marines and the armed services shifted in the wake of those attacks. Cole ends his interview by relaying his reasons for reenlistment after 9/11. This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, a collaboration of the California State University San Marcos History Department and CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center), from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kevin Cole Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-11-28 Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001 United States. Marine Corps USS Cole Bombing Incident, Aden, Yemen, 2000 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lynn (Mass.) Twentynine Palms (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text CSUSM Veterans Voices Veteran experience