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Oral Histories
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Linda Kallas
Interviewee
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Diania Caudell
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5.4 Caudell, Diania. Interview October 27, 2022 SC027-22 1:35:35 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Basket making Education -- Native Americans Luiseño Indians Oceanside (Calif.) Diania Caudell Linda Kallas mp4 CaudellDiania_KallasLinda_2022-10-17_access_redacted.mp4 1:|23(17)|51(14)|74(5)|91(9)|108(14)|129(9)|139(14)|156(6)|168(11)|179(10)|196(9)|215(13)|233(8)|248(2)|265(9)|282(2)|300(17)|312(13)|340(16)|373(13)|399(13)|418(11)|435(5)|458(2)|482(12)|497(4)|513(2)|533(6)|552(8)|567(7)|584(9)|601(8)|626(4)|645(12)|668(10)|684(13)|710(7)|729(7)|751(5)|765(7)|792(7)|816(12)|830(5)|857(12)|875(11)|904(17)|924(12)|947(6)|967(7)|989(14)|1008(8)|1030(2)|1044(10)|1061(14)|1082(9)|1100(1)|1123(13)|1148(8)|1170(9)|1192(9)|1209(1)|1220(1)|1235(15)|1255(1)|1280(9)|1294(14)|1320(7)|1340(14)|1356(3)|1382(10)|1402(4)|1432(12)|1452(9)|1472(6)|1487(8)|1503(5)|1546(12)|1562(15)|1580(16)|1603(4)|1622(9)|1638(6)|1659(2)|1682(6)|1722(3)|1761(12)|1780(1)|1791(6)|1806(11)|1820(8)|1840(16)|1854(2)|1876(3)|1895(7)|1907(7) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/214f3df10b105188751e6d028fef0176.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction/ Family background Diania Caudell discusses her family’s background. Diania explains that one side of her family is part of the San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians and that goes back nine generations. The other side of her family is French, and her great-grandfather, Hubert Foussat, was one of the founding fathers of Oceanside, CA. She also discusses other family details, such as the fact that she and her parents moved around the West Coast during her childhood due to her father’s career in construction, as well as information about her grandmother who worked at Camp Pendleton. family history ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians 339 Activism in Indian education reform Diania Caudell discusses her activism in advocating for the Acjachemen and Juaneño people for education reform in San Jan Capistrano, CA. She recalls fighting against Indigenous erasure in her children’s classrooms. She describes the complicated history of school registration files in terms of ethnicity, and how many Indigenous families were taught to select either “Other” or “Caucasian” on school and other legal forms. She explains how this causes erasure in the school system. She recalls surveying the K-12 registration files in the San Juan Capistrano Unified School District and identified 210 Indigenous students. This led to the formation of the San Juan Capistrano Council, which established an Indian Research Center. Acjachemen people ; activism ; education reform ; Indian education ; Indigenous activism ; Indigenous students ; Juaneño people ; San Jan Capistrano (Calif.) ; San Juan Capistrano Unified School District ; students 727 Back injury/ Career in basketry Diania Caudell describes a back injury she suffered. She recounts deciding to undergo back surgery and learning how to walk again. While recovering from the surgery, the Acjachemen people sent her a newsletter about basketry. She describes making the decision to learn basket-weaving in order to learn patience for her recovery, and also to expand her knowledge on Indian education. Acjachemen people ; Back injury ; Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous education 1167 Indigenous educational programs Diania Caudell discusses the current state of the San Juan Capistrano Unified School District. The Indian Research Center is open to the student population, but she explains that it requires federal funding to remain open. She also explains that the Research Center is also open in Huntington Beach because they have a large Cherokee community in the area. She explains how Indigenous history is not properly taught in K-12 schools. activism ; Cherokee people ; education reform ; Huntington Beach (Calif.) ; Indian education ; Indigenous activism ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous students ; San Jan Capistrano (Calif.) ; San Juan Capistrano Unified School District ; students 1511 The California Indian Basketry Weavers Association Diania Caudell discusses her involvement with the California Indian Basketry Weavers Association (CIBA). She explains that she has been a CIBA board member for at least twelve years. Before joining the board, the CIBA discovered that the traditional materials that are used in basket weaving were being destroyed due to development projects. Since becoming a board member, Diania has advocated towards protecting Southern California native lands. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; California Indian Basketry Weavers Association (CIBA) ; Environmentalism ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Native lands ; Native plants 1968 The foundations of basket-weaving Diania Caudell describes the various types of traditional plants that are used in basket-weaving. She explains that California is home to over 243 tribes, and that each tribe uses different plants. In Southern California, about five different plants are used in basket-weaving, such as the Juncus textilis and yucca. Diania also describes the many different weaving and dyeing techniques that are used in basketry. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Native lands ; Native plants 3030 Pesticide and insecticide effects on native plants and basket-weaving Diania Caudell describes the dangers pesticides and insecticides have on native plants and on the health of the community. This is an important topic that she has brought awareness to as a CIBA board member. Cities and counties often will not provide notice to their citizens when they begin spraying to protect against insects and rodents, and this causes major health concerns to basket-weavers or others who regularly pick native plants and crops. She describes an incident in which she smelled a plant and experienced a chemical reaction. She expresses concern for places like golf courses and hiking trails, where athletes, families, children, and animals frequent regularly. Diania also explains how the chemicals are affecting food and water supplies in Indigenous communities. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; California Indian Basketry Weavers Association (CIBA) ; Environmentalism ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Insecticides ; Native lands ; Native plants ; Pesticides 3584 Local volunteer work Diania Caudell discusses her volunteer work in North County. She has volunteered her time at Camp Pendelton, at Daly Ranch, and at local elementary schools. Diania discusses in great detail her time as a docent at Daly Ranch, where she aided in the “Indian program” and presented on the history of local Indigenous communities. She recalls bonding with one of the rangers and how they made a wiiwish dish together. She also recalls how her role expanded while volunteering at the Daly Ranch, other volunteers with whom she worked, and the school group programs she helped develop. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; California State University San Marcos ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Daly Ranch ; Escondido (Calif.) ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous education ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; students 3994 Basket-weaving at Mission San Luis Rey Diania Caudell discusses her volunteer work at Mission San Luis Rey. She provided a basket-weaving demonstration to forty-six Franciscans. She describes expecting to see the Franciscan friars dressed in traditional robes, but was surprised to find them dressed in modern street clothes. She recalls the demonstration being a rewarding experience for all involved. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Catholic Church ; Franciscan friars ; friars ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Mission San Luis Rey ; Oceanside (Calif.) 4328 Upcoming presentations Diania Caudell discusses the upcoming presentations she has scheduled in North County. She talks about planning to do basket-weaving demonstrations at Pablo Tac elementary school. She also talks about performing at the upcoming Jubilation of the Valley Festival and doing another basket-weaving demonstration at a senior center. She also recounts her recent demonstration at Camp Pendleton, where she discussed the native plants near the area with the audience. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Schools ; Students 4606 Controversy over working with the Mission Diania Caudell reflects on the criticism she has received from the Indigenous community about her volunteer work at the Mission San Luis Rey. She states that she is not condoning the racist history of the Mission towards their Indigenous community, but she also wants to pay her respects to her ancestors who are buried on the Mission grounds. She explains the complicated history the Luiseño people have with the Mission, especially those whose ancestors helped built the Mission, or who were educated and lived on the Mission’s grounds. family history ; genocide ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Mission San Luis Rey ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; racism 5016 Becoming a historian/ The Luiseño language Diania Caudell discusses how she became a historian of Indigenous history. She explains how she attended California State University Riverside to learn the Luiseño language. She then performs a demo language presentation with the interviewer. She uses laminated cards containing illustrations with associating Luiseño words for the demo presentation. Diania also reads a poem that she wrote about the Luiseño people and their creation story that was inspired by a hike up a mountain near Rainbow, CA. California State University Riverside ; historian ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Indigenous poetry ; Luiseño language ; Luiseño people ; poetry ; Rainbow (Calif.) Oral history Interview with Diania Caudell focused on her Native American ancestry as well as her past occupation as an accountant. Also included is her implementation of Native American education in the San Juan Capistrano School District and how her back injury led her to become a basket weaver. The written transcription of this interview also contains a glossary and poem in Luiseño with English translation, written by Caudell in 2003. DC: Is my lipstick okay? [laughs] Today is October 27, 2022. I am Linda Kallas, and I am interviewing Diania Caudell as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Thank you, Diania, for being here, and allowing me to do this with you today. Diania Caudell: No $uun Looviq [" ; My heart is good" ; in Luiseno. Our way of saying " ; thank you." ; ] [chuckles] Linda: Miiyu. [" ; Hello" ; to one person in Luiseno.] DC: Miiyu [laughs]. LK: Um, we were--I just wanted to ask you when and where you were born. DC: Uh, where was I-- [redacted] 1948. I was born here in North County, San Diego--Oceanside, California, San Diego County. LK: And was your family an active part of any cultural community, such as religious or ethnic groups? DC: Well [sighs] yeah, we were, uh, part of the first indigenous people here in the Americas or whatever you want to say on that part. Um, we are part of the San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians, uh, been in the area as far as, uh, the written is concerned, you know, since they were written at the Missions, I would say the 1700s, because after that it was, um, mostly--before that it was all oral. So, um, we' ; ve been here over nine generations. That' ; s on the native side. LK: That' ; s on the native side. DC: Yeah. LK: Which means-- DC: It means that-- LK: On the other side is-- DC: On the other side, the French side came to us, and he landed here in 1868. He was Hubert Foussat. Here in San Francisco. He was one of the founding fathers of Oceanside. LK: Is that why there' ; s a street named after him? DC: Yes. But that' ; s not at a--that' ; s not named after my great grandfather. That' ; s named, really, with--after his brother, Ramon Foussat. LK: Okay. DC: And he' ; s the one that had the ranch in the area up there, by Highland and Oceanside. Faustino Foussat had the land there in the valley, San Luis Rey Valley. LK: And there' ; s also an elementary school named Louise Foussat. DC: Yes. She' ; s--I' ; ve always called her as an aunt, but she' ; s really a cousin. Um, she was--she married a Foussat. Okay. Her maiden name is a Munoa, and her mother was, um, Theresa Gidden, Theresa Giddens, and, um, that' ; s another one that' ; s--she was born at Pala, and, uh,that' ; s another side of our family, my father' ; s side, that had been here a long time. That' ; s another whole side that I could talk about when you get to that point, if you want to, and his grandmother-- LK: Okay. DC: --was born on the Marron Ranch in 1865, so-- LK: So, your family history stretches way back in the North County. DC: Yes. Yes. LK: Um, this seems like a silly question, but how do you like living and working here? DC: [laughs] Okay, it--all I can tell you is that, um, I wouldn' ; t want to live anyplace else, you know, other than--growing up, I lived all over the state of California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Nevada, only because I' ; m, I' ; m a construction brat, let' ; s just put it that way. My father was a heavy construction operator, had his own equipment. So, if you go anywhere here in California for the freeways, he probably helped build those, all the dams here in California, uh, he was probably was working on those, um, also like Parker Dam in New Mexico, you know, even in Arizona, I mean, excuse me, Arizona. You have some of the bigger dams, you know, throughout [breathes in] so, um, my mother kept coming back to North County, because she was born here in San Luis Rey Valley. Her family, her family' ; s from here. My father' ; s family is from Pala. So, we kept coming back and, um, I think she put her foot down from travelling when my brother and I were in junior high. So, I graduated from Escondido High School, and stayed in Escondido until I got married, then I moved up to Orange County, San Juan Capistrano. I was up there for 40 some years, before I came back down here to my home. LK: Wow. DC: [laughs, then bell chimes] Oh-oh. Is that me? LK: Well, so you do feel part of the community, and within that, do you feel like you have a support network? DC: Well, if you' ; re gonna say support network, you' ; re going to have to look at the whole family, okay. Just with my great-grandfather. He had 11 daughters. LK: Wow. DC: And so, one of them was my grandmother, and he raised my mother because her father died when she, when she was a young child. And so, my great-grandfather, Faustino Foussat, raised her. So, when you have a large--just one branch of the Foussat family that had all these sisters and all these children, um, there' ; s a support group on the ones that were close [chuckles] let' ; s just say. My grandmother, um, was born in San Luis Rey Valley, uh, lived there all her life, uh, well not all her--until she retired, and then she went to Hemet. But, she retired from Camp Pendleton. She was one of the first workers there, you know, in the pressing. So, network-wise, yes, we have a good network of family. But, they all kind of seem to travel away, you know, on some things. Still, today, you know, because it' ; s San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians which I' ; m part of, we have good support network, in that, within relatives. I mean we have--I have a lot of cousins, you know, and related on both sides. If we had to talk about that, I' ; m double related on some of them, and people just kind of wonder what--how did that happen? When you try to explain the story, uh, it gets confusing. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: So, um, we just want to do a big picture one day [laughs]. LK: That would be nice. Um, you said that you were in Orange County for 40 years. DC: Mm-hmm. LK: So, tell me about the work you did there. DC: [sighs] Ok. Let' ; s just start that--when I got married, I moved up there and, um, when I was here I was starting in accounting. Okay? I' ; m an accountant by trade. That wasn' ; t really what I wanted to do, but that' ; s how it ended up, you know, going into accounting. Um, so I did a lot of accounting for dealerships. Went back to college to get my degree into Accounting, and then went into accounting, business law, etc. so I stayed--like to work with numbers. I' ; m just good with numbers. And, so, I worked with dealerships, school districts, medical field in the accounting field. I didn' ; t become, later on, the weaver or in, with my cultural until I had to have a back injury. So, for 40-some years, up there in San Juan Capistrano, Orange County, I got involved with the Acjachemen people, the Juaneños there, helping them through Indian education, in the 70s, because that' ; s a story that-- I can go into that, and I think I--it' ; s kind of long but shortly is that I grew up with being native, and the schools not teaching us correctly. Okay? LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You read the books, etcetera, and you hear about how they were dressed, what they were, were they savages? Etcetera. And I would come home from school and saying this is not how we are. And then my mother, my grandmother, and family would say " ; Don' ; t argue, Diania, just let it go." ; And so when I got married, and my two children, my son and my daughter, when they went to school up there in the Palisades, or in Capistrano Unified School District, they came home one day and said they were entitled to something other. It was like a Spanish program, Title II, at that time. And so, I went to the school to find out how my children got tagged into--in the Spanish community, when my last name is French, and it' ; s Caudell. And so, talking with the school principal, um, we found out that I followed that person that was in charge of Title II, and what had happened--how my two ended up coming with that notice is that this person went around the school to the classrooms and asked questions. Now, if you had a surname, with Romero, Sanchez, Alvaros, Valenzuela, any of those Spanish names, she automatically put them down on the list as a Spanish or Mexican. Uh, then, the other question when she got that from the roster, she then would ask " ; how many children here already know that their parents, or grandparents, speak Spanish." ; Well, my two automatically raised their hand because their father spoke Spanish. And he was taught that from his mother and also because of the community of San Juan Capistrano. You' ; ve got to think of the missions. That was the language that was taught to the Indian people. And, um, so that' ; s how my two got on there. And so I challenged that at the school district, at the, you know, with the superintendent, and, uh, they came back at me and saying " ; well, the last Indian person that was living here in San Juan Capistrano died in 1933, and he was the bell-ringer." ; And I go, " ; no, that can' ; t be, because I' ; m here. I' ; ve got relatives that are married into the Juaneño or Acjachemen people. You still have them here, and so, um, I became an advocate [laughs], an activist, or whatever you want to say, and contacted my relatives there, that are--that married into the Acjachemen people, and, identified them. We went back to the school district, and went through all their rosters, because back in the 70s, when you' ; re ethnic, when they ask you that question, when you' ; re enrolling your student, your child, they ask you what ethnic group you are. Well, in those days--I' ; m saying those days, in the 70s, you only had, like, you had Caucasian, you had Asian--not even Asian, really. Mexican, I think. But you didn' ; t have the--what you have today is the Native American/Alaskan ethnic group. And so I always put us under " ; Other" ; as Native American, because I am a registered through the B.I.A., Bureau of Indian Affairs, and I have my certification, that I am who I am, meaning Native American. And, um, so I always made sure that my children would have that, going through there. So, we went through K-12, went to the registry of the school district and got all their cum files, or whatever they call them, those information files, and took home all the ones that were identified as Native American. A lot of them were not, because they didn' ; t want to, because it was passed down to us that you didn' ; t want to register as Native American because it wasn' ; t the best thing to do. So, they always put Caucasian. So, from K-12 in that school district, Capistrano High School District, we had identified 210 students. LK: Wow. DC: And so that kind of put us into the category of challenging the school. Uh, UCI had Kogee Thomas at that time. She was the Director. She heard about what was happening. She came down to become my mentor. With that, because she' ; s really high with the Seminoles and Muscogee people at that, then, and we wrote the first grant. We brought in Title IV, Indian Education Act, Public Law 194, in 1975. [laughs] LK: Wow. DC: So, I' ; ve been through this for a long time. We ended up forming the San Juan Capistrano Council, because they had to reform themselves again. They never left. They just said their leader moved, and they just kind of--in the 60s, or in the 50s, he left, and so they just kind of knew they were there, but they weren' ; t formally formed yet. So we reformed them. So today I can just tell you that in Capistrano Unified School District, they still have Indian Education. They have a Indian Research Center, kind of, for teachers, instructors, and parents, there on the Clarence Lobo Elementary school grounds. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That if you wanted to study any Indian, not just California, any, any native person across indigenous person across the United States, in Alaska and Hawaii, etc., that you can go to that resource center, and that instructor, teacher, parent can pull the correct information that these tribes have handed in. So, that was one of my things that I did up there, other than just being an accountant. LK: Wow, that' ; s impressive. DC: Okay, that was in the community. [laughs] LK: Yes, yes. And then you mentioned you hurt your back and that' ; s what lead you to getting into basketry. Can you talk a little bit about that? DC: [sighs] Yeah, that was, um, a fall I had, okay? I don' ; t want to describe the fall, because it' ; s kind of, you know, it' ; s kind of stupid. I mean, the thing is when you hurt your back, um, I thought I' ; d go to the chiropractor. I went to work, and was working in Huntington Beach at that time, and I drove my car to Huntington Beach, went to sit down at my desk at the dealership, sat down and I couldn' ; t move. They had to literally pick me up, take me to my car. I called my chiropractor in Newport and, uh, he went to adjust it, and he says " ; This isn' ; t that, you know. This is something else." ; And so they took x-rays, and he still tried the adjustment. I--and it got a point where I had to quit. I couldn' ; t--you know, I was losing to walk, etc. And the pain kept going through that, and then finally when they did an MRI on me, you know, they found out that I had―let me see, I' ; m trying to figure out how to describe this, because I' ; m not a medic, medical person-- I was diag--rheumatism arthritis runs in our family on my dad' ; s side, my grandmother' ; s side. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Not too much on my mother' ; s side, but on, through my dad' ; s side. And so, I guess hereditarily, I have that in my system. What are you going to do? So, when I hit the lower back really hard, I accelerated the arthritis rheumatism in my spine. And so when that happened, that' ; s what they found with the MRI. So, they said " ; Diania, if you don' ; t have, do something with it, it' ; s going to get worse, and you' ; re going to lose a lot of functions that you normally can take that you can control of. And, anyway, I put it off a whole year. I didn' ; t want to have my back opened up. And so, I got to a point where I couldn' ; t deal with this anymore. And so, I had to say yes. They opened up 5, 4, and 6 of your vertebraes < ; sic> ; . They opened them up, and all I can describe it was a rotor-rooter job. She went in there, and just tried to scrape out all the rheumatism, or arthritis, away from my spine, inside my spine. And when she did that, she hit one of the sciatic nerves. LK: oh-- DC: And uh, ' ; cuz it, nothing' ; s replaced. They just sealed it back up again. And, uh, so when I came out of surgery, I didn' ; t realize that I couldn' ; t walk because the nurses tried to--they put those belts [gestures tying a belt around her waist] on you when you' ; re going to go and make you go to the restroom, etc., you know, when you' ; re [unintelligible] and when I went to get out the bed, I fell straight to the floor. Thank goodness I had belts on me, because the two nurses and all the surgeons come running in, and I lost everything from the waist down. Had to learn how to walk all over again. It took me--they said " ; Diania, you' ; re going to have to learn patience." ; And I' ; m not one with patience, let' ; s put it that way. I do have patience for other people, but not for myself. So, I didn' ; t know what to do and the Acjachemen people had sent me a newsletter, and my mom brought it up, and on the front cover of that newsletter that was next to the, my bed in the hospital was Lillian Robles. She' ; s an elder. She' ; s passed on before, but she had a basket hat on. And I saw the basket hat and I went " ; Oh, great. I guess to learn patience, I guess I can get into basketry." ; LK: Oh-- DC: And I never was in it. I was more in the Indian education. I was more into the helping with the activities. My mother was a weaver. My aunts were weavers, their jewelry, they' ; re always crafting with their hands. I was not. They always pushed me away, and said " ; Diania, you know, we' ; re need--we need you in education. We need you speaking for our people." ; And so when I called, I looked at that, and I called Teeter Romero who was a top weaver from the Acjachemen people, and she--her and I were really close, worked together for years, with Indian education-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―Inter-tribal Council of California, I mean, the different areas, you know, for the people, Indian people. And I called her, and let her know that, um, I need to become a weaver. Well, she started laughing on the phone, when I called from the hospital, because she didn' ; t know where I was at. LK: She laughed at you? DC: Well, she laughed at me, because she said " ; you' ; re not a weaver, you know, you' ; re just not a weaver." ; And then she says " ; Why?" ; And I says " ; Well, I' ; m in the hospital, and I can' ; t walk, and I need to learn patience." ; So, when she heard that, she says " ; okay, when you' ; re able to get home and sit up in a wheelchair, we' ; ll come to you." ; And, they did. I was with my mom here in Escondido, at that time. And they came down. About six months--let' ; s see, I had the operation in April ; they came down in June. And I was being able to sit up in there. I was still trying to learn to walk. I was with a walker. And, they came! And they started, uh--sat down with me, and the first thing they gave me was raffia in one hand and pine needle in the other, and they had me doing the coiling, just to learn to go round and round and round and round, with basketry. From then on, it took me, you know, work--it took me almost two years to learn how to walk again, by myself. I was with a--I couldn' ; t drive. My mom was driving me all over. I had the walker. I got everything back in my left leg, but on my right leg not everything came through. And so, another six to eight months, I was doing acupuncture at Indian Health Council in Rincon, because I didn' ; t want to open up my back again, okay, have another surgery. So, I don' ; t have a lot of feeling in my right foot, from my calf, I think, down. But, I do think it--people don' ; t realize that, you know, that I don' ; t, but that' ; s what put me into retirement, really. LK: How many years ago was that? DC: Okay. When did 9/11, what year was that? 2001? LK: That was ' ; 01. DC: Okay, ' ; 01. LK: 09. DC: Because, yeah, April of ' ; 01, because I remember I was still in bed and my mom got a call from her sister and my mom come running in to my bedroom, trying to insist I turn the TV on, and what she says--my mom was crying and I looked at that and there it was when I saw the airplane hit. They had that going on the towers and it was like looking at a movie. LK: Yeah. DC: Okay. That was just unbelievable. Okay? So, that was April, September, okay. It was--that' ; s how I can remember. I can never remember the year, but I just think it' ; s the year of 9/11. So twenty-oh-one, right? LK: Yeah, 21 years ago. DC: Yeah, so it was 21 years ago. I was still on--I have been on social security disability, because I can' ; t sit that long. So, if I get up on you guys, and take a break, then I' ; m sorry, you know, but that--My, my job was an accountant, and so that was sitting a lot. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then to get up and sit and get up is one of the things. So, uh, that' ; s how I got into basketry and I' ; m still doing that today, you know, on that. But, it' ; s taken me learning different things, you know, getting--you want me to go into California Indian Basket Weavers Association? LK: Yeah, I― DC: [laughs] okay, okay. LK: I was going to ask that--I--but I wanted to go back, just for a minute-- DC: Okay. LK: --to Indian education. DC: Mm-hmm. LK: So, I think you said it' ; s still going on to this day. You still, they still have that educational program in San Juan Capistrano. DC: Yeah, they still have the Capistrano Unified School District and it' ; s going still strong, but they have to be the parents that have to want it. LK: Ah, okay. DC: It doesn' ; t just stay with the Acjachemen people. And they do have, I think they have a resource instructor there, someone in their administration, that they do go out for. Because it is a fund. It' ; s funding, it' ; s federal funding. All school districts need money― LK: Right. DC: ―and it' ; s a head count. And so, Capistrano Unified School District still has it, so does Huntington Beach, because they have a large community of the Cherokee Indian― LK: Oh! DC: ―outside natives coming in, because a lot of people don' ; t realize, that if they do start researching, you can go into 1963. They had the Relocation Act, of Native Americans. And, this isn' ; t taught in schools. This isn' ; t taught in--you know, for the general public, sometimes, unless you' ; re involved with Native Americans and their--and the different things. Well, 1963 they relocated Cherokee, Choctaw, and a lot of different native groups into California. LK: Oh-- DC: You know, a lot of the Cherokees went to the Anaheim area, Huntington Beach area, and settled there. You had a lot of the Cherokee, Osage, and some coming down to San Diego. The largest Choctaw Relocation is in Bakersfield. LK: I' ; ll be darned. DC: So, yeah, it' ; s a--it was--it' ; s interesting, uh, how they did move native people around to get them away from their " ; homeland" ; and give them incentives at that time that " ; we can move you to California. You know, you can emerge into there" ; and stuff. And so a lot of it is kind of detrimental but with them, they brought their, they brought their culture and their tradition with them, which is good. LK: So, if you could see something change in regard to that educational program, what would it be? Would it be to expand it to San Diego County? Would it be-- DC: Well, San Diego County had a big--has a big Indian education program. They did--they--you just don' ; t hear about it― LK: Okay. DC: ―um, in their school district. What it would be good to expand on there is that, um, to get it more to the public, to the other schools, okay. It takes a school district to want it. I' ; ve notified Oceanside. I' ; ve notified Vista. In Vista alone, a few years ago, they identified another 200, because now they have that on their information form of the child' ; s registers, you know, what ethnic group you are. And 210 had registered as Native American. It doesn' ; t mean they' ; re, you know, San Luis Rey or California. They can be from anywhere in the United States. And most of them that do register for their ethnic group know that they are, or they' ; ve been told that they are. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it gets a parent, it' ; s gotta be a parent to initiate it, to get a parent group together, and that way they can work with the school district. And then they can apply for grants. And then they can get the head count. Then they can get a resource instructor in there, or someone to work with the Indian education, and then it comes in with tutoring. That was one thing I did. I knew for, just for reading and math, at least. Get the children on the tutoring. They have the tutoring. They were pulled out of class or they brought the equipment in, if they needed equipment. There, Capistrano Unified School District, we' ; ll go back to that. It was shown as a need. Getting the general books that they need into the libraries. That' ; s how that resource center started, because the school districts will only go by what the state says, for state books, state history books, they―etc. The Native peoples say " ; No, that' ; s not correct. We will want our own books coming in." ; So that' ; s what we did in the 70s. We brought in records. At that time, you didn' ; t have CDs or you know, what we had, you know, you had-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: LPs. And so we brought in records of the singing of the different groups. They brought in books that the teachers can get through, or parents could check out, you know, and working with that to get the education in there. And you have to have the school district to want to work with you. Um, we--it was a hard thing, with, even with Capistrano Unified School District, to do it. But if I didn' ; t have the help with Kogee Thomas and some of the top people that come from back east, that were very strong in their native cultural, that I don' ; t think that Capistrano would have done it either. ' ; Cuz we challenged them. We challenged them, so-- LK: But, how enriching for the students. DC: It is, but you got to have again, you gotta have a parent― LK: Right. DC: ―who would want that, so their student or their child can get that extra help. LK: There has to be a buy-in for it, with the parent. DC: Yes, and so it' ; s, it' ; s--today, in Capistrano Unified School District, the ones that do use it--I know my grandchildren went through it--they provided the computers at home for the tutoring. You know, they didn' ; t have to go to like a trailer, or be pulled out of class, and be taken, you know, like to a tutorial room like we did in the 70s. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Uh, with the st--with my two children, my daughter used it and they had computers at home. The school district provided these computers, these laptops for the home that they could use and they got tutored every day, since they were in grade school. All the way through high school. LK: Wow. It gave them a really good sense of self. DC: It gave a sense of self, and they--at first it was " ; why do we have to do this for half an hour every day?" ; [laughs] I mean, but as they got older in high school, and then went to college, you know, especially going through all those tests that you have to take for college, they, they were happy because they knew a lot of the questions and were able to answer them. Because of the tutorial they had, um, above and beyond what they normally get in school, in class. LK: Wow. That' ; s wonderful. So, you' ; ve already explained a little bit about your life' ; s path, how it' ; s evolved and changed over the years, so I was going to ask you if you wanted to share a little bit more about the basketry and CIBA, and I see that you have a little sample of one. DC: [laughs] Ok. When you said CIBA, I don' ; t think everybody knows what CIBA is, okay. You' ; re familiar with it. CIBA is California Indian Basket Weavers Association. Um, that' ; s another thing that I have been a member of and I' ; m on the Board for the last umpteen years, I would say--let' ; s just say the last 12 years. I know it' ; s been longer. Uh, but how I got involved in that, again, was going back to when I became basket--learning basketry and the plants, finding out that southern California doesn' ; t have everything that they normally have. If you know the county here, we' ; ve got 18 reservations here in the San Diego County alone and the people--where they were sent--aren' ; t on their homelands. I mean-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It' ; s not where they would have their medi--their medicinal plants, their foods, or their traditional cultural plants like basketry and other things, and so they had--the people had to go off the reservations, and to public lands, which would be your forestries, um, county parks, state parks, etc., even private land, to get the materials that they need for the basketry. Well, I had a problem with that because I didn' ; t understand that, you know, and why did they have the restrictions here in southern California when I found out that in central California, they don' ; t have that. In northern California they don' ; t have the same restrictions. But it' ; s because a lot of these central reservations or rancherias in northern California, too, is that they' ; re on their homelands. They' ; re rancherias. They weren' ; t like taken from one area and moved. Okay. They' ; ve had little rancherias, then. That' ; s what they called them, instead of reservations, up in northern California, spread out. And so they were on their lands and they had the traditional materials. LK: Oh, I see. DC: For example, you' ; ve got the Yuroks and the Hoopas up there. They' ; re in the forest up there. They have the red for--the, the redwoods. They got the forest. They' ; ve got a lot of their plants. And that' ; s their economic development. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But, that' ; s―they don' ; t call them reservations. They call them rancherias. Okay, so, so I started asking questions about that. You know, I' ; d say " ; how come, what for?" ; And I went to a gathering of CIBA, because they have a large gathering once a year for the basket weavers of the state of California, and I started asking " ; how come, what for, why is it that in California we don' ; t have this, when you have it up there?" ; And then I was told by a board member, " ; Well, Diania, you keep asking these questions. Why don' ; t you--we' ; re having a Board election. Why don' ; t you throw your hat in, your name, and we can see what we can do?" ; Well, I got elected. You know, I mean, I didn' ; t expect that at all. And I' ; ve been on it ever since, since 2003. And, uh, so I became an advocate of, for southern California, to get in, our traditional trading, you know, gathering, etc., our traditional materials, you know, on that. And so, if I didn' ; t enjoy what I' ; m doing and have a passion for it, you know, I think learning about my traditional materials that we use for basketry, which is hard to find here in southern California, if you don' ; t get somebody to help you, you know, with that. And, um, so I think being educating people has helped me. LK: Um, the traditional materials are hard to find because of development? They' ; ve all been-- DC: Yes, uh-- LK: --plowed over or-- DC: Um, there' ; s a--[reaching to her left for a brochure with the front cover reading " ; Indian Rock Project" ; ] okay, let me just see, I' ; m just going to go through here. This here, this is Indian Rock Project, okay. This is something that we worked with the Cal St--uh, San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians and Cal State San Marcos worked together with Palomar College to do, to put this book out. This was done in 2003, which was a long time ago. But in here, in this book, let me just--[flipping through pages]--the--when you see what they--when you ask me about, uh--[looking at a particular page]--uh, where is it? [flips through more pages] And then you all--she' ; s probably going to edit this, but that' ; s okay. Because I was asked that question that you were just asking, and [still flipping through pages] LK: About the natural-- DC: I found it. Okay, I had said here, on here " ; preserving tradition" ; and this is, you know― [turning the booklet to Linda to show her the specific pages]--I ended up being in the booklet, okay, okay, on this Indian Rock Project [shows front cover] You could probably go online, you know, and download it, because they don' ; t have any more of these booklets. But, when you asked me that question, I said [she' ; s reading from the booklet] " ; a lot of our things are being destroyed. If you look at our environment around us, we have development, development, development. Juncus and all the plants that we use for actually making the baskets are being destroyed. When we are out driving, we stop, we get out there, and we take pictures. I want to find a spot, notify the nearest reservations, notify the Forestry, notify the developers--" ; Can we go in? Can we pick? Can we transplant? Because if you are going to develop it and destroy it, let us go in." ; That was a statement that I had made, you know, for--for, for, like an interview for this booklet. So-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then it went on [flipping through booklet again] into who I am or whatever. But, um, yes, the development. And so more developers now are finding out that if you do have--if you do identify traditional materials and stuff, they are now trying to hopefully preserve ' ; em, or to have you come in and take them, or use them. But it is. Southern California is, gets hit with a lot of development because you look around here and you' ; re looking at it. I' ; m looking at the Mission San Juan--Mission, excuse me, San Luis Rey Mission. If you ever go by there, and stuff like this, you' ; ll see we had wetlands there right next to it, and through the Lavanderia and right next to the Mission, what' ; s happening now? The Mission leased it out, or sold it, whatever you want to say--99-some years. You' ; ve got this big, huge retirement center going in there. It' ; s like a resort. They are built on the wetlands, and uh, there went something that was natural, native, etc., and it' ; s being developed. You drive around to different places now, here in San Diego County, and you' ; re seeing development. So, it' ; s really hard on-- LK: Everywhere you look. DC: Yeah, and I just don' ; t understand, for me, where they' ; re getting their water from. Because if we have a resource of, of water--that' ; s one of the things that we don' ; t have here in southern California. We have to bring it in from other places. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: How can you develop and, and, and bring in people, more and more people, so how are you going to give them water? Feeding you know--if you' ; re going to feed, you' ; ve got the grocery stores yet, or whatever. You still can' ; t even have farmland any more hardly, but water. Water is essential for all living things. So, where they come, the water? I mean, the lease on the Colorado River is coming up. That was only a 99-year agreement. How are they going to negotiate that, if they want to stop the Colorado River from coming in? You know, I know they' ; re doing desalting plant, but that' ; s not even good for the ocean, you know, and not even good for us as people. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: So, um, that' ; s a big question that I ask. Every time I drive around and see these developments, you know, and it' ; s money. It' ; s politics and money. Okay, we can go on. We won' ; t go into that--[laughs] LK: Well, going back to the baskets-- DC: Okay. LK: Can you tell us some of the natural fibers that you use, natural plants you use in the baskets. DC: Okay. LK: The traditional-- DC: --Traditional plants. In the state of California, we have over 243 different tribes, 26 different dialects of language, and each one of the--in California, it' ; s kind of divided up, like in northern, central, and southern, and we all don' ; t use the same plants. Here in southern California, we basically use about five. And that would be Juncus textilis, which is a green reed that grows near water. It needs water. It' ; s like a tule, if you' ; ve seen tule in― LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―these wetlands, and stuff, or at these lakes, lagoons, but it' ; s not cornered or-- Tule has three--is three-sided. Juncus textilis, is round. It' ; s a round reed, and it grows up straight. It could--If you know how crab grass grows, it has, is that right? How it goes--what do you call that [gestures with her right hand, pointing straight and making curves in a snake-like fashion]-- you know, you pull it out of the shoots-- LK: Uh-huh. DC: --you know, like crab grass-- LK: Yeah. DC: And, anyway, uh, depending on where it' ; s growing at and the materials that are in the--minerals--excuse me--that are in the soil, the bottom of the root type of thing, where the shaft comes out of there, the reed comes out of that shaft, it' ; ll have color on it. And it' ; s either from a deep light brown, mahogany color, to a deep red mahogany color. And, I didn' ; t bring any of those baskets with me. I was going to, okay, but maybe I should have, but I didn' ; t. If you ever notice some of the traditional baskets, you' ; ll see this deep red color or brown color-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That' ; s usually coming from the Juncus on the, on the end of the shaft on there, bottom part, which is in the ground. It' ; s green when you plant--It' ; s green when you collect it. You have to process it. It takes time. It grows with poison oak. That' ; s another thing. We call it--it' ; s our protector. The only time we go and gather the Juncus textilis is when we say the poison oak goes to sleep, and that only means that the leaves are gone. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it' ; s still going to be contaminated, probably, with poison oak. And that' ; s why we don' ; t teach it as much, because some people don' ; t want to be dealt with, with poison oak. That' ; s what, that' ; s the reed that we use for coiling. Okay? And that takes a process, splitting, etc., and getting it ready. It takes anywhere from six months to a year to even get your material ready to do a basket. The next one that we use for our start would be the center, which is the center of the basket, is yucca. And that, again, is that--what is it, yucca--uh, the Whippi? Or they call it the " ; Lord' ; s Candle." ; It think you' ; ve seen it down by the road. You' ; ll see it growing on the hillsides. There' ; s different ways to use that. Some people will take the dead leaves, those great big green ones that they have and they grow pretty, even from the agave-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC:--and the yucca. When you see those dead ones, or dried out, in the desert, etc., you can take those and you can soak them really, really big in a big tub, and then you take that, and you pound it. And you just keep pounding it, when they' ; re--you know, when you' ; re drying them. And they' ; ll--they' ; ll turn fibrous, like string-- LK: Oh. DC:--and that' ; s how you get your yucca sandals, and things like that, that they use in fiber, or your cordage. The other way you can do is with the yucca is you take the center of the new shoots that are coming out, before it becomes a flower in the stalk. [gestures up with an open hand] You take that, and you twist it, and you get about 30 or 40 small, small [gestures to indicate smallness of an object] little leaves, and then you take those and you shred ' ; em with a needle--we do--or pound them, and uh, you don' ; t need to go out there anymore because you' ; re not going to make 30 or 40 bags in your lifetime, as far as I know. I' ; m not going to. But you have enough to where you don' ; t have to go out there and gather them. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Then, deer grass. People use deer grass as a native plant for decoration or whatever, because it' ; s drought tolerant. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it' ; s not that Pampas grass that you see waving from that Africa--that African one is an invasive plant. I wish people would just take it away, and these nurseries--just take it out, you know get it--because that Pampas grass kills everything on the native plants. It just takes over. And deer grass is similar to it, but it doesn' ; t have that fan on the top. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And, uh, the deer grass, we gather that and we take the shoots or the stems on them, and we gather, and that' ; s what we coil around [gestures in a coiling fashion with both hands] So, the traditional, for the Mission baskets they called here that the Luiseño use, Cahuilla use, Kumeyaay use, the Cupeno use here in southern California, even the Chumash further up, and your Tongva and your different people. We do a coiling technique. Okay? So have you ever seen those baskets in museums, etc., you' ; ll see that one by one, they' ; re coiling. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They' ; re coiling the Juncus textilis. They' ; re coiling around with sticks that they use, which would be deer grass. And the center star that you see in the middle [creates a circle with her fingers on her left hand] is done with yucca. And sometimes it' ; s also done with Juncus on Juncus, or Juncus on Deer Grass. It all depends who the weaver is, etc. Since we have to gather that, and we can' ; t find it all over, you know what we do, we try to really work with the forestries, and private owners, and people. Try and get them to plant. It' ; s not easy to plant the Juncus textilis because it' ; s not going to grow everywhere. So, there' ; s different areas that do have it. If you want to see Juncus textilis, where it' ; s at, you can see it in the public, it' ; s in the public discovery center there in Carlsbad. LK: Oh. DC: They have a good--kind of like a little garden, that they have it growing there. And the deer grass and the yucca. And that was done because we worked with the Discovery Center years ago with Cal State San Marcos and the students. And we did all the planting there, when it was there. So, if you want to see that, I would go there and visit it. And you can see what the Juncus textilis looks like. See, uh--[sighs]--but doing basketry is that--what I have here is samples. I did bring a basket. I just brought these hair pieces that I' ; ve made for my two granddaughters [shows beautiful, small round woven hairpieces]. Can you see them okay?--LK: Yes, yes. DC: Out of Juncus. If you see, this one here is a little bit darker, and the black there [now holding only one of the hairpieces, with a woven black ring in the mid-region of the weave, and gesturing to this area] is dyed Juncus, okay? Now, that Juncus, um, was dyed with--[looking at the hairpiece now, more intensely]--I don' ; t know, this was given to me, [chuckling] the dyed Juncus, so I' ; m assuming they did it with, um, elderberry leaves, okay, and um, put in the Juncus, and in a can, okay, or, or like a coffee can that' ; s all rusty. And what you do--you put the rusted can in there. You have your Juncus already split and put into the weaver, and then you put, um, into a coffee can [gesturing to show the size of the can] and it' ; s all rusty. You put some rusty nails in it at the bottom, and then you start layering it with the Juncus textilis. It' ; s the process. And on top of that you put elderberry leaves, and you keep going ' ; til you fill it. [gestures indicating layers building up] Then you fill it with water. LK: Oh. DC: And then you let the water--and then you put that can somewhere so it can ferment. It' ; s like I tell you, it' ; s got to get all yucky and like, rotten, and what it is is that it probably turns black. And it' ; s--and you' ; re getting the iron--what do you call that? Iron oxide?-- LK: Uh-huh. DC: --from the, from the nails and from the rusty can. Then when you empty it out, your Juncus is black. LK: Wow. DC: Dyed black. And that' ; s also what' ; s coming from the elderberry leaves. Another way that our ancestors did it was that during the creeks they knew where there was iron oxide in the soil, in the sand. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They would get their Juncus, and they would bury it in that sand. They' ; d come back, weeks later or whatever, and dig it out, and it' ; ll be black. Another way they do it, up in northern California, and in here too, is using walnuts, because we had, you know--black walnuts is a native plant of California. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And so they would take the shells, crunch ' ; em up, you know shells, the outside shell, they' ; re called, and if you' ; ve ever picked walnuts, you know that your hands get black? LK: Yeah. DC: Okay, because that--on the hull--because you take that, well they' ; ll take that hull and chop it up, and then put in water, and put your Juncus in there, and with the walnut there, and they' ; ll turn black, too. LK: Wow. DC: That' ; s just one other way. It takes time. And they also use the acorn husk, or the shell of the acorn, and the black acorn, or any of the acorns, crush ' ; em up again and put them in water, put the Juncus in there, and then you have to leave it. So it is a time consuming deal. So these are two headpieces I did. Now, when we get to the schools--when you get to the school-- [holds up a small woven basket] this is a little basket that I' ; ve had for years. But this is not a native material. This material that we use for teaching is from, okay, rattan. Everybody knows what rattan is. Rattan has a pith in it. Rattan and bamboo look similar but bamboo is hollow. Rattan is got the pith. To get the pith out of the rattan, pull it, press it, and make cane. This is how you get cane. LK: Oh. DC: And so what we use here, is that you can buy cane in different rounds, or different sizes or gauges. You can get it flat. You can get it round. Uh, we get the round, and this is called Cherokee Single Wall twine. I call it, uh--we have our own twine, excuse me, but it' ; s not like this one, the Luiseño. And why I use Cherokee is because one of the easiest ones that the kids can use at school. It' ; s the closest thing that I can get to the river cane, from the Cherokee and Choctaw and the people there, in Oklahoma and that area, will use, because they go and pick their river cane. We don' ; t have river cane here in California. If we do have it, I wouldn' ; t want to go down there because it' ; s probably contaminated. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It' ; s got all those other things, and they probably sprayed it a lot with pesticides. And so this is what we teach in school, and I call it " ; Cherokee Single Walled Twine." ; We make the starts. The kids can make one of these [holding up a skein of yarn] within an hour, even the adults, over two hours. And maybe not this size, maybe a little bit bigger. But this way, they don' ; t have any allergies or con― such so far, uh, getting sick from it. Because, I can' ; t guarantee our native traditional plants that we do use aren' ; t--it doesn' ; t have some type of pesticides on it, or some poisons on it that we' ; re not aware of. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And we use our mouth [wipes her right hand across her mouth] a lot for our third hand when we' ; re weaving with our traditional materials. LK: Because you have to keep them-- DC: We have to keep them very moist. LK: Moist. DC: Everything has to moist. It has to be pliable. It has to be moist. If you' ; re going to be weaving with almost anything, even with cloth, even with weeds, even with flowers or stems or, you know, branches. We do use willow, though, okay? Aurora willow, or the willow tree. We make baskets out of that too. If you ever notice the big acorn granaries, they call ' ; em, have you ever seen them on pictures-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --that the tribes had next to their kiichas or their ewaks for here in southern California, even northern California. They have great big acorn granaries. Those are made out of willow. They' ; re woven green, and when they' ; re woven green, uh, then they let―they dry. But do they use willow? Willow is a natural insecticide. It keeps the insects away from the acorns. And that' ; s why they have them high up on a stilt like, or platform, to keep their small animal away from them, or whatever. But if they do―these small animals try to get to the acorn, then they can also plug it up, or whatever. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But those acorn granaries can last for hundreds of years, you know. They' ; ve found, when they' ; ve done research, you know, in the mountains or at their villages, you' ; ll see a granary that is still up. But, it' ; s a natural insecticide. People don' ; t realize that the willow is a natural insecticide-- LK: That' ; s interesting. DC: --to weave with it. LK: So, in traditional weaving, was it always the women, the tribal women, that did the baskets or did men-- DC: I would say-- LK: --create baskets as well? DC: Uh, yeah. Traditionally, mostly it was the women and the girls, okay? Because you' ; ve got to think about--before contact, especially here in California, we' ; re the last native people that were contacted as they came west-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―our baskets were used for cooking, for storage, for gifting, for birthing, for death. And that was our--they were utilized for everything. And that' ; s why they can say that " ; Mission baskets were woven so tight that they can hold water." ; LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Well, yes and no. The only reason why they can hold water is that the deer grass in what they' ; ve coiled around swells. [laughs] LK: Oh. DC: So, but they also had the--and when they cooked in them, they used another plant that we do. It' ; s more fire resistant. And that' ; s your Trius lobata, or your sumac. And that' ; s kind of―it' ; s white. Have you ever seen baskets that have more of a white bottom to it? LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That' ; s because it' ; s usually with sumac, and that one has a resistance to fire. But, only be--resistance, how can I say this--fire tolerant but not to a point. When they cooked in baskets, the cooking baskets, they were done with a stick that they' ; d keep moving [circles her right arm as if stirring], and they were used with river rocks, hot rocks in there. Central northern California used lava rocks a lot, but that had been tumbled in the rivers. But the ones that are here, we would probably get the smooth river rocks, and then you heat them up and then you put them into the basket, and you have to keep stirring them [makes a stirring motion with her right hand] into that food. Men probably did the baskets that were, um, that were for fishing, like the fish traps, or your great big, huge granaries,―LK: Oh, yeah. DC: Okay, on that? And they' ; re made out of the willow. Um, they didn' ; t make them--northern California, they made ' ; em a lot of out of the different plants up there, the branches there. But, almost all of them are made out of willow, you know, because it was pliable to work with. But, that' ; s your bigger gathering baskets or fish traps, etc., you know. But mainly, it' ; s mostly the women. But men did do that. We do have men today that are top weavers, um, so, we even have one in our tribe that' ; s a fantastic weaver [chuckles]. LK: So, it' ; s a form of functional art. I mean, ' ; cuz it is a form of art. That' ; s what-- DC: Well, it didn' ; t become a form of art until it--until I would say, after contact-- LK: Right. DC: --because it was a utility that we had to use, you know. It was something. LK: Right. It was functional. DC: Yeah, and I say, you know, when pots and pans came out, I, I would have been one that threw the baskets away. [laughs] Let' ; s use a pot, too, you know. LK: [laughs] DC: It' ; s just like when you gather your foods, you know. I gather the acorn and I make that wiiwish, we call it, the acorn mush. I use a processor to crack all my--you know, to mix it up, you know, and get the nuts, ground it down. You know, if you ever see these, um,--how can I say these--we call them gathering, gathering spots or metates are these big rocks that have the holes in them--the grinding area, they call ' ; em grinding stones, grinding-- Can you imagine the woman that' ; s sitting there, or a child, or whatever, pounding acorn to get a meal out of it, you know, to get it real fine like a flour. And, and how long they pound it up there to get those holes in there. How old! You can just tell the age of the--by looking at these grinding areas, or grinding rocks that you see, how, how hard they must have done it, so it just--it didn' ; t happen overnight, to make those holes, you know, in those rocks. It had to be― LK: Right. DC: [gesturing in a pounding motion] ―years and years of processing. And, uh, I' ; ve tried it. We have two in our backyard, and I didn' ; t last five minutes. Raising that rock, that pestle, over my head and pounding the acorn, okay? I mean, I couldn' ; t, after that, I couldn' ; t raise my hand after five minutes, or even three minutes. My mom was laughing at me out there― LK: [chuckles] DC: ―you know, and I said " ; Our women must have had--the women must have had shoulders and-- LK: Strong arms. DC: --biceps, strong arms, to do that, daily, every day, to get the acorn to get it ready for the mush because that was a staple for the people, you know, because the acorn--wiiwish, we call it--or the, um, what do they call it, with the Kumeyaay, um--we call it wiiwish, they call it, um, okay, I' ; ve got to think about it. I know it starts with an ' ; s.' ; But anyway, um, everyday. Because, see, that' ; s 100% protein. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The acorn is 100% protein. So, it was a staple and it was also a replacement for when they didn' ; t have any meat, you know, so it was always used. So, when these processors came through, they said " ; Diania, how come you don' ; t do it the traditional way?" ; I said " ; Uh-uh" ; [shaking her head] I said " ; my ancestors would have popped in that, those electrical things to plug in, they would have used it too." ; I said " ; There' ; s no way I' ; m going to go out there and you know, [she and Linda start laughing] and pound." ; I mean it' ; s kind of like a joke but it' ; s, it' ; s, it' ; s, it' ; s--you know, you know, when progress comes, I' ; m sure they, they would have--they wouldn' ; t have stayed with their old ways. That' ; s how I look at it. [chuckles] LK: Circling back, you mentioned a few institutions like Cal State San Marcos, The Discovery Center in Carlsbad, CIBA, and you' ; re part of the Pesticide― DC: Oh, Tribal― LK: ―with the National Parks? DC: Well, I belong also to the Tribal Pesticide Program Council through EPA. And that' ; s because of the pesticides and insecticides and stuff that effect our, our plants. A lot of people don' ; t realize that, when they see our traditional plants, they think they' ; re weeds. LK: Oh. DC: And they' ; ll spray them. Or also, that, um―there' ; s drifts that happen and if you have native plants that are growing near there, and you' ; re not aware of the native plants that are there, and if how they' ; re spraying, and if the wind comes up [she makes a " ; whoosh" ; sound, and waves her hand in a broad sweep to indicate wind over field], the drift will go over there. There' ; s no signs that tell you that " ; Hey, we' ; re going to be spraying today!" ; LK: Mm-hmm. DC: County doesn' ; t even tell you that, I mean, unless they come around, you know. The mosquitoes, like in Central California, Sacramento, they post it, because with all those rice fields that they have up there, they have to. They have to do that, spraying for the mosquitoes. And they do it by helicopter. And I' ; ve been up there when they' ; ve done that, and they' ; ve got notices all over―" ; Shut Your Windows" ; , " ; Shut Your House" ; , " ; Stay in Your House Between This Hour and This Hour" ; ― because they' ; re coming in and just sprayin' ; and it goes all over your cars, etc., out there. In the University of Davis, Woodland, in that area. So, but they don' ; t do that too much down here, okay. So, when you don' ; t know about it, and then you see the plants and you' ; re going to go through it, you don' ; t know if it' ; s been sprayed or anything, or drifted on. And then you pick it, and then you get it, and you put it in your mouth, or whatever, you smell it to see if it is, you get hit. And I' ; ve had, that' ; s how I got into pesticides. I went to pick a plant that I thought that the only way you can identify it is to smell it, so I popped it [gestures breaking a stem open] like you know you see you pop it, and I stuffed it up one nostril and within five minutes my whole side of my face went red [gestures a swipe across right side of her face]. Rushed in to Rincon Indian Health Center. They said " ; Diania, what did you do?" ; I says " ; okay, this is where I was at." ; And, I had a chemical reaction, that it was sprayed, that it somehow got sprayed. And so I was on―the first time I got steroids, and shot with steroids and it' ; s five-four-three-two-one [gestures counting on fingers], you know, you' ; re taking all those pills, five days. Found out that the golf courses are the worst [chuckles] people, or development, or whatever, that use herbicides, pesticides, insecticides, any type of your " ; cides" ; they said, because they want to keep their grass green and they want to keep their flowers beautiful and colorful. They don' ; t want any rodents. They don' ; t want anything upsetting that golf course out there. And if you have any native plants that are near there, uh, they' ; re probably going to get hit with that type of thing. And the golf course is another one that doesn' ; t tell you that they' ; re spraying. I don' ; t, I' ; ve never gone by a golf course that said " ; Hey, we' ; re spraying today. There' ; s a sign." ; And I worry about the people that are out there golfing, okay. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, and I love to watch golf. Don' ; t get me wrong. I mean, I enjoy, I' ; m not a golfer but I love watching the Masters and stuff. And it goes through my head, when these guys are out there, and the women, you know, and they' ; re walking in it, but you don' ; t know if they' ; ve been told about the spraying, or you know, if they have an asthma thing, or, or something like that. So what happened was that I got into pesticide with CIBA. [chuckles, and reaches to her left for a brochure] So then I was working, we worked with a brochure [laughs, and shows for the camera a brochure, then reads the front of it] they call, it' ; s called " ; Pesticides: What Basket Weavers Should Know." ; But, this doesn' ; t just tell you for basket weavers. It' ; s for everybody― LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―okay? And the contact people [flips the brochure over, and points to the back side of the brochure] like for here in Southern California, you' ; ve got the contact if you' ; ve had this. It just tells you what to look for on native plants, if they look dead, if they' ; re doing anything. [opens brochure and looks inside] I' ; m trying to get EPA right now to try to start making us some more of these, but if I have some more, [turns the inside of the brochure to face the camera] like if I gave you, you know, some handouts that you could make your own, you know. They don' ; t have to be in color. [closes brochure, but still holds it up] But, it' ; s just an awareness about pesticides when you' ; re out there. And it, you don' ; t have to be gathering. You can just be taking a trail ride out there, or hiking. Your animals could come back with pesticides or insecticides on them, and then you have your kids rubbing them [gestures petting an animal], and playing with them, and hugging them, and then you wonder also why your child is coming out with a rash. Why are they coughing? Why are they sneezing? And so, most of the time, it' ; s some type of spraying and it' ; s out there. So I sit on that, that, across the United States, we' ; ve got all the tribes. But the bigger tribes like the, your Black Feet and your Crow, etc. you know, they, they lease their land, because they' ; ve got millions of acres on their reservations. So they lease their lands to Montanyo [sounds unsure]. One of that does soy beans, and corn, and all these big guys. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But they need to have the pesticides, but they' ; re trying to regulate it more so especially on native ground or Indian country, because, um, they don' ; t want to be digesting it. They don' ; t want this corn and everything that is going out to the public to be digested, because if you go on to a lot of your other farms and stuff like this, they' ; re not telling you what the pest―what is being used. But the, in the Indian country, they want to make sure it' ; s safe. They don' ; t want to get sick. They don' ; t want their own families to get sick. So, it' ; s a big political thing. But what had happened in northern California, how this--how CIBA became involved in the 90s, about ' ; 93, is that the weavers in northern California get their―they use a lot of roots. LK: Mmm-- DC: And they use a lot of willow roots. So, during the―on the rivers of northern California, they go high. But when they recede down, that' ; s when the roots stick out from the, from the banks where all the willow trees are growing. And so they go into the water, and they' ; re picking from the banks of the river, all the roots coming out [gesturing pulling something towards her]. LK: Uh-huh. DC: Okay? When you kind of think of, when the water is high [gestures raising up as in water level], this is where the roots are going. They' ; re going to get water for the, for the trees. Well, industry up nor―up, up river, where they call, where they, where it is coming down into the river, they were dumping chemicals into the water-- LK: Hmmm-- DC: --as a dump. You' ; re talking about the lumber mills, some of the uh, other industrial things are doing it. That' ; s what was stuck in the salmon, also. And so the weavers were doing it. Then all of a sudden they were finding their elders the weavers were getting cancer around their mouth [gesturing around her mouth] LK: Oh, no. DC: And they were getting cancer inside. They were losing their teeth [pointing at her teeth]. And they couldn' ; t figure out why. Because it wasn' ; t just happening to just one tribe. It was happening to all the ones that, that were gathering, you know. You' ; re talking the Pomo, the Uroquois, the Hupas, the Kuroks. All the ones that use this type of material. And so in ' ; 93, they found out that, they had EPA come out. They had this whole thing. They wrote a paper on it, a risk assessment, and found out that it was chemicals in the water when they tested the waters on these big ones. And so that started, for CIBA anyway, with the pesticides-- LK: Huh. DC: --to get on there, to be more sort of a―― how can I― a public, you know, awareness. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You can only educate. You can' ; t stop it. You can only, you know. That' ; s why you have all these, um, lawsuits right now, happening in northern California and their waters. Look at the salmon. What' ; s happening, not just in California, but in Oregon and Washington with― because of the chemicals. Uh, you can' ; t, sometimes you can' ; t even eat, you know, some of that salmon because they can' ; t even go upstream, because when they come upstream, they come back sick. And the worst one is in Alaska. LK: Right. DC: See, people don' ; t want to hear about Alaska. But everything that we use down here in, in, in the " ; mainland" ; they call it, the chemicals, anything, okay, it all goes into our atmosphere, right? [points upward with both hands]. I mean, you spray, and it' ; s going to go up. LK: Yep. DC: Okay, when it goes up, where does it go? It goes to the Poles. [gestures as if touching top and bottom of a globe] North Pole, north pole is getting it mostly. South Pole is not as much, because they don' ; t get that drift like they did. But what it did, it collects up here [circles her hand in a rotating motion] in the atmosphere, and what it is, over Alaska in the Arctic area. That' ; s why it' ; s cleaning out too. Because it' ; s just going around, all these chemicals. It, it forms a warmth and a heat. And that why, that' ; s what' ; s, and now when it rains up there, it drops down [laughs, and gestures as if something is falling] into their land and into their trees, and into their plants, and they' ; re contaminated. And it' ; s all because of us down here, meaning, I' ; m saying " ; us" ; , mainland and you know, uh, North, Central, South America, all of us, you know, Europe, that using all these different chemicals and things like this, and drifts up [raises her hands up], collects in that atmosphere up there [circles in the air with her left hand], goes to the North Pole. It' ; s going around and around. It rains, or whatever, and it comes down, [indicates rain coming down, with both hands] and that' ; s why Alaska is having all those problems right now with their food [gestures as if counting on her left hand], climate change, the heating, etc. And, uh, a lot of it is the use of chemicals and pesticides. LK: Well, what started out as a― DC: [chuckles] LK: ―lessons in patience for you― DC: [bursts out laughing] LK: You' ; ve expanded your knowledge to all aspects of basketry and, and working with other organizations. So, I know those aren' ; t the only ones you work with, though, and I can list a couple just to jog your memory. I know you work with Camp Pendleton. DC: Oh, well yeah, well, Camp Pendleton is― LK: And Daly Ranch. DC: Daly Ranch. Well, Daly Ranch was because [sighs] I went to, I went to be a docent. Okay? Because I had to find something to do after, you know, I, and that I, before I had my surgery, I became a docent, and I wanted to do the trails. Okay? The native trails. But when I had, after my surgery, I couldn' ; t do the walking anymore. And so they did have a small " ; Indian program" ; you know, on there. And one of the rangers I, you know, I, I love him dearly, he' ; s still there, we worked together, he was the one that was doing the Native American aspect of the Daly Ranch, what they would give to the public and school district. Fifteen minutes [gestures making air quotes] is all he would have. So I went through his training, on the docents, and he brought in a native person from souther―from Kumeyaay territory, I think, a weaver. I can' ; t think who the weaver is now. She did a display and stuff. And so Ranger Robert, I think I mentioned him, he did a lot, because of his sons were in Boy Scouts, you know, Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Eagle Scouts, and they had to do a lot of the native areas of, on there. So he made a lot of the artifacts that the Daly Ranch uses and I use right now for exhibit. And he learned about the plants, and the foods, etc. Well, he went to serve wiiwish, acorn. And when he served it, it was great. And I just went " ; What?" ; , you know. And it, it was [gesturing as if saying ' ; no' ; with her fingers] I don' ; t know. And I' ; m going asking " ; How did you do this?" ; Well, he used the acorn, but he didn' ; t use the acorns that we normally would use. He used a different type of acorn. And how he fixed it, or whatever. And so, when we had our barbeque when we graduated from the docent class, I went home [laughs] and I made the ______________. This is supposed to look like, okay, you know, our wiiwish does that. And he says " ; well, teach me!" ; So we started working together. Then they asked me if I would come in and do the native American part, you know, with the Daly Ranch. Daly Ranch through the 7th graders and the whole school district, in Escondido School District, they run the 7th graders through there for 6 weeks, in the Daly Ranch, twice a week, like a Tuesday and a Wednesday, from 8 o' ; clock until 2. And we do about two hundred some a day. LK: Wow! DC: I' ; m the native American part of it, and they do plants, and then they do insects, and then they do the large predators, you know, and then they, the tricks. But, I' ; m the native American portion of it. It started out as 15 minutes, and now all of a sudden, now I' ; m doing about 35 minutes, and just expanding it-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --to get them knowing that this was our first―you know, Daly Ranch is on the, one the land of native peoples. There' ; s, there' ; s areas out there on Daly Ranch that the public can' ; t see, that know that they' ; re―they live there. They have artifacts, etc., on that. So, um, and I got asked to, to do that. It' ; s all voluntarily. If I get paid from anything for doing that―I' ; ve been doing that going on 16 years now―it' ; s a surprise for me, because they do it through grants. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: I started out, like I said, volunteering, and it had expanded it to bigger working with Fred Wood, who' ; s a retired school teacher, you know, from a junior high, 8th grade. And I started with my cousin, Kathy Wallace, who' ; s our story teller now, and her son Brandon―he was about 9 or 10 years old―we would do it together. Well, it got to a point to where she expanded out [gestures expansion thrusting her right hand out away from her], you know, he got older. And so, I had Teeter Romero used to come down for me and help me, from San Juan Capistrano. And then, also now, I got it for myself and it' ; s hard to get people to want to take it over. Because the first question they ask " ; Well, how much do you get?" ; And I says " ; Nope." ; I says " ; I can' ; t guarantee you anything on that. If I get paid, it' ; s a surprise for me at the end of the six weeks, depending on how much the grant through--It' ; s through a grant, that they get― LK: Right. DC: ―that. That' ; s to the Friends of the Daly Ranch. Even though the Daly Ranch is owned by the city of Escondido, this Friends of the Daly Ranch and the docents do it because of they want to. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The only ones that really get paid on there is the rangers, because they' ; re employees of the city of Escondido. LK: Right. DC: And uh― LK: But that' ; s not the only institution that you do work. You, you go to elementary schools and― DC: Well, yeah, I have. I did elementary schools. I think, you know, we do―like San Elijo. We' ; ve been doing that for seven years, and that' ; s during that one basket that I just showed you, with the Cherokee style. We do third graders there. [sighs] Before they built that new elementary school, we were doing anywhere from 2 to 300 hundred a day, in well, one day. We had it for 35 minutes, at 70, at the time. And then, because they had a program going. Kathy would be the story teller. They had adobe making. They had―and so these children are going [gestures in a round circle with her right hand] all day, every half hour they' ; re going to another, another thing. I would have four weavers come in to help me. And then we would give a quick 10-minutes, 5-minute thing with parent volunteers, to come in and help to, to and I think you' ; ve even done it before, [chuckles] to just help these students. And so you' ; d have all these third graders in one room, sittin' ; on the floor, on these things, ten, ten to a circle so I know it' ; s seventy, because we had seventy cir―seven circles in there. We' ; d done seventy at the time, forty-five at the time, and then within thirty-five minutes, you know, they' ; re done. If they didn' ; t finish this basket [holds up small basket which can fit in the palm of her hand] in their time, then they would take them with them and complete it in their ar--in their art department students. So we' ; ve been doing that for quite a while. I' ; ve done the thing with Cal State San Marcos with their students up there, giving the demonstrations, etc., given a talk. And then even teaching the students, you know, the basketry. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Same thing with the senior center, in El Corazon [gestures to Linda]. LK: El Corazon. DC: We just did that for three days, and they really enjoyed it. LK: We cannot leave out one other entity, which was the Mission-- DC: --Oh! LK: --San Luis Rey. How could we forget that. DC: [laughs] You know, she' ; s sees, she' ; s getting me into the basketry thing, here. Um, San Luis Rey--people don' ; t understand. San Luis Rey is one of the missions here that is not part of the diocese, or owned by the Catholic Church, per se. They' ; re owned by the Franciscan order of the Catholic Church. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Or, errr, I' ; m not--I' ; m a Catholic, but I' ; m not that kind. I' ; m not a practicing Catholic. Let' ; s put it that way. But, um, so they' ; re owned by the Franciscans. San Luis Rey, Santa Barbara, and there' ; s one more, and I' ; m going to better learn that one too because there' ; s three missions in the state of California that are not part of the " ; Catholic." ; San Juan Capistrano is part of the Orange County diocese. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And they bring in the most money for the missions in the state of California. San Juan Capistrano does, because you' ; ve got to pay to get in, you know, and everything else. But anyway. The friars--well, they' ; re not--they' ; re friars--the Franciscan order, um, are there, at the San Luis Rey Mission. You don' ; t know that they' ; re there, because they' ; re not really public other than when you see ' ; em walking around in their brown robes. They have a retreat there. They live there. They study there. They go through their schooling, sometimes, there at the San Luis Rey Mission. And I was notified by Gwen, the director, and Helena, whose at the museum, that they were having a retreat there. And they wanted a activity, and so Gwen says " ; Contact Diania, and see if they want to do a basketry." ; Well, Father David, or Brother David--he' ; s up at Santa Barbara now--he used to be here at San Luis Rey, and my brother used to work with him. And he knew I did baskets. That' ; s why he probably agreed. But these Franciscans were coming from all over the world. They weren' ; t just coming from the United States. They were coming as novices ; ones that are almost going to graduate into their order ; some that were graduated already into the order ; some that were retiring from the order. Some they didn' ; t speak English. And, um, there was forty, almost fifty of them. LK: Forty-six. DC: Forty-six of them, and they were there for a week [chuckles] And they asked " ; Diania, would you mind doing, you know, a demonstration and talking about the basketry, or people, etc.?" ; My brother videoed it, you know, and I haven' ; t really even seen it yet. I think he gave you a copy, right? LK: It' ; s great. DC: Okay. I have to give Roberta--not Roberta, but Reinette and Ella Sue, I think, also. But, um, I says " ; Okay, I need four weavers, and uh, to do this." ; And we did that in the back of the mission, and here I was expecting--when we were setting up, all of us were expecting--there' ; s Linda Kallas, Ella Sue Snyder (she' ; s a Acjachemen), Reinette (I can' ; t pronounce her last name. My cousin--Reinette Omah, Olvera, but I can' ; t pro--) LK: Olvera. DC: Yeah, but she goes by that Italian married-- LK: Contreras. DC: No, no. It starts with an " ; A" ; [indicates a letter " ; A" ; as if writing in the air]. Anyway. LK: Okay. DC: And you, and me, okay. Linda was--Linda, who was going to interview me, she goes " ; Me?" ; and I says " ; Oh yeah. You know how to do these! You' ; ve been sittin' ; with us for a while. You can come in here." ; And we' ; re going to do the Cherokee style basket. I just gave a talk about our traditional materials, etc. So, we get all set up and here come these men, you know, coming through. You know, I, I was expecting them to come into--with their robes on. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, their brown robes. That' ; s what I was expecting. Here these men come in. They' ; re in shorts. They got T-shirts on that say " ; Surf' ; s Up!" ; you know. All these different things coming home with these hats, sandals, barefoot, you know. I mean, they' ; re coming from the retreat area, you know, tennis shoes on, and all different ages. And it was interesting because I' ; m going " ; Whoa, okay." ; You would have, you would have put them on the street. You would not have known that they were friars, okay. And, uh, like I said, all ages. They had a--we had a good time, laughing, etc. Like I said, we do have that, um, if you knew my brother did with that. They were all anxious. They made beautiful baskets. [laughs] LK: They were so impressed with you, and um-- DC: You know. LK: They were so grateful and so full of gratitude for learning that skill-- DC: Yeah. Well, we took a lot-- LK: They really enjoyed it. DC: Well, we took a picture, a group picture, at the end and then we had all their baskets on top of that one rocker area. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And you can see that these baskets--[turning to her left, and reaching for something] I showed you this [holds up the little basket that she showed previously in the interview] and this is mine. But that doesn' ; t mean that you' ; re going to make the same thing like this. Your basket is, is going to be completely different. Even though they start out the same, your basket will be with what you create with your hands. [puts down basket] And so that' ; s what they were really impressed with, because we had some beautiful baskets. You had some real nice round ones [gestures a round object]. You had flat ones [gestures flat object]. You had long ones [gestures a tall object] and they just had a good time. LK: They cherished them, right? DC: Oh, it was a--it was--it was--it was rewarding, you know, on that. But that' ; s what happens when we do that. We did it with the seniors-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --out there, and they all thought that they were going to be making their own little ba--baskets that we showed them. And then when they finally was looking at it, even the men there, you know, everything was different. And so, that' ; s what I enjoyed about the baskets. Even with the kids, you know, they don' ; t-- No two baskets are alike. LK: Exactly. And, expanding on that, we have the elementary school named Pablo Tac after a Luiseño native that was educated in the Mission. But also, you' ; re--you have an opportunity to demonstrate there coming up, correct? DC: Yes, coming up on November 4th, 2022. I' ; ll be demonstrating and so will Roberta--hopefully Reinette will be there--traditional weaving. We' ; re not going to be teaching. That' ; s probably, hopefully coming up next year. LK: Yes. DC: You know, on that. We just had the demonstration also at Camp Pendleton. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Uh, there. I' ; m a docent for the Santa Margarita Ranch and Lost Forest Ranch, docent there at Camp Pendleton. But I' ; ve been working with the Archaeology department since, uh, ugh, ' ; 90s with Stan Berryman and then Danielle [Page], and now Kelly Bracken is in charge of it so--. Because we have a lot of sites there on ran--on Camp Pendleton. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: People don' ; t realize it, that we' ; ve got over 600 some building sites there, and sites, and sacred sites, etc., on Camp Pendleton, so we' ; re kept close with the--they' ; re kept close with the different tribes. And since I' ; m the weaver in the native plants, I have a different aspect of it. I try to make that, if the plants are out there, please, you know, don' ; t do this with them, and stuff. So, they notify us that if we have native plants there, do you want us to move them. Do you want to collect them, etc. They do have a native garden there that we do collect the deer grass from, which is up there by the pavilion, behind the new hospital. Um, that way I know they' ; re not being sprayed, when we go there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: We just did elderberry tree, um, [chuckles] gathering from the berries, and I made some for your, for you for your husband. I thought I was making jelly, and it ended up being syrup. But he likes, he loves it, you know, ' ; cuz we gathered there at Camp Pendleton, because [chuckles again], because then I know that, um, also those aren' ; t being sprayed. And, so there' ; s different areas by Camp Pendleton. Plus, with the cultural, okay. And why I started with the, the new General, the Commander-in-Chief, there, at --I can' ; t think of it. I just--I worked with her, and um, was--a-- how?--docent there for the Santa Margarita Ranch. They were going to be the ones dealing with the party. She had her fiesta there, a couple weeks ago. And, um, I didn' ; t want to just be the docent dressed in the--how can I say this?-- We dressed in this Spanish shawl. I don' ; t know if you' ; ve seen the docents from center. [gestures to someone other than Linda Kallas, seated to her left] You' ; ve been there, right? And, uh--Tanis. And, uh, we have that costume [still looking to the other person] or the regalia that they use. I' ; m comin' ; in, because I put these on [hold up her necklace] and I' ; m, you know, trying to keep the Native American thing going there. And you heard me [points to person off camera, and continues to talk to him/her] this last meeting, you know, and Larry was over here [points to opposite direction, and laughs]. Uh, it' ; s that, uh, react? That we' ; ve forgotten, you know, on that. And they do think--they kind of forget us. But anyway, and so I says [still talking to the person off camera] " ; I' ; m not going to be a docent. I just--can I come in and do traditional weaving, you know, with our people," ; with her. And she just said [shaking her head]--she says " ; heck yes, please, let' ; s come in" ; and stuff. So, um, I had the drapes on there. I wasn' ; t going to go San Luis Rey Band because we were all San Luis Rey Band members that were going to do this traditional weaving demonstration. But we' ; re all CIBA members also. So, I used this California Basket weavers --uh, weaving drape on our table. They put us up there, you know, with the rest of them, and, um, I had Mark, who is our weaver, one of our top weavers for our tribe. He had--he was demonstrating his baskets. We were all doing a demonstration, and, and appreciating that, you know, on there. That' ; s the last thing we did on the traditional, you know, weaving thing with Camp Pendleton. Then we' ; re going to do this one November 4. LK: And then the Jubilation of the Valley Festival? DC: Oh yeah, we' ; re going to have, coming up in November-- LK: --the Luiseño Day. Mm-hmm-- DC: --Spirit of the Valley-- LK: --Spirit of the Valley. DC: --with Studio Ace. And we' ; re going to be doing baskets there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And I' ; m going to be doing teaching the Cherokee style-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --okay? It' ; s not gonna--it' ; s not Luiseño style. And so we' ; re going to be doing, uh, [sighs] all day [laughs]-- LK: And you' ; ve been invited-- DC: --from 11 to 3. LK: --to do basket weaving at a senior dance at the-- DC: Aw, come on now, [gestures pushing away from herself with her right hand] I know. LK: [laughs] DC: It' ; s just a--thank you, Linda. Um, that' ; s December 15th. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And that' ; s coming in because of the senior center over there. That' ; s just an activity they wanted us to do. Plus, we do basket traditional weaving in front of the Mission, hopefully, every 4th Sunday of the month. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But sometimes we don' ; t, because we have other things to do. So it' ; s almost a contact--they--a website, or contact one of us to do that. We do it at Rancho Guajome, but we' ; ll kind of travel with our weaving person. Um, one of the things I want to say is that I do get feedback sometimes from our own Indian people--" ; why are you in front of the Mission, Diania?" ; okay, you know. Because they see a pictures of the background where we' ; re weaving, and, um--" ; why are you doing it on the, on the Mission grounds?" ; I mean, you have this animosity with some of our people that have gone through the Mission system and their ancestors were really treated bad, etc. I' ; m not going to say the missions were the best things that happened to the indigenous people in the state of California, or even in the other missionaries throughout the, throughout the different tribal people-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --in Indian country. But, I' ; m trying to tell them " ; I' ; ll let you know. I' ; m not there to, to praise the Mission. Don' ; t get me wrong, okay? I have my aspects with them, too, but I' ; m there--we' ; re there, really, to respect and honor our ancestors that are buried there." ; I' ; ve got a lot of family that' ; s buried there in that old cemetery. I know our ancestors had built that mission and helped it. We' ; ve got a lot of ancestors that are buried in those grounds that aren' ; t in the cemeteries. When you had your epidemics, the pox, the small pox epidemic-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --there' ; s a lot of burials in, on those grounds at the Mission that had to do multiple burials real fast. So, we' ; re there honoring our people. I' ; m not there to honor the Mission. And, I have to let them know that. I mean, don' ; t get me wrong. I was raised with the Catholic there. My mom went to school there. My great-grandfather, he was part, you know. Every Sunday it seemed like the Father was always there in his house at the ranch there in the valley, having dinner. But I don' ; t really have that, um, hatred, or whatever you want to call it-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --to the Mission system. Yes, they know that they' ; ve done wrong. My brother and I sit on the committee for the 225 anniversary that' ; s coming up, honoring San Luis Rey Mission. I' ; m there on it, and so is he, to make sure the indigenous people aren' ; t forgotten. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They' ; ve got to have something that' ; s, that' ; s still representing, you know, them with the ethnic group. We have our powwow there that' ; s been there for 23 years, you know. We just haven' ; t had it since Covid. And that' ; s another thing that' ; s on the Mission grounds. You have some of the indigenous people who will not come to our powwow because it' ; s on Indi--on mission grounds. But, to me, that' ; s personal for them. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The Mission has not been at a controversy for us. Yes, we know some of our ancestors were treated wrong, you know. You can walk in that Mission, and, um, you can see different things that, um, and the stories you hear, you know, and the longondria < ; sic> ; that' ; s going down there, where they had to do the washing and stuff. You' ; ve got Pablo Tac. You know, he came from that Mission, and was taught, who can, you know, going back to Barcelona, you know, and Rome also, and is buried over there, and died. But, um, you--we--how can I say this? San Luis Rey Mission, they, the Luiseños around the Mission San Luis Rey weren' ; t as-- LK: It was a-- DC: --progressive as LK: --Luiseño village, correct? DC: Yes, it was a Luiseño village there, but they didn' ; t attempt to burn it down like the Kumeyaay did, at the old--in San Diego. They burned that mission down three times [holds up three fingers]. But it comes with people, and how they took it, um, as a, as a rewards system, or whatever. Okay? They were fed! Can you imagine? I mean, ee were nomads and gatherers and movers. Meaning nomadic, it' ; s not like we moved all over [gestures in a sweeping motion]. It was like we went from ocean to the mountains [points from right to left, indicating movement from west to east] to gather and to the desert [points forward]. You see what I' ; m saying. As being nomadic. We didn' ; t have " ; a permanent" ; village. We knew what village we came from, but if we had to go, you had people that probably stayed there, the elders, and then the rest went out to gather. But we weren' ; t a warring people. Sure, we probably fought with the Kumeyaay and any others that came through. But with the Kumeyaay people, they were warring people. Now, they came from the, from the Colorado area. I mean, you' ; re looking at warriors, you know, came across, and when they were doing that with the missions and stuff, you know, you--they--it was on their land. They, they didn' ; t like it. They, you know, they, and they, to me, with San Diego Mission, um, and you read the history on that, it, it was, it was harsh. Where here, Father Peri --' ; cuz remember, San Luis Rey was the 19th mission. It was the one that--it was at almost the end that it was built. Okay? And San Luis Capistrano really was the 2nd one. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then they come around there [circles her arm] and they built San Luis Rey, 19-what, a number 19, in 1798. Okay? So, you' ; re looking at all these other missions that were built way before that. Father Peri, he--his system was more with the native people. Yes, you could come, but he let ' ; em build around him, also. But it was not the Fathers that were chased in the mission, the Indians. It was the soldiers at the--that' ; s who were supposedly protecting the Fathers. They were the ones that went out and chased the Indians down. They were the ones that did the punishments, when they had their, their, their soldiers--the ones that were in charge--they took it to their head, you know, I mean, to do the punishment, because as far as native indigenous people were below the Mexican people. You had the Indians [gestures making layers, indicating layers of hierarchy], then you had the Mexicans, the Spaniards, you understand, that, that-- LK: Were higher, you know. DC: --hierarchy. So, um, I don' ; t have that too much on there, you know, with that. Everybody has their own. I have it because the missions only because they kept ' ; em down [gestures downward with her right hand], and they did use ' ; em--I wouldn' ; t--I don' ; t use the word slave, but they--I guess, slave labor. They were the laborers, where else they really didn' ; t--they didn' ; t get paid. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, on there. And then when the missions were done, and the secularization, when they did that, they were lost. They cried, you know. I mean, they were starving, because of that--and then what had happened, the ranchers got us here, Picos, the Marrons, the Couts, all of the rest of them--they went and destroyed the mission. They were, they were tearing it apart. They were taking the beams. They were taking all the statues. They were taking the different things, and using them to build. You know, you get some of these ranchers, they have some of the beams on that are from--that are from the Mission. The artifacts. LK: Wild. DC: You know. But you don' ; t hear that side of the story. That' ; s why at Camp Pendleton and Rancho Santa Margarita and them, when it, they hid the stories and that--" ; Come on, you guys, you know. Pico wasn' ; t the best guy." ; LK: Mm-hmm. DC: He, he was really one of those really against the Indians. LK: So, in addition to your passion and your education with the basketry, you are like a historian of your people, and the area, and I see that you brought some other materials. Is there anything you want share? DC: [again reaching to the left] Well, one of the things is that, uh, okay, and I know that for you, you' ; re trying to do this. I did study the language [holds up some leaves of paper], but since I didn' ; t--wasn' ; t able to have--speak to somebody, I went through the Pechanga -- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --and they sent me to Cal State--I mean, to Riverside, also to the international classes that was there. But since I didn' ; t have anybody to communicate with [gestures as if transmitting words to another person], it was hard for me. I can read it, and I can probably understand it when they' ; re--when they start talking to me, you know-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --get the words right. But I' ; m fortunate that I did have that. But this is one [looks at paper] of the things that I' ; m going to share--I' ; m going to be sharing this at the, uh, Spirit of the Valley, once they get over there. But it' ; s like this one here, okay? [turns paper toward Linda. The paper is laminated, and has a colored drawing of a deer, with the word ' ; şúukat' ; ] You hear that one What' ; s that? LK: Soosh-kah? Soo-kah-- DC: Soos-kwaht, okay? LK: Soos-kwaht. DC: Deer. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Okay. I' ; m just going to be doing that. This is for the children. Ishwoot? [holds up a laminated drawing of a wolf with word ' ; ˈíswut' ; ] What' ; s that? Ishwoot. LK: That is a wolf. DC: Yeah, wolf. Okay? And then this is something that I use with kids [holds up a laminated drawing of a grasshopper with word ' ; wiˈét' ; ]. Whee-uht. LK: Grasshopper. DC: Or cricket. LK: Or cricket. DC: Yeah. Whee-uht. And so, you see in these names--why I use these, because you see in these names, being with the native kids now, that they' ; re being named this. [holds up a laminated drawing of a bear with word ' ; húnwut' ; ] LK: Hunwhat. DC: Hunwhat. LK: It' ; s a bear. DC: It' ; s a bear. Children are being named that now, with these, especially with these names here, with their--for the children. They' ; re proud of being called ' ; hun-what.' ; They' ; re proud of being called ' ; soos-kwaht,' ; called--proud of being called ' ; whee-uht,' ; you know, instead of just being called " ; cricket," ; you know, on there. And so that was one of the things that I found I have been proud to do, you know, on that. And then, also, you have " ; Tuk-woot" ; [holds up a laminated drawing of a cougar with word ' ; túˈkwet' ; ]. Who is this? LK: A cougar or mountain lion. DC: It' ; s a cougar, okay? LK: Cougar? DC: You have ' ; tuk-woot' ; village, ' ; tuk-woot' ; village, ' ; tuk-woot' ; court, at Cal State San Marcos! LK: Yes, that' ; s right! DC: Okay? " ; Aush-woot?" ; [holds up a laminated drawing of a hawk with word ' ; áşwut' ; ] I know that' ; s not a [unintelligible] of an eagle, but that' ; s an ' ; aush-woot.' ; The eagle. LK: The eagle. DC: Yeah. And these are words that, um, are the alphabet, pretty long, you know, and considered more than 26 letters, that are important to the kids because they can identify with them. You know. I also have a coloring book, and you know, 1-2-3 and stuff like that I' ; m sharing. But one of these [reaches to the left for something else] that I want to end with, if you don' ; t mind, is that if, um, [sighs] in 2004, this is the Heritage Keepers [holds up a magazine entitled " ; Heritage Keepers" ; ]. This is a magazine coming from the Ramon Learning Center [reads back of magazine] LK: Hmmm. DC: Okay. And, um, it' ; s still going on from Banning, California. And I wrote a poem [opening magazine, and finding page where poem is printed], um, and I wanted to read it and share it with you. Is that okay? LK: Yes! I would love that. DC: Okay. It' ; s that, um, I wrote this poem when I was doing the--learning the Luiseño language, and I had to write this poem because I was, um, trying to pull the words out [gestures as if churning things over in her head] of my head that I knew. And where I was at--it was Teeter Romero and I were up in Rainbow, up there by north of us here. And we were going to go out there to gather Juncus in Gomez Creek area, which is behind Riamb--Rainbow. You gotta go up the mountain. And when we were up there at the top of the hill--it was early in the morning, and we stopped because we looked out towards the valley towards the ocean [points to the left] and that morning it was clear. You can--you could--you could see the, see the ocean shining clear at the, at the other end, which is really not-- [shakes her head]. But then you saw El Moro Kukutuk, okay? That' ; s another story. One day you might have to say it, but Kutukutuk too, is part of our creation story. And you can see that mound really clearly, with the ocean in the background, shimmering, and that mound there in the valley near Camp Pendleton, and Bonsall and Fallbrook area. In this part of our creation story, I got these things in my head as I' ; m looking at it, and I thought of our people. Because of the creation story, of trying to be saved. They were, they--we had the flood, also, in our creation story. And all I could think of, and was watching it, seeing the ocean shimmering, seeing that mound and thinking of " ; Oh my God, that' ; s what came up. The ocean came up." ; And the people were running, because the water was coming in and coming in, and they had nothing to save ' ; em. And the people from Pechanga were up there on their high point [points up with left hand], which is up there by Rainbow. If you ever go by Pechanga on the back way you' ; ll see the big hill that' ; s up there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That' ; s one of their lookouts, and I don' ; t know that there--the name of it, but it' ; s a point. And they were looking at the people, you know, the Luiseño people in the valley, running. And all they could do was keep singing. Now I don' ; t--I have the words to that song, that they had-- that they started there. But, I don' ; t have that with me right now. But they were singing up there to hopefully save their people. They' ; re crying for them, and trying to save, save their people. Well, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, this mound comes up. And so they were watching their people swimming towards it, and running towards it. And this mound kept coming up, and that' ; s more--El Moro Hill, or Kuktuk. That is a volcano cone. People don' ; t realize that, you know, we do have volcanic areas-- [laughs] LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --in this area. And that' ; s a volcano cone that came up and our people in that valley, meaning my ancestors, okay--were saved. They were able to go on to Tuktuk, El Moro Hill, and come up, and go up there. You can visit that here--uh, that mound or that little knoll or dell, if you want to call it. It' ; s on Indian Rock Road. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It' ; s Sleeping Indian Rock. It' ; s Sleeping Indian Road [scratches head] right there. Part of it' ; s on Camp Pendleton. Part of it' ; s in Fallbrook. And, part of it is owned by the County of San Diego. You can' ; t build on it. You can build on--near it, but you can' ; t build on the Camp Pendleton side, because that' ; s a blind--ammunition dump. And the Navy owns it. Fallbrook owns a third of it, and San Diego County owns a third. There' ; s a trail that you can go up on there, if you want to visit it and go, and there' ; s a hearth on the top that they do celebrations, ceremonies up there. My great-grandmother was born there, at the base of that El Moro Hill. So, yeah, we' ; ve got history in there, and, you know, our aunt used to tell--my aunt, my great aunt, used to tell stories, you know, about that-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --and they used to go, go there. But what I did was wrote a poem as I was doing, uh, looking at it, and I was thinking, my language is going in my head, but I could only pick out some words that I knew at that time. So it' ; s called " ; Naqmayam" ; and I was saying it--first saying it in Luiseño, then I' ; ll read it again in English, what it meant. LK: Okay. DC: Okay. It says " ; Naqmayam. Toonquay qawiinga/noo toowq ' ; ataxmi/naqmayam/noo toowq ' ; ataxmi heelaqal/' ; ataaxum naqmawun! Popuu' ; uk ponakilvoy/yu' ; pan heth' ; aan/no$uun toonavan ' ; ataaxum poomoto/naqmayam! Heelaxam!" ; Now, I usually sing this, I know. It' ; s just--it' ; s--it' ; s--I usually--it sticks after a while, I' ; m singing it, because I do sing it, at the Mission on All Soul' ; s Day. [chuckles] So, if you come on All Soul' ; s Day, on November 2nd, around 6 o' ; clock, between 6 and 6:30, I' ; ll be doing it and lighting the candles there, and I' ; ll be--I can sing it. And why I like to sing it, it' ; s sometimes I can hear my voice [gestures to her right ear], it bounces off the mission wall. It scared me the first time that it happened-- LK: [chuckles] DC: --because I never had an echo come back like that. And, anyway, " ; naqmayam" ; means " ; listen." ; " ; Toonquay qawiinga" ; means " ; from the rock on the mountain." ; Naqmayam. I see the people. I see the people singing. People listen. The door was closed. Again it will open. My heart will weave among the people. Listen and sing. I wasn' ; t looking at them crying, you know. I was thinking about them singing, and being happy. And the door was closed at one time for us, but it was now opening. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then my heart, at that time, with the weaving, there, my heart will weave among the people. And, um, so it was kind of, you know--and they published it, in that--in that--in there-- LK: It' ; s beautiful. DC: --It kind of gives the story of me. This has happened in 2003 [laughs]. And that' ; s how long ago, with the language. And I' ; m still trying to bring the language back, you know, I mean, we did it with--for a while when we were together with the Rotary Club. But then again I' ; m doing it, trying to get it back with people, and with our people, on that. It' ; s still going on at the Pechanga, with this fantastic Pechanga . I started back with them, way back when, and they started at the preschool. And then, now, they' ; ve taken it all the way up through their 6th grade there on their reservation at Pechanga. They don' ; t speak any English in the classes. All their instructors or the teachers have to learn the language. It' ; s taught in Luiseño. They' ; ve got an agreement with the school district of Temecula, that they follow them all the way through school, all the way through high school, that they have to release them at least, I don' ; t know how many times a week, to be brought in and taught their language, to keep it up. LK: That' ; s wonderful. DC: They take it all the way through high school. But, Pechanga has done really good. Pauma is also―has a class there, you know. Pauma does. Rincon does. Pala, uh, I don' ; t know if Pala does. But, each one has a different, like a dialect, you know. The only sad thing is when you get politics coming in. I' ; m just going to let you guys know. Politics is really deep within the tribes, on there, and um, I' ; m right, you' ; re wrong, etc. And it' ; s sad, because we' ; re all the one people, but that' ; s the way it goes. You' ; re born into being an indigenous people, not just for us here in California, but across the United States. You' ; re born into politics, whether you like it or not. So, um― LK: Well, I just want to close with saying that it' ; s been an honor and absolute pleasure to interview you and listen to you. I want to acknowledge that you went from accounting to weaving to becoming an educator of your pe―of your tribal background, and also a historian, and I think a big part of your legacy is to keep this out there. And you' ; re doing it pretty much on your own. It' ; s not like you have all this, um, Federal money behind you, like the federally recognized tribes, so― DC: We don' ; t have that [shaking her head] LK: ―you do not have that. You' ; re not federally recognized. But I just wanted to honor that in you, and thank you so much for allowing me to do this. DC: Okay. LK: No $uun. DC: Noh [bowing her head, and chuckling] I was going to say No $uun Looviq. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CaudellDiania_KallasLinda_2022-10-17_access.xml CaudellDiania_KallasLinda_2022-10-17_access.xml
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Caudell, Diania. Interview October 27, 2022
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Interview with Diania Caudell focused on her Native American ancestry as well as her past occupation as an accountant. Also included is her implementation of Native American education in the San Juan Capistrano School District and how her back injury led her to become a basket weaver.
The written transcription of this interview also contains a glossary and poem in Luiseño with English translation, written by Caudell in 2003.
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SC027-22
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Basket making
Education -- Native Americans
Luiseño Indians
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2022-10-27
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video
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Diania Caudell
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Linda Kallas
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Oceanside (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
Luiseño
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Diania Caudell
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Art and artists
Community history
Native American experience
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Lucy Wheeler
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Susan Cupaiuolo
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CupaiuoloSusan_WheelerLucy_2023-02-23_access.xml
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5.4 Cupaiuolo, Susan. Interview February 23, 2023 SC027-24 0:41:03 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral histories collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Blueberries Cherimoya Orchards -- California -- Vista Tree crops Vista (Calif.) Susan Cupaiuolo Lucy Wheeler mp4 CupaiuoloSusan_WheelerLucy_2023-02-23_access.mp4 1:|13(1)|23(5)|31(7)|40(8)|47(3)|54(11)|61(1)|69(8)|77(9)|85(8)|95(3)|104(3)|111(7)|120(11)|130(14)|140(12)|148(9)|158(12)|166(1)|174(11)|184(6)|192(9)|204(13)|213(2)|222(12)|232(2)|240(9)|247(11)|255(12)|263(6)|271(8)|281(3)|289(5)|301(2)|313(2)|328(3)|336(10)|367(2)|387(7)|401(10)|415(6) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/7519142da692856f004bf07f963d4a93.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction about North County para-agriculture / Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo’s story The interview begins with an introduction to North County’s para-agriculture, which has been largely overlooked despite San Diego making up a large portion of the county’s agriculture. Susan Cupaiuolo discusses the life of her husband Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo, whom was called “Nino.” She explains that Nino grew up in Milan, Italy during World War II. Nino did not have a farming background. Instead, Nino worked in the field of international marketing and worked in the United States and Europe for forty years. She also explains that Nino loved growing a garden in the Orange County home that she shared with his first wife. Nino passed away in 2020 at the age of eighty-six years old. agriculture ; farming ; farms ; Independent farming ; Milan (Italy) ; Orange County (Calif.) ; para-agriculture 235 Marriage to Cupaiuolo/ Purchasing the farm Susan Cupaiuolo recounts the early days of her marriage to Nino Cupaiuolo, where they lived in Michigan before moving to Orange County, CA. She also recalls when Nino first introduced her to the avocado fields in Vista, CA that they would eventually turn into their cherimoya farm, The Primavera Orchard. agriculture ; Cherimoya ; farming ; farms ; Independent farming ; Michigan ; Orange County (Calif.) ; para-agriculture ; The Primavera Orchard ; Vista (Calif.) 456 Managing a farm/ Background on cherimoyas Susan Cupaiuolo discusses how she and Nino developed and managed a cherimoya farm. She explains that managing a farm is a long-term investment and that farmers may sometimes invest a lot of money, time, research, and other resources into their farm in order to see results. Cupaiuolo also discusses cherimoyas, their origins, and tips on growing and pollinating cherimoyas in the Southern Californian climate. Cupaiuolo had also brought a few cherimoyas to the interview, which she displays to the camera. Agriculture ; Cherimoya ; Ecuador ; Farming ; Farming techniques ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Peru ; Subtropical fruit ; Vista (Calif.) 850 Local resources Susan Cupaiuolo discusses local resources that she has found beneficial in her experience in farming. She recommends programs such as the University of California Cooperative Extension for soil analysis labs, as well as organizations such as the California Rare Fruit Growers, the California Cherimoya Association, and the Master Gardner Association for their workshops and other resources. She highlights the University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department and the South Coast Research and Extension Center for their agricultural research. Cupaiuolo also stresses the importance of the internet for making research on farming easier and more accessible to the general public. Agriculture ; California Rare Fruit Growers ; Cherimoya ; Farming ; Farming techniques ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Irvine (Calif.) ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Para-agriculture ; Research ; San Diego (Calif.) ; Soil analysis ; South Coast Research and Extension Center ; The California Cherimoya Association ; The County of San Diego Cooperative Extension ; The Farm and House Advisor ; The Master Gardener Association ; The United States Department of Agriculture ; The University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department ; University of California Cooperative Extension 1047 Selling produce and relationships with customers Susan Cupaiuolo discusses the business-side of managing a farm. Independently-owned grocery stores were an important avenue to individual farmers like the Cupaiuolos. She also discusses other avenues for where individual farmers can earn revenue and connect to the community, and recounts their experiences at farmers markets, free tasting events, and delivering to customers directly. She explains that their experience working with customers in these capacities helped build relationships and loyalty. Farm tours also facilitated socialization within their community. Agriculture ; Business ; Cherimoya ; Connecting with community ; Customers ; Farming ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Socialization in farming ; Vista (Calif.) 1494 Research and record-keeping in farming Susan Cupaiuolo discusses record-keeping strategies for farming. Specifically, record-keeping was beneficial to the Cupaiuolos for documenting their blueberry harvests. She explains that Nino collaborated with the Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program and the Farm Bureau and documented the blossoms, production, weight, soil, temperature, and varieties of blueberries. Cupaiuolo describes her role in blueberry record-keeping as financial and also explains the profit they made from selling the fruit. Agriculture ; Blueberries ; Farming ; Farming techniques ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Peru ; Record-keeping ; Research ; The Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program ; The Farm Bureau ; Vista (Calif.) 1835 Selling the farm/ Innovation in farming Susan Cupaiuolo briefly discusses the process of selling the farm to a new family after Nino’s death. She also discusses the importance of innovation in farming and explains that their farm was ahead of technological innovations in terms of the installation of an advanced irrigation system, solar panels, and a cell tower in the early 2000s. She recalls Nino’s artistic mind and speculates that his creativity allowed him to create these advanced designs for their farm. Agriculture ; Farming ; Farming irrigation ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Innovation in farming ; Irrigation ; Para-agriculture ; Technological innovations ; The Primavera Orchard ; Vista (Calif.) 2160 Advice to future farmers/ Agriculture economy Susan Cupaiuolo briefly offers advice to individuals who may be interested in starting their own farm. She suggests when buying a farm, it is imperative to have an understanding of the history of farming, the labor needed to sustain a farm, and the current economy and real-estate market. She further discusses the economy of individual farming, especially the competition farmers face against one another. Advice ; Agriculture ; Agriculture economy ; Competition in farming ; Economy ; Farming ; Farming advice ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Real estate market Moving image The Primavera Orchard was owned and operated by Giovanni and Susan Cupaiuolo from 1991 until Nino’s death in 2020 in Vista, California. It was a six acre peri-urban farm specializing in the growth, preparation, promotion and detailed hand-pollinated fruit from a variety of cherimoya trees. Cherimoya trees are a tropical fruit tree which will only grow in Southern California and are very expensive due to the complicated and dedicated care of the trees and cultivations. The Cupaiuolos later introduced blueberries to the area to provide this northern fruit into the local markets during the northern dormant season. Other fruits and vegetables were grown for personal use. Lucy Wheeler: Good afternoon. My name is Lucy Wheeler and it' ; s February the 23rd, 2023. We' ; re here to interview Susan-- Susan Cupaiuolo: Cupaiuolo. Wheeler: Kupaiyalo. Thank you. (Cupaiuolo chuckles) Uh, this is in behalf of the North County Oral History Initiative being put on by Cal State and San Marcos and the Museum of History here in San Marcos. The history of our North County--and just as a preliminary to your story, Susan--the county of San Diego is a very unique situation in that it' ; s the ninth largest city in the United States, but it' ; s in the community of the county. The fourth largest industry is agriculture, and most of that, or 70% of that, is soon to be in the North County. Part of that agricultural industry makes it a--well, it' ; s the largest area in the United States with the most farms. Your story shows one of the areas of that agriculture which is kind of overlooked, and that is, in 2017 the county of San Diego estimated and actually counted that there were 5,000 small para-farmers, which is ten acres or less, and how they operate. And your story can bring us a wealth of information to that. So, with that beginning, tell us a little bit about yourself, your husband, where you were born, and what your interest in agriculture was. Cupaiuolo: (nods) I' ; d be glad to give some background on this. My husband was Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo. He died in October 2020 at the height of the pandemic. Uh, he was 86 years old. He had been in declining health physically and cognitively, and I just wish that he were here to tell this adventure, but I' ; ll do my best to--to share it. Um, I' ; m going to call him " ; Nino." ; He grew up in Milan, Italy during World War II. He had one brother. His father was from Naples and his mother from Sicily. Farming was not in his background, and, um, I' ; m setting that up as making sure we don' ; t have these assumptions about Italians who grew up on farms and have these big families, okay? Because that' ; s--that' ; s not the--the way it was for him. He had a master' ; s degree in international marketing, and he spoke four languages. He sold industrial instrumentation in Europe and in the United States for over forty years. His first wife was an American. She worked at the U.S. Consulate in Milan. She was from Riverside, and they eventually settled with their three children in Orange County. For the first time, they had a yard! You know. Growing up in Milan, apartment, maybe you have a balcony with some pots. But the garden that he had, and they had chickens and the kids loved it. He learned that he loved growing things. Nino and I met and married in Michigan, where I am from. I was teaching and he was working there selling to the auto industry. He was transferred again in 1988 and we moved to Orange County. So, how did a schoolteacher from western Michigan and an Italian end up with a six-acre farm in north San Diego County? Well, I have to say at this point that it was driven by Nino, who was looking for a place to enjoy his retirement. I was happy teaching in Huntington Beach, but his territory stretched from San Diego to L.A. and beyond and he was on the road a lot. On Friday, one Friday, in 1991, he was returning from San Diego and he stopped off at a--a nursery in North Vista and, um, when he arrived home he said, " ; I' ; ve found where we' ; re going to retire." ; So, the next day we started looking, and we found two acres on a subdivided avocado grove off of Gopher Canyon Road. And the journey began! At first, we commuted to the property on the weekends, and it--it was--it was perfect. It was hectic, but it was perfect. The Fuerte avocados there were in decline, and they were alive but failing, because after the introduction of the Hass variety, the--the cultivar, um, Fuerte fell out of favor. So, the 45-acre grove was subdivided into two-to-four-acre plots and put up for sale. So, what do you do with aging avocado trees? You stop watering them because avocados need 40 inches of rain a year. So, it didn' ; t take long. When the adjacent four acres became available, we were able to buy them as well and that included a grove of already-producing persimmons--Hachiyas and Fuyus. So, that gave us a place to start. We moved to the farm in 1994, fixed up a small house on the property, and over the next year we removed all of the metal irrigation pipes (chuckles) and those dead avocado trees. By the way, avocado wood makes great firewood. We were selling it and giving it away for years! Okay, enough background. What does it take to have a small farm? Well, besides resources like land and equipment and irrigation, you need physical energy and strength (chuckles) and a lot of knowledge based on research. And that would include--before you even get started--the microclimate, the soil, the water sources. And then you have to choose, based on that information, what to grow! Well, Nino wanted fruit trees. Okay. As I was saying, he was the driver of all of this (chuckles), so I was just along for the ride. But, he, in particular, wanted cherimoyas, and that was because he had the year before, out of curiosity, bought a cherimoya fruit at a market and he loved it. He saved the seeds, and he planted them in pots. In fact, there was a cherimoya tree on the property, right by the front door! After much research--this was in 1993--early days of the internet, okay? But, we learned that cherimoyas would do really well in our area. Not from seed, however. (indicates " ; no" ; with her left pointer finger, and clears her throat.) It--it took a big commitment, that' ; s for sure, because choosing to grow trees requires a longer-term outlook. Depending on how much time and money you have, you have to, um, invest, because the trees will take three to five years, or more, to produce, while row crops, like flowers or microgreens, for example, they can be seasonal. It was a big decision. It was a certain amount of trial and error--grafting, pollinating, planting. But, as it' ; s important to small farms in choosing a unique or niche product, not supplied (again indicated " ; no" ; with her finger) by larger farmers, it worked out! Now, at the time, that really wasn' ; t our focus, but it proved to be a huge advantage. A little bit about cherimoyas. They' ; re a subtropical fruit, native to the mountain valleys of Peru and Ecuador. It can be large, often heart-shaped. (Reaches for a fruit and holds it up for the camera while the camera pans in.) I can show you one. (Lays it back down, and begins to rub her hands together). They have overlapping scales--that' ; s what people call them, anyway. But, inside, it is white, and it has a custardy texture and it tastes like pineapple, banana, papaya, and in some varieties, even a pear! (Holds up a book with header reading " ; Gallery of Subtropical Plants" ; and contains a photo of the fruit and a cherimoya tree as well as textual information. Camera pans in on the page with the fruit image.) Southern California provides the--the best conditions in the United States for growing cherimoyas. The largest plantings are near Santa Barbara where most of that fruit is exported to Asia. The season is late winter to spring, so depending on the variety, that' ; s from November, December to March and April. The tricky thing (rubs her hands together) about growing cherimoyas is the pollination. Each blossom is both male and female, but bees are too big to enter this fleshy flower. To get full-sized fruit, hand pollination with a paintbrush is the key. It' ; s labor intensive in June, July, and August. It' ; s not difficult, but it is time consuming. Now, (looks to her left, towards the fruit) part of farming has to be knowing the microclimate and (clears her throat) in general, in San Diego, people know the difference between the--the cool coastal and the warmer inland valleys. But (rubs hands) even with careful research on the--on the property, it' ; s--it can throw you some--some confusing conditions, because, uh, there are different temperatures. You can have diff--places with sun, and soil, and wind. On our property, which dropped off to a--a canyon, the temperature dropped dramatically, including frost, and the prevailing westerly winds were an issue. We were able to grow for ourselves in that canyon, apples, cherries, pears, fruits that needed a lot of chill time. But we weren' ; t selling those. (clears her throat, plane can be heard in the background) We also ended up, though, having to plant a wind break to protect the cherimoyas (chuckles) that we had planted. Who knew! But, we chose wisely because we chose Satsuma tangerines, which proved to be--be-- very popular, so it all worked out. (clears her throat again) Some research was more scientific because soil and water can be tested for pH and salinity and minerals, and there are a lot of excellent resources out--out there that--that I need to, uh, recommend, because um,--I' ; m going to read this just to make sure I get it correct--um, the University of California Cooperative Extension has the names of labs. Okay, you have to pay for them. But, especially soil analysis is--is important, because you need to understand the plants ability to absorb nutrients. You can even take them leaves from your plants, and they will analyze whether they are taking up nutrients as needed. I also want to recommend specific groups like--we had the California Rare Fruit Growers. There' ; s a--a branch in North County and also one at Balboa Park. There' ; s the California Cherimoya Association and other fruits have their Associations as well. And, of course, the United States Department of Agriculture. And I can' ; t forget the Master Gardener Association, because they have workshops and blogs and so much information. And in the past 20 to 30 years, it' ; s been easy to find information, easier, because of the internet. And whether you' ; re planting, or pruning, or harvesting, a YouTube video can teach you (starts to chuckle) just about anything you want! And they' ; re fun! So, research is easier. But I still have to say that contact with people is key. The University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department--that' ; s called the U.C.A.N.R.--is including--includes the County of San Diego Cooperative Extension and the Farm and Home Advisor--that' ; s by county. And--and another part of the U.C.A.N.R. is the South Coast Research and Extension Center in Irvine, and (clears throat) it' ; s a living laboratory for U.C. scientists where they are conducting agricultural research. It' ; s a 200-acre facility, where they have outdoor events and demonstrations and classrooms. They have a glasshouse there. And they also have a huge cherimoya collection of trees that is just beautiful. And, of course, that was our connection to that place, besides the great people who are there. So, relationships and talking about them, kind of brings me to the selling part of all of this, because when we had enough fruit to sell, the Vista Farmer' ; s Market was a consideration. But Nino decided to try small, family-owned, independent grocers first. Not chains (indicates " ; no" ; with her left finger). They won' ; t even talk to you. Even Sprouts won' ; t buy from individual farmers. So, let' ; s find places where they will buy locally. Now, farmer' ; s markets do have advantages--meeting other farmers, learning about crops, meeting the public. But, they require labor time away from the farm and picking for unknown demand in advance. And that, with fruit on trees, is problematic. So as an experienced (chuckles) salesman, Nino knew to find out what the customer wanted, and he harvested by their needs! He would check their stock, or they would call. Sometimes he would deliver two to three times a week, especially during times like the Lunar New Year, things like that. That special attention is what builds relationships and loyalty. He also learned to sell by (chuckles) uniform size. They didn' ; t want all different sizes of fruit. They wanted uniform. But then he had to be creative, too. And he was always making sure that he was interacting with the produce people at the store, whether they' ; re the guys putting out the fruit or the managers, because that kind of connection does it all. So, (sighs) pre-pandemic, Nino was even doing free tastings at Frazier Farms which was one of his main sources, uh, sales--of sales. He--he would cut up (gestures cutting with a knife) cherimoyas and take them there and they weren' ; t well known but once people tried them, they were going to buy. Now, at one point, customers would see Nino delivering and they would stop him in the parking lot, asking to buy fruit themselves. He declined right away, partly because of the amount that they wanted. He realized that they were going to be reselling and competing with his customer right there in the store. So, it would be also disruptive to have these people coming to the property and wanting to buy, so, no. But it did get Nino thinking about sharing the experience of the farm. MeetUp groups were starting at that time. They were the thing, like signing up online for different activities. So, we started having U-Picks. We set up two timeslots on Saturday mornings, where people could sign up online, and they would come and Nino would give a presentation on the farm and the different fruits, and I provided samples of fruit and preserves and--and cherimoya ice cream and recipes. Oh, they loved that! So, it was a success. Families came with their kids, mostly from San Diego proper, you know. They were city people. But they were enjoying an outing in the country, and they enjoyed the property. They loved picking the fruit. So, these are people who wanted their kids to know where fruit comes from! Wow! (laughs) And the kids especially liked picking the tangerines. We made a lot of friends over the ten years that we did that, and we got to watch those kids grow up. They--they also liked feeding my chickens. Now, some customers--I put that in quotes (gestures making quotation marks with her hands) ' ; cuz yes they were customers but they became friends and they would volunteer to come and help during the summer with the hand pollination and the--of the cherimoyas and so we--we had some--some really good connections that way. We even found a couple of paid workers from that group. Now, over the years, we had a lot of visitors to the farm. Um, usually by word of mouth or connections to the Farm Bureau, and that would include restaurant owners, especially Asian and South American, produce managers from independent grocers. I think of Barons Market, especially, because we had one produce manager from one store come and pretty soon all of the stores were buying from us. We even had wholesale produce managers (rubs hands together), um, specialty produce in the San Diego. They--they sell to the public, but they would come and--and visit and see the farm. And we also had students come to visit. They were from Cal Poly Pomona and there' ; s a College of Agriculture Plant Sciences there, and they were taking a class. I--I remember Dr. Greg Partida, who retired in 2010, but he had a class on subtropical fruit production and he would bring his students on field trips to the farm. So, that socialization is so important because farming, even on a small farm, can be really isolating. There' ; s so much to do, day-to-day. People, since the pandemic, working from home, have found out how strange that is, really, that instead of going to the office every day, they' ; re--they' ; re at home. And--and that' ; s kind of like what it' ; s--what it is to--to be a small farmer, too. I wanted to talk a little bit about, um, record keeping, because it' ; s so impart--important in farming and with the advent of the internet and--and computers, it' ; s changed a lot. But, it' ; s still a--a beneficial skill set, whether you' ; re talking about taxes, or income, or expenses, or irrigation, equipment, payroll, any of that. But, um, another use for--for keeping track of--of information is monitoring the production of the--the crops, whether it' ; s by varieties, where they' ; re growing on the property, the quality from year to year. And an example of this is really in--in Nino' ; s participation in the--the Cooperative Extension' ; s Blueberry Test Plot Program, which was twenty years ago. Now, traditionally blueberries were a cold weather plant that would go dormant every year. In California, the plants bloom year-round, and they wear themselves out. So, Nino, once again, wanted to plant things that no one else plants and there was a lot of research going on as to how to extend the blueberry' ; s range. Through the Farm and Home Advisor Ramiro Lobo, Nino was given four plants each of nine different varieties of southern blueberries. The soil pH that we had was way too alkaline and it had to be augmented. Temperature had to be monitored. Pests considered. The Farm Bureau was very supportive throughout all of this. They even ended up building us a netted structure to keep the birds off. But, Nino was instrumental in monitoring and recording the blossoms, the fruit, the production for each plant. They called him Mr. Spreadsheet (both she and Wheeler chuckle). Well, Excel to the rescue, you know? Because, in--and--I--I have a--a photo of him here, if you' ; d like to see, where he is, um, (shows a photo of Nino, camera pans in) taking the blossoms off of the blueberry plants. Now, why would he be doing that? You know? For two years, he did that, so that the young plants could use their energy to grow. And then he would take the berries from each variety and weigh them and--and count them, and that' ; s how they decided which varieties would be the most productive in southern California. Now, there were other farmers doing that too, but in 2002, California produced two million pounds of blueberries. Okay. Twenty years later, 53.4 million pounds of blueberries, sixth in the United States. This boom is due to technological growing skills and adventurous producers, and he was part of all of that. My part with the blueberries was, (clears her throat) when I retired from teaching, then I was in charge of the blueberries. Okay. But think of it this way. Four dollars for six ounces (gestures as if telling a secret)--I was selling them at school. So, that translates to twelve dollars a pound. Now, what ev--other fruit is going to sell for twelve dollars a pound! In the past ten years, in the United States, the output of blueberries has tripled. And that' ; s in the U.S. alone. And the main states are Washington, Georgia, and my home state, Michigan. So, why is that increased so much. Because of the research talking about antioxidants. So, in ten years, they have become really huge crop. Okay, today, what country do you think grows the most blueberries? I' ; ll tell you. Peru! Is that somethin' ; or what? Which, for me, is kind of a full circle because that' ; s where cherimoyas are from. Okay. So, I have just a little bit more, because I sold the farm after Nino' ; s death. I had three people interested. One couple wanted it as an investment, (said in nasal utterance) ehh. Another couple ended up buying a larger property in Valley Center. But, the--the family that I--I sold to love it there, and they' ; re trying to keep it going. They have no clue how much work it takes, especially with their three kids and two dogs, but hey. That' ; s--that' ; s--that' ; s their issue. They' ; re keeping it going, and I--I--I wish them all the best. Now, (clears her throat) when it--when it comes to innovation in farming, I guess that--that--that besides his interaction with people, innovation was something that--that Nino was very attracted to, because he was always trying new irrigation. We had installed a--a well, which saved on water. But electricity was expensive. So, we invested in solar panels. And in the year 2000, we were one of the fifty original installations of net metering in the--in the county. So, it was always somethin' ; , you know. We had a cell tower on the property. Very good income. Verizon had been pursuing us for several years for that. And finally we were able to get them to choose a location and (chuckles) give us a fake tree design that was acceptable that we couldn' ; t see from the house. So, always moving forward with something, that is the exciting part of changes and I mentioned these as evidence because technological innovation in all our lives, including farming, is key. What' ; s next? (puts up her hands, palms facing camera) I don' ; t know. Robots? (laughs) I don' ; t know! But--but Nino was able to embrace new ideas and change. And new farmers are going to have to do the same. Wheeler: Oh. Thank you so much. It' ; s so exciting because we are all changing no matter what we--what we do. The--I was really curious about--say more about how innovative--what--what made him feel that way, think that way. Curiosity coming from another country and embracing so many differences, but being innovative with that help, maybe in spite of it sometimes. Cupaiuolo: Well, he had many different abilities. I had mentioned that he spoke four languages. His father was an artist, and Nino was very artistic. So, he had a very creative part of his personality, besides being just so outgoing. And, um, he loved to--to try new things. Wheeler: And that is wonderful! The other thing that I think depicts all of this was the number of articles written about him and that he helped promote, and to let the world know how he was, um, being innovative― Cupaiuolo: Uh-huh. Wheeler: ―in a very creative way. And that personality came across, and people accepted that. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: And there was so much camaraderie in it. Did you ever do tours of your farm? Cupaiuolo: Uh, yes, there were farm tours that were set up. And people, through the Farm Bureau, would come from different parts of the country, even. They would come on a bus! (shrugs) Because small farms, for a long time really, have been a focus of--of many different states. We even had the president of the University of California come on one of the--the tours, and wrote us a--a very nice thank you letter afterward, because they were interested in how much they should be focusing on the part of the University of California that was devoted to agriculture and farming. Wheeler: That' ; s great. Would--sometimes when we' ; re driving in the freeway and it' ; s pretty much a parking lot for a couple of hours of the day, and we get this vision of wouldn' ; t it be nice to be on a little farm or little acreage somewhere, do you have any advice to people who have that dream. Cupaiuolo: (purses her lips and blows out air, then clears her throat) Well, I think that it takes more than people think in terms of resources and, um, research (chuckles), and it--it' ; s not something to jump into lightly. It is possible to buy a farm that' ; s already operating, and that--that' ; s what the young family did from--from me, last year. So-- Wheeler: And the cost of real estate has made that less available to a lot of people, too. Cupaiuolo: Well, that is--that--that' ; s (nodding) Wheeler: So much going on in this farming industry. That' ; s why it' ; s very important to have the history of how it has been, in order to build on to the future. Do you happen to have a photo of Nino? Cupaiuolo: I do! (reaches to her right, and pulls out a photo). What is--what' ; s happening to that. There it is! Wheeler: Oh, and he has some of the cherimoyas. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: That one is large! How large do they get? Cupaiuolo: Well, that was a three pounder. Wheeler: Mmm--wow. Cupaiuolo: Yeah, that--that would be fifteen dollars right there. Wheeler: Yes. Cupaiuolo: And you know what? People would buy them! Wheeler: It' ; s amazing the costs of them. But now that I understand more about the--the detail and the--the labor intensiveness of it, um-- Cupaiuolo: Course, if that--that wouldn' ; t all be fruit-less, if people didn' ; t love the fruit. So-- Wheeler: Right. Exactly. Um-- Cupaiuolo: But, hey, look at what we pay for blueberries per month. Wheeler: Do you know of any other orchards that are doing that right now? Or is it a popular-- Cupaiuolo: For the cherimoya? Wheeler: Yes. Cupaiuolo: Not that I know of. I mean, there are people on the side. Competition. There was a guy in Oceanside who had purchased a cherimoya orchard and he had small, misshapen fruit. And he offered to sell it to Frazier Farms for three dollars a pound rather than the five dollars a pound that we were selling fruit. So the produce manager from Frader--Frazier Farms came to Nino and said, " ; I have this guy that' ; s going to sell me fruit at three dollars a pound, so that' ; s all I' ; m going to pay you." ; And Nino said, " ; eh-eh." ; (gestures with her finger as if saying no). So, he was then out there exploring new avenues. But, it didn' ; t take long before that fruit just sat in the store and wouldn' ; t sell. No matter what the price was. Because people had expectations of what they had seen before. Wheeler: Yes, wow. Very interesting. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: Thank you so much for sharing this part of para-agriculture, which is a pretty new phrase to a--phase for a lot of us. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. It was new to me. Wheeler: And the up--the fact that we are the largest county in the United States with that kind of urban and city mixture makes it even more diversified and more interesting to live here. It' ; s not wonder to me that the price of land has gone up as much as it has. It' ; s very desirable. The--We are, however, in my humble opinion, at a cusp of which direction are we going in the future. And how will agriculture look in twenty years from now. But, you' ; ve given us a wonderful foundation for how it came this far, what kind of innovation it took, what kind of knowledge. It' ; s not for the weak--physically, mentally, or otherwise. And I' ; m so appreciative of what you' ; ve done. Thank you so much. Cupaiuolo: Oh, it' ; s been my pleasure. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Title
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Cupaiuolo, Susan. Interview February 23, 2023
Description
An account of the resource
The Primavera Orchard was owned and operated by Giovanni and Susan Cupaiuolo from 1991 until Nino’s death in 2020 in Vista, California. It was a six acre peri-urban farm specializing in the growth, preparation, promotion and detailed hand-pollinated fruit from a variety of cherimoya trees. Cherimoya trees are a tropical fruit tree which will only grow in Southern California and are very expensive due to the complicated and dedicated care of the trees and cultivations. The Cupaiuolos later introduced blueberries to the area to provide this northern fruit into the local markets during the northern dormant season. Other fruits and vegetables were grown for personal use.
Identifier
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SC027-24
Subject
The topic of the resource
Blueberries
Cherimoya
Orchards -- California -- Vista
Tree crops
Date
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2023-02-23
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video
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Susan Cupaiuolo
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Lucy Wheeler
Coverage
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Vista (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Susan Cupaiuolo
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving image
Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5af2f72446a3d7bf9cdf8db3952005c8.pdf
defee5e2470badc29a52a43f13afacbe
PDF Text
Text
SUSAN CUPAIUOLO
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-02-23
Lucy Wheeler: Good afternoon. My name is Lucy Wheeler and it’s February the 23rd, 2023.
We’re here to interview Susan—
Susan Cupaiuolo: Cupaiuolo.
Wheeler: Kupaiyalo. Thank you. (Cupaiuolo chuckles) Uh, this is in behalf of the North County
Oral History Initiative being put on by Cal State and San Marcos and the Museum of History
here in San Marcos. The history of our North County—and just as a preliminary to your story,
Susan—the county of San Diego is a very unique situation in that it’s the ninth largest city in the
United States, but it’s in the community of the county. The fourth largest industry is agriculture,
and most of that, or 70% of that, is soon to be in the North County. Part of that agricultural
industry makes it a–well, it’s the largest area in the United States with the most farms. Your
story shows one of the areas of that agriculture which is kind of overlooked, and that is, in 2017
the county of San Diego estimated and actually counted that there were 5,000 small parafarmers, which is ten acres or less, and how they operate. And your story can bring us a wealth of
information to that. So, with that beginning, tell us a little bit about yourself, your husband,
where you were born, and what your interest in agriculture was.
Cupaiuolo: (nods) I’d be glad to give some background on this. My husband was Giovanni Nino
Cupaiuolo. He died in October 2020 at the height of the pandemic. Uh, he was 86 years old. He
had been in declining health physically and cognitively, and I just wish that he were here to tell
this adventure, but I’ll do my best to–to share it. Um, I’m going to call him “Nino.” He grew up
in Milan, Italy during World War II. He had one brother. His father was from Naples and his
mother from Sicily. Farming was not in his background, and, um, I’m setting that up as making
sure we don’t have these assumptions about Italians who grew up on farms and have these big
families, okay? Because that’s–that’s not the–the way it was for him. He had a master’s degree in
international marketing, and he spoke four languages. He sold industrial instrumentation in
Europe and in the United States for over forty years. His first wife was an American. She worked
at the U.S. Consulate in Milan. She was from Riverside, and they eventually settled with their
three children in Orange County. For the first time, they had a yard! You know. Growing up in
Milan, apartment, maybe you have a balcony with some pots. But the garden that he had, and
they had chickens and the kids loved it. He learned that he loved growing things.
Nino and I met and married in Michigan, where I am from. I was teaching and he was working
there selling to the auto industry. He was transferred again in 1988 and we moved to Orange
County. So, how did a schoolteacher from western Michigan and an Italian end up with a sixacre farm in north San Diego County? Well, I have to say at this point that it was driven by Nino,
who was looking for a place to enjoy his retirement. I was happy teaching in Huntington Beach,
but his territory stretched from San Diego to L.A. and beyond and he was on the road a lot. On
Friday, one Friday, in 1991, he was returning from San Diego and he stopped off at a–a nursery
in North Vista and, um, when he arrived home he said, “I’ve found where we’re going to retire.”
So, the next day we started looking, and we found two acres on a subdivided avocado grove off
of Gopher Canyon Road. And the journey began!
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�SUSAN CUPAIUOLO
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-02-23
At first, we commuted to the property on the weekends, and it–it was–it was perfect. It was
hectic, but it was perfect. The Fuerte avocados there were in decline, and they were alive but
failing, because after the introduction of the Hass variety, the–the cultivar, um, Fuerte fell out of
favor. So, the 45-acre grove was subdivided into two-to-four-acre plots and put up for sale. So,
what do you do with aging avocado trees? You stop watering them because avocados need 40
inches of rain a year. So, it didn’t take long. When the adjacent four acres became available, we
were able to buy them as well and that included a grove of already-producing persimmons—
Hachiyas and Fuyus. So, that gave us a place to start. We moved to the farm in 1994, fixed up a
small house on the property, and over the next year we removed all of the metal irrigation pipes
(chuckles) and those dead avocado trees. By the way, avocado wood makes great firewood. We
were selling it and giving it away for years!
Okay, enough background. What does it take to have a small farm? Well, besides resources like
land and equipment and irrigation, you need physical energy and strength (chuckles) and a lot of
knowledge based on research. And that would include—before you even get started—the
microclimate, the soil, the water sources. And then you have to choose, based on that
information, what to grow! Well, Nino wanted fruit trees. Okay. As I was saying, he was the
driver of all of this (chuckles), so I was just along for the ride. But, he, in particular, wanted
cherimoyas, and that was because he had the year before, out of curiosity, bought a cherimoya
fruit at a market and he loved it. He saved the seeds, and he planted them in pots. In fact, there
was a cherimoya tree on the property, right by the front door! After much research—this was in
1993—early days of the internet, okay? But, we learned that cherimoyas would do really well in
our area. Not from seed, however. (indicates “no” with her left pointer finger, and clears her
throat.) It–it took a big commitment, that’s for sure, because choosing to grow trees requires a
longer-term outlook. Depending on how much time and money you have, you have to, um,
invest, because the trees will take three to five years, or more, to produce, while row crops, like
flowers or microgreens, for example, they can be seasonal. It was a big decision. It was a certain
amount of trial and error—grafting, pollinating, planting. But, as it’s important to small farms in
choosing a unique or niche product, not supplied (again indicated “no” with her finger) by
larger farmers, it worked out! Now, at the time, that really wasn’t our focus, but it proved to be a
huge advantage.
A little bit about cherimoyas. They’re a subtropical fruit, native to the mountain valleys of Peru
and Ecuador. It can be large, often heart-shaped. (Reaches for a fruit and holds it up for the
camera while the camera pans in.) I can show you one. (Lays it back down, and begins to rub
her hands together). They have overlapping scales—that’s what people call them, anyway. But,
inside, it is white, and it has a custardy texture and it tastes like pineapple, banana, papaya, and
in some varieties, even a pear! (Holds up a book with header reading “Gallery of Subtropical
Plants” and contains a photo of the fruit and a cherimoya tree as well as textual information.
Camera pans in on the page with the fruit image.) Southern California provides the–the best
conditions in the United States for growing cherimoyas. The largest plantings are near Santa
Barbara where most of that fruit is exported to Asia. The season is late winter to spring, so
depending on the variety, that’s from November, December to March and April. The tricky thing
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TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-02-23
(rubs her hands together) about growing cherimoyas is the pollination. Each blossom is both
male and female, but bees are too big to enter this fleshy flower. To get full-sized fruit, hand
pollination with a paintbrush is the key. It’s labor intensive in June, July, and August. It’s not
difficult, but it is time consuming. Now, (looks to her left, towards the fruit) part of farming has
to be knowing the microclimate and (clears her throat) in general, in San Diego, people know
the difference between the–the cool coastal and the warmer inland valleys. But (rubs hands)
even with careful research on the–on the property, it’s–it can throw you some–some confusing
conditions, because, uh, there are different temperatures. You can have diff–places with sun, and
soil, and wind. On our property, which dropped off to a–a canyon, the temperature dropped
dramatically, including frost, and the prevailing westerly winds were an issue. We were able to
grow for ourselves in that canyon, apples, cherries, pears, fruits that needed a lot of chill time.
But we weren’t selling those. (clears her throat, plane can be heard in the background)
We also ended up, though, having to plant a wind break to protect the cherimoyas (chuckles) that
we had planted. Who knew! But, we chose wisely because we chose Satsuma tangerines, which
proved to be–be– very popular, so it all worked out. (clears her throat again)
Some research was more scientific because soil and water can be tested for pH and salinity and
minerals, and there are a lot of excellent resources out–out there that–that I need to, uh,
recommend, because um,—I’m going to read this just to make sure I get it correct—um, the
University of California Cooperative Extension has the names of labs. Okay, you have to pay for
them. But, especially soil analysis is–is important, because you need to understand the plants
ability to absorb nutrients. You can even take them leaves from your plants, and they will
analyze whether they are taking up nutrients as needed.
I also want to recommend specific groups like—we had the California Rare Fruit Growers.
There’s a–a branch in North County and also one at Balboa Park. There’s the California
Cherimoya Association and other fruits have their Associations as well. And, of course, the
United States Department of Agriculture. And I can’t forget the Master Gardener Association,
because they have workshops and blogs and so much information. And in the past 20 to 30 years,
it’s been easy to find information, easier, because of the internet. And whether you’re planting,
or pruning, or harvesting, a YouTube video can teach you (starts to chuckle) just about anything
you want! And they’re fun! So, research is easier. But I still have to say that contact with people
is key. The University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department—that’s
called the U.C.A.N.R.—is including–includes the County of San Diego Cooperative Extension
and the Farm and Home Advisor—that’s by county. And–and another part of the U.C.A.N.R. is
the South Coast Research and Extension Center in Irvine, and (clears throat) it’s a living
laboratory for U.C. scientists where they are conducting agricultural research. It’s a 200-acre
facility, where they have outdoor events and demonstrations and classrooms. They have a
glasshouse there. And they also have a huge cherimoya collection of trees that is just beautiful.
And, of course, that was our connection to that place, besides the great people who are there.
So, relationships and talking about them, kind of brings me to the selling part of all of this,
because when we had enough fruit to sell, the Vista Farmer’s Market was a consideration. But
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TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-02-23
Nino decided to try small, family-owned, independent grocers first. Not chains (indicates “no”
with her left finger). They won’t even talk to you. Even Sprouts won’t buy from individual
farmers. So, let’s find places where they will buy locally. Now, farmer’s markets do have
advantages—meeting other farmers, learning about crops, meeting the public. But, they require
labor time away from the farm and picking for unknown demand in advance. And that, with fruit
on trees, is problematic. So as an experienced (chuckles) salesman, Nino knew to find out what
the customer wanted, and he harvested by their needs! He would check their stock, or they would
call. Sometimes he would deliver two to three times a week, especially during times like the
Lunar New Year, things like that. That special attention is what builds relationships and loyalty.
He also learned to sell by (chuckles) uniform size. They didn’t want all different sizes of fruit.
They wanted uniform. But then he had to be creative, too. And he was always making sure that
he was interacting with the produce people at the store, whether they’re the guys putting out the
fruit or the managers, because that kind of connection does it all.
So, (sighs) pre-pandemic, Nino was even doing free tastings at Frazier Farms which was one of
his main sources, uh, sales–of sales. He–he would cut up (gestures cutting with a knife)
cherimoyas and take them there and they weren’t well known but once people tried them, they
were going to buy. Now, at one point, customers would see Nino delivering and they would stop
him in the parking lot, asking to buy fruit themselves. He declined right away, partly because of
the amount that they wanted. He realized that they were going to be reselling and competing with
his customer right there in the store. So, it would be also disruptive to have these people coming
to the property and wanting to buy, so, no. But it did get Nino thinking about sharing the
experience of the farm. MeetUp groups were starting at that time. They were the thing, like
signing up online for different activities. So, we started having U-Picks. We set up two timeslots
on Saturday mornings, where people could sign up online, and they would come and Nino would
give a presentation on the farm and the different fruits, and I provided samples of fruit and
preserves and–and cherimoya ice cream and recipes. Oh, they loved that! So, it was a success.
Families came with their kids, mostly from San Diego proper, you know. They were city people.
But they were enjoying an outing in the country, and they enjoyed the property. They loved
picking the fruit. So, these are people who wanted their kids to know where fruit comes from!
Wow! (laughs) And the kids especially liked picking the tangerines.
We made a lot of friends over the ten years that we did that, and we got to watch those kids grow
up. They–they also liked feeding my chickens. Now, some customers—I put that in quotes
(gestures making quotation marks with her hands) ‘cuz yes they were customers but they became
friends and they would volunteer to come and help during the summer with the hand pollination
and the–of the cherimoyas and so we–we had some–some really good connections that way. We
even found a couple of paid workers from that group.
Now, over the years, we had a lot of visitors to the farm. Um, usually by word of mouth or
connections to the Farm Bureau, and that would include restaurant owners, especially Asian and
South American, produce managers from independent grocers. I think of Barons Market,
especially, because we had one produce manager from one store come and pretty soon all of the
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stores were buying from us. We even had wholesale produce managers (rubs hands together),
um, specialty produce in the San Diego. They–they sell to the public, but they would come and–
and visit and see the farm. And we also had students come to visit. They were from Cal Poly
Pomona and there’s a College of Agriculture Plant Sciences there, and they were taking a class.
I–I remember Dr. Greg Partida, who retired in 2010, but he had a class on subtropical fruit
production and he would bring his students on field trips to the farm.
So, that socialization is so important because farming, even on a small farm, can be really
isolating. There’s so much to do, day-to-day. People, since the pandemic, working from home,
have found out how strange that is, really, that instead of going to the office every day, they’re–
they’re at home. And–and that’s kind of like what it’s–what it is to–to be a small farmer, too.
I wanted to talk a little bit about, um, record keeping, because it’s so impart–important in
farming and with the advent of the internet and–and computers, it’s changed a lot. But, it’s still
a–a beneficial skill set, whether you’re talking about taxes, or income, or expenses, or irrigation,
equipment, payroll, any of that. But, um, another use for–for keeping track of–of information is
monitoring the production of the–the crops, whether it’s by varieties, where they’re growing on
the property, the quality from year to year. And an example of this is really in–in Nino’s
participation in the–the Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program, which was twenty
years ago.
Now, traditionally blueberries were a cold weather plant that would go dormant every year. In
California, the plants bloom year-round, and they wear themselves out. So, Nino, once again,
wanted to plant things that no one else plants and there was a lot of research going on as to how
to extend the blueberry’s range. Through the Farm and Home Advisor Ramiro Lobo, Nino was
given four plants each of nine different varieties of southern blueberries. The soil pH that we had
was way too alkaline and it had to be augmented. Temperature had to be monitored. Pests
considered. The Farm Bureau was very supportive throughout all of this. They even ended up
building us a netted structure to keep the birds off. But, Nino was instrumental in monitoring and
recording the blossoms, the fruit, the production for each plant. They called him Mr. Spreadsheet
(both she and Wheeler chuckle). Well, Excel to the rescue, you know? Because, in–and—I–I
have a–a photo of him here, if you’d like to see, where he is, um, (shows a photo of Nino,
camera pans in) taking the blossoms off of the blueberry plants. Now, why would he be doing
that? You know? For two years, he did that, so that the young plants could use their energy to
grow. And then he would take the berries from each variety and weigh them and–and count
them, and that’s how they decided which varieties would be the most productive in southern
California. Now, there were other farmers doing that too, but in 2002, California produced two
million pounds of blueberries. Okay. Twenty years later, 53.4 million pounds of blueberries,
sixth in the United States. This boom is due to technological growing skills and adventurous
producers, and he was part of all of that.
My part with the blueberries was, (clears her throat) when I retired from teaching, then I was in
charge of the blueberries. Okay. But think of it this way. Four dollars for six ounces (gestures as
if telling a secret)—I was selling them at school. So, that translates to twelve dollars a pound.
Transcribed by
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�SUSAN CUPAIUOLO
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-02-23
Now, what ev–other fruit is going to sell for twelve dollars a pound! In the past ten years, in the
United States, the output of blueberries has tripled. And that’s in the U.S. alone. And the main
states are Washington, Georgia, and my home state, Michigan. So, why is that increased so
much. Because of the research talking about antioxidants. So, in ten years, they have become
really huge crop.
Okay, today, what country do you think grows the most blueberries? I’ll tell you. Peru! Is that
somethin’ or what? Which, for me, is kind of a full circle because that’s where cherimoyas are
from.
Okay. So, I have just a little bit more, because I sold the farm after Nino’s death. I had three
people interested. One couple wanted it as an investment, (said in nasal utterance) ehh. Another
couple ended up buying a larger property in Valley Center. But, the–the family that I–I sold to
love it there, and they’re trying to keep it going. They have no clue how much work it takes,
especially with their three kids and two dogs, but hey. That’s–that’s–that’s their issue. They’re
keeping it going, and I–I–I wish them all the best.
Now, (clears her throat) when it–when it comes to innovation in farming, I guess that–that–that
besides his interaction with people, innovation was something that–that Nino was very attracted
to, because he was always trying new irrigation. We had installed a–a well, which saved on
water. But electricity was expensive. So, we invested in solar panels. And in the year 2000, we
were one of the fifty original installations of net metering in the–in the county. So, it was always
somethin’, you know. We had a cell tower on the property. Very good income. Verizon had been
pursuing us for several years for that. And finally we were able to get them to choose a location
and (chuckles) give us a fake tree design that was acceptable that we couldn’t see from the house.
So, always moving forward with something, that is the exciting part of changes and I mentioned
these as evidence because technological innovation in all our lives, including farming, is key.
What’s next? (puts up her hands, palms facing camera) I don’t know. Robots? (laughs) I don’t
know! But–but Nino was able to embrace new ideas and change. And new farmers are going to
have to do the same.
Wheeler: Oh. Thank you so much. It’s so exciting because we are all changing no matter what
we–what we do. The—I was really curious about—say more about how innovative—what–what
made him feel that way, think that way. Curiosity coming from another country and embracing
so many differences, but being innovative with that help, maybe in spite of it sometimes.
Cupaiuolo: Well, he had many different abilities. I had mentioned that he spoke four languages.
His father was an artist, and Nino was very artistic. So, he had a very creative part of his
personality, besides being just so outgoing. And, um, he loved to–to try new things.
Wheeler: And that is wonderful! The other thing that I think depicts all of this was the number of
articles written about him and that he helped promote, and to let the world know how he was,
um, being innovative―
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Cupaiuolo: Uh-huh.
Wheeler: ―in a very creative way. And that personality came across, and people accepted that.
Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm.
Wheeler: And there was so much camaraderie in it. Did you ever do tours of your farm?
Cupaiuolo: Uh, yes, there were farm tours that were set up. And people, through the Farm
Bureau, would come from different parts of the country, even. They would come on a bus!
(shrugs) Because small farms, for a long time really, have been a focus of–of many different
states. We even had the president of the University of California come on one of the–the tours,
and wrote us a–a very nice thank you letter afterward, because they were interested in how much
they should be focusing on the part of the University of California that was devoted to
agriculture and farming.
Wheeler: That’s great. Would—sometimes when we’re driving in the freeway and it’s pretty
much a parking lot for a couple of hours of the day, and we get this vision of wouldn’t it be nice
to be on a little farm or little acreage somewhere, do you have any advice to people who have
that dream.
Cupaiuolo: (purses her lips and blows out air, then clears her throat) Well, I think that it takes
more than people think in terms of resources and, um, research (chuckles), and it–it’s not
something to jump into lightly. It is possible to buy a farm that’s already operating, and that–
that’s what the young family did from–from me, last year. So—
Wheeler: And the cost of real estate has made that less available to a lot of people, too.
Cupaiuolo: Well, that is–that–that’s (nodding)
Wheeler: So much going on in this farming industry. That’s why it’s very important to have the
history of how it has been, in order to build on to the future. Do you happen to have a photo of
Nino?
Cupaiuolo: I do! (reaches to her right, and pulls out a photo). What is–what’s happening to that.
There it is!
Wheeler: Oh, and he has some of the cherimoyas.
Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm.
Wheeler: That one is large! How large do they get?
Cupaiuolo: Well, that was a three pounder.
Wheeler: Mmm–wow.
Cupaiuolo: Yeah, that–that would be fifteen dollars right there.
Wheeler: Yes.
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Cupaiuolo: And you know what? People would buy them!
Wheeler: It’s amazing the costs of them. But now that I understand more about the–the detail and
the–the labor intensiveness of it, um—
Cupaiuolo: Course, if that–that wouldn’t all be fruit-less, if people didn’t love the fruit. So—
Wheeler: Right. Exactly. Um—
Cupaiuolo: But, hey, look at what we pay for blueberries per month.
Wheeler: Do you know of any other orchards that are doing that right now? Or is it a popular—
Cupaiuolo: For the cherimoya?
Wheeler: Yes.
Cupaiuolo: Not that I know of. I mean, there are people on the side. Competition. There was a
guy in Oceanside who had purchased a cherimoya orchard and he had small, misshapen fruit.
And he offered to sell it to Frazier Farms for three dollars a pound rather than the five dollars a
pound that we were selling fruit. So the produce manager from Frader–Frazier Farms came to
Nino and said, “I have this guy that’s going to sell me fruit at three dollars a pound, so that’s all
I’m going to pay you.” And Nino said, “eh-eh.” (gestures with her finger as if saying no). So, he
was then out there exploring new avenues. But, it didn’t take long before that fruit just sat in the
store and wouldn’t sell. No matter what the price was. Because people had expectations of what
they had seen before.
Wheeler: Yes, wow. Very interesting.
Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm.
Wheeler: Thank you so much for sharing this part of para-agriculture, which is a pretty new
phrase to a—phase for a lot of us.
Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. It was new to me.
Wheeler: And the up—the fact that we are the largest county in the United States with that kind
of urban and city mixture makes it even more diversified and more interesting to live here. It’s
not wonder to me that the price of land has gone up as much as it has. It’s very desirable. The—
We are, however, in my humble opinion, at a cusp of which direction are we going in the future.
And how will agriculture look in twenty years from now. But, you’ve given us a wonderful
foundation for how it came this far, what kind of innovation it took, what kind of knowledge. It’s
not for the weak—physically, mentally, or otherwise. And I’m so appreciative of what you’ve
done. Thank you so much.
Cupaiuolo: Oh, it’s been my pleasure.
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GLOSSARY
Barons Market (pg.5)
California Cherimoya Association (pg.3)
California Rare Fruit Growers (pg.3)
Cherimoya (pg.2)
College of Agriculture Plant Science [Cal Poly Pomona] (pg. 5)
Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program (pg.5)
County of San Diego Cooperative Extension (pg.3)
Farm and Home Advisor (pg.3,5)
Farm Bureau (pg.5)
Frazier Farms (pg.4)
Fuerte avocados (pg.2)
Fuyu persimmons (pg.2)
Hachiya persimmons (pg.2)
Hass [avocado] (pg.2)
Lobo, Ramiro (pg.5)
Lunar New Year (pg.4)
Master Gardener Association (pg.3)
Museum of History [San Marcos] (pg.1)
North County Oral History Initiative (pg.1)
Para-agriculture (pg.8)
Para-farmers (pg.1)
Partida, Dr. Greg (pg.5)
Satsuma tangerines (pg.3)
South Coast Research and Extension Center (pg.3)
United States Department of Agriculture (pg.3)
University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department [U.C.A.N.R.] (pg.3)
University of California Cooperative Extension (pg.3)
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U-Picks (pg.5)
Valley Center (pg.6)
Vista Farmer’s Market (pg.4)
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Cupaiuolo, Susan. Interview transcript. February 23, 2023
Description
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The Primavera Orchard was owned and operated by Giovanni and Susan Cupaiuolo from 1991 until Nino’s death in 2020 in Vista, California. It was a six acre peri-urban farm specializing in the growth, preparation, promotion and detailed hand-pollinated fruit from a variety of cherimoya trees. Cherimoya trees are a tropical fruit tree which will only grow in Southern California and are very expensive due to the complicated and dedicated care of the trees and cultivations. The Cupaiuolos later introduced blueberries to the area to provide this northern fruit into the local markets during the northern dormant season. Other fruits and vegetables were grown for personal use.
This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos.
Creator
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Susan Cupaiuolo
Contributor
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Lucy Wheeler
Melissa Martin
Date
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2023-02-23
Subject
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Blueberries
Cherimoya
Orchards -- California -- Vista
Tree crops
Coverage
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Vista (Calif.)
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English
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Susan Cupaiuolo
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text
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CupaiuoloSusan_WheelerLucy_2023-02-23_transcript
Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience
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Oral History
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Interviewer
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Seth Stanley
Interviewee
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Jennie Ruiz
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5.4 2023-04-07 Ruiz, Jennie. Interview April 7, 2023 SC027-029 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral histories collection CSUSM This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos. California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Student success Jennie Ruiz Seth Stanley mp4 RuizJennie_StanleySeth_2023-04-07.mp4 1:|40(5)|52(10)|66(9)|77(15)|94(11)|105(8)|118(2)|135(1)|148(7)|166(14)|186(3)|212(2)|223(3)|235(3)|255(3)|273(1)|282(3)|292(4)|304(7)|342(5)|353(8)|368(2)|378(4)|388(3)|399(13)|410(1)|457(10)|468(7)|486(7)|510(1)|519(10)|529(9)|539(3)|549(4)|595(6)|606(1)|621(8)|633(13)|677(3)|690(1)|699(12)|713(1)|723(1)|736(10)|753(7)|764(3)|775(1)|794(6)|817(2)|837(9)|847(10)|860(10)|874(5)|885(2)|895(3)|937(11)|957(9)|968(3)|982(2)|1003(2)|1015(12)|1026(3) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/514cb50273b20f4b16cea6c5712830f4.mp4 Other video English 1 Introductions Introductions from Seth Stanley and Jennie Ruiz 34 Biographical/Educational Background Ruiz describes her personal and educational background. 85 Work During Education. Ruiz recalls working as a student and how it lead to her career in enabling student success in higher education. 187 Discovering Counseling Career Path Ruiz speaks about her beginnings of counseling as a career path and what led her to California State University San Marcos. 281 Experiences working for Student Success Ruiz recalls experiences supporting student success on campus, work as a peer mentor, the special-ness of the CSUSM student body, her work in the Dean of Students Office. CSUSM ; Student Success ; Student Success Coaching 555 Leadership Style and Experience Ruiz speaks about her leadership roles and leadership style in a university setting. CSUSM ; Faculty ; Leadership ; Staff ; Student Success Coaching 710 Network and Relationships on CSUSM Campus Ruiz details her networking skill and speaks about the relationships she's built at CSUSM CSUSM ; Faculty ; Networking ; relations ; Student Affairs 934 Relationships with Students and Building Rapport Ruiz speaks about her relationships with students on campus, building relationships with students and understanding their needs. CSUSM ; Faculty ; O-Team ; Orientation ; Student Relations ; Students ; Team-building 1162 Initial Experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center Ruiz speaks to her initial experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center, how she interacted with the CCC in her role overseeing student orientation, and what the center's physical space was initially like. C3 ; CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Jennie Ruiz ; SLL ; Student Life and Leadership 1260 Cross-Cultural Center's Change Over Time Ruiz recalls how the Cross-Cultural Center changed over time, how the space where the CCC was located in relation to other parts of Student Life and Leadership, and the center's move to the Commons Building, work on a collaborative mural, and then the move to the University Student Union building. C3 ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Floyd Lai ; Jennie Ruiz ; SLL ; Student Life and Leadership ; Tukwut Courtyard 1791 Friendship With Sara Sheikh-Arvizu Ruiz describes her friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu, former Associate Director of Multicultural Programs at CSUSM. CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Jennie Ruiz ; Sara Sheikh ; Sara Sheikh-Arvizu 2080 Favorite Memories From Cross-Cultural Center Ruiz recalls working at the front desk of the Cross-Cultural Center, and remembers a student with significant mental health challenges, who found refuge and friendship at the CCC. C3 ; CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Jennie Ruiz ; NSYCH ; Students 2344 How the Cross-Cultural Center Helped Her Develop as a Professional Ruiz speaks to the impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on her as a professional, her privilege, and centering voices in programming. Ruiz recalls a workshop with the campus Jewish community. CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; intentionality ; Jennie Ruiz ; Privilege 2652 Memories from the Peer Mentoring Program Ruiz recalls some of her experiences with the creation of the Peer Mentoring Program and recalls an overnight retreat. CSUSM ; Floyd Lai ; New Students ; Peer Mentoring Program ; Retreats ; Sara Sheikh ; Team Building 2956 Thoughts on the Significance of Identity-Specific Spaces Ruiz speaks to the importance of having identity-focused university spaces like the Black Student Center, the Latin
/x Center, etc, which champion underrepresented communities and assist with student success. ACE Scholars ; Community ; CSUSM ; Diversity ; EOP ; Equal Opportunity Program ; Identity-Specific Spaces ; Underrepresented 3354 Cross-Cultural Center and the Purpose of Identity-Specific Spaces Ruiz expands on why identity-specific spaces are necessary and what groups benefit from them. She also goes on to speak about the role the Cross-Cultural Center plays with the expansion of identity-specific spaces. APIDA ; C3 ; CCC ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM ; Identity Specific Spaces ; Jennie Ruiz ; Kamalayan Alliance ; Pacific Islanders Moving image Oral history interview of Jennie Ruiz for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project on April 7, 2023. Biographical information about Jennie, how she started working for California State University San Marcos, her leadership and networking skills. Jennie’s friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu and its impact on her. Her experience running the Cross-Cultural Center, and her thoughts about its role at CSU San Marcos. Seth Stanley [Interviewer]: This is Seth Stanley. Today I' ; m interviewing Jenny Ruiz for the California State University San Marcos Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Hi Jenny. Thank you for coming. Jennie Ruiz [Narrator]: Hi, Seth < ; laughs> ; . SS: To start out, uh, can you tell me a little bit about your background and how that maybe has influenced your work in higher education? JR: Oh, goodness. Okay. Background. How far do you, how do you, how far do you want me to go? SS: As long as you want. JR: Oh goodness. Well, I was born, no, um-- SS: Go for it. JR: Background. Um, so I' ; m born and raised in San Diego, um, from Mira Mesa originally, um, went to college up at Sonoma State. For my undergrad. And did, um, got my degree in sociology. So I did a few different majors, but then I landed on sociology cause I had a really great Intro to Soc[iology] professor who I really enjoyed. Um, and through my time at Sonoma State, I got involved in various things. I mainly had to work on campus just to pay bills and live and all that. So I worked in like different food service and I worked in retail off campus, and actually told the story last, it was, what was it, Tuesday at a session I led about my like, professional journey. But I had a, a job on campus where I was having to put up flyers across campus and I hated it. I would have like hundreds of flyers to post. Um, this is before lot. This is before like electronic signage and all of that. So I, um, and I was miserable but I saw a flyer for a job in the Career Center on campus and I' ; m like, thank goodness no one else has seen this ad at this point ' ; cause I' ; m putting the ads up, so I' ; m gonna apply for this job, which I did. And that kind of took me into this path of, um, of higher ed and student affairs. It kind of opened me up into, like the orientation, you know, kind of world new student orientation, ' ; cause a lot of things were run through that area. Academic advising, I interacted with, um, the program called Freshman Seminar there, which is similar to our GEL program here [program geared towards first-year students and student success in academia]. So I served in various leadership roles. I actually got, uh, I was on the dean' ; s list one semester. There, grades were never my thing, but one semester I got on the dean' ; s list and I got an invitation to apply for leadership positions on campus. So that in conjunction with my job in the Career Center just kind of launched me into kind of the higher ed. like, oh, this is kind of fun! So I was an orientation leader. I worked as a peer mentor in our freshman seminar class. I was a student assistant [at the] Career Center. And then once I graduated, I was looking into kind of a counseling area. Um, didn' ; t quite know what I was going to do and my dad, funny enough, got me a book called What to Do with a Sociology Degree, and I was reading it one day and there was a paragraph on college counseling and I was like, of course I could do this job for work! I had never even connected [that] the professional staff that I worked with were doing that as a career. So that kind of, you know, launched me and I applied for grad school. I went to USD [University of San Diego] for my master' ; s in counseling with a specialization in college student development. Worked in my orientation, worked in the orientation program there as a grad assistant. And then after that, got a job at Stony Brook University in New York as a residence hall director. Um, my friend tipped me off to a job that was here at Cal State San Marcos to be Coordinator of New Student Programs. So I applied for that job and I thankfully got it. And, um, that started my career here back in 2006, back when, funny enough, C3 [Cross-Cultural Center] was literally, I think the size of this room when I first started on the fourth floor, third floor of, um, no, the administrative building past, then [named] Craven Hall. So, and then since then I' ; ve just held a variety of positions and here I am. < ; laugh> ; . SS: [Inaudible] Tell me more about what motivated you to work in a specifically a college setting and specifically supporting student success. JR: Yeah. I think people go into higher ed or any of their professions for one or two reasons: either they had a really good experience or they had a really awful experience and didn' ; t want that to be repeated for somebody else. In my case, I had a fantastic college experience. I had great mentors, I had really great opportunities. Um, so I felt very fortunate. And I just, you know, in my work as a peer mentor in the freshman seminar class, I was meeting individually with these first time freshmen, really working with them and, and you know, talking with them about just life and how to connect and find their place on campus. And I found myself really enjoying it and kind of becoming-- it was a natural thing to me. Um, and so I think I wanted to feel that in my career, be able to really take that with me. And, one of the great things about I think this campus, but just the CSU [California State University] is I think our students are just so special and just work so hard. Not saying that students don' ; t work hard other places but that there' ; s something about our students here. Um, there' ; s a lot of gratitude, there' ; s a lot of understanding, I think, of the privilege they have of being here and getting their degree and, you know, working with that population is really, really rewarding. So, you know, did I want-- I wanted to be that for other students moving forward. But I just loved the feel of being on a college campus. There' ; s nothing like it. I now have a almost seven year-old and just, he' ; s been able to be here since when, since he was born. And just knowing that-- he actually said the other night, he' ; s like, " ; You go to college!" ; And I' ; m like, no, I don' ; t go to col-- I' ; m not a college student, I work at a college. But he just, he associates college with me. And that' ; s just, he' ; s grown up in that environment. And then my mom also worked at USD for 30 years. So, I grew up going to campus with her and hanging out with college kids who, funny enough, seemed significantly older than they do now. So, it was just always a part of, you know, who I was. And so, I felt fortunate to find a place here. SS: And, now you' ; re working as the Interim Director of Student Success Coaching, right? Can you walk us through your experiences as that at the job? JR: In the five weeks I' ; ve been in the position, < ; laugh> ; , um, it' ; s-- it' ; s been, it' ; s been really great. It' ; s actually brought me back to I' ; d say my roots here because I started here at CSUSM overseeing orientation and really working with new students and first year students and all that. So, it' ; s been fun in the short time I' ; ve been here to work with the team to really be creative about how we' ; re gonna be engaging students who are coming in this next year. We' ; re kind of in this two-- two paths right now. It' ; s the finish this semester, but then let' ; s think big and creatively for the incoming class who' ; re gonna be here in fall [20]23. So just really, learning from the team and thinking about how impactful the work that they' ; re doing can really be for the retention success of the first-time freshman coming in. So, I don' ; t know how much you know about the program but it serves first-year students who are not in an otherwise specialized program. So who are not in the Educational Opportunity Program who are not in TRIO [Student Support Services], who are not in CAMP [College Assistance Migration Program], um, ACE Scholars who are former foster youth, and then athletes or international students. So, we kind of capture the rest of the students, so don' ; t really have a home, you know, and we wanna be that contact for them to kind of have that, that person they can go to for any questions that they have just about college. Um, so it' ; s going well. I' ; m really enjoying it. I' ; m able to be creative and think through things and plan, which is something I love to do. SS: So, I know you' ; ve only worked there for, you' ; ve only been working in this position for five weeks, but, um, could you tell me, tell me about, your leadership style and how you adapted to different situations and team members? JR: Yeah, I mean, I think I can relate it to, ' ; cause I was in my old position as associate dean for almost seven years. So I' ; ve been in management leadership roles for over ten, twelve years now. But yeah it' ; s been interesting because I joined a brand new team and so I really had the chance to kind of see how I was gonna adapt myself to them and how they were gonna receive me. And you know, it' ; s funny, my first day I brought donuts and I said to them, ' ; cause this team right now doesn' ; t have a permanent space. They' ; re literally working in a temporary space right now. So my first thing was how do I provide them with a level of, you know, kind of stability and structure. So even in an absence of a physical, permanent location, they can kind of feel that stability. SS: Mm-hmm. JR: But I came in that first day and I was like, so I haven' ; t started a new job in a very long time. So I said, I just ask for your grace. But I' ; m as much as, as reasonable and appropriate, obviously it' ; s just about the human first. These are all human beings who are working in a job and if you don' ; t connect that piece and know what really matters to these people just in life, you' ; re kind of missing the mark. So my goal was, and I told people ' ; cause they wanted to meet with me, people outside my team wanted to meet with me very quickly to like talk about coaching and how I could collaborate. And I said, I want the first month to be me focusing on the team, getting to know the team, building those relationships. And so meeting with them individually and getting to know their strengths and kind of where there' ; s opportunities. But I, I' ; d say I' ; m very, I' ; m all about personal connections and relationships and being collaborative. But I' ; m also good about being, like, sometimes we just kind of have to do things and we can' ; t bring everyone into the fold, but I want to be as transparent as possible, communicate, provide, make sure people are in the loop. ' ; Cause the less transparency there is, people then start to kind of worry and, you know create a narrative themselves. And so, but also humor. I like to approach things with humor. But Yeah. SS: Well, sounds like you' ; re the right person for the job. < ; laughter> ; Um, I' ; d like to ask, how have you leveraged your networks and relationships to support student development and success? JR: Oh gosh. SS: < ; laughs> ; JR: You know, it' ; s-- so this talk I just gave on Tuesday, the Division of Student Affairs does, um, they just started this series called Conversations with Leaders. And they finally, they asked, they asked me to speak and I' ; m like, okay, because part of me is like, " ; You want me to talk? Oh, that' ; s fine!" ; So I talked a lot about this, but one of the benefits of my job, the job I had here when I first started with orientation: it' ; s such just by the nature of the job, so highly collaborative that, that set me up for how I have literally done everything else in every other position I have here on campus. So, it had me working with event planning, with catering, with parking facilities, with advising, with, you know, leadership to student life. Like I work with every area on campus. And so through that, and I' ; m asking people to do things when I don' ; t have any leadership or jurisdiction over them. And so you very quickly had to establish this relationship with people so you can-- ' ; cause all I would do in that job is ask people for favors. It' ; s just, " ; I need you to do this. Can you help with this?" ; And so, and I fast forward now, there' ; s one of the colleagues I' ; ve worked with, I met him my second day working, he works in advising and now I' ; m meeting with him about coaching and how to collaborate. And it' ; s just, we laugh now that I' ; m like, talk about full circle and even doing training on some technology that we' ; re gonna be implementing into the program. The person in IT [Information Technology], I worked with him when PeopleSoft was first coming on board. And so again, it' ; s like " ; It' ; s so fun to work with you again!" ; But, all that to say, it' ; s been so key. And I think what has been very validating is when I' ; ve come into this job, the, the reactions I' ; ve gotten from people saying, " ; I' ; m so glad it' ; s you and I can' ; t wait to work with you in this role." ; And that' ; s been really affirming and I feel like because of my relationships, I' ; ve been able to, you know, there' ; s credibility. I' ; m able to connect the coaches with people that they haven' ; t connected with before. And, you know, if they have a question, I' ; m like, " ; Let me just ask this person directly, like what the answer is." ; They' ; re like, " ; You can just do that?" ; I' ; m like, " ; Yeah, I just can chat whoever, or text whoever and vice versa." ; So what I shared on Tuesday at the session was relationships is literally how I' ; ve gotten everything done here on this campus. It' ; s, it' ; s been so, so important. So I don' ; t think I answered the question? SS: No, I love that. I love that. I' ; m so glad to see you [indistinguishable]. JR: It' ; s been, it' ; s very sweet. I' ; m like, " ; Thank you!" ; It is very, because especially it' ; s people that I' ; ve worked with forever and you know, and you just want people who are collaborative and willing to hear you out and you can laugh with. And I actually said to somebody the other day on the call, I said, " ; You don' ; t have to be diplomatic with me. Just tell me there' ; s clearly something there. So just like, tell me how you' ; re feeling so we can just deal with it." ; And I think they appreciated it because with some people you have to be very diplomatic and be very discreet in how you' ; re saying things. And I' ; m like, just, " ; I' ; ve been here long enough. Like, just tell me." ; SS: [Indistinguishable] So I' ; d like to ask, how do you approach building rapport with students and understanding their unique, needs? JR: Yeah. Um, so I' ; ve had the benefit, I mean, since I' ; ve started here to work directly with students. So in my orientation job, I supervised volunteers who are on orientation team. I supervise students who were paid staff. Like those were my direct reports. So I was directly supporting and working with students. I think very similar with how I just work with anyone. I-- it' ; s so hard to describe something that I feel like just kind of happens, but I try to feel people out. You know, again, I approach a lot of things with humor, but obviously if this setting is not appropriate right, it' ; s, you know, I' ; m able to kind of feel that out. I feel like I' ; m very intuitive. Like, I joke that my superpower is intuition because I can-- I can tell-- if I know someone, I can tell like when they walk in a room and be like, there' ; s something going on or what' ; s happening, and I' ; ll just kind of give a look and be like, you let me know what you need. Like, but I just, I stop and I make efforts. I get to know people and with students, that makes, that makes a difference. You know just being visible and being authentic. Providing, you know, sharing with-- with discretion of course, but like my own personal life and connections and here and there. Um, but you know, in my old-- in my previous position, I was working with students in some really difficult circumstances ' ; cause I was overseeing student conduct. I was overseeing students who were really in a difficult situation within their life. Whether it' ; s, they' ; ve had very something very difficult happen to them and they' ; re navigating it and how they' ; re acting may not be the most appropriate in that setting. And just, um, I' ; m really good about student[s] coming in and being like, " ; What is going on? Like, what' ; s, what' ; s happening?" ; And also good about being like, what we' ; re doing here isn' ; t working. So how do we, let' ; s figure it out. So through the years I' ; ve gotten very good at being direct, but in a supportive manner? Um, some, well, supervisor joked with me, she' ; s like, " ; I' ; ve never met somebody who could suspend a student, and in the same sentence, the student, thanks you." ; < ; laugh> ; It' ; s just, it' ; s treating somebody as a human being. ' ; Cause, even if you' ; re making a decision that' ; s difficult, you can still do it with compassion. And humor too. I love to be sarcastic with students, like, especially O team [Orientation Team]. ' ; Cause I still have a connection with the students who are on orientation team. ' ; Cause my previous position, I was still in the same office and I would, they' ; d be laying down on orientation day and I' ; d just be like, " ; What are you doing?" ; They' ; re like, " ; Oh, sorry Jennie!" ; And I' ; m like, " ; Come on," ; < ; laugh> ; " ; Get your, get yourself together. Don' ; t be laying down on the job." ; So. SS: All right. Um, finally we' ; re gonna get into the Cross-Cultural Center Questions. JR: I know this is like, this is getting us-- getting me warm. Okay. SS: I Really love that. Yeah. I love, like, you' ; re just a person people can trust, a conduit of stability. JR: Conduit of stability. Oh, that' ; s deep. Okay. SS: Could you, anyway, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? JR: Mm-hmm. What I remember about C3 is what we call it. Um, so when I first started, we had, and I imagine you' ; re interviewing Alexis Monte Virgin, SS: Um, I' ; m not sure, she' ; s not one I' ; m interviewing. JR: Yeah, he was the coordinator when I first started. Um, he' ; s like a president of a university now. It' ; s amazing. So he was, he was the coordinator. The, the interaction I had with C3 when I started-- because I oversaw orientation, the Student Life and Leadership Office at the time was this compacted space in, um, past known as Craven Hall. And so when I had on orientation days, we needed a place for Orientation Team to debrief the day. So we' ; d go up to C3. So that' ; s how, that' ; s what I remember it as. We' ; d go up to, we' ; d go to C, we' ; d be sitting on the floor. They had these big red couches, the red couches, the red chairs, and, it was small, but it was like, it was cozy. But yeah, we would just be having people sit on every surface possible and have our debriefing sessions there. And that' ; s kind of my initial like, connection and, memory of how I first interacted. SS: This is a really big follow up, but, how did it shift over time? And did you have any role in this change? JR: Um, how it shifted? So, pretty quickly after I started, probably within the first year-- and I think the plans had already been happening, was we were gonna be moving spaces. We were gonna be moving, offices to the first floor, no, to the third floor [of the Administration Building]. So I don' ; t know if you' ; re familiar or not- where Ace Scholars is now, where the Tukwut courtyard is? That' ; s where Student Life and Leadership used to be. So we were already, when I first started, kind of in this future planning, dream big mode of what can Student Life and Leadership look like. But at that time, C3 was under the purview of Student Life and Leadership. So figuring out where and how that space - because it was very important to have a designated space - not have it be interweaved into our office, but have a community building location for the Center. So, I am sure that I was part of conversations because we were doing like kind of physical planning of the office, figuring out where everything was gonna kind of be. Um, because I was overseeing orientation, the space back then it was, I had this massive cubicle-- Um and then around the corner through a door was where C3 was. So it was an office physically located like right off of the general Student Life and Leadership office. So, kind of talking through and brainstorming how we were gonna fit these red couches into that space. The space was kinda like a triangle. So doing the physical kind of puzzle pieces, you know, figuring out, um, you know, what to put on the walls and to create that space was definitely part of that conversation. So, but yeah I don' ; t remember the nuances, but I would imagine because it was physically located there, we were all part of that " ; What does this look like?" ; conversation. So, um, how it' ; s evolved since then? I mean, it was in that space. And then, if I remember correctly, I don' ; t know what happened first, but a leadership program was created within Student Life and Leadership. It' ; s called SLL [Student Life and Leadership]. And, the idea was to create a Tukwut leadership. Um, is it Tukwut Leadership Center? Yeah. I think I' ; m remembering this correctly. So what ended up happening, I think a space opened up in the Commons Building directly across from Commons 206, I think is the room. And so the Cross-Cultural Center moved up there and then the [TLC], that [Tukwut] Leadership [Center] space, um, kind of a space for leadership programs and student organization meetings, stuff like that, moved into that triangle space on the third floor. So the space when it was up there was-- I mean, it was massive. It was, I mean, comparatively speaking, I mean there was, there were windows, um, there was like a welcome desk. There were the couches again, I believe. We had at one point, I don' ; t know what the timeframe was, but we had painted this like collective mural where everybody had like, it was a, program that they had brought to campus with a muralist. And they pretty much gave us different pieces to draw and paint. And that was put together, I think it' ; s still up in the C3 here in the Student Union, I wanna say. But that was up in the space and it was just bigger and more open. And I wanna say it was up there until the Student Union opened, which I wasn' ; t in as much conversation about because at that time I had transitioned more into the Data Students Office-ish role. So I wasn' ; t gonna be under the same umbrella. But I remember the conversations about the physical space in the Student Union and, the offices and having a balcony and having programming space and all of that. And so you see this space now. I mean it' ; s just, it' ; s just beautiful. And it' ; s with the balcony. And we' ; ve held some retreats in there and separate kind of staff meeting stuff. And Floyd' ; s [Lai, Director of the CCC] great. He' ; s always willing to host people. Um, so it' ; s done a lot of trainings in there and stuff like that. So, that' ; s kind of how the physical space has evolved. It' ; s gone a long way from this sized office. SS: Thank you for that. JR: Yeah. SS: So many permutations. I love the red couches. JR: The red couches. I mean, that' ; s the thing. And you probably will hear a consistent thing is this thread, the red couches is what C3 was. Like, that is what was, you know, the signature furniture there. SS: Yeah. [Indistinguishable] JR: Oh, I' ; m sure you did. SS: Anyways, um, I knew that you were temporary temporal, sorry. Temporarily responsible for the Cross-Cultural Center during a transition between associate directors. Let me ask you, what led you to that position? JR: < ; laughs> ; SS: How' ; d that Happen? JR: I don' ; t know. You know, I think, when you' ; re in a-- when you' ; re leading a department right? And somebody leaves, you' ; re kind of like, okay, who could kind of pick things up and keep them moving while we' ; re doing a search, right? I think the reason I was kind of a natural person to jump into that position and I felt very grateful to do it, was because with my work with New Student Programs and Orientation, I had collaborated with, with Sara Sheik, who remains one of my dearest friends, we had collaborated on the creation of a peer mentoring program. So it was a orientation, New Student Programs and Cross-Cultural Center, um, Multicultural Programs, collaborative program. Where we focused on pairing up first-year students from underserved, underrepresented populations. So really it was, I forget the criteria but, primarily students of color, first gen[eration] students who weren' ; t part of other specialized programs, which now I think about it, I' ; m like, that' ; s funny. That' ; s the population I' ; m working with again. So, because we had worked so closely on that and had, we' ; re really working with the staff on creating that program, and we interviewed and hired the mentors and we onboarded the mentees and all of that stuff. I think when Sara ended up leaving, I was a natural kind of-- ' ; Cause I had already been working with the, with the directors and coordinators of the other, of the other centers. I had already been working with the staff in C3 on this program. So, it was kind of a natural, you know, " ; Can you just help with this for a little bit?" ; And so that way we, you know, can have some consistency? Um, so it was a fun- SS: Yeah, I tried to find how long you were in that position. I couldn' ; t find it. How Long? JR: It was about a semest- I' ; d say it was about a semester, if not an entire semester. It was a couple of months in the spring semester of-- oh gosh, I don' ; t know what year it was. [20]10, [20]11, [20]12, around that time. Yeah, because it was before- ' ; cause I moved into the Interim Assistant Dean of Students position in January, 2013. So I would say it was probably nine [2009] or [20]10 possibly, but it was only a couple months while we worked on, hiring and getting Floyd. So. SS: Perfect. I don' ; t wanna get too sidetracked but, I' ; d like, if you' ; re willing, I' ; d like you to tell me about your friendship with Sara [Sheikh]. How is she? JR: God. Is this what she started crying about when she was asking about relationships? SS: I' ; m not sure. < ; laughs> ; JR: Oh gosh, Sara, what a special human. Um, she texted me earlier. She' ; s like, how was your interview? I' ; m like, it' ; s at three. So I' ; ll tell her that you all asked about her. Um, I remember interviewing her because when we would bring candidates on for our department, you know, we' ; d all have a chance to meet all the candidates and whatnot. She first off, she was not, how do? This is the diplomatic part of me. She was not allowed to reach her fullest potential here. Her skills and her talents were not as tapped as they possibly could have been here. She left before she should have. Um, but opportunities arose and she had to take it. But she is, we are so incredibly different, but she is a quiet, calm, intentional, just peaceful human being. Everything she does is with intention and purpose. And she' ; s one of those people in my life, and I tell her all the time, and it' ; s now her and her wife because they' ; re, they' ; re like cup filling people like you, you hang out with them, you spend time with them. And I' ; m like, okay, my soul, has been refilled. Um, not to get into politics, but this is, this is related the day of the, the day after the 2016 election, there were various emotions. And she happened to be on campus that day. She, Sara was here, this was years after she' ; d gone, but she happened to be bringing a group of students here to campus. And I told her, I said, you are the perfect and only person I would' ; ve wanted to interact with on this day. Because she' ; s so good at just like being in a space with and just allowing space and asking intentional questions. But-- and then her laugh is just so unique. Like when you get her laughing, it' ; s just like, there' ; s no laugh like it. Um, but she just, the students so highly respected her, and everything that she touched here, again she did with intention and purpose. And she makes everyone feel like literally you' ; re the only person in the room. She has nothing else to distract her. It' ; s a very intentional, like, you' ; re hearing it a, a pattern like purposeful and intentional. She' ; s just a good, good person. So, I remember, ' ; cause I tend to talk a lot and, um, and this isn' ; t fair ' ; cause you' ; re asking me to talk, so there' ; s no, there' ; s no judgment here. But I remember we were at a, we were doing a staff retreat and I had to get used to that. she would process. So, you know, somebody would ask a question and a prompt, and we had to give space for Sara because Sara needed time to kind of put all of the thoughts together and process and whatnot. And so, I' ; ve always taken that with me. But, we' ; ve, you know, she was at my wedding. I was at her wedding. She met my son when he was, you know just after he was born. I' ; ve had the privilege to, I was there the day that, they officially adopted their son. I was taking pictures and just, just one of those people, you know? Just one of those people in your life that I' ; m grateful for our relationship here. And just the connection and it, I, it' ; s one of those things where I' ; m like, thank you for allowing me to stay in your life. Because there' ; s days where I' ; m like, what do I bring to you? < ; laughs> ; Because she' ; s just so fantastic. But she would just kind of, she would brush that off and be like you' ; re nuts. So she' ; s special. SS: I love that. That' ; s incredibly great [indistinguishable]. That' ; s amazing. I know we' ; re in the little sidetrack here, but- JR: No, it' ; s fine. it' ; s all connected. SS: It' ; s all oral history, its all about people, so. JR: It Is. SS: Back to the Cross-Cultural Center. Could you tell me about a favorite memory? Or not even a favorite, just a memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center? JR: Hmm. < ; laugh> ; . SS: This is a little stumped [one]. JR: No, it' ; s not stumped. I just, there' ; s certain things that it' ; s like, I just immediately remember and I' ; m like, it doesn' ; t have to be super deep, right? SS: Mm-hmm. JR: I remember there was a period of time, I don' ; t know, I think it was before Sara left, but, um, there were ti-- I don' ; t know if she was out, but, we needed to have physical presence in the Center. And so each of the SLL staff would sign up for shifts to sit at the front desk of the center. And, I remember, I love NSYNC. It' ; s a boy band. Yeah. And I remember I was listening to Pandora at the time, it was Pandora. And I told them, I was up there, I had like a morning shift and I said, " ; If I am here at my shift, you are hearing NSYNC and boy bands." ; And it just became a thing. They' ; re like, " ; Oh, Jennie' ; s here." ; And I would just play that music. And, it was, that' ; s the first thing that kind of came to mind. It was just kind of funny. They were like, " ; Oh God, Jenny' ; s on shift." ; But it was cool because it got us physically out of our own offices and I looked forward to that, you know, physical, that physical location change. But then to interact with students in different ways. Um, God, there' ; s a lot of memories. I met a student, and I won' ; t say his name for obvious reasons you' ; ll learn shortly, but I first met him in C3 and I remember him ' ; cause he would walk in and he was always in military gear, but like not like he, he was like within the military, he was always just wearing like military-grade-- SS: Camo? JR: Yeah. He had like a, this military-grade backpack, like, the combat boots and just, and he was just the sweetest, kindest person. And I, that' ; s he, that was the first time I met him was in the C3. And he would come in there all the time and that' ; s where he would hang out and we would talk about life. And he quickly disclosed to me that he had dealt with some significant mental health challenges. And just, my brother has also dealt with some stuff and so he and I were connecting on that and just talking about life and making those connections. And I remembered he had gone away for a bit and then he had returned and he was, he was having some challenges as only a couple years ago. Unfortunately he passed away last year. But I always remember just that connection I had with him. And I realized, you know, a lot of other people on campus had that connection with him. He was just, he was just this unique soul. He was like an old soul. He dealt with so much adversity with mental and physical health, but he just always came with just a presence of kindness and just sh- like sheer gratitude. And when I-- when I changed, when I moved outta my office a couple weeks ago, ' ; cause I was in that office for nine years. One of the things I was, I was cleaning this stuff out and I found a thank you card from him. And I was like, wow, what a gift. And he had, it was after I was out of the role within relation to [C3], but it' ; s a couple years ago when I helped him with some stuff and it just said, " ; Thank you for helping me in one of the difficult times in my life." ; and I was just like, God, what a gift you just gave me. So, um, I don' ; t know if I would' ; ve had the chance to meet him had I not been in that, you know, in that physical space because I know that was a space of safety for him, which was I know the case for a lot of students, so. SS: Wow. JR: [Mm-hmm] < ; laugh> ; . SS: Sorry about that. JR: I know it' ; s tough and yeah. Yeah. SS: [indistinguishable] It' ; s remembering NSYNC Radio, at least. < ; laugh> ; JR: NSYNC Radio. But I think even with him, I still smile, you know, and um, yeah, ' ; cause again, he just exuded gratitude and it, um, yeah. So mm-hmm. SS: Well on a lighter note! Uh. JR: < ; laugh> ; , I know, sorry take these down. SS: No, no, no. It' ; s perfect. It' ; s perfect. I know you only worked there for a semester, but how might have your work at the Cross-Cultural Center helped you develop as a professional? JR: Massively. I mean, you know, as a, as a White woman, straight CIS woman, I bring privilege with me and I always am trying to learn and understand that what my physical presence may bring depending on the space and I' ; m at right? And, the majority of the students who, who hung out in that space were, were students of color, primarily students who were of Asian Pacific Islander descent. But, it was something for me to be able to-- when I first got asked to kind of fill in the role, part of me was like I didn' ; t want my own identity to be a detriment to their development. But I realize now me even just knowing that I think < ; laughs> ; makes a difference. That I' ; m aware of how my identity impacts those around me. But there were some experiences that came up that I remember we were doing, we were doing some activities-- Oh we were doing a, an event and it was around, um, Judaism, and I don' ; t remember what the content of the workshop was, but Hillel, which is still an active organization for serving and supporting Jewish students, but obviously non-Jewish students can be involved. There was some concern about us offering this workshop and possibly providing false information. And it was one of those things that in the moment you can get very defensive, right? You can be like, no, you know, we' ; re not, we' ; re not trying to do anything to whatever. But what it had me do was, you need to stop for a second and be-- again, the intentionality. It really taught me just you to think of anyone who could be potentially impacted, but also leveraging the voices that you have and collaborate and pull them in. Um, ' ; cause why wouldn' ; t have we have collaborated with folks on campus who live that on, on a daily basis and could provide some additional you know, but I was advising students at this time and the student was just doing what he was told. He was creating these workshops kind of in a vacuum. But it was a really good lesson to, again, do things as intentionally as possible. Even if it means you have to move the workshop a few weeks later, if it means we' ; re doing it the right way, let' ; s do that. So that was a really good lesson and I think it ended up being fine. We ended up collaborating with them. Um, and then just--Trying to think. I mean, just working with all different types of people and interacting with students I probably normally wouldn' ; t have just because they weren' ; t involved in Orientation Team. Like this, this particular pocket of students who worked as student assistants, within all the other centers because there was kind of like this collective team they had of- at the time the Women' ; s Center, the Pride Center, and the Cross-Cultural Center, those three centers ; our staffs would get together on a frequent basis. And there' ; s folks from other staffs that I have connected with that I' ; m still in, contact with that I probably would never have interacted with. And to be honest, they probably would never have even-- based on who I am and how I present and probably would never have even interacted with me. And so, it was a great opportunity to kind of make those connections. But, um, I learned some more things just about program planning. We, we planned some pretty big events and just again, how to honor history and culture and doing it in a meaningful manner while advising students who just wanna get things done. And it' ; s like, how do you balance that? So that was, um, that was a good experience. SS: Yeah. That' ; s great. Um, making connections. using your voices. Moving on, could you describe, and this doesn' ; t have to be with the Cross-Cultural Center ' ; cause I know you worked a pretty short time over there. Could you describe a project or initiative you with that you are particularly proud of, or were a part of necessarily? JR: Hmm. Geez, just so many SS: < ; laughs> ; JR: I think I can discuss the peer mentoring program. Although it was short-lived, I think for what it was. It' ; s one of those programs that no matter how good of a program you have, if you don' ; t have the resources to continue it, you can only do so much. And so-- but it was, it was really cool because it was kind of a brainchild of Sara and then she came to me and said, " ; You work with new students, can we just do this connection?" ; And so we really got a chance to dig into the benefits of peer mentoring and we kind of, we created it really from the ground up. We recruited current students to be peer mentors, created that training for them. And because of my work with O-Team [Orientation Team], who is solely volunteers, you know, I had a training with them, a weekly training with them on, in the spring semester, and then we had retreats. And so I was able to really bring that component. Um, and then what Sara brought was really the, the pieces of how-- why we' ; re serving this particular population because there is an equity gap that our white students are persisting at a higher rate and graduating at a higher rate than our students of color. So, and then there was research that showed that peer mentoring specifically helps to close-- is one of the most beneficial components that a student could have to have a peer to peer connection. So it was really fun to work with her on that and really create the curriculum, create the, the criteria for the mentors. And then I remember we had spreadsheets and we were divvying up the, the caseloads of like who, or not the caseloads-- of like who would be matched with certain mentors and stuff like that. Um, and so that was really fun. And then once Sara left and Floyd came on, um, I don' ; t think it was a while, but he and I had the idea to do like an overnight retreat with this program. So what we did was we had them all come together. So we' ; ve had the mentors and the mentees, this is before school even started, had them on a bus. We drove up to Julian [California] and we did kind of team-building activities. And it was really-- I remember we had this, we wanted to do a ropes course and we had, there' ; s a ropes course at this camp. And I remember Floyd and I were brought in probably three days before the retreat. And our boss at the time said, we can' ; t spend the money on this. And we' ; re like, " ; What are we supposed to do?" ; So then he and I just like hunkered down and created like our own like, internal team-building exercises, but we' ; re like, " ; What the hell are we gonna do?" ; But we figured it out. What' ; s funny now is I think it was that year, one of the mentees is now on my coaching staff. SS: < ; laughs> ; . JR: So I' ; ve known him forever and it' ; s really cool. And then funny enough we, well it' ; s not funny but, we had to buy a new car this past weekend, track me here-- and I, we go to San Diego County Credit Union because that, we had literally just paid our car off on Thursday and that' ; s when our car died. So we went back to San Diego County Credit Union. Said we wanted to get a loan with you again. And as we' ; re meeting with this loan officer, she' ; s like, where do you work? I told her, she' ; s like, " ; I knew you look familiar!" ; And my husband' ; s always like, " ; I swear to God, she knows people everywhere." ; And she said, " ; I was part of the peer mentoring program" ; and I remembered her ' ; cause she was assigned to, I would say was our best mentor ' ; cause some of our mentors left a lot to be des-- like, " ; Can you talk? Can you touch base with your students?" ; But this one -- and her last name was Ruiz as well -- and so we connected on that, but it was so cool to see this student who had been in the peer mentoring program and just being like, " ; I remember you!" ; And it was a nice little reunion. Um, but I thought it was a really cool framework to create. Um, unfortunately the resources just weren' ; t able to keep it going. So. SS: Yeah. That' ; s cool that you saw your, your one mentor--[indistinguishable] JR: It was so funny that, " ; I know you look familiar!" ; When I said I worked at campus, it was funny. SS: Yea I Know plenty of people working in the university space currently working with limited resources. Yeah, it' ; s definitely challenging. JR: It is. Especially when it' ; s such meaningful work like that. I mean, it' ; s literally to support, but now I' ; m in a space again to be able to do that same kind of work, which is exciting. SS: Mm-hmm. What is the significance of having a space that champions underrepresented students? JR: Um, I mean so much. And with underrepresented students, obviously that' ; s such a large umbrella, right? And then every group and, and community that makes up that term needs different things and there' ; s an intersectionality and all that and it can-- but you know what it really comes down to, it' ; s about equity, right? And it' ; s interesting having conversations with people who don' ; t quite get it and there' ; s people who make comments sometimes it' ; s like, " ; What about a space for us?" ; And I' ; m like, do you understand that any-- I can go somewhere and see someone who looks like me and understands my experience. I mean, generally speaking, pretty easily, if you have a student who comes to this campus and does not see anyone who looks like them during the day, does not have a faculty member teaching them who is from the same culture or community, to be able to have a space that a student knows they can go to. To have an experience that just physical and mental and emotional safety on a daily basis, for them to do homework and define that community will only help them to be better in all aspects of their life. That' ; s why programs like EOP [Educational Opportunity Program] and ACE Scholars and those programs exist because they' ; re-- every student should have access to the same level of services, right? First and foremost. But, if you look at certain populations and certain areas where students are from, they then need that much more support to get them to the same place that more majority populations are. So I think providing spaces like this is one step in providing that, that equity. Um, because I can imagine a student coming here and I' ; ve never really experienced it, but being like, " ; I don' ; t see myself here." ; They' ; re not gonna feel an emotional connection to the campus. They' ; re not gonna feel like going to class because why would they care? I mean, there' ; s some students who inherently they just have this intrinsic motivation and they' ; ll go to school and it' ; s fine. But you wanna have that, that community and sense of belonging. That' ; ll just make it that much more just robust of an experience for them. And the community pieces is massive. So spaces like this, if done well, and intentionally and has good leadership and the resources it needs. Because the thing is these centers-- and people joke a lot of times are placed in the basements of buildings, they' ; re placed in inaccessible areas that people don' ; t necessarily know about. If you do it well and put ' ; em in high traffic areas like the USU [University Student Union], have staffing and resources to really support those students, then it goes well. But just historically spaces like that are just under-resourced and which is an issue. So. SS: Yeah. Um, I guess in that same sort of area of, doing it right. Are there any aspects of your time at the Cross-Cultural Center that you would' ; ve approached differently if given the chance? JR: Mm. I, when I came in, because again, there was this like conglomerate of the three spaces. I would, and it was a really short period of time, but I got kind of sucked into their drama < ; laughs> ; , and I wish I would' ; ve come in and I don' ; t know if I had fully found my voice yet like if I, knowing what I know now about things and haven' ; t gone through when I' ; ve gone through now, I feel like I would be able to go in and be able to really help the students to be very-- To, you know to collaborate, but not necessarily be dependent on, I think, I wanted to collaborate with these other folks but I think there was almost a sense of like I had to defer to what they wanted kind of thing. And so probably it would be fun to go back in there now knowing what I know now and see how things would be different. But, I don' ; t know. I think that the state of where I was at the time, you learn based on where you' ; re at in life. And I got lessons, from it. I, um, there were-- I worked with my first student who I was aware of being undocumented at the time and just learning about that process and learning about that impact for her and just, I mean we literally, no one knew but she would, she would submit kind of a fake time sheet every month just to have this sense of normalcy and that nobody would question. And just, that was kind of my first, kind of opportunity to, to work with students experiencing those challenges. So. I can' ; t think of anything glaring. I was still I think pretty early and young in my profession. Um, so, there' ; s still days where I' ; m like, " ; You wanted me to be in there?" ; But, it worked out. But I think those are the things I can, I can think of. SS: That' ; s good. JR: Yeah. SS: More experience. JR: More experience. It' ; s all, it' ; s all experience. Yes. SS: Well, as we' ; re wrapping-- winding down, I know you mentioned before that a lot of people that would go to the Cross-Cultural Center were um-- JR: Asian Pacific Islander. SS: Oh yeah. Asian Pacific Islanders. JR: < ; laughs> ; Yes. SS: I, a lot of questions are raised around like these cultural centers, like the Black Student Center and, the Latinx Center and stuff like that. And should there be an Asian student center? Should there be a white student center? What' ; s your response to that? JR: < ; laughs> ; That' ; s my response. < ; laughs> ; Um, I mean, I think I mentioned it before about the purpose of these spaces. Everyone, every student should have access to support and resources on our campus. I do not think inherently based on the setup of society, students at particular demographics are lacking spaces where they see others like them. SS: [Mm-hmm.] JR: Like I said, things need to be, do, done well. You need to have the staffing. I think it' ; s always going to be met with some dissonance because there' ; s gonna always be people who just don' ; t get it. But the people who are the ones traditionally, and I know there' ; s people who may identify as the same within that center and say, I don' ; t think we should have, you know, separation or whatnot. But it depends where people are at on their identity development. And when you kind of go through identity development, you get to the point where you' ; re comfortable enough in your space and your skin and your whatever to understand that everyone else is in a different space and that' ; s okay. And that some students may be okay with it and some students may really need that space to be successful. And again, if having a Black Student Center allows one black man who goes to school here to have a physical space that he can go to feel safe, then I think that' ; s been successful because otherwise where would he find that here? Right. I think the people who ask those questions about, why don' ; t we have this? Why don' ; t we have this? And it' ; s like, I don' ; t-- there' ; s gonna always be people who ask those questions and they don' ; t have an answer for it. They don' ; t have anything to kind of back up, you know, you ask the question of, " ; Why do you think we need that space?" ; And they don' ; t have any, you know, there' ; s no research to back up the answers that they' ; re hoping to get. It' ; s just, they' ; re there-- The questions are just being asked, I think to kind of stir things up. But again, the caveat is: you don' ; t wanna just do it to do it to check off boxes. You need to do it as intentionally as possible. And I' ; m far from being an expert on how to implement that. But if you don' ; t have the resources and don' ; t have the institutional support, you' ; re only gonna be, you' ; re set up to fail. SS: Mm-hmm. Perfect. Great. Um, yeah, I like that answer. If it helps. It' ; s worth it. JR: Yep. Mm-hmm. SS: To conclude connecting to that question, uh, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces? JR: I would imagine, I' ; ll say Floyd specifically ' ; cause he has been the longest-tenured, um, director in there now. [Floyd] is probably been asked how he' ; s gonna be-- What is the Cross-Cultural Center? How does the Cross-Cultural Center kind of stand apart from the other identity centers? I think with the Cross-Cultural Center, although other centers talk about intersectionality and you know, and that sort of thing, I think what the Cross-Cultural Center can really focus on is really that multiculturalism, how all the different identities intersect and kind of can help to facilitate those conversations and understandings and that sort of thing. I would imagine there' ; s been conversations about-- do we have a space for, you know, our APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American] students? Because that tends to be the space that, that population tends to spend time. I think, there were conversations way back in the day where, ' ; cause they' ; re Kamalayan Alliance, I don' ; t know if it' ; s a really big organization now, but Kamalayan Alliance was a massive student organization back in the day, and that was primarily the students who made up the space in the center and some people had issues with it. It' ; s kind of like but this is not supposed to be just for Filipino students, but it' ; s like, who defines that? You know? It depends on who has a connection here and who feels connected. So, I would imagine-- I know there' ; s some campuses who have, I mean, tons of different affinity spaces and identity centers. And I' ; m sure there' ; s gonna be conversation about what, what is C3' ; s role in that? Um, I don' ; t know the answer I' ; m not privy to those conversations, but I' ; m sure the questions have come up of what is the space for this type of physical and identity space in the midst of adding all these different, identity spaces? Other campuses do it. It' ; s just, I' ; m sure there' ; s a lot of conversations about what is the vision and mission and kind of, where' ; s it gonna go, which can be exciting. Um, but I' ; m sure there' ; s also some pressure to be like, who are we? What is our, what is our mission here on campus? But, um, the current leadership can figure it out. He' ; s [Floyd Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center] good. He' ; s good. SS: Yea, he is good. JR: He is good. SR: Anyways, thank you so much for coming here and-- JR: This was Fun. < ; laughs> ; . I don' ; t know what I expected, But yeah. SS: Anyway, I' ; m gonna end the recording. JR: Okay. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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Title
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Ruiz, Jennie. Interview April 7, 2023
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history interview of Jennie Ruiz for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project on April 7, 2023. Biographical information about Jennie, how she started working for California State University San Marcos, her leadership and networking skills. Jennie’s friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu and its impact on her. Her experience running the Cross-Cultural Center, and her thoughts about its role at CSU San Marcos.
Identifier
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SC027-029
Subject
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California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
Education, Higher
Human rights
Student success
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-04-07
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video
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
Rights Holder
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Jennie Ruiz
Type
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Moving image
Creator
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Jennie Ruiz
Contributor
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Seth Stanley
Coverage
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San Marcos (Calif.)
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
Women's experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c5940d5103570c06601179277b230b8f.pdf
6501572b27876302ad6780f8f8a675fb
PDF Text
Text
JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-07
Seth Stanley [Interviewer]:
This is Seth Stanley. Today I'm interviewing Jenny Ruiz for the California State University San Marcos
Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at
the University Library. Hi Jenny. Thank you for coming.
Jennie Ruiz [Narrator]:
Hi, Seth <laughs>.
SS:
To start out, uh, can you tell me a little bit about your background and how that maybe has influenced
your work in higher education?
JR:
Oh, goodness. Okay. Background. How far do you, how do you, how far do you want me to go?
SS:
As long as you want.
JR:
Oh goodness. Well, I was born, no, um-SS:
Go for it.
JR:
Background. Um, so I'm born and raised in San Diego, um, from Mira Mesa originally, um, went to
college up at Sonoma State. For my undergrad. And did, um, got my degree in sociology. So I did a few
different majors, but then I landed on sociology cause I had a really great Intro to Soc[iology] professor
who I really enjoyed. Um, and through my time at Sonoma State, I got involved in various things. I
mainly had to work on campus just to pay bills and live and all that. So I worked in like different food
service and I worked in retail off campus, and actually told the story last, it was, what was it, Tuesday at
a session I led about my like, professional journey.
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�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
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But I had a, a job on campus where I was having to put up flyers across campus and I hated it. I would
have like hundreds of flyers to post. Um, this is before lot. This is before like electronic signage and all of
that. So I, um, and I was miserable but I saw a flyer for a job in the Career Center on campus and I'm like,
thank goodness no one else has seen this ad at this point ‘cause I'm putting the ads up, so I'm gonna
apply for this job, which I did. And that kind of took me into this path of, um, of higher ed and student
affairs. It kind of opened me up into, like the orientation, you know, kind of world new student
orientation, ‘cause a lot of things were run through that area. Academic advising, I interacted with, um,
the program called Freshman Seminar there, which is similar to our GEL program here [program geared
towards first-year students and student success in academia].
So I served in various leadership roles. I actually got, uh, I was on the dean's list one semester. There,
grades were never my thing, but one semester I got on the dean's list and I got an invitation to apply for
leadership positions on campus. So that in conjunction with my job in the Career Center just kind of
launched me into kind of the higher ed. like, oh, this is kind of fun! So I was an orientation leader. I
worked as a peer mentor in our freshman seminar class. I was a student assistant [at the] Career Center.
And then once I graduated, I was looking into kind of a counseling area. Um, didn't quite know what I
was going to do and my dad, funny enough, got me a book called What to Do with a Sociology Degree,
and I was reading it one day and there was a paragraph on college counseling and I was like, of course I
could do this job for work! I had never even connected [that] the professional staff that I worked with
were doing that as a career. So that kind of, you know, launched me and I applied for grad school. I went
to USD [University of San Diego] for my master's in counseling with a specialization in college student
development. Worked in my orientation, worked in the orientation program there as a grad assistant.
And then after that, got a job at Stony Brook University in New York as a residence hall director. Um, my
friend tipped me off to a job that was here at Cal State San Marcos to be Coordinator of New Student
Programs. So I applied for that job and I thankfully got it. And, um, that started my career here back in
2006, back when, funny enough, C3 [Cross-Cultural Center] was literally, I think the size of this room
when I first started on the fourth floor, third floor of, um, no, the administrative building past, then
[named] Craven Hall. So, and then since then I've just held a variety of positions and here I am. <laugh>.
SS:
[Inaudible] Tell me more about what motivated you to work in a specifically a college setting and
specifically supporting student success.
JR:
Yeah. I think people go into higher ed or any of their professions for one or two reasons: either they had
a really good experience or they had a really awful experience and didn't want that to be repeated for
somebody else. In my case, I had a fantastic college experience. I had great mentors, I had really great
opportunities. Um, so I felt very fortunate. And I just, you know, in my work as a peer mentor in the
freshman seminar class, I was meeting individually with these first time freshmen, really working with
them and, and you know, talking with them about just life and how to connect and find their place on
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campus. And I found myself really enjoying it and kind of becoming-- it was a natural thing to me. Um,
and so I think I wanted to feel that in my career, be able to really take that with me. And, one of the
great things about I think this campus, but just the CSU [California State University] is I think our
students are just so special and just work so hard. Not saying that students don't work hard other places
but that there's something about our students here. Um, there's a lot of gratitude, there's a lot of
understanding, I think, of the privilege they have of being here and getting their degree and, you know,
working with that population is really, really rewarding. So, you know, did I want-- I wanted to be that
for other students moving forward. But I just loved the feel of being on a college campus. There's
nothing like it. I now have a almost seven year-old and just, he's been able to be here since when, since
he was born. And just knowing that-- he actually said the other night, he's like, “You go to college!”
And I'm like, no, I don't go to col-- I'm not a college student, I work at a college. But he just, he
associates college with me. And that's just, he's grown up in that environment. And then my mom also
worked at USD for 30 years. So, I grew up going to campus with her and hanging out with college kids
who, funny enough, seemed significantly older than they do now. So, it was just always a part of, you
know, who I was. And so, I felt fortunate to find a place here.
SS:
And, now you're working as the Interim Director of Student Success Coaching, right? Can you walk us
through your experiences as that at the job?
JR:
In the five weeks I've been in the position, <laugh>, um, it's… it's been, it's been really great. It's actually
brought me back to I'd say my roots here because I started here at CSUSM overseeing orientation and
really working with new students and first year students and all that. So, it's been fun in the short time
I've been here to work with the team to really be creative about how we're gonna be engaging students
who are coming in this next year. We're kind of in this two… two paths right now. It's the finish this
semester, but then let's think big and creatively for the incoming class who're gonna be here in fall
[20]23. So just really, learning from the team and thinking about how impactful the work that they're
doing can really be for the retention success of the first-time freshman coming in.
So, I don't know how much you know about the program but it serves first-year students who are not in
an otherwise specialized program. So who are not in the Educational Opportunity Program who are not
in TRIO [Student Support Services], who are not in CAMP [College Assistance Migration Program], um,
ACE Scholars who are former foster youth, and then athletes or international students. So, we kind of
capture the rest of the students, so don't really have a home, you know, and we wanna be that contact
for them to kind of have that, that person they can go to for any questions that they have just about
college. Um, so it's going well. I'm really enjoying it. I'm able to be creative and think through things and
plan, which is something I love to do.
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SS:
So, I know you've only worked there for, you've only been working in this position for five weeks, but,
um, could you tell me, tell me about, your leadership style and how you adapted to different situations
and team members?
JR:
Yeah, I mean, I think I can relate it to, ‘cause I was in my old position as associate dean for almost seven
years. So I've been in management leadership roles for over ten, twelve years now. But yeah it's been
interesting because I joined a brand new team and so I really had the chance to kind of see how I was
gonna adapt myself to them and how they were gonna receive me. And you know, it's funny, my first
day I brought donuts and I said to them, ‘cause this team right now doesn't have a permanent space.
They're literally working in a temporary space right now. So my first thing was how do I provide them
with a level of, you know, kind of stability and structure. So even in an absence of a physical, permanent
location, they can kind of feel that stability.
SS:
Mm-hmm.
JR:
But I came in that first day and I was like, so I haven't started a new job in a very long time. So I said, I
just ask for your grace. But I'm as much as, as reasonable and appropriate, obviously it's just about the
human first. These are all human beings who are working in a job and if you don't connect that piece
and know what really matters to these people just in life, you're kind of missing the mark. So my goal
was, and I told people ‘cause they wanted to meet with me, people outside my team wanted to meet
with me very quickly to like talk about coaching and how I could collaborate. And I said, I want the first
month to be me focusing on the team, getting to know the team, building those relationships.
And so meeting with them individually and getting to know their strengths and kind of where there's
opportunities. But I, I'd say I'm very, I'm all about personal connections and relationships and being
collaborative. But I'm also good about being, like, sometimes we just kind of have to do things and we
can't bring everyone into the fold, but I want to be as transparent as possible, communicate, provide,
make sure people are in the loop. ‘Cause the less transparency there is, people then start to kind of
worry and, you know create a narrative themselves. And so, but also humor. I like to approach things
with humor. But Yeah.
SS:
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�JENNIE RUIZ
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
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Well, sounds like you're the right person for the job. <laughter> Um, I'd like to ask, how have you
leveraged your networks and relationships to support student development and success?
JR:
Oh gosh.
SS:
<laughs>
JR:
You know, it's… so this talk I just gave on Tuesday, the Division of Student Affairs does, um, they just
started this series called Conversations with Leaders. And they finally, they asked, they asked me to
speak and I'm like, okay, because part of me is like, “You want me to talk? Oh, that's fine!” So I talked a
lot about this, but one of the benefits of my job, the job I had here when I first started with orientation:
it's such just by the nature of the job, so highly collaborative that, that set me up for how I have literally
done everything else in every other position I have here on campus. So, it had me working with event
planning, with catering, with parking facilities, with advising, with, you know, leadership to student life.
Like I work with every area on campus. And so through that, and I'm asking people to do things when I
don't have any leadership or jurisdiction over them. And so you very quickly had to establish this
relationship with people so you can-- ’cause all I would do in that job is ask people for favors. It's just, “I
need you to do this. Can you help with this?” And so, and I fast forward now, there's one of the
colleagues I've worked with, I met him my second day working, he works in advising and now I'm
meeting with him about coaching and how to collaborate. And it's just, we laugh now that I'm like, talk
about full circle and even doing training on some technology that we're gonna be implementing into the
program. The person in IT [Information Technology], I worked with him when PeopleSoft was first
coming on board. And so again, it's like “It's so fun to work with you again!”
But, all that to say, it's been so key. And I think what has been very validating is when I've come into this
job, the, the reactions I've gotten from people saying, “I'm so glad it's you and I can't wait to work with
you in this role.” And that's been really affirming and I feel like because of my relationships, I've been
able to, you know, there's credibility. I'm able to connect the coaches with people that they haven't
connected with before. And, you know, if they have a question, I'm like, ”Let me just ask this person
directly, like what the answer is.” They're like, “You can just do that?” I'm like, “Yeah, I just can chat
whoever, or text whoever and vice versa.” So what I shared on Tuesday at the session was relationships
is literally how I've gotten everything done here on this campus. It's, it's been so, so important. So I don't
think I answered the question?
SS:
No, I love that. I love that. I'm so glad to see you [indistinguishable].
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JR:
It's been, it's very sweet. I'm like, “Thank you!” It is very, because especially it's people that I've worked
with forever and you know, and you just want people who are collaborative and willing to hear you out
and you can laugh with. And I actually said to somebody the other day on the call, I said, “You don’t have
to be diplomatic with me. Just tell me there’s clearly something there. So just like, tell me how you’re
feeling so we can just deal with it.” And I think they appreciated it because with some people you have
to be very diplomatic and be very discreet in how you're saying things. And I'm like, just, “I've been here
long enough. Like, just tell me.”
SS:
[Indistinguishable] So I'd like to ask, how do you approach building rapport with students and
understanding their unique, needs?
JR:
Yeah. Um, so I've had the benefit, I mean, since I've started here to work directly with students. So in my
orientation job, I supervised volunteers who are on orientation team. I supervise students who were
paid staff. Like those were my direct reports. So I was directly supporting and working with students. I
think very similar with how I just work with anyone. I… it's so hard to describe something that I feel like
just kind of happens, but I try to feel people out. You know, again, I approach a lot of things with humor,
but obviously if this setting is not appropriate right, it's, you know, I'm able to kind of feel that out. I feel
like I'm very intuitive. Like, I joke that my superpower is intuition because I can… I can tell-- if I know
someone, I can tell like when they walk in a room and be like, there's something going on or what's
happening, and I'll just kind of give a look and be like, you let me know what you need. Like, but I just, I
stop and I make efforts. I get to know people and with students, that makes, that makes a difference.
You know just being visible and being authentic. Providing, you know, sharing with-- with discretion of
course, but like my own personal life and connections and here and there. Um, but you know, in my old- in my previous position, I was working with students in some really difficult circumstances ‘cause I was
overseeing student conduct. I was overseeing students who were really in a difficult situation within
their life. Whether it's, they've had very something very difficult happen to them and they're navigating
it and how they're acting may not be the most appropriate in that setting. And just, um, I'm really good
about student[s] coming in and being like, “What is going on? Like, what's, what's happening?” And also
good about being like, what we're doing here isn't working. So how do we, let’s figure it out. So through
the years I’ve gotten very good at being direct, but in a supportive manner? Um, some, well, supervisor
joked with me, she's like, “I've never met somebody who could suspend a student, and in the same
sentence, the student, thanks you.” <laugh> It's just, it's treating somebody as a human being. ’Cause,
even if you're making a decision that's difficult, you can still do it with compassion. And humor too. I
love to be sarcastic with students, like, especially O team [Orientation Team]. ‘Cause I still have a
connection with the students who are on orientation team. ‘Cause my previous position, I was still in the
same office and I would, they'd be laying down on orientation day and I'd just be like, “What are you
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doing?” They’re like, “Oh, sorry Jennie!” And I'm like, “Come on,” <laugh> “Get your, get yourself
together. Don't be laying down on the job.” So.
SS:
All right. Um, finally we're gonna get into the Cross-Cultural Center Questions.
JR:
I know this is like, this is getting us-- getting me warm. Okay.
SS:
I Really love that. Yeah. I love, like, you're just a person people can trust, a conduit of stability.
JR:
Conduit of stability. Oh, that's deep. Okay.
SS:
Could you, anyway, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began
engaging with it?
JR:
Mm-hmm. What I remember about C3 is what we call it. Um, so when I first started, we had, and I
imagine you're interviewing Alexis Monte Virgin,
SS:
Um, I'm not sure, she's not one I'm interviewing.
JR:
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Yeah, he was the coordinator when I first started. Um, he's like a president of a university now. It's
amazing. So he was, he was the coordinator. The, the interaction I had with C3 when I started… because
I oversaw orientation, the Student Life and Leadership Office at the time was this compacted space in,
um, past known as Craven Hall. And so when I had on orientation days, we needed a place for
Orientation Team to debrief the day. So we'd go up to C3. So that's how, that's what I remember it as.
We'd go up to, we'd go to C, we'd be sitting on the floor. They had these big red couches, the red
couches, the red chairs, and, it was small, but it was like, it was cozy. But yeah, we would just be having
people sit on every surface possible and have our debriefing sessions there. And that's kind of my initial
like, connection and, memory of how I first interacted.
SS:
This is a really big follow up, but, how did it shift over time? And did you have any role in this change?
JR:
Um, how it shifted? So, pretty quickly after I started, probably within the first year… and I think the plans
had already been happening, was we were gonna be moving spaces. We were gonna be moving, offices
to the first floor, no, to the third floor [of the Administration Building]. So I don't know if you're familiar
or not- where Ace Scholars is now, where the Tukwut courtyard is? That's where Student Life and
Leadership used to be. So we were already, when I first started, kind of in this future planning, dream
big mode of what can Student Life and Leadership look like. But at that time, C3 was under the purview
of Student Life and Leadership. So figuring out where and how that space - because it was very
important to have a designated space - not have it be interweaved into our office, but have a
community building location for the Center.
So, I am sure that I was part of conversations because we were doing like kind of physical planning of
the office, figuring out where everything was gonna kind of be. Um, because I was overseeing
orientation, the space back then it was, I had this massive cubicle… Um and then around the corner
through a door was where C3 was. So it was an office physically located like right off of the general
Student Life and Leadership office. So, kind of talking through and brainstorming how we were gonna fit
these red couches into that space. The space was kinda like a triangle. So doing the physical kind of
puzzle pieces, you know, figuring out, um, you know, what to put on the walls and to create that space
was definitely part of that conversation. So, but yeah I don't remember the nuances, but I would
imagine because it was physically located there, we were all part of that “What does this look like?”
conversation. So, um, how it's evolved since then? I mean, it was in that space. And then, if I remember
correctly, I don't know what happened first, but a leadership program was created within Student Life
and Leadership. It's called SLL [Student Life and Leadership]. And, the idea was to create a Tukwut
leadership. Um, is it Tukwut Leadership Center? Yeah. I think I'm remembering this correctly. So what
ended up happening, I think a space opened up in the Commons Building directly across from Commons
206, I think is the room. And so the Cross-Cultural Center moved up there and then the [TLC], that
[Tukwut] Leadership [Center] space, um, kind of a space for leadership programs and student
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organization meetings, stuff like that, moved into that triangle space on the third floor. So the space
when it was up there was… I mean, it was massive.
It was, I mean, comparatively speaking, I mean there was, there were windows, um, there was like a
welcome desk. There were the couches again, I believe. We had at one point, I don't know what the
timeframe was, but we had painted this like collective mural where everybody had like, it was a,
program that they had brought to campus with a muralist. And they pretty much gave us different
pieces to draw and paint. And that was put together, I think it's still up in the C3 here in the Student
Union, I wanna say. But that was up in the space and it was just bigger and more open. And I wanna say
it was up there until the Student Union opened, which I wasn't in as much conversation about because
at that time I had transitioned more into the Data Students Office-ish role.
So I wasn't gonna be under the same umbrella. But I remember the conversations about the physical
space in the Student Union and, the offices and having a balcony and having programming space and all
of that. And so you see this space now. I mean it's just, it's just beautiful. And it's with the balcony. And
we've held some retreats in there and separate kind of staff meeting stuff. And Floyd's [Lai, Director of
the CCC] great. He's always willing to host people. Um, so it's done a lot of trainings in there and stuff
like that. So, that's kind of how the physical space has evolved. It's gone a long way from this sized
office.
SS:
Thank you for that.
JR:
Yeah.
SS:
So many permutations. I love the red couches.
JR:
The red couches. I mean, that's the thing. And you probably will hear a consistent thing is this thread,
the red couches is what C3 was. Like, that is what was, you know, the signature furniture there.
SS:
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Yeah. [Indistinguishable]
JR:
Oh, I'm sure you did.
SS:
Anyways, um, I knew that you were temporary temporal, sorry. Temporarily responsible for the CrossCultural Center during a transition between associate directors. Let me ask you, what led you to that
position?
JR:
<laughs>
SS:
How’d that Happen?
JR:
I don't know. You know, I think, when you're in a-- when you're leading a department right? And
somebody leaves, you're kind of like, okay, who could kind of pick things up and keep them moving
while we're doing a search, right? I think the reason I was kind of a natural person to jump into that
position and I felt very grateful to do it, was because with my work with New Student Programs and
Orientation, I had collaborated with, with Sara Sheik, who remains one of my dearest friends, we had
collaborated on the creation of a peer mentoring program. So it was a orientation, New Student
Programs and Cross-Cultural Center, um, Multicultural Programs, collaborative program. Where we
focused on pairing up first-year students from underserved, underrepresented populations. So really it
was, I forget the criteria but, primarily students of color, first gen[eration] students who weren't part of
other specialized programs, which now I think about it, I'm like, that's funny. That's the population I'm
working with again. So, because we had worked so closely on that and had, we're really working with
the staff on creating that program, and we interviewed and hired the mentors and we onboarded the
mentees and all of that stuff. I think when Sara ended up leaving, I was a natural kind of… ‘Cause I had
already been working with the, with the directors and coordinators of the other, of the other centers. I
had already been working with the staff in C3 on this program. So, it was kind of a natural, you know,
“Can you just help with this for a little bit?” And so that way we, you know, can have some consistency?
Um, so it was a fun-
SS:
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Yeah, I tried to find how long you were in that position. I couldn't find it. How Long?
JR:
It was about a semest- I'd say it was about a semester, if not an entire semester. It was a couple of
months in the spring semester of… oh gosh, I don't know what year it was. [20]10, [20]11, [20]12,
around that time. Yeah, because it was before- ‘cause I moved into the Interim Assistant Dean of
Students position in January, 2013. So I would say it was probably nine [2009] or [20]10 possibly, but it
was only a couple months while we worked on, hiring and getting Floyd. So.
SS:
Perfect. I don’t wanna get too sidetracked but, I'd like, if you’re willing, I'd like you to tell me about your
friendship with Sara [Sheikh]. How is she?
JR:
God. Is this what she started crying about when she was asking about relationships?
SS:
I’m not sure. <laughs>
JR:
Oh gosh, Sara, what a special human. Um, she texted me earlier. She's like, how was your interview? I'm
like, it's at three. So I'll tell her that you all asked about her. Um, I remember interviewing her because
when we would bring candidates on for our department, you know, we'd all have a chance to meet all
the candidates and whatnot. She first off, she was not, how do? This is the diplomatic part of me. She
was not allowed to reach her fullest potential here. Her skills and her talents were not as tapped as they
possibly could have been here. She left before she should have. Um, but opportunities arose and she
had to take it. But she is, we are so incredibly different, but she is a quiet, calm, intentional, just
peaceful human being.
Everything she does is with intention and purpose. And she's one of those people in my life, and I tell
her all the time, and it's now her and her wife because they're, they're like cup filling people like you,
you hang out with them, you spend time with them. And I'm like, okay, my soul, has been refilled. Um,
not to get into politics, but this is, this is related the day of the, the day after the 2016 election, there
were various emotions. And she happened to be on campus that day. She, Sara was here, this was years
after she'd gone, but she happened to be bringing a group of students here to campus. And I told her, I
said, you are the perfect and only person I would've wanted to interact with on this day. Because she's
so good at just like being in a space with and just allowing space and asking intentional questions. But…
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and then her laugh is just so unique. Like when you get her laughing, it's just like, there's no laugh like it.
Um, but she just, the students so highly respected her, and everything that she touched here, again she
did with intention and purpose. And she makes everyone feel like literally you're the only person in the
room. She has nothing else to distract her. It's a very intentional, like, you're hearing it a, a pattern like
purposeful and intentional. She's just a good, good person. So, I remember, ‘cause I tend to talk a lot
and, um, and this isn't fair ‘cause you're asking me to talk, so there's no, there's no judgment here. But I
remember we were at a, we were doing a staff retreat and I had to get used to that. she would process.
So, you know, somebody would ask a question and a prompt, and we had to give space for Sara because
Sara needed time to kind of put all of the thoughts together and process and whatnot. And so, I've
always taken that with me. But, we've, you know, she was at my wedding. I was at her wedding. She met
my son when he was, you know just after he was born. I've had the privilege to, I was there the day that,
they officially adopted their son. I was taking pictures and just, just one of those people, you know? Just
one of those people in your life that I'm grateful for our relationship here. And just the connection and
it, I, it’s one of those things where I’m like, thank you for allowing me to stay in your life. Because
there’s days where I’m like, what do I bring to you? <laughs> Because she's just so fantastic. But she
would just kind of, she would brush that off and be like you’re nuts. So she's special.
SS:
I love that. That's incredibly great [indistinguishable]. That's amazing. I know we're in the little sidetrack
here, but-
JR:
No, it's fine. it's all connected.
SS:
It’s all oral history, its all about people, so.
JR:
It Is.
SS:
Back to the Cross-Cultural Center. Could you tell me about a favorite memory? Or not even a favorite,
just a memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center?
JR:
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Hmm. <laugh>.
SS:
This is a little stumped [one].
JR:
No, it's not stumped. I just, there's certain things that it's like, I just immediately remember and I'm like,
it doesn't have to be super deep, right?
SS:
Mm-hmm.
JR:
I remember there was a period of time, I don't know, I think it was before Sara left, but, um, there were
ti-- I don't know if she was out, but, we needed to have physical presence in the Center. And so each of
the SLL staff would sign up for shifts to sit at the front desk of the center. And, I remember, I love
NSYNC. It's a boy band. Yeah. And I remember I was listening to Pandora at the time, it was Pandora.
And I told them, I was up there, I had like a morning shift and I said, “If I am here at my shift, you are
hearing NSYNC and boy bands.” And it just became a thing. They’re like, “Oh, Jennie's here.” And I would
just play that music. And, it was, that's the first thing that kind of came to mind. It was just kind of funny.
They were like, “Oh God, Jenny's on shift.” But it was cool because it got us physically out of our own
offices and I looked forward to that, you know, physical, that physical location change. But then to
interact with students in different ways. Um, God, there's a lot of memories. I met a student, and I won't
say his name for obvious reasons you'll learn shortly, but I first met him in C3 and I remember him
‘cause he would walk in and he was always in military gear, but like not like he, he was like within the
military, he was always just wearing like military-grade-SS:
Camo?
JR: Yeah. He had like a, this military-grade backpack, like, the combat boots and just, and he was just the
sweetest, kindest person. And I, that's he, that was the first time I met him was in the C3. And he would
come in there all the time and that's where he would hang out and we would talk about life. And he
quickly disclosed to me that he had dealt with some significant mental health challenges. And just, my
brother has also dealt with some stuff and so he and I were connecting on that and just talking about life
and making those connections. And I remembered he had gone away for a bit and then he had returned
and he was, he was having some challenges as only a couple years ago. Unfortunately he passed away
last year. But I always remember just that connection I had with him.
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And I realized, you know, a lot of other people on campus had that connection with him. He was just, he
was just this unique soul. He was like an old soul. He dealt with so much adversity with mental and
physical health, but he just always came with just a presence of kindness and just sh- like sheer
gratitude. And when I… when I changed, when I moved outta my office a couple weeks ago, ‘cause I was
in that office for nine years. One of the things I was, I was cleaning this stuff out and I found a thank you
card from him. And I was like, wow, what a gift. And he had, it was after I was out of the role within
relation to [C3], but it's a couple years ago when I helped him with some stuff and it just said, “Thank
you for helping me in one of the difficult times in my life.” and I was just like, God, what a gift you just
gave me. So, um, I don't know if I would've had the chance to meet him had I not been in that, you
know, in that physical space because I know that was a space of safety for him, which was I know the
case for a lot of students, so.
SS:
Wow.
JR:
[Mm-hmm] <laugh>.
SS:
Sorry about that.
JR:
I know it’s tough and yeah. Yeah.
SS:
[indistinguishable] It's remembering NSYNC Radio, at least. <laugh>
JR:
NSYNC Radio. But I think even with him, I still smile, you know, and um, yeah, ‘cause again, he just
exuded gratitude and it, um, yeah. So mm-hmm.
SS:
Well on a lighter note! Uh.
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JR:
<laugh>, I know, sorry take these down.
SS:
No, no, no. It's perfect. It's perfect. I know you only worked there for a semester, but how might have
your work at the Cross-Cultural Center helped you develop as a professional?
JR:
Massively. I mean, you know, as a, as a White woman, straight CIS woman, I bring privilege with me and
I always am trying to learn and understand that what my physical presence may bring depending on the
space and I'm at right? And, the majority of the students who, who hung out in that space were, were
students of color, primarily students who were of Asian Pacific Islander descent. But, it was something
for me to be able to-- when I first got asked to kind of fill in the role, part of me was like I didn't want my
own identity to be a detriment to their development. But I realize now me even just knowing that I think
<laughs> makes a difference. That I'm aware of how my identity impacts those around me.
But there were some experiences that came up that I remember we were doing, we were doing some
activities… Oh we were doing a, an event and it was around, um, Judaism, and I don't remember what
the content of the workshop was, but Hillel, which is still an active organization for serving and
supporting Jewish students, but obviously non-Jewish students can be involved. There was some
concern about us offering this workshop and possibly providing false information. And it was one of
those things that in the moment you can get very defensive, right? You can be like, no, you know, we're
not, we're not trying to do anything to whatever. But what it had me do was, you need to stop for a
second and be-- again, the intentionality. It really taught me just you to think of anyone who could be
potentially impacted, but also leveraging the voices that you have and collaborate and pull them in.
Um, ‘cause why wouldn't have we have collaborated with folks on campus who live that on, on a daily
basis and could provide some additional you know, but I was advising students at this time and the
student was just doing what he was told. He was creating these workshops kind of in a vacuum. But it
was a really good lesson to, again, do things as intentionally as possible. Even if it means you have to
move the workshop a few weeks later, if it means we're doing it the right way, let's do that. So that was
a really good lesson and I think it ended up being fine. We ended up collaborating with them. Um, and
then just…Trying to think. I mean, just working with all different types of people and interacting with
students I probably normally wouldn't have just because they weren't involved in Orientation Team. Like
this, this particular pocket of students who worked as student assistants, within all the other centers
because there was kind of like this collective team they had of- at the time the Women's Center, the
Pride Center, and the Cross-Cultural Center, those three centers; our staffs would get together on a
frequent basis. And there’s folks from other staffs that I have connected with that I'm still in, contact
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with that I probably would never have interacted with. And to be honest, they probably would never
have even-- based on who I am and how I present and probably would never have even interacted with
me. And so, it was a great opportunity to kind of make those connections. But, um, I learned some more
things just about program planning. We, we planned some pretty big events and just again, how to
honor history and culture and doing it in a meaningful manner while advising students who just wanna
get things done. And it's like, how do you balance that? So that was, um, that was a good experience.
SS:
Yeah. That's great. Um, making connections. using your voices. Moving on, could you describe, and this
doesn't have to be with the Cross-Cultural Center ‘cause I know you worked a pretty short time over
there. Could you describe a project or initiative you with that you are particularly proud of, or were a
part of necessarily?
JR:
Hmm. Geez, just so many-SS:
<laughs>
JR:
I think I can discuss the peer mentoring program. Although it was short-lived, I think for what it was. It’s
one of those programs that no matter how good of a program you have, if you don't have the resources
to continue it, you can only do so much. And so… but it was, it was really cool because it was kind of a
brainchild of Sara and then she came to me and said, “You work with new students, can we just do this
connection?” And so we really got a chance to dig into the benefits of peer mentoring and we kind of,
we created it really from the ground up. We recruited current students to be peer mentors, created that
training for them. And because of my work with O-Team [Orientation Team], who is solely volunteers,
you know, I had a training with them, a weekly training with them on, in the spring semester, and then
we had retreats. And so I was able to really bring that component. Um, and then what Sara brought was
really the, the pieces of how-- why we're serving this particular population because there is an equity
gap that our white students are persisting at a higher rate and graduating at a higher rate than our
students of color. So, and then there was research that showed that peer mentoring specifically helps to
close-- is one of the most beneficial components that a student could have to have a peer to peer
connection. So it was really fun to work with her on that and really create the curriculum, create the, the
criteria for the mentors. And then I remember we had spreadsheets and we were divvying up the, the
caseloads of like who, or not the caseloads-- of like who would be matched with certain mentors and
stuff like that.
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Um, and so that was really fun. And then once Sara left and Floyd came on, um, I don't think it was a
while, but he and I had the idea to do like an overnight retreat with this program. So what we did was
we had them all come together. So we've had the mentors and the mentees, this is before school even
started, had them on a bus. We drove up to Julian [California] and we did kind of team-building
activities. And it was really-- I remember we had this, we wanted to do a ropes course and we had,
there's a ropes course at this camp. And I remember Floyd and I were brought in probably three days
before the retreat. And our boss at the time said, we can't spend the money on this. And we're like,
“What are we supposed to do?” So then he and I just like hunkered down and created like our own like,
internal team-building exercises, but we're like, “What the hell are we gonna do?” But we figured it out.
What's funny now is I think it was that year, one of the mentees is now on my coaching staff.
SS:
<laughs>.
JR:
So I've known him forever and it's really cool. And then funny enough we, well it's not funny but, we had
to buy a new car this past weekend, track me here-- and I, we go to San Diego County Credit Union
because that, we had literally just paid our car off on Thursday and that's when our car died. So we went
back to San Diego County Credit Union. Said we wanted to get a loan with you again. And as we’re
meeting with this loan officer, she’s like, where do you work? I told her, she’s like, “I knew you look
familiar!” And my husband's always like, “I swear to God, she knows people everywhere.” And she said,
“I was part of the peer mentoring program” and I remembered her ‘cause she was assigned to, I would
say was our best mentor ‘cause some of our mentors left a lot to be des-- like, “Can you talk? Can you
touch base with your students?” But this one -- and her last name was Ruiz as well -- and so we
connected on that, but it was so cool to see this student who had been in the peer mentoring program
and just being like, “I remember you!” And it was a nice little reunion. Um, but I thought it was a really
cool framework to create. Um, unfortunately the resources just weren't able to keep it going. So.
SS:
Yeah. That's cool that you saw your, your one mentor—[indistinguishable]
JR:
It was so funny that, “I know you look familiar!” When I said I worked at campus, it was funny.
SS:
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Yea I Know plenty of people working in the university space currently working with limited resources.
Yeah, it's definitely challenging.
JR:
It is. Especially when it's such meaningful work like that. I mean, it's literally to support, but now I'm in a
space again to be able to do that same kind of work, which is exciting.
SS:
Mm-hmm. What is the significance of having a space that champions underrepresented students?
JR:
Um, I mean so much. And with underrepresented students, obviously that's such a large umbrella, right?
And then every group and, and community that makes up that term needs different things and there's
an intersectionality and all that and it can-- but you know what it really comes down to, it's about
equity, right? And it's interesting having conversations with people who don't quite get it and there's
people who make comments sometimes it's like, “What about a space for us?” And I'm like, do you
understand that any-- I can go somewhere and see someone who looks like me and understands my
experience. I mean, generally speaking, pretty easily, if you have a student who comes to this campus
and does not see anyone who looks like them during the day, does not have a faculty member teaching
them who is from the same culture or community, to be able to have a space that a student knows they
can go to. To have an experience that just physical and mental and emotional safety on a daily basis, for
them to do homework and define that community will only help them to be better in all aspects of their
life. That's why programs like EOP [Educational Opportunity Program] and ACE Scholars and those
programs exist because they're-- every student should have access to the same level of services, right?
First and foremost. But, if you look at certain populations and certain areas where students are from,
they then need that much more support to get them to the same place that more majority populations
are. So I think providing spaces like this is one step in providing that, that equity. Um, because I can
imagine a student coming here and I've never really experienced it, but being like, “I don't see myself
here.” They're not gonna feel an emotional connection to the campus. They’re not gonna feel like going
to class because why would they care? I mean, there's some students who inherently they just have this
intrinsic motivation and they'll go to school and it's fine.
But you wanna have that, that community and sense of belonging. That'll just make it that much more
just robust of an experience for them. And the community pieces is massive. So spaces like this, if done
well, and intentionally and has good leadership and the resources it needs. Because the thing is these
centers-- and people joke a lot of times are placed in the basements of buildings, they're placed in
inaccessible areas that people don't necessarily know about. If you do it well and put 'em in high traffic
areas like the USU [University Student Union], have staffing and resources to really support those
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students, then it goes well. But just historically spaces like that are just under-resourced and which is an
issue. So.
SS:
Yeah. Um, I guess in that same sort of area of, doing it right. Are there any aspects of your time at the
Cross-Cultural Center that you would've approached differently if given the chance?
JR:
Mm. I, when I came in, because again, there was this like conglomerate of the three spaces. I would, and
it was a really short period of time, but I got kind of sucked into their drama <laughs>, and I wish I
would've come in and I don't know if I had fully found my voice yet like if I, knowing what I know now
about things and haven't gone through when I've gone through now, I feel like I would be able to go in
and be able to really help the students to be very… To, you know to collaborate, but not necessarily be
dependent on, I think, I wanted to collaborate with these other folks but I think there was almost a
sense of like I had to defer to what they wanted kind of thing. And so probably it would be fun to go
back in there now knowing what I know now and see how things would be different. But, I don't know. I
think that the state of where I was at the time, you learn based on where you're at in life. And I got
lessons, from it. I, um, there were-- I worked with my first student who I was aware of being
undocumented at the time and just learning about that process and learning about that impact for her
and just, I mean we literally, no one knew but she would, she would submit kind of a fake time sheet
every month just to have this sense of normalcy and that nobody would question. And just, that was
kind of my first, kind of opportunity to, to work with students experiencing those challenges. So. I can't
think of anything glaring. I was still I think pretty early and young in my profession. Um, so, there's still
days where I’m like, “You wanted me to be in there?” But, it worked out. But I think those are the things
I can, I can think of.
SS:
That’s good.
JR:
Yeah.
SS:
More experience.
JR:
More experience. It’s all, it’s all experience. Yes.
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SS:
Well, as we're wrapping-- winding down, I know you mentioned before that a lot of people that would
go to the Cross-Cultural Center were um--
JR:
Asian Pacific Islander.
SS:
Oh yeah. Asian Pacific Islanders.
JR:
<laughs> Yes.
SS:
I, a lot of questions are raised around like these cultural centers, like the Black Student Center and, the
Latinx Center and stuff like that. And should there be an Asian student center? Should there be a white
student center? What's your response to that?
JR:
<laughs> That's my response. <laughs> Um, I mean, I think I mentioned it before about the purpose of
these spaces. Everyone, every student should have access to support and resources on our campus. I do
not think inherently based on the setup of society, students at particular demographics are lacking
spaces where they see others like them.
SS:
Mm-hmm.
JR:
Like I said, things need to be, do, done well. You need to have the staffing. I think it's always going to be
met with some dissonance because there's gonna always be people who just don't get it. But the people
who are the ones traditionally, and I know there's people who may identify as the same within that
center and say, I don't think we should have, you know, separation or whatnot. But it depends where
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people are at on their identity development. And when you kind of go through identity development,
you get to the point where you're comfortable enough in your space and your skin and your whatever to
understand that everyone else is in a different space and that's okay. And that some students may be
okay with it and some students may really need that space to be successful. And again, if having a Black
Student Center allows one black man who goes to school here to have a physical space that he can go to
feel safe, then I think that's been successful because otherwise where would he find that here? Right. I
think the people who ask those questions about, why don't we have this? Why don't we have this? And
it's like, I don't-- there's gonna always be people who ask those questions and they don't have an answer
for it. They don't have anything to kind of back up, you know, you ask the question of, “Why do you
think we need that space?” And they don't have any, you know, there's no research to back up the
answers that they're hoping to get. It's just, they're there-- The questions are just being asked, I think to
kind of stir things up. But again, the caveat is: you don't wanna just do it to do it to check off boxes. You
need to do it as intentionally as possible. And I'm far from being an expert on how to implement that.
But if you don't have the resources and don't have the institutional support, you're only gonna be,
you're set up to fail.
SS:
Mm-hmm. Perfect. Great. Um, yeah, I like that answer. If it helps. It's worth it.
JR:
Yep. Mm-hmm.
SS:
To conclude connecting to that question, uh, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it
coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces?
JR:
I would imagine, I'll say Floyd specifically ‘cause he has been the longest-tenured, um, director in there
now. [Floyd] is probably been asked how he's gonna be-- What is the Cross-Cultural Center? How does
the Cross-Cultural Center kind of stand apart from the other identity centers? I think with the CrossCultural Center, although other centers talk about intersectionality and you know, and that sort of thing,
I think what the Cross-Cultural Center can really focus on is really that multiculturalism, how all the
different identities intersect and kind of can help to facilitate those conversations and understandings
and that sort of thing. I would imagine there's been conversations about-- do we have a space for, you
know, our APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American] students? Because that tends to be the space
that, that population tends to spend time.
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I think, there were conversations way back in the day where, ‘cause they're Kamalayan Alliance, I don't
know if it's a really big organization now, but Kamalayan Alliance was a massive student organization
back in the day, and that was primarily the students who made up the space in the center and some
people had issues with it. It's kind of like but this is not supposed to be just for Filipino students, but it's
like, who defines that? You know? It depends on who has a connection here and who feels connected.
So, I would imagine-- I know there's some campuses who have, I mean, tons of different affinity spaces
and identity centers. And I'm sure there's gonna be conversation about what, what is C3’s role in that?
Um, I don't know the answer I'm not privy to those conversations, but I'm sure the questions have come
up of what is the space for this type of physical and identity space in the midst of adding all these
different, identity spaces? Other campuses do it. It's just, I'm sure there's a lot of conversations about
what is the vision and mission and kind of, where's it gonna go, which can be exciting. Um, but I'm sure
there's also some pressure to be like, who are we? What is our, what is our mission here on campus?
But, um, the current leadership can figure it out. He's [Floyd Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center]
good. He's good.
SS:
Yeah, he is good.
JR:
He is good.
SR:
Anyways, thank you so much for coming here and—
JR:
This was Fun. <laughs>. I don’t know what I expected, But yeah.
SS:
Anyway, I’m gonna end the recording.
JR:
Okay.
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�
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Ruiz, Jennie. Interview transcript April 7, 2023
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history interview of Jennie Ruiz for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project on April 7, 2023. Biographical information about Jennie, how she started working for California State University San Marcos, her leadership and networking skills. Jennie’s friendship with Sara Sheikh-Arvizu and its impact on her. Her experience running the Cross-Cultural Center, and her thoughts about its role at CSU San Marcos.
This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos.
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Jennie Ruiz
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Seth Stanley
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2023-04-07
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California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
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San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Jennie Ruiz
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text
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RuizJennie_StanleySeth_2023-04-07_transcript
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Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Oral History
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Suzy Karasik
Interviewee
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Roberta Estrada
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5.4 Estrada, Roberta. Interview November 3, 2022 SC027-31 0:58:38 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Basket making Education, ESL Endemic plants -- Southern California Luiseño Indians Refugees -- Vietnam San Marcos (Calif.) Roberta Estrada Suzy Karasik mp4 EstradaRoberta_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-03_access.mp4 1:|17(8)|25(7)|32(10)|45(2)|57(5)|65(7)|74(11)|89(9)|116(12)|124(8)|137(2)|147(6)|162(3)|171(11)|182(10)|193(7)|206(7)|222(4)|240(10)|257(6)|277(6)|299(4)|309(11)|319(10)|329(10)|340(6)|386(7)|398(9)|420(10)|430(2)|449(4)|463(8)|473(8)|492(1)|506(10)|515(10)|526(15)|548(5)|574(10)|618(12)|634(2)|655(12)|666(2)|674(3)|708(4)|721(4)|734(10)|772(3)|803(4)|817(11)|842(6)|865(12)|890(13)|908(11)|916(11)|928(3)|944(14)|988(11) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/740a3fad6534f024735fd2e1671bc774.mp4 Other video English 0 Childhood and school years/ Indigenous identity Roberta Estrada discusses her childhood through college years. She was born into a tight-knit family, and explains that her mother was French and Native American from the San Luis Rey Mission Band tribe. She grew up in Vista, CA, but went to school in San Marcos, CA. She attended Alvin Dunn School, which is now renamed La Mirada Academy. Estrada explains that at the time, San Marcos did not have a high school district, so she attended Vista’s high school until San Marcos became a city in 1963 in her junior year. She also discusses that while in school, there were many more Hispanic children than there were Indigenous children and does not remember associating with Indigenous classmates at that time. She explains that she became more aware of her Luiseño identity later in life when her mother became involved in Indigenous groups. Estrada then recalls attending college and majoring in Spanish with a general education degree for elementary studies. She also describes her husband’s Pala background, particularly how his family acquired the surname “Estrada.” Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; College ; Hispanic community ; Hispanic people ; Identity ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Pala Band Of Mission Indians ; San Luis Rey Mission ; San Luis Rey Mission Band ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Spanish language ; Vista (Calif.) 618 Career in education Roberta Estrada discusses the sexism observed in her Indigenous community and in the school systems she taught in. She describes attending college and completing her student teaching in Wisconsin before returning back to Southern California. She explains that she attended Palomar College to complete more training before enrolling at California State University Bernadino and earning a Life Credential for teaching. She taught K-12 in the San Marcos Unified District as a bilingual teacher for thirty-two years. Estrada also discusses other aspects of her career as an educator, such as how members from the San Marcos community became involved in students’ learning and how she incorporated life skills into her curriculum. Finally, Estrada recalls teaching students who immigrated to the U.S. during the Vietnam War. California State University Bernadino ; Education ; Educators ; English language ; ESL ; Gender ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous people ; Palomar College ; San Bernardino (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Schools ; Sexism ; Spanish language ; Students ; Vietnam War ; Wisconsin 1276 Basketry Roberta Estrada discusses her involvement in basket-weaving. She explains that she has recently become involved with basketry by joining her cousin, Diania Caudell, on her school group presentation demonstrations. They also provide demonstrations to local universities about native plants. Estrada explains that they utilize processed plants from a company in Huntington Beach, CA for their presentations in order to ensure safety for their school groups. This ensures that are not handling plants that are sprayed with insecticides. Estrada also briefly explains an Indigenous coming-of-age ceremony that boys and girls participate in in the Luiseño culture. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Insecticides ; Luiseño people ; Native plants ; Pesticides ; San Luis Rey Mission Band ; School presentations 1732 Family background Roberta Estrada reflects on her Indigenous heritage and on her family’s background. She discusses how her late mother was an elder of their tribe, and how she had always turned to her mother for guidance in learning about their Luiseño culture and extended family. She also explains how she has more recently started learning about her Indigenous culture, traditions, and practices. She discusses current family traditions, such as powwows and other family gatherings. Extended family ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Native American elders ; San Luis Rey Mission Band 2032 Pride in heritage Roberta Estrada reflects on the feeling of proud of her Indigenous heritage. She explains how there are seven Luiseño tribes in the area, and yet, the San Luis Rey Mission Band tribe is the only federally unrecognized tribe. Estrada also discusses the San Luis Rey Mission Band’s recent attendance at the proclamation at the City of Oceanside meeting. She explains that this demonstrates that they are becoming more involved and making themselves more recognized in the community. She is excited to see younger San Luis Rey individuals become involved in the community. Community outreach ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous heritage ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; San Luis Rey Mission Band 2267 Land recognition and governmental involvement Roberta Estrada discusses the topic of land recognition. She explains that land acknowledgement is a much more recent component that has been added to events and presentations, whether in-person or virtual. She also explains how to present a land acknowledgment statement. Estrada also briefly explains the many obstacles that Indigenous tribes have to navigate through in order to be recognized by the U.S. government. Governmental involvment ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous lands ; Indigenous people ; Land acknowledgement ; Land recognition ; Native lands ; U.S. government 2473 Tribe's involvement in North County/ Identity and heritage Roberta Estrada reflects on North County. Specifically, she recalls her friends who operated Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch. The ranch’s land was eventually used to build California State University San Marcos. She also discusses how her family’s tribe aided the community and respected the land, such as cooking meals for the community. Estrada also explores the importance of oral history, especially in communities where histories are not recorded. Finally, she reflects on her heritage, explaining that she feels prouder of her Indigenous identity after entering retirement. She explains how she has reconnected with family members and her desire to pass on her heritage to her sons and grandchildren. She also expresses interest in continuing her education in learning the Luiseño language. California State University San Marcos ; Community outreach ; Extended family ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous heritage ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño language ; Luiseño people ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Oral history ; Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch ; San Luis Rey Mission Band ; San Marcos (Calif.) 3158 Advice to descendants Roberta Estrada provides advice to her descendants. She describes that she and her husband taught their two sons to live their life as they wish and to respect their elders. She is concerned that respect to one’s ancestors is a custom that is no longer practiced, and hopes that this is a life lesson that will be observed by future generations. Estrada ends the interview by discussing her upcoming basket-weaving presentations. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Descendants ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous heritage ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Native American elders ; San Luis Rey Mission Band Oral history Roberta Estrada is a Luiseño woman from the San Luis Rey Mission Band tribe. She grew up in Vista, CA and was educated throughout the North County school districts. She attended college, earning both Spanish and General Education degrees. She taught ESL in the San Marcos Unified District for thirty-two years. After retirement, she became more involved in the Indigenous community and learned basketry. She accompanies her cousin, Diania Caudell, on school group presentations and teaches audiences about basket-weaving and native plants. Estrada is proud of her Luiseño heritage, and continues reconnecting with family members and getting involved in Indigenous community activities. Estrada also discusses in her interview, the process of tribal recognition with the United States government, teaching English to Vietnam refugees, and the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch. April 6, 2023 Transcript Suzy Karasik: Good afternoon. Today is November 3rd, 2022. My name is Suzy Karasik and I am interviewing Roberta Estrada as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Roberta Estrada, thank you for joining me today. Roberta Estrada: My pleasure. Karasik: Great. So, I think probably the best part--the best place to start is a little bit of background--where you were born--and let' ; s talk about what was your childhood, like when you went to school, and how you identified yourself. So, I' ; ll give you plenty of time to go over that. Estrada: Well, I was born in--at Camp Pendleton at the old Marine Corps Hospital in 1945, and I' ; m the oldest of three children. My parents met at Camp Pendleton because my dad is from the Midwest, and we' ; re a very tight-knit family, and did a lot of things together. My mother i--wa--well, she' ; s passed away, but my mother was French and Native American from San Luis Rey area, and I am actually a--let me think now, what--third, fourth-born native of the area. So, I went to school very, very short period of time in Oceanside where we lived at the time when I started kindergarten. And my dad says, " ; No, that' ; s too close to Camp Pendleton. I' ; m out of the Marine Corps now. So, we' ; re going to move." ; So we moved to Vista (chuckles), long ways away. So, I only attended there for two months. At the time there was no busing for kindergarten children in Vista, so I didn' ; t go to school until I went into first grade. Went for two years in Vista and my dad says, " ; Met a couple and they said ' ; Oh no, you have to put your child in school in San Marcos because the schools are smaller and we liked them.' ; " ; So, he says, " ; Okay, we' ; ll shift you over there." ; So, I came to San Marcos in the third grade, and was there until I finished eighth grade, first graduating class out of what was then Alvin Dunn School, and then--now it' ; s changed to La Mirada Academy. Then I went to--we didn' ; t have high school in San Marcos. So, the kids that--the children that went to school in San Marcos and finished eighth grade were split up between Escondido and a few of us went in to Vista, because we were on the border of Vista and San Marcos. And, it was a much bigger school than San Marcos was when it was built, and so my dad says, " ; We' ; ll get you in there." ; Okay. So, my junior year of high school, I switched back to San Marcos schools with all of the people that--children--all the friends that I had and been raised with through school, and I finished high school the year that San Marcos became a city in 1963. Karasik: Very interesting. Estrada: Yes, and it' ; s been-- Karasik: And how was your experience there, like, when you said you were happy to go back to the school that you' ; d been with your friends in grade school? And were there other Native American children there? And let' ; s talk a little bit about also your Mexican last name and how you felt that might have been an advantage. Estrada: Well, at that time, my last name was not Estrada. At that time, my last name was Guy, very Anglo. So, in school, while I was in school in Vista, there were more of the local Hispanic children, and I don' ; t think I even associated with Native American children being--or picked out children as being--Native American at that time. All the way through school. I don' ; t believe I ever did. And I don' ; t think that that even happened until after I finished high school and I did go to college and majored in Spanish, and with a general education for elementary studies. But, I don' ; t ever remember connecting to the Native Americans at that time. My husband, his family--well, his fam--his immediate family was from Anaheim, but his father was from Pala. So, he was the Native. But he had the Native American in him. And the only reason that he got the Native American--the last name of Estrada was because that--his grandfather worked for people whose name was Estrada, and if they went to get any kind of bank accounts or do anything in town, they had to have a last name. They couldn' ; t just go by their Native American names. So, they took the last name of what we call the dueños, and those are the people that had the--the owners of the ranches and that' ; s where the Estrada name came from. But, um, my husband was the first one to get in--no, actually my mother, because her mother was Native American, and her father was also Native American. And s--their--my grandfather is from one of the prominent families in Oceanside, the Foussat family. And he is one of three brothers. So, he had a truck farm and we all learned how to help out on the truck farm. And that' ; s when I met a lot of the other Natives, I guess you would say, or--well, actually there weren' ; t a lot of Natives. There were more Hispanics than there were Natives that, uh, were in that area. Karasik: And back in that time, those years, did they k--refer to people as Natives or as Indians. Estrada: As Indians and if you talked to my father-in-law who was half-blood, he said that they could not claim being Indian or Native American and--or they would be put on--just like on the opposite side of the room at the end of the line or whatever. They had to claim--they ha--the Hispanic background, the Mexican background, in order to be eligible for a lot of things. And-- Karasik: So, this was talked about at home, and you were prepared to know how to best present yourself when you were in school or those situations. Estrada: I would say not until I probably was late high school. Karasik: Mm-hmm. But it was talked about at home. Estrada: A little bit. Well, be--the first thing that happened was that my father didn' ; t speak any--well, my mother spoke Spanish and that--because that was--they didn' ; t use a lot of the Native language at the time, and my father didn' ; t. So, it was, " ; Speak to the children in English. They need to learn in English." ; And they were married in the Catholic church, but my father had to--and in San Luis Rey Mission, in fact--but my father had to sign papers to say that my mother was to be allowed to raise the children as she was raised. So, because he was from the Midwest, and-- Karasik: She would be allowed-- Estrada: She would be allowed-- (nodding) Karasik: --to raise the children. Estrada: Yes. She would be. Karasik: And this was the San Luis Rey Mission-- Estrada: Yes. Karasik: --Band. Estrada: They were--well, yes. They were married in--at the San Luis Rey Mission in 1944, and that' ; s when--shortly after I was--I was probably about late high school when I--when my mother was getting more involved with the Native American group. She was more into helping others than--than trying to--to say " ; You' ; re--you' ; re Native American, Roberta. You need to think about this. You need to do this. You need to do that." ; She never really pointed that out to us. I have a younger sister and a younger brother, and the three of us have become pretty involved with the tribe now, of which I am part of the Tribal Council. My husband was part of the Tribal Council first, but when he could not do it any longer, then I was helping him by sitting by his side to start with. And then--and then I became part of the Tribal Council itself, aft--no, before he passed away. Karasik: I' ; m curious there. It sounds like, because you became part of the Tribal Council, and you are now, are women more respected and it' ; s a matriarchal kind of a society? And how did that feel for you, looking at other cultures where women weren' ; t perhaps quite as-- Estrada: Yes. There is more, um,--When you--If you look at our Tribal Council, I think it is a majority of women. I never even thought about it that way. But yes. And the other thing is that I would say that there were times when I would say, " ; Why don' ; t they let her speak. Why don' ; t--Why does he have to talk for her?" ; You know, when I would meet other families. And I, when I came--I went away to college, came back, and taught school here in San Marcos. And, um, the first class I taught was a kindergarten class and they were hiring--I was hired as a bilingual teacher, because I did have a Spanish major. And I can remember parents bringing their children in and not being allowed. The--the mother usually was not allowed to speak for the--for--for them. Or she would speak for the child, but if I asked a question, the mother would always turn and look to see if it was okay to answer or not. Karasik: And what year was this? Estrada: 1976. When I changed my name. Well, actually I came back in ' ; 70--let' ; s see, ' ; 68. Karasik: Right. Estrada: I came back in ' ; 68. I--What I had intended in--When I went to college, I went to college at a--what was called a county Normal School in the state of Wisconsin, because that was where my dad was from. I moved there. I lived with family so that I didn' ; t have to pay the extra in--tuition for anything. And when I came--and that was an experience in itself, because the-- I mean, my first teaching classes, my student teaching classes, were in one-room schools where they had everybody. The first room was just kindergarten through fourth grade, and the teacher I was teaching under was actually the principal of the school too. The second session was (chuckles) an eighth grade and that was even more interesting because that eighth grade had these kids that were much bigger than I was at the time. And, I mean, ' ; cuz it was only two years after I had finished high school. And, uh, then when I--I said, " ; You know. I like Wisconsin. I like the changes in the weather and the foliage and all of that. It was just really nice. But I' ; m a California girl." ; I came back. I went to school when they were first building Cal State San Bernardino. And I finished off my--Well, first when I came back, I had to get the basics from Palomar because we skipped right to the last two years of school. And now I had to go back and get my beginning language, my beginning math, my beginning sciences that the colleges require. Then I went to--When I finished at Palomar, I went to Cal State San Bernardino for two years and got my Life Credential for teaching, which is a no more existing thing now, anyhow. I don' ; t have to go back to take classes in order to teach. I could--I' ; ve been retired for thirteen plus years now. But I could go in and apply and still be eligible to get a job now if I wanted to, which I don' ; t because I' ; m too involved with too many other things. Karasik: Great. Um, yeah, I' ; m aware of that. They do not offer the Lifetime anymore. So, what was it like when you said, " ; I' ; m a California girl, and I want to come back." ; It sounds like a lot of things had changed within you as well. And I thought it was really interesting the way that you noticed how the women didn' ; t feel as comfortable--comfortable to speak. But what kind of changes did you see when you came back to the area, and--not even so much what did you see, but how did it feel for you? Obviously, you were thrilled to be back. But what--what did you kind of notice then and how did that shape the way that you carried on with your life? Estrada: Well, I think that I noticed at that time, probably into my maybe second or third year here, that the parents, the mothers were becoming more involved in what was going on. And they were more interested in how to help their children at the time. And that was a--a plus. I had a lot of connections to people that I could call on in the city also that helped out. I mean, yes, we had--I had friends that would bring their sheep in to show what happened to the sheep when they sheared it. And one of the boys that graduated from high school with me ended up to be the fire captain and I would call them and they would come out and do demonstrations during the--that. So, it just--and parents just really wanted to be a part of what was going on. And I think the moms became more involved because dads had to be working. Karasik: Right. And so was that part of the curriculum or was it--were you more free then to say " ; Hey, I think it would be a good idea for these children to see these kinds of living situations." ; Estrada: It was integrated into the curriculum. Yes. I' ; m going to say it that way. Because I could make a lesson--and I' ; m not bragging--but I could make a lesson out of, you know, a Hershey' ; s candy bar and teaching fractions. But it was something that you just made the children feel like they were part of your school community then. Other than that, they didn' ; t, you know--you go to school, you sit at a desk, you see, you pay attention to what the te--You' ; re here to learn is what they were taught. And I have to admit that was one of the things that the parents really instilled in them. But we would integrate a lot of the-- Karasik: Life skills. Estrada: --skills. Life skills. And we-- Karasik: Yes. Estrada: We made ice cream, so they' ; d learn how to measure. And we would--we celebrated all the cultures. You couldn' ; t celebrate Christmas as Christmas. This was an interesting one. So I incorporated all the different countries that I could think of and incorporated it into finding out about different cultures and their traditions at that time. So that was how I helped. Karasik: And there wasn' ; t a problem with that? Estrada: Not as long as I did that. I was-- Karasik: That you knew of. Estrada: There were--I was observed just like every other teacher had to be observed. I was observed a lot, and everything--I never had any problems with--and we had to turn in lesson plans on it. You know, it was just like " ; you want me to tell you exactly what I' ; m going to be doing in every single minute?" ; " ; Yes, we do." ; " ; Okay. So, I' ; ll write down general ones and you can come in and look any time you want." ; (laughs) Karasik: Right. Well, it sounds like, uh, it was definitely an--a--a--a plus or an advantage for you to have been from the area, having gone to another area to kind of gain that knowledge including your school. But that experience. And so would you say that it was definitely a benefit for you to feel like more imbedded in the community and you had all those-- Estrada: Oh, yes. Karasik: --connections and that made your life a lot more. Estrada: And because I taught for thirty-two years, I actually ended up teaching children of classmates that I had in school. Because a lot a--at that time they weren' ; t moving out of California. I mean, they weren' ; t moving out of San Marcos (laughs) as far as that goes. A lot of people stayed. Karasik: And people weren' ; t moving in as much, as well, as they are now. Estrada: We did--yeah. The--in my later years in teaching, then we had the--the children from Vietnam, the chil--you know, that--the immigrants from there. So-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Estrada: During that Vietnam time. Karasik: And I would assume that you integrate that--integrated them into the class. Or how did you handle some of that? Estrada: (laughs) You' ; re going to laugh, but I would speak Spanish to them. And I forget--I forget that wasn' ; t their second lan--their first language. And I would--but I--uh, there' ; s just one little--one little Vietnamese girl that sticks out in my mind so vividly is because she did not speak English when she started. So, we ran the--well, we were already using an ESL program because of going in to--well, having mostly Spanish children in the classroom at the time. And then, um, she made such a tremendous advance. By the time she graduated from high school, she was Valedictorian. Karasik: Oh, isn' ; t that great! Estrada: Yeah. So, in her--in her twelve years, you know, she was, um--she just moved right up the ladder. But it didn' ; t hurt her at all that we were speaking to her in Spanish. She picked up some! (laughs) Karasik: At a young age, yes. Estrada: Uh-huh. Karasik: It' ; s a lot easier. Well, I' ; d kind of like to move on to--I mean there' ; s--we could talk about how your work has changed since then. But I do happen to know that you' ; re a--a basket weaver. I don' ; t know if it' ; s a--if there' ; s certain levels or if you' ; re a professional. Estrada: I' ; m a beginner! Karasik: Oh, you are? But you' ; re very involved with the community and so maybe you could tell us, then. You were probably noticing changes, because certainly after the war and then after the Vietnam War, you know, society was changing considerably. Estrada: Oh, yes! Karasik: But when did you--like with the basket weaving and some of that, has that just been later in your retirement years or was it in--and you were raising children? Estrada: I have two sons, yes. I have two sons that are--I don' ; t even know--they' ; re 43 and 40, I think, right now. Forty--no, they' ; re 41 and 44. One' ; s going to be 44 next week. And I have to say that I didn' ; t really become involved in--as much with the tribe until after I retired. So, it' ; s been in the last thirteen plus years, only because I didn' ; t feel like I had enough time. I--I know you were a teacher also. But I--And I know that that just took up so much of my time, and my husband used to tell me, " ; Aren' ; t you done--Aren' ; t you off your job clock yet?" ; Or something like that would always be the remark. Now, he passed away three years ago, and I think that' ; s when I' ; ve really become more involved in the basket weaving, only because I felt like I needed to have something more that occupied me than sitting and thinking about what was going on. But, my cousin Diania Caudell says, " ; Come with me. You' ; re not working today. Come with me. I' ; m going to do a presentation at a school," ; or " ; Come and help me." ; That' ; s how it started. And, when we teach in the schools, we do a different style of basket only because it' ; s a little bit easier and we don' ; t use traditional plants at that time, because you don' ; t know if they' ; ve had any insecticide in them. You don' ; t know if they--you know, how safe or they' ; re going to have a reaction. And that' ; s the last thing you want if you go into a cla--into a group of 50 kids and have to do a--a--a basket and have somebody breaking out with a rash all over them. But so we went to cane products and we do a basic weave, and we make the starts for them. So, that' ; s what I' ; ve been doing now. Because we' ; re doing it in another couple of weeks. We have a couple of groups going on. And then, they just finish the basket. And that has been going with kids from, oh, Montessori aged schools--I mean, Montessori--for preschools all the way through to like eighth grade, and then some--Well, we' ; ve done it with the Cal State San Marcos and San Diego State also, um, college kids. Because they were in their Native American classes and their Native Studies classes, and we did baskets with them. And they would come and visit what we call Indian Rock in Vista. And it' ; s a puberty rock for girls, puberty stage. And so, um, they would come up and the--the schools have been--wa--Cal State San Marcos was involved in putting native plants there. And so, we worked very closely with them. I have a cousin now who was a professor at San Diego State, so we' ; ve become involved with some of her classes too. We also have--we do demonstrations that we call demonstrations where we use the native plants and do the native weave which is a little bit different and a little bit more complex because you have to use the awl in order to get the thread through. And so, we use the--the juncus and the--and the deer grass, and we' ; re going to be doing that tomorrow! At a school in San Luis Rey. Karasik: Oh, there' ; s so much there. One thing--when you said " ; cane," ; I--I' ; m--I' ; m thinking sugar cane. Estrada: Oh, no. It' ; s-- Karasik: Wha-- Estrada: --it' ; s the in--inside part of bamboo. Karasik: Of bamboo! Okay. Estrada: Yeah. They take it out and they compress it. And so, then it--and it--it comes-- Karasik: Now, who' ; s they. Do you get it--? Estrada: It' ; s from--we get it from a company in--in--in Huntington Beach. Karasik: So, it is processed. Estrada: It' ; s processed. Karasik: And they grow those there like they have maybe a ware--a greenhouse of-- Estrada: He gets it into a warehouse. We get it from a guy in a warehouse up there. Karasik: Uh-huh. Estrada: Only because, um, it' ; s just safer-- Karasik: It' ; s trusted. Estrada: --to use with it-- Karasik: --a trusted source, yeah. Estrada: I should have brought it inside because I-- Karasik: I--yeah. Estrada: I had some outside because I had to bring some for Diania! (laughs) Karasik: Oh yeah? And so, the other thing that I think is really interesting when you said " ; Puberty Rock." ; So is this something that was passed down for generations, and do you think that our an--your ancestors, I mean the-- Estrada: I' ; m sure that there were ancestors that went there and you--there' ; s markings. It' ; s on Indian Rock Road in Vista, off of Indian Rock. But it has markings and signs, handprints. But then of course, in the modern day, it' ; s been vandalized and so we' ; ve worked a lot with different companies and different schools and different technicians in order to find out how to remove a lot of that, because you can' ; t just go up there and paint over it like they do on the curbs and the houses and the sides of the walls, now. So, it has--(chuckles) it has poison oak around it, on purpose--(laughs) Karasik: Oh! Estrada: --now, so that you can' ; t go near it. But it was--the--Moro Hill near Camp Pendleton is part of our creation story. And it was from there a short distance to this Indian Rock and that' ; s where girls would go and do their handprints, or do a s--sign that, you know, a-- Karasik: Like a coming-of-age ceremony. Estrada: It' ; s much different than the boys. The boys go through a much rougher one. I mean, ants, and I don' ; t know what else. But the girls did, but-- Karasik: Did you participate? Estrada: I did not participate in that. And I was trying to get that information out of my mom. She reset--she told me that she remembered doing something, but then that' ; s it, you know. I never really--before she passed away--never really found out what the " ; it" ; was or the " ; something" ; was. Karasik: Right. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: And that' ; s―is there some sadness around that, or just wishing that you― Estrada: Oh, I―definitely now, because I' ; m learning so much more about the Native culture and the tribe itself, the intertwining of the families, the knowing that I have cousins beyond cousins, this kind of thing, and trying to have somebody right here (taps her right shoulder) on my little shoulder sometimes that would say, " ; Oh, that' ; s the daughter of your aunt blah-blah-blah. Or your cousin blah," ; and just trying to make sure that I knew. And she guided along that, because she was the--considered the elder in the tribe, when she passed away. And that' ; s been four years, a little bit over four years now. But, attended everything, and so that' ; s when I would learn more. I' ; d say, " ; I' ; ve seen them before, mom, but I don' ; t really remember." ; She says, " ; Well, when we were at your uncle' ; s house in the valley, that part of his family―" ; And I thought, okay. Those were the kinds of things that― Karasik: When you say, " ; I' ; ve seen them," ; you' ; re talking about some of the people that were in your family. Estrada: You would―either the family or people that would be associated with the family. I mean, I was at a Dia de Los Muertos last weekend in Fallbrook, and I thought, " ; Gee, a lot of these people (turning her head from side to side) I recognize." ; And I would stop to think, and I' ; d have to either go up and ask them, " ; Have I met you before?" ; (laughs) Or something like that. So that I would be able to make a connection. Karasik: Mmm. Estrada: And some of them I actually had met before. Karasik: Great. So, was there any, um, ritual that was done in the home, or anything that your parents ever talked about (Estrada shakes her head to indicate no) that was kind of handed down from the ancestors. Because I know there was certainly a time―like you said, sometimes it was more advantageous to be Latin or― Estrada: Mexican. Karasik: ―Mexican. Did you feel like, oh I would--I would love to have known more of the rituals or some of the ceremonies. Estrada: I' ; m just learning a lot about that now. As a family, we did not practice a lot of that. But then―I say we didn' ; t practice a lot of that. What I really feel like, maybe in a roundabout way, we did, because we always had large family gatherings. Now, in our tribe, we' ; ve had a powwow the second weekend of June every year until Covid hit. But it, um,―prior to that, it was―we would be gathering at a--a park, at a water place. I mean we were up at some creek up in Pamu―the Pauma area. Just places where―and it would be huge family gatherings, and, um, because there were eleven in my mom' ; s family, and then their kids and down through that, so― And then, besides the other brothers. One brother--one of my grandfather' ; s brother--had all daughters. I think there' ; s eleven or twelve of those. And then the other brother had six or seven. So that they―it--you know, so you just kind of (makes pulling apart gesture with her hands)―and then when you get these families all together― (makes pushing together gesture with her fists) My grand--my paren--my grandfather' ; s fa--family lived in Oceanside. And so, he was kind of the in-between the San Luis Rey brother and the Cardiff brother. So, it made a―The people in my mother' ; s family―I felt like she was a--a mediator or the in-between person to get to know this brother' ; s kids with this brother' ; s kids (gestures pulling from the left and the right into the center). And that' ; s kind of what I' ; m doing now. Karasik: Interesting. Estrada: Following in the footsteps, I guess you' ; d say. Karasik: Of your mother. How--what a beautiful way to honor her. Estrada: Well, and on top of that, I have my husband' ; s family, who is from Pala and San Jacinto area, and trying to get them to know the rest of this family. So, you know, it' ; s always " ; I' ; m going to call Roberta, because she' ; ll know." ; Well, if Roberta doesn' ; t know, she tries to figure it out and find out who it is, you know, make a connection. Karasik: Right. So, I wanted to―I guess I would use the word " ; pride." ; Was―because the--the times have changed now, di--but, when you were younger or compared to now, was the certain pride about being Native American? And then there were times where that was not talked about, like where you said it was easier to say I' ; m Mexican. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: And, um, whe--where is that now, and h--how has that changed over the years? And do you feel much more--more pride and feel that it' ; s more important? Or― Estrada: I think it' ; s very important, because there are seven Luseño tribes in the area. And San Luis Rey is the only unrecognized tribe. We are still trying to get the recognition process done. But I think we' ; re working at it together. We may not be federally recognized, but we are recognized by the people and the cities in the area. Last night, we went for a proclamation from the city of Oceanside. And, um, I think there were ten or twelve of us there last night, at the City Council meeting. And, um, it just made me feel like, " ; Oh! This is getting good." ; Because now they' ; re becoming more involved. For a while, it' ; s always the same group. And that group is getting up there in years. And we need to pass it along. And we' ; re trying to―right now, I' ; m working with a younger cousin who has, um, aspirations to involve the younger people, the thirty-and-unders people, to get in--more involved. And so, we' ; re working together and getting those―I couldn' ; t believe the amount of people that were there that were in that age group. And then at the―We went--After that, we went to the Inyan--Indian monument that' ; s in San Luis Rey Mission cemetery, in the old cemetery part. There' ; s an Indian monument, and we had quite a large group there, that we put candles out and all the great-grandmothers and uncles and aunts, and so forth, around there. It was very, very touching moment, to feel--to feel that so many of these people―And then, at the end they were even saying, " ; Well, we' ; d like to know more about this. Or maybe learn about that." ; Because there was a period of time when―I know my boys― Karasik: I wanted to ask you about your boys, if they' ; ve claimed their culture. Estrada: My boys did not know a lot about the Native Americans to start with. Karasik: Those two pages in the history book weren' ; t enough in eighth grade? (chuckles) Estrada: No. And it--they were not. And now they' ; re, um―they don' ; t live in the area. They both live in Arizona now. But they' ; re―because of their work, and they will ask questions, though. And they will want, say, " ; Oh, are we going to do that this year? Oh, I think I' ; ll come for powwow. Are we going to have it?" ; " ; Mom, I don' ; t think I' ; m quite sure on what to do with this." ; But they both learned how to make their frybread. (chuckles) Karasik: Yes. Estrada: That' ; s something that was stuck with them, and that was there. So― Karasik: Yeah. I think it' ; s really interesting how throughout the decades, if you will, it' ; s been sort of not in fashion― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: ―to look at your culture. Now, it' ; s very much in fashion. Estrada: Land acknowledgment, right now, is one of the big things. And so, you' ; ll hear that when you go to different, um, occasions, or different presentations. They' ; ll say, " ; We want to acknowledge that we are on Native land." ; We want to― Karasik: Absolutely. Estrada: ―you know. That' ; s more going on now, and you see that in their speeches. Whereas you didn' ; t see that before. Karasik: Absolutely. I--I find that in--in, just when I' ; m on a Zoom―in fact, my name―and then I put what city I' ; m in, and then I put what stolen lands that I occupy. Be― Estrada: Mm-hmm. Right now, we' ; re on (gestures quotes with her fingers) Karasik: Kume― Estrada: ―Native land. We' ; re on Ku―we' ; re―well, yes. We' ; re not on Kumeyaay land. We' ; re on―we' ; re in between, now. It' ; s between the Luseño and the Kumeyaay area. Karasik: And so, Luseño is sort of the umbrella of the six or seven tribes― Estrada: Seven tribes. Karasik: ―that you were talking about. And the recognition―are there certain aspects of it from the government or from the tr--tribe itself? Estrada: Government. Karasik: From the government. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: So, the tribes, for sure, recognize you, but it' ; s some kind of a governmental requirements to― Estrada: Yeah. There' ; s a lot of r--there' ; s a lot of red tape, you may as well say― Karasik: Right, right. Estrada: ―that you have to jump through. Karasik: And--and is― Estrada: You have to have proof of being a government from a--for a period of time. And so, that' ; s one of the things. Karasik: Of being like a sovereign― Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: ―nation or--or― Estrada: Yeah. Karasik: You know. Estrada: Where you have a―where you do things then. So, you' ; ll find if they' ; re doing any activities, you' ; ll find people that are recording that, so they' ; ll have a recording of what' ; s going on now. And― Karasik: Documentation― Estrada: ―documentation of all of that. Karasik: ―every―Right. Estrada: Going back to when we were talking about the basket weaving, we do a lot of things with the--the schools now. And so then, before we start with that, we tell them where we' ; re from. Yes, we know that this part―now, like when we went to do it at San Diego State. Yes, we are on Kumeyaay land right now. We were invited to do this. And what we use for the schools is a Cherokee style. And so, we were given permission from Tekua, so that it was--would be available. Giving―I don' ; t want to say permission―I want to say you recognize where everything came from. You don' ; t say it' ; s yours if it' ; s not yours. Karasik: So, there' ; s a respect for the origin of it, and then there' ; s also a--a, like you said, a recognition or a--um, yeah. I--I' ; m--I' ; m thinking of so many things. I--You said " ; tekua." ; Is that some organization, or what― Estrada: It' ; s the Cherokee, Cherokee band. Karasik: Oh! Okay. And who' ; s that umbrella? Estrada: Cherokee. Karasik: Ok. And then Tekua is underneath― Estrada: Yeah. They' ; re part of the Cherokee. Karasik: ―that. And then are they a little bit more going east, like to Arizona? Or are they― Estrada: No. They' ; re, um, more, um, Oklahoma area. Karasik: Oh, right. Okay. Estrada: In that area. Karasik: Okay. Um, oh, there' ; s just so much there. And you' ; ve really been wonderful to kind of branch into some of the questions that I wanted to ask you. Um, I think I--I want you to tell me how you feel about doing this oral history, and how important it is. What--what are--what kinds of things do you want our descendants to know, and how important will that be for--for them, and that' ; s why we' ; re doing this oral history. And then, maybe you can add in there some of your accomplishments, if there' ; s any regrets that you might have had, um, and kind of how your life path has changed, I think more since your retirement, and how that feels for you to, um, be more involved and have that pride and want to really pass that on and tell this story. Estrada: Well, it' ; s interesting, because I do have two twenty-year-old grandchildren, a sixteen-year-old, and a six-year-old, and trying to make them understand their heritage at the same time. And so, yes, I' ; m doing that with them, but I hope that other people are letting their children know about their culture and heritage, no matter what culture and heritage it is. And, um, having the pride, not hiding yourself. And it' ; s important to know that one of the things that--I mean, San Marcos―I have to say. I don' ; t live in San Marcos. I lived in San Marcos at one time. I did after I was married. Also, I lived there for a short time before we moved into Escondido and then Vista. So, we' ; ve lived in North County. But it' ; s always had a place in my heart. And the people are just so interested in what everybody else is doing. I grew up in this area being friends with people from the egg ranch--Prohoroff' ; s Egg Ranch--and just having, you know, and like all those race horses over here on the other side, and then the farmers on the other side. So, it was a big diverse. And I need to have my boys tell their kids that there' ; s more to it than Minecraft on the computer. Karasik: Uh, absolutely. Estrada: And so― Karasik: So, when you said egg ranch, it was like, " ; oh, there' ; s probably a whole story there." ; So, some of those, the egg ranch and the others that you will mention, they' ; re still here. So that' ; s― Estrada: (shakes her head). Karasik: Oh, they' ; re not. Oh. Estrada: C.S.U. S.M. was--is built― Karasik: On― Estrada: ―on the egg ranch, on Prohoroff' ; s Egg Ranch. Karasik: Oh! On all those lands. How was that? Estrada: It was hard at first. Karasik: Were there burial grounds there as well― Estrada: Um, probably. Karasik: ―that we know of? Estrada: No. Probably, probably. In the extension that they were building at San Marcos High School, they' ; re--in where they' ; re working, where the construction is now, there will be a lot of orange fencing. In the Creek Project in San Marcos, too, there' ; s a lot of orange fencing, because that' ; s all--the Natives lived along the water source, and I know that my mom' ; s aunts worked and--and my mom--I don' ; t think my mom' ; s mother did but--my mom' ; s aunts were in a lot of those camps, cooking for the people that were, you know, working on, or living in these areas, or working in these areas. Karasik: Yeah. I' ; m curious there, because I--I know back, you know, pre-modern technology, they often moved because first they respected the land. And there were different growing periods and animals. There are all kinds of reasons that they would move. And so, that would be then sometimes how the women might go there and then support that, or― Estrada: Ours went--Our tribe went from the ocean to the mountains, because they would go up in the mountains and collect the acorns and so forth. But my grandfather' ; s father was a sheep herder. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Estrada: And he would--would go up in that area. His―My grandmother' ; s brothers were miners and helped at the mining area in the Pala area. So, you know there was this way, and this way. San Luis Rey Mission is built on our Indian village site. The, um―they were given the opportunity to move up to the mountains or just spread (indicates spreading out in groups with her hands) and diverse themselves, and that' ; s what they did. A lot of them went into the farming and into construction and things like that. Karasik: So, you heard about your mother' ; s mother and father, or your--even like your husband' ; s parents and grandparents. Those were just stories that were kind of passed down. Do you feel― Estrada: It' ; s all oral story. Karasik: Yeah. And--and so that oral history, you― Estrada: Is important. Karasik: ―Absolutely. Estrada: It' ; s not all recorded, except (points to her head) up here now. Karasik: And that' ; s a lot why we' ; re doing it here. Estrada: That' ; s a big reason why I' ; m very into what' ; s going on right now. Yes. Karasik: And I think you' ; ve done a fantastic job. Estrada: Oh. Karasik: We could go on and on. I also think it' ; s ironic that, um, Cal State San Marcos, who' ; s doing this project, is on that land. Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: So, in a way, it is--they are giving back. Estrada: They' ; re sharing. Karasik: Which is--is really good. Estrada: The best part of this whole thing is this " ; site" ; (gestures air quotes) that we' ; re in today was actually on the elementary school that I went to. It was our cafeteria. Karasik: This specific building? Estrada: This specific building. It was our cafeteria, and we had our (gestures quotes with her hands) " ; dances" ; inside this building. We did our choir from the stage. Karasik: This stage? Estrada: This stage. The only thing that' ; s different about it now is there used to be a kitchen connected. Because when we were in maybe fourth grade up, you could be a--you could be a cafeteria helper. Karasik: Sure. Estrada: And, um, you' ; d help serve at the lunch line, and I did that. But it― Karasik: It' ; s interesting. When you said " ; dancing." ; So, it was okay to dance. And that dancing, was it more like " ; American culture?" ; Or was― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: It was. Estrada: Yes. It had nothing to do--do (shaking her head) with the Natives at all. Karasik: Okay. Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: Yeah. Um, I could talk about that, but this is your story. Estrada: (laughs) Karasik: Um, so, I' ; m thinking there' ; s not very many regrets. It sounds like you' ; ve really had a wonderful life. Estrada: I think after my retirement, um, I became more involved and then it made me feel even more proud of my heritage. Karasik: Yes. Estrada: And then the--on top of that, um, I made a lot of connections to different family members and my husband' ; s family, and trying to get that all focused on, so that I could intermingle that so I could pass that on to my boys who could pass it on to their children. And I really feel that by doing things like this and coming out and talking about it―I know that when I first started, Diania would say, " ; Let' ; s go." ; Okay. I' ; d go and I' ; d stand in the background. Well, I listened a lot. Well, that' ; s how I learned my Spanish in the first place, because my grandfather sold to―he sold the rabbits and the guy that came to pick up the rabbits couldn' ; t speak English and he would speak Spanish to him. And here would be Roberta by his side. So, I mean, he was one of the influential people, I' ; m learning, that second language that was so important in this area. But, um, now I' ; m interested in trying to pick up the Luseño language, the Chamteela. I can' ; t even say it. Because we' ; re called the Payómkawichum, which are the people of the west. And so, it goes all along the western coast and in--into the mountain. Karasik: And is there anyone still around― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: ―to teach some of that? Estrada: Yes. I have to take my time and go to those classes. Karasik: So― Estrada: Right now, they' ; re just starting some Zoom classes for―they called it for the young people. But there' ; s a lot of people that want to learn it beyond that. So, we' ; ll see what happens. But they' ; re doing them on Zoom right now. Karasik: You― Estrada: Because you need to hear it. Karasik: I' ; m sure, yes. Estrada: You need to hear it. You can' ; t do it from the book― Karasik: You have to― Estrada: ―and read it. And, um, I' ; ve got several little kid' ; s books that I' ; ve gotten from my grandkids that have the English on one side and the Luseño language on the other side and yes, you can do it that way, but you still don' ; t hear the correct pronunciation. Karasik: Yeah. That' ; s really important. The--it' ; s--I' ; m feeling like in some ways it' ; s full circle. You know. It' ; s coming back full circle, and now a--a--the pride is really more known amongst― Estrada: I think it' ; s more evident now and you can feel it. Karasik: And even outside of your culture. Estrada: Yeah, you can see it coming back. Because looking out at the people that were sitting at the City Hall last night, and them paying attention to what was being said about our culture, about ourselves, by the captain at the time. Mel was talking and you just look out at the people and you could see them really into what was being said about what was going on there, so― Karasik: That must feel wonderful. Estrada: Yeah. And so, I mean, it makes you feel. I told them that. I told somebody else, after the Dia de Los Muertos thing last night. I just go, " ; You know, I really feel very proud to be part of this group." ; And it ma--it makes you feel like― Karasik: Right. Estrada: ―you' ; re doing something good. Karasik: Absolutely. I' ; m so happy for you. Estrada: (chuckles) Karasik: And so, I guess, um, in closing, obviously if there' ; s anything else that you' ; d really like to say, but I feel like we' ; ve had a--a really wonderful conversation. And I hope you do as well. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: But if you―you know, there' ; s a lot of work done now too, around, beyond the veil. Like people have passed and sometimes people want to get in touch with them, or wish that they could have, you know, tell― Estrada: Conversations. Karasik: Right! And so, if you had that―if some of our--your descendants had the opportunity to talk with you, which is a lot of what this will be for them― Estrada: Oh, yes. Karasik: ―what--what would you tell them that is most important, the things that they should really pay attention to, and the things that don' ; t be so concerned with. Like, what' ; s the most important thing, particularly involving your culture and how they want to live their lives that--that honors your--your history, your heritage. Estrada: I would say―well, I do this to my boys right now. I tell them, you know, " ; You need to live your life like you feel. But you also need to remember and respect all the adults." ; I mean, as we were raising the two boys, Richard and I did not allow them to speak out of turn to--to them. Not to say harsh things or anything like that. And I think that that' ; s fallen away right now. And that' ; s really something important that needs to be brought back, is the respect for your ancestors. Whether they be living or not. And I hope that this is one of the programs that shows the importance of the lives of people that have been and what they' ; ve gone through. I mean, nothing' ; s been real easy for me, but I have to say that with the support that you have, no matter where it comes from, it' ; s important that they pick it up. Karasik: And how important that support was in your life. Had you been, for example, stayed back in Wisconsin―although they have some pretty strong tribal activities― Estrada: I have―my dad has got a brother-in-law that his whole family, all his nieces and nephews, are really into it. But it' ; s not a―I guess it' ; s because it' ; s not immediately connected. Maybe that' ; s what it is? I mean " ; in bloodline" ; means nothing. Or how much blood―" ; quantum" ; does not mean anything. It means--what means something--what should mean something to them is that they were related to someone who spoke up and tried to help others in the area. And that' ; s what we' ; re doing as a tribe, non-federally recognized tribe. Yes, we have a California recognition, and basically that' ; s because of water rights. But the Califor--the federally recognized tribes, some of them, look down on you now. But who' ; s doing the work? Just keep plugging along and making sure that you' ; re doing what you think is best for yourself and your family. Karasik: That' ; s beautiful. Who' ; s doing the work. Estrada: Yeah. Karasik: Yes. Well, I think this is probably a good place to stop― Estrada: Okay. Karasik: ―all though we could go on. And we' ; ll see what happens with the archives, and what else we might want to do. Like, it would be really wonderful to videotape a basket weaving class. I don' ; t know if that' ; s possible. And I' ; m certainly wanting to attend and--and learn more, but― Estrada: There will be some on November twelfth. That' ; s basket weaving. Karasik: Is that the same day as the Luseño honoring that? Estrada: (nods) Karasik: Yes. Estrada: Yes, it is. Karasik: Oh, and we didn' ; t mention, which I thought was so wonderful, that this happens to be Native American― Estrada: Native American month. Karasik: ―American Heritage month. So, we' ; re celebrating and honoring it. Estrada: (chuckles) Karasik: And we have one of the best elders here. Estrada: Oh, thank you. Karasik: Oh, that was one question I wanted to ask you. The word " ; crone," ; does that come from your culture? Estrada: The what? Karasik: Crone? Estrada: No. Karasik: Okay. It' ; s an elder woman. And I' ; m not really sure where it comes from. I think it might be Celtic or another matriarchal based culture. Estrada: Uh-huh. Karasik: But I think that the respect for the elders in your culture is--is very strong. Estrada: It' ; s very strong. Karasik: And that' ; s really so important. And that--I think what the children―which you have shown in your family and with all your--all your relations. Karasik: Omitaki. Estrada: (laughs) A lot of them. Karasik: Yeah. That' ; s wonderful. Well, thank you so very much. Estrada: And thank you for having me. Karasik: Yes, and again this is Roberta Estrada. And we are in San Marcos at the Heritage Museum here and this is all part of the Cal State San Marcos Archive pro--Oral History program. Estrada: Oral history. Karasik: Yes. Thank you very much! https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Title
A name given to the resource
Estrada, Roberta. Interview November 3, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
Roberta Estrada is a Luiseño woman from the San Luis Rey Mission Band of Mission Indians. She grew up in Vista, CA and was educated throughout the North County school districts. She attended college, earning both Spanish and General Education degrees. She taught ESL in the San Marcos Unified District for thirty-two years. After retirement, she became more involved in the Indigenous community and learned basketry. She accompanies her cousin, Diania Caudell, on school group presentations and teaches audiences about basket-weaving and native plants. Estrada is proud of her Luiseño heritage, and continues reconnecting with family members and getting involved in Indigenous community activities. Estrada also discusses in her interview, the process of tribal recognition with the United States government, teaching English to Vietnam refugees, and the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-31
Subject
The topic of the resource
Basket making
Education, ESL
Endemic plants -- Southern California
Luiseño Indians
Refugees -- Vietnam
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-11-03
Format
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video
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Roberta Estrada
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Suzy Karasik
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
San Marcos (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Roberta Estrada
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving image
Community history
Native American experience
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/68cc93b349d572359c4680f7c6576237.pdf
742db1a15707b29f357b16addcd6bf62
PDF Text
Text
ROBERTA ESTRADA
TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-11-03
Suzy Karasik: Good afternoon. Today is November 3rd, 2022. My name is Suzy Karasik and I
am interviewing Roberta Estrada as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Roberta
Estrada, thank you for joining me today.
Roberta Estrada: My pleasure.
Karasik: Great. So, I think probably the best part–the best place to start is a little bit of
background—where you were born—and let’s talk about what was your childhood, like when
you went to school, and how you identified yourself. So, I’ll give you plenty of time to go over
that.
Estrada: Well, I was born in–at Camp Pendleton at the old Marine Corps Hospital in 1945, and
I’m the oldest of three children. My parents met at Camp Pendleton because my dad is from the
Midwest, and we’re a very tight-knit family, and did a lot of things together. My mother i–wa–
well, she’s passed away, but my mother was French and Native American from San Luis Rey
area, and I am actually a—let me think now, what—third, fourth-born native of the area. So, I
went to school very, very short period of time in Oceanside where we lived at the time when I
started kindergarten. And my dad says, “No, that’s too close to Camp Pendleton. I’m out of the
Marine Corps now. So, we’re going to move.” So we moved to Vista (chuckles), long ways
away. So, I only attended there for two months. At the time there was no busing for kindergarten
children in Vista, so I didn’t go to school until I went into first grade. Went for two years in Vista
and my dad says, “Met a couple and they said ‘Oh no, you have to put your child in school in
San Marcos because the schools are smaller and we liked them.’” So, he says, “Okay, we’ll shift
you over there.” So, I came to San Marcos in the third grade, and was there until I finished eighth
grade, first graduating class out of what was then Alvin Dunn School, and then—now it’s
changed to La Mirada Academy. Then I went to—we didn’t have high school in San Marcos. So,
the kids that–the children that went to school in San Marcos and finished eighth grade were split
up between Escondido and a few of us went in to Vista, because we were on the border of Vista
and San Marcos. And, it was a much bigger school than San Marcos was when it was built, and
so my dad says, “We’ll get you in there.” Okay. So, my junior year of high school, I switched
back to San Marcos schools with all of the people that–children–all the friends that I had and
been raised with through school, and I finished high school the year that San Marcos became a
city in 1963.
Karasik: Very interesting.
Estrada: Yes, and it’s been—
Karasik: And how was your experience there, like, when you said you were happy to go back to
the school that you’d been with your friends in grade school? And were there other Native
American children there? And let’s talk a little bit about also your Mexican last name and how
you felt that might have been an advantage.
Estrada: Well, at that time, my last name was not Estrada. At that time, my last name was Guy,
very Anglo. So, in school, while I was in school in Vista, there were more of the local Hispanic
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�ROBERTA ESTRADA
TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-11-03
children, and I don’t think I even associated with Native American children being—or picked out
children as being—Native American at that time. All the way through school. I don’t believe I
ever did. And I don’t think that that even happened until after I finished high school and I did go
to college and majored in Spanish, and with a general education for elementary studies. But, I
don’t ever remember connecting to the Native Americans at that time. My husband, his family—
well, his fam–his immediate family was from Anaheim, but his father was from Pala. So, he was
the Native. But he had the Native American in him. And the only reason that he got the Native
American—the last name of Estrada was because that–his grandfather worked for people whose
name was Estrada, and if they went to get any kind of bank accounts or do anything in town,
they had to have a last name. They couldn’t just go by their Native American names. So, they
took the last name of what we call the dueños, and those are the people that had the–the owners
of the ranches and that’s where the Estrada name came from. But, um, my husband was the first
one to get in—no, actually my mother, because her mother was Native American, and her father
was also Native American. And s–their–my grandfather is from one of the prominent families in
Oceanside, the Foussat family. And he is one of three brothers. So, he had a truck farm and we
all learned how to help out on the truck farm. And that’s when I met a lot of the other Natives, I
guess you would say, or—well, actually there weren’t a lot of Natives. There were more
Hispanics than there were Natives that, uh, were in that area.
Karasik: And back in that time, those years, did they k–refer to people as Natives or as Indians.
Estrada: As Indians and if you talked to my father-in-law who was half-blood, he said that they
could not claim being Indian or Native American and–or they would be put on—just like on the
opposite side of the room at the end of the line or whatever. They had to claim–they ha–the
Hispanic background, the Mexican background, in order to be eligible for a lot of things. And—
Karasik: So, this was talked about at home, and you were prepared to know how to best present
yourself when you were in school or those situations.
Estrada: I would say not until I probably was late high school.
Karasik: Mm-hmm. But it was talked about at home.
Estrada: A little bit. Well, be–the first thing that happened was that my father didn’t speak any—
well, my mother spoke Spanish and that–because that was–they didn’t use a lot of the Native
language at the time, and my father didn’t. So, it was, “Speak to the children in English. They
need to learn in English.” And they were married in the Catholic church, but my father had to—
and in San Luis Rey Mission, in fact—but my father had to sign papers to say that my mother
was to be allowed to raise the children as she was raised. So, because he was from the Midwest,
and—
Karasik: She would be allowed—
Estrada: She would be allowed— (nodding)
Karasik: —to raise the children.
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Estrada: Yes. She would be.
Karasik: And this was the San Luis Rey Mission—
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: —Band.
Estrada: They were—well, yes. They were married in–at the San Luis Rey Mission in 1944, and
that’s when–shortly after I was–I was probably about late high school when I–when my mother
was getting more involved with the Native American group. She was more into helping others
than–than trying to–to say “You’re–you’re Native American, Roberta. You need to think about
this. You need to do this. You need to do that.” She never really pointed that out to us. I have a
younger sister and a younger brother, and the three of us have become pretty involved with the
tribe now, of which I am part of the Tribal Council. My husband was part of the Tribal Council
first, but when he could not do it any longer, then I was helping him by sitting by his side to start
with. And then–and then I became part of the Tribal Council itself, aft–no, before he passed
away.
Karasik: I’m curious there. It sounds like, because you became part of the Tribal Council, and
you are now, are women more respected and it’s a matriarchal kind of a society? And how did
that feel for you, looking at other cultures where women weren’t perhaps quite as—
Estrada: Yes. There is more, um,—When you—If you look at our Tribal Council, I think it is a
majority of women. I never even thought about it that way. But yes. And the other thing is that I
would say that there were times when I would say, “Why don’t they let her speak. Why don’t–
Why does he have to talk for her?” You know, when I would meet other families. And I, when I
came—I went away to college, came back, and taught school here in San Marcos. And, um, the
first class I taught was a kindergarten class and they were hiring–I was hired as a bilingual
teacher, because I did have a Spanish major. And I can remember parents bringing their children
in and not being allowed. The–the mother usually was not allowed to speak for the–for–for them.
Or she would speak for the child, but if I asked a question, the mother would always turn and
look to see if it was okay to answer or not.
Karasik: And what year was this?
Estrada: 1976. When I changed my name. Well, actually I came back in ’70—let’s see, ’68.
Karasik: Right.
Estrada: I came back in ’68. I–What I had intended in–When I went to college, I went to college
at a–what was called a county Normal School in the state of Wisconsin, because that was where
my dad was from. I moved there. I lived with family so that I didn’t have to pay the extra in–
tuition for anything. And when I came—and that was an experience in itself, because the— I
mean, my first teaching classes, my student teaching classes, were in one-room schools where
they had everybody. The first room was just kindergarten through fourth grade, and the teacher I
was teaching under was actually the principal of the school too. The second session was
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(chuckles) an eighth grade and that was even more interesting because that eighth grade had
these kids that were much bigger than I was at the time. And, I mean, ‘cuz it was only two years
after I had finished high school. And, uh, then when I–I said, “You know. I like Wisconsin. I like
the changes in the weather and the foliage and all of that. It was just really nice. But I’m a
California girl.” I came back. I went to school when they were first building Cal State San
Bernardino. And I finished off my—Well, first when I came back, I had to get the basics from
Palomar because we skipped right to the last two years of school. And now I had to go back and
get my beginning language, my beginning math, my beginning sciences that the colleges require.
Then I went to—When I finished at Palomar, I went to Cal State San Bernardino for two years
and got my Life Credential for teaching, which is a no more existing thing now, anyhow. I don’t
have to go back to take classes in order to teach. I could—I’ve been retired for thirteen plus years
now. But I could go in and apply and still be eligible to get a job now if I wanted to, which I
don’t because I’m too involved with too many other things.
Karasik: Great. Um, yeah, I’m aware of that. They do not offer the Lifetime anymore. So, what
was it like when you said, “I’m a California girl, and I want to come back.” It sounds like a lot of
things had changed within you as well. And I thought it was really interesting the way that you
noticed how the women didn’t feel as comfortable–comfortable to speak. But what kind of
changes did you see when you came back to the area, and—not even so much what did you see,
but how did it feel for you? Obviously, you were thrilled to be back. But what–what did you kind
of notice then and how did that shape the way that you carried on with your life?
Estrada: Well, I think that I noticed at that time, probably into my maybe second or third year
here, that the parents, the mothers were becoming more involved in what was going on. And they
were more interested in how to help their children at the time. And that was a–a plus. I had a lot
of connections to people that I could call on in the city also that helped out. I mean, yes, we had–
I had friends that would bring their sheep in to show what happened to the sheep when they
sheared it. And one of the boys that graduated from high school with me ended up to be the fire
captain and I would call them and they would come out and do demonstrations during the–that.
So, it just–and parents just really wanted to be a part of what was going on. And I think the
moms became more involved because dads had to be working.
Karasik: Right. And so was that part of the curriculum or was it–were you more free then to say
“Hey, I think it would be a good idea for these children to see these kinds of living situations.”
Estrada: It was integrated into the curriculum. Yes. I’m going to say it that way. Because I could
make a lesson—and I’m not bragging—but I could make a lesson out of, you know, a Hershey’s
candy bar and teaching fractions. But it was something that you just made the children feel like
they were part of your school community then. Other than that, they didn’t, you know—you go
to school, you sit at a desk, you see, you pay attention to what the te—You’re here to learn is
what they were taught. And I have to admit that was one of the things that the parents really
instilled in them. But we would integrate a lot of the—
Karasik: Life skills.
Estrada: —skills. Life skills. And we—
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Karasik: Yes.
Estrada: We made ice cream, so they’d learn how to measure. And we would—we celebrated all
the cultures. You couldn’t celebrate Christmas as Christmas. This was an interesting one. So I
incorporated all the different countries that I could think of and incorporated it into finding out
about different cultures and their traditions at that time. So that was how I helped.
Karasik: And there wasn’t a problem with that?
Estrada: Not as long as I did that. I was—
Karasik: That you knew of.
Estrada: There were—I was observed just like every other teacher had to be observed. I was
observed a lot, and everything—I never had any problems with—and we had to turn in lesson
plans on it. You know, it was just like “you want me to tell you exactly what I’m going to be
doing in every single minute?” “Yes, we do.” “Okay. So, I’ll write down general ones and you
can come in and look any time you want.” (laughs)
Karasik: Right. Well, it sounds like, uh, it was definitely an–a–a–a plus or an advantage for you
to have been from the area, having gone to another area to kind of gain that knowledge including
your school. But that experience. And so would you say that it was definitely a benefit for you to
feel like more imbedded in the community and you had all those—
Estrada: Oh, yes.
Karasik: —connections and that made your life a lot more.
Estrada: And because I taught for thirty-two years, I actually ended up teaching children of
classmates that I had in school. Because a lot a—at that time they weren’t moving out of California.
I mean, they weren’t moving out of San Marcos (laughs) as far as that goes. A lot of people stayed.
Karasik: And people weren’t moving in as much, as well, as they are now.
Estrada: We did–yeah. The–in my later years in teaching, then we had the–the children from
Vietnam, the chil—you know, that–the immigrants from there. So—
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Estrada: During that Vietnam time.
Karasik: And I would assume that you integrate that—integrated them into the class. Or how did
you handle some of that?
Estrada: (laughs) You’re going to laugh, but I would speak Spanish to them. And I forget–I forget
that wasn’t their second lan–their first language. And I would—but I—uh, there’s just one little–
one little Vietnamese girl that sticks out in my mind so vividly is because she did not speak English
when she started. So, we ran the—well, we were already using an ESL program because of going
in to—well, having mostly Spanish children in the classroom at the time. And then, um, she made
such a tremendous advance. By the time she graduated from high school, she was Valedictorian.
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Karasik: Oh, isn’t that great!
Estrada: Yeah. So, in her–in her twelve years, you know, she was, um–she just moved right up the
ladder. But it didn’t hurt her at all that we were speaking to her in Spanish. She picked up some!
(laughs)
Karasik: At a young age, yes.
Estrada: Uh-huh.
Karasik: It’s a lot easier. Well, I’d kind of like to move on to—I mean there’s—we could talk
about how your work has changed since then. But I do happen to know that you’re a–a basket
weaver. I don’t know if it’s a—if there’s certain levels or if you’re a professional.
Estrada: I’m a beginner!
Karasik: Oh, you are? But you’re very involved with the community and so maybe you could tell
us, then. You were probably noticing changes, because certainly after the war and then after the
Vietnam War, you know, society was changing considerably.
Estrada: Oh, yes!
Karasik: But when did you—like with the basket weaving and some of that, has that just been later
in your retirement years or was it in—and you were raising children?
Estrada: I have two sons, yes. I have two sons that are—I don’t even know—they’re 43 and 40, I
think, right now. Forty—no, they’re 41 and 44. One’s going to be 44 next week. And I have to say
that I didn’t really become involved in–as much with the tribe until after I retired. So, it’s been in
the last thirteen plus years, only because I didn’t feel like I had enough time. I–I know you were a
teacher also. But I–And I know that that just took up so much of my time, and my husband used
to tell me, “Aren’t you done—Aren’t you off your job clock yet?” Or something like that would
always be the remark. Now, he passed away three years ago, and I think that’s when I’ve really
become more involved in the basket weaving, only because I felt like I needed to have something
more that occupied me than sitting and thinking about what was going on. But, my cousin Diania
Caudell says, “Come with me. You’re not working today. Come with me. I’m going to do a
presentation at a school,” or “Come and help me.” That’s how it started. And, when we teach in
the schools, we do a different style of basket only because it’s a little bit easier and we don’t use
traditional plants at that time, because you don’t know if they’ve had any insecticide in them. You
don’t know if they—you know, how safe or they’re going to have a reaction. And that’s the last
thing you want if you go into a cla–into a group of 50 kids and have to do a–a–a basket and have
somebody breaking out with a rash all over them. But so we went to cane products and we do a
basic weave, and we make the starts for them. So, that’s what I’ve been doing now. Because we’re
doing it in another couple of weeks. We have a couple of groups going on. And then, they just
finish the basket. And that has been going with kids from, oh, Montessori aged schools—I mean,
Montessori–for preschools all the way through to like eighth grade, and then some—Well, we’ve
done it with the Cal State San Marcos and San Diego State also, um, college kids. Because they
were in their Native American classes and their Native Studies classes, and we did baskets with
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them. And they would come and visit what we call Indian Rock in Vista. And it’s a puberty rock
for girls, puberty stage. And so, um, they would come up and the–the schools have been–wa–Cal
State San Marcos was involved in putting native plants there. And so, we worked very closely with
them. I have a cousin now who was a professor at San Diego State, so we’ve become involved
with some of her classes too. We also have—we do demonstrations that we call demonstrations
where we use the native plants and do the native weave which is a little bit different and a little bit
more complex because you have to use the awl in order to get the thread through. And so, we use
the–the juncus and the–and the deer grass, and we’re going to be doing that tomorrow! At a school
in San Luis Rey.
Karasik: Oh, there’s so much there. One thing—when you said “cane,” I–I’m–I’m thinking sugar
cane.
Estrada: Oh, no. It’s—
Karasik: Wha—
Estrada: —it’s the in–inside part of bamboo.
Karasik: Of bamboo! Okay.
Estrada: Yeah. They take it out and they compress it. And so, then it—and it–it comes—
Karasik: Now, who’s they. Do you get it—?
Estrada: It’s from—we get it from a company in–in–in Huntington Beach.
Karasik: So, it is processed.
Estrada: It’s processed.
Karasik: And they grow those there like they have maybe a ware–a greenhouse of—
Estrada: He gets it into a warehouse. We get it from a guy in a warehouse up there.
Karasik: Uh-huh.
Estrada: Only because, um, it’s just safer—
Karasik: It’s trusted.
Estrada: —to use with it—
Karasik: —a trusted source, yeah.
Estrada: I should have brought it inside because I—
Karasik: I—yeah.
Estrada: I had some outside because I had to bring some for Diania! (laughs)
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Karasik: Oh yeah? And so, the other thing that I think is really interesting when you said “Puberty
Rock.” So is this something that was passed down for generations, and do you think that our an—
your ancestors, I mean the—
Estrada: I’m sure that there were ancestors that went there and you—there’s markings. It’s on
Indian Rock Road in Vista, off of Indian Rock. But it has markings and signs, handprints. But then
of course, in the modern day, it’s been vandalized and so we’ve worked a lot with different
companies and different schools and different technicians in order to find out how to remove a lot
of that, because you can’t just go up there and paint over it like they do on the curbs and the houses
and the sides of the walls, now. So, it has–(chuckles) it has poison oak around it, on purpose—
(laughs)
Karasik: Oh!
Estrada: —now, so that you can’t go near it. But it was–the—Moro Hill near Camp Pendleton is
part of our creation story. And it was from there a short distance to this Indian Rock and that’s
where girls would go and do their handprints, or do a s–sign that, you know, a—
Karasik: Like a coming-of-age ceremony.
Estrada: It’s much different than the boys. The boys go through a much rougher one. I mean, ants,
and I don’t know what else. But the girls did, but—
Karasik: Did you participate?
Estrada: I did not participate in that. And I was trying to get that information out of my mom. She
reset—she told me that she remembered doing something, but then that’s it, you know. I never
really—before she passed away—never really found out what the “it” was or the “something” was.
Karasik: Right.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: And that’s―is there some sadness around that, or just wishing that you―
Estrada: Oh, I―definitely now, because I’m learning so much more about the Native culture and
the tribe itself, the intertwining of the families, the knowing that I have cousins beyond cousins,
this kind of thing, and trying to have somebody right here (taps her right shoulder) on my little
shoulder sometimes that would say, “Oh, that’s the daughter of your aunt blah-blah-blah. Or
your cousin blah,” and just trying to make sure that I knew. And she guided along that, because
she was the–considered the elder in the tribe, when she passed away. And that’s been four years,
a little bit over four years now. But, attended everything, and so that’s when I would learn more.
I’d say, “I’ve seen them before, mom, but I don’t really remember.” She says, “Well, when we
were at your uncle’s house in the valley, that part of his family―” And I thought, okay. Those
were the kinds of things that―
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Karasik: When you say, “I’ve seen them,” you’re talking about some of the people that were in
your family.
Estrada: You would―either the family or people that would be associated with the family. I
mean, I was at a Dia de Los Muertos last weekend in Fallbrook, and I thought, “Gee, a lot of
these people (turning her head from side to side) I recognize.” And I would stop to think, and I’d
have to either go up and ask them, “Have I met you before?” (laughs) Or something like that. So
that I would be able to make a connection.
Karasik: Mmm.
Estrada: And some of them I actually had met before.
Karasik: Great. So, was there any, um, ritual that was done in the home, or anything that your
parents ever talked about (Estrada shakes her head to indicate no) that was kind of handed down
from the ancestors. Because I know there was certainly a time―like you said, sometimes it was
more advantageous to be Latin or―
Estrada: Mexican.
Karasik: ―Mexican. Did you feel like, oh I would–I would love to have known more of the
rituals or some of the ceremonies.
Estrada: I’m just learning a lot about that now. As a family, we did not practice a lot of that. But
then―I say we didn’t practice a lot of that. What I really feel like, maybe in a roundabout way,
we did, because we always had large family gatherings. Now, in our tribe, we’ve had a powwow
the second weekend of June every year until Covid hit. But it, um,―prior to that, it was―we
would be gathering at a–a park, at a water place. I mean we were up at some creek up in
Pamu―the Pauma area. Just places where―and it would be huge family gatherings, and, um,
because there were eleven in my mom’s family, and then their kids and down through that, so―
And then, besides the other brothers. One brother–one of my grandfather’s brother—had all
daughters. I think there’s eleven or twelve of those. And then the other brother had six or seven.
So that they―it–you know, so you just kind of (makes pulling apart gesture with her hands)―and
then when you get these families all together― (makes pushing together gesture with her fists)
My grand–my paren–my grandfather’s fa–family lived in Oceanside. And so, he was kind of the
in-between the San Luis Rey brother and the Cardiff brother. So, it made a―The people in my
mother’s family―I felt like she was a–a mediator or the in-between person to get to know this
brother’s kids with this brother’s kids (gestures pulling from the left and the right into the
center). And that’s kind of what I’m doing now.
Karasik: Interesting.
Estrada: Following in the footsteps, I guess you’d say.
Karasik: Of your mother. How–what a beautiful way to honor her.
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Estrada: Well, and on top of that, I have my husband’s family, who is from Pala and San Jacinto
area, and trying to get them to know the rest of this family. So, you know, it’s always “I’m going
to call Roberta, because she’ll know.” Well, if Roberta doesn’t know, she tries to figure it out
and find out who it is, you know, make a connection.
Karasik: Right. So, I wanted to―I guess I would use the word “pride.” Was―because the–the
times have changed now, di–but, when you were younger or compared to now, was the certain
pride about being Native American? And then there were times where that was not talked about,
like where you said it was easier to say I’m Mexican.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: And, um, whe–where is that now, and h–how has that changed over the years? And do
you feel much more–more pride and feel that it’s more important? Or―
Estrada: I think it’s very important, because there are seven Luseño tribes in the area. And San
Luis Rey is the only unrecognized tribe. We are still trying to get the recognition process done.
But I think we’re working at it together. We may not be federally recognized, but we are
recognized by the people and the cities in the area. Last night, we went for a proclamation from
the city of Oceanside. And, um, I think there were ten or twelve of us there last night, at the City
Council meeting. And, um, it just made me feel like, “Oh! This is getting good.” Because now
they’re becoming more involved. For a while, it’s always the same group. And that group is
getting up there in years. And we need to pass it along. And we’re trying to―right now, I’m
working with a younger cousin who has, um, aspirations to involve the younger people, the
thirty-and-unders people, to get in–more involved. And so, we’re working together and getting
those―I couldn’t believe the amount of people that were there that were in that age group. And
then at the―We went–After that, we went to the Inyan–Indian monument that’s in San Luis Rey
Mission cemetery, in the old cemetery part. There’s an Indian monument, and we had quite a
large group there, that we put candles out and all the great-grandmothers and uncles and aunts,
and so forth, around there. It was very, very touching moment, to feel–to feel that so many of
these people―And then, at the end they were even saying, “Well, we’d like to know more about
this. Or maybe learn about that.” Because there was a period of time when―I know my boys―
Karasik: I wanted to ask you about your boys, if they’ve claimed their culture.
Estrada: My boys did not know a lot about the Native Americans to start with.
Karasik: Those two pages in the history book weren’t enough in eighth grade? (chuckles)
Estrada: No. And it–they were not. And now they’re, um―they don’t live in the area. They both
live in Arizona now. But they’re―because of their work, and they will ask questions, though.
And they will want, say, “Oh, are we going to do that this year? Oh, I think I’ll come for
powwow. Are we going to have it?” “Mom, I don’t think I’m quite sure on what to do with this.”
But they both learned how to make their frybread. (chuckles)
Karasik: Yes.
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Estrada: That’s something that was stuck with them, and that was there. So―
Karasik: Yeah. I think it’s really interesting how throughout the decades, if you will, it’s been
sort of not in fashion―
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: ―to look at your culture. Now, it’s very much in fashion.
Estrada: Land acknowledgment, right now, is one of the big things. And so, you’ll hear that
when you go to different, um, occasions, or different presentations. They’ll say, “We want to
acknowledge that we are on Native land.” We want to―
Karasik: Absolutely.
Estrada: ―you know. That’s more going on now, and you see that in their speeches. Whereas you
didn’t see that before.
Karasik: Absolutely. I–I find that in–in, just when I’m on a Zoom―in fact, my name―and then I
put what city I’m in, and then I put what stolen lands that I occupy. Be―
Estrada: Mm-hmm. Right now, we’re on (gestures quotes with her fingers)
Karasik: Kume―
Estrada: ―Native land. We’re on Ku―we’re―well, yes. We’re not on Kumeyaay land. We’re
on―we’re in between, now. It’s between the Luseño and the Kumeyaay area.
Karasik: And so, Luseño is sort of the umbrella of the six or seven tribes―
Estrada: Seven tribes.
Karasik: ―that you were talking about. And the recognition―are there certain aspects of it from
the government or from the tr–tribe itself?
Estrada: Government.
Karasik: From the government.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: So, the tribes, for sure, recognize you, but it’s some kind of a governmental
requirements to―
Estrada: Yeah. There’s a lot of r–there’s a lot of red tape, you may as well say―
Karasik: Right, right.
Estrada: ―that you have to jump through.
Karasik: And–and is―
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Estrada: You have to have proof of being a government from a–for a period of time. And so,
that’s one of the things.
Karasik: Of being like a sovereign―
Estrada: Mm-hmm.
Karasik: ―nation or–or―
Estrada: Yeah.
Karasik: You know.
Estrada: Where you have a―where you do things then. So, you’ll find if they’re doing any
activities, you’ll find people that are recording that, so they’ll have a recording of what’s going
on now. And―
Karasik: Documentation―
Estrada: ―documentation of all of that.
Karasik: ―every―Right.
Estrada: Going back to when we were talking about the basket weaving, we do a lot of things
with the–the schools now. And so then, before we start with that, we tell them where we’re from.
Yes, we know that this part―now, like when we went to do it at San Diego State. Yes, we are on
Kumeyaay land right now. We were invited to do this. And what we use for the schools is a
Cherokee style. And so, we were given permission from Tekua, so that it was–would be
available. Giving―I don’t want to say permission―I want to say you recognize where
everything came from. You don’t say it’s yours if it’s not yours.
Karasik: So, there’s a respect for the origin of it, and then there’s also a–a, like you said, a
recognition or a–um, yeah. I–I’m–I’m thinking of so many things. I–You said “tekua.” Is that
some organization, or what―
Estrada: It’s the Cherokee, Cherokee band.
Karasik: Oh! Okay. And who’s that umbrella?
Estrada: Cherokee.
Karasik: Ok. And then Tekua is underneath―
Estrada: Yeah. They’re part of the Cherokee.
Karasik: ―that. And then are they a little bit more going east, like to Arizona? Or are they―
Estrada: No. They’re, um, more, um, Oklahoma area.
Karasik: Oh, right. Okay.
Estrada: In that area.
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Karasik: Okay. Um, oh, there’s just so much there. And you’ve really been wonderful to kind of
branch into some of the questions that I wanted to ask you. Um, I think I–I want you to tell me
how you feel about doing this oral history, and how important it is. What–what are–what kinds
of things do you want our descendants to know, and how important will that be for–for them, and
that’s why we’re doing this oral history. And then, maybe you can add in there some of your
accomplishments, if there’s any regrets that you might have had, um, and kind of how your life
path has changed, I think more since your retirement, and how that feels for you to, um, be more
involved and have that pride and want to really pass that on and tell this story.
Estrada: Well, it’s interesting, because I do have two twenty-year-old grandchildren, a sixteenyear-old, and a six-year-old, and trying to make them understand their heritage at the same time.
And so, yes, I’m doing that with them, but I hope that other people are letting their children
know about their culture and heritage, no matter what culture and heritage it is. And, um, having
the pride, not hiding yourself. And it’s important to know that one of the things that—I mean,
San Marcos―I have to say. I don’t live in San Marcos. I lived in San Marcos at one time. I did
after I was married. Also, I lived there for a short time before we moved into Escondido and then
Vista. So, we’ve lived in North County. But it’s always had a place in my heart. And the people
are just so interested in what everybody else is doing. I grew up in this area being friends with
people from the egg ranch—Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch—and just having, you know, and like all
those race horses over here on the other side, and then the farmers on the other side. So, it was a
big diverse. And I need to have my boys tell their kids that there’s more to it than Minecraft on
the computer.
Karasik: Uh, absolutely.
Estrada: And so―
Karasik: So, when you said egg ranch, it was like, “oh, there’s probably a whole story there.” So,
some of those, the egg ranch and the others that you will mention, they’re still here. So that’s―
Estrada: (shakes her head).
Karasik: Oh, they’re not. Oh.
Estrada: C.S.U. S.M. was–is built―
Karasik: On―
Estrada: ―on the egg ranch, on Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch.
Karasik: Oh! On all those lands. How was that?
Estrada: It was hard at first.
Karasik: Were there burial grounds there as well―
Estrada: Um, probably.
Karasik: ―that we know of?
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Estrada: No. Probably, probably. In the extension that they were building at San Marcos High
School, they’re–in where they’re working, where the construction is now, there will be a lot of
orange fencing. In the Creek Project in San Marcos, too, there’s a lot of orange fencing, because
that’s all—the Natives lived along the water source, and I know that my mom’s aunts worked
and–and my mom—I don’t think my mom’s mother did but—my mom’s aunts were in a lot of
those camps, cooking for the people that were, you know, working on, or living in these areas, or
working in these areas.
Karasik: Yeah. I’m curious there, because I–I know back, you know, pre-modern technology,
they often moved because first they respected the land. And there were different growing periods
and animals. There are all kinds of reasons that they would move. And so, that would be then
sometimes how the women might go there and then support that, or―
Estrada: Ours went–Our tribe went from the ocean to the mountains, because they would go up
in the mountains and collect the acorns and so forth. But my grandfather’s father was a sheep
herder.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Estrada: And he would–would go up in that area. His―My grandmother’s brothers were miners
and helped at the mining area in the Pala area. So, you know there was this way, and this way.
San Luis Rey Mission is built on our Indian village site. The, um―they were given the
opportunity to move up to the mountains or just spread (indicates spreading out in groups with
her hands) and diverse themselves, and that’s what they did. A lot of them went into the farming
and into construction and things like that.
Karasik: So, you heard about your mother’s mother and father, or your–even like your husband’s
parents and grandparents. Those were just stories that were kind of passed down. Do you feel―
Estrada: It’s all oral story.
Karasik: Yeah. And–and so that oral history, you―
Estrada: Is important.
Karasik: ―Absolutely.
Estrada: It’s not all recorded, except (points to her head) up here now.
Karasik: And that’s a lot why we’re doing it here.
Estrada: That’s a big reason why I’m very into what’s going on right now. Yes.
Karasik: And I think you’ve done a fantastic job.
Estrada: Oh.
Karasik: We could go on and on. I also think it’s ironic that, um, Cal State San Marcos, who’s
doing this project, is on that land.
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Estrada: Mm-hmm.
Karasik: So, in a way, it is–they are giving back.
Estrada: They’re sharing.
Karasik: Which is–is really good.
Estrada: The best part of this whole thing is this “site” (gestures air quotes) that we’re in today
was actually on the elementary school that I went to. It was our cafeteria.
Karasik: This specific building?
Estrada: This specific building. It was our cafeteria, and we had our (gestures quotes with her
hands) “dances” inside this building. We did our choir from the stage.
Karasik: This stage?
Estrada: This stage. The only thing that’s different about it now is there used to be a kitchen
connected. Because when we were in maybe fourth grade up, you could be a–you could be a
cafeteria helper.
Karasik: Sure.
Estrada: And, um, you’d help serve at the lunch line, and I did that. But it―
Karasik: It’s interesting. When you said “dancing.” So, it was okay to dance. And that dancing,
was it more like “American culture?” Or was―
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: It was.
Estrada: Yes. It had nothing to do–do (shaking her head) with the Natives at all.
Karasik: Okay.
Estrada: Mm-hmm.
Karasik: Yeah. Um, I could talk about that, but this is your story.
Estrada: (laughs)
Karasik: Um, so, I’m thinking there’s not very many regrets. It sounds like you’ve really had a
wonderful life.
Estrada: I think after my retirement, um, I became more involved and then it made me feel even
more proud of my heritage.
Karasik: Yes.
Estrada: And then the–on top of that, um, I made a lot of connections to different family
members and my husband’s family, and trying to get that all focused on, so that I could
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intermingle that so I could pass that on to my boys who could pass it on to their children. And I
really feel that by doing things like this and coming out and talking about it―I know that when I
first started, Diania would say, “Let’s go.” Okay. I’d go and I’d stand in the background. Well, I
listened a lot. Well, that’s how I learned my Spanish in the first place, because my grandfather
sold to―he sold the rabbits and the guy that came to pick up the rabbits couldn’t speak English
and he would speak Spanish to him. And here would be Roberta by his side. So, I mean, he was
one of the influential people, I’m learning, that second language that was so important in this
area. But, um, now I’m interested in trying to pick up the Luseño language, the Chamteela. I
can’t even say it. Because we’re called the Payómkawichum, which are the people of the west.
And so, it goes all along the western coast and in–into the mountain.
Karasik: And is there anyone still around―
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: ―to teach some of that?
Estrada: Yes. I have to take my time and go to those classes.
Karasik: So―
Estrada: Right now, they’re just starting some Zoom classes for―they called it for the young
people. But there’s a lot of people that want to learn it beyond that. So, we’ll see what happens.
But they’re doing them on Zoom right now.
Karasik: You―
Estrada: Because you need to hear it.
Karasik: I’m sure, yes.
Estrada: You need to hear it. You can’t do it from the book―
Karasik: You have to―
Estrada: ―and read it. And, um, I’ve got several little kid’s books that I’ve gotten from my
grandkids that have the English on one side and the Luseño language on the other side and yes,
you can do it that way, but you still don’t hear the correct pronunciation.
Karasik: Yeah. That’s really important. The–it’s–I’m feeling like in some ways it’s full circle.
You know. It’s coming back full circle, and now a–a–the pride is really more known amongst―
Estrada: I think it’s more evident now and you can feel it.
Karasik: And even outside of your culture.
Estrada: Yeah, you can see it coming back. Because looking out at the people that were sitting at
the City Hall last night, and them paying attention to what was being said about our culture,
about ourselves, by the captain at the time. Mel was talking and you just look out at the people
and you could see them really into what was being said about what was going on there, so―
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Karasik: That must feel wonderful.
Estrada: Yeah. And so, I mean, it makes you feel. I told them that. I told somebody else, after the
Dia de Los Muertos thing last night. I just go, “You know, I really feel very proud to be part of
this group.” And it ma–it makes you feel like―
Karasik: Right.
Estrada: ―you’re doing something good.
Karasik: Absolutely. I’m so happy for you.
Estrada: (chuckles)
Karasik: And so, I guess, um, in closing, obviously if there’s anything else that you’d really like
to say, but I feel like we’ve had a–a really wonderful conversation. And I hope you do as well.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: But if you―you know, there’s a lot of work done now too, around, beyond the veil.
Like people have passed and sometimes people want to get in touch with them, or wish that they
could have, you know, tell―
Estrada: Conversations.
Karasik: Right! And so, if you had that―if some of our–your descendants had the opportunity to
talk with you, which is a lot of what this will be for them―
Estrada: Oh, yes.
Karasik: ―what–what would you tell them that is most important, the things that they should
really pay attention to, and the things that don’t be so concerned with. Like, what’s the most
important thing, particularly involving your culture and how they want to live their lives that–
that honors your–your history, your heritage.
Estrada: I would say―well, I do this to my boys right now. I tell them, you know, “You need to
live your life like you feel. But you also need to remember and respect all the adults.” I mean, as
we were raising the two boys, Richard and I did not allow them to speak out of turn to–to them.
Not to say harsh things or anything like that. And I think that that’s fallen away right now. And
that’s really something important that needs to be brought back, is the respect for your ancestors.
Whether they be living or not. And I hope that this is one of the programs that shows the
importance of the lives of people that have been and what they’ve gone through. I mean,
nothing’s been real easy for me, but I have to say that with the support that you have, no matter
where it comes from, it’s important that they pick it up.
Karasik: And how important that support was in your life. Had you been, for example, stayed
back in Wisconsin―although they have some pretty strong tribal activities―
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Estrada: I have―my dad has got a brother-in-law that his whole family, all his nieces and
nephews, are really into it. But it’s not a―I guess it’s because it’s not immediately connected.
Maybe that’s what it is? I mean “in bloodline” means nothing. Or how much blood―”quantum”
does not mean anything. It means–what means something–what should mean something to them
is that they were related to someone who spoke up and tried to help others in the area. And that’s
what we’re doing as a tribe, non-federally recognized tribe. Yes, we have a California
recognition, and basically that’s because of water rights. But the Califor–the federally recognized
tribes, some of them, look down on you now. But who’s doing the work? Just keep plugging
along and making sure that you’re doing what you think is best for yourself and your family.
Karasik: That’s beautiful. Who’s doing the work.
Estrada: Yeah.
Karasik: Yes. Well, I think this is probably a good place to stop―
Estrada: Okay.
Karasik: ―all though we could go on. And we’ll see what happens with the archives, and what
else we might want to do. Like, it would be really wonderful to videotape a basket weaving class.
I don’t know if that’s possible. And I’m certainly wanting to attend and–and learn more, but―
Estrada: There will be some on November twelfth. That’s basket weaving.
Karasik: Is that the same day as the Luseño honoring that?
Estrada: (nods)
Karasik: Yes.
Estrada: Yes, it is.
Karasik: Oh, and we didn’t mention, which I thought was so wonderful, that this happens to be
Native American―
Estrada: Native American month.
Karasik: ―American Heritage month. So, we’re celebrating and honoring it.
Estrada: (chuckles)
Karasik: And we have one of the best elders here.
Estrada: Oh, thank you.
Karasik: Oh, that was one question I wanted to ask you. The word “crone,” does that come from
your culture?
Estrada: The what?
Karasik: Crone?
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Estrada: No.
Karasik: Okay. It’s an elder woman. And I’m not really sure where it comes from. I think it
might be Celtic or another matriarchal based culture.
Estrada: Uh-huh.
Karasik: But I think that the respect for the elders in your culture is–is very strong.
Estrada: It’s very strong.
Karasik: And that’s really so important. And that–I think what the children―which you have
shown in your family and with all your–all your relations.
Karasik: Omitaki.
Estrada: (laughs) A lot of them.
Karasik: Yeah. That’s wonderful. Well, thank you so very much.
Estrada: And thank you for having me.
Karasik: Yes, and again this is Roberta Estrada. And we are in San Marcos at the Heritage
Museum here and this is all part of the Cal State San Marcos Archive pro–Oral History program.
Estrada: Oral history.
Karasik: Yes. Thank you very much!
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GLOSSARY
Alvin Dunn School (pg.1)
Cardiff (pg.9)
Caudell, Diania (pg.6)
Chamteela (pg.16)
Creek Project (pg.14)
Dia de Los Muertos (pg.9)
Duenos (pg.2)
Foussat (pg.2)
Frybread (pg. 11)
Indian Rock Road (pg.8)
Kumeyaay (pg.11)
La Mirada Academy (pg.1)
Life Credential (pg.4)
Luseño (pg.10)
Marine Corps Hospital (pg.1)
Mel (pg.17)
Moro Hill (pg.8)
Normal School (pg.4)
Omitaki (pg.19)
Pala (pg.2)
Palomar (pg.4)
Pamu (pg.9)
Pauma (pg.9)
Payómkawichum (pg.16)
Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch (pg.13)
San Jacinto (pg.10)
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San Luis Rey Mission (pg.2)
San Marcos High School (pg.14)
Tekua (pg.12)
Tribal Council (pg.3)
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�
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Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
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Estrada, Roberta. Interview Transcript. November 3. 2022.
Description
An account of the resource
Roberta Estrada is a Luiseño woman from the San Luis Rey Mission Band of Mission Indians. She grew up in Vista, CA and was educated throughout the North County school districts. She attended college, earning both Spanish and General Education degrees. She taught ESL in the San Marcos Unified District for thirty-two years. After retirement, she became more involved in the Indigenous community and learned basketry. She accompanies her cousin, Diania Caudell, on school group presentations and teaches audiences about basket-weaving and native plants. Estrada is proud of her Luiseño heritage, and continues reconnecting with family members and getting involved in Indigenous community activities. Estrada also discusses in her interview, the process of tribal recognition with the United States government, teaching English to Vietnam refugees, and the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch.
This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos.
Creator
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Roberta Estrada
Contributor
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Suzy Karasik
Melissa Martin
Date
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2022-11-03
Subject
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Basket making
Education, ESL
Endemic plants -- Southern California
Luiseño Indians
Refugees -- Vietnam
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San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Roberta Estrada
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Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found.
Type
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text
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EstradaRoberta_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-03_transcript
Community history
Native American experience
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/9173acfb4043d98a992ece390b686936.pdf
745685fd9a5c04a10e7e266af852c2c4
PDF Text
Text
ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Sean Visintainer:
Hello, this is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Major General Anthony Jackson for the California
State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History initiative. Today is March
7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Major General Jackson, thank you
for interviewing with us today.
Anthony Jackson:
Yeah, you're welcome. It's a, it's a privilege, kind of a, an honor, I guess I should say.
Visintainer:
These are, uh, the favorite part of my job that I get to do. So it's a real pleasure to have you. I forgot to
mention that I will take some notes as we're interviewing, just so you know.
Jackson:
Sure.
Visintainer:
So I can circle back to questions if I have them.
Jackson:
All right.
Visintainer:
Uh, things like that. And I wanted to just start off by asking you about your childhood and your formative
years.
Jackson:
Yeah.
Visintainer:
Um, where were you born?
Jackson:
I was born at Madigan General Hospital in Fort Lewis, Washington. My father was a career soldier. So I
was the fourth of his children. Uh, let's see. And being a military brat, you grow up in a lot of different
places. But, uh, yeah, my dad, uh, he lied about his age and lied about his parentage to join the army
shortly after Pearl Harbor. He met his, my mother in, May of [19]42, and married her in June of the same
year. And then he went overseas to Europe for, for three years. In those days they went for the duration
and came home to see my, uh, oldest sister was three years old when he got home.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
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And then, my older brother was born in [19]46, and then Matt, and then Don was born in [19]48, and
then I was born in [19]49, and the Korean War broke out so my mother got a break.
Visintainer:
Yeah. <laughs>.
Jackson:
And dad came home in [19]52, and <laughs> Clay was born in [19]53. And then Dana was born in, uh,
[19]56, and Tawnya was born in [19]57. I guess they're Irish twins. And that was the last of the kids. But
if you notice, I was seven. The girls, Betty is the oldest, and Tanya the youngest. And then there's five
boys, and I'm the top dead-center.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
Uh, and, uh, highly competitive sports-oriented family with the boys. And, uh, I guess I should say that
the main thing in that growing up was, I was kind of taking notes and reviewing my own life a couple
weeks ago; that I started school in Germany, did kindergarten and first grade in Germany, and then my
dad got stationed in Los Angeles. So I, uh, <Visintainer coughs> spent the second grade in Los Angeles.
Then I spent the third grade-- He got sent someplace else, spent the third grade in Houston, Texas, his
hometown. And then I spent four through the seventh grade in Colorado at two different schools. And
then back to Texas for the eighth <laughs>. And then in the middle of the ninth grade, a couple months
into the ninth grade, we moved to California in 1963 as uh, and all my teachers in Texas were excited. I
was going to such a great state for academics. And so I got here in October [19]63 as a ninth grader, as
the brand new kid talking funny, dressing, funny and-Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Fighting my way through the ninth grade. But, so I was fortunate to go to high school in Oakland. You
know that they have three-year high school. So all my high school years, I was the first of my brothers
and sisters. If you'll see those days, you'll see that they got ripped off <laughs> and didn't go to one
single high school, my older one. So I was the first one that kind of got planted at one place.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And then, um, and that was really good because counselors and everybody started prepping me for
college. Uh, Mrs. [Phyllis] Collier wouldn't let me go. She constantly -- she was my counselor -constantly tried to get me into college prep classes, which she did, and make me take the SATs. You're
not going to the state wrestling finals unless you take the SATs. And, uh, and that was a good
experience. Yeah. Football became my, uh, my great love of sports, although played a lot of baseball,
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basketball, and all those kinds of things, wrestled in high school. But I got a football scholarship, offered
several scholarships. I was lucky to be... I was born at exactly the right time. You know, the high, the civil
rights movement, the, all the sacrifices of so many people during the Civil Rights Movement. When I
graduated from high school in 1967, universities were looking for me in terms of race, in terms of
athleticism, in terms of grades and SATs.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And I just happened to be born at that exact right juncture of the civil rights movement and who could
get that young African American into the university. But I took a football scholarship <laughs>, because I
knew that was just based on pure athleticism or whatever.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
But it was still important. That was, the doors were opening wide, and I just happened to be the right
age, born at right time as well. So that was my kind of through high school, uh, living in a lot of different
places. Three years in Germany, four years in Colorado, off and on in Texas. And so, um, with mom and
dad always providing a good solid family basis, and my mother was incredibly, like, I still look back and,
you know here I was a high-ranking officer, [inaudible] and having two kids was expensive. <laughs>
Here my dad was a sergeant in the army, not an officer.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And he, and somehow she managed to put together great meals that we were all healthy and athletic
and all that. And I still wonder how she did it. It was pretty-- she was pretty fantastic. She sewed our
clothes and did all kinds of things that, you know sometimes I see the kids walking around here with
patches and torn jeans and all that.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
That would've been so embarrassing for my family. <laughter> We were, we were poor, you know,
<laughs> and here these kids, I guess middle class kids that, that wanted to look like that <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
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Jackson:
We would've been totally embarrassed. And mom would sew up those torn spots.
Visintainer:
You said she was, uh, she managed to make great meals for everybody in your family.
Jackson:
Yeah.
Visintainer:
I was curious, is there a, is there a, a particular meal or food that really evokes memories of your
childhood?
Jackson:
I would say that we ate a lot of cooked cereal.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
You know, things like cornmeal and oatmeal and grits and yeah. And, um, it was because it was
inexpensive and filled with nutrition.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
I presume and it filled you up, you know? And so, uh, yeah. And you never turned your back on your
plate.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Spaghetti and meatballs, you turn your back <laughs>. One of those meatballs was gonna be missing you
know, <laughs>. I mean, you never missed dinner. You never missed a meal. You were always home. You
didn't wear a watch. You didn't have a watch, but you knew what dinnertime was.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
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And you knew, you knew that, uh, you know, to be home for dinner. Um, so my mother was a, just a
great cook. And, uh, and I just remember that there was always a meal, uh, sometimes they were pretty
creative.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Like, she would make syrup out of, uh, out of sugar and water, and she'd just melt it down. And that
would be the syrup for your pancakes.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
You know, she didn't, orange juice, you know, if the can said "mix three cans of water with this," she'd
probably mix four, four or five you know, stretching things out. She could do that. But, uh... Man, she-Yeah, you would never turn down one of her meals. I would just say that, uh, everything she cooked was
worthy of eating.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Except turnips. <laughter>
Visintainer:
So that was the, that was the vegetable. That was-Jackson:
Yeah, that was the one. I mean I liked all the other green vegetables and stuff like that. But I never
really, I was kind of amazed when I was being recruited. I was being recruited to play football at UC
[University of California] Berkeley. And, um, they brought me into the Bear's Lair, Bear's Lair, their kind
of campus restaurant. And they put a salad in front of me, a green salad with just lettuce-Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And I said, what <laughs>, what am I supposed to do with this?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
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Jackson:
Because I'd never had a lettuce salad that I could ever have recalled. So I had to watch, uh what the
coaches who were recruiting me were doing with that <laughs>, 'cause our meals were substantial. And
[inaudible] they were designed to fill you up, you know?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
As a kid more than anything. Yeah.
Visintainer:
Did, uh, did you live on bases?
Jackson:
Yeah. We s-- you know, um... We, we, we lived on and off base. The military, it wasn't until my time in
the military, the military used to be when you got stationed overseas, families had to move off the base
housing.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And it was in my times in, I think in the, uh, I want to say in the 1980s, that even though your, uh, spouse
was overseas, you could stay on base, uh, at least in the Marine Corps. But we lived, um, sometimes
we'd stay a while with relatives. But my mother was from Salt Lake City, Utah. And so we would
sometimes stage there for a couple months before we went overseas or before we went to California or
something like that. And, but, let's see, on-- in Germany, yeah, all that time was on military base.
Colorado was four years on military base. Oakland, the first couple of years we lived on a military base,
but my dad also kept a little home in Houston, Texas. And a couple of times we would move into that
house. And uh, but when he retired from the Army when I was a senior in high school, he bought a
home in Oakland.
Visintainer:
Okay.
Jackson:
And that was my senior year so that was the first year I had moved up in the pecking order to get a
bedroom by myself. 'Cause we usually lived in a three-bedroom house, one [bedroom] for mom and
dad, one for the two girls and then the last one, <laughs> was either for my older brother, if it was small.
And we, like in Colorado the older brother had a room, and then the four younger ones slept in the
basement.
Visintainer:
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Yeah.
Jackson:
In bunk beds, right?
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And then finally when I was a senior, I got a room to myself for a few months when <laughs>, you know,
so, um--But we settled, the family settled in Oakland. And that's where my mother and father lived until
they passed away. And, uh, they-- so it was, uh, the military bases are sort of protected in some ways
from-Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
A little bit different than society, you know. And then even as I went through my career, we stayed on
bases sometimes. Not always.
Visintainer:
Uh, you said that the military bases are protected and different from society.
Jackson:
Yeah. Its-- They're, they're a little bit different-Visintainer:
Could you explain-Jackson:
Because first of all, I'll never forget, like when we were stationed in Hawaii, and my kids were like six
months old when we got there, and two years old. So they were pretty young. But by the time they
were there, we were there for a year or two. The military police knew where your kids belong. They
knew what house. If they saw your kid running amuck someplace, "Yeah, maybe you had to go back to
your yard," you know, because-- And so from that standpoint, and military police are a different sort of
presence. They're more like the old neighborhood police officers. They're Marines essentially. And now
they have some civilians that do that on military bases. The other thing is: all your neighbors, you're all
in the same boat <laughs>. You know, you're gonna say, although, you know, you have sometimes
segregated housing based on rank. Um, um, and they [military bases] have their elementary school, they
have their grocery stores. They have their equivalent of a Walmart or 7-Eleven. They have their gas
stations, their fire department, the hospital. So you have a city, literally, or maybe even several towns,
like as big as Camp Pendleton is, there are several schools in like the northern part. Once you get to high
school, uh, and junior high, you go to San Clemente Public Schools.
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Visintainer:
Okay.
Jackson:
On the, on the eastern side, where I lived on the base, or southeastern side, you go to Fallbrook schools
and on the south side of the base, you go to Ocean-- your kids go to Oceanside schools. So, uh, but, um,
everybody's employed, you know?
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
There is a hierarchy, you know. If you're-- That is respected. Kids stop when they're hearing the national
anthem is being played every morning at eight o'clock. If they're at the playground in the morning at
eight o'clock, or when the flag's coming down in the evening at sunset, they'll stop. And you'll see
kindergarteners stand in position of attention, while getting off the swings and the teeter-totter or
whatever they call them now. And uh, it's kind of unique. Even my Great Dane used to know to stop and
sit when the national anthem was being played <laughs>, you know, just-- So it's a, and race is erased.
Mostly. I mean we're all a product of American society.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Um, um, and it's more, I would say it's more of a meritocracy in terms of what you experience and how
you experience, and your rank and your uniform automatically entitles you to X amount of respect. And
everybody rec-- and that includes the general has to respect the most junior person, you know. And so
uh, you're somewhat protected and there's rules that are, that are pretty strict, you know? And even
the, even the nurses in the emergency room got to know my sons <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
"Hey, Brian, what are you in here for this time?" You know <laughs>. He's a skateboarder. Bashed his
skull, skinned his face, you know, all of that stuff. And they know him. "Uh, okay. You're a Jackson kid. All
right. Okay."
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm. Do you, do you think that that experience was similar for your father?
Jackson:
No my dad, he lived a whole different world.
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Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
He's one of the stage setters. When he, when he was 17 years old, trying to get into the military in 1942,
Marines didn't accept Blacks into the military. It wasn't until a year later, you know. And he lived in
Texas, you know, grew up in Texas. And in his youth and for a long time, even through a portion of my
youth, Texas was one of the most violent places to be African American. I mean I had a, I had one of my
Marines, a master gunnery sergeant, a very senior enlisted Marine, who was my senior enlisted advisor.
And he's a Texan, African American. And his father was lynched in Texas. And so what's your, um-- You
know, so there's, there's, there's only a generation or two that separates you from that kind of conduct.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And when my dad joined the Army, it was segregated. Matter of fact, he was stationed at Fort Douglas
in Salt Lake City, 'cause that's where one of the last of the Buffalo Soldiers were stationed at, at, at, um,
even at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century, the Buffalo Soldiers had been stationed at Fort Douglas
in Salt Lake City. And so when they started bringing in African Americans into the US Army for World
War II, that became a place where they trained. And so they didn't have a USO [United Service
Organization], they had a USO for white soldiers, but they didn't even have a USO for Black soldiers. So
in creating a USO for Black soldiers, now they recruited my mother <laughs>, you know, to be one of the
hostesses. And that's how they met. And within two weeks they were married. Geez.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And they stayed married, you know. Um, so. And dad, I am sure when I see, you know, I think he was
extraordinarily smart, extraordinarily clever. And you had to be more clever to survive, I think, in those
days, because there were a lot of racial booby traps that you could walk into. And I think that, um, I
don't know all of the history of that, but he should have been, with the number of years he spent in, 24
years, he should have been a higher rank in most circumstances. And I won't recall what the family's
story is as to why, but I have pictures of him at a higher rank.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And then he retired at another rank, lowered, 10 years later, you know. So he was, so there was an
incident that occurred, I think, with my older brother, Matt. And he was, an officer had bumped him on
his bicycle and knocked him to the ground and knocked a tooth out, and when my dad was called to the
scene, this is more family lore, the officer used the N-word in referring to my, my brother. And the
officer was white, and my dad reflexively hit him. And he was a master sergeant at the time. And, uh,
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
this was when we lived in Germany. And my dad was a prize fighter too. He was really good. At one time
he was, uh, rated in the world and he was an alternate on the 1948 Olympic team as a light
heavyweight. And, um, and so, uh... But the army liked him enough to keep him, but they had to do
something. And so he became reduced in rank by one and then permanently put in that rank.
Jackson:
And he stayed in that rank for another, I want to say twelve years, which is not normal.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Even today or yesteryear, that wouldn't have been normal. So they liked him, but they [inaudible]. So he
paid a price that I could-- I didn't pay. And when I joined the Marine Corps, <laughs>, I'll never forget
what him saying, "Why did you want to join that redneck outfit?" Because remember, in [19]42, they
wouldn't take, they took a lot of, and it was [19]43, they had their first [Black] officer, they had their first
[Black] pilot in about 1950, first general African American in 1981, Frank Petersen. So it's uh, it was kind
of a, you know, my, my my answer to him was, if not me, who? Somebody has to be.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
I was not the first but I was one of the few at the time that came in. And General Petersen leading the
way, of course. But yeah, dad had a different life. Mom had a different life. She, I mean education, that
was the key difference. You know, is that I was fortunate my mother and father were both high school
grads and both of them believed in the power of education. So that was, I think it was really vital to the
development of all of us. And then coming to California, which when I came here, it was the number one
best school system, public school system in the nation. And I don't know-- If I understand, it doesn't rank
very high now, but when I came here, the, you know, from the high school to the community colleges, to
the state colleges and state universities, uh, it couldn't be better. So another lucky break for Tony
Jackson.
Visintainer:
Yeah. <Jackson laughs> Um, you mentioned your dad grew up in Texas.
Jackson:
Yeah.
Visintainer:
And he had kept a house there for quite a while.
Jackson:
Right.
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Visintainer:
Was he particularly, uh, happy when he got stationed in Houston?
Jackson:
You know, that's something that I would've been too young. He was, he wasn't stationed in Houston. He
was stationed in another-- at, uh, Fort Hood, which is outside [Houston]. I don't think that-- he never
expressed that. And I was too young if he, if he emoted it to my mother, you know? That was, that
would've been grown-up talk back in those days.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
But Houston was segregated. It was, the schools were segregated. It was kind of ironic because I'd lived
on army bases. I'd done most of my-- Up until the time we moved to Texas, when I was in the third
grade, I did kindergarten, first grade in Germany at integrated school, at the military school on base. And
then we came out to California. But that was a short stay. But I did second grade in integrated schools.
Then all of a sudden, in third grade, I'm in this town and the part of town where dad had a house,
everybody's Black, the policeman's Black, the pharm is Black, the teachers and principals, they're all
Black. And that was the first, you know, uh, 1958. And, uh, it was, uh, it was very interesting. Corporal
punishment, <laughs>. That's the first time I met that one too.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Where the teachers could paddle you? Yeah. You, they, they, they still did that. I remember getting my
hand paddled because my writing was so poor <laughs>. Um, but, um... So we moved there [Houston]
because he did not want us probably to live in the part of Texas where that base was, and close to
relatives. He had a, uh, his, his half-sister lived there, the aunt that helped raise him lived in Houston.
And so, and his father lived in Houston. And so, uh, we lived there just a half mile or so from his sister
and my aunt, Juanita. And so, uh... And he never gave any indication that he wanted, um, wanted to live
there permanently in Houston. You know, I mean, the movie theaters, in those days, you had to sit in
the balcony, even the beaches were s-- you know, they had a rope. This was for white people. This was
for Black people. Don't cross the rope. The drinking. I remember as a 13 year-old doing a sit-in, in the
eighth grade, when we moved back there the second time, the civil rights movement was pretty
churned up. And young people, high school, college were doing sit-ins at, uh, at the drug stores that
didn't allow you to sit at the soda fountains. You might be able to buy something there, but don't sit
down at the counter. And I remember myself from a couple of my eighth and ninth grade buddies, we
decided, we were waiting for a bus, and we wanted a RC Cola and a moon pie.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
And we walked into the local drugstore to buy 'em, and we decided we were gonna sit at the lunch
counter, like all these kids were doing around the nation. So we did our little sit-in, and they, this big old
guy comes out from somewhere in the warehouse, and he's pounding on a billy club, like, "Hmm, what
are you kids doing?" But he didn't say anything to us, just the, the waitress behind the counter. She was
very nervous trying to get us to get up. And we looked over and saw him and just waved. And then our
bus came and we walked out. But it was our little, that was our little act of defiance. And every now and
then, you'd have to say if not me who? And so we sat at a lunch counter for a while, you know.
Visintainer:
So I had seen it in another interview. You'd referenced this, uh, lunch counter sit-in. Uh, didn't go into
detail. And so I wanted to ask you a few questions about it. So it was, uh, it was totally spontaneous?
You were-Jackson:
Yeah. It was spontaneous. We, it was, it was in the news. People were doing it in Virginia, in Memphis,
and, you know, and it was a, you knew there was a kind of a hazard you could end up, you know, uh... in
jail or something, you know. But we just, I think there's been a couple of times where I've been involved
in civil rights protests, but where you just have to do something, you know. I mean, I mean, you just-- I
watched my older sister, probably one of the greatest acts of defiance that I've ever seen: my older
sister, Betty, she's 80 years old yesterday, and she's just as tough as she was when she was. But I was
riding a bus with her in Houston, and this was in the fifties too, so it had to be about [19]58. And we
were riding across town, heading home, and we, we sat right in front of the bus. Whether she was
thinking, you know... You got to, she's, she's a pretty feisty little-- and then she would've only been
about 13 or 14, and I would've been third grade. And, so we sat in the front of the bus, and the bus
driver stopped, and the bus was crowded, and he wanted-- bus driver stopped and came out, told her
she had to get up, go back of the bus and let these white people sit down. And I'm like, "Hmm." I'm only
nine years old. So I'm like, hmm, this big old guy is <Jackson gestures>. And then she refused to move.
And, um... And then he balled up his fist and he threatened her, and she refused to move. And, uh, and
she just sat there, and then he had to go drive that bus <laughs>, and he left her alone the rest of the
ride. She never budged.
Visintainer:
That's very courageous.
Jackson:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the way she is. And so you, you know, I've seen, and, you know you grew up
with those pictures on tv, the Birmingham and all that stuff, and Little Rock and, bombings and kids
with-- and so you knew that there was this tension. But like I tell people, and I gave a speech the other
day for Black History. I was always a person that took literally the words of the, the, the preamble to the
Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Gettysburg Address. And I remember I had to
memorize the preamble in the Gettysburg Address and the first couple of paragraphs of the Declaration
of Independence when I was in segregated schools in Houston, Texas, in the ninth grade. And I took
those words literally.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
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TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Jackson:
And I looked at my dad's service, and he had obviously paid a, you know, paid for his citizenship,
wearing that uniform for 24 years. And so I always have had the feeling and, uh, that, "Hey, if you're, if
you're better than me, that means you can whip me in the football field or wrestling, or you can beat me
on the spelling bee or the math bee or something like that. But you don't automatically get that
<laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
That's not an automatic. <laughs> I walk through the door like you walk through the door, and then we'll
see how it goes.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And, uh, and I guess that's, I even, uh, even in my own career, I kept that same kind of attitude. And you
know, and I've got deep roots that in terms of where my family comes from, especially on my mother's
side. My wife does these great genealogies. And, I actually book brought the book that she has kind of
put together. Rather than just a photo album, she puts together genealogical albums, and they're kind
of cool.
Visintainer:
Nice.
Jackson:
I'll show you at some point if you want to see it.
Visintainer:
Yeah, I'd love to.
Jackson:
Yeah. But, so, but, you know. One of the things I do tell people, sometimes younger people is that, we
like to say that we're all born equal. And that's a kind of an idealistic sort of thing. But if your mother
was a drug addict and you were born addicted, you're not the same as the guy who's like, my kids, you
know, their dad was already an officer, and already was financially stable, their mother was healthy, a
registered dietician, and what she did during her pregnancy is very different than what this-- And so the
kids start out equal in terms of under whatever your religion is, under your god's eye, maybe they're
equal, but in terms of what the world's offering 'em right now, real different. Okay. And so things like
race-- and so I say, "Everybody's born with a backpack, and in that backpack is X amount of rocks." And
it's a little bit different, what the weight is at birth. Now, as you go through life, you can take out a rock
or you can add a rock. Some of 'em are based on choices of, of your own choice. And some of 'em are
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
based on family choices or just accidents. And race is one of those things that can either be, um, a rock,
a heavy rock in your pack. Or it can lighten your load. And that's one of the ironic things about it is for
my dad, it was probably a heavier rock, but for me, it lightened the load. It might have actually lightened
the load, you know? And so as we-- As you-- And so as a result of that, his carrying a heavy rock and me
having much lighter load, I owe him something. But more than that, I owe the next generation
something too for that. And, you know, does that make sense?
Visintainer:
Yeah, that's a wonderful analogy. And something I've never heard phrased that way.
Jackson:
Yeah.
Visintainer:
And I think it's, it's uh, befitting somebody who was in the military to talk about <Jackson laughs> weight
and backpacks.
Jackson:
Yeah, right, yeah. <laughter>, I guess, so <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Did you come up with the analogy when you were in the military,?
Jackson:
Yeah. Yeah, probably. I did. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. I was in you know, it is, uh, it's -- life is like that.
Now, and you, and a lot of times, and once you get to be a certain age, and I was telling this young man
that I met, he was very bold. He was in the high school, junior ROTC [Reserve Officers Training Corps] at
an event a month or so ago, and he walks right up to me having, I was introduced as a general.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And here's this, you know, maybe 14 year-old kid. He was in the ninth grade. And I said, "You know
what?" I said, uh, I asked him about his grades and all that. I said kind of, "You're lightening your load.
You're an honor student. You wear that uniform well. You're doing athletics, keep doing that. Everything
you do, it counts from the ninth grade on. I mean, that's when you're getting your GPA counts, you
getting your PSATs, you're doing all these kinds of things that people are gonna judge your next
opportunity on -- post high school." And says, "So, you young man are lightening your load, you know,
so keep it going."
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Transcribed by
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TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Jackson:
Yeah. So it is kind of a, yeah. I guess it's military <laughs> speak. Can't help it <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah. Um, I just had one follow up question about, uh, about your drugstore sit-in. Well, actually, I guess
I had a couple. What was the drugstore?
Jackson:
You know, I'm trying to remember the, because I don't want to-- we had a lot of Walgreens in that part
of the country. So I think it was Walgreens at the time, that, uh, it was right at our bus stop. And, uh,
yeah. Then they, they became quite a target for students, you know?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
It's a, nowadays they don't even have the soda fountains in the drugstore like they did in those days, you
know? But yeah, I'm pretty, I'm about 90% sure it was Walgreens. Because number one, because I don't
remember any other of the drug stores that were there. And it was, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But-Visintainer:
Did, uh, did you ever tell your parents?
Jackson:
Yeah. Well, at that time, dad was someplace else. I think dad was stationed in close to the North Pole in
Greenland.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
Yeah. And so we were in Houston for that stay. And, um... And I probably told my mother. When I was
that [inaudible] age... I really, it was hard for me to imagine living beyond eighteen.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
We lived in Houston. You know, we lived-- we were bused to school past the white high school and
junior high into what you might call the ghetto. Fifth Ward in Houston. And it was nicknamed "Bloody
Fifth" for good reason, because somebody was getting killed kind of routinely. It was a very violent part
of Houston, Texas. And, uh, my junior high and eighth and ninth grade was in Fifth Ward. And my older
brothers and sister, they went to Phyllis Wheatley [High School]. I went to E.O. Smith [Junior High] which
was named after a African American poet. And, I was probably in a fight, like... I mean, here I was this
Transcribed by
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
guy that didn't have an accent. And I was marked, even my teacher, I remember my English teacher
mocking my, uh, "trying to talk like a Kennedy," she told me. She told the whole class, 'cause I was
reading something and she stopped me. And she, "What are you trying to talk like a Kennedy?" I said,
"This is the way we talk in my family." I didn't know this was any different, but yeah, coming to the
south, you're talking different and you don't have their accent. And, uh, and so I was kind of a prime
target for a while. And yeah. And fortunately I played football and you know, and I had two big bad older
brothers. And so, but it was like-- you know, you had to fight. And then right in the middle of ninth
grade, I moved to Oakland.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Which hardly <laugh>, is just that much better. <Jackson holds up fingers about an inch apart, laughs>
But that was only two fights. So that was quick and easy. And fortunately we were all trained to box and
stuff like that, so it turned out all right. But really when I was fourteen, fifteen, I thought eighteen would
be, "Yeah. Eighteen's about right." You know?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
You know, so you, you, you were already, you know, so when I say I'm <laughs> seventy-three, you
know, I'm a happy camper. <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jackson:
Exceeded expectations. <laughs>. Yeah.
Visintainer:
Um, I was curious about when your, when your father was deployed, you said he was deployed to Korea
and was he deployed in World War II?
Jackson:
He was in World War II, but I was not even born, and so the war, he wasn't deployed. He had seven kids
by the time Vietnam, so the Army wouldn't send him. You know, that would've been quite a burden. So
he did not, well, he served during the Vietnam War in the early stages, he never deployed to Vietnam.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Transcribed by
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
The family member that got deployed to Vietnam was my older brother, Matt.
Visintainer:
Okay.
Jackson:
He was, he was drafted. Uh, and yeah, the way it worked out was that my older sister had graduated
from high school. I ended up being the first one to graduate from college, just 'cause my older sister, it
wasn't the norm or the expectation. And she had gotten married and had a kid, so, and she's probably as
smart or smarter than every one of us. And then Matt, my older brother, there wasn't the financials in
the family and he had gone to [Jackson makes chopping motion with hand] four. Different. High schools.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Every year. And so, although he's a better athlete than I ever was, he was never recognized in one spot,
scouted out by universities or anything. So he ended up going to Chico State [California State University,
Chico] a year later on an English literature scholarship. Um, and because he was a year behind his peers,
he didn't have the college credits necessary to avoid the draft. And so he got drafted.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
And then he goes in the army, goes to Vietnam and gets really some disease and maybe even Agent
Orange. Uh, he-- affected him very badly over there. And so he was medically evacuated from Vietnam
to San Francisco. There was a big army hospital in San Francisco and eventually discharged, got his GI
bill, went back to college, got his B.A., Got his master's degree, and became a dean of students up at
Butte [California] Community College. So he lived a really good life.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Great kids, two outstanding kids. And then a terrific wife, Billie. Billie passed away a couple years ago,
but she's just been selected, gonna have a big induction ceremony through the Chico State Hall of Fame.
And so she, and here's his daughter is the CEO, Joy is the CEO. It's not the GRE but there's another
graduate record thing, you know, and so Matt did well, so. Don, my older brother, short time in the Air
Force, booted him out for whatever he did wrong <laughs>, you know, but I'm the only one that made it
a career [inaudible]. So, uh, um, yeah. But, but mom was always that glue. Just like my wife Sue is the
glue for my boys and who did most of the child raising. I had this big strong boxer-soldier dad that I
really looked up to and was my lifetime hero. But mom was actually doing the hard work.
Visintainer:
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TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
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Yeah.
Jackson:
And probably the same thing in my family in terms of, you know, dad's a Marine and a officer and doing
his thing and going away and, and, but the military spouses who get left behind, they do a lot of the
child raising, set the standards. And so when people say thank you for your service, they really ought to
be talking to the spouses. <laughs>
Visintainer:
Well, and that's something I was kind of curious about in that, when, when somebody's deployed, and if
there's, I guess this is kind of a complicated question that I'm formulating as I go along, so I apologize if it
gets a little jumbled, but when somebody's deployed, like in your father's time, um, were there support
services involved with the Army to help out, to help out the parents that were staying and raising
children? Or were they more informal in nature?
Jackson:
They were very, very, very informal. Not, and I, quite frankly, I can't-- I can't say I have memories of
during my father and mother's time that they had the support services which are ingrained in the
services now. And even when I came in, to be honest, in [19]75, the military's attitude, the Marine
Corps' attitude was probably, well if the, if the Marine Corps wanted you to have a, wanted you to have
a spouse they’d have put her in your, in your sea bag when they issued you the gear. Was that in there?
Okay. <laughs> And that was probably the attitude. It wasn't until the eighties that the Navy and the
Marine Corps, and I'm not quite sure when the Army, but I'm sure about the same time with them, we
started putting together really substantial programs. And first it, it revolved around volunteers and-- but
organized in what they call the Key Volunteer Program. And in the Navy it was the Ombudsman
Program. And, and, and that, and that was in the eighties. And in, in the, in the, um, 2000s, as we were
getting more involved in the Middle East, they actually started hiring family counselors, Members that
take, they literally took the place, for each battalion, they would have professional kind of family
counselors. And so, and they still had the Key Volunteers, but then they paid people and they had, uh, it
was presumed prior to that, that the wives, an officer's wife, the senior officer's wife, would take the
lead whether she was-- wanted to or not. It was, it was presumed that that would happen or the senior
enlisted wife would team up with her and they would take care of all the younger ones and all that. And
there were just some women who were not, you know, not that social or did not want to do that, or
were-- wasn't in their personality. So there was a lot. When I was a young commanding officer, a
company, I knew if I was over in the Far East in Japan or something and with my whole company and
Corporal Ramos' wife was about ready to have a baby here at Camp Pendleton I'd call my wife, buy
some flowers for Corporal Ramos' wife, put his name on 'em and take 'em over to the base hospital and
make sure she knows that he's thinking about her. And my wife was willing to do that, you know?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And so, and I would willingly <laughs> pay for it out of my pocket too.
Visintainer:
Transcribed by
Sean Visintainer
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Yeah.
Jackson:
Uh, but it, it, it's, it is now much more formal and it's expected and it's expected in the military, and now
you have a lot of, we probably have more daycare centers per capita than the, than regular society, you
know? There's, I forget, there's a half a dozen or more daycare centers on Camp Pendleton. Miramar has
theirs all the bases and have the childcare centers. And so I think that there's much more, the military
has taken a, uh, realize happy wife, happy spouse. You're more likely to have a career, [inaudible]
soldier, sailor, marine.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
You're taking care of the family too.
Visintainer:
It makes sense in terms of retention and morale and all of that, yeah.
Jackson:
All of that. You know, one of the things I found is it translates in many ways to combat power. You know
that no matter what happens to you, that your family's gonna be taken care of and you're gonna be
taken care of. And so that's, that gives you strength, that gives every marine, every soldier, every sailor,
that kind of strength. You know that I saw in other foreign armies that you got wounded and you're not
killed you, you [shakes head]. So their soldiers weren't as aggressive.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Uh, they didn't have the same initiative to, you know, and it is not because they were less, you know, a
man or less brave. It's just that they had that, well, there's no VA [Veteran's Administration], there's no,
there's no widow's pension. There's no, you know. And so he's gotta be a little bit more careful, you
know? So-Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
It does equate the combat power.
Visintainer:
I's a, it's a rock in your pack perhaps.
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TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
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Jackson:
Yeah. In terms of success for the mission that you're about ready to accomplish.
Visintainer:
Yeah. Okay. Um, <Visintainer coughs> excuse me, you mentioned the Key Volunteer Program and so I,
so I understand like the, you know, the purpose of a counselor or the purpose of a daycare-Jackson:
Mm-hmm.
Visintainer:
But I was curious as to what the Key Volunteer Program, like what their purpose was, what types of
activities they undertook, and as a support-Jackson:
I, I think the main focus was to make sure if the families had a need, that it was taken care of while the
service member was overseas. And a lot of times the wives would organize parties and picnics for the
kids and, uh, things like that. Or they would exchange phone numbers so that you knew who to call in
case of, you know, <laughs>, there's a rattlesnake in the garage the day after your husband left, you
know, the car broke down <laughs> the day after your husband left. Um, uh, so, but the whole idea of
the Key Volunteer Program was to make sure that the families knew where to go when they needed
support, when the spouse was deployed overseas. Uh, and, uh, and they were literally volunteer in the
most part. In the early days, you didn't get guys, it was mostly the wives, but now we have more you
know, the, the... The military member may be the, the, the, the, the woman and the man is now the
spouse that needs help when-Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And you. And so that was the whole point of the, um, the Key Volunteer Program: to bring them
together, they knew there was a tight-knit family that would help take care of-- It was kind of like, uh,
East Battalion had its own village, you know? And the village was designed to take care of, of all of the
people that were left behind. Yeah.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
So yeah,
Visintainer:
That's, that's pretty interesting. I'd never, never heard of this, uh, program before.
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Jackson:
Yeah. It's a, it's a really good program. They professionalized the lead person at the battalion in about
two thousand and three. A battalion's about a thousand Marines. Like on Camp Pendleton you have
battalions and squadrons. Squadrons is the aviation equivalent of a battalion. And they would all have a
senior lady, and they put, they actually had paid people do that. I think they're maybe toning that down
a little bit with no war, but they still have the program. Uh, um, and, uh, yeah.
Visintainer:
<Visintainer coughs> Excuse me. Um, let's talk about how you decided to enlist. So I understand you
were, you were graduated with a master's [degree] at this point.
Jackson:
Yeah.
Visintainer:
You were working and-Jackson:
Well, let's see. I got married. Sue and I got married. We met at San Jose State [University]. Um, I had
always aspired to be an officer. I thought I'd join the Army when I-- I was in ROTC just for a short while,
at San Jose State in Army ROTC. And, it didn't sit well with all the other things that I was doing. But I still
aspired to be an officer. Okay. I met my wife in an anatomy and physiology class in Spring of 1969. And,
um, and it was a night class, so I would just walk her back to her sorority and I'd go down the street to
my dorm. It was just a matter of safety and coming out of class after nine o'clock in an urban
environment. And, and that was it. We didn't date or anything. I would just escort her.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
You know, football player escorting pretty sorority girl home. And she's only two blocks from, or three
blocks from where I was staying in the dorm. But the next fall, we were on campus and I met her on
campus, just kind of bumped into each other again, not thinking much of that previous spring. And she
said she had moved outta the sorority house, "come on over." So, <Jackson makes "I don't know"
expression> mm-- you know, I was a little reluctant, you know, uh, blonde blue-eyed. And those days I
wasn't dating blonde, blue-eyed <laughs> gals. So I recruited a couple more football players, Black, to
come over and visit her and her friends, just so it would be-- And uh, son of a gun if the three football
players and her three roommates all left and went to a party! <laughter> So there we were, you know,
and, uh, we studied together and then we got to start getting together on Thursday nights just to study.
My grades shot up <raises hand, laughs>, which was really good. And she was a home ec[onomics]
major, and so she'd experiment with foods with me and being a football player, I could take all the
calories she could pump out, you know. So I'd get an extra meal every day, <laughs> kind of, every
Thursday, when we'd get together. And then finally by the end of that semester, or close to it, I said,
"Are we an item?" You know? And we decided that we were an item. So 1970 rolls around, and we, we
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
decide to get permission from her side of the family. My side of the family reluctantly accepted the
interracial dating, my dad being a Texan, that, that, you know, he had bad memories of that stuff.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And, uh, my mother was, she loved everybody no matter what. But her [Sue's] parents weren't real
happy.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
So the explosion went off and which actually drove us tighter together. We just wanted to date openly.
Um, I often say that we had gone to see the movie, Guess Who's Coming To Dinner with Sidney Poitier...
And, uh <laughs>. And when her parents found out about it, and I suddenly realized I was not Sidney
Poitier. It wasn't gonna work out. But that sort of drove us together. And within, uh, four or five months,
I just asked her to marry me. And, uh, because her family disowned her for the very fact that we'd
gotten-- we were wanting to date.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And they didn't want her to date. And I had never told her I loved her.
Visintainer:
Yeah. Wow.
Jackson:
We just wanted to date openly. And so... We uh, as the, as the, her world crowded in on her to try to
break us up, it forced us together and me to be more defensive of her. And her-- she stood her ground.
And uh, I once told my mother, "Well I don't know what love is, but I know what sacrifice is, and she has
opted to date me," as opposed to a family that-- I mean, she's 21 years-old, you don't just give up your
family. Her family gave up her, you know, and so, and that was just her mother and father by the way,
not cousins or grandparents. Um, uh, and so. Uh, we got married. I asked her at Thanksgiving in 1970,
"Hon, will you marry me?" You know, and she said, "When?" <laughs> I had no idea when <laughs>. I
said, "semester break!" <laughs>.
Jackson:
It was my senior year. She was in grad school. And, uh, so I didn't have a job, but I'd just played my last
football game the previous Saturday. And so the scholarship was gonna run out at the end of, uh, at
graduation. So I was on time, Four years you know, because four years scholarship, you know, and, uh,
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
so, uh... I s--, but I didn't have any rings or anything. So I go, um, but there was one alum, and this is
another reason why I will have to reach back. There was one alum, Paul Barracker, little Jewish guy. He
owned, I thought he only owned one jewelry store. He ended up owning four. But this little guy. And I
told her [Sue], I asked her on Thanksgiving to marry me. And I said -- when we get back, we were visiting
her sister in Sacramento -- "When we get back to San Jose, we'll go to Paul's Jewelers, downtown San
Jose, and we'll get rings." Now, I didn't have a nickel.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
<laughs>. That's the ironic self-confident naive, uh, kid I was, I guess. And so Monday rolls around and
we go down to Paul's, which is just, you could walk off campus, to Paul's-Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And Paul's in the store. It's one of these stores that, you know, straight in downtown, it's jewelry on this
side, jewelry on that side, just walk back to the counter. Very narrow store. Paul's in the back and he
sees me come and I, you know, he was an alum who would come to football practice, sometimes fly to
the games on the same plane as the team. So that's how I knew him.
Visintainer:
Okay.
Jackson:
As this alum who supported football, not as a friend. I mean, he was old enough to be obviously my dad
or, or, or maybe even older than that. And Paul comes running out, I mean, little bitty arms. I could wrap
my hand around his bicep, close my fingers. Right. And he's in a football stance. "Tony so good to see
you!" "Paul, hold it!" He's really enthusiastic.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Old European kind of an accent. And, uh, he-- I said, "Paul, hold it. I want you to meet my fiancé, Sue."
And he said, "Oh, so pleased to meet you, Sue!" Does this double handshake. I'll never forget this. And
then he goes, I said, "Well, what are you doing?" I said, "Paul, I came to buy, uh, our wedding rings and
engagement ring." He says, “Oh, good! Good, good, good!" I said, "But Paul, I don't have any money, so
if you hire me, I'll start to work." He says, "Okay! Okay, okay. You stop bothering me. Go back, talk to my
secretary, fill out the application. You can come to work. Sue, you can buy anything in the store."
<laughs>. So I got, I got a job selling jewelry through <Visintainer laughs>, through grad school, paid for
those rings. I come to find out just a few years ago that Sue gave him a $25 down payment or
something, but she just told me that.
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TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
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Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
But I worked for Paul. He taught me all about sapphires and all the diamonds and his jeweler, the guy
who made some of the jewelry, he would teach me. He was from France. And he would, we had, I'd give
him some English lessons, and now he liked my accent because it was flat.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
You know, it didn't come with a New York or a twang or anything like that, accent. And so we exchanged
a little bit of, he would teach me about clarity and diamonds, and I would clarify some words he didn't
understand. Okay. But I did that for about a year and a half. And I also, uh, coached at a junior college -football -- and realized that I didn't want to be a football coach. But I had finished my master's degree,
started my PhD at UC [University of California] Santa Cruz in history. And just, and I was teaching a class
-- History of Third World Peoples -- as a grad student. And I just said, "Stop." <laughs>, "I gotta, I gotta
get on with life." Sue was a high school teacher.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And so I actually went to work for an insurance company. So time is marching on. In the back of my
mind, I still want to be a military officer. I still, war is going on in Vietnam, and I'm sitting here now, I'm
in the insurance business. I'm making a lot of money. We bought a house in what became Silicon Valley.
I can't even afford that house now. But bought a house. She got tenured. I was making a lot of money in
the insurance business. My boss was really glad that I decided, you know, again, I was offered several
jobs.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
You know, when I finally decided to work, he tried to recruit me right outta college. And my, before I-Right when Sue and I got married, he tried to get me to go to work for him at his insurance company,
and I'd turned it down, but now here I was a year or two later and I was working for him and he was
really good. It was like having somebody, being in a master's degree class, the Michael Anderson Agency
with Penn Mutual Life. And this guy, Mike Anderson, was just a terrific teacher and mentor. And, and so
I got off to fast start under his wing in insurance, and I was the consummate kind of, you know, I'd just
been the captain of the football team, and all that [inaudible]. I'd been in San Jose for five years and all
that stuff. So I knew a lot of people. And so I could contact them.
Visintainer:
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Yeah.
Jackson:
But one day I was with a bunch of clients in, uh, in, uh, Candlestick Park, the old Giants, San Francisco
Giants watching the Giants and Dodgers play in May of 1975. And across the screen, the-- from days on
end, you saw pictures in the news of Marines and soldiers evacuating people from Saigon [now Ho Chi
Minh City, Vietnam] and helicopter, dramatic, people holding onto the rails of helicopters trying to get
out as the North Vietnamese took over the country. And the same thing was happening in Camb-Cambodia, and Phnom Penh. And so, uh, I... And an American ship, the U.S.S Mayaguez had been
captured by the Khmer Rouge, a communist group, and we didn't know where the sailors were from
that ship. And across the screen at the ballgame <Jackson holds hands in front of self and widens them>,
kind of the old ticker tape kind of thing.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
"US Marines, recapture the Mayaguez." Said the thing. And I'm sitting here with hotdogs and beer and
entertaining clients at a game. So the next day I put on my suit and I went to a recruiter. Didn't tell my
wife. He goes, "Hey, you go to college?" And I said, yeah. And he said, "Well, you need to go see the
officer selection offer in Alameda." So I took all my tests, signed up all in one day, came home and told
her <laughs>. I remember the guy, he goes, "Do, you wanna, you want me to come home? I got a great
movie we can show your wife. About what you're about ready to experience." I said, "You don't want
me in my house tonight," <laughter>, "When I tell her what I just did." So I became private Anthony
Jackson for a while before I went off OCS [Officer Candidate School]. But I was twenty-six, I was running
out of time, and these guys were serving overseas, risking their lives. And here I had done nothing to
really validate what I thought. And my idealistic view was to validate my citizenship and ensure that you
could never deny me. As my father did, as my little brother did. So-Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And I still promised my wife it would only be for three years. Said, "Three honey. That's it." I actually got
out and went into the reserves for about a year in keeping that three-year promise, which really, I was
kind of sliding. I didn't realize I was gonna, eh long-- I found that the Marine Corps was my calling.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And even I got out, went to work, another high-paying job. Got, they gave me a brand new car with
Kaiser Aluminum & Chemical, and sent me to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. But I just couldn't believe I'd be
working. Uh, and I, so I joined a reserves unit to stay in touch, and then I realized that I started living for
that reserve weekend.
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TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And not what I was doing with Kaiser and, uh, and money wasn't important to me. And so I asked the
Marine Corps to take me back, and the rest is kind of history at [inaudible] point.
Visintainer:
Had you ever expressed to Sue before you, uh, before you enlisted, that you had this idea?
Jackson:
Yeah, she knew that. She knew that that was kind of in my bones, but I really wanted-- I, in the first
couple years with that flare-up in her family over our marriage, I wanted to make sure we had a solid
marriage.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Before I all of the sudden ran off and left her, you know. I really did. I think that was why I delayed for so
long, uh, was, you know, that was a pretty big sacrifice on her part.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And it was never healed back up. I never, I had never met my-- I met my mother-in-law, but I never did
meet my father-in-law. Although we did have a civil conversation on the phone one time. But that was
the only time I even talked to him. And that was in like 1978. So, um, and then he passed away. As if-- it
was ironic because he and I should have been really good friends. We're, you know, he's a naval officer.
He was a World War II destroyer escort. And he had, he'd graduated from UC Berkeley, their ROTC
program. He was down here in San Diego when Pearl Harbor was attacked, on his reserve duty and
mobilized right away. And they sailed into Pearl Harbor just the week after. You know, he was still
smoldering. Things were still, they were still trying to find guys that were in capsized ships that were still
alive. And, um, and he kept a diary. And, a part of that time, he had great distinguished service during
World War II, became the CO [Commanding Officer] of a ship. He was a junior ensign when Pearl Harbor
happened, but he had his own ship by the time the war ended. And, uh, and then he retired as a Navy-captain in the Navy, in the reserves, started his own business in, uh, he became a plumbing contractor,
not a-- the guy that supplies all the contractors with all their gear. And during the boom years of growth
in the Bay Area and made millions. And of course my wife probably didn't know how many millions he
made, but she was disinherited. And that was, that was, uh, <laughs> her sister got it all when he passed
away. And that's probably how we found out. But, um, and so, yeah. She's, she's tough <laughs>.
Visintainer:
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Yeah.
Jackson:
You know, and, and held her ground and, uh, and it has been a source of strength and you don't really
recognize all those things. She is motivating. She won't take credit, but she has been a prime motivating
factor in my life. Um, uh, I mean she has her own, she has her own opinions, her own thoughts, et
cetera. But, you know, you want to, you want to do well for those who believe in you kind of a deal.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
So you know, I've always wanted, I mean, I've taken great risk at times without thinking about that, but I
think one of the things that's always in the back of my mind is that, you know, I do owe this woman
something <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
You know, so don't screw it up, buddy. <laughter> But that means certainly you have to be a person of
strength, especially if you're in an organization like the Marine Corps. You know, you're not a yes
person. I mean, you can't be a yes person. I mean, you, you, you, you have to gauge when you should
engage and you have to engage when you should just, maybe just shut up, but be willing to take on the
right fights, you know? And sometimes you win 'em, sometimes you lose 'em, but don't back down until
it's time to back down and then have the judgment to know when it's time to back down, you know. So
it's kind of a give and take thing, because sometimes you're the boss and sometimes you're the junior
guy that has to execute the plan.
Visintainer:
And having that judgment, I think is really difficult when you're, uh, so invested in something.
Jackson:
Yeah.
Visintainer:
And I imagine if you're in the Marine Corps and you're in a situation where you need to have that
judgment, you're very invested in it.
Jackson:
Yeah. And, uh, and I've been on those sides of that, you know. I've lost an argument and then had to be
the presenter, you know?
Visintainer:
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
You know, you're the guy that, uh, "Wait a minute! I was the only one in the room that objected." "Yeah.
But you're, you're the communicator." <laughs> "You're gonna communicate it up the chain, right?"
"Wait a minute, I'm-- there were twelve guys that agreed with you, sir." "Yeah, Tony, but you were the
most articulate, you're presenting it! <laughs> Just make sure you win!" <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
"When you present it up the chain, you know?" So I've been on that side of the coin. And, you know,
you-- And the other thing is, I did appreciate the Marine Corps. That the Marine Corps appreciates
strength and not weakness, not, you know, it appreciates the fact that you will pick the right time and
place. You know, you don't want to embarrass the boss, but will you challenge him? And so you have to
have that combination of moral courage and judgment and communication skills to win over when it's
not <laughs>, it may not be a smooth subject. Okay? I think that is both been an asset and may have
cost me a little bit of something at some point, but not nothing that-- I mean, my career exceeded my
expectations. I'm not a Naval Academy guy. I'm not an ROTC guy. I didn't come out as a 21 year-old. I
came in as second oldest guy in my OCS platoon. There was one other army guy that was a former
soldier that was older than me, but I was, I was already as a-- the same age as my first bosses, my first
commanding officers when I was a second lieutenant. And so I was always kind of -- agewise -- I think
that was an edge, actually, that lightened my load because I had a sense of humor and I wasn't afraid of
the process. <laughs> I wasn't afraid of the process. Yeah. Because you had to. Yeah. When you go to
OCS or recruit training, like down here in San Diego, you just have to drop who you are.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
For that twelve weeks. You gotta just drop who you are and accept that you're gonna be a mold. You get
to be who you are once you get out of that process, you know, of them breaking you down and building
you back up. So I think my age was actually a benefit. Because of my body was still, uh, easily willed into
Marine Corps shape. So, yeah. And having a dad who was a sergeant in the army probably helped me a
lot too.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
I already knew how to make a military bed, <laughs> you know, to inspection standards. <laughs> We
did that before we went to Sunday school. We got inspected. You know, it's really funny about not
remembering this as a kid. You're standing in front of your bunk just like I did at OCS, and your dad's
inspecting the shine on your shoes and the crease in your trousers and stuff like that, you know,
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
<laughter>. And here you are, you're ten, you're ten years old, and dad's throwing a quarter on the bed
to see if it bounces. The bed's that tight. The bed has to be tight enough of that coin to bounce up, you
know? So Yeah. We got those inspections on Sundays.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Boys lined up <laughs>. Uh, yeah. But, uh, yeah. So, yeah. So it's been what? Sue and I have been
married, yeah, we just celebrated our 52nd [wedding anniversary], you know-Visintainer:
Congratulations.
Jackson:
Whew. Yeah. That's, uh, it's been, it's been a road. It's been a good road. 'Cause we, you know, we, we,
we have a lot of things. I tell her that the reason why we're a successful marriage is because we have
absolutely nothing in common. <laughs> You know? I'm a hunter and she's a doggone near herbivore.
You know, not quite, but <laughs>, you know, uh, yeah. And we, we, we have a lot of, a lot of
differences, which make it kind of good because she has her leans, and I have my leans, you know?
Visintainer:
Yeah. It gives you space to be your own person and you can come together around commonalities.
Jackson:
Right, right. And so, and then we'll come together for like a trip to the Sierras [Sierra Nevada mountain
range]. Well I'll do fishing, and she'll do her native plant art, her botanical art. She likes to do that. And,
uh, and so it's really kind of interesting. They'll come back at the end of the day, she'll show me her
drawings and I'll show her my one little fish. <laughter> So, yeah. But, uh,
Visintainer:
Excuse me. So, um, so you've had a really long and distinguished career and I don't think we have time
to go through it in like, phase, you know, and, and every phase of it. So I'd like to skip forward just a bit
towards the end of your military career.
Jackson:
Okay.
Visintainer:
And talking about the work that you did, as I understand it, as the commander of, marine camps, Marine
Corps, Installations West.
Jackson:
Right.
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Visintainer:
Um, and so this is a, this is a big deal, right?
Jackson:
This is the culmination of, uh, um, all of my general officer assignments were big deals, I thought. I
mean, they were shocking the amount of responsibility a nation was willing to give a person and this
special trust and confidence that you build up over, you know, twenty-eight, twenty-nine years and they
finally make you a general. Um, so, uh, if you don't mind, I'll talk about the first assignment. I was, uh-here, I was selected for my first star as Brigadier General. And I was given the assignment to be the
Deputy Commanding General for Marine [Corps] Forces Central Command. MARCENT in shorthand. So,
which meant that I was gonna be the deputy for first General [Wallace "Chip"] Gregson, then General
[John F.] Sattler, and then general, I had three generals who became my bosses, general [James N.]
Mattis. Um, so in that capacity, my headquarters, I had two headquarters, one in Tampa, Florida, where
Central Command is, and one in, Bahrain, which is on the Arabian Gulf near Saudi Arabia. And, my main
job was to ensure that commanders and marines in contact on the battlefield had what they need.
You're, you're the link for, the commander needs this, and industry makes it, and your headquarters.
You were the judge on whether: did they really need it? And if they really needed it -- which I always
agreed with the commander on the battlefield, because he knew his needs -- does the industry have it?
And if headquarters is fighting it, tell them to get it, we're buying it. And I had that budget too, and so I
would visit the battlefields and visit the commanders, uh, both Afghanistan and Iraq during that two
year assignment. And they, and, and the-- so being in and out of the battlefield, it was different than
being deployed. I had been deployed to Iraq as a colonel, but as a general, I was in and out. And I would
also do diplomatic stuff in Egypt for the United States military. In Egypt, in Pakistan, and Bahrain and
Oman. And I would go around and visit the military commanders and my peers. And, um, but the most
critical thing I did was teaming up with a scientist named Susie Alderson, who is from right here in
Fallbrook. And we, the battlefield, the commanders were wanting a vehicle that was more durable and
could sustain the improvised explosive device explosions [IEDs]. And we just did not have that. Uh, we
had the vehicle that our, our, our explosive ordinance disposal teams, they had a vehicle called a mine
resistant, ambush protected vehicle, an MRAP. And if they got hit by a mine, it, because these guys went
out into mine fields all the time and diffused them, or blew 'em up or whatever. They had this one
special vehicle that the South Africans had developed that MRAP, but the [US armed] services weren't,
they were sold on the Humvee for some reason. We were taking horrific casualties from these
improvised explosion devices. Taking off arms, legs, killing people. And so when I was in Afghanistan, I
had a United, I visited this United Nations mine clearing team, and they invited me to ride in one of
these South African-built MRAPs as they were gonna clear mines. And here this general, my aide was a
young captain. He did not want to get in that vehicle, but they had kind of like, "come on for the ride,"
okay sort of challenge you.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And I'm in a helmet, flack jacket. I've even got ballistic protection where it really counts <laughs>, you
know, and, uh, so, and these guys were dressed much like you.
Visintainer:
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Yeah.
Jackson:
And so I took-- accepted their ride, and we hit probably seven mines, more?
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
But they were all -- fortunately -- anti-personnel mines. And so we got rattled and we could hear the
shrapnel hitting the sides of the vehicle, but we were okay. But-Visintainer:
What did that feel like when you hit a mine that first time?
Jackson:
Well, this vehicle was pretty solid, right?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
I mean, what it, what it just, it kind of set off alarms and gives you a little adrenaline rush. And it was
kind of like if you'd had, you ever had a rock hit the windshield in front of your car? The way it smacks
that hard.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Yeah. It's like a bunch of those at once. <laughs> Except they're hitting metal, so you-- And I could see
our chase! They gave us a chase vehicle just in case we got stranded out there, you know, vehicle
breakdown. And I could see he was hitting them too. So it wasn't doing any, anybody, any good. The
Soviets had laid a lot of mines and they were just, they were just horrible in Afghanistan, 'cause they put
'em in these farmers' fields so they wouldn't grow, couldn't grow crops. And that's what the UN was
doing there, clearing them as we were fighting Taliban or whoever else.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And so I came home. I had this passion to get this vehicle, and I had, but I wasn't gonna be able to do it.
Generals, the Army had refused, the Marine Corps had refused to get this vehicle. There was a whole, I
didn't realize this fight was going on. I just knew my experience. And I had seen them before. General
Transcribed by
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Gregson had showed me one. And here comes Susie Alderson. She had been in Iraq for a number of
months, and she on her own initiative, she was a scientist assigned to me. And so she had been over
there. Um, mine was a new command, so they had just set up MARCENT to handle the Middle East. And
so I was the first permanent. So here I had this scientist assigned to me, and I hadn't tasked her with
anything mm-hmm. But she had been over there and she did a study on survivability in various vehicles.
So she had all the data laid out, if you're in this kind of, um Humvee you're gonna get killed. If you're in
this kind, ehhh, there's a 80% chance you're gonna get killed. You're gonna get your legs blown off. If
you're in this truck, this-- but if you're in this MRAP that the improvised explosive of the [inaudible]
explosive warning disposal teams, you're most likely only gonna feel concussion. Not a death.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
So I said, "Susie, great! That fits my passion." I called my staff together, put Susie and them together.
Said, "You got ten PowerPoint slides, and we're gonna present this to the three-star [general]. So you
[inaudible] no more than ten, they w-- general officers will fall asleep if you got more than ten
PowerPoint slides. Do not do that." So I left the room and left her to my staff to power-- come up. They
came in a couple hours later, "Sir, this is the brief." And I said, "Perfect." I didn't make a change to it.
Susie and my chief of staff put this, it was beautiful. I called up on a secure VTC [video teleconference]
because my boss was out here at Camp Pendleton, and here I was in Tampa. Got him on a little secure
video of the day and told Susie, "Susie, you're the briefer. The generals have never won this argument,
but you got the right voice." And, so she briefed it and they, General Sattler stopped it, or slide number
seven. Next thing you know, we called up the commandant, okay, he got it in three slides. And I started
buying these vehicles. I mean <laughs>, and I won't bore you with the technical part of it, but Susie's
data got those vehicles in within six or seven months. I mean, I sent her around to all the big vehicle
manufacturers in the US said, it's gotta have this transmission, it's gotta have this drivetrain, it's gotta
have this engine. And these are the three different prototypes that you can build. You know, the John
Deeres of the world that build heavy equipment, they changed assembly lines. They were happy to pitch
in.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And, uh, the first 300 [IED] hits in 2006, no Marine Corps deaths.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
So Susie becomes the mother of the MRAP and gets the highest decoration that a civilian can get in
peace time in the, in the Department of Navy. So that was a big deal. And then as a two, that was as a
one-star, that was one of the best effects as a one. As a two-star. I get assigned as the, uh, we have
these four star commands, combatant commands is what they're called. One for the Pacific, one for
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Europe, one for South America, um, Pacific, European Command, Southern Command... And, we're
gonna develop another one. And it's US Africa Command. And I'm chosen to be the first Director of
Military Operations and Logistics, the J3 and the J4 for that command, headquartered outta Stuttgart,
Germany and our focus would be the continent of Africa and all the associated islands. Minus Egypt.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
We kept Egypt in Central command. And, uh, so, uh, <holds arms wide> it's brand new! There's nothing
there. I mean, we're in rehabbed Army World War II buildings that belonged to the Wehrmacht in 1930.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Its [inaudible] journey. And so we gotta build this new command. And there were two two-stars there
that were, we had a four-star boss, uh, General Walls [William E. Ward] and uh, and the Air Force, his
[Wards's] chief of staff was an Air Force two-star. But I was the Director of Military Operations, which,
you know, is-- I mean, you're just, you're thinking about it for every military event that goes on in the, in
the continent of Africa that the US is involved in, you're gonna be the director and the advisor to the
Joint Chiefs of Staff and the president, the National Security Council, and the President of the United
States.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
You're gonna be the direct guy. And my boss was the kind of guy that, uh, general Ward, when I said
Walls-- General Ward was the kind of guy, he liked to do all the diplomatic high stuff, flying around,
meeting with heads of state and senior military. And he left the operational kind of running of things to
me. Which I liked, but it kind of was, uh, it was interesting. Sometimes I would just wonder, okay, if we
do this one, so probably the most prominent one would be in, um the, the pirates off the coast of Africa,
off of Somalia. And, uh, and we had, and they generally speaking stayed away from US ships. But they
would take these ships. These guys were once fishermen whose fishing industry... I mean the guys who
actually were the pirates, not the businessmen in London and Somalia, the kingpins in Somalia, the
warlords, but the ones who executed, the actual pirates, you know, they would get word from London
who's flagship, what cargo was on it, what the crew was, all that would come out of London. And they'd
filter it into Somalia.
Visintainer:
So there's somebody in London doing research to let them know what's headed their way? Wow.
Jackson:
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Yeah. And so, and they know what insurance company and all this, and these guys had been fishermen,
but the industrial fishing of China or Korea or Japan had just about depleted their waters. So they could
not-- and so you had an understanding from an intelligence standpoint of why there was this piracy,
these guys who could execute it. And they were just the lower end of the whole international cabal. ButVisintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
So, um, but when they captured the Maersk Alabama, uh, which was a U.S. Flagship. <shakes head> No
way. 'Cause we weren't gonna negotiate with those guys. So-Visintainer:
When was this?
Jackson:
This was 2008.
Visintainer:
Okay.
Jackson:
They captured the Maersk Alabama, probably the spring. With a U.S. crew on it. And, uh, so, um... let me
think. Yeah, I think that was under President Bush. Let me think for a second. 2009? Yeah, it was 2009. I
think that was, I think it was actually one of the first decisions that I had to get out of President Obama.
So that had to be 2009. And so it was very early in his term. So it was either late winter or early spring of
2009. And there was one guy, uh, the crew overpowered most of the pirates themselves. Without a gun
fight. But, a shot was fired. One of the pirates was injured. And, uh, three of 'em captured the captain, of
the ship, Captain [Richard] Phillips, and lowered a life boat and got off the ship. They made a movie
outta this.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And, um, and, uh... So now we had, they had a hostage. We had the ship back, but they had an American
hostage. And so myself, um, Admiral [William H.] McRaven was the head of our Joint Special Operations
Command out of Fort Bragg [now Fort Liberty] here. So he had the Navy Seals and all the special ops
guys. But they're, it was Africa's, AFRICOM's territory. My boss's out galivanting. So McRaven and I, we
had the [Navy] Seals put on standby and they started rehearsing. And we had -- it's amazing -- we do
several rehearsals on paper and drills. We had done a rehearsal of this on paper the year before. And so
we kind of knew what the plan would be, you know? We didn't know how it [would] end, the very end
of it, but we knew how we would get the right forces to the point that they could execute a mission. And
then once they were at that point, it was up to them exactly how, but getting them from the States to--
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34
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
so McRaven and I reviewed the plan, called up the, the Joint Chiefs, the Secretary of Defense and the
Chairman [of the Joint Chiefs of Staff], and briefed the plan. And we both agreed that we had a good
plan to get the Navy Seals to be able to get the, the captain back. And we got pretty fast approval from
the president. I think that's what we were all surprised 'cause he's a young senator we were all grizzly
old admirals and generals older than the president, you know? And so we didn't have a lot of confidence
'cause these things are time sensitive, you know?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And, uh, we, you know. You know it ended sadly in one way, because we killed all three of the pirates.
Killed three of 'em. The one guy that survived was wounded when the crew took over. And so he, he was
medevacked to one of our ships prior to... And we, Captain Phillips, we brought him home and it was it.
So that was one, um, of a significant event. But I guess the thing is, is that you're making these life and
death decisions.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
That, you know, I would often tell myself that, "Hey, you have to look yourself in the mirror. And then
when you get to the pearly gates, he's the only one that can pass judgment on your, on your judgment."
You know, because there's been a couple of circumstances where, you know, you've directly impacted
whether or not people have lost their lives or you've taken life. And so, uh, it's-- it's just one of those
things and there's certain people that have to make those hardcore decisions and to think that you're in
that position. And so after two years of doing that, which was a real from the bottom up, creating a
command and all of the, I mean, <laughs> bringing tech, I mean we're, we're talking about copper wires
that were put in by the Germans in the 1930s under Hitler that we're pulling out and pulling fiber optic
cable on. So we're literally building buildings and running this command and making those kinds of
decisions and other decisions which have national significance, you know. And then I was the first
ordered to, or to go to Baghdad [Iraq] to be the chief of staff for our forces in Iraq for General [Raymond
T.] Ordierno. And, but my boss, General Ward, he'd have had to let me go early, but he had, he had
become so, uh, reliant on me -- and it was a new command -- and the Marine Corps promised him a full
two years that he would have me, because they had to convince him to take a Marine. He's an Army
four-star, and they had to convince him to put a Marine in that very position. And he, and he took me,
you know, he probably had some young Army two-star that he would've liked to put in there, but he
took me in on his command. And so when the Marine Corps said, "Hey, if you leave six months early,
you can go back to war." And which from a, from a Marines standpoint, it would've been best for me to
go back to Baghdad.
Visintainer:
Okay.
Jackson:
Transcribed by
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35
2023-06-08
�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
And be the chief of staff for General Ordierno, that would open up more opportunities as a flag officer,
more senior rolls. But to get stationed at Camp Pendleton, my wife's a Californian. It was the alternative.
So when General Ward objected to me leaving six months early, it became, uh, the fallback was the
Marine Corps assigned me to be the Commanding General for Marine Corps Installations, West. MCI
West, which included seven Marine Corps bases out west, to be the senior guy and be stationed in my
wife's hometown in a place where we had owned homes in the past.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Great place for my kids to go to school. And, and so, and my kids had already, I had in 2004... In 2002,
my oldest son graduated from Fallbrook High. He got, we came here in [19]98 and he-- my wife said, "I
don't know where you're gonna be for the next four years, but we're going to be here as the kids go to
one school."
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And so Brian was on his 10th or 11th school then going into the ninth grade. And so I deployed to Japan
in 2002 as a colonel. And then my other son, Blaine was gonna graduate in 2004. And so I went overseas
and the family stayed on base at Camp Pendleton. And then I came back and from the Far East, 'cause I
didn't do the initial march to Baghdad. And I joined the unit at Camp Pendleton and we're ordered back
to Iraq. And the theme went on, "I don't know where you're gonna be, but we're gonna be here." So
Blaine graduated in 2004 from Fallbrook High. He got all his four years at one school. And so they were
already locked in. And the wife, when I went over to Japan, I left her to, uh... She was, had chosen some
land five acres in Fallbrook in 2000. Yeah. 2000. She chose five acres of this <holds hands out, palms
up>. "There's nothing here, honey." She says, "Well, I'm designing a house with an architect." I said,
"Great! <Visintainer laughs>. Then I got ordered overseas <laughs> and left her to build a house. And so
I departed. I came home to help her move in to a house from the base to this house that she designed
with an architect. And she interviewed five or six general contractors and hired one and stayed on the
work site. I was in, doing things for the nation in Japan, Korea, and Philippines. And I came back home
and helped her move in and then came back from a year without family and was here for four or five
months. And we got redeployed the whole, all the, most of the combat Marines at Camp Pendleton
went back to Iraq in the Al Anbar Province. And I was the Plans Officer, kind of responsible for getting all
the beans, band aids, bullets, people over there and married up with their equipment on a timeline, and
then be the last man to <laughs> to, to, arrive. And I remember getting there and sitting in the, getting
down, getting ready to eat a meal as my host was showing me where I was gonna sleep that night and
all that. And we get a bunch of incoming rounds and the whole chow hall emptied out, two of us are
sitting there. And I said, "Well, there's no point in running. You might run into one <laughs>, you might
run into incoming." So we went ahead and finished our meal while the stuff was coming down. You
know, <laughs>, it's random.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Transcribed by
Sean Visintainer
36
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Jackson:
You know?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
It's random. And so, when I got stationed back here, the wife had come to live with me when I, we
finally got to live together. That was, there was that time period from 2002 to 2007 that we never really
lived together.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Because I was in Tampa. She stayed here with the boys, and then they both started college. And, and I
got orders to go overseas to Africa command in Stuttgart. And I said, "Hey, it's your home country.
Would you like to come with me?" So she came over there for the year and a half or so. And the boys
were going to college and doing what college-aged guys do without parents.
Visintainer:
Yep.
Jackson:
To provide any guidance. Jeez. And then, so when I got stationed, uh, the fallback position from not
going over again to Baghdad was here. It was beautiful for family. And I knew that that would be my
twilight, my last tour in the Marine Corps. So from 2009 to late 2011, I got to be the commanding
general for, we have our mountain warfare training center up in Bridgeport, California. We have our
Marine Corps... The real main Marine Corps ground combat center out of 29 Palms [California]. Yuma
has our air station, Yuma Arizona. Miramar [Marine Corps Air Station, in San Diego], Camp Pendleton,
and the Air Station on Camp Pendleton. And Barstow [Marine Corps Logistics Base, Barstow California]
was the seventh one. So you're kind of the, you're kind of the governor is the way I equate it. And each
one of those is a city, or in case of Camp Pendleton, several cities in a county. And so they're, they have
their commanding officer, a colonel. And, so I'm basically the overseer for those to make sure they have
the resources to do their job. And fortunately for me, it was the beginning of the Obama era where the
Economic Recovery Act was, uh, they were looking for projects and the money was there.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
To fund a lot of things. And so new hospital at Camp Pendleton, well, I got that new chow hall, new
barracks, new childcare centers, all that kind of stuff. I was getting billions of dollars during my watch to
build that stuff.
Transcribed by
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37
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And so it was, uh, it was a good time. I've told these young Marines now that, well, it's not gonna be like
that for a while. That was during a war. And the funding was there. We had a happy Congress and they
weren't squabbling over money for the military, but as soon as the wars die down, money to the military
becomes scarce. Um, so, but, uh, so that was a good assignment. I would, I would say that it was, it was
a little bit different than my operational time as a general officer, but we had a lot of impact.
Visintainer:
So this is really interesting. And I think it's, it's kind of interesting how, maybe if I'm, if I'm understanding
you correctly, maybe it wouldn't have been your first choice.
Jackson:
Yeah. It wouldn't have been my first choice as a, yeah-Visintainer:
But in some ways it works out really nicely.
Jackson:
Yeah!
Visintainer:
To be around family-Jackson:
Because I get to be around family. I get to be-- I meet this university again.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
You know, I never, when I, when I left, when I left here in 1986, I mean, there was nothing here. This
was a stinky old chicken farm.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Uh, you know, and, uh, when I come back, your [university] president is Karen Haynes, right?
Visintainer:
Transcribed by
Sean Visintainer
38
2023-06-08
�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And her husband, gentleman Jim Mickelson is on the staff and doing what he's doing with ACE program,
ACE Scholars [Services, a program for foster youth at CSUSM]. And I'm the commanding general over
there. And I'm a guy with war credentials and all that kind of stuff. And, uh, and they invite me over
here. And, uh, and I'm just shocked that, you know, I'd driven by a couple times on 78 and seen the
building there. And, but she [Haynes] invited me to lunch and then her husband drove me around his
little golf cart, you know, to campus, and I'm in uniform. And, you know, California's weird. Southern
California, this uni-- our uniforms are really welcome. But Northern California is not the same place, you
know. Um, and, uh, and I, and so I, she took me over and showed me the nascent Veteran Center that it
was then, not what this is now. And it was kind of really a good experience and to meet Karen and see
her leadership, which I would compare with any general that I'd ever served with or-Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And I've served with some of the best this nation has to offer. And, uh, so, so, um... It's kind of
interesting that I could not develop the relationship at San Jose State. I tried to, I mean of course
distance was an enemy. Yeah. You know, but they kept changing leadership. Even now, I think they're in
search of another president. And that's five or six presidents in, in-- I visited the campus when I was on
active duty, a one-star. And giving presentations, this one doctor there, Dr. Jonathan Ross, he was really
interested. I funded a little books and furniture for their library. He had a military history library set up in
the history department. And so, and I was funding a scholarship and I wasn't get-- there was no
feedback. There was no feedback. Except for Jonathan. He would try, and he still sends me emails every
now and then, but the university was really like... But anyway, I wasn't gonna work when I retired at
first, you know?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Okay. I certainly wasn't gonna be a commuter to San Diego and the freeways just like trying to get here
today. I said, ah, I forgot there's construction. I should have went this way and that way and, uh, but,
um... But, I really hit it off with that, uh, with the leadership that was here, and I retired and I was sitting
around, enjoying trying to be a gardener, thinking about my next trip, doing this and that. And I turned
down several nice jobs, mainly for my wife because she didn't want me to work, and I was, you know,
sixty, about ready to get Social Security, max out Social Security, and then <laughs>, you know, so why
work? And Karen called and said, "Hey, how would you like to be on our foundation board?" And I said,
okay. Man. Was that? <makes gesture like casting a fishing rod> I mean, she hooked me for, she had me
set up. And I thought, hey, yeah. And I was on several boards, and so-- none of 'em paid. And, and I was
gonna stay that way. And I'd bought my RV [recreational vehicle]. That was my retirement gift to myself,
you know, nice. On that Mercedes chassis, looking good, driving down the freeway, camping out, fishing.
And we did enjoy it. We do still have that. So we still enjoy it. And, I got calls from the governor's office.
You know the boards were kind of pretty demanding anyway, and California State Parks was in a
Transcribed by
Sean Visintainer
39
2023-06-08
�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
horrible position. They had money that they couldn't account for. It was mishandled. It wasn't stolen,
thank goodness. Nobody lined their pockets with it, but it was making the headlines and, and, and I
couldn't believe that Parks was so screwed up. <Jackson's phone rings>.
Visintainer:
If you want, I can pause this.
Jackson:
I'll just stop. No, this is.. It's amazing how these people get your number.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
My kids would text, my wife would text, you know, but these people will uh, are clever <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah. So that would've been around 2012 if I-Jackson:
Yeah. That was two thousand, yeah, twelve. Yeah. So, uh, and I'm just, I was in-- I was kind of amazed.
We have no idea what the civilian sector pays for jobs in the military. As a general officer, you're
basically working for nothing.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Because you've, you've maxed out the retirement scale, and because you can retire when you hit 30
years, you get 75% of your base pay. When you, in two and a half years, every year there after, so I was
at 36 and a half years, so you'd imagine that I'm 75%, two and a half years times, and so I was already at
95, 97%, something like that.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
So, you're, you are working because you love what you do.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Transcribed by
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40
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�ANTHONY L. JACKSON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-03-7
Yeah. I mean, you're, you're, you're totally into what you're doing and it takes care of your family and all
that. So I really didn't want to work. There was one job that I might have taken, and that was when the
Chancellor for the UC system asked me if I would like to apply to be the President of CSU Maritime
Academy.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
Up in Vallejo. And that was in the spring, only two months after I had retired from the Marine Corps.
And it was just, it would've just been the wrong time.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
But our, but I did accept the Rockefeller Family Fund. I got to be known for some of the speeches that I
gave, rather, now that I've seen the video, <laughs> rather impassioned speeches about why we go to
war, to a group of engineers and scientists, in particular, this one speech. And I was still in uniform and
giving that speech, and I told them that, I just asked the audience of hundreds. I said, "Why is it that
we're at war in the Middle East?" And you could hear the word oil echo out. You know? And, uh, and,
uh, and I told 'em it was their responsibility to take us off of being dependent so we don't have to send
our men and women overseas to bleed, you know, and I didn't realize they were videoing the damn
thing. And it pops up all over the internet, right. <laughs> So, and my job as MCI West, I mean, this is the
military is a multi-billions of dollar industry in California. And as the commanding general of MCI West,
you had access to the governor and Governor [Arnold] Schwarzenegger when I first got there, Governor
[Jerry] Brown, later, you would meet with them once or twice a year. If there's any issues, like, you
know, there's a state park on Camp Pendleton, it's one of the most profitable parks in the state park
system. So this, it was good. They got the park for a $1 lease of several miles of beach, you know, and
that was gonna come up for negotiation in a couple of years. And Secretary of the Navy wants real
money for it now. It's not just a being a kind person anymore. It's, uh, so you have mutual interests and
the environmental California Clean Air Act and all this kind of stuff and whether or not we can meet our
tanks can meet your emission standards. No. So what's gonna be the offset? Things like that.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
So you're up there negotiating and trying to make them aware. And being a Californian, it also gave me a
little bit, um, adopted Californian anyway, it gave me a little bit different access because I was one of
them sort of. And so when I talked to a senator or to the member of the of the governor's cabinet, it
came out, uh, we had positive discussions. So they knew me in Sacramento. And they knew I had a
green side. And they knew that we were doing all of our green development on our bases. We were
doing a lot. It was funded by the Secretary of the Navy, Secretary [Ray] Mabus and President Obama.
And so, we were being really green. And so I was speaking the language of the Commander In Chief and
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the Secretary of the Navy, being really green, and as my war experience as well made me have pretty
much total buy-in. And my wife's Prius <laughs>. And the fact that she put in, I gave her $30,000 and put
in solar at our house.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
So, you know, all of those things, you know. And so I got a call from the, from the governor's office and
the Secretary of Natural Resources, if I would please consider being the director of California State
Parks. I said, "Oh, man, that sounds so good. I could do my job in my RV." And my wife, who's just a
natural member of, at that time of the Sierra Club and the California Native Plant Society and all that.
This, that's actually a job I'll consider. So I told her about it, and she said, "Well, if that's what you want
to do." Which is her logical, her normal answer too. And so I took that up, I mean, to get the millions of
dollars back in the right place. They had a morale problem. But they're kind of like military people in as
much as, uh, a bunch of really dedicated people that don't get paid much for their dedication. They work
for the state, the state doesn't realize, matter of fact, I'd say in some of the assignments that the park
rangers have, they live more austere than a military family would definitely live. And the state doesn't
recognize that, but they're-- If you're a ranger and you've got a series of parks in Carmel, Monterey, and
those beach parks and stuff like that, and the state can't pay you enough for housing and stuff, things
like that.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And some of the more remote places, it's amazing! Old ranch houses that they'll rehabilitate, you know,
and they learn to love what they're doing. You know, they, they, they do it because they love the great
outdoors. They love people, they love the animals and all of that stuff. And they hear they, "Hey, I want
to give you a pay raise, bring you to Sacramento and put you at my right hand." "Oh, no sir. <Visintainer
laughs> I want to be, I want to be right down here where I am. I don't want to be in Sacramento." Uh,
and they, they, they, there's a very different, uh, they're, they're much like Marines, but they don't have
an up or out sort of ethic or, or, or, or value system. Theirs is, "I'm here. Like, this is my park, these are
my parks, and this is where I want to raise my family, even if it's a twenty-five mile bus ride for my kids
to go to kindergarten." This is, this is in the, I loved them for that. Great people. And, and I think they
were, I don't want to talk too badly of my predecessor, but they needed the kind of leadership that's
taught and admired in the Marine Corps. So getting in my, I literally got my RV, we have a state park on-Border Fields State Park right there at the fence.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Separating Tijuana from us. And we have one all the way on the Oregon border. Arizona border. Nevada
border. And so I just, my wife and I, and I call the office in, um, and I tell my secretary, Lynn Black, I say,
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"Lynn, tomorrow I'm gonna be at Humboldt State Park. You can tell him now." Okay. But I didn't want
her to tell him, you know, a week in adva-- I didn't want him scrambling.
Visintainer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jackson:
You know, I know how it is in the military when you know the general's gonna show up. It might be two
weeks of scrubbing brass, you know, you know, if they got two weeks notice, they have two weeks of
panic. <Visintainer coughs>. If they, if they have twenty-four hours of notice, they only got twenty-four
hours of panic. And you can't fix much that's broken in 24 hours <laughs>. So that was great. I, I did
enjoy that. I did not want a new career though.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
You know, I told the governor I've got two or three years, and not only that, I had grown spoiled, as a
general officer to make critical decisions, life decisions. And you cannot do that. I mean, you're a
political appointee of the governor, right?
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And you gotta be approved by, you know, two-thirds of the state senate. So you had to go through
those hearings and all that, so you could not be totally, you could be what the governor wanted. But
maybe not the governor's staff. The initiative was a little bit frightening. My initiative I think was a little
bit frightening in Sacramento, and I can't stand micromanagers.
Visintainer:
Yeah. How was it frightening?
Jackson:
Uh, say your question again?
Visintainer:
How was it frightening?
Jackson:
Um, who, my initiative? Because I might do something that, uh, that might be really good for parks,
really good for parks' people, but maybe it doesn't suit the governor's budget agenda. It might be too,
you know, and so you did not want, and you didn't want to be that guy that-- but you wanted to do the
right things, and you had to have people that would kind of support you in, in, in, in, uh, that you were
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trying to do the right thing. Now, they could argue, and you might not be able to do it, but I did not feel
that-- the military's incredible in terms of the responsibilities that I was given. And it was based on the
special trust and confidence that I had built up over, you know, thirty years of service. And that, I mean
that is, you're making really important decisions affecting people and maybe tens of thousands of
people. And so to come down from that, it was, was, was not ideal.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And you had to come down from that, uh, you know, uh, your ego. Something had to, had to, had to
back off. That you no longer had that much special trust and confi-- You had some trust and confidence.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
But you didn't have that ultimate special trust <laughs>, you know, because, you know. And, uh, and so
I, I, I, I decided that certainly I didn't wanna spend any more time in that environment than fixing what I
could fix. So got the budget money straight, got it all back, started fixing restrooms, started-- I, you
know, I took it like it was a military operation: to develop a campaign plan, publish it to everybody. To
everybody. Put it on the, on the website so every employee could read it.
Visintainer:
And at some point-Jackson:
I, you know, I set up a, it still goes, they dropped me off the mailing list. My wife is still on the mailing
list, but it's an email newsletter goes out every Friday. It's the same thing the Marine Corps does. I still
get 'em from the, from the... from the Chief of Naval Operations. And I get a daily report of what's
important. And then from the Marine Corps, every Friday I get one. You know, so that when I'm
communicating as a member of a community, I'm talking from some firsthand knowledge. Not all of it, I
don't, I'm not nothing secret, all open source stuff that we can communicate when we're out in our
communities. As a flag officer, you still have certain responsibilities.
Visintainer:
Sure.
Jackson:
That, uh, uh, so yeah. So the civilian world's a little bit different, you know, and it was kind of... I think
you have to, you have to adapt to it though, it's not gonna adapt to you. And so I, you know, after about
two years, I kind of said, okay, and things are relatively stable here, for you. And, I would, I'm gonna step
down and I was like I'm, I was just ready not to, and my wife one day, she goes, I was, I was commuting
back and forth.
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Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
So I would like fly home on Friday night and maybe Thursday night sometimes, and then I'd fly out
Sunday night back to Sacramento or early Monday morning. And, you know, and that-- one day she
looks at me and she says, "This is just like you're deployed." <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
You know <laughter>. So I knew it was about time to put in the hat. Those two things came together,
that deployment remark. And I was like, challenged whether or not I did, I wanted to give up the idea of
that special trust and confidence that I had grown so used to as a military officer.
Visintainer:
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
Jackson:
Mm-hmm. So.
Visintainer:
I had a couple questions about Camp Pendleton I wanted to ask you.
Jackson:
Sure.
Visintainer:
One was, I was, I was curious about the base's relationship with the surrounding North County
community and how that changed, how you've seen that change over time, if it has, maybe it hasn't?
Jackson:
Actually. Um, you know when Oceanside [California] was like shootouts at the O.K .Corral, not
shootouts, but get drunk, go to a strip club, that kind of thing. In the seventies, it was, it was pretty,
pretty harsh. And 'cause the Marine Corps was, it was, it was-- those were tough times for the Marine
Corps and the city and the development. You didn't have the growth boom that's occurred over the last
forty to fifty years for sure. But, I think it's really good relationship with the, with the uh, with the
community. With the colleges, community colleges. I think this is a great relationship that Cal State San
Marcos has with the military community in San Diego, writ large. And I think that Camp Pendleton... I
think, I think the region knows that like 65% of the Marine Corps' combat power is here <waves hand in
circular motion> and you can add on the Yuma Air Station with it, is here, this is the main war-fighting
engine, and you got similar but smaller in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina and forward deployed in
Okinawa, Japan. But they're smaller and they have different wartime commitments. This is the heavy
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punch. And these bases, both the airspace, the sea space and the ground space for training are
unmatched in the world. So you have the finest <waves hand in circular motion>, this geographic area,
just, just what God put here makes it that way, you know, and you can have every just about climatic
condition within MCI West, with the exception of a tropical jungle, you know. From the Sierras and our
cold weather arctic training to the desert, to mountains and all this kind of stuff, the beaches. And, I
mean, it's incredible training. And that's why Camp Pendleton, you know, was initially, what do they call
it when the city comes in and takes your property? They took Camp Pendleton-Visintainer:
Eminent domain?
Jackson:
Eminent domain. That's how it was. You know, here's $4 million, you're out of here. The O'Neill family,
and they're the ones that developed San Clemente and all that region up north of San Clemente, you
know, big developers, they're still here. The O'Neil family still, part of it's still here. But that eighteen
miles of coastline, the number of military and military families associated with it. That, and the Navy, I
think this is, we generate billions, like thirty-six billion dollars annually. And then in the state of
California, it's over fifty-six billion dollars. So-Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Just about one in every eleven or twelve defense dollars comes to California.
Visintainer:
Wow. <Jackson laughs>, that's significant <Jackson laughs>.
Jackson:
Yeah. I mean, you considered there's 50 states <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And they pay taxes too <laughs>.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
So, um, I mean, Vista, the mayors, the, and the, and the San Clemente and, and Oceanside and San
Marcos, they show up at events. They're invitees. They're on the invitation list to events. <laughs> The
old mayor of Oceanside, he used to be quite a character, but he was kind of losing it a little bit, and he's
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a really nice guy and he's had some strokes and stuff like that, but he'd still show up, you know? To
things. And so I think that both from an economic development standpoint, and I think Camp Pendleton
also felt that during my time there, that we were really helping San Diego, San Diego County, and the
local communities with our investments that were given through the Economic Recovery Act. We were
employing the citizens out there. It's a, you know, it's a kind of a domino effect on money spent from
the military community here. So I think there's a really good relationship between the military. And I,
and I, and, and I appreciate it because I don't think every community in California, although I'm on the
governor's military council, and so I get to visit-- matter of fact, we have a meeting in another week or
two. I better look at my calendar up at Vandenberg Air Force Base. But we meet all over the state where
there's military communities, and we try to tie the, one of the things we try to do is tie the communities
with the military base around them, and a lot of, and the communities have embraced that to the
benefit of both. Because if you have a, um, a water problem or a waste management problem on your
base, well, that's part of the community's problem too, because you're probably locked into the system.
If you're trying to do renewable energies on the base, that's probably the community's issue too.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
If the schools aren't properly funded in the communities around the base, then you're, it's probably the
base people are gonna be concerned. The military families are gonna be concerned, and they're not
gonna want to go there if the schools aren't good schools. And so, I mean, we did a, around both Camp
Pendleton, the Fallbrook Union School, elementary school district, and around Edwards Air Force Base,
north of Los Angeles, they were both schools that are impacted by the military but weren't, were
slipping in terms of, oh, quality of education, quality of facilities, and getting instructors. And some of
these places are hardcore. And so the military worked with them to get matching funding in both of
those school districts to, to rebuild schools, to hire teachers and things like that, that affects quality of
life for military families as well as, you know, the community writ large. So it behooves the communities
to, uh, to be kind of tied in with the bases, and it behooves the bases to be tied in. And so the
commanders normally really recognize that and are accepted in the community. I have had one negative
experience. It was actually, I was at [employed at] state parks and I was asked to be the commencement
speaker at my high school in Oakland. It's kind of nice. I'm a retired general coming, and then I got a
phone call from them, saying the principal wanted to make sure that I would not wear my uniform to
the [ceremony]. Now I've been retired for, probably couldn't fit in my uniform and he should have
thought of that. "Don't wear your uniform," basically.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And I'm going, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, wait a minute." The high school principal's asking a guy who
spent thirty-six and a half years in this uniform, that he doesn't want him to wear it. Now, first of all, I
wouldn't have thought of wearing my uniform to, uh, you know, if it's a military event... No, I still
wouldn't have worn a uniform <laughs>. Get a new tuxedo. I mean, you're in ship, tip-shop shape when
you're in there. You know, you're <makes gesture indicating slim>, you know. I think I've grown a little
bit rotund since those days, right. <laughs> Gently so <laughter>. But, uh, and so that uniform is fitted to
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you, you know? And so I wouldn't have dreamed of it. But he, it was such an insult. I said, unless they
withdraw that I'm not gonna speak. And so I didn't speak at my high school. And that was after
retirement, and it was a totally unnecessary thing. But that's the difference. I mean, you'll run into that
at the, at northern, you know. You know, I remember days going to watch the students riot at Berkeley
and all that, but that.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
That was an attitude out of a principal in Oakland and my old alma mater. So, uh, and that's the only
negative that, but I thought that was uh, and I just told him, I said, "Well, I can't come." I said, because
it, it's like you're dishonoring-Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
You want me to deny I am a general.
Visintainer:
That's a huge part of your, your existence-Jackson:
When you, you know, as I remember Commandant General James Conway going, no matter what,
gentlemen-- all the generals in the Marine Corps get together once a year, and those who aren't forward
deployed anyway, and he says, "I don't want you all worrying about whether you're a one-star, two-star,
three-star, whatever. You're all just going to be generals and when they put it on your tombstone, that's
what everybody will remember." They don't remember if you're, whatever, general, general, Lieutenant
General.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
And so I thought that was good advice for, you know, and, uh, yeah. But yeah, it's kind of an interesting,
well, let me show you one thing here. <laughs> I brought this because my wife told me to bring it, but
she's my smartest counselor. <Visintainer laughs>. She does these really cool, she doesn't do like family
albums, right?
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Transcribed by
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She tells the family story in this, in these, so you can-Visintainer:
Can I [inaudible]? <Visintainer moves camera to show album sitting in Jackson's lap>.
Jackson:
She does these drawings. Yeah. Yeah. So all the drawings you see in this, she does, there's an old oak
tree down by the Santa Margarita River and it's been chopped and it's been burned, and the top's been
blown off in high winds, but it's just resilient, you know? So she says, that's kind of the story of your
family-Visintainer:
Uh-huh.
Jackson:
Resilience, <laughs> you know, and so, uh... So you'll see these different drawings, and then she'll go
through and then she's found, it's kind of hard; we know that on my mother's side, this is my dad's, I
mean, you can see how thin [the family tree is], when you're descendants of slaves, you don't
necessarily get all the way back on the African descendants' side.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
Very far. And this is my dad's little genealogical tree. And then this is my mother's. And what's
interesting is from my mother's side, and this is where my dad lied on his draft card and said his parents
were deceased <laughs>. And, so that's my dad as a like 16 year-old. I said, he looks like older than that,
and this is him at the Korean War, and this is kind of his story. And then when I said he is a boxer, now
this is my dad, when I was a senior in high school. Do you think I'd ever mess with my dad <laughter>?
Visintainer:
No you can definitely he was a, he was a prize fighter.
Jackson:
But he never lifted weights.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
And this is a newspaper article when he was-- about why he chose to stay [inaudible]. He was a rated
heavyweight fighter, but he chose to stick with the Army. And in this article there, they asked him why.
And he just said it was more secure. But I only saw him in person fight one time. And he knocked the guy
out with a, and this is his father and his mother. And yeah, that's my oldest sister and grandmother and
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my dad's sister. But there's, now it goes over to my mother's side, and this is my mother as a girl. And
this is all seven, there's very few pictures of all seven of my brothers and sisters. And this is like third
grade Tony right there with his finger in his mouth.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And this is <laughs>. And this is us in Oakland. This is in Texas. And this is all seven of the kids.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
Uh, my dad's funeral, I think that's what <laughs> got us back together. But my family goes back to the
original pioneers on my mother's side of, founding, they were with Brigham Young's party. And, um, and
this tells the story, and one of the three people were with Brigham Young that were slaves. And my
great-great-great grandfather [Green Flake] was a slave to, that was with that original Mormon party.
And so he becomes a founder. That's my great-grandmother. There's a couple of pictures in here that
are kind of neat. But Green Flake, that's him, was a slave.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
That came with the original. This tells the story of the original Mormon party that he was with. And he
was, he was a scout. And um, and he-- and um, a road builder. And he drove Brigham Young's wagon. So
when Brigham Young ends up in Salt Lake, the guy who he says, "This is the place," is my great-greatgreat grandfather, Green Flake. Now this is kind of a, this is my, this is Green Flake's daughter, my greatgreat-grandmother. This is my great-grandmother. This is that same great-grandmother with my
grandmother, with my mother, with my older sister. Now, the curious thing is: so far the oldest of each
generation is a woman, right?
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
And then now down here, this is a picture with my grandmother, <points> her; my mother, her; my
sister, her right there; her daughter Lonnie, the first of that generation, and her daughter.
Visintainer:
Wow. <laughter>.
Jackson:
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So for seven consecutive generations, it's all girls.
Visintainer:
That's amazing.
Jackson:
And then finally she broke the mold. She now has a son, which is the first of that generation. And this is
another curious thing. This is my great-great grandfather, one of them. And he's Mexican. And he
changed his name to George Stevens.
Visintainer:
Okay.
Jackson:
<laughs> It doesn't show up much in my DNA, less than 1%. So my family has always had this knowledge.
And then my wife got really into it. And then, and Green Flake-- This is a statue of Brigham Young, which
is in downtown Salt Lake City, if you've ever been there.
Visintainer:
I've never been.
Jackson:
And in it, they list all of the original pioneers. And then down in a corner it has the three slaves, and
which includes my great-great-great grandfather, Green Flake, you know. And, um, so he becomes the
oldest living member of the original Mormon pioneers. Of the original ones. And so he's at the Jubilee,
the 50th anniversary, he gets invited back from his farm in Idaho to be an honored guest as the oldest
living.
Visintainer:
Wow.
Jackson:
And so, and here this lady stands up, this is from the Salt Lake Union Tribune of 1903 or something like
that when he's there. And [the lady] asked him what it's like to be a slave. And so we actually have in
quotes from the Tribune what it was like. 'Cause he was born in 1828. So, so that was kind of curious.
And so where they did make a marker at a park, Pioneer Park. This marker was there, and somebody
tore it down years ago. And I took my sons to see it with my mother, and this is his tombstone, which is
kind of cool.
Visintainer:
Mm-hmm.
Jackson:
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And, uh, so somebody tore this down, and then, so this-- It was amazing, this summer, last summer past,
they finally-- that's my family reunion, right? This picture right here, that's my sister and aunt. They
finally built this thing. Look how small they look. Over a 10-foot statue of Green Flake now is in the, the
historic park, um, Heritage Park of Salt Lake City, Utah.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
He's got this oversized statue of Green is finally made the, besides the footnote. But anyway, that was
just in July I think they commemorated that statue. So that's part of what gives Jackson strength.
Visintainer:
Yes.
Jackson:
You know, is knowing that you have a, you know, a big history with this.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Are we over time?
Visintainer:
Uh, we-- we we're actually almost out of [camera] battery strength. <Jackson laughs> We've talked for a
while, so I think it's as good a place of any is to end the interview. I actually have so many more
questions for you, but-Jackson:
That's all right.
Visintainer:
We'll run out of, we're run out of battery so-Jackson:
That's okay. It was fun to talk.
Visintainer:
It is a real pleasure to have you-Jackson:
Be hoarse the rest of the day.
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Visintainer:
Yeah. <Jackson laughs> It's a pleasure to have you visit us and-Jackson:
Yeah, well thanks for inviting me to recall some good things and, you know.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
There were no real flashbacks, you know?
Visintainer:
Yep.
Jackson:
It can happen though. Every now and then, you know.
Visintainer:
Yeah.
Jackson:
Oh man.
Visintainer:
Well, thank you again.
Jackson:
Okay. Hopefully that was-Visintainer:
I'm gonna go ahead and end the interview.
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�
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Jackson, Anthony. Interview transcript. March 7, 2023.
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Major General Anthony L. Jackson retired from the United States Marine Corps on January 1st, 2012, after more than thirty-six years of service. After retiring form the Marine Corps, he served as the Director, California State Parks and Recreation from November 2012 through June, 2014. Major General Jackson has also served as the Chairman of the California State University, San Marcos, Foundation Board of Directors.
In his interview, Jackson discusses his upbringing in a military family, including participating in a sit-in in a local drug store, and offers a comparison between his military service and that of his father, who served in the United States army. Jackson discusses life on military bases and support systems for deployed soldiers. Jackson recounts the courtship of his future wife, Sue, their early relationship, and the experience of being in an interracial relationship in the 1970s. Jackson discusses his later career with the Marines, including serving as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT, where he helped make the case for the military to purchase Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs) during the second Iraq war, and working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, AFRICOM. Jackson also discusses finishing his military career by returning to Camp Pendleton and other western U.S. bases as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West).
Jackson finishes his interview discussing his time working for California State Parks, his relationship with Cal State San Marcos, and his family lineage, which includes the enslaved wagon driver Green Flash, who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City.
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Anthony Jackson
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Sean Visintainer
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2023-03-07
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California State University San Marcos
Camp Pendleton (Calif.)
Civil rights demonstrations
Iraq War, 2003-2011
Military families
Mormon Church
Piracy -- Indian Ocean
Racism
United States. Africa Command.
United States. Marine Corps
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Houston (Tex.)
Indian Ocean
Iraq
Oakland (Calif.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
Stuttgart (Germany)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Anthony Jackson
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Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found.
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Text
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SC027-32
Activists and activism
Black experience
Community history
Veteran experience
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Oral Histories
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Oral History
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Tanis Brown
Interviewee
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Sharon Jenkins
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JenkinsSharon_BrownTanis_2023-02-02_access.xml
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5.4 Jenkins, Sharon. Interview, February 2, 2023 SC027-32 0:34:26 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos Local government -- California -- San Marcos Public administration -- California -- San Marcos School boards -- California -- San Marcos Sharon Jenkins Tanis Brown mp4 JenkinsSharon_BrownTanis_2023-02-02_access.mp4 1:|18(10)|47(8)|69(7)|85(1)|96(5)|114(2)|124(6)|156(2)|167(1)|176(13)|199(9)|222(2)|231(9)|245(8)|253(6)|267(7)|276(7)|285(6)|296(3)|306(11)|318(1)|329(6)|342(11)|351(16)|370(4)|379(10)|391(11)|405(8)|418(11)|428(1)|438(5)|448(14)|473(5)|483(2) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2fbd5c479eb53fc879b7df28dcab0e80.mp4 Other video English 0 Childhood/ Moving to San Marcos, CA Sharon Jenkins briefly discusses her early childhood in Massachusetts before moving to San Marcos, CA. She grew up in Quincy, MA as a young child before her family moved to Scituate, MA. Her family lived in Scituate until 1971, when they purchased a home in Lake San Marcos. Jenkins explains that her father was a pilot and commuted to Los Angeles, CA for work. Jenkins was a high school freshman when they first arrived to San Marcos and she attended San Marcos High School. She explains that San Marcos High School was only ten years old at the time, and was a small school in the 1970s. She estimates that only two hundred students were in her graduating class. Jenkins also recalls making life-long friends in high school. High school ; Lake San Marcos (Calif.) ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Quincy (Mass.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos High School ; School ; Scituate (Mass.) ; Small community ; Small town ; Students 256 The community of San Marcos, CA Sharon Jenkins describes the new community of San Marcos during the 1970s. As a new student, her teachers encouraged her parents to sign her up for sports teams and other activities, which is how Jenkins became more active in the San Marcos community. She describes feeling connected to the community by socializing with friends at Friday night football games. Jenkins also explains that playing golf was a popular activity in Lake San Marcos. Football games ; Golfl ; High school ; Lake San Marcos (Calif.) ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos High School ; School ; Small community ; Small town ; Students ; Tennis 480 College education Sharon Jenkins recounts her busy life as a college student. After graduating from San Marcos High School, she enrolled in Palomar College and then transferred to San Diego State University (SDSU). Jenkins majored in business and administration in college. Jenkins also worked throughout her college career, working part-time while attending Palomar College, and then working full-time after transferring to SDSU. She explains that she took night classes when attending SDSU, and she would be fortunate if she made it from San Marcos to SDSU within a thirty-minute commute. She explains that her commutes were usually a much more difficult drive due to the San Diego traffic—even during the 1970s. Business and administration ; Commute ; Commuting ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Palomar College ; San Diego freeways ; San Diego State Univeristy ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Students ; Traffic 700 Career in accounting and real estate Sharon Jenkins describes her career in accounting and real estate. She explains that she began working at an accounting firm part-time the summer after her junior year in high school, and continued working at the firm throughout her education at Palomar College. Jenkins then accepted an internship at IBM in San Diego and worked there for a year while in college, before accepting a full-time position at the company. She stayed at IBM until the early 1990s before leaving the position and becoming a homemaker. Jenkins explains that she later transitioned to the field of real estate after her second daughter graduated from high school. At the time of the interview’s recording, Jenkins has worked in real estate for seventeen years. Accounting ; Accounting firms ; Homemaker ; IBM ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Parenthood ; Real estate ; Realtor ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) 966 Involvement in the San Marcos school board Sharon Jenkins recounts her involvement in the local school district of San Marcos. She first became involved in the local parent groups, parent organizations, and the 1996 School Board Bond effort, which she co-chaired with two other individuals. She then joined the school board, and was an active member from 1998 to 2012. Jenkins also reflects on how she has seen the San Marcos school district change over the years. When she first joined the school board, eight to ten thousand students were enrolled in the district, and at the time of the interview’s recording, she explains that approximately twenty thousand are now enrolled. She also explains that the school board also has to tackle many issues, such as financial issues due to the lack of state funding. Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; School ; School board ; School bonds ; School district ; Small community ; Small town ; State funding ; Students 1239 Reflections on being in leadership Sharon Jenkins reflects on being in a leadership position. She explains that she enjoys working with her colleagues on the school board and its staff. She continues that San Marcos is has a great staff and the school board has its best intentions in mind for its students. She also found the opening of new schools and high school graduations to be a very memorable experiences while in the position. Decision making in leadership ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; School ; School board ; Small community ; Small town ; Staff ; Students 1374 Joining the city council Sharon Jenkins discusses her campaign to join the city council in 2012 and the lessons she learned on the campaign trail. She also discusses the differences between working on the city council and in the school district. She notes that the school district was more complex and dealt with a plethora of issues when compared with the city council. She also explains that the school district and city council both had different needs to which needed attending. City council ; City council campaign ; City council election ; City council representative ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos city council ; School board ; School district ; Small community ; Small town ; Students 1628 The value of the city council for the community Sharon Jenkins reflects on the city council’s value to the community of San Marcos. She explains that the city council does its best to listen to its residents and push for local control. She expresses frustration over state and federal government asserting themselves into local governmental matters. Jenkins is also passionate about continuing efforts to fix and expand infrastructure in the city. Bridges ; City council ; City council representative ; Federal government ; Funding ; Infrastructure ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Roads ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos city council ; Small community ; Small town ; State government ; Traffic 1813 Final thoughts/Closing of interview Sharon Jenkins concludes the interview by discussing the importance of reaching out to others, whether that being staying in contact with friends in the community or reaching out to individuals in other districts and listening to them and responding to their questions. City council ; City council representative ; Colleagues ; Family ; Friends ; Leadership ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Representation in small districts ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Small community ; Small town ; Staying connected Oral history Sharon Jenkins was born in Quincy, Massachusetts, grew up in Scituate, Mass., and moved to Lake San Marcos, California in 1971 where she attended San Marcos High School. She was a business major in college ; after college she worked in the accounting profession for 15 years. Her involvement as a parent volunteer led her to run for San Marcos City School Board where Jenkins served for 14 years. Jenkins was elected to San Marcos City Council in 2012 and will complete her final term in 2024. She is also a Realtor. The interview focuses primarily on her high school years and her experiences serving on San Marcos' School Board and City Council. Tanis Brown: Okay. So, today is February 2nd, 2023, and this is a part of the North County Oral History Initiative. My name is Tanis Brown, and today I will be interviewing Sharon Jenkins. So, hi Sharon. Thanks very much for coming in today. You and I have been friends for a long time, but there are some things about you that I don' ; t really know. So, I' ; d like to find out a little bit more about your San Marcos story. Sharon Jenkins: Right. Thanks for having me, Tanis. This--I' ; m excited you' ; re doing this. Brown: Good. Well, I' ; d like to start from the beginning. Where were you born, Sharon? Jenkins: I was born in Quincy, Massachusetts-- Brown: Oh my gosh. Jenkins: --and I moved from Quincy when I was very young. I don' ; t even know how young, less than five. And I moved to Scituate, Massachusetts. And I lived there until 1971, when we moved to San Marcos. Brown: Okay. So, you came to San Marcos in 1971, and would you still have been going to school at that time? Jenkins: So, yes. I started San Marcos High School in 1971 as a freshman. Brown: Okay. And the school was just ten years old at that time, so-- Jenkins: Yes. Brown: --it was a new school. Jenkins: Yes, very small. Brown: How many students in the--in the graduating class, Sharon? Jenkins: So, I don' ; t remember the number. I would guess maybe less than two hundred. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: I know when we graduated, we could sit on the visitor' ; s side of the bleachers in the old gym. Brown: (chuckles) Jenkins: So, that' ; s how small we were. Brown: Okay. Did you have a football team and everything, and-- Jenkins: We had a football team, yes, yes. Brown: All right. So, any changes between the east coast and coming to the west coast? Jenkins: I think I was so young that I probably didn' ; t understand what those changes were. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: Um, I remembered it--I remembered feeling like it was very, um, --things were very scattered here, and--and not very busy. Brown: Oh, compared to the east coast. Jenkins: Right, right. Brown: Interesting. Um, so other than changing coasts, do you have any other childhood memories that stick out in your mind that maybe you carry forward today, or any traits about yourself? Jenkins: I would say, as far as high school and that era, um, making--making friends that some of them I still have as friends today. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: San Marcos was very small back then. So, um, there was a lot of people connected and, even though we' ; re much larger today, a lot of those connections are still in place. When I moved here there were, I believe, less than 10,000 people in San Marcos. Brown: Wow. That' ; s so cool. And you actually moved to Lake San Marcos when you first came here? Jenkins: Yes, I did. I moved to Lake San Marcos. Um, that' ; s where my parents purchased a house. And my dad was a pilot and commuted to L.A. when he needed to fly. And, um, he decided on Lake San Marcos because he felt that it was such a great, safe community. And he had a friend in Escondido who told him that San Marcos had a new high school and had a very good reputation. So, that' ; s another reason why he--he picked San Marcos. Brown: Okay. Oh, that' ; s interesting. So, Lake San Marcos was kind of an entity unto itself when it was first constructed and was highly touted as a--a kind of upscale community. Did you--did you notice any of that growing up in terms of--of students or residents of San Marcos? Did you always feel yourself a part of the community of San Marcos? Jenkins: Yes, always. So, when I moved there, as I look back, I think there were less than five children living in Lake San Marcos, because it was a retirement community back then. And most of the homes that are there today were not there. It was m--majority was empty lots that homes hadn' ; t been constructed yet-- Brown: Okay Jenkins: --um, along the streets. (nods her head) Brown: Okay. Jenkins: So, I think the big thing I noticed, um, was very few--in fact, I don' ; t eve--I think I only knew one or two--other kids that lived there, but always felt it was a part of San Marcos to me. (nods her head again) Brown: Okay. That' ; s great. Okay. So, just in terms of the overall community of San Marcos back in 1971 and during your high school years, wha--what were the big deals? What was--what was the city like at that time for you growing up? Jenkins: Um, I was--since I was new to the community--I didn' ; t have some of the connections that many of the other kids had that had been through school from however young. Um, so I think some of the connections were um, um, you know, as you made friends, hanging out with those friends, I remember a teacher encouraged my mom, " ; Get her involved in something." ; And I think I was on the tennis team for a year. (chuckles) Um, never play tennis. But the whole thing was, you know, the staff at that time was to get kids involved in--in things. Um, Friday night football was a big deal back then and um, um, just hanging out with whatever friends you had. Brown: Mm-hmm. So, in the community, though, did your parents get involved in the community? Were they involved in Kiwanis and Rotary and that kind of thing? Jenkins: No. Brown: Were those organizations available at that time, or-- Jenkins: I don' ; t know. I s--assume so. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: No. They were involved in playing golf. (laughs) Brown: Okay. Okay. And that was a big thing in Lake San Marcos-- Jenkins: Yes! Brown: --to play golf. They had, what, an executive course? Jenkins: I don' ; t think they had the executive course then. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: But they did have the big course, and I' ; m sure that was one of the reasons why my dad selected there, too, because they both played golf. Brown: All right. Jenkins: And I played golf too. My dad taught me--started to teach me, um, when I was about nine. And, um--and so I would go out and play. There was a couple of people--a couple kids at that time, and another gal and I would go out and play periodically. Brown: Okay. So, today San Marcos is fairly well-known for its colleges. We have Palomar Community College and Cal State San Marcos. After graduating from high school, did--did you--you might not of even had those opportunities, although Palomar, I think, was here at that point in time. Where--what did you do after high school, after graduating from high school? Jenkins: So, I graduated from high school and went to Palomar College because it had such a great reputation back then as it does now. I went to Palomar, and then, um, transferred to San Diego State. But it was right around the time--actually, I think that I was going on campus to San Diego, and then as I got closer to finishing--it took me much longer than two years, because I worked. But, as I got closer to finishing, they started to have some remote classes in North County, and I think a couple of classes I went to--one was in the--a middle school in Vista, on a Saturday, I think, and another one was in, um, a business class from an--off of Furniture Row. So, San Diego--so, Cal State San Marcos wasn' ; t here, but they had started to expand some opportunities for the No--North County kids. So, it wasn' ; t a lot of classes, but it was just enough that you could take a couple and not have to commute to San Diego. Brown: All right. Great. So, you finished up at--at San Diego State, and did you have a vocation or an avocation in mind, um, while you were going to college? Jenkins: Business. Brown: Business. Jenkins: Yes. I focused on business administration and accounting at the time. Brown: Okay. And you said you were--you worked your way through college? You were working while you were going to college. Jenkins: I worked while I went to college. I ended up, um--after I left Palomar--I always worked part-time. After I left Palomar, I think I might have started to work full-time and then I took classes at night, and would commute down to San Diego State at night, a couple of nights a week. Brown: Oh. So, you had a busy life, even back then. Jenkins: Yes. Brown: (laughs) Wow, that' ; s great. So, commuting to school--what was driving to San Diego State from San Marcos like? What--how--what was the timeframe? Jenkins: So, I always thought it was a good, um, a good travel time if I could do it in about thirty minutes. (both of them chuckle) Most of the time it was more than that. But it depended, you know. If it was a class that ended at nine o' ; clock, then you could pretty much get home within thirty minutes or so. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: But there definitely were times of the day when it was more difficult to get there, even back then! That would have been in the, um, let' ; s see, probably the late seventies. Brown: Okay. Jenkins: So. And the freeways weren' ; t as big as they are today. Brown: Right. Jenkins: But we didn' ; t have as many cars back then. Brown: Okay. So, then after graduation did you look for employment in, locally, or interested in going someplace else? Jenkins: So, while I was in high school, my first job during high school after my sophomore year was working at Taco Bell in Escondido. And then--um, and then I started my junior year and then I was an aide for one of the high school counselors and he had a neighbor who had a business in Escondido. And he said, " ; Sharon, you--this--my neighbor is looking for some work. Why don' ; t you go see if they could--if, you know--apply for a job there." ; And that was the summer after my junior year. So, I worked the summer after my junior year at the company, and then when my senior year started, I was only going half-day. And so, I would go to high school in the morning, and then I would go work in the afternoon. And then I graduated mid-year my senior year. So, I was able to start Palomar and I still worked part-time for the company. And then, while I was going to Palomar, I just continued to work part-time and plan my classes accordingly. So, when I finished college, I conti--started full-time with the company. In fact, I probably started full-time before a graduated from college and finished college at night. I think that' ; s how it went. Brown: Wow. So, you were a working woman early on. Jenkins: Very early. Brown: Yeah. And did you stay in the accounting field for a long time? Jenkins: Yes. Most of my work there was office type work, accounting related work. And then I worked there for about ten years, and then I applied for, while I was in college, I applied for a internship, I guess you will, at IBM in San Diego. And so, I was hired to work part-time. I don' ; t know what it was called exactly, but similar to a internship. And then I worked a year doing that. And then--and then after that year, I started full-time there and I stayed there, um, for probably early 90s. And then--and then I quit so I could stay home with my kids. Brown: All right. Wow. Okay. So, when I first met you, you were involved in real estate. How did that transition happen? Jenkins: So, I think we actually met earlier than that, when Allan and I were on the school board together. Brown: Oh, okay. Jenkins: Okay? Um, and, um, so I--I stayed home with my kids. Did different part-time things. Volunteered a lot in the schools. That' ; s how I met Allan and eventually you. And then as my la--my second daughter was about to graduate from high school, I thought well what am I going to do now? And so then a friend said, " ; Why don' ; t you think about becoming a realtor?" ; And I never gave it a thought. But, I said, " ; Okay, well, I' ; ll check into that." ; And so, I did that and it--it' ; s a way to help people which is what I like to do. And so, it has worked out well. So, I' ; ve been doing that for, mm, probably close to seventeen years. Brown: All right. That' ; s great. Well, you segued right into the kind of second theme of my interview questions and that is your very long career in local government, starting with the school district. And so, my question to you about that is, um, you know, what--what--what inspired you to get involved beyond the local parent organization in the school district here in San Marcos? Jenkins: So, I think being involved in--in the local parent groups actually was my segue into the next part. Because I was involved in different parent organizations. I was involved in the 1996 School Board Bond effort. I co-chaired that with two other people. And then after that, once you volunteer for something, as Dennis well knows, (they both chuckle) you are encouraged to volunteer for more. And one day somebody caught me in one of the school parking lots and said, " ; Have you ever running for the school board?" ; which I said, " ; I' ; ve--No." ; And then, so then finally in 1998, Lucy Gross who was a school board member for a long time which even Allan knew well, was leaving the board and she--and she also approached me and said, " ; You know, you should think about this because of the involvement with the schools." ; And so--so I was on the school board from 1998 until 2012. Brown: Wow. So, during that time, how much did the school district change in those years? Jenkins: I would say dramatically, more so towards the last half than the beginning. But San Marcos was growing considerably then. I want to say, when I first started, there might have been--I don' ; t know--maybe eight, maybe ten thousand students. I' ; d have to go back and look at that. And now there are cl--close to, you know, approximately twenty [thousand]. So, it was a very growth intensified time, a lot of schools being built, always financial troubles from--due to state funding. But somehow, we got it all done. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And I think during the last, um--you know, during the last five years or so, my term there is just, I think, when dramatic things change. It was always interesting. I was told, and I--I didn' ; t realize this until--until later, but I was told that, um, at different times of an organization, there' ; s different priorities. And sometimes it' ; s a--it' ; s a school building cycle. Sometimes it' ; s a curriculum cycle that you' ; re working to overcome. Sometimes it' ; s a financial cycle that you' ; re working to overcome. And, um, and so as I look back, I realize when I first got on, it was a growth cycle. So, it was building. And then later it became more curriculum focused cycle. All--always--always focused on curriculum, but you--you pick and choose things to make things happen sooner than later. And so, looking back, I--I--I now see what that very intelligent person meant. Brown: So, what was your favorite thing about--or a couple of your favorite things--about being in a leadership position for a school district? Jenkins: I would say my colleagues on the school board and staff. I think--you know, we' ; re supposed to have the vision at a--at a high level, figure out what those goals are. And then it' ; s the staff that makes it happen. And I think San Marcos--both on a school district and city-wide too--has always had great staff. I think we were lucky. And we had school board members that kept their focus on the kids and what was best for the kids. We couldn' ; t always get there as quickly as we wanted, but eventually we would get there. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: I think also the staff and the--the other electeds, but also, um, some of the things that I--I find the most memorable to me are buildings, seeing the new schools open. High school graduations are always great because, you know, it' ; s a huge success for the kids and the--and the staff, to get them to where they were that day. And also, I think the--the two school bonds that we worked on over the years. Those were--that brought such change to the community, both of those. And--and as an elected official, sometimes it' ; s difficult when you have to make really difficult decisions. But it' ; s also gratifying when you--when you realize, okay, I made the right decision. It' ; s difficult, but I made the right decision. Brown: And you come out on the--on the other end of it feeling really positive. Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brown: Yeah. That' ; s good. So, from the school board, then you put your name in to be a city council representative and that comes with a whole ' ; nother group of--of learning curves and--and, uh, opportunities and challenges. So, any differences between the s--what you were dealing with on the school board versus the city council? Jenkins: I would say, um, a couple differences. The--the school district had, probably when I started, maybe, I don' ; t know, maybe not even a thousand employees and less than ten schools. Whereas I think the school district is more complex with a lot of the issues they have to deal with. I think the city is--just has a smaller scale to it. And the needs are--you' ; re looking at different needs than what the school district is looking at. You know, we have, say, two hundred and some employees and many facilities. But those facilities are, in my mind, are less complicated than a school facility. Brown: Oh. Interesting. Wow. So, what was the first year you were elected to the city council? Jenkins: 2012. Brown: So, 2012. So, there was no break between the school district and moving right into city council. Jenkins: No. I was mid-term-- Brown: Okay. Jenkins: --in 2012. So, I had two years into my four-year term. And there was a sitting councilmember who wasn' ; t running. And so, again, I had a--a couple people approach me and say, " ; You know, you should think about this." ; And I said, " ; I know nothing about any of that." ; I said, " ; I haven' ; t been on the planning commission. How do I learn all that." ; (both of them chuckle) And so about maybe--maybe about a year, maybe s--not quite six months before the election, I started to talk to as many people as I could to see, you know, what their thoughts were. We, at that point, had lost redevelopment money to the state. The state clawed back, I think it was twenty-some million dollars of redevelopment money, and I had a couple people say, " ; Why would you even want to go into that because, you know, there' ; s a huge situation going on here." ; But I just decided that, after talking to a number of people, that I felt I had good support, and I thought, you know, I can--I can learn this. I can do this. I had a lot of people that said, you know, " ; Come back and talk to me whenever you need to." ; And so, I did it. Brown: Yeah. Were the--was the campaigning different between the school board and the city council? Jenkins: Um, not--not drastically back then. To me it was citywide and to me the school board at that point in time was also citywide. So, I had--I think I had some name recognition with the parents and then because of being involved in different things in the district, then that--I think that gave me a leg up. Brown: Mm-hmm. Okay. Jenkins: So, it' ; s about--yeah, I would say, at that point in time, it was about the same. Brown: Okay. So, another continuing growth effort in our city over the time that you have been serving on the city council. So, I' ; d like to ask you--in that time that you' ; ve been on which is like ten years going on a few more years--so, um, looking back on that last ten years, what are you--I mean--wha--what do you see as the most value that--that the city council and you, yourself, have been involved in for the--for the community? Jenkins: Um, I would say doing our best to listen to all residents. We can' ; t always do what residents want us to do. That can be a little frustrating because they don' ; t realize--al--some of what we do is out of our control. We really push for local control here in San Marcos so that we make our own decisions. But more and more state, mainly, and federal is--is telling us we have to do things differently. Or we have to adhere to certain things. And, you know, sometimes we may feel like that' ; s not the best thing for our community, but we don' ; t have a choice. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: Or we' ; d be sued. Brown: So, if you had a magic wand today, is there anything in San Marcos that you would change or--or improve that would make a huge difference or, uh, for our future? Jenkins: I can' ; t think of anything right now off the top of my head. Um, I would like to see us, um--traffic is always a big concern in San Marcos. So, I would say we have continuing efforts to work on that. It' ; s not necessarily all about expanding roads. Some of it' ; s infrastructure and--and--and other things. So, I would say, um, just trying to keep working through what we can in that area and we' ; re working on it. We' ; re spending lots of money on it. I can' ; t think of anything particular. We' ; re--I' ; m excited to have the bridges done in a few months. That has been something that was talked about long before I got on the council. So, I think that would be a--a big plus to the community to get that traffic flow. Brown: That' ; s great. So, Sharon, I would like to kind of conclude this interview with giving you an opportunity to just--if there' ; s anything we haven' ; t covered. I--I do have one more question that I kind of have been thinking about in terms of my-- Knowing you for so many years, one of the things that I appreciate so much about you is your continually willingness and outreach to all the people that you' ; ve known for so long, which is, I' ; m sure, a growing number every year. How do you--how do you continue to keep in contact with this growing number of friends and colleagues that you have grown over the course of your time here in San Marcos? Jenkins: Um, let' ; s see. I don' ; t know. How do any of us do that? I think you just make an effort to--to get together with people and have meet-ups and, um, see them at different events. I try to, when things are going on within the city, I try to email people that I know would have an interest in that. And almost always I get emails back saying, " ; Wow. You know, we really appreciate that, because we don' ; t--we don' ; t have access to that. And so, we' ; re glad to hear about something." ; Just, you know, again just doing your best to try to reach out to people. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And--and see them when you can. Brown: Uh-huh. Well, I certainly think that makes you a very effective leader in our community in terms of keeping in t--touch with the way people feel. And I appreciate it. Jenkins: Thank you. I think another thing that' ; s important too is, um, as things have changed in the recent years, I think it is important for--for future councils and--and to understand that even though we' ; re in voting districts, I think it' ; s important that we represent all of San Marcos. Brown: Yeah. Jenkins: Um, I' ; m in a particular district but I reach out to people in other districts all the time. Listening is the best thing we can do. Brown: Mm-hmm. Jenkins: And responding to questions. Brown: Yeah. So, in closing, is there anything else you' ; d like to share with us that we haven' ; t covered today, but you' ; d like our audience to hear. Jenkins: Let' ; s see. I would say that I' ; m just very pleased that I' ; ve been able to live in one town for so long. Growing up I, you know, you always think, " ; Oh, I just want to get out of here." ; But I' ; m glad that I' ; ve--I' ; ve been here as long as I have. I' ; m glad my daughters--one lives here. Her--her two children are going to San Marcos schools. In fact, one of them is going to Discovery Elementary and I was one of the founding PTO board members of that. So, that' ; s kind of fun to go back and see that school. And then my other daughter' ; s nearby in San Diego. So, I think being able to see them enjoy what' ; s going on here in North County--that, things that, you know, I enjoyed growing up. And they' ; re now realizing that--that it' ; s a good place. Brown: Absolutely. Jenkins: Yeah. Brown: All right. Jenkins: Thank you for having me. Brown: Well, thank you very much for your time today and this concludes our interview for the North County Oral History Initiative. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Title
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Jenkins, Sharon. Interview, February 2, 2023
Description
An account of the resource
Sharon Jenkins was born in Quincy, Massachusetts, grew up in Scituate, Mass., and moved to Lake San Marcos, California in 1971 where she attended San Marcos High School. She was a business major in college; after college she worked in the accounting profession for 15 years. Her involvement as a parent volunteer led her to run for San Marcos City School Board where Jenkins served for 14 years. Jenkins was elected to San Marcos City Council in 2012 and will complete her final term in 2024. She is also a Realtor. The interview focuses primarily on her high school years and her experiences serving on San Marcos' School Board and City Council.
Identifier
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SC027-33
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Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos
Local government -- California -- San Marcos
Public administration -- California -- San Marcos
School boards -- California -- San Marcos
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2023-02-02
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video
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Sharon Jenkins
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Tanis Brown
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San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Sharon Jenkins
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Moving image
Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Politics and governance
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/747be3f849be63b46622662e44e0c283.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
Transcript
Tanis Brown: Okay. So, today is February 2nd, 2023, and this is a part of the North County Oral
History Initiative. My name is Tanis Brown, and today I will be interviewing Sharon Jenkins. So,
hi Sharon. Thanks very much for coming in today. You and I have been friends for a long time,
but there are some things about you that I don’t really know. So, I’d like to find out a little bit
more about your San Marcos story.
Sharon Jenkins: Right. Thanks for having me, Tanis. This—I’m excited you’re doing this.
Brown: Good. Well, I’d like to start from the beginning. Where were you born, Sharon?
Jenkins: I was born in Quincy, Massachusetts—
Brown: Oh my gosh.
Jenkins: —and I moved from Quincy when I was very young. I don’t even know how young,
less than five. And I moved to Scituate, Massachusetts. And I lived there until 1971, when we
moved to San Marcos.
Brown: Okay. So, you came to San Marcos in 1971, and would you still have been going to
school at that time?
Jenkins: So, yes. I started San Marcos High School in 1971 as a freshman.
Brown: Okay. And the school was just ten years old at that time, so—
Jenkins: Yes.
Brown: —it was a new school.
Jenkins: Yes, very small.
Brown: How many students in the–in the graduating class, Sharon?
Jenkins: So, I don’t remember the number. I would guess maybe less than two hundred.
Brown: Mm-hmm.
Jenkins: I know when we graduated, we could sit on the visitor’s side of the bleachers in the old
gym.
Brown: (chuckles)
Jenkins: So, that’s how small we were.
Brown: Okay. Did you have a football team and everything, and—
Jenkins: We had a football team, yes, yes.
Brown: All right. So, any changes between the east coast and coming to the west coast?
Jenkins: I think I was so young that I probably didn’t understand what those changes were.
�Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: Um, I remembered it–I remembered feeling like it was very, um, —things were very
scattered here, and–and not very busy.
Brown: Oh, compared to the east coast.
Jenkins: Right, right.
Brown: Interesting. Um, so other than changing coasts, do you have any other childhood
memories that stick out in your mind that maybe you carry forward today, or any traits about
yourself?
Jenkins: I would say, as far as high school and that era, um, making–making friends that some of
them I still have as friends today.
Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: San Marcos was very small back then. So, um, there was a lot of people connected and,
even though we’re much larger today, a lot of those connections are still in place. When I moved
here there were, I believe, less than 10,000 people in San Marcos.
Brown: Wow. That’s so cool. And you actually moved to Lake San Marcos when you first came
here?
Jenkins: Yes, I did. I moved to Lake San Marcos. Um, that’s where my parents purchased a
house. And my dad was a pilot and commuted to L.A. when he needed to fly. And, um, he
decided on Lake San Marcos because he felt that it was such a great, safe community. And he
had a friend in Escondido who told him that San Marcos had a new high school and had a very
good reputation. So, that’s another reason why he–he picked San Marcos.
Brown: Okay. Oh, that’s interesting. So, Lake San Marcos was kind of an entity unto itself when
it was first constructed and was highly touted as a–a kind of upscale community. Did you–did
you notice any of that growing up in terms of–of students or residents of San Marcos? Did you
always feel yourself a part of the community of San Marcos?
Jenkins: Yes, always. So, when I moved there, as I look back, I think there were less than five
children living in Lake San Marcos, because it was a retirement community back then. And most
of the homes that are there today were not there. It was m–majority was empty lots that homes
hadn’t been constructed yet—
Brown: Okay
Jenkins: —um, along the streets. (nods her head)
Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: So, I think the big thing I noticed, um, was very few—in fact, I don’t eve–I think I only
knew one or two—other kids that lived there, but always felt it was a part of San Marcos to me.
(nods her head again)
�Brown: Okay. That’s great. Okay. So, just in terms of the overall community of San Marcos back
in 1971 and during your high school years, wha–what were the big deals? What was–what was
the city like at that time for you growing up?
Jenkins: Um, I was—since I was new to the community—I didn’t have some of the connections
that many of the other kids had that had been through school from however young. Um, so I
think some of the connections were um, um, you know, as you made friends, hanging out with
those friends, I remember a teacher encouraged my mom, “Get her involved in something.” And
I think I was on the tennis team for a year. (chuckles) Um, never play tennis. But the whole thing
was, you know, the staff at that time was to get kids involved in–in things. Um, Friday night
football was a big deal back then and um, um, just hanging out with whatever friends you had.
Brown: Mm-hmm. So, in the community, though, did your parents get involved in the
community? Were they involved in Kiwanis and Rotary and that kind of thing?
Jenkins: No.
Brown: Were those organizations available at that time, or—
Jenkins: I don’t know. I s–assume so.
Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: No. They were involved in playing golf. (laughs)
Brown: Okay. Okay. And that was a big thing in Lake San Marcos—
Jenkins: Yes!
Brown: —to play golf. They had, what, an executive course?
Jenkins: I don’t think they had the executive course then.
Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: But they did have the big course, and I’m sure that was one of the reasons why my dad
selected there, too, because they both played golf.
Brown: All right.
Jenkins: And I played golf too. My dad taught me–started to teach me, um, when I was about
nine. And, um–and so I would go out and play. There was a couple of people–a couple kids at
that time, and another gal and I would go out and play periodically.
Brown: Okay. So, today San Marcos is fairly well-known for its colleges. We have Palomar
Community College and Cal State San Marcos. After graduating from high school, did–did
you—you might not of even had those opportunities, although Palomar, I think, was here at that
point in time. Where–what did you do after high school, after graduating from high school?
Jenkins: So, I graduated from high school and went to Palomar College because it had such a
great reputation back then as it does now. I went to Palomar, and then, um, transferred to San
Diego State. But it was right around the time—actually, I think that I was going on campus to
�San Diego, and then as I got closer to finishing—it took me much longer than two years, because
I worked. But, as I got closer to finishing, they started to have some remote classes in North
County, and I think a couple of classes I went to—one was in the–a middle school in Vista, on a
Saturday, I think, and another one was in, um, a business class from an—off of Furniture Row.
So, San Diego—so, Cal State San Marcos wasn’t here, but they had started to expand some
opportunities for the No–North County kids. So, it wasn’t a lot of classes, but it was just enough
that you could take a couple and not have to commute to San Diego.
Brown: All right. Great. So, you finished up at–at San Diego State, and did you have a vocation
or an avocation in mind, um, while you were going to college?
Jenkins: Business.
Brown: Business.
Jenkins: Yes. I focused on business administration and accounting at the time.
Brown: Okay. And you said you were–you worked your way through college? You were
working while you were going to college.
Jenkins: I worked while I went to college. I ended up, um—after I left Palomar—I always
worked part-time. After I left Palomar, I think I might have started to work full-time and then I
took classes at night, and would commute down to San Diego State at night, a couple of nights a
week.
Brown: Oh. So, you had a busy life, even back then.
Jenkins: Yes.
Brown: (laughs) Wow, that’s great. So, commuting to school—what was driving to San Diego
State from San Marcos like? What–how–what was the timeframe?
Jenkins: So, I always thought it was a good, um, a good travel time if I could do it in about thirty
minutes. (both of them chuckle) Most of the time it was more than that. But it depended, you
know. If it was a class that ended at nine o’clock, then you could pretty much get home within
thirty minutes or so.
Brown: Mm-hmm.
Jenkins: But there definitely were times of the day when it was more difficult to get there, even
back then! That would have been in the, um, let’s see, probably the late seventies.
Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: So. And the freeways weren’t as big as they are today.
Brown: Right.
Jenkins: But we didn’t have as many cars back then.
Brown: Okay. So, then after graduation did you look for employment in, locally, or interested in
going someplace else?
�Jenkins: So, while I was in high school, my first job during high school after my sophomore year
was working at Taco Bell in Escondido. And then–um, and then I started my junior year and then
I was an aide for one of the high school counselors and he had a neighbor who had a business in
Escondido. And he said, “Sharon, you–this–my neighbor is looking for some work. Why don’t
you go see if they could–if, you know–apply for a job there.” And that was the summer after my
junior year. So, I worked the summer after my junior year at the company, and then when my
senior year started, I was only going half-day. And so, I would go to high school in the morning,
and then I would go work in the afternoon. And then I graduated mid-year my senior year. So, I
was able to start Palomar and I still worked part-time for the company. And then, while I was
going to Palomar, I just continued to work part-time and plan my classes accordingly. So, when I
finished college, I conti–started full-time with the company. In fact, I probably started full-time
before a graduated from college and finished college at night. I think that’s how it went.
Brown: Wow. So, you were a working woman early on.
Jenkins: Very early.
Brown: Yeah. And did you stay in the accounting field for a long time?
Jenkins: Yes. Most of my work there was office type work, accounting related work. And then I
worked there for about ten years, and then I applied for, while I was in college, I applied for a
internship, I guess you will, at IBM in San Diego. And so, I was hired to work part-time. I don’t
know what it was called exactly, but similar to a internship. And then I worked a year doing that.
And then–and then after that year, I started full-time there and I stayed there, um, for probably
early 90s. And then–and then I quit so I could stay home with my kids.
Brown: All right. Wow. Okay. So, when I first met you, you were involved in real estate. How
did that transition happen?
Jenkins: So, I think we actually met earlier than that, when Allan and I were on the school board
together.
Brown: Oh, okay.
Jenkins: Okay? Um, and, um, so I–I stayed home with my kids. Did different part-time things.
Volunteered a lot in the schools. That’s how I met Allan and eventually you. And then as my la–
my second daughter was about to graduate from high school, I thought well what am I going to
do now? And so then a friend said, “Why don’t you think about becoming a realtor?” And I
never gave it a thought. But, I said, “Okay, well, I’ll check into that.” And so, I did that and it–
it’s a way to help people which is what I like to do. And so, it has worked out well. So, I’ve been
doing that for, mm, probably close to seventeen years.
Brown: All right. That’s great. Well, you segued right into the kind of second theme of my
interview questions and that is your very long career in local government, starting with the
school district. And so, my question to you about that is, um, you know, what–what–what
inspired you to get involved beyond the local parent organization in the school district here in
San Marcos?
�Jenkins: So, I think being involved in–in the local parent groups actually was my segue into the
next part. Because I was involved in different parent organizations. I was involved in the 1996
School Board Bond effort. I co-chaired that with two other people. And then after that, once you
volunteer for something, as Dennis well knows, (they both chuckle) you are encouraged to
volunteer for more. And one day somebody caught me in one of the school parking lots and said,
“Have you ever running for the school board?” which I said, “I’ve—No.” And then, so then
finally in 1998, Lucy Gross who was a school board member for a long time which even Allan
knew well, was leaving the board and she–and she also approached me and said, “You know,
you should think about this because of the involvement with the schools.” And so–so I was on
the school board from 1998 until 2012.
Brown: Wow. So, during that time, how much did the school district change in those years?
Jenkins: I would say dramatically, more so towards the last half than the beginning. But San
Marcos was growing considerably then. I want to say, when I first started, there might have
been—I don’t know—maybe eight, maybe ten thousand students. I’d have to go back and look at
that. And now there are cl–close to, you know, approximately twenty [thousand]. So, it was a
very growth intensified time, a lot of schools being built, always financial troubles from–due to
state funding. But somehow, we got it all done.
Brown: Mm-hmm.
Jenkins: And I think during the last, um–you know, during the last five years or so, my term
there is just, I think, when dramatic things change. It was always interesting. I was told, and I–I
didn’t realize this until–until later, but I was told that, um, at different times of an organization,
there’s different priorities. And sometimes it’s a–it’s a school building cycle. Sometimes it’s a
curriculum cycle that you’re working to overcome. Sometimes it’s a financial cycle that you’re
working to overcome. And, um, and so as I look back, I realize when I first got on, it was a
growth cycle. So, it was building. And then later it became more curriculum focused cycle. All–
always–always focused on curriculum, but you–you pick and choose things to make things
happen sooner than later. And so, looking back, I–I–I now see what that very intelligent person
meant.
Brown: So, what was your favorite thing about—or a couple of your favorite things—about
being in a leadership position for a school district?
Jenkins: I would say my colleagues on the school board and staff. I think—you know, we’re
supposed to have the vision at a–at a high level, figure out what those goals are. And then it’s the
staff that makes it happen. And I think San Marcos—both on a school district and city-wide
too—has always had great staff. I think we were lucky. And we had school board members that
kept their focus on the kids and what was best for the kids. We couldn’t always get there as
quickly as we wanted, but eventually we would get there.
Brown: Yeah.
Jenkins: I think also the staff and the–the other electeds, but also, um, some of the things that I–I
find the most memorable to me are buildings, seeing the new schools open. High school
graduations are always great because, you know, it’s a huge success for the kids and the–and the
�staff, to get them to where they were that day. And also, I think the–the two school bonds that we
worked on over the years. Those were—that brought such change to the community, both of
those. And–and as an elected official, sometimes it’s difficult when you have to make really
difficult decisions. But it’s also gratifying when you–when you realize, okay, I made the right
decision. It's difficult, but I made the right decision.
Brown: And you come out on the–on the other end of it feeling really positive.
Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Brown: Yeah. That’s good. So, from the school board, then you put your name in to be a city
council representative and that comes with a whole ‘nother group of–of learning curves and–and,
uh, opportunities and challenges. So, any differences between the s–what you were dealing with
on the school board versus the city council?
Jenkins: I would say, um, a couple differences. The–the school district had, probably when I
started, maybe, I don’t know, maybe not even a thousand employees and less than ten schools.
Whereas I think the school district is more complex with a lot of the issues they have to deal
with. I think the city is–just has a smaller scale to it. And the needs are—you’re looking at
different needs than what the school district is looking at. You know, we have, say, two hundred
and some employees and many facilities. But those facilities are, in my mind, are less
complicated than a school facility.
Brown: Oh. Interesting. Wow. So, what was the first year you were elected to the city council?
Jenkins: 2012.
Brown: So, 2012. So, there was no break between the school district and moving right into city
council.
Jenkins: No. I was mid-term—
Brown: Okay.
Jenkins: —in 2012. So, I had two years into my four-year term. And there was a sitting
councilmember who wasn’t running. And so, again, I had a–a couple people approach me and
say, “You know, you should think about this.” And I said, “I know nothing about any of that.” I
said, “I haven’t been on the planning commission. How do I learn all that.” (both of them
chuckle) And so about maybe–maybe about a year, maybe s–not quite six months before the
election, I started to talk to as many people as I could to see, you know, what their thoughts
were. We, at that point, had lost redevelopment money to the state. The state clawed back, I think
it was twenty-some million dollars of redevelopment money, and I had a couple people say,
“Why would you even want to go into that because, you know, there’s a huge situation going on
here.” But I just decided that, after talking to a number of people, that I felt I had good support,
and I thought, you know, I can–I can learn this. I can do this. I had a lot of people that said, you
know, “Come back and talk to me whenever you need to.” And so, I did it.
Brown: Yeah. Were the–was the campaigning different between the school board and the city
council?
�Jenkins: Um, not–not drastically back then. To me it was citywide and to me the school board at
that point in time was also citywide. So, I had–I think I had some name recognition with the
parents and then because of being involved in different things in the district, then that–I think
that gave me a leg up.
Brown: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Jenkins: So, it’s about—yeah, I would say, at that point in time, it was about the same.
Brown: Okay. So, another continuing growth effort in our city over the time that you have been
serving on the city council. So, I’d like to ask you—in that time that you’ve been on which is
like ten years going on a few more years—so, um, looking back on that last ten years, what are
you—I mean—wha–what do you see as the most value that–that the city council and you,
yourself, have been involved in for the–for the community?
Jenkins: Um, I would say doing our best to listen to all residents. We can’t always do what
residents want us to do. That can be a little frustrating because they don’t realize–al–some of
what we do is out of our control. We really push for local control here in San Marcos so that we
make our own decisions. But more and more state, mainly, and federal is–is telling us we have to
do things differently. Or we have to adhere to certain things. And, you know, sometimes we may
feel like that’s not the best thing for our community, but we don’t have a choice.
Brown: Yeah.
Jenkins: Or we’d be sued.
Brown: So, if you had a magic wand today, is there anything in San Marcos that you would
change or–or improve that would make a huge difference or, uh, for our future?
Jenkins: I can’t think of anything right now off the top of my head. Um, I would like to see us,
um—traffic is always a big concern in San Marcos. So, I would say we have continuing efforts
to work on that. It’s not necessarily all about expanding roads. Some of it’s infrastructure and–
and–and other things. So, I would say, um, just trying to keep working through what we can in
that area and we’re working on it. We’re spending lots of money on it. I can’t think of anything
particular. We’re–I’m excited to have the bridges done in a few months. That has been
something that was talked about long before I got on the council. So, I think that would be a–a
big plus to the community to get that traffic flow.
Brown: That’s great. So, Sharon, I would like to kind of conclude this interview with giving you
an opportunity to just—if there’s anything we haven’t covered. I–I do have one more question
that I kind of have been thinking about in terms of my— Knowing you for so many years, one of
the things that I appreciate so much about you is your continually willingness and outreach to all
the people that you’ve known for so long, which is, I’m sure, a growing number every year. How
do you–how do you continue to keep in contact with this growing number of friends and
colleagues that you have grown over the course of your time here in San Marcos?
Jenkins: Um, let’s see. I don’t know. How do any of us do that? I think you just make an effort
to–to get together with people and have meet-ups and, um, see them at different events. I try to,
when things are going on within the city, I try to email people that I know would have an interest
�in that. And almost always I get emails back saying, “Wow. You know, we really appreciate that,
because we don’t–we don’t have access to that. And so, we’re glad to hear about something.”
Just, you know, again just doing your best to try to reach out to people.
Brown: Mm-hmm.
Jenkins: And–and see them when you can.
Brown: Uh-huh. Well, I certainly think that makes you a very effective leader in our community
in terms of keeping in t–touch with the way people feel. And I appreciate it.
Jenkins: Thank you. I think another thing that’s important too is, um, as things have changed in
the recent years, I think it is important for–for future councils and–and to understand that even
though we’re in voting districts, I think it’s important that we represent all of San Marcos.
Brown: Yeah.
Jenkins: Um, I’m in a particular district but I reach out to people in other districts all the time.
Listening is the best thing we can do.
Brown: Mm-hmm.
Jenkins: And responding to questions.
Brown: Yeah. So, in closing, is there anything else you’d like to share with us that we haven’t
covered today, but you’d like our audience to hear.
Jenkins: Let’s see. I would say that I’m just very pleased that I’ve been able to live in one town
for so long. Growing up I, you know, you always think, “Oh, I just want to get out of here.” But
I’m glad that I’ve–I’ve been here as long as I have. I’m glad my daughters—one lives here. Her–
her two children are going to San Marcos schools. In fact, one of them is going to Discovery
Elementary and I was one of the founding PTO board members of that. So, that’s kind of fun to
go back and see that school. And then my other daughter’s nearby in San Diego. So, I think
being able to see them enjoy what’s going on here in North County—that, things that, you know,
I enjoyed growing up. And they’re now realizing that–that it’s a good place.
Brown: Absolutely.
Jenkins: Yeah.
Brown: All right.
Jenkins: Thank you for having me.
Brown: Well, thank you very much for your time today and this concludes our interview for the
North County Oral History Initiative.
�
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Jenkins, Sharon. Interview transcript. February 2, 2023
Description
An account of the resource
Sharon Jenkins was born in Quincy, Massachusetts, grew up in Scituate, Mass., and moved to Lake San Marcos, California in 1971 where she attended San Marcos High School. She was a business major in college; after college she worked in the accounting profession for 15 years. Her involvement as a parent volunteer led her to run for San Marcos City School Board where Jenkins served for 14 years. Jenkins was elected to San Marcos City Council in 2012 and will complete her final term in 2024. She is also a Realtor. The interview focuses primarily on her high school years and her experiences serving on San Marcos' School Board and City Council.
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Sharon Jenkins
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Tanis Brown
Melissa Martin
Date
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2023-02-02
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Development and growth -- California -- San Marcos
Local government -- California -- San Marcos
Public administration -- California -- San Marcos
School boards -- California -- San Marcos
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San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a>
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Sharon Jenkins
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Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found.
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Text
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SC027-033
Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Politics and governance
Women's experience